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Big Serb Nikola Jokic Wins NBA MVP Award Again
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From CBS News:

Nikola Jokic has won the 2021-22 NBA MVP award, taking the league’s top individual honor for the second consecutive year, per ESPN. Jokic’s back-to-back MVP awards match the feat accomplished by fellow finalist Giannis Antetokounmpo during the 2018-19 and ’19-20 seasons. The third finalist, Philadelphia 76ers center Joel Embiid, has never won the award.

Aside from assists, Jokic managed to improve upon his per-game averages in every major statistical category in the regular season. He finished with career highs in points (27.1), rebounds (13.8), blocks (0.9) and steals (1.5) per game.

Jokic averaged 7.9 assists per game, which is a lot for a center.

Balkan athletes have really distinguished themselves in recent years.

 
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  1. Vaxxed, or unvaxxed?

    • Thanks: JimDandy
  2. George says:

    I don’t think he should be an MVP until he renounces Putin and thanks the US of A and little buddy NATO for liberating Serbia from Yugoslavia.

  3. Somewhere, the Hick from French Lick is smiling.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  4. The NBA is only 17 percent white so there could be some grumbling — like when all 10 Best Director nominees are men

    • Replies: @Barnard
    , @Buffalo Joe
  5. I think balkans might be the most physically perfected type of human. Central Slavs have beautiful women but ugly men. Nordics are phenomenal when they get it right, but the average Nordic is no Ursula andres. Walk down the street in Serbia and Croatia and you will see that young Melania would scarcely stand out. The other Mediterraneans became shorter. The people of the British isles are brittle looking; pronounced wrinkles at and rotting teeth by their 30s.

    But the balkans are the land of tall athletic men and beautiful women. I mentioned the beauty of the Balkan people in conversation once with the wrong person, a flamboyant gay man of Germanic descent. He told me about how he had travelled the world and no men were as impressive and consistent as the balkans. Apparently he met no disappointments there when engaged in his activities.

  6. Gore 2004 says:

    A lot of white liberals and BLM people must be angry right now….how can a white man win the NBA’s Most Valuable Player award? It doesn’t make sense.

    A white man in the Black space? It doesn’t make sense.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    , @JimDandy
  7. Sailer – the pundit whose name one must dare not speak.

    Shocked to find an actual link to Sailer elsewhere, in Darren Beattie’s Revolver News:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/will-randos-rule-the-internet-if-elon-musk-wins/

    Then again, Beattie is at least as heterodox as Sailer:

    • LOL: Another Canadian
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  8. Prosa123 says:
    @Spangel226

    Physical attractiveness may be at its peak in the Balkans, I don’t know but for the sake of argument let’s assume it’s true, but when it comes to strength, athleticism and general physical robustness, West Africa leads the world.

  9. @Prosa123

    You can’t deny the prowess of west African men, but it comes at the expense of the beauty of their women (who are also feats of brute physical prowess).

    The balkans are the golden ratio of physically powerful to gracile looking.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    , @northeast
  10. Barnard says:
    @Known Fact

    Looking up the NBA Playoffs, I see Denver lost in the first round 4-1 to Golden State. It seems rare historically for the MVP to come from team that wasn’t expected to do well in the postseason. From a quick check there doesn’t seem to be any pushback against him winning. He has to be totally carrying the team.

    • Replies: @Known Fact
    , @anon
  11. Just want to give a shout out to the Croatian soccer superstar Luka Modric.

    Now age 36, Modric has driven Real Madrid to 17 trophies including 4 European super League championships, and they have just got into the final again giving him a chance to win his 5th trophy.

    Modric started out playing for Dinamo Zagreb, then spent 4 years at Tottenham Hotspur in London, before moving to Real Madrid 10 years ago and bringing an era of massive success to the club, even though more attention has been paid to his prolific goalscoring teammate Cristiano Ronaldo.

    The only blots on his career have been occasional allegations of involvement with organized crime, bribery, and tax evasion, but, hey, he is Croatian, so I don’t know what people expect, and you don’t get to come from nowhere to be a multimillionaire without breaking a few eggs.

    Anyway, helluva global superstar.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    , @Dave Pinsen
  12. @ginger bread man

    Sailer’s dream team: Luca Doncic and Nikola Jokic wearing the same jersey. Which city’s oligarch owner has the money and and the attitude for this maneuver?

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
  13. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:
    @Prosa123

    Balkan NBA stars tend to be less high-jumping and fast-accelerating than black stars, but more coordinated.

  14. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spangel226

    Well, there’s a good deal of phenotypic variety in the Balkans, including within single nationalities. (What does a Romanian look like?) One thing a lot of Serb athletes do have in common are tall heads with deep and close-set eyes: Jokić, Đoković, UFC fighters Rakić and Todorović.

  15. @Prosa123

    when it comes to strength, athleticism and general physical robustness, West Africa leads the world.

    For I dipt into the future, far as human eye could see,
    Saw the vision of the world, and all the wonder that would be

    [MORE]

    All hail the master race!

  16. Ralph L says:

    And he does it without tattoos and long, tortured hair.

  17. Balkan players have distinguished themselves in the NBA in much the same fashion as Czech, Slovak and Russian hockey players have distinguished themselves in the NHL–and this is leaving out the Finns and Swedes (and now, increasingly, Germans). It is interesting how two North American sports have served as a showcase for European talent. Both basketball and hockey have become international sports. Baseball as well, which is increasingly dominated by so-called “Latinos” and East Asians.

    • Replies: @Slugsmagee
  18. @Known Fact

    KF, but his brother is an aspiring rapper. Just kidding.

  19. @Spangel226

    Spangel, so ugly men + beautiful women = more beautiful women. How does that work?

    • Replies: @Spangel226
    , @Erik Sieven
  20. @Gore 2004

    Gore, Twice, back to back.

    • Agree: Gore 2004
  21. anon[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Jokic’s team got bounced out in the first round. Not much of a MVP

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
  22. @Buffalo Joe

    Don’t ask me. It’s how it works in Thailand too.

  23. JimDandy says:
    @Gore 2004

    Steve Nash went back-to-back about 15 years ago, and I remember a little grumbling. And the next year it was Dirk, so three white guys in a row. Wow!

  24. Brutusale says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Excellent midfielder, but he seldom started his first year with Real Madrid, as Ozil, Khedira and Alonso we hard to dislodge.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
  25. @Buffalo Joe

    in general attractive women often have non-attractive (too feminine) brothers and attractive men often have non-attractive (too masculine) brothers.

  26. @Brutusale

    Yes, he really came to my attention in November 2007 when Croatia beat England 3-2 on a rainy night in London to knock England out of the European championships.

    In that game Beckham came on as a substitute, Lampard scored with a penalty, and Crouchy scored a great goal for England controlling the ball with his chest and volleying home.

    That was before Modric went to Madrid, but he was already a player of great quality.

    But what a career he has had, and still playing at the very top level at 36 years of age.

  27. @Spangel226

    Nordics are phenomenal when they get it right, but the average Nordic is no Ursula andres.

    Do you have a stash of dusty old Playboys in the attic?

    The appeal of the bombshells of the Sixties– Andress, Elke Sommer, Raquel Welch– always mystified me. They were models not only in front of the still camera but in front of the motion picture camera as well. Total stiffs, the female counterpart of Robert Redford.

    Ursula Andress is Swiss, with all the charm and vivacity that race is known for. Now, Ann-Margret and Inger Stevens were folks you’d want to spend some time with. Those two were born in Sweden, but grew up in America.

    Inger Stevens was a product of both Manhattans– her father taught at Columbia and Kansas State. Ann-Margret’s birthplace has all of 56 residents today. There were probably more guests at the notorious Bye Bye, Birdie wrap party where Paul Lynde announced that he was the only man there who didn’t want to 🍆 her.

    All these women except Inger are alive today in their 80s, as are the Strouse/Adams team who did the Birdie score, at 93 and 97.

  28. @Bardon Kaldian

    Thank you for this reminder. I was going to suggest similar to the claim W. Africans are strongest. I have a friend who used to do video (late 90s, early 00s) editing for Svend Karlsen, 1 time WSM, and I have watched and spoken with Magnus ver Magnusson, Juoko Ahola, et al at various strongman events. These dudes have superhuman strength and come from small populations, unlike our 40 million blacks, so are probably better representative of their country with regards to strength.

  29. @anon

    That’s why he won the regular season MVP and someone else will win the playoffs MVP.

    • Thanks: Catdompanj
  30. @New Dealer

    Spoonflower sells the fabric to make that chair, if you’re interested. They might even make you wallpaper in the same print. That would be perfect for Steve’s basement office– assuming the walls are visible.

    What aleph null has to do with anything is unclear, but Euler’s identity is misstated. What would an Euler’s identity crisis or Euler’s identity politics look like? Or an Euler’s ID card?

    Oh, wait… Reddit to the rescue:

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  31. Truth says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    All these women except Inger are alive today in their 80s,

    Hey give it a shot, Reggie, you never know, they might be free Saturday night.

  32. @Reg Cæsar

    A better brain link. Also from Spoonflower, and useful in replies here:

  33. @The Wild Geese Howard

    In the history of the NBA, there has been exactly one white American MVP who was not a member of the Boston Celtics. In the interest of fairness, George Mikan’s career predates the award. It was

    [MORE]
    Bob Pettit of the St. Louis Hawks.

  34. Jokić has a temper. He got ejected after getting hit with two technical fouls during the Nuggets’ playoff series.

    His fellow Balkan wunderkind, Luka Dončić, seems to have a sunnier disposition.

  35. @Reg Cæsar

    The appeal of Raquel Welch in her prime mystifies you? Don’t know what to say man. Never thought I’d hear that from anyone. I’ll take your explanation that they are stiff looking, I guess. Do you like salma hayek in the dusk till dawn dance scene? She’s moving around and all. If not her, then what lady appeals to you?

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    , @Reg Cæsar
  36. @ScarletNumber

    If the US had effected the Anschluss of Canada, Steve Nash could have been added to the list.

  37. @JimDandy

    As a Brooklyn Nets fan, I certainly grumbled when he became our head coach. Everyone saw Steve Kerr win in Golden State and thought it could be easily replicated. At least Kerr was a broadcaster for a few years in between; Nash was neither a broadcaster nor a team executive. He was just the general manager for Team Canada, hardly a powerhouse.

    It seems like his redeeming feature is that he doesn’t try to push the players too hard. I don’t know when this became such an admirable trait, but it is in the modern NBA. I thought PJ Carlesimo did a great job in 2012-13 as interim coach for 54 games, going 35-19, but he was dumped for Jason Kidd, who only lasted one season. For whatever reason, we want to believe that great players are going to make great coaches, when the evidence says just the opposite.

  38. Truth says:
    @ScarletNumber

    That is an amazing, and highly interesting stat. Technical though, Billy Cunningham, the Kangaroo Kid won the ABA Award in 1972 (Probably should have been Gilmore).

  39. @Jonathan Mason

    He won the Golden Ball (for best player of the tournament) during the last World Cup.

  40. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    The Sacramento Kings for a while built a contender around Vlade Divac and some other East European guys. One of the funnest and most athletic teams too.

    I found myself rooting against my hometown Lakers and Shaq when they had some epic post season battles.
    I imagine it’s like the Patriots and their strategy of picking up good overlooked white players–people wondered why other teams weren’t doing it, but the fact is there are only so many such players to go around, so there’s room for one or two teams to pull it off.

  41. bgates says:

    Jokic’s back-to-back MVP awards match the feat accomplished by fellow finalist Giannis Antetokounmpo during the 2018-19 and ’19-20 seasons

    Hey that’s four years of Europeans* in a row!

    *As you can guess from his first name, Giannis was born in Greece. As you can guess from his last name, his parents were born in Nigeria.

  42. Gore 2004 says:
    @ScarletNumber

    Coaches can’t push players too hard—-they can’t run the risk of being seen as “racist”.

    • Agree: ScarletNumber
  43. @Reg Cæsar

    De gustibus…. but sex appeal of the most prominent actresses & other global sluts in the 1990s and the 2000s is equal to zero.

    They’re boring, dull, all plastic, without a trace of personality… And they’re, way too many of them, midgets & annoying psychos.

    Steve would probably characterize some of them as “lovely”. Perhaps, but nothing more.

  44. prosa123 says:
    @Spangel226

    You can’t deny the prowess of west African men, but it comes at the expense of the beauty of their women (who are also feats of brute physical prowess).
    The balkans are the golden ratio of physically powerful to gracile looking.

    It’s hard to say for sure because beauty indeed is in the eye of the beholder. Strength and athleticism, and physical robustness to an extent, can be measured more precisely. And it is clear that West Africans rank very high, case in point the NFL.
    Clearly there are some confounding factors, for example the fact that Covid took a higher proportionate toll of blacks in the United States, but they can usually be explained without changing the overall point.

  45. Gee, I thought blacks were genetically superior at basketball.

    Gosh, was I ever wrong.

    It seems that anybody who plays a lot of basketball is superior at basketball.

    Of course, tallness helps. Just like having arms and legs also helps. Eyeballs also. So, yes, there is a genetic component. A stupid one. But a component.

  46. JimDandy says:
    @ScarletNumber

    we want to believe that great players are going to make great coaches, when the evidence says just the opposite.

    Yeah. And I might extend that to most things. It’s at least worth asking: In what sport/field do the greatest ______ usually make the best coaches/teachers/etc.

    • Thanks: ScarletNumber
  47. SafeNow says:

    I had never heard of this guy. I gave-up watching The NBA, NFL, and MLB years ago. The only exceptions were a few highlight reels – – Steph, and some exciting finishes and plays. For me, the cosmetic and behavioral negatives of repulsive athletes X, Y, and Z overrode the pleasure of watching the skill of X, A, and B.

  48. Balkan athletes have really distinguished themselves in recent years.

    I was going to point out that Dovydas Neverauskas was an incredibly bad pitcher even by Pirate standards — projecting to some kind of record for homers allowed per inning if he’d somehow been allowed to pitch a qualifying number of these nightmare innings. But to be fair it turns out that Dovy’s native Lithuania is Baltic, not Balkan.

    Oh well, I’m sure both regions are a little touchy about this kind of no doubt common mixup

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  49. @Barnard

    I don’t know zilch about basketball so I checked NHL MVPs. Penguin superstars Lemieux and Crosby each won when the team was starting to get it together but was clearly still a year or two away from being a serious playoff factor. So maybe the key to the respect this Denver guy gets is that the team is seen as a serious young up-and-comer?

  50. anon[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Barnard

    The Nuggets have been without their 2nd best and arguably 3rd best player the entire year. Naturally they weren’t expected to make much noise in the postseason.

  51. Anonymous[424] • Disclaimer says:

    There should be a comment here about Stipe Miocic, the UFC heavyweight GOAT. As opposed to Fedor, arguably the HW GOAT of MMA. Stipe has a Croatian ethnic background.

    Alex Volkanovski is from Macedonia which may or may not be Balkan depending on who you ask. But he is current UFC Featherweight champ, and is in contention for GOAT status. Some studs from that region, including Rakic at LHW… potential contender there.

  52. Mike Tre says:

    “Balkan athletes have really distinguished themselves in recent years.”

    Is this evidence of negroes resting on their genetic laurels compared to Eastern Europeans actually working their asses off?

    • Replies: @John Frank
  53. Prior to this profusion of sports stars the Balkans’ main claim to fame was serving as the imaginary backdrop to countless Mission Impossible episodes. “Your mission, Jim, is to discredit Security Minister Jokic, and thwart his plan to cancel this small but strategic republic’s upcoming elections.”

  54. Mike Tre says:

    OT – “Michigan” Woman, 27, who had a mastectomy and took male hormones for six years is DE-TRANSITIONING back to being female after realizing being a man ‘didn’t represent who she is’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10796851/Michigan-woman-reveals-shes-transitioning-man.html

  55. Twinkie says:
    @Prosa123

    when it comes to strength, athleticism and general physical robustness, West Africa leads the world.

    I see this a lot here, which some people characterize as black physicality worship.

    People who are sub-Saharan African descended indeed excel in certain athletic traits. For example, West Africans are excellent at short-distance running and highland East Africans dominate long-distance running. This is borne out by the data on Olympic track and field events and the various Marathon competitions and such.

    But strength?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_weightlifting

    If you look at weight lifting (which is, yes, body weight-controlled), you see that East Asians, Eastern Europeans, Central Asians, and occasionally Iranians dominate the sport and you hardly, if ever, see the African-descended.

    It is often said that, pound for pound, some of the strongest and the most athletic people in the world are gymnasts and, again, gymnastics medalists feature many Eastern Europeans and East Asians, and not so many African-descended.

    Meanwhile, I often hear that “white men can’t jump,” but that blacks can. But when you look at the Olympic sport of high jumping, while blacks are present, there are numerous Northern European athletes among the top athletes. Indeed many white volleyball players have vertical leaps (no running, just straight jumping up) that match or exceed those of black basketball players.

    It seems to me that much of the supposed black athletic prowess, as such, is heavily loaded to sports where there is running, but their physical advantage is considerably less or even nonexistent in other aspects of athleticism, however we define it. In yet other athletic traits (such as reaction time or the ability to float and swim fast), they may even be, on average, worse than people of other races.

    As for physical robustness, this would depend highly on how you define “robustness.” If you define it by resistance to illness, for example, the African-descended don’t tend to do well aside from resistance to malaria and such.

    I think one of the reasons why there is a seeming obsession with the supposed black athletic superiority in this country in particular is because of the overwhelming popularity of football and basketball here. So there is a great deal of selection-bias in perceiving respective racial athleticism.

  56. Big Serb Nikola Jokic

    Can we get a shot of the Big Serb on Big Sur?

    I like how the name Jokić begins and ends in Cyrillic letters not found in most other Slavic languages:

    Никола Јокић

    “Basketball” in Serbo-Croatian is called Кошарка/Košarka, or “little basket”.

  57. northeast says:
    @Spangel226

    Tip of the hat for using the word gracile. Gracile is the title of an underrated song by Bob Seger as an aside.

    • Thanks: Spangel226
  58. Anon 2 says:
    @Spangel226

    Yes, Southern Slavs have done well in recent years.
    By the way, Nikola Tesla was a Southern Slav.

    • Replies: @Odyssey
  59. @Prosa123

    ‘Physical attractiveness may be at its peak in the Balkans, I don’t know but for the sake of argument let’s assume it’s true, but when it comes to strength, athleticism and general physical robustness, West Africa leads the world.’

    In so many ways, it helps to have a small head.

    • Replies: @Truth
  60. @Erik Sieven

    in general attractive women often have non-attractive (too feminine) brothers and attractive men often have non-attractive (too masculine) brothers.

    I think your last word above should be “sisters.

    There’s something to this notion, even if I have seen many examples which run against it. It also applies to families in which an attractive man and woman marry, but their children don’t look anywhere near as good as either parent, both because of regression to the mean and because children sometimes take after the parent of the opposite sex.

    An excellent example of this is the Bruce Willis/Demo Moore union, which led to three daughters whose facial structure looks – unfortunately for them – more like Bruce’s and less like Demi’s.

  61. prosa123 says:
    @Twinkie

    I think one of the reasons why there is a seeming obsession with the supposed black athletic superiority in this country in particular is because of the overwhelming popularity of football and basketball here. So there is a great deal of selection-bias in perceiving respective racial athleticism.

    When one takes all the positions into account I can’t think of a better test of all-around physical ability than football. You need strength and speed and quick reactions and much else. There is no room for a one-trick pony. And the NFL’s demographics, well they speak for themselves.

  62. @Spangel226

    “…when he engaged in his activities.”

    😮

  63. ATate says:

    I’m sure the Slovenians wouldn’t like it but they’re close enough to be “Balkan”-ish and “Slavic” and that little country has been very dominate in professional cycling for a few years now.

    Seems like that area has some decent athletes across many disciplines.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  64. @ScarletNumber

    As a Brooklyn Nets fan, I certainly grumbled when he became our head coach. Everyone saw Steve Kerr win in Golden State and thought it could be easily replicated. At least Kerr was a broadcaster for a few years in between; Nash was neither a broadcaster nor a team executive. He was just the general manager for Team Canada, hardly a powerhouse.

    Nash was certainly underqualified to be a head coach, but he did have a job with the Golden State Warriors in a couple of their championship seasons. I suspect that Nash’s connection to Durant through that job helped land him Brooklyn’s head coaching duties.

  65. Mike Tre says:
    @Prosa123

    “but when it comes to strength, athleticism and general physical robustness, West Africa leads the world. ”

    This is of course, complete and utter nonsense.

    Negroes are good at two things. Running fast and jumping high. Strength, endurance, and general robustness belongs to Northern and Eastern Europeans, West Asians, and in some cases East Asians.

    Competitive swimming, often considered one of the best measures of all three, blacks have little if any representation amongst the elites ranks. Negroes are also vastly UNDER represented in US special forces units, because among other things lack the physical stamina and durability of Northern Europeans. In other words, they fall out more and get injured more.

    It’s not just the popularity of football and basketball that have perpetuated the myth of negro physical superiority, there has been a coordinated effort in American media (news, TV, movies, music) to portray negroes as the best in anything and everything. This is the entirety of the magic negro phenomenon.

    The Caste Football website has done a very good job of illustrating the the blatant discrimination professional sports organizations engage in when it comes to selecting negroes over anyone else, but specifically white athletes.

    • Replies: @John Frank
  66. In addition to those assists, Jokic knows how to deliver a good chicken wing to the back. A soft Euro, he ain’t.

    Next Serbian superstar: Aleksej Pokusevski

  67. @prosa123

    You need strength and speed and quick reactions and much else. There is no room for a one-trick pony.

    The NFL consists of 32 stables of one-trick ponies. Or should I say 96 such stables– offensive, defensive, and special.

    The last 60-minute man retired in 1960:

    “Concrete Charlie” (that’s what he sold in the off-season to make ends meet) called today’s game “pussyfoot football”, whose stars couldn’t tackle his wife Emma. Being Slovak, he also played accordion:

  68. @prosa123

    But it’s literally the most one trick pony of positions- cornerback- that blacks dominate most throughly. The more complex the position the more balanced the racial make up until you get to quarterback which is almost completely dominated by whites. And that’s to say nothing of a sport like soccer where subsaharan African teams are generally outclassed by athletic non-entity countries like Egypt and Algeria. I encourage you to start following sports a little more closely.

  69. @Spangel226

    The Anglo-Frisian Audrey Hepburn was a model of femininity. I adored her even if she was older than my mother.

  70. @Prester John

    I believe Steve, and others as well, have already pointed out that European white players dominate in the NBA while US born white players are scarce largely because the latter’s black teammates, maturing earlier and growing faster, intimidate and run them out of the sport even before they get to high school. Admittedly anecdotal, but my youngest son was starting point guard as freshman and sophomore team at a small Catholic school, but didn’t make the team when he went to the public high school for his last two years. Lost interest in his favorite sport. Now he follows the UFC religiously where blacks play a secondary role, and has begun training in mixed martial arts as well. NBA loses millions of former fans a year. I haven’t watched a game since Manu Ginobli retired.

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
  71. Anon 2 says:
    @Prosa123

    Life expectancy in Nigeria is extremely low: 59 years for
    males and 63 years for females. West Africans may be known
    for many things, but physical robustness is not one of them.

  72. @Erik Sieven

    in general attractive women often have non-attractive (too feminine) brothers and attractive men often have non-attractive (too masculine) brothers.

    I think you mean that handsome men with masculine features often have sisters where the same features aren’t as complimentary.

    That does happen but the more common case is the unattractive man that marries the attractive woman through personality/skills/money/whatever and the kids are a slot machine mix.

  73. @prosa123

    When one takes all the positions into account I can’t think of a better test of all-around physical ability than football. You need strength and speed and quick reactions and much else. There is no room for a one-trick pony. And the NFL’s demographics, well they speak for themselves.

    I don’t agree at all. Guys on the line are just plain big. The average pay is on the lower end for linemen because they are much easier to replace. Sure they have to know a lot of plays but their main job is to push forward. In the NFL most don’t play more than 2 years.

    My friend was a nerd in college and could have played football on the line due to his size even though he was out of shape. He was more interested in Magic type games and detested the idea. Meanwhile there are always football players that are in excellent shape but can’t play the line because they aren’t big enough.

    Baseball is the sport that rules out one-trick ponies. This is because everyone bats and fields. Sure the pitchers rarely hit but they can still do it if needed…..poorly but they can do it.

    It really takes incredible skill to play at any professional level. I really don’t like the constant focus on sports because few realize how rare it is to play at that level. Kids are encouraged to follow their dreams but sports are really a lie in that regard. It just isn’t realistic unless you show crazy talent at a young age.

    • Agree: Gore 2004
  74. @JimDandy

    Nash and Nowitzki were made MVPs — three years straight — largely thanks to David Stern trying to course correct after The Malice at the Palace in late 2004. The same season, Nash won his first MVP after years of not even making an All NBA 1st Team once in his career.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
  75. there are a lot of talented whites in basketball from the usa. they just were discouraged and discriminated against for the last 30 years. remember, white men can’t jump, they said. they even made a movie about it. that was the end of white basketball players. the nerds all took it to heart, and basketball became a shoe sales game. every woke player has his life savings tied into nike stock, (but who cares about chinese slaves), we wokeeeeee.

    euro basketball players that keep playing don’t have to deal with the gross american system that is geared toward selling shoes and lifestyle to black people.

    haven’t watched anything since kobe died. that’s when the nba league officially died. what you see now is a ghost.

    nhl is great though

  76. @Twinkie

    If you look at weight lifting (which is, yes, body weight-controlled), you see that East Asians, Eastern Europeans, Central Asians, and occasionally Iranians dominate the sport and you hardly, if ever, see the African-descended.

    A lot of African-descended athletes who might have become successful weightlifters went into higher paying sports instead.

  77. Goatweed says:

    Audrey Hepburn, Diana Rigg, Elizabeth Taylor.

  78. @ScarletNumber

    My apologies, before edit, I offered Nowitzki, not American. Bill Walton?

  79. Odyssey says:

    Nikola and Luka are Serbs. So as Bogdan Bogdanovic, some may like to see him in action (there are few others as well):

  80. @ScarletNumber

    In the history of the NBA, there has been exactly one white American MVP who was not a member of the Boston Celtics.

    Didn’t Bill Walton win when he was in Portland?

  81. @ATate

    Jokic, for example, played a lot of water polo, a sport that Balkan countries dominate in the Olympics, and it taught him how to master the one-handed outlet pass after he grabs a rebound. A lot of his assists come on 50 foot passes from under the basket on the defensive end.

  82. @Dave Pinsen

    A lot of African-descended athletes who might have become successful weightlifters went into higher paying sports instead.

    Nah, in the NFL everybody lifts, and most of the very highest scores (7 of top ten) are White or Polynesian linemen. Distribution of O-line is close to 50-50 black-white. Small sample of course but I have impression it holds up.

  83. @Twinkie

    As far as I know studies show that out of all ethnic groups people with African Americans have the highest grip strength on average in the USA. I think there is also something about strength.
    Anyway people with West African ancestry have recently been quite successful at sports which do not rely on running, e.g. Olympic wrestling.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  84. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @Slugsmagee

    I recall pointing that out here during the Jeremy Lin situaton, with Asians being on an even slower maturation schedule than whites. It impressed no one. But it’s undoubtedly true

  85. JimDandy says:
    @Reality Check (Tikkun Olam)

    Didn’t know that. That’s interesting. Thanks.

  86. Twinkie says:
    @prosa123

    When one takes all the positions into account I can’t think of a better test of all-around physical ability than football. You need strength and speed and quick reactions and much else. There is no room for a one-trick pony.

    As another commenter pointed out, football players are mostly “one-trick ponies.”

    In terms of all-around athletic ability (strength, speed, explosiveness, jumping, and so on.), something like gymnastics and wrestling are a far better measure. Blacks are not absent in those sports, but are easily outnumbered by Eastern Europeans, East Asians, Caucasians (actually from the Caucasus), etc.

  87. Twinkie says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    A lot of African-descended athletes who might have become successful weightlifters went into higher paying sports instead.

    I don’t think that’s the case. Blacks don’t seem to have the strength-to-bodyweight ratio Eastern Europeans, Caucasians, Central Asians, and East Asians.

    Also, I think having a long torso and short arms and legs help in Olympic weightlifting. And blacks have the opposite body shape – short torso and long limbs. That’s great for boxing and kickboxing though. Wrestling/grappling, on the other hand, tends to favor the shorter-limbed.

    The torso-to-limbs ratio is a cold/hot temperature adaptation, with ice people having a high ratio and the sun people having a low ratio.

  88. Twinkie says:
    @Erik Sieven

    studies show that out of all ethnic groups people with African Americans have the highest grip strength on average in the USA.

    I’d like to see that. Grip strength, though, is not the same as core strength.

    people with West African ancestry have recently been quite successful at sports which do not rely on running, e.g. Olympic wrestling.

    No.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_freestyle_wrestling

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_Greco-Roman_wrestling

    Occasional American blacks or Cubans do well in Olympic wrestling, but are far outnumbered by Eastern Europeans (especially Russians), Caucasians (Dagestanis, Georgians), Central Asians, Iranians, and East Asians. There is a Eurasian “wrestling belt” that runs from Russia to Japan.

    If I had to pick one ethnicity, Dagestanis absolutely rule male wrestling while the Japanese women dominate the female wrestling (the Japanese men are not too shabby in wrestling either – it being the Olympic event with the second most medals for them after Judo).

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    , @Truth
  89. @prosa123

    But, like basketball, you need size first before the other athletic qualities typically make a difference in performance. There are very few average-sized football players in the NFL, if we define average as being around 5’10” and 175 pounds. A few, but not many.

    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b3a945537dd3e9b08eb87e9f8663fff9

    An average-sized athlete’s best bet for making it as a starter in the NFL would probably be at cornerback, safety or slot receiver. Averaged-sized men can also occasionally make it at QB (see Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Baker Mayfield, Michael Vick, etc.), but it rarely happens, and even those men are slightly bigger than average. Drew Brees is listed at 6’0″ and 209 pounds, for example, and he was considered a very successful undersized QB.

  90. J.Ross says:

    OT — Mexico and Brazil suggest they might join a trend of important countries with busy phone lines and skip a conference which illegitimate president Joe Biden is holding. An evil Russian hacker on 4chan interferes in our democracy thusly:

    Good. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to speak to Joe Biden. No reason to answer a phone call from him. No reason to meet him. Biden controls nothing. He doesn’t know what day it is. Nothing he says can have any importance. Much of what he says is actually incoherent nonsense. The man was a buffoon when he had his faculties and now he is a buffoon with dementia. If I had a chance to [bring democracy to] top people I might try to democratize certain cabinet members but I would absolutely leave Joe Biden alone, and not out of fear of the Secret Service, whose duties have been reduced to preventing a child molesting crackhead from setting himself on fire. It would be because Joe Biden is President Nobody.

    • Agree: Ron Mexico
  91. @Catdompanj

    He caught on with the Celtics at the end of his career. I should have phrased it as NEVER played for the Boston Celtics, instead of the way I did, which was that he wasn’t a Celtic at the time he won, as Walton was a Portland Trailblazer. Mea Culpa.

  92. Dream says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Squared jawed Dolph Lundgren has a good looking daughter.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  93. Odyssey says:

    Something from ancient times (70’s) – Pistol Pete Maravic:

    Re – physical abilities – Serbs (especially Dinaric race) are officially the tallest people in the world. But, the height and strength are not enough. The (quantum) brain is also important (not so widespread among Afro-Americans) so as imaginativeness, audacity, inventiveness, wit – all these are more present in Euro basketball than in NBA.

    • LOL: Truth
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  94. Anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @Erik Sieven

    The sweet spot is a somewhat handsome woman, still beautiful. You get strong, good looking sons, and probably good looking enough daughters out of the coupling. (From the perspective of a relatively good looking guy, but not so much in the ruggedly handsome mold.)

    It depends on the husband though… if you are as masculine as Bruce Willis in the face, in hindsight you probably don’t want to have kids to woman handsome enough to play GI Jane. Someone more beautiful, a bit of a chinlet was obviously advisable in hindsight, or you select only male children somehow. Poor bastard.

    Arnie by contrast, has some relatively good looking daughters. Chris Pratt has options, the fact he’s chosen one of them says something. In general good looks are heritable from what I’ve seen.

    What is also notable is that you can get the “worst of all worlds” when it comes to pairings. So you can have the ugly wealthy guy with the 10 wife… and get a homely, ditzy kid with perhaps some uncouth natures of the father but the lack of brain of the wife. You can get someone who wins the genetic lottery also. I think Bruce Willis was unlucky that his daughters all drew his jawline, which only really works for a male.

  95. Dream says:

    Serbs are indeed a superior race.

  96. @Twinkie

    concerning grip strength:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5072478/
    https://agmr.hapres.com/htmls/AGMR_1159_Detail.html

    In Tokyo in 2021 men with West African ancestry were successful in the heaviest weight divisions both in Greco as well as in Freestyle wrestling.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  97. @Pincher Martin

    “I think your last word above should be “sisters”” . Yes, thanks

  98. Odyssey says:
    @Anon 2

    Yep, Nikola Tesla was 187cm tall, same as Novak Djokovic. The former Serbian prince and bishop, Nyegos, was 2.10 m, same as Nikola Jokic (2.11m). But, the highest among two dozen of Serbian Roman Emperors was Maximinus Thrax – 2.39m.

    It is worth mentioning that the Serbian women basketball team is the current Euro-champion and will play on the World basketball championship for women in Australia later this year.

  99. Brutusale says:
    @prosa123

    The late Dan Jenkins hated baseball and baseball players, but opined that the ability to hit a baseball, hit it for power, run, throw, and catch is probably the best all-around athlete.

  100. Brutusale says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Dave, you’ve spent enough time in weight rooms to know the story.

  101. @Dream

    Maybe she takes after her mother.

    But after googling a photo of Dolph’s ex-wife and the mother of his children, I doubt it. Perhaps this is a case of where one of the children looks more like a granny than either parent.

    Or maybe the photos misleads. She looks a little more square-jawed in this photo.

  102. @Odyssey

    Probably one of the most overrated NBA basketball players of all time.

    – Routinely shot under 45% from the field.

    – Turned the ball over like it was the point of the game. In the first year the NBA kept that stat (1977-78 – the merger season), Maravich would’ve easily led the league in turnovers per game if he played in enough games to qualify.

    – Couldn’t win. He started on only one team in his entire NBA career which had a winning record, and that team had a measly 46-36 record. He also played for the Larry Bird Celtics in Larry’s rookie year and Pete’s last year, but as a limited off-the-bench player.

    – Played mostly in the talent-diluted NBA of the early- and mid-nineteen-seventies, when the ABA poached many of the best players in the country. That inflated his best stats.

    Even Pistol Pete’s highlight video reel which you link in your post is uninspiring.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    , @ScarletNumber
  103. Truth says:
    @Twinkie

    Oh, I don’t know, Old Sport; Justin Burroughs is arguably the best wrestler; pound-for-pound in the world, the last 20 years, Teddy Riner is arguably the best Judoka ever, certainly the best heavyweight, Mijain Lopez Nunez, is arguably the best Greco-Roman stylist ever, and let’s consider (arguably, again) the two greatest folkstyle/freestyle wrestler’s of all time, Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson;

    Well, this gentleman, defeated one of them 11-1, and coached the other…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Douglas?msclkid=b2a53711d14d11ecb4aa1c08c7ba008e

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    , @Twinkie
  104. Truth says:
    @Colin Wright

    In so many ways, it helps to have a small head.

    Then you’re doubly blessed, Collie, you have two of ’em.

  105. @Truth

    That would be “Jordan” Burroughs, and Kyle Dake beat him at the Trials.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Twinkie
  106. @Pincher Martin

    And yet he is in the Naismith Hall of Fame.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  107. Hibernian says:

    There was another Nikola, first a Bull, then a Pelican, and then a Buck, who returned to Europe. This is his story:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Mirotić

    • Replies: @Odyssey
    , @Nicholas Stix
  108. Odyssey says:
    @Hibernian

    He just anonymously paid a half of million of Euros for some sick (spinal muscular atrophy) boy’s expensive medication (but the information about the donor was leaked).

    • Thanks: Hibernian
  109. Football players are, on average, the best athletes in sports. Their combination of speed and strength is unequaled. Go down any NFL roster and you will find numerous athletes who excelled in other sports in high school and even college. Consider Bob Hayes, 100m Olympic gold medalist; Michael Carter, Olympic shot put silver medalist; Curley Culp, NCAA heavyweight wrestling champion; Tyreek Hill, ran, what at that time, was the 3rd fastest high school 200m in history; James Lofton, 27 foot long jumper. And these are just guys off of the top of my head. Additional research would yield a near endless list of outstanding athletic achievements by NFL players.

    Compare Hershel Walker and Carl Lewis. Lewis was a little faster. Why? Because Hershel Walker was carrying 40 lbs of extra muscle that Lewis did not have. Walker was the state champion in high school in the 100 and the shot put. So who is the better athlete? I am going with the superior horse power of Walker.

    And you don’t have to go to the NFL to find great athletes who play football. A close relative of mine played big time college football. He told me that one day he was shooting baskets with some other football players, when one of the players, who was only 5ft 9in, was just standing underneath the basket, and with no hop or skip, went straight up off of two feet and did a two handed reverse slam (and, by the way, this was a white guy). Another player ran down the lane and did a 360 dunk (he was a two time state high 100 yard dash champion). He also told me a story where one of their future NFL defensive backs raced the star guard (who was a future NBA player) of the college’s basketball team. The db just smoked the basketball player. And in fact, the db was holding a football straight out to the side the whole time he was running! Even in college the horse power of many of these athletes, including my relative, was amazing.

  110. Twinkie says:
    @Erik Sieven

    Thanks for the articles about grip strength:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5072478/

    This one concludes:

    Of 2,091 adults, 422(45.4%) were male, 509(54.8%) were African American, and 320 (34.5%) were living in households with incomes below 125% of the federal poverty level (low SES). In adjusted models, African American women had greater grip strength than White women independent of SES (low income household: 29.3 vs 26.9 kg and high income household: 30.5 vs. 28.3kg; P<.05 for both); whereas in men, only African Americans in the high income household group had better grip strength than Whites (46.3 vs. 43.2; P<.05).

    Let’s just say there are some significant methodological issues in concluding that blacks have the strongest grip strength of all races from this.

    In this study muscle mass and quality were not obtained. However, African American women on average were 6 pounds heavier than White women suggesting that perhaps muscle mass may have played a role in racial differences in grip strength in women. However, African American men in this study weighed an average of 12 pounds less than White men.

    I can tell you that, right off the bat, there is a significant selection bias in this article. Blacks are, on average, more obese than whites, but the sampling in this study is not only heavily skewed toward blacks, but also to those blacks who are lighter than whites. The authors admit that their study is in contradiction to another study:

    Our finding that African Americans had greater grip strength than Whites was inconsistent with the work of Haas and colleagues, which examined data from the Health and Retirement Study and found that African Americans had worse grip strength than Whites.

    And then go on to engage in discussions about age and socio-economic conditions that might affect grip strength.

    https://agmr.hapres.com/htmls/AGMR_1159_Detail.html

    Although this study does show ethno-racial data, it is more about rise and decline of grip strength by age. As I often mention, both Hispanic and Asian categories need to be parsed, because these are NOT racial categories. “Asian,” for example, includes both East Asians whose home countries excel in many Olympic sports and Indians who are notorious laggards in international athletic competitions (except cricket).

    In Tokyo in 2021 men with West African ancestry were successful in the heaviest weight divisions both in Greco as well as in Freestyle wrestling.

    I assume you are referring to Gable Stevens (men’s freestyle 125KGS) and Mijain Lopez (men’s Greco-Roman 130 KGS). They were 2 of the 3.5 blacks among 36 male medalists that year (the other 1.5 blacks were Reineris Salas of Cuba and Zhan Beleniuk of Ukraine who is half-black). Let me quote myself from earlier:

    Occasional American blacks or Cubans do well in Olympic wrestling, but are far outnumbered by Eastern Europeans (especially Russians), Caucasians (Dagestanis, Georgians), Central Asians, Iranians, and East Asians. There is a Eurasian “wrestling belt” that runs from Russia to Japan.

    Meanwhile, there were 8 medalists from Russia (plus 1 from Belarus and 1.5 from Ukraine), 3 from Japan (plus 1 from China), and a whopping 13 from the Turkey-Caucasus-Iran-Central Asia region. (Meanwhile, the Japanese women absolutely crushed the female wrestling competition.)

    By the way, not a single African country medaled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_at_the_2020_Summer_Olympics#Medal_table

    And that’s a sample size one (year). If you look at the data I linked to earlier, it become pretty clear which regions of the world produce the bulk of the top wrestlers in the world year after year.

  111. @EddieSpaghetti

    And you can start football as a 9th grader in high school and the coaches will teach you the game for free. No need to pay for tutors and travel teams, so there’s no economic filter.

    The downside is you are competing against most everybody who is tough enough to play high school football so you have to be very good to get a college scholarship.

  112. Twinkie says:
    @Truth

    Oh, I don’t know

    No, you don’t. Just like you pretended to know something about boxing, but couldn’t tell a cross from a hook.

    Justin Burroughs is arguably the best wrestler; pound-for-pound in the world, the last 20 years

    Who is Justin? Are you referring to Jordan Burroughs? He is a phenomenal wrestler and has been particularly successful at the Worlds (5 golds), but he only has ONE Olympic gold medal. Meanwhile Russia’s Buvaisar Saitiev has THREE gold medals at the Olympics as well as SIX golds at the Worlds. If you knew anything about international freestyle wrestling (instead of whatever the excitable American media tells you, you wouldn’t have made a claim like that). For that matter, probably the best freestyle wrestler currently is Abdulrashid Sadulaev (won gold at the 2016 and 2020 Olympics and won 5 Worlds, including the 2021 competition in Oslo).

    Teddy Riner is arguably the best Judoka ever

    Not even close. Riner has an amazing winning record, but no one who knows anything about Judo would ever say that he is “the best Judoka ever” arguably or not. There is a bell curve to Judo competitors based on weight. Competition is the fiercest in the middle weight categories. The heaviest weight category (+100KGS, meaning no limit above 220 lbs.) has absolutely the thinnest competition and Riner is a particularly large and heavy individual, being 6′ 8″ and close to 300 lbs. That category is considered to have the least technical and athletic competitors and he also happens to compete against much smaller men (due to the lack of upper bound weight limit). Riner is not even in top ten in terms of technical skills or athleticism. Both Jimmy Pedro and Travis Stevens, when interviewed recently about international Judoka, made those exact points and picked Japan’s Shohei Ono (73 KGS) as the best Judoka today.

    the two greatest folkstyle/freestyle wrestler’s of all time, Dan Gable and Cael Sanderson

    Amazing wrestlers, but American folkstyle is only played in the U.S. Both won gold at the Olympics once, Gable won Worlds once (Sanderson never did), but neither has been dominant in freestyle. Freestyle and American folkstyle are different and most American wrestlers don’t tradition well to the Olympic freestyle.

    Both are white Americans, by the way.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    , @Truth
  113. Twinkie says:
    @EddieSpaghetti

    Football players are, on average, the best athletes in sports.

    You realize it is only played in one country.

    • Replies: @EddieSpaghetti
  114. @Twinkie

    Freestyle and American folkstyle are different and most American wrestlers don’t tradition well to the Olympic freestyle.

    In the best tradition of Ziggy Freud I diagnose transphobia here.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  115. @Known Fact

    If I were Baltic I would be more upset in being grouped with Mediterranean in the slum just after GO

  116. @EddieSpaghetti

    If you have ever seen Carl Lewis throw a baseball, it would be trivial to declare that Herschel Walker is the superior athlete. Carl Lewis can’t sing, either. Carl Lewis can run very fast for 656 feet at a time. He can also jump far after taking a short sprint. I would imagine the Herschel would blow away Carl in the decathlon.

  117. @Pincher Martin

    It’s amazing that Bruce Willis and Demi Moore could produce three ugly daughters like that, yet they did. It reminds me of the bit on Late Night with Conan O’Brien were they would imagine what the child of two celebrities would look like and the result is always grotesque.

    See also: the photos of Christie Brinkley with her two daughters Alexa Ray and Sailor. They have different dads and boy does it show. The funny thing is that they have posed together enough where it seems like no one in their lives will call them on it.

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    , @AceDeuce
  118. Twinkie says:
    @kaganovitch

    LOL. Yeah, I meant “transition.”

  119. @Twinkie

    Actually, football is also played in Canada. But your point is well taken. Clearly there are more people around the world who play basketball, ping pong, or soccer, than there are that play football. There are also probably more people who play baseball as well.

    As far as athletes are concerned, the best ping pong player in China is probably the most highly selected athlete on Earth. He is literally one in, say, 500 million. But would you call him the world’s best athlete? I wouldn’t, because in my judgment of athletes I most highly value the combination of strength and speed, horsepower if you will. And none of these other sports selects for strength and speed like football. And as Steve pointed out, there are a huge number of football players. So these NFL players are still very highly selected for strength and speed (as well as toughness, which is another admirable quality).

    In a related issue, I am reminded of something that I saw in a World Cup soccer match between Brazil and the United States. Specifically, one of Brazil’s players threw a seemingly effortless elbow that, I believe, broke a US player’s jaw (the Brazilian player was ejected for this elbow). What struck me about this incident was that a tiny soccer player, who probably weighed only about 135 lbs, could actually break someone’s jaw with an ordinary elbowing motion (there was no windup involved).

    But then I realized that this tiny soccer player is one of only 11 players, out of the many millions of Brazilian’s that play soccer, to start on Brazil’s national team. And that being so highly selected means that he is a undoubtedly a tremendous athlete. An athlete with so much athletic ability that he could break a jaw with an ordinary elbow. Impressive athleticism, indeed!

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  120. @Pincher Martin

    I don’t think that Maravich’s NBA career is overrated, if only because he is widely considered to be an NBA flop, albeit one who played 10 seasons. Perhaps if the Jazz stayed in New Orleans he could have played a bit longer, but the NBA was in such a sorry state at the time that it was cruel to make the Jazz play in the Superdome.

    As for Ron Mexico‘s response, the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame honors the entirety of a player’s career, both college and pro. Maravich still holds the college basketball scoring record and he did that without playing his freshman year and without a three-point shot. He is well deserving of induction.

  121. Twinkie says:
    @EddieSpaghetti

    As far as athletes are concerned, the best ping pong player in China is probably the most highly selected athlete on Earth. He is literally one in, say, 500 million. But would you call him the world’s best athlete?

    That would be a straw man.

    Try gymnastics, Judo, and wrestling. Those sports are widely practiced all over the world (Judo has the most participating nations in the world among Olympic sports) and they require strength, agility, speed, explosiveness, and a high degree of mental focus.

    They are, bar none, the best athletes in the world.

  122. Odyssey says:

    From European perspective, American football is an idiotic and anti-climax activity with all this pretentious and funny outfit. It cannot be compared with Australian (working class) Rugby which is played without any protections and can be very rough, physical and sometimes interesting. Australian (higher class, private schools) Rugby which is played internationally (England, France, Argentina) is also a dumb, boring slow-motion activity. Baseball is also something stupid and meaningless but one millimetre in front of cricket, which is really an anachronic colonial activity enforced on subcontinental folks. The most hilarious thing is when I hear – The World Series or World Championship. You must be really indoctrinated from toddler’s age, otherwise, anyone’s brain (who is mature and having a common sense) will automatically reject these funny, tobacco chewing, testicles scrambling motions.

  123. Truth says:
    @Ron Mexico

    Yes, Jordan Burroughs (don’t ever grow over 45, Old Sport), and yes, an unheralded nobody *named Kyle Dake beat him in the trials. An unheralded nobody whom he now holds a 7-3 record against.

    (* An unheralded nobody who was the first man in history to win 4 NCAA wrestling titles in 4 different weight classes, and Burroughs is SO great, that people looked upon it, as though the Taiwanese little leaguers had beaten the Yankees in the world series).

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
  124. Truth says:
    @Twinkie

    Meanwhile Russia’s Buvaisar Saitiev has THREE gold medals at the Olympics as well as SIX golds at the Worlds.

    That’s precisely why I wrote “arguably” and “the last twenty years” which is a period, my calendar tells me, from 2002-2022, which invalidates Saitev’s first Gold Medal and four of his championships.

    Amazing wrestlers, but American folkstyle is only played in the U.S… Freestyle and American folkstyle are different and most American wrestlers don’t tradition well to the Olympic freestyle.

    Again, that’s PRECISELY my point. The reason you can put a Gable, a Baumgartner, a Burroughs or a Sanderson in the the argument as greatest ever, is because they train and compete all year at one set of rules, and then intermittently change over to a new set of rules… and do QUITE well. It would be sort of like Pete Sampras training for Badminton 8 weeks a year and winning a world title.

    How would Sadulaev do, in the NCAA Championships you took him to College Station for 2 months and Sanderson train him? You’re the expert, you tell me.

    Gable won Worlds once (Sanderson never did), but neither has been dominant in freestyle.

    If I remember correctly, Gable won an Olympics without surrendering a point. I’d say that’s dominant. And both Sanderson and Gable entered coaching in their mid 20’s to start families.

    Regarding Riner, this brings us back to an age old question in sports. On principle, I would agree with you, the lower weight classes are superior, as a general rule, in all combat sports simply because there are more competitors, and guys are fighting against guys their size. As a matter of fact, when you go back in time, MOST of the iconic athletes, Butkus, Ruth, Jack Johnson, Chamberlain, Ali… were competing with guys smaller than them. Hell, Dick Butkus was 6-3 245 lbs. BIGGER than most of the lineman blocking him. BUT…

    That does not change the fact that many people, and not all of them casuals will tell you
    that Tyson Fury is the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time right now. I do not agree, but the argument, is there, and many people who know much more about Judo than I do, will tell you that Teddy Riner is the greatest Judoka of all-time. I said Riner was great, I did not say he was God. As evidence of your point, you put up a match against the first guy to score on him in 12 years.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  125. Truth says:
    @ScarletNumber

    Maravich was an unbelievable TALENT, but he was a good not great BASKETBALL PLAYER. Maravich’s true salad days were before he got to the Jazz, you look at clips of him playing with the Hawks, you understand the hullabaloo.

    When you watch Maravich’s early highlights, he was truly 20 years before his time.

    Their were a lot of issues with Maravich on the Hawks, one being he played with a few black hall-of famers who were probably a little jealous of his ability… while again, being better BASKETBALL PLAYERS than he was. Another was that really, Pete was more of an artist than a basketball player at heart.

    • Agree: Odyssey
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  126. @Ron Mexico

    The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is not limited to the NBA, and Maravich had a helluva college career in which he averaged over 44 points a game. Just on his college basketball accomplishments alone Maravich should have been inducted in the HoF.

    But as an NBA player, he was forgettable except as a flashy ball hog who had maybe three or four statistically significant seasons of scoring on bad teams before he disappeared.

  127. @ScarletNumber

    As you can see from my response to Ron Mexico’s post, I agree with your final paragraph. But I did write in my original response that Pistol Pete was “probably one of the most overrated NBA players of all time.”

    Even among Maravich’s near contemporaries in the NBA who shared his proclivity for being high-volume scorers on mostly mediocre/bad teams, he did not stand out. I’d take George Gervin, Adrian Dantley or (pre-Celtic) Nate Archibald’s careers over Maravich’s any day.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
  128. @ScarletNumber

    Even among Maravich’s white peers, he did not stand out as an NBA player.

    Think of the great white players who had significant NBA seasons in the 1970s. And let’s exclude playoff accomplishments (since Maravich had none) and focus only on regular season stats.

    Would anyone mention Pistol Pete in the same breath as Jerry West? In the 1970-71 season, West averaged 27 points per game, 9.5 assists, and 4.6 rebounds, while shooting over 49% from the field. That’s a far better regular season than anything Maravich accomplished and it wasn’t close to being West’s best regular season.

    How about John Havlicek? In the 1971-72 season, Hondo averaged 27.5 points per game, 7.5 assists, and 8.2 rebounds while shooting 46% from the field and 83% from the line. That’s a better regular season than anything Maravich accomplished and yet it was actually a slight downturn from the numbers Hondo had put up in just his previous season.

    How about Rick Barry? in the 1974-75 season, Rick averaged 30.6 ppg, 6.2 assists, and. 5.7 rebounds while leading the league in steals with 2.9. He shot 46% from the field and over 90% from the line. Both those shooting percentages are higher than anything Maravich shot in his entire career during a full regular season.

    Even the now-forgotten Gail Goodrich had better regular seasons than Pistol Pete. If Goodrich did not score quite as high, he shot better than Pistol Pete.

  129. Twinkie says:
    @Ron Mexico

    Kyle Dake beat him at the Trials.

    Dake should have won gold at the Olympics, but got tech-falled by the Belarussian wrestler in the quarter finals. He fought back from repechage, though, and got bronze.

    Fantastic wrestler.

  130. Twinkie says:
    @Truth

    How would Sadulaev do, in the NCAA Championships you took him to College Station for 2 months and Sanderson train him?

    He’d crush all before him. American folk style has a lot more ridin’ and freestyle is much more explosive and throw-based.

    But that’s not the issue. The issue is that only the U.S. does American folk style while the whole world does freestyle. The competition is far more intense in the latter.

    many people who know much more about Judo than I do, will tell you that Teddy Riner is the greatest Judoka of all-time.

    Who?

    • Replies: @Truth
  131. @Truth

    For all those no-look dipsy-doo passes in that highlight video, one would think Maravich was among the league leaders in assists during his career, yet he had only one season in which he finished in the top five (#5 in 1974-75) and only one other season in which he finished in the top ten (#6 in 1972-73).

    Of all the high-volume scorers in NBA history, Maravich was among the least efficient. He shot 44.1% from the field during his career. Compare that to George Gervin (50.4%), Adrian Dantley (54%), Rick Barry (45.6%), Bob McAdoo (50.3%), Jerry West (47.4%), Bernard King (51.8%), Michael Jordan (49.7%), Alex English (50.7%), Dominique Wilkins (46.1%) and Steph Curry (47.3%).

    As far as I know, the only high-volume scorer from 1970 onward who had a career shooting percentage lower than Maravich’s? Allen Iverson at 42.5%

  132. Mike Tre says:
    @prosa123

    “When one takes all the positions into account I can’t think of a better test of all-around physical ability than football.”

    This admission alone reveals you have no legitimacy on this topic. You’re suffering g from a lifetime of magic negro programming.

  133. @ScarletNumber

    If you think Bruce and Demi’s daughters are homely, check out the male progeny of Ryan O’Neill and Farrah Fawcett, two of the most beautiful Hollywood denizens of the 1970s.

  134. Truth says:

    Oh, and by the way, you guys truly underestimate the athleticism involved in the NBA. Keep in mind as you watch this, you are looking at a guy who is 6’8 230 lbs.

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rQ73oMfCIFk

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  135. @Truth

    Keep in mind as you watch this, you are looking at a guy who is 6’8 230 lbs.

    But that’s the point. If you were to objectively measure athletic considerations that were independent of size, how many 5’10” guys would show themselves to be the equal if not superior to NBA and NFL players? I’m talking about speed, quickness, coordination, balance, strength (again, independent of size), endurance, etc.

    I’m guessing quite a few.

    I remember a story about Michael Jordan’s brother, Larry Jordan. One of Michael’s first NBA coaches, Doug Collins, said that he understood Michael’s success after he met Larry. Michael’s brother was built like a tank. He had a 44″ vertical jump (Michael’s was 42″). But he was only 5’8″ and that was the rub.

    His brother, who was just of average height for an NBA player, stood ten inches taller.

    So why didn’t Larry experience anything close to the success of Michael? Obviously because he was 5’8″ and so college basketball at North Carolina was as far as he would go.

    I greatly admire NBA and NFL players. They are great athletes. But they are strongly selected toward large size even more so than they are toward extreme athletic ability.

  136. AceDeuce says:
    @Prosa123

    Life expectancy in Serbia is 21 years higher than Nigeria. Who’s more “robust”?

    Now let’s do IQ…

    • LOL: Pincher Martin
  137. AceDeuce says:
    @ScarletNumber

    Christie Brinkley with her two daughters Alexa Ray and Sailor.

    Alexa Ray’s sperm donor is Billy Joel, of course. The, uh, rather distinctive-looking Alexa has tried her hand at singing, with limited results, leading some wags to claim that she has her father’s beauty and her mother’s musicality.

    • LOL: Pincher Martin
  138. @EddieSpaghetti

    “Football players are, on average, the best athletes in sports. Their combination of speed and strength is unequaled.’

    This is just a very strong pro-American biased statement from probably an American citizen who grew up in America with American sports. First of all, they do not have the best combination of strength and “speed”: they have maybe the best combination of strength(possibly, although wrestlers and powerflifters are definitely stronger) and sprinting ability. But sprinting is not the same as “speed”. NFL football players get winded in 30 seconds. Let’s seem them run a marathon or even 10 miles. The average pro soccer player can run for 25-35 minutes. Each half lasts for 45 minutes, and they are running for roughly 60% of that time. Then, there is also coordination. Does American football demand coordination? Very, very little. It’s obvious that both soccer and basketball require better motor coordination than football, and it is not debatable. I think that the best way to define NFL players is that they are the largest and most muscular men on Earth that can still sprint for short periods of time. Does that make them the best “athletes”? No, athleticism requires strength, speed, endurance, coordination, situational awareness, etc. American football requires only strength and some sprinting ability.

    No one in the World cares about or watches American football besides Americans. Let that sink in.

    • Replies: @Truth
  139. @Truth

    Burroughs also didn’t medal in 2016. Dake received a bronze in 2021. Both have been bested by Caucasus region guys. Burroughs is a stud, Dake is a stud, leave it at that.

  140. @Pincher Martin

    All 3 you mention played on really good teams at certain parts of their careers. I’m not favoring Maravich over those 3, but his peers respected him enough to put him in the HOF. If only because of college, why is Christian Laettner not in the hall as an individual player?

  141. @Ron Mexico

    My recollection is that Pete Maravich became a really good all-around player fairly late in his NBA career. He had an unusual career as a college prodigy, then a disappointment in the NBA, then a fine wily veteran. Then I think he got hurt and his career ended pretty quickly. So fans’ opinions about Maravich tend to be like four blind men and the elephant depending on when they were most following basketball.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  142. Truth says:
    @Zero Philosopher

    hen, there is also coordination. Does American football demand coordination?

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LZaWci_kznY

  143. @Ron Mexico

    But I was simply comparing their individual stats, not their team records. And sometimes playing on a good or great team will lower a great player’s individual stats more than playing on a bad team. Wilt Chamberlain’s two championship seasons, for example, came during unremarkable individual years for him. The same is true for Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and many other great players.

  144. @Steve Sailer

    I don’t think there is any statistical evidence to support this.

    For the 1970-71 season, his rookie year, Maravich averaged 23.2 PPG and was selected to the NBA’s All-rookie team that included these players – Dave Cowens (Rookie of the Year), Bob Lanier, Calvin Murphy, and Geoff Petrie.

    Maravich had a sophomore jinx, in which his scoring averaged dipped to 19.9 PPG, but he recovered in the 1972-73 season to make the All-NBA second team with a 26.1 scoring average. Also making the All-NBA 2nd team that year were Walt Frazier, Elvin Hayes, Rick Barry and Dave Cowens. Heady company for only his third year. He also made the all-star team that year.

    Over the next five years, Maravich would make 2 more All-NBA 1st teams, one more All-NBA second teams, and four more All-Star games. His best scoring year was in 1976-77, just his seventh year in the league. He also was third in the MVP voting that year.

    So his best scoring years were his seventh (31.1), his fourth (27.7), his eighth (27.0) and his third years (26.1) in the league. I would bet that is about average for an NBA scoring star, especially a wingman. Larry Bird and George Gervin, for example, had their best scoring years in their ninth years in the league; Bernard King in his eighth; Adrian Dantley in his sixth and ninth seasons (tied); and Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson in their tenth seasons.

    Only a few players, like Rick Barry (2nd season) and Michael Jordan (third season), stand out to me as players whose statistical scoring years peaked early in their careers. So Maravich was pretty typical in his development.

  145. @Mike Tre

    Any professional sports team that chooses players on any criteria other than talent is going to be a consistent loser in the long run and the management won’t last. If blacks dominate track and field worldwide, it stands to reason they would be overrepresented in sports where speed and leaping ability are highly important.
    Blacks were a complete non- factor in tennis until Richard Williams decided he was going to turn his young daughters into the best in the world and did it. No one could name a champion black golfer until Tiger Woods father decided to make his son the best in the world. It is a matter of which sports are exposed to the youth at an early age and which are highly compensated for winning.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Mike Tre
  146. @John Frank

    Calvin Peete, the best black golfer of the 1980s (he won 12 times on tour from 1979-1986), didn’t start playing golf until his 20s. A white star of the 1980s, Larry Nelson, was similar. But I haven’t heard of anybody since. Probably competition has gotten tougher and not using your teen years to hone your skills is now a permanent bar from the top ranks of golf.

    • Agree: John Frank
  147. @Mike Tre

    No. It is evidence that more Eastern Europeans have improved enough in the last 2 decades to be drafted by the NBA.

  148. Twinkie says:
    @Truth

    Well, Nomura calls him “The King.”

    Nomura 1) was being gracious and 2) didn’t say anything about Riner being the greatest – certainly not in skill or athleticism. He was talking about Riner possibly matching his own record of winning three individual gold medals in Judo (still unequaled by anyone, including Riner).

    If you knew anything about Judo, watching Riner and Nomura’s respective matches would quickly disabuse you of any notion that Riner is even close to Nomura in skill or athleticism. Nomura, of course, fought in the U60 KGS.

    Nomura is often mentioned when Judo watchers and practitioners discuss GOAT, along with Koga (U71 KGS and U78 KGS).

    Nomura:

    Koga:

  149. Mike Tre says:
    @John Frank

    “Any professional sports team that chooses players on any criteria other than talent is going to be a consistent loser in the long run and the management won’t last. ”

    Exactly, do you see the rate of GM and head coach turnover in the NFL and NBA? How many GM jobs have black 1st round busts cost? The other part of the problem, especially in football, is that pure speed is considered the most important factor above all else. For receivers in particular, things that should matter as much or more, ie precision route running, drop %, blocking, defense recognition, are taken less into consideration. Not surprisingly, white receivers dominate all 4 of those metrics as compared to blacks.

    Casate football lays it all out plain. Set aside what you’ve been indoctrinated into believing for a few hours and read the data they have there.

  150. @Hibernian

    I’m glad that you brought up Mirotic, Hibernian, but that’s not his story. Nikola Mirotic is a perfect example of why more Whites don’t play in the nba. Not only because of constant racist verbal abuse that is never punished (“White boy!”) that, if the races were reversed, would result in a White player being banned for life, but due to violent crime on the court, which the pretend encyclopedia semi-covered up:

    “On 17 October 2017, Mirotić was sent to the hospital after engaging in a physical altercation with teammate Bobby Portis during practice.”

    Mirotic didn’t “engage in a physical altercation with Portis.” nation of islam thug Bobby Portis committed attempted murder against Mirotic, suckerpunching him and causing multiple facial fractures. Bulls management and the nba “punished” Portis by—banning him for life? having him prosecuted?—not exactly. The Bulls gave Portis his victim’s job.

    black nba players have repeatedly maimed or attempted to maim White players: Rudy Tomjanovich, Payton Pritchard, Joe Burrow, Tomas Satoransky, Jusuf Nurkic, Gordon Hayward, Kristan Porzingas, Kevin Love, et al.

    https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/24200494?q=%22Nikola%20Mirotic%22

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @Hibernian
  151. Hibernian says:
    @Nicholas Stix

    Thanks. Wikipedia did as it usually does pull punches in telling the story. It was a local story for me and there was talk in the local media about how somehow Mirotic brought it on himself, which was revolting. Thanks for listing some other players who were subject to the same kind or similar kinds of things.

  152. Hibernian says:
    @Nicholas Stix

    I tried to find about Tomjanovich in Wikipedia. There’s very little about it in his article but a lot in Kermit Washington’s. The sympathy for Washington is sickening.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Washington

    He never took any responsibility for the incident. Tomjanovich almost died.

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