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In my review of Adam Rutherford’s book, I wrote:

I would add, however, that some geographic barriers to gene flow were extremely formidable until fairly recent times. For instance, although we know that Vikings briefly sojourned in Canada about a thousand years ago, we’ve yet to find definitive genetic evidence that anybody alive today is descended from a man and woman who were born on opposite sides of the Atlantic before the 15th-century Age of Exploration.

A friend points out this article from the American Journal of Physical Anthropology:

A new subclade of mtDNA haplogroup C1 found in Icelanders: evidence of pre-Columbian contact?

2011 Jan
Ebenesersdóttir SS, Sigurðsson A, Sánchez-Quinto F, Lalueza-Fox C, Stefánsson K, Helgason A.

Although most mtDNA lineages observed in contemporary Icelanders can be traced to neighboring populations in the British Isles and Scandinavia, one may have a more distant origin. This lineage belongs to haplogroup C1, one of a handful that was involved in the settlement of the Americas around 14,000 years ago. Contrary to an initial assumption that this lineage was a recent arrival, preliminary genealogical analyses revealed that the C1 lineage was present in the Icelandic mtDNA pool at least 300 years ago. This raised the intriguing possibility that the Icelandic C1 lineage could be traced to Viking voyages to the Americas that commenced in the 10th century. In an attempt to shed further light on the entry date of the C1 lineage into the Icelandic mtDNA pool and its geographical origin, we used the deCODE Genetics genealogical database to identify additional matrilineal ancestors that carry the C1 lineage and then sequenced the complete mtDNA genome of 11 contemporary C1 carriers from four different matrilines. Our results indicate a latest possible arrival date in Iceland of just prior to 1700 and a likely arrival date centuries earlier. Most surprisingly, we demonstrate that the Icelandic C1 lineage does not belong to any of the four known Native American (C1b, C1c, and C1d) or Asian (C1a) subclades of haplogroup C1. Rather, it is presently the only known member of a new subclade, C1e. While a Native American origin seems most likely for C1e, an Asian or European origin cannot be ruled out.

So it could be that Vikings brought an American Indian (not an Eskimo) woman back from Canada to Iceland around 1000 years ago and her descendants are found in Iceland today. The Icelanders are likely the most DNA-sequenced population in the world due to their having excellent genealogical records so a local company exists to figure out can be determined from their genes.

I haven’t seen any updates on this question in recent years.

 
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  1. Wiki:

    In 2014, a study discovered a new mtDNA subclade C1f from the remains of 3 people found in north-western Russia and dated to 7,500 years ago. It has not been detected in modern populations.

    The study proposed the hypothesis that the sister C1e and C1f subclades had split early from the most recent common ancestor of the C1 clade and had evolved independently. Subclade C1e had a northern European origin. Iceland was settled by the Vikings 1,130 years ago and they had raided heavily into western Russia, where the sister subclade C1f is now know to have resided. They proposed that both subclades were brought to Iceland through the Vikings, however C1e went extinct on mainland northern Europe due to population turnover and its small representation, and subclade C1f went extinct completely

    Source:

    [MORE]

    Der Sarkissian, Clio; Brotherton, Paul; Balanovsky, Oleg; Templeton, Jennifer E. L.; Llamas, Bastien; Soubrier, Julien; Moiseyev, Vyacheslav; Khartanovich, Valery; Cooper, Alan; Haak, Wolfgang (2014). “Mitochondrial Genome Sequencing in Mesolithic North East Europe Unearths a New Sub-Clade within the Broadly Distributed Human Haplogroup C1.”

  2. we’ve yet to find definitive genetic evidence that anybody alive today is descended from a man and woman who were born on opposite sides of the Atlantic before the 15th-century Age of Exploration.

    As far as I understand, there is a ban in effect on testing Amerindian skeletons.

    This is a shame.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What ban on genotyping Natives are you imagining? Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago.
    , @bomag

    As far as I understand, there is a ban in effect on testing Amerindian skeletons.
     
    To let Tribes reclaim and bury various museum relics, Congress passed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act of 1990.

    However, the act has been used by Tribes to claim any and all ancient skeletons found since then, thus shielding them from testing; lest the testing uncover any uncomfortable challenges to the Narrative.

    So I suppose, with Tribal approval, one could test; or find a skeleton no one claims.
  3. Anon[324] • Disclaimer says:

    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic. That is some scary ass piece of ocean, even with GPS and satellite weather. There’s also a genre of YouTube videos made by general aviation pilots making their way to Europe via Iceland in small propeller aircraft, which show ocean passages from above.

    OT

    Re Angela Saini deleting her Twitter: Butthurt women deleting their Twitter accounts has become the modern equivalent of a woman breaking out in tears or fainting as a way to win an argument and get men, and women, to trash the male adversary and supporting the woman. It’s impressive how millennia of evolutionary psychology manages to adapt to new environments.

    • Replies: @anon
    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic.

    It's possible back around the Medieval Climactic Optimum that the North Atlantic was easier to navigate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter:

    There's always at least one of these somewhere around.
    Always.

    https://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/452/279/b4f.jpg
    , @duncsbaby
    This is a video about some Minnesotans and a Norwegian skipper who sailed a Viking ship from the U.S. to Norway in 1982. Even w/some modern conveniences it was no pleasure cruise.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_G2yg80VD4

    , @The Wild Geese Howard

    Re Angela Saini deleting her Twitter: Butthurt women deleting their Twitter accounts has become the modern equivalent of a woman breaking out in tears or fainting as a way to win an argument and get men, and women, to trash the male adversary and supporting the woman.
     
    I'm not sure this works when the self-described victim is being pimped by every major media outlet in the Anglosphere.

    Personally, I think we'd all be happier if dear old Ange spent her abundant energy on much more....pleasurable....activities....
    , @Kratoklastes

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter
     
    ... is a very interesting development - one that probably indicates that someone let her know that her days as a public intellectual were numbered.

    My bet: having the temerity to try to finger-wag at Dawkins, turned out to be a career-ending error. His social circle is unbelievable - and the guy pretty much invented the idea of memes.

    One meme worth quoting: "You Come At The King, You Best Not Miss".

    So like everyone on the planet, I was quite surprised when Dawkins did that tweet about reading Saini's schlock. (His Twitter timeline is one of 3 that I read, and rewarding).

    After a few minutes it struck me that it may have been Gervais-level (or even Jeselnik-level) trolling - the tweet was effectively a mini-commentary on the auto da fé that would be expected of him by Bellarmines in the SJW crowd.

    What better way to 'sic' the Internet Hate Machine on her? With complete, total deniability - in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies that SJWs get when they get a superior man to prostrate themselves.

    .

    It fits with Dawkins' very high intelligence, and his puckish sense of humour.

    Give the fanbase the impression that you - a celebrated, militant (and beloved[1]) rationalist whose entire professional life has been dedicated to science - had understood the requirement to go through the usual self-abasement and genuflection. (As if the initial tweet about eugenics was an error of judgement - lol).

    "This will not stand!" was probably heard in a million parents' basements, whereupon the d0xxing of Saini would have commenced in earnest.

    .

    I might be seeing eggs and counting chickens, but this almost certainly ends her - the same way that Pinker's tear-down ended Malcolm Gladwell.

    Given that she's a typical midwit SJW self-promoter, the shallow pool of Twitter (and its massive reach) is absolutely vital for the likes of her - and it has no memory, so she can't get those followers back just by turning up.

    I have no idea if she (or anyone else) gave an excuse for her departure: a Google of "Why did Angela Saini quit Twitter" produces literally zero useful or relevant information on page 1, which is odd considering how good Google is at search.

    .

    For the moment, it goes in the 'win' column though (along with Gladwell and drug-addled psychosophaster Jordan fucking Peterson).

    Hopefully Brian Cox and Neil de Grasse Tyson are next for the block: they are as irritating as Michio Kaku and David Suzuki.

    [1] Do not think for a second that 'beloved' is over-egging the pudding, when it comes to the affection (rightly) directed at Dawkins by his fans.

    I fancy myself as a brutal judgemental cunt when it comes to 'public intellectuals', but the only fault I have ever detected in Dawkins was that he was prepared to have Christopher Hitchens - a literally-third-rate pretentious hack fuckwit - in his inner circle. (Probably for US exposure, because Yanks think Hitchens was smart because he was an Islamophobe who had no issues with neoconservatism).

    Why 'literally-third-rate'? Simple, silly - he took a Third at Balliol. Terrific college, but even in the 1970 a Third in PPE marked you out as an intellectual also-ran - it's basically an Oxford Fail.

    In S01E05 of "Yes, Prime Minister", Sir Humphrey said "A second at Oxford counts as an Upper Second, at least.", but even he would not have employed a Third (even though his fictional college - Baillie - was clearly modelled on Balliol).

    inb4 "Hitchens was busy doing cool and exciting things" - so was Boris Johnson: he was head of the Union, played rugby for Bailliol, and he barely missed out on a First (and in 'Greats', not fucking PPE). And he was a King's Scholar at Eton, and a Pop.

    Not bad for a part-Turk deafie Yank (TIL he was born in the USA: I think Springsteen might have written a song about it KEK).

    All Hitchens did was experiment with Marxism and bumming - if he was genuinely half-bright he would have got a First (especially in PPE).
  4. Interesting. It would be more newsworthy (if proven) if the Vikings/Icelanders didn’t bring back an American Indian woman they encountered in their stay in N. America.

    In general Vikings raided and took slaves. Females were highly desired for obvious reasons. This slave raiding mostly happened before the circa 1000 AD Christianizing of the Vikings. However this was because Christians (like Muslims or Jews) weren’t supposed to enslave their fellow co-coreligionists. Native American Indians wouldn’t qualify.

    But slavery probably wasn’t the process, if an Indian female was taken to Iceland. Pocahontas wasn’t enslaved. The DNA source woman could have married a Viking and simply returned with him. We’ll never know.

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn’t have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn’t survive long enough to pass along DNA.

    But modern style humans will boink nearly everything. Neanderthals, Denisovans, anything or anyone who runs too slow. So modern DNA tells us. And for most of mankind’s history, taking female slaves from enemies was a major form of booty. So “booty” was booty.

    Hey, maybe Elizabeth Warren is partly Icelandic? So, not necessarily a liar?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada.
     
    A good one.
    , @Paleo Liberal
    Many of the tribes in that area no longer have any full-blooded members at all. Disease and warfare wiped out entire tribes. Mixed race Indians were far more likely to survive both war and disease.

    Thus it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that some mixed race Indians have some Viking blood which is hidden amongst the rest of their European blood. Recall that the Greenland Vikings had a very high percentage of Irish ancestry due to kidnappings of Irish women, and many of the remaining mixed race Indians intermarried with the Irish.
    , @JohnPlywood

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn’t have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn’t survive long enough to pass along DNA.
     
    Are you high? Almost all East coast Amerindian males have European paternal haplogroups.
    , @nymom
    I think women usually chose the Alpha males to mate with...so assuming a Viking managed to make it to survive in an Indian tribe he would have been a solitary example, probably not an Alpha...maybe even himself a slave.

    Generally speaking woman won't mate with a slave unless they are enslaved themselves.

    Even here in the US I believe it was rare for a free woman to mate with a slave. Of course for a woman to mate with a slave owner held the possibility of a step up in her status. Thus, I think if we had a way of tracing it genetically in the US, we would probably find that most bi-raciality (if there is such a word) descended through the male line of white men with black women...

    Although I know today the opposite is often true; but that's another story...
  5. Anon[324] • Disclaimer says:

    This woman is in charge of preserving and curating Francis Galton’s papers. Yikes! If I were a researcher I’d get in there quickly before material starts to go walkabout into the shredder. I wonder if you need to be vetted for political correctness to gain access to the papers? Is a diversity statement required? You’d like to think that people in such positions are boring, neutral personalities who are committed to preserving history, leaving the interpretation up to others.

    (Apparently what triggered the sequence of events that led to Angela Saini leaving Twitter were tweets by her about Das that subtweeted Rutherford.)

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    https://twitter.com/littlegaudy/status/1229344370207399937
    , @Ian Smith
    Sub-Continental women are some of the most shrill SJWs. Ugh.
  6. Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    Looks more East Asian or Eskimo. A lot of Scandos and Finns from the far north have narrow almond eyes. The sun is always on the horizon, so it helps if your eyes are permanently squinting.
    , @Mini Mike's Mini Mike
    Her eyes and black hair have to come from Inuit blood. That woman is the epitome of unique; her look, her sound, her style, her outlook, ideas, demeanor, and cultural heritage. Rare.
    , @Anonymous
    There is less distance to travel East-West near the Arctic Circle, making Northern Asian-Scandinavian migration more likely than one would think. Scandinavian Laplanders have epicanthal folds like Asians.
    , @The Alarmist

    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?
     
    That's setting the bar low, don't ya think?
    , @Unladen Swallow
    Laplander influence I always assumed, they are not uncommon in higher latitudes in Scandinavian territory.
    , @Gordo
    Bjork has Sammi blood, you know those reindeer herding guys from the Scandinavian North.

    You can google them.

  7. I wonder who the first Indian to go to Europe and come back alive was.

    I don’t believe Pocahontas lasted quite 40 weeks in England, though she does have living descendants from a half-breed son born in Virginia.

    • Replies: @Foreign Expert
    Maybe Squanto?, but surely the Spanish must have transported a few before 1620.
    , @duncsbaby
    Squanto? I don't remember the timeline but I do remember reading a juvenile biography about him when I was a kid. The Scholastic Book Service was terrific. I'd be surprised if that book isn't out of print now as it generally shaped America's early history as a pretty good thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squanto
    , @Paleo Liberal
    Edith Wilson was a descendant of Pocahontas, from John Rolfe's kid.

    Nancy Reagan was also a descendant of John Rolfe. It is not clear if her ancestor was Pocahontas or a different wife. More likely the latter.
  8. C1e is certainly American Indian. There is no way a mtDNA haplotype happens to be found in a few Icelanders and no other Europeans. It is interesting that mitochondrial haplotypes are not more randomly spread out, given the supposed gene flow between Europe, East Asia, and Africa in the pre-modern world. Evidence that only men traveled long distances, or evidence that the putative gene flow is spurious?

    Speaking of, given that alleles correlated with light skin in Europe and Asia are different. Looking just at European SNPs, one would think Asians were coal black (according to Cochran). That’s why some people who are half East Asian and half white on both sides are much darker than their parents.

    Why are central Eurasians, supposedly admixed Caucasians and Asians not much more varied in skin tone? Do they have a mix of both sets of alleles? Did some Caucasian and some Asian ones go to fixation? Just one set?

  9. Ebenesersdóttir SS, Sigurðsson A…

    I understand this is the protocol for academic articles, but it really looks stupid when used with Icelanders’ literal patronymics. Like those old Islamic travelers known only as Ibn-This and Ibn-That.

    …although we know that Vikings briefly sojourned in Canada about a thousand years ago, we’ve yet to find definitive genetic evidence that anybody alive today is descended from a man and woman who were born on opposite sides of the Atlantic before the 15th-century Age of Exploration.

    I would think that Greenland would be the place to look for that. Vikings were there for centuries (following global warming from late-Roman horse flatulence) and the local women are said to be quite accomodating to guests.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Greenland was also my first thought, but then even though the natives are ancient Siberian immigrants, it had significant pre-1492 contact with the Old World, so it may not qualify for Steve's purposes.

    Greenland also struck me as a possible source of the C1e subclade, since Greenland and Iceland were both part of Denmark's polity up till recently while Greenland's communication with the North American mainland was pretty limited, but Hail's explanation above seems more likely.

    P.S. to Steve: a word or more seems to be missing from the second to last sentence.
  10. OT: Would love an iSteve take on this article. Doesn’t mention immigration but I think it gets into the issues of American decline and touches on Sailer themes of Affordable Family Formation.

    https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2020/02/the-cost-of-thriving/

  11. @Reg Cæsar

    Ebenesersdóttir SS, Sigurðsson A...
     
    I understand this is the protocol for academic articles, but it really looks stupid when used with Icelanders' literal patronymics. Like those old Islamic travelers known only as Ibn-This and Ibn-That.

    ...although we know that Vikings briefly sojourned in Canada about a thousand years ago, we’ve yet to find definitive genetic evidence that anybody alive today is descended from a man and woman who were born on opposite sides of the Atlantic before the 15th-century Age of Exploration.

     

    I would think that Greenland would be the place to look for that. Vikings were there for centuries (following global warming from late-Roman horse flatulence) and the local women are said to be quite accomodating to guests.

    Greenland was also my first thought, but then even though the natives are ancient Siberian immigrants, it had significant pre-1492 contact with the Old World, so it may not qualify for Steve’s purposes.

    Greenland also struck me as a possible source of the C1e subclade, since Greenland and Iceland were both part of Denmark’s polity up till recently while Greenland’s communication with the North American mainland was pretty limited, but Hail’s explanation above seems more likely.

    P.S. to Steve: a word or more seems to be missing from the second to last sentence.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Wiki has Greenland Inuit coming from Canada. I have heard of this elsewhere, I was checking it because of something I had read about kayaking which went off on a tangent about Greenland Inuit.
    (But this would make them the group to exclude: the big deal would be, like, a Narragansett in Reykjavik.)
  12. …so it may not qualify for Steve’s purposes.

    At those latitudes, there are no “opposite sides of the Atlantic”. It’s all short hops from the British Isles to the Faroes to Iceland to Greenland to Baffin Island and Labrador. It’s the roof of the Atlantic.

    Geologically, Greenland and Hokkaido are part of North America.

    • Replies: @I Have Scinde
    I agree, but my vague recollection from Samuel Eliot Morison's European Discovery of America, the Northern Voyages is that the Norse explorers like Eric the Red and son typically practiced longitudinal sailing, picking a latitude and heading west. Not very efficient from a great circle viewpoint, but it gives clear definitions of sides of the Atlantic. Of course, it has been many years, so I may be misremembering what I read.

    The sagas do not seem to imply mixing with natives in Newfoundland either, to my recollection, and I seem to recall the colonization being portrayed as short-lived. But who knows what was not written down.
    , @Autochthon
    All true. Nevertheless, the Helcaraxë was as imposing as the Sahara or the Himalayas until relatively recently.
    , @JMcG
    Yes, Farley Mowatt wrote an interesting book called “The Farfarers”. Which postulated European visits to North America. I don’t think it’s taken very seriously by scholars, but interesting nonetheless.
    , @donut
    "Geologically, Greenland and Hokkaido are part of North America.?" Really ? Greenland OK but how is Hokkaido part of North America ?
  13. There is the odd record of possible Greenlanders or Amerindians washing up in Galway in the 1470s, but no other records than one made by Christopher Columbus who just happened to encounter trans-Atlantic travellers. (Alternatively you could argue this encounter may have inspired him rather than being the world’s greatest coincidence.)

    Then again Columbus and other sailors wrote a lot of nonsense about weird encounters on their travels and nobody else seems to have been much impressed enough to record this and no trace of these two genetically has been identified so far.

    http://www.strangehistory.net/2012/11/17/american-indians-in-galway-ireland/

  14. Bjork.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910

    Bjork.
     
    https://img.discogs.com/fUQ3tIxMllYzx5ZaSxEfkyPiJWY=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1499550-1263432414.jpeg.jpg

    https://img.discogs.com/BsSEA6wGRuF7G2dEQ7BqbOQx9z4=/fit-in/350x361/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1569638-1229172650.jpeg.jpg

    https://img.discogs.com/zrmsmIR4Ap0SINNTd2hJ_Yk5Yh8=/fit-in/500x500/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-1629284-1233607000.jpeg.jpg
    , @Cagey Beast
    Yup, Bjork immediately sprang to mind for me too.
  15. @Reg Cæsar

    ...so it may not qualify for Steve’s purposes.
     
    At those latitudes, there are no "opposite sides of the Atlantic". It's all short hops from the British Isles to the Faroes to Iceland to Greenland to Baffin Island and Labrador. It's the roof of the Atlantic.

    Geologically, Greenland and Hokkaido are part of North America.

    I agree, but my vague recollection from Samuel Eliot Morison’s European Discovery of America, the Northern Voyages is that the Norse explorers like Eric the Red and son typically practiced longitudinal sailing, picking a latitude and heading west. Not very efficient from a great circle viewpoint, but it gives clear definitions of sides of the Atlantic. Of course, it has been many years, so I may be misremembering what I read.

    The sagas do not seem to imply mixing with natives in Newfoundland either, to my recollection, and I seem to recall the colonization being portrayed as short-lived. But who knows what was not written down.

    • Replies: @Hail

    who knows what was not written down.
     
    Even that which is written down, or is highly probable, is hard to prove. The presence of a Viking settlement in North America, long suspected, was only confirmed in the 1960s with archaeological spadework (literally, as they say), at Newfoundland.

    Many still believe in the basic message of the Kensington Runestone, which is that other back-and-forth crossings occurred in post-Viking centuries. If you ever examine the pro-Kensington Runestone community's purported evidence, some of it does seem compelling. It's one of those never-quite-fading controversies, like the Shakespeare authorship question.

    What would be smoking-gun evidence? A European skeleton that dates to pre-1492, I would think. Or a presumed- and morphologically-Amerind male skeleton dating to pre-1492 that is tested to have R1b, etc.

  16. Though I don’t know of any genetic study being done, at least one researcher/author has been studying and publishing on the archaeological proof that the Uchee, a southeastern American indian tribe originally came to North America from northern Europe. The tribe’s oral history tradition states that they came here across the Atlantic for the direction of the sunrise.

    The Uchee language is unlike any other indian tribe’s language, having words in common with Scandinavian languages and petroglyphs and mounds attributed to the Uchi are very similar to mounds and petroglyphs in places like Nyköping, Sweden, but also some of their petroglyphs contain characters identical to those in southwestern Ireland.

    https://apalacheresearch.com/2019/07/23/the-uchee-yuchi-everything-you-wanted-to-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/

    • Replies: @Federalist
    That article was very interesting. I guess no one will be allowed to look into it scientifically because the results might violate our secular theology.
  17. Anonymous[100] • Disclaimer says:

    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the “New World” lagged so far behind the “Old World” in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were — and continue to be — relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it’s not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0f/20/68/0f20685380037592514ea5002ca798ac.jpg

    Painting with a brush that conflates Chile and Argentina with Guatalexico is risible. Most South Americans are too busy being free and raising families to "be important." In any event, they are not rushing to chop off their boys' penises, deny sexual dimorphism, or "liberate" Afghanistan from itself.

    Get out more.

    Then look around you at North America and Western Europe and tell me what "excellence happening" amounts to.
    , @prime noticer
    how is this any different than South Asia. there are more people in Indonesia, Pakistan, and Bangladesh than Latin America, yet nothing of any value or importance ever happens there either. or in 99% of India for that matter. essentially, it's total radio silence from these places, and if everybody there disappeared, we wouldn't even know. zero contributions to any field or endeavor. they literally do nothing but breathe air, eat food, make more of themselves, then die. with their numbers stacking up every decade.

    we really only even know what's going on in the Muslim world because it's chaos. they pretty much do nothing other than create disorder that spills over into the rest of the world.

    africans did literally nothing for 100,000 years, and if it weren't for Europeans inventing all the global sports, we'd still never hear from Africa, except about how it's always in crisis. we barely hear from them anyway, because the majority of great african athletes are Americans, not africans from africa. for that matter, Aborigines do nothing, and never did anything in 60,000 years on Australia, and there's the science and data to show it.

    basically, most humans do nothing. doing nothing is their default state, just like any other animal. doing something is what is unusual, not the other way around. that's why everybody gets compared to the Europeans. they did the most by far, by a ludicrous margin over everybody else combined. they are the reference. it's totally unrealistic to compare other humans to them the way social scientists and economists and political policy makers do. it would be like demanding that short fat kids turn into Hall of Fame athletes, and if it's not happening, well it should, so there's a problem somewhere.

    , @Peter Akuleyev
    THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.

    Even as recently as 50 years ago this was not the case at all. Latin America had a much higher global profile than it does today, particularly in popular culture. Argentina was the country of the tango, top athletes, gauchos, Borges, Evita Peron and fabulous steaks. It was actually a fairly glamorous place.

    In the 1960s and into the 1970s Latin America was arguably producing the finest writers in the world: Borges, Cortazar, Vargas Llosa, Garcia Marquez, Octavio Paz, and so on.

    Back in 1972 any Presidential candidate could have named Luis Echeverria without thinking about it. Mexico had recently hosted the Olympics, was the country of Zorro, fabulous beach resorts and the place where Americans in legal trouble knew they could run to. Mexico was also just coming off two decades of 7% economic growth - "the Mexican Miracle" - and every American businessman saw it as a market of the future.

    Question is what the hell happened? In Mexico or Peru you could argue the indigenous population eventually outnumbered the conquistador class and dragged the whole society down, but that doesn't explain why Argentina has also fallen off the map. There are other factors - the rise of Asia and the opening of the economies in the Soviet bloc combined to make Latin American less relevant by comparison; the hierarchical stratified societies of large land holders in predominantly agricultural countries like Argentina or Mexico were once considered charmingly aristocratic and worthy of emulation, but are increasingly obsolete in a world of digital technology and mechanized farming; and of course drug trafficking and the associated violence has scarred the whole continent.
    , @Anonymous
    Just during the Trump presidency, US has thrown tantrums abut muh Southern border which US soldiers can't guard, and demanding that Mexico guards it. Also, Trump essentially reintroduced trade barriers with Mexico because, with NAFTA-guaranteed free trade, Mexicans were building cheaper cars. But sure, go ahead and say that Mexico amounts for nothing. Why go to a Mexico dentist, when Remote Area Medical will get to your rustbelt town in the next few years? Does Mexico City have such highlights in their social calendar?
    , @IHTG
    Maybe Americans are the dullards for not caring about their own backyard.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes.
     
    Dude, I can do that walking around Dover, NJ for five minutes, taking in all their flat, smashed looking faces and dead, coal-black eyes.
    , @Abe

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico.
     
    Watched the debate on our new Black Friday 75” UHD TV . The talking heads of the candidates were substantially larger than life on our screen and even at a mere 2K resolution plenty disturbing. What’s up with Bloomberg’s grandma mustache, for example? He seemed to have this sort of unevenly spaced series of fine white hairs all across his upper lip which looked somehow to be subcutaneous.

    Bernie is one of the candidates I actually ended up liking less after the debate. He honestly seems like a Popular Front-era dullard, his brain still stuck on the freshest 1959-vintage PARTISAN REVIEW hot takes, like when he just had to correct Bloomie about the differences between communism and his own democratic socialism. Would love to see someone with Trump’s ballz and, say, Christopher Caldwell’s erudition troll Bernie on-stage over whether in office he’ll posthumously exonerate Sacco and Vanzetti and see Bernie go into a live pedantic death spiral.

    But, yeah, funny to watch Klobuchar (at our viewing size) visibly shake under all of Buttigieg’s needling. The meltdown about not remembering the Mexican President’s name was classic! Klobuchar very reasonably and graciously tried to field it as an innocent mistake, but when the Telemundo bimbo wouldn’t let up, you could see this realization cross her face like, oh crap, this isn’t your dad’s old Dumbya/Dan Quayle too-dumb-for-the-nuclear-football style of gotcha, it’s one of them new fangled how-dare-you-dishonor-someone-more-intersectional-than-thou!! grovel-able moments. The fleeting battle between lust for power and any last shreds of self-respect fighting it across the horsey battlefield of her face was priceless! Wonder if Bloomie bribed the Telemundo bimbo to lay that ambush on Klobuchar. Wonder if she gave him back a beej as “change”...

  18. @Almost Missouri
    Greenland was also my first thought, but then even though the natives are ancient Siberian immigrants, it had significant pre-1492 contact with the Old World, so it may not qualify for Steve's purposes.

    Greenland also struck me as a possible source of the C1e subclade, since Greenland and Iceland were both part of Denmark's polity up till recently while Greenland's communication with the North American mainland was pretty limited, but Hail's explanation above seems more likely.

    P.S. to Steve: a word or more seems to be missing from the second to last sentence.

    Wiki has Greenland Inuit coming from Canada. I have heard of this elsewhere, I was checking it because of something I had read about kayaking which went off on a tangent about Greenland Inuit.
    (But this would make them the group to exclude: the big deal would be, like, a Narragansett in Reykjavik.)

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    As far as we know, the Inuit came to Greenland AFTER the Vikings by several centuries.

    From what I can tell, there were several waves of migrations to Greenland. The Vikings and the Dorset 2 peoples came at about the same time, but to different parts of Greenland. Around AD 1200, the Thule people -- ancestors of the modern Greenlanders -- came to Greenland. They were better adapted to the cold, and as things got colder, they more or less pushed everyone else out. The Vikings were all gone by around AD 1450.


    https://visitgreenland.com/about-greenland/migration-greenland/
  19. Amazing stories of White adventurers and conquerors taking on a new land. I celebrate them. Imagine being so evil, as a White person, that you actually condemned other White people for their success vis-a-vis another race?

    Imagine getting up an army to go kill your fellow Whites for the sake of an alien race. But this would surely be science fiction.

    Yet there were White Frenchmen who cheered the Black Haitian revolutionaries who slaughtered their White countrymen. Shame!

  20. Just as likely that Native Americans and Siberians have a lot of DNA in common, and this finding is reflecting Siberian input into Scandinavia. Which I suspect is underestimated.

    My fathers paternal origins are around the border between Norway/Sweden and and his Y haplogroup is a weird subclade of N most commonly found in the Nenets tribe, who are essentially Russian eskimos.

  21. @obwandiyag
    Bjork.

    Bjork.

  22. @I Have Scinde
    I agree, but my vague recollection from Samuel Eliot Morison's European Discovery of America, the Northern Voyages is that the Norse explorers like Eric the Red and son typically practiced longitudinal sailing, picking a latitude and heading west. Not very efficient from a great circle viewpoint, but it gives clear definitions of sides of the Atlantic. Of course, it has been many years, so I may be misremembering what I read.

    The sagas do not seem to imply mixing with natives in Newfoundland either, to my recollection, and I seem to recall the colonization being portrayed as short-lived. But who knows what was not written down.

    who knows what was not written down.

    Even that which is written down, or is highly probable, is hard to prove. The presence of a Viking settlement in North America, long suspected, was only confirmed in the 1960s with archaeological spadework (literally, as they say), at Newfoundland.

    Many still believe in the basic message of the Kensington Runestone, which is that other back-and-forth crossings occurred in post-Viking centuries. If you ever examine the pro-Kensington Runestone community’s purported evidence, some of it does seem compelling. It’s one of those never-quite-fading controversies, like the Shakespeare authorship question.

    What would be smoking-gun evidence? A European skeleton that dates to pre-1492, I would think. Or a presumed- and morphologically-Amerind male skeleton dating to pre-1492 that is tested to have R1b, etc.

    • Agree: Muggles
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    If you ever examine the pro-Kensington Runestone community’s purported evidence, some of it does seem compelling.
     
    If the original claim is incredible, the hoax story is even more so.
    , @syonredux
    The Kensington Runestone is an obvious fake:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWvRtlyTaUc&t=8s
    , @JohnPlywood
    R1a or I2/I1 is more likely than R1b if pre-1492.
  23. @Reg Cæsar

    ...so it may not qualify for Steve’s purposes.
     
    At those latitudes, there are no "opposite sides of the Atlantic". It's all short hops from the British Isles to the Faroes to Iceland to Greenland to Baffin Island and Labrador. It's the roof of the Atlantic.

    Geologically, Greenland and Hokkaido are part of North America.

    All true. Nevertheless, the Helcaraxë was as imposing as the Sahara or the Himalayas until relatively recently.

  24. @Hail

    who knows what was not written down.
     
    Even that which is written down, or is highly probable, is hard to prove. The presence of a Viking settlement in North America, long suspected, was only confirmed in the 1960s with archaeological spadework (literally, as they say), at Newfoundland.

    Many still believe in the basic message of the Kensington Runestone, which is that other back-and-forth crossings occurred in post-Viking centuries. If you ever examine the pro-Kensington Runestone community's purported evidence, some of it does seem compelling. It's one of those never-quite-fading controversies, like the Shakespeare authorship question.

    What would be smoking-gun evidence? A European skeleton that dates to pre-1492, I would think. Or a presumed- and morphologically-Amerind male skeleton dating to pre-1492 that is tested to have R1b, etc.

    If you ever examine the pro-Kensington Runestone community’s purported evidence, some of it does seem compelling.

    If the original claim is incredible, the hoax story is even more so.

  25. Where do the ice-age Solutreans (clovis point) fit into Amerindian genes, particularly in the east?

  26. @Anonymous
    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the "New World" lagged so far behind the "Old World" in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were --- and continue to be --- relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it's not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    Painting with a brush that conflates Chile and Argentina with Guatalexico is risible. Most South Americans are too busy being free and raising families to “be important.” In any event, they are not rushing to chop off their boys’ penises, deny sexual dimorphism, or “liberate” Afghanistan from itself.

    Get out more.

    Then look around you at North America and Western Europe and tell me what “excellence happening” amounts to.

  27. @Hail

    who knows what was not written down.
     
    Even that which is written down, or is highly probable, is hard to prove. The presence of a Viking settlement in North America, long suspected, was only confirmed in the 1960s with archaeological spadework (literally, as they say), at Newfoundland.

    Many still believe in the basic message of the Kensington Runestone, which is that other back-and-forth crossings occurred in post-Viking centuries. If you ever examine the pro-Kensington Runestone community's purported evidence, some of it does seem compelling. It's one of those never-quite-fading controversies, like the Shakespeare authorship question.

    What would be smoking-gun evidence? A European skeleton that dates to pre-1492, I would think. Or a presumed- and morphologically-Amerind male skeleton dating to pre-1492 that is tested to have R1b, etc.

    The Kensington Runestone is an obvious fake:

    • Replies: @Hail
    That is an academic consensus position since the early 20th century and so has the weight of tradition believing it was fake. Consider looking into what the believers say.

    I would not be so quick to it is an "obvious fake." More serious people than you may think believe it is an open question. There were people in the 20th century before the 1960s discovery of the Viking sites in Newfoundland who believed the idea of any Viking settlement on the North American continent was also a hoax.

    One good argument against the Kensington Stone is, if it were authentic, why was it only found by a man of recent Scandinavian origin with presumable ethnic motive to fake it?

  28. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: How about more threads on the horny exotics in congress, Steve.

    https://pjmedia.com/trending/ilhan-omars-sad-tawdry-affair-that-led-to-her-divorce/

    I feel like Omar and AOC (plus that other white bread freshman nympho who was forced out of congress already) are a new type of Washington politician that is here to stay.

    They are young, female, hot, horny, unethical and just plain immature. You might say “wild ass”…….

    Feature of the emerging idiocracy?

    Anyway their antics make for good blogging.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    Well, it IS called "Congress".
    , @Paleo Liberal
    There have always been all sorts of antics among members of Congress. Those of us of a certain age can remember the Wilbur Mills episode with a Latin American stripper named Fannie Fox. Having more women and non-whites simply means the scandals are not exclusive to white men.

    Also, the scandals might be covered up a bit less these days. The Mills episode was uncovered because a Washington reporter happened to see the DC Police send Mills on his way after catching him driving drunk with a stripper in his car.

    A side note: my father met Wilbur Mills twice — once before Mills’ alcoholism and once during. My father worked for the government and had to occasionally work with Congress. The first time he said Mills was one of the most brilliant men he ever met. The second time he was a drunken shadow of his former self.
  29. @Anonymous
    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the "New World" lagged so far behind the "Old World" in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were --- and continue to be --- relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it's not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    how is this any different than South Asia. there are more people in Indonesia, Pakistan, and Bangladesh than Latin America, yet nothing of any value or importance ever happens there either. or in 99% of India for that matter. essentially, it’s total radio silence from these places, and if everybody there disappeared, we wouldn’t even know. zero contributions to any field or endeavor. they literally do nothing but breathe air, eat food, make more of themselves, then die. with their numbers stacking up every decade.

    we really only even know what’s going on in the Muslim world because it’s chaos. they pretty much do nothing other than create disorder that spills over into the rest of the world.

    africans did literally nothing for 100,000 years, and if it weren’t for Europeans inventing all the global sports, we’d still never hear from Africa, except about how it’s always in crisis. we barely hear from them anyway, because the majority of great african athletes are Americans, not africans from africa. for that matter, Aborigines do nothing, and never did anything in 60,000 years on Australia, and there’s the science and data to show it.

    basically, most humans do nothing. doing nothing is their default state, just like any other animal. doing something is what is unusual, not the other way around. that’s why everybody gets compared to the Europeans. they did the most by far, by a ludicrous margin over everybody else combined. they are the reference. it’s totally unrealistic to compare other humans to them the way social scientists and economists and political policy makers do. it would be like demanding that short fat kids turn into Hall of Fame athletes, and if it’s not happening, well it should, so there’s a problem somewhere.

    • Agree: BB753
  30. anon[193] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic. That is some scary ass piece of ocean, even with GPS and satellite weather. There's also a genre of YouTube videos made by general aviation pilots making their way to Europe via Iceland in small propeller aircraft, which show ocean passages from above.

    OT

    Re Angela Saini deleting her Twitter: Butthurt women deleting their Twitter accounts has become the modern equivalent of a woman breaking out in tears or fainting as a way to win an argument and get men, and women, to trash the male adversary and supporting the woman. It's impressive how millennia of evolutionary psychology manages to adapt to new environments.

    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic.

    It’s possible back around the Medieval Climactic Optimum that the North Atlantic was easier to navigate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter:

    There’s always at least one of these somewhere around.
    Always.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    I prefer this take on the white knight:

    http://www.reaxxion.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/WhiteKnight.gif
    , @MEH 0910
    https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/status/1230662331325132800
    https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/status/1230665246878183424
  31. According to a recently published Australian(!) book on Iceland, the viking trader Karlsefni had two native American children with him when he set sail for Greenland from Vinland around 1000 AD. Their subsequent fate is not recorded (Saga Land, Richard Fidler and Kari Gislason, HarperCollinspublishers Australia, 2017)

  32. @songbird
    I wonder who the first Indian to go to Europe and come back alive was.

    I don't believe Pocahontas lasted quite 40 weeks in England, though she does have living descendants from a half-breed son born in Virginia.

    Maybe Squanto?, but surely the Spanish must have transported a few before 1620.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Squanto and others were kidnapped from Massachusetts in 1614 by a ships captain Thomas Hunt and taken to Spain. He lived in a monastery then went to England and was back in Mass alive and healthy by 1620.

    The Spanish brought Indians back and forth.

    There must be descendants of Viking and native Americans. There are tales of French and British fishermen working off the coast of Canada during medieval times maybe earlier. Unlike explorers and colonizers, fishermen liked to keep their fishing grounds and activities secret.
    , @songbird
    Thanks, I didn't realize Squanto made the round-trip.

    Guess I must have forgotten it, and got him confused with that other fellow, Samoset. That was when I was in the 2nd Grade, so a long time ago.

    Strange how he survived a few years in Europe (and even London), but only lived a few after he returned.
  33. @Anonymous
    OT: How about more threads on the horny exotics in congress, Steve.

    https://pjmedia.com/trending/ilhan-omars-sad-tawdry-affair-that-led-to-her-divorce/

    I feel like Omar and AOC (plus that other white bread freshman nympho who was forced out of congress already) are a new type of Washington politician that is here to stay.

    They are young, female, hot, horny, unethical and just plain immature. You might say "wild ass".......

    Feature of the emerging idiocracy?

    Anyway their antics make for good blogging.

    Well, it IS called “Congress”.

    • LOL: Federalist
  34. Anonymous[618] • Disclaimer says:

    The idea that North America was founded by Scandinavians seems to be based on taking away any British claims to being the founders of North America, the Australians are also desperate to “prove” that Australia was discovered by anyone other than the British but so far they’ve been unsuccessful in that endeavour.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    Some interesting Dutch tales of shipwreck survivors in one of the appendixes to

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/482224.The_Wreck_of_the_Batavia
    , @Lars Porsena
    I've never heard anyone claim Scandinavians founded North America. Scandinavians had walrus hunting and logging colonies in North America hundreds of years before Columbus (who was not British) discovered the Caribbean and South America. The Norse colonies were ultimately failures and they disappeared by the time of Columbus leaving no surviving trace. However, they have actual archaeological evidence of this now and have for many decades. The vikings were in Canada.
  35. @Foreign Expert
    Maybe Squanto?, but surely the Spanish must have transported a few before 1620.

    Squanto and others were kidnapped from Massachusetts in 1614 by a ships captain Thomas Hunt and taken to Spain. He lived in a monastery then went to England and was back in Mass alive and healthy by 1620.

    The Spanish brought Indians back and forth.

    There must be descendants of Viking and native Americans. There are tales of French and British fishermen working off the coast of Canada during medieval times maybe earlier. Unlike explorers and colonizers, fishermen liked to keep their fishing grounds and activities secret.

  36. @Anon
    This woman is in charge of preserving and curating Francis Galton's papers. Yikes! If I were a researcher I'd get in there quickly before material starts to go walkabout into the shredder. I wonder if you need to be vetted for political correctness to gain access to the papers? Is a diversity statement required? You'd like to think that people in such positions are boring, neutral personalities who are committed to preserving history, leaving the interpretation up to others.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPaalX30k7Y

    (Apparently what triggered the sequence of events that led to Angela Saini leaving Twitter were tweets by her about Das that subtweeted Rutherford.)

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @El Dato
    That Tweet by La Dame Das should be framed ... "virtuous lifestyle od the twiterrati in the early 21st century"
  37. @Anonymous
    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the "New World" lagged so far behind the "Old World" in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were --- and continue to be --- relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it's not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.

    Even as recently as 50 years ago this was not the case at all. Latin America had a much higher global profile than it does today, particularly in popular culture. Argentina was the country of the tango, top athletes, gauchos, Borges, Evita Peron and fabulous steaks. It was actually a fairly glamorous place.

    In the 1960s and into the 1970s Latin America was arguably producing the finest writers in the world: Borges, Cortazar, Vargas Llosa, Garcia Marquez, Octavio Paz, and so on.

    Back in 1972 any Presidential candidate could have named Luis Echeverria without thinking about it. Mexico had recently hosted the Olympics, was the country of Zorro, fabulous beach resorts and the place where Americans in legal trouble knew they could run to. Mexico was also just coming off two decades of 7% economic growth – “the Mexican Miracle” – and every American businessman saw it as a market of the future.

    Question is what the hell happened? In Mexico or Peru you could argue the indigenous population eventually outnumbered the conquistador class and dragged the whole society down, but that doesn’t explain why Argentina has also fallen off the map. There are other factors – the rise of Asia and the opening of the economies in the Soviet bloc combined to make Latin American less relevant by comparison; the hierarchical stratified societies of large land holders in predominantly agricultural countries like Argentina or Mexico were once considered charmingly aristocratic and worthy of emulation, but are increasingly obsolete in a world of digital technology and mechanized farming; and of course drug trafficking and the associated violence has scarred the whole continent.

    • Replies: @Alden
    19th early 20th century Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world because of the McCormick reaper, railroads and refrigeration which enabled Argentina to export wheat and beef to Europe. Then after WW2 the common market and EU agricultural subsidies enabled Europe to grow more food than it needed.
    , @BB753
    There's been a considerable demographic and ethnic shift in Argentina. Today, it is considerably less white than half a century ago. On one hand, European immigration dried up, and the mainly mestizo population from rural inland regions became more fertile and began moving to Buenos Aires and other large cities, intermixing with European Argentinians, those one or two generations removed from the Old Country. Add to that a sizable immigration from Paraguay, Bolivia and Chile during the last 40 years, and Argentinian IQ and productivity have taken a huge hit, not to mention the totally corrupt political system and obsolete industries and infrastructures.
    In 2020, Argentina looks more and more like the rest of South America than like Europe.
    , @Almost Missouri

    "what the hell happened?"
     
    Cheap transport and comms causing brain drain? I keep meeting talented Latin Americans, but not in Latin America. Maybe Latin America can no longer get the critical mass of talent together. For individuals of ability nowadays it is just easier to move to the Global North than to try to build up the homeland.
    , @Art Deco
    The demographic weight in Latin America has generally resided in four countries: Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, and Argentina. As we speak, about 2/3 of the population of Latin America lives there. The ratio of their per capita product to that of the United States has been as follows:


    1926

    Brazil: 0.09
    Mexico: 0.21
    Colombia: 0.18
    Argentina: 0.68

    1956

    Brazil: 0.11
    Mexico: 0.18
    Colombia: 0.19
    Argentina: 0.50

    1986

    Brazil: 0.17
    Mexico: 0.28
    Colombia: 0.19
    Argentina: 0.39

    2016

    Brazil: 0.25
    Mexico: 0.30
    Colombia: 0.24
    Argentina: 0.35


    The most affluent Latin American territories (measured as a share of American production per capita) have been as follows

    1926: Argentina (0.68), Uruguay (0.40), Cuba (0.35), Chile (0.35), Costa Rica (0.26)

    1956: Argentina (0.50), Uruguay (0.43), Puerto Rico (0.36), Venezuela (0.30), Chile (0.27), Cuba (0.23)

    1986: Puerto Rico (0.59), Argentina (0.39), Mexico (0.28), Uruguay (0.25), Venezuela (0.23)

    2016: Puerto Rico (0.66), Panama (0.41), Chile (0.40), Uruguay (0.38), Argentina (0.35), Mexico (0.30), Dominican Republic (0.27), Costa Rica (0.26).


    The data for Venezuela are misleading because they are driven by natural resource bonanzas. Those for Chile need to be subject to mild discounting for the same reason. Puerto Rico has grisly dysfunctional labor markets.
    , @EdwardM
    Good points. It's also interesting that Latin America has somehow remained mostly immune from the Muslim plague, while every other corner of the world has succumbed. Why is that?
  38. @Peter Akuleyev
    THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.

    Even as recently as 50 years ago this was not the case at all. Latin America had a much higher global profile than it does today, particularly in popular culture. Argentina was the country of the tango, top athletes, gauchos, Borges, Evita Peron and fabulous steaks. It was actually a fairly glamorous place.

    In the 1960s and into the 1970s Latin America was arguably producing the finest writers in the world: Borges, Cortazar, Vargas Llosa, Garcia Marquez, Octavio Paz, and so on.

    Back in 1972 any Presidential candidate could have named Luis Echeverria without thinking about it. Mexico had recently hosted the Olympics, was the country of Zorro, fabulous beach resorts and the place where Americans in legal trouble knew they could run to. Mexico was also just coming off two decades of 7% economic growth - "the Mexican Miracle" - and every American businessman saw it as a market of the future.

    Question is what the hell happened? In Mexico or Peru you could argue the indigenous population eventually outnumbered the conquistador class and dragged the whole society down, but that doesn't explain why Argentina has also fallen off the map. There are other factors - the rise of Asia and the opening of the economies in the Soviet bloc combined to make Latin American less relevant by comparison; the hierarchical stratified societies of large land holders in predominantly agricultural countries like Argentina or Mexico were once considered charmingly aristocratic and worthy of emulation, but are increasingly obsolete in a world of digital technology and mechanized farming; and of course drug trafficking and the associated violence has scarred the whole continent.

    19th early 20th century Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world because of the McCormick reaper, railroads and refrigeration which enabled Argentina to export wheat and beef to Europe. Then after WW2 the common market and EU agricultural subsidies enabled Europe to grow more food than it needed.

  39. @Hail

    we’ve yet to find definitive genetic evidence that anybody alive today is descended from a man and woman who were born on opposite sides of the Atlantic before the 15th-century Age of Exploration.
     
    As far as I understand, there is a ban in effect on testing Amerindian skeletons.

    This is a shame.

    What ban on genotyping Natives are you imagining? Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago"

    Wasn't she buried in England, where Native American law doesn't yet apply?
    , @Hail
    I am thinking of this US federal law introduced and passed in 1990:

    "Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act."


    A few archeologists are concerned that they are being prevented from studying ancient remains which cannot be traced to any historic tribe
     
    Tangential on the name of that bill. 1990 seems early in the rise of the term "Native American," which, afaik, only began coming into use in the sense of "Red Indian of North America" in the 1980s, with earliest origins in what I presume is the left-wing academic fringe in the late '70s.

    As of 1990, "Native American" must still have sounded to many like "Latinx" sounds to us today. Its breakthrough period was really the 1990s.

    See Ngram for "Native Americans" :

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Native+American%2CNative+Americans&year_start=1960&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=1&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CNative%20American%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CNative%20Americans%3B%2Cc0

  40. @MEH 0910
    https://twitter.com/littlegaudy/status/1229344370207399937

    That Tweet by La Dame Das should be framed … “virtuous lifestyle od the twiterrati in the early 21st century”

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    Subhadra Das Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/vagina_museum/status/1229347442748948480
  41. Anonymous[645] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the "New World" lagged so far behind the "Old World" in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were --- and continue to be --- relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it's not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    Just during the Trump presidency, US has thrown tantrums abut muh Southern border which US soldiers can’t guard, and demanding that Mexico guards it. Also, Trump essentially reintroduced trade barriers with Mexico because, with NAFTA-guaranteed free trade, Mexicans were building cheaper cars. But sure, go ahead and say that Mexico amounts for nothing. Why go to a Mexico dentist, when Remote Area Medical will get to your rustbelt town in the next few years? Does Mexico City have such highlights in their social calendar?

    • Replies: @Federalist
    Someone says, "THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America." and you attempt to refute this claim by saying that the U.S can't secure its southern border? Why do you think the U.S. or at least many Americans want to secure the southern border? Because too much excellence is happening in Mexico? People aren't very worried about the northern border.
  42. @Muggles
    Interesting. It would be more newsworthy (if proven) if the Vikings/Icelanders didn't bring back an American Indian woman they encountered in their stay in N. America.

    In general Vikings raided and took slaves. Females were highly desired for obvious reasons. This slave raiding mostly happened before the circa 1000 AD Christianizing of the Vikings. However this was because Christians (like Muslims or Jews) weren't supposed to enslave their fellow co-coreligionists. Native American Indians wouldn't qualify.

    But slavery probably wasn't the process, if an Indian female was taken to Iceland. Pocahontas wasn't enslaved. The DNA source woman could have married a Viking and simply returned with him. We'll never know.

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn't have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn't survive long enough to pass along DNA.

    But modern style humans will boink nearly everything. Neanderthals, Denisovans, anything or anyone who runs too slow. So modern DNA tells us. And for most of mankind's history, taking female slaves from enemies was a major form of booty. So "booty" was booty.

    Hey, maybe Elizabeth Warren is partly Icelandic? So, not necessarily a liar?

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada.

    A good one.

  43. @Daniel Williams
    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    Looks more East Asian or Eskimo. A lot of Scandos and Finns from the far north have narrow almond eyes. The sun is always on the horizon, so it helps if your eyes are permanently squinting.

    • Replies: @greysquirrell
    Almost surely these folks are Sami or have Sami admixture. The Sami , especially the ones in old photos, do have that Inuit / Eskimo look. Not surprising since the Sami are supposed to have originated east of the Urals many thousands of years ago.
  44. @Anonymous
    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the "New World" lagged so far behind the "Old World" in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were --- and continue to be --- relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it's not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    Maybe Americans are the dullards for not caring about their own backyard.

    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
  45. @Muggles
    Interesting. It would be more newsworthy (if proven) if the Vikings/Icelanders didn't bring back an American Indian woman they encountered in their stay in N. America.

    In general Vikings raided and took slaves. Females were highly desired for obvious reasons. This slave raiding mostly happened before the circa 1000 AD Christianizing of the Vikings. However this was because Christians (like Muslims or Jews) weren't supposed to enslave their fellow co-coreligionists. Native American Indians wouldn't qualify.

    But slavery probably wasn't the process, if an Indian female was taken to Iceland. Pocahontas wasn't enslaved. The DNA source woman could have married a Viking and simply returned with him. We'll never know.

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn't have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn't survive long enough to pass along DNA.

    But modern style humans will boink nearly everything. Neanderthals, Denisovans, anything or anyone who runs too slow. So modern DNA tells us. And for most of mankind's history, taking female slaves from enemies was a major form of booty. So "booty" was booty.

    Hey, maybe Elizabeth Warren is partly Icelandic? So, not necessarily a liar?

    Many of the tribes in that area no longer have any full-blooded members at all. Disease and warfare wiped out entire tribes. Mixed race Indians were far more likely to survive both war and disease.

    Thus it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that some mixed race Indians have some Viking blood which is hidden amongst the rest of their European blood. Recall that the Greenland Vikings had a very high percentage of Irish ancestry due to kidnappings of Irish women, and many of the remaining mixed race Indians intermarried with the Irish.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that some mixed race Indians have some Viking blood which is hidden amongst the rest of their European blood."
     
    That's a good point, but the genomic toolkit includes the ability to determine (roughly) the date at which an admixture occurred, so they should be able to filter pre- and post-17th century admixture.

    OTOH, I didn't read that they looked for that kind of admixture, so maybe it hasn't occurred to them to do this? If so that would be another funny answer hiding in plain sight.
    , @Foreign Expert
    One significant fact about the Plymouth colony and the Mayflower was that they brought their own women and thus could be fruitful and multiply. Constance Hopkins, 16 years old in 1620, had about 11 children and 72 grandchildren. They didn’t need to capture or buy native women.
  46. @Anonymous
    OT: How about more threads on the horny exotics in congress, Steve.

    https://pjmedia.com/trending/ilhan-omars-sad-tawdry-affair-that-led-to-her-divorce/

    I feel like Omar and AOC (plus that other white bread freshman nympho who was forced out of congress already) are a new type of Washington politician that is here to stay.

    They are young, female, hot, horny, unethical and just plain immature. You might say "wild ass".......

    Feature of the emerging idiocracy?

    Anyway their antics make for good blogging.

    There have always been all sorts of antics among members of Congress. Those of us of a certain age can remember the Wilbur Mills episode with a Latin American stripper named Fannie Fox. Having more women and non-whites simply means the scandals are not exclusive to white men.

    Also, the scandals might be covered up a bit less these days. The Mills episode was uncovered because a Washington reporter happened to see the DC Police send Mills on his way after catching him driving drunk with a stripper in his car.

    A side note: my father met Wilbur Mills twice — once before Mills’ alcoholism and once during. My father worked for the government and had to occasionally work with Congress. The first time he said Mills was one of the most brilliant men he ever met. The second time he was a drunken shadow of his former self.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Isn't she the one that yumped into the Tidal Basin or am I misremembering?
  47. “Icelanders demand Indian Casino for reparations”

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?

    One more… why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes

    "why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish?"
     
    Probably they did just that. And diseases from Portuguese fishermen who operated off the coast of Newfoundland as well.

    Remember, when the Spaniards stepped ashore it is conjectured that 90% of American Indians had previously died off and the Maya were already a ruined civilization. Explorers of the interior reported that Mound Culture sites were ghost towns. And this just shortly after arrival, too brief a time to have been wiped out by the recently arrived Spanish.

    , @Alden
    Smallpox arrived in Europe from America around 1500.
    , @syonredux

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?
     
    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland.....

    One more… why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?
     
    Luck of the draw, I suppose. If none of the Vikings came over with an active case of smallpox...
    , @Thea
    The Norsemen( no longer Vikings by this point) stayed very briefly in Newfoundland and appear to have left and not returned with minimal interference from the locals. There was some trade. The colony was too far to maintain particularly with worsening seas due to the approaching mini ice age.

    Greenland is a more complicated story.

    The Norse arrived in southern Greenland centuries before the Inuit. They never crossed paths with the Dorset far far to the north. The Inuit arrived in Northwest Greenland, slaughtered the Dorset and had often contentious relations with the Norse. But some Inuit women married Norsemen and lived in the Norse settlement. And they traded.

    Around 500 years after its founding, Climate change lead to diminished farming and eventually the end of the colony. While the actual end date and exact final fate remains a mystery, there were periodic attacks. The younger Norse also began to leave Greenland on the rarer and rarer ships that visited. It’s possible the final Norse died out of starvation, were killed or somehow left and survived in Iceland and Norway.
    , @JohnPlywood
    Nobody genocided Vikings in Greenland. There is no evidence for that.

    The alternative white crowd sure does love to claim genocide whenever possible despite a complete lack of evidence, but they bark up a tree constantly about the Holocaust.
  48. It makes me chuckle that so many of the people who loudly proclaim that eugenics is “pseudoscience” are the same people who get a great deal of pleasure out of deploring us inhabitants of the present “Idiocracy”. When is Mike Judge going to get MeToo’d (so to speak) by the Angela Sainis and Adam Rutherfords of this world?

  49. I don’t know anything about the genetics here, but one look at Bjork makes this theory believable.

  50. @Anon
    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic. That is some scary ass piece of ocean, even with GPS and satellite weather. There's also a genre of YouTube videos made by general aviation pilots making their way to Europe via Iceland in small propeller aircraft, which show ocean passages from above.

    OT

    Re Angela Saini deleting her Twitter: Butthurt women deleting their Twitter accounts has become the modern equivalent of a woman breaking out in tears or fainting as a way to win an argument and get men, and women, to trash the male adversary and supporting the woman. It's impressive how millennia of evolutionary psychology manages to adapt to new environments.

    This is a video about some Minnesotans and a Norwegian skipper who sailed a Viking ship from the U.S. to Norway in 1982. Even w/some modern conveniences it was no pleasure cruise.

  51. Alternatively there might have been a mixed Norse-American relationship that produced a baby in Greenland whose descendents flocked West.

    We know the Vinland colony (in modern day Newfoundland) only lasted about 10 years and appears to have been evacuated in a planned but hasty fashion. However, there is strong evidence that the Greenland Norse continued to trade along the coast of North American for possibly centuries.

  52. @songbird
    I wonder who the first Indian to go to Europe and come back alive was.

    I don't believe Pocahontas lasted quite 40 weeks in England, though she does have living descendants from a half-breed son born in Virginia.

    Squanto? I don’t remember the timeline but I do remember reading a juvenile biography about him when I was a kid. The Scholastic Book Service was terrific. I’d be surprised if that book isn’t out of print now as it generally shaped America’s early history as a pretty good thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squanto

  53. @Anonymous
    The idea that North America was founded by Scandinavians seems to be based on taking away any British claims to being the founders of North America, the Australians are also desperate to "prove" that Australia was discovered by anyone other than the British but so far they've been unsuccessful in that endeavour.

    Some interesting Dutch tales of shipwreck survivors in one of the appendixes to

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/482224.The_Wreck_of_the_Batavia

  54. @obwandiyag
    Bjork.

    Yup, Bjork immediately sprang to mind for me too.

  55. Are there any known remains of the Dorset people that have been sequenced? Any DNA remnants left in modern Eskimo, or was the annihilation complete?

    How do very northern, non-European peoples bury their dead, anyway?

  56. @Anon
    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic. That is some scary ass piece of ocean, even with GPS and satellite weather. There's also a genre of YouTube videos made by general aviation pilots making their way to Europe via Iceland in small propeller aircraft, which show ocean passages from above.

    OT

    Re Angela Saini deleting her Twitter: Butthurt women deleting their Twitter accounts has become the modern equivalent of a woman breaking out in tears or fainting as a way to win an argument and get men, and women, to trash the male adversary and supporting the woman. It's impressive how millennia of evolutionary psychology manages to adapt to new environments.

    Re Angela Saini deleting her Twitter: Butthurt women deleting their Twitter accounts has become the modern equivalent of a woman breaking out in tears or fainting as a way to win an argument and get men, and women, to trash the male adversary and supporting the woman.

    I’m not sure this works when the self-described victim is being pimped by every major media outlet in the Anglosphere.

    Personally, I think we’d all be happier if dear old Ange spent her abundant energy on much more….pleasurable….activities….

  57. @anon
    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic.

    It's possible back around the Medieval Climactic Optimum that the North Atlantic was easier to navigate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter:

    There's always at least one of these somewhere around.
    Always.

    https://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/452/279/b4f.jpg

    I prefer this take on the white knight:

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    An old Brit was interviewed in, I think, the 1950s about his experience with the feather girls, who in pre-conscription 1914 handed out white feathers to young men still in civilian clothes.

    One girl-- these were mostly naive teenagers, remember-- handed hers to a young man on a train. He smiled, and pulled up his shirt to show the scars from the wound he had just received in the war. He was now on leave.

    She was so mortified that she invited him home and sat him down for tea. Then she left the room-- and returned stark naked. "Please, sir, have your way with me."

    I remember him, or the interviewer, being coy about whether or he took advantage of the offer.

  58. @Peter Akuleyev
    THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.

    Even as recently as 50 years ago this was not the case at all. Latin America had a much higher global profile than it does today, particularly in popular culture. Argentina was the country of the tango, top athletes, gauchos, Borges, Evita Peron and fabulous steaks. It was actually a fairly glamorous place.

    In the 1960s and into the 1970s Latin America was arguably producing the finest writers in the world: Borges, Cortazar, Vargas Llosa, Garcia Marquez, Octavio Paz, and so on.

    Back in 1972 any Presidential candidate could have named Luis Echeverria without thinking about it. Mexico had recently hosted the Olympics, was the country of Zorro, fabulous beach resorts and the place where Americans in legal trouble knew they could run to. Mexico was also just coming off two decades of 7% economic growth - "the Mexican Miracle" - and every American businessman saw it as a market of the future.

    Question is what the hell happened? In Mexico or Peru you could argue the indigenous population eventually outnumbered the conquistador class and dragged the whole society down, but that doesn't explain why Argentina has also fallen off the map. There are other factors - the rise of Asia and the opening of the economies in the Soviet bloc combined to make Latin American less relevant by comparison; the hierarchical stratified societies of large land holders in predominantly agricultural countries like Argentina or Mexico were once considered charmingly aristocratic and worthy of emulation, but are increasingly obsolete in a world of digital technology and mechanized farming; and of course drug trafficking and the associated violence has scarred the whole continent.

    There’s been a considerable demographic and ethnic shift in Argentina. Today, it is considerably less white than half a century ago. On one hand, European immigration dried up, and the mainly mestizo population from rural inland regions became more fertile and began moving to Buenos Aires and other large cities, intermixing with European Argentinians, those one or two generations removed from the Old Country. Add to that a sizable immigration from Paraguay, Bolivia and Chile during the last 40 years, and Argentinian IQ and productivity have taken a huge hit, not to mention the totally corrupt political system and obsolete industries and infrastructures.
    In 2020, Argentina looks more and more like the rest of South America than like Europe.

  59. @Anonymous
    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the "New World" lagged so far behind the "Old World" in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were --- and continue to be --- relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it's not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes.

    Dude, I can do that walking around Dover, NJ for five minutes, taking in all their flat, smashed looking faces and dead, coal-black eyes.

  60. There were more than likely Pre-Columbian trans Pacific crossings as there were chicken bones found in Chile that genetically are related to Polynesian chickens.

    • Replies: @donut
    I remember hearing about what remarkable navigational skills Polynesian chickens had .
  61. The Inuit who now occupy Canada’s Eastern Arctic came later than when the Vikings were there. Before them was the Dorset culture who the Inuit pushing from the West supplanted. Perhaps any European / Dorset mixed children died out.

  62. @Peter Akuleyev
    THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.

    Even as recently as 50 years ago this was not the case at all. Latin America had a much higher global profile than it does today, particularly in popular culture. Argentina was the country of the tango, top athletes, gauchos, Borges, Evita Peron and fabulous steaks. It was actually a fairly glamorous place.

    In the 1960s and into the 1970s Latin America was arguably producing the finest writers in the world: Borges, Cortazar, Vargas Llosa, Garcia Marquez, Octavio Paz, and so on.

    Back in 1972 any Presidential candidate could have named Luis Echeverria without thinking about it. Mexico had recently hosted the Olympics, was the country of Zorro, fabulous beach resorts and the place where Americans in legal trouble knew they could run to. Mexico was also just coming off two decades of 7% economic growth - "the Mexican Miracle" - and every American businessman saw it as a market of the future.

    Question is what the hell happened? In Mexico or Peru you could argue the indigenous population eventually outnumbered the conquistador class and dragged the whole society down, but that doesn't explain why Argentina has also fallen off the map. There are other factors - the rise of Asia and the opening of the economies in the Soviet bloc combined to make Latin American less relevant by comparison; the hierarchical stratified societies of large land holders in predominantly agricultural countries like Argentina or Mexico were once considered charmingly aristocratic and worthy of emulation, but are increasingly obsolete in a world of digital technology and mechanized farming; and of course drug trafficking and the associated violence has scarred the whole continent.

    “what the hell happened?”

    Cheap transport and comms causing brain drain? I keep meeting talented Latin Americans, but not in Latin America. Maybe Latin America can no longer get the critical mass of talent together. For individuals of ability nowadays it is just easier to move to the Global North than to try to build up the homeland.

  63. @Paleo Liberal
    Many of the tribes in that area no longer have any full-blooded members at all. Disease and warfare wiped out entire tribes. Mixed race Indians were far more likely to survive both war and disease.

    Thus it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that some mixed race Indians have some Viking blood which is hidden amongst the rest of their European blood. Recall that the Greenland Vikings had a very high percentage of Irish ancestry due to kidnappings of Irish women, and many of the remaining mixed race Indians intermarried with the Irish.

    “it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that some mixed race Indians have some Viking blood which is hidden amongst the rest of their European blood.”

    That’s a good point, but the genomic toolkit includes the ability to determine (roughly) the date at which an admixture occurred, so they should be able to filter pre- and post-17th century admixture.

    OTOH, I didn’t read that they looked for that kind of admixture, so maybe it hasn’t occurred to them to do this? If so that would be another funny answer hiding in plain sight.

  64. @songbird
    I wonder who the first Indian to go to Europe and come back alive was.

    I don't believe Pocahontas lasted quite 40 weeks in England, though she does have living descendants from a half-breed son born in Virginia.

    Edith Wilson was a descendant of Pocahontas, from John Rolfe’s kid.

    Nancy Reagan was also a descendant of John Rolfe. It is not clear if her ancestor was Pocahontas or a different wife. More likely the latter.

  65. Anonymous[755] • Disclaimer says:

    The Dorset people who inhabited Arctic Canada at the time of the Norse visits were wiped out later by the Inuit Eskimos (as were, possibly, the Greenland Norse themselves). No genetic continuity. The Beothuk of Newfoundland died out in an ugly way during the early 19th century. Not much chance of Viking DNA being left behind in Canada. Hard to distinguish 18th century Danish colonist DNA in Greenlanders from late medieval Norse. So unlikely they’ll detect it there.

    There are some odd stories of so called “Blond Eskimos” from 19th century Arctic expeditions. But they are far from anywhere the Norse went and very unlikely to be related to them for the reasons above.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond_Eskimos

  66. It would explain Bjork’s Asiatic features.

  67. @Anon
    This woman is in charge of preserving and curating Francis Galton's papers. Yikes! If I were a researcher I'd get in there quickly before material starts to go walkabout into the shredder. I wonder if you need to be vetted for political correctness to gain access to the papers? Is a diversity statement required? You'd like to think that people in such positions are boring, neutral personalities who are committed to preserving history, leaving the interpretation up to others.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPaalX30k7Y

    (Apparently what triggered the sequence of events that led to Angela Saini leaving Twitter were tweets by her about Das that subtweeted Rutherford.)

    Sub-Continental women are some of the most shrill SJWs. Ugh.

  68. @Anonymous
    The idea that North America was founded by Scandinavians seems to be based on taking away any British claims to being the founders of North America, the Australians are also desperate to "prove" that Australia was discovered by anyone other than the British but so far they've been unsuccessful in that endeavour.

    I’ve never heard anyone claim Scandinavians founded North America. Scandinavians had walrus hunting and logging colonies in North America hundreds of years before Columbus (who was not British) discovered the Caribbean and South America. The Norse colonies were ultimately failures and they disappeared by the time of Columbus leaving no surviving trace. However, they have actual archaeological evidence of this now and have for many decades. The vikings were in Canada.

  69. @Anonymous
    Related topic:

    Just wanna reflect on the enduring and profound mediocrity of Meso American genes. It is disturbing to think about the now vast populations between the Rio Grande and Patagonia and how they contribute almost nothing to the advancement of humanity.

    Based on the recent track record of the Latin American societies it should be obvious as to why in 1492 the "New World" lagged so far behind the "Old World" in every metric. The fact is the peoples of the New World were --- and continue to be --- relative dullards. And 10% conquistador admixture from Europe is not enough to fix the situation.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico. AND FOR DAMN GOOD REASON. Nobody gives a damn about Mexico because nothing ever happens in Mexico that is of any import to the rest of the world.

    And it's not because the land is nothing but country folk. No, there is a gigantic urban megalopolis called Mexico City where Nothing. Ever. Happens. Meaning there is literally zero interest globally in the goings on in that city. No one cares!

    Argentina and Chile and the rest etc are no different. No one cares because you have to give people a reason to care. You have to demonstrate excellence in a chosen field in order to make people care. THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America. Duh.

    This is disturbing as hell considering our elites have decided to move half of the Latin American world to El Norte.

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico.

    Watched the debate on our new Black Friday 75” UHD TV . The talking heads of the candidates were substantially larger than life on our screen and even at a mere 2K resolution plenty disturbing. What’s up with Bloomberg’s grandma mustache, for example? He seemed to have this sort of unevenly spaced series of fine white hairs all across his upper lip which looked somehow to be subcutaneous.

    Bernie is one of the candidates I actually ended up liking less after the debate. He honestly seems like a Popular Front-era dullard, his brain still stuck on the freshest 1959-vintage PARTISAN REVIEW hot takes, like when he just had to correct Bloomie about the differences between communism and his own democratic socialism. Would love to see someone with Trump’s ballz and, say, Christopher Caldwell’s erudition troll Bernie on-stage over whether in office he’ll posthumously exonerate Sacco and Vanzetti and see Bernie go into a live pedantic death spiral.

    But, yeah, funny to watch Klobuchar (at our viewing size) visibly shake under all of Buttigieg’s needling. The meltdown about not remembering the Mexican President’s name was classic! Klobuchar very reasonably and graciously tried to field it as an innocent mistake, but when the Telemundo bimbo wouldn’t let up, you could see this realization cross her face like, oh crap, this isn’t your dad’s old Dumbya/Dan Quayle too-dumb-for-the-nuclear-football style of gotcha, it’s one of them new fangled how-dare-you-dishonor-someone-more-intersectional-than-thou!! grovel-able moments. The fleeting battle between lust for power and any last shreds of self-respect fighting it across the horsey battlefield of her face was priceless! Wonder if Bloomie bribed the Telemundo bimbo to lay that ambush on Klobuchar. Wonder if she gave him back a beej as “change”…

    • Replies: @Lurker

    The fleeting battle between lust for power and any last shreds of self-respect fighting it across the horsey battlefield of her face
     
    Superb!
    , @Lars Porsena

    the horsey battlefield of her face
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bps5hJ5DQDw
    , @Abe
    https://www.newyorker.com/culture/postscript/pop-smokes-majesty-and-menace

    POP SMOKE’S MAJESTY AND MENACE

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J8nnCtxnj8o/XlBxCBAavXI/AAAAAAAAAQk/EgIG9gDMFPMHq8GxVa5Q8_4aubvylUuxACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/popsmk.jpg

  70. I strongly doubt the hypothesis of Amerindian admixture in the Icelandic population. For one thing, the subclade in question, C1e, has not been found in any native American population. For another, no Amerindian subclade has been found in Iceland. This point is made in a 2014 study:

    Among other hypotheses including that of a European origin, an American origin was favoured on the basis that most of the hg C1 diversity is found on the American continent, despite the fact that no sequence belonging to hg C1e could be detected in the Americas (or anywhere else). This lack of match was explained by under-sampling of the American mtDNA genome diversity [10]. In any case, if admixture between Native Americans and Vikings did occur, it must have been limited, as no other American-specific lineage (e.g. hg A2, B2, D1, C1b, C1c, C1d) was detected in Iceland.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3913659/

    The authors of the same study point out that a sister subclade, C1f, has been found in human remains from Mesolithic northeast Europe. Moreoever, it is not excluded that these two sister subclades, C1e and C1f, still exist in northeast Europe. The Icelandic population has been studied much more than almost any other population, so C1e might still exist somewhere in northeast Europe but hasn’t been found because of its low frequency. The authors conclude:

    … we suggest that the Icelandic-specific C1e sub-clade could have had a recent origin in northern Europe rather than an American origin. This hypothesis is relevant with regard to the origins of the Icelandic population, as Iceland was discovered and first settled by Scandinavian Vikings around 1,130 years ago. Vikings raids extended as far from their homeland in Scandinavia as France, Spain and Sicily, but their main expansion range comprised western Russia, the Baltic region, Scandinavia, and the British Isles

    • Thanks: Hail
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Well said. Never discussed is how brief longevity was in the era of discovery, or encounter, and before, and how small the population.

    You were lucky to survive 15 child bearing years, find someone, conceive and have a surviving offspring. Much less get in a rickety wooden boat in the most treacherous frozen seas on earth and sail hundreds of miles.

    Laffer
  71. @Anonymous
    What ban on genotyping Natives are you imagining? Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago.

    “Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago”

    Wasn’t she buried in England, where Native American law doesn’t yet apply?

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    yet
     
    Good one
    , @Hail
    I am wondering if the Anon's comment was a sarcastic reference to Elizabeth Warren (Tweetman's nickname for whom is "Pocahontas"). I have heard nothing of the 17th-century Amerindian girl called Pocahontas' remains being genotyped. Link appreciated.
    , @Rob
    He means Senator Wokahontad.
  72. @Twodees Partain
    Though I don't know of any genetic study being done, at least one researcher/author has been studying and publishing on the archaeological proof that the Uchee, a southeastern American indian tribe originally came to North America from northern Europe. The tribe's oral history tradition states that they came here across the Atlantic for the direction of the sunrise.

    The Uchee language is unlike any other indian tribe's language, having words in common with Scandinavian languages and petroglyphs and mounds attributed to the Uchi are very similar to mounds and petroglyphs in places like Nyköping, Sweden, but also some of their petroglyphs contain characters identical to those in southwestern Ireland.

    https://apalacheresearch.com/2019/07/23/the-uchee-yuchi-everything-you-wanted-to-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/

    That article was very interesting. I guess no one will be allowed to look into it scientifically because the results might violate our secular theology.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    That's my take as well. That author has been hounded and marginalized by the official state historians in Georgia and NC, and had his site taken down along with his online archive of articles going back several years. The official historical tale is being spun that the Cherokee have been in the Appalachians for 10,000 years and that there no other tribes of any note during that time.

    The actual historical fact is that the Cherokee showed up in the area in the 18th century and had nothing to do with the mounds and peteroglyphs that establish the connection to Bronze Age Scandinavia and Ireland. The author's videos are still on Youtube, though his original site is gone:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUrFuFFaUFs

  73. @Anonymous
    Just during the Trump presidency, US has thrown tantrums abut muh Southern border which US soldiers can't guard, and demanding that Mexico guards it. Also, Trump essentially reintroduced trade barriers with Mexico because, with NAFTA-guaranteed free trade, Mexicans were building cheaper cars. But sure, go ahead and say that Mexico amounts for nothing. Why go to a Mexico dentist, when Remote Area Medical will get to your rustbelt town in the next few years? Does Mexico City have such highlights in their social calendar?

    Someone says, “THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.” and you attempt to refute this claim by saying that the U.S can’t secure its southern border? Why do you think the U.S. or at least many Americans want to secure the southern border? Because too much excellence is happening in Mexico? People aren’t very worried about the northern border.

  74. @Anonymous
    What ban on genotyping Natives are you imagining? Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago.

    I am thinking of this US federal law introduced and passed in 1990:

    Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act.”

    A few archeologists are concerned that they are being prevented from studying ancient remains which cannot be traced to any historic tribe

    Tangential on the name of that bill. 1990 seems early in the rise of the term “Native American,” which, afaik, only began coming into use in the sense of “Red Indian of North America” in the 1980s, with earliest origins in what I presume is the left-wing academic fringe in the late ’70s.

    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today. Its breakthrough period was really the 1990s.

    See Ngram for “Native Americans” :

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Native+American%2CNative+Americans&year_start=1960&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=1&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CNative%20American%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CNative%20Americans%3B%2Cc0

    • Replies: @Wency
    I recall being at Boy Scout camp in the mid 90s, and we had an "Indian Lore" class. So this would seem to be just as usage of "Native American" was plateauing. And I recall there being an annoying, whiny, chinless kid, very pimply, with huge whiteheads all over. And he stands up and gives a whole "we should call this class 'Native American Lore'" spiel.

    And the instructor -- maybe you'd call him a camp counselor? -- very athletic and built fellow, calmly tore apart each of his points, and that was the end of it.

    But to this day, whenever I hear "you should call them Native Americans", I think of that chinless kid and all his whiteheads. Which is not to blame him for his parents' failure to spring for a dermatologist, but also looks to me like evidence that physiognomy is real.

    Still, while I viscerally object to "Native Americans", I would posit that, objectively, it's stupid and confusing that we call them "Indians". It's just that the term "Native Americans" manages to be even dumber and also confusing. The Canadian term "First Nations" is pretty hokey but probably better than either of our terms. The Australians seem to be the only ones who picked the correct word with "aborigines". You could call them "autochthones", but I don't see that catching on, despite its cool, almost Lovecraftian vibe.
    , @(((Owen)))

    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today.
     
    Nope. Native American was all over the newspapers and in common uncontroversial usage among the educated classes by the mid 1980s.
  75. @syonredux
    The Kensington Runestone is an obvious fake:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWvRtlyTaUc&t=8s

    That is an academic consensus position since the early 20th century and so has the weight of tradition believing it was fake. Consider looking into what the believers say.

    I would not be so quick to it is an “obvious fake.” More serious people than you may think believe it is an open question. There were people in the 20th century before the 1960s discovery of the Viking sites in Newfoundland who believed the idea of any Viking settlement on the North American continent was also a hoax.

    One good argument against the Kensington Stone is, if it were authentic, why was it only found by a man of recent Scandinavian origin with presumable ethnic motive to fake it?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    One good argument against the Kensington Stone is, if it were authentic, why was it only found by a man of recent Scandinavian origin with presumable ethnic motive to fake it?
     
    Except the farmer who found it was incapable of pulling off such a hoax. If it indeed was fake, it would have been the first "expert" he showed it to, the Alan Lomax to the farmer's Leadbelly.

    I'm open to either side's arguments, but have been deeply suspicious of the facile rejection of the possibility of its veracity. It's like the old assumption that our sun was the only star with planets. Now we know of hundreds of other such stars.

    Whether or not medieval Knights Templar made it to the center of our continent, there is no reason to believe they couldn't have. Not centuries after St Brendan.

    Geologist Scott Wolter says the physical evidence suggests that a 19th-century burial is highly unlikely, much less so than a 14th-century one.

    https://www.grandforksherald.com/news/2109921-minnesota-geologist-maintains-authenticity-kensington-rune-stone
    , @syonredux

    Consider looking into what the believers say.
     
    I have; they're goons.

    I would not be so quick to it is an “obvious fake.” More serious people than you may think believe it is an open question.
     
    Serious people can be goons.Goonishness is a universal failing.
  76. @Peter Akuleyev
    THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.

    Even as recently as 50 years ago this was not the case at all. Latin America had a much higher global profile than it does today, particularly in popular culture. Argentina was the country of the tango, top athletes, gauchos, Borges, Evita Peron and fabulous steaks. It was actually a fairly glamorous place.

    In the 1960s and into the 1970s Latin America was arguably producing the finest writers in the world: Borges, Cortazar, Vargas Llosa, Garcia Marquez, Octavio Paz, and so on.

    Back in 1972 any Presidential candidate could have named Luis Echeverria without thinking about it. Mexico had recently hosted the Olympics, was the country of Zorro, fabulous beach resorts and the place where Americans in legal trouble knew they could run to. Mexico was also just coming off two decades of 7% economic growth - "the Mexican Miracle" - and every American businessman saw it as a market of the future.

    Question is what the hell happened? In Mexico or Peru you could argue the indigenous population eventually outnumbered the conquistador class and dragged the whole society down, but that doesn't explain why Argentina has also fallen off the map. There are other factors - the rise of Asia and the opening of the economies in the Soviet bloc combined to make Latin American less relevant by comparison; the hierarchical stratified societies of large land holders in predominantly agricultural countries like Argentina or Mexico were once considered charmingly aristocratic and worthy of emulation, but are increasingly obsolete in a world of digital technology and mechanized farming; and of course drug trafficking and the associated violence has scarred the whole continent.

    The demographic weight in Latin America has generally resided in four countries: Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, and Argentina. As we speak, about 2/3 of the population of Latin America lives there. The ratio of their per capita product to that of the United States has been as follows:

    1926

    Brazil: 0.09
    Mexico: 0.21
    Colombia: 0.18
    Argentina: 0.68

    1956

    Brazil: 0.11
    Mexico: 0.18
    Colombia: 0.19
    Argentina: 0.50

    1986

    Brazil: 0.17
    Mexico: 0.28
    Colombia: 0.19
    Argentina: 0.39

    2016

    Brazil: 0.25
    Mexico: 0.30
    Colombia: 0.24
    Argentina: 0.35

    The most affluent Latin American territories (measured as a share of American production per capita) have been as follows

    1926: Argentina (0.68), Uruguay (0.40), Cuba (0.35), Chile (0.35), Costa Rica (0.26)

    1956: Argentina (0.50), Uruguay (0.43), Puerto Rico (0.36), Venezuela (0.30), Chile (0.27), Cuba (0.23)

    1986: Puerto Rico (0.59), Argentina (0.39), Mexico (0.28), Uruguay (0.25), Venezuela (0.23)

    2016: Puerto Rico (0.66), Panama (0.41), Chile (0.40), Uruguay (0.38), Argentina (0.35), Mexico (0.30), Dominican Republic (0.27), Costa Rica (0.26).

    The data for Venezuela are misleading because they are driven by natural resource bonanzas. Those for Chile need to be subject to mild discounting for the same reason. Puerto Rico has grisly dysfunctional labor markets.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    Isn't Puerto Rico's figure distorted by Microsoft making most of their added value there, presumably for tax reasons?
  77. @Daniel Williams
    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    Her eyes and black hair have to come from Inuit blood. That woman is the epitome of unique; her look, her sound, her style, her outlook, ideas, demeanor, and cultural heritage. Rare.

  78. @J.Ross
    Wiki has Greenland Inuit coming from Canada. I have heard of this elsewhere, I was checking it because of something I had read about kayaking which went off on a tangent about Greenland Inuit.
    (But this would make them the group to exclude: the big deal would be, like, a Narragansett in Reykjavik.)

    As far as we know, the Inuit came to Greenland AFTER the Vikings by several centuries.

    From what I can tell, there were several waves of migrations to Greenland. The Vikings and the Dorset 2 peoples came at about the same time, but to different parts of Greenland. Around AD 1200, the Thule people — ancestors of the modern Greenlanders — came to Greenland. They were better adapted to the cold, and as things got colder, they more or less pushed everyone else out. The Vikings were all gone by around AD 1450.

    https://visitgreenland.com/about-greenland/migration-greenland/

  79. @Muggles
    Interesting. It would be more newsworthy (if proven) if the Vikings/Icelanders didn't bring back an American Indian woman they encountered in their stay in N. America.

    In general Vikings raided and took slaves. Females were highly desired for obvious reasons. This slave raiding mostly happened before the circa 1000 AD Christianizing of the Vikings. However this was because Christians (like Muslims or Jews) weren't supposed to enslave their fellow co-coreligionists. Native American Indians wouldn't qualify.

    But slavery probably wasn't the process, if an Indian female was taken to Iceland. Pocahontas wasn't enslaved. The DNA source woman could have married a Viking and simply returned with him. We'll never know.

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn't have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn't survive long enough to pass along DNA.

    But modern style humans will boink nearly everything. Neanderthals, Denisovans, anything or anyone who runs too slow. So modern DNA tells us. And for most of mankind's history, taking female slaves from enemies was a major form of booty. So "booty" was booty.

    Hey, maybe Elizabeth Warren is partly Icelandic? So, not necessarily a liar?

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn’t have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn’t survive long enough to pass along DNA.

    Are you high? Almost all East coast Amerindian males have European paternal haplogroups.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    >>Are you high? Almost all East coast Amerindian males have European paternal haplogroups.<<

    One doesn't have to be "high" to be imprecise. While I'm not a DNA expert of Amerindian populations in N. America as you seem to be, I should have been more specific.

    I was referring to the specific Icelandic/Viking DNA from those early N. American visitors, and should have said that. Yes I would think by now, anyway, many Indians have some partial non Indian DNA, much of that European.

    I was thinking of some articles I have read about the subject of "lost" European explorers (Vikings usually) who were suspected of being permanently stuck here pre Columbus and pre Spanish exploration. There have been a few very old non Indian remains found, or so it was thought. From what I recall none of these provided any conclusive DNA as to non Indian origin even when found thousands of miles from NE USA or Canada. Nor have I read of any pre 1500 skeletons in N. America which have been found to have European DNA. This doesn't mean there weren't any, given the low odds of finding testable remains.

    As the article notes, Iceland has a particularly complete population DNA profile in hand, so if any Vikings were procreating in N. America from Iceland that would be more detectable. Male captives would not likely have the chance to mate with natives (as others have noted).
  80. @Hail

    who knows what was not written down.
     
    Even that which is written down, or is highly probable, is hard to prove. The presence of a Viking settlement in North America, long suspected, was only confirmed in the 1960s with archaeological spadework (literally, as they say), at Newfoundland.

    Many still believe in the basic message of the Kensington Runestone, which is that other back-and-forth crossings occurred in post-Viking centuries. If you ever examine the pro-Kensington Runestone community's purported evidence, some of it does seem compelling. It's one of those never-quite-fading controversies, like the Shakespeare authorship question.

    What would be smoking-gun evidence? A European skeleton that dates to pre-1492, I would think. Or a presumed- and morphologically-Amerind male skeleton dating to pre-1492 that is tested to have R1b, etc.

    R1a or I2/I1 is more likely than R1b if pre-1492.

    • Replies: @Hail
    Please explain.

    (Fwiw, my paternal line traces to Scandinavia and I am R1b.)
  81. @Art Deco
    The demographic weight in Latin America has generally resided in four countries: Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, and Argentina. As we speak, about 2/3 of the population of Latin America lives there. The ratio of their per capita product to that of the United States has been as follows:


    1926

    Brazil: 0.09
    Mexico: 0.21
    Colombia: 0.18
    Argentina: 0.68

    1956

    Brazil: 0.11
    Mexico: 0.18
    Colombia: 0.19
    Argentina: 0.50

    1986

    Brazil: 0.17
    Mexico: 0.28
    Colombia: 0.19
    Argentina: 0.39

    2016

    Brazil: 0.25
    Mexico: 0.30
    Colombia: 0.24
    Argentina: 0.35


    The most affluent Latin American territories (measured as a share of American production per capita) have been as follows

    1926: Argentina (0.68), Uruguay (0.40), Cuba (0.35), Chile (0.35), Costa Rica (0.26)

    1956: Argentina (0.50), Uruguay (0.43), Puerto Rico (0.36), Venezuela (0.30), Chile (0.27), Cuba (0.23)

    1986: Puerto Rico (0.59), Argentina (0.39), Mexico (0.28), Uruguay (0.25), Venezuela (0.23)

    2016: Puerto Rico (0.66), Panama (0.41), Chile (0.40), Uruguay (0.38), Argentina (0.35), Mexico (0.30), Dominican Republic (0.27), Costa Rica (0.26).


    The data for Venezuela are misleading because they are driven by natural resource bonanzas. Those for Chile need to be subject to mild discounting for the same reason. Puerto Rico has grisly dysfunctional labor markets.

    Isn’t Puerto Rico’s figure distorted by Microsoft making most of their added value there, presumably for tax reasons?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Microsoft did not exist in 1956.

    The data above are from Maddison, and do refer to estimates of per capita product.

    The Census data on personal income would not include corporate earnings booked to the territory. The Census Bureau has it that earnings per household on Puerto Rico are about 35% of the national mean and personal income per household about 39% of the national mean in 2017. So, yes, the Maddison data needs some footnotes.

  82. @Daniel Williams
    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    There is less distance to travel East-West near the Arctic Circle, making Northern Asian-Scandinavian migration more likely than one would think. Scandinavian Laplanders have epicanthal folds like Asians.

  83. @Abe

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico.
     
    Watched the debate on our new Black Friday 75” UHD TV . The talking heads of the candidates were substantially larger than life on our screen and even at a mere 2K resolution plenty disturbing. What’s up with Bloomberg’s grandma mustache, for example? He seemed to have this sort of unevenly spaced series of fine white hairs all across his upper lip which looked somehow to be subcutaneous.

    Bernie is one of the candidates I actually ended up liking less after the debate. He honestly seems like a Popular Front-era dullard, his brain still stuck on the freshest 1959-vintage PARTISAN REVIEW hot takes, like when he just had to correct Bloomie about the differences between communism and his own democratic socialism. Would love to see someone with Trump’s ballz and, say, Christopher Caldwell’s erudition troll Bernie on-stage over whether in office he’ll posthumously exonerate Sacco and Vanzetti and see Bernie go into a live pedantic death spiral.

    But, yeah, funny to watch Klobuchar (at our viewing size) visibly shake under all of Buttigieg’s needling. The meltdown about not remembering the Mexican President’s name was classic! Klobuchar very reasonably and graciously tried to field it as an innocent mistake, but when the Telemundo bimbo wouldn’t let up, you could see this realization cross her face like, oh crap, this isn’t your dad’s old Dumbya/Dan Quayle too-dumb-for-the-nuclear-football style of gotcha, it’s one of them new fangled how-dare-you-dishonor-someone-more-intersectional-than-thou!! grovel-able moments. The fleeting battle between lust for power and any last shreds of self-respect fighting it across the horsey battlefield of her face was priceless! Wonder if Bloomie bribed the Telemundo bimbo to lay that ambush on Klobuchar. Wonder if she gave him back a beej as “change”...

    The fleeting battle between lust for power and any last shreds of self-respect fighting it across the horsey battlefield of her face

    Superb!

  84. @Hail
    That is an academic consensus position since the early 20th century and so has the weight of tradition believing it was fake. Consider looking into what the believers say.

    I would not be so quick to it is an "obvious fake." More serious people than you may think believe it is an open question. There were people in the 20th century before the 1960s discovery of the Viking sites in Newfoundland who believed the idea of any Viking settlement on the North American continent was also a hoax.

    One good argument against the Kensington Stone is, if it were authentic, why was it only found by a man of recent Scandinavian origin with presumable ethnic motive to fake it?

    One good argument against the Kensington Stone is, if it were authentic, why was it only found by a man of recent Scandinavian origin with presumable ethnic motive to fake it?

    Except the farmer who found it was incapable of pulling off such a hoax. If it indeed was fake, it would have been the first “expert” he showed it to, the Alan Lomax to the farmer’s Leadbelly.

    I’m open to either side’s arguments, but have been deeply suspicious of the facile rejection of the possibility of its veracity. It’s like the old assumption that our sun was the only star with planets. Now we know of hundreds of other such stars.

    Whether or not medieval Knights Templar made it to the center of our continent, there is no reason to believe they couldn’t have. Not centuries after St Brendan.

    Geologist Scott Wolter says the physical evidence suggests that a 19th-century burial is highly unlikely, much less so than a 14th-century one.

    https://www.grandforksherald.com/news/2109921-minnesota-geologist-maintains-authenticity-kensington-rune-stone

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Except the farmer who found it was incapable of pulling off such a hoax.
     
    Dunno. It's such a clumsy fake:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWvRtlyTaUc&t=1799s
  85. @Abe

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico.
     
    Watched the debate on our new Black Friday 75” UHD TV . The talking heads of the candidates were substantially larger than life on our screen and even at a mere 2K resolution plenty disturbing. What’s up with Bloomberg’s grandma mustache, for example? He seemed to have this sort of unevenly spaced series of fine white hairs all across his upper lip which looked somehow to be subcutaneous.

    Bernie is one of the candidates I actually ended up liking less after the debate. He honestly seems like a Popular Front-era dullard, his brain still stuck on the freshest 1959-vintage PARTISAN REVIEW hot takes, like when he just had to correct Bloomie about the differences between communism and his own democratic socialism. Would love to see someone with Trump’s ballz and, say, Christopher Caldwell’s erudition troll Bernie on-stage over whether in office he’ll posthumously exonerate Sacco and Vanzetti and see Bernie go into a live pedantic death spiral.

    But, yeah, funny to watch Klobuchar (at our viewing size) visibly shake under all of Buttigieg’s needling. The meltdown about not remembering the Mexican President’s name was classic! Klobuchar very reasonably and graciously tried to field it as an innocent mistake, but when the Telemundo bimbo wouldn’t let up, you could see this realization cross her face like, oh crap, this isn’t your dad’s old Dumbya/Dan Quayle too-dumb-for-the-nuclear-football style of gotcha, it’s one of them new fangled how-dare-you-dishonor-someone-more-intersectional-than-thou!! grovel-able moments. The fleeting battle between lust for power and any last shreds of self-respect fighting it across the horsey battlefield of her face was priceless! Wonder if Bloomie bribed the Telemundo bimbo to lay that ambush on Klobuchar. Wonder if she gave him back a beej as “change”...

    the horsey battlefield of her face

  86. @Foreign Expert
    Maybe Squanto?, but surely the Spanish must have transported a few before 1620.

    Thanks, I didn’t realize Squanto made the round-trip.

    Guess I must have forgotten it, and got him confused with that other fellow, Samoset. That was when I was in the 2nd Grade, so a long time ago.

    Strange how he survived a few years in Europe (and even London), but only lived a few after he returned.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    I think Squanto made the round trip twice.

    When he came back the second time, his entire tribe had been wiped out by disease. Which is why when the Mayflower landed the land was empty.

    After about half the Mayflower colonists died, the local tribesmen Squanto was living with decided to help the Pilgrims, at the request of Squanto. Squanto and the local Indians were impressed by the way adult Pilgrims would willingly die of starvation in order to feed the children. That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.
  87. @Anon
    “Icelanders demand Indian Casino for reparations”

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?


    One more... why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?

    “why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish?”

    Probably they did just that. And diseases from Portuguese fishermen who operated off the coast of Newfoundland as well.

    Remember, when the Spaniards stepped ashore it is conjectured that 90% of American Indians had previously died off and the Maya were already a ruined civilization. Explorers of the interior reported that Mound Culture sites were ghost towns. And this just shortly after arrival, too brief a time to have been wiped out by the recently arrived Spanish.

    • Replies: @anon
    Remember, when the Spaniards stepped ashore it is conjectured that 90% of American Indians had previously died off

    Conjectured by whom? Where?

    and the Maya were already a ruined civilization. Explorers of the interior reported that Mound Culture sites were ghost towns.

    The Maya appear to have hit a Malthusian limit, perhaps the tipping point had to do with the same 13th century climate shift that drove the ancient Puebloans off of their mesa, and other desert tribes down to more reliable water sources.

    In any event, the Aztecs picked up where they left off, in a sense. Until Tenochticlan was devastated by disease.

    In what is now the US Southeast, De Soto's expedition encountered empty villages long before anyone got far enough up the Mississippi to see the built up mounds.

    And this just shortly after arrival, too brief a time to have been wiped out by the recently arrived Spanish.

    How do you know? What was the rate of propagation of smallpox in the 15th century?
    In Europe people fleeing from plague often carried it with them to the next safe place, which then became very much unsafe. Very likely something similar happened in the Americas.
  88. @Hail
    I am thinking of this US federal law introduced and passed in 1990:

    "Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act."


    A few archeologists are concerned that they are being prevented from studying ancient remains which cannot be traced to any historic tribe
     
    Tangential on the name of that bill. 1990 seems early in the rise of the term "Native American," which, afaik, only began coming into use in the sense of "Red Indian of North America" in the 1980s, with earliest origins in what I presume is the left-wing academic fringe in the late '70s.

    As of 1990, "Native American" must still have sounded to many like "Latinx" sounds to us today. Its breakthrough period was really the 1990s.

    See Ngram for "Native Americans" :

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Native+American%2CNative+Americans&year_start=1960&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=1&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CNative%20American%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CNative%20Americans%3B%2Cc0

    I recall being at Boy Scout camp in the mid 90s, and we had an “Indian Lore” class. So this would seem to be just as usage of “Native American” was plateauing. And I recall there being an annoying, whiny, chinless kid, very pimply, with huge whiteheads all over. And he stands up and gives a whole “we should call this class ‘Native American Lore’” spiel.

    And the instructor — maybe you’d call him a camp counselor? — very athletic and built fellow, calmly tore apart each of his points, and that was the end of it.

    But to this day, whenever I hear “you should call them Native Americans”, I think of that chinless kid and all his whiteheads. Which is not to blame him for his parents’ failure to spring for a dermatologist, but also looks to me like evidence that physiognomy is real.

    Still, while I viscerally object to “Native Americans”, I would posit that, objectively, it’s stupid and confusing that we call them “Indians”. It’s just that the term “Native Americans” manages to be even dumber and also confusing. The Canadian term “First Nations” is pretty hokey but probably better than either of our terms. The Australians seem to be the only ones who picked the correct word with “aborigines”. You could call them “autochthones”, but I don’t see that catching on, despite its cool, almost Lovecraftian vibe.

    • Thanks: Hail
    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    And I recall there being an annoying, whiny, chinless kid, very pimply, with huge whiteheads all over. And he stands up and gives a whole “we should call this class ‘Native American Lore’” spiel.
     
    Did he look like this?:

    https://www.planearium.de/bilder/charaktere/char_kyle1.jpg
  89. Your paypal button is broken.

  90. @El Dato
    That Tweet by La Dame Das should be framed ... "virtuous lifestyle od the twiterrati in the early 21st century"

    Subhadra Das Retweeted:

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Is this one of those newer museums where it's sharing a building? It's probably hard to find, the doorbell is hidden by some decorative flourish, and you have people trying the wrong door.
    , @anonymous
    What will they have on exhibit, The Hall of Rags?

    Please tell me you made this up.

    Please.
    , @El Dato
    Thrilling indeed.

    https://i.imgur.com/XxCHsWW.jpg
  91. @Reg Cæsar

    ...so it may not qualify for Steve’s purposes.
     
    At those latitudes, there are no "opposite sides of the Atlantic". It's all short hops from the British Isles to the Faroes to Iceland to Greenland to Baffin Island and Labrador. It's the roof of the Atlantic.

    Geologically, Greenland and Hokkaido are part of North America.

    Yes, Farley Mowatt wrote an interesting book called “The Farfarers”. Which postulated European visits to North America. I don’t think it’s taken very seriously by scholars, but interesting nonetheless.

  92. @Daniel Williams
    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    That’s setting the bar low, don’t ya think?

  93. @Hail

    we’ve yet to find definitive genetic evidence that anybody alive today is descended from a man and woman who were born on opposite sides of the Atlantic before the 15th-century Age of Exploration.
     
    As far as I understand, there is a ban in effect on testing Amerindian skeletons.

    This is a shame.

    As far as I understand, there is a ban in effect on testing Amerindian skeletons.

    To let Tribes reclaim and bury various museum relics, Congress passed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act of 1990.

    However, the act has been used by Tribes to claim any and all ancient skeletons found since then, thus shielding them from testing; lest the testing uncover any uncomfortable challenges to the Narrative.

    So I suppose, with Tribal approval, one could test; or find a skeleton no one claims.

    • Thanks: Hail
    • Replies: @BB753
    What a ridiculous piece of legislation! It's as if any modern European ethnic group could claim any skeleton dug up in any part of Europe as their ancestors.
    I don't even think anybody has any rights to ancient skeletal remains. Keep that right in the direct family, and no longer than 4 generations.
  94. @YetAnotherAnon
    Isn't Puerto Rico's figure distorted by Microsoft making most of their added value there, presumably for tax reasons?

    Microsoft did not exist in 1956.

    The data above are from Maddison, and do refer to estimates of per capita product.

    The Census data on personal income would not include corporate earnings booked to the territory. The Census Bureau has it that earnings per household on Puerto Rico are about 35% of the national mean and personal income per household about 39% of the national mean in 2017. So, yes, the Maddison data needs some footnotes.

  95. @Anon
    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic. That is some scary ass piece of ocean, even with GPS and satellite weather. There's also a genre of YouTube videos made by general aviation pilots making their way to Europe via Iceland in small propeller aircraft, which show ocean passages from above.

    OT

    Re Angela Saini deleting her Twitter: Butthurt women deleting their Twitter accounts has become the modern equivalent of a woman breaking out in tears or fainting as a way to win an argument and get men, and women, to trash the male adversary and supporting the woman. It's impressive how millennia of evolutionary psychology manages to adapt to new environments.

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter

    … is a very interesting development – one that probably indicates that someone let her know that her days as a public intellectual were numbered.

    My bet: having the temerity to try to finger-wag at Dawkins, turned out to be a career-ending error. His social circle is unbelievable – and the guy pretty much invented the idea of memes.

    One meme worth quoting: “You Come At The King, You Best Not Miss”.

    So like everyone on the planet, I was quite surprised when Dawkins did that tweet about reading Saini’s schlock. (His Twitter timeline is one of 3 that I read, and rewarding).

    [MORE]

    After a few minutes it struck me that it may have been Gervais-level (or even Jeselnik-level) trolling – the tweet was effectively a mini-commentary on the auto da fé that would be expected of him by Bellarmines in the SJW crowd.

    What better way to ‘sic’ the Internet Hate Machine on her? With complete, total deniability – in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies that SJWs get when they get a superior man to prostrate themselves.

    .

    It fits with Dawkins’ very high intelligence, and his puckish sense of humour.

    Give the fanbase the impression that you – a celebrated, militant (and beloved[1]) rationalist whose entire professional life has been dedicated to science – had understood the requirement to go through the usual self-abasement and genuflection. (As if the initial tweet about eugenics was an error of judgement – lol).

    This will not stand!” was probably heard in a million parents’ basements, whereupon the d0xxing of Saini would have commenced in earnest.

    .

    I might be seeing eggs and counting chickens, but this almost certainly ends her – the same way that Pinker’s tear-down ended Malcolm Gladwell.

    Given that she’s a typical midwit SJW self-promoter, the shallow pool of Twitter (and its massive reach) is absolutely vital for the likes of her – and it has no memory, so she can’t get those followers back just by turning up.

    I have no idea if she (or anyone else) gave an excuse for her departure: a Google of “Why did Angela Saini quit Twitter” produces literally zero useful or relevant information on page 1, which is odd considering how good Google is at search.

    .

    For the moment, it goes in the ‘win’ column though (along with Gladwell and drug-addled psychosophaster Jordan fucking Peterson).

    Hopefully Brian Cox and Neil de Grasse Tyson are next for the block: they are as irritating as Michio Kaku and David Suzuki.

    [1] Do not think for a second that ‘beloved’ is over-egging the pudding, when it comes to the affection (rightly) directed at Dawkins by his fans.

    I fancy myself as a brutal judgemental cunt when it comes to ‘public intellectuals’, but the only fault I have ever detected in Dawkins was that he was prepared to have Christopher Hitchens – a literally-third-rate pretentious hack fuckwit – in his inner circle. (Probably for US exposure, because Yanks think Hitchens was smart because he was an Islamophobe who had no issues with neoconservatism).

    Why ‘literally-third-rate’? Simple, silly – he took a Third at Balliol. Terrific college, but even in the 1970 a Third in PPE marked you out as an intellectual also-ran – it’s basically an Oxford Fail.

    In S01E05 of “Yes, Prime Minister“, Sir Humphrey said “A second at Oxford counts as an Upper Second, at least.“, but even he would not have employed a Third (even though his fictional college – Baillie – was clearly modelled on Balliol).

    inb4 Hitchens was busy doing cool and exciting things” – so was Boris Johnson: he was head of the Union, played rugby for Bailliol, and he barely missed out on a First (and in ‘Greats‘, not fucking PPE). And he was a King’s Scholar at Eton, and a Pop.

    Not bad for a part-Turk deafie Yank (TIL he was born in the USA: I think Springsteen might have written a song about it KEK).

    All Hitchens did was experiment with Marxism and bumming – if he was genuinely half-bright he would have got a First (especially in PPE).

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "Why ‘literally-third-rate’? Simple, silly – he took a Third at Balliol."

    Not heard of the Gentleman's Third? Remember he was at uni before tuition fees or student loans. It was a different country - they did things differently then.


    "The last thing they want is an education or, heaven forbid, a rounded personality.

    Yet that was the whole point of the gentleman's third. It signalled somebody who was compos mentis and could get through such minimum academic rigours as the university presented. Yet the proud owners of a third-class degree had spent their time in more enriching pursuits. They had acted, edited magazines, written novels, shone on the sports field or river, even set up their own businesses. And, sure, some of them got drunk, took drugs and went to parties. The university was the environment that gave them the opportunity and indulgence to make a start on all these non-vocational areas of human endeavour."
     

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/a-lament-for-the-third-class-degree-1110167.html

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/leading-article-the-gentlemans-third-under-threat-1482283.html

    , @MEH 0910
    Angela Saini claimed in her penultimate tweet that she is taking a Twitter hiatus because she is writing a new book.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/my-review-of-adam-rutherfords-how-to-argue-with-a-racist/#comment-3725326

    Folks, thank you for the huge love you've shown me on Twitter (trolls aside). I have just agreed to write a big new book (details later) and as such, I have to close Twitter for a while so I won't be distracted. Will be pausing this account in one hour. Just giving you notice!

    — Angela Saini (@AngelaDSaini) February 19, 2020
     
    , @Lot
    Listen bro if you’re going to post on Adderall like that the polite thing is to offer to share with the group.
    , @JMcG
    I hope to have a beer with you someday, K.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard

    ...in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies...
     
    Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks Dear Old Ange is seriously misdirecting her life energy....
  96. From my blog:

    Mar 19, 2015 – The Basque “Discovered” America?

    When Jacques Cartier mapped the mouth of the St Lawrence River in 1535, he reported there were a many Basque fishing boats already there. The Basques of northern Spain have always asserted that their fishermen where summering off the American coast for decades before 1492, harvesting cod and whale. The crew of Columbus’ ships were mostly Basque, including his navigator! There’s lots on the Internet about this plausible claim, this Google group discussion for example.

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.history.medieval/Zfd47nVYf4o

    There is lots of hard archeological proof from old Basque fishing camps in the Americas from the early 1500s, but hard proof prior to 1492 has yet to appear. Fishermen set up Summer camps to gut and dry/salt their cod/whale meat and barrel whale oil before sailing home. Had the Basque discovered great fishing areas along the American coast prior to 1492, it is unlikely they would have announced this discovery to the world.

  97. Are Any Living Humans Descended from Pre-1492 Trans-Atlantic Contacts?

    I don’t know. Might a more salient, or at least more woke question be whether there are any living humans descended from pre-1492 transgender (or gender-non-conforming/non-binary) contacts?

    At least, Elizabeth Warren might say so…
    (“cornerstone of our democracy” and all…)

    • LOL: BB753
  98. @MEH 0910
    Subhadra Das Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/vagina_museum/status/1229347442748948480

    Is this one of those newer museums where it’s sharing a building? It’s probably hard to find, the doorbell is hidden by some decorative flourish, and you have people trying the wrong door.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    It's also only open three weeks each month....
    , @anon
    Plus the exhibition isn't a one time thing, it's more of a traveling show that returns regularly.

    Wait, isn't this show TRANSPHOBIC?
  99. OT: Former Sanders Justice advisor was arrested today for plotting a massive jailbreak. What noxious, silly, childish freaks these leftists are. They’re all insane and need to be institutionalized for reprogramming back to normality.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fmr-sanders-consultant-arrested-after-allegedly-planting-weapons-in-jail-for-evil-escape-plot

    • Thanks: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Evil, yes. Insane, no. Leftist jailbreaks involving guns have historically not only worked but are remembered proudly by respectable leftist academics. DuckDuckGo did not return a non-hagiographic response on the first page (and yes SwissCows is better):
    https://www.democracynow.org/2018/12/24/angela_davis_on_running_from_the
    It is delicious to hear Bloomberg not only self-destroy his best chance at winning but also in the most recent debate to be dogpiled and ravaged like an exiled Skeksis for being the sane man in the room. The sound clip where he says the word "communism" and the whole room is shocked is audio gold.
  100. @songbird
    Thanks, I didn't realize Squanto made the round-trip.

    Guess I must have forgotten it, and got him confused with that other fellow, Samoset. That was when I was in the 2nd Grade, so a long time ago.

    Strange how he survived a few years in Europe (and even London), but only lived a few after he returned.

    I think Squanto made the round trip twice.

    When he came back the second time, his entire tribe had been wiped out by disease. Which is why when the Mayflower landed the land was empty.

    After about half the Mayflower colonists died, the local tribesmen Squanto was living with decided to help the Pilgrims, at the request of Squanto. Squanto and the local Indians were impressed by the way adult Pilgrims would willingly die of starvation in order to feed the children. That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.
     
    An opportunity squantered!
    , @songbird
    Squanto is probably a more interesting figure than Sacagawea, but I guess it is more than just the feminist angle. He doesn't have the connection to the West.
    , @Philip Owen
    It was a bit more complicated than that. Squanto was actually a slave of the Whampanoags. Trade goods smoothed the Pilgrims way. Squanto had previously spent time in Newfoundland en route bak home where he learnt the fish head technique from the European fishing settlements there. John Smith (yes that one) delivered Squanto in his ship. Previously Squanto and Smith, expecially Squanto, had worked as share promoters in London selling shares in the Newfoundland company. Squanto was not a helpless victim when in England.

    It is not clear how accurate the Mayflower log is about being blown off course. The whole thing might have been a property speculation by Squanto and Smith that went wrong. The Pilgrims were troubled by their lack of proper title to the land until they took some starving Pequot survivors into the colony during a famine.

    Certainly a British historian has written a book with this spin on the story. Incidentally, Squanto was not the only English speaker, although the best. A Whampanoag also spoke English. There may have been a tradition of them joining ships' crews.

    , @Twodees Partain
    Well...that was the movie version. I saw that silly film when it came out.
  101. @J.Ross
    Is this one of those newer museums where it's sharing a building? It's probably hard to find, the doorbell is hidden by some decorative flourish, and you have people trying the wrong door.

    It’s also only open three weeks each month….

  102. @Kratoklastes

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter
     
    ... is a very interesting development - one that probably indicates that someone let her know that her days as a public intellectual were numbered.

    My bet: having the temerity to try to finger-wag at Dawkins, turned out to be a career-ending error. His social circle is unbelievable - and the guy pretty much invented the idea of memes.

    One meme worth quoting: "You Come At The King, You Best Not Miss".

    So like everyone on the planet, I was quite surprised when Dawkins did that tweet about reading Saini's schlock. (His Twitter timeline is one of 3 that I read, and rewarding).

    After a few minutes it struck me that it may have been Gervais-level (or even Jeselnik-level) trolling - the tweet was effectively a mini-commentary on the auto da fé that would be expected of him by Bellarmines in the SJW crowd.

    What better way to 'sic' the Internet Hate Machine on her? With complete, total deniability - in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies that SJWs get when they get a superior man to prostrate themselves.

    .

    It fits with Dawkins' very high intelligence, and his puckish sense of humour.

    Give the fanbase the impression that you - a celebrated, militant (and beloved[1]) rationalist whose entire professional life has been dedicated to science - had understood the requirement to go through the usual self-abasement and genuflection. (As if the initial tweet about eugenics was an error of judgement - lol).

    "This will not stand!" was probably heard in a million parents' basements, whereupon the d0xxing of Saini would have commenced in earnest.

    .

    I might be seeing eggs and counting chickens, but this almost certainly ends her - the same way that Pinker's tear-down ended Malcolm Gladwell.

    Given that she's a typical midwit SJW self-promoter, the shallow pool of Twitter (and its massive reach) is absolutely vital for the likes of her - and it has no memory, so she can't get those followers back just by turning up.

    I have no idea if she (or anyone else) gave an excuse for her departure: a Google of "Why did Angela Saini quit Twitter" produces literally zero useful or relevant information on page 1, which is odd considering how good Google is at search.

    .

    For the moment, it goes in the 'win' column though (along with Gladwell and drug-addled psychosophaster Jordan fucking Peterson).

    Hopefully Brian Cox and Neil de Grasse Tyson are next for the block: they are as irritating as Michio Kaku and David Suzuki.

    [1] Do not think for a second that 'beloved' is over-egging the pudding, when it comes to the affection (rightly) directed at Dawkins by his fans.

    I fancy myself as a brutal judgemental cunt when it comes to 'public intellectuals', but the only fault I have ever detected in Dawkins was that he was prepared to have Christopher Hitchens - a literally-third-rate pretentious hack fuckwit - in his inner circle. (Probably for US exposure, because Yanks think Hitchens was smart because he was an Islamophobe who had no issues with neoconservatism).

    Why 'literally-third-rate'? Simple, silly - he took a Third at Balliol. Terrific college, but even in the 1970 a Third in PPE marked you out as an intellectual also-ran - it's basically an Oxford Fail.

    In S01E05 of "Yes, Prime Minister", Sir Humphrey said "A second at Oxford counts as an Upper Second, at least.", but even he would not have employed a Third (even though his fictional college - Baillie - was clearly modelled on Balliol).

    inb4 "Hitchens was busy doing cool and exciting things" - so was Boris Johnson: he was head of the Union, played rugby for Bailliol, and he barely missed out on a First (and in 'Greats', not fucking PPE). And he was a King's Scholar at Eton, and a Pop.

    Not bad for a part-Turk deafie Yank (TIL he was born in the USA: I think Springsteen might have written a song about it KEK).

    All Hitchens did was experiment with Marxism and bumming - if he was genuinely half-bright he would have got a First (especially in PPE).

    “Why ‘literally-third-rate’? Simple, silly – he took a Third at Balliol.”

    Not heard of the Gentleman’s Third? Remember he was at uni before tuition fees or student loans. It was a different country – they did things differently then.

    “The last thing they want is an education or, heaven forbid, a rounded personality.

    Yet that was the whole point of the gentleman’s third. It signalled somebody who was compos mentis and could get through such minimum academic rigours as the university presented. Yet the proud owners of a third-class degree had spent their time in more enriching pursuits. They had acted, edited magazines, written novels, shone on the sports field or river, even set up their own businesses. And, sure, some of them got drunk, took drugs and went to parties. The university was the environment that gave them the opportunity and indulgence to make a start on all these non-vocational areas of human endeavour.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/a-lament-for-the-third-class-degree-1110167.html

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/leading-article-the-gentlemans-third-under-threat-1482283.html

  103. @Anon
    OT: Former Sanders Justice advisor was arrested today for plotting a massive jailbreak. What noxious, silly, childish freaks these leftists are. They're all insane and need to be institutionalized for reprogramming back to normality.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fmr-sanders-consultant-arrested-after-allegedly-planting-weapons-in-jail-for-evil-escape-plot

    Evil, yes. Insane, no. Leftist jailbreaks involving guns have historically not only worked but are remembered proudly by respectable leftist academics. DuckDuckGo did not return a non-hagiographic response on the first page (and yes SwissCows is better):
    https://www.democracynow.org/2018/12/24/angela_davis_on_running_from_the
    It is delicious to hear Bloomberg not only self-destroy his best chance at winning but also in the most recent debate to be dogpiled and ravaged like an exiled Skeksis for being the sane man in the room. The sound clip where he says the word “communism” and the whole room is shocked is audio gold.

    • Replies: @bomag

    ...to be dogpiled and ravaged like an exiled Skeksis for being the sane man in the room.
     
    Heh.

    Weird that he is running as a sane outsider; but begins his campaign with an apology tour and promises to be like every other good thinking Democrat.
  104. @Kratoklastes

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter
     
    ... is a very interesting development - one that probably indicates that someone let her know that her days as a public intellectual were numbered.

    My bet: having the temerity to try to finger-wag at Dawkins, turned out to be a career-ending error. His social circle is unbelievable - and the guy pretty much invented the idea of memes.

    One meme worth quoting: "You Come At The King, You Best Not Miss".

    So like everyone on the planet, I was quite surprised when Dawkins did that tweet about reading Saini's schlock. (His Twitter timeline is one of 3 that I read, and rewarding).

    After a few minutes it struck me that it may have been Gervais-level (or even Jeselnik-level) trolling - the tweet was effectively a mini-commentary on the auto da fé that would be expected of him by Bellarmines in the SJW crowd.

    What better way to 'sic' the Internet Hate Machine on her? With complete, total deniability - in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies that SJWs get when they get a superior man to prostrate themselves.

    .

    It fits with Dawkins' very high intelligence, and his puckish sense of humour.

    Give the fanbase the impression that you - a celebrated, militant (and beloved[1]) rationalist whose entire professional life has been dedicated to science - had understood the requirement to go through the usual self-abasement and genuflection. (As if the initial tweet about eugenics was an error of judgement - lol).

    "This will not stand!" was probably heard in a million parents' basements, whereupon the d0xxing of Saini would have commenced in earnest.

    .

    I might be seeing eggs and counting chickens, but this almost certainly ends her - the same way that Pinker's tear-down ended Malcolm Gladwell.

    Given that she's a typical midwit SJW self-promoter, the shallow pool of Twitter (and its massive reach) is absolutely vital for the likes of her - and it has no memory, so she can't get those followers back just by turning up.

    I have no idea if she (or anyone else) gave an excuse for her departure: a Google of "Why did Angela Saini quit Twitter" produces literally zero useful or relevant information on page 1, which is odd considering how good Google is at search.

    .

    For the moment, it goes in the 'win' column though (along with Gladwell and drug-addled psychosophaster Jordan fucking Peterson).

    Hopefully Brian Cox and Neil de Grasse Tyson are next for the block: they are as irritating as Michio Kaku and David Suzuki.

    [1] Do not think for a second that 'beloved' is over-egging the pudding, when it comes to the affection (rightly) directed at Dawkins by his fans.

    I fancy myself as a brutal judgemental cunt when it comes to 'public intellectuals', but the only fault I have ever detected in Dawkins was that he was prepared to have Christopher Hitchens - a literally-third-rate pretentious hack fuckwit - in his inner circle. (Probably for US exposure, because Yanks think Hitchens was smart because he was an Islamophobe who had no issues with neoconservatism).

    Why 'literally-third-rate'? Simple, silly - he took a Third at Balliol. Terrific college, but even in the 1970 a Third in PPE marked you out as an intellectual also-ran - it's basically an Oxford Fail.

    In S01E05 of "Yes, Prime Minister", Sir Humphrey said "A second at Oxford counts as an Upper Second, at least.", but even he would not have employed a Third (even though his fictional college - Baillie - was clearly modelled on Balliol).

    inb4 "Hitchens was busy doing cool and exciting things" - so was Boris Johnson: he was head of the Union, played rugby for Bailliol, and he barely missed out on a First (and in 'Greats', not fucking PPE). And he was a King's Scholar at Eton, and a Pop.

    Not bad for a part-Turk deafie Yank (TIL he was born in the USA: I think Springsteen might have written a song about it KEK).

    All Hitchens did was experiment with Marxism and bumming - if he was genuinely half-bright he would have got a First (especially in PPE).

    Angela Saini claimed in her penultimate tweet that she is taking a Twitter hiatus because she is writing a new book.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/my-review-of-adam-rutherfords-how-to-argue-with-a-racist/#comment-3725326

    Folks, thank you for the huge love you’ve shown me on Twitter (trolls aside). I have just agreed to write a big new book (details later) and as such, I have to close Twitter for a while so I won’t be distracted. Will be pausing this account in one hour. Just giving you notice!

    — Angela Saini (@AngelaDSaini) February 19, 2020

    • Replies: @Abe

    Angela Saini claimed in her penultimate tweet that she is taking a Twitter hiatus because she is writing a new book.
     
    “I wish I could tell you Dawkins played a masterful game of 4-D trolling chess and the SJW mobs let him be. I wish I could tell you that. But Twitter is no fairy tale world...”

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ikixg0sE7JY

    , @El Dato
    Philip K. Dick's last book: "The Penultimate Tweet".

    She must really be churning out those books. Pulp stuff wrapped in hardcover.
  105. @Paleo Liberal
    I think Squanto made the round trip twice.

    When he came back the second time, his entire tribe had been wiped out by disease. Which is why when the Mayflower landed the land was empty.

    After about half the Mayflower colonists died, the local tribesmen Squanto was living with decided to help the Pilgrims, at the request of Squanto. Squanto and the local Indians were impressed by the way adult Pilgrims would willingly die of starvation in order to feed the children. That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.

    That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.

    An opportunity squantered!

    • Agree: JMcG
    • LOL: Paleo Liberal
  106. The Welsh allegedly reached Alabama and founded the Mandan Indian tribe. Welsh speaking Lewis of Lewis & Clarke supposedly found them further north and he found some words they spoke recognizable in particular words for boats.

    And the Cornish, Bretons and particularly the Basques went cod fishing on the Grand Banks before Columbus found the Caribbean. It seems incredible that they did not camp on Newfoundland.

  107. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    OT:

    There Is Such A Thing As Too Safe A Space:

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/she-wanted-a-freebirth-at-home-when-the-baby-died-the-attacks-began

    The stillbirth of Journey Moon prompted sympathy—and a backlash.

    In the photos, Journey Moon looks peaceful. Her eyes are closed, her tiny body swaddled in blankets. She rests on her mother’s chest, the slight bruising around her face the only indication of what happened: that she was born dead, at 42 weeks, after six days of painful labor.

    This was no ordinary stillbirth. Journey Moon’s mother, Lisa*, spent those six excruciating days in a remote desert home, laboring alone—aside from her husband and the virtual company of more than 6,000 members of a private Facebook group.
    ADVERTISING

    Lisa was a member of the now-defunct Free Birth Society, an online community for women who insist on having their babies outside the hospital, with no medical intervention. Like other members, Lisa had pledged to have her baby without the help of a doctor, doula, or midwife.

    And like many members, Lisa kept the group updated throughout her labor. In posts on the private group wall, she walked them through her contractions and dilation, her pain and her moments of doubt. The members responded with messages of support, calling her a “warrior woman” and urging her to “trust the process.” After three days of this, Lisa went silent.

    Then, on Oct. 8, she posted a final update.

    “Journey Moon was born a sleeping angel on Oct. 7 at 8 lbs 13 oz,” she wrote. “She passed due to a massive urinary tract infection I had… I’m laying in the hospital writing this and get to go home tomorrow. We will be having Journey cremated.”

    Most of the group members were supportive of Lisa. But others, including skeptics monitoring the page, were outraged that Lisa had put her baby’s life at risk for a “misguided” movement. What happened next shed light not only on the freebirthers, but on a group of outsiders set on stopping them.
    Lisa and her husband marked Journey Moon’s death with these pendants.

    Freebirth, or home birth without assistance, is a still-rare but increasingly popular practice in the U.S. Thanks in large part to social media, the phenomenon has gone from a back-of-the-cab accident to a conscious lifestyle choice. In blog posts and viral videos, its adherents extoll the benefits of birthing at home or even in the wild. There are entire podcasts dedicated to freebirthing, with women discussing the “ecstatic” experience of giving birth in a snowed-in yurt or on a remote Hawaiian island.
    ADVERTISING

    Freebirthers see childbirth as a miracle, not a medical emergency. To them, labor does not involve contractions but “waves” or “surges,” and doctors don’t deliver babies—women give birth to them.

    The movement is rooted in a dissatisfaction with the current obstetrical model: Freebirthers want to know why so many women come back from the hospital feeling more broken than when they went in. They note that 30 percent of mothers in the U.S. have cesarean sections, and thousands more get unwanted episiotomies. They contend that nearly 60 percent of birth attendants and educators have seen a doctor perform some kind of procedure “explicitly against the wishes of the woman.”

    On a recent podcast, women’s rights attorney Hermine Hayes-Klein wondered aloud whether women could truly be said to have rights when “nobody around you knows about your right, respects your right, and when there’s no accountability for the violation of your right.”

    “That is the situation in which women are giving birth in the United States,” she added.

    But there are other statistics to consider.

    Bruce Young, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the NYU School of Medicine, said the average woman could expect a home birth to go smoothly about 80 percent of the time. The other 20 percent would likely involve life-threatening complications for the mother or child.
    “I’d rather have a living baby and a cesarean birth than have a dead baby or be dead myself.”
    — Dr. Bruce Young

    In a hospital, Young said, the risk of adverse outcomes drops to less than 1 percent—though it depends on how you define the term.

    “If you define the adverse outcome as having a dead baby or a dead mom, then [the risk is] much less than 1 percent,” he said. “But if you define it as having a cesarean birth, it’s 20 to 25 percent, so that’s the trade-off.”

    “I’d rather have a living baby and a cesarean birth than have a dead baby or be dead myself,” he added.

    Despite the risk, a growing number of women are deciding to go it alone. And some of them, “alone” means armed with the support of thousands of other women, in Facebook communities like the Free Birth Society.

    Run by Emilee Saldaya—a former home-birth midwife’s assistant turned “radical birthkeeping” coach—the Free Birth Society was the largest unassisted-birth page on Facebook before it closed down. Its 6,200 members ran the gamut from crystal-toting Goop readers to blue-collar women who had experienced trauma in past hospital births.

    Members rejoiced in each other’s pregnancies, answered each other’s questions, and commiserated over those who didn’t understand their choice. They also subscribed to a strict code of conduct: Comments encouraging other members to seek treatment, or questioning a women’s autonomy in any way, would quickly be deleted.

    For more than a year, the Facebook group served as a kind of echo chamber for women making a decision that everyone else thought was wrong, who just wanted someone to tell them that it would all be OK.

    But everything did not go OK for Lisa. The 29-year-old Californian told The Daily Beast she had lived “off the grid” with her husband for the last three years. She described herself as “free-spirited, natural, minimalistic, and health-conscious,” and said she knew from the start that she wanted to have a home birth.

  108. @Paleo Liberal
    There have always been all sorts of antics among members of Congress. Those of us of a certain age can remember the Wilbur Mills episode with a Latin American stripper named Fannie Fox. Having more women and non-whites simply means the scandals are not exclusive to white men.

    Also, the scandals might be covered up a bit less these days. The Mills episode was uncovered because a Washington reporter happened to see the DC Police send Mills on his way after catching him driving drunk with a stripper in his car.

    A side note: my father met Wilbur Mills twice — once before Mills’ alcoholism and once during. My father worked for the government and had to occasionally work with Congress. The first time he said Mills was one of the most brilliant men he ever met. The second time he was a drunken shadow of his former self.

    Isn’t she the one that yumped into the Tidal Basin or am I misremembering?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    You are correct.

    https://arktimes.com/news/the-big-picture/2014/10/23/wilbur-mills-and-fanne-fox
  109. @MEH 0910
    Angela Saini claimed in her penultimate tweet that she is taking a Twitter hiatus because she is writing a new book.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/my-review-of-adam-rutherfords-how-to-argue-with-a-racist/#comment-3725326

    Folks, thank you for the huge love you've shown me on Twitter (trolls aside). I have just agreed to write a big new book (details later) and as such, I have to close Twitter for a while so I won't be distracted. Will be pausing this account in one hour. Just giving you notice!

    — Angela Saini (@AngelaDSaini) February 19, 2020
     

    Angela Saini claimed in her penultimate tweet that she is taking a Twitter hiatus because she is writing a new book.

    “I wish I could tell you Dawkins played a masterful game of 4-D trolling chess and the SJW mobs let him be. I wish I could tell you that. But Twitter is no fairy tale world…”

  110. More and more reports of robberies of legal pot shops. Crime is bad, mmkay, but for thugs this is as lapfallen-genius as DiBlasio’s get out of bail free idea or the blue metropoli protecting rapists and murderers from ICE. A legal marihuana dispensary is a popular place with a cash register which is guaranteed to not have any firearms on the premises. Once you’re okay with robbery, how do you not knock that over? The staff are unlikely to have the energy to resist, and might not want to participate in police cooperation programs. And if you ever get tired of the green stuff you can just steal their stock.
    https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/02/21/armed-robbery-at-suspected-illegal-marijuana-dispensary-in-detroit-ends-with-1-dead-another-injured/
    Remember when pot legalization was going to reduce violence?

  111. @MEH 0910
    Subhadra Das Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/vagina_museum/status/1229347442748948480

    What will they have on exhibit, The Hall of Rags?

    Please tell me you made this up.

    Please.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    Subhadra Das Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/ellietheelement/status/1230817814119931910
  112. @Federalist
    That article was very interesting. I guess no one will be allowed to look into it scientifically because the results might violate our secular theology.

    That’s my take as well. That author has been hounded and marginalized by the official state historians in Georgia and NC, and had his site taken down along with his online archive of articles going back several years. The official historical tale is being spun that the Cherokee have been in the Appalachians for 10,000 years and that there no other tribes of any note during that time.

    The actual historical fact is that the Cherokee showed up in the area in the 18th century and had nothing to do with the mounds and peteroglyphs that establish the connection to Bronze Age Scandinavia and Ireland. The author’s videos are still on Youtube, though his original site is gone:

    • Thanks: bomag
  113. @Paleo Liberal
    I think Squanto made the round trip twice.

    When he came back the second time, his entire tribe had been wiped out by disease. Which is why when the Mayflower landed the land was empty.

    After about half the Mayflower colonists died, the local tribesmen Squanto was living with decided to help the Pilgrims, at the request of Squanto. Squanto and the local Indians were impressed by the way adult Pilgrims would willingly die of starvation in order to feed the children. That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.

    Squanto is probably a more interesting figure than Sacagawea, but I guess it is more than just the feminist angle. He doesn’t have the connection to the West.

  114. @Reg Cæsar

    ...so it may not qualify for Steve’s purposes.
     
    At those latitudes, there are no "opposite sides of the Atlantic". It's all short hops from the British Isles to the Faroes to Iceland to Greenland to Baffin Island and Labrador. It's the roof of the Atlantic.

    Geologically, Greenland and Hokkaido are part of North America.

    “Geologically, Greenland and Hokkaido are part of North America.?” Really ? Greenland OK but how is Hokkaido part of North America ?

  115. @MEH 0910
    Subhadra Das Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/vagina_museum/status/1229347442748948480

    Thrilling indeed.

    • LOL: MEH 0910
  116. anon[180] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThreeCranes

    "why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish?"
     
    Probably they did just that. And diseases from Portuguese fishermen who operated off the coast of Newfoundland as well.

    Remember, when the Spaniards stepped ashore it is conjectured that 90% of American Indians had previously died off and the Maya were already a ruined civilization. Explorers of the interior reported that Mound Culture sites were ghost towns. And this just shortly after arrival, too brief a time to have been wiped out by the recently arrived Spanish.

    Remember, when the Spaniards stepped ashore it is conjectured that 90% of American Indians had previously died off

    Conjectured by whom? Where?

    and the Maya were already a ruined civilization. Explorers of the interior reported that Mound Culture sites were ghost towns.

    The Maya appear to have hit a Malthusian limit, perhaps the tipping point had to do with the same 13th century climate shift that drove the ancient Puebloans off of their mesa, and other desert tribes down to more reliable water sources.

    In any event, the Aztecs picked up where they left off, in a sense. Until Tenochticlan was devastated by disease.

    In what is now the US Southeast, De Soto’s expedition encountered empty villages long before anyone got far enough up the Mississippi to see the built up mounds.

    And this just shortly after arrival, too brief a time to have been wiped out by the recently arrived Spanish.

    How do you know? What was the rate of propagation of smallpox in the 15th century?
    In Europe people fleeing from plague often carried it with them to the next safe place, which then became very much unsafe. Very likely something similar happened in the Americas.

  117. @MEH 0910
    Angela Saini claimed in her penultimate tweet that she is taking a Twitter hiatus because she is writing a new book.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/my-review-of-adam-rutherfords-how-to-argue-with-a-racist/#comment-3725326

    Folks, thank you for the huge love you've shown me on Twitter (trolls aside). I have just agreed to write a big new book (details later) and as such, I have to close Twitter for a while so I won't be distracted. Will be pausing this account in one hour. Just giving you notice!

    — Angela Saini (@AngelaDSaini) February 19, 2020
     

    Philip K. Dick’s last book: “The Penultimate Tweet”.

    She must really be churning out those books. Pulp stuff wrapped in hardcover.

  118. @J.Ross
    Is this one of those newer museums where it's sharing a building? It's probably hard to find, the doorbell is hidden by some decorative flourish, and you have people trying the wrong door.

    Plus the exhibition isn’t a one time thing, it’s more of a traveling show that returns regularly.

    Wait, isn’t this show TRANSPHOBIC?

  119. So the only pure race left on earth are the Highlanders and the Outer Hebrides, other far north Atlantic island peoples ?

    smh… RIP Icelanders

  120. @Abe

    This week when asked Klobuchar and Steyer could not name the president of Mexico.
     
    Watched the debate on our new Black Friday 75” UHD TV . The talking heads of the candidates were substantially larger than life on our screen and even at a mere 2K resolution plenty disturbing. What’s up with Bloomberg’s grandma mustache, for example? He seemed to have this sort of unevenly spaced series of fine white hairs all across his upper lip which looked somehow to be subcutaneous.

    Bernie is one of the candidates I actually ended up liking less after the debate. He honestly seems like a Popular Front-era dullard, his brain still stuck on the freshest 1959-vintage PARTISAN REVIEW hot takes, like when he just had to correct Bloomie about the differences between communism and his own democratic socialism. Would love to see someone with Trump’s ballz and, say, Christopher Caldwell’s erudition troll Bernie on-stage over whether in office he’ll posthumously exonerate Sacco and Vanzetti and see Bernie go into a live pedantic death spiral.

    But, yeah, funny to watch Klobuchar (at our viewing size) visibly shake under all of Buttigieg’s needling. The meltdown about not remembering the Mexican President’s name was classic! Klobuchar very reasonably and graciously tried to field it as an innocent mistake, but when the Telemundo bimbo wouldn’t let up, you could see this realization cross her face like, oh crap, this isn’t your dad’s old Dumbya/Dan Quayle too-dumb-for-the-nuclear-football style of gotcha, it’s one of them new fangled how-dare-you-dishonor-someone-more-intersectional-than-thou!! grovel-able moments. The fleeting battle between lust for power and any last shreds of self-respect fighting it across the horsey battlefield of her face was priceless! Wonder if Bloomie bribed the Telemundo bimbo to lay that ambush on Klobuchar. Wonder if she gave him back a beej as “change”...

  121. @YetAnotherAnon
    "Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago"

    Wasn't she buried in England, where Native American law doesn't yet apply?

    yet

    Good one

  122. @Hail
    I am thinking of this US federal law introduced and passed in 1990:

    "Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act."


    A few archeologists are concerned that they are being prevented from studying ancient remains which cannot be traced to any historic tribe
     
    Tangential on the name of that bill. 1990 seems early in the rise of the term "Native American," which, afaik, only began coming into use in the sense of "Red Indian of North America" in the 1980s, with earliest origins in what I presume is the left-wing academic fringe in the late '70s.

    As of 1990, "Native American" must still have sounded to many like "Latinx" sounds to us today. Its breakthrough period was really the 1990s.

    See Ngram for "Native Americans" :

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Native+American%2CNative+Americans&year_start=1960&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=1&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CNative%20American%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CNative%20Americans%3B%2Cc0

    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today.

    Nope. Native American was all over the newspapers and in common uncontroversial usage among the educated classes by the mid 1980s.

    • Replies: @Hail

    among the educated classes
     
    I rest my case.
    , @anonymous
    Sir, that is what we in the legal profession call horseshit.

    No offense meant.
    , @Reg Cæsar


    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today.

     

    Nope. Native American was all over the newspapers and in common uncontroversial usage among the educated classes by the mid 1980s.

     

    I've seen "native American" in plenty of histories and genealogies from the 1850s to the 1920s. It referred to people like us.

    They also talked of "our immigrant(s) ancestor(s)" in the the Winthrop fleet, or wherever. No, they were not immigrants in the legal sense, but the physical.

    Orestes Brownson wrote a book called "Saint Worship", which sounds blasphemous now, but wasn't then because the word was used more loosely. ("His Worship, the Mayor.") Same with Lazarus being fed "meat" in the King James Version, which is isn't in any other translation.
  123. @Anon
    “Icelanders demand Indian Casino for reparations”

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?


    One more... why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?

    Smallpox arrived in Europe from America around 1500.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    I think that was syphilis?
  124. @Anon
    “Icelanders demand Indian Casino for reparations”

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?


    One more... why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..

    One more… why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?

    Luck of the draw, I suppose. If none of the Vikings came over with an active case of smallpox…

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..>/blockquote>

    WTF? No they did not.
     

     
  125. @Wency
    I recall being at Boy Scout camp in the mid 90s, and we had an "Indian Lore" class. So this would seem to be just as usage of "Native American" was plateauing. And I recall there being an annoying, whiny, chinless kid, very pimply, with huge whiteheads all over. And he stands up and gives a whole "we should call this class 'Native American Lore'" spiel.

    And the instructor -- maybe you'd call him a camp counselor? -- very athletic and built fellow, calmly tore apart each of his points, and that was the end of it.

    But to this day, whenever I hear "you should call them Native Americans", I think of that chinless kid and all his whiteheads. Which is not to blame him for his parents' failure to spring for a dermatologist, but also looks to me like evidence that physiognomy is real.

    Still, while I viscerally object to "Native Americans", I would posit that, objectively, it's stupid and confusing that we call them "Indians". It's just that the term "Native Americans" manages to be even dumber and also confusing. The Canadian term "First Nations" is pretty hokey but probably better than either of our terms. The Australians seem to be the only ones who picked the correct word with "aborigines". You could call them "autochthones", but I don't see that catching on, despite its cool, almost Lovecraftian vibe.

    And I recall there being an annoying, whiny, chinless kid, very pimply, with huge whiteheads all over. And he stands up and gives a whole “we should call this class ‘Native American Lore’” spiel.

    Did he look like this?:

  126. @Hail
    That is an academic consensus position since the early 20th century and so has the weight of tradition believing it was fake. Consider looking into what the believers say.

    I would not be so quick to it is an "obvious fake." More serious people than you may think believe it is an open question. There were people in the 20th century before the 1960s discovery of the Viking sites in Newfoundland who believed the idea of any Viking settlement on the North American continent was also a hoax.

    One good argument against the Kensington Stone is, if it were authentic, why was it only found by a man of recent Scandinavian origin with presumable ethnic motive to fake it?

    Consider looking into what the believers say.

    I have; they’re goons.

    I would not be so quick to it is an “obvious fake.” More serious people than you may think believe it is an open question.

    Serious people can be goons.Goonishness is a universal failing.

  127. @Reg Cæsar

    One good argument against the Kensington Stone is, if it were authentic, why was it only found by a man of recent Scandinavian origin with presumable ethnic motive to fake it?
     
    Except the farmer who found it was incapable of pulling off such a hoax. If it indeed was fake, it would have been the first "expert" he showed it to, the Alan Lomax to the farmer's Leadbelly.

    I'm open to either side's arguments, but have been deeply suspicious of the facile rejection of the possibility of its veracity. It's like the old assumption that our sun was the only star with planets. Now we know of hundreds of other such stars.

    Whether or not medieval Knights Templar made it to the center of our continent, there is no reason to believe they couldn't have. Not centuries after St Brendan.

    Geologist Scott Wolter says the physical evidence suggests that a 19th-century burial is highly unlikely, much less so than a 14th-century one.

    https://www.grandforksherald.com/news/2109921-minnesota-geologist-maintains-authenticity-kensington-rune-stone

    Except the farmer who found it was incapable of pulling off such a hoax.

    Dunno. It’s such a clumsy fake:

  128. @Kratoklastes

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter
     
    ... is a very interesting development - one that probably indicates that someone let her know that her days as a public intellectual were numbered.

    My bet: having the temerity to try to finger-wag at Dawkins, turned out to be a career-ending error. His social circle is unbelievable - and the guy pretty much invented the idea of memes.

    One meme worth quoting: "You Come At The King, You Best Not Miss".

    So like everyone on the planet, I was quite surprised when Dawkins did that tweet about reading Saini's schlock. (His Twitter timeline is one of 3 that I read, and rewarding).

    After a few minutes it struck me that it may have been Gervais-level (or even Jeselnik-level) trolling - the tweet was effectively a mini-commentary on the auto da fé that would be expected of him by Bellarmines in the SJW crowd.

    What better way to 'sic' the Internet Hate Machine on her? With complete, total deniability - in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies that SJWs get when they get a superior man to prostrate themselves.

    .

    It fits with Dawkins' very high intelligence, and his puckish sense of humour.

    Give the fanbase the impression that you - a celebrated, militant (and beloved[1]) rationalist whose entire professional life has been dedicated to science - had understood the requirement to go through the usual self-abasement and genuflection. (As if the initial tweet about eugenics was an error of judgement - lol).

    "This will not stand!" was probably heard in a million parents' basements, whereupon the d0xxing of Saini would have commenced in earnest.

    .

    I might be seeing eggs and counting chickens, but this almost certainly ends her - the same way that Pinker's tear-down ended Malcolm Gladwell.

    Given that she's a typical midwit SJW self-promoter, the shallow pool of Twitter (and its massive reach) is absolutely vital for the likes of her - and it has no memory, so she can't get those followers back just by turning up.

    I have no idea if she (or anyone else) gave an excuse for her departure: a Google of "Why did Angela Saini quit Twitter" produces literally zero useful or relevant information on page 1, which is odd considering how good Google is at search.

    .

    For the moment, it goes in the 'win' column though (along with Gladwell and drug-addled psychosophaster Jordan fucking Peterson).

    Hopefully Brian Cox and Neil de Grasse Tyson are next for the block: they are as irritating as Michio Kaku and David Suzuki.

    [1] Do not think for a second that 'beloved' is over-egging the pudding, when it comes to the affection (rightly) directed at Dawkins by his fans.

    I fancy myself as a brutal judgemental cunt when it comes to 'public intellectuals', but the only fault I have ever detected in Dawkins was that he was prepared to have Christopher Hitchens - a literally-third-rate pretentious hack fuckwit - in his inner circle. (Probably for US exposure, because Yanks think Hitchens was smart because he was an Islamophobe who had no issues with neoconservatism).

    Why 'literally-third-rate'? Simple, silly - he took a Third at Balliol. Terrific college, but even in the 1970 a Third in PPE marked you out as an intellectual also-ran - it's basically an Oxford Fail.

    In S01E05 of "Yes, Prime Minister", Sir Humphrey said "A second at Oxford counts as an Upper Second, at least.", but even he would not have employed a Third (even though his fictional college - Baillie - was clearly modelled on Balliol).

    inb4 "Hitchens was busy doing cool and exciting things" - so was Boris Johnson: he was head of the Union, played rugby for Bailliol, and he barely missed out on a First (and in 'Greats', not fucking PPE). And he was a King's Scholar at Eton, and a Pop.

    Not bad for a part-Turk deafie Yank (TIL he was born in the USA: I think Springsteen might have written a song about it KEK).

    All Hitchens did was experiment with Marxism and bumming - if he was genuinely half-bright he would have got a First (especially in PPE).

    Listen bro if you’re going to post on Adderall like that the polite thing is to offer to share with the group.

  129. @syonredux

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?
     
    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland.....

    One more… why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?
     
    Luck of the draw, I suppose. If none of the Vikings came over with an active case of smallpox...

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..>/blockquote>

    WTF? No they did not.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..>/blockquote>

    WTF? No they did not.
     
    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people......Which would indicate that they weren't exactly pacifists....And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit....One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves.....
  130. @Kratoklastes

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter
     
    ... is a very interesting development - one that probably indicates that someone let her know that her days as a public intellectual were numbered.

    My bet: having the temerity to try to finger-wag at Dawkins, turned out to be a career-ending error. His social circle is unbelievable - and the guy pretty much invented the idea of memes.

    One meme worth quoting: "You Come At The King, You Best Not Miss".

    So like everyone on the planet, I was quite surprised when Dawkins did that tweet about reading Saini's schlock. (His Twitter timeline is one of 3 that I read, and rewarding).

    After a few minutes it struck me that it may have been Gervais-level (or even Jeselnik-level) trolling - the tweet was effectively a mini-commentary on the auto da fé that would be expected of him by Bellarmines in the SJW crowd.

    What better way to 'sic' the Internet Hate Machine on her? With complete, total deniability - in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies that SJWs get when they get a superior man to prostrate themselves.

    .

    It fits with Dawkins' very high intelligence, and his puckish sense of humour.

    Give the fanbase the impression that you - a celebrated, militant (and beloved[1]) rationalist whose entire professional life has been dedicated to science - had understood the requirement to go through the usual self-abasement and genuflection. (As if the initial tweet about eugenics was an error of judgement - lol).

    "This will not stand!" was probably heard in a million parents' basements, whereupon the d0xxing of Saini would have commenced in earnest.

    .

    I might be seeing eggs and counting chickens, but this almost certainly ends her - the same way that Pinker's tear-down ended Malcolm Gladwell.

    Given that she's a typical midwit SJW self-promoter, the shallow pool of Twitter (and its massive reach) is absolutely vital for the likes of her - and it has no memory, so she can't get those followers back just by turning up.

    I have no idea if she (or anyone else) gave an excuse for her departure: a Google of "Why did Angela Saini quit Twitter" produces literally zero useful or relevant information on page 1, which is odd considering how good Google is at search.

    .

    For the moment, it goes in the 'win' column though (along with Gladwell and drug-addled psychosophaster Jordan fucking Peterson).

    Hopefully Brian Cox and Neil de Grasse Tyson are next for the block: they are as irritating as Michio Kaku and David Suzuki.

    [1] Do not think for a second that 'beloved' is over-egging the pudding, when it comes to the affection (rightly) directed at Dawkins by his fans.

    I fancy myself as a brutal judgemental cunt when it comes to 'public intellectuals', but the only fault I have ever detected in Dawkins was that he was prepared to have Christopher Hitchens - a literally-third-rate pretentious hack fuckwit - in his inner circle. (Probably for US exposure, because Yanks think Hitchens was smart because he was an Islamophobe who had no issues with neoconservatism).

    Why 'literally-third-rate'? Simple, silly - he took a Third at Balliol. Terrific college, but even in the 1970 a Third in PPE marked you out as an intellectual also-ran - it's basically an Oxford Fail.

    In S01E05 of "Yes, Prime Minister", Sir Humphrey said "A second at Oxford counts as an Upper Second, at least.", but even he would not have employed a Third (even though his fictional college - Baillie - was clearly modelled on Balliol).

    inb4 "Hitchens was busy doing cool and exciting things" - so was Boris Johnson: he was head of the Union, played rugby for Bailliol, and he barely missed out on a First (and in 'Greats', not fucking PPE). And he was a King's Scholar at Eton, and a Pop.

    Not bad for a part-Turk deafie Yank (TIL he was born in the USA: I think Springsteen might have written a song about it KEK).

    All Hitchens did was experiment with Marxism and bumming - if he was genuinely half-bright he would have got a First (especially in PPE).

    I hope to have a beer with you someday, K.

  131. @anonymous
    Isn't she the one that yumped into the Tidal Basin or am I misremembering?
  132. @(((Owen)))

    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today.
     
    Nope. Native American was all over the newspapers and in common uncontroversial usage among the educated classes by the mid 1980s.

    among the educated classes

    I rest my case.

  133. @YetAnotherAnon
    "Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago"

    Wasn't she buried in England, where Native American law doesn't yet apply?

    I am wondering if the Anon’s comment was a sarcastic reference to Elizabeth Warren (Tweetman’s nickname for whom is “Pocahontas”). I have heard nothing of the 17th-century Amerindian girl called Pocahontas’ remains being genotyped. Link appreciated.

  134. I HAVE NO HORN AND I MUST HONK
    Building owner to pay fines to graffitti idiots for having painted over their graffitti. Millions of dollars in fines. Awarded by a judge who admits to conflict of interest.
    https://archive.is/wip/PdVe

    • LOL: MEH 0910
  135. @JohnPlywood
    R1a or I2/I1 is more likely than R1b if pre-1492.

    Please explain.

    (Fwiw, my paternal line traces to Scandinavia and I am R1b.)

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    Well, on second thought, the Norse did bring Gaelic men along with them to Iceland and Greenland, so it's actually closer to a coin toss. Iceland has a lot of R1b (41%), but it probably isn't Norse. R1b is common in western Europe, typical of countries like Ireland, Spain and England. In Nordic countries it's a minority, except Denmark where it is a plurality. Nordics have more I1, and R1a is usually equal or higher than R1b in percentage (it varies by sample). And Finland is majority N with almost no R1b. R1b is rarer in Nordic countries, at least north of Denmark.
  136. @Alden
    Smallpox arrived in Europe from America around 1500.

    I think that was syphilis?

  137. @Daniel Williams
    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    Laplander influence I always assumed, they are not uncommon in higher latitudes in Scandinavian territory.

  138. @anonymous
    What will they have on exhibit, The Hall of Rags?

    Please tell me you made this up.

    Please.

    Subhadra Das Retweeted:

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Why do the trans men have to make themselves look so...insane?
    , @BB753
    Galton's legacy is in good hands! Thank God!
  139. @Paleo Liberal
    I think Squanto made the round trip twice.

    When he came back the second time, his entire tribe had been wiped out by disease. Which is why when the Mayflower landed the land was empty.

    After about half the Mayflower colonists died, the local tribesmen Squanto was living with decided to help the Pilgrims, at the request of Squanto. Squanto and the local Indians were impressed by the way adult Pilgrims would willingly die of starvation in order to feed the children. That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.

    It was a bit more complicated than that. Squanto was actually a slave of the Whampanoags. Trade goods smoothed the Pilgrims way. Squanto had previously spent time in Newfoundland en route bak home where he learnt the fish head technique from the European fishing settlements there. John Smith (yes that one) delivered Squanto in his ship. Previously Squanto and Smith, expecially Squanto, had worked as share promoters in London selling shares in the Newfoundland company. Squanto was not a helpless victim when in England.

    It is not clear how accurate the Mayflower log is about being blown off course. The whole thing might have been a property speculation by Squanto and Smith that went wrong. The Pilgrims were troubled by their lack of proper title to the land until they took some starving Pequot survivors into the colony during a famine.

    Certainly a British historian has written a book with this spin on the story. Incidentally, Squanto was not the only English speaker, although the best. A Whampanoag also spoke English. There may have been a tradition of them joining ships’ crews.

  140. @JohnPlywood

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..>/blockquote>

    WTF? No they did not.
     

     

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..>/blockquote>

    WTF? No they did not.

    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people……Which would indicate that they weren’t exactly pacifists….And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit….One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves…..

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood

    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people
     
    Bullshit, there is no evidence for that. You're going to have to come up with evidence for the many bullshit scenarios you describe. Jumping from one made-up genocide to another isn't evidence.

    And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit….One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves…..
     
    More bullshit. Greenland was already severely depopulated by the time that supposedly happened (due to climate change) and the historical veracity of this event is doubted; it possibly represents eventd that took place in Norway as noted by Jared Diamond in "Collapse", who desceibes the story as "laconic".
    , @Anonymous
    Yes, peaceful coexistence of Norse and Inuit was possible only so long as the two kept to their own separate ways of life and didn't try to compete for the same resources. The Norse were farmers and the Inuit were hunters. If the Inuit had become farmers that would have led to conflict with the Norse over farmland. If the Norse had become hunters that would have led to conflict over hunting grounds.

    A common criticism of the Greenlanders is that they died out because they refused to adopt the culture and technology of the Inuit, presumably out of racial/religious arrogance or blind stubborness.

    A likelier explanation is that 'progressive' Norse who tried to copy the Inuit were killed by them, while 'conservative' Norse who persisted with farming starved to death as the climate cooled. Both courses would have been fatal.

  141. @syonredux

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..>/blockquote>

    WTF? No they did not.
     
    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people......Which would indicate that they weren't exactly pacifists....And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit....One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves.....

    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people

    Bullshit, there is no evidence for that. You’re going to have to come up with evidence for the many bullshit scenarios you describe. Jumping from one made-up genocide to another isn’t evidence.

    And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit….One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves…..

    More bullshit. Greenland was already severely depopulated by the time that supposedly happened (due to climate change) and the historical veracity of this event is doubted; it possibly represents eventd that took place in Norway as noted by Jared Diamond in “Collapse”, who desceibes the story as “laconic”.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Bullshit, there is no evidence for that. You’re going to have to come up with evidence for the many bullshit scenarios you describe. Jumping from one made-up genocide to another isn’t evidence.
     
    Maybe the Dorset people just decided to stop breeding.....

    More bullshit. Greenland was already severely depopulated by the time that supposedly happened (due to climate change) and the historical veracity of this event is doubted; it possibly represents eventd that took place in Norway as noted by Jared Diamond in “Collapse”, who desceibes the story as “laconic”.
     
    Diamond was pushing his ecological agenda in that book.
    , @syonredux

    There’s a new paper out on the genetic prehistory of the Canadian Arctic. Basically, it says that existing Eskimos replaced a genetically different population less than 700 years ago, and that those earlier Paleo-Eskimos (Dorset culture) represent yet another separate migration from Asia (in addition to the PaleoIndians, the Na-Dene, and the Eskimo). They put this in such a nice way: “the genetic continuity characterizing the Paleo-Eskimo period was interrupted by the arrival of a new population.”
     

    Which likely means that the neo-Eskimos killed off the Dorset people. Obviously they weren’t farmers, the usual suspects in replacement, but the new guys had a more sophisticated technology ( and probably greater numbers) , with bows, large skin boats, dog sleds, whale-hunting gear, etc. The neo-Eskimos have certainly done their share of fighting in recent historical times – they went at it hammer-and-tongs with various Amerindian tribes.
     

    This is fairly obvious, so much so that even the New York Times and the Washington Post mentioned extermination by the newcomers as a possible explanation. There is no mention of that possibility in the original research article, but I’m sure that some of the authors were quite aware of it. What they said is probably influenced by the fear that saying anything negative, no matter how true, might cause the Eskimos to refuse cooperation in the future.

     

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/deguello/
  142. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Peter Frost
    I strongly doubt the hypothesis of Amerindian admixture in the Icelandic population. For one thing, the subclade in question, C1e, has not been found in any native American population. For another, no Amerindian subclade has been found in Iceland. This point is made in a 2014 study:

    Among other hypotheses including that of a European origin, an American origin was favoured on the basis that most of the hg C1 diversity is found on the American continent, despite the fact that no sequence belonging to hg C1e could be detected in the Americas (or anywhere else). This lack of match was explained by under-sampling of the American mtDNA genome diversity [10]. In any case, if admixture between Native Americans and Vikings did occur, it must have been limited, as no other American-specific lineage (e.g. hg A2, B2, D1, C1b, C1c, C1d) was detected in Iceland.
     
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3913659/

    The authors of the same study point out that a sister subclade, C1f, has been found in human remains from Mesolithic northeast Europe. Moreoever, it is not excluded that these two sister subclades, C1e and C1f, still exist in northeast Europe. The Icelandic population has been studied much more than almost any other population, so C1e might still exist somewhere in northeast Europe but hasn't been found because of its low frequency. The authors conclude:


    ... we suggest that the Icelandic-specific C1e sub-clade could have had a recent origin in northern Europe rather than an American origin. This hypothesis is relevant with regard to the origins of the Icelandic population, as Iceland was discovered and first settled by Scandinavian Vikings around 1,130 years ago. Vikings raids extended as far from their homeland in Scandinavia as France, Spain and Sicily, but their main expansion range comprised western Russia, the Baltic region, Scandinavia, and the British Isles
     

    Well said. Never discussed is how brief longevity was in the era of discovery, or encounter, and before, and how small the population.

    You were lucky to survive 15 child bearing years, find someone, conceive and have a surviving offspring. Much less get in a rickety wooden boat in the most treacherous frozen seas on earth and sail hundreds of miles.

    Laffer

  143. @Anon
    “Icelanders demand Indian Casino for reparations”

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?


    One more... why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?

    The Norsemen( no longer Vikings by this point) stayed very briefly in Newfoundland and appear to have left and not returned with minimal interference from the locals. There was some trade. The colony was too far to maintain particularly with worsening seas due to the approaching mini ice age.

    Greenland is a more complicated story.

    The Norse arrived in southern Greenland centuries before the Inuit. They never crossed paths with the Dorset far far to the north. The Inuit arrived in Northwest Greenland, slaughtered the Dorset and had often contentious relations with the Norse. But some Inuit women married Norsemen and lived in the Norse settlement. And they traded.

    Around 500 years after its founding, Climate change lead to diminished farming and eventually the end of the colony. While the actual end date and exact final fate remains a mystery, there were periodic attacks. The younger Norse also began to leave Greenland on the rarer and rarer ships that visited. It’s possible the final Norse died out of starvation, were killed or somehow left and survived in Iceland and Norway.

  144. @Hail
    Please explain.

    (Fwiw, my paternal line traces to Scandinavia and I am R1b.)

    Well, on second thought, the Norse did bring Gaelic men along with them to Iceland and Greenland, so it’s actually closer to a coin toss. Iceland has a lot of R1b (41%), but it probably isn’t Norse. R1b is common in western Europe, typical of countries like Ireland, Spain and England. In Nordic countries it’s a minority, except Denmark where it is a plurality. Nordics have more I1, and R1a is usually equal or higher than R1b in percentage (it varies by sample). And Finland is majority N with almost no R1b. R1b is rarer in Nordic countries, at least north of Denmark.

    • Replies: @Hail
    Here is Eupedia's current estimate of male y-line frequency in northern Europe, based on a compilation of studies:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERWa_cAWAAY3MJo.png

    There is plenty of R1b in Norway as well.

    The other thing is, R1b is not a monolith. Some of the major sub-branches are strongly differentiated by region.

    But this is besides the original point. If any of these big European male-lines turned up on an Amerind skeleton conclusively dated to before 1492, that would be a big, big deal.
  145. @Anon
    “Icelanders demand Indian Casino for reparations”

    Also, if the Native Americans were nature-loving peaceful hippies, who genocided the Vikings in Newfoundland?


    One more... why didn’t we see diseases from the Vikings wipe out the natives like the Spanish? Didn’t the Vikings also have smallpox?

    Nobody genocided Vikings in Greenland. There is no evidence for that.

    The alternative white crowd sure does love to claim genocide whenever possible despite a complete lack of evidence, but they bark up a tree constantly about the Holocaust.

  146. @The Wild Geese Howard
    I prefer this take on the white knight:

    http://www.reaxxion.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/WhiteKnight.gif

    An old Brit was interviewed in, I think, the 1950s about his experience with the feather girls, who in pre-conscription 1914 handed out white feathers to young men still in civilian clothes.

    One girl– these were mostly naive teenagers, remember– handed hers to a young man on a train. He smiled, and pulled up his shirt to show the scars from the wound he had just received in the war. He was now on leave.

    She was so mortified that she invited him home and sat him down for tea. Then she left the room– and returned stark naked. “Please, sir, have your way with me.”

    I remember him, or the interviewer, being coy about whether or he took advantage of the offer.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    “Please, sir, have your way with me.”
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6j4ZClZIyY
  147. @Paleo Liberal
    I think Squanto made the round trip twice.

    When he came back the second time, his entire tribe had been wiped out by disease. Which is why when the Mayflower landed the land was empty.

    After about half the Mayflower colonists died, the local tribesmen Squanto was living with decided to help the Pilgrims, at the request of Squanto. Squanto and the local Indians were impressed by the way adult Pilgrims would willingly die of starvation in order to feed the children. That is what spurred Squanto and the local tribes to help. Had they not done so, I never would have been born.

    Well…that was the movie version. I saw that silly film when it came out.

  148. @JohnPlywood
    Well, on second thought, the Norse did bring Gaelic men along with them to Iceland and Greenland, so it's actually closer to a coin toss. Iceland has a lot of R1b (41%), but it probably isn't Norse. R1b is common in western Europe, typical of countries like Ireland, Spain and England. In Nordic countries it's a minority, except Denmark where it is a plurality. Nordics have more I1, and R1a is usually equal or higher than R1b in percentage (it varies by sample). And Finland is majority N with almost no R1b. R1b is rarer in Nordic countries, at least north of Denmark.

    Here is Eupedia’s current estimate of male y-line frequency in northern Europe, based on a compilation of studies:

    There is plenty of R1b in Norway as well.

    The other thing is, R1b is not a monolith. Some of the major sub-branches are strongly differentiated by region.

    But this is besides the original point. If any of these big European male-lines turned up on an Amerind skeleton conclusively dated to before 1492, that would be a big, big deal.

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    Eupedia is just some uneducated guy's website, most actual studies give lower percentages of R1b and higher R1a in Nordic countries.

    Referenced studies in Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Europe

    Only very old two studies (Rosser and Helgasson) give Swedes more R1b than R1a, and Norwegians are about identical (24% R1b, 25% R1a).

  149. @(((Owen)))

    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today.
     
    Nope. Native American was all over the newspapers and in common uncontroversial usage among the educated classes by the mid 1980s.

    Sir, that is what we in the legal profession call horseshit.

    No offense meant.

    • Replies: @Hail
    Here is what the google-books corpus gives as what it thinks are representative examples of appearances of the term "Native American," for books it thinks were published between Jan. 1, 1983, and Dec. 31, 1986 (commenter Owen's "mid 1980s"):

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22native+american%22&lr=lang_en&source=lnt&tbs=lr%3Alang_1en%2Ccdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1983%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F1986&tbm=bks

    There are real telltale signs in that list that Native American was NOT in current use as of the mid-1980s, despite the fact that the term exists. When you see authors explaining terms they're using, or using a new term boldly and then backtracking into the familiar, those are signs the terms are not in common use.

    Consider this one, from The Native American in American Literature: A Selectively Annotated Bibliography, 1985:


    Then, too, much of the scholarship involving Native American literature (Indian authors), and to some extent the treatment of Indians in literature, has not been accomplished by students of literature but by linguists, cultural anthropologists, ...
     
    Here is another that makes it clear that the term "Native American" was not, as of the mid-'80s, reserved as an exclusive racial term for the Red Amerind peoples at all:

    Native American Anarchism: A Study of Left-wing American Individualism
    Eunice Minette Schuster
    Loompanics Unlimited, 1983 - Political Science - 202 pages

    From the far reaches of the human mind, come these tales of unrestrained, anti-authoritarianism. No government, no leaders, no authority, no rules, and complete freedom of action! Egoism, solipsism, anarchism, and other heresies -- now revealed to corrupt your mind!!!

    "Arguably the best book ever published on the history of Anarchism in the U.S". -- Left Bank Books

    "A gold mine... Anyone interested in the roots of free thought will be rewarded by reading it". -- Claustrophobia

    The history of anarchism in the United States from colonial times to the early 20th Century. Covers the abolitionists, women's rights movements; supporters of reproductive and sexual freedom; pacificist and anti-war movements; alternative communities and much more.
     

    Notice that this 1983 book, "Native American Anarchism," has nothing to do with Amerinds. Nothing! The usage of "native" there still reflected the traditional meaning of the word 'native,' in a non-racial sense. The same book, written ten years later, would never have that name, unless it were about Red-Indian Anarchist activists.

    There are plenty of more such examples; see link above.

    "Native American" as a racial term really seems to break through at the very end of the Eighties among the avante-garde set (the ones who were pushing Latinx by the late 2010s), with a mainstream breakthrough in the Nineties.

  150. @MEH 0910
    Subhadra Das Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/ellietheelement/status/1230817814119931910

    Why do the trans men have to make themselves look so…insane?

  151. @Paleo Liberal
    Many of the tribes in that area no longer have any full-blooded members at all. Disease and warfare wiped out entire tribes. Mixed race Indians were far more likely to survive both war and disease.

    Thus it is theoretically possible, albeit unlikely, that some mixed race Indians have some Viking blood which is hidden amongst the rest of their European blood. Recall that the Greenland Vikings had a very high percentage of Irish ancestry due to kidnappings of Irish women, and many of the remaining mixed race Indians intermarried with the Irish.

    One significant fact about the Plymouth colony and the Mayflower was that they brought their own women and thus could be fruitful and multiply. Constance Hopkins, 16 years old in 1620, had about 11 children and 72 grandchildren. They didn’t need to capture or buy native women.

  152. @Hail
    Here is Eupedia's current estimate of male y-line frequency in northern Europe, based on a compilation of studies:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERWa_cAWAAY3MJo.png

    There is plenty of R1b in Norway as well.

    The other thing is, R1b is not a monolith. Some of the major sub-branches are strongly differentiated by region.

    But this is besides the original point. If any of these big European male-lines turned up on an Amerind skeleton conclusively dated to before 1492, that would be a big, big deal.

    Eupedia is just some uneducated guy’s website, most actual studies give lower percentages of R1b and higher R1a in Nordic countries.

    Referenced studies in Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Europe

    Only very old two studies (Rosser and Helgasson) give Swedes more R1b than R1a, and Norwegians are about identical (24% R1b, 25% R1a).

  153. @anonymous
    Sir, that is what we in the legal profession call horseshit.

    No offense meant.

    Here is what the google-books corpus gives as what it thinks are representative examples of appearances of the term “Native American,” for books it thinks were published between Jan. 1, 1983, and Dec. 31, 1986 (commenter Owen’s “mid 1980s”):

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22native+american%22&lr=lang_en&source=lnt&tbs=lr%3Alang_1en%2Ccdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1983%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F1986&tbm=bks

    There are real telltale signs in that list that Native American was NOT in current use as of the mid-1980s, despite the fact that the term exists. When you see authors explaining terms they’re using, or using a new term boldly and then backtracking into the familiar, those are signs the terms are not in common use.

    Consider this one, from The Native American in American Literature: A Selectively Annotated Bibliography, 1985:

    Then, too, much of the scholarship involving Native American literature (Indian authors), and to some extent the treatment of Indians in literature, has not been accomplished by students of literature but by linguists, cultural anthropologists, …

    Here is another that makes it clear that the term “Native American” was not, as of the mid-’80s, reserved as an exclusive racial term for the Red Amerind peoples at all:

    Native American Anarchism: A Study of Left-wing American Individualism
    Eunice Minette Schuster
    Loompanics Unlimited, 1983 – Political Science – 202 pages

    From the far reaches of the human mind, come these tales of unrestrained, anti-authoritarianism. No government, no leaders, no authority, no rules, and complete freedom of action! Egoism, solipsism, anarchism, and other heresies — now revealed to corrupt your mind!!!

    “Arguably the best book ever published on the history of Anarchism in the U.S”. — Left Bank Books

    “A gold mine… Anyone interested in the roots of free thought will be rewarded by reading it”. — Claustrophobia

    The history of anarchism in the United States from colonial times to the early 20th Century. Covers the abolitionists, women’s rights movements; supporters of reproductive and sexual freedom; pacificist and anti-war movements; alternative communities and much more.

    Notice that this 1983 book, “Native American Anarchism,” has nothing to do with Amerinds. Nothing! The usage of “native” there still reflected the traditional meaning of the word ‘native,’ in a non-racial sense. The same book, written ten years later, would never have that name, unless it were about Red-Indian Anarchist activists.

    There are plenty of more such examples; see link above.

    “Native American” as a racial term really seems to break through at the very end of the Eighties among the avante-garde set (the ones who were pushing Latinx by the late 2010s), with a mainstream breakthrough in the Nineties.

  154. @Kratoklastes

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter
     
    ... is a very interesting development - one that probably indicates that someone let her know that her days as a public intellectual were numbered.

    My bet: having the temerity to try to finger-wag at Dawkins, turned out to be a career-ending error. His social circle is unbelievable - and the guy pretty much invented the idea of memes.

    One meme worth quoting: "You Come At The King, You Best Not Miss".

    So like everyone on the planet, I was quite surprised when Dawkins did that tweet about reading Saini's schlock. (His Twitter timeline is one of 3 that I read, and rewarding).

    After a few minutes it struck me that it may have been Gervais-level (or even Jeselnik-level) trolling - the tweet was effectively a mini-commentary on the auto da fé that would be expected of him by Bellarmines in the SJW crowd.

    What better way to 'sic' the Internet Hate Machine on her? With complete, total deniability - in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies that SJWs get when they get a superior man to prostrate themselves.

    .

    It fits with Dawkins' very high intelligence, and his puckish sense of humour.

    Give the fanbase the impression that you - a celebrated, militant (and beloved[1]) rationalist whose entire professional life has been dedicated to science - had understood the requirement to go through the usual self-abasement and genuflection. (As if the initial tweet about eugenics was an error of judgement - lol).

    "This will not stand!" was probably heard in a million parents' basements, whereupon the d0xxing of Saini would have commenced in earnest.

    .

    I might be seeing eggs and counting chickens, but this almost certainly ends her - the same way that Pinker's tear-down ended Malcolm Gladwell.

    Given that she's a typical midwit SJW self-promoter, the shallow pool of Twitter (and its massive reach) is absolutely vital for the likes of her - and it has no memory, so she can't get those followers back just by turning up.

    I have no idea if she (or anyone else) gave an excuse for her departure: a Google of "Why did Angela Saini quit Twitter" produces literally zero useful or relevant information on page 1, which is odd considering how good Google is at search.

    .

    For the moment, it goes in the 'win' column though (along with Gladwell and drug-addled psychosophaster Jordan fucking Peterson).

    Hopefully Brian Cox and Neil de Grasse Tyson are next for the block: they are as irritating as Michio Kaku and David Suzuki.

    [1] Do not think for a second that 'beloved' is over-egging the pudding, when it comes to the affection (rightly) directed at Dawkins by his fans.

    I fancy myself as a brutal judgemental cunt when it comes to 'public intellectuals', but the only fault I have ever detected in Dawkins was that he was prepared to have Christopher Hitchens - a literally-third-rate pretentious hack fuckwit - in his inner circle. (Probably for US exposure, because Yanks think Hitchens was smart because he was an Islamophobe who had no issues with neoconservatism).

    Why 'literally-third-rate'? Simple, silly - he took a Third at Balliol. Terrific college, but even in the 1970 a Third in PPE marked you out as an intellectual also-ran - it's basically an Oxford Fail.

    In S01E05 of "Yes, Prime Minister", Sir Humphrey said "A second at Oxford counts as an Upper Second, at least.", but even he would not have employed a Third (even though his fictional college - Baillie - was clearly modelled on Balliol).

    inb4 "Hitchens was busy doing cool and exciting things" - so was Boris Johnson: he was head of the Union, played rugby for Bailliol, and he barely missed out on a First (and in 'Greats', not fucking PPE). And he was a King's Scholar at Eton, and a Pop.

    Not bad for a part-Turk deafie Yank (TIL he was born in the USA: I think Springsteen might have written a song about it KEK).

    All Hitchens did was experiment with Marxism and bumming - if he was genuinely half-bright he would have got a First (especially in PPE).

    …in fact, giving Saini a little warm patch in her undies…

    Apparently I’m not the only one who thinks Dear Old Ange is seriously misdirecting her life energy….

  155. @YetAnotherAnon
    "Pocahontas has been genotyped less than two years ago"

    Wasn't she buried in England, where Native American law doesn't yet apply?

    He means Senator Wokahontad.

  156. @J.Ross
    Evil, yes. Insane, no. Leftist jailbreaks involving guns have historically not only worked but are remembered proudly by respectable leftist academics. DuckDuckGo did not return a non-hagiographic response on the first page (and yes SwissCows is better):
    https://www.democracynow.org/2018/12/24/angela_davis_on_running_from_the
    It is delicious to hear Bloomberg not only self-destroy his best chance at winning but also in the most recent debate to be dogpiled and ravaged like an exiled Skeksis for being the sane man in the room. The sound clip where he says the word "communism" and the whole room is shocked is audio gold.

    …to be dogpiled and ravaged like an exiled Skeksis for being the sane man in the room.

    Heh.

    Weird that he is running as a sane outsider; but begins his campaign with an apology tour and promises to be like every other good thinking Democrat.

  157. @(((Owen)))

    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today.
     
    Nope. Native American was all over the newspapers and in common uncontroversial usage among the educated classes by the mid 1980s.

    As of 1990, “Native American” must still have sounded to many like “Latinx” sounds to us today.

    Nope. Native American was all over the newspapers and in common uncontroversial usage among the educated classes by the mid 1980s.

    I’ve seen “native American” in plenty of histories and genealogies from the 1850s to the 1920s. It referred to people like us.

    They also talked of “our immigrant(s) ancestor(s)” in the the Winthrop fleet, or wherever. No, they were not immigrants in the legal sense, but the physical.

    Orestes Brownson wrote a book called “Saint Worship”, which sounds blasphemous now, but wasn’t then because the word was used more loosely. (“His Worship, the Mayor.”) Same with Lazarus being fed “meat” in the King James Version, which is isn’t in any other translation.

  158. @Reg Cæsar
    An old Brit was interviewed in, I think, the 1950s about his experience with the feather girls, who in pre-conscription 1914 handed out white feathers to young men still in civilian clothes.

    One girl-- these were mostly naive teenagers, remember-- handed hers to a young man on a train. He smiled, and pulled up his shirt to show the scars from the wound he had just received in the war. He was now on leave.

    She was so mortified that she invited him home and sat him down for tea. Then she left the room-- and returned stark naked. "Please, sir, have your way with me."

    I remember him, or the interviewer, being coy about whether or he took advantage of the offer.

    “Please, sir, have your way with me.”

  159. @Mike zwick
    There were more than likely Pre-Columbian trans Pacific crossings as there were chicken bones found in Chile that genetically are related to Polynesian chickens.

    I remember hearing about what remarkable navigational skills Polynesian chickens had .

  160. @JohnPlywood

    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people
     
    Bullshit, there is no evidence for that. You're going to have to come up with evidence for the many bullshit scenarios you describe. Jumping from one made-up genocide to another isn't evidence.

    And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit….One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves…..
     
    More bullshit. Greenland was already severely depopulated by the time that supposedly happened (due to climate change) and the historical veracity of this event is doubted; it possibly represents eventd that took place in Norway as noted by Jared Diamond in "Collapse", who desceibes the story as "laconic".

    Bullshit, there is no evidence for that. You’re going to have to come up with evidence for the many bullshit scenarios you describe. Jumping from one made-up genocide to another isn’t evidence.

    Maybe the Dorset people just decided to stop breeding…..

    More bullshit. Greenland was already severely depopulated by the time that supposedly happened (due to climate change) and the historical veracity of this event is doubted; it possibly represents eventd that took place in Norway as noted by Jared Diamond in “Collapse”, who desceibes the story as “laconic”.

    Diamond was pushing his ecological agenda in that book.

  161. @Peter Akuleyev
    THERE IS VERY LITTLE EXCELLENCE HAPPENING anywhere in Latin America.

    Even as recently as 50 years ago this was not the case at all. Latin America had a much higher global profile than it does today, particularly in popular culture. Argentina was the country of the tango, top athletes, gauchos, Borges, Evita Peron and fabulous steaks. It was actually a fairly glamorous place.

    In the 1960s and into the 1970s Latin America was arguably producing the finest writers in the world: Borges, Cortazar, Vargas Llosa, Garcia Marquez, Octavio Paz, and so on.

    Back in 1972 any Presidential candidate could have named Luis Echeverria without thinking about it. Mexico had recently hosted the Olympics, was the country of Zorro, fabulous beach resorts and the place where Americans in legal trouble knew they could run to. Mexico was also just coming off two decades of 7% economic growth - "the Mexican Miracle" - and every American businessman saw it as a market of the future.

    Question is what the hell happened? In Mexico or Peru you could argue the indigenous population eventually outnumbered the conquistador class and dragged the whole society down, but that doesn't explain why Argentina has also fallen off the map. There are other factors - the rise of Asia and the opening of the economies in the Soviet bloc combined to make Latin American less relevant by comparison; the hierarchical stratified societies of large land holders in predominantly agricultural countries like Argentina or Mexico were once considered charmingly aristocratic and worthy of emulation, but are increasingly obsolete in a world of digital technology and mechanized farming; and of course drug trafficking and the associated violence has scarred the whole continent.

    Good points. It’s also interesting that Latin America has somehow remained mostly immune from the Muslim plague, while every other corner of the world has succumbed. Why is that?

    • Replies: @nymom
    Maybe because Latin America is just one step away from being a third world continent itself. I don't see anyone migrating from half a world away to wind up in any country in Latin America with the exception of maybe Argentina (maybe).

    They might as well stay where they are if they are going to wind up there...
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Pretty sure South America doesn't have the lavish, exploitable gibs systems on offer in North America and Europe.

    Once outside of Buenos Aires, there is still a noticeable current of Catholic faith in Argentina.

    Rural Argentina also has stray dogs everywhere. The Ummah are not big fans of canines.
  162. Anonymous[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Did they? I was under the impression that the Vikings just left. On the other hand, the Eskimos did wipe out the Norse in Greenland…..>/blockquote>

    WTF? No they did not.
     
    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people......Which would indicate that they weren't exactly pacifists....And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit....One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves.....

    Yes, peaceful coexistence of Norse and Inuit was possible only so long as the two kept to their own separate ways of life and didn’t try to compete for the same resources. The Norse were farmers and the Inuit were hunters. If the Inuit had become farmers that would have led to conflict with the Norse over farmland. If the Norse had become hunters that would have led to conflict over hunting grounds.

    A common criticism of the Greenlanders is that they died out because they refused to adopt the culture and technology of the Inuit, presumably out of racial/religious arrogance or blind stubborness.

    A likelier explanation is that ‘progressive’ Norse who tried to copy the Inuit were killed by them, while ‘conservative’ Norse who persisted with farming starved to death as the climate cooled. Both courses would have been fatal.

  163. @MEH 0910
    Subhadra Das Retweeted:
    https://twitter.com/ellietheelement/status/1230817814119931910

    Galton’s legacy is in good hands! Thank God!

  164. @Daniel Williams
    Björk has an oddball look for a Scandinavian. Maybe she’s more Indian than Liz Warren?

    Bjork has Sammi blood, you know those reindeer herding guys from the Scandinavian North.

    You can google them.

  165. @Muggles
    Interesting. It would be more newsworthy (if proven) if the Vikings/Icelanders didn't bring back an American Indian woman they encountered in their stay in N. America.

    In general Vikings raided and took slaves. Females were highly desired for obvious reasons. This slave raiding mostly happened before the circa 1000 AD Christianizing of the Vikings. However this was because Christians (like Muslims or Jews) weren't supposed to enslave their fellow co-coreligionists. Native American Indians wouldn't qualify.

    But slavery probably wasn't the process, if an Indian female was taken to Iceland. Pocahontas wasn't enslaved. The DNA source woman could have married a Viking and simply returned with him. We'll never know.

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn't have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn't survive long enough to pass along DNA.

    But modern style humans will boink nearly everything. Neanderthals, Denisovans, anything or anyone who runs too slow. So modern DNA tells us. And for most of mankind's history, taking female slaves from enemies was a major form of booty. So "booty" was booty.

    Hey, maybe Elizabeth Warren is partly Icelandic? So, not necessarily a liar?

    I think women usually chose the Alpha males to mate with…so assuming a Viking managed to make it to survive in an Indian tribe he would have been a solitary example, probably not an Alpha…maybe even himself a slave.

    Generally speaking woman won’t mate with a slave unless they are enslaved themselves.

    Even here in the US I believe it was rare for a free woman to mate with a slave. Of course for a woman to mate with a slave owner held the possibility of a step up in her status. Thus, I think if we had a way of tracing it genetically in the US, we would probably find that most bi-raciality (if there is such a word) descended through the male line of white men with black women…

    Although I know today the opposite is often true; but that’s another story…

    • Replies: @Foreign Expert
    I saw a genealogical report that a large number of free black families were descended from slave men and Irish servant girls ( who of course not marry into the owner’s family). Since the children of a free woman were free it sounds plausible that the owner would free the slave to create an intact family as Christians would desire.
    Henry Gates has Irish mitochondrial dna.
    , @Anonymous
    Then as now aggressive negro bucks had a tendency to be a little bit rapey. Contra the politically late Todd Legitimate Rape Akin, pregnancies did ensue.
  166. @EdwardM
    Good points. It's also interesting that Latin America has somehow remained mostly immune from the Muslim plague, while every other corner of the world has succumbed. Why is that?

    Maybe because Latin America is just one step away from being a third world continent itself. I don’t see anyone migrating from half a world away to wind up in any country in Latin America with the exception of maybe Argentina (maybe).

    They might as well stay where they are if they are going to wind up there…

  167. @bomag

    As far as I understand, there is a ban in effect on testing Amerindian skeletons.
     
    To let Tribes reclaim and bury various museum relics, Congress passed the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act of 1990.

    However, the act has been used by Tribes to claim any and all ancient skeletons found since then, thus shielding them from testing; lest the testing uncover any uncomfortable challenges to the Narrative.

    So I suppose, with Tribal approval, one could test; or find a skeleton no one claims.

    What a ridiculous piece of legislation! It’s as if any modern European ethnic group could claim any skeleton dug up in any part of Europe as their ancestors.
    I don’t even think anybody has any rights to ancient skeletal remains. Keep that right in the direct family, and no longer than 4 generations.

  168. @EdwardM
    Good points. It's also interesting that Latin America has somehow remained mostly immune from the Muslim plague, while every other corner of the world has succumbed. Why is that?

    Pretty sure South America doesn’t have the lavish, exploitable gibs systems on offer in North America and Europe.

    Once outside of Buenos Aires, there is still a noticeable current of Catholic faith in Argentina.

    Rural Argentina also has stray dogs everywhere. The Ummah are not big fans of canines.

  169. @JohnPlywood

    Well, the Thule Inuit did wipe out the Dorset people
     
    Bullshit, there is no evidence for that. You're going to have to come up with evidence for the many bullshit scenarios you describe. Jumping from one made-up genocide to another isn't evidence.

    And we know that the Norse were attacked by the Inuit….One raid in 1379 resulted in 18 Norse deaths, plus two Norse taken as slaves…..
     
    More bullshit. Greenland was already severely depopulated by the time that supposedly happened (due to climate change) and the historical veracity of this event is doubted; it possibly represents eventd that took place in Norway as noted by Jared Diamond in "Collapse", who desceibes the story as "laconic".

    There’s a new paper out on the genetic prehistory of the Canadian Arctic. Basically, it says that existing Eskimos replaced a genetically different population less than 700 years ago, and that those earlier Paleo-Eskimos (Dorset culture) represent yet another separate migration from Asia (in addition to the PaleoIndians, the Na-Dene, and the Eskimo). They put this in such a nice way: “the genetic continuity characterizing the Paleo-Eskimo period was interrupted by the arrival of a new population.”

    Which likely means that the neo-Eskimos killed off the Dorset people. Obviously they weren’t farmers, the usual suspects in replacement, but the new guys had a more sophisticated technology ( and probably greater numbers) , with bows, large skin boats, dog sleds, whale-hunting gear, etc. The neo-Eskimos have certainly done their share of fighting in recent historical times – they went at it hammer-and-tongs with various Amerindian tribes.

    This is fairly obvious, so much so that even the New York Times and the Washington Post mentioned extermination by the newcomers as a possible explanation. There is no mention of that possibility in the original research article, but I’m sure that some of the authors were quite aware of it. What they said is probably influenced by the fear that saying anything negative, no matter how true, might cause the Eskimos to refuse cooperation in the future.

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/deguello/

  170. @TelfoedJohn
    Looks more East Asian or Eskimo. A lot of Scandos and Finns from the far north have narrow almond eyes. The sun is always on the horizon, so it helps if your eyes are permanently squinting.

    Almost surely these folks are Sami or have Sami admixture. The Sami , especially the ones in old photos, do have that Inuit / Eskimo look. Not surprising since the Sami are supposed to have originated east of the Urals many thousands of years ago.

  171. @JohnPlywood

    What seems strange is the total absence of European DNA in modern Indian DNA in the regions of NE New England, coastal eastern Canada. We have assumed some Vikings decided to stay or were kidnapped, captured while exploring, etc. Of course that might not have happened. Or the Viking men didn’t have the chance to breed. Or if they did, their descendants didn’t survive long enough to pass along DNA.
     
    Are you high? Almost all East coast Amerindian males have European paternal haplogroups.

    >>Are you high? Almost all East coast Amerindian males have European paternal haplogroups.<<

    One doesn't have to be "high" to be imprecise. While I'm not a DNA expert of Amerindian populations in N. America as you seem to be, I should have been more specific.

    I was referring to the specific Icelandic/Viking DNA from those early N. American visitors, and should have said that. Yes I would think by now, anyway, many Indians have some partial non Indian DNA, much of that European.

    I was thinking of some articles I have read about the subject of "lost" European explorers (Vikings usually) who were suspected of being permanently stuck here pre Columbus and pre Spanish exploration. There have been a few very old non Indian remains found, or so it was thought. From what I recall none of these provided any conclusive DNA as to non Indian origin even when found thousands of miles from NE USA or Canada. Nor have I read of any pre 1500 skeletons in N. America which have been found to have European DNA. This doesn't mean there weren't any, given the low odds of finding testable remains.

    As the article notes, Iceland has a particularly complete population DNA profile in hand, so if any Vikings were procreating in N. America from Iceland that would be more detectable. Male captives would not likely have the chance to mate with natives (as others have noted).

  172. @anon
    I have come to respect Vikings recently by watching all the YouTube videos of solo sailers who cross the North Atlantic.

    It's possible back around the Medieval Climactic Optimum that the North Atlantic was easier to navigate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

    Angela Saini deleting her Twitter:

    There's always at least one of these somewhere around.
    Always.

    https://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/452/279/b4f.jpg

  173. @nymom
    I think women usually chose the Alpha males to mate with...so assuming a Viking managed to make it to survive in an Indian tribe he would have been a solitary example, probably not an Alpha...maybe even himself a slave.

    Generally speaking woman won't mate with a slave unless they are enslaved themselves.

    Even here in the US I believe it was rare for a free woman to mate with a slave. Of course for a woman to mate with a slave owner held the possibility of a step up in her status. Thus, I think if we had a way of tracing it genetically in the US, we would probably find that most bi-raciality (if there is such a word) descended through the male line of white men with black women...

    Although I know today the opposite is often true; but that's another story...

    I saw a genealogical report that a large number of free black families were descended from slave men and Irish servant girls ( who of course not marry into the owner’s family). Since the children of a free woman were free it sounds plausible that the owner would free the slave to create an intact family as Christians would desire.
    Henry Gates has Irish mitochondrial dna.

  174. Ligaya Fabian of 1631 El Camino Real #8 Tustin Ca 92780 submitted fake documents and bribed an employee to get a driver’s license but DMV revoked. She did not disclose the fraud she committed when she applied for a green card and now applying for benefits and citizenship

  175. @nymom
    I think women usually chose the Alpha males to mate with...so assuming a Viking managed to make it to survive in an Indian tribe he would have been a solitary example, probably not an Alpha...maybe even himself a slave.

    Generally speaking woman won't mate with a slave unless they are enslaved themselves.

    Even here in the US I believe it was rare for a free woman to mate with a slave. Of course for a woman to mate with a slave owner held the possibility of a step up in her status. Thus, I think if we had a way of tracing it genetically in the US, we would probably find that most bi-raciality (if there is such a word) descended through the male line of white men with black women...

    Although I know today the opposite is often true; but that's another story...

    Then as now aggressive negro bucks had a tendency to be a little bit rapey. Contra the politically late Todd Legitimate Rape Akin, pregnancies did ensue.

  176. Anonymous[256] • Disclaimer says:

    Near the top of thread someone insinuates that north america + Europe haven’t achieved excellence lately! How about:

    Too many health/medicine breakthroughs to list
    Too many computer tech breakthroughs to list
    Too many robot tech breakthroughs to list
    Too many transportation breakthroughs to list
    So many horticulture improvements
    So many agriculture improvements

    Here are some paradigm shifts that have occurred since say 1970…

    Satellite/space tech
    Personal computer
    Internet
    Cellphone/Smartphone
    Energy tech: Fracking, Natural gas, Solar power, Wind power

    Whitey’s latest civilization may be late stage but we are still making epic discoveries. We are still excelling. Excellence abounds all over the western world.

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