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Chief Medical Examiner in George Floyd Case: "That Is a Fatal Level of Fentanyl Under Normal Circumstances"
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From Big League Politics:

New Documents Reveal Minneapolis Medical Examiner Would Conclude George Floyd Died of a Drug Overdose

Is the criminal case against the officers in jeopardy?

Published 1 hour ago on Aug 25, 2020

By Richard Moorhead

Previously unseen documents released by the Hennepin County Attorney’s Office on Tuesday reveal that a medical examiner who analyzed samples of George Floyd’s blood taken shortly after his death concluded that he died of a drug overdose.

A summary of a conversation between Amy Sweasy, a Hennepin County Attorney, and Dr. Andrew Baker, the chief medical examiner for the county, reveals that the former would conclude George Floyd died of a drug overdose if there were no other contributing factors.

 
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  1. Steve, any thoughts on Jerry Falwell, Jr.?

  2. The blood sample was drawn in the E.R., at about 9 p.m. C.D.T., on Memorial Day, May 25, 2020— i.e., about twenty-five minutes before Floyd was pronounced dead. Mr. Moorhead’s lede is factually incorrect.

    • Thanks: Jane Plain, Lowe
    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @D. K.


    The blood sample was drawn in the E.R., at about 9 p.m. C.D.T., on Memorial Day, May 25, 2020— i.e., about twenty-five minutes before Floyd was pronounced dead. Mr. Moorhead’s lede is factually incorrect.
     
    That's another lie they told us repeatedly -- that Floyd died "in front of us" as Chauvin callously kept him from breathing for the infamous "8 minutes and 15 seconds." Floyd died about an hour later from his overdose and not from asphyxiation.

    Everything about this was a lie from the beginning, including delaying release of the toxicology report; manipulating the cause of death finding; hiding the body-cam footage; promoting a fake "second autopsy;" rushing out with bogus indictments. You can't believe anything when Democrats and the MSM are involved.

    And all this for the evil purpose of promoting riots and burning cities. These people are beyond despicable.

    Replies: @PseudoNhymm, @D. K.

  3. Is the criminal case against the officers in jeopardy?

    Now, that’s a really weird way to put it. I mean, if they are innocent, there should be no criminal case to BE in jeopardy, right? By “weird”, I mean “biased as all hell”.

    • Replies: @gregor
    @Achmed E. Newman

    They are essentially saying, “We really want to string these guys up but the damn evidence is getting in the way!”

    It might be getting to the point where we will need a term for white guys who get railroaded in cases like this.

    “Reverse OJ’d”
    “Pale-roaded”

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @AnotherDad, @Harry Baldwin

  4. … and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained… already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars … spent that money, dayum …

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Eric416
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Sounds like a good time was had by some.

    , @Kronos
    @Achmed E. Newman

    What are you talking about?! These “fire sales” are the best thing ever!

    Got a new watch, computer, tv, all free! I love this free socialism stuff, should’ve supported it years ago. Damn shame the PS5 isn’t out yet.

    https://youtu.be/iHFdYic6vuw

    , @AnotherDad
    @Achmed E. Newman


    … and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained… already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars … spent that money, dayum …
     
    It certainly was not "for nothing".

    It was yet another--now with video!--blood libel against flyover white gentiles, all part of the propaganda for why we should not be allowed to have or control or live as we please in the nation our ancestors built

    .. just punishment, of course, for the crime of letting the Jews come here to this safe refuge and middle man securely in a huge, rich nation; for teaming up with the Brits and Soviet Union to destroy Nazi Germany and end the holocaust. Can't really be for the "Restricted" Country Clubs. Maybe it's "just because".

    I swear, as God is my witness ... i have never baked my brownies with the blood of black bodies.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Redneck farmer

  5. Sure St. George may have died of a drug overdose, but we all had a fun time and that’s what counts. Maybe the real systemic racism is the friends we made along the way.

    • Thanks: Anonymousse
    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Hockamaw


    Sure St. George may have died of a drug overdose, but we all had a fun time and that’s what counts. Maybe the real systemic racism is the friends we made along the way.
     
    Someday we'll look back and have a good laugh: "Hey, remember that time everyone lied to us and the whole country burned down cuz a junkie overdosed. Good times, man."

    It was almost as funny as that Gavrilo Princip prank.

    Replies: @Rob McX

  6. Is the criminal case against the officers in jeopardy?

    Well, yes, I should think that it would be…

  7. Is the criminal case against the officers in jeopardy?

    We can hope so.

  8. Mr. Floyd was a true junkie and died like one.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @trelane

    trelane, thanks for your LOL at my deleted 2:00 am GMT post. I re-posted at 2:12, feel free to LOL again :)

  9. Anon[213] • Disclaimer says:

    Well, I noticed that after the first autopsy they arrested the knee-cop, but after the second autopsy by the family’s team came out, they rushed to arrest a couple of more cops: Since neither autopsy showed esophogal crushing (which in any event should not happen during a properly executed knee hold), obviously no breathing problem could come from that (I think they were counting on claiming that the knee somehow cut off blood in a way that would not cause unconsciousness, but might reduce oxygen?).

    The second autopsy explicitly downplayed the knee’s contribution and went with a cummulative diaphraghm/lung expansion hindrance theory, which required the entire restraining team to be arrested, since no single party’s action would have caused death.

    So even in the absense of the tox report, I thought that with a proper defense the cops would have better than even odds of getting off.

    If they get off, boy is there going to be rioting. If I were in retail I’d switch to an online business model right now. If I lived in a suburb I’d buy guns and ammo, organize with neighbors to convert the street to an impromptu gated community with barricades, and start a baseball team on your block, complete with several dozen bats.

    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere. Mobs are going to the houses of public officials and police officers, and nothing is really done about it. If you vote not guilty, I could see a woke fellow juror ratting you out and your residence being doxxed and burned down with you and your family in it. I could see employers firing jurors who are outed as “non guiltyers.” This could all be something that jurors absorb by osmosis from the current zeitgeist, not by direct threat.

    • Replies: @gregor
    @Anon

    I could tell right away from the original video that the knee was a red herring. I’ve watched enough MMA to know that you either have to cut off the carotid arteries or the windpipe and the cop was nowhere near that area. And all the information that’s come out since like the autopsy and bodycam footage have made Floyd less and less sympathetic. As usual.

    I don’t see how they can make a case against the cops at this point unless they abandon all pretense of rule of law. I don’t see how you can hold the cops accountable just because a guy has a medical emergency while resisting arrest. It’s absurd.

    , @Pestarz
    @Anon


    esophogal
     
    You're thinking tracheal (windpipe) not esophageal (foodtube), but yes it seems like this may have had more to do with drug abuse (fentanyl decreasing drive to breathe and causing pulmonary edema and thus limiting oxygen supply, while amphetamines increased cardiac demand) rather than anything the police did.
    Do note that the document says "fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances." Opioid tolerance varies wildly with patterns of use; what kills a first-time user might not even phase a chronic user.
    And yes, if all these "facts of the case," "Chief Medical Examiner's professional opinion" and "video evidence" lead to anything less than huge sentences all around there will probably be an unhappy reaction from the left and their street team.

    Replies: @Ozymandias

    , @Kronos
    @Anon


    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere.
     
    That’s been a continuous fear since the Rodney King riots. When those cops got acquitted the riots caused substantial damage. That’s going to be on everyone’s mind in the court case.

    After three days of arson and looting some 3,767 buildings were affected and damaged.[182][183] and property damage was estimated at more than $1 billion.[45][184][185]
     
    -Wikipedia

    Keep in mind these new riots already occurred before the case even started. So maybe a bunch of steam has already been released? (Who am I kidding? Anyone owning property there is more screwed than a Power-drill competition.)

    , @lysias
    @Anon

    Judge should direct a verdict of not guilty if the prosecution does not drop the case as it should. That would leave the jurors off the hook. Dangerous for the judge, but that's the judge's job.

    , @ThurstonBT
    @Anon

    Above you reference the existence of a "second autopsy by the family’s team". To my knowledge no "second autopsy" occurred and the claim of "second autopsy" is just a canard.

    Can you, or anyone else, provide an authoritative citation of this putative "second autopsy"?

  10. The pulmonary edema would certainly explain the inability to breathe . . . .

    • Agree: Mr McKenna
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Charlotte


    The pulmonary edema would certainly explain the inability to breathe . . . .
     
    Could the pulmonary edema have been caused by the officers’ weight on Floyd’s body?
  11. There will be charges and a trial no matter what. I will not try to predict the outcome.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    @Joe Magarac

    There will be charges and a trial no matter what. I will not try to predict the outcome.

    The outcome? Acquittal or conviction? There will be riots no matter what.

    Replies: @bomag

  12. It is notable that the hospital medical staff were able to take his blood samples before he died. He arrived at the hospital 15 minutes after the paramedics loaded him into the ambulance , thus he passed away 45 minutes or so after the officers stopped kneeling on him.

    There is much in the medical journals which demonstrate the average fentanyl levels for drug addicts is 11 ng/ml. So his of is a typical fatal level of fentanyl in his blood…not sure how the speed interfere with the opioids. If he was a white guy this would just be another junkie death. Not clear how big of a junkie he was. Must have been a regular user to have been able to walk and talk with so much fentanyl in his blood. Was enough to fentanyl in his blood to kill 5 adult males.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco


    It is notable that the hospital medical staff were able to take his blood samples before he died.
     
    How do you know the blood samples were taken prior to his death, and not after?

    So his of is a typical fatal level of fentanyl in his blood
     
    What do you mean by this sentence? It seems garbled.

    Replies: @bruce county, @travis

    , @Redman
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco

    He took the fentanyl while struggling in the car. That’s what the defense team is alleging. And what I said from day 1 after seeing the video where Floyd tried to drop a white baggie, but then picked it up again. Not sure why others haven’t discussed this.

  13. I am thinking I disagree with the incremental thinking in these cases. If a camel has a nine hundred ninety nine sticks on its back and an incremental stick breaks it, how do you allocate responsibility? Incremental thinking makes sense when speaking of a single producer making production decisions, or when making a decision whether or not to add another stick to the load, but may not apply in this case.

  14. • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Amazing he got away with that tweet and I just got 12 hours in Twitter jail for responding to this tweet with “Of [glass of milk emoji].

    https://twitter.com/nytdaniel/status/1298379631050084356?s=21

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @AnotherDad, @El Dato

  15. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    https://twitter.com/SN1P35/status/1294898268426498052

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Amazing he got away with that tweet and I just got 12 hours in Twitter jail for responding to this tweet with “Of [glass of milk emoji].

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Dave Pinsen


    Of [glass of milk emoji]
     
    Hahaha. What was the exact reason Twitter gave for the timeout—“Hoes Mad”? I see one Akilah Hughes (blue check) is feeling tough tonight.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    , @AnotherDad
    @Dave Pinsen

    One can only hope she's doing a parody of a self-centered, emotional, woe-is-me actress. But I suspect not.


    Why does she think she has this nice career? Because she's a compelling technology or financial analyst of comparative cell phone services? Certainly she must know that it's because she's easy on the eyes ... guys don't mind looking at her while she delivers her pitch.

    A smarter less self-involved gal would respond to guys yapping about her "milkers" with something like: "Please be respectful, and, if you must do so, refer to my breasts by their proper designation "milk jugs".

    Of course what she should be doing is using her natural endowments to lock down a quality, decent earning guy and then put those jugs to their intended use!

    Replies: @vhrm, @The Wild Geese Howard

    , @El Dato
    @Dave Pinsen

    Reminder that Big Breasts are meant to be put on display for eminently hippocampal reasons and this is totally encouraged - but you are meant to behave like a non-noticing englishman with a stiff ... uhh ... upper lip, praising her deep intellect, emotional maturity and dedication to professionalism as well as her bravery of quietly carrying the weight of Being a Woman 24/7.

    From January:

    Those jugs:

    ‘Is it cold in Argentina?’: Belgian cycling journalist rides into sexism row over pic of female reporter

    Dat sisterhood anger:

    https://twitter.com/SophieSmith86/status/1222647803463127040

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  16. Move along. Nothing to see here. Facts don’t matter.

  17. Anonymous[557] • Disclaimer says:

    I’ll take the under on the mob reaction to cops getting not guilty verdicts.

    The worm is turning against marxist scum BLM.

    Also the latest Wisconsin episode is another case of selective video editing.

    Whatevers. Both MN and WI are being given away to Trump. The Dem braintrust has never been dumber.

    Quick name Joe Biden’s campaign manager. You can’t. No one can. It’s some chick named Jen and she ain’t David Axelrod that’s for sure. Looks like 20 iq points lower.

    Gotta wonder if Geffen & Co are OK with a Dem Congress sweep and Trump as potus.

  18. You’re behind the times. Now the cops shot Jacob Blake with 7 shots in the back. Explain to me how taking fentanyl caused 7 shots to enter Jacob Blake’s back. I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody. It is outrageous that some people get outraged by this traditional, harmless method of custody-taking. Jacob Blake, being a drug addict and a convicted felon, deserved to be shot 7 times in the back, actually. And his children deserved to see it.The little convicted felon drug addicts. Because . . . reasons.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • LOL: Anonymousse
    • Replies: @anon
    @obwandiyag

    I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody.

    You're really dumb, and nobody's buying it.

    No offense.

    , @Twinkie
    @obwandiyag

    Don’t fight with cops (while allegedly carrying a knife) and then try to reach for “something” in your car.

    It only takes a split second for someone who has or reaches for a gun to turn around at shoot at others. Are you suggesting that police officers should only be allowed to shoot when the violent suspect turns around and points a gun at them? That’s asking cops to get shot.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer

    , @JimDandy
    @obwandiyag

    Yet is father says his son has eight holes in him. One of you is a fucking liar.

    , @AfghanistanBananaStand
    @obwandiyag

    Yeah those cops violated every tenant of their training. Everyone knows the proper procedure is for the police to allow the detainee, after resisting arrest and ignoring warnings and commands, to reach into his vehicle to retrieve a weapon and pop off a few rounds before reacting with any force to protect themselves and citizen bystanders. NOT!!!!!
    The "traditional harmless method" is for the detainee to respond to officers questions, requests and commands in an honest, timely manner up to and including arrest. Any variance to that procedure and hopes of a "harmless" procedure quickly dissipates into embarrassment, inconvenience, discomfort, pain and even tragedy. Jacob Blake began breaking the law almost immediately after his traffic stop and his offenses escalated rapidly out of control. People who are out of control are a threat to everyone. Jacob Blake's behavior was unpredictable. So were his intentions. The duties of those peace officers go beyond maintaining order and public safety and enforcing laws. They have a duty and a right to return safely to their lives and loved ones. Those cops couldn't wait to see what an unlawful, belligerent suspect was reaching into his vehicle for. His obvious behavior was their only indicator. Police die in the line of duty all the time and they face it with courage and resolve. No politically correct social order or cowardly bureaucrat has a right to ask for more. NO ONE has the right to ask for more.

    , @ic1000
    @obwandiyag

    > You’re behind the times.

    Agree. The circus has moved on. 11 ng/mL fentanyl plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl is yesterday’s news. And always was.

    , @Brutusale
    @obwandiyag

    Yeah, his children needed to see "it". "It" may be a bit more effective than the mythical "Talk".

    This particular "Talk", on the other hand, may be the one for potential Jakes to heed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

  19. It’s amazingly sad that the two rookie cops still under supervision have been charged. Does Minnesota allow a trial before a judge, if necessary, to avoid a skittish jury? Don’t see any way they could be convicted if justice is served.

    • Replies: @Ray Huffman
    @Bill in Glendale

    I believe every state permits defendants to select a bench trial if desired. And the first thing they teach in law school is that if your client has a good case that's the smart thing to do.

    , @travis
    @Bill in Glendale

    true, and one of them was Black. Could his defense lawyers claim that his DNA was impaired epigenetically from his great great great grandmothers time as a slave ? Thus he is not responsible for holding down Floyd while he died of a drug overdose.

  20. Some guy in a YouTube video I can’t find now argued that while yes, Floyd’s fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range, with some deaths occurring at a much lower level than Floyd’s and others at a much higher level. The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn’t as useful as it might seem. What you need to know instead is whether Floyd was exhibiting the symptoms of an overdose (especially “nodding off”). The claim was that the various videos did not show him exhibiting these symptoms, and therefore he probably was not overdosing.

    While the guy in the video was clearly a standard issue liberal, I think he made a fair point. It would be quite remarkable if Floyd’s dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence! I’d say it’s much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    • Disagree: Cloudbuster
    • LOL: Redman
    • Replies: @Anonymousse
    @jb


    It would be quite remarkable if Floyd’s dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence!
     
    I’ve said this before and I’ll probably say it again, but your neck is not a weakspot that anyone can hit for massive damage. ACTUALLY choking someone to unconsciousness takes specific pressure in specific places, it does not occur very easily or accidentally. A knee across the BACK and on one SIDE of your neck where thick muscles, bones, and tendons are will NOT kill you. You might get really sore and want to see a chiropractor, but you will remain completely conscious. A real choke compresses the front of the neck (air) or the sides towards the front on both sides (blood).

    That’s WHY that knee restraint is a thing in the first place. It’s not dangerous. I know it looks scary, but the human neck is designed to be strong and resilient (like the rest of us). Plenty of people are caught in actual chokes even by professionals and hold out for minutes on end, if the choke technique is not correctly applied with pressure in the right place - it doesn’t actually work.

    Choking people is hard and Chauvin did NOT choke anyone. The medical evidence was clear but it’s also plain to anyone watching the video with experience in this stuff

    This guy got fired for attempting to dent the narrative with applicable expertise but couch potatoes and social justice types completely failed to understand his point anyway

    https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/not-dead-yet-school-district-investigates-wrestling-coachs-george-floyd-post/T4UCHL2R6JHR5DNQCZDWVLPL2M/

    Replies: @Anonymous, @jb

    , @Lot
    @jb

    "The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn’t as useful as it might seem."

    No conclusive evidence of heroin use in his blood, no track marks from IV drug use. He also did not have the build of a junkie.

    "tolerant of doses that would kill new users"

    The dose of fentanyl used in cancer patients who are already highly tolerant of opiates is at most 3, and Floyd was at 11.

    The only way that level doesn't kill Floyd is he was a very heavy user. And there's zero evidence of this in the autopsy.

    He most likely ingested what he thought was an oxycodone pill, but was a chinese fake made with too much fentanyl. This is, by the way, exactly how Prince died.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @jb, @anon

    , @bomag
    @jb


    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.
     
    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with fentanyl.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with resisting arrest.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with a cocktail of illegal drugs.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with passing fake money.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    , @JimDandy
    @jb

    "I’d say it’s much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police."


    HAHAHA! Despite the fact that he was freaking out and saying he couldn't breathe even before his confrontation with the cops. And his corroded heart was twice the size of a normal person's. And he had a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system. Still, you cling to your precious narrative.

    Replies: @jb

    , @anon
    @jb

    It would be quite remarkable if Floyd’s dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence!

    Well, it's more like the ten minutes he spent wreetling with the cops before that. Do you know how much a real ten-minute struggle takes it out of you even if you AREN'T on drugs? That's why he was saying that he couldn't breathe before he was on the ground. That's why someone told him that, if he didn't stop, he was going to give himself a heart attack. Which isn't exactly what happened, but it's pretty close

    Face it. Your friends burned down a city over a drug overdose. Own it. Be proud.

    , @ic1000
    @jb

    > Some guy in a YouTube video I can’t find now argued that... while Floyd’s fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range

    Yes. See Lot's reply to your comment.

    My comment #133 on a June 9th iSteve post also addressed this.


    Tolerance is probably the key factor that determines whether 11 ng/mL is a little or a lot. For many/most first-time users, it looks like enough to cause stupor and then respiratory arrest. But one hallmark of opioids is that the body adapts to regular use over a period of weeks — you need progressively more to get high, and also to achieve the (undesired) effect of respiratory arrest.
     
    In comment #106 on the same thread, illustrious commenter JackD linked the key 2018 paper by Olaf Drummer, "Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review." Drummer wrote:

    Numerous publications have described fatalities associated with [fentanyl’s] misuse… Peripheral blood concentrations range from near 1 ng/mL to well over 20 ng/mL with a median somewhere between 5 and 10 ng/mL, depending on degree of tolerance and presence of other significant drugs. Doses vary significantly depending on the route of administration and degree of tolerance.
     
    Table 1 summarizes 7 reports' accounts of hundreds of fentanyl overdoses. The highest was 139 ng/mL. (The table doesn't speak to what the highest non-fatal blood level on record might be.)

    One would need the history of Floyd’s drug use to put his 11 ng/mL (plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl) in context, beyond saying, "that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it."

    Replies: @travis, @Chrisnonymous, @Sean, @Alice in Wonderland

  21. Anonymous[307] • Disclaimer says:

    GOOD NEWS: Kanye is on the ballot in CO MN IA & VA.

    BAD NEWS: Kanye blocked in WI.

    Kanye is the wildcard in this election. Could be a large write-in vote besides official vote. Kanye write-ins are important they are votes that don’t go to Biden.

    And Biden is only up 5 in NY state?! Cuomo downfall coming worse than his dad.

    And Biden people are floating the idea that Biden won’t do any normal campaign stops.

    HAHAHA.

    ——-

    Praise God … look at all the ballots we’re on On

    Oklahoma
    Arkansas
    Vermont
    West Virginia
    Colorado
    Iowa
    Utah
    Minnesota
    Tennessee
    Virginia

  22. @Joe Magarac
    There will be charges and a trial no matter what. I will not try to predict the outcome.

    Replies: @Daniel H

    There will be charges and a trial no matter what. I will not try to predict the outcome.

    The outcome? Acquittal or conviction? There will be riots no matter what.

    • Replies: @bomag
    @Daniel H


    There will be riots no matter what.
     
    Yes, the charges will be too soft; the sentence too lenient; etc.

    The DA might string it out forever; letting it expire for lack of a speedy trial.
  23. @Dave Pinsen
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Amazing he got away with that tweet and I just got 12 hours in Twitter jail for responding to this tweet with “Of [glass of milk emoji].

    https://twitter.com/nytdaniel/status/1298379631050084356?s=21

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @AnotherDad, @El Dato

    Of [glass of milk emoji]

    Hahaha. What was the exact reason Twitter gave for the timeout—“Hoes Mad”? I see one Akilah Hughes (blue check) is feeling tough tonight.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Violating their rules against abuse and harassment.

    Screen cap of their email here:

    https://gab.com/dpinsen/posts/104753605337195360

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

  24. @Charlotte
    The pulmonary edema would certainly explain the inability to breathe . . . .

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The pulmonary edema would certainly explain the inability to breathe . . . .

    Could the pulmonary edema have been caused by the officers’ weight on Floyd’s body?

  25. Anonymous[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    It is notable that the hospital medical staff were able to take his blood samples before he died. He arrived at the hospital 15 minutes after the paramedics loaded him into the ambulance , thus he passed away 45 minutes or so after the officers stopped kneeling on him.

    There is much in the medical journals which demonstrate the average fentanyl levels for drug addicts is 11 ng/ml. So his of is a typical fatal level of fentanyl in his blood...not sure how the speed interfere with the opioids. If he was a white guy this would just be another junkie death. Not clear how big of a junkie he was. Must have been a regular user to have been able to walk and talk with so much fentanyl in his blood. Was enough to fentanyl in his blood to kill 5 adult males.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Redman

    It is notable that the hospital medical staff were able to take his blood samples before he died.

    How do you know the blood samples were taken prior to his death, and not after?

    So his of is a typical fatal level of fentanyl in his blood

    What do you mean by this sentence? It seems garbled.

    • Replies: @bruce county
    @Anonymous


    How do you know the blood samples were taken prior to his death, and not after?
     
    From what my ex has told me and how I understood her. (she is an RN of 30 years). Blood samples are taken immediately in most trauma cases to do a review of blood content before administering meds and or anesthesia should it be needed prior to surgery. Not all work ups for blood are for discovery of drugs but the sample is there if needed for police investigation. Only if the police request such. And that is only on police assumption that alcohol or drugs are a factor.
    If a patient is unconscious they do not need permission to draw a sample upon police request.
    Its a matter of chain of possession from that point on.
    Her experience was mostly for impaired drivers cases where a sample was drawn but the same procedure was applied if drugs were suspected.
    , @travis
    @Anonymous

    the autopsy report indicates he was pronounced dead 30 minutes after the blood was drawn. The Autopsy report also indicates this is made the blood analysis more accurate than when blood is taken from a dead person during the autopsy. So the medical examiner states that this blood analysis was more accurate because it was taken before Floyd died.

    I assume his blood was still pumping when they took his blood 30 minuted before he was declared dead. Since i have low blood pressure , it is often hard for them to draw blood from my arm. I do wonder how the nurses were able to get blood drawn from a man without a pulse. But they somehow were able to get his blood 30 minutes before he died from the fentanyl overdose.

  26. OT: Big Time! hahahahhaaha Melania just walked-out with my grandfather’s uniform ( right down to the correct color of mud) on her awesome frame, from the time he was a Jaeger, fighting the Bolsheviks. Gorgeous Melania is the best First Lady, ever! Melania wore it better! But, my 2 granddad’s have enough medals to sink a ship. Just love our First Lady! Greatest First Lady, ever!

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    just adore Melania and support Trump. I have had tears in my eyes listening to the stories of the RP Convention. I was so proud and moved by Tiffany Trump's speech. She looked so confident and ready to take things on as she is a young law graduate. I applaud Marla ( I met her, decades ago, duh) for raising such an incredibly talented, gifted, poised, and strong woman - she is a Shield Maiden!

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

  27. @Achmed E. Newman
    ... and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained... already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars ... spent that money, dayum ...

    Replies: @Eric416, @Kronos, @AnotherDad

    Sounds like a good time was had by some.

  28. @trelane
    Mr. Floyd was a true junkie and died like one.

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    trelane, thanks for your LOL at my deleted 2:00 am GMT post. I re-posted at 2:12, feel free to LOL again 🙂

  29. @Lagertha
    OT: Big Time! hahahahhaaha Melania just walked-out with my grandfather's uniform ( right down to the correct color of mud) on her awesome frame, from the time he was a Jaeger, fighting the Bolsheviks. Gorgeous Melania is the best First Lady, ever! Melania wore it better! But, my 2 granddad's have enough medals to sink a ship. Just love our First Lady! Greatest First Lady, ever!

    Replies: @Lagertha

    just adore Melania and support Trump. I have had tears in my eyes listening to the stories of the RP Convention. I was so proud and moved by Tiffany Trump’s speech. She looked so confident and ready to take things on as she is a young law graduate. I applaud Marla ( I met her, decades ago, duh) for raising such an incredibly talented, gifted, poised, and strong woman – she is a Shield Maiden!

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Lagertha

    Nick Fuentes with a different take.

    https://twitter.com/nickjfuentes/status/1298449251962322947?s=21

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Anonymousse, @AnotherDad

  30. OT: in masked facial recognition news:

    In July, NIST released a report noting that face masks were thwarting regular facial recognition algorithms, with error rates ranging from 5% to 50%. NIST is widely considered the leading authority on facial recognition accuracy testing, and expected algorithms to improve on identifying people in face masks.

    That day has yet to come, as every algorithm experienced marginal increases in error rates once masks came into the picture. While some algorithms still had accuracy overall, like Chinese facial recognition company Dahua’s algorithm error rate going from 0.3% without masks to 6% with masks, others had error rates increasing up to 99%.

    https://www.cnet.com/health/facial-recognition-designed-to-detect-around-face-masks-is-failing-study-finds/

    Masks may have an uncertain future in our virtual panopticon.

  31. So the Hennepin County Attorney’s Office was notified on June 1st, and waited for all the riots to burn out before releasing this? Who did he learn that trick from?

  32. @Anon
    Well, I noticed that after the first autopsy they arrested the knee-cop, but after the second autopsy by the family’s team came out, they rushed to arrest a couple of more cops: Since neither autopsy showed esophogal crushing (which in any event should not happen during a properly executed knee hold), obviously no breathing problem could come from that (I think they were counting on claiming that the knee somehow cut off blood in a way that would not cause unconsciousness, but might reduce oxygen?).

    The second autopsy explicitly downplayed the knee’s contribution and went with a cummulative diaphraghm/lung expansion hindrance theory, which required the entire restraining team to be arrested, since no single party’s action would have caused death.

    So even in the absense of the tox report, I thought that with a proper defense the cops would have better than even odds of getting off.

    If they get off, boy is there going to be rioting. If I were in retail I’d switch to an online business model right now. If I lived in a suburb I’d buy guns and ammo, organize with neighbors to convert the street to an impromptu gated community with barricades, and start a baseball team on your block, complete with several dozen bats.

    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere. Mobs are going to the houses of public officials and police officers, and nothing is really done about it. If you vote not guilty, I could see a woke fellow juror ratting you out and your residence being doxxed and burned down with you and your family in it. I could see employers firing jurors who are outed as “non guiltyers." This could all be something that jurors absorb by osmosis from the current zeitgeist, not by direct threat.

    Replies: @gregor, @Pestarz, @Kronos, @lysias, @ThurstonBT

    I could tell right away from the original video that the knee was a red herring. I’ve watched enough MMA to know that you either have to cut off the carotid arteries or the windpipe and the cop was nowhere near that area. And all the information that’s come out since like the autopsy and bodycam footage have made Floyd less and less sympathetic. As usual.

    I don’t see how they can make a case against the cops at this point unless they abandon all pretense of rule of law. I don’t see how you can hold the cops accountable just because a guy has a medical emergency while resisting arrest. It’s absurd.

  33. @Anon
    Well, I noticed that after the first autopsy they arrested the knee-cop, but after the second autopsy by the family’s team came out, they rushed to arrest a couple of more cops: Since neither autopsy showed esophogal crushing (which in any event should not happen during a properly executed knee hold), obviously no breathing problem could come from that (I think they were counting on claiming that the knee somehow cut off blood in a way that would not cause unconsciousness, but might reduce oxygen?).

    The second autopsy explicitly downplayed the knee’s contribution and went with a cummulative diaphraghm/lung expansion hindrance theory, which required the entire restraining team to be arrested, since no single party’s action would have caused death.

    So even in the absense of the tox report, I thought that with a proper defense the cops would have better than even odds of getting off.

    If they get off, boy is there going to be rioting. If I were in retail I’d switch to an online business model right now. If I lived in a suburb I’d buy guns and ammo, organize with neighbors to convert the street to an impromptu gated community with barricades, and start a baseball team on your block, complete with several dozen bats.

    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere. Mobs are going to the houses of public officials and police officers, and nothing is really done about it. If you vote not guilty, I could see a woke fellow juror ratting you out and your residence being doxxed and burned down with you and your family in it. I could see employers firing jurors who are outed as “non guiltyers." This could all be something that jurors absorb by osmosis from the current zeitgeist, not by direct threat.

    Replies: @gregor, @Pestarz, @Kronos, @lysias, @ThurstonBT

    esophogal

    You’re thinking tracheal (windpipe) not esophageal (foodtube), but yes it seems like this may have had more to do with drug abuse (fentanyl decreasing drive to breathe and causing pulmonary edema and thus limiting oxygen supply, while amphetamines increased cardiac demand) rather than anything the police did.
    Do note that the document says “fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances.” Opioid tolerance varies wildly with patterns of use; what kills a first-time user might not even phase a chronic user.
    And yes, if all these “facts of the case,” “Chief Medical Examiner’s professional opinion” and “video evidence” lead to anything less than huge sentences all around there will probably be an unhappy reaction from the left and their street team.

    • Thanks: Mr McKenna
    • Replies: @Ozymandias
    @Pestarz


    Opioid tolerance varies wildly with patterns of use; what kills a first-time user might not even phase a chronic user.
     
    True, but in order to utilize this fact the prosecution will have to portray the "victim" as a frequent user. How is that going to play out? "Deadly levels of fentanyl wouldn't have killed George, he was a hardcore junkie!" That's a tough sell.
  34. Floyd is so May.

    It’s August. Jacob Blake is the new George Floyd. Kenosha is the new Minneapolis.

    Can JayBlay last until the election? Does he have to? Will it be better for them to dump all of these incidents down the memory hole for October if they appear to work as sandbags on Biden?

    Has Blake spoken yet? We’re due for his Rodney King moment.

  35. @D. K.
    The blood sample was drawn in the E.R., at about 9 p.m. C.D.T., on Memorial Day, May 25, 2020— i.e., about twenty-five minutes before Floyd was pronounced dead. Mr. Moorhead’s lede is factually incorrect.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    The blood sample was drawn in the E.R., at about 9 p.m. C.D.T., on Memorial Day, May 25, 2020— i.e., about twenty-five minutes before Floyd was pronounced dead. Mr. Moorhead’s lede is factually incorrect.

    That’s another lie they told us repeatedly — that Floyd died “in front of us” as Chauvin callously kept him from breathing for the infamous “8 minutes and 15 seconds.” Floyd died about an hour later from his overdose and not from asphyxiation.

    Everything about this was a lie from the beginning, including delaying release of the toxicology report; manipulating the cause of death finding; hiding the body-cam footage; promoting a fake “second autopsy;” rushing out with bogus indictments. You can’t believe anything when Democrats and the MSM are involved.

    And all this for the evil purpose of promoting riots and burning cities. These people are beyond despicable.

    • Agree: kaganovitch, Lot, Goatweed
    • Replies: @PseudoNhymm
    @Hypnotoad666

    There's a difference between dying and being pronounced dead. The latter can happen long after the former. Watch the video of Floyd's ambulance ride. He was getting CPR by machine. His heart stopped on the pavement and didn't restart. That's pretty dead

    Replies: @Jane Plain

    , @D. K.
    @Hypnotoad666

    From Wikipedia.org’s scrupulously factual entry on the “Killing of George Floyd”:

    ***

    At 8:27 pm, a Hennepin County ambulance arrived.[7]:5:56[11]:7:11 Shortly thereafter, a young relative of the owner of Cup Foods attempted to intervene, but was pushed back by Thao.[7]:6:03 Emergency medical technicians checked Floyd's pulse.[11]:7:17 Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless.[11]:7:21 Prosecutors said that Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck for seven minutes and forty-six seconds.[a][7]:6:27[11]:7:28[1]

    Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[70] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[7]:6:35[11]:7:43[1] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[7]:6:35[11]:7:43[1] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[7]:6:56[11]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[11]:7:56[71] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[11]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[7]:6:56

    Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 at the Hennepin County Medical Center emergency room.[7]:7:12[11]:8:28[1][72]

    ***

    [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_George_Floyd#Medical_response_and_death ]

    So, the policemen, including Officer Chauvin, released their restraint on Floyd at approximately 8:28 p.m. C.D.T.— approximately 57 minutes before he was pronounced dead— and Floyd then went into cardiac arrest in the ambulance, en route to the E.R., a few to several minutes after being driven away from the scene of the crimes (his, not the policemen’s!).

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  36. @Achmed E. Newman

    Is the criminal case against the officers in jeopardy?
     
    Now, that's a really weird way to put it. I mean, if they are innocent, there should be no criminal case to BE in jeopardy, right? By "weird", I mean "biased as all hell".

    Replies: @gregor

    They are essentially saying, “We really want to string these guys up but the damn evidence is getting in the way!”

    It might be getting to the point where we will need a term for white guys who get railroaded in cases like this.

    “Reverse OJ’d”
    “Pale-roaded”

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @gregor

    I like "pale-roaded".

    , @AnotherDad
    @gregor

    Like "pale roaded". Thanks gregor.

    , @Harry Baldwin
    @gregor

    It might be getting to the point where we will need a term for white guys who get railroaded in cases like this.

    The word is lynched. BLM wants to lynch every white police officer who shoots a black. Whether it was a good shoot or a bad shoot doesn't't matter. All that blabbing about presumption of innocence and due process is just white man's logic that isn't part of their culture, and it's inherently racist because it so often denies them the satisfaction they want. They want a lynching.

  37. @Achmed E. Newman
    ... and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained... already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars ... spent that money, dayum ...

    Replies: @Eric416, @Kronos, @AnotherDad

    What are you talking about?! These “fire sales” are the best thing ever!

    Got a new watch, computer, tv, all free! I love this free socialism stuff, should’ve supported it years ago. Damn shame the PS5 isn’t out yet.

  38. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Dave Pinsen


    Of [glass of milk emoji]
     
    Hahaha. What was the exact reason Twitter gave for the timeout—“Hoes Mad”? I see one Akilah Hughes (blue check) is feeling tough tonight.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Violating their rules against abuse and harassment.

    Screen cap of their email here:

    https://gab.com/dpinsen/posts/104753605337195360

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Dave Pinsen


    Violating their rules against abuse and harassment.
     
    Ah, I see specifically what happened there. Tactical error on your part—instead of merely subtweeting her you tagged her @ twice (once in the original comment, once with the milk). Whoops.

    Anyway, I watched her sad face “milkies” (LOL) video. Milana Vayntrub is quite the little actress. Here she is in State Department propaganda pulling all kinds of pained, empathetic faces (dry crocodile tears) as she contradicts herself with some ethnically stereotypical double-talk:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E_6bbmxU0U

    0:10

    My family came to America in 1989 from the Soviet Union [Tashkent] to escape religious prosecution [sic] and we settled in Los Angeles.
     
    1:05

    I learned that my community is actually the world. And that the people that you think are so different from you are actually just people that you haven’t met yet because when you do meet them you realize that we’re all pretty much the same …
     
    Oh, so Uzbeks are pretty cool, then? Maybe just misunderstood? Why, again, did her family leave?

    … We all come from the same ape people. We all are trying to avoid pain, trying to purse love and pleasure, and trying to be safe.
     
    LOL, channeling Shylock there. Also: “Trying to be safe.” Fewer imported rapists and killers might make things safer, I dunno.

    2:08

    … how lucky we are to not have to think about our safety. To wake up and start complaining about traffic or taxes or how lucky we are to have our thoughts be consumed by [mocking voice] “maybe this person doesn’t like me” or “this YouTube video is offensive” — so many of them are lucky problems.
     
    2016 phony Milana to 2020 phony Milana: “OMG you’re complaining about your famous “milkies” ? Um, First World problems …”

    3:09

    So there’s really not an excuse, besides fear of the unknown. And the unknown is — is just like us.
     
    For Milana’s family to become refugees, there must be something pretty bad about Uzbeks. Or bad about the Vayntrub tribe. Hmm. Either way, Milana’s family’s flight doesn’t bode well for the fiction that meeting other people reveals we’re “all pretty much the same”. It seems the Vayntrub family was acquainted with their Uzbek (or Russian?) “prosecutors” and decided to haul ass.

    Replies: @J.Ross

  39. @Achmed E. Newman
    ... and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained... already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars ... spent that money, dayum ...

    Replies: @Eric416, @Kronos, @AnotherDad

    … and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained… already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars … spent that money, dayum …

    It certainly was not “for nothing”.

    It was yet another–now with video!–blood libel against flyover white gentiles, all part of the propaganda for why we should not be allowed to have or control or live as we please in the nation our ancestors built

    .. just punishment, of course, for the crime of letting the Jews come here to this safe refuge and middle man securely in a huge, rich nation; for teaming up with the Brits and Soviet Union to destroy Nazi Germany and end the holocaust. Can’t really be for the “Restricted” Country Clubs. Maybe it’s “just because”.

    I swear, as God is my witness … i have never baked my brownies with the blood of black bodies.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @AnotherDad

    That was said in jest, A.D. I was not the guy stealing sneakers and electronics. I will say this: I think most of the black thug rioters are out for destruction and loot not really for any ideology other than "whitey screwed me over - that's what my daddy in prison say". It's the antifa Commies that worry me more, as they are getting more organized and even bolder than in Charlottesville, Virginia 3 years ago. Their ideology is destruction of all traditional society.

    There is a symbiotic relationship between the black thugs and the antifa Commies (many having driven in from out of state as organized by whom?) The black thugs appreciate the help from the antifa in breaking into the stores, so they can loot more easily, and the antifa appreciate their help in the destruction in return.

    What they have in common is that both groups don't spend much time creating, designing, or building things. That makes physical destruction come easily for them.

    Replies: @Rob McX

    , @Redneck farmer
    @AnotherDad

    Point of order! The Worst Thing In History was planned and executed only after Germany declared war on the US. Contrary to what certain history lessons say or at least imply.

  40. @Hypnotoad666
    @D. K.


    The blood sample was drawn in the E.R., at about 9 p.m. C.D.T., on Memorial Day, May 25, 2020— i.e., about twenty-five minutes before Floyd was pronounced dead. Mr. Moorhead’s lede is factually incorrect.
     
    That's another lie they told us repeatedly -- that Floyd died "in front of us" as Chauvin callously kept him from breathing for the infamous "8 minutes and 15 seconds." Floyd died about an hour later from his overdose and not from asphyxiation.

    Everything about this was a lie from the beginning, including delaying release of the toxicology report; manipulating the cause of death finding; hiding the body-cam footage; promoting a fake "second autopsy;" rushing out with bogus indictments. You can't believe anything when Democrats and the MSM are involved.

    And all this for the evil purpose of promoting riots and burning cities. These people are beyond despicable.

    Replies: @PseudoNhymm, @D. K.

    There’s a difference between dying and being pronounced dead. The latter can happen long after the former. Watch the video of Floyd’s ambulance ride. He was getting CPR by machine. His heart stopped on the pavement and didn’t restart. That’s pretty dead

    • Thanks: ic1000, dimples
    • Replies: @Jane Plain
    @PseudoNhymm

    He was alive in the hospital.

  41. anon[192] • Disclaimer says:

    So if George Floyd died of an overdose, and if this was publicly available knowledge all along, then in theory, all the media outlets that referred to Derek Chauvin as the “killer” of George Floyd should be on the hook for libel, shouldn’t they?

    I mean, I know they won’t be in the real world, but it’s still nice to think about him suing all of these papers and putting them out of business.

    • Replies: @Gordo
    @anon


    So if George Floyd died of an overdose, and if this was publicly available knowledge all along, then in theory, all the media outlets that referred to Derek Chauvin as the “killer” of George Floyd should be on the hook for libel, shouldn’t they?

    I mean, I know they won’t be in the real world, but it’s still nice to think about him suing all of these papers and putting them out of business.

     

    I think Chauvin is in with a good shout for libel damages, perhaps really big ones, perhaps Lin Wood could do the business as he did for young Mister Sandman

    Chauvin should divorce his coloured wife who left him after he was fired to make sure he doesn't have to share the loot.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  42. Between the fentanyl and the inherited epigenetic damage, he never really had a chance.

  43. @Hockamaw
    Sure St. George may have died of a drug overdose, but we all had a fun time and that’s what counts. Maybe the real systemic racism is the friends we made along the way.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    Sure St. George may have died of a drug overdose, but we all had a fun time and that’s what counts. Maybe the real systemic racism is the friends we made along the way.

    Someday we’ll look back and have a good laugh: “Hey, remember that time everyone lied to us and the whole country burned down cuz a junkie overdosed. Good times, man.”

    It was almost as funny as that Gavrilo Princip prank.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Hypnotoad666

    Winner in a magazine competition for unlikely newspaper headlines:

    Franz Ferdinand Found Alive; World War I a Mistake

    Replies: @Gordo

  44. Steve, any thoughts on Jerry Falwell, Jr.?

    Keep talking about cucks, and eventually a literal one will show up. But this is a familiar story:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_James_Hargis#Scandal

  45. Yes, I think that it is clear that Floyd died of an overdose. He was in such medical distress that they called the ambulance before anyone touched him. He was complaining about breathing and appeared delirious. The autopsy showed no neck injury that would explain death.

  46. @obwandiyag
    You're behind the times. Now the cops shot Jacob Blake with 7 shots in the back. Explain to me how taking fentanyl caused 7 shots to enter Jacob Blake's back. I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody. It is outrageous that some people get outraged by this traditional, harmless method of custody-taking. Jacob Blake, being a drug addict and a convicted felon, deserved to be shot 7 times in the back, actually. And his children deserved to see it.The little convicted felon drug addicts. Because . . . reasons.

    Replies: @anon, @Twinkie, @JimDandy, @AfghanistanBananaStand, @ic1000, @Brutusale

    I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody.

    You’re really dumb, and nobody’s buying it.

    No offense.

  47. @Hypnotoad666
    @D. K.


    The blood sample was drawn in the E.R., at about 9 p.m. C.D.T., on Memorial Day, May 25, 2020— i.e., about twenty-five minutes before Floyd was pronounced dead. Mr. Moorhead’s lede is factually incorrect.
     
    That's another lie they told us repeatedly -- that Floyd died "in front of us" as Chauvin callously kept him from breathing for the infamous "8 minutes and 15 seconds." Floyd died about an hour later from his overdose and not from asphyxiation.

    Everything about this was a lie from the beginning, including delaying release of the toxicology report; manipulating the cause of death finding; hiding the body-cam footage; promoting a fake "second autopsy;" rushing out with bogus indictments. You can't believe anything when Democrats and the MSM are involved.

    And all this for the evil purpose of promoting riots and burning cities. These people are beyond despicable.

    Replies: @PseudoNhymm, @D. K.

    From Wikipedia.org’s scrupulously factual entry on the “Killing of George Floyd”:

    ***

    At 8:27 pm, a Hennepin County ambulance arrived.[7]:5:56[11]:7:11 Shortly thereafter, a young relative of the owner of Cup Foods attempted to intervene, but was pushed back by Thao.[7]:6:03 Emergency medical technicians checked Floyd’s pulse.[11]:7:17 Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd’s neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless.[11]:7:21 Prosecutors said that Chauvin’s knee was on Floyd’s neck for seven minutes and forty-six seconds.[a][7]:6:27[11]:7:28[1]

    Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[70] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[7]:6:35[11]:7:43[1] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[7]:6:35[11]:7:43[1] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[7]:6:56[11]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd’s condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[11]:7:56[71] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[11]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[7]:6:56

    Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 at the Hennepin County Medical Center emergency room.[7]:7:12[11]:8:28[1][72]

    ***

    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_George_Floyd#Medical_response_and_death ]

    So, the policemen, including Officer Chauvin, released their restraint on Floyd at approximately 8:28 p.m. C.D.T.— approximately 57 minutes before he was pronounced dead— and Floyd then went into cardiac arrest in the ambulance, en route to the E.R., a few to several minutes after being driven away from the scene of the crimes (his, not the policemen’s!).

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @D. K.

    Going into cardiac arrest might mean in cardiac arrest in this case. Don't put too much weight on those words.

  48. @AnotherDad
    @Achmed E. Newman


    … and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained… already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars … spent that money, dayum …
     
    It certainly was not "for nothing".

    It was yet another--now with video!--blood libel against flyover white gentiles, all part of the propaganda for why we should not be allowed to have or control or live as we please in the nation our ancestors built

    .. just punishment, of course, for the crime of letting the Jews come here to this safe refuge and middle man securely in a huge, rich nation; for teaming up with the Brits and Soviet Union to destroy Nazi Germany and end the holocaust. Can't really be for the "Restricted" Country Clubs. Maybe it's "just because".

    I swear, as God is my witness ... i have never baked my brownies with the blood of black bodies.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Redneck farmer

    That was said in jest, A.D. I was not the guy stealing sneakers and electronics. I will say this: I think most of the black thug rioters are out for destruction and loot not really for any ideology other than “whitey screwed me over – that’s what my daddy in prison say”. It’s the antifa Commies that worry me more, as they are getting more organized and even bolder than in Charlottesville, Virginia 3 years ago. Their ideology is destruction of all traditional society.

    There is a symbiotic relationship between the black thugs and the antifa Commies (many having driven in from out of state as organized by whom?) The black thugs appreciate the help from the antifa in breaking into the stores, so they can loot more easily, and the antifa appreciate their help in the destruction in return.

    What they have in common is that both groups don’t spend much time creating, designing, or building things. That makes physical destruction come easily for them.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Achmed E. Newman


    There is a symbiotic relationship between the black thugs and the antifa Commies (many having driven in from out of state as organized by whom?) The black thugs appreciate the help from the antifa in breaking into the stores, so they can loot more easily, and the antifa appreciate their help in the destruction in return.
     
    Yes, blacks and antifa play mutually complementary roles. Anifa are smart enough to co-ordinate the riots and know a bit about how to handle confrontations with the police and vigilantes. The blacks provide the raw muscle. Probably each side needs the other.
  49. @gregor
    @Achmed E. Newman

    They are essentially saying, “We really want to string these guys up but the damn evidence is getting in the way!”

    It might be getting to the point where we will need a term for white guys who get railroaded in cases like this.

    “Reverse OJ’d”
    “Pale-roaded”

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @AnotherDad, @Harry Baldwin

    I like “pale-roaded”.

  50. @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    just adore Melania and support Trump. I have had tears in my eyes listening to the stories of the RP Convention. I was so proud and moved by Tiffany Trump's speech. She looked so confident and ready to take things on as she is a young law graduate. I applaud Marla ( I met her, decades ago, duh) for raising such an incredibly talented, gifted, poised, and strong woman - she is a Shield Maiden!

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Nick Fuentes with a different take.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Dave Pinsen

    weak, no balls guy. I hate these un-American assholes! I moved here in 1968...prosperity followed. My family left Brooklyn to be closer to VA. My family got more properous. I hate all of you anti-Steve- guys, tonight, you are all so boring and tired and flaccid. At some point, you guys need to have ideas.

    I so hate all of you who are anti-American. I hope you have bad luck.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    , @Anonymousse
    @Dave Pinsen

    I like Fuentes and I agree, but all this [homosexual feces] might be what’s needed right now for our debased electorate.

    Trump didn’t come from nowhere and defeat both party establishments soundly being bad at politics. It’s looking increasingly likely he’s going to do it AGAIN basically in the face of both parties, the deep state, intelligence agencies, the WHO, the media, hollywood, global economic sabotage, hysterical karens, all pro sports, Richard Spencer, TRS wignats, leftist paramilitaries, China... and even Taylor Swift. Whatever else can be said about the guy, that’s absolutely remarkable.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @JimDandy, @dimples

    , @AnotherDad
    @Dave Pinsen


    Night #2 of the RNC:
    -Diversity Prayer for a criminal rapist at the center of Kenosha riots
    -Criminal bank robber pardoned
    -Naturalization ceremony for future Democrats
    -Neocon Secretary of State live from Israel
     
    I sure, it is possible for me to be more disgusted with the Republican party's cucks ... i'm just baffled as to how.

    What is wrong with these people? And why aren't they voting for Democrats?

    And do they think this works? Even with women? Wouldn't the women whose votes they actually have a shot a getting be more turned on by a display of male character and dominance. For instance, telling some hard truths about black criminals and policing; declaring that the rule-of-law is part of the bedrock of our civilization and will be upheld where Republicans are elected, while electing Democrats means chaos and disorder; "elect us and we'll kick ass and clean garbage off your streets".
  51. Anonymous[211] • Disclaimer says:

    Hold your horses, everybody. The document cited does not say what the headline and news article say it does.

    Crucially, nowhere does it say this:

    A summary of a conversation between Amy Sweasy, a Hennepin County Attorney, and Dr. Andrew Baker, the chief medical examiner for the county, reveals that the former would conclude George Floyd died of a drug overdose if there were no other contributing factors.

  52. Maybe Chauvin was a Russian agent and injected that fentanyl into Floyd, to make it look like an overdose death. Time for a new Russia Investigation if you ask me.

  53. Now, now. Everyone overreacts sometimes. Even Black Lives Matter.

    As long as they say they’re sorry…

  54. @jb
    Some guy in a YouTube video I can't find now argued that while yes, Floyd's fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range, with some deaths occurring at a much lower level than Floyd's and others at a much higher level. The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn't as useful as it might seem. What you need to know instead is whether Floyd was exhibiting the symptoms of an overdose (especially "nodding off"). The claim was that the various videos did not show him exhibiting these symptoms, and therefore he probably was not overdosing.

    While the guy in the video was clearly a standard issue liberal, I think he made a fair point. It would be quite remarkable if Floyd's dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence! I'd say it's much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    Replies: @Anonymousse, @Lot, @bomag, @JimDandy, @anon, @ic1000

    It would be quite remarkable if Floyd’s dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence!

    I’ve said this before and I’ll probably say it again, but your neck is not a weakspot that anyone can hit for massive damage. ACTUALLY choking someone to unconsciousness takes specific pressure in specific places, it does not occur very easily or accidentally. A knee across the BACK and on one SIDE of your neck where thick muscles, bones, and tendons are will NOT kill you. You might get really sore and want to see a chiropractor, but you will remain completely conscious. A real choke compresses the front of the neck (air) or the sides towards the front on both sides (blood).

    That’s WHY that knee restraint is a thing in the first place. It’s not dangerous. I know it looks scary, but the human neck is designed to be strong and resilient (like the rest of us). Plenty of people are caught in actual chokes even by professionals and hold out for minutes on end, if the choke technique is not correctly applied with pressure in the right place – it doesn’t actually work.

    Choking people is hard and Chauvin did NOT choke anyone. The medical evidence was clear but it’s also plain to anyone watching the video with experience in this stuff

    This guy got fired for attempting to dent the narrative with applicable expertise but couch potatoes and social justice types completely failed to understand his point anyway

    https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/not-dead-yet-school-district-investigates-wrestling-coachs-george-floyd-post/T4UCHL2R6JHR5DNQCZDWVLPL2M/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anonymousse


    A real choke compresses the front of the neck (air) or the sides towards the front on both sides (blood).
     
    Are you sure Chauvin wasn’t compressing one of the sides toward the front where blood flows?

    Replies: @GeraldB

    , @jb
    @Anonymousse

    If a knee on the neck were a guaranteed way to kill someone then of course the police wouldn't use it. But people (especially people with health issues) do occasionally die as a consequence of police pile-ons, and this includes both black people (Eric Garner) and white people (Tony Timpa, Jonathan Salcido). The question is whether that's what happened in this particular case, and to me it looks like it was. Otherwise you are arguing for an extremely implausible coincidence, based on the fact that a knee on the neck won't normally kill someone.

    I don't think that's a winning argument. I'd prefer to argue that yes, it's possible there was police misconduct, but there is no evidence to suggest that the incident had anything whatsoever to do with race. That takes the argument away from the particulars of the individual incident and focuses on a much more general and important issue, which is selective and dishonest reporting by the mainstream media on all matters concerning race.

  55. @Dave Pinsen
    @Lagertha

    Nick Fuentes with a different take.

    https://twitter.com/nickjfuentes/status/1298449251962322947?s=21

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Anonymousse, @AnotherDad

    weak, no balls guy. I hate these un-American assholes! I moved here in 1968…prosperity followed. My family left Brooklyn to be closer to VA. My family got more properous. I hate all of you anti-Steve- guys, tonight, you are all so boring and tired and flaccid. At some point, you guys need to have ideas.

    I so hate all of you who are anti-American. I hope you have bad luck.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Lagertha

    Unlike Nick, I'm fine with the RNC content if it makes women like you happy. Trump already has my vote and if he can shore up your demo by naturalizing a Star Wars Cantina quintet, so be it.

    I am curious about the ideas you allude to. What are yours?

    Replies: @Lagertha

  56. @Dave Pinsen
    @Lagertha

    Nick Fuentes with a different take.

    https://twitter.com/nickjfuentes/status/1298449251962322947?s=21

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Anonymousse, @AnotherDad

    I like Fuentes and I agree, but all this [homosexual feces] might be what’s needed right now for our debased electorate.

    Trump didn’t come from nowhere and defeat both party establishments soundly being bad at politics. It’s looking increasingly likely he’s going to do it AGAIN basically in the face of both parties, the deep state, intelligence agencies, the WHO, the media, hollywood, global economic sabotage, hysterical karens, all pro sports, Richard Spencer, TRS wignats, leftist paramilitaries, China… and even Taylor Swift. Whatever else can be said about the guy, that’s absolutely remarkable.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Anonymousse

    Yeah, a positive way to to look at it is this: Trump has the based Zoomer vote already, and this convention is about expanding the women vote. Hopefully, Lagertha’s reaction is common.

    , @JimDandy
    @Anonymousse

    Yeah, but the coalition opposing him is a writhing knot of insanity, so he has that going for him, too.

    , @dimples
    @Anonymousse

    But he hasn't won his second election yet, so it isn't remarkable. The guy who hasn't been wrong in his presidential election predictions since 1980 says he will lose. I agree, Trumpstein is toast. He hasn't done enough to rouse his deplorable followers out of their obesity induced apathy.

  57. @Lagertha
    @Dave Pinsen

    criminal rapists are what they are: criminals.

    Democrats have protected Weinstein and Epstein for decades, but, oops, their texts are on record. And, the photos don't lie - the photos are EVERYWHERE!


    Epstein and Ghislaine take down EVERYBODY who has diddled with kids. Child torture will ROCK THE WORLD! If you, yes, you, had an appetite with kid diddling, well, your days are numbered.

    Israel is not the evil country...but some of the evil people have connections to Israel. Child traffickers and kid diddlers and female slavers are our and your enemy! Wake Up!

    People who torture or mess with children and teens, must be jailed. I know adults who were victims - it never leaves them....they are tortured everyday.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    I stand up with adults who were trafficked and slaved…their experiences makes me sick. But, we all need to support these people who were enslaved for decades.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    @Lagertha

    I've never met anyone who was enslaved for decades.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    , @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    it is so sickening - it was hard for me to believe it is true!

    , @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    it is so sickening - it was hard for me to believe it is true! Slavery is alive and well at the hands of the Elite.

  58. @Bill in Glendale
    It's amazingly sad that the two rookie cops still under supervision have been charged. Does Minnesota allow a trial before a judge, if necessary, to avoid a skittish jury? Don't see any way they could be convicted if justice is served.

    Replies: @Ray Huffman, @travis

    I believe every state permits defendants to select a bench trial if desired. And the first thing they teach in law school is that if your client has a good case that’s the smart thing to do.

  59. @Dave Pinsen
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Amazing he got away with that tweet and I just got 12 hours in Twitter jail for responding to this tweet with “Of [glass of milk emoji].

    https://twitter.com/nytdaniel/status/1298379631050084356?s=21

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @AnotherDad, @El Dato

    One can only hope she’s doing a parody of a self-centered, emotional, woe-is-me actress. But I suspect not.

    Why does she think she has this nice career? Because she’s a compelling technology or financial analyst of comparative cell phone services? Certainly she must know that it’s because she’s easy on the eyes … guys don’t mind looking at her while she delivers her pitch.

    A smarter less self-involved gal would respond to guys yapping about her “milkers” with something like: “Please be respectful, and, if you must do so, refer to my breasts by their proper designation “milk jugs“.

    Of course what she should be doing is using her natural endowments to lock down a quality, decent earning guy and then put those jugs to their intended use!

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @AnotherDad

    Even in the video where she's sharing how this milk stuff is hurtful...
    she's wearing a cleavage revealing top. (most noticeable in the last 15 or so seconds when she backs a bit away from the camera and becomes disappointed with the comments and sadquits)

    TBH i understand it would be sad and annoying to deal with those commenters, but she's apparently unable to not exploit her own body for attention.

    Is there anyone stopping her from dressing like Billie Eilish or from otherwise not putting her body on display?

    Replies: @Rob McX

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @AnotherDad


    Why does she think she has this nice career? Because she’s a compelling technology or financial analyst of comparative cell phone services?
     
    Our wonderful universities actually manage to brainwash the women who take STEM degrees with this attitude.

    Great comments on that Livestream-

    "I'd leave my wife and kids for you!"

    The thirst is real!
  60. @gregor
    @Achmed E. Newman

    They are essentially saying, “We really want to string these guys up but the damn evidence is getting in the way!”

    It might be getting to the point where we will need a term for white guys who get railroaded in cases like this.

    “Reverse OJ’d”
    “Pale-roaded”

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @AnotherDad, @Harry Baldwin

    Like “pale roaded”. Thanks gregor.

  61. @D. K.
    @Hypnotoad666

    From Wikipedia.org’s scrupulously factual entry on the “Killing of George Floyd”:

    ***

    At 8:27 pm, a Hennepin County ambulance arrived.[7]:5:56[11]:7:11 Shortly thereafter, a young relative of the owner of Cup Foods attempted to intervene, but was pushed back by Thao.[7]:6:03 Emergency medical technicians checked Floyd's pulse.[11]:7:17 Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless.[11]:7:21 Prosecutors said that Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck for seven minutes and forty-six seconds.[a][7]:6:27[11]:7:28[1]

    Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[70] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[7]:6:35[11]:7:43[1] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[7]:6:35[11]:7:43[1] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[7]:6:56[11]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[11]:7:56[71] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[11]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[7]:6:56

    Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 at the Hennepin County Medical Center emergency room.[7]:7:12[11]:8:28[1][72]

    ***

    [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_George_Floyd#Medical_response_and_death ]

    So, the policemen, including Officer Chauvin, released their restraint on Floyd at approximately 8:28 p.m. C.D.T.— approximately 57 minutes before he was pronounced dead— and Floyd then went into cardiac arrest in the ambulance, en route to the E.R., a few to several minutes after being driven away from the scene of the crimes (his, not the policemen’s!).

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Going into cardiac arrest might mean in cardiac arrest in this case. Don’t put too much weight on those words.

    • Agree: ThurstonBT
  62. @Dave Pinsen
    @Lagertha

    Nick Fuentes with a different take.

    https://twitter.com/nickjfuentes/status/1298449251962322947?s=21

    Replies: @Lagertha, @Anonymousse, @AnotherDad

    Night #2 of the RNC:
    -Diversity Prayer for a criminal rapist at the center of Kenosha riots
    -Criminal bank robber pardoned
    -Naturalization ceremony for future Democrats
    -Neocon Secretary of State live from Israel

    I sure, it is possible for me to be more disgusted with the Republican party’s cucks … i’m just baffled as to how.

    What is wrong with these people? And why aren’t they voting for Democrats?

    And do they think this works? Even with women? Wouldn’t the women whose votes they actually have a shot a getting be more turned on by a display of male character and dominance. For instance, telling some hard truths about black criminals and policing; declaring that the rule-of-law is part of the bedrock of our civilization and will be upheld where Republicans are elected, while electing Democrats means chaos and disorder; “elect us and we’ll kick ass and clean garbage off your streets”.

  63. @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco
    It is notable that the hospital medical staff were able to take his blood samples before he died. He arrived at the hospital 15 minutes after the paramedics loaded him into the ambulance , thus he passed away 45 minutes or so after the officers stopped kneeling on him.

    There is much in the medical journals which demonstrate the average fentanyl levels for drug addicts is 11 ng/ml. So his of is a typical fatal level of fentanyl in his blood...not sure how the speed interfere with the opioids. If he was a white guy this would just be another junkie death. Not clear how big of a junkie he was. Must have been a regular user to have been able to walk and talk with so much fentanyl in his blood. Was enough to fentanyl in his blood to kill 5 adult males.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Redman

    He took the fentanyl while struggling in the car. That’s what the defense team is alleging. And what I said from day 1 after seeing the video where Floyd tried to drop a white baggie, but then picked it up again. Not sure why others haven’t discussed this.

  64. @Hypnotoad666
    @Hockamaw


    Sure St. George may have died of a drug overdose, but we all had a fun time and that’s what counts. Maybe the real systemic racism is the friends we made along the way.
     
    Someday we'll look back and have a good laugh: "Hey, remember that time everyone lied to us and the whole country burned down cuz a junkie overdosed. Good times, man."

    It was almost as funny as that Gavrilo Princip prank.

    Replies: @Rob McX

    Winner in a magazine competition for unlikely newspaper headlines:

    Franz Ferdinand Found Alive; World War I a Mistake

    • LOL: Twinkie, ThurstonBT
    • Replies: @Gordo
    @Rob McX

    It was an Australian newspaper in the 1920s I think, but can't find the image.

  65. @Anonymousse
    @Dave Pinsen

    I like Fuentes and I agree, but all this [homosexual feces] might be what’s needed right now for our debased electorate.

    Trump didn’t come from nowhere and defeat both party establishments soundly being bad at politics. It’s looking increasingly likely he’s going to do it AGAIN basically in the face of both parties, the deep state, intelligence agencies, the WHO, the media, hollywood, global economic sabotage, hysterical karens, all pro sports, Richard Spencer, TRS wignats, leftist paramilitaries, China... and even Taylor Swift. Whatever else can be said about the guy, that’s absolutely remarkable.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @JimDandy, @dimples

    Yeah, a positive way to to look at it is this: Trump has the based Zoomer vote already, and this convention is about expanding the women vote. Hopefully, Lagertha’s reaction is common.

  66. @obwandiyag
    You're behind the times. Now the cops shot Jacob Blake with 7 shots in the back. Explain to me how taking fentanyl caused 7 shots to enter Jacob Blake's back. I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody. It is outrageous that some people get outraged by this traditional, harmless method of custody-taking. Jacob Blake, being a drug addict and a convicted felon, deserved to be shot 7 times in the back, actually. And his children deserved to see it.The little convicted felon drug addicts. Because . . . reasons.

    Replies: @anon, @Twinkie, @JimDandy, @AfghanistanBananaStand, @ic1000, @Brutusale

    Don’t fight with cops (while allegedly carrying a knife) and then try to reach for “something” in your car.

    It only takes a split second for someone who has or reaches for a gun to turn around at shoot at others. Are you suggesting that police officers should only be allowed to shoot when the violent suspect turns around and points a gun at them? That’s asking cops to get shot.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @Twinkie

    The cops deserve it, just like your cousins who interfered with shoplifters in their ghetto stores did, back before they were able to afford stores in white areas

  67. @jb
    Some guy in a YouTube video I can't find now argued that while yes, Floyd's fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range, with some deaths occurring at a much lower level than Floyd's and others at a much higher level. The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn't as useful as it might seem. What you need to know instead is whether Floyd was exhibiting the symptoms of an overdose (especially "nodding off"). The claim was that the various videos did not show him exhibiting these symptoms, and therefore he probably was not overdosing.

    While the guy in the video was clearly a standard issue liberal, I think he made a fair point. It would be quite remarkable if Floyd's dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence! I'd say it's much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    Replies: @Anonymousse, @Lot, @bomag, @JimDandy, @anon, @ic1000

    “The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn’t as useful as it might seem.”

    No conclusive evidence of heroin use in his blood, no track marks from IV drug use. He also did not have the build of a junkie.

    “tolerant of doses that would kill new users”

    The dose of fentanyl used in cancer patients who are already highly tolerant of opiates is at most 3, and Floyd was at 11.

    The only way that level doesn’t kill Floyd is he was a very heavy user. And there’s zero evidence of this in the autopsy.

    He most likely ingested what he thought was an oxycodone pill, but was a chinese fake made with too much fentanyl. This is, by the way, exactly how Prince died.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Lot

    He might have taken more Fentanyl than he normally would because he did not want to get caught with the drug, Wasn't he on probation too?

    Replies: @Lot

    , @jb
    @Lot

    According to the video I was referencing, deaths have been recorded at dosages as low as 3, and as high as 111. (Can't guarantee that last number, but it was something over 100). If that's true (and the guy in the video did strike me as competent to look up numbers), you definitely can't rule out the possibility that Floyd might have been able tolerate 11. So you need to focus on symptoms and behavior rather than just reading numbers out of a toxicology report.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @anon
    @Lot

    So it was the chinks wot done it! They killed poor George!

  68. @Anonymous
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco


    It is notable that the hospital medical staff were able to take his blood samples before he died.
     
    How do you know the blood samples were taken prior to his death, and not after?

    So his of is a typical fatal level of fentanyl in his blood
     
    What do you mean by this sentence? It seems garbled.

    Replies: @bruce county, @travis

    How do you know the blood samples were taken prior to his death, and not after?

    From what my ex has told me and how I understood her. (she is an RN of 30 years). Blood samples are taken immediately in most trauma cases to do a review of blood content before administering meds and or anesthesia should it be needed prior to surgery. Not all work ups for blood are for discovery of drugs but the sample is there if needed for police investigation. Only if the police request such. And that is only on police assumption that alcohol or drugs are a factor.
    If a patient is unconscious they do not need permission to draw a sample upon police request.
    Its a matter of chain of possession from that point on.
    Her experience was mostly for impaired drivers cases where a sample was drawn but the same procedure was applied if drugs were suspected.

  69. I am not a doctor or a pharmacologist, but I have seen people pass away while under the influence of large doses of opioid, I’ve been given opioids in an ER, and I have to say that, as commenter SimpleSong pointed out in the links below, Floyd was not acting like someone under the influence of massive opioid dose. In addition to reducing pain, opioids also reduce anxiety and induce a feeling of well-being. Floyd looked like he was having a panic attack and maybe, either as a result or cause of that, some other cardiopulmonary issue.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/floyd-bodycam-footage-finally-leaked/#comment-4077247
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/floyd-bodycam-footage-finally-leaked/#comment-4076230

    I’m not sure what caused his death, but I am 100% sure it was not the knee on his neck and 80% sure it was not from cops kneeling on his back.

    But I would be wary of endorsing the fentanyl explanation unless I saw some other evidence that fentanyl causes agitation in situations similar to Floyd’s.

    Other drugs, like benzos and propofol are known to cause paradoxical agitation, but this is very rare and even more rare if it happens at all with opioids. From an HBD perspective, some SNPs have been identified that make people immune to the pain-inhibiting effects of opioids, but we don’t know Floyd’s genetics.

    I have looked for evidence of panic-induced cardiac arrest, but that doesn’t seem to be a thing. It’s confusing to look up because anxiety can cause cardiac issues like stress-induced cardiomyopathy and so article headlines are sometimes confusing. However, panic causing the heart to stop isn’t a thing. Indeed, adrenaline is given to patients who are experiencing cardiac arrest in the course of resuscitation.

    If fentanyl is the cause, here is my theory: Floyd knew he was in trouble vis-a-vis the drugs and the panic from this knowledge offset the opioid effects temporarily. He resisted the sedative effects of opioids as long as he could but eventually gave in, which is why we see him transition from awake to passed out relatively quickly after he says he’s through. However, I stress this is a just-so story.

    The autopsy rules out pulmonary embolisms or classic myocardial infarctions (despite his narrowed arteries) unless it was done incompetently.

    It is difficult to point to a clear cause of death, which is why it is so easy to fall back on the 2nd autopsy’s conclusions (compression), although I think these will be shown to be implausible once the officers’ body cam footage is released.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Chrisnonymous

    If you haven't already, take a look at some of the literature on "Excited Delerium" Syndrome. It's an observed phenomenon in which intoxicated people get into a really manic state struggling against restraint and then suddenly crash with cardiopulmonary failure.

    One of the major symptoms is frothing at the mouth, which everyone on the scene commented that Floyd was doing.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  70. @Anon
    Well, I noticed that after the first autopsy they arrested the knee-cop, but after the second autopsy by the family’s team came out, they rushed to arrest a couple of more cops: Since neither autopsy showed esophogal crushing (which in any event should not happen during a properly executed knee hold), obviously no breathing problem could come from that (I think they were counting on claiming that the knee somehow cut off blood in a way that would not cause unconsciousness, but might reduce oxygen?).

    The second autopsy explicitly downplayed the knee’s contribution and went with a cummulative diaphraghm/lung expansion hindrance theory, which required the entire restraining team to be arrested, since no single party’s action would have caused death.

    So even in the absense of the tox report, I thought that with a proper defense the cops would have better than even odds of getting off.

    If they get off, boy is there going to be rioting. If I were in retail I’d switch to an online business model right now. If I lived in a suburb I’d buy guns and ammo, organize with neighbors to convert the street to an impromptu gated community with barricades, and start a baseball team on your block, complete with several dozen bats.

    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere. Mobs are going to the houses of public officials and police officers, and nothing is really done about it. If you vote not guilty, I could see a woke fellow juror ratting you out and your residence being doxxed and burned down with you and your family in it. I could see employers firing jurors who are outed as “non guiltyers." This could all be something that jurors absorb by osmosis from the current zeitgeist, not by direct threat.

    Replies: @gregor, @Pestarz, @Kronos, @lysias, @ThurstonBT

    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere.

    That’s been a continuous fear since the Rodney King riots. When those cops got acquitted the riots caused substantial damage. That’s going to be on everyone’s mind in the court case.

    After three days of arson and looting some 3,767 buildings were affected and damaged.[182][183] and property damage was estimated at more than $1 billion.[45][184][185]

    -Wikipedia

    Keep in mind these new riots already occurred before the case even started. So maybe a bunch of steam has already been released? (Who am I kidding? Anyone owning property there is more screwed than a Power-drill competition.)

  71. Feelings don’t care about facts. All officers will be convicted.

    • Agree: JMcG
  72. @Daniel H
    @Joe Magarac

    There will be charges and a trial no matter what. I will not try to predict the outcome.

    The outcome? Acquittal or conviction? There will be riots no matter what.

    Replies: @bomag

    There will be riots no matter what.

    Yes, the charges will be too soft; the sentence too lenient; etc.

    The DA might string it out forever; letting it expire for lack of a speedy trial.

  73. @Dave Pinsen
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Violating their rules against abuse and harassment.

    Screen cap of their email here:

    https://gab.com/dpinsen/posts/104753605337195360

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Violating their rules against abuse and harassment.

    Ah, I see specifically what happened there. Tactical error on your part—instead of merely subtweeting her you tagged her @ twice (once in the original comment, once with the milk). Whoops.

    Anyway, I watched her sad face “milkies” (LOL) video. Milana Vayntrub is quite the little actress. Here she is in State Department propaganda pulling all kinds of pained, empathetic faces (dry crocodile tears) as she contradicts herself with some ethnically stereotypical double-talk:

    0:10

    My family came to America in 1989 from the Soviet Union [Tashkent] to escape religious prosecution [sic] and we settled in Los Angeles.

    1:05

    I learned that my community is actually the world. And that the people that you think are so different from you are actually just people that you haven’t met yet because when you do meet them you realize that we’re all pretty much the same …

    Oh, so Uzbeks are pretty cool, then? Maybe just misunderstood? Why, again, did her family leave?

    … We all come from the same ape people. We all are trying to avoid pain, trying to purse love and pleasure, and trying to be safe.

    LOL, channeling Shylock there. Also: “Trying to be safe.” Fewer imported rapists and killers might make things safer, I dunno.

    2:08

    … how lucky we are to not have to think about our safety. To wake up and start complaining about traffic or taxes or how lucky we are to have our thoughts be consumed by [mocking voice] “maybe this person doesn’t like me” or “this YouTube video is offensive” — so many of them are lucky problems.

    2016 phony Milana to 2020 phony Milana: “OMG you’re complaining about your famous “milkies” ? Um, First World problems …”

    3:09

    So there’s really not an excuse, besides fear of the unknown. And the unknown is — is just like us.

    For Milana’s family to become refugees, there must be something pretty bad about Uzbeks. Or bad about the Vayntrub tribe. Hmm. Either way, Milana’s family’s flight doesn’t bode well for the fiction that meeting other people reveals we’re “all pretty much the same”. It seems the Vayntrub family was acquainted with their Uzbek (or Russian?) “prosecutors” and decided to haul ass.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    She's probably wierdly lazy like Jan Hook who, if she had the work ethic of Joan Rivers or Bette Midler, would have been a massive phenomenon. Also being naturally beautiful and light-skinned is bad luck in the current aberrant year. Apparently after a sketch comedy troupe nobody has heard of, one commercial "series," and a stage play, she only has three to four million dollars. Meanwhile someone less pretty named Bella Thorne embraced the milkies crowd and made five times that in a week on a mostly pornographic youtube equivalent. Milana, you wanna be a star, doncha?

  74. @jb
    Some guy in a YouTube video I can't find now argued that while yes, Floyd's fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range, with some deaths occurring at a much lower level than Floyd's and others at a much higher level. The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn't as useful as it might seem. What you need to know instead is whether Floyd was exhibiting the symptoms of an overdose (especially "nodding off"). The claim was that the various videos did not show him exhibiting these symptoms, and therefore he probably was not overdosing.

    While the guy in the video was clearly a standard issue liberal, I think he made a fair point. It would be quite remarkable if Floyd's dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence! I'd say it's much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    Replies: @Anonymousse, @Lot, @bomag, @JimDandy, @anon, @ic1000

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with fentanyl.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with resisting arrest.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with a cocktail of illegal drugs.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with passing fake money.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @bomag

    Yep, all that could well be the case. And let's not forget all the rest. Like his severe medical conditions (a scary long list), and the ambulance, which lost its way and needed three times longer than it would have otherwise. And the psychological condition he was in (resulting from the drugs and his medical conditions and his enormous social stress (fear of losing his new image of the one who finally did repent... (had found Jesus and all that...).

  75. @obwandiyag
    You're behind the times. Now the cops shot Jacob Blake with 7 shots in the back. Explain to me how taking fentanyl caused 7 shots to enter Jacob Blake's back. I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody. It is outrageous that some people get outraged by this traditional, harmless method of custody-taking. Jacob Blake, being a drug addict and a convicted felon, deserved to be shot 7 times in the back, actually. And his children deserved to see it.The little convicted felon drug addicts. Because . . . reasons.

    Replies: @anon, @Twinkie, @JimDandy, @AfghanistanBananaStand, @ic1000, @Brutusale

    Yet is father says his son has eight holes in him. One of you is a fucking liar.

  76. @jb
    Some guy in a YouTube video I can't find now argued that while yes, Floyd's fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range, with some deaths occurring at a much lower level than Floyd's and others at a much higher level. The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn't as useful as it might seem. What you need to know instead is whether Floyd was exhibiting the symptoms of an overdose (especially "nodding off"). The claim was that the various videos did not show him exhibiting these symptoms, and therefore he probably was not overdosing.

    While the guy in the video was clearly a standard issue liberal, I think he made a fair point. It would be quite remarkable if Floyd's dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence! I'd say it's much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    Replies: @Anonymousse, @Lot, @bomag, @JimDandy, @anon, @ic1000

    “I’d say it’s much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.”

    HAHAHA! Despite the fact that he was freaking out and saying he couldn’t breathe even before his confrontation with the cops. And his corroded heart was twice the size of a normal person’s. And he had a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system. Still, you cling to your precious narrative.

    • Replies: @jb
    @JimDandy

    Yes, despite all those things, it's much more likely that Floyd would have made it home than that he just coincidentally died at that moment, and that his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it. The counter-narrative you are clinging to is not just unconvincing, but counterproductive, because it misses the real issue, which is that there is no evidence that Floyd's death had anything whatsoever to do with race or racism.

    The thing is, police officers are human, and sometimes they do screw up and inadvertently kill people. Sometimes those people are black (George Floyd, Eric Garner). Sometimes they are white (Tony Timpa, Jonathan Salcido). But when they're black it's splashed across the headlines and treated as an indictment of white America, while when they're white it's studiously ignored, so the public is given the false impression that things like this happen only to blacks, and therefore must be about race. When you make tendentious and speculative hand-waving arguments about a single encounter -- he was dying anyway! -- you not only make yourself look bigoted and foolish, but you draw attention away from the true problem, which is dishonest reporting by the media.

    Replies: @anon, @JimDandy, @Chrisnonymous

  77. @Anonymousse
    @Dave Pinsen

    I like Fuentes and I agree, but all this [homosexual feces] might be what’s needed right now for our debased electorate.

    Trump didn’t come from nowhere and defeat both party establishments soundly being bad at politics. It’s looking increasingly likely he’s going to do it AGAIN basically in the face of both parties, the deep state, intelligence agencies, the WHO, the media, hollywood, global economic sabotage, hysterical karens, all pro sports, Richard Spencer, TRS wignats, leftist paramilitaries, China... and even Taylor Swift. Whatever else can be said about the guy, that’s absolutely remarkable.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @JimDandy, @dimples

    Yeah, but the coalition opposing him is a writhing knot of insanity, so he has that going for him, too.

  78. “Is the criminal case in jeopardy,” and not, like, the accused?

  79. @AnotherDad
    @Dave Pinsen

    One can only hope she's doing a parody of a self-centered, emotional, woe-is-me actress. But I suspect not.


    Why does she think she has this nice career? Because she's a compelling technology or financial analyst of comparative cell phone services? Certainly she must know that it's because she's easy on the eyes ... guys don't mind looking at her while she delivers her pitch.

    A smarter less self-involved gal would respond to guys yapping about her "milkers" with something like: "Please be respectful, and, if you must do so, refer to my breasts by their proper designation "milk jugs".

    Of course what she should be doing is using her natural endowments to lock down a quality, decent earning guy and then put those jugs to their intended use!

    Replies: @vhrm, @The Wild Geese Howard

    Even in the video where she’s sharing how this milk stuff is hurtful…
    she’s wearing a cleavage revealing top. (most noticeable in the last 15 or so seconds when she backs a bit away from the camera and becomes disappointed with the comments and sadquits)

    TBH i understand it would be sad and annoying to deal with those commenters, but she’s apparently unable to not exploit her own body for attention.

    Is there anyone stopping her from dressing like Billie Eilish or from otherwise not putting her body on display?

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @vhrm


    Even in the video where she’s sharing how this milk stuff is hurtful…she’s wearing a cleavage revealing top.
     
    Kind of reminds me of the Onion headline, "Area Woman Tired Of Men Staring At Her Breast Implants".

    Replies: @Cloudbuster

  80. @Dave Pinsen
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Amazing he got away with that tweet and I just got 12 hours in Twitter jail for responding to this tweet with “Of [glass of milk emoji].

    https://twitter.com/nytdaniel/status/1298379631050084356?s=21

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican, @AnotherDad, @El Dato

    Reminder that Big Breasts are meant to be put on display for eminently hippocampal reasons and this is totally encouraged – but you are meant to behave like a non-noticing englishman with a stiff … uhh … upper lip, praising her deep intellect, emotional maturity and dedication to professionalism as well as her bravery of quietly carrying the weight of Being a Woman 24/7.

    From January:

    Those jugs:

    ‘Is it cold in Argentina?’: Belgian cycling journalist rides into sexism row over pic of female reporter

    Dat sisterhood anger:

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @El Dato



    but you are meant to behave like a non-noticing englishman with a stiff … uhh … upper lip
     
    There is another variety of Englishman who also doesn't evince interest in huge, err, "tracts of land"...

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YiPC91QUk
  81. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Dave Pinsen


    Violating their rules against abuse and harassment.
     
    Ah, I see specifically what happened there. Tactical error on your part—instead of merely subtweeting her you tagged her @ twice (once in the original comment, once with the milk). Whoops.

    Anyway, I watched her sad face “milkies” (LOL) video. Milana Vayntrub is quite the little actress. Here she is in State Department propaganda pulling all kinds of pained, empathetic faces (dry crocodile tears) as she contradicts herself with some ethnically stereotypical double-talk:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E_6bbmxU0U

    0:10

    My family came to America in 1989 from the Soviet Union [Tashkent] to escape religious prosecution [sic] and we settled in Los Angeles.
     
    1:05

    I learned that my community is actually the world. And that the people that you think are so different from you are actually just people that you haven’t met yet because when you do meet them you realize that we’re all pretty much the same …
     
    Oh, so Uzbeks are pretty cool, then? Maybe just misunderstood? Why, again, did her family leave?

    … We all come from the same ape people. We all are trying to avoid pain, trying to purse love and pleasure, and trying to be safe.
     
    LOL, channeling Shylock there. Also: “Trying to be safe.” Fewer imported rapists and killers might make things safer, I dunno.

    2:08

    … how lucky we are to not have to think about our safety. To wake up and start complaining about traffic or taxes or how lucky we are to have our thoughts be consumed by [mocking voice] “maybe this person doesn’t like me” or “this YouTube video is offensive” — so many of them are lucky problems.
     
    2016 phony Milana to 2020 phony Milana: “OMG you’re complaining about your famous “milkies” ? Um, First World problems …”

    3:09

    So there’s really not an excuse, besides fear of the unknown. And the unknown is — is just like us.
     
    For Milana’s family to become refugees, there must be something pretty bad about Uzbeks. Or bad about the Vayntrub tribe. Hmm. Either way, Milana’s family’s flight doesn’t bode well for the fiction that meeting other people reveals we’re “all pretty much the same”. It seems the Vayntrub family was acquainted with their Uzbek (or Russian?) “prosecutors” and decided to haul ass.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    She’s probably wierdly lazy like Jan Hook who, if she had the work ethic of Joan Rivers or Bette Midler, would have been a massive phenomenon. Also being naturally beautiful and light-skinned is bad luck in the current aberrant year. Apparently after a sketch comedy troupe nobody has heard of, one commercial “series,” and a stage play, she only has three to four million dollars. Meanwhile someone less pretty named Bella Thorne embraced the milkies crowd and made five times that in a week on a mostly pornographic youtube equivalent. Milana, you wanna be a star, doncha?

  82. @Twinkie
    @obwandiyag

    Don’t fight with cops (while allegedly carrying a knife) and then try to reach for “something” in your car.

    It only takes a split second for someone who has or reaches for a gun to turn around at shoot at others. Are you suggesting that police officers should only be allowed to shoot when the violent suspect turns around and points a gun at them? That’s asking cops to get shot.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer

    The cops deserve it, just like your cousins who interfered with shoplifters in their ghetto stores did, back before they were able to afford stores in white areas

  83. @AnotherDad
    @Achmed E. Newman


    … and all that rioting was for nothing. There was nothing gained… already wore out my sneakers, pawned off the jewelry and guitars … spent that money, dayum …
     
    It certainly was not "for nothing".

    It was yet another--now with video!--blood libel against flyover white gentiles, all part of the propaganda for why we should not be allowed to have or control or live as we please in the nation our ancestors built

    .. just punishment, of course, for the crime of letting the Jews come here to this safe refuge and middle man securely in a huge, rich nation; for teaming up with the Brits and Soviet Union to destroy Nazi Germany and end the holocaust. Can't really be for the "Restricted" Country Clubs. Maybe it's "just because".

    I swear, as God is my witness ... i have never baked my brownies with the blood of black bodies.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Redneck farmer

    Point of order! The Worst Thing In History was planned and executed only after Germany declared war on the US. Contrary to what certain history lessons say or at least imply.

  84. A pathologist sees dead people with Fentanyl, so I think his statement lacks qualification and specificity; the level is lethal for the average person, but not someone like Floyd who was a hardened user in all likelihood.

    Floyd’s level is in the range often found in overdoses but most overdoses of Fentanyl occur in new users. Normally someone taking Fentanyl will have experience with it, so most people with that level are old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level. For someone who was a seasoned user and had developed tolerance what Floyd died with is probably not a fatal level, and nothing about him struggling and shouting in the video suggests he was becoming comatose or his lungs were filling with fluid. I dare say this was not Floyd’s first rodeo with Fentanyl.

    Once they got him on his chest and kept him there for several minutes the Fentanyl can’t have helped but that is why the rules in Minneapolis PD are so specific that police are NOT keep a cuffed arrestee like that, but immediately put him in the recovery position. This is what Chauvin and his three stooges did not do, and so proving an assault on Floyd by Chauvin will be easy as pie for the prosecution. Felony murder is a hard charge to beat.

    • Disagree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Sean


    someone like Floyd who was a hardened user... [an] old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level.
     
    LOL. I love how you just make stuff up so your story comes out right.

    nothing about him struggling and shouting in the video suggests he was becoming comatose or his lungs were filling with fluid.
     
    Actually, the foam that was apparently coming from Floyd's mouth (which he blamed on hooping) is a possible sign of fluid in the lungs. The excessive weight of Floyd's lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs. Additionally, we cannot discount Floyd's own claim that he could not breathe that he made before he even went down on the ground. That is a strong indication that something was going wrong in his cardiopulmonary system, and fluid in the lungs is definitely one thing that would cause a sensation of being unable to breathe. (Moreover, lung tissue oxygen exchange, which is what fluid would inhibit, is not directly connected to speaking, so the fact that he could speak is not a sign that his lungs were clear of fluid.)

    the Fentanyl can’t have helped but that is why [italics mine] the rules in Minneapolis PD are so specific that police are NOT keep a cuffed arrestee like that, but immediately put him in the recovery position.
     
    That doesn't make sense. Whether respiratory depression, speedball cardiac arrest, or pulmonary edema, the effects of fentanyl are irrelevant to position. The recovery position is to prevent positional asphyxia, but as positional asphyxia is highly correlated with obesity...
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31982838/
    ...while Floyd was not overweight, and as it's not clear (a) whether or how much officer restraint contributes in any case of PA and (b) whether the officers were even placing any weight or if so how much weight in this specific case, it is questionable without further information whether a "recovery position" would have helped.

    proving an assault on Floyd by Chauvin will be easy as pie for the prosecution. Felony murder is a hard charge to beat.
     
    I can't predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court, but as far as I know, Chauvin hasn't been charged with an assault yet. I suspect it will be harder than you think. I may be wrong, but I think the Supreme Court has determined that prone restraint does not constitute assault as long as the police have a reasonable expectation that the prone restraint is preventing the arrestee from fighting back. And while I am not a lawyer in Minnesota, I wouldn't be surprised if the law treats police conducting arrests differently from other situations.

    Moreover, 2nd degree murder does not just require that a person died while a felony is being committed but that the accused caused the person to die while committing the felony. So, if the cause of death can possibly be attributed to overdose, I think a jury would have to acquit on a reasonable doubt standard.

    The 2nd degree manslaughter charge seems more likely to stick--Chauvin demonstrating negligence in not attempting CPR or even checking a pulse quickly. However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulence, in which case they will all walk. I'm not saying this will happen, but I think it is a definite possible outcome.

    Replies: @D. K., @Sean

    , @ic1000
    @Sean

    > Floyd’s level is in the range often found in overdoses but most overdoses of Fentanyl occur in new users. Normally someone taking Fentanyl will have experience with it, so most people with that level are old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level. For someone who was a seasoned user and had developed tolerance what Floyd died with is probably not a fatal level

    Comments like this from random intrawebs users need to supply credible references to rise above the level of uninformed speculation, i.e. noise.

  85. @anon
    So if George Floyd died of an overdose, and if this was publicly available knowledge all along, then in theory, all the media outlets that referred to Derek Chauvin as the "killer" of George Floyd should be on the hook for libel, shouldn't they?

    I mean, I know they won't be in the real world, but it's still nice to think about him suing all of these papers and putting them out of business.

    Replies: @Gordo

    So if George Floyd died of an overdose, and if this was publicly available knowledge all along, then in theory, all the media outlets that referred to Derek Chauvin as the “killer” of George Floyd should be on the hook for libel, shouldn’t they?

    I mean, I know they won’t be in the real world, but it’s still nice to think about him suing all of these papers and putting them out of business.

    I think Chauvin is in with a good shout for libel damages, perhaps really big ones, perhaps Lin Wood could do the business as he did for young Mister Sandman

    Chauvin should divorce his coloured wife who left him after he was fired to make sure he doesn’t have to share the loot.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Gordo

    Gordo, you are an optimist (optimists often win). - I really like the part in your analysis, when point at about the conveniance of a divorce. - But wouldn't a divorce be too late if Chauvin did make really big money? - Just asking.I mean: they were married when it happened, so - he would have to share to profit with her, no? - Ok, I'm kinda lost here, but I did like your - story! - Must be very entertaining to have a drink with ya, at times, I guess.

  86. @Rob McX
    @Hypnotoad666

    Winner in a magazine competition for unlikely newspaper headlines:

    Franz Ferdinand Found Alive; World War I a Mistake

    Replies: @Gordo

    It was an Australian newspaper in the 1920s I think, but can’t find the image.

  87. @Gordo
    @anon


    So if George Floyd died of an overdose, and if this was publicly available knowledge all along, then in theory, all the media outlets that referred to Derek Chauvin as the “killer” of George Floyd should be on the hook for libel, shouldn’t they?

    I mean, I know they won’t be in the real world, but it’s still nice to think about him suing all of these papers and putting them out of business.

     

    I think Chauvin is in with a good shout for libel damages, perhaps really big ones, perhaps Lin Wood could do the business as he did for young Mister Sandman

    Chauvin should divorce his coloured wife who left him after he was fired to make sure he doesn't have to share the loot.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Gordo, you are an optimist (optimists often win). – I really like the part in your analysis, when point at about the conveniance of a divorce. – But wouldn’t a divorce be too late if Chauvin did make really big money? – Just asking.I mean: they were married when it happened, so – he would have to share to profit with her, no? – Ok, I’m kinda lost here, but I did like your – story! – Must be very entertaining to have a drink with ya, at times, I guess.

    • Thanks: Gordo
  88. @Chrisnonymous
    I am not a doctor or a pharmacologist, but I have seen people pass away while under the influence of large doses of opioid, I've been given opioids in an ER, and I have to say that, as commenter SimpleSong pointed out in the links below, Floyd was not acting like someone under the influence of massive opioid dose. In addition to reducing pain, opioids also reduce anxiety and induce a feeling of well-being. Floyd looked like he was having a panic attack and maybe, either as a result or cause of that, some other cardiopulmonary issue.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/floyd-bodycam-footage-finally-leaked/#comment-4077247
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/floyd-bodycam-footage-finally-leaked/#comment-4076230

    I'm not sure what caused his death, but I am 100% sure it was not the knee on his neck and 80% sure it was not from cops kneeling on his back.

    But I would be wary of endorsing the fentanyl explanation unless I saw some other evidence that fentanyl causes agitation in situations similar to Floyd's.

    Other drugs, like benzos and propofol are known to cause paradoxical agitation, but this is very rare and even more rare if it happens at all with opioids. From an HBD perspective, some SNPs have been identified that make people immune to the pain-inhibiting effects of opioids, but we don't know Floyd's genetics.

    I have looked for evidence of panic-induced cardiac arrest, but that doesn't seem to be a thing. It's confusing to look up because anxiety can cause cardiac issues like stress-induced cardiomyopathy and so article headlines are sometimes confusing. However, panic causing the heart to stop isn't a thing. Indeed, adrenaline is given to patients who are experiencing cardiac arrest in the course of resuscitation.

    If fentanyl is the cause, here is my theory: Floyd knew he was in trouble vis-a-vis the drugs and the panic from this knowledge offset the opioid effects temporarily. He resisted the sedative effects of opioids as long as he could but eventually gave in, which is why we see him transition from awake to passed out relatively quickly after he says he's through. However, I stress this is a just-so story.

    The autopsy rules out pulmonary embolisms or classic myocardial infarctions (despite his narrowed arteries) unless it was done incompetently.

    It is difficult to point to a clear cause of death, which is why it is so easy to fall back on the 2nd autopsy's conclusions (compression), although I think these will be shown to be implausible once the officers' body cam footage is released.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    If you haven’t already, take a look at some of the literature on “Excited Delerium” Syndrome. It’s an observed phenomenon in which intoxicated people get into a really manic state struggling against restraint and then suddenly crash with cardiopulmonary failure.

    One of the major symptoms is frothing at the mouth, which everyone on the scene commented that Floyd was doing.

    • Agree: Dieter Kief, ThurstonBT
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Hypnotoad666

    I think that the officers in this situation may have really believed that Chauvin was exhibiting excited delirium, but I'm not sure he was. Excited delirium does not simply occur in any type of intoxication. It is associated with use of uppers like cocaine or meth or "speedball" combos of downers/uppers. Also, it sounds like people get really crazy--for example, not being able to recognize people they usually know. It is also characterized by, among other things, aggression, unusual strength, and high body temperature.

    Although Floyd was resisting arrest and could be described as acting paranoid (maybe), it's not fair to say he was aggressive. He also seemed in complete control of his (apparently limited) faculties, I see no signs of abnormal strength, and the police make no mention in the transcripts like "he's burning up" or such to suggest he had a high temperature.

    Also, excited delirium is described as extreme agitation followed by sudden collapse. I don't think that describes Floyd.

    It is true that he had traces of meth in his system, suggesting he may have been a chronic user of uppers, putting him in the right risk category. However, I think the level was quite low if I remember, suggesting he hadn't recently taken a speedball that was causing EXDS.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061757/

    I'm not trying to blame the police, but I think if the medical examiner had considered EXDS likely, he would had said so. As I said above, I think it is difficult to point to a clear cause of death.

    =================
    Break and new thought after research....

    I just read the report Steve posted above. I should have done that earlier.

    The coroner mentions pulmonary edema, which I hadn't heard of before as connected to opioids, but it is definitely a thing, and not only in drug abusers. This puts everything in a new light for me....

    Pulmonary edema is essentially when the lungs get swelled with excessive fluid. As you can imagine, this makes breathing difficult and can inhibit oxygen from being exchanged between the air and blood by the lung tissue even when adequate air can be taken into the lungs.

    The connection between opioids and pulmonary edema is not clear, according to the literature, but one possibility is that there is a direct effect of the opioid by making tissues "leaky", allowing fluid to pass from the vascular system into the lung tissue. Another possibility is that the edema is caused by adrenaline when, for example, the opioid is reversed with Narcan.

    Unfortunately, another possibility is that the edema is caused when a person with an obstructed airway tries to inhale strongly against the obstruction. (The negative pressure caused by inhaling usually draws in air, but if the airway is obstructed, it may draw in fluid from the body instead.) No doubt, this explanation will be jumped on by those wishing to blame Chauvin, although as I have said before, I think it is unlikely that Floyd's airway was obstructed for several reasons.

    The theory I think is interesting is the Narcan theory that posits that adrenaline rush following reversal of pain-inhibiting opioids causes the edema. Normally, of course, you would have to administer Narcan to get this effect (although the article below specifies that pulmonary edema has been found in opioid users who have not been administered Narcan too), but in Floyd's case, he seemed to be panicking from the time the officers approached him in his car. According to the transcripts, he had been shot by police before and was worried that he was going to get shot again--enough to cause me to have an adrenaline rush.

    The reason this pulmonary edema puts things in a new light for me is that it doesn't require the other symptoms that are absent in Floyd. For example, the fentanyl causing respiratory depression theory has the defect I mentioned in the previous comment, which is that Floyd doesn't appear to be exhibiting signs of opioid depression. Likewise, as I mentioned just above, Floyd doesn't seem to meet the definition of EXDS. However, pulmonary edema secondary to opioid use and adrenaline rush would be consistent with Floyd's circumstances, symptoms, and the timeline (panic and breathing trouble both occurring before restraint).

    As evidence of pulmonary edema, the coroner mentions that Floyd's lungs were abnormally heavy (i.e., full of fluid). Unfortunately, as Floyd was recovering from COVID, that will be a complicating factor in Chauvin's trial, I suspect. However, a benefit to Chauvin and the police is that the pre-hospital treatment for pulmonary edema is essentially just increased oxygen and use of a CPAP machine, neither of which the officers had access to--i.e., there is nothing they could have done to help Floyd, even if they had started CPR, it wouldn't have been effective.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12016-013-8373-z

    https://bcmj.org/articles/noncardiogenic-pulmonary-edema-associated-ultrapotent-opioid-overdoses

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  89. @obwandiyag
    You're behind the times. Now the cops shot Jacob Blake with 7 shots in the back. Explain to me how taking fentanyl caused 7 shots to enter Jacob Blake's back. I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody. It is outrageous that some people get outraged by this traditional, harmless method of custody-taking. Jacob Blake, being a drug addict and a convicted felon, deserved to be shot 7 times in the back, actually. And his children deserved to see it.The little convicted felon drug addicts. Because . . . reasons.

    Replies: @anon, @Twinkie, @JimDandy, @AfghanistanBananaStand, @ic1000, @Brutusale

    Yeah those cops violated every tenant of their training. Everyone knows the proper procedure is for the police to allow the detainee, after resisting arrest and ignoring warnings and commands, to reach into his vehicle to retrieve a weapon and pop off a few rounds before reacting with any force to protect themselves and citizen bystanders. NOT!!!!!
    The “traditional harmless method” is for the detainee to respond to officers questions, requests and commands in an honest, timely manner up to and including arrest. Any variance to that procedure and hopes of a “harmless” procedure quickly dissipates into embarrassment, inconvenience, discomfort, pain and even tragedy. Jacob Blake began breaking the law almost immediately after his traffic stop and his offenses escalated rapidly out of control. People who are out of control are a threat to everyone. Jacob Blake’s behavior was unpredictable. So were his intentions. The duties of those peace officers go beyond maintaining order and public safety and enforcing laws. They have a duty and a right to return safely to their lives and loved ones. Those cops couldn’t wait to see what an unlawful, belligerent suspect was reaching into his vehicle for. His obvious behavior was their only indicator. Police die in the line of duty all the time and they face it with courage and resolve. No politically correct social order or cowardly bureaucrat has a right to ask for more. NO ONE has the right to ask for more.

  90. @bomag
    @jb


    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.
     
    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with fentanyl.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with resisting arrest.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with a cocktail of illegal drugs.

    Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with passing fake money.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Yep, all that could well be the case. And let’s not forget all the rest. Like his severe medical conditions (a scary long list), and the ambulance, which lost its way and needed three times longer than it would have otherwise. And the psychological condition he was in (resulting from the drugs and his medical conditions and his enormous social stress (fear of losing his new image of the one who finally did repent… (had found Jesus and all that…).

  91. @Lot
    @jb

    "The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn’t as useful as it might seem."

    No conclusive evidence of heroin use in his blood, no track marks from IV drug use. He also did not have the build of a junkie.

    "tolerant of doses that would kill new users"

    The dose of fentanyl used in cancer patients who are already highly tolerant of opiates is at most 3, and Floyd was at 11.

    The only way that level doesn't kill Floyd is he was a very heavy user. And there's zero evidence of this in the autopsy.

    He most likely ingested what he thought was an oxycodone pill, but was a chinese fake made with too much fentanyl. This is, by the way, exactly how Prince died.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @jb, @anon

    He might have taken more Fentanyl than he normally would because he did not want to get caught with the drug, Wasn’t he on probation too?

    • Replies: @Lot
    @Dieter Kief

    I don’t think him taking drugs to avoid being caught is likely.

    He was becoming increasingly intoxicated. He drove to Cup Foods and parked his SUV on his own, but after he left the store was too panicky to drive.

    Disposing of a little bit of drugs, or simply leaving the scene before the police came, are not hard. He couldn’t do that because by that time he was incapacitated by the pill or pills he likely took about 45 minutes before the videos start.

    Further, possession of a personal amount of drugs is tolerated in big cities.

    Did you watch the video? He was completely irrational and displayed the rationality of a 2 year old or escaped mental patient.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  92. @gregor
    @Achmed E. Newman

    They are essentially saying, “We really want to string these guys up but the damn evidence is getting in the way!”

    It might be getting to the point where we will need a term for white guys who get railroaded in cases like this.

    “Reverse OJ’d”
    “Pale-roaded”

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @AnotherDad, @Harry Baldwin

    It might be getting to the point where we will need a term for white guys who get railroaded in cases like this.

    The word is lynched. BLM wants to lynch every white police officer who shoots a black. Whether it was a good shoot or a bad shoot doesn’t’t matter. All that blabbing about presumption of innocence and due process is just white man’s logic that isn’t part of their culture, and it’s inherently racist because it so often denies them the satisfaction they want. They want a lynching.

  93. @obwandiyag
    You're behind the times. Now the cops shot Jacob Blake with 7 shots in the back. Explain to me how taking fentanyl caused 7 shots to enter Jacob Blake's back. I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody. It is outrageous that some people get outraged by this traditional, harmless method of custody-taking. Jacob Blake, being a drug addict and a convicted felon, deserved to be shot 7 times in the back, actually. And his children deserved to see it.The little convicted felon drug addicts. Because . . . reasons.

    Replies: @anon, @Twinkie, @JimDandy, @AfghanistanBananaStand, @ic1000, @Brutusale

    > You’re behind the times.

    Agree. The circus has moved on. 11 ng/mL fentanyl plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl is yesterday’s news. And always was.

  94. @JimDandy
    @jb

    "I’d say it’s much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police."


    HAHAHA! Despite the fact that he was freaking out and saying he couldn't breathe even before his confrontation with the cops. And his corroded heart was twice the size of a normal person's. And he had a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system. Still, you cling to your precious narrative.

    Replies: @jb

    Yes, despite all those things, it’s much more likely that Floyd would have made it home than that he just coincidentally died at that moment, and that his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it. The counter-narrative you are clinging to is not just unconvincing, but counterproductive, because it misses the real issue, which is that there is no evidence that Floyd’s death had anything whatsoever to do with race or racism.

    The thing is, police officers are human, and sometimes they do screw up and inadvertently kill people. Sometimes those people are black (George Floyd, Eric Garner). Sometimes they are white (Tony Timpa, Jonathan Salcido). But when they’re black it’s splashed across the headlines and treated as an indictment of white America, while when they’re white it’s studiously ignored, so the public is given the false impression that things like this happen only to blacks, and therefore must be about race. When you make tendentious and speculative hand-waving arguments about a single encounter — he was dying anyway! — you not only make yourself look bigoted and foolish, but you draw attention away from the true problem, which is dishonest reporting by the media.

    • Replies: @anon
    @jb

    When you make tendentious and speculative hand-waving arguments about a single encounter — he was dying anyway! — you not only make yourself look bigoted

    The majority of what we talk about on this site makes us look "bigoted" to most people, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the truth.

    , @JimDandy
    @jb

    You're pulling these premises out of thin air, but of course your are--your narrative is all fantasy.

    Who says "he just coincidentally died at that moment,"? Certainly not me. I've theorized that he swallowed his drugs when he knew he was about to be searched by cops. This is not uncommon among scumbag drug addicts. A young rapper died at a Chicago airport not long ago under those exact circumstances.

    And who says "his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it."? Certainly not me. When police approached his car, it may have spurred him to eat his drugs. (Or "hoop" them up his rectum, as his wild rhetoric during his arrest might indicate.) When police tried to put him in a cop car, it might have frightened him. Jail isn't a pleasant place. It's the type of discomfort someone without a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system would have certainly survived. But a guy with a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system and a timebomb-heart twice the size of a normal person's might have had a harder time with that. Hard to say, when one is talking about a guy with a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system and a faulty swollen heart.

    But he specifically asked to be put on the ground after violently resisting police, so.

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @jb

    But the manner of death does matter for two reasons:

    (1) Optics and propaganda. The game on Unz Review is hopefully people reasoning things out, but the game in the wider world is people yelling emotionally-charged slogans at each other fueled by anger and hatred deriving from anecdotes they can cling to, not data.

    (2) To the extent the left has an argument, it's that Chauvin's indifference to Floyd's life is representative of the way police interact with blacks. And while the data on shootings show that there is no racial bias in shootings, there is some evidence from other data, like "manhandling" by police. I think it's likely that the racial bias in "manhandling" is legitimately explained by officers experience and intuition for situations. But it's hard to argue that when the cases you have to examine are accepted as cases of police indifference. If, instead, Chauvin thought, based on his experience, that he was not neglecting Floyd's safety but that Floyd was ODing, and if he was right, that would change the usefulness and relevance of the situation.


    t’s much more likely that Floyd would have made it home than that he just coincidentally died at that moment, and that his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it
     
    This logic is only valid as long as you are dealing with black box situations. As we learn more facts, the black box stops being the entire situation that led to the outcome and becomes " little black boxes of the gaps in our knowledge." When we get info, coincidence becomes more likely if facts seem to rule out cause-effect connections. For example, when we see that Floyd could move his head around and even lift it off the ground, this increases the likelihood of coincidence significantly vis-a-vis the black box statement that Chauvin was kneeling on Floyd's neck.
  95. @Anonymousse
    @Dave Pinsen

    I like Fuentes and I agree, but all this [homosexual feces] might be what’s needed right now for our debased electorate.

    Trump didn’t come from nowhere and defeat both party establishments soundly being bad at politics. It’s looking increasingly likely he’s going to do it AGAIN basically in the face of both parties, the deep state, intelligence agencies, the WHO, the media, hollywood, global economic sabotage, hysterical karens, all pro sports, Richard Spencer, TRS wignats, leftist paramilitaries, China... and even Taylor Swift. Whatever else can be said about the guy, that’s absolutely remarkable.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @JimDandy, @dimples

    But he hasn’t won his second election yet, so it isn’t remarkable. The guy who hasn’t been wrong in his presidential election predictions since 1980 says he will lose. I agree, Trumpstein is toast. He hasn’t done enough to rouse his deplorable followers out of their obesity induced apathy.

  96. @Anonymousse
    @jb


    It would be quite remarkable if Floyd’s dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence!
     
    I’ve said this before and I’ll probably say it again, but your neck is not a weakspot that anyone can hit for massive damage. ACTUALLY choking someone to unconsciousness takes specific pressure in specific places, it does not occur very easily or accidentally. A knee across the BACK and on one SIDE of your neck where thick muscles, bones, and tendons are will NOT kill you. You might get really sore and want to see a chiropractor, but you will remain completely conscious. A real choke compresses the front of the neck (air) or the sides towards the front on both sides (blood).

    That’s WHY that knee restraint is a thing in the first place. It’s not dangerous. I know it looks scary, but the human neck is designed to be strong and resilient (like the rest of us). Plenty of people are caught in actual chokes even by professionals and hold out for minutes on end, if the choke technique is not correctly applied with pressure in the right place - it doesn’t actually work.

    Choking people is hard and Chauvin did NOT choke anyone. The medical evidence was clear but it’s also plain to anyone watching the video with experience in this stuff

    This guy got fired for attempting to dent the narrative with applicable expertise but couch potatoes and social justice types completely failed to understand his point anyway

    https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/not-dead-yet-school-district-investigates-wrestling-coachs-george-floyd-post/T4UCHL2R6JHR5DNQCZDWVLPL2M/

    Replies: @Anonymous, @jb

    A real choke compresses the front of the neck (air) or the sides towards the front on both sides (blood).

    Are you sure Chauvin wasn’t compressing one of the sides toward the front where blood flows?

    • Replies: @GeraldB
    @Anonymous

    compressing ONE carotid artery won't do any damage. you have to compress BOTH carotid arteries to make a person lose consciousness.

    Replies: @res

  97. @PseudoNhymm
    @Hypnotoad666

    There's a difference between dying and being pronounced dead. The latter can happen long after the former. Watch the video of Floyd's ambulance ride. He was getting CPR by machine. His heart stopped on the pavement and didn't restart. That's pretty dead

    Replies: @Jane Plain

    He was alive in the hospital.

  98. Almost in every assignment students are asked to cite references that are allocated a proper mark distribution. Not every time the paper calls out for the same format, it differs from institutes, subjects, and professors. Most of the university demands Harvard referencing style therefore, it is necessary to be well-versed with few commonly used formats and Harvard style rather than relying on citation generator, automated Harvard referencing generator, or Harvard referencing tool which might result in improper references.
    harvard referencing generator

  99. anon[343] • Disclaimer says:
    @jb
    Some guy in a YouTube video I can't find now argued that while yes, Floyd's fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range, with some deaths occurring at a much lower level than Floyd's and others at a much higher level. The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn't as useful as it might seem. What you need to know instead is whether Floyd was exhibiting the symptoms of an overdose (especially "nodding off"). The claim was that the various videos did not show him exhibiting these symptoms, and therefore he probably was not overdosing.

    While the guy in the video was clearly a standard issue liberal, I think he made a fair point. It would be quite remarkable if Floyd's dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence! I'd say it's much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    Replies: @Anonymousse, @Lot, @bomag, @JimDandy, @anon, @ic1000

    It would be quite remarkable if Floyd’s dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence!

    Well, it’s more like the ten minutes he spent wreetling with the cops before that. Do you know how much a real ten-minute struggle takes it out of you even if you AREN’T on drugs? That’s why he was saying that he couldn’t breathe before he was on the ground. That’s why someone told him that, if he didn’t stop, he was going to give himself a heart attack. Which isn’t exactly what happened, but it’s pretty close

    Face it. Your friends burned down a city over a drug overdose. Own it. Be proud.

  100. anon[343] • Disclaimer says:
    @jb
    @JimDandy

    Yes, despite all those things, it's much more likely that Floyd would have made it home than that he just coincidentally died at that moment, and that his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it. The counter-narrative you are clinging to is not just unconvincing, but counterproductive, because it misses the real issue, which is that there is no evidence that Floyd's death had anything whatsoever to do with race or racism.

    The thing is, police officers are human, and sometimes they do screw up and inadvertently kill people. Sometimes those people are black (George Floyd, Eric Garner). Sometimes they are white (Tony Timpa, Jonathan Salcido). But when they're black it's splashed across the headlines and treated as an indictment of white America, while when they're white it's studiously ignored, so the public is given the false impression that things like this happen only to blacks, and therefore must be about race. When you make tendentious and speculative hand-waving arguments about a single encounter -- he was dying anyway! -- you not only make yourself look bigoted and foolish, but you draw attention away from the true problem, which is dishonest reporting by the media.

    Replies: @anon, @JimDandy, @Chrisnonymous

    When you make tendentious and speculative hand-waving arguments about a single encounter — he was dying anyway! — you not only make yourself look bigoted

    The majority of what we talk about on this site makes us look “bigoted” to most people, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s the truth.

  101. @Pestarz
    @Anon


    esophogal
     
    You're thinking tracheal (windpipe) not esophageal (foodtube), but yes it seems like this may have had more to do with drug abuse (fentanyl decreasing drive to breathe and causing pulmonary edema and thus limiting oxygen supply, while amphetamines increased cardiac demand) rather than anything the police did.
    Do note that the document says "fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances." Opioid tolerance varies wildly with patterns of use; what kills a first-time user might not even phase a chronic user.
    And yes, if all these "facts of the case," "Chief Medical Examiner's professional opinion" and "video evidence" lead to anything less than huge sentences all around there will probably be an unhappy reaction from the left and their street team.

    Replies: @Ozymandias

    Opioid tolerance varies wildly with patterns of use; what kills a first-time user might not even phase a chronic user.

    True, but in order to utilize this fact the prosecution will have to portray the “victim” as a frequent user. How is that going to play out? “Deadly levels of fentanyl wouldn’t have killed George, he was a hardcore junkie!” That’s a tough sell.

  102. @Anonymous
    @Anonymousse


    A real choke compresses the front of the neck (air) or the sides towards the front on both sides (blood).
     
    Are you sure Chauvin wasn’t compressing one of the sides toward the front where blood flows?

    Replies: @GeraldB

    compressing ONE carotid artery won’t do any damage. you have to compress BOTH carotid arteries to make a person lose consciousness.

    • Replies: @res
    @GeraldB

    Relevant detail about the redundancy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Willis

    Replies: @anon

  103. @Achmed E. Newman
    @AnotherDad

    That was said in jest, A.D. I was not the guy stealing sneakers and electronics. I will say this: I think most of the black thug rioters are out for destruction and loot not really for any ideology other than "whitey screwed me over - that's what my daddy in prison say". It's the antifa Commies that worry me more, as they are getting more organized and even bolder than in Charlottesville, Virginia 3 years ago. Their ideology is destruction of all traditional society.

    There is a symbiotic relationship between the black thugs and the antifa Commies (many having driven in from out of state as organized by whom?) The black thugs appreciate the help from the antifa in breaking into the stores, so they can loot more easily, and the antifa appreciate their help in the destruction in return.

    What they have in common is that both groups don't spend much time creating, designing, or building things. That makes physical destruction come easily for them.

    Replies: @Rob McX

    There is a symbiotic relationship between the black thugs and the antifa Commies (many having driven in from out of state as organized by whom?) The black thugs appreciate the help from the antifa in breaking into the stores, so they can loot more easily, and the antifa appreciate their help in the destruction in return.

    Yes, blacks and antifa play mutually complementary roles. Anifa are smart enough to co-ordinate the riots and know a bit about how to handle confrontations with the police and vigilantes. The blacks provide the raw muscle. Probably each side needs the other.

  104. @vhrm
    @AnotherDad

    Even in the video where she's sharing how this milk stuff is hurtful...
    she's wearing a cleavage revealing top. (most noticeable in the last 15 or so seconds when she backs a bit away from the camera and becomes disappointed with the comments and sadquits)

    TBH i understand it would be sad and annoying to deal with those commenters, but she's apparently unable to not exploit her own body for attention.

    Is there anyone stopping her from dressing like Billie Eilish or from otherwise not putting her body on display?

    Replies: @Rob McX

    Even in the video where she’s sharing how this milk stuff is hurtful…she’s wearing a cleavage revealing top.

    Kind of reminds me of the Onion headline, “Area Woman Tired Of Men Staring At Her Breast Implants”.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    @Rob McX

    Hey, show some sensitivity. She suffers from a rare condition that prevents her from fastening the top three buttons of her blouse!

  105. @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    I stand up with adults who were trafficked and slaved...their experiences makes me sick. But, we all need to support these people who were enslaved for decades.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    I’ve never met anyone who was enslaved for decades.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Cloudbuster

    I have 3 close friends. One is European - the stuff that was done to these women when they were little girls, is sickening.

    They have struggled for years with addiction and problems - they are safe & fine now, but it took them years to realize that they were worthy of life and happiness...shit, I am crying now. But, my personal job these days, is to find the Alters and messed up people who have the common: messed up family/familly rejection background.

  106. @El Dato
    @Dave Pinsen

    Reminder that Big Breasts are meant to be put on display for eminently hippocampal reasons and this is totally encouraged - but you are meant to behave like a non-noticing englishman with a stiff ... uhh ... upper lip, praising her deep intellect, emotional maturity and dedication to professionalism as well as her bravery of quietly carrying the weight of Being a Woman 24/7.

    From January:

    Those jugs:

    ‘Is it cold in Argentina?’: Belgian cycling journalist rides into sexism row over pic of female reporter

    Dat sisterhood anger:

    https://twitter.com/SophieSmith86/status/1222647803463127040

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    but you are meant to behave like a non-noticing englishman with a stiff … uhh … upper lip

    There is another variety of Englishman who also doesn’t evince interest in huge, err, “tracts of land”…

  107. @Rob McX
    @vhrm


    Even in the video where she’s sharing how this milk stuff is hurtful…she’s wearing a cleavage revealing top.
     
    Kind of reminds me of the Onion headline, "Area Woman Tired Of Men Staring At Her Breast Implants".

    Replies: @Cloudbuster

    Hey, show some sensitivity. She suffers from a rare condition that prevents her from fastening the top three buttons of her blouse!

  108. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation used the phrase “the MURDER of George Floyd by police officers” in their radio reporting a few weeks ago.

    This week, they walked it back to “the May 25 death of a Black man in Minneapolis, George Floyd, who was pinned to the street under the knee of a white police officer.”

    The legacy media tries to correct the record without having to apologize.

    • Replies: @bruce county
    @Beavertales

    The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

    Therein lies your problem. The liberal propaganda machine of Canada.
    I stopped watching CBC anything years ago.
    They hate white people.
    Their entire staff looks like they hired from every shit hole nation in Africa and the Middle East.
    Turn off you tv!.

  109. @Anonymousse
    @jb


    It would be quite remarkable if Floyd’s dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence!
     
    I’ve said this before and I’ll probably say it again, but your neck is not a weakspot that anyone can hit for massive damage. ACTUALLY choking someone to unconsciousness takes specific pressure in specific places, it does not occur very easily or accidentally. A knee across the BACK and on one SIDE of your neck where thick muscles, bones, and tendons are will NOT kill you. You might get really sore and want to see a chiropractor, but you will remain completely conscious. A real choke compresses the front of the neck (air) or the sides towards the front on both sides (blood).

    That’s WHY that knee restraint is a thing in the first place. It’s not dangerous. I know it looks scary, but the human neck is designed to be strong and resilient (like the rest of us). Plenty of people are caught in actual chokes even by professionals and hold out for minutes on end, if the choke technique is not correctly applied with pressure in the right place - it doesn’t actually work.

    Choking people is hard and Chauvin did NOT choke anyone. The medical evidence was clear but it’s also plain to anyone watching the video with experience in this stuff

    This guy got fired for attempting to dent the narrative with applicable expertise but couch potatoes and social justice types completely failed to understand his point anyway

    https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/not-dead-yet-school-district-investigates-wrestling-coachs-george-floyd-post/T4UCHL2R6JHR5DNQCZDWVLPL2M/

    Replies: @Anonymous, @jb

    If a knee on the neck were a guaranteed way to kill someone then of course the police wouldn’t use it. But people (especially people with health issues) do occasionally die as a consequence of police pile-ons, and this includes both black people (Eric Garner) and white people (Tony Timpa, Jonathan Salcido). The question is whether that’s what happened in this particular case, and to me it looks like it was. Otherwise you are arguing for an extremely implausible coincidence, based on the fact that a knee on the neck won’t normally kill someone.

    I don’t think that’s a winning argument. I’d prefer to argue that yes, it’s possible there was police misconduct, but there is no evidence to suggest that the incident had anything whatsoever to do with race. That takes the argument away from the particulars of the individual incident and focuses on a much more general and important issue, which is selective and dishonest reporting by the mainstream media on all matters concerning race.

  110. @jb
    Some guy in a YouTube video I can't find now argued that while yes, Floyd's fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range, with some deaths occurring at a much lower level than Floyd's and others at a much higher level. The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn't as useful as it might seem. What you need to know instead is whether Floyd was exhibiting the symptoms of an overdose (especially "nodding off"). The claim was that the various videos did not show him exhibiting these symptoms, and therefore he probably was not overdosing.

    While the guy in the video was clearly a standard issue liberal, I think he made a fair point. It would be quite remarkable if Floyd's dying after a police officer had been kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes was simply a random coincidence! I'd say it's much more likely that, while the fentanyl may have been an aggravating factor, Floyd would probably have made it home that night if it were not for his encounter with the police.

    Replies: @Anonymousse, @Lot, @bomag, @JimDandy, @anon, @ic1000

    > Some guy in a YouTube video I can’t find now argued that… while Floyd’s fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range

    Yes. See Lot’s reply to your comment.

    My comment #133 on a June 9th iSteve post also addressed this.

    Tolerance is probably the key factor that determines whether 11 ng/mL is a little or a lot. For many/most first-time users, it looks like enough to cause stupor and then respiratory arrest. But one hallmark of opioids is that the body adapts to regular use over a period of weeks — you need progressively more to get high, and also to achieve the (undesired) effect of respiratory arrest.

    In comment #106 on the same thread, illustrious commenter JackD linked the key 2018 paper by Olaf Drummer, “Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review.” Drummer wrote:

    Numerous publications have described fatalities associated with [fentanyl’s] misuse… Peripheral blood concentrations range from near 1 ng/mL to well over 20 ng/mL with a median somewhere between 5 and 10 ng/mL, depending on degree of tolerance and presence of other significant drugs. Doses vary significantly depending on the route of administration and degree of tolerance.

    Table 1 summarizes 7 reports’ accounts of hundreds of fentanyl overdoses. The highest was 139 ng/mL. (The table doesn’t speak to what the highest non-fatal blood level on record might be.)

    One would need the history of Floyd’s drug use to put his 11 ng/mL (plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl) in context, beyond saying, “that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it.”

    • Replies: @travis
    @ic1000

    and yet many drug addicts would die from such a high dose. Other drugs combined also have an effect. Floyd was also recovering from COVID-19 at the time of his arrest and still had the active virus detected in the hospital. He may well be another victim of COVID-19 and would have been listed as a COVID fatality if the police had gotten him in their car and taken him directly to the hospital.

    Maybe tolerance to fentanyl goes down when you are fighting this deadly coronavirus, for a middle aged, obese man with heart disease. Amazing he survived COVID for weeks , wonder if he was reducing his drug intake as he fought against the viral infection and was feeling better the day he died, thus ingested more drugs than he had in while. Tolerance will fall quickly if he was abstaining from drug use while fighting coronavirus. Nobody knows if he was a daily user of opioids , maybe they mixed some fentanyl in with his speed. Maybe he was not a regular user of fentanyl. Not sure how the medical doctor would know about his past drug use. Did they talk with his drug suppliers ? Was he a daily user ? nobody really knows. But we do know he was fighting coronavirus fro weeks.

    Could the deadly coronavirus make it more difficult to breath while overdosing on fentanyl ?????

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    , @Chrisnonymous
    @ic1000

    There are two problems with this simple "overdose" theory.

    (1) One is that the question you guys are arguing over can't be answered. There are variations in the way people respond to opioids such that you cannot predict "overdose" in Floyd's case even assuming he is a naive user.

    (2) Another is that, as I mentioned above, Floyd doesn't really look like a person in opioid-induced respiratory depression or someone in speedball-induced EXDS.

    Note that no one connected to the case (the coroner, the officers, the prosecutors, etc) has talked as if Floyd were in respiratory depression. The coroner, according to the document Steve posted, is pointing at fentanyl-induced pulmonary edema, which is different from the typical "overdose" scenario I think you have in mind.

    See the reply comment I just wrote to Hypnotoad666 for more on pulmonary edema scenario (which comment Steve hasn't as of yet approved).

    , @Sean
    @ic1000


    “that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it.”
     
    For someone who has never had alcohol, a bottle of vodka drank quickly would be enough to kill if you kept it down, but we all know those who can chug down this no problem. Normal people have no tolerance of Fentanyl, so the pathologist statement is abstract and correct, but has very little bearing on Floyd.

    The video of him resisting arrest shows someone that was high but alert and adroitly trying every trick in the book to wriggle out of an arrest, not slipping into unconsciousness. Given his known Fentanyl level at that time, it can be inferred he had built up tolerance and would not have died if he had not got kept in a position that cops are forbidden to keep cuffed arrestees in. Chaulin assaulted him and he died of it; what's to understand?

    , @Alice in Wonderland
    @ic1000

    Am I missing something here?

    All of this data is for fatalities, not surviving.

    Sure, 136ng will kill you, but so will 1 ng.

    To find the max dose one can survive, we would need to see data for blood concentrations of those who survived, not those who died.

    So, one person is thrifty and kills himself with 5ng and another is a drama king and goes for 50 ng in no way establishes that 50 ng is the minimum required to kill a drama king.

    Replies: @D. K.

  111. @jb
    @JimDandy

    Yes, despite all those things, it's much more likely that Floyd would have made it home than that he just coincidentally died at that moment, and that his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it. The counter-narrative you are clinging to is not just unconvincing, but counterproductive, because it misses the real issue, which is that there is no evidence that Floyd's death had anything whatsoever to do with race or racism.

    The thing is, police officers are human, and sometimes they do screw up and inadvertently kill people. Sometimes those people are black (George Floyd, Eric Garner). Sometimes they are white (Tony Timpa, Jonathan Salcido). But when they're black it's splashed across the headlines and treated as an indictment of white America, while when they're white it's studiously ignored, so the public is given the false impression that things like this happen only to blacks, and therefore must be about race. When you make tendentious and speculative hand-waving arguments about a single encounter -- he was dying anyway! -- you not only make yourself look bigoted and foolish, but you draw attention away from the true problem, which is dishonest reporting by the media.

    Replies: @anon, @JimDandy, @Chrisnonymous

    You’re pulling these premises out of thin air, but of course your are–your narrative is all fantasy.

    Who says “he just coincidentally died at that moment,”? Certainly not me. I’ve theorized that he swallowed his drugs when he knew he was about to be searched by cops. This is not uncommon among scumbag drug addicts. A young rapper died at a Chicago airport not long ago under those exact circumstances.

    And who says “his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it.”? Certainly not me. When police approached his car, it may have spurred him to eat his drugs. (Or “hoop” them up his rectum, as his wild rhetoric during his arrest might indicate.) When police tried to put him in a cop car, it might have frightened him. Jail isn’t a pleasant place. It’s the type of discomfort someone without a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system would have certainly survived. But a guy with a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system and a timebomb-heart twice the size of a normal person’s might have had a harder time with that. Hard to say, when one is talking about a guy with a lethal cocktail of drugs in his system and a faulty swollen heart.

    But he specifically asked to be put on the ground after violently resisting police, so.

  112. @Lot
    @jb

    "The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn’t as useful as it might seem."

    No conclusive evidence of heroin use in his blood, no track marks from IV drug use. He also did not have the build of a junkie.

    "tolerant of doses that would kill new users"

    The dose of fentanyl used in cancer patients who are already highly tolerant of opiates is at most 3, and Floyd was at 11.

    The only way that level doesn't kill Floyd is he was a very heavy user. And there's zero evidence of this in the autopsy.

    He most likely ingested what he thought was an oxycodone pill, but was a chinese fake made with too much fentanyl. This is, by the way, exactly how Prince died.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @jb, @anon

    According to the video I was referencing, deaths have been recorded at dosages as low as 3, and as high as 111. (Can’t guarantee that last number, but it was something over 100). If that’s true (and the guy in the video did strike me as competent to look up numbers), you definitely can’t rule out the possibility that Floyd might have been able tolerate 11. So you need to focus on symptoms and behavior rather than just reading numbers out of a toxicology report.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @jb


    According to the video I was referencing, deaths have been recorded at dosages as low as 3, and as high as 111. (Can’t guarantee that last number, but it was something over 100). If that’s true (and the guy in the video did strike me as competent to look up numbers), you definitely can’t rule out the possibility that Floyd might have been able tolerate 11.
     
    The data you cite says nothing about what level someone might be able to tolerate. Think again.
  113. @Bill in Glendale
    It's amazingly sad that the two rookie cops still under supervision have been charged. Does Minnesota allow a trial before a judge, if necessary, to avoid a skittish jury? Don't see any way they could be convicted if justice is served.

    Replies: @Ray Huffman, @travis

    true, and one of them was Black. Could his defense lawyers claim that his DNA was impaired epigenetically from his great great great grandmothers time as a slave ? Thus he is not responsible for holding down Floyd while he died of a drug overdose.

  114. @Hypnotoad666
    @Chrisnonymous

    If you haven't already, take a look at some of the literature on "Excited Delerium" Syndrome. It's an observed phenomenon in which intoxicated people get into a really manic state struggling against restraint and then suddenly crash with cardiopulmonary failure.

    One of the major symptoms is frothing at the mouth, which everyone on the scene commented that Floyd was doing.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    I think that the officers in this situation may have really believed that Chauvin was exhibiting excited delirium, but I’m not sure he was. Excited delirium does not simply occur in any type of intoxication. It is associated with use of uppers like cocaine or meth or “speedball” combos of downers/uppers. Also, it sounds like people get really crazy–for example, not being able to recognize people they usually know. It is also characterized by, among other things, aggression, unusual strength, and high body temperature.

    Although Floyd was resisting arrest and could be described as acting paranoid (maybe), it’s not fair to say he was aggressive. He also seemed in complete control of his (apparently limited) faculties, I see no signs of abnormal strength, and the police make no mention in the transcripts like “he’s burning up” or such to suggest he had a high temperature.

    Also, excited delirium is described as extreme agitation followed by sudden collapse. I don’t think that describes Floyd.

    It is true that he had traces of meth in his system, suggesting he may have been a chronic user of uppers, putting him in the right risk category. However, I think the level was quite low if I remember, suggesting he hadn’t recently taken a speedball that was causing EXDS.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061757/

    I’m not trying to blame the police, but I think if the medical examiner had considered EXDS likely, he would had said so. As I said above, I think it is difficult to point to a clear cause of death.

    =================
    Break and new thought after research….

    I just read the report Steve posted above. I should have done that earlier.

    The coroner mentions pulmonary edema, which I hadn’t heard of before as connected to opioids, but it is definitely a thing, and not only in drug abusers. This puts everything in a new light for me….

    Pulmonary edema is essentially when the lungs get swelled with excessive fluid. As you can imagine, this makes breathing difficult and can inhibit oxygen from being exchanged between the air and blood by the lung tissue even when adequate air can be taken into the lungs.

    The connection between opioids and pulmonary edema is not clear, according to the literature, but one possibility is that there is a direct effect of the opioid by making tissues “leaky”, allowing fluid to pass from the vascular system into the lung tissue. Another possibility is that the edema is caused by adrenaline when, for example, the opioid is reversed with Narcan.

    Unfortunately, another possibility is that the edema is caused when a person with an obstructed airway tries to inhale strongly against the obstruction. (The negative pressure caused by inhaling usually draws in air, but if the airway is obstructed, it may draw in fluid from the body instead.) No doubt, this explanation will be jumped on by those wishing to blame Chauvin, although as I have said before, I think it is unlikely that Floyd’s airway was obstructed for several reasons.

    The theory I think is interesting is the Narcan theory that posits that adrenaline rush following reversal of pain-inhibiting opioids causes the edema. Normally, of course, you would have to administer Narcan to get this effect (although the article below specifies that pulmonary edema has been found in opioid users who have not been administered Narcan too), but in Floyd’s case, he seemed to be panicking from the time the officers approached him in his car. According to the transcripts, he had been shot by police before and was worried that he was going to get shot again–enough to cause me to have an adrenaline rush.

    The reason this pulmonary edema puts things in a new light for me is that it doesn’t require the other symptoms that are absent in Floyd. For example, the fentanyl causing respiratory depression theory has the defect I mentioned in the previous comment, which is that Floyd doesn’t appear to be exhibiting signs of opioid depression. Likewise, as I mentioned just above, Floyd doesn’t seem to meet the definition of EXDS. However, pulmonary edema secondary to opioid use and adrenaline rush would be consistent with Floyd’s circumstances, symptoms, and the timeline (panic and breathing trouble both occurring before restraint).

    As evidence of pulmonary edema, the coroner mentions that Floyd’s lungs were abnormally heavy (i.e., full of fluid). Unfortunately, as Floyd was recovering from COVID, that will be a complicating factor in Chauvin’s trial, I suspect. However, a benefit to Chauvin and the police is that the pre-hospital treatment for pulmonary edema is essentially just increased oxygen and use of a CPAP machine, neither of which the officers had access to–i.e., there is nothing they could have done to help Floyd, even if they had started CPR, it wouldn’t have been effective.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12016-013-8373-z

    https://bcmj.org/articles/noncardiogenic-pulmonary-edema-associated-ultrapotent-opioid-overdoses

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Chrisnonymous

    Pulmonary edema could be it; cf. commenters Charlotte above and Pestarz). Thanks, Chrisnonymus for elaborating on it.

  115. @Anonymous
    @Hernan Pizzaro del Blanco


    It is notable that the hospital medical staff were able to take his blood samples before he died.
     
    How do you know the blood samples were taken prior to his death, and not after?

    So his of is a typical fatal level of fentanyl in his blood
     
    What do you mean by this sentence? It seems garbled.

    Replies: @bruce county, @travis

    the autopsy report indicates he was pronounced dead 30 minutes after the blood was drawn. The Autopsy report also indicates this is made the blood analysis more accurate than when blood is taken from a dead person during the autopsy. So the medical examiner states that this blood analysis was more accurate because it was taken before Floyd died.

    I assume his blood was still pumping when they took his blood 30 minuted before he was declared dead. Since i have low blood pressure , it is often hard for them to draw blood from my arm. I do wonder how the nurses were able to get blood drawn from a man without a pulse. But they somehow were able to get his blood 30 minutes before he died from the fentanyl overdose.

  116. @ic1000
    @jb

    > Some guy in a YouTube video I can’t find now argued that... while Floyd’s fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range

    Yes. See Lot's reply to your comment.

    My comment #133 on a June 9th iSteve post also addressed this.


    Tolerance is probably the key factor that determines whether 11 ng/mL is a little or a lot. For many/most first-time users, it looks like enough to cause stupor and then respiratory arrest. But one hallmark of opioids is that the body adapts to regular use over a period of weeks — you need progressively more to get high, and also to achieve the (undesired) effect of respiratory arrest.
     
    In comment #106 on the same thread, illustrious commenter JackD linked the key 2018 paper by Olaf Drummer, "Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review." Drummer wrote:

    Numerous publications have described fatalities associated with [fentanyl’s] misuse… Peripheral blood concentrations range from near 1 ng/mL to well over 20 ng/mL with a median somewhere between 5 and 10 ng/mL, depending on degree of tolerance and presence of other significant drugs. Doses vary significantly depending on the route of administration and degree of tolerance.
     
    Table 1 summarizes 7 reports' accounts of hundreds of fentanyl overdoses. The highest was 139 ng/mL. (The table doesn't speak to what the highest non-fatal blood level on record might be.)

    One would need the history of Floyd’s drug use to put his 11 ng/mL (plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl) in context, beyond saying, "that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it."

    Replies: @travis, @Chrisnonymous, @Sean, @Alice in Wonderland

    and yet many drug addicts would die from such a high dose. Other drugs combined also have an effect. Floyd was also recovering from COVID-19 at the time of his arrest and still had the active virus detected in the hospital. He may well be another victim of COVID-19 and would have been listed as a COVID fatality if the police had gotten him in their car and taken him directly to the hospital.

    Maybe tolerance to fentanyl goes down when you are fighting this deadly coronavirus, for a middle aged, obese man with heart disease. Amazing he survived COVID for weeks , wonder if he was reducing his drug intake as he fought against the viral infection and was feeling better the day he died, thus ingested more drugs than he had in while. Tolerance will fall quickly if he was abstaining from drug use while fighting coronavirus. Nobody knows if he was a daily user of opioids , maybe they mixed some fentanyl in with his speed. Maybe he was not a regular user of fentanyl. Not sure how the medical doctor would know about his past drug use. Did they talk with his drug suppliers ? Was he a daily user ? nobody really knows. But we do know he was fighting coronavirus fro weeks.

    Could the deadly coronavirus make it more difficult to breath while overdosing on fentanyl ?????

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @travis

    Why do people describe Floyd as "obese"? (Actually, I think I know--it's to fit the positional asphyxia narrative...) In the multiple photos of Floyd available online, he doesn't look overweight in any of them.

    The coroner's report says he was 6'4" and 223 lbs. That a BMI of about 27, which is mildly overweight, although in his photos he doesn't look overweight at all and has a flat stomach and small waist.

    Replies: @Mr McKenna

  117. @ic1000
    @jb

    > Some guy in a YouTube video I can’t find now argued that... while Floyd’s fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range

    Yes. See Lot's reply to your comment.

    My comment #133 on a June 9th iSteve post also addressed this.


    Tolerance is probably the key factor that determines whether 11 ng/mL is a little or a lot. For many/most first-time users, it looks like enough to cause stupor and then respiratory arrest. But one hallmark of opioids is that the body adapts to regular use over a period of weeks — you need progressively more to get high, and also to achieve the (undesired) effect of respiratory arrest.
     
    In comment #106 on the same thread, illustrious commenter JackD linked the key 2018 paper by Olaf Drummer, "Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review." Drummer wrote:

    Numerous publications have described fatalities associated with [fentanyl’s] misuse… Peripheral blood concentrations range from near 1 ng/mL to well over 20 ng/mL with a median somewhere between 5 and 10 ng/mL, depending on degree of tolerance and presence of other significant drugs. Doses vary significantly depending on the route of administration and degree of tolerance.
     
    Table 1 summarizes 7 reports' accounts of hundreds of fentanyl overdoses. The highest was 139 ng/mL. (The table doesn't speak to what the highest non-fatal blood level on record might be.)

    One would need the history of Floyd’s drug use to put his 11 ng/mL (plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl) in context, beyond saying, "that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it."

    Replies: @travis, @Chrisnonymous, @Sean, @Alice in Wonderland

    There are two problems with this simple “overdose” theory.

    (1) One is that the question you guys are arguing over can’t be answered. There are variations in the way people respond to opioids such that you cannot predict “overdose” in Floyd’s case even assuming he is a naive user.

    (2) Another is that, as I mentioned above, Floyd doesn’t really look like a person in opioid-induced respiratory depression or someone in speedball-induced EXDS.

    Note that no one connected to the case (the coroner, the officers, the prosecutors, etc) has talked as if Floyd were in respiratory depression. The coroner, according to the document Steve posted, is pointing at fentanyl-induced pulmonary edema, which is different from the typical “overdose” scenario I think you have in mind.

    See the reply comment I just wrote to Hypnotoad666 for more on pulmonary edema scenario (which comment Steve hasn’t as of yet approved).

    • Thanks: ic1000
  118. @Dieter Kief
    @Lot

    He might have taken more Fentanyl than he normally would because he did not want to get caught with the drug, Wasn't he on probation too?

    Replies: @Lot

    I don’t think him taking drugs to avoid being caught is likely.

    He was becoming increasingly intoxicated. He drove to Cup Foods and parked his SUV on his own, but after he left the store was too panicky to drive.

    Disposing of a little bit of drugs, or simply leaving the scene before the police came, are not hard. He couldn’t do that because by that time he was incapacitated by the pill or pills he likely took about 45 minutes before the videos start.

    Further, possession of a personal amount of drugs is tolerated in big cities.

    Did you watch the video? He was completely irrational and displayed the rationality of a 2 year old or escaped mental patient.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Lot


    Did you watch the video? He was completely irrational and displayed the rationality of a 2 year old or escaped mental patient.
     
    It is not irrational to not want to go to jail.
  119. @ic1000
    @jb

    > Some guy in a YouTube video I can’t find now argued that... while Floyd’s fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range

    Yes. See Lot's reply to your comment.

    My comment #133 on a June 9th iSteve post also addressed this.


    Tolerance is probably the key factor that determines whether 11 ng/mL is a little or a lot. For many/most first-time users, it looks like enough to cause stupor and then respiratory arrest. But one hallmark of opioids is that the body adapts to regular use over a period of weeks — you need progressively more to get high, and also to achieve the (undesired) effect of respiratory arrest.
     
    In comment #106 on the same thread, illustrious commenter JackD linked the key 2018 paper by Olaf Drummer, "Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review." Drummer wrote:

    Numerous publications have described fatalities associated with [fentanyl’s] misuse… Peripheral blood concentrations range from near 1 ng/mL to well over 20 ng/mL with a median somewhere between 5 and 10 ng/mL, depending on degree of tolerance and presence of other significant drugs. Doses vary significantly depending on the route of administration and degree of tolerance.
     
    Table 1 summarizes 7 reports' accounts of hundreds of fentanyl overdoses. The highest was 139 ng/mL. (The table doesn't speak to what the highest non-fatal blood level on record might be.)

    One would need the history of Floyd’s drug use to put his 11 ng/mL (plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl) in context, beyond saying, "that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it."

    Replies: @travis, @Chrisnonymous, @Sean, @Alice in Wonderland

    “that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it.”

    For someone who has never had alcohol, a bottle of vodka drank quickly would be enough to kill if you kept it down, but we all know those who can chug down this no problem. Normal people have no tolerance of Fentanyl, so the pathologist statement is abstract and correct, but has very little bearing on Floyd.

    The video of him resisting arrest shows someone that was high but alert and adroitly trying every trick in the book to wriggle out of an arrest, not slipping into unconsciousness. Given his known Fentanyl level at that time, it can be inferred he had built up tolerance and would not have died if he had not got kept in a position that cops are forbidden to keep cuffed arrestees in. Chaulin assaulted him and he died of it; what’s to understand?

  120. @obwandiyag
    You're behind the times. Now the cops shot Jacob Blake with 7 shots in the back. Explain to me how taking fentanyl caused 7 shots to enter Jacob Blake's back. I guess it was the drugs that caused his crippling and near death. The bullets were just a traditional, harmless method by which the police take people into custody. It is outrageous that some people get outraged by this traditional, harmless method of custody-taking. Jacob Blake, being a drug addict and a convicted felon, deserved to be shot 7 times in the back, actually. And his children deserved to see it.The little convicted felon drug addicts. Because . . . reasons.

    Replies: @anon, @Twinkie, @JimDandy, @AfghanistanBananaStand, @ic1000, @Brutusale

    Yeah, his children needed to see “it”. “It” may be a bit more effective than the mythical “Talk”.

    This particular “Talk”, on the other hand, may be the one for potential Jakes to heed.

  121. Cue @Loup-Bouc to write a short novel in this comments section telling us how Dr. Andrew Baker is somehow wrong about this… because reasons.

  122. @Sean
    A pathologist sees dead people with Fentanyl, so I think his statement lacks qualification and specificity; the level is lethal for the average person, but not someone like Floyd who was a hardened user in all likelihood.


    Floyd's level is in the range often found in overdoses but most overdoses of Fentanyl occur in new users. Normally someone taking Fentanyl will have experience with it, so most people with that level are old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level. For someone who was a seasoned user and had developed tolerance what Floyd died with is probably not a fatal level, and nothing about him struggling and shouting in the video suggests he was becoming comatose or his lungs were filling with fluid. I dare say this was not Floyd's first rodeo with Fentanyl.

    Once they got him on his chest and kept him there for several minutes the Fentanyl can't have helped but that is why the rules in Minneapolis PD are so specific that police are NOT keep a cuffed arrestee like that, but immediately put him in the recovery position. This is what Chauvin and his three stooges did not do, and so proving an assault on Floyd by Chauvin will be easy as pie for the prosecution. Felony murder is a hard charge to beat.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @ic1000

    someone like Floyd who was a hardened user… [an] old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level.

    LOL. I love how you just make stuff up so your story comes out right.

    nothing about him struggling and shouting in the video suggests he was becoming comatose or his lungs were filling with fluid.

    Actually, the foam that was apparently coming from Floyd’s mouth (which he blamed on hooping) is a possible sign of fluid in the lungs. The excessive weight of Floyd’s lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs. Additionally, we cannot discount Floyd’s own claim that he could not breathe that he made before he even went down on the ground. That is a strong indication that something was going wrong in his cardiopulmonary system, and fluid in the lungs is definitely one thing that would cause a sensation of being unable to breathe. (Moreover, lung tissue oxygen exchange, which is what fluid would inhibit, is not directly connected to speaking, so the fact that he could speak is not a sign that his lungs were clear of fluid.)

    the Fentanyl can’t have helped but that is why [italics mine] the rules in Minneapolis PD are so specific that police are NOT keep a cuffed arrestee like that, but immediately put him in the recovery position.

    That doesn’t make sense. Whether respiratory depression, speedball cardiac arrest, or pulmonary edema, the effects of fentanyl are irrelevant to position. The recovery position is to prevent positional asphyxia, but as positional asphyxia is highly correlated with obesity…
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31982838/
    …while Floyd was not overweight, and as it’s not clear (a) whether or how much officer restraint contributes in any case of PA and (b) whether the officers were even placing any weight or if so how much weight in this specific case, it is questionable without further information whether a “recovery position” would have helped.

    proving an assault on Floyd by Chauvin will be easy as pie for the prosecution. Felony murder is a hard charge to beat.

    I can’t predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court, but as far as I know, Chauvin hasn’t been charged with an assault yet. I suspect it will be harder than you think. I may be wrong, but I think the Supreme Court has determined that prone restraint does not constitute assault as long as the police have a reasonable expectation that the prone restraint is preventing the arrestee from fighting back. And while I am not a lawyer in Minnesota, I wouldn’t be surprised if the law treats police conducting arrests differently from other situations.

    Moreover, 2nd degree murder does not just require that a person died while a felony is being committed but that the accused caused the person to die while committing the felony. So, if the cause of death can possibly be attributed to overdose, I think a jury would have to acquit on a reasonable doubt standard.

    The 2nd degree manslaughter charge seems more likely to stick–Chauvin demonstrating negligence in not attempting CPR or even checking a pulse quickly. However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulence, in which case they will all walk. I’m not saying this will happen, but I think it is a definite possible outcome.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    @Chrisnonymous

    In which American jurisdictions have you ever been admitted to the practice of law?

    Please expound upon the applicable burden of proof in criminal cases, in the United States, and what that burden entails, specifically, in cases of alleged homicide.

    , @Sean
    @Chrisnonymous


    I can’t predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court,
     
    They have already explained that their case will be that Chauvin was committing an assault on Floyd.

    Chauvin hasn’t been charged with an assault yet
     
    He is charged under Minnesota's felony murder law, and as indicated the felony will be assault.

    However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulance ...
     
    Assuming that is what happened, nothing was stopping Chauvin and his buddies covering themselves discharging their duty to put Floyd in the recovery position that is mandatory in those circumstances. Felony murder is a strange charge, but get it into your noggin that the prosecution only have to prove intent to commit the felony.

    The excessive weight of Floyd’s lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs.
     
    Several minutes went by while Chauvin violated standing orders about what to immediately do with a handcuffed arrestee after subjecting him to the maximal restraint technique.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @D. K.

  123. @ic1000
    @jb

    > Some guy in a YouTube video I can’t find now argued that... while Floyd’s fentanyl level was indeed above the the average lethal dose, that average covers a remarkably wide range

    Yes. See Lot's reply to your comment.

    My comment #133 on a June 9th iSteve post also addressed this.


    Tolerance is probably the key factor that determines whether 11 ng/mL is a little or a lot. For many/most first-time users, it looks like enough to cause stupor and then respiratory arrest. But one hallmark of opioids is that the body adapts to regular use over a period of weeks — you need progressively more to get high, and also to achieve the (undesired) effect of respiratory arrest.
     
    In comment #106 on the same thread, illustrious commenter JackD linked the key 2018 paper by Olaf Drummer, "Fatalities caused by novel opioids: a review." Drummer wrote:

    Numerous publications have described fatalities associated with [fentanyl’s] misuse… Peripheral blood concentrations range from near 1 ng/mL to well over 20 ng/mL with a median somewhere between 5 and 10 ng/mL, depending on degree of tolerance and presence of other significant drugs. Doses vary significantly depending on the route of administration and degree of tolerance.
     
    Table 1 summarizes 7 reports' accounts of hundreds of fentanyl overdoses. The highest was 139 ng/mL. (The table doesn't speak to what the highest non-fatal blood level on record might be.)

    One would need the history of Floyd’s drug use to put his 11 ng/mL (plus 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl) in context, beyond saying, "that would be enough to kill most people, but some very tolerant people could survive it."

    Replies: @travis, @Chrisnonymous, @Sean, @Alice in Wonderland

    Am I missing something here?

    All of this data is for fatalities, not surviving.

    Sure, 136ng will kill you, but so will 1 ng.

    To find the max dose one can survive, we would need to see data for blood concentrations of those who survived, not those who died.

    So, one person is thrifty and kills himself with 5ng and another is a drama king and goes for 50 ng in no way establishes that 50 ng is the minimum required to kill a drama king.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    @Alice in Wonderland

    ***

    Heroin isn't the only street drug that might contain fentanyl. In the latest issue of MMWR, the CDC reports that, on June 23, 2016, twelve people were taken to emergency rooms in New Haven, CT with symptoms of opioid overdose. But they hadn't taken heroin; instead, they had taken cocaine. Despite all twelve patients receiving the opioid "antidote" naloxone, two (Patients E and I) were dead on arrival and one (Patient K) died three days later in the ICU.

    . . .

    Subsequent investigations revealed that what had been sold as cocaine was mostly fentanyl with a trace amount of cocaine. The patients who were dead on arrival had gone into cardiac arrest due to blood concentrations of fentanyl that were much higher than what is administered therapeutically. (Fentanyl is used in hospitals as a painkiller at a blood concentration of 0.6 to 3.0 ng/mL or ppb). Patient E had a blood concentration of 11 ng/mL, while Patient I had 13 ng/mL. Patient K, who died a few days later, had 9.5 ng/mL. Patient F, who lived, had a concentration of 4.6 ng/mL, the highest among the survivors of this incident.

    ***

    [ https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/02/02/fentanyl-overdose-dont-count-naloxone-save-you-10822 ]

  124. @Anon
    Well, I noticed that after the first autopsy they arrested the knee-cop, but after the second autopsy by the family’s team came out, they rushed to arrest a couple of more cops: Since neither autopsy showed esophogal crushing (which in any event should not happen during a properly executed knee hold), obviously no breathing problem could come from that (I think they were counting on claiming that the knee somehow cut off blood in a way that would not cause unconsciousness, but might reduce oxygen?).

    The second autopsy explicitly downplayed the knee’s contribution and went with a cummulative diaphraghm/lung expansion hindrance theory, which required the entire restraining team to be arrested, since no single party’s action would have caused death.

    So even in the absense of the tox report, I thought that with a proper defense the cops would have better than even odds of getting off.

    If they get off, boy is there going to be rioting. If I were in retail I’d switch to an online business model right now. If I lived in a suburb I’d buy guns and ammo, organize with neighbors to convert the street to an impromptu gated community with barricades, and start a baseball team on your block, complete with several dozen bats.

    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere. Mobs are going to the houses of public officials and police officers, and nothing is really done about it. If you vote not guilty, I could see a woke fellow juror ratting you out and your residence being doxxed and burned down with you and your family in it. I could see employers firing jurors who are outed as “non guiltyers." This could all be something that jurors absorb by osmosis from the current zeitgeist, not by direct threat.

    Replies: @gregor, @Pestarz, @Kronos, @lysias, @ThurstonBT

    Judge should direct a verdict of not guilty if the prosecution does not drop the case as it should. That would leave the jurors off the hook. Dangerous for the judge, but that’s the judge’s job.

  125. @jb
    @JimDandy

    Yes, despite all those things, it's much more likely that Floyd would have made it home than that he just coincidentally died at that moment, and that his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it. The counter-narrative you are clinging to is not just unconvincing, but counterproductive, because it misses the real issue, which is that there is no evidence that Floyd's death had anything whatsoever to do with race or racism.

    The thing is, police officers are human, and sometimes they do screw up and inadvertently kill people. Sometimes those people are black (George Floyd, Eric Garner). Sometimes they are white (Tony Timpa, Jonathan Salcido). But when they're black it's splashed across the headlines and treated as an indictment of white America, while when they're white it's studiously ignored, so the public is given the false impression that things like this happen only to blacks, and therefore must be about race. When you make tendentious and speculative hand-waving arguments about a single encounter -- he was dying anyway! -- you not only make yourself look bigoted and foolish, but you draw attention away from the true problem, which is dishonest reporting by the media.

    Replies: @anon, @JimDandy, @Chrisnonymous

    But the manner of death does matter for two reasons:

    (1) Optics and propaganda. The game on Unz Review is hopefully people reasoning things out, but the game in the wider world is people yelling emotionally-charged slogans at each other fueled by anger and hatred deriving from anecdotes they can cling to, not data.

    (2) To the extent the left has an argument, it’s that Chauvin’s indifference to Floyd’s life is representative of the way police interact with blacks. And while the data on shootings show that there is no racial bias in shootings, there is some evidence from other data, like “manhandling” by police. I think it’s likely that the racial bias in “manhandling” is legitimately explained by officers experience and intuition for situations. But it’s hard to argue that when the cases you have to examine are accepted as cases of police indifference. If, instead, Chauvin thought, based on his experience, that he was not neglecting Floyd’s safety but that Floyd was ODing, and if he was right, that would change the usefulness and relevance of the situation.

    t’s much more likely that Floyd would have made it home than that he just coincidentally died at that moment, and that his treatment by the police had nothing to do with it

    This logic is only valid as long as you are dealing with black box situations. As we learn more facts, the black box stops being the entire situation that led to the outcome and becomes ” little black boxes of the gaps in our knowledge.” When we get info, coincidence becomes more likely if facts seem to rule out cause-effect connections. For example, when we see that Floyd could move his head around and even lift it off the ground, this increases the likelihood of coincidence significantly vis-a-vis the black box statement that Chauvin was kneeling on Floyd’s neck.

    • Agree: ic1000
  126. @Alice in Wonderland
    @ic1000

    Am I missing something here?

    All of this data is for fatalities, not surviving.

    Sure, 136ng will kill you, but so will 1 ng.

    To find the max dose one can survive, we would need to see data for blood concentrations of those who survived, not those who died.

    So, one person is thrifty and kills himself with 5ng and another is a drama king and goes for 50 ng in no way establishes that 50 ng is the minimum required to kill a drama king.

    Replies: @D. K.

    ***

    Heroin isn’t the only street drug that might contain fentanyl. In the latest issue of MMWR, the CDC reports that, on June 23, 2016, twelve people were taken to emergency rooms in New Haven, CT with symptoms of opioid overdose. But they hadn’t taken heroin; instead, they had taken cocaine. Despite all twelve patients receiving the opioid “antidote” naloxone, two (Patients E and I) were dead on arrival and one (Patient K) died three days later in the ICU.

    . . .

    Subsequent investigations revealed that what had been sold as cocaine was mostly fentanyl with a trace amount of cocaine. The patients who were dead on arrival had gone into cardiac arrest due to blood concentrations of fentanyl that were much higher than what is administered therapeutically. (Fentanyl is used in hospitals as a painkiller at a blood concentration of 0.6 to 3.0 ng/mL or ppb). Patient E had a blood concentration of 11 ng/mL, while Patient I had 13 ng/mL. Patient K, who died a few days later, had 9.5 ng/mL. Patient F, who lived, had a concentration of 4.6 ng/mL, the highest among the survivors of this incident.

    ***

    (https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/02/02/fentanyl-overdose-dont-count-naloxone-save-you-10822 ]

  127. @Lot
    @jb

    "The point was that as a habitual druggie Floyd could easily have been tolerant of doses that would kill new users, which means the toxicology report isn’t as useful as it might seem."

    No conclusive evidence of heroin use in his blood, no track marks from IV drug use. He also did not have the build of a junkie.

    "tolerant of doses that would kill new users"

    The dose of fentanyl used in cancer patients who are already highly tolerant of opiates is at most 3, and Floyd was at 11.

    The only way that level doesn't kill Floyd is he was a very heavy user. And there's zero evidence of this in the autopsy.

    He most likely ingested what he thought was an oxycodone pill, but was a chinese fake made with too much fentanyl. This is, by the way, exactly how Prince died.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @jb, @anon

    So it was the chinks wot done it! They killed poor George!

  128. @AnotherDad
    @Dave Pinsen

    One can only hope she's doing a parody of a self-centered, emotional, woe-is-me actress. But I suspect not.


    Why does she think she has this nice career? Because she's a compelling technology or financial analyst of comparative cell phone services? Certainly she must know that it's because she's easy on the eyes ... guys don't mind looking at her while she delivers her pitch.

    A smarter less self-involved gal would respond to guys yapping about her "milkers" with something like: "Please be respectful, and, if you must do so, refer to my breasts by their proper designation "milk jugs".

    Of course what she should be doing is using her natural endowments to lock down a quality, decent earning guy and then put those jugs to their intended use!

    Replies: @vhrm, @The Wild Geese Howard

    Why does she think she has this nice career? Because she’s a compelling technology or financial analyst of comparative cell phone services?

    Our wonderful universities actually manage to brainwash the women who take STEM degrees with this attitude.

    Great comments on that Livestream-

    “I’d leave my wife and kids for you!”

    The thirst is real!

  129. With regard to the analysis of Mr. Floyd’s toxicology results: “4ANPP – a precursor and metabolite of fentanyl …”.

    How can a chemical be both a precursor AND a metabolite of fentanyl?

  130. Anonymous[423] • Disclaimer says:
    @jb
    @Lot

    According to the video I was referencing, deaths have been recorded at dosages as low as 3, and as high as 111. (Can't guarantee that last number, but it was something over 100). If that's true (and the guy in the video did strike me as competent to look up numbers), you definitely can't rule out the possibility that Floyd might have been able tolerate 11. So you need to focus on symptoms and behavior rather than just reading numbers out of a toxicology report.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    According to the video I was referencing, deaths have been recorded at dosages as low as 3, and as high as 111. (Can’t guarantee that last number, but it was something over 100). If that’s true (and the guy in the video did strike me as competent to look up numbers), you definitely can’t rule out the possibility that Floyd might have been able tolerate 11.

    The data you cite says nothing about what level someone might be able to tolerate. Think again.

  131. @Chrisnonymous
    @Sean


    someone like Floyd who was a hardened user... [an] old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level.
     
    LOL. I love how you just make stuff up so your story comes out right.

    nothing about him struggling and shouting in the video suggests he was becoming comatose or his lungs were filling with fluid.
     
    Actually, the foam that was apparently coming from Floyd's mouth (which he blamed on hooping) is a possible sign of fluid in the lungs. The excessive weight of Floyd's lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs. Additionally, we cannot discount Floyd's own claim that he could not breathe that he made before he even went down on the ground. That is a strong indication that something was going wrong in his cardiopulmonary system, and fluid in the lungs is definitely one thing that would cause a sensation of being unable to breathe. (Moreover, lung tissue oxygen exchange, which is what fluid would inhibit, is not directly connected to speaking, so the fact that he could speak is not a sign that his lungs were clear of fluid.)

    the Fentanyl can’t have helped but that is why [italics mine] the rules in Minneapolis PD are so specific that police are NOT keep a cuffed arrestee like that, but immediately put him in the recovery position.
     
    That doesn't make sense. Whether respiratory depression, speedball cardiac arrest, or pulmonary edema, the effects of fentanyl are irrelevant to position. The recovery position is to prevent positional asphyxia, but as positional asphyxia is highly correlated with obesity...
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31982838/
    ...while Floyd was not overweight, and as it's not clear (a) whether or how much officer restraint contributes in any case of PA and (b) whether the officers were even placing any weight or if so how much weight in this specific case, it is questionable without further information whether a "recovery position" would have helped.

    proving an assault on Floyd by Chauvin will be easy as pie for the prosecution. Felony murder is a hard charge to beat.
     
    I can't predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court, but as far as I know, Chauvin hasn't been charged with an assault yet. I suspect it will be harder than you think. I may be wrong, but I think the Supreme Court has determined that prone restraint does not constitute assault as long as the police have a reasonable expectation that the prone restraint is preventing the arrestee from fighting back. And while I am not a lawyer in Minnesota, I wouldn't be surprised if the law treats police conducting arrests differently from other situations.

    Moreover, 2nd degree murder does not just require that a person died while a felony is being committed but that the accused caused the person to die while committing the felony. So, if the cause of death can possibly be attributed to overdose, I think a jury would have to acquit on a reasonable doubt standard.

    The 2nd degree manslaughter charge seems more likely to stick--Chauvin demonstrating negligence in not attempting CPR or even checking a pulse quickly. However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulence, in which case they will all walk. I'm not saying this will happen, but I think it is a definite possible outcome.

    Replies: @D. K., @Sean

    In which American jurisdictions have you ever been admitted to the practice of law?

    Please expound upon the applicable burden of proof in criminal cases, in the United States, and what that burden entails, specifically, in cases of alleged homicide.

  132. Good ole Fentanyl Floyd. Anyone watch the body cam footage of his BIG nose self crying like a baby? He spouted that mouth diarrhea crap phrase ‘I can’t breathe” about 7-8 times BEFORE the police ever held his BIG nosed ass down.

  133. @GeraldB
    @Anonymous

    compressing ONE carotid artery won't do any damage. you have to compress BOTH carotid arteries to make a person lose consciousness.

    Replies: @res

    Relevant detail about the redundancy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Willis

    • Replies: @anon
    @res

    Thank you, res.

    Some months ago, I believe you provided the forum with a link to Minneapolis police procedures, which included neck restraints in some circumstances. It appears that the Minneapolis police department has since revised its policy to not permit, in any circumstances, neck restraints. Would you happen to have a link to or copy of the former policy that you could again provide us with?

    Replies: @hooodathunkit, @res

  134. @Anon
    Well, I noticed that after the first autopsy they arrested the knee-cop, but after the second autopsy by the family’s team came out, they rushed to arrest a couple of more cops: Since neither autopsy showed esophogal crushing (which in any event should not happen during a properly executed knee hold), obviously no breathing problem could come from that (I think they were counting on claiming that the knee somehow cut off blood in a way that would not cause unconsciousness, but might reduce oxygen?).

    The second autopsy explicitly downplayed the knee’s contribution and went with a cummulative diaphraghm/lung expansion hindrance theory, which required the entire restraining team to be arrested, since no single party’s action would have caused death.

    So even in the absense of the tox report, I thought that with a proper defense the cops would have better than even odds of getting off.

    If they get off, boy is there going to be rioting. If I were in retail I’d switch to an online business model right now. If I lived in a suburb I’d buy guns and ammo, organize with neighbors to convert the street to an impromptu gated community with barricades, and start a baseball team on your block, complete with several dozen bats.

    A worst-case scenario that has occured to me is that jurors might be intimidated, not directly, but just by the current atmosphere. Mobs are going to the houses of public officials and police officers, and nothing is really done about it. If you vote not guilty, I could see a woke fellow juror ratting you out and your residence being doxxed and burned down with you and your family in it. I could see employers firing jurors who are outed as “non guiltyers." This could all be something that jurors absorb by osmosis from the current zeitgeist, not by direct threat.

    Replies: @gregor, @Pestarz, @Kronos, @lysias, @ThurstonBT

    Above you reference the existence of a “second autopsy by the family’s team”. To my knowledge no “second autopsy” occurred and the claim of “second autopsy” is just a canard.

    Can you, or anyone else, provide an authoritative citation of this putative “second autopsy”?

  135. @Chrisnonymous
    @Hypnotoad666

    I think that the officers in this situation may have really believed that Chauvin was exhibiting excited delirium, but I'm not sure he was. Excited delirium does not simply occur in any type of intoxication. It is associated with use of uppers like cocaine or meth or "speedball" combos of downers/uppers. Also, it sounds like people get really crazy--for example, not being able to recognize people they usually know. It is also characterized by, among other things, aggression, unusual strength, and high body temperature.

    Although Floyd was resisting arrest and could be described as acting paranoid (maybe), it's not fair to say he was aggressive. He also seemed in complete control of his (apparently limited) faculties, I see no signs of abnormal strength, and the police make no mention in the transcripts like "he's burning up" or such to suggest he had a high temperature.

    Also, excited delirium is described as extreme agitation followed by sudden collapse. I don't think that describes Floyd.

    It is true that he had traces of meth in his system, suggesting he may have been a chronic user of uppers, putting him in the right risk category. However, I think the level was quite low if I remember, suggesting he hadn't recently taken a speedball that was causing EXDS.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061757/

    I'm not trying to blame the police, but I think if the medical examiner had considered EXDS likely, he would had said so. As I said above, I think it is difficult to point to a clear cause of death.

    =================
    Break and new thought after research....

    I just read the report Steve posted above. I should have done that earlier.

    The coroner mentions pulmonary edema, which I hadn't heard of before as connected to opioids, but it is definitely a thing, and not only in drug abusers. This puts everything in a new light for me....

    Pulmonary edema is essentially when the lungs get swelled with excessive fluid. As you can imagine, this makes breathing difficult and can inhibit oxygen from being exchanged between the air and blood by the lung tissue even when adequate air can be taken into the lungs.

    The connection between opioids and pulmonary edema is not clear, according to the literature, but one possibility is that there is a direct effect of the opioid by making tissues "leaky", allowing fluid to pass from the vascular system into the lung tissue. Another possibility is that the edema is caused by adrenaline when, for example, the opioid is reversed with Narcan.

    Unfortunately, another possibility is that the edema is caused when a person with an obstructed airway tries to inhale strongly against the obstruction. (The negative pressure caused by inhaling usually draws in air, but if the airway is obstructed, it may draw in fluid from the body instead.) No doubt, this explanation will be jumped on by those wishing to blame Chauvin, although as I have said before, I think it is unlikely that Floyd's airway was obstructed for several reasons.

    The theory I think is interesting is the Narcan theory that posits that adrenaline rush following reversal of pain-inhibiting opioids causes the edema. Normally, of course, you would have to administer Narcan to get this effect (although the article below specifies that pulmonary edema has been found in opioid users who have not been administered Narcan too), but in Floyd's case, he seemed to be panicking from the time the officers approached him in his car. According to the transcripts, he had been shot by police before and was worried that he was going to get shot again--enough to cause me to have an adrenaline rush.

    The reason this pulmonary edema puts things in a new light for me is that it doesn't require the other symptoms that are absent in Floyd. For example, the fentanyl causing respiratory depression theory has the defect I mentioned in the previous comment, which is that Floyd doesn't appear to be exhibiting signs of opioid depression. Likewise, as I mentioned just above, Floyd doesn't seem to meet the definition of EXDS. However, pulmonary edema secondary to opioid use and adrenaline rush would be consistent with Floyd's circumstances, symptoms, and the timeline (panic and breathing trouble both occurring before restraint).

    As evidence of pulmonary edema, the coroner mentions that Floyd's lungs were abnormally heavy (i.e., full of fluid). Unfortunately, as Floyd was recovering from COVID, that will be a complicating factor in Chauvin's trial, I suspect. However, a benefit to Chauvin and the police is that the pre-hospital treatment for pulmonary edema is essentially just increased oxygen and use of a CPAP machine, neither of which the officers had access to--i.e., there is nothing they could have done to help Floyd, even if they had started CPR, it wouldn't have been effective.

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12016-013-8373-z

    https://bcmj.org/articles/noncardiogenic-pulmonary-edema-associated-ultrapotent-opioid-overdoses

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Pulmonary edema could be it; cf. commenters Charlotte above and Pestarz). Thanks, Chrisnonymus for elaborating on it.

  136. anon[423] • Disclaimer says:
    @res
    @GeraldB

    Relevant detail about the redundancy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Willis

    Replies: @anon

    Thank you, res.

    Some months ago, I believe you provided the forum with a link to Minneapolis police procedures, which included neck restraints in some circumstances. It appears that the Minneapolis police department has since revised its policy to not permit, in any circumstances, neck restraints. Would you happen to have a link to or copy of the former policy that you could again provide us with?

    • Replies: @hooodathunkit
    @anon

    anon[423] : The George Floyd Fall Guys (The American Spectator)

    , @res
    @anon

    Searching my comments for "procedure" and specifying latest first turned it up pretty quickly. Here's the comment.
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/social-distancing-in-minneapolis/#comment-3926749

    And the link
    http://www.minneapolismn.gov/police/policy/mpdpolicy_5-300_5-300

    The relevant section was revised 6/9/20. Here is the current version. Note that I excerpted the original section 5-311 in full in my earlier comment.


    5-311 PROHIBITION ON NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12) (06/09/20)

    (D)
    Neck Restraints and choke holds are prohibited. Instructors are prohibited from teaching the use of neck restraints or choke holds.
     
    The Internet Archive is made for cases like this. I think this is what you really want.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200601013118/http://www.minneapolismn.gov/police/policy/mpdpolicy_5-300_5-300
  137. @travis
    @ic1000

    and yet many drug addicts would die from such a high dose. Other drugs combined also have an effect. Floyd was also recovering from COVID-19 at the time of his arrest and still had the active virus detected in the hospital. He may well be another victim of COVID-19 and would have been listed as a COVID fatality if the police had gotten him in their car and taken him directly to the hospital.

    Maybe tolerance to fentanyl goes down when you are fighting this deadly coronavirus, for a middle aged, obese man with heart disease. Amazing he survived COVID for weeks , wonder if he was reducing his drug intake as he fought against the viral infection and was feeling better the day he died, thus ingested more drugs than he had in while. Tolerance will fall quickly if he was abstaining from drug use while fighting coronavirus. Nobody knows if he was a daily user of opioids , maybe they mixed some fentanyl in with his speed. Maybe he was not a regular user of fentanyl. Not sure how the medical doctor would know about his past drug use. Did they talk with his drug suppliers ? Was he a daily user ? nobody really knows. But we do know he was fighting coronavirus fro weeks.

    Could the deadly coronavirus make it more difficult to breath while overdosing on fentanyl ?????

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Why do people describe Floyd as “obese”? (Actually, I think I know–it’s to fit the positional asphyxia narrative…) In the multiple photos of Floyd available online, he doesn’t look overweight in any of them.

    The coroner’s report says he was 6’4″ and 223 lbs. That a BMI of about 27, which is mildly overweight, although in his photos he doesn’t look overweight at all and has a flat stomach and small waist.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    @Chrisnonymous

    You're trying to get Whiskey all hot and bothered, aren't you.

  138. @Sean
    A pathologist sees dead people with Fentanyl, so I think his statement lacks qualification and specificity; the level is lethal for the average person, but not someone like Floyd who was a hardened user in all likelihood.


    Floyd's level is in the range often found in overdoses but most overdoses of Fentanyl occur in new users. Normally someone taking Fentanyl will have experience with it, so most people with that level are old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level. For someone who was a seasoned user and had developed tolerance what Floyd died with is probably not a fatal level, and nothing about him struggling and shouting in the video suggests he was becoming comatose or his lungs were filling with fluid. I dare say this was not Floyd's first rodeo with Fentanyl.

    Once they got him on his chest and kept him there for several minutes the Fentanyl can't have helped but that is why the rules in Minneapolis PD are so specific that police are NOT keep a cuffed arrestee like that, but immediately put him in the recovery position. This is what Chauvin and his three stooges did not do, and so proving an assault on Floyd by Chauvin will be easy as pie for the prosecution. Felony murder is a hard charge to beat.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @ic1000

    > Floyd’s level is in the range often found in overdoses but most overdoses of Fentanyl occur in new users. Normally someone taking Fentanyl will have experience with it, so most people with that level are old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level. For someone who was a seasoned user and had developed tolerance what Floyd died with is probably not a fatal level

    Comments like this from random intrawebs users need to supply credible references to rise above the level of uninformed speculation, i.e. noise.

  139. @Chrisnonymous
    @Sean


    someone like Floyd who was a hardened user... [an] old hands whose metabolism is fine with that level.
     
    LOL. I love how you just make stuff up so your story comes out right.

    nothing about him struggling and shouting in the video suggests he was becoming comatose or his lungs were filling with fluid.
     
    Actually, the foam that was apparently coming from Floyd's mouth (which he blamed on hooping) is a possible sign of fluid in the lungs. The excessive weight of Floyd's lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs. Additionally, we cannot discount Floyd's own claim that he could not breathe that he made before he even went down on the ground. That is a strong indication that something was going wrong in his cardiopulmonary system, and fluid in the lungs is definitely one thing that would cause a sensation of being unable to breathe. (Moreover, lung tissue oxygen exchange, which is what fluid would inhibit, is not directly connected to speaking, so the fact that he could speak is not a sign that his lungs were clear of fluid.)

    the Fentanyl can’t have helped but that is why [italics mine] the rules in Minneapolis PD are so specific that police are NOT keep a cuffed arrestee like that, but immediately put him in the recovery position.
     
    That doesn't make sense. Whether respiratory depression, speedball cardiac arrest, or pulmonary edema, the effects of fentanyl are irrelevant to position. The recovery position is to prevent positional asphyxia, but as positional asphyxia is highly correlated with obesity...
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31982838/
    ...while Floyd was not overweight, and as it's not clear (a) whether or how much officer restraint contributes in any case of PA and (b) whether the officers were even placing any weight or if so how much weight in this specific case, it is questionable without further information whether a "recovery position" would have helped.

    proving an assault on Floyd by Chauvin will be easy as pie for the prosecution. Felony murder is a hard charge to beat.
     
    I can't predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court, but as far as I know, Chauvin hasn't been charged with an assault yet. I suspect it will be harder than you think. I may be wrong, but I think the Supreme Court has determined that prone restraint does not constitute assault as long as the police have a reasonable expectation that the prone restraint is preventing the arrestee from fighting back. And while I am not a lawyer in Minnesota, I wouldn't be surprised if the law treats police conducting arrests differently from other situations.

    Moreover, 2nd degree murder does not just require that a person died while a felony is being committed but that the accused caused the person to die while committing the felony. So, if the cause of death can possibly be attributed to overdose, I think a jury would have to acquit on a reasonable doubt standard.

    The 2nd degree manslaughter charge seems more likely to stick--Chauvin demonstrating negligence in not attempting CPR or even checking a pulse quickly. However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulence, in which case they will all walk. I'm not saying this will happen, but I think it is a definite possible outcome.

    Replies: @D. K., @Sean

    I can’t predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court,

    They have already explained that their case will be that Chauvin was committing an assault on Floyd.

    Chauvin hasn’t been charged with an assault yet

    He is charged under Minnesota’s felony murder law, and as indicated the felony will be assault.

    However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulance …

    Assuming that is what happened, nothing was stopping Chauvin and his buddies covering themselves discharging their duty to put Floyd in the recovery position that is mandatory in those circumstances. Felony murder is a strange charge, but get it into your noggin that the prosecution only have to prove intent to commit the felony.

    The excessive weight of Floyd’s lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs.

    Several minutes went by while Chauvin violated standing orders about what to immediately do with a handcuffed arrestee after subjecting him to the maximal restraint technique.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Sean

    Yes. As I indicated, I am not a lawyer, but I don't think the murder statutes are difficult to understand. I just think the case is not as clear-cut as you would like it to be. In fact, I suspect they amended to murder 2 to murder 3 because 3 obviously doesn't apply. I.e., they are essentially abandoning it. But for murder 2, they now have to prove three things--(1) that Chauvin was committing another felony, (2) that he caused the death, and (3) that the death was caused in the process of the felony. If any of those three fail, the charge may not stick.

    (1) As to the other felony, which I take your word will be assault, I don't know enough about the laws or the dept policies or how they interact to have a strong opinion, and I hampered in reading more by the fact that the Minneapolis PD's website gives 404 errors when accessed from my country of residence. However, as I mentioned, it seems SCOTUS has found before that prone positioning is lawful when the officers have a reasonable expectation it is called for. That seems reasonable to me, and so I suspect the situation is similar in Minnesota. Unless the law is worded very strongly, then if the PD has given training on ExDS utilizing or referencing materials that recommend prone positioning, I would think a skilled defense attorney could use that to undermine the assault charge.

    (2) Did Chauvin cause the death? We will see what the prosecution and the defense bring to the trial, but I suspect that, again, skilled defense attorneys could throw serious doubt on whether the officers caused the death.

    (3) Did Chauvin cause the death in the process of committing the assault? If the beginning of the prone restraint was lawful, when did the assault begin? If Floyd's death is held to be precipitated by their actions, when did the precipitating events begin?

    I think these things will be murkier under examination than you suspect. For example, if the jury can be convinced that there is a reasonable possibility that the cardiac arrest occurred secondary to the stress of the arrest circumstances, then how do you hold that the death was caused in the process of the assault?

    Similarly, the prosecutors will have to show that the outcome would have been different if the assault had not occurred. But if the defense can make a case for pulmonary edema, then it is likely that the ambulance arriving earlier is the only thing that could be held to have helped Floyd.

    Replies: @Sean

    , @D. K.
    @Sean

    I will ask you the same question as I did of him, above:

    In which American jurisdictions have you ever been admitted to the practice of law?

    This is the Minnesota statute on murder in the second degree, with the relevant provision highlighted:

    ***

    609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

    (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

    (2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e, under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (3).

    Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

    (1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

    (2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

    History: 1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.19; 1981 c 227 s 10; 1992 c 571 art 4 s 6; 1995 c 226 art 2 s 16; 1996 c 408 art 4 s 8; 1998 c 367 art 2 s 8; 2015 c 21 art 1 s 99

    Copyright © 2019 by the Revisor of Statutes, State of Minnesota. All rights reserved.

    ***

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

    Here is the Minnesota statute on assault in the fifth degree:

    ***

    609.224 ASSAULT IN THE FIFTH DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Misdemeanor. Whoever does any of the following commits an assault and is guilty of a misdemeanor:

    (1) commits an act with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or

    (2) intentionally inflicts or attempts to inflict bodily harm upon another.

    Subd. 2.Gross misdemeanor. (a) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 against the same victim within ten years of a previous qualified domestic violence-related offense conviction or adjudication of delinquency is guilty of a gross misdemeanor and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both.

    (b) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 within three years of a previous qualified domestic violence-related offense conviction or adjudication of delinquency is guilty of a gross misdemeanor and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both.

    Subd. 3.Firearms. (a) When a person is convicted of a violation of this section or section 609.221, 609.222, or 609.223, the court shall determine and make written findings on the record as to whether:

    (1) the defendant owns or possesses a firearm; and

    (2) the firearm was used in any way during the commission of the assault.

    (b) Except as otherwise provided in section 609.2242, subdivision 3, paragraph (c), a person is not entitled to possess a pistol if the person has been convicted after August 1, 1992, of assault in the fifth degree if the offense was committed within three years of a previous conviction under sections 609.221 to 609.224, unless three years have elapsed from the date of conviction and, during that time, the person has not been convicted of any other violation of section 609.224. Property rights may not be abated but access may be restricted by the courts. A person who possesses a pistol in violation of this paragraph is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

    Subd. 4.Felony. (a) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 against the same victim within ten years of the first of any combination of two or more previous qualified domestic violence-related offense convictions or adjudications of delinquency is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    (b) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 within three years of the first of any combination of two or more previous qualified domestic violence-related offense convictions or adjudications of delinquency is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    History: 1979 c 258 s 7; 1983 c 169 s 2; 1985 c 159 s 1; 1987 c 329 s 7; 1992 c 537 s 1,2; 1992 c 571 art 6 s 13; 1993 c 326 art 2 s 11,12; 1Sp1993 c 5 s 2,3; 1994 c 636 art 3 s 10; 1995 c 229 art 2 s 1; 1995 c 259 art 3 s 13,14; 1996 c 408 art 3 s 21,22; 2000 c 437 s 6,7; 1Sp2001 c 8 art 10 s 8,9; 2006 c 260 art 1 s 16,17; 2011 c 28 s 8

    Copyright © 2019 by the Revisor of Statutes, State of Minnesota. All rights reserved.

    ***

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.224

    The Minnesota statutes on the four higher degrees of assault are available at the same site, preceding that statute. The reason that I cut-and-pasted this misdemeanor statute is because it is the only one of the five that actually bothers to define what constitutes “assault” in the statute! To wit:

    ***

    609.221 ASSAULT IN THE FIRST DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Great bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts great bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 20 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $30,000, or both.

    ***

    609.222 ASSAULT IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Dangerous weapon. Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or to payment of a fine of not more than $14,000, or both.

    Subd. 2.Dangerous weapon; substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both.

    ***

    609.223 ASSAULT IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    Subd. 2.Past pattern of child abuse. Whoever assaults a minor may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both, if the perpetrator has engaged in a past pattern of child abuse against the minor. As used in this subdivision, "child abuse" has the meaning given it in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (5).

    Subd. 3.Felony; victim under four. Whoever assaults a victim under the age of four, and causes bodily harm to the child's head, eyes, or neck, or otherwise causes multiple bruises to the body, is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    ***

    The Minnesota statute for assault in the fourth degree applies to certain categories of victims, mostly public employees. Perhaps the Attorney General thinks that George Floyd fit this statutory category:

    ***

    Subd. 8.Vulnerable adults. (a) As used in this subdivision, "vulnerable adult" has the meaning given in section 609.232, subdivision 11.

    (b) Whoever assaults and inflicts demonstrable bodily harm on a vulnerable adult, knowing or having reason to know that the person is a vulnerable adult, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

    ***

    . . . but that still would not get the Attorney General the felonious predicate that he is claiming.

    The police’s use of approved forms of physical restraint on an accused felon who is resisting arrest, while appearing to be highly intoxicated on illicit recreational drugs, after his being found behind the wheel of the vehicle in which he obviously drove to the scene, while already intoxicated (based upon the statement to the authorities by the alleged victim of Floyd’s crime), does not constitute an assault of any degree under Minnesota statute. Your “Monday morning quarterbacking” of the incident does not turn their lawful restraint into a felonious assault; nor does Floyd’s death, 57 minutes later, in the E.R., after his having gone into cardiac arrest in the ambulance, en route to the hospital, turn that lawful restraint into a felonious assault. Floyd did not die of either asphyxiation or strangulation. The restraint did not cause him any serious bodily injury that could have been responsible for his death from cardio-pulmonary failure. Regardless, the requisite criminal intent to commit a felonious assault also was clearly missing:

    ***

    The charge sheet against Chauvin included this exchange between the two white officers on the squad:[8] “” [sic] I am worried about excited delirium or whatever,” Lane said. “That’s why we have him on his stomach,” Chauvin said.”

    According to this dialogue, Chauvin was apparently was [sic] trying to follow the protocol recommended by WJEM. Since Floyd was on his stomach, Chauvin’s knee pinned him at the side of his neck, and did not impede breathing.

    ***

    https://medium.com/@leonardjpmail/george-floyd-died-of-a-fentanyl-overdose-not-police-brutality-da4b940052fc

    In order to file criminal charges, an American prosecutor has an ethical duty to have a reasonable, good-faith belief that he will be able to prove each and every element of every criminal charge beyond a reasonable doubt— or, as is added in some jurisdictions, “to a moral certainty”— before the trier of fact, be that jury or judge, through an adversarial proceeding in which the defendant will be zealously represented by competent legal counsel. As someone who is a retired attorney, and sometime legal consultant, I consider it absolutely ludicrous that an American prosecutor could have such a requisite belief in this case, in light of what we already know from the autopsy and the videos of the encounter. I consider this to be a strictly political prosecution— by a Black Attorney General who is an Antifa-supporting Black Muslim, Black Separatist, and Black Supremacist— like many other politically motivated criminal prosecutions that currently are being conducted, around the country, against both policemen who were merely doing their jobs (some of whom, as in this case, are not even White!) and White Americans who have justifiedly killed Black Americans, or other politically useful victims.

  140. @anon
    @res

    Thank you, res.

    Some months ago, I believe you provided the forum with a link to Minneapolis police procedures, which included neck restraints in some circumstances. It appears that the Minneapolis police department has since revised its policy to not permit, in any circumstances, neck restraints. Would you happen to have a link to or copy of the former policy that you could again provide us with?

    Replies: @hooodathunkit, @res

    anon[423] : The George Floyd Fall Guys (The American Spectator)

  141. @Beavertales
    The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation used the phrase "the MURDER of George Floyd by police officers" in their radio reporting a few weeks ago.

    This week, they walked it back to "the May 25 death of a Black man in Minneapolis, George Floyd, who was pinned to the street under the knee of a white police officer."

    The legacy media tries to correct the record without having to apologize.

    Replies: @bruce county

    The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

    Therein lies your problem. The liberal propaganda machine of Canada.
    I stopped watching CBC anything years ago.
    They hate white people.
    Their entire staff looks like they hired from every shit hole nation in Africa and the Middle East.
    Turn off you tv!.

  142. @Lot
    @Dieter Kief

    I don’t think him taking drugs to avoid being caught is likely.

    He was becoming increasingly intoxicated. He drove to Cup Foods and parked his SUV on his own, but after he left the store was too panicky to drive.

    Disposing of a little bit of drugs, or simply leaving the scene before the police came, are not hard. He couldn’t do that because by that time he was incapacitated by the pill or pills he likely took about 45 minutes before the videos start.

    Further, possession of a personal amount of drugs is tolerated in big cities.

    Did you watch the video? He was completely irrational and displayed the rationality of a 2 year old or escaped mental patient.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Did you watch the video? He was completely irrational and displayed the rationality of a 2 year old or escaped mental patient.

    It is not irrational to not want to go to jail.

  143. @anon
    @res

    Thank you, res.

    Some months ago, I believe you provided the forum with a link to Minneapolis police procedures, which included neck restraints in some circumstances. It appears that the Minneapolis police department has since revised its policy to not permit, in any circumstances, neck restraints. Would you happen to have a link to or copy of the former policy that you could again provide us with?

    Replies: @hooodathunkit, @res

    Searching my comments for “procedure” and specifying latest first turned it up pretty quickly. Here’s the comment.
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/social-distancing-in-minneapolis/#comment-3926749

    And the link
    http://www.minneapolismn.gov/police/policy/mpdpolicy_5-300_5-300

    The relevant section was revised 6/9/20. Here is the current version. Note that I excerpted the original section 5-311 in full in my earlier comment.

    5-311 PROHIBITION ON NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12) (06/09/20)

    (D)
    Neck Restraints and choke holds are prohibited. Instructors are prohibited from teaching the use of neck restraints or choke holds.

    The Internet Archive is made for cases like this. I think this is what you really want.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200601013118/http://www.minneapolismn.gov/police/policy/mpdpolicy_5-300_5-300

  144. @Lagertha
    @Dave Pinsen

    weak, no balls guy. I hate these un-American assholes! I moved here in 1968...prosperity followed. My family left Brooklyn to be closer to VA. My family got more properous. I hate all of you anti-Steve- guys, tonight, you are all so boring and tired and flaccid. At some point, you guys need to have ideas.

    I so hate all of you who are anti-American. I hope you have bad luck.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Unlike Nick, I’m fine with the RNC content if it makes women like you happy. Trump already has my vote and if he can shore up your demo by naturalizing a Star Wars Cantina quintet, so be it.

    I am curious about the ideas you allude to. What are yours?

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Dave Pinsen

    I don't trust you because I don't know you.

  145. @Chrisnonymous
    @travis

    Why do people describe Floyd as "obese"? (Actually, I think I know--it's to fit the positional asphyxia narrative...) In the multiple photos of Floyd available online, he doesn't look overweight in any of them.

    The coroner's report says he was 6'4" and 223 lbs. That a BMI of about 27, which is mildly overweight, although in his photos he doesn't look overweight at all and has a flat stomach and small waist.

    Replies: @Mr McKenna

    You’re trying to get Whiskey all hot and bothered, aren’t you.

    • LOL: Chrisnonymous
  146. @Sean
    @Chrisnonymous


    I can’t predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court,
     
    They have already explained that their case will be that Chauvin was committing an assault on Floyd.

    Chauvin hasn’t been charged with an assault yet
     
    He is charged under Minnesota's felony murder law, and as indicated the felony will be assault.

    However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulance ...
     
    Assuming that is what happened, nothing was stopping Chauvin and his buddies covering themselves discharging their duty to put Floyd in the recovery position that is mandatory in those circumstances. Felony murder is a strange charge, but get it into your noggin that the prosecution only have to prove intent to commit the felony.

    The excessive weight of Floyd’s lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs.
     
    Several minutes went by while Chauvin violated standing orders about what to immediately do with a handcuffed arrestee after subjecting him to the maximal restraint technique.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @D. K.

    Yes. As I indicated, I am not a lawyer, but I don’t think the murder statutes are difficult to understand. I just think the case is not as clear-cut as you would like it to be. In fact, I suspect they amended to murder 2 to murder 3 because 3 obviously doesn’t apply. I.e., they are essentially abandoning it. But for murder 2, they now have to prove three things–(1) that Chauvin was committing another felony, (2) that he caused the death, and (3) that the death was caused in the process of the felony. If any of those three fail, the charge may not stick.

    (1) As to the other felony, which I take your word will be assault, I don’t know enough about the laws or the dept policies or how they interact to have a strong opinion, and I hampered in reading more by the fact that the Minneapolis PD’s website gives 404 errors when accessed from my country of residence. However, as I mentioned, it seems SCOTUS has found before that prone positioning is lawful when the officers have a reasonable expectation it is called for. That seems reasonable to me, and so I suspect the situation is similar in Minnesota. Unless the law is worded very strongly, then if the PD has given training on ExDS utilizing or referencing materials that recommend prone positioning, I would think a skilled defense attorney could use that to undermine the assault charge.

    (2) Did Chauvin cause the death? We will see what the prosecution and the defense bring to the trial, but I suspect that, again, skilled defense attorneys could throw serious doubt on whether the officers caused the death.

    (3) Did Chauvin cause the death in the process of committing the assault? If the beginning of the prone restraint was lawful, when did the assault begin? If Floyd’s death is held to be precipitated by their actions, when did the precipitating events begin?

    I think these things will be murkier under examination than you suspect. For example, if the jury can be convinced that there is a reasonable possibility that the cardiac arrest occurred secondary to the stress of the arrest circumstances, then how do you hold that the death was caused in the process of the assault?

    Similarly, the prosecutors will have to show that the outcome would have been different if the assault had not occurred. But if the defense can make a case for pulmonary edema, then it is likely that the ambulance arriving earlier is the only thing that could be held to have helped Floyd.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Chrisnonymous

    That stuff can't fly, not now. The system initially cleared him, but that ceased to be the thing after the video went viral and created a requirement to restore public confidence, which consideration no judge can ignore. Chauvin will have to live to be a very old man to ever be free again. Bear in mind that the charges have been increased from the original manslaughter. The system thinks it has to convict him of something called murder. His character is being trashed with the tens of thousands of dollars tax evasion charges, which is going to be a big help to the prosecution in convincing the jury that he is a crafty liar who wriggles out of his obligations rather than one who discharges his duties as he supposed to.

    Yet though he may consider himself unlucky, it must never be forgotten that he was told loud and clear that he was being recorded and withal in the aftermath of the Arbery video getting people charged! Did knowing he was being filmed alter the behaviour of Chauvin? I cannot help wondering because it seems surprisingly common for people to do inexplicable things while they were being filmed with their knowledge (for documentaries ect). Chauvin stayed on top of Floyd's even after no pulse could be found; later when the paramedic arrived, Chauvin had had to be told to get off Floyd's corpse. How long was he planning on staying there, and what was he trying to achieve?

    One of the teen Manson girls who participated in the LaBiancas murders got a retrial on her first degree murder conviction, but the jury could not agree whether she was fully responsible because of the drugs she had been given so she was given a bail and a third trial. But the prosecution brought in an expert in the technical area on responsibility issues--he later became a judge--as assistant to the prosecutor, and they completely switched from the two previous prosecutions, by charging her with felony murder (because Charlie had taken a wallet). She was easily convicted and is still inside.

    Felony murder is a very tough charge to beat and in crucial aspects the proof of intent issue is sidestepped in a way that cannot be dome in a simple murder prosecution. Many people with far more tangential involvement in a homicide than Chauvin (who there is damming film of) are doing life without the possibility of parole for felony murder. In a nutshell they have a suitable law and the court will not be open to aquitting Chauvin.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  147. @Sean
    @Chrisnonymous


    I can’t predict what the prosecutors will ultimately say in court,
     
    They have already explained that their case will be that Chauvin was committing an assault on Floyd.

    Chauvin hasn’t been charged with an assault yet
     
    He is charged under Minnesota's felony murder law, and as indicated the felony will be assault.

    However, if a jury decides that Floyd likely died from pulmonary edema secondary to overdose, then there is nothing the police could have done except wait for the ambulance ...
     
    Assuming that is what happened, nothing was stopping Chauvin and his buddies covering themselves discharging their duty to put Floyd in the recovery position that is mandatory in those circumstances. Felony murder is a strange charge, but get it into your noggin that the prosecution only have to prove intent to commit the felony.

    The excessive weight of Floyd’s lungs on autopsy, as mentioned by the coroner in the document Steve posted is practically the definition of fluid in the lungs.
     
    Several minutes went by while Chauvin violated standing orders about what to immediately do with a handcuffed arrestee after subjecting him to the maximal restraint technique.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @D. K.

    I will ask you the same question as I did of him, above:

    In which American jurisdictions have you ever been admitted to the practice of law?

    This is the Minnesota statute on murder in the second degree, with the relevant provision highlighted:

    ***

    609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

    (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

    (2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e, under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (3).

    Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

    (1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

    (2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, “order for protection” includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

    History: 1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.19; 1981 c 227 s 10; 1992 c 571 art 4 s 6; 1995 c 226 art 2 s 16; 1996 c 408 art 4 s 8; 1998 c 367 art 2 s 8; 2015 c 21 art 1 s 99

    Copyright © 2019 by the Revisor of Statutes, State of Minnesota. All rights reserved.

    ***

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

    Here is the Minnesota statute on assault in the fifth degree:

    ***

    609.224 ASSAULT IN THE FIFTH DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Misdemeanor. Whoever does any of the following commits an assault and is guilty of a misdemeanor:

    (1) commits an act with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or

    (2) intentionally inflicts or attempts to inflict bodily harm upon another.

    Subd. 2.Gross misdemeanor. (a) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 against the same victim within ten years of a previous qualified domestic violence-related offense conviction or adjudication of delinquency is guilty of a gross misdemeanor and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both.

    (b) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 within three years of a previous qualified domestic violence-related offense conviction or adjudication of delinquency is guilty of a gross misdemeanor and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both.

    Subd. 3.Firearms. (a) When a person is convicted of a violation of this section or section 609.221, 609.222, or 609.223, the court shall determine and make written findings on the record as to whether:

    (1) the defendant owns or possesses a firearm; and

    (2) the firearm was used in any way during the commission of the assault.

    (b) Except as otherwise provided in section 609.2242, subdivision 3, paragraph (c), a person is not entitled to possess a pistol if the person has been convicted after August 1, 1992, of assault in the fifth degree if the offense was committed within three years of a previous conviction under sections 609.221 to 609.224, unless three years have elapsed from the date of conviction and, during that time, the person has not been convicted of any other violation of section 609.224. Property rights may not be abated but access may be restricted by the courts. A person who possesses a pistol in violation of this paragraph is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

    Subd. 4.Felony. (a) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 against the same victim within ten years of the first of any combination of two or more previous qualified domestic violence-related offense convictions or adjudications of delinquency is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    (b) Whoever violates the provisions of subdivision 1 within three years of the first of any combination of two or more previous qualified domestic violence-related offense convictions or adjudications of delinquency is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    History: 1979 c 258 s 7; 1983 c 169 s 2; 1985 c 159 s 1; 1987 c 329 s 7; 1992 c 537 s 1,2; 1992 c 571 art 6 s 13; 1993 c 326 art 2 s 11,12; 1Sp1993 c 5 s 2,3; 1994 c 636 art 3 s 10; 1995 c 229 art 2 s 1; 1995 c 259 art 3 s 13,14; 1996 c 408 art 3 s 21,22; 2000 c 437 s 6,7; 1Sp2001 c 8 art 10 s 8,9; 2006 c 260 art 1 s 16,17; 2011 c 28 s 8

    Copyright © 2019 by the Revisor of Statutes, State of Minnesota. All rights reserved.

    ***

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.224

    The Minnesota statutes on the four higher degrees of assault are available at the same site, preceding that statute. The reason that I cut-and-pasted this misdemeanor statute is because it is the only one of the five that actually bothers to define what constitutes “assault” in the statute! To wit:

    ***

    609.221 ASSAULT IN THE FIRST DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Great bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts great bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 20 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $30,000, or both.

    ***

    609.222 ASSAULT IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Dangerous weapon. Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or to payment of a fine of not more than $14,000, or both.

    Subd. 2.Dangerous weapon; substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another with a dangerous weapon and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both.

    ***

    609.223 ASSAULT IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

    Subdivision 1.Substantial bodily harm. Whoever assaults another and inflicts substantial bodily harm may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    Subd. 2.Past pattern of child abuse. Whoever assaults a minor may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both, if the perpetrator has engaged in a past pattern of child abuse against the minor. As used in this subdivision, “child abuse” has the meaning given it in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (5).

    Subd. 3.Felony; victim under four. Whoever assaults a victim under the age of four, and causes bodily harm to the child’s head, eyes, or neck, or otherwise causes multiple bruises to the body, is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

    ***

    The Minnesota statute for assault in the fourth degree applies to certain categories of victims, mostly public employees. Perhaps the Attorney General thinks that George Floyd fit this statutory category:

    ***

    Subd. 8.Vulnerable adults. (a) As used in this subdivision, “vulnerable adult” has the meaning given in section 609.232, subdivision 11.

    (b) Whoever assaults and inflicts demonstrable bodily harm on a vulnerable adult, knowing or having reason to know that the person is a vulnerable adult, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

    ***

    . . . but that still would not get the Attorney General the felonious predicate that he is claiming.

    The police’s use of approved forms of physical restraint on an accused felon who is resisting arrest, while appearing to be highly intoxicated on illicit recreational drugs, after his being found behind the wheel of the vehicle in which he obviously drove to the scene, while already intoxicated (based upon the statement to the authorities by the alleged victim of Floyd’s crime), does not constitute an assault of any degree under Minnesota statute. Your “Monday morning quarterbacking” of the incident does not turn their lawful restraint into a felonious assault; nor does Floyd’s death, 57 minutes later, in the E.R., after his having gone into cardiac arrest in the ambulance, en route to the hospital, turn that lawful restraint into a felonious assault. Floyd did not die of either asphyxiation or strangulation. The restraint did not cause him any serious bodily injury that could have been responsible for his death from cardio-pulmonary failure. Regardless, the requisite criminal intent to commit a felonious assault also was clearly missing:

    ***

    The charge sheet against Chauvin included this exchange between the two white officers on the squad:[8] “” [sic] I am worried about excited delirium or whatever,” Lane said. “That’s why we have him on his stomach,” Chauvin said.”

    According to this dialogue, Chauvin was apparently was [sic] trying to follow the protocol recommended by WJEM. Since Floyd was on his stomach, Chauvin’s knee pinned him at the side of his neck, and did not impede breathing.

    ***

    https://medium.com/@leonardjpmail/george-floyd-died-of-a-fentanyl-overdose-not-police-brutality-da4b940052fc

    In order to file criminal charges, an American prosecutor has an ethical duty to have a reasonable, good-faith belief that he will be able to prove each and every element of every criminal charge beyond a reasonable doubt— or, as is added in some jurisdictions, “to a moral certainty”— before the trier of fact, be that jury or judge, through an adversarial proceeding in which the defendant will be zealously represented by competent legal counsel. As someone who is a retired attorney, and sometime legal consultant, I consider it absolutely ludicrous that an American prosecutor could have such a requisite belief in this case, in light of what we already know from the autopsy and the videos of the encounter. I consider this to be a strictly political prosecution— by a Black Attorney General who is an Antifa-supporting Black Muslim, Black Separatist, and Black Supremacist— like many other politically motivated criminal prosecutions that currently are being conducted, around the country, against both policemen who were merely doing their jobs (some of whom, as in this case, are not even White!) and White Americans who have justifiedly killed Black Americans, or other politically useful victims.

  148. @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    I stand up with adults who were trafficked and slaved...their experiences makes me sick. But, we all need to support these people who were enslaved for decades.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    it is so sickening – it was hard for me to believe it is true!

  149. @Lagertha
    @Lagertha

    I stand up with adults who were trafficked and slaved...their experiences makes me sick. But, we all need to support these people who were enslaved for decades.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @Lagertha, @Lagertha

    it is so sickening – it was hard for me to believe it is true! Slavery is alive and well at the hands of the Elite.

  150. @Cloudbuster
    @Lagertha

    I've never met anyone who was enslaved for decades.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    I have 3 close friends. One is European – the stuff that was done to these women when they were little girls, is sickening.

    They have struggled for years with addiction and problems – they are safe & fine now, but it took them years to realize that they were worthy of life and happiness…shit, I am crying now. But, my personal job these days, is to find the Alters and messed up people who have the common: messed up family/familly rejection background.

  151. @Chrisnonymous
    @Sean

    Yes. As I indicated, I am not a lawyer, but I don't think the murder statutes are difficult to understand. I just think the case is not as clear-cut as you would like it to be. In fact, I suspect they amended to murder 2 to murder 3 because 3 obviously doesn't apply. I.e., they are essentially abandoning it. But for murder 2, they now have to prove three things--(1) that Chauvin was committing another felony, (2) that he caused the death, and (3) that the death was caused in the process of the felony. If any of those three fail, the charge may not stick.

    (1) As to the other felony, which I take your word will be assault, I don't know enough about the laws or the dept policies or how they interact to have a strong opinion, and I hampered in reading more by the fact that the Minneapolis PD's website gives 404 errors when accessed from my country of residence. However, as I mentioned, it seems SCOTUS has found before that prone positioning is lawful when the officers have a reasonable expectation it is called for. That seems reasonable to me, and so I suspect the situation is similar in Minnesota. Unless the law is worded very strongly, then if the PD has given training on ExDS utilizing or referencing materials that recommend prone positioning, I would think a skilled defense attorney could use that to undermine the assault charge.

    (2) Did Chauvin cause the death? We will see what the prosecution and the defense bring to the trial, but I suspect that, again, skilled defense attorneys could throw serious doubt on whether the officers caused the death.

    (3) Did Chauvin cause the death in the process of committing the assault? If the beginning of the prone restraint was lawful, when did the assault begin? If Floyd's death is held to be precipitated by their actions, when did the precipitating events begin?

    I think these things will be murkier under examination than you suspect. For example, if the jury can be convinced that there is a reasonable possibility that the cardiac arrest occurred secondary to the stress of the arrest circumstances, then how do you hold that the death was caused in the process of the assault?

    Similarly, the prosecutors will have to show that the outcome would have been different if the assault had not occurred. But if the defense can make a case for pulmonary edema, then it is likely that the ambulance arriving earlier is the only thing that could be held to have helped Floyd.

    Replies: @Sean

    That stuff can’t fly, not now. The system initially cleared him, but that ceased to be the thing after the video went viral and created a requirement to restore public confidence, which consideration no judge can ignore. Chauvin will have to live to be a very old man to ever be free again. Bear in mind that the charges have been increased from the original manslaughter. The system thinks it has to convict him of something called murder. His character is being trashed with the tens of thousands of dollars tax evasion charges, which is going to be a big help to the prosecution in convincing the jury that he is a crafty liar who wriggles out of his obligations rather than one who discharges his duties as he supposed to.

    Yet though he may consider himself unlucky, it must never be forgotten that he was told loud and clear that he was being recorded and withal in the aftermath of the Arbery video getting people charged! Did knowing he was being filmed alter the behaviour of Chauvin? I cannot help wondering because it seems surprisingly common for people to do inexplicable things while they were being filmed with their knowledge (for documentaries ect). Chauvin stayed on top of Floyd’s even after no pulse could be found; later when the paramedic arrived, Chauvin had had to be told to get off Floyd’s corpse. How long was he planning on staying there, and what was he trying to achieve?

    One of the teen Manson girls who participated in the LaBiancas murders got a retrial on her first degree murder conviction, but the jury could not agree whether she was fully responsible because of the drugs she had been given so she was given a bail and a third trial. But the prosecution brought in an expert in the technical area on responsibility issues–he later became a judge–as assistant to the prosecutor, and they completely switched from the two previous prosecutions, by charging her with felony murder (because Charlie had taken a wallet). She was easily convicted and is still inside.

    Felony murder is a very tough charge to beat and in crucial aspects the proof of intent issue is sidestepped in a way that cannot be dome in a simple murder prosecution. Many people with far more tangential involvement in a homicide than Chauvin (who there is damming film of) are doing life without the possibility of parole for felony murder. In a nutshell they have a suitable law and the court will not be open to aquitting Chauvin.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Or maybe Chauvin was distracted by the mob and was worried about what the mob might do? Three months later, that seems prescient.

    Replies: @Sean

  152. @Sean
    @Chrisnonymous

    That stuff can't fly, not now. The system initially cleared him, but that ceased to be the thing after the video went viral and created a requirement to restore public confidence, which consideration no judge can ignore. Chauvin will have to live to be a very old man to ever be free again. Bear in mind that the charges have been increased from the original manslaughter. The system thinks it has to convict him of something called murder. His character is being trashed with the tens of thousands of dollars tax evasion charges, which is going to be a big help to the prosecution in convincing the jury that he is a crafty liar who wriggles out of his obligations rather than one who discharges his duties as he supposed to.

    Yet though he may consider himself unlucky, it must never be forgotten that he was told loud and clear that he was being recorded and withal in the aftermath of the Arbery video getting people charged! Did knowing he was being filmed alter the behaviour of Chauvin? I cannot help wondering because it seems surprisingly common for people to do inexplicable things while they were being filmed with their knowledge (for documentaries ect). Chauvin stayed on top of Floyd's even after no pulse could be found; later when the paramedic arrived, Chauvin had had to be told to get off Floyd's corpse. How long was he planning on staying there, and what was he trying to achieve?

    One of the teen Manson girls who participated in the LaBiancas murders got a retrial on her first degree murder conviction, but the jury could not agree whether she was fully responsible because of the drugs she had been given so she was given a bail and a third trial. But the prosecution brought in an expert in the technical area on responsibility issues--he later became a judge--as assistant to the prosecutor, and they completely switched from the two previous prosecutions, by charging her with felony murder (because Charlie had taken a wallet). She was easily convicted and is still inside.

    Felony murder is a very tough charge to beat and in crucial aspects the proof of intent issue is sidestepped in a way that cannot be dome in a simple murder prosecution. Many people with far more tangential involvement in a homicide than Chauvin (who there is damming film of) are doing life without the possibility of parole for felony murder. In a nutshell they have a suitable law and the court will not be open to aquitting Chauvin.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Or maybe Chauvin was distracted by the mob and was worried about what the mob might do? Three months later, that seems prescient.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    The longer he knelt, the more numbers and hostility; my impression is it was mainly female at the time it could have ended with a victory for the cops after Floyd said he'd cooperate, and voices ask the cops why they didn't move Floyd into the car. Chauvin might be expected to have started with a plan to correct Floyd's attitude with a few minutes maximal restraint and then get him to cry uncle before putting him in police vehicle without any more carry on, yet for some reason Chauvin altered his intent. We will never know, but maybe the crucial turning point was when a chorus from the ladies of colour put Chauvin on notice that the whole thing was being recorded and he would be called to account for the actions he was about to take.

    Like Wagner's Siegfried being minded to give the Ring to the Rhinemaidens, but changing his mind when they try to frighten him by telling him about the curse that attaches to it, Chauvin made a supreme moral discovery: better to bring destruction on oneself than live in fear.


    Götterdämmerung
    --
    (He contemplates the ring.)
    The world's wealth hath a ring on me bestowed:
    for the grace of love had it been yours,
    and by your grace yet were it gained.
    But when limbs ye threaten and life,
    e'en tho' a finger outweigh its worth,
    from me ye wrest not the ring.
    My limbs and my life, see:
    (He lifts a clod of earth from the ground, holds it
    over his head, and with the last words throws it
    behind him
    .)
    so freely I fling away!
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  153. @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    Or maybe Chauvin was distracted by the mob and was worried about what the mob might do? Three months later, that seems prescient.

    Replies: @Sean

    The longer he knelt, the more numbers and hostility; my impression is it was mainly female at the time it could have ended with a victory for the cops after Floyd said he’d cooperate, and voices ask the cops why they didn’t move Floyd into the car. Chauvin might be expected to have started with a plan to correct Floyd’s attitude with a few minutes maximal restraint and then get him to cry uncle before putting him in police vehicle without any more carry on, yet for some reason Chauvin altered his intent. We will never know, but maybe the crucial turning point was when a chorus from the ladies of colour put Chauvin on notice that the whole thing was being recorded and he would be called to account for the actions he was about to take.

    Like Wagner’s Siegfried being minded to give the Ring to the Rhinemaidens, but changing his mind when they try to frighten him by telling him about the curse that attaches to it, Chauvin made a supreme moral discovery: better to bring destruction on oneself than live in fear.

    Götterdämmerung

    (He contemplates the ring.)
    The world’s wealth hath a ring on me bestowed:
    for the grace of love had it been yours,
    and by your grace yet were it gained.
    But when limbs ye threaten and life,
    e’en tho’ a finger outweigh its worth,
    from me ye wrest not the ring.
    My limbs and my life, see:
    (He lifts a clod of earth from the ground, holds it
    over his head, and with the last words throws it
    behind him
    .)
    so freely I fling away!

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    I thought the cops had given up on putting Floyd in the police SUV and were waiting for the EMTs in the ambulance (who got lost on the way) to treat Floyd.

    Replies: @Sean

  154. @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    The longer he knelt, the more numbers and hostility; my impression is it was mainly female at the time it could have ended with a victory for the cops after Floyd said he'd cooperate, and voices ask the cops why they didn't move Floyd into the car. Chauvin might be expected to have started with a plan to correct Floyd's attitude with a few minutes maximal restraint and then get him to cry uncle before putting him in police vehicle without any more carry on, yet for some reason Chauvin altered his intent. We will never know, but maybe the crucial turning point was when a chorus from the ladies of colour put Chauvin on notice that the whole thing was being recorded and he would be called to account for the actions he was about to take.

    Like Wagner's Siegfried being minded to give the Ring to the Rhinemaidens, but changing his mind when they try to frighten him by telling him about the curse that attaches to it, Chauvin made a supreme moral discovery: better to bring destruction on oneself than live in fear.


    Götterdämmerung
    --
    (He contemplates the ring.)
    The world's wealth hath a ring on me bestowed:
    for the grace of love had it been yours,
    and by your grace yet were it gained.
    But when limbs ye threaten and life,
    e'en tho' a finger outweigh its worth,
    from me ye wrest not the ring.
    My limbs and my life, see:
    (He lifts a clod of earth from the ground, holds it
    over his head, and with the last words throws it
    behind him
    .)
    so freely I fling away!
     

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I thought the cops had given up on putting Floyd in the police SUV and were waiting for the EMTs in the ambulance (who got lost on the way) to treat Floyd.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    Do the police give up and call an ambulance to deal with people just resisting arrest/; because I would assume the EMTs were sent for only once it was thought there was a medical emergency. Floyd was face down and handcuffed at 8.19pm. The video recording started shortly afterwards. One of Chauvin's hapless colleagues found Floyd had no pulse, and they called for EMTs at 8:30 p.m. They arrived in six minutes told Chauvin to get off of Floyd and placed him on a gurney and put him in the ambulance (still handcuffed). He was pronounced dead at a local hospital at 9:25 p.m. A male voice heard on the recording complaining about what was being done to Floyd is of the clerk who had called the cops on him.

    Replies: @D. K.

  155. @Steve Sailer
    @Sean

    I thought the cops had given up on putting Floyd in the police SUV and were waiting for the EMTs in the ambulance (who got lost on the way) to treat Floyd.

    Replies: @Sean

    Do the police give up and call an ambulance to deal with people just resisting arrest/; because I would assume the EMTs were sent for only once it was thought there was a medical emergency. Floyd was face down and handcuffed at 8.19pm. The video recording started shortly afterwards. One of Chauvin’s hapless colleagues found Floyd had no pulse, and they called for EMTs at 8:30 p.m. They arrived in six minutes told Chauvin to get off of Floyd and placed him on a gurney and put him in the ambulance (still handcuffed). He was pronounced dead at a local hospital at 9:25 p.m. A male voice heard on the recording complaining about what was being done to Floyd is of the clerk who had called the cops on him.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    @Sean

    “Do the police give up and call an ambulance to deal with people just resisting arrest/; because I would assume the EMTs were sent for only once it was thought there was a medical emergency.”

    The police placed a call for non-emergency medical treatment after Floyd hit his head on the door of the police vehicle, while he was resisting his being placed in the back seat.

    “Floyd was face down and handcuffed at 8.19pm. The video recording started shortly afterwards.”

    The cell-phone video taken by an onlooker started then. The police videos show everything about the encounter, before and after that point.

    “One of Chauvin’s hapless colleagues found Floyd had no pulse, and they called for EMTs at 8:30 p.m. They arrived in six minutes told Chauvin to get off of Floyd and placed him on a gurney and put him in the ambulance (still handcuffed).”

    One of his “hapless colleagues” failed to find Floyd’s pulse. (When doing tests for 23andMe.com, I have found it very difficult to locate my own pulse, with the directions staring me right in the face, even though I was alive, fully conscious, and fully attentive to the task. I imagine that George Floyd’s pulse was markedly weaker, at that time, than mine was, when I was doing 23andMe.com a good deed.) The police called the EMTs again and upgraded the call to a medical emergency by 8:22 p.m. The ambulance got lost and took longer than it should have, but it arrived at 8:27 p.m.— three minutes before you have the police ever calling for medical aid for Floyd; per Wikipedia.org:

    ***

    Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[75] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[10]:6:35[14]:7:43[1] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[10]:6:35[14]:7:43[1] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[10]:6:56[14]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[14]:7:56[76] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[14]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[10]:6:56 [EMPHASIS ADDED]

    ***

    “He was pronounced dead at a local hospital at 9:25 p.m.”

    Kudos! You got that part right.

    “A male voice heard on the recording complaining about what was being done to Floyd is of the clerk who had called the cops on him.”

    I assume that you find that fact damning, or tragic, or ironic, or something. As an erstwhile attorney at law, I merely find it incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial.

    ***

    Here are three articles, by a legal expert in this area of the law, that I highly recommend:

    https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

    https://spectator.org/george-floyd-police-training-minneapolis/

    https://spectator.org/minnesota-v-derek-chauvin-et-al-the-prosecutions-dirty-little-secret/

    ***

    “George Parry is a former federal and state prosecutor. From 1978 to 1983 he was the Chief of the Police Brutality/Misconduct Unit of the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office, which investigated and prosecuted use of deadly force by police. He blogs at knowledgeisgood.net and may be reached by email at [email protected]

    ***

    Replies: @Sean

  156. @Sean
    @Steve Sailer

    Do the police give up and call an ambulance to deal with people just resisting arrest/; because I would assume the EMTs were sent for only once it was thought there was a medical emergency. Floyd was face down and handcuffed at 8.19pm. The video recording started shortly afterwards. One of Chauvin's hapless colleagues found Floyd had no pulse, and they called for EMTs at 8:30 p.m. They arrived in six minutes told Chauvin to get off of Floyd and placed him on a gurney and put him in the ambulance (still handcuffed). He was pronounced dead at a local hospital at 9:25 p.m. A male voice heard on the recording complaining about what was being done to Floyd is of the clerk who had called the cops on him.

    Replies: @D. K.

    “Do the police give up and call an ambulance to deal with people just resisting arrest/; because I would assume the EMTs were sent for only once it was thought there was a medical emergency.”

    The police placed a call for non-emergency medical treatment after Floyd hit his head on the door of the police vehicle, while he was resisting his being placed in the back seat.

    “Floyd was face down and handcuffed at 8.19pm. The video recording started shortly afterwards.”

    The cell-phone video taken by an onlooker started then. The police videos show everything about the encounter, before and after that point.

    “One of Chauvin’s hapless colleagues found Floyd had no pulse, and they called for EMTs at 8:30 p.m. They arrived in six minutes told Chauvin to get off of Floyd and placed him on a gurney and put him in the ambulance (still handcuffed).”

    One of his “hapless colleagues” failed to find Floyd’s pulse. (When doing tests for 23andMe.com, I have found it very difficult to locate my own pulse, with the directions staring me right in the face, even though I was alive, fully conscious, and fully attentive to the task. I imagine that George Floyd’s pulse was markedly weaker, at that time, than mine was, when I was doing 23andMe.com a good deed.) The police called the EMTs again and upgraded the call to a medical emergency by 8:22 p.m. The ambulance got lost and took longer than it should have, but it arrived at 8:27 p.m.— three minutes before you have the police ever calling for medical aid for Floyd; per Wikipedia.org:

    ***

    Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[75] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[10]:6:35[14]:7:43[1] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[10]:6:35[14]:7:43[1] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[10]:6:56[14]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd’s condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[14]:7:56[76] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[14]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[10]:6:56 [EMPHASIS ADDED]

    ***

    “He was pronounced dead at a local hospital at 9:25 p.m.”

    Kudos! You got that part right.

    “A male voice heard on the recording complaining about what was being done to Floyd is of the clerk who had called the cops on him.”

    I assume that you find that fact damning, or tragic, or ironic, or something. As an erstwhile attorney at law, I merely find it incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial.

    ***

    Here are three articles, by a legal expert in this area of the law, that I highly recommend:

    https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

    https://spectator.org/george-floyd-police-training-minneapolis/

    https://spectator.org/minnesota-v-derek-chauvin-et-al-the-prosecutions-dirty-little-secret/

    ***

    “George Parry is a former federal and state prosecutor. From 1978 to 1983 he was the Chief of the Police Brutality/Misconduct Unit of the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office, which investigated and prosecuted use of deadly force by police. He blogs at knowledgeisgood.net and may be reached by email at [email protected].”

    ***

    • Replies: @Sean
    @D. K.


    The police placed a call for non-emergency medical treatment after Floyd hit his head on the door of the police vehicle, while he was resisting his being placed in the back seat.
     
    Like I said, the EMT's were not called to take Floyd away, so Chauvin presumably intended to put Floyd in the back of the police SUV at some juncture, yet he didn't take the opportunity to see if Floyd would cooperate as he was offering to do, and though police called for medical treatment for Floyd's bang on the head, he got put on the pavement, his hands cuffed behind his back and under three cops, for the next eight minutes. The essential point is a handcuffed arrestee who had the maximal restraint technique used on him must be moved into the recovery position once handcuffed. Chauvin did not do that, and the justification for using maximal restraint in the first place is far from obvious.

    Chauvin persisted with this puzzling (if it was not intended as punitive) course of action even after Kueng failed to find a pulse on Floyd. It was some minutes later that the EMTs arrived. Floyd was put in the back of the ambulance and after a whole minute, Lane was told by the EMTs to give Floyd CPR, which he did without getting a pulse


    Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest
     
    They may have reported that, but the evidence suggests that his heart stopped well before the ambulance arrived. The ambulance with Lane, the EMTs and the pulseless Floyd did not go directly to the hospital even though recordings of the radio traffic to bases prove they all knew his heart had stopped. Instead they drove a couple blocks for a rendezvous with fire department EMTs and stopped for several minutes for all to have a go at CPR on Floyd. I find it quite astounding that the ambulance did not rush Floyd to the nearest hospital with specialized doctors in emergency medicine.

    Here is something else you as an erstwhile attorney at law may find 'incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial'. While on top of Floyd, Kueng found time to notice a stone lodged in the tyre tread of the police vehicle and reached out to dislodge it and chuck it aside. Chauvin was resting both his hands on his thighs for much of the time he was kneeling on Floyd. For the avoidance of doubt, I rather think that there relaxation with be a powerful counter to any assertion the officers believed that Floyd couldn't be put in the recovery position for those seven minutes because he required continued maximal restraint.

  157. @D. K.
    @Sean

    “Do the police give up and call an ambulance to deal with people just resisting arrest/; because I would assume the EMTs were sent for only once it was thought there was a medical emergency.”

    The police placed a call for non-emergency medical treatment after Floyd hit his head on the door of the police vehicle, while he was resisting his being placed in the back seat.

    “Floyd was face down and handcuffed at 8.19pm. The video recording started shortly afterwards.”

    The cell-phone video taken by an onlooker started then. The police videos show everything about the encounter, before and after that point.

    “One of Chauvin’s hapless colleagues found Floyd had no pulse, and they called for EMTs at 8:30 p.m. They arrived in six minutes told Chauvin to get off of Floyd and placed him on a gurney and put him in the ambulance (still handcuffed).”

    One of his “hapless colleagues” failed to find Floyd’s pulse. (When doing tests for 23andMe.com, I have found it very difficult to locate my own pulse, with the directions staring me right in the face, even though I was alive, fully conscious, and fully attentive to the task. I imagine that George Floyd’s pulse was markedly weaker, at that time, than mine was, when I was doing 23andMe.com a good deed.) The police called the EMTs again and upgraded the call to a medical emergency by 8:22 p.m. The ambulance got lost and took longer than it should have, but it arrived at 8:27 p.m.— three minutes before you have the police ever calling for medical aid for Floyd; per Wikipedia.org:

    ***

    Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[75] then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[10]:6:35[14]:7:43[1] En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[10]:6:35[14]:7:43[1] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[10]:6:56[14]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[14]:7:56[76] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[14]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.[10]:6:56 [EMPHASIS ADDED]

    ***

    “He was pronounced dead at a local hospital at 9:25 p.m.”

    Kudos! You got that part right.

    “A male voice heard on the recording complaining about what was being done to Floyd is of the clerk who had called the cops on him.”

    I assume that you find that fact damning, or tragic, or ironic, or something. As an erstwhile attorney at law, I merely find it incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial.

    ***

    Here are three articles, by a legal expert in this area of the law, that I highly recommend:

    https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

    https://spectator.org/george-floyd-police-training-minneapolis/

    https://spectator.org/minnesota-v-derek-chauvin-et-al-the-prosecutions-dirty-little-secret/

    ***

    “George Parry is a former federal and state prosecutor. From 1978 to 1983 he was the Chief of the Police Brutality/Misconduct Unit of the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office, which investigated and prosecuted use of deadly force by police. He blogs at knowledgeisgood.net and may be reached by email at [email protected]

    ***

    Replies: @Sean

    The police placed a call for non-emergency medical treatment after Floyd hit his head on the door of the police vehicle, while he was resisting his being placed in the back seat.

    Like I said, the EMT’s were not called to take Floyd away, so Chauvin presumably intended to put Floyd in the back of the police SUV at some juncture, yet he didn’t take the opportunity to see if Floyd would cooperate as he was offering to do, and though police called for medical treatment for Floyd’s bang on the head, he got put on the pavement, his hands cuffed behind his back and under three cops, for the next eight minutes. The essential point is a handcuffed arrestee who had the maximal restraint technique used on him must be moved into the recovery position once handcuffed. Chauvin did not do that, and the justification for using maximal restraint in the first place is far from obvious.

    Chauvin persisted with this puzzling (if it was not intended as punitive) course of action even after Kueng failed to find a pulse on Floyd. It was some minutes later that the EMTs arrived. Floyd was put in the back of the ambulance and after a whole minute, Lane was told by the EMTs to give Floyd CPR, which he did without getting a pulse

    Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest

    They may have reported that, but the evidence suggests that his heart stopped well before the ambulance arrived. The ambulance with Lane, the EMTs and the pulseless Floyd did not go directly to the hospital even though recordings of the radio traffic to bases prove they all knew his heart had stopped. Instead they drove a couple blocks for a rendezvous with fire department EMTs and stopped for several minutes for all to have a go at CPR on Floyd. I find it quite astounding that the ambulance did not rush Floyd to the nearest hospital with specialized doctors in emergency medicine.

    Here is something else you as an erstwhile attorney at law may find ‘incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial’. While on top of Floyd, Kueng found time to notice a stone lodged in the tyre tread of the police vehicle and reached out to dislodge it and chuck it aside. Chauvin was resting both his hands on his thighs for much of the time he was kneeling on Floyd. For the avoidance of doubt, I rather think that there relaxation with be a powerful counter to any assertion the officers believed that Floyd couldn’t be put in the recovery position for those seven minutes because he required continued maximal restraint.

  158. “Like I said, the EMT’s were not called to take Floyd away, so Chauvin presumably intended to put Floyd in the back of the police SUV at some juncture, yet he didn’t take the opportunity to see if Floyd would cooperate as he was offering to do, and though police called for medical treatment for Floyd’s bang on the head, he got put on the pavement, his hands cuffed behind his back and under three cops, for the next eight minutes.”

    Watch the police videos, Sean. Mr. Floyd was not cooperating with the police, before or after Officer Chauvin and his partner showed up at the scene. Floyd’s words were in contrast to his behavior. He lied about his mother just dying; she had died a few years earlier. He lied about his having been shot by the police on a previous occasion. He lied about being claustrophobic; he was sitting in his own vehicle, behind the steering wheel, with another person in the passenger seat, and a third in the back seat, with the windows up, without any apparent fear of that enclosed space, before the first officers arrived. He lied about not being on drugs. It was Floyd himself who asked to be allowed to lie on the pavement, rather than stretched out on the back seat of the police vehicle, after he twice had actively resisted his arrest. Floyd’s obvious goal, that evening, like the goal of countless other black felons, before and since, was simply to avoid his being arrested and taken to jail, yet again. He was a violent felon, a career criminal, and an ex-convict.

    “The essential point is a handcuffed arrestee who had the maximal restraint technique used on him must be moved into the recovery position once handcuffed. Chauvin did not do that, and the justification for using maximal restraint in the first place is far from obvious.”

    Floyd was not placed under maximal restraint. The maximal form of restraint was intended to render the subject deliberately and promptly unconscious. (That portion of the department rules has since been memoryholed.) They were planning to place Floyd in a device to allow his being placed in the backseat of the police vehicle, without his being able to resist and kick open the door, as he originally had. Once they had upped the EMT request to emergency status, however, they merely were waiting for the ambulance to arrive and to take over physical control of Floyd.

    “Chauvin persisted with this puzzling (if it was not intended as punitive) course of action even after Kueng failed to find a pulse on Floyd. It was some minutes later that the EMTs arrived. Floyd was put in the back of the ambulance and after a whole minute, Lane was told by the EMTs to give Floyd CPR, which he did without getting a pulse[.]”

    They were expecting the ambulance to arrive at any moment. It got lost. That is not the police officers’ fault. Was Lane performing CPR or trying to find a pulse? I believe that the former takes two hands, and that adding the other activity would have required a third!?! Regardless, was Lane trained in CPR and finding a pulse? Again, when I have tried to find my own pulse, I always find it very difficult to do so; yet, I am convinced that I was still alive and conscious, during those frustrating attempts.

    “They may have reported that, but the evidence suggests that his heart stopped well before the ambulance arrived. The ambulance with Lane, the EMTs and the pulseless Floyd did not go directly to the hospital even though recordings of the radio traffic to bases prove they all knew his heart had stopped. Instead they drove a couple blocks for a rendezvous with fire department EMTs and stopped for several minutes for all to have a go at CPR on Floyd. I find it quite astounding that the ambulance did not rush Floyd to the nearest hospital with specialized doctors in emergency medicine.”

    What evidence suggests that the EMTs were wrong and that you are right, Sean? The fact that Floyd had passed out, before the ambulance arrived, does not mean that his heart had stopped and that he was already clinically dead. Somehow, I will trust that the EMTs knew their jobs better than you know their jobs— unless you have some superior medical credentials and professional expertise that you are keeping all to yourself, for some inscrutable reason, as you do all of your superior legal credentials and professional expertise in American criminal law!?!

    “Here is something else you as an erstwhile attorney at law may find ‘incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial’. While on top of Floyd, Kueng found time to notice a stone lodged in the tyre tread of the police vehicle and reached out to dislodge it and chuck it aside.”

    No, Sean, that is merely irrelevant and immaterial. (The proper English usage is “might” not “may,” Sean. I am a former English major, in addition to my being a former attorney at law.)

    “Chauvin was resting both his hands on his thighs for much of the time he was kneeling on Floyd. For the avoidance of doubt, I rather think that there relaxation with be a powerful counter to any assertion the officers believed that Floyd couldn’t be put in the recovery position for those seven minutes because he required continued maximal restraint.”

    The exchange between the two officers, cited above, shows that both of them were acting under the assumption that Floyd was suffering from excited delirium, and that Officer Chauvin, the senior officer on site, was doing what he thought was the proper technique, as discussed in the articles that I cited for you, above. Your assumption that if Officer Chauvin was incorrect in his assessment of the emergency, or otherwise was not following department protocol to the tee, that his restraint thereby became a felony assault, leading to a felony murder, is an erroneous one. Again, as I noted in my first comment addressed to you, which you curiously ignored, Officer Chauvin lacked the intent necessary to be charged with felony assault. Furthermore, and most crucially, the restraint did not kill George Floyd; his self-administered drug overdose did.

    The fact that Officer Chauvin had only one knee on Floyd’s neck, had it on a non-vulnerable spot, had his other knee on the ground, behind Floyd, was relaxed with hands on hips, and was not leaning into Floyd’s neck with a majority of his body weight, shows that he was not placing maximal restraint on Floyd; Chauvin merely was pinning him in place, with a cheek to the pavement. That did not kill him; neither did the other officers’ physical restraints. George Floyd died of a massive overdose of fentanyl and other illicit drugs, shutting down his heart and lungs. (You have no evidence that Floyd ever had taken a previous dose of fentanyl, nor even knew that that was what he was ingesting, that evening. In a study that I cited, above, in which a dozen drug users accidentally ODed on fentanyl-laced cocaine, the maximum amount of fentanyl found in the blood of the nine survivors was less than half of what was in Floyd’s system, that evening.)

    I am a 63-year-old retired attorney, with two master’s degrees, a Phi Beta Kappa key, and a fairly high IQ, Sean; yet, I do not consider myself an expert in anything. I suggest that you read those articles by an attorney who is undoubtedly an expert in this area of the law.

  159. @Dave Pinsen
    @Lagertha

    Unlike Nick, I'm fine with the RNC content if it makes women like you happy. Trump already has my vote and if he can shore up your demo by naturalizing a Star Wars Cantina quintet, so be it.

    I am curious about the ideas you allude to. What are yours?

    Replies: @Lagertha

    I don’t trust you because I don’t know you.

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