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Chetty: the Ivy League Likes Applicants Who Are Rich or Poor But Not Middle Class
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From a 2020 paper in the Quarterly Journal of Economics by Raj Chetty on college admissions to Ivy League colleges (plus Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Duke). It features Chetty’s usual immense sample sizes from theoretically secret data sources (IRS, Census, testing agencies, etc.) that nobody had the chutzpah before to think that they could data mine:

Income Segregation and Intergenerational Mobility Across Colleges in the United States

Chetty et al write:

The impacts of income-neutral allocations at the most selective colleges differ from those in the broader population. At Ivy-Plus colleges, the fraction of students from the bottom quintile remains essentially unchanged under income-neutral allocations in absolute terms (rising from 3.8% to 4.4%), but the fraction of students from the middle class (the second, third, and fourth income quintiles) rises sharply, from 27.8% to 37.9%, as shown in Table VI. Figure V, Panel A shows why we see the biggest effects on the representation of the middle class by plotting the parental income distribution of high SAT/ACT (≥1300) scorers alongside the parental income distribution of actual Ivy-Plus enrollees. Children from the bottom-quintile are represented at nearly the same rate as one would expect given their test scores; children from the middle class are underrepresented at these colleges; and those from the top quintile are overrepresented.

Figure V, Panel B presents a more granular depiction of the degree of over/underrepresentation by parental income. It plots the share of students with an SAT/ACT score of 1400—the modal and median test score among actual Ivy-Plus students—who attend an Ivy-Plus college. Rather than a flat line, which would have indicated that 1400-scorers from each parent income bin attend an Ivy-Plus college at the same rate, we observe an asymmetric U-shape, with higher attendance rates in the tails. In particular, 1400-scorers with parents from the top and bottom quintiles attend Ivy-Plus colleges at 2.4 and 1.6 times the rate of middle-quintile children with comparable test scores, respectively. We find similar patterns at other test score levels; see Online Appendix Table XII.

Here is some more data from Chetty that I’ve manipulated.

Here are the highest paid alumni in terms of median income in their early thirties. The top of the list tend to be 6-year pharmaceutical programs so I’m not sure they should be counted as undergrad:

name par_median k_median Kid/Parent median
Saint Louis College Of Pharmacy $92,500 $123,600 133.6%
Albany College Of Pharmacy And Health Sciences $95,800 $115,800 120.9%
MCPHS University $83,300 $112,700 135.3%
University Of The Sciences In Philadelphia $95,300 $102,700 107.8%
Massachusetts Institute Of Technology $141,000 $98,500 69.9%
Babson College $140,500 $95,300 67.8%
Stevens Institute Of Technology $96,000 $92,100 95.9%
University Of Pennsylvania $175,300 $91,800 52.4%
Princeton University $218,100 $90,700 41.6%
SUNY Maritime College $103,800 $90,500 87.2%
Duke University $196,000 $87,500 44.6%
California Maritime Academy $113,100 $85,800 75.9%
Kettering University $100,100 $85,400 85.3%
Worcester Polytechnic Institute $109,500 $85,200 77.8%
Stanford University $172,600 $84,800 49.1%
Massachusetts Maritime Academy $105,300 $84,800 80.5%
Georgetown University $195,100 $84,400 43.3%
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute $114,200 $84,100 73.6%
Rose – Hulman Institute Of Technology $109,500 $83,600 76.3%
California Institute Of Technology $124,500 $83,000 66.7%
Harvey Mudd College $139,800 $82,400 58.9%
Harvard University $174,000 $81,500 46.8%
Colorado School Of Mines $111,500 $81,500 73.1%
Lehigh University $138,300 $81,200 58.7%
Cornell University $143,300 $79,800 55.7%
Bentley University $119,600 $79,800 66.7%
Georgia Institute Of Technology $126,000 $78,900 62.6%
University Of Notre Dame $165,400 $78,800 47.6%
Carnegie Mellon University $134,400 $78,400 58.3%
Villanova University $159,900 $78,300 49.0%
Washington And Lee University $226,700 $78,200 34.5%
Rice University $149,200 $76,700 51.4%
Dartmouth College $185,500 $76,600 41.3%
Yale University $199,700 $76,000 38.1%
Digipen Institute Of Technology $95,200 $76,000 79.8%
Maine Maritime Academy $85,300 $75,900 89.0%
Columbia University In The City Of New York $169,600 $75,300 44.4%
Lafayette College $156,700 $75,300 48.1%
Johns Hopkins University $142,300 $75,000 52.7%
Case Western Reserve University $118,200 $73,400 62.1%
Bryant University $116,900 $73,300 62.7%
Clarkson University $94,600 $73,300 77.5%
Tufts University $187,900 $73,100 38.9%
Vanderbilt University $197,900 $72,800 36.8%
Milwaukee School Of Engineering $91,700 $72,700 79.3%
Northwestern University $168,500 $72,600 43.1%
Santa Clara University $149,900 $72,500 48.4%
Illinois Institute Of Technology $91,600 $72,300 78.9%
College Of The Holy Cross $157,000 $71,900 45.8%
Boston College $168,400 $71,800 42.6%

These are the 50 most Rich Kid Colleges (i.e., parents of students have the highest median annual incomes) sorted by the ratio of kid’s median income during early 30s divided by parents’ median income: e.g., among rich kid colleges, the University of Pennsylvania (with its strong on business) is the only one where the average kid earns over half as much as the average parent.

name par_median k_median Kid/Parent median
University Of Pennsylvania $175,300 $91,800 52.4%
Stanford University $172,600 $84,800 49.1%
Villanova University $159,900 $78,300 49.0%
Lafayette College $156,700 $75,300 48.1%
University Of Notre Dame $165,400 $78,800 47.6%
Harvard University $174,000 $81,500 46.8%
College Of The Holy Cross $157,000 $71,900 45.8%
Duke University $196,000 $87,500 44.6%
Columbia University In The City Of New York $169,600 $75,300 44.4%
University Of Michigan – Ann Arbor $156,100 $68,700 44.0%
Georgetown University $195,100 $84,400 43.3%
Northwestern University $168,500 $72,600 43.1%
Boston College $168,400 $71,800 42.6%
Princeton University $218,100 $90,700 41.6%
Dartmouth College $185,500 $76,600 41.3%
Tufts University $187,900 $73,100 38.9%
Emory University $175,700 $67,800 38.6%
University Of Richmond $180,600 $69,600 38.5%
Pomona College $161,600 $62,000 38.4%
Amherst College $181,300 $69,300 38.2%
Yale University $199,700 $76,000 38.1%
Trinity University $153,200 $58,100 37.9%
Washington University In St. Louis $180,200 $67,500 37.5%
Wake Forest University $191,500 $71,500 37.3%
Vanderbilt University $197,900 $72,800 36.8%
Hamilton College $164,600 $60,300 36.6%
Franklin & Marshall College $162,900 $57,800 35.5%
Washington And Lee University $226,700 $78,200 34.5%
Bowdoin College $177,600 $61,000 34.3%
Colgate University $208,900 $71,500 34.2%
Wesleyan University $165,300 $56,500 34.2%
Williams College $184,000 $62,600 34.0%
Carleton College $152,000 $51,700 34.0%
Trinity College of Hartford, CT $198,000 $67,300 34.0%
Brown University $197,000 $66,900 34.0%
Haverford College $174,200 $57,200 32.8%
Connecticut College $170,500 $55,500 32.6%
Rhodes College $164,400 $52,000 31.6%
Bates College $176,900 $55,900 31.6%
Southern Methodist University $176,400 $55,400 31.4%
Furman University $156,700 $48,100 30.7%
Davidson College $208,500 $60,300 28.9%
Kenyon College $168,400 $48,000 28.5%
Colby College $208,700 $59,200 28.4%
Colorado College $154,600 $43,600 28.2%
Middlebury College $219,600 $61,800 28.1%
Skidmore College $175,400 $47,500 27.1%
University Of The South $174,200 $46,600 26.8%
Yeshiva University $180,100 $46,400 25.8%
Landmark College $179,000 $21,700 12.1%

And here are colleges with parents making six figures that do the worst job of getting the child back close to six figures:

name Parent median income Child median income ratio
Landmark College $179,000 $21,700 12%
Lynn University $149,800 $28,300 19%
School Of The Museum Of Fine Arts $109,600 $25,000 23%
Warren Wilson College $104,100 $23,800 23%
Berklee College Of Music $119,300 $27,400 23%
California Institute Of The Arts $108,700 $25,300 23%
Sarah Lawrence College $146,500 $34,300 23%
School Of The Art Institute Of Chicago $105,800 $25,500 24%
Yeshiva University $180,100 $46,400 26%
Hampshire College $119,300 $31,200 26%
Bard College $117,900 $30,900 26%
Rhode Island School Of Design $142,800 $37,800 26%
Maryland Institute College Of Art $117,100 $31,300 27%
University Of The South $174,200 $46,600 27%
Evergreen State College $100,200 $27,000 27%
Skidmore College $175,400 $47,500 27%
Brigham Young University $119,600 $32,600 27%
Middlebury College $219,600 $61,800 28%
Savannah College Of Art And Design $114,900 $32,400 28%
Colorado College $154,600 $43,600 28%
Colby College $208,700 $59,200 28%
Kenyon College $168,400 $48,000 29%
University Of The Arts $100,600 $28,700 29%
Franciscan University Of Steubenville $102,500 $29,500 29%
Davidson College $208,500 $60,300 29%
Marymount California University $104,900 $31,300 30%
University Of North Carolina School Of The Arts $106,800 $32,000 30%
Reed College $121,900 $36,900 30%
Oberlin College $127,100 $38,900 31%
Reinhardt University $101,500 $31,100 31%
Furman University $156,700 $48,100 31%
Saddleback College $100,600 $31,100 31%
St. John’s College $110,900 $34,500 31%
Samford University $131,000 $40,800 31%
Truett Mcconnell College $103,100 $32,200 31%
Southern Methodist University $176,400 $55,400 31%
Bates College $176,900 $55,900 32%
Rhodes College $164,400 $52,000 32%
Vassar College $145,100 $46,000 32%
Wheaton College of Wheaton, IL $130,900 $41,500 32%
Elon University $146,000 $47,300 32%
Belmont University $116,700 $37,900 32%
Connecticut College $170,500 $55,500 33%
William Peace University $105,900 $34,700 33%
Haverford College $174,200 $57,200 33%
Hollins University $110,700 $36,400 33%
Meredith College $107,700 $35,500 33%
Pitzer College $131,900 $43,500 33%
Saint Mary’s College $130,600 $43,100 33%
College Of Charleston $119,500 $39,900 33%

And here is some more Chetty data: top 100 colleges for patents per capita among his sample of younger alumni:

College Alumni total_patents Patents per cap
California Institute Of Technology 861 280 0.33
Massachusetts Institute Of Technology 3919 1058 0.27
Harvey Mudd College 733 190 0.26
College For Creative Studies (Detroit) 498 123 0.25
Stanford University 6755 1309 0.19
Milwaukee Institute Of Art & Design 640 124 0.19
Carnegie Mellon University 4651 837 0.18
Kettering University 2365 393 0.17
Illinois Institute Of Technology 1082 158 0.15
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 4724 588 0.12
Cooper Union For The Advancement Of Science & Art 788 96 0.12
Rhode Island School Of Design 1421 154 0.11
Clarkson University 2548 274 0.11
Colorado School Of Mines 2433 246 0.10
Rose – Hulman Institute Of Technology 688 64 0.09
Worcester Polytechnic Institute 1810 164 0.09
Dartmouth College 4505 369 0.08
Case Western Reserve University 3304 266 0.08
Michigan Technological University 5039 405 0.08
Lawrence Technological University 1263 89 0.07
Milwaukee School Of Engineering 1755 122 0.07
Georgia Institute Of Technology 9706 666 0.07
Rochester Institute Of Technology 7410 481 0.06
Princeton University 4508 278 0.06
Harvard University 6819 386 0.06
Philadelphia University 2405 129 0.05
Cornell University 13161 664 0.05
University Of California, Berkeley 19443 919 0.05
Lehigh University 4628 216 0.05
Rice University 3066 143 0.05
Letourneau University 1191 50 0.04
University Of Michigan – Ann Arbor 23437 972 0.04
Stevens Institute Of Technology 1344 55 0.04
Wentworth Institute Of Technology 2972 120 0.04
Duke University 7027 269 0.04
Florida Institute Of Technology 1685 62 0.04
University Of Rochester 4321 157 0.04
New Mexico Institute Of Mining & Technology 661 24 0.04
Washington University In St. Louis 6277 227 0.04
California Polytechnic State University 13986 501 0.04
Johns Hopkins University 4247 147 0.03
Alfred University 2044 70 0.03
Savannah College Of Art And Design 4675 160 0.03
North Carolina State University 18534 622 0.03
Yale University 5183 173 0.03
Oregon Institute Of Technology 1354 45 0.03
Brown University 5998 195 0.03
University Of California, San Diego 15391 497 0.03
Pratt Institute 2241 72 0.03
Northeastern University 11878 380 0.03
Northwestern University 8027 256 0.03
New School, The 2691 79 0.03
Iowa State University Of Science & Technology 19581 573 0.03
Purdue University 41852 1167 0.03
University Of Washington System 22467 613 0.03
Columbia University In The City Of New York 5529 149 0.03
Claremont Mckenna College 1175 31 0.03
University Of Cincinnati 23911 619 0.03
Bradley University 5040 128 0.03
University Of Notre Dame 9280 234 0.03
Grinnell College 1479 35 0.02
Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University 21219 499 0.02
Bowdoin College 1836 41 0.02
Pomona College 1555 33 0.02
Art Institute Of Fort Lauderdale 2237 47 0.02
University Of Michigan – Dearborn 3053 64 0.02
University Of Pennsylvania 9653 201 0.02
University Of Evansville 2368 48 0.02
Bucknell University 3759 76 0.02
Lafayette College 2303 46 0.02
Swarthmore College 1408 28 0.02
Christian Brothers University 1058 21 0.02
Western Washington University 10996 218 0.02
Michigan State University 32656 640 0.02
University Of Detroit Mercy 1600 31 0.02
Vanderbilt University 6817 132 0.02
Trinity University 2686 49 0.02
Seattle University 2583 47 0.02
Tufts University 4963 89 0.02
University Of California, Santa Barbara 15825 280 0.02
University Of California, Los Angeles 20325 354 0.02
North Dakota State University – Main Campus – Fargo 8597 149 0.02
University Of Southern California 13653 229 0.02
College Of Wooster 2147 36 0.02
University Of Dayton 7419 123 0.02
University Of Colorado System 31081 513 0.02
Whitman College 1666 27 0.02
Western New England University 2415 39 0.02
Wellesley College 2298 37 0.02
Boston University 15311 246 0.02
Marquette University 7675 123 0.02
California State Polytechnic University, Pomona 9572 151 0.02
Marist College 4248 65 0.02
Brigham Young University 28861 441 0.02
University Of Saint Thomas of Saint Paul, MN 4941 75 0.02
University Of Virginia 13592 206 0.02
Montana State University Bozeman 9221 139 0.02
Gustavus Adolphus College 2854 43 0.02
DePauw University 2537 38 0.01

 

 
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  1. Playing the two ends against the middle? Maybe it’s good that the smart kids in Red State America are staying at home instead of being siphoned off to Cambridge. Charles Murray would probably say so.

    • Replies: @Guest007
    @Luke Lea

    Staying at home means falling of the track of affect finance, politics, healthcare, etc in the future.

    , @indocon
    @Luke Lea

    Staying home means you are missing out being on the stage where you can have impact commensurate with your abilities, with consolidation whole company HQs are moving to the coast leaving only rump operations in the middle. Think of a city like St. Louis, two decades ago it wassail a place to be for young aspiring professionals, HQ of companies like AB and leading marketing agencies, today it is a shade of that.

  2. Chetty: the Ivy League Likes Admission Applicants

    Did a subcontinental write this headline?

    Ivy League colleges (plus Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Duke)

    Okay college freaks. Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

    • Replies: @very old statistician
    @Polistra

    Georgetown, Duke, Rice, ALL OF THE MAJOR UCAL AND FLORIDA CAMPUSES ON NICE CAMPUSES, BYU which is for the swotter Mormons and Boise which is for Mormons who do not study like Asians when they are in high school, Northwest, Chicago, STONY BROOK , and did I mention Georgetown?

    Just kidding, that was a phony list.

    Here is the list you want. Go to a big law firm site. Type in the box where they say "school", any school with one and only one partner is not the school you are looking for.

    As far as technical schools go, well, if you think the average MIT grad can beat you in bridge or at blackjack, why do you care anyway? And if you think you can beat the average MIT grad at bridge or blackjack, why do you care anyway?

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Polistra


    Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

     

    If you're looking for global recognition/prestige, none of the above, except maybe Caltech. Caltech is no doubt academically rigorous, but it's also relatively small; MIT has better international name recognition, even though it's likely not as good.

    I might add Northwestern, but it's also fine to leave it off.

    Incidentally, after moving to Hong Kong many years ago, I discovered that many non-Americans assume that 'the Ivy League' includes Stanford, Chicago, and maybe Duke/Northwestern. They simply equate 'Ivy League' with 'the biggest-name US universities'. Some find extremely hard to process the fact that the association has to do with sports. This just doesn't compute outside the USA.

    There can be no liberal arts colleges on such a list internationally; they don't get the same respect as insitutions with 'university' in their names.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Intensifier

    , @Lot
    @Polistra

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Pericles, @Hibernian, @Ben tillman

    , @Jim Bob Lassiter
    @Polistra

    Elizabeth City State University?

    , @anon
    @Polistra

    Duke does not belong in the top twelve. It is a basketball team with a school attached. What is it known for academically? No one knows.

    Most people put the schools in these tiers:

    Tippy Top: HYPSM -- the 5 total crapshoots for even the most overqualified, unless they're hooked.

    Top ten: Ivies + Stanford + MIT

    Top twelve (IMO): UChicago, Caltech

    UChicago was not even in the top twenty just five years ago, and then they got a Jewish president and he started playing games. Chicago started using EA, ED, EDII to try to get lots of kids to apply and commit. They send out the most ridiculous amount of marketing material. Both my kids started getting promotional brochures from them in sophomore year. By junior year they were getting stuff from them monthly, huge colorful pop up cards for the school. In senior year they were getting brochures weekly, sometimes twice a week, reminding them to apply. This is a school that's seriously into marketing to bump up their rejection rate. One of my kids applied EA and got deferred, they wanted him to opt for EDII, he said no thanks, and he knew he was out, National Merit Scholar notwithstanding. They are definitely playing games to bump themselves up on USNews. It's hard for me to give them any respect. A school that is truly prestigious does not need to send out so much marketing material. HYSM never sent either of my kids anything. Princeton did for one of them, but only one letter.

  3. It’s something of a catenary curve, held up on both ends.


    It’s supported on the poor end by outreach and anti-white “affirmative action,” plus scholarships and other financial handouts that one must be below middle-class to receive. Elite institutions love that shit.

    On the rich end, it is held up by money and being “in the club.” Legacies, to some extent, but just being very rich helps. (Let’s say, for example, that your daddy is named Kushner and he “donates” five million bucks to Harvard. You are a mediocre son-of-a-criminal, but you get in.)

    Sure, there is also the fact that high IQs are more represented among higher incomes, but if that were proportional here, you would see more not-quite-so rich applicants get in from the middle of America. They would be white and very capable.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Buzz Mohawk


    It’s supported on the poor end by outreach and anti-white “affirmative action,” plus scholarships and other financial handouts that one must be below middle-class to receive. Elite institutions love that shit.

    On the rich end, it is held up by money and being “in the club.” Legacies, to some extent, but just being very rich helps.
     
    This is too true. We didn't exactly need The Data Raj to explain this to us.

    On end you've got the rich and connected; on the other you've got the beneficiaries of the rich and connected's noblesse oblige.

    These days even the upper-middle class are getting priced out of the Ivies, even if their kids can through some miracle get admitted.

    When we Calvinists started looking at universities for Daughter C a few years ago, it became obvious she was not wanted at the big-name private universities. We would have been left bearing the entire price of four years' attendance, which is a small fortune, at all such institutions.

    They all do the same thing in terms of financial aid:

    ---scholarships/awards for academic merit: nothing whatsoever

    ---scholarships/awards for having the right color skin/being properly 'disadvantaged': free ride

    There's not much else on offer.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Buzz Mohawk


    It’s something of a catenary curve, held up on both ends.

     

    Or bedbugs in the floorboards. And crawling up the wall.
  4. @Polistra

    Chetty: the Ivy League Likes Admission Applicants
     
    Did a subcontinental write this headline?

    Ivy League colleges (plus Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Duke)
     
    Okay college freaks. Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

    Replies: @very old statistician, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Lot, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @anon

    Georgetown, Duke, Rice, ALL OF THE MAJOR UCAL AND FLORIDA CAMPUSES ON NICE CAMPUSES, BYU which is for the swotter Mormons and Boise which is for Mormons who do not study like Asians when they are in high school, Northwest, Chicago, STONY BROOK , and did I mention Georgetown?

    Just kidding, that was a phony list.

    Here is the list you want. Go to a big law firm site. Type in the box where they say “school”, any school with one and only one partner is not the school you are looking for.

    As far as technical schools go, well, if you think the average MIT grad can beat you in bridge or at blackjack, why do you care anyway? And if you think you can beat the average MIT grad at bridge or blackjack, why do you care anyway?

    • Agree: JMcG
  5. High tuition. Very rich pay cash. The poor receive grants. Middle-income admits are price-sensitive/loan-averse.

    The graphs reflect those who the Ivy’s ultimately matriculate. Middle income admits are more likely to opt for less expensive, public colleges.

    Thus, B’s U-shape.

  6. @Polistra

    Chetty: the Ivy League Likes Admission Applicants
     
    Did a subcontinental write this headline?

    Ivy League colleges (plus Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Duke)
     
    Okay college freaks. Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

    Replies: @very old statistician, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Lot, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @anon

    Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

    If you’re looking for global recognition/prestige, none of the above, except maybe Caltech. Caltech is no doubt academically rigorous, but it’s also relatively small; MIT has better international name recognition, even though it’s likely not as good.

    I might add Northwestern, but it’s also fine to leave it off.

    Incidentally, after moving to Hong Kong many years ago, I discovered that many non-Americans assume that ‘the Ivy League’ includes Stanford, Chicago, and maybe Duke/Northwestern. They simply equate ‘Ivy League’ with ‘the biggest-name US universities’. Some find extremely hard to process the fact that the association has to do with sports. This just doesn’t compute outside the USA.

    There can be no liberal arts colleges on such a list internationally; they don’t get the same respect as insitutions with ‘university’ in their names.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    World Scholarship Liberal Arts College Best of all in America!

    https://i.ibb.co/xMqcrf1/15-Best-u.jpg

    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you'll find a surprising number of foreign students--often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn't do their homework very well.

    Supposedly the trend has reversed a bit, and fewer Chinese and Korean (and almost no Japanese) students are making the trek to our less illustrious institutions in recent years. I hope so, for their sake.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @ScarletNumber, @Paperback Writer

    , @Intensifier
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    100% correct.

    For Europe Ivy League simply means "most socially selective and most expensive"

    Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia MIT, Stanford and possibly Cornell. Chicago sounds too blue collar.

    They have never heard of Dartmouth or Brown.

    Replies: @Polistra, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Anonymous Jew

  7. Consistent with Brazil The Model. A strong stable middle class means the all-knowing oligarch cannot do whatever he wants to do.

  8. So, what happens when the path to advancement or even staying the same status for middle class people is blocked? All that Green status signalling and stern warnings from Greta Thunberg and some scowling black rapper won’t suffice.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Whiskey

    Interesting conflation. Elites have long wanted an end to class mobility, but environmentalists HATE HATE HATE the middle class, the American standard of living, and the material costs of class mobility (eg, a bigger car). What is going to happen? Nothing. We will be voiceless peasants and the current president illustrates the kind of concern and leadership we can expect.

  9. @Polistra

    Chetty: the Ivy League Likes Admission Applicants
     
    Did a subcontinental write this headline?

    Ivy League colleges (plus Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Duke)
     
    Okay college freaks. Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

    Replies: @very old statistician, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Lot, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @anon

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Lot


    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

     

    Yes, exactly. To add to my post above, where I noted that lots of non-Americans don't realize that Stanford, MIT, and Chicago aren't in the Ivy League: they are equally shocked to discover that Dartmouth and Cornell actually are IL.

    Replies: @Giant Duck, @AutoAdmit

    , @Pericles
    @Lot


    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

     

    It would appear to be easier to remember MC SYPH. Oh well.
    , @Hibernian
    @Lot

    Stanford/MIT/Chicago or Stanford/MIT/Columbia? (Probably Chicago because it's grouped with Stanford and MIT.) Isn't Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C? They both share the disadvantage of being in the inner city, although there has been increasing gentrification in recent years.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Ben tillman, @AutoAdmit

    , @Ben tillman
    @Lot

    MC for McDonalds?

  10. Anon[293] • Disclaimer says:

    So the Ivy League are still the schools of the élite but the poorest receive higher representation because of Affirmative Action and other such policies. The immediate follow-up would be: what is the racial breakdown of the students in that poorest quintile? I’d imagine we’d find some shockingly skewed results in favour of native Indians and Blacks, etc.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    There's an immense amount of data in Chetty's article, but I didn't see that, although it's so voluminous I might have overlooked it.

  11. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's something of a catenary curve, held up on both ends.


    https://uh.edu/engines/CD-GhostsInTheBooks/images/catenary.jpg

    It's supported on the poor end by outreach and anti-white "affirmative action," plus scholarships and other financial handouts that one must be below middle-class to receive. Elite institutions love that shit.

    On the rich end, it is held up by money and being "in the club." Legacies, to some extent, but just being very rich helps. (Let's say, for example, that your daddy is named Kushner and he "donates" five million bucks to Harvard. You are a mediocre son-of-a-criminal, but you get in.)

    Sure, there is also the fact that high IQs are more represented among higher incomes, but if that were proportional here, you would see more not-quite-so rich applicants get in from the middle of America. They would be white and very capable.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Reg Cæsar

    It’s supported on the poor end by outreach and anti-white “affirmative action,” plus scholarships and other financial handouts that one must be below middle-class to receive. Elite institutions love that shit.

    On the rich end, it is held up by money and being “in the club.” Legacies, to some extent, but just being very rich helps.

    This is too true. We didn’t exactly need The Data Raj to explain this to us.

    On end you’ve got the rich and connected; on the other you’ve got the beneficiaries of the rich and connected’s noblesse oblige.

    These days even the upper-middle class are getting priced out of the Ivies, even if their kids can through some miracle get admitted.

    When we Calvinists started looking at universities for Daughter C a few years ago, it became obvious she was not wanted at the big-name private universities. We would have been left bearing the entire price of four years’ attendance, which is a small fortune, at all such institutions.

    They all do the same thing in terms of financial aid:

    —scholarships/awards for academic merit: nothing whatsoever

    —scholarships/awards for having the right color skin/being properly ‘disadvantaged’: free ride

    There’s not much else on offer.

  12. @Anon
    So the Ivy League are still the schools of the élite but the poorest receive higher representation because of Affirmative Action and other such policies. The immediate follow-up would be: what is the racial breakdown of the students in that poorest quintile? I'd imagine we'd find some shockingly skewed results in favour of native Indians and Blacks, etc.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    There’s an immense amount of data in Chetty’s article, but I didn’t see that, although it’s so voluminous I might have overlooked it.

  13. My family was in the middle, not rich and not poor. So, unlike the rich students and the poor students, I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years. This was time not studying and not benefitting from other aspects of the college experience. Please don’t tell me I learned job discipline, because I learned that at other times. I thought someone should add, to the economist and university-treasurer perspectives, the pot-sink perspective.

    • Agree: Polistra, Hibernian
    • Replies: @E. Rekshun
    @SafeNow

    I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years.

    I was pumping gas and fixing flat tires in the brutal summer heat and freezing winter cold to pay my way through community college, undergrad, and grad school.

    My PhD sister and her medical doctor husband are delaying early retirement to (foolishly) pay $60K per year for their daughter's BA Psychology degree at Georgetown.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @ScarletNumber, @Polistra

    , @AnonAnon
    @SafeNow

    I had a dining hall dish washer work study job, too, my freshman year, earning minimum wage. Then I got A’s in calculus which enabled me to become a math tutor the following semester, for double minimum wage. The year after that I got engineering co-op jobs for triple minimum wage. I took away two things from my cafeteria worker days - a hatred of menial labor and the trick to core a head of iceberg lettuce like a pro.

  14. And here is some more Chetty data: top 100 colleges for patents per capita among his sample of younger alumni:

    Do you have a link for this? Based on the large number of what sound like “art” type schools on the list, e.g. College For Creative Studies (Detroit), Milwaukee Institute Of Art & Design, Rhode Island School Of Design, etc., it looks like he might be including both utility and design patents in his list. If so, that would be a pretty useless comparison. Utility patents are what most people are referring to when they talk about patents – it covers a new and non-obvious invention. A design patent is closer to trademark – it covers any non-functional design element of a product. As an example, here is a design patent on a dress:

  15. @Lot
    @Polistra

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Pericles, @Hibernian, @Ben tillman

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    Yes, exactly. To add to my post above, where I noted that lots of non-Americans don’t realize that Stanford, MIT, and Chicago aren’t in the Ivy League: they are equally shocked to discover that Dartmouth and Cornell actually are IL.

    • Replies: @Giant Duck
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    If they are shocked that Dartmouth and Cornell are in the Ivy League, I would guess that they've never even heard of Brown.

    , @AutoAdmit
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Except the “C” is for Caltech, not Chicago, in HYPSMC.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

  16. Isn’t the number of patents pretty surprising for most of the schools? MIT and Caltech are not surprising, but I had never really heard of Harvey Mudd College or College For Creative Studies (Detroit). I guess that’s my ignorance but I never hear their names mentioned.

    Harvard, Princeton and Yale came in lower than I expected – roughly around the University of Michigan. But those Ivy League schools are the hardest to get into. What am I missing? Is it just a bunch of business and political majors? And various social sciences that don’t get patents?

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @RichardTaylor

    Harvey Mudd is part of the Claremont consortium, and is actually pretty famous as a hard sciences/engineering school. Unfortunate name, though.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @stillCARealist

    , @Polistra
    @RichardTaylor

    Patents relate to a relatively small number of intellectual pursuits.


    Is it just a bunch of business and political majors?
     
    Even in our benighted age, there are students who major in things like History, English, Classics, Philosophy, Literature, and the Fine Arts. And of course there are the 'social sciences' as you mention.
  17. Steve, regarding your table of ‘rich kid colleges’: am I right in understanding that the institutions at the bottom of the list are actually the ultimate ‘rich kid colleges’, i.e. among the 50 listed, Penn is actually the best value (and hence the least ‘rich kid’) because its graduates make salaries that are closest to their parents’?

    • Agree: Redman
  18. @RichardTaylor
    Isn't the number of patents pretty surprising for most of the schools? MIT and Caltech are not surprising, but I had never really heard of Harvey Mudd College or College For Creative Studies (Detroit). I guess that's my ignorance but I never hear their names mentioned.

    Harvard, Princeton and Yale came in lower than I expected - roughly around the University of Michigan. But those Ivy League schools are the hardest to get into. What am I missing? Is it just a bunch of business and political majors? And various social sciences that don't get patents?

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Polistra

    Harvey Mudd is part of the Claremont consortium, and is actually pretty famous as a hard sciences/engineering school. Unfortunate name, though.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Mudd humbly bills itself as "the nation’s top liberal arts college of engineering, science and mathematics," but I had to look up Harvey Mudd himself to see who the heck he was. For a higher PR profile I'd suggest they rename themselves Harvey Milk, or Harcourt Fenton Mudd.


    https://keithroysdon.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/roger-c-carmel.jpg

    , @stillCARealist
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Very expensive, and very liberal. We visited and decided to cross it off the list for my very technical son (now about to graduate from a different university, which gave him a generous academic scholarship.)
    About the patents: remember, those three, Stanford, CalTech, Harvey Mudd are all about computers and programming. the patents may be mostly programs, not actual physical gadgets.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  19. @RichardTaylor
    Isn't the number of patents pretty surprising for most of the schools? MIT and Caltech are not surprising, but I had never really heard of Harvey Mudd College or College For Creative Studies (Detroit). I guess that's my ignorance but I never hear their names mentioned.

    Harvard, Princeton and Yale came in lower than I expected - roughly around the University of Michigan. But those Ivy League schools are the hardest to get into. What am I missing? Is it just a bunch of business and political majors? And various social sciences that don't get patents?

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Polistra

    Patents relate to a relatively small number of intellectual pursuits.

    Is it just a bunch of business and political majors?

    Even in our benighted age, there are students who major in things like History, English, Classics, Philosophy, Literature, and the Fine Arts. And of course there are the ‘social sciences’ as you mention.

  20. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Polistra


    Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

     

    If you're looking for global recognition/prestige, none of the above, except maybe Caltech. Caltech is no doubt academically rigorous, but it's also relatively small; MIT has better international name recognition, even though it's likely not as good.

    I might add Northwestern, but it's also fine to leave it off.

    Incidentally, after moving to Hong Kong many years ago, I discovered that many non-Americans assume that 'the Ivy League' includes Stanford, Chicago, and maybe Duke/Northwestern. They simply equate 'Ivy League' with 'the biggest-name US universities'. Some find extremely hard to process the fact that the association has to do with sports. This just doesn't compute outside the USA.

    There can be no liberal arts colleges on such a list internationally; they don't get the same respect as insitutions with 'university' in their names.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Intensifier

    World Scholarship Liberal Arts College Best of all in America!

    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you’ll find a surprising number of foreign students–often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn’t do their homework very well.

    Supposedly the trend has reversed a bit, and fewer Chinese and Korean (and almost no Japanese) students are making the trek to our less illustrious institutions in recent years. I hope so, for their sake.

    • Agree: Intensifier
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Polistra


    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you’ll find a surprising number of foreign students–often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn’t do their homework very well.

     

    I've got a couple of friends who worked in admissions for private liberal arts colleges of the perfectly-fine-but-not-exceptional ilk, of which the USA boasts such a precarious surfeit. They clued me in years ago as to just how valuable full-fee-paying overseas students are to a small college on a tight budget.

    Small college admissions offices will work very, very, very hard to convince even a handful of overseas students to sign up, including sending admissions officers on expensive international tours. One of my friends said taking even a couple such trips would be worth it if he could sign up just one international student.

    Christian colleges also try to make connections with students via church/denominational ties.

    Replies: @peterike

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Polistra

    As a life-long resident of New Jersey, I can tell you that William Paterson is considered to be a joke college, with the local residents ironically calling it "Harvard on the Hill". It did host one of Steve's College Bowl tournaments.

    I will say that I didn't realize Stevens graduates did so well financially.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Polistra

    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Reg Cæsar

  21. @Whiskey
    So, what happens when the path to advancement or even staying the same status for middle class people is blocked? All that Green status signalling and stern warnings from Greta Thunberg and some scowling black rapper won't suffice.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Interesting conflation. Elites have long wanted an end to class mobility, but environmentalists HATE HATE HATE the middle class, the American standard of living, and the material costs of class mobility (eg, a bigger car). What is going to happen? Nothing. We will be voiceless peasants and the current president illustrates the kind of concern and leadership we can expect.

  22. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Polistra


    Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

     

    If you're looking for global recognition/prestige, none of the above, except maybe Caltech. Caltech is no doubt academically rigorous, but it's also relatively small; MIT has better international name recognition, even though it's likely not as good.

    I might add Northwestern, but it's also fine to leave it off.

    Incidentally, after moving to Hong Kong many years ago, I discovered that many non-Americans assume that 'the Ivy League' includes Stanford, Chicago, and maybe Duke/Northwestern. They simply equate 'Ivy League' with 'the biggest-name US universities'. Some find extremely hard to process the fact that the association has to do with sports. This just doesn't compute outside the USA.

    There can be no liberal arts colleges on such a list internationally; they don't get the same respect as insitutions with 'university' in their names.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Intensifier

    100% correct.

    For Europe Ivy League simply means “most socially selective and most expensive”

    Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia MIT, Stanford and possibly Cornell. Chicago sounds too blue collar.

    They have never heard of Dartmouth or Brown.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Intensifier

    Funny you say that about Brown, because for many years Brown was known as the Eurotrash choice among the Ivies. Penn was always known as the "Jewish Ivy" but really they're all pretty Jewish.

    Incidentally, it's perfectly fine if the phrase "Ivy League" is taken to mean 'venerable' 'exclusive' or 'prestigious' and even if other colleges are believed to be Ivy League even if they're (strictly speaking) not. Though (as Calvinist says) the association is in its origins an athletic conference, I say let a hundred flowers bloom. Or at least a dozen or two.

    Replies: @animalogic, @Intensifier, @Redman

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Intensifier


    Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia MIT, Stanford and possibly Cornell. Chicago sounds too blue collar.
     
    I don't know about in Europe, but Chicago's reputation as an academic heavy-hitter is well-established here in Hong Kong.

    Cornell is an odd one, I agree. It's possible its overseas reputation maybe slightly exceeds its domestic one. I think its name might be better-established here because it's a (relatively) realistic choice for outstanding local students looking to go to a 'famous' US university.

    , @Anonymous Jew
    @Intensifier

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AKo71nYx3uo

  23. @Lot
    @Polistra

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Pericles, @Hibernian, @Ben tillman

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    It would appear to be easier to remember MC SYPH. Oh well.

  24. @Intensifier
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    100% correct.

    For Europe Ivy League simply means "most socially selective and most expensive"

    Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia MIT, Stanford and possibly Cornell. Chicago sounds too blue collar.

    They have never heard of Dartmouth or Brown.

    Replies: @Polistra, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Anonymous Jew

    Funny you say that about Brown, because for many years Brown was known as the Eurotrash choice among the Ivies. Penn was always known as the “Jewish Ivy” but really they’re all pretty Jewish.

    Incidentally, it’s perfectly fine if the phrase “Ivy League” is taken to mean ‘venerable’ ‘exclusive’ or ‘prestigious’ and even if other colleges are believed to be Ivy League even if they’re (strictly speaking) not. Though (as Calvinist says) the association is in its origins an athletic conference, I say let a hundred flowers bloom. Or at least a dozen or two.

    • Replies: @animalogic
    @Polistra

    In my ignorance I always thought "Ivy league" essentially referred to "old" private colleges, like Yale, Harvard etc (old buildings covered with..... Ivy?)
    Re the middle class (the class that binds a modern democracy together - why? Bc it has feelers, or "shoots" in classes both above & below) it's a sad fact that many of these colleges, such as Harvard, are so damn rich they don't need to charge ANY student tuition.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @That Would Be Telling

    , @Intensifier
    @Polistra

    Wooliness as to terms like this is commonplace.

    In the UK the terms "redbrick" and Russell Group are often used interchangeably to indicate those universities outside the Oxford/Cambridge elite who are nonetheless older and more prestigious than the post-1960s "degree factories" that exist around every other corner even though Oxford and Cambridge are both in the Russell Group and the Group includes places that are not strictly speaking redbrick

    Then we have the very old Scottish universities ( plus Trinity in Dublin ) who don't quite have the Oxbridge cachet but who are referred to as "ancient" to further distinguish themselves from the modern hoi polloi and what they see as arriviste redbricks.

    At the bottom of course it is all branding and marketing. Udemy oor Coursera is as good as any of them..

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    , @Redman
    @Polistra

    I had a lot of friends who went to Brown in the late 1980s when it was at it's peak. They said it was the only Ivy that didn't use "need blind" admissions, which resulted in the highest percentage of wealthy foreign students. Also a lot of children of Euro barons (e.g. Claus von Bulow) and other assorted royalty.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @anon

  25. Here are the highest paid alumni in terms of median income in their early thirties. The top of the list tend to be 6-year pharmaceutical programs so I’m not sure they should be counted as undergrad:

    Kid/Parent median
    Saint Louis College Of Pharmacy 133.6%

    It pays to be Eutectic. Ask Morty.

    Be a Eutectic! Smack it down, reflect it! Our scary pharmaceutic troll will smash you in his mortar bowl.

  26. @Intensifier
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    100% correct.

    For Europe Ivy League simply means "most socially selective and most expensive"

    Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia MIT, Stanford and possibly Cornell. Chicago sounds too blue collar.

    They have never heard of Dartmouth or Brown.

    Replies: @Polistra, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Anonymous Jew

    Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia MIT, Stanford and possibly Cornell. Chicago sounds too blue collar.

    I don’t know about in Europe, but Chicago’s reputation as an academic heavy-hitter is well-established here in Hong Kong.

    Cornell is an odd one, I agree. It’s possible its overseas reputation maybe slightly exceeds its domestic one. I think its name might be better-established here because it’s a (relatively) realistic choice for outstanding local students looking to go to a ‘famous’ US university.

  27. @Buzz Mohawk
    It's something of a catenary curve, held up on both ends.


    https://uh.edu/engines/CD-GhostsInTheBooks/images/catenary.jpg

    It's supported on the poor end by outreach and anti-white "affirmative action," plus scholarships and other financial handouts that one must be below middle-class to receive. Elite institutions love that shit.

    On the rich end, it is held up by money and being "in the club." Legacies, to some extent, but just being very rich helps. (Let's say, for example, that your daddy is named Kushner and he "donates" five million bucks to Harvard. You are a mediocre son-of-a-criminal, but you get in.)

    Sure, there is also the fact that high IQs are more represented among higher incomes, but if that were proportional here, you would see more not-quite-so rich applicants get in from the middle of America. They would be white and very capable.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Reg Cæsar

    It’s something of a catenary curve, held up on both ends.

    Or bedbugs in the floorboards. And crawling up the wall.

  28. The standard HBD view seems to be that the rest of us just have to take it on the chin when some autistic traitors who did well on the SAT decide to cheat us.

    However, I’m of the view that it only takes a certain threshold of intelligence to pretty much figure out how we’re being cheated. In fact, on issues like race, I’d say a majority know the truth. There are millions capable of organizing an effective resistance to what’s going on (partially because non-sociopaths cooperate better).

    • Thanks: Paul Jolliffe
    • Replies: @jon
    @RichardTaylor

    Tucker was on fire in that clip. He gets some shit for LARPing as a populist right winger when he comes from big money and has political connections, etc., but I don't care. He is the only guy on TV willing to even try saying the right things.

  29. @Polistra
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    World Scholarship Liberal Arts College Best of all in America!

    https://i.ibb.co/xMqcrf1/15-Best-u.jpg

    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you'll find a surprising number of foreign students--often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn't do their homework very well.

    Supposedly the trend has reversed a bit, and fewer Chinese and Korean (and almost no Japanese) students are making the trek to our less illustrious institutions in recent years. I hope so, for their sake.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @ScarletNumber, @Paperback Writer

    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you’ll find a surprising number of foreign students–often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn’t do their homework very well.

    I’ve got a couple of friends who worked in admissions for private liberal arts colleges of the perfectly-fine-but-not-exceptional ilk, of which the USA boasts such a precarious surfeit. They clued me in years ago as to just how valuable full-fee-paying overseas students are to a small college on a tight budget.

    Small college admissions offices will work very, very, very hard to convince even a handful of overseas students to sign up, including sending admissions officers on expensive international tours. One of my friends said taking even a couple such trips would be worth it if he could sign up just one international student.

    Christian colleges also try to make connections with students via church/denominational ties.

    • Replies: @peterike
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    They clued me in years ago as to just how valuable full-fee-paying overseas students are to a small college on a tight budget.
     
    Indeed. The last time I looked the number of Chinese students in America was something like 350,000. Think about that. And that doesn't include Indians, Arabs, whatever else. It's a national disgrace. No doubt the Corona panic has reduced numbers, but they will spring back pretty quickly. It seems every Indian I meet at work -- and there a loads of 'em -- has been to some American MBA program.

    The number of Chinese and Indian students in our colleges should be zero. Stephen Miller floated that to Trump -- cancelling all Chinese student visas -- but somebody else talked Trump out of it. Would have been a truly great move. Oh well.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

  30. @Polistra
    @Intensifier

    Funny you say that about Brown, because for many years Brown was known as the Eurotrash choice among the Ivies. Penn was always known as the "Jewish Ivy" but really they're all pretty Jewish.

    Incidentally, it's perfectly fine if the phrase "Ivy League" is taken to mean 'venerable' 'exclusive' or 'prestigious' and even if other colleges are believed to be Ivy League even if they're (strictly speaking) not. Though (as Calvinist says) the association is in its origins an athletic conference, I say let a hundred flowers bloom. Or at least a dozen or two.

    Replies: @animalogic, @Intensifier, @Redman

    In my ignorance I always thought “Ivy league” essentially referred to “old” private colleges, like Yale, Harvard etc (old buildings covered with….. Ivy?)
    Re the middle class (the class that binds a modern democracy together – why? Bc it has feelers, or “shoots” in classes both above & below) it’s a sad fact that many of these colleges, such as Harvard, are so damn rich they don’t need to charge ANY student tuition.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @animalogic

    I thought it was common knowledge, the name Ivy League should have clued you in that it is a college athletic conference. It was set up in 1954 so its eight members could all play each other in sports. It isn't necessarily the best eight schools in America. The fact that the Andy Bernard character on The Office is a Cornell alumnus wasn't an accident.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Hibernian, @animalogic

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @animalogic


    it’s a sad fact that many of these colleges, such as Harvard, are so damn rich they don’t need to charge ANY student tuition.
     
    Note before you can make such calculations you have to know how much of their endowments are earmarked for stuff that can't be used to cover tuition. At many if not most of these places including the one I attended tuition money is particularly prized because the institution can spend it in any what they want, whereas the money that's earmarked is often precisely so because the donors don't trust the administrators.

    See also the epic fight between Princeton and a family which donated money to be spent on its Wilson Center. You can be sure there's plenty more fudging where that came from, whereas the stringent way the donation for Harvard's Widner library was written is legend, and that general pot of money is also what's behind the swimming requirement of various of these institutions (technically the Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library, he died in the sinking of the Titanic).
  31. @RichardTaylor
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5xu32LnDyU

    The standard HBD view seems to be that the rest of us just have to take it on the chin when some autistic traitors who did well on the SAT decide to cheat us.

    However, I'm of the view that it only takes a certain threshold of intelligence to pretty much figure out how we're being cheated. In fact, on issues like race, I'd say a majority know the truth. There are millions capable of organizing an effective resistance to what's going on (partially because non-sociopaths cooperate better).

    Replies: @jon

    Tucker was on fire in that clip. He gets some shit for LARPing as a populist right winger when he comes from big money and has political connections, etc., but I don’t care. He is the only guy on TV willing to even try saying the right things.

  32. How come Chetty gets all this sweet data, and nobody else does?

    • Replies: @epebble
    @Barack Obama's secret Unz account

    Is there any evidence that some other scholar/researcher of some repute asked and was refused? Remember, these are anonymized data and the government likes to give it (at some cost of preparing it) per FOIA. Private entities - they may or may not give it to you based on their policies and preference. Plenty of other entities like Pew collect social science data from governments and produce reports. In fact, Pew's reports are a lot more incisive than anything Dr. Chetty produces.

  33. Don’t worry, TPTB are working furiously to make the Middle Class a thing of the past.

  34. Listened to a podcast presented by a New York private school guidance counsellor and it seems like one thing that is taken very seriously is working out exactly where a student fits for the purpose of using their Early Decision shot. More get taken by percentage due to the enrolment commitment which helps yield, but in theory only one is possible. So for many people good advice seems to be not to aim quite as high as you might think. And it is not just academic fit either. A school, even non scholarship, that needs a women’s lacrosse goalie, will be more likely to take an ED applicant who fulfils that need than someone who does not. And the kind of college this guy gave as an example is Colby. And looking at the list here it has quite wealthy parents. Colgate, Middlebury and Trinity (CT) could be similar on this list.

    I expect this kind of planning means wealthy families get a better result than a good student with less advice who might apply to Ivies when not quite up to the standard and ends up in their safety school.

  35. Does the data for average earnings in early 30’s have any detail behind it? Does it only include people working full time, or is it reduced by people doing masters degrees, working part time, stay at home parents etc?

    Either way, it doesn’t seem a good advert for spending big bucks on education assuming cheaper decent instate options are available.

  36. @Lot
    @Polistra

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Pericles, @Hibernian, @Ben tillman

    Stanford/MIT/Chicago or Stanford/MIT/Columbia? (Probably Chicago because it’s grouped with Stanford and MIT.) Isn’t Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C? They both share the disadvantage of being in the inner city, although there has been increasing gentrification in recent years.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Hibernian


    Isn't Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C?
     
    My impression has always been no, not quite.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Unladen Swallow

    , @Ben tillman
    @Hibernian

    It seems that C is Caltech.

    , @AutoAdmit
    @Hibernian

    Caltech. (See: proximity to “M” in the list.)

    The usage on the college admissions discussion boards is generally either “HYPS” (for those not interested in science and engineering) or “HYPSMC” (for those who are).

  37. @Polistra
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    World Scholarship Liberal Arts College Best of all in America!

    https://i.ibb.co/xMqcrf1/15-Best-u.jpg

    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you'll find a surprising number of foreign students--often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn't do their homework very well.

    Supposedly the trend has reversed a bit, and fewer Chinese and Korean (and almost no Japanese) students are making the trek to our less illustrious institutions in recent years. I hope so, for their sake.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @ScarletNumber, @Paperback Writer

    As a life-long resident of New Jersey, I can tell you that William Paterson is considered to be a joke college, with the local residents ironically calling it “Harvard on the Hill”. It did host one of Steve’s College Bowl tournaments.

    I will say that I didn’t realize Stevens graduates did so well financially.

    • Agree: kaganovitch
  38. @Hibernian
    @Lot

    Stanford/MIT/Chicago or Stanford/MIT/Columbia? (Probably Chicago because it's grouped with Stanford and MIT.) Isn't Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C? They both share the disadvantage of being in the inner city, although there has been increasing gentrification in recent years.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Ben tillman, @AutoAdmit

    Isn’t Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C?

    My impression has always been no, not quite.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Its now where NEAR as rigorous if thats what you mean.

    U Chicago only has about 2K undergrads but about 4k post grad students and sort of post doc faculty.


    UC biz school has one or two single billion guys that no one on here would have heard of.

    And no yo do not want to be anywhere near there.

    , @Unladen Swallow
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    I know Columbia was in the doldrums from the late 1960's until at least the mid 1990's in terms of prestige, there were years in which they took half the students that applied. Their decline and bounce back coincided pretty closely with NYC's rise and then fall of violent crime.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  39. @animalogic
    @Polistra

    In my ignorance I always thought "Ivy league" essentially referred to "old" private colleges, like Yale, Harvard etc (old buildings covered with..... Ivy?)
    Re the middle class (the class that binds a modern democracy together - why? Bc it has feelers, or "shoots" in classes both above & below) it's a sad fact that many of these colleges, such as Harvard, are so damn rich they don't need to charge ANY student tuition.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @That Would Be Telling

    I thought it was common knowledge, the name Ivy League should have clued you in that it is a college athletic conference. It was set up in 1954 so its eight members could all play each other in sports. It isn’t necessarily the best eight schools in America. The fact that the Andy Bernard character on The Office is a Cornell alumnus wasn’t an accident.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @ScarletNumber

    It's not common knowledge. Swear. But it clears up a lot. I've always wondered why Brown is "Ivy League" and Stanford/Duke aren't.

    So, there are eight Ivies and seven Seven Sisters (back when they were women's colleges). Which Ivy was the bachelor? Did people gossip?

    Thanks.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Hibernian
    @ScarletNumber

    Cornell is not a diploma mill.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Abolish_public_education

    , @animalogic
    @ScarletNumber

    I'm Australian, so I miss a lot of fine detail about the US (Australia too, I wouldn't be surprised!)

  40. Any data on who exactly these middle class admits are either? I’ve noticed in my social circle that kids of college profs do better at the college admin game than I would expect. Lots of bright people with bright kids in random US locales and making middle class $.

  41. @Lot
    @Polistra

    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Pericles, @Hibernian, @Ben tillman

    MC for McDonalds?

  42. @Luke Lea
    Playing the two ends against the middle? Maybe it's good that the smart kids in Red State America are staying at home instead of being siphoned off to Cambridge. Charles Murray would probably say so.

    Replies: @Guest007, @indocon

    Staying at home means falling of the track of affect finance, politics, healthcare, etc in the future.

  43. Everyone should understand the difference between normally distributed career fields versus log-normal career fields. Pharmacy, physical therapy, chemical engineering are normally distributed career fields where the starting pay is great but one gets the job by having the credential. A log-normal career field is something like law where a few lawyers make a fortune, 50% of law school graduates never practice, and there is a field in the middle.

    Remember the difference between lawyers and physicians is that there are paralegal job adds that say no attorneys need applying but there are no nursing job adds that say physicians need not apply.

  44. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Lot


    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

     

    Yes, exactly. To add to my post above, where I noted that lots of non-Americans don't realize that Stanford, MIT, and Chicago aren't in the Ivy League: they are equally shocked to discover that Dartmouth and Cornell actually are IL.

    Replies: @Giant Duck, @AutoAdmit

    If they are shocked that Dartmouth and Cornell are in the Ivy League, I would guess that they’ve never even heard of Brown.

  45. @animalogic
    @Polistra

    In my ignorance I always thought "Ivy league" essentially referred to "old" private colleges, like Yale, Harvard etc (old buildings covered with..... Ivy?)
    Re the middle class (the class that binds a modern democracy together - why? Bc it has feelers, or "shoots" in classes both above & below) it's a sad fact that many of these colleges, such as Harvard, are so damn rich they don't need to charge ANY student tuition.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @That Would Be Telling

    it’s a sad fact that many of these colleges, such as Harvard, are so damn rich they don’t need to charge ANY student tuition.

    Note before you can make such calculations you have to know how much of their endowments are earmarked for stuff that can’t be used to cover tuition. At many if not most of these places including the one I attended tuition money is particularly prized because the institution can spend it in any what they want, whereas the money that’s earmarked is often precisely so because the donors don’t trust the administrators.

    See also the epic fight between Princeton and a family which donated money to be spent on its Wilson Center. You can be sure there’s plenty more fudging where that came from, whereas the stringent way the donation for Harvard’s Widner library was written is legend, and that general pot of money is also what’s behind the swimming requirement of various of these institutions (technically the Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library, he died in the sinking of the Titanic).

  46. @Polistra
    @Intensifier

    Funny you say that about Brown, because for many years Brown was known as the Eurotrash choice among the Ivies. Penn was always known as the "Jewish Ivy" but really they're all pretty Jewish.

    Incidentally, it's perfectly fine if the phrase "Ivy League" is taken to mean 'venerable' 'exclusive' or 'prestigious' and even if other colleges are believed to be Ivy League even if they're (strictly speaking) not. Though (as Calvinist says) the association is in its origins an athletic conference, I say let a hundred flowers bloom. Or at least a dozen or two.

    Replies: @animalogic, @Intensifier, @Redman

    Wooliness as to terms like this is commonplace.

    In the UK the terms “redbrick” and Russell Group are often used interchangeably to indicate those universities outside the Oxford/Cambridge elite who are nonetheless older and more prestigious than the post-1960s “degree factories” that exist around every other corner even though Oxford and Cambridge are both in the Russell Group and the Group includes places that are not strictly speaking redbrick

    Then we have the very old Scottish universities ( plus Trinity in Dublin ) who don’t quite have the Oxbridge cachet but who are referred to as “ancient” to further distinguish themselves from the modern hoi polloi and what they see as arriviste redbricks.

    At the bottom of course it is all branding and marketing. Udemy oor Coursera is as good as any of them..

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Intensifier


    In the UK the terms “redbrick” and Russell Group are often used interchangeably to indicate those universities outside the Oxford/Cambridge elite who are nonetheless older and more prestigious than the post-1960s “degree factories” that exist around every other corner even though Oxford and Cambridge are both in the Russell Group and the Group includes places that are not strictly speaking redbrick

     

    When we were looking at UK universities for Daughter C, we ran into these categories, and just gave up trying to sort them out. In any case, the distinction between 'has always been a university' and 'used to be a poly' is easier to identify and apply.
  47. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Polistra


    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you’ll find a surprising number of foreign students–often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn’t do their homework very well.

     

    I've got a couple of friends who worked in admissions for private liberal arts colleges of the perfectly-fine-but-not-exceptional ilk, of which the USA boasts such a precarious surfeit. They clued me in years ago as to just how valuable full-fee-paying overseas students are to a small college on a tight budget.

    Small college admissions offices will work very, very, very hard to convince even a handful of overseas students to sign up, including sending admissions officers on expensive international tours. One of my friends said taking even a couple such trips would be worth it if he could sign up just one international student.

    Christian colleges also try to make connections with students via church/denominational ties.

    Replies: @peterike

    They clued me in years ago as to just how valuable full-fee-paying overseas students are to a small college on a tight budget.

    Indeed. The last time I looked the number of Chinese students in America was something like 350,000. Think about that. And that doesn’t include Indians, Arabs, whatever else. It’s a national disgrace. No doubt the Corona panic has reduced numbers, but they will spring back pretty quickly. It seems every Indian I meet at work — and there a loads of ’em — has been to some American MBA program.

    The number of Chinese and Indian students in our colleges should be zero. Stephen Miller floated that to Trump — cancelling all Chinese student visas — but somebody else talked Trump out of it. Would have been a truly great move. Oh well.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @peterike


    The last time I looked the number of Chinese students in America was something like 350,000. Think about that.

     

    Yes. If you figure each of those students is paying on average, oh, let's say 60K/year for tuition/room and board/fees/etc., then that's 21 billion USD a year flowing into the US higher ed sector. That's good money, all right.

    But after doing that calculation, I looked up Harvard's current endowment: 42 billion. Harvard could pay an entire year's tuition and fees for all 350K Chinese students in the USA and still have half of their endowment left over, which is certainly more endowment than they'll ever need.

    The time for busting up the barely-veiled wealth machines to which the Ivies are attached like lampreys is long past.

  48. Wealthy parents + low-salaried kids = exclusive girls’ school. Someone else is underwriting their “careers”

  49. I have to wonder if some portion of the current cultural movement to remove standardized testing, supposedly on behalf of blacks, is actually primarily motivated by rich parents who see that their middling children can’t compete with smart middle class whites and Asians in a meritocratic process. I think in decades past, there were quite few middle class kids who made the effort to apply to elite schools, so the children of the elite had less competition. Now with more and more interest in elite colleges, the rich kids cannot maintain their expected access to wire institutions.

    It’s in their interest to remove the SAT requirement so colleges are forced to weigh extracurriculars more, which is the area where wealth can most easily buy an advantage, such as trips with the NYT to Peru.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Spangel12


    I have to wonder if some portion of the current cultural movement to remove standardized testing, supposedly on behalf of blacks, is actually primarily motivated by rich parents who see that their middling children can’t compete with smart middle class whites and Asians in a meritocratic process....
     
    This sort of thing is covered quite extensively with lots of useful citations in our very own Ron Unz's "The Myth of American Meritocracy; How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?" Eight years old but as far as I know even more accurate and useful today.
  50. @Hibernian
    @Lot

    Stanford/MIT/Chicago or Stanford/MIT/Columbia? (Probably Chicago because it's grouped with Stanford and MIT.) Isn't Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C? They both share the disadvantage of being in the inner city, although there has been increasing gentrification in recent years.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Ben tillman, @AutoAdmit

    It seems that C is Caltech.

    • Agree: Lot
  51. Anonymous[138] • Disclaimer says:

    Chetty’s use of score cut-offs is very tricky.

    One chart uses 1300+ and the other 1400+. If you are are an un-hooked non-URM (under represented minority — which really boils down to being black, as hispanics get a boost but not much of one, and there are too few native American applicants to these schools to matter), you are not getting into any school on that list with 1400 on your SATs. Yes, the average may be 1400, but not for white kids without a sob story. And it’s way, way harder to get in with a given set of stats if you are Asian. And it’s way harder than that if you are an actual Asian applying from China or India.

    Building a chart which uses an SAT score 1300 as a cut-off for “competitive” for this group of colleges is absurd to the point of being disingenuous.

    A huge question even in his in his more granular chart is how the distribution of scores in the 1400 – 1600 range vary along his income spectrum. That is, it may be that the average SAT score in the upper income percentiles is much, much higher than in lower percentiles. A simple way to address this would be to use a cut-off of 1500 or even 1550, which is a more realistic estimate of what you need to be in serious consideration for HYPSMC without some huge hook.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Anonymous


    That is, it may be that the average SAT score in the upper income percentiles is much, much higher than in lower percentiles. A simple way to address this would be to use a cut-off of 1500 or even 1550, which is a more realistic estimate of what you need to be in serious consideration for HYPSMC without some huge hook.

     

    This is absolutely true, except that it's worse than you think.

    I've got a friend here who runs a consultancy business trying to get Chinese kids into top US and UK universities. He told me that a white or Asian kid applying to the HYPSMC apex stands little chance of getting a second look with an SAT under 1570, even if that kid is a typically outstanding applicant with all of the requisite APs/IB, stratospheric GPA, broad and deep extracurriculars, service/volunteering, etc.

    If you're the wrong color, to be admitted you have to be rich and connected, play a position that a university sports team needs, or have some incredible 'hook', like winning a national-level (or even international-level) musical or academic competition of sufficient prestige, or founding an NGO or business that gains significant coverage in the mainstream media, etc.

  52. That pretty much confirms my personal experience (two kids with Perfect GPAs, lots of APs all with maximum grades, National merit, and perfect SAT). Some extra-curricular. White and male. The first one applied to a couple of Ivies (one top early application, the second more marginal). He wasn’t admitted to either in spite of literally perfect academic. All black and female Muslim students in his magnet HS program while no as good academically were admitted to Ivies usually with generous scholarships. Princeton used to be a bit more meritocratic than Harvard or Yale until two years ago when admitted a significantly increased record number of NAMs admitted and trumpeted this as a major achievement.

    I suspect that one consideration in admission decisions is that given our level of household income, we were not going to have any financial aid at all, but with more than two kids, full tuition to Ivies would have been a significant financial burden. We were in fact not prepared to pay full tuition and I assume they have a prediction model (they ask for detailed income and assets info on the parents of applicants so have some good idea of the willingness to pay) and really don’t want to admit applicants who are likely to decline. Hence the focus on the kids of really wealthy parents or on really poor (preferably NAMs) on which they spend their financial aid.

    Our second kid only applied to two State Universities.
    I am not bitter, both kids have full tuition in a good State U and I was never prepared to willingly pay a lot of money to the parasitic progressive university bureaucracies. My older son says after talking to former classmates who went to Ivies, is that the Curriculum and level of efforts in Ivies are on average significantly less demanding than for STEM programs in State Universities at the undergraduate level. The value of Ivy degrees is really just signaling based on the selection. By making the selection less rigorous for a growing share of students, they will somewhat devalue their brand, especially for the lower tier. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton would have to really screw up to stop being valuable global brands. Not so sure for Brown or Rice.

  53. What in the hell is the College for Creative Studies?

  54. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @RichardTaylor

    Harvey Mudd is part of the Claremont consortium, and is actually pretty famous as a hard sciences/engineering school. Unfortunate name, though.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @stillCARealist

    Mudd humbly bills itself as “the nation’s top liberal arts college of engineering, science and mathematics,” but I had to look up Harvey Mudd himself to see who the heck he was. For a higher PR profile I’d suggest they rename themselves Harvey Milk, or Harcourt Fenton Mudd.

  55. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @RichardTaylor

    Harvey Mudd is part of the Claremont consortium, and is actually pretty famous as a hard sciences/engineering school. Unfortunate name, though.

    Replies: @Known Fact, @stillCARealist

    Very expensive, and very liberal. We visited and decided to cross it off the list for my very technical son (now about to graduate from a different university, which gave him a generous academic scholarship.)
    About the patents: remember, those three, Stanford, CalTech, Harvey Mudd are all about computers and programming. the patents may be mostly programs, not actual physical gadgets.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @stillCARealist


    About the patents: remember, those three, Stanford, CalTech, Harvey Mudd are all about computers and programming. the patents may be mostly programs, not actual physical gadgets.
     
    I don't know about Harvey Mudd, but while Stanford is one of the world's four top computer science schools (along with UC Berkeley, CMU, and MIT), it does a lot of world class science, and unless Caltech has radically changed since the last time I checked, it's a science school with some really serious engineering departments, and a computer science program that's probably too small to get it highly ranked, although I'm a lot more familiar with its undergraduate program than its graduate ones. So there's going to be plenty of patents on processes as well as concrete things like "physical gadgets."

    For something a bit more concrete than my impressions of these schools far away from me, US News and World Report ranks these two schools plus MIT, UC Berkeley, and Harvard at the top in biology graduate programs. Chemistry the same set, but with Caltech not unexpectedly at the top without a tie, the rest one tenth point below. Physics about the same, with Princeton tying three of these one tenth point below. For computer science Caltech gets an 11th place rank far below the first and second tier schools (with lots of rank ties), although that doesn't mean they don't do good and patentable work, just don't know, academic CS isn't really a field I follow. Not generally patentable is math, where Princeton is #1, then the other five schools except Caltech is some distance down at #9 with lots of ties.

    For overall engineering, note some of these include ties, Stanford ranks #2, Caltech #4, ditto EE and MechE. AeroAstro Caltech #1, Stanford #3, ChemE Caltech is #2, Stanford #4, Civil Engineering Stanford is #4, Caltech's program which doesn't offer an undergraduate degree doesn't place. Materials Engineering Stanford #4, Caltech #7.

    Why are these schools so good, and how do they stay so good? I don't know for these ones, but the TL;DR for MIT is a lot of oversight and power placed in committees made of outsiders to the extent they aren't currently active members of the MIT community. Tenure only goes to those who are #1 or 2 in their subfield, maybe 3, and they must be adequate teachers, and with extremely rare exceptions they teach all the classes. No adjunct professors with a very few exceptions that prove the rule like SF author Joe Halderman, author of The Forever War, otherwise all are tenured or tenure track.

    Harvard I know less about, but being Harvard they do the sort of thing you'd expect, junior facility are hired with the understanding they're very unlikely to become full professors and finish their careers at the school. For full professors Harvard just makes offers to the very best people they can lure to it, in this it's very unlike any other research university I know anything about, frankly doesn't sound collegial.
  56. I’ve never even heard of Landmark College. What’s wrong with me?

    • Replies: @Eric Liddell
    @Paperback Writer

    Landmark is a college in Vermont that caters to students with learning disabilities which explains their ranking in Chetty’s table.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  57. @ScarletNumber
    @animalogic

    I thought it was common knowledge, the name Ivy League should have clued you in that it is a college athletic conference. It was set up in 1954 so its eight members could all play each other in sports. It isn't necessarily the best eight schools in America. The fact that the Andy Bernard character on The Office is a Cornell alumnus wasn't an accident.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Hibernian, @animalogic

    It’s not common knowledge. Swear. But it clears up a lot. I’ve always wondered why Brown is “Ivy League” and Stanford/Duke aren’t.

    So, there are eight Ivies and seven Seven Sisters (back when they were women’s colleges). Which Ivy was the bachelor? Did people gossip?

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Paperback Writer


    Which Ivy was the bachelor?
     
    Cornell was always co-ed, plus then-all-girls Elmira was right down Route 13.

    This emphasizes my point that Cornell is the oddball of the Ivies, as Rutgers was still all-male at the time the Ivy League was founded, with Douglass as its sister school.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Hibernian

  58. @SafeNow
    My family was in the middle, not rich and not poor. So, unlike the rich students and the poor students, I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years. This was time not studying and not benefitting from other aspects of the college experience. Please don’t tell me I learned job discipline, because I learned that at other times. I thought someone should add, to the economist and university-treasurer perspectives, the pot-sink perspective.

    Replies: @E. Rekshun, @AnonAnon

    I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years.

    I was pumping gas and fixing flat tires in the brutal summer heat and freezing winter cold to pay my way through community college, undergrad, and grad school.

    My PhD sister and her medical doctor husband are delaying early retirement to (foolishly) pay $60K per year for their daughter’s BA Psychology degree at Georgetown.

    • Thanks: SafeNow
    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @E. Rekshun

    By any chance, did you study applied science at a state university? If so, you were had.

    Those institutions were established, political considerations aside, in order to provide ~100% free-rides to such technicians, i.e. the economy building laborers of the future. Yep.

    At the outset, money (from land sales) was set aside, in tax-free, perpetual trust, to forever cover the cost of teaching such students.

    The liberal arts majors are the ones who should’ve been scrubbing the pots, if they should have even been admitted to the school in the first place.

    Nowadays, applied science majors pay some of the highest tuition rates in the school, and scholarships accrue to numb skull jocks who couldn’t care less about science.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @E. Rekshun

    Not that this would dissuade them, but a BA in Psychology is useless, even from Georgetown. Ideally she will parlay it into a school hiring her as a GA while she gets her MA. The rule of thumb is that if you are paying for graduate school, you are doing it wrong. The school should be paying you.

    In any event, if she is pretty and can get her MRS degree, more power to her.

    , @Polistra
    @E. Rekshun

    Ugh about your sister and her husband. I feel strongly that if you can't get a good private school to foot all or most of the bill (presuming you need the help) you're better off attending a good state school. Of course this assumes you're a resident of one of the several states which have good state schools. If you're not, and you have kids approaching college age, you should probably move.


    Heck, why not another list. UCLA, Cal, Virginia, NC, Michigan, maybe Texas, maybe Georgia Tech.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JMcG

  59. @Polistra
    @Intensifier

    Funny you say that about Brown, because for many years Brown was known as the Eurotrash choice among the Ivies. Penn was always known as the "Jewish Ivy" but really they're all pretty Jewish.

    Incidentally, it's perfectly fine if the phrase "Ivy League" is taken to mean 'venerable' 'exclusive' or 'prestigious' and even if other colleges are believed to be Ivy League even if they're (strictly speaking) not. Though (as Calvinist says) the association is in its origins an athletic conference, I say let a hundred flowers bloom. Or at least a dozen or two.

    Replies: @animalogic, @Intensifier, @Redman

    I had a lot of friends who went to Brown in the late 1980s when it was at it’s peak. They said it was the only Ivy that didn’t use “need blind” admissions, which resulted in the highest percentage of wealthy foreign students. Also a lot of children of Euro barons (e.g. Claus von Bulow) and other assorted royalty.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Redman


    went to Brown in the late 1980s... a lot of children of Euro barons (e.g. Claus von Bulow) and other assorted royalty
     
    Plus JFK Jr 🙂
    , @anon
    @Redman

    According to Daniel Golden in Price of Admission, no one took Brown seriously until JFK Jr. enrolled, I think in the 80's. His grades weren't good enough for Harvard, despite the heavy family connection. Since then Brown started recruiting heavily from Europe and Hollywood. Lots of rich/royalty/celebrity kids love Brown because it doesn't have a core curriculum. All other Ivies require you to take minimum a math and a science (any science) class, not Brown. You never have to see math or science again if you don't wish to.

    Stanford requires at least 1 year of physics and math to graduate. Nearly 60% of Stanford grads graduate with a STEM degree each year, compared to less than 30% (and mostly Biology) at HYP. Columbia has a core curriculum that requires heavy reading. Princeton is known as the most academically rigorous Ivy with the least grade inflation, but it also has a clubby reputation with some eating clubs serving as networking grounds for jobs on Wall Street. Cornell is probably the most known for STEM among Ivies. Brown and Yale are the weakest for STEM among Ivies, and most liberal.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  60. Are trust fund withdrawals taxable income? Having no income doesn’t necessarily mean that you are poor. These low-income admitted may simply come from families wealthy enough to not need income.

  61. @Intensifier
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    100% correct.

    For Europe Ivy League simply means "most socially selective and most expensive"

    Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia MIT, Stanford and possibly Cornell. Chicago sounds too blue collar.

    They have never heard of Dartmouth or Brown.

    Replies: @Polistra, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Anonymous Jew

  62. Anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:

    I’ve been patently waiting for a Populist Southerner governor like George Wallace to make a huge issue about de-certifying really bad Lib Leftist Ivy League colleges from his state.

    Just make it reality that the states of Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky no longer recognize any degrees from Harvard, Yale, Brown, Colgate etc.

    Why stress and moan about all the ridiculous Lib Leftist cult marxist nonsense being pushed at these long dead Ivy League schools.

    Go with the idea:

    Fine, you want to think like Elizabeth Warren or drink like a young George W Bush – OK, you better stay the rest of your life in Cambridge MA, New Haven CT slums, because your degrees aren’t worth anything in fly over Midwest and Southern States.

    It’s been the exact opposite that yokels in places like Texas and Tennessee have shameless pandered to these Ivy League degrees Texas having been handed over to the Bush family.

  63. So, the system is working. Keep those social climbers in the 2nd quintile in their place!

  64. @Barack Obama's secret Unz account
    How come Chetty gets all this sweet data, and nobody else does?

    Replies: @epebble

    Is there any evidence that some other scholar/researcher of some repute asked and was refused? Remember, these are anonymized data and the government likes to give it (at some cost of preparing it) per FOIA. Private entities – they may or may not give it to you based on their policies and preference. Plenty of other entities like Pew collect social science data from governments and produce reports. In fact, Pew’s reports are a lot more incisive than anything Dr. Chetty produces.

  65. @Polistra
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    World Scholarship Liberal Arts College Best of all in America!

    https://i.ibb.co/xMqcrf1/15-Best-u.jpg

    At many second- and third-rate colleges in the USA, you'll find a surprising number of foreign students--often Asian. They did their homework trying to figure out where to attend, but they didn't do their homework very well.

    Supposedly the trend has reversed a bit, and fewer Chinese and Korean (and almost no Japanese) students are making the trek to our less illustrious institutions in recent years. I hope so, for their sake.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @ScarletNumber, @Paperback Writer

    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Paperback Writer


    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.
     
    I am very biased, but it's my understanding MIT as "MIT" (when is it or Caltech referred to as something else unless it's a formal thing?) has achieved a world wide reputation in the last three or so decades. Caltech for undergraduates is a very small, ~250 students per class, very specialized very science focused program with core science and math requirements ~2/3rds longer than MIT's, and at least for math a lot harder, you start with one of the proof based calculus texts.

    If you want to become a scientist, I suppose you won't necessarily learn about it until middle school or so as I did when I read Have Space Suit, Will Travel which has one hidden agenda of telling you what you need to learn to get into it, as well as correctly describing its rejection letter as being very nice.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Paperback Writer

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Paperback Writer


    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?
     
    The Gits, the Nits, the Clits, and the Mitts.
  66. The list of colleges that do a bad job of getting their grads up to higher income levels by their early 30s is dominated by art schools and wok-ish liberal arts colleges (predictable), as well as devout Evangelical/Catholic/Mormon colleges like BYU, Samford, Belmont and Franciscan. In the latter case, these will have high numbers of female grads who drop out of the full-time workforce by their early 30s because they’ve married and had kids. If Chetty’s taking the median of all graduates’ individual income, he’ll get low ratios for these kind of schools.

  67. Here are a few sort-of relevant thoughts I’ve been meaning to send to Steve.

    [1] It is stunning how _little_ difference in median income it makes going to an elite college. Even data regarding mid-career 90th percentile incomes (near $200k for many schools) shows that going to Harvard doesn’t make a qualitative difference compared with many other colleges.

    [2] The true economic value of going to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Stanford (HYPS) is that you can major in what used to be called the humanities and still get the Goldman/LBO/hedge fund job that puts you on the path toward membership in our Financial Disservices Oligarchy. Recruits from other colleges need to know something (e.g., data science or engineering) or someone (e.g., Dad’s friend from the Knickerbocker Club).

    [3] Third, there are elite colleges and then there are elite colleges.

    There are six undergraduate institutions who have long been a cut above all the rest, with Harvard of course being primus inter pales: Caltech, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Princeton, and Stanford, or what I’ve longed called the CHYMPS (pronounced “chimps”).

    The best way to see this would be to count the percentage of each college’s class that are among the 2000 (or 2500?) National Merit _Scholars_ (not just Finalists, and not recipients of ‘sponsored’ scholarships). Each of the CHYMPS has long had about 9%-14% of its matriculants qualify as full National Merit Scholars. The next level of top-flight schools (e.g., Duke or Columbia) would be closer to 5%. In recent years, Caltech, Harvard, and MIT have pulled away a bit (clustered closer to 14%) from Princeton, Stanford, and Yale (clustered closer to 9%). Duke (about 7%) is now nipping at their heels.

    [4] I believe one major factor in the decline of bright (lower-)middle class White kids at places like CHYMPS, and particularly at HYPS, was the re-centering of the SAT circa 1996.

    Back in the ’70s and ’80s, as the dean of a very elite HYP-feeder prep school told a crowd of us once, the single most important piece of information about an applicant was his SAT Verbal score. This was probably because
    (i) college work back then was more ‘verbal’ and less quantitative than college work today,
    (ii) the SAT Verbal had the highest ‘ceiling’ of any widely taken standardized test,
    (iii) the SAT Verbal was the hardest to improve with coaching, and
    (iv) the SAT Verbal had sub-scores for Analogies and Reading Comprehension, and the Analogies section might have been the most g-loaded component of the entire SAT. Apparently top schools cared about those sub-scores then, or the College Board would not have generated them.

    During that halcyon era, Harvard used to say, undoubtedly with some exaggeration, that they ignored SATs (Math or Verbal) _unless_ they were below 550 or above 750.

    Thus, the _one_ thing that a poor or middle class white kid from a mediocre high school could do to demonstrate he had the intellectual ability to do well at HYPS was to score over 750 on the SAT Verbal.

    In time, the Analogies section was removed. In 1996, the SAT was ‘re-centered’. The Math scores were raised slightly. But the Verbal scores were raised so much that anything over 730 under the old test would register as an 800. Presto: SAT Verbal scores over 750 no longer ‘existed’.

    One can imagine how grateful colleges were that they could advance “diversity” and fund-raising without ever being put in the awkward position of _knowingly_ rejecting potential intellectual outliers because they were White and would need financial aid.

    This is just one of many examples of how social engineering ostensibly designed to advance “fairness” and “equality” is actually designed to divide the proles and protect the one percent of the one percent.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Michael Humphreys

    And of course the Verbal score emphasis favors Jews, which explains the heavy Jewish enrollment in the Ivy League.

    They've also formed an important network. In my analysis of Forbes 400 richest, 140/400 are Jews. They concentrate in 5 industries: Finance, Real Estate, Retail, Casinos, Pharma; in 4 geographic areas; NY, FL, CA and to a lesser extent, IL (Chicago area). And many attended HYUC among the Ivies (U for UPenn-Wharton), plus NYU.

    Duke was not seen as a serious school until the early 2000's, when they became popular for children of the wealthy from the Chicago area, mostly Jews. It's reputation is still more regional than national. Most people outside the East/Southeast don't know much about Duke.

  68. @Luke Lea
    Playing the two ends against the middle? Maybe it's good that the smart kids in Red State America are staying at home instead of being siphoned off to Cambridge. Charles Murray would probably say so.

    Replies: @Guest007, @indocon

    Staying home means you are missing out being on the stage where you can have impact commensurate with your abilities, with consolidation whole company HQs are moving to the coast leaving only rump operations in the middle. Think of a city like St. Louis, two decades ago it wassail a place to be for young aspiring professionals, HQ of companies like AB and leading marketing agencies, today it is a shade of that.

  69. @Spangel12
    I have to wonder if some portion of the current cultural movement to remove standardized testing, supposedly on behalf of blacks, is actually primarily motivated by rich parents who see that their middling children can’t compete with smart middle class whites and Asians in a meritocratic process. I think in decades past, there were quite few middle class kids who made the effort to apply to elite schools, so the children of the elite had less competition. Now with more and more interest in elite colleges, the rich kids cannot maintain their expected access to wire institutions.

    It’s in their interest to remove the SAT requirement so colleges are forced to weigh extracurriculars more, which is the area where wealth can most easily buy an advantage, such as trips with the NYT to Peru.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I have to wonder if some portion of the current cultural movement to remove standardized testing, supposedly on behalf of blacks, is actually primarily motivated by rich parents who see that their middling children can’t compete with smart middle class whites and Asians in a meritocratic process….

    This sort of thing is covered quite extensively with lots of useful citations in our very own Ron Unz’s “The Myth of American Meritocracy; How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?” Eight years old but as far as I know even more accurate and useful today.

  70. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Hibernian


    Isn't Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C?
     
    My impression has always been no, not quite.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Unladen Swallow

    Its now where NEAR as rigorous if thats what you mean.

    U Chicago only has about 2K undergrads but about 4k post grad students and sort of post doc faculty.

    UC biz school has one or two single billion guys that no one on here would have heard of.

    And no yo do not want to be anywhere near there.

  71. Steve

    Off topic…but interesting:

    I’m coming across Hindu names…first and surnames that sound dam near Irish…..Paric…Patrick……The Hindu who covers the Yankees:Sweeny Murty…..Not a Celtic Name:Saxena(when I as reading about the Saxena Integral(Special Functions Stuff)-John Saxon the actor(Who is Italian)……..Anyhow, America still should have implemented a National Origins Immigration Policy Post-1945 excluding Hindus-Sikhs-Muslims…..no 1964 Civil Rights Act which gave us the 1965 Immigration Reform Act……

  72. @stillCARealist
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Very expensive, and very liberal. We visited and decided to cross it off the list for my very technical son (now about to graduate from a different university, which gave him a generous academic scholarship.)
    About the patents: remember, those three, Stanford, CalTech, Harvey Mudd are all about computers and programming. the patents may be mostly programs, not actual physical gadgets.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    About the patents: remember, those three, Stanford, CalTech, Harvey Mudd are all about computers and programming. the patents may be mostly programs, not actual physical gadgets.

    I don’t know about Harvey Mudd, but while Stanford is one of the world’s four top computer science schools (along with UC Berkeley, CMU, and MIT), it does a lot of world class science, and unless Caltech has radically changed since the last time I checked, it’s a science school with some really serious engineering departments, and a computer science program that’s probably too small to get it highly ranked, although I’m a lot more familiar with its undergraduate program than its graduate ones. So there’s going to be plenty of patents on processes as well as concrete things like “physical gadgets.”

    For something a bit more concrete than my impressions of these schools far away from me, US News and World Report ranks these two schools plus MIT, UC Berkeley, and Harvard at the top in biology graduate programs. Chemistry the same set, but with Caltech not unexpectedly at the top without a tie, the rest one tenth point below. Physics about the same, with Princeton tying three of these one tenth point below. For computer science Caltech gets an 11th place rank far below the first and second tier schools (with lots of rank ties), although that doesn’t mean they don’t do good and patentable work, just don’t know, academic CS isn’t really a field I follow. Not generally patentable is math, where Princeton is #1, then the other five schools except Caltech is some distance down at #9 with lots of ties.

    For overall engineering, note some of these include ties, Stanford ranks #2, Caltech #4, ditto EE and MechE. AeroAstro Caltech #1, Stanford #3, ChemE Caltech is #2, Stanford #4, Civil Engineering Stanford is #4, Caltech’s program which doesn’t offer an undergraduate degree doesn’t place. Materials Engineering Stanford #4, Caltech #7.

    Why are these schools so good, and how do they stay so good? I don’t know for these ones, but the TL;DR for MIT is a lot of oversight and power placed in committees made of outsiders to the extent they aren’t currently active members of the MIT community. Tenure only goes to those who are #1 or 2 in their subfield, maybe 3, and they must be adequate teachers, and with extremely rare exceptions they teach all the classes. No adjunct professors with a very few exceptions that prove the rule like SF author Joe Halderman, author of The Forever War, otherwise all are tenured or tenure track.

    Harvard I know less about, but being Harvard they do the sort of thing you’d expect, junior facility are hired with the understanding they’re very unlikely to become full professors and finish their careers at the school. For full professors Harvard just makes offers to the very best people they can lure to it, in this it’s very unlike any other research university I know anything about, frankly doesn’t sound collegial.

  73. @Paperback Writer
    @Polistra

    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Reg Cæsar

    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.

    I am very biased, but it’s my understanding MIT as “MIT” (when is it or Caltech referred to as something else unless it’s a formal thing?) has achieved a world wide reputation in the last three or so decades. Caltech for undergraduates is a very small, ~250 students per class, very specialized very science focused program with core science and math requirements ~2/3rds longer than MIT’s, and at least for math a lot harder, you start with one of the proof based calculus texts.

    If you want to become a scientist, I suppose you won’t necessarily learn about it until middle school or so as I did when I read Have Space Suit, Will Travel which has one hidden agenda of telling you what you need to learn to get into it, as well as correctly describing its rejection letter as being very nice.

    • Troll: Realist
    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @That Would Be Telling


    I am very biased, but it’s my understanding MIT as “MIT” ... has achieved a world wide reputation in the last three or so decades.
     
    It certainly has, but you might not be aware that "New York Institute of Technology" has zero prestige. Not less prestige, but zero. If you aren't clued into these things, it's confusing.
    , @Paperback Writer
    @That Would Be Telling

    And another thing. Unless you or your parents are geeks, or super-obsessed with prestige, if you aren't from the US, you won't get the nearly imperceptible differences of class attached to various land-grant universities. University of Virginia, University of Michigan, University of North Dakota... all have different prestige temperatures.

    Or understand the difference between University of Florida or Forida State University (I still don't).

    Or comprehend that if you go to Williams or Swarthmore or Amherst (pronouncing it w/out the "h") you're as much of a blueblood and a snob as anyone from Harvard, and that Princetonians are a class apart from all the rest (in my experience).

    It's the little things.

    Replies: @very old statistician

  74. anon[378] • Disclaimer says:

    Based on the kid-income/parent-income ratio, it seems sending your kids to one of these expensive fancy schools is a bad deal, but it might not be. I did an analysis of Forbes’ 400 richest Americans in June 2020 and where they went to school, and found some interesting stats:

    1) 21% of the richest 400 went to just 2 schools: Harvard & Stanford.

    The undergrad(U — including dropouts) and grad(G) split is as follows:
    Harvard: 15 (U), 34 (G), minus 3 who went to both U and G, so total of 46/400, or 12%.
    Stanford: 14 (U), 25 (G), minus 3 who went to both, so total of 36/400, or 9%.
    The Grad school for both is mostly MBAs, with a few JDs.

    2) The next 19% came from just 5 schools:
    UPenn (16 U, 7 G, 2 went to both, so total 21)
    Columbia (7 U, 13 G, 2 went to both, so total 18)
    Yale (11 U, 1 G)
    NYU (8 U, 4 G)
    USC (12 U) — biggest surprise for me.

    Which means, 40% of the 400 richest came from just 7 schools.

    3) The Ivy League tally is as follows:

    Harvard (46 total): 15 U, 34 G (3 to both)
    UPenn (21): 16 U, 7 G (2 to both) — overwhelmingly from Wharton both U and G
    Columbia (18): 7 U, 13 G, (2 to both)
    Yale (11): 11 U, 1 G
    Cornell (9): 8 U, 1 G
    Dartmouth (8): 8 U
    Princeton (7): 7 U
    Brown (6): 6 U
    ———————–
    Total: 126 including both U and G, or 32%.

    4) Other elites:

    Stanford (36): 14U, 25G, minus 3 to both
    USC(12): 12 U
    NYU (12): 8 U, 4 G
    U Mich (9): 7 U, 2 G
    UCB (9): 7 U, 2 G
    Chicago (8): 3 U, 5 G
    Northwestern (7): 3 U, 4 G
    UVA (5): 2 U, 3 G
    Duke (5): 4 U, 1 G
    MIT (4): 3 U, 1 G
    Amherst (4): 4 U
    UT-Austin (4): 4 U
    Caltech (2): 1 U, 1 G
    Rice (2): 2 U

    So, I guess the message is, if you want your kids to be filthy rich, send them to Harvard or Stanford, undergrad or grad doesn’t matter. If they can’t get into either, then Wharton, Columbia, Yale, NYU or USC. After that, U Mich, UC Berkeley, Chicago and Northwestern are also good bets.

  75. anon[378] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael Humphreys
    Here are a few sort-of relevant thoughts I've been meaning to send to Steve.

    [1] It is stunning how _little_ difference in median income it makes going to an elite college. Even data regarding mid-career 90th percentile incomes (near $200k for many schools) shows that going to Harvard doesn't make a qualitative difference compared with many other colleges.

    [2] The true economic value of going to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Stanford (HYPS) is that you can major in what used to be called the humanities and still get the Goldman/LBO/hedge fund job that puts you on the path toward membership in our Financial Disservices Oligarchy. Recruits from other colleges need to know something (e.g., data science or engineering) or someone (e.g., Dad's friend from the Knickerbocker Club).

    [3] Third, there are elite colleges and then there are elite colleges.

    There are six undergraduate institutions who have long been a cut above all the rest, with Harvard of course being primus inter pales: Caltech, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Princeton, and Stanford, or what I've longed called the CHYMPS (pronounced "chimps").

    The best way to see this would be to count the percentage of each college's class that are among the 2000 (or 2500?) National Merit _Scholars_ (not just Finalists, and not recipients of 'sponsored' scholarships). Each of the CHYMPS has long had about 9%-14% of its matriculants qualify as full National Merit Scholars. The next level of top-flight schools (e.g., Duke or Columbia) would be closer to 5%. In recent years, Caltech, Harvard, and MIT have pulled away a bit (clustered closer to 14%) from Princeton, Stanford, and Yale (clustered closer to 9%). Duke (about 7%) is now nipping at their heels.

    [4] I believe one major factor in the decline of bright (lower-)middle class White kids at places like CHYMPS, and particularly at HYPS, was the re-centering of the SAT circa 1996.

    Back in the '70s and '80s, as the dean of a very elite HYP-feeder prep school told a crowd of us once, the single most important piece of information about an applicant was his SAT Verbal score. This was probably because
    (i) college work back then was more 'verbal' and less quantitative than college work today,
    (ii) the SAT Verbal had the highest 'ceiling' of any widely taken standardized test,
    (iii) the SAT Verbal was the hardest to improve with coaching, and
    (iv) the SAT Verbal had sub-scores for Analogies and Reading Comprehension, and the Analogies section might have been the most g-loaded component of the entire SAT. Apparently top schools cared about those sub-scores then, or the College Board would not have generated them.

    During that halcyon era, Harvard used to say, undoubtedly with some exaggeration, that they ignored SATs (Math or Verbal) _unless_ they were below 550 or above 750.

    Thus, the _one_ thing that a poor or middle class white kid from a mediocre high school could do to demonstrate he had the intellectual ability to do well at HYPS was to score over 750 on the SAT Verbal.

    In time, the Analogies section was removed. In 1996, the SAT was 're-centered'. The Math scores were raised slightly. But the Verbal scores were raised so much that anything over 730 under the old test would register as an 800. Presto: SAT Verbal scores over 750 no longer 'existed'.

    One can imagine how grateful colleges were that they could advance "diversity" and fund-raising without ever being put in the awkward position of _knowingly_ rejecting potential intellectual outliers because they were White and would need financial aid.

    This is just one of many examples of how social engineering ostensibly designed to advance "fairness" and "equality" is actually designed to divide the proles and protect the one percent of the one percent.

    Replies: @anon

    And of course the Verbal score emphasis favors Jews, which explains the heavy Jewish enrollment in the Ivy League.

    They’ve also formed an important network. In my analysis of Forbes 400 richest, 140/400 are Jews. They concentrate in 5 industries: Finance, Real Estate, Retail, Casinos, Pharma; in 4 geographic areas; NY, FL, CA and to a lesser extent, IL (Chicago area). And many attended HYUC among the Ivies (U for UPenn-Wharton), plus NYU.

    Duke was not seen as a serious school until the early 2000’s, when they became popular for children of the wealthy from the Chicago area, mostly Jews. It’s reputation is still more regional than national. Most people outside the East/Southeast don’t know much about Duke.

  76. @E. Rekshun
    @SafeNow

    I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years.

    I was pumping gas and fixing flat tires in the brutal summer heat and freezing winter cold to pay my way through community college, undergrad, and grad school.

    My PhD sister and her medical doctor husband are delaying early retirement to (foolishly) pay $60K per year for their daughter's BA Psychology degree at Georgetown.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @ScarletNumber, @Polistra

    By any chance, did you study applied science at a state university? If so, you were had.

    Those institutions were established, political considerations aside, in order to provide ~100% free-rides to such technicians, i.e. the economy building laborers of the future. Yep.

    At the outset, money (from land sales) was set aside, in tax-free, perpetual trust, to forever cover the cost of teaching such students.

    The liberal arts majors are the ones who should’ve been scrubbing the pots, if they should have even been admitted to the school in the first place.

    [MORE]

    Nowadays, applied science majors pay some of the highest tuition rates in the school, and scholarships accrue to numb skull jocks who couldn’t care less about science.

    • Agree: JMcG
  77. @Polistra

    Chetty: the Ivy League Likes Admission Applicants
     
    Did a subcontinental write this headline?

    Ivy League colleges (plus Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Duke)
     
    Okay college freaks. Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

    Replies: @very old statistician, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Lot, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @anon

    Elizabeth City State University?

  78. @ScarletNumber
    @animalogic

    I thought it was common knowledge, the name Ivy League should have clued you in that it is a college athletic conference. It was set up in 1954 so its eight members could all play each other in sports. It isn't necessarily the best eight schools in America. The fact that the Andy Bernard character on The Office is a Cornell alumnus wasn't an accident.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Hibernian, @animalogic

    Cornell is not a diploma mill.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Hibernian


    Cornell is not a diploma mill.

     

    They say it's the easiest Ivy to get into, but the hardest to get out of.

    It's also the youngest by far. Even little Cornell College in Iowa is a few years older.
    , @Abolish_public_education
    @Hibernian

    I liked it better when it was known for being an Ag school, i.e. before the downstate rich kids turned it into a haughty, pre-med factory.

  79. @Intensifier
    @Polistra

    Wooliness as to terms like this is commonplace.

    In the UK the terms "redbrick" and Russell Group are often used interchangeably to indicate those universities outside the Oxford/Cambridge elite who are nonetheless older and more prestigious than the post-1960s "degree factories" that exist around every other corner even though Oxford and Cambridge are both in the Russell Group and the Group includes places that are not strictly speaking redbrick

    Then we have the very old Scottish universities ( plus Trinity in Dublin ) who don't quite have the Oxbridge cachet but who are referred to as "ancient" to further distinguish themselves from the modern hoi polloi and what they see as arriviste redbricks.

    At the bottom of course it is all branding and marketing. Udemy oor Coursera is as good as any of them..

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    In the UK the terms “redbrick” and Russell Group are often used interchangeably to indicate those universities outside the Oxford/Cambridge elite who are nonetheless older and more prestigious than the post-1960s “degree factories” that exist around every other corner even though Oxford and Cambridge are both in the Russell Group and the Group includes places that are not strictly speaking redbrick

    When we were looking at UK universities for Daughter C, we ran into these categories, and just gave up trying to sort them out. In any case, the distinction between ‘has always been a university’ and ‘used to be a poly’ is easier to identify and apply.

  80. @Hibernian
    @ScarletNumber

    Cornell is not a diploma mill.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Abolish_public_education

    Cornell is not a diploma mill.

    They say it’s the easiest Ivy to get into, but the hardest to get out of.

    It’s also the youngest by far. Even little Cornell College in Iowa is a few years older.

  81. @peterike
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    They clued me in years ago as to just how valuable full-fee-paying overseas students are to a small college on a tight budget.
     
    Indeed. The last time I looked the number of Chinese students in America was something like 350,000. Think about that. And that doesn't include Indians, Arabs, whatever else. It's a national disgrace. No doubt the Corona panic has reduced numbers, but they will spring back pretty quickly. It seems every Indian I meet at work -- and there a loads of 'em -- has been to some American MBA program.

    The number of Chinese and Indian students in our colleges should be zero. Stephen Miller floated that to Trump -- cancelling all Chinese student visas -- but somebody else talked Trump out of it. Would have been a truly great move. Oh well.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    The last time I looked the number of Chinese students in America was something like 350,000. Think about that.

    Yes. If you figure each of those students is paying on average, oh, let’s say 60K/year for tuition/room and board/fees/etc., then that’s 21 billion USD a year flowing into the US higher ed sector. That’s good money, all right.

    But after doing that calculation, I looked up Harvard’s current endowment: 42 billion. Harvard could pay an entire year’s tuition and fees for all 350K Chinese students in the USA and still have half of their endowment left over, which is certainly more endowment than they’ll ever need.

    The time for busting up the barely-veiled wealth machines to which the Ivies are attached like lampreys is long past.

  82. @Paperback Writer
    @Polistra

    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Reg Cæsar

    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    The Gits, the Nits, the Clits, and the Mitts.

  83. @Paperback Writer
    I've never even heard of Landmark College. What's wrong with me?

    Replies: @Eric Liddell

    Landmark is a college in Vermont that caters to students with learning disabilities which explains their ranking in Chetty’s table.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Eric Liddell

    Right.

    Lynn College in Florida caters to rich kids who don't like studying. As far as I can tell, it's a 1980s teen sex comedy come to life.

    Replies: @JMcG

  84. @Anonymous
    Chetty's use of score cut-offs is very tricky.

    One chart uses 1300+ and the other 1400+. If you are are an un-hooked non-URM (under represented minority -- which really boils down to being black, as hispanics get a boost but not much of one, and there are too few native American applicants to these schools to matter), you are not getting into any school on that list with 1400 on your SATs. Yes, the average may be 1400, but not for white kids without a sob story. And it's way, way harder to get in with a given set of stats if you are Asian. And it's way harder than that if you are an actual Asian applying from China or India.

    Building a chart which uses an SAT score 1300 as a cut-off for "competitive" for this group of colleges is absurd to the point of being disingenuous.

    A huge question even in his in his more granular chart is how the distribution of scores in the 1400 - 1600 range vary along his income spectrum. That is, it may be that the average SAT score in the upper income percentiles is much, much higher than in lower percentiles. A simple way to address this would be to use a cut-off of 1500 or even 1550, which is a more realistic estimate of what you need to be in serious consideration for HYPSMC without some huge hook.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    That is, it may be that the average SAT score in the upper income percentiles is much, much higher than in lower percentiles. A simple way to address this would be to use a cut-off of 1500 or even 1550, which is a more realistic estimate of what you need to be in serious consideration for HYPSMC without some huge hook.

    This is absolutely true, except that it’s worse than you think.

    I’ve got a friend here who runs a consultancy business trying to get Chinese kids into top US and UK universities. He told me that a white or Asian kid applying to the HYPSMC apex stands little chance of getting a second look with an SAT under 1570, even if that kid is a typically outstanding applicant with all of the requisite APs/IB, stratospheric GPA, broad and deep extracurriculars, service/volunteering, etc.

    If you’re the wrong color, to be admitted you have to be rich and connected, play a position that a university sports team needs, or have some incredible ‘hook’, like winning a national-level (or even international-level) musical or academic competition of sufficient prestige, or founding an NGO or business that gains significant coverage in the mainstream media, etc.

  85. @Paperback Writer
    @ScarletNumber

    It's not common knowledge. Swear. But it clears up a lot. I've always wondered why Brown is "Ivy League" and Stanford/Duke aren't.

    So, there are eight Ivies and seven Seven Sisters (back when they were women's colleges). Which Ivy was the bachelor? Did people gossip?

    Thanks.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Which Ivy was the bachelor?

    Cornell was always co-ed, plus then-all-girls Elmira was right down Route 13.

    This emphasizes my point that Cornell is the oddball of the Ivies, as Rutgers was still all-male at the time the Ivy League was founded, with Douglass as its sister school.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @ScarletNumber

    Right, plus it just occurred to me that Brown had Pembroke from way back.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Hibernian
    @ScarletNumber

    My Alma Mater Iowa State was nominally coed from the start (immediately Post Civil War) with 2 women and about 20 men. After a year or so there was a new President who wanted it to be all male. He persuaded one of the women to quit, but couldn't get permission from higher up to expel the other one. A little more than 100 years later when I started out there, the ratio was 60% male, 40% female. There were very few women before WW2.

  86. @E. Rekshun
    @SafeNow

    I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years.

    I was pumping gas and fixing flat tires in the brutal summer heat and freezing winter cold to pay my way through community college, undergrad, and grad school.

    My PhD sister and her medical doctor husband are delaying early retirement to (foolishly) pay $60K per year for their daughter's BA Psychology degree at Georgetown.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @ScarletNumber, @Polistra

    Not that this would dissuade them, but a BA in Psychology is useless, even from Georgetown. Ideally she will parlay it into a school hiring her as a GA while she gets her MA. The rule of thumb is that if you are paying for graduate school, you are doing it wrong. The school should be paying you.

    In any event, if she is pretty and can get her MRS degree, more power to her.

  87. @Eric Liddell
    @Paperback Writer

    Landmark is a college in Vermont that caters to students with learning disabilities which explains their ranking in Chetty’s table.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Right.

    Lynn College in Florida caters to rich kids who don’t like studying. As far as I can tell, it’s a 1980s teen sex comedy come to life.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Steve Sailer

    That’s disturbing. A friend has sent two daughters there. I had no idea of it’s reputation.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  88. @Redman
    @Polistra

    I had a lot of friends who went to Brown in the late 1980s when it was at it's peak. They said it was the only Ivy that didn't use "need blind" admissions, which resulted in the highest percentage of wealthy foreign students. Also a lot of children of Euro barons (e.g. Claus von Bulow) and other assorted royalty.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @anon

    went to Brown in the late 1980s… a lot of children of Euro barons (e.g. Claus von Bulow) and other assorted royalty

    Plus JFK Jr 🙂

  89. @E. Rekshun
    @SafeNow

    I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years.

    I was pumping gas and fixing flat tires in the brutal summer heat and freezing winter cold to pay my way through community college, undergrad, and grad school.

    My PhD sister and her medical doctor husband are delaying early retirement to (foolishly) pay $60K per year for their daughter's BA Psychology degree at Georgetown.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education, @ScarletNumber, @Polistra

    Ugh about your sister and her husband. I feel strongly that if you can’t get a good private school to foot all or most of the bill (presuming you need the help) you’re better off attending a good state school. Of course this assumes you’re a resident of one of the several states which have good state schools. If you’re not, and you have kids approaching college age, you should probably move.

    Heck, why not another list. UCLA, Cal, Virginia, NC, Michigan, maybe Texas, maybe Georgia Tech.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Polistra


    Heck, why not another list. UCLA, Cal, Virginia, NC, Michigan, maybe Texas, maybe Georgia Tech.

     

    The University of Washington does very well in some global rankings.

    Wisconsin used to rank quite high, but I get the sense they've been slipping.

    , @JMcG
    @Polistra

    Is Penn State a good school or just a huge school? Serious question. I realize they aren’t very selective, but I’m assuming a good education can be had there.

  90. @Steve Sailer
    @Eric Liddell

    Right.

    Lynn College in Florida caters to rich kids who don't like studying. As far as I can tell, it's a 1980s teen sex comedy come to life.

    Replies: @JMcG

    That’s disturbing. A friend has sent two daughters there. I had no idea of it’s reputation.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JMcG

    Or maybe I'm just speculating too freely...

  91. @SafeNow
    My family was in the middle, not rich and not poor. So, unlike the rich students and the poor students, I had my arms in the greasy pot sink at the university dining hall for four years. This was time not studying and not benefitting from other aspects of the college experience. Please don’t tell me I learned job discipline, because I learned that at other times. I thought someone should add, to the economist and university-treasurer perspectives, the pot-sink perspective.

    Replies: @E. Rekshun, @AnonAnon

    I had a dining hall dish washer work study job, too, my freshman year, earning minimum wage. Then I got A’s in calculus which enabled me to become a math tutor the following semester, for double minimum wage. The year after that I got engineering co-op jobs for triple minimum wage. I took away two things from my cafeteria worker days – a hatred of menial labor and the trick to core a head of iceberg lettuce like a pro.

  92. @That Would Be Telling
    @Paperback Writer


    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.
     
    I am very biased, but it's my understanding MIT as "MIT" (when is it or Caltech referred to as something else unless it's a formal thing?) has achieved a world wide reputation in the last three or so decades. Caltech for undergraduates is a very small, ~250 students per class, very specialized very science focused program with core science and math requirements ~2/3rds longer than MIT's, and at least for math a lot harder, you start with one of the proof based calculus texts.

    If you want to become a scientist, I suppose you won't necessarily learn about it until middle school or so as I did when I read Have Space Suit, Will Travel which has one hidden agenda of telling you what you need to learn to get into it, as well as correctly describing its rejection letter as being very nice.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Paperback Writer

    I am very biased, but it’s my understanding MIT as “MIT” … has achieved a world wide reputation in the last three or so decades.

    It certainly has, but you might not be aware that “New York Institute of Technology” has zero prestige. Not less prestige, but zero. If you aren’t clued into these things, it’s confusing.

  93. @ScarletNumber
    @Paperback Writer


    Which Ivy was the bachelor?
     
    Cornell was always co-ed, plus then-all-girls Elmira was right down Route 13.

    This emphasizes my point that Cornell is the oddball of the Ivies, as Rutgers was still all-male at the time the Ivy League was founded, with Douglass as its sister school.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Hibernian

    Right, plus it just occurred to me that Brown had Pembroke from way back.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Paperback Writer

    Correct, they were sibling schools, but Pembroke, like Douglass and Elmira, was never considered a Seven Sisters. As far as I can tell, here were the matchups, some official, some not
    Harvard-Radcliffe
    Princeton-Sarah Lawrence*
    Yale-Vassar
    Brown-Pembroke*
    Columbia-Barnard
    Dartmouth-Mount Holyoke
    Penn-Bryn Mawr

    This leaves Smith and Wellesley. For them, it's lights out at 10; candles out at 10:30

  94. anon[246] • Disclaimer says:
    @Polistra

    Chetty: the Ivy League Likes Admission Applicants
     
    Did a subcontinental write this headline?

    Ivy League colleges (plus Stanford, MIT, Chicago, Duke)
     
    Okay college freaks. Who should be added to this list? Caltech obviously; maybe Williams & Amherst? Swarthmore? Hopkins? Rice?

    Replies: @very old statistician, @The Last Real Calvinist, @Lot, @Jim Bob Lassiter, @anon

    Duke does not belong in the top twelve. It is a basketball team with a school attached. What is it known for academically? No one knows.

    Most people put the schools in these tiers:

    Tippy Top: HYPSM — the 5 total crapshoots for even the most overqualified, unless they’re hooked.

    Top ten: Ivies + Stanford + MIT

    Top twelve (IMO): UChicago, Caltech

    UChicago was not even in the top twenty just five years ago, and then they got a Jewish president and he started playing games. Chicago started using EA, ED, EDII to try to get lots of kids to apply and commit. They send out the most ridiculous amount of marketing material. Both my kids started getting promotional brochures from them in sophomore year. By junior year they were getting stuff from them monthly, huge colorful pop up cards for the school. In senior year they were getting brochures weekly, sometimes twice a week, reminding them to apply. This is a school that’s seriously into marketing to bump up their rejection rate. One of my kids applied EA and got deferred, they wanted him to opt for EDII, he said no thanks, and he knew he was out, National Merit Scholar notwithstanding. They are definitely playing games to bump themselves up on USNews. It’s hard for me to give them any respect. A school that is truly prestigious does not need to send out so much marketing material. HYSM never sent either of my kids anything. Princeton did for one of them, but only one letter.

  95. @Polistra
    @E. Rekshun

    Ugh about your sister and her husband. I feel strongly that if you can't get a good private school to foot all or most of the bill (presuming you need the help) you're better off attending a good state school. Of course this assumes you're a resident of one of the several states which have good state schools. If you're not, and you have kids approaching college age, you should probably move.


    Heck, why not another list. UCLA, Cal, Virginia, NC, Michigan, maybe Texas, maybe Georgia Tech.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JMcG

    Heck, why not another list. UCLA, Cal, Virginia, NC, Michigan, maybe Texas, maybe Georgia Tech.

    The University of Washington does very well in some global rankings.

    Wisconsin used to rank quite high, but I get the sense they’ve been slipping.

  96. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Lot


    HYPSMC is abbreviation used on the undergraduate admissions forums.

     

    Yes, exactly. To add to my post above, where I noted that lots of non-Americans don't realize that Stanford, MIT, and Chicago aren't in the Ivy League: they are equally shocked to discover that Dartmouth and Cornell actually are IL.

    Replies: @Giant Duck, @AutoAdmit

    Except the “C” is for Caltech, not Chicago, in HYPSMC.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @AutoAdmit


    Except the “C” is for Caltech, not Chicago, in HYPSMC.

     

    Yes, thanks; I was unclear and created an apples and oranges situation. I was just giving some examples of universities that people over here assume are 'Ivy League'. Chicago is one of them, and it happens it has the same initial letter as Caltech. Some people here also assume other 'famous' universities such as Duke and Northwestern are Ivies as well.

    I don't think Cal Tech is assumed to be an Ivy quite as often; it's smaller, less well-known if you're not in STEM/engineering, and it's got the obvious 'Tech' in its name -- although having said that, lots of people here assume MIT is an Ivy, and it's the same.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  97. @Hibernian
    @Lot

    Stanford/MIT/Chicago or Stanford/MIT/Columbia? (Probably Chicago because it's grouped with Stanford and MIT.) Isn't Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C? They both share the disadvantage of being in the inner city, although there has been increasing gentrification in recent years.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Ben tillman, @AutoAdmit

    Caltech. (See: proximity to “M” in the list.)

    The usage on the college admissions discussion boards is generally either “HYPS” (for those not interested in science and engineering) or “HYPSMC” (for those who are).

  98. anon[246] • Disclaimer says:
    @Redman
    @Polistra

    I had a lot of friends who went to Brown in the late 1980s when it was at it's peak. They said it was the only Ivy that didn't use "need blind" admissions, which resulted in the highest percentage of wealthy foreign students. Also a lot of children of Euro barons (e.g. Claus von Bulow) and other assorted royalty.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @anon

    According to Daniel Golden in Price of Admission, no one took Brown seriously until JFK Jr. enrolled, I think in the 80’s. His grades weren’t good enough for Harvard, despite the heavy family connection. Since then Brown started recruiting heavily from Europe and Hollywood. Lots of rich/royalty/celebrity kids love Brown because it doesn’t have a core curriculum. All other Ivies require you to take minimum a math and a science (any science) class, not Brown. You never have to see math or science again if you don’t wish to.

    Stanford requires at least 1 year of physics and math to graduate. Nearly 60% of Stanford grads graduate with a STEM degree each year, compared to less than 30% (and mostly Biology) at HYP. Columbia has a core curriculum that requires heavy reading. Princeton is known as the most academically rigorous Ivy with the least grade inflation, but it also has a clubby reputation with some eating clubs serving as networking grounds for jobs on Wall Street. Cornell is probably the most known for STEM among Ivies. Brown and Yale are the weakest for STEM among Ivies, and most liberal.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @anon


    According to Daniel Golden in Price of Admission, no one took Brown seriously until JFK Jr. enrolled, I think in the 80’s. His grades weren’t good enough for Harvard, despite the heavy family connection. Since then Brown started recruiting heavily from Europe and Hollywood. Lots of rich/royalty/celebrity kids love Brown because it doesn’t have a core curriculum. All other Ivies require you to take minimum a math and a science (any science) class, not Brown. You never have to see math or science again if you don’t wish to.
     
    According to a friend who was a computer science student at Harvard in the 1980s, a not unknown example of someone who wanted to go to MIT but let his family pressure him into Harvard, at that time all you had to do to graduate was prove you could do algebra, and he was quite incensed about it. It would be surprising given Harvard's legitimately legendary math department and as I recall an old program to teach normies the calculus, and present day things like its also legendary hardest in the US first year Math 55 class, which Bill Gates attempted and Richard Stallman (RMS) excelled in.

    Replies: @anonymous

  99. @AutoAdmit
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Except the “C” is for Caltech, not Chicago, in HYPSMC.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Except the “C” is for Caltech, not Chicago, in HYPSMC.

    Yes, thanks; I was unclear and created an apples and oranges situation. I was just giving some examples of universities that people over here assume are ‘Ivy League’. Chicago is one of them, and it happens it has the same initial letter as Caltech. Some people here also assume other ‘famous’ universities such as Duke and Northwestern are Ivies as well.

    I don’t think Cal Tech is assumed to be an Ivy quite as often; it’s smaller, less well-known if you’re not in STEM/engineering, and it’s got the obvious ‘Tech’ in its name — although having said that, lots of people here assume MIT is an Ivy, and it’s the same.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    I don’t think Cal Tech is assumed to be an Ivy quite as often; it’s smaller, less well-known if you’re not in STEM/engineering, and it’s got the obvious ‘Tech’ in its name — although having said that, lots of people here assume MIT is an Ivy, and it’s the same.
     
    MIT technically was an "Ivy" long before that became a name used for the schools it played football with starting in 1881. In 1901 the student body voted to disband the intercollegiate squad for it being a distraction from its mission; per Wikipedia it's last game was played against Harvard. Allowing the formal creation of an athletic club to play football in 1978 was said to have been controversial for some years afterwards, see the link for how it was initially formed under the radar of the administration.

    I doubt the administration could say no at a time it was boasting it had the largest number of intercollegiate school sports clubs and teams in America, including tiddlywinks. Seriously for the latter, I knew someone who had been on the team and as I recall they went to Europe to play some games.
  100. @Paperback Writer
    @ScarletNumber

    Right, plus it just occurred to me that Brown had Pembroke from way back.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Correct, they were sibling schools, but Pembroke, like Douglass and Elmira, was never considered a Seven Sisters. As far as I can tell, here were the matchups, some official, some not

    [MORE]

    Harvard-Radcliffe
    Princeton-Sarah Lawrence*
    Yale-Vassar
    Brown-Pembroke*
    Columbia-Barnard
    Dartmouth-Mount Holyoke
    Penn-Bryn Mawr

    This leaves Smith and Wellesley. For them, it’s lights out at 10; candles out at 10:30

  101. @JMcG
    @Steve Sailer

    That’s disturbing. A friend has sent two daughters there. I had no idea of it’s reputation.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Or maybe I’m just speculating too freely…

  102. @Polistra
    @E. Rekshun

    Ugh about your sister and her husband. I feel strongly that if you can't get a good private school to foot all or most of the bill (presuming you need the help) you're better off attending a good state school. Of course this assumes you're a resident of one of the several states which have good state schools. If you're not, and you have kids approaching college age, you should probably move.


    Heck, why not another list. UCLA, Cal, Virginia, NC, Michigan, maybe Texas, maybe Georgia Tech.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @JMcG

    Is Penn State a good school or just a huge school? Serious question. I realize they aren’t very selective, but I’m assuming a good education can be had there.

  103. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @AutoAdmit


    Except the “C” is for Caltech, not Chicago, in HYPSMC.

     

    Yes, thanks; I was unclear and created an apples and oranges situation. I was just giving some examples of universities that people over here assume are 'Ivy League'. Chicago is one of them, and it happens it has the same initial letter as Caltech. Some people here also assume other 'famous' universities such as Duke and Northwestern are Ivies as well.

    I don't think Cal Tech is assumed to be an Ivy quite as often; it's smaller, less well-known if you're not in STEM/engineering, and it's got the obvious 'Tech' in its name -- although having said that, lots of people here assume MIT is an Ivy, and it's the same.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I don’t think Cal Tech is assumed to be an Ivy quite as often; it’s smaller, less well-known if you’re not in STEM/engineering, and it’s got the obvious ‘Tech’ in its name — although having said that, lots of people here assume MIT is an Ivy, and it’s the same.

    MIT technically was an “Ivy” long before that became a name used for the schools it played football with starting in 1881. In 1901 the student body voted to disband the intercollegiate squad for it being a distraction from its mission; per Wikipedia it’s last game was played against Harvard. Allowing the formal creation of an athletic club to play football in 1978 was said to have been controversial for some years afterwards, see the link for how it was initially formed under the radar of the administration.

    I doubt the administration could say no at a time it was boasting it had the largest number of intercollegiate school sports clubs and teams in America, including tiddlywinks. Seriously for the latter, I knew someone who had been on the team and as I recall they went to Europe to play some games.

  104. @anon
    @Redman

    According to Daniel Golden in Price of Admission, no one took Brown seriously until JFK Jr. enrolled, I think in the 80's. His grades weren't good enough for Harvard, despite the heavy family connection. Since then Brown started recruiting heavily from Europe and Hollywood. Lots of rich/royalty/celebrity kids love Brown because it doesn't have a core curriculum. All other Ivies require you to take minimum a math and a science (any science) class, not Brown. You never have to see math or science again if you don't wish to.

    Stanford requires at least 1 year of physics and math to graduate. Nearly 60% of Stanford grads graduate with a STEM degree each year, compared to less than 30% (and mostly Biology) at HYP. Columbia has a core curriculum that requires heavy reading. Princeton is known as the most academically rigorous Ivy with the least grade inflation, but it also has a clubby reputation with some eating clubs serving as networking grounds for jobs on Wall Street. Cornell is probably the most known for STEM among Ivies. Brown and Yale are the weakest for STEM among Ivies, and most liberal.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    According to Daniel Golden in Price of Admission, no one took Brown seriously until JFK Jr. enrolled, I think in the 80’s. His grades weren’t good enough for Harvard, despite the heavy family connection. Since then Brown started recruiting heavily from Europe and Hollywood. Lots of rich/royalty/celebrity kids love Brown because it doesn’t have a core curriculum. All other Ivies require you to take minimum a math and a science (any science) class, not Brown. You never have to see math or science again if you don’t wish to.

    According to a friend who was a computer science student at Harvard in the 1980s, a not unknown example of someone who wanted to go to MIT but let his family pressure him into Harvard, at that time all you had to do to graduate was prove you could do algebra, and he was quite incensed about it. It would be surprising given Harvard’s legitimately legendary math department and as I recall an old program to teach normies the calculus, and present day things like its also legendary hardest in the US first year Math 55 class, which Bill Gates attempted and Richard Stallman (RMS) excelled in.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @That Would Be Telling

    I don't doubt it. Harvard now offers an intro level, little math based physics class for minorities and women, to "encourage" them to be interested in physics, which is the biggest lie. If they can't even hack basic calculus based physics in college, they have no hope of being physics majors.

    Even Stanford has watered down their intro physics classes. They used to offer only calculus based physics in introductory physics, then they introduced a set of algebra based ones, no doubt to accommodate their increasing number of affirmative action admits, mostly Latino, who now make up 17% at Stanford. My kid complained about a bimbo in his Classics class who doesn't seem to know or care about anything other than Latino pride. I told him unfortunately I think we're subsidizing her no-doubt tuition free education.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  105. @Hibernian
    @ScarletNumber

    Cornell is not a diploma mill.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Abolish_public_education

    I liked it better when it was known for being an Ag school, i.e. before the downstate rich kids turned it into a haughty, pre-med factory.

  106. anonymous[378] • Disclaimer says:
    @That Would Be Telling
    @anon


    According to Daniel Golden in Price of Admission, no one took Brown seriously until JFK Jr. enrolled, I think in the 80’s. His grades weren’t good enough for Harvard, despite the heavy family connection. Since then Brown started recruiting heavily from Europe and Hollywood. Lots of rich/royalty/celebrity kids love Brown because it doesn’t have a core curriculum. All other Ivies require you to take minimum a math and a science (any science) class, not Brown. You never have to see math or science again if you don’t wish to.
     
    According to a friend who was a computer science student at Harvard in the 1980s, a not unknown example of someone who wanted to go to MIT but let his family pressure him into Harvard, at that time all you had to do to graduate was prove you could do algebra, and he was quite incensed about it. It would be surprising given Harvard's legitimately legendary math department and as I recall an old program to teach normies the calculus, and present day things like its also legendary hardest in the US first year Math 55 class, which Bill Gates attempted and Richard Stallman (RMS) excelled in.

    Replies: @anonymous

    I don’t doubt it. Harvard now offers an intro level, little math based physics class for minorities and women, to “encourage” them to be interested in physics, which is the biggest lie. If they can’t even hack basic calculus based physics in college, they have no hope of being physics majors.

    Even Stanford has watered down their intro physics classes. They used to offer only calculus based physics in introductory physics, then they introduced a set of algebra based ones, no doubt to accommodate their increasing number of affirmative action admits, mostly Latino, who now make up 17% at Stanford. My kid complained about a bimbo in his Classics class who doesn’t seem to know or care about anything other than Latino pride. I told him unfortunately I think we’re subsidizing her no-doubt tuition free education.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @anonymous


    Harvard now offers an intro level, little math based physics class for minorities and women, to “encourage” them to be interested in physics, which is the biggest lie. If they can’t even hack basic calculus based physics in college, they have no hope of being physics majors.
     
    This course is really evil, as well as stupid as you note. In terms of making a living after college very few minorities, and I suspect few women, will take their Harvard undergraduate degrees and pursue real physics careers unless they're truly interested, they can make far more money in easier much less risky careers. And for those who are interested, or get interested by taking this course, it holds out a false hope they can do it for real, since calculus based first year physics (classical mechanics and E&M) doesn't even rise to the level of table stakes to become a physicist.
  107. @That Would Be Telling
    @Paperback Writer


    How is a non-American to know the prestige difference between Massachusetts institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, New York Institute of Technology and Georgia Institute of Technology?

    They all sound the same to him or her. In fact they all sounded the same to me, when I was a kid. You have to go through an intensive indoctrination starting in middle school to get these nuances.
     
    I am very biased, but it's my understanding MIT as "MIT" (when is it or Caltech referred to as something else unless it's a formal thing?) has achieved a world wide reputation in the last three or so decades. Caltech for undergraduates is a very small, ~250 students per class, very specialized very science focused program with core science and math requirements ~2/3rds longer than MIT's, and at least for math a lot harder, you start with one of the proof based calculus texts.

    If you want to become a scientist, I suppose you won't necessarily learn about it until middle school or so as I did when I read Have Space Suit, Will Travel which has one hidden agenda of telling you what you need to learn to get into it, as well as correctly describing its rejection letter as being very nice.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Paperback Writer

    And another thing. Unless you or your parents are geeks, or super-obsessed with prestige, if you aren’t from the US, you won’t get the nearly imperceptible differences of class attached to various land-grant universities. University of Virginia, University of Michigan, University of North Dakota… all have different prestige temperatures.

    Or understand the difference between University of Florida or Forida State University (I still don’t).

    Or comprehend that if you go to Williams or Swarthmore or Amherst (pronouncing it w/out the “h”) you’re as much of a blueblood and a snob as anyone from Harvard, and that Princetonians are a class apart from all the rest (in my experience).

    It’s the little things.

    • Replies: @very old statistician
    @Paperback Writer

    actually, all those little things VANISH in the WORLD WHERE GUYS WHO GET HOT CHICKS are successful, AND WOMEN WHO GET GUYS IN THE TOP TEN PERCENT are successful ------- trust me, the little differentiations among QUALITY COLLEGES are a big fucking joke to people who understand how the world works ......

  108. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Hibernian


    Isn't Columbia at least as high powered as the U of C?
     
    My impression has always been no, not quite.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Unladen Swallow

    I know Columbia was in the doldrums from the late 1960’s until at least the mid 1990’s in terms of prestige, there were years in which they took half the students that applied. Their decline and bounce back coincided pretty closely with NYC’s rise and then fall of violent crime.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Unladen Swallow


    [Columbia's] decline and bounce back coincided pretty closely with NYC’s rise and then fall of violent crime.
     
    I have a friend who attended their famous journalism school, indeed during that late '60s to mid '90s high crime period. The thing that most impressed me, after the raw fear of having a gun shoved into his face, he's just not a physical combat oriented person, was how totally prepared the Columbia office for handling this was. To for example offer him much safer housing and otherwise do whatever it took for him to not withdraw.
  109. @anonymous
    @That Would Be Telling

    I don't doubt it. Harvard now offers an intro level, little math based physics class for minorities and women, to "encourage" them to be interested in physics, which is the biggest lie. If they can't even hack basic calculus based physics in college, they have no hope of being physics majors.

    Even Stanford has watered down their intro physics classes. They used to offer only calculus based physics in introductory physics, then they introduced a set of algebra based ones, no doubt to accommodate their increasing number of affirmative action admits, mostly Latino, who now make up 17% at Stanford. My kid complained about a bimbo in his Classics class who doesn't seem to know or care about anything other than Latino pride. I told him unfortunately I think we're subsidizing her no-doubt tuition free education.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Harvard now offers an intro level, little math based physics class for minorities and women, to “encourage” them to be interested in physics, which is the biggest lie. If they can’t even hack basic calculus based physics in college, they have no hope of being physics majors.

    This course is really evil, as well as stupid as you note. In terms of making a living after college very few minorities, and I suspect few women, will take their Harvard undergraduate degrees and pursue real physics careers unless they’re truly interested, they can make far more money in easier much less risky careers. And for those who are interested, or get interested by taking this course, it holds out a false hope they can do it for real, since calculus based first year physics (classical mechanics and E&M) doesn’t even rise to the level of table stakes to become a physicist.

  110. @Unladen Swallow
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    I know Columbia was in the doldrums from the late 1960's until at least the mid 1990's in terms of prestige, there were years in which they took half the students that applied. Their decline and bounce back coincided pretty closely with NYC's rise and then fall of violent crime.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    [Columbia’s] decline and bounce back coincided pretty closely with NYC’s rise and then fall of violent crime.

    I have a friend who attended their famous journalism school, indeed during that late ’60s to mid ’90s high crime period. The thing that most impressed me, after the raw fear of having a gun shoved into his face, he’s just not a physical combat oriented person, was how totally prepared the Columbia office for handling this was. To for example offer him much safer housing and otherwise do whatever it took for him to not withdraw.

  111. @ScarletNumber
    @Paperback Writer


    Which Ivy was the bachelor?
     
    Cornell was always co-ed, plus then-all-girls Elmira was right down Route 13.

    This emphasizes my point that Cornell is the oddball of the Ivies, as Rutgers was still all-male at the time the Ivy League was founded, with Douglass as its sister school.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Hibernian

    My Alma Mater Iowa State was nominally coed from the start (immediately Post Civil War) with 2 women and about 20 men. After a year or so there was a new President who wanted it to be all male. He persuaded one of the women to quit, but couldn’t get permission from higher up to expel the other one. A little more than 100 years later when I started out there, the ratio was 60% male, 40% female. There were very few women before WW2.

  112. @ScarletNumber
    @animalogic

    I thought it was common knowledge, the name Ivy League should have clued you in that it is a college athletic conference. It was set up in 1954 so its eight members could all play each other in sports. It isn't necessarily the best eight schools in America. The fact that the Andy Bernard character on The Office is a Cornell alumnus wasn't an accident.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer, @Hibernian, @animalogic

    I’m Australian, so I miss a lot of fine detail about the US (Australia too, I wouldn’t be surprised!)

  113. @Paperback Writer
    @That Would Be Telling

    And another thing. Unless you or your parents are geeks, or super-obsessed with prestige, if you aren't from the US, you won't get the nearly imperceptible differences of class attached to various land-grant universities. University of Virginia, University of Michigan, University of North Dakota... all have different prestige temperatures.

    Or understand the difference between University of Florida or Forida State University (I still don't).

    Or comprehend that if you go to Williams or Swarthmore or Amherst (pronouncing it w/out the "h") you're as much of a blueblood and a snob as anyone from Harvard, and that Princetonians are a class apart from all the rest (in my experience).

    It's the little things.

    Replies: @very old statistician

    actually, all those little things VANISH in the WORLD WHERE GUYS WHO GET HOT CHICKS are successful, AND WOMEN WHO GET GUYS IN THE TOP TEN PERCENT are successful ——- trust me, the little differentiations among QUALITY COLLEGES are a big fucking joke to people who understand how the world works ……

  114. Anon[662] • Disclaimer says:

    The graph is deceptive, making it look like zillions of rich kids (and poor kids) are in the school. In reality, the money graph is filtered through a graph of how many students or applicants there are at each level of income. That graph will be the opposite, an upward bulging parabola or bell curve. The end result is roughly a flat horizontal line. So there is an even distribution of kids by income at the schooll. The horror!

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