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Are Women Less Cult Classic-Oriented Than Men?
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From the Washington Post:

‘The Big Lebowski’ is 20. We reached out to the critics who panned it to see what they think now.

By Eli Rosenberg March 7

… But there is a small group of people who were not impressed with the film, at least when it came out: Many critics were quick to dismiss it as self-indulgent and chaotic.

The public didn’t think much of it either upon its theatrical release in 1998: It opened soft and didn’t particularly show legs, winding up with $17 million in North America, the equivalent of $34 million today. That’s not terrible, but nobody much noticed the movie until it started showing up on cable TV the next year, at which point it seemed extremely funny.

This was the Coen Brothers’ seventh movie since Blood Simple in 1985, all of which had enjoyed some critical acclaim except The Hudsucker Proxy (which I think is hilarious but nobody else does). Their previous film, Fargo, had won some Oscars. (It’s possible that Fargo’s Oscars hurt the initial reception of The Big Lebowski by raising expectations of An Important Statement or some such.)

We took a look at some of the more negative reviews of the film written after its release on March 6, 1998, and reached out with a simple query for the critics who penned them: Would you review “The Big Lebowski” similarly now? Or has your opinion of the movie changed with the benefit of two decades’ time?

Obviously, the question of whether a comedy is a good movie depends upon how funny it is.

But a lot of critics couldn’t follow the plot and didn’t seem to grasp that The Big Lebowski was inspired by a famous anecdote about the making of the 1946 film noir The Big Sleep that is one of the better known stories in the screenwriting trade. From an LA Times article in 1997:

Probably the best-known remark about the famously scrambled plot of “The Big Sleep” belongs to Raymond Chandler, author of the novel on which the 1946 movie was based. Asked who killed the Sternwoods’ chauffeur, a key murder left unsolved at the movie’s end, Chandler replied: “I don’t know.”

Neither the director (Howard Hawks) nor the screenwriters (William Faulkner and Leigh Brackett, who adapted alternate chapters from the novel; Jules Furthman, who did rewrites and provided some of the best Bogart-Bacall wisecracks; and Philip Epstein, who wrote added scenes and inserted the sexiest double-entendres) ever did figure it out.

The Coens’ Barton Fink had featured John Mahoney playing a version of Faulkner in exile in Hollywood, so it should have been pretty obvious that it was riffing on Chandler’s lack of interest in the whodunnit aspects of his detective stories.

Now, it’s perfectly reasonable to argue that the lack of effort put into the plot in both the novel and movie of The Big Sleep are defects. But they were still awfully influential in the history of movies and literary Los Angeles. And the Coens’ idea of doing a Big Sleep tribute/travesty in which dope addicts / bowlers do a half-assed job of investigating a convoluted and somewhat pointless plot should have been recognized as promising.

Critic Daphne Merkin re-assessed in 2018:

In some ways, the dude and his disconnected dudeness has a certain appeal now, maybe because the world has grown more horrendous or reality is less bearable than when the film was made.

No child will ever smile again until Trump is gone from the White House. Has it been mandatory since November 9, 2016 to insert an assertion of the horribleness of the current moment in all cultural commentary?

I still think it’s basically more of a guy’s flick, than a woman’s.

This is the kind of thing that critics aren’t supposed to say, but it explains a lot. That raises the question: what women’s movies are cult films?

There are movies that appeal largely to women like the Twilight and Fifty Shades series, but they tend not to be very good. Good movies that appeal mostly to women that reach cult status tend to be due to gay men creating a cult around them.

The most similar women’s movie to The Big Lebowski is likely the 1997 comedy Romy and Michele’s High School Reunion about two Venice Beach blondes played by Lisa Kudrow and Mira Sorvino. That made $29 million at the domestic box office, which was enough to be modestly profitable.

I had never heard of a Romy and Michele cult, but now I see a few articles referring to it as a cult classic. Searching on Google for:

“Romy and Michele’s High School Reunion” cult

gives 29,000 hits, while a similar search for the Coen Brothers movie brings up 450,000 hits, so the guy movie is about 16x as cultish as the girl movie. Granted, the Coen Brothers are better at comedy than the people who made Romy and Michele, but they weren’t bad. For example, the director, David Mirkin, wrote this:

In general, are women less nostalgic than men?

 
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  1. Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @McSwag
    @Mr. Blank

    "Cult" means a lack of commercial success...obscure or niche...ABBA was f**king huge.

    , @TGGP
    @Mr. Blank

    Pride and Prejudice was popular when it was initially published, so it seems odd to deem it "cult literature".

    Replies: @whorefinder

    , @whorefinder
    @Mr. Blank

    But again, Steve is right: Grease developed a following because of gay men. Musical + John Travolta + transgressive sex + hints of rough trade(Travolta/leather jackets/grease monkeys)= gay following.

    , @Percy Gryce
    @Mr. Blank

    Fried Green Tomatoes, Steel Magnolias?

    Replies: @ia

    , @Jimi
    @Mr. Blank

    Women cult classics:

    Eat Pray Love;
    How Stella Got Her Groove Back;
    Thelma and Louise;
    The Princess Bride;
    Clueless;
    When Harry Met Sally
    Heathers

    , @Stan Adams
    @Mr. Blank

    ABBA and cult films are not mutually exclusive.

    This Mommie Dearest mashup was a big hit at many gay clubs:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv8nK05xakw

    , @Rotten
    @Mr. Blank

    "Bride Wars" and "How to lose a guy in 10 days" seem to be cult movies loved by women, but were they too popular at release to be considered cult movies?

  2. Are Women Less Cult Classic-Oriented Than Men? … In general, are women less nostalgic than men?

    Nah, women just like different things than men do.

    Go to any 80’s night, 60’s night or 70’s night. Guys show up in street clothes, perhaps wearing a period-correct band t-shirt at the most. The women have clearly spent days assembling perfectly spot-on outfits, hair, shoes and accessories.

    Can you differentiate between Colonial Style, Regency Style and Second Empire Style antiques? Neither can I, but I bet Mrs. Sailer can!

    Who watches all those Masterpiece Theatre costume dramas and keeps Mr. Darcy and Heathcliff pinned to the top of the bestseller charts for 200 years?

    If a woman’s into fashion, she can talk your ear off about so-and-so’s groundbreaking 1991 collection, Liz Taylor’s outfit at the ’53 Oscars, everything Audrey Hepburn ever wore in a film, and so on. Women who enjoy cooking impress each other with tales of when they decided on a whim to spend the day making Julia Child’s boeuf bourguignon.

    My mom and her friends (late Boomer/early Gen X) still follow Bruce Springsteen and Jon Bon Jovi just as assiduously as they did as teenyboppers. Non-anecdotally, remember that article you posted a few days back about favorite songs? Women’s favorite songs were, on average, released when they were 12 years old, compared with 14 for men.

    Back to anecdotes, Netflix’s 80’s nostalgia-fest Stranger Things achieved the nearest to 50-50 gender parity in terms of interest and enthusiasm of any sci-fi work I can remember.

    I had never heard of a Romy and Michele cult, but now I see a few articles referring to it as a cult classic. Searching on Google for:

    “Romy and Michele’s High School Reunion” cult

    gives 29,000 hits, while a similar search for the Coen Brothers movie brings up 450,000 hits, so the guy movie is about 16x as cultish as the girl movie.

    Admittedly a very unscientific exercise (and when does a film become too popular to be a cult film?), but https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22love%20actually%22%20cult

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    @snorlax


    Back to anecdotes, Netflix’s 80′s nostalgia-fest Stranger Things achieved the nearest to 50-50 gender parity in terms of interest and enthusiasm of any sci-fi work I can remember.
     
    Normally sci-fi is a male genre. Stranger Things is a childrens' adventure story with added emotions. Hence it was more popular with women despite being about little gang of boys a la Stand By Me. Any man who doesn't pike Stand By Me has issues but it barely registers with women who don't have sons.

    My wife and I both liked it, but I don't recognise it as actual sci-fi. That element merely comes from its style being a pastiche of various efforts from the 80s. I liked the music plus the Stand By Me stuff and my wife liked the kids' adventure story.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel

  3. Of course, because it takes brains. To enjoy something as a cult classic you have to mentally step away from it. While you’re watching, part of your brain is thinking about how its peculiarities contrast with regular movies or how its awfulness is so perfect that it becomes good again or how it reflects the age in which is was made. You can’t just experience them just with your immediate feelings because a lot of the time they kind of suck that way.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @kihowi

    Enjoying a cult classic does not "take brains." It takes a desire to demonstrate status and taste amongst one's buddies, which is why "cult classics" are probably most popular among college-aged bros. A staple of every young American dude's dorm room is at least one poster of a movie that's considered a cult classic.

    , @Roderick Spode
    @kihowi

    I'm sorry your Mom was so unpleasant to you.

    Replies: @kihowi

  4. • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Lex

    Thanks.

    , @JMcG
    @Lex

    How did I forget The Sound of Music? My wife will drop everything if that comes on.

    Replies: @whorefinder

  5. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Women love THE NOTEBOOK.

    Me?

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    AGNES OF GOD had a cult following. Dumb movie.

    I love MYSTIC PIZZA.

    Didn’t see STEEL MAGNOLIAS and PRETTY WOMAN, big hit with women. Didn’t see TERMS OF ENDEARMENT either.

    CARRIE, that’s a classic.

    PIANO was supposed to be a big feminist movie. It was terrible, and it’s all forgotten.

    I’VE HEARD THE MERMAIDS SINGING was a cult movie for a time. Awful crap.

    LEGEND OF BILLIE JEAN might have become a cult classic. Interesting setup but bad execution.

    Jaglom’s DEJA VU has some big fans among women.

    I’ve noticed INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE is bigger among women.

    WELCOME HOME ROXY CARMICHAEL was a fav among girls.

    LOVE STORY… Maybe women liked it more but I think plenty of men loved it too.

    Possible cult titles: CARRIE, STEPFORD WIVES, TAMING OF THE SHREW, GONE WITH THE WIND, BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY’S, METROPOLITAN, IMITATION OF LIFE, WHATEVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE, BONNIE AND CLYDE, PERSONA, any version of CARMEN story, SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS, ASHES OF TIME, SWEPT AWAY, JULES AND JIM, MCCABE AND MRS MILLER, BIRDS, REBECCA, EARRINGS OF MADAME DE, ASH WEDNESDAY, TWO WOMEN, SHEILA LEVINE IS DEAD AND LIVING IN NY, DEAD RINGERS, AUNTIE MAME, AFRICAN QUEEN, LOLITA, TIE ME UP TIE ME DOWN, INSIDE DAISY CLOVER, ANNE OF A 1000 DAYS, BAREFOOT IN THE PARK, ROSEMARY’S BABY, MAKIOKA SISTERS, BLUE VELVET, MEET ME IN ST LOUIS, MOMMIE DEAREST, SUNSET BOULEVARD, NINOTCHKA, BRINGING UP BABY, HANA AND ALICE, CHILLY SCENES OF WINTER, CHINATOWN, LA STRADA, STORY OF ADELE H., CELINE AND JULIE GO BOATING, HEATHERS, EYES OF LAURA MARS.

    I think one of the problems with ‘nostalgia’ for women is that their culture and attitudes have changed so much more than men’s.

    Men are still men, into Guy stuff. The dude is hippie but also eternal. What Kael called the ‘shaggy man’. He’s a rebel and free spirit. There are characters like that in John Ford movies and before.

    In contrast, women’s attitudes have changed so much over the yrs and their minds are so politicized that many girls today cannot relate to something like MILDRED PIERCE which I love.

    TWILIGHT was surprising because it was ‘classic’ in many ways but still was a hit with today’s girls. May not good but well-made at least.

    In the age of LENA DUNHAM and MILEY CYRUS, can girls relate to older movies when women had some dignity or style, like Patricia Neal in THE FOUNTAINHEAD?

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    @Anon

    Gone with the Wind, The African Queen, and Meet Me in St. Louis?! Like so many else contributing to this exchange, you've completely lost the plot to propose films such as these as so-called "cult classics" or candidates for that categorisation.

    These kinds of films are no more cult classics than is Shaun White an underdog athlete or is Gavin Newsome a dark horse candidate to become the governor of Mexinchifornia.

    Words have meanings, friends.

    Replies: @Anon

  6. In some ways, the dude and his disconnected dudeness has a certain appeal now, maybe because the world has grown more horrendous or reality is less bearable than when the film was made.

    I think this is basically true. For me, all I want is an absolute reduction in insanity around me. To the left, any reduction in the rate of acceleration (third derivative I believe) towards what I consider insanity, they now are (((scientifically))) “proving” is insane.

    I don’t see how we will be able to maintain the illusion it is possible for us to live under the same set of rules for much longer. I have virtually nothing in common with those ruling me. That makes reality pretty horrendous and unbearable.

  7. I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn’t explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @G

    The Harry Potter films went over to a mostly female audience by the end. Of course, they were hugely popular at the time of release so it would be hard to call them cult classics.

    The Big Lebowski may not really be a good example of a cult classic either since it appears to be broadly popular among, say, white men age 35 to 60. It was really only overlooked for a year or two. I didn't bother seeing it when it came out, but then saw it on TV about a year later and thought it was hilarious. About the fourth time I saw it I started getting tired of it, but I get bored easily. And it holds up extremely well on Youtube clips, which is a culturally important medium today.

    For example, the most recent Coen Brothers movie "Hail, Caesar!" didn't really have much momentum as a 2 hour long movie in the theater. But as a collection of Youtube clips it works very well. It's kind of a greatest hits collection of fun stuff for different movie stars to goof on.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle, @Jim Christian, @Charles Pewitt, @SonOfStrom

    , @Neoconned
    @G

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Central_High

    Heather's is based off a weird 1970s school massacre film

    Replies: @Hodag

    , @S. Anonyia
    @G

    For female equivalent of "cult classics" look to movies that artistic hipster girls enjoy watching in their teens and early 20s. That would be Heathers, Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion, Secretary, Vanilla Sky, Garden State, Edward Scissorhands, Almost Famous..... all those 80s rat pack films Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles, etc.

    Some of these movies were fairly popular when they came out so maybe they aren't technically cult classics but no one really watches them anymore aside from people who consider them cult classics.

    Raving about a cult classic is a very much a snobby pretentious young person thing. Among young people men are probably a little more insecure about looking cool therefore cult classics are more of a thing among men. I used to take pride in my taste in movies/music but past 25 I stopped caring. Some of the what I liked was actually good, some I just consumed because I thought it demonstrated status and refinement among my group...

    , @Anonymous
    @G

    Thelma & Louise... comes to mind. But this is likely due to lesbians.

    Usually, it's cheesy romances like 'Dirty Dancing' or 'Ghost' that are cultish. Women watch them knowing it's camp. They like to ogle some hunk like Patrick Swayze with their friends, and they know all the dialogue like gays would know Rocky Horror's

    , @Tyrion 2
    @G

    Lots of movies are cult popular with girls. Favourites at all girls boarding schools in the 2000s include quite revealing movies such as: Empire Records, The Lost Boys and, number one for teenage girls, Girl Interrupted - a story of extreme self-indulgent borderline emotionalism - paging Whiskey!

    , @TheMediumIsTheMassage
    @G

    That's because of gays, who control most of the online tumblr/twitter .gif culture that largely dictates what becomes iconic nowadays in terms of that kind of film and TV show, not because of women.

    , @The preferred nomenclature is...
    @G

    I kid you not I had a young white female (late 20's) as an orthopedic surgery scheduler that had the Dude's face tattooed on one of her calves. This was in 2011.

    This gal was a solid 5.

    , @b.t.o
    @G

    Mean Girls for sure

    , @James Kabala
    @G

    Mean Girls was probably too popular on first release to be considered a cult classic, but it is interesting to see that it, and Anchorman which also still has a following, ranked below forgotten things such as Starsky and Hutch or Along Came Polly (not to mention The Grudge, which is seven places higher than Mean Girls but which I cannot remember that I ever heard of before).

    Replies: @James Kabala

  8. My millennial children, both son and daughter love The Big Lebowski. They think I am just like The Dude.

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Highlander

    you're a lucky man.

  9. Whatever their talents and virtues, the Coen brothers are, imho, just too depressing.

  10. female cult films: Grease, Pride and Prejudice, Mama Mia etc

    • Replies: @McSwag
    @notanon

    A cult classic is a film that wasn't a huge commercial success...something you can't say about those three films...Grease being huge and liked by me and just about everyone, male and female, in the school I went to...being only 10 years old at the time.

  11. There are plenty of popular, cult-like movies aimed at women, and a lot of them are objectively good. They tend to have romance plots, but that isn’t any more objectively good or bad than a crime plot or a horror plot or a humor plot. Here are a few well-done movies that have achieved cult level status with some women.

    Pride and Prejudice (one of about 3 versions)
    Sense and Sensibility
    Shakespeare in Love
    Dirty Dancing
    Pretty Woman
    When Harry Met Sally
    Titanic
    You’ve Got Mail
    Little Women
    The Princess Bride
    Amelie
    Emma
    The Devil Wears Prada

    Most of these are very good movies. And to the guy who dismissed Jane Austen the writer, you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Not only are the books very good, but she was extremely important in the history of novel writing, developing a lot of the scene and sequel structure that is the foundation of nearly every novel written.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @KM32

    Okay, but not too many of those movies were ever seen as kind of weird and unpopular.

    Pride and Prejudice is pretty close to, say, Romeo and Juliet as a foundational classic of literature.

    Replies: @snorlax

  12. You’ve obviously missed a number of chick cult classics, like the Bridget Jones series, Four Weddings & a Funeral, Notting Hill, ad nauseum. And all that Austen crap. If women seem less nostalgic, it’s because they hold this stuff to be timeless.

    • Replies: @sabril
    @The Alarmist

    To be sure there is entertainment that is timelessly popular among women, but do they create rabid subcultures around it? Are there chick flick conventions at the Javits Center? I've never checked but I kinda doubt it.

    No, it seems the basic pattern is that subcultures are created by men, and then if those subcultures start gaining mainstream cache, women glom on.

    Which makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. As Robin Hanson would say, anime culture really isn't about anime at all. What's actually going on is men forming a faction and bonding over shared interests. If that faction rises in status and influence, it will naturally attract women.

    , @Tom-in-VA
    @The Alarmist

    My wife and sons are big Lebowski fans, my daughter not so much. My wife and daughter, however, will watch “Love, Actually” over and over and quote lines from it all the time.

    , @TJ hooker
    @The Alarmist

    I think we need to distinguish between a "chick flick" (a movie whose popularity is skewed heavily to women) and "female cult classic" (a movie only hugely popular to small-ish subset of women??? or only popular latter). I would says most these were popular female films. Add Dirty Dancing to that list.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  13. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    The Harry Potter films went over to a mostly female audience by the end. Of course, they were hugely popular at the time of release so it would be hard to call them cult classics.

    The Big Lebowski may not really be a good example of a cult classic either since it appears to be broadly popular among, say, white men age 35 to 60. It was really only overlooked for a year or two. I didn’t bother seeing it when it came out, but then saw it on TV about a year later and thought it was hilarious. About the fourth time I saw it I started getting tired of it, but I get bored easily. And it holds up extremely well on Youtube clips, which is a culturally important medium today.

    For example, the most recent Coen Brothers movie “Hail, Caesar!” didn’t really have much momentum as a 2 hour long movie in the theater. But as a collection of Youtube clips it works very well. It’s kind of a greatest hits collection of fun stuff for different movie stars to goof on.

    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    @Steve Sailer

    Most of the Harry Potter films were written by Steve Kloves, who also wrote, and directed, The Fabulous Baker Boys, which is a good candidate for a female oriented cult classic.

    , @Jim Christian
    @Steve Sailer

    The feminist cult flick Georgia Rules with (shocker) Jane Fonda starring is full of the themes that ought to make it a big cult film for strong women. It has all the hallmarks. Covering three generations of libbers, it depicts a supposedly molesting second husband, a slutty 15 year old girl, a drunken divorced single mother and a stern, strong grandmother who saw through the demon molester all along.

    , @Charles Pewitt
    @Steve Sailer

    OFF TOPIC, BUT WOMEN INVOLVED

    A young American woman named Brittany Pettibone has been detained and sent to a prison in the United Kingdom for alleged political crimes. The political crime was she was going to meet with a British political activist and speak at the famous speaker's corner at Hyde Park.

    Brittany Pettibone is a Trump supporter who is pro-sovereignty and pro-free speech. She is a nice young lady, who even has the guts to say she doesn't support Trump's negotiating tactic of offering amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. Pettibone has covered many of the free speech events that the Antifa thugs have attacked, including at least one of the Battles of Berkeley.

    Katie Hopkins is a solid Brit woman who has sent out this Tweet about Pettibone's political detention in the United Kingdom:

    https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/972789498747805696

    Brittany Pettibone at one of the Battles of Berkeley:

    https://youtu.be/dXP1H1h5uII

    , @SonOfStrom
    @Steve Sailer

    Case in point (and on point):

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XVCtkzIXYzQ

  14. As notanon says, Grease. I do know one woman, a wonderful woman, who will stop to watch a little Ferris Bueller whenever it comes on.
    Maybe The Princess Bride? It is kind of de rigeur to say you like The Princess Bride though.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    @JMcG

    I was wondering about that myself. After all, there are kissing parts:

    "They're kissing again. Do we have to read the kissing parts?"

    But I think The Princess Bride is definitively a guy movie that makes a knowing tip of the hat to chick movies. Princess Buttercup herself is, when all is said and done, a MacGuffin.

    The heart of the movie is about male courage and dedication, males contesting against each other, bonding with each other and finding meaning in their lives.

    , @fitzGetty
    @JMcG

    ... yes, yes — dig that Mies’y house in Ferris Bueller, steel & glass among the leaves ...

  15. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Central_High

    Heather’s is based off a weird 1970s school massacre film

    • Replies: @Hodag
    @Neoconned

    A lot of Heathers referenced the band The Replacements.

  16. I’m watching Battlefield Earth on cable right now and it’s not that bad. No, it’s not good – it’s a piece of shit, actually – but it has most if not all the elements that make a cult classic: bad acting, lame dialogue, shitty CGI, hackneyed plot. Plus it boasts a breddy gud cast for such a fourth-rate film: a scenery chewing John Travolta, Barry Pepper, Forrest Whitaker and Kim Coates. (No relation to Ta-Nehisi, I presume.)

    As sheer entertainment, it beats Alien: Covenant by a sight.

  17. What about The Craft? I’ve read that that film is considered to be a female cult classic as well. At any rate, I think the most important factor here is the plot of a movie itself. Mean Girls, The Craft, Heathers, etc. all have a natural genre appeal to teenage girls, regardless of these films’ initial popularity.

    Based on this evidence, cult classics seem to be made by men or women, but which direction it goes seems to depend on the given movie’s genre.

  18. Here’s Wikipedia’s definition of cult film:

    A cult film or cult movie , also commonly referred to as a cult classic , is a film that has acquired a cult following . Cult films are known for their dedicated, passionate fanbase , an elaborate subculture that engage in repeated viewings, quoting dialogue, and audience participation

    “cult” and “culture” have the same root and here they have similar meanings. It seems that in general, subcultures are created by men and women get on board once they have widespread acceptance.

    An interesting exception to this pattern is roller derby and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that roller derby is known as a lesbian sport.

    Probably there are old movies which women enjoy, but I don’t think that women have the same instinct as men to create a subculture around such movies.

    From an evolutionary perspective, it seems that there is risk in organizing and joining an emerging subculture. Women are programmed to be risk averse, which is a nice way of saying that their instinct is to sit on the sidelines, wait to see who the winners are, and then trade sexual access for the spoils of success.

  19. Fried Green Tomatoes?

  20. Hollywood insists that by box office receipts, women buy just as many tickets as men. I would like to know their methodology for determining that, because I just don’t believe it, but ok, lets accept that at face value.

    Maybe the whole idea of a cult classic is that it uniquely appeals to men. My experience has been that you can’t get a woman to even sit through The Warriors, Big Trouble in Little China, or Kick-ass, (Especially Kick-ass), let alone a clearly feminist screed like Faster Pussycat, Kill! Kill!, or its illegitimate child Bitch Slap. If there are films with unique female appeal, my brain can’t even remember the titles, and it goes without saying I wouldn’t watch the films. If you are going to try to come up with cult classics with unique female appeal, I think you would start with the Horror and Musical genres (especially Horror) the two film genres that I utterly loathe.

    Hate to say it, or even think about it, but I suspect films like Texas Chain Saw Massacre, Anti-Christ, and Cannibal Holocaust appeal more to women than men, which if true, is really unfortunate. And I am certain that all the soft core porny, S&My crap like Fifty Shades, Every Vampire film etc, are overwhelmingly female attended films. Yech.

    I really hope I am wrong, and everybody else is right, that female appealing cult classics include Romy And Michelle, Clueless, and The Notebook- none of which strike me as especially cultish.

    Well just great, now I am really wondering, and could ask every woman I know what their favorite cult classic movies are, but I doubt I would get an honest answer, so no help there.

  21. How about “Mean Girls” for a chick cult classic?

  22. Steve “gets” all the Coen Brothers films but never got Twilight, as Priss Factory famously put it! Me, I never got either, particularly not “Brother where art Thou?”.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @BB753

    Me on "Twilight:"

    http://takimag.com/article/twilight_hit_for_the_same_reasons_knight_and_day_flopped/print#axzz59TjFJwt1

    Replies: @DCThrowback

  23. Donald Trump is kind of like the Antichrist for Jews and leftists. The Rocky Horror Picture Show is an example of a girl cult movie though it probably does just as well with gay guys.

  24. In general, women are more conventional than men.

    What makes a cult movie a cult movie? They’re weird. Even very conventional men have a greater appreciation for the weird than most women do. Are there any movies some women quote, like some men quote “Strangelove”, “Spinal Tap”, and the like?

    “What knockers!”

    Counterpoint: Literally every girl I slept with in college (late 80s) was a fan of the movie “Blue Velvet”. I remembered this recently when the current one (ten years younger than me) mentioned loving it (she liked “Lebowski” btw). I think the same director did “Twin Peaks”, one of the silliest, most somnolent messes ever broadcast, in *my* personal opinion. But the clove-cigarette girls find something fascinating there that I don’t.

    • Replies: @The preferred nomenclature is...
    @Wilbur Hassenfus

    I knew a couple of goody too shoes gals in the late 80's who loved Blue Velvet. A group of us watched it all the time.

    , @Stan Adams
    @Wilbur Hassenfus


    I think the same director did “Twin Peaks”, one of the silliest, most somnolent messes ever broadcast, in *my* personal opinion.
     
    David Lynch. He did Eraserhead, The Elephant Man, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive.

    He also did (and then disowned) Dune with Kyle MacLachlan and Sting.

    Lynch's daughter Jennifer did Boxing Helena, one of the silliest movies ever made.
  25. What about Heathers?

  26. Being obsessed with details of an obscure nature seems to be something that people “on the spectrum do”. And that skews male.

  27. @Steve Sailer
    @G

    The Harry Potter films went over to a mostly female audience by the end. Of course, they were hugely popular at the time of release so it would be hard to call them cult classics.

    The Big Lebowski may not really be a good example of a cult classic either since it appears to be broadly popular among, say, white men age 35 to 60. It was really only overlooked for a year or two. I didn't bother seeing it when it came out, but then saw it on TV about a year later and thought it was hilarious. About the fourth time I saw it I started getting tired of it, but I get bored easily. And it holds up extremely well on Youtube clips, which is a culturally important medium today.

    For example, the most recent Coen Brothers movie "Hail, Caesar!" didn't really have much momentum as a 2 hour long movie in the theater. But as a collection of Youtube clips it works very well. It's kind of a greatest hits collection of fun stuff for different movie stars to goof on.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle, @Jim Christian, @Charles Pewitt, @SonOfStrom

    Most of the Harry Potter films were written by Steve Kloves, who also wrote, and directed, The Fabulous Baker Boys, which is a good candidate for a female oriented cult classic.

  28. Somewhat related:

    Have women created any cults?

    They certainly follow cults, sometimes long after most men have left them.

    But creating cults… It seems like a stubbornly dumb thing only men would do. No offense intended to any men who might be among the readers of iSteve. Some of my best friends are cults.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @European-American

    Ayn Rand.

    Opera singers like Maria Callas.

    Aimee Semple McPherson, Madame Blavatsky.

    On the other hand, you could probably point to men doing much of the creating of these cults, like Ayn Rand's boyfriend what's his name.

    Replies: @European-American, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    , @jimmyriddle
    @European-American

    Mary Baker Eddy started Christian Science - relatively harmless as cults go, give or take the odd follower who needlessly bleeds to death.

    , @Thea
    @European-American

    Feminism

  29. This movie, and “Raising Arizona” are the two Coen Brothers movies I don’t care for at all. One aspect of Lebowski I really really didn’t care for was the gratuitous insertion of Nazis in tandem with John Goodman’s Jewish avenger-type character. Or maybe I’m just remembering that part wrong. I don’t care because I’m not watching it again.

    • Replies: @al gore rhythms
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    They weren't Nazis, they were Nihilists--they believed in Nothing.

    Of course, you may regard that as worse rather than better. Say what you want about the tenents of National Socialism; at least it's an ethos.

    , @MEH 0910
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/AllGermansAreNazis


    Walter: Nothing changes. Fucking Nazis.
    Donnie: They were Nazis, Dude?
    Walter: Well come on, Donnie! They were threatening castration! Are we gonna split hairs here? Am I wrong?
    Dude: They were nihilists, man. They kept saying they believed in nothing.
    Walter: Nihilists... Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w
  30. all of which had enjoyed some critical acclaim except The Hudsucker Proxy (which I think is hilarious but nobody else does)

    I love it too, its a gem of a film IMO all hail the Hud !!!

    have you read Gates of Eden by Joel Coen, its a must read for every Coen brothers fan

  31. @JMcG
    As notanon says, Grease. I do know one woman, a wonderful woman, who will stop to watch a little Ferris Bueller whenever it comes on.
    Maybe The Princess Bride? It is kind of de rigeur to say you like The Princess Bride though.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @fitzGetty

    I was wondering about that myself. After all, there are kissing parts:

    “They’re kissing again. Do we have to read the kissing parts?”

    But I think The Princess Bride is definitively a guy movie that makes a knowing tip of the hat to chick movies. Princess Buttercup herself is, when all is said and done, a MacGuffin.

    The heart of the movie is about male courage and dedication, males contesting against each other, bonding with each other and finding meaning in their lives.

  32. My wife says Thelma and Louise. But she has not watched it in twenty years. Princess Bride?

  33. @Neoconned
    @G

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Central_High

    Heather's is based off a weird 1970s school massacre film

    Replies: @Hodag

    A lot of Heathers referenced the band The Replacements.

  34. @notanon
    female cult films: Grease, Pride and Prejudice, Mama Mia etc

    Replies: @McSwag

    A cult classic is a film that wasn’t a huge commercial success…something you can’t say about those three films…Grease being huge and liked by me and just about everyone, male and female, in the school I went to…being only 10 years old at the time.

  35. @Mr. Blank
    Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    Replies: @McSwag, @TGGP, @whorefinder, @Percy Gryce, @Jimi, @Stan Adams, @Rotten

    “Cult” means a lack of commercial success…obscure or niche…ABBA was f**king huge.

  36. Not many Chicks would like a film such as Kiss Me Deadly or Get Carter…both Cult Classics.

  37. Is Clueless a cult film? Is it a chick film?

  38. What about horror films?

  39. @kihowi
    Of course, because it takes brains. To enjoy something as a cult classic you have to mentally step away from it. While you're watching, part of your brain is thinking about how its peculiarities contrast with regular movies or how its awfulness is so perfect that it becomes good again or how it reflects the age in which is was made. You can't just experience them just with your immediate feelings because a lot of the time they kind of suck that way.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Roderick Spode

    Enjoying a cult classic does not “take brains.” It takes a desire to demonstrate status and taste amongst one’s buddies, which is why “cult classics” are probably most popular among college-aged bros. A staple of every young American dude’s dorm room is at least one poster of a movie that’s considered a cult classic.

  40. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    For female equivalent of “cult classics” look to movies that artistic hipster girls enjoy watching in their teens and early 20s. That would be Heathers, Romy and Michelle’s High School Reunion, Secretary, Vanilla Sky, Garden State, Edward Scissorhands, Almost Famous….. all those 80s rat pack films Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles, etc.

    Some of these movies were fairly popular when they came out so maybe they aren’t technically cult classics but no one really watches them anymore aside from people who consider them cult classics.

    Raving about a cult classic is a very much a snobby pretentious young person thing. Among young people men are probably a little more insecure about looking cool therefore cult classics are more of a thing among men. I used to take pride in my taste in movies/music but past 25 I stopped caring. Some of the what I liked was actually good, some I just consumed because I thought it demonstrated status and refinement among my group…

  41. How come you never mention Raising Arizona, Steve? That’s about my favorite. Maybe you’ve got to be a redneck to appreciate it. I’m also wondering why these 2 brother/directors are so into kidnappings in their movies. Maybe it’s just the 2 movies.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I liked Raising Arizona a lot when I saw it on video around 1988. But I haven't seen it since.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Best kidnapping movie I've ever seen and, being a somewhat obscure foreign movie probably could be called a cult movie, was High and Low by Kurosawa. Well worth seeing.

    High and Low

  42. Is it cyclical?

    Past female cults:
    The Beatles/British Invasion
    Elvis
    Boy Bands
    Gone with the Wind (and maybe Birth of a Nation)
    Rudi Valentino

    Or is it that the above appealed to girls not women?

    I thought the ‘American Girl’ dolls were sort of cultish.

  43. Mean Girls is a women’s cult classic (it was also a hit at the time but) and a good movie.

    Maybe some John Hughes movie?

    Bridget Jones and the Colin firth pride and prejudice, yeah.

    I don’t think you’ll find a women’s movie that was too niche or unpopular–those just arent feminine qualities in art

  44. @The Alarmist
    You've obviously missed a number of chick cult classics, like the Bridget Jones series, Four Weddings & a Funeral, Notting Hill, ad nauseum. And all that Austen crap. If women seem less nostalgic, it's because they hold this stuff to be timeless.

    Replies: @sabril, @Tom-in-VA, @TJ hooker

    To be sure there is entertainment that is timelessly popular among women, but do they create rabid subcultures around it? Are there chick flick conventions at the Javits Center? I’ve never checked but I kinda doubt it.

    No, it seems the basic pattern is that subcultures are created by men, and then if those subcultures start gaining mainstream cache, women glom on.

    Which makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. As Robin Hanson would say, anime culture really isn’t about anime at all. What’s actually going on is men forming a faction and bonding over shared interests. If that faction rises in status and influence, it will naturally attract women.

  45. @Steve Sailer
    @G

    The Harry Potter films went over to a mostly female audience by the end. Of course, they were hugely popular at the time of release so it would be hard to call them cult classics.

    The Big Lebowski may not really be a good example of a cult classic either since it appears to be broadly popular among, say, white men age 35 to 60. It was really only overlooked for a year or two. I didn't bother seeing it when it came out, but then saw it on TV about a year later and thought it was hilarious. About the fourth time I saw it I started getting tired of it, but I get bored easily. And it holds up extremely well on Youtube clips, which is a culturally important medium today.

    For example, the most recent Coen Brothers movie "Hail, Caesar!" didn't really have much momentum as a 2 hour long movie in the theater. But as a collection of Youtube clips it works very well. It's kind of a greatest hits collection of fun stuff for different movie stars to goof on.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle, @Jim Christian, @Charles Pewitt, @SonOfStrom

    The feminist cult flick Georgia Rules with (shocker) Jane Fonda starring is full of the themes that ought to make it a big cult film for strong women. It has all the hallmarks. Covering three generations of libbers, it depicts a supposedly molesting second husband, a slutty 15 year old girl, a drunken divorced single mother and a stern, strong grandmother who saw through the demon molester all along.

  46. Women are less passionate than men. There are less Cohen sisters. Around the turn of the millennia the were probably less sisters grabbing the remote from their brother and surfing the tube.

    • Replies: @Kyle
    @Kyle

    450+29 = 479; ___ 29/479= .060543 ; 450/479 = .939457

    w= 6.0543 % m= 93.9457 %

    *circa 1999

  47. I guess everyone has something that inspires them and it’s good to get it again every coupla years or so. (or the movie is just hilarious every time, yeah, Bueller, Blues Brothers, Big Lebowski ). For me, I would not get sick of seeing Patton, Bridge on the River Kwai, and Cool Hand Luke each and every year. The Right Stuff could probably be thrown in there too.

    Here’s a good one – try watching the 4 Airport movies in a 3-day rental period. That was the deal from the video store, so you know, it was all or nothing. These are the serious ones (or at least they attempt to be), not the funny Leslie Neilson Airplane series. Man, it was a trip to see how the airport changed, especially the security area, just within the one decade. The movies went from quite believable – the first one with Dean Martin as the Captain- to “sorry, not very likely” (’77) to ridiculous to “I’m returning this one to the store now.” George Kennedy was in every single one, but, since you like this sort of thing, Steve, he didn’t want to be a “character actor” anymore for the 4th one. He must have insisted “I’m gonna be Captain of the Concorde, or I’m outta here. Good luck finding another cigar-smoking mechanic, bitches.”

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Achmed E. Newman

    George Kennedy also thought he was too good to star in Airplane! and turned down a role. He learned his lesson in time for The Naked Gun.

  48. @Kyle
    Women are less passionate than men. There are less Cohen sisters. Around the turn of the millennia the were probably less sisters grabbing the remote from their brother and surfing the tube.

    Replies: @Kyle

    450+29 = 479; ___ 29/479= .060543 ; 450/479 = .939457

    w= 6.0543 % m= 93.9457 %

    *circa 1999

  49. No child will ever smile again until Trump is gone from the White House. Has it been mandatory since November 9, 2016 to insert an assertion of the horribleness of the current moment in all cultural commentary?

    Well yes, obviously. Though it’s not a new thing, nor limited to this time. It amazes me how regularly retrospective reviews of whatever thing from the 80s have to invoke the grim, oppressive horror and never ending strife that comes with living under a president broadly popular enough to win 49 of 50 states in reelection. Interestingly, this sort of mythmaking never applies to GHWB. I guess losing reelection helps . . .

    • Replies: @Manfred Arcane
    @HEL

    It doesn't stop with the 1980s, either. Every review of anything (particularly sci-fi movies) from the 1950s-early 1960s has to refer to enforced conformity, Joe McCarthy's monstrous doings, the Civil Rights movement, and the terror of the Bomb. Every review of stuff from the 1930s era has to talk about how it reflects (or deliberately avoids reflecting in order to provide "worried audiences" with a "respite") the "gathering darkness" of the times; Hitler usually gets mentioned by the third or fourth sentence, with the Depression coming in around the same place.

  50. @The Alarmist
    You've obviously missed a number of chick cult classics, like the Bridget Jones series, Four Weddings & a Funeral, Notting Hill, ad nauseum. And all that Austen crap. If women seem less nostalgic, it's because they hold this stuff to be timeless.

    Replies: @sabril, @Tom-in-VA, @TJ hooker

    My wife and sons are big Lebowski fans, my daughter not so much. My wife and daughter, however, will watch “Love, Actually” over and over and quote lines from it all the time.

  51. I’m not sure whether it qualifies as a chick-flick cult film, but I’ve always been very fond of “Ghost World” — funny, charming, touching, with a memorably poignant ending. I’ve probably watched it a dozen times.

    P.S. I think the Coens’ “Raising Arizona” is as funny as “Lebowski,” and it has some gloriously trippy camera work.

    • Replies: @gutta percha
    @Simon

    Yeah Ghost World is great. See also Crumb, which explains the origin of a lot of the plot and aesthetic of Ghost World.

    , @James Kabala
    @Simon

    That is a good movie and a probably counts as a cult classic, but I wonder (even though the two main characters are women) whether its fanbase is mostly female or not.

  52. Although there have been famous female critics in the US, don’t forget that cinephilia & erudite writing about film is a male thing (Eisenstein, Bresson, Rosenbaum, ..). So, movie addiction is a mostly male trait/passion, like, for instance, science fiction.

    Women, as a rule- I think- are not so moved by any visual art (or entertainment). Just compare females in literature to those in painting & film making. Perhaps something to do with differences in brain?

    As for “cult classics”, I’m here with women: I find virtually all “cult films” over-rated (not bad, just overrated): Casablanca, Citizen Kane (Bergman was right), The Maltese Falcon, The Big Lebowski,.. .
    Also, females tend to indulge in soapy emotions. Most movies worth seeing don’t fall into that category. And many US females tend to uncritically accept 3rd rate blabber on evil white males, hence the enormous popularity (among female audience) of dull & pontificating “To Kill a Mockingbird” (both a novel & a movie).

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    In her tastes in movies, Pauline Kael was sort of a guys' gal out of a Howard Hawks film.

    Replies: @Whoever

  53. Women tend to be more socially conformist than men. Cult classics, by definition, are works that aren’t widely appreciated by the mainstream. Enjoying them is a bit of a social risk. Dropping an Office Space reference in the middle of a dinner party will either be met with quizical stares or hearty guffaws. Mentioning the last episode of The Voice isn’t going to make strangers feel a strong instant connection. But it’s not going to fall flat and make you look like a weirdo.

    Women tend not to do this for the same reason they tend not to found startups, use hard drugs, hold radical political opinions, or engage in extreme sports. There’s strong evolutionary reasons for why males tend to be risk-loving.

    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @sabril
    @Doug

    Yes, I made a similar point in my comments. When people look at startups, subcultures, musical trends, and so forth, they tend to focus on the ones that have become well known, successful, at least somewhat accepted, etc.

    If we paid more attention to the failed startups; the movies that never became cult classics because only a few scattered people appreciated them, never achieving critical mass; etc, then we get a more accurate and complete picture of what's going on.

  54. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    Thelma & Louise… comes to mind. But this is likely due to lesbians.

    Usually, it’s cheesy romances like ‘Dirty Dancing’ or ‘Ghost’ that are cultish. Women watch them knowing it’s camp. They like to ogle some hunk like Patrick Swayze with their friends, and they know all the dialogue like gays would know Rocky Horror’s

  55. Hey Steve,

    This is off topic, but, do you think, this year, Troy Apke will become the first white cornerback in sixteen years?

  56. Cult? Is it like the Supreme Court’s definition of pornography?

    Astonishing nobody has mentioned the ultimate midnight movie, Rocky Horror Picture Show. Though it’s probably less cultish when your prime fans are more inspired by the early bird special at Denny’s.

    Princess Bride is eminently quotable. As is Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or Office Space. To me, The Big Lebowski, is more visual. Granted, there are some quotable lines. And quotability is not the key feature of a cult movie. It’s a garnish.

    I’ll also note that the audiences for Rocky Horror were typically 50/50 men and women and mostly couples.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Busby

    Sure, Rocky Horror, you don't have to be gay ... but it probably helps.

    (Gay, and a good shot with a water gun.)

    , @danand
    @Busby

    “I’ll also note that the audiences for Rocky Horror were typically 50/50 men and women and mostly couples.”

    Busby, yes I would agree that was ultimate late night date movie 35 years ago; the story beginning with a couple out on a late night. Both genders would often arrive at the theater costumed up and acting-playing out thier roles in the theater as the movie ran. The first of this particular behavior?

  57. @Mr. Blank
    Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    Replies: @McSwag, @TGGP, @whorefinder, @Percy Gryce, @Jimi, @Stan Adams, @Rotten

    Pride and Prejudice was popular when it was initially published, so it seems odd to deem it “cult literature”.

    • Agree: Highlander
    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @TGGP

    Pride and Prejudice is helped because it's made into a well-made movie every ten years.

    Plus, like most female movies, the theme of Pride and Prejudice's film adaptations is that a free-spirited young woman helps a repressed, alpha male open up his feelz for her. That's the same theme as 50 Shades of Gray and Pretty Woman and any female-centered romantic movie.

    Few people these days realize that Pride and Prejudice was written as a half-satire of the romantic novels of Austen's day. Austen was a very formal kind of woman who disapproved of impropriety; for example, she was not above criticizing the heir to the throne for his debaucherous behavior. But nowadays we have this image that Austen as all about breaking propriety and free spiritedness, a vie Austen would have found scandalous.

    In short: if you're a fiction writer, don't write in a sarcastic tone. Future generations might not be smart enough (or willing) to note your tone. Satire swims well in the milieu of its times, but doesn't transfer well into future oceans.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Intelligent Dasein

  58. @Mr. Blank
    Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    Replies: @McSwag, @TGGP, @whorefinder, @Percy Gryce, @Jimi, @Stan Adams, @Rotten

    But again, Steve is right: Grease developed a following because of gay men. Musical + John Travolta + transgressive sex + hints of rough trade(Travolta/leather jackets/grease monkeys)= gay following.

  59. In general, are women less nostalgic than men?

    I vaguely remember reading a popularized account of men’s versus women’s recollections of past lovers. The take away was that men are much more likely to remember past romances and women are much more likely not only to forget them but to bury them beyond point of recovery. As I remember, the researchers suggested this might be an aspect of the two sex’s very different reproductive strategies. Women do not have time to tarry over might-have-been fathers of their children. They need to crank out babies in the short time they have between menarche and menopause. Mooning over lost loves wastes time.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    With one exception---the alpha widows. If a woman is involved with, sleeps with, or dates a man she views as extremely high status, she will hold onto to that memory years down the line and never let it go. Usually, that results in her inability to stay with any other lesser male afterwards, meaning she'll likely be alone. This is doubly true if the girl is less than super attractive, because she'll have very little chance of getting any other alpha to notice her.

    Monica Lewinsky is a very good example. She was a fat Jewish unremarkable chick who got to suck the handsome younger President's little bubba---and got world famous for it.. There was no coming back after that. It's unsurprising she's remained single since then; she probably fantasizes that Bill someday will come back to her, all these years later.

    Music groupies tend to be like that as well.

    Replies: @Lugash

  60. @Doug
    Women tend to be more socially conformist than men. Cult classics, by definition, are works that aren't widely appreciated by the mainstream. Enjoying them is a bit of a social risk. Dropping an Office Space reference in the middle of a dinner party will either be met with quizical stares or hearty guffaws. Mentioning the last episode of The Voice isn't going to make strangers feel a strong instant connection. But it's not going to fall flat and make you look like a weirdo.

    Women tend not to do this for the same reason they tend not to found startups, use hard drugs, hold radical political opinions, or engage in extreme sports. There's strong evolutionary reasons for why males tend to be risk-loving.

    Replies: @sabril

    Yes, I made a similar point in my comments. When people look at startups, subcultures, musical trends, and so forth, they tend to focus on the ones that have become well known, successful, at least somewhat accepted, etc.

    If we paid more attention to the failed startups; the movies that never became cult classics because only a few scattered people appreciated them, never achieving critical mass; etc, then we get a more accurate and complete picture of what’s going on.

  61. Women tend to follow the same male stars around their entire career. If a woman gets a jonesing for Male Star X when she’s 20 you can bet she’ll watch his stuff hen she’s 30, 40, 50, and beyond. That;s the kind of nostalgia they like.

    I knew a girl around 20 who got a massive crush on Richard Gere due to Pretty Woman. Fast forward to 40 and she still will see anything he’s in (like Romy and Michelle were). Younger chicks are like that with Zac Effron or that Harry Potter kid or what have you.

    It seems once a woman gets hit with a “star gaze” on a male celebrity they’re hooked for life, unless they meet said male celeb IRL and spend time with him and see he’s not one of his roles. Hugh Grant in Music and Lyrics illustrated this well: he plays a washed up 80’s pop star who goes on nostalgia tours so he can sleep with the same female fans who were screaming in his audience at 18 but had turned 35 or 45 and, yet, still liked his old ass in leather pants. Then he starts hanging out with one of the groupies and she gets over him while her sister (Drew Barrymore) ends up falling in love with him

    What gets a lot of women crazy is how quickly a girl can go from “It” girl to forgettable for men. It gets women angry because they hang onto their male crushes as they age. For example, 10 years ago Megan Fox was the hottest number in America with legions of male admirers. Nowadays she couldn’t sell a sitcom, even if it was written by Mike Judge and Seth MacFarlane and is reduced to playing MILFy-but-unbilled roles in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies.

    Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.

    Certain films are nostalgic for women, but they either involve early childhood memories (e.g. Wizard of Oz) or hit movies everyone saw (9 1/2 weeks, The Way We Were). Women are much more natural at following the pack on movies in general, but much more cult like in following an individual male star’s career, groupie-like following an alpha male.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    @whorefinder


    Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.
     
    Our First Lady's the exception that proves the rule; you won't find many women who look that stunning* at 47, or any age.

    Ironically, her husband's the other exception; he aged decently until around the time he hit 60 in 2006, but he has not fared well at all since then.

    Anyway, if Stormy Daniels' got Melania needing a shoulder to cry on, she's welcome any time.

    *Stunning in the Alexandra Daddario (NSFW - top half nudity - link) sense, not the Caitlyn Jenner sense.

    Replies: @Rosie, @Autochthon, @ScarletNumber

    , @ScarletNumber
    @whorefinder


    Women tend to follow the same male stars around their entire career.
     
    This is why Marge Simpson's sisters love MacGyver. They don't even refer to the poor guy by name.
  62. @The Alarmist
    You've obviously missed a number of chick cult classics, like the Bridget Jones series, Four Weddings & a Funeral, Notting Hill, ad nauseum. And all that Austen crap. If women seem less nostalgic, it's because they hold this stuff to be timeless.

    Replies: @sabril, @Tom-in-VA, @TJ hooker

    I think we need to distinguish between a “chick flick” (a movie whose popularity is skewed heavily to women) and “female cult classic” (a movie only hugely popular to small-ish subset of women??? or only popular latter). I would says most these were popular female films. Add Dirty Dancing to that list.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @TJ hooker

    "I think we need to distinguish between a “chick flick” (a movie whose popularity is skewed heavily to women) and “female cult classic” (a movie only hugely popular to small-ish subset of women??? or only popular later)."

    Right. Not as many women as men care enough to put a lot of effort into arguing years later that Everybody Was Wrong About Movie X When It First Came Out.

  63. @TGGP
    @Mr. Blank

    Pride and Prejudice was popular when it was initially published, so it seems odd to deem it "cult literature".

    Replies: @whorefinder

    Pride and Prejudice is helped because it’s made into a well-made movie every ten years.

    Plus, like most female movies, the theme of Pride and Prejudice‘s film adaptations is that a free-spirited young woman helps a repressed, alpha male open up his feelz for her. That’s the same theme as 50 Shades of Gray and Pretty Woman and any female-centered romantic movie.

    Few people these days realize that Pride and Prejudice was written as a half-satire of the romantic novels of Austen’s day. Austen was a very formal kind of woman who disapproved of impropriety; for example, she was not above criticizing the heir to the throne for his debaucherous behavior. But nowadays we have this image that Austen as all about breaking propriety and free spiritedness, a vie Austen would have found scandalous.

    In short: if you’re a fiction writer, don’t write in a sarcastic tone. Future generations might not be smart enough (or willing) to note your tone. Satire swims well in the milieu of its times, but doesn’t transfer well into future oceans.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    "Satire swims well in the milieu of its times, but doesn’t transfer well into future oceans."

    And that's why nobody reads Don Quixote anymore. Or Gulliver's Travels. Or Jane Austen.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    , @Intelligent Dasein
    @whorefinder


    But nowadays we have this image that Austen as all about breaking propriety and free spiritedness, a vie Austen would have found scandalous.
     
    I don't know where anybody got that from. I can't read Jane Austen without taking her completely seriously. There is a real grayness to her novels, a darkness, a sort of enveloping fog that completely blocks any bright ray of bathos from penetrating through. She gives the impression that England is vast; both spatial and social distances are immense and imposing. The bustling city of London---tellingly referred to simply as "town" by her aristocratic characters---is something these country gentlemen look upon with incomprehension and contempt. The regard their visits to "town" as a sort of necessary evil and are always anxious to return to their freedoms and privileges in the country. This world is shrouded in a permanent Hiraethwhich breathes the overcast and gloom of the English skies, the towering majesty of her estates, the felt pulse of settled social customs. This is what I love about her.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  64. Almost every line of the Big Lebowski is quotable

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @(((They))) Live

    Yeah, well...that's just your opinion, man.

  65. Idiocracy is similarly a cult film that is liked by an overwhelmingly male demographic.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @hamont

    I played a tiny role in helping Idiocracy survive its homicidal release by the studio.

    Replies: @European-American

    , @The preferred nomenclature is...
    @hamont

    Yes.

    And King of the Hill. I know it is not a movie. Still it was awesome.

  66. My favorite feminine cult classic off the top of my head is Teen Witch; it has enough of a following to be famous, but you still feel like you’re part of a fun secret club for knowing about it. Not a favorite of mine, but it was women who turned Dirty Dancing into a massive and enduring success. It was a low budget movie by a new studio with a small release and so-so reviews, so it arguably deserves the cult label.

    It’s unclear what counts as a cult classic; Wikipedia’s list runs the gamut from b movies and little known foreign films, to critical darlings that got a lot of press, major award winners, and box office hits. But I’ve always thought of cult classics as obscure but beloved movies, or if major releases, weird movies that managed to develop a large following. So with the caveat that the parameters we’re talking about are unclear, I disagree with Steve. Women can get just as hooked on small or off-kilter movies they discover. (And often their taste overlaps with men’s. Tons of examples, including the aforementioned Princess Bride.)

  67. Just asked the wife “What comes to mind when you hear the words cult classic?”
    Immediately: “A movie?” (yes, increasing pitch, so not completely sure)
    “What would be an example?”
    Long pause. “Wayne’s World?”
    Long pause (getting my laughing under control).
    “What would be a woman’s cult classic?”
    Another long pause. “You’ve Got Mail”
    Understandable. It’s the only movie she watches regularly (annually).
    “I was thinking more like “St. Elmo’s Fire”
    “Oh yeah, those brat pack movies, you’re right, those would be better.”

    So yeah, score one for Steve, woman probably don’t grok “Cult Classic” as deeply as men.

    Personally I think there actually might be a singular example of the entire phenomenon. A movie that when released caused so much ruckus that the owners (producers) actually attempted to withdraw it. Despite that it still earned out and you can buy a blu-ray of it today. 1979’s The Warriors. A movie that most women have never seen and many have never heard of.

    St. Elmo’s Fire + cult: 100k
    Sixteen Candles + cult: 316k

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @cthoms

    "The Warriors," an ultra-stylized gang movie, is inspired by Xenophon's Anabasis, right?

    It made $22 million at the box office. For a 1979 release, that's pretty good, so it wasn't overlooked initially.

    Probably having some High Culture links, like The Warriors has (Xenophon was Socrates' middle-brow protege), helps male cult movies.

    Replies: @Autochthon

    , @anonymous
    @cthoms

    Would "Casablanca" qualify as a cult classic? Just wondering.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  68. @Busby
    Cult? Is it like the Supreme Court's definition of pornography?

    Astonishing nobody has mentioned the ultimate midnight movie, Rocky Horror Picture Show. Though it's probably less cultish when your prime fans are more inspired by the early bird special at Denny's.

    Princess Bride is eminently quotable. As is Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or Office Space. To me, The Big Lebowski, is more visual. Granted, there are some quotable lines. And quotability is not the key feature of a cult movie. It's a garnish.

    I'll also note that the audiences for Rocky Horror were typically 50/50 men and women and mostly couples.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @danand

    Sure, Rocky Horror, you don’t have to be gay … but it probably helps.

    (Gay, and a good shot with a water gun.)

  69. A more important indicator of a cult classic than its obscurity is that the film is endlessly re-watchable.

    Quentin Tarantino remarked once in an interview that “Rio Bravo” is a “buddy movie” and that part of the fun (for him) of watching it over and over again is that he “hangs out” with Ricky Nelson, Dean Martin, Walter Brennan each time he watches it.

    This is partly why Lebowski is so popular among guys–you are hanging out with the Dude and his friends each time you see it.

    I’ve known girls who love the movie too, but they were all potheads.

  70. Isn’t Thelma & Louise a female cult flick? Perhaps I don’t ‘get’ the distinction between a chick flick and a female cult flick…

  71. Love Actually is bit of a cult classic with modern middle class White women. Lots of men are bad women good fantasy; sensitive soy boy pining hopelessly for friend’s wife , male model hunk crazy about oppressed average looking older woman but romance ruined by her vicious psychotic brother, dowdy housewives done wrong by nasty overbearing husband who falls for office minx, plump secretaries wooed by handsome Prime Minister, evil Clinton/Bush hybrid US President, it just goes on and on. Basically, women’s version of pron.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @AnotherGuessModel
    @Alfa158

    It's a very charming and cohesive ensemble movie, and it switches between different moods seamlessly, from drama to romantic comedy to sex farce. That's very hard to get right, and have a wide appeal. Your synopsis is amusingly shallow, for example:


    male model hunk crazy about oppressed average looking older woman but romance ruined by her vicious psychotic brother
     
    That was a very moving subplot where the director transitioned from what seemed like a wish-fulfillment movie romance into a heartrending meditation on familial love and self-sacrifice.

    But again, not really a cult classic. It was a mainstream success and its popularity has endured.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @James Kabala

  72. OT

    Creepy liberal detaches himself from The Narrative, goes rustic, becomes healthy.

    NYT unwittingly reports it as human interest self-sacrifice story.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/style/the-man-who-knew-too-little.html

    [or at http://archive.is/NqemG if you don’t patronize the Times.]

    My personal favorite line:

    “I am bored, … But it’s not bugging me.”

    Perhaps the best ever one sentence summation of being a rural midwesterner.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Almost Missouri

    The article is one long whine by the reporter that their propaganda didn't work on this guy. I'm surprised that the reporter even wrote it, unless he's getting sick of the stuff that his own side is peddling.

  73. @Steve Sailer
    @G

    The Harry Potter films went over to a mostly female audience by the end. Of course, they were hugely popular at the time of release so it would be hard to call them cult classics.

    The Big Lebowski may not really be a good example of a cult classic either since it appears to be broadly popular among, say, white men age 35 to 60. It was really only overlooked for a year or two. I didn't bother seeing it when it came out, but then saw it on TV about a year later and thought it was hilarious. About the fourth time I saw it I started getting tired of it, but I get bored easily. And it holds up extremely well on Youtube clips, which is a culturally important medium today.

    For example, the most recent Coen Brothers movie "Hail, Caesar!" didn't really have much momentum as a 2 hour long movie in the theater. But as a collection of Youtube clips it works very well. It's kind of a greatest hits collection of fun stuff for different movie stars to goof on.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle, @Jim Christian, @Charles Pewitt, @SonOfStrom

    OFF TOPIC, BUT WOMEN INVOLVED

    A young American woman named Brittany Pettibone has been detained and sent to a prison in the United Kingdom for alleged political crimes. The political crime was she was going to meet with a British political activist and speak at the famous speaker’s corner at Hyde Park.

    Brittany Pettibone is a Trump supporter who is pro-sovereignty and pro-free speech. She is a nice young lady, who even has the guts to say she doesn’t support Trump’s negotiating tactic of offering amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. Pettibone has covered many of the free speech events that the Antifa thugs have attacked, including at least one of the Battles of Berkeley.

    Katie Hopkins is a solid Brit woman who has sent out this Tweet about Pettibone’s political detention in the United Kingdom:

    https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/972789498747805696

    Brittany Pettibone at one of the Battles of Berkeley:

  74. @Busby
    Cult? Is it like the Supreme Court's definition of pornography?

    Astonishing nobody has mentioned the ultimate midnight movie, Rocky Horror Picture Show. Though it's probably less cultish when your prime fans are more inspired by the early bird special at Denny's.

    Princess Bride is eminently quotable. As is Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or Office Space. To me, The Big Lebowski, is more visual. Granted, there are some quotable lines. And quotability is not the key feature of a cult movie. It's a garnish.

    I'll also note that the audiences for Rocky Horror were typically 50/50 men and women and mostly couples.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @danand

    “I’ll also note that the audiences for Rocky Horror were typically 50/50 men and women and mostly couples.”

    Busby, yes I would agree that was ultimate late night date movie 35 years ago; the story beginning with a couple out on a late night. Both genders would often arrive at the theater costumed up and acting-playing out thier roles in the theater as the movie ran. The first of this particular behavior?

  75. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Lebowski” is the best of the Coen Brothers work that I have seen. Great dialogue, notwithstanding the endless F-bombs. And Jeff Bridges was born to play “Little” Lebowski, unlike the Coens “True Grit” remake where he was basically playing the role of John Wayne Playing The Role of Rooster Cogburn. Did not know that “Lebowski” was something of back handed tribute to “The Big Sleep”. The problem I find with the Coens, who are otherwise great movie makers, is that at times they can be a bit–shall I say “obscure?”

  76. I was tempted to mention Thelma and Louise, which made 45 million, but that’s almost too much box office for a “cult movie,” female or otherwise. As a pop culture reference point, though, it has only gotten more popular over the years.

    But then I remember that me and my film school buddies (all dudes) liked the movie a lot more than my mom, sister, girlfriends, wife ever did. Probably because it’s not really a movie about women, it’s a movie about how great Ridley Scott is at wide shots and natural lighting.

    OT:

    If you have Netflix, iSteve denizens, I recommend checking out a new show imported from Britain, Nightmare Tenants, Slum Landlords. It’s reality TV about the housing crisis in and around London, and it’s about what you’d expect. I’m sure it will be bowdlerized at some point, like Cops.

  77. Sleepless in Seattle… You’ve Got Mail

  78. @Almost Missouri
    OT

    Creepy liberal detaches himself from The Narrative, goes rustic, becomes healthy.

    NYT unwittingly reports it as human interest self-sacrifice story.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/style/the-man-who-knew-too-little.html

    [or at http://archive.is/NqemG if you don't patronize the Times.]

    My personal favorite line:


    “I am bored, ... But it’s not bugging me.”
     
    Perhaps the best ever one sentence summation of being a rural midwesterner.

    Replies: @Anon

    The article is one long whine by the reporter that their propaganda didn’t work on this guy. I’m surprised that the reporter even wrote it, unless he’s getting sick of the stuff that his own side is peddling.

  79. TCM once got their mitts on a copy of the original cut of The Big Sleep, and showed it back-to-back with the release cut. What actually happened was that the studio execs saw the first cut and said “GIVE US MORE BOGEY AND BACALL!1!!eleventy!!!”, so they recut, putting every possible scene of them in and cut other stuff willy-nilly, including plot points, inadvertently changing noir forever.

  80. I can’t speak for all women, but my taste in movies is considered by most people to be on the bizarre side, for both men and women. I do like cult movies with a touch of sweetness such as, Fargo, What’s Eating Gilbert Grape, Edward Scissorhands, Northfork, Big Bad Love, Waterboy, Wilder Napalm and Napoleon Dynamite. Donnie Darko is absolutely perfect and portrays Republicans as great parents and good people.

    I can quote most of the dialogue to, Jaws, by heart, ditto with, Deliverance.

    I also love all Clint Eastwood’s Westerns and Spaghetti Westerns. All Charles Bronson movies, especially Red Sun. I love quirky dark Australian movies, like Sweetie. I love violent nihilistic movies, like Mad Max, Road Warrior, the Proposition, Wolf Creek, Henry, Portrait of a Serial killer, Natural Born Killers, Sexy Beast. I love all Coen Brothers, Ridley Scott, Michael Mann, Wes Anderson, Jim Jarmusch and Peter Jackson movies. Alien, Aliens, Terminators, 1 & 2. The Highlander. Near Dark. Stake Land.

    Japanese movies, Tampopo, Tetsuo, most samurai and Yakuza films, and all Kurasawa films. Korean movies have been especially good in the last 20 years, very, very dark, Mother, for example. I love films about cannibals, Parents, Trouble Every Day, Ravenous, The Hills Have Eyes.

    In a class by itself is my all time favorite movie, Once Were Warriors. Terrible, beautiful movie, people hate me for recommending it to them.

    I love all the older David Lean films, Oliver Twist, Great Expectations, with Guy Greene cinematography are fantastic.

    Here is a crazy, fantastic, silly fight scene from my favorite Tsui Hark martial arts film, the Blade,

    I thought the movie, Mongol, was great, it also has a wonderful sound track. Here is a song from the movie by the Mongolian band, Altan Ulrag,

    Here, in the same vein, as Mongol, is the spectacular Russian movie, the Horde, free on YouTube,

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @Michelle

    Someone once asked me what I did the previous evening. I said in all seriousness, "My husband and I had such a romantic night. First we had dinner, then we watched 'Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer.'"

    You have some good movies on your list. If you like dark, have you seen "Dogtooth" or "Magical Girl"? Another good one is "Goddess of Earth". I agree that the Koreans make some wonderful movies. I recommend "Epitaph" (gorgeous cinematography), "Memories of Murder", "The Crescent Moon" and "Poetry".

    ETA: I really hated "Once Were Warriors".

    Replies: @Michelle

  81. @JMcG
    As notanon says, Grease. I do know one woman, a wonderful woman, who will stop to watch a little Ferris Bueller whenever it comes on.
    Maybe The Princess Bride? It is kind of de rigeur to say you like The Princess Bride though.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster, @fitzGetty

    … yes, yes — dig that Mies’y house in Ferris Bueller, steel & glass among the leaves …

  82. @snorlax

    Are Women Less Cult Classic-Oriented Than Men? ... In general, are women less nostalgic than men?
     
    Nah, women just like different things than men do.

    Go to any 80's night, 60's night or 70's night. Guys show up in street clothes, perhaps wearing a period-correct band t-shirt at the most. The women have clearly spent days assembling perfectly spot-on outfits, hair, shoes and accessories.

    Can you differentiate between Colonial Style, Regency Style and Second Empire Style antiques? Neither can I, but I bet Mrs. Sailer can!

    Who watches all those Masterpiece Theatre costume dramas and keeps Mr. Darcy and Heathcliff pinned to the top of the bestseller charts for 200 years?

    If a woman's into fashion, she can talk your ear off about so-and-so's groundbreaking 1991 collection, Liz Taylor's outfit at the '53 Oscars, everything Audrey Hepburn ever wore in a film, and so on. Women who enjoy cooking impress each other with tales of when they decided on a whim to spend the day making Julia Child's boeuf bourguignon.

    My mom and her friends (late Boomer/early Gen X) still follow Bruce Springsteen and Jon Bon Jovi just as assiduously as they did as teenyboppers. Non-anecdotally, remember that article you posted a few days back about favorite songs? Women's favorite songs were, on average, released when they were 12 years old, compared with 14 for men.

    Back to anecdotes, Netflix's 80's nostalgia-fest Stranger Things achieved the nearest to 50-50 gender parity in terms of interest and enthusiasm of any sci-fi work I can remember.

    I had never heard of a Romy and Michele cult, but now I see a few articles referring to it as a cult classic. Searching on Google for:

    “Romy and Michele’s High School Reunion” cult

    gives 29,000 hits, while a similar search for the Coen Brothers movie brings up 450,000 hits, so the guy movie is about 16x as cultish as the girl movie.
     
    Admittedly a very unscientific exercise (and when does a film become too popular to be a cult film?), but https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22love%20actually%22%20cult

    Replies: @Tyrion 2

    Back to anecdotes, Netflix’s 80′s nostalgia-fest Stranger Things achieved the nearest to 50-50 gender parity in terms of interest and enthusiasm of any sci-fi work I can remember.

    Normally sci-fi is a male genre. Stranger Things is a childrens’ adventure story with added emotions. Hence it was more popular with women despite being about little gang of boys a la Stand By Me. Any man who doesn’t pike Stand By Me has issues but it barely registers with women who don’t have sons.

    My wife and I both liked it, but I don’t recognise it as actual sci-fi. That element merely comes from its style being a pastiche of various efforts from the 80s. I liked the music plus the Stand By Me stuff and my wife liked the kids’ adventure story.

    • Replies: @AnotherGuessModel
    @Tyrion 2


    Any man who doesn’t pike Stand By Me has issues but it barely registers with women who don’t have sons.
     
    What are you talking about? That movie has mass appeal, young, old, male, female. I was too young to watch it in theaters when it came out, but it was a staple VCR movie with friends and frequently on TV. The song it was named after was one of the few oldies on our mixtapes. And I would bet that teenage girls contributed to making it a sleeper hit in the summer of '86. Around 10 years later, I clearly remember Hollywood tried to ride on that film's strong resonance with women and teenage girls by heavily marketing Now and Then as a sort of female version. (Alas, it was nowhere near as good.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Tyrion 2

  83. In my youth, every girl saw Officer and a Gentlemen fifty times. The girls I was dating at the time had me see it with her. The theater was an estrogen bath.

    Pretty Woman probably counts as a cult classic for women. That’s another I recall every woman I knew talking about a lot.

    Rocky Horror was more a girl thing than a straight male thing.

    My guess is “cult classics” work for men because men are more inclined to nostalgia. Oldies radio skews male, while older women will listen to current pop stations much more than older men.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @The Z Blog

    "Pretty Woman probably counts as a cult classic for women."

    Romy and Michelle have watched it 36 times:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7geRef2uG0

  84. On average, I don’t think women have the same appreciation for irony and subtle quirk that men do. A woman sees Lebowski and would probably think “well this is stupid”. I don’t know how to explain a joke like “nice marmot” or why it’s funny but there’s just something inherently fever-dream ridiculous about it that makes me laugh. I’d be curious to see how men and women differ with regards to the type of humor they enjoy. For example, I get the feeling that it’s men who appreciate movies like Troll 2 and The Room, movies that were made in all seriousness but are hilarious because they are so poorly made.

    • Replies: @Senator Brundlefly
    @Senator Brundlefly

    Thinking about it more, I think absurdism skews towards men because our minds are attuned toward figuring out how systems work and absurdists present cases where things aren't working so it's mentally stimulating. Women meanwhile are repulsed by weird. Whereas Lebowski is a symbol of a bufoon lost in a postmodern world to men, to women he's a sexual market reject that is unpleasant to watch.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Senator Brundlefly


    For example, I get the feeling that it’s men who appreciate movies like Troll 2 and The Room, movies that were made in all seriousness but are hilarious because they are so poorly made.
     
    You got that right.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w59fZNDTMAg
  85. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    Lots of movies are cult popular with girls. Favourites at all girls boarding schools in the 2000s include quite revealing movies such as: Empire Records, The Lost Boys and, number one for teenage girls, Girl Interrupted – a story of extreme self-indulgent borderline emotionalism – paging Whiskey!

  86. For me a classic movie is one I enjoy seeing at any random time. If Kurosawa’s “Seven Samurai” was on this afternoon, I would watch it, same with Fellini’s “La Strada”, Hitchcock’s “Rear Window” and more recently Ritchie’s “Snatch” ( the movie, not his ex-wife’s naughty bits.) There are lots of movies that critics have proclaimed instant classics, worthy of cult devotion, that I don’t care for,those include almost all of Tarantino’s works.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Buffalo Joe

    Snatch is hilarious. Brad Pitt is astonishing.

  87. @Senator Brundlefly
    On average, I don't think women have the same appreciation for irony and subtle quirk that men do. A woman sees Lebowski and would probably think "well this is stupid". I don't know how to explain a joke like "nice marmot" or why it's funny but there's just something inherently fever-dream ridiculous about it that makes me laugh. I'd be curious to see how men and women differ with regards to the type of humor they enjoy. For example, I get the feeling that it's men who appreciate movies like Troll 2 and The Room, movies that were made in all seriousness but are hilarious because they are so poorly made.

    Replies: @Senator Brundlefly, @Bardon Kaldian

    Thinking about it more, I think absurdism skews towards men because our minds are attuned toward figuring out how systems work and absurdists present cases where things aren’t working so it’s mentally stimulating. Women meanwhile are repulsed by weird. Whereas Lebowski is a symbol of a bufoon lost in a postmodern world to men, to women he’s a sexual market reject that is unpleasant to watch.

  88. @Steve Sailer
    @G

    The Harry Potter films went over to a mostly female audience by the end. Of course, they were hugely popular at the time of release so it would be hard to call them cult classics.

    The Big Lebowski may not really be a good example of a cult classic either since it appears to be broadly popular among, say, white men age 35 to 60. It was really only overlooked for a year or two. I didn't bother seeing it when it came out, but then saw it on TV about a year later and thought it was hilarious. About the fourth time I saw it I started getting tired of it, but I get bored easily. And it holds up extremely well on Youtube clips, which is a culturally important medium today.

    For example, the most recent Coen Brothers movie "Hail, Caesar!" didn't really have much momentum as a 2 hour long movie in the theater. But as a collection of Youtube clips it works very well. It's kind of a greatest hits collection of fun stuff for different movie stars to goof on.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle, @Jim Christian, @Charles Pewitt, @SonOfStrom

    Case in point (and on point):

  89. I’ve seen Grease and Beaches on tv – which was what my husband was watching. They were okay, but I never wanted to watch them again. I never saw Romy and Michelle or Mean Girls or any of the Bridget Jones movies. I saw the Harry Potter movies when my younger kid read the books and I bought him the DVDs. I saw Pride and Prejudice once and found it okay, although I have read the book several times. I haven’t been to the movie theatre literally in years.

    Yeah, I realize I’m hardly typical and find most women annoying emoting airheads – yet my “best friends” have always been women and I’m into babies more than I am into debating political and cultural issues. The only movies I have knowingly chosen to watch more than once, at least that I can think of right now, are Franco Zeffirelli’s 1968 Romeo and Juliet (saw in the theatre as a child and later bought the video) and Blast from the Past (saw in the dollar theatre right after I confirmed I was expecting my 2nd son and then bought the video).

    Obviously I’m quite nostalgic – but for the glories of Western Civilization and pre-pozzed America.

    • Replies: @European-American
    @3g4me

    I’ll second Blast from the Past as one of my favorite cult movies. I guess it’s a bit reactionary, but really it’s more wistful than reactionary.

    I’m not sure why it has so-so reviews. I think it’s perfect. But I’ll admit I’m generally a sucker for chick flicks, oddly enough. Perhaps because they tend to be fairly conservative. Or because I’m a sentimental idiot.

    Replies: @3g4me

  90. The first time I saw The Big Lebowski was about a year after it came out, at a party, and we turned it off about five minutes in after the F-bomb-laden opening (“obviously, you’re not a golfer”) sequence.

    Then a couple years later I saw it about midnight on cable, and even edited for tv I thought it was the funniest movie I had ever seen (interestingly, I had roughly the same experience with the Bevis and Butthead movie).

  91. @Mr. Blank
    Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    Replies: @McSwag, @TGGP, @whorefinder, @Percy Gryce, @Jimi, @Stan Adams, @Rotten

    Fried Green Tomatoes, Steel Magnolias?

    • Replies: @ia
    @Percy Gryce

    Fried Green Tomatoes gets 2,670,000 results on Google. Steel Magnolias, 2,800,000.

  92. Okay, I forgot one. I laughed hysterically at Hot Fuzz and watched it on tv since seeing it at the theatre.

  93. In general, are women less nostalgic than men?

    Yes. Unequivocally, I would say. Women tend to adapt better than men do to changing times, so they have less need of nostalgia.

    • Agree: Autochthon
  94. Metallica adopted the sequence where Bridges/Jeffrey Lebowski recounts his time as their roadie, calling them assholes. They play the snippet during most of their concerts. Also has cameos by Flea and Aimee Mann, so different white people rock music strains took a 2nd look and thought it was a fun movie. In a culture that caters to teens and minorities, once again, the Coens market is white people with money. John Turturro/Jesus is the only “character of color”, and he’s Italian, and his supposed child molestation is played for laughs.

  95. The Big Lebowski is a good film that is still a good film after several viewings.

  96. This was the Coen Brothers’ seventh movie since Blood Simple in 1985, all of which had enjoyed some critical acclaim except The Hudsucker Proxy (which I think is hilarious but nobody else does).

    I agree about The Hudsucker Proxy. I thought it was pretty funny. And I liked all the extras too: the 1950s setting, Jennifer Jason Leigh’s affected voice (which sounded like a mix of Barbara Bel Geddes and Katherine Hepburn), the excellent score by Carter Burwell and Aram Khachaturian, Paul Newman’s patented crotchety old-guy scenery-chewing, and the running gag with the circle: you know, for kids!

  97. I also liked The Hudsucker Proxy and my wife and I saw The Big Lebowski early in its initial release and thought it was better than Fargo and funnier than Raising Arizona. An instant classic to us. But I recommended it to a coworker who I thought would appreciate it, and he hated it.

    We never participated in any of the cult classic aspects of TBL, but we did see it again in the theater a couple of years ago at a local luxoplex’s classic movie night. First time we had seen it since 1998. We both felt that it held up very well and really enjoyed it. It’s in my top three Coen Brothers movies: Blood Simple and Miller’s Crossing are the other two.

  98. @Mr. Blank
    Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    Replies: @McSwag, @TGGP, @whorefinder, @Percy Gryce, @Jimi, @Stan Adams, @Rotten

    Women cult classics:

    Eat Pray Love;
    How Stella Got Her Groove Back;
    Thelma and Louise;
    The Princess Bride;
    Clueless;
    When Harry Met Sally
    Heathers

  99. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN and PRETTY WOMAN.

  100. Oh, and THELMA AND LOUISE.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    @Lugash

    That’s one of the two ways that a female buddy film is possible; losers or lesbians.

    Two normal heterosexual females will always wind up competing, not being buddies.

  101. Fried Green Tomatoes, Steel Magnolias?

    You could throw Titanic in there as well. These movies definitely exert an ongoing appeal upon women; but once again, they also were and are quite popular, which precludes them from being subsumed under the definition of cult classics.

    There is a deep consonance between “woman” on one hand and “popular,” “crowd,” and “mass” on the other hand. The tastes of each will always be very nearly identical. The kinds of things that women are drawn to will not be esoteric, because they either will not see the value in them or will, by the very act of embracing them, make them popular.

  102. OT: LA Times puff-piece/sob-story on poor, struggling immigrant Berkeley student fails to mention history of anti-white vandalism.

    The puff piece:
    http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-uc-berkeley-homeless-student-20180311-htmlstory.html

    Mr Chamu’s skeleton in the closet:

    http://www.dailycal.org/2017/07/18/plea-hearings-ismael-chamu-peter-estrada-postponed-august/

    Oh wait, I meant “skeleton on the front porch”. It’s only in the top 5 results when googling Chamu, after all. Funny that the reporter on the first piece missed it.

    Why is it that social justice’s poster children (e.g. Michael Brown, Jackie (UVA)) are so often fraudulent? Is there really no financially struggling Mexican student at Cal more sympathetic than this dishonest and entitled communist ?

  103. OT: Elizabeth Warren refuses to take a DNA test to settle her Native American identity question.

    “I know who I am and never used it for anything,” Warren said Sunday in an interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “Never got any benefit from it anywhere.”

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-elizabeth-warren-native-american-heritage-20180311-story.html

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Anon7

    Anon7, Elizabeth needs to widen her appeal. So that should read..."I knows who I be and I'se never used it for nothing. Never gots no shit from anywheres." There that locks up the Native American vote, couple thousand of them tops, and the black vote.

    , @Forbes
    @Anon7


    “Never got any benefit from it anywhere.”
     
    "Which is why I shouted it from the rooftops until after I got hired by Harvard." How else does a Rutgers-Newark Law School J.D. get a job at Harvard Law School.
  104. @Lugash
    Oh, and THELMA AND LOUISE.

    Replies: @Anon7

    That’s one of the two ways that a female buddy film is possible; losers or lesbians.

    Two normal heterosexual females will always wind up competing, not being buddies.

  105. Has it been mandatory since November 9, 2016 to insert an assertion of the horribleness of the current moment in all cultural commentary?

    .

    Seems so. E.g.,

  106. So-called “cult classics” are determined to be so by oppressive cishet white men who innately lack good taste and insight into the hue-man condition (it’s almost in our disgusting DNA). Our senseless, arbitrary selections do not represent America’s and the whole world’s bright and beautiful future, which is Of Color, queer, female and trans.
    Cry me a river, rhesus-positive cavemen!

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Briny Schmuck

    Briny, woo hoo, Nicely done and Tiny Duck wishes he/she had written this.

  107. Somethings–like the Three Stooges and Steely Dan–are just guy things.

  108. Not-quite-OT:

    Here is a recent article from The Guardian which avers that women are starting to distance themselves from the Alpha Male fantasy. Female romance novelists are growing ever more disgusted by their erstwhile protagonists’ resemblance to Donald Trump.

    In early November 2016, Sarah MacLean was 275 pages into writing her latest historical romance novel, The Day of the Duchess. She had hit all the right buttons – a titled (and entitled) duke; a beautiful, estranged wife touched by scandal; and an insurmountable challenge the pair had to mount before they could, well, mount each other. And then Donald Trump was elected. And MacLean couldn’t bear her hero any more.

    “I woke up on 9 November and I was like, ‘I can’t write another one of these rich entitled impenetrable alphas. I just can’t,” says the New York Times bestselling author. “It was the story of that horrible impenetrable alpha evolving through love to be a fully formed human, which is a thing we do a lot in romance. And I just couldn’t see a way in my head that he would ultimately not be a Trump voter.”

    The whole article is written in the style of typical and trite Current Year feminist hermeneutics, and the attacks on Donald Trump are gratuitous and unwarranted. But all the same, it being an article by women and for women, we cannot dismiss the possibility—the probability, the near certainty—that these are just heavy dollops of post hoc rationalization which conceal a genuine motive, however confused may be the ideas that bring it into expression.

    Could it be dawning on modern women that what they have wrought is not really in their best interest? That the kind of man they’ve idealized has not really provided for them what they thought he would, and that the reality they now live with is very much less to their satisfaction? Are they deflecting their hatred of their own creation upon Donald Trump with all the characteristic female blame-shifting and horror of being wrong? Might this change in sensibilities signify that the modern interpretation of sexual politics is beginning to fall apart? Stay tuned.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Intelligent Dasein

    ID, fifty thousand copies sold makes you a best selling NYT author, then this trash winds up on the dollar table at our local library.

    , @ThreeCranes
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Radical Feminist White women are bored with their lives. Life is too easy. The technical accomplishments of the stale, pale white male have taken all the danger and adventure out of life. If some are to be believed, she craves dark meat for its spiciness and savory sauce. This distresses white beta and some Alpha males. But it shouldn't.

    Instead of despairing (because, after all, we've done all we can do to make their lives safe) when some bored white chick complains about white alpha males, we should take the opposite tack. We should agree with them whole heartedly and then encourage them to set off on an adventure that will take them out of the orbit of whiteness and instead plop them down in the pure, primal, earthy, non-mediated experience one encounters in trips to say, the upper Amazon where people still live close to Nature.

    She should get away from the phoniness of present advanced civilization! She owes it to herself to explore all that life has to offer. Yes! Indeed! Men in the tropics are more virile! Life is simpler, distilled down to its essence in the remote jungles of Brazil, Africa or New Guinea! There, finally, she can live the simple life concerned only with human necessities, free at last from the invidious influence of whiteness with its attendant commercial, industrial artificiality. She should go! Beyond the boundaries. Know no Limits! For her own self development. Be strong, girl!

    (Of course, what she will find are disease, parasites, flesh consuming molds and fungus, a mind-boggling assortment of bizarre, hungry insects, foul half-cooked food and dysentery-inducing water, hostile warring tribes, superstition, nativism, gunplay etc etc; but don't tell her that. Let her sail forth, believing in her dreams. Encourage her. Meanwhile, let us take comfort in the knowledge that there is Justice in the world.)

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    , @Forbes
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Self-awareness and introspection not one of Sarah MacLean's strong suit...

    Of course, with women, watch what they do--not hat they say.

    , @Brutusale
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Ol' Sarah looks EXACTLY like someone excreting that sort of screed would look.

    https://reviews.libraryjournal.com/2014/07/featured/romance-awards-presented-in-san-antonio-rwa-2014/

  109. I’ve never watched The Big Lebowski, because I never liked Jeff Bridges or John Goodman, and because I had seen Raising Arizona, which made me think the Coen brothers sucked at comedy (I liked Blood Simple very much, so Arizona was a big disappointment.)

  110. Definitely Mean Girls, tons of girls will quote that movie (“get in loser, we’re going shopping”) the way tons of guys will quote other cult movies.

  111. OFF TOPIC

    Ann Coulter brings some publicity to the Brittany Pettibone political crime detention in the United Kingdom:

  112. OFF TOPIC

    Brittany Pettibone in a portion of a speech.

    Pettibone supports Free Speech, the UK government does not.

  113. I think women are less likely to be obsessed over pop culture than men are.

    • LOL: Forbes
    • Replies: @Forbes
    @ScarletNumber

    Ever been to a check-out aisle in an American grocery or drug store, or to a newsstand? Nearly every remaining print magazine is about pop culture targeted at women.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ScarletNumber

  114. Only thing I remember about MICHELLE AND ROMYS HIGH SCHOOL REUNION is that it had a pretty blunt anti-procreation line:

    Kudrow(IIRC): Well at least I didn’t get fat.
    Scientology Chick: I’m not fat, I’m pregnant.
    Kudrow: Well at least I didn’t get pregnant.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    @Lugash

    I don't much care for Kudrow or Larry Kudlow.

    , @Autochthon
    @Lugash

    I take your point but I think in this context it was just a great opportunity to work in how hilariously stupid the protagonists are.

    I worked at a video store at the time (remember those?) so I took all the promotional posters which featured fetching actresses and plastered them all over my dormitory once the store was set to replace them with the latest adverts. To this day I must say the giant poster of Sorvino and Kudrow in skirts that held pride of place on the interior side of my room's door invariably – I mean without fail – evoked an admiring comment from every single male who ever came into the room (about the actresses' beauty) AND every single female (about how much they LOVED the film).

    It really was a great film, underappreciated. A few years later View From The Top achieved similar things but was also similarly underappreciated. Has a better, more handy for everyday use and reuse gag ever come along than Myers' line about putting the accent on the wrong syl-LAB-le?! I think I've had occasion to use that bit when good-naturedly ribbing friends' mispronunciations more times than I could say....

    Beloved cult films require of their audience a certain appreciation for the unorthodox and quirky (otherwise they'd be beloved mainstream films) to attain that status. Females are far more collectivist and conformist than males for reasons well documented in this forum elsewhere. Hence, they do indeed have less cult films (or books, or albums, etc.) geared for them or appealing to them than do males.

    Replies: @Glaivester

  115. @Percy Gryce
    @Mr. Blank

    Fried Green Tomatoes, Steel Magnolias?

    Replies: @ia

    Fried Green Tomatoes gets 2,670,000 results on Google. Steel Magnolias, 2,800,000.

  116. @kihowi
    Of course, because it takes brains. To enjoy something as a cult classic you have to mentally step away from it. While you're watching, part of your brain is thinking about how its peculiarities contrast with regular movies or how its awfulness is so perfect that it becomes good again or how it reflects the age in which is was made. You can't just experience them just with your immediate feelings because a lot of the time they kind of suck that way.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia, @Roderick Spode

    I’m sorry your Mom was so unpleasant to you.

    • Replies: @kihowi
    @Roderick Spode

    I'm sorry you think rescuing maidens on the internet is going to make up for your lack of ability with real ones.

    And in a bitchy, passive aggressive way too. Ewww.

    Replies: @Roderick Spode

  117. OFF TOPIC

    The UK government under Prime Minister Theresa May and Home Secretary Amber Rudd, has detained Brittany Pettibone and have made it clear that she has been detained for political reasons.

    Pettibone:

    “The primary reason our political opponents have doubled down to the extent they have is because they’re afraid. They see that we’re gaining influence, particularly on the internet.”

    “And this is why they are denouncing alternative media as fake news. Why they are cutting off independent creators from their sources of income. Why they are slandering and defaming them by means of the mainstream media. And why they are banning conservatives from social media platforms like YouTube and Twitter.”

  118. @Lugash
    Only thing I remember about MICHELLE AND ROMYS HIGH SCHOOL REUNION is that it had a pretty blunt anti-procreation line:

    Kudrow(IIRC): Well at least I didn't get fat.
    Scientology Chick: I'm not fat, I'm pregnant.
    Kudrow: Well at least I didn't get pregnant.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt, @Autochthon

    I don’t much care for Kudrow or Larry Kudlow.

  119. Saw some 20-ish year old girls watching this and got a sort of cult thing in reponse. When I google ‘”10 things i hate about you” cult’, i get almost 500K hits

    • Replies: @songbird
    @jeremiahjohnbalaya

    It may be cliched to say so, but romance movies definitely resonate with women. They are nearly the only movies that I've heard women reference without much prompting.

    I recall I had an English teacher in high school who referenced a '80's romance and then was embarrassed that nobody else seemed to recognize it, since it made her feel old. I wonder if that explains part of the difference. My teacher was actually probably not quite 30, and still really good-looking.

  120. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/opinion/sunday/obama-trump-voters-democrats.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

    Steve, the NYT is attempting to examine Obama/Trump crossover voting from the 2012/16 campaigns

    • Replies: @Lagertha
    @Neoconned

    the failure of that article is: they just concentrate on the young voters who tuned out in 2012....not the old voters who pay all the taxes to support the lazy people, older voters, and women, who voted twice for O, but cast their lots for Trump in 2016.

  121. @Lugash
    Only thing I remember about MICHELLE AND ROMYS HIGH SCHOOL REUNION is that it had a pretty blunt anti-procreation line:

    Kudrow(IIRC): Well at least I didn't get fat.
    Scientology Chick: I'm not fat, I'm pregnant.
    Kudrow: Well at least I didn't get pregnant.

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt, @Autochthon

    I take your point but I think in this context it was just a great opportunity to work in how hilariously stupid the protagonists are.

    I worked at a video store at the time (remember those?) so I took all the promotional posters which featured fetching actresses and plastered them all over my dormitory once the store was set to replace them with the latest adverts. To this day I must say the giant poster of Sorvino and Kudrow in skirts that held pride of place on the interior side of my room’s door invariably – I mean without fail – evoked an admiring comment from every single male who ever came into the room (about the actresses’ beauty) AND every single female (about how much they LOVED the film).

    It really was a great film, underappreciated. A few years later View From The Top achieved similar things but was also similarly underappreciated. Has a better, more handy for everyday use and reuse gag ever come along than Myers’ line about putting the accent on the wrong syl-LAB-le?! I think I’ve had occasion to use that bit when good-naturedly ribbing friends’ mispronunciations more times than I could say….

    Beloved cult films require of their audience a certain appreciation for the unorthodox and quirky (otherwise they’d be beloved mainstream films) to attain that status. Females are far more collectivist and conformist than males for reasons well documented in this forum elsewhere. Hence, they do indeed have less cult films (or books, or albums, etc.) geared for them or appealing to them than do males.

    • Replies: @Glaivester
    @Autochthon


    Has a better, more handy for everyday use and reuse gag ever come along than Myers’ line about putting the accent on the wrong syl-LAB-le?!
     
    That was not original with him. I remember my chemistry teacher in college (I graduated in 2001) saying "if you put the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLable, you make it sound PECK-u-lar." (That he elided the third syllable in peculiar and so did more than just shift the accents was never brought up).
  122. OFF TOPIC

    Brittany Pettibone is a REAL American woman who was detained for 2 or 3 days in a UK prison because the UK government doesn’t like her politics and the UK government is crushing FREE SPEECH.

    Britanny Pettibone is not a movie nor a cult nor a character created by some Hollywood slob.

    Pettibone went to one of the Battles of Berkeley to fight for FREE SPEECH.

    Pettibone is the future by virtue of being a young lady of child bearing age.

    Pettibone is worth fighting for, and Prime Minister Theresa May and Home Secretary Amber Rudd have started a war they will not win.

    Brittany Pettibone won’t back down, she will only fight harder for her people and her nation.

    https://twitter.com/BrittPettibone/status/972932961594167296

  123. @Anon7
    OT: Elizabeth Warren refuses to take a DNA test to settle her Native American identity question.

    "I know who I am and never used it for anything," Warren said Sunday in an interview on NBC's "Meet the Press." "Never got any benefit from it anywhere."
     
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-elizabeth-warren-native-american-heritage-20180311-story.html

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Forbes

    Anon7, Elizabeth needs to widen her appeal. So that should read…”I knows who I be and I’se never used it for nothing. Never gots no shit from anywheres.” There that locks up the Native American vote, couple thousand of them tops, and the black vote.

  124. @Briny Schmuck
    So-called "cult classics" are determined to be so by oppressive cishet white men who innately lack good taste and insight into the hue-man condition (it's almost in our disgusting DNA). Our senseless, arbitrary selections do not represent America's and the whole world's bright and beautiful future, which is Of Color, queer, female and trans.
    Cry me a river, rhesus-positive cavemen!

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Briny, woo hoo, Nicely done and Tiny Duck wishes he/she had written this.

  125. ” … are women less nostalgic than men? ”

    Yes. They are also less romantic. Generally speaking, men are dreamers while women remain grounded to the elements. Women are practical; biology has made them this way.

    I saw The Big Lebowski when it opened in theaters in 1998. Since then, the Dude has been a role model for me. The Hudsucker Proxy was one of the Coen brothers’ more annoying efforts. The Coens are at their best when they mix darkness and mirth. I’m thinking of the ornery Texas women that pop up amidst the bloodshed in No Country for Old Men.

  126. @Intelligent Dasein
    Not-quite-OT:

    Here is a recent article from The Guardian which avers that women are starting to distance themselves from the Alpha Male fantasy. Female romance novelists are growing ever more disgusted by their erstwhile protagonists' resemblance to Donald Trump.

    In early November 2016, Sarah MacLean was 275 pages into writing her latest historical romance novel, The Day of the Duchess. She had hit all the right buttons – a titled (and entitled) duke; a beautiful, estranged wife touched by scandal; and an insurmountable challenge the pair had to mount before they could, well, mount each other. And then Donald Trump was elected. And MacLean couldn’t bear her hero any more.

    “I woke up on 9 November and I was like, ‘I can’t write another one of these rich entitled impenetrable alphas. I just can’t,” says the New York Times bestselling author. “It was the story of that horrible impenetrable alpha evolving through love to be a fully formed human, which is a thing we do a lot in romance. And I just couldn’t see a way in my head that he would ultimately not be a Trump voter.”
     
    The whole article is written in the style of typical and trite Current Year feminist hermeneutics, and the attacks on Donald Trump are gratuitous and unwarranted. But all the same, it being an article by women and for women, we cannot dismiss the possibility---the probability, the near certainty---that these are just heavy dollops of post hoc rationalization which conceal a genuine motive, however confused may be the ideas that bring it into expression.

    Could it be dawning on modern women that what they have wrought is not really in their best interest? That the kind of man they've idealized has not really provided for them what they thought he would, and that the reality they now live with is very much less to their satisfaction? Are they deflecting their hatred of their own creation upon Donald Trump with all the characteristic female blame-shifting and horror of being wrong? Might this change in sensibilities signify that the modern interpretation of sexual politics is beginning to fall apart? Stay tuned.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @ThreeCranes, @Forbes, @Brutusale

    ID, fifty thousand copies sold makes you a best selling NYT author, then this trash winds up on the dollar table at our local library.

  127. @Intelligent Dasein
    Not-quite-OT:

    Here is a recent article from The Guardian which avers that women are starting to distance themselves from the Alpha Male fantasy. Female romance novelists are growing ever more disgusted by their erstwhile protagonists' resemblance to Donald Trump.

    In early November 2016, Sarah MacLean was 275 pages into writing her latest historical romance novel, The Day of the Duchess. She had hit all the right buttons – a titled (and entitled) duke; a beautiful, estranged wife touched by scandal; and an insurmountable challenge the pair had to mount before they could, well, mount each other. And then Donald Trump was elected. And MacLean couldn’t bear her hero any more.

    “I woke up on 9 November and I was like, ‘I can’t write another one of these rich entitled impenetrable alphas. I just can’t,” says the New York Times bestselling author. “It was the story of that horrible impenetrable alpha evolving through love to be a fully formed human, which is a thing we do a lot in romance. And I just couldn’t see a way in my head that he would ultimately not be a Trump voter.”
     
    The whole article is written in the style of typical and trite Current Year feminist hermeneutics, and the attacks on Donald Trump are gratuitous and unwarranted. But all the same, it being an article by women and for women, we cannot dismiss the possibility---the probability, the near certainty---that these are just heavy dollops of post hoc rationalization which conceal a genuine motive, however confused may be the ideas that bring it into expression.

    Could it be dawning on modern women that what they have wrought is not really in their best interest? That the kind of man they've idealized has not really provided for them what they thought he would, and that the reality they now live with is very much less to their satisfaction? Are they deflecting their hatred of their own creation upon Donald Trump with all the characteristic female blame-shifting and horror of being wrong? Might this change in sensibilities signify that the modern interpretation of sexual politics is beginning to fall apart? Stay tuned.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @ThreeCranes, @Forbes, @Brutusale

    Radical Feminist White women are bored with their lives. Life is too easy. The technical accomplishments of the stale, pale white male have taken all the danger and adventure out of life. If some are to be believed, she craves dark meat for its spiciness and savory sauce. This distresses white beta and some Alpha males. But it shouldn’t.

    Instead of despairing (because, after all, we’ve done all we can do to make their lives safe) when some bored white chick complains about white alpha males, we should take the opposite tack. We should agree with them whole heartedly and then encourage them to set off on an adventure that will take them out of the orbit of whiteness and instead plop them down in the pure, primal, earthy, non-mediated experience one encounters in trips to say, the upper Amazon where people still live close to Nature.

    She should get away from the phoniness of present advanced civilization! She owes it to herself to explore all that life has to offer. Yes! Indeed! Men in the tropics are more virile! Life is simpler, distilled down to its essence in the remote jungles of Brazil, Africa or New Guinea! There, finally, she can live the simple life concerned only with human necessities, free at last from the invidious influence of whiteness with its attendant commercial, industrial artificiality. She should go! Beyond the boundaries. Know no Limits! For her own self development. Be strong, girl!

    (Of course, what she will find are disease, parasites, flesh consuming molds and fungus, a mind-boggling assortment of bizarre, hungry insects, foul half-cooked food and dysentery-inducing water, hostile warring tribes, superstition, nativism, gunplay etc etc; but don’t tell her that. Let her sail forth, believing in her dreams. Encourage her. Meanwhile, let us take comfort in the knowledge that there is Justice in the world.)

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @ThreeCranes

    "encourage them to set off on an adventure that will take them out of the orbit of whiteness and instead plop them down in the pure, primal, earthy, non-mediated experience one encounters in trips to say, the upper Amazon where people still live close to Nature"

    Like this childless, brave (she'd walked to the South Pole previously) but foolish woman.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4913778/Last-pictures-British-head-teacher-murdered-Amazon.html

    Her fate would probably have remained a mystery had not the people who robbed, raped and killed her inadvertantly hit the 'SOS' button on her emergency tracking beacon while trying to discover how it worked. Her body's still not been found.

    Replies: @Autochthon

  128. @The Z Blog
    In my youth, every girl saw Officer and a Gentlemen fifty times. The girls I was dating at the time had me see it with her. The theater was an estrogen bath.

    Pretty Woman probably counts as a cult classic for women. That's another I recall every woman I knew talking about a lot.

    Rocky Horror was more a girl thing than a straight male thing.

    My guess is "cult classics" work for men because men are more inclined to nostalgia. Oldies radio skews male, while older women will listen to current pop stations much more than older men.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    “Pretty Woman probably counts as a cult classic for women.”

    Romy and Michelle have watched it 36 times:

  129. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    That’s because of gays, who control most of the online tumblr/twitter .gif culture that largely dictates what becomes iconic nowadays in terms of that kind of film and TV show, not because of women.

  130. @cthoms
    Just asked the wife "What comes to mind when you hear the words cult classic?"
    Immediately: "A movie?" (yes, increasing pitch, so not completely sure)
    "What would be an example?"
    Long pause. "Wayne's World?"
    Long pause (getting my laughing under control).
    "What would be a woman's cult classic?"
    Another long pause. "You've Got Mail"
    Understandable. It's the only movie she watches regularly (annually).
    "I was thinking more like "St. Elmo's Fire"
    "Oh yeah, those brat pack movies, you're right, those would be better."

    So yeah, score one for Steve, woman probably don't grok "Cult Classic" as deeply as men.

    Personally I think there actually might be a singular example of the entire phenomenon. A movie that when released caused so much ruckus that the owners (producers) actually attempted to withdraw it. Despite that it still earned out and you can buy a blu-ray of it today. 1979's The Warriors. A movie that most women have never seen and many have never heard of.

    St. Elmo's Fire + cult: 100k
    Sixteen Candles + cult: 316k

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous

    “The Warriors,” an ultra-stylized gang movie, is inspired by Xenophon’s Anabasis, right?

    It made $22 million at the box office. For a 1979 release, that’s pretty good, so it wasn’t overlooked initially.

    Probably having some High Culture links, like The Warriors has (Xenophon was Socrates’ middle-brow protege), helps male cult movies.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    @Steve Sailer

    A lot more of this goes on than most people realise. Setting aside the language and costume, any given episode of Three's Company would have been entirely at home in the Dionysia of antient Greece, and even more so in the comedia dell'arte.

    Yet most people don't even appreciate the even more overtly derivative things like The Lion King or Clueless.

  131. Yes, Steve forgot to mention The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975)
    that still draws sold-out audiences at midnight screenings around
    the country, for example at the Nuart Theatre in West LA. That’s
    more than 40 years after its release. The college kids one sees
    standing in line (Nuart is not far from UCLA) seem like a good mix of men
    and women.

    Another cult classic that’s beginning to replace The Rocky Horror is
    Tommy Wiseau’s The Room (2003). It’s been dubbed the Citizen Kane of
    bad movies, an unintentional romantic dramedy, although written by Wiseau
    (made-up name designed to conceal his European origin) reportedly as
    a tribute to Tennessee Williams. The movie has now been a staple at
    midnight screenings for more than 10 years. For example, it’s been
    playing in Westwood, even closer to UCLA than Nuart, and, again, one
    sees a good mix of men and women. I can see why the movie might
    appeal to women. First of all, The Room is based on a real incident in
    Wiseau’s life: in the 1980s when he lived in San Francisco he met
    a beautiful woman, bought her a $1500 engagement ring, she moved in
    with him, and then proceeded to betray him several times (according
    to Wiseau). Secondly, with his mane of jet-black hair, muscular build
    (incl. extremely powerful hands, according to his friends), and sunglasses
    at all times, he looks like he could be on the cover of a romance novel.
    Thirdly, there is a whole mystique around him. For example, how did
    he become so wealthy he could easily spend millions to make and promote
    The Room? Now there is a book, The Disaster Artist, about his life written
    by his friend Greg Sestero, and a movie based on the book. That doesn’t
    happen too often. There is, of course, Kerouac’s On the Road (1957),
    a roman à clef whose chief protagonist is Neal Cassady, which was eventually
    made into a movie, and Kerouac’s The Dharma Bums (1958), mostly about
    the poet Gary Snyder who at 88 is still alive. The latter is still awaiting a movie
    version.

  132. @TJ hooker
    @The Alarmist

    I think we need to distinguish between a "chick flick" (a movie whose popularity is skewed heavily to women) and "female cult classic" (a movie only hugely popular to small-ish subset of women??? or only popular latter). I would says most these were popular female films. Add Dirty Dancing to that list.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    “I think we need to distinguish between a “chick flick” (a movie whose popularity is skewed heavily to women) and “female cult classic” (a movie only hugely popular to small-ish subset of women??? or only popular later).”

    Right. Not as many women as men care enough to put a lot of effort into arguing years later that Everybody Was Wrong About Movie X When It First Came Out.

  133. @Bardon Kaldian
    Although there have been famous female critics in the US, don't forget that cinephilia & erudite writing about film is a male thing (Eisenstein, Bresson, Rosenbaum, ..). So, movie addiction is a mostly male trait/passion, like, for instance, science fiction.

    Women, as a rule- I think- are not so moved by any visual art (or entertainment). Just compare females in literature to those in painting & film making. Perhaps something to do with differences in brain?

    As for "cult classics", I'm here with women: I find virtually all "cult films" over-rated (not bad, just overrated): Casablanca, Citizen Kane (Bergman was right), The Maltese Falcon, The Big Lebowski,.. .
    Also, females tend to indulge in soapy emotions. Most movies worth seeing don't fall into that category. And many US females tend to uncritically accept 3rd rate blabber on evil white males, hence the enormous popularity (among female audience) of dull & pontificating "To Kill a Mockingbird" (both a novel & a movie).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    In her tastes in movies, Pauline Kael was sort of a guys’ gal out of a Howard Hawks film.

    • Replies: @Whoever
    @Steve Sailer


    a guys’ gal out of a Howard Hawks film
     
    That phrase intrigued me, as I know there are definitely "guy's gals," although they seem to be becoming as rare as men's men, so I looked around and discovered there is actually a Hawksian woman.
    She can hold her own in a wit-driven argument, have the same profession as her male counterpart, and keep her cool under stress. But this does not detract from her feminine qualities, such as seductiveness and softness.
    Most who write about this type of woman focus on Lauren Bacall, but I think Joan Dru is a much better example. To me, Bacall comes off as a bit physically frail, and, from some angles, kind of odd-looking.
    Joan Dru looks like a "normal" American woman (which she was -- a West-By-God-Virginia gal) who has spunk and guts and doesn't put up with crap from anyone.
    https://i.imgur.com/G45mtGl.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/s53bldO.jpg
    The Hawksian woman should not be confused with the type of woman often portrayed by Bette Davis. She tended to play a disagreeable, hostile, arrogant, and definitely less easy-going, variety of woman who really didn't like men, and was contemptuous of them.
    The Hawksian woman, in contrast, is quite fond of men, and admires them if they live up to all that it means to be a real man. But if they don't ... .
    https://youtu.be/dWyA6LT0DdU

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Autochthon

  134. @European-American
    Somewhat related:

    Have women created any cults?

    They certainly follow cults, sometimes long after most men have left them.

    But creating cults... It seems like a stubbornly dumb thing only men would do. No offense intended to any men who might be among the readers of iSteve. Some of my best friends are cults.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @jimmyriddle, @Thea

    Ayn Rand.

    Opera singers like Maria Callas.

    Aimee Semple McPherson, Madame Blavatsky.

    On the other hand, you could probably point to men doing much of the creating of these cults, like Ayn Rand’s boyfriend what’s his name.

    • Replies: @European-American
    @Steve Sailer

    Nathaniel Branden! Great Randian name. Ah, his original name was Blumenthal...


    Nathaniel Branden (born Nathan Blumenthal; April 9, 1930 – December 3, 2014) was a Canadian–American psychotherapist and writer known for his work in the psychology of self-esteem. A former associate and romantic partner of Ayn Rand, Branden also played a prominent role in the 1960s in promoting Rand's philosophy, Objectivism. Rand and Branden split acrimoniously in 1968, after which Branden focused on developing his own psychological theories and modes of therapy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Branden

     

    Also Mary Baker Eddy founded Christian Science.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Steve Sailer


    Ayn Rand.
     
    Oh that is a good one.You will have the Libertarians out for your scalp now. But at least you don't have to worry about the idiot who tackled Rand Paul. (Ayn Rand, Rand Paul, coincidence? I don't think so!)

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  135. @Tyrion 2
    @snorlax


    Back to anecdotes, Netflix’s 80′s nostalgia-fest Stranger Things achieved the nearest to 50-50 gender parity in terms of interest and enthusiasm of any sci-fi work I can remember.
     
    Normally sci-fi is a male genre. Stranger Things is a childrens' adventure story with added emotions. Hence it was more popular with women despite being about little gang of boys a la Stand By Me. Any man who doesn't pike Stand By Me has issues but it barely registers with women who don't have sons.

    My wife and I both liked it, but I don't recognise it as actual sci-fi. That element merely comes from its style being a pastiche of various efforts from the 80s. I liked the music plus the Stand By Me stuff and my wife liked the kids' adventure story.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel

    Any man who doesn’t pike Stand By Me has issues but it barely registers with women who don’t have sons.

    What are you talking about? That movie has mass appeal, young, old, male, female. I was too young to watch it in theaters when it came out, but it was a staple VCR movie with friends and frequently on TV. The song it was named after was one of the few oldies on our mixtapes. And I would bet that teenage girls contributed to making it a sleeper hit in the summer of ’86. Around 10 years later, I clearly remember Hollywood tried to ride on that film’s strong resonance with women and teenage girls by heavily marketing Now and Then as a sort of female version. (Alas, it was nowhere near as good.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @AnotherGuessModel

    The distinction between sleeper hit and cult movie is sort of real but also kind of blurry. Presumably a sleeper hit is a movie made without high expectations but that quickly takes off with the public upon release.

    Another distinction I'd point out is that male cult movies tend to be ones that guys try to _argue_ other guys into liking by use of rational arguments. I think most women consider that kind of stupid: e.g., there's no arguing over taste.

    Replies: @anon

    , @Tyrion 2
    @AnotherGuessModel

    I'm obviously a lot younger than you and although I and a number of male acquaintances like Stand By Me very much, no women I know has even seen it.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel, @Kylie

  136. @hamont
    Idiocracy is similarly a cult film that is liked by an overwhelmingly male demographic.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The preferred nomenclature is...

    I played a tiny role in helping Idiocracy survive its homicidal release by the studio.

    • Replies: @European-American
    @Steve Sailer

    To save our dear leader some typing, he details his heroic role in defending Idiocracy here:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/mike-judge-interviewed-by-alex-jones-on/

  137. @jeremiahjohnbalaya
    Saw some 20-ish year old girls watching this and got a sort of cult thing in reponse. When I google '"10 things i hate about you" cult', i get almost 500K hits

    Replies: @songbird

    It may be cliched to say so, but romance movies definitely resonate with women. They are nearly the only movies that I’ve heard women reference without much prompting.

    I recall I had an English teacher in high school who referenced a ’80’s romance and then was embarrassed that nobody else seemed to recognize it, since it made her feel old. I wonder if that explains part of the difference. My teacher was actually probably not quite 30, and still really good-looking.

  138. @Steve Sailer
    @European-American

    Ayn Rand.

    Opera singers like Maria Callas.

    Aimee Semple McPherson, Madame Blavatsky.

    On the other hand, you could probably point to men doing much of the creating of these cults, like Ayn Rand's boyfriend what's his name.

    Replies: @European-American, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Nathaniel Branden! Great Randian name. Ah, his original name was Blumenthal…

    Nathaniel Branden (born Nathan Blumenthal; April 9, 1930 – December 3, 2014) was a Canadian–American psychotherapist and writer known for his work in the psychology of self-esteem. A former associate and romantic partner of Ayn Rand, Branden also played a prominent role in the 1960s in promoting Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism. Rand and Branden split acrimoniously in 1968, after which Branden focused on developing his own psychological theories and modes of therapy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Branden

    Also Mary Baker Eddy founded Christian Science.

  139. @Anon7
    OT: Elizabeth Warren refuses to take a DNA test to settle her Native American identity question.

    "I know who I am and never used it for anything," Warren said Sunday in an interview on NBC's "Meet the Press." "Never got any benefit from it anywhere."
     
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-elizabeth-warren-native-american-heritage-20180311-story.html

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Forbes

    “Never got any benefit from it anywhere.”

    “Which is why I shouted it from the rooftops until after I got hired by Harvard.” How else does a Rutgers-Newark Law School J.D. get a job at Harvard Law School.

  140. @AnotherGuessModel
    @Tyrion 2


    Any man who doesn’t pike Stand By Me has issues but it barely registers with women who don’t have sons.
     
    What are you talking about? That movie has mass appeal, young, old, male, female. I was too young to watch it in theaters when it came out, but it was a staple VCR movie with friends and frequently on TV. The song it was named after was one of the few oldies on our mixtapes. And I would bet that teenage girls contributed to making it a sleeper hit in the summer of '86. Around 10 years later, I clearly remember Hollywood tried to ride on that film's strong resonance with women and teenage girls by heavily marketing Now and Then as a sort of female version. (Alas, it was nowhere near as good.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Tyrion 2

    The distinction between sleeper hit and cult movie is sort of real but also kind of blurry. Presumably a sleeper hit is a movie made without high expectations but that quickly takes off with the public upon release.

    Another distinction I’d point out is that male cult movies tend to be ones that guys try to _argue_ other guys into liking by use of rational arguments. I think most women consider that kind of stupid: e.g., there’s no arguing over taste.

    • Replies: @anon
    @Steve Sailer

    I stumbled upon this when I visited Mackinac Island for a conference (and golfing) about 5 years ago … 1980’s Somewhere in Time with Jane Seymour and Christopher Reeves has a very weird cult that worships it. People drop five grand to dress up and … I don’t really know … pretend they’re in the movie? It was wild. The movie was shot at the island’s “Grand” Hotel, a 100 some years old wooden hotel. The island has no cars. The hotel’s golf course “The Jewel” has a neat gimmick — the front and back nine are seperated by a 15 minute horse drawn carriage ride. I had never even heard of this movie until I ended up there by chance. It’s Rocky Horror for nice white ladies.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Achmed E. Newman

  141. I think I recall Chris Kattan had this really small but loyal female fanbase.

  142. @Michelle
    I can't speak for all women, but my taste in movies is considered by most people to be on the bizarre side, for both men and women. I do like cult movies with a touch of sweetness such as, Fargo, What's Eating Gilbert Grape, Edward Scissorhands, Northfork, Big Bad Love, Waterboy, Wilder Napalm and Napoleon Dynamite. Donnie Darko is absolutely perfect and portrays Republicans as great parents and good people.

    I can quote most of the dialogue to, Jaws, by heart, ditto with, Deliverance.

    I also love all Clint Eastwood's Westerns and Spaghetti Westerns. All Charles Bronson movies, especially Red Sun. I love quirky dark Australian movies, like Sweetie. I love violent nihilistic movies, like Mad Max, Road Warrior, the Proposition, Wolf Creek, Henry, Portrait of a Serial killer, Natural Born Killers, Sexy Beast. I love all Coen Brothers, Ridley Scott, Michael Mann, Wes Anderson, Jim Jarmusch and Peter Jackson movies. Alien, Aliens, Terminators, 1 & 2. The Highlander. Near Dark. Stake Land.

    Japanese movies, Tampopo, Tetsuo, most samurai and Yakuza films, and all Kurasawa films. Korean movies have been especially good in the last 20 years, very, very dark, Mother, for example. I love films about cannibals, Parents, Trouble Every Day, Ravenous, The Hills Have Eyes.

    In a class by itself is my all time favorite movie, Once Were Warriors. Terrible, beautiful movie, people hate me for recommending it to them.

    I love all the older David Lean films, Oliver Twist, Great Expectations, with Guy Greene cinematography are fantastic.

    Here is a crazy, fantastic, silly fight scene from my favorite Tsui Hark martial arts film, the Blade, https://youtu.be/9yHQOYG8dfc

    I thought the movie, Mongol, was great, it also has a wonderful sound track. Here is a song from the movie by the Mongolian band, Altan Ulrag, https://youtu.be/kcnvmqypPk0

    Here, in the same vein, as Mongol, is the spectacular Russian movie, the Horde, free on YouTube, https://youtu.be/7q8C34jD-x8

    Replies: @Kylie

    Someone once asked me what I did the previous evening. I said in all seriousness, “My husband and I had such a romantic night. First we had dinner, then we watched ‘Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer.’”

    You have some good movies on your list. If you like dark, have you seen “Dogtooth” or “Magical Girl”? Another good one is “Goddess of Earth”. I agree that the Koreans make some wonderful movies. I recommend “Epitaph” (gorgeous cinematography), “Memories of Murder”, “The Crescent Moon” and “Poetry”.

    ETA: I really hated “Once Were Warriors”.

    • Replies: @Michelle
    @Kylie

    I loved Dog Tooth and really liked Killing of a Sacred Deer by the same director, though not as much. I am definitely going to watch the other movies you listed. Have you seen Animal Kingdom and the Snowtown Murders?

    Replies: @Kylie

  143. @whorefinder
    @TGGP

    Pride and Prejudice is helped because it's made into a well-made movie every ten years.

    Plus, like most female movies, the theme of Pride and Prejudice's film adaptations is that a free-spirited young woman helps a repressed, alpha male open up his feelz for her. That's the same theme as 50 Shades of Gray and Pretty Woman and any female-centered romantic movie.

    Few people these days realize that Pride and Prejudice was written as a half-satire of the romantic novels of Austen's day. Austen was a very formal kind of woman who disapproved of impropriety; for example, she was not above criticizing the heir to the throne for his debaucherous behavior. But nowadays we have this image that Austen as all about breaking propriety and free spiritedness, a vie Austen would have found scandalous.

    In short: if you're a fiction writer, don't write in a sarcastic tone. Future generations might not be smart enough (or willing) to note your tone. Satire swims well in the milieu of its times, but doesn't transfer well into future oceans.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Intelligent Dasein

    “Satire swims well in the milieu of its times, but doesn’t transfer well into future oceans.”

    And that’s why nobody reads Don Quixote anymore. Or Gulliver’s Travels. Or Jane Austen.

    • Agree: Tyrion 2
    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Steve Sailer

    I didn't say the literature didn't transfer, I said the satirical elements didn't transfer. All the the examples you mentioned are not read as satire today, and in fact most people don't think of them as that.

    Austen's satire goes completely over the head of modern readers, especially since the movies re-inforce the novels as non-satirical.

    I once read a prominent black writer who didn't understand Gulliver's Travels was a satire. He thought it was simply a children's tale, and actually used it as an example of how writers should be careful at what they create, since they might not be known for their "intellectual" works but instead remembered (as he thought Swift was) for silly works of fantasy. The multitude of adaptations on TV and film of the book share little of the original satire (they had an awful one just a few years ago with the terminally unfunny Jack Black).

    Don Quixote began as a straight satire of chivalrous romances popular in Spain at the time, but as any lit professor will tell you it evolved into something far greater than that. Modern audiences don't read it as a satire, either, because (1) we don't have those other novels around; and (2) the emphasis is on the other, greater literary aspects. Picture the TV show Archer if it suddenly developed more gravitas and started talking about sociopolitical commentary in an entertaining way and used stunning wordplay and descriptions while Archer was slapping his butler around or murdering scores of drug dealers---that's pretty much the best current description of what Don Quixote became and is read for these days.

    I guess it's a testament to how well these authors constructed their works that people still adapt and read them today without any notion of the original bite. They developed entertaining and interesting worlds for their characters that people love exploring.

  144. @Achmed E. Newman
    How come you never mention Raising Arizona, Steve? That's about my favorite. Maybe you've got to be a redneck to appreciate it. I'm also wondering why these 2 brother/directors are so into kidnappings in their movies. Maybe it's just the 2 movies.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon

    I liked Raising Arizona a lot when I saw it on video around 1988. But I haven’t seen it since.

  145. @Intelligent Dasein
    Not-quite-OT:

    Here is a recent article from The Guardian which avers that women are starting to distance themselves from the Alpha Male fantasy. Female romance novelists are growing ever more disgusted by their erstwhile protagonists' resemblance to Donald Trump.

    In early November 2016, Sarah MacLean was 275 pages into writing her latest historical romance novel, The Day of the Duchess. She had hit all the right buttons – a titled (and entitled) duke; a beautiful, estranged wife touched by scandal; and an insurmountable challenge the pair had to mount before they could, well, mount each other. And then Donald Trump was elected. And MacLean couldn’t bear her hero any more.

    “I woke up on 9 November and I was like, ‘I can’t write another one of these rich entitled impenetrable alphas. I just can’t,” says the New York Times bestselling author. “It was the story of that horrible impenetrable alpha evolving through love to be a fully formed human, which is a thing we do a lot in romance. And I just couldn’t see a way in my head that he would ultimately not be a Trump voter.”
     
    The whole article is written in the style of typical and trite Current Year feminist hermeneutics, and the attacks on Donald Trump are gratuitous and unwarranted. But all the same, it being an article by women and for women, we cannot dismiss the possibility---the probability, the near certainty---that these are just heavy dollops of post hoc rationalization which conceal a genuine motive, however confused may be the ideas that bring it into expression.

    Could it be dawning on modern women that what they have wrought is not really in their best interest? That the kind of man they've idealized has not really provided for them what they thought he would, and that the reality they now live with is very much less to their satisfaction? Are they deflecting their hatred of their own creation upon Donald Trump with all the characteristic female blame-shifting and horror of being wrong? Might this change in sensibilities signify that the modern interpretation of sexual politics is beginning to fall apart? Stay tuned.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @ThreeCranes, @Forbes, @Brutusale

    Self-awareness and introspection not one of Sarah MacLean’s strong suit…

    Of course, with women, watch what they do–not hat they say.

  146. “Sure, Rocky Horror, you don’t have to be gay … but it probably helps.”

    I’d not really kept tabs on it, ignored it when it came out, but I went for a pizza in Wimbledon in the mid-80s and I couldn’t believe what my fellow diners were wearing, especially the girls – lots of basques, fishnets and OT eye makeup. Then I realised the theatre next door was staging Rocky Horror, that this was a cross-section of the audience (who seemed resolutely heterosexual judging by their women), and that dressing for the show was obviously ‘a thing’.

    OT, but we have yet another mega-grooming scandal in the UK, with the usual suspects and usual victims, this time in Telford, a hideous “new town” which defaces lovely Shropshire. Social workers and police looking the other way yet again, probably checking Twitter for hate speech.

    One victim’s house was firebombed and her family killed.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-worst-ever-child-grooming-12165527

    Cult movies – Idiocracy?

  147. @BB753
    Steve "gets" all the Coen Brothers films but never got Twilight, as Priss Factory famously put it! Me, I never got either, particularly not "Brother where art Thou?".

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    • Replies: @DCThrowback
    @Steve Sailer

    Knight & Day gets better each time I watch it.

    Approaching "Mr. & Mrs. Smith" levels of rewatchability.

  148. @ScarletNumber
    I think women are less likely to be obsessed over pop culture than men are.

    Replies: @Forbes

    Ever been to a check-out aisle in an American grocery or drug store, or to a newsstand? Nearly every remaining print magazine is about pop culture targeted at women.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Forbes

    Killing time in the drug store at the magazine rack, it struck me that the magazines that are prospering are the ones where the main attractions were always the ads: e.g., Vogue and other fashion magazines. The latest issue of Vogue is 444 pages. In contrast, the magazines where the content was the attraction, such as Time, have shrunk away to husks of themselves.

    Online remains strikingly poor at delivering ads, even though that's where all the money is. It's one of the weirder facts of the Internet age.

    Replies: @3g4me

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Forbes

    There is a difference between following pop culture and being obsessed with it. Women may watch The Bachelor and Dancing with the Stars, but they aren't going to go to a convention about those shows.

  149. @Steve Sailer
    @hamont

    I played a tiny role in helping Idiocracy survive its homicidal release by the studio.

    Replies: @European-American

    To save our dear leader some typing, he details his heroic role in defending Idiocracy here:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/mike-judge-interviewed-by-alex-jones-on/

  150. @AnotherGuessModel
    @Tyrion 2


    Any man who doesn’t pike Stand By Me has issues but it barely registers with women who don’t have sons.
     
    What are you talking about? That movie has mass appeal, young, old, male, female. I was too young to watch it in theaters when it came out, but it was a staple VCR movie with friends and frequently on TV. The song it was named after was one of the few oldies on our mixtapes. And I would bet that teenage girls contributed to making it a sleeper hit in the summer of '86. Around 10 years later, I clearly remember Hollywood tried to ride on that film's strong resonance with women and teenage girls by heavily marketing Now and Then as a sort of female version. (Alas, it was nowhere near as good.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Tyrion 2

    I’m obviously a lot younger than you and although I and a number of male acquaintances like Stand By Me very much, no women I know has even seen it.

    • Replies: @AnotherGuessModel
    @Tyrion 2

    You all should remedy that asap and watch it with your girlfriends. Snuggling up on the couch watching a movie like Stand By Me for the first time would be a dream date for me, now and when I was younger.

    , @Kylie
    @Tyrion 2

    You mean Stand by Me, the 1986 movie based on a Stephen King story? I saw it and liked it.

  151. @European-American
    Somewhat related:

    Have women created any cults?

    They certainly follow cults, sometimes long after most men have left them.

    But creating cults... It seems like a stubbornly dumb thing only men would do. No offense intended to any men who might be among the readers of iSteve. Some of my best friends are cults.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @jimmyriddle, @Thea

    Mary Baker Eddy started Christian Science – relatively harmless as cults go, give or take the odd follower who needlessly bleeds to death.

    • Agree: European-American
  152. @Autochthon
    @Lugash

    I take your point but I think in this context it was just a great opportunity to work in how hilariously stupid the protagonists are.

    I worked at a video store at the time (remember those?) so I took all the promotional posters which featured fetching actresses and plastered them all over my dormitory once the store was set to replace them with the latest adverts. To this day I must say the giant poster of Sorvino and Kudrow in skirts that held pride of place on the interior side of my room's door invariably – I mean without fail – evoked an admiring comment from every single male who ever came into the room (about the actresses' beauty) AND every single female (about how much they LOVED the film).

    It really was a great film, underappreciated. A few years later View From The Top achieved similar things but was also similarly underappreciated. Has a better, more handy for everyday use and reuse gag ever come along than Myers' line about putting the accent on the wrong syl-LAB-le?! I think I've had occasion to use that bit when good-naturedly ribbing friends' mispronunciations more times than I could say....

    Beloved cult films require of their audience a certain appreciation for the unorthodox and quirky (otherwise they'd be beloved mainstream films) to attain that status. Females are far more collectivist and conformist than males for reasons well documented in this forum elsewhere. Hence, they do indeed have less cult films (or books, or albums, etc.) geared for them or appealing to them than do males.

    Replies: @Glaivester

    Has a better, more handy for everyday use and reuse gag ever come along than Myers’ line about putting the accent on the wrong syl-LAB-le?!

    That was not original with him. I remember my chemistry teacher in college (I graduated in 2001) saying “if you put the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLable, you make it sound PECK-u-lar.” (That he elided the third syllable in peculiar and so did more than just shift the accents was never brought up).

  153. @Alfa158
    Love Actually is bit of a cult classic with modern middle class White women. Lots of men are bad women good fantasy; sensitive soy boy pining hopelessly for friend’s wife , male model hunk crazy about oppressed average looking older woman but romance ruined by her vicious psychotic brother, dowdy housewives done wrong by nasty overbearing husband who falls for office minx, plump secretaries wooed by handsome Prime Minister, evil Clinton/Bush hybrid US President, it just goes on and on. Basically, women’s version of pron.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel

    It’s a very charming and cohesive ensemble movie, and it switches between different moods seamlessly, from drama to romantic comedy to sex farce. That’s very hard to get right, and have a wide appeal. Your synopsis is amusingly shallow, for example:

    male model hunk crazy about oppressed average looking older woman but romance ruined by her vicious psychotic brother

    That was a very moving subplot where the director transitioned from what seemed like a wish-fulfillment movie romance into a heartrending meditation on familial love and self-sacrifice.

    But again, not really a cult classic. It was a mainstream success and its popularity has endured.

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    @AnotherGuessModel

    The movie was well done but her brother was a vicious sociopath who used and manipulated her, destroying her chance at happiness in favor of serving him forever. You find that “moving”? Talk about amusingly shallow, I found it heartrending but also cruel, tragic and infuriating. The film was an exhibition of a succession of frankly pitiable characters, I don’t expect everybody to be a Randian hero, but I have to wonder about the director after a certain point.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel

    , @James Kabala
    @AnotherGuessModel

    I think this probably comes closest of the films mentioned in this thread to a being a genuine cult classic for women. For U.S. box office it did OK, but it ranked below or barely above a number of films that few would rewatch today:

    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2003&p=.htm

    (Granted it was a British film and may have done better there.)

    The reviews were mixed also. A few years ago the critic Christopher Orr humorously recounted his shock that the film was considered a classic by some:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/12/-em-love-actually-em-is-the-least-romantic-film-of-all-time/282091/

  154. @Buffalo Joe
    For me a classic movie is one I enjoy seeing at any random time. If Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" was on this afternoon, I would watch it, same with Fellini's "La Strada", Hitchcock's "Rear Window" and more recently Ritchie's "Snatch" ( the movie, not his ex-wife's naughty bits.) There are lots of movies that critics have proclaimed instant classics, worthy of cult devotion, that I don't care for,those include almost all of Tarantino's works.

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Snatch is hilarious. Brad Pitt is astonishing.

  155. http://bigthink.com/videos/steven-pinker-on-artificial-intelligence-apocalypse

    Pinker believes an alpha male thinking pattern is at the root of our AI fears, and that it is misguided. Something can be highly intelligent and not have malevolent intentions to overthrow and dominate, Pinker says, it’s called women..

  156. Abe says: • Website

    I think instead of ROMY & MICHELLE you’re really thinking of CLUELESS? I never saw more than bits and pieces of CLUELESS, but the big talking point at the time was that this was a brilliant reimaginaion of Jane Austen (forgot which novel exactly, though). Alicia Silverstone became a very big deal for half of the 90’s on the strength of this one movie alone, but of course that could have just been the quid pro quo payback from the hype machine of whichever producer she was ‘associated’ with at the time, if it wasn’t Weinstein.

    Overall, just want to second, third, and fourth a lot of the comments here. Based on my wife’s tastes (and basically I am so busy with work, chores, chaueferring the kids, etc. that I don’t have time to watch TV on my own anymore, and everything I see now is a a couples/relationship-building exercise) women don’t do old movies, let alone obscure/weird-o old movies!- outside of a very few culturally-lauded ones that are still generally popular and glamorous. For example, GONE WITH THE WIND or WIZARD OF OZ.

    Men definitely are more nostalgic (I’ve learned not to reminisce too much in front of the wife, as too many memories are still too loaded with negative emotional juju), but also women strongly gravitate to novelty/popularness, so I joke to myself that watching new movies with them is basically watching the same old movie just with whoever are America’s rom-com sweethearts at the moment (Julia Roberts -> Sandra Bullock -> Jennifer Lopez -> Anne Hathaway -> Emma Stone) in the lead roles. Which I guess explains why they like re-done Shakespeare/Austen flicks so much.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Abe

    Silerstone was a 15-year old who just played the lead in The Crush when Aerosmith's video director saw the film and offered her the lead in a video for one of their songs. She ended up doing three of their videos, along with the equally young and hot Liv Tyler. Clueless director Amy Heckerling loved her in the Aerosmith videos and offered her the role of Cher Horowitz.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Autochthon
    @Abe


    [W]atching new movies with [females] is basically watching the same old movie just with whoever are America’s rom-com sweethearts at the moment (Julia Roberts → Sandra Bullock → Jennifer Lopez → Anne Hathaway → Emma Stone...) in the leading roles.
     
    Exactly.. Females rarely innovate; they demand consistency, stability, security, repetition, predictability, etc. They like variety, but only as variations on a theme. ("Ohh, this hunk has blue eyes....")

    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/h57w3x/stand-up-jennifer-aniston-movies

  157. @Forbes
    @ScarletNumber

    Ever been to a check-out aisle in an American grocery or drug store, or to a newsstand? Nearly every remaining print magazine is about pop culture targeted at women.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ScarletNumber

    Killing time in the drug store at the magazine rack, it struck me that the magazines that are prospering are the ones where the main attractions were always the ads: e.g., Vogue and other fashion magazines. The latest issue of Vogue is 444 pages. In contrast, the magazines where the content was the attraction, such as Time, have shrunk away to husks of themselves.

    Online remains strikingly poor at delivering ads, even though that’s where all the money is. It’s one of the weirder facts of the Internet age.

    • Replies: @3g4me
    @Steve Sailer

    @153 Steve Sailer: "Online remains strikingly poor at delivering ads, even though that’s where all the money is. It’s one of the weirder facts of the Internet age."

    I don't know if there's a particular algorithm for determining which ads one is subjected to when playing online games - when I'm bored or weary unto death of all the bad news in the world, I sometimes retreat to playing Freecell online, where everything is neat and orderly and ends up in the right place. Since I don't pay for this I get force-fed ads every so often. Lately they've all been in Spanish and for Chevy. Earlier they had some of the same ads in English. The English versions carefully toted up the pokemon points - always a Negro or two and/or Oriental or Hispanic among the "real people" featured. The Spanish versions never feature any Negroes or Orientals - just Whites and Hispanics of various degrees of mixed Indian/European origin.

    The other English ads (not for Chevy) have all featured diversity and miscegenation to one degree or another. I get up for the 2 minute ads and use the bathroom, or put the laundry in the dryer, and then resume playing Freecell.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  158. Tangentially on-topic:

    Someone compiled movies “liked” more by men vs. women on IMBD

    Women’s top ten include: Harry Potter x4, Pride & Prejudice, Frozen Wonder Woman, Tangled, Hidden Figures, and Brokeback Mountain

    Men’s top ten include: For a Few Dollars More, Paths of Glory, Das Boot, Raging Bull, Dangal, Rashomon, Unforgiven, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Once Upon a Time in the West, and The Thing.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Benjaminl

    The most popular movies on IMDB tend to be guy movies that girls also say they like: Shawshank Redemption, Dark Knight, etc.

    In general, girl movies tend to have cooties to the guys who feel it's important to vote on IMDB.

    , @anonymous
    @Benjaminl

    The '51 Howard Hawks version of "The Thing" was better tho' the John Carpenter version had the better soundtrack.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    , @Michelle
    @Benjaminl

    Haven't seen many of the films on the female list. I love all the films on the male list except for Platoon, which I only saw once. It was good, but I didn't want to watch it over and over again like I did most of the others on the list. I liked Boys in Company C better. I don't know, or haven't met many men who are that complicated when it comes to movies and many men hate subtitles. They like a good war movie but in English. My dad took us to see Samurai movies when I was a kid, so I got used to them early.

  159. @Benjaminl
    Tangentially on-topic:

    Someone compiled movies "liked" more by men vs. women on IMBD

    https://twitter.com/untoinfinity/status/972644704809562112

    Women's top ten include: Harry Potter x4, Pride & Prejudice, Frozen Wonder Woman, Tangled, Hidden Figures, and Brokeback Mountain

    Men's top ten include: For a Few Dollars More, Paths of Glory, Das Boot, Raging Bull, Dangal, Rashomon, Unforgiven, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Once Upon a Time in the West, and The Thing.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous, @Michelle

    The most popular movies on IMDB tend to be guy movies that girls also say they like: Shawshank Redemption, Dark Knight, etc.

    In general, girl movies tend to have cooties to the guys who feel it’s important to vote on IMDB.

  160. @whorefinder
    @TGGP

    Pride and Prejudice is helped because it's made into a well-made movie every ten years.

    Plus, like most female movies, the theme of Pride and Prejudice's film adaptations is that a free-spirited young woman helps a repressed, alpha male open up his feelz for her. That's the same theme as 50 Shades of Gray and Pretty Woman and any female-centered romantic movie.

    Few people these days realize that Pride and Prejudice was written as a half-satire of the romantic novels of Austen's day. Austen was a very formal kind of woman who disapproved of impropriety; for example, she was not above criticizing the heir to the throne for his debaucherous behavior. But nowadays we have this image that Austen as all about breaking propriety and free spiritedness, a vie Austen would have found scandalous.

    In short: if you're a fiction writer, don't write in a sarcastic tone. Future generations might not be smart enough (or willing) to note your tone. Satire swims well in the milieu of its times, but doesn't transfer well into future oceans.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Intelligent Dasein

    But nowadays we have this image that Austen as all about breaking propriety and free spiritedness, a vie Austen would have found scandalous.

    I don’t know where anybody got that from. I can’t read Jane Austen without taking her completely seriously. There is a real grayness to her novels, a darkness, a sort of enveloping fog that completely blocks any bright ray of bathos from penetrating through. She gives the impression that England is vast; both spatial and social distances are immense and imposing. The bustling city of London—tellingly referred to simply as “town” by her aristocratic characters—is something these country gentlemen look upon with incomprehension and contempt. The regard their visits to “town” as a sort of necessary evil and are always anxious to return to their freedoms and privileges in the country. This world is shrouded in a permanent Hiraethwhich breathes the overcast and gloom of the English skies, the towering majesty of her estates, the felt pulse of settled social customs. This is what I love about her.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Intelligent Dasein

    True, she is a very serious writer, a moralist & I highly appreciate her. Jane in movies is almost a parody of herself. Just, perhaps due to temperamental difference, I don't like her (admire- yes); my objection would be along Charlotte Bronte's lines:


    Anything like warmth or enthusiasm—anything energetic, poignant, heart-felt is utterly out of place in commending these works: all such demonstration the authoress would have met with a well-bred sneer, would have calmly scorned as outré and extravagant. She does her business of delineating the surface of the lives of genteel English people curiously well. There is a Chinese fidelity, a miniature delicacy in the painting. She ruffles her reader by nothing vehement, disturbs him by nothing profound. The passions are perfectly unknown to her; she rejects even a speaking acquaintance with that stormy sisterhood. Even to the feelings she vouchsafes no more than an occasional graceful but distant recognition—too frequent converse with them would ruffle the smooth elegance of her progress. Her business is not half so much with the human heart as with the human eyes, mouth, hands, and feet. What sees keenly, speaks aptly, moves flexibly, it suits her to study; but what throbs fast and full, though hidden, what the blood rushes through, what is the unseen seat of life and the sentient target of death—this Miss Austen ignores.
     
    That said, Austen's work is stratospheric in comparison to film adaptations.
  161. @Senator Brundlefly
    On average, I don't think women have the same appreciation for irony and subtle quirk that men do. A woman sees Lebowski and would probably think "well this is stupid". I don't know how to explain a joke like "nice marmot" or why it's funny but there's just something inherently fever-dream ridiculous about it that makes me laugh. I'd be curious to see how men and women differ with regards to the type of humor they enjoy. For example, I get the feeling that it's men who appreciate movies like Troll 2 and The Room, movies that were made in all seriousness but are hilarious because they are so poorly made.

    Replies: @Senator Brundlefly, @Bardon Kaldian

    For example, I get the feeling that it’s men who appreciate movies like Troll 2 and The Room, movies that were made in all seriousness but are hilarious because they are so poorly made.

    You got that right.

  162. I’ve got my own cult films :

    Dark Star :

    Searching For the Wrong-eyed Jesus :

    Daughter of Keltoum :

    The Young Poisoner’s Hand Book :

  163. @KM32
    There are plenty of popular, cult-like movies aimed at women, and a lot of them are objectively good. They tend to have romance plots, but that isn't any more objectively good or bad than a crime plot or a horror plot or a humor plot. Here are a few well-done movies that have achieved cult level status with some women.

    Pride and Prejudice (one of about 3 versions)
    Sense and Sensibility
    Shakespeare in Love
    Dirty Dancing
    Pretty Woman
    When Harry Met Sally
    Titanic
    You've Got Mail
    Little Women
    The Princess Bride
    Amelie
    Emma
    The Devil Wears Prada

    Most of these are very good movies. And to the guy who dismissed Jane Austen the writer, you don't really know what you're talking about. Not only are the books very good, but she was extremely important in the history of novel writing, developing a lot of the scene and sequel structure that is the foundation of nearly every novel written.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Okay, but not too many of those movies were ever seen as kind of weird and unpopular.

    Pride and Prejudice is pretty close to, say, Romeo and Juliet as a foundational classic of literature.

    • Replies: @snorlax
    @Steve Sailer

    Can a film qualify as a cult classic once it reaches a certain age, even if it was successful when it was released? Like, 2001: A Space Odyssey, which was the second highest-grossing film of 1968. Or can it be considered a cult classic by virtue of its genre, like Halloween (8th highest-grossing film of 1978), or its dated subject matter, like 3rd highest-grossing film of 1977 Saturday Night Fever?

    Just occurred to me that there's a strong case to be made that SNF, not Star Wars, was the most influential movie released in 1977. "New Wave" and "funk" were pretty much rebranded disco, as is nearly all subsequent pop music. Meanwhile the most recent mega-budget, not based on an existing property sci-fi film that comes to mind is the not at all Star Wars-like Avatar.

  164. @Tyrion 2
    @AnotherGuessModel

    I'm obviously a lot younger than you and although I and a number of male acquaintances like Stand By Me very much, no women I know has even seen it.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel, @Kylie

    You all should remedy that asap and watch it with your girlfriends. Snuggling up on the couch watching a movie like Stand By Me for the first time would be a dream date for me, now and when I was younger.

  165. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    I kid you not I had a young white female (late 20’s) as an orthopedic surgery scheduler that had the Dude’s face tattooed on one of her calves. This was in 2011.

    This gal was a solid 5.

  166. @Lex
    Which movies have the largest disparity when ranked by men and women?

    https://i.imgur.com/yW5T5fI.png

    https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/82iu2z/which_movies_have_the_largest_disparity_when/dvadvnu/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/82iu2z/which_movies_have_the_largest_disparity_when/dvb8mrc/

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-online-movie-ratings-werent-based-almost-entirely-on-what-men-think/

    Which movies do men and women rank similarly (both in the Top 100 and outside of it)?

    https://i.redd.it/plo0pi5rs8k01.png

    https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/82kda7/which_movies_do_men_and_women_rank_similarly_both/

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JMcG

    Thanks.

  167. Is Dark City a cult film, it should be, for men?

    • Replies: @Lugash
    @LondonBob

    It's a cult film for me. Not sure why it didn't get more exposure.

  168. Apropos of nothing in particular, my own favorite cult classic is UHF.

    Other than my sister, I don’t think I’ve met any girls who’ve seen it and I’m sure the only reason she likes it is because of me.

  169. @Benjaminl
    Tangentially on-topic:

    Someone compiled movies "liked" more by men vs. women on IMBD

    https://twitter.com/untoinfinity/status/972644704809562112

    Women's top ten include: Harry Potter x4, Pride & Prejudice, Frozen Wonder Woman, Tangled, Hidden Figures, and Brokeback Mountain

    Men's top ten include: For a Few Dollars More, Paths of Glory, Das Boot, Raging Bull, Dangal, Rashomon, Unforgiven, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Once Upon a Time in the West, and The Thing.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous, @Michelle

    The ’51 Howard Hawks version of “The Thing” was better tho’ the John Carpenter version had the better soundtrack.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @anonymous


    The ’51 Howard Hawks version of “The Thing” was better tho’ the John Carpenter version had the better soundtrack.
     
    Strongly disagree. Carpenters' version was one of the scariest, creepiest movies I've ever seen.
  170. @HEL

    No child will ever smile again until Trump is gone from the White House. Has it been mandatory since November 9, 2016 to insert an assertion of the horribleness of the current moment in all cultural commentary?
     
    Well yes, obviously. Though it's not a new thing, nor limited to this time. It amazes me how regularly retrospective reviews of whatever thing from the 80s have to invoke the grim, oppressive horror and never ending strife that comes with living under a president broadly popular enough to win 49 of 50 states in reelection. Interestingly, this sort of mythmaking never applies to GHWB. I guess losing reelection helps . . .

    Replies: @Manfred Arcane

    It doesn’t stop with the 1980s, either. Every review of anything (particularly sci-fi movies) from the 1950s-early 1960s has to refer to enforced conformity, Joe McCarthy’s monstrous doings, the Civil Rights movement, and the terror of the Bomb. Every review of stuff from the 1930s era has to talk about how it reflects (or deliberately avoids reflecting in order to provide “worried audiences” with a “respite”) the “gathering darkness” of the times; Hitler usually gets mentioned by the third or fourth sentence, with the Depression coming in around the same place.

  171. Women love big drama that captures big conflicts and big experiences, like “Jack’s Obsession” in The Nightmare Before Christmas.

  172. @European-American
    Somewhat related:

    Have women created any cults?

    They certainly follow cults, sometimes long after most men have left them.

    But creating cults... It seems like a stubbornly dumb thing only men would do. No offense intended to any men who might be among the readers of iSteve. Some of my best friends are cults.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @jimmyriddle, @Thea

    Feminism

  173. @cthoms
    Just asked the wife "What comes to mind when you hear the words cult classic?"
    Immediately: "A movie?" (yes, increasing pitch, so not completely sure)
    "What would be an example?"
    Long pause. "Wayne's World?"
    Long pause (getting my laughing under control).
    "What would be a woman's cult classic?"
    Another long pause. "You've Got Mail"
    Understandable. It's the only movie she watches regularly (annually).
    "I was thinking more like "St. Elmo's Fire"
    "Oh yeah, those brat pack movies, you're right, those would be better."

    So yeah, score one for Steve, woman probably don't grok "Cult Classic" as deeply as men.

    Personally I think there actually might be a singular example of the entire phenomenon. A movie that when released caused so much ruckus that the owners (producers) actually attempted to withdraw it. Despite that it still earned out and you can buy a blu-ray of it today. 1979's The Warriors. A movie that most women have never seen and many have never heard of.

    St. Elmo's Fire + cult: 100k
    Sixteen Candles + cult: 316k

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous

    Would “Casablanca” qualify as a cult classic? Just wondering.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous

    To reach "Casablanca" levels of fame, it helps to be both a big hit/big Oscar winner initially _and_ undergo a cult process later: the movie theater next to Harvard made it a custom in the postwar era to play "Casablanca" over and over durng Harvard's Finals Weeks.

  174. @whorefinder
    Women tend to follow the same male stars around their entire career. If a woman gets a jonesing for Male Star X when she's 20 you can bet she'll watch his stuff hen she's 30, 40, 50, and beyond. That;s the kind of nostalgia they like.

    I knew a girl around 20 who got a massive crush on Richard Gere due to Pretty Woman. Fast forward to 40 and she still will see anything he's in (like Romy and Michelle were). Younger chicks are like that with Zac Effron or that Harry Potter kid or what have you.

    It seems once a woman gets hit with a "star gaze" on a male celebrity they're hooked for life, unless they meet said male celeb IRL and spend time with him and see he's not one of his roles. Hugh Grant in Music and Lyrics illustrated this well: he plays a washed up 80's pop star who goes on nostalgia tours so he can sleep with the same female fans who were screaming in his audience at 18 but had turned 35 or 45 and, yet, still liked his old ass in leather pants. Then he starts hanging out with one of the groupies and she gets over him while her sister (Drew Barrymore) ends up falling in love with him

    What gets a lot of women crazy is how quickly a girl can go from "It" girl to forgettable for men. It gets women angry because they hang onto their male crushes as they age. For example, 10 years ago Megan Fox was the hottest number in America with legions of male admirers. Nowadays she couldn't sell a sitcom, even if it was written by Mike Judge and Seth MacFarlane and is reduced to playing MILFy-but-unbilled roles in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies.

    Women get mad at this, but really they're just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.

    Certain films are nostalgic for women, but they either involve early childhood memories (e.g. Wizard of Oz) or hit movies everyone saw (9 1/2 weeks, The Way We Were). Women are much more natural at following the pack on movies in general, but much more cult like in following an individual male star's career, groupie-like following an alpha male.

    Replies: @snorlax, @ScarletNumber

    Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.

    Our First Lady’s the exception that proves the rule; you won’t find many women who look that stunning* at 47, or any age.

    Ironically, her husband’s the other exception; he aged decently until around the time he hit 60 in 2006, but he has not fared well at all since then.

    Anyway, if Stormy Daniels’ got Melania needing a shoulder to cry on, she’s welcome any time.

    *Stunning in the Alexandra Daddario (NSFW – top half nudity – link) sense, not the Caitlyn Jenner sense.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @snorlax

    "Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk."

    Replies: @Rosie

    , @Autochthon
    @snorlax

    I'm cackling because your linked clip also includes, immediately below D'Addario, a similar video of pornstar "Busty Buffy" removing her shirt. Seeing the two simultaneously is like watching the local hotshot do a backflip and pause to be adulated just as Nick Goepper drops in behind him....

    D'Addario is stunning, of course, and one could argue the other's proportions cross the line into being cartoonish or grotesque...yet they move....

    , @ScarletNumber
    @snorlax

    I don't find the first lady to be attractive at all.

  175. “Pretty Woman” is a cult classic for chicks. They’ve all seen it, they all know the lines, they use references to it to communicate.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Dave from Oz

    "Pretty Woman" made $178 million at the domestic box office back in 1990, so >$300 million in today's money.

  176. @anonymous
    @cthoms

    Would "Casablanca" qualify as a cult classic? Just wondering.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    To reach “Casablanca” levels of fame, it helps to be both a big hit/big Oscar winner initially _and_ undergo a cult process later: the movie theater next to Harvard made it a custom in the postwar era to play “Casablanca” over and over durng Harvard’s Finals Weeks.

  177. @Dave from Oz
    "Pretty Woman" is a cult classic for chicks. They've all seen it, they all know the lines, they use references to it to communicate.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    “Pretty Woman” made $178 million at the domestic box office back in 1990, so >$300 million in today’s money.

  178. @Kylie
    @Michelle

    Someone once asked me what I did the previous evening. I said in all seriousness, "My husband and I had such a romantic night. First we had dinner, then we watched 'Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer.'"

    You have some good movies on your list. If you like dark, have you seen "Dogtooth" or "Magical Girl"? Another good one is "Goddess of Earth". I agree that the Koreans make some wonderful movies. I recommend "Epitaph" (gorgeous cinematography), "Memories of Murder", "The Crescent Moon" and "Poetry".

    ETA: I really hated "Once Were Warriors".

    Replies: @Michelle

    I loved Dog Tooth and really liked Killing of a Sacred Deer by the same director, though not as much. I am definitely going to watch the other movies you listed. Have you seen Animal Kingdom and the Snowtown Murders?

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @Michelle

    I saw and liked the Snowtown Murders. Will check out the others you mentioned. Another interesting Aussie film is Noise. Since you like intense crime movies, I recommend Big Bad Wolves which also benefits from having a wonderfully brooding score.

    Dogtooth was so good but even the few movie buffs I know haven't seeen it. I don't get that at all. It's brilliant in every way.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel, @Autochthon, @Twodees Partain

  179. @Anon
    Women love THE NOTEBOOK.

    Me?

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    AGNES OF GOD had a cult following. Dumb movie.

    I love MYSTIC PIZZA.

    Didn't see STEEL MAGNOLIAS and PRETTY WOMAN, big hit with women. Didn't see TERMS OF ENDEARMENT either.

    CARRIE, that's a classic.

    PIANO was supposed to be a big feminist movie. It was terrible, and it's all forgotten.

    I'VE HEARD THE MERMAIDS SINGING was a cult movie for a time. Awful crap.

    LEGEND OF BILLIE JEAN might have become a cult classic. Interesting setup but bad execution.

    Jaglom's DEJA VU has some big fans among women.

    I've noticed INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE is bigger among women.

    WELCOME HOME ROXY CARMICHAEL was a fav among girls.

    LOVE STORY... Maybe women liked it more but I think plenty of men loved it too.

    Possible cult titles: CARRIE, STEPFORD WIVES, TAMING OF THE SHREW, GONE WITH THE WIND, BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S, METROPOLITAN, IMITATION OF LIFE, WHATEVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE, BONNIE AND CLYDE, PERSONA, any version of CARMEN story, SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS, ASHES OF TIME, SWEPT AWAY, JULES AND JIM, MCCABE AND MRS MILLER, BIRDS, REBECCA, EARRINGS OF MADAME DE, ASH WEDNESDAY, TWO WOMEN, SHEILA LEVINE IS DEAD AND LIVING IN NY, DEAD RINGERS, AUNTIE MAME, AFRICAN QUEEN, LOLITA, TIE ME UP TIE ME DOWN, INSIDE DAISY CLOVER, ANNE OF A 1000 DAYS, BAREFOOT IN THE PARK, ROSEMARY'S BABY, MAKIOKA SISTERS, BLUE VELVET, MEET ME IN ST LOUIS, MOMMIE DEAREST, SUNSET BOULEVARD, NINOTCHKA, BRINGING UP BABY, HANA AND ALICE, CHILLY SCENES OF WINTER, CHINATOWN, LA STRADA, STORY OF ADELE H., CELINE AND JULIE GO BOATING, HEATHERS, EYES OF LAURA MARS.

    I think one of the problems with 'nostalgia' for women is that their culture and attitudes have changed so much more than men's.

    Men are still men, into Guy stuff. The dude is hippie but also eternal. What Kael called the 'shaggy man'. He's a rebel and free spirit. There are characters like that in John Ford movies and before.

    In contrast, women's attitudes have changed so much over the yrs and their minds are so politicized that many girls today cannot relate to something like MILDRED PIERCE which I love.

    TWILIGHT was surprising because it was 'classic' in many ways but still was a hit with today's girls. May not good but well-made at least.

    In the age of LENA DUNHAM and MILEY CYRUS, can girls relate to older movies when women had some dignity or style, like Patricia Neal in THE FOUNTAINHEAD?

    Replies: @Autochthon

    Gone with the Wind, The African Queen, and Meet Me in St. Louis?! Like so many else contributing to this exchange, you’ve completely lost the plot to propose films such as these as so-called “cult classics” or candidates for that categorisation.

    These kinds of films are no more cult classics than is Shaun White an underdog athlete or is Gavin Newsome a dark horse candidate to become the governor of Mexinchifornia.

    Words have meanings, friends.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Autochthon

    There are two meanings to 'cult films'.

    Those weird underground or indie movies made that attract a specialized obsessive audience.

    DONNIE DARKO. Not my fav but I can see how some obsess over it.

    But there is another meaning to 'cult film'. A film, even a big Hollywood one, that attracts a devoted cult following.

    GANDHI isn't a cult film but CASABLANCA and SEARCHERS can count as cult films.
    Also 2001 A SPACE ODYSSEY and THE SHINING. Their fans obsess over them.

    In the book about Cult movies, you will see a bunch of titles that were mainstream Hollywood. But they were loved to death by a diehard fans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Movies_(book)

    A strange case was HAROLD AND MAUDE. Hollywood made it as a mainstream movie. What were they thinking? But it obviously failed at the box office because it was too weird.. but then developed a huge cult following. I think it played straight at one theater for 3 yrs.

    One thing for sure, a real cult film depends on span of audience reaction. A film director can try to make a cult film but it may gain no traction with fans who won't become diehard fans. SHOCK TREATMENT was made as a cult film but most fans of ROCKY HORROR ignored it. (Sad to say, the freakery of ROCKY HORROR has now become mainstream.)

    But Hollywood can make a big movie that people ignore... but becomes a cult obsession by diehard fans.... like BLADE RUNNER.

    And then, there are movies that were hits in their time... but refused to go away like most classics because every generation produces its own fans for that work. WIZARD OF OZ is such a movie.

    There are some movies that I think deserve Cult status but haven't gained such... yet. WOLFEN is nearly as good as BLADE RUNNER with similar themes.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  180. @Intelligent Dasein
    @whorefinder


    But nowadays we have this image that Austen as all about breaking propriety and free spiritedness, a vie Austen would have found scandalous.
     
    I don't know where anybody got that from. I can't read Jane Austen without taking her completely seriously. There is a real grayness to her novels, a darkness, a sort of enveloping fog that completely blocks any bright ray of bathos from penetrating through. She gives the impression that England is vast; both spatial and social distances are immense and imposing. The bustling city of London---tellingly referred to simply as "town" by her aristocratic characters---is something these country gentlemen look upon with incomprehension and contempt. The regard their visits to "town" as a sort of necessary evil and are always anxious to return to their freedoms and privileges in the country. This world is shrouded in a permanent Hiraethwhich breathes the overcast and gloom of the English skies, the towering majesty of her estates, the felt pulse of settled social customs. This is what I love about her.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    True, she is a very serious writer, a moralist & I highly appreciate her. Jane in movies is almost a parody of herself. Just, perhaps due to temperamental difference, I don’t like her (admire- yes); my objection would be along Charlotte Bronte’s lines:

    Anything like warmth or enthusiasm—anything energetic, poignant, heart-felt is utterly out of place in commending these works: all such demonstration the authoress would have met with a well-bred sneer, would have calmly scorned as outré and extravagant. She does her business of delineating the surface of the lives of genteel English people curiously well. There is a Chinese fidelity, a miniature delicacy in the painting. She ruffles her reader by nothing vehement, disturbs him by nothing profound. The passions are perfectly unknown to her; she rejects even a speaking acquaintance with that stormy sisterhood. Even to the feelings she vouchsafes no more than an occasional graceful but distant recognition—too frequent converse with them would ruffle the smooth elegance of her progress. Her business is not half so much with the human heart as with the human eyes, mouth, hands, and feet. What sees keenly, speaks aptly, moves flexibly, it suits her to study; but what throbs fast and full, though hidden, what the blood rushes through, what is the unseen seat of life and the sentient target of death—this Miss Austen ignores.

    That said, Austen’s work is stratospheric in comparison to film adaptations.

  181. @Steve Sailer
    @cthoms

    "The Warriors," an ultra-stylized gang movie, is inspired by Xenophon's Anabasis, right?

    It made $22 million at the box office. For a 1979 release, that's pretty good, so it wasn't overlooked initially.

    Probably having some High Culture links, like The Warriors has (Xenophon was Socrates' middle-brow protege), helps male cult movies.

    Replies: @Autochthon

    A lot more of this goes on than most people realise. Setting aside the language and costume, any given episode of Three’s Company would have been entirely at home in the Dionysia of antient Greece, and even more so in the comedia dell’arte.

    Yet most people don’t even appreciate the even more overtly derivative things like The Lion King or Clueless.

  182. @AnotherGuessModel
    @Alfa158

    It's a very charming and cohesive ensemble movie, and it switches between different moods seamlessly, from drama to romantic comedy to sex farce. That's very hard to get right, and have a wide appeal. Your synopsis is amusingly shallow, for example:


    male model hunk crazy about oppressed average looking older woman but romance ruined by her vicious psychotic brother
     
    That was a very moving subplot where the director transitioned from what seemed like a wish-fulfillment movie romance into a heartrending meditation on familial love and self-sacrifice.

    But again, not really a cult classic. It was a mainstream success and its popularity has endured.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @James Kabala

    The movie was well done but her brother was a vicious sociopath who used and manipulated her, destroying her chance at happiness in favor of serving him forever. You find that “moving”? Talk about amusingly shallow, I found it heartrending but also cruel, tragic and infuriating. The film was an exhibition of a succession of frankly pitiable characters, I don’t expect everybody to be a Randian hero, but I have to wonder about the director after a certain point.

    • Replies: @AnotherGuessModel
    @Alfa158

    It's been a while since I last saw the movie, but I don't remember her brother as abusive, certainly not sociopathic. I have a friend with a mentally ill sibling who disrupts and has probably impeded his personal life, but never out of malice. Maybe that distorted my interpretation of the brother. You may have found the story cruel and infuriating because you are projecting how you would feel in a situation like that. Don't take that as judgment; I wouldn't handle it well either. But I wasn't as tested by the subplot and rest of the movie as you were. I agree that the characters were pitiable in a way, but a great deal of our life choices and circumstances surrounding love are pitiable.

  183. So, what makes a film a cult classic instead of just a classic?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Twodees Partain

    People (99% male) feel the urge to argue in favor of it.

    , @Michelle
    @Twodees Partain

    Cult Classics do not do well at the Box Office or have wide popular appeal to average people but, by word of mouth, their popularity spreads and mostly nerds watch and rewatch them many times. Session 9, for instance. I and my friends passed that movie around and around until it dissappeared.

  184. @Twodees Partain
    So, what makes a film a cult classic instead of just a classic?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Michelle

    People (99% male) feel the urge to argue in favor of it.

  185. @Benjaminl
    Tangentially on-topic:

    Someone compiled movies "liked" more by men vs. women on IMBD

    https://twitter.com/untoinfinity/status/972644704809562112

    Women's top ten include: Harry Potter x4, Pride & Prejudice, Frozen Wonder Woman, Tangled, Hidden Figures, and Brokeback Mountain

    Men's top ten include: For a Few Dollars More, Paths of Glory, Das Boot, Raging Bull, Dangal, Rashomon, Unforgiven, The Bridge on the River Kwai, Once Upon a Time in the West, and The Thing.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous, @Michelle

    Haven’t seen many of the films on the female list. I love all the films on the male list except for Platoon, which I only saw once. It was good, but I didn’t want to watch it over and over again like I did most of the others on the list. I liked Boys in Company C better. I don’t know, or haven’t met many men who are that complicated when it comes to movies and many men hate subtitles. They like a good war movie but in English. My dad took us to see Samurai movies when I was a kid, so I got used to them early.

  186. @snorlax
    @whorefinder


    Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.
     
    Our First Lady's the exception that proves the rule; you won't find many women who look that stunning* at 47, or any age.

    Ironically, her husband's the other exception; he aged decently until around the time he hit 60 in 2006, but he has not fared well at all since then.

    Anyway, if Stormy Daniels' got Melania needing a shoulder to cry on, she's welcome any time.

    *Stunning in the Alexandra Daddario (NSFW - top half nudity - link) sense, not the Caitlyn Jenner sense.

    Replies: @Rosie, @Autochthon, @ScarletNumber

    “Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.”

    • Replies: @Rosie
    @Rosie

    Any man who believes this is himself in denial. Women marry older men for $$$, not because they've been swept off their feet.

    Replies: @whorefinder

  187. If we’re talking about cult movies has anyone mentioned The Boondock Saints?

  188. @snorlax
    @whorefinder


    Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.
     
    Our First Lady's the exception that proves the rule; you won't find many women who look that stunning* at 47, or any age.

    Ironically, her husband's the other exception; he aged decently until around the time he hit 60 in 2006, but he has not fared well at all since then.

    Anyway, if Stormy Daniels' got Melania needing a shoulder to cry on, she's welcome any time.

    *Stunning in the Alexandra Daddario (NSFW - top half nudity - link) sense, not the Caitlyn Jenner sense.

    Replies: @Rosie, @Autochthon, @ScarletNumber

    I’m cackling because your linked clip also includes, immediately below D’Addario, a similar video of pornstar “Busty Buffy” removing her shirt. Seeing the two simultaneously is like watching the local hotshot do a backflip and pause to be adulated just as Nick Goepper drops in behind him….

    D’Addario is stunning, of course, and one could argue the other’s proportions cross the line into being cartoonish or grotesque…yet they move….

  189. @Wilbur Hassenfus
    In general, women are more conventional than men.

    What makes a cult movie a cult movie? They’re weird. Even very conventional men have a greater appreciation for the weird than most women do. Are there any movies some women quote, like some men quote “Strangelove”, “Spinal Tap”, and the like?

    “What knockers!”

    Counterpoint: Literally every girl I slept with in college (late 80s) was a fan of the movie “Blue Velvet”. I remembered this recently when the current one (ten years younger than me) mentioned loving it (she liked “Lebowski” btw). I think the same director did “Twin Peaks”, one of the silliest, most somnolent messes ever broadcast, in *my* personal opinion. But the clove-cigarette girls find something fascinating there that I don’t.

    Replies: @The preferred nomenclature is..., @Stan Adams

    I knew a couple of goody too shoes gals in the late 80’s who loved Blue Velvet. A group of us watched it all the time.

  190. @Twodees Partain
    So, what makes a film a cult classic instead of just a classic?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Michelle

    Cult Classics do not do well at the Box Office or have wide popular appeal to average people but, by word of mouth, their popularity spreads and mostly nerds watch and rewatch them many times. Session 9, for instance. I and my friends passed that movie around and around until it dissappeared.

  191. @Rosie
    @snorlax

    "Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk."

    Replies: @Rosie

    Any man who believes this is himself in denial. Women marry older men for $$$, not because they’ve been swept off their feet.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @Rosie

    ROFL. Typical female denialism.

    Sean Connery, George Clooney, Richard Gere, Denzel Washington---all older gents, all could still have multiple 20 year old gfs. Heck, Patrick Stewart is currently with a chick in her 30s whom he started banging in her 20s.

    Men have a much longer sexual attractiveness timeline than women, honey. Deal with it.

    Replies: @Autochthon

  192. It seems people are confusing “movies that women like” with “cult films that women like”. At least some number of women. Because not all men like cult films, either.

    In the latter category:

    –Blade Runner is big with women who like science fiction.
    –Rocky Horror Picture Show is, as mentioned, popular with women.
    –Harold and Maude is popular with women
    –Heathers–how is it no one mentioned this? Or maybe I missed it.
    –Fight Club
    –Pulp Fiction (although I’m not sure this is a cult film)
    –Dazed and Confused
    –Donnie Darko
    –Monty Python and the Holy Grail
    –Office Space
    –Princess Bride

    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    @education realist

    Right. I think the more salient division isn't between men and women so much as nerds and non-nerds, and most nerds happen to be men.

    The hot quarterback of Midwestern High School is not sitting around tonight with the offensive line debating the merits of Evil Dead versus Evil Dead 2. The guys whose asses get beat by the offensive line are doing that. Neither are the cheerleaders discussing the merits of Evil Dead versus Evil Dead 2 . They're banging the offensive line. The girls whose looks get trashed by the cheerleaders are, unlike the male nerds, a mixed bag. Some of them might be having the Evil Dead debate (probably with the male nerds), but others are trying real hard to look pretty for the morning, others are making out with a fellow player from the softball team, while others are practicing twirling their flags for color guard.

  193. @Steve Sailer
    @KM32

    Okay, but not too many of those movies were ever seen as kind of weird and unpopular.

    Pride and Prejudice is pretty close to, say, Romeo and Juliet as a foundational classic of literature.

    Replies: @snorlax

    Can a film qualify as a cult classic once it reaches a certain age, even if it was successful when it was released? Like, 2001: A Space Odyssey, which was the second highest-grossing film of 1968. Or can it be considered a cult classic by virtue of its genre, like Halloween (8th highest-grossing film of 1978), or its dated subject matter, like 3rd highest-grossing film of 1977 Saturday Night Fever?

    Just occurred to me that there’s a strong case to be made that SNF, not Star Wars, was the most influential movie released in 1977. “New Wave” and “funk” were pretty much rebranded disco, as is nearly all subsequent pop music. Meanwhile the most recent mega-budget, not based on an existing property sci-fi film that comes to mind is the not at all Star Wars-like Avatar.

  194. @Michelle
    @Kylie

    I loved Dog Tooth and really liked Killing of a Sacred Deer by the same director, though not as much. I am definitely going to watch the other movies you listed. Have you seen Animal Kingdom and the Snowtown Murders?

    Replies: @Kylie

    I saw and liked the Snowtown Murders. Will check out the others you mentioned. Another interesting Aussie film is Noise. Since you like intense crime movies, I recommend Big Bad Wolves which also benefits from having a wonderfully brooding score.

    Dogtooth was so good but even the few movie buffs I know haven’t seeen it. I don’t get that at all. It’s brilliant in every way.

    • Replies: @AnotherGuessModel
    @Kylie

    Dogtooth isn't obscure as far as foreign films go, it was nominated for Best Foreign Language movie, and Lanthimos has gone on to make acclaimed English-language movies with big-name actors. His actress wife just landed a major perfume campaign. He's not for me, but if you find Dogtooth brilliant, you'll like that whole Greek Weird Wave that he is at the forefront of. I'm not sure why Lanthimos and others deny that their work is part of an artistic movement, but they have a similar, distinctive style.

    Replies: @Kylie

    , @Autochthon
    @Kylie

    Check out The Square if you've not already and you dig gritty Australian films about crime.

    Replies: @Kylie

    , @Twodees Partain
    @Kylie

    Dogtooth? I couldn't even watch the trailer all the way through.

  195. great post–Lebowski was a funny buddy film (Buscemi, Goodman and Bridges–the 3 stooges)

  196. @Tyrion 2
    @AnotherGuessModel

    I'm obviously a lot younger than you and although I and a number of male acquaintances like Stand By Me very much, no women I know has even seen it.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel, @Kylie

    You mean Stand by Me, the 1986 movie based on a Stephen King story? I saw it and liked it.

  197. @anonymous
    @Benjaminl

    The '51 Howard Hawks version of "The Thing" was better tho' the John Carpenter version had the better soundtrack.

    Replies: @Mr. Anon

    The ’51 Howard Hawks version of “The Thing” was better tho’ the John Carpenter version had the better soundtrack.

    Strongly disagree. Carpenters’ version was one of the scariest, creepiest movies I’ve ever seen.

  198. @Achmed E. Newman
    How come you never mention Raising Arizona, Steve? That's about my favorite. Maybe you've got to be a redneck to appreciate it. I'm also wondering why these 2 brother/directors are so into kidnappings in their movies. Maybe it's just the 2 movies.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Mr. Anon

    Best kidnapping movie I’ve ever seen and, being a somewhat obscure foreign movie probably could be called a cult movie, was High and Low by Kurosawa. Well worth seeing.

    High and Low

  199. @Lex
    Which movies have the largest disparity when ranked by men and women?

    https://i.imgur.com/yW5T5fI.png

    https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/82iu2z/which_movies_have_the_largest_disparity_when/dvadvnu/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/82iu2z/which_movies_have_the_largest_disparity_when/dvb8mrc/

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-if-online-movie-ratings-werent-based-almost-entirely-on-what-men-think/

    Which movies do men and women rank similarly (both in the Top 100 and outside of it)?

    https://i.redd.it/plo0pi5rs8k01.png

    https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/82kda7/which_movies_do_men_and_women_rank_similarly_both/

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @JMcG

    How did I forget The Sound of Music? My wife will drop everything if that comes on.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    @JMcG

    Christopher Plummer (who played the father) had long derided the film, saying at best it was a silly little diversion and he could never understand its broad appeal that lasted through the decades. He never appeared at any "reunion" events of the cast until something like the 50th, when Julie Andrews and the rights holders coaxed him into appearing and behaving much more avuncularly and cute-old-man like.

    Plummer's role made him many young girls first "older man" crushes, as I have been reliably told by more than one female acquaintance. His "Edelweiss" duet with his on-screen daughter remains for many women a highlight of their memories of the film, as it apparently brings up a whole host of daddy-complex issues that a surprising large number of women apparently have:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bL2BCiFkTk

    But it's a great song and scene, nonetheless.

  200. @Mr. Blank
    Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    Replies: @McSwag, @TGGP, @whorefinder, @Percy Gryce, @Jimi, @Stan Adams, @Rotten

    ABBA and cult films are not mutually exclusive.

    This Mommie Dearest mashup was a big hit at many gay clubs:

  201. @hamont
    Idiocracy is similarly a cult film that is liked by an overwhelmingly male demographic.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The preferred nomenclature is...

    Yes.

    And King of the Hill. I know it is not a movie. Still it was awesome.

  202. @Kylie
    @Michelle

    I saw and liked the Snowtown Murders. Will check out the others you mentioned. Another interesting Aussie film is Noise. Since you like intense crime movies, I recommend Big Bad Wolves which also benefits from having a wonderfully brooding score.

    Dogtooth was so good but even the few movie buffs I know haven't seeen it. I don't get that at all. It's brilliant in every way.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel, @Autochthon, @Twodees Partain

    Dogtooth isn’t obscure as far as foreign films go, it was nominated for Best Foreign Language movie, and Lanthimos has gone on to make acclaimed English-language movies with big-name actors. His actress wife just landed a major perfume campaign. He’s not for me, but if you find Dogtooth brilliant, you’ll like that whole Greek Weird Wave that he is at the forefront of. I’m not sure why Lanthimos and others deny that their work is part of an artistic movement, but they have a similar, distinctive style.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @AnotherGuessModel

    I know Dogtooth was widely acclaimed. That's why I'm so puzzled that so few of the people I know who like movies have seen it.

  203. @Hapalong Cassidy
    This movie, and “Raising Arizona” are the two Coen Brothers movies I don’t care for at all. One aspect of Lebowski I really really didn’t care for was the gratuitous insertion of Nazis in tandem with John Goodman’s Jewish avenger-type character. Or maybe I’m just remembering that part wrong. I don’t care because I’m not watching it again.

    Replies: @al gore rhythms, @MEH 0910

    They weren’t Nazis, they were Nihilists–they believed in Nothing.

    Of course, you may regard that as worse rather than better. Say what you want about the tenents of National Socialism; at least it’s an ethos.

  204. anon • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    @AnotherGuessModel

    The distinction between sleeper hit and cult movie is sort of real but also kind of blurry. Presumably a sleeper hit is a movie made without high expectations but that quickly takes off with the public upon release.

    Another distinction I'd point out is that male cult movies tend to be ones that guys try to _argue_ other guys into liking by use of rational arguments. I think most women consider that kind of stupid: e.g., there's no arguing over taste.

    Replies: @anon

    I stumbled upon this when I visited Mackinac Island for a conference (and golfing) about 5 years ago … 1980’s Somewhere in Time with Jane Seymour and Christopher Reeves has a very weird cult that worships it. People drop five grand to dress up and … I don’t really know … pretend they’re in the movie? It was wild. The movie was shot at the island’s “Grand” Hotel, a 100 some years old wooden hotel. The island has no cars. The hotel’s golf course “The Jewel” has a neat gimmick — the front and back nine are seperated by a 15 minute horse drawn carriage ride. I had never even heard of this movie until I ended up there by chance. It’s Rocky Horror for nice white ladies.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    A guy who worked for me in Chicago around 1990, he and his wife were really into "Somewhere in Time." I never saw it, but that might be a rare couples cult movie.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Autochthon

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @anon

    I've got a feeling that one has a small cult following for religious reasons. Yes, belief in reincarnation is as religious as anything else, and there aren't many American movies with reincarnation as a story line.

    The best one that I know is Made in Heaven, from 3 decades ago. It may be considered a chick flick, but I don't care, as it's one of my all-time favorites. I included a clip one time here when Tom Petty died, as this movie features cameos from him and a coupla other rock guys (I won't spoil it.)

    2 thumbs up for Made in Heaven, even if you don't wonder about reincarnation.

    Yeah, also, if you find yourself in the upper palm* of Michigan in the summer, take the boat ride from north of Alpena out to the island. It beats the hell out of Disneyland.

  205. @Simon
    I'm not sure whether it qualifies as a chick-flick cult film, but I've always been very fond of "Ghost World" -- funny, charming, touching, with a memorably poignant ending. I've probably watched it a dozen times.

    P.S. I think the Coens' "Raising Arizona" is as funny as "Lebowski," and it has some gloriously trippy camera work.

    Replies: @gutta percha, @James Kabala

    Yeah Ghost World is great. See also Crumb, which explains the origin of a lot of the plot and aesthetic of Ghost World.

  206. @Wilbur Hassenfus
    In general, women are more conventional than men.

    What makes a cult movie a cult movie? They’re weird. Even very conventional men have a greater appreciation for the weird than most women do. Are there any movies some women quote, like some men quote “Strangelove”, “Spinal Tap”, and the like?

    “What knockers!”

    Counterpoint: Literally every girl I slept with in college (late 80s) was a fan of the movie “Blue Velvet”. I remembered this recently when the current one (ten years younger than me) mentioned loving it (she liked “Lebowski” btw). I think the same director did “Twin Peaks”, one of the silliest, most somnolent messes ever broadcast, in *my* personal opinion. But the clove-cigarette girls find something fascinating there that I don’t.

    Replies: @The preferred nomenclature is..., @Stan Adams

    I think the same director did “Twin Peaks”, one of the silliest, most somnolent messes ever broadcast, in *my* personal opinion.

    David Lynch. He did Eraserhead, The Elephant Man, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive.

    He also did (and then disowned) Dune with Kyle MacLachlan and Sting.

    Lynch’s daughter Jennifer did Boxing Helena, one of the silliest movies ever made.

  207. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Autochthon
    @Anon

    Gone with the Wind, The African Queen, and Meet Me in St. Louis?! Like so many else contributing to this exchange, you've completely lost the plot to propose films such as these as so-called "cult classics" or candidates for that categorisation.

    These kinds of films are no more cult classics than is Shaun White an underdog athlete or is Gavin Newsome a dark horse candidate to become the governor of Mexinchifornia.

    Words have meanings, friends.

    Replies: @Anon

    There are two meanings to ‘cult films’.

    Those weird underground or indie movies made that attract a specialized obsessive audience.

    DONNIE DARKO. Not my fav but I can see how some obsess over it.

    But there is another meaning to ‘cult film’. A film, even a big Hollywood one, that attracts a devoted cult following.

    GANDHI isn’t a cult film but CASABLANCA and SEARCHERS can count as cult films.
    Also 2001 A SPACE ODYSSEY and THE SHINING. Their fans obsess over them.

    In the book about Cult movies, you will see a bunch of titles that were mainstream Hollywood. But they were loved to death by a diehard fans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Movies_(book)

    A strange case was HAROLD AND MAUDE. Hollywood made it as a mainstream movie. What were they thinking? But it obviously failed at the box office because it was too weird.. but then developed a huge cult following. I think it played straight at one theater for 3 yrs.

    One thing for sure, a real cult film depends on span of audience reaction. A film director can try to make a cult film but it may gain no traction with fans who won’t become diehard fans. SHOCK TREATMENT was made as a cult film but most fans of ROCKY HORROR ignored it. (Sad to say, the freakery of ROCKY HORROR has now become mainstream.)

    But Hollywood can make a big movie that people ignore… but becomes a cult obsession by diehard fans…. like BLADE RUNNER.

    And then, there are movies that were hits in their time… but refused to go away like most classics because every generation produces its own fans for that work. WIZARD OF OZ is such a movie.

    There are some movies that I think deserve Cult status but haven’t gained such… yet. WOLFEN is nearly as good as BLADE RUNNER with similar themes.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Anon


    A film director can try to make a cult film
     
    If you're consciously trying to make a cult film you will certainly fail.

    Cult films gain their cult status from their fans, not from the film-maker.

    Replies: @Anon

  208. @Achmed E. Newman
    I guess everyone has something that inspires them and it's good to get it again every coupla years or so. (or the movie is just hilarious every time, yeah, Bueller, Blues Brothers, Big Lebowski ). For me, I would not get sick of seeing Patton, Bridge on the River Kwai, and Cool Hand Luke each and every year. The Right Stuff could probably be thrown in there too.

    Here's a good one - try watching the 4 Airport movies in a 3-day rental period. That was the deal from the video store, so you know, it was all or nothing. These are the serious ones (or at least they attempt to be), not the funny Leslie Neilson Airplane series. Man, it was a trip to see how the airport changed, especially the security area, just within the one decade. The movies went from quite believable - the first one with Dean Martin as the Captain- to "sorry, not very likely" ('77) to ridiculous to "I'm returning this one to the store now." George Kennedy was in every single one, but, since you like this sort of thing, Steve, he didn't want to be a "character actor" anymore for the 4th one. He must have insisted "I'm gonna be Captain of the Concorde, or I'm outta here. Good luck finding another cigar-smoking mechanic, bitches."

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    George Kennedy also thought he was too good to star in Airplane! and turned down a role. He learned his lesson in time for The Naked Gun.

  209. My all time fav is Groundhog Day. I also really love Snatch. Brad Pitt is really good in that one.

  210. @whorefinder
    Women tend to follow the same male stars around their entire career. If a woman gets a jonesing for Male Star X when she's 20 you can bet she'll watch his stuff hen she's 30, 40, 50, and beyond. That;s the kind of nostalgia they like.

    I knew a girl around 20 who got a massive crush on Richard Gere due to Pretty Woman. Fast forward to 40 and she still will see anything he's in (like Romy and Michelle were). Younger chicks are like that with Zac Effron or that Harry Potter kid or what have you.

    It seems once a woman gets hit with a "star gaze" on a male celebrity they're hooked for life, unless they meet said male celeb IRL and spend time with him and see he's not one of his roles. Hugh Grant in Music and Lyrics illustrated this well: he plays a washed up 80's pop star who goes on nostalgia tours so he can sleep with the same female fans who were screaming in his audience at 18 but had turned 35 or 45 and, yet, still liked his old ass in leather pants. Then he starts hanging out with one of the groupies and she gets over him while her sister (Drew Barrymore) ends up falling in love with him

    What gets a lot of women crazy is how quickly a girl can go from "It" girl to forgettable for men. It gets women angry because they hang onto their male crushes as they age. For example, 10 years ago Megan Fox was the hottest number in America with legions of male admirers. Nowadays she couldn't sell a sitcom, even if it was written by Mike Judge and Seth MacFarlane and is reduced to playing MILFy-but-unbilled roles in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies.

    Women get mad at this, but really they're just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.

    Certain films are nostalgic for women, but they either involve early childhood memories (e.g. Wizard of Oz) or hit movies everyone saw (9 1/2 weeks, The Way We Were). Women are much more natural at following the pack on movies in general, but much more cult like in following an individual male star's career, groupie-like following an alpha male.

    Replies: @snorlax, @ScarletNumber

    Women tend to follow the same male stars around their entire career.

    This is why Marge Simpson’s sisters love MacGyver. They don’t even refer to the poor guy by name.

  211. Just talked to a nerdy female friend. Here is her list of unpopular, obscure movies that she enjoys watching with her fellow nerdy females. Steve’s prediction is true, and his insight is uncanny:

    1. Hedwig and the Angry Inch (made by a gay guy)
    2. Pink Flamingos (gay)
    2. Adventurs of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert (gay)
    3. My Own Private Idaho (gay)
    4. Heathers (already mentioned here)
    5. 9 1/2 Weeks (early version of 50 Shades)
    5. Napoleon Dynamite (maybe a “sleeper” more than a cult film)
    6. Repo! The Genetic Opera (I had a female student last semester say this was her favorite flick as well; haven’t seen it but it probably involves gay somehow)

  212. Full House. Girls in their twenties still love Full House even though it stopped airing over two decades ago.

  213. @Steve Sailer
    @Forbes

    Killing time in the drug store at the magazine rack, it struck me that the magazines that are prospering are the ones where the main attractions were always the ads: e.g., Vogue and other fashion magazines. The latest issue of Vogue is 444 pages. In contrast, the magazines where the content was the attraction, such as Time, have shrunk away to husks of themselves.

    Online remains strikingly poor at delivering ads, even though that's where all the money is. It's one of the weirder facts of the Internet age.

    Replies: @3g4me

    @153 Steve Sailer: “Online remains strikingly poor at delivering ads, even though that’s where all the money is. It’s one of the weirder facts of the Internet age.”

    I don’t know if there’s a particular algorithm for determining which ads one is subjected to when playing online games – when I’m bored or weary unto death of all the bad news in the world, I sometimes retreat to playing Freecell online, where everything is neat and orderly and ends up in the right place. Since I don’t pay for this I get force-fed ads every so often. Lately they’ve all been in Spanish and for Chevy. Earlier they had some of the same ads in English. The English versions carefully toted up the pokemon points – always a Negro or two and/or Oriental or Hispanic among the “real people” featured. The Spanish versions never feature any Negroes or Orientals – just Whites and Hispanics of various degrees of mixed Indian/European origin.

    The other English ads (not for Chevy) have all featured diversity and miscegenation to one degree or another. I get up for the 2 minute ads and use the bathroom, or put the laundry in the dryer, and then resume playing Freecell.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @3g4me


    I get up for the 2 minute ads and use the bathroom, or put the laundry in the dryer, and then resume playing Freecell.
     
    I really like that attitude, 3G! I know there are, ahem, bloggers, who really want to let us know about all the stupidity in the media, but for the rest of us, it's really better if you tune out.

    I have to travel some, and I will often work out for a short while in a hotel fitness center. I HATE HATE HATE (TM-Whiskey) TV, so I will look all over for the remote control to cut it off, if no one's watching, or just pull the plug if I can't find the RC. Not out of being a jerk-off, but just cause I don't want someone to cut it back on when I am in the middle of a timed work-out, I will stick that remote under a few of the towels. Hey, people are supposed to use those, right, so they'll. get their precious idiot box back in due time.

    If I were really a jerk-off slash cheap-ass, I'd pull out the one or two AA batteries to put a stop to this shit. You can never have enough of those. I won't go that far out of honesty.

    Replies: @3g4me

  214. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    Mean Girls for sure

  215. @education realist
    It seems people are confusing "movies that women like" with "cult films that women like". At least some number of women. Because not all men like cult films, either.

    In the latter category:

    --Blade Runner is big with women who like science fiction.
    --Rocky Horror Picture Show is, as mentioned, popular with women.
    --Harold and Maude is popular with women
    --Heathers--how is it no one mentioned this? Or maybe I missed it.
    --Fight Club
    --Pulp Fiction (although I'm not sure this is a cult film)
    --Dazed and Confused
    --Donnie Darko
    --Monty Python and the Holy Grail
    --Office Space
    --Princess Bride

    Replies: @Seth Largo

    Right. I think the more salient division isn’t between men and women so much as nerds and non-nerds, and most nerds happen to be men.

    The hot quarterback of Midwestern High School is not sitting around tonight with the offensive line debating the merits of Evil Dead versus Evil Dead 2. The guys whose asses get beat by the offensive line are doing that. Neither are the cheerleaders discussing the merits of Evil Dead versus Evil Dead 2 . They’re banging the offensive line. The girls whose looks get trashed by the cheerleaders are, unlike the male nerds, a mixed bag. Some of them might be having the Evil Dead debate (probably with the male nerds), but others are trying real hard to look pretty for the morning, others are making out with a fellow player from the softball team, while others are practicing twirling their flags for color guard.

  216. Nurse Betty is a female cult classic

    Taxi Driver a male one. The Herman score made the movie.

    Heat us another male cult classic.

  217. @snorlax
    @whorefinder


    Women get mad at this, but really they’re just in denial about sex differences, and/or mad at it. Men age like wine, women age like milk.
     
    Our First Lady's the exception that proves the rule; you won't find many women who look that stunning* at 47, or any age.

    Ironically, her husband's the other exception; he aged decently until around the time he hit 60 in 2006, but he has not fared well at all since then.

    Anyway, if Stormy Daniels' got Melania needing a shoulder to cry on, she's welcome any time.

    *Stunning in the Alexandra Daddario (NSFW - top half nudity - link) sense, not the Caitlyn Jenner sense.

    Replies: @Rosie, @Autochthon, @ScarletNumber

    I don’t find the first lady to be attractive at all.

  218. Steve advertising online us plagued by click and view fraud. Its up to 75% in some cases bogus. Much harder to fake print sales.

  219. @Kylie
    @Michelle

    I saw and liked the Snowtown Murders. Will check out the others you mentioned. Another interesting Aussie film is Noise. Since you like intense crime movies, I recommend Big Bad Wolves which also benefits from having a wonderfully brooding score.

    Dogtooth was so good but even the few movie buffs I know haven't seeen it. I don't get that at all. It's brilliant in every way.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel, @Autochthon, @Twodees Partain

    Check out The Square if you’ve not already and you dig gritty Australian films about crime.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @Autochthon

    I saw The Square and liked it. Thanks. I always welcome recommendations.

  220. @Alfa158
    @AnotherGuessModel

    The movie was well done but her brother was a vicious sociopath who used and manipulated her, destroying her chance at happiness in favor of serving him forever. You find that “moving”? Talk about amusingly shallow, I found it heartrending but also cruel, tragic and infuriating. The film was an exhibition of a succession of frankly pitiable characters, I don’t expect everybody to be a Randian hero, but I have to wonder about the director after a certain point.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel

    It’s been a while since I last saw the movie, but I don’t remember her brother as abusive, certainly not sociopathic. I have a friend with a mentally ill sibling who disrupts and has probably impeded his personal life, but never out of malice. Maybe that distorted my interpretation of the brother. You may have found the story cruel and infuriating because you are projecting how you would feel in a situation like that. Don’t take that as judgment; I wouldn’t handle it well either. But I wasn’t as tested by the subplot and rest of the movie as you were. I agree that the characters were pitiable in a way, but a great deal of our life choices and circumstances surrounding love are pitiable.

  221. @AnotherGuessModel
    @Alfa158

    It's a very charming and cohesive ensemble movie, and it switches between different moods seamlessly, from drama to romantic comedy to sex farce. That's very hard to get right, and have a wide appeal. Your synopsis is amusingly shallow, for example:


    male model hunk crazy about oppressed average looking older woman but romance ruined by her vicious psychotic brother
     
    That was a very moving subplot where the director transitioned from what seemed like a wish-fulfillment movie romance into a heartrending meditation on familial love and self-sacrifice.

    But again, not really a cult classic. It was a mainstream success and its popularity has endured.

    Replies: @Alfa158, @James Kabala

    I think this probably comes closest of the films mentioned in this thread to a being a genuine cult classic for women. For U.S. box office it did OK, but it ranked below or barely above a number of films that few would rewatch today:

    http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2003&p=.htm

    (Granted it was a British film and may have done better there.)

    The reviews were mixed also. A few years ago the critic Christopher Orr humorously recounted his shock that the film was considered a classic by some:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/12/-em-love-actually-em-is-the-least-romantic-film-of-all-time/282091/

  222. @Simon
    I'm not sure whether it qualifies as a chick-flick cult film, but I've always been very fond of "Ghost World" -- funny, charming, touching, with a memorably poignant ending. I've probably watched it a dozen times.

    P.S. I think the Coens' "Raising Arizona" is as funny as "Lebowski," and it has some gloriously trippy camera work.

    Replies: @gutta percha, @James Kabala

    That is a good movie and a probably counts as a cult classic, but I wonder (even though the two main characters are women) whether its fanbase is mostly female or not.

  223. @Roderick Spode
    @kihowi

    I'm sorry your Mom was so unpleasant to you.

    Replies: @kihowi

    I’m sorry you think rescuing maidens on the internet is going to make up for your lack of ability with real ones.

    And in a bitchy, passive aggressive way too. Ewww.

    • Replies: @Roderick Spode
    @kihowi

    I've been waiting so long for someone on Unz to acuse me of white knighting. Thanks. It's true that I do get along well with women. Actually I'm married to one. Are you?

    I also noticed you didn't bother to deny having had an abusive mother. Bummer.

  224. @Neoconned
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/opinion/sunday/obama-trump-voters-democrats.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

    Steve, the NYT is attempting to examine Obama/Trump crossover voting from the 2012/16 campaigns

    Replies: @Lagertha

    the failure of that article is: they just concentrate on the young voters who tuned out in 2012….not the old voters who pay all the taxes to support the lazy people, older voters, and women, who voted twice for O, but cast their lots for Trump in 2016.

  225. @Highlander
    My millennial children, both son and daughter love The Big Lebowski. They think I am just like The Dude.

    Replies: @Lagertha

    you’re a lucky man.

    • LOL: Highlander
  226. The line “stick my head in there again, I think I can find it this time” was worth the price of admission all by itself.

  227. @Hapalong Cassidy
    This movie, and “Raising Arizona” are the two Coen Brothers movies I don’t care for at all. One aspect of Lebowski I really really didn’t care for was the gratuitous insertion of Nazis in tandem with John Goodman’s Jewish avenger-type character. Or maybe I’m just remembering that part wrong. I don’t care because I’m not watching it again.

    Replies: @al gore rhythms, @MEH 0910

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/AllGermansAreNazis

    Walter: Nothing changes. Fucking Nazis.
    Donnie: They were Nazis, Dude?
    Walter: Well come on, Donnie! They were threatening castration! Are we gonna split hairs here? Am I wrong?
    Dude: They were nihilists, man. They kept saying they believed in nothing.
    Walter: Nihilists… Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.

  228. @LondonBob
    Is Dark City a cult film, it should be, for men?

    Replies: @Lugash

    It’s a cult film for me. Not sure why it didn’t get more exposure.

    • Agree: European-American
  229. @Steve Sailer
    @European-American

    Ayn Rand.

    Opera singers like Maria Callas.

    Aimee Semple McPherson, Madame Blavatsky.

    On the other hand, you could probably point to men doing much of the creating of these cults, like Ayn Rand's boyfriend what's his name.

    Replies: @European-American, @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Ayn Rand.

    Oh that is a good one.You will have the Libertarians out for your scalp now. But at least you don’t have to worry about the idiot who tackled Rand Paul. (Ayn Rand, Rand Paul, coincidence? I don’t think so!)

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Hey, easy now. Not all Libertarians like Ann Rand. Try reading one of her novels one time. I only got through The Fountainhead due to the fact that I was unemployed at the time. NEVER AGAIN!

    Yes, I think that was part of Dr. Paul's idea, but it's short for Randy (which is diminutive for Randal). Would you rather he be named one of those modern last-name first names, Charles? I notice you are not named Benson, Pendleton, Carlin, or Tanner. Be grateful. Better to be named after a man of the cloth.

    Replies: @Autochthon

  230. @AnotherGuessModel
    @Kylie

    Dogtooth isn't obscure as far as foreign films go, it was nominated for Best Foreign Language movie, and Lanthimos has gone on to make acclaimed English-language movies with big-name actors. His actress wife just landed a major perfume campaign. He's not for me, but if you find Dogtooth brilliant, you'll like that whole Greek Weird Wave that he is at the forefront of. I'm not sure why Lanthimos and others deny that their work is part of an artistic movement, but they have a similar, distinctive style.

    Replies: @Kylie

    I know Dogtooth was widely acclaimed. That’s why I’m so puzzled that so few of the people I know who like movies have seen it.

  231. @3g4me
    I've seen Grease and Beaches on tv - which was what my husband was watching. They were okay, but I never wanted to watch them again. I never saw Romy and Michelle or Mean Girls or any of the Bridget Jones movies. I saw the Harry Potter movies when my younger kid read the books and I bought him the DVDs. I saw Pride and Prejudice once and found it okay, although I have read the book several times. I haven't been to the movie theatre literally in years.

    Yeah, I realize I'm hardly typical and find most women annoying emoting airheads - yet my "best friends" have always been women and I'm into babies more than I am into debating political and cultural issues. The only movies I have knowingly chosen to watch more than once, at least that I can think of right now, are Franco Zeffirelli's 1968 Romeo and Juliet (saw in the theatre as a child and later bought the video) and Blast from the Past (saw in the dollar theatre right after I confirmed I was expecting my 2nd son and then bought the video).

    Obviously I'm quite nostalgic - but for the glories of Western Civilization and pre-pozzed America.

    Replies: @European-American

    I’ll second Blast from the Past as one of my favorite cult movies. I guess it’s a bit reactionary, but really it’s more wistful than reactionary.

    I’m not sure why it has so-so reviews. I think it’s perfect. But I’ll admit I’m generally a sucker for chick flicks, oddly enough. Perhaps because they tend to be fairly conservative. Or because I’m a sentimental idiot.

    • Replies: @3g4me
    @European-American

    @230 European-American: "I’m not sure why it has so-so reviews. I think it’s perfect. But I’ll admit I’m generally a sucker for chick flicks, oddly enough. Perhaps because they tend to be fairly conservative. Or because I’m a sentimental idiot."

    I don't give a rat's a$$ for reviews, and I'm not all that crazy for chick flicks (I thought Sleepless in Seattle was incredibly boring). I like the movie because, as you noted, it's looks back fondly on an America when Mom taught her son to dance, and Dad taught him to box, and they both taught him manners and respect while cultivating manliness. (I realize the movie showed Mom slowly going nuts and becoming an alcoholic, but that was from living underground with no other company for all those years, not from the evil patriarchy.)

    The movie's juxtaposition of the various changes up above (from 50s soda shop to hippy joint to new-age whatever) compared to the stability down below was rather clever. The movie doesn't make enormous efforts to be transgressive; it celebrates old-fashioned values such as respect for parents - even if Mom's an alcoholic and Dad's looking for commie spies in the microwave - and the protagonist isn't a wimp or idiot for putting up with them - he's merely a loving son. That, today, is what's transgressive.

    Replies: @European-American

  232. @anon
    @Steve Sailer

    I stumbled upon this when I visited Mackinac Island for a conference (and golfing) about 5 years ago … 1980’s Somewhere in Time with Jane Seymour and Christopher Reeves has a very weird cult that worships it. People drop five grand to dress up and … I don’t really know … pretend they’re in the movie? It was wild. The movie was shot at the island’s “Grand” Hotel, a 100 some years old wooden hotel. The island has no cars. The hotel’s golf course “The Jewel” has a neat gimmick — the front and back nine are seperated by a 15 minute horse drawn carriage ride. I had never even heard of this movie until I ended up there by chance. It’s Rocky Horror for nice white ladies.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Achmed E. Newman

    A guy who worked for me in Chicago around 1990, he and his wife were really into “Somewhere in Time.” I never saw it, but that might be a rare couples cult movie.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    @Steve Sailer

    What are the odds? Somewhere in Time and The Final Countdown
    both came out within a few weeks of each other in the fall of 1980.
    Both are concerned with time travel except that The Final Countdown
    is set during WW II, and the former mainly in the early part of the
    20th century. I saw both when they first came out, and recommend
    both although personally I liked Somewhere in Time better. There is
    something enchanting about going back to an earlier era. Plus you
    can't beat Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini as your
    movie theme

    , @Autochthon
    @Steve Sailer

    Somehwere in Time is a solid effort, better even than Powerslave (I really loved "Alexander the Great," "Wasted Years," and "The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner" as a young boy), though I'm not sure about the appeal for couples....

  233. @ThreeCranes
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Radical Feminist White women are bored with their lives. Life is too easy. The technical accomplishments of the stale, pale white male have taken all the danger and adventure out of life. If some are to be believed, she craves dark meat for its spiciness and savory sauce. This distresses white beta and some Alpha males. But it shouldn't.

    Instead of despairing (because, after all, we've done all we can do to make their lives safe) when some bored white chick complains about white alpha males, we should take the opposite tack. We should agree with them whole heartedly and then encourage them to set off on an adventure that will take them out of the orbit of whiteness and instead plop them down in the pure, primal, earthy, non-mediated experience one encounters in trips to say, the upper Amazon where people still live close to Nature.

    She should get away from the phoniness of present advanced civilization! She owes it to herself to explore all that life has to offer. Yes! Indeed! Men in the tropics are more virile! Life is simpler, distilled down to its essence in the remote jungles of Brazil, Africa or New Guinea! There, finally, she can live the simple life concerned only with human necessities, free at last from the invidious influence of whiteness with its attendant commercial, industrial artificiality. She should go! Beyond the boundaries. Know no Limits! For her own self development. Be strong, girl!

    (Of course, what she will find are disease, parasites, flesh consuming molds and fungus, a mind-boggling assortment of bizarre, hungry insects, foul half-cooked food and dysentery-inducing water, hostile warring tribes, superstition, nativism, gunplay etc etc; but don't tell her that. Let her sail forth, believing in her dreams. Encourage her. Meanwhile, let us take comfort in the knowledge that there is Justice in the world.)

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “encourage them to set off on an adventure that will take them out of the orbit of whiteness and instead plop them down in the pure, primal, earthy, non-mediated experience one encounters in trips to say, the upper Amazon where people still live close to Nature”

    Like this childless, brave (she’d walked to the South Pole previously) but foolish woman.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4913778/Last-pictures-British-head-teacher-murdered-Amazon.html

    Her fate would probably have remained a mystery had not the people who robbed, raped and killed her inadvertantly hit the ‘SOS’ button on her emergency tracking beacon while trying to discover how it worked. Her body’s still not been found.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    @YetAnotherAnon

    The headline is execrable writing:


    Last pictures of British head teacher murdered in the Amazon by villagers who begged: Don't go alone
     
    My first reading left me thinking beggars murdered the woman, so the paper was using the victim's plight to admonish readers to never travel alone; then I thought, "No, wait, she was murdered by the very people who advised her not to go alone; perhaps they were preemptively setting themselves up as the good guys to gain her trust and maybe deflect suspicions."

    Of course, I finally realised I was just dealing with more shitty, albeit ostensibly professional, writers who've no idea how to construct a sentence....
  234. @Autochthon
    @Kylie

    Check out The Square if you've not already and you dig gritty Australian films about crime.

    Replies: @Kylie

    I saw The Square and liked it. Thanks. I always welcome recommendations.

  235. Like everyone else, I thought ‘Thelma & Louise’. Some of the Hitchcock films could be called cult classics – Marnie, Vertigo etc. Amelie. Breakfast at Tiffany’s. Sunset Boulevard. Alien. Luc Besson’s films are full of ‘ass-kicking chicks’.

  236. The Big Lebowski is an ode to White California (set in early 90s) that by 1998 was already gone.

  237. @Steve Sailer
    @whorefinder

    "Satire swims well in the milieu of its times, but doesn’t transfer well into future oceans."

    And that's why nobody reads Don Quixote anymore. Or Gulliver's Travels. Or Jane Austen.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    I didn’t say the literature didn’t transfer, I said the satirical elements didn’t transfer. All the the examples you mentioned are not read as satire today, and in fact most people don’t think of them as that.

    Austen’s satire goes completely over the head of modern readers, especially since the movies re-inforce the novels as non-satirical.

    I once read a prominent black writer who didn’t understand Gulliver’s Travels was a satire. He thought it was simply a children’s tale, and actually used it as an example of how writers should be careful at what they create, since they might not be known for their “intellectual” works but instead remembered (as he thought Swift was) for silly works of fantasy. The multitude of adaptations on TV and film of the book share little of the original satire (they had an awful one just a few years ago with the terminally unfunny Jack Black).

    Don Quixote began as a straight satire of chivalrous romances popular in Spain at the time, but as any lit professor will tell you it evolved into something far greater than that. Modern audiences don’t read it as a satire, either, because (1) we don’t have those other novels around; and (2) the emphasis is on the other, greater literary aspects. Picture the TV show Archer if it suddenly developed more gravitas and started talking about sociopolitical commentary in an entertaining way and used stunning wordplay and descriptions while Archer was slapping his butler around or murdering scores of drug dealers—that’s pretty much the best current description of what Don Quixote became and is read for these days.

    I guess it’s a testament to how well these authors constructed their works that people still adapt and read them today without any notion of the original bite. They developed entertaining and interesting worlds for their characters that people love exploring.

  238. A good choice for a female cult film might be ‘The Secretary’ with Maggie Gyllenhaal, in which she plays a secretary to a domineering boss. It covers the same kind of ground as ‘Fifty Shades’ although a lot better, probably (I haven’t even seen fifty shades and I’m not going to). It’s not as well known as ‘fifty shades’ so not so many women have heard of it, but it still pushes the right buttons.

    On the subject of the inspiration for ‘Lebowski’; I came across a great little book of essays about the film by Film Studies types, by BFI Film Classics. As well as the obvious comparison to ‘The Big Sleep’, one of the essays mentions a 1981 film called ‘Cutter’s Way’ in which Jeff Bridges plays a muscular, svelte beach bum gigolo who is friends with an angry Vietnam veteran. They show two stills from the films, one a shot of Bridges layed back with his top off in the old film, contrasted with the same looking shot of Lebowksi reclined in the bath. It is obviously deliberate on the Coen Brother’s part. They also mention the Robert Altman film ‘The Long Goodbye’ which was a favourite of theirs. Again, there is a shot of Elliot Gould choosing something from the aisles of a supermarket, contrasted with the Dude in the supermarket at the beginning of ‘Lebowski’. ‘The Long Goodbye’ also features a Jewish gangster disgruntled about having to work on the Sabbath.

  239. @(((They))) Live
    Almost every line of the Big Lebowski is quotable

    Replies: @whorefinder

    Yeah, well…that’s just your opinion, man.

  240. @Rosie
    @Rosie

    Any man who believes this is himself in denial. Women marry older men for $$$, not because they've been swept off their feet.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    ROFL. Typical female denialism.

    Sean Connery, George Clooney, Richard Gere, Denzel Washington—all older gents, all could still have multiple 20 year old gfs. Heck, Patrick Stewart is currently with a chick in her 30s whom he started banging in her 20s.

    Men have a much longer sexual attractiveness timeline than women, honey. Deal with it.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    @whorefinder

    Wow! Stewart is a pimp. He is seventy-seven, his (third!) wife is younger than I am. (And here I thought I made out having a wife ten years younger....) These situations are indeed as much about money as appearance in at least one respect, though: a working schlub like me could never afford to have two, three, four, and more ex-wives the way filthy rich looks like the Stewarts (Patrick and Rod) can. Hell, even Robin Williams (hardly a man with low earnings!) was famously always working like a dog to keep the parasitic wives and lovers of his past appeased. It's probably a large reason why he ultimately offed himself....

  241. @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    A guy who worked for me in Chicago around 1990, he and his wife were really into "Somewhere in Time." I never saw it, but that might be a rare couples cult movie.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Autochthon

    What are the odds? Somewhere in Time and The Final Countdown
    both came out within a few weeks of each other in the fall of 1980.
    Both are concerned with time travel except that The Final Countdown
    is set during WW II, and the former mainly in the early part of the
    20th century. I saw both when they first came out, and recommend
    both although personally I liked Somewhere in Time better. There is
    something enchanting about going back to an earlier era. Plus you
    can’t beat Rachmaninoff’s Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini as your
    movie theme

  242. @Steve Sailer
    @anon

    A guy who worked for me in Chicago around 1990, he and his wife were really into "Somewhere in Time." I never saw it, but that might be a rare couples cult movie.

    Replies: @Anon 2, @Autochthon

    Somehwere in Time is a solid effort, better even than Powerslave (I really loved “Alexander the Great,” “Wasted Years,” and “The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner” as a young boy), though I’m not sure about the appeal for couples….

  243. @YetAnotherAnon
    @ThreeCranes

    "encourage them to set off on an adventure that will take them out of the orbit of whiteness and instead plop them down in the pure, primal, earthy, non-mediated experience one encounters in trips to say, the upper Amazon where people still live close to Nature"

    Like this childless, brave (she'd walked to the South Pole previously) but foolish woman.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4913778/Last-pictures-British-head-teacher-murdered-Amazon.html

    Her fate would probably have remained a mystery had not the people who robbed, raped and killed her inadvertantly hit the 'SOS' button on her emergency tracking beacon while trying to discover how it worked. Her body's still not been found.

    Replies: @Autochthon

    The headline is execrable writing:

    Last pictures of British head teacher murdered in the Amazon by villagers who begged: Don’t go alone

    My first reading left me thinking beggars murdered the woman, so the paper was using the victim’s plight to admonish readers to never travel alone; then I thought, “No, wait, she was murdered by the very people who advised her not to go alone; perhaps they were preemptively setting themselves up as the good guys to gain her trust and maybe deflect suspicions.”

    Of course, I finally realised I was just dealing with more shitty, albeit ostensibly professional, writers who’ve no idea how to construct a sentence….

  244. @Charles Erwin Wilson
    @Steve Sailer


    Ayn Rand.
     
    Oh that is a good one.You will have the Libertarians out for your scalp now. But at least you don't have to worry about the idiot who tackled Rand Paul. (Ayn Rand, Rand Paul, coincidence? I don't think so!)

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Hey, easy now. Not all Libertarians like Ann Rand. Try reading one of her novels one time. I only got through The Fountainhead due to the fact that I was unemployed at the time. NEVER AGAIN!

    Yes, I think that was part of Dr. Paul’s idea, but it’s short for Randy (which is diminutive for Randal). Would you rather he be named one of those modern last-name first names, Charles? I notice you are not named Benson, Pendleton, Carlin, or Tanner. Be grateful. Better to be named after a man of the cloth.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Hey now! Benson was one of the last sensible Negroes (even if he was fictitious)!

  245. @anon
    @Steve Sailer

    I stumbled upon this when I visited Mackinac Island for a conference (and golfing) about 5 years ago … 1980’s Somewhere in Time with Jane Seymour and Christopher Reeves has a very weird cult that worships it. People drop five grand to dress up and … I don’t really know … pretend they’re in the movie? It was wild. The movie was shot at the island’s “Grand” Hotel, a 100 some years old wooden hotel. The island has no cars. The hotel’s golf course “The Jewel” has a neat gimmick — the front and back nine are seperated by a 15 minute horse drawn carriage ride. I had never even heard of this movie until I ended up there by chance. It’s Rocky Horror for nice white ladies.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Achmed E. Newman

    I’ve got a feeling that one has a small cult following for religious reasons. Yes, belief in reincarnation is as religious as anything else, and there aren’t many American movies with reincarnation as a story line.

    The best one that I know is Made in Heaven, from 3 decades ago. It may be considered a chick flick, but I don’t care, as it’s one of my all-time favorites. I included a clip one time here when Tom Petty died, as this movie features cameos from him and a coupla other rock guys (I won’t spoil it.)

    2 thumbs up for Made in Heaven, even if you don’t wonder about reincarnation.

    Yeah, also, if you find yourself in the upper palm* of Michigan in the summer, take the boat ride from north of Alpena out to the island. It beats the hell out of Disneyland.

  246. @3g4me
    @Steve Sailer

    @153 Steve Sailer: "Online remains strikingly poor at delivering ads, even though that’s where all the money is. It’s one of the weirder facts of the Internet age."

    I don't know if there's a particular algorithm for determining which ads one is subjected to when playing online games - when I'm bored or weary unto death of all the bad news in the world, I sometimes retreat to playing Freecell online, where everything is neat and orderly and ends up in the right place. Since I don't pay for this I get force-fed ads every so often. Lately they've all been in Spanish and for Chevy. Earlier they had some of the same ads in English. The English versions carefully toted up the pokemon points - always a Negro or two and/or Oriental or Hispanic among the "real people" featured. The Spanish versions never feature any Negroes or Orientals - just Whites and Hispanics of various degrees of mixed Indian/European origin.

    The other English ads (not for Chevy) have all featured diversity and miscegenation to one degree or another. I get up for the 2 minute ads and use the bathroom, or put the laundry in the dryer, and then resume playing Freecell.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    I get up for the 2 minute ads and use the bathroom, or put the laundry in the dryer, and then resume playing Freecell.

    I really like that attitude, 3G! I know there are, ahem, bloggers, who really want to let us know about all the stupidity in the media, but for the rest of us, it’s really better if you tune out.

    I have to travel some, and I will often work out for a short while in a hotel fitness center. I HATE HATE HATE (TM-Whiskey) TV, so I will look all over for the remote control to cut it off, if no one’s watching, or just pull the plug if I can’t find the RC. Not out of being a jerk-off, but just cause I don’t want someone to cut it back on when I am in the middle of a timed work-out, I will stick that remote under a few of the towels. Hey, people are supposed to use those, right, so they’ll. get their precious idiot box back in due time.

    If I were really a jerk-off slash cheap-ass, I’d pull out the one or two AA batteries to put a stop to this shit. You can never have enough of those. I won’t go that far out of honesty.

    • Replies: @3g4me
    @Achmed E. Newman

    @245 Achmed E Newman: "I HATE HATE HATE (TM-Whiskey) TV, so I will look all over for the remote control to cut it off, if no one’s watching, or just pull the plug if I can’t find the RC. "

    My kind of guy! You really should pull the batteries from the remote - I would! I carry a pair of foam earplugs in my purse and prominently insert them whenever I'm forcibly subjected to t.v. or other propaganda (waiting rooms, etc.). I used them last year when I was called for potential jury duty - the films and lectures on "our democracy" had me gagging - and that was before they somehow accidentally ensured that every potential juror with a hijab or Mohammedan name was one of the "random" names chosen as a juror.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  247. @Jus' Sayin'...

    In general, are women less nostalgic than men?
     
    I vaguely remember reading a popularized account of men's versus women's recollections of past lovers. The take away was that men are much more likely to remember past romances and women are much more likely not only to forget them but to bury them beyond point of recovery. As I remember, the researchers suggested this might be an aspect of the two sex's very different reproductive strategies. Women do not have time to tarry over might-have-been fathers of their children. They need to crank out babies in the short time they have between menarche and menopause. Mooning over lost loves wastes time.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    With one exception—the alpha widows. If a woman is involved with, sleeps with, or dates a man she views as extremely high status, she will hold onto to that memory years down the line and never let it go. Usually, that results in her inability to stay with any other lesser male afterwards, meaning she’ll likely be alone. This is doubly true if the girl is less than super attractive, because she’ll have very little chance of getting any other alpha to notice her.

    Monica Lewinsky is a very good example. She was a fat Jewish unremarkable chick who got to suck the handsome younger President’s little bubba—and got world famous for it.. There was no coming back after that. It’s unsurprising she’s remained single since then; she probably fantasizes that Bill someday will come back to her, all these years later.

    Music groupies tend to be like that as well.

    • Replies: @Lugash
    @whorefinder

    I doubt she had many men coming after her anyways. Being a slut in private is one thing, being publicly exposed as a slut to the world in the 1990s made her radioactive. One of the business mags at the time interviewed a bunch of HR managers who said they wouldn't even think of hiring her.

    It's funny how she was successful(LSE degree in 2006, TedX 2014) right before Hilary was campaigning.

  248. The Coen Brothers bridge the gap between art house and mainstream cinema better than anyone else currently working in Hollywood. Critics have trouble getting on board when they deliver a movie with populist sensibilities and audiences go cold when they get too self-indulgent. The “Big Lebowksi” fell though the cracks upon release like a lot of other cult films.

    One consistent trope they’ve toyed with is Jewish domination of the movie business. Goys could not get away unscathed with the broad characterizations of Jewish industry types in their films, even circa Barton Fink. They also do a pretty good job goofing on the pretentious modern art world, which is an easy target that rarely ever gets lampooned.

  249. @Kylie
    @Michelle

    I saw and liked the Snowtown Murders. Will check out the others you mentioned. Another interesting Aussie film is Noise. Since you like intense crime movies, I recommend Big Bad Wolves which also benefits from having a wonderfully brooding score.

    Dogtooth was so good but even the few movie buffs I know haven't seeen it. I don't get that at all. It's brilliant in every way.

    Replies: @AnotherGuessModel, @Autochthon, @Twodees Partain

    Dogtooth? I couldn’t even watch the trailer all the way through.

    • LOL: Kylie
  250. Female nerdiness is manifested more in genre television shows like Buffy or The Vampire Diaries, where the mostly female fanbase write long, obsessive recaps of episodes and send death threats to the writers when they don’t focus on the romantic relationships they enjoy. They’re an army of Annie Wilkes from Misery, basically.

  251. @Mr. Blank
    Grease is sort of a cult film for chicks. Beaches is another one.

    But yeah, cult films seem to be less a thing with women. They seem to be more drawn to cult music (ABBA) or cult literature (Pride and Prejudice).

    Replies: @McSwag, @TGGP, @whorefinder, @Percy Gryce, @Jimi, @Stan Adams, @Rotten

    “Bride Wars” and “How to lose a guy in 10 days” seem to be cult movies loved by women, but were they too popular at release to be considered cult movies?

  252. @European-American
    @3g4me

    I’ll second Blast from the Past as one of my favorite cult movies. I guess it’s a bit reactionary, but really it’s more wistful than reactionary.

    I’m not sure why it has so-so reviews. I think it’s perfect. But I’ll admit I’m generally a sucker for chick flicks, oddly enough. Perhaps because they tend to be fairly conservative. Or because I’m a sentimental idiot.

    Replies: @3g4me

    @230 European-American: “I’m not sure why it has so-so reviews. I think it’s perfect. But I’ll admit I’m generally a sucker for chick flicks, oddly enough. Perhaps because they tend to be fairly conservative. Or because I’m a sentimental idiot.”

    I don’t give a rat’s a$$ for reviews, and I’m not all that crazy for chick flicks (I thought Sleepless in Seattle was incredibly boring). I like the movie because, as you noted, it’s looks back fondly on an America when Mom taught her son to dance, and Dad taught him to box, and they both taught him manners and respect while cultivating manliness. (I realize the movie showed Mom slowly going nuts and becoming an alcoholic, but that was from living underground with no other company for all those years, not from the evil patriarchy.)

    The movie’s juxtaposition of the various changes up above (from 50s soda shop to hippy joint to new-age whatever) compared to the stability down below was rather clever. The movie doesn’t make enormous efforts to be transgressive; it celebrates old-fashioned values such as respect for parents – even if Mom’s an alcoholic and Dad’s looking for commie spies in the microwave – and the protagonist isn’t a wimp or idiot for putting up with them – he’s merely a loving son. That, today, is what’s transgressive.

    • Replies: @European-American
    @3g4me

    Agree about Sleepless in Seattle, very dull. I think I could write an essay on why chick flicks (or some significant subclass of them) are surprisingly conservative -- pro-marriage, pro-traditional gender roles, etc. On the lines of: Jane Austen (patron saint of many a chick flick) wasn't exactly a bra-burning revolutionary. But that would require more research than even I could justify or stand!

  253. @Achmed E. Newman
    @3g4me


    I get up for the 2 minute ads and use the bathroom, or put the laundry in the dryer, and then resume playing Freecell.
     
    I really like that attitude, 3G! I know there are, ahem, bloggers, who really want to let us know about all the stupidity in the media, but for the rest of us, it's really better if you tune out.

    I have to travel some, and I will often work out for a short while in a hotel fitness center. I HATE HATE HATE (TM-Whiskey) TV, so I will look all over for the remote control to cut it off, if no one's watching, or just pull the plug if I can't find the RC. Not out of being a jerk-off, but just cause I don't want someone to cut it back on when I am in the middle of a timed work-out, I will stick that remote under a few of the towels. Hey, people are supposed to use those, right, so they'll. get their precious idiot box back in due time.

    If I were really a jerk-off slash cheap-ass, I'd pull out the one or two AA batteries to put a stop to this shit. You can never have enough of those. I won't go that far out of honesty.

    Replies: @3g4me

    @245 Achmed E Newman: “I HATE HATE HATE (TM-Whiskey) TV, so I will look all over for the remote control to cut it off, if no one’s watching, or just pull the plug if I can’t find the RC. ”

    My kind of guy! You really should pull the batteries from the remote – I would! I carry a pair of foam earplugs in my purse and prominently insert them whenever I’m forcibly subjected to t.v. or other propaganda (waiting rooms, etc.). I used them last year when I was called for potential jury duty – the films and lectures on “our democracy” had me gagging – and that was before they somehow accidentally ensured that every potential juror with a hijab or Mohammedan name was one of the “random” names chosen as a juror.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @3g4me

    Thank you for the kind word, 3G. I will just give you a few links of stuff I've written about attempts to avoid the ubiquitous almighty TV:

    In which a salesman cannot believe I don't want GD TV and walks off the porch on his own volition.

    About TV in the waiting rooms and lobbies.

    I hope you enjoy the humor too. This damn TV everywhere is a real problem for me, and I've told people, if they're gonna ask that "yeah, I turned it off because it's a bunch of crap!".

  254. @Steve Sailer
    @Bardon Kaldian

    In her tastes in movies, Pauline Kael was sort of a guys' gal out of a Howard Hawks film.

    Replies: @Whoever

    a guys’ gal out of a Howard Hawks film

    That phrase intrigued me, as I know there are definitely “guy’s gals,” although they seem to be becoming as rare as men’s men, so I looked around and discovered there is actually a Hawksian woman.
    She can hold her own in a wit-driven argument, have the same profession as her male counterpart, and keep her cool under stress. But this does not detract from her feminine qualities, such as seductiveness and softness.
    Most who write about this type of woman focus on Lauren Bacall, but I think Joan Dru is a much better example. To me, Bacall comes off as a bit physically frail, and, from some angles, kind of odd-looking.
    Joan Dru looks like a “normal” American woman (which she was — a West-By-God-Virginia gal) who has spunk and guts and doesn’t put up with crap from anyone.

    The Hawksian woman should not be confused with the type of woman often portrayed by Bette Davis. She tended to play a disagreeable, hostile, arrogant, and definitely less easy-going, variety of woman who really didn’t like men, and was contemptuous of them.
    The Hawksian woman, in contrast, is quite fond of men, and admires them if they live up to all that it means to be a real man. But if they don’t … .

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    @Whoever

    Interesting. Last night I watched All the King's Men (1949) for the first time. Joanne Dru was in it and was just this kind of woman. She was the elder sister of Peter Marshall, an actor and singer best known as the original host of the American game show Hollywood Squares.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanne_Dru

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Autochthon
    @Whoever

    I don't doubt she portrayed this archetype adroitly in films, but I'd reserve judgement about just how swell she was until I'd gotten the perspectives of her four(!) husbands....

  255. OT: Steve, just saw this at Chateau Heartiste and it seems right up your alley:

    machine correctly predicts sex from brain imaging.

    Heartiste sagely notes: “The algorithm was not able to distinguish more than two sexes, male and female. Sorry, freaks, you don’t have a poo poo platter of genders to choose from. You’re either man, woman, or mentally ill.”

  256. @Whoever
    @Steve Sailer


    a guys’ gal out of a Howard Hawks film
     
    That phrase intrigued me, as I know there are definitely "guy's gals," although they seem to be becoming as rare as men's men, so I looked around and discovered there is actually a Hawksian woman.
    She can hold her own in a wit-driven argument, have the same profession as her male counterpart, and keep her cool under stress. But this does not detract from her feminine qualities, such as seductiveness and softness.
    Most who write about this type of woman focus on Lauren Bacall, but I think Joan Dru is a much better example. To me, Bacall comes off as a bit physically frail, and, from some angles, kind of odd-looking.
    Joan Dru looks like a "normal" American woman (which she was -- a West-By-God-Virginia gal) who has spunk and guts and doesn't put up with crap from anyone.
    https://i.imgur.com/G45mtGl.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/s53bldO.jpg
    The Hawksian woman should not be confused with the type of woman often portrayed by Bette Davis. She tended to play a disagreeable, hostile, arrogant, and definitely less easy-going, variety of woman who really didn't like men, and was contemptuous of them.
    The Hawksian woman, in contrast, is quite fond of men, and admires them if they live up to all that it means to be a real man. But if they don't ... .
    https://youtu.be/dWyA6LT0DdU

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Autochthon

    Interesting. Last night I watched All the King’s Men (1949) for the first time. Joanne Dru was in it and was just this kind of woman. She was the elder sister of Peter Marshall, an actor and singer best known as the original host of the American game show Hollywood Squares.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanne_Dru

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Jim Don Bob

    Her birth name was Joan LaCock.

  257. @whorefinder
    @Rosie

    ROFL. Typical female denialism.

    Sean Connery, George Clooney, Richard Gere, Denzel Washington---all older gents, all could still have multiple 20 year old gfs. Heck, Patrick Stewart is currently with a chick in her 30s whom he started banging in her 20s.

    Men have a much longer sexual attractiveness timeline than women, honey. Deal with it.

    Replies: @Autochthon

    Wow! Stewart is a pimp. He is seventy-seven, his (third!) wife is younger than I am. (And here I thought I made out having a wife ten years younger….) These situations are indeed as much about money as appearance in at least one respect, though: a working schlub like me could never afford to have two, three, four, and more ex-wives the way filthy rich looks like the Stewarts (Patrick and Rod) can. Hell, even Robin Williams (hardly a man with low earnings!) was famously always working like a dog to keep the parasitic wives and lovers of his past appeased. It’s probably a large reason why he ultimately offed himself….

  258. @Whoever
    @Steve Sailer


    a guys’ gal out of a Howard Hawks film
     
    That phrase intrigued me, as I know there are definitely "guy's gals," although they seem to be becoming as rare as men's men, so I looked around and discovered there is actually a Hawksian woman.
    She can hold her own in a wit-driven argument, have the same profession as her male counterpart, and keep her cool under stress. But this does not detract from her feminine qualities, such as seductiveness and softness.
    Most who write about this type of woman focus on Lauren Bacall, but I think Joan Dru is a much better example. To me, Bacall comes off as a bit physically frail, and, from some angles, kind of odd-looking.
    Joan Dru looks like a "normal" American woman (which she was -- a West-By-God-Virginia gal) who has spunk and guts and doesn't put up with crap from anyone.
    https://i.imgur.com/G45mtGl.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/s53bldO.jpg
    The Hawksian woman should not be confused with the type of woman often portrayed by Bette Davis. She tended to play a disagreeable, hostile, arrogant, and definitely less easy-going, variety of woman who really didn't like men, and was contemptuous of them.
    The Hawksian woman, in contrast, is quite fond of men, and admires them if they live up to all that it means to be a real man. But if they don't ... .
    https://youtu.be/dWyA6LT0DdU

    Replies: @Jim Don Bob, @Autochthon

    I don’t doubt she portrayed this archetype adroitly in films, but I’d reserve judgement about just how swell she was until I’d gotten the perspectives of her four(!) husbands….

  259. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Charles Erwin Wilson

    Hey, easy now. Not all Libertarians like Ann Rand. Try reading one of her novels one time. I only got through The Fountainhead due to the fact that I was unemployed at the time. NEVER AGAIN!

    Yes, I think that was part of Dr. Paul's idea, but it's short for Randy (which is diminutive for Randal). Would you rather he be named one of those modern last-name first names, Charles? I notice you are not named Benson, Pendleton, Carlin, or Tanner. Be grateful. Better to be named after a man of the cloth.

    Replies: @Autochthon

    Hey now! Benson was one of the last sensible Negroes (even if he was fictitious)!

  260. @Anon
    @Autochthon

    There are two meanings to 'cult films'.

    Those weird underground or indie movies made that attract a specialized obsessive audience.

    DONNIE DARKO. Not my fav but I can see how some obsess over it.

    But there is another meaning to 'cult film'. A film, even a big Hollywood one, that attracts a devoted cult following.

    GANDHI isn't a cult film but CASABLANCA and SEARCHERS can count as cult films.
    Also 2001 A SPACE ODYSSEY and THE SHINING. Their fans obsess over them.

    In the book about Cult movies, you will see a bunch of titles that were mainstream Hollywood. But they were loved to death by a diehard fans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_Movies_(book)

    A strange case was HAROLD AND MAUDE. Hollywood made it as a mainstream movie. What were they thinking? But it obviously failed at the box office because it was too weird.. but then developed a huge cult following. I think it played straight at one theater for 3 yrs.

    One thing for sure, a real cult film depends on span of audience reaction. A film director can try to make a cult film but it may gain no traction with fans who won't become diehard fans. SHOCK TREATMENT was made as a cult film but most fans of ROCKY HORROR ignored it. (Sad to say, the freakery of ROCKY HORROR has now become mainstream.)

    But Hollywood can make a big movie that people ignore... but becomes a cult obsession by diehard fans.... like BLADE RUNNER.

    And then, there are movies that were hits in their time... but refused to go away like most classics because every generation produces its own fans for that work. WIZARD OF OZ is such a movie.

    There are some movies that I think deserve Cult status but haven't gained such... yet. WOLFEN is nearly as good as BLADE RUNNER with similar themes.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    A film director can try to make a cult film

    If you’re consciously trying to make a cult film you will certainly fail.

    Cult films gain their cult status from their fans, not from the film-maker.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @dfordoom

    If you’re consciously trying to make a cult film you will certainly fail.

    Usually but there are exceptions.

    Anything Lynch does(with exception of STRAIGHT STORY) is cultish.
    Same with Wes Anderson.
    To an extent, so do the Coens whose movies are never fully mainstream.
    After a series of bombs, M. Night went into indie-cult mode and had two big smashes with low-budget quirky movies.
    Tarantino rebranded cultism into a major brand.
    Edgar Wright paraodies cult genres that become cult movies themselves.
    Amd Romero must have thought NIGHT OF LIVING DEAD is gonna be have a weird reputation.
    Cronenberg and his films too. He is willfully cult.
    I think Sam Fuller and Nicholas Ray were proto-cult directors. They didn't hide their uniquely eccentric sensibilities.

    Many horror directors think cultish, and their movies gain cult following.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  261. @Forbes
    @ScarletNumber

    Ever been to a check-out aisle in an American grocery or drug store, or to a newsstand? Nearly every remaining print magazine is about pop culture targeted at women.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @ScarletNumber

    There is a difference between following pop culture and being obsessed with it. Women may watch The Bachelor and Dancing with the Stars, but they aren’t going to go to a convention about those shows.

  262. @Jim Don Bob
    @Whoever

    Interesting. Last night I watched All the King's Men (1949) for the first time. Joanne Dru was in it and was just this kind of woman. She was the elder sister of Peter Marshall, an actor and singer best known as the original host of the American game show Hollywood Squares.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanne_Dru

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Her birth name was Joan LaCock.

  263. @Steve Sailer
    @BB753

    Me on "Twilight:"

    http://takimag.com/article/twilight_hit_for_the_same_reasons_knight_and_day_flopped/print#axzz59TjFJwt1

    Replies: @DCThrowback

    Knight & Day gets better each time I watch it.

    Approaching “Mr. & Mrs. Smith” levels of rewatchability.

  264. @JMcG
    @Lex

    How did I forget The Sound of Music? My wife will drop everything if that comes on.

    Replies: @whorefinder

    Christopher Plummer (who played the father) had long derided the film, saying at best it was a silly little diversion and he could never understand its broad appeal that lasted through the decades. He never appeared at any “reunion” events of the cast until something like the 50th, when Julie Andrews and the rights holders coaxed him into appearing and behaving much more avuncularly and cute-old-man like.

    Plummer’s role made him many young girls first “older man” crushes, as I have been reliably told by more than one female acquaintance. His “Edelweiss” duet with his on-screen daughter remains for many women a highlight of their memories of the film, as it apparently brings up a whole host of daddy-complex issues that a surprising large number of women apparently have:

    But it’s a great song and scene, nonetheless.

  265. @G
    I would say that Mean Girls has a cult following, but I would be hard pressed to think of another movie like it. Heathers is the only other movie that comes to mind, however it isn't explicitly a female targeted movie, like Mean Girls.

    Interesting observation, love your work.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Neoconned, @S. Anonyia, @Anonymous, @Tyrion 2, @TheMediumIsTheMassage, @The preferred nomenclature is..., @b.t.o, @James Kabala

    Mean Girls was probably too popular on first release to be considered a cult classic, but it is interesting to see that it, and Anchorman which also still has a following, ranked below forgotten things such as Starsky and Hutch or Along Came Polly (not to mention The Grudge, which is seven places higher than Mean Girls but which I cannot remember that I ever heard of before).

    • Replies: @James Kabala
    @James Kabala

    Oops, forgot the link: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2004

  266. Anonymous [AKA "Nick Imrie"] says:

    Just delurking to contribute, for what it’s worth, the anecdotes of my teenage years at a girls boarding school. There were five films that we watched ‘cultishly’ as in: always in a group of no less than 5 people, saying all the lines in time with the actors, dancing and singing along (where possible), endlessly quoting lines at each other when not actually watching the film, etc.:

    Dirty Dancing
    Strictly Ballroom
    Four Weddings and a Funeral
    Muriel’s Wedding
    Heathers

    We did the same for Mean Girls when it came out, but that was just after I left school. Most of these have been mentioned above, except for Muriel’s Wedding, but none of them were box office flops to begin with so maybe don’t count?

    Another distinction I’d point out is that male cult movies tend to be ones that guys try to _argue_ other guys into liking by use of rational arguments. I think most women consider that kind of stupid: e.g., there’s no arguing over taste.

    If this is the case then I’d like to suggest Jennifer’s Body as a female cult classic. It had bad reviews and bombed at the office but it had a pretty solid female fan base. It was advertised as one of those horror movies where sexy girls wear skimpy clothes and are murdered in titillating ways. This was false advertising. It was actually a chick flick about best-friendship. Guys hated it because they were tricked into watching a soppy, no-gore movie, so the girls who liked it were provoked into arguing in its defence! Maybe doesn’t count as classic though because I think it will die out with the generation who loved it.

    Austen’s satire goes completely over the head of modern readers, especially since the movies re-inforce the novels as non-satirical.

    There are Janeites, devoted Jane Austen fans, who tend to be female, who are fairly cultish: visiting Austen shrines like Bath and Chawton, meticulously period appropriate costume-making. Real Jane Austen fans are well aware of the satirical nature of her work and sneer at anyone who thinks they are fluffy love stories, and double-sneer at people who love the stories for things that happen in the films eg. Darcy diving in the lake or Darcy and Elizabeth kissing. They tend to hate-watch the movies (i.e. watch them just to get pleasantly angry about how wrong they are). But this is more about literature than movies.

    The most popular movies on IMDB tend to be guy movies that girls also say they like: Shawshank Redemption, Dark Knight, etc.

    Girls definitely love Shawshank Redemption. We watched that one a lot at school (but no chanting along with the film, which would’ve been rather crass considering the subject matter). It’s got everything girls love: best friends, rape, under-dogs eventually winning but not always confrontationally, talks about feelings.

  267. @kihowi
    @Roderick Spode

    I'm sorry you think rescuing maidens on the internet is going to make up for your lack of ability with real ones.

    And in a bitchy, passive aggressive way too. Ewww.

    Replies: @Roderick Spode

    I’ve been waiting so long for someone on Unz to acuse me of white knighting. Thanks. It’s true that I do get along well with women. Actually I’m married to one. Are you?

    I also noticed you didn’t bother to deny having had an abusive mother. Bummer.

  268. @Intelligent Dasein
    Not-quite-OT:

    Here is a recent article from The Guardian which avers that women are starting to distance themselves from the Alpha Male fantasy. Female romance novelists are growing ever more disgusted by their erstwhile protagonists' resemblance to Donald Trump.

    In early November 2016, Sarah MacLean was 275 pages into writing her latest historical romance novel, The Day of the Duchess. She had hit all the right buttons – a titled (and entitled) duke; a beautiful, estranged wife touched by scandal; and an insurmountable challenge the pair had to mount before they could, well, mount each other. And then Donald Trump was elected. And MacLean couldn’t bear her hero any more.

    “I woke up on 9 November and I was like, ‘I can’t write another one of these rich entitled impenetrable alphas. I just can’t,” says the New York Times bestselling author. “It was the story of that horrible impenetrable alpha evolving through love to be a fully formed human, which is a thing we do a lot in romance. And I just couldn’t see a way in my head that he would ultimately not be a Trump voter.”
     
    The whole article is written in the style of typical and trite Current Year feminist hermeneutics, and the attacks on Donald Trump are gratuitous and unwarranted. But all the same, it being an article by women and for women, we cannot dismiss the possibility---the probability, the near certainty---that these are just heavy dollops of post hoc rationalization which conceal a genuine motive, however confused may be the ideas that bring it into expression.

    Could it be dawning on modern women that what they have wrought is not really in their best interest? That the kind of man they've idealized has not really provided for them what they thought he would, and that the reality they now live with is very much less to their satisfaction? Are they deflecting their hatred of their own creation upon Donald Trump with all the characteristic female blame-shifting and horror of being wrong? Might this change in sensibilities signify that the modern interpretation of sexual politics is beginning to fall apart? Stay tuned.

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @ThreeCranes, @Forbes, @Brutusale

    Ol’ Sarah looks EXACTLY like someone excreting that sort of screed would look.

    https://reviews.libraryjournal.com/2014/07/featured/romance-awards-presented-in-san-antonio-rwa-2014/

  269. @Abe
    I think instead of ROMY & MICHELLE you’re really thinking of CLUELESS? I never saw more than bits and pieces of CLUELESS, but the big talking point at the time was that this was a brilliant reimaginaion of Jane Austen (forgot which novel exactly, though). Alicia Silverstone became a very big deal for half of the 90’s on the strength of this one movie alone, but of course that could have just been the quid pro quo payback from the hype machine of whichever producer she was ‘associated’ with at the time, if it wasn’t Weinstein.

    Overall, just want to second, third, and fourth a lot of the comments here. Based on my wife’s tastes (and basically I am so busy with work, chores, chaueferring the kids, etc. that I don’t have time to watch TV on my own anymore, and everything I see now is a a couples/relationship-building exercise) women don’t do old movies, let alone obscure/weird-o old movies!- outside of a very few culturally-lauded ones that are still generally popular and glamorous. For example, GONE WITH THE WIND or WIZARD OF OZ.

    Men definitely are more nostalgic (I’ve learned not to reminisce too much in front of the wife, as too many memories are still too loaded with negative emotional juju), but also women strongly gravitate to novelty/popularness, so I joke to myself that watching new movies with them is basically watching the same old movie just with whoever are America’s rom-com sweethearts at the moment (Julia Roberts -> Sandra Bullock -> Jennifer Lopez -> Anne Hathaway -> Emma Stone) in the lead roles. Which I guess explains why they like re-done Shakespeare/Austen flicks so much.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @Autochthon

    Silerstone was a 15-year old who just played the lead in The Crush when Aerosmith’s video director saw the film and offered her the lead in a video for one of their songs. She ended up doing three of their videos, along with the equally young and hot Liv Tyler. Clueless director Amy Heckerling loved her in the Aerosmith videos and offered her the role of Cher Horowitz.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Brutusale

    As hot as she is, you understand how Liv Tyler got those roles, right?

  270. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @dfordoom
    @Anon


    A film director can try to make a cult film
     
    If you're consciously trying to make a cult film you will certainly fail.

    Cult films gain their cult status from their fans, not from the film-maker.

    Replies: @Anon

    If you’re consciously trying to make a cult film you will certainly fail.

    Usually but there are exceptions.

    Anything Lynch does(with exception of STRAIGHT STORY) is cultish.
    Same with Wes Anderson.
    To an extent, so do the Coens whose movies are never fully mainstream.
    After a series of bombs, M. Night went into indie-cult mode and had two big smashes with low-budget quirky movies.
    Tarantino rebranded cultism into a major brand.
    Edgar Wright paraodies cult genres that become cult movies themselves.
    Amd Romero must have thought NIGHT OF LIVING DEAD is gonna be have a weird reputation.
    Cronenberg and his films too. He is willfully cult.
    I think Sam Fuller and Nicholas Ray were proto-cult directors. They didn’t hide their uniquely eccentric sensibilities.

    Many horror directors think cultish, and their movies gain cult following.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Anon


    Anything Lynch does(with exception of STRAIGHT STORY) is cultish.
     

    I think Sam Fuller and Nicholas Ray were proto-cult directors. They didn’t hide their uniquely eccentric sensibilities.
     
    In the case of Lynch and Fuller I think you're dealing with guys who were just so weird they didn't even know they were weird. They thought that everybody saw the world that way, so I don't think they were being deliberately cultish.

    I think you'll find it's the same with a lot of the really eccentric directors, people like Russ Meyer and Jess Franco and Jean Rollin. They just made the movies they wanted to make without being consciously cultish.

    Tarantino on the other hand just copies things he's seen in other people's cult movies and thinks that will make his movies cult movies. But it doesn't work because it looks self-conscious and contrived. Compare Kill Bill to Lady Snowblood - Lady Snowblood is a film made by a guy with a genuinely distinctive vision, Kill Bill is a film made by a guy desperately trying to convince us that he has a distinctive vision.
  271. @Abe
    I think instead of ROMY & MICHELLE you’re really thinking of CLUELESS? I never saw more than bits and pieces of CLUELESS, but the big talking point at the time was that this was a brilliant reimaginaion of Jane Austen (forgot which novel exactly, though). Alicia Silverstone became a very big deal for half of the 90’s on the strength of this one movie alone, but of course that could have just been the quid pro quo payback from the hype machine of whichever producer she was ‘associated’ with at the time, if it wasn’t Weinstein.

    Overall, just want to second, third, and fourth a lot of the comments here. Based on my wife’s tastes (and basically I am so busy with work, chores, chaueferring the kids, etc. that I don’t have time to watch TV on my own anymore, and everything I see now is a a couples/relationship-building exercise) women don’t do old movies, let alone obscure/weird-o old movies!- outside of a very few culturally-lauded ones that are still generally popular and glamorous. For example, GONE WITH THE WIND or WIZARD OF OZ.

    Men definitely are more nostalgic (I’ve learned not to reminisce too much in front of the wife, as too many memories are still too loaded with negative emotional juju), but also women strongly gravitate to novelty/popularness, so I joke to myself that watching new movies with them is basically watching the same old movie just with whoever are America’s rom-com sweethearts at the moment (Julia Roberts -> Sandra Bullock -> Jennifer Lopez -> Anne Hathaway -> Emma Stone) in the lead roles. Which I guess explains why they like re-done Shakespeare/Austen flicks so much.

    Replies: @Brutusale, @Autochthon

    [W]atching new movies with [females] is basically watching the same old movie just with whoever are America’s rom-com sweethearts at the moment (Julia Roberts → Sandra Bullock → Jennifer Lopez → Anne Hathaway → Emma Stone…) in the leading roles.

    Exactly.. Females rarely innovate; they demand consistency, stability, security, repetition, predictability, etc. They like variety, but only as variations on a theme. (“Ohh, this hunk has blue eyes….”)

    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/h57w3x/stand-up-jennifer-aniston-movies

  272. @Brutusale
    @Abe

    Silerstone was a 15-year old who just played the lead in The Crush when Aerosmith's video director saw the film and offered her the lead in a video for one of their songs. She ended up doing three of their videos, along with the equally young and hot Liv Tyler. Clueless director Amy Heckerling loved her in the Aerosmith videos and offered her the role of Cher Horowitz.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    As hot as she is, you understand how Liv Tyler got those roles, right?

  273. @James Kabala
    @G

    Mean Girls was probably too popular on first release to be considered a cult classic, but it is interesting to see that it, and Anchorman which also still has a following, ranked below forgotten things such as Starsky and Hutch or Along Came Polly (not to mention The Grudge, which is seven places higher than Mean Girls but which I cannot remember that I ever heard of before).

    Replies: @James Kabala

  274. @3g4me
    @European-American

    @230 European-American: "I’m not sure why it has so-so reviews. I think it’s perfect. But I’ll admit I’m generally a sucker for chick flicks, oddly enough. Perhaps because they tend to be fairly conservative. Or because I’m a sentimental idiot."

    I don't give a rat's a$$ for reviews, and I'm not all that crazy for chick flicks (I thought Sleepless in Seattle was incredibly boring). I like the movie because, as you noted, it's looks back fondly on an America when Mom taught her son to dance, and Dad taught him to box, and they both taught him manners and respect while cultivating manliness. (I realize the movie showed Mom slowly going nuts and becoming an alcoholic, but that was from living underground with no other company for all those years, not from the evil patriarchy.)

    The movie's juxtaposition of the various changes up above (from 50s soda shop to hippy joint to new-age whatever) compared to the stability down below was rather clever. The movie doesn't make enormous efforts to be transgressive; it celebrates old-fashioned values such as respect for parents - even if Mom's an alcoholic and Dad's looking for commie spies in the microwave - and the protagonist isn't a wimp or idiot for putting up with them - he's merely a loving son. That, today, is what's transgressive.

    Replies: @European-American

    Agree about Sleepless in Seattle, very dull. I think I could write an essay on why chick flicks (or some significant subclass of them) are surprisingly conservative — pro-marriage, pro-traditional gender roles, etc. On the lines of: Jane Austen (patron saint of many a chick flick) wasn’t exactly a bra-burning revolutionary. But that would require more research than even I could justify or stand!

  275. @3g4me
    @Achmed E. Newman

    @245 Achmed E Newman: "I HATE HATE HATE (TM-Whiskey) TV, so I will look all over for the remote control to cut it off, if no one’s watching, or just pull the plug if I can’t find the RC. "

    My kind of guy! You really should pull the batteries from the remote - I would! I carry a pair of foam earplugs in my purse and prominently insert them whenever I'm forcibly subjected to t.v. or other propaganda (waiting rooms, etc.). I used them last year when I was called for potential jury duty - the films and lectures on "our democracy" had me gagging - and that was before they somehow accidentally ensured that every potential juror with a hijab or Mohammedan name was one of the "random" names chosen as a juror.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Thank you for the kind word, 3G. I will just give you a few links of stuff I’ve written about attempts to avoid the ubiquitous almighty TV:

    In which a salesman cannot believe I don’t want GD TV and walks off the porch on his own volition.

    About TV in the waiting rooms and lobbies.

    I hope you enjoy the humor too. This damn TV everywhere is a real problem for me, and I’ve told people, if they’re gonna ask that “yeah, I turned it off because it’s a bunch of crap!”.

  276. @Anon
    @dfordoom

    If you’re consciously trying to make a cult film you will certainly fail.

    Usually but there are exceptions.

    Anything Lynch does(with exception of STRAIGHT STORY) is cultish.
    Same with Wes Anderson.
    To an extent, so do the Coens whose movies are never fully mainstream.
    After a series of bombs, M. Night went into indie-cult mode and had two big smashes with low-budget quirky movies.
    Tarantino rebranded cultism into a major brand.
    Edgar Wright paraodies cult genres that become cult movies themselves.
    Amd Romero must have thought NIGHT OF LIVING DEAD is gonna be have a weird reputation.
    Cronenberg and his films too. He is willfully cult.
    I think Sam Fuller and Nicholas Ray were proto-cult directors. They didn't hide their uniquely eccentric sensibilities.

    Many horror directors think cultish, and their movies gain cult following.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Anything Lynch does(with exception of STRAIGHT STORY) is cultish.

    I think Sam Fuller and Nicholas Ray were proto-cult directors. They didn’t hide their uniquely eccentric sensibilities.

    In the case of Lynch and Fuller I think you’re dealing with guys who were just so weird they didn’t even know they were weird. They thought that everybody saw the world that way, so I don’t think they were being deliberately cultish.

    I think you’ll find it’s the same with a lot of the really eccentric directors, people like Russ Meyer and Jess Franco and Jean Rollin. They just made the movies they wanted to make without being consciously cultish.

    Tarantino on the other hand just copies things he’s seen in other people’s cult movies and thinks that will make his movies cult movies. But it doesn’t work because it looks self-conscious and contrived. Compare Kill Bill to Lady SnowbloodLady Snowblood is a film made by a guy with a genuinely distinctive vision, Kill Bill is a film made by a guy desperately trying to convince us that he has a distinctive vision.

  277. @whorefinder
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    With one exception---the alpha widows. If a woman is involved with, sleeps with, or dates a man she views as extremely high status, she will hold onto to that memory years down the line and never let it go. Usually, that results in her inability to stay with any other lesser male afterwards, meaning she'll likely be alone. This is doubly true if the girl is less than super attractive, because she'll have very little chance of getting any other alpha to notice her.

    Monica Lewinsky is a very good example. She was a fat Jewish unremarkable chick who got to suck the handsome younger President's little bubba---and got world famous for it.. There was no coming back after that. It's unsurprising she's remained single since then; she probably fantasizes that Bill someday will come back to her, all these years later.

    Music groupies tend to be like that as well.

    Replies: @Lugash

    I doubt she had many men coming after her anyways. Being a slut in private is one thing, being publicly exposed as a slut to the world in the 1990s made her radioactive. One of the business mags at the time interviewed a bunch of HR managers who said they wouldn’t even think of hiring her.

    It’s funny how she was successful(LSE degree in 2006, TedX 2014) right before Hilary was campaigning.

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