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Bernie Sanders vs. Open Borders
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From an interview in Vox:

Ezra Klein: You said being a democratic socialist means a more international view. I think if you take global poverty that seriously, it leads you to conclusions that in the US are considered out of political bounds. Things like sharply raising the level of immigration we permit, even up to a level of open borders. About sharply increasing …

Bernie Sanders: Open borders? No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal.

Ezra Klein: Really?

Bernie Sanders: Of course. That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. …

Ezra Klein: But it would make …

Bernie Sanders: Excuse me …

Ezra Klein: It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn’t it?

Bernie Sanders: It would make everybody in America poorer —you’re doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don’t think there’s any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don’t believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.

You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you’re a white high school graduate, it’s 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?

I think from a moral responsibility we’ve got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty, but you don’t do that by making people in this country even poorer.

Ezra Klein: Then what are the responsibilities that we have? Someone who is poor by US standards is quite well off by, say, Malaysian standards, so if the calculation goes so easily to the benefit of the person in the US, how do we think about that responsibility?

We have a nation-state structure. I agree on that. But philosophically, the question is how do you weight it? How do you think about what the foreign aid budget should be? How do you think about poverty abroad?

Bernie Sanders: I do weigh it. As a United States senator in Vermont, my first obligation is to make certain kids in my state and kids all over this country have the ability to go to college, which is why I am supporting tuition-free public colleges and universities. I believe we should create millions of jobs rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure and ask the wealthiest people in this country to start paying their fair share of taxes. I believe we should raise the minimum wage to at least 15 bucks an hour so people in this county are not living in poverty. I think we end the disgrace of some 20 percent of our kids living in poverty in America. Now, how do you do that?

What you do is understand there’s been a huge redistribution of wealth in the last 30 years from the middle class to the top tenth of 1 percent. The other thing that you understand globally is a horrendous imbalance in terms of wealth in the world. As I mentioned earlier, the top 1 percent will own more than the bottom 99 percent in a year or so. That’s absurd. That takes you to programs like the IMF and so forth and so on.

But I think what we need to be doing as a global economy is making sure that people in poor countries have decent-paying jobs, have education, have health care, have nutrition for their people. That is a moral responsibility, but you don’t do that, as some would suggest, by lowering the standard of American workers, which has already gone down very significantly.

 
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  1. What’s shocking is that Ezra Klein is supposed to be a mainstream “American” journalist and policy wonk for American interests and he is explicitly saying that America shouldn’t actually be for Americans. Absolutely insane!

    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    @JerseyGuy

    He's just following the 'proposition nation' nonsense, most of the GOP candidates for President aren't any different.

    , @Whiskey
    @JerseyGuy

    Hisvattitude is bog standard received wusdom in the elite. I've see that sentiment expressed in the FT again and again. Mist beleve making their people poorer to make the third world better off is a moral duty.

    , @San Fernando Curt
    @JerseyGuy

    Insane for Americans making less than six figures a year, yes. But insane for Klein and his ilk? Hardly. Over and over, throughout Western mainstream media, we hear the same call to do away with borders, to increase our "responsibility" to the world's poor, to make them "richer". Klein and his ilk care nothing for kulak Americans. Not only are our elites filled with milk of human kindness for the world's portable vibrants (as long as it suits their interest), they're adamant about importing a low-wage workforce to benefit themselves. And they are committed to destroying "legacy" America, which they equate with Hitler, Nazis, Palestinians, Cossacks, Klansmen, Confederates, white gentile straight men, and all the other riotous devils of their neurotic, stagnant imagination. I don't think what emerges will be anything like the multicultural pastorale of their fever dreams, and it may very well curl to bite them in two. That would be wondrous. But, of course, too late for the rest of us, as well.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @24AheadDotCom
    @JerseyGuy

    No, what's shocking is how vulnerable Ezra has been throughout his entire short career and how little those who should oppose him have been able to show him wrong about anything. If you guys (speaking very generally) had helped me discredit him years ago he wouldn't be saying the things he does now and having the impact he has.

    As for Sanders, that interview is great and useful. But, he still supports mass legalization. If leading opponents of that weren't unintelligent and corrupt, they could move him to oppose mass legalization. Amnesty supporters managed to get Hillary's replacement to switch from being OK to being bad on amnesty within just a matter of days, but leading amnesty opponents are too corrupt and too unintelligent to be able to do the opposite with Hillary or even easier ones like Sanders.

    If you're smart and sane enough to realize there's a problem, then don't enable those leading amnesty opponents. Get in their faces and demand they finally do their jobs.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

  2. Now, if Bernie had just said, “The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love” lower wages, I’d be okay with that–showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn’t, however.

    • Replies: @timothy
    @e

    That's why you're not a politician. It was a shrewd way to frame it for someone running for the Democratic nomination for the presidency.

    Replies: @Realist

    , @Jesse
    @e

    "Now, if Bernie had just said, “The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love” lower wages, I’d be okay with that–showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn’t, however."

    You're not his target audience. Showing that a bunch of right wing plutocrats (as opposed to, well, their left wing counterparts) are pushing for open borders to crush their own compatriots is a great way to bring us liberals onto the side of patriotic immigration reform.

    Sometimes the fact that you're right is irrelevant. You have to adapt the message and attach it to people your audience already despises.

    , @Nathan Wartooth
    @e

    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    It has everything to do with what the interviewer was talking about.

    The elite has figured out that you can't fix South America, Africa or the Middle East. They are poor and will always be poor. So they don't do the elites much good since they don't have money to spend. But like the interviewer said, a poor person in the US or the UK is 100x better off financially than the poor in a third world country.

    So the solution is to move them to a first world country so even in the worst case scenario they get on welfare they will have more money to spend. It's just another example of privatizing profits and socializing costs.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren't clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @IBC
    @e

    At other times when discussing Citizens United (corporate personhood), Sanders has mentioned the Koch brothers and George Soros in the same breath. It'll be interesting to see if any candidate dares to even offhandedly criticize Mark Zuckerberg in this upcoming presidential race. Remember that he's not just vastly wealthy, he also controls "the Social Network," --the place where many Americans now get most of their news.

    , @Ash
    @e

    Ask him, I am 99.99999% sure he would agree with you.

  3. If Jeb runs against Sanders, Steve Sailer + Coulter + Trump’s entire fanbase becomes hard line Democrat voters and Koch bashers.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Massimo Heitor

    I would have to vote for Bernie Sanders over Jeb Bush, just as, if I had to choose between the two, I would vote for Hillary over him. It just doesn't get any worse than Jeb Bush.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Bleuteaux

    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Massimo Heitor

    "If Jeb runs against Sanders, Steve Sailer + Coulter + Trump’s entire fanbase becomes hard line Democrat voters and Koch bashers."

    Don't kid yourself. There are a lot of people who read this blog, who would no more vote for Bernie Sanders (or anyone else who didn't have a "R" next to their name), than they would join ISIS.

    But, congratulations on not being one of them! I, for one, can swallow a lot of "socialism," if secure borders are part of the package. Denmark in the 1970s may have been too leftist, but it was still a damn nice place to live, compared to most of the urban USA these days. And isn't that the main goal ie., having a nice place for our people to flourish?

    , @Bill
    @Massimo Heitor

    Is that a bad thing?

  4. Ha, ha, ha… That Ezra Klein fellow is an amusing sort of modern-day “liberal”…

    When I originally helped start the national debate over a much higher Minimum Wage with my big article a few years ago, he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage. Meanwhile, he fulsomely praised the Texas economic policies of Gov. Rick Perry, based entirely on an ultra-low-wage economy. Fortunately, other “liberals” were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/immigration-liberal-dc-pundit-denounces-minimum-wage-on-msnbc/

    Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright, but since it sounds like he’s auditioning for the role of “Favorite Liberal of the Billionaire Koch Brothers” I supposed he doesn’t have to be…

    • Agree: The Z Blog, Hail, Brutusale
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Ron Unz

    Ezra Klein is a willing mouthpiece of the oligarchy. He knows who butters his bread.

    The Deep State speaks through the Shallow State.

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-shallow-state.html

    Replies: @rod1963

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Ron Unz


    …he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage.
     
    Ah, Mr Unz, but you've dismissed, or at least ignored, your commenters' suggestions for a separate, much higher minimum wage for immigrants.

    Why should someone here on a green card evade income taxes by the simple underhanded trick of earning too little?

    True, young citizens pull off the same ruse through "internships", but at least they come from well-off families and their parents and grandparents have already paid plenty-- and not just in money. (Cf. WWI, WWII, etc.) The immigrant has no such ancestral credit to draw on.

    I can't see why any prospective immigrant (or Puerto Rican, for that matter) should be permitted to work for less than $25 or $30 an hour. Make that $40 if he has a wife and kids, i.e., exemptions.

    , @ben tillman
    @Ron Unz


    Fortunately, other “liberals” were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.
     
    Now's the time for a reminder from Peter Schaeffer:

    $3 trillion in healthcare costs in the US divided by 250 billion hours worked in the US = $12 per hour just to cover costs of health care.

    , @josh
    @Ron Unz

    "Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright"

    This has always been what irked me. Who is this dweeb? He seems like such a nothing, but he just kept getting praised and promoted. Was it because he is so er intellectually malleable?

    , @Retired
    @Ron Unz

    Great Idea, Ron
    Your Foundation should subsidize the small businesses that are closing down where the min wage is enacted. Start with the comic book store in SF and the restaurant on Union St.
    Are you lobbying for Palo Alto to enact it? Have you ever been in an establishment that pays less than minimum wage? How about the golf course where my oppressed teen-aged kid is toiling for $9/hr. Oh, double that with tips. He would be out of work if you were King.

  5. Every day, from now until November 2016, make Hillary Clinton defend massive illegal immigration.

  6. Hooray for the common sense that Sanders displays in pointing out the virtues of the nation-state for its humbler citizens. Such as, a job that pays a decent wage.

    Less enthused about his love affair with Free College For All. Scott Alexander wrote about the economic reality of this idea in Part IV of Against Tulip Subsidies.

    Senator Sanders admits that his plan would cost $70 billion per year. That’s about the size of the entire economy of Hawaii. It’s enough to give $2000 every year to every American in poverty.

    At what point do we say “Actually, no, let’s not do that, and just let people hold basic jobs even if they don’t cough up a a hundred thousand dollars from somewhere to get a degree in Medieval History”?

    I’m afraid that Sanders’ plan is a lot like the tulip subsidy idea that started off this post. It would subsidize the continuation of a useless tradition that has turned into a speculation bubble, prevent the bubble from ever popping, and disincentivize people from figuring out a way to route around the problem…

    • Replies: @Lot
    @ic1000


    Less enthused about his love affair with Free College For All.
     
    Yes, it is a stupid idea. But Sanders' education policy, presumably as a socialist, would involve a lot more spending on efficient public higher education.

    Right now, we have de facto college for all. The government will loan almost anyone $400,000, with the one exception being someone with drug offenses on their record. Not too many 18 year olds have adult criminal records however.

    The large number of scam trade schools therefore spend more than half of their budgets or more on:

    (1) profits for the scumbags who run them, an unholy alliance of sleazy salesmen, deans who accuse anyone who points to their students' job market failures as racists who don't think minorities should get educations, and the private equity financiers who provide the seed capital

    (2) advertising and direct marketing

    (3) aggressive recruiters and a huge financial aid department to help their dim-witted victims fill out the forms and keep the money rolling in.

    When the students default, they are hounded for the rest of their lives for the money, with no bankruptcy discharge allowed but plenty of wage garnishing, so usually a moderate amount does get paid back. But mostly the scumbag salesmen, third-tier liberal arts school Ph.D. deans, and Mitt Romneys get their profits from "loans" the federal government pays out but barely repaid.

    The sleazy trade schools have so much power, nobody knows how much this costs taxpayers each year, because their many whores in Congress have inserted riders into education laws that prevent the Department of Education from compiling the data. They have also bought off the Heritage Foundation, which sells public funded for-profit education as a great wonder of the free market to conservatives in congress.

    We do know that more than half of all student loans are not actively being paid back right now, and total student debt hit more than $1 trillion not too long ago and is rising very quickly, even as all other major categories of personal debt (credit card, mortgage, auto, store-card) are well below their 2000's peaks.

    If Bernie shuts this scam down, and I think he'd like to, that would probably free up an amount pretty close to the $70 billion he wants for free college.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Mike Sylwester

  7. @e
    Now, if Bernie had just said, "The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love" lower wages, I'd be okay with that--showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn't, however.

    Replies: @timothy, @Jesse, @Nathan Wartooth, @IBC, @Ash

    That’s why you’re not a politician. It was a shrewd way to frame it for someone running for the Democratic nomination for the presidency.

    • Replies: @Realist
    @timothy

    "It was a shrewd way to frame it for someone running for the Democratic nomination for the presidency."

    Shrewd....not so much. Anyone with a triple digit IQ can see through it. But I guess that doesn't matter so much on the Democrat side.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

  8. Good for Sanders. Everything he said is correct and it shows he’s thought deeply on this issue.

    The next step is for Sanders to outline some specific proposals for cutting legal immigration and ending all these “guest worker” programs (H1B, OPT, B1, agriculture workers, etc.).

    • Replies: @Mark Green
    @JohnnyWalker123

    This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of 'F-' by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for 'immigration reform' via a 'pathway to citizenship' for people who entered the US illegally.

    Replies: @David, @SFG, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Auntie Analogue

    , @ben tillman
    @JohnnyWalker123


    Good for Sanders. Everything he said is correct and it shows he’s thought deeply on this issue.
     
    Except for the Koches being on the right. Plutocracy has always been a phenomenon of the Left.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    @JohnnyWalker123

    It would be even better if Saunders voted the way he (perhaps pretends) to think. Saunders's voting record on immigration is about as abysmal as every other establishment politician's. And make no mistake about it, overall Saunders goes along with the dimocrat leadership despite occassional principled stands against the beast. THe dimocrat leadership gives him a lot of slack because they know that in a pinch he'll come through for them. As far as I'm concerned he's just another turd in that toilet bowl that calls itselfr our Congress.

  9. National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts.

    • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
    @The Z Blog

    Although that article with its name calling got me interested in Sanders.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @The Z Blog

    "The Z Blog says:

    National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts."

    An excellent example of argumentum ad hitlerum. If you don't like a guy, he must be a nazi, even if he is an old fashioned jewish socialist.

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @ben tillman, @The Z Blog

  10. Go Bern! He’s saying exactly what every nasty restrictionist has been thinking for some time. Interesting that he’s in a position to say it.

    Saw him on tv once. Direct, clear, calm speaking individual. Hmmm

  11. Bernie sounds pretty good… so far. Now, how shall we pay for free college? How shall we pay $15 an hour to people that do not make nearly that much for the business owner by their labor because they have no skills and a bad attitude? The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money…

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    @Hannah Katz

    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money…"

    The problem with ALL forms of government is that they eventually grow so large that they run out of other people's money.

    The US started with a small, not very intrusive, government. How's that working out?

    Replies: @Realist

    , @Difference Maker
    @Hannah Katz

    You don't make any money for me either. You can start by paying for your Mexican's food, healthcare and welfare. I'll send you the bill

    , @Nathan Wartooth
    @Hannah Katz

    Having tax payers pay for college is not a solution.

    Forcing public colleges to allow students to go for free but charge a percentage of their for 10-15 years would fix colleges giving out worthless degrees since they are invested in their students success and it would force colleges to lobby for better wages since it influences their bottom line.

    Replies: @Nathan Wartooth

    , @AshTon
    @Hannah Katz

    The UK has a Shortage Occupations List for in-demand occupations which visas are more easily available. Mainly engineering and healthcare. I think the U.S. H-1B system is similar.

    Bernie's "free education" should be based on similar criteria - ie you'll get free education if you are intellectually able AND you are studying something which will improve the economy and fill an employment gap. Engineering, not Feminist Film Theory.

    Then you wouldn't get the awful situation of native workers actually training their replacement immigrant workers.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  12. Gato de la Biblioteca [AKA "Icepick"] says:

    Sanders would be more believable if he hadn’t been supporting the most recent immigration “reform” bill which was essentially open borders now, open borders tomorrow, open borders forever. (Hmm, that’s sorta catchy. Wonder if anyone else has ever used it?)

    In other words, he’s just another fucking phony. Big surprise, that. No, really, this is my surprise face.

    |:

  13. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha... That Ezra Klein fellow is an amusing sort of modern-day "liberal"...

    When I originally helped start the national debate over a much higher Minimum Wage with my big article a few years ago, he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage. Meanwhile, he fulsomely praised the Texas economic policies of Gov. Rick Perry, based entirely on an ultra-low-wage economy. Fortunately, other "liberals" were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/immigration-liberal-dc-pundit-denounces-minimum-wage-on-msnbc/

    Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright, but since it sounds like he's auditioning for the role of "Favorite Liberal of the Billionaire Koch Brothers" I supposed he doesn't have to be...

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman, @josh, @Retired

    Ezra Klein is a willing mouthpiece of the oligarchy. He knows who butters his bread.

    The Deep State speaks through the Shallow State.

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-shallow-state.html

    • Replies: @rod1963
    @JohnnyWalker123

    I can't think of a major MSM type for either side that isn't a mouthpiece for the oligarchy. So it pretty much guarantees that Klein will keep the party line no matter what.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

  14. @Massimo Heitor
    If Jeb runs against Sanders, Steve Sailer + Coulter + Trump's entire fanbase becomes hard line Democrat voters and Koch bashers.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @Bill

    I would have to vote for Bernie Sanders over Jeb Bush, just as, if I had to choose between the two, I would vote for Hillary over him. It just doesn’t get any worse than Jeb Bush.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    @Harry Baldwin

    Say what? If the choice is between Commie Lib #1 and Commie Lib #2, you leave it blank.

    Replies: @ben tillman

    , @Bleuteaux
    @Harry Baldwin

    Yes. I have told people, I am voting for Hillary over Jeb. Jeb would be a certain disaster. I can't think of a single policy preference of mine which advanced during his brother's administration, and I can't think of one which would advance during Jeb's. Hillary would be a total mental breakdown from Day 1, completely incapacitated by her own self-inflicted drama. I'll take that over guaranteed open borders and even lower capital gains taxes.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Lot

  15. @JohnnyWalker123
    Good for Sanders. Everything he said is correct and it shows he's thought deeply on this issue.

    The next step is for Sanders to outline some specific proposals for cutting legal immigration and ending all these "guest worker" programs (H1B, OPT, B1, agriculture workers, etc.).

    Replies: @Mark Green, @ben tillman, @Jus' Sayin'...

    This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of ‘F-‘ by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for ‘immigration reform’ via a ‘pathway to citizenship’ for people who entered the US illegally.

    • Replies: @David
    @Mark Green

    This is right. To my knowledge, he's never said anything like the nation state stuff before. The idea would be repugnant to 2/3 of his voters. Sanders is a demagogue motivated only by an orgasmic pleasure in being perceived by others to be right, correct, good. He has zero principle except striving for praise.

    In a Vermont Public Radio interview about 2 years ago, he came out in favor of drivers' licences for illegals in VT, a program which has resulted in 40,000 being issued, although there are said to be only two or three thousand "guest farm workers" in the state, which has a total population of just 630,000.

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/128012991

    http://watchdog.org/229501/licenses-illegal-immigrants-employment-documents/

    Replies: @IBC

    , @SFG
    @Mark Green

    Yeah, I noticed that. Funny thing for him to go anti-immigration just as he's running for the Democratic nomination. Maybe he's trying to do the Jim Webb go-for-the-white-working-class thing without anyone noticing that's what he's doing?

    He is Jewish, but I doubt those guys care anymore (unless they're alt-righters).

    Replies: @bigred2000

    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Mark Green

    Not to mention that Sanders is a shill for illegal labor demanded by the Vermont dairy industry. It is like he has not heard that milking robots are set to revolutionize the dairy industry.

    Look Sanders is all over the place on immigration and that is not likely to change. Folks have to realize Bernie is a Jew and just as with many Jews he has a deeply irrational, ethnocentric and sentimental side concerning immigration. Like Paul Krugman at least from a decade ago, Sanders can say something completely rational from a national interest labor market analysis pov one day and then entirely contradict himself the next. Perhaps, Sanders gets his occasional immigration realist side from having attended the University of Chicago, but it does not dominate his world view.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Early_life_and_education


    Bernie Sanders was born on September 8, 1941, in Brooklyn, New York, the son of Eli and Dorothy (Glassberg) Sanders.[23][24] His father was a Jewish immigrant from Poland whose family was killed in the Holocaust,[23][25][26] while his mother was born to Jewish parents in New York.[27][28]
     
    Deep in his marrow Bernie Sanders is a JSSJW and he tells you that every chance he gets. I'll credit him for that. Are you listening???

    Replies: @rod1963, @anon

    , @Auntie Analogue
    @Mark Green


    "This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of ‘F-’ by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    "Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for ‘immigration reform’ via a ‘pathway to citizenship’ for people who entered the US illegally."

     

    Thank you, Mark Green, for pointing out reality.

    Bernie Sanders is no deep thinker, he's just another deep stinker.
  16. I think the difference between Sanders and Klein’s views are to a large degree generational. Sanders is 73 years old; Klein is 31. I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.

    • Replies: @Blah
    @Pincher Martin

    Sheltered helicopter parented millenials like Ezra and Yglesias have business being considered writers of such importance at their age.

    , @AnotherDad
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    Pincher, I don't think this is true, at least as stated.

    As even several mainstream columnists have pointed out, immigration is the issue where the attitudes of the elites are the furthest out of sync with popular opinion.

    While it's certainly true that *relative to less educated Americans* more educated Americans skew more Klein's way. But in absolute terms even educated Americans are overwhelmingly closer to Sanders view that Americans should be taking care of Americans, rather than Klein's we need Open Borders to bring the poor here to lift them up.

    Polls are pretty overwhelming on these immigration issues. Depending on how you phrase you can get some sort of iffy plurality that things are sorta ok as is--if they'd stop illegal immigration! More immigration is the least popular position, rejected by everyone by except landscaping company owners, building contractors, hoteliers, produce farmers and leftist intellectuals yelling "racism!".

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    ABSOLUTELY STUNNING BULL$**%!!!!

    Most folks I know Klein's age are sick of a decade plus long crappy job market in large part due to Open Borders. Outside of the SJW rent seeker set, young folks wish they had the confidence about their futures and not to mention the sex lives, their Reagan generation parents had. They are tired of being overworked, underpaid and undersexed.

    They would share Klein's opinions only if they grew up in the safe protective bubble that Ezra Klein has known all his life.

    I think Mickey Kaus has called Klein the "Juice Boxer Box Turtle".

    Look when you want to make so absolutely sure nobody challenges your world view, that you help to organize "Journolist", it says a lot about you.

    But Hey , what do I know. Perhaps Conservatism Inc, FNC and the Cuckservatives are right, 25-35 year old people today are far more concerned about defunding Planned Parenthood and protecting the sanctity of discarded aborted fetuses from medical reserach than paying for a mortgage and starting a family.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    , @Anonymous
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    It'd be more accurate to say that they would share Klein's general sentiment that alleviating global poverty or inequality is good, but they wouldn't have really thought out the practical implications of actually implementing an Open Borders policy to try to alleviate global poverty. It's more of an abstraction for them, like the fat man trolley problem.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Pincher Martin

    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    @Pincher Martin

    Several years ago I led a graduate seminar on various national issues facing the United States. I provided a balanced reading list on the subject touching on all the salient issues. There were a number of foreign students in the class but the majority were native-born whites. This was the only seminar session that became so heated that I had to intervene and calm things down. When young Americans just entering the work force are provided with balanced information on immigration issues they tend to jump to the conclusion that they are being screwed over royally by those who are currently running the country.

  17. I only wish Bernie Sanders’s voting record matched his rhetoric. I also wish he’d realize that the “right wing” is way more expansive than Koch and Co., and that his “left wing” are actually the biggest open borders fanatics around. However, due to his age and location, it’s probably the case that he’s living in the past to an extent.

    • Replies: @The Z Blog
    @countenance

    Sanders throwing around the "right wing" label is a good example of how Progressives have been captive to their own rhetoric for a long time. Long ago, "right wing" became a catch all for people with whom they disagree. It just means the undifferentiated other on the other side of the wall. Progressive have an endless list of labels for the other.

    What will be interesting to watch is how they try to adapt this generations old habit to the emerging reality. In Europe, the Right is loaded with all sorts of socialists as well as free market types. Similarly, the Left is packed with old style socialists, as well a global capitalists. Guys like Bernie are going to be in for shock when they take a close look at who is supporting them.

  18. Never mind the Great White Defendant. There is the Great White Evil Hunter.

    Every year, countless animals are killed by non-white poachers in Africa and Asia, yet this white guy is the focus of all the vitriol.

    https://www.distractify.com/stick-to-cavities-1270093558.html

  19. @JerseyGuy
    What's shocking is that Ezra Klein is supposed to be a mainstream "American" journalist and policy wonk for American interests and he is explicitly saying that America shouldn't actually be for Americans. Absolutely insane!

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Whiskey, @San Fernando Curt, @24AheadDotCom

    He’s just following the ‘proposition nation’ nonsense, most of the GOP candidates for President aren’t any different.

  20. Responding to IC1000’s quote from Scott Alexander:

    Senator Sanders admits that his plan would cost $70 billion per year. That’s about the size of the entire economy of Hawaii. It’s enough to give $2000 every year to every American in poverty.

    George McGovern promised that every American would get a one-time $1000 gift from the USG were he to be elected President. McGovern turned out to be not such an airhead when he left public office to run a bed and breakfast. His proposal seems so modest now.

    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    @jJay


    George McGovern promised that every American would get a one-time $1000 gift from the USG were he to be elected President. McGovern turned out to be not such an airhead when he left public office to run a bed and breakfast. His proposal seems so modest now.
     
    We've already been giving Israel the equivalent of $500 per head for years. So maybe $1000 per American, or poor American, probably does seem modest.
  21. As has been pointed out a zillion times before, if Ezra Klein is so anxious to redistribute wealth from Americans to Malaysians, he can start by sending his own money until he lives at the level of the average Malay.

    From what I hear of Malaysia, it is a nice enough place. I would challenge some of the accounting here.

    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    @bomag

    Malaysia operates as a welfare state for Muslims, paid for by the ethnic Chinese minority.

    Replies: @disambiguated

    , @Bill B.
    @bomag

    I find it amazing that in this supposedly globalized world politicians and pundits in the West still talk about almost any country that is not distinctly first world as if most of the population were running around in animal skins.

    Malaysia has a quite sophisticated middle-income economy with good prospects (as long as it doesn't trip over its Islamism). Its tycoons are making trophy investments in western capitals as they reap the rewards of strong links to both the Gulf and, of course, China.

    When a British businessman said in jest (in the 1980s) to a Malaysian colleague that he did not think it quite right to see Chinese driving Rolls Royce limos around Kuala Lumpur when they were part of the English patrimony. The response from his ethnic Chinese friend was: "Don't worry in the future Rolls Royces will be driven by Englishmen. The Chinese guy will be sitting in the back." (OK this also happens to be an old joke but this exchange actually happened.)

    They do things differently in Malaysia (it is very corrupt) but is it not fantastically insulting and plain ignorant to imagine that this coherent nation-state would be better off merged into some sort of global entity run by the one-percenters?

    A good idea: whenever a silly liberal argues that people from X country would be better off moving to the West ask if X will also be throwing away its border controls. The answer is never ever yes.

  22. “But I think what we need to be doing as a global economy is making sure that people in poor countries have decent-paying jobs, have education, have health care, have nutrition for their people. That is a moral responsibility, but you don’t do that, as some would suggest, by lowering the standard of American workers, which has already gone down very significantly.”

    Interestingly, this is the position Paul Samuelson took at the end of the classic paper he co-authored with Wolfgang Stolper, “Protection and Real Wages.” https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B48WcEDU3CN9U1pmZXNzTlhWWUU/view?usp=sharing

    Pareto efficiency is the idea that any policy is good that will make some people better off without making anyone else worse off. Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion, Samuelson discovered in astonishment, but then saved the day for free trade by pointing out in the last paragraph that it would be possible to tax the winners (in this case, capital — i.e., those whose income is derived from capital, including human capital) and subsidize the losers, labor.

    But if you fail to do that then you arrive at a new situation which is Pareto efficient is a sense: ironically, it now becomes impossible to subsidize labor without taxing capital, which means that capital will be left worse off than before! If one man owns the entire world it would impossible to dispossess him without violating that Pareto principle.

    Anyway, the principle of compensation has always been an integral part of the theory of free trade going all the way back to Ricardo. So Bernie is on the right track here.

    Free trade with the impoverished masses of East Asia has the same potential to impoverish American workers as does open borders. The big difference is that you can always undo the harm done by misguided trade policies, whether via tariffs (Trump) or redistributive taxation (Sanders), whereas immigration is irreversible.

    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Luke Lea


    “But I think what we need to be doing as a global economy is making sure that people in poor countries have decent-paying jobs, have education, have health care, have nutrition for their people. That is a moral responsibility, but you don’t do that, as some would suggest, by lowering the standard of American workers, which has already gone down very significantly.”
     
    Where in the constitution does it say we have a duty to provide for the welfare of the poor of other nations?? Mexico is perfectly capable of fixing its own dam problems. The best way of helping Mexico is by sending them back 10-20 million extra hands to help out.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States
     
    Has Bernie ever read this???

    Face it folks Bernie Sanders is deep in his bones a Jewish international socialist loon. His psychology does not identify with his fellow mostly goyim white Americans. His mind is is a puddle of mush sprinkled with delusions of Tikkun Olam fairy dust.
    , @Drapetomaniac
    @Luke Lea

    "Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion"

    Would you mind pointing out the free trade trade you are talking about?

    It is as real as the free market economy - it doesn't exist.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

  23. @countenance
    I only wish Bernie Sanders's voting record matched his rhetoric. I also wish he'd realize that the "right wing" is way more expansive than Koch and Co., and that his "left wing" are actually the biggest open borders fanatics around. However, due to his age and location, it's probably the case that he's living in the past to an extent.

    Replies: @The Z Blog

    Sanders throwing around the “right wing” label is a good example of how Progressives have been captive to their own rhetoric for a long time. Long ago, “right wing” became a catch all for people with whom they disagree. It just means the undifferentiated other on the other side of the wall. Progressive have an endless list of labels for the other.

    What will be interesting to watch is how they try to adapt this generations old habit to the emerging reality. In Europe, the Right is loaded with all sorts of socialists as well as free market types. Similarly, the Left is packed with old style socialists, as well a global capitalists. Guys like Bernie are going to be in for shock when they take a close look at who is supporting them.

  24. >Bernie Sanders: I do weigh it. As a United States senator in Vermont, my first obligation is to make certain kids in my state and kids all over this country have the ability to go to college, which is why I am supporting tuition-free public colleges and universities. I believe we should create millions of jobs rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure and ask the wealthiest people in this country to start paying their fair share of taxes. <

    because tradesmen go to college. effin' economic idiot or national socialist?

  25. @Pincher Martin
    I think the difference between Sanders and Klein's views are to a large degree generational. Sanders is 73 years old; Klein is 31. I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein's view than Sanders'.

    Replies: @Blah, @AnotherDad, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Anonymous, @Jus' Sayin'...

    Sheltered helicopter parented millenials like Ezra and Yglesias have business being considered writers of such importance at their age.

  26. @JerseyGuy
    What's shocking is that Ezra Klein is supposed to be a mainstream "American" journalist and policy wonk for American interests and he is explicitly saying that America shouldn't actually be for Americans. Absolutely insane!

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Whiskey, @San Fernando Curt, @24AheadDotCom

    Hisvattitude is bog standard received wusdom in the elite. I’ve see that sentiment expressed in the FT again and again. Mist beleve making their people poorer to make the third world better off is a moral duty.

  27. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha... That Ezra Klein fellow is an amusing sort of modern-day "liberal"...

    When I originally helped start the national debate over a much higher Minimum Wage with my big article a few years ago, he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage. Meanwhile, he fulsomely praised the Texas economic policies of Gov. Rick Perry, based entirely on an ultra-low-wage economy. Fortunately, other "liberals" were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/immigration-liberal-dc-pundit-denounces-minimum-wage-on-msnbc/

    Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright, but since it sounds like he's auditioning for the role of "Favorite Liberal of the Billionaire Koch Brothers" I supposed he doesn't have to be...

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman, @josh, @Retired

    …he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage.

    Ah, Mr Unz, but you’ve dismissed, or at least ignored, your commenters’ suggestions for a separate, much higher minimum wage for immigrants.

    Why should someone here on a green card evade income taxes by the simple underhanded trick of earning too little?

    True, young citizens pull off the same ruse through “internships”, but at least they come from well-off families and their parents and grandparents have already paid plenty– and not just in money. (Cf. WWI, WWII, etc.) The immigrant has no such ancestral credit to draw on.

    I can’t see why any prospective immigrant (or Puerto Rican, for that matter) should be permitted to work for less than $25 or $30 an hour. Make that $40 if he has a wife and kids, i.e., exemptions.

  28. Malaysia is a middle class country and has been for 40 years or more. When I visited a Malays house in the 70s they had a tv, a fridge, etc.

  29. Like most leftists, Bernie is a liar who may even believe his own lies. He has been in the Congress since 1990 and had not advanced one proposal to limit illegal or legal immigration. He voted for the 2013 immigration “reform” bill. All the while he states that open immigration is driving down wage rates and harming job prospects.

  30. @Mark Green
    @JohnnyWalker123

    This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of 'F-' by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for 'immigration reform' via a 'pathway to citizenship' for people who entered the US illegally.

    Replies: @David, @SFG, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Auntie Analogue

    This is right. To my knowledge, he’s never said anything like the nation state stuff before. The idea would be repugnant to 2/3 of his voters. Sanders is a demagogue motivated only by an orgasmic pleasure in being perceived by others to be right, correct, good. He has zero principle except striving for praise.

    In a Vermont Public Radio interview about 2 years ago, he came out in favor of drivers’ licences for illegals in VT, a program which has resulted in 40,000 being issued, although there are said to be only two or three thousand “guest farm workers” in the state, which has a total population of just 630,000.

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/128012991

    http://watchdog.org/229501/licenses-illegal-immigrants-employment-documents/

    • Replies: @IBC
    @David

    He actually has said similar things before. For example in an interview about three or four years ago, he pointed out that according to fundamental economic principles, it makes no sense to import more workers at a time when there's already significant national unemployment (especially of young black men), and, on top of that, to expect higher wages. I think Sanders seems sincere in his analysis of the US labor market and the best interests of the American public. However, you're right to point out that his actual immigration voting record doesn't tally with that rhetoric.

    But if he doesn't really think that, why does he risk saying it? So far he's only had to worry about getting re-elected in Vermont, and he's an incumbent senator. He doesn't need to say things like that. And yet again, his voting record contradicts those statements. What's going on?

    For what it's worth, Sanders' record does seem to be more consistent on other populist issues such as bank reform and political lobbying. But even with 100 percent consistency, how many people can he get to follow him? In Congress, the answer is, not many. But at least in talking about these issues, he's forcing a reaction from the media and other candidates. And I think that's his real goal in running for president. Now that he finally has part of the spotlight, what he says may actually be more important than how he actually votes. If we're lucky, Hillary Clinton will actually ask Sanders to explain his voting record during a debate, drawing even more attention to these issues.

  31. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Ron Unz

    Ezra Klein is a willing mouthpiece of the oligarchy. He knows who butters his bread.

    The Deep State speaks through the Shallow State.

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-shallow-state.html

    Replies: @rod1963

    I can’t think of a major MSM type for either side that isn’t a mouthpiece for the oligarchy. So it pretty much guarantees that Klein will keep the party line no matter what.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @rod1963

    Lou Dobbs maybe.

    Unfortunately, he got fired.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3E4s4JTzsY

  32. This is good news. I welcome leftwing opposition to open borders. It makes it more difficult to dismiss opposition to open borders as racism.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @Andrew Jackson


    This is good news. I welcome leftwing opposition to open borders. It makes it more difficult to dismiss opposition to open borders as racism.
     
    Racism is bad; self-defense is never bad; opposition to immigration is self-defense; therefore opposition to immigration can never be racism.

    Replies: @Vinegar

  33. @Pincher Martin
    I think the difference between Sanders and Klein's views are to a large degree generational. Sanders is 73 years old; Klein is 31. I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein's view than Sanders'.

    Replies: @Blah, @AnotherDad, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Anonymous, @Jus' Sayin'...

    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.

    Pincher, I don’t think this is true, at least as stated.

    As even several mainstream columnists have pointed out, immigration is the issue where the attitudes of the elites are the furthest out of sync with popular opinion.

    While it’s certainly true that *relative to less educated Americans* more educated Americans skew more Klein’s way. But in absolute terms even educated Americans are overwhelmingly closer to Sanders view that Americans should be taking care of Americans, rather than Klein’s we need Open Borders to bring the poor here to lift them up.

    Polls are pretty overwhelming on these immigration issues. Depending on how you phrase you can get some sort of iffy plurality that things are sorta ok as is–if they’d stop illegal immigration! More immigration is the least popular position, rejected by everyone by except landscaping company owners, building contractors, hoteliers, produce farmers and leftist intellectuals yelling “racism!”.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @AnotherDad

    I simply meant that nationalism, like religion, seem to be dying out among young Americans. They are less patriotic, less focused on their own country's well-being when considering social issues, and less committed to the idea of national self-interest when considering military force.

    It'a funny that even an old socialist like Bernie Sanders, who was born during WW2, has a commitment to nationalism that surprises Klein, probably because the younger man rarely sees it when discussing issues with his peers.

    Replies: @BubbaJoe, @Harold

  34. Bernie and the Donald think the same on idiotic (actually traitorous) free trade deals and open borders.
    But Bernie has a big contradiction in that he wants to lead a leftist multi-cultural coalition but then wants to keep millions of 3rd worlders from freely entering the United States they way they have done the last 20-30 years

    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    @Clyde

    He wants enough "coalition of the ascendant" to win elections for the left-wing party, but a remaining productive white/asian minority to pay for all of it.

  35. @Pincher Martin
    I think the difference between Sanders and Klein's views are to a large degree generational. Sanders is 73 years old; Klein is 31. I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein's view than Sanders'.

    Replies: @Blah, @AnotherDad, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Anonymous, @Jus' Sayin'...

    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.

    ABSOLUTELY STUNNING BULL$**%!!!!

    Most folks I know Klein’s age are sick of a decade plus long crappy job market in large part due to Open Borders. Outside of the SJW rent seeker set, young folks wish they had the confidence about their futures and not to mention the sex lives, their Reagan generation parents had. They are tired of being overworked, underpaid and undersexed.

    They would share Klein’s opinions only if they grew up in the safe protective bubble that Ezra Klein has known all his life.

    I think Mickey Kaus has called Klein the “Juice Boxer Box Turtle”.

    Look when you want to make so absolutely sure nobody challenges your world view, that you help to organize “Journolist”, it says a lot about you.

    But Hey , what do I know. Perhaps Conservatism Inc, FNC and the Cuckservatives are right, 25-35 year old people today are far more concerned about defunding Planned Parenthood and protecting the sanctity of discarded aborted fetuses from medical reserach than paying for a mortgage and starting a family.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @anonymous-antimarxist


    Most folks I know Klein’s age are sick of a decade plus long crappy job market in large part due to Open Borders.
     
    You need to widen your circle of friends.

    Most people - young and old - don't make the connections you make. If they did, immigration would be a much larger issue in our national politics than it is.

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @anonymous-antimarxist

    "But Hey , what do I know. Perhaps Conservatism Inc, FNC and the Cuckservatives are right, 25-35 year old people today are far more concerned about defunding Planned Parenthood and protecting the sanctity of discarded aborted fetuses from medical reserach than paying for a mortgage and starting a family."

    Its all about defunding the Import/Export bank, these days. I made the mistake of disparaging Boehner's latest policy initiative, the other night at a bar, and I got jumped on my way out. Those completely typical, 20something neocon grad students carved the words "CUCKSERVATISM FOREVER" into my forehead, oddly.

  36. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    Economics aside, why should a nation-state destroy its racial and cultural heritage via open borders?

    Suppose open borders will make US only 20% white but economically richer or everyone. Should we then be for open borders?

    I would still oppose it because US will have been utterly changed racially and culturally.

    Nepal will be richer if it allows 10 million middle class Chinese move in, but it won’t be Nepal anymore.

    A nation state’s first role is to defend its integrity of race and culture. Economics comes next.

    Some things are beyond price. Would you sell your kids for $$$? Africans would, but well, that’s why they is Africans.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Priss Factor

    Would you sell your kids for $$$? Africans would, but well, that’s why they is Africans.

    To be fair, they have extras.

    Replies: @Priss Factor

  37. @Harry Baldwin
    @Massimo Heitor

    I would have to vote for Bernie Sanders over Jeb Bush, just as, if I had to choose between the two, I would vote for Hillary over him. It just doesn't get any worse than Jeb Bush.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Bleuteaux

    Say what? If the choice is between Commie Lib #1 and Commie Lib #2, you leave it blank.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @stillCARealist


    Say what? If the choice is between Commie Lib #1 and Commie Lib #2, you leave it blank.
     
    I've voted for Perot, Buchanan, Baldwin, and -- yes -- Ralph Nader.

    Replies: @Ivy, @Truth

  38. Bernie Sanders has such a beautiful singing voice. I am surprised his music career never took off.

  39. Sanders seems to (belatedly) be coming to the realization that the sort of social democracy he favors is incompatible with open borders. But he still hasn’t quite pieced together why Dems stopped supporting workers. Here, he blames it on deep-pocketed donors:

    I think what we need in this country is to understand that given the power of corporate America, the billionaire class, the big campaign contributors, what takes place in the United States Congress today has nothing to do with the reality of middle-class working families in this country. It has to do with the power of big money.

    But that’s only part of the picture. The other part is the Dems’ shift to identity politics, such as the #BlackLivesMatter activists who recently heckled Sanders. Limiting immigration helps workers by tightening the labor supply, but it also helps by limiting identity politics. Mass immigration has imported aggrieved groups that fuel identity politics. Instead of fighting for the little guy in Indiana, today’s Democrats side with the CEO of the world’s largest corporation against little guys in Indiana.

  40. @Mark Green
    @JohnnyWalker123

    This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of 'F-' by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for 'immigration reform' via a 'pathway to citizenship' for people who entered the US illegally.

    Replies: @David, @SFG, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Auntie Analogue

    Yeah, I noticed that. Funny thing for him to go anti-immigration just as he’s running for the Democratic nomination. Maybe he’s trying to do the Jim Webb go-for-the-white-working-class thing without anyone noticing that’s what he’s doing?

    He is Jewish, but I doubt those guys care anymore (unless they’re alt-righters).

    • Replies: @bigred2000
    @SFG

    I don't think the Bern is an F on immigration. He DID vote against the 2007 amnesty Bill before voting for the 2013 version. And he was not enthusiastic about 2013. One of the last yes votes to come aboard.

    There are still some culturally populist democrats left. Does he know that he could maneuver to Hillary's right on immigration in the primaries, or is he just a blathering old man? Hard to tell.

    I do think he'd be much less likely to sign amnesty than Jeb.

    Replies: @SFG

  41. @Harry Baldwin
    @Massimo Heitor

    I would have to vote for Bernie Sanders over Jeb Bush, just as, if I had to choose between the two, I would vote for Hillary over him. It just doesn't get any worse than Jeb Bush.

    Replies: @stillCARealist, @Bleuteaux

    Yes. I have told people, I am voting for Hillary over Jeb. Jeb would be a certain disaster. I can’t think of a single policy preference of mine which advanced during his brother’s administration, and I can’t think of one which would advance during Jeb’s. Hillary would be a total mental breakdown from Day 1, completely incapacitated by her own self-inflicted drama. I’ll take that over guaranteed open borders and even lower capital gains taxes.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Bleuteaux

    It's easier for the house Republicans to unite against an amnesty plan if it's a Democrat president pushing it rather than a Republican. That's one reason I would vote for Hillary over Bush. Also, we need an opposition party and right now the country doesn't have one. Electing Bush would just validate the Republicans squishiness.

    , @Lot
    @Bleuteaux


    I’ll take that over guaranteed open borders and even lower capital gains taxes.
     
    That we had a special ultra-law 15% rate for capital gains under Bush shows just how completely awful the GOP is on eugenic issues.

    Our next generation of smart kids will be mostly coming from the families with $75,000 to $300,000 in income, families who are certainly cash constrained in their ability to have more children.

    It isn't that people with $300,000+ incomes don't have smart kids, it is just that there are far too few of them, about 1% of the population, and less than 1% of the fertile-age population.

    This graph illustrates the "winners" of capital gains tax cuts:

    http://m.motherjones.com/files/blog_capital_gains_distribution_tpc.jpg

    75.9% of the value of the cut goes to people with incomes above $1,000,000. That's a group that is far less than 1% of the population (the 1% cut-off is again around $300,000). The much more numerous group making $100,000 to $200,000 get 4.4% of any capital gains tax cut.

    Making the super-rich even richer actually depresses the eugenic fertility of the upper-middle class, who have the conspicuous consumption of the super-rich shoved in their face, both in person and by the media, making them feel poorer and less secure, and also encouraging them to waste their income on their own conspicuous consumption trying to keep up.
  42. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Pincher Martin
    I think the difference between Sanders and Klein's views are to a large degree generational. Sanders is 73 years old; Klein is 31. I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein's view than Sanders'.

    Replies: @Blah, @AnotherDad, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Anonymous, @Jus' Sayin'...

    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.

    It’d be more accurate to say that they would share Klein’s general sentiment that alleviating global poverty or inequality is good, but they wouldn’t have really thought out the practical implications of actually implementing an Open Borders policy to try to alleviate global poverty. It’s more of an abstraction for them, like the fat man trolley problem.

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Anonymous

    I think this is correct.

    Even to the extent that they share these sentiments, their feelings are shallow. Most people are inherently anti-immigration for a variety of reasons (cultural/racial, economic, environmental). Getting the masses to favor open borders is difficult, unless there's a sustained propaganda campaign and accompanying punishments for dissenters.

    There are very few people, even liberals, who want their city to be flooded with foreigners.

    , @Pincher Martin
    @Anonymous

    No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American's youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique.

    I don't think Bernie Sanders is any more practical than Ezra Klein. Sanders just grew up in an era when even many American leftists took nationalism for granted in the same sort of way that Americans took for granted that they ought to love their mothers.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Stealth, @Mr. Anon

  43. @Mark Green
    @JohnnyWalker123

    This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of 'F-' by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for 'immigration reform' via a 'pathway to citizenship' for people who entered the US illegally.

    Replies: @David, @SFG, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Auntie Analogue

    Not to mention that Sanders is a shill for illegal labor demanded by the Vermont dairy industry. It is like he has not heard that milking robots are set to revolutionize the dairy industry.

    Look Sanders is all over the place on immigration and that is not likely to change. Folks have to realize Bernie is a Jew and just as with many Jews he has a deeply irrational, ethnocentric and sentimental side concerning immigration. Like Paul Krugman at least from a decade ago, Sanders can say something completely rational from a national interest labor market analysis pov one day and then entirely contradict himself the next. Perhaps, Sanders gets his occasional immigration realist side from having attended the University of Chicago, but it does not dominate his world view.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Early_life_and_education

    Bernie Sanders was born on September 8, 1941, in Brooklyn, New York, the son of Eli and Dorothy (Glassberg) Sanders.[23][24] His father was a Jewish immigrant from Poland whose family was killed in the Holocaust,[23][25][26] while his mother was born to Jewish parents in New York.[27][28]

    Deep in his marrow Bernie Sanders is a JSSJW and he tells you that every chance he gets. I’ll credit him for that. Are you listening???

    • Replies: @rod1963
    @anonymous-antimarxist

    Sanders cannot be trusted. There is no track record of him defending secure borders or trying to stop the H1-B visa program.

    He's just saying it to knock Webb out the way and neutralize Trump's attraction among white blue collar democrats. The Democrats can't afford to lose them to Trump, because they aren't going to get the black turnout that Obama got.

    As soon as he gets the nomination he'll dump it.

    Until then it will be a hammer to thump Hillary with.

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

    , @anon
    @anonymous-antimarxist

    "JSSJW"

    Jewish Socialist Social Justice Warrior?

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

  44. People are being naive about Bernie Sanders. Hello? He’s a US Senator and running for President. He can’t *publicly* agree with Klein that the USA shouldn’t exist as a country and its OK to declare economic war on the poor and working class. During the primaries you have to pander. Pretty soon he’ll be saying “Build the Dang Fence”

    In reality, he’s just another open borders Left-wing Senator.

  45. sanders vs trump in the general election?

    Win Win!

  46. Sanders is really going against the stated views of the Democratic Party here.

    How can he be their candidate?

    Of course many Democrats would agree with him — as well as many Independents and Republicans — but how does he figure on getting the nomination?

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    @notsaying

    "Sanders is really going against the stated views of the Democratic Party here.
    How can he be their candidate?"

    Sanders the sneaky Jew is pulling a dipsy-doo.

    He really wants Hillary to win.

    But he knows that Hillary has problems with the Left and working class.

    So, he plays the angry disgruntled true blue leftist class warrior. He acts like he's mad as hell and energizes the leftist base. He throws some punches at Hillary, and Hillary pretends to change her views and positions under pressure from Bernie.

    But when the time comes and Hillary is about to win the nomination, he throws in the towel and tells his followers to say, "Well, we gotta do the right thing and support Hillary."
    Out of their loyalty to Sanders who 'put up a good fight', the leftist voters go with Hillary.

    I know how this game is played.

    Wink, wink.

    Bernie you magnificent bastard, I read your book.

  47. Bernie Sanders: “Open borders? No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal…Of course. That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States…”

    Sanders proved that open borders are a right-wing idea by voting for a massive amnesty/doubling of legal immigration right along with 100% of the senators who caucus with the Democrats. A disturbing number of Rethuglicans also voted for that bill, but it was still less than a third of them.

    If there’s some distinction between “open borders” and essentially allowing every person who comes here illegally to stay, Sen. Sanders will have to explain it.

    • Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Wilkey

    "If there’s some distinction between “open borders” and essentially allowing every person who comes here illegally to stay, Sen. Sanders will have to explain it."

    Its actually quite easy to explain; there aren't going to be mass deportations of tens of millions of people. You and I might wish that there would be, but in the real world, we know the political will doesn't exist for that to actually happen. Bernie claims he wants to prevent any more from coming. If he's being truthful (always a big "if," where politicians are concerned), that would still constitute a HUGE difference from Hillary Clinton, who wants to increase immigration from the Third World, and Jeb Bush, who actually wants to merge the USA and Mexico into a single society (presumably along with Guatemala, and maybe Haiti too, for all I know).

    Yes, I'd rather elected President Jared Taylor, and see Operation Wetback 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that isn't going to happen. Everyone knows it, so why set up the good to be merely an enemy of the perfect?

    Replies: @leftist conservative, @Wilkey

  48. You people sure are cheap dates.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @manton


    You people sure are cheap dates.
     
    Cheap dates? After two decades of supporting the GOP I feel like a victim of sex trafficking.
  49. @bomag
    As has been pointed out a zillion times before, if Ezra Klein is so anxious to redistribute wealth from Americans to Malaysians, he can start by sending his own money until he lives at the level of the average Malay.

    From what I hear of Malaysia, it is a nice enough place. I would challenge some of the accounting here.

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Bill B.

    Malaysia operates as a welfare state for Muslims, paid for by the ethnic Chinese minority.

    • Replies: @disambiguated
    @Maj. Kong

    This is correct.

    [source: I live and work in Asia, and visit Malaysia multiple times/year.]

  50. @Clyde
    Bernie and the Donald think the same on idiotic (actually traitorous) free trade deals and open borders.
    But Bernie has a big contradiction in that he wants to lead a leftist multi-cultural coalition but then wants to keep millions of 3rd worlders from freely entering the United States they way they have done the last 20-30 years

    Replies: @Maj. Kong

    He wants enough “coalition of the ascendant” to win elections for the left-wing party, but a remaining productive white/asian minority to pay for all of it.

  51. Ezra Klein must be a Republicrat because he’s both evil and stupid. He would absolutely obliterate the USA — perhaps every other white, western nation as well — trying to implement his positively infantile scheme to reduce poverty in the world.

  52. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    What is this alleviating-global-poverty BS?

    Did Europeans and Americans sit on their asses and wait for some other nation to ‘alleviate’ their poverty? No, they got off their asses and did it themselves by developing the economy, by educating themselves, by building communication networks, and etc.

    The only thing the US is responsible for is to play fair according to international standards and rules. It is up to other nations to build their own economies by working in the international system. China and India certainly did much of that in the past 20 yrs. They didn’t ask Americans to do it for them. They learned how the global system operates and worked it to their advantage and skills.

    US shouldn’t cheat other nations and certainly shouldn’t mess up other nations like it did in the Middle East and Ukraine, but it has no responsibility to build up the economies of other nations.

    Didn’t Third World nations demand independence and sovereignty? Well, they got it, so let them fix their own problems. US should be open to doing business with other nations, especially if they have something to offer that US doesn’t possess, but it is not America’s business to build the economies of other nations.

    Puerto Rico may be an exception because Yanquis stupidly annexed that stupid territory.

    But if Klein really wants US to fix wrongs around the world, how about forcing sanctions on Israel for its mistreatment of Palestinians and pumping billions in aid dollars to the Palestinian people?

  53. Bernie Sanders is sounding good to me so far. He understands that immigration is meant to drive down wages with trickle up economics. He is attacking the issue in a better way than Donald Trump (who seems to be the best candidate among the Republicans and the one with the most integrity). He lacks the baggage of someone on the right would have on this issue (of course they might dig something up on him). He has tied the issue solely on his opposition to the destructive impulses of neoliberalism. He also supports the Iran deal. I wonder how he will deal with our entrenched corporate welfare recipients that benefit from militarism. Surely he can find something better for them to do.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Johnny F. Ive

    Agree that Trump appears to be the Republican candidate with the most integrity, but that's surely less a (happy) observation about Trump and more a (sad) observation about the Republican field.

    , @Gallo-Roman
    @Johnny F. Ive

    He lacks the baggage of someone on the right would have on this issue...

    No baggage? I think previous commenters have already covered that nicely.

    And from the article:


    Think about what people who came from Europe did to the Native Americans, the atrocities committed. Think about the horrors of slavery. Think about what we did to the Asian folks that came to build the railroads and the Asian Exclusion Act. Think about discrimination against Italians, Irish, Jews, virtually everybody else who was not like the people who were here.
     
    Nobody still peddling stale nation-of-immigrants butthurt is going to work for a sane immigration policy. They are what they are, and they just can't help themselves. "Comrades, we must continue the fight against the great enemy!" (Aka the people who created this nation.)

    Unfortunately, all the other candidates in either party agree with him about who the Great Enemy is.
  54. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:
    @notsaying
    Sanders is really going against the stated views of the Democratic Party here.

    How can he be their candidate?

    Of course many Democrats would agree with him -- as well as many Independents and Republicans -- but how does he figure on getting the nomination?

    Replies: @Priss Factor

    “Sanders is really going against the stated views of the Democratic Party here.
    How can he be their candidate?”

    Sanders the sneaky Jew is pulling a dipsy-doo.

    He really wants Hillary to win.

    But he knows that Hillary has problems with the Left and working class.

    So, he plays the angry disgruntled true blue leftist class warrior. He acts like he’s mad as hell and energizes the leftist base. He throws some punches at Hillary, and Hillary pretends to change her views and positions under pressure from Bernie.

    But when the time comes and Hillary is about to win the nomination, he throws in the towel and tells his followers to say, “Well, we gotta do the right thing and support Hillary.”
    Out of their loyalty to Sanders who ‘put up a good fight’, the leftist voters go with Hillary.

    I know how this game is played.

    Wink, wink.

    Bernie you magnificent bastard, I read your book.

  55. @The Z Blog
    National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts.

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan, @Mr. Anon

    Although that article with its name calling got me interested in Sanders.

  56. iSteveFan says:
    @jJay
    Responding to IC1000's quote from Scott Alexander:

    Senator Sanders admits that his plan would cost $70 billion per year. That’s about the size of the entire economy of Hawaii. It’s enough to give $2000 every year to every American in poverty.

    George McGovern promised that every American would get a one-time $1000 gift from the USG were he to be elected President. McGovern turned out to be not such an airhead when he left public office to run a bed and breakfast. His proposal seems so modest now.

    Replies: @iSteveFan

    George McGovern promised that every American would get a one-time $1000 gift from the USG were he to be elected President. McGovern turned out to be not such an airhead when he left public office to run a bed and breakfast. His proposal seems so modest now.

    We’ve already been giving Israel the equivalent of $500 per head for years. So maybe $1000 per American, or poor American, probably does seem modest.

  57. @Luke Lea
    "But I think what we need to be doing as a global economy is making sure that people in poor countries have decent-paying jobs, have education, have health care, have nutrition for their people. That is a moral responsibility, but you don’t do that, as some would suggest, by lowering the standard of American workers, which has already gone down very significantly."

    Interestingly, this is the position Paul Samuelson took at the end of the classic paper he co-authored with Wolfgang Stolper, "Protection and Real Wages." https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B48WcEDU3CN9U1pmZXNzTlhWWUU/view?usp=sharing

    Pareto efficiency is the idea that any policy is good that will make some people better off without making anyone else worse off. Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion, Samuelson discovered in astonishment, but then saved the day for free trade by pointing out in the last paragraph that it would be possible to tax the winners (in this case, capital -- i.e., those whose income is derived from capital, including human capital) and subsidize the losers, labor.

    But if you fail to do that then you arrive at a new situation which is Pareto efficient is a sense: ironically, it now becomes impossible to subsidize labor without taxing capital, which means that capital will be left worse off than before! If one man owns the entire world it would impossible to dispossess him without violating that Pareto principle.

    Anyway, the principle of compensation has always been an integral part of the theory of free trade going all the way back to Ricardo. So Bernie is on the right track here.

    Free trade with the impoverished masses of East Asia has the same potential to impoverish American workers as does open borders. The big difference is that you can always undo the harm done by misguided trade policies, whether via tariffs (Trump) or redistributive taxation (Sanders), whereas immigration is irreversible.

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist, @Drapetomaniac

    “But I think what we need to be doing as a global economy is making sure that people in poor countries have decent-paying jobs, have education, have health care, have nutrition for their people. That is a moral responsibility, but you don’t do that, as some would suggest, by lowering the standard of American workers, which has already gone down very significantly.”

    Where in the constitution does it say we have a duty to provide for the welfare of the poor of other nations?? Mexico is perfectly capable of fixing its own dam problems. The best way of helping Mexico is by sending them back 10-20 million extra hands to help out.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States

    Has Bernie ever read this???

    Face it folks Bernie Sanders is deep in his bones a Jewish international socialist loon. His psychology does not identify with his fellow mostly goyim white Americans. His mind is is a puddle of mush sprinkled with delusions of Tikkun Olam fairy dust.

  58. @The Z Blog
    National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts.

    Replies: @White Guy In Japan, @Mr. Anon

    “The Z Blog says:

    National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts.”

    An excellent example of argumentum ad hitlerum. If you don’t like a guy, he must be a nazi, even if he is an old fashioned jewish socialist.

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Mr. Anon

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    I agree, but I wonder how it keeps lurching along. What is the economic model? Is it supported by a few rich benefactors?

    , @ben tillman
    @Mr. Anon


    The National Review has really just become total crap.
     
    Certainly, when it comes to moderating comments, it's far to the left of the Atlantic.

    Replies: @el topo

    , @The Z Blog
    @Mr. Anon


    The National Review has really just become total crap.
     
    It started going down hill at the end of Buckley's life. Like a lot of successful men, he could not tolerate the idea of someone succeeding him so he sabotaged anyone with talent slated to be his successor. The result was he handed the thing off to a toady with nothing in the way of intellectual skills. The managing editor now is a flamboyant homosexualist who ran off Mark Steyn for being insufficiently enthusiastic for gay marriage.

    I wonder if they are suffering financially. The amount of content has declined significantly of late. They have been relying on kids to create content for their site, but even that has slacked off.
  59. @Hannah Katz
    Bernie sounds pretty good... so far. Now, how shall we pay for free college? How shall we pay $15 an hour to people that do not make nearly that much for the business owner by their labor because they have no skills and a bad attitude? The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money...

    Replies: @Drapetomaniac, @Difference Maker, @Nathan Wartooth, @AshTon

    “The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money…”

    The problem with ALL forms of government is that they eventually grow so large that they run out of other people’s money.

    The US started with a small, not very intrusive, government. How’s that working out?

    • Replies: @Realist
    @Drapetomaniac

    "The US started with a small, not very intrusive, government. How’s that working out?"

    Not so well, like all democracies.

  60. @Anonymous
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    It'd be more accurate to say that they would share Klein's general sentiment that alleviating global poverty or inequality is good, but they wouldn't have really thought out the practical implications of actually implementing an Open Borders policy to try to alleviate global poverty. It's more of an abstraction for them, like the fat man trolley problem.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Pincher Martin

    I think this is correct.

    Even to the extent that they share these sentiments, their feelings are shallow. Most people are inherently anti-immigration for a variety of reasons (cultural/racial, economic, environmental). Getting the masses to favor open borders is difficult, unless there’s a sustained propaganda campaign and accompanying punishments for dissenters.

    There are very few people, even liberals, who want their city to be flooded with foreigners.

  61. @JohnnyWalker123
    Good for Sanders. Everything he said is correct and it shows he's thought deeply on this issue.

    The next step is for Sanders to outline some specific proposals for cutting legal immigration and ending all these "guest worker" programs (H1B, OPT, B1, agriculture workers, etc.).

    Replies: @Mark Green, @ben tillman, @Jus' Sayin'...

    Good for Sanders. Everything he said is correct and it shows he’s thought deeply on this issue.

    Except for the Koches being on the right. Plutocracy has always been a phenomenon of the Left.

  62. @Hannah Katz
    Bernie sounds pretty good... so far. Now, how shall we pay for free college? How shall we pay $15 an hour to people that do not make nearly that much for the business owner by their labor because they have no skills and a bad attitude? The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money...

    Replies: @Drapetomaniac, @Difference Maker, @Nathan Wartooth, @AshTon

    You don’t make any money for me either. You can start by paying for your Mexican’s food, healthcare and welfare. I’ll send you the bill

  63. @Luke Lea
    "But I think what we need to be doing as a global economy is making sure that people in poor countries have decent-paying jobs, have education, have health care, have nutrition for their people. That is a moral responsibility, but you don’t do that, as some would suggest, by lowering the standard of American workers, which has already gone down very significantly."

    Interestingly, this is the position Paul Samuelson took at the end of the classic paper he co-authored with Wolfgang Stolper, "Protection and Real Wages." https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B48WcEDU3CN9U1pmZXNzTlhWWUU/view?usp=sharing

    Pareto efficiency is the idea that any policy is good that will make some people better off without making anyone else worse off. Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion, Samuelson discovered in astonishment, but then saved the day for free trade by pointing out in the last paragraph that it would be possible to tax the winners (in this case, capital -- i.e., those whose income is derived from capital, including human capital) and subsidize the losers, labor.

    But if you fail to do that then you arrive at a new situation which is Pareto efficient is a sense: ironically, it now becomes impossible to subsidize labor without taxing capital, which means that capital will be left worse off than before! If one man owns the entire world it would impossible to dispossess him without violating that Pareto principle.

    Anyway, the principle of compensation has always been an integral part of the theory of free trade going all the way back to Ricardo. So Bernie is on the right track here.

    Free trade with the impoverished masses of East Asia has the same potential to impoverish American workers as does open borders. The big difference is that you can always undo the harm done by misguided trade policies, whether via tariffs (Trump) or redistributive taxation (Sanders), whereas immigration is irreversible.

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist, @Drapetomaniac

    “Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion”

    Would you mind pointing out the free trade trade you are talking about?

    It is as real as the free market economy – it doesn’t exist.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Drapetomaniac

    "Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion

    Would you mind pointing out the free trade trade you are talking about?

    It is as real as the free market economy – it doesn’t exist."

    Dear Draptomaniac, I am using free trade as short hand for freer trade, lower trade barriers, reduced tariffs, etc. It is all a matter of degree, just as it is always a matter of wages not the number of jobs. I can't help it if the public discourse is sloppy in its discussion of these issues. How would you like to phrase it?

  64. @manton
    You people sure are cheap dates.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    You people sure are cheap dates.

    Cheap dates? After two decades of supporting the GOP I feel like a victim of sex trafficking.

  65. “What is this alleviating-global-poverty BS?”

    I’ve heard that we are always going to have poverty with us due to the evils of those people called statisticians. Death to statisticians! End poverty now! It’s only right!

  66. @Priss Factor
    Economics aside, why should a nation-state destroy its racial and cultural heritage via open borders?

    Suppose open borders will make US only 20% white but economically richer or everyone. Should we then be for open borders?

    I would still oppose it because US will have been utterly changed racially and culturally.

    Nepal will be richer if it allows 10 million middle class Chinese move in, but it won't be Nepal anymore.

    A nation state's first role is to defend its integrity of race and culture. Economics comes next.

    Some things are beyond price. Would you sell your kids for $$$? Africans would, but well, that's why they is Africans.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

    Would you sell your kids for $$$? Africans would, but well, that’s why they is Africans.

    To be fair, they have extras.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    @Harry Baldwin

    "To be fair, they have extras."

    We are told feminism is great cuz it allows women to pursue careers than be mothers and have kids.

    But this will lead to depopulation. What about the new generation? If feminism leads to birth dearth, isn't that suicidal?

    But we are not supposed to say women should have more kids.

    The solution, we are told, is third world immigration from nations where women have more children due to lack of feminism.

    So, feminism is good and anti-feminism is bad in the west, but the west depends on anti-feminist non-west to provide the people for the future west. In other words, thank todd that the non-west isn't feminist.

    Suppose the entire world signs onto feminism and suffers from birth dearth. Suppose even the third world runs out of people to send to the west.
    But for the feminist west to survive in the long run, it requires the anti-feminist third world to produce surplus people to move to the west.
    What kind of logic is that?

    Anyway, if the west fills up with anti-feminist non-whites, won't western feminism eventually decline and fade away?

    So, in the long run, the west will finally be rid of feminism by becoming majority non-white. But then, it would no longer be racially and culturally western either.

  67. @Bleuteaux
    @Harry Baldwin

    Yes. I have told people, I am voting for Hillary over Jeb. Jeb would be a certain disaster. I can't think of a single policy preference of mine which advanced during his brother's administration, and I can't think of one which would advance during Jeb's. Hillary would be a total mental breakdown from Day 1, completely incapacitated by her own self-inflicted drama. I'll take that over guaranteed open borders and even lower capital gains taxes.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Lot

    It’s easier for the house Republicans to unite against an amnesty plan if it’s a Democrat president pushing it rather than a Republican. That’s one reason I would vote for Hillary over Bush. Also, we need an opposition party and right now the country doesn’t have one. Electing Bush would just validate the Republicans squishiness.

  68. You people are so gullible…

    He doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Americans, White people, or anyone else but for his Tribe. They have a mission, and it’s not one of mercy. He’s playing his part.

    He’s a liar. It’s what they do. And it’s effective, because: A) they’re good at it; B) White people -playing the part of the ‘mark’- have a genetic instinct to trust (It’s how we’ve built civilizations – by trusting each other.); C) most people are ignorant idiots! …Dysgenics hasn’t only been working upon the non-White races these past decades.

    As for the non-Jewish politicians, they’re liars too. But their ambitions are merely self-serving and eg0-driven. They’ll throw their nation under the bus if it means they’ll get invited to High Society cocktail parties. And they’re all blackmail-able. They have skeletons or they wouldn’t be chosen as candidates.

    Until you imbeciles wise up, you’ll continue to be seen as moronic sheep deserving to be sheared and thrown to the Black and Brown wolves!

    I can’t say I blame them!

  69. @bomag
    As has been pointed out a zillion times before, if Ezra Klein is so anxious to redistribute wealth from Americans to Malaysians, he can start by sending his own money until he lives at the level of the average Malay.

    From what I hear of Malaysia, it is a nice enough place. I would challenge some of the accounting here.

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Bill B.

    I find it amazing that in this supposedly globalized world politicians and pundits in the West still talk about almost any country that is not distinctly first world as if most of the population were running around in animal skins.

    Malaysia has a quite sophisticated middle-income economy with good prospects (as long as it doesn’t trip over its Islamism). Its tycoons are making trophy investments in western capitals as they reap the rewards of strong links to both the Gulf and, of course, China.

    When a British businessman said in jest (in the 1980s) to a Malaysian colleague that he did not think it quite right to see Chinese driving Rolls Royce limos around Kuala Lumpur when they were part of the English patrimony. The response from his ethnic Chinese friend was: “Don’t worry in the future Rolls Royces will be driven by Englishmen. The Chinese guy will be sitting in the back.” (OK this also happens to be an old joke but this exchange actually happened.)

    They do things differently in Malaysia (it is very corrupt) but is it not fantastically insulting and plain ignorant to imagine that this coherent nation-state would be better off merged into some sort of global entity run by the one-percenters?

    A good idea: whenever a silly liberal argues that people from X country would be better off moving to the West ask if X will also be throwing away its border controls. The answer is never ever yes.

  70. Did someone on Sanders staff realize that Trump had something going for him with the anti-immigration tilt or what?

    Because this sounds like bullshit coming from him…

  71. @Mr. Anon
    @The Z Blog

    "The Z Blog says:

    National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts."

    An excellent example of argumentum ad hitlerum. If you don't like a guy, he must be a nazi, even if he is an old fashioned jewish socialist.

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @ben tillman, @The Z Blog

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    I agree, but I wonder how it keeps lurching along. What is the economic model? Is it supported by a few rich benefactors?

  72. @stillCARealist
    @Harry Baldwin

    Say what? If the choice is between Commie Lib #1 and Commie Lib #2, you leave it blank.

    Replies: @ben tillman

    Say what? If the choice is between Commie Lib #1 and Commie Lib #2, you leave it blank.

    I’ve voted for Perot, Buchanan, Baldwin, and — yes — Ralph Nader.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    @ben tillman

    Did you vote for John Anderson to make it a straight flush?

    Replies: @ben tillman

    , @Truth
    @ben tillman

    LOL, I was with you on 2/4. You just have to figure out which 2.

  73. @Mr. Anon
    @The Z Blog

    "The Z Blog says:

    National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts."

    An excellent example of argumentum ad hitlerum. If you don't like a guy, he must be a nazi, even if he is an old fashioned jewish socialist.

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @ben tillman, @The Z Blog

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    Certainly, when it comes to moderating comments, it’s far to the left of the Atlantic.

    • Replies: @el topo
    @ben tillman

    I was shocked at the low level of discourse when I looked at the comments to a couple of NR articles.

  74. @Andrew Jackson
    This is good news. I welcome leftwing opposition to open borders. It makes it more difficult to dismiss opposition to open borders as racism.

    Replies: @ben tillman

    This is good news. I welcome leftwing opposition to open borders. It makes it more difficult to dismiss opposition to open borders as racism.

    Racism is bad; self-defense is never bad; opposition to immigration is self-defense; therefore opposition to immigration can never be racism.

    • Replies: @Vinegar
    @ben tillman

    Nothing will change until White males can see past their bitch tits and fat bellies and find their goddamned nutsack, and stop being afraid of being called a racist.

    It should be a badge of honor -- for it means you might actually have a brain capable of independent thought, or drawing reasonable conclusions from observable reality.

    Who gives a shit about the feelings of people who hate you? And believe me, they do hate you.

  75. @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Mark Green

    Not to mention that Sanders is a shill for illegal labor demanded by the Vermont dairy industry. It is like he has not heard that milking robots are set to revolutionize the dairy industry.

    Look Sanders is all over the place on immigration and that is not likely to change. Folks have to realize Bernie is a Jew and just as with many Jews he has a deeply irrational, ethnocentric and sentimental side concerning immigration. Like Paul Krugman at least from a decade ago, Sanders can say something completely rational from a national interest labor market analysis pov one day and then entirely contradict himself the next. Perhaps, Sanders gets his occasional immigration realist side from having attended the University of Chicago, but it does not dominate his world view.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Early_life_and_education


    Bernie Sanders was born on September 8, 1941, in Brooklyn, New York, the son of Eli and Dorothy (Glassberg) Sanders.[23][24] His father was a Jewish immigrant from Poland whose family was killed in the Holocaust,[23][25][26] while his mother was born to Jewish parents in New York.[27][28]
     
    Deep in his marrow Bernie Sanders is a JSSJW and he tells you that every chance he gets. I'll credit him for that. Are you listening???

    Replies: @rod1963, @anon

    Sanders cannot be trusted. There is no track record of him defending secure borders or trying to stop the H1-B visa program.

    He’s just saying it to knock Webb out the way and neutralize Trump’s attraction among white blue collar democrats. The Democrats can’t afford to lose them to Trump, because they aren’t going to get the black turnout that Obama got.

    As soon as he gets the nomination he’ll dump it.

    Until then it will be a hammer to thump Hillary with.

    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    @rod1963

    Sanders is too much of a "hot mess" to threaten the Sea Hag's hold on the nomination. Sanders appeals to the aging SWPL baby boomer and older lefties. Break out the tie dye for Christ sakes

    The young professional SJW set mocks Sanders even now and know that those paying their bills, Soros and company, will only keep him around as long as he keeps sucking up the populist air and media exposure that a Jim Webb needs.

    More importantly there is zero institutional Democratic party support for Sanders. Webb would have at least have some appeal to the very very last of the moderate and blue collar white Democratic party rank and file.

    The second Sanders is not needed, Soros will crush him less he throws in the towel and backs Hilary.

    Sanders has about the same chance another flash in the pan Mike Pence(The Cuckservative's Cuckservative) had back in April of getting the Republican nomination.

  76. @ben tillman
    @Andrew Jackson


    This is good news. I welcome leftwing opposition to open borders. It makes it more difficult to dismiss opposition to open borders as racism.
     
    Racism is bad; self-defense is never bad; opposition to immigration is self-defense; therefore opposition to immigration can never be racism.

    Replies: @Vinegar

    Nothing will change until White males can see past their bitch tits and fat bellies and find their goddamned nutsack, and stop being afraid of being called a racist.

    It should be a badge of honor — for it means you might actually have a brain capable of independent thought, or drawing reasonable conclusions from observable reality.

    Who gives a shit about the feelings of people who hate you? And believe me, they do hate you.

  77. anon • Disclaimer says:

    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.

    Only because they’re been fed bankster drivel in the media and don’t have personal experience to refute it because the negative effects start at the bottom and work their way up.

    Over the last 30 years every bit of bankster drivel that was supposed to bring prosperity has done the exact opposite while making the banking mafia richer.

    It’s not a coincidence. The banksters want what makes them richer in the short term and *they do not care* about the consequences.

  78. @Maj. Kong
    @bomag

    Malaysia operates as a welfare state for Muslims, paid for by the ethnic Chinese minority.

    Replies: @disambiguated

    This is correct.

    [source: I live and work in Asia, and visit Malaysia multiple times/year.]

  79. @timothy
    @e

    That's why you're not a politician. It was a shrewd way to frame it for someone running for the Democratic nomination for the presidency.

    Replies: @Realist

    “It was a shrewd way to frame it for someone running for the Democratic nomination for the presidency.”

    Shrewd….not so much. Anyone with a triple digit IQ can see through it. But I guess that doesn’t matter so much on the Democrat side.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Realist

    Shrewd….not so much. Anyone with a triple digit IQ can see through it.

    Actually, I think shrewd is the right word, according to this definition: "Disposed to or marked by artful and cunning practices; tricky."

  80. el topo [AKA "darryl revok"] says:
    @ben tillman
    @Mr. Anon


    The National Review has really just become total crap.
     
    Certainly, when it comes to moderating comments, it's far to the left of the Atlantic.

    Replies: @el topo

    I was shocked at the low level of discourse when I looked at the comments to a couple of NR articles.

  81. @Drapetomaniac
    @Hannah Katz

    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money…"

    The problem with ALL forms of government is that they eventually grow so large that they run out of other people's money.

    The US started with a small, not very intrusive, government. How's that working out?

    Replies: @Realist

    “The US started with a small, not very intrusive, government. How’s that working out?”

    Not so well, like all democracies.

  82. @Mark Green
    @JohnnyWalker123

    This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of 'F-' by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for 'immigration reform' via a 'pathway to citizenship' for people who entered the US illegally.

    Replies: @David, @SFG, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Auntie Analogue

    “This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of ‘F-’ by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    “Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for ‘immigration reform’ via a ‘pathway to citizenship’ for people who entered the US illegally.”

    Thank you, Mark Green, for pointing out reality.

    Bernie Sanders is no deep thinker, he’s just another deep stinker.

  83. @AnotherDad
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    Pincher, I don't think this is true, at least as stated.

    As even several mainstream columnists have pointed out, immigration is the issue where the attitudes of the elites are the furthest out of sync with popular opinion.

    While it's certainly true that *relative to less educated Americans* more educated Americans skew more Klein's way. But in absolute terms even educated Americans are overwhelmingly closer to Sanders view that Americans should be taking care of Americans, rather than Klein's we need Open Borders to bring the poor here to lift them up.

    Polls are pretty overwhelming on these immigration issues. Depending on how you phrase you can get some sort of iffy plurality that things are sorta ok as is--if they'd stop illegal immigration! More immigration is the least popular position, rejected by everyone by except landscaping company owners, building contractors, hoteliers, produce farmers and leftist intellectuals yelling "racism!".

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    I simply meant that nationalism, like religion, seem to be dying out among young Americans. They are less patriotic, less focused on their own country’s well-being when considering social issues, and less committed to the idea of national self-interest when considering military force.

    It’a funny that even an old socialist like Bernie Sanders, who was born during WW2, has a commitment to nationalism that surprises Klein, probably because the younger man rarely sees it when discussing issues with his peers.

    • Replies: @BubbaJoe
    @Pincher Martin

    Possibly because their country is less focused on their own well-being. You have to be bat-sh*t crazy and/or evil to think Iraq (or, frankly, Vietnam) was in our national interest. There are two parts to the current madness- Invade the World/Invite the World. The latter gets more attention here (as it should), but the former has a longer history, and its perniciousness should not be undervalued.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @Harold
    @Pincher Martin

    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state. Why should White Americans care about the local Somalian community more than they care about Somalians in Somalia? And why should they pay welfare to the local Somalians when those dollars would stretch further if given to Somalians in Somalia? None of it makes any sense.

    Racism, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and it is natural. I care what happens to White Americans even though I am a New Zealander, we both create similar sorts of societies in which we would both feel comfortable.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

  84. @Anonymous
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    It'd be more accurate to say that they would share Klein's general sentiment that alleviating global poverty or inequality is good, but they wouldn't have really thought out the practical implications of actually implementing an Open Borders policy to try to alleviate global poverty. It's more of an abstraction for them, like the fat man trolley problem.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Pincher Martin

    No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American’s youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique.

    I don’t think Bernie Sanders is any more practical than Ezra Klein. Sanders just grew up in an era when even many American leftists took nationalism for granted in the same sort of way that Americans took for granted that they ought to love their mothers.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Pincher Martin

    The twenty-somethings I know appear to believe that nationalism and patriotism are quaint relics of an earlier, more ignorant age; and possibly, vaguely racist besides.

    Self-possessed nations, like white people, present a perceived existential threat to that supra-national, tribal elite which must never be named.

    Partly as an aside, older people often experience difficulty imagining how completely young peoples' worldviews are shaped by the entertainment industry.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Anonym

    , @Stealth
    @Pincher Martin

    "No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American’s youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique."

    Every country is special and unique. And America has certainly been blessed in the sense of being fortunate. However, the idea that America is entitled to push the rest of the world around has caused a hell of a lot of trouble.

    However, you don't have to believe that America is better in God's sight than the rest of the world to love the country as your homeland and desire to protect it from throngs of foreigners who will destroy our quality of life.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Pincher Martin

    "No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American’s youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique."

    The abandonment of American Exceptionalism is a necessary precursor to the development of a healthy american nationalism. A real patriot doesn't love his country because his country is special, blessed, or unique; he loves it because it is his, because it is the land of his forefathers.

    American nationalism as it is expressed by mainstream conservatives is an anti-nationalism - a loyalty not to America the country, but rather to America the idea, the proposition.

    Not that young people today are thinking along those lines.

    Replies: @Olorin

  85. “Open borders!” is just “Death to America!” in different words.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Harold

    “Open borders!” is just “Death to America!” in different words.

    Well put. I'll use that. (And mass immigration is a slow death. . . )

  86. @Pincher Martin
    @AnotherDad

    I simply meant that nationalism, like religion, seem to be dying out among young Americans. They are less patriotic, less focused on their own country's well-being when considering social issues, and less committed to the idea of national self-interest when considering military force.

    It'a funny that even an old socialist like Bernie Sanders, who was born during WW2, has a commitment to nationalism that surprises Klein, probably because the younger man rarely sees it when discussing issues with his peers.

    Replies: @BubbaJoe, @Harold

    Possibly because their country is less focused on their own well-being. You have to be bat-sh*t crazy and/or evil to think Iraq (or, frankly, Vietnam) was in our national interest. There are two parts to the current madness- Invade the World/Invite the World. The latter gets more attention here (as it should), but the former has a longer history, and its perniciousness should not be undervalued.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @BubbaJoe

    Nationalism isn't instinctive. It's an abstraction that has to be inculcated. And our elites aren't as committed to teaching it as they once were.

  87. @Pincher Martin
    @AnotherDad

    I simply meant that nationalism, like religion, seem to be dying out among young Americans. They are less patriotic, less focused on their own country's well-being when considering social issues, and less committed to the idea of national self-interest when considering military force.

    It'a funny that even an old socialist like Bernie Sanders, who was born during WW2, has a commitment to nationalism that surprises Klein, probably because the younger man rarely sees it when discussing issues with his peers.

    Replies: @BubbaJoe, @Harold

    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state. Why should White Americans care about the local Somalian community more than they care about Somalians in Somalia? And why should they pay welfare to the local Somalians when those dollars would stretch further if given to Somalians in Somalia? None of it makes any sense.

    Racism, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and it is natural. I care what happens to White Americans even though I am a New Zealander, we both create similar sorts of societies in which we would both feel comfortable.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Harold


    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state.
     
    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.

    Racism, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and it is natural.
     
    I disagree. If it were natural, we wouldn't be fighting our elites tooth and nail to close the borders and stop them from remaking the country.

    Replies: @Harold, @Reg Cæsar

  88. The longer Bernie talks in the clip the more it just becomes socialist gobbledygook but I am amazed to see a hard line socialist defending the nation-state. Even Ezra was stunned.

    He’s a dying breed. There can’t many left.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    @Anonymous

    The longer Bernie talks in the clip the more it just becomes socialist gobbledygook but I am amazed to see a hard line socialist defending the nation-state.

    It seems we're willing to give leftists credit for occasional moments of clarity even when those moments are ensconced in oceans of bullsit. Case in point: Camille Pagila's recent interview in which she likened Bill Clinton to Bill Cosby. All very well, but if you read on you start getting into Paglia's bizarre feminist gobbIledegook. I had to bail out well before the end.

    Of course, leftists see it the other way around: they forgive the occasional deviations from the party line in Sanders and Paglia because they spend most of their time demonstrating loyalty to the cause.

  89. Lot says:
    @ic1000
    Hooray for the common sense that Sanders displays in pointing out the virtues of the nation-state for its humbler citizens. Such as, a job that pays a decent wage.

    Less enthused about his love affair with Free College For All. Scott Alexander wrote about the economic reality of this idea in Part IV of Against Tulip Subsidies.

    Senator Sanders admits that his plan would cost $70 billion per year. That’s about the size of the entire economy of Hawaii. It’s enough to give $2000 every year to every American in poverty.

    At what point do we say “Actually, no, let’s not do that, and just let people hold basic jobs even if they don’t cough up a a hundred thousand dollars from somewhere to get a degree in Medieval History”?

    I’m afraid that Sanders’ plan is a lot like the tulip subsidy idea that started off this post. It would subsidize the continuation of a useless tradition that has turned into a speculation bubble, prevent the bubble from ever popping, and disincentivize people from figuring out a way to route around the problem...
     

    Replies: @Lot

    Less enthused about his love affair with Free College For All.

    Yes, it is a stupid idea. But Sanders’ education policy, presumably as a socialist, would involve a lot more spending on efficient public higher education.

    Right now, we have de facto college for all. The government will loan almost anyone $400,000, with the one exception being someone with drug offenses on their record. Not too many 18 year olds have adult criminal records however.

    The large number of scam trade schools therefore spend more than half of their budgets or more on:

    (1) profits for the scumbags who run them, an unholy alliance of sleazy salesmen, deans who accuse anyone who points to their students’ job market failures as racists who don’t think minorities should get educations, and the private equity financiers who provide the seed capital

    (2) advertising and direct marketing

    (3) aggressive recruiters and a huge financial aid department to help their dim-witted victims fill out the forms and keep the money rolling in.

    When the students default, they are hounded for the rest of their lives for the money, with no bankruptcy discharge allowed but plenty of wage garnishing, so usually a moderate amount does get paid back. But mostly the scumbag salesmen, third-tier liberal arts school Ph.D. deans, and Mitt Romneys get their profits from “loans” the federal government pays out but barely repaid.

    The sleazy trade schools have so much power, nobody knows how much this costs taxpayers each year, because their many whores in Congress have inserted riders into education laws that prevent the Department of Education from compiling the data. They have also bought off the Heritage Foundation, which sells public funded for-profit education as a great wonder of the free market to conservatives in congress.

    We do know that more than half of all student loans are not actively being paid back right now, and total student debt hit more than $1 trillion not too long ago and is rising very quickly, even as all other major categories of personal debt (credit card, mortgage, auto, store-card) are well below their 2000’s peaks.

    If Bernie shuts this scam down, and I think he’d like to, that would probably free up an amount pretty close to the $70 billion he wants for free college.

    • Replies: @ic1000
    @Lot

    Well said, Lot. There are other sensible ways to start aligning the interests of the Education-Industrial Complex with those of citizens and taxpayers. All it would take would be a little political will, ha ha. For example:

    * Treat student loan debt like any other: dischargeable in bankruptcy.

    * Make colleges responsible for a third of the unpaid balance on their students' loans.

    This is another instance of the agency problem, like the subprime mortgage meltdown. Once again, big business and cultural Marxists find it in their common interest to assign moral hazard anywhere but to the lenders and to other beneficiaries of risky behavior.

    That points out one of Sanders' challenges -- his blank slate ideology plays passably well in SWPL Vermont, but he is easy meat for the sharks and wolves of the rest of the world.

    , @Mike Sylwester
    @Lot


    mostly the scumbag salesmen, third-tier liberal arts school Ph.D. deans, and Mitt Romneys get their profits from “loans” the federal government pays out but barely repaid
     
    It was odd that you decided to spoil your long comment with an inane remark about Romney.
  90. Lot says:
    @Bleuteaux
    @Harry Baldwin

    Yes. I have told people, I am voting for Hillary over Jeb. Jeb would be a certain disaster. I can't think of a single policy preference of mine which advanced during his brother's administration, and I can't think of one which would advance during Jeb's. Hillary would be a total mental breakdown from Day 1, completely incapacitated by her own self-inflicted drama. I'll take that over guaranteed open borders and even lower capital gains taxes.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Lot

    I’ll take that over guaranteed open borders and even lower capital gains taxes.

    That we had a special ultra-law 15% rate for capital gains under Bush shows just how completely awful the GOP is on eugenic issues.

    Our next generation of smart kids will be mostly coming from the families with $75,000 to $300,000 in income, families who are certainly cash constrained in their ability to have more children.

    It isn’t that people with $300,000+ incomes don’t have smart kids, it is just that there are far too few of them, about 1% of the population, and less than 1% of the fertile-age population.

    This graph illustrates the “winners” of capital gains tax cuts:

    75.9% of the value of the cut goes to people with incomes above $1,000,000. That’s a group that is far less than 1% of the population (the 1% cut-off is again around $300,000). The much more numerous group making $100,000 to $200,000 get 4.4% of any capital gains tax cut.

    Making the super-rich even richer actually depresses the eugenic fertility of the upper-middle class, who have the conspicuous consumption of the super-rich shoved in their face, both in person and by the media, making them feel poorer and less secure, and also encouraging them to waste their income on their own conspicuous consumption trying to keep up.

  91. @Lot
    @ic1000


    Less enthused about his love affair with Free College For All.
     
    Yes, it is a stupid idea. But Sanders' education policy, presumably as a socialist, would involve a lot more spending on efficient public higher education.

    Right now, we have de facto college for all. The government will loan almost anyone $400,000, with the one exception being someone with drug offenses on their record. Not too many 18 year olds have adult criminal records however.

    The large number of scam trade schools therefore spend more than half of their budgets or more on:

    (1) profits for the scumbags who run them, an unholy alliance of sleazy salesmen, deans who accuse anyone who points to their students' job market failures as racists who don't think minorities should get educations, and the private equity financiers who provide the seed capital

    (2) advertising and direct marketing

    (3) aggressive recruiters and a huge financial aid department to help their dim-witted victims fill out the forms and keep the money rolling in.

    When the students default, they are hounded for the rest of their lives for the money, with no bankruptcy discharge allowed but plenty of wage garnishing, so usually a moderate amount does get paid back. But mostly the scumbag salesmen, third-tier liberal arts school Ph.D. deans, and Mitt Romneys get their profits from "loans" the federal government pays out but barely repaid.

    The sleazy trade schools have so much power, nobody knows how much this costs taxpayers each year, because their many whores in Congress have inserted riders into education laws that prevent the Department of Education from compiling the data. They have also bought off the Heritage Foundation, which sells public funded for-profit education as a great wonder of the free market to conservatives in congress.

    We do know that more than half of all student loans are not actively being paid back right now, and total student debt hit more than $1 trillion not too long ago and is rising very quickly, even as all other major categories of personal debt (credit card, mortgage, auto, store-card) are well below their 2000's peaks.

    If Bernie shuts this scam down, and I think he'd like to, that would probably free up an amount pretty close to the $70 billion he wants for free college.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Mike Sylwester

    Well said, Lot. There are other sensible ways to start aligning the interests of the Education-Industrial Complex with those of citizens and taxpayers. All it would take would be a little political will, ha ha. For example:

    * Treat student loan debt like any other: dischargeable in bankruptcy.

    * Make colleges responsible for a third of the unpaid balance on their students’ loans.

    This is another instance of the agency problem, like the subprime mortgage meltdown. Once again, big business and cultural Marxists find it in their common interest to assign moral hazard anywhere but to the lenders and to other beneficiaries of risky behavior.

    That points out one of Sanders’ challenges — his blank slate ideology plays passably well in SWPL Vermont, but he is easy meat for the sharks and wolves of the rest of the world.

  92. @e
    Now, if Bernie had just said, "The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love" lower wages, I'd be okay with that--showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn't, however.

    Replies: @timothy, @Jesse, @Nathan Wartooth, @IBC, @Ash

    “Now, if Bernie had just said, “The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love” lower wages, I’d be okay with that–showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn’t, however.”

    You’re not his target audience. Showing that a bunch of right wing plutocrats (as opposed to, well, their left wing counterparts) are pushing for open borders to crush their own compatriots is a great way to bring us liberals onto the side of patriotic immigration reform.

    Sometimes the fact that you’re right is irrelevant. You have to adapt the message and attach it to people your audience already despises.

  93. When it comes to the “education for all/nuh UH that’s a bad idea” arguments, I have this inchoate idea that the very existence of the debate, and how it’s framed, is very bad for ordinary people. Let me think out loud (so to speak) here.

    The question of education has far too much prominence. It can’t make up for stupid/actively malicious trade deals, population policies, immigration, off shoring, out sourcing, demographic shifts, mechanization, bell curve realities etc., and it’s foolish to expect it to do so.

    It’s almost like education is a bit of a honey trap for very dedicated, very able enemies of The Ecosystem. Whether on the left right or center, they get shunted into an arena where they have a huge amount of influence but which can’t make any difference to the wider problems.

    So the obsession with the education system – it’s missing the point. Sanders is missing it, obviously, but so are many of his opponents. You could get the greatest education system ever – including vocational education – and people would still be utterly screwed.

  94. @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Mark Green

    Not to mention that Sanders is a shill for illegal labor demanded by the Vermont dairy industry. It is like he has not heard that milking robots are set to revolutionize the dairy industry.

    Look Sanders is all over the place on immigration and that is not likely to change. Folks have to realize Bernie is a Jew and just as with many Jews he has a deeply irrational, ethnocentric and sentimental side concerning immigration. Like Paul Krugman at least from a decade ago, Sanders can say something completely rational from a national interest labor market analysis pov one day and then entirely contradict himself the next. Perhaps, Sanders gets his occasional immigration realist side from having attended the University of Chicago, but it does not dominate his world view.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Early_life_and_education


    Bernie Sanders was born on September 8, 1941, in Brooklyn, New York, the son of Eli and Dorothy (Glassberg) Sanders.[23][24] His father was a Jewish immigrant from Poland whose family was killed in the Holocaust,[23][25][26] while his mother was born to Jewish parents in New York.[27][28]
     
    Deep in his marrow Bernie Sanders is a JSSJW and he tells you that every chance he gets. I'll credit him for that. Are you listening???

    Replies: @rod1963, @anon

    “JSSJW”

    Jewish Socialist Social Justice Warrior?

    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    @anon

    You are brilliant!!!

  95. @Johnny F. Ive
    Bernie Sanders is sounding good to me so far. He understands that immigration is meant to drive down wages with trickle up economics. He is attacking the issue in a better way than Donald Trump (who seems to be the best candidate among the Republicans and the one with the most integrity). He lacks the baggage of someone on the right would have on this issue (of course they might dig something up on him). He has tied the issue solely on his opposition to the destructive impulses of neoliberalism. He also supports the Iran deal. I wonder how he will deal with our entrenched corporate welfare recipients that benefit from militarism. Surely he can find something better for them to do.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Gallo-Roman

    Agree that Trump appears to be the Republican candidate with the most integrity, but that’s surely less a (happy) observation about Trump and more a (sad) observation about the Republican field.

  96. @Pincher Martin
    @Anonymous

    No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American's youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique.

    I don't think Bernie Sanders is any more practical than Ezra Klein. Sanders just grew up in an era when even many American leftists took nationalism for granted in the same sort of way that Americans took for granted that they ought to love their mothers.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Stealth, @Mr. Anon

    The twenty-somethings I know appear to believe that nationalism and patriotism are quaint relics of an earlier, more ignorant age; and possibly, vaguely racist besides.

    Self-possessed nations, like white people, present a perceived existential threat to that supra-national, tribal elite which must never be named.

    Partly as an aside, older people often experience difficulty imagining how completely young peoples’ worldviews are shaped by the entertainment industry.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Kyle McKenna


    The twenty-somethings I know appear to believe that nationalism and patriotism are quaint relics of an earlier, more ignorant age; and possibly, vaguely racist besides.
     
    I completely agree. And that divide crosses over partisan affiliation.

    But I don't want to exaggerate. Most young Americans still favor their country. It's just that nationalism has gone from an overwhelming feeling in most Americans to one which is not nearly as strong as it once was. Our educational system no longer encourages it.
    , @Anonym
    @Kyle McKenna

    All you have to do is be around some of them who are completely consumed by media/entertainment. Their views change in response to Celeb views like a game of Simon Says. Simon says Caitlyn is a woman!

  97. @Pincher Martin
    @Anonymous

    No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American's youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique.

    I don't think Bernie Sanders is any more practical than Ezra Klein. Sanders just grew up in an era when even many American leftists took nationalism for granted in the same sort of way that Americans took for granted that they ought to love their mothers.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Stealth, @Mr. Anon

    “No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American’s youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique.”

    Every country is special and unique. And America has certainly been blessed in the sense of being fortunate. However, the idea that America is entitled to push the rest of the world around has caused a hell of a lot of trouble.

    However, you don’t have to believe that America is better in God’s sight than the rest of the world to love the country as your homeland and desire to protect it from throngs of foreigners who will destroy our quality of life.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    @Stealth


    Every country is special and unique.
     
    Spoken like a young American.

    And America has certainly been blessed in the sense of being fortunate. However, the idea that America is entitled to push the rest of the world around has caused a hell of a lot of trouble.
     
    You misunderstand. This has nothing to do with an aggressive and assertive foreign policy. American exceptionalism was a source of pride among Americans even before the U.S took center stage in world politics.

    However, you don’t have to believe that America is better in God’s sight than the rest of the world to love the country as your homeland and desire to protect it from throngs of foreigners who will destroy our quality of life.
     
    In theory, you don't. But in practice that's probably the way it works.

    Replies: @SFG

  98. @Lot
    @ic1000


    Less enthused about his love affair with Free College For All.
     
    Yes, it is a stupid idea. But Sanders' education policy, presumably as a socialist, would involve a lot more spending on efficient public higher education.

    Right now, we have de facto college for all. The government will loan almost anyone $400,000, with the one exception being someone with drug offenses on their record. Not too many 18 year olds have adult criminal records however.

    The large number of scam trade schools therefore spend more than half of their budgets or more on:

    (1) profits for the scumbags who run them, an unholy alliance of sleazy salesmen, deans who accuse anyone who points to their students' job market failures as racists who don't think minorities should get educations, and the private equity financiers who provide the seed capital

    (2) advertising and direct marketing

    (3) aggressive recruiters and a huge financial aid department to help their dim-witted victims fill out the forms and keep the money rolling in.

    When the students default, they are hounded for the rest of their lives for the money, with no bankruptcy discharge allowed but plenty of wage garnishing, so usually a moderate amount does get paid back. But mostly the scumbag salesmen, third-tier liberal arts school Ph.D. deans, and Mitt Romneys get their profits from "loans" the federal government pays out but barely repaid.

    The sleazy trade schools have so much power, nobody knows how much this costs taxpayers each year, because their many whores in Congress have inserted riders into education laws that prevent the Department of Education from compiling the data. They have also bought off the Heritage Foundation, which sells public funded for-profit education as a great wonder of the free market to conservatives in congress.

    We do know that more than half of all student loans are not actively being paid back right now, and total student debt hit more than $1 trillion not too long ago and is rising very quickly, even as all other major categories of personal debt (credit card, mortgage, auto, store-card) are well below their 2000's peaks.

    If Bernie shuts this scam down, and I think he'd like to, that would probably free up an amount pretty close to the $70 billion he wants for free college.

    Replies: @ic1000, @Mike Sylwester

    mostly the scumbag salesmen, third-tier liberal arts school Ph.D. deans, and Mitt Romneys get their profits from “loans” the federal government pays out but barely repaid

    It was odd that you decided to spoil your long comment with an inane remark about Romney.

  99. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sanders gets economic opinions from Dean Baker who Noah Smith tried to shame for being against low-skilled immigration: http://www.cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/thoughts-on-immigration-policy

  100. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha... That Ezra Klein fellow is an amusing sort of modern-day "liberal"...

    When I originally helped start the national debate over a much higher Minimum Wage with my big article a few years ago, he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage. Meanwhile, he fulsomely praised the Texas economic policies of Gov. Rick Perry, based entirely on an ultra-low-wage economy. Fortunately, other "liberals" were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/immigration-liberal-dc-pundit-denounces-minimum-wage-on-msnbc/

    Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright, but since it sounds like he's auditioning for the role of "Favorite Liberal of the Billionaire Koch Brothers" I supposed he doesn't have to be...

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman, @josh, @Retired

    Fortunately, other “liberals” were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.

    Now’s the time for a reminder from Peter Schaeffer:

    $3 trillion in healthcare costs in the US divided by 250 billion hours worked in the US = $12 per hour just to cover costs of health care.

  101. And now Sanders completes the squeeze play on the center. This is the kind of squeeze play we had to put together to get launch services privatized circa 1990: the chairman of the Black Congressional Caucus cosponsoring the legislation with the write-in Republican Congressman brother of the LDS Temple President in San Diego.

  102. @Realist
    @timothy

    "It was a shrewd way to frame it for someone running for the Democratic nomination for the presidency."

    Shrewd....not so much. Anyone with a triple digit IQ can see through it. But I guess that doesn't matter so much on the Democrat side.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

    Shrewd….not so much. Anyone with a triple digit IQ can see through it.

    Actually, I think shrewd is the right word, according to this definition: “Disposed to or marked by artful and cunning practices; tricky.”

  103. @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    ABSOLUTELY STUNNING BULL$**%!!!!

    Most folks I know Klein's age are sick of a decade plus long crappy job market in large part due to Open Borders. Outside of the SJW rent seeker set, young folks wish they had the confidence about their futures and not to mention the sex lives, their Reagan generation parents had. They are tired of being overworked, underpaid and undersexed.

    They would share Klein's opinions only if they grew up in the safe protective bubble that Ezra Klein has known all his life.

    I think Mickey Kaus has called Klein the "Juice Boxer Box Turtle".

    Look when you want to make so absolutely sure nobody challenges your world view, that you help to organize "Journolist", it says a lot about you.

    But Hey , what do I know. Perhaps Conservatism Inc, FNC and the Cuckservatives are right, 25-35 year old people today are far more concerned about defunding Planned Parenthood and protecting the sanctity of discarded aborted fetuses from medical reserach than paying for a mortgage and starting a family.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Most folks I know Klein’s age are sick of a decade plus long crappy job market in large part due to Open Borders.

    You need to widen your circle of friends.

    Most people – young and old – don’t make the connections you make. If they did, immigration would be a much larger issue in our national politics than it is.

    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Pincher Martin

    In spite of massive decades long attempts at brainwashing by the Cultural Marxist Media polls are showing that white young people are more and more identifying Republican and I doubt it is because they like Neocons and Cuckservatives.

    The dam is going to break.

    Even young college grads lucky to have good jobs that I know , tells me they are sick to death with diversity propaganda at work. They are forced to sit through multiple day Cultural Marxist guilt trips and then expected to make up the lost productive hours on the weekends and late at night.

  104. @Anonymous
    The longer Bernie talks in the clip the more it just becomes socialist gobbledygook but I am amazed to see a hard line socialist defending the nation-state. Even Ezra was stunned.

    He's a dying breed. There can't many left.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin

    The longer Bernie talks in the clip the more it just becomes socialist gobbledygook but I am amazed to see a hard line socialist defending the nation-state.

    It seems we’re willing to give leftists credit for occasional moments of clarity even when those moments are ensconced in oceans of bullsit. Case in point: Camille Pagila’s recent interview in which she likened Bill Clinton to Bill Cosby. All very well, but if you read on you start getting into Paglia’s bizarre feminist gobbIledegook. I had to bail out well before the end.

    Of course, leftists see it the other way around: they forgive the occasional deviations from the party line in Sanders and Paglia because they spend most of their time demonstrating loyalty to the cause.

  105. @BubbaJoe
    @Pincher Martin

    Possibly because their country is less focused on their own well-being. You have to be bat-sh*t crazy and/or evil to think Iraq (or, frankly, Vietnam) was in our national interest. There are two parts to the current madness- Invade the World/Invite the World. The latter gets more attention here (as it should), but the former has a longer history, and its perniciousness should not be undervalued.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Nationalism isn’t instinctive. It’s an abstraction that has to be inculcated. And our elites aren’t as committed to teaching it as they once were.

  106. @JohnnyWalker123
    Good for Sanders. Everything he said is correct and it shows he's thought deeply on this issue.

    The next step is for Sanders to outline some specific proposals for cutting legal immigration and ending all these "guest worker" programs (H1B, OPT, B1, agriculture workers, etc.).

    Replies: @Mark Green, @ben tillman, @Jus' Sayin'...

    It would be even better if Saunders voted the way he (perhaps pretends) to think. Saunders’s voting record on immigration is about as abysmal as every other establishment politician’s. And make no mistake about it, overall Saunders goes along with the dimocrat leadership despite occassional principled stands against the beast. THe dimocrat leadership gives him a lot of slack because they know that in a pinch he’ll come through for them. As far as I’m concerned he’s just another turd in that toilet bowl that calls itselfr our Congress.

  107. @Harold
    @Pincher Martin

    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state. Why should White Americans care about the local Somalian community more than they care about Somalians in Somalia? And why should they pay welfare to the local Somalians when those dollars would stretch further if given to Somalians in Somalia? None of it makes any sense.

    Racism, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and it is natural. I care what happens to White Americans even though I am a New Zealander, we both create similar sorts of societies in which we would both feel comfortable.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state.

    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.

    Racism, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and it is natural.

    I disagree. If it were natural, we wouldn’t be fighting our elites tooth and nail to close the borders and stop them from remaking the country.

    • Replies: @Harold
    @Pincher Martin


    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.
     
    True, and America always had regional differences in culture along with a feeling of being in it together. Today, the American cultural left sabotages any ability to bind people together. And America admits too many disparate people too fast to develop common feeling.

    I disagree. If it were natural, we wouldn’t be fighting our elites tooth and nail to close the borders and stop them from remaking the country.
     
    It’s natural. People have to be conditioned to be anti-racist. Most people in their formative years watch hours of television every day. The television constantly reinforces the message that good people don’t discriminate, that being racist is a wicked sin. People natural desire to be thought of, and think of themsleves as, good people, not bad, wicked people. The television has supplanted sunday school, Church sermons, parents etc. as the means people learn how to be good, what it means to be moral. And it is far more powerful than those ever were. It combines the medicine of morals with the sugar of some of the worlds most beautiful and captivating people, jokes from the worlds best comedians, story lines by talented writers etc. All that amounts to powerful conditioning.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Pincher Martin




    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state.
     
    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.

     

    Those countries-- hardly nations-- each have four official languages. What kind of a state needs an "official language" law? Not a healthy one. Not Japan. Not Denmark. Not Brazil. Not Greece. Not Somalia. Not the United States. (Yet.)

    Switzerland survives by extreme devolution, Singapore by heavy-handed progressive authoritarianism.
  108. @Kyle McKenna
    @Pincher Martin

    The twenty-somethings I know appear to believe that nationalism and patriotism are quaint relics of an earlier, more ignorant age; and possibly, vaguely racist besides.

    Self-possessed nations, like white people, present a perceived existential threat to that supra-national, tribal elite which must never be named.

    Partly as an aside, older people often experience difficulty imagining how completely young peoples' worldviews are shaped by the entertainment industry.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Anonym

    The twenty-somethings I know appear to believe that nationalism and patriotism are quaint relics of an earlier, more ignorant age; and possibly, vaguely racist besides.

    I completely agree. And that divide crosses over partisan affiliation.

    But I don’t want to exaggerate. Most young Americans still favor their country. It’s just that nationalism has gone from an overwhelming feeling in most Americans to one which is not nearly as strong as it once was. Our educational system no longer encourages it.

  109. Just a question for you anti-open borders types. What are you doing about it?

    Do you contact your representatives with your concerns? Comment on media sites to boost the signal? Attempt to convince family, friends and co-workers of the downfalls of mass immigration? What do you do, other than bitching on iSteve?

    This isn’t an attack. I’m genuinely curious as to what can be done.

    • Replies: @Numinous
    @Bayonet

    "anti-open borders" is a straw man, just like "open borders". The borders of the US are far from open. It is almost impossible for anyone not living in Mexico or Canada to get into the US unless US citizens (or their proxy, the USCIS) want them to. What people seem to be (understandably) upset about is the large number of illegal immigrants who have entered the country over the past few decades. But really, even immigrating illegally seems to be very hard now. Central Americans tried last year, but they got caught at the border IIRC. I think much of what people on these forums fight over is over a concept which they believe is propagated by the liberals, their ideological opponents. Both sides take extreme rhetorical positions, which bear little resemblance to reality.

  110. @Johnny F. Ive
    Bernie Sanders is sounding good to me so far. He understands that immigration is meant to drive down wages with trickle up economics. He is attacking the issue in a better way than Donald Trump (who seems to be the best candidate among the Republicans and the one with the most integrity). He lacks the baggage of someone on the right would have on this issue (of course they might dig something up on him). He has tied the issue solely on his opposition to the destructive impulses of neoliberalism. He also supports the Iran deal. I wonder how he will deal with our entrenched corporate welfare recipients that benefit from militarism. Surely he can find something better for them to do.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Gallo-Roman

    He lacks the baggage of someone on the right would have on this issue…

    No baggage? I think previous commenters have already covered that nicely.

    And from the article:

    Think about what people who came from Europe did to the Native Americans, the atrocities committed. Think about the horrors of slavery. Think about what we did to the Asian folks that came to build the railroads and the Asian Exclusion Act. Think about discrimination against Italians, Irish, Jews, virtually everybody else who was not like the people who were here.

    Nobody still peddling stale nation-of-immigrants butthurt is going to work for a sane immigration policy. They are what they are, and they just can’t help themselves. “Comrades, we must continue the fight against the great enemy!” (Aka the people who created this nation.)

    Unfortunately, all the other candidates in either party agree with him about who the Great Enemy is.

  111. @Pincher Martin
    I think the difference between Sanders and Klein's views are to a large degree generational. Sanders is 73 years old; Klein is 31. I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein's view than Sanders'.

    Replies: @Blah, @AnotherDad, @anonymous-antimarxist, @Anonymous, @Jus' Sayin'...

    Several years ago I led a graduate seminar on various national issues facing the United States. I provided a balanced reading list on the subject touching on all the salient issues. There were a number of foreign students in the class but the majority were native-born whites. This was the only seminar session that became so heated that I had to intervene and calm things down. When young Americans just entering the work force are provided with balanced information on immigration issues they tend to jump to the conclusion that they are being screwed over royally by those who are currently running the country.

  112. @Stealth
    @Pincher Martin

    "No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American’s youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique."

    Every country is special and unique. And America has certainly been blessed in the sense of being fortunate. However, the idea that America is entitled to push the rest of the world around has caused a hell of a lot of trouble.

    However, you don't have to believe that America is better in God's sight than the rest of the world to love the country as your homeland and desire to protect it from throngs of foreigners who will destroy our quality of life.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Every country is special and unique.

    Spoken like a young American.

    And America has certainly been blessed in the sense of being fortunate. However, the idea that America is entitled to push the rest of the world around has caused a hell of a lot of trouble.

    You misunderstand. This has nothing to do with an aggressive and assertive foreign policy. American exceptionalism was a source of pride among Americans even before the U.S took center stage in world politics.

    However, you don’t have to believe that America is better in God’s sight than the rest of the world to love the country as your homeland and desire to protect it from throngs of foreigners who will destroy our quality of life.

    In theory, you don’t. But in practice that’s probably the way it works.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Pincher Martin

    Really? I spoke to quite a few Polish people who were under no illusions that Poland was #1 in anything, but were quite emphatic about their desire to save their homeland from, say, Russia.

    A country doesn't have to be #1 in anything to have a sense of pride. We were lucky in that we were for a while, but smaller and/or less impressive countries can still have a sense of pride and nationalism--they tend to see it as defending their country against all odds, carving out a place for their people, etc.

  113. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha... That Ezra Klein fellow is an amusing sort of modern-day "liberal"...

    When I originally helped start the national debate over a much higher Minimum Wage with my big article a few years ago, he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage. Meanwhile, he fulsomely praised the Texas economic policies of Gov. Rick Perry, based entirely on an ultra-low-wage economy. Fortunately, other "liberals" were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/immigration-liberal-dc-pundit-denounces-minimum-wage-on-msnbc/

    Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright, but since it sounds like he's auditioning for the role of "Favorite Liberal of the Billionaire Koch Brothers" I supposed he doesn't have to be...

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman, @josh, @Retired

    “Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright”

    This has always been what irked me. Who is this dweeb? He seems like such a nothing, but he just kept getting praised and promoted. Was it because he is so er intellectually malleable?

  114. There is no end to this massive immigration issue:

    “The federal government has signed agreements with three foreign countries — Mexico, Ecuador and the Philippines — to establish outreach programs to teach immigrants their rights to engage in labor organizing in the U.S.
    The agreements do not distinguish between those who entered legally or illegally. They are part of a broader effort by the National Labor Relations Board to get immigrants involved in union activism.
    The board has said the law’s protections for workers engaged in union organizing extend even to people who are not legally authorized to work in the U.S. An employer who fires an illegal immigrant worker — which is required under federal immigration law — can be sanctioned by the board if it decides the worker’s union activism was the real reason for the dismissal.
    In the documents, the countries’ foreign consulates agree to help locate foreign nationals living in the U.S. “who might aid the NLRB in investigations, trials or compliance matters” involving businesses and to develop a system for the consulates to refer complaints from foreign workers to the board’s regional offices.
    Last month, Griffin instituted a new policy in which the board will “facilitate” obtaining visas for illegal immigrants if their status impedes it from pursuing a labor violation case against a business. The policy gives illegal immigrants living in the U.S. a strong incentive to engage in labor activism, because doing so will make employers reluctant to fire them and potentially get them a visa, and therefore legal status, if they are fired.”

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/u.s.-signed-agreement-with-mexico-to-teach-immigrants-to-unionize/article/2562215

    No relief in the courts…

    “…an Arizona federal judge blasted a state law that stretched the crime of identity theft to include everyone from forgers to people simply seeking employment without valid documentation.”

    “U.S. District Judge David G. Campbell in Phoenix ordered an immediate halt to the state’s enforcement of identity theft laws that penalize immigrants in the country illegally for seeking employment. Campbell said the Arizona law is at odds with corresponding federal statutes.”

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-arizona-immigrants-sheriff-20150105-story.html

  115. Sanders views were very typical of the Pre-Clinton administration left in the US, the exceptions being internationalist communists and liberation theologists. They understood that you could not increase/maintain a country’s living standards by allowing cheap labor to continually pour in uncontrolled. Big business was the main supporter of illegal immigration back then.

    Gore Vidal got pilloried by surprised liberals for espousing similar views several years back. It’s a foregone conclusion by post-modern leftists that all “right thinking” people are in a agreement with their globalist views, and they are shocked when someone in their ranks takes a logical and principled opposing position.

  116. @Pincher Martin
    @Harold


    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state.
     
    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.

    Racism, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and it is natural.
     
    I disagree. If it were natural, we wouldn't be fighting our elites tooth and nail to close the borders and stop them from remaking the country.

    Replies: @Harold, @Reg Cæsar

    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.

    True, and America always had regional differences in culture along with a feeling of being in it together. Today, the American cultural left sabotages any ability to bind people together. And America admits too many disparate people too fast to develop common feeling.

    I disagree. If it were natural, we wouldn’t be fighting our elites tooth and nail to close the borders and stop them from remaking the country.

    It’s natural. People have to be conditioned to be anti-racist. Most people in their formative years watch hours of television every day. The television constantly reinforces the message that good people don’t discriminate, that being racist is a wicked sin. People natural desire to be thought of, and think of themsleves as, good people, not bad, wicked people. The television has supplanted sunday school, Church sermons, parents etc. as the means people learn how to be good, what it means to be moral. And it is far more powerful than those ever were. It combines the medicine of morals with the sugar of some of the worlds most beautiful and captivating people, jokes from the worlds best comedians, story lines by talented writers etc. All that amounts to powerful conditioning.

  117. @anon
    @anonymous-antimarxist

    "JSSJW"

    Jewish Socialist Social Justice Warrior?

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

    You are brilliant!!!

  118. @Mr. Anon
    @The Z Blog

    "The Z Blog says:

    National Review had their house tough guy call Sanders a crypto-Nazi the other day: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421369/bernie-sanders-national-socialism

    Williamson seems to have slipped a gear or popped a spring of late. He used to be one the least silly pajama boys at NR, but lately he is just plain nuts."

    An excellent example of argumentum ad hitlerum. If you don't like a guy, he must be a nazi, even if he is an old fashioned jewish socialist.

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @ben tillman, @The Z Blog

    The National Review has really just become total crap.

    It started going down hill at the end of Buckley’s life. Like a lot of successful men, he could not tolerate the idea of someone succeeding him so he sabotaged anyone with talent slated to be his successor. The result was he handed the thing off to a toady with nothing in the way of intellectual skills. The managing editor now is a flamboyant homosexualist who ran off Mark Steyn for being insufficiently enthusiastic for gay marriage.

    I wonder if they are suffering financially. The amount of content has declined significantly of late. They have been relying on kids to create content for their site, but even that has slacked off.

  119. @Pincher Martin
    @Anonymous

    No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American's youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique.

    I don't think Bernie Sanders is any more practical than Ezra Klein. Sanders just grew up in an era when even many American leftists took nationalism for granted in the same sort of way that Americans took for granted that they ought to love their mothers.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Stealth, @Mr. Anon

    “No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American’s youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique.”

    The abandonment of American Exceptionalism is a necessary precursor to the development of a healthy american nationalism. A real patriot doesn’t love his country because his country is special, blessed, or unique; he loves it because it is his, because it is the land of his forefathers.

    American nationalism as it is expressed by mainstream conservatives is an anti-nationalism – a loyalty not to America the country, but rather to America the idea, the proposition.

    Not that young people today are thinking along those lines.

    • Replies: @Olorin
    @Mr. Anon

    > A real patriot doesn’t love his country because his country is special, blessed, or unique; he loves it because it is his, because it is the land of his forefathers.

    Exactly.

    And this is precisely why open borders is de rigueur for the globalizer class: it guarantees that love of country and patriotism will die out and squirmaggoty competition for the corpse of nations will ensue. For a price, Ugarte, for a price.

    I was taken out to supper to a "mediterranean" restaurant by some business colleagues in a city I visit a few times a year. Turned out it was actually Turkish. Owner came around to the tables to meet everyone; it's a new place. Nice touch, but as he talked of this and that it became clear that in his mind the US is simply a place he exploits to send money back to "his country." I.e. Turkey.

    My ancestors came to the US nearly 400 years ago. From the get go they redefined themselves as Americans, devoted to the new land and later the republic and Constitution. "Our country" is not where we came from, but what we made here. This is a direct threat to free trade open borders diversitopian globalizers and their bankster over lords. Guys like Turkish Restaurant Guy are pawns in the process. They have no intention of this ever being their country. They go wherever the banksters promise to lend them money. They clamp on serf chains as naturally as their genome allows.

  120. Sanders’ rhetoric doesnt’ match his voting record. He’s supported every version of immigration “reform” that the Bushies and Dems have tried ramming through. Went along with the DREAM Act. Just as with every socialist, he is lying every time his mouth moves.

  121. @Kyle McKenna
    @Pincher Martin

    The twenty-somethings I know appear to believe that nationalism and patriotism are quaint relics of an earlier, more ignorant age; and possibly, vaguely racist besides.

    Self-possessed nations, like white people, present a perceived existential threat to that supra-national, tribal elite which must never be named.

    Partly as an aside, older people often experience difficulty imagining how completely young peoples' worldviews are shaped by the entertainment industry.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Anonym

    All you have to do is be around some of them who are completely consumed by media/entertainment. Their views change in response to Celeb views like a game of Simon Says. Simon says Caitlyn is a woman!

  122. @rod1963
    @anonymous-antimarxist

    Sanders cannot be trusted. There is no track record of him defending secure borders or trying to stop the H1-B visa program.

    He's just saying it to knock Webb out the way and neutralize Trump's attraction among white blue collar democrats. The Democrats can't afford to lose them to Trump, because they aren't going to get the black turnout that Obama got.

    As soon as he gets the nomination he'll dump it.

    Until then it will be a hammer to thump Hillary with.

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

    Sanders is too much of a “hot mess” to threaten the Sea Hag’s hold on the nomination. Sanders appeals to the aging SWPL baby boomer and older lefties. Break out the tie dye for Christ sakes

    The young professional SJW set mocks Sanders even now and know that those paying their bills, Soros and company, will only keep him around as long as he keeps sucking up the populist air and media exposure that a Jim Webb needs.

    More importantly there is zero institutional Democratic party support for Sanders. Webb would have at least have some appeal to the very very last of the moderate and blue collar white Democratic party rank and file.

    The second Sanders is not needed, Soros will crush him less he throws in the towel and backs Hilary.

    Sanders has about the same chance another flash in the pan Mike Pence(The Cuckservative’s Cuckservative) had back in April of getting the Republican nomination.

  123. @Pincher Martin
    @anonymous-antimarxist


    Most folks I know Klein’s age are sick of a decade plus long crappy job market in large part due to Open Borders.
     
    You need to widen your circle of friends.

    Most people - young and old - don't make the connections you make. If they did, immigration would be a much larger issue in our national politics than it is.

    Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

    In spite of massive decades long attempts at brainwashing by the Cultural Marxist Media polls are showing that white young people are more and more identifying Republican and I doubt it is because they like Neocons and Cuckservatives.

    The dam is going to break.

    Even young college grads lucky to have good jobs that I know , tells me they are sick to death with diversity propaganda at work. They are forced to sit through multiple day Cultural Marxist guilt trips and then expected to make up the lost productive hours on the weekends and late at night.

  124. SFG says:
    @Pincher Martin
    @Stealth


    Every country is special and unique.
     
    Spoken like a young American.

    And America has certainly been blessed in the sense of being fortunate. However, the idea that America is entitled to push the rest of the world around has caused a hell of a lot of trouble.
     
    You misunderstand. This has nothing to do with an aggressive and assertive foreign policy. American exceptionalism was a source of pride among Americans even before the U.S took center stage in world politics.

    However, you don’t have to believe that America is better in God’s sight than the rest of the world to love the country as your homeland and desire to protect it from throngs of foreigners who will destroy our quality of life.
     
    In theory, you don't. But in practice that's probably the way it works.

    Replies: @SFG

    Really? I spoke to quite a few Polish people who were under no illusions that Poland was #1 in anything, but were quite emphatic about their desire to save their homeland from, say, Russia.

    A country doesn’t have to be #1 in anything to have a sense of pride. We were lucky in that we were for a while, but smaller and/or less impressive countries can still have a sense of pride and nationalism–they tend to see it as defending their country against all odds, carving out a place for their people, etc.

  125. @Massimo Heitor
    If Jeb runs against Sanders, Steve Sailer + Coulter + Trump's entire fanbase becomes hard line Democrat voters and Koch bashers.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @Bill

    “If Jeb runs against Sanders, Steve Sailer + Coulter + Trump’s entire fanbase becomes hard line Democrat voters and Koch bashers.”

    Don’t kid yourself. There are a lot of people who read this blog, who would no more vote for Bernie Sanders (or anyone else who didn’t have a “R” next to their name), than they would join ISIS.

    But, congratulations on not being one of them! I, for one, can swallow a lot of “socialism,” if secure borders are part of the package. Denmark in the 1970s may have been too leftist, but it was still a damn nice place to live, compared to most of the urban USA these days. And isn’t that the main goal ie., having a nice place for our people to flourish?

  126. Bernie’s an old guy, he just accidentally slipped for a few moments into pre-2000 liberalism. Same way I wouldn’t be surprised if he got caught in a subtle pronoun usage error, when referring to an LGBT person.

    You can see that he moved quickly to change the subject.

  127. @Hannah Katz
    Bernie sounds pretty good... so far. Now, how shall we pay for free college? How shall we pay $15 an hour to people that do not make nearly that much for the business owner by their labor because they have no skills and a bad attitude? The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money...

    Replies: @Drapetomaniac, @Difference Maker, @Nathan Wartooth, @AshTon

    Having tax payers pay for college is not a solution.

    Forcing public colleges to allow students to go for free but charge a percentage of their for 10-15 years would fix colleges giving out worthless degrees since they are invested in their students success and it would force colleges to lobby for better wages since it influences their bottom line.

    • Replies: @Nathan Wartooth
    @Nathan Wartooth

    It should be their income for 10-15 years

  128. @e
    Now, if Bernie had just said, "The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love" lower wages, I'd be okay with that--showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn't, however.

    Replies: @timothy, @Jesse, @Nathan Wartooth, @IBC, @Ash

    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    It has everything to do with what the interviewer was talking about.

    The elite has figured out that you can’t fix South America, Africa or the Middle East. They are poor and will always be poor. So they don’t do the elites much good since they don’t have money to spend. But like the interviewer said, a poor person in the US or the UK is 100x better off financially than the poor in a third world country.

    So the solution is to move them to a first world country so even in the worst case scenario they get on welfare they will have more money to spend. It’s just another example of privatizing profits and socializing costs.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren’t clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Nathan Wartooth


    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren’t clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.
     
    Actually, I think most people here are over-thinking the whole issue, with regard to Zuckerberg and most of his peers...

    Let's step back a bit. Earlier, I pointed out that Ezra Klein fellow seemed like a total ignoramus, who three or four years ago used to ridicule the notion of a high minimum wage but now (I'm sure) believes it's the most important progressive issue in the world. Basically, all he does is vaguely repeat what all the other people he knows tend to say about things.

    Now consider Zuckerberg. He's almost exactly the same age as Klein, but while Klein actually graduated college, Zuckerberg dropped out after his freshman year. I'd guess he's much smarter than Klein, but probably has focused all his attention on business/software issues and almost none on public policy. So he probably makes Klein look like a towering font of policy expertise.

    To the extent that Zuckerberg wants to support the right thing in public policy, he probably follows the leads of the wisest policy experts he knows...like that Klein fellow, whom the MSM has annointed as some sort of brilliant progressive analyst. My guess is that Zuckerberg hires "advisors" roughly his own age, and they take their lead from Klein and people like him Tweeting out their inanities on Vox.com.

    I think it's a little silly to believe that Zuckerberg is some brilliant evil political genius, manipulating our government immigration policies to achieve some sort of long-term nefarious transformation of society.

    My guess is that the same thing is true of most of the other billionaires who spend lots of money on public policy causes, even the ones who are much older, have had more experience of the world, and actually graduated college.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @Reg Cæsar, @Harry Baldwin

  129. I grew up one mile from Bernie’s house in Burlington. I saw him all the time at the grocery store. He lives in a nice, two story single family house, about a 5 minute walk from Lake Champlain. That is, middle/upper middle class. He really is a man of the people.

  130. @anonymous-antimarxist
    @Pincher Martin


    I bet most educated Americans in their twenties and thirties lean more to Klein’s view than Sanders’.
     
    ABSOLUTELY STUNNING BULL$**%!!!!

    Most folks I know Klein's age are sick of a decade plus long crappy job market in large part due to Open Borders. Outside of the SJW rent seeker set, young folks wish they had the confidence about their futures and not to mention the sex lives, their Reagan generation parents had. They are tired of being overworked, underpaid and undersexed.

    They would share Klein's opinions only if they grew up in the safe protective bubble that Ezra Klein has known all his life.

    I think Mickey Kaus has called Klein the "Juice Boxer Box Turtle".

    Look when you want to make so absolutely sure nobody challenges your world view, that you help to organize "Journolist", it says a lot about you.

    But Hey , what do I know. Perhaps Conservatism Inc, FNC and the Cuckservatives are right, 25-35 year old people today are far more concerned about defunding Planned Parenthood and protecting the sanctity of discarded aborted fetuses from medical reserach than paying for a mortgage and starting a family.

    Replies: @Pincher Martin, @Kevin O'Keeffe

    “But Hey , what do I know. Perhaps Conservatism Inc, FNC and the Cuckservatives are right, 25-35 year old people today are far more concerned about defunding Planned Parenthood and protecting the sanctity of discarded aborted fetuses from medical reserach than paying for a mortgage and starting a family.”

    Its all about defunding the Import/Export bank, these days. I made the mistake of disparaging Boehner’s latest policy initiative, the other night at a bar, and I got jumped on my way out. Those completely typical, 20something neocon grad students carved the words “CUCKSERVATISM FOREVER” into my forehead, oddly.

  131. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don’t believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.

    WTF is this asshole talking about? Right-wingers all want to cl-…

    *AHEM* What I mean to say is, yes. Yes, as a right-winger I’d love to see America adopt an open-borders policy. Please do not throw me into the Briar Patch of closed borders. That would devastate me, and most right-wingers. It would drive the suicide rate among right-wingers through the roof. So please don’t do that. I don’t think the Right could survive that.

    That’s why you’re not a politician. It was a shrewd way to frame it for someone running for the Democratic nomination for the presidency.

    In the loony-tunes world of American politics, maybe. Anyone with any brains at all knows it’s blatant nonsense, that the only resistance to open borders in America comes from the Right. But I guess you don’t need to have any brains at all to be a leftist or vote in America today.

    This is a very deceptive interview. In fact, Bernie Sanders received a grade of ‘F-’ by the immigration watch group, NumbersUSA.

    Sanders is an open borders liberal who does not support deportation and advocates for ‘immigration reform’ via a ‘pathway to citizenship’ for people who entered the US illegally.

    He’s a Jewish Socialist, FFS. Of course he’s for open borders.

    Never mind the Great White Defendant. There is the Great White Evil Hunter.

    Every year, countless animals are killed by non-white poachers in Africa and Asia, yet this white guy is the focus of all the vitriol.

    Hunting? Those are animals. Every year in Africa, countless BLACK PEOPLE are killed by BLACK PEOPLE in the most gruesome of ways. There’s cannibalism, mass murder, torture, off-the-charts gov’t corruption, military dictatorship, voodoo harvesting of body parts, mass kidnapping of children for human trafficking, endemic slavery, child soldiers, mutilation of women, etc. Zimbabwe is a cesspool where the reigning dictatorship murdered or ran off the white productive class because black stupidity (and is now rumbling about asking YT back).

    Sanders seems to (belatedly) be coming to the realization that the sort of social democracy he favors is incompatible with open borders.

    Sarcasm, or shocking naivete? I can’t tell.

    You people sure are cheap dates.

    Yyyyeah.

    Bernie has clearly decided to take a page from Trump and try the revolutionary tactic of taking the lead in the polls by promising to give the people of the United States what they want. But with Bernie, it’s obviously a complete lie.

    Did someone on Sanders staff realize that Trump had something going for him with the anti-immigration tilt or what?

    Yes. Obviously, yes.

    The US started with a small, not very intrusive, government. How’s that working out?

    It would be interesting to see how things would have progressed if the Constitution had started out with a well-written, hard limit on the size of the federal gov’t, (low) limits on the total tax burden, etc.

    Racism is bad; self-defense is never bad; opposition to immigration is self-defense; therefore opposition to immigration can never be racism.

    I have highlighted where the enemy will mass their attack.

  132. F*ck Donald Trump! I’m voting for Bernie Sanders!

  133. Senator Sanders talks like Jeff Sessions, but he votes like Chuck Schumer.

  134. @Wilkey
    Bernie Sanders: "Open borders? No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal...Of course. That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States..."

    Sanders proved that open borders are a right-wing idea by voting for a massive amnesty/doubling of legal immigration right along with 100% of the senators who caucus with the Democrats. A disturbing number of Rethuglicans also voted for that bill, but it was still less than a third of them.

    If there's some distinction between "open borders" and essentially allowing every person who comes here illegally to stay, Sen. Sanders will have to explain it.

    Replies: @Kevin O'Keeffe

    “If there’s some distinction between “open borders” and essentially allowing every person who comes here illegally to stay, Sen. Sanders will have to explain it.”

    Its actually quite easy to explain; there aren’t going to be mass deportations of tens of millions of people. You and I might wish that there would be, but in the real world, we know the political will doesn’t exist for that to actually happen. Bernie claims he wants to prevent any more from coming. If he’s being truthful (always a big “if,” where politicians are concerned), that would still constitute a HUGE difference from Hillary Clinton, who wants to increase immigration from the Third World, and Jeb Bush, who actually wants to merge the USA and Mexico into a single society (presumably along with Guatemala, and maybe Haiti too, for all I know).

    Yes, I’d rather elected President Jared Taylor, and see Operation Wetback 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that isn’t going to happen. Everyone knows it, so why set up the good to be merely an enemy of the perfect?

    • Replies: @leftist conservative
    @Kevin O'Keeffe


    Yes, I’d rather elected President Jared Taylor, and see Operation Wetback 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that isn’t going to happen. Everyone knows it, so why set up the good to be merely an enemy of the perfect?
     
    Kevin, you and I think so much alike. I keep coming back to this blogpost wondering when I was going to see someone write "the best is ever the enemy of the good."

    Finally, someone did.

    Actually, in trump and sanders, we have two of the best major candidates I can recall. Neither one is perfect. But the main thing is that even if they doing nothing worthwhile if actually elected, their rhetoric is rare and has power.

    Trump and Sanders are not the best possible candidates, but they are good.

    Webb aint bad, either, but he is going nowhere so far.
    , @Wilkey
    @Kevin O'Keeffe

    There don't need to be mass deportations. There needs to be enforcement of the law. Deny them drivers licenses. Deny them welfare benefits. Deny their kids access to public schools (aka "free daycare"). Heavily fine any employer caught hiring them.

    Our government manages to be quite effective and efficient when it wants to be. Odd that is supposedly can't be when it comes to securing our borders.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

  135. @Hannah Katz
    Bernie sounds pretty good... so far. Now, how shall we pay for free college? How shall we pay $15 an hour to people that do not make nearly that much for the business owner by their labor because they have no skills and a bad attitude? The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money...

    Replies: @Drapetomaniac, @Difference Maker, @Nathan Wartooth, @AshTon

    The UK has a Shortage Occupations List for in-demand occupations which visas are more easily available. Mainly engineering and healthcare. I think the U.S. H-1B system is similar.

    Bernie’s “free education” should be based on similar criteria – ie you’ll get free education if you are intellectually able AND you are studying something which will improve the economy and fill an employment gap. Engineering, not Feminist Film Theory.

    Then you wouldn’t get the awful situation of native workers actually training their replacement immigrant workers.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @AshTon

    There's an "employment gap"?

  136. @Nathan Wartooth
    @Hannah Katz

    Having tax payers pay for college is not a solution.

    Forcing public colleges to allow students to go for free but charge a percentage of their for 10-15 years would fix colleges giving out worthless degrees since they are invested in their students success and it would force colleges to lobby for better wages since it influences their bottom line.

    Replies: @Nathan Wartooth

    It should be their income for 10-15 years

  137. Immigrants are great for America! Look at this. One single immigrant doctor in New York created MILLIONS in economic activity on his own!

    http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/doctor-made-800000-selling-xanax-before-bust-cops/

    Just think what a million more of these fine Chinese immigrants can do!

  138. “I believe we should raise the minimum wage to at least 15 bucks an hour so people in this county are not living in poverty.”

    But why would you stop there? If you make the minimum wage $1000 an hour, everyone can live in mansions and have yachts. Poverty problem solved!

  139. @SFG
    @Mark Green

    Yeah, I noticed that. Funny thing for him to go anti-immigration just as he's running for the Democratic nomination. Maybe he's trying to do the Jim Webb go-for-the-white-working-class thing without anyone noticing that's what he's doing?

    He is Jewish, but I doubt those guys care anymore (unless they're alt-righters).

    Replies: @bigred2000

    I don’t think the Bern is an F on immigration. He DID vote against the 2007 amnesty Bill before voting for the 2013 version. And he was not enthusiastic about 2013. One of the last yes votes to come aboard.

    There are still some culturally populist democrats left. Does he know that he could maneuver to Hillary’s right on immigration in the primaries, or is he just a blathering old man? Hard to tell.

    I do think he’d be much less likely to sign amnesty than Jeb.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @bigred2000

    I unfortunately don't think you're right about that--he'll be pressured by his party and see no point in aggravating Latinos. Jeb might have to worry about his right flank.

    I'm going with 'blathering old man', but old guys can surprise you--he might see an odd opening and think he can make a play for the white working class. He's a little too hippy-dippy for them, but if he can get the unions behind him in the general...

  140. @ben tillman
    @stillCARealist


    Say what? If the choice is between Commie Lib #1 and Commie Lib #2, you leave it blank.
     
    I've voted for Perot, Buchanan, Baldwin, and -- yes -- Ralph Nader.

    Replies: @Ivy, @Truth

    Did you vote for John Anderson to make it a straight flush?

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    @Ivy


    Did you vote for John Anderson to make it a straight flush?
     
    Was too young, but I would have!
  141. @Bayonet
    Just a question for you anti-open borders types. What are you doing about it?

    Do you contact your representatives with your concerns? Comment on media sites to boost the signal? Attempt to convince family, friends and co-workers of the downfalls of mass immigration? What do you do, other than bitching on iSteve?

    This isn't an attack. I'm genuinely curious as to what can be done.

    Replies: @Numinous

    “anti-open borders” is a straw man, just like “open borders”. The borders of the US are far from open. It is almost impossible for anyone not living in Mexico or Canada to get into the US unless US citizens (or their proxy, the USCIS) want them to. What people seem to be (understandably) upset about is the large number of illegal immigrants who have entered the country over the past few decades. But really, even immigrating illegally seems to be very hard now. Central Americans tried last year, but they got caught at the border IIRC. I think much of what people on these forums fight over is over a concept which they believe is propagated by the liberals, their ideological opponents. Both sides take extreme rhetorical positions, which bear little resemblance to reality.

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  143. @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Wilkey

    "If there’s some distinction between “open borders” and essentially allowing every person who comes here illegally to stay, Sen. Sanders will have to explain it."

    Its actually quite easy to explain; there aren't going to be mass deportations of tens of millions of people. You and I might wish that there would be, but in the real world, we know the political will doesn't exist for that to actually happen. Bernie claims he wants to prevent any more from coming. If he's being truthful (always a big "if," where politicians are concerned), that would still constitute a HUGE difference from Hillary Clinton, who wants to increase immigration from the Third World, and Jeb Bush, who actually wants to merge the USA and Mexico into a single society (presumably along with Guatemala, and maybe Haiti too, for all I know).

    Yes, I'd rather elected President Jared Taylor, and see Operation Wetback 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that isn't going to happen. Everyone knows it, so why set up the good to be merely an enemy of the perfect?

    Replies: @leftist conservative, @Wilkey

    Yes, I’d rather elected President Jared Taylor, and see Operation Wetback 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that isn’t going to happen. Everyone knows it, so why set up the good to be merely an enemy of the perfect?

    Kevin, you and I think so much alike. I keep coming back to this blogpost wondering when I was going to see someone write “the best is ever the enemy of the good.”

    Finally, someone did.

    Actually, in trump and sanders, we have two of the best major candidates I can recall. Neither one is perfect. But the main thing is that even if they doing nothing worthwhile if actually elected, their rhetoric is rare and has power.

    Trump and Sanders are not the best possible candidates, but they are good.

    Webb aint bad, either, but he is going nowhere so far.

  144. SFG says:
    @bigred2000
    @SFG

    I don't think the Bern is an F on immigration. He DID vote against the 2007 amnesty Bill before voting for the 2013 version. And he was not enthusiastic about 2013. One of the last yes votes to come aboard.

    There are still some culturally populist democrats left. Does he know that he could maneuver to Hillary's right on immigration in the primaries, or is he just a blathering old man? Hard to tell.

    I do think he'd be much less likely to sign amnesty than Jeb.

    Replies: @SFG

    I unfortunately don’t think you’re right about that–he’ll be pressured by his party and see no point in aggravating Latinos. Jeb might have to worry about his right flank.

    I’m going with ‘blathering old man’, but old guys can surprise you–he might see an odd opening and think he can make a play for the white working class. He’s a little too hippy-dippy for them, but if he can get the unions behind him in the general…

  145. Free trade with the impoverished masses of East Asia has the same potential to impoverish American workers as does open borders.

    The major argument against open borders is criticism of multiculturalism. That argument is not relevant to free trade.

    I support free trade and I don’t see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers. Individuals may lose out by having to cut wage prices which may cost jobs, but often it creates jobs too. And I’m skeptical that the suffering caused by job loss may be exaggerated. The net effect seems strongly positive for almost everyone.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Massimo Heitor


    The major argument against open borders is criticism of multiculturalism. That argument is not relevant to free trade.
     
    Nope, that's one of the arguments and would be enough on its own if the media told the truth about the consequences (crime etc).

    The economic argument is that the thirty years of bankster propaganda that mass immigration would increase prosperity is and always was a lie. We've had the mass immigration so where's the prosperity?

    The simple reality is by driving down wages and increasing housing costs mass immigration squeezes discretionary income and is therefore obviously deflationary and we can see the effects everywhere - California being the prime example.

    The reason it is happening despite being obviously deflationary is it makes oligarchs richer and the oligarchs own all the politicians and media.

    Now bankster shills can no longer convincingly lie that bankster policies are good for the original citizens of the Western countries they are spinning it as net good globally but that's a lie too because...

    I support free trade and I don’t see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers.
     
    Wrong.

    The sum of apparent win only seems to outweigh the sum of apparent loss because demand in the West has been artificially maintained through debt.

    Take the debt away and the real undisguised collapse in demand caused by off-shoring will suddenly become evident *and* the people currently supplying that demand will no longer have an export market.

    (What globalization has done under the hood is exactly the same as mass immigration i.e. reduced the total level of non-subsistence demand - but it's currently disguised by debt.)
    , @Luke Lea
    @Massimo Heitor

    "I support free trade and I don’t see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers."

    Then explain how average real hourly wages have been stagnant or declining even as GDP per capita is rising. This is only possible if a small number of winners, whose income is derived from capital, are getting most of the gains. I believe the national income statistics as well as the logic supports this conclusion. Hope you do a rethink.

    , @Luke Lea
    @Massimo Heitor

    "I support free trade and I don’t see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers."

    Then explain how average real hourly wages have been stagnant or declining even as GDP per capita is rising. This is only possible if a small number of winners, whose income is derived from capital, are getting most of the gain, and then some. I.e. the economic pie is being redistributed. It is a bigger pie thanks to trade but ordinary workers' shares are smaller not only relatively but absolutely. I believe the national income statistics as well as logic supports this conclusion. As does modern H-O trade theory. Hope you do a rethink. World Trade and Payments by Caves and Jones is the classic teaching text.

  146. @JerseyGuy
    What's shocking is that Ezra Klein is supposed to be a mainstream "American" journalist and policy wonk for American interests and he is explicitly saying that America shouldn't actually be for Americans. Absolutely insane!

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Whiskey, @San Fernando Curt, @24AheadDotCom

    Insane for Americans making less than six figures a year, yes. But insane for Klein and his ilk? Hardly. Over and over, throughout Western mainstream media, we hear the same call to do away with borders, to increase our “responsibility” to the world’s poor, to make them “richer”. Klein and his ilk care nothing for kulak Americans. Not only are our elites filled with milk of human kindness for the world’s portable vibrants (as long as it suits their interest), they’re adamant about importing a low-wage workforce to benefit themselves. And they are committed to destroying “legacy” America, which they equate with Hitler, Nazis, Palestinians, Cossacks, Klansmen, Confederates, white gentile straight men, and all the other riotous devils of their neurotic, stagnant imagination. I don’t think what emerges will be anything like the multicultural pastorale of their fever dreams, and it may very well curl to bite them in two. That would be wondrous. But, of course, too late for the rest of us, as well.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @San Fernando Curt

    "And they are committed to destroying “legacy” America, which they equate with Hitler, Nazis, Palestinians,"

    You must be living in a cave because Palestinians are seen in a positive light among Liberal Social Justice Warrior college students. Nobody will boo and heckle you if you bring a Palestinian flag to the UC Berkeley campus for example. They hate pro-Israel Neo Cons just as much as you do. They are anti-war in the Middle East but pro-DIEversity America is a nation of immigrants and we need more sanctuary cities.

    They don't want America fighting wars for Israel but at the same they also do not want America to remain a predominantly White country.

  147. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Massimo Heitor

    Free trade with the impoverished masses of East Asia has the same potential to impoverish American workers as does open borders.
     
    The major argument against open borders is criticism of multiculturalism. That argument is not relevant to free trade.

    I support free trade and I don't see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers. Individuals may lose out by having to cut wage prices which may cost jobs, but often it creates jobs too. And I'm skeptical that the suffering caused by job loss may be exaggerated. The net effect seems strongly positive for almost everyone.

    Replies: @anon, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea

    The major argument against open borders is criticism of multiculturalism. That argument is not relevant to free trade.

    Nope, that’s one of the arguments and would be enough on its own if the media told the truth about the consequences (crime etc).

    The economic argument is that the thirty years of bankster propaganda that mass immigration would increase prosperity is and always was a lie. We’ve had the mass immigration so where’s the prosperity?

    The simple reality is by driving down wages and increasing housing costs mass immigration squeezes discretionary income and is therefore obviously deflationary and we can see the effects everywhere – California being the prime example.

    The reason it is happening despite being obviously deflationary is it makes oligarchs richer and the oligarchs own all the politicians and media.

    Now bankster shills can no longer convincingly lie that bankster policies are good for the original citizens of the Western countries they are spinning it as net good globally but that’s a lie too because…

    I support free trade and I don’t see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers.

    Wrong.

    The sum of apparent win only seems to outweigh the sum of apparent loss because demand in the West has been artificially maintained through debt.

    Take the debt away and the real undisguised collapse in demand caused by off-shoring will suddenly become evident *and* the people currently supplying that demand will no longer have an export market.

    (What globalization has done under the hood is exactly the same as mass immigration i.e. reduced the total level of non-subsistence demand – but it’s currently disguised by debt.)

  148. This part of the interview might be genuine but given the context – a campaign including both Trump and Webb – it’s just as likely they arranged for Klein to pitch him a softball to hit.

  149. I agree about the toady part, but I find it hard to believe that WFB envisioned the accommodations with current society that the toady has made.

    I haven’t followed NR in a while. I am surprised to hear Steyn is gone. When I went on one of the NR cruises a few years ago, it seemed like most of the people there came specifically to see him.

    Toady had just gotten married before that cruise. I suspect Mrs. Toady is a blue-state liberal, so maybe she and her circle have influenced the direction of things since then.

  150. @Kevin O'Keeffe
    @Wilkey

    "If there’s some distinction between “open borders” and essentially allowing every person who comes here illegally to stay, Sen. Sanders will have to explain it."

    Its actually quite easy to explain; there aren't going to be mass deportations of tens of millions of people. You and I might wish that there would be, but in the real world, we know the political will doesn't exist for that to actually happen. Bernie claims he wants to prevent any more from coming. If he's being truthful (always a big "if," where politicians are concerned), that would still constitute a HUGE difference from Hillary Clinton, who wants to increase immigration from the Third World, and Jeb Bush, who actually wants to merge the USA and Mexico into a single society (presumably along with Guatemala, and maybe Haiti too, for all I know).

    Yes, I'd rather elected President Jared Taylor, and see Operation Wetback 2: Electric Boogaloo, but that isn't going to happen. Everyone knows it, so why set up the good to be merely an enemy of the perfect?

    Replies: @leftist conservative, @Wilkey

    There don’t need to be mass deportations. There needs to be enforcement of the law. Deny them drivers licenses. Deny them welfare benefits. Deny their kids access to public schools (aka “free daycare”). Heavily fine any employer caught hiring them.

    Our government manages to be quite effective and efficient when it wants to be. Odd that is supposedly can’t be when it comes to securing our borders.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @Wilkey

    @Kevin O'Keeffe
    There don’t need to be mass deportations. There needs to be enforcement of the law. Deny them drivers licenses. Deny them welfare benefits. Deny their kids access to public schools (aka “free daycare”).

    Better yet, have a biometric national ID required for employment, to cash a check or use a credit card. If you make it next to impossible to live and work in this society without a foolproof form of ID illegals will voluntarily return to their native lands. Such a national ID is, it seems to me, the only realistic way to enforce our immigration laws. would be much more effective than a fence or a wall. We have the technology to do it right now, quickly, at minimal cost. If this were war time inside of two years. So maybe we should declare war against illegal immigration? Like the war on drugs, only better.

  151. @San Fernando Curt
    @JerseyGuy

    Insane for Americans making less than six figures a year, yes. But insane for Klein and his ilk? Hardly. Over and over, throughout Western mainstream media, we hear the same call to do away with borders, to increase our "responsibility" to the world's poor, to make them "richer". Klein and his ilk care nothing for kulak Americans. Not only are our elites filled with milk of human kindness for the world's portable vibrants (as long as it suits their interest), they're adamant about importing a low-wage workforce to benefit themselves. And they are committed to destroying "legacy" America, which they equate with Hitler, Nazis, Palestinians, Cossacks, Klansmen, Confederates, white gentile straight men, and all the other riotous devils of their neurotic, stagnant imagination. I don't think what emerges will be anything like the multicultural pastorale of their fever dreams, and it may very well curl to bite them in two. That would be wondrous. But, of course, too late for the rest of us, as well.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “And they are committed to destroying “legacy” America, which they equate with Hitler, Nazis, Palestinians,”

    You must be living in a cave because Palestinians are seen in a positive light among Liberal Social Justice Warrior college students. Nobody will boo and heckle you if you bring a Palestinian flag to the UC Berkeley campus for example. They hate pro-Israel Neo Cons just as much as you do. They are anti-war in the Middle East but pro-DIEversity America is a nation of immigrants and we need more sanctuary cities.

    They don’t want America fighting wars for Israel but at the same they also do not want America to remain a predominantly White country.

  152. @Pincher Martin
    @Harold


    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state.
     
    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.

    Racism, on the other hand, makes perfect sense, and it is natural.
     
    I disagree. If it were natural, we wouldn't be fighting our elites tooth and nail to close the borders and stop them from remaking the country.

    Replies: @Harold, @Reg Cæsar

    “Nationalism” makes no sense for a multicultural state.

    The Swiss and the Singaporeans seem to still have use for it.

    Those countries– hardly nations– each have four official languages. What kind of a state needs an “official language” law? Not a healthy one. Not Japan. Not Denmark. Not Brazil. Not Greece. Not Somalia. Not the United States. (Yet.)

    Switzerland survives by extreme devolution, Singapore by heavy-handed progressive authoritarianism.

  153. @Nathan Wartooth
    @e

    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    It has everything to do with what the interviewer was talking about.

    The elite has figured out that you can't fix South America, Africa or the Middle East. They are poor and will always be poor. So they don't do the elites much good since they don't have money to spend. But like the interviewer said, a poor person in the US or the UK is 100x better off financially than the poor in a third world country.

    So the solution is to move them to a first world country so even in the worst case scenario they get on welfare they will have more money to spend. It's just another example of privatizing profits and socializing costs.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren't clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren’t clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.

    Actually, I think most people here are over-thinking the whole issue, with regard to Zuckerberg and most of his peers…

    Let’s step back a bit. Earlier, I pointed out that Ezra Klein fellow seemed like a total ignoramus, who three or four years ago used to ridicule the notion of a high minimum wage but now (I’m sure) believes it’s the most important progressive issue in the world. Basically, all he does is vaguely repeat what all the other people he knows tend to say about things.

    Now consider Zuckerberg. He’s almost exactly the same age as Klein, but while Klein actually graduated college, Zuckerberg dropped out after his freshman year. I’d guess he’s much smarter than Klein, but probably has focused all his attention on business/software issues and almost none on public policy. So he probably makes Klein look like a towering font of policy expertise.

    To the extent that Zuckerberg wants to support the right thing in public policy, he probably follows the leads of the wisest policy experts he knows…like that Klein fellow, whom the MSM has annointed as some sort of brilliant progressive analyst. My guess is that Zuckerberg hires “advisors” roughly his own age, and they take their lead from Klein and people like him Tweeting out their inanities on Vox.com.

    I think it’s a little silly to believe that Zuckerberg is some brilliant evil political genius, manipulating our government immigration policies to achieve some sort of long-term nefarious transformation of society.

    My guess is that the same thing is true of most of the other billionaires who spend lots of money on public policy causes, even the ones who are much older, have had more experience of the world, and actually graduated college.

    • Agree: Harold, Brutusale, Luke Lea
    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    @Ron Unz

    Of course, it doesn't hurt Zuckerberg and Facebook that there is this huge pool of tech talent in India who will work for low wages.

    (Yes, I know that there are a lot of idiots in India, but out of 1.3Bn people there also has to be a pretty large number of fairly smart ones as well.)

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Ron Unz

    What would Zuckerberg need Mexicans for, anyway? Watering the roof of Facebook's Gehry-rigged headquarters?

    His financial incentive points to India and China, not Latin America or Africa. Inasmuch as he supports free migration from the latter, it's either from the heart, or as a favor for others closer to the action.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    , @Harry Baldwin
    @Ron Unz

    Ron, I would find the argument that naivete is at the root of billionaires' support for various liberal policies more convincing if only one of those policies didn't turn out to be in their own economic interest. It's too much of a coincidence that every one of them works out that way.

    Similarly, the fact that every Western government expresses extreme concern about global warming convinces me it's a scam. Since when are they concerned about any problem that promises disaster in the immediate future, let alone one with disaster anticipated at the end of this century? They don't care about sovereign debt and demographic replacement, so I'll continue to assume that their concern for "global warming" is only because they see it as a way to grab more power.

    Replies: @SFG

  154. If anyone looks at the positions of Trump when he considered a run in 2000, you’ll see echoes of Perot:

    Pro Choice, Pro Universal Healthcare but also for Tighter Immigration Laws, Against Bilingual Education

    It was basically a pro nation state set of policies that could, perhaps, unite the nationalist left and nationalist right. Right now, Trump only has the nationalist right.

    But, if Jeb and Hillary are the nominees, Trump could run a third party candidacy where he embraced bit more economic populist than he can as a GOP contender.

    Even though I tend to be more conservative on economic issues, I’d vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Tom Saw


    …I’d vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..
     
    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?

    Beyond the issues of self-support and paying the same taxes the rest of us do (they don't), residence in the US is worth something, a lot of something, so why are we giving it away for free?

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Tom Saw, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

  155. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypes"] says:
    @Ron Unz
    @Nathan Wartooth


    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren’t clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.
     
    Actually, I think most people here are over-thinking the whole issue, with regard to Zuckerberg and most of his peers...

    Let's step back a bit. Earlier, I pointed out that Ezra Klein fellow seemed like a total ignoramus, who three or four years ago used to ridicule the notion of a high minimum wage but now (I'm sure) believes it's the most important progressive issue in the world. Basically, all he does is vaguely repeat what all the other people he knows tend to say about things.

    Now consider Zuckerberg. He's almost exactly the same age as Klein, but while Klein actually graduated college, Zuckerberg dropped out after his freshman year. I'd guess he's much smarter than Klein, but probably has focused all his attention on business/software issues and almost none on public policy. So he probably makes Klein look like a towering font of policy expertise.

    To the extent that Zuckerberg wants to support the right thing in public policy, he probably follows the leads of the wisest policy experts he knows...like that Klein fellow, whom the MSM has annointed as some sort of brilliant progressive analyst. My guess is that Zuckerberg hires "advisors" roughly his own age, and they take their lead from Klein and people like him Tweeting out their inanities on Vox.com.

    I think it's a little silly to believe that Zuckerberg is some brilliant evil political genius, manipulating our government immigration policies to achieve some sort of long-term nefarious transformation of society.

    My guess is that the same thing is true of most of the other billionaires who spend lots of money on public policy causes, even the ones who are much older, have had more experience of the world, and actually graduated college.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @Reg Cæsar, @Harry Baldwin

    Of course, it doesn’t hurt Zuckerberg and Facebook that there is this huge pool of tech talent in India who will work for low wages.

    (Yes, I know that there are a lot of idiots in India, but out of 1.3Bn people there also has to be a pretty large number of fairly smart ones as well.)

  156. @Ron Unz
    @Nathan Wartooth


    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren’t clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.
     
    Actually, I think most people here are over-thinking the whole issue, with regard to Zuckerberg and most of his peers...

    Let's step back a bit. Earlier, I pointed out that Ezra Klein fellow seemed like a total ignoramus, who three or four years ago used to ridicule the notion of a high minimum wage but now (I'm sure) believes it's the most important progressive issue in the world. Basically, all he does is vaguely repeat what all the other people he knows tend to say about things.

    Now consider Zuckerberg. He's almost exactly the same age as Klein, but while Klein actually graduated college, Zuckerberg dropped out after his freshman year. I'd guess he's much smarter than Klein, but probably has focused all his attention on business/software issues and almost none on public policy. So he probably makes Klein look like a towering font of policy expertise.

    To the extent that Zuckerberg wants to support the right thing in public policy, he probably follows the leads of the wisest policy experts he knows...like that Klein fellow, whom the MSM has annointed as some sort of brilliant progressive analyst. My guess is that Zuckerberg hires "advisors" roughly his own age, and they take their lead from Klein and people like him Tweeting out their inanities on Vox.com.

    I think it's a little silly to believe that Zuckerberg is some brilliant evil political genius, manipulating our government immigration policies to achieve some sort of long-term nefarious transformation of society.

    My guess is that the same thing is true of most of the other billionaires who spend lots of money on public policy causes, even the ones who are much older, have had more experience of the world, and actually graduated college.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @Reg Cæsar, @Harry Baldwin

    What would Zuckerberg need Mexicans for, anyway? Watering the roof of Facebook’s Gehry-rigged headquarters?

    His financial incentive points to India and China, not Latin America or Africa. Inasmuch as he supports free migration from the latter, it’s either from the heart, or as a favor for others closer to the action.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    @Reg Cæsar

    "What would Zuckerberg need Mexicans for, anyway? Watering the roof of Facebook’s Gehry-rigged headquarters?"

    I would not be surprised if there are more Nigerian computer programmers and engineers in Silicon Valley than there are Mexican computer programmers and engineers. Mexicans really do punch below their weight in the world of technology. Latin Americans in general punch below their weight in the world of technology. There is a reason the tech capital of Texas for example is Austin with it's high percentage of White Gringos and Asians and not the heavily mediocre Mexican El Paso.

  157. @JerseyGuy
    What's shocking is that Ezra Klein is supposed to be a mainstream "American" journalist and policy wonk for American interests and he is explicitly saying that America shouldn't actually be for Americans. Absolutely insane!

    Replies: @Maj. Kong, @Whiskey, @San Fernando Curt, @24AheadDotCom

    No, what’s shocking is how vulnerable Ezra has been throughout his entire short career and how little those who should oppose him have been able to show him wrong about anything. If you guys (speaking very generally) had helped me discredit him years ago he wouldn’t be saying the things he does now and having the impact he has.

    As for Sanders, that interview is great and useful. But, he still supports mass legalization. If leading opponents of that weren’t unintelligent and corrupt, they could move him to oppose mass legalization. Amnesty supporters managed to get Hillary’s replacement to switch from being OK to being bad on amnesty within just a matter of days, but leading amnesty opponents are too corrupt and too unintelligent to be able to do the opposite with Hillary or even easier ones like Sanders.

    If you’re smart and sane enough to realize there’s a problem, then don’t enable those leading amnesty opponents. Get in their faces and demand they finally do their jobs.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    @24AheadDotCom

    As for Sanders, that interview is great and useful. But, he still supports mass legalization.

    I'd support mass legalization in return for an across-the-board moratorium (pause, time-out) until we can assimilate and integrate the tens of millions of immigrants, legal as well as illegal, who are already in this country, the great majority from cultures and societies with no, or very weak, democratic traditions.

    Wouldn't you? Eleven million is less than a decade's worth of legal immigration, which has been going on and is set to continue going on decade after decade.

    Amnesty for a moratorium, yes! A grand bargain.

  158. “anti-open borders” is a straw man, just like “open borders”. The borders of the US are far from open. It is almost impossible for anyone not living in Mexico or Canada to get into the US unless US citizens (or their proxy, the USCIS) want them to. What people seem to be (understandably) upset about is the large number of illegal immigrants who have entered the country over the past few decades. But really, even immigrating illegally seems to be very hard now. Central Americans tried last year, but they got caught at the border IIRC. I think much of what people on these forums fight over is over a concept which they believe is propagated by the liberals, their ideological opponents. Both sides take extreme rhetorical positions, which bear little resemblance to reality.

    Show me the countries that take in more immigrants than the USA. Show me what “open borders” look like, if not the USA.

    Jackass.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Svigor

    Do you have some philosophical objection to using the reply button?

    When you don't, we have to scroll up and hunt for the original. In this case, it was "Numinous" at comment #141. (An Edward Lear fan?)

    Replies: @Numinous, @Svigor

    , @Numinous
    @Svigor


    Show me the countries that take in more immigrants than the USA. Show me what “open borders” look like, if not the USA.
     
    "Open borders" to me implies uncontrolled (and therefore meaningless) borders. The US has (mostly) complete control over its borders. As so many of you keep saying, building walls and fences, and planting armed guards, works. If the US government is unwilling to do much more than it has in that respect, it's because of internal political imperatives, not because of some inherent inability to control the borders. As for a person from every country other than Mexico or Canada, the only way they can get into the US is by lining up in front of their nearest US consulate and applying for a visa (and getting one of those is not easy, because unlike what you all think, the consulate officials in poor countries are as scared of being swamped by poor foreigners as you are).

    The current legal immigration numbers are a reflection of Americans' negotiated preferences. Just because some immigrants from some country you do not favor land in the US, it doesn't mean the borders have been opened for everyone to flood in; it just means your preferred limits are outliers among Americans' preferences. If the legal immigrants' numbers are high according to you, then go talk to your Congressman and apply public pressure. If you want immigration to stop from, say India, there's a very simple solution. Close every consulate in India; it'll save money too.

    Replies: @Svigor

  159. it not really all that important what sanders will do as president or what he has voted for or against in the past…what is important is that this interview shows that he is willing and able to speak radical truths that have been kept out of the mainstream political debate.

    I want politicians who will tell radical truths about this dominant economic consensus wisdom that the establishment has been pushing.

    I want sanders up on that debate stage or on that presidential press briefing podium speaking radical truths that counteract the dominant paradigm.

    Sanders is a propaganda weapon we can use, a weapon that the white middle class can use.

    Propaganda created this world. We need propaganda weapons.

    Sanders, Trump and Webb can be those weapons. They are sending us signals, saying “I want to be your weapon. Use me.”

  160. @Ron Unz
    Ha, ha, ha... That Ezra Klein fellow is an amusing sort of modern-day "liberal"...

    When I originally helped start the national debate over a much higher Minimum Wage with my big article a few years ago, he ridiculed and denounced my proposal and basically suggested that only ignorant people or economics illiterates supported the very existence of a Minimum Wage. Meanwhile, he fulsomely praised the Texas economic policies of Gov. Rick Perry, based entirely on an ultra-low-wage economy. Fortunately, other "liberals" were a bit smarter than him, and today the Democrats are mostly debating whether the Minimum Wage should be $12 per hour or something even higher.

    https://www.unz.com/runz/immigration-liberal-dc-pundit-denounces-minimum-wage-on-msnbc/

    Ezra Klein has never struck me as being all that bright, but since it sounds like he's auditioning for the role of "Favorite Liberal of the Billionaire Koch Brothers" I supposed he doesn't have to be...

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman, @josh, @Retired

    Great Idea, Ron
    Your Foundation should subsidize the small businesses that are closing down where the min wage is enacted. Start with the comic book store in SF and the restaurant on Union St.
    Are you lobbying for Palo Alto to enact it? Have you ever been in an establishment that pays less than minimum wage? How about the golf course where my oppressed teen-aged kid is toiling for $9/hr. Oh, double that with tips. He would be out of work if you were King.

  161. @Tom Saw
    If anyone looks at the positions of Trump when he considered a run in 2000, you'll see echoes of Perot:

    Pro Choice, Pro Universal Healthcare but also for Tighter Immigration Laws, Against Bilingual Education

    It was basically a pro nation state set of policies that could, perhaps, unite the nationalist left and nationalist right. Right now, Trump only has the nationalist right.

    But, if Jeb and Hillary are the nominees, Trump could run a third party candidacy where he embraced bit more economic populist than he can as a GOP contender.

    Even though I tend to be more conservative on economic issues, I'd vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    …I’d vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..

    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?

    Beyond the issues of self-support and paying the same taxes the rest of us do (they don’t), residence in the US is worth something, a lot of something, so why are we giving it away for free?

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Reg Cæsar

    Consider getting out into the real world and talking to real libertarians. Or just read them. Now, you can say they're not real, but they say they are, and the vast majority oppose borders for obvious reasons.

    Your objection is philosophical and argumentative. I actually agree with it, in the abstract, but it does not describe the real world.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Tom Saw
    @Reg Cæsar

    Most that call themselves libertarian are pro mass immigration. I agree that the proper position for a right libertarian is restricted immigration, but that is not the reality of what most libertarians push.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Reg Cæsar

    "[yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?"

    The Cato Institute is not libertarian?

    Let Them In

    I didn't know you had the authority to read them out of the movement.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @MarkinLA
    @Reg Cæsar

    Libertarians support the free movement of people. Their argument is that the welfare state should also be abolished so nobody gets any goodies including immigrants. In their simplistic world view they ignore the reality that in the industrial ages the vast majority of people don't have total control over their lives and some social safety net must exist.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  162. @Svigor

    “anti-open borders” is a straw man, just like “open borders”. The borders of the US are far from open. It is almost impossible for anyone not living in Mexico or Canada to get into the US unless US citizens (or their proxy, the USCIS) want them to. What people seem to be (understandably) upset about is the large number of illegal immigrants who have entered the country over the past few decades. But really, even immigrating illegally seems to be very hard now. Central Americans tried last year, but they got caught at the border IIRC. I think much of what people on these forums fight over is over a concept which they believe is propagated by the liberals, their ideological opponents. Both sides take extreme rhetorical positions, which bear little resemblance to reality.
     
    Show me the countries that take in more immigrants than the USA. Show me what "open borders" look like, if not the USA.

    Jackass.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Numinous

    Do you have some philosophical objection to using the reply button?

    When you don’t, we have to scroll up and hunt for the original. In this case, it was “Numinous” at comment #141. (An Edward Lear fan?)

    • Replies: @Numinous
    @Reg Cæsar


    An Edward Lear fan?
     
    No, I was just looking for a (real) word that sounds similar to "anonymous".

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Svigor
    @Reg Cæsar


    Do you have some philosophical objection to using the reply button?
     
    Not now that it's working without JavaScript, but I hadn't noticed that was the case until you mentioned it. So thanks.

    Just FYI, in Firefox, CTRL-F gets you a search field that will jump you between the two, no scrolling (other browsers are similar).
  163. @Svigor

    “anti-open borders” is a straw man, just like “open borders”. The borders of the US are far from open. It is almost impossible for anyone not living in Mexico or Canada to get into the US unless US citizens (or their proxy, the USCIS) want them to. What people seem to be (understandably) upset about is the large number of illegal immigrants who have entered the country over the past few decades. But really, even immigrating illegally seems to be very hard now. Central Americans tried last year, but they got caught at the border IIRC. I think much of what people on these forums fight over is over a concept which they believe is propagated by the liberals, their ideological opponents. Both sides take extreme rhetorical positions, which bear little resemblance to reality.
     
    Show me the countries that take in more immigrants than the USA. Show me what "open borders" look like, if not the USA.

    Jackass.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Numinous

    Show me the countries that take in more immigrants than the USA. Show me what “open borders” look like, if not the USA.

    “Open borders” to me implies uncontrolled (and therefore meaningless) borders. The US has (mostly) complete control over its borders. As so many of you keep saying, building walls and fences, and planting armed guards, works. If the US government is unwilling to do much more than it has in that respect, it’s because of internal political imperatives, not because of some inherent inability to control the borders. As for a person from every country other than Mexico or Canada, the only way they can get into the US is by lining up in front of their nearest US consulate and applying for a visa (and getting one of those is not easy, because unlike what you all think, the consulate officials in poor countries are as scared of being swamped by poor foreigners as you are).

    The current legal immigration numbers are a reflection of Americans’ negotiated preferences. Just because some immigrants from some country you do not favor land in the US, it doesn’t mean the borders have been opened for everyone to flood in; it just means your preferred limits are outliers among Americans’ preferences. If the legal immigrants’ numbers are high according to you, then go talk to your Congressman and apply public pressure. If you want immigration to stop from, say India, there’s a very simple solution. Close every consulate in India; it’ll save money too.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    @Numinous


    “Open borders” to me implies uncontrolled (and therefore meaningless) borders.
     
    Do you go 'sperg at will, or is it a genuine affliction?
  164. @Reg Cæsar
    @Svigor

    Do you have some philosophical objection to using the reply button?

    When you don't, we have to scroll up and hunt for the original. In this case, it was "Numinous" at comment #141. (An Edward Lear fan?)

    Replies: @Numinous, @Svigor

    An Edward Lear fan?

    No, I was just looking for a (real) word that sounds similar to “anonymous”.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Numinous

    My mistake. Lear's Dong was luminous, not numinous. I got him mixed up with the Numinous Negro.

  165. I only wish Bernie Sanders’s voting record matched his rhetoric.

    Yep. This guy is for border control the same way Rubio was for border control – he’ll “grow” in office and realize the best policy is green cards all around and anyone who disagrees is racist.

  166. @Reg Cæsar
    @Tom Saw


    …I’d vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..
     
    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?

    Beyond the issues of self-support and paying the same taxes the rest of us do (they don't), residence in the US is worth something, a lot of something, so why are we giving it away for free?

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Tom Saw, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    Consider getting out into the real world and talking to real libertarians. Or just read them. Now, you can say they’re not real, but they say they are, and the vast majority oppose borders for obvious reasons.

    Your objection is philosophical and argumentative. I actually agree with it, in the abstract, but it does not describe the real world.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Kyle McKenna

    My subscription to Reason expired around 1983. I don't even recognize it now.

    They're about as libertarian as Bernie Sanders is socialist. (Can you see him doing to Ben & Jerry's what Charles DeGaulle did to Renault? That was socialism, Bernie.) Like Sanders, these kids are just using a word to appear "cool" and "edgy".

    As Milton Friedman intimated, immigration to a welfare state violates the non-aggression principle-- the only principle libertarians have! As your local parish priest can explain, the Church doesn't excommunicate you, your own actions do.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Hibernian

  167. @Ron Unz
    @Nathan Wartooth


    I figured something out recently about why people like Mark Zuckerburg want open borders but it has nothing to do with lower wages.

    Zuckerburg makes money from advertising and poor people in third world countries might use Facebook but they aren’t clicking on ads and buying stuff, so the solution is to move them to where they will have disposable income.
     
    Actually, I think most people here are over-thinking the whole issue, with regard to Zuckerberg and most of his peers...

    Let's step back a bit. Earlier, I pointed out that Ezra Klein fellow seemed like a total ignoramus, who three or four years ago used to ridicule the notion of a high minimum wage but now (I'm sure) believes it's the most important progressive issue in the world. Basically, all he does is vaguely repeat what all the other people he knows tend to say about things.

    Now consider Zuckerberg. He's almost exactly the same age as Klein, but while Klein actually graduated college, Zuckerberg dropped out after his freshman year. I'd guess he's much smarter than Klein, but probably has focused all his attention on business/software issues and almost none on public policy. So he probably makes Klein look like a towering font of policy expertise.

    To the extent that Zuckerberg wants to support the right thing in public policy, he probably follows the leads of the wisest policy experts he knows...like that Klein fellow, whom the MSM has annointed as some sort of brilliant progressive analyst. My guess is that Zuckerberg hires "advisors" roughly his own age, and they take their lead from Klein and people like him Tweeting out their inanities on Vox.com.

    I think it's a little silly to believe that Zuckerberg is some brilliant evil political genius, manipulating our government immigration policies to achieve some sort of long-term nefarious transformation of society.

    My guess is that the same thing is true of most of the other billionaires who spend lots of money on public policy causes, even the ones who are much older, have had more experience of the world, and actually graduated college.

    Replies: @The most deplorable one, @Reg Cæsar, @Harry Baldwin

    Ron, I would find the argument that naivete is at the root of billionaires’ support for various liberal policies more convincing if only one of those policies didn’t turn out to be in their own economic interest. It’s too much of a coincidence that every one of them works out that way.

    Similarly, the fact that every Western government expresses extreme concern about global warming convinces me it’s a scam. Since when are they concerned about any problem that promises disaster in the immediate future, let alone one with disaster anticipated at the end of this century? They don’t care about sovereign debt and demographic replacement, so I’ll continue to assume that their concern for “global warming” is only because they see it as a way to grab more power.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Harry Baldwin

    Probably it's a mix of 'this is what the people around me are saying' and 'this won't hurt me'. Zuckerberg probably tries to tune out a lot of the diversity stuff, because it'll make him hire inferior people.

  168. @Reg Cæsar
    @Svigor

    Do you have some philosophical objection to using the reply button?

    When you don't, we have to scroll up and hunt for the original. In this case, it was "Numinous" at comment #141. (An Edward Lear fan?)

    Replies: @Numinous, @Svigor

    Do you have some philosophical objection to using the reply button?

    Not now that it’s working without JavaScript, but I hadn’t noticed that was the case until you mentioned it. So thanks.

    Just FYI, in Firefox, CTRL-F gets you a search field that will jump you between the two, no scrolling (other browsers are similar).

  169. @Numinous
    @Svigor


    Show me the countries that take in more immigrants than the USA. Show me what “open borders” look like, if not the USA.
     
    "Open borders" to me implies uncontrolled (and therefore meaningless) borders. The US has (mostly) complete control over its borders. As so many of you keep saying, building walls and fences, and planting armed guards, works. If the US government is unwilling to do much more than it has in that respect, it's because of internal political imperatives, not because of some inherent inability to control the borders. As for a person from every country other than Mexico or Canada, the only way they can get into the US is by lining up in front of their nearest US consulate and applying for a visa (and getting one of those is not easy, because unlike what you all think, the consulate officials in poor countries are as scared of being swamped by poor foreigners as you are).

    The current legal immigration numbers are a reflection of Americans' negotiated preferences. Just because some immigrants from some country you do not favor land in the US, it doesn't mean the borders have been opened for everyone to flood in; it just means your preferred limits are outliers among Americans' preferences. If the legal immigrants' numbers are high according to you, then go talk to your Congressman and apply public pressure. If you want immigration to stop from, say India, there's a very simple solution. Close every consulate in India; it'll save money too.

    Replies: @Svigor

    “Open borders” to me implies uncontrolled (and therefore meaningless) borders.

    Do you go ‘sperg at will, or is it a genuine affliction?

  170. I think it’s a little silly to believe that Zuckerberg is some brilliant evil political genius, manipulating our government immigration policies to achieve some sort of long-term nefarious transformation of society.

    What you describe is par for the course, once a hostile elite has made open discourse and a whole portion of the political spectrum taboo. It takes a lot of deliberately evil, conspiratorial groundwork to set that up.

    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?

    So, the actual number of libertarians is actually a tiny fraction of their ostensible (tiny) number. I.e., the number of libertarians is vanishingly small.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Svigor


    So, the actual number of libertarians is actually a tiny fraction of their ostensible (tiny) number. I.e., the number of libertarians is vanishingly small.
     
    There are legions of cafeteria libertarians-- total freedom for what I want, to hell with everything else. E.g., NRA, SAF, GOA, etc, on guns. Feminists (mistakenly) on abortion: "Keep your laws off my body… until I need to fund an operation!" Journalists: "Regulate every industry but ours!"
  171. @Harry Baldwin
    @Ron Unz

    Ron, I would find the argument that naivete is at the root of billionaires' support for various liberal policies more convincing if only one of those policies didn't turn out to be in their own economic interest. It's too much of a coincidence that every one of them works out that way.

    Similarly, the fact that every Western government expresses extreme concern about global warming convinces me it's a scam. Since when are they concerned about any problem that promises disaster in the immediate future, let alone one with disaster anticipated at the end of this century? They don't care about sovereign debt and demographic replacement, so I'll continue to assume that their concern for "global warming" is only because they see it as a way to grab more power.

    Replies: @SFG

    Probably it’s a mix of ‘this is what the people around me are saying’ and ‘this won’t hurt me’. Zuckerberg probably tries to tune out a lot of the diversity stuff, because it’ll make him hire inferior people.

  172. @Massimo Heitor
    If Jeb runs against Sanders, Steve Sailer + Coulter + Trump's entire fanbase becomes hard line Democrat voters and Koch bashers.

    Replies: @Harry Baldwin, @Kevin O'Keeffe, @Bill

    Is that a bad thing?

  173. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    @Priss Factor

    Would you sell your kids for $$$? Africans would, but well, that’s why they is Africans.

    To be fair, they have extras.

    Replies: @Priss Factor

    “To be fair, they have extras.”

    We are told feminism is great cuz it allows women to pursue careers than be mothers and have kids.

    But this will lead to depopulation. What about the new generation? If feminism leads to birth dearth, isn’t that suicidal?

    But we are not supposed to say women should have more kids.

    The solution, we are told, is third world immigration from nations where women have more children due to lack of feminism.

    So, feminism is good and anti-feminism is bad in the west, but the west depends on anti-feminist non-west to provide the people for the future west. In other words, thank todd that the non-west isn’t feminist.

    Suppose the entire world signs onto feminism and suffers from birth dearth. Suppose even the third world runs out of people to send to the west.
    But for the feminist west to survive in the long run, it requires the anti-feminist third world to produce surplus people to move to the west.
    What kind of logic is that?

    Anyway, if the west fills up with anti-feminist non-whites, won’t western feminism eventually decline and fade away?

    So, in the long run, the west will finally be rid of feminism by becoming majority non-white. But then, it would no longer be racially and culturally western either.

  174. @Reg Cæsar
    @Tom Saw


    …I’d vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..
     
    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?

    Beyond the issues of self-support and paying the same taxes the rest of us do (they don't), residence in the US is worth something, a lot of something, so why are we giving it away for free?

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Tom Saw, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    Most that call themselves libertarian are pro mass immigration. I agree that the proper position for a right libertarian is restricted immigration, but that is not the reality of what most libertarians push.

  175. @Ivy
    @ben tillman

    Did you vote for John Anderson to make it a straight flush?

    Replies: @ben tillman

    Did you vote for John Anderson to make it a straight flush?

    Was too young, but I would have!

  176. @AshTon
    @Hannah Katz

    The UK has a Shortage Occupations List for in-demand occupations which visas are more easily available. Mainly engineering and healthcare. I think the U.S. H-1B system is similar.

    Bernie's "free education" should be based on similar criteria - ie you'll get free education if you are intellectually able AND you are studying something which will improve the economy and fill an employment gap. Engineering, not Feminist Film Theory.

    Then you wouldn't get the awful situation of native workers actually training their replacement immigrant workers.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    There’s an “employment gap”?

  177. @Kyle McKenna
    @Reg Cæsar

    Consider getting out into the real world and talking to real libertarians. Or just read them. Now, you can say they're not real, but they say they are, and the vast majority oppose borders for obvious reasons.

    Your objection is philosophical and argumentative. I actually agree with it, in the abstract, but it does not describe the real world.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    My subscription to Reason expired around 1983. I don’t even recognize it now.

    They’re about as libertarian as Bernie Sanders is socialist. (Can you see him doing to Ben & Jerry’s what Charles DeGaulle did to Renault? That was socialism, Bernie.) Like Sanders, these kids are just using a word to appear “cool” and “edgy”.

    As Milton Friedman intimated, immigration to a welfare state violates the non-aggression principle– the only principle libertarians have! As your local parish priest can explain, the Church doesn’t excommunicate you, your own actions do.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
    @Reg Cæsar

    Heh... points taken; and besides, you're an amusing writer and thinker.


    And seeing your #178 in this thread, it appears you're old enough to have quit Reason in 1983 yet hip enough to insert your own HTML. Impressive, old man!

    , @Hibernian
    @Reg Cæsar

    The welfare state itself violates the non-agression principle by collecting taxes on pain of imprisonment.

  178. IBC says:
    @e
    Now, if Bernie had just said, "The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love" lower wages, I'd be okay with that--showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn't, however.

    Replies: @timothy, @Jesse, @Nathan Wartooth, @IBC, @Ash

    At other times when discussing Citizens United (corporate personhood), Sanders has mentioned the Koch brothers and George Soros in the same breath. It’ll be interesting to see if any candidate dares to even offhandedly criticize Mark Zuckerberg in this upcoming presidential race. Remember that he’s not just vastly wealthy, he also controls “the Social Network,” –the place where many Americans now get most of their news.

  179. @Svigor

    I think it’s a little silly to believe that Zuckerberg is some brilliant evil political genius, manipulating our government immigration policies to achieve some sort of long-term nefarious transformation of society.
     
    What you describe is par for the course, once a hostile elite has made open discourse and a whole portion of the political spectrum taboo. It takes a lot of deliberately evil, conspiratorial groundwork to set that up.

    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?
     
    So, the actual number of libertarians is actually a tiny fraction of their ostensible (tiny) number. I.e., the number of libertarians is vanishingly small.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    So, the actual number of libertarians is actually a tiny fraction of their ostensible (tiny) number. I.e., the number of libertarians is vanishingly small.

    There are legions of cafeteria libertarians– total freedom for what I want, to hell with everything else. E.g., NRA, SAF, GOA, etc, on guns. Feminists (mistakenly) on abortion: “Keep your laws off my body… until I need to fund an operation!” Journalists: “Regulate every industry but ours!”

  180. @David
    @Mark Green

    This is right. To my knowledge, he's never said anything like the nation state stuff before. The idea would be repugnant to 2/3 of his voters. Sanders is a demagogue motivated only by an orgasmic pleasure in being perceived by others to be right, correct, good. He has zero principle except striving for praise.

    In a Vermont Public Radio interview about 2 years ago, he came out in favor of drivers' licences for illegals in VT, a program which has resulted in 40,000 being issued, although there are said to be only two or three thousand "guest farm workers" in the state, which has a total population of just 630,000.

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/128012991

    http://watchdog.org/229501/licenses-illegal-immigrants-employment-documents/

    Replies: @IBC

    He actually has said similar things before. For example in an interview about three or four years ago, he pointed out that according to fundamental economic principles, it makes no sense to import more workers at a time when there’s already significant national unemployment (especially of young black men), and, on top of that, to expect higher wages. I think Sanders seems sincere in his analysis of the US labor market and the best interests of the American public. However, you’re right to point out that his actual immigration voting record doesn’t tally with that rhetoric.

    But if he doesn’t really think that, why does he risk saying it? So far he’s only had to worry about getting re-elected in Vermont, and he’s an incumbent senator. He doesn’t need to say things like that. And yet again, his voting record contradicts those statements. What’s going on?

    For what it’s worth, Sanders’ record does seem to be more consistent on other populist issues such as bank reform and political lobbying. But even with 100 percent consistency, how many people can he get to follow him? In Congress, the answer is, not many. But at least in talking about these issues, he’s forcing a reaction from the media and other candidates. And I think that’s his real goal in running for president. Now that he finally has part of the spotlight, what he says may actually be more important than how he actually votes. If we’re lucky, Hillary Clinton will actually ask Sanders to explain his voting record during a debate, drawing even more attention to these issues.

  181. @Reg Cæsar
    @Tom Saw


    …I’d vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..
     
    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?

    Beyond the issues of self-support and paying the same taxes the rest of us do (they don't), residence in the US is worth something, a lot of something, so why are we giving it away for free?

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Tom Saw, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    “[yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?”

    The Cato Institute is not libertarian?

    Let Them In

    I didn’t know you had the authority to read them out of the movement.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    I didn’t know you had the authority to read them out of the movement.

     

    As I said in another comment above, they excommunicate themselves. It's a simple concept.

    "Immigrants on food stamps is libertarian." Call me thick, but the logic of this just isn't penetrating. Can Cato explain its way out of this sack? Can you?

    Replies: @Truth

  182. @Reg Cæsar
    @Kyle McKenna

    My subscription to Reason expired around 1983. I don't even recognize it now.

    They're about as libertarian as Bernie Sanders is socialist. (Can you see him doing to Ben & Jerry's what Charles DeGaulle did to Renault? That was socialism, Bernie.) Like Sanders, these kids are just using a word to appear "cool" and "edgy".

    As Milton Friedman intimated, immigration to a welfare state violates the non-aggression principle-- the only principle libertarians have! As your local parish priest can explain, the Church doesn't excommunicate you, your own actions do.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Hibernian

    Heh… points taken; and besides, you’re an amusing writer and thinker.

    And seeing your #178 in this thread, it appears you’re old enough to have quit Reason in 1983 yet hip enough to insert your own HTML. Impressive, old man!

  183. @Reg Cæsar
    @Kyle McKenna

    My subscription to Reason expired around 1983. I don't even recognize it now.

    They're about as libertarian as Bernie Sanders is socialist. (Can you see him doing to Ben & Jerry's what Charles DeGaulle did to Renault? That was socialism, Bernie.) Like Sanders, these kids are just using a word to appear "cool" and "edgy".

    As Milton Friedman intimated, immigration to a welfare state violates the non-aggression principle-- the only principle libertarians have! As your local parish priest can explain, the Church doesn't excommunicate you, your own actions do.

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Hibernian

    The welfare state itself violates the non-agression principle by collecting taxes on pain of imprisonment.

  184. @Mr. Anon
    @Pincher Martin

    "No, I think that nationalism is dying out among American’s youth. A growing number of them just no longer accept the idea that America is special, blessed, or unique."

    The abandonment of American Exceptionalism is a necessary precursor to the development of a healthy american nationalism. A real patriot doesn't love his country because his country is special, blessed, or unique; he loves it because it is his, because it is the land of his forefathers.

    American nationalism as it is expressed by mainstream conservatives is an anti-nationalism - a loyalty not to America the country, but rather to America the idea, the proposition.

    Not that young people today are thinking along those lines.

    Replies: @Olorin

    > A real patriot doesn’t love his country because his country is special, blessed, or unique; he loves it because it is his, because it is the land of his forefathers.

    Exactly.

    And this is precisely why open borders is de rigueur for the globalizer class: it guarantees that love of country and patriotism will die out and squirmaggoty competition for the corpse of nations will ensue. For a price, Ugarte, for a price.

    I was taken out to supper to a “mediterranean” restaurant by some business colleagues in a city I visit a few times a year. Turned out it was actually Turkish. Owner came around to the tables to meet everyone; it’s a new place. Nice touch, but as he talked of this and that it became clear that in his mind the US is simply a place he exploits to send money back to “his country.” I.e. Turkey.

    My ancestors came to the US nearly 400 years ago. From the get go they redefined themselves as Americans, devoted to the new land and later the republic and Constitution. “Our country” is not where we came from, but what we made here. This is a direct threat to free trade open borders diversitopian globalizers and their bankster over lords. Guys like Turkish Restaurant Guy are pawns in the process. They have no intention of this ever being their country. They go wherever the banksters promise to lend them money. They clamp on serf chains as naturally as their genome allows.

  185. @Numinous
    @Reg Cæsar


    An Edward Lear fan?
     
    No, I was just looking for a (real) word that sounds similar to "anonymous".

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    My mistake. Lear’s Dong was luminous, not numinous. I got him mixed up with the Numinous Negro.

  186. @ben tillman
    @stillCARealist


    Say what? If the choice is between Commie Lib #1 and Commie Lib #2, you leave it blank.
     
    I've voted for Perot, Buchanan, Baldwin, and -- yes -- Ralph Nader.

    Replies: @Ivy, @Truth

    LOL, I was with you on 2/4. You just have to figure out which 2.

  187. @Mr. Anon
    @Reg Cæsar

    "[yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?"

    The Cato Institute is not libertarian?

    Let Them In

    I didn't know you had the authority to read them out of the movement.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I didn’t know you had the authority to read them out of the movement.

    As I said in another comment above, they excommunicate themselves. It’s a simple concept.

    “Immigrants on food stamps is libertarian.” Call me thick, but the logic of this just isn’t penetrating. Can Cato explain its way out of this sack? Can you?

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Reg Cæsar

    I don't know Reg, I think Anon nailed you right in the kisser with that Cato Inst. video.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  188. @Reg Cæsar
    @Mr. Anon


    I didn’t know you had the authority to read them out of the movement.

     

    As I said in another comment above, they excommunicate themselves. It's a simple concept.

    "Immigrants on food stamps is libertarian." Call me thick, but the logic of this just isn't penetrating. Can Cato explain its way out of this sack? Can you?

    Replies: @Truth

    I don’t know Reg, I think Anon nailed you right in the kisser with that Cato Inst. video.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Truth



    I don’t know Reg, I think Anon nailed you right in the kisser with that Cato Inst. video.

     

    I didn't waste my bandwidth. If Cato supports subsidized immigration, they are not libertarians, they are frauds.
  189. @Reg Cæsar
    @Ron Unz

    What would Zuckerberg need Mexicans for, anyway? Watering the roof of Facebook's Gehry-rigged headquarters?

    His financial incentive points to India and China, not Latin America or Africa. Inasmuch as he supports free migration from the latter, it's either from the heart, or as a favor for others closer to the action.

    Replies: @Jefferson

    “What would Zuckerberg need Mexicans for, anyway? Watering the roof of Facebook’s Gehry-rigged headquarters?”

    I would not be surprised if there are more Nigerian computer programmers and engineers in Silicon Valley than there are Mexican computer programmers and engineers. Mexicans really do punch below their weight in the world of technology. Latin Americans in general punch below their weight in the world of technology. There is a reason the tech capital of Texas for example is Austin with it’s high percentage of White Gringos and Asians and not the heavily mediocre Mexican El Paso.

  190. 1035724

    WTF? I can’t finish my comment ? arschloch .

  191. @Reg Cæsar
    @Tom Saw


    …I’d vote for a economically progressive candidate who opposes mass immigration over a libertarian who supports it..
     
    [yawn] For the hundredth time, no one who supports mass immigration is a libertarian. Do even 5% of legal immigrants pay their own way?

    Beyond the issues of self-support and paying the same taxes the rest of us do (they don't), residence in the US is worth something, a lot of something, so why are we giving it away for free?

    Replies: @Kyle McKenna, @Tom Saw, @Mr. Anon, @MarkinLA

    Libertarians support the free movement of people. Their argument is that the welfare state should also be abolished so nobody gets any goodies including immigrants. In their simplistic world view they ignore the reality that in the industrial ages the vast majority of people don’t have total control over their lives and some social safety net must exist.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @MarkinLA


    …some social safety net must exist.
     
    A social safety net-- NB: as opposed to a poltical safety net-- does not conflict with libertarian principles as long as the state isn't involved. We used to have "friendly societies", and before that, the Church.

    Admitting aliens into a welfare state without so much as an entrance fee to allay costs and risks is in contrast quite illibertarian.

  192. Ezra Klein is doing what all the open borders donkeys are doing. When one stupid notion no longer works on the sheeple bray out another one without missing a beat. We have been through “racist”, “xenophobe”, ‘NAZI”, “nobody can pick strawberries like a Mexican”, “crops rotting in the fields”, “businessmen can’t find fry cooks or ditch diggers”, “Japan needs immigrants too”, and they have all run out of steam. In comes the new one – don’t we owe it to the rest of the world to reduce their poverty?

  193. @Drapetomaniac
    @Luke Lea

    "Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion"

    Would you mind pointing out the free trade trade you are talking about?

    It is as real as the free market economy - it doesn't exist.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    Free trade between rich and poor countries failed to meet this criterion

    Would you mind pointing out the free trade trade you are talking about?

    It is as real as the free market economy – it doesn’t exist.”

    Dear Draptomaniac, I am using free trade as short hand for freer trade, lower trade barriers, reduced tariffs, etc. It is all a matter of degree, just as it is always a matter of wages not the number of jobs. I can’t help it if the public discourse is sloppy in its discussion of these issues. How would you like to phrase it?

  194. @Harold
    “Open borders!” is just “Death to America!” in different words.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    “Open borders!” is just “Death to America!” in different words.

    Well put. I’ll use that. (And mass immigration is a slow death. . . )

  195. @Massimo Heitor

    Free trade with the impoverished masses of East Asia has the same potential to impoverish American workers as does open borders.
     
    The major argument against open borders is criticism of multiculturalism. That argument is not relevant to free trade.

    I support free trade and I don't see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers. Individuals may lose out by having to cut wage prices which may cost jobs, but often it creates jobs too. And I'm skeptical that the suffering caused by job loss may be exaggerated. The net effect seems strongly positive for almost everyone.

    Replies: @anon, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea

    “I support free trade and I don’t see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers.”

    Then explain how average real hourly wages have been stagnant or declining even as GDP per capita is rising. This is only possible if a small number of winners, whose income is derived from capital, are getting most of the gains. I believe the national income statistics as well as the logic supports this conclusion. Hope you do a rethink.

  196. @Massimo Heitor

    Free trade with the impoverished masses of East Asia has the same potential to impoverish American workers as does open borders.
     
    The major argument against open borders is criticism of multiculturalism. That argument is not relevant to free trade.

    I support free trade and I don't see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers. Individuals may lose out by having to cut wage prices which may cost jobs, but often it creates jobs too. And I'm skeptical that the suffering caused by job loss may be exaggerated. The net effect seems strongly positive for almost everyone.

    Replies: @anon, @Luke Lea, @Luke Lea

    “I support free trade and I don’t see a strong argument against it. The number and magnitude of winners seems to greatly outweigh the number and magnitude of losers.”

    Then explain how average real hourly wages have been stagnant or declining even as GDP per capita is rising. This is only possible if a small number of winners, whose income is derived from capital, are getting most of the gain, and then some. I.e. the economic pie is being redistributed. It is a bigger pie thanks to trade but ordinary workers’ shares are smaller not only relatively but absolutely. I believe the national income statistics as well as logic supports this conclusion. As does modern H-O trade theory. Hope you do a rethink. World Trade and Payments by Caves and Jones is the classic teaching text.

  197. @Wilkey
    @Kevin O'Keeffe

    There don't need to be mass deportations. There needs to be enforcement of the law. Deny them drivers licenses. Deny them welfare benefits. Deny their kids access to public schools (aka "free daycare"). Heavily fine any employer caught hiring them.

    Our government manages to be quite effective and efficient when it wants to be. Odd that is supposedly can't be when it comes to securing our borders.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    @Kevin O’Keeffe
    There don’t need to be mass deportations. There needs to be enforcement of the law. Deny them drivers licenses. Deny them welfare benefits. Deny their kids access to public schools (aka “free daycare”).

    Better yet, have a biometric national ID required for employment, to cash a check or use a credit card. If you make it next to impossible to live and work in this society without a foolproof form of ID illegals will voluntarily return to their native lands. Such a national ID is, it seems to me, the only realistic way to enforce our immigration laws. would be much more effective than a fence or a wall. We have the technology to do it right now, quickly, at minimal cost. If this were war time inside of two years. So maybe we should declare war against illegal immigration? Like the war on drugs, only better.

  198. @24AheadDotCom
    @JerseyGuy

    No, what's shocking is how vulnerable Ezra has been throughout his entire short career and how little those who should oppose him have been able to show him wrong about anything. If you guys (speaking very generally) had helped me discredit him years ago he wouldn't be saying the things he does now and having the impact he has.

    As for Sanders, that interview is great and useful. But, he still supports mass legalization. If leading opponents of that weren't unintelligent and corrupt, they could move him to oppose mass legalization. Amnesty supporters managed to get Hillary's replacement to switch from being OK to being bad on amnesty within just a matter of days, but leading amnesty opponents are too corrupt and too unintelligent to be able to do the opposite with Hillary or even easier ones like Sanders.

    If you're smart and sane enough to realize there's a problem, then don't enable those leading amnesty opponents. Get in their faces and demand they finally do their jobs.

    Replies: @Luke Lea

    As for Sanders, that interview is great and useful. But, he still supports mass legalization.

    I’d support mass legalization in return for an across-the-board moratorium (pause, time-out) until we can assimilate and integrate the tens of millions of immigrants, legal as well as illegal, who are already in this country, the great majority from cultures and societies with no, or very weak, democratic traditions.

    Wouldn’t you? Eleven million is less than a decade’s worth of legal immigration, which has been going on and is set to continue going on decade after decade.

    Amnesty for a moratorium, yes! A grand bargain.

  199. @MarkinLA
    @Reg Cæsar

    Libertarians support the free movement of people. Their argument is that the welfare state should also be abolished so nobody gets any goodies including immigrants. In their simplistic world view they ignore the reality that in the industrial ages the vast majority of people don't have total control over their lives and some social safety net must exist.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    …some social safety net must exist.

    A social safety net– NB: as opposed to a poltical safety net– does not conflict with libertarian principles as long as the state isn’t involved. We used to have “friendly societies”, and before that, the Church.

    Admitting aliens into a welfare state without so much as an entrance fee to allay costs and risks is in contrast quite illibertarian.

  200. @Truth
    @Reg Cæsar

    I don't know Reg, I think Anon nailed you right in the kisser with that Cato Inst. video.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I don’t know Reg, I think Anon nailed you right in the kisser with that Cato Inst. video.

    I didn’t waste my bandwidth. If Cato supports subsidized immigration, they are not libertarians, they are frauds.

  201. @rod1963
    @JohnnyWalker123

    I can't think of a major MSM type for either side that isn't a mouthpiece for the oligarchy. So it pretty much guarantees that Klein will keep the party line no matter what.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    Lou Dobbs maybe.

    Unfortunately, he got fired.

  202. @e
    Now, if Bernie had just said, "The Koch brothers AND Mark Zuckerberg would love" lower wages, I'd be okay with that--showing that both the left and the right are in league against the working class and the middle class. I noticed that he didn't, however.

    Replies: @timothy, @Jesse, @Nathan Wartooth, @IBC, @Ash

    Ask him, I am 99.99999% sure he would agree with you.

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