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From SelectNew91:

Biden Proposes Training Cops to Shoot Attackers in the Leg to Reduce Fatalities

Enrique Bullard June 1, 2020 US Headlines No Comments

Joe Biden suggested Monday that police could train officers to shoot assailants to reduce potential fatalities.

“There is the idea that instead of standing there and teaching an agent when an unarmed person comes at him with a knife or something, shoot him in the leg instead of the heart,” Biden said. “There are many different things [policies] that can change.”

And if the unarmed attackers are armed with a handgun, the police should shoot the unarmed persons in the hand so they drop their arms.

Biden made his comments when meeting with leaders of the African American community at the Bethel AME Church in Wilmington, Del. …

Members of Biden’s staff have donated to groups attempting to release rebels on bail. Campaign spokesman Andrew Bates said Reuters that Biden against cash bail is the equivalent of a “modern prison for debtors”. It was not clear whether the donations were coordinated by the campaign or made individually.

President Trump condemned the donations on Saturday, saying that they would “support financially the chaos that hurts innocent people and destroys what good people have spent their lives building.”

 
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  1. It’s actually one of the most maddeningly uninformed go-to reactions of people who should know better. Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon–aim at center mass and kill the person. Shooting someone in the knee is not something that cops are allowed to do intentionally. And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @JimDandy


    Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon–aim at center mass and kill the person.
     
    Totally wrong. Most gun shot victims who die do so from blood loss and shock. Unfortunately (for police officers or civilians who are defending themselves), that usually takes a while.

    Shooters are trained to aim for center mass, because it offers the most optimal combination of accuracy/hittability and neutralizing/stopping the threat in its track. The surest and the fastest way is actually disabling the central nervous system (CNS), but brains and spinal cords make too small a target (and brains are also encased in pretty hard crania) esp. when the said targets are moving.

    The goal of every legally justified shooting is to stop the aggressor - it is most certainly not to kill explicitly.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @martin_2, @Cato

    , @Thomas
    @JimDandy


    And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.
     
    Not even irrelevant. Modern training tends toward "mag dump until the bad guy is down."

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @dr kill
    @JimDandy

    But I saw The Cisco Kid shoot a gun from a bad guy's hand in Blazing Saddles.

    , @anon
    @JimDandy

    I thought police fired to "stop", not kill. It's difficult to hit certain parts of the body in a confrontation. The torso is the biggest part and easiest to hit or aim for and still stop someone. Why not just ask them to hit the left foot big toe, if your being run at with a machete?
    I've heard of escalation of force, if it's a small knife say a pocket knife, maybe they could try beating the person with a stick. Where did the batons go? How crazy is the person and do you have time for your kung fu style or just enough to shoot?

    "rebels on bail" ???

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @Sam Malone
    @JimDandy

    If police are trained only and always to kill, no wonder they execute so many civilians every year. If killing is the default, then it becomes a reflex and is viewed as justifiable, so they very often wind up choosing to murder people in situations when the person (like Daniel Shaver) is not and cannot be any danger at all to them.

    Obviously with a lot of blacks in this country there are going to be a good number of cases when police have to kill someone to take them down, but there's no excuse for so many of these abuses. So maybe cops shouldn't be trained only and always to kill civilians. Maybe they shouldn't be cops if so many of them apparently get so scared so often.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @JMcG

    , @Pat Boyle
    @JimDandy

    We obviously need more shooting by the police not less. I'm at home partly because of the Covid-19 threat and partly because even if I were inclined to go out, I wouldn't go to a active riot site. Who are these people who do?

    There are curfews in place. I got a phone call myself last evening from the Oakland police telling me I couldn't go out after 8:00 PM. Presumably many of the people I see on the TV riot coverage also got some similar of notice. If they choose to ignore this order - shoot them. It should take only one to get good results.

    In the good old days the British would have some Bobby read "the Riot Act" after which they could take strong measures. In this country most of the riots used to be race riots instigated by whites. Then in the mid-twentieth century it switched. Virtually all the riots today are instigated by blacks. When riots were started by whites we had a rule - shoot looters. Now we don't, and it's clear the nation is not better off for this policy change.

    I propose that the rule be the cops shoot only white looters. In the interest of civic calm - give the blacks another privilege. Blacks cause most of the serious crime, and some day we will have to address that issue, but now it is less inflammatory to shoot only whites. Fortunately there are plenty of real "bad actor" whites out there too.

    If some one breaks a plate glass window on a store front - the police should just blow them away. With modern communications the message will quickly spread and the rioters will disperse. Peace, calm and clear thinking will return. A single prompt police shooting should stop all the trouble almost at once.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

  2. PS

    • Replies: @Truth
    @JimDandy

    Damn, and that's a fat 40 y/o ginger. With your average brother it's like 45 feet.

  3. Biden is a moron.

    Note that the officers who do best are those who make a lateral movement and move off the line of attack.

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Twinkie

    If the assailant's brandishing a knife, wouldn't the cop already have his gun drawn?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    , @Stebbing Heuer
    @Twinkie

    'Get off the X.'

    , @JMcG
    @Twinkie

    A genuine thanks for what you contribute here. You do a good job staying out of the mud. Good luck to you and yours.

    , @David In TN
    @Twinkie

    "Biden is a moron."

    The understatement of the year.

  4. Vo: Look something shinny

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @t

    So, if an unruly white supremacist with a background of terrorizing women of color was pulled over because he committed a crime, and then became crazy and unruly while resisting arrest, and a black officer put his knee in the guy's neck to settle him down, wouldn't the cop be praised widely by The Woke? Would the media even make a peep?

    Well, Floyd did five years in prison for invading a woman's home with a band of thugs and sticking a gun in her gut. Isn't that a #Metoo violation? I mean, it's too late for him to die in a fire, but can't we at least cancel him? Because women?

    Replies: @photondancer, @Known Fact

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @t


    #Black Lives F***ing Matter
     
    Her black life would be lucky to f*** antimatter.
  5. If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?

    • Agree: Smithsonian_6
    • Replies: @Che Blutarsky
    @black sea

    Joe's wife is telling them to shoot to kill anybody with a fever and a cough that gets close to him. Can't be too careful.

    , @The Alarmist
    @black sea


    If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?
     
    No, Biden is so Bad-Ass, he'll neutralise the threats himself.

    https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2097689/82868222.jpg
    , @danand
    @black sea


    “If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?”
     
    Best part is the interviewer:

    https://youtu.be/2_LEfNFMAys?t=15
    , @Muggles
    @black sea

    >>If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?<<

    Did Biden ever tell us how he took Corn Pop down? Some cool jujitsu move? Knife thrust to the gut?

    Did anyone ever hear from Mr. Pop after the incident? Maybe Fightin' Joe isn't as squeamish as he claims.

    Replies: @black sea

  6. When did America get squeamish about shooting looters (center mass, obviously)? Wasn’t that the typical policy after natural disasters in the past?

    I don’t see how you reestablish law and order where it has collapsed without shooting some looters. When the rest surrender, zip tie their hands behind their backs, and load them up in a bus and dump them in a commandeered school gyms or something under guard until order is restored if you run out of prison space. While they’re there, check them for outstanding warrants.

    In a place like Manhattan, they could dump the looters in the Javits Center.

    • Agree: PhysicistDave
    • Replies: @anon
    @Dave Pinsen


    When did America get squeamish about shooting looters
     
    When they started making up a core constituency of the democratic party.

    Replies: @David In TN

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    I was told by a well-informed source that the reason two sports stadia built in Chicago in the early 1990s -- for the Bulls and the White Sox -- are so fortress-like is because they were planned to also serve as backup holding pens for huge numbers of looters, like military coups in Latin America shove their enemies into soccer stadiums.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @silviosilver, @Peter Lund

    , @Thea
    @Dave Pinsen

    One way or another an order will be re-established. What that order looks like is the question.

    Perhaps it will look like Colombia and perhaps Venezuela or even South Africa but it won’t look much like America in the mid to late 20th century .

  7. Assuming the shot hits the leg, it won’t stop necessarily the attacker from stabbing the cop. Joe Biden should volunteer for a real-life experiment, except he can’t probably shoot straight anymore in his dotage.

  8. @Dave Pinsen
    When did America get squeamish about shooting looters (center mass, obviously)? Wasn't that the typical policy after natural disasters in the past?

    I don't see how you reestablish law and order where it has collapsed without shooting some looters. When the rest surrender, zip tie their hands behind their backs, and load them up in a bus and dump them in a commandeered school gyms or something under guard until order is restored if you run out of prison space. While they're there, check them for outstanding warrants.

    In a place like Manhattan, they could dump the looters in the Javits Center.

    Replies: @anon, @Steve Sailer, @Thea

    When did America get squeamish about shooting looters

    When they started making up a core constituency of the democratic party.

    • Agree: danand, Harry Baldwin
    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @David In TN
    @anon

    In 1968 concerning the riots after the King assassination, Chicago Mayor Richard Daley said the police should "Shoot to kill arsonists. Shoot to maim looters."

    For those too young to remember Mayor Daley was a kingmaker in the Democratic party. He "helped" JFK carry Illinois in 1960 by "finding" the necessary votes in Chicago.

    Liberals at the time were horrified by Daley's statement.

  9. So, the DNC’s plan is to burn down the country and then elect a dementia patient.

    And they say there’s nothing new under the sun. It’s the most original strategy in centuries! It’s crazy enough to work! What could possibly go wrong!

    Besides civil war, genocide, World War 3, …

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Che Blutarsky

    Joe Biden - a silhouette standing up to support it's talking head. This is - a miracle.

  10. There’s a name for this drill, by the way. He’s still around. Maybe people should credit his empiricism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    Creepy Uncle Joe’s been watching old TV episodes of “The Lone Ranger” on YouTube again.

    • LOL: David In TN
    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    @anon

    Thanks.

  11. @black sea
    If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?

    Replies: @Che Blutarsky, @The Alarmist, @danand, @Muggles

    Joe’s wife is telling them to shoot to kill anybody with a fever and a cough that gets close to him. Can’t be too careful.

  12. This is cut from the same cloth as Biden’s goofy suggestion a few years ago that the solution to home defense was to keep a double-barreled shotgun and, if you heard something go bump in the night, go outside and fire two blasts off.

    Anyone who would do such a thing in any part of the Northeast Corridor Biden lives in would go to jail for reckless endangerment, if not manslaughter.

    These are the kinds of things somebody who watched too much TV years ago (probably literally Gunsmoke or similar 1950s cowboys-and-Indians shows) and never had another thought about guns would say. Or maybe they’re all that’s left in poor Joe’s head on the topic at this stage of dementia.

    In reality, the training police receive assumes that the “danger zone” within which a knife-armed attacker will be able to close and inflict lethal injury on an officer before the officer can draw and fire is 21 feet. Knives are dangerous: they can kill if they can reach an artery (anywhere you can take your pulse) or a vital organ. And guns don’t reliably kill people with one shot quickly (an aggressive attacker in a high state of excitement and blood oxygenation can survive being shot through the heart for more than a minute).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Thomas

    I'm down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    There are more weapons in the world than guns. And US police should use them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqtny9yj8u8

    I would prefer that police training and tactics evolve.

    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and "enforcers" fourth.

    One particular thing that would mean should be made is that all cops should be trained in de-escalation techniques and also not to yell and scream and try to be ultra-alpha all the time. (all that mostly unintelligible "get down! get down! show me your hands!" stuff that they're always screaming in high stress situations)
    It works fine some 80% or 90% of the time (made-up numbers), but otoh when it DOESN'T work it escalates the situation and then makes use of force more likely. (as an extreme example see e.g. no-knock warrants and 4am raids in general)

    That yelling and screaming at mentally unwell people is especially unhelpful... which is why, unfortunately, if there's someone not right in the head and you call 911 to help them... there's a higher than you'd expect chance that things will escalate to violence.

    This is an interesting story mostly about tasers (partly about how they were silently nerfed several years back and now don't work as well)
    https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/05/09/when-tasers-fail

    But a small part is about alternative methods the Burlington Vermont department adopted a few years back


    There are a couple of items on the Emergency Response Vehicle del Pozo wished the department had back in 2016. One is called a Y-bar. It's an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man's chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance. That way, he couldn't have threatened the officers.

    The rig also carries a couple old-fashioned chrome-plated fire extinguishers, filled with pressurized water.

    "If you spray that at someone's face, they cannot advance toward you," del Pozo said. "They have to look away, or put their hand up in front of their eyes. That and a metal bar shaped like a Y can mean the difference between having to shoot someone or not."
     

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @kaganovitch, @anon

    , @Wizard of Oz
    @Thomas

    Your reference to 21 feet doesn't make total sense if you assume that a police officer is already alert and has drawn his gun. If then the person armed with a knife is running at him a shot to the heart would be necessary. Otherwise the officer should be manoeuvring to keep at least 21 feet between them while doing his best to calm the armed person down and persuade him to drop the knife. After a time when the officer should exercise patience, unless threatened by a third party, and tell him that he is going to arrest him and, if he moves suddenly without dropping the knife, the officer is going to have to shoot him dead. It is indeed a little hard to envisage the circumstances where the officer would shoot for a leg but the police should surely try if they can stand behind some protection, like a car, or some dim character is just standing waving a knife as the officer advances. Special rules will apply when the knife wielder is a deaf non English speaking Hottentot.

  13. Biden is such a dork/feckless weenie. The quintessential middle manager

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Meretricious


    Biden is such a dork/feckless weenie. The quintessential middle manager.
     
    That's an insult to middle managers. Joe couldn't even be an assistant manager, because they actually have to run some things. He's been a U.S. senator and a U.S. vice president, two jobs that don't require any skills at all and have no measures of performance.
    , @anon
    @Meretricious

    Yes. And Trump would never have hired Biden as a middle manager, or for any position (in that thar alternate timeline).

  14. @t
    Vo: Look something shinny

    https://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/1267512182792753155

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Reg Cæsar

    So, if an unruly white supremacist with a background of terrorizing women of color was pulled over because he committed a crime, and then became crazy and unruly while resisting arrest, and a black officer put his knee in the guy’s neck to settle him down, wouldn’t the cop be praised widely by The Woke? Would the media even make a peep?

    Well, Floyd did five years in prison for invading a woman’s home with a band of thugs and sticking a gun in her gut. Isn’t that a #Metoo violation? I mean, it’s too late for him to die in a fire, but can’t we at least cancel him? Because women?

    • Replies: @photondancer
    @JimDandy

    Women are nothing on the Woke scale of things. All that blather about them being feminist is so much window dressing. I am beginning to suspect that much of the craziness of female woke conduct is due to their (suppressed) realisation of this,

    , @Known Fact
    @JimDandy

    Rush is wearing me out with his current "All life is sacred" theme. Sorry, in my eyes violent criminals have forfeited that consideration.

    At least George took a bad cop off the streets, something that Minny's entire "progressive" power structure was unwilling to do

  15. @JimDandy
    It's actually one of the most maddeningly uninformed go-to reactions of people who should know better. Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon--aim at center mass and kill the person. Shooting someone in the knee is not something that cops are allowed to do intentionally. And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @dr kill, @anon, @Sam Malone, @Pat Boyle

    Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon–aim at center mass and kill the person.

    Totally wrong. Most gun shot victims who die do so from blood loss and shock. Unfortunately (for police officers or civilians who are defending themselves), that usually takes a while.

    Shooters are trained to aim for center mass, because it offers the most optimal combination of accuracy/hittability and neutralizing/stopping the threat in its track. The surest and the fastest way is actually disabling the central nervous system (CNS), but brains and spinal cords make too small a target (and brains are also encased in pretty hard crania) esp. when the said targets are moving.

    The goal of every legally justified shooting is to stop the aggressor – it is most certainly not to kill explicitly.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Twinkie

    Try again.

    , @martin_2
    @Twinkie

    That is what I was thinking. In the UK the police are said to shoot to stop.

    , @Cato
    @Twinkie

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    Replies: @anon

  16. From the article:

    Members of Biden’s staff have donated to groups attempting to release rebels on bail.

    “Rebels”??

    And here I didn’t know there were any Confederate soldiers still alive!

    • Replies: @anon
    @PhysicistDave

    “Rebels”??

    Probably $tar War$ LARPing. Bad Orange Man is also a Vader, didn't you know?

    , @Ben tillman
    @PhysicistDave

    Rebels are we.
    Born to be free.
    Just like the fish in the sea.

  17. @JimDandy
    It's actually one of the most maddeningly uninformed go-to reactions of people who should know better. Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon--aim at center mass and kill the person. Shooting someone in the knee is not something that cops are allowed to do intentionally. And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @dr kill, @anon, @Sam Malone, @Pat Boyle

    And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    Not even irrelevant. Modern training tends toward “mag dump until the bad guy is down.”

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Thomas

    Thanks. Yeah, but try telling that to ol' Twinkie.

  18. Biden:

    an unarmed person coming at them with a knife

    “Leg shots, man. A .38 Special to the lemur is no joke. Police need new tictacs.”

    • LOL: Thomas
  19. Anonymous[265] • Disclaimer says:

    shoot the unarmed persons in the hand so they drop their arms.

    That’s still too violent for Dem women voters.

    Cops need to be trained to shoot knife attackers in the knife. Even better if the cops would start carrying knives and be trained to knife a knife attacker in the knife.

    But shoot gun attackers in the gun of course.

    And if the attacker has both a knife and gun it should be obvious what to do.

    This is the shining path to a permanent popular vote majority.

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
    @Anonymous


    Cops need to be trained to shoot knife attackers in the knife. Even better if the cops would start carrying knives and be trained to knife a knife attacker in the knife.
     
    Ha!
  20. @Dave Pinsen
    When did America get squeamish about shooting looters (center mass, obviously)? Wasn't that the typical policy after natural disasters in the past?

    I don't see how you reestablish law and order where it has collapsed without shooting some looters. When the rest surrender, zip tie their hands behind their backs, and load them up in a bus and dump them in a commandeered school gyms or something under guard until order is restored if you run out of prison space. While they're there, check them for outstanding warrants.

    In a place like Manhattan, they could dump the looters in the Javits Center.

    Replies: @anon, @Steve Sailer, @Thea

    I was told by a well-informed source that the reason two sports stadia built in Chicago in the early 1990s — for the Bulls and the White Sox — are so fortress-like is because they were planned to also serve as backup holding pens for huge numbers of looters, like military coups in Latin America shove their enemies into soccer stadiums.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    @Steve Sailer

    That works too. It's not like there are any sports happening now.

    , @silviosilver
    @Steve Sailer

    Sortakinda related to this, I watched Assault on Precinct 13 (1976) for the first time about a decade ago. I enjoyed it, but I thought "as if that would ever really happen." Hearing reports of cops pinned down in their precincts during these riots though, it now seems visionary.

    , @Peter Lund
    @Steve Sailer

    Why am I reminded of the Blues and the Greens and a certain hippodrome?

  21. anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:

    Trump… is gonna win re-election… isn’t he.

  22. @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    I was told by a well-informed source that the reason two sports stadia built in Chicago in the early 1990s -- for the Bulls and the White Sox -- are so fortress-like is because they were planned to also serve as backup holding pens for huge numbers of looters, like military coups in Latin America shove their enemies into soccer stadiums.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @silviosilver, @Peter Lund

    That works too. It’s not like there are any sports happening now.

  23. @PhysicistDave
    From the article:

    Members of Biden’s staff have donated to groups attempting to release rebels on bail.
     
    "Rebels"??

    And here I didn't know there were any Confederate soldiers still alive!

    Replies: @anon, @Ben tillman

    “Rebels”??

    Probably $tar War$ LARPing. Bad Orange Man is also a Vader, didn’t you know?

  24. @Che Blutarsky
    So, the DNC's plan is to burn down the country and then elect a dementia patient.

    And they say there's nothing new under the sun. It's the most original strategy in centuries! It's crazy enough to work! What could possibly go wrong!

    Besides civil war, genocide, World War 3, ...

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Joe Biden – a silhouette standing up to support it’s talking head. This is – a miracle.

  25. Anonymous[265] • Disclaimer says:

    Thx for 21 ft rule vids… very surprising info.

    For civilians it really means you need to be already holding your weapon and not waiting for the attacker to rush you before drawing it out of the holster.

    Of course this exposes civilians to brandishing violations.

    The Arbery case shows how tricky it can get for civilians —- what really matters is whether you’re a trigger puller or not. Most civilians will hesitate before killing.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Anonymous

    Obviously the most important thing is situational awareness, but bio-mechanically what every defensive shooter should learn and practice is lateral or pivoting movement that takes you off the line of attack. Almost every untrained or poorly trained person backs up in a straight line and trips/falls down. And even if he doesn’t fall, the attacker can outrun the defender and catch up to the latter.

    By the way, BJ Baldwin was recently involved in a shooting, and he seems to have done it right.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/bj-baldwin-justified-homicide-in-las-vegas/

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @res

  26. @Meretricious
    Biden is such a dork/feckless weenie. The quintessential middle manager

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @anon

    Biden is such a dork/feckless weenie. The quintessential middle manager.

    That’s an insult to middle managers. Joe couldn’t even be an assistant manager, because they actually have to run some things. He’s been a U.S. senator and a U.S. vice president, two jobs that don’t require any skills at all and have no measures of performance.

    • Agree: Unladen Swallow
  27. Joe’s knowledge of combat is based on cowboy movies where a man is about to light a cigar and his opponent calmly shoots the match out of his hand from 50 yards away with his Colt 45.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    @Rob McX

    I was thinking exactly the same thing, except it was specifically about the old Lone Ranger comic books and TV series. The Lone Ranger always shot the bad guys in the hand.

    Come to think of it, Joe Biden, born November 1942, would have been a kid of just the right age when the TV series started airing (in 1949) for that notion to have made a lasting impression on him.

    https://i.imgur.com/VqHxsNA.jpg

  28. @Anonymous
    Thx for 21 ft rule vids... very surprising info.

    For civilians it really means you need to be already holding your weapon and not waiting for the attacker to rush you before drawing it out of the holster.

    Of course this exposes civilians to brandishing violations.

    The Arbery case shows how tricky it can get for civilians ---- what really matters is whether you're a trigger puller or not. Most civilians will hesitate before killing.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Obviously the most important thing is situational awareness, but bio-mechanically what every defensive shooter should learn and practice is lateral or pivoting movement that takes you off the line of attack. Almost every untrained or poorly trained person backs up in a straight line and trips/falls down. And even if he doesn’t fall, the attacker can outrun the defender and catch up to the latter.

    By the way, BJ Baldwin was recently involved in a shooting, and he seems to have done it right.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/bj-baldwin-justified-homicide-in-las-vegas/

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    @Twinkie

    Twink, when I left the service in 2011 the then CQB zeitgeist was “chest-chest-head” then to continue aiming at the target to ensure the first three shots were effective. Then check your blind spots.

    Also for some reason your support-hand was supposed to be out in Timbuktu basically holding the weapon by the flash suppressor. That really triggered my autism. I always preferred my support hand on the mag-housing.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @res
    @Twinkie

    That article seemed strange and short on details. Especially after reading the comments. What leads you to say "he seems to have done it right"?

    Replies: @Twinkie

  29. Criminal lives matter. Human rights are for criminals.
    A good honest policeman/woman is expected to risk his/her life by using the minimum amount of violence to spare a criminal’s life.
    Considering that police frequently encounter such dangers, sensible people would suggest the law abiding person have the right to very efficiently and safely defend him/herself, to shoot early and efficiently. Police lives matter. Non-criminal lives matter.

    • Replies: @Kyle
    @SINCERITY.net

    “ A good honest policeman/woman is expected to risk his/her life by using the minimum amount of violence to spare a criminal’s life.”
    Yes. That’s what they get paid to do. To serve and protect. If they wanted better jobs they should have studied harder in school.

  30. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Senilo G is the gift that keeps on giving. He’s demented past the point of credible fictionality: only reality can be this weird.

    I will say that cops have the option of using “less lethal” or “(hopefully) nonlethal” crowd control/compliance devices that, perhaps sanely, are not sold to civilians because either pwoduct wiability or actual legislation. Homebrew equivalents exist but open you to even more liability if you kill or seriously injure/ cripple/blind/disfigure someone with them even if it would have been a justifiable shoot with standard firearms. Rubber bullets, wooden bullets, baton rounds, the whole plethora.

    Common birdshot from a shotgun is devastatingly lethal at point blank range but at any distance becomes a deterrent skin wounding device-unless you are dealing with someone who is insane or high on PCP who decides to charge instead of flee. Birdshot directed into the air will come down relatively harmlesly but could still put an eye out or theoretically kill someone. It can also cause property damage in excess of what you would expect.

    The GOP would if it had any sense be carefully and persistently explaining why Senilo’s advice is illegal and dangerous and why for this reason and many others, “we suspect he might be exhibiting symptoms consistent with Alzheimer’s and should be tested. Even if he is not, his judgment is so bad you don’t want to elect anyone that dumb anyway”. Yes, call him dumb. Stupid, even.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Anonymous


    Homebrew equivalents exist but open you to even more liability if you kill or seriously injure/ cripple/blind/disfigure someone with them even if it would have been a justifiable shoot with standard firearms.
     
    A renegade English cop had a blog 15 years ago that greatly discomfited his superiors. Among other things, he showed how to turn a disposable camera that you could buy in any supermarket into a stun gun.
  31. @Twinkie
    Biden is a moron.

    https://youtu.be/17SNOqb_WUk

    Note that the officers who do best are those who make a lateral movement and move off the line of attack.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Stebbing Heuer, @JMcG, @David In TN

    If the assailant’s brandishing a knife, wouldn’t the cop already have his gun drawn?

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @silviosilver

    Think about what you just wrote.

    Replies: @silviosilver

  32. @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    I was told by a well-informed source that the reason two sports stadia built in Chicago in the early 1990s -- for the Bulls and the White Sox -- are so fortress-like is because they were planned to also serve as backup holding pens for huge numbers of looters, like military coups in Latin America shove their enemies into soccer stadiums.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @silviosilver, @Peter Lund

    Sortakinda related to this, I watched Assault on Precinct 13 (1976) for the first time about a decade ago. I enjoyed it, but I thought “as if that would ever really happen.” Hearing reports of cops pinned down in their precincts during these riots though, it now seems visionary.

  33. Biden has been watching too many “Starsky and Hutch” reruns from the 70s.

  34. Trump should one-up Biden and call for an Israeli-style ‘kneecaps’ policy to deal with violent protesters.

    • Replies: @photondancer
    @silviosilver

    Very interesting article, thanks for posting

  35. vhrm says:
    @Thomas
    This is cut from the same cloth as Biden's goofy suggestion a few years ago that the solution to home defense was to keep a double-barreled shotgun and, if you heard something go bump in the night, go outside and fire two blasts off.

    Anyone who would do such a thing in any part of the Northeast Corridor Biden lives in would go to jail for reckless endangerment, if not manslaughter.

    These are the kinds of things somebody who watched too much TV years ago (probably literally Gunsmoke or similar 1950s cowboys-and-Indians shows) and never had another thought about guns would say. Or maybe they're all that's left in poor Joe's head on the topic at this stage of dementia.

    In reality, the training police receive assumes that the "danger zone" within which a knife-armed attacker will be able to close and inflict lethal injury on an officer before the officer can draw and fire is 21 feet. Knives are dangerous: they can kill if they can reach an artery (anywhere you can take your pulse) or a vital organ. And guns don't reliably kill people with one shot quickly (an aggressive attacker in a high state of excitement and blood oxygenation can survive being shot through the heart for more than a minute).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    https://youtu.be/KT0KcenH_eQ

    Replies: @vhrm, @Wizard of Oz

    I’m down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    There are more weapons in the world than guns. And US police should use them.

    I would prefer that police training and tactics evolve.

    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and “enforcers” fourth.

    One particular thing that would mean should be made is that all cops should be trained in de-escalation techniques and also not to yell and scream and try to be ultra-alpha all the time. (all that mostly unintelligible “get down! get down! show me your hands!” stuff that they’re always screaming in high stress situations)
    It works fine some 80% or 90% of the time (made-up numbers), but otoh when it DOESN’T work it escalates the situation and then makes use of force more likely. (as an extreme example see e.g. no-knock warrants and 4am raids in general)

    That yelling and screaming at mentally unwell people is especially unhelpful… which is why, unfortunately, if there’s someone not right in the head and you call 911 to help them… there’s a higher than you’d expect chance that things will escalate to violence.

    This is an interesting story mostly about tasers (partly about how they were silently nerfed several years back and now don’t work as well)
    https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/05/09/when-tasers-fail

    But a small part is about alternative methods the Burlington Vermont department adopted a few years back

    There are a couple of items on the Emergency Response Vehicle del Pozo wished the department had back in 2016. One is called a Y-bar. It’s an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man’s chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance. That way, he couldn’t have threatened the officers.

    The rig also carries a couple old-fashioned chrome-plated fire extinguishers, filled with pressurized water.

    “If you spray that at someone’s face, they cannot advance toward you,” del Pozo said. “They have to look away, or put their hand up in front of their eyes. That and a metal bar shaped like a Y can mean the difference between having to shoot someone or not.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @vhrm


    del Pozo
     
    That name rings a bell.

    If he is who I think he is, my NYPD contact hates this guy. Apparently was a political climber and was a bagman and “problem-solver” for the higher-ups at the NYPD. Got to command two precincts despite little street experience (was IAB and was sent to overseas as an intel officer to the Middle East), rose rapidly in rank, and ended up with some cushy chief job in VT.

    Hits all the sweet spots - Hispanic name, Jewish, Ivy Leaguer, etc. My NYPD guy called him “a complete f-ing tool as an actual cop.”

    Replies: @Twinkie, @vhrm

    , @Thomas
    @vhrm


    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and “enforcers” fourth.
     
    There's this perennial trope that comes up whenever police brutality is in the news that we need to train police to be some sort of omnicompetent mix of culturally-woke, problem-solving social worker and hardnosed law enforcer, as the situation may demand. I never hear a convincing explanation though for where we're going to find a pool of candidates that can fit that diverse and incongruous mix of capabilities and personal traits, and who don't have better things to do than work in a civil-service job that mixes up tedium and bureaucracy along with the possibility of getting stabbed, shot, gassed with HIV-tainted bodily fluids, and so forth. The CIA or the Navy SEAL teams may have people like that. I don't think the Ferguson, Missouri police department ever will.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox

    , @kaganovitch
    @vhrm

    One is called a Y-bar. It’s an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man’s chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance.

    Far from being a modern innovation, this is more or less identical to the European medieval catchpole or the Japanese sasumata which goes back to the Muromachi period.

    Replies: @Anon

    , @anon
    @vhrm

    I’m down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    That vid is an example of "suicide by cop". It is a very unfortunate and ugly part of the modern world, a part that most people who aren't cops don't know about.

    "Shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly" -- that reveals a lack of knowledge. That hit would be difficult to attempt even with a carbine mounting a red-dot sight, and it still might well cause death if an artery is hit. Every miss means a bullet downrange that may hit something or someone else, and every bullet a cop fires in that situation has his name and address on it, in liability terms.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    Letting mentally unstable people run around with knives screaming doesn't tend to end up well either. By the time a cop is on the scene most of the easier options are gone. Sometimes there is no easy option.

  36. @Twinkie
    @Anonymous

    Obviously the most important thing is situational awareness, but bio-mechanically what every defensive shooter should learn and practice is lateral or pivoting movement that takes you off the line of attack. Almost every untrained or poorly trained person backs up in a straight line and trips/falls down. And even if he doesn’t fall, the attacker can outrun the defender and catch up to the latter.

    By the way, BJ Baldwin was recently involved in a shooting, and he seems to have done it right.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/bj-baldwin-justified-homicide-in-las-vegas/

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @res

    Twink, when I left the service in 2011 the then CQB zeitgeist was “chest-chest-head” then to continue aiming at the target to ensure the first three shots were effective. Then check your blind spots.

    Also for some reason your support-hand was supposed to be out in Timbuktu basically holding the weapon by the flash suppressor. That really triggered my autism. I always preferred my support hand on the mag-housing.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @BenKenobi


    CQB zeitgeist was “chest-chest-head”
     
    Mozambique Drill. I think Jeff Cooper popularized that based on something his friend did supposedly in Africa.

    Also for some reason your support-hand was supposed to be out in Timbuktu basically holding the weapon by the flash suppressor.
     
    I’m assuming you are talking about a long gun. The current doctrine is that the supporting arm being almost completely horizontal is less fatigue-inducing, supposedly. My take is do what’s comfortable for you and gets hits. We are all made a little differently, bio-mechanically speaking.

    I always preferred my support hand on the mag-housing.
     
    As you likely know, that is discouraged because your hand might contact the magazine, which has a wobble (is not a stable support platform) and can cause a mag-related malfunction.
  37. @Rob McX
    Joe's knowledge of combat is based on cowboy movies where a man is about to light a cigar and his opponent calmly shoots the match out of his hand from 50 yards away with his Colt 45.

    Replies: @PiltdownMan

    I was thinking exactly the same thing, except it was specifically about the old Lone Ranger comic books and TV series. The Lone Ranger always shot the bad guys in the hand.

    Come to think of it, Joe Biden, born November 1942, would have been a kid of just the right age when the TV series started airing (in 1949) for that notion to have made a lasting impression on him.

  38. @vhrm
    @Thomas

    I'm down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    There are more weapons in the world than guns. And US police should use them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqtny9yj8u8

    I would prefer that police training and tactics evolve.

    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and "enforcers" fourth.

    One particular thing that would mean should be made is that all cops should be trained in de-escalation techniques and also not to yell and scream and try to be ultra-alpha all the time. (all that mostly unintelligible "get down! get down! show me your hands!" stuff that they're always screaming in high stress situations)
    It works fine some 80% or 90% of the time (made-up numbers), but otoh when it DOESN'T work it escalates the situation and then makes use of force more likely. (as an extreme example see e.g. no-knock warrants and 4am raids in general)

    That yelling and screaming at mentally unwell people is especially unhelpful... which is why, unfortunately, if there's someone not right in the head and you call 911 to help them... there's a higher than you'd expect chance that things will escalate to violence.

    This is an interesting story mostly about tasers (partly about how they were silently nerfed several years back and now don't work as well)
    https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/05/09/when-tasers-fail

    But a small part is about alternative methods the Burlington Vermont department adopted a few years back


    There are a couple of items on the Emergency Response Vehicle del Pozo wished the department had back in 2016. One is called a Y-bar. It's an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man's chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance. That way, he couldn't have threatened the officers.

    The rig also carries a couple old-fashioned chrome-plated fire extinguishers, filled with pressurized water.

    "If you spray that at someone's face, they cannot advance toward you," del Pozo said. "They have to look away, or put their hand up in front of their eyes. That and a metal bar shaped like a Y can mean the difference between having to shoot someone or not."
     

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @kaganovitch, @anon

    del Pozo

    That name rings a bell.

    If he is who I think he is, my NYPD contact hates this guy. Apparently was a political climber and was a bagman and “problem-solver” for the higher-ups at the NYPD. Got to command two precincts despite little street experience (was IAB and was sent to overseas as an intel officer to the Middle East), rose rapidly in rank, and ended up with some cushy chief job in VT.

    Hits all the sweet spots – Hispanic name, Jewish, Ivy Leaguer, etc. My NYPD guy called him “a complete f-ing tool as an actual cop.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Twinkie

    Ha, he did not disappoint: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/opinion/george-floyd-police-protests.html

    Replies: @vhrm

    , @vhrm
    @Twinkie

    Yeah, that's the guy. I have no idea if he was any good, but he's clearly a nerd. Meat and potatoes normal kinda cops i could see having fairly little use for someone like that.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  39. @Anonymous
    Senilo G is the gift that keeps on giving. He's demented past the point of credible fictionality: only reality can be this weird.

    I will say that cops have the option of using "less lethal" or "(hopefully) nonlethal" crowd control/compliance devices that, perhaps sanely, are not sold to civilians because either pwoduct wiability or actual legislation. Homebrew equivalents exist but open you to even more liability if you kill or seriously injure/ cripple/blind/disfigure someone with them even if it would have been a justifiable shoot with standard firearms. Rubber bullets, wooden bullets, baton rounds, the whole plethora.

    Common birdshot from a shotgun is devastatingly lethal at point blank range but at any distance becomes a deterrent skin wounding device-unless you are dealing with someone who is insane or high on PCP who decides to charge instead of flee. Birdshot directed into the air will come down relatively harmlesly but could still put an eye out or theoretically kill someone. It can also cause property damage in excess of what you would expect.

    The GOP would if it had any sense be carefully and persistently explaining why Senilo's advice is illegal and dangerous and why for this reason and many others, "we suspect he might be exhibiting symptoms consistent with Alzheimer's and should be tested. Even if he is not, his judgment is so bad you don't want to elect anyone that dumb anyway". Yes, call him dumb. Stupid, even.

    Replies: @Rob McX

    Homebrew equivalents exist but open you to even more liability if you kill or seriously injure/ cripple/blind/disfigure someone with them even if it would have been a justifiable shoot with standard firearms.

    A renegade English cop had a blog 15 years ago that greatly discomfited his superiors. Among other things, he showed how to turn a disposable camera that you could buy in any supermarket into a stun gun.

  40. @BenKenobi
    @Twinkie

    Twink, when I left the service in 2011 the then CQB zeitgeist was “chest-chest-head” then to continue aiming at the target to ensure the first three shots were effective. Then check your blind spots.

    Also for some reason your support-hand was supposed to be out in Timbuktu basically holding the weapon by the flash suppressor. That really triggered my autism. I always preferred my support hand on the mag-housing.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    CQB zeitgeist was “chest-chest-head”

    Mozambique Drill. I think Jeff Cooper popularized that based on something his friend did supposedly in Africa.

    Also for some reason your support-hand was supposed to be out in Timbuktu basically holding the weapon by the flash suppressor.

    I’m assuming you are talking about a long gun. The current doctrine is that the supporting arm being almost completely horizontal is less fatigue-inducing, supposedly. My take is do what’s comfortable for you and gets hits. We are all made a little differently, bio-mechanically speaking.

    I always preferred my support hand on the mag-housing.

    As you likely know, that is discouraged because your hand might contact the magazine, which has a wobble (is not a stable support platform) and can cause a mag-related malfunction.

    • Thanks: BenKenobi
  41. Shooting someone in the leg or knee is a great way to immobilise them when you don’t have the resources to deal with them as a prisoner, but it is not a winning strategy to deal with an active threat.

  42. @vhrm
    @Thomas

    I'm down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    There are more weapons in the world than guns. And US police should use them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqtny9yj8u8

    I would prefer that police training and tactics evolve.

    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and "enforcers" fourth.

    One particular thing that would mean should be made is that all cops should be trained in de-escalation techniques and also not to yell and scream and try to be ultra-alpha all the time. (all that mostly unintelligible "get down! get down! show me your hands!" stuff that they're always screaming in high stress situations)
    It works fine some 80% or 90% of the time (made-up numbers), but otoh when it DOESN'T work it escalates the situation and then makes use of force more likely. (as an extreme example see e.g. no-knock warrants and 4am raids in general)

    That yelling and screaming at mentally unwell people is especially unhelpful... which is why, unfortunately, if there's someone not right in the head and you call 911 to help them... there's a higher than you'd expect chance that things will escalate to violence.

    This is an interesting story mostly about tasers (partly about how they were silently nerfed several years back and now don't work as well)
    https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/05/09/when-tasers-fail

    But a small part is about alternative methods the Burlington Vermont department adopted a few years back


    There are a couple of items on the Emergency Response Vehicle del Pozo wished the department had back in 2016. One is called a Y-bar. It's an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man's chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance. That way, he couldn't have threatened the officers.

    The rig also carries a couple old-fashioned chrome-plated fire extinguishers, filled with pressurized water.

    "If you spray that at someone's face, they cannot advance toward you," del Pozo said. "They have to look away, or put their hand up in front of their eyes. That and a metal bar shaped like a Y can mean the difference between having to shoot someone or not."
     

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @kaganovitch, @anon

    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and “enforcers” fourth.

    There’s this perennial trope that comes up whenever police brutality is in the news that we need to train police to be some sort of omnicompetent mix of culturally-woke, problem-solving social worker and hardnosed law enforcer, as the situation may demand. I never hear a convincing explanation though for where we’re going to find a pool of candidates that can fit that diverse and incongruous mix of capabilities and personal traits, and who don’t have better things to do than work in a civil-service job that mixes up tedium and bureaucracy along with the possibility of getting stabbed, shot, gassed with HIV-tainted bodily fluids, and so forth. The CIA or the Navy SEAL teams may have people like that. I don’t think the Ferguson, Missouri police department ever will.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Thomas

    We can have a social worker-cum-policeman combo if we have a population that is entirely Danish or Japanese, but not with the violent minority population we have.

    I was in South Korea last year and saw a police officer escort a drunk person causing a ruckus on the street back to his home. He walked this guy back to make sure he’d be okay and didn’t fall down and hurt himself or bother another person on the way.

    But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours.

    Replies: @black sea, @SOL

    , @nebulafox
    @Thomas

    My cousin once worked as a policeman in one of the most crime filled areas in the US. Predominantly black, near universally poor. It's a job that constantly, unremittingly exposes you to the absolute worst in human nature. Carrying it out requires qualities that are incompatible with simultaneously being a good social worker.

    I agree with Twinkie: if we are talking about East Asia or countries like Switzerland or Denmark, then yeah, mixing the roles is possible (and happens-students who are late for the CSAT or severely drunk women can get police escorts in Korea) because violent crime is minimal and social trust is high. The US fulfills neither requirement.

    Same issue with the American armed forces in places like Afghanistan and Iraq being the ambassadors of Jeffersonian democracy, TBH. The contradiction between that goal and carrying out military objectives is plain as day.

  43. @Thomas
    @vhrm


    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and “enforcers” fourth.
     
    There's this perennial trope that comes up whenever police brutality is in the news that we need to train police to be some sort of omnicompetent mix of culturally-woke, problem-solving social worker and hardnosed law enforcer, as the situation may demand. I never hear a convincing explanation though for where we're going to find a pool of candidates that can fit that diverse and incongruous mix of capabilities and personal traits, and who don't have better things to do than work in a civil-service job that mixes up tedium and bureaucracy along with the possibility of getting stabbed, shot, gassed with HIV-tainted bodily fluids, and so forth. The CIA or the Navy SEAL teams may have people like that. I don't think the Ferguson, Missouri police department ever will.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox

    We can have a social worker-cum-policeman combo if we have a population that is entirely Danish or Japanese, but not with the violent minority population we have.

    I was in South Korea last year and saw a police officer escort a drunk person causing a ruckus on the street back to his home. He walked this guy back to make sure he’d be okay and didn’t fall down and hurt himself or bother another person on the way.

    But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours.

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Twinkie

    Someone I know posted on Facebook an article claiming that police in Norway haven't killed a suspect in the past ten years.

    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.

    These two statistics are unrelated.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    , @SOL
    @Twinkie

    "But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours."

    As is their ethnic diversity.

    Lots of videos of police officers kneeling for or in front of protestors today, as Joe Biden himself did for a photo.

    Replies: @Milesglorious, @Twinkie, @Rouetheday

  44. @black sea
    If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?

    Replies: @Che Blutarsky, @The Alarmist, @danand, @Muggles

    If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?

    No, Biden is so Bad-Ass, he’ll neutralise the threats himself.

  45. @Twinkie
    @Thomas

    We can have a social worker-cum-policeman combo if we have a population that is entirely Danish or Japanese, but not with the violent minority population we have.

    I was in South Korea last year and saw a police officer escort a drunk person causing a ruckus on the street back to his home. He walked this guy back to make sure he’d be okay and didn’t fall down and hurt himself or bother another person on the way.

    But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours.

    Replies: @black sea, @SOL

    Someone I know posted on Facebook an article claiming that police in Norway haven’t killed a suspect in the past ten years.

    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.

    These two statistics are unrelated.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @black sea


    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.
     
    I don’t know about that. In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back. Denmark has an annual intentional homicide rate of 1.01 per 100,000 people. Japan’s figure is 0.26 and South Korea’s is 0.60.

    Replies: @black sea, @128, @Truth

  46. @Twinkie
    @Thomas

    We can have a social worker-cum-policeman combo if we have a population that is entirely Danish or Japanese, but not with the violent minority population we have.

    I was in South Korea last year and saw a police officer escort a drunk person causing a ruckus on the street back to his home. He walked this guy back to make sure he’d be okay and didn’t fall down and hurt himself or bother another person on the way.

    But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours.

    Replies: @black sea, @SOL

    “But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours.”

    As is their ethnic diversity.

    Lots of videos of police officers kneeling for or in front of protestors today, as Joe Biden himself did for a photo.

    • Replies: @Milesglorious
    @SOL

    Everyone of them should be fired.

    , @Twinkie
    @SOL


    As is their ethnic diversity.
     
    It has little to do with ethnic diversity. There are areas that are very mono-racial in the U.S. that are extremely crime-prone... because the areas are mono-racially black. Coversely, there are ethno-racially diverse areas in the U.S. that have very low crime rates. They are almost always areas with whites and various different types of East Asians (and now increasingly South Asians).

    It's not "diversity" per se, whatever you mean by it. It's the kind of people who make up the population. Blacks are extremely crime prone, Hispanics moderately so (I think 1.25-1.5x the white rate), and East Asians are less so than whites.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    , @Rouetheday
    @SOL

    So, should we expect Don Lemon to dismiss this as a photo op like he did with Trump's visit to the church yesterday? Will CNN run a chyron at the bottom of the TV screen calling out Biden's photo op, continuously for hours, I might add, like they did with Trump?

  47. @Twinkie
    @vhrm


    del Pozo
     
    That name rings a bell.

    If he is who I think he is, my NYPD contact hates this guy. Apparently was a political climber and was a bagman and “problem-solver” for the higher-ups at the NYPD. Got to command two precincts despite little street experience (was IAB and was sent to overseas as an intel officer to the Middle East), rose rapidly in rank, and ended up with some cushy chief job in VT.

    Hits all the sweet spots - Hispanic name, Jewish, Ivy Leaguer, etc. My NYPD guy called him “a complete f-ing tool as an actual cop.”

    Replies: @Twinkie, @vhrm

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Twinkie

    LOL. Speak of the devil. Yeah... this op-ed is crap. If he'd included similar white victims of police then maybe. Feeding the race grievance BS, f him. (although i still agree about mellowing out the cops and shooting people less )

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  48. @Twinkie
    @vhrm


    del Pozo
     
    That name rings a bell.

    If he is who I think he is, my NYPD contact hates this guy. Apparently was a political climber and was a bagman and “problem-solver” for the higher-ups at the NYPD. Got to command two precincts despite little street experience (was IAB and was sent to overseas as an intel officer to the Middle East), rose rapidly in rank, and ended up with some cushy chief job in VT.

    Hits all the sweet spots - Hispanic name, Jewish, Ivy Leaguer, etc. My NYPD guy called him “a complete f-ing tool as an actual cop.”

    Replies: @Twinkie, @vhrm

    Yeah, that’s the guy. I have no idea if he was any good, but he’s clearly a nerd. Meat and potatoes normal kinda cops i could see having fairly little use for someone like that.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @vhrm


    he’s clearly a nerd
     
    It’s not that he’s a nerd - it’s that he is a dishonest political animal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_del_Pozo

    This from the self-declared advocate of government and police transparency:


    Del Pozo resigned as police chief on December 16, 2019, after disclosing that he had used an anonymous Twitter account to direct approximately eight tweets at a critic of the city leadership, for approximately an hour on July 4, before deleting the tweets and the account within the hour.[62] When asked by a reporter about the tweets later that July, del Pozo denied authorship.[63] Five months later, when Del Pozo admitted that he authored the tweets, he resigned.
     
  49. @Twinkie
    @JimDandy


    Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon–aim at center mass and kill the person.
     
    Totally wrong. Most gun shot victims who die do so from blood loss and shock. Unfortunately (for police officers or civilians who are defending themselves), that usually takes a while.

    Shooters are trained to aim for center mass, because it offers the most optimal combination of accuracy/hittability and neutralizing/stopping the threat in its track. The surest and the fastest way is actually disabling the central nervous system (CNS), but brains and spinal cords make too small a target (and brains are also encased in pretty hard crania) esp. when the said targets are moving.

    The goal of every legally justified shooting is to stop the aggressor - it is most certainly not to kill explicitly.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @martin_2, @Cato

    Try again.

  50. @Thomas
    @JimDandy


    And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.
     
    Not even irrelevant. Modern training tends toward "mag dump until the bad guy is down."

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Thanks. Yeah, but try telling that to ol’ Twinkie.

  51. @Thomas
    @vhrm


    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and “enforcers” fourth.
     
    There's this perennial trope that comes up whenever police brutality is in the news that we need to train police to be some sort of omnicompetent mix of culturally-woke, problem-solving social worker and hardnosed law enforcer, as the situation may demand. I never hear a convincing explanation though for where we're going to find a pool of candidates that can fit that diverse and incongruous mix of capabilities and personal traits, and who don't have better things to do than work in a civil-service job that mixes up tedium and bureaucracy along with the possibility of getting stabbed, shot, gassed with HIV-tainted bodily fluids, and so forth. The CIA or the Navy SEAL teams may have people like that. I don't think the Ferguson, Missouri police department ever will.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox

    My cousin once worked as a policeman in one of the most crime filled areas in the US. Predominantly black, near universally poor. It’s a job that constantly, unremittingly exposes you to the absolute worst in human nature. Carrying it out requires qualities that are incompatible with simultaneously being a good social worker.

    I agree with Twinkie: if we are talking about East Asia or countries like Switzerland or Denmark, then yeah, mixing the roles is possible (and happens-students who are late for the CSAT or severely drunk women can get police escorts in Korea) because violent crime is minimal and social trust is high. The US fulfills neither requirement.

    Same issue with the American armed forces in places like Afghanistan and Iraq being the ambassadors of Jeffersonian democracy, TBH. The contradiction between that goal and carrying out military objectives is plain as day.

  52. is the famous scene in the train in the new Joker movie realistic? I mean that somebody draws his gun and shoots when already getting beaten up? Was he just lucky that it worked?

  53. @Twinkie
    Biden is a moron.

    https://youtu.be/17SNOqb_WUk

    Note that the officers who do best are those who make a lateral movement and move off the line of attack.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Stebbing Heuer, @JMcG, @David In TN

    ‘Get off the X.’

  54. @silviosilver
    @Twinkie

    If the assailant's brandishing a knife, wouldn't the cop already have his gun drawn?

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Think about what you just wrote.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @JimDandy

    But in the video I watched (not the the one in the post I replied to) the cop was yelling "drop the knife" before he had drawn his gun.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  55. @vhrm
    @Twinkie

    Yeah, that's the guy. I have no idea if he was any good, but he's clearly a nerd. Meat and potatoes normal kinda cops i could see having fairly little use for someone like that.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    he’s clearly a nerd

    It’s not that he’s a nerd – it’s that he is a dishonest political animal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_del_Pozo

    This from the self-declared advocate of government and police transparency:

    Del Pozo resigned as police chief on December 16, 2019, after disclosing that he had used an anonymous Twitter account to direct approximately eight tweets at a critic of the city leadership, for approximately an hour on July 4, before deleting the tweets and the account within the hour.[62] When asked by a reporter about the tweets later that July, del Pozo denied authorship.[63] Five months later, when Del Pozo admitted that he authored the tweets, he resigned.

  56. @black sea
    @Twinkie

    Someone I know posted on Facebook an article claiming that police in Norway haven't killed a suspect in the past ten years.

    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.

    These two statistics are unrelated.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.

    I don’t know about that. In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back. Denmark has an annual intentional homicide rate of 1.01 per 100,000 people. Japan’s figure is 0.26 and South Korea’s is 0.60.

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Twinkie

    I went off this article. I guess we could debate the ranking, but I think the overall point stands, whether or not Norway is ranked first:

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/10-countries-most-likely-to-follow-the-law.html

    , @128
    @Twinkie

    I do not think there is a meaningful difference between 0.60 and 1, not something that you would feel on the street anyways.

    , @Truth
    @Twinkie


    In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back.
     
    You can do that in Detroit too. I tried it with a couple of Derbyshire's books.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  57. @Twinkie
    @Twinkie

    Ha, he did not disappoint: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/opinion/george-floyd-police-protests.html

    Replies: @vhrm

    LOL. Speak of the devil. Yeah… this op-ed is crap. If he’d included similar white victims of police then maybe. Feeding the race grievance BS, f him. (although i still agree about mellowing out the cops and shooting people less )

    • Agree: Ben tillman
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @vhrm


    (although i still agree about mellowing out the cops and shooting people less )
     
    The problem is that intentional homicides of cops in the US is much higher than elsewhere. In 2017, 46 were killed. In the UK, that number was 2, which included a terror attack.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2017/topic-pages/felonious_topic_page_-2017
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

    That's 23x the cops killed, when the US only has 5x the UK's population. Fact is - American cops are at a higher risk of death compared to elsewhere. As a result, they take the appropriate defensive measures. I haven't looked it up, but I expect you will find that the number of self-defense killings by civilians in the US is also higher than elsewhere in the First World. Same problem - more criminals in American society who aren't too particular about the level of bodily harm they inflict on their victims.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @vhrm

  58. @anon
    There's a name for this drill, by the way. He's still around. Maybe people should credit his empiricism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill


    Creepy Uncle Joe's been watching old TV episodes of "The Lone Ranger" on YouTube again.

    Replies: @Stebbing Heuer

    Thanks.

  59. @Twinkie
    @black sea


    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.
     
    I don’t know about that. In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back. Denmark has an annual intentional homicide rate of 1.01 per 100,000 people. Japan’s figure is 0.26 and South Korea’s is 0.60.

    Replies: @black sea, @128, @Truth

    I went off this article. I guess we could debate the ranking, but I think the overall point stands, whether or not Norway is ranked first:

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/10-countries-most-likely-to-follow-the-law.html

  60. Maybe whites would be better off with a US occupation, maybe the Chinese would think whites are exotic pets or animals, like cute pandas, and give them a nature preserve of their own.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @128


    Maybe whites would be better off with a US occupation
     
    I wholeheartedly agree. I hear the unemployment rate is going up to 25-30%.
  61. @silviosilver
    Trump should one-up Biden and call for an Israeli-style 'kneecaps' policy to deal with violent protesters.

    Replies: @photondancer

    Very interesting article, thanks for posting

  62. @Twinkie
    @black sea


    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.
     
    I don’t know about that. In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back. Denmark has an annual intentional homicide rate of 1.01 per 100,000 people. Japan’s figure is 0.26 and South Korea’s is 0.60.

    Replies: @black sea, @128, @Truth

    I do not think there is a meaningful difference between 0.60 and 1, not something that you would feel on the street anyways.

  63. @JimDandy
    @t

    So, if an unruly white supremacist with a background of terrorizing women of color was pulled over because he committed a crime, and then became crazy and unruly while resisting arrest, and a black officer put his knee in the guy's neck to settle him down, wouldn't the cop be praised widely by The Woke? Would the media even make a peep?

    Well, Floyd did five years in prison for invading a woman's home with a band of thugs and sticking a gun in her gut. Isn't that a #Metoo violation? I mean, it's too late for him to die in a fire, but can't we at least cancel him? Because women?

    Replies: @photondancer, @Known Fact

    Women are nothing on the Woke scale of things. All that blather about them being feminist is so much window dressing. I am beginning to suspect that much of the craziness of female woke conduct is due to their (suppressed) realisation of this,

  64. Reduce fatalities! Increase lawsuits! What could go wrong?

  65. To make this workable, Elon Musk could invent special bullets that activate a retro-rocket to slow them down in the event that the shot misses. Otherwise the bullet could hit something hard, break, and deliver a fragment to someone else’s chest.

    As a bonus, the bullets could be powered by electricity and be reusable. The retro-rocket could, say, land the bullet safely on the deck of a nearby aircraft carrier.

    • LOL: Lowe
  66. This stuff is being mainstreamed from the political nuthouse of New York. Back in 2006, then-state senator David Paterson — who is blind — proposed “shoot ’em in the leg” legislation under which cops would be charged with murder if they shot center-of-mass and killed an armed suspect. Paterson subsequently became Lieutenant Governor, and when Eliot Spitzer resigned after getting caught patronizing prostitutes, Paterson became Governor and a lot of cops freaked out wondering if he was going to implement this legislation.

    He never did — it was merely appeasement for the blacks and browns in the Bronx — but he had some people worried.

    Elimination of cash bail, however, WAS implemented by Cuomo at the beginning of this year, up to and including manslaughter.

  67. @JimDandy
    It's actually one of the most maddeningly uninformed go-to reactions of people who should know better. Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon--aim at center mass and kill the person. Shooting someone in the knee is not something that cops are allowed to do intentionally. And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @dr kill, @anon, @Sam Malone, @Pat Boyle

    But I saw The Cisco Kid shoot a gun from a bad guy’s hand in Blazing Saddles.

  68. @SINCERITY.net
    Criminal lives matter. Human rights are for criminals.
    A good honest policeman/woman is expected to risk his/her life by using the minimum amount of violence to spare a criminal’s life.
    Considering that police frequently encounter such dangers, sensible people would suggest the law abiding person have the right to very efficiently and safely defend him/herself, to shoot early and efficiently. Police lives matter. Non-criminal lives matter.

    Replies: @Kyle

    “ A good honest policeman/woman is expected to risk his/her life by using the minimum amount of violence to spare a criminal’s life.”
    Yes. That’s what they get paid to do. To serve and protect. If they wanted better jobs they should have studied harder in school.

  69. A minor point. Darren Wilson put two bullets in Michael Brown’s arm and a third in his deltoid. Had no effect. He had to shoot him in the head.

  70. Sleepy Creepy Joe soon converted his mouth diaper to a chin diaper during his speech because he got lightheaded from hypoxia. Hypoxia is a serious medical condition that, over time, causes organ failure, including but not limited to brain damage.

    And, thus, also proving neither he nor anyone else believes CoronaHoax is truly a threat to anyone.

    Diaper up!

  71. @Dave Pinsen
    When did America get squeamish about shooting looters (center mass, obviously)? Wasn't that the typical policy after natural disasters in the past?

    I don't see how you reestablish law and order where it has collapsed without shooting some looters. When the rest surrender, zip tie their hands behind their backs, and load them up in a bus and dump them in a commandeered school gyms or something under guard until order is restored if you run out of prison space. While they're there, check them for outstanding warrants.

    In a place like Manhattan, they could dump the looters in the Javits Center.

    Replies: @anon, @Steve Sailer, @Thea

    One way or another an order will be re-established. What that order looks like is the question.

    Perhaps it will look like Colombia and perhaps Venezuela or even South Africa but it won’t look much like America in the mid to late 20th century .

  72. The situation never arises. Someone that brandishes a knife gets instantly shot. Cops killed with knives are almost always taken by surprise and get their carotid artery cut by a short blade such as a carpet knife that they never even saw.

    https://hub.jhu.edu/magazine/2013/fall/guns-kill-cops-statistics/
    First, an overwhelming number of the officers—93 percent—died from gunshots. “We expected guns to be commonly used,” Swedler says, “but we thought that homicides would be perpetrated by other means as well. We were really surprised by that 93 percent.” In 10 percent of cases, officers were shot with their own guns. In 43 percent of the homicides, the victims were working alone, often responding to domestic disturbance calls. “They would arrive on the scene and they would be ambushed and they weren’t prepared,” …

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Sean


    In 10 percent of cases, officers were shot with their own guns.
     
    Back in the 1990s, someone came up with the idea of building a palm-reader of sorts into a pistol so that a police officer's handgub was keyed to his unique palmprint.

    I have always wondered why it was never adopted. I dimly recall there was a 3-4 second delay caused by the palmreader before the gun could be used, but surely that could be sharply reduced by advances in 21st century electronics. In any case, I am surprised no one seems to have tried to make the concept viable in the quarter-century since I first saw it.

    Replies: @Rob McX, @anon

  73. Some Antifah brat in Pittsburgh got arrested for inciting a riot. He from Shaler, a blue collar suburb. Both sides hate him. He isn’t viewed quite like the hero he had hoped to be.

  74. Unarmed person with gun ?

  75. @black sea
    If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?

    Replies: @Che Blutarsky, @The Alarmist, @danand, @Muggles

    “If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?”

    Best part is the interviewer:

  76. anon[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @JimDandy
    It's actually one of the most maddeningly uninformed go-to reactions of people who should know better. Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon--aim at center mass and kill the person. Shooting someone in the knee is not something that cops are allowed to do intentionally. And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @dr kill, @anon, @Sam Malone, @Pat Boyle

    I thought police fired to “stop”, not kill. It’s difficult to hit certain parts of the body in a confrontation. The torso is the biggest part and easiest to hit or aim for and still stop someone. Why not just ask them to hit the left foot big toe, if your being run at with a machete?
    I’ve heard of escalation of force, if it’s a small knife say a pocket knife, maybe they could try beating the person with a stick. Where did the batons go? How crazy is the person and do you have time for your kung fu style or just enough to shoot?

    “rebels on bail” ???

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @anon

    A cop can afford to make exactly zero fatal mistakes in his career. But the police should make public service announcements to send fair warning to the mentally-deficient: "Pull a knife, forfeit your life."

    Replies: @anon

  77. @JimDandy
    @t

    So, if an unruly white supremacist with a background of terrorizing women of color was pulled over because he committed a crime, and then became crazy and unruly while resisting arrest, and a black officer put his knee in the guy's neck to settle him down, wouldn't the cop be praised widely by The Woke? Would the media even make a peep?

    Well, Floyd did five years in prison for invading a woman's home with a band of thugs and sticking a gun in her gut. Isn't that a #Metoo violation? I mean, it's too late for him to die in a fire, but can't we at least cancel him? Because women?

    Replies: @photondancer, @Known Fact

    Rush is wearing me out with his current “All life is sacred” theme. Sorry, in my eyes violent criminals have forfeited that consideration.

    At least George took a bad cop off the streets, something that Minny’s entire “progressive” power structure was unwilling to do

  78. @vhrm
    @Thomas

    I'm down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    There are more weapons in the world than guns. And US police should use them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqtny9yj8u8

    I would prefer that police training and tactics evolve.

    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and "enforcers" fourth.

    One particular thing that would mean should be made is that all cops should be trained in de-escalation techniques and also not to yell and scream and try to be ultra-alpha all the time. (all that mostly unintelligible "get down! get down! show me your hands!" stuff that they're always screaming in high stress situations)
    It works fine some 80% or 90% of the time (made-up numbers), but otoh when it DOESN'T work it escalates the situation and then makes use of force more likely. (as an extreme example see e.g. no-knock warrants and 4am raids in general)

    That yelling and screaming at mentally unwell people is especially unhelpful... which is why, unfortunately, if there's someone not right in the head and you call 911 to help them... there's a higher than you'd expect chance that things will escalate to violence.

    This is an interesting story mostly about tasers (partly about how they were silently nerfed several years back and now don't work as well)
    https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/05/09/when-tasers-fail

    But a small part is about alternative methods the Burlington Vermont department adopted a few years back


    There are a couple of items on the Emergency Response Vehicle del Pozo wished the department had back in 2016. One is called a Y-bar. It's an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man's chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance. That way, he couldn't have threatened the officers.

    The rig also carries a couple old-fashioned chrome-plated fire extinguishers, filled with pressurized water.

    "If you spray that at someone's face, they cannot advance toward you," del Pozo said. "They have to look away, or put their hand up in front of their eyes. That and a metal bar shaped like a Y can mean the difference between having to shoot someone or not."
     

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @kaganovitch, @anon

    One is called a Y-bar. It’s an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man’s chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance.

    Far from being a modern innovation, this is more or less identical to the European medieval catchpole or the Japanese sasumata which goes back to the Muromachi period.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @kaganovitch

    Japanese cops used that Y-bar thing. It’s called a sasumata (刺又).

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/刺又

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasumata


    Today, a modern version of the sasumata is still occasionally used by the police and as a self-defense tool. These modern sasumata are often made of aluminum, without the sharpened blades and spikes found on their medieval counterparts.
     
    You see these on the news whenever cops are confronting a crowd. They are in common use.
  79. @Meretricious
    Biden is such a dork/feckless weenie. The quintessential middle manager

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @anon

    Yes. And Trump would never have hired Biden as a middle manager, or for any position (in that thar alternate timeline).

  80. @Twinkie
    @JimDandy


    Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon–aim at center mass and kill the person.
     
    Totally wrong. Most gun shot victims who die do so from blood loss and shock. Unfortunately (for police officers or civilians who are defending themselves), that usually takes a while.

    Shooters are trained to aim for center mass, because it offers the most optimal combination of accuracy/hittability and neutralizing/stopping the threat in its track. The surest and the fastest way is actually disabling the central nervous system (CNS), but brains and spinal cords make too small a target (and brains are also encased in pretty hard crania) esp. when the said targets are moving.

    The goal of every legally justified shooting is to stop the aggressor - it is most certainly not to kill explicitly.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @martin_2, @Cato

    That is what I was thinking. In the UK the police are said to shoot to stop.

  81. Anon[580] • Disclaimer says:
    @kaganovitch
    @vhrm

    One is called a Y-bar. It’s an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man’s chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance.

    Far from being a modern innovation, this is more or less identical to the European medieval catchpole or the Japanese sasumata which goes back to the Muromachi period.

    Replies: @Anon

    Japanese cops used that Y-bar thing. It’s called a sasumata (刺又).

    https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/刺又

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasumata

    Today, a modern version of the sasumata is still occasionally used by the police and as a self-defense tool. These modern sasumata are often made of aluminum, without the sharpened blades and spikes found on their medieval counterparts.

    You see these on the news whenever cops are confronting a crowd. They are in common use.

  82. @Twinkie
    Biden is a moron.

    https://youtu.be/17SNOqb_WUk

    Note that the officers who do best are those who make a lateral movement and move off the line of attack.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Stebbing Heuer, @JMcG, @David In TN

    A genuine thanks for what you contribute here. You do a good job staying out of the mud. Good luck to you and yours.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Thanks: Twinkie
  83. @t
    Vo: Look something shinny

    https://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/1267512182792753155

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Reg Cæsar

    #Black Lives F***ing Matter

    Her black life would be lucky to f*** antimatter.

  84. Members of Biden’s staff have donated to groups attempting to release rebels on bail

    Are these donations and their beneficiaries public knowledge? If any of the latter are white, this is an ideal opportunity to “swift boat” Biden.

    Nobody feels sorry for spoiled white kids.

    Unfortunately, the looter shot at Cadillac Pawn was black. Will Calvin Horton Jr be the Willie Horton of 2020?

  85. Shotgun, songified:

  86. @JimDandy
    PS

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h0-q_IJbxE

    Replies: @Truth

    Damn, and that’s a fat 40 y/o ginger. With your average brother it’s like 45 feet.

  87. @Twinkie
    @black sea


    Norway, along with Denmark, has the most law-abiding population in the world.
     
    I don’t know about that. In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back. Denmark has an annual intentional homicide rate of 1.01 per 100,000 people. Japan’s figure is 0.26 and South Korea’s is 0.60.

    Replies: @black sea, @128, @Truth

    In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back.

    You can do that in Detroit too. I tried it with a couple of Derbyshire’s books.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Truth


    You can do that in Detroit too.
     
    In Detroit, you should try with expensive sneakers.
  88. @128
    Maybe whites would be better off with a US occupation, maybe the Chinese would think whites are exotic pets or animals, like cute pandas, and give them a nature preserve of their own.

    Replies: @Truth

    Maybe whites would be better off with a US occupation

    I wholeheartedly agree. I hear the unemployment rate is going up to 25-30%.

  89. @JimDandy
    It's actually one of the most maddeningly uninformed go-to reactions of people who should know better. Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon--aim at center mass and kill the person. Shooting someone in the knee is not something that cops are allowed to do intentionally. And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @dr kill, @anon, @Sam Malone, @Pat Boyle

    If police are trained only and always to kill, no wonder they execute so many civilians every year. If killing is the default, then it becomes a reflex and is viewed as justifiable, so they very often wind up choosing to murder people in situations when the person (like Daniel Shaver) is not and cannot be any danger at all to them.

    Obviously with a lot of blacks in this country there are going to be a good number of cases when police have to kill someone to take them down, but there’s no excuse for so many of these abuses. So maybe cops shouldn’t be trained only and always to kill civilians. Maybe they shouldn’t be cops if so many of them apparently get so scared so often.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Sam Malone

    Mmm... pretty sure that in the millions of police encounters last year, police shot something like 9 unarmed black people last year. And some of them no doubt deserved it. A few bad shootings is a few too many, but it's hardly an out of control institutional crisis.

    Replies: @Sam Malone

    , @Art Deco
    @Sam Malone

    If police are trained only and always to kill, no wonder they execute so many civilians every year.

    Around 350 in a typical year, or one per metropolitan region per year. Very uncommon.

    , @JMcG
    @Sam Malone

    It’s all part of recruiting tiny girls to be cops. Everyone gets trained to the same standard.

  90. anon[111] • Disclaimer says:
    @vhrm
    @Thomas

    I'm down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    There are more weapons in the world than guns. And US police should use them.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqtny9yj8u8

    I would prefer that police training and tactics evolve.

    Imo, the biggest thing is that, in our relatively safe society, cops should be social workers / customer-service agents / ticket dispensers first, second and third and "enforcers" fourth.

    One particular thing that would mean should be made is that all cops should be trained in de-escalation techniques and also not to yell and scream and try to be ultra-alpha all the time. (all that mostly unintelligible "get down! get down! show me your hands!" stuff that they're always screaming in high stress situations)
    It works fine some 80% or 90% of the time (made-up numbers), but otoh when it DOESN'T work it escalates the situation and then makes use of force more likely. (as an extreme example see e.g. no-knock warrants and 4am raids in general)

    That yelling and screaming at mentally unwell people is especially unhelpful... which is why, unfortunately, if there's someone not right in the head and you call 911 to help them... there's a higher than you'd expect chance that things will escalate to violence.

    This is an interesting story mostly about tasers (partly about how they were silently nerfed several years back and now don't work as well)
    https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/05/09/when-tasers-fail

    But a small part is about alternative methods the Burlington Vermont department adopted a few years back


    There are a couple of items on the Emergency Response Vehicle del Pozo wished the department had back in 2016. One is called a Y-bar. It's an 8-foot-long steel pole with a semi-circle at one end, about the size of a man's chest. If the cops had one, del Pozo explained, they could have simply pinned Phil to the shower wall at a safe distance. That way, he couldn't have threatened the officers.

    The rig also carries a couple old-fashioned chrome-plated fire extinguishers, filled with pressurized water.

    "If you spray that at someone's face, they cannot advance toward you," del Pozo said. "They have to look away, or put their hand up in front of their eyes. That and a metal bar shaped like a Y can mean the difference between having to shoot someone or not."
     

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @kaganovitch, @anon

    I’m down w/ the current doctrines on use of force all that, but that last video you posted is a place where a shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly (possibly with a rifle since it would be easier ) would actually have been a more effective response.

    That vid is an example of “suicide by cop”. It is a very unfortunate and ugly part of the modern world, a part that most people who aren’t cops don’t know about.

    “Shot to the leg while the guy was still moving slowly” — that reveals a lack of knowledge. That hit would be difficult to attempt even with a carbine mounting a red-dot sight, and it still might well cause death if an artery is hit. Every miss means a bullet downrange that may hit something or someone else, and every bullet a cop fires in that situation has his name and address on it, in liability terms.

    Screaming and pointing guns at mentally unstable people pretty much just ends up this way.

    Letting mentally unstable people run around with knives screaming doesn’t tend to end up well either. By the time a cop is on the scene most of the easier options are gone. Sometimes there is no easy option.

  91. @Anonymous
    shoot the unarmed persons in the hand so they drop their arms.

    That's still too violent for Dem women voters.

    Cops need to be trained to shoot knife attackers in the knife. Even better if the cops would start carrying knives and be trained to knife a knife attacker in the knife.

    But shoot gun attackers in the gun of course.

    And if the attacker has both a knife and gun it should be obvious what to do.

    This is the shining path to a permanent popular vote majority.

    Replies: @Sam Malone

    Cops need to be trained to shoot knife attackers in the knife. Even better if the cops would start carrying knives and be trained to knife a knife attacker in the knife.

    Ha!

  92. Creepy Hand-some Joe stepped up to the podium sporting a blue mouthdiaper today, yet pulled it off BEFORE he began speaking and spewing his germs all over the assembled press corps. Obviously it would make sense to don the diaper prior to speaking. Someone musta told him thr chin diaper yesterday looked ludicrous.

    Democrats and fakestream media are trolling us with these nonsensical and conflicting actions and orders. This is an intelligence test FAILED by 80% of Americans.

    God help us.

  93. Biden has it right! That’s what to do when the protests turn to riots. Shoot them in the legs.

  94. @JimDandy
    @silviosilver

    Think about what you just wrote.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    But in the video I watched (not the the one in the post I replied to) the cop was yelling “drop the knife” before he had drawn his gun.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @silviosilver

    Oh, I see, sorry. Yeah, I don't know. I would draw my gun and then say "drop the knife" in a situation like that. Or I would just shoot the guy without a word.

  95. @SOL
    @Twinkie

    "But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours."

    As is their ethnic diversity.

    Lots of videos of police officers kneeling for or in front of protestors today, as Joe Biden himself did for a photo.

    Replies: @Milesglorious, @Twinkie, @Rouetheday

    Everyone of them should be fired.

    • Agree: V. Hickel
  96. @Twinkie
    Biden is a moron.

    https://youtu.be/17SNOqb_WUk

    Note that the officers who do best are those who make a lateral movement and move off the line of attack.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Stebbing Heuer, @JMcG, @David In TN

    “Biden is a moron.”

    The understatement of the year.

  97. @Twinkie
    @JimDandy


    Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon–aim at center mass and kill the person.
     
    Totally wrong. Most gun shot victims who die do so from blood loss and shock. Unfortunately (for police officers or civilians who are defending themselves), that usually takes a while.

    Shooters are trained to aim for center mass, because it offers the most optimal combination of accuracy/hittability and neutralizing/stopping the threat in its track. The surest and the fastest way is actually disabling the central nervous system (CNS), but brains and spinal cords make too small a target (and brains are also encased in pretty hard crania) esp. when the said targets are moving.

    The goal of every legally justified shooting is to stop the aggressor - it is most certainly not to kill explicitly.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @martin_2, @Cato

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Cato

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    Please point to a document or training vid that says this. Name the agency that teaches this. I genuinely want to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Because every cop I know or have ever known was trained "Shoot to STOP". That includes two Firearms Training Officers (FTO's) for medium to largish departments.

    In the US the survival rate for gunshots is actually pretty high, depending on the number of impacts. Sometimes violent criminal actors stop at the first shot, others that are very dedicated can take many hits. Mindset, chemicals in the bloodstream and other factors can make someone very hard to stop.

    Cato: please support your assertion with facts.

    Replies: @Cato, @Twinkie, @V. Hickel

  98. @anon
    @Dave Pinsen


    When did America get squeamish about shooting looters
     
    When they started making up a core constituency of the democratic party.

    Replies: @David In TN

    In 1968 concerning the riots after the King assassination, Chicago Mayor Richard Daley said the police should “Shoot to kill arsonists. Shoot to maim looters.”

    For those too young to remember Mayor Daley was a kingmaker in the Democratic party. He “helped” JFK carry Illinois in 1960 by “finding” the necessary votes in Chicago.

    Liberals at the time were horrified by Daley’s statement.

  99. @silviosilver
    @JimDandy

    But in the video I watched (not the the one in the post I replied to) the cop was yelling "drop the knife" before he had drawn his gun.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Oh, I see, sorry. Yeah, I don’t know. I would draw my gun and then say “drop the knife” in a situation like that. Or I would just shoot the guy without a word.

  100. @black sea
    If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?

    Replies: @Che Blutarsky, @The Alarmist, @danand, @Muggles

    >>If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?<<

    Did Biden ever tell us how he took Corn Pop down? Some cool jujitsu move? Knife thrust to the gut?

    Did anyone ever hear from Mr. Pop after the incident? Maybe Fightin' Joe isn't as squeamish as he claims.

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Muggles

    Corn Pop now gang bangs among the angels. Apparently, before he shuffled off the mortal coil, he confirmed Biden's story. Someone posted an article about it here on iSteve, I believe.

  101. @Twinkie
    @Anonymous

    Obviously the most important thing is situational awareness, but bio-mechanically what every defensive shooter should learn and practice is lateral or pivoting movement that takes you off the line of attack. Almost every untrained or poorly trained person backs up in a straight line and trips/falls down. And even if he doesn’t fall, the attacker can outrun the defender and catch up to the latter.

    By the way, BJ Baldwin was recently involved in a shooting, and he seems to have done it right.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/bj-baldwin-justified-homicide-in-las-vegas/

    Replies: @BenKenobi, @res

    That article seemed strange and short on details. Especially after reading the comments. What leads you to say “he seems to have done it right”?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @res

    Watch the interview.

    Somewhat amusingly, his girlfriend, Tori Nonaka, who first noted the two men approaching with a bad vibe, is a well-known shooting sport competitor. But she left her handgun at home, because the restaurant was about to close and she and her boyfriend were hungry. So in a hurry, she left her carry gun at home! (Here is a lesson: always carry where legal!)

    Thankfully, he didn't leave his and carried his highly modified Glock 19 with a Holosun electronic optic. Alerted by his girlfriend, he readied himself.

    One of the two men started firing at Nonaka and him, he found the right moment to draw and fire 10 shots, supposedly getting 10 hits (some reports say 11 shots fired).* The attacker missed all his shots. Then he had the presence of his mind and control to NOT fire on the other guy who ran as soon as the would-be victim presented a firearm.

    Later the guy who ran (who was the aggressor's brother) corroborated Baldwin's account and even stated that it was justified. Obviously he is not being charged for the justified shooting and killing of the aggressor.

    *If true, that is pretty incredible even with an electronic optic. Baldwin is clearly a firearms enthusiast and trained extensively.

  102. @vhrm
    @Twinkie

    LOL. Speak of the devil. Yeah... this op-ed is crap. If he'd included similar white victims of police then maybe. Feeding the race grievance BS, f him. (although i still agree about mellowing out the cops and shooting people less )

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    (although i still agree about mellowing out the cops and shooting people less )

    The problem is that intentional homicides of cops in the US is much higher than elsewhere. In 2017, 46 were killed. In the UK, that number was 2, which included a terror attack.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2017/topic-pages/felonious_topic_page_-2017
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

    That’s 23x the cops killed, when the US only has 5x the UK’s population. Fact is – American cops are at a higher risk of death compared to elsewhere. As a result, they take the appropriate defensive measures. I haven’t looked it up, but I expect you will find that the number of self-defense killings by civilians in the US is also higher than elsewhere in the First World. Same problem – more criminals in American society who aren’t too particular about the level of bodily harm they inflict on their victims.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Johann Ricke

    Lots of guns, lots of blacks.

    But there are probably methodological ways to cut down on police shooting civilians, much like as police getting shot got cut by 75% due to steps like calling in the license plate before approaching the driver.

    Replies: @Pat Boyle, @Ben tillman

    , @vhrm
    @Johann Ricke


    The problem is that intentional homicides of cops in the US is much higher than elsewhere. In 2017, 46 were killed.
     
    Well, that 46 includes also includes a couple who died in pursuit accidents (prob ~5 based on 2018 numbers) (1). But in 2017 police also shot and killed ~1000 people (2)

    I can't find statistics on UK police fatal shootings of people but it seems to be quite low in the past decade. England and Wales averages about 3 / year (3), though 2017 had 6. (seems low, but haven't seen other numbers that say much higher)

    So ... in the us police kill about 25x more than they are killed and in the UK it's ~ 3x (your data and 4)

    Too many cops are quite aggressive (obviously a generalization since it varies by department and individual)...
    and i think maybe policing methods are out of touch with current society.
    Yelling at people and telling them what to do and expecting them to comply just like that is weird today.

    Maybe there was a time when that was more generally effective though honestly i can't think when... personal honor was actually more of a thing in the past than it is now.

    Check out this video about yelling by a cop. It confirms some bad suspicions:
    a) the first part of the video is the cop showing how ridiculous of a way of interaction that is in modern society.
    b) the second part is the cop explaining that it's partly to be heard and clear but that
    it's also a show. they yell "stop resisting" and "show me your hands" so that witnesses and recording equipment can pick it up so it looks good in court if they use force. (he actually says this)

    Note there's no linking of the 2nd part to the first part. i.e. he doesn't seem to consider that it can have a negative impact on compliance and escalate the situation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7wymm1sUPI


    1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/05/08/the-number-of-u-s-police-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-increased-last-year-infographic/#d3b6cda11894

    2) https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

    3) https://www.statista.com/statistics/319246/police-fatal-shootings-england-wales/

    4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

  103. @Johann Ricke
    @vhrm


    (although i still agree about mellowing out the cops and shooting people less )
     
    The problem is that intentional homicides of cops in the US is much higher than elsewhere. In 2017, 46 were killed. In the UK, that number was 2, which included a terror attack.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2017/topic-pages/felonious_topic_page_-2017
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

    That's 23x the cops killed, when the US only has 5x the UK's population. Fact is - American cops are at a higher risk of death compared to elsewhere. As a result, they take the appropriate defensive measures. I haven't looked it up, but I expect you will find that the number of self-defense killings by civilians in the US is also higher than elsewhere in the First World. Same problem - more criminals in American society who aren't too particular about the level of bodily harm they inflict on their victims.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @vhrm

    Lots of guns, lots of blacks.

    But there are probably methodological ways to cut down on police shooting civilians, much like as police getting shot got cut by 75% due to steps like calling in the license plate before approaching the driver.

    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    @Steve Sailer

    I watch some of those police reality cop shows. I see on TV a young cop walks up to some car he pulled over for a traffic infraction and the automobile's occupants draw down and start shooting.

    I'm not brave enough for that kind of job.

    , @Ben tillman
    @Steve Sailer

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon, @Harry Baldwin, @JMcG

  104. @JimDandy
    It's actually one of the most maddeningly uninformed go-to reactions of people who should know better. Cops are trained specifically to fire their weapons at a person for only one reason: to kill them, because they are presenting a potentially lethal threat. Police are taught that if they must fire their weapon--aim at center mass and kill the person. Shooting someone in the knee is not something that cops are allowed to do intentionally. And the number of bullets they fire into a person is irrelevant.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @Thomas, @dr kill, @anon, @Sam Malone, @Pat Boyle

    We obviously need more shooting by the police not less. I’m at home partly because of the Covid-19 threat and partly because even if I were inclined to go out, I wouldn’t go to a active riot site. Who are these people who do?

    There are curfews in place. I got a phone call myself last evening from the Oakland police telling me I couldn’t go out after 8:00 PM. Presumably many of the people I see on the TV riot coverage also got some similar of notice. If they choose to ignore this order – shoot them. It should take only one to get good results.

    In the good old days the British would have some Bobby read “the Riot Act” after which they could take strong measures. In this country most of the riots used to be race riots instigated by whites. Then in the mid-twentieth century it switched. Virtually all the riots today are instigated by blacks. When riots were started by whites we had a rule – shoot looters. Now we don’t, and it’s clear the nation is not better off for this policy change.

    I propose that the rule be the cops shoot only white looters. In the interest of civic calm – give the blacks another privilege. Blacks cause most of the serious crime, and some day we will have to address that issue, but now it is less inflammatory to shoot only whites. Fortunately there are plenty of real “bad actor” whites out there too.

    If some one breaks a plate glass window on a store front – the police should just blow them away. With modern communications the message will quickly spread and the rioters will disperse. Peace, calm and clear thinking will return. A single prompt police shooting should stop all the trouble almost at once.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Pat Boyle

    If whites ever "instigated" any race riots, it was due to egregious black crime, I can assure you.

    Not the case with knigro initiated riots.

  105. anon[104] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cato
    @Twinkie

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    Replies: @anon

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    Please point to a document or training vid that says this. Name the agency that teaches this. I genuinely want to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Because every cop I know or have ever known was trained “Shoot to STOP”. That includes two Firearms Training Officers (FTO’s) for medium to largish departments.

    In the US the survival rate for gunshots is actually pretty high, depending on the number of impacts. Sometimes violent criminal actors stop at the first shot, others that are very dedicated can take many hits. Mindset, chemicals in the bloodstream and other factors can make someone very hard to stop.

    Cato: please support your assertion with facts.

    • Replies: @Cato
    @anon

    Well, maybe you know better. My information comes from conversations with exactly ONE person, a colleague who is a former SWAT team member, who insisted that no police officer is ever trained to wound by shooting in the arms or legs, but always trained to go for a kill shot. Shooting to wound is simply beyond the skill level of everyone except Joe Biden.

    Replies: @vhrm

    , @Twinkie
    @anon


    Because every cop I know or have ever known was trained “Shoot to STOP”. That includes two Firearms Training Officers (FTO’s) for medium to largish departments.
     
    That commenter is talking out of his ass. LE firearms training explicitly trains officer to shoot to stop the aggressor, as you indicated. And you can see that training in action in one of the videos above. An officer shoots the charging man with a knife and stops as soon as he falls down.

    In the US the survival rate for gunshots is actually pretty high.
     
    Because people who are shot who expire do so from blood loss and shock. Unless a vital organ or an artery was hit, that takes a long time - usually enough time to get the person to the ER.

    Handguns actually do a puny amount of tissue damage and a majority of those shot with one survives in the U.S. Long guns are far more lethal.
    , @V. Hickel
    @anon

    FLETC never used the word "kill" with us. It was always shoot to stop the threat. I specifically asked about shooting the leg of an advancing attacker on day 1 of training. The response has already been covered in these comments - far less hit probability, less likely to stop, and certainty of a lawsuit in which your good intention to save some scumbag's life is twisted into a malicious desire to permanently maim him.

  106. @anon
    @JimDandy

    I thought police fired to "stop", not kill. It's difficult to hit certain parts of the body in a confrontation. The torso is the biggest part and easiest to hit or aim for and still stop someone. Why not just ask them to hit the left foot big toe, if your being run at with a machete?
    I've heard of escalation of force, if it's a small knife say a pocket knife, maybe they could try beating the person with a stick. Where did the batons go? How crazy is the person and do you have time for your kung fu style or just enough to shoot?

    "rebels on bail" ???

    Replies: @JimDandy

    A cop can afford to make exactly zero fatal mistakes in his career. But the police should make public service announcements to send fair warning to the mentally-deficient: “Pull a knife, forfeit your life.”

    • Replies: @anon
    @JimDandy

    It doesn't say you can attack people with it, that's important to understand, just like understanding why the police can't say they shoot to kill people
    I carry a knife when I go out camping or hiking.

    "Legal Knives in California

    Bowie knives are legal.
    Large knives are legal (no restrictions in size).
    Carrying knives in the open is legal in California.
    Carrying knives concealed is legal in California for most knives.

    Illegal Knives under California Knife Laws

    Misleading knives are illegal. These include cane knives (and shobi-zues), lipstick knives, belt knives, air gauge knives, and pen knives.
    All undetectable knives are illegal. These include knives that won’t set off metal detectors.
    Ballistic knives are illegal.
    Switchblades with a blade over 2 inches long are illegal to carry (see penal code section 21510)
    Daggers and Dirks are illegal to carry concealed

    What the law is trying to get at are knives usually used by criminals to commit crimes. These are knives that don’t look like knives or don’t have a use as a tool. For example, you typically don’t do much with a dagger other than stab things.

    https://knifeup.com/california-knife-and-balisong-law/

  107. Maybe there’s a compromise. Instead of shooting in the chest or the leg, aim for the gonads.

  108. @Steve Sailer
    @Johann Ricke

    Lots of guns, lots of blacks.

    But there are probably methodological ways to cut down on police shooting civilians, much like as police getting shot got cut by 75% due to steps like calling in the license plate before approaching the driver.

    Replies: @Pat Boyle, @Ben tillman

    I watch some of those police reality cop shows. I see on TV a young cop walks up to some car he pulled over for a traffic infraction and the automobile’s occupants draw down and start shooting.

    I’m not brave enough for that kind of job.

  109. @Sam Malone
    @JimDandy

    If police are trained only and always to kill, no wonder they execute so many civilians every year. If killing is the default, then it becomes a reflex and is viewed as justifiable, so they very often wind up choosing to murder people in situations when the person (like Daniel Shaver) is not and cannot be any danger at all to them.

    Obviously with a lot of blacks in this country there are going to be a good number of cases when police have to kill someone to take them down, but there's no excuse for so many of these abuses. So maybe cops shouldn't be trained only and always to kill civilians. Maybe they shouldn't be cops if so many of them apparently get so scared so often.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @JMcG

    Mmm… pretty sure that in the millions of police encounters last year, police shot something like 9 unarmed black people last year. And some of them no doubt deserved it. A few bad shootings is a few too many, but it’s hardly an out of control institutional crisis.

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
    @JimDandy

    When police roam the streets trained only and always to use deadly force and then routinely do their collective best to cover up these killings (again see the Daniel Shaver case, where the police refused to hand over the bodycam footage until they were forced to), then yes, it's reasonable to conclude that there is an institutional malady infecting policing culture in America today. The climate is created in which an officer can wind up executing those who don't resist at all, see Daniel Shaver among many, many, many other cases.

    What almost makes it worse is that it's not a race thing, as evidenced by all the many white civilians (the ones we know of) who have been treated as terribly as any colored people. It's a problem of police culture itself, compounded by the implicit and explicit institutional backing this behavior receives.

    There's clearly something that draws certain types of people to policing, and it's not solely to help people. They could be firefighters if that were the only motivation. People who like exercising power and dominating others become police. Police departments must reevaluate their culture and curb the attitude of arrogance and routine recourse to violence and brutality meted out by so many recruits.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  110. @Muggles
    @black sea

    >>If Biden wins the election, is he going to order the Secret Service that anyone with a knife charging him or his family members be shot in the leg?<<

    Did Biden ever tell us how he took Corn Pop down? Some cool jujitsu move? Knife thrust to the gut?

    Did anyone ever hear from Mr. Pop after the incident? Maybe Fightin' Joe isn't as squeamish as he claims.

    Replies: @black sea

    Corn Pop now gang bangs among the angels. Apparently, before he shuffled off the mortal coil, he confirmed Biden’s story. Someone posted an article about it here on iSteve, I believe.

  111. anon[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @JimDandy
    @anon

    A cop can afford to make exactly zero fatal mistakes in his career. But the police should make public service announcements to send fair warning to the mentally-deficient: "Pull a knife, forfeit your life."

    Replies: @anon

    It doesn’t say you can attack people with it, that’s important to understand, just like understanding why the police can’t say they shoot to kill people
    I carry a knife when I go out camping or hiking.

    “Legal Knives in California

    Bowie knives are legal.
    Large knives are legal (no restrictions in size).
    Carrying knives in the open is legal in California.
    Carrying knives concealed is legal in California for most knives.

    Illegal Knives under California Knife Laws

    Misleading knives are illegal. These include cane knives (and shobi-zues), lipstick knives, belt knives, air gauge knives, and pen knives.
    All undetectable knives are illegal. These include knives that won’t set off metal detectors.
    Ballistic knives are illegal.
    Switchblades with a blade over 2 inches long are illegal to carry (see penal code section 21510)
    Daggers and Dirks are illegal to carry concealed

    What the law is trying to get at are knives usually used by criminals to commit crimes. These are knives that don’t look like knives or don’t have a use as a tool. For example, you typically don’t do much with a dagger other than stab things.

    https://knifeup.com/california-knife-and-balisong-law/

  112. @SOL
    @Twinkie

    "But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours."

    As is their ethnic diversity.

    Lots of videos of police officers kneeling for or in front of protestors today, as Joe Biden himself did for a photo.

    Replies: @Milesglorious, @Twinkie, @Rouetheday

    As is their ethnic diversity.

    It has little to do with ethnic diversity. There are areas that are very mono-racial in the U.S. that are extremely crime-prone… because the areas are mono-racially black. Coversely, there are ethno-racially diverse areas in the U.S. that have very low crime rates. They are almost always areas with whites and various different types of East Asians (and now increasingly South Asians).

    It’s not “diversity” per se, whatever you mean by it. It’s the kind of people who make up the population. Blacks are extremely crime prone, Hispanics moderately so (I think 1.25-1.5x the white rate), and East Asians are less so than whites.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @Twinkie


    It has little to do with ethnic diversity.
     
    Diversity is a code word for black. A place that is 100% diverse is 100% black.
  113. Cato says:
    @anon
    @Cato

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    Please point to a document or training vid that says this. Name the agency that teaches this. I genuinely want to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Because every cop I know or have ever known was trained "Shoot to STOP". That includes two Firearms Training Officers (FTO's) for medium to largish departments.

    In the US the survival rate for gunshots is actually pretty high, depending on the number of impacts. Sometimes violent criminal actors stop at the first shot, others that are very dedicated can take many hits. Mindset, chemicals in the bloodstream and other factors can make someone very hard to stop.

    Cato: please support your assertion with facts.

    Replies: @Cato, @Twinkie, @V. Hickel

    Well, maybe you know better. My information comes from conversations with exactly ONE person, a colleague who is a former SWAT team member, who insisted that no police officer is ever trained to wound by shooting in the arms or legs, but always trained to go for a kill shot. Shooting to wound is simply beyond the skill level of everyone except Joe Biden.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Cato


    who insisted that no police officer is ever trained to wound by shooting in the arms or legs, but always trained to go for a kill shot. Shooting to wound is simply beyond the skill level of everyone except Joe Biden.
     
    There's a legal (and arguably "moral") and Public Relations issue that's core to modern gun use and that is that you're using the gun because it's the only way to stop the person from doing a bad activity, usually attacking you or another person, though possibly running away (if it's to attack people).

    It just so happens that the only reliable way of stopping a person quickly using a gun is by destroying their brain or very quickly dropping their blood pressure. It also happens that this also instantly kills the person, but that's just an unfortunate side effect, not the goal, because trying to kill someone is illegal.

  114. @anon
    @Cato

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    Please point to a document or training vid that says this. Name the agency that teaches this. I genuinely want to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Because every cop I know or have ever known was trained "Shoot to STOP". That includes two Firearms Training Officers (FTO's) for medium to largish departments.

    In the US the survival rate for gunshots is actually pretty high, depending on the number of impacts. Sometimes violent criminal actors stop at the first shot, others that are very dedicated can take many hits. Mindset, chemicals in the bloodstream and other factors can make someone very hard to stop.

    Cato: please support your assertion with facts.

    Replies: @Cato, @Twinkie, @V. Hickel

    Because every cop I know or have ever known was trained “Shoot to STOP”. That includes two Firearms Training Officers (FTO’s) for medium to largish departments.

    That commenter is talking out of his ass. LE firearms training explicitly trains officer to shoot to stop the aggressor, as you indicated. And you can see that training in action in one of the videos above. An officer shoots the charging man with a knife and stops as soon as he falls down.

    In the US the survival rate for gunshots is actually pretty high.

    Because people who are shot who expire do so from blood loss and shock. Unless a vital organ or an artery was hit, that takes a long time – usually enough time to get the person to the ER.

    Handguns actually do a puny amount of tissue damage and a majority of those shot with one survives in the U.S. Long guns are far more lethal.

  115. @Truth
    @Twinkie


    In Seoul, a metropolis of over 10 million people, you can leave your belongings at a coffee shop table, leave for an hour, and still find them safe and sound when you get back.
     
    You can do that in Detroit too. I tried it with a couple of Derbyshire's books.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    You can do that in Detroit too.

    In Detroit, you should try with expensive sneakers.

  116. @Sam Malone
    @JimDandy

    If police are trained only and always to kill, no wonder they execute so many civilians every year. If killing is the default, then it becomes a reflex and is viewed as justifiable, so they very often wind up choosing to murder people in situations when the person (like Daniel Shaver) is not and cannot be any danger at all to them.

    Obviously with a lot of blacks in this country there are going to be a good number of cases when police have to kill someone to take them down, but there's no excuse for so many of these abuses. So maybe cops shouldn't be trained only and always to kill civilians. Maybe they shouldn't be cops if so many of them apparently get so scared so often.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @JMcG

    If police are trained only and always to kill, no wonder they execute so many civilians every year.

    Around 350 in a typical year, or one per metropolitan region per year. Very uncommon.

  117. @JimDandy
    @Sam Malone

    Mmm... pretty sure that in the millions of police encounters last year, police shot something like 9 unarmed black people last year. And some of them no doubt deserved it. A few bad shootings is a few too many, but it's hardly an out of control institutional crisis.

    Replies: @Sam Malone

    When police roam the streets trained only and always to use deadly force and then routinely do their collective best to cover up these killings (again see the Daniel Shaver case, where the police refused to hand over the bodycam footage until they were forced to), then yes, it’s reasonable to conclude that there is an institutional malady infecting policing culture in America today. The climate is created in which an officer can wind up executing those who don’t resist at all, see Daniel Shaver among many, many, many other cases.

    What almost makes it worse is that it’s not a race thing, as evidenced by all the many white civilians (the ones we know of) who have been treated as terribly as any colored people. It’s a problem of police culture itself, compounded by the implicit and explicit institutional backing this behavior receives.

    There’s clearly something that draws certain types of people to policing, and it’s not solely to help people. They could be firefighters if that were the only motivation. People who like exercising power and dominating others become police. Police departments must reevaluate their culture and curb the attitude of arrogance and routine recourse to violence and brutality meted out by so many recruits.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Sam Malone

    In the ten million arrests last year, the cops shot 9 unarmed black people, and some of them no doubt brought it on themselves. Coverups don't add up to huge numbers. The "many, many, many" cases you reference prove nothing other than the fact that, in the ten million arrests per year there will be some problematic instances. Cops are already too hamstrung by "policy brutality" accusations to do their jobs effectively.

  118. @SOL
    @Twinkie

    "But their violent crime rate is a tiny fraction of ours."

    As is their ethnic diversity.

    Lots of videos of police officers kneeling for or in front of protestors today, as Joe Biden himself did for a photo.

    Replies: @Milesglorious, @Twinkie, @Rouetheday

    So, should we expect Don Lemon to dismiss this as a photo op like he did with Trump’s visit to the church yesterday? Will CNN run a chyron at the bottom of the TV screen calling out Biden’s photo op, continuously for hours, I might add, like they did with Trump?

  119. @anon
    @Cato

    Partially correct: Police aim for center mass because it is the biggest target and hits there are most likely to stop the perp. But police training explicitly describes this as shooting to kill.

    Please point to a document or training vid that says this. Name the agency that teaches this. I genuinely want to see what you are basing your claim on.

    Because every cop I know or have ever known was trained "Shoot to STOP". That includes two Firearms Training Officers (FTO's) for medium to largish departments.

    In the US the survival rate for gunshots is actually pretty high, depending on the number of impacts. Sometimes violent criminal actors stop at the first shot, others that are very dedicated can take many hits. Mindset, chemicals in the bloodstream and other factors can make someone very hard to stop.

    Cato: please support your assertion with facts.

    Replies: @Cato, @Twinkie, @V. Hickel

    FLETC never used the word “kill” with us. It was always shoot to stop the threat. I specifically asked about shooting the leg of an advancing attacker on day 1 of training. The response has already been covered in these comments – far less hit probability, less likely to stop, and certainty of a lawsuit in which your good intention to save some scumbag’s life is twisted into a malicious desire to permanently maim him.

  120. @PhysicistDave
    From the article:

    Members of Biden’s staff have donated to groups attempting to release rebels on bail.
     
    "Rebels"??

    And here I didn't know there were any Confederate soldiers still alive!

    Replies: @anon, @Ben tillman

    Rebels are we.
    Born to be free.
    Just like the fish in the sea.

  121. @Twinkie
    @SOL


    As is their ethnic diversity.
     
    It has little to do with ethnic diversity. There are areas that are very mono-racial in the U.S. that are extremely crime-prone... because the areas are mono-racially black. Coversely, there are ethno-racially diverse areas in the U.S. that have very low crime rates. They are almost always areas with whites and various different types of East Asians (and now increasingly South Asians).

    It's not "diversity" per se, whatever you mean by it. It's the kind of people who make up the population. Blacks are extremely crime prone, Hispanics moderately so (I think 1.25-1.5x the white rate), and East Asians are less so than whites.

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    It has little to do with ethnic diversity.

    Diversity is a code word for black. A place that is 100% diverse is 100% black.

  122. Joezheimer once shot the coke spoon from under his son’s nose while under the influence of a 12 year old girl’s hair…..

    “Dr. Jill” stopped blowing Corn Pop and treated the graze wound to Hunter’s schnozz.

    True story.

  123. @Pat Boyle
    @JimDandy

    We obviously need more shooting by the police not less. I'm at home partly because of the Covid-19 threat and partly because even if I were inclined to go out, I wouldn't go to a active riot site. Who are these people who do?

    There are curfews in place. I got a phone call myself last evening from the Oakland police telling me I couldn't go out after 8:00 PM. Presumably many of the people I see on the TV riot coverage also got some similar of notice. If they choose to ignore this order - shoot them. It should take only one to get good results.

    In the good old days the British would have some Bobby read "the Riot Act" after which they could take strong measures. In this country most of the riots used to be race riots instigated by whites. Then in the mid-twentieth century it switched. Virtually all the riots today are instigated by blacks. When riots were started by whites we had a rule - shoot looters. Now we don't, and it's clear the nation is not better off for this policy change.

    I propose that the rule be the cops shoot only white looters. In the interest of civic calm - give the blacks another privilege. Blacks cause most of the serious crime, and some day we will have to address that issue, but now it is less inflammatory to shoot only whites. Fortunately there are plenty of real "bad actor" whites out there too.

    If some one breaks a plate glass window on a store front - the police should just blow them away. With modern communications the message will quickly spread and the rioters will disperse. Peace, calm and clear thinking will return. A single prompt police shooting should stop all the trouble almost at once.

    Replies: @AceDeuce

    If whites ever “instigated” any race riots, it was due to egregious black crime, I can assure you.

    Not the case with knigro initiated riots.

  124. @Steve Sailer
    @Johann Ricke

    Lots of guns, lots of blacks.

    But there are probably methodological ways to cut down on police shooting civilians, much like as police getting shot got cut by 75% due to steps like calling in the license plate before approaching the driver.

    Replies: @Pat Boyle, @Ben tillman

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Ben tillman

    Really intelligent people often make poor police officers for a variety of reasons. Police departments have correctly figured out that average to slightly above average IQ is best suited to police work, with slightly below average but honest and conscientious people often making reasonable street cops. You want a mix of types to an extent because certain aspects or specialties of police work need more IQ, and if you promote from within you need a few really (but not astonishingly) smart people to eventually command the force.

    Brink's and other armored car services are looking for people of slightly lower IQ but who pay their bills religiously on time, and aggressively weed out smart people on the theory, with some evidence, that smart people in such a job get very bored and major losses are sometimes fueled by boredom as much as anything else. I have met Brink's drivers and have learned to sort of identify them, one common characteristic is that they refuse to tell anyone what they do for a living. They are generally dull as dishwater. Many are the kind of guy who joins the military out of high school and gets out as an E-3 after four years, but doesn't have major discipline problems-they just figure out that he's Gomer Pyle and he'll be gently but firmly dissuaded from reenlistment.

    The USAF has a few people in their security services who guard special weapons that are out and out psychopaths. The service knows it, they are in specific places and are watched carefully. They are two legged versions of the killer attack canines they also have, although unlike the canines, they get to retire out alive. It would be interesting to read an honest literary inquisition into how they find and manage these guys in the mode of Howard Morland's book on the weapons themselves.

    , @anon
    @Ben tillman

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

    https://acegif.com/wp-content/gifs/eyeroll-35.gif

    , @Harry Baldwin
    @Ben tillman

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers

    Actually, the way to cut down on killings is for blacks to stop resisting arrest. Why is black behavior never brought up as one of the problems that needs to be addressed? It's always about the police response, never about the behavior of the group that is responsible for creating the problem in the first place.

    Chris Rock gave an excellent tutorial on the subject. It should be required viewing for every kid in high school. They should have to watch it until they can recite it word for word. It would save many lives.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

    , @JMcG
    @Ben tillman

    You may have missed the last twenty years worth of posts on the watering down of police and firefighter qualification tests.

  125. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ben tillman
    @Steve Sailer

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon, @Harry Baldwin, @JMcG

    Really intelligent people often make poor police officers for a variety of reasons. Police departments have correctly figured out that average to slightly above average IQ is best suited to police work, with slightly below average but honest and conscientious people often making reasonable street cops. You want a mix of types to an extent because certain aspects or specialties of police work need more IQ, and if you promote from within you need a few really (but not astonishingly) smart people to eventually command the force.

    Brink’s and other armored car services are looking for people of slightly lower IQ but who pay their bills religiously on time, and aggressively weed out smart people on the theory, with some evidence, that smart people in such a job get very bored and major losses are sometimes fueled by boredom as much as anything else. I have met Brink’s drivers and have learned to sort of identify them, one common characteristic is that they refuse to tell anyone what they do for a living. They are generally dull as dishwater. Many are the kind of guy who joins the military out of high school and gets out as an E-3 after four years, but doesn’t have major discipline problems-they just figure out that he’s Gomer Pyle and he’ll be gently but firmly dissuaded from reenlistment.

    The USAF has a few people in their security services who guard special weapons that are out and out psychopaths. The service knows it, they are in specific places and are watched carefully. They are two legged versions of the killer attack canines they also have, although unlike the canines, they get to retire out alive. It would be interesting to read an honest literary inquisition into how they find and manage these guys in the mode of Howard Morland’s book on the weapons themselves.

    • Thanks: vhrm
  126. @Ben tillman
    @Steve Sailer

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon, @Harry Baldwin, @JMcG

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

  127. Maybe Joe Biden was watching movies while waiting out the virus, and one of the movies was Lethal Weapon (1987). In the film, Danny Glover’s character police Sgt. Murtaugh is unhappy with trigger-happy Martin Riggs, played by Mel Gibson, who routinely wastes bad guys.

    Sgt. Murtaugh always advises Riggs to shoot criminals in the leg, so he can question them later. In fact, there is one scene where some little black kids are quizzing Murtaugh “Do you shoot black people? Do you shoot black people?” and Murtaugh responds, saying “Well, when I do, I try to shoot ’em in the leg or something.”

    At Biden’s current level of cognitive decline, he might be swayed by an authoritative and caring black man, like the character played by Glover in this movie.

  128. @Ben tillman
    @Steve Sailer

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon, @Harry Baldwin, @JMcG

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers

    Actually, the way to cut down on killings is for blacks to stop resisting arrest. Why is black behavior never brought up as one of the problems that needs to be addressed? It’s always about the police response, never about the behavior of the group that is responsible for creating the problem in the first place.

    Chris Rock gave an excellent tutorial on the subject. It should be required viewing for every kid in high school. They should have to watch it until they can recite it word for word. It would save many lives.

    • LOL: Twinkie, vhrm
  129. @res
    @Twinkie

    That article seemed strange and short on details. Especially after reading the comments. What leads you to say "he seems to have done it right"?

    Replies: @Twinkie

    Watch the interview.

    Somewhat amusingly, his girlfriend, Tori Nonaka, who first noted the two men approaching with a bad vibe, is a well-known shooting sport competitor. But she left her handgun at home, because the restaurant was about to close and she and her boyfriend were hungry. So in a hurry, she left her carry gun at home! (Here is a lesson: always carry where legal!)

    Thankfully, he didn’t leave his and carried his highly modified Glock 19 with a Holosun electronic optic. Alerted by his girlfriend, he readied himself.

    One of the two men started firing at Nonaka and him, he found the right moment to draw and fire 10 shots, supposedly getting 10 hits (some reports say 11 shots fired).* The attacker missed all his shots. Then he had the presence of his mind and control to NOT fire on the other guy who ran as soon as the would-be victim presented a firearm.

    Later the guy who ran (who was the aggressor’s brother) corroborated Baldwin’s account and even stated that it was justified. Obviously he is not being charged for the justified shooting and killing of the aggressor.

    *If true, that is pretty incredible even with an electronic optic. Baldwin is clearly a firearms enthusiast and trained extensively.

    • Thanks: res
  130. @Sam Malone
    @JimDandy

    If police are trained only and always to kill, no wonder they execute so many civilians every year. If killing is the default, then it becomes a reflex and is viewed as justifiable, so they very often wind up choosing to murder people in situations when the person (like Daniel Shaver) is not and cannot be any danger at all to them.

    Obviously with a lot of blacks in this country there are going to be a good number of cases when police have to kill someone to take them down, but there's no excuse for so many of these abuses. So maybe cops shouldn't be trained only and always to kill civilians. Maybe they shouldn't be cops if so many of them apparently get so scared so often.

    Replies: @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @JMcG

    It’s all part of recruiting tiny girls to be cops. Everyone gets trained to the same standard.

  131. @Ben tillman
    @Steve Sailer

    The way to cut down on killings is to hire more-intelligent officers who can actually process the information his senses give him.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon, @Harry Baldwin, @JMcG

    You may have missed the last twenty years worth of posts on the watering down of police and firefighter qualification tests.

  132. vhrm says:
    @Johann Ricke
    @vhrm


    (although i still agree about mellowing out the cops and shooting people less )
     
    The problem is that intentional homicides of cops in the US is much higher than elsewhere. In 2017, 46 were killed. In the UK, that number was 2, which included a terror attack.

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2017/topic-pages/felonious_topic_page_-2017
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

    That's 23x the cops killed, when the US only has 5x the UK's population. Fact is - American cops are at a higher risk of death compared to elsewhere. As a result, they take the appropriate defensive measures. I haven't looked it up, but I expect you will find that the number of self-defense killings by civilians in the US is also higher than elsewhere in the First World. Same problem - more criminals in American society who aren't too particular about the level of bodily harm they inflict on their victims.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @vhrm

    The problem is that intentional homicides of cops in the US is much higher than elsewhere. In 2017, 46 were killed.

    Well, that 46 includes also includes a couple who died in pursuit accidents (prob ~5 based on 2018 numbers) (1). But in 2017 police also shot and killed ~1000 people (2)

    I can’t find statistics on UK police fatal shootings of people but it seems to be quite low in the past decade. England and Wales averages about 3 / year (3), though 2017 had 6. (seems low, but haven’t seen other numbers that say much higher)

    So … in the us police kill about 25x more than they are killed and in the UK it’s ~ 3x (your data and 4)

    Too many cops are quite aggressive (obviously a generalization since it varies by department and individual)…
    and i think maybe policing methods are out of touch with current society.
    Yelling at people and telling them what to do and expecting them to comply just like that is weird today.

    Maybe there was a time when that was more generally effective though honestly i can’t think when… personal honor was actually more of a thing in the past than it is now.

    [MORE]

    Check out this video about yelling by a cop. It confirms some bad suspicions:
    a) the first part of the video is the cop showing how ridiculous of a way of interaction that is in modern society.
    b) the second part is the cop explaining that it’s partly to be heard and clear but that
    it’s also a show. they yell “stop resisting” and “show me your hands” so that witnesses and recording equipment can pick it up so it looks good in court if they use force. (he actually says this)

    Note there’s no linking of the 2nd part to the first part. i.e. he doesn’t seem to consider that it can have a negative impact on compliance and escalate the situation.

    1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/05/08/the-number-of-u-s-police-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-increased-last-year-infographic/#d3b6cda11894

    2) https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

    3) https://www.statista.com/statistics/319246/police-fatal-shootings-england-wales/

    4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @vhrm


    But in 2017 police also shot and killed ~1000 people (2)
     
    WaPo has kindly put together a blurb on the nature of each fatal encounter.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/

    If you page through them, you'll see that the vast majority, 80% or more, are weapons-related encounters. What I'd like to see is how many weapons-related encounters there are in the US, and the rate at which the civilians are killed, vs similar encounters in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't see any statistics to that effect. The fact is, again, that cops are at least, on a per capita basis, 5x as likely to be killed in the US as in the UK.

    I'd also like to see the numbers invalided out of the force for crippling injuries as a result of intentional homicide attempts vs the numbers in Europe. The average beat cop probably takes that into account when he deals with civilians. I would not be surprised to hear that the ratios for cops in the US vs Europe are far worse than for intentional killings of cops.
  133. vhrm says:
    @Cato
    @anon

    Well, maybe you know better. My information comes from conversations with exactly ONE person, a colleague who is a former SWAT team member, who insisted that no police officer is ever trained to wound by shooting in the arms or legs, but always trained to go for a kill shot. Shooting to wound is simply beyond the skill level of everyone except Joe Biden.

    Replies: @vhrm

    who insisted that no police officer is ever trained to wound by shooting in the arms or legs, but always trained to go for a kill shot. Shooting to wound is simply beyond the skill level of everyone except Joe Biden.

    There’s a legal (and arguably “moral”) and Public Relations issue that’s core to modern gun use and that is that you’re using the gun because it’s the only way to stop the person from doing a bad activity, usually attacking you or another person, though possibly running away (if it’s to attack people).

    It just so happens that the only reliable way of stopping a person quickly using a gun is by destroying their brain or very quickly dropping their blood pressure. It also happens that this also instantly kills the person, but that’s just an unfortunate side effect, not the goal, because trying to kill someone is illegal.

    • Thanks: Cato
  134. @Sam Malone
    @JimDandy

    When police roam the streets trained only and always to use deadly force and then routinely do their collective best to cover up these killings (again see the Daniel Shaver case, where the police refused to hand over the bodycam footage until they were forced to), then yes, it's reasonable to conclude that there is an institutional malady infecting policing culture in America today. The climate is created in which an officer can wind up executing those who don't resist at all, see Daniel Shaver among many, many, many other cases.

    What almost makes it worse is that it's not a race thing, as evidenced by all the many white civilians (the ones we know of) who have been treated as terribly as any colored people. It's a problem of police culture itself, compounded by the implicit and explicit institutional backing this behavior receives.

    There's clearly something that draws certain types of people to policing, and it's not solely to help people. They could be firefighters if that were the only motivation. People who like exercising power and dominating others become police. Police departments must reevaluate their culture and curb the attitude of arrogance and routine recourse to violence and brutality meted out by so many recruits.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    In the ten million arrests last year, the cops shot 9 unarmed black people, and some of them no doubt brought it on themselves. Coverups don’t add up to huge numbers. The “many, many, many” cases you reference prove nothing other than the fact that, in the ten million arrests per year there will be some problematic instances. Cops are already too hamstrung by “policy brutality” accusations to do their jobs effectively.

  135. @vhrm
    @Johann Ricke


    The problem is that intentional homicides of cops in the US is much higher than elsewhere. In 2017, 46 were killed.
     
    Well, that 46 includes also includes a couple who died in pursuit accidents (prob ~5 based on 2018 numbers) (1). But in 2017 police also shot and killed ~1000 people (2)

    I can't find statistics on UK police fatal shootings of people but it seems to be quite low in the past decade. England and Wales averages about 3 / year (3), though 2017 had 6. (seems low, but haven't seen other numbers that say much higher)

    So ... in the us police kill about 25x more than they are killed and in the UK it's ~ 3x (your data and 4)

    Too many cops are quite aggressive (obviously a generalization since it varies by department and individual)...
    and i think maybe policing methods are out of touch with current society.
    Yelling at people and telling them what to do and expecting them to comply just like that is weird today.

    Maybe there was a time when that was more generally effective though honestly i can't think when... personal honor was actually more of a thing in the past than it is now.

    Check out this video about yelling by a cop. It confirms some bad suspicions:
    a) the first part of the video is the cop showing how ridiculous of a way of interaction that is in modern society.
    b) the second part is the cop explaining that it's partly to be heard and clear but that
    it's also a show. they yell "stop resisting" and "show me your hands" so that witnesses and recording equipment can pick it up so it looks good in court if they use force. (he actually says this)

    Note there's no linking of the 2nd part to the first part. i.e. he doesn't seem to consider that it can have a negative impact on compliance and escalate the situation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7wymm1sUPI


    1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/05/08/the-number-of-u-s-police-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-increased-last-year-infographic/#d3b6cda11894

    2) https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

    3) https://www.statista.com/statistics/319246/police-fatal-shootings-england-wales/

    4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

    Replies: @Johann Ricke

    But in 2017 police also shot and killed ~1000 people (2)

    WaPo has kindly put together a blurb on the nature of each fatal encounter.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/

    If you page through them, you’ll see that the vast majority, 80% or more, are weapons-related encounters. What I’d like to see is how many weapons-related encounters there are in the US, and the rate at which the civilians are killed, vs similar encounters in Europe. Unfortunately, I don’t see any statistics to that effect. The fact is, again, that cops are at least, on a per capita basis, 5x as likely to be killed in the US as in the UK.

    I’d also like to see the numbers invalided out of the force for crippling injuries as a result of intentional homicide attempts vs the numbers in Europe. The average beat cop probably takes that into account when he deals with civilians. I would not be surprised to hear that the ratios for cops in the US vs Europe are far worse than for intentional killings of cops.

  136. @Steve Sailer
    @Dave Pinsen

    I was told by a well-informed source that the reason two sports stadia built in Chicago in the early 1990s -- for the Bulls and the White Sox -- are so fortress-like is because they were planned to also serve as backup holding pens for huge numbers of looters, like military coups in Latin America shove their enemies into soccer stadiums.

    Replies: @Dave Pinsen, @silviosilver, @Peter Lund

    Why am I reminded of the Blues and the Greens and a certain hippodrome?

  137. Did differently-abled Biden blabber this idiocy all by himself?

    Or did his (((handlers))) make him say it?

  138. Anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    The situation never arises. Someone that brandishes a knife gets instantly shot. Cops killed with knives are almost always taken by surprise and get their carotid artery cut by a short blade such as a carpet knife that they never even saw.

    https://hub.jhu.edu/magazine/2013/fall/guns-kill-cops-statistics/
    First, an overwhelming number of the officers—93 percent—died from gunshots. "We expected guns to be commonly used," Swedler says, "but we thought that homicides would be perpetrated by other means as well. We were really surprised by that 93 percent." In 10 percent of cases, officers were shot with their own guns. In 43 percent of the homicides, the victims were working alone, often responding to domestic disturbance calls. "They would arrive on the scene and they would be ambushed and they weren't prepared," ...
     
    https://youtu.be/k2VCRdSmiKs?t=83

    Replies: @Anonymous

    In 10 percent of cases, officers were shot with their own guns.

    Back in the 1990s, someone came up with the idea of building a palm-reader of sorts into a pistol so that a police officer’s handgub was keyed to his unique palmprint.

    I have always wondered why it was never adopted. I dimly recall there was a 3-4 second delay caused by the palmreader before the gun could be used, but surely that could be sharply reduced by advances in 21st century electronics. In any case, I am surprised no one seems to have tried to make the concept viable in the quarter-century since I first saw it.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    @Anonymous

    When high tech stuff like that lets you down, it lets you down badly. It would be a nightmare if the gun's palm reader crashed. People might also find ways of hacking and disabling it with a remote device.

    , @anon
    @Anonymous

    Back in the 1990s, someone came up with the idea of building a palm-reader of sorts into a pistol so that a police officer’s handgub was keyed to his unique palmprint.

    New Jersey Institute of Technology was supposed to have all the details fixed years ago.

    Lol. Not quite yet...

    There was a real-deal adaptation for certain Smith & Wesson revolver years ago that involve magnets. Special parts inside the gun, a magnetic ring for the shooter. Without the ring the revolver would not work. No idea how reliable it was.

    That whole "personal gun" thing for cop pistols never was adopted because it never worked. Too many ways to fail. Batteries? Reader? Electronics inside? All failure points plus other mechanical parts.

    There are phones that use a fingerprint for a password. Do they work the first time, every time? Would you bet your life on them? Plus, if the finger is covered with blood do they work? If the phone is covered with mud do they work? Do they work if the finger is partly mangled?

    It's a spergy thing , not a practical thing.

  139. I dunno, maybe the tried-and-true police doctrine of “once you decide to shoot, shoot and keep shooting to kill” could be re-thought. It’s hardly inarguable.

    What is a reasonable trade-off for the number of police who should lose their lives in exchange for one innocent person not being killed by police? I’d opt for 100:1. Shooting with the intention to merely wound or disable, while obviously resulting in a Type II error on occasion, would also reduce Type I error and it’s legitimate to discuss this trade-off.

    Whether the negro counterfeiter had an underlying condition or not, the Minneapolis cop is a jack-booted thug symptom of our police state.

    • Replies: @anon
    @EdwardM

    I dunno, maybe the tried-and-true police doctrine of “once you decide to shoot, shoot and keep shooting to kill” could be re-thought. It’s hardly inarguable.

    It's not even real. You're either misinformed or making stuff up. There is no such doctrine in any US police training for street cops.

    Replies: @EdwardM

  140. @Thomas
    This is cut from the same cloth as Biden's goofy suggestion a few years ago that the solution to home defense was to keep a double-barreled shotgun and, if you heard something go bump in the night, go outside and fire two blasts off.

    Anyone who would do such a thing in any part of the Northeast Corridor Biden lives in would go to jail for reckless endangerment, if not manslaughter.

    These are the kinds of things somebody who watched too much TV years ago (probably literally Gunsmoke or similar 1950s cowboys-and-Indians shows) and never had another thought about guns would say. Or maybe they're all that's left in poor Joe's head on the topic at this stage of dementia.

    In reality, the training police receive assumes that the "danger zone" within which a knife-armed attacker will be able to close and inflict lethal injury on an officer before the officer can draw and fire is 21 feet. Knives are dangerous: they can kill if they can reach an artery (anywhere you can take your pulse) or a vital organ. And guns don't reliably kill people with one shot quickly (an aggressive attacker in a high state of excitement and blood oxygenation can survive being shot through the heart for more than a minute).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    https://youtu.be/KT0KcenH_eQ

    Replies: @vhrm, @Wizard of Oz

    Your reference to 21 feet doesn’t make total sense if you assume that a police officer is already alert and has drawn his gun. If then the person armed with a knife is running at him a shot to the heart would be necessary. Otherwise the officer should be manoeuvring to keep at least 21 feet between them while doing his best to calm the armed person down and persuade him to drop the knife. After a time when the officer should exercise patience, unless threatened by a third party, and tell him that he is going to arrest him and, if he moves suddenly without dropping the knife, the officer is going to have to shoot him dead. It is indeed a little hard to envisage the circumstances where the officer would shoot for a leg but the police should surely try if they can stand behind some protection, like a car, or some dim character is just standing waving a knife as the officer advances. Special rules will apply when the knife wielder is a deaf non English speaking Hottentot.

  141. @Anonymous
    @Sean


    In 10 percent of cases, officers were shot with their own guns.
     
    Back in the 1990s, someone came up with the idea of building a palm-reader of sorts into a pistol so that a police officer's handgub was keyed to his unique palmprint.

    I have always wondered why it was never adopted. I dimly recall there was a 3-4 second delay caused by the palmreader before the gun could be used, but surely that could be sharply reduced by advances in 21st century electronics. In any case, I am surprised no one seems to have tried to make the concept viable in the quarter-century since I first saw it.

    Replies: @Rob McX, @anon

    When high tech stuff like that lets you down, it lets you down badly. It would be a nightmare if the gun’s palm reader crashed. People might also find ways of hacking and disabling it with a remote device.

  142. Biden has a problem effecting his ability to Think and say something intelligent its called Liberal Democrat

  143. anon[414] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    @Sean


    In 10 percent of cases, officers were shot with their own guns.
     
    Back in the 1990s, someone came up with the idea of building a palm-reader of sorts into a pistol so that a police officer's handgub was keyed to his unique palmprint.

    I have always wondered why it was never adopted. I dimly recall there was a 3-4 second delay caused by the palmreader before the gun could be used, but surely that could be sharply reduced by advances in 21st century electronics. In any case, I am surprised no one seems to have tried to make the concept viable in the quarter-century since I first saw it.

    Replies: @Rob McX, @anon

    Back in the 1990s, someone came up with the idea of building a palm-reader of sorts into a pistol so that a police officer’s handgub was keyed to his unique palmprint.

    New Jersey Institute of Technology was supposed to have all the details fixed years ago.

    Lol. Not quite yet…

    There was a real-deal adaptation for certain Smith & Wesson revolver years ago that involve magnets. Special parts inside the gun, a magnetic ring for the shooter. Without the ring the revolver would not work. No idea how reliable it was.

    That whole “personal gun” thing for cop pistols never was adopted because it never worked. Too many ways to fail. Batteries? Reader? Electronics inside? All failure points plus other mechanical parts.

    There are phones that use a fingerprint for a password. Do they work the first time, every time? Would you bet your life on them? Plus, if the finger is covered with blood do they work? If the phone is covered with mud do they work? Do they work if the finger is partly mangled?

    It’s a spergy thing , not a practical thing.

  144. anon[414] • Disclaimer says:
    @EdwardM
    I dunno, maybe the tried-and-true police doctrine of "once you decide to shoot, shoot and keep shooting to kill" could be re-thought. It's hardly inarguable.

    What is a reasonable trade-off for the number of police who should lose their lives in exchange for one innocent person not being killed by police? I'd opt for 100:1. Shooting with the intention to merely wound or disable, while obviously resulting in a Type II error on occasion, would also reduce Type I error and it's legitimate to discuss this trade-off.

    Whether the negro counterfeiter had an underlying condition or not, the Minneapolis cop is a jack-booted thug symptom of our police state.

    Replies: @anon

    I dunno, maybe the tried-and-true police doctrine of “once you decide to shoot, shoot and keep shooting to kill” could be re-thought. It’s hardly inarguable.

    It’s not even real. You’re either misinformed or making stuff up. There is no such doctrine in any US police training for street cops.

    • Replies: @EdwardM
    @anon

    Many comments here (e.g., 1, 35, 36, 97) refer to this. Here are some examples:

    https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/national/here-why-police-don-shoot-wound-the-case-deadly-force/IV4ohtIm6r8FaEMj78u1bO/

    https://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/why-police-shoot-to-kill/index.html

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/police-shootings-laquan-mcdonald-mario-woods-knives-21-foot-rule/

    Yeah, these are left-wing sources, but this is one area where I depart from conservatives' reflective pro-police mentality.

  145. @anon
    @EdwardM

    I dunno, maybe the tried-and-true police doctrine of “once you decide to shoot, shoot and keep shooting to kill” could be re-thought. It’s hardly inarguable.

    It's not even real. You're either misinformed or making stuff up. There is no such doctrine in any US police training for street cops.

    Replies: @EdwardM

    Many comments here (e.g., 1, 35, 36, 97) refer to this. Here are some examples:

    https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/national/here-why-police-don-shoot-wound-the-case-deadly-force/IV4ohtIm6r8FaEMj78u1bO/

    https://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/why-police-shoot-to-kill/index.html

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/police-shootings-laquan-mcdonald-mario-woods-knives-21-foot-rule/

    Yeah, these are left-wing sources, but this is one area where I depart from conservatives’ reflective pro-police mentality.

  146. “… an unarmed person coming at you with a knife …”

    That’s the FIRST problem I have with this statement. DAFUQ is “an unarmed person with a knife?” Hmm – paradox, oxymoron, or just plain senile idiot?

    “Shoot him in the leg, instead of in the heart.” I have several problems with this phrase:
    – It has been proven time and again that anyone within seven yards of you with a bare blade constitutes an IMMEDIATE, LETHAL threat against your person – and you are at that point authorized to respond with lethal force. Don’t believe me? You can do the drill with a water pistol and a stick – practice drawing the water pistol from your hip pocket for a bit, and give a buddy the stick for his knife. When you think you’re good at drawing, set up with him twenty-one feet away from you. At his will, he runs at you – that’s your signal to draw and fire. I’ll bet folding money you get “stabbed” at least twice, some more that you don’t get him with an “immediate shutdown” shot – and let’s not forget the “dead man’s minute” – you can literally blow a man’s heart in half, and his body may not figure out he’s dead for 30-45 seconds or so. He’ll have full strength until he drops.
    – Shoot him in the leg. Right. When he’s running at you? The entire reason for firing on centre mass is to increase the probability of a hit, and reduce the number of bullets rambling around loose – that’s why cops, CCW holders, and anyone who intends to use a firearm for self-defense is taught to aim for centre mass. Greatest probability of a hit, greatest probability of knocking them back, greatest probability of knocking them down. You can dump a whole magazine trying to hit someone in the leg – but don’t worry, they’ll get to you halfway through the mag.
    – “Instead of the heart.” Yeah. Centre mass, again. And you shoot to STOP THE THREAT. Killing is often a side effect of this, but you shoot to STOP. You don’t shoot to kill (although that often happens, t’s not your intent,) you damned sure don’t shoot to wound (a frearm is a lethal force weapon. If you’ve got it out, you are subject to a lethal force attack at that time – at least, you’d damned well better be. You are responding in kind. The trick to staying alive in such encounters is to be violent ENOUGH, soon ENOUGH, so that you can go home. Whether your assailant ends up going to jail, hospital, or morgue depends on his behaviour and the fickle whim of the Fates.

    On the whole, I’d rate the entire comment as pandering weapons-grade stupidity.

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