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Awhile ago, in explaining the real reasons behind Newsweek’s cover story about how the Ogden metropolitan statistical area in exurban Salt Lake City has the least inequality in the country, I pointed out that Ogden was second to Provo, Utah in having the biggest gender gap in wages in the country. Now Bloomberg has a story on how the Utah social model of affordable family formation is succeeding and, therefore, must be torn down in the name of higher corporate profits feminism:

Why Utah Can’t Afford To Keep Its 1970s Gender Gaps
Laura Colby
October 13, 2015

Utah is `two generations’ behind U.S. in women’s metrics

Zions CEO knows ‘overweight, balding’ bank is bad for business

Linda Wardell hasn’t forgotten her first Salt Lake City meeting with local business partners five years ago. Fifty men. One woman.
“I realized that maybe they’d never had a woman in the room before,” the Atlanta native says in her soft drawl about representatives from the real-estate-development arm of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, commonly known as the Mormon church. “Some of them were looking a little uncomfortable.”

Today, as general manager of City Creek Center, an 800,000-square foot expanse of flowing brooks and rose-colored brick whose wares include True Religion Jeans and the Book of Mormon, Wardell is still often the lone woman in meetings.

Except now she’s also part of a pack of mostly female executives, and some men, determined to drag the state’s workplaces out of the 1970s.

In many respects, Utah, whose state symbol is a beehive, is a model of industriousness for the rest of the nation. Its economy is among the fastest growing and its unemployment rate is the sixth lowest.

So many technology companies — including Google Inc., EBay Inc. and Adobe Systems Inc. — have clustered in Salt Lake, Ogden and Provo that the area’s been dubbed Silicon Slopes. Part of the attraction is a workforce with Mormons who learned languages and entrepreneurial skills during missions abroad, according to Mark Muro, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. Throw in accommodating taxes, a top university and the state’s natural beauty, and Utah may be the ideal business destination.

But it’s a different story if you’re a working woman.

Women often find their aspirations stifled by what many in Salt Lake delicately refer to as “the culture.” The Mormon church lays out a division of labor “by divine design” — men are providers; women are nurturers. Once children arrive, mothers tend to quit school or work.

Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers. Though the state has the highest U.S. birth rate, it ranks 48th for affordability and availability of child care, according to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research in Washington. Paid maternity leave is rare.

Women also are less represented on campuses, with Utah one of the few states where male students still outnumber female. Graduation rates at public institutions run almost 10 percentage points below the national average for women. All this leads to a grim gender wage gap: Working Utah women collect 70 cents for every dollar paid to men, again 48th in the country.

“By every major metric, we’re about two generations behind the nation,” says Pamela Perlich, a demographer at the University of Utah.

But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed. Former Democratic state legislator Patricia Jones has taken up the cause through the newly created Women’s Leadership Institute. The silver-haired 65-year-old with the red Lexus sports car got a boost out of the starting gates from a New York Post article that lumped Utah with Saudi Arabia and Indonesia as places where “sexism reaches into the highest echelons of government.”

“It was really an affront to people here,” says Jones, who grew up in a non-practicing Mormon home with a working mother.

She used the resulting embarrassment to help enlist what she calls “men of influence,” recruiting public officeholders such as Salt Lake County’s mayor, Democrat Ben McAdams, and the state’s Lieutenant Governor, Republican Spencer Cox. The pair — both boyish looking 40-year-olds — appeared in a corny video promoting women’s leadership while riding a bicycle built for two past the state capitol.

So far, 64 organizations have signed on, from national businesses with local offices such as American Express Co. to Utah-based companies including natural-gas giant Questar Corp. and Zions Bancorporation, an institution with $58 billion in assets and operations throughout the Western U.S.

Who could have imagined that corporations would unite to demand a larger supply of labor?

Among her most avid men of influence is Scott Anderson, chief executive officer of the Zions First National Bank subsidiary, which traces its roots back to 1873 and Mormon leader Brigham Young. Anderson — a 68-year-old descendant of the pioneers who entered Salt Lake Valley on July 24, 1847 — began promoting a more robust role for women after retaining a firm Jones ran to conduct market research more than a decade ago. Customers were asked to describe what Zions would look like if it were a person.

“They said, ‘You’re an overweight, balding, middle-aged man,’” he recalls, arching his eyebrows in dismay.

Disturbed at their perception, Anderson set about promoting women’s groups, mentoring and training programs, scholarships, flexible working hours and the like. …


“It just makes good business sense,” says the soft-spoken executive, whose tall, slender build and earnest manner evoke actor James Stewart.

I.e., The CEO is not one of those repulsive overweight, balding, work-a-daddies whose salaries he can cut if this elite push to get more women into the workforce succeeds.

“You can get a better workforce, a more productive workforce; you can get better decision making done and be more successful in selling your wares.”
Many Utah women still find the long-held assumptions of their church and family daunting to overcome.
“The majority of my friends from high school are home with children,” says 29-year-old executive recruiter Ema Ostarcevic, who was born in Croatia and whose family isn’t Mormon. “I can count on one hand how many aren’t.”

 
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  1. Hopefully these harpies waste their time butting heads against a brick wall while Utah remains the same.

  2. Social Matter has a post that describes this very thing:
    Uncle Sam’s Progressive Pu-Pu Platter
    http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/10/11/uncle-sams-progressive-pu-pu-platter/

    The platter has a fixed set of “choices”, you must accept all that come with it; no substitutions. The essay described the platter as “offered” to nations but this Sailer post describes the platter being rammed down the throat of Utah.

    Key items on the platter, feminism (first and foremost), education (particularly female education), and multiculturalism, particularly the acceptance of “sexual minorities”. The carrot and the stick is loans, credit to elites. If the elites do X then they can get funds Y. If they stop doing X then funds Y will dry up. And the consumption of the items on the platter is regulated, overseen by a bevy of NGO groups ready to scream bloody murder.

    The following passage seems to be quite applicable given the “groups” that our heroine, the professional Pu-Puh platter purveyor, seems to address, the local elites, all with the backing of outside corps that have already “enjoyed” the platter and “hope” to assist others in equally “enjoying” it.

    The pu-pu platter has to benefit the elite of the target nation. There has to be a reason to sell out. This is where the open borders menu item comes into play. Flood the nation with labor to depress wages and generate more income and wealth for the elite. This also reinforces the multikulti item. How else can you weaken national consciousness when you force multiculturalism on 90% homogeneous nations? It is hard work if there are few visible minorities. You need to stuff it with others. The progs are pushing Africans and Pakistanis into South America, as they suck South Americans into America.

    So they have to start somewhere, by destroying the strong family and gender roles of the Mormon community, then true utopia can be had, low birthrate, heterogeneous population, multiculturalism.

  3. anon • Disclaimer says:

    The Mormon church lays out a division of labor “by divine design” — men are providers; women are nurturers. Once children arrive, mothers tend to quit school or work.

    My God, won’t somebody think of the children?!?

    Wait a minute, wait a minute…

    Whatever you do, don’t think of the children! Please don’t think of the children, everybody!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Haha! I must remember that one.
  4. Bunch of white neoliberals and bitter harpies promoting anti-family stupidity,

    What Ema Ostarcevic won’t tell women, the corporate world demands it all from their employees (it’s a meat grinder) and that “meaningful career” is basically a pile of steaming dung that comes at the cost of a young woman’s best years striving to get up the ladder while sacrificing her children just so she can afford a new Lexus and that custom decorated home. If she’s lucky she’ll have a dead marriage where the kids never bonded to mom because she wasn’t there during their formative years. If not she’ll be a bitter old maid at 40 with nothing to look forward except a bottle of Xanax, Jim Beam after work and the occasional boy toy.

    And if you’re lucky and reach retirement age – which most never will, within 5 minutes of retiring everyone will have forgotten about you and your health will be shot from enduring 40 years of bad food and endless stress in a Herman Miller cube farm. Yeah that’s something to look forward to.

    That’s the corporate life for most.

    • Agree: Travis, Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @Blobby5
    Great post, cube livestock unite!
    , @AndrewR
    But ((((Sheryl Sandberg)))) told me that wymyn could Have It All™!
    , @Ttjy

    That’s the corporate life for most.
     
    Most people I know at work can't stand it there and would love to leave. I am not a woman, but if I were I would much rather stay at home with my kids. There is nothing meaningful or satisfying about it for most.

    Also, most women working aren't executives or managers, but just workers who can be laid off at any time.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    I agree that the corporate world is pretty much souless and grinding. Especially if you're on the management track.

    It's not much better if you're a man though. Work has never been fun, except maybe if you're doing something like firefighting, pro sports, music, or acting.
  5. I know it’s said all the time now, but, please, what is the Onion going to do anymore if this is the reality?

    “Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent”

    Let’s see. Can we think of any reason why this might be the case? Are we supposed to understand why this is an ipso/facto terrible thing? Am I troglodyte for now quite seeing it?

    • Agree: Seminumerical
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?

    Back in 1754 in an essay proposing immigration restriction, Benjamin Franklin identified high wages and cheap land as the key to why life in America was better for the average person than in Europe.

    But now we all know that kind of Franklinite thinking is downright un-American.

    , @Steve Sailer
    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?

    Back in 1754 in an essay proposing immigration restriction, Benjamin Franklin identified high wages and cheap land as the key to why life in America was better for the average person than in Europe.

    But now we all know that kind of Franklinite thinking is downright un-American.

  6. Maybe Chaffetz can help Utah get out its Gender gap and be more like SoCal.

    He’s Mormon too!

  7. Change Mormon to Muslim and would the Times be kvetching about some religion keeping the women down?

    There is NO rationale anymore. Designated target – Mormon. Done. 1984 – came a little late. Different vibe. The brainwashing was better than expected.

    • Replies: @eah
    Change Mormon to Muslim and would the Times be kvetching about some religion keeping the women down?

    Oofs! I mean oops! You didn't get the metaphorical memo apparently. You're not supposed to notice things/ask questions like that! What are you trying to do?! Embarrass the NYT by spitting their hypocrisy and bias right back in their collective faces?

    , @Big Bill
    Forget the Islamic world. Forget kooky religions in Utah. What about Orthodox Jews in New York and New Jersey? Bloomberg, as mayor of NYC refused to enforce the educational laws of the city and state. Those laws mandate that all young people receive math, science, English, and history lessons K-12. Yet everyone knows that those laws are not enforced at Jewish schools. Religious Jews want their children to remain uncorrupted by pointless secular knowledge. How else can their women be persuaded to have 6-10 kids each?

    This is common knowledge in New York and New Jersey. Bloomberg knows this. Bloomberg kept providing tax money to these schools. He refused to prosecute the grotesque and commonplace educational and tax fraud that enable this lifestyle to continue.

    Yet Bloomberg now sends his reporter-minions out to a healthy, normal, functioning, non-repressive, non-fraudulent, non-tax-sucking state, over a thousand miles from his own city, the city he ruled for over a decade, to damn Utahns for having healthy, normal goy families.

    If Bloomberg really gave a damn about women making too many babies and not becoming office drones why didn't he, why doesn't he step across his office to his window and look right across the river at his own people?

    Why isn't he "a light unto his OWN nation" if it is so almighty important for women to abort, contracept, and drone their lives away?
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Ooof, nice call. The Koran refers to a man's role as the provider to women.
  8. “The majority of my friends from high school are home with children,” says -year-old executive recruiter Ema Ostarcevic, who was born in Croatia and whose family isn’t Mormon. “I can count on one hand how many aren’t.”

    So what? If these women want to work they can do so. They choose not to.

    These business executives are going to end up messing a good thing in Utah trying to appease these social justice warriors. Kind of like how Wal-Mart is tanking because they raised wages to appease progressives.

    • Replies: @Hubbub
    I imagine the children will show the benefits of having a mother at home, rather than at some job of less importance than rearing your own children.
  9. @asdf
    I know it's said all the time now, but, please, what is the Onion going to do anymore if this is the reality?

    "Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent"

    Let's see. Can we think of any reason why this might be the case? Are we supposed to understand why this is an ipso/facto terrible thing? Am I troglodyte for now quite seeing it?

    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?

    Back in 1754 in an essay proposing immigration restriction, Benjamin Franklin identified high wages and cheap land as the key to why life in America was better for the average person than in Europe.

    But now we all know that kind of Franklinite thinking is downright un-American.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    Sounds like a hell of a campaign platform/slogan

    "High wages! Cheap land! Restrictive immigration!"

    I won't hold my breath for someone to give that a try.

    Donald "I (heart) Kelo v. City of New London" Trump sure ain't the guy.
  10. @asdf
    I know it's said all the time now, but, please, what is the Onion going to do anymore if this is the reality?

    "Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent"

    Let's see. Can we think of any reason why this might be the case? Are we supposed to understand why this is an ipso/facto terrible thing? Am I troglodyte for now quite seeing it?

    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?

    Back in 1754 in an essay proposing immigration restriction, Benjamin Franklin identified high wages and cheap land as the key to why life in America was better for the average person than in Europe.

    But now we all know that kind of Franklinite thinking is downright un-American.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?
     
    I don't think it's just cheap land. There are other places in the U.S. with cheaper land still. Low real estate cost helps, but I think real reasons are that 1) Mormons, especially Mormon women, are very thrifty. Even in high cost areas, Mormon families are renowned for living "on the cheap." And 2) As others have pointed out, Mormons have a strong communal safety net and morality/ideology that encourages family-formation even with low relative income.
  11. Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn’t lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    What large corporations do like though is more people to buy stuff, more consumers. And working women have more disposable income. They’re now being “productive.”

    • Replies: @Spoons
    "Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy"

    Supply and demand curves are an economic fallacy?
    , @Former Darfur
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn’t lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    Bullshit.

    When women with children entered the workforce en masse, the number of consumers stayed about the same, whereas the number of workers increased substantially. True, the two income families could afford "more stuff", but they didn't have the time to enjoy it.

    A lot of service jobs were created, especially lawn care, babysitting, and chain restaurants, most of it low skill, low initiative work.

    Women do do certain jobs better than men, such as electronic assembly, but those are low paying jobs. And there was never a shortage of young or old women to do those jobs anyway. Women are, as a rule, not better than men in terms of corporate leadership.

    Packing certain types of professional schooling with women has in fact been a complete disaster, such as veterinary schools-that's why large animal vets are in serious shortage.

    Women should be allowed to pursue corporate and professional careers at their own level, without affirmative action in any way. Some women do not desire marriage and family, and that's fine: eugenically we aren't losing much from them choosing that. But most want children and families and the traditional dad-breadwinner, mom-homemaker families do that better than any other arrangement.
    , @unpc downunder
    It depends what industries they are in. If they are in wealth creating industries (like manufacturing, farming, research and development) they are expanding the pie. However, if they are involved in wealth re-distrubition industries (like most government jobs and many service sector jobs such as real estate) they are simply redistrubiting existing wealth. Most women are engaged in the later type of work rather than the former.

    Also, even if women are in productive technical jobs, we need them to take time off work to pass on their genes to the next generation.
    , @DWB
    Thursday

    not that you are necessarily wrong, but have you any actual data to back this claim up?

    Adding people to the workforce does not ipso facto result in increased demand for products, which is the raison d'etre for the work, isn't it?

    Try a thought experiment - suppose that there is a population of 1000 men and 1000 women in a city producing automobiles. The work is done exclusively by men. If all of a sudden, every woman entered into the workforce competing for the auto jobs, does that mean that the demand for cars would double? Does that not presume that prior to the entry, no women had cars?

    Of course "the economy" will grow - but will the number of jobs created equal the number of new competitors for them? If the answer is "no," then almost surely wages will go down.

    I've wondered fo many years - and looked for an actual analysis (and been thus far unsuccessful) that examines the impact of the entry of women in the workforce in numbers on wages for the middle class. It may just be a statistical artefact that real wages basically stopped growing (1973) at just about the same time women enetered the work force in large numbers. I would like to see this analysed in a serious way, but I suspect even asking the question is taboo in the current climate.
    , @Mr. Anon
    "Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn’t lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand."

    Is there anything quite as stupid as an economist?
  12. ‘with unemployment of just 3.7 percent…and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed’

    Actually, it sounds like things are pretty good (?) – perhaps Utah *can* afford it!

  13. re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).

    http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Cox-with-Bramall-and-Aldred.jpg

    Man, I need to move to Utah.

    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    I notice she started having kids in her middle 20s and stopped having kids in her middle 30s, and didn't have very many overall.
    , @Twinkie

    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).
     
    Mormons consider their bodies as temples. Many Mormons keep good fitness, and their women tend to stay trim into their old age.

    Man, I need to move to Utah.
     
    Then you better become a Mormon. Although there is no persecution as such, non-Mormons often face unseen barriers to jobs, promotions, business, positions of authority, etc. when competing against Mormons.

    I am very conflicted about Mormons. They are, by and large, very moral people and vote the right way. They make great political allies and, better still, patriotic Americans. And they make fantastic neighbors provided they do not command a majority or a plurality in the community. But their motivations are less than pluralist when they do command such a position as reflected by the monolithic nature of their religious governance, and, of course, there is the matter of their bizarre and heretical doctrines.
  14. Why Utah Can’t Afford To Keep Its 1970s Gender Gaps

    So…what was the answer?

    Its economy is among the fastest growing and its unemployment rate is the sixth lowest. […] But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.

    I don’t follow.

    Women often find their aspirations stifled by what many in Salt Lake delicately refer to as “the culture.”

    “many”

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers. Though the state has the highest U.S. birth rate, it ranks 48th for affordability and availability of child care, according to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research in Washington. Paid maternity leave is rare.

    Women also are less represented on campuses, with Utah one of the few states where male students still outnumber female. Graduation rates at public institutions run almost 10 percentage points below the national average for women. All this leads to a grim gender wage gap: Working Utah women collect 70 cents for every dollar paid to men, again 48th in the country.

    None of which establishes that Utah women aspire to a career, and that such an aspiration is being stiffled.

    Many Utah women still find the long-held assumptions of their church and family daunting to overcome.

    “many”

    “The majority of my friends from high school are home with children,” says 29-year-old executive recruiter Ema Ostarcevic, who was born in Croatia and whose family isn’t Mormon. “I can count on one hand how many aren’t.”

    Maybe they don’t wish to overcome the long-held assumptions of their church and family.

    After five years at City Creek Center, Wardell now plans to make Utah her permanent home. She continues to marvel at the lack of ambition among even the brightest, college-educated female employees at the Salt Lake City outpost of her employer, mall owner and manager Taubman Co. Frustrated at how few imagine themselves moving beyond entry-level jobs, she sets aside time every week for one-on-one mentoring. “They either don’t see their potential or they just have never been taught to believe in themselves,” she says. Still, like Jones, Anderson and other institute backers, she’s confident Utah and its women are primed, finally, to catch up with the rest of the nation.

    They have the wrong aspirations! The long-held assumptions of their church and family must be overcome! (How ambitious are they towards finding a good husband?)

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Harold, sad that some woman don't see raising a family as an ambition. My one daughter ended her career midstream in her early forties and adopted a child. I have never seen her more focused or happy.
  15. @Thursday
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn't lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    What large corporations do like though is more people to buy stuff, more consumers. And working women have more disposable income. They're now being "productive."

    “Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy”

    Supply and demand curves are an economic fallacy?

  16. Blame the Mormons in the crosshairs situation on Mitt Romney.
    He got noticed by the New York media and bad things tend to happen after that.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Blame the Mormons in the crosshairs situation on Mitt Romney.
    He got noticed by the New York media and bad things tend to happen after that.
     
    Romney had little to do with it. Mormons joined the fight for marriage in California, and incurred the wrath of the Rainbow Shirts.
  17. But the most egregious thing about this article is that they think two hyphens make an em dash. Ach mein lookenpeepers! (As they say in Germany.)

  18. OT TNR claims the Democrat debate didn’t talk about race enough:

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/123119/black-lives-mattered-exactly-one-question

    Maybe this is because the moderators know that talking about race is bad for Democrats, I am enjoying blacks finally realizing the liberal white don’t really care about them.

    Also at TNR “Why Do Rich Kids Do Better Than Poor Kids in School? It’s Not the “Word Gap.”:

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/123093/why-do-rich-kids-do-better-poor-kids-school

  19. “Bloomberg has a story on how the Utah social model of affordable family formation is succeeding and, therefore, must be torn down in the name of higher corporate profits feminism”

    Oh dear God. It’s being torn down already. There is absolutely no shortage of women – including married women – in the Utah workforce. Home prices are soaring back out of control and commutes are getting ridiculous.

    “as general manager of City Creek Center…Wardell is still often the lone woman in meetings

    Wardell is a non-Mormon woman working for a Jewish run company (Taubman Centers) managing a mall owned by the Mormon church. Apparently the aged men who run the church were fine with it.

    “Except now she’s also part of a pack of mostly female executives, and some men, determined to drag the state’s workplaces out of the 1970s.”

    Rewrite that: “Except now she’s part of a pack of executives determined to lower Utah’s birthrate to the same far below replacement level rate of fertility seen in so many other states and countries.” – at which point Bloomberg will wonder why Utah fertility rates are below replacement level and explain to us we need to import a million Muslims to cure that.

    “Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent.”

    Somehow that’s a problem. It would be so much better if more young children were sent off to warehouses while their mothers slaved away for $16/hour.

    “Women also are less represented on campuses, with Utah one of the few states where male students still outnumber female.”

    But when women outnumber men by 3 to 2 on every other campus in the country it’s no big deal.

    “Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.”

    Says who? And why can’t it?

    “Anderson…began promoting a more robust role for women after retaining a firm Jones ran to conduct market research more than a decade ago.”

    Anderson is one of the biggest promoters of open borders in the state of Utah. He pushes the cause every chance he gets and his name shows up on every effort to pass amnesty. He is also the kind of business exec who gives to politicians of every ideology and every party, from Harry Reid to Mike Lee, all because it’s his “civic duty” (wink wink). Totally the kind of thing that guy who starred in “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington” – what was his name? – would go along with.

    ““It just makes good business sense,” says the soft-spoken executive, whose tall, slender build and earnest manner evoke actor James Stewart.”

    ROFLMAO.

    You know who else has a tall, slender build and speaks in an earnest, soft-spoken manner that evokes actor Jimmy Stewart? Jeff Sessions

    I’ll leave it to y’all to judge who looks more like Mr. Stewart. I’ll leave it to y’all to ask yourselves whether Bloomberg will ever describe Senator Sessions that way.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    Anderson looks more like Rudy Vallee in How to Get Ahead in Business. Or Edward Herrman.
  20. Does Bloomberg have a comment section? I don’t see that it does anywhere. I guess they’re worried that a comment section will allow readers to call bullshit on them.

    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    They use disqus, but not for every article. Like the NYT, it's instructive to notice where they don't allow comments and where they do.
  21. “Though the state has the highest U.S. birth rate, it ranks 48th for affordability and availability of child care, according to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research in Washington”

    I wonder how they measured this? Did they only look at “official” child care businesses? My sense is that there is a pretty large informal network of child care providers in the state – siblings, grandparents, fellow congregants, etc., who help provide child care but do so in their homes, without advertising and without a business license. We have family members who are able to look after our kids, and lots of others I know do the same.

    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    Yep, the (older) neighbor lady with the big basement where all the kids went for a few hours a couple times a week was another major factor in making domestic life more appealing.

    Many of those pieces are still around, but not like they used to be, and of course the birth rates reflect that. Three is still very expected, but six is not as common as it used to be. I was a little disappointed to find in the demographic data that even Mormons are mostly following the national trends regarding having more than four children.
  22. New Report: Utah is Sixth Least Obese State in the Nation

    46. Utah (23.4%); 47. Hawaii (23.1%); 48. Massachusetts** (22.3%); 49. Connecticut (21.8%); 50. District of Columbia (21.7%); 51. Colorado* (19.8%).

  23. @Steve Sailer
    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?

    Back in 1754 in an essay proposing immigration restriction, Benjamin Franklin identified high wages and cheap land as the key to why life in America was better for the average person than in Europe.

    But now we all know that kind of Franklinite thinking is downright un-American.

    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?

    I don’t think it’s just cheap land. There are other places in the U.S. with cheaper land still. Low real estate cost helps, but I think real reasons are that 1) Mormons, especially Mormon women, are very thrifty. Even in high cost areas, Mormon families are renowned for living “on the cheap.” And 2) As others have pointed out, Mormons have a strong communal safety net and morality/ideology that encourages family-formation even with low relative income.

    • Replies: @Jimi
    Utah is unique for cheap real estate near good job opportunities.

    You can buy good houses in safe neighborhoods within commuting distance to downtown Salt Lake City. Upstate New York also has cheap real estate. But poor job opportunities so no one buys.
  24. @Thursday
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn't lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    What large corporations do like though is more people to buy stuff, more consumers. And working women have more disposable income. They're now being "productive."

    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn’t lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    Bullshit.

    When women with children entered the workforce en masse, the number of consumers stayed about the same, whereas the number of workers increased substantially. True, the two income families could afford “more stuff”, but they didn’t have the time to enjoy it.

    A lot of service jobs were created, especially lawn care, babysitting, and chain restaurants, most of it low skill, low initiative work.

    Women do do certain jobs better than men, such as electronic assembly, but those are low paying jobs. And there was never a shortage of young or old women to do those jobs anyway. Women are, as a rule, not better than men in terms of corporate leadership.

    Packing certain types of professional schooling with women has in fact been a complete disaster, such as veterinary schools-that’s why large animal vets are in serious shortage.

    Women should be allowed to pursue corporate and professional careers at their own level, without affirmative action in any way. Some women do not desire marriage and family, and that’s fine: eugenically we aren’t losing much from them choosing that. But most want children and families and the traditional dad-breadwinner, mom-homemaker families do that better than any other arrangement.

    • Replies: @Another Canadian

    A lot of service jobs were created, especially lawn care, babysitting, and chain restaurants, most of it low skill, low initiative work.
     
    Back when I was a kid, those jobs used to be called "housework" and "yardwork" and my parents gladly did them for the benefit of their family. However, Mom and Dad damn sure wouldn't do those shitty jobs for the benefit of others, so illegal Mexicans were brought in to do the "jobs Americans won't do." All the other mothers working at personally-fulfilling receptionist jobs got the privilege of paying for child care, eating dinner from a red-and-white-striped bucket, paying employment and income taxes and paying for the kids' tutoring.

    At retirement, the unspoken secret of Social Security was that Mom got the spousal benefit of 50% of Dad's benefit without paying in a sheckel. Surprise! Social Security is one of the few American institutions left that recognizes the value of "housework."
    , @Mr. Anon
    "Packing certain types of professional schooling with women has in fact been a complete disaster, such as veterinary schools-that’s why large animal vets are in serious shortage."

    That's an interesting take, which I hadn't considered. I suppose most women who go into veterinary medicine want to take care of cute fluffy little animals. To be fair, the demand for those services has probably increased; a lot of people take much better care of their pets than they used do.

    Another area where the presence of women has not improved things: engineering. By and large, women don't make good engineers. They are far less likely than men to care about things and how they work. The net effect of increasing the number of woman engineers is to decrease the actual amount of engineering that gets done.
  25. @anon
    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).

    http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Cox-with-Bramall-and-Aldred.jpg

    Man, I need to move to Utah.

    I notice she started having kids in her middle 20s and stopped having kids in her middle 30s, and didn’t have very many overall.

  26. @Thursday
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn't lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    What large corporations do like though is more people to buy stuff, more consumers. And working women have more disposable income. They're now being "productive."

    It depends what industries they are in. If they are in wealth creating industries (like manufacturing, farming, research and development) they are expanding the pie. However, if they are involved in wealth re-distrubition industries (like most government jobs and many service sector jobs such as real estate) they are simply redistrubiting existing wealth. Most women are engaged in the later type of work rather than the former.

    Also, even if women are in productive technical jobs, we need them to take time off work to pass on their genes to the next generation.

  27. The Mormon Relief Society was one of the big reasons women had more children there. It used to be the outlet for the kind of hard charging nosy parker dame that is represented by the lady in the article. And it was a truly ingenious outlet, diverting their worst tendencies while providing woman-to-woman support for the domestic life. It no longer looms quite as large in the lives of Mormon women, as evidenced by the fact that a (slim) majority of them are still in the workforce in little kids.

  28. @Wilkey
    "Though the state has the highest U.S. birth rate, it ranks 48th for affordability and availability of child care, according to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research in Washington"

    I wonder how they measured this? Did they only look at "official" child care businesses? My sense is that there is a pretty large informal network of child care providers in the state - siblings, grandparents, fellow congregants, etc., who help provide child care but do so in their homes, without advertising and without a business license. We have family members who are able to look after our kids, and lots of others I know do the same.

    Yep, the (older) neighbor lady with the big basement where all the kids went for a few hours a couple times a week was another major factor in making domestic life more appealing.

    Many of those pieces are still around, but not like they used to be, and of course the birth rates reflect that. Three is still very expected, but six is not as common as it used to be. I was a little disappointed to find in the demographic data that even Mormons are mostly following the national trends regarding having more than four children.

  29. …while riding a bicycle built for two past the state capitol.

    Dear Miss newsman, this is called a tandem.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Actually, the second, rarely heard verse says it all, very on-topic:


    1. Daisy, Daisy, give me you answer true.
    I'm half-crazy all for the love of you.
    It won't be a stylish marriage,
    I can't afford a carriage;
    But you'll look sweet
    Upon the seat
    Of a bicycle built for two.

    2. Henry, Henry, here is your answer true;
    I'm not crazy over the likes of you.
    If you can't afford a carriage,
    Forget about the marriage;
    'Cause I won't be jammed,
    I won't be crammed
    On a bicycle built for two.
  30. @Wilkey
    Does Bloomberg have a comment section? I don't see that it does anywhere. I guess they're worried that a comment section will allow readers to call bullshit on them.

    They use disqus, but not for every article. Like the NYT, it’s instructive to notice where they don’t allow comments and where they do.

  31. @Ivy
    Blame the Mormons in the crosshairs situation on Mitt Romney.
    He got noticed by the New York media and bad things tend to happen after that.

    Blame the Mormons in the crosshairs situation on Mitt Romney.
    He got noticed by the New York media and bad things tend to happen after that.

    Romney had little to do with it. Mormons joined the fight for marriage in California, and incurred the wrath of the Rainbow Shirts.

  32. iSteveFan says:

    Utah is `two generations’ behind U.S. in women’s metrics
    ….

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers. Though the state has the highest U.S. birth rate,

    And once Utah joins the rest of the US in this metric and its birth rate inevitably drops, the experts will tell them they are not having enough kids and must import third worlders to keep their labor supply growing to pay for the social safety net.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    iSteveFan, or we could go with the black demo, 72% single mothers, no man in the house and no problems...wait, that's not working out too well.
  33. @anon
    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).

    http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Cox-with-Bramall-and-Aldred.jpg

    Man, I need to move to Utah.

    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).

    Mormons consider their bodies as temples. Many Mormons keep good fitness, and their women tend to stay trim into their old age.

    Man, I need to move to Utah.

    Then you better become a Mormon. Although there is no persecution as such, non-Mormons often face unseen barriers to jobs, promotions, business, positions of authority, etc. when competing against Mormons.

    I am very conflicted about Mormons. They are, by and large, very moral people and vote the right way. They make great political allies and, better still, patriotic Americans. And they make fantastic neighbors provided they do not command a majority or a plurality in the community. But their motivations are less than pluralist when they do command such a position as reflected by the monolithic nature of their religious governance, and, of course, there is the matter of their bizarre and heretical doctrines.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My son used to come back from summer camp and complain that the Mormons were taking over the Boy Scouts in California.
    , @Desiderius
    Maybe there's some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe...
    , @Jenny
    And this is why it is nice for people to have their own countries. We are supposed to have 50 states. Everywhere else in the world, the word state refers to the country. I find it galling that little Ms. know it all wants to go out to nice decent safe Utah because you know, it is nice decent, safe and prosperous, but then she wants to screw it up. If everything was so freaking grand where she came from, why did she leave? I mean according to her there was so much more opportunity where she came from and so little in Utah, that she had to go to Utah, cuz,.. well why? Obviously no one was against her for being a woman, a non-mormon or in her particular case, a self-righteous snob. She is scum and an anti-woman prog. Gag.
    , @silver fish
    I have been in Utah for twenty years now. While I can't contradict the reports of others, I have noticed zero Mormon problems in terms of getting myself hired. There are some reasons why my experience might be atypical, namely, I work lousy jobs always anyway (so maybe the fix is only in on good jobs); also I do prefer to be nocturnal and Mormons are more of a day-shift herd (they are a day-shift herd in fact, but, that is not dispositive for the topic); and my personality and self-presentation tends to slot in easily with the Mormon group peculiarities, as follows...to my observation, Mormon men have a stunned, diffident, odd style of eye contact (you can tell this by hanging around near Temple Square during big hootenannys like General Conference, at which times you know who is a Mormon without asking them), furthermore (other people have made this same observation to me as well) Utah men seem relatively whipped vis a vis taking crap off of their women in public, and overall I experience Mormons as having a provincial deference, they mutter slightly against you to begin with but then roll over fast without being properly forced to it, so possibly my personal cheerful blatant disregard helps me get over on Mormons in an atypical way that prevents them from troubling me, but maybe they are still cruel to those who don't run over them...blah blah blah...with those caveats, I have not yet detected any trouble from my gentile identity...Maybe out in the weeds like Parowan or Bluebell or whatever small towns it might apply more, the population percentage of LDS is higher away from SLC, we are told...
  34. If Miss Colby and Perlich feel uncomfortable around Mormons, why don’t they switch to a meeting with these fellows, or look into the government of this country?

  35. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    You don’t just ‘raise’ a kid.

    You shape, mold, and create him or her with lessons on life, art, beauty, morality, spirituality, and etc.

    What is more rewarding? Creating a painting or ceramic or creating a living, thinking, feeling, moral, cultural, and spiritual being?
    It’s not just about feeding the mouth but feeding the mind, and some women see great challenge and joy in this.

    And when we consider the birth gap between white women and non-white women, it is wiser for white women to have more children. Demography is destiny.

    A woman can accumulate $30,000 worth of shoes. When she grows old and dies with material possession but no family, her stuff will all go in the trash can.

    But if she has kids and grandkids at her bedside, that is a life well lived.

    Besides, there is life before all else. Before there can be culture, there has to be life. Before there can be thought, there had to be life. Every individual was created from life, so the main purpose of life is to create more life. Life comes before career. If anything, jobs are supposed to serve life, not the other way around. We work to be able to afford the stuff necessary for life. Living to work is not what life is about. The secret is working to live. As we don’t live forever, our species/race continues only through the creation of more life.

    Since women can find mates even if they choose to quit job and be a mother, they can choose that option. But a man has to work because most women will not marry anyone without a job.
    For women, job is an option. For a man, it is a must.

    Living comes first. Life come first. Liveral than liberal.

  36. “Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. ”

    So more than half of mothers with small children are working outside the home, even in Utah. Considering that we are talking not just about mothers, but mothers with young children, in the most conservative state in the Union, you would think they would be satisfied with their progress? But I guess we can’t get complacent can we? We need to continue striving until no left child is behind (at home with his or her mother).

  37. @Twinkie

    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).
     
    Mormons consider their bodies as temples. Many Mormons keep good fitness, and their women tend to stay trim into their old age.

    Man, I need to move to Utah.
     
    Then you better become a Mormon. Although there is no persecution as such, non-Mormons often face unseen barriers to jobs, promotions, business, positions of authority, etc. when competing against Mormons.

    I am very conflicted about Mormons. They are, by and large, very moral people and vote the right way. They make great political allies and, better still, patriotic Americans. And they make fantastic neighbors provided they do not command a majority or a plurality in the community. But their motivations are less than pluralist when they do command such a position as reflected by the monolithic nature of their religious governance, and, of course, there is the matter of their bizarre and heretical doctrines.

    My son used to come back from summer camp and complain that the Mormons were taking over the Boy Scouts in California.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar


    My son used to come back from summer camp and complain that the Mormons were taking over the Boy Scouts in California.

     

    Still, that's better than the homos.
    , @polynikes
    Checkout today's Politico article on Trump if one needs any further proof that Trump is an HBDer. Lead paragraph talks about the family's "racehorse theory" on talent.


    Would link but I'm on my phone.
  38. @Steve Sailer
    My son used to come back from summer camp and complain that the Mormons were taking over the Boy Scouts in California.

    My son used to come back from summer camp and complain that the Mormons were taking over the Boy Scouts in California.

    Still, that’s better than the homos.

    • Agree: Stephen R. Diamond
  39. @a reader
    ...while riding a bicycle built for two past the state capitol.

    Dear Miss newsman, this is called a tandem.

    Actually, the second, rarely heard verse says it all, very on-topic:

    1. Daisy, Daisy, give me you answer true.
    I’m half-crazy all for the love of you.
    It won’t be a stylish marriage,
    I can’t afford a carriage;
    But you’ll look sweet
    Upon the seat
    Of a bicycle built for two.

    2. Henry, Henry, here is your answer true;
    I’m not crazy over the likes of you.
    If you can’t afford a carriage,
    Forget about the marriage;
    ‘Cause I won’t be jammed,
    I won’t be crammed
    On a bicycle built for two.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    OK, somebody tell me why 1) the italics didn't carry over to the second verse, an 2) why, with seven and a half minutes left on the clock to correct it, "You can no longer edit this comment"
  40. @Reg Cæsar
    Actually, the second, rarely heard verse says it all, very on-topic:


    1. Daisy, Daisy, give me you answer true.
    I'm half-crazy all for the love of you.
    It won't be a stylish marriage,
    I can't afford a carriage;
    But you'll look sweet
    Upon the seat
    Of a bicycle built for two.

    2. Henry, Henry, here is your answer true;
    I'm not crazy over the likes of you.
    If you can't afford a carriage,
    Forget about the marriage;
    'Cause I won't be jammed,
    I won't be crammed
    On a bicycle built for two.

    OK, somebody tell me why 1) the italics didn’t carry over to the second verse, an 2) why, with seven and a half minutes left on the clock to correct it, “You can no longer edit this comment”

    • Replies: @Harold
    I already alerted Unz to the italics issue at the latest announcement post. Maybe he hasn’t seen it. I could send an email but I don’t have an email address and am too lazy to create one. Maybe if you say Unz’s name three times he turns up and fixes bugs: Ron Unz, Ron Unz, Ron Unz. Or maybe it’s aready on his to do list.
  41. Women often find their aspirations stifled by what many in Salt Lake delicately refer to as “the culture.”

    This is the same “culture”, by the way, that made theirs the first church to endorse women’s suffrage and the only one to do so unanimously. Leaving aside New Jersey’s accidental suffrage of the 1790s, Utah just missed by months being the first polity in the world to give women an equal vote. That was in 1870.

    • Replies: @Richard

    This is the same “culture”, by the way, that made theirs the first church to endorse women’s suffrage and the only one to do so unanimously. Leaving aside New Jersey’s accidental suffrage of the 1790s, Utah just missed by months being the first polity in the world to give women an equal vote. That was in 1870.
     
    There was an ulterior motive to that. Mormons, consciously imitating the Biblical Exodus, tended to immigrate to Utah and other places with their whole families. Non-Mormons going out West were usually single men without a significant social network. Thus, giving women the vote greatly favored Mormon political control wherever that group had a significant presence, especially since Mormons in the 19th century usually voted as a bloc for whomever their religious leaders told them to (one of the big reasons why they became unpopular in Joseph Smith's day).
  42. @Twinkie

    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).
     
    Mormons consider their bodies as temples. Many Mormons keep good fitness, and their women tend to stay trim into their old age.

    Man, I need to move to Utah.
     
    Then you better become a Mormon. Although there is no persecution as such, non-Mormons often face unseen barriers to jobs, promotions, business, positions of authority, etc. when competing against Mormons.

    I am very conflicted about Mormons. They are, by and large, very moral people and vote the right way. They make great political allies and, better still, patriotic Americans. And they make fantastic neighbors provided they do not command a majority or a plurality in the community. But their motivations are less than pluralist when they do command such a position as reflected by the monolithic nature of their religious governance, and, of course, there is the matter of their bizarre and heretical doctrines.

    Maybe there’s some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe…

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Maybe there’s some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe…
     
    What tribe is that? The lost 13th tribe of the upper Northeast Yankees?
    , @timpleworthy linceum
    Not _that_ tribe.

    The original Mormons were mostly English-descended New York State farmers from the so-called "burned over district", an upstate area famous for regular and severe bouts of odd religiosity and weird organizational formations. By the standards of the day, the Mormons weren't even all that strange. They did pick up a fair number of Scandinavian and German immigrants as well as a few Scots-Irish along the way to Utah.

    Large families and the culling of Mother Nature produced a sturdy and reasonably intelligent gene pool, while the very stupid probably often never married and the very bright probably 'boiled off' at a higher than normal rate due to the sheer outrageousness of the Mormon theology and cosmology. (Except for Scientology and Urantia, a nuttier batch of spirit-batter is unimaginable, and Scientology for decades kept the really whacky stuff (OT III and up is where Xenu, Teegeeack and the rest come out IIRC) secret until after the marks were in for a great deal of money.)

    Mormon religion combines the best of science-fiction-fantasy teaching with a lot of supremely practical advice and working. It is actually very functional for those who can "believe" without having to actually believe, if you can understand that. And I think that's what most intelligent Mormons actually do.
    , @SFG
    It is part of Mormon theology, as I recall. Thus 'gentile' for non-Mormons. There was at least one case of a Jewish guy in the early days of Utah who used this to his advantage, but I don't remember the details.
  43. @Reg Cæsar
    OK, somebody tell me why 1) the italics didn't carry over to the second verse, an 2) why, with seven and a half minutes left on the clock to correct it, "You can no longer edit this comment"

    I already alerted Unz to the italics issue at the latest announcement post. Maybe he hasn’t seen it. I could send an email but I don’t have an email address and am too lazy to create one. Maybe if you say Unz’s name three times he turns up and fixes bugs: Ron Unz, Ron Unz, Ron Unz. Or maybe it’s aready on his to do list.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Are you saying Ron Unz is a benevolent form of Hastur? I think Brian Lumley did create 'good' versions of all the Cthulhu Mythos deities.
  44. @Reg Cæsar

    Women often find their aspirations stifled by what many in Salt Lake delicately refer to as “the culture.”
     
    This is the same "culture", by the way, that made theirs the first church to endorse women's suffrage and the only one to do so unanimously. Leaving aside New Jersey's accidental suffrage of the 1790s, Utah just missed by months being the first polity in the world to give women an equal vote. That was in 1870.

    This is the same “culture”, by the way, that made theirs the first church to endorse women’s suffrage and the only one to do so unanimously. Leaving aside New Jersey’s accidental suffrage of the 1790s, Utah just missed by months being the first polity in the world to give women an equal vote. That was in 1870.

    There was an ulterior motive to that. Mormons, consciously imitating the Biblical Exodus, tended to immigrate to Utah and other places with their whole families. Non-Mormons going out West were usually single men without a significant social network. Thus, giving women the vote greatly favored Mormon political control wherever that group had a significant presence, especially since Mormons in the 19th century usually voted as a bloc for whomever their religious leaders told them to (one of the big reasons why they became unpopular in Joseph Smith’s day).

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Well, duh.

    That was their version of Dixie's three-fifths rule-- inflate and conquer. The male population was evenly divided; the adult population, heavily Mormon.

    Even the Quakers, Unitarians and other "liberal" sects had internal debates about the issue. Not Mormons. They were lockstep in favor. Bill Kauffman wrote sympathetically about the (mostly female) antisuffragists, and quoted one who cracked, "Not every suffragist is a Mormon, but every Mormon is a suffragist."

  45. @Wilkey
    "Bloomberg has a story on how the Utah social model of affordable family formation is succeeding and, therefore, must be torn down in the name of higher corporate profits feminism"

    Oh dear God. It's being torn down already. There is absolutely no shortage of women - including married women - in the Utah workforce. Home prices are soaring back out of control and commutes are getting ridiculous.

    "as general manager of City Creek Center...Wardell is still often the lone woman in meetings

    Wardell is a non-Mormon woman working for a Jewish run company (Taubman Centers) managing a mall owned by the Mormon church. Apparently the aged men who run the church were fine with it.

    "Except now she’s also part of a pack of mostly female executives, and some men, determined to drag the state’s workplaces out of the 1970s."

    Rewrite that: "Except now she's part of a pack of executives determined to lower Utah's birthrate to the same far below replacement level rate of fertility seen in so many other states and countries." - at which point Bloomberg will wonder why Utah fertility rates are below replacement level and explain to us we need to import a million Muslims to cure that.

    "Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent."

    Somehow that's a problem. It would be so much better if more young children were sent off to warehouses while their mothers slaved away for $16/hour.

    "Women also are less represented on campuses, with Utah one of the few states where male students still outnumber female."

    But when women outnumber men by 3 to 2 on every other campus in the country it's no big deal.

    "Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed."

    Says who? And why can't it?

    "Anderson...began promoting a more robust role for women after retaining a firm Jones ran to conduct market research more than a decade ago."

    Anderson is one of the biggest promoters of open borders in the state of Utah. He pushes the cause every chance he gets and his name shows up on every effort to pass amnesty. He is also the kind of business exec who gives to politicians of every ideology and every party, from Harry Reid to Mike Lee, all because it's his "civic duty" (wink wink). Totally the kind of thing that guy who starred in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" - what was his name? - would go along with.

    "“It just makes good business sense,” says the soft-spoken executive, whose tall, slender build and earnest manner evoke actor James Stewart."

    ROFLMAO.

    You know who else has a tall, slender build and speaks in an earnest, soft-spoken manner that evokes actor Jimmy Stewart? Jeff Sessions

    I'll leave it to y'all to judge who looks more like Mr. Stewart. I'll leave it to y'all to ask yourselves whether Bloomberg will ever describe Senator Sessions that way.

    Anderson looks more like Rudy Vallee in How to Get Ahead in Business. Or Edward Herrman.

  46. @Former Darfur
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn’t lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    Bullshit.

    When women with children entered the workforce en masse, the number of consumers stayed about the same, whereas the number of workers increased substantially. True, the two income families could afford "more stuff", but they didn't have the time to enjoy it.

    A lot of service jobs were created, especially lawn care, babysitting, and chain restaurants, most of it low skill, low initiative work.

    Women do do certain jobs better than men, such as electronic assembly, but those are low paying jobs. And there was never a shortage of young or old women to do those jobs anyway. Women are, as a rule, not better than men in terms of corporate leadership.

    Packing certain types of professional schooling with women has in fact been a complete disaster, such as veterinary schools-that's why large animal vets are in serious shortage.

    Women should be allowed to pursue corporate and professional careers at their own level, without affirmative action in any way. Some women do not desire marriage and family, and that's fine: eugenically we aren't losing much from them choosing that. But most want children and families and the traditional dad-breadwinner, mom-homemaker families do that better than any other arrangement.

    A lot of service jobs were created, especially lawn care, babysitting, and chain restaurants, most of it low skill, low initiative work.

    Back when I was a kid, those jobs used to be called “housework” and “yardwork” and my parents gladly did them for the benefit of their family. However, Mom and Dad damn sure wouldn’t do those shitty jobs for the benefit of others, so illegal Mexicans were brought in to do the “jobs Americans won’t do.” All the other mothers working at personally-fulfilling receptionist jobs got the privilege of paying for child care, eating dinner from a red-and-white-striped bucket, paying employment and income taxes and paying for the kids’ tutoring.

    At retirement, the unspoken secret of Social Security was that Mom got the spousal benefit of 50% of Dad’s benefit without paying in a sheckel. Surprise! Social Security is one of the few American institutions left that recognizes the value of “housework.”

  47. And now the Bank of the United States, Goldman Sachs, has set up shop out there.

  48. @rod1963
    Bunch of white neoliberals and bitter harpies promoting anti-family stupidity,

    What Ema Ostarcevic won't tell women, the corporate world demands it all from their employees (it's a meat grinder) and that "meaningful career" is basically a pile of steaming dung that comes at the cost of a young woman's best years striving to get up the ladder while sacrificing her children just so she can afford a new Lexus and that custom decorated home. If she's lucky she'll have a dead marriage where the kids never bonded to mom because she wasn't there during their formative years. If not she'll be a bitter old maid at 40 with nothing to look forward except a bottle of Xanax, Jim Beam after work and the occasional boy toy.

    And if you're lucky and reach retirement age - which most never will, within 5 minutes of retiring everyone will have forgotten about you and your health will be shot from enduring 40 years of bad food and endless stress in a Herman Miller cube farm. Yeah that's something to look forward to.

    That's the corporate life for most.

    Great post, cube livestock unite!

  49. Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers.

    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work, the highest percentage in the country. Another catastrophe for women’s equality!

    The article doesn’t mention yet another factor that drags down Utah’s women: Only 15% of the births in Utah are to unwed mothers, the lowest figure in the country, compared to an average nationwide of 36%.

    Women will never be free as long as men insist on marrying them and working to support their children.

    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    Oops. I meant "married fathers with young children"
    , @ren


    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers.
     
    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work, the highest percentage in the country. Another catastrophe for women’s equality!
     
    You make a really good point here, which of course leads to the next. How does that 95% of married fathers correlate to fraction of white. That is, is this a typical feature of white life? a typical feature of married life? etc. I am guessing there are lots of fathers of young children out there who are not working, but are they white?

    And yes, the little tart who wrote that deliberately left out the word married from her description of fathers.
    , @ben tillman

    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work,
     
    No, it doesn't mean that. It means that 95.5% of *all* fathers work, and presumably a higher percentage of married fathers do.
  50. Is the Eye of Soros now turning its hideous gaze to Mormonism?

    Utah, you had a nice 150 year run, but now the time has come to destroy the last remaining bits of America that have been mistakenly allowed to have nice things. A pity, really, but eventually all must be dragged, willingly or no, over to the right side of history.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Utah, you had a nice 150 year run, but now the time has come to destroy the last remaining bits of America that have been mistakenly allowed to have nice things.
     
    Right. The Left fosters entropy.
  51. @asdf
    Change Mormon to Muslim and would the Times be kvetching about some religion keeping the women down?

    There is NO rationale anymore. Designated target - Mormon. Done. 1984 - came a little late. Different vibe. The brainwashing was better than expected.

    Change Mormon to Muslim and would the Times be kvetching about some religion keeping the women down?

    Oofs! I mean oops! You didn’t get the metaphorical memo apparently. You’re not supposed to notice things/ask questions like that! What are you trying to do?! Embarrass the NYT by spitting their hypocrisy and bias right back in their collective faces?

    • Replies: @eah
    I should correct myself:

    Embarrass the NYT... should of course be Embarrass Bloomberg... -- I guess I'm too accustomed to stuff like this coming from the NYT.
  52. But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.

    Why? They never bother to explain, presumably because they can’t.

    • Replies: @Boris Notspasky
    exactly

    They got here with this model, why can't they keep it going?

    Okay, Laura, go ahead and tell us.
    , @AndrewR
    Translation: corporations can no longer resist pushing feminism on Utah in order to increase profits
    , @Mr. Anon
    Yes, that is a common "argument" employed in propaganda pieces like these: Everything they have done till now has led to a very enviable and prosperous outcome; therefore, they must change everything. It's as if a doctor were to tell a healthy middle-aged patient: You've maintained your health remarkably well up till now, but in order to stay healthy, I recommend that you take up heavy drug use, binge-drinking, and chain-smoking.
  53. Of course Utah makes the elites nervous. It’s 90+% white, heavily religious, heavily traditional, and fecund. And prosperous. And they never even had slaves. It rebukes everything the narrative tells us is true about modern life.

    Expect the elites to be all over this one like 1960s Philip Morris on a study that says smoking causes cancer.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Expect the elites to be all over this one like 1960s Philip Morris on a study that says smoking causes cancer.

     

    Hey, wait… I thought those "studies" were a Yankee plot to keep the South down. Are you saying they have validity? Paging Svigor…
  54. @officious intermeddler

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers.
     
    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work, the highest percentage in the country. Another catastrophe for women's equality!

    The article doesn't mention yet another factor that drags down Utah's women: Only 15% of the births in Utah are to unwed mothers, the lowest figure in the country, compared to an average nationwide of 36%.

    Women will never be free as long as men insist on marrying them and working to support their children.

    Oops. I meant “married fathers with young children”

  55. “drag the state’s workplaces out of the 1970s”

    Sorry, I missed everything else after that as I was chortling over memories of “Chilly Scenes of Winter” (originally released as Head Over Heels). Granted that was a gov’t office and in full-on Salt Lake City, but smoking at one’s desk, typewriters, and filing cabinets … good times. There’s one movie that I’m not sure if I’d rather have the Sailer treatment of it, or the Lilek.

    Yes, all too often our self-appointed betters seem hell-bent on taking the expression “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” and turning it on its head.

  56. @Ed

    “The majority of my friends from high school are home with children,” says -year-old executive recruiter Ema Ostarcevic, who was born in Croatia and whose family isn’t Mormon. “I can count on one hand how many aren’t.”
     
    So what? If these women want to work they can do so. They choose not to.

    These business executives are going to end up messing a good thing in Utah trying to appease these social justice warriors. Kind of like how Wal-Mart is tanking because they raised wages to appease progressives.

    I imagine the children will show the benefits of having a mother at home, rather than at some job of less importance than rearing your own children.

    • Replies: @fnn

    I imagine the children will show the benefits of having a mother at home, rather than at some job of less importance than rearing your own children.
     
    Well, HBD blogger Jayman has a ton of evidence showing that there are no benefits. It might be better for community cohesion, but you're going to have that anyway with a whole bunch of Mormons.
  57. Utah sounds like utopia. Not that it’s a common occurrence, but I’m never going to make a joke about Mormons again.

  58. @eah
    Change Mormon to Muslim and would the Times be kvetching about some religion keeping the women down?

    Oofs! I mean oops! You didn't get the metaphorical memo apparently. You're not supposed to notice things/ask questions like that! What are you trying to do?! Embarrass the NYT by spitting their hypocrisy and bias right back in their collective faces?

    I should correct myself:

    Embarrass the NYT… should of course be Embarrass Bloomberg… — I guess I’m too accustomed to stuff like this coming from the NYT.

  59. @Twinkie

    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?
     
    I don't think it's just cheap land. There are other places in the U.S. with cheaper land still. Low real estate cost helps, but I think real reasons are that 1) Mormons, especially Mormon women, are very thrifty. Even in high cost areas, Mormon families are renowned for living "on the cheap." And 2) As others have pointed out, Mormons have a strong communal safety net and morality/ideology that encourages family-formation even with low relative income.

    Utah is unique for cheap real estate near good job opportunities.

    You can buy good houses in safe neighborhoods within commuting distance to downtown Salt Lake City. Upstate New York also has cheap real estate. But poor job opportunities so no one buys.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    You get a lot of house for the money in Utah compared to most other parts of the country. The fecund population generated a demand for 5 and 6 bedroom houses.

    The big houses provide plenty of room for crafts, projects, libraries, general family together time and even in-law apartments.

    That comes in especially handy during the inclement weather when not at church or skiing with, as they say, the greatest snow on earth. Utah can be good for non-LDS as well, with significant populations of Catholics and Greek Orthodox, for example.
  60. @rod1963
    Bunch of white neoliberals and bitter harpies promoting anti-family stupidity,

    What Ema Ostarcevic won't tell women, the corporate world demands it all from their employees (it's a meat grinder) and that "meaningful career" is basically a pile of steaming dung that comes at the cost of a young woman's best years striving to get up the ladder while sacrificing her children just so she can afford a new Lexus and that custom decorated home. If she's lucky she'll have a dead marriage where the kids never bonded to mom because she wasn't there during their formative years. If not she'll be a bitter old maid at 40 with nothing to look forward except a bottle of Xanax, Jim Beam after work and the occasional boy toy.

    And if you're lucky and reach retirement age - which most never will, within 5 minutes of retiring everyone will have forgotten about you and your health will be shot from enduring 40 years of bad food and endless stress in a Herman Miller cube farm. Yeah that's something to look forward to.

    That's the corporate life for most.

    But ((((Sheryl Sandberg)))) told me that wymyn could Have It All™!

  61. Utah is behind the rest of the western world; its women are only just getting started with nagging it into a decline. Let’s see if the Mormons do pass the shit test.

    I apologize for using a pick up artistry term, but when dealing with shrews it’s the only language that can express what’s going on.

  62. Only about 59% of Salt Lake’s population is Mormon and about 27% of residents don’t consider themselves religious at all. About a third of the total population is “of color” if you don’t separate out white Hispanics (as journalists almost never do).

    I lived in Salt Lake City a few years ago. There were lots of people there from Mexico and points further south, even some from Peru and Chile. Most of those people aren’t Mormon (though I did meet a very cute Mexican girl giving tours at the Lion House) and some of them even place notes on their doors alerting Mormon missionaries that they “already have a religion.” On the other hand, there are also lots of Polynesians, and many of them are LDS.

    Interestingly, in Utah I didn’t notice the same level of labor segregation that seems to occur in many other parts of the US these days where immigration levels are high. Granted, the management ranks of many old Salt Lake and Utah-derived businesses are probably mostly comprised of white, LDS men, but there also seemed to be plenty of non-Hispanic whites doing more menial work that in other places would be almost exclusively Latino, and there’re plenty of Latinos in Utah.

    “They said, ‘You’re an overweight, balding, middle-aged man,’” he recalls, arching his eyebrows in dismay.

    Yeah, overweight like a majority of Americans these days. Most people could control it to some extent, but some can’t. Criticism could help or hurt. But baldness: unless someone wants to wear a wig or get a cosmetic procedure (x 10) done, losing one’s hair isn’t really a choice. Bald people are “born this way” and are just reverting back to their primeval form. Should “dusky” still be a put down? Remember that effective skin lightening creams are available (though a “dusky” person may have to travel to the D.R. or Kenya to purchase them). Being dusky is a choice; black people literally weren’t “born this way.” And middle-aged? Decades ago, people like Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin learned how to prevent middle age. But for the rest of us who don’t yet do hard drugs and who value living more than we dislike aging, I guess there’s always the Social Security Administration to save us from our shame.

    Note: Revlon’s tagline — “Because you’re worth it,” sounds a little like “#Black lives matter.” Potential marketing tie-in? Any Dominican Revlon executives in this audience? I also liked that “work-a-daddies” line in your commentary Steve.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Only about 59% of Salt Lake’s population is Mormon
     
    "Only"?

    By the way, SLC's crime statistics are interesting. Between 2001 and 2013, the murder rate plummeted by over 60%, but the rape rate skyrocketed by 60%. And this has occurred while the national average rape rate has been falling slightly. SLC, as of 2013, has a rape rate that is over four times (!) the national average.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    One lesson I've learned in life is how important one's physical attractiveness is in determing your social status. Especially these days, being good looking carries significant social (and sexual) benefits.
    , @Deduction

    But baldness: unless someone wants to wear a wig or get a cosmetic procedure (x 10) done, losing one’s hair isn’t really a choice. Bald people are “born this way” and are just reverting back to their primeval form.
     
    Minoxidil and Finasteride are both cheap and proven to work and with minimal side-effects, whatever a few hypercondriacs says.

    They're like steroids. All of Hollywood is on them but no-one wants to admit it, because admitting it means that they lose a signficant part of the social value of their 'natural' good looks.
  63. @Steve Sailer
    My son used to come back from summer camp and complain that the Mormons were taking over the Boy Scouts in California.

    Checkout today’s Politico article on Trump if one needs any further proof that Trump is an HBDer. Lead paragraph talks about the family’s “racehorse theory” on talent.

    Would link but I’m on my phone.

  64. @asdf
    Change Mormon to Muslim and would the Times be kvetching about some religion keeping the women down?

    There is NO rationale anymore. Designated target - Mormon. Done. 1984 - came a little late. Different vibe. The brainwashing was better than expected.

    Forget the Islamic world. Forget kooky religions in Utah. What about Orthodox Jews in New York and New Jersey? Bloomberg, as mayor of NYC refused to enforce the educational laws of the city and state. Those laws mandate that all young people receive math, science, English, and history lessons K-12. Yet everyone knows that those laws are not enforced at Jewish schools. Religious Jews want their children to remain uncorrupted by pointless secular knowledge. How else can their women be persuaded to have 6-10 kids each?

    This is common knowledge in New York and New Jersey. Bloomberg knows this. Bloomberg kept providing tax money to these schools. He refused to prosecute the grotesque and commonplace educational and tax fraud that enable this lifestyle to continue.

    Yet Bloomberg now sends his reporter-minions out to a healthy, normal, functioning, non-repressive, non-fraudulent, non-tax-sucking state, over a thousand miles from his own city, the city he ruled for over a decade, to damn Utahns for having healthy, normal goy families.

    If Bloomberg really gave a damn about women making too many babies and not becoming office drones why didn’t he, why doesn’t he step across his office to his window and look right across the river at his own people?

    Why isn’t he “a light unto his OWN nation” if it is so almighty important for women to abort, contracept, and drone their lives away?

  65. @Twinkie

    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).
     
    Mormons consider their bodies as temples. Many Mormons keep good fitness, and their women tend to stay trim into their old age.

    Man, I need to move to Utah.
     
    Then you better become a Mormon. Although there is no persecution as such, non-Mormons often face unseen barriers to jobs, promotions, business, positions of authority, etc. when competing against Mormons.

    I am very conflicted about Mormons. They are, by and large, very moral people and vote the right way. They make great political allies and, better still, patriotic Americans. And they make fantastic neighbors provided they do not command a majority or a plurality in the community. But their motivations are less than pluralist when they do command such a position as reflected by the monolithic nature of their religious governance, and, of course, there is the matter of their bizarre and heretical doctrines.

    And this is why it is nice for people to have their own countries. We are supposed to have 50 states. Everywhere else in the world, the word state refers to the country. I find it galling that little Ms. know it all wants to go out to nice decent safe Utah because you know, it is nice decent, safe and prosperous, but then she wants to screw it up. If everything was so freaking grand where she came from, why did she leave? I mean according to her there was so much more opportunity where she came from and so little in Utah, that she had to go to Utah, cuz,.. well why? Obviously no one was against her for being a woman, a non-mormon or in her particular case, a self-righteous snob. She is scum and an anti-woman prog. Gag.

  66. Former Democratic state legislator Patricia Jones

    Clearly, she got elected without the votes of any “overweight, balding, middle-aged man.”

    When I finished my MBA in ’00 at a large southern, well-respected university, I got a decent job offer from Zions Bank in Salt Lake City.

  67. Will Mike Bloomberg, anti-gun fanatic in the US, support gun bans in Israel?

    Israelis invest in firepower as knife attacks rise

    http://news.yahoo.com/israelis-invest-firepower-knife-attacks-rise-035421290.html

  68. Folks can complain about Mormonism being a heresy and a cult all they like, but there’s no denying that they’ve succeeded where almost every other Christian denomination has failed. At a time when Protestantism is drying up in the hot sun and Rome is transmogrifying into a pro-Muslim Latin American oligarchy the Mormons are still building safe communities, still reproducing themselves, and (most importantly) still passing down their faith to the next generation. Can’t say that about the Anglicans.

    Non-Mormons (like myself) need to put up for shut up.

  69. @officious intermeddler

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers.
     
    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work, the highest percentage in the country. Another catastrophe for women's equality!

    The article doesn't mention yet another factor that drags down Utah's women: Only 15% of the births in Utah are to unwed mothers, the lowest figure in the country, compared to an average nationwide of 36%.

    Women will never be free as long as men insist on marrying them and working to support their children.

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers.

    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work, the highest percentage in the country. Another catastrophe for women’s equality!

    You make a really good point here, which of course leads to the next. How does that 95% of married fathers correlate to fraction of white. That is, is this a typical feature of white life? a typical feature of married life? etc. I am guessing there are lots of fathers of young children out there who are not working, but are they white?

    And yes, the little tart who wrote that deliberately left out the word married from her description of fathers.

  70. @ben tillman

    But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.
     
    Why? They never bother to explain, presumably because they can't.

    exactly

    They got here with this model, why can’t they keep it going?

    Okay, Laura, go ahead and tell us.

  71. Utah is `two generations’ behind U.S. in women’s metrics

    And two generations behind in wealth inequality?

    And two generations behind in illegitimacy rates?

    And two generations behind in white family decimation?

    And targeted by NYC Bloomberg for destruction.

    Coincidence?

    Maybe not.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    And two generations behind in wealth inequality?

    And two generations behind in illegitimacy rates?

    And two generations behind in white family decimation?

    And targeted by NYC Bloomberg for destruction.
     
    Prepare for Camp of the Latter-Day Saints.
  72. @rod1963
    Bunch of white neoliberals and bitter harpies promoting anti-family stupidity,

    What Ema Ostarcevic won't tell women, the corporate world demands it all from their employees (it's a meat grinder) and that "meaningful career" is basically a pile of steaming dung that comes at the cost of a young woman's best years striving to get up the ladder while sacrificing her children just so she can afford a new Lexus and that custom decorated home. If she's lucky she'll have a dead marriage where the kids never bonded to mom because she wasn't there during their formative years. If not she'll be a bitter old maid at 40 with nothing to look forward except a bottle of Xanax, Jim Beam after work and the occasional boy toy.

    And if you're lucky and reach retirement age - which most never will, within 5 minutes of retiring everyone will have forgotten about you and your health will be shot from enduring 40 years of bad food and endless stress in a Herman Miller cube farm. Yeah that's something to look forward to.

    That's the corporate life for most.

    That’s the corporate life for most.

    Most people I know at work can’t stand it there and would love to leave. I am not a woman, but if I were I would much rather stay at home with my kids. There is nothing meaningful or satisfying about it for most.

    Also, most women working aren’t executives or managers, but just workers who can be laid off at any time.

  73. Part of the attraction is a workforce with Mormons who learned languages and entrepreneurial skills during missions abroad

    Yeah, sure. They’ll be great when the need arises to sell in Mozambique and Fiji.
    But far more helpful is that they can all communicate effectively with one another, in English. Unlike the people I work with in Silicon Valley, who, when you can understand their words at all, think English, like Chinese, lacks the notion of verb tense or mood (indicative/conditional).

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn't to help the natives, it's to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.
  74. @Thursday
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn't lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    What large corporations do like though is more people to buy stuff, more consumers. And working women have more disposable income. They're now being "productive."

    Thursday

    not that you are necessarily wrong, but have you any actual data to back this claim up?

    Adding people to the workforce does not ipso facto result in increased demand for products, which is the raison d’etre for the work, isn’t it?

    Try a thought experiment – suppose that there is a population of 1000 men and 1000 women in a city producing automobiles. The work is done exclusively by men. If all of a sudden, every woman entered into the workforce competing for the auto jobs, does that mean that the demand for cars would double? Does that not presume that prior to the entry, no women had cars?

    Of course “the economy” will grow – but will the number of jobs created equal the number of new competitors for them? If the answer is “no,” then almost surely wages will go down.

    I’ve wondered fo many years – and looked for an actual analysis (and been thus far unsuccessful) that examines the impact of the entry of women in the workforce in numbers on wages for the middle class. It may just be a statistical artefact that real wages basically stopped growing (1973) at just about the same time women enetered the work force in large numbers. I would like to see this analysed in a serious way, but I suspect even asking the question is taboo in the current climate.

  75. @Desiderius
    Maybe there's some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe...

    Maybe there’s some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe…

    What tribe is that? The lost 13th tribe of the upper Northeast Yankees?

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    What tribe is that? The lost 13th tribe of the upper Northeast Yankees?
     
    If you're at all a fan of Mormons, as I am with some serious reservations, you may not want to delve too deeply into their founding beliefs.

    If you do, you'll find, yes, the Tribe, complete with Urim and Thummim, et. al.

    Steve's characterization of their behavior I was responding too suggests that the apple didn't fall far from that putative tree.
  76. @IBC
    Only about 59% of Salt Lake's population is Mormon and about 27% of residents don't consider themselves religious at all. About a third of the total population is "of color" if you don't separate out white Hispanics (as journalists almost never do).

    I lived in Salt Lake City a few years ago. There were lots of people there from Mexico and points further south, even some from Peru and Chile. Most of those people aren't Mormon (though I did meet a very cute Mexican girl giving tours at the Lion House) and some of them even place notes on their doors alerting Mormon missionaries that they "already have a religion." On the other hand, there are also lots of Polynesians, and many of them are LDS.

    Interestingly, in Utah I didn't notice the same level of labor segregation that seems to occur in many other parts of the US these days where immigration levels are high. Granted, the management ranks of many old Salt Lake and Utah-derived businesses are probably mostly comprised of white, LDS men, but there also seemed to be plenty of non-Hispanic whites doing more menial work that in other places would be almost exclusively Latino, and there're plenty of Latinos in Utah.


    “They said, ‘You’re an overweight, balding, middle-aged man,’” he recalls, arching his eyebrows in dismay.
     
    Yeah, overweight like a majority of Americans these days. Most people could control it to some extent, but some can't. Criticism could help or hurt. But baldness: unless someone wants to wear a wig or get a cosmetic procedure (x 10) done, losing one's hair isn't really a choice. Bald people are "born this way" and are just reverting back to their primeval form. Should "dusky" still be a put down? Remember that effective skin lightening creams are available (though a "dusky" person may have to travel to the D.R. or Kenya to purchase them). Being dusky is a choice; black people literally weren't "born this way." And middle-aged? Decades ago, people like Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin learned how to prevent middle age. But for the rest of us who don't yet do hard drugs and who value living more than we dislike aging, I guess there's always the Social Security Administration to save us from our shame.

    Note: Revlon's tagline -- "Because you're worth it," sounds a little like "#Black lives matter." Potential marketing tie-in? Any Dominican Revlon executives in this audience? I also liked that "work-a-daddies" line in your commentary Steve.

    Only about 59% of Salt Lake’s population is Mormon

    “Only”?

    By the way, SLC’s crime statistics are interesting. Between 2001 and 2013, the murder rate plummeted by over 60%, but the rape rate skyrocketed by 60%. And this has occurred while the national average rape rate has been falling slightly. SLC, as of 2013, has a rape rate that is over four times (!) the national average.

    • Replies: @IBC
    It looks like that's due to a change in legal definitions:

    http://universe.byu.edu/2014/11/12/violent-crime-is-low-in-utah-overall-but-rape-rates-are-high/

    When I lived in SLC, there was a problem with smashed car windows, petty theft, and begging in certain areas. I think this was partly thanks to drug abuse because I also noticed quite a few destitute-looking people (all white), who judging by their skin, may have been meth addicts. I did hear reports of knife fights among some of the Polynesians and was advised to be careful in some parts of town after dark. In some ways, Salt Lake City has a kind of communitarian feel to it. But for those who reject the Church and find themselves hard up, it's more like the Wild West with 24-hour bail bond offices, pawn shops, and incredibly seedy motels. Salt Lake City has one of the nicest public libraries (main branch) that I've ever been in. But inside, there were the same sort of homeless-looking (and smelling) people that one can find in other big cities across the country.

    I'd guess that towns like Provo (where BYU is) are more consistently spick and span, both physically and culturally. In contrast, Park City used to be known for being the opposite of a Mormon town. For several years in the 19th century, they supposedly had more whore houses than churches. And nowadays, the demographic mix there of wealthy Hollywood types and Mexican service workers, is also pretty un-Saintly. It'd be interesting to see how it compares with "sexist but equal" Ogden.

  77. @Hubbub
    I imagine the children will show the benefits of having a mother at home, rather than at some job of less importance than rearing your own children.

    I imagine the children will show the benefits of having a mother at home, rather than at some job of less importance than rearing your own children.

    Well, HBD blogger Jayman has a ton of evidence showing that there are no benefits. It might be better for community cohesion, but you’re going to have that anyway with a whole bunch of Mormons.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Well, HBD blogger Jayman has a ton of evidence showing that there are no benefits
     
    If there are "no benefits", how come my family is happier that way. Far happier.

    Lies, damned lies, and statistics? Or are we the deluded ones?
  78. @ben tillman

    But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.
     
    Why? They never bother to explain, presumably because they can't.

    Translation: corporations can no longer resist pushing feminism on Utah in order to increase profits

  79. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The suspicion that Feminism(tm) is more often than not a Trojan horse for globo-capitalism has been in the air since at least 9/11 but probably first became clear with the fall of the USSR, aka 6 days before “The Year of the Woman” if you remember certain archaic models rolled off the assembly line by the campaign consultant class. Old reds such as Aussie commie John Pilger and new wannabes like Thomas Frank have publicly complained that women’s empowerment is a brain-dead distraction from the class struggle. I wonder when the good leftists will start to realize where the logic of this minoritarian discovery leads.

  80. From Who Was Who: 5000BC-1914:

    YOUNG, Brigham, the man who introduced Mohammedanism into the United States and placed Utah on the flag. When a young man he became a strong anti-monogamist. Moved west with his wives. Utah increased in population and was admitted as a state. After building a great temple, dedicated to Hymen, he died, leaving a considerable family and a few widows. Heirs: See Utah census.

  81. @Thursday
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn't lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    What large corporations do like though is more people to buy stuff, more consumers. And working women have more disposable income. They're now being "productive."

    “Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn’t lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.”

    Is there anything quite as stupid as an economist?

  82. @Jimi
    Utah is unique for cheap real estate near good job opportunities.

    You can buy good houses in safe neighborhoods within commuting distance to downtown Salt Lake City. Upstate New York also has cheap real estate. But poor job opportunities so no one buys.

    You get a lot of house for the money in Utah compared to most other parts of the country. The fecund population generated a demand for 5 and 6 bedroom houses.

    The big houses provide plenty of room for crafts, projects, libraries, general family together time and even in-law apartments.

    That comes in especially handy during the inclement weather when not at church or skiing with, as they say, the greatest snow on earth. Utah can be good for non-LDS as well, with significant populations of Catholics and Greek Orthodox, for example.

  83. @ben tillman

    But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.
     
    Why? They never bother to explain, presumably because they can't.

    Yes, that is a common “argument” employed in propaganda pieces like these: Everything they have done till now has led to a very enviable and prosperous outcome; therefore, they must change everything. It’s as if a doctor were to tell a healthy middle-aged patient: You’ve maintained your health remarkably well up till now, but in order to stay healthy, I recommend that you take up heavy drug use, binge-drinking, and chain-smoking.

  84. @Former Darfur
    Women entering the workforce do not drive down wages overall. That is an economic fallacy. Just like more people being born or even adding more high IQ immigrants doesn’t lower wages overall. The economy just gets bigger. Supply must meet demand.

    Bullshit.

    When women with children entered the workforce en masse, the number of consumers stayed about the same, whereas the number of workers increased substantially. True, the two income families could afford "more stuff", but they didn't have the time to enjoy it.

    A lot of service jobs were created, especially lawn care, babysitting, and chain restaurants, most of it low skill, low initiative work.

    Women do do certain jobs better than men, such as electronic assembly, but those are low paying jobs. And there was never a shortage of young or old women to do those jobs anyway. Women are, as a rule, not better than men in terms of corporate leadership.

    Packing certain types of professional schooling with women has in fact been a complete disaster, such as veterinary schools-that's why large animal vets are in serious shortage.

    Women should be allowed to pursue corporate and professional careers at their own level, without affirmative action in any way. Some women do not desire marriage and family, and that's fine: eugenically we aren't losing much from them choosing that. But most want children and families and the traditional dad-breadwinner, mom-homemaker families do that better than any other arrangement.

    “Packing certain types of professional schooling with women has in fact been a complete disaster, such as veterinary schools-that’s why large animal vets are in serious shortage.”

    That’s an interesting take, which I hadn’t considered. I suppose most women who go into veterinary medicine want to take care of cute fluffy little animals. To be fair, the demand for those services has probably increased; a lot of people take much better care of their pets than they used do.

    Another area where the presence of women has not improved things: engineering. By and large, women don’t make good engineers. They are far less likely than men to care about things and how they work. The net effect of increasing the number of woman engineers is to decrease the actual amount of engineering that gets done.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    My sister dreamed of being a veterinarian ever since she entered her horsey phase at age 12. (Do girls still do that, or is noticing frowned upon?)

    Her professors dissuaded her by pointing out the obvious problem of small human stature versus large equines. Nowadays, they would be hounded out of teaching for uttering such dream-crushing common sense. She respected their advice and still loves horses, just not as a large animal vet.
  85. @International Jew

    Part of the attraction is a workforce with Mormons who learned languages and entrepreneurial skills during missions abroad
     
    Yeah, sure. They'll be great when the need arises to sell in Mozambique and Fiji.
    But far more helpful is that they can all communicate effectively with one another, in English. Unlike the people I work with in Silicon Valley, who, when you can understand their words at all, think English, like Chinese, lacks the notion of verb tense or mood (indicative/conditional).

    The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn’t to help the natives, it’s to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn’t to help the natives, it’s to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.
     
    I've never heard anyone say anything like that. But it's believable.
    , @Wilkey
    "The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn’t to help the natives, it’s to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home."

    Yeah, a big part of the mission experience is that it serves to reinforce the faith of those who go. It's an experience young Mormon men (and many women) can be told to look forward to. Then, once they're off the mission, in a culture that frowns upon premarital sex, they can be pushed straight into marriage, ideally leaving them as little time as possible to question the faith. That's great for helping to boost the birthrates but also reduces the impact Mormons have on the culture - fewer Mormons with lots of time on their hands to form bands, write plays, try to make it in Hollywood, etc.

    But missions are also about winning converts. Converts in the First World are becoming harder and harder to get, in large part because of all the information available about the real history of the church. Ask any Mormon who served in a First World mission how many new members they baptized, and the answer is likely to be two or less - for a two year mission. That's why an increasingly large share of US missionaries learn Spanish before leaving the training center.
  86. (1) The power and value of a religion has nothing to do with the
    personality or probity of its founder. The best example of that is
    provided by the Mormons, who are today the most solid and stable cult
    in the United States, and who successfully resisted longer than any
    other large church the contagious decay that quickly reduced all
    others, with the exception of some small, scattered, and discordant
    Fundamentalist churches and some pockets of Traditionalist Catholics,
    to the contemptible quackery of a “social gospel” and hypocritical
    irrationality. This really astonishing and massive religious edifice
    was founded by one Joseph Smith, a petty swindler who began his career
    by fleecing suckers by means of a magic stone through which he could
    see treasure buried in the earth, but after he was arrested and got off
    with a promise not to do it again, turned to the safer and much more
    lucrative racket of dwindling suckers with religion. He founded a great
    church, but there is reason to believe that he didn’t give a damn what
    happened to it after he was dead and probably didn’t expect it to last.
    Smith, of course, was a man about whom we have a great deal of
    information, both about his life and about his doctrines, whereas we
    know nothing whatsoever about Jesus except the myths associated with
    his name, and these are so various, contradictory, and late that he is,
    for all practical purposes, a mythical figure, like Adonis or Mithra,
    even if there was a man by that name (as is likely) about whom the
    myths were assembled. If it were possible to ascertain who he was and
    what he did, it would not in the least matter if he were found to be a
    character no more admirable than Joseph Smith.

    R.P. Oliver, c.1984

  87. @rod1963
    Bunch of white neoliberals and bitter harpies promoting anti-family stupidity,

    What Ema Ostarcevic won't tell women, the corporate world demands it all from their employees (it's a meat grinder) and that "meaningful career" is basically a pile of steaming dung that comes at the cost of a young woman's best years striving to get up the ladder while sacrificing her children just so she can afford a new Lexus and that custom decorated home. If she's lucky she'll have a dead marriage where the kids never bonded to mom because she wasn't there during their formative years. If not she'll be a bitter old maid at 40 with nothing to look forward except a bottle of Xanax, Jim Beam after work and the occasional boy toy.

    And if you're lucky and reach retirement age - which most never will, within 5 minutes of retiring everyone will have forgotten about you and your health will be shot from enduring 40 years of bad food and endless stress in a Herman Miller cube farm. Yeah that's something to look forward to.

    That's the corporate life for most.

    I agree that the corporate world is pretty much souless and grinding. Especially if you’re on the management track.

    It’s not much better if you’re a man though. Work has never been fun, except maybe if you’re doing something like firefighting, pro sports, music, or acting.

  88. @Desiderius
    Maybe there's some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe...

    Not _that_ tribe.

    The original Mormons were mostly English-descended New York State farmers from the so-called “burned over district”, an upstate area famous for regular and severe bouts of odd religiosity and weird organizational formations. By the standards of the day, the Mormons weren’t even all that strange. They did pick up a fair number of Scandinavian and German immigrants as well as a few Scots-Irish along the way to Utah.

    Large families and the culling of Mother Nature produced a sturdy and reasonably intelligent gene pool, while the very stupid probably often never married and the very bright probably ‘boiled off’ at a higher than normal rate due to the sheer outrageousness of the Mormon theology and cosmology. (Except for Scientology and Urantia, a nuttier batch of spirit-batter is unimaginable, and Scientology for decades kept the really whacky stuff (OT III and up is where Xenu, Teegeeack and the rest come out IIRC) secret until after the marks were in for a great deal of money.)

    Mormon religion combines the best of science-fiction-fantasy teaching with a lot of supremely practical advice and working. It is actually very functional for those who can “believe” without having to actually believe, if you can understand that. And I think that’s what most intelligent Mormons actually do.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Yeah, they've got a nice thing going. And as a side effect, they get some good fantasy and science fiction writers. Poor Orson Scott Card, wrote one of the field's minor classics and then went off the reservation on gay marriage and got everyone after him.
    , @IBC
    Ironically, the two most important figures in Mormon history: Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, were both born in what's now the least religious state in the Union --Vermont.

    I actually worked in the lab of a Mormon evolutionary biologist. He maintained the attitude that science and religion were two separate things.
    , @Blair

    Mormon religion combines the best of science-fiction-fantasy teaching with a lot of supremely practical advice and working. It is actually very functional for those who can “believe” without having to actually believe, if you can understand that. And I think that’s what most intelligent Mormons actually do.
     
    I recall the black character in Ghostbusters saying to the receptionist regarding paranormal phenomena, "If there is a steady paycheck in it, I'll believe anything you say."

    My son's mormon friend aged 19 just married a 19 year old hot blonde girl. To say that my son was envious is a gross understatement.

    If you are a normal guy who wants a decent loving wife who is young and beautiful, I sure can see being willing to wear some cotton underwear and go sit through a service a few times a month. If you are Roissy and aren't into that, then no. But for the normal good beta guy, the mormon thing is a good deal. Far better than that same guy is getting elsewhere. He also gets a community that is loyal to him and his family. You can't put a price on that as I think we all know.
  89. @IBC
    Only about 59% of Salt Lake's population is Mormon and about 27% of residents don't consider themselves religious at all. About a third of the total population is "of color" if you don't separate out white Hispanics (as journalists almost never do).

    I lived in Salt Lake City a few years ago. There were lots of people there from Mexico and points further south, even some from Peru and Chile. Most of those people aren't Mormon (though I did meet a very cute Mexican girl giving tours at the Lion House) and some of them even place notes on their doors alerting Mormon missionaries that they "already have a religion." On the other hand, there are also lots of Polynesians, and many of them are LDS.

    Interestingly, in Utah I didn't notice the same level of labor segregation that seems to occur in many other parts of the US these days where immigration levels are high. Granted, the management ranks of many old Salt Lake and Utah-derived businesses are probably mostly comprised of white, LDS men, but there also seemed to be plenty of non-Hispanic whites doing more menial work that in other places would be almost exclusively Latino, and there're plenty of Latinos in Utah.


    “They said, ‘You’re an overweight, balding, middle-aged man,’” he recalls, arching his eyebrows in dismay.
     
    Yeah, overweight like a majority of Americans these days. Most people could control it to some extent, but some can't. Criticism could help or hurt. But baldness: unless someone wants to wear a wig or get a cosmetic procedure (x 10) done, losing one's hair isn't really a choice. Bald people are "born this way" and are just reverting back to their primeval form. Should "dusky" still be a put down? Remember that effective skin lightening creams are available (though a "dusky" person may have to travel to the D.R. or Kenya to purchase them). Being dusky is a choice; black people literally weren't "born this way." And middle-aged? Decades ago, people like Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin learned how to prevent middle age. But for the rest of us who don't yet do hard drugs and who value living more than we dislike aging, I guess there's always the Social Security Administration to save us from our shame.

    Note: Revlon's tagline -- "Because you're worth it," sounds a little like "#Black lives matter." Potential marketing tie-in? Any Dominican Revlon executives in this audience? I also liked that "work-a-daddies" line in your commentary Steve.

    One lesson I’ve learned in life is how important one’s physical attractiveness is in determing your social status. Especially these days, being good looking carries significant social (and sexual) benefits.

  90. @asdf
    Change Mormon to Muslim and would the Times be kvetching about some religion keeping the women down?

    There is NO rationale anymore. Designated target - Mormon. Done. 1984 - came a little late. Different vibe. The brainwashing was better than expected.

    Ooof, nice call. The Koran refers to a man’s role as the provider to women.

  91. I thought that maybe those jobs in Utah didn’t attract out of state applicants because they didn’t pay enough and so I searched for “wages below average Utah” at google and the first thing listed was this:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865628962/How-do-Utah-wages-stack-up-nationally.html?pg=all

    Utah ranks 37th out of the 50 states in terms of wages.

    Two thoughts: People are trying to get more of the women of Utah to work to beef up total family income (and the ability to buy more stuff) and to avoid paying higher wages.

    • Replies: @MC
    Yeah, but Utah has the 7th-lowest cost of living:

    http://www.bankrate.com/finance/retirement/best-places-retire-how-state-ranks.aspx

    14th-lowest wages and 7th-lowest cost of living means that in terms of purchasing power Utah wage earners are probably doing better than the U.S. average. State jobs there pay less than average, due to the Republican-dominated state government, but private-sector wages must do pretty well relative to COL.
  92. @Harold

    Why Utah Can’t Afford To Keep Its 1970s Gender Gaps
     
    So…what was the answer?

    Its economy is among the fastest growing and its unemployment rate is the sixth lowest. […] But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.
     
    I don’t follow.

    Women often find their aspirations stifled by what many in Salt Lake delicately refer to as “the culture.”
     
    “many”

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers. Though the state has the highest U.S. birth rate, it ranks 48th for affordability and availability of child care, according to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research in Washington. Paid maternity leave is rare.

    Women also are less represented on campuses, with Utah one of the few states where male students still outnumber female. Graduation rates at public institutions run almost 10 percentage points below the national average for women. All this leads to a grim gender wage gap: Working Utah women collect 70 cents for every dollar paid to men, again 48th in the country.

     

    None of which establishes that Utah women aspire to a career, and that such an aspiration is being stiffled.

    Many Utah women still find the long-held assumptions of their church and family daunting to overcome.

     

    “many”

    “The majority of my friends from high school are home with children,” says 29-year-old executive recruiter Ema Ostarcevic, who was born in Croatia and whose family isn’t Mormon. “I can count on one hand how many aren’t.”

     

    Maybe they don’t wish to overcome the long-held assumptions of their church and family.

    After five years at City Creek Center, Wardell now plans to make Utah her permanent home. She continues to marvel at the lack of ambition among even the brightest, college-educated female employees at the Salt Lake City outpost of her employer, mall owner and manager Taubman Co. Frustrated at how few imagine themselves moving beyond entry-level jobs, she sets aside time every week for one-on-one mentoring. “They either don’t see their potential or they just have never been taught to believe in themselves,” she says. Still, like Jones, Anderson and other institute backers, she’s confident Utah and its women are primed, finally, to catch up with the rest of the nation.

     

    They have the wrong aspirations! The long-held assumptions of their church and family must be overcome! (How ambitious are they towards finding a good husband?)

    Harold, sad that some woman don’t see raising a family as an ambition. My one daughter ended her career midstream in her early forties and adopted a child. I have never seen her more focused or happy.

  93. @iSteveFan

    Utah is `two generations’ behind U.S. in women’s metrics
    ....

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers. Though the state has the highest U.S. birth rate,
     

    And once Utah joins the rest of the US in this metric and its birth rate inevitably drops, the experts will tell them they are not having enough kids and must import third worlders to keep their labor supply growing to pay for the social safety net.

    iSteveFan, or we could go with the black demo, 72% single mothers, no man in the house and no problems…wait, that’s not working out too well.

  94. @notsaying
    I thought that maybe those jobs in Utah didn't attract out of state applicants because they didn't pay enough and so I searched for "wages below average Utah" at google and the first thing listed was this:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865628962/How-do-Utah-wages-stack-up-nationally.html?pg=all

    Utah ranks 37th out of the 50 states in terms of wages.

    Two thoughts: People are trying to get more of the women of Utah to work to beef up total family income (and the ability to buy more stuff) and to avoid paying higher wages.

    Yeah, but Utah has the 7th-lowest cost of living:

    http://www.bankrate.com/finance/retirement/best-places-retire-how-state-ranks.aspx

    14th-lowest wages and 7th-lowest cost of living means that in terms of purchasing power Utah wage earners are probably doing better than the U.S. average. State jobs there pay less than average, due to the Republican-dominated state government, but private-sector wages must do pretty well relative to COL.

  95. You know, if a species of animal in captivity isn’t reproducing itself to sustain its population, we say this is unnatural and wrong, something must be seriously wrong with its environment. Among humans, it’s the opposite.

    • Agree: Travis
  96. Bloomberg speak with forked tongue. Let me translate this into colloquial English for you. Women don’t work in Utah, and stay home and make babies that aren’t Brown. This is very bad for guys like Bloomberg. They must realize being happy at home doesn’t lead to what we tell them they want. They must leave home and enter the job market, stealing jobs from men so they can’t find wives and dysgenically destroy America. Because it never worked before, but guys like Bloomberg have no imagination like his cousins in Hollywood so he does the same thing over and over again.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    Oh, it works fine for Bloomberg and his cousins.

    It works not at all for those of us these creatures are in competition with, deploying as they do their signature brand of victimization, greed, guilt-flogging, hysteria over their (largely fantasized/exaggerated) victimization, and neurosis-projection.

  97. Related to this post (and your previous one about 1960’s feminism), a 2011 Salon article: “Why I can’t stop reading Mormon housewife blogs”. Excerpt:

    At first glance, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz appear to be members of the species known as the “Hipster Mommy Blogger,” though perhaps a bit more cheerful and wholesome than most. They have bangs like Zooey Deschanel and closets full of cool vintage dresses. Their houses look like Anthropologie catalogs. Their kids look like Baby Gap models. Their husbands look like young graphic designers, all cute lumberjack shirts and square-framed glasses. They spend their days doing fun craft projects (vintage-y owl throw pillow! Recycled button earrings! Hand-stamped linen napkins!). They spend their weekends throwing big, whimsical dinner parties for their friends, all of whom have equally adorable kids and husbands.

    But as you page through their blog archives, you notice certain “tells.” They’re super-young (like, four-kids-at-29 young). They mention relatives in Utah. They drink a suspicious amount of hot chocolate. Finally, you see it: a subtly placed widget with a picture of a temple, or a hyperlink on the word “faith” or “belief.” You click the link and up pops the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    Yep, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz are Mormons. They’re members of a large, close-knit network of Mormon lifestyle bloggers — young stay-at-home-moms who blog about home and hearth, Latter-day Saint-style. From Rockstar Diaries (Naomi) to Underaged and Engaged (Stacie) to Nie Nie Dialogues (Stephanie) to Say Yes to Hoboken (Liz), Mormon lifestyle bloggers occupy their very own corner of the blogosphere.

    Their lives are nothing like mine — I’m your standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist — yet I’m completely obsessed with their blogs.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Wholesomeness used to be a more widely-recognized virtue.

    I have to admit a certain joy in learning that the Mormon blogs have a following at Salon. Who knows what else they read when in the solitude of their bedchamber, perhaps Unz columnists?
    , @Mr. Anon
    "Their lives are nothing like mine — I’m your standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist — yet I’m completely obsessed with their blogs."

    It would be interesting to see her reaction to these blogs when she is a late-40-something childless overeducated atheist feminist.
    , @LKM
    That article was written in 2011, but the experience may have had a long-term impact on its author, Emily Matchar who recently authored this book:

    Homeward Bound: Why Women Are Embracing the New Domesticity
    http://www.amazon.com/Homeward-Bound-Women-Embracing-Domesticity/dp/1451665458

    Interestingly, the Mormon mommy-blog fan identifies herself as a "standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist", but for the purposes of this article, neglects to identify herself as (ethnically) Jewish, which she did for another Salon article a few years later:

    http://www.salon.com/2013/12/24/my_atheist_christmas_in_china/

    The latter describes how even though she's an atheist, she couldn't bring herself to celebrate Christmas, even as a cultural celebration, due to the Christian connection, much to the dismay of her lapsed Christian husband, who couldn't figure out why she wouldn't celebrate it in the same way she celebrates Jewish holidays. This changed when she moved to China, where Christmas is completely separated from any religious connotation.

    So Emily Matchar is an over-educated atheist feminist Jew who frets about doing anything that may be construed as Christian but married a goyish philosophy professor and thinks an awful lot about female domesticity. I can't help but feel this dovetails somewhat with Steve's earlier post about Jewish women and feminism.
  98. @Harold
    I already alerted Unz to the italics issue at the latest announcement post. Maybe he hasn’t seen it. I could send an email but I don’t have an email address and am too lazy to create one. Maybe if you say Unz’s name three times he turns up and fixes bugs: Ron Unz, Ron Unz, Ron Unz. Or maybe it’s aready on his to do list.

    Are you saying Ron Unz is a benevolent form of Hastur? I think Brian Lumley did create ‘good’ versions of all the Cthulhu Mythos deities.

  99. @Desiderius
    Maybe there's some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe...

    It is part of Mormon theology, as I recall. Thus ‘gentile’ for non-Mormons. There was at least one case of a Jewish guy in the early days of Utah who used this to his advantage, but I don’t remember the details.

  100. @timpleworthy linceum
    Not _that_ tribe.

    The original Mormons were mostly English-descended New York State farmers from the so-called "burned over district", an upstate area famous for regular and severe bouts of odd religiosity and weird organizational formations. By the standards of the day, the Mormons weren't even all that strange. They did pick up a fair number of Scandinavian and German immigrants as well as a few Scots-Irish along the way to Utah.

    Large families and the culling of Mother Nature produced a sturdy and reasonably intelligent gene pool, while the very stupid probably often never married and the very bright probably 'boiled off' at a higher than normal rate due to the sheer outrageousness of the Mormon theology and cosmology. (Except for Scientology and Urantia, a nuttier batch of spirit-batter is unimaginable, and Scientology for decades kept the really whacky stuff (OT III and up is where Xenu, Teegeeack and the rest come out IIRC) secret until after the marks were in for a great deal of money.)

    Mormon religion combines the best of science-fiction-fantasy teaching with a lot of supremely practical advice and working. It is actually very functional for those who can "believe" without having to actually believe, if you can understand that. And I think that's what most intelligent Mormons actually do.

    Yeah, they’ve got a nice thing going. And as a side effect, they get some good fantasy and science fiction writers. Poor Orson Scott Card, wrote one of the field’s minor classics and then went off the reservation on gay marriage and got everyone after him.

  101. @Twinkie

    Only about 59% of Salt Lake’s population is Mormon
     
    "Only"?

    By the way, SLC's crime statistics are interesting. Between 2001 and 2013, the murder rate plummeted by over 60%, but the rape rate skyrocketed by 60%. And this has occurred while the national average rape rate has been falling slightly. SLC, as of 2013, has a rape rate that is over four times (!) the national average.

    It looks like that’s due to a change in legal definitions:

    http://universe.byu.edu/2014/11/12/violent-crime-is-low-in-utah-overall-but-rape-rates-are-high/

    When I lived in SLC, there was a problem with smashed car windows, petty theft, and begging in certain areas. I think this was partly thanks to drug abuse because I also noticed quite a few destitute-looking people (all white), who judging by their skin, may have been meth addicts. I did hear reports of knife fights among some of the Polynesians and was advised to be careful in some parts of town after dark. In some ways, Salt Lake City has a kind of communitarian feel to it. But for those who reject the Church and find themselves hard up, it’s more like the Wild West with 24-hour bail bond offices, pawn shops, and incredibly seedy motels. Salt Lake City has one of the nicest public libraries (main branch) that I’ve ever been in. But inside, there were the same sort of homeless-looking (and smelling) people that one can find in other big cities across the country.

    I’d guess that towns like Provo (where BYU is) are more consistently spick and span, both physically and culturally. In contrast, Park City used to be known for being the opposite of a Mormon town. For several years in the 19th century, they supposedly had more whore houses than churches. And nowadays, the demographic mix there of wealthy Hollywood types and Mexican service workers, is also pretty un-Saintly. It’d be interesting to see how it compares with “sexist but equal” Ogden.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    It looks like that’s due to a change in legal definitions
     
    I suspect not. That is the standard response of every jurisdiction that has experienced increases in rape. It also does not explain why SLC has over four times the national average of rape as of 2013.

    Wouldn't have anything to do with the dramatic rise in Hispanic population there during the same period, would it?
  102. @Richard

    This is the same “culture”, by the way, that made theirs the first church to endorse women’s suffrage and the only one to do so unanimously. Leaving aside New Jersey’s accidental suffrage of the 1790s, Utah just missed by months being the first polity in the world to give women an equal vote. That was in 1870.
     
    There was an ulterior motive to that. Mormons, consciously imitating the Biblical Exodus, tended to immigrate to Utah and other places with their whole families. Non-Mormons going out West were usually single men without a significant social network. Thus, giving women the vote greatly favored Mormon political control wherever that group had a significant presence, especially since Mormons in the 19th century usually voted as a bloc for whomever their religious leaders told them to (one of the big reasons why they became unpopular in Joseph Smith's day).

    Well, duh.

    That was their version of Dixie’s three-fifths rule– inflate and conquer. The male population was evenly divided; the adult population, heavily Mormon.

    Even the Quakers, Unitarians and other “liberal” sects had internal debates about the issue. Not Mormons. They were lockstep in favor. Bill Kauffman wrote sympathetically about the (mostly female) antisuffragists, and quoted one who cracked, “Not every suffragist is a Mormon, but every Mormon is a suffragist.”

  103. @fnn

    I imagine the children will show the benefits of having a mother at home, rather than at some job of less importance than rearing your own children.
     
    Well, HBD blogger Jayman has a ton of evidence showing that there are no benefits. It might be better for community cohesion, but you're going to have that anyway with a whole bunch of Mormons.

    Well, HBD blogger Jayman has a ton of evidence showing that there are no benefits

    If there are “no benefits”, how come my family is happier that way. Far happier.

    Lies, damned lies, and statistics? Or are we the deluded ones?

  104. @timpleworthy linceum
    Not _that_ tribe.

    The original Mormons were mostly English-descended New York State farmers from the so-called "burned over district", an upstate area famous for regular and severe bouts of odd religiosity and weird organizational formations. By the standards of the day, the Mormons weren't even all that strange. They did pick up a fair number of Scandinavian and German immigrants as well as a few Scots-Irish along the way to Utah.

    Large families and the culling of Mother Nature produced a sturdy and reasonably intelligent gene pool, while the very stupid probably often never married and the very bright probably 'boiled off' at a higher than normal rate due to the sheer outrageousness of the Mormon theology and cosmology. (Except for Scientology and Urantia, a nuttier batch of spirit-batter is unimaginable, and Scientology for decades kept the really whacky stuff (OT III and up is where Xenu, Teegeeack and the rest come out IIRC) secret until after the marks were in for a great deal of money.)

    Mormon religion combines the best of science-fiction-fantasy teaching with a lot of supremely practical advice and working. It is actually very functional for those who can "believe" without having to actually believe, if you can understand that. And I think that's what most intelligent Mormons actually do.

    Ironically, the two most important figures in Mormon history: Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, were both born in what’s now the least religious state in the Union –Vermont.

    I actually worked in the lab of a Mormon evolutionary biologist. He maintained the attitude that science and religion were two separate things.

  105. @Alice in Wanderland

    Utah is `two generations’ behind U.S. in women’s metrics
     
    And two generations behind in wealth inequality?

    And two generations behind in illegitimacy rates?

    And two generations behind in white family decimation?

    And targeted by NYC Bloomberg for destruction.

    Coincidence?

    Maybe not.

    And two generations behind in wealth inequality?

    And two generations behind in illegitimacy rates?

    And two generations behind in white family decimation?

    And targeted by NYC Bloomberg for destruction.

    Prepare for Camp of the Latter-Day Saints.

  106. @Chief Seattle
    Of course Utah makes the elites nervous. It's 90+% white, heavily religious, heavily traditional, and fecund. And prosperous. And they never even had slaves. It rebukes everything the narrative tells us is true about modern life.

    Expect the elites to be all over this one like 1960s Philip Morris on a study that says smoking causes cancer.

    Expect the elites to be all over this one like 1960s Philip Morris on a study that says smoking causes cancer.

    Hey, wait… I thought those “studies” were a Yankee plot to keep the South down. Are you saying they have validity? Paging Svigor…

  107. Mormonism has been rotting for the last few decades. Still somewhat socially conservative but they’re increasingly aggressive about promoting race-mixing. It’s not uncommon for Mormon men to come back from their missions with non-white wives. The church encourages this stuff too. Look at Mormon promotions and they’re full of mixed-race couples. Mormons need to get their act together or they’re going to be a yellow-brown multicult hell like the rest of America. Sad, because Mormonism used to be explicitly ethno-nationalist. The brainwashing of white people is present everywhere.

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "Mormonism has been rotting for the last few decades. Still somewhat socially conservative but they’re increasingly aggressive about promoting race-mixing."

    Mormon leaders just want to be liked, and the bit about promoting interracial marriage is about making up for being on the "wrong" side of social issues like civil rights and gay marriage. The LDS Church is also a huge supporter of mass immigration/amnesty, but that's because a lot of prominent church businessmen want them to support mass immigration. LDS missionaries also happen to do a lot better among Third World populations than among whites. The Mormon blogger phenomenon is also a missionary act. The LDS Church encourages its members to blog - including sharing embarrassingly large amounts of personal info - in order to promote the faith.

    But while the LDS Church is rotting institutionally, the traditional values it encourages among its members are exactly what this and every other country needs. There is a very strong effort by SJW types to turn the church into yet another Leftist institution pushing all the wrong causes and beliefs. One hopes they won't win, but fears they might. All the evidence, however, points to the fact that churches that embrace the SJW worldview only shrink faster than those that don't - and the church probably realizes that.
  108. OT (file it under ‘electing a new people’)

    CDU Politiker–Asylkritiker können dieses Land jederzeit verlassen

    German politician tells Germans who disagree with Merkel’s asylum policies they can leave the country whenever they want. Same video on youtube — at approx 35s.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Brazil should encourage Germans to move there. Brazil already has long-standing German cities like Joinville and Blumenau in its Santa Catarina state, and with the Brazilian real in the doldrums, it's not a bad time to convert euros to it.
  109. to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Pretty good but maybe not great.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society… Musicians?
     
    Leigh Harline, a Swedish Mormon from Utah, composed what became Disney's theme, When You Wish Upon a Star.

    Of course, Walt had a way of squeezing memorable tunes from near-nobodies, so I may be damning with faint praise.
    , @Honesthughgrant

    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?
     
    What an amusing comment. Their newspapers are as good as any. Their colleges are good. Musicians? You gotta be kidding me. The Mississippi delta has given us more great musicians per capita then anywhere. You wanna go there and be a sharecropper?

    Politicians? Like who Clinton or Obama?

    Tech companies? You probably could have plenty of tech companies in Utah if the US had put most of its R&D defense contractors in Salt Lake city instead of SF Bay area in the 50s and 60s.
    , @Studley
    America's greatest economist, as of 2015, Tyler Cowen, utilises speed reading. Whence invented? Well, by the Woods. A nice Utah husband and wife.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Wood_(teacher)

    He can't see (Cowen) that Mexicans did not invent this. Though he can observe that South Americans don't read books in airport lounges while waiting to board.

    Ye olde English surnames like Romney, Marriott, Huntsman, and Wood, out in Utah. Obviously interchangeable with Mexicans and others from parts wherever.

    Whatever Cowen thinks.
  110. @Mr. Anon
    "Packing certain types of professional schooling with women has in fact been a complete disaster, such as veterinary schools-that’s why large animal vets are in serious shortage."

    That's an interesting take, which I hadn't considered. I suppose most women who go into veterinary medicine want to take care of cute fluffy little animals. To be fair, the demand for those services has probably increased; a lot of people take much better care of their pets than they used do.

    Another area where the presence of women has not improved things: engineering. By and large, women don't make good engineers. They are far less likely than men to care about things and how they work. The net effect of increasing the number of woman engineers is to decrease the actual amount of engineering that gets done.

    My sister dreamed of being a veterinarian ever since she entered her horsey phase at age 12. (Do girls still do that, or is noticing frowned upon?)

    Her professors dissuaded her by pointing out the obvious problem of small human stature versus large equines. Nowadays, they would be hounded out of teaching for uttering such dream-crushing common sense. She respected their advice and still loves horses, just not as a large animal vet.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    There are plenty of women working as horse vets, horse trainers, etc. Also lots of small statured men. Jockeys are tiny.

    Human stature doesn't really offer much protection with horses. Accidents happen regardless of your size. Christopher Reeve was 6'4" and was paralyzed after getting tossed from a horse.
  111. OT-

    I listen to NPR a fair bit and its pretty clear that NPR and its well funded endowments are pushing the immigration propaganda into overdrive.

    http://www.npr.org/2015/10/14/448681982/the-immigrants-it-once-shut-out-bring-new-life-to-pennsylvania-town

    Latest I heard was this piece about the immigrant nirvana known as Hazleton, Pennsylvania. In the last decade, the town has become roughly 40% Latino. In the same period, the crime rate has skyrocketed, but NPR believes the “dark times” were due to overzealous anti-immigration rhetoric from local politicians. Allegedly, Hazelton economy is booming because of immigration, but the unemployment rate is strangely at an unhealthy rate of 8.8%.

    It’s a main street transformed. Reggaeton music pours from bodegas. Bustling Mexican restaurants compete with pizzerias. And Spanish mixes fluidly with English to create a Hazleton Spanglish.

    My guess is that national NPR listeners do not send their children to the Hazleton Public School District or spend much time twerking to the Reggaeton blasting on Main Street.

    Some 1965 Immigration Act coverage. Actually quotes Ann Coulter.

    http://www.npr.org/2015/10/03/445339838/the-unintended-consequences-of-the-1965-immigration-act

  112. @Dave Pinsen
    Related to this post (and your previous one about 1960's feminism), a 2011 Salon article: "Why I can’t stop reading Mormon housewife blogs". Excerpt:

    At first glance, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz appear to be members of the species known as the “Hipster Mommy Blogger,” though perhaps a bit more cheerful and wholesome than most. They have bangs like Zooey Deschanel and closets full of cool vintage dresses. Their houses look like Anthropologie catalogs. Their kids look like Baby Gap models. Their husbands look like young graphic designers, all cute lumberjack shirts and square-framed glasses. They spend their days doing fun craft projects (vintage-y owl throw pillow! Recycled button earrings! Hand-stamped linen napkins!). They spend their weekends throwing big, whimsical dinner parties for their friends, all of whom have equally adorable kids and husbands.

    But as you page through their blog archives, you notice certain “tells.” They’re super-young (like, four-kids-at-29 young). They mention relatives in Utah. They drink a suspicious amount of hot chocolate. Finally, you see it: a subtly placed widget with a picture of a temple, or a hyperlink on the word “faith” or “belief.” You click the link and up pops the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    Yep, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz are Mormons. They’re members of a large, close-knit network of Mormon lifestyle bloggers — young stay-at-home-moms who blog about home and hearth, Latter-day Saint-style. From Rockstar Diaries (Naomi) to Underaged and Engaged (Stacie) to Nie Nie Dialogues (Stephanie) to Say Yes to Hoboken (Liz), Mormon lifestyle bloggers occupy their very own corner of the blogosphere.

    Their lives are nothing like mine — I’m your standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist — yet I’m completely obsessed with their blogs.
     

    Wholesomeness used to be a more widely-recognized virtue.

    I have to admit a certain joy in learning that the Mormon blogs have a following at Salon. Who knows what else they read when in the solitude of their bedchamber, perhaps Unz columnists?

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Check out the top comment there.
  113. @Ivy
    My sister dreamed of being a veterinarian ever since she entered her horsey phase at age 12. (Do girls still do that, or is noticing frowned upon?)

    Her professors dissuaded her by pointing out the obvious problem of small human stature versus large equines. Nowadays, they would be hounded out of teaching for uttering such dream-crushing common sense. She respected their advice and still loves horses, just not as a large animal vet.

    There are plenty of women working as horse vets, horse trainers, etc. Also lots of small statured men. Jockeys are tiny.

    Human stature doesn’t really offer much protection with horses. Accidents happen regardless of your size. Christopher Reeve was 6’4″ and was paralyzed after getting tossed from a horse.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Neither male nor female humans can physically overpower a horse, but the strength and ruggedness of the male body is still a big advantage in dealing with a horse, or cow, or what have you. Female vets work with large animals much less often than with dogs and cats, and those who do tend to retire or switch to small animals relatively early in their careers. The numbers are well known.

    Being a jockey and being a horse vet are two very different things. Jockeys are small and light so the horse can run faster in a race. Large animal vets, in my admittedly limited experience, tend to be big beefy guys who played football in college and aren't afraid to jump on top of the beast or occasionally give one a good smack if needed to deter it from kicking or stomping them.

    This phenomenon is one I've heard about from farmers and horsepeople for years, but the vet schools won't budge on their admissions process nor will they simply train more vets total or reduce the ridiculous requirement for an eight year total program. And of course state legislatures are as useless in curbing their racket as they are with the doctors, dentists, optometrists and pillcops.

    (In the Navy, for instance, Hospital Corpsmen with high school educations and one to two years of training do the work of optometrists, much of the work of dispensing pharmacists, and in some cases things that would be done by RN's, physicians' assistants or nurse practitioners, even in some instances doctors themselves.)
  114. @Ivy
    Wholesomeness used to be a more widely-recognized virtue.

    I have to admit a certain joy in learning that the Mormon blogs have a following at Salon. Who knows what else they read when in the solitude of their bedchamber, perhaps Unz columnists?

    Check out the top comment there.

  115. But with unemployment of just 3.7 percent in August and job growth of 4 percent a year, Utah can no longer afford to keep half of its population underemployed.

    That would be just the opposite. With those stats, Utah is primed for large-scale social spending. But ‘afford’ does not mean having enough money to Laura. I am not really sure what it means to her. Perhaps it means ‘We cannot afford to let this opportunity pass us by”, which doesn’t mean anything either.

  116. @officious intermeddler

    Utah ranks last in the U.S. for the percentage of mothers with young children in the labor force, at 52.8 percent. That’s 42.7 percentage points — the biggest gap in the nation — behind working fathers.
     
    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work, the highest percentage in the country. Another catastrophe for women's equality!

    The article doesn't mention yet another factor that drags down Utah's women: Only 15% of the births in Utah are to unwed mothers, the lowest figure in the country, compared to an average nationwide of 36%.

    Women will never be free as long as men insist on marrying them and working to support their children.

    Meaning that 95.5% of married fathers with young fathers with children work,

    No, it doesn’t mean that. It means that 95.5% of *all* fathers work, and presumably a higher percentage of married fathers do.

  117. @maj
    Is the Eye of Soros now turning its hideous gaze to Mormonism?

    Utah, you had a nice 150 year run, but now the time has come to destroy the last remaining bits of America that have been mistakenly allowed to have nice things. A pity, really, but eventually all must be dragged, willingly or no, over to the right side of history.

    Utah, you had a nice 150 year run, but now the time has come to destroy the last remaining bits of America that have been mistakenly allowed to have nice things.

    Right. The Left fosters entropy.

  118. @Bill Jones
    The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn't to help the natives, it's to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.

    The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn’t to help the natives, it’s to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.

    I’ve never heard anyone say anything like that. But it’s believable.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Except they don't just get sent to hellholes. Mitt Romney got sent to France. I knew a Mormon who got sent to Japan.
  119. @Dave Pinsen
    There are plenty of women working as horse vets, horse trainers, etc. Also lots of small statured men. Jockeys are tiny.

    Human stature doesn't really offer much protection with horses. Accidents happen regardless of your size. Christopher Reeve was 6'4" and was paralyzed after getting tossed from a horse.

    Neither male nor female humans can physically overpower a horse, but the strength and ruggedness of the male body is still a big advantage in dealing with a horse, or cow, or what have you. Female vets work with large animals much less often than with dogs and cats, and those who do tend to retire or switch to small animals relatively early in their careers. The numbers are well known.

    Being a jockey and being a horse vet are two very different things. Jockeys are small and light so the horse can run faster in a race. Large animal vets, in my admittedly limited experience, tend to be big beefy guys who played football in college and aren’t afraid to jump on top of the beast or occasionally give one a good smack if needed to deter it from kicking or stomping them.

    This phenomenon is one I’ve heard about from farmers and horsepeople for years, but the vet schools won’t budge on their admissions process nor will they simply train more vets total or reduce the ridiculous requirement for an eight year total program. And of course state legislatures are as useless in curbing their racket as they are with the doctors, dentists, optometrists and pillcops.

    (In the Navy, for instance, Hospital Corpsmen with high school educations and one to two years of training do the work of optometrists, much of the work of dispensing pharmacists, and in some cases things that would be done by RN’s, physicians’ assistants or nurse practitioners, even in some instances doctors themselves.)

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    If the numbers are "well known", feel free to provide them. My anecdotal experience differs from yours. My mother has owned a small horse farm for years, and her current horse vet is a woman, as were most of her previous ones. I have never heard of a horse vet switching to small animals. In the past, I asked my mother to have the horse vet look at one of the barn cats, and she refused to ask her, as if it would be insulting to an equine vet.

    All of the helpers who handle the horses, clean stalls, etc., are women. Even the person who removes dead horses - I don't know if there is an official title for that job - is a woman.

    All of the farriers have been men though.
  120. @ben tillman

    The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn’t to help the natives, it’s to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.
     
    I've never heard anyone say anything like that. But it's believable.

    Except they don’t just get sent to hellholes. Mitt Romney got sent to France. I knew a Mormon who got sent to Japan.

  121. @Dave Pinsen
    Related to this post (and your previous one about 1960's feminism), a 2011 Salon article: "Why I can’t stop reading Mormon housewife blogs". Excerpt:

    At first glance, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz appear to be members of the species known as the “Hipster Mommy Blogger,” though perhaps a bit more cheerful and wholesome than most. They have bangs like Zooey Deschanel and closets full of cool vintage dresses. Their houses look like Anthropologie catalogs. Their kids look like Baby Gap models. Their husbands look like young graphic designers, all cute lumberjack shirts and square-framed glasses. They spend their days doing fun craft projects (vintage-y owl throw pillow! Recycled button earrings! Hand-stamped linen napkins!). They spend their weekends throwing big, whimsical dinner parties for their friends, all of whom have equally adorable kids and husbands.

    But as you page through their blog archives, you notice certain “tells.” They’re super-young (like, four-kids-at-29 young). They mention relatives in Utah. They drink a suspicious amount of hot chocolate. Finally, you see it: a subtly placed widget with a picture of a temple, or a hyperlink on the word “faith” or “belief.” You click the link and up pops the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    Yep, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz are Mormons. They’re members of a large, close-knit network of Mormon lifestyle bloggers — young stay-at-home-moms who blog about home and hearth, Latter-day Saint-style. From Rockstar Diaries (Naomi) to Underaged and Engaged (Stacie) to Nie Nie Dialogues (Stephanie) to Say Yes to Hoboken (Liz), Mormon lifestyle bloggers occupy their very own corner of the blogosphere.

    Their lives are nothing like mine — I’m your standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist — yet I’m completely obsessed with their blogs.
     

    “Their lives are nothing like mine — I’m your standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist — yet I’m completely obsessed with their blogs.”

    It would be interesting to see her reaction to these blogs when she is a late-40-something childless overeducated atheist feminist.

    • Agree: Dave Pinsen
  122. @Justin
    Mormonism has been rotting for the last few decades. Still somewhat socially conservative but they're increasingly aggressive about promoting race-mixing. It's not uncommon for Mormon men to come back from their missions with non-white wives. The church encourages this stuff too. Look at Mormon promotions and they're full of mixed-race couples. Mormons need to get their act together or they're going to be a yellow-brown multicult hell like the rest of America. Sad, because Mormonism used to be explicitly ethno-nationalist. The brainwashing of white people is present everywhere.

    “Mormonism has been rotting for the last few decades. Still somewhat socially conservative but they’re increasingly aggressive about promoting race-mixing.”

    Mormon leaders just want to be liked, and the bit about promoting interracial marriage is about making up for being on the “wrong” side of social issues like civil rights and gay marriage. The LDS Church is also a huge supporter of mass immigration/amnesty, but that’s because a lot of prominent church businessmen want them to support mass immigration. LDS missionaries also happen to do a lot better among Third World populations than among whites. The Mormon blogger phenomenon is also a missionary act. The LDS Church encourages its members to blog – including sharing embarrassingly large amounts of personal info – in order to promote the faith.

    But while the LDS Church is rotting institutionally, the traditional values it encourages among its members are exactly what this and every other country needs. There is a very strong effort by SJW types to turn the church into yet another Leftist institution pushing all the wrong causes and beliefs. One hopes they won’t win, but fears they might. All the evidence, however, points to the fact that churches that embrace the SJW worldview only shrink faster than those that don’t – and the church probably realizes that.

  123. @Steve Richter
    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?

    Pretty good but maybe not great.

  124. @Twinkie

    Maybe there’s some strange truth to the belief that they descended from a lost tribe of the Tribe…
     
    What tribe is that? The lost 13th tribe of the upper Northeast Yankees?

    What tribe is that? The lost 13th tribe of the upper Northeast Yankees?

    If you’re at all a fan of Mormons, as I am with some serious reservations, you may not want to delve too deeply into their founding beliefs.

    If you do, you’ll find, yes, the Tribe, complete with Urim and Thummim, et. al.

    Steve’s characterization of their behavior I was responding too suggests that the apple didn’t fall far from that putative tree.

  125. @Dr. Doom
    Bloomberg speak with forked tongue. Let me translate this into colloquial English for you. Women don't work in Utah, and stay home and make babies that aren't Brown. This is very bad for guys like Bloomberg. They must realize being happy at home doesn't lead to what we tell them they want. They must leave home and enter the job market, stealing jobs from men so they can't find wives and dysgenically destroy America. Because it never worked before, but guys like Bloomberg have no imagination like his cousins in Hollywood so he does the same thing over and over again.

    Oh, it works fine for Bloomberg and his cousins.

    It works not at all for those of us these creatures are in competition with, deploying as they do their signature brand of victimization, greed, guilt-flogging, hysteria over their (largely fantasized/exaggerated) victimization, and neurosis-projection.

  126. @Bill Jones
    The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn't to help the natives, it's to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.

    “The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn’t to help the natives, it’s to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home.”

    Yeah, a big part of the mission experience is that it serves to reinforce the faith of those who go. It’s an experience young Mormon men (and many women) can be told to look forward to. Then, once they’re off the mission, in a culture that frowns upon premarital sex, they can be pushed straight into marriage, ideally leaving them as little time as possible to question the faith. That’s great for helping to boost the birthrates but also reduces the impact Mormons have on the culture – fewer Mormons with lots of time on their hands to form bands, write plays, try to make it in Hollywood, etc.

    But missions are also about winning converts. Converts in the First World are becoming harder and harder to get, in large part because of all the information available about the real history of the church. Ask any Mormon who served in a First World mission how many new members they baptized, and the answer is likely to be two or less – for a two year mission. That’s why an increasingly large share of US missionaries learn Spanish before leaving the training center.

    • Replies: @MC
    "Converts in the First World are becoming harder and harder to get, in large part because of all the information available about the real history of the church."

    There are fewer conversions in the First World, but that's a trend that long predates the internet or any other plausible mechanism for making "more information available about the real history of the church." The fact is that the whole First World is in a long-term cycle of secularization. Mormons have manifestly weathered that better than most other churches, which suggests that the weird history isn't really the operative force that everyone thinks it is.
  127. @eah
    OT (file it under 'electing a new people')

    CDU Politiker--Asylkritiker können dieses Land jederzeit verlassen

    German politician tells Germans who disagree with Merkel's asylum policies they can leave the country whenever they want. Same video on youtube -- at approx 35s.

    Brazil should encourage Germans to move there. Brazil already has long-standing German cities like Joinville and Blumenau in its Santa Catarina state, and with the Brazilian real in the doldrums, it’s not a bad time to convert euros to it.

    • Replies: @eah
    The Costa Verde in the SE of Brazil -- away from Rio and Sao Paulo -- would not be a bad destination:

    Costa Verde, Brazil

    , @Reg Cæsar

    Brazil should encourage Germans to move there.
     
    The world needs more Gisele Bündchens. And Astrud Gilberto's, too.
  128. @Former Darfur
    Neither male nor female humans can physically overpower a horse, but the strength and ruggedness of the male body is still a big advantage in dealing with a horse, or cow, or what have you. Female vets work with large animals much less often than with dogs and cats, and those who do tend to retire or switch to small animals relatively early in their careers. The numbers are well known.

    Being a jockey and being a horse vet are two very different things. Jockeys are small and light so the horse can run faster in a race. Large animal vets, in my admittedly limited experience, tend to be big beefy guys who played football in college and aren't afraid to jump on top of the beast or occasionally give one a good smack if needed to deter it from kicking or stomping them.

    This phenomenon is one I've heard about from farmers and horsepeople for years, but the vet schools won't budge on their admissions process nor will they simply train more vets total or reduce the ridiculous requirement for an eight year total program. And of course state legislatures are as useless in curbing their racket as they are with the doctors, dentists, optometrists and pillcops.

    (In the Navy, for instance, Hospital Corpsmen with high school educations and one to two years of training do the work of optometrists, much of the work of dispensing pharmacists, and in some cases things that would be done by RN's, physicians' assistants or nurse practitioners, even in some instances doctors themselves.)

    If the numbers are “well known”, feel free to provide them. My anecdotal experience differs from yours. My mother has owned a small horse farm for years, and her current horse vet is a woman, as were most of her previous ones. I have never heard of a horse vet switching to small animals. In the past, I asked my mother to have the horse vet look at one of the barn cats, and she refused to ask her, as if it would be insulting to an equine vet.

    All of the helpers who handle the horses, clean stalls, etc., are women. Even the person who removes dead horses – I don’t know if there is an official title for that job – is a woman.

    All of the farriers have been men though.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    "the person who removes dead horses – I don’t know if there is an official title for that job"

    In the UK the person is the knacker. He takes old or dead horses to the "knacker's yard".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knacker

    "I'm knackered" in Britain means "I'm really tired/worn out", "it's knackered" or "it's knacked" means "it's broken".
  129. @anon
    The Mormon church lays out a division of labor “by divine design” — men are providers; women are nurturers. Once children arrive, mothers tend to quit school or work.

    My God, won't somebody think of the children?!?

    Wait a minute, wait a minute...

    Whatever you do, don't think of the children! Please don't think of the children, everybody!

    Haha! I must remember that one.

  130. @IBC
    Only about 59% of Salt Lake's population is Mormon and about 27% of residents don't consider themselves religious at all. About a third of the total population is "of color" if you don't separate out white Hispanics (as journalists almost never do).

    I lived in Salt Lake City a few years ago. There were lots of people there from Mexico and points further south, even some from Peru and Chile. Most of those people aren't Mormon (though I did meet a very cute Mexican girl giving tours at the Lion House) and some of them even place notes on their doors alerting Mormon missionaries that they "already have a religion." On the other hand, there are also lots of Polynesians, and many of them are LDS.

    Interestingly, in Utah I didn't notice the same level of labor segregation that seems to occur in many other parts of the US these days where immigration levels are high. Granted, the management ranks of many old Salt Lake and Utah-derived businesses are probably mostly comprised of white, LDS men, but there also seemed to be plenty of non-Hispanic whites doing more menial work that in other places would be almost exclusively Latino, and there're plenty of Latinos in Utah.


    “They said, ‘You’re an overweight, balding, middle-aged man,’” he recalls, arching his eyebrows in dismay.
     
    Yeah, overweight like a majority of Americans these days. Most people could control it to some extent, but some can't. Criticism could help or hurt. But baldness: unless someone wants to wear a wig or get a cosmetic procedure (x 10) done, losing one's hair isn't really a choice. Bald people are "born this way" and are just reverting back to their primeval form. Should "dusky" still be a put down? Remember that effective skin lightening creams are available (though a "dusky" person may have to travel to the D.R. or Kenya to purchase them). Being dusky is a choice; black people literally weren't "born this way." And middle-aged? Decades ago, people like Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin learned how to prevent middle age. But for the rest of us who don't yet do hard drugs and who value living more than we dislike aging, I guess there's always the Social Security Administration to save us from our shame.

    Note: Revlon's tagline -- "Because you're worth it," sounds a little like "#Black lives matter." Potential marketing tie-in? Any Dominican Revlon executives in this audience? I also liked that "work-a-daddies" line in your commentary Steve.

    But baldness: unless someone wants to wear a wig or get a cosmetic procedure (x 10) done, losing one’s hair isn’t really a choice. Bald people are “born this way” and are just reverting back to their primeval form.

    Minoxidil and Finasteride are both cheap and proven to work and with minimal side-effects, whatever a few hypercondriacs says.

    They’re like steroids. All of Hollywood is on them but no-one wants to admit it, because admitting it means that they lose a signficant part of the social value of their ‘natural’ good looks.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Jason Statham probably isn't. Bruce Willis. Patrick Stewart.

    However, they would have been too far gone to recover by the time those were discovered.

    And you forgot le Niz!
  131. @Dave Pinsen
    Brazil should encourage Germans to move there. Brazil already has long-standing German cities like Joinville and Blumenau in its Santa Catarina state, and with the Brazilian real in the doldrums, it's not a bad time to convert euros to it.

    The Costa Verde in the SE of Brazil — away from Rio and Sao Paulo — would not be a bad destination:

    Costa Verde, Brazil

  132. @Dave Pinsen
    Brazil should encourage Germans to move there. Brazil already has long-standing German cities like Joinville and Blumenau in its Santa Catarina state, and with the Brazilian real in the doldrums, it's not a bad time to convert euros to it.

    Brazil should encourage Germans to move there.

    The world needs more Gisele Bündchens. And Astrud Gilberto’s, too.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Reg and Dave, lots of Germans moved to Brazil during and after WWII using U-boats. Great book, "The Boys from Brazil'" , decent movie adaptation too.
  133. @Steve Richter
    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?

    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society… Musicians?

    Leigh Harline, a Swedish Mormon from Utah, composed what became Disney’s theme, When You Wish Upon a Star.

    Of course, Walt had a way of squeezing memorable tunes from near-nobodies, so I may be damning with faint praise.

  134. @timpleworthy linceum
    Not _that_ tribe.

    The original Mormons were mostly English-descended New York State farmers from the so-called "burned over district", an upstate area famous for regular and severe bouts of odd religiosity and weird organizational formations. By the standards of the day, the Mormons weren't even all that strange. They did pick up a fair number of Scandinavian and German immigrants as well as a few Scots-Irish along the way to Utah.

    Large families and the culling of Mother Nature produced a sturdy and reasonably intelligent gene pool, while the very stupid probably often never married and the very bright probably 'boiled off' at a higher than normal rate due to the sheer outrageousness of the Mormon theology and cosmology. (Except for Scientology and Urantia, a nuttier batch of spirit-batter is unimaginable, and Scientology for decades kept the really whacky stuff (OT III and up is where Xenu, Teegeeack and the rest come out IIRC) secret until after the marks were in for a great deal of money.)

    Mormon religion combines the best of science-fiction-fantasy teaching with a lot of supremely practical advice and working. It is actually very functional for those who can "believe" without having to actually believe, if you can understand that. And I think that's what most intelligent Mormons actually do.

    Mormon religion combines the best of science-fiction-fantasy teaching with a lot of supremely practical advice and working. It is actually very functional for those who can “believe” without having to actually believe, if you can understand that. And I think that’s what most intelligent Mormons actually do.

    I recall the black character in Ghostbusters saying to the receptionist regarding paranormal phenomena, “If there is a steady paycheck in it, I’ll believe anything you say.”

    My son’s mormon friend aged 19 just married a 19 year old hot blonde girl. To say that my son was envious is a gross understatement.

    If you are a normal guy who wants a decent loving wife who is young and beautiful, I sure can see being willing to wear some cotton underwear and go sit through a service a few times a month. If you are Roissy and aren’t into that, then no. But for the normal good beta guy, the mormon thing is a good deal. Far better than that same guy is getting elsewhere. He also gets a community that is loyal to him and his family. You can’t put a price on that as I think we all know.

  135. @Dave Pinsen
    Related to this post (and your previous one about 1960's feminism), a 2011 Salon article: "Why I can’t stop reading Mormon housewife blogs". Excerpt:

    At first glance, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz appear to be members of the species known as the “Hipster Mommy Blogger,” though perhaps a bit more cheerful and wholesome than most. They have bangs like Zooey Deschanel and closets full of cool vintage dresses. Their houses look like Anthropologie catalogs. Their kids look like Baby Gap models. Their husbands look like young graphic designers, all cute lumberjack shirts and square-framed glasses. They spend their days doing fun craft projects (vintage-y owl throw pillow! Recycled button earrings! Hand-stamped linen napkins!). They spend their weekends throwing big, whimsical dinner parties for their friends, all of whom have equally adorable kids and husbands.

    But as you page through their blog archives, you notice certain “tells.” They’re super-young (like, four-kids-at-29 young). They mention relatives in Utah. They drink a suspicious amount of hot chocolate. Finally, you see it: a subtly placed widget with a picture of a temple, or a hyperlink on the word “faith” or “belief.” You click the link and up pops the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    Yep, Naomi and Stacie and Stephanie and Liz are Mormons. They’re members of a large, close-knit network of Mormon lifestyle bloggers — young stay-at-home-moms who blog about home and hearth, Latter-day Saint-style. From Rockstar Diaries (Naomi) to Underaged and Engaged (Stacie) to Nie Nie Dialogues (Stephanie) to Say Yes to Hoboken (Liz), Mormon lifestyle bloggers occupy their very own corner of the blogosphere.

    Their lives are nothing like mine — I’m your standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist — yet I’m completely obsessed with their blogs.
     

    That article was written in 2011, but the experience may have had a long-term impact on its author, Emily Matchar who recently authored this book:

    Homeward Bound: Why Women Are Embracing the New Domesticity

    Interestingly, the Mormon mommy-blog fan identifies herself as a “standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist”, but for the purposes of this article, neglects to identify herself as (ethnically) Jewish, which she did for another Salon article a few years later:

    http://www.salon.com/2013/12/24/my_atheist_christmas_in_china/

    The latter describes how even though she’s an atheist, she couldn’t bring herself to celebrate Christmas, even as a cultural celebration, due to the Christian connection, much to the dismay of her lapsed Christian husband, who couldn’t figure out why she wouldn’t celebrate it in the same way she celebrates Jewish holidays. This changed when she moved to China, where Christmas is completely separated from any religious connotation.

    So Emily Matchar is an over-educated atheist feminist Jew who frets about doing anything that may be construed as Christian but married a goyish philosophy professor and thinks an awful lot about female domesticity. I can’t help but feel this dovetails somewhat with Steve’s earlier post about Jewish women and feminism.

  136. @Reg Cæsar

    Brazil should encourage Germans to move there.
     
    The world needs more Gisele Bündchens. And Astrud Gilberto's, too.

    Reg and Dave, lots of Germans moved to Brazil during and after WWII using U-boats. Great book, “The Boys from Brazil’” , decent movie adaptation too.

  137. @Steve Richter
    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?

    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?

    What an amusing comment. Their newspapers are as good as any. Their colleges are good. Musicians? You gotta be kidding me. The Mississippi delta has given us more great musicians per capita then anywhere. You wanna go there and be a sharecropper?

    Politicians? Like who Clinton or Obama?

    Tech companies? You probably could have plenty of tech companies in Utah if the US had put most of its R&D defense contractors in Salt Lake city instead of SF Bay area in the 50s and 60s.

    • Replies: @SILVER FISH
    there are numerous, extra, cheap and plentiful, tech companies here...supposedly they can pay a little less than in other comparable cities for the same educational attainment level here (at least to Mormons) because the Mormons want to stay in the homeland here in the good family religion area and so they are less portable for higher wages offered in other states
    also forever one hears that locally has the third highest rate of internet penetration into all households,been saying that for years now, may still be true
    , @Dave Pinsen
    The Neon Trees are Mormons from Utah. They're pretty good:
    https://youtu.be/gM7Hlg75Mlo
  138. @Steve Sailer
    Because their husbands make enough money to afford the relatively cheap land in Utah?

    Back in 1754 in an essay proposing immigration restriction, Benjamin Franklin identified high wages and cheap land as the key to why life in America was better for the average person than in Europe.

    But now we all know that kind of Franklinite thinking is downright un-American.

    Sounds like a hell of a campaign platform/slogan

    “High wages! Cheap land! Restrictive immigration!”

    I won’t hold my breath for someone to give that a try.

    Donald “I (heart) Kelo v. City of New London” Trump sure ain’t the guy.

  139. @Twinkie

    re: the boyish looking 40-year-old Lt. Gov

    Posing alongside his wife and the mother of their four children (aged 15, 13, 10,7).
     
    Mormons consider their bodies as temples. Many Mormons keep good fitness, and their women tend to stay trim into their old age.

    Man, I need to move to Utah.
     
    Then you better become a Mormon. Although there is no persecution as such, non-Mormons often face unseen barriers to jobs, promotions, business, positions of authority, etc. when competing against Mormons.

    I am very conflicted about Mormons. They are, by and large, very moral people and vote the right way. They make great political allies and, better still, patriotic Americans. And they make fantastic neighbors provided they do not command a majority or a plurality in the community. But their motivations are less than pluralist when they do command such a position as reflected by the monolithic nature of their religious governance, and, of course, there is the matter of their bizarre and heretical doctrines.

    I have been in Utah for twenty years now. While I can’t contradict the reports of others, I have noticed zero Mormon problems in terms of getting myself hired. There are some reasons why my experience might be atypical, namely, I work lousy jobs always anyway (so maybe the fix is only in on good jobs); also I do prefer to be nocturnal and Mormons are more of a day-shift herd (they are a day-shift herd in fact, but, that is not dispositive for the topic); and my personality and self-presentation tends to slot in easily with the Mormon group peculiarities, as follows…to my observation, Mormon men have a stunned, diffident, odd style of eye contact (you can tell this by hanging around near Temple Square during big hootenannys like General Conference, at which times you know who is a Mormon without asking them), furthermore (other people have made this same observation to me as well) Utah men seem relatively whipped vis a vis taking crap off of their women in public, and overall I experience Mormons as having a provincial deference, they mutter slightly against you to begin with but then roll over fast without being properly forced to it, so possibly my personal cheerful blatant disregard helps me get over on Mormons in an atypical way that prevents them from troubling me, but maybe they are still cruel to those who don’t run over them…blah blah blah…with those caveats, I have not yet detected any trouble from my gentile identity…Maybe out in the weeds like Parowan or Bluebell or whatever small towns it might apply more, the population percentage of LDS is higher away from SLC, we are told…

  140. @Dave Pinsen
    If the numbers are "well known", feel free to provide them. My anecdotal experience differs from yours. My mother has owned a small horse farm for years, and her current horse vet is a woman, as were most of her previous ones. I have never heard of a horse vet switching to small animals. In the past, I asked my mother to have the horse vet look at one of the barn cats, and she refused to ask her, as if it would be insulting to an equine vet.

    All of the helpers who handle the horses, clean stalls, etc., are women. Even the person who removes dead horses - I don't know if there is an official title for that job - is a woman.

    All of the farriers have been men though.

    “the person who removes dead horses – I don’t know if there is an official title for that job”

    In the UK the person is the knacker. He takes old or dead horses to the “knacker’s yard”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knacker

    “I’m knackered” in Britain means “I’m really tired/worn out”, “it’s knackered” or “it’s knacked” means “it’s broken”.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    In Ireland, knacker has a different meaning, though perhaps traceable back to the same origin. Say it in the wrong company and you're likely to get cut up with a slash hook.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Locally, the bodies aren't rendered, just buried, so I'm not sure if they'd be considered knackers. And, locally, they don't take live horses.
  141. @Deduction

    But baldness: unless someone wants to wear a wig or get a cosmetic procedure (x 10) done, losing one’s hair isn’t really a choice. Bald people are “born this way” and are just reverting back to their primeval form.
     
    Minoxidil and Finasteride are both cheap and proven to work and with minimal side-effects, whatever a few hypercondriacs says.

    They're like steroids. All of Hollywood is on them but no-one wants to admit it, because admitting it means that they lose a signficant part of the social value of their 'natural' good looks.

    Jason Statham probably isn’t. Bruce Willis. Patrick Stewart.

    However, they would have been too far gone to recover by the time those were discovered.

    And you forgot le Niz!

  142. @Wilkey
    "The reason Mormon kids are sent to various hellholes isn’t to help the natives, it’s to cement the belief in their minds of the superiority of their own system and circumstance back home."

    Yeah, a big part of the mission experience is that it serves to reinforce the faith of those who go. It's an experience young Mormon men (and many women) can be told to look forward to. Then, once they're off the mission, in a culture that frowns upon premarital sex, they can be pushed straight into marriage, ideally leaving them as little time as possible to question the faith. That's great for helping to boost the birthrates but also reduces the impact Mormons have on the culture - fewer Mormons with lots of time on their hands to form bands, write plays, try to make it in Hollywood, etc.

    But missions are also about winning converts. Converts in the First World are becoming harder and harder to get, in large part because of all the information available about the real history of the church. Ask any Mormon who served in a First World mission how many new members they baptized, and the answer is likely to be two or less - for a two year mission. That's why an increasingly large share of US missionaries learn Spanish before leaving the training center.

    “Converts in the First World are becoming harder and harder to get, in large part because of all the information available about the real history of the church.”

    There are fewer conversions in the First World, but that’s a trend that long predates the internet or any other plausible mechanism for making “more information available about the real history of the church.” The fact is that the whole First World is in a long-term cycle of secularization. Mormons have manifestly weathered that better than most other churches, which suggests that the weird history isn’t really the operative force that everyone thinks it is.

  143. @Anonymous Nephew
    "the person who removes dead horses – I don’t know if there is an official title for that job"

    In the UK the person is the knacker. He takes old or dead horses to the "knacker's yard".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knacker

    "I'm knackered" in Britain means "I'm really tired/worn out", "it's knackered" or "it's knacked" means "it's broken".

    In Ireland, knacker has a different meaning, though perhaps traceable back to the same origin. Say it in the wrong company and you’re likely to get cut up with a slash hook.

  144. @IBC
    It looks like that's due to a change in legal definitions:

    http://universe.byu.edu/2014/11/12/violent-crime-is-low-in-utah-overall-but-rape-rates-are-high/

    When I lived in SLC, there was a problem with smashed car windows, petty theft, and begging in certain areas. I think this was partly thanks to drug abuse because I also noticed quite a few destitute-looking people (all white), who judging by their skin, may have been meth addicts. I did hear reports of knife fights among some of the Polynesians and was advised to be careful in some parts of town after dark. In some ways, Salt Lake City has a kind of communitarian feel to it. But for those who reject the Church and find themselves hard up, it's more like the Wild West with 24-hour bail bond offices, pawn shops, and incredibly seedy motels. Salt Lake City has one of the nicest public libraries (main branch) that I've ever been in. But inside, there were the same sort of homeless-looking (and smelling) people that one can find in other big cities across the country.

    I'd guess that towns like Provo (where BYU is) are more consistently spick and span, both physically and culturally. In contrast, Park City used to be known for being the opposite of a Mormon town. For several years in the 19th century, they supposedly had more whore houses than churches. And nowadays, the demographic mix there of wealthy Hollywood types and Mexican service workers, is also pretty un-Saintly. It'd be interesting to see how it compares with "sexist but equal" Ogden.

    It looks like that’s due to a change in legal definitions

    I suspect not. That is the standard response of every jurisdiction that has experienced increases in rape. It also does not explain why SLC has over four times the national average of rape as of 2013.

    Wouldn’t have anything to do with the dramatic rise in Hispanic population there during the same period, would it?

    • Replies: @SILVER FISH
    In re SLC rapes et cetera...one wonders if the statistics were massaged to account for the younger demographic bulge as compared to other cities, and then rape presumably is a more common offense at a younger age...that would maybe take a bit of the edge off. Also there is lots of crystal meth,which might drive rapes up somewhat, that is merely an unsupported guess though.
    As far as Mexicans and rape here, there were a couple of cases that struck me over the years as being a subtype I hadn't thought to distinguish previously...where you have those short Mexicans (actually from Mexico) who are barely five foot in height, accused of raping say a 12-year-old white girl, sudden stranger assault...so one wonders if there's correlation between particularly short stature and selection of a young victim at 12, since her height at that age fits into the attacker's short height and all
    The crime or morbidity that I think oversupplied around here is suicide. I've never had friends kill themselves in any other city, and there have been several and extra of those in SLC.
  145. @Anonymous Nephew
    "the person who removes dead horses – I don’t know if there is an official title for that job"

    In the UK the person is the knacker. He takes old or dead horses to the "knacker's yard".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knacker

    "I'm knackered" in Britain means "I'm really tired/worn out", "it's knackered" or "it's knacked" means "it's broken".

    Locally, the bodies aren’t rendered, just buried, so I’m not sure if they’d be considered knackers. And, locally, they don’t take live horses.

  146. @Twinkie

    It looks like that’s due to a change in legal definitions
     
    I suspect not. That is the standard response of every jurisdiction that has experienced increases in rape. It also does not explain why SLC has over four times the national average of rape as of 2013.

    Wouldn't have anything to do with the dramatic rise in Hispanic population there during the same period, would it?

    In re SLC rapes et cetera…one wonders if the statistics were massaged to account for the younger demographic bulge as compared to other cities, and then rape presumably is a more common offense at a younger age…that would maybe take a bit of the edge off. Also there is lots of crystal meth,which might drive rapes up somewhat, that is merely an unsupported guess though.
    As far as Mexicans and rape here, there were a couple of cases that struck me over the years as being a subtype I hadn’t thought to distinguish previously…where you have those short Mexicans (actually from Mexico) who are barely five foot in height, accused of raping say a 12-year-old white girl, sudden stranger assault…so one wonders if there’s correlation between particularly short stature and selection of a young victim at 12, since her height at that age fits into the attacker’s short height and all
    The crime or morbidity that I think oversupplied around here is suicide. I’ve never had friends kill themselves in any other city, and there have been several and extra of those in SLC.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    The crime or morbidity that I think oversupplied around here is suicide. I’ve never had friends kill themselves in any other city, and there have been several and extra of those in SLC.

    The suicide rate for middle-aged (35-64) white men increased 40% from 1999-2010. That may be part of the reason you notice more suicides, especially if you're in that age bracket. Additionally, some interesting recent studies have shown a strong correlation between suicide rates and altitude, down to the county level. That would at least partially explain Utah's suicide rate, which is high compared to the USA but not out of line for the Rocky Mountain states.
  147. @Honesthughgrant

    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?
     
    What an amusing comment. Their newspapers are as good as any. Their colleges are good. Musicians? You gotta be kidding me. The Mississippi delta has given us more great musicians per capita then anywhere. You wanna go there and be a sharecropper?

    Politicians? Like who Clinton or Obama?

    Tech companies? You probably could have plenty of tech companies in Utah if the US had put most of its R&D defense contractors in Salt Lake city instead of SF Bay area in the 50s and 60s.

    there are numerous, extra, cheap and plentiful, tech companies here…supposedly they can pay a little less than in other comparable cities for the same educational attainment level here (at least to Mormons) because the Mormons want to stay in the homeland here in the good family religion area and so they are less portable for higher wages offered in other states
    also forever one hears that locally has the third highest rate of internet penetration into all households,been saying that for years now, may still be true

  148. “Look at Mormon promotions and they’re full of mixed-race couples. Mormons need to get their act together or they’re going to be a yellow-brown multicult hell like the rest of America. Sad, because Mormonism used to be explicitly ethno-nationalist.”

    
Men and women have the liberty to marry and procreate with whomever they choose, regardless of ethnicity or race. There is no need for anyone to “get their act together”.

    • Disagree: ben tillman
  149. Salt Lake City is, apart from the governmental and Church activities, a largely gentile city. In fact, in my salad days I probably did my wildest partying and had the best/most sex of my life in that city. Most of the rest of Utah is NOT that way and any sane attempt to study the wily Mormon in his native habitat will go to where the gentiles and jack Mormons aren’t-places, in other words, like Provo.

    I’m very fond of Mormons in a lot of ways, but while the LDS system does a lot of things very well, it also does some very poorly. It produces people who can solve problems, but not people who can think “out of the box”, who can imagine and then build what has never been before. As engineers, artists, designers, Mormons are a lot like the Japanese, even though the Japanese have been formed by centuries if not millennia of selection and the Mormons are still several years short of their bicentennial. They can make a car better, but they would never have invented it in the first place. Their art, music, sculpture, architecture are imitative-look at the Mormon temples going up all over the place, they look like they are in a second rate theme park.

    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    People raised in the Mormon culture who don't continue in the religion seem to show up a lot in the arts and do well. I can't remember if Sailer has written about this.

    Neil LaBute and Aaron Eckhart are two examples. The South Park guys are a second possible example (although they weren't Mormon, just lived near them).
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Mormon temples do have a certain Disney look to them on the outside. I once got a tour of the one in Oakland, CA, by a business colleague who happened to be a senior guy in the Mormon church. Great location.
  150. @SILVER FISH
    In re SLC rapes et cetera...one wonders if the statistics were massaged to account for the younger demographic bulge as compared to other cities, and then rape presumably is a more common offense at a younger age...that would maybe take a bit of the edge off. Also there is lots of crystal meth,which might drive rapes up somewhat, that is merely an unsupported guess though.
    As far as Mexicans and rape here, there were a couple of cases that struck me over the years as being a subtype I hadn't thought to distinguish previously...where you have those short Mexicans (actually from Mexico) who are barely five foot in height, accused of raping say a 12-year-old white girl, sudden stranger assault...so one wonders if there's correlation between particularly short stature and selection of a young victim at 12, since her height at that age fits into the attacker's short height and all
    The crime or morbidity that I think oversupplied around here is suicide. I've never had friends kill themselves in any other city, and there have been several and extra of those in SLC.

    The crime or morbidity that I think oversupplied around here is suicide. I’ve never had friends kill themselves in any other city, and there have been several and extra of those in SLC.

    The suicide rate for middle-aged (35-64) white men increased 40% from 1999-2010. That may be part of the reason you notice more suicides, especially if you’re in that age bracket. Additionally, some interesting recent studies have shown a strong correlation between suicide rates and altitude, down to the county level. That would at least partially explain Utah’s suicide rate, which is high compared to the USA but not out of line for the Rocky Mountain states.

  151. @endicott coil
    Salt Lake City is, apart from the governmental and Church activities, a largely gentile city. In fact, in my salad days I probably did my wildest partying and had the best/most sex of my life in that city. Most of the rest of Utah is NOT that way and any sane attempt to study the wily Mormon in his native habitat will go to where the gentiles and jack Mormons aren't-places, in other words, like Provo.

    I'm very fond of Mormons in a lot of ways, but while the LDS system does a lot of things very well, it also does some very poorly. It produces people who can solve problems, but not people who can think "out of the box", who can imagine and then build what has never been before. As engineers, artists, designers, Mormons are a lot like the Japanese, even though the Japanese have been formed by centuries if not millennia of selection and the Mormons are still several years short of their bicentennial. They can make a car better, but they would never have invented it in the first place. Their art, music, sculpture, architecture are imitative-look at the Mormon temples going up all over the place, they look like they are in a second rate theme park.

    People raised in the Mormon culture who don’t continue in the religion seem to show up a lot in the arts and do well. I can’t remember if Sailer has written about this.

    Neil LaBute and Aaron Eckhart are two examples. The South Park guys are a second possible example (although they weren’t Mormon, just lived near them).

  152. @Honesthughgrant

    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?
     
    What an amusing comment. Their newspapers are as good as any. Their colleges are good. Musicians? You gotta be kidding me. The Mississippi delta has given us more great musicians per capita then anywhere. You wanna go there and be a sharecropper?

    Politicians? Like who Clinton or Obama?

    Tech companies? You probably could have plenty of tech companies in Utah if the US had put most of its R&D defense contractors in Salt Lake city instead of SF Bay area in the 50s and 60s.

    The Neon Trees are Mormons from Utah. They’re pretty good:

  153. @endicott coil
    Salt Lake City is, apart from the governmental and Church activities, a largely gentile city. In fact, in my salad days I probably did my wildest partying and had the best/most sex of my life in that city. Most of the rest of Utah is NOT that way and any sane attempt to study the wily Mormon in his native habitat will go to where the gentiles and jack Mormons aren't-places, in other words, like Provo.

    I'm very fond of Mormons in a lot of ways, but while the LDS system does a lot of things very well, it also does some very poorly. It produces people who can solve problems, but not people who can think "out of the box", who can imagine and then build what has never been before. As engineers, artists, designers, Mormons are a lot like the Japanese, even though the Japanese have been formed by centuries if not millennia of selection and the Mormons are still several years short of their bicentennial. They can make a car better, but they would never have invented it in the first place. Their art, music, sculpture, architecture are imitative-look at the Mormon temples going up all over the place, they look like they are in a second rate theme park.

    Mormon temples do have a certain Disney look to them on the outside. I once got a tour of the one in Oakland, CA, by a business colleague who happened to be a senior guy in the Mormon church. Great location.

  154. @Steve Richter
    to argue from the other side, how much excellence has emerged from Mormon society? Do they have excellent universities? Authors? Newspapers? Scholarship? High tech companies? Musicians? Politicians?

    America’s greatest economist, as of 2015, Tyler Cowen, utilises speed reading. Whence invented? Well, by the Woods. A nice Utah husband and wife.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Wood_(teacher)

    He can’t see (Cowen) that Mexicans did not invent this. Though he can observe that South Americans don’t read books in airport lounges while waiting to board.

    Ye olde English surnames like Romney, Marriott, Huntsman, and Wood, out in Utah. Obviously interchangeable with Mexicans and others from parts wherever.

    Whatever Cowen thinks.

  155. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Men and women have the liberty to marry and procreate with whomever they choose, regardless of ethnicity or race. There is no need for anyone to “get their act together”.

    Men and women very definitely do have the liberty to marry whoever they choose. But organizations or other groups that strive to survive, as organizations, also have the liberty to do what they can to promulgate the survival of the organization, that is, “get their act together”. Not everything is about individuals.

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