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Britain Approves Pfizer Vaccine
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From the New York Times:

BREAKING
U.K. Approves Pfizer Coronavirus Vaccine, a First in the West

Emergency approval of the vaccine, ahead of the United States and the European Union, clears the way for Britain to begin mass inoculations.

By Benjamin Mueller
Dec. 2, 2020, 2:12 a.m. ET

LONDON — Britain gave emergency approval on Wednesday to Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine, leaping ahead of the United States to become the first Western country to allow mass inoculations against a disease that has killed more than 1.4 million people worldwide.

China, Russia, and the United Arab Emirates have approved at least one vaccine previously.

The authorization to use the vaccine developed by Pfizer, a U.S. pharmaceutical giant, and BioNTech, a much smaller German firm, kicked off a vaccination campaign with little precedent in modern medicine, encompassing not only ultracold dry ice and trays of glass vials but also a crusade against anti-vaccine misinformation.

The specter of Britain beating the United States to approval — on a vaccine co-developed by an American company, at that — may intensify pressure on U.S. regulators, who are already under fire from the White House for not moving faster to get doses to people.

The FDA meeting to consider the Pfizer application is scheduled for Thursday, December 10, nine days from now. Pfizer and its logistics partners are already doing dry runs of the type of air deliveries that it hopes to begin immediately upon FDA approval in the U.S.

And it has stirred up a global debate about how to weigh the desperate need for a vaccine with the imperative of assuring people that it is safe.

Russia and China have already approved vaccines without waiting for the results of large-scale efficacy tests, a decision that scientists in some cases have said poses serious risks. …

The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine must be transported at South Pole-like temperatures, a requirement that is already dictating who will be vaccinated: Nursing-home residents were supposed to be Britain’s top priority under an advisory committee’s plans, but a limit on how many times officials believe the vaccine can be moved before it loses effectiveness means that National Health Service staff members will receive the shots first.

A question is how many times can you open the freezer door to take out more vials?

The government has been coy about how quickly it could stock hospitals after approval, but doctors and nurses were preparing to begin vaccinating their colleagues within days.

For Britain, which has suffered one of Europe’s highest per capita death tolls from the virus, the decision by its drug regulator testified to a vaccination strategy that has been the most aggressive in the West.

After the government strengthened an old law that allows Britain to step out from under the European Union’s regulatory umbrella in public health emergencies, its Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency fast-tracked a review of the vaccine developed by Pfizer, based in New York, and BioNTech, a small German firm.

The EU meeting isn’t scheduled until December 29, and the required unanimous consent from all 27 countries isn’t expected to trickle in until the new year.

Britain has pre-ordered 40 million doses of the vaccine, which was 95 percent effective in a late-stage clinical trial. The government has ordered a catalog of different vaccines that are in development — in all, more than five doses for each person in the country.

 
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  1. This is so awesome. Listen to the video below. This kid James O’Keefe was recording CNN’s calls. He interrupts CNN Jeff Zucker on a conference call.

    Hahaha. I love this.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @JohnnyWalker123

    I watched this too. It's pretty hilarious.

    Have you seen anything about the actual content of the stuff Project Veritas has recorded from the CNN calls?

    I assume it must be pretty juicy, or they'd not have blown their cover.

    Project Veritas has been at their generally excellent work for a while now, but they still have yet to land what I would consider a really crushing blow to a big target. CNN is pretty big. I hope PV can burn them down good.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @AndrewR
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Is he a "kid" or are you just really old?

    Anyway, I agree with Calvinist. This might be enjoyable to those of us who hate CNN, but it's not like their bias is any secret, and people who like CNN won't care. We are very close to the limits of how much polarization there can be without outright war.

    , @Muggles
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Word is, CNN is up for sale.

    Could be changes in the wind with that.

  2. Yes there’s a “desperate need” for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK…
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    Oh the exponentiality!

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @Sean
    @vhrm

    A second lockdown in England has only ended today.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Anonymous

    , @Mark G.
    @vhrm

    I think one of the reasons they are rushing this vaccine through here in the U.S. is because they want to pressure everyone to get it and it will be harder to do that if cases are on the decline, as may happen.

    , @Travis
    @vhrm

    if they were really so desperate for this vaccine, Pfizer would not have halted their study 10 days prior to the election and the FDA would have their meeting today instead of next week to determine if they will grant emergency authorization for it.

    Government Model Suggests 100 million Americans have already recovered from COVID. The actual number of coronavirus infections in the U.S. reached nearly 53 million in September and could be approaching 100 million now, according to a model developed by government researchers. The model, created by scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, calculated that the true number of infections is about eight times the reported number, which includes only the cases confirmed by a laboratory test....The model accounts for the fact that most cases of COVID-19 are mild or asymptomatic and go unreported. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/11/26/939365087/government-model-suggests-u-s-covid-19-cases-could-be-approaching-100-million

    Hopefully most of the 100 million Americans who have recovered from CV are now immune.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @HA
    @vhrm

    "Yes there’s a 'desperate need' for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK…
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now."

    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England's second lockdown, so any of you Fox Butterfield-fallacists out there who think that this somehow proves that lockdowns and anti-COVID measures (that includes a vaccine) aren't useful are sorely misguided:

    CNN: Coronavirus cases fell by roughly 30% during England's lockdown

    Replies: @vhrm, @Fatmanscoop

    , @LondonBob
    @vhrm

    The tested positive is still based on highly unreliable PCR tests and the deaths are merely those of people who tested positive, yes from those same highly unreliable tests, who then die within twenty eight days.

  3. @JohnnyWalker123
    This is so awesome. Listen to the video below. This kid James O'Keefe was recording CNN's calls. He interrupts CNN Jeff Zucker on a conference call.

    https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1333800270728294401

    https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1333774463935111173

    Hahaha. I love this.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @AndrewR, @Muggles

    I watched this too. It’s pretty hilarious.

    Have you seen anything about the actual content of the stuff Project Veritas has recorded from the CNN calls?

    I assume it must be pretty juicy, or they’d not have blown their cover.

    Project Veritas has been at their generally excellent work for a while now, but they still have yet to land what I would consider a really crushing blow to a big target. CNN is pretty big. I hope PV can burn them down good.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    What is the expose' going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Johann Ricke, @Jonathan Mason

  4. I’ve been watching the UK news, especially on COVID, pretty closely for the past couple of months because Daughter C started university there this autumn. Since I am more accustomed to the indeterminacy and variability of the USA’s state-by-state responses, I’ve found quite remarkable how the UK’s centralized, parliamentary government can make and implement what are pretty much snap decisions.

    Now, that’s not to say that all of the decisions the UK government has made have been good ones — far from it. But they can in some circumstances get things done really quickly.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    Now, that’s not to say that all of the decisions the UK government has made have been good ones — far from it. But they can in some circumstances get things done really quickly.
     
    Yes, they saw other nations destroying parts of their economy, and then Boris said, “Hold my pint.”

    Hey @Steve, you can take my place in the vaccine queue.

  5. @vhrm
    Yes there's a "desperate need" for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK...
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    https://i.postimg.cc/qBSDVRKN/image.png

    Oh the exponentiality!

    Replies: @Sean, @Mark G., @Travis, @HA, @LondonBob

    A second lockdown in England has only ended today.

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    @Sean

    There is the old joke of the guy with this ugly looking object in his front yard that bothers the neighbors. One of the neighbors gets the courage to ask, "Hey Larry, what is with that odd looking thing in your front yard? All the neighbors are wondering."

    "It's to scare away the elephants that they don't trample my flower beds."

    "Larry, be serious for a moment. There are no elephants in this neighborhood."

    "See, it is working!"

    Not claiming that lockdowns, masks, etc are to scare the elephants, but it is hard to tell sometimes if the elephants were scared off or if after a while, they leave on their own.

    , @Anonymous
    @Sean

    Black cUK down

  6. The swine flu vaccine passed 4 years of safety trials before it was approved. It still had to be withdrawn.

    https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-damaged-uk-victims-swine-flu-vaccine-get-60-million-compensation-1438572

    An RNA vaccine for something almost completely harmless to me is one I will pass up. The Russian Sputnik vaccine is a more traditional vaccine, a mild or dead version of the virus, and less risky. Given I live in London I expect I would have had the virus already, if I am susceptible. Besides there is every evidence it has mutated in to a milder form already.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @LondonBob


    The swine flu vaccine passed 4 years of safety trials before it was approved.
     
    Citation Needed, but even then, from the fine article:

    It was subsequently revealed that the vaccine, Pandemrix, can cause narcolepsy and cataplexy in about one in 16,000 people
     
    Guess what you're not guaranteed to find when your Phase III trial has only 7,400 t0 30,000 people getting the vaccines? That range in subjects is from the lowest and highest numbers I know of for current and planned COVID-19 Phase III trials, Novavax and Janssen.

    What's important is to figure out how this mistake happened, which I've not gotten the impression was not done. Given that it was very possibly created to be the cheapest flu vaccine possible, based on where the side effects were reported and their known drug purchasing policies....

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @gcochran
    @LondonBob

    It's less risky, you are susceptible if you haven't had it, and there's no evidence it has become milder.

  7. @The Last Real Calvinist
    I've been watching the UK news, especially on COVID, pretty closely for the past couple of months because Daughter C started university there this autumn. Since I am more accustomed to the indeterminacy and variability of the USA's state-by-state responses, I've found quite remarkable how the UK's centralized, parliamentary government can make and implement what are pretty much snap decisions.

    Now, that's not to say that all of the decisions the UK government has made have been good ones -- far from it. But they can in some circumstances get things done really quickly.

    Replies: @The Alarmist

    Now, that’s not to say that all of the decisions the UK government has made have been good ones — far from it. But they can in some circumstances get things done really quickly.

    Yes, they saw other nations destroying parts of their economy, and then Boris said, “Hold my pint.”

    Hey @Steve, you can take my place in the vaccine queue.

  8. Dr Mike Yeadon also has graves concerns about these vaccines, better qualified than most involved.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @LondonBob

    Based on their leading safety complaint about the potential for antibody-dependent amplification, it's pretty safe to toss their entire petition unless you have domain knowledge about other claims.

    Because this well known problem was believed solved for RSV and then coronaviruses and SARS type coronaviruses well before the SARS-CoV-2 sequence was released on January 10th, and as I understand it, now that we know what it's all about, it's pretty easy to test for. Also, it is of a nature that it likely would have been noticed in Phase II trials, which enroll hundreds of people, some of whom are going to get COVID-19 sooner or later. See first this, and then this for the molecular biology details.

    TL;DR: If I know they're blowing smoke with one part of their demand to halt all COVID-19 vaccine testing---and why the f*** did they wait so long??---why should I pay attention to other claims where I'm not up to speed?

    A better TL;DR, and probably related to the unconscionable delay: this is just virtue signaling, laying down a marker just in case something disastrous happens with one or more of these vaccines.

  9. @vhrm
    Yes there's a "desperate need" for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK...
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    https://i.postimg.cc/qBSDVRKN/image.png

    Oh the exponentiality!

    Replies: @Sean, @Mark G., @Travis, @HA, @LondonBob

    I think one of the reasons they are rushing this vaccine through here in the U.S. is because they want to pressure everyone to get it and it will be harder to do that if cases are on the decline, as may happen.

  10. At least the Brits are serious about it. Our bureaucrats are dragging their feet in comparison. Trump pushed to knock down most of the usual obstacles, but the bureaucrats still drag their feet. And lives will be lost so they can feel good about standing up to Orange Man Bad.

  11. Congratulations to the British people! I hope the Mark of the Beast fits you well!

    Do British readers and commenters here actually have a license?

    • Replies: @thud
    @Another German Reader

    Pardon?

  12. I wish that I was confident in any of the information about the Coronavirus®, the real medical effects of infection therefrom, the efficacy treatments and preventative vaccines, the accuracy of testing, any of it. Any of the aggregations of that info are suspect as well. There is a virus, and beyond that is uncertain.

    I am interested in more full reporting about how so many different organizations come up with so many different vaccines (and quite different) so quickly. Is it smart application of new knowledge and technology, or just anothe scam? I really don’t know, and neither does any other common cur. Trust in the class running and reporting big government/corporate efforts seems to be in short supply. With me, at least

    I don’t take flu vaccines. I won’t take this on either.

  13. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @JohnnyWalker123

    I watched this too. It's pretty hilarious.

    Have you seen anything about the actual content of the stuff Project Veritas has recorded from the CNN calls?

    I assume it must be pretty juicy, or they'd not have blown their cover.

    Project Veritas has been at their generally excellent work for a while now, but they still have yet to land what I would consider a really crushing blow to a big target. CNN is pretty big. I hope PV can burn them down good.

    Replies: @Jack D

    What is the expose’ going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Jack D

    It is pretty unique and helpful that you have the boss of the company directly instructing everyone, every morning, in what to think. The current conceit of CNN (which is effective on many people) is the notion that they have all arrived at this mouthfoaming independently. Back in the early 90s a good satire of the new CNN would be Ted Turner telling people to defend Southern wealth or colorization, and here it is happening for real.

    , @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    What is the expose’ going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.
     
    Conservatives know this. Middle of the road, wishy washy types, not so much. Criminal charges, along with discovery, would presumably make the bias clear even to moderates, assuming the media does cover that aspect of it. What's sad, though is the high likelihood that media coverage will focus, laser-like, on the *real* outrage, that Project Veritas listened in on CNN's conference calls. Doesn't the media have a right to privacy not subject to the prying eyes and ears of the Nazi right?

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Jack D

    CNN is pro Democrat and FOX pro Republican. Neither is much use for objective information about US politics, but their affiliations are hardly a secret. They are okay for sports and weather news.

  14. I understand that this is a not only a new vaccine but a new type of vaccine. Doesn’t seem like a really good idea for anyone to get the jab, given the potential for long term side effects, unless you are in the segment most at-risk to die “from” COVID. But given this segment is mostly “dying people” I’m not sure what the point is really.

    The whole thing is turning into the most unbelievable farce imaginable. We are still pretending that those “leaked” Chinese cellphone videos of people dropping dead in the street and in the ER or welding shut apartment building doors are real and appropriate steps to take. Would be interesting to know why the billions we spend on electronic spying weren’t able to discern these videos were faked (or didn’t they).

    In a civilized country the emperor would have his “wicked advisors” who came up with such terrible policies as masks and lockdowns put to the sword.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    @Ben H

    I expect the fake videos of people dropping dead in China were from 'our' side, so now we have to continue pretending so that the useless, corrupt, lying spooks don't have to admit they failed again, see 'The Tailor of Panama'.

  15. @Jack D
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    What is the expose' going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Johann Ricke, @Jonathan Mason

    It is pretty unique and helpful that you have the boss of the company directly instructing everyone, every morning, in what to think. The current conceit of CNN (which is effective on many people) is the notion that they have all arrived at this mouthfoaming independently. Back in the early 90s a good satire of the new CNN would be Ted Turner telling people to defend Southern wealth or colorization, and here it is happening for real.

  16. The UK has one-fifth the population of the US and is smaller than the state of Michigan.

    Looked at another way, it has about as many people as California and Texas combined. Individual states have been making decisions of the same magnitude, and over far, far larger areas, than the UK.

    Then again, if you want top-down, unquestioned authority in really big way, you can always go to China. One hears they really know how to get things done.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Buzz Mohawk


    The UK has one-fifth the population of the US and is smaller than the state of Michigan.
     
    Not really. That 97,000 sq miles that is equivalent to the UK, includes huge chunks of the Great Lakes. It's not what most of us think of as "Michigan".

    Wyoming (97k) is about the size of the UK--or the old West Germany. Michigan is about the size of (a bit bigger) than England.

    Not to be a tedious bore here, but i think having a few of these rough US-Europe comparisons aids understanding.

    A few more that i use:

    -- France (metropolitan), 210,000 sqmi, is about 80% the size of Texas.

    -- European densities aren't all outside the US norm.
    The high population US states of the industrial midwest--ex. Ohio or Pennsylvania--are close to the density of France. Take 5 Ohios or Pennsylvannias squished together ... France. (Minus the better food, slimmer women and smoking.)

    -- But the dense parts of Europe are quite dense.
    England is a bit smaller than the size of New York state ... with three times the population.
    The Netherlands is akin to two New Jerseys jammed together.

    -- Sweden (in the news with the Corona virus)
    We have a commenter who continually blabs about it's low density. But it's really a bottom third/quarter that's populated (with three major metros) more or less like a 10-millionish US midwestern state--Michigan, Ohio--then something sized/populated between Wyoming or Montana jammed on top.

    (Yeah, i like this geography stuff.)
  17. @JohnnyWalker123
    This is so awesome. Listen to the video below. This kid James O'Keefe was recording CNN's calls. He interrupts CNN Jeff Zucker on a conference call.

    https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1333800270728294401

    https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1333774463935111173

    Hahaha. I love this.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @AndrewR, @Muggles

    Is he a “kid” or are you just really old?

    Anyway, I agree with Calvinist. This might be enjoyable to those of us who hate CNN, but it’s not like their bias is any secret, and people who like CNN won’t care. We are very close to the limits of how much polarization there can be without outright war.

  18. anon[665] • Disclaimer says:

    Since this is killing 1500 Americans/day, which is the equivalent of 7 Jetliner crashes/day, the US needs to approve immediately. Under OWS, the FDA is getting data as soon as available, they are going to have to make a decision soon.

    Then they can roll out 10 million vaccinations by the end of December and about 1 million/day beginning Jan 1. After 10 million, I will be happy with the testing and ready to queue up.

    Meanwhile, the CDC speculates that their current estimate for actual cases is 8x the reported number, or now 100m million. The current reported cases would then be over 1 million day. And 150 million would set the stage for herd immunity. From WSJ:

    Not only did Covid-19 likely appear in the U.S. earlier than previously known, but researchers have found evidence that the virus is far more widespread in the U.S. than testing indicates.

    Some 53 million people in the U.S. likely had contracted Covid-19 by the end of September, according to a modeling estimate published last week by CDC researchers. Roughly 6.9 million infections had been confirmed within that time period, suggesting that roughly one in every eight cases was identified.

    We are set for the Biden miracle. His example of masking and distancing will wrap this bad boy up within a month. One way or another.

    • Replies: @peterike
    @anon


    Since this is killing 1500 Americans/day
     
    No, 1500 Americans a day are dying and their death is attributed to Covid-19, even if they had nothing but inactive virus RNA in their systems.

    which is the equivalent of 7 Jetliner crashes/day

     

    Lol! Fear-monger much?

    After 10 million, I will be happy with the testing and ready to queue up.

     

    So you're happy to fear monger with a lot of rancid baloney, but when it comes time to put up for what you want to impose on the rest of us, you slink to the back of the line. How noble you are.

    We are set for the Biden miracle. His example of masking and distancing will wrap this bad boy up within a month

     

    I assume this some kind of badly played joke or sarcasm.
  19. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines require two shots several weeks apart, so one question I’ve had is how much protection do you get from the first shot alone. E.g., you are a doctor, you get the first shot, and then a week later, before you’ve had the booster, you get a heavy dose of the virus from a patient. I would assume there is some level of protection at that point, but I wonder how much. Presumably that could be quantified by the same type of trials that are already being conducted, but you’d probably need more participants.

  20. Anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:

    On December 1, 2020, the ex-Pfizer head of respiratory research Dr. Michael Yeadon and the lung specialist and former head of the public health department Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg filed an application with the EMA, the European Medicine Agency responsible for EU-wide drug approval, for the immediate suspension of all SARS CoV 2 vaccine studies, in particular the BioNtech/Pfizer study on BNT162b (EudraCT number 2020-002641-42).
    https://2020news.de/en/dr-wodarg-and-dr-yeadon-request-a-stop-of-all-corona-vaccination-studies-and-call-for-co-signing-the-petition/
    The vaccinations are expected to produce antibodies against spike proteins of SARS-CoV-2. However, spike proteins also contain syncytin-homologous proteins, which are essential for the formation of the placenta in mammals such as humans. It must be absolutely ruled out that a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 could trigger an immune reaction against syncytin-1, as otherwise infertility of indefinite duration could result in vaccinated women.

    The formation of so-called “non-neutralizing antibodies” can lead to an exaggerated immune reaction, especially when the test person is confronted with the real, “wild” virus after vaccination. This so-called antibody-dependent amplification, ADE, has long been known from experiments with corona vaccines in cats, for example. In the course of these studies all cats that initially tolerated the vaccination well died after catching the wild virus.

    although there was a ton of evidence that covid-19 was genetically engineered (CF Chinese whistleblower virologist lady) there was question why bother genetically engineering covid since it’s not very deadly. one answer could be: to ensure vaccines would render the population infertile. if that seems too evil for you, you haven’t been paying attention. check out Georgia Guidestones.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    Why don't you write to the FDA about this? They would be amazed to learn of your groundbreaking scientific findings. I'm sure they haven't considered any of this, or maybe they are in on the conspiracy?

    Replies: @Anonymous

  21. Your technical question has a simple answer: you can open a fancy freezer just as often as you can open an ice-packed cooler or a regular home freezer. Americans used to export ice across the planet (or was it Canadians?). Coldness does not run away the second you open the door, you just need to open the door.

    Source: I used to have lots of power cuts in America. Rebuilding the network, they said. You learn quickly that an unpowered freezer holds for many days in a row if you don’t open the door. If you open it, you just need to tape the door closed, door sealing being a different function vs actual cooling.

  22. OT: Kinda. Do we have a final conclusion on the use of Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, and Zinc? There has been little news on it, and I thought it was found useless when Trump didn’t attribute it for his recovery from Covid 19. Then I saw this which pretty much states that HCQ and Zinc are an effective tool against the virus.
    https://hcqmeta.com/
    And this.
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/study-finds-84-fewer-hospitalizations-for-patients-treated-with-controversial-drug-hydroxychloroquine

    There are many smart people on this site. What say you?

    • Replies: @Dago Shoes
    @MalePaleStale

    There were doctors championing the chloroquine/zpack/zinc cocktail very early on -- about February, as I recall. About 10 weeks ago, more than 1,500 physicians who have used this cocktail tried to publicize their results in a sort of video conference -- but Twitter censored it out of existence. These doctors had treated well over 100,000 patients successfully … but we're not allowed to hear what goes against the agenda.

    Fauci likely hasn't treated a patient since medical school and/or his internship … he's been a career federal government bureaucrat his entire post-school life. He's the gatekeeper for billion$ of federal dollar$ every year for 'research' by big pharma and big education … and his 'success' record -- going back to 1980 when he warned the US that 20-25% of the heterosexual population would die of aids -- is anything but inspiring.

    , @LondonBob
    @MalePaleStale

    https://twitter.com/PeterGrandich/status/1333913947959914497?s=20

  23. When I see “vaccine” in one of Steve’s headlines, I immediately glaze over. Well, at least it reduces how much I have to read.

  24. @Jack D
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    What is the expose' going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Johann Ricke, @Jonathan Mason

    What is the expose’ going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.

    Conservatives know this. Middle of the road, wishy washy types, not so much. Criminal charges, along with discovery, would presumably make the bias clear even to moderates, assuming the media does cover that aspect of it. What’s sad, though is the high likelihood that media coverage will focus, laser-like, on the *real* outrage, that Project Veritas listened in on CNN’s conference calls. Doesn’t the media have a right to privacy not subject to the prying eyes and ears of the Nazi right?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Johann Ricke


    Criminal charges, along with discovery, would presumably make the bias clear even to moderates,
     
    What is the crime? Pretending to be a real news organization?
  25. @vhrm
    Yes there's a "desperate need" for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK...
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    https://i.postimg.cc/qBSDVRKN/image.png

    Oh the exponentiality!

    Replies: @Sean, @Mark G., @Travis, @HA, @LondonBob

    if they were really so desperate for this vaccine, Pfizer would not have halted their study 10 days prior to the election and the FDA would have their meeting today instead of next week to determine if they will grant emergency authorization for it.

    Government Model Suggests 100 million Americans have already recovered from COVID. The actual number of coronavirus infections in the U.S. reached nearly 53 million in September and could be approaching 100 million now, according to a model developed by government researchers. The model, created by scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, calculated that the true number of infections is about eight times the reported number, which includes only the cases confirmed by a laboratory test….The model accounts for the fact that most cases of COVID-19 are mild or asymptomatic and go unreported. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/11/26/939365087/government-model-suggests-u-s-covid-19-cases-could-be-approaching-100-million

    Hopefully most of the 100 million Americans who have recovered from CV are now immune.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @Travis


    if they were really so desperate for this vaccine, Pfizer would not have halted their study 10 days prior to the election
     
    Bzzzt! Pfizer/BioNTech simply stashed samples to RT-PCR test for a while, but this didn't delay their application for a FDA Emergency Use Authorization(EUA) which happened on the 20th of November.

    They'd previously said, and knew with absolute certainty, they wouldn't have the required safety data until the 3rd week of November. It's two months of data from at least one half of the people who got the vaccine in the Phase III trial. Moderna also had sufficient efficacy data for an EUA before enough safety data, remember both of "safe and effective" is required for any level of approval (an EUA is just the beginning in the US).


    and the FDA would have their meeting today instead of next week to determine if they will grant emergency authorization for it.
     
    You a) no nothing about the FDA and b) you think they just set the application aside then start reading it on the meeting day??? Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I'm typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.

    Replies: @candid_observer, @vhrm

  26. Who’s going to replace the UK healthcare workers after they die from the vaccine?

    • Replies: @thud
    @Fred Flintstone

    They are going to die?....you should let people know.

  27. …National Health Service staff will receive the shots first.

    How many of those doctors and nurses in the Service, mostly young and in good health, have died a death attributed, rightly or wrongly, to Covid, or even been hospitalized for a severe case of it?

    Exposed as these medical personnel presumably are, in the course of performing their jobs, to all kinds of infectious disease, they probably have immune systems that are especially strong.

  28. anon[314] • Disclaimer says:

    From WSJ:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said that large-scale vaccinations against Covid-19 with Russia’s homegrown jab could begin by the end of next week, as the virus spread in the country shows few signs of abating.

    Mr. Putin said on Wednesday that Russia would soon produce two million doses of the Sputnik V vaccine, which was approved in August after a fast-tracked process. Data from clinical trials released last month showed it was 91.4% effective in protecting people from Covid-19.

    “This gives us the opportunity to start, if not mass, then at least large-scale vaccination,” Mr. Putin said at a government meeting, adding that the rollout would begin with high-risk groups such as doctors and teachers.

    So if the US dawdles with the approval, they will have some splaining to do.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @anon

    If Russia has only produced 2 million doses then the US is going to pass them in a matter of weeks because we plan to have at least 20 million doses available by year end.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @anon


    From WSJ:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said that large-scale vaccinations against Covid-19 with Russia’s homegrown jab could begin by the end of next week....

     

    So if the US dawdles with the approval, they will have some splaining to do.
     
    As much as I love your your reference, the US does not have to at the level of Lucille Ball on the stage. Because if the companies and Trump had declared victory as soon as they had early results from Phase II trials, we'd already have vaccinated tens of millions of people with vaccines who's safety and efficacy (sorry, @vhrm) have not been even vaguely proven for real.

    Russia/Putin and their Sputnik V vaccine approval announcement and boasting got so much criticism, and more and more I see well deserved because it fooled so many people including you, because they did it one month before the started their Phase III trial (the latter September 10th). And having made it such a political football they're staking a lot of prestige on, you're invited to imagine the probability of any bad news coming out of their Phase III trial. We'll have to wait until it's widely used outside of Russia etc.'s ability to censor.

    All that said, in theory it should be a very good vaccine. But like all the other viral vector ones, it took longer to create candidates for testing than the mRNA ones, and maybe longer in the very earliest of testing. Also, I don't know if they use the tweak developed in the US to stabilize the spike protein and avoid antibody-dependent enhancement; BioNTech in Germany, and Moderna and Janssen in the US have, and I've read from an unreliable source Oxford didn't.
  29. @Johann Ricke
    @Jack D


    What is the expose’ going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.
     
    Conservatives know this. Middle of the road, wishy washy types, not so much. Criminal charges, along with discovery, would presumably make the bias clear even to moderates, assuming the media does cover that aspect of it. What's sad, though is the high likelihood that media coverage will focus, laser-like, on the *real* outrage, that Project Veritas listened in on CNN's conference calls. Doesn't the media have a right to privacy not subject to the prying eyes and ears of the Nazi right?

    Replies: @Jack D

    Criminal charges, along with discovery, would presumably make the bias clear even to moderates,

    What is the crime? Pretending to be a real news organization?

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
  30. @Anonymous
    On December 1, 2020, the ex-Pfizer head of respiratory research Dr. Michael Yeadon and the lung specialist and former head of the public health department Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg filed an application with the EMA, the European Medicine Agency responsible for EU-wide drug approval, for the immediate suspension of all SARS CoV 2 vaccine studies, in particular the BioNtech/Pfizer study on BNT162b (EudraCT number 2020-002641-42).
    https://2020news.de/en/dr-wodarg-and-dr-yeadon-request-a-stop-of-all-corona-vaccination-studies-and-call-for-co-signing-the-petition/
    The vaccinations are expected to produce antibodies against spike proteins of SARS-CoV-2. However, spike proteins also contain syncytin-homologous proteins, which are essential for the formation of the placenta in mammals such as humans. It must be absolutely ruled out that a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 could trigger an immune reaction against syncytin-1, as otherwise infertility of indefinite duration could result in vaccinated women.

    The formation of so-called “non-neutralizing antibodies” can lead to an exaggerated immune reaction, especially when the test person is confronted with the real, “wild” virus after vaccination. This so-called antibody-dependent amplification, ADE, has long been known from experiments with corona vaccines in cats, for example. In the course of these studies all cats that initially tolerated the vaccination well died after catching the wild virus.
    ---
    although there was a ton of evidence that covid-19 was genetically engineered (CF Chinese whistleblower virologist lady) there was question why bother genetically engineering covid since it's not very deadly. one answer could be: to ensure vaccines would render the population infertile. if that seems too evil for you, you haven't been paying attention. check out Georgia Guidestones.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Why don’t you write to the FDA about this? They would be amazed to learn of your groundbreaking scientific findings. I’m sure they haven’t considered any of this, or maybe they are in on the conspiracy?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    your sarcasm is so wrong it's frightening.
    in the first place you can see for yourself they haven't tested for this. do you think they've had pregnancies already among the trial participants? and some of these effects are slow to develop.

    in the second place, the science is unanimous that the vaccine aluminum is highly damaging to kids. the FDA and the CDC don't have a single empirical paper they can point to saying it's safe, and there is an extensive literature saying it causes autism and other problems. you've never heard that from the CDC and the FDA though. they lie about this kind of stuff routinely.

    Replies: @Jack D

  31. The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine must be transported at South Pole-like temperatures, a requirement that is already dictating who will be vaccinated: Nursing-home residents were supposed to be Britain’s top priority under an advisory committee’s plans, but a limit on how many times officials believe the vaccine can be moved before it loses effectiveness means that National Health Service staff members will receive the shots first.

    Am I the only one who has no idea what this could possibly mean?

    If this is a problem, why isn’t it a permanent problem?

    OTOH, here’s the way they plan to deal with the Pfizer vaccine in Ohio:

    Ohio releases vaccine distribution plan once approved by FDA

    https://www.whio.com/news/local/ohio-releases-vaccine-distribution-plan-once-approved-by-fda/VPDXHSHSMBHAPBWCIPUSIJG5OM/

  32. @anon
    From WSJ:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said that large-scale vaccinations against Covid-19 with Russia's homegrown jab could begin by the end of next week, as the virus spread in the country shows few signs of abating.

    Mr. Putin said on Wednesday that Russia would soon produce two million doses of the Sputnik V vaccine, which was approved in August after a fast-tracked process. Data from clinical trials released last month showed it was 91.4% effective in protecting people from Covid-19.

    "This gives us the opportunity to start, if not mass, then at least large-scale vaccination," Mr. Putin said at a government meeting, adding that the rollout would begin with high-risk groups such as doctors and teachers.
     

    So if the US dawdles with the approval, they will have some splaining to do.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling

    If Russia has only produced 2 million doses then the US is going to pass them in a matter of weeks because we plan to have at least 20 million doses available by year end.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Jack D


    If Russia has only produced 2 million doses then the US is going to pass them in a matter of weeks because we plan to have at least 20 million doses available by year end.
     
    My understanding: the mRNA vaccines are just much easier/cheaper to produce. That's one of the key advantages. Along with targeted, they lend themselves to standardized mass production.... but the mRNA is fragile and ergo the deep refrigeration.

    I'm game. I think the virus has a very low chance of killing me--old guy, but basically zero of these "comorbidities". But i haven't yet heard a compelling narrative of why the mRNA should send me tumbling into auto-immune disasterville either.
  33. The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine must be transported at South Pole-like temperatures, a requirement that is already dictating who will be vaccinated: Nursing-home residents were supposed to be Britain’s top priority under an advisory committee’s plans, but a limit on how many times officials believe the vaccine can be moved before it loses effectiveness means that National Health Service staff members will receive the shots first.

    Am I the only one who has no idea what this could possibly mean?

    If this is a problem, why isn’t it a permanent problem?

    OTOH, here’s the way they plan to deal with the Pfizer vaccine in Ohio:

    Ohio releases vaccine distribution plan once approved by FDA

    https://www.whio.com/news/local/ohio-releases-vaccine-distribution-plan-once-approved-by-fda/VPDXHSHSMBHAPBWCIPUSIJG5OM/

  34. @Travis
    @vhrm

    if they were really so desperate for this vaccine, Pfizer would not have halted their study 10 days prior to the election and the FDA would have their meeting today instead of next week to determine if they will grant emergency authorization for it.

    Government Model Suggests 100 million Americans have already recovered from COVID. The actual number of coronavirus infections in the U.S. reached nearly 53 million in September and could be approaching 100 million now, according to a model developed by government researchers. The model, created by scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, calculated that the true number of infections is about eight times the reported number, which includes only the cases confirmed by a laboratory test....The model accounts for the fact that most cases of COVID-19 are mild or asymptomatic and go unreported. https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/11/26/939365087/government-model-suggests-u-s-covid-19-cases-could-be-approaching-100-million

    Hopefully most of the 100 million Americans who have recovered from CV are now immune.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    if they were really so desperate for this vaccine, Pfizer would not have halted their study 10 days prior to the election

    Bzzzt! Pfizer/BioNTech simply stashed samples to RT-PCR test for a while, but this didn’t delay their application for a FDA Emergency Use Authorization(EUA) which happened on the 20th of November.

    They’d previously said, and knew with absolute certainty, they wouldn’t have the required safety data until the 3rd week of November. It’s two months of data from at least one half of the people who got the vaccine in the Phase III trial. Moderna also had sufficient efficacy data for an EUA before enough safety data, remember both of “safe and effective” is required for any level of approval (an EUA is just the beginning in the US).

    and the FDA would have their meeting today instead of next week to determine if they will grant emergency authorization for it.

    You a) no nothing about the FDA and b) you think they just set the application aside then start reading it on the meeting day??? Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I’m typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    @That Would Be Telling


    Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I’m typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.
     
    But surely much of this could have been done before the application, right?

    The genius of Operation Warp Speed was in how it overlapped different phases in the testing and manufacture of vaccines, even if it resulted in lost money and effort if one of the vaccines should fail.

    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like -- going through many aspects of the approval process before it was known whether the vaccine would ultimately succeed? If everything else was done in parallel as much as possible, why not the approval process? What else were they busy doing?

    If this is really the explanation for the delay, it would seem at best to be a case of bureaucratic incompetence.

    Replies: @peterike, @That Would Be Telling

    , @vhrm
    @That Would Be Telling

    > “safe and effective”

    This phrase should be excised from all communication by the FDA and similar since it is used to obfuscate rather than enlighten. Its meaning is "blessed by the FDA" and that's it.

    This is especially true when used in the negative:
    This has not been found to be "safe and effective".

    Safety and effectiveness are separate things and should be specified separately. And they're also not binary variables.

    You seem well informed in this field and have made insightful comments, and the FDA had an inherently tough job providing binary approvals in the face of inherent uncertainty, but you don't need to carry water for all their BS communications.

    And especially not for that shady AF protocol change right before the election.

  35. @Buzz Mohawk
    The UK has one-fifth the population of the US and is smaller than the state of Michigan.

    Looked at another way, it has about as many people as California and Texas combined. Individual states have been making decisions of the same magnitude, and over far, far larger areas, than the UK.

    Then again, if you want top-down, unquestioned authority in really big way, you can always go to China. One hears they really know how to get things done.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    The UK has one-fifth the population of the US and is smaller than the state of Michigan.

    Not really. That 97,000 sq miles that is equivalent to the UK, includes huge chunks of the Great Lakes. It’s not what most of us think of as “Michigan”.

    Wyoming (97k) is about the size of the UK–or the old West Germany. Michigan is about the size of (a bit bigger) than England.

    Not to be a tedious bore here, but i think having a few of these rough US-Europe comparisons aids understanding.

    A few more that i use:

    — France (metropolitan), 210,000 sqmi, is about 80% the size of Texas.

    — European densities aren’t all outside the US norm.
    The high population US states of the industrial midwest–ex. Ohio or Pennsylvania–are close to the density of France. Take 5 Ohios or Pennsylvannias squished together … France. (Minus the better food, slimmer women and smoking.)

    — But the dense parts of Europe are quite dense.
    England is a bit smaller than the size of New York state … with three times the population.
    The Netherlands is akin to two New Jerseys jammed together.

    — Sweden (in the news with the Corona virus)
    We have a commenter who continually blabs about it’s low density. But it’s really a bottom third/quarter that’s populated (with three major metros) more or less like a 10-millionish US midwestern state–Michigan, Ohio–then something sized/populated between Wyoming or Montana jammed on top.

    (Yeah, i like this geography stuff.)

  36. Anonymous[100] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    Why don't you write to the FDA about this? They would be amazed to learn of your groundbreaking scientific findings. I'm sure they haven't considered any of this, or maybe they are in on the conspiracy?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    your sarcasm is so wrong it’s frightening.
    in the first place you can see for yourself they haven’t tested for this. do you think they’ve had pregnancies already among the trial participants? and some of these effects are slow to develop.

    in the second place, the science is unanimous that the vaccine aluminum is highly damaging to kids. the FDA and the CDC don’t have a single empirical paper they can point to saying it’s safe, and there is an extensive literature saying it causes autism and other problems. you’ve never heard that from the CDC and the FDA though. they lie about this kind of stuff routinely.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Anonymous


    the science is unanimous that the vaccine aluminum is highly damaging to kids.
     
    Really, unanimous? I didn't know. Now that I have heard this from Anonymous[100] I will be sure not to get my kids vaccinated.

    Replies: @anonymous

  37. @Jack D
    @anon

    If Russia has only produced 2 million doses then the US is going to pass them in a matter of weeks because we plan to have at least 20 million doses available by year end.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    If Russia has only produced 2 million doses then the US is going to pass them in a matter of weeks because we plan to have at least 20 million doses available by year end.

    My understanding: the mRNA vaccines are just much easier/cheaper to produce. That’s one of the key advantages. Along with targeted, they lend themselves to standardized mass production…. but the mRNA is fragile and ergo the deep refrigeration.

    I’m game. I think the virus has a very low chance of killing me–old guy, but basically zero of these “comorbidities”. But i haven’t yet heard a compelling narrative of why the mRNA should send me tumbling into auto-immune disasterville either.

  38. @That Would Be Telling
    @Travis


    if they were really so desperate for this vaccine, Pfizer would not have halted their study 10 days prior to the election
     
    Bzzzt! Pfizer/BioNTech simply stashed samples to RT-PCR test for a while, but this didn't delay their application for a FDA Emergency Use Authorization(EUA) which happened on the 20th of November.

    They'd previously said, and knew with absolute certainty, they wouldn't have the required safety data until the 3rd week of November. It's two months of data from at least one half of the people who got the vaccine in the Phase III trial. Moderna also had sufficient efficacy data for an EUA before enough safety data, remember both of "safe and effective" is required for any level of approval (an EUA is just the beginning in the US).


    and the FDA would have their meeting today instead of next week to determine if they will grant emergency authorization for it.
     
    You a) no nothing about the FDA and b) you think they just set the application aside then start reading it on the meeting day??? Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I'm typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.

    Replies: @candid_observer, @vhrm

    Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I’m typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.

    But surely much of this could have been done before the application, right?

    The genius of Operation Warp Speed was in how it overlapped different phases in the testing and manufacture of vaccines, even if it resulted in lost money and effort if one of the vaccines should fail.

    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like — going through many aspects of the approval process before it was known whether the vaccine would ultimately succeed? If everything else was done in parallel as much as possible, why not the approval process? What else were they busy doing?

    If this is really the explanation for the delay, it would seem at best to be a case of bureaucratic incompetence.

    • Replies: @peterike
    @candid_observer


    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like... What else were they busy doing?
     
    Fighting systemic racism and white supremacy. Priorities, bro.
    , @That Would Be Telling
    @candid_observer


    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like — going through many aspects of the approval process before it was known whether the vaccine would ultimately succeed?
     
    Absolutely. As I told the guy I was replying to, he knows nothing about the FDA, stuff that was well known in the 1970s when I learned it.

    Also see how they prevented anyone other than CDC from doing tests through the end of February by, among other things, requiring those tests unlike the CDC's to be able to distinguish between SARS-CoV(-1), which died out, MERS-CoV-2, the ME standing for Middle East, it crosses over from camels and there's only been two cases of it in the US ever, and SARS-CoV-2. All of that proof requiring very precious time in BSL-3 labs, of which there aren't a whole lot, and their containment systems make work a lot harder than BSL-2 etc.

    Let me put it this way: it was the first federal agency who's people I would refuse to break bread with, viewing them just a step better than the ᛋᛋ, or later the FBI.
  39. @anon
    Since this is killing 1500 Americans/day, which is the equivalent of 7 Jetliner crashes/day, the US needs to approve immediately. Under OWS, the FDA is getting data as soon as available, they are going to have to make a decision soon.

    Then they can roll out 10 million vaccinations by the end of December and about 1 million/day beginning Jan 1. After 10 million, I will be happy with the testing and ready to queue up.

    Meanwhile, the CDC speculates that their current estimate for actual cases is 8x the reported number, or now 100m million. The current reported cases would then be over 1 million day. And 150 million would set the stage for herd immunity. From WSJ:


    Not only did Covid-19 likely appear in the U.S. earlier than previously known, but researchers have found evidence that the virus is far more widespread in the U.S. than testing indicates.

    Some 53 million people in the U.S. likely had contracted Covid-19 by the end of September, according to a modeling estimate published last week by CDC researchers. Roughly 6.9 million infections had been confirmed within that time period, suggesting that roughly one in every eight cases was identified.

     

    We are set for the Biden miracle. His example of masking and distancing will wrap this bad boy up within a month. One way or another.

    Replies: @peterike

    Since this is killing 1500 Americans/day

    No, 1500 Americans a day are dying and their death is attributed to Covid-19, even if they had nothing but inactive virus RNA in their systems.

    which is the equivalent of 7 Jetliner crashes/day

    Lol! Fear-monger much?

    After 10 million, I will be happy with the testing and ready to queue up.

    So you’re happy to fear monger with a lot of rancid baloney, but when it comes time to put up for what you want to impose on the rest of us, you slink to the back of the line. How noble you are.

    We are set for the Biden miracle. His example of masking and distancing will wrap this bad boy up within a month

    I assume this some kind of badly played joke or sarcasm.

  40. @LondonBob
    The swine flu vaccine passed 4 years of safety trials before it was approved. It still had to be withdrawn.

    https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-damaged-uk-victims-swine-flu-vaccine-get-60-million-compensation-1438572

    An RNA vaccine for something almost completely harmless to me is one I will pass up. The Russian Sputnik vaccine is a more traditional vaccine, a mild or dead version of the virus, and less risky. Given I live in London I expect I would have had the virus already, if I am susceptible. Besides there is every evidence it has mutated in to a milder form already.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @gcochran

    The swine flu vaccine passed 4 years of safety trials before it was approved.

    Citation Needed, but even then, from the fine article:

    It was subsequently revealed that the vaccine, Pandemrix, can cause narcolepsy and cataplexy in about one in 16,000 people

    Guess what you’re not guaranteed to find when your Phase III trial has only 7,400 t0 30,000 people getting the vaccines? That range in subjects is from the lowest and highest numbers I know of for current and planned COVID-19 Phase III trials, Novavax and Janssen.

    What’s important is to figure out how this mistake happened, which I’ve not gotten the impression was not done. Given that it was very possibly created to be the cheapest flu vaccine possible, based on where the side effects were reported and their known drug purchasing policies….

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    Pandemrix (like Thalidomide) was not licensed for use in the United States. I would suggest taking only drugs that are FDA approved regardless of where you live.

    The payout on Pandremix seems to be more of a lawyer's festival than anything driven by science. The CDC concluded that there was no scientific link between Pandremix and narcolepsy, but this doesn't stop the lawyers from suing.

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

    Did you know that talcum powder can give you cancer of the vajayjay? Actually it can't but that hasn't stopped juries from awarding massive prizes in the ghetto lottery either. Burdens of proof and causation in science and the legal system are two completely different things.

    In the US there is a law granting immunity to vaccine makers because if they didn't have this law the vaccine makers would all have been sued out of business long ago. Vaccines are given to millions of children and adults and among those millions,a few per million (which still adds up to hundred or thousands of cases, each one potentially worth millions) them develop some horrible disease or condition (e.g. autism, narcolepsy, etc.) not long after taking the vaccine. This is the kind of thing that makes PI lawyers salivate.

  41. @candid_observer
    @That Would Be Telling


    Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I’m typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.
     
    But surely much of this could have been done before the application, right?

    The genius of Operation Warp Speed was in how it overlapped different phases in the testing and manufacture of vaccines, even if it resulted in lost money and effort if one of the vaccines should fail.

    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like -- going through many aspects of the approval process before it was known whether the vaccine would ultimately succeed? If everything else was done in parallel as much as possible, why not the approval process? What else were they busy doing?

    If this is really the explanation for the delay, it would seem at best to be a case of bureaucratic incompetence.

    Replies: @peterike, @That Would Be Telling

    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like… What else were they busy doing?

    Fighting systemic racism and white supremacy. Priorities, bro.

  42. @LondonBob
    Dr Mike Yeadon also has graves concerns about these vaccines, better qualified than most involved.

    https://twitter.com/MichaelYeadon3/status/1333888419374772225?s=20

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Based on their leading safety complaint about the potential for antibody-dependent amplification, it’s pretty safe to toss their entire petition unless you have domain knowledge about other claims.

    Because this well known problem was believed solved for RSV and then coronaviruses and SARS type coronaviruses well before the SARS-CoV-2 sequence was released on January 10th, and as I understand it, now that we know what it’s all about, it’s pretty easy to test for. Also, it is of a nature that it likely would have been noticed in Phase II trials, which enroll hundreds of people, some of whom are going to get COVID-19 sooner or later. See first this, and then this for the molecular biology details.

    TL;DR: If I know they’re blowing smoke with one part of their demand to halt all COVID-19 vaccine testing—and why the f*** did they wait so long??—why should I pay attention to other claims where I’m not up to speed?

    A better TL;DR, and probably related to the unconscionable delay: this is just virtue signaling, laying down a marker just in case something disastrous happens with one or more of these vaccines.

  43. @That Would Be Telling
    @Travis


    if they were really so desperate for this vaccine, Pfizer would not have halted their study 10 days prior to the election
     
    Bzzzt! Pfizer/BioNTech simply stashed samples to RT-PCR test for a while, but this didn't delay their application for a FDA Emergency Use Authorization(EUA) which happened on the 20th of November.

    They'd previously said, and knew with absolute certainty, they wouldn't have the required safety data until the 3rd week of November. It's two months of data from at least one half of the people who got the vaccine in the Phase III trial. Moderna also had sufficient efficacy data for an EUA before enough safety data, remember both of "safe and effective" is required for any level of approval (an EUA is just the beginning in the US).


    and the FDA would have their meeting today instead of next week to determine if they will grant emergency authorization for it.
     
    You a) no nothing about the FDA and b) you think they just set the application aside then start reading it on the meeting day??? Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I'm typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.

    Replies: @candid_observer, @vhrm

    > “safe and effective”

    This phrase should be excised from all communication by the FDA and similar since it is used to obfuscate rather than enlighten. Its meaning is “blessed by the FDA” and that’s it.

    This is especially true when used in the negative:
    This has not been found to be “safe and effective”.

    Safety and effectiveness are separate things and should be specified separately. And they’re also not binary variables.

    You seem well informed in this field and have made insightful comments, and the FDA had an inherently tough job providing binary approvals in the face of inherent uncertainty, but you don’t need to carry water for all their BS communications.

    And especially not for that shady AF protocol change right before the election.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  44. @candid_observer
    @That Would Be Telling


    Staffers and maybe committee members are poring over the applications, probably this very moment as I’m typing this based on their timezone, a lot of work has to be done before the bottom lines of all factors, including for example their manufacturing plans, can be discussed, weighted, and judged.
     
    But surely much of this could have been done before the application, right?

    The genius of Operation Warp Speed was in how it overlapped different phases in the testing and manufacture of vaccines, even if it resulted in lost money and effort if one of the vaccines should fail.

    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like -- going through many aspects of the approval process before it was known whether the vaccine would ultimately succeed? If everything else was done in parallel as much as possible, why not the approval process? What else were they busy doing?

    If this is really the explanation for the delay, it would seem at best to be a case of bureaucratic incompetence.

    Replies: @peterike, @That Would Be Telling

    Was the FDA incapable of doing the like — going through many aspects of the approval process before it was known whether the vaccine would ultimately succeed?

    Absolutely. As I told the guy I was replying to, he knows nothing about the FDA, stuff that was well known in the 1970s when I learned it.

    Also see how they prevented anyone other than CDC from doing tests through the end of February by, among other things, requiring those tests unlike the CDC’s to be able to distinguish between SARS-CoV(-1), which died out, MERS-CoV-2, the ME standing for Middle East, it crosses over from camels and there’s only been two cases of it in the US ever, and SARS-CoV-2. All of that proof requiring very precious time in BSL-3 labs, of which there aren’t a whole lot, and their containment systems make work a lot harder than BSL-2 etc.

    Let me put it this way: it was the first federal agency who’s people I would refuse to break bread with, viewing them just a step better than the ᛋᛋ, or later the FBI.

  45. @vhrm
    Yes there's a "desperate need" for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK...
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    https://i.postimg.cc/qBSDVRKN/image.png

    Oh the exponentiality!

    Replies: @Sean, @Mark G., @Travis, @HA, @LondonBob

    “Yes there’s a ‘desperate need’ for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK…
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.”

    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown, so any of you Fox Butterfield-fallacists out there who think that this somehow proves that lockdowns and anti-COVID measures (that includes a vaccine) aren’t useful are sorely misguided:

    CNN: Coronavirus cases fell by roughly 30% during England’s lockdown

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @HA


    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown
     
    I know you think your being witty by choosing "coincided" but that's the right word unless you believe in anti-causal effects of lockdowns.

    Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop of the decline especially when you factor in lag time from infection to symptoms of test which are a few days day 3 to 5.

    The lockdown went into effect Nov 5th.

    Note that in most areas daily new cases were already in decline by then. Even for Northern Ireland and Midlands where new cases continued to grow the growth had already slowed by the time the lockdown started. That's not how unmitigated exponential growth, as in the early stages of an infection on simple epidemic models, behaves.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663459.jpg?w=1340


    idk exactly what this zoe graph is or how they calculated people with symptoms, but they also show it peaking well before the Nov 5th lockdown could have affected number of people with symptoms.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663634.jpg?w=1340

    Those from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13323364/coronavirus-cases-plunge-half-peak-levels/

    TBH, I'm a bit surprised by The lack of impact that these lockdowns have. I think some of it is what Steve points out about Swedish cinema: people don't go even without a lockdown. And otoh lots of people still get infected even during them

    Replies: @vhrm, @Steve Sailer, @HA

    , @Fatmanscoop
    @HA


    “Yes there’s a ‘desperate need’ for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK…
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.”

    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown, so any of you Fox Butterfield-fallacists out there who think that this somehow proves that lockdowns and anti-COVID measures (that includes a vaccine) aren’t useful are sorely misguided:

    CNN: Coronavirus cases fell by roughly 30% during England’s lockdown
     
    The figures are ridiculously innaccurate nonsense... and in any case it is fundamentally unimportant whether cases go up by 2000% or down by 50%, because this virus seems to just give people a runny nose in severe cases. So the whole exercise is an enormously corrupt, blatantly politicised pile of drivel.
  46. @Anonymous
    @Jack D

    your sarcasm is so wrong it's frightening.
    in the first place you can see for yourself they haven't tested for this. do you think they've had pregnancies already among the trial participants? and some of these effects are slow to develop.

    in the second place, the science is unanimous that the vaccine aluminum is highly damaging to kids. the FDA and the CDC don't have a single empirical paper they can point to saying it's safe, and there is an extensive literature saying it causes autism and other problems. you've never heard that from the CDC and the FDA though. they lie about this kind of stuff routinely.

    Replies: @Jack D

    the science is unanimous that the vaccine aluminum is highly damaging to kids.

    Really, unanimous? I didn’t know. Now that I have heard this from Anonymous[100] I will be sure not to get my kids vaccinated.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @Jack D

    Again something you can verify for yourself.

  47. @That Would Be Telling
    @LondonBob


    The swine flu vaccine passed 4 years of safety trials before it was approved.
     
    Citation Needed, but even then, from the fine article:

    It was subsequently revealed that the vaccine, Pandemrix, can cause narcolepsy and cataplexy in about one in 16,000 people
     
    Guess what you're not guaranteed to find when your Phase III trial has only 7,400 t0 30,000 people getting the vaccines? That range in subjects is from the lowest and highest numbers I know of for current and planned COVID-19 Phase III trials, Novavax and Janssen.

    What's important is to figure out how this mistake happened, which I've not gotten the impression was not done. Given that it was very possibly created to be the cheapest flu vaccine possible, based on where the side effects were reported and their known drug purchasing policies....

    Replies: @Jack D

    Pandemrix (like Thalidomide) was not licensed for use in the United States. I would suggest taking only drugs that are FDA approved regardless of where you live.

    The payout on Pandremix seems to be more of a lawyer’s festival than anything driven by science. The CDC concluded that there was no scientific link between Pandremix and narcolepsy, but this doesn’t stop the lawyers from suing.

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

    Did you know that talcum powder can give you cancer of the vajayjay? Actually it can’t but that hasn’t stopped juries from awarding massive prizes in the ghetto lottery either. Burdens of proof and causation in science and the legal system are two completely different things.

    In the US there is a law granting immunity to vaccine makers because if they didn’t have this law the vaccine makers would all have been sued out of business long ago. Vaccines are given to millions of children and adults and among those millions,a few per million (which still adds up to hundred or thousands of cases, each one potentially worth millions) them develop some horrible disease or condition (e.g. autism, narcolepsy, etc.) not long after taking the vaccine. This is the kind of thing that makes PI lawyers salivate.

  48. @Sean
    @vhrm

    A second lockdown in England has only ended today.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Anonymous

    There is the old joke of the guy with this ugly looking object in his front yard that bothers the neighbors. One of the neighbors gets the courage to ask, “Hey Larry, what is with that odd looking thing in your front yard? All the neighbors are wondering.”

    “It’s to scare away the elephants that they don’t trample my flower beds.”

    “Larry, be serious for a moment. There are no elephants in this neighborhood.”

    “See, it is working!”

    Not claiming that lockdowns, masks, etc are to scare the elephants, but it is hard to tell sometimes if the elephants were scared off or if after a while, they leave on their own.

  49. @anon
    From WSJ:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said that large-scale vaccinations against Covid-19 with Russia's homegrown jab could begin by the end of next week, as the virus spread in the country shows few signs of abating.

    Mr. Putin said on Wednesday that Russia would soon produce two million doses of the Sputnik V vaccine, which was approved in August after a fast-tracked process. Data from clinical trials released last month showed it was 91.4% effective in protecting people from Covid-19.

    "This gives us the opportunity to start, if not mass, then at least large-scale vaccination," Mr. Putin said at a government meeting, adding that the rollout would begin with high-risk groups such as doctors and teachers.
     

    So if the US dawdles with the approval, they will have some splaining to do.

    Replies: @Jack D, @That Would Be Telling

    From WSJ:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said that large-scale vaccinations against Covid-19 with Russia’s homegrown jab could begin by the end of next week….

    So if the US dawdles with the approval, they will have some splaining to do.

    As much as I love your your reference, the US does not have to at the level of Lucille Ball on the stage. Because if the companies and Trump had declared victory as soon as they had early results from Phase II trials, we’d already have vaccinated tens of millions of people with vaccines who’s safety and efficacy (sorry, ) have not been even vaguely proven for real.

    Russia/Putin and their Sputnik V vaccine approval announcement and boasting got so much criticism, and more and more I see well deserved because it fooled so many people including you, because they did it one month before the started their Phase III trial (the latter September 10th). And having made it such a political football they’re staking a lot of prestige on, you’re invited to imagine the probability of any bad news coming out of their Phase III trial. We’ll have to wait until it’s widely used outside of Russia etc.’s ability to censor.

    All that said, in theory it should be a very good vaccine. But like all the other viral vector ones, it took longer to create candidates for testing than the mRNA ones, and maybe longer in the very earliest of testing. Also, I don’t know if they use the tweak developed in the US to stabilize the spike protein and avoid antibody-dependent enhancement; BioNTech in Germany, and Moderna and Janssen in the US have, and I’ve read from an unreliable source Oxford didn’t.

  50. @HA
    @vhrm

    "Yes there’s a 'desperate need' for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK…
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now."

    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England's second lockdown, so any of you Fox Butterfield-fallacists out there who think that this somehow proves that lockdowns and anti-COVID measures (that includes a vaccine) aren't useful are sorely misguided:

    CNN: Coronavirus cases fell by roughly 30% during England's lockdown

    Replies: @vhrm, @Fatmanscoop

    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown

    I know you think your being witty by choosing “coincided” but that’s the right word unless you believe in anti-causal effects of lockdowns.

    Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop of the decline especially when you factor in lag time from infection to symptoms of test which are a few days day 3 to 5.

    The lockdown went into effect Nov 5th.

    Note that in most areas daily new cases were already in decline by then. Even for Northern Ireland and Midlands where new cases continued to grow the growth had already slowed by the time the lockdown started. That’s not how unmitigated exponential growth, as in the early stages of an infection on simple epidemic models, behaves.

    idk exactly what this zoe graph is or how they calculated people with symptoms, but they also show it peaking well before the Nov 5th lockdown could have affected number of people with symptoms.
    Those from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13323364/coronavirus-cases-plunge-half-peak-levels/

    TBH, I’m a bit surprised by The lack of impact that these lockdowns have. I think some of it is what Steve points out about Swedish cinema: people don’t go even without a lockdown. And otoh lots of people still get infected even during them

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @vhrm

    I botched some editing and things in that post but i hope the sense was clear overall.

    > "Northern Ireland and Midlands"

    I misread that colors there: should be Midlands and South East (and "East of England")

    > "the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop of the decline especially when you factor in lag time from infection to symptoms of test which are a few days day 3 to 5."

    The lockdowns started after the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop in increase or of the start of the decline especially when you factor in the lag time from infection to symptoms or positive test which are around 3 to 5 days.

    Also those two graphs are both of the same data, i believe; the bottom one is just the aggregated form of the top one.

    The ongoing data: https://covid.joinzoe.com/data

    I still haven't fully digested who these people are or how they're doing things (it's something with a health monitoring app and also antibody testing and AI and they're working with the King's College London and Mass General Hospital. https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/new-ai-diagnostic-can-predict-covid-19-without-testing )

    But the data appears reasonably aligned, time wise, with other methods so the overall point I'm making stands.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @vhrm

    It's almost as if people tend to choose to hunker down when the case counts are soaring, whether or not the government orders them to ...

    , @HA
    @vhrm

    "Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks..."

    And as noted by the moderator, they also started after repeated earlier stories that the case were growing at an alarming rate.

    To put some context on that, note that the government ANNOUNCED the lockdown on Oct 31.

    The day before that was a CALL for a lockdown.

    The day before that was an announcement that according to the latest research, Covid has hit 'critical' stage in England.

    And so on. You can continue the paper trail on your own, but as has been noted here numerous times (see the discussions on Sweden, for example), not every loon on the planet considers COVID as nothing but a Democratic Party conspiracy to oust Trump and torment them in particular. Some people in other countries (and even this one) actually listen to what the media tells them -- you know, the dire warnings so many here have noted -- and take precautions accordingly.

    Right now, you're almost at the level of those who were arguing -- with straight faces, no doubt -- that lockdowns were actually causing the death surges. You really ought to step away from that brink, though at this point, I'm guessing that digging yourself in deeper is more your style.

    Replies: @vhrm

  51. @JohnnyWalker123
    This is so awesome. Listen to the video below. This kid James O'Keefe was recording CNN's calls. He interrupts CNN Jeff Zucker on a conference call.

    https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1333800270728294401

    https://twitter.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1333774463935111173

    Hahaha. I love this.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @AndrewR, @Muggles

    Word is, CNN is up for sale.

    Could be changes in the wind with that.

  52. @vhrm
    @HA


    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown
     
    I know you think your being witty by choosing "coincided" but that's the right word unless you believe in anti-causal effects of lockdowns.

    Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop of the decline especially when you factor in lag time from infection to symptoms of test which are a few days day 3 to 5.

    The lockdown went into effect Nov 5th.

    Note that in most areas daily new cases were already in decline by then. Even for Northern Ireland and Midlands where new cases continued to grow the growth had already slowed by the time the lockdown started. That's not how unmitigated exponential growth, as in the early stages of an infection on simple epidemic models, behaves.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663459.jpg?w=1340


    idk exactly what this zoe graph is or how they calculated people with symptoms, but they also show it peaking well before the Nov 5th lockdown could have affected number of people with symptoms.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663634.jpg?w=1340

    Those from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13323364/coronavirus-cases-plunge-half-peak-levels/

    TBH, I'm a bit surprised by The lack of impact that these lockdowns have. I think some of it is what Steve points out about Swedish cinema: people don't go even without a lockdown. And otoh lots of people still get infected even during them

    Replies: @vhrm, @Steve Sailer, @HA

    I botched some editing and things in that post but i hope the sense was clear overall.

    > “Northern Ireland and Midlands”

    I misread that colors there: should be Midlands and South East (and “East of England”)

    > “the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop of the decline especially when you factor in lag time from infection to symptoms of test which are a few days day 3 to 5.”

    The lockdowns started after the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop in increase or of the start of the decline especially when you factor in the lag time from infection to symptoms or positive test which are around 3 to 5 days.

    Also those two graphs are both of the same data, i believe; the bottom one is just the aggregated form of the top one.

    The ongoing data: https://covid.joinzoe.com/data

    I still haven’t fully digested who these people are or how they’re doing things (it’s something with a health monitoring app and also antibody testing and AI and they’re working with the King’s College London and Mass General Hospital. https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/new-ai-diagnostic-can-predict-covid-19-without-testing )

    But the data appears reasonably aligned, time wise, with other methods so the overall point I’m making stands.

  53. @Another German Reader
    Congratulations to the British people! I hope the Mark of the Beast fits you well!

    Do British readers and commenters here actually have a license?

    Replies: @thud

    Pardon?

  54. @Fred Flintstone
    Who's going to replace the UK healthcare workers after they die from the vaccine?

    Replies: @thud

    They are going to die?….you should let people know.

  55. @vhrm
    @HA


    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown
     
    I know you think your being witty by choosing "coincided" but that's the right word unless you believe in anti-causal effects of lockdowns.

    Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop of the decline especially when you factor in lag time from infection to symptoms of test which are a few days day 3 to 5.

    The lockdown went into effect Nov 5th.

    Note that in most areas daily new cases were already in decline by then. Even for Northern Ireland and Midlands where new cases continued to grow the growth had already slowed by the time the lockdown started. That's not how unmitigated exponential growth, as in the early stages of an infection on simple epidemic models, behaves.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663459.jpg?w=1340


    idk exactly what this zoe graph is or how they calculated people with symptoms, but they also show it peaking well before the Nov 5th lockdown could have affected number of people with symptoms.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663634.jpg?w=1340

    Those from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13323364/coronavirus-cases-plunge-half-peak-levels/

    TBH, I'm a bit surprised by The lack of impact that these lockdowns have. I think some of it is what Steve points out about Swedish cinema: people don't go even without a lockdown. And otoh lots of people still get infected even during them

    Replies: @vhrm, @Steve Sailer, @HA

    It’s almost as if people tend to choose to hunker down when the case counts are soaring, whether or not the government orders them to …

    • Agree: HA
  56. I’m curious why the FDA is waiting until December 10th for the emergency approval. Why extend the drama? unless an asteroid hits, there going to approve it.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @George Taylor


    I’m curious why the FDA is waiting until December 10th for the emergency approval.
     
    Taking only twenty days is truly Warp Speed for the FDA, assuming part of the plan is to definitely approve or not on the 10th; they can always ask for more data....

    Why extend the drama? unless an asteroid hits, there going to approve it.
     
    Like many others in this particular discussion, you don't know the FDA. Although I'll agree that unless there's a real goof they find, it's very unlikely they'll deny the EUA application, in this context there will be too much pressure on them to do it without good and real cause. Plus it's only an Emergency Use Authorization, albeit one that will affect tens of millions instead of, say, tens of thousands.
  57. @George Taylor
    I'm curious why the FDA is waiting until December 10th for the emergency approval. Why extend the drama? unless an asteroid hits, there going to approve it.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I’m curious why the FDA is waiting until December 10th for the emergency approval.

    Taking only twenty days is truly Warp Speed for the FDA, assuming part of the plan is to definitely approve or not on the 10th; they can always ask for more data….

    Why extend the drama? unless an asteroid hits, there going to approve it.

    Like many others in this particular discussion, you don’t know the FDA. Although I’ll agree that unless there’s a real goof they find, it’s very unlikely they’ll deny the EUA application, in this context there will be too much pressure on them to do it without good and real cause. Plus it’s only an Emergency Use Authorization, albeit one that will affect tens of millions instead of, say, tens of thousands.

  58. @Jack D
    @Anonymous


    the science is unanimous that the vaccine aluminum is highly damaging to kids.
     
    Really, unanimous? I didn't know. Now that I have heard this from Anonymous[100] I will be sure not to get my kids vaccinated.

    Replies: @anonymous

    Again something you can verify for yourself.

  59. @vhrm
    @HA


    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown
     
    I know you think your being witty by choosing "coincided" but that's the right word unless you believe in anti-causal effects of lockdowns.

    Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks and therefore are not the cause of the stop of the decline especially when you factor in lag time from infection to symptoms of test which are a few days day 3 to 5.

    The lockdown went into effect Nov 5th.

    Note that in most areas daily new cases were already in decline by then. Even for Northern Ireland and Midlands where new cases continued to grow the growth had already slowed by the time the lockdown started. That's not how unmitigated exponential growth, as in the early stages of an infection on simple epidemic models, behaves.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663459.jpg?w=1340


    idk exactly what this zoe graph is or how they calculated people with symptoms, but they also show it peaking well before the Nov 5th lockdown could have affected number of people with symptoms.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/NINTCHDBPICT000622663634.jpg?w=1340

    Those from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13323364/coronavirus-cases-plunge-half-peak-levels/

    TBH, I'm a bit surprised by The lack of impact that these lockdowns have. I think some of it is what Steve points out about Swedish cinema: people don't go even without a lockdown. And otoh lots of people still get infected even during them

    Replies: @vhrm, @Steve Sailer, @HA

    “Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks…”

    And as noted by the moderator, they also started after repeated earlier stories that the case were growing at an alarming rate.

    To put some context on that, note that the government ANNOUNCED the lockdown on Oct 31.

    The day before that was a CALL for a lockdown.

    The day before that was an announcement that according to the latest research, Covid has hit ‘critical’ stage in England.

    And so on. You can continue the paper trail on your own, but as has been noted here numerous times (see the discussions on Sweden, for example), not every loon on the planet considers COVID as nothing but a Democratic Party conspiracy to oust Trump and torment them in particular. Some people in other countries (and even this one) actually listen to what the media tells them — you know, the dire warnings so many here have noted — and take precautions accordingly.

    Right now, you’re almost at the level of those who were arguing — with straight faces, no doubt — that lockdowns were actually causing the death surges. You really ought to step away from that brink, though at this point, I’m guessing that digging yourself in deeper is more your style.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @HA

    There is a very large difference between the government suggesting something and imposing it.

    People acting in their enlightened self-interest as they see it with regard to Covid is ok. That's what a free society is supposed to be. For example I would certainly not choose to go to a nightclub, crowded bar, packed mall or restaurant right now and i'm not in a particularly high risk environment.

    However, the mandated restrictions, especially the closing of schools and churches, not allowing people to visit the sick and elderly and the limits on personal movement and gathering and on businesses are as un-American as near anything I can think of. Normally when governments do these things we call them "crimes against humanity" and a "humanitarian disaster".

    Instead now people are cheering it and asking for more.

    But the main point is that the lockdowns are both unnecessary and ineffective.
    Unnecessary because, whether by people's and businesses' individual choices or by self limiting nature of the epidemic spread as it exhausts vulnerable people in a locality or a combination of the these things the exponential growth has slowed down before the lockdowns went into effect.

    Ineffective because, they don't have a marked impact in slowing the spread. There's nothing in those graphs (or the graphs from previous ones) to show the shutdown having a marked different. You could argue that this is because they're too lenient and not enforced and that they WOULD work if they were done Wuhan style. Quite possible...

    Right now we have something that's about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.

    Replies: @Mark G., @That Would Be Telling, @HA

  60. @MalePaleStale
    OT: Kinda. Do we have a final conclusion on the use of Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, and Zinc? There has been little news on it, and I thought it was found useless when Trump didn't attribute it for his recovery from Covid 19. Then I saw this which pretty much states that HCQ and Zinc are an effective tool against the virus.
    https://hcqmeta.com/
    And this.
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/study-finds-84-fewer-hospitalizations-for-patients-treated-with-controversial-drug-hydroxychloroquine

    There are many smart people on this site. What say you?

    Replies: @Dago Shoes, @LondonBob

    There were doctors championing the chloroquine/zpack/zinc cocktail very early on — about February, as I recall. About 10 weeks ago, more than 1,500 physicians who have used this cocktail tried to publicize their results in a sort of video conference — but Twitter censored it out of existence. These doctors had treated well over 100,000 patients successfully … but we’re not allowed to hear what goes against the agenda.

    Fauci likely hasn’t treated a patient since medical school and/or his internship … he’s been a career federal government bureaucrat his entire post-school life. He’s the gatekeeper for billion$ of federal dollar$ every year for ‘research’ by big pharma and big education … and his ‘success’ record — going back to 1980 when he warned the US that 20-25% of the heterosexual population would die of aids — is anything but inspiring.

    • Thanks: Mark G.
  61. @HA
    @vhrm

    "Yes there’s a 'desperate need' for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK…
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now."

    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England's second lockdown, so any of you Fox Butterfield-fallacists out there who think that this somehow proves that lockdowns and anti-COVID measures (that includes a vaccine) aren't useful are sorely misguided:

    CNN: Coronavirus cases fell by roughly 30% during England's lockdown

    Replies: @vhrm, @Fatmanscoop

    “Yes there’s a ‘desperate need’ for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK…
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.”

    As Sean noted, this drop just so happened to coincide with England’s second lockdown, so any of you Fox Butterfield-fallacists out there who think that this somehow proves that lockdowns and anti-COVID measures (that includes a vaccine) aren’t useful are sorely misguided:

    CNN: Coronavirus cases fell by roughly 30% during England’s lockdown

    The figures are ridiculously innaccurate nonsense… and in any case it is fundamentally unimportant whether cases go up by 2000% or down by 50%, because this virus seems to just give people a runny nose in severe cases. So the whole exercise is an enormously corrupt, blatantly politicised pile of drivel.

  62. @Sean
    @vhrm

    A second lockdown in England has only ended today.

    Replies: @Inquiring Mind, @Anonymous

    Black cUK down

  63. @LondonBob
    The swine flu vaccine passed 4 years of safety trials before it was approved. It still had to be withdrawn.

    https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brain-damaged-uk-victims-swine-flu-vaccine-get-60-million-compensation-1438572

    An RNA vaccine for something almost completely harmless to me is one I will pass up. The Russian Sputnik vaccine is a more traditional vaccine, a mild or dead version of the virus, and less risky. Given I live in London I expect I would have had the virus already, if I am susceptible. Besides there is every evidence it has mutated in to a milder form already.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @gcochran

    It’s less risky, you are susceptible if you haven’t had it, and there’s no evidence it has become milder.

  64. @HA
    @vhrm

    "Just as was the case with the California lockdowns in March, the lockdowns started AFTER the peaks..."

    And as noted by the moderator, they also started after repeated earlier stories that the case were growing at an alarming rate.

    To put some context on that, note that the government ANNOUNCED the lockdown on Oct 31.

    The day before that was a CALL for a lockdown.

    The day before that was an announcement that according to the latest research, Covid has hit 'critical' stage in England.

    And so on. You can continue the paper trail on your own, but as has been noted here numerous times (see the discussions on Sweden, for example), not every loon on the planet considers COVID as nothing but a Democratic Party conspiracy to oust Trump and torment them in particular. Some people in other countries (and even this one) actually listen to what the media tells them -- you know, the dire warnings so many here have noted -- and take precautions accordingly.

    Right now, you're almost at the level of those who were arguing -- with straight faces, no doubt -- that lockdowns were actually causing the death surges. You really ought to step away from that brink, though at this point, I'm guessing that digging yourself in deeper is more your style.

    Replies: @vhrm

    There is a very large difference between the government suggesting something and imposing it.

    People acting in their enlightened self-interest as they see it with regard to Covid is ok. That’s what a free society is supposed to be. For example I would certainly not choose to go to a nightclub, crowded bar, packed mall or restaurant right now and i’m not in a particularly high risk environment.

    However, the mandated restrictions, especially the closing of schools and churches, not allowing people to visit the sick and elderly and the limits on personal movement and gathering and on businesses are as un-American as near anything I can think of. Normally when governments do these things we call them “crimes against humanity” and a “humanitarian disaster”.

    Instead now people are cheering it and asking for more.

    But the main point is that the lockdowns are both unnecessary and ineffective.
    Unnecessary because, whether by people’s and businesses’ individual choices or by self limiting nature of the epidemic spread as it exhausts vulnerable people in a locality or a combination of the these things the exponential growth has slowed down before the lockdowns went into effect.

    Ineffective because, they don’t have a marked impact in slowing the spread. There’s nothing in those graphs (or the graphs from previous ones) to show the shutdown having a marked different. You could argue that this is because they’re too lenient and not enforced and that they WOULD work if they were done Wuhan style. Quite possible…

    Right now we have something that’s about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Mark G.
    @vhrm

    One of the things that have led political officials into advocating lockdowns is that they do not have the full cost of the lockdowns falling on them. For example, if they close restaurants for a month and many of them go bankrupt then the owners lose all the money and time invested in the business. They bear most of the costs. If the government officials had to make up any private business losses, then they would have to raise taxes or cut government services and government employee pay (including their own). This would make voters unhappy if their taxes were raised or government services cut and make government workers, who also vote, unhappy if they lost their jobs or had their paychecks reduced. Politicians don't want unhappy voters so they would then be more reluctant to institute lockdowns.

    Almost no government officials have lost their jobs from these lockdowns or suffered any disruptions in pay. This includes the government officials deciding whether or not to have the lockdowns. In order to come up with the correct policies, you need to make sure the people who benefit from the policies pay the costs. Many of our problems now come from one group receiving the benefit of a government policy while any costs are shifted over to someone else.

    , @That Would Be Telling
    @vhrm


    Right now we have something that’s about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.
     
    Not sure there's no actual benefits since I'm 100% isolating at home, not really paying attention to this, not that there are very many restrictions in my very Red state part of a Red state, and there could be some like there likely were some for Prohibition. But we're definitely getting the real downsides of Prohibition, small businesses killed like the ancient institution of the tavern was, and our betters, if this is possible, lower our opinions of them by blatantly not following their own diktats. But given that we have our worst ruling class ever, even that's not by any means all bad.

    Although maybe it's a Blue state/Red state thing? All the reports of rule breaking I can remember right now are from politicians in the former, whereas in my Red state and nearby Red or Purple states we aren't seeing that from people in the state governments, or locally in my particularly Red portion of the state....

    Replies: @HA

    , @HA
    @vhrm

    "There is a very large difference between the government suggesting something and imposing it."

    Changing the subject won't help you dig out of that hole. The difference you speak of depends highly on the percentage of loons in the population who think they know more about viruses than a trained epidemiologist, the number of people who would even bother inquiring what the government is suggesting before rushing off to their Hasidic wedding or AirBnB bash or Trump rally or Biden victory celebration, etc. In a place like Sweden (or Maine, or Vermont) where nice things are still possible to some extent -- especially where the government will comp you for the days you spend in self-quarantine -- suggestions might be adequate. Good for them. But we gave up on having nice things a long time ago, and as a result we live in a low-trust society where the number of loons has become too unwieldy for mere suggestions especially given the fact that we're talking about contagious disease and a finite-capacity medical system.

    You're free to spout your libertarian claptrap to anyone who cares to listen. You'll get plenty of agree-button affirmation if that's your goal. But if you want to prove that lockdowns weren't largely responsible for any of those reductions you speak of, you'll have to do a more careful accounting of them than the shoddy and selective effort you've shown us so far.

  65. @vhrm
    Yes there's a "desperate need" for this vaccine to control this epidemic in the UK...
    where daily new cases and hospitalizations have been dropping for 2 weeks and 1 week respectively now.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    https://i.postimg.cc/qBSDVRKN/image.png

    Oh the exponentiality!

    Replies: @Sean, @Mark G., @Travis, @HA, @LondonBob

    The tested positive is still based on highly unreliable PCR tests and the deaths are merely those of people who tested positive, yes from those same highly unreliable tests, who then die within twenty eight days.

  66. @Ben H
    I understand that this is a not only a new vaccine but a new type of vaccine. Doesn't seem like a really good idea for anyone to get the jab, given the potential for long term side effects, unless you are in the segment most at-risk to die "from" COVID. But given this segment is mostly "dying people" I'm not sure what the point is really.

    The whole thing is turning into the most unbelievable farce imaginable. We are still pretending that those "leaked" Chinese cellphone videos of people dropping dead in the street and in the ER or welding shut apartment building doors are real and appropriate steps to take. Would be interesting to know why the billions we spend on electronic spying weren't able to discern these videos were faked (or didn't they).

    In a civilized country the emperor would have his "wicked advisors" who came up with such terrible policies as masks and lockdowns put to the sword.

    Replies: @LondonBob

    I expect the fake videos of people dropping dead in China were from ‘our’ side, so now we have to continue pretending so that the useless, corrupt, lying spooks don’t have to admit they failed again, see ‘The Tailor of Panama’.

  67. @MalePaleStale
    OT: Kinda. Do we have a final conclusion on the use of Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, and Zinc? There has been little news on it, and I thought it was found useless when Trump didn't attribute it for his recovery from Covid 19. Then I saw this which pretty much states that HCQ and Zinc are an effective tool against the virus.
    https://hcqmeta.com/
    And this.
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/study-finds-84-fewer-hospitalizations-for-patients-treated-with-controversial-drug-hydroxychloroquine

    There are many smart people on this site. What say you?

    Replies: @Dago Shoes, @LondonBob

  68. @vhrm
    @HA

    There is a very large difference between the government suggesting something and imposing it.

    People acting in their enlightened self-interest as they see it with regard to Covid is ok. That's what a free society is supposed to be. For example I would certainly not choose to go to a nightclub, crowded bar, packed mall or restaurant right now and i'm not in a particularly high risk environment.

    However, the mandated restrictions, especially the closing of schools and churches, not allowing people to visit the sick and elderly and the limits on personal movement and gathering and on businesses are as un-American as near anything I can think of. Normally when governments do these things we call them "crimes against humanity" and a "humanitarian disaster".

    Instead now people are cheering it and asking for more.

    But the main point is that the lockdowns are both unnecessary and ineffective.
    Unnecessary because, whether by people's and businesses' individual choices or by self limiting nature of the epidemic spread as it exhausts vulnerable people in a locality or a combination of the these things the exponential growth has slowed down before the lockdowns went into effect.

    Ineffective because, they don't have a marked impact in slowing the spread. There's nothing in those graphs (or the graphs from previous ones) to show the shutdown having a marked different. You could argue that this is because they're too lenient and not enforced and that they WOULD work if they were done Wuhan style. Quite possible...

    Right now we have something that's about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.

    Replies: @Mark G., @That Would Be Telling, @HA

    One of the things that have led political officials into advocating lockdowns is that they do not have the full cost of the lockdowns falling on them. For example, if they close restaurants for a month and many of them go bankrupt then the owners lose all the money and time invested in the business. They bear most of the costs. If the government officials had to make up any private business losses, then they would have to raise taxes or cut government services and government employee pay (including their own). This would make voters unhappy if their taxes were raised or government services cut and make government workers, who also vote, unhappy if they lost their jobs or had their paychecks reduced. Politicians don’t want unhappy voters so they would then be more reluctant to institute lockdowns.

    Almost no government officials have lost their jobs from these lockdowns or suffered any disruptions in pay. This includes the government officials deciding whether or not to have the lockdowns. In order to come up with the correct policies, you need to make sure the people who benefit from the policies pay the costs. Many of our problems now come from one group receiving the benefit of a government policy while any costs are shifted over to someone else.

    • Agree: vhrm
  69. @vhrm
    @HA

    There is a very large difference between the government suggesting something and imposing it.

    People acting in their enlightened self-interest as they see it with regard to Covid is ok. That's what a free society is supposed to be. For example I would certainly not choose to go to a nightclub, crowded bar, packed mall or restaurant right now and i'm not in a particularly high risk environment.

    However, the mandated restrictions, especially the closing of schools and churches, not allowing people to visit the sick and elderly and the limits on personal movement and gathering and on businesses are as un-American as near anything I can think of. Normally when governments do these things we call them "crimes against humanity" and a "humanitarian disaster".

    Instead now people are cheering it and asking for more.

    But the main point is that the lockdowns are both unnecessary and ineffective.
    Unnecessary because, whether by people's and businesses' individual choices or by self limiting nature of the epidemic spread as it exhausts vulnerable people in a locality or a combination of the these things the exponential growth has slowed down before the lockdowns went into effect.

    Ineffective because, they don't have a marked impact in slowing the spread. There's nothing in those graphs (or the graphs from previous ones) to show the shutdown having a marked different. You could argue that this is because they're too lenient and not enforced and that they WOULD work if they were done Wuhan style. Quite possible...

    Right now we have something that's about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.

    Replies: @Mark G., @That Would Be Telling, @HA

    Right now we have something that’s about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.

    Not sure there’s no actual benefits since I’m 100% isolating at home, not really paying attention to this, not that there are very many restrictions in my very Red state part of a Red state, and there could be some like there likely were some for Prohibition. But we’re definitely getting the real downsides of Prohibition, small businesses killed like the ancient institution of the tavern was, and our betters, if this is possible, lower our opinions of them by blatantly not following their own diktats. But given that we have our worst ruling class ever, even that’s not by any means all bad.

    Although maybe it’s a Blue state/Red state thing? All the reports of rule breaking I can remember right now are from politicians in the former, whereas in my Red state and nearby Red or Purple states we aren’t seeing that from people in the state governments, or locally in my particularly Red portion of the state….

    • Replies: @HA
    @That Would Be Telling



    ...All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.
     

    Not sure there’s no actual benefits...
     

    Kudos to you -- you were somehow able to make it past the sentence where COVID lockdowns supposedly have "All the downsides of a police state...". That's more fortitude than I can muster.

    Yeah, all the downsides of a police state...as if the ghosts of the victims of Pol Pot or the Tonton Macoute or the gulags or any number of other police states are so grateful that their earthly incarnations were snuffed out before having to endure what the COVID generation, the real MVP's of victimhood, are going through right now.

    And remember, it's people like this who want to claim that everyone else has become hysterical.

  70. @vhrm
    @HA

    There is a very large difference between the government suggesting something and imposing it.

    People acting in their enlightened self-interest as they see it with regard to Covid is ok. That's what a free society is supposed to be. For example I would certainly not choose to go to a nightclub, crowded bar, packed mall or restaurant right now and i'm not in a particularly high risk environment.

    However, the mandated restrictions, especially the closing of schools and churches, not allowing people to visit the sick and elderly and the limits on personal movement and gathering and on businesses are as un-American as near anything I can think of. Normally when governments do these things we call them "crimes against humanity" and a "humanitarian disaster".

    Instead now people are cheering it and asking for more.

    But the main point is that the lockdowns are both unnecessary and ineffective.
    Unnecessary because, whether by people's and businesses' individual choices or by self limiting nature of the epidemic spread as it exhausts vulnerable people in a locality or a combination of the these things the exponential growth has slowed down before the lockdowns went into effect.

    Ineffective because, they don't have a marked impact in slowing the spread. There's nothing in those graphs (or the graphs from previous ones) to show the shutdown having a marked different. You could argue that this is because they're too lenient and not enforced and that they WOULD work if they were done Wuhan style. Quite possible...

    Right now we have something that's about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.

    Replies: @Mark G., @That Would Be Telling, @HA

    “There is a very large difference between the government suggesting something and imposing it.”

    Changing the subject won’t help you dig out of that hole. The difference you speak of depends highly on the percentage of loons in the population who think they know more about viruses than a trained epidemiologist, the number of people who would even bother inquiring what the government is suggesting before rushing off to their Hasidic wedding or AirBnB bash or Trump rally or Biden victory celebration, etc. In a place like Sweden (or Maine, or Vermont) where nice things are still possible to some extent — especially where the government will comp you for the days you spend in self-quarantine — suggestions might be adequate. Good for them. But we gave up on having nice things a long time ago, and as a result we live in a low-trust society where the number of loons has become too unwieldy for mere suggestions especially given the fact that we’re talking about contagious disease and a finite-capacity medical system.

    You’re free to spout your libertarian claptrap to anyone who cares to listen. You’ll get plenty of agree-button affirmation if that’s your goal. But if you want to prove that lockdowns weren’t largely responsible for any of those reductions you speak of, you’ll have to do a more careful accounting of them than the shoddy and selective effort you’ve shown us so far.

  71. @That Would Be Telling
    @vhrm


    Right now we have something that’s about as effective as alcohol prohibition, the War on Drugs, and civil asset forfeiture: All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.
     
    Not sure there's no actual benefits since I'm 100% isolating at home, not really paying attention to this, not that there are very many restrictions in my very Red state part of a Red state, and there could be some like there likely were some for Prohibition. But we're definitely getting the real downsides of Prohibition, small businesses killed like the ancient institution of the tavern was, and our betters, if this is possible, lower our opinions of them by blatantly not following their own diktats. But given that we have our worst ruling class ever, even that's not by any means all bad.

    Although maybe it's a Blue state/Red state thing? All the reports of rule breaking I can remember right now are from politicians in the former, whereas in my Red state and nearby Red or Purple states we aren't seeing that from people in the state governments, or locally in my particularly Red portion of the state....

    Replies: @HA

    …All the downsides of a police state with no actual benefits to show for it.

    Not sure there’s no actual benefits…

    Kudos to you — you were somehow able to make it past the sentence where COVID lockdowns supposedly have “All the downsides of a police state…”. That’s more fortitude than I can muster.

    Yeah, all the downsides of a police state…as if the ghosts of the victims of Pol Pot or the Tonton Macoute or the gulags or any number of other police states are so grateful that their earthly incarnations were snuffed out before having to endure what the COVID generation, the real MVP’s of victimhood, are going through right now.

    And remember, it’s people like this who want to claim that everyone else has become hysterical.

  72. @Jack D
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    What is the expose' going to be? That they are Democrat shills? All you need to do it watch any program on CNN for 5 minutes (about my limit) to know that. They stopped pretending that they were non-partisan years ago.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Johann Ricke, @Jonathan Mason

    CNN is pro Democrat and FOX pro Republican. Neither is much use for objective information about US politics, but their affiliations are hardly a secret. They are okay for sports and weather news.

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