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Big Night for Year-Round Daylight Savings Time
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Big night for the Year-Round Daylight Savings Time movement, with its two Senate leaders, Marco Rubio (R-FL) and Patty Murray (D-WA), cruising to re-election.

Seriously, does anybody understand the politics of DST? The Senate passed a year-round DST bill this year by acclamation, so there’s no voting record. Is there a latitude or longitude correlation?

Is DST the last idiosyncratic nonpartisan issue?

 
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  1. The trade off is either children going to work in the dark or the sun coming up at 04:30 AM in July is parts of the U.S. when no one is waste. We either move the clock or people move their schedules. There is no free lunch.

    • Replies: @Marquis
    @guest007

    Yep. Mostly affects northern states. It gives us an extra hour of sunlight after work. In June and July I can leave work at 5 and still get 18 holes of golf in. That’s so much more preferable to having the sun rise before 5am.

    Replies: @tyrone

    , @HammerJack
    @guest007


    The trade off is either children going to work in the dark or the sun coming up at 04:30 AM in July
     
    Child labor laws aside, school schedules can easily be shifted later. Daylight at 6pm is vastly more useful than 5am dawn anyway.
    , @VivaLaMigra
    @guest007

    I think you meant "..children going to school in the dark..."

    Unless, of course, you favor a rider to The Marcobot 2016's bill that would repeal all child labor laws!

    , @Anonymous Jew
    @guest007

    Good summation. It’s even worse in Seattle: year-round DST means a late December sunrise a few minutes shy of 9 am. No DST and the Summer Solstice sunrise is 4:11 am. I like Sowell’s version of Friedman: there are no solutions…only trade-offs.

    Replies: @guest007

  2. People living in the Northeast, Midwest and South have a preference for permanent daylight saving time. However, those in the West — home to two states that are on permanent standard time — are split in their views.

    The same poll found that only one-fifth are in favor of resetting the clocks twice a year. I think that the difficulty of resetting digital devices accounts for much of this. There is probably an age disparity; teenagers can reset the oven clock with ease, whereas old timers like me need to calendar it as a half-day project.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @SafeNow

    Cell phones set themselves

    , @Bard of Bumperstickers
    @SafeNow

    The answer is national divorce:
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/11/thomas-woods/after-yesterday-time-to-consider-radical-ideas/

    Both sides won the midterms:
    https://dossier.substack.com/p/balkanized-future-midterms-deliver?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=69009&post_id=83538668&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email

    America's founding principle was secession: the privilege of free men. We are currently slaves. A slave may not refuse, choose, keep the fruit of his labor . . . nor leave. Time to leave. 2022 = 1776. Our country belongs to the globalists, not us.

    “Once one concedes that a single world government is not necessary, then where does one logically stop at the permissibility of separate states? If Canada and the United States can be separate nations without being denounced as in a state of impermissible ‘anarchy’, why may not the South secede from the United States? New York State from the Union? New York City from the state? Why may not Manhattan secede? Each neighbourhood? Each block? Each house? Each person?” ― Murray N. Rothbard

    , @Bill Jones
    @SafeNow

    My dog votes against half of the re-sets.
    He loves the one where he gets fed an hour earlier.
    Hates the Fall.

    Replies: @HbutnotG

  3. @guest007
    The trade off is either children going to work in the dark or the sun coming up at 04:30 AM in July is parts of the U.S. when no one is waste. We either move the clock or people move their schedules. There is no free lunch.

    Replies: @Marquis, @HammerJack, @VivaLaMigra, @Anonymous Jew

    Yep. Mostly affects northern states. It gives us an extra hour of sunlight after work. In June and July I can leave work at 5 and still get 18 holes of golf in. That’s so much more preferable to having the sun rise before 5am.

    • Replies: @tyrone
    @Marquis


    That’s so much more preferable to having the sun rise before 5am.
     
    ......unless you are a little kid waiting for the bus.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Marquis

  4. does anybody understand the politics of DST?

    Easy, who are the lobbies for Year-round DST? There seem to be some. Against? I am not aware of any. For side wins. It is like one of those let’s rename Anytown Post Office to John Q Nobody Post office Bill. Nobody reads it and it passes by unanimous consent.

  5. Well the Senate didn’t know the bill they were passing included Permanent Daylight Savings Time.

    • Replies: @Technite78
    @Redneck farmer

    That suggests an interesting experiment. I wonder what kind of mischief can be embedded in a large bill without being noticed? I suppose you couldn't get away with something that was blatantly unconstitutional... but it would at least be amusing.

    Replies: @epebble

  6. Seriously, does anybody understand the politics of DST?

    I heard year-round DST is a threat to Democracy and is supported by Putin.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Hypnotoad666

    Now you're talking! That's how we get things done around here!

  7. I did a year in Turkey. Just got rid of DST there. Really liked not moving clocks. If you want to get up earlier or the like just move your schedule around. But the DST switch feels so jarring to suddenly have a different time of sunrise, set. Much more gradual otherwise. Can leave wakeup time same all year round. Less issues with timing of outdoor exercise.

  8. It’s Daylight Saving Time, no “s”.

    It’s fun to geek out on a time zone map every now and then. There are countries and locales that do strange things with time zones. E.g., Spain which is same longitude as the UK but is on the same time as the rest of Western Europe. In effect that gives her daylight saving time in the winter and double DST in the spring/summer/half of fall. There are other similar examples, including Michigan here in the USA. Then there are places that differ by 30 minutes from borderline time zones.

    I don’t see what the big deal is with changing one hour twice a year. People drive across one hour of time difference all the time, not to mention the many hours via air travel. Everyone adapts. It’s not perfect but it’s better than having ridiculously late sunrises in early winter and wasting an hour of daylight in the very early morning in the summer.

    I do think it starts too early in the US now, giving late sunrises in March. It should go back to starting the first Sunday in April and end the last Sunday in October.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Ripple Earthdevil

    The pro-changing DST folks won big in the 1990s, achieving the maximum of their goals by making DST last about 8 months, so then they sort of disbanded.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Ripple Earthdevil


    There are countries and locales that do strange things with time zones.
     
    It's a jump of 3½ hours at the Chinese-Afghan border. Not that anyone can cross, except local tribesmen whose smallest unit of time is the day.

    Nobody but soldiers is allowed in the entire county on the Chinese side. Not that anyone would want to be. It's on Peking time, despite being as far from there as the eastern suburbs of LA are from Washington, DC. (These latitudes are ~ 37°, 40°, 34°, and 39°N, respectively, if you're thinking of DST.)

    At least this transplanted new bride doesn't have to change her watch!



    https://youtu.be/XIroQN1SZKY

    Replies: @SaneClownPosse

  9. @Marquis
    @guest007

    Yep. Mostly affects northern states. It gives us an extra hour of sunlight after work. In June and July I can leave work at 5 and still get 18 holes of golf in. That’s so much more preferable to having the sun rise before 5am.

    Replies: @tyrone

    That’s so much more preferable to having the sun rise before 5am.

    ……unless you are a little kid waiting for the bus.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @tyrone

    If only it were somehow possible to adjust school schedules! Naaah...

    , @Marquis
    @tyrone

    Uh…that’s the summer. Shifting daylight savings time makes it lighter earlier in the Winter months when most kids are in school.

  10. Year round daylight saving was tried in Britain from 1968 to 1970, but the experiment was dropped because it was very unpopular in Scotland, which lies further west than England. In general, the effect is most pronounced in the west of a time zone.

    • Agree: VivaLaMigra
    • Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday
    @Philip Neal

    Agree. I live in Boise, which at approx. 42 deg. N, at the far west end of the Mountain Time Zone. Shoot, we're further west than Las Vegas, which is on Pacific Time, so in January the sun comes up at 8:20 in the morning. I sure as hell don't want it coming up an hour later than that. Strangely, the panhandle is on Pacific Time, which probably has something to do with that part of the state being economically connected to Spokane.

  11. @Ripple Earthdevil
    It's Daylight Saving Time, no "s".

    It's fun to geek out on a time zone map every now and then. There are countries and locales that do strange things with time zones. E.g., Spain which is same longitude as the UK but is on the same time as the rest of Western Europe. In effect that gives her daylight saving time in the winter and double DST in the spring/summer/half of fall. There are other similar examples, including Michigan here in the USA. Then there are places that differ by 30 minutes from borderline time zones.

    I don't see what the big deal is with changing one hour twice a year. People drive across one hour of time difference all the time, not to mention the many hours via air travel. Everyone adapts. It's not perfect but it's better than having ridiculously late sunrises in early winter and wasting an hour of daylight in the very early morning in the summer.

    I do think it starts too early in the US now, giving late sunrises in March. It should go back to starting the first Sunday in April and end the last Sunday in October.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Reg Cæsar

    The pro-changing DST folks won big in the 1990s, achieving the maximum of their goals by making DST last about 8 months, so then they sort of disbanded.

  12. As I recall reading, during the Soviet Stalin era the USSR was all on Moscow Standard Time.

    So their 7 time zones all had the same “time” reference.

    Comrades in the Pacific east were told to “wake up” at midnight. The sun was coming up there.

    Mostly Zek gulag prisoners, so it didn’t matter much…

    • Replies: @epebble
    @Muggles

    Comrades in the Pacific east were told to “wake up” at midnight.

    They woke up at 0 Hours, but it was daybreak. Midnight occurred at 18 Hours.

    , @Sgt. Joe Friday
    @Muggles

    Well, if 1800 hours was "midnight," did that means the bars closed at 2000 hours?

  13. @Muggles
    As I recall reading, during the Soviet Stalin era the USSR was all on Moscow Standard Time.

    So their 7 time zones all had the same "time" reference.

    Comrades in the Pacific east were told to "wake up" at midnight. The sun was coming up there.

    Mostly Zek gulag prisoners, so it didn't matter much...

    Replies: @epebble, @Sgt. Joe Friday

    Comrades in the Pacific east were told to “wake up” at midnight.

    They woke up at 0 Hours, but it was daybreak. Midnight occurred at 18 Hours.

  14. The DST fans seem to not value their warm summer nights much. If I owned one of the few remaining drive-in movie theaters, I would lobby against DST.

  15. @guest007
    The trade off is either children going to work in the dark or the sun coming up at 04:30 AM in July is parts of the U.S. when no one is waste. We either move the clock or people move their schedules. There is no free lunch.

    Replies: @Marquis, @HammerJack, @VivaLaMigra, @Anonymous Jew

    The trade off is either children going to work in the dark or the sun coming up at 04:30 AM in July

    Child labor laws aside, school schedules can easily be shifted later. Daylight at 6pm is vastly more useful than 5am dawn anyway.

  16. @Hypnotoad666

    Seriously, does anybody understand the politics of DST?
     
    I heard year-round DST is a threat to Democracy and is supported by Putin.

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Now you’re talking! That’s how we get things done around here!

  17. @tyrone
    @Marquis


    That’s so much more preferable to having the sun rise before 5am.
     
    ......unless you are a little kid waiting for the bus.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Marquis

    If only it were somehow possible to adjust school schedules! Naaah…

  18. @Redneck farmer
    Well the Senate didn't know the bill they were passing included Permanent Daylight Savings Time.

    Replies: @Technite78

    That suggests an interesting experiment. I wonder what kind of mischief can be embedded in a large bill without being noticed? I suppose you couldn’t get away with something that was blatantly unconstitutional… but it would at least be amusing.

    • Replies: @epebble
    @Technite78

    Happens all the time. They pass the first bill in a hurry, notice errors, pass a fix bill. They usually call it a "Technical amendment" - there is no computer or software in it - mostly typos, grammar and incorrect numbers.

    Exhibit #1: Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) is so complex, it continues to need Technical Amendments.

    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/technical-amendment#

  19. @SafeNow
    People living in the Northeast, Midwest and South have a preference for permanent daylight saving time. However, those in the West — home to two states that are on permanent standard time — are split in their views.

    The same poll found that only one-fifth are in favor of resetting the clocks twice a year. I think that the difficulty of resetting digital devices accounts for much of this. There is probably an age disparity; teenagers can reset the oven clock with ease, whereas old timers like me need to calendar it as a half-day project.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Bard of Bumperstickers, @Bill Jones

    Cell phones set themselves

  20. Nope. Still don’t get it. What’s the big deal with DST? Figured I’d understand all the complaints when I hit my 50’s.

    Still don’t get it.

    Still think all the whiners should just go cry in their pillow. Maybe put a mask on.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @LadyTheo
    @ATate

    I think where you come down on permanent DST depends on which side of a time zone you reside. In Indiana, on the western edge of PST, in July, the sun didn't set until 10:30. And in the middle of July, it didn't get light until almost 7:00. I HATED DST while I lived there.

    OTOH, if you live in eastern Maine, DST means the sun doesn't come up at 4:30 ish.

    The thing that everyone ignores (or is ignorant of) is that the human circadian rhythym--and thus, human health--is tied to early morning daylight. Daylight striking the eyes in the early morning hours, versus the late evening hours, is conducive to human health. There are health costs to DST. But this is not a topic I have ever seen discussed.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Alden
    @ATate

    I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Every year I see headlines biorhythms disturbed long lasting health effects blah blah. Seems as though it’s getting worse. Probably because all the real jobs moved to China. And it’s either work in fast food or be a freelance journalist writing about trivia like daylight saving time.

    What a nation of wimps nerds sissies and scaredy cats we are. Who even notices the exact level of darkness there is at 4/30 4/45 or 5 pm?

    One thing I like. A couple days after Christmas full dark is delayed for a few minutes every day. About January 5 it’s noticeable. Full dark at 5/30 instead of 5 pm.

    Replies: @HbutnotG

    , @ScarletNumber
    @ATate

    There is a lot of undiagnosed autism in this world, and it unmasks whenever DST comes up.

  21. the airlines are on the other side . . . It affects landing times in Europe and the number of transatlantic flights.

  22. @tyrone
    @Marquis


    That’s so much more preferable to having the sun rise before 5am.
     
    ......unless you are a little kid waiting for the bus.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Marquis

    Uh…that’s the summer. Shifting daylight savings time makes it lighter earlier in the Winter months when most kids are in school.

  23. @Technite78
    @Redneck farmer

    That suggests an interesting experiment. I wonder what kind of mischief can be embedded in a large bill without being noticed? I suppose you couldn't get away with something that was blatantly unconstitutional... but it would at least be amusing.

    Replies: @epebble

    Happens all the time. They pass the first bill in a hurry, notice errors, pass a fix bill. They usually call it a “Technical amendment” – there is no computer or software in it – mostly typos, grammar and incorrect numbers.

    Exhibit #1: Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) is so complex, it continues to need Technical Amendments.

    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/technical-amendment#

  24. ‘Year-round Daylight Savings Time’ is meaningless.

    It just means what we used to call eight o’clock we now call seven o’clock. We could have as easily announced that from now on, school will start at nine, dinner will be served at seven, the children go to bed at eight, etc.

    I’ll also point out the original purpose of the measure was to save energy; in the summer, it’s light at five but no one’s up that early anyway. So adjust the clocks so it stays light in the evening instead.

    I thought we wanted to save the planet. Fucking idiots…

  25. @Ripple Earthdevil
    It's Daylight Saving Time, no "s".

    It's fun to geek out on a time zone map every now and then. There are countries and locales that do strange things with time zones. E.g., Spain which is same longitude as the UK but is on the same time as the rest of Western Europe. In effect that gives her daylight saving time in the winter and double DST in the spring/summer/half of fall. There are other similar examples, including Michigan here in the USA. Then there are places that differ by 30 minutes from borderline time zones.

    I don't see what the big deal is with changing one hour twice a year. People drive across one hour of time difference all the time, not to mention the many hours via air travel. Everyone adapts. It's not perfect but it's better than having ridiculously late sunrises in early winter and wasting an hour of daylight in the very early morning in the summer.

    I do think it starts too early in the US now, giving late sunrises in March. It should go back to starting the first Sunday in April and end the last Sunday in October.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Reg Cæsar

    There are countries and locales that do strange things with time zones.

    It’s a jump of 3½ hours at the Chinese-Afghan border. Not that anyone can cross, except local tribesmen whose smallest unit of time is the day.

    Nobody but soldiers is allowed in the entire county on the Chinese side. Not that anyone would want to be. It’s on Peking time, despite being as far from there as the eastern suburbs of LA are from Washington, DC. (These latitudes are ~ 37°, 40°, 34°, and 39°N, respectively, if you’re thinking of DST.)

    At least this transplanted new bride doesn’t have to change her watch!

    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
    @Reg Cæsar

    The US media outlets should also have their funding sources exposed.

  26. Permanent DST. A dumb idea pushed by a Dummy Crap and a guy with RINO Stink all over him. What could possibly go wrong?

    Seriously, we need kids going to school in the dark for at least half the school year? Remember, a “time zone” is a rather wide swath of territory; a state like South Carolina is about half an hour behind New England as far as sunrise goes. Maine could easily be on “Atlantic Time” – an hour ahead of Eastern – that’s where Canada’s Maritime Provinces, and Puerto Rico are. PR doesn’t go on DST; in the summer that puts them on NYC time, and in winter, an hour ahead. Then there’s the way the time zones are somewhat arbitrarily drawn. A century ago, “Eastern” time was extended as far west as Michigan, because the auto makers and other major manufacturers wanted to operate on the same time schedule as the New York banks. With “Daylight Savings Time” it stays light in Detroit, Cleveland, etc. until after 10 PM at the height of the summer. God knows when the sun would come up from mid December until mid January out there if they were on permanent “Daylight Savings Time.” .

    Perhaps instead of messing with “Daylihght Savings Time” the Marcobot 2016 could investigate changes to the time zone boundaries. That is, when he doesn’t have something more important to do, such as engineering ways to AMNESTY millions of ILLEGAL ALIENS!

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @VivaLaMigra


    Maine could easily be on “Atlantic Time” – an hour ahead of Eastern – that’s where Canada’s Maritime Provinces, and Puerto Rico are.
     
    This isn't a true statement, as Houlton, Maine, the last exit on 95, is properly part of the Eastern Time Zone. You might make an argument that Washington County could use Atlantic Time, but that is literally 2.3% of Maine's population, so it wouldn't be worth the hassle. As you noted, New Brunswick properly uses Atlantic Time.

    With “Daylight Savings Time” it stays light in Detroit, Cleveland, etc. until after 10 PM at the height of the summer.
     
    At its very latest, sunset in Indianapolis is 9:17 PM, so light at 10 in Detroit and Cleveland is a slight exaggeration.
  27. @ATate
    Nope. Still don’t get it. What’s the big deal with DST? Figured I’d understand all the complaints when I hit my 50’s.

    Still don’t get it.

    Still think all the whiners should just go cry in their pillow. Maybe put a mask on.

    Replies: @LadyTheo, @Alden, @ScarletNumber

    I think where you come down on permanent DST depends on which side of a time zone you reside. In Indiana, on the western edge of PST, in July, the sun didn’t set until 10:30. And in the middle of July, it didn’t get light until almost 7:00. I HATED DST while I lived there.

    OTOH, if you live in eastern Maine, DST means the sun doesn’t come up at 4:30 ish.

    The thing that everyone ignores (or is ignorant of) is that the human circadian rhythym–and thus, human health–is tied to early morning daylight. Daylight striking the eyes in the early morning hours, versus the late evening hours, is conducive to human health. There are health costs to DST. But this is not a topic I have ever seen discussed.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @LadyTheo


    In Indiana, on the western edge of PST [sic], in July, the sun didn’t set until 10:30. And in the middle of July, it didn’t get light until almost 7:00. I HATED DST while I lived there.
     
    This isn't a true statement. The latest the sun sets in Terra Haute is 9:21, and you can't get much furthest west in the eastern time zone than Terra Haute. Also, the earliest sunrise is 6:22. So that's 14:59 of sun, with high noon occurring at 1:51 pm.

    Replies: @HbutnotG

  28. @guest007
    The trade off is either children going to work in the dark or the sun coming up at 04:30 AM in July is parts of the U.S. when no one is waste. We either move the clock or people move their schedules. There is no free lunch.

    Replies: @Marquis, @HammerJack, @VivaLaMigra, @Anonymous Jew

    I think you meant “..children going to school in the dark…”

    Unless, of course, you favor a rider to The Marcobot 2016’s bill that would repeal all child labor laws!

  29. @ATate
    Nope. Still don’t get it. What’s the big deal with DST? Figured I’d understand all the complaints when I hit my 50’s.

    Still don’t get it.

    Still think all the whiners should just go cry in their pillow. Maybe put a mask on.

    Replies: @LadyTheo, @Alden, @ScarletNumber

    I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Every year I see headlines biorhythms disturbed long lasting health effects blah blah. Seems as though it’s getting worse. Probably because all the real jobs moved to China. And it’s either work in fast food or be a freelance journalist writing about trivia like daylight saving time.

    What a nation of wimps nerds sissies and scaredy cats we are. Who even notices the exact level of darkness there is at 4/30 4/45 or 5 pm?

    One thing I like. A couple days after Christmas full dark is delayed for a few minutes every day. About January 5 it’s noticeable. Full dark at 5/30 instead of 5 pm.

    • Replies: @HbutnotG
    @Alden

    Actually sunsets go later after December 8th or 9th. But sunrise continues to get later until Jan 7.

  30. Dumb idea–at least nationally. If you’re on it year round, then just be on standard time and change your work/school/store hours.

    Individual states–different matter. They can be keeping hours in sync with national policies and getting the light level they want.

  31. @guest007
    The trade off is either children going to work in the dark or the sun coming up at 04:30 AM in July is parts of the U.S. when no one is waste. We either move the clock or people move their schedules. There is no free lunch.

    Replies: @Marquis, @HammerJack, @VivaLaMigra, @Anonymous Jew

    Good summation. It’s even worse in Seattle: year-round DST means a late December sunrise a few minutes shy of 9 am. No DST and the Summer Solstice sunrise is 4:11 am. I like Sowell’s version of Friedman: there are no solutions…only trade-offs.

    • Replies: @guest007
    @Anonymous Jew

    As Steve has pointed out before, year round DST was tried during the energy crisis in the mid-1970's and everyone hated it. Hawaii does nothave DST but that means that the time of TV events such as live sports just shifts twice a year and when can call the east coast changes. Arizona just spends half a year in Pacific time and half the year in Mountain time. There is no free lunch.

  32. Could the current system be adjusted so that it is symmetrical? The time change (for example 2022-2023) would be Nov 6 2022 to Feb 2 2023. If the daylight of Nov. 5 is ok then the daylight of Feb 3 should be too.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @newrouter

    But the weather lags the sun, so kids' sports seasons aren't symmetrical. Kids are playing football and soccer outdoors on October 21 (two months before the winter solstice), typically on unlit fields, but playing indoor sports like basketball, or at least outdoors on lit courts in February 21 (two months after).

    Replies: @newrouter

  33. @Philip Neal
    Year round daylight saving was tried in Britain from 1968 to 1970, but the experiment was dropped because it was very unpopular in Scotland, which lies further west than England. In general, the effect is most pronounced in the west of a time zone.

    Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday

    Agree. I live in Boise, which at approx. 42 deg. N, at the far west end of the Mountain Time Zone. Shoot, we’re further west than Las Vegas, which is on Pacific Time, so in January the sun comes up at 8:20 in the morning. I sure as hell don’t want it coming up an hour later than that. Strangely, the panhandle is on Pacific Time, which probably has something to do with that part of the state being economically connected to Spokane.

  34. @Muggles
    As I recall reading, during the Soviet Stalin era the USSR was all on Moscow Standard Time.

    So their 7 time zones all had the same "time" reference.

    Comrades in the Pacific east were told to "wake up" at midnight. The sun was coming up there.

    Mostly Zek gulag prisoners, so it didn't matter much...

    Replies: @epebble, @Sgt. Joe Friday

    Well, if 1800 hours was “midnight,” did that means the bars closed at 2000 hours?

  35. @newrouter
    Could the current system be adjusted so that it is symmetrical? The time change (for example 2022-2023) would be Nov 6 2022 to Feb 2 2023. If the daylight of Nov. 5 is ok then the daylight of Feb 3 should be too.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    But the weather lags the sun, so kids’ sports seasons aren’t symmetrical. Kids are playing football and soccer outdoors on October 21 (two months before the winter solstice), typically on unlit fields, but playing indoor sports like basketball, or at least outdoors on lit courts in February 21 (two months after).

    • Agree: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @newrouter
    @Steve Sailer

    Say what? What does Oct21 have to do with Nov 6? Take 2 covid boosters and reply in the morning.

  36. @Steve Sailer
    @newrouter

    But the weather lags the sun, so kids' sports seasons aren't symmetrical. Kids are playing football and soccer outdoors on October 21 (two months before the winter solstice), typically on unlit fields, but playing indoor sports like basketball, or at least outdoors on lit courts in February 21 (two months after).

    Replies: @newrouter

    Say what? What does Oct21 have to do with Nov 6? Take 2 covid boosters and reply in the morning.

  37. If we’re going to die violently and the economy will never get better, what the hell does it matter what time it is?

  38. These discussions always include a number of people who believe that the actual length of the day is being legislated.

    • Replies: @Thea
    @HammerJack

    The length of a day is actually increasing slowly. At some point we will have to account for it. Computer systems will need modifications that will be a PITA.

  39. @SafeNow
    People living in the Northeast, Midwest and South have a preference for permanent daylight saving time. However, those in the West — home to two states that are on permanent standard time — are split in their views.

    The same poll found that only one-fifth are in favor of resetting the clocks twice a year. I think that the difficulty of resetting digital devices accounts for much of this. There is probably an age disparity; teenagers can reset the oven clock with ease, whereas old timers like me need to calendar it as a half-day project.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Bard of Bumperstickers, @Bill Jones

    The answer is national divorce:
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2022/11/thomas-woods/after-yesterday-time-to-consider-radical-ideas/

    Both sides won the midterms:
    https://dossier.substack.com/p/balkanized-future-midterms-deliver?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=69009&post_id=83538668&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email

    America’s founding principle was secession: the privilege of free men. We are currently slaves. A slave may not refuse, choose, keep the fruit of his labor . . . nor leave. Time to leave. 2022 = 1776. Our country belongs to the globalists, not us.

    “Once one concedes that a single world government is not necessary, then where does one logically stop at the permissibility of separate states? If Canada and the United States can be separate nations without being denounced as in a state of impermissible ‘anarchy’, why may not the South secede from the United States? New York State from the Union? New York City from the state? Why may not Manhattan secede? Each neighbourhood? Each block? Each house? Each person?” ― Murray N. Rothbard

  40. @Anonymous Jew
    @guest007

    Good summation. It’s even worse in Seattle: year-round DST means a late December sunrise a few minutes shy of 9 am. No DST and the Summer Solstice sunrise is 4:11 am. I like Sowell’s version of Friedman: there are no solutions…only trade-offs.

    Replies: @guest007

    As Steve has pointed out before, year round DST was tried during the energy crisis in the mid-1970’s and everyone hated it. Hawaii does nothave DST but that means that the time of TV events such as live sports just shifts twice a year and when can call the east coast changes. Arizona just spends half a year in Pacific time and half the year in Mountain time. There is no free lunch.

  41. Changing the clocks twice a year doesn’t seem to be overly onerous after one gets accustomed to doing so every other evening, or if one’s course is close to E/W, and at full speed, every evening.

  42. @HammerJack
    These discussions always include a number of people who believe that the actual length of the day is being legislated.

    Replies: @Thea

    The length of a day is actually increasing slowly. At some point we will have to account for it. Computer systems will need modifications that will be a PITA.

  43. @ATate
    Nope. Still don’t get it. What’s the big deal with DST? Figured I’d understand all the complaints when I hit my 50’s.

    Still don’t get it.

    Still think all the whiners should just go cry in their pillow. Maybe put a mask on.

    Replies: @LadyTheo, @Alden, @ScarletNumber

    There is a lot of undiagnosed autism in this world, and it unmasks whenever DST comes up.

  44. @VivaLaMigra
    Permanent DST. A dumb idea pushed by a Dummy Crap and a guy with RINO Stink all over him. What could possibly go wrong?

    Seriously, we need kids going to school in the dark for at least half the school year? Remember, a "time zone" is a rather wide swath of territory; a state like South Carolina is about half an hour behind New England as far as sunrise goes. Maine could easily be on "Atlantic Time" - an hour ahead of Eastern - that's where Canada's Maritime Provinces, and Puerto Rico are. PR doesn't go on DST; in the summer that puts them on NYC time, and in winter, an hour ahead. Then there's the way the time zones are somewhat arbitrarily drawn. A century ago, "Eastern" time was extended as far west as Michigan, because the auto makers and other major manufacturers wanted to operate on the same time schedule as the New York banks. With "Daylight Savings Time" it stays light in Detroit, Cleveland, etc. until after 10 PM at the height of the summer. God knows when the sun would come up from mid December until mid January out there if they were on permanent "Daylight Savings Time." .

    Perhaps instead of messing with "Daylihght Savings Time" the Marcobot 2016 could investigate changes to the time zone boundaries. That is, when he doesn't have something more important to do, such as engineering ways to AMNESTY millions of ILLEGAL ALIENS!

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Maine could easily be on “Atlantic Time” – an hour ahead of Eastern – that’s where Canada’s Maritime Provinces, and Puerto Rico are.

    This isn’t a true statement, as Houlton, Maine, the last exit on 95, is properly part of the Eastern Time Zone. You might make an argument that Washington County could use Atlantic Time, but that is literally 2.3% of Maine’s population, so it wouldn’t be worth the hassle. As you noted, New Brunswick properly uses Atlantic Time.

    With “Daylight Savings Time” it stays light in Detroit, Cleveland, etc. until after 10 PM at the height of the summer.

    At its very latest, sunset in Indianapolis is 9:17 PM, so light at 10 in Detroit and Cleveland is a slight exaggeration.

  45. @LadyTheo
    @ATate

    I think where you come down on permanent DST depends on which side of a time zone you reside. In Indiana, on the western edge of PST, in July, the sun didn't set until 10:30. And in the middle of July, it didn't get light until almost 7:00. I HATED DST while I lived there.

    OTOH, if you live in eastern Maine, DST means the sun doesn't come up at 4:30 ish.

    The thing that everyone ignores (or is ignorant of) is that the human circadian rhythym--and thus, human health--is tied to early morning daylight. Daylight striking the eyes in the early morning hours, versus the late evening hours, is conducive to human health. There are health costs to DST. But this is not a topic I have ever seen discussed.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    In Indiana, on the western edge of PST [sic], in July, the sun didn’t set until 10:30. And in the middle of July, it didn’t get light until almost 7:00. I HATED DST while I lived there.

    This isn’t a true statement. The latest the sun sets in Terra Haute is 9:21, and you can’t get much furthest west in the eastern time zone than Terra Haute. Also, the earliest sunrise is 6:22. So that’s 14:59 of sun, with high noon occurring at 1:51 pm.

    • Agree: HbutnotG
    • Replies: @HbutnotG
    @ScarletNumber

    Indiana is the western edge of EDT and EST. Sunset in Indianapolis in late June is 9:15. In December, it's 5:15 or so and still a peek of daylight at 6. I couldn't care less whether it's light or dark when I hafta get up in the morning to go to work. It's depressing no matter what. So glad I'm done with that!

    DST all year is best. Unless you're some work-at-home girl, who on earth wants to get home from work in the dark (oh..that's right, the boys today want home at 1 PM, feet up, Porn Hub time.) Lazy bastards - and those are the ones that "work." Where I live it's light out til 10:30 in late June - now that's summer!

    Nothing more depressing than Boston, Green Bay, Evansville, Cheyenne, Palm Springs CA, or Spokane in December - midnight around 5 o'clock. Eat dinner in the dark? meh. Give me Grand Rapids, Terre Haute, Midland TX, Thunder Bay, or better yet, that part of Mexico W of El Paso.

  46. Who would be stupid enough to think that one could cut an inch off the bottom of a blanket, sew it on to the top of the blanket, and wind up with a bigger blanket?

  47. @SafeNow
    People living in the Northeast, Midwest and South have a preference for permanent daylight saving time. However, those in the West — home to two states that are on permanent standard time — are split in their views.

    The same poll found that only one-fifth are in favor of resetting the clocks twice a year. I think that the difficulty of resetting digital devices accounts for much of this. There is probably an age disparity; teenagers can reset the oven clock with ease, whereas old timers like me need to calendar it as a half-day project.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber, @Bard of Bumperstickers, @Bill Jones

    My dog votes against half of the re-sets.
    He loves the one where he gets fed an hour earlier.
    Hates the Fall.

    • Replies: @HbutnotG
    @Bill Jones

    You should be all for year round DST. With DST you get an extra hour of sleep before you have to climb out of bed and let him out to take a dump. Screw that! When Tippy Joe the Boston terrier died I got a cat (he shits on his own time)

  48. if Democrats aren’t cheating, why does it take a week to count the votes in certain races?

    of course they’re cheating. anybody who says otherwise is a Democrat or a moron.

    yeah, it’s true that not all elections where the Republican lost was due to Democrats cheating. but some of them are.

    ignore nominally Dissident Right associated people who swear up and down there is no cheating. Ann Coulter and company are just flat out wrong.

  49. All I know is that ever since this past weekend, I’m now staring directly into the sun on my way to AND from work.

  50. @ScarletNumber
    @LadyTheo


    In Indiana, on the western edge of PST [sic], in July, the sun didn’t set until 10:30. And in the middle of July, it didn’t get light until almost 7:00. I HATED DST while I lived there.
     
    This isn't a true statement. The latest the sun sets in Terra Haute is 9:21, and you can't get much furthest west in the eastern time zone than Terra Haute. Also, the earliest sunrise is 6:22. So that's 14:59 of sun, with high noon occurring at 1:51 pm.

    Replies: @HbutnotG

    Indiana is the western edge of EDT and EST. Sunset in Indianapolis in late June is 9:15. In December, it’s 5:15 or so and still a peek of daylight at 6. I couldn’t care less whether it’s light or dark when I hafta get up in the morning to go to work. It’s depressing no matter what. So glad I’m done with that!

    DST all year is best. Unless you’re some work-at-home girl, who on earth wants to get home from work in the dark (oh..that’s right, the boys today want home at 1 PM, feet up, Porn Hub time.) Lazy bastards – and those are the ones that “work.” Where I live it’s light out til 10:30 in late June – now that’s summer!

    Nothing more depressing than Boston, Green Bay, Evansville, Cheyenne, Palm Springs CA, or Spokane in December – midnight around 5 o’clock. Eat dinner in the dark? meh. Give me Grand Rapids, Terre Haute, Midland TX, Thunder Bay, or better yet, that part of Mexico W of El Paso.

  51. @Bill Jones
    @SafeNow

    My dog votes against half of the re-sets.
    He loves the one where he gets fed an hour earlier.
    Hates the Fall.

    Replies: @HbutnotG

    You should be all for year round DST. With DST you get an extra hour of sleep before you have to climb out of bed and let him out to take a dump. Screw that! When Tippy Joe the Boston terrier died I got a cat (he shits on his own time)

  52. @Alden
    @ATate

    I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Every year I see headlines biorhythms disturbed long lasting health effects blah blah. Seems as though it’s getting worse. Probably because all the real jobs moved to China. And it’s either work in fast food or be a freelance journalist writing about trivia like daylight saving time.

    What a nation of wimps nerds sissies and scaredy cats we are. Who even notices the exact level of darkness there is at 4/30 4/45 or 5 pm?

    One thing I like. A couple days after Christmas full dark is delayed for a few minutes every day. About January 5 it’s noticeable. Full dark at 5/30 instead of 5 pm.

    Replies: @HbutnotG

    Actually sunsets go later after December 8th or 9th. But sunrise continues to get later until Jan 7.

  53. Well, I live above the Arctic Circle so DST doesn’t make a lick of difference. Headlamps and streetlights is how we cope with the darkness.

  54. Anon[404] • Disclaimer says:

    There’s no solution that will please everyone. Depends on your lifestyle and location. For me, living in San Francisco and typically waking around 8, I’d love year round DST. An early riser in Seattle might hate it, and for good reason.

    I don’t see why this needs to be set at the national level. Seems like it would be best to leave it up to the states. What’s ideal for Florida may not work well for Montana. Yes, there will be some confusion for people traveling/working cross state, but it will be a minor inconvenience. We already have to deal with multiple time zones (sometimes in the same state).

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Currently, Arizona opts out of doing DST at all and does standard time year round. The Arizona state motto is "Hurry, Sundown." I believe federal law lets you do that but it doesn't let states pick their own start and stop dates for DST.

    Replies: @Anon

  55. @Anon
    There's no solution that will please everyone. Depends on your lifestyle and location. For me, living in San Francisco and typically waking around 8, I'd love year round DST. An early riser in Seattle might hate it, and for good reason.

    I don't see why this needs to be set at the national level. Seems like it would be best to leave it up to the states. What's ideal for Florida may not work well for Montana. Yes, there will be some confusion for people traveling/working cross state, but it will be a minor inconvenience. We already have to deal with multiple time zones (sometimes in the same state).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Currently, Arizona opts out of doing DST at all and does standard time year round. The Arizona state motto is “Hurry, Sundown.” I believe federal law lets you do that but it doesn’t let states pick their own start and stop dates for DST.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, I learned about Arizona's DST opt out many years ago. I used to travel between LA and Houston on the old US Airways route with a stopover in Phoenix, and after a couple of times saying to myself "huh, I could've sworn Phoenix was on Mountain/Pacific time", I bothered to look it up.

    Permanent standard time is generally a terrible idea for most places, but AZ is arguably an exception. When it's 120 F outside, you're probably looking forward to sunset.

    My recommendation is simply to add year round DST as another option for states that want to experiment with it. Makes no sense to force it on northern states where changing clocks is clearly the best option. I also think DST start should be moved up a couple weeks, most people are losing sunlight by March.

  56. Anon[404] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    Currently, Arizona opts out of doing DST at all and does standard time year round. The Arizona state motto is "Hurry, Sundown." I believe federal law lets you do that but it doesn't let states pick their own start and stop dates for DST.

    Replies: @Anon

    Yes, I learned about Arizona’s DST opt out many years ago. I used to travel between LA and Houston on the old US Airways route with a stopover in Phoenix, and after a couple of times saying to myself “huh, I could’ve sworn Phoenix was on Mountain/Pacific time”, I bothered to look it up.

    Permanent standard time is generally a terrible idea for most places, but AZ is arguably an exception. When it’s 120 F outside, you’re probably looking forward to sunset.

    My recommendation is simply to add year round DST as another option for states that want to experiment with it. Makes no sense to force it on northern states where changing clocks is clearly the best option. I also think DST start should be moved up a couple weeks, most people are losing sunlight by March.

  57. the entire argument is dumb. changing clocks is stupid nonsense. most of the world doesn’t do that.

    indeed, whether your country changes clocks or not is nearly 100% correlated with whether homosexuals and homosexuality are your highest values and two men having random gay sex is the most important thing in your country. GAE countries change clocks, nobody else does. there’s more variation in who drives on what side of the road. there’s more variation in hertz of electrical systems.

    going on a permanent schedule of changing clocks every year is a stupid, dumb idea that showed up in the west, and largely only in the west, after stupid, dumb ideas began to become prevalent in the 1960s and 1970s. changing clocks is nearly as stupid as letting criminals out of prison and going to a no bail system. it’s literally a product of when stupid ideas came to predominate in earnest among the leadership class.

    the entire western world was just about completely built out by the time the stupid, dumb law of permanent clock changing was put into effect. NO, it DOES NOT improve ANYTHING. America was more productive BEFORE this stupid idea was implemented. most stuff was built BEFORE this stupid change was implemented. indeed, the post 1973 productivity and output decline coincides nearly perfectly with implementing permanent yearly clock changing (not at all saying it caused that to happen, but it was definitely related, as stupid ideas came to predominate around that time period).

  58. my parents were alive for 30 years before clocks were changed and wow, the horror stories they told me about how terrible America was in the 40s, 50s, and 60s JUST kidding, it didn’t affect A GOD DAMN thing having the clock always read the same all year every year.

    my parents are also older than Hawaii. America seemed to ok before that place was a state. now some random moron in Hawaii can somehow overrule the President, if he’s a Republican.

  59. View post on imgur.com


    800 million GAE residents change their clocks, the other 7 billion people don’t

  60. @Reg Cæsar
    @Ripple Earthdevil


    There are countries and locales that do strange things with time zones.
     
    It's a jump of 3½ hours at the Chinese-Afghan border. Not that anyone can cross, except local tribesmen whose smallest unit of time is the day.

    Nobody but soldiers is allowed in the entire county on the Chinese side. Not that anyone would want to be. It's on Peking time, despite being as far from there as the eastern suburbs of LA are from Washington, DC. (These latitudes are ~ 37°, 40°, 34°, and 39°N, respectively, if you're thinking of DST.)

    At least this transplanted new bride doesn't have to change her watch!



    https://youtu.be/XIroQN1SZKY

    Replies: @SaneClownPosse

    The US media outlets should also have their funding sources exposed.

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