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Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Vikings Weren't European
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The actual new scientific study the AJC is reporting on is fun:

But in results published Wednesday in Nature, scientists presented what they think are new answers to this mystery. By analyzing the imprint of a rare solar storm in tree rings from wood found at the Canadian site, scientists have decisively pinned down when Norse explorers were in Newfoundland: the year A.D. 1021, or exactly 1,000 years ago.

To be precise, they pinned down that Vikings cut some trees down in Newfoundland with a metal axe exactly 1,000 years ago this year. They may well have also been the New World earlier and or later. But, we now know for sure they were there in 1021.

“It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said, adding that establishing exact dates helps mark a turning point in the history of human movement around the planet.

Once again, we now have a precise data for the oldest known crossing of the Atlantic (and back) for which we have both literary and archaeological evidence. I’d hardly be surprised if people had previously made one way crossings of the Atlantic (e.g., Greenland Eskimos in kayaks have washed up in Norway in more recent centuries) but never gotten home.

To determine when the site was occupied with greater precision, Dee and his colleagues analyzed three pieces of wood from L’Anse aux Meadows. Each piece, originating from a different tree and still bearing its outer bark, had been cleanly cut with a metal tool, perhaps an ax. That’s a giveaway this wood was cleaved by Vikings, said Margot Kuitems, an archaeologist at the University of Groningen, and a member of the team.

“The local people didn’t use metal tools,” she said.

Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting. Andean Indians were smelting bronze and Mexican Indians appeared to be on the verge of a Bronze Age in 1492, but American and Canadian Indians lagged. (Interestingly, Pacific Northwest Indians made use of Japanese iron that washed up in shipwrecks.)

… Only a fleeting fraction is radioactive carbon 14, also called radiocarbon. That isotope of carbon is produced when cosmic rays — high-energy particles from the sun or beyond the solar system — interact with atoms in Earth’s atmosphere.

Scientists who study cosmic rays used to think that these particles arrived in a relatively constant barrage, meaning that the ratio of carbon 14 to carbon 12 in the atmosphere has largely remained steady over time. But then in 2012, researchers found two cedar trees in Japan that recorded inexplicably high levels of radiocarbon in their rings dating A.D. 774 to 775. That spike is now known as a Miyake event for its discoverer, Fusa Miyake, a cosmic ray physicist at Nagoya University in Japan. Other Miyake events have since been spotted in tree ring records, but they remain exceedingly rare.

But it just so happened that another Miyake event occurred during the Viking Age, in A.D. 992 to 993. Trees found worldwide record an uptick in carbon 14 around that time, and wood found at L’Anse aux Meadows should be no exception. In the hopes of pinning down the age of the Americas’ only confirmed Viking settlement, Dee and his colleagues turned to the unlikely marriage of dendrochronology — the study of tree rings — and astrophysics.

Good work.

 
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  1. “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said

    Scientist is first to prove a negative!

    • Agree: Charon, Mr. Anon
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Polistra


    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said.
     
    That's the sort of statement that anthropologists are always making - statements they can't possibly know to be true or not.

    Replies: @Mr Mox

    , @Ben tillman
    @Polistra

    I had the same general idea, but you stated it better than I would have. Well said.

    , @James J O'Meara
    @Polistra

    "You can't prove a negative" is racist (the word "negative" is a dogwhistle for you know what) and sexist (in patriarchic phallocentrism the feminine is mythologized as a "negative" or "absence").

    From yesterday:
    “This Idea of Intellectual Debate and Rigor as the Pinnacle of Intellectualism Comes from a World in Which White Men Dominated"

    , @Muggles
    @Polistra


    Scientist is first to prove a negative!
     
    Mathematicians can prove negative statements. Given the modern and highly abstract intersections between science and math at the extreme ends of measurements, one wonders if negatives about "science" can be proven. Some contemporary "science" appears to largely be math extrapolations.

    There's a question for the philosophy of science departments. Probably has been done a lot.

    Given the ACJ's odd headline suggesting that Vikings weren't European, I am wondering what they would say they were?

    Wakandaians who lost their melanin from being so far north? That could explain their reputation for looting and stealing, but that's just racist Viking stereotyping...
    , @TomSchmidt
    @Polistra

    Not even. He missed this:
    https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2019/05/the-mysterious-ancient-underwater-roman-relics-of-brazil/


    In the southeast region of the country of Brazil lies Guanabara Bay, off the coast of the major metropolis of Rio de Janeiro. It is the second largest bay in Brazil, but other than that there is nothing particularly special about it other than perhaps the large amount of pollution here. However, lying approximately 15 miles offshore, buried down in 100 feet of water across an area around the size of three tennis courts is a rather strange oddity. Here scattered along the bottom are various relics from ancient Rome, far from where they have any business being, and which have remained a baffling historical anomaly and conundrum that remains unsolved. ...

    It wasn’t long before a diver named Jose Roberto Teixeira actually produced two of the strange artifacts, which were found to be a type of tall, tapered ceramic jars with two handles called amphorae, typically used by the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Phoenicians to carry around all manner of things such as wine, oil, water or grain during long sea voyages. This was certainly a rather odd thing to be pulled up from Guanabara Bay, as the first known European presence in Brazil is thought to date back to 1500, when Portuguese navigator Pedro Alvares Cabral reached these shores.
     
  2. Only someone educated in the American education system could write a whopper of a headline like that.

    • Agree: Charon, JimDandy, Ben tillman
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @Joe Paluka


    Only someone educated in the American education system could write a whopper of a headline like that.
     
    Of course everyone knows that Vikings were Europeans.......I mean......they come from Switzerland, right?
    , @Hannah Katz
    @Joe Paluka

    The Atlanta Urinal Constipation is an excellent newspaper... for training puppies and lining bird cages. Much like virtually all major newspapers.

    , @Prester John
    @Joe Paluka

    The Vikings were from Minnesota, no?

    , @Barbarossa
    @Joe Paluka

    I'm so disappointed...I thought we were going to find out that the Vikings were actually black.

    #BVM - Black Vikings Matter

  3. Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Europeans.

    Why are Americans so bad at geography?

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Trelane

    Geography is no match for our remit: bashing European people and their descendants wherever and whenever.

    Replies: @James J O'Meara

    , @NorthOfTheOneOhOne
    @Trelane

    I'm guessing it originally read "Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Columbus" and they had to change it lest they upset certain people, but couldn't figure out how.

    Replies: @Walker65, @AndrewR, @Rapparee

    , @AndrewR
    @Trelane

    Because we don't need to know a lot of geography, in practical terms

  4. Anonymous[950] • Disclaimer says:

    I guess it’s my bad for not keeping notes, but I seem to remember, in my internets travels, that Viking paraphernalia and/or bone fragments and such, have already been discovered bearing apparent proof of Western Europeans in the Carolinas, as well as the Illinois and Great Lakes areas, dating past 15,000 years. Some have even claimed evidence of Western Europeans trading with Indians n the Great Lakes region, and then it seemed, quite suddenly, Western Europeans “disappeared.”

    Does anyone here with better note-taking and citation gathering talent process anything to back me up on things I recall having happened to read over the past ten years?

    • Replies: @gcochran
    @Anonymous

    No such evidence has been found.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Anonymous

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-eyed_people

    There used to be a guy going around New England giving tours of old root cellars, which he maintained were built in a Viking style. I have no idea if there is anything to this.

    It ain't much, but that's what I've heard of.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Ghost of Bull Moose

    , @Curle
    @Anonymous

    http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/other_artifacts.htm

  5. But many questions remain about L’Anse aux Meadows: Who exactly settled it? Why?

    Egill Bjarnason in How Iceland Changed the World (2021):

    Historians have speculated that Newfoundland’s L’Anse aux Meadows served as a base for exploration or a temporary boat repair facility when Norse travelers went to trade with Native Americans in the Canadian Arctic. That means Icelanders did not simply stumble upon North America once– they traveled there regularly and used it as a stopover on their way to other trading posts.

    Iwo Jima for longboats. This makes sense when you look at maps which focus on sea rather than land:

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Reg Cæsar

    The men who had the urge--and developed the ability--to explore completely unknown places like that, over a thousand years ago, were as different from our own Ruling Class as day is from night.

    PS: was the Mississippi River ever really connected to the Hudson Bay back then? That's a new one on me. Would it even have been a river in that case?

    Replies: @International Jew

  6. The Vikings’ homeland was pretty European back in 1021. It’s doing its best to change that forever.

    • Agree: Charon
  7. This was good work, indeed—while a lot of funding will likely be siphoned off to understanding the war on hair, there are really interesting finds still being made about the human past in archaeology, anthropology, and biology. Thank God for those slightly autistic driven types who can do deep dives into their research and not go insane like the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @John Milton’s Ghost

    The study was done in the Netherlands.

    We wuz Norsemen.

  8. “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    Per usual, context is required.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42185-y

    Perhaps they simply didn’t see the need to use it because they were fine with what they had, or were not compelled by an environmental need to improve or innovate. South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Corvinus


    South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.
     
    Was about to correct some of the factual errors in this brief passage when I suddenly noticed who wrote it.

    Replies: @duncsbaby, @Rob McX, @Corvinus

    , @Calvin Hobbes
    @Corvinus


    South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.
     
    And maybe some people are not driven to work (officially) because they can get by just fine on welfare (and tax-free side hustles).
    , @Whiskey
    @Corvinus

    Indians or native peoples were low IQ cannibals, for the most part. Pretty much most of the Americas were cannibals. The only parts that were not were the Pacific Coast, Rockies, and the Northeast down to the Carolinas. All with low population densities and much game and hunter-gatherer primitives. Everywhere else: the American Southwest, the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys, the Gulf Coast, the Caribbean, and of course Mexico and Central America, the primary food source of the natives ... was other natives.

    Even the Aztecs had no real writing, not even clay tablets, no real intensive cultivation of corn, or cacao, or tobacco. It took pretty much 8,000 years in fits and starts for the people in the Valley of Mexico according the archeological evidence to domestic corn to even a minimally useful state. Meanwhile the Middle East went from initial cultivation to truly massive efforts in that area for wheat, barley, fermentation, domestication of chickens, cats, dogs, horses, oxen, pretty much any animal that could be useful.

    American Indians were then low IQ people of limited ability and usefulness to create or maintain a complex civilization always requiring more: more power, more food, more energy. As Mark Twain notably commented, no Indian ever did any lick of work, ever.

    Replies: @Rob, @Corvinus

    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus must prepare his meals in stone pots and pans . . .

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @Nachum
    @Corvinus

    Wheels don't make much sense if you don't have roads, even unpaved ones. The Andes aren't a very good place for roads. So they had llama toys with wheels for kids, but didn't use them for transport, because an actual llama did the work much better.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  9. Off-topic, but important. New COVID variant found in Russia is even more contagious and deadly than the Delta Variant. Anthony Fauci is about the announce a new prolonged quarantine.

    • Replies: @teo toon
    @Anonymous

    Bioweapon attack...by USA,Inc.?

  10. @Trelane

    Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Europeans.
     
    Why are Americans so bad at geography?

    Replies: @Polistra, @NorthOfTheOneOhOne, @AndrewR

    Geography is no match for our remit: bashing European people and their descendants wherever and whenever.

    • Replies: @James J O'Meara
    @Polistra

    Remember the good old days, when the MSM would just dismiss this as "more Russian misinformation"?

  11. @Corvinus
    “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    Per usual, context is required.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42185-y

    Perhaps they simply didn’t see the need to use it because they were fine with what they had, or were not compelled by an environmental need to improve or innovate. South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Calvin Hobbes, @Whiskey, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Nachum

    South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    Was about to correct some of the factual errors in this brief passage when I suddenly noticed who wrote it.

    • Agree: duncsbaby
    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @Polistra

    It's best to just ignore and move on (using alternate means of transport if necessary).

    , @Rob McX
    @Polistra

    Good thing we Europeans never invented boats or walking, or the wheel would still be just a pipe dream for us.

    , @Corvinus
    @Polistra

    “Was about to correct some of the factual errors in this brief passage when I suddenly noticed who wrote it.“

    Put up or shut up.

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1322&context=byusq

  12. @Trelane

    Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Europeans.
     
    Why are Americans so bad at geography?

    Replies: @Polistra, @NorthOfTheOneOhOne, @AndrewR

    I’m guessing it originally read “Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Columbus” and they had to change it lest they upset certain people, but couldn’t figure out how.

    • Replies: @Walker65
    @NorthOfTheOneOhOne

    Excellent point!

    , @AndrewR
    @NorthOfTheOneOhOne

    Your hypothesis seems probable. It's sad our society is more and more catering to 70 IQ histrionic people, but here we are.

    , @Rapparee
    @NorthOfTheOneOhOne

    The offense would likely remain, if it were widely known that, like Columbus after him, Leif Erikson was a Catholic missionary: https://ucatholic.com/blog/leif-erikson-the-first-person-to-reach-north-america-was-a-catholic-viking/

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

  13. @John Milton’s Ghost
    This was good work, indeed—while a lot of funding will likely be siphoned off to understanding the war on hair, there are really interesting finds still being made about the human past in archaeology, anthropology, and biology. Thank God for those slightly autistic driven types who can do deep dives into their research and not go insane like the rest of the world.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    The study was done in the Netherlands.

    We wuz Norsemen.

  14. @Reg Cæsar

    But many questions remain about L’Anse aux Meadows: Who exactly settled it? Why?
     
    Egill Bjarnason in How Iceland Changed the World (2021):

    Historians have speculated that Newfoundland's L'Anse aux Meadows served as a base for exploration or a temporary boat repair facility when Norse travelers went to trade with Native Americans in the Canadian Arctic. That means Icelanders did not simply stumble upon North America once-- they traveled there regularly and used it as a stopover on their way to other trading posts.
     
    Iwo Jima for longboats. This makes sense when you look at maps which focus on sea rather than land:








    http://www.emersonkent.com/images/map_viking_voyages.jpg

    https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/b10d0aee1d7a92ad134c831cc89bf0de6466adaf/500px/3-Figure1-1.png


    https://premodernexplorationatstfx.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/screen-shot-2015-11-12-at-2-21-36-pm.png

    Replies: @Polistra

    The men who had the urge–and developed the ability–to explore completely unknown places like that, over a thousand years ago, were as different from our own Ruling Class as day is from night.

    PS: was the Mississippi River ever really connected to the Hudson Bay back then? That’s a new one on me. Would it even have been a river in that case?

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @Polistra

    No, that's the Red River of the North. It's possible that its headwaters are close to headwaters of the Mississippi, but it would be impossible for the two to be the same river; which way would it flow? But there might be a swamp, or more likely an aquifer, that, technically, connects the Mississippi and the Red River.

    Now just outside the south entrance to Yellowstone National Park there's a small swampy lake that's called Two Ocean Lake, and a roadside sign explains that this lake feeds both the Snake River and the Missouri River. Which is sorta cool, and of course I took a picture when I was there, but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.

    I believe there's another lake like that on California State Highway 4 in the Sierra Nevada.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Flip, @Reg Cæsar

  15. Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Vikings Weren’t European

    There is some dispute about exactly what this Europe thing is:

    https://multimedia-english.com/videos/esl/europe-is-a-french-country-53

    Maybe Europe is a French country ?

  16. The big question to me is why the Viking contact to the New World didn’t set off the big wave of epidemics that the later Columbian contact did?

    Were Vikings microbially cleaner than Mediterraneans?

    Or maybe in those colder northern climes, disease can’t propagate like it can in the Caribbean?

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn’t sufficient?

    Or a combination?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Almost Missouri


    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn’t sufficient?
     
    Norsemen lived in Greenland for centuries without meeting an Eskimo Inuit. It's 900+ miles from Godthåb (Nuuk) to Thule (Qaanaaq), with nothing of note in-between. They were too far apart.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Paleo Liberal

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Almost Missouri

    The big wave of epidemics never happened.

    It was a conspiracy by American Indian medicine men and their chiefs to control their people. They made them all go around in masks and stay home in their teepees. The number of deaths was exaggerated, and it was mostly the elderly who died, people over 30, who already had lost all their teeth and were starving anyway. No dentistry then.

    As usual, the White Man was blamed.

    Replies: @kihowi, @Frau Katze

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Almost Missouri

    Probably all of those reasons.

    Also, unlike the Spaniards, the Norse seem to have made only war and not love with the local "skraalings." http://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/02/20/old-world-vs-new-the-first-battles-between-native-north-americans-and-europeans/

    But this seems like one of the great "what ifs" of history. If the Viking colonies had taken permanent root in the Middle Ages, would there have eventually been a great Nordic empire straddling the continent that would have preempted the whole history of English and Spanish America?

    Or, because the Middle Age Vikings were so less numerous and industrially advanced, would they just have served as a conduit for slowly introducing European technology and ideas (and pathogens) to the natives. Who might have then adapted to all these imports to create their own more organized and advanced empire (like Mejii Japan) that could compete with the Europeans.

    Or maybe they would have eventually mixed into some kind of Viking-Indian mestizo race. In which case Canada would now be Nordic Mexico. Weird.

    Replies: @Corn

    , @J.Ross
    @Almost Missouri

    All of the previous replies plus clean cold versus filthy sweaty festering humid hot areas.

    , @Lurker
    @Almost Missouri

    Maybe the later, larger, sailing ships incubated all sorts of unhealthiness with their larger crews and unhygenic conditions? While the basic Viking longboat with it's spartan conditions weeded all the sickly guys on long trips?

    Replies: @David

    , @Frau Katze
    @Almost Missouri

    It took a while to get smallpox to Mexico, it arrived while Cortes was fighting the Aztecs in the 1520’s.

    You needed someone on the voyage to be carrying the disease, and other people who could keep the virus alive (ie were not immune) for the six week trip. No obviously ill person would have been taken, so you’d need someone in the stage between infection and symptoms.

    That took about 30 years and quite a few voyages. And their ships were larger than the Viking ships, making it easier to fit the criteria.

    Note that cholera did not get carried from India to Europe in the days of sail. The trip was so long that any sufferers either recovered or died en route. That changed with development of steamships.

  17. @Corvinus
    “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    Per usual, context is required.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42185-y

    Perhaps they simply didn’t see the need to use it because they were fine with what they had, or were not compelled by an environmental need to improve or innovate. South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Calvin Hobbes, @Whiskey, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Nachum

    South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    And maybe some people are not driven to work (officially) because they can get by just fine on welfare (and tax-free side hustles).

  18. @Almost Missouri
    The big question to me is why the Viking contact to the New World didn't set off the big wave of epidemics that the later Columbian contact did?

    Were Vikings microbially cleaner than Mediterraneans?

    Or maybe in those colder northern climes, disease can't propagate like it can in the Caribbean?

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn't sufficient?

    Or a combination?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666, @J.Ross, @Lurker, @Frau Katze

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn’t sufficient?

    Norsemen lived in Greenland for centuries without meeting an Eskimo Inuit. It’s 900+ miles from Godthåb (Nuuk) to Thule (Qaanaaq), with nothing of note in-between. They were too far apart.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Reg Cæsar

    No one lived on Newfoundland when Vikings arrived?

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    , @Paleo Liberal
    @Reg Cæsar

    Eric the Red was in Greenland long before the Inuit.

    The Inuit came later, and could handle the Little Ice Age better than the Vikings and the local Indians.

  19. Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior…

    That’s why Isle Royale is in Michigan rather than much closer Ontario or Minnesota. With the UP, it was a consolation prize in the Toledo War of 1835.

  20. @Anonymous
    I guess it’s my bad for not keeping notes, but I seem to remember, in my internets travels, that Viking paraphernalia and/or bone fragments and such, have already been discovered bearing apparent proof of Western Europeans in the Carolinas, as well as the Illinois and Great Lakes areas, dating past 15,000 years. Some have even claimed evidence of Western Europeans trading with Indians n the Great Lakes region, and then it seemed, quite suddenly, Western Europeans "disappeared."

    Does anyone here with better note-taking and citation gathering talent process anything to back me up on things I recall having happened to read over the past ten years?

    Replies: @gcochran, @Almost Missouri, @Curle

    No such evidence has been found.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @gcochran


    No such evidence has been found.
     
    Uh… you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, I’m afraid.

    Suffice to say, the current story of the American Indian, is just that. A story.

    Mainstream media has been generally ignoring evidence for years.

    Here’s a taste…

    https://www.rt.com/news/stone-age-america-archaeologists-445/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

    https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/cactus-hill-archaeological-site/

    https://sciencenordic.com/anthropology-archaeology-denmark/dna-links-native-americans-with-europeans/1393344

  21. @Joe Paluka
    Only someone educated in the American education system could write a whopper of a headline like that.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hannah Katz, @Prester John, @Barbarossa

    Only someone educated in the American education system could write a whopper of a headline like that.

    Of course everyone knows that Vikings were Europeans…….I mean……they come from Switzerland, right?

  22. @Polistra

    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said
     
    Scientist is first to prove a negative!

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ben tillman, @James J O'Meara, @Muggles, @TomSchmidt

    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said.

    That’s the sort of statement that anthropologists are always making – statements they can’t possibly know to be true or not.

    • Replies: @Mr Mox
    @Mr. Anon


    That’s the sort of statement that anthropologists are always making – statements they can’t possibly know to be true or not.

     

    Statements often have to pass through a journalist filter before we see them.

    Journalists are not interested in anthropologists' "We can't tell for sure..." statements. They want you to spin a lengthy yarn from a single arrow point, lodged in a two thousand year old pelvis.

    Replies: @Not Raul

  23. Interestingly, Pacific Northwest Indians made use of Japanese iron that washed up in shipwrecks

    Another piece of evidence for the theory that innovations only difuse to cultures that could have invented them on their own. Finding metallic iron useful does not give stone age peoples, even ones settled into permanent villages where the work of provisioning food for a family takes only a few weeks of effort. Granted, they work near-nonstop during the salmon run. Maybe a bronze age people would figure out “there must be other ores besides copper and tin/arsenic. Let’s go look!” and discover ores for other metals, and then figure out how to reduce the oxide/sulfide metal into metally stuff.

    Nothing about iron suggests iron ore. I mean, you use iron. Do you know where to get a high quality ore? What conditions to heat it in? How to work harden it? I don’t and i am a tool using primate of a tribe that used to produce iron and steel.

    Maybe the modern world is an exception? Well… every so often one sees an article about “African tech entrepreneurs. They are doing things like opening internet cafes or installing wireless hotspots, or building an that already exists, but for Africa. They are never tech entrepreneurs. They don’t have designs for chips that they are going to produce in African fabs. They haven’t come up with an OLED screen tech that Africans are going to make, even from imported materials. They have an app that will run on Chinese smartphones that are on Chinese-built cell phone towers… At African tech levels, there are no features of a silicon chip that suggest how to make one.

    Like if aliens came, and we stormed the ship and got a computer, could we figure it out and make copies? Any kind of Silicon? Except for single atom-thick flat silicone, yes. Maybe. Depends on the feature size. If we really tried, though, like put Intel on it without a diversity mandate and a blank check? We could probably copy it. Graphene? Depends, I’ll give this a maybe. Not sure we know how to keep the doping atoms from diffusing. Making “wires” on a near-perfect conductor. Just knowing if it has to be kept very cold to work would be great. Having a working graphene CPU would go a long way towards telling us how to make our own. We could put it in an electron microscope and learn a ton.

    Quantum? Depends on if it’s quantum “like cool the helium nuclei to 0.25 K”, quantum like “make 5 atom clumps of metallic hydrogen every…”, or quantum like “suspend the nano-neutronium tetrahedra over the quantum gravity nullification flux capacitor (flux capacitors are the future) The first, we could probably figure out. Hell, just having one would tell us if they were worth having. The second, we’d at least now know metallic hydrogen is both stable at room temperature and useful. The third? Maybe it would tell us there is a unification of general relativity and QM with realistic applications. Heck, just knowing QM is true would be worth knowing. Maybe the real truth is quaternion functions, not merely real and imaginary, but a whole two other forms of imaginary! Less jokingly, has anyone tried to do QM with quaternions, like people used to do Maxwell’s equations in quaternionic form?

    I know, Physicist Dave, QM — it’s perfect. But it’s so weird.., why do things propagate like waves, then detected as if they were particles? How do it know it’s being detected? Please don’t explain! I’m not smart enough to understand the answer. If a particle’s state is “detected by 10 neighbors, do the all detect the same state at a time? Do we see a macroscopic “consensus” where all the particles “agree” to be in their particular locations? Are all the atoms in a rock interacting and detecting themselves into rocky one-ness?

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Rob


    Like if aliens came, and we stormed the ship and got a computer, could we figure it out and make copies?
     
    It is possible that what you describe could go more like this:

    We study the ship hard, and it takes a long time and great effort to even see how its components are made. When we do work that out, it is like when Watson and Crick figured out the structure of DNA. We know that design now, but it is taking us a very long time to develop all the possible ways we can make use of it, because God was the engineer, and we are not God.

    Someone said that if alien technology were sufficiently advanced, it would seem no different to us than magic or a miracle or Godlike. I happen to believe in God and miracles. The very existence of the Universe with its natural, mathematical laws, and our very consciousness, is a giant miracle with infinite miracles contained within.

    Those Pacific Northwest Indians simply used the washed up iron the way they probably used flint to make arrowheads, as a natural resource "from God," which, in a way, it was. Think about it. They were as dumb as we would be in the face of such alien technology.

    , @IHTG
    @Rob

    Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?

    , @James J O'Meara
    @Rob

    "why do things propagate like waves, then detected as if they were particles? How do it know it’s being detected? Please don’t explain! I’m not smart enough to understand the answer. If a particle’s state is “detected by 10 neighbors, do the all detect the same state at a time? Do we see a macroscopic “consensus” where all the particles “agree” to be in their particular locations? Are all the atoms in a rock interacting and detecting themselves into rocky one-ness?"

    Read Bernardo Kastrup. People used to read Schopenhauer and would have known the answers to all that after QM appeared. Unfortunately, Hegel's nonsense triumphed instead, making it impossible to understand modern physics, -- or anything -- as well as "gifting" us with Marx and Nietzsche/Hitler, resulting in 100s of millions of deaths the the destruction of the West.

  24. a problem for the warmists: vikings live in greenland for 500 years. what happened to them? it got too cold. they died or left.

  25. Apparently membership in the European Economic Area is no longer enough to qualify a country as European- Norway is not in the EU, so people from there aren’t “European” now. And Denmark is definitely part of the EU’s awkward squad, so they aren’t Good Europeans.

  26. Maybe the Vikings could do like the Jews and decide they’re not white.

  27. Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Europeans

    Don’t laugh. Antifa retards will use this as absolute PROOF whitey has no right to Norway or Canada.

    And shouldn’t it be “Norse landed…”? Norse is the ethnic group, viking is a job description. As: “The Irish Coast needs a bit of attention, Olaf, so let’s all go a-viking!”

    Or have they changed that too?

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Franz

    "Antifa retards", you are being redundant

  28. @Reg Cæsar
    @Almost Missouri


    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn’t sufficient?
     
    Norsemen lived in Greenland for centuries without meeting an Eskimo Inuit. It's 900+ miles from Godthåb (Nuuk) to Thule (Qaanaaq), with nothing of note in-between. They were too far apart.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Paleo Liberal

    No one lived on Newfoundland when Vikings arrived?

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    @Almost Missouri

    Skraelings (Norse word for Indians)

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted

  29. @Anonymous
    I guess it’s my bad for not keeping notes, but I seem to remember, in my internets travels, that Viking paraphernalia and/or bone fragments and such, have already been discovered bearing apparent proof of Western Europeans in the Carolinas, as well as the Illinois and Great Lakes areas, dating past 15,000 years. Some have even claimed evidence of Western Europeans trading with Indians n the Great Lakes region, and then it seemed, quite suddenly, Western Europeans "disappeared."

    Does anyone here with better note-taking and citation gathering talent process anything to back me up on things I recall having happened to read over the past ten years?

    Replies: @gcochran, @Almost Missouri, @Curle

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-eyed_people

    There used to be a guy going around New England giving tours of old root cellars, which he maintained were built in a Viking style. I have no idea if there is anything to this.

    It ain’t much, but that’s what I’ve heard of.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Almost Missouri


    There used to be a guy going around New England giving tours of old root cellars, which he maintained were built in a Viking style.
     
    Eben Norton Horsford!


    Obituary. EBEN NORTON HORSFORD.

    Why Is There A Statue of Leif Erikson On Commonwealth Avenue?

    https://wgbh.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/4abf7f2/2147483647/strip/true/crop/5485x2992+6+493/resize/990x540!/format/jpg/quality/70/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwgbh-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F0d%2F13%2F53462cb14cb5aad320648ab63d3e%2Fdsc-7933.jpg
    , @Ghost of Bull Moose
    @Almost Missouri

    "Hey honey, our anniversary is coming up. Want to go on a tour of old root cellars?"

  30. @Almost Missouri
    The big question to me is why the Viking contact to the New World didn't set off the big wave of epidemics that the later Columbian contact did?

    Were Vikings microbially cleaner than Mediterraneans?

    Or maybe in those colder northern climes, disease can't propagate like it can in the Caribbean?

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn't sufficient?

    Or a combination?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666, @J.Ross, @Lurker, @Frau Katze

    The big wave of epidemics never happened.

    It was a conspiracy by American Indian medicine men and their chiefs to control their people. They made them all go around in masks and stay home in their teepees. The number of deaths was exaggerated, and it was mostly the elderly who died, people over 30, who already had lost all their teeth and were starving anyway. No dentistry then.

    As usual, the White Man was blamed.

    • Replies: @kihowi
    @Buzz Mohawk

    We know it was principally you who shamed Steve into silence after his initial Panicky Pete phase, but now you're just being cruel.

    , @Frau Katze
    @Buzz Mohawk

    You’re wrong. Cortes would not have won the war with the Aztecs without smallpox. It arrived just in time.

    Consider: the Europeans had horses and steel swords but were greatly outnumbered. They had some exceedingly primitive firearms.

    Cortes made an alliance with a coastal group who were angry with incessant Aztec demands for people to sacrifice. That alliance allowed his tiny group to get a toehold but he was eventually driven back to the coast. When he got there, smallpox had arrived.

    I don’t think it killed most of the natives in the first encounter. But it did kill enough Aztecs, including the new leader who ousted Montezuma to tip the balance to Cortes and his allies. He successfully stopped the human sacrifice.

    (The natives must have found Christianity rather dull compared to the old time religion.)

    It took repeated diseases to make a big difference. About a century.

    When African slaves were brought they came with a virulent strain of malaria and yellow fever. They required a type of mosquito that required warm temperatures.

    The natives at high altitudes survived best. Note that Europeans were themselves susceptible to yellow fever and the most virulent strain of malaria.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Rob

  31. @Almost Missouri
    @Reg Cæsar

    No one lived on Newfoundland when Vikings arrived?

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    Skraelings (Norse word for Indians)

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    @Dutch Boy

    Them old saily bois knew exactly what it was they were looking at.
    Skraelingr= [more or less is equal to] "Lapps"[Saami].
    IE the people of the rags and tatters. Ignorant of the loom, wearers of animal pelts. Almost as bad as tinks.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqv6pPmHObY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfSgb0irTbY

    I don't know how the Americans (in their tribes) might have got on with the Norwegians, still less the Gael.
    But at least the less differential technological edge back then might have blunted the INEVITABLE apocalypse of disease, horses and metal.
    Us, the chinese/japs, or even the Russian Empire. Take your pick of overlords.

    Keep up at the back there, boyos.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  32. A bit like the big book a couple of years ago about the Chinese reached the West Coast in the early 1400s. I read about that when I was a kid in Louis L’amour novels.

  33. Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Vikings Weren’t European

    Wait a minute… The AJC/NYT is correct! The Vikings settled Vinland from Greenland and Iceland. They were no more “European” than the Celts or the Anglo-Saxo-Jutes on the British isle. Indeed, less so.
    They were ex-Europeans.

    Geologically, they were already North Americans when they left:

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Reg Cæsar

    Iceland has a famous bridge between North America and Europe, at least the plates.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

  34. @Anonymous
    I guess it’s my bad for not keeping notes, but I seem to remember, in my internets travels, that Viking paraphernalia and/or bone fragments and such, have already been discovered bearing apparent proof of Western Europeans in the Carolinas, as well as the Illinois and Great Lakes areas, dating past 15,000 years. Some have even claimed evidence of Western Europeans trading with Indians n the Great Lakes region, and then it seemed, quite suddenly, Western Europeans "disappeared."

    Does anyone here with better note-taking and citation gathering talent process anything to back me up on things I recall having happened to read over the past ten years?

    Replies: @gcochran, @Almost Missouri, @Curle

  35. I suspect the AJC tweeter isn’t all that up on geography, or much else, but if pressed, I suspect they know where the Vikings were from, more or less.

    I think the error is just a reflex, or trigger-reaction, in the liberal mind: “Interesting news item therefore… white people overrated and BAD.”

  36. And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…

    Crazy how pressed ppl get when you tell them white folks didn’t actually discover America

    The Viking likely got their asses handed to them by a war party and went back home with cool stories just like jerkoff southerners did.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Ebony Obelisk


    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…
     
    The “indigenous people” got here by the amazing effort of walking across a land bridge. When they arrived they had no idea whatsoever that they had just crossed from one major continent to another. Columbus was a bit mistaken about where he was, but he arrived here by traversing thousands of miles of open ocean. The two different ways of “discovery” were not remotely comparable. I guarantee that couldn’t accomplish Columbuses feat today, even knowing that America is here, and with maps to show you how to get here.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Twinkie

    , @peterike
    @Ebony Obelisk


    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so… Crazy how pressed ppl get when you tell them white folks didn’t actually discover America
     
    But the indigenous people didn't know they were in America. They had no knowledge of the wider world. It's like not seeing the forest for the trees.

    Similarly, Vikings and whoever else may have been dabbling around in North America for centuries. Doesn't matter, because it led to nothing. Vikings didn't "discover" America either, even though they were there. Columbus did, because it was only after his voyage that the civilized world began to take notice, and then America was truly "discovered." Discovery implies awareness of what you've found and how it fits in a larger context. And it requires amplification of that awareness beyond yourself or your immediate circle.

    AKA, you don't "discover" electricity because a lighting bolt hits you in the ass.
    , @MEH 0910
    @Ebony Obelisk

    https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-nf2x4/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/986/9366/Viking-Rubber-Duck-Schanables-3__74464.1614616853.jpg

  37. @Almost Missouri
    @Anonymous

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-eyed_people

    There used to be a guy going around New England giving tours of old root cellars, which he maintained were built in a Viking style. I have no idea if there is anything to this.

    It ain't much, but that's what I've heard of.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Ghost of Bull Moose

    There used to be a guy going around New England giving tours of old root cellars, which he maintained were built in a Viking style.

    Eben Norton Horsford!

    Obituary. EBEN NORTON HORSFORD.

    Why Is There A Statue of Leif Erikson On Commonwealth Avenue?

  38. “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    There is a theory, with some evidence, that the Vikings went that far inland to get that copper.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    @Nels

    Barry Fell left his tenured Harvard position. The question is: Was he forced and/or bought out?

  39. @Rob

    Interestingly, Pacific Northwest Indians made use of Japanese iron that washed up in shipwrecks
     
    Another piece of evidence for the theory that innovations only difuse to cultures that could have invented them on their own. Finding metallic iron useful does not give stone age peoples, even ones settled into permanent villages where the work of provisioning food for a family takes only a few weeks of effort. Granted, they work near-nonstop during the salmon run. Maybe a bronze age people would figure out “there must be other ores besides copper and tin/arsenic. Let’s go look!” and discover ores for other metals, and then figure out how to reduce the oxide/sulfide metal into metally stuff.

    Nothing about iron suggests iron ore. I mean, you use iron. Do you know where to get a high quality ore? What conditions to heat it in? How to work harden it? I don’t and i am a tool using primate of a tribe that used to produce iron and steel.

    Maybe the modern world is an exception? Well... every so often one sees an article about “African tech entrepreneurs. They are doing things like opening internet cafes or installing wireless hotspots, or building an that already exists, but for Africa. They are never tech entrepreneurs. They don’t have designs for chips that they are going to produce in African fabs. They haven’t come up with an OLED screen tech that Africans are going to make, even from imported materials. They have an app that will run on Chinese smartphones that are on Chinese-built cell phone towers… At African tech levels, there are no features of a silicon chip that suggest how to make one.

    Like if aliens came, and we stormed the ship and got a computer, could we figure it out and make copies? Any kind of Silicon? Except for single atom-thick flat silicone, yes. Maybe. Depends on the feature size. If we really tried, though, like put Intel on it without a diversity mandate and a blank check? We could probably copy it. Graphene? Depends, I’ll give this a maybe. Not sure we know how to keep the doping atoms from diffusing. Making “wires” on a near-perfect conductor. Just knowing if it has to be kept very cold to work would be great. Having a working graphene CPU would go a long way towards telling us how to make our own. We could put it in an electron microscope and learn a ton.

    Quantum? Depends on if it’s quantum “like cool the helium nuclei to 0.25 K”, quantum like “make 5 atom clumps of metallic hydrogen every…”, or quantum like “suspend the nano-neutronium tetrahedra over the quantum gravity nullification flux capacitor (flux capacitors are the future) The first, we could probably figure out. Hell, just having one would tell us if they were worth having. The second, we’d at least now know metallic hydrogen is both stable at room temperature and useful. The third? Maybe it would tell us there is a unification of general relativity and QM with realistic applications. Heck, just knowing QM is true would be worth knowing. Maybe the real truth is quaternion functions, not merely real and imaginary, but a whole two other forms of imaginary! Less jokingly, has anyone tried to do QM with quaternions, like people used to do Maxwell’s equations in quaternionic form?

    I know, Physicist Dave, QM — it’s perfect. But it’s so weird.., why do things propagate like waves, then detected as if they were particles? How do it know it’s being detected? Please don’t explain! I’m not smart enough to understand the answer. If a particle’s state is “detected by 10 neighbors, do the all detect the same state at a time? Do we see a macroscopic “consensus” where all the particles “agree” to be in their particular locations? Are all the atoms in a rock interacting and detecting themselves into rocky one-ness?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @IHTG, @James J O'Meara

    Like if aliens came, and we stormed the ship and got a computer, could we figure it out and make copies?

    It is possible that what you describe could go more like this:

    We study the ship hard, and it takes a long time and great effort to even see how its components are made. When we do work that out, it is like when Watson and Crick figured out the structure of DNA. We know that design now, but it is taking us a very long time to develop all the possible ways we can make use of it, because God was the engineer, and we are not God.

    Someone said that if alien technology were sufficiently advanced, it would seem no different to us than magic or a miracle or Godlike. I happen to believe in God and miracles. The very existence of the Universe with its natural, mathematical laws, and our very consciousness, is a giant miracle with infinite miracles contained within.

    Those Pacific Northwest Indians simply used the washed up iron the way they probably used flint to make arrowheads, as a natural resource “from God,” which, in a way, it was. Think about it. They were as dumb as we would be in the face of such alien technology.

  40. From the Twitter account Steve just replied (or whatever verb Twitterers use) to:

    An account dedicated to L’s posted by British women online. DM me if you’ve got anything good. Ran by @0Ataman0

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BritWomenLs?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    “Ran by” wasn’t run by an editor! That’s the kind of people you’re dealing with here.

    Maned lions are male lions. That’s what upsets them. Also, animals outnumber women in London. There are 300,000 dogs, half a million cats, a million pigeons, and countless well-fed pigeon predators and scavengers:

    First, pigeons are just one part of a wide array of creatures to have adopted our cities as their home. Foxes, rats, gulls, crows and ravens all do a wonderful job of cleaning up any carrion they come across, including deceased pigeons.

    Where are all the dead pigeons?

  41. @Reg Cæsar

    Atlanta Journal-Constitution: Vikings Weren't European
     
    Wait a minute... The AJC/NYT is correct! The Vikings settled Vinland from Greenland and Iceland. They were no more "European" than the Celts or the Anglo-Saxo-Jutes on the British isle. Indeed, less so.
    They were ex-Europeans.

    Geologically, they were already North Americans when they left:


    https://americastectonics.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/7/3/25731536/9903488_orig.png

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal

    Iceland has a famous bridge between North America and Europe, at least the plates.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Paleo Liberal

    When you fly over the North Atlantic, you are glad all these pieces of land exist, and you wish they were more evenly spaced and closer together. A bridge indeed.

    Replies: @JMcG

  42. Extreme variant of Sailer’s Law. Negro gunfight at point-blank range in the Bronx earlier today. Zero injuries reported.

    • Replies: @G. Poulin
    @Polistra

    And yet Baldwin manages to kill a guy without even trying. Sailer's Laws are foundational. He's the new Moses.

    , @additionalMike
    @Polistra

    Ah yes, the Ghetto Weaver stance. The shooter forgot to plant his feet first, which is a lucky thing for the fellow in dark gray.
    Reminds me of the early Elvis Costello footwork, in a way.

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Polistra

    "Extreme variant of Sailer's Law."

    Black shooters wearing COVID face diapers. It's Sailer's World.

  43. @Paleo Liberal
    @Reg Cæsar

    Iceland has a famous bridge between North America and Europe, at least the plates.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    When you fly over the North Atlantic, you are glad all these pieces of land exist, and you wish they were more evenly spaced and closer together. A bridge indeed.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Buzz Mohawk

    You’re not kidding. That’s an awful lot of very cold ocean down there. I don’t think I’ll ever get used to ETOPs.

  44. @Almost Missouri
    The big question to me is why the Viking contact to the New World didn't set off the big wave of epidemics that the later Columbian contact did?

    Were Vikings microbially cleaner than Mediterraneans?

    Or maybe in those colder northern climes, disease can't propagate like it can in the Caribbean?

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn't sufficient?

    Or a combination?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666, @J.Ross, @Lurker, @Frau Katze

    Probably all of those reasons.

    Also, unlike the Spaniards, the Norse seem to have made only war and not love with the local “skraalings.” http://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/02/20/old-world-vs-new-the-first-battles-between-native-north-americans-and-europeans/

    But this seems like one of the great “what ifs” of history. If the Viking colonies had taken permanent root in the Middle Ages, would there have eventually been a great Nordic empire straddling the continent that would have preempted the whole history of English and Spanish America?

    Or, because the Middle Age Vikings were so less numerous and industrially advanced, would they just have served as a conduit for slowly introducing European technology and ideas (and pathogens) to the natives. Who might have then adapted to all these imports to create their own more organized and advanced empire (like Mejii Japan) that could compete with the Europeans.

    Or maybe they would have eventually mixed into some kind of Viking-Indian mestizo race. In which case Canada would now be Nordic Mexico. Weird.

    • Agree: RedpilledAF
    • Replies: @Corn
    @Hypnotoad666

    Who might have then adapted to all these imports to create their own more organized and advanced empire (like Mejii Japan) that could compete with the Europeans.

    In Kim Stanley Robinson’s alternate history novel The Years of Rice and Salt something similar does happen. In that book the Black Death kills 90% of Europe. The East Coast and West Coast are “discovered” separately by Muslims and either Japanese or Chinese respectively.

    Their penetration of North America is slower and eventually technologically advanced American Indian states form in the interior.

  45. You get all the way to the Rock … and stop there!

    Man talk about a missed opportunity.

    • Replies: @Philip Neal
    @AnotherDad

    Wooden ships are held together by iron nails. The resources for constructing them are not present in Iceland, Greenland or Newfoundland. Timber yes, but where did the nails and axes come from? Presumably supply ships from iron-working regions back home, in exchange for fish and fur: but Europe did not have to beg seafaring colonists in America for produce which could be sourced from nearer home at a price reflecting marginal utility.

    L'Anse aux Meadows was presumably at the far end of North American supply chains as well as European ones, with a surplus of goods which Mexico lacked, but the two chains did not link up in the shape of comparative advantage over both continents.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  46. Explain what happened to the all-conquering Vikings? Minnesota is full of the most cuckish White people on earth. Scandinavians (in Scandinavia) don’t come off as militaristic. Or even willing to defend themselves anymore.

    Yet just a 1,000 years ago they were taking over huge parts of Europe. Are they just good at killing and conquering other White people?

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship


    Minnesota is full of the most cuckish White people on earth.
     
    Unlike Arizona. Granted this guy was a Marine.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tydi53IaHr4
    , @Que
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    "the all-conquering Vikings"

    Only in imagination from the 19th-century onwards.

    "Are they just good at killing and conquering other White people?"

    In fact the Norse were late-comers to Germanic expansion, and among the least successful at it. They lost more major battles than they won.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  47. Old and busted — Olympic athlete Chris Jenner kills a woman with his less than Olympic driving, but gets out of, like, legal charges, by claiming to be a woman.
    New hotness — Enemy of the Constitution Alec Baldwin kills one and injures another person on a movie set with a gun.
    The not too distant future: Alice Baldwin?

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @J.Ross

    I'm wondering where the shooting fits in with Steve's new Law of Mass Shootings?

  48. @Almost Missouri
    The big question to me is why the Viking contact to the New World didn't set off the big wave of epidemics that the later Columbian contact did?

    Were Vikings microbially cleaner than Mediterraneans?

    Or maybe in those colder northern climes, disease can't propagate like it can in the Caribbean?

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn't sufficient?

    Or a combination?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666, @J.Ross, @Lurker, @Frau Katze

    All of the previous replies plus clean cold versus filthy sweaty festering humid hot areas.

  49. @Polistra

    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said
     
    Scientist is first to prove a negative!

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ben tillman, @James J O'Meara, @Muggles, @TomSchmidt

    I had the same general idea, but you stated it better than I would have. Well said.

  50. “To be precise, they pinned down that Vikings cut some trees down in Newfoundland with a metal axe exactly 1,000 years ago this year.”

    I think the correct answer that the AJC is looking for is that traces of Vibranium were found in Newfoundland which proves that Wakandans were the first settlers of the New World.

  51. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    Explain what happened to the all-conquering Vikings? Minnesota is full of the most cuckish White people on earth. Scandinavians (in Scandinavia) don't come off as militaristic. Or even willing to defend themselves anymore.

    Yet just a 1,000 years ago they were taking over huge parts of Europe. Are they just good at killing and conquering other White people?

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Que

    Minnesota is full of the most cuckish White people on earth.

    Unlike Arizona. Granted this guy was a Marine.

  52. According to Mark Kurlansky, author of popular history books on subjects including “Cod” and “Salt”, Basque fishermen exploited the Davis Straits fisheries for centuries before the Columbus voyage in 1492. Perhaps there are more details in

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3347.The_Basque_History_of_the_World

    also by Kurlansky. I note that reviewer “Jessica” makes the same point.

    A few years ago I read a short book about a supposed voyage in 1398 involving Henry Sinclair, first Earl of Orkney. I don’t recall whether he sailed or was the financier.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    @Cortes

    Basques were renowned sailors in those days.

    Magellan died during his voyage. The sailor who finished the first circumnavigation of the Earth was a Basque sailor who was the ranking officer still standing.

    , @Twinkie
    @Cortes


    Basque fishermen
     
    Over the years, there have been all kinds of speculations on who - from the Atlantic side - first landed in the Americas, including speculations about the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. The Basques are a good candidate too. But, so far, only the Vikings have good evidence on their side.
  53. @Polistra
    @Corvinus


    South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.
     
    Was about to correct some of the factual errors in this brief passage when I suddenly noticed who wrote it.

    Replies: @duncsbaby, @Rob McX, @Corvinus

    It’s best to just ignore and move on (using alternate means of transport if necessary).

  54. @Almost Missouri
    The big question to me is why the Viking contact to the New World didn't set off the big wave of epidemics that the later Columbian contact did?

    Were Vikings microbially cleaner than Mediterraneans?

    Or maybe in those colder northern climes, disease can't propagate like it can in the Caribbean?

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn't sufficient?

    Or a combination?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666, @J.Ross, @Lurker, @Frau Katze

    Maybe the later, larger, sailing ships incubated all sorts of unhealthiness with their larger crews and unhygenic conditions? While the basic Viking longboat with it’s spartan conditions weeded all the sickly guys on long trips?

    • Replies: @David
    @Lurker

    The key is the larger crews. With a small crew, everyone has either died or recovered from the disease before they reach the destination. If you want to carry fire from one place to another, you have to get a match long enough to keep burning while you travel.

  55. @J.Ross
    Old and busted -- Olympic athlete Chris Jenner kills a woman with his less than Olympic driving, but gets out of, like, legal charges, by claiming to be a woman.
    New hotness -- Enemy of the Constitution Alec Baldwin kills one and injures another person on a movie set with a gun.
    The not too distant future: Alice Baldwin?

    Replies: @Lurker

    I’m wondering where the shooting fits in with Steve’s new Law of Mass Shootings?

  56. Alec Baldwin killed someone.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @JohnnyWalker123

    File Under: Be Careful What You Wish For:

    https://media.patriots.win/post/jDlSf5vT.jpeg

    , @Goddard
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Lock the fucker up.

    , @Jack Armstrong
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Sailer’s law?

  57. Steve, again, comments stuck in mods.

    For days.

  58. But they always seem to miss with these stories the “medieval warming period” that allowed the Vikings more freedom to travel by sea in the north waters that since then are usually filled with icebergs and icefloes.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Medieval_Warm_Period

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @R.G. Camara

    No! The only warming period is now, and it is caused by us. We must reduce our standard of living and build wind farms where poor white people live, so as not to warm up the climate! This has never happened before! Shhh!

  59. @Corvinus
    “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    Per usual, context is required.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42185-y

    Perhaps they simply didn’t see the need to use it because they were fine with what they had, or were not compelled by an environmental need to improve or innovate. South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Calvin Hobbes, @Whiskey, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Nachum

    Indians or native peoples were low IQ cannibals, for the most part. Pretty much most of the Americas were cannibals. The only parts that were not were the Pacific Coast, Rockies, and the Northeast down to the Carolinas. All with low population densities and much game and hunter-gatherer primitives. Everywhere else: the American Southwest, the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys, the Gulf Coast, the Caribbean, and of course Mexico and Central America, the primary food source of the natives … was other natives.

    Even the Aztecs had no real writing, not even clay tablets, no real intensive cultivation of corn, or cacao, or tobacco. It took pretty much 8,000 years in fits and starts for the people in the Valley of Mexico according the archeological evidence to domestic corn to even a minimally useful state. Meanwhile the Middle East went from initial cultivation to truly massive efforts in that area for wheat, barley, fermentation, domestication of chickens, cats, dogs, horses, oxen, pretty much any animal that could be useful.

    American Indians were then low IQ people of limited ability and usefulness to create or maintain a complex civilization always requiring more: more power, more food, more energy. As Mark Twain notably commented, no Indian ever did any lick of work, ever.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Whiskey

    Aztecs certainly had intensive cultivation. Why would you think otherwise? Plant biologists said it would have taken thousands of years to breed teosinte into corn, but plant breeders were all, “a decade, tops” not all biologists are totally comfortable with natural selection.

    The beans, squash, and corn triumvirate is probably the most productive pre-modern farm-acopeia. Corn is a C4 plant. Oxygen is excluded from the photosynthetic tissue, so it has a much-reduced rate of photorespiration, where the high-energy photons are wasted. As photorespiration is worse at higher temperatures, wheat, a C3 plant, loses about half of its potential carbon fixation in the summer.

    It is estimated that only 4/5 of the Mexica Valley population was engaged in farming, in primary production, compared to ~95% of Europe’s population. How much of that is due to the efficiency of growing plants to feed people compared to growing plants to feed animals to feed people, I do not know.

    Likely the Central American Indians would not have been so cannibalistic had they been able to turn people into slaves raising cows and pigs. Sure they had Turkeys and chinchillas, but not many people eat chinchillas today, so it cannot have been very good. Most people eat turkey once a year, cuz it takes about a year to forget, “hey, turkey isn’t very good.”

    Do you know The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind? It is certainly interesting that new World cultures most similar to the Bronze Age Near Eastern Civilizations, the Aztecs, Mayans, and Inca, were batshit insane.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @Corvinus
    @Whiskey

    You’re an idiot. Not even wrong.

  60. @Polistra
    @Corvinus


    South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.
     
    Was about to correct some of the factual errors in this brief passage when I suddenly noticed who wrote it.

    Replies: @duncsbaby, @Rob McX, @Corvinus

    Good thing we Europeans never invented boats or walking, or the wheel would still be just a pipe dream for us.

  61. Non-Europeans? Well, then I guess that that SAS commercial was right after all…

  62. @Reg Cæsar
    @Almost Missouri


    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn’t sufficient?
     
    Norsemen lived in Greenland for centuries without meeting an Eskimo Inuit. It's 900+ miles from Godthåb (Nuuk) to Thule (Qaanaaq), with nothing of note in-between. They were too far apart.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @Paleo Liberal

    Eric the Red was in Greenland long before the Inuit.

    The Inuit came later, and could handle the Little Ice Age better than the Vikings and the local Indians.

  63. @R.G. Camara
    But they always seem to miss with these stories the "medieval warming period" that allowed the Vikings more freedom to travel by sea in the north waters that since then are usually filled with icebergs and icefloes.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Medieval_Warm_Period

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    No! The only warming period is now, and it is caused by us. We must reduce our standard of living and build wind farms where poor white people live, so as not to warm up the climate! This has never happened before! Shhh!

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
    • Troll: Dan Hayes
  64. @Ebony Obelisk
    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…

    Crazy how pressed ppl get when you tell them white folks didn’t actually discover America

    The Viking likely got their asses handed to them by a war party and went back home with cool stories just like jerkoff southerners did.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @peterike, @MEH 0910

    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…

    The “indigenous people” got here by the amazing effort of walking across a land bridge. When they arrived they had no idea whatsoever that they had just crossed from one major continent to another. Columbus was a bit mistaken about where he was, but he arrived here by traversing thousands of miles of open ocean. The two different ways of “discovery” were not remotely comparable. I guarantee that couldn’t accomplish Columbuses feat today, even knowing that America is here, and with maps to show you how to get here.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Wilkey


    I guarantee that [you] couldn’t accomplish Columbuses feat today, even knowing that America is here, and with maps to show you how to get here.
     
    Well, if he is an obelisk, then it would take a big boat to haul his phallic, stone ass over here. If he is an ebony one, then we are supposed to assume he must be big as fuck, requiring an even bigger boat.
    , @Twinkie
    @Wilkey


    The two different ways of “discovery” were not remotely comparable
     
    True, but they are rather widely separated by time, too.

    Also, there is an intriguing evidence that Polynesians might have made it to the Americas by navigating with maritime technology far more primitive than what Columbus had: https://www.livescience.com/1567-chicken-bones-suggest-polynesians-americas-columbus.html
  65. @JohnnyWalker123
    Alec Baldwin killed someone.

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1451381737607634947

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Goddard, @Jack Armstrong

    File Under: Be Careful What You Wish For:

  66. @Wilkey
    @Ebony Obelisk


    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…
     
    The “indigenous people” got here by the amazing effort of walking across a land bridge. When they arrived they had no idea whatsoever that they had just crossed from one major continent to another. Columbus was a bit mistaken about where he was, but he arrived here by traversing thousands of miles of open ocean. The two different ways of “discovery” were not remotely comparable. I guarantee that couldn’t accomplish Columbuses feat today, even knowing that America is here, and with maps to show you how to get here.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Twinkie

    I guarantee that [you] couldn’t accomplish Columbuses feat today, even knowing that America is here, and with maps to show you how to get here.

    Well, if he is an obelisk, then it would take a big boat to haul his phallic, stone ass over here. If he is an ebony one, then we are supposed to assume he must be big as fuck, requiring an even bigger boat.

  67. Anonymous[950] • Disclaimer says:
    @gcochran
    @Anonymous

    No such evidence has been found.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    No such evidence has been found.

    Uh… you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, I’m afraid.

    Suffice to say, the current story of the American Indian, is just that. A story.

    Mainstream media has been generally ignoring evidence for years.

    Here’s a taste…

    https://www.rt.com/news/stone-age-america-archaeologists-445/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

    https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/cactus-hill-archaeological-site/

    https://sciencenordic.com/anthropology-archaeology-denmark/dna-links-native-americans-with-europeans/1393344

    • Thanks: Angharad
  68. @Mr. Anon
    @Polistra


    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said.
     
    That's the sort of statement that anthropologists are always making - statements they can't possibly know to be true or not.

    Replies: @Mr Mox

    That’s the sort of statement that anthropologists are always making – statements they can’t possibly know to be true or not.

    Statements often have to pass through a journalist filter before we see them.

    Journalists are not interested in anthropologists’ “We can’t tell for sure…” statements. They want you to spin a lengthy yarn from a single arrow point, lodged in a two thousand year old pelvis.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    @Mr Mox

    Perhaps they said (or meant) first known crossing of the Atlantic, and the journalist and/or editor dropped “known”.

  69. @Rob

    Interestingly, Pacific Northwest Indians made use of Japanese iron that washed up in shipwrecks
     
    Another piece of evidence for the theory that innovations only difuse to cultures that could have invented them on their own. Finding metallic iron useful does not give stone age peoples, even ones settled into permanent villages where the work of provisioning food for a family takes only a few weeks of effort. Granted, they work near-nonstop during the salmon run. Maybe a bronze age people would figure out “there must be other ores besides copper and tin/arsenic. Let’s go look!” and discover ores for other metals, and then figure out how to reduce the oxide/sulfide metal into metally stuff.

    Nothing about iron suggests iron ore. I mean, you use iron. Do you know where to get a high quality ore? What conditions to heat it in? How to work harden it? I don’t and i am a tool using primate of a tribe that used to produce iron and steel.

    Maybe the modern world is an exception? Well... every so often one sees an article about “African tech entrepreneurs. They are doing things like opening internet cafes or installing wireless hotspots, or building an that already exists, but for Africa. They are never tech entrepreneurs. They don’t have designs for chips that they are going to produce in African fabs. They haven’t come up with an OLED screen tech that Africans are going to make, even from imported materials. They have an app that will run on Chinese smartphones that are on Chinese-built cell phone towers… At African tech levels, there are no features of a silicon chip that suggest how to make one.

    Like if aliens came, and we stormed the ship and got a computer, could we figure it out and make copies? Any kind of Silicon? Except for single atom-thick flat silicone, yes. Maybe. Depends on the feature size. If we really tried, though, like put Intel on it without a diversity mandate and a blank check? We could probably copy it. Graphene? Depends, I’ll give this a maybe. Not sure we know how to keep the doping atoms from diffusing. Making “wires” on a near-perfect conductor. Just knowing if it has to be kept very cold to work would be great. Having a working graphene CPU would go a long way towards telling us how to make our own. We could put it in an electron microscope and learn a ton.

    Quantum? Depends on if it’s quantum “like cool the helium nuclei to 0.25 K”, quantum like “make 5 atom clumps of metallic hydrogen every…”, or quantum like “suspend the nano-neutronium tetrahedra over the quantum gravity nullification flux capacitor (flux capacitors are the future) The first, we could probably figure out. Hell, just having one would tell us if they were worth having. The second, we’d at least now know metallic hydrogen is both stable at room temperature and useful. The third? Maybe it would tell us there is a unification of general relativity and QM with realistic applications. Heck, just knowing QM is true would be worth knowing. Maybe the real truth is quaternion functions, not merely real and imaginary, but a whole two other forms of imaginary! Less jokingly, has anyone tried to do QM with quaternions, like people used to do Maxwell’s equations in quaternionic form?

    I know, Physicist Dave, QM — it’s perfect. But it’s so weird.., why do things propagate like waves, then detected as if they were particles? How do it know it’s being detected? Please don’t explain! I’m not smart enough to understand the answer. If a particle’s state is “detected by 10 neighbors, do the all detect the same state at a time? Do we see a macroscopic “consensus” where all the particles “agree” to be in their particular locations? Are all the atoms in a rock interacting and detecting themselves into rocky one-ness?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @IHTG, @James J O'Meara

    Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?

  70. @Polistra
    Extreme variant of Sailer's Law. Negro gunfight at point-blank range in the Bronx earlier today. Zero injuries reported.

    https://i.ibb.co/NmM71Gr/Screenshot-20211021-231507-Daily-Mail-Online.jpg

    Replies: @G. Poulin, @additionalMike, @SunBakedSuburb

    And yet Baldwin manages to kill a guy without even trying. Sailer’s Laws are foundational. He’s the new Moses.

  71. The Vikings were actually Viqueens: strong, independent wammen of color. Without their mathematical genius, there would be no flying pyramids or stargates.

  72. Pretty cool and interesting; thanks for posting and sharing.

    But it just so happened that another Miyake event occurred during the Viking Age, in A.D. 992 to 993. Trees found worldwide record an uptick in carbon 14 around that time, and wood found at L’Anse aux Meadows should be no exception. In the hopes of pinning down the age of the Americas’ only confirmed Viking settlement, Dee and his colleagues turned to the unlikely marriage of dendrochronology — the study of tree rings — and astrophysics.

    That’s called a “Eureka Moment”. Though we increasingly live in an age of unreason and (as Steve likes to point out) mysticism, its comforting to know there are still some bright minds combining interesting ideas from different disciplines to discover new knowledge.

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Captain Tripps

    "we increasingly live in an age of unreason and ... mysticism"

    We live in the Age of Good Story Material.

    "(as Steve likes to point out)"

    And the best villains work in labs and public health bureaucracies. You know, Steve's friends.

    , @Anonymous
    @Captain Tripps

    Fusa Miyake looks quite nice, but the technical term "Miyake event" sounds tedious and technical.

    Something like "Miyake maximum" or "Fusa forcing" would be better. Perhaps the UNZ commentariat can come up with something handy and memorable. Bueller? Desanex?

    https://physics.aps.org/assets/e28ef4d1-d612-43a8-b538-f305debf4a67/e78_1_medium.png

  73. @JohnnyWalker123
    Alec Baldwin killed someone.

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1451381737607634947

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Goddard, @Jack Armstrong

    Lock the fucker up.

  74. @Joe Paluka
    Only someone educated in the American education system could write a whopper of a headline like that.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hannah Katz, @Prester John, @Barbarossa

    The Atlanta Urinal Constipation is an excellent newspaper… for training puppies and lining bird cages. Much like virtually all major newspapers.

  75. @Loyalty Over IQ Worship
    Explain what happened to the all-conquering Vikings? Minnesota is full of the most cuckish White people on earth. Scandinavians (in Scandinavia) don't come off as militaristic. Or even willing to defend themselves anymore.

    Yet just a 1,000 years ago they were taking over huge parts of Europe. Are they just good at killing and conquering other White people?

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Que

    “the all-conquering Vikings”

    Only in imagination from the 19th-century onwards.

    “Are they just good at killing and conquering other White people?”

    In fact the Norse were late-comers to Germanic expansion, and among the least successful at it. They lost more major battles than they won.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Que


    In fact the Norse were late-comers to Germanic expansion, and among the least successful at it. They lost more major battles than they won.
     
    Yes. The Vikings have been blown all out of proportion in the popular imagination, largely due to cinematic treatments.

    In reality, they were more shrewd raiders and traders than invincible warriors. They mostly specialized in raiding and looting undefended or poorly defended settlements by utilizing their excellent longboats and seamanship and leveraging that mobility and the ability to surprise-attack such settlements. In the vast majority of cases (one major exception being the "the Great Heathen Army" that attacked England), they scrupulously avoided pitched battle with their settle foes and fared rather poorly in open battle (esp. when the latter had cavalry).

    Much of the terror about them came not from any sense of their invincibility, but from the fact that they often seemed to "appear out of nowhere" and because of their utter pagan barbarity and cruelty.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  76. @Polistra
    @Reg Cæsar

    The men who had the urge--and developed the ability--to explore completely unknown places like that, over a thousand years ago, were as different from our own Ruling Class as day is from night.

    PS: was the Mississippi River ever really connected to the Hudson Bay back then? That's a new one on me. Would it even have been a river in that case?

    Replies: @International Jew

    No, that’s the Red River of the North. It’s possible that its headwaters are close to headwaters of the Mississippi, but it would be impossible for the two to be the same river; which way would it flow? But there might be a swamp, or more likely an aquifer, that, technically, connects the Mississippi and the Red River.

    Now just outside the south entrance to Yellowstone National Park there’s a small swampy lake that’s called Two Ocean Lake, and a roadside sign explains that this lake feeds both the Snake River and the Missouri River. Which is sorta cool, and of course I took a picture when I was there, but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.

    I believe there’s another lake like that on California State Highway 4 in the Sierra Nevada.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @International Jew


    but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.
     
    One drop rule!!

    Replies: @International Jew

    , @Flip
    @International Jew

    One of the reasons that Chicago is located where it is is that it links the Mississippi River and Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River watersheds.

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @International Jew


    No, that’s the Red River of the North. It’s possible that its headwaters are close to headwaters of the Mississippi, but it would be impossible for the two to be the same river; which way would it flow?
     
    The headwaters of the Red are a few miles from those of the Minnesota. The former drains into Hudson Bay via Lake Winnipeg and the latter into the Gulf of Mexico.via the Mississippi:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Boisdesiouxrivermap.png


    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Lminnesotarivermap.png

  77. @NorthOfTheOneOhOne
    @Trelane

    I'm guessing it originally read "Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Columbus" and they had to change it lest they upset certain people, but couldn't figure out how.

    Replies: @Walker65, @AndrewR, @Rapparee

    Excellent point!

  78. That’s a giveaway this wood was cleaved by Vikings….

    Or space aliens with metal tools.

  79. @Polistra
    Extreme variant of Sailer's Law. Negro gunfight at point-blank range in the Bronx earlier today. Zero injuries reported.

    https://i.ibb.co/NmM71Gr/Screenshot-20211021-231507-Daily-Mail-Online.jpg

    Replies: @G. Poulin, @additionalMike, @SunBakedSuburb

    Ah yes, the Ghetto Weaver stance. The shooter forgot to plant his feet first, which is a lucky thing for the fellow in dark gray.
    Reminds me of the early Elvis Costello footwork, in a way.

  80. @JohnnyWalker123
    Alec Baldwin killed someone.

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1451381737607634947

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Goddard, @Jack Armstrong

    Sailer’s law?

  81. Apparently, 14.2 per cent of Norway is indigenous land. Saami people are included in the world-wide data base of indigenous peoples, but White Scandinavians don’t qualify as ‘indigenous’ for purposes of the headcount.

    http://www.landmarkmap.org/country-profiles/

    Europe as the home of indigenous Whites? That would imply native rights.

  82. @Nels
    “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    There is a theory, with some evidence, that the Vikings went that far inland to get that copper.
    https://www.amazon.com/Bronze-Age-America-Barry-Fell/dp/0316277711

    Replies: @Dan Hayes

    Barry Fell left his tenured Harvard position. The question is: Was he forced and/or bought out?

  83. @Lurker
    @Almost Missouri

    Maybe the later, larger, sailing ships incubated all sorts of unhealthiness with their larger crews and unhygenic conditions? While the basic Viking longboat with it's spartan conditions weeded all the sickly guys on long trips?

    Replies: @David

    The key is the larger crews. With a small crew, everyone has either died or recovered from the disease before they reach the destination. If you want to carry fire from one place to another, you have to get a match long enough to keep burning while you travel.

    • Agree: Lurker
  84. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Almost Missouri

    The big wave of epidemics never happened.

    It was a conspiracy by American Indian medicine men and their chiefs to control their people. They made them all go around in masks and stay home in their teepees. The number of deaths was exaggerated, and it was mostly the elderly who died, people over 30, who already had lost all their teeth and were starving anyway. No dentistry then.

    As usual, the White Man was blamed.

    Replies: @kihowi, @Frau Katze

    We know it was principally you who shamed Steve into silence after his initial Panicky Pete phase, but now you’re just being cruel.

  85. Well, Wikipedia (right at least 40% of the time!) thinks Greenland is part of North America. So, northeastern indigenous North Americans “discovered” more southern yet eastern indigenous North Americans? Not as cool a headline! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland

  86. @Polistra
    Extreme variant of Sailer's Law. Negro gunfight at point-blank range in the Bronx earlier today. Zero injuries reported.

    https://i.ibb.co/NmM71Gr/Screenshot-20211021-231507-Daily-Mail-Online.jpg

    Replies: @G. Poulin, @additionalMike, @SunBakedSuburb

    “Extreme variant of Sailer’s Law.”

    Black shooters wearing COVID face diapers. It’s Sailer’s World.

  87. @Captain Tripps
    Pretty cool and interesting; thanks for posting and sharing.

    But it just so happened that another Miyake event occurred during the Viking Age, in A.D. 992 to 993. Trees found worldwide record an uptick in carbon 14 around that time, and wood found at L’Anse aux Meadows should be no exception. In the hopes of pinning down the age of the Americas’ only confirmed Viking settlement, Dee and his colleagues turned to the unlikely marriage of dendrochronology — the study of tree rings — and astrophysics.
     
    That's called a "Eureka Moment". Though we increasingly live in an age of unreason and (as Steve likes to point out) mysticism, its comforting to know there are still some bright minds combining interesting ideas from different disciplines to discover new knowledge.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Anonymous

    “we increasingly live in an age of unreason and … mysticism”

    We live in the Age of Good Story Material.

    “(as Steve likes to point out)”

    And the best villains work in labs and public health bureaucracies. You know, Steve’s friends.

  88. @Trelane

    Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Europeans.
     
    Why are Americans so bad at geography?

    Replies: @Polistra, @NorthOfTheOneOhOne, @AndrewR

    Because we don’t need to know a lot of geography, in practical terms

  89. @Almost Missouri
    @Anonymous

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-eyed_people

    There used to be a guy going around New England giving tours of old root cellars, which he maintained were built in a Viking style. I have no idea if there is anything to this.

    It ain't much, but that's what I've heard of.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Ghost of Bull Moose

    “Hey honey, our anniversary is coming up. Want to go on a tour of old root cellars?”

  90. @Cortes
    According to Mark Kurlansky, author of popular history books on subjects including “Cod” and “Salt”, Basque fishermen exploited the Davis Straits fisheries for centuries before the Columbus voyage in 1492. Perhaps there are more details in

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3347.The_Basque_History_of_the_World

    also by Kurlansky. I note that reviewer “Jessica” makes the same point.

    A few years ago I read a short book about a supposed voyage in 1398 involving Henry Sinclair, first Earl of Orkney. I don’t recall whether he sailed or was the financier.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Twinkie

    Basques were renowned sailors in those days.

    Magellan died during his voyage. The sailor who finished the first circumnavigation of the Earth was a Basque sailor who was the ranking officer still standing.

  91. @NorthOfTheOneOhOne
    @Trelane

    I'm guessing it originally read "Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Columbus" and they had to change it lest they upset certain people, but couldn't figure out how.

    Replies: @Walker65, @AndrewR, @Rapparee

    Your hypothesis seems probable. It’s sad our society is more and more catering to 70 IQ histrionic people, but here we are.

  92. @International Jew
    @Polistra

    No, that's the Red River of the North. It's possible that its headwaters are close to headwaters of the Mississippi, but it would be impossible for the two to be the same river; which way would it flow? But there might be a swamp, or more likely an aquifer, that, technically, connects the Mississippi and the Red River.

    Now just outside the south entrance to Yellowstone National Park there's a small swampy lake that's called Two Ocean Lake, and a roadside sign explains that this lake feeds both the Snake River and the Missouri River. Which is sorta cool, and of course I took a picture when I was there, but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.

    I believe there's another lake like that on California State Highway 4 in the Sierra Nevada.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Flip, @Reg Cæsar

    but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.

    One drop rule!!

    • Replies: @International Jew
    @Chrisnonymous

    Touché.

  93. @Cortes
    According to Mark Kurlansky, author of popular history books on subjects including “Cod” and “Salt”, Basque fishermen exploited the Davis Straits fisheries for centuries before the Columbus voyage in 1492. Perhaps there are more details in

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3347.The_Basque_History_of_the_World

    also by Kurlansky. I note that reviewer “Jessica” makes the same point.

    A few years ago I read a short book about a supposed voyage in 1398 involving Henry Sinclair, first Earl of Orkney. I don’t recall whether he sailed or was the financier.

    Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Twinkie

    Basque fishermen

    Over the years, there have been all kinds of speculations on who – from the Atlantic side – first landed in the Americas, including speculations about the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. The Basques are a good candidate too. But, so far, only the Vikings have good evidence on their side.

  94. @Wilkey
    @Ebony Obelisk


    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…
     
    The “indigenous people” got here by the amazing effort of walking across a land bridge. When they arrived they had no idea whatsoever that they had just crossed from one major continent to another. Columbus was a bit mistaken about where he was, but he arrived here by traversing thousands of miles of open ocean. The two different ways of “discovery” were not remotely comparable. I guarantee that couldn’t accomplish Columbuses feat today, even knowing that America is here, and with maps to show you how to get here.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Twinkie

    The two different ways of “discovery” were not remotely comparable

    True, but they are rather widely separated by time, too.

    Also, there is an intriguing evidence that Polynesians might have made it to the Americas by navigating with maritime technology far more primitive than what Columbus had: https://www.livescience.com/1567-chicken-bones-suggest-polynesians-americas-columbus.html

  95. Failure to properly develop metalworking, writing and wheeled transport, and failure to domesticate large beasts of burden, were huge, huge civilizational failures.

  96. @Que
    @Loyalty Over IQ Worship

    "the all-conquering Vikings"

    Only in imagination from the 19th-century onwards.

    "Are they just good at killing and conquering other White people?"

    In fact the Norse were late-comers to Germanic expansion, and among the least successful at it. They lost more major battles than they won.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    In fact the Norse were late-comers to Germanic expansion, and among the least successful at it. They lost more major battles than they won.

    Yes. The Vikings have been blown all out of proportion in the popular imagination, largely due to cinematic treatments.

    In reality, they were more shrewd raiders and traders than invincible warriors. They mostly specialized in raiding and looting undefended or poorly defended settlements by utilizing their excellent longboats and seamanship and leveraging that mobility and the ability to surprise-attack such settlements. In the vast majority of cases (one major exception being the “the Great Heathen Army” that attacked England), they scrupulously avoided pitched battle with their settle foes and fared rather poorly in open battle (esp. when the latter had cavalry).

    Much of the terror about them came not from any sense of their invincibility, but from the fact that they often seemed to “appear out of nowhere” and because of their utter pagan barbarity and cruelty.

    • Agree: Dingo bay rum
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Twinkie

    The only Vikings of some worth were those who became regional French, Normans.

    The rest were just barbarian annoyance, blonde psycho naval thieves. True, when Christians showed them the errors of their ways, they produced great literature in their sagas, which is another proof that whites, however dreadful their homegrown culture may have been, are capable of great achievements, ingenuity & creativity.

    By the way, there was a good page in "The Wizard of Id"... King sits on his throne while the arrival of Eric the Red is announced. Eric appears in the usual Viking warrior attire.

    King: Why do they call you Eric the Red?

    Eric: When in college, I was dating a chick who turned out to be a Commie. A card carrying member of CPUSA. And y'know how these things stick, once that piece of info got out ....

  97. @Corvinus
    “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    Per usual, context is required.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42185-y

    Perhaps they simply didn’t see the need to use it because they were fine with what they had, or were not compelled by an environmental need to improve or innovate. South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Calvin Hobbes, @Whiskey, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Nachum

    Corvinus must prepare his meals in stone pots and pans . . .

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Granitestone, beotch.

    https://www.amazon.com/GRANITESTONE-2660-Granite-Master-Cookware/dp/B07XSM984V

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  98. The Icelandic sagas only highlight the expeditions that got lost or fled. The successful expeditions never went back and told people about their success. The Algonquin and Iroquois legends say that their ancestors came from the east. Experts have noted many similarities between Iroquois and viking customs and traditions.
    I am betting that there were expedition to gather lumber and fish for cod. I think the Vikings left a larger legacy than imagined.

  99. To be precise, they pinned down that Vikings cut some trees down in Newfoundland with a metal axe exactly 1,000 years ago this year. They may well have also been the New World earlier and or later. But, we now know for sure they were there in 1021.

    I say:

    The Vikings were battling the Saxons in the northern part of England in 1066 and that is when the part-Saxon Norman named William the Conqueror won the Battle of Hastings at Senlac Hill that politically decapitated the Saxon Ruling Class of England.

    George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were Anglo-Normans with some Saxon ancestry too. A lot of Southerners with Virginia Colony ancestry have both Saxon and Norman blood.

  100. @International Jew
    @Polistra

    No, that's the Red River of the North. It's possible that its headwaters are close to headwaters of the Mississippi, but it would be impossible for the two to be the same river; which way would it flow? But there might be a swamp, or more likely an aquifer, that, technically, connects the Mississippi and the Red River.

    Now just outside the south entrance to Yellowstone National Park there's a small swampy lake that's called Two Ocean Lake, and a roadside sign explains that this lake feeds both the Snake River and the Missouri River. Which is sorta cool, and of course I took a picture when I was there, but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.

    I believe there's another lake like that on California State Highway 4 in the Sierra Nevada.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Flip, @Reg Cæsar

    One of the reasons that Chicago is located where it is is that it links the Mississippi River and Great Lakes-St. Lawrence River watersheds.

  101. Atlanta Journal-Constitution
    @ajc
    Our journalists can keep you informed with real, fact-based news because of subscribers. 

    Alternative Fact- Scandinavians are not European

    The media is full of alternative facts

  102. Remember they got their ass kicked royally by harold the saxon. Look at the modern vikings the danes they held the germans off in the last war for 11whole hours.imagine 11 hours!! And their brothers in norway with the english were defeated by the germans even though outnumbering the germans in world war 2.

  103. @Ebony Obelisk
    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…

    Crazy how pressed ppl get when you tell them white folks didn’t actually discover America

    The Viking likely got their asses handed to them by a war party and went back home with cool stories just like jerkoff southerners did.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @peterike, @MEH 0910

    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so… Crazy how pressed ppl get when you tell them white folks didn’t actually discover America

    But the indigenous people didn’t know they were in America. They had no knowledge of the wider world. It’s like not seeing the forest for the trees.

    Similarly, Vikings and whoever else may have been dabbling around in North America for centuries. Doesn’t matter, because it led to nothing. Vikings didn’t “discover” America either, even though they were there. Columbus did, because it was only after his voyage that the civilized world began to take notice, and then America was truly “discovered.” Discovery implies awareness of what you’ve found and how it fits in a larger context. And it requires amplification of that awareness beyond yourself or your immediate circle.

    AKA, you don’t “discover” electricity because a lighting bolt hits you in the ass.

  104. @Twinkie
    @Que


    In fact the Norse were late-comers to Germanic expansion, and among the least successful at it. They lost more major battles than they won.
     
    Yes. The Vikings have been blown all out of proportion in the popular imagination, largely due to cinematic treatments.

    In reality, they were more shrewd raiders and traders than invincible warriors. They mostly specialized in raiding and looting undefended or poorly defended settlements by utilizing their excellent longboats and seamanship and leveraging that mobility and the ability to surprise-attack such settlements. In the vast majority of cases (one major exception being the "the Great Heathen Army" that attacked England), they scrupulously avoided pitched battle with their settle foes and fared rather poorly in open battle (esp. when the latter had cavalry).

    Much of the terror about them came not from any sense of their invincibility, but from the fact that they often seemed to "appear out of nowhere" and because of their utter pagan barbarity and cruelty.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    The only Vikings of some worth were those who became regional French, Normans.

    The rest were just barbarian annoyance, blonde psycho naval thieves. True, when Christians showed them the errors of their ways, they produced great literature in their sagas, which is another proof that whites, however dreadful their homegrown culture may have been, are capable of great achievements, ingenuity & creativity.

    By the way, there was a good page in “The Wizard of Id”… King sits on his throne while the arrival of Eric the Red is announced. Eric appears in the usual Viking warrior attire.

    King: Why do they call you Eric the Red?

    Eric: When in college, I was dating a chick who turned out to be a Commie. A card carrying member of CPUSA. And y’know how these things stick, once that piece of info got out ….

  105. @Polistra

    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said
     
    Scientist is first to prove a negative!

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ben tillman, @James J O'Meara, @Muggles, @TomSchmidt

    “You can’t prove a negative” is racist (the word “negative” is a dogwhistle for you know what) and sexist (in patriarchic phallocentrism the feminine is mythologized as a “negative” or “absence”).

    From yesterday:
    “This Idea of Intellectual Debate and Rigor as the Pinnacle of Intellectualism Comes from a World in Which White Men Dominated”

  106. @Polistra
    @Trelane

    Geography is no match for our remit: bashing European people and their descendants wherever and whenever.

    Replies: @James J O'Meara

    Remember the good old days, when the MSM would just dismiss this as “more Russian misinformation”?

  107. @Polistra

    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said
     
    Scientist is first to prove a negative!

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ben tillman, @James J O'Meara, @Muggles, @TomSchmidt

    Scientist is first to prove a negative!

    Mathematicians can prove negative statements. Given the modern and highly abstract intersections between science and math at the extreme ends of measurements, one wonders if negatives about “science” can be proven. Some contemporary “science” appears to largely be math extrapolations.

    There’s a question for the philosophy of science departments. Probably has been done a lot.

    Given the ACJ’s odd headline suggesting that Vikings weren’t European, I am wondering what they would say they were?

    Wakandaians who lost their melanin from being so far north? That could explain their reputation for looting and stealing, but that’s just racist Viking stereotyping…

  108. @Rob

    Interestingly, Pacific Northwest Indians made use of Japanese iron that washed up in shipwrecks
     
    Another piece of evidence for the theory that innovations only difuse to cultures that could have invented them on their own. Finding metallic iron useful does not give stone age peoples, even ones settled into permanent villages where the work of provisioning food for a family takes only a few weeks of effort. Granted, they work near-nonstop during the salmon run. Maybe a bronze age people would figure out “there must be other ores besides copper and tin/arsenic. Let’s go look!” and discover ores for other metals, and then figure out how to reduce the oxide/sulfide metal into metally stuff.

    Nothing about iron suggests iron ore. I mean, you use iron. Do you know where to get a high quality ore? What conditions to heat it in? How to work harden it? I don’t and i am a tool using primate of a tribe that used to produce iron and steel.

    Maybe the modern world is an exception? Well... every so often one sees an article about “African tech entrepreneurs. They are doing things like opening internet cafes or installing wireless hotspots, or building an that already exists, but for Africa. They are never tech entrepreneurs. They don’t have designs for chips that they are going to produce in African fabs. They haven’t come up with an OLED screen tech that Africans are going to make, even from imported materials. They have an app that will run on Chinese smartphones that are on Chinese-built cell phone towers… At African tech levels, there are no features of a silicon chip that suggest how to make one.

    Like if aliens came, and we stormed the ship and got a computer, could we figure it out and make copies? Any kind of Silicon? Except for single atom-thick flat silicone, yes. Maybe. Depends on the feature size. If we really tried, though, like put Intel on it without a diversity mandate and a blank check? We could probably copy it. Graphene? Depends, I’ll give this a maybe. Not sure we know how to keep the doping atoms from diffusing. Making “wires” on a near-perfect conductor. Just knowing if it has to be kept very cold to work would be great. Having a working graphene CPU would go a long way towards telling us how to make our own. We could put it in an electron microscope and learn a ton.

    Quantum? Depends on if it’s quantum “like cool the helium nuclei to 0.25 K”, quantum like “make 5 atom clumps of metallic hydrogen every…”, or quantum like “suspend the nano-neutronium tetrahedra over the quantum gravity nullification flux capacitor (flux capacitors are the future) The first, we could probably figure out. Hell, just having one would tell us if they were worth having. The second, we’d at least now know metallic hydrogen is both stable at room temperature and useful. The third? Maybe it would tell us there is a unification of general relativity and QM with realistic applications. Heck, just knowing QM is true would be worth knowing. Maybe the real truth is quaternion functions, not merely real and imaginary, but a whole two other forms of imaginary! Less jokingly, has anyone tried to do QM with quaternions, like people used to do Maxwell’s equations in quaternionic form?

    I know, Physicist Dave, QM — it’s perfect. But it’s so weird.., why do things propagate like waves, then detected as if they were particles? How do it know it’s being detected? Please don’t explain! I’m not smart enough to understand the answer. If a particle’s state is “detected by 10 neighbors, do the all detect the same state at a time? Do we see a macroscopic “consensus” where all the particles “agree” to be in their particular locations? Are all the atoms in a rock interacting and detecting themselves into rocky one-ness?

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @IHTG, @James J O'Meara

    “why do things propagate like waves, then detected as if they were particles? How do it know it’s being detected? Please don’t explain! I’m not smart enough to understand the answer. If a particle’s state is “detected by 10 neighbors, do the all detect the same state at a time? Do we see a macroscopic “consensus” where all the particles “agree” to be in their particular locations? Are all the atoms in a rock interacting and detecting themselves into rocky one-ness?”

    Read Bernardo Kastrup. People used to read Schopenhauer and would have known the answers to all that after QM appeared. Unfortunately, Hegel’s nonsense triumphed instead, making it impossible to understand modern physics, — or anything — as well as “gifting” us with Marx and Nietzsche/Hitler, resulting in 100s of millions of deaths the the destruction of the West.

  109. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Captain Tripps
    Pretty cool and interesting; thanks for posting and sharing.

    But it just so happened that another Miyake event occurred during the Viking Age, in A.D. 992 to 993. Trees found worldwide record an uptick in carbon 14 around that time, and wood found at L’Anse aux Meadows should be no exception. In the hopes of pinning down the age of the Americas’ only confirmed Viking settlement, Dee and his colleagues turned to the unlikely marriage of dendrochronology — the study of tree rings — and astrophysics.
     
    That's called a "Eureka Moment". Though we increasingly live in an age of unreason and (as Steve likes to point out) mysticism, its comforting to know there are still some bright minds combining interesting ideas from different disciplines to discover new knowledge.

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @Anonymous

    Fusa Miyake looks quite nice, but the technical term “Miyake event” sounds tedious and technical.

    Something like “Miyake maximum” or “Fusa forcing” would be better. Perhaps the UNZ commentariat can come up with something handy and memorable. Bueller? Desanex?

  110. @Whiskey
    @Corvinus

    Indians or native peoples were low IQ cannibals, for the most part. Pretty much most of the Americas were cannibals. The only parts that were not were the Pacific Coast, Rockies, and the Northeast down to the Carolinas. All with low population densities and much game and hunter-gatherer primitives. Everywhere else: the American Southwest, the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys, the Gulf Coast, the Caribbean, and of course Mexico and Central America, the primary food source of the natives ... was other natives.

    Even the Aztecs had no real writing, not even clay tablets, no real intensive cultivation of corn, or cacao, or tobacco. It took pretty much 8,000 years in fits and starts for the people in the Valley of Mexico according the archeological evidence to domestic corn to even a minimally useful state. Meanwhile the Middle East went from initial cultivation to truly massive efforts in that area for wheat, barley, fermentation, domestication of chickens, cats, dogs, horses, oxen, pretty much any animal that could be useful.

    American Indians were then low IQ people of limited ability and usefulness to create or maintain a complex civilization always requiring more: more power, more food, more energy. As Mark Twain notably commented, no Indian ever did any lick of work, ever.

    Replies: @Rob, @Corvinus

    Aztecs certainly had intensive cultivation. Why would you think otherwise? Plant biologists said it would have taken thousands of years to breed teosinte into corn, but plant breeders were all, “a decade, tops” not all biologists are totally comfortable with natural selection.

    The beans, squash, and corn triumvirate is probably the most productive pre-modern farm-acopeia. Corn is a C4 plant. Oxygen is excluded from the photosynthetic tissue, so it has a much-reduced rate of photorespiration, where the high-energy photons are wasted. As photorespiration is worse at higher temperatures, wheat, a C3 plant, loses about half of its potential carbon fixation in the summer.

    It is estimated that only 4/5 of the Mexica Valley population was engaged in farming, in primary production, compared to ~95% of Europe’s population. How much of that is due to the efficiency of growing plants to feed people compared to growing plants to feed animals to feed people, I do not know.

    Likely the Central American Indians would not have been so cannibalistic had they been able to turn people into slaves raising cows and pigs. Sure they had Turkeys and chinchillas, but not many people eat chinchillas today, so it cannot have been very good. Most people eat turkey once a year, cuz it takes about a year to forget, “hey, turkey isn’t very good.”

    Do you know The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind? It is certainly interesting that new World cultures most similar to the Bronze Age Near Eastern Civilizations, the Aztecs, Mayans, and Inca, were batshit insane.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Rob

    There is universal agreement that some Mesoamerican people practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism, but there is no scholarly consensus as to its extent.

    Moreover….

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ancient-mesoamerica/article/abs/aztec-cannibalism-nahua-versus-spanish-and-mestizo-accounts-in-the-valley-of-mexico/CADE6D7C49765FD9C475A59AE549A3D4

    Replies: @Rob

  111. As a kid in Canada in the ’70s, you would see this vignette on the CBC all the time

  112. @Hypnotoad666
    @Almost Missouri

    Probably all of those reasons.

    Also, unlike the Spaniards, the Norse seem to have made only war and not love with the local "skraalings." http://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/02/20/old-world-vs-new-the-first-battles-between-native-north-americans-and-europeans/

    But this seems like one of the great "what ifs" of history. If the Viking colonies had taken permanent root in the Middle Ages, would there have eventually been a great Nordic empire straddling the continent that would have preempted the whole history of English and Spanish America?

    Or, because the Middle Age Vikings were so less numerous and industrially advanced, would they just have served as a conduit for slowly introducing European technology and ideas (and pathogens) to the natives. Who might have then adapted to all these imports to create their own more organized and advanced empire (like Mejii Japan) that could compete with the Europeans.

    Or maybe they would have eventually mixed into some kind of Viking-Indian mestizo race. In which case Canada would now be Nordic Mexico. Weird.

    Replies: @Corn

    Who might have then adapted to all these imports to create their own more organized and advanced empire (like Mejii Japan) that could compete with the Europeans.

    In Kim Stanley Robinson’s alternate history novel The Years of Rice and Salt something similar does happen. In that book the Black Death kills 90% of Europe. The East Coast and West Coast are “discovered” separately by Muslims and either Japanese or Chinese respectively.

    Their penetration of North America is slower and eventually technologically advanced American Indian states form in the interior.

  113. @Mr Mox
    @Mr. Anon


    That’s the sort of statement that anthropologists are always making – statements they can’t possibly know to be true or not.

     

    Statements often have to pass through a journalist filter before we see them.

    Journalists are not interested in anthropologists' "We can't tell for sure..." statements. They want you to spin a lengthy yarn from a single arrow point, lodged in a two thousand year old pelvis.

    Replies: @Not Raul

    Perhaps they said (or meant) first known crossing of the Atlantic, and the journalist and/or editor dropped “known”.

  114. @Rob
    @Whiskey

    Aztecs certainly had intensive cultivation. Why would you think otherwise? Plant biologists said it would have taken thousands of years to breed teosinte into corn, but plant breeders were all, “a decade, tops” not all biologists are totally comfortable with natural selection.

    The beans, squash, and corn triumvirate is probably the most productive pre-modern farm-acopeia. Corn is a C4 plant. Oxygen is excluded from the photosynthetic tissue, so it has a much-reduced rate of photorespiration, where the high-energy photons are wasted. As photorespiration is worse at higher temperatures, wheat, a C3 plant, loses about half of its potential carbon fixation in the summer.

    It is estimated that only 4/5 of the Mexica Valley population was engaged in farming, in primary production, compared to ~95% of Europe’s population. How much of that is due to the efficiency of growing plants to feed people compared to growing plants to feed animals to feed people, I do not know.

    Likely the Central American Indians would not have been so cannibalistic had they been able to turn people into slaves raising cows and pigs. Sure they had Turkeys and chinchillas, but not many people eat chinchillas today, so it cannot have been very good. Most people eat turkey once a year, cuz it takes about a year to forget, “hey, turkey isn’t very good.”

    Do you know The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind? It is certainly interesting that new World cultures most similar to the Bronze Age Near Eastern Civilizations, the Aztecs, Mayans, and Inca, were batshit insane.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    There is universal agreement that some Mesoamerican people practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism, but there is no scholarly consensus as to its extent.

    Moreover….

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ancient-mesoamerica/article/abs/aztec-cannibalism-nahua-versus-spanish-and-mestizo-accounts-in-the-valley-of-mexico/CADE6D7C49765FD9C475A59AE549A3D4

    • Replies: @Rob
    @Corvinus

    Ok, “scholars” may not agree, but with the state of academia, if there had only been limited or sporadic human sacrifice and cannibalism, they would say the evidence is ambiguous, accounts conflict, conquered city-states were disparaging the conquerors, etc. Cannibalism and human sacrifice were widespread. If proof were not overwhelming, the very existence of socially sanctioned cannibalism would be controversial. By and large, academics are very middle-upper-middle-class in outlook. They would not take slaves and eat them, so they have trouble imagining that others would. Couple that with negative views of non-white people being considered racist, and Mexican academics wanting to defend their people’s reputation, and it’s not surprising there is no “consensus” of widespread, frequent cannibalism.

    In what is now Arizona, desert Southwest, at least, pretty sure around where people spoke Uto-Aztecan languages, and the Aztec legends said that they were immigrants from the north, a fair number of fossilized human poos had skeletal muscle protein — proof of cannibalism. They’ve found human long bones with polished ends — that’s no proof they were cooked for food, but it is mighty suspicious.

    There is also the matter of the sheer speed of the Conquistadors’ success. Had the satrapies not been mighty harshly treated, they would not have said “a hundred funny looking people? They will free us!” so quickly.

    Quetzalcoatl? Maybe. I have read, though I do not have a citation handy, that “Pre-Colombian” legends of a white god who would come from the East were post-Colombian and spread by the Spanish.

    This is not particularly blood-libelous. The early near Eastern empires were pretty monstrous by Western standards, and the New World civilizations were on par in social technology. They have found corpses of babies sacrificed in Carthage’s temple of Baal, after all.

    I have wondered why human sacrifice was so prevalent in Mexico, not sure about the Inca, and I think it is largely because infectious disease was so much less prevalent. First, the cost of cannibalism was lower. Lots of infectious diseases would have spread in the Old World but were not a risk in Mexico. Second, without endemic disease thinning the population, the reproductive output of the population was much higher. What to do with all the extra mouths? “Mouth? That gives me an idea…” The last relates to the fact that people grow taller, and with exercise, stronger on a high meat diet. With stone weapons, strength would have been even more important for a Central American warrior than an old-world one. He could not rely on his armor, mere quilted cloth, nor could he ride a horse to get above his enemies and rain down blows. He needed to be strong. For that, meat helped.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  115. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Corvinus

    Corvinus must prepare his meals in stone pots and pans . . .

    Replies: @Corvinus

    Granitestone, beotch.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Corvinus

    You're advertising the fact that you have the palate of a billy goat?

  116. @Whiskey
    @Corvinus

    Indians or native peoples were low IQ cannibals, for the most part. Pretty much most of the Americas were cannibals. The only parts that were not were the Pacific Coast, Rockies, and the Northeast down to the Carolinas. All with low population densities and much game and hunter-gatherer primitives. Everywhere else: the American Southwest, the Mississippi and Ohio River valleys, the Gulf Coast, the Caribbean, and of course Mexico and Central America, the primary food source of the natives ... was other natives.

    Even the Aztecs had no real writing, not even clay tablets, no real intensive cultivation of corn, or cacao, or tobacco. It took pretty much 8,000 years in fits and starts for the people in the Valley of Mexico according the archeological evidence to domestic corn to even a minimally useful state. Meanwhile the Middle East went from initial cultivation to truly massive efforts in that area for wheat, barley, fermentation, domestication of chickens, cats, dogs, horses, oxen, pretty much any animal that could be useful.

    American Indians were then low IQ people of limited ability and usefulness to create or maintain a complex civilization always requiring more: more power, more food, more energy. As Mark Twain notably commented, no Indian ever did any lick of work, ever.

    Replies: @Rob, @Corvinus

    You’re an idiot. Not even wrong.

  117. @Franz

    Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Europeans
     
    Don't laugh. Antifa retards will use this as absolute PROOF whitey has no right to Norway or Canada.

    And shouldn't it be "Norse landed..."? Norse is the ethnic group, viking is a job description. As: "The Irish Coast needs a bit of attention, Olaf, so let's all go a-viking!"

    Or have they changed that too?

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    “Antifa retards”, you are being redundant

  118. As someone born and raised there, I’d say the Vikings left due to a shitty economy and even shittier weather.

  119. @Anonymous
    Off-topic, but important. New COVID variant found in Russia is even more contagious and deadly than the Delta Variant. Anthony Fauci is about the announce a new prolonged quarantine.
    https://youtu.be/oDI32iGuQ9I

    Replies: @teo toon

    Bioweapon attack…by USA,Inc.?

  120. @Polistra
    @Corvinus


    South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.
     
    Was about to correct some of the factual errors in this brief passage when I suddenly noticed who wrote it.

    Replies: @duncsbaby, @Rob McX, @Corvinus

    “Was about to correct some of the factual errors in this brief passage when I suddenly noticed who wrote it.“

    Put up or shut up.

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1322&context=byusq

  121. @International Jew
    @Polistra

    No, that's the Red River of the North. It's possible that its headwaters are close to headwaters of the Mississippi, but it would be impossible for the two to be the same river; which way would it flow? But there might be a swamp, or more likely an aquifer, that, technically, connects the Mississippi and the Red River.

    Now just outside the south entrance to Yellowstone National Park there's a small swampy lake that's called Two Ocean Lake, and a roadside sign explains that this lake feeds both the Snake River and the Missouri River. Which is sorta cool, and of course I took a picture when I was there, but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.

    I believe there's another lake like that on California State Highway 4 in the Sierra Nevada.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Flip, @Reg Cæsar

    No, that’s the Red River of the North. It’s possible that its headwaters are close to headwaters of the Mississippi, but it would be impossible for the two to be the same river; which way would it flow?

    The headwaters of the Red are a few miles from those of the Minnesota. The former drains into Hudson Bay via Lake Winnipeg and the latter into the Gulf of Mexico.via the Mississippi:

    [MORE]


  122. @Joe Paluka
    Only someone educated in the American education system could write a whopper of a headline like that.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hannah Katz, @Prester John, @Barbarossa

    The Vikings were from Minnesota, no?

  123. @NorthOfTheOneOhOne
    @Trelane

    I'm guessing it originally read "Vikings landed in America 1,000 years ago, long before Columbus" and they had to change it lest they upset certain people, but couldn't figure out how.

    Replies: @Walker65, @AndrewR, @Rapparee

    The offense would likely remain, if it were widely known that, like Columbus after him, Leif Erikson was a Catholic missionary: https://ucatholic.com/blog/leif-erikson-the-first-person-to-reach-north-america-was-a-catholic-viking/

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Rapparee

    Check out the title on the linked article, "...the first person to reach North America..." that is even more erroneous than the ACJ heading.

  124. @AnotherDad
    You get all the way to the Rock ... and stop there!

    Man talk about a missed opportunity.

    Replies: @Philip Neal

    Wooden ships are held together by iron nails. The resources for constructing them are not present in Iceland, Greenland or Newfoundland. Timber yes, but where did the nails and axes come from? Presumably supply ships from iron-working regions back home, in exchange for fish and fur: but Europe did not have to beg seafaring colonists in America for produce which could be sourced from nearer home at a price reflecting marginal utility.

    L’Anse aux Meadows was presumably at the far end of North American supply chains as well as European ones, with a surplus of goods which Mexico lacked, but the two chains did not link up in the shape of comparative advantage over both continents.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Philip Neal

    How much was the first century of European settlement in the New World after 1492 driven by gold and silver rather than by farmland? Also, settlement was driven in part by crops that the Old World didn't yet have, like tobacco.

    Presumably, the Skraelings didn't have any gold or silver (maybe a little copper), and no interesting crops, so the Vikings went home.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted

  125. @Philip Neal
    @AnotherDad

    Wooden ships are held together by iron nails. The resources for constructing them are not present in Iceland, Greenland or Newfoundland. Timber yes, but where did the nails and axes come from? Presumably supply ships from iron-working regions back home, in exchange for fish and fur: but Europe did not have to beg seafaring colonists in America for produce which could be sourced from nearer home at a price reflecting marginal utility.

    L'Anse aux Meadows was presumably at the far end of North American supply chains as well as European ones, with a surplus of goods which Mexico lacked, but the two chains did not link up in the shape of comparative advantage over both continents.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    How much was the first century of European settlement in the New World after 1492 driven by gold and silver rather than by farmland? Also, settlement was driven in part by crops that the Old World didn’t yet have, like tobacco.

    Presumably, the Skraelings didn’t have any gold or silver (maybe a little copper), and no interesting crops, so the Vikings went home.

    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted
    @Steve Sailer

    Also, as any Englishman recollects, the vikings were exclusively and viciously homosexual when going about their voyages. No room for foids on the boat.
    So unless the redmen carelessly left squaws alone in the woods, bent over gathering berries, the beardymen were prevented from reproducing, even accidentally. So they would never reappear in the genetic record.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  126. @Corvinus
    @Rob

    There is universal agreement that some Mesoamerican people practiced human sacrifice and cannibalism, but there is no scholarly consensus as to its extent.

    Moreover….

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ancient-mesoamerica/article/abs/aztec-cannibalism-nahua-versus-spanish-and-mestizo-accounts-in-the-valley-of-mexico/CADE6D7C49765FD9C475A59AE549A3D4

    Replies: @Rob

    Ok, “scholars” may not agree, but with the state of academia, if there had only been limited or sporadic human sacrifice and cannibalism, they would say the evidence is ambiguous, accounts conflict, conquered city-states were disparaging the conquerors, etc. Cannibalism and human sacrifice were widespread. If proof were not overwhelming, the very existence of socially sanctioned cannibalism would be controversial. By and large, academics are very middle-upper-middle-class in outlook. They would not take slaves and eat them, so they have trouble imagining that others would. Couple that with negative views of non-white people being considered racist, and Mexican academics wanting to defend their people’s reputation, and it’s not surprising there is no “consensus” of widespread, frequent cannibalism.

    In what is now Arizona, desert Southwest, at least, pretty sure around where people spoke Uto-Aztecan languages, and the Aztec legends said that they were immigrants from the north, a fair number of fossilized human poos had skeletal muscle protein — proof of cannibalism. They’ve found human long bones with polished ends — that’s no proof they were cooked for food, but it is mighty suspicious.

    There is also the matter of the sheer speed of the Conquistadors’ success. Had the satrapies not been mighty harshly treated, they would not have said “a hundred funny looking people? They will free us!” so quickly.

    Quetzalcoatl? Maybe. I have read, though I do not have a citation handy, that “Pre-Colombian” legends of a white god who would come from the East were post-Colombian and spread by the Spanish.

    This is not particularly blood-libelous. The early near Eastern empires were pretty monstrous by Western standards, and the New World civilizations were on par in social technology. They have found corpses of babies sacrificed in Carthage’s temple of Baal, after all.

    I have wondered why human sacrifice was so prevalent in Mexico, not sure about the Inca, and I think it is largely because infectious disease was so much less prevalent. First, the cost of cannibalism was lower. Lots of infectious diseases would have spread in the Old World but were not a risk in Mexico. Second, without endemic disease thinning the population, the reproductive output of the population was much higher. What to do with all the extra mouths? “Mouth? That gives me an idea…” The last relates to the fact that people grow taller, and with exercise, stronger on a high meat diet. With stone weapons, strength would have been even more important for a Central American warrior than an old-world one. He could not rely on his armor, mere quilted cloth, nor could he ride a horse to get above his enemies and rain down blows. He needed to be strong. For that, meat helped.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Rob

    It's difficult to kill people with stone weapons. At the end of a typical mesoamerican battle you had lots of injured men but few fatalities. The captives would then be killed after the battle in a ritualized manner.

    By contrast European battles produced lots of corpses. Steel and gunpowder made the difference.

  127. @Joe Paluka
    Only someone educated in the American education system could write a whopper of a headline like that.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Hannah Katz, @Prester John, @Barbarossa

    I’m so disappointed…I thought we were going to find out that the Vikings were actually black.

    #BVM – Black Vikings Matter

  128. “Ok, “scholars” may not agree…”

    No need to use quotations. Indeed, scholars have vehemently disagreed. The source I linked to clearly shows that, as you correctly stated, “the evidence is ambiguous and accounts conflict”.

    “By and large, academics are very middle-upper-middle-class in outlook…”

    Red herring. In order to understand the discursive development of the cannibal, one must first interpret European understandings of civilization and savagery that reflected the time period. It could be reasonably argued that the early writers of the New World created a cannibal trope to justify domination. Methods of historical enquiry has its advantages and disadvantages. Remember, there was a dearth of indigenous sources, as tribal groups kept their history orally. We must take into account that the European descriptions of what they witnessed lacked nuance and contextualization. It is therefore easier for a person like Whiskey to simply make sweeping generalizations without bearing in mind historical and anthropological studies on the topic.

    https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/55851/1/U584386.pdf

    As Latin Americans, our function has historically been to adopt the vanquisher’s image of who we are and to assume it is a fundamental truth about ourselves. In the best of cases, Latin Americans can never be anything but apprentices, “rough drafts or dull copies of Europeans” (Fernandez Retamar 1989:5). In the worst, we have happily imbibed the image of ourselves as backward, uncivilised, barbaric, savage. Yet these images are just that: they are mirages not mirrors. They are constructions that have sustained clear ideological functions throughout the five hundred years of our servility. The only way to destroy them is by staring at them so intently that their cracks will begin to show. If we understand how these images of ourselves were built, then we can begin to take them apart piece by piece. This dissertation seeks to take apart some of the images imposed upon ourselves throughout the five hundred years of European presence in the continent. As it will be demonstrated further below, from the very first moment of contact the Amerindian was characterised as a naked, savage, monstrous cannibal. As such, the figure of the cannibal has played a central role for the construction of the Latin American subject. In other words, the Amerindian was always other. He was other to the European, other to ‘civilisation’, other to the very core. In sum, this thesis looks at the ways in which the Latin American native was constructed as irreducibly other through the figure of the cannibal. If the American Indian was produced as so radically different to his European counterpart, then his ultimate ‘taming’ and decimation was justified in the interests of European colonisation.

    • Replies: @Bert
    @Corvinus


    In the worst, we have happily imbibed the image of ourselves as backward, uncivilised, barbaric, savage.
     
    Got it. HBD is fabricated White-supremist propaganda. Worldwide everyone is just a Quaker. LMAO at your Wokeism.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/worse-than-any-horror-film-inside-a-los-zetas-cartel-kitchen-1.4225436

    "Bloody handprints on walls, stained clothes, plastic cable ties, machetes and, as one person observes, the crunch of bones beneath a thick blanket of ash. Amid sobbing, families of some of Mexico’s estimated 60,000 disappeared absorb the scene at La Gallera ranch in northern Veracruz.

    A few metres from an abandoned single-storey house, an outdoor brick oven was once used to make the traditional corn dish zacahuil. After the Los Zetas cartel took over the ranch in 2011, however, it was used to incinerate its victims. In this part of Mexico, someone explains, brutality has stained language: “to zacahuil” can now mean to cook humans."

    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/06/21/mexicos_got_a_bullying_problem_blame_the_cartels.html

    https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Graphic-video-appears-to-show-Mexican-drug-cartel-6330205.php

    Replies: @Corvinus

  129. @Dutch Boy
    @Almost Missouri

    Skraelings (Norse word for Indians)

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted

    Them old saily bois knew exactly what it was they were looking at.
    Skraelingr= [more or less is equal to] “Lapps”[Saami].
    IE the people of the rags and tatters. Ignorant of the loom, wearers of animal pelts. Almost as bad as tinks.

    I don’t know how the Americans (in their tribes) might have got on with the Norwegians, still less the Gael.
    But at least the less differential technological edge back then might have blunted the INEVITABLE apocalypse of disease, horses and metal.
    Us, the chinese/japs, or even the Russian Empire. Take your pick of overlords.

    Keep up at the back there, boyos.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Expletive Deleted

    Indians did pretty well with horses once they got their hands on them, especially in the grasslands.

  130. @Steve Sailer
    @Philip Neal

    How much was the first century of European settlement in the New World after 1492 driven by gold and silver rather than by farmland? Also, settlement was driven in part by crops that the Old World didn't yet have, like tobacco.

    Presumably, the Skraelings didn't have any gold or silver (maybe a little copper), and no interesting crops, so the Vikings went home.

    Replies: @Expletive Deleted

    Also, as any Englishman recollects, the vikings were exclusively and viciously homosexual when going about their voyages. No room for foids on the boat.
    So unless the redmen carelessly left squaws alone in the woods, bent over gathering berries, the beardymen were prevented from reproducing, even accidentally. So they would never reappear in the genetic record.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Expletive Deleted

    “Also, as any Englishman recollects, the vikings were exclusively and viciously homosexual when going about their voyages.“

    Citations required.

  131. Anon[314] • Disclaimer says:

    You know the weird thing about this anti-Columbus posturing is that while Columbus encountered the Americas first, he didn’t “discover” America, since “discovery” is an intellectual process of identifying something new and integrating that new thing into previously known information. Columbus went to his death still thinking he (incorrectly) “discovered” a way to get to the Far East. Obviously, the Vikings did not discover America either.

    Even weirder is that the person who did “discover” America, that is identify the New World as a new continent distinct from the Far East and integrating that into the other known facts about the size of the Earth and other geography was Amerigo Vespucci, who had the last laugh on Columbus since the new continents were named after him. So history got one right for once.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anon

    The Spanish simply called the continent New Spain. Obviously, foreigners weren't going to go along with that. Also Columbus' bad reputation isn't a product of modern liberal sensibilities but goes way back. He was considered a tyrant in his own lifetime and ended his life under a cloud. Naming a continent after him was out of the question. Vespucci benefitted from this.

  132. @Corvinus
    "Ok, “scholars” may not agree..."

    No need to use quotations. Indeed, scholars have vehemently disagreed. The source I linked to clearly shows that, as you correctly stated, "the evidence is ambiguous and accounts conflict".

    "By and large, academics are very middle-upper-middle-class in outlook..."

    Red herring. In order to understand the discursive development of the cannibal, one must first interpret European understandings of civilization and savagery that reflected the time period. It could be reasonably argued that the early writers of the New World created a cannibal trope to justify domination. Methods of historical enquiry has its advantages and disadvantages. Remember, there was a dearth of indigenous sources, as tribal groups kept their history orally. We must take into account that the European descriptions of what they witnessed lacked nuance and contextualization. It is therefore easier for a person like Whiskey to simply make sweeping generalizations without bearing in mind historical and anthropological studies on the topic.

    https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/55851/1/U584386.pdf


    As Latin Americans, our function has historically been to adopt the vanquisher’s image of who we are and to assume it is a fundamental truth about ourselves. In the best of cases, Latin Americans can never be anything but apprentices, “rough drafts or dull copies of Europeans” (Fernandez Retamar 1989:5). In the worst, we have happily imbibed the image of ourselves as backward, uncivilised, barbaric, savage. Yet these images are just that: they are mirages not mirrors. They are constructions that have sustained clear ideological functions throughout the five hundred years of our servility. The only way to destroy them is by staring at them so intently that their cracks will begin to show. If we understand how these images of ourselves were built, then we can begin to take them apart piece by piece. This dissertation seeks to take apart some of the images imposed upon ourselves throughout the five hundred years of European presence in the continent. As it will be demonstrated further below, from the very first moment of contact the Amerindian was characterised as a naked, savage, monstrous cannibal. As such, the figure of the cannibal has played a central role for the construction of the Latin American subject. In other words, the Amerindian was always other. He was other to the European, other to ‘civilisation’, other to the very core. In sum, this thesis looks at the ways in which the Latin American native was constructed as irreducibly other through the figure of the cannibal. If the American Indian was produced as so radically different to his European counterpart, then his ultimate ‘taming’ and decimation was justified in the interests of European colonisation.
     

    Replies: @Bert

    In the worst, we have happily imbibed the image of ourselves as backward, uncivilised, barbaric, savage.

    Got it. HBD is fabricated White-supremist propaganda. Worldwide everyone is just a Quaker. LMAO at your Wokeism.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/worse-than-any-horror-film-inside-a-los-zetas-cartel-kitchen-1.4225436

    “Bloody handprints on walls, stained clothes, plastic cable ties, machetes and, as one person observes, the crunch of bones beneath a thick blanket of ash. Amid sobbing, families of some of Mexico’s estimated 60,000 disappeared absorb the scene at La Gallera ranch in northern Veracruz.

    A few metres from an abandoned single-storey house, an outdoor brick oven was once used to make the traditional corn dish zacahuil. After the Los Zetas cartel took over the ranch in 2011, however, it was used to incinerate its victims. In this part of Mexico, someone explains, brutality has stained language: “to zacahuil” can now mean to cook humans.”

    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/06/21/mexicos_got_a_bullying_problem_blame_the_cartels.html

    https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Graphic-video-appears-to-show-Mexican-drug-cartel-6330205.php

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Bert

    "Got it. HBD is fabricated White-supremist propaganda. Worldwide everyone is just a Quaker. LMAO at your Wokeism."

    Wow, a false premise, a wild generalization, and a false conclusion, all wrapped into one. The Sailer trifecta!

    And I imagine you relish your red herring with Grey Poupon as well. The fact of the matter is that drug cartels/mafia gangs, regardless if from Latin America, Asia, or Europe, are notorious for their brutality.

    But it's not as if Europeans (or other groups of people throughout human history) also engaged in cannibalism, right?

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/


    When early Homo sapiens began engaging in cannibalism is a topic of debate, although it is clear they eventually did, says Sandra Bowdler, an emeritus professor of archeology at the University of Western Australia. Evidence is scant that this happened in early human hunter-gatherer communities, she says, although in 2009 Fernando Rozzi, at the Centre National de la Récherche Scientifique, in Paris, reported finding a Neanderthal jaw bone that may have been butchered by early humans.

    Even if Europe’s Homo sapiens didn’t consume each other in prehistory, they certainly did in more modern times. References to acts of cannibalism are sprinkled throughout many religious and historical documents, such as the reports that cooked human flesh was being sold in 11th-century English markets during times of famine, says Jay Rubenstein, a historian at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville.

    However, the world’s first cannibal incident reported by multiple, independent, first-hand accounts took place during the Crusades by European soldiers, Rubenstein says.

    These first-hand stories agree that in 1098, after a successful siege and capture of the Syrian city Ma’arra, Christian soldiers ate the flesh of local Muslims. Thereafter the facts get murky, Rubenstein says. Some chroniclers report that the bodies were secretly consumed in “wicked banquets” borne out of famine and without the authorization of military leaders, Rubenstein says. Other reports suggest the cannibalism was done with tacit approval of military superiors who wished to use stories of the barbaric act as a psychological fear tactic in future Crusade battles.
     

  133. @Expletive Deleted
    @Dutch Boy

    Them old saily bois knew exactly what it was they were looking at.
    Skraelingr= [more or less is equal to] "Lapps"[Saami].
    IE the people of the rags and tatters. Ignorant of the loom, wearers of animal pelts. Almost as bad as tinks.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqv6pPmHObY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfSgb0irTbY

    I don't know how the Americans (in their tribes) might have got on with the Norwegians, still less the Gael.
    But at least the less differential technological edge back then might have blunted the INEVITABLE apocalypse of disease, horses and metal.
    Us, the chinese/japs, or even the Russian Empire. Take your pick of overlords.

    Keep up at the back there, boyos.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Indians did pretty well with horses once they got their hands on them, especially in the grasslands.

  134. @Chrisnonymous
    @International Jew


    but that one lake supplies a tiny tiny fraction of the waters that eventually flow past Portland or Kansas City.
     
    One drop rule!!

    Replies: @International Jew

    Touché.

  135. Anonymous[222] • Disclaimer says:

    The Vikings were holy warriors by their own lights. They were avenging Charlemagne’s attacks on pagans in what is now east Germany and southern Denmark. Charlemagne’s men went out of their way to desecrate the shrines of the pagans and kill their holy men. The Vikings were repaying the Christians in kind.

  136. @Rapparee
    @NorthOfTheOneOhOne

    The offense would likely remain, if it were widely known that, like Columbus after him, Leif Erikson was a Catholic missionary: https://ucatholic.com/blog/leif-erikson-the-first-person-to-reach-north-america-was-a-catholic-viking/

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    Check out the title on the linked article, “…the first person to reach North America…” that is even more erroneous than the ACJ heading.

  137. Anonymous[222] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob
    @Corvinus

    Ok, “scholars” may not agree, but with the state of academia, if there had only been limited or sporadic human sacrifice and cannibalism, they would say the evidence is ambiguous, accounts conflict, conquered city-states were disparaging the conquerors, etc. Cannibalism and human sacrifice were widespread. If proof were not overwhelming, the very existence of socially sanctioned cannibalism would be controversial. By and large, academics are very middle-upper-middle-class in outlook. They would not take slaves and eat them, so they have trouble imagining that others would. Couple that with negative views of non-white people being considered racist, and Mexican academics wanting to defend their people’s reputation, and it’s not surprising there is no “consensus” of widespread, frequent cannibalism.

    In what is now Arizona, desert Southwest, at least, pretty sure around where people spoke Uto-Aztecan languages, and the Aztec legends said that they were immigrants from the north, a fair number of fossilized human poos had skeletal muscle protein — proof of cannibalism. They’ve found human long bones with polished ends — that’s no proof they were cooked for food, but it is mighty suspicious.

    There is also the matter of the sheer speed of the Conquistadors’ success. Had the satrapies not been mighty harshly treated, they would not have said “a hundred funny looking people? They will free us!” so quickly.

    Quetzalcoatl? Maybe. I have read, though I do not have a citation handy, that “Pre-Colombian” legends of a white god who would come from the East were post-Colombian and spread by the Spanish.

    This is not particularly blood-libelous. The early near Eastern empires were pretty monstrous by Western standards, and the New World civilizations were on par in social technology. They have found corpses of babies sacrificed in Carthage’s temple of Baal, after all.

    I have wondered why human sacrifice was so prevalent in Mexico, not sure about the Inca, and I think it is largely because infectious disease was so much less prevalent. First, the cost of cannibalism was lower. Lots of infectious diseases would have spread in the Old World but were not a risk in Mexico. Second, without endemic disease thinning the population, the reproductive output of the population was much higher. What to do with all the extra mouths? “Mouth? That gives me an idea…” The last relates to the fact that people grow taller, and with exercise, stronger on a high meat diet. With stone weapons, strength would have been even more important for a Central American warrior than an old-world one. He could not rely on his armor, mere quilted cloth, nor could he ride a horse to get above his enemies and rain down blows. He needed to be strong. For that, meat helped.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    It’s difficult to kill people with stone weapons. At the end of a typical mesoamerican battle you had lots of injured men but few fatalities. The captives would then be killed after the battle in a ritualized manner.

    By contrast European battles produced lots of corpses. Steel and gunpowder made the difference.

  138. Anonymous[534] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    You know the weird thing about this anti-Columbus posturing is that while Columbus encountered the Americas first, he didn't "discover" America, since "discovery" is an intellectual process of identifying something new and integrating that new thing into previously known information. Columbus went to his death still thinking he (incorrectly) "discovered" a way to get to the Far East. Obviously, the Vikings did not discover America either.

    Even weirder is that the person who did "discover" America, that is identify the New World as a new continent distinct from the Far East and integrating that into the other known facts about the size of the Earth and other geography was Amerigo Vespucci, who had the last laugh on Columbus since the new continents were named after him. So history got one right for once.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    The Spanish simply called the continent New Spain. Obviously, foreigners weren’t going to go along with that. Also Columbus’ bad reputation isn’t a product of modern liberal sensibilities but goes way back. He was considered a tyrant in his own lifetime and ended his life under a cloud. Naming a continent after him was out of the question. Vespucci benefitted from this.

  139. @Almost Missouri
    The big question to me is why the Viking contact to the New World didn't set off the big wave of epidemics that the later Columbian contact did?

    Were Vikings microbially cleaner than Mediterraneans?

    Or maybe in those colder northern climes, disease can't propagate like it can in the Caribbean?

    Or maybe the amount of contact between Viking and Skraelings simply wasn't sufficient?

    Or a combination?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buzz Mohawk, @Hypnotoad666, @J.Ross, @Lurker, @Frau Katze

    It took a while to get smallpox to Mexico, it arrived while Cortes was fighting the Aztecs in the 1520’s.

    You needed someone on the voyage to be carrying the disease, and other people who could keep the virus alive (ie were not immune) for the six week trip. No obviously ill person would have been taken, so you’d need someone in the stage between infection and symptoms.

    That took about 30 years and quite a few voyages. And their ships were larger than the Viking ships, making it easier to fit the criteria.

    Note that cholera did not get carried from India to Europe in the days of sail. The trip was so long that any sufferers either recovered or died en route. That changed with development of steamships.

    • Thanks: Almost Missouri
  140. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Almost Missouri

    The big wave of epidemics never happened.

    It was a conspiracy by American Indian medicine men and their chiefs to control their people. They made them all go around in masks and stay home in their teepees. The number of deaths was exaggerated, and it was mostly the elderly who died, people over 30, who already had lost all their teeth and were starving anyway. No dentistry then.

    As usual, the White Man was blamed.

    Replies: @kihowi, @Frau Katze

    You’re wrong. Cortes would not have won the war with the Aztecs without smallpox. It arrived just in time.

    Consider: the Europeans had horses and steel swords but were greatly outnumbered. They had some exceedingly primitive firearms.

    Cortes made an alliance with a coastal group who were angry with incessant Aztec demands for people to sacrifice. That alliance allowed his tiny group to get a toehold but he was eventually driven back to the coast. When he got there, smallpox had arrived.

    I don’t think it killed most of the natives in the first encounter. But it did kill enough Aztecs, including the new leader who ousted Montezuma to tip the balance to Cortes and his allies. He successfully stopped the human sacrifice.

    (The natives must have found Christianity rather dull compared to the old time religion.)

    It took repeated diseases to make a big difference. About a century.

    When African slaves were brought they came with a virulent strain of malaria and yellow fever. They required a type of mosquito that required warm temperatures.

    The natives at high altitudes survived best. Note that Europeans were themselves susceptible to yellow fever and the most virulent strain of malaria.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Frau Katze


    You’re wrong. Cortes would not have won the war with the Aztecs without smallpox. It arrived just in time.
     

    The natives at high altitudes survived best.
     
    Always true. Mountain people are superior (speaking -- in all good humor, OKAY! -- as a mountain person.)

    I hope you know I was joking earlier too. I can't tell. Around here, sometimes I have to wonder.


    https://e00-elmundo.uecdn.es/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2015/11/27/14486440369733.gif

    , @Rob
    @Frau Katze

    A virgin soil epidemic is different from an endemic disease, much worse. With endemic diseases, very few people are vulnerable (for diseases for which recovery entails immunity) largely kids.

    Don’t get me wrong, it is sad when a kid dies, but from an evolutionary perspective, the younger the better. Fewer resources have been invested in a one-year-old than a ten-year-old. Virgin soil? Everyone gets sick at around the same time. There is no one to provide nursing care. Rodney Stark says that a big reason for the high growth rate of Christians in Rome was that they were the only ones who nursed their own in plagues. Even just bringing a sick person water and carrying away waste can make a huge difference in survival rates. The Indians would have had less of that.

    Plus, when kids die, once again, that’s sad. But when the family’s provider dies, often the whole family will die. Happened a lot more with Indians than with whites.

    The thousands of years of evolution with nearly no infectious diseases made Indians especially vulnerable to disease. That is still playing out. Unadmixed Yanomami Indians had no T cell response to the smallpox vaccine. COVID kills Hispanics at a higher rate, adjusted for age, than whites. The difference, contra our worthless epidemiologists is certainly genetic.

    Not to mention, think of how Europeans thought the Black Death was the apocalypse. But there had been other infectious diseases. To a good approximation, the Indians only had syphilis and whatever causes arthritis. Coupled with the most-dissimilar people they had ever seen arriving, people with nearly incomprehensible equipment. Centaurs to boot, even. For people who had no large domestic, or I’m pretty sure, large wild animals, a horse was mighty impressive.

    When aliens arrive and people start dying like flies, it really looked like the end of the world. If aliens had landed in 2019 and COVID had had a 30% CFR, lots of people would have seen it as the apocalypse. Even without aliens lots of people would have seen that as the end. In a sense, the Conquistadors were the end of the world. Maybe the Aztecs had Quetzalcoatl in their religion, but a kindly white god of wisdom and rulership, with a beard and coming from the eastern sea to remake society? That is a mighty convenient myth for the Spaniards, don’t you think?

    If I had to guess at the future, if there were a serious collapse of modern infrastructure, in a few hundred years, the Hispanic population would be genetically a lot more European than it is now. I think it was in Ecuador where the Y chromosomes are nearly 100% European and the mitochondrial DNA is nearly 100% Indian. Naively, one would then expect the autosomal DNA to be half and half. But the autosomal DNA is around 70% European. The researchers thought that the immigration of Spanish men reproductively displaced the more Indian men in the country. That is possible. It is also possible that selection on the existing population caused European alleles to increase in frequency and lots of other European DNA went along for the ride. The researchers' scenario is also a tale of selection making the population less Indian. I, for one, would be very interested to know which European alleles were positively selected.

    There’s a blogger who is an Israeli water engineer who goes by J. He’s originally from Brazil, and he says that when he was young, Brazil was a lot blacker than it is today. While increased stratification is a possibility, such that the blacker population is in slums and invisible to visiting wealthy foreigners, it is also possible that European genes are replacing African ones due to selection. That would be a much better scenario, as it implies that eugenic reproduction can still happen in the modern world. J thinks it is the result of sexual selection. I think the scenario he gave was richer, more European men or their sons getting the maid pregnant. The mother and child received some financial support from the father, though it was not mandated by law, and better-fed half White kids did better than half-starving blacker kids.

    I’ve sometimes wondered what the biological effects of ending mandatory child support would be. On the one hand, it might discourage lower-income women from “marrying” up (I don’t mean marrying, but fucking up has another meaning. On the other hand, repealing mandatory child support would encourage higher-income men to have sex with lower-income women. Because any child support would be voluntary, the kids of men who invested in them would have some advantage over kids of less investing fathers. Would that have a eugenic effect? Right now, single mothers mostly “chose” fathers from their social class. Is that choice constrained by support laws? I do not know. Given that more highly educated women have very few kids, getting the women who do have kids to have better fathers seems like a winning proposition.

    Sorry to get so off track.

  141. @Bert
    @Corvinus


    In the worst, we have happily imbibed the image of ourselves as backward, uncivilised, barbaric, savage.
     
    Got it. HBD is fabricated White-supremist propaganda. Worldwide everyone is just a Quaker. LMAO at your Wokeism.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/worse-than-any-horror-film-inside-a-los-zetas-cartel-kitchen-1.4225436

    "Bloody handprints on walls, stained clothes, plastic cable ties, machetes and, as one person observes, the crunch of bones beneath a thick blanket of ash. Amid sobbing, families of some of Mexico’s estimated 60,000 disappeared absorb the scene at La Gallera ranch in northern Veracruz.

    A few metres from an abandoned single-storey house, an outdoor brick oven was once used to make the traditional corn dish zacahuil. After the Los Zetas cartel took over the ranch in 2011, however, it was used to incinerate its victims. In this part of Mexico, someone explains, brutality has stained language: “to zacahuil” can now mean to cook humans."

    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/06/21/mexicos_got_a_bullying_problem_blame_the_cartels.html

    https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Graphic-video-appears-to-show-Mexican-drug-cartel-6330205.php

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Got it. HBD is fabricated White-supremist propaganda. Worldwide everyone is just a Quaker. LMAO at your Wokeism.”

    Wow, a false premise, a wild generalization, and a false conclusion, all wrapped into one. The Sailer trifecta!

    And I imagine you relish your red herring with Grey Poupon as well. The fact of the matter is that drug cartels/mafia gangs, regardless if from Latin America, Asia, or Europe, are notorious for their brutality.

    But it’s not as if Europeans (or other groups of people throughout human history) also engaged in cannibalism, right?

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/

    When early Homo sapiens began engaging in cannibalism is a topic of debate, although it is clear they eventually did, says Sandra Bowdler, an emeritus professor of archeology at the University of Western Australia. Evidence is scant that this happened in early human hunter-gatherer communities, she says, although in 2009 Fernando Rozzi, at the Centre National de la Récherche Scientifique, in Paris, reported finding a Neanderthal jaw bone that may have been butchered by early humans.

    Even if Europe’s Homo sapiens didn’t consume each other in prehistory, they certainly did in more modern times. References to acts of cannibalism are sprinkled throughout many religious and historical documents, such as the reports that cooked human flesh was being sold in 11th-century English markets during times of famine, says Jay Rubenstein, a historian at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville.

    However, the world’s first cannibal incident reported by multiple, independent, first-hand accounts took place during the Crusades by European soldiers, Rubenstein says.

    These first-hand stories agree that in 1098, after a successful siege and capture of the Syrian city Ma’arra, Christian soldiers ate the flesh of local Muslims. Thereafter the facts get murky, Rubenstein says. Some chroniclers report that the bodies were secretly consumed in “wicked banquets” borne out of famine and without the authorization of military leaders, Rubenstein says. Other reports suggest the cannibalism was done with tacit approval of military superiors who wished to use stories of the barbaric act as a psychological fear tactic in future Crusade battles.

  142. @Polistra

    “It was the first time the Atlantic Ocean was crossed,” he said
     
    Scientist is first to prove a negative!

    Replies: @Mr. Anon, @Ben tillman, @James J O'Meara, @Muggles, @TomSchmidt

    Not even. He missed this:
    https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2019/05/the-mysterious-ancient-underwater-roman-relics-of-brazil/

    In the southeast region of the country of Brazil lies Guanabara Bay, off the coast of the major metropolis of Rio de Janeiro. It is the second largest bay in Brazil, but other than that there is nothing particularly special about it other than perhaps the large amount of pollution here. However, lying approximately 15 miles offshore, buried down in 100 feet of water across an area around the size of three tennis courts is a rather strange oddity. Here scattered along the bottom are various relics from ancient Rome, far from where they have any business being, and which have remained a baffling historical anomaly and conundrum that remains unsolved. …

    It wasn’t long before a diver named Jose Roberto Teixeira actually produced two of the strange artifacts, which were found to be a type of tall, tapered ceramic jars with two handles called amphorae, typically used by the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Phoenicians to carry around all manner of things such as wine, oil, water or grain during long sea voyages. This was certainly a rather odd thing to be pulled up from Guanabara Bay, as the first known European presence in Brazil is thought to date back to 1500, when Portuguese navigator Pedro Alvares Cabral reached these shores.

  143. @Frau Katze
    @Buzz Mohawk

    You’re wrong. Cortes would not have won the war with the Aztecs without smallpox. It arrived just in time.

    Consider: the Europeans had horses and steel swords but were greatly outnumbered. They had some exceedingly primitive firearms.

    Cortes made an alliance with a coastal group who were angry with incessant Aztec demands for people to sacrifice. That alliance allowed his tiny group to get a toehold but he was eventually driven back to the coast. When he got there, smallpox had arrived.

    I don’t think it killed most of the natives in the first encounter. But it did kill enough Aztecs, including the new leader who ousted Montezuma to tip the balance to Cortes and his allies. He successfully stopped the human sacrifice.

    (The natives must have found Christianity rather dull compared to the old time religion.)

    It took repeated diseases to make a big difference. About a century.

    When African slaves were brought they came with a virulent strain of malaria and yellow fever. They required a type of mosquito that required warm temperatures.

    The natives at high altitudes survived best. Note that Europeans were themselves susceptible to yellow fever and the most virulent strain of malaria.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Rob

    You’re wrong. Cortes would not have won the war with the Aztecs without smallpox. It arrived just in time.

    The natives at high altitudes survived best.

    Always true. Mountain people are superior (speaking — in all good humor, OKAY! — as a mountain person.)

    I hope you know I was joking earlier too. I can’t tell. Around here, sometimes I have to wonder.

  144. @Ebony Obelisk
    And indigenous people were in America 10,000 years before them so…

    Crazy how pressed ppl get when you tell them white folks didn’t actually discover America

    The Viking likely got their asses handed to them by a war party and went back home with cool stories just like jerkoff southerners did.

    Replies: @Wilkey, @peterike, @MEH 0910

  145. @Frau Katze
    @Buzz Mohawk

    You’re wrong. Cortes would not have won the war with the Aztecs without smallpox. It arrived just in time.

    Consider: the Europeans had horses and steel swords but were greatly outnumbered. They had some exceedingly primitive firearms.

    Cortes made an alliance with a coastal group who were angry with incessant Aztec demands for people to sacrifice. That alliance allowed his tiny group to get a toehold but he was eventually driven back to the coast. When he got there, smallpox had arrived.

    I don’t think it killed most of the natives in the first encounter. But it did kill enough Aztecs, including the new leader who ousted Montezuma to tip the balance to Cortes and his allies. He successfully stopped the human sacrifice.

    (The natives must have found Christianity rather dull compared to the old time religion.)

    It took repeated diseases to make a big difference. About a century.

    When African slaves were brought they came with a virulent strain of malaria and yellow fever. They required a type of mosquito that required warm temperatures.

    The natives at high altitudes survived best. Note that Europeans were themselves susceptible to yellow fever and the most virulent strain of malaria.

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Rob

    A virgin soil epidemic is different from an endemic disease, much worse. With endemic diseases, very few people are vulnerable (for diseases for which recovery entails immunity) largely kids.

    Don’t get me wrong, it is sad when a kid dies, but from an evolutionary perspective, the younger the better. Fewer resources have been invested in a one-year-old than a ten-year-old. Virgin soil? Everyone gets sick at around the same time. There is no one to provide nursing care. Rodney Stark says that a big reason for the high growth rate of Christians in Rome was that they were the only ones who nursed their own in plagues. Even just bringing a sick person water and carrying away waste can make a huge difference in survival rates. The Indians would have had less of that.

    Plus, when kids die, once again, that’s sad. But when the family’s provider dies, often the whole family will die. Happened a lot more with Indians than with whites.

    The thousands of years of evolution with nearly no infectious diseases made Indians especially vulnerable to disease. That is still playing out. Unadmixed Yanomami Indians had no T cell response to the smallpox vaccine. COVID kills Hispanics at a higher rate, adjusted for age, than whites. The difference, contra our worthless epidemiologists is certainly genetic.

    Not to mention, think of how Europeans thought the Black Death was the apocalypse. But there had been other infectious diseases. To a good approximation, the Indians only had syphilis and whatever causes arthritis. Coupled with the most-dissimilar people they had ever seen arriving, people with nearly incomprehensible equipment. Centaurs to boot, even. For people who had no large domestic, or I’m pretty sure, large wild animals, a horse was mighty impressive.

    When aliens arrive and people start dying like flies, it really looked like the end of the world. If aliens had landed in 2019 and COVID had had a 30% CFR, lots of people would have seen it as the apocalypse. Even without aliens lots of people would have seen that as the end. In a sense, the Conquistadors were the end of the world. Maybe the Aztecs had Quetzalcoatl in their religion, but a kindly white god of wisdom and rulership, with a beard and coming from the eastern sea to remake society? That is a mighty convenient myth for the Spaniards, don’t you think?

    If I had to guess at the future, if there were a serious collapse of modern infrastructure, in a few hundred years, the Hispanic population would be genetically a lot more European than it is now. I think it was in Ecuador where the Y chromosomes are nearly 100% European and the mitochondrial DNA is nearly 100% Indian. Naively, one would then expect the autosomal DNA to be half and half. But the autosomal DNA is around 70% European. The researchers thought that the immigration of Spanish men reproductively displaced the more Indian men in the country. That is possible. It is also possible that selection on the existing population caused European alleles to increase in frequency and lots of other European DNA went along for the ride. The researchers’ scenario is also a tale of selection making the population less Indian. I, for one, would be very interested to know which European alleles were positively selected.

    There’s a blogger who is an Israeli water engineer who goes by J. He’s originally from Brazil, and he says that when he was young, Brazil was a lot blacker than it is today. While increased stratification is a possibility, such that the blacker population is in slums and invisible to visiting wealthy foreigners, it is also possible that European genes are replacing African ones due to selection. That would be a much better scenario, as it implies that eugenic reproduction can still happen in the modern world. J thinks it is the result of sexual selection. I think the scenario he gave was richer, more European men or their sons getting the maid pregnant. The mother and child received some financial support from the father, though it was not mandated by law, and better-fed half White kids did better than half-starving blacker kids.

    I’ve sometimes wondered what the biological effects of ending mandatory child support would be. On the one hand, it might discourage lower-income women from “marrying” up (I don’t mean marrying, but fucking up has another meaning. On the other hand, repealing mandatory child support would encourage higher-income men to have sex with lower-income women. Because any child support would be voluntary, the kids of men who invested in them would have some advantage over kids of less investing fathers. Would that have a eugenic effect? Right now, single mothers mostly “chose” fathers from their social class. Is that choice constrained by support laws? I do not know. Given that more highly educated women have very few kids, getting the women who do have kids to have better fathers seems like a winning proposition.

    Sorry to get so off track.

    • Thanks: Almost Missouri
  146. anon[386] • Disclaimer says:

    #106

    “The only Vikings of some worth were those who became regional French, Normans.”

    Eh, well there were the eastern “Vikings,” which the Greeks knew as “Varangians,” who seem to have been the Rus. They were very active in the Hanseatic League, founding the trading city of Novgorod in the north, and, of course, the Russian state at Kiev. Among their other activities, they, in concert with the Persians, destroyed the Khazar slave-trading empire. Perhaps this helps us to understand the modern Jewish determination to eliminate the Nordics and the Iranians from the face of the earth: a grudge match. In any case the descendants of the “regional” french Normans and the piratical Varangian Rus changed the course of history in a rather large way after all, the failures in Greenland and Newfoundland not withstanding.

  147. anon[978] • Disclaimer says:

    #147

    “He’s originally from Brazil, and he says that when he was young, Brazil was a lot blacker than it is today. ”

    I read the same thing in some book about Brazil that was published in the 1940s. The author ascribed this phenomenon to a deliberate policy on the part of the Brazilian establishment which they called “Aryanization.” According to this guy, their idea was to breed the Negroid characteristics out of the Negro through the “superior absorptive power” of white genetics. In other words, the way to get rid of the Negro was to f–k him (her) white. It still “racist” of course, but a rather interesting inversion to the idea of simply killing him off. I suppose more humane. Knowing the Brasileros though, I would have to guess this was more likely just an excuse to plank the maid. However, Rio in the 1990s, while overall quite tan, appeared to have much less in the way of dark chocolate than Chicago. Not a few blue-eyed roons and brown-eyed blonds.

    • Thanks: Almost Missouri
  148. @Corvinus
    “Interestingly, a lot of copper was mined around and in Lake Superior, but North American Indians didn’t develop smelting“

    Per usual, context is required.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-42185-y

    Perhaps they simply didn’t see the need to use it because they were fine with what they had, or were not compelled by an environmental need to improve or innovate. South American indigenous groups had the wheel, but they walked or got around by canoe. So they were not drive by a desire to find alternate means of transport.

    Replies: @Polistra, @Calvin Hobbes, @Whiskey, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Nachum

    Wheels don’t make much sense if you don’t have roads, even unpaved ones. The Andes aren’t a very good place for roads. So they had llama toys with wheels for kids, but didn’t use them for transport, because an actual llama did the work much better.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Nachum

    “Wheels don’t make much sense if you don’t have roads, even unpaved ones. The Andes aren’t a very good place for roads. So they had llama toys with wheels for kids, but didn’t use them for transport, because an actual llama did the work much better.”

    Right. Environmental factors determined how and why people there would make innovations to suit their needs. They weren’t compelled to use the wheel for transport because they already had the means to travel, which was fine for them. To outsiders, it made no sense. But that’s because Europeans had a different frame of reference, and believed anyone who did not exactly match their level of technology were inherently inferior.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

  149. Bronze age transatlantic (or pacific) trade with lake Superior copper miners is something a determined academic in archaeology, metallurgy or paleontology could figure out. The lack of copper artifacts in the Americas, and the big holes in the lake Superior mines sure are weird.

  150. @Expletive Deleted
    @Steve Sailer

    Also, as any Englishman recollects, the vikings were exclusively and viciously homosexual when going about their voyages. No room for foids on the boat.
    So unless the redmen carelessly left squaws alone in the woods, bent over gathering berries, the beardymen were prevented from reproducing, even accidentally. So they would never reappear in the genetic record.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Also, as any Englishman recollects, the vikings were exclusively and viciously homosexual when going about their voyages.“

    Citations required.

  151. @Nachum
    @Corvinus

    Wheels don't make much sense if you don't have roads, even unpaved ones. The Andes aren't a very good place for roads. So they had llama toys with wheels for kids, but didn't use them for transport, because an actual llama did the work much better.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Wheels don’t make much sense if you don’t have roads, even unpaved ones. The Andes aren’t a very good place for roads. So they had llama toys with wheels for kids, but didn’t use them for transport, because an actual llama did the work much better.”

    Right. Environmental factors determined how and why people there would make innovations to suit their needs. They weren’t compelled to use the wheel for transport because they already had the means to travel, which was fine for them. To outsiders, it made no sense. But that’s because Europeans had a different frame of reference, and believed anyone who did not exactly match their level of technology were inherently inferior.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Corvinus

    One should say Eurasians in general. The Arabs looked down on Black Africans for being savages, the Persians looked down on Arabs, and the Chinese looked down on everyone. They were all correct.

    This doesn't make your initial point wrong. Each people grow differently for different reasons. Nonetheless, each people pay a price if they get caught by another unprepared.

    It will be said the same of Men as a whole if Space Mongols, Space Lakota, or the Space British ever show up here.

  152. @Corvinus
    @Nachum

    “Wheels don’t make much sense if you don’t have roads, even unpaved ones. The Andes aren’t a very good place for roads. So they had llama toys with wheels for kids, but didn’t use them for transport, because an actual llama did the work much better.”

    Right. Environmental factors determined how and why people there would make innovations to suit their needs. They weren’t compelled to use the wheel for transport because they already had the means to travel, which was fine for them. To outsiders, it made no sense. But that’s because Europeans had a different frame of reference, and believed anyone who did not exactly match their level of technology were inherently inferior.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    One should say Eurasians in general. The Arabs looked down on Black Africans for being savages, the Persians looked down on Arabs, and the Chinese looked down on everyone. They were all correct.

    This doesn’t make your initial point wrong. Each people grow differently for different reasons. Nonetheless, each people pay a price if they get caught by another unprepared.

    It will be said the same of Men as a whole if Space Mongols, Space Lakota, or the Space British ever show up here.

  153. @Corvinus
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Granitestone, beotch.

    https://www.amazon.com/GRANITESTONE-2660-Granite-Master-Cookware/dp/B07XSM984V

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    You’re advertising the fact that you have the palate of a billy goat?

  154. Anonymous[222] • Disclaimer says:

    The precursor to the wheel is the log. Moving heavy objects by rolling logs under them. At some point a clever person looked at this and thought of wheels.

    This never happened in the Americas some reason.

    It also helped to have pack animals. The Aztecs had no such creatures.

    The Incas had llamas, but lived up in mountains where roads were poor to non-existent and so wheeled vehicles would have been useless.

    The Incas and Aztecs also had no knowledge of each other. There was nobody who had lived in both societies and could put 2 and 2 together: why don’t we breed this animal on the plains of Mexico and use it to pull heavy loads.

  155. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Paleo Liberal

    When you fly over the North Atlantic, you are glad all these pieces of land exist, and you wish they were more evenly spaced and closer together. A bridge indeed.

    Replies: @JMcG

    You’re not kidding. That’s an awful lot of very cold ocean down there. I don’t think I’ll ever get used to ETOPs.

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