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Biogeographic Ancestry, Cognitive Ability and Socioeconomic Outcomes
Emil O. W. Kirkegaard, Michael A. Woodley of Menie, Robert L. Williams, John Fuerst and Gerhard Meisenberg
They found a database of 1,369 American kids, average age 11 or 12, for which they have both genes, allowing them to look racial ancestry (horizontal axis) and scores on an IQ-like test of cognitive ability (vertical axis).
Among those who self-identified as black (blue dots) and white (red dots), there wasn’t much overlap. There’s one red dot way off in the nonwhite section and about a dozen people near 50/50 white/nonwhite. But even though the Economist says there is no doubt vast confusion over self-identification, there actually isn’t much. Two individuals are self-identified as white who are less than 50% white by genetic ancestry estimate (one substantially, one marginally). And two individuals are self-identified as black who are more than 50% white, but none more than about 5/8ths white.
In general, even among the new generation, there aren’t all that many people who are mostly white but partly black.
A couple of things to keep in mind is that these are children and the self-identification is probably done by their parents. Parents in mixed marriages are more likely, I imagine, to pick “Multi-Ethnic” for their children. In contrast, children can have strong opinions. For example, in 2010 President Barack Obama told the Census that he wasn’t white, just black.
I wouldn’t be surprised if a 21st Century trend is for higher cognitive scores among 100% black individuals — who are increasingly legal immigrants or children of legal immigrants, many of whom got here through the higher education system.
The blacks seem a bit feminised, in the sense that their scatter seems to be smaller than for the whites. But the samples aren’t very big and aren’t random either. Then again, I’m judging by eye and haven’t attempted arithmetic.
Maybe the standard deviation for American blacks is smaller roughly in proportion to their mean IQ being smaller: presumably this must be well-known to be true or false.
Ah: La Griffe du Lion has the facts.
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/blackelite.htm
1.1 standard deviation difference, it seems, from the big dots. Where have we seen that number before? Oh yeah, Le Griffe de Lyon.
The white side is resolving into a bell curve, but the black side is a mess, probably due to the smaller sample size and the dot placement due to admixture.
You beat me to it.
Ditto on the scatter. Using the "data squint" I can't shake the visual impression of the blue dots being an upstanding hedgehog gazing upward longingly at the large right tail of the red dots. With an exclamation point over his head.
The Sociological Constant once again rears its ugly head, with the intelligence test scores showing a difference of 1 SD at the European/African extremes.
It would be interesting to see the white subgroups measured in a similar way. For example, most Ashkenazi Jews have a significant amount of (indigenous) European ancenstry. Does a higher % of Middle Eastern DNA amongst self-identified Ashkenazi Jews lead to higher or lower IQ scores, or no correlation?
Barack be de good politician,
So describe hisself ethnic condition
As all de way Black.
One Drop Rule got yo back
As yo climb to de higher position.
Cracker lands and family were still in his control.
But big Don's ear turned to pretty boy Kush,
Spinnin' fine and fancy tales 'bout de big Koch push.
S'prise! 'N Cracker Jack drops down to the low pee pole.
Very few Mulatto Americans identify as mixed race , 90% of mulattos identify as black like Obama.
On the 2010 census , 9 million identified themselves as mixed race , and just 12% of them listed any black ancestry. The majority of the self identified mixed race people in America list Native American and white of them are Hispanic , but many are like Elizabeth Warren – white Americans who believe they had an Indian great great grandparent.
If you have even two brain cells with sufficient cognitive ability, you’re likely to unambiguously, not to mention correctly self-identify.
So describe hisself ethnic condition
As all de way Black.
One Drop Rule got yo back
As yo climb to de higher position.Replies: @Ron Mexico, @anon, @Liza, @OFWHAP, @Neil Templeton
“Hey, hey, we movin on up…”
In that graphic the dumber and smarther guys are white. Strange.
I dunno it looks to me like there’s a huge percentage of mixed race people fronting as whites and maybe pulling down our alleged SD. Hate to be a one dropper but need to know if the yellow peril and zog are as big a threat as Im told
Maybe the current state of whiteness evolution is not as differentiated as we thought or the current state of our scientific ability means thata huge cluster around 90% are whats left of whites that wuz kangs in mesopotamia persia etc, but in todays tests its interpreted as non white admix. Am i really rare because the only non northern euro genes i have are 3% neanderthal and my race have been in america for a almost three hundred years as irish/british and I dont think we came on the mayflower at least not above decks
But theres a whole mess between 90-75% who are they they cant all be jeffersons bastards, sexism was as “bad” as “racism” in the past so how would black women with mixed babies enter white society in a way that went unnoted, they would with their children have been pushed back into the black community and bred back into blackside. Its not like they were getting married for generations into white side and suddenly just forget they are mixed
or are these other non white races claiming to be white like hispanics with a bit of amerindian and say both indians with whites and asin white that might have more plausibly been able to racially assimilate?
If you look at the graph honestly it looks like the mostly-whites are beating the all-whites, especially on the low end. Just to the left it looks like everyone is clustering around the white norm without the extreme tails, and heavier on the high tail than the low tail. The pure-white sample is the most intellectually diverse.
I hate to feed Kevin D. Williamson (AKA Thomm around here) but the graph doesn't rule it out.
Four generations of white fathers in a row and the fifth will be about as black as Elizabeth Warren is Indian. Two generations could have taken one's linage from field worker to a 3/4 white house slave, then only a hop, skip and a jump to living in the north.
Folks that know you and your opinions aren't going to talk too candidly to you about what they may have found in their 23 and Me results... Do you know who all of your ancestors were six generations ago?Replies: @Jack D
So describe hisself ethnic condition
As all de way Black.
One Drop Rule got yo back
As yo climb to de higher position.Replies: @Ron Mexico, @anon, @Liza, @OFWHAP, @Neil Templeton
Blacks both aspire to white blood and hate other blacks with it out of envy, one drop rule is immaterial you cant hide blackness so they like us don’t buy into this mixed race lefty meme. mixed is just another marxist deconstruction ploy to find another group to chip off, what they are trying to do is empower half blacks buy implying they are the same as half asians and half hispanics, while at the same time trying to make half asian and half hispanics etc feel insecure about their racial status as a result in the hopes of recruiting them to the dark side. Its just an extension of the game (((they))) ran on east asians to bring them over which unfortunately for the east asians will be remembered and once you go black you cant come back sayonara
My own personal experience has been that multi-racial children born after a certain year, say the 90’s forward tend to identify as mixed race rather than black or white. It’s not universal, but remember that Obama is a baby Boomer. Tiger Woods, on the other hand, identifies as mixed. This is the trend I’m seeing with most people who are mixed race and younger.
That seems like a lot of “near whites” for America. Most American whites are 100% European.
I am surprised that the definition between black and white is so close to 50 %. You would think that there are a lot of 50-80% whites for whom it would be in their best interest to identify as black.
However, the thing to realize here is the X-axis is not a black-white scale. It's just a %white scale.
Those 50-80% white kids are probably not 50-20% black, but rather some other mix--Asians, Hispanic/native American. In fact, the sample is small, it's possible none of those dots is your 75-25 white-black.
A lesser issue, but likewise for the blacks. It's only a scale of white DNA, it doesn't actually tell you how black they are. There was a girl in my son's HS class--black\Asian. She was nowhere near my son's league, but "smart enough". She won one of those "best of the blacks" scholarships the National Merit folks gave out. (Apparently they have stopped. It was called National Achievement Scholarship Program.) She was half talented-tenth black and half Asian so no more than at most 20% black. Would have charted somewhere near those two highest black dots.
Help me out here, Steve. I’m no good at interpreting charts. Do those red dots on the right, below -3, at the bottom, mean that the stupidest white 12 year olds are stupider than black 12 year olds?
Can we get the same graph of black politicians?
Off-topic, but relates to Steve’s assertion that the European Union would be more popular if it concentrated on helping Europeans rather than focusing on furthering the ‘human rights’ of Africans.
From Breitbart:
Interestingly, this is the same president of the EU Parliament who featured in this iSteve blog from July 2017:
EU Parliament President: African Exodus to Europe Threatens Disaster of “Biblical Proportions”
Why the change of tune? Maybe he was persuaded by other EU bigwigs who convinced him Europe will die without a giant dose of enrichment.
See:
Blackmail? Orders from his party? Politicians work that way. They lack true convictions or ideas.
we always hear “there’s more genetic diversity among blacks,” but never mentioned is “there’s more cognitive diversity among europeans.”
Figure 4 showing the equivalent plot for Whites and Hispanics makes an interesting contrast.
To be clear (I initially assumed it was a group of children around that age) from the paper: “The mean age was 11.75 (SD = 4.88; range = 3–21).” Not sure if it matters that the Black sample averaged almost a year older than the White sample or how different developmental rates might affect the results.
This is also possibly important:
It looks like they did not give any PGS results (or did I miss them?). Probably because “we lack
trans-ethnically valid cognitive ability PGS”.
There is additional Supplementary Material at OSF: https://osf.io/64y8m/
The negative relationship between African ancestry and measured IQ, whether the relationship is expressed as a 0/1 dummy variable or a linear coefficient associated with percentage ancestry, is well-known. A new finding here is the high concordance of the white/black self-identification variable. That ruins a whole range of anti-HBD arguments based on a supposedly weak connection between declared race and genetic ancestry. This is an important paper and it is very satisfying to see it published. Thanks for the link.
There it is again–an approximately one standard deviation difference between the general mental ability of whites and blacks in the USA. Plus the distribution in whites appears to be flatter than blacks–more very low and very high scores for general mental ability. I think Steve has referred to this as the most replicated finding in social science. The logical conclusion is that trying to mix two such different groups of people forcibly will lead to serious social stress; which is precisely what has happened over the past 50-60 years.
The plot is reasonable in doing what it is trying to do. However, it leaves considerable visual confusion about overall density in the white space because so many whites individuals are stacked up on the 100% white line and presumably overlapping. But we can’t tell how deep the overlapping is where?
Other thing struck me at a glance: this sample looked a bit IQ constrained for whites. From basic knowledge of the US and eyeballing, one would expect of those 1369 to get something over half white or white identifying. Let’s call it 800 to make the math trivial. 2SD up is 2.5%–1/40, or 20 kids out of 800. I count ten white kids at 2SD+ including liners. Seems just a touch low. And the low end is more stark–only 8–although this makes more sense as some of those kids might end up being institutionalized, in-care, etc.
Mr Steve, don’t be so snarky! Obama’s claim to being a Negro in the world is reasonable enough based on looking at himself in the mirror.
I haven’t read the paper carefully yet, but if I understand how it did its regressions, as they seem to be shown in the graph, its conclusions don’t seem very well supported.
The regression line I see in the graph suggests that the slope was determined by taking all of the subjects, including all of the white subjects, and throwing them into the calculation.
But this would be one of those cases in which regression coefficients might greatly distort the underlying reality.
The problem is that the regression would be dominated by the many subjects who are 100%, or very close to 100%, of European ancestry. Since we know that whites do better by about 1 SD on cognitive tests, and the vast majority of whites are at or very near 100% European ancestry, it’s pretty much guaranteed a priori that such a regression will show a strong correlation between cognitive test performance and European ancestry.
Imagine a case in which all subjects fell into two categories, either 100% European or 100% subSaharan. The regression coefficients would likely be roughly the same in value as they are in the current case, but nobody would reasonably conclude that this demonstrates a real genetic correlation between cognitive ability and ancestry — it would really tell us nothing that we wouldn’t know already from the actual phenotypic differences.
It would be far more convincing to restrict the calculation of correlation to blacks within a limited range of European ancestry — say, below 30%, or even between 15% and 25%. One wouldn’t expect that such minor differences would be noticeable or relevant environmentally (certainly not if the one-drop rule seemed dominant in the environment). If nonetheless the correlation is substantial, it’s hard to explain it by causes other than genetic.
Maybe I’m wrong about how I’m interpreting the graph and from my too cursory look at the paper, but this seems like an important defect.
P.S., by eye the case of Hispanics seems a lot more convincing, because the spread in ancestry seems greater, though some of the same issues might apply.
For self identified whites, the relationship between percent black and smarts from 75% white to 50% white is counter-intuitively negative -- more black equals smarter in this thinly populated range.
So where we can see with our own eyes the trend lines by self-identification within specific ranges, 2 out of 3 don't support their overall trend, and 2 out of 3 don't contradict it.
If you truncate the two extremes, 0% and 100%, in your mind and ignore the color of the dots, the trend line is conspicuously positive with respect to percent white, too.
Interesting that there seems to be a cluster of whites with 1/24 African genes.Replies: @Buddwing, @anon, @Reg Cæsar, @AnotherDad
https://res.mdpi.com/psych/psych-01-00001/article_deploy/html/images/psych-01-00001-g004-550.jpgTo be clear (I initially assumed it was a group of children around that age) from the paper: "The mean age was 11.75 (SD = 4.88; range = 3–21)." Not sure if it matters that the Black sample averaged almost a year older than the White sample or how different developmental rates might affect the results.
This is also possibly important:It looks like they did not give any PGS results (or did I miss them?). Probably because "we lack
trans-ethnically valid cognitive ability PGS".
There is additional Supplementary Material at OSF: https://osf.io/64y8m/Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome, @Anonymous, @Blastmaster, @Peter Johnson
So they remove from the sample all whites that live in the suburbs and commute?
The regression is based on the black sample only. The whites are there for comparison.
You have to love an article that is titled biogeographic ancestry that describes the separation by geographic tangibles then conclude that the larger effect is from genetics. laugh.
First as has become abundantly clear, geographic location does not equate to genetic equivilent – genetic markers. So right away the gig is up.
Second, if your N is from the US then their geographic location globally is not known unless you took a genetic sampling of each test subject and even then, you’d have to track that via a trace analysis of the DNA via its unique population chain (ancestry)/
Third skin color is to biodiversity biologically, it’s relation to cognition is relevant to said geographics in the US, if at all. And you then have to account for the differences in each environment geographically, if at all.
Fourth, your finding mimic another study that was related to environment — excuse me — the studies correllation is therefore unclear — the dynamic appear to operate in conjuction based on the analysis put forward.
Fifth, nice try —
“Nevertheless, in the most recent survey of intelligence researchers, “genes were rated as the most important cause (17%) [of international differences], followed by educational quality (11.44%), health (10.88%), and educational quantity (10.20%)”
They are engaging in some sloppy differentiation here: 17% genetics to 11.4% quality 10.2% quantity — already undermines the the genetics as both of those, even if they were accurate variables are environmental and combined mean that 21.6% environment. Which by my count is greater than 17% genetics. Now there’s this tricky variable of health. Because based on the explication health is not evaluated to genetics or environment, which would be a problem to impact. But if the researchers are speaking of general health conditions, in other words, nongenetic causes, that too is environment and further impacts environment.
Fifth,
“Factors affecting SIRE groups in general (e.g., stereotype threat, race-based discrimination, segregation, cultural norms, dialect, language, etc.) are either controlled for or attenuated. ”
Apparently the researchers ignore several thousand years of sociological development in Europe, and Asia. The development of nationalities and the recognition of ethnic association make the claim here dubious. Attenuation needs more than a authoritarian/expert say so. I guess if you ignore the rise and fall of different societies related to notions of superior standing – one can conclude that such factors are attenuated. I take it the researchers think that latin is german, german is french, french is italian, greek is scottish gaelic is scottish leid, Irish gaelic and that they practiced the same sociology. Just never mind those pesky marauders across europe and asia that raped, pillaged, burned and intermarried their way across Europe and Asia. Nevermind the vastly stable continent of Africa in which civilizations fought, traded, intermarried c0-existed and co-mingled across the continent, even before they opted to tackle the deserts northward toward Europe
Frankly, I think there is salience in Saphir-Worf — that language is a tool that helps fashion ethnic variety
Sixth,
Let’s just skip the self identity to skin color to genetics —- as it is now quite clear that what researchers in genetics have come to understand about humans is that genetics goes far beyond skin color and even geographical location.
Seventh, I think this important research. But the modeling needs vast improvement to make the case it’s advocates are attempting to make. But based on what i read of the research, there’s not much in the way of ubiquitous cognition in play.
So describe hisself ethnic condition
As all de way Black.
One Drop Rule got yo back
As yo climb to de higher position.Replies: @Ron Mexico, @anon, @Liza, @OFWHAP, @Neil Templeton
What higher position? Pope? Too bad for Obammy – Cardinal Polycarp Pengo is way ahead.
I found a picture of the red dot off to the left of the figure.
https://imgix.bustle.com/rehost/2016/9/13/58863639-c7db-4000-83fc-d0ae4cff529a.jpg?w=970&h=546&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format&q=70Replies: @Billy Plato, @ben tillman
This study is simply scoring another touch down when the score is already 49-0. This and any future race based science will always be dwarfed by the civilization development of Africa versus Europe. Waste of time taking about regression lines, blah blah blah
Taleb is really digging himself a hole……I guess that it hasn’t occurred to him that the mean IQ of a population can change over time…..
Egypt, Mesopotamia and the other regions in the Middle East were indeed highly productive and intellectually fertile. The great library at Alexandria being one example. What happened to those cultures exactly?Replies: @Anonymous, @gregor
Also, it is why he claims that Greek/Roman civilization isn't "white." They are Mediterranean, not Germanic according to him.
Hypotheses:
1. Parents checked the wrong box by mistake.
2. Parents checked African-American to make some kind of political point.
3. Child’s name was Rachel Dolezal, Jr.
BTW, look at the +2 (SD?) line for IQ and notice how many African Americans are above that line vs. the # of whites.
Do you know what a “greater metropolitan area” is?
Last I read, the general agreement is that Ashkenazis are roughly 60% European. Founding population was half Levantine, half Roman, with some Eastern Euro admixture occurring much later. Most (60-70%?) Ashkenazis are Eastern Med via their Y-DNA while the vast majority of Ashkenazi mtDNA is European, mostly Italian. (When I took 23andMe several years ago the first group that popped up for my Y-DNA were Palestinians, though the site’s classification system has since changed).
I would expect no correlation with ME v Euro admixture because of the nature and time of Ashkenazi admixture, the likely reasons for why Ashkeanzis have elevated IQs, and the smaller differences between indigenous Levantines and Europeans.
Because the founding population was formed nearly 2,000 years ago you shouldn’t find much variation in ME ancestry. That’s also why it’s harder to even precisely determine the amount of ME ancestry in Ashkenazis. Chromosomes get shuffled every generation, and 2,000 years leads to a lot of shuffling.
Second, assuming Cochran and Harpending explanation of Ashkenazi IQ, there’s no reason to expect the relevant genes were more likely to come from Europe. (I think Ashkenazi IQ is overstated, but there are way too many prominent Ashkenazis – especially in the hard sciences – for it to be a total fluke, ie the tail ends of bell curves are telling. A 5-7 IQ advantage over the average US White seems about right.)
Finally, I doubt indigenous Levantine populations vary much from Europeans (please correct me if I’m wrong). We’re not talking about Blacks or unmixed Amerindians here. Relatively speaking, they’re a closely related Caucasian subgroup. Many of these people can even pass for European. Google Sarah Tsedaka or just look at Iraqi and Syrian Jews. I had a Christian Palestinian professor in college and he could easily pass for Greek or Sicilian.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48d7/843f6ce714a684a93530a0c8b7da65d185db.pdfReplies: @Jack D
I don’t doubt that the Mesopotamians are masters of the social and physical technology of the Bronze Age. The problem is that it’s the 21st century now.
Eyeballing the graph, it appears that the average self-identified African-American in the study is only about 12.5% white.
But it seems like most prior studies have found that the average African-American is more like 20-30% European. https://www.theroot.com/exactly-how-black-is-black-america-1790895185
They both can’t be right. Either the study’s sample was unrepresentative or the genetic testing services are unrepresentative.
Some possible explanations -
- The old ~75%-white paper bag test black class that mostly intermarried doesn't anymore. This group instead now often mates with whites producing 7/8 whites that self-ID as white unless they go into politics or academia. Or they mate with normal AAs.
- The non-black or white share or self ID'd blacks increases due to black-hispanic/asian children.
- African immigration increases the number of US blacks with no white ancestry. Haitians and Jamaicans also appear to me to have less Euro ancestry than Heritage US Blacks.Replies: @Jack D, @Jefferson
I think that's the key point--median vs. mean.
But the other point is "not representative". But it cuts both ways--this survey and the results from places like 23 and Me or Ancestry.com.
This survey has the issue ben tillman outlined for you--1/8 from Honolulu, 1/4 from California. Some slice of these blacks will be black-Asian and that decreases the white DNA % relative to the black parent even though the kid looks "lighter" and probably scores higher in IQ.
The DNA services have the issue of a huge selection effect. The really black-blacks tend to be poor and heavily ghettoized. They aren't the ones running out and paying $100 for DNA analysis so they can sit at the computer and look at their matches. (They might not even know who their daddy is!) These results like 30% white apply to middle class blacks, mostly with intact family trees who are interested in this sort of thing like middle class white people.
My SWAG is overall American blacks are probably around 20% European on average with the median lower, though that figure is subject to change from the competing trends of inter-racial sex (most of it isn't marriage) and African immigration.
The real significance of this study is whether it provides further evidence that the B-W IQ gap is genetically based. Older studies using this method were limited to blood groups (and supposedly did not support the hereditarian hypothesis), but current DNA technology could change everything. I’ve wondered why someone didn’t just take IQ scores and DNA results to determine, for example, if Blacks that are 25% White average higher IQs/mental reaction times/SES than Blacks that are only 10% White.
I printed out the study and will find out…
Ok, that’s a significant point.
But it seems like most prior studies have found that the average African-American is more like 20-30% European. https://www.theroot.com/exactly-how-black-is-black-america-1790895185
They both can't be right. Either the study's sample was unrepresentative or the genetic testing services are unrepresentative.Replies: @anon, @Anonymous Jew, @Lot, @ben tillman, @AnotherDad
17%. Look at table 4 or the big dot in the graph.
and to my eye the people on mesopotamian etc pottery etc look awfully white to me we wuz kangs fo realz
But it seems like most prior studies have found that the average African-American is more like 20-30% European. https://www.theroot.com/exactly-how-black-is-black-america-1790895185
They both can't be right. Either the study's sample was unrepresentative or the genetic testing services are unrepresentative.Replies: @anon, @Anonymous Jew, @Lot, @ben tillman, @AnotherDad
Sampling error, perhaps. Also (as you probably already know) White ancestry in Blacks is not evenly distributed. The median Black is not 22% (or whatever number) White. I think it’s more like 15%. There’s a minority of Blacks that are essentially half White and that really skews the numbers, so you get a very different mean and median.
When I worked in DC one of my “Black” colleagues was from Chevy Chase and his father was a surgeon (both parents were “Black”). He looked Whiter than Obama. I attended one of his parties and met some of his friends from some exclusive Black social club and they all looked Whiter than Obama. I would guess at least 60% White ancestry. And yes, he achieved good but mediocre scores and used AA to get into a lower level Ivy. That, plus connections, is their game.
OT: c1900 irish golf course architecture
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112073457878;view=1up;seq=84
Other thing struck me at a glance: this sample looked a bit IQ constrained for whites. From basic knowledge of the US and eyeballing, one would expect of those 1369 to get something over half white or white identifying. Let's call it 800 to make the math trivial. 2SD up is 2.5%--1/40, or 20 kids out of 800. I count ten white kids at 2SD+ including liners. Seems just a touch low. And the low end is more stark--only 8--although this makes more sense as some of those kids might end up being institutionalized, in-care, etc.Replies: @anon
Look at table 3. The expectation is 15 white kids above 2 sd.
I think I’d also push back on the whole idea that ancient technological innovation is a proxy for a society’s average IQ.
The relatively primitive types of innovation he cites aren’t necessarily the result of brilliant deductive reasoning by high-IQ individuals. Rather, they probably occurred as a result of trial-and-error by specialized workers, and were then spread by simple imitation.
Simply having a high population density based on the early adoption of intensive agriculture would have naturally resulted in technological innovation simply by virtue of: (a) the greater number of economically/technologically specialized people who were likely to stumble on innovations in their fields; and (b) a greater absolute number of high IQ individuals (regardless of the societal mean).
I mean, you could have thousands of bands of 40 hunter gatherers roaming around the savanna with an average IQ of 180, but they aren’t going to invent metallurgy or algebra.
Exchange of ideas with other civilizations is another factor that would make it difficult for pygmies and hottentots to keep up with technological developments elsewhere. However, it doesn't seem to have slowed down the Maya too much; given their relative isolation they had a staggeringly advanced civilization in many respects.
Britons didn't really build in stone until the Normans taught them - very few Saxon stone buildings.
Yet we went from not even building in brick to Newton, Watt, Faraday and Maxwell in a few centuries.
(I'm pleased to know that race doesn't exist, but biogeographic ancestry does.)
It always amuses me when dismiss the achievement of ancients as primitive. Achievement is relative, what is primitive now is an amazing invention and brainstorm back then.
Mesopotamian achievement is impressive as abstract and practical inventions. Countries like India and Greece had mostly abstract contributions such as geometry,logic and philosophy. I forget the Greek guys name but he wrote a working model of a telescope. But God forbid he would put it together as working with hands was considered a dirty job. India suffered from the sane affliction
China and Rome were more hands on in their approach to technology.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/oPxo1VpzR-k/hqdefault.jpgReplies: @Achmed E. Newman, @gregor, @Endgame Napoleon
LOL, likewise.
That’s the only way his dot would be red- they checked the card he carries in his wallet.
Chezis K. Rist.
Nothingburger.
Yeah, that’s an odd one. Taleb is not pro-muslim, being a Lebanese Christian, so he should be painfully aware that the introduction of cousin marriage into those societies had a profoundly dysfunctional effect on IQ.
Egypt, Mesopotamia and the other regions in the Middle East were indeed highly productive and intellectually fertile. The great library at Alexandria being one example. What happened to those cultures exactly?
Good point. Specialization due to weight of numbers is probably the most important factor. I wouldn’t rule out cultural factors such as the prudence of questioning received wisdom.
Exchange of ideas with other civilizations is another factor that would make it difficult for pygmies and hottentots to keep up with technological developments elsewhere. However, it doesn’t seem to have slowed down the Maya too much; given their relative isolation they had a staggeringly advanced civilization in many respects.
This study needs a much bigger sample of mixed race blacks and 100% blacks in order to really see a pattern in the findings. The idea is that we should see a gradient sloping upwards as blacks gain more Caucasian admixture but in that sample, blacks and whites are clustered too far apart and there aren’t enough data points in the in between gradient. They need to augment their sample with some Meghan markles and Alicia keys on one side and some more Oprahs on the far left so we can really see how much cognitive ability dips on the non white side of the spectrum.
Well, plus, isn’t the Pope Catholic? I guess that quip doesn’t really work anymore with the so-called Pope they got now.
I would guess mid-east component would lower IQ (based on Sephardic scores). Ashkenazis may have got the cream of the crop of Italian women.
But it seems like most prior studies have found that the average African-American is more like 20-30% European. https://www.theroot.com/exactly-how-black-is-black-america-1790895185
They both can't be right. Either the study's sample was unrepresentative or the genetic testing services are unrepresentative.Replies: @anon, @Anonymous Jew, @Lot, @ben tillman, @AnotherDad
Remember these are young kids.
Some possible explanations –
– The old ~75%-white paper bag test black class that mostly intermarried doesn’t anymore. This group instead now often mates with whites producing 7/8 whites that self-ID as white unless they go into politics or academia. Or they mate with normal AAs.
– The non-black or white share or self ID’d blacks increases due to black-hispanic/asian children.
– African immigration increases the number of US blacks with no white ancestry. Haitians and Jamaicans also appear to me to have less Euro ancestry than Heritage US Blacks.
Former President and 1st Lady of Haiti:
https://flashhaiti.com/public/business_image/631496611400Michele-Bennett-Haiti-First-Lady-of-Haiti-Jean-Claude-Duvalier-ex-Wife-Fled-to-France-Attorney-Lawyer-Interview-3.jpg
Former prime minister of Jamaica:
https://cdn.britannica.com/s:300x300/20/161620-004-DD01AF04.jpg
The light skinned end up in the US where they benefit from AA - back home they are sometimes considered "white" but here they are "black" which is a good thing nowadays. Harvard is glad to take a 3/4 white "Caribbean Black" with ALMOST competitive SATs vs. some American ghetto black who is as dumb as a rock.Replies: @Buddwing
Also environment plays a role. If they did not grow up in the African American community than an overwhelmingly White person with minor African ancestry will not self identify as Black either. Charlie LeDuff uses this reason to explain why he self identifies himself as White and not Black even though one of his ancestors is a Louisiana Creole, but he grew up in the White community.
Maybe the current state of whiteness evolution is not as differentiated as we thought or the current state of our scientific ability means thata huge cluster around 90% are whats left of whites that wuz kangs in mesopotamia persia etc, but in todays tests its interpreted as non white admix. Am i really rare because the only non northern euro genes i have are 3% neanderthal and my race have been in america for a almost three hundred years as irish/british and I dont think we came on the mayflower at least not above decks
But theres a whole mess between 90-75% who are they they cant all be jeffersons bastards, sexism was as "bad" as "racism" in the past so how would black women with mixed babies enter white society in a way that went unnoted, they would with their children have been pushed back into the black community and bred back into blackside. Its not like they were getting married for generations into white side and suddenly just forget they are mixed
or are these other non white races claiming to be white like hispanics with a bit of amerindian and say both indians with whites and asin white that might have more plausibly been able to racially assimilate?Replies: @Lars Porsena, @DRA
Heh. It’s based on genetic analysis not self-reporting. And european specifically, not white.
If you look at the graph honestly it looks like the mostly-whites are beating the all-whites, especially on the low end. Just to the left it looks like everyone is clustering around the white norm without the extreme tails, and heavier on the high tail than the low tail. The pure-white sample is the most intellectually diverse.
I hate to feed Kevin D. Williamson (AKA Thomm around here) but the graph doesn’t rule it out.
I agree with your point about restricting the ranges. In theory, that’s the most powerful argument against blank slatism. Get enough sample to measure the relationship between iq and cognitive ability within Black identifying people within ranges that span 20%. There is no reason to believe that a black identifying person with 90% african ancestry suffers more “systematic racism” than a black person with 70% African ancestry. If the slope of the cognitive ability regression is linear, consistent and significant across admixture ranges when using a robust sample, that’s once of the strongest arguments in favor of hbd that you could make.
Aha, thanks. I also missed that.
I would read it as be related to sample size. Being many standard deviations out is rare. Given there are many more whites than blacks, I would read it as a skew due to sample size.
Taleb’s comments and ideas on IQ make more sense when you realize he is a “Mediterranean Supremacist.” It’s why he’s so fond of Brooklyn Italians like Fat Tony. They remind him of the Lebanese big men he grew up around.
Also, it is why he claims that Greek/Roman civilization isn’t “white.” They are Mediterranean, not Germanic according to him.
Bell Curve of intelligence.
“Greater metropolitan area” would include the suburbs.
The smart fraction of farmers left for Europe, likely due to permanent drought, in the first wave of immigrants that would replace Cheddar Man.
Barack Obama’s choice to mark only “black” on the 2010 census (and make the results public), despite the ability of respondents to mark as many races as they wanted, was the first indication I ever had as to how awful of a human being he is. His white mother and grandparents raised him – by all accounts, very lovingly – and he chooses to throw them and all other white people under the bus for some anti-white personal and/or political reasons I still am not sure I fully grasp.
https://res.mdpi.com/psych/psych-01-00001/article_deploy/html/images/psych-01-00001-g004-550.jpgTo be clear (I initially assumed it was a group of children around that age) from the paper: "The mean age was 11.75 (SD = 4.88; range = 3–21)." Not sure if it matters that the Black sample averaged almost a year older than the White sample or how different developmental rates might affect the results.
This is also possibly important:It looks like they did not give any PGS results (or did I miss them?). Probably because "we lack
trans-ethnically valid cognitive ability PGS".
There is additional Supplementary Material at OSF: https://osf.io/64y8m/Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome, @Anonymous, @Blastmaster, @Peter Johnson
Dominicans loathe to identify as black. I was once chatting with a redbone Dominican about some bachatta musician, and he said “I’ve never heard of him. Is he black?”
lol.
The greater metropolitan area of a city includes its suburbs.
Just looking at the graph, I’d say the relationship between self described blacks’ smarts and their percent European ancestry is clearly positive from 0% white to 25% white, and flat from 25% to 75%.
For self identified whites, the relationship between percent black and smarts from 75% white to 50% white is counter-intuitively negative — more black equals smarter in this thinly populated range.
So where we can see with our own eyes the trend lines by self-identification within specific ranges, 2 out of 3 don’t support their overall trend, and 2 out of 3 don’t contradict it.
If you truncate the two extremes, 0% and 100%, in your mind and ignore the color of the dots, the trend line is conspicuously positive with respect to percent white, too.
Interesting that there seems to be a cluster of whites with 1/24 African genes.
the most important thing here, which i’ve posted about many times, is determining how african the ‘africans’ in the US actually are. we really do not have any accurate information on their performance on intelligence tests, due to extensive genetic confounding. the previous 50 years of data is all confounded.
slave descended actual west africans in the US do not have a mean performance on wechsler tests of 85. rather, that’s what this broader population of humans who are 18% western european can do. more specifically, 85 is the rounded up number. for easier comparative purposes. after 1970 or so, the number has always been more like 83.
it’s totally possible that the humans who are more like 99% west african can only score about 80 on standardized tests. or maybe less. there is no large scale, fairly accurate study ever done along these lines. although there have been smaller studies which did indeed find that the more african the people were, the less performance they showed on the tests.
why is this so important? it’s important to know how much biological intelligence transfer there is from simply having inherited 18% western european derived genes. how many of those genes are instructions for changing how the skull and brain form and grow? and the resulting effect on behavior.
that could be a small difference, or a big one. it’s important to know. and you can’t know without knowing your baseline numbers. what is the capability of slave descended west africans who are almost totally african? what is the capability of this other, separate, mulatto population of people. subtract the first from the second, and then you get two answers:
1) how much environmental improvement in intelligence test performance is there from growing up in africa, versus growing up in a US city.
2) how much genetic improvement in intelligence test performance is there from being 18% western european instead of 0%.
current orthodoxy, that west africans go from being able to average 70 on intelligence tests to being able to average 85 on intelligence tests, merely from growing up in the US instead of growing up in africa, could simply be wrong. it might be more like a 70 to 80 improvement. or less.
The white side is resolving into a bell curve, but the black side is a mess, probably due to the smaller sample size and the dot placement due to admixture.Replies: @Olorin, @Macumazahn
> 1.1 standard deviation difference, it seems,
You beat me to it.
Ditto on the scatter. Using the “data squint” I can’t shake the visual impression of the blue dots being an upstanding hedgehog gazing upward longingly at the large right tail of the red dots. With an exclamation point over his head.
Or that the population of a place can change over time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)#Destruction
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/f0/29/e5f02968ac608594966f7c53ac8b8089.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sheH8Vp8kxY/TkwnaInAI3I/AAAAAAAAAE0/dPaAVkyco8k/s1600/Slide03.jpg
https://blog.richmond.edu/livesofmaps/files/2014/03/tumblr_n1vnpnsaY11rasnq9o1_1280-4.jpg
https://i.redd.it/dk7ysncdexz11.jpg
Or Mesopotamia, being between the rivers and all, was in a position to hear of, adopt, and make a lasting record of the adoption of technological innovations.
But it seems like most prior studies have found that the average African-American is more like 20-30% European. https://www.theroot.com/exactly-how-black-is-black-america-1790895185
They both can't be right. Either the study's sample was unrepresentative or the genetic testing services are unrepresentative.Replies: @anon, @Anonymous Jew, @Lot, @ben tillman, @AnotherDad
1/8 of the sample comes from Honolulu. Another 1/4 comes from California. The ancestry of the blacks is not limited to European and African.
Some possible explanations -
- The old ~75%-white paper bag test black class that mostly intermarried doesn't anymore. This group instead now often mates with whites producing 7/8 whites that self-ID as white unless they go into politics or academia. Or they mate with normal AAs.
- The non-black or white share or self ID'd blacks increases due to black-hispanic/asian children.
- African immigration increases the number of US blacks with no white ancestry. Haitians and Jamaicans also appear to me to have less Euro ancestry than Heritage US Blacks.Replies: @Jack D, @Jefferson
Both Haiti and Jamaica have light skinned mulatto upper classes:
Former President and 1st Lady of Haiti:
Former prime minister of Jamaica:
The light skinned end up in the US where they benefit from AA – back home they are sometimes considered “white” but here they are “black” which is a good thing nowadays. Harvard is glad to take a 3/4 white “Caribbean Black” with ALMOST competitive SATs vs. some American ghetto black who is as dumb as a rock.
(And I have known Nigerian and Ghanaian engineers and physicists who are really smart as well, with much less European ancestry, if any. They are smart because they are smart, not because of AA. The problem, if there is a problem, is not having more of them.)Replies: @Jack D
https://res.mdpi.com/psych/psych-01-00001/article_deploy/html/images/psych-01-00001-g004-550.jpgTo be clear (I initially assumed it was a group of children around that age) from the paper: "The mean age was 11.75 (SD = 4.88; range = 3–21)." Not sure if it matters that the Black sample averaged almost a year older than the White sample or how different developmental rates might affect the results.
This is also possibly important:It looks like they did not give any PGS results (or did I miss them?). Probably because "we lack
trans-ethnically valid cognitive ability PGS".
There is additional Supplementary Material at OSF: https://osf.io/64y8m/Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome, @Anonymous, @Blastmaster, @Peter Johnson
Regarding hispanics- In the early 90’s my then employer brought in our first Hispanic. Javier had “papers” and was a quick learner. He spoke accented english poorly at first but picked it up rapidly. He could also just about pass for a white if the lights were low. Very high european add mixture. He worked out so well that the owner askes him about his friends, as the business was expanding rapidly and we needed dedicated workers. We ended up with a few white supervisors, Javier as the middleman often translating, and a majority hispanic workforce. I was there for 8 years and generaly speaking, the lighter skinned guys communicated better and learned job skills faster. The guys with more Indian feautures worked well but were in some ways like children. I observed on very dark skinned mexican with almost negro features spraying a slippery feeling metal rust inhibiting agent on his leg. Through gestures he told me that his leg itched and the toxic spray soothed it. Another mexican from deep in the jungle was seen laughing as he was urinating into a drainage tank with the restroom a few steps away. It is frightening to think that these guys are generally brighter than negros and are actually able to build a somewhat passable, though corrupt, culture.
Taleb’s point is reasonable. When the Ziggurat of Ur had been in existence for centuries, the Brits were building Silbury Hill, a big pile of chalk and clay.
Britons didn’t really build in stone until the Normans taught them – very few Saxon stone buildings.
Yet we went from not even building in brick to Newton, Watt, Faraday and Maxwell in a few centuries.
(I’m pleased to know that race doesn’t exist, but biogeographic ancestry does.)
There may be a problem with the small sample size, but black self-identification seems to run out of steam at 60% European on the graph. I really doubt this nowadays when there is so much AA benefit in being black. People who are above around 1/8 black can make plausible claims of being black nowadays if they show even a little bit of black appearance (put aside the Rachel Dolezal and Elizabeth Warren type liars) and tend to do so because it is so much to their benefit. E.g. Meghan Markle.
Where are all the “self-identified” blacks who are between say 12 and 40% black?
Indeed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)#Destruction
Actually, given your point that only blacks were used in the regression, the graph seems to suggests something rather important: that the difference in cognitive ability may be entirely based on genes, not environment.
The line for the sampled blacks goes almost exactly through the mean IQ of the whites. This is the line one would expect if the difference were 100% genetic. How robust that result might be is of course another question.
I'm a huge heriditarian when it comes to the black-white situation--or just individuals--in the US. People here are getting the adequate food. Everyone goes to school and has a chance to read. And the data--all sorts of different tests and studies--is absolutely overwhelming. Most differences we see here in both physical and mental capability are genetic.
However the regression is also consistent with children having crappier environments the less white (that's actually what the X-axis is, "whiteness") or more black they are. And this is in fact the case. There is simply no doubt that blacks do create crappier environments for their kids, than whites. And the talented tenth--relatively more white admixed--blacks create better environments than their less admixed, dumber, poorer, more ghettoized sisters.
It's just that these differences in environment that blacks create versus whites are wholly inadequate to explain the IQ gaps. You can move black families and park them in the same neighborhoods and schools--the gap is still there. You can pull black kids from their families and park them with upper middle class whites--they do better … but the gap is still there.Replies: @Anonymous Jew
Former President and 1st Lady of Haiti:
https://flashhaiti.com/public/business_image/631496611400Michele-Bennett-Haiti-First-Lady-of-Haiti-Jean-Claude-Duvalier-ex-Wife-Fled-to-France-Attorney-Lawyer-Interview-3.jpg
Former prime minister of Jamaica:
https://cdn.britannica.com/s:300x300/20/161620-004-DD01AF04.jpg
The light skinned end up in the US where they benefit from AA - back home they are sometimes considered "white" but here they are "black" which is a good thing nowadays. Harvard is glad to take a 3/4 white "Caribbean Black" with ALMOST competitive SATs vs. some American ghetto black who is as dumb as a rock.Replies: @Buddwing
You know, this is kind of a dumb take. There are many “3/4 white ‘Caribbean Black’ students” with highly competitive SATs. I have known some of these. A particle physicist at SLAC, for example. Also a Haitian whose brother tried to assassinate Papa Doc working on a doctorate at Cornell. There is no reason to believe that these people are somehow not up to the standards of white/Chinese/Jewish students in the same programs. There may not be as many of these people as you or I or Steve might wish, and there may be others admitted with lowered standards, but there is no reason to believe that truly smart people are less smart because of their ancestry. A 6’6″ woman is a tall without regard to her sex and a Caribbean particle physicist is one smart dude. Maybe the tail of the distributions are thin at that level, but the people at that level are likely taller/smarter than you or me.
(And I have known Nigerian and Ghanaian engineers and physicists who are really smart as well, with much less European ancestry, if any. They are smart because they are smart, not because of AA. The problem, if there is a problem, is not having more of them.)
Also possible — Mesopotamian society had a smart fraction, some kind of high-IQ caste that eventually disappeared. This is the theory sometimes advanced to explain Mayan mathematics and temple building.
” These results suggest that outcome differences are being passed on along family lines, and that they are not due to common ethno-cultural factors. This is consistent with an evolutionary-genetic model, but environmental familial models cannot be ruled out at this stage..”
Excuse me . . . if environmental models cannot be ruled out, you’ll have to explicate why your assumption to genetics is any more valid and less a fallacy than those who lean more to environment.
For self identified whites, the relationship between percent black and smarts from 75% white to 50% white is counter-intuitively negative -- more black equals smarter in this thinly populated range.
So where we can see with our own eyes the trend lines by self-identification within specific ranges, 2 out of 3 don't support their overall trend, and 2 out of 3 don't contradict it.
If you truncate the two extremes, 0% and 100%, in your mind and ignore the color of the dots, the trend line is conspicuously positive with respect to percent white, too.
Interesting that there seems to be a cluster of whites with 1/24 African genes.Replies: @Buddwing, @anon, @Reg Cæsar, @AnotherDad
It may be that those clustered around 50% are the first generation of mixed parentage and are likely to be children of smarter people on average for various reasons that may have to do with the sample or may have to do with the underlying population. There is not a very stable population of 50% mixed people in the US, so they probably trend toward the 20% (avg African American) and 99% (Elizabeth Warren) modes over succeeding generations.
This seems right. It’s kind of like with kids – they all learn the basic stuff like walking, talking, simple math, etc., so early development is really about nurture and we can’t reliably measure IQ until they get a bit older and have to do the harder stuff.
If you look from just under the 50% line to around the 62.5% line, there is a zone of overlap between SIRE White and SIRE Black. That seems about right, if you are half to two-thirds European, it is a toss-up as to how you might look outwardly and to how you might choose to identify. But the interesting part is that every kid in that group (6-9 kids, depending on how tight you draw the boundaries) that is above 100 IQ identifies as white, and every kid that is below 100 identifies as black.
Remember PING is a medical study. Probably best to think of it as the catchment area for the hospitals involved. From http://pingstudy.ucsd.edu/
Very few studies actually look at admixture like this. Probably because in their hearts everyone knows what studies like this will find. Because of that it is valuable hard evidence.
Fox the X-axis, it’s % Euro. One minus percentage Euro does not necessarily equal % African.
Of those 80-99% Euro, most are probably part hispanic or asian (i.e. not black).
Of note: this study’s sample consists of people from North Eastern seaboard cities, CA cities, and Honolulu.
And other studies have shown something like 95-98% of white Americans have zero Afro ancestry.
Trelane: Alex, I’ll take Biogeographic Ancestry for $100
Alex Trebek: “This term may be used as a synonym for the pseudoscientific and discredited concept (which has no biological basis) of “race”
Trelane: “Biogeographic”?
Alex Trebek: Nooo, I’m sooory, you did not phrase your answer in the form of a question. Additionally you can go to hell you Trump-supporting racist mutherfucker. Johnny get this racist fuck off the stage.
Volume 1 Issue 1 of the ‘journal’… and this article is the first 25 pages of that first issue.
Probably best to pass on this ‘research’ until it’s replicated.
Maybe readers of JPE (est: 1892) had the same gut reaction to Vol 1 Issue 1 of Econometrica in 1933 – but I doubt it.
Yes, somebody has to be ‘first’ for every journal.
Maybe I’ll start one myself – then my own opinionated scrawlings will be “peer reviewed”. It’ll be easy enough to set up an interface for Amazon’s “Mechanical Turk” to get the peer review done (at 3¢/review).
You’ll be waiting until hell freezes over, or a journal editor decides he wants to get fired, humiliated, and publicly disgraced.
Why do you think discussions of admixture and IQ have until now cited to 80-year-old studies relying on dubious proxies like blood type? This subject is radioactive.
Horace, i agree with you on the sociology. There is an easy life and potentially $$$ for the Melissa Harris Perry’s to go the Melissa Harris Perry route. My single mom neighbor has three kids–all terrific kids btw–who, since she’s pure white, would be in the 50-60% white range DNA wise. (The ex-hubby is pretty black.) They are all obviously mixed but have gone through life, college and career as “black”.
However, the thing to realize here is the X-axis is not a black-white scale. It’s just a %white scale.
Those 50-80% white kids are probably not 50-20% black, but rather some other mix–Asians, Hispanic/native American. In fact, the sample is small, it’s possible none of those dots is your 75-25 white-black.
A lesser issue, but likewise for the blacks. It’s only a scale of white DNA, it doesn’t actually tell you how black they are. There was a girl in my son’s HS class–black\Asian. She was nowhere near my son’s league, but “smart enough”. She won one of those “best of the blacks” scholarships the National Merit folks gave out. (Apparently they have stopped. It was called National Achievement Scholarship Program.) She was half talented-tenth black and half Asian so no more than at most 20% black. Would have charted somewhere near those two highest black dots.
The red dot on the far left is someone like Michael Tirico , the Black announcer who thinks he is white but probably does not know his real father.
For self identified whites, the relationship between percent black and smarts from 75% white to 50% white is counter-intuitively negative -- more black equals smarter in this thinly populated range.
So where we can see with our own eyes the trend lines by self-identification within specific ranges, 2 out of 3 don't support their overall trend, and 2 out of 3 don't contradict it.
If you truncate the two extremes, 0% and 100%, in your mind and ignore the color of the dots, the trend line is conspicuously positive with respect to percent white, too.
Interesting that there seems to be a cluster of whites with 1/24 African genes.Replies: @Buddwing, @anon, @Reg Cæsar, @AnotherDad
There are about 20 blacks with more than 25% white ancestry. It’s a fool’s errand to interpret trends in such a small subsample. The same goes for whites with substantially less than 100% white ancestry, who, by the way, don’t necessarily have any black ancestry–they may be part Asian, for example.
So describe hisself ethnic condition
As all de way Black.
One Drop Rule got yo back
As yo climb to de higher position.Replies: @Ron Mexico, @anon, @Liza, @OFWHAP, @Neil Templeton
I just love BBC Pidgin!
But it seems like most prior studies have found that the average African-American is more like 20-30% European. https://www.theroot.com/exactly-how-black-is-black-america-1790895185
They both can't be right. Either the study's sample was unrepresentative or the genetic testing services are unrepresentative.Replies: @anon, @Anonymous Jew, @Lot, @ben tillman, @AnotherDad
I’d eyeball the median at 12.5% like you’re doing, but the average, up closer to 20%.
I think that’s the key point–median vs. mean.
But the other point is “not representative”. But it cuts both ways–this survey and the results from places like 23 and Me or Ancestry.com.
This survey has the issue ben tillman outlined for you–1/8 from Honolulu, 1/4 from California. Some slice of these blacks will be black-Asian and that decreases the white DNA % relative to the black parent even though the kid looks “lighter” and probably scores higher in IQ.
The DNA services have the issue of a huge selection effect. The really black-blacks tend to be poor and heavily ghettoized. They aren’t the ones running out and paying $100 for DNA analysis so they can sit at the computer and look at their matches. (They might not even know who their daddy is!) These results like 30% white apply to middle class blacks, mostly with intact family trees who are interested in this sort of thing like middle class white people.
My SWAG is overall American blacks are probably around 20% European on average with the median lower, though that figure is subject to change from the competing trends of inter-racial sex (most of it isn’t marriage) and African immigration.
I agree that the patterns are strong enough that formal studies are pretty much unnecessary. But I don’t think civilizational development is an airtight argument. (See the comment right below yours for a related discussion). Theoretically, you could have populations of the same intelligence be at very different points technologically due to population size and other largely accidental reasons. Sure, development itself would in turn probably have selection effects (and in fact seems to have selected for higher intelligence), but, setting that aside for a moment, if we were being really cautious in drawing conclusions we might wonder how “primitive” people would perform if they enjoyed the benefits of advanced society.
I think the really convincing evidence is at this point millions of “primitive” peoples have had the benefit of being born and raised in Western countries. And they still score well below par. Massive subsidization artificially props up their living standards, but doesn’t do much for their brains. Yes, liberals make endless excuses for all this, but the experiment has been run.
On board with this:And this nails it:To any reasonably objective person, there really wouldn't be much of an argument anymore. Some groups moved to the West do well, others do not. Basically we've done the test, the wave packet has collapsed.
Not really Candid.
I’m a huge heriditarian when it comes to the black-white situation–or just individuals–in the US. People here are getting the adequate food. Everyone goes to school and has a chance to read. And the data–all sorts of different tests and studies–is absolutely overwhelming. Most differences we see here in both physical and mental capability are genetic.
However the regression is also consistent with children having crappier environments the less white (that’s actually what the X-axis is, “whiteness”) or more black they are. And this is in fact the case. There is simply no doubt that blacks do create crappier environments for their kids, than whites. And the talented tenth–relatively more white admixed–blacks create better environments than their less admixed, dumber, poorer, more ghettoized sisters.
It’s just that these differences in environment that blacks create versus whites are wholly inadequate to explain the IQ gaps. You can move black families and park them in the same neighborhoods and schools–the gap is still there. You can pull black kids from their families and park them with upper middle class whites–they do better … but the gap is still there.
The journal Psych has just been created ab nihilo. This article by Kirkegaard, Michael A. Woodley of Menie, Robert L. Williams, John Fuerst and Gerhard Meisenberg is the first article published by this journal. No other article has been published yet. When nobody wants to publish your drivel you create your own journal. This has been done before.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/oPxo1VpzR-k/hqdefault.jpgReplies: @Achmed E. Newman, @gregor, @Endgame Napoleon
Yo hol’ up. Doesn’t the red dot mean they identified as white? So wouldn’t it be more like
I think most of that population is 100% white or close to it. Because that subset is larger, it has more individuals close to any ‘Cognitive Ability’ value, but that’s not obvious from the plot except near the extreme values because the plot is saturated in the middle of the right hand side.
For self identified whites, the relationship between percent black and smarts from 75% white to 50% white is counter-intuitively negative -- more black equals smarter in this thinly populated range.
So where we can see with our own eyes the trend lines by self-identification within specific ranges, 2 out of 3 don't support their overall trend, and 2 out of 3 don't contradict it.
If you truncate the two extremes, 0% and 100%, in your mind and ignore the color of the dots, the trend line is conspicuously positive with respect to percent white, too.
Interesting that there seems to be a cluster of whites with 1/24 African genes.Replies: @Buddwing, @anon, @Reg Cæsar, @AnotherDad
Gee, how can you ignore the choice of red and blue anything these days?
Yeah, this is indefensible. He’s stuck on Arab nationalism of all things, right where he was in the completely pointless fight with Molyneux.
Did Miami get another pro sports team? That looks like its logo, blurred.
Excellent comment Gregor.
On board with this:
And this nails it:
To any reasonably objective person, there really wouldn’t be much of an argument anymore. Some groups moved to the West do well, others do not. Basically we’ve done the test, the wave packet has collapsed.
For self identified whites, the relationship between percent black and smarts from 75% white to 50% white is counter-intuitively negative -- more black equals smarter in this thinly populated range.
So where we can see with our own eyes the trend lines by self-identification within specific ranges, 2 out of 3 don't support their overall trend, and 2 out of 3 don't contradict it.
If you truncate the two extremes, 0% and 100%, in your mind and ignore the color of the dots, the trend line is conspicuously positive with respect to percent white, too.
Interesting that there seems to be a cluster of whites with 1/24 African genes.Replies: @Buddwing, @anon, @Reg Cæsar, @AnotherDad
David, the X-axis is not some sort of African-European DNA sliding scale.
The X-axis is simply–as it says–“European ancestry %”.
And as several folks have noted the sample is 1/8 from Honolulu and 1/4 from California. There are lots of ways to have non-European DNA that do not involve being part African.
That graph looks like a red anteater eating blue ants.
Since all this ultimately goes back to how chilly your ancestors were, who’s right here? Gov. Bevin, or his critics?
Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin Says America Is ‘Getting Soft’ by Closing Schools in Extreme Cold
Cuck rejoinder:
From a year ago: if everybody comes away from Africans with negative impressions, that just means that everybody is crazy.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/16/chinese-investment-into-kenya-is-reportedly-bringing-racism-and-discrimination-with-it.html
So describe hisself ethnic condition
As all de way Black.
One Drop Rule got yo back
As yo climb to de higher position.Replies: @Ron Mexico, @anon, @Liza, @OFWHAP, @Neil Templeton
Mr. Trump told Jack that Truth waren’t sold – straight up –
Cracker lands and family were still in his control.
But big Don’s ear turned to pretty boy Kush,
Spinnin’ fine and fancy tales ’bout de big Koch push.
S’prise! ‘N Cracker Jack drops down to the low pee pole.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/oPxo1VpzR-k/hqdefault.jpgReplies: @Achmed E. Newman, @gregor, @Endgame Napoleon
That lone red dot, surrounded by blue dots, works for CNN.
Or that the place of a population can, as well.
From whom did they adopt it? Certainly not from Germanic tribes?
Fair enough. Why ancient Europeans do the same if it is such a piece of cake.
It always amuses me when dismiss the achievement of ancients as primitive. Achievement is relative, what is primitive now is an amazing invention and brainstorm back then.
Mesopotamian achievement is impressive as abstract and practical inventions. Countries like India and Greece had mostly abstract contributions such as geometry,logic and philosophy. I forget the Greek guys name but he wrote a working model of a telescope. But God forbid he would put it together as working with hands was considered a dirty job. India suffered from the sane affliction
China and Rome were more hands on in their approach to technology.
The white side is resolving into a bell curve, but the black side is a mess, probably due to the smaller sample size and the dot placement due to admixture.Replies: @Olorin, @Macumazahn
Huh? The horizontal axis is %-European, not frequency. Collapse all the blacks to the left-side axis, and all the whites to the right-side axis – then I’d expect to see a bell curve, but it would be in terms of frequency-of-score. No bell curve should be expected here, actually more of a “bow-tie” distribution is expected – which is what my own eye sees in this plot. Admixture is dragging the two centroids ever-closer together. I also see no evidence of a “hybrid vigor” effect – which would be a lot more interesting, if it were to exist.
Rotate the graph 90 degrees clockwise. You can see the samples at the 100 percent European line scattered to the right and left, but forming a solid line in the middle. Then in your mind shake down the admixed white data to add on. Imagine now rotating this graph 90 degrees towards you. The old z axis is a new y axis for number of samples, and the old y axis is a new z axis for IQ standard deviations. There will be a bell curve.
The only uncertainty is how many samples There are on the solid blue line part, but the only reasonable assumption, looking at how they come in from the extremes, is that they gradually increase towards the center.
Seth Benardete R.I.P. was the smartest/wisest man I ever encountered. He wrote papers and books about ancient Greek literature and philosophy and taught at NYU and the New School. His brother Jose, R.I.P. whom I never met wrote a book on infinity published by the Oxford University Press and taught mathematics at Syracuse Univ. Their heritage was Sephardic Turkish. At least in their case, their genetic endowment placed them several S.D. above the average Ashkenazi.
When the Spanish expelled their Jewish population, the Ottoman Sultan at the time extended an invitation for them to migrate to his lands. Basically, what he said was along the lines of "why wouldn't I want this group of smart talented people?"Replies: @Johann Ricke, @Anonymous
Shouldn’t there be a “Liz Warren” band, ‘way ‘way over to the right, at 1-1/1024 European?
And (more generally) bands at 1-1/2^n for White folks who have just one non-European ancestor in the proverbial woodpile…
https://res.mdpi.com/psych/psych-01-00001/article_deploy/html/images/psych-01-00001-g004-550.jpgTo be clear (I initially assumed it was a group of children around that age) from the paper: "The mean age was 11.75 (SD = 4.88; range = 3–21)." Not sure if it matters that the Black sample averaged almost a year older than the White sample or how different developmental rates might affect the results.
This is also possibly important:It looks like they did not give any PGS results (or did I miss them?). Probably because "we lack
trans-ethnically valid cognitive ability PGS".
There is additional Supplementary Material at OSF: https://osf.io/64y8m/Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome, @Anonymous, @Blastmaster, @Peter Johnson
Polygenic indices for behavioral traits such as intelligence, educational attainment, and such do not work reliably across population groups as genetically different as Europeans and Sub-Saharan Africans. The indices rely on an indirect method to identify trait-related genetic differences; if the underlying genetic histories are sufficient different (such as European vs Sub-Saharan African genetic histories) this indirect method is not reliable. In particular the polygenic index method relies on tag-variants and linkage disequilibrium and these are not reliable across very different population groups. The paper talks about it.
It contradicts what I recall from The Bell Curve, which showed blacks having a much broader, flattened bell curve with longer tails of both extremes as compared to whites. It must be due to the smaller numbers of self-identified blacks in this analysis, or maybe the authors’ agenda.
And Obama clearly chose to embrace his black side, by marrying and having children with an American black woman whose ancestry appears to be predominantly West African.
In IQ they do. By a lot. The average IQ of Levantines (classified as white Caucasians by the US Census) is more than a full standard deviation lower than the average IQ of Europeans. And ~0.25 SD lower than black-American IQ:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48d7/843f6ce714a684a93530a0c8b7da65d185db.pdf
OTOH, although Levantines (the Phoenicians) were known in ancient times to have prowess in commerce, no one remarked upon their intellectual abilities, nor those of the Hebrews - the Greeks did all the intellectual heavy lifting in the ancient world (and today they are nothing special - things change). Whatever cognitive advantage the Ashkenazis have is probably the result of eugenic selection for intelligence in the centuries of the diaspora, plus there may have been a founder's effect in that the initial (male) population were international merchants while the dumber Judeans stayed home and tended their olive patches. And luckily, these merchants interbred with Italian girls of at least normal European intelligence instead of what happened when, for example, Spanish men bred with below average Indian women in the New World.Replies: @Bliss
The Bell Curve says no such thing. The general finding is that the black distribution is narrower, but this hasn’t been very rigorously tested.
Listen up, here. I’ll tell yew whut.
Conservative-ism should be compassionate. Mah buddy Karl has a buddy who tol’ me ta say that, so ah did. A lot.
So when we are compassionate with low IQ people, they see that conservative-ism has compassion.
Then their natural conservative-ationism gits them to the polls ta vote conservative.
We’re talkin’ natural conservatives here.
That’d be them purty blue dots on that left-hand side of that there graph. Them natural conservatives.
Y’all clear on all that?
1. Parents checked the wrong box by mistake.
2. Parents checked African-American to make some kind of political point.
3. Child's name was Rachel Dolezal, Jr.
BTW, look at the +2 (SD?) line for IQ and notice how many African Americans are above that line vs. the # of whites.Replies: @Peter Johnson
To answer your (?) the areas within the two curves lines show fitted values +/- 1.96 SD, which is the 95% confidence interval for the fitted values, assuming Gaussian distribution of the estimated coefficient’s sampling error.
Yes, the goal posts need to be moved once again.
https://imgix.bustle.com/rehost/2016/9/13/58863639-c7db-4000-83fc-d0ae4cff529a.jpg?w=970&h=546&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format&q=70Replies: @Billy Plato, @ben tillman
Yes, you are correct. I thought of that after I posted.
Another one I thought of:
https://everyrecordtellsastory.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/the-jerk-steve-martin.jpg
Egypt, Mesopotamia and the other regions in the Middle East were indeed highly productive and intellectually fertile. The great library at Alexandria being one example. What happened to those cultures exactly?Replies: @Anonymous, @gregor
LOL, the library of Alexandria was constructed by Greeks for Greeks. The majority of the books were also Greek. The city of Alexandria was also constructed by Greeks for Greeks.
From Breitbart:Interestingly, this is the same president of the EU Parliament who featured in this iSteve blog from July 2017: EU Parliament President: African Exodus to Europe Threatens Disaster of "Biblical Proportions"
Why the change of tune? Maybe he was persuaded by other EU bigwigs who convinced him Europe will die without a giant dose of enrichment.See:Replies: @BB753
“Why the change of tune? ”
Blackmail? Orders from his party? Politicians work that way. They lack true convictions or ideas.
Probably best to pass on this 'research' until it's replicated.
Maybe readers of JPE (est: 1892) had the same gut reaction to Vol 1 Issue 1 of Econometrica in 1933 - but I doubt it.
Yes, somebody has to be 'first' for every journal.
Maybe I'll start one myself - then my own opinionated scrawlings will be "peer reviewed". It'll be easy enough to set up an interface for Amazon's "Mechanical Turk" to get the peer review done (at 3¢/review).Replies: @Keypusher, @Peter Johnson
Probably best to pass on this ‘research’ until it’s replicated.
You’ll be waiting until hell freezes over, or a journal editor decides he wants to get fired, humiliated, and publicly disgraced.
Why do you think discussions of admixture and IQ have until now cited to 80-year-old studies relying on dubious proxies like blood type? This subject is radioactive.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48d7/843f6ce714a684a93530a0c8b7da65d185db.pdfReplies: @Jack D
Today’s Levantines are not the same people as the Levantines of 2,000 years ago. First there was the conquest by Arabs from the south and then there has been a lot of admixture with African slaves. And just like certain aspects of Ashkenazi culture appear to have been eugenic over time, there are aspects of Arab culture that appear to be dysgenic. Nor are these places uniform – if you look at Lebanon, you have what is probably an above average Christian Maronite population up in the mountains (judging by their great success in the diaspora – in Latin America really rich people are as likely, maybe more likely to be Maronite as Jewish) and then you have the Shiite peasants in the south who are as dumb as rocks (but reproduce like rabbits and have demographically overwhelmed the Christians).
OTOH, although Levantines (the Phoenicians) were known in ancient times to have prowess in commerce, no one remarked upon their intellectual abilities, nor those of the Hebrews – the Greeks did all the intellectual heavy lifting in the ancient world (and today they are nothing special – things change). Whatever cognitive advantage the Ashkenazis have is probably the result of eugenic selection for intelligence in the centuries of the diaspora, plus there may have been a founder’s effect in that the initial (male) population were international merchants while the dumber Judeans stayed home and tended their olive patches. And luckily, these merchants interbred with Italian girls of at least normal European intelligence instead of what happened when, for example, Spanish men bred with below average Indian women in the New World.
The IQ of Lebanon, which is by far the most Christian nation in MENA and also the “whitest”, is 3 points lower than the Black American IQ and 9 points lower than the IQ of Sierra Leone in West Africa which is almost 100% black. Explain that away.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Jack D
(And I have known Nigerian and Ghanaian engineers and physicists who are really smart as well, with much less European ancestry, if any. They are smart because they are smart, not because of AA. The problem, if there is a problem, is not having more of them.)Replies: @Jack D
Anecdote is not the singular of data. The total # of blacks in the US each year who score above 700 on their math SAT’s is around 1,000 (vs 50,000 whites). This includes the 3/4 white Caribbean blacks and Nigerian immigrant geniuses that you speak of – in fact they are probably much of that 1,000.
http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html
And yet the black enrollment of Harvard is around 15% (and other top 50 schools similar) so they are reaching down way below their cutoff for whites and Asians in order to fill those slots. Now somewhere in that 15% there are some individuals that are truly qualified and would be there in any event, but maybe 80% or more of them are there because of AA and are less qualified than their white classmates. Absent AA, the Harvard class would be maybe 2% black. If you refuse to understand this, you are in denial. This is just a simple fact. We can debate what the cause of this gap is, but the gap is real whether you recognize it or not.
See also the graph at the top of this thread and in particular the dots above the +2SD above average line. You’ll note that there are ZERO self identified African Americans in that region, while there are quite a few dots for whites.
To read many of the comments here one could conclude that high-achieving blacks are theoretical dots on (or absent from) a scatterchart, rather than real people one encounters. I try to keep these people in mind when writing any comments.Replies: @Jack D
https://www.unz.com/isteve/if-harvard-had-colorblind-admissions-its-black-share-would-fall-from-15-8-to-0-9/
That’s obviously a sample of 1. But in general what has happened is that while the true Sephardim are descended from the Jewish refugees from Iberia, “Sephardic” has grown to mean all non-Ashkenazic Jews, including those from places like Yemen, many of whom look a lot like other Yemenite, who in turn look a lot like Africans. So average “Sephardic” IQ seems to be rather low, but if you look at the Jews who are truly Sephardic (this includes the Jews of Turkey), there are, at least anecdotally, a lot of very intelligent people among them.
When the Spanish expelled their Jewish population, the Ottoman Sultan at the time extended an invitation for them to migrate to his lands. Basically, what he said was along the lines of “why wouldn’t I want this group of smart talented people?”
Did the Sephardi arrive to Spain from branch of the Ashkenazi?
What happened to the Sephardi after they left Spain? Did the assimilate with Gentiles? With Turks? With Ashkenazis?
It’s interesting that in the mixed ancestry zone, for similar amounts of the same ancestry, people with higher intelligence are identified as white and people with lower intelligence identify as black.
I see several possible explanations:
1. Even for similar amounts of white ancestry, people received unequal amounts of high intelligence genes. Smarter people are more likely to be accepted (or make a place for themselves) in white society and more likely to be rejected from black society for acting too smart. So they tend to see themselves as white(r).
2. The identification is strictly by skin color. People like lighter-colored babies more and encourage them more, later on teachers and classmates are less likely to stereotype them into strong but dumb roles, so they grow up with higher self-esteem and see themselves as smart people (or at least do not see being smart as bad). In turn, this helps them actually be smarter.
3. The genes or factors for intelligence are related to those for skin color. Given the same ancestry mixture, some people inherit both and others inherit neither.
To settle this question, it would be good to control not only for ancestry percentage, but also for actual skin tone. Does anyone know of any study which already settled this question?
My point is not a statement about distributions, but about tone. When you say “Harvard is glad to take a 3/4 white “Caribbean Black” with ALMOST competitive SATs vs. some American ghetto black who is as dumb as a rock,” capitalizing the word “almost” implies that there are unable to find such students with actual competitive SATs. If you had not capitalized the word I would not have responded.
To read many of the comments here one could conclude that high-achieving blacks are theoretical dots on (or absent from) a scatterchart, rather than real people one encounters. I try to keep these people in mind when writing any comments.
Probably best to pass on this 'research' until it's replicated.
Maybe readers of JPE (est: 1892) had the same gut reaction to Vol 1 Issue 1 of Econometrica in 1933 - but I doubt it.
Yes, somebody has to be 'first' for every journal.
Maybe I'll start one myself - then my own opinionated scrawlings will be "peer reviewed". It'll be easy enough to set up an interface for Amazon's "Mechanical Turk" to get the peer review done (at 3¢/review).Replies: @Keypusher, @Peter Johnson
It is a real shame that anyone writing truthfully about HBD gets shunned by the mainstream academic publishing institutions. The Kirkegaard et al. article is actually of very good quality, better quality than a fair percentage of those in the mainstream journals. A real shame that HBD evidence cannot be published in the mainstream academic journals in the current political environment. Perhaps this new journal will survive and prosper by exploiting this niche of censored research. The academic publishing industry is changing dramatically due to the internet.
Actually, probably less than 1.0%. Especially if you only count full Blacks (let’s say at least 75%).
https://www.unz.com/isteve/if-harvard-had-colorblind-admissions-its-black-share-would-fall-from-15-8-to-0-9/
I'm a huge heriditarian when it comes to the black-white situation--or just individuals--in the US. People here are getting the adequate food. Everyone goes to school and has a chance to read. And the data--all sorts of different tests and studies--is absolutely overwhelming. Most differences we see here in both physical and mental capability are genetic.
However the regression is also consistent with children having crappier environments the less white (that's actually what the X-axis is, "whiteness") or more black they are. And this is in fact the case. There is simply no doubt that blacks do create crappier environments for their kids, than whites. And the talented tenth--relatively more white admixed--blacks create better environments than their less admixed, dumber, poorer, more ghettoized sisters.
It's just that these differences in environment that blacks create versus whites are wholly inadequate to explain the IQ gaps. You can move black families and park them in the same neighborhoods and schools--the gap is still there. You can pull black kids from their families and park them with upper middle class whites--they do better … but the gap is still there.Replies: @Anonymous Jew
Blacks with family incomes over $200K barely outscore poor Whites (under $20K) on the SAT. And Blacks in the $160-200K income range actually score lower than poor Whites.
There’s also the (Scarr/Weingberg) Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study…
To read many of the comments here one could conclude that high-achieving blacks are theoretical dots on (or absent from) a scatterchart, rather than real people one encounters. I try to keep these people in mind when writing any comments.Replies: @Jack D
See Anonymous Jew’s response. Perhaps 14 of 15 blacks at Harvard are ALMOST competitive and 1 is truly competitive. It is an unfortunate side effect of Affirmative Action that that 1 person (who you will, by definition, rarely encounter in real life – you’ll meet 50 brilliant white people before you meet even 1 of those) is lumped in with the other 14 and suspected of not being fully qualified. I hope someday that we do away with affirmative action so that whenever I meet a credentialed black I will have no reason to suspect his credentials, but that day is not here yet.
As you say, once you get to know that individual, you may get past the stereotypes and come to understand that that person is one of the 1 in 15 who really deserves to be there on merit, but it’s not wrong to make the initial assumption that they aren’t based on probabilities.
Humans operate on probabilities – if I am walking down a dark street at night and two black teens wearing hoodies approach me, it’s entirely possible that they are honor students who are checking to see if they can help this older person carry his heavy iPhone, but the odds are that they aren’t.
On top of that there's mismatch theory, which is more common sense than theory. I knew an LSAT tutor who got a hold of Harvard's admit/deny report and it included race (this was 17 years ago?). White males generally needed 170+ to get admitted, while Blacks would usually get in at around 164-165. It's really a shame, too, because a person that can score 164 on the LSAT and has decent work ethic will usually make a pretty good attorney in a regional city. Maybe not a Manhattan white-shoe, complex corporate transactions attorney, but someone that can competently handle the legal needs of a medium sized business in Charlotte. This practice trickles downward, so you have to assume that a newly-minted Black lawyer is on par with a graduate from a law school one tier down. This doesn't help anyone except the Black political elite.Replies: @Jack D
Still funny!
Another one I thought of:
As others have noted “affirmative action is the only policy that makes it rational to discriminate on the basis of race.”
On top of that there’s mismatch theory, which is more common sense than theory. I knew an LSAT tutor who got a hold of Harvard’s admit/deny report and it included race (this was 17 years ago?). White males generally needed 170+ to get admitted, while Blacks would usually get in at around 164-165. It’s really a shame, too, because a person that can score 164 on the LSAT and has decent work ethic will usually make a pretty good attorney in a regional city. Maybe not a Manhattan white-shoe, complex corporate transactions attorney, but someone that can competently handle the legal needs of a medium sized business in Charlotte. This practice trickles downward, so you have to assume that a newly-minted Black lawyer is on par with a graduate from a law school one tier down. This doesn’t help anyone except the Black political elite.
When the Spanish expelled their Jewish population, the Ottoman Sultan at the time extended an invitation for them to migrate to his lands. Basically, what he said was along the lines of "why wouldn't I want this group of smart talented people?"Replies: @Johann Ricke, @Anonymous
Especially when they had no real political base in his empire, meaning they would be hard put to threaten his grip on the throne, whereas they could certainly help strengthen it by helping his empire grow more prosperous. Whereas the current crop of Middle Easterners, Latin Americans and Africans is numerous and thus politically destabilizing, while contributing less economically, on average, than the existing population, thanks to their relative cognitive deficiencies.
Understood. It would still be interesting to see the results though. A good comparison is height PGS applied to Pygmies. They appear short, but the shortness is underestimated.
I think Jack D was talking about the horizontal 2 grid line on the y axis. I also think him interpreting that as SD is likely to be correct.
Thanks. You diagnosed my misunderstanding correctly.
I am neither mathematician nor philosopher, but the concept of infinity has always fascinated me. So without further ado I Googled the name Jose Bernardete and was able to download “Infinity, An Essay in Metaphysics,” which is a bit too esoteric for my pay grade. Still much of it is readable and understandable for a person of average intelligence. Some time ago the thought struck me that there is no precise number for the present moment. It seems an asymptotic principle is involved because if zero is used as the number for the present moment, what values can be ascribed for the numbers immediately preceding and following zero? At any rate we know the present moment goes by in a flash.
Otherwise, you're on the road to Zeno's Paradox.
On top of that there's mismatch theory, which is more common sense than theory. I knew an LSAT tutor who got a hold of Harvard's admit/deny report and it included race (this was 17 years ago?). White males generally needed 170+ to get admitted, while Blacks would usually get in at around 164-165. It's really a shame, too, because a person that can score 164 on the LSAT and has decent work ethic will usually make a pretty good attorney in a regional city. Maybe not a Manhattan white-shoe, complex corporate transactions attorney, but someone that can competently handle the legal needs of a medium sized business in Charlotte. This practice trickles downward, so you have to assume that a newly-minted Black lawyer is on par with a graduate from a law school one tier down. This doesn't help anyone except the Black political elite.Replies: @Jack D
Where it REALLY hurts (and hurts black people, in particular) is at the other end of this game of musical chairs, where you get to bottom tier law schools and the black law students fall BELOW the threshold where they will ever be able to graduate and pass the bar exam. A high % of black law students who start law school will never pass the bar exam so 1, 2 or 3 years of their lives and someone’s money is wasted on sending them there. I would venture to guess that at bottom tier law schools this includes more than a majority of their black students.
But mismatch is painful even for those who get in at the top. I remember (although at the time I didn’t really understand what was happening) a black fellow law student in my 1st year contracts class practically pleading with me that we should study for the final together. At the time I did it and didn’t really think much about it (it was a little bit odd because we hadn’t really been friends during the semester, just sort of nodding acquaintances), but in retrospect I think he felt that he was in over his head and was was hoping for some of my mojo to rub off on him. I think Amy Wax has said that virtually all of the black law students at Penn are in the bottom half of their class. OTOH, they are useful to the white and Asian students for filling up the bottom end of the curve.
There were some impressive black law students I knew and they didn't like the fact that Boalt Hall-trained African American lawyers were failing the CA bar at high rates.
Yes.
Ironically, the one place where this is probably not 100% true is at Harvard and Yale. All the blacks who would have been in the top half of the class at Penn are at Harvard and Yale (where they make up part of the bottom half of the class) and so on all down the line (instead Penn has Georgetown’s blacks and Georgetown has Emory’s blacks and so on) but the (small % of) blacks who would have gotten into H and Y on their own merit have nowhere higher they can go to get AA benefits and so have a chance of ending up in the top half.
Just consult a table of the standard normal distribution.Replies: @International Jew
I see several possible explanations:
1. Even for similar amounts of white ancestry, people received unequal amounts of high intelligence genes. Smarter people are more likely to be accepted (or make a place for themselves) in white society and more likely to be rejected from black society for acting too smart. So they tend to see themselves as white(r).
2. The identification is strictly by skin color. People like lighter-colored babies more and encourage them more, later on teachers and classmates are less likely to stereotype them into strong but dumb roles, so they grow up with higher self-esteem and see themselves as smart people (or at least do not see being smart as bad). In turn, this helps them actually be smarter.
3. The genes or factors for intelligence are related to those for skin color. Given the same ancestry mixture, some people inherit both and others inherit neither.
To settle this question, it would be good to control not only for ancestry percentage, but also for actual skin tone. Does anyone know of any study which already settled this question?Replies: @Jack D
2 and 3 are highly unlikely.
Academically talented blacks are highly prized commodities in American society because they are so rare – less than 2% of top tier students. They are prized if they show academic promise and are black in any way shape or form – coal black or cafe au lait black or any color black in between. Just like the system is dying for the Great White Defendant, it is also dying for the Clean Well Spoken Black, in both cases because the demand exceeds the supply.
In Africa, there are people who are REALLY REALLY black, like Obama’s father. Much blacker than virtually any American black since most American blacks have at least some white ancestry (compare the # of blue dots at the 0% white line with the number of red dots at the 100% white line). Shiny black, blue black, but some of these folks (like Obama’s father) are of high intelligence. OTOH, there are lighter skinned black such as the Khoisans of S. Africa who are of very low average intelligence even compared to other blacks.
However, color is correlated with intelligence among blacks of mixed race because darker color means less European (high intelligence) ancestry.
Maybe the current state of whiteness evolution is not as differentiated as we thought or the current state of our scientific ability means thata huge cluster around 90% are whats left of whites that wuz kangs in mesopotamia persia etc, but in todays tests its interpreted as non white admix. Am i really rare because the only non northern euro genes i have are 3% neanderthal and my race have been in america for a almost three hundred years as irish/british and I dont think we came on the mayflower at least not above decks
But theres a whole mess between 90-75% who are they they cant all be jeffersons bastards, sexism was as "bad" as "racism" in the past so how would black women with mixed babies enter white society in a way that went unnoted, they would with their children have been pushed back into the black community and bred back into blackside. Its not like they were getting married for generations into white side and suddenly just forget they are mixed
or are these other non white races claiming to be white like hispanics with a bit of amerindian and say both indians with whites and asin white that might have more plausibly been able to racially assimilate?Replies: @Lars Porsena, @DRA
“…in the past so how would black women with mixed babies enter white society in a way that went unnoted, they would with their children have been pushed back into the black community and bred back into blackside.”
Four generations of white fathers in a row and the fifth will be about as black as Elizabeth Warren is Indian. Two generations could have taken one’s linage from field worker to a 3/4 white house slave, then only a hop, skip and a jump to living in the north.
Folks that know you and your opinions aren’t going to talk too candidly to you about what they may have found in their 23 and Me results… Do you know who all of your ancestors were six generations ago?
There are some other effects of mismatch that should be noted. It destroys the concept of minimum standards. Since African Americans constitute the bulk of the marginal students, failing students outright for poor performance would disproportionately hit African Americans, so they are given low passing grades. This means that just about any white student can graduate with low effort, which harder-working white students resent (at least they did at Boalt Hall in the 80s), and it allows some black students at the bottom to get by without the effort that they could put forth with better motivation. All these students would likely have been better off at a lower-tier school.
There were some impressive black law students I knew and they didn’t like the fact that Boalt Hall-trained African American lawyers were failing the CA bar at high rates.
Four generations of white fathers in a row and the fifth will be about as black as Elizabeth Warren is Indian. Two generations could have taken one's linage from field worker to a 3/4 white house slave, then only a hop, skip and a jump to living in the north.
Folks that know you and your opinions aren't going to talk too candidly to you about what they may have found in their 23 and Me results... Do you know who all of your ancestors were six generations ago?Replies: @Jack D
But the color line operated as a sort of one way sieve. The result is that virtually all black people in America have white ancestry but only a small % of white people have black ancestry. Crossing the color line happened but it was pretty rare.
Richard Mentor Johnson, Martin van Buren's VP, had his political career derailed by his attachement to Julia Chinn, an octoroon.
The late Carol Channing was a quadroon or octoroon and she starred in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.
It was a long road back to white.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2jTAueCy4O0Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous
OTOH, although Levantines (the Phoenicians) were known in ancient times to have prowess in commerce, no one remarked upon their intellectual abilities, nor those of the Hebrews - the Greeks did all the intellectual heavy lifting in the ancient world (and today they are nothing special - things change). Whatever cognitive advantage the Ashkenazis have is probably the result of eugenic selection for intelligence in the centuries of the diaspora, plus there may have been a founder's effect in that the initial (male) population were international merchants while the dumber Judeans stayed home and tended their olive patches. And luckily, these merchants interbred with Italian girls of at least normal European intelligence instead of what happened when, for example, Spanish men bred with below average Indian women in the New World.Replies: @Bliss
Nonsense. Lebanon is 40% Christian yet it’s IQ is 82 which is lower than the IQ of Yemen (85) which is 99.9% Muslim. You are just making things up.
The IQ of Lebanon, which is by far the most Christian nation in MENA and also the “whitest”, is 3 points lower than the Black American IQ and 9 points lower than the IQ of Sierra Leone in West Africa which is almost 100% black. Explain that away.
This reminds me of when the folks at (Communist Party member) Larry Klein's shop told me (and my classmates at Wharton in the '70s) that the USSR would overtake the US economically some time in the 1990s. They showed us a graph where the US economy was growing at X% and the Soviet economy was growing at X+Y% so it was just a matter of simple math (no Communist ideology required) that the Soviet economy would pass us when those two lines met. Somehow it didn't occur to them that the Soviets would lie about their economic statistics.Replies: @Bliss
Consider the existence of the word “Octoroon.” This is a word for someone whose closest black ancestor is a great grandparent. In a Sapir-Whorf sense, this means that 12% black is a thing tracked by society.
Richard Mentor Johnson, Martin van Buren’s VP, had his political career derailed by his attachement to Julia Chinn, an octoroon.
The late Carol Channing was a quadroon or octoroon and she starred in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.
It was a long road back to white.
Egypt, Mesopotamia and the other regions in the Middle East were indeed highly productive and intellectually fertile. The great library at Alexandria being one example. What happened to those cultures exactly?Replies: @Anonymous, @gregor
Someone actually brought that up. Taleb”s response:
The IQ of Lebanon, which is by far the most Christian nation in MENA and also the “whitest”, is 3 points lower than the Black American IQ and 9 points lower than the IQ of Sierra Leone in West Africa which is almost 100% black. Explain that away.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Jack D
the Shiite peasants in the south who are as dumb as rocks
They stood up to the Israelis in 2006 pretty smartly.
Oxford geneticist, Bryan Sykes, found black ancestry in white Americans to be widespread, especially in the South. Every white southerner he tested had some black ancestry. Go to 4:55 on this video:
Or in other words, 29 out of 30 white Americans have little or no African ancestry. In S. Carolina and Louisiana it's only 7 out of 8 (so up in Mass. and Maine it's probably more like 49 out of 50).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2jTAueCy4O0Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/12/genetic-study-reveals-surprising-ancestry-many-americans
Or in other words, 29 out of 30 white Americans have little or no African ancestry. In S. Carolina and Louisiana it’s only 7 out of 8 (so up in Mass. and Maine it’s probably more like 49 out of 50).
The IQ of Lebanon, which is by far the most Christian nation in MENA and also the “whitest”, is 3 points lower than the Black American IQ and 9 points lower than the IQ of Sierra Leone in West Africa which is almost 100% black. Explain that away.Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Jack D
You are taking these numbers like they are gospel. These statistics have to be taken with a big grain of salt. For most countries, there are no reliable statistics. Yemen doesn’t even have a functioning government – do you really think they are doing IQ testing on all their kids?
This reminds me of when the folks at (Communist Party member) Larry Klein’s shop told me (and my classmates at Wharton in the ’70s) that the USSR would overtake the US economically some time in the 1990s. They showed us a graph where the US economy was growing at X% and the Soviet economy was growing at X+Y% so it was just a matter of simple math (no Communist ideology required) that the Soviet economy would pass us when those two lines met. Somehow it didn’t occur to them that the Soviets would lie about their economic statistics.
What you are is a bullshit artist. Pulling numbers out of your ass and passing them off as gospel truth.
Here’s another list of national IQs, by Richard Lynn an icon of HBD, that finds the IQ of Lebanon at 82 and neighboring Jordan (96% Muslim) at 85. He calculates Yemen’s IQ at 83:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48d7/843f6ce714a684a93530a0c8b7da65d185db.pdf
You need to show us where you learned that Christian Lebanese are way more intelligent than Muslim Lebanese, or admit you lied. Then you need to tell us why the hell you are such a shameless liar.
This reminds me of when the folks at (Communist Party member) Larry Klein's shop told me (and my classmates at Wharton in the '70s) that the USSR would overtake the US economically some time in the 1990s. They showed us a graph where the US economy was growing at X% and the Soviet economy was growing at X+Y% so it was just a matter of simple math (no Communist ideology required) that the Soviet economy would pass us when those two lines met. Somehow it didn't occur to them that the Soviets would lie about their economic statistics.Replies: @Bliss
They are gospel to IQists/HBDers. Aren’t you one of them?
What you are is a bullshit artist. Pulling numbers out of your ass and passing them off as gospel truth.
Here’s another list of national IQs, by Richard Lynn an icon of HBD, that finds the IQ of Lebanon at 82 and neighboring Jordan (96% Muslim) at 85. He calculates Yemen’s IQ at 83:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/48d7/843f6ce714a684a93530a0c8b7da65d185db.pdf
You need to show us where you learned that Christian Lebanese are way more intelligent than Muslim Lebanese, or admit you lied. Then you need to tell us why the hell you are such a shameless liar.
Respectfully, the phrase “the numbers immediately preceding and following zero” doesn’t make sense mathematically, unless you resort to infinitesimals and non-standard analysis.
Otherwise, you’re on the road to Zeno’s Paradox.
https://imgix.bustle.com/rehost/2016/9/13/58863639-c7db-4000-83fc-d0ae4cff529a.jpg?w=970&h=546&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format&q=70Replies: @Billy Plato, @ben tillman
Yes, not quite as funny, but well-reasoned.
I printed out the study and will find out...Replies: @Anonymous
A complication is that the Black 75% is very unlikely to be a representative sample of Blacks. The founding population of US Blacks after all were slaves.
Do you mean Mizrahi?
When the Spanish expelled their Jewish population, the Ottoman Sultan at the time extended an invitation for them to migrate to his lands. Basically, what he said was along the lines of "why wouldn't I want this group of smart talented people?"Replies: @Johann Ricke, @Anonymous
Is he quoted somewhere saying this?
Did the Sephardi arrive to Spain from branch of the Ashkenazi?
What happened to the Sephardi after they left Spain? Did the assimilate with Gentiles? With Turks? With Ashkenazis?
Some possible explanations -
- The old ~75%-white paper bag test black class that mostly intermarried doesn't anymore. This group instead now often mates with whites producing 7/8 whites that self-ID as white unless they go into politics or academia. Or they mate with normal AAs.
- The non-black or white share or self ID'd blacks increases due to black-hispanic/asian children.
- African immigration increases the number of US blacks with no white ancestry. Haitians and Jamaicans also appear to me to have less Euro ancestry than Heritage US Blacks.Replies: @Jack D, @Jefferson
“– The old ~75%-white paper bag test black class that mostly intermarried doesn’t anymore. This group instead now often mates with whites producing 7/8 whites that self-ID as white unless they go into politics or academia. Or they mate with normal AAs.”
Also environment plays a role. If they did not grow up in the African American community than an overwhelmingly White person with minor African ancestry will not self identify as Black either. Charlie LeDuff uses this reason to explain why he self identifies himself as White and not Black even though one of his ancestors is a Louisiana Creole, but he grew up in the White community.
How did he know you had mojo?
Actually, the opposite is the case, at least on mathematical considerations. The ratio of 115-IQ white people to 115-IQ black people is higher than the ratio at IQ 100. The ratio at IQ 130 is, in turn, higher than at 115. At 145 the ratio is like 1000 to 1.
Just consult a table of the standard normal distribution.
Just consult a table of the standard normal distribution.Replies: @International Jew
Intuitively, think about it like this. In the population as a whole, you’ve got a white:black ratio of about 6:1. Above IQ 100, you still have half the white population but only about 1/6 of the black population (assuming an even 1-sigma difference between the white and black average IQs). So at IQ 100+, the white:black ratio is 6/2:1/6 = 18:1. Above IQ 115 you’ve still got 1/6 of the white population, but only 1/50th of the black population, so now you’re at a white:black ratio of 6/6:1/50=300:1. And we’re still at IQ 115 — not even Emory Law School territory.
I was wrong in my previous post: we reach a 1000:1 ratio long before IQ 145. More like at maybe IQ 125. IQ 145 is the 99.9th percentile for whites and the published tables don’t even go to 4-sigma so I can’t tell you offhand how many IQ 145 blacks there are but it’s not at all inconceivable that the number is zero.
D-oh, 6/6:1/50 = 50:1.
These relative frequency computations are useful and revealing, but keep in mind that in the extremes of their distributions phenotypes like measured intelligence do not conform exactly to a normal distribution. So this limits the reliability of relative frequency predictions when discussing e.g. one-in-a-thousand extreme values.
You’re quite right, in fact the best-case scenario (for Jack D’s argument) would be a distribution just at the Chebyshev’s inequality, where the math works out in his favor!
Still, IQ 115 and 130 are not extreme tail outcomes. And when you really get well into the tail, say IQ 145, the number of blacks is, if anything, less than the Gaussian distribution would suggest. That is, there should be at least a handful of blacks with IQ 145 (which is 4-sigma for them). But, to borrow from Fermi, “Where are they”? Wouldn’t we have heard of them? Wouldn’t they be famous? An IQ 145 individual would be valedictorian at Harvard, or a top working physicist. And yet highest of the highest black high-achievers we see are people like Neil Degrasse Tyson, Roland Fryer, or Barack Obama. If there were any really good black physicists, economists or legal scholars, we wouldn’t be talking about such Affirmative Action-propelled mediocrities.
No, this figure is for the African-American subset only. The x-axis is indeed an African-European scale, since these two ancestries sum to ~100% for this subset. A plot with European% for a population with >2 ancestries is not very interpretable, which is why we didn’t use it. We did supply one for 3-way split populations (African-Amerindian-European), which allows us to include most Hispanics. This requires a 3d plot to show, as we did.
I think hip hop culture is keeping a lot of them from hitting the books hard. A few years ago a Nigerian researcher was tasked to find out why even in affluent suburbs blacks did significantly worse than their white peers. Most of this gap imo is genetic, but he found out, that even the sons of black judges, doctors etc. Wanted to become rappers or professional athletes and spent most of their time watching TV, playing video games or playing sports. Thomas Sowell once wtote, that he had a lot of affluent black friends, who tried to uplift the kids of their ghetto relatives by sending them to private school etc. According to him, one teen had an iq of 130, but he soon went back to his ghetto, because ghetto life was more appealing to him.
That was John Ogbu.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2jTAueCy4O0Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous
Same in South Africa. From my experience with ‘white’ South Africans I get the impression that the Apartheid government in the old days had a very loose definition of ‘white’. I suppose they needed the numbers.