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Following up my review in Taki’s Magazine of the bestseller Caste by Isabel Wilkerson, I’m reminded that many of the practices of the Hindu caste system sound like our current Social Distancing festishes gone nuts. From Wikipedia’s article on caste in Kerala in southwestern India:

The entire Malabar region had strict pollution rules that were considered by the observers to be the most extreme in all of India. Lower caste people could only use separate paths and their houses were in places where they could not be seen. Lower castes can pollute a Brahmin or Nair not by mere touch but also coming within certain feet from them. … The lower castes were known as tintal jati, i.e. castes which pollutes at a distance. …

The lower castes, particularly the Pulayars were not even allowed to breathe the same air with the other castes or use a public pathway. A lower caste person could pollute a higher caste person by merely coming within certain distance from him or in extreme cases the pollution is transmitted even by simply seeing a lower caste person. If by accident he was there and he sees an approaching Nair or a Brahmin, he must make a loud howling sound to warn the upper castes from getting near until he went away or climbed up a tree. If a Nair meets a Pulayar in the highway by accident, he cuts him down like a others cut an unpleasant animal. The Nair’s right to kill any Pulayar imminently he met on the pathway is confirmed by almost all visitors to Kerala.

… Pollution rules were also observed in touching and sexual intercourse with the lower castes. … Pollution by approaching a Muslim, Christian or a Jew is not observed but their touch is considered polluting. The custom for removing pollution is a bath by complete immersion in water.[11]

The Nambudiris had varying rules regarding the degrees of ritual pollution while interacting with people of different castes. In return, most castes practised the principles of untouchability in their relationship with the other regional castes. Untouchability in Kerala is not restricted to Hindus, and George Mathew says that, “Technically, the Christians were outside the caste hierarchy, but in practice a system of inclusion and exclusion was developed …”. Among Christians, the established Syrian Christians also practised the rules of untouchability. …

The rules of untouchability were severe to begin with, and they were very strictly enforced among Hindu communities by the time of the arrival of the Dutch East India Company in the 17th century.[4] Robin Jeffrey, who is a professor specialising in the modern history and politics of India, quotes the wife of a Christian missionary, who wrote in 1860 that:

… a Nair can approach but not touch a Namboodiri Brahmin: a Chovan [Ezhava] must remain thirty-six paces off, and a Pulayan slave ninety-six steps distant. A Chovan must remain twelve steps away from a Nair, and a Pulayan sixty-six steps off, and a Parayan some distance farther still … Pulayans and Parayars, who are the lowest of all, can approach but not touch, much less may they eat with each other.

The Indians kept terrible historical records (compared to, say, the Chinese), so we don’t yet have much of a clue why the caste system emerged, although the new science of ancient genetics offers strong hope that we will someday be able to tell conclusively when it emerged relative to the Aryan invasions.

So here is some top of the head speculating: Maybe the Aryans said to themselves: “We used to live by ourselves on the northern steppe, where we were poor and cold, but we were healthy. Now we live in India amongst all these Indians we conquered. We are rich and warm, but sickly. It must be the presences of these lesser peoples who are sapping and impurifying all our precious bodily fluids.”

 
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  1. • LOL: AnotherDad
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @dvorak

    That looks like a Vindog meme

    https://twitter.com/barstoolsports/status/1193233120344055808?s=20

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @dvorak

    Wow, were you ever quick!

    , @AnotherDad
    @dvorak

    I wouldn't even type in OPE anymore.

    This minoritarian open borders, take-a-knee order isn't worth saving. Bomb's away--good riddance.

  2. Reasonable idea.

    Contagion from disease is a huge reason why people are (rightly) suspicious of outsiders. Until coronavirus people forgot how much of a threat infectious disease was to our ancestors.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @Matt Buckalew
    @SFG

    Ok but... the outsiders in this case were the aryans who supposedly imposed the caste purity system.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Mr McKenna
    @SFG


    Reasonable idea.
     
    Keep kosher, do you?
    , @Captain Tripps
    @SFG

    Indeed; also, our ancient ancestors were always on guard against outsiders coming in, and spreading, iron and bronze poisoning in heavy doses. Natural suspicion tends to keep one healthy.

  3. Anon[342] • Disclaimer says:

    The Indians kept terrible historical records (compared to, say, the Chinese)

    Raoul McLaughlin cites Indian (and Chinese) historical records frequently in his works, and the Indian stuff seems pretty solid. The difference is that China’s core territory and population has been stable for thousands of years, while at least Northern India has seen local migrations and conquests. The Indian pattern leads to fragmented and scattered records in numerous obscure languages, and modern scholars are less familiar with the records. The Chinese pattern leads to large, maintained records that are centrally located, unfortunately allowing for emperors to completely “disappear” ancient chronicles that they don’t like, but all in all the Chinese retention rate is roughly the same as ancient Roman Records.

  4. There is a passage in the confusion (part2 of the baroque cycle by Neal Stephenson) where he speculates thru half cocked Jack his illiterate but cunning main character that it is a way to keep the lesser castes out of spear or arrow range.

  5. I wonder if it originally had something to do with beggars. Seems likely to me.

  6. Anonymous[369] • Disclaimer says:

    Well dot Indians are another group of people Trump loves. He can’t wait for Jan 1 to lift his 6 mos Visa Control Theater restrictions on students and foreign stem workers.

    If you think Trump is ever going to really crack down on the stem foreigners in the US — at the direct expense of his new favorite minority group inside the GOP big tent coalition — then you are sadly mistaken.

    Btw anybody know what caste category Indians put Americans into when they step off the plane stateside? I assume we are some version of goyim to them. Right. Dumb beasts to be worked like draft animals.

    • Replies: @D. K.
    @Anonymous

    ***

    "66 percent of Indian Americans currently favour Vice President Biden, 28 percent favour President Donald Trump, and 6 percent were undecided. In the 2016 presidential election, 77percent voted for Secretary Hillary Clinton, and 16 percent voted for President Trump. If the remaining undecided voters broke in the same pattern as those who have madeup their mind, Biden would secure 70 percent of the vote, when compared to 30 percent for Trump," the report read.

    ***

    https://www.business-standard.com/article/us-elections/biden-holds-lead-over-trump-among-indian-american-voters-finds-survey-120091600256_1.html

    Replies: @Mr McKenna

    , @JMcG
    @Anonymous

    When my son was in Cub Scouts, I used to help out with the pinewood derby. Some of us would get together on a Saturday and give a hand to those kids who didn’t have a father around or whose dad didn’t have a workshop full of tools.
    There was one Indian kid in the pack who showed up with his mom for some help. I knew his dad was in the picture, so I asked if he was out of town. The mom informed me that to do manual labor was beneath the dignity of her husband and that he was not allowed to work with tools. So yeah, pretty much beasts to be driven.

    Replies: @Escher, @Marty

  7. So not only were the ancient Aryans racist towards those they conquered, they were touchist as well. Too much touchy feely from the wrong peoples and their precious bodily fluids would soon dissipate and dry up.

    Only the touch of a Brahmin could cure what ails the rest of India. Unfortunately they appear very very touchist, or touchaphobia of the lower castes and do wish that they would hence depart from their midst.

  8. The important thing to remember is that this is all because of white supremacy and British colonialism. High caste Hindu Brahmins are noble PoCs and thus by definition incapable of racism (which = power + privilege). This is all the fault of the British Raj, and white people.

    (This is what progs actually believe)

  9. If I remember correctly, there was caste system in Japan and a Samurai could cut down a lower caste that offended him.

  10. The lower castes, particularly the Pulayars were not even allowed to breathe the same air with the other castes or use a public pathway. A lower caste person could pollute a higher caste person by merely coming within certain distance from him or in extreme cases the pollution is transmitted even by simply seeing a lower caste person.

    This reminds me of girls in my 6th grade class who were afraid of getting cooties from less popular girls.

  11. @dvorak
    https://i.imgur.com/M2m6Iao.png

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Nicholas Stix, @AnotherDad

    That looks like a Vindog meme

  12. @SFG
    Reasonable idea.

    Contagion from disease is a huge reason why people are (rightly) suspicious of outsiders. Until coronavirus people forgot how much of a threat infectious disease was to our ancestors.

    Replies: @Matt Buckalew, @Mr McKenna, @Captain Tripps

    Ok but… the outsiders in this case were the aryans who supposedly imposed the caste purity system.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Matt Buckalew


    ... the aryans who supposedly imposed the caste purity system.
     
    More likely, the "Aryans" (Indo-European invaders from Persia who invaded India through the Hindukush but never imposed their language in Southern India) put themselves at the top of an existing purity system that had long been in place when they arrived.

    The rest of the Indo-European world (from Iceland to Bangla Desh and China, from Norway to Sicily and Odessa) apparently featured a tripartite class system - warriors, priests, farmers. There is no indication that there were purity taboos among these three. In addition, there were hereditary serfs, but serfs often seem to have lived in close proximity with their masters.

    An interesting question for a layman to ask in 2020 is: what types of hatefacts/hate theories are present-day academics UNABLE to express in public? What do publications hint at?

    Replies: @Anonymous

  13. On YouTube I tried to find a copy of the National Socialist song “Wir sind die K”ampfer der NSDAP … arishes Blut soll nicht undergeh’n [Aryan blood shall not perish]” but could not find it. Are the YouTube censors on an anti-Aryan kick? But I did find this Dian Fossey-inspired parody of “Jurassic Park” (same font, similar music):

  14. The Indians kept terrible historical records (compared to, say, the Chinese),

    Also compared to the Greeks and the Romans. There are no ancient Indian versions of Thucydides, Polybius, Tacitus, etc. Some have speculated that ancient India did have a more robust historiographical tradition, but that it has been lost, the Hindu mind seeing little merit in such things.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @syonredux


    the Hindu mind seeing little merit in such things
     
    Hinduism believes the world of appearances is can illusion, there is no progress, and it is cyclical.

    Such a culture will be uninterested in history.

    (I believe their attitude is largely correct).

    Replies: @syonredux

    , @Neil Templeton
    @syonredux

    Which brings up other questions why do some societies keep better records? Is that factor related to trust, enslavement, diversity? Is it because of genetics?


  15. [MORE]

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
  16. Anonymous[214] • Disclaimer says:

    This doesn’t strike me as social distancing:

    “Indian Low-caste Woman Dies After Gang-rape, Second This Week”

    https://www.ibtimes.com/indian-low-caste-woman-dies-after-gang-rape-second-week-3054976

    A woman from India’s marginalised Dalit community has died after being gang-raped, police said Thursday, days after the death of a teenager from the same “untouchable” group at the hands of a group of high-caste men sparked outrage.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Anonymous

    It's exactly the same as social distancing. Just as social distancing is temporarily in abeyance when blacks want to riot or police swarm a maskless mother, Hindu ritual purity is temporarily in abeyance when high castes need to gangrape low castes.

    , @Redneck farmer
    @Anonymous

    Haven Monahan gets around.

  17. I tell you what, these caste rule are ripe to be made into an app. Use GPS info and a few calculations to inform the lower class users of the number of paces they are away from higher castes, which trees are climbable nearby, etc. They’ve all got phones over there, don’t they? Well, give the untouchables all phones then, very carefully.

    That is a good observation, Steve, that these “pollution” rules are like the current Social Distancing rules, and yes they are equally stupid. Target still had stickers on the floor, when I went there today, but I didn’t adhere (get it?) to them. I polluted the whole store up by not wearing a mask, well, me and a lady, who was the only one I saw without one. She was right behind me to check out, and we had a great conversation about the retards wearing masks driving down the road and other retarded stuff, right in front of everyone.

  18. “The Indians kept terrible historical records (compared to, say, the Chinese), so we don’t yet have much of a clue why the caste system emerged”

    The Laws of Manu (c. 200 BC) provide an explanation for the existence of caste. As originally conceived, caste was not inherited at birth. One is born with the tendencies and abilities of one of the four original castes, regardless of parents or ancestry. If there ever was a test to determine the caste of a newborn, that test has been lost or never existed. Nevertheless the idea of caste is a profound insight into human nature. The hereditary nature of the current caste system in India is a perverted interpretation of the original idea. That castes still flourish in India despite all attempts to eradicate them speaks to the power of the original idea.

    • Replies: @gcochran
    @tertius

    "a test to determine the caste" - Sorting Hat.

  19. Good chance the jati system preceded the aryans. India is similar to other Indo European societies in the trifold or fourfold division of society but the fine grained jati system is unique to India. And it is very prominent even in less Aryan areas such as Deep South India.

  20. @Anonymous
    Well dot Indians are another group of people Trump loves. He can't wait for Jan 1 to lift his 6 mos Visa Control Theater restrictions on students and foreign stem workers.

    If you think Trump is ever going to really crack down on the stem foreigners in the US -- at the direct expense of his new favorite minority group inside the GOP big tent coalition -- then you are sadly mistaken.

    Btw anybody know what caste category Indians put Americans into when they step off the plane stateside? I assume we are some version of goyim to them. Right. Dumb beasts to be worked like draft animals.

    Replies: @D. K., @JMcG

    ***

    “66 percent of Indian Americans currently favour Vice President Biden, 28 percent favour President Donald Trump, and 6 percent were undecided. In the 2016 presidential election, 77percent voted for Secretary Hillary Clinton, and 16 percent voted for President Trump. If the remaining undecided voters broke in the same pattern as those who have madeup their mind, Biden would secure 70 percent of the vote, when compared to 30 percent for Trump,” the report read.

    ***

    https://www.business-standard.com/article/us-elections/biden-holds-lead-over-trump-among-indian-american-voters-finds-survey-120091600256_1.html

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    @D. K.

    Why not let all of India vote in our elections?

    Replies: @D. K.

  21. @syonredux

    The Indians kept terrible historical records (compared to, say, the Chinese),
     
    Also compared to the Greeks and the Romans. There are no ancient Indian versions of Thucydides, Polybius, Tacitus, etc. Some have speculated that ancient India did have a more robust historiographical tradition, but that it has been lost, the Hindu mind seeing little merit in such things.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Neil Templeton

    the Hindu mind seeing little merit in such things

    Hinduism believes the world of appearances is can illusion, there is no progress, and it is cyclical.

    Such a culture will be uninterested in history.

    (I believe their attitude is largely correct).

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @AaronB


    Hinduism believes the world of appearances is can illusion, there is no progress, and it is cyclical.

    Such a culture will be uninterested in history.

    (I believe their attitude is largely correct).
     
    We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I like knowing things.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

  22. Following up my review in Taki’s Magazine of the bestseller Caste by Isabel Wilkerson, I’m reminded that many of the practices of the Hindu caste system sound like our current Social Distancing festishes gone nuts.

    Is October another panhandling month?

    • Troll: Escher
  23. Maybe the Aryans said to themselves: “We used to live by ourselves on the northern steppe, where we were poor and cold, but we were healthy. Now we live in India amongst all these Indians we conquered.

    David Reich’s book shows many castes have been maintained over 2,000 years.

    The extreme segregation must go back that far.

    As the population of America grows to one billion, the same thing will happen here. It just needs to happen as soon as possible so we can preserve actual White people.

  24. @syonredux

    The Indians kept terrible historical records (compared to, say, the Chinese),
     
    Also compared to the Greeks and the Romans. There are no ancient Indian versions of Thucydides, Polybius, Tacitus, etc. Some have speculated that ancient India did have a more robust historiographical tradition, but that it has been lost, the Hindu mind seeing little merit in such things.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Neil Templeton

    Which brings up other questions why do some societies keep better records? Is that factor related to trust, enslavement, diversity? Is it because of genetics?

  25. Caste in 2020:

    Pulayans and Parayars, who are the lowest of all…

    John Dolittle would disagree.

    Herd immunity doesn’t work when your only herd is bison.

  26. And these are the “best and brightest”, “highly skilled” that our tech plantation owners can’t seem to import enough of.

    And then we wonder why we are increasingly resembling the lands from which we brought in most of our immigrants.

    The joke is on us.

  27. @AaronB
    @syonredux


    the Hindu mind seeing little merit in such things
     
    Hinduism believes the world of appearances is can illusion, there is no progress, and it is cyclical.

    Such a culture will be uninterested in history.

    (I believe their attitude is largely correct).

    Replies: @syonredux

    Hinduism believes the world of appearances is can illusion, there is no progress, and it is cyclical.

    Such a culture will be uninterested in history.

    (I believe their attitude is largely correct).

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I like knowing things.

    • Agree: Mr McKenna, AnotherDad
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @syonredux

    Agree. But i'd go further:

    This or that detail may or may not be interesting to someone. But a basic grasp of human history in broad outline is essentially what's required to understand things and keep from believing stupid stuff.

    The ahistoricism of our current politics, particularly the utter lack of understand of how people actually lived and behaved allows stupid fantasies about human beings to take root and grow and is one of the roots of our current crisis.

  28. “The lower caste and untouchable women were expected to pay the government a tax on their breasts, as soon as they started developing breasts… Travancore tax collectors would visit every house to collect the Breast Tax from any lower caste women who passed the age of puberty. The tax was evaluated by the tax collectors depending on the size of their breasts.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_Tax

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    @Querc

    Thank God there's no similar tool tax for us men, right guys? Right?

    , @Please To Be Not Treading On Me
    @Querc

    Maybe that’s why many Indians are obsessed with Whiteness. Some of those Midwestern gals could subsidize an entire fire station.

  29. @Anonymous
    Well dot Indians are another group of people Trump loves. He can't wait for Jan 1 to lift his 6 mos Visa Control Theater restrictions on students and foreign stem workers.

    If you think Trump is ever going to really crack down on the stem foreigners in the US -- at the direct expense of his new favorite minority group inside the GOP big tent coalition -- then you are sadly mistaken.

    Btw anybody know what caste category Indians put Americans into when they step off the plane stateside? I assume we are some version of goyim to them. Right. Dumb beasts to be worked like draft animals.

    Replies: @D. K., @JMcG

    When my son was in Cub Scouts, I used to help out with the pinewood derby. Some of us would get together on a Saturday and give a hand to those kids who didn’t have a father around or whose dad didn’t have a workshop full of tools.
    There was one Indian kid in the pack who showed up with his mom for some help. I knew his dad was in the picture, so I asked if he was out of town. The mom informed me that to do manual labor was beneath the dignity of her husband and that he was not allowed to work with tools. So yeah, pretty much beasts to be driven.

    • Replies: @Escher
    @JMcG

    Agree. Many Indian men can’t even change a flat tire. They’re a solid customer base for AAA.

    , @Marty
    @JMcG

    A few years ago at a TJ’s in SF I remonstrated with an Indian couple about blocking the escalator. At the time I was wearing a blue, short-sleeved canvas shirt. The Indian man in his 50’s said to me, “you look like a janitor.”

  30. So how well did Twister sell in South India ?

  31. This is what I don’t understand. In much of the developing world one of the primary ways that rising/middle class people differentiate themselves from the working class/peasantry is by employing servants. Do Brahmins hire other Brahmins as cooks, maids, etc? Caste would seem like an ideal system to maintain a steady supply of people to do all the unpleasant tasks (like emptying chamber pots), but having to stay 36-96 paces away and ward off ritual pollution would make getting good help difficult, no?

    • Replies: @Mike1
    @Andrew Gilbert

    No they hire lower caste people. The distance stories would have been an outside the house, other peoples servants kinda thing.

    More established Indian families in the US all have family at home who have servants (slaves) who live in a similar manner to US dogs. They sleep on the kitchen floor at night. They are awake before the sun to make tea for the earliest rising family member. The same people in the US stand on street corners waving BLM flags. They love Modhi (a nationalist) and despise Trump (a nationalist).

    , @Please To Be Not Treading On Me
    @Andrew Gilbert

    Well as the article says Kerala was way more extreme than other areas.

    But in Gujarat for instance where there is a long tradition of commerce and cosmopolitanism, rich merchants often had Brahman cooks because food cooked by a Brahman can be eaten by anyone whereas if your cook was of a lower caste, some of your guests might not be able to partake. In fact a Gujarati (maybe Hindi and other languages too, not sure) word for household cook is “maharaj” which is also an honorific title for a priest. (And related to maharaja - a king.)

    Social hierarchy not necessarily == economic hierarchy.

  32. @Anonymous
    This doesn't strike me as social distancing:

    "Indian Low-caste Woman Dies After Gang-rape, Second This Week"

    https://www.ibtimes.com/indian-low-caste-woman-dies-after-gang-rape-second-week-3054976

    A woman from India's marginalised Dalit community has died after being gang-raped, police said Thursday, days after the death of a teenager from the same "untouchable" group at the hands of a group of high-caste men sparked outrage.
     

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Redneck farmer

    It’s exactly the same as social distancing. Just as social distancing is temporarily in abeyance when blacks want to riot or police swarm a maskless mother, Hindu ritual purity is temporarily in abeyance when high castes need to gangrape low castes.

  33. @Anonymous
    This doesn't strike me as social distancing:

    "Indian Low-caste Woman Dies After Gang-rape, Second This Week"

    https://www.ibtimes.com/indian-low-caste-woman-dies-after-gang-rape-second-week-3054976

    A woman from India's marginalised Dalit community has died after being gang-raped, police said Thursday, days after the death of a teenager from the same "untouchable" group at the hands of a group of high-caste men sparked outrage.
     

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Redneck farmer

    Haven Monahan gets around.

  34. Anonymous[203] • Disclaimer says:

    Sorry to tread on delicate sensibilities here, Steve, but I have an inkling it was lower and baser than that:
    To the invading Aryans the dark skinned natives of India simply *looked* dirty, and likely, for whatever reason, the Aryans found something about their everyday cultural and hygiene practices simply repulsive.

  35. @SFG
    Reasonable idea.

    Contagion from disease is a huge reason why people are (rightly) suspicious of outsiders. Until coronavirus people forgot how much of a threat infectious disease was to our ancestors.

    Replies: @Matt Buckalew, @Mr McKenna, @Captain Tripps

    Reasonable idea.

    Keep kosher, do you?

  36. @D. K.
    @Anonymous

    ***

    "66 percent of Indian Americans currently favour Vice President Biden, 28 percent favour President Donald Trump, and 6 percent were undecided. In the 2016 presidential election, 77percent voted for Secretary Hillary Clinton, and 16 percent voted for President Trump. If the remaining undecided voters broke in the same pattern as those who have madeup their mind, Biden would secure 70 percent of the vote, when compared to 30 percent for Trump," the report read.

    ***

    https://www.business-standard.com/article/us-elections/biden-holds-lead-over-trump-among-indian-american-voters-finds-survey-120091600256_1.html

    Replies: @Mr McKenna

    Why not let all of India vote in our elections?

    • Replies: @D. K.
    @Mr McKenna

    Why are you directing this inane question at me? Does my pointing out how Indian Americans actually voted in the 2016 presidential election, and how they are likely to vote next month, suggest to you, somehow, that I want my president to be chosen by a billion Third Worlders who hate and resent my country and my people?

  37. @Querc
    "The lower caste and untouchable women were expected to pay the government a tax on their breasts, as soon as they started developing breasts... Travancore tax collectors would visit every house to collect the Breast Tax from any lower caste women who passed the age of puberty. The tax was evaluated by the tax collectors depending on the size of their breasts."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_Tax

    Replies: @Mr McKenna, @Please To Be Not Treading On Me

    Thank God there’s no similar tool tax for us men, right guys? Right?

  38. @Andrew Gilbert
    This is what I don't understand. In much of the developing world one of the primary ways that rising/middle class people differentiate themselves from the working class/peasantry is by employing servants. Do Brahmins hire other Brahmins as cooks, maids, etc? Caste would seem like an ideal system to maintain a steady supply of people to do all the unpleasant tasks (like emptying chamber pots), but having to stay 36-96 paces away and ward off ritual pollution would make getting good help difficult, no?

    Replies: @Mike1, @Please To Be Not Treading On Me

    No they hire lower caste people. The distance stories would have been an outside the house, other peoples servants kinda thing.

    More established Indian families in the US all have family at home who have servants (slaves) who live in a similar manner to US dogs. They sleep on the kitchen floor at night. They are awake before the sun to make tea for the earliest rising family member. The same people in the US stand on street corners waving BLM flags. They love Modhi (a nationalist) and despise Trump (a nationalist).

    • Agree: Gordo
  39. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Matt Buckalew
    @SFG

    Ok but... the outsiders in this case were the aryans who supposedly imposed the caste purity system.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    … the aryans who supposedly imposed the caste purity system.

    More likely, the “Aryans” (Indo-European invaders from Persia who invaded India through the Hindukush but never imposed their language in Southern India) put themselves at the top of an existing purity system that had long been in place when they arrived.

    The rest of the Indo-European world (from Iceland to Bangla Desh and China, from Norway to Sicily and Odessa) apparently featured a tripartite class system – warriors, priests, farmers. There is no indication that there were purity taboos among these three. In addition, there were hereditary serfs, but serfs often seem to have lived in close proximity with their masters.

    An interesting question for a layman to ask in 2020 is: what types of hatefacts/hate theories are present-day academics UNABLE to express in public? What do publications hint at?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anonymous


    The rest of the Indo-European world (from Iceland to Bangla Desh and China, from Norway to Sicily and Odessa) apparently featured a tripartite class system – warriors, priests, farmers. There is no indication that there were purity taboos among these three.
     
    The difference between those places and India is climate. India is much hotter.

    Before modern medicine, Europeans in India had very high rates of mortality. Children were especially susceptible. The heat and associated diseases took a heavy toll.

    Presumably those ancient invaders noticed the same thing. India was a rich but deathly place. This is probably why they didn't conquer the southern half of the subcontinent, or at least didn't settle there in any significant numbers.
  40. @JMcG
    @Anonymous

    When my son was in Cub Scouts, I used to help out with the pinewood derby. Some of us would get together on a Saturday and give a hand to those kids who didn’t have a father around or whose dad didn’t have a workshop full of tools.
    There was one Indian kid in the pack who showed up with his mom for some help. I knew his dad was in the picture, so I asked if he was out of town. The mom informed me that to do manual labor was beneath the dignity of her husband and that he was not allowed to work with tools. So yeah, pretty much beasts to be driven.

    Replies: @Escher, @Marty

    Agree. Many Indian men can’t even change a flat tire. They’re a solid customer base for AAA.

  41. @Querc
    "The lower caste and untouchable women were expected to pay the government a tax on their breasts, as soon as they started developing breasts... Travancore tax collectors would visit every house to collect the Breast Tax from any lower caste women who passed the age of puberty. The tax was evaluated by the tax collectors depending on the size of their breasts."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_Tax

    Replies: @Mr McKenna, @Please To Be Not Treading On Me

    Maybe that’s why many Indians are obsessed with Whiteness. Some of those Midwestern gals could subsidize an entire fire station.

  42. @Andrew Gilbert
    This is what I don't understand. In much of the developing world one of the primary ways that rising/middle class people differentiate themselves from the working class/peasantry is by employing servants. Do Brahmins hire other Brahmins as cooks, maids, etc? Caste would seem like an ideal system to maintain a steady supply of people to do all the unpleasant tasks (like emptying chamber pots), but having to stay 36-96 paces away and ward off ritual pollution would make getting good help difficult, no?

    Replies: @Mike1, @Please To Be Not Treading On Me

    Well as the article says Kerala was way more extreme than other areas.

    But in Gujarat for instance where there is a long tradition of commerce and cosmopolitanism, rich merchants often had Brahman cooks because food cooked by a Brahman can be eaten by anyone whereas if your cook was of a lower caste, some of your guests might not be able to partake. In fact a Gujarati (maybe Hindi and other languages too, not sure) word for household cook is “maharaj” which is also an honorific title for a priest. (And related to maharaja – a king.)

    Social hierarchy not necessarily == economic hierarchy.

  43. @Mr McKenna
    @D. K.

    Why not let all of India vote in our elections?

    Replies: @D. K.

    Why are you directing this inane question at me? Does my pointing out how Indian Americans actually voted in the 2016 presidential election, and how they are likely to vote next month, suggest to you, somehow, that I want my president to be chosen by a billion Third Worlders who hate and resent my country and my people?

    • LOL: Mr McKenna
  44. @SFG
    Reasonable idea.

    Contagion from disease is a huge reason why people are (rightly) suspicious of outsiders. Until coronavirus people forgot how much of a threat infectious disease was to our ancestors.

    Replies: @Matt Buckalew, @Mr McKenna, @Captain Tripps

    Indeed; also, our ancient ancestors were always on guard against outsiders coming in, and spreading, iron and bronze poisoning in heavy doses. Natural suspicion tends to keep one healthy.

  45. The caste system as it exists today is thought to be the result of developments during the collapse of the Mughal era and the rise of the British colonial regime in India.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

    • Replies: @Nachum
    @George

    I have no problem believing that many "ancient" practices are relatively recent, but one must also be on the lookout for "It's all Whitey's fault" claims, which this smacks of (as in Rwanda).

    , @AnotherDad
    @George


    The caste system as it exists today is thought to be the result of developments during the collapse of the Mughal era and the rise of the British colonial regime in India.
     
    To the extent that isn't a tautology--of course what "exists today" is the result of everything in the past--it's nonsense.

    The British realized there was caste, and then counted and catalogued and in doing so firmed up and locked down the position of some groups that had more amorphous positions in their particular locality.

    But the DNA data utterly debunk that firm caste doesn't extend back through antiquity.

    If you do the principal component analysis on Euro DNA, the English look a bit different than the French, but--broad scale--almost all the English or French look about the same. Same rough percentages of ancient hunter gatherers, early farmers and Aryan invaders (or whatever extra Aryan invaders brought in). Over generations, basically everyone was mixed--tribes mixing; serf genes moving up, noble genes moving down the class hierarchy.

    In contrast, in every state in India different castes--who may live in the same town--have wildly different proportions of founding and invading populations. Caste has been part of India's deal--in a way not found anywhere else on the planet--for a very, very long time. Imagine the Jim Crow south, but for thousands of different groups ... held for 3000 years. A hideous nightmare social system.

  46. She’s still got the crazy eyes.

  47. @George
    The caste system as it exists today is thought to be the result of developments during the collapse of the Mughal era and the rise of the British colonial regime in India.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

    Replies: @Nachum, @AnotherDad

    I have no problem believing that many “ancient” practices are relatively recent, but one must also be on the lookout for “It’s all Whitey’s fault” claims, which this smacks of (as in Rwanda).

  48. I always thought that it was well-established that the Untouchable category, at least, was a result of the Aryans taking the country from the Dravidians. But now I see that Kamala Harris is a high-caste Dravidian, so I guess it’s more complicated than that.

    By the way, it wasn’t just Christians (and, I assume, Muslims) who adapted castes to their own purposes. Of the several distinct Jewish communities of India, at least some maintained caste-like distinctions between each other, sometimes in multiple directions- that is, each group claimed to be the superior to the other. (These castes have disappeared, especially as most Indian Jews have moved to Israel and those that remain are so few in number that the various communities have all merged, but I imagine their descendants still know which group they come from.)

  49. @JMcG
    @Anonymous

    When my son was in Cub Scouts, I used to help out with the pinewood derby. Some of us would get together on a Saturday and give a hand to those kids who didn’t have a father around or whose dad didn’t have a workshop full of tools.
    There was one Indian kid in the pack who showed up with his mom for some help. I knew his dad was in the picture, so I asked if he was out of town. The mom informed me that to do manual labor was beneath the dignity of her husband and that he was not allowed to work with tools. So yeah, pretty much beasts to be driven.

    Replies: @Escher, @Marty

    A few years ago at a TJ’s in SF I remonstrated with an Indian couple about blocking the escalator. At the time I was wearing a blue, short-sleeved canvas shirt. The Indian man in his 50’s said to me, “you look like a janitor.”

  50. It is pretty sad and pathetic that caste seemingly emboldens rapists in India. As a culture it does seem as if Indians generally turn a blind eye towards rape. One wonders if it’s due to the teachings of Hinduism, or if the caste structure plays a more significant part.
    https://thewire.in/caste/hathras-rape-victim-boolgarhi-village-caste-discrimination-everyday-reality-thakur-dalit

  51. @dvorak
    https://i.imgur.com/M2m6Iao.png

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Nicholas Stix, @AnotherDad

    Wow, were you ever quick!

  52. @syonredux
    @AaronB


    Hinduism believes the world of appearances is can illusion, there is no progress, and it is cyclical.

    Such a culture will be uninterested in history.

    (I believe their attitude is largely correct).
     
    We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I like knowing things.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    Agree. But i’d go further:

    This or that detail may or may not be interesting to someone. But a basic grasp of human history in broad outline is essentially what’s required to understand things and keep from believing stupid stuff.

    The ahistoricism of our current politics, particularly the utter lack of understand of how people actually lived and behaved allows stupid fantasies about human beings to take root and grow and is one of the roots of our current crisis.

  53. @George
    The caste system as it exists today is thought to be the result of developments during the collapse of the Mughal era and the rise of the British colonial regime in India.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

    Replies: @Nachum, @AnotherDad

    The caste system as it exists today is thought to be the result of developments during the collapse of the Mughal era and the rise of the British colonial regime in India.

    To the extent that isn’t a tautology–of course what “exists today” is the result of everything in the past–it’s nonsense.

    The British realized there was caste, and then counted and catalogued and in doing so firmed up and locked down the position of some groups that had more amorphous positions in their particular locality.

    But the DNA data utterly debunk that firm caste doesn’t extend back through antiquity.

    If you do the principal component analysis on Euro DNA, the English look a bit different than the French, but–broad scale–almost all the English or French look about the same. Same rough percentages of ancient hunter gatherers, early farmers and Aryan invaders (or whatever extra Aryan invaders brought in). Over generations, basically everyone was mixed–tribes mixing; serf genes moving up, noble genes moving down the class hierarchy.

    In contrast, in every state in India different castes–who may live in the same town–have wildly different proportions of founding and invading populations. Caste has been part of India’s deal–in a way not found anywhere else on the planet–for a very, very long time. Imagine the Jim Crow south, but for thousands of different groups … held for 3000 years. A hideous nightmare social system.

  54. @dvorak
    https://i.imgur.com/M2m6Iao.png

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Nicholas Stix, @AnotherDad

    I wouldn’t even type in OPE anymore.

    This minoritarian open borders, take-a-knee order isn’t worth saving. Bomb’s away–good riddance.

  55. It always seemed to me that Hinduism/Indians were the people least philosophically compatible with Western civilization.

    [MORE]

    Karma justified foul oppression for thousands of years. Blacks in America certainly had a raw deal, but the slave owners churches did not teach blacks that slavery and exploitation were their just punishment for sins in a previous life. I’m sure Southern whites used Christianity to justify slavery, but supporting slavery was not the most comfortable position for Christian churches. Hinduism is perfectly compatible with slavery: the slaves are being punished for their past lives, and it is their duty, their dharma, to obey and work.

    Even excluding the horrible situation of lower castes and Dalits, even compared to chattel slavery, dharma’s role in justifying and reinforcing the caste system is utterly incompatible with American ideals. They do not believe all men are created equal, that the same laws apply to rich and poor…we are a proposition nation, right liberals? Well, Hindus can’t accept the propositions.

    Even if the caste system did not necessitate exploitation, thousands of endogamous Jatis are not compatible with being a one people nation. As virtually everyone favors their in-group, which is usually clan, there is no possibility of laws applied fairly and equally. Every merchant is out to take advantage of his customers. I hate to harp on how we treated blacks, but with the exception of blacks and immigrants, we were close to being one people, and we were economically dynamic, though that has faded with increasing diversity. imagine if you were a ruler, descended from a long line of nobles and warriors, and some filthy ink-stained Shudra laborer invented a ‘printing press.’ Would you hire him to employ scribes and skilled laborers to improve it, build more, and print books? Lol, no. Every caste has it’s role to fill, and no one’s role was innovation or capitalistic dynamism.

    It disturbs me how quickly the high caste Indians have taken to the anti-White religion of the clever sillies. Speaking of the woke. I think when blacks who hate Whitex say, ‘we hate whites,’ woke whites (no capital for them!) think ‘right on! Republicans suck!’ and the blacks aren’t quite sure how to respond. Speaking of Chewbacca’s (they’re Wokies from Endor), how are colleges going to handle the uptick of non-whites they need to have some more of that sweet and precious black violence that is so in this year?

    Colleges have brought Asians and the unqualified minorities on board without increasing class size proportionately. They made room by cutting whites from groups with little elite pull, Scotch-Irish, Italian- and German-descendants all either took big hits or were never admitted in any number. Elite universities will start experiencing pressure on to not only admit more blacks, but to graduate them as well. Eventually pressure will mount to give them degrees in serious subjects; once blacks realize that employers consider blacks with sociology degrees to be the equivalent of whites with high school diplomas, or two-year degree holders, whom they match for IQ.

    Schools have threaded the needle of affirmative action and keeping campus environments conducive to…short term relationships in a safe and non-rapey manner by admitting ‘enough’ blacks, but admitting very few male-identifying, black-identifying ‘students.’ The pressure will be on for schools to stop that structurally racist behavior. They tried ghetto males in the seventies, and it did not go well. Do the school’s have institutional memories going back that far? If they do, will woke and heavily non-White administrators listen? I think they won’t remember, and will admit slim blacks far below the abilities of real students. Scrapping the SAT and ACT requirements will allow a lot of shenanigans from

    you-know-who

    and their pets.

    A saving grace for white male enrollment may be the coming drastic decline in international students. America looks like a much worse investment than it did a year ago. Even if Biden-Harris* open the floodgates, a year or two of black savagery on campus will dissuade Chinese money from investing in a bolt-hole in America. That’ll hurt urban high-end real estate and colleges the most. But empty Chinamen seats are an opportunity for under-represented whites to get co-opted by the establishment.

    *Anyone want to read my Biden/Harris ‘slash’ fiction?

    • Replies: @anon
    @Rob

    Was your omitting Native Americans from the one people nation ideal intentional or accidental?

  56. @Rob
    It always seemed to me that Hinduism/Indians were the people least philosophically compatible with Western civilization.

    Karma justified foul oppression for thousands of years. Blacks in America certainly had a raw deal, but the slave owners churches did not teach blacks that slavery and exploitation were their just punishment for sins in a previous life. I’m sure Southern whites used Christianity to justify slavery, but supporting slavery was not the most comfortable position for Christian churches. Hinduism is perfectly compatible with slavery: the slaves are being punished for their past lives, and it is their duty, their dharma, to obey and work.

    Even excluding the horrible situation of lower castes and Dalits, even compared to chattel slavery, dharma’s role in justifying and reinforcing the caste system is utterly incompatible with American ideals. They do not believe all men are created equal, that the same laws apply to rich and poor...we are a proposition nation, right liberals? Well, Hindus can’t accept the propositions.

    Even if the caste system did not necessitate exploitation, thousands of endogamous Jatis are not compatible with being a one people nation. As virtually everyone favors their in-group, which is usually clan, there is no possibility of laws applied fairly and equally. Every merchant is out to take advantage of his customers. I hate to harp on how we treated blacks, but with the exception of blacks and immigrants, we were close to being one people, and we were economically dynamic, though that has faded with increasing diversity. imagine if you were a ruler, descended from a long line of nobles and warriors, and some filthy ink-stained Shudra laborer invented a ‘printing press.’ Would you hire him to employ scribes and skilled laborers to improve it, build more, and print books? Lol, no. Every caste has it’s role to fill, and no one’s role was innovation or capitalistic dynamism.

    It disturbs me how quickly the high caste Indians have taken to the anti-White religion of the clever sillies. Speaking of the woke. I think when blacks who hate Whitex say, ‘we hate whites,’ woke whites (no capital for them!) think ‘right on! Republicans suck!’ and the blacks aren’t quite sure how to respond. Speaking of Chewbacca’s (they’re Wokies from Endor), how are colleges going to handle the uptick of non-whites they need to have some more of that sweet and precious black violence that is so in this year?

    Colleges have brought Asians and the unqualified minorities on board without increasing class size proportionately. They made room by cutting whites from groups with little elite pull, Scotch-Irish, Italian- and German-descendants all either took big hits or were never admitted in any number. Elite universities will start experiencing pressure on to not only admit more blacks, but to graduate them as well. Eventually pressure will mount to give them degrees in serious subjects; once blacks realize that employers consider blacks with sociology degrees to be the equivalent of whites with high school diplomas, or two-year degree holders, whom they match for IQ.

    Schools have threaded the needle of affirmative action and keeping campus environments conducive to...short term relationships in a safe and non-rapey manner by admitting ‘enough’ blacks, but admitting very few male-identifying, black-identifying ‘students.’ The pressure will be on for schools to stop that structurally racist behavior. They tried ghetto males in the seventies, and it did not go well. Do the school’s have institutional memories going back that far? If they do, will woke and heavily non-White administrators listen? I think they won’t remember, and will admit slim blacks far below the abilities of real students. Scrapping the SAT and ACT requirements will allow a lot of shenanigans from

    you-know-who
     
    and their pets.

    A saving grace for white male enrollment may be the coming drastic decline in international students. America looks like a much worse investment than it did a year ago. Even if Biden-Harris* open the floodgates, a year or two of black savagery on campus will dissuade Chinese money from investing in a bolt-hole in America. That’ll hurt urban high-end real estate and colleges the most. But empty Chinamen seats are an opportunity for under-represented whites to get co-opted by the establishment.

    *Anyone want to read my Biden/Harris ‘slash’ fiction?

    Replies: @anon

    Was your omitting Native Americans from the one people nation ideal intentional or accidental?

  57. @tertius
    "The Indians kept terrible historical records (compared to, say, the Chinese), so we don’t yet have much of a clue why the caste system emerged"

    The Laws of Manu (c. 200 BC) provide an explanation for the existence of caste. As originally conceived, caste was not inherited at birth. One is born with the tendencies and abilities of one of the four original castes, regardless of parents or ancestry. If there ever was a test to determine the caste of a newborn, that test has been lost or never existed. Nevertheless the idea of caste is a profound insight into human nature. The hereditary nature of the current caste system in India is a perverted interpretation of the original idea. That castes still flourish in India despite all attempts to eradicate them speaks to the power of the original idea.

    Replies: @gcochran

    “a test to determine the caste” – Sorting Hat.

  58. Anonymous[411] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @Matt Buckalew


    ... the aryans who supposedly imposed the caste purity system.
     
    More likely, the "Aryans" (Indo-European invaders from Persia who invaded India through the Hindukush but never imposed their language in Southern India) put themselves at the top of an existing purity system that had long been in place when they arrived.

    The rest of the Indo-European world (from Iceland to Bangla Desh and China, from Norway to Sicily and Odessa) apparently featured a tripartite class system - warriors, priests, farmers. There is no indication that there were purity taboos among these three. In addition, there were hereditary serfs, but serfs often seem to have lived in close proximity with their masters.

    An interesting question for a layman to ask in 2020 is: what types of hatefacts/hate theories are present-day academics UNABLE to express in public? What do publications hint at?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The rest of the Indo-European world (from Iceland to Bangla Desh and China, from Norway to Sicily and Odessa) apparently featured a tripartite class system – warriors, priests, farmers. There is no indication that there were purity taboos among these three.

    The difference between those places and India is climate. India is much hotter.

    Before modern medicine, Europeans in India had very high rates of mortality. Children were especially susceptible. The heat and associated diseases took a heavy toll.

    Presumably those ancient invaders noticed the same thing. India was a rich but deathly place. This is probably why they didn’t conquer the southern half of the subcontinent, or at least didn’t settle there in any significant numbers.

  59. @Steve: The Takimag article contains a couple bare links to Wikipedia, which, to avoid link-rot, should never be done in a published article. You should link to a particular version of the Wikipedia article to avoid problems with the renaming of articles and sections and to make sure that it actually still says what it did when you linked to it. Wikipedia is written in water, but the old versions are generally still on file.

    I forget the exact syntax to use in the url to do this, but it can be done (I used to know how, back before the Wikipedia Arbs semi-banned me for being politically incorrect and I gave up in disgust), and can probably be derived from the syntax of “diff” comparisons on an article’s “history” tab. If you have difficulty figuring this out, ask me and I’ll look into it.

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