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From the New York Times news section:
Citigroup Discriminated Against Armenian Americans, Regulator Says
The bank agreed to pay nearly $26 million to settle claims that its employees denied an immigrant community in Southern California fair access to its credit cards.
By Emily Flitter
Nov. 8, 2023Citigroup employees labeled a group of roughly 80,000 Armenian Americans living near Los Angeles — the largest Armenian community outside Yerevan, the Armenian capital — as “bad guys” and secretly denied them fair access to the bank’s credit card products, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau said in a statement on Wednesday.
The bank has agreed to pay $25.9 million to settle a case brought by the consumer bureau under the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, the federal law that prohibits banks from discriminating against people based on a host of qualities, including race, national origin and religion. Of the total, $1.4 million will go to the victims of Citigroup’s discriminatory practices, the regulator said. The other $24.5 million is a penalty for the bank’s misconduct.
“Citi stereotyped Armenians as prone to crime and fraud,” Rohit Chopra, the director of the consumer bureau, said in a news conference on Wednesday. “In reality, Citi illegally fabricated documents to cover up its discrimination.”
… According to the regulator, Citi employees pegged the community, in Glendale, Calif., as a group whose members were likely to rack up huge debts and then flee the country. They warned new hires not to give credit card applicants with Armenian-sounding last names that ended in “ian” or “yan” the same rates that other customers received, and in some cases urged them to reject these applicants altogether.
I’d be interested in knowing what the fraud and flee-abroad rates are for people with names ending in “ian” vs. “yan,” but of course an NYT reporter doesn’t want to know. Mark Krikorian says old-time Armenian-Americans like himself and 1980s California governor George Deukmejian with names ending in “ian” are highly respectable, while recent ex-Soviet Armenians with names ending in “yan” are trouble. I can believe it.
But that’s a stereotype, and stereotypes can’t tend to be true. They just can’t. What are people going to tell you next: that the stereotype that a fanatical Wikipedia administrator who writes countless articles about Indian cricket players probably isn’t also a Spanish manic pixie dream girl indie rock star is true? That’s just crazy talk.
… Karen Kearns, a spokeswoman for Citigroup, said in a statement that the bank had been “trying to thwart a well-documented Armenian fraud ring operating in certain parts of California,” and that “a few employees took impermissible actions.”
According to regulators, Citi managers knew excluding Armenians was illegal and warned employees “not to discuss it in writing or on recorded phone lines.” Even so, regulators found evidence of Citi employees discussing over email how to cover up their denial of applicants from Glendale.
“It’s been a while since I declined for possible credit abuse/YAN — gimme some reasons I can use,” one employee wrote to another in 2016, seeking advice on how to tell a potential customer that a credit card application had been denied without revealing the real reason, according to the consumer bureau. …
Emily Flitter covers finance. She is the author of “The White Wall: How Big Finance Bankrupts Black America.”
A large fraction of the highly honest staff at my bank about ten miles from Glendale are Armenians. It would be fascinating to know what clues they use to distinguish the trustworthy from the untrustworthy Armenians who walk in their doors.
English
Arabic
Chinese (Simplified)
Dutch
French
German
Hebrew
Hindi
Italian
Japanese
Korean
Persian
Polish
Portuguese
Russian
Spanish
Swedish
Turkish
Vietnamese
back in 2000 when i started posting here, i really wasn’t aware of this meme. Steve talked about Armenians and my reaction was always “Huh?”
i guess being from the east coast i never really noticed this stuff. but i’m here to say, Steve was right. i am now aware of the slightly swarthy men of -ian and -yan and their proclivities. heck, i was even on the System of a Down tour bus before they were famous, interviewing them for my radio station in 1998. my first direct experience with these nutty people. after a decade or two i started noticing all the -ian people.
Armenia has a proud history of being a unique mountainous buffer state that kept the Persian Empire and Roman Empire separate while usually maintaining its independence.
It also is an old Christian land, so much so that one of the Christian quarters of Jerusalem is named the Armenian Quarter.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Quarter
Then again, it also gifted us the Kardashian whores and gold-chained SoCal swindlers. So maybe a wash.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Armenia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/ArmenianArchibishopJean1287.jpg
The Caucasus trio: From left to right, Anastas Mikoyan, Joseph Stalin and Sergo Ordzhonikidze in 1925
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Ordzhonikidze%2C_Stalin_and_Mikoyan%2C_1925.jpg
Mikoyan in northern China, 1949 with Mao Zedong. He visited there in secret, representing Stalin, to discuss future relationship of CPC and CPSU after the Chinese Civil War
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/%D0%90.%D0%98.%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD_%D0%B8_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BE_%D0%A6%D0%B7%D1%8D%D0%B4%D1%83%D0%BD.jpgReplies: @kaganovitch, @Achmed E. Newman
In a related story, credit-card debt in the US is now over $1 Trillion.
Uncle Joe will forgive this, won’t he?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesfinancecouncil/2023/10/24/americans-now-have-1-trillion-in-credit-card-debt-heres-why/
I went to HS in the SFV, Went to high school with a lot of Armenians, including a Krikorian and a Mamian.
I was also jumped by a gang of Armenians outside of an Armenian run pool hall located in Studio City in 1993. A little one squared up on me and then his bigger buddy sucker punched me from behind and broke my jaw. The pool hall was out of business before my jaw healed and I couldn’t ID any of the group from mugshots because frankly, they all looked the same to this 18 year old.
I have no idea who Mkrtchyan is the son of. But this one was almost named Wikimedian of the Year.Replies: @epebble, @Bill Jones
More evidence, as though any were needed, that black folk only be poor ’cause wypipos keep stealing.
Who is Emily Flitter? According to JackD she can’t be Jewish.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/21/business/jp-morgan-racial-equity-pledge.html
Oops
https://www.pbs.org/video/the-white-wall-how-big-finance-bankrupts-black-america-48rsm3/
Way back in the late 1990s, I had a couple of Armenian customers at the bank I managed in New Canaan, Connecticut.
They always arrived in a Rolls-Royce.
When they first met me and sat down at my desk, they asked me where my family name came from.
I informed them that it was English, and they said, “Oh, that’s good.”
What’s particularly funny to me is not that they cared about my ancestry (which clearly they did) but that they didn’t recognize an obviously English family name.
Unfortunately, I don’t remember if their own family name ended in “ian” or “yan” or something else.
It’s nothing. It should have been over a billion.
Freedom of Association, bitchez!
Let the Armenians start their own banks. They can start with 14kt gold chains as collateral.Replies: @Steve Sailer
Whatever else is true, $25 million is pocket lint that Citibank can find hiding in the corners of one of its lesser vaults. I’d say they came out well and made a good settlement.
This is a real violation. If it is true, then they are guilty at least of that part.
In reality, this was a good business practice. For all we know, it saved them more then it ultimatley cost them.
It’s not so much that they’re Armenian as that they’re ex-Soviets. A cultural thing. But wouldn’t it then apply to other ex-Soviets: Russians, Georgians and so on?Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
Every lender with any presence in so-cal does this. For good reason.
So the takeaway would be don’t trust Armenians?
…I’m not agreeing or disagreeing — just noticing what seems to be the case.
(George Orwell, quoting a proverb in Down and Out in Paris and London)
Like Jews, they are also quite ethnocentric or inbred. I know in Glendale they tend to favour their own for business deals, schools, etc.Replies: @Hunsdon, @Twinkie, @Erik L
They always arrived in a Rolls-Royce.
When they first met me and sat down at my desk, they asked me where my family name came from.
I informed them that it was English, and they said, "Oh, that's good."
What's particularly funny to me is not that they cared about my ancestry (which clearly they did) but that they didn't recognize an obviously English family name.
Unfortunately, I don't remember if their own family name ended in "ian" or "yan" or something else.Replies: @HammerJack, @clifford brown
Funny about the cars. The two Armenian families I knew well had first, a small collection of classic Mercedes (e.g. 300Sc) and the second family, a RR Corniche and Silver Shadow.
They were all enjoyable people and they definitely traveled in style.
However, they were somewhat lax w.r.t maintenance so the cars were often in the shop or simply mothballed.
When the U.S. currency collapses, it will be very handy to own a few gold chains. A Krugerrand won’t be a practical means for paying the plumber, but a gold chain can be disassembled into its links, as needed. So, the Armenian families will have a definite survival advantage. The only survival downside is that home invaders, as they screen potential victims, will think, “Bingo! Sailerian! He probably has a few gold chains in his house.”
I would think if things get so bad the currency has collapsed the plumber will demand to be paid in a currency that is still sound the way third world countries favor using dollars instead of local money.
That, or barter in something that is authentic like chickens, canned food, ammunition, medicine etc.
I wonder if they also instructed their employees to turn away brownish women with massive “cabooses”?
So the Kardashians are the respectable ones?
While we are at it, can we ban them from driving on Ventura Boulevard?
Glendale Armenians are big players in Medicare fraud as well. There was a big case in 2010 of a national Medicare fraud ring that was headquartered in Glendale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Medicaid_fraud
In that case, both last name spelling types seemed to be represented:
They always arrived in a Rolls-Royce.
When they first met me and sat down at my desk, they asked me where my family name came from.
I informed them that it was English, and they said, "Oh, that's good."
What's particularly funny to me is not that they cared about my ancestry (which clearly they did) but that they didn't recognize an obviously English family name.
Unfortunately, I don't remember if their own family name ended in "ian" or "yan" or something else.Replies: @HammerJack, @clifford brown
There is a gypsy woman who runs a fortune teller operation around the block from me. She lives in the back of the shop likely illegally with her four children. Whenever the “husband” visits, he is driving a lime green Lamborghini. I have so many questions.
Naturally, when he comes home there'll be a big ol bag of "laundry" for Mama to take care of.
Q.E D.
“Never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink.”
Massachusetts politician Martin Lomasney ( 1859 – 1933)
Uncle Joe will forgive this, won't he?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesfinancecouncil/2023/10/24/americans-now-have-1-trillion-in-credit-card-debt-heres-why/Replies: @Redneck Farmer, @Anonymous, @bomag
Only if you vote for him!
This is anti-Haytseghism at its worst.
They say in those parts, it takes two Turks to swindle a Greek, two Greeks to swindle a Jew, and two Jews to swindle an Armenian. Mother Armenia is one tough broad:
yet, while Israel prospers economically, Armenia... doesn't.
https://youtu.be/wWnKSTNYtcU?si=j1rrceWvWtAqy9jL
https://youtu.be/pCfUVaEcqxE?si=tUxXEPsEaD84MfLLReplies: @kaganovitch, @quewin, @Frau Katze
“If the Soviet Union attacked Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?”Replies: @Reg Cæsar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Medicaid_fraud
In that case, both last name spelling types seemed to be represented:Replies: @HammerJack, @Catdompanj, @Hannah Katz, @Colin Wright
Aww, yet another classic Simpsons episode has to be deep-sixed.
I’m tired of living on the Starship Enterprise!
I was also jumped by a gang of Armenians outside of an Armenian run pool hall located in Studio City in 1993. A little one squared up on me and then his bigger buddy sucker punched me from behind and broke my jaw. The pool hall was out of business before my jaw healed and I couldn't ID any of the group from mugshots because frankly, they all looked the same to this 18 year old.Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Ganderson
Krikorian is the son of Gregory. Kevorkian is the son of George. Sarkisian (as in Cher) is the son of Sergius. Bagdasarian (as in David Seville, oo–ee–oo–ah–ah) is the son of Balthasar.
I have no idea who Mkrtchyan is the son of. But this one was almost named Wikimedian of the Year.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Kirk_Kerkorian_2017_stamp_of_Armenia.jpg/220px-Kirk_Kerkorian_2017_stamp_of_Armenia.jpgReplies: @Renard
It also is an old Christian land, so much so that one of the Christian quarters of Jerusalem is named the Armenian Quarter.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Quarter
Then again, it also gifted us the Kardashian whores and gold-chained SoCal swindlers. So maybe a wash.Replies: @epebble, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @kicktheroos, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
It also gifted us Kevorkian who pioneered modern euthanasia that is being adopted by the various States as Assisted Suicide or Death with Dignity.
I have no idea who Mkrtchyan is the son of. But this one was almost named Wikimedian of the Year.Replies: @epebble, @Bill Jones
Kirk Kerkorian was a renowned investor in Southern California. He was so famous that Armenia issued a stamp on him.
$1.4 million / 80,000 = Wow! Seventeen bucks and 50 cents apiece! That doesn’t cover a lot of gold, even the 14kt stuff. And the other $24.5 million is “pocket lint” for CitiBank, as Buzz wrote.
Haha! When you point your finger cause your
plansloan fell through, you got three more fingers pointing back at you, yeah!I’m not sure why there should have been any kind of fine. If the bank was wrong about the risk in loaning to Armenians of various surname spellings, then they’ve already lost out.
Freedom of Association, bitchez!
Let the Armenians start their own banks. They can start with 14kt gold chains as collateral.
...I'm not agreeing or disagreeing -- just noticing what seems to be the case.Replies: @Curle, @Dumbo, @rushed boob job
Since the characterization has a high probability of being true we can safely assume that an anti -Armenian white nationalist said or suggested such a thing. Quick, tear down another Civil War statue.
They say in those parts, it takes two Turks to swindle a Greek, two Greeks to swindle a Jew, and two Jews to swindle an Armenian. Mother Armenia is one tough broad:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/20160603_005-Jerevan_Mutter_Armeniens-Armenien-006.jpg/1365px-20160603_005-Jerevan_Mutter_Armeniens-Armenien-006.jpgReplies: @Twinkie, @The Alarmist
And,
yet, while Israel prospers economically, Armenia… doesn’t.
Indeed, we need a “Beam me down Scotty” meme.
yet, while Israel prospers economically, Armenia... doesn't.
https://youtu.be/wWnKSTNYtcU?si=j1rrceWvWtAqy9jL
https://youtu.be/pCfUVaEcqxE?si=tUxXEPsEaD84MfLLReplies: @kaganovitch, @quewin, @Frau Katze
While swindling may be a viable strategy on the individual level , one quickly runs into scaling issues on the national level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_OblastReplies: @YetAnotherAnon, @kaganovitch
Armenia may not be a rich country, but neither was South Korea a few decades ago. Economic development is a dynamic process, and it's well known that historical and geographic factors play an important role here.
Armenia has been independent from the communists for around 30 years and hardly any other country has achieved a higher GDP per capita growth since then, despite the fact that the country is landlocked, doesn't have railway access to any port, and is held in semi-blocade by half of it's neighbors.
Software development is the most flourishing industry in the country for a reason.
It helps to own a US government or two.
Freedom of Association, bitchez!
Let the Armenians start their own banks. They can start with 14kt gold chains as collateral.Replies: @Steve Sailer
I wouldn’t be surprised if Armenian-Americans have started their own banks. I’d be interested in what they do to target credit toward the many Armenian honest entrepreneurs and away from the many Armenian crooked fraudsters.
https://armenianweekly.com/2017/01/18/califonria-based-golden-state-bank-and-armenias-ameriabank-announce-collaboration/
https://www.asbarez.com/golden-state-bank-welcomes-new-aua-president-and-joins-exclusive-group-of-aua-changemakers/
The key is to stay small and do things like issue mortgages in a defined area with 20% down (even when the regulators are pressing you to ease up on your down payment requirements).
I also imagine that the IANS know what the YANS are up to and know how to request documentation that the YANS can't easily fabricate.
IIRC, there was a similar situation decades ago with the inability of single women to get credit cards. In states that recognized the estate in property between married couples as "tenants by the entireties," the spouses can own property together as an undivided entity reflecting the metaphysics of the marriage. So debt against one spouse and not the other is not enforceable as against property owned together "by the entireties." You can see the issue here - young single women individually racking up credit card debt before getting married and telling her creditors to get lost. They just got the government to force the lenders to make bad bets, so that everyone else could subsidize a pre-marriage spending spree. Very similar to this situation here - use the civil rights key to extract money and stick everyone else with the bill.
As someone who has actually researched statistical data I can tell you that the incarceration rate of immigrants from Armenia is much lower than that of Whites.
Moreover, Armenia itself has very low crime rates and is safer than pretty much any European country, just like Armenian-majority Glendale is safer than pretty much any 100,000+ American city.
So Armenians, including those from Armenia, aren't prone to crime and provably so.
Sure, if some Armenian fraudsters are sophisticated enough to steal $200 million they would make the news, but it would say something about the "quality" rather than the quantity of Armenian criminals.
And if the few Armenian criminals tend to be white collar criminals, it's in line with the fact that Armenians overall tend to do white collar jobs, it doesn't imply that they are less honest.
Also, it doesn't follow from the statistics that Armenian immigrants from Armenia are much more problematic than those from Iran or Lebanon. It's true, however, that a small fraction of them were influenced by the Soviet criminal culture, but it's not enough to label the entire community as "trouble".
Apparently, the "old stock" Armenian Americans, who have been living in the country for a century, have higher socioeconomic characteristics and are better integrated than recent Armenian immigrants, but I don't have to explain to you why it's not weird.
Just look at how many young Armenians with doctorate and professional degrees are there in LA county, they are overwhelmingly children of immigrants.
...I'm not agreeing or disagreeing -- just noticing what seems to be the case.Replies: @Curle, @Dumbo, @rushed boob job
“Trust a snake before a Jew and a Jew before a Greek, but don’t trust an Armenian.”
(George Orwell, quoting a proverb in Down and Out in Paris and London)
Like Jews, they are also quite ethnocentric or inbred. I know in Glendale they tend to favour their own for business deals, schools, etc.
Is the Greek diaspora known for being shifty and treacherous in America? I lived in a heavily Greek area of NYC for a bit while growing up. They struck me as kinda generic Balkan-ish immigrants, somewhat poorer cousins of Italians in a manner of speaking.Replies: @kaganovitch, @Anon
OT, something about to break on Samantha Woll case. Unidentified suspect arrested in Kalamazoo, a long way from Detroit. One story mentions domestic issues. Could suspect be an xy ex, a jilted Sappho or a chocolate boy toy? Katy Tur is covering it for MSNBC, so if there is a trans angle she might sense it.
In other LA Gold Chain community news this evening:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Medicaid_fraud
In that case, both last name spelling types seemed to be represented:Replies: @HammerJack, @Catdompanj, @Hannah Katz, @Colin Wright
Was Paul Bunyan a gold chain, heavy cologne wearing Armenian lumberjack?
It also is an old Christian land, so much so that one of the Christian quarters of Jerusalem is named the Armenian Quarter.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Quarter
Then again, it also gifted us the Kardashian whores and gold-chained SoCal swindlers. So maybe a wash.Replies: @epebble, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @kicktheroos, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
Say what you will about the Kardashian girls, but they are hard working.
They probably look for Armenians who look like Armenians.
They say in those parts, it takes two Turks to swindle a Greek, two Greeks to swindle a Jew, and two Jews to swindle an Armenian. Mother Armenia is one tough broad:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/20160603_005-Jerevan_Mutter_Armeniens-Armenien-006.jpg/1365px-20160603_005-Jerevan_Mutter_Armeniens-Armenien-006.jpgReplies: @Twinkie, @The Alarmist
An old quip from Cold War 1.0 went something like
“If the Soviet Union attacked Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?”
Uncle Joe will forgive this, won't he?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesfinancecouncil/2023/10/24/americans-now-have-1-trillion-in-credit-card-debt-heres-why/Replies: @Redneck Farmer, @Anonymous, @bomag
What is significant about that?
Why?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Medicaid_fraud
In that case, both last name spelling types seemed to be represented:Replies: @HammerJack, @Catdompanj, @Hannah Katz, @Colin Wright
Reminds me of a nurse complaining on a radio call in show of Armenians showing up at the ER in a Mercedez, complaining of a hang nail, while bragging they have insurance. Her reply was, “You don’t have health insurance, you have MediCal!”
OT – I don’t think District Judge Tan Ikram has a British sense of humour:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/michael-chadwell-met-police-racist-joke-parrot-b1118474.html
What was this grossly offensive message?
(George Orwell, quoting a proverb in Down and Out in Paris and London)
Like Jews, they are also quite ethnocentric or inbred. I know in Glendale they tend to favour their own for business deals, schools, etc.Replies: @Hunsdon, @Twinkie, @Erik L
I recall the same saying from a Harold Lamb story.
I was also jumped by a gang of Armenians outside of an Armenian run pool hall located in Studio City in 1993. A little one squared up on me and then his bigger buddy sucker punched me from behind and broke my jaw. The pool hall was out of business before my jaw healed and I couldn't ID any of the group from mugshots because frankly, they all looked the same to this 18 year old.Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Ganderson
One of my favorite episodes of the Rockford Files involved Angel getting chased around by a bunch of violent Armenians. Avery Schreiber played the head of the Boyagian (or was it Boyagyan?) clan.
Note the spelling. They were mostly peaceful Armenians, but they did try to kill Jim and Angel.
yet, while Israel prospers economically, Armenia... doesn't.
https://youtu.be/wWnKSTNYtcU?si=j1rrceWvWtAqy9jL
https://youtu.be/pCfUVaEcqxE?si=tUxXEPsEaD84MfLLReplies: @kaganovitch, @quewin, @Frau Katze
Because there isn’t any difference at all in how successfully those two nations have leveraged victimization narratives into lucrative foreign aid and cuckservative support.
Uncle Joe will forgive this, won't he?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesfinancecouncil/2023/10/24/americans-now-have-1-trillion-in-credit-card-debt-heres-why/Replies: @Redneck Farmer, @Anonymous, @bomag
Well, he’s spending so much that inflation is baked into the cake forevermore, so he’s at least giving such debt holders a deal.
Ya see, it’s like this. Papa Gypsie oversees a far flung group of business interests, so he needs to travel in comfort and style.
Naturally, when he comes home there’ll be a big ol bag of “laundry” for Mama to take care of.
Q.E D.
I could halve an insurance company’s loss ratio by removing 20% of their insureds base on their full names alone. It’s just like Medicare fraud.
plansloan fell through, you got three more fingers pointing back at you, yeah!Replies: @bomagSeems these things are mainly a grift by the Slip and Fall lawyer’s guild.
$26M, of which $1M goes to victims. There is nothing so criminal as law.
Wasn’t Armenia aware that they needed to bribe the right Americans , give tens of millions to the right “foundation” or “presidential library ” or perhaps cash money paid thru a family member acting as a cut-out……..who knows, that bribe taker could end up as president ,that’s like you or I winning the powerball jackpot.
It also is an old Christian land, so much so that one of the Christian quarters of Jerusalem is named the Armenian Quarter.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Quarter
Then again, it also gifted us the Kardashian whores and gold-chained SoCal swindlers. So maybe a wash.Replies: @epebble, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @kicktheroos, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
They and Ethiopia both claim to be the oldest. They have kept their alphabets, too. None of that Latin, Greek, or Arabic nonsense, and left-to-right, as civilized people do it.
(George Orwell, quoting a proverb in Down and Out in Paris and London)
Like Jews, they are also quite ethnocentric or inbred. I know in Glendale they tend to favour their own for business deals, schools, etc.Replies: @Hunsdon, @Twinkie, @Erik L
I get the Jew and Armenian thing, but Greeks?
Is the Greek diaspora known for being shifty and treacherous in America? I lived in a heavily Greek area of NYC for a bit while growing up. They struck me as kinda generic Balkan-ish immigrants, somewhat poorer cousins of Italians in a manner of speaking.
This version is closer to the book than the Hollywood version. One of the characters is Chilo the Greek.
This is a job for Mannix — Mike Connors was born Krikor Ohanian in Fresno and you certainly wouldn’t deny him a loan, would you? In the series Joe’s dad is a hard-working Armenian farmer who is bitter that his son didn’t stick around to tend the grapes
Anyway, I thought Albanians were the problem now, not Armenians. Or Gypsies. Did you know that Gypsy is considered a racial slur now?
Tinted windows?
(George Orwell, quoting a proverb in Down and Out in Paris and London)
Like Jews, they are also quite ethnocentric or inbred. I know in Glendale they tend to favour their own for business deals, schools, etc.Replies: @Hunsdon, @Twinkie, @Erik L
Snakes are quite trustworthy and predictable. Don’t tread on them; don’t get bit.
I have no idea who Mkrtchyan is the son of. But this one was almost named Wikimedian of the Year.Replies: @epebble, @Bill Jones
Perhaps Mkrtch (Rhymes with Mitch?) is the Albanian for Bitch?
https://youtu.be/RqynXNBiwGo?si=1_zZOBpfXF60RGEZReplies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
I think Syria has a case for the oldest. They certainly had their share of Popes.
https://aleteia.org/2021/09/18/the-five-syrian-popes/
OT – This is highly suspicious:
Good question. If you know anyone (or more likely, friend of a friend) at Golden State Bank that might be a good place to look.
https://armenianweekly.com/2017/01/18/califonria-based-golden-state-bank-and-armenias-ameriabank-announce-collaboration/
https://www.asbarez.com/golden-state-bank-welcomes-new-aua-president-and-joins-exclusive-group-of-aua-changemakers/
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Kirk_Kerkorian_2017_stamp_of_Armenia.jpg/220px-Kirk_Kerkorian_2017_stamp_of_Armenia.jpgReplies: @Renard
He does look jewish, no?
“ somewhat poorer cousins of Italians”
Greeks immigrants have the highest share of doctors and nurses and are generally high income.
Its like doing business with orthodox jews. You just do not period.
Fraud is a way of life for these groups.
I wonder how a Jewish state would have done under a Soviet domination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
Interestingly enough, Canadians , both Jewish and Gentile, were big supporters of the Birobidzhan initiative. An early-ish example of the "worthwhile Canadian initiative" phenomenon! As you probably know, there was a large Korean presence in Birobidzhan already. Victor Fink made a meal of all this delicious diversity in Noviya Rodina which features a Korean-Yiddish couple as protagonists. (At least it did in the Yiddish language version a friend of mine staged a while back. Looking around the intertubes, I see he took some liberties.)
I have represented the archetypical “immigrants can’t get loans and form their own bank” banks.
The key is to stay small and do things like issue mortgages in a defined area with 20% down (even when the regulators are pressing you to ease up on your down payment requirements).
I also imagine that the IANS know what the YANS are up to and know how to request documentation that the YANS can’t easily fabricate.
IIRC, there was a similar situation decades ago with the inability of single women to get credit cards. In states that recognized the estate in property between married couples as “tenants by the entireties,” the spouses can own property together as an undivided entity reflecting the metaphysics of the marriage. So debt against one spouse and not the other is not enforceable as against property owned together “by the entireties.” You can see the issue here – young single women individually racking up credit card debt before getting married and telling her creditors to get lost. They just got the government to force the lenders to make bad bets, so that everyone else could subsidize a pre-marriage spending spree. Very similar to this situation here – use the civil rights key to extract money and stick everyone else with the bill.
Is the Greek diaspora known for being shifty and treacherous in America? I lived in a heavily Greek area of NYC for a bit while growing up. They struck me as kinda generic Balkan-ish immigrants, somewhat poorer cousins of Italians in a manner of speaking.Replies: @kaganovitch, @Anon
It’s referring to Anatolian/Byzantine Greeks, a classical middle man/small entrepreneur minority in much of the Ottoman empire. In the USA Greek immigrants were much more likely to come from Greece with different sensibilities/history.
About 40 years ago I had a Greek landlady in an Italian neighborhood in NYC. She always said to watch out for Italians trying to cheat people.
In some neighborhoods Greeks and Italians didn’t always get along well. I don’t know if things have changed since then.
So lot’s of people fleeing Commiefornia have gone to live in Colorado and fuck that up.
They may not want to die there:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/08/colorado-funeral-home-owner-arrested-decaying-bodies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_OblastReplies: @YetAnotherAnon, @kaganovitch
Not many Jews left in the JAO. Of course that might change as the Far East becomes the centre of world gravity.
Jews, with their eye to the main chance, are a good bellwether or canary in the coal mine. Industrial Wales had plenty in the 19th century heyday of steel, copper and coal – now there are abandoned or repurposed synagogues all over the place.
The greatest British Home Secretary of the post-war years, Michael Howard (ne Hecht) was born in Gorseinon, an industrial village just outside Swansea which I know quite well. I’m pretty sure he hasn’t stayed in the area.
Steve, since you keep pushing this narrative about “yan” Armenians, let me clarify a few things.
As someone who has actually researched statistical data I can tell you that the incarceration rate of immigrants from Armenia is much lower than that of Whites.
Moreover, Armenia itself has very low crime rates and is safer than pretty much any European country, just like Armenian-majority Glendale is safer than pretty much any 100,000+ American city.
So Armenians, including those from Armenia, aren’t prone to crime and provably so.
Sure, if some Armenian fraudsters are sophisticated enough to steal $200 million they would make the news, but it would say something about the “quality” rather than the quantity of Armenian criminals.
And if the few Armenian criminals tend to be white collar criminals, it’s in line with the fact that Armenians overall tend to do white collar jobs, it doesn’t imply that they are less honest.
Also, it doesn’t follow from the statistics that Armenian immigrants from Armenia are much more problematic than those from Iran or Lebanon. It’s true, however, that a small fraction of them were influenced by the Soviet criminal culture, but it’s not enough to label the entire community as “trouble”.
Apparently, the “old stock” Armenian Americans, who have been living in the country for a century, have higher socioeconomic characteristics and are better integrated than recent Armenian immigrants, but I don’t have to explain to you why it’s not weird.
Just look at how many young Armenians with doctorate and professional degrees are there in LA county, they are overwhelmingly children of immigrants.
There isn’t any good reason to assume that Armenians outside of Armenia tend to be relatively affluent because of “swindling”. You can look at the socioeconomic characteristics of Armenian Americans and their overall achievement, and you’ll see that as a group they are highly successful, educated, and law-abiding people.
Armenia may not be a rich country, but neither was South Korea a few decades ago. Economic development is a dynamic process, and it’s well known that historical and geographic factors play an important role here.
Armenia has been independent from the communists for around 30 years and hardly any other country has achieved a higher GDP per capita growth since then, despite the fact that the country is landlocked, doesn’t have railway access to any port, and is held in semi-blocade by half of it’s neighbors.
Software development is the most flourishing industry in the country for a reason.
Ah, but the criterion is as a nation, which applies better both to Armenia and Ethiopia– at least the Amharic parts– than to Syria. The building I live in was once owned by a Syrian immigrant, and I’m pretty sure if I looked him up on the census, his birthplace would have been the Ottoman Empire.
Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Iraq, even Lebanon have a history of shifting boundaries and definitions which makes “nationhood” less clear. Though Lebanon is helped by her significant Christian population to stick out.
Even then...I was reading a quotation from a Polish labor leader active around 1910. He remarked that when he was a peasant boy, being 'Polish' was something that applied to the gentry. His people considered themselves 'Masovian.'
On the other hand, you're pleased to consider the Armenians and the Amhara nations -- but what distinguishes these nations from tribes? After all, the Saxons, say, remained a functional political entity well into the Middle Ages. At some point did they cease to be a tribe and become a nation? What defined the transition?
I'm inclined to the position that nationhood -- as distinct from tribal identity -- is largely a conceit of the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries. To apply the term outside of that period -- or even within it, to many areas -- is to mistake the situation.
The Romans see themselves as a people, and come to rule most of the known world. Does that world then become a Roman 'nation'? I think this does more to obscure the situation than to clarify it.Replies: @Reg Cæsar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_OblastReplies: @YetAnotherAnon, @kaganovitch
Birobidzhan’s failure was somewhat overdetermined, I think, but the inability of ‘sharp practice’ professions to scale up probably contributed. Could a superhuman effort have transformed Birobidzhan into a semi prosperous agricultural/timber province? Perhaps, but it started from a much worse position than Israel from both a climate and location standpoint. Too, collective superhuman effort is generally not forthcoming absent a unifying idea that touches the depths of the soul (Zion!). Add to these factors Soviet capital controls and general economic cretinism and its doom was, in Marxist parlance, ‘ineluctable’.
Interestingly enough, Canadians , both Jewish and Gentile, were big supporters of the Birobidzhan initiative. An early-ish example of the “worthwhile Canadian initiative” phenomenon! As you probably know, there was a large Korean presence in Birobidzhan already. Victor Fink made a meal of all this delicious diversity in Noviya Rodina which features a Korean-Yiddish couple as protagonists. (At least it did in the Yiddish language version a friend of mine staged a while back. Looking around the intertubes, I see he took some liberties.)
It also is an old Christian land, so much so that one of the Christian quarters of Jerusalem is named the Armenian Quarter.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Quarter
Then again, it also gifted us the Kardashian whores and gold-chained SoCal swindlers. So maybe a wash.Replies: @epebble, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @kicktheroos, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
THa kardis are BBC loving whores because of their british mother armos are sort of mid eastern so not whores he he why do you effers love to protect the britshit and their descandants so much you effers also love disposable british cars no matter how unrelaiable
https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1722420508350644333
https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1722337687154139140
https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1722312689060397398
https://twitter.com/gunpolicy/status/1722267866396078151Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
Romney belongs to that class of public official who believes voting should not be allowed to change the government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Medicaid_fraud
In that case, both last name spelling types seemed to be represented:Replies: @HammerJack, @Catdompanj, @Hannah Katz, @Colin Wright
So much for the -ian/-yan rule. Just don’t trust any of them?
holy crap, saw the link “Citibank Fined $25 Million for Discriminating Against Men with Gold Chains” and thought about the FLATHEADS of venturablvd…
clicked the link and naturally, the first paragraph of the article goes on to indicate that it is indeed, about the FLATHEADS of venturablvd.
FLATHEADS getting paid yo.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/michael-chadwell-met-police-racist-joke-parrot-b1118474.htmlWhat was this grossly offensive message?Replies: @Joe Stalin
Reminds me of the Chicago doctor who left his garage door unlocked and his Black neighbor going in and stealing his bike. Only found out when his neighbor across the street told him about what happened.
if they ruin their old bmw with a real shitty aftermarket exhaust, they are untrustworthy armo.
if they keep their bmw clean and stock, they are trustworthy armo.
Nationhood as a condition didn’t really become common until about 1850.
Even then…I was reading a quotation from a Polish labor leader active around 1910. He remarked that when he was a peasant boy, being ‘Polish’ was something that applied to the gentry. His people considered themselves ‘Masovian.’
On the other hand, you’re pleased to consider the Armenians and the Amhara nations — but what distinguishes these nations from tribes? After all, the Saxons, say, remained a functional political entity well into the Middle Ages. At some point did they cease to be a tribe and become a nation? What defined the transition?
I’m inclined to the position that nationhood — as distinct from tribal identity — is largely a conceit of the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries. To apply the term outside of that period — or even within it, to many areas — is to mistake the situation.
The Romans see themselves as a people, and come to rule most of the known world. Does that world then become a Roman ‘nation’? I think this does more to obscure the situation than to clarify it.
Mountain areas are rarely conquered and languages can diverge considerably. Compare that to Poland, which is redefined every century, and in a language family even more uniform than the Romance, which is famous for 2,000-mile stretches along which every village can understand the ones adjacent. Chinese and Arabic are more diverse internally than the entire Slavic family is.Just as a "language" is a dialect with an army and a flag, so a "nation" is a tribe and its language.No one has ever suggested that in 2,100 years! The Republic may have been a nation by modern standards, but it became the poster child for empire.Replies: @Colin Wright
It also is an old Christian land, so much so that one of the Christian quarters of Jerusalem is named the Armenian Quarter.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Quarter
Then again, it also gifted us the Kardashian whores and gold-chained SoCal swindlers. So maybe a wash.Replies: @epebble, @The Alarmist, @Reg Cæsar, @kicktheroos, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
Armenia formed an alliance with Mongols against Islam. Siege of Baghdad was an incidence where Chinese (siege engineers) fought along side Armenian cavalry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Archbishop John of Cilician Armenia, in a painting from 1287. His dress displays a Chinese dragon
The Caucasus trio: From left to right, Anastas Mikoyan, Joseph Stalin and Sergo Ordzhonikidze in 1925
Mikoyan in northern China, 1949 with Mao Zedong. He visited there in secret, representing Stalin, to discuss future relationship of CPC and CPSU after the Chinese Civil War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Armenia
https://www.peakstupidity.com/images/post_930A.jpg
Well, I mean, it's not a "march" exactly, when you're the Dear Leader.
From a couple of years later, in 1937, in a photo op with some American Communists, State Dept. variety:
https://www.peakstupidity.com/images/post_2343A.jpgReplies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
...I'm not agreeing or disagreeing -- just noticing what seems to be the case.Replies: @Curle, @Dumbo, @rushed boob job
they’re much more honest than persians, so they got that going for them.
glendale armo credit card fraud? shieeet. child’s play.
persians all over are on that billionaire-funded-terrorism-trickle-down-cash-flow, all while pretending they aren’t.
I don’t know about the Glendale ethos, but I was in Yerevan, Armenia about 15 years ago, on an alumni tour, and people were extremely kind to me, even where there was no ulterior motive or potential swindle involved. I visited the famous, gigantic “Chess House.” Children were arriving with their workbooks, and appeared to be very polite and involved. Chess is a required subject in Armenian elementary schools. (!) I think this is a good idea because it teaches attention span and logical thinking.
Gold chains aren’t pure gold, even 18kt is 25% another metal. Also paying with a chain link means the recipient has to get it assayed to establish it is real, so they wouldn’t be my choice for payment.
I would think if things get so bad the currency has collapsed the plumber will demand to be paid in a currency that is still sound the way third world countries favor using dollars instead of local money.
That, or barter in something that is authentic like chickens, canned food, ammunition, medicine etc.
That makes some sense.
About 40 years ago I had a Greek landlady in an Italian neighborhood in NYC. She always said to watch out for Italians trying to cheat people.
In some neighborhoods Greeks and Italians didn’t always get along well. I don’t know if things have changed since then.
i guess being from the east coast i never really noticed this stuff. but i'm here to say, Steve was right. i am now aware of the slightly swarthy men of -ian and -yan and their proclivities. heck, i was even on the System of a Down tour bus before they were famous, interviewing them for my radio station in 1998. my first direct experience with these nutty people. after a decade or two i started noticing all the -ian people.Replies: @AndrewR
Tell us about meeting SOAD
Damn.
Well, Citibank has always been a giant money laundering machine. The CIA’s and other gangs’ favorite. I find it petty the way they treated those mildly crooked Armenians.
But, but…there can’t be any significant differences between the old and the new Armenians because genetics.
Emptying the consonant drawer before opening the vowel one is a Georgian thing, not Armenian. It may be an import.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Armenia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/ArmenianArchibishopJean1287.jpg
The Caucasus trio: From left to right, Anastas Mikoyan, Joseph Stalin and Sergo Ordzhonikidze in 1925
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Ordzhonikidze%2C_Stalin_and_Mikoyan%2C_1925.jpg
Mikoyan in northern China, 1949 with Mao Zedong. He visited there in secret, representing Stalin, to discuss future relationship of CPC and CPSU after the Chinese Civil War
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/%D0%90.%D0%98.%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD_%D0%B8_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BE_%D0%A6%D0%B7%D1%8D%D0%B4%D1%83%D0%BD.jpgReplies: @kaganovitch, @Achmed E. Newman
Let this be a lesson to us all. Luxuriant mustaches and tall, well shined boots are the key to political success.
Even then...I was reading a quotation from a Polish labor leader active around 1910. He remarked that when he was a peasant boy, being 'Polish' was something that applied to the gentry. His people considered themselves 'Masovian.'
On the other hand, you're pleased to consider the Armenians and the Amhara nations -- but what distinguishes these nations from tribes? After all, the Saxons, say, remained a functional political entity well into the Middle Ages. At some point did they cease to be a tribe and become a nation? What defined the transition?
I'm inclined to the position that nationhood -- as distinct from tribal identity -- is largely a conceit of the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries. To apply the term outside of that period -- or even within it, to many areas -- is to mistake the situation.
The Romans see themselves as a people, and come to rule most of the known world. Does that world then become a Roman 'nation'? I think this does more to obscure the situation than to clarify it.Replies: @Reg Cæsar
Nationalism itself is a left-wing statist play on patriotism. Similar to how Mario Pei described communism as borrowing its purported ideals from Christianity.
I’m just repeating their own claims. Obviously, Christianity is older the closer one gets to Jerusalem.
Mountain areas are rarely conquered and languages can diverge considerably. Compare that to Poland, which is redefined every century, and in a language family even more uniform than the Romance, which is famous for 2,000-mile stretches along which every village can understand the ones adjacent. Chinese and Arabic are more diverse internally than the entire Slavic family is.
Just as a “language” is a dialect with an army and a flag, so a “nation” is a tribe and its language.
No one has ever suggested that in 2,100 years! The Republic may have been a nation by modern standards, but it became the poster child for empire.
Exceptions and contradictions abound, but I'd say this is the distinction -- as the words are understood today.Replies: @Anonymous
That was Rattler’s Class of ’63. Angel Martin got into a sham marriage with Regine Boyajian. Quote from the IMDB:
Sounds more Italian.
Note the spelling. They were mostly peaceful Armenians, but they did try to kill Jim and Angel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Armenia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/ArmenianArchibishopJean1287.jpg
The Caucasus trio: From left to right, Anastas Mikoyan, Joseph Stalin and Sergo Ordzhonikidze in 1925
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Ordzhonikidze%2C_Stalin_and_Mikoyan%2C_1925.jpg
Mikoyan in northern China, 1949 with Mao Zedong. He visited there in secret, representing Stalin, to discuss future relationship of CPC and CPSU after the Chinese Civil War
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/%D0%90.%D0%98.%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD_%D0%B8_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BE_%D0%A6%D0%B7%D1%8D%D0%B4%D1%83%D0%BD.jpgReplies: @kaganovitch, @Achmed E. Newman
Wow, Mao had gained a lot of weight since the Long March.
Well, I mean, it’s not a “march” exactly, when you’re the Dear Leader.
From a couple of years later, in 1937, in a photo op with some American Communists, State Dept. variety:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Otto_Braun.jpg
He did let himself go during the Civil War, but he also looked shabby because he was holed up in rural area. This was later in 1949, Mao attending Stalin's 70th birthday, met by Molotov and Bulganin. Giving a speech with the same country bumpkin accent.
https://images-cdn.bridgemanimages.com/api/1.0/image/600wm.UIG.75713650.7055475/5628578.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFLz2juVbY8
It might well have been a good business decision but isn’t this illegal in the US?
It’s not so much that they’re Armenian as that they’re ex-Soviets. A cultural thing. But wouldn’t it then apply to other ex-Soviets: Russians, Georgians and so on?
It’s not so much that they’re Armenian as that they’re ex-Soviets. A cultural thing. But wouldn’t it then apply to other ex-Soviets: Russians, Georgians and so on?Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
It could apply to anybody.
A bank’s ultimate responsibility is to its shareholders. Protecting its depositors’ money amounts to practically the same thing. If you make a calculated decision to go against a silly, unrealistic law to protect the people who actually own your bank and have their money in it, then, by God, you are doing the right thing.
This wasn’t a matter of real, common law about normal crimes. No, it was about “offending” or applying “prejudice” against High Risk.
The word “prejudice” simply means judging ahead of time, which is what anyone skilled at protecting his money is good at.
yet, while Israel prospers economically, Armenia... doesn't.
https://youtu.be/wWnKSTNYtcU?si=j1rrceWvWtAqy9jL
https://youtu.be/pCfUVaEcqxE?si=tUxXEPsEaD84MfLLReplies: @kaganovitch, @quewin, @Frau Katze
The dominant players in Israel were European Jews or their descendants. They never lived under Communism. I seem to recall reading somewhere a while ago that the Soviet Jews (who arrived in Israel much later) were somewhat more crime and fraud prone.
https://www.peakstupidity.com/images/post_930A.jpg
Well, I mean, it's not a "march" exactly, when you're the Dear Leader.
From a couple of years later, in 1937, in a photo op with some American Communists, State Dept. variety:
https://www.peakstupidity.com/images/post_2343A.jpgReplies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
Mao wasn’t Dear Leader at the beginning of Long March, the Russian-speaking clique around Otto Braun that looked down Mao as a country bumpkin who never traveled abroad, was. Mao led a number of key military wins and manoeuvre to top CPC leadership at the end.
He did let himself go during the Civil War, but he also looked shabby because he was holed up in rural area. This was later in 1949, Mao attending Stalin’s 70th birthday, met by Molotov and Bulganin. Giving a speech with the same country bumpkin accent.
Indeed. Imagine Trump with that look
The old Armenians tend to be Western Armenians from nearer to the Mediterranean, the new Armenians tend to be Eastern Armenians from more inland.
But I’m only vaguely informed on this subject.
So it could be possible that the "IANs" emigrated from Armenia before Sovietization, whereas the "YANs" (where the Y is the Cyrillic "ya" backwards R letter transliterating from the Armenian language into Russian) emigrated from Armenia after Sovietization. The "IANs" were more respectable than the cynical "YANs."Replies: @Dutch Boy, @Anonymous
Then I ran into a bunch of formerly Soviet Armenians (-yans, mostly through Judo and MMA circles). Many of them were dodgy and some were downright crooks. Definitely fit the gold chain-wearing stereotype.
So, my particular personal experience matches your paradigm.
There were two groups of people allowed to emigrate from the Soviet Union: Jews and Armenian repatriants.
In the 1940s USSR launched a repatriation campaign for Armenians living abroad, so many Western Armenians from countries like Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, and Greece came to Soviet Armenia. After some time most of them realized they didn't want to live under communism and moved to Los Angeles, where their relatives had been living. Local Armenians weren't allowed to emigrate.
So most of those "yan" Armenians in LA are actually Western Armenians, like "ian" Armenians from Lebanon, Syria etc
However, the biggest Armenian community in LA are immigrants from Iran and they are mostly Eastern Armenians with last names ending in "-ian".
If anything, there isn't any significant genetic difference between Western and Eastern Armenians.
About 1/3 of Armenia's population are Western Armenians whose ancestors fled the Ottoman Empire, there are entire provinces which are mostly populated by them and they don't stand out in any way.
Unfortunately the law in the US doesn’t agree with you. That’s why they were fined,
IIRC there was a “Sovietization” program in Armenia and Azerbaijan, Georgia etc. at some point. My guess is that after you’ve been taught Russian as a child in school, you wind up doing things like moving to Moscow for University or work. The Armenian government functionaries become Sovietized. The widespread dysfunction typical of the later Soviet period becomes the norm in Armenia. So your worldview is that everyone – including the government – lies as a matter of course, and only a sucker would hand a stranger lots of money on the strength of a promise to pay it back in the future.
So it could be possible that the “IANs” emigrated from Armenia before Sovietization, whereas the “YANs” (where the Y is the Cyrillic “ya” backwards R letter transliterating from the Armenian language into Russian) emigrated from Armenia after Sovietization. The “IANs” were more respectable than the cynical “YANs.”
Would several decades of Sovietization really be any worse of an influence?
I had a couple of Armenian friends growing up. They were sons of old time Armenians (-ians). Ancestors were originally from what were parts of the Ottoman Empire. They had respectable (even erudite) parents and were good students.
Then I ran into a bunch of formerly Soviet Armenians (-yans, mostly through Judo and MMA circles). Many of them were dodgy and some were downright crooks. Definitely fit the gold chain-wearing stereotype.
So, my particular personal experience matches your paradigm.
Mountain areas are rarely conquered and languages can diverge considerably. Compare that to Poland, which is redefined every century, and in a language family even more uniform than the Romance, which is famous for 2,000-mile stretches along which every village can understand the ones adjacent. Chinese and Arabic are more diverse internally than the entire Slavic family is.Just as a "language" is a dialect with an army and a flag, so a "nation" is a tribe and its language.No one has ever suggested that in 2,100 years! The Republic may have been a nation by modern standards, but it became the poster child for empire.Replies: @Colin Wright
To take it seriously, there is a distinction. Generally, a tribe defines itself by its members, dispersed or not. A nation insists that everyone within its territory is a member of that nation, like it or not. A Breton is a Frenchman, a black is an American, a Sorb is a German, an Ainu is Japanese, etc.
Exceptions and contradictions abound, but I’d say this is the distinction — as the words are understood today.
Some nations control territory and resources to greater or lesser extents than other nations.Replies: @Colin Wright
Actually, the overwhelming majority of Armenian Americans who immigrated from the Soviet Union are Western Armenians.
There were two groups of people allowed to emigrate from the Soviet Union: Jews and Armenian repatriants.
In the 1940s USSR launched a repatriation campaign for Armenians living abroad, so many Western Armenians from countries like Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, and Greece came to Soviet Armenia. After some time most of them realized they didn’t want to live under communism and moved to Los Angeles, where their relatives had been living. Local Armenians weren’t allowed to emigrate.
So most of those “yan” Armenians in LA are actually Western Armenians, like “ian” Armenians from Lebanon, Syria etc
However, the biggest Armenian community in LA are immigrants from Iran and they are mostly Eastern Armenians with last names ending in “-ian”.
If anything, there isn’t any significant genetic difference between Western and Eastern Armenians.
About 1/3 of Armenia’s population are Western Armenians whose ancestors fled the Ottoman Empire, there are entire provinces which are mostly populated by them and they don’t stand out in any way.
Aren’t Greek Americans disproportionately Anatolian? At the very least they’re certainly a very strong presence in the community.
To pour more oil on the fire. We are in the looting stage of the empire’s decline.
I don’t know who I regret voting for more, Romney or McCain. Both self-righteous preening jackasses.
https://youtu.be/RqynXNBiwGo?si=1_zZOBpfXF60RGEZReplies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
On the main drag in heavily Armenian Glendale, not far from the Glendale Grove, there is a Georgian restaurant. I always wondered how different the cuisine might be from the Hai, and whether there were a lot of amusing fights.
“If the Soviet Union attacked Turkey from the rear, would Greece help?”Replies: @Reg Cæsar
I told a joke similar to that to a Roman, but about sheep. He was surprised it was about Greeks; to Italians, that’s a Sardinian thing.
Interestingly, the Italian was in America to study wolves. There were only ca. 300 at the time in all of Italy, but they’ve rebounded to ten times that.
My friend did his job. (He’s cited in Wikipedia’s notes.) Where would his hometown be without wolves?
So it could be possible that the "IANs" emigrated from Armenia before Sovietization, whereas the "YANs" (where the Y is the Cyrillic "ya" backwards R letter transliterating from the Armenian language into Russian) emigrated from Armenia after Sovietization. The "IANs" were more respectable than the cynical "YANs."Replies: @Dutch Boy, @Anonymous
Sovietization = demoralization, whatever one’s genetics.
Exceptions and contradictions abound, but I'd say this is the distinction -- as the words are understood today.Replies: @Anonymous
Nope. A nation is really the same thing as a tribe, although it tends to be greater in number of persons.
Some nations control territory and resources to greater or lesser extents than other nations.
A tribe makes no such attempt -- wouldn't even consider it. I can move to Oklahoma; I can't thereby become Cherokee. Even my grandchildren can't. Conversely, a Cherokee can indeed continue to be Cherokee wherever he is.
As I say, exceptions and contradictions abound -- but there really is a distinction. This is one of the problems at the moment. Jews are a tribe; not a nation. If they were a nation, conceptually they would have no problem with assimilating the Palestinians -- would even insist on it. But they're not, so such a resolution is inconceivable. It would be like demanding that the Cherokee add me to their rolls.
Armenian has two major dialects, Western, often spoken by the Armenian diaspora, and Eastern, concentrated in Armenia itself. I don’t know how mutually intelligible they are.
Some nations control territory and resources to greater or lesser extents than other nations.Replies: @Colin Wright
No it is not. That’s exactly my point. Nations, as a rule, tend to assign citizenship to anyone within their borders. A Ukrainian becomes a Canadian, an Ainu is Japanese, China right now is insisting that Uighers, Tibetan, et al are Chinese.
A tribe makes no such attempt — wouldn’t even consider it. I can move to Oklahoma; I can’t thereby become Cherokee. Even my grandchildren can’t. Conversely, a Cherokee can indeed continue to be Cherokee wherever he is.
As I say, exceptions and contradictions abound — but there really is a distinction. This is one of the problems at the moment. Jews are a tribe; not a nation. If they were a nation, conceptually they would have no problem with assimilating the Palestinians — would even insist on it. But they’re not, so such a resolution is inconceivable. It would be like demanding that the Cherokee add me to their rolls.
Is the Greek diaspora known for being shifty and treacherous in America? I lived in a heavily Greek area of NYC for a bit while growing up. They struck me as kinda generic Balkan-ish immigrants, somewhat poorer cousins of Italians in a manner of speaking.Replies: @kaganovitch, @Anon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3WN43la8iI&pp=ygUOUXVvIHZhZGlzIDIwMDk%3D
This version is closer to the book than the Hollywood version. One of the characters is Chilo the Greek.
So it could be possible that the "IANs" emigrated from Armenia before Sovietization, whereas the "YANs" (where the Y is the Cyrillic "ya" backwards R letter transliterating from the Armenian language into Russian) emigrated from Armenia after Sovietization. The "IANs" were more respectable than the cynical "YANs."Replies: @Dutch Boy, @Anonymous
I don’t know much about different groups of Armenians, but could the relatively brief period of Sovietization really cause such a significant difference, when ‘widespread dysfunction’ describes all post-Ottoman lands to some extent, and ‘Ottoman’ (or just ‘Turk’) is pretty much a byword for dishonesty in many of these places?
Would several decades of Sovietization really be any worse of an influence?