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From The Weekly Standard:

Civil Whites

Why are critics so deferential to the radicalism of Ta-Nehisi Coates?

AUG 17, 2015, VOL. 20, NO. 46 • BY CHRISTOPHER CALDWELL

Maybe “Culture Belongs to Everyone,” as they say at New York City’s Shakespeare in the Park shows, but the works of Atlantic essayist and blogger Ta-Nehisi Coates appear to exist in another realm altogether. In the weeks since the publication of Between the World and Me, Coates’s letter to his teenage son about the perils and promise of being black and male in America, critics have struggled to find adjectives to match his achievements. Carlos Lozada of the Washington Post summed up recent discussions of who counted as America’s foremost “public intellectual” by concluding: “Coates has won that title for himself, and it isn’t even close.” New York Times film reviewer A.O. Scott tweeted: “ ‘Must read’ doesn’t even come close. This from @tanehisicoates is essential, like water or air.”

The book’s devotees ask not just whether we can “come close” to fathoming its genius but whether we, and especially the whites among us, have the moral standing even to aspire to. The novelist Michael Chabon begs pardon:

I know that this book is addressed to the author’s son, and by obvious analogy to all boys and young men of color as they pass, inexorably, into harm’s way. I hope that I will be forgiven, then, for feeling that Ta-Nehisi Coates was speaking to me, too, one father to another, teaching me that real courage is the courage to be vulnerable. …

For decades, several books every publishing season have promised an “authentic” account of the experience of being black in America. But the 39-year-old Coates, a Baltimore native, has struck it very big. We learn from New York magazine that he even shows up late for meetings with the president. Coates claims as his model a classic of the black autobiographical genre, James Baldwin’s The Fire Next Time (1963). It is not immediately clear, though, what distinguishes Coates’s effort from the heap of less distinguished books written in Baldwin’s wake. To figure this out one must look at “The Case for Reparations,” a 16,000-word essay Coates wrote for the Atlantic last year, which won him a wide Internet following. …

A hallmark of Coates’s style is the lurid metaphor that blurs the past and the present, the imaginary and the real, and incites ideological combat. “In America,” he writes, “there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife.”

From this point, Coates orates, rather than reasons, his way to a reinterpretation of American history. The key concept is “plunder.” White Americans did not, as the heroic narrative of civil rights would have it, move from enslaving blacks to excluding them, and then, starting in the 1950s, steadily break down the exclusion until we reached the more equal world of today. No—Coates’s argument is one of “structural racism.” To this day, society is structured so that whites can continue to rip off blacks. Indeed, they cannot do without blacks, whose exploitation is their main source of prosperity.

Lincoln noted in 1865:

Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”

And of course that’s pretty much what happened. The South was poor for the century after 1865 until it could rebuild itself along Northern corporate business lines, in which African-Americans are of course of minor importance.

Black slaves were highly profitable workers during the King Cotton era of a few decades immediately before the Civil War. Before that, they were of modest importance, which is why slavery faded out in the North and was almost abolished by the legislature of Virginia, a state with a fading tobacco economy, in 1831. But the opening up of cotton belt states and very high prices paid for cotton by the English Midlands factories created a cotton bubble in the middle of the 19th Century. Of course, the Civil War popped that by not only sheer physical destruction, but by causing other places around the world such as Brazil, Egypt, and India to start producing much more cotton, preventing the post-War South from ever returning to its generation of cotton-based prosperity.

Without importing black slaves, the intensive populating of states like Alabama and Mississippi would have been delayed until electricity for electrical fans and other technological innovations, including modern medicine, made these latitudes more habitable by white people, just as Florida, which is even further South, was only lightly populated until late in the 19th Century or so.

But then there would have been no Civil War to destroy so much accumulated wealth on both sides and to depress the South economically and psychologically for so long afterward, either. So it’s difficult to imagine much negative impact on American per capita wealth in 2015 in an alternate universe without the slave trade.

You can tell that nobody takes very seriously the argument that African-Americans have been much of an economic boon for white Americans since 1860 by how so much black economic resentment in recent years is focused upon, say, white rappers like Macklemore for “appropriating” black innovations in popular music.

But outside of a handful of areas like pop music, it’s hard to make up a list of how blacks have, on net, made whites much money over the last 150 years, and easy, if forbidden, to notice how blacks destroyed many white urban homeowners’ net worths in the postwar era. If blacks were such moneymakers for white elites, you wouldn’t see white elites so unified in their urge to import immigrants to propel African-Americans out of elite cities, which is behind much of the furious Establishment denunciations of Donald Trump, that class traitor.

… But he does come up with a basis for a “bottom line”: the difference between black and white per capita income, multiplied by the population of blacks, to be paid each year for “a decade or two.” It is a figure that would today come to between $4 and $9 trillion (between a quarter and half the U.S. GDP), to be supplemented perhaps by “a program of job training and public works that takes racial justice as its mission but includes the poor of all races.”

One more element in this view of reparations should detain us, and it is the key element: The reparations under discussion will not discharge the debt whites owe to blacks. “We may find,” Coates writes, “that the country can never fully repay African Americans.” What he is proposing is ultimately less a regime of reparations for blacks (since nothing can be fully “repaired”) than a program of infinite penance for whites. To judge from the reaction to Coates’s book, white intellectuals are ready to endorse this idea almost unanimously.

One black thinker is less convinced:

 
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  1. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Coates wants freebies for blacks cuz blacks suck at making wealth, but he’s too sham-proud to beg for it.

    So, he invokes slavery to make his demand for freebies seem morally justified.

    It’d be nice if we could give blacks a big fat reparation on condition that they return to Africa.

  2. A Bro Token.

    A Broken.

    Every generation has to elevate someone to THE NEGRO PUBLIC INTELLECTUAL OF THE HOUR.

    It was once Cornel West. Now, it’s Coates.

    I guess Coates was partly playing for that role. He got it.

    In a way, white folks might be warming up to him cuz his book is sort of sappy in aksing for mercy for the po’ black body.

    Less threatening than muscled rapper saying “gonna kill you, honkey.”

  3. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Of course, NY Libs love to yammer about poor poor black bodies. They are trying to hide in rhetoric what they do in fact.

    In FACT, NY began to fall apart since the 60s when Negroes gained greater freedom and power and began to rampage around and commit violence and crime all over. With civil liberties lawyers on the side of Negroes, cops couldn’t do much. So, Negroes began to prey on white libs, Jews, homos, and etc.

    Things got worse in 70s and 80s. It was mostly due to black crime.
    White Libs desperately elected David Stinkin Dinkins in the hope that the Nice Negro would make things better and control his Negro kin. But things got even worse. So, NYers incredibly went with Giuliani the republican and re-elected him for his get-tough-on-negro policies. And NY began to change. And then centrist law-and-order Bloomberg was elected three times, and he also used tough policies to control the blacks.
    So, NY became the capital of STOP AND FRISK THEM NEGROES.

    And this is why NY made a great comeback. By profiling, frisking, and jailing black bodies. NYers were less worried about terrorism–except around 9/11 era–than about black crime.
    So, NY did its best to arrest blacks, and of course Clinton worked with Giuliani as the Clinton administration locked up record number of blacks. Clinton also worked with Cisneros to send urban blacks to small towns and suburbs, thus making big cities whiter, more homo, more Asian, and more Jewish. And more ‘immigrant’, as in docile labor for the urban gentry class.

    Anyway, the revival of NY had to do with clamping down on black bodies(and sending a good number to places outside NY), but NY Libs don’t want to admit it. So, at least in rhetoric, they profusely shower praise on Coates when, in fact,they are afraid of black bodies cuz blacks are naturally stronger and more aggressive.

    Mask with rhetoric what they really support in fact. In FACT, white Libs support tough policies that deal with the Negro crime/violence problem. But in WORDS, they act they care so very much about them poor poor Negroes. They want police to lock up the Negro but they whimper ‘save the negro’ for public consumption.

    They wanna see the judge throw the book at Negro thugs but they pretend to read TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD for the umpteenth time.

  4. By strange coincidence the restaurant I wanted to eat at last night in West Village was closed for Ta-Nehisi Coate’s private birthday party. Its a tiny place so I was able to peek inside and see the whole crowd. It had about 4-5 black people and a 100 white people.

  5. OT:

    The long term effects of surviving Ebola are becoming clearer. Blindness and birth defects, nothing to worry about:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/08/07/ebola-survivors-health-complications/31296625/

  6. “The South was poor for the century after 1865 until it could rebuild itself along Northern corporate business lines, in which African-Americans are of course of minor importance.”

    Economically, the unpleasantness of 1861-’65 is the American version of the conflict between agricultural and industrial interests that manifested itself elsewhere in the world at about the same time, though without the added complication of slavery. In Britain, for example, the landed gentry favored agricultural protectionism through the Corn Laws; the rising captains of industry wanted free trade and other laissez-faire policies summarized by the soubriquet “Manchester liberalism.” Here it was the reverse: Southern planters wanted free trade, so they could send their cotton and tobacco to England in return for its industrial products, which were both better and cheaper than those made in the northern U.S. On the other hand, the mill owners and financiers of New England supported protective tariffs to nurture their fledgling industry.

    In both cases, the ascendant class won, with the result that there was an agricultural depression both in the Old World and the New. However, in New England the industrial party were able to cloak their economic self-interest behind the moral posturing of abolitionism, as in the case of Gerrit Smith, one of the backers of John Brown’s raid on Harper’s Ferry. Slavery had ceased to be profitable to the North after 1 January of 1808, when U.S. law forbade the further importation of slaves – and so nothing stood in the way of Northern abolitionism as an economic strategy against the South.

    The South was the richest part of the antebellum U.S., and in one fell stroke was rendered the poorest by the passage of the 13th amendment. Blacks ceased to be assets, and have ever since then been liabilities – which, if Ta-Nehesi Coates had his way, would be bottomless.

    • Replies: @n/a
    @Crawfurdmuir

    "However, in New England the industrial party were able to cloak their economic self-interest behind the moral posturing of abolitionism, as in the case of Gerrit Smith, one of the backers of John Brown’s raid on Harper’s Ferry."

    Gerrit Smith was from New York and as far as I know had no New England ancestry. He was mostly Dutch with some Scottish and Irish or Scotch-Irish, and his family's wealth stemmed from early land grants rather than nascent industry.

  7. And of course that’s pretty much what happened. The South was poor for the century after 1865 until it could rebuild itself along Northern corporate business lines, in which African-Americans are of course of minor importance.

    On a per capita basis, the South was poor prior to 1865.The Cotton Boom created fortunes for slave traders and the owners of large cotton plantations, but it didn’t do much for the South as a whole.For example, just compare things like White literacy rates in Massachusetts and Mississippi, infrastructure (railways, steel-mills) etc.Visitors from Northern states to the South were always shocked by how poor so many of the native Whites were.In the North, that kind of poverty was largely confined to recent immigrants, particularly the Catholic Irish.

    And the lack of development in the South extended to the arts and the sciences:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.

    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    • Replies: @Honesthughgrant
    @syonredux


    On a per capita basis, the South was poor prior to 1865.The Cotton Boom created fortunes for slave traders and the owners of large cotton plantations, but it didn’t do much for the South as a whole.
     
    Agree completely. People can go read the 1860 census for the facts. In 1860, 90% of the industry was outside the Confederacy. And look at the urban population. In 1860 you had 4.5 million Americans living in towns/cities with more then 5, 000 people. 90% of the them lived in the North (including Mo, Kentucky, and Maryland). In fact, Philadelphia had as many people as all the other large Southern cities put together (excluding New Orleans). Further, while the North was already using Farm machinery on a large scale in 1860, something the South wouldn't do for another 50 years.

    The Confederacy had a real problem during the Civil war because almost all the Iron and Railroad industry was in the North.
    , @Luke Lea
    @syonredux

    re: the undeveloped character of the pre-Civil War South.

    Frederick Law Olmstead's Cotton Kingdom is an invaluable first-hand report of what conditions were like. The majority of slave owner's, if not the majority of slaves, worked on small farms shoulder to shoulder with their Red Neck masters who typically owned but one or two slaves, and they ate around the same dinner table in the evenings and slept under the same roof.. There were a lot of poor whites and n'er-do-wells he encountered on the back roads. One was complaining about a new man in the neighborhood, a Calvinist Presbyterian. What's wrong with him? Olmstead asked. All they do is save, the man replied. There are a lot of good vignettes like that.

    The best eye-witness account of conditions on a big plantation I have ever encountered was written by the English actress Fannie Kemble, a talented writer and keen observer. She married a man who owned the biggest plantation in St. Simons (where I lived last year btw) and what she describes was in many ways a kind of semi-welfare state half-populated by the sick, the lame, and the old, pitiful people who were continuously besieging her for special favors and handouts. Unlike in the North, those who couldn't work were not turned out on the streets.

    , @AP
    @syonredux


    And the lack of development in the South extended to the arts and the sciences
     
    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O'Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.

    Replies: @syonredux

  8. Good old Dishonest Abe. trying to fob off his war-crimes as “the work of the Lord.”

  9. Caldwell’s review is incredible.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @FredR

    Indeed, I feel the need to sit with it in order to ensure the testimony is respected.

  10. New York Times film reviewer A.O. Scott tweeted: “ ‘Must read’ doesn’t even come close. This from @tanehisicoates is essential, like water or air.”

    I can think of a handful of human intellectual achievements that merit something like that level of praise: Darwin’s On the Origin of Species, Newton’s Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica , Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason, etc

    TNC’s recent emotional outburst is not in the same category

    • Agree: SPMoore8, tbraton, Clyde
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @syonredux

    "TNC’s recent emotional outburst is not in the same category"

    Perhaps TNC could at least equal Copernicus with his next book, entitled: "On the Revolutions of Black Bodies".

  11. Every ten years of so another “important” black “intellectual” voice comes round demanding something or another for no damn good reason. It’s all the same old same old, they were enslaved by their African brethren, the slaves shipped to the west were not the strongest, the brightest, the hardest fighters, the hardest workers, they were the ones that were captured and found not worthy to go into the communal cooking pot in Dahomey and other wonderous spots on the slave coast of Africa not worthy of being breeding stock for their African owners.
    Docile to the max they worked the sugar plantations of the Caribbean and Brazil and Cuba ( until the 1890’s).
    So net out the cost to the USA of having them around for all these years since they were emancipated, and the cost of food, shelter, health, retirement while involuntarily employed against the extra income they supposedly generated during the 20 years or so of King Cotton, small holder tobacco, rice and indigo. Divide the resulting negative number by some large number and send them the bills coming due.
    You carry some on your backs long enough and they begin to think you are their own personal jackass. You set them down and give them a city to rule and administer and improve and you get ( take you pick(s)) Detroit, Gary, Newark, Baltimore, St. Louis, Birmingham, Selma, Atlanta, etc. etc.
    Give them a company to administer and you get McDonalds.
    Give them a country and you get Zimbabwe, The Union of South Africa, Nigeria, Equatorial Guinea, etc.
    Give them a chance to run from their countries and they run to civilizations created by northern Europeans. Maybe they would try to run to India or Pakistan or Vietnam or Israel but
    those places are inhospitable to them
    That degreed white folks find these authors important and deep and intellectual is an indictment of the level of intellectuality in the USA today.
    And you should have put a trigger warning somewhere before the article; the violent spew almost dampened my keyboard.
    Leave it to some half-wit mag to quote the sainted Abe. Such a schmendrick he was.

    • Agree: Nico
    • Replies: @tbraton
    @CK

    "Give them a chance to run from their countries and they run to civilizations created by northern Europeans. "

    And why not? According to that picture posted by Steve Sailer last week, black refugees from Africa who land in England are put up in rather posh hotels and are served tea in silver utensils. Probably the first they have seen in their lives.

  12. Do we even have the moral standing to give our money to these dear angels? I think.not.

  13. iSteveFan says:

    So it’s difficult to imagine much negative impact on American per capita wealth in 2015 in an alternate universe without the slave trade.

    Just compare Canada which had a very limited amount of slavery with Brazil, the all time king of slave holding nations. Though Brazil currently has a GDP nearly twice the amount of Canada, it also has five times the population. If slavery where the golden ticket, Brazil would have per capita GDP rates exceeding Canada’s and rivaling the USA’s.

  14. iSteveFan says:

    One more element in this view of reparations should detain us, and it is the key element: The reparations under discussion will not discharge the debt whites owe to blacks. “We may find,” Coates writes, “that the country can never fully repay African Americans.” What he is proposing is ultimately less a regime of reparations for blacks (since nothing can be fully “repaired”) than a program of infinite penance for whites. To judge from the reaction to Coates’s book, white intellectuals are ready to endorse this idea almost unanimously.

    Has America’s foremost public intellectual, and his sycophant white intellectuals, taken into consideration how this endless stream of white reparations is going to continue when the nation is no longer white?

    Maybe that could be the straw that breaks the immigration camel’s back. We have to ensure America has a healthy supply of whites to continue paying the reparations bill.

    • Agree: Travis
  15. Either critics have lost sight that there is such a thing as an unworthy book on a worthy subject; or they are too terrified of being tarred as racists even to give an accurate description of a book about race.

    I am putting my money more on the latter, but both are in play. Just generally speaking, the groveling associated with the publication of this book indicates not only a basic absence of integrity and emotional and preening groupthink among the media but also the jettisoning of any kind of intellectual standards. I don’t know if I can take any of these people seriously again (Well, to be honest I didn’t take most of them seriously to begin with.)

    I have been reading TNC for years, I think he’s basically a nice guy with no illusions about himself, but calling him erudite on any subject is absurd. What he is is a black guy who knows how he grew up, knows what his father taught him, knows that he wants to protect his son, gets choked up reading about black kids sold down the river 150 years ago, and flirts with the idea of righteous violence. It’s good that he only flirts: this way at least he is well on the way to funding his son’s college education.

    Outstanding review by Caldwell, but the proposed agenda that he teases out of TNC’s writings is inchoate and could never be implemented in practice. There are two main reasons for this, both tied to the notion of incentives. In the first place, if no amount of payments will lead to absolution, then why bother making any payments at all? Second, if payments (I gather checks for some thousands or tens of thousands every year) are simply handed out to anyone who can claim to be a “black person” for ten (or twenty!) years, with no strings attached, then there is on the one hand no incentive to use that compensatory gesture positively or productively (compare affirmative action) and on the other hand opens the door wide for fraud.

    Bottom line, TNC is a cheerleader for his tribe, but his tribe is Black People. That’s OK. What’s not OK is that he rationalizes any failure or difficulty or problems in the black community by vaguely blaming it on Whitey. That is not OK, and it is also potentially dangerous. I have, for example, been a loud critic of white on black violence, including police violence against blacks, for a number of years. But after drawing attention to the problem, you then have to deal with the facts. To mis-characterize the shooting of Michael Brown (“the murderers of MB”?!?) and Eric Garner (to name two) was not only stupid and inaccurate but also incendiary and fundamentally dishonest. I cannot understand why he should be allowed to get away with this.

    • Replies: @unit472
    @SPMoore8

    There comes a point where you have to call a turd a turd and not dance around it with nuanced discussion of it being an unpleasant secretion or a necessary biological function. To call the events in Ferguson a 'mis-characterization' speaks of a timidity or squeamishness to confront the BS that emanates from this clown Coates. He has no academic or intellectual legitimacy and his 'ideas', if you want to call them that, are just the standard caterwauling of blacks used to excuse black failure.

    As William F. Buckley famously quipped, you could move the population of Haiti to Switzerland and the Swiss to Haiti and in a generation you'd have an Alpine hell and a tropical paradise. That is why the notion of 'reparations' can never be realized. The wealth of a people or nation is the sum of the knowledge, talents and efforts of a people and those cannot be 'transferred'.

    Replies: @Jefferson

  16. Why are critics so deferential to the radicalism of Ta-Nehisi Coates?

    So, just to be clear, what critics are we talking about?

  17. Reparation Now! Reparation Tomorrow! Reparation Forever!

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Mr. Anon

    re: reparations

    Isn't the privilege of living in America reparations enough? If you take advantage of it (which Coates is btw) you profit from all that accumulated capital wealth, the investment of which makes affluence and freedom possible. What Coates doesn't grasp is that the process of accumulation was global in scope: there was crime and exploitation, some of it far worse than anything that happened in America, on every continent save Antarctica. Fortunately for us today a lot of that wealth was not wasted and consumed, as it had been in pre-modern times, but was invested by Europeans, Jew and Christian alike, who used it to finance the Industrial Revolution and everything that followed. So, yes, a terrible human price was paid to build the modern world. But all our ancestors paid it, not just his alone. Whether we deserve it or not we are all joint heirs in Christ, to quote from the scriptures.

  18. I can understand the notion of reparations – I mean these are the richest, most successful black people in the history of the world.

    I do think, though, that it would be gauche to force them to pay for being delivered from benighted Africa. Just a hearty thank you should suffice.

    • Replies: @Pete
    @Cloud of Probable Matricide

    "When I saw Africa, I was damn glad my granpappy got on that boat!" —Muhammad Ali

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @Anonymous
    @Cloud of Probable Matricide

    Yes indeed. GDP of North America is twenty times that of Africa. You're welcome TNC.

  19. “Carlos Lozada of the Washington Post summed up recent discussions of who counted as America’s foremost “public intellectual” by concluding: “Coates has won that title for himself, and it isn’t even close.””

    I can already foresee the time when the term “America’s foremost public intellectual” will be used euphemistically, as in: Did you see the news? A flash-mob of America’s foremost public intellectuals robbed a convenience store in St. Louis.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Mr. Anon

    There has to be a "most" before it, such as in "America's most foremost public intellectual" since that the way TNC used it when he was aroused by a Melissa Harris-Perry or whatever her name is. That way it sounds even dumber.

    I also agree that "most foremost public intellectual" could become a "dog whistle" for "racism" in the same way that there is always an awkward pause when someone like Joe Biden characterizes a "black person" as "clean" and "articulate"because, after all, it implies that everyone else is filthy and incapable of speaking at a level beyond eight years old. This is how persecution leads to persecution mania and ends up in paranoia: whatever you say, it's some kind of secret code imparting negative signifying. And if you don't say anything it also signifies racism. Lose/lose.

    Actually, "African American" and "AA" have already become the most recent epithets to indicate scorn towards the conduct of black people. This is because you can legislate language but you cannot legislate the sentiment or the conduct to which the language refers.

    , @Danindc
    @Mr. Anon

    Ha! I'm stealing that one. Thanks in advance.

    , @Ivy
    @Mr. Anon

    The logical extension of the concept is thus: Undocumented public intellectual.

  20. What could possibly go wrong taxing Whitey to give to Oprah and Obama and the families of Mchael Brown? Forever?

  21. It reminds me of the Bolligner affirmative action case, in which O’Connor said

    The Court takes the Law School at its word that it would like nothing better than to find a race-neutral admissions formula and will terminate its use of racial preferences as soon as practicable. The Court expects that 25 years from now, the use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary to further the interest approved today.

    We’re halfway through that 25 year period with no signs of race neutrality being accepted by the likes of TNC.

  22. “In America,” he writes, “there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife.”

    Look at the stupid mismatch. He goes from “you” to “the assailant”.

  23. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    If bros want reps, they better demand it quick cuz a browning America care less about the slavery jazz.

    PS. What about black Africans?

    Must the West take them in as reparation of not having brought them to America long ago?

    West is blamed for having brought blacks to the West.
    West is blamed for not having brought blacks to the West.

  24. @Mr. Anon
    "Carlos Lozada of the Washington Post summed up recent discussions of who counted as America’s foremost “public intellectual” by concluding: “Coates has won that title for himself, and it isn’t even close.”"

    I can already foresee the time when the term "America's foremost public intellectual" will be used euphemistically, as in: Did you see the news? A flash-mob of America's foremost public intellectuals robbed a convenience store in St. Louis.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Danindc, @Ivy

    There has to be a “most” before it, such as in “America’s most foremost public intellectual” since that the way TNC used it when he was aroused by a Melissa Harris-Perry or whatever her name is. That way it sounds even dumber.

    I also agree that “most foremost public intellectual” could become a “dog whistle” for “racism” in the same way that there is always an awkward pause when someone like Joe Biden characterizes a “black person” as “clean” and “articulate”because, after all, it implies that everyone else is filthy and incapable of speaking at a level beyond eight years old. This is how persecution leads to persecution mania and ends up in paranoia: whatever you say, it’s some kind of secret code imparting negative signifying. And if you don’t say anything it also signifies racism. Lose/lose.

    Actually, “African American” and “AA” have already become the most recent epithets to indicate scorn towards the conduct of black people. This is because you can legislate language but you cannot legislate the sentiment or the conduct to which the language refers.

  25. The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn’t know what “abeyance” means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.

    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. “the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris”? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?

    This is the writing that AO Scott of the New York Times describes as “Must read’ doesn’t even come close. This from @tanehisicoates is essential, like water or air.”

    • Agree: SPMoore8
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @Lot

    Good analysis. Yeah, the first time I read that sentence I figured TNC ate a too ripe piece of anchovy pizza and his alimentary canal was lodging a formal protest. The second time I read it I figured he was telling his son about some private convo on the Metro. I was unable to figure out what "abeyance" has to do with anything.

    However, having thought about it for ten minutes I think (a) he got the world "abeyance" while reading about real estate in Chicago, (b) he got the word "obeisance" from studying French (it is of course a perfectly normal English word also for "homage") and he confused the two.

    So I think what he's trying to say is that he and his son had a bumpy ride on Le Metro, his son was frighted, and his Dad, sagely aware that the comet lurking in a holding pattern over Orly waiting to shatter their black bodies once it received orders from the Police Benevolent Association, suggested that the ride was due to a volcano. Or something like that.

    At any rate a halfway decent editor would have caught and asked, and then fixed. But you know how editors don't like to change a thing when dealing with Scripture ......

    , @Kyle McKenna
    @Lot

    Perhaps it was just another Negro Appropriation of Prepositions, as they do like to do so much. For example, Shirley Q complaining about the heat: "you can sho' nuff tell behind this humidity."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ta--QeqWCs

    Now don't even argue--she's a lot more African than Rachel Dolezal. A lot mo'

    , @FactsAreImportant
    @Lot


    The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn’t know what “abeyance” means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.

    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. “the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris”? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?
     

    I've run into this before when dealing with black "intellectuals".

    It is gibberish. Big and pretentious words strung together with no logical linkages. They have memorized the words and know enough syntax and grammar to string them into apparently coherent phrases. But, the logic constantly breaks down, and, at its worst, the phrases don't even make sense.

    Schizophrenics (honest-to-God schizophrenics, not metaphorical schizophrenics) write and speak the same way. Individual phrases make sense, but there are constant shifts in the narrative or the logic every few sentences or phrases.

    It is intentional. When you begin to show you comprehend their fraudulence, they shift into hyper-gibberish mode to intimidate you into thinking you haven't understood their profundity because your are stupid or don't understand blacks, and if that doesn't work, to dare you to call them on it out loud. Almost no one speaks up because almost everyone desperately wants them to be authentic.

    Replies: @Danindc, @Pete

  26. ” . . . black economic resentment in recent years is focused upon, say, white rappers like Macklemore for ‘appropriating’ black innovations in popular music.”

    I have long resented the “appropriating” by blacks of white musical instruments. 😉

    By the way, I think reparations should first come from other Africans whose people sent the slaves away.

    • Replies: @CK
    @4teepee

    That would be refunds not reparations.

  27. It’s been the Roundhead versus the Cavaliers for a long time. Even after the the Roundhead in America vanquished the American Cavaliers, they still make war on their decedents.

    http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=5126

    There’s no reasoning with fanatics.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @The Z Blog

    I think you mean 'descendants', though as the Confederate flag flap shows, they also make war on their decedents.

  28. @Mr. Anon
    "Carlos Lozada of the Washington Post summed up recent discussions of who counted as America’s foremost “public intellectual” by concluding: “Coates has won that title for himself, and it isn’t even close.”"

    I can already foresee the time when the term "America's foremost public intellectual" will be used euphemistically, as in: Did you see the news? A flash-mob of America's foremost public intellectuals robbed a convenience store in St. Louis.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Danindc, @Ivy

    Ha! I’m stealing that one. Thanks in advance.

  29. To judge from the reaction to Coates’s book, white intellectuals are ready to endorse this idea almost unanimously.

    Absolutely not. They never put any skin in the game. They are always demanding that their enemies integrate, never themselves. The way they seek to deploy integration makes it clear that they subconsciously recognize it as punishment.

    They never reason, “25 percent of Democratic Party voters are black, so 25 percent of my fellow progressive-minded liberal-arts professors should be black; it’s the least we can do.”

    They tout affirmative action, then bemoan the incompetence of Fannie, of Freddie, of the DC Metro.

  30. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Does Coates ever write about American Indians? Presumably if he ever does think or write about them, it’s in a way that serves his general pro-black/anti-white paradigm. But it’s interesting to note that he seems to more or less ignore them altogether, which is odd since an obvious implication of his grievance narrative is that Indians have claims against blacks. The fact that he isn’t even compelled to address this just demonstrates how blatantly self-serving his writing is.

    • Agree: Nico
    • Replies: @Pete
    @Anonymous

    Blacks in general don't seem to identify with other "marginalized" groups as much as they see them as threats to their control of the highly lucrative grievance industry.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @Pete
    @Anonymous

    I think the central message to all of Coates' work and the work of black writers like him boils down to a reimagining of the famous Marx quote thusly: "To blacks according to their wants, from Whites according to their abilities."

  31. @SPMoore8
    Either critics have lost sight that there is such a thing as an unworthy book on a worthy subject; or they are too terrified of being tarred as racists even to give an accurate description of a book about race.

    I am putting my money more on the latter, but both are in play. Just generally speaking, the groveling associated with the publication of this book indicates not only a basic absence of integrity and emotional and preening groupthink among the media but also the jettisoning of any kind of intellectual standards. I don't know if I can take any of these people seriously again (Well, to be honest I didn't take most of them seriously to begin with.)

    I have been reading TNC for years, I think he's basically a nice guy with no illusions about himself, but calling him erudite on any subject is absurd. What he is is a black guy who knows how he grew up, knows what his father taught him, knows that he wants to protect his son, gets choked up reading about black kids sold down the river 150 years ago, and flirts with the idea of righteous violence. It's good that he only flirts: this way at least he is well on the way to funding his son's college education.

    Outstanding review by Caldwell, but the proposed agenda that he teases out of TNC's writings is inchoate and could never be implemented in practice. There are two main reasons for this, both tied to the notion of incentives. In the first place, if no amount of payments will lead to absolution, then why bother making any payments at all? Second, if payments (I gather checks for some thousands or tens of thousands every year) are simply handed out to anyone who can claim to be a "black person" for ten (or twenty!) years, with no strings attached, then there is on the one hand no incentive to use that compensatory gesture positively or productively (compare affirmative action) and on the other hand opens the door wide for fraud.

    Bottom line, TNC is a cheerleader for his tribe, but his tribe is Black People. That's OK. What's not OK is that he rationalizes any failure or difficulty or problems in the black community by vaguely blaming it on Whitey. That is not OK, and it is also potentially dangerous. I have, for example, been a loud critic of white on black violence, including police violence against blacks, for a number of years. But after drawing attention to the problem, you then have to deal with the facts. To mis-characterize the shooting of Michael Brown ("the murderers of MB"?!?) and Eric Garner (to name two) was not only stupid and inaccurate but also incendiary and fundamentally dishonest. I cannot understand why he should be allowed to get away with this.

    Replies: @unit472

    There comes a point where you have to call a turd a turd and not dance around it with nuanced discussion of it being an unpleasant secretion or a necessary biological function. To call the events in Ferguson a ‘mis-characterization’ speaks of a timidity or squeamishness to confront the BS that emanates from this clown Coates. He has no academic or intellectual legitimacy and his ‘ideas’, if you want to call them that, are just the standard caterwauling of blacks used to excuse black failure.

    As William F. Buckley famously quipped, you could move the population of Haiti to Switzerland and the Swiss to Haiti and in a generation you’d have an Alpine hell and a tropical paradise. That is why the notion of ‘reparations’ can never be realized. The wealth of a people or nation is the sum of the knowledge, talents and efforts of a people and those cannot be ‘transferred’.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @unit472

    "As William F. Buckley famously quipped, you could move the population of Haiti to Switzerland and the Swiss to Haiti and in a generation you’d have an Alpine hell and a tropical paradise. That is why the notion of ‘reparations’ can never be realized. The wealth of a people or nation is the sum of the knowledge, talents and efforts of a people and those cannot be ‘transferred’."

    Switzerland never gets credit from The Left Wing Megaphone for being a very successful vibrantly diverse Multilingual and Multi ethnic country where you have Italian, French, and German speakers/descendents all peacefully living side by side with no Balkans style ethnic conflict of violence. Apparently Switzerland's diversity is not The Left Wing Megaphone's favorite type of diversity. It's not their cup of tea.

  32. @Lot
    The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn't know what "abeyance" means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.
     
    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. "the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris"? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?

    This is the writing that AO Scott of the New York Times describes as "Must read’ doesn’t even come close. This from @tanehisicoates is essential, like water or air."

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Kyle McKenna, @FactsAreImportant

    Good analysis. Yeah, the first time I read that sentence I figured TNC ate a too ripe piece of anchovy pizza and his alimentary canal was lodging a formal protest. The second time I read it I figured he was telling his son about some private convo on the Metro. I was unable to figure out what “abeyance” has to do with anything.

    However, having thought about it for ten minutes I think (a) he got the world “abeyance” while reading about real estate in Chicago, (b) he got the word “obeisance” from studying French (it is of course a perfectly normal English word also for “homage”) and he confused the two.

    So I think what he’s trying to say is that he and his son had a bumpy ride on Le Metro, his son was frighted, and his Dad, sagely aware that the comet lurking in a holding pattern over Orly waiting to shatter their black bodies once it received orders from the Police Benevolent Association, suggested that the ride was due to a volcano. Or something like that.

    At any rate a halfway decent editor would have caught and asked, and then fixed. But you know how editors don’t like to change a thing when dealing with Scripture ……

  33. A few other random examples of really awful prose:

    From page 107:

    It had to be nails driven through tongue and ears pruned away. “Some disobedience,” wrote a Southern mistress

    It could only be the employment of carriage whips, tongs, iron pokers, handsaws, stones, paperweights, or whatever might be handy to break the black body, the black family, the black community, the black nation. The bodies were pulverized into stock and marked with insurance. And the bodies were an aspiration, lucrative as Indian land, a veranda, a beautiful wife, or a summer home in the mountains. For the men who needed to believe themselves white, the bodies were the key to a social club, and the right to break the bodies was the mark of civilization.

    “Pulverized into stock”? As in stock in a company? Or cooking stock? Or what? Pulverized means turned into powder, so soup stock makes more sense, though I think the way you make it is by boiling down. But then the stock “is marked with insurance.” How do you mark anything with insurance, much less a financial instrument and/or soup ingredient?

    This greatest most essential book ever seems more to me like the work of a ranting schizophrenic.

    Go ahead and try to make sense of this passage, other “Whites suck and are responsible for blacks killing each other in Baltimore all the time”:

    Disembodiment is a kind of terrorism, and the threat of it alters the orbit of all our lives and, like terrorism, this distortion is intentional. Disembodiment. The dragon that compelled the boys I knew, way back, into extravagant theater of ownership. Disembodiment. The demon that pushed the middle-class black survivors into aggressive passivity, our conversation restrained in public quarters, our best manners on display, our hands never out of pockets, our whole manner ordered as if to say “I made no sudden moves.” Disembodiment. The serpent of school years, demanding I be twice as good, though I was but a boy. Murder was all around us and we knew, deep in ourselves, in some silent space, that the author of these murders was beyond us, that it suited some other person’s ends. We were right.

    Now you’d think he’d at least have some sort of definition or statement on what he means by “Disembodiment” leading up to this passage. Amazon text search shows, however, the word is used repeatedly in this paragraph, once 90 pages earlier in passing, and that’s it.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Lot

    All in all? Sounds like an elaborate justification and apologia for anti-white mayhem, which explains its irresistible appeal to white libs. And you can never claim reparations for anti-white violence, no matter how sadistic or widespread, since that violence is itself part of a reparations program.

    By the way: the only sane solution is SEPARATION. As I have said elsewhere, separation is the only scheme which will give all parties exactly what they deserve.

    , @Clyde
    @Lot

    Ta-Nehisi Coates has some Dylanesque imagery going on there with his rot about whites breaking black bodies with fireplace pokers and carriage whips. Maybe he is a pothead the way Jebitto was when he married that shrimpy wife. I am serious. Paris is very close to the marijuana paradise of Amsterdam.

    , @Pete
    @Lot

    "The bodies were pulverized into stock and marked with insurance."

    Perhaps this is an extremely clumsy way of saying that YT metaphorically converted the bodies into "stock" as in "cattle", and then branded the cattle with his mark to indicate ownership.

    Guy's a terrible writer. Bukowski had a great quote that relates to this aspect of Coate's writing, about the difference between art and the abstract. If I remember correctly, the gist of his quote that was that art lies in saying meaningful things in a new and original way, and abstraction is saying nothing by clumsily using words that don't mean anything in the attempt to sound artistic.

  34. @Mr. Anon
    "Carlos Lozada of the Washington Post summed up recent discussions of who counted as America’s foremost “public intellectual” by concluding: “Coates has won that title for himself, and it isn’t even close.”"

    I can already foresee the time when the term "America's foremost public intellectual" will be used euphemistically, as in: Did you see the news? A flash-mob of America's foremost public intellectuals robbed a convenience store in St. Louis.

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Danindc, @Ivy

    The logical extension of the concept is thus: Undocumented public intellectual.

  35. I would argue the reverse, the white people are owed reparations from blacks. There has been an enormous sink of money poured into these people, most out of misguided ideologies, and all of them are on the cusp of being shot down. To discuss the lack of effectiveness and the true reason for it is often immediately met with a knee jerk accusation of racism. Well, that dog won’t hunt anymore, and the accusation now is being ridiculed as the last ditch of those who have no other refutation than some ad hominem attack.

    I often wonder if the loss of manufacturing in the rust belt was due to blacks. It is noted how ineffective blacks were in steel working and other construction trades. Sure American labor costs more, but so is German, and Germany consistently delivers high quality high cost manufactured goods.

    During WWII, because so many white autoworkers were sent off to war, the migrations up into Detroit and the northern parts of Ohio by blacks from south offset the loses in white workers. There were significant riots in Detroit in 1943 due to these migrations:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_race_riot_of_1943

    So my question, is given the entry of black workers into the UAW, and the large percentage of blacks as auto workers, is it reasonable to assume that the drop in quality, the increase in costs, and the overall effectiveness of American auto workers, lead to the demise of the Auto and many other hard manufacturing sectors in the United States?

    But here is a very good and very thorough debunking of a claim for reparations from the blog For Those Who Can See. It is long and thoroughly based in data. The author provides ample charts and graphs.

    http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/2014/09/reparations-for-slavery.html

    I highly recommend it and any of the other writings by this author. All are thorough treatments of the issue, especially the essay Whack A Mole on why liberals move goal posts in education policy. Nothing works, a new excuse must be created to justify new policies and monies.

  36. >Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.<

    a nonsensical sentence, in a nonsensical book by a nonsensical clown author

  37. Steve, I’m surprised that in considering the economic return to slave labor, you of all people should overlook the I word!

    The end of the slave trade (1809?) created a shortage. If, instead, we’d had a big H1B slave immigration program right up to 1860, slaves would have been imported up to the point where their marginal value product equalized with the cost of basic subsistence.

    Of course, slaves being slaves, the rents were captured by the slave owners, which sucked for the slaves.

    • Replies: @oh its just me
    @International Jew

    ...but these days they'd spin it, they are not slaves, they are free market entrepreneurs repressed by the archaic idea of nation-state.

    , @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin
    @International Jew

    In other parts of the world they imported Indian & Chinese indentured servants after slavery ended to work on the plantations, perhaps the coolies were a forerunner of H1B program.

    Replies: @dravid

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @International Jew


    Of course, slaves being slaves, the rents were captured by the slave owners…

     

    The rents, and 60% of the representation, too.
  38. I wonder, if blacks themselves started to believe TNC’s nonsense, could that kick off a latter-day Afrozionist movement to depart for Liberia?

    Nah.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @International Jew


    could that kick off a latter-day Afrozionist movement to depart for Liberia?
     
    It's a darned good analogy, and appropriate for much of western Africa, not just Liberia. They don't like how they're treated in the West, they must return to their 'ancestral homeland' and the people there must move aside to make room. Why on earth don't they want to? Yes, that's rhetorical.
    , @Anonymous
    @International Jew

    I'm pretty sure that, like American Zionists, TNC and black radicals like him are already Afrozionists who support reparations and aid for Africa, like Zionists support WWII reparations and aid to Israel.

    , @David R. Merridale
    @International Jew

    Another question is, Do blacks read TNC?

  39. Ta-Nehisi Coates calls for endless reparations

    “Reparations today! Reparations Tomorrow!
    Reparations Forever!”

  40. “In America,” he writes, “there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife.”

    That is a particularly ill-considered allusion. When I think of someone being stabbed ten times the first thing that pops into my mind is a black man stabbing a white person, the second thing is a black man stabbing another black person, and only upon further thought do I conjure up the intended image of a white man stabbing black person. Honestly, how often does that ever happen?

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Harry Baldwin

    In real life, or in movies and television? Keep in mind that the latter two are nowadays far more 'real' to most Americans than the former.

  41. @International Jew
    I wonder, if blacks themselves started to believe TNC's nonsense, could that kick off a latter-day Afrozionist movement to depart for Liberia?

    Nah.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Anonymous, @David R. Merridale

    could that kick off a latter-day Afrozionist movement to depart for Liberia?

    It’s a darned good analogy, and appropriate for much of western Africa, not just Liberia. They don’t like how they’re treated in the West, they must return to their ‘ancestral homeland’ and the people there must move aside to make room. Why on earth don’t they want to? Yes, that’s rhetorical.

  42. Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.

    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC’s work, that “Whiteness” (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC’s part.Hegel’s theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the “Other”), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as “Other”), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to “Whites” (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. “Whites,” in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.

    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a “D.”

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @syonredux

    Forgot to block-quote the stuff at the top


    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC’s work, that “Whiteness” (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC’s part.Hegel’s theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the “Other”), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as “Other”), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to “Whites” (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. “Whites,” in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.

    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a “D.”

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @ivvenalis

    , @WhatEvvs
    @syonredux


    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium.
     
    Projection. Whiteness drives Coates crazy. It really does.

    Replies: @Anonymous Nephew

    , @Luke Lea
    @syonredux

    re: Hegel's master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was "I'd rather die than be a slave" and those whose motto was "I'd rather be a slave than die." This was a class distinction in European society, separating the nobility from the peasantry. I find it remarkable, for instance, in my reading of European history how ready the nobility were prepared to lead and if necessary to die in defense of their class interests, whether threatened domestically or by foreign foe. Honor was more important than survival at the top of society. You don't often see that kind of commitment among the elites in our democracy, at least not since WWII, individuals like Jim Webb being the exception that proves the rule.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @Luke Lea
    @syonredux

    re: Hegel's master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was "I'd rather die than be a slave" and those whose motto was "I'd rather be a slave than die." This was a class distinction in European society, separating the nobility from the peasantry. I find it remarkable, for instance, in my reading of European history how ready the nobility were prepared to lead and if necessary to die in defense of their class interests, whether threatened domestically or by foreign foe. Honor was more important than survival at the top of society. You don't often see that kind of commitment among the ruling elites in our bourgeois democracy, at least not since WWII, individuals like Jim Webb being the exception that proves the rule. Anyway, that kind of master/slave relationship no longer exists anywhere in America, except maybe in prison or the ghetto.

    , @Pete
    @syonredux

    A syndicate "arrayed"? Does he mean "arranged" here?

    His assumption that the dialectic only defines the White while the Black exists in isolation as a being of absolute authenticity possibly stems from the fact that he is a magic negro, and thus believes that he has the magical ability to create his own private logic, just as he seems to believe he has the magical ability to forge his own private definitions of words.

    Or maybe the guy is just a nutball.

  43. @syonredux
    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC's work, that "Whiteness" (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC's part.Hegel's theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the "Other"), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as "Other"), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)


    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to "Whites" (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. "Whites," in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.


    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a "D."

    Replies: @syonredux, @WhatEvvs, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea, @Pete

    Forgot to block-quote the stuff at the top

    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.

    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC’s work, that “Whiteness” (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC’s part.Hegel’s theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the “Other”), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as “Other”), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to “Whites” (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. “Whites,” in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.

    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a “D.”

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @syonredux

    Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    Replies: @Ex Machina, @Hippolytus, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    , @ivvenalis
    @syonredux

    TNC and other professional ethnics don't actually care about critical theory in the abstract any more than they care about things like democracy or ethnic self-determination in the abstract. Bryan Caplan and Robin Hanson defend open borders and Malthusian robot dystopia, respectively, because they believe that this is simply how the world works given the premises they believe to be true. Hanson (and even, I would argue, Caplan) didn't start out wanting to believe these things and then cherry-picking ideologies that implied them. Even someone like the deviant Foucault, who had a personal interest in the destruction of traditional values, had either enough intellectual integrity or enough social pressure to have some respect for the framework he was using, hence the "lip service" acknowledgements of inconvenient conclusions.

    TNC doesn't believe in Critical Theory or intersectionality or whatever. He believes in black moral supremacy and white inferiority, period. Critical Theory is useful insofar as it allows trivially obvious counterarguments and implications to be ignored by claiming that "white people don't exist" (and therefore have no collective interests, moral value, culture, history, etc). To the extent that it implies that black people don't exist, it's not useful, and therefore irrelevant.

    Replies: @dravid

  44. WhatEvvs [AKA "Aamirkhanfan"] says:

    It’s interesting that there is so much bloviating about Coates’ piffle just as Harper Lee’s alleged first draft of To Kill a Mockingbird was published. While liberal America was reeling in shock that Atticus became a rayciss, we had Coates to dry up the tears.

    OK, just a coincidence.

    Kaus has a lot of good stuff to say about the debate. He thinks Murdoch tried to kill Trump, and failed.

  45. WhatEvvs [AKA "Aamirkhanfan"] says:
    @syonredux
    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC's work, that "Whiteness" (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC's part.Hegel's theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the "Other"), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as "Other"), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)


    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to "Whites" (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. "Whites," in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.


    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a "D."

    Replies: @syonredux, @WhatEvvs, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea, @Pete

    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium.

    Projection. Whiteness drives Coates crazy. It really does.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    @WhatEvvs

    I think he's in denial about his white soul.

    "My mother bore me in the southern wild,
    And I am black, but O! my soul is white;
    White as an angel is the English child:
    But I am black as if bereav'd of light. "


    I'd feel sorry for him if what he does wasn't so dangerous.

  46. iSteveFan said:
    > Just compare Canada which had a very limited amount of slavery
    > with Brazil, the all time king of slave holding nations […]
    > If slavery where the golden ticket, Brazil would have per capita
    > GDP rates exceeding Canada’s and rivaling the USA’s.

    The Islamic world-o-wonders had slavery for around a 1000 years, it’s been endemic in Africa since the time the Pharaos had first records taken. Muslimese and Africans should be filthy rich if it was so lucrative.

    Oh wait, we stole the riches, I forgot.

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    @theo the kraut

    It's hard to pick a favorite, but the "plunder" argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain't. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the 'hood.
    TNC is the logical result of white condescension toward blacks and he's not the worst of it--people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child's understanding of reality. It's just shocking how bad he is; is the black bench that shallow, or is it that black talent is all being sucked up elsewhere?

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Lot, @Jay, @Luke Lea

  47. That skit from the Chapelle show was hilarious. That is a pretty accurate representation of what would happen. Except for the 0% crime rate because blacks would be killing each other for their money almost right away.

    “A zero percent crime rate? What, did Mexicans get money too? Oh, I think we’ll be OK, the Mexicans don’t watch the news.”

  48. @syonredux
    @syonredux

    Forgot to block-quote the stuff at the top


    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC’s work, that “Whiteness” (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC’s part.Hegel’s theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the “Other”), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as “Other”), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to “Whites” (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. “Whites,” in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.

    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a “D.”

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @ivvenalis

    Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    • Replies: @Ex Machina
    @Harry Baldwin


    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?
     
    No, but there's this: http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/OGS/omg-shakespeare

    (For an excerpt, see, e.g., http://og.infg.com.br/cultura/16450009-10b-93e/FT1086A/420/reproducao-shakespeare-emoji.png)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Hippolytus
    @Harry Baldwin

    >I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    It looks like Action Philosophers! #8 had Hegel in it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Philosophers!

    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Harry Baldwin

    "I understand Coates is a comic book fan."

    Yeah, and I'll bet he refers to them as "graphic novels."

  49. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Blacks already receive endless reparations. It’s called ‘welfare’ and blacks have no intention of getting off it en masse, ever. Whites blithely support blacks while blacks lounge around doing nothing, (much like how blacks always complain how their labor kept Southern white planters free to enjoy doing nothing) and yet there are still whites dumb enough to believe they owe blacks even more when blacks keep demanding higher amounts of cash for just lounging around.

    For a public ‘intellectual,’ saying “gimme money” is a lot easier that saying, “get off your butts and get a job” and actually expecting results, so an intellectually dishonest schmuck like However-You-Spell-His-Name is always going to take the soft way out.

    Of course, saying ‘gimme money’ is the politics of a Mafia, not those of a people who are legitimate members of a civil society and who expect to pull their own weight.

  50. @International Jew
    Steve, I'm surprised that in considering the economic return to slave labor, you of all people should overlook the I word!

    The end of the slave trade (1809?) created a shortage. If, instead, we'd had a big H1B slave immigration program right up to 1860, slaves would have been imported up to the point where their marginal value product equalized with the cost of basic subsistence.

    Of course, slaves being slaves, the rents were captured by the slave owners, which sucked for the slaves.

    Replies: @oh its just me, @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin, @Reg Cæsar

    …but these days they’d spin it, they are not slaves, they are free market entrepreneurs repressed by the archaic idea of nation-state.

  51. maybe i am just dumb, but…. why doesn’t the Atlantic or TNC have any Palestinian “voices” about repreations and affirmative action?

    • Replies: @dravid
    @oh its just me


    maybe i am just dumb, but…. why doesn’t the Atlantic or TNC have any Palestinian “voices” about repreations and affirmative action?
     
    Bro gimme two decades. That's all I ask. Two decades.
  52. @theo the kraut
    iSteveFan said:
    > Just compare Canada which had a very limited amount of slavery
    > with Brazil, the all time king of slave holding nations [...]
    > If slavery where the golden ticket, Brazil would have per capita
    > GDP rates exceeding Canada’s and rivaling the USA’s.

    The Islamic world-o-wonders had slavery for around a 1000 years, it's been endemic in Africa since the time the Pharaos had first records taken. Muslimese and Africans should be filthy rich if it was so lucrative.

    Oh wait, we stole the riches, I forgot.

    Replies: @Dennis Dale

    It’s hard to pick a favorite, but the “plunder” argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain’t. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the ‘hood.
    TNC is the logical result of white condescension toward blacks and he’s not the worst of it–people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child’s understanding of reality. It’s just shocking how bad he is; is the black bench that shallow, or is it that black talent is all being sucked up elsewhere?

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @Dennis Dale


    It’s hard to pick a favorite, but the “plunder” argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain’t. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the ‘hood.
     
    You're right -- the argument is stupid.

    Wealth comes from petroleum, not people.

    Well, people bring the petroleum out of the earth, but it ain't Black folks doing it or figuring out how to do it.

    Replies: @Gary

    , @Lot
    @Dennis Dale


    but the “plunder” argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain’t. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the ‘hood.
     
    You seem to forget the message of television, where about 40% of computer programmers are black, as is the nation's leading astrophysicist. Just right there, that's a lot of talent to plunder!
    , @Jay
    @Dennis Dale

    TNC is the logical result of LBJ's War on Poverty. Watching this progression for 50 years has been a sad experience. Re the shallow bench, yes, the bench is miniscule and furthermore any black with talent becomes a physician. The reparations department has to get by with TNC.

    , @Luke Lea
    @Dennis Dale

    "people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child’s understanding of reality"

    Needs to be said. thanks,

  53. @Lot
    The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn't know what "abeyance" means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.
     
    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. "the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris"? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?

    This is the writing that AO Scott of the New York Times describes as "Must read’ doesn’t even come close. This from @tanehisicoates is essential, like water or air."

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Kyle McKenna, @FactsAreImportant

    Perhaps it was just another Negro Appropriation of Prepositions, as they do like to do so much. For example, Shirley Q complaining about the heat: “you can sho’ nuff tell behind this humidity.”

    Now don’t even argue–she’s a lot more African than Rachel Dolezal. A lot mo’

  54. @Lot
    A few other random examples of really awful prose:

    From page 107:


    It had to be nails driven through tongue and ears pruned away. “Some disobedience,” wrote a Southern mistress
     

    It could only be the employment of carriage whips, tongs, iron pokers, handsaws, stones, paperweights, or whatever might be handy to break the black body, the black family, the black community, the black nation. The bodies were pulverized into stock and marked with insurance. And the bodies were an aspiration, lucrative as Indian land, a veranda, a beautiful wife, or a summer home in the mountains. For the men who needed to believe themselves white, the bodies were the key to a social club, and the right to break the bodies was the mark of civilization.
     
    "Pulverized into stock"? As in stock in a company? Or cooking stock? Or what? Pulverized means turned into powder, so soup stock makes more sense, though I think the way you make it is by boiling down. But then the stock "is marked with insurance." How do you mark anything with insurance, much less a financial instrument and/or soup ingredient?

    This greatest most essential book ever seems more to me like the work of a ranting schizophrenic.

    Go ahead and try to make sense of this passage, other "Whites suck and are responsible for blacks killing each other in Baltimore all the time":


    Disembodiment is a kind of terrorism, and the threat of it alters the orbit of all our lives and, like terrorism, this distortion is intentional. Disembodiment. The dragon that compelled the boys I knew, way back, into extravagant theater of ownership. Disembodiment. The demon that pushed the middle-class black survivors into aggressive passivity, our conversation restrained in public quarters, our best manners on display, our hands never out of pockets, our whole manner ordered as if to say “I made no sudden moves.” Disembodiment. The serpent of school years, demanding I be twice as good, though I was but a boy. Murder was all around us and we knew, deep in ourselves, in some silent space, that the author of these murders was beyond us, that it suited some other person’s ends. We were right.
     
    Now you'd think he'd at least have some sort of definition or statement on what he means by "Disembodiment" leading up to this passage. Amazon text search shows, however, the word is used repeatedly in this paragraph, once 90 pages earlier in passing, and that's it.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Clyde, @Pete

    All in all? Sounds like an elaborate justification and apologia for anti-white mayhem, which explains its irresistible appeal to white libs. And you can never claim reparations for anti-white violence, no matter how sadistic or widespread, since that violence is itself part of a reparations program.

    By the way: the only sane solution is SEPARATION. As I have said elsewhere, separation is the only scheme which will give all parties exactly what they deserve.

  55. @Harry Baldwin
    “In America,” he writes, “there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife.”

    That is a particularly ill-considered allusion. When I think of someone being stabbed ten times the first thing that pops into my mind is a black man stabbing a white person, the second thing is a black man stabbing another black person, and only upon further thought do I conjure up the intended image of a white man stabbing black person. Honestly, how often does that ever happen?

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna

    In real life, or in movies and television? Keep in mind that the latter two are nowadays far more ‘real’ to most Americans than the former.

  56. I just ignore Coates and all such fatuous schmucks. Talking about him only fuels his flaming self-regard.

    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    @Auntie Analogue

    He's not much of a TV guy, so there's at least that. The loss of Jon (Stewart) Leibowitz is a key setback to the left, I have to wonder whether his replacement will be another John Oliver or another Craig Kilburn.

    , @Anonymous
    @Auntie Analogue

    My feeling exactly. Coates is a talentless, dumb bum. His only distinction is of being black who can write in unbroken English.

    Replies: @Pete

  57. “Atlantic essayist and blogger Ta-Nehisi Coates…”

    A race baiter. So, he wants reparations for blacks. It’s a moot point. Why even give him any legitimacy?

    “You can tell that nobody takes very seriously the argument that African-Americans have been much of an economic boon for white Americans since 1860…”

    Perhaps that ought to be a subject of a blog post. You know, actually dig into specific facts and figures to test your hypothesis.

    Indeed, why would whites, notably southern whites, WANT the newly emancipated black in the post-Civil War era to be economically self-sufficient? Why would northern whites WANT competition for factory jobs? You seem to forget that blacks would not be particularly useful to whites post-Reconstruction because they, as a group, were “handicapped” and “hamstrung” for 400 years.

    However, a little research goes a long ways. Because in one regard a case can be made that blacks WERE important for the financial well-being for a particular group of white Americans. Beginning in the late 1860’s, and making headway in the 1870’s, southern white landowners depended upon black (and of course white) sharecroppers. North Carolina’s Landlord and Tenant Act of 1877 was typical of such an arrangement, placing full authority over the crop and settlement in the hands of the planter. The law made the sharecropper a wage earner rather than partner in the production of a crop. Some planters found excuses to dismiss tenant farmers just before their compensation was due. It is against this backdrop that the wealthiest owners maintained their concentrated ownership of the land, in large part by falsifying accounts at the end of each year to keep their workers in perpetual debt.

    “But outside of a handful of areas like pop music, it’s hard to make up a list of how blacks have, on net, made whites much money over the last 150 years”

    Again, WHY would whites generally SEEK the help of blacks to build up the economy during the halcyon days of the Robber Baron/Captains Of Industry Age (1865-1910), the Roaring Twenties, or the post-World War II economic boom?

    Another blog post worth considering…

    “and easy, if forbidden, to notice how blacks destroyed many white urban homeowners’ net worths in the postwar era.”

    How easy, Mr. Sailer?

    • Replies: @Nico
    @Corvinus


    Again, WHY would whites generally SEEK the help of blacks to build up the economy during the halcyon days of the Robber Baron/Captains Of Industry Age (1865-1910), the Roaring Twenties, or the post-World War II economic boom?

     

    I suspect that to the limited extent we did, it was out of a sense of self-consolation that as long as they were here, we might as well try to make SOME use of them, and that as long as we're stuck with them, we just can't get by believing they're THAT bad...
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    @Corvinus

    Is historical house price data by location available ? With that and the census a programmer could do some lovely animated maps, showing house price (inflation-adjusted) over time, alongside another map showing demographic change over time.

    (That's more of a demo of the effect than quantifying an amount, but that should be easier)

  58. @Lot
    The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn't know what "abeyance" means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.
     
    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. "the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris"? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?

    This is the writing that AO Scott of the New York Times describes as "Must read’ doesn’t even come close. This from @tanehisicoates is essential, like water or air."

    Replies: @SPMoore8, @Kyle McKenna, @FactsAreImportant

    The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn’t know what “abeyance” means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.

    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. “the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris”? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?

    I’ve run into this before when dealing with black “intellectuals”.

    It is gibberish. Big and pretentious words strung together with no logical linkages. They have memorized the words and know enough syntax and grammar to string them into apparently coherent phrases. But, the logic constantly breaks down, and, at its worst, the phrases don’t even make sense.

    Schizophrenics (honest-to-God schizophrenics, not metaphorical schizophrenics) write and speak the same way. Individual phrases make sense, but there are constant shifts in the narrative or the logic every few sentences or phrases.

    It is intentional. When you begin to show you comprehend their fraudulence, they shift into hyper-gibberish mode to intimidate you into thinking you haven’t understood their profundity because your are stupid or don’t understand blacks, and if that doesn’t work, to dare you to call them on it out loud. Almost no one speaks up because almost everyone desperately wants them to be authentic.

    • Replies: @Danindc
    @FactsAreImportant

    Ha. John Thompson, the Georgetown coach had a sports talk show in DC for 15 years if you can believe it. I don't think he even knew basketball. He'd talk in a similar fashion. I always told my friends if you actually write down what he says you'll find that it's gibberish. 15 years.

    , @Pete
    @FactsAreImportant

    "It is gibberish. Big and pretentious words strung together with no logical linkages. They have memorized the words and know enough syntax and grammar to string them into apparently coherent phrases. But, the logic constantly breaks down, and, at its worst, the phrases don’t even make sense."

    Yes! I see that over, and over, and over. I assume they have internalized an idea or stereotype of how educated people are supposed to speak, but are lacking some crucial intellectual component that enables one to think lucidly at the level corresponding to such speech.

    There was a great sketch on the old Living Color show. Damon Wayans played a black prisoner who had self-educated to what he believed to be a high intellectual level. Sitting in his cell, he would stare through the bars at you and imperiously declaim something like "In the inferences of the spatial paradigm, one must assume that the CRUX (emphatic gesturing) of the diatribe is relevant to the APOSTASY of the philosophical journey, to which end I FLAGGELATE the exposition of the incommunicado REVISIONISM..."

  59. Indeed, they cannot do without blacks, whose exploitation is their main source of prosperity.

    A lot of black people have an exaggerated sense of their own race’s importance. I’ve met a lot of good black workers in my time, but the idea that white people exploit blacks, or that we benefit on the whole from their presence in the United States, is absurd. No matter how many upstanding black people there are, the bad ones seem to live for the purpose of making life miserable for everyone they come into contact with. For this reason, the presence of a black population in any given area will have a negative impact the quality of life there for everybody else.

    I’m not even properly middle aged, but I’m already sick of arguing with liberals and black people who say things they know are stupid. Perhaps “I don’t give a shit” is the best response to their nonsense.

  60. @International Jew
    Steve, I'm surprised that in considering the economic return to slave labor, you of all people should overlook the I word!

    The end of the slave trade (1809?) created a shortage. If, instead, we'd had a big H1B slave immigration program right up to 1860, slaves would have been imported up to the point where their marginal value product equalized with the cost of basic subsistence.

    Of course, slaves being slaves, the rents were captured by the slave owners, which sucked for the slaves.

    Replies: @oh its just me, @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin, @Reg Cæsar

    In other parts of the world they imported Indian & Chinese indentured servants after slavery ended to work on the plantations, perhaps the coolies were a forerunner of H1B program.

    • Replies: @dravid
    @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin


    In other parts of the world they imported Indian & Chinese indentured servants after slavery ended to work on the plantations, perhaps the coolies were a forerunner of H1B program.
     
    You ever heard of the Mamluks??? Google is your friend you old clown.
  61. @FredR
    Caldwell's review is incredible.

    Replies: @Alden

    Indeed, I feel the need to sit with it in order to ensure the testimony is respected.

  62. • Replies: @Andrew Jackson
    @Anonymous

    Are you a 20 year old woman or what? What kind of weirdo thinks a group of predominantly white men needs constant updates on Caitlyn what's her face?

  63. @CK
    Every ten years of so another "important" black "intellectual" voice comes round demanding something or another for no damn good reason. It's all the same old same old, they were enslaved by their African brethren, the slaves shipped to the west were not the strongest, the brightest, the hardest fighters, the hardest workers, they were the ones that were captured and found not worthy to go into the communal cooking pot in Dahomey and other wonderous spots on the slave coast of Africa not worthy of being breeding stock for their African owners.
    Docile to the max they worked the sugar plantations of the Caribbean and Brazil and Cuba ( until the 1890's).
    So net out the cost to the USA of having them around for all these years since they were emancipated, and the cost of food, shelter, health, retirement while involuntarily employed against the extra income they supposedly generated during the 20 years or so of King Cotton, small holder tobacco, rice and indigo. Divide the resulting negative number by some large number and send them the bills coming due.
    You carry some on your backs long enough and they begin to think you are their own personal jackass. You set them down and give them a city to rule and administer and improve and you get ( take you pick(s)) Detroit, Gary, Newark, Baltimore, St. Louis, Birmingham, Selma, Atlanta, etc. etc.
    Give them a company to administer and you get McDonalds.
    Give them a country and you get Zimbabwe, The Union of South Africa, Nigeria, Equatorial Guinea, etc.
    Give them a chance to run from their countries and they run to civilizations created by northern Europeans. Maybe they would try to run to India or Pakistan or Vietnam or Israel but
    those places are inhospitable to them
    That degreed white folks find these authors important and deep and intellectual is an indictment of the level of intellectuality in the USA today.
    And you should have put a trigger warning somewhere before the article; the violent spew almost dampened my keyboard.
    Leave it to some half-wit mag to quote the sainted Abe. Such a schmendrick he was.

    Replies: @tbraton

    “Give them a chance to run from their countries and they run to civilizations created by northern Europeans. ”

    And why not? According to that picture posted by Steve Sailer last week, black refugees from Africa who land in England are put up in rather posh hotels and are served tea in silver utensils. Probably the first they have seen in their lives.

  64. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This reintroduced me to the joys of Ta-Nehisi Coates:

    …they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film…

    There were film cameras present when Eric Garner died? Or is Ta not aware that there are two different ways of recording motion photography, celluloid and video?

    …who built the streets and sold red ink by the barrel.

    Didn’t “redlining” occur in the era after commercial use of fountain pens had disappeared (I suppose it could be accomplished with ballpoint)? Or is Ta referring to some kind of mass-redlining printing device that bankers might acquire for the purpose? Isn’t the term mostly metaphorical anyway?

    …hell upon those who shatter the holy vessel.

    What a lolcow! On a side note Caldwell’s close reading took me back to “Michael X and the Black Power Killings in Trinidad” by V.S. Naipaul. The ghostwritten black-lib text that he picks apart is almost as inadvertently funny & incoherent as Coates’s Divine Comedy of Body Verse

    Has anyone explored the similarities between Coates and Kanye Yeezus West? Both are supposed to have had Black Panther dads; both are lauded extravagantly for breadth of innovation instead of simply efficient/smart execution of a pre-existing market; yet neither is actually a visionary in his chosen field. Coates/West is good enough to be competitive but not great; he has much self-presentation savvy but his main talent seems to lie in hogging headlines.

  65. @Auntie Analogue
    I just ignore Coates and all such fatuous schmucks. Talking about him only fuels his flaming self-regard.

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Anonymous

    He’s not much of a TV guy, so there’s at least that. The loss of Jon (Stewart) Leibowitz is a key setback to the left, I have to wonder whether his replacement will be another John Oliver or another Craig Kilburn.

  66. I never thought I’d be pining for Cornel West, but West was a billion times more interesting to listen to than TNC.

  67. It is beyond irritating to see praise heaped on a featherweight intellectual like Coates. There is his undisguised hatred of white America and his almost comical overestimation of the economic value of blacks siphoned off by whites post Civil War, which of course entirely accounts for the massive wealth gap between whites and blacks in the present day. In Coates mind and writings, black Americans have bear absolutely no responsibility for the massive cultural and economic failure that affects their community, it’s all an incredibly ingenious white plot.

    However, I am thinking we are already on the downhill slope of black political power, so the likelihood of anything Coates proposes coming to pass grows more remote each day. Blacks are going to go from second banana in the coalition of the left (whites are on top of course and will remain so) to the third wheel as Hispanics grow in numbers and economic clout, and they aren’t particularly fond of blacks. The left will continue to toss some crumbs towards them but nothing major will get done unless Hispanics are on board with it and I am somewhat doubtful about how often their interests will align in the future.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Arclight


    In Coates mind and writings, black Americans have bear absolutely no responsibility for the massive cultural and economic failure that affects their community…
     
    That's also the HBD stance, though on very different grounds: they can't help it. They were born that way.
    , @SFG
    @Arclight

    I think at least some Hispanics will assimilate and go Republican. (No, this doesn't mean we need more illegal immigrants.) Blacks, on the other hand, are likely to stay poor and hence Democratic for a very long time. So I think they will remain important.

    Replies: @Arclight, @Hrw-500

  68. @Auntie Analogue
    I just ignore Coates and all such fatuous schmucks. Talking about him only fuels his flaming self-regard.

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Anonymous

    My feeling exactly. Coates is a talentless, dumb bum. His only distinction is of being black who can write in unbroken English.

    • Replies: @Pete
    @Anonymous

    Occasionally unbroken English, anyway...

  69. @Harry Baldwin
    @syonredux

    Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    Replies: @Ex Machina, @Hippolytus, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    No, but there’s this: http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/OGS/omg-shakespeare

    (For an excerpt, see, e.g., http://og.infg.com.br/cultura/16450009-10b-93e/FT1086A/420/reproducao-shakespeare-emoji.png)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Ex Machina

    I read the Classic Comics version of Hamlet when I was about 10.

    Replies: @Ex Machina

  70. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    ..it’s despicable for Brooks to position the destruction of peoples [sic] lives as some kind of learning opportunity for white people, a crash course in history without compassion.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/books/dear-david-brooks

    I don’t get it… There’s some white shrieking spinster in Toronto (who looks eerily like the title character from the “Ugly Betty” remake for American audiences) scolding Brooks for sort-of scolding Coates, that much I do grasp; but didn’t Coates start it? i.e. by minimizing the destruction of people’s lives as some kind of resentment opportunity for black people. For the record I don’t buy Coates invocation of 9/11 firefighters as even 1/10th sincere, not for one minute — it’s a classic rhetorical-arson tactic. It is hilarious to imagine the foremost-public-intellectual on-the-make Howard grad reacting to the immediate news of that day with such an unironic “Whitey On The Moon”-style grumbling mish-mash of grievance sentiments. The Canadian writer herself is fairly irony-proof as evidenced by repeated apostrophes to “fellow white people.”

  71. @Dennis Dale
    @theo the kraut

    It's hard to pick a favorite, but the "plunder" argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain't. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the 'hood.
    TNC is the logical result of white condescension toward blacks and he's not the worst of it--people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child's understanding of reality. It's just shocking how bad he is; is the black bench that shallow, or is it that black talent is all being sucked up elsewhere?

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Lot, @Jay, @Luke Lea

    It’s hard to pick a favorite, but the “plunder” argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain’t. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the ‘hood.

    You’re right — the argument is stupid.

    Wealth comes from petroleum, not people.

    Well, people bring the petroleum out of the earth, but it ain’t Black folks doing it or figuring out how to do it.

    • Replies: @Gary
    @ben tillman

    Wealth comes from petroleum, not people.

    Please elaborate.

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist

  72. advancedatheist [AKA "RedneckCryonicist"] says:

    You might want to read Damon Knight’s story “Rule Golden,” about an alien on Earth who has the ability to make humans feel the consequences of their actions in others. You have to wonder what America’s black population would do if they dropped their delusions about their exploitation and really felt their status as parasites on American society.

    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    @advancedatheist

    "Black guilt" I like the sound of it. Parasite classes in advanced societies usually operate as shame-honor, not guilt based. I would guess the Roma in Europe are the same way, others presumably know more and can add in.

    Has another culture ever emasculated itself as Western whites have? That's what we tried to make the Japanese do after WWII, but it doesn't seem to have worked.

  73. @Ex Machina
    @Harry Baldwin


    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?
     
    No, but there's this: http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/OGS/omg-shakespeare

    (For an excerpt, see, e.g., http://og.infg.com.br/cultura/16450009-10b-93e/FT1086A/420/reproducao-shakespeare-emoji.png)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I read the Classic Comics version of Hamlet when I was about 10.

    • Replies: @Ex Machina
    @Steve Sailer

    I wasn't intending to disparage Classic Comics (I'm not familiar with them, but from what I gather they're probably a great way to get kids into the classics); I bring up "OMG Shakespeare" partly as a joke about serving as a means by which TNC may apprehend Hegel, and partly to despair about the future of our civilization (or what's left of it).

  74. If I were to stop believing I am white, what would I be?

    Also, he claims whites need blacks. How does he account for white flight?

  75. @International Jew
    Steve, I'm surprised that in considering the economic return to slave labor, you of all people should overlook the I word!

    The end of the slave trade (1809?) created a shortage. If, instead, we'd had a big H1B slave immigration program right up to 1860, slaves would have been imported up to the point where their marginal value product equalized with the cost of basic subsistence.

    Of course, slaves being slaves, the rents were captured by the slave owners, which sucked for the slaves.

    Replies: @oh its just me, @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin, @Reg Cæsar

    Of course, slaves being slaves, the rents were captured by the slave owners…

    The rents, and 60% of the representation, too.

  76. @syonredux
    @syonredux

    Forgot to block-quote the stuff at the top


    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC’s work, that “Whiteness” (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC’s part.Hegel’s theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the “Other”), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as “Other”), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to “Whites” (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. “Whites,” in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.

    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a “D.”

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @ivvenalis

    TNC and other professional ethnics don’t actually care about critical theory in the abstract any more than they care about things like democracy or ethnic self-determination in the abstract. Bryan Caplan and Robin Hanson defend open borders and Malthusian robot dystopia, respectively, because they believe that this is simply how the world works given the premises they believe to be true. Hanson (and even, I would argue, Caplan) didn’t start out wanting to believe these things and then cherry-picking ideologies that implied them. Even someone like the deviant Foucault, who had a personal interest in the destruction of traditional values, had either enough intellectual integrity or enough social pressure to have some respect for the framework he was using, hence the “lip service” acknowledgements of inconvenient conclusions.

    TNC doesn’t believe in Critical Theory or intersectionality or whatever. He believes in black moral supremacy and white inferiority, period. Critical Theory is useful insofar as it allows trivially obvious counterarguments and implications to be ignored by claiming that “white people don’t exist” (and therefore have no collective interests, moral value, culture, history, etc). To the extent that it implies that black people don’t exist, it’s not useful, and therefore irrelevant.

    • Replies: @dravid
    @ivvenalis


    white people don’t exist
     
    Cuz they dont? They're generally fraction-equation people racially. There is no 'white race' as there is no brown race or black race. There are Anglos and Frenchmen, and Germans and Slavs. I see no 'white' people independent on blacks. There are Bengalis, Punjabis, Telegus etc. I see no 'brown' people independent of whites. etc etc.

    America isn't a white country you fool. It's an Anglo-Saxon country. Germans != Anglos != Swedes != French. If you're gonna be a racist atleast be a proper racist. Funniest shit is when you run into racist 'peripheral' 'whites' like the Italians or Jews or Irish or Russians that were treated like shit merely a generation ago.

    Groups that stick to simple colors (white, black etc) given large numbers are too outbred to ever become cohesive and will have smaller groups with stronger genetic cohesion/minority status run circles around them. This is why a 'white' status is never viable. By the time 'white' identity is meaningful 'whites' will be a total minority.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  77. @Arclight
    It is beyond irritating to see praise heaped on a featherweight intellectual like Coates. There is his undisguised hatred of white America and his almost comical overestimation of the economic value of blacks siphoned off by whites post Civil War, which of course entirely accounts for the massive wealth gap between whites and blacks in the present day. In Coates mind and writings, black Americans have bear absolutely no responsibility for the massive cultural and economic failure that affects their community, it's all an incredibly ingenious white plot.

    However, I am thinking we are already on the downhill slope of black political power, so the likelihood of anything Coates proposes coming to pass grows more remote each day. Blacks are going to go from second banana in the coalition of the left (whites are on top of course and will remain so) to the third wheel as Hispanics grow in numbers and economic clout, and they aren't particularly fond of blacks. The left will continue to toss some crumbs towards them but nothing major will get done unless Hispanics are on board with it and I am somewhat doubtful about how often their interests will align in the future.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @SFG

    In Coates mind and writings, black Americans have bear absolutely no responsibility for the massive cultural and economic failure that affects their community…

    That’s also the HBD stance, though on very different grounds: they can’t help it. They were born that way.

  78. Long-time iSteve reader here, and a “millennial.’ I have gotten the strong impression, from (among other things) occasional Sailer-isms and quips – “When did African-Americans become living fossils?” springs immediately to mind – that people once felt cautiously optimistic about race relations. On another recent thread, someone left a comment to the effect that “self-improvement” or “self-empowerment” was a buzzword for blacks, maybe in the 70s. So this all begs the question: how would a Coates have been received in that epoch? I suspect he could have been squirreled away into an African-American Studies program and relative obscurity, but surely, his blatherings would not have exploded out onto the mainstream as they have here in 2015. Back in the 60s and 70s in particular, his weird mixture of passive-aggressiveness against whites and implicit admittance of black failure would have gone against the zeitgeist, no? The sisters (feminists) and brothers (blacks) were doin’ it for themselves!

    For another matter: what led to mainstream whites being more cynical about giving blacks the benefit of the doubt, which seems to go hand-in-hand (correlation not being causation) with a more hopeless, hateful attitude among blacks? Some candidates that I would suspect: forced busing; rising crime and not unrelated to that, crack cocaine; rap music.

    “Generation gap” indeed on this one… we millennials grew up with MLK Jr. as a secular saint, and Lincoln too (one guess as to why). To use myself as an example: I am 29, so I was six years old when the LA Riots happened, and I haven’t one memory of it; a few years later, OJ Simpson was just a guy in a white bronco on whom the adults had an odd fixation. If my generation couldn’t even make sense of OJ as it happened, much less everything before it right back to the Civil Rights period, someone else will make sense of it for us. Better we hear it from people like Steve than the mendacious media and academia class that has been in charge of the culture for the last 50 years. Just today I saw an op-ed from the popular rap group Run the Jewels – on the BBC no less – that defends the view that “Riots work.” This is not presented as a particularly controversial view, but airing a mainstream view against illegal immigration is “controversial.” Who/whom; mendacious media.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Erik the Red


    “Generation gap” indeed on this one… we millennials grew up with MLK Jr. as a secular saint, and Lincoln too (one guess as to why).
     
    "Secular saint" is a contradiction in terms. There's nothing secular about the cult of MLK. It is as much a religion as any church.
    , @IA
    @Erik the Red


    On another recent thread, someone left a comment to the effect that “self-improvement” or “self-empowerment” was a buzzword for blacks, maybe in the 70s. So this all begs the question: how would a Coates have been received in that epoch?
     
    About as well as gay marriage, breakfast-of-champions Jenner, and hip-hop.

    It's not so much that blacks are rising (or for that matter, the Chinese, or Islam) it's that Euros are falling.

    Blacks like Coates have been around since Malcolm X. He's part of a long-term jihad encouraged by white Eloi who believe in nothing at all (other than their own careers). The psychic vacuum is exploited by professional-victim blacks, feminists, Muslims and queers.
  79. Coates is doing the same exact nonsense as Maya Angelou. Only read one of her books in college because we had to for sociology. Grating, pointless nonsense about working in a whorehouse; to make a bordello seem dull to an 18-year old boy is hard to do; mission accomplished. Bill Clinton had her read a poem at his Inaugural, but doubt he ever read anything she wrote for more than a page or 2. It’s a good living. But would wager a small fortune the elites who downloaded or purchased Coates’ book aren’t going to read much of his screed.

  80. @Steve Sailer
    @Ex Machina

    I read the Classic Comics version of Hamlet when I was about 10.

    Replies: @Ex Machina

    I wasn’t intending to disparage Classic Comics (I’m not familiar with them, but from what I gather they’re probably a great way to get kids into the classics); I bring up “OMG Shakespeare” partly as a joke about serving as a means by which TNC may apprehend Hegel, and partly to despair about the future of our civilization (or what’s left of it).

  81. @advancedatheist
    You might want to read Damon Knight's story "Rule Golden," about an alien on Earth who has the ability to make humans feel the consequences of their actions in others. You have to wonder what America's black population would do if they dropped their delusions about their exploitation and really felt their status as parasites on American society.

    Replies: @Maj. Kong

    “Black guilt” I like the sound of it. Parasite classes in advanced societies usually operate as shame-honor, not guilt based. I would guess the Roma in Europe are the same way, others presumably know more and can add in.

    Has another culture ever emasculated itself as Western whites have? That’s what we tried to make the Japanese do after WWII, but it doesn’t seem to have worked.

  82. @Dennis Dale
    @theo the kraut

    It's hard to pick a favorite, but the "plunder" argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain't. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the 'hood.
    TNC is the logical result of white condescension toward blacks and he's not the worst of it--people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child's understanding of reality. It's just shocking how bad he is; is the black bench that shallow, or is it that black talent is all being sucked up elsewhere?

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Lot, @Jay, @Luke Lea

    but the “plunder” argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain’t. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the ‘hood.

    You seem to forget the message of television, where about 40% of computer programmers are black, as is the nation’s leading astrophysicist. Just right there, that’s a lot of talent to plunder!

  83. @International Jew
    I wonder, if blacks themselves started to believe TNC's nonsense, could that kick off a latter-day Afrozionist movement to depart for Liberia?

    Nah.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Anonymous, @David R. Merridale

    I’m pretty sure that, like American Zionists, TNC and black radicals like him are already Afrozionists who support reparations and aid for Africa, like Zionists support WWII reparations and aid to Israel.

  84. OT:

    When it comes to Jewish ties, no GOP candidate trumps Trump

    Given his myriad Jewish associations, Trump is not an unfamiliar face in Jewish circles. He has served as a grand marshal at New York’s annual Salute to Israel Parade. After Hurricane Katrina, he was among a group of celebrities who decorated Jewish federation tzedakah boxes to be auctioned off to support hurricane disaster relief. And in February, he was honored with an award at the annual gala for the Algemeiner, a right-wing Jewish news organization.

    “I have a Jewish daughter. This wasn’t in the plan, but I’m very glad it happened,” Trump said at the event, held in Manhattan. On Israel, he said, “We love Israel. We will fight for Israel 100 percent, 1,000 percent. It will be there forever.”

    Before the 2013 Israeli election, Trump recorded a video message endorsing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. “You truly have a great prime minister in Benjamin Netanyahu. He’s a winner…

    “I have many Jewish friends that support Obama and I say, ‘Why?’ and they can’t explain why. They support him, they give him money, they give him campaign contributions,” Trump told radio host Michael Savage in February. “This is the worst enemy of Israel.”…

    …Trump at times has dabbled in Israeli real estate…

    Trump’s closest Jewish association is with his daughter Ivanka’s family. Ivanka Trump, a fashion designer and celebrity in her own right, converted to Judaism before marrying Jared Kushner, the son of New York Jewish real estate mogul Charles Kushner.

    She studied for her Orthodox conversion with Rabbi Haskel Lookstein of Manhattan’s Kehilath Jeshurun synagogue and the Ramaz School, and Lookstein officiated at her wedding. Trump and Kushner are members of Lookstein’s Orthodox synagogue and are Shabbat observant. They have two children.

    Donald Trump is Presbyterian. He has said he goes to church on Christmas, Easter and special occasions.

    When it comes to The Trump Organization, Trump’s right-hand man is a Jewish lawyer, Michael Cohen, who also serves as a top campaign aide. Cohen ignited controversy last week by suggesting that spousal rape doesn’t count as rape. He later apologized, saying his remarks were “inarticulate.”

    …When Ivanka Trump introduced her father at the Algemeiner dinner six months ago, she said, “He has used his voice often and loudly in support of Israel, in support of developments within Israel, in support of security for Israel and in support of the idea of the Israeli democracy.”

    http://www.jta.org/2015/08/07/news-opinion/politics/when-it-comes-to-jewish-ties-nobody-trumps-trump-1

  85. @syonredux

    New York Times film reviewer A.O. Scott tweeted: “ ‘Must read’ doesn’t even come close. This from @tanehisicoates is essential, like water or air.”
     
    I can think of a handful of human intellectual achievements that merit something like that level of praise: Darwin's On the Origin of Species, Newton's Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica , Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, etc


    TNC's recent emotional outburst is not in the same category

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    “TNC’s recent emotional outburst is not in the same category”

    Perhaps TNC could at least equal Copernicus with his next book, entitled: “On the Revolutions of Black Bodies”.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  86. Given what we’ve seen of the GOP candidates so far, would any of them besides Trump object to reparations?

  87. New Iron Curtain?

  88. @ben tillman
    @Dennis Dale


    It’s hard to pick a favorite, but the “plunder” argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain’t. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the ‘hood.
     
    You're right -- the argument is stupid.

    Wealth comes from petroleum, not people.

    Well, people bring the petroleum out of the earth, but it ain't Black folks doing it or figuring out how to do it.

    Replies: @Gary

    Wealth comes from petroleum, not people.

    Please elaborate.

    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    @Gary

    Walk through a WalMart and observe what 70% of everything, down to the packaging, is made of.

  89. Re: the ongoing “plunder” of blacks by white society:

    Dr. Dre from Compton now worth $700 million.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg/2015/05/06/dr-dres-net-worth-in-2015-700-million/

  90. Having spent a year and a half at a majority-black public school, there’s something I know about Coates’s childhood that neither he nor anybody else has mentioned yet: he was tormented by his peers about his gigantic lips.

    Kids are cruel to other kids about their appearance, and black kids are no exception. The black kids at the extreme ends of dark and light skin, for example, also got made fun of. As did the really fat or tall black kids, and the ones whose parents couldn’t be bothered to obtain for them clothing without holes and stains.

    Coates’s lips are larger than 99.5% of blacks and 99.95% of humanity.

    The most famous white guy with big lips is of course Mick Jagger, who is clearly at the extreme of his race:

    Coates has Jagger outlipped by at least 300%:

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lot

    Yup, TNC has suffered a lot at the hands of blacks. That's really obvious reading his book, but white people are so self-obsessed with hating other white people that they read TNC saying "Growing up, black people did horrible things X,Y, and Z to my black body, and that has to be the fault of people who believe they are white people because Racism," and they take him seriously.

    , @BB753
    @Lot

    Furthermore he was a bespectacled fat boy, and probably shy as well as well-behaved, way smarter than other black bodies, and his teens must have been hell.

    , @Harry Baldwin
    @Lot

    Ta-Nehisi has got nothing on rapper MC Moeblak, whose lips Rihanna famously likened to a leather couch.

    http://archive.entertainmentwise.com/news/141615/rihanna-sparks-racism-row-after-comparing-black-mans-lips-to-leather-sofa

    I wonder if anyone made fun of Coates' name, or is the black community beyond that at this point?

    , @David
    @Lot

    That's interesting. I just did a quick estimate in the mirror. The area of my nose (in a 2D image) is about 3 times that of my lips whereas TNC's nose is more like 80% of his lips. I wonder how lips like full organs would help in the battle for existence.

    , @p s c
    @Lot

    Large lips are referred to as "Soup Coolers" in the street vernacular. See Urban Dictionary for more information.

  91. @Harry Baldwin
    @syonredux

    Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    Replies: @Ex Machina, @Hippolytus, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    >I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    It looks like Action Philosophers! #8 had Hegel in it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Philosophers!

  92. n/a says: • Website
    @Crawfurdmuir
    "The South was poor for the century after 1865 until it could rebuild itself along Northern corporate business lines, in which African-Americans are of course of minor importance."

    Economically, the unpleasantness of 1861-'65 is the American version of the conflict between agricultural and industrial interests that manifested itself elsewhere in the world at about the same time, though without the added complication of slavery. In Britain, for example, the landed gentry favored agricultural protectionism through the Corn Laws; the rising captains of industry wanted free trade and other laissez-faire policies summarized by the soubriquet "Manchester liberalism." Here it was the reverse: Southern planters wanted free trade, so they could send their cotton and tobacco to England in return for its industrial products, which were both better and cheaper than those made in the northern U.S. On the other hand, the mill owners and financiers of New England supported protective tariffs to nurture their fledgling industry.

    In both cases, the ascendant class won, with the result that there was an agricultural depression both in the Old World and the New. However, in New England the industrial party were able to cloak their economic self-interest behind the moral posturing of abolitionism, as in the case of Gerrit Smith, one of the backers of John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry. Slavery had ceased to be profitable to the North after 1 January of 1808, when U.S. law forbade the further importation of slaves - and so nothing stood in the way of Northern abolitionism as an economic strategy against the South.

    The South was the richest part of the antebellum U.S., and in one fell stroke was rendered the poorest by the passage of the 13th amendment. Blacks ceased to be assets, and have ever since then been liabilities - which, if Ta-Nehesi Coates had his way, would be bottomless.

    Replies: @n/a

    “However, in New England the industrial party were able to cloak their economic self-interest behind the moral posturing of abolitionism, as in the case of Gerrit Smith, one of the backers of John Brown’s raid on Harper’s Ferry.”

    Gerrit Smith was from New York and as far as I know had no New England ancestry. He was mostly Dutch with some Scottish and Irish or Scotch-Irish, and his family’s wealth stemmed from early land grants rather than nascent industry.

  93. America has already got a ‘culture of infinite penance for whites’.

  94. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Putting cotton to one side, rhetorically speaking, surely tobacco, which was grown in massive slave labor plantations, was a massive money maker for the fledgling United States, and the base upon which much American wealth was founded.

    I would hate to estimate the tonnage of ‘Virginia tobacco’ which was imported – and is still being imported – into the UK alone *these past 400 years* – but considering the rapacious tobacco habits the English had throughout the centuries and had up to 4 decades ago, the quantity, and the amount of gold shipped out to pay for it must have been truly enormous.

    • Replies: @Honesthughgrant
    @Anonymous


    Putting cotton to one side, rhetorically speaking, surely tobacco, which was grown in massive slave labor plantations, was a massive money maker for the fledgling United States, and the base upon which much American wealth was founded.
     
    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton. The wealth of the USA was built on Industry, Coal, Oil, and wheat.

    The poorest part of the country was supported by Cotton and Tobacco.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Truth

    , @Boomstick
    @Anonymous

    Planters sank a lot of capital into buying slaves, and that capital vanished when the slaves were freed. From a strictly economic standpoint it was like setting fire to cash. During the Civil War the factories and farms of the south were being literally, not figuratively, destroyed, and after the Civil War the price of cotton dropped by half.

    US wealth has as its basis high productivity factory, railroad, and intellectual work, not physical labor. The US industrial plant wasn't financed by tobacco growers or cotton farmers. In point of historical fact it was largely financed by British capital during the 19th century and from internal industrial retained earnings. That's why great southern fortunes are so rare, in contrast to the Mellons, Carnegies, Vanderbilts, and Rockefellers. Quick, are there any dynastic 19th century robber barons who had as the source of their fortunes....growing cotton?

    Replies: @syonredux

  95. @oh its just me
    maybe i am just dumb, but.... why doesn't the Atlantic or TNC have any Palestinian "voices" about repreations and affirmative action?

    Replies: @dravid

    maybe i am just dumb, but…. why doesn’t the Atlantic or TNC have any Palestinian “voices” about repreations and affirmative action?

    Bro gimme two decades. That’s all I ask. Two decades.

  96. @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin
    @International Jew

    In other parts of the world they imported Indian & Chinese indentured servants after slavery ended to work on the plantations, perhaps the coolies were a forerunner of H1B program.

    Replies: @dravid

    In other parts of the world they imported Indian & Chinese indentured servants after slavery ended to work on the plantations, perhaps the coolies were a forerunner of H1B program.

    You ever heard of the Mamluks??? Google is your friend you old clown.

  97. @Anonymous
    Putting cotton to one side, rhetorically speaking, surely tobacco, which was grown in massive slave labor plantations, was a massive money maker for the fledgling United States, and the base upon which much American wealth was founded.

    I would hate to estimate the tonnage of 'Virginia tobacco' which was imported - and is still being imported - into the UK alone *these past 400 years* - but considering the rapacious tobacco habits the English had throughout the centuries and had up to 4 decades ago, the quantity, and the amount of gold shipped out to pay for it must have been truly enormous.

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Boomstick

    Putting cotton to one side, rhetorically speaking, surely tobacco, which was grown in massive slave labor plantations, was a massive money maker for the fledgling United States, and the base upon which much American wealth was founded.

    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton. The wealth of the USA was built on Industry, Coal, Oil, and wheat.

    The poorest part of the country was supported by Cotton and Tobacco.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @Honesthughgrant


    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton.
     
    Well, there's a bit of tobacco grown just north of the Mason-Dixon line:

    http://reesephoto.me/tag/tobacco/
    , @Truth
    @Honesthughgrant




    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton.
     
    For Christsakes, Sport; WITH PROFITS FROM COTTON. Where do you think all those Big Jew Banks in Philadelphia made their loans?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0131_030203_jubilee2_2.html

    Replies: @Boomstick

  98. @ivvenalis
    @syonredux

    TNC and other professional ethnics don't actually care about critical theory in the abstract any more than they care about things like democracy or ethnic self-determination in the abstract. Bryan Caplan and Robin Hanson defend open borders and Malthusian robot dystopia, respectively, because they believe that this is simply how the world works given the premises they believe to be true. Hanson (and even, I would argue, Caplan) didn't start out wanting to believe these things and then cherry-picking ideologies that implied them. Even someone like the deviant Foucault, who had a personal interest in the destruction of traditional values, had either enough intellectual integrity or enough social pressure to have some respect for the framework he was using, hence the "lip service" acknowledgements of inconvenient conclusions.

    TNC doesn't believe in Critical Theory or intersectionality or whatever. He believes in black moral supremacy and white inferiority, period. Critical Theory is useful insofar as it allows trivially obvious counterarguments and implications to be ignored by claiming that "white people don't exist" (and therefore have no collective interests, moral value, culture, history, etc). To the extent that it implies that black people don't exist, it's not useful, and therefore irrelevant.

    Replies: @dravid

    white people don’t exist

    Cuz they dont? They’re generally fraction-equation people racially. There is no ‘white race’ as there is no brown race or black race. There are Anglos and Frenchmen, and Germans and Slavs. I see no ‘white’ people independent on blacks. There are Bengalis, Punjabis, Telegus etc. I see no ‘brown’ people independent of whites. etc etc.

    America isn’t a white country you fool. It’s an Anglo-Saxon country. Germans != Anglos != Swedes != French. If you’re gonna be a racist atleast be a proper racist. Funniest shit is when you run into racist ‘peripheral’ ‘whites’ like the Italians or Jews or Irish or Russians that were treated like shit merely a generation ago.

    Groups that stick to simple colors (white, black etc) given large numbers are too outbred to ever become cohesive and will have smaller groups with stronger genetic cohesion/minority status run circles around them. This is why a ‘white’ status is never viable. By the time ‘white’ identity is meaningful ‘whites’ will be a total minority.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @dravid

    "There is no ‘white race’ as there is no brown race or black race. There are Anglos and Frenchmen, and Germans and Slavs. I see no ‘white’ people independent on blacks.........America isn’t a white country you fool. It’s an Anglo-Saxon country. Germans != Anglos !........."

    Anglo-Saxon != German? Where do you think Anglo Saxons came from, nitwit? You don't know how to use prepositions either - "independent on"?

    Here's some advice: don't presume to lecture people and call them "fool", when you yourself - quite obviously - are not very bright.

  99. @syonredux

    And of course that’s pretty much what happened. The South was poor for the century after 1865 until it could rebuild itself along Northern corporate business lines, in which African-Americans are of course of minor importance.
     
    On a per capita basis, the South was poor prior to 1865.The Cotton Boom created fortunes for slave traders and the owners of large cotton plantations, but it didn't do much for the South as a whole.For example, just compare things like White literacy rates in Massachusetts and Mississippi, infrastructure (railways, steel-mills) etc.Visitors from Northern states to the South were always shocked by how poor so many of the native Whites were.In the North, that kind of poverty was largely confined to recent immigrants, particularly the Catholic Irish.

    And the lack of development in the South extended to the arts and the sciences:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.
     
    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Luke Lea, @AP

    On a per capita basis, the South was poor prior to 1865.The Cotton Boom created fortunes for slave traders and the owners of large cotton plantations, but it didn’t do much for the South as a whole.

    Agree completely. People can go read the 1860 census for the facts. In 1860, 90% of the industry was outside the Confederacy. And look at the urban population. In 1860 you had 4.5 million Americans living in towns/cities with more then 5, 000 people. 90% of the them lived in the North (including Mo, Kentucky, and Maryland). In fact, Philadelphia had as many people as all the other large Southern cities put together (excluding New Orleans). Further, while the North was already using Farm machinery on a large scale in 1860, something the South wouldn’t do for another 50 years.

    The Confederacy had a real problem during the Civil war because almost all the Iron and Railroad industry was in the North.

  100. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Steve,
    I’ve been reading this past week about the extraordinary efforts black African ‘migrants’, as the press terms them, mainly Sudanese, have been making trying to break into Britain.
    One poor soul almost walked the entire 30 mile length of the Channel Tunnel whilst it was still live with trains. Others have secreted themselves under the floors of trucks, horse-boxes, buses etc. A fair few have been crushed by vehicles in attempts to smuggle themselves in.

    Although I am firmly of the belief that the attraction of this apparent El Dorado is the issuing of council houses, the British welfare state and the NHS, just, for the point of argument, say that a decent number of African ‘migrants’ are actually more than willing and able to out up with a lifetime of drudge low paid grunt work in the UK just for the chance to actually live in the beneficence of the white man’s civilization.
    Their desperate and sometimes suicidal efforts to live under the white man’s law and government really puts Coates’ bullshit into perspective.
    If only a few of those camped out in ‘the jungle’ could give Coates a piece of their minds and swap places with him.

  101. @Corvinus
    "Atlantic essayist and blogger Ta-Nehisi Coates..."

    A race baiter. So, he wants reparations for blacks. It's a moot point. Why even give him any legitimacy?


    "You can tell that nobody takes very seriously the argument that African-Americans have been much of an economic boon for white Americans since 1860..."

    Perhaps that ought to be a subject of a blog post. You know, actually dig into specific facts and figures to test your hypothesis.

    Indeed, why would whites, notably southern whites, WANT the newly emancipated black in the post-Civil War era to be economically self-sufficient? Why would northern whites WANT competition for factory jobs? You seem to forget that blacks would not be particularly useful to whites post-Reconstruction because they, as a group, were "handicapped" and "hamstrung" for 400 years.

    However, a little research goes a long ways. Because in one regard a case can be made that blacks WERE important for the financial well-being for a particular group of white Americans. Beginning in the late 1860's, and making headway in the 1870's, southern white landowners depended upon black (and of course white) sharecroppers. North Carolina’s Landlord and Tenant Act of 1877 was typical of such an arrangement, placing full authority over the crop and settlement in the hands of the planter. The law made the sharecropper a wage earner rather than partner in the production of a crop. Some planters found excuses to dismiss tenant farmers just before their compensation was due. It is against this backdrop that the wealthiest owners maintained their concentrated ownership of the land, in large part by falsifying accounts at the end of each year to keep their workers in perpetual debt.

    "But outside of a handful of areas like pop music, it’s hard to make up a list of how blacks have, on net, made whites much money over the last 150 years"

    Again, WHY would whites generally SEEK the help of blacks to build up the economy during the halcyon days of the Robber Baron/Captains Of Industry Age (1865-1910), the Roaring Twenties, or the post-World War II economic boom?

    Another blog post worth considering...

    "and easy, if forbidden, to notice how blacks destroyed many white urban homeowners’ net worths in the postwar era."

    How easy, Mr. Sailer?

    Replies: @Nico, @Anonymous Nephew

    Again, WHY would whites generally SEEK the help of blacks to build up the economy during the halcyon days of the Robber Baron/Captains Of Industry Age (1865-1910), the Roaring Twenties, or the post-World War II economic boom?

    I suspect that to the limited extent we did, it was out of a sense of self-consolation that as long as they were here, we might as well try to make SOME use of them, and that as long as we’re stuck with them, we just can’t get by believing they’re THAT bad…

  102. @Erik the Red
    Long-time iSteve reader here, and a "millennial.' I have gotten the strong impression, from (among other things) occasional Sailer-isms and quips - "When did African-Americans become living fossils?" springs immediately to mind - that people once felt cautiously optimistic about race relations. On another recent thread, someone left a comment to the effect that "self-improvement" or "self-empowerment" was a buzzword for blacks, maybe in the 70s. So this all begs the question: how would a Coates have been received in that epoch? I suspect he could have been squirreled away into an African-American Studies program and relative obscurity, but surely, his blatherings would not have exploded out onto the mainstream as they have here in 2015. Back in the 60s and 70s in particular, his weird mixture of passive-aggressiveness against whites and implicit admittance of black failure would have gone against the zeitgeist, no? The sisters (feminists) and brothers (blacks) were doin' it for themselves!

    For another matter: what led to mainstream whites being more cynical about giving blacks the benefit of the doubt, which seems to go hand-in-hand (correlation not being causation) with a more hopeless, hateful attitude among blacks? Some candidates that I would suspect: forced busing; rising crime and not unrelated to that, crack cocaine; rap music.

    "Generation gap" indeed on this one... we millennials grew up with MLK Jr. as a secular saint, and Lincoln too (one guess as to why). To use myself as an example: I am 29, so I was six years old when the LA Riots happened, and I haven't one memory of it; a few years later, OJ Simpson was just a guy in a white bronco on whom the adults had an odd fixation. If my generation couldn't even make sense of OJ as it happened, much less everything before it right back to the Civil Rights period, someone else will make sense of it for us. Better we hear it from people like Steve than the mendacious media and academia class that has been in charge of the culture for the last 50 years. Just today I saw an op-ed from the popular rap group Run the Jewels - on the BBC no less - that defends the view that "Riots work." This is not presented as a particularly controversial view, but airing a mainstream view against illegal immigration is "controversial." Who/whom; mendacious media.

    Replies: @Bill P, @IA

    “Generation gap” indeed on this one… we millennials grew up with MLK Jr. as a secular saint, and Lincoln too (one guess as to why).

    “Secular saint” is a contradiction in terms. There’s nothing secular about the cult of MLK. It is as much a religion as any church.

  103. So it’s difficult to imagine much negative impact on American per capita wealth in 2015 in an alternate universe without the slave trade.

    This article is pure fantasy, Steve. I had to double-check to confirm that it wasn’t written by J.R.R Tolkien.

    • Replies: @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    @Truth

    Steve offered a detailed argument for this assertion. Your snark is cute and all, but I see you didn't bother with any actual logical argument of your own. You and TNC, peas in a pod.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Truth

  104. @Dennis Dale
    @theo the kraut

    It's hard to pick a favorite, but the "plunder" argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain't. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the 'hood.
    TNC is the logical result of white condescension toward blacks and he's not the worst of it--people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child's understanding of reality. It's just shocking how bad he is; is the black bench that shallow, or is it that black talent is all being sucked up elsewhere?

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Lot, @Jay, @Luke Lea

    TNC is the logical result of LBJ’s War on Poverty. Watching this progression for 50 years has been a sad experience. Re the shallow bench, yes, the bench is miniscule and furthermore any black with talent becomes a physician. The reparations department has to get by with TNC.

  105. I never read much of TNC, but I recall that he was a favorite blogger of Rod Dreher over at The American Conservative. Out of curiosity, I checked out a couple of his pieces, and I wasn’t especially impressed. What impressed me more than his writing was the propensity of certain white “intellectuals” to praise the merits of this rather ordinary writer to high heaven. White guilt anyone? I have the impression that many of these same “intellectuals” who praise TNC would also be impressed by the “debating skills” of those two black babes from Towson U. that Steve Sailer posted about a week ago.

  106. @Lot
    Having spent a year and a half at a majority-black public school, there's something I know about Coates's childhood that neither he nor anybody else has mentioned yet: he was tormented by his peers about his gigantic lips.

    Kids are cruel to other kids about their appearance, and black kids are no exception. The black kids at the extreme ends of dark and light skin, for example, also got made fun of. As did the really fat or tall black kids, and the ones whose parents couldn't be bothered to obtain for them clothing without holes and stains.

    Coates's lips are larger than 99.5% of blacks and 99.95% of humanity.

    The most famous white guy with big lips is of course Mick Jagger, who is clearly at the extreme of his race:

    http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/mick-jagger-1943-granger.jpg

    Coates has Jagger outlipped by at least 300%:

    https://paristampa.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/coates1.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @BB753, @Harry Baldwin, @David, @p s c

    Yup, TNC has suffered a lot at the hands of blacks. That’s really obvious reading his book, but white people are so self-obsessed with hating other white people that they read TNC saying “Growing up, black people did horrible things X,Y, and Z to my black body, and that has to be the fault of people who believe they are white people because Racism,” and they take him seriously.

  107. La Griffe du Lion estimated the average IQ of blacks in the City of Baltimore at 76. Poor TNC is easily 30 points higher than that, and he’s a conspicuously huge — but extremely soft-looking — guy as well, so of course he got picked on by black thugs. And his daddy whupped him with a belt a lot.

    The poor fellow has issues.

  108. Here’s La Griffe on Baltimore City vs. Baltimore County IQs estimated off Maryland school achievement test scores:

    “Whereas suburban mean IQs (86 for blacks, 99 for whites) conform more or less to national norms, city IQs are dreadfully low. With a mean IQ of 76, inner-city blacks fall about 0.6 SD below the African American average nationally. More than a third have death-penalty immunity on grounds of mental retardation. The inner-city white mean of 86 is nearly a full standard deviation below the national white average. By this measure, whites fared worse than blacks. Both groups are seriously deficient in human capital. Neither is very employable. To compound matters, we almost certainly have overstated urban IQs. City residents constitute a low-IQ group extracted from a more cognitively representative population. Their kids, whose test scores we analyzed, should have regressed toward their racial means, i.e., toward higher IQs. That is, inner city kids are smarter than their parents. Accordingly, our estimates of inner-city IQs are best regarded as upper bounds to adult values.”

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/city.htm

    You could argue, plausibly, that the incompetence of Baltimore City public schools is artificially lowering results, but, in any case, consider what it must have felt like to be a sensitive, soft child like TNC.

    • Replies: @Ed
    @Steve Sailer

    Used to work for a major hospital in Baltimore (guess which one). During a budget meeting it was shared that there was a tremendous amount of vacancies in the housekeeping dept at the new hospital building they put up.

    These jobs paid $15 an hour with full benefits. The only requirements were no prison record, pass a drug test and pass a reading exam set at the 8th grade level.

    The manager complained that he couldn't find many to meet all requirements and that one in particular was the main culprit. So we all guessed which standard was tripping applicants up. Most of us guessed the prison record free standard was the problem. The manager said surprisingly that few applicants had a prison record. He said the reading exam tripped up most applicants. There were gasps in the room when he said that. He said most couldn't pass the exam for every 100 applicant he'd get about 10 that passed. Out of the 10 maybe 5 would pass the drug test. So he'd be left with about 5 potential hires. Usually 3-4 would have found something else or not bother to show up on first day. So he had to go through 100 applicants to get a hire.

    They ended up deciding to drop reading exam to 6th grade level which helped somewhat.

    Replies: @Arclight

  109. @Steve Sailer
    Here's La Griffe on Baltimore City vs. Baltimore County IQs estimated off Maryland school achievement test scores:

    "Whereas suburban mean IQs (86 for blacks, 99 for whites) conform more or less to national norms, city IQs are dreadfully low. With a mean IQ of 76, inner-city blacks fall about 0.6 SD below the African American average nationally. More than a third have death-penalty immunity on grounds of mental retardation. The inner-city white mean of 86 is nearly a full standard deviation below the national white average. By this measure, whites fared worse than blacks. Both groups are seriously deficient in human capital. Neither is very employable. To compound matters, we almost certainly have overstated urban IQs. City residents constitute a low-IQ group extracted from a more cognitively representative population. Their kids, whose test scores we analyzed, should have regressed toward their racial means, i.e., toward higher IQs. That is, inner city kids are smarter than their parents. Accordingly, our estimates of inner-city IQs are best regarded as upper bounds to adult values."

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/city.htm

    You could argue, plausibly, that the incompetence of Baltimore City public schools is artificially lowering results, but, in any case, consider what it must have felt like to be a sensitive, soft child like TNC.

    Replies: @Ed

    Used to work for a major hospital in Baltimore (guess which one). During a budget meeting it was shared that there was a tremendous amount of vacancies in the housekeeping dept at the new hospital building they put up.

    These jobs paid $15 an hour with full benefits. The only requirements were no prison record, pass a drug test and pass a reading exam set at the 8th grade level.

    The manager complained that he couldn’t find many to meet all requirements and that one in particular was the main culprit. So we all guessed which standard was tripping applicants up. Most of us guessed the prison record free standard was the problem. The manager said surprisingly that few applicants had a prison record. He said the reading exam tripped up most applicants. There were gasps in the room when he said that. He said most couldn’t pass the exam for every 100 applicant he’d get about 10 that passed. Out of the 10 maybe 5 would pass the drug test. So he’d be left with about 5 potential hires. Usually 3-4 would have found something else or not bother to show up on first day. So he had to go through 100 applicants to get a hire.

    They ended up deciding to drop reading exam to 6th grade level which helped somewhat.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @Ed

    Somewhat similar story from DC - Home Depot built its first store in Ward 5 and part of the deal was that they had to give preference in hiring to residents of that ward. The result was that the store was chronically understaffed with high turnover because they struggled to find any qualified people from the neighborhood. You also had to run a gauntlet of scores of illegal day workers clustering in various points in the parking lot.

  110. @Lot
    A few other random examples of really awful prose:

    From page 107:


    It had to be nails driven through tongue and ears pruned away. “Some disobedience,” wrote a Southern mistress
     

    It could only be the employment of carriage whips, tongs, iron pokers, handsaws, stones, paperweights, or whatever might be handy to break the black body, the black family, the black community, the black nation. The bodies were pulverized into stock and marked with insurance. And the bodies were an aspiration, lucrative as Indian land, a veranda, a beautiful wife, or a summer home in the mountains. For the men who needed to believe themselves white, the bodies were the key to a social club, and the right to break the bodies was the mark of civilization.
     
    "Pulverized into stock"? As in stock in a company? Or cooking stock? Or what? Pulverized means turned into powder, so soup stock makes more sense, though I think the way you make it is by boiling down. But then the stock "is marked with insurance." How do you mark anything with insurance, much less a financial instrument and/or soup ingredient?

    This greatest most essential book ever seems more to me like the work of a ranting schizophrenic.

    Go ahead and try to make sense of this passage, other "Whites suck and are responsible for blacks killing each other in Baltimore all the time":


    Disembodiment is a kind of terrorism, and the threat of it alters the orbit of all our lives and, like terrorism, this distortion is intentional. Disembodiment. The dragon that compelled the boys I knew, way back, into extravagant theater of ownership. Disembodiment. The demon that pushed the middle-class black survivors into aggressive passivity, our conversation restrained in public quarters, our best manners on display, our hands never out of pockets, our whole manner ordered as if to say “I made no sudden moves.” Disembodiment. The serpent of school years, demanding I be twice as good, though I was but a boy. Murder was all around us and we knew, deep in ourselves, in some silent space, that the author of these murders was beyond us, that it suited some other person’s ends. We were right.
     
    Now you'd think he'd at least have some sort of definition or statement on what he means by "Disembodiment" leading up to this passage. Amazon text search shows, however, the word is used repeatedly in this paragraph, once 90 pages earlier in passing, and that's it.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Clyde, @Pete

    Ta-Nehisi Coates has some Dylanesque imagery going on there with his rot about whites breaking black bodies with fireplace pokers and carriage whips. Maybe he is a pothead the way Jebitto was when he married that shrimpy wife. I am serious. Paris is very close to the marijuana paradise of Amsterdam.

  111. @Gary
    @ben tillman

    Wealth comes from petroleum, not people.

    Please elaborate.

    Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist

    Walk through a WalMart and observe what 70% of everything, down to the packaging, is made of.

  112. Lancashire is not in the Midlands.

  113. The most concise review of Coates’ book would be: “Citation needed.”

  114. @The Z Blog
    It's been the Roundhead versus the Cavaliers for a long time. Even after the the Roundhead in America vanquished the American Cavaliers, they still make war on their decedents.

    http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=5126

    There's no reasoning with fanatics.

    Replies: @SFG

    I think you mean ‘descendants’, though as the Confederate flag flap shows, they also make war on their decedents.

  115. @Arclight
    It is beyond irritating to see praise heaped on a featherweight intellectual like Coates. There is his undisguised hatred of white America and his almost comical overestimation of the economic value of blacks siphoned off by whites post Civil War, which of course entirely accounts for the massive wealth gap between whites and blacks in the present day. In Coates mind and writings, black Americans have bear absolutely no responsibility for the massive cultural and economic failure that affects their community, it's all an incredibly ingenious white plot.

    However, I am thinking we are already on the downhill slope of black political power, so the likelihood of anything Coates proposes coming to pass grows more remote each day. Blacks are going to go from second banana in the coalition of the left (whites are on top of course and will remain so) to the third wheel as Hispanics grow in numbers and economic clout, and they aren't particularly fond of blacks. The left will continue to toss some crumbs towards them but nothing major will get done unless Hispanics are on board with it and I am somewhat doubtful about how often their interests will align in the future.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @SFG

    I think at least some Hispanics will assimilate and go Republican. (No, this doesn’t mean we need more illegal immigrants.) Blacks, on the other hand, are likely to stay poor and hence Democratic for a very long time. So I think they will remain important.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    @SFG

    Somewhat important - their only use to the Democrats is in getting their black bodies to the polls at the appropriate time, and their dog-like loyalty has value in that regard.

    However, the flip side of the coin is that since Hispanics are growing and not as loyal to Dems (although still with a strong overall preference) the Dems will have to actually produce something for them to make sure they get the level of turnout they need for victory, especially as whites continue their 30+ year migration to the right.

    I also think that it is unlikely that we will ever see another black president in my lifetime - the left won't admit it, but now that they've checked that box they are going to be far more interested in getting a nominee with the appropriate genitalia or surname elected. Even a few of my liberal friends quietly will admit that they were excited about the significance of electing a black president but sorely disappointed in the results.

    Replies: @Hrw-500

    , @Hrw-500
    @SFG

    Speaking of Hispanics and Blacks, I saw here and there the following articles who might be some food for thoughts.
    http://www.newsmax.com/ArmstrongWilliams/Hispanic-Racism-blacks-immigrants/2014/11/18/id/608028/
    https://www.nationalcenter.org/P21NVBarberStatus91006.html
    This one was written in 2005.
    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2005/tensions-mounting-between-blacks-and-latinos-nationwide in case if it's been deleted because part of this text have some inconvienent truth, it's archived on the Internet Archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150807170637/https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2005/tensions-mounting-between-blacks-and-latinos-nationwide and at https://archive.is/Kywnt

    One guy said in this Youtube clip a very politically incorrect way, what he thought of "Black lives matter".
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKHvigVF68w

  116. IA says:
    @Erik the Red
    Long-time iSteve reader here, and a "millennial.' I have gotten the strong impression, from (among other things) occasional Sailer-isms and quips - "When did African-Americans become living fossils?" springs immediately to mind - that people once felt cautiously optimistic about race relations. On another recent thread, someone left a comment to the effect that "self-improvement" or "self-empowerment" was a buzzword for blacks, maybe in the 70s. So this all begs the question: how would a Coates have been received in that epoch? I suspect he could have been squirreled away into an African-American Studies program and relative obscurity, but surely, his blatherings would not have exploded out onto the mainstream as they have here in 2015. Back in the 60s and 70s in particular, his weird mixture of passive-aggressiveness against whites and implicit admittance of black failure would have gone against the zeitgeist, no? The sisters (feminists) and brothers (blacks) were doin' it for themselves!

    For another matter: what led to mainstream whites being more cynical about giving blacks the benefit of the doubt, which seems to go hand-in-hand (correlation not being causation) with a more hopeless, hateful attitude among blacks? Some candidates that I would suspect: forced busing; rising crime and not unrelated to that, crack cocaine; rap music.

    "Generation gap" indeed on this one... we millennials grew up with MLK Jr. as a secular saint, and Lincoln too (one guess as to why). To use myself as an example: I am 29, so I was six years old when the LA Riots happened, and I haven't one memory of it; a few years later, OJ Simpson was just a guy in a white bronco on whom the adults had an odd fixation. If my generation couldn't even make sense of OJ as it happened, much less everything before it right back to the Civil Rights period, someone else will make sense of it for us. Better we hear it from people like Steve than the mendacious media and academia class that has been in charge of the culture for the last 50 years. Just today I saw an op-ed from the popular rap group Run the Jewels - on the BBC no less - that defends the view that "Riots work." This is not presented as a particularly controversial view, but airing a mainstream view against illegal immigration is "controversial." Who/whom; mendacious media.

    Replies: @Bill P, @IA

    On another recent thread, someone left a comment to the effect that “self-improvement” or “self-empowerment” was a buzzword for blacks, maybe in the 70s. So this all begs the question: how would a Coates have been received in that epoch?

    About as well as gay marriage, breakfast-of-champions Jenner, and hip-hop.

    It’s not so much that blacks are rising (or for that matter, the Chinese, or Islam) it’s that Euros are falling.

    Blacks like Coates have been around since Malcolm X. He’s part of a long-term jihad encouraged by white Eloi who believe in nothing at all (other than their own careers). The psychic vacuum is exploited by professional-victim blacks, feminists, Muslims and queers.

  117. @Lot
    Having spent a year and a half at a majority-black public school, there's something I know about Coates's childhood that neither he nor anybody else has mentioned yet: he was tormented by his peers about his gigantic lips.

    Kids are cruel to other kids about their appearance, and black kids are no exception. The black kids at the extreme ends of dark and light skin, for example, also got made fun of. As did the really fat or tall black kids, and the ones whose parents couldn't be bothered to obtain for them clothing without holes and stains.

    Coates's lips are larger than 99.5% of blacks and 99.95% of humanity.

    The most famous white guy with big lips is of course Mick Jagger, who is clearly at the extreme of his race:

    http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/mick-jagger-1943-granger.jpg

    Coates has Jagger outlipped by at least 300%:

    https://paristampa.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/coates1.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @BB753, @Harry Baldwin, @David, @p s c

    Furthermore he was a bespectacled fat boy, and probably shy as well as well-behaved, way smarter than other black bodies, and his teens must have been hell.

  118. @Lot
    Having spent a year and a half at a majority-black public school, there's something I know about Coates's childhood that neither he nor anybody else has mentioned yet: he was tormented by his peers about his gigantic lips.

    Kids are cruel to other kids about their appearance, and black kids are no exception. The black kids at the extreme ends of dark and light skin, for example, also got made fun of. As did the really fat or tall black kids, and the ones whose parents couldn't be bothered to obtain for them clothing without holes and stains.

    Coates's lips are larger than 99.5% of blacks and 99.95% of humanity.

    The most famous white guy with big lips is of course Mick Jagger, who is clearly at the extreme of his race:

    http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/mick-jagger-1943-granger.jpg

    Coates has Jagger outlipped by at least 300%:

    https://paristampa.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/coates1.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @BB753, @Harry Baldwin, @David, @p s c

    Ta-Nehisi has got nothing on rapper MC Moeblak, whose lips Rihanna famously likened to a leather couch.

    http://archive.entertainmentwise.com/news/141615/rihanna-sparks-racism-row-after-comparing-black-mans-lips-to-leather-sofa

    I wonder if anyone made fun of Coates’ name, or is the black community beyond that at this point?

  119. @Ed
    @Steve Sailer

    Used to work for a major hospital in Baltimore (guess which one). During a budget meeting it was shared that there was a tremendous amount of vacancies in the housekeeping dept at the new hospital building they put up.

    These jobs paid $15 an hour with full benefits. The only requirements were no prison record, pass a drug test and pass a reading exam set at the 8th grade level.

    The manager complained that he couldn't find many to meet all requirements and that one in particular was the main culprit. So we all guessed which standard was tripping applicants up. Most of us guessed the prison record free standard was the problem. The manager said surprisingly that few applicants had a prison record. He said the reading exam tripped up most applicants. There were gasps in the room when he said that. He said most couldn't pass the exam for every 100 applicant he'd get about 10 that passed. Out of the 10 maybe 5 would pass the drug test. So he'd be left with about 5 potential hires. Usually 3-4 would have found something else or not bother to show up on first day. So he had to go through 100 applicants to get a hire.

    They ended up deciding to drop reading exam to 6th grade level which helped somewhat.

    Replies: @Arclight

    Somewhat similar story from DC – Home Depot built its first store in Ward 5 and part of the deal was that they had to give preference in hiring to residents of that ward. The result was that the store was chronically understaffed with high turnover because they struggled to find any qualified people from the neighborhood. You also had to run a gauntlet of scores of illegal day workers clustering in various points in the parking lot.

  120. @Anonymous
    ..............BBBREAKING!!!

    Is Caitlyn attracted to men, women or both?

    FIND OUT!

    http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/caitlyn-jenner-talks-sexuality-in-upcoming-episode-of-i-am-cait/story-fn8yvfst-1227474614263

    Replies: @Andrew Jackson

    Are you a 20 year old woman or what? What kind of weirdo thinks a group of predominantly white men needs constant updates on Caitlyn what’s her face?

  121. @Harry Baldwin
    @syonredux

    Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)

    I understand Coates is a comic book fan. Is there a Classics Comic of Hegel?

    Replies: @Ex Machina, @Hippolytus, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    “I understand Coates is a comic book fan.”

    Yeah, and I’ll bet he refers to them as “graphic novels.”

  122. @SFG
    @Arclight

    I think at least some Hispanics will assimilate and go Republican. (No, this doesn't mean we need more illegal immigrants.) Blacks, on the other hand, are likely to stay poor and hence Democratic for a very long time. So I think they will remain important.

    Replies: @Arclight, @Hrw-500

    Somewhat important – their only use to the Democrats is in getting their black bodies to the polls at the appropriate time, and their dog-like loyalty has value in that regard.

    However, the flip side of the coin is that since Hispanics are growing and not as loyal to Dems (although still with a strong overall preference) the Dems will have to actually produce something for them to make sure they get the level of turnout they need for victory, especially as whites continue their 30+ year migration to the right.

    I also think that it is unlikely that we will ever see another black president in my lifetime – the left won’t admit it, but now that they’ve checked that box they are going to be far more interested in getting a nominee with the appropriate genitalia or surname elected. Even a few of my liberal friends quietly will admit that they were excited about the significance of electing a black president but sorely disappointed in the results.

    • Replies: @Hrw-500
    @Arclight

    You might be on to something, I checked this blog post on VoxPopoli's (aka Voxday) blog written on March 16 2014 titled Tribalism comes to America and another one from November 2014 titled "The Great Partition had begun" about cracks and fractures in the coalition of minorities then the Democrats wished.

    Meanwhile, from a site called DailyKenn mentionning an article from MyFoxAustin about a brawl between Blacks and Hispanics.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVZlrSu1uyQ

  123. A question for anybody who read TNC’s book: did he really write that he didn’t know Prince Jones all that well as Caldwell points out? Just reading the reviews of the book I imagined that they were best friends or “more than just friends.” Now I assume he’s just using the incident to say “me too”to the Black Lives Matter™ crowd.

  124. @SFG
    @Arclight

    I think at least some Hispanics will assimilate and go Republican. (No, this doesn't mean we need more illegal immigrants.) Blacks, on the other hand, are likely to stay poor and hence Democratic for a very long time. So I think they will remain important.

    Replies: @Arclight, @Hrw-500

    Speaking of Hispanics and Blacks, I saw here and there the following articles who might be some food for thoughts.
    http://www.newsmax.com/ArmstrongWilliams/Hispanic-Racism-blacks-immigrants/2014/11/18/id/608028/
    https://www.nationalcenter.org/P21NVBarberStatus91006.html
    This one was written in 2005.
    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2005/tensions-mounting-between-blacks-and-latinos-nationwide in case if it’s been deleted because part of this text have some inconvienent truth, it’s archived on the Internet Archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150807170637/https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2005/tensions-mounting-between-blacks-and-latinos-nationwide and at https://archive.is/Kywnt

    One guy said in this Youtube clip a very politically incorrect way, what he thought of “Black lives matter”.

  125. @WhatEvvs
    @syonredux


    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium.
     
    Projection. Whiteness drives Coates crazy. It really does.

    Replies: @Anonymous Nephew

    I think he’s in denial about his white soul.

    “My mother bore me in the southern wild,
    And I am black, but O! my soul is white;
    White as an angel is the English child:
    But I am black as if bereav’d of light. “

    I’d feel sorry for him if what he does wasn’t so dangerous.

  126. @Corvinus
    "Atlantic essayist and blogger Ta-Nehisi Coates..."

    A race baiter. So, he wants reparations for blacks. It's a moot point. Why even give him any legitimacy?


    "You can tell that nobody takes very seriously the argument that African-Americans have been much of an economic boon for white Americans since 1860..."

    Perhaps that ought to be a subject of a blog post. You know, actually dig into specific facts and figures to test your hypothesis.

    Indeed, why would whites, notably southern whites, WANT the newly emancipated black in the post-Civil War era to be economically self-sufficient? Why would northern whites WANT competition for factory jobs? You seem to forget that blacks would not be particularly useful to whites post-Reconstruction because they, as a group, were "handicapped" and "hamstrung" for 400 years.

    However, a little research goes a long ways. Because in one regard a case can be made that blacks WERE important for the financial well-being for a particular group of white Americans. Beginning in the late 1860's, and making headway in the 1870's, southern white landowners depended upon black (and of course white) sharecroppers. North Carolina’s Landlord and Tenant Act of 1877 was typical of such an arrangement, placing full authority over the crop and settlement in the hands of the planter. The law made the sharecropper a wage earner rather than partner in the production of a crop. Some planters found excuses to dismiss tenant farmers just before their compensation was due. It is against this backdrop that the wealthiest owners maintained their concentrated ownership of the land, in large part by falsifying accounts at the end of each year to keep their workers in perpetual debt.

    "But outside of a handful of areas like pop music, it’s hard to make up a list of how blacks have, on net, made whites much money over the last 150 years"

    Again, WHY would whites generally SEEK the help of blacks to build up the economy during the halcyon days of the Robber Baron/Captains Of Industry Age (1865-1910), the Roaring Twenties, or the post-World War II economic boom?

    Another blog post worth considering...

    "and easy, if forbidden, to notice how blacks destroyed many white urban homeowners’ net worths in the postwar era."

    How easy, Mr. Sailer?

    Replies: @Nico, @Anonymous Nephew

    Is historical house price data by location available ? With that and the census a programmer could do some lovely animated maps, showing house price (inflation-adjusted) over time, alongside another map showing demographic change over time.

    (That’s more of a demo of the effect than quantifying an amount, but that should be easier)

  127. Noah Smith tweeted that Coates was better than Tolstoy. Reminds me of the Bellows’ quip than when the Zulus produce a Tolstoy we will read him. I tweeted in reply that Noah had obviously never read War and Peace, to which he replied that he had listened to it on tape. Abridged or unabridged? I asked, and did you pay attention all the way through? He didn’t say.

    Indeed, I’m trying to imagine what that would be like keeping track of the dozens of characters who are introduced in the opening chapters. Then there is the matter of the translation, the modern ones I’ve examined don’t stand up to the Constance Garnett translation with its 19th century feel. To say nothing of the quality of the reader.

    A big problem is that so few college graduates, even from elite schools, read serious literature anymore. They have never developed any taste, their idea of a great book is Lord of the Rings. Even better, they revel in Game of Thrones. A few years ago it was Sex in the City. You can see them on Bloggingheads.tv, a supposedly sophisticated site. In fact Coates has been on Bloggingheads a few times, going back to 2008.

    • Replies: @Honesthughgrant
    @Luke Lea


    Noah had obviously never read War and Peace, to which he replied that he had listened to it on tape. Abridged or unabridged? I asked, and did you pay attention all the way through? He didn’t say
     
    .

    Ha. I listened to whole thing, unabridged. Its the greatest novel ever written and I've read pretty much everything. I had to listen to it on tape because I couldn't keep those damn Russian names straight.

    Listening to great literature is often better than reading it because your really can enjoy the beauty and skill of great writer. You can savor every word. That's especially true of 19th century authors like Tolstoy and Dostoevsky.
  128. @syonredux

    And of course that’s pretty much what happened. The South was poor for the century after 1865 until it could rebuild itself along Northern corporate business lines, in which African-Americans are of course of minor importance.
     
    On a per capita basis, the South was poor prior to 1865.The Cotton Boom created fortunes for slave traders and the owners of large cotton plantations, but it didn't do much for the South as a whole.For example, just compare things like White literacy rates in Massachusetts and Mississippi, infrastructure (railways, steel-mills) etc.Visitors from Northern states to the South were always shocked by how poor so many of the native Whites were.In the North, that kind of poverty was largely confined to recent immigrants, particularly the Catholic Irish.

    And the lack of development in the South extended to the arts and the sciences:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.
     
    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Luke Lea, @AP

    re: the undeveloped character of the pre-Civil War South.

    Frederick Law Olmstead’s Cotton Kingdom is an invaluable first-hand report of what conditions were like. The majority of slave owner’s, if not the majority of slaves, worked on small farms shoulder to shoulder with their Red Neck masters who typically owned but one or two slaves, and they ate around the same dinner table in the evenings and slept under the same roof.. There were a lot of poor whites and n’er-do-wells he encountered on the back roads. One was complaining about a new man in the neighborhood, a Calvinist Presbyterian. What’s wrong with him? Olmstead asked. All they do is save, the man replied. There are a lot of good vignettes like that.

    The best eye-witness account of conditions on a big plantation I have ever encountered was written by the English actress Fannie Kemble, a talented writer and keen observer. She married a man who owned the biggest plantation in St. Simons (where I lived last year btw) and what she describes was in many ways a kind of semi-welfare state half-populated by the sick, the lame, and the old, pitiful people who were continuously besieging her for special favors and handouts. Unlike in the North, those who couldn’t work were not turned out on the streets.

  129. @Mr. Anon
    Reparation Now! Reparation Tomorrow! Reparation Forever!

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    re: reparations

    Isn’t the privilege of living in America reparations enough? If you take advantage of it (which Coates is btw) you profit from all that accumulated capital wealth, the investment of which makes affluence and freedom possible. What Coates doesn’t grasp is that the process of accumulation was global in scope: there was crime and exploitation, some of it far worse than anything that happened in America, on every continent save Antarctica. Fortunately for us today a lot of that wealth was not wasted and consumed, as it had been in pre-modern times, but was invested by Europeans, Jew and Christian alike, who used it to finance the Industrial Revolution and everything that followed. So, yes, a terrible human price was paid to build the modern world. But all our ancestors paid it, not just his alone. Whether we deserve it or not we are all joint heirs in Christ, to quote from the scriptures.

  130. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Note that Ryan is as Jewish as cream cheese on a bagel.His dad,a dentist adopted the K name for reasons of his own.

    It was a way to subtly signal to other members of the tribe that he is jewish. Much like dropping an “n” from “-mann,” spelling John as “Jon,” etc. Most goyim won’t pick up on it. The name change to Kavanaugh was crypsis; the “K” communicates something to the syndicate beneath the public veneer.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Anonymous


    It was a way to subtly signal to other members of the tribe that he is jewish. Much like dropping an “n” from “-mann,” spelling John as “Jon,” etc. Most goyim won’t pick up on it. The name change to Kavanaugh was crypsis; the “K” communicates something to the syndicate beneath the public veneer.
     
    "Kavanaugh" is a perfectly normal spelling:

    "Kavanagh" and "Kavanaugh" are anglicized variations of the Irish Gaelic surname Caomhánach (Cʌoṁʌ̃nʌċ in traditional Gaelic script).[2] The surname was first assumed by Domhnall Caomhánach, the eldest son of the 12th century King of Leinster, Diarmait Mac Murchada) in Ireland.[3] A considerable number of anglicized variations of Caomhánach exist, with some of the most common being: "Kavanagh", "Cavanagh", "Kavanaugh" and "Cavanaugh".[1]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavanagh_(surname)
  131. AP says:
    @syonredux

    And of course that’s pretty much what happened. The South was poor for the century after 1865 until it could rebuild itself along Northern corporate business lines, in which African-Americans are of course of minor importance.
     
    On a per capita basis, the South was poor prior to 1865.The Cotton Boom created fortunes for slave traders and the owners of large cotton plantations, but it didn't do much for the South as a whole.For example, just compare things like White literacy rates in Massachusetts and Mississippi, infrastructure (railways, steel-mills) etc.Visitors from Northern states to the South were always shocked by how poor so many of the native Whites were.In the North, that kind of poverty was largely confined to recent immigrants, particularly the Catholic Irish.

    And the lack of development in the South extended to the arts and the sciences:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.
     
    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Luke Lea, @AP

    And the lack of development in the South extended to the arts and the sciences

    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O’Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @AP


    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O’Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.
     
    Well, here's the relevant quote from Murray again:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.

    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).
     
    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)


    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that's 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That's three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O'Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

    As with Poe in the antebellum period, Faulkner stands in isolation as the sole Southern figure of the top-most rank.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.
     
    Latin America is a blank void compared to the USA.And, yes, many people have observed how the South has many affinities with Latin America.Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.




    *Surely someone has made that joke before

    ** Missouri was a border state and has both South and Mid-Western features.Plus, Twain's professional career was spent in places like California, Connecticut, London, etc.

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Luke Lea, @AP

  132. @syonredux
    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC's work, that "Whiteness" (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC's part.Hegel's theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the "Other"), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as "Other"), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)


    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to "Whites" (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. "Whites," in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.


    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a "D."

    Replies: @syonredux, @WhatEvvs, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea, @Pete

    re: Hegel’s master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was “I’d rather die than be a slave” and those whose motto was “I’d rather be a slave than die.” This was a class distinction in European society, separating the nobility from the peasantry. I find it remarkable, for instance, in my reading of European history how ready the nobility were prepared to lead and if necessary to die in defense of their class interests, whether threatened domestically or by foreign foe. Honor was more important than survival at the top of society. You don’t often see that kind of commitment among the elites in our democracy, at least not since WWII, individuals like Jim Webb being the exception that proves the rule.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Luke Lea


    re: Hegel’s master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was “I’d rather die than be a slave” and those whose motto was “I’d rather be a slave than die.”
     
    Yeah, that's the initial stage of the master-slave dialectic.Things progress from there, though, as the slave enjoys unmediated contact with nature via his status as a manual worker (There's been a lot of speculation about Hegel being influenced by the Haitian slave revolt).Meanwhile, the master, already dependent on the slave for recognition, becomes increasingly disconnected from reality (the slave being, in effect, his hands).Indeed, at the penultimate stage, the tables are turned, and it is the master who is enslaved to the slave's labor, etc

    Ultimately, of course, we are supposed to reach a higher synthesis, a place where only mutual recognition exists and the very concepts of master and slave melt away.....


    The whole things sounds an awful lot like Christianity, frankly:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 3:28-29
     

    Replies: @syonredux

  133. @syonredux
    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC's work, that "Whiteness" (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC's part.Hegel's theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the "Other"), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as "Other"), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)


    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to "Whites" (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. "Whites," in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.


    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a "D."

    Replies: @syonredux, @WhatEvvs, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea, @Pete

    re: Hegel’s master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was “I’d rather die than be a slave” and those whose motto was “I’d rather be a slave than die.” This was a class distinction in European society, separating the nobility from the peasantry. I find it remarkable, for instance, in my reading of European history how ready the nobility were prepared to lead and if necessary to die in defense of their class interests, whether threatened domestically or by foreign foe. Honor was more important than survival at the top of society. You don’t often see that kind of commitment among the ruling elites in our bourgeois democracy, at least not since WWII, individuals like Jim Webb being the exception that proves the rule. Anyway, that kind of master/slave relationship no longer exists anywhere in America, except maybe in prison or the ghetto.

  134. @Dennis Dale
    @theo the kraut

    It's hard to pick a favorite, but the "plunder" argument is pretty damn funny and illustrates the bizarro world of social justice, where robbers go where the money ain't. The largest economy in the world, focused on extracting all that value out of the 'hood.
    TNC is the logical result of white condescension toward blacks and he's not the worst of it--people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child's understanding of reality. It's just shocking how bad he is; is the black bench that shallow, or is it that black talent is all being sucked up elsewhere?

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Lot, @Jay, @Luke Lea

    “people are being attacked in the streets by blacks with a child’s understanding of reality”

    Needs to be said. thanks,

  135. From the excerpts, this book sounds like the black Mein Kampf, not that I’ve ever read Mein Kampf either.

  136. Just one last word on what I note in Coates’s and other black misery merchants’ and in indeed in white lib-progs’ misbegotten, and thus evasive, plaints:

    “Humankind cannot bear very much reality.” – T.S. Eliot

  137. “A hallmark of Coates’s style is the lurid metaphor that blurs the past and the present, the imaginary and the real, and incites ideological combat. “In America,” he writes, “there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife.””

    I would say this more nearly indicates that a hallmark of Coates’ style is insanity. Who believes any such thing? It is a ridiculous statement without any basis in fact. It reminded me of Robert Stack’s closing monologue in “Airplane”: “Do you know what it’s like to fall in the mud and get kicked… in the head… with an iron boot? Of course you don’t, no one does. It never happens. Sorry, Ted, that’s a dumb question… skip that.”

  138. @4teepee
    " . . . black economic resentment in recent years is focused upon, say, white rappers like Macklemore for 'appropriating' black innovations in popular music."

    I have long resented the "appropriating" by blacks of white musical instruments. ;-)

    By the way, I think reparations should first come from other Africans whose people sent the slaves away.

    Replies: @CK

    That would be refunds not reparations.

  139. @dravid
    @ivvenalis


    white people don’t exist
     
    Cuz they dont? They're generally fraction-equation people racially. There is no 'white race' as there is no brown race or black race. There are Anglos and Frenchmen, and Germans and Slavs. I see no 'white' people independent on blacks. There are Bengalis, Punjabis, Telegus etc. I see no 'brown' people independent of whites. etc etc.

    America isn't a white country you fool. It's an Anglo-Saxon country. Germans != Anglos != Swedes != French. If you're gonna be a racist atleast be a proper racist. Funniest shit is when you run into racist 'peripheral' 'whites' like the Italians or Jews or Irish or Russians that were treated like shit merely a generation ago.

    Groups that stick to simple colors (white, black etc) given large numbers are too outbred to ever become cohesive and will have smaller groups with stronger genetic cohesion/minority status run circles around them. This is why a 'white' status is never viable. By the time 'white' identity is meaningful 'whites' will be a total minority.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    “There is no ‘white race’ as there is no brown race or black race. There are Anglos and Frenchmen, and Germans and Slavs. I see no ‘white’ people independent on blacks………America isn’t a white country you fool. It’s an Anglo-Saxon country. Germans != Anglos !………”

    Anglo-Saxon != German? Where do you think Anglo Saxons came from, nitwit? You don’t know how to use prepositions either – “independent on”?

    Here’s some advice: don’t presume to lecture people and call them “fool”, when you yourself – quite obviously – are not very bright.

  140. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    People naturally seek moral-spiritual authority.

    Religious people look to God who is higher than any man.

    So, even the wronged, along with the wrong-doer, is humble before God.

    Among secular folks, there is no God or higher being above mankind.

    So, the wronged(at least those favored for holy victimhood) are the ultimate moral authority, god-like.

    Since Jews and blacks are seen as main victims, white Libs need to elect a new god of moral authority for every generation. And Coates is the new moral pharaoh of this generation, a figure of worship.

    Cons have this attitude too. Sowell and Carson may be good, but do they deserve the sanctimonious adulation?

    And since the holy victim is the ultimate moral authority, he gains godlike arrogance.
    And blacks and Jews are like that.

    And Jews need whites to worship black moral authority to check their white pride that might challenge Jewish power.

  141. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This points to something I thought when the Coates book came out– this is close to the last moment when you could get away with making these sweeping claims about the centrality of African-Americans to American history. I live in Chicago, where of course they’re politically quite important and their situation is everyone’s concern (depending on how far out in the suburbs you move, I suppose). But I grew up in Kansas, where despite Brown v. Board of Education (which was about Topeka), they were not nearly so central to politics. And it’s hard to see how they mattered at all to my mostly German Mennonite forebears, who went straight from the Ukraine (kicked out of Russia along with Tevye and his people) to farms in nowhere Kansas or Minnesota, probably barely seeing a black person along the way. You’re in pretty vague penumbras of white privilege when you talk how subsistence farming in Kansas in the 1880s is somehow built on stolen black wealth. (Tell it to the Indians, pal.)

    Today, the rise of Latinos by numbers and Asians by wealth and influence will certainly reduce the African-American influence further, and they’ll be competing for political attention with people who literally moved here a century and a half after slavery. Tell a Korean bodega owner (or his neurosurgeon son and concert violinist daughter) that you need a handout because poor and black people can’t make it in America and he’ll mock you as he throws you out. Which is no more than the Al Sharptons of the world deserve, but I suspect black America is going to have a rude awakening as it becomes just another constituency pandered to for a sliver of votes, not the key to all American politics.

    • Replies: @celt darnell
    @Anonymous

    Re: but I suspect black America is going to have a rude awakening as it becomes just another constituency pandered to for a sliver of votes, not the key to all American politics.

    You're right, of course, but the blacks' awakening won't be as rude as white Americans' when we're a just another minority, too.

  142. @Luke Lea
    Noah Smith tweeted that Coates was better than Tolstoy. Reminds me of the Bellows' quip than when the Zulus produce a Tolstoy we will read him. I tweeted in reply that Noah had obviously never read War and Peace, to which he replied that he had listened to it on tape. Abridged or unabridged? I asked, and did you pay attention all the way through? He didn't say.

    Indeed, I'm trying to imagine what that would be like keeping track of the dozens of characters who are introduced in the opening chapters. Then there is the matter of the translation, the modern ones I've examined don't stand up to the Constance Garnett translation with its 19th century feel. To say nothing of the quality of the reader.

    A big problem is that so few college graduates, even from elite schools, read serious literature anymore. They have never developed any taste, their idea of a great book is Lord of the Rings. Even better, they revel in Game of Thrones. A few years ago it was Sex in the City. You can see them on Bloggingheads.tv, a supposedly sophisticated site. In fact Coates has been on Bloggingheads a few times, going back to 2008.

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant

    Noah had obviously never read War and Peace, to which he replied that he had listened to it on tape. Abridged or unabridged? I asked, and did you pay attention all the way through? He didn’t say

    .

    Ha. I listened to whole thing, unabridged. Its the greatest novel ever written and I’ve read pretty much everything. I had to listen to it on tape because I couldn’t keep those damn Russian names straight.

    Listening to great literature is often better than reading it because your really can enjoy the beauty and skill of great writer. You can savor every word. That’s especially true of 19th century authors like Tolstoy and Dostoevsky.

  143. @Anonymous
    Putting cotton to one side, rhetorically speaking, surely tobacco, which was grown in massive slave labor plantations, was a massive money maker for the fledgling United States, and the base upon which much American wealth was founded.

    I would hate to estimate the tonnage of 'Virginia tobacco' which was imported - and is still being imported - into the UK alone *these past 400 years* - but considering the rapacious tobacco habits the English had throughout the centuries and had up to 4 decades ago, the quantity, and the amount of gold shipped out to pay for it must have been truly enormous.

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Boomstick

    Planters sank a lot of capital into buying slaves, and that capital vanished when the slaves were freed. From a strictly economic standpoint it was like setting fire to cash. During the Civil War the factories and farms of the south were being literally, not figuratively, destroyed, and after the Civil War the price of cotton dropped by half.

    US wealth has as its basis high productivity factory, railroad, and intellectual work, not physical labor. The US industrial plant wasn’t financed by tobacco growers or cotton farmers. In point of historical fact it was largely financed by British capital during the 19th century and from internal industrial retained earnings. That’s why great southern fortunes are so rare, in contrast to the Mellons, Carnegies, Vanderbilts, and Rockefellers. Quick, are there any dynastic 19th century robber barons who had as the source of their fortunes….growing cotton?

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Boomstick

    TNC is unintentionally funny when he starts talking economics.If you've ever read his blog, you'll note that he loves to dilate on how much money all of those antebellum slaves were worth.Apparently, he can't quite work his brain around the fact that all of those slaves were a drag on the economy....

  144. @Luke Lea
    @syonredux

    re: Hegel's master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was "I'd rather die than be a slave" and those whose motto was "I'd rather be a slave than die." This was a class distinction in European society, separating the nobility from the peasantry. I find it remarkable, for instance, in my reading of European history how ready the nobility were prepared to lead and if necessary to die in defense of their class interests, whether threatened domestically or by foreign foe. Honor was more important than survival at the top of society. You don't often see that kind of commitment among the elites in our democracy, at least not since WWII, individuals like Jim Webb being the exception that proves the rule.

    Replies: @syonredux

    re: Hegel’s master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was “I’d rather die than be a slave” and those whose motto was “I’d rather be a slave than die.”

    Yeah, that’s the initial stage of the master-slave dialectic.Things progress from there, though, as the slave enjoys unmediated contact with nature via his status as a manual worker (There’s been a lot of speculation about Hegel being influenced by the Haitian slave revolt).Meanwhile, the master, already dependent on the slave for recognition, becomes increasingly disconnected from reality (the slave being, in effect, his hands).Indeed, at the penultimate stage, the tables are turned, and it is the master who is enslaved to the slave’s labor, etc

    Ultimately, of course, we are supposed to reach a higher synthesis, a place where only mutual recognition exists and the very concepts of master and slave melt away…..

    The whole things sounds an awful lot like Christianity, frankly:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 3:28-29

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @syonredux

    I think that it was Nietzsche who famously said that Christianity is Platonism for the masses. Perhaps Hegelianism is Christianity for the elite?

  145. @syonredux
    @Luke Lea


    re: Hegel’s master/slave relationship

    As I recall the distinction Hegel made was between those whose motto was “I’d rather die than be a slave” and those whose motto was “I’d rather be a slave than die.”
     
    Yeah, that's the initial stage of the master-slave dialectic.Things progress from there, though, as the slave enjoys unmediated contact with nature via his status as a manual worker (There's been a lot of speculation about Hegel being influenced by the Haitian slave revolt).Meanwhile, the master, already dependent on the slave for recognition, becomes increasingly disconnected from reality (the slave being, in effect, his hands).Indeed, at the penultimate stage, the tables are turned, and it is the master who is enslaved to the slave's labor, etc

    Ultimately, of course, we are supposed to reach a higher synthesis, a place where only mutual recognition exists and the very concepts of master and slave melt away.....


    The whole things sounds an awful lot like Christianity, frankly:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 3:28-29
     

    Replies: @syonredux

    I think that it was Nietzsche who famously said that Christianity is Platonism for the masses. Perhaps Hegelianism is Christianity for the elite?

  146. @Boomstick
    @Anonymous

    Planters sank a lot of capital into buying slaves, and that capital vanished when the slaves were freed. From a strictly economic standpoint it was like setting fire to cash. During the Civil War the factories and farms of the south were being literally, not figuratively, destroyed, and after the Civil War the price of cotton dropped by half.

    US wealth has as its basis high productivity factory, railroad, and intellectual work, not physical labor. The US industrial plant wasn't financed by tobacco growers or cotton farmers. In point of historical fact it was largely financed by British capital during the 19th century and from internal industrial retained earnings. That's why great southern fortunes are so rare, in contrast to the Mellons, Carnegies, Vanderbilts, and Rockefellers. Quick, are there any dynastic 19th century robber barons who had as the source of their fortunes....growing cotton?

    Replies: @syonredux

    TNC is unintentionally funny when he starts talking economics.If you’ve ever read his blog, you’ll note that he loves to dilate on how much money all of those antebellum slaves were worth.Apparently, he can’t quite work his brain around the fact that all of those slaves were a drag on the economy….

  147. The review was the most depressing thing I’ve read in a while. This is the great intellectual of our time. On MSNBC, Melissa Harris-Perry calls the space she and her viewers occupy as “Nerdland” because they use all the latest PC buzz words and understand academic gibberish.

    Why doesn’t some lesser known intellectual pick a fight with Coates in the way that the lesser candidates in the Republican field are trying to fight with Trump? It would be a great way to get exposure.

    • Replies: @Jason Bayz
    @Hepp

    Cornell West has:

    http://observer.com/2015/07/cornel-west-delivers-blistering-takedown-of-ta-nehisi-coates/

    Replies: @Anon, @Bert, @Anon, @Hepp

  148. @Arclight
    @SFG

    Somewhat important - their only use to the Democrats is in getting their black bodies to the polls at the appropriate time, and their dog-like loyalty has value in that regard.

    However, the flip side of the coin is that since Hispanics are growing and not as loyal to Dems (although still with a strong overall preference) the Dems will have to actually produce something for them to make sure they get the level of turnout they need for victory, especially as whites continue their 30+ year migration to the right.

    I also think that it is unlikely that we will ever see another black president in my lifetime - the left won't admit it, but now that they've checked that box they are going to be far more interested in getting a nominee with the appropriate genitalia or surname elected. Even a few of my liberal friends quietly will admit that they were excited about the significance of electing a black president but sorely disappointed in the results.

    Replies: @Hrw-500

    You might be on to something, I checked this blog post on VoxPopoli’s (aka Voxday) blog written on March 16 2014 titled Tribalism comes to America and another one from November 2014 titled “The Great Partition had begun” about cracks and fractures in the coalition of minorities then the Democrats wished.

    Meanwhile, from a site called DailyKenn mentionning an article from MyFoxAustin about a brawl between Blacks and Hispanics.

  149. @FactsAreImportant
    @Lot


    The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn’t know what “abeyance” means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.

    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. “the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris”? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?
     

    I've run into this before when dealing with black "intellectuals".

    It is gibberish. Big and pretentious words strung together with no logical linkages. They have memorized the words and know enough syntax and grammar to string them into apparently coherent phrases. But, the logic constantly breaks down, and, at its worst, the phrases don't even make sense.

    Schizophrenics (honest-to-God schizophrenics, not metaphorical schizophrenics) write and speak the same way. Individual phrases make sense, but there are constant shifts in the narrative or the logic every few sentences or phrases.

    It is intentional. When you begin to show you comprehend their fraudulence, they shift into hyper-gibberish mode to intimidate you into thinking you haven't understood their profundity because your are stupid or don't understand blacks, and if that doesn't work, to dare you to call them on it out loud. Almost no one speaks up because almost everyone desperately wants them to be authentic.

    Replies: @Danindc, @Pete

    Ha. John Thompson, the Georgetown coach had a sports talk show in DC for 15 years if you can believe it. I don’t think he even knew basketball. He’d talk in a similar fashion. I always told my friends if you actually write down what he says you’ll find that it’s gibberish. 15 years.

  150. Coates should get 23-and-me. He looks to have some ancestors who thought they were white. Maybe it is his filial duty to beat the black part of his body.

  151. @Lot
    Having spent a year and a half at a majority-black public school, there's something I know about Coates's childhood that neither he nor anybody else has mentioned yet: he was tormented by his peers about his gigantic lips.

    Kids are cruel to other kids about their appearance, and black kids are no exception. The black kids at the extreme ends of dark and light skin, for example, also got made fun of. As did the really fat or tall black kids, and the ones whose parents couldn't be bothered to obtain for them clothing without holes and stains.

    Coates's lips are larger than 99.5% of blacks and 99.95% of humanity.

    The most famous white guy with big lips is of course Mick Jagger, who is clearly at the extreme of his race:

    http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/mick-jagger-1943-granger.jpg

    Coates has Jagger outlipped by at least 300%:

    https://paristampa.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/coates1.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @BB753, @Harry Baldwin, @David, @p s c

    That’s interesting. I just did a quick estimate in the mirror. The area of my nose (in a 2D image) is about 3 times that of my lips whereas TNC’s nose is more like 80% of his lips. I wonder how lips like full organs would help in the battle for existence.

  152. @Hepp
    The review was the most depressing thing I've read in a while. This is the great intellectual of our time. On MSNBC, Melissa Harris-Perry calls the space she and her viewers occupy as "Nerdland" because they use all the latest PC buzz words and understand academic gibberish.

    Why doesn't some lesser known intellectual pick a fight with Coates in the way that the lesser candidates in the Republican field are trying to fight with Trump? It would be a great way to get exposure.

    Replies: @Jason Bayz

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Jason Bayz

    Envy.

    , @Bert
    @Jason Bayz

    I may not agree with Cornel West on much of anything, but damn he is enjoyable to listen to.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @Anon
    @Jason Bayz

    West is hilarious.

    He says Coates is favored by white and black neo-liberals because he doesn't address 'homophobic degradation'.

    What?????

    The New Liberalism is all about worship of homos 24/7.

    West is a liar, a fool, a tard.

    , @Hepp
    @Jason Bayz

    He's seen as a buffoon though, and as a fellow black hitting him from the left it's no big deal. Academic leftists are a dime a dozen.

    However, a white conservative intellectual (with tenure hopefully) hitting this guy hard would get a lot of attention. It would be nice if he were an economist or historian who could show Coates doesn't even know what he's talking about.

  153. @Jason Bayz
    @Hepp

    Cornell West has:

    http://observer.com/2015/07/cornel-west-delivers-blistering-takedown-of-ta-nehisi-coates/

    Replies: @Anon, @Bert, @Anon, @Hepp

    Envy.

  154. @Jason Bayz
    @Hepp

    Cornell West has:

    http://observer.com/2015/07/cornel-west-delivers-blistering-takedown-of-ta-nehisi-coates/

    Replies: @Anon, @Bert, @Anon, @Hepp

    I may not agree with Cornel West on much of anything, but damn he is enjoyable to listen to.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Bert

    Coates should say to him:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxFbbF8b2m8

  155. @Bert
    @Jason Bayz

    I may not agree with Cornel West on much of anything, but damn he is enjoyable to listen to.

    Replies: @Anon

    Coates should say to him:

  156. @AP
    @syonredux


    And the lack of development in the South extended to the arts and the sciences
     
    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O'Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.

    Replies: @syonredux

    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O’Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.

    Well, here’s the relevant quote from Murray again:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.

    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that’s 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That’s three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O’Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

    As with Poe in the antebellum period, Faulkner stands in isolation as the sole Southern figure of the top-most rank.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.

    Latin America is a blank void compared to the USA.And, yes, many people have observed how the South has many affinities with Latin America.Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.

    *Surely someone has made that joke before

    ** Missouri was a border state and has both South and Mid-Western features.Plus, Twain’s professional career was spent in places like California, Connecticut, London, etc.

    • Replies: @Honesthughgrant
    @syonredux

    The track record of Southerners in Science, Engineering, Industry, Medicine and Invention is pretty thin as a ratio to their population. Not as bad as the Aussies or Irish - but pretty low.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @Luke Lea
    @syonredux

    Southern accomplishment

    Eliot may have been of New England stock (as am I btw on my father's side) but he was born south of the Mason Dixon Line and grew up with a southern accent (which he quickly ditched). A lot of Eliot's inferiority complex derived from his birth.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    , @AP
    @syonredux


    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that’s 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That’s three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O’Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

     

    I think one needs to take into account the South's social structure, which as you have correctly confirmed was indeed similar to that of Latin America and pre-Communist Eastern Europe. The South seems to have consisted of a class of highly educated, refined people and a lot of illiterate or barely literate "peasants," black and white. The South's population may not have been vastly smaller than the North's, but a lot of those Southerners were slaves or uneducated poor whites. The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South - but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries; likewise Twain and perhaps Faulkner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America's greatest playwright.

    I don't know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South's invention of jazz music.

    Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.
     
    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author. Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.

    Here is a list of greatest American writers. The list isn't gospel (it's by something called askme.com) but I suppose it roughly represents consensus:

    http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/73d_top_10_list.html

    Southerners come in at #2 (Poe), #3 (Twain, okay quasi-Southerner), #4 (Faulkner), and #9 (Williams).

    Replies: @syonredux, @Reg Cæsar, @Jefferson

  157. @Anonymous
    Note that Ryan is as Jewish as cream cheese on a bagel.His dad,a dentist adopted the K name for reasons of his own.

    It was a way to subtly signal to other members of the tribe that he is jewish. Much like dropping an "n" from "-mann," spelling John as "Jon," etc. Most goyim won't pick up on it. The name change to Kavanaugh was crypsis; the "K" communicates something to the syndicate beneath the public veneer.

    Replies: @syonredux

    It was a way to subtly signal to other members of the tribe that he is jewish. Much like dropping an “n” from “-mann,” spelling John as “Jon,” etc. Most goyim won’t pick up on it. The name change to Kavanaugh was crypsis; the “K” communicates something to the syndicate beneath the public veneer.

    “Kavanaugh” is a perfectly normal spelling:

    “Kavanagh” and “Kavanaugh” are anglicized variations of the Irish Gaelic surname Caomhánach (Cʌoṁʌ̃nʌċ in traditional Gaelic script).[2] The surname was first assumed by Domhnall Caomhánach, the eldest son of the 12th century King of Leinster, Diarmait Mac Murchada) in Ireland.[3] A considerable number of anglicized variations of Caomhánach exist, with some of the most common being: “Kavanagh”, “Cavanagh”, “Kavanaugh” and “Cavanaugh”.[1]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavanagh_(surname)

  158. @syonredux
    @AP


    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O’Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.
     
    Well, here's the relevant quote from Murray again:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.

    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).
     
    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)


    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that's 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That's three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O'Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

    As with Poe in the antebellum period, Faulkner stands in isolation as the sole Southern figure of the top-most rank.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.
     
    Latin America is a blank void compared to the USA.And, yes, many people have observed how the South has many affinities with Latin America.Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.




    *Surely someone has made that joke before

    ** Missouri was a border state and has both South and Mid-Western features.Plus, Twain's professional career was spent in places like California, Connecticut, London, etc.

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Luke Lea, @AP

    The track record of Southerners in Science, Engineering, Industry, Medicine and Invention is pretty thin as a ratio to their population. Not as bad as the Aussies or Irish – but pretty low.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Honesthughgrant

    "The track record of Southerners in Science, Engineering, Industry, Medicine and Invention is pretty thin as a ratio to their population. Not as bad as the Aussies or Irish – but pretty low."

    Jeff Foxworthy once made a joke about how funny it would sound if a highly educated doctor had a very strong blue collar redneck Southern accent. It would also sound funny if a highly educated doctor had an extremely strong blue collar New Yawk accent like Fran Drescher in The Nanny or Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny.

    I notice that many White Americans in highly respected white collar professions who live in states with a strong regional accent, try to adopt a generic American accent.

  159. @Truth

    So it’s difficult to imagine much negative impact on American per capita wealth in 2015 in an alternate universe without the slave trade.
     
    This article is pure fantasy, Steve. I had to double-check to confirm that it wasn't written by J.R.R Tolkien.

    Replies: @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    Steve offered a detailed argument for this assertion. Your snark is cute and all, but I see you didn’t bother with any actual logical argument of your own. You and TNC, peas in a pod.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    His snark is tiresome, as is he himself. Stupid people are tiresome.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @Truth
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    I would be making the same "logical arguments" I have been making here for 8 years. Unz has built a site in which you can go back and check the Canon, be my guest. otherwise it's a waste of my time.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

  160. @Jason Bayz
    @Hepp

    Cornell West has:

    http://observer.com/2015/07/cornel-west-delivers-blistering-takedown-of-ta-nehisi-coates/

    Replies: @Anon, @Bert, @Anon, @Hepp

    West is hilarious.

    He says Coates is favored by white and black neo-liberals because he doesn’t address ‘homophobic degradation’.

    What?????

    The New Liberalism is all about worship of homos 24/7.

    West is a liar, a fool, a tard.

  161. Coates’ idea of never forgiving should be familiar to any husband whose wife has caught him being unfaithful. Never enough mea culpa, never enough money….they want that hammer to hold over you.

  162. @Honesthughgrant
    @Anonymous


    Putting cotton to one side, rhetorically speaking, surely tobacco, which was grown in massive slave labor plantations, was a massive money maker for the fledgling United States, and the base upon which much American wealth was founded.
     
    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton. The wealth of the USA was built on Industry, Coal, Oil, and wheat.

    The poorest part of the country was supported by Cotton and Tobacco.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Truth

    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton.

    Well, there’s a bit of tobacco grown just north of the Mason-Dixon line:

    http://reesephoto.me/tag/tobacco/

  163. http://hill.cm/6POqVpt

    Has anyone asked…

    if black lives matter, why do so many blacks kill blacks?

  164. @Jason Bayz
    @Hepp

    Cornell West has:

    http://observer.com/2015/07/cornel-west-delivers-blistering-takedown-of-ta-nehisi-coates/

    Replies: @Anon, @Bert, @Anon, @Hepp

    He’s seen as a buffoon though, and as a fellow black hitting him from the left it’s no big deal. Academic leftists are a dime a dozen.

    However, a white conservative intellectual (with tenure hopefully) hitting this guy hard would get a lot of attention. It would be nice if he were an economist or historian who could show Coates doesn’t even know what he’s talking about.

  165. @Lot
    Having spent a year and a half at a majority-black public school, there's something I know about Coates's childhood that neither he nor anybody else has mentioned yet: he was tormented by his peers about his gigantic lips.

    Kids are cruel to other kids about their appearance, and black kids are no exception. The black kids at the extreme ends of dark and light skin, for example, also got made fun of. As did the really fat or tall black kids, and the ones whose parents couldn't be bothered to obtain for them clothing without holes and stains.

    Coates's lips are larger than 99.5% of blacks and 99.95% of humanity.

    The most famous white guy with big lips is of course Mick Jagger, who is clearly at the extreme of his race:

    http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/mick-jagger-1943-granger.jpg

    Coates has Jagger outlipped by at least 300%:

    https://paristampa.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/coates1.jpg

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @BB753, @Harry Baldwin, @David, @p s c

    Large lips are referred to as “Soup Coolers” in the street vernacular. See Urban Dictionary for more information.

  166. @Lot
    A few other random examples of really awful prose:

    From page 107:


    It had to be nails driven through tongue and ears pruned away. “Some disobedience,” wrote a Southern mistress
     

    It could only be the employment of carriage whips, tongs, iron pokers, handsaws, stones, paperweights, or whatever might be handy to break the black body, the black family, the black community, the black nation. The bodies were pulverized into stock and marked with insurance. And the bodies were an aspiration, lucrative as Indian land, a veranda, a beautiful wife, or a summer home in the mountains. For the men who needed to believe themselves white, the bodies were the key to a social club, and the right to break the bodies was the mark of civilization.
     
    "Pulverized into stock"? As in stock in a company? Or cooking stock? Or what? Pulverized means turned into powder, so soup stock makes more sense, though I think the way you make it is by boiling down. But then the stock "is marked with insurance." How do you mark anything with insurance, much less a financial instrument and/or soup ingredient?

    This greatest most essential book ever seems more to me like the work of a ranting schizophrenic.

    Go ahead and try to make sense of this passage, other "Whites suck and are responsible for blacks killing each other in Baltimore all the time":


    Disembodiment is a kind of terrorism, and the threat of it alters the orbit of all our lives and, like terrorism, this distortion is intentional. Disembodiment. The dragon that compelled the boys I knew, way back, into extravagant theater of ownership. Disembodiment. The demon that pushed the middle-class black survivors into aggressive passivity, our conversation restrained in public quarters, our best manners on display, our hands never out of pockets, our whole manner ordered as if to say “I made no sudden moves.” Disembodiment. The serpent of school years, demanding I be twice as good, though I was but a boy. Murder was all around us and we knew, deep in ourselves, in some silent space, that the author of these murders was beyond us, that it suited some other person’s ends. We were right.
     
    Now you'd think he'd at least have some sort of definition or statement on what he means by "Disembodiment" leading up to this passage. Amazon text search shows, however, the word is used repeatedly in this paragraph, once 90 pages earlier in passing, and that's it.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Clyde, @Pete

    “The bodies were pulverized into stock and marked with insurance.”

    Perhaps this is an extremely clumsy way of saying that YT metaphorically converted the bodies into “stock” as in “cattle”, and then branded the cattle with his mark to indicate ownership.

    Guy’s a terrible writer. Bukowski had a great quote that relates to this aspect of Coate’s writing, about the difference between art and the abstract. If I remember correctly, the gist of his quote that was that art lies in saying meaningful things in a new and original way, and abstraction is saying nothing by clumsily using words that don’t mean anything in the attempt to sound artistic.

  167. @syonredux
    Whiteness, by contrast, is presented as a figment of the imagination, a kind of delirium. Strictly speaking, there are no whites, there are only “these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that they are white.” Sometimes Coates calls this belief “the Dream,” a concept he conflates with the American Dream. The Dream is not just a “deceitful” but an utterly malevolent force. It is what justifies the plunder of blacks:

    “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies. Sometimes this power is direct (lynching), and sometimes it is insidious (redlining). But however it appears, the power of domination and exclusion is central to the belief in being white, and without it, “white people” would cease to exist for want of reasons.

    This theme—that whiteness, in all its falsity, is parasitical on blackness, in all its authenticity—is one he returns to again and again:

    There is no them without you, and without the right to break you they must necessarily fall from the mountain, lose their divinity, and tumble out of the Dream. And then they would have to determine how to build their suburbs on something other than human bones, how to angle their jails toward something other than a human stockyard, how to erect a democracy independent of cannibalism. But because they believe themselves to be white, they would rather countenance a man choked to death on film under their laws.
     
    Caldwell homes in on a key conceit in TNC's work, that "Whiteness" (the scare-quotes are obligatory in this kind of writing) is artificial, a manifestation of the Hegelian master-slave dialectic.Of course, this is far from original on TNC's part.Hegel's theory, universal in intent and application, has been appropriated and particularized by a host of thinkers: Fanon (Whites as the masters, Blacks as the slaves), Simone de Beauvoir (Men as the masters, women as the "Other"), Said (the West as the masters, the Orient as "Other"), etc. Fanon is obviously the direct influence here (I suspect that TNC has never bothered to actually read Hegel, even in excerpted form)


    What is intriguing, though, is how TNC (A Black nationalist to the core) accords inauthenticity only to "Whites" (the ones who occupy the symbolic position of master).Proper postmodernists usually pay at least lip-service to the notion that the Slave-Other is equally artificial and without essence, as his existence is predicated on the existence of the master.TNC avoids this step.To him, Blacks-Black bodies are real and authentic. "Whites," in contrast, are pure parasites and exist only in opposition to Blacks.


    Frankly, if TNC were in a Critical Theory Class that I was teaching (for my sins, that burden has fallen on me from time to time; I try to concentrate on theorists who interest me, men like Kant and Hume), I would give him a "D."

    Replies: @syonredux, @WhatEvvs, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea, @Pete

    A syndicate “arrayed”? Does he mean “arranged” here?

    His assumption that the dialectic only defines the White while the Black exists in isolation as a being of absolute authenticity possibly stems from the fact that he is a magic negro, and thus believes that he has the magical ability to create his own private logic, just as he seems to believe he has the magical ability to forge his own private definitions of words.

    Or maybe the guy is just a nutball.

  168. @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    I can understand the notion of reparations - I mean these are the richest, most successful black people in the history of the world.

    I do think, though, that it would be gauche to force them to pay for being delivered from benighted Africa. Just a hearty thank you should suffice.

    Replies: @Pete, @Anonymous

    “When I saw Africa, I was damn glad my granpappy got on that boat!” —Muhammad Ali

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Pete

    "“When I saw Africa, I was damn glad my granpappy got on that boat!” —Muhammad Ali"

    Muhammad Ali must also be glad that significant racial miscegenation took place in the U.S between Sub Saharan Africans and Europeans because he always had a preference for Mulatto looking women over Black women who look like they came straight out of The Congo.

  169. @Anonymous
    Does Coates ever write about American Indians? Presumably if he ever does think or write about them, it's in a way that serves his general pro-black/anti-white paradigm. But it's interesting to note that he seems to more or less ignore them altogether, which is odd since an obvious implication of his grievance narrative is that Indians have claims against blacks. The fact that he isn't even compelled to address this just demonstrates how blatantly self-serving his writing is.

    Replies: @Pete, @Pete

    Blacks in general don’t seem to identify with other “marginalized” groups as much as they see them as threats to their control of the highly lucrative grievance industry.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Pete

    "Blacks in general don’t seem to identify with other “marginalized” groups as much as they see them as threats to their control of the highly lucrative grievance industry."

    This is true, that is why the vast majority of Blacks have zero interest in learning about Auschwitz concentration camps, the Armenian genocide, and the internment of the Japanese in the U.S for example.

    They believe the Black race has a monopoly on suffrage and that no other group has ever had it anywhere near as bad as they did.

  170. @Anonymous
    Does Coates ever write about American Indians? Presumably if he ever does think or write about them, it's in a way that serves his general pro-black/anti-white paradigm. But it's interesting to note that he seems to more or less ignore them altogether, which is odd since an obvious implication of his grievance narrative is that Indians have claims against blacks. The fact that he isn't even compelled to address this just demonstrates how blatantly self-serving his writing is.

    Replies: @Pete, @Pete

    I think the central message to all of Coates’ work and the work of black writers like him boils down to a reimagining of the famous Marx quote thusly: “To blacks according to their wants, from Whites according to their abilities.”

  171. There was one great Southern fortune made in tobacco, the Dukes from American Tobacco Company in the late 19th century. But that was the result of manufacturing and marketing, not tobacco growing.

    Duke adopted the cigarette rolling machine early and did a classic roll-up of a fragmented brand market. ATC achieved monopoly status and was one of the early victims of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Combined with the mass markets enabled by rail transportation, ATC, like other nascent retailers of the age, created some of the great early worldwide consumer brands. This all happened well after slavery and in any event ATC left the growers and field laborers alone. The value created was the product of marketing and industrial organization, not field labor or black bodies.

    Southern textile mills were a source of wealth growth from the 1880’s through the 1920’s. Textile factories almost exclusively employed white working class women for indoor labor and excluded blacks from those jobs. The great boom period was mostly financed by Northerners. Coates would probably argue that the wealth generated by the textile factories rested on black bones by both using black labor and by not using black labor because he’s incoherent that way.

    And of course the great Northern industrial growth and the railways had nothing to do with black labor. Black labor had essentially become obsolete after the end of slavery, and the capital accumulated by the slave system was destroyed by the Civil War.

  172. @FactsAreImportant
    @Lot


    The best part of the article is showing that the Greatest Writer in American History, our Foremost Public Intellectual, doesn’t know what “abeyance” means, but uses the word anyway:

    Remember the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris, as though the city had been built in abeyance of Pompeii.

    The rest of the sentence is pretty bad too. “the rumbling we all felt under the beauty of Paris”? Was he riding a bumpy section of Le Metro?
     

    I've run into this before when dealing with black "intellectuals".

    It is gibberish. Big and pretentious words strung together with no logical linkages. They have memorized the words and know enough syntax and grammar to string them into apparently coherent phrases. But, the logic constantly breaks down, and, at its worst, the phrases don't even make sense.

    Schizophrenics (honest-to-God schizophrenics, not metaphorical schizophrenics) write and speak the same way. Individual phrases make sense, but there are constant shifts in the narrative or the logic every few sentences or phrases.

    It is intentional. When you begin to show you comprehend their fraudulence, they shift into hyper-gibberish mode to intimidate you into thinking you haven't understood their profundity because your are stupid or don't understand blacks, and if that doesn't work, to dare you to call them on it out loud. Almost no one speaks up because almost everyone desperately wants them to be authentic.

    Replies: @Danindc, @Pete

    “It is gibberish. Big and pretentious words strung together with no logical linkages. They have memorized the words and know enough syntax and grammar to string them into apparently coherent phrases. But, the logic constantly breaks down, and, at its worst, the phrases don’t even make sense.”

    Yes! I see that over, and over, and over. I assume they have internalized an idea or stereotype of how educated people are supposed to speak, but are lacking some crucial intellectual component that enables one to think lucidly at the level corresponding to such speech.

    There was a great sketch on the old Living Color show. Damon Wayans played a black prisoner who had self-educated to what he believed to be a high intellectual level. Sitting in his cell, he would stare through the bars at you and imperiously declaim something like “In the inferences of the spatial paradigm, one must assume that the CRUX (emphatic gesturing) of the diatribe is relevant to the APOSTASY of the philosophical journey, to which end I FLAGGELATE the exposition of the incommunicado REVISIONISM…”

  173. @International Jew
    I wonder, if blacks themselves started to believe TNC's nonsense, could that kick off a latter-day Afrozionist movement to depart for Liberia?

    Nah.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Anonymous, @David R. Merridale

    Another question is, Do blacks read TNC?

  174. @Anonymous
    @Auntie Analogue

    My feeling exactly. Coates is a talentless, dumb bum. His only distinction is of being black who can write in unbroken English.

    Replies: @Pete

    Occasionally unbroken English, anyway…

  175. @syonredux
    @AP


    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O’Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.
     
    Well, here's the relevant quote from Murray again:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.

    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).
     
    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)


    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that's 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That's three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O'Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

    As with Poe in the antebellum period, Faulkner stands in isolation as the sole Southern figure of the top-most rank.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.
     
    Latin America is a blank void compared to the USA.And, yes, many people have observed how the South has many affinities with Latin America.Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.




    *Surely someone has made that joke before

    ** Missouri was a border state and has both South and Mid-Western features.Plus, Twain's professional career was spent in places like California, Connecticut, London, etc.

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Luke Lea, @AP

    Southern accomplishment

    Eliot may have been of New England stock (as am I btw on my father’s side) but he was born south of the Mason Dixon Line and grew up with a southern accent (which he quickly ditched). A lot of Eliot’s inferiority complex derived from his birth.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Luke Lea

    Southern accomplishment (cont.)

    @ syon

    And besides Thomas Eliot, let us not forget Lincoln, who was definitely a product of the hillbilly south.

    So there you have it: the greatest modern man and the greatest lyric poet writing in English since Shakespeare both native sons of the South. Combine them with Jefferson, Washington, and Madison (plus Alexander Hamilton too, in a way) and if you set the standard high enough the balance swings the other way! (I am being half facetious in case you are wondering.)

    Replies: @syonredux

  176. @Luke Lea
    @syonredux

    Southern accomplishment

    Eliot may have been of New England stock (as am I btw on my father's side) but he was born south of the Mason Dixon Line and grew up with a southern accent (which he quickly ditched). A lot of Eliot's inferiority complex derived from his birth.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    Southern accomplishment (cont.)

    @ syon

    And besides Thomas Eliot, let us not forget Lincoln, who was definitely a product of the hillbilly south.

    So there you have it: the greatest modern man and the greatest lyric poet writing in English since Shakespeare both native sons of the South. Combine them with Jefferson, Washington, and Madison (plus Alexander Hamilton too, in a way) and if you set the standard high enough the balance swings the other way! (I am being half facetious in case you are wondering.)

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Luke Lea


    Southern accomplishment

    Eliot may have been of New England stock (as am I btw on my father’s side) but he was born south of the Mason Dixon Line and grew up with a southern accent (which he quickly ditched). A lot of Eliot’s inferiority complex derived from his birth.
     

    All of which goes to show how essentially New England he was

    And besides Thomas Eliot, let us not forget Lincoln, who was definitely a product of the hillbilly south.
     
    Not really.Cf Fischer's observations on Lincoln's ancestry in Albion's Seed (836-37).Lincoln's ancestry was a combination of New England Puritan (The founder of the family in America, Samuel Lincoln, emigrated from East Anglia to Massachusetts Bay in 1637) and Pennsylvania Quaker (Lincoln's ancestors immigrated to PA and intermarried with the local Quakers).For that matter, note how Lincoln's father made an early decision to Leave Kentucky and move to Indiana and Illinois.Flight from the South

    Combine them with Jefferson, Washington, and Madison (plus Alexander Hamilton too, in a way)
     
    Of American political figures, the only one who counts as a significant figure in the arts and the sciences is Benjamin Franklin (the Autobiography, electrical theory, demography, etc), and he was very much a New Englander

    (I am being half facetious in case you are wondering.)
     
    I detected the undercurrent
  177. @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    @Truth

    Steve offered a detailed argument for this assertion. Your snark is cute and all, but I see you didn't bother with any actual logical argument of your own. You and TNC, peas in a pod.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Truth

    His snark is tiresome, as is he himself. Stupid people are tiresome.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Mr. Anon


    His snark is tiresome, as is he himself. Stupid people are tiresome.
     
    Now Grasshopper, your phony dissapproval of me, by negating PRACTICALLY EVERY POST I EVERY MAKE (of course it's phony, otherwise you would ignore them), cannot be healthy. We've been over this for many, many years now. Now I'm not a doctor, but It's an obsession that cannot be good for your health.

    Isn't there one, Senior-Citizen-White-Man hobby that appeals to you? I suggested scrimshaw, and model airplanes a few weeks ago; maybe you would derive a great deal of pleasure trying to build a ship inside a little bottle...
  178. @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    @Truth

    Steve offered a detailed argument for this assertion. Your snark is cute and all, but I see you didn't bother with any actual logical argument of your own. You and TNC, peas in a pod.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Truth

    I would be making the same “logical arguments” I have been making here for 8 years. Unz has built a site in which you can go back and check the Canon, be my guest. otherwise it’s a waste of my time.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Truth

    Good that you at least put "logical arguments" in quotes. There is nothing logical about anything you write. Your every post is waste of time. So quit wasting our time, and go away. There are no shortage of places on the web were we could get blackity-black blackness. We don't need it here, from you. We are most of us sick to death of blackness in all its forms.

    And that IS all you are good for - blackity-black blackness. Like almost all blacks, your universe begins and ends with yourself. You really are the most useless, tiresome, self-centered, and ignorant race.

  179. @Honesthughgrant
    @Anonymous


    Putting cotton to one side, rhetorically speaking, surely tobacco, which was grown in massive slave labor plantations, was a massive money maker for the fledgling United States, and the base upon which much American wealth was founded.
     
    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton. The wealth of the USA was built on Industry, Coal, Oil, and wheat.

    The poorest part of the country was supported by Cotton and Tobacco.

    Replies: @ben tillman, @Truth

    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton.

    For Christsakes, Sport; WITH PROFITS FROM COTTON. Where do you think all those Big Jew Banks in Philadelphia made their loans?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0131_030203_jubilee2_2.html

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    @Truth

    Nah. First of all, money is fungible. Just because Jones supplied the investment capital for a factory doesn't mean Smith couldn't supply it. If those "jew banks" in Philadelphia didn't have money the British could happily supply it. The factors for American industrialization were there, and capital would have flowed to it in any event.

    Three major centers for US industrialization in the 19th century are textiles, iron & steel, and railroads.

    The growth of the New England textile companies in the early 19th century was financed almost entirely by internal funds. The capital investments required weren't that large.

    The Mellons supplied venture capital to the early Pittsburgh area iron and steel industry. Where'd they get their money? Background on Mellon pere and his progeny:

    "He moved to Pittsburgh, studied law and married Sarah Jane Negley, in 1843–mother to a son, Andrew, and seven other children. He became a judge–forever after known simply as the Judge–and used his income to invest in real estate. He eventually used the returns from foreclosed properties and coal land to start a bank, T. Mellon & Sons. It opened in December 1869 with $10,000 in initial deposits, according to Mellon: An American Life by Princeton professor David Cannadine. Within three years he had $800,000. That little bank has grown into a cornerstone of what today is the $1.6 trillion (assets) BNY Mellon.
    ...
    He became a turn-of-the-century venture capitalist. In 1889 Andrew made a $25,000 loan to the Pittsburgh Reduction Co., an aluminum manufacturer, and subsequently purchased equity in the company. Profits rose from $87,000 in 1898 to $322,000 in 1900–then quickly crested the million-dollar mark. The company today is known as Alcoa....A decade later he put $1 million into creating Union Steel. He sold it four years later to J.P. Morgan’s U.S. Steel, likely making at least $41 million on its sale. "

    Carnegie often raised capital from British investment sources.

    So the Mellon fortune and a large chunk of the American steel industry had as a capital source a canny lawyer with an eye for real estate and his son's far sighted investments, and British capital markets.

    The railroads were to a large extent a real estate play--the government granted a checkerboard pattern of sections along the right of way to the company building the railroad, who then sold the land or made use of the resources, such as timber. The initial construction costs were often bond-backed, and the British were again investors. In the antebellum period the British were selling iron rails for the construction of US railroads, sometimes accepting railroad bonds in lieu of cash.

    You'll notice that wealthy Southern cotton and tobacco farmers don't figure much in this story, mostly because there weren't many of them, and they didn't have that much money. Their investments in slaves had been expropriated, and the area they lived in had been burned and looted during the war. As a general rule producing agricultural commodities is not much of a wealth-generating business.

    Capital isn't something deeply mysterious; the real skill is the intelligence behind the investment.

  180. @Truth
    @Honesthughgrant




    Complete nonsense. All of the USA north of the Mason-Dixon line and West of the Mississippi was developed without Tobacco or Cotton.
     
    For Christsakes, Sport; WITH PROFITS FROM COTTON. Where do you think all those Big Jew Banks in Philadelphia made their loans?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0131_030203_jubilee2_2.html

    Replies: @Boomstick

    Nah. First of all, money is fungible. Just because Jones supplied the investment capital for a factory doesn’t mean Smith couldn’t supply it. If those “jew banks” in Philadelphia didn’t have money the British could happily supply it. The factors for American industrialization were there, and capital would have flowed to it in any event.

    Three major centers for US industrialization in the 19th century are textiles, iron & steel, and railroads.

    The growth of the New England textile companies in the early 19th century was financed almost entirely by internal funds. The capital investments required weren’t that large.

    The Mellons supplied venture capital to the early Pittsburgh area iron and steel industry. Where’d they get their money? Background on Mellon pere and his progeny:

    “He moved to Pittsburgh, studied law and married Sarah Jane Negley, in 1843–mother to a son, Andrew, and seven other children. He became a judge–forever after known simply as the Judge–and used his income to invest in real estate. He eventually used the returns from foreclosed properties and coal land to start a bank, T. Mellon & Sons. It opened in December 1869 with $10,000 in initial deposits, according to Mellon: An American Life by Princeton professor David Cannadine. Within three years he had $800,000. That little bank has grown into a cornerstone of what today is the $1.6 trillion (assets) BNY Mellon.

    He became a turn-of-the-century venture capitalist. In 1889 Andrew made a $25,000 loan to the Pittsburgh Reduction Co., an aluminum manufacturer, and subsequently purchased equity in the company. Profits rose from $87,000 in 1898 to $322,000 in 1900–then quickly crested the million-dollar mark. The company today is known as Alcoa….A decade later he put $1 million into creating Union Steel. He sold it four years later to J.P. Morgan’s U.S. Steel, likely making at least $41 million on its sale. ”

    Carnegie often raised capital from British investment sources.

    So the Mellon fortune and a large chunk of the American steel industry had as a capital source a canny lawyer with an eye for real estate and his son’s far sighted investments, and British capital markets.

    The railroads were to a large extent a real estate play–the government granted a checkerboard pattern of sections along the right of way to the company building the railroad, who then sold the land or made use of the resources, such as timber. The initial construction costs were often bond-backed, and the British were again investors. In the antebellum period the British were selling iron rails for the construction of US railroads, sometimes accepting railroad bonds in lieu of cash.

    You’ll notice that wealthy Southern cotton and tobacco farmers don’t figure much in this story, mostly because there weren’t many of them, and they didn’t have that much money. Their investments in slaves had been expropriated, and the area they lived in had been burned and looted during the war. As a general rule producing agricultural commodities is not much of a wealth-generating business.

    Capital isn’t something deeply mysterious; the real skill is the intelligence behind the investment.

  181. If those “jew banks” in Philadelphia didn’t have money the British could happily supply it. The factors for American industrialization were there, and capital would have flowed to it in any event.

    And they did!

    http://revealinghistories.org.uk/how-did-money-from-slavery-help-develop-greater-manchester/articles/fuelling-the-industrial-revolution.html

    (but that really doesn’t change the original point)

    http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/11/19/slavery-economy-baptist

    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    @Truth

    Thank you Truth for informing us about how blacks caused the Industrial Revolution by offering their black bodies for sale.

    Replies: @Truth

    , @The most deplorable one
    @Truth

    Truth, I really do have to thank you for getting me in touch with the thesis of Eric Williams and Colin Palmer.

    In particular, this review states:


    In doing so, it challenges one-hundred years of British imperial historiography by making the controversial argument that the causes of abolition and emancipation were economic, not humanitarian.
     
    I am going to read the book to see how well I think it holds up because it sounds very similar to my arguments about certain things in the US as well.

    Just because I do not think that all human groups are equally capable intellectually does not mean that I am not open to interesting arguments about historical realities.
    , @Boomstick
    @Truth

    The industrial revolution's success rested on industrialization, not cheap cotton. That's why it's called the industrial revolution--mechanization dropped the price and increased the supply of textiles by making the weaving process vastly cheaper and more efficient. The Manchester textile mills would have been revolutionary providers of low-cost textiles with slightly more expensive free market cotton (or wool!) from the US, India, or Egypt.

    Your argument is approximately that of someone arguing today that the value of the iPhone is provided by the bauxite miners that supply the aluminum ore that is used to manufacture the case.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one

    , @Boomstick
    @Truth

    Let's conduct a thought experiment. Eli Whitney invents the cotton gin, but five years before that slavery had been abolished. What would have happened?

    Cotton would still have been grown in the US, but the labor would have been supplied on the free market rather than on slave terms. The cotton grown would probably have been a bit more expensive, but not hugely so. The market premium on slaves was in the 5-10% range, indicating that slave owners were gaining something from forced labor, but that the same crops could have been grown by free men for approximately the same price. Certainly rising cotton prices before the war did nothing to stop the industrial revolution. The Manchester mills would have still existed, because their revolutionary impact was in driving the cost of weaving to near zero compared to the prior practice of home weaving. And this ignores the likely cotton farm productivity increases that would have resulted from market forces operating on agriculture in the south. The ugly truth is that all agricultural labor was not far above subsistence level, and so the price differential between free and slave labor was small.

    In economics you compare a choice to the replacement costs for that choice. Without slavery the alternative isn't the lack of a textile industry, or the absence of cotton cultivation, or the lack of US exports of cotton. It's slightly more expensive cotton. Maybe. But the economic activity would have still been there. Those black bodies were a minor factor in the end.

    And the south's wealth was destroyed by the war, anyway. Southern planters didn't finance the northern steel mills of the late 19th century.

  182. @Mr. Anon
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    His snark is tiresome, as is he himself. Stupid people are tiresome.

    Replies: @Truth

    His snark is tiresome, as is he himself. Stupid people are tiresome.

    Now Grasshopper, your phony dissapproval of me, by negating PRACTICALLY EVERY POST I EVERY MAKE (of course it’s phony, otherwise you would ignore them), cannot be healthy. We’ve been over this for many, many years now. Now I’m not a doctor, but It’s an obsession that cannot be good for your health.

    Isn’t there one, Senior-Citizen-White-Man hobby that appeals to you? I suggested scrimshaw, and model airplanes a few weeks ago; maybe you would derive a great deal of pleasure trying to build a ship inside a little bottle…

  183. @Luke Lea
    @Luke Lea

    Southern accomplishment (cont.)

    @ syon

    And besides Thomas Eliot, let us not forget Lincoln, who was definitely a product of the hillbilly south.

    So there you have it: the greatest modern man and the greatest lyric poet writing in English since Shakespeare both native sons of the South. Combine them with Jefferson, Washington, and Madison (plus Alexander Hamilton too, in a way) and if you set the standard high enough the balance swings the other way! (I am being half facetious in case you are wondering.)

    Replies: @syonredux

    Southern accomplishment

    Eliot may have been of New England stock (as am I btw on my father’s side) but he was born south of the Mason Dixon Line and grew up with a southern accent (which he quickly ditched). A lot of Eliot’s inferiority complex derived from his birth.

    All of which goes to show how essentially New England he was

    And besides Thomas Eliot, let us not forget Lincoln, who was definitely a product of the hillbilly south.

    Not really.Cf Fischer’s observations on Lincoln’s ancestry in Albion’s Seed (836-37).Lincoln’s ancestry was a combination of New England Puritan (The founder of the family in America, Samuel Lincoln, emigrated from East Anglia to Massachusetts Bay in 1637) and Pennsylvania Quaker (Lincoln’s ancestors immigrated to PA and intermarried with the local Quakers).For that matter, note how Lincoln’s father made an early decision to Leave Kentucky and move to Indiana and Illinois.Flight from the South

    Combine them with Jefferson, Washington, and Madison (plus Alexander Hamilton too, in a way)

    Of American political figures, the only one who counts as a significant figure in the arts and the sciences is Benjamin Franklin (the Autobiography, electrical theory, demography, etc), and he was very much a New Englander

    (I am being half facetious in case you are wondering.)

    I detected the undercurrent

  184. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Truth

    If those “jew banks” in Philadelphia didn’t have money the British could happily supply it. The factors for American industrialization were there, and capital would have flowed to it in any event.
     
    And they did!

    http://revealinghistories.org.uk/how-did-money-from-slavery-help-develop-greater-manchester/articles/fuelling-the-industrial-revolution.html

    (but that really doesn't change the original point)

    http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/11/19/slavery-economy-baptist

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @The most deplorable one, @Boomstick, @Boomstick

    Thank you Truth for informing us about how blacks caused the Industrial Revolution by offering their black bodies for sale.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @The most deplorable one

    By Golly I think he's got it!

    That along with the Indians graciously donating land to Caucasoid 503c's.

  185. The black narrative seems to be…”You have it because you took it from us.” or “We don’t have it because you didn’t give us a chance to have it.” or “You make it too hard for us to get it.” Ad nauseam . Years ago I was the co-director of an Affirmative Action program to provide blacks training for jobs in the construction (building) trades. Admittedly blacks were under represented in the trades, but many were employed as tradesmen in local industry. The driving force was the impending construction of a new campus for the SUNY University at Buffalo . The black community envisioned 10,000 new jobs for this project, and wanted a proportional share. There was no way a black electrician, sheet metal worker or welder, working at a steel mill or engine plant was going to give up job security to work the broken hours of a construction tradesman. The problem was that the black community wasn’t interested in the slow process of an apprenticeship. They wanted journey jobs without the 3 or 4 year apprenticeship. The one thing that stood out in all the countless meetings I attended was the lack of basic knowledge about the subject (construction, and construction jobs ) that the black community leaders brought to the conversation. I had a college degree, a three year apprenticeship, a journeyman card and 10 years in my trade. the trade unions were represented by the union presidents, business agents and international union representatives. The Construction Industry Employers Association were represented by their director of operations and various owners, superintendents and VPs of operations. The blacks were always represented by community leaders and assorted reverends, never by anyone with knowledge of construction or hiring practices. This disparity let to unrealistic expectations for job opportunities. The blacks envisioned thousands of jobs for a phase that might require 100 tradesmen at most. This unrealistic thought process caused the black activists to think that jobs were being held back to deny them jobs. Nothing was resolved, the program ended and I went back to construction. The dozen or so blacks that were hired to run and administer this AA program immediately found employment in another government funded program. I see the same thing happening today. The voices of the black community, chosen or self appointed in whatever fashion known only to them, are still woefully ignorant of the topic that they espouse. TNC as an expert on economics for instance. His statements carry weight beyond their validity, because he is a “black’ spokesman.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Buffalo Joe


    The Construction Industry Employers Association were represented by their director of operations and various owners, superintendents and VPs of operations. The blacks were always represented by community leaders and assorted reverends, never by anyone with knowledge of construction or hiring practices. This disparity let to unrealistic expectations for job opportunities. The blacks envisioned thousands of jobs for a phase that might require 100 tradesmen at most. This unrealistic thought process caused the black activists to think that jobs were being held back to deny them jobs.
     
    This is fair, accurate, and unfortunately true in many fields.
  186. AP says:
    @syonredux
    @AP


    I dunno about the arts. Faulkner, Capote, Tennessee Williams, Poe (born in Boston, but grew up in Virginia), Flannery O’Connor, jazz music. Twain almost counts, his native Missouri was on the border and a slave state.
     
    Well, here's the relevant quote from Murray again:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1.

    (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).
     
    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)


    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that's 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That's three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O'Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

    As with Poe in the antebellum period, Faulkner stands in isolation as the sole Southern figure of the top-most rank.

    The South seemed to be roughly comparable to Latin America and pre-commie Eastern Europe in its social structure, with brilliant educated nobles and a lot of peasants.
     
    Latin America is a blank void compared to the USA.And, yes, many people have observed how the South has many affinities with Latin America.Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.




    *Surely someone has made that joke before

    ** Missouri was a border state and has both South and Mid-Western features.Plus, Twain's professional career was spent in places like California, Connecticut, London, etc.

    Replies: @Honesthughgrant, @Luke Lea, @AP

    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that’s 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That’s three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O’Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

    I think one needs to take into account the South’s social structure, which as you have correctly confirmed was indeed similar to that of Latin America and pre-Communist Eastern Europe. The South seems to have consisted of a class of highly educated, refined people and a lot of illiterate or barely literate “peasants,” black and white. The South’s population may not have been vastly smaller than the North’s, but a lot of those Southerners were slaves or uneducated poor whites. The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South – but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries; likewise Twain and perhaps Faulkner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America’s greatest playwright.

    I don’t know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South’s invention of jazz music.

    Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.

    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author. Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.

    Here is a list of greatest American writers. The list isn’t gospel (it’s by something called askme.com) but I suppose it roughly represents consensus:

    http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/73d_top_10_list.html

    Southerners come in at #2 (Poe), #3 (Twain, okay quasi-Southerner), #4 (Faulkner), and #9 (Williams).

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @AP


    The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South – but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries;
     
    Unless you're French, I don't think that anyone would argue that Poe was greater than Melville or Hawthorne or Whitman or Emily Dickinson

    likewise Twain
     
    As I noted upthread, Twain is more of a quasi-Southerner, Missouri being a border state with both Mid-Western and Southern characteristics.And he spent his entire active career outside of the South: California, Connecticut, Europe, etc

    And I'm not sure that critics would agree that he was greater than Henry James....

    and perhaps Faulkner.
     
    In contrast to Twain, Faulkner was an echt Southerner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America’s greatest playwright.
     
    Intentionally.A Streetcar Named Desire (Williams' first masterpiece) appeared in 1945, which marks my cut-off date.

    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author.
     
    The consensus within the Anglosphere is that he is one of the greatest American authors.In terms of American novelists (defining the term rather loosely as an extended prose narrative) who were active prior to 1945, the greats are usually regarded as being: Hawthorne, Melville, Henry James, Twain, and William Faulkner.Fitzgerald typically hovers just at the border.

    Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.
     
    In this instance, their judgment largely coincides with the Anglosphere's verdict.Of the interwar big three, Faulkner is held to be first, with Hemingway and Fitzgerald tied for second place.

    I don’t know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South’s invention of jazz music.
     
    RE: Jazz,

    It just doesn't seem to be all that impressive when compared to the European symphonic tradition (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc

    Replies: @James Kabala, @SPMoore8

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @AP


    I don’t know if particular jazz composers are in the list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South’s invention of jazz music.
     
    The 32-bar song forms and the Broadway musical don't qualify as "something"? Consider that at a typical jazz concert, much of the material was written and published in New York City. Often on just two streets, W 28th, and Broadway.

    Jazz isn't a compositional genre, it's a performance genre. Almost all American styles are, particularly the Southern. Jazz and blues picked up steam climbing the latitude ladder: Memphis, St Louis, Kansas City, Chicago.

    Actually, few Southerners were involved in the creation of the "great American songbook". Hugh Martin from Birmingham was probably the top composer they produced. Johnny Mercer of Savannah is America's greatest lyricist, but was only a once-in-a-while, if competent, composer. (His mom was Croatian, to boot. Hardly typical of Georgia!) Texan team Tom Jones and Harvey Schmidt appeared near the end of Broadway's golden age.

    You might count Hoagy Carmichael and Isham Jones, too, but they grew up in Indiana and Michigan, respectively. Cole Porter might've been Southern on his father's side (I'm still looking into it), but his drive clearly came from his mother's Yankee Coles.

    Old-stock WASPs were second only to the hyperactive Jews in composing this music-- they left Italians, Irish and Germans in the dust-- but they tended to be Midwesterners or New Yorkers (downstate and up-) and usually part-Yankee, but never all. Something about hybrid vigor, I guess.
    , @Jefferson
    @AP

    "I think one needs to take into account the South’s social structure, which as you have correctly confirmed was indeed similar to that of Latin America and pre-Communist Eastern Europe. The South seems to have consisted of a class of highly educated, refined people and a lot of illiterate or barely literate “peasants,” black and white."

    Unlike the South, most of Latin America never had a large White peasant underclass. You can find some small pockets of White poverty in Argentina and Southern Brazil that can resemble West Virginia. But for the most part the vast majority of poor people in Latin America could never be racially categorized as White trash.

    This White Brazilian woman named Maria Das Gracas Silva Foster went from living in bone crushing poverty to becoming a multi-millionaire CEO and chemical engineer.
    http://i.forbesimg.com/media/lists/people/maria-das-gracas-silva-foster_416x416.jpg

    But she definitely does not represent the typical racial face of Latin Americans who are born into poverty. She is the exception and not the rule. If she was the rule, most of the poor Latin Americans flooding into the U.S would look White but they don't.

  187. @Truth
    @fredyetagain aka superhonky

    I would be making the same "logical arguments" I have been making here for 8 years. Unz has built a site in which you can go back and check the Canon, be my guest. otherwise it's a waste of my time.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Good that you at least put “logical arguments” in quotes. There is nothing logical about anything you write. Your every post is waste of time. So quit wasting our time, and go away. There are no shortage of places on the web were we could get blackity-black blackness. We don’t need it here, from you. We are most of us sick to death of blackness in all its forms.

    And that IS all you are good for – blackity-black blackness. Like almost all blacks, your universe begins and ends with yourself. You really are the most useless, tiresome, self-centered, and ignorant race.

  188. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Truth

    If those “jew banks” in Philadelphia didn’t have money the British could happily supply it. The factors for American industrialization were there, and capital would have flowed to it in any event.
     
    And they did!

    http://revealinghistories.org.uk/how-did-money-from-slavery-help-develop-greater-manchester/articles/fuelling-the-industrial-revolution.html

    (but that really doesn't change the original point)

    http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/11/19/slavery-economy-baptist

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @The most deplorable one, @Boomstick, @Boomstick

    Truth, I really do have to thank you for getting me in touch with the thesis of Eric Williams and Colin Palmer.

    In particular, this review states:

    In doing so, it challenges one-hundred years of British imperial historiography by making the controversial argument that the causes of abolition and emancipation were economic, not humanitarian.

    I am going to read the book to see how well I think it holds up because it sounds very similar to my arguments about certain things in the US as well.

    Just because I do not think that all human groups are equally capable intellectually does not mean that I am not open to interesting arguments about historical realities.

  189. @The most deplorable one
    @Truth

    Thank you Truth for informing us about how blacks caused the Industrial Revolution by offering their black bodies for sale.

    Replies: @Truth

    By Golly I think he’s got it!

    That along with the Indians graciously donating land to Caucasoid 503c’s.

  190. @Buffalo Joe
    The black narrative seems to be..."You have it because you took it from us." or "We don't have it because you didn't give us a chance to have it." or "You make it too hard for us to get it." Ad nauseam . Years ago I was the co-director of an Affirmative Action program to provide blacks training for jobs in the construction (building) trades. Admittedly blacks were under represented in the trades, but many were employed as tradesmen in local industry. The driving force was the impending construction of a new campus for the SUNY University at Buffalo . The black community envisioned 10,000 new jobs for this project, and wanted a proportional share. There was no way a black electrician, sheet metal worker or welder, working at a steel mill or engine plant was going to give up job security to work the broken hours of a construction tradesman. The problem was that the black community wasn't interested in the slow process of an apprenticeship. They wanted journey jobs without the 3 or 4 year apprenticeship. The one thing that stood out in all the countless meetings I attended was the lack of basic knowledge about the subject (construction, and construction jobs ) that the black community leaders brought to the conversation. I had a college degree, a three year apprenticeship, a journeyman card and 10 years in my trade. the trade unions were represented by the union presidents, business agents and international union representatives. The Construction Industry Employers Association were represented by their director of operations and various owners, superintendents and VPs of operations. The blacks were always represented by community leaders and assorted reverends, never by anyone with knowledge of construction or hiring practices. This disparity let to unrealistic expectations for job opportunities. The blacks envisioned thousands of jobs for a phase that might require 100 tradesmen at most. This unrealistic thought process caused the black activists to think that jobs were being held back to deny them jobs. Nothing was resolved, the program ended and I went back to construction. The dozen or so blacks that were hired to run and administer this AA program immediately found employment in another government funded program. I see the same thing happening today. The voices of the black community, chosen or self appointed in whatever fashion known only to them, are still woefully ignorant of the topic that they espouse. TNC as an expert on economics for instance. His statements carry weight beyond their validity, because he is a "black' spokesman.

    Replies: @Truth

    The Construction Industry Employers Association were represented by their director of operations and various owners, superintendents and VPs of operations. The blacks were always represented by community leaders and assorted reverends, never by anyone with knowledge of construction or hiring practices. This disparity let to unrealistic expectations for job opportunities. The blacks envisioned thousands of jobs for a phase that might require 100 tradesmen at most. This unrealistic thought process caused the black activists to think that jobs were being held back to deny them jobs.

    This is fair, accurate, and unfortunately true in many fields.

  191. @Truth

    If those “jew banks” in Philadelphia didn’t have money the British could happily supply it. The factors for American industrialization were there, and capital would have flowed to it in any event.
     
    And they did!

    http://revealinghistories.org.uk/how-did-money-from-slavery-help-develop-greater-manchester/articles/fuelling-the-industrial-revolution.html

    (but that really doesn't change the original point)

    http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/11/19/slavery-economy-baptist

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @The most deplorable one, @Boomstick, @Boomstick

    The industrial revolution’s success rested on industrialization, not cheap cotton. That’s why it’s called the industrial revolution–mechanization dropped the price and increased the supply of textiles by making the weaving process vastly cheaper and more efficient. The Manchester textile mills would have been revolutionary providers of low-cost textiles with slightly more expensive free market cotton (or wool!) from the US, India, or Egypt.

    Your argument is approximately that of someone arguing today that the value of the iPhone is provided by the bauxite miners that supply the aluminum ore that is used to manufacture the case.

    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    @Boomstick


    Your argument is approximately that of someone arguing today that the value of the iPhone is provided by the bauxite miners that supply the aluminum ore that is used to manufacture the case.
     
    The problem is that things like this do not happen de novo.

    Building cotton mills is an expensive and uncertain undertaking when you are the first to do it. However, if you have lots of capital and a cheap source of cotton then it becomes worthwhile to start experimenting.

    While Truth has overstated the case for his own idiosyncratic reasons, the actual details of the beginnings of the industrial revolution are likely very interesting, if for no other reason than destroying the myth that governments can use policy to direct the economy down sustainable new technologies etc ...

    Replies: @Boomstick

  192. The most deplorable one [AKA "The fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Boomstick
    @Truth

    The industrial revolution's success rested on industrialization, not cheap cotton. That's why it's called the industrial revolution--mechanization dropped the price and increased the supply of textiles by making the weaving process vastly cheaper and more efficient. The Manchester textile mills would have been revolutionary providers of low-cost textiles with slightly more expensive free market cotton (or wool!) from the US, India, or Egypt.

    Your argument is approximately that of someone arguing today that the value of the iPhone is provided by the bauxite miners that supply the aluminum ore that is used to manufacture the case.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one

    Your argument is approximately that of someone arguing today that the value of the iPhone is provided by the bauxite miners that supply the aluminum ore that is used to manufacture the case.

    The problem is that things like this do not happen de novo.

    Building cotton mills is an expensive and uncertain undertaking when you are the first to do it. However, if you have lots of capital and a cheap source of cotton then it becomes worthwhile to start experimenting.

    While Truth has overstated the case for his own idiosyncratic reasons, the actual details of the beginnings of the industrial revolution are likely very interesting, if for no other reason than destroying the myth that governments can use policy to direct the economy down sustainable new technologies etc …

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    @The most deplorable one

    It's called the industrial revolution, not the cotton farming revolution. The central point was driving the cost of manufacturing to zero relative to the home weaving system.

    The textile industry was well underway decades before the cotton gin was invented. Arkwright in the Midlands set up a water-powered mill in 1771 and later engaged in an early version of intellectual property sale for his system (since his patents were difficult to enforce) and set up dozens of factories. He was initially financed by some local Unitarian hosiery makers.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one

  193. @Truth

    If those “jew banks” in Philadelphia didn’t have money the British could happily supply it. The factors for American industrialization were there, and capital would have flowed to it in any event.
     
    And they did!

    http://revealinghistories.org.uk/how-did-money-from-slavery-help-develop-greater-manchester/articles/fuelling-the-industrial-revolution.html

    (but that really doesn't change the original point)

    http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/11/19/slavery-economy-baptist

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @The most deplorable one, @Boomstick, @Boomstick

    Let’s conduct a thought experiment. Eli Whitney invents the cotton gin, but five years before that slavery had been abolished. What would have happened?

    Cotton would still have been grown in the US, but the labor would have been supplied on the free market rather than on slave terms. The cotton grown would probably have been a bit more expensive, but not hugely so. The market premium on slaves was in the 5-10% range, indicating that slave owners were gaining something from forced labor, but that the same crops could have been grown by free men for approximately the same price. Certainly rising cotton prices before the war did nothing to stop the industrial revolution. The Manchester mills would have still existed, because their revolutionary impact was in driving the cost of weaving to near zero compared to the prior practice of home weaving. And this ignores the likely cotton farm productivity increases that would have resulted from market forces operating on agriculture in the south. The ugly truth is that all agricultural labor was not far above subsistence level, and so the price differential between free and slave labor was small.

    In economics you compare a choice to the replacement costs for that choice. Without slavery the alternative isn’t the lack of a textile industry, or the absence of cotton cultivation, or the lack of US exports of cotton. It’s slightly more expensive cotton. Maybe. But the economic activity would have still been there. Those black bodies were a minor factor in the end.

    And the south’s wealth was destroyed by the war, anyway. Southern planters didn’t finance the northern steel mills of the late 19th century.

  194. Let’s conduct a thought experiment. Eli Whitney invents the cotton gin, but five years before that slavery had been abolished. What would have happened?

    Lots of stuff has been invented since 1975, but the manufacturing base still moved to China.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    @Truth

    If what you posit is true, one would expect to see cotton cultivation in the US to stop with the end of slavery in 1865. Did it?

    (Spoiler: no.)

    Replies: @Truth

  195. @The most deplorable one
    @Boomstick


    Your argument is approximately that of someone arguing today that the value of the iPhone is provided by the bauxite miners that supply the aluminum ore that is used to manufacture the case.
     
    The problem is that things like this do not happen de novo.

    Building cotton mills is an expensive and uncertain undertaking when you are the first to do it. However, if you have lots of capital and a cheap source of cotton then it becomes worthwhile to start experimenting.

    While Truth has overstated the case for his own idiosyncratic reasons, the actual details of the beginnings of the industrial revolution are likely very interesting, if for no other reason than destroying the myth that governments can use policy to direct the economy down sustainable new technologies etc ...

    Replies: @Boomstick

    It’s called the industrial revolution, not the cotton farming revolution. The central point was driving the cost of manufacturing to zero relative to the home weaving system.

    The textile industry was well underway decades before the cotton gin was invented. Arkwright in the Midlands set up a water-powered mill in 1771 and later engaged in an early version of intellectual property sale for his system (since his patents were difficult to enforce) and set up dozens of factories. He was initially financed by some local Unitarian hosiery makers.

    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    @Boomstick


    It’s called the industrial revolution, not the cotton farming revolution. The central point was driving the cost of manufacturing to zero relative to the home weaving system.
     
    I have to wonder at your reading comprehension because I was not referring to cotton farming.

    The textile industry was well underway decades before the cotton gin was invented.
     
    Aren't you confusing cotton gins with cotton mills (which I was referring to). Just to refresh your memory, a cotton gin reduces the cost of producing the raw materials (cotton.)

    Now, your reference to Arkwright was important because it bears on what I was referring to and it suggests to me that, contra Eric Williams the financing for Watt's steam engine would have been available from alternative sources because the Industrial Revolution was already underway.

    Of course, I still think that Williams likely has some interesting things to say about the British claims that they opposed Slavery for humanitarian reasons. It seems that they were for slavery before they were against it.

    Replies: @Boomstick

  196. Seems to me the essence of Coates’–and the like–argument is pretty much debunked with one word: Canada.

    Most leftist nonsense–regardless of how it violates tradition, logic or common sense–is only debunked (though the debunking never accepted by leftists), by putting it into practice and seeing the debacle unfold–ex. Soviet Union; post-war America (integration, “root causes” crime policy, educational romanticism, houses for all romanticism, “disparate impact”, “many kinds of families” and welfare for unwed mothers).

    But for this “America built-on-the-backs-of-blacks” stuff, we actually have something close to a controlled experiment. We have two other large continental nations conquered and settled by Anglo-Saxons–Canada and Australia. The US had slavery and has a lot of blacks, they do not. But US also had a clearly better setup than either. For instance relative to Canada–same trade access to Europe, similar good mineral resources, superior coal and petroleum resources, more\better arable land, better, more temperate climate, and i’d argue better governing institutions\constitution. And indeed the US has done better, and is the more prosperous nation. But it’s not done *that* much better on a per capita basis. In fact, given both it’s natural advantages and the advantage of sheer scale–*the* place to be for innovation with the largest population base and largest internal market–i’d argue the US seems to have underperformed relative to these continental sized peers. (Maybe slavery and lots of blacks are not a boost but a boat anchor?) But in any case, it’ s absolutely clear that slavery\blacks are not the secret sauce to wealth. Rather these three examples indicate that a country with resources settled by Anglo-Saxons seems to be sufficient for great prosperity.

    This is not to say slavery is irrelevant. Obviously the triangle trade was an important piece of the early mercantile development of Europe. Later cotton from the American South clearly gave a boost to textile industry. It’s hard to figure exactly where industrial development would be without these things. Just like WWII and the Cold War were boosts to aviation, jets, later computers, electronics. Where exactly would those industries be without those conflicts? Hard to nail down exactly.

    One final irony is Coates and his fellow travelers are essentially making the argument of the Southern secessionists: King Cotton! I.e. the world economy depends on the American South growing cotton with slave labor.

    History did the experiment and … this turned out to be false! The war did induce a recession, but then it turned out that the world economy did not depend on either the South or on slavery. Cotton could be grown a lot of places–including it’s long home in India; including introduction in Egypt–and without slavery.

    The evidence pretty much points to one conclusion: the key ingredient that fueled modern prosperity was the IQ, conscientiousness and genius of European peoples–i.e. whites–within the powerful paradigms they’d developed of modern science and national and later capitalist competition. Blacks could have stayed in Africa and the temperate Americas would still be relatively rich and prosperous–though exactly where we’d be now is speculative alternative history–and also a heck of a lot more pleasant.

    “Canada” — who knew those folks in the Great White North could prove so enlightening?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @AnotherDad

    Canada has a small black population, but a large portion of crime, especially violent crime is committed by blacks. There are editorials and op-eds that refer to this as the problem Canada doesn't want to discuss. Canada is also a huge land mass with a small population, about the same number of inhabitants as the state of California. They accomplished a lot with a small population base, but many of their industries are US based.

    Replies: @Jefferson

  197. @Truth

    Let’s conduct a thought experiment. Eli Whitney invents the cotton gin, but five years before that slavery had been abolished. What would have happened?
     
    Lots of stuff has been invented since 1975, but the manufacturing base still moved to China.

    Replies: @Boomstick

    If what you posit is true, one would expect to see cotton cultivation in the US to stop with the end of slavery in 1865. Did it?

    (Spoiler: no.)

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Boomstick

    You totally missed the point, and I didn't think it was complex;
    oh well, we'll pick it up again later.

  198. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Boomstick
    @The most deplorable one

    It's called the industrial revolution, not the cotton farming revolution. The central point was driving the cost of manufacturing to zero relative to the home weaving system.

    The textile industry was well underway decades before the cotton gin was invented. Arkwright in the Midlands set up a water-powered mill in 1771 and later engaged in an early version of intellectual property sale for his system (since his patents were difficult to enforce) and set up dozens of factories. He was initially financed by some local Unitarian hosiery makers.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one

    It’s called the industrial revolution, not the cotton farming revolution. The central point was driving the cost of manufacturing to zero relative to the home weaving system.

    I have to wonder at your reading comprehension because I was not referring to cotton farming.

    The textile industry was well underway decades before the cotton gin was invented.

    Aren’t you confusing cotton gins with cotton mills (which I was referring to). Just to refresh your memory, a cotton gin reduces the cost of producing the raw materials (cotton.)

    Now, your reference to Arkwright was important because it bears on what I was referring to and it suggests to me that, contra Eric Williams the financing for Watt’s steam engine would have been available from alternative sources because the Industrial Revolution was already underway.

    Of course, I still think that Williams likely has some interesting things to say about the British claims that they opposed Slavery for humanitarian reasons. It seems that they were for slavery before they were against it.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    @The most deplorable one

    Truth is advancing the argument that the industrial revolution and American wealth is based on the profits of cotton growing and slavery. It isn't, to any appreciable extent. Still less so for American railroads or steel of the later 19th century.

    The "King Cotton" era and the profits from it depended on the invention of the cotton gin. But well before that industrialization was underway in the midlands; Arkwright created or helped set up dozens of textile mills decades before the cotton gin was invented and the demand for American cotton became large. The original funding for Arkwright came from some local hosiery makers, not slave traders or plantation owners. The capital resulting from slavery wasn't a necessary or actual requirement for the creation and growth of the textile industry.

    Of the factors that went into textile production, industrialization had a far higher impact than the price of cotton; more of the value of textiles came from manufacturing than raw materials, and the wealth created was the result of productivity increases of the factory system, not lower raw material costs or the labor that went into growing cotton.

    The ability of slave owners to expropriate the labor of slaves had only a small effect on the price of cotton supplied to the textile factories. A free labor system in the south would have resulted in nearly the same price, and everything would have proceeded in pretty much the same way after the invention of the cotton gin if slavery had been abolished five years prior. We know this because, among other things, cotton continued to be produced in the US after the end of slavery, often by smaller landholders.

    Truth (and TNC) disputes this by mentioning a few cases of slave traders or "Jew bankers" funding textile factories. But this assumes there was no other possible source for the capital. In the absence of Simon Legree putting up the capital, Fitzwilliam Darcy could have plunked down some of his ten thousand pounds a year income from his Pemberley estate. Or additional nonconforming hosiery makers. Or ship captains in the China or far east trade.

    Slavery is a sideshow in current American wealth from an economic standpoint. TNC is spreading nonsense with his assertion that current American wealth is resting on black bones. It's delusional.

  199. @Boomstick
    @Truth

    If what you posit is true, one would expect to see cotton cultivation in the US to stop with the end of slavery in 1865. Did it?

    (Spoiler: no.)

    Replies: @Truth

    You totally missed the point, and I didn’t think it was complex;
    oh well, we’ll pick it up again later.

  200. @AP
    @syonredux


    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that’s 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That’s three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O’Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

     

    I think one needs to take into account the South's social structure, which as you have correctly confirmed was indeed similar to that of Latin America and pre-Communist Eastern Europe. The South seems to have consisted of a class of highly educated, refined people and a lot of illiterate or barely literate "peasants," black and white. The South's population may not have been vastly smaller than the North's, but a lot of those Southerners were slaves or uneducated poor whites. The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South - but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries; likewise Twain and perhaps Faulkner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America's greatest playwright.

    I don't know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South's invention of jazz music.

    Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.
     
    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author. Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.

    Here is a list of greatest American writers. The list isn't gospel (it's by something called askme.com) but I suppose it roughly represents consensus:

    http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/73d_top_10_list.html

    Southerners come in at #2 (Poe), #3 (Twain, okay quasi-Southerner), #4 (Faulkner), and #9 (Williams).

    Replies: @syonredux, @Reg Cæsar, @Jefferson

    The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South – but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries;

    Unless you’re French, I don’t think that anyone would argue that Poe was greater than Melville or Hawthorne or Whitman or Emily Dickinson

    likewise Twain

    As I noted upthread, Twain is more of a quasi-Southerner, Missouri being a border state with both Mid-Western and Southern characteristics.And he spent his entire active career outside of the South: California, Connecticut, Europe, etc

    And I’m not sure that critics would agree that he was greater than Henry James….

    and perhaps Faulkner.

    In contrast to Twain, Faulkner was an echt Southerner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America’s greatest playwright.

    Intentionally.A Streetcar Named Desire (Williams’ first masterpiece) appeared in 1945, which marks my cut-off date.

    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author.

    The consensus within the Anglosphere is that he is one of the greatest American authors.In terms of American novelists (defining the term rather loosely as an extended prose narrative) who were active prior to 1945, the greats are usually regarded as being: Hawthorne, Melville, Henry James, Twain, and William Faulkner.Fitzgerald typically hovers just at the border.

    Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.

    In this instance, their judgment largely coincides with the Anglosphere’s verdict.Of the interwar big three, Faulkner is held to be first, with Hemingway and Fitzgerald tied for second place.

    I don’t know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South’s invention of jazz music.

    RE: Jazz,

    It just doesn’t seem to be all that impressive when compared to the European symphonic tradition (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc

    • Replies: @James Kabala
    @syonredux

    Have you ever read William Gilmore Simms? He is often talked up in paleocon circles as an unjustly forgotten great antebellum Southern writer, but I have yet to get around to reading him. I suspect his merit would be about the same as Longfellow or Whittier or other antebellum Yankees who are only slightly more remembered.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @SPMoore8
    @syonredux

    I know this is all about individual taste, but:

    #1 - I would rank Poe very high for intellect and intellectual stimulation.

    #2 - I think Twain is, altogether, our best American author, along with (nobody mentioned) Washington Irving.

    #3 - I don't get this fascination with Southern American literature. I just don't.

    #4 - Frankly I think William James was a much better writer than his brother. Okay, so he didn't write novels. Henry James is good for building your vocabulary.

    #5 - Stipulating "novels" as an index of literary greatness sounds artificial to me, and doesn't really embrace the American idiom in prose. American authors I like who I think have a good American character include Dreiser (catches the idiom well), Sinclair Lewis (ditto), Upton Sinclair (ditto), Dos Passos (ditto). I much prefer any of them to the over-done trio of Ernest, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner. I like Steinbeck's heart but he over-writes. Bierce is overwrought in the 19th Century style but great humor and cynicism, and his CW stories are unforgettable.

    -- Looking over my list, I guess the South doesn't really have much going for it.

    Replies: @syonredux

  201. @The most deplorable one
    @Boomstick


    It’s called the industrial revolution, not the cotton farming revolution. The central point was driving the cost of manufacturing to zero relative to the home weaving system.
     
    I have to wonder at your reading comprehension because I was not referring to cotton farming.

    The textile industry was well underway decades before the cotton gin was invented.
     
    Aren't you confusing cotton gins with cotton mills (which I was referring to). Just to refresh your memory, a cotton gin reduces the cost of producing the raw materials (cotton.)

    Now, your reference to Arkwright was important because it bears on what I was referring to and it suggests to me that, contra Eric Williams the financing for Watt's steam engine would have been available from alternative sources because the Industrial Revolution was already underway.

    Of course, I still think that Williams likely has some interesting things to say about the British claims that they opposed Slavery for humanitarian reasons. It seems that they were for slavery before they were against it.

    Replies: @Boomstick

    Truth is advancing the argument that the industrial revolution and American wealth is based on the profits of cotton growing and slavery. It isn’t, to any appreciable extent. Still less so for American railroads or steel of the later 19th century.

    The “King Cotton” era and the profits from it depended on the invention of the cotton gin. But well before that industrialization was underway in the midlands; Arkwright created or helped set up dozens of textile mills decades before the cotton gin was invented and the demand for American cotton became large. The original funding for Arkwright came from some local hosiery makers, not slave traders or plantation owners. The capital resulting from slavery wasn’t a necessary or actual requirement for the creation and growth of the textile industry.

    Of the factors that went into textile production, industrialization had a far higher impact than the price of cotton; more of the value of textiles came from manufacturing than raw materials, and the wealth created was the result of productivity increases of the factory system, not lower raw material costs or the labor that went into growing cotton.

    The ability of slave owners to expropriate the labor of slaves had only a small effect on the price of cotton supplied to the textile factories. A free labor system in the south would have resulted in nearly the same price, and everything would have proceeded in pretty much the same way after the invention of the cotton gin if slavery had been abolished five years prior. We know this because, among other things, cotton continued to be produced in the US after the end of slavery, often by smaller landholders.

    Truth (and TNC) disputes this by mentioning a few cases of slave traders or “Jew bankers” funding textile factories. But this assumes there was no other possible source for the capital. In the absence of Simon Legree putting up the capital, Fitzwilliam Darcy could have plunked down some of his ten thousand pounds a year income from his Pemberley estate. Or additional nonconforming hosiery makers. Or ship captains in the China or far east trade.

    Slavery is a sideshow in current American wealth from an economic standpoint. TNC is spreading nonsense with his assertion that current American wealth is resting on black bones. It’s delusional.

  202. @syonredux
    @AP


    The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South – but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries;
     
    Unless you're French, I don't think that anyone would argue that Poe was greater than Melville or Hawthorne or Whitman or Emily Dickinson

    likewise Twain
     
    As I noted upthread, Twain is more of a quasi-Southerner, Missouri being a border state with both Mid-Western and Southern characteristics.And he spent his entire active career outside of the South: California, Connecticut, Europe, etc

    And I'm not sure that critics would agree that he was greater than Henry James....

    and perhaps Faulkner.
     
    In contrast to Twain, Faulkner was an echt Southerner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America’s greatest playwright.
     
    Intentionally.A Streetcar Named Desire (Williams' first masterpiece) appeared in 1945, which marks my cut-off date.

    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author.
     
    The consensus within the Anglosphere is that he is one of the greatest American authors.In terms of American novelists (defining the term rather loosely as an extended prose narrative) who were active prior to 1945, the greats are usually regarded as being: Hawthorne, Melville, Henry James, Twain, and William Faulkner.Fitzgerald typically hovers just at the border.

    Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.
     
    In this instance, their judgment largely coincides with the Anglosphere's verdict.Of the interwar big three, Faulkner is held to be first, with Hemingway and Fitzgerald tied for second place.

    I don’t know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South’s invention of jazz music.
     
    RE: Jazz,

    It just doesn't seem to be all that impressive when compared to the European symphonic tradition (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc

    Replies: @James Kabala, @SPMoore8

    Have you ever read William Gilmore Simms? He is often talked up in paleocon circles as an unjustly forgotten great antebellum Southern writer, but I have yet to get around to reading him. I suspect his merit would be about the same as Longfellow or Whittier or other antebellum Yankees who are only slightly more remembered.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @James Kabala


    Have you ever read William Gilmore Simms?
     
    I read The Yemassee in graduate school.It was so-so.Can't really recommend it to someone who isn't a specialist in 19th century American Lit.

    He is often talked up in paleocon circles as an unjustly forgotten great antebellum Southern writer, but I have yet to get around to reading him. I suspect his merit would be about the same as Longfellow or Whittier or other antebellum Yankees who are only slightly more remembered.
     
    Well, it is easy to feel sorry for Simms. James Fenimore Cooper was called the American Scott, but Simms had to bear the burden of being called the Southern Cooper, which made him doubly provincial.

    Leaving sentiment to one side, he was very mediocre.
  203. @syonredux
    @AP


    The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South – but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries;
     
    Unless you're French, I don't think that anyone would argue that Poe was greater than Melville or Hawthorne or Whitman or Emily Dickinson

    likewise Twain
     
    As I noted upthread, Twain is more of a quasi-Southerner, Missouri being a border state with both Mid-Western and Southern characteristics.And he spent his entire active career outside of the South: California, Connecticut, Europe, etc

    And I'm not sure that critics would agree that he was greater than Henry James....

    and perhaps Faulkner.
     
    In contrast to Twain, Faulkner was an echt Southerner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America’s greatest playwright.
     
    Intentionally.A Streetcar Named Desire (Williams' first masterpiece) appeared in 1945, which marks my cut-off date.

    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author.
     
    The consensus within the Anglosphere is that he is one of the greatest American authors.In terms of American novelists (defining the term rather loosely as an extended prose narrative) who were active prior to 1945, the greats are usually regarded as being: Hawthorne, Melville, Henry James, Twain, and William Faulkner.Fitzgerald typically hovers just at the border.

    Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.
     
    In this instance, their judgment largely coincides with the Anglosphere's verdict.Of the interwar big three, Faulkner is held to be first, with Hemingway and Fitzgerald tied for second place.

    I don’t know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South’s invention of jazz music.
     
    RE: Jazz,

    It just doesn't seem to be all that impressive when compared to the European symphonic tradition (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc

    Replies: @James Kabala, @SPMoore8

    I know this is all about individual taste, but:

    #1 – I would rank Poe very high for intellect and intellectual stimulation.

    #2 – I think Twain is, altogether, our best American author, along with (nobody mentioned) Washington Irving.

    #3 – I don’t get this fascination with Southern American literature. I just don’t.

    #4 – Frankly I think William James was a much better writer than his brother. Okay, so he didn’t write novels. Henry James is good for building your vocabulary.

    #5 – Stipulating “novels” as an index of literary greatness sounds artificial to me, and doesn’t really embrace the American idiom in prose. American authors I like who I think have a good American character include Dreiser (catches the idiom well), Sinclair Lewis (ditto), Upton Sinclair (ditto), Dos Passos (ditto). I much prefer any of them to the over-done trio of Ernest, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner. I like Steinbeck’s heart but he over-writes. Bierce is overwrought in the 19th Century style but great humor and cynicism, and his CW stories are unforgettable.

    — Looking over my list, I guess the South doesn’t really have much going for it.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @SPMoore8


    #1 – I would rank Poe very high for intellect and intellectual stimulation.
     
    He's clearly one of the most influential American authors.He pretty much invented the detective story, and he was a major influence on the development of the short story in English*

    #2 – I think Twain is, altogether, our best American author,
     
    He's clearly one of the best, but it would take a bold spirit to proclaim him greater than Melville, Henry James, Faulkner, and Hawthorne

    along with (nobody mentioned) Washington Irving.
     
    Very charming but rather lightweight in terms of content. Still, he did write two short stories ("Sleepy Hollow" and "Rip van Winkle") that are known all over the world.

    #3 – I don’t get this fascination with Southern American literature. I just don’t.
     
    Well, since I've been clobbering them, allow me a few kind words.They do have Faulkner, and he is clearly one of the very greatest American writers. And the Nashville Agrarians (Allen Tate, Robert Penn Warren, John Crowe Ransom, etc) are very interesting and well-worth reading

    #4 – Frankly I think William James was a much better writer than his brother. Okay, so he didn’t write novels. Henry James is good for building your vocabulary.
     
    Personally, I tend to concur.Of course, I am one of those benighted souls who think that early James (The Bostonians, Portrait of a Lady, etc) is better than late James (Wings of the Dove, The Ambassadors, etc)

    #5 – Stipulating “novels” as an index of literary greatness sounds artificial to me, and doesn’t really embrace the American idiom in prose.
     
    I was just trying to compare like to like.Comparing novelists to poets, say, can be a tricky business.

    American authors I like who I think have a good American character include Dreiser (catches the idiom well),
     
    He has his devotees.But he was a very clumsy writer.Also, a bit too German for my tastes.

    Sinclair Lewis (ditto),
     
    He's OK. I do love using him as a test case for the ineptitude of the Nobel Committee.They had the chance to make either Twain or Henry James the first American Nobel Laureate, and they went with Sinclair Lewis....

    Upton Sinclair (ditto),
     
    I find him unreadable.

    Dos Passos (ditto).
     
    Very tough slog.I had to read The 42nd Parallel in graduate school.Interesting to discuss (the "camera eye," etc), but I find him rather dull overall

    I much prefer any of them to the over-done trio of Ernest, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner.
     
    I go with the majority here; I think that they (along with Cather and Wharton) are the greatest American prose writers of the interwar period

    I like Steinbeck’s heart but he over-writes.
     
    I think that he's OK

    Bierce is overwrought in the 19th Century style but great humor and cynicism, and his CW stories are unforgettable.
     
    One of my personal favorites.Biting humor.After Poe, the best American horror writer of the 19th century.




    *One place where the USA clearly takes aesthetic precedence over the British involves the short story.The key figures in the development of the form are all American: Washington Irving, Hawthorne, Poe, Melville, etc. Barring Sir Walter Scott's "Two Drovers," you really don't see significant British work in the form until the late 19th century (Hardy, Kipling, etc)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @celt darnell

  204. @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    I can understand the notion of reparations - I mean these are the richest, most successful black people in the history of the world.

    I do think, though, that it would be gauche to force them to pay for being delivered from benighted Africa. Just a hearty thank you should suffice.

    Replies: @Pete, @Anonymous

    Yes indeed. GDP of North America is twenty times that of Africa. You’re welcome TNC.

  205. @SPMoore8
    @syonredux

    I know this is all about individual taste, but:

    #1 - I would rank Poe very high for intellect and intellectual stimulation.

    #2 - I think Twain is, altogether, our best American author, along with (nobody mentioned) Washington Irving.

    #3 - I don't get this fascination with Southern American literature. I just don't.

    #4 - Frankly I think William James was a much better writer than his brother. Okay, so he didn't write novels. Henry James is good for building your vocabulary.

    #5 - Stipulating "novels" as an index of literary greatness sounds artificial to me, and doesn't really embrace the American idiom in prose. American authors I like who I think have a good American character include Dreiser (catches the idiom well), Sinclair Lewis (ditto), Upton Sinclair (ditto), Dos Passos (ditto). I much prefer any of them to the over-done trio of Ernest, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner. I like Steinbeck's heart but he over-writes. Bierce is overwrought in the 19th Century style but great humor and cynicism, and his CW stories are unforgettable.

    -- Looking over my list, I guess the South doesn't really have much going for it.

    Replies: @syonredux

    #1 – I would rank Poe very high for intellect and intellectual stimulation.

    He’s clearly one of the most influential American authors.He pretty much invented the detective story, and he was a major influence on the development of the short story in English*

    #2 – I think Twain is, altogether, our best American author,

    He’s clearly one of the best, but it would take a bold spirit to proclaim him greater than Melville, Henry James, Faulkner, and Hawthorne

    along with (nobody mentioned) Washington Irving.

    Very charming but rather lightweight in terms of content. Still, he did write two short stories (“Sleepy Hollow” and “Rip van Winkle”) that are known all over the world.

    #3 – I don’t get this fascination with Southern American literature. I just don’t.

    Well, since I’ve been clobbering them, allow me a few kind words.They do have Faulkner, and he is clearly one of the very greatest American writers. And the Nashville Agrarians (Allen Tate, Robert Penn Warren, John Crowe Ransom, etc) are very interesting and well-worth reading

    #4 – Frankly I think William James was a much better writer than his brother. Okay, so he didn’t write novels. Henry James is good for building your vocabulary.

    Personally, I tend to concur.Of course, I am one of those benighted souls who think that early James (The Bostonians, Portrait of a Lady, etc) is better than late James (Wings of the Dove, The Ambassadors, etc)

    #5 – Stipulating “novels” as an index of literary greatness sounds artificial to me, and doesn’t really embrace the American idiom in prose.

    I was just trying to compare like to like.Comparing novelists to poets, say, can be a tricky business.

    American authors I like who I think have a good American character include Dreiser (catches the idiom well),

    He has his devotees.But he was a very clumsy writer.Also, a bit too German for my tastes.

    Sinclair Lewis (ditto),

    He’s OK. I do love using him as a test case for the ineptitude of the Nobel Committee.They had the chance to make either Twain or Henry James the first American Nobel Laureate, and they went with Sinclair Lewis….

    Upton Sinclair (ditto),

    I find him unreadable.

    Dos Passos (ditto).

    Very tough slog.I had to read The 42nd Parallel in graduate school.Interesting to discuss (the “camera eye,” etc), but I find him rather dull overall

    I much prefer any of them to the over-done trio of Ernest, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner.

    I go with the majority here; I think that they (along with Cather and Wharton) are the greatest American prose writers of the interwar period

    I like Steinbeck’s heart but he over-writes.

    I think that he’s OK

    Bierce is overwrought in the 19th Century style but great humor and cynicism, and his CW stories are unforgettable.

    One of my personal favorites.Biting humor.After Poe, the best American horror writer of the 19th century.

    *One place where the USA clearly takes aesthetic precedence over the British involves the short story.The key figures in the development of the form are all American: Washington Irving, Hawthorne, Poe, Melville, etc. Barring Sir Walter Scott’s “Two Drovers,” you really don’t see significant British work in the form until the late 19th century (Hardy, Kipling, etc)

    • Agree: SPMoore8
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @syonredux

    Somebody would have done it if Hemingway hadn't, but he did have an immense influence on prose style by getting writers to work on shortening their books. My favorite, Waugh, combines high metropolitan fluency with Hemingway-derived terseness, which makes his books funnier: he doesn't feel as much need to explain his jokes as previous writers would have.

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @celt darnell
    @syonredux

    Actually ETA Hoffmann created the detective story long before Poe.

    Poe's are the first detective stories in English.

    Re: One place where the USA clearly takes aesthetic precedence over the British involves the short story.The key figures in the development of the form are all American.

    Well, you Americans can keep telling yourselves that, but most literate people would acknowledge Dickens (who was contemporaneous with Irving, Hawthorne and Poe and predates Melville).

    Poe's stories, meantime, were mostly ripped straight out of Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

  206. @James Kabala
    @syonredux

    Have you ever read William Gilmore Simms? He is often talked up in paleocon circles as an unjustly forgotten great antebellum Southern writer, but I have yet to get around to reading him. I suspect his merit would be about the same as Longfellow or Whittier or other antebellum Yankees who are only slightly more remembered.

    Replies: @syonredux

    Have you ever read William Gilmore Simms?

    I read The Yemassee in graduate school.It was so-so.Can’t really recommend it to someone who isn’t a specialist in 19th century American Lit.

    He is often talked up in paleocon circles as an unjustly forgotten great antebellum Southern writer, but I have yet to get around to reading him. I suspect his merit would be about the same as Longfellow or Whittier or other antebellum Yankees who are only slightly more remembered.

    Well, it is easy to feel sorry for Simms. James Fenimore Cooper was called the American Scott, but Simms had to bear the burden of being called the Southern Cooper, which made him doubly provincial.

    Leaving sentiment to one side, he was very mediocre.

  207. @AnotherDad
    Seems to me the essence of Coates'--and the like--argument is pretty much debunked with one word: Canada.

    Most leftist nonsense--regardless of how it violates tradition, logic or common sense--is only debunked (though the debunking never accepted by leftists), by putting it into practice and seeing the debacle unfold--ex. Soviet Union; post-war America (integration, "root causes" crime policy, educational romanticism, houses for all romanticism, "disparate impact", "many kinds of families" and welfare for unwed mothers).

    But for this "America built-on-the-backs-of-blacks" stuff, we actually have something close to a controlled experiment. We have two other large continental nations conquered and settled by Anglo-Saxons--Canada and Australia. The US had slavery and has a lot of blacks, they do not. But US also had a clearly better setup than either. For instance relative to Canada--same trade access to Europe, similar good mineral resources, superior coal and petroleum resources, more\better arable land, better, more temperate climate, and i'd argue better governing institutions\constitution. And indeed the US has done better, and is the more prosperous nation. But it's not done *that* much better on a per capita basis. In fact, given both it's natural advantages and the advantage of sheer scale--*the* place to be for innovation with the largest population base and largest internal market--i'd argue the US seems to have underperformed relative to these continental sized peers. (Maybe slavery and lots of blacks are not a boost but a boat anchor?) But in any case, it' s absolutely clear that slavery\blacks are not the secret sauce to wealth. Rather these three examples indicate that a country with resources settled by Anglo-Saxons seems to be sufficient for great prosperity.

    This is not to say slavery is irrelevant. Obviously the triangle trade was an important piece of the early mercantile development of Europe. Later cotton from the American South clearly gave a boost to textile industry. It's hard to figure exactly where industrial development would be without these things. Just like WWII and the Cold War were boosts to aviation, jets, later computers, electronics. Where exactly would those industries be without those conflicts? Hard to nail down exactly.

    One final irony is Coates and his fellow travelers are essentially making the argument of the Southern secessionists: King Cotton! I.e. the world economy depends on the American South growing cotton with slave labor.

    History did the experiment and ... this turned out to be false! The war did induce a recession, but then it turned out that the world economy did not depend on either the South or on slavery. Cotton could be grown a lot of places--including it's long home in India; including introduction in Egypt--and without slavery.

    The evidence pretty much points to one conclusion: the key ingredient that fueled modern prosperity was the IQ, conscientiousness and genius of European peoples--i.e. whites--within the powerful paradigms they'd developed of modern science and national and later capitalist competition. Blacks could have stayed in Africa and the temperate Americas would still be relatively rich and prosperous--though exactly where we'd be now is speculative alternative history--and also a heck of a lot more pleasant.

    "Canada" -- who knew those folks in the Great White North could prove so enlightening?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Canada has a small black population, but a large portion of crime, especially violent crime is committed by blacks. There are editorials and op-eds that refer to this as the problem Canada doesn’t want to discuss. Canada is also a huge land mass with a small population, about the same number of inhabitants as the state of California. They accomplished a lot with a small population base, but many of their industries are US based.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Buffalo Joe

    "Canada has a small black population, but a large portion of crime, especially violent crime is committed by blacks."

    Where is Canada's version of Ferguson and East St. Louis?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

  208. @syonredux
    @SPMoore8


    #1 – I would rank Poe very high for intellect and intellectual stimulation.
     
    He's clearly one of the most influential American authors.He pretty much invented the detective story, and he was a major influence on the development of the short story in English*

    #2 – I think Twain is, altogether, our best American author,
     
    He's clearly one of the best, but it would take a bold spirit to proclaim him greater than Melville, Henry James, Faulkner, and Hawthorne

    along with (nobody mentioned) Washington Irving.
     
    Very charming but rather lightweight in terms of content. Still, he did write two short stories ("Sleepy Hollow" and "Rip van Winkle") that are known all over the world.

    #3 – I don’t get this fascination with Southern American literature. I just don’t.
     
    Well, since I've been clobbering them, allow me a few kind words.They do have Faulkner, and he is clearly one of the very greatest American writers. And the Nashville Agrarians (Allen Tate, Robert Penn Warren, John Crowe Ransom, etc) are very interesting and well-worth reading

    #4 – Frankly I think William James was a much better writer than his brother. Okay, so he didn’t write novels. Henry James is good for building your vocabulary.
     
    Personally, I tend to concur.Of course, I am one of those benighted souls who think that early James (The Bostonians, Portrait of a Lady, etc) is better than late James (Wings of the Dove, The Ambassadors, etc)

    #5 – Stipulating “novels” as an index of literary greatness sounds artificial to me, and doesn’t really embrace the American idiom in prose.
     
    I was just trying to compare like to like.Comparing novelists to poets, say, can be a tricky business.

    American authors I like who I think have a good American character include Dreiser (catches the idiom well),
     
    He has his devotees.But he was a very clumsy writer.Also, a bit too German for my tastes.

    Sinclair Lewis (ditto),
     
    He's OK. I do love using him as a test case for the ineptitude of the Nobel Committee.They had the chance to make either Twain or Henry James the first American Nobel Laureate, and they went with Sinclair Lewis....

    Upton Sinclair (ditto),
     
    I find him unreadable.

    Dos Passos (ditto).
     
    Very tough slog.I had to read The 42nd Parallel in graduate school.Interesting to discuss (the "camera eye," etc), but I find him rather dull overall

    I much prefer any of them to the over-done trio of Ernest, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner.
     
    I go with the majority here; I think that they (along with Cather and Wharton) are the greatest American prose writers of the interwar period

    I like Steinbeck’s heart but he over-writes.
     
    I think that he's OK

    Bierce is overwrought in the 19th Century style but great humor and cynicism, and his CW stories are unforgettable.
     
    One of my personal favorites.Biting humor.After Poe, the best American horror writer of the 19th century.




    *One place where the USA clearly takes aesthetic precedence over the British involves the short story.The key figures in the development of the form are all American: Washington Irving, Hawthorne, Poe, Melville, etc. Barring Sir Walter Scott's "Two Drovers," you really don't see significant British work in the form until the late 19th century (Hardy, Kipling, etc)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @celt darnell

    Somebody would have done it if Hemingway hadn’t, but he did have an immense influence on prose style by getting writers to work on shortening their books. My favorite, Waugh, combines high metropolitan fluency with Hemingway-derived terseness, which makes his books funnier: he doesn’t feel as much need to explain his jokes as previous writers would have.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Steve Sailer

    RE: Hemingway,

    Although not the greatest Anglo writer of the period, I don't think that it's possible to overestimate Hemingway's influence in the '20s and the '30s. You can feel his mark in authors as disparate as Raymond Chandler and William Faulkner.

  209. @AP
    @syonredux


    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that’s 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That’s three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O’Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

     

    I think one needs to take into account the South's social structure, which as you have correctly confirmed was indeed similar to that of Latin America and pre-Communist Eastern Europe. The South seems to have consisted of a class of highly educated, refined people and a lot of illiterate or barely literate "peasants," black and white. The South's population may not have been vastly smaller than the North's, but a lot of those Southerners were slaves or uneducated poor whites. The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South - but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries; likewise Twain and perhaps Faulkner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America's greatest playwright.

    I don't know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South's invention of jazz music.

    Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.
     
    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author. Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.

    Here is a list of greatest American writers. The list isn't gospel (it's by something called askme.com) but I suppose it roughly represents consensus:

    http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/73d_top_10_list.html

    Southerners come in at #2 (Poe), #3 (Twain, okay quasi-Southerner), #4 (Faulkner), and #9 (Williams).

    Replies: @syonredux, @Reg Cæsar, @Jefferson

    I don’t know if particular jazz composers are in the list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South’s invention of jazz music.

    The 32-bar song forms and the Broadway musical don’t qualify as “something”? Consider that at a typical jazz concert, much of the material was written and published in New York City. Often on just two streets, W 28th, and Broadway.

    Jazz isn’t a compositional genre, it’s a performance genre. Almost all American styles are, particularly the Southern. Jazz and blues picked up steam climbing the latitude ladder: Memphis, St Louis, Kansas City, Chicago.

    Actually, few Southerners were involved in the creation of the “great American songbook”. Hugh Martin from Birmingham was probably the top composer they produced. Johnny Mercer of Savannah is America’s greatest lyricist, but was only a once-in-a-while, if competent, composer. (His mom was Croatian, to boot. Hardly typical of Georgia!) Texan team Tom Jones and Harvey Schmidt appeared near the end of Broadway’s golden age.

    You might count Hoagy Carmichael and Isham Jones, too, but they grew up in Indiana and Michigan, respectively. Cole Porter might’ve been Southern on his father’s side (I’m still looking into it), but his drive clearly came from his mother’s Yankee Coles.

    Old-stock WASPs were second only to the hyperactive Jews in composing this music– they left Italians, Irish and Germans in the dust– but they tended to be Midwesterners or New Yorkers (downstate and up-) and usually part-Yankee, but never all. Something about hybrid vigor, I guess.

  210. @Steve Sailer
    @syonredux

    Somebody would have done it if Hemingway hadn't, but he did have an immense influence on prose style by getting writers to work on shortening their books. My favorite, Waugh, combines high metropolitan fluency with Hemingway-derived terseness, which makes his books funnier: he doesn't feel as much need to explain his jokes as previous writers would have.

    Replies: @syonredux

    RE: Hemingway,

    Although not the greatest Anglo writer of the period, I don’t think that it’s possible to overestimate Hemingway’s influence in the ’20s and the ’30s. You can feel his mark in authors as disparate as Raymond Chandler and William Faulkner.

  211. @unit472
    @SPMoore8

    There comes a point where you have to call a turd a turd and not dance around it with nuanced discussion of it being an unpleasant secretion or a necessary biological function. To call the events in Ferguson a 'mis-characterization' speaks of a timidity or squeamishness to confront the BS that emanates from this clown Coates. He has no academic or intellectual legitimacy and his 'ideas', if you want to call them that, are just the standard caterwauling of blacks used to excuse black failure.

    As William F. Buckley famously quipped, you could move the population of Haiti to Switzerland and the Swiss to Haiti and in a generation you'd have an Alpine hell and a tropical paradise. That is why the notion of 'reparations' can never be realized. The wealth of a people or nation is the sum of the knowledge, talents and efforts of a people and those cannot be 'transferred'.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “As William F. Buckley famously quipped, you could move the population of Haiti to Switzerland and the Swiss to Haiti and in a generation you’d have an Alpine hell and a tropical paradise. That is why the notion of ‘reparations’ can never be realized. The wealth of a people or nation is the sum of the knowledge, talents and efforts of a people and those cannot be ‘transferred’.”

    Switzerland never gets credit from The Left Wing Megaphone for being a very successful vibrantly diverse Multilingual and Multi ethnic country where you have Italian, French, and German speakers/descendents all peacefully living side by side with no Balkans style ethnic conflict of violence. Apparently Switzerland’s diversity is not The Left Wing Megaphone’s favorite type of diversity. It’s not their cup of tea.

  212. @Buffalo Joe
    @AnotherDad

    Canada has a small black population, but a large portion of crime, especially violent crime is committed by blacks. There are editorials and op-eds that refer to this as the problem Canada doesn't want to discuss. Canada is also a huge land mass with a small population, about the same number of inhabitants as the state of California. They accomplished a lot with a small population base, but many of their industries are US based.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “Canada has a small black population, but a large portion of crime, especially violent crime is committed by blacks.”

    Where is Canada’s version of Ferguson and East St. Louis?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Jefferson

    The city of Toronto has no ghetto that I am aware of and I am aware of no Canadian city with a majority black population. You would be surprised at how sparsely populated Canada is after you travel north of Toronto. I flew into and out of Thunder Bay, Ontario last year to on my way to a fly-in fishing trip. The area is pure wilderness as are many parts of Canada . Canada has had problems/demonstrations by the First Nations and the Tamils, but I don't remember any riots by blacks, too few I think.

  213. @AP
    @syonredux


    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    Note that he is speaking in terms of ratios.Relative to population, the North produced a vastly larger number of significant figures in the arts and the sciences (184 in the North vs 24 in the South)

    As for writers, look at the major figures in the US during the period 1830-1860:Melville, Hawthorne, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman, Poe. Poe is the only Southern figure of consequence.So, that’s 6 Northerners (all either from New York or Massachusetts) vs one Southerner.

    Turn then to the post-bellum period (1865-1914).The towering figures are the James boys* (Henry and William), Twain, and Howells.That’s three Northerners to one quasi-Southerner**

    Northern dominance also holds during the 1914-1945 period: Wharton, Cather (born in Virginia but formed by the Western frontier), Frost, O’Neill, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Eliot, Pound, Faulkner.

     

    I think one needs to take into account the South's social structure, which as you have correctly confirmed was indeed similar to that of Latin America and pre-Communist Eastern Europe. The South seems to have consisted of a class of highly educated, refined people and a lot of illiterate or barely literate "peasants," black and white. The South's population may not have been vastly smaller than the North's, but a lot of those Southerners were slaves or uneducated poor whites. The pool from which great people could be drawn was thus quite small in the South - but this small pool produced a lot. Arguably, Poe was greater than any one of his northern contemporaries; likewise Twain and perhaps Faulkner.

    Also, you left out Tennessee Williams, perhaps America's greatest playwright.

    I don't know if particular jazz composers are int he list, but the north does not seem to have produced something comparable to the South's invention of jazz music.

    Borges, for example, noted that one of the reasons why Latin American writers responded so powerfully to Faulkner is because they appreciated that he (unlike, say, the resolutely Anglo European New England writers) was, in a sense, Creole.
     
    The consensus in Russia is that Faulkner is the greatest American author. Hemingway and Fitzgerald are seen as being good, but not on that level. And Russians know something about literature.

    Here is a list of greatest American writers. The list isn't gospel (it's by something called askme.com) but I suppose it roughly represents consensus:

    http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment/73d_top_10_list.html

    Southerners come in at #2 (Poe), #3 (Twain, okay quasi-Southerner), #4 (Faulkner), and #9 (Williams).

    Replies: @syonredux, @Reg Cæsar, @Jefferson

    “I think one needs to take into account the South’s social structure, which as you have correctly confirmed was indeed similar to that of Latin America and pre-Communist Eastern Europe. The South seems to have consisted of a class of highly educated, refined people and a lot of illiterate or barely literate “peasants,” black and white.”

    Unlike the South, most of Latin America never had a large White peasant underclass. You can find some small pockets of White poverty in Argentina and Southern Brazil that can resemble West Virginia. But for the most part the vast majority of poor people in Latin America could never be racially categorized as White trash.

    This White Brazilian woman named Maria Das Gracas Silva Foster went from living in bone crushing poverty to becoming a multi-millionaire CEO and chemical engineer.

    But she definitely does not represent the typical racial face of Latin Americans who are born into poverty. She is the exception and not the rule. If she was the rule, most of the poor Latin Americans flooding into the U.S would look White but they don’t.

  214. @Pete
    @Cloud of Probable Matricide

    "When I saw Africa, I was damn glad my granpappy got on that boat!" —Muhammad Ali

    Replies: @Jefferson

    ““When I saw Africa, I was damn glad my granpappy got on that boat!” —Muhammad Ali”

    Muhammad Ali must also be glad that significant racial miscegenation took place in the U.S between Sub Saharan Africans and Europeans because he always had a preference for Mulatto looking women over Black women who look like they came straight out of The Congo.

  215. @Pete
    @Anonymous

    Blacks in general don't seem to identify with other "marginalized" groups as much as they see them as threats to their control of the highly lucrative grievance industry.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “Blacks in general don’t seem to identify with other “marginalized” groups as much as they see them as threats to their control of the highly lucrative grievance industry.”

    This is true, that is why the vast majority of Blacks have zero interest in learning about Auschwitz concentration camps, the Armenian genocide, and the internment of the Japanese in the U.S for example.

    They believe the Black race has a monopoly on suffrage and that no other group has ever had it anywhere near as bad as they did.

  216. @Honesthughgrant
    @syonredux

    The track record of Southerners in Science, Engineering, Industry, Medicine and Invention is pretty thin as a ratio to their population. Not as bad as the Aussies or Irish - but pretty low.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “The track record of Southerners in Science, Engineering, Industry, Medicine and Invention is pretty thin as a ratio to their population. Not as bad as the Aussies or Irish – but pretty low.”

    Jeff Foxworthy once made a joke about how funny it would sound if a highly educated doctor had a very strong blue collar redneck Southern accent. It would also sound funny if a highly educated doctor had an extremely strong blue collar New Yawk accent like Fran Drescher in The Nanny or Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinny.

    I notice that many White Americans in highly respected white collar professions who live in states with a strong regional accent, try to adopt a generic American accent.

  217. “I notice that many White Americans in highly respected white collar professions who live in states with a strong regional accent, try to adopt a generic American accent.”

    To follow up on this, many White doctors in New York/New Jersey try to sound as least New Yawk/New Joizy as possible when they speak just like many White doctors in the South to try to sound as least Southern as possible. They try to adopt the generic neutral American accent in the work place just like news anchors and political pundits on television.

    Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity have said before that their real off air accents sound a lot more New Yawk than what you hear from them on television. They had to adopt the generic neutral American accent to appeal to audiences in flyover states like Iowa, North Dakota, Nebraska, Utah, Minnesota, Colorado, Kansas, etc.

  218. @Jefferson
    @Buffalo Joe

    "Canada has a small black population, but a large portion of crime, especially violent crime is committed by blacks."

    Where is Canada's version of Ferguson and East St. Louis?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    The city of Toronto has no ghetto that I am aware of and I am aware of no Canadian city with a majority black population. You would be surprised at how sparsely populated Canada is after you travel north of Toronto. I flew into and out of Thunder Bay, Ontario last year to on my way to a fly-in fishing trip. The area is pure wilderness as are many parts of Canada . Canada has had problems/demonstrations by the First Nations and the Tamils, but I don’t remember any riots by blacks, too few I think.

  219. @Anonymous
    This points to something I thought when the Coates book came out-- this is close to the last moment when you could get away with making these sweeping claims about the centrality of African-Americans to American history. I live in Chicago, where of course they're politically quite important and their situation is everyone's concern (depending on how far out in the suburbs you move, I suppose). But I grew up in Kansas, where despite Brown v. Board of Education (which was about Topeka), they were not nearly so central to politics. And it's hard to see how they mattered at all to my mostly German Mennonite forebears, who went straight from the Ukraine (kicked out of Russia along with Tevye and his people) to farms in nowhere Kansas or Minnesota, probably barely seeing a black person along the way. You're in pretty vague penumbras of white privilege when you talk how subsistence farming in Kansas in the 1880s is somehow built on stolen black wealth. (Tell it to the Indians, pal.)

    Today, the rise of Latinos by numbers and Asians by wealth and influence will certainly reduce the African-American influence further, and they'll be competing for political attention with people who literally moved here a century and a half after slavery. Tell a Korean bodega owner (or his neurosurgeon son and concert violinist daughter) that you need a handout because poor and black people can't make it in America and he'll mock you as he throws you out. Which is no more than the Al Sharptons of the world deserve, but I suspect black America is going to have a rude awakening as it becomes just another constituency pandered to for a sliver of votes, not the key to all American politics.

    Replies: @celt darnell

    Re: but I suspect black America is going to have a rude awakening as it becomes just another constituency pandered to for a sliver of votes, not the key to all American politics.

    You’re right, of course, but the blacks’ awakening won’t be as rude as white Americans’ when we’re a just another minority, too.

  220. @syonredux
    @SPMoore8


    #1 – I would rank Poe very high for intellect and intellectual stimulation.
     
    He's clearly one of the most influential American authors.He pretty much invented the detective story, and he was a major influence on the development of the short story in English*

    #2 – I think Twain is, altogether, our best American author,
     
    He's clearly one of the best, but it would take a bold spirit to proclaim him greater than Melville, Henry James, Faulkner, and Hawthorne

    along with (nobody mentioned) Washington Irving.
     
    Very charming but rather lightweight in terms of content. Still, he did write two short stories ("Sleepy Hollow" and "Rip van Winkle") that are known all over the world.

    #3 – I don’t get this fascination with Southern American literature. I just don’t.
     
    Well, since I've been clobbering them, allow me a few kind words.They do have Faulkner, and he is clearly one of the very greatest American writers. And the Nashville Agrarians (Allen Tate, Robert Penn Warren, John Crowe Ransom, etc) are very interesting and well-worth reading

    #4 – Frankly I think William James was a much better writer than his brother. Okay, so he didn’t write novels. Henry James is good for building your vocabulary.
     
    Personally, I tend to concur.Of course, I am one of those benighted souls who think that early James (The Bostonians, Portrait of a Lady, etc) is better than late James (Wings of the Dove, The Ambassadors, etc)

    #5 – Stipulating “novels” as an index of literary greatness sounds artificial to me, and doesn’t really embrace the American idiom in prose.
     
    I was just trying to compare like to like.Comparing novelists to poets, say, can be a tricky business.

    American authors I like who I think have a good American character include Dreiser (catches the idiom well),
     
    He has his devotees.But he was a very clumsy writer.Also, a bit too German for my tastes.

    Sinclair Lewis (ditto),
     
    He's OK. I do love using him as a test case for the ineptitude of the Nobel Committee.They had the chance to make either Twain or Henry James the first American Nobel Laureate, and they went with Sinclair Lewis....

    Upton Sinclair (ditto),
     
    I find him unreadable.

    Dos Passos (ditto).
     
    Very tough slog.I had to read The 42nd Parallel in graduate school.Interesting to discuss (the "camera eye," etc), but I find him rather dull overall

    I much prefer any of them to the over-done trio of Ernest, Fitzgerald, and Faulkner.
     
    I go with the majority here; I think that they (along with Cather and Wharton) are the greatest American prose writers of the interwar period

    I like Steinbeck’s heart but he over-writes.
     
    I think that he's OK

    Bierce is overwrought in the 19th Century style but great humor and cynicism, and his CW stories are unforgettable.
     
    One of my personal favorites.Biting humor.After Poe, the best American horror writer of the 19th century.




    *One place where the USA clearly takes aesthetic precedence over the British involves the short story.The key figures in the development of the form are all American: Washington Irving, Hawthorne, Poe, Melville, etc. Barring Sir Walter Scott's "Two Drovers," you really don't see significant British work in the form until the late 19th century (Hardy, Kipling, etc)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @celt darnell

    Actually ETA Hoffmann created the detective story long before Poe.

    Poe’s are the first detective stories in English.

    Re: One place where the USA clearly takes aesthetic precedence over the British involves the short story.The key figures in the development of the form are all American.

    Well, you Americans can keep telling yourselves that, but most literate people would acknowledge Dickens (who was contemporaneous with Irving, Hawthorne and Poe and predates Melville).

    Poe’s stories, meantime, were mostly ripped straight out of Blackwood’s Edinburgh magazine.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    @celt darnell

    Washington Irving was 30 years older than Dickens, kind of hard to describe him as "contemporaneous" and then leave out Melville.

    However, I am just defending Irving, whose "History of New York" is very amusing, in fact there's a lot more to Irving than just the "Sketch Book." Outside of things like "Christmas Carol", which is rather long for a "short story" I don't know how much can be said for Dickens in this vein. I know he started with the "Boz" sketches, and they're OK, but not really competitive. One could, I suppose, describe "Pickwick" as a series of "short stories" but I've never seen it presented that way.

    On the other hand, Hawthorne, Twain, Harte -- there's a lot there, and this is before Bierce and many others.

    "Scuderi" as the first detective novel is something of a stretch; I think all three of Poe's mysteries (Rue Morgue, Purloined, and Marie Roget) are all fairly unique but I'd be interested in hearing a contrary explanation, the first two seem based on fundamental logical principles while the third is of course based on the notorious death of Mary Rogers in New York following a botched abortion in New Jersey, about where the Lincoln Tunnel entrance is today.

  221. @celt darnell
    @syonredux

    Actually ETA Hoffmann created the detective story long before Poe.

    Poe's are the first detective stories in English.

    Re: One place where the USA clearly takes aesthetic precedence over the British involves the short story.The key figures in the development of the form are all American.

    Well, you Americans can keep telling yourselves that, but most literate people would acknowledge Dickens (who was contemporaneous with Irving, Hawthorne and Poe and predates Melville).

    Poe's stories, meantime, were mostly ripped straight out of Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine.

    Replies: @SPMoore8

    Washington Irving was 30 years older than Dickens, kind of hard to describe him as “contemporaneous” and then leave out Melville.

    However, I am just defending Irving, whose “History of New York” is very amusing, in fact there’s a lot more to Irving than just the “Sketch Book.” Outside of things like “Christmas Carol”, which is rather long for a “short story” I don’t know how much can be said for Dickens in this vein. I know he started with the “Boz” sketches, and they’re OK, but not really competitive. One could, I suppose, describe “Pickwick” as a series of “short stories” but I’ve never seen it presented that way.

    On the other hand, Hawthorne, Twain, Harte — there’s a lot there, and this is before Bierce and many others.

    “Scuderi” as the first detective novel is something of a stretch; I think all three of Poe’s mysteries (Rue Morgue, Purloined, and Marie Roget) are all fairly unique but I’d be interested in hearing a contrary explanation, the first two seem based on fundamental logical principles while the third is of course based on the notorious death of Mary Rogers in New York following a botched abortion in New Jersey, about where the Lincoln Tunnel entrance is today.

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