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From the Washington Post “Perspective” section:

Anti-Blackness and transphobia are older than we thought

In the Byzantine Empire, ideas of race and gender were deeply intertwined.

By Roland Betancourt
Roland Betancourt is a professor and Chancellor’s Fellow at the University of California, Irvine and author of “Byzantine Intersectionality: Sexuality, Gender, and Race in the Middle Ages ” (Princeton University Press, 2020).

June 16, 2021 at 3:00 a.m. PDT

When did racism begin?

I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces (what Americans tend to think of as “race,” forgetting the family tree aspects). Clans probably dressed different and had different hairstyles and the like, so visual recognition was still easy. People did come into contact with migrating tribes that didn’t look like them 10,000 years ago, but it often wasn’t part of daily life.

Then the domestication of the horse maybe 5000 plus years ago and the development of reliable near-land sailing (when was that?) made contact between distant peoples in the same general region of the world more common. But it was more like: the Scythians are fairer than us Greeks and the Egyptians are darker, so we’re the golden mean, which means we’re best, and I’ve heard that the Ethiopians are really burnt by the sun.

Finally, the development of ocean-crossing sailing ships in the 1400s led to the modern scientific awareness of major continental-scale races: sail west for 3000 miles and you suddenly arrive in a New World with a completely different race than one we Europeans have ever seen before.

Because of how ideas about race shape our contemporary world, some have argued that racism did not exist in the ancient and medieval worlds, that it was a modern invention. Proposing that there was a past before racism helped prop up the notion that Americans were living in a post-racial present, in the decades after the Civil Rights movement.

But nothing could be further from the truth.

More than just race thinking and varied forms of racialized prejudices, the ancient and medieval world provide us with a deep legacy of anti-Blackness. This history of anti-Blackness has not only defined modern racism as we know it, but also shaped how gender and sexuality have been explained and represented for centuries. Remembering this longer history of racism and transphobia should remind us of how deeply ingrained these ideas are — and how much effort it will take to root them out.

Recognizing anti-Blackness in the deep past, particularly the Christian Middle Ages, allows us to better understand how colorist prejudices were racialized and transmitted from Ancient Greece and Rome to the modern Western world. Throughout this period, Christianity attempted to position itself as a new “race” (genos) or group of people that transcended ethnic categories and civilizations by proselytizing across the known world from India to Ethiopia.

Ethiopia has been part of Christendom since the 300s, although it was largely cut off from the rest by the rise of Islam.

But Christianity still retained the deep anti-Blackness rooted in ancient theories of racialized and gendered differences.

… Because of its lineage dating to antiquity, the Byzantine Empire provides a unique lens on how racial tropes persisted across millennia and how they were transmitted and reconceived under Christian rule.

This poor guy is thrashing about trying to stay relevant.

European visitors to Constantinople often remarked on the city’s racial diversity and commented on the darker skin of its emperors and peoples.

Not hugely darker, in general, at least until the Central Asian Ottoman emperors arrived in 1453. People in Istanbul today look not too different from people in Athens.

Surprisingly, Byzantine sources were often silent on this racialized difference, potentially taking it for granted in their cosmopolitan empire.

Yet while Byzantines were not White in the eyes of their European neighbors, they also privileged Whiteness in their descriptions of feminine beauty

Slavic slave women were much in demand in the old time Middle East, just as Oil Arabs today like blonde prostitutes.

It’s almost as if, as Peter Frost argues, the fair sex really is a little fairer than the unfair sex and thus fairness is seen as a desirable secondary sex characteristic of women, like long hair. When poets referred to the “fair sex” they weren’t calling women fair or just. (Few poets had a high opinion of the fairness of women.)

Some of it was meant worked outdoors more and thus tanned more. But there also appears to be small average difference, perhaps approaching 10% in color of skin under the upper arm, with women fairer.

In our racially diverse modern world, the small difference in coloration between men and women (women are softer with more sub-dermal fat, which keeps the blood further from the surface of the skin, while men tend to be ruddier), is dwarfed by racial differences, but fairness appears to remain a desired feminine trait all over the world, especially outside of European countries.

Another possibility is that the further north you go, the less portion of the year women gatherers can bring home the bacon so the more necessary are husband hunters to bag big game. And plowing in heavy northern soils requires a strong man, while lighter southern soils can be weeded by women with hoes. So, in the north there is more selection for beauty among women, while in the south (especially in sub-Saharan Africa hoe agricultural system), there is more selection for work among women.

I’d completely believe my theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.

and often contoured their own identity through a prism of anti-Blackness.

In reality, my impression is that people that the Washington Post would refer to as “Black” — sub-Saharans — did not take up a large space in the brains of Byzantines. I’m sure there were some blacks in Constantinople when it was most thriving, but they may have spent more time thinking about northern Slavic beauties.

… In 1174, Eustathios of Thessaloniki celebrated the diversity of the emperor’s entourage by listing all the various envoys from foreign lands present, including, “the Indian too, slightly tinged with black, and the Ethiopian with his whole skin burnt dark.” At the same time, the popular epic romance, “Digenes Akritas,” dating to the same period, described its hero’s Arab father as knowing the Romans’ (i.e. Byzantines’) language perfectly, having curly hair and saying that his complexion was “not black like the Ethiopians but fair and handsome.”

By the way, one of the leading companions of Mohammed was a blonde man named Suhayb the Roman.

While outsiders could be scorned for their dark complexion, dark skin wasn’t considered bad in all cases for the subjects of the Byzantine Empire. In fact, it was associated with the admirable strength of ancient heroes, like Odysseus, who Homer described as “black skinned” (melanochroous) in the “Odyssey.”

Odysseus would have gotten pretty tanned while sailing around for ten years.

But whether dark skin was seen as virtue or ugliness depended on one’s gender and sexuality.

A dark complexion was prized as a sign of masculinity: Manly men were said to have dark skin. But dark skin was considered unfeminine, and therefore dark-skinned women were viewed negatively

As opposed to today, when you never ever see black women writing op-eds in the Washington Post complaining that society values white women’s beauty too high.

— as were light-skinned men. Since white skin was associated with feminine beauty, when translated onto the male body it became a sign of queerness and “effeminacy.”

One Byzantine emperor, Manuel I Komnenos, was praised at length for his dark complexion. But his eulogy revealed the gendered view on dark skin in this period. Komnenos’s dark skin matched his dignity since it did not display “an effeminate paleness … having aspired to an appearance that one does not find on womanly or soft people.”

In other words, this emperor was always out and about doing emperor-stuff outdoors like training his army and thus was tanned, unlike some decadent emperors we could mention who spent all their time lounging indoors.

In general, Woke intellectuals seem to have more or less forgotten the process of tanning in their obsession with race (which does not exist).

In Greek, terms like “womanly” (gynaikias) and “soft” (malthakous) were slurs for effeminate men and for men who slept with men respectively. Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.

… Like the emperor’s eulogizers, Choniates is clear to highlight Komnenos as someone who spent his time in the sun doing manly things. Yet he also walked a careful racial tightrope: wanting to praise the emperor’s dark skin — and therefore his masculinity — while also making sure not to associate him with “those exposed to the burning rays of the sun.” In other words, making sure to not associate the color of his skin with a distinctly racialized group, such as Black Africans, what Greek texts would have vaguely referred to as “Ethiopians” (literally meaning, “burnt-faced”).

I’m not clear on what the Greeks thought the reason was that Ethiopians were so dark. Sometimes they seem to sound as if they assume Ethiopians are just tanned, or that they got so suntanned during their life that the tan became permanent. Or maybe they had a proto-Lamarckian view: their ancestors passed their tans down.

It took humanity a ridiculous amount of time to come up with the theory of natural selection, which is only 163 years old today, which helps explain why thinking in terms of natural selection is still so alien to many in 2021.

This reference to the burning rays of the sun is crucial, because since antiquity it was believed that not only did the sun’s rays darken the skin, but the climate also altered people’s character. For example, those reared in the extreme cold and shade were understood as having been burned white by the cold, and Hippocrates even said that the men in these places became eunuchs and behaved like women.

Or they just had Russian babes on the brain all the time.

Thus, the understanding that dark skin was associated with masculinity and virility emerged from this broader dialogue involving both racialized and gendered identities.

… These associations between race thinking and gender were so central that in depictions of the Ethiopian Eunuch

The Ethiopian Eunuch was the treasurer to the Queen of Ethiopia. He visited Jerusalem and was converted to Christianity in the Acts of the Apostles. Christians were proud of making such an exotic and august convert. (Here’s an immature Rembrandt’s painting.)

(a figure assigned male at birth who was castrated in childhood)

You know, eunuchs weren’t just randomly “assigned male at birth” or they would have to castrate them.

from the Acts of the Apostles in the Bible, the figure of the eunuch was rarely depicted as a Black person — even though “Ethiopian” was defined in contemporaneous dictionaries as literally meaning “a black person.” Instead, the Ethiopian eunuch was depicted as a White youth because it was pale whiteness that was associated with the appearance of eunuchs.

Eunuchs played an important role in the Byzantine Empire, understood not quite as men,

The Byzantines were into nonbinary thinking!

and often attacked with misogynistic language and stereotypes.

Those Byzantines were pretty Woke even by 2021 standards: castrating children is about as Woke as you can get.

Therefore, it was their disputed gender identity that came to determine the depiction of eunuchs’ skin by artists, deploying the same palettes used for the depiction of courtly women with pale, white skin and rosy cheeks.

It is in these rich and nuanced crossings of gender, sexuality and race that the Middle Ages can productively shatter many of our preconceptions — and also make us aware of the deep and interlaced histories of racism and transphobia.

So, the Byzantines castrating children was A-OK, but their stereotyping eunuchs was transphobic.

Got it! Stereotyping bad, castrating good.

… The Middle Ages offer crucial lessons to us today as we continue the struggle for trans rights, work against anti-Black police brutality and articulate the importance of teaching our history of racism in classrooms.

Please don’t defund Byzantine Studies in favor of Emmett Till studies! We Byzantine scholars are still relevant.

Here’s my 2005 book review of Frost.

 
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  1. When will the idiot intelligentsia mention racial policies of the Empire that replaced the Byzantine Empire, the Turkish Seljuk then the Ottoman Empires.

    The Turks, like the Romans were a slave society. By Turkish Times, the trade of Africans to the Muslim parts of the Mediterranean was heavy. The Arabs, like the Turks used African slave women for sex. And allowed the babies to live.

    The Turks only imported a few castrated African slave boys. But imported vast numbers of African slave women. But there no children of African slave women. Because the babies were either aborted or killed at birth.

    Arab Asian Indian Persian and European visitors all remarked at the many black African slave women out and about doing errands, working and very visible. But none of the mulattos quadroons octoroons seen in every other country that imported black slaves.

    When is some great idiot intellectual historian going to write a new book about how millions of African slave women never produced children in Turkey.

    The answer is never. The Censor General has probably used the covid hoax lock down to prowl through the university libraries to seek out and destroy every boom about the Turkish Empire that mentions slavery.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Alden

    When is some great idiot intellectual historian going to write a new book about how millions of African slave women never produced children in Turkey.

    The answer is never. The Censor General has probably used the covid hoax lock down to prowl through the university libraries to seek out and destroy every book about the Turkish Empire that mentions slavery.

    Beat me to it.

    They won't talk about Arab, Asian or African slavery.

    Even today the North Africans still practice slavery. They buy and sell African immigrants as indentured servants.

    But our MSM is obsessed with talking about White or Christian slavery of the past. Hmmm.

  2. In good news, the recent “woke” British TV historical drama that made Anne Boleyn an extremely dark-skinned Negress (who was also a little bisexual, natch) tanked completely with viewers. Looks like rewriting history will take more work by our Marxist overlords!

    https://www.mediamole.co.uk/entertainment/tv-ratings/news/anne-boleyn-drama-a-ratings-flop-for-channel-5_450223.html

  3. The person who wrote this is mentally ill.

  4. I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces.

    Huh? My kids look like me. Even compared to people of my same nationality. If yours don’t bear a similar resemblance to you, then a less polite person than I might say something unkind about your wife. Perceptions are relative. I’d bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    In Greek, terms like “womanly” (gynaikias) and “soft” (malthakous) were slurs for effeminate men and for men who slept with men respectively. Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.

    Particularly? More like only. “Men who slept with men” in our sense of that phrase was not a category. “Men who got nailed” was a category. Our view of gays as basically normal men who happen to be attracted to other men is a bizarre, new, completely delusional way of thinking about things. It’s interesting that he mentions this, though—this other way of thinking about gays that absolutely everyone else who thinks about them uses. It’s almost a secret. Not the kind of knowledge that we can trust the plebs with.

    • Replies: @Matt Buckalew
    @Bill

    When Steve gets away from dunking on high swagger high T bruthas he starts saying really silly shit like this. I just give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s a adopted kid cope.

    , @Dissident
    @Bill



    [From the Washington Post piece that is the basis for Mr. Sailer's post] Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.
     
    Particularly? More like only. “Men who slept with men” in our sense of that phrase was not a category. “Men who got nailed” was a category.
     
    But who were such men "getting nailed" by? Other men, right? Were they ever considered "basically normal men who happen to be attracted to [and bugger] other men"? Can any man whose erotic interest is even predominately in other males (whether men or boys), let alone exclusively, properly be considered normal?

    @Steve Sailer:


    You know, eunuchs weren’t just randomly “assigned male at birth” or they would have to castrate them.
     
    Didn't you mean to write, "or they would not have to castrate them"?

    Replies: @Bill

    , @Rohirrimborn
    @Bill

    I’d bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    I grew up in New York City and have Presbyterian cousins in Ulster. I visited my cousins back in 1974. It was apparent to me that they could easily distinguish between Catholics and Protestants on sight. I never asked how they could do this but it was not something I was not capable of doing.

    Replies: @JMcG

  5. I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces.

    Huh? My kids look like me. Even compared to people of my same nationality. If yours don’t bear a similar resemblance to you, then a less polite person than I might say something unkind about your wife. Perceptions are relative. I’d bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    In Greek, terms like “womanly” (gynaikias) and “soft” (malthakous) were slurs for effeminate men and for men who slept with men respectively. Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.

    Particularly? More like only. “Men who slept with men” in our sense of that phrase was not a category. “Men who got nailed” was a category. Our view of gays as basically normal men who happen to be attracted to other men is a bizarre, new, completely delusional way of thinking about things. It’s interesting that he mentions this, though—this other way of thinking about gays that everyone else who thinks about them uses. It’s almost a secret. Not the kind of knowledge that we can trust the plebs with.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Bill

    Much like biological race, homosexuality as an all-encompassing psychosocial identity is a relatively modern thing. I personally consider someone who bases the cornerstone of their identity on who they like to sleep with pathetic: but then, same with race for me, so...

    In the ancient world, for men at least (ancient writers were a pretty sexist bunch-I don't think they genuinely cared enough about women to comment on lesbianism too much), it was largely up to personal preference, provided that you obeyed social norms. The reason Hadrian's sexual life was scandalous was not because he'd be a confirmed homosexual by today's standards, but because he visibly abandoned women altogether. It didn't matter if you preferred other men, you were expected to get married to a woman and pop out heirs: marriage in that time and place was about family formation and alliances, not love. But once you did that, your life was your business.

    In the Christian world, things took a different turn. Even without Christianity, the Germanic cultures that hijacked the Western empire tended to have negative views of homosexuality, which heavily influenced Western European cultural norms on homosexuality when coupled with the "Old Testament" leaning flavor of Dark Ages European Christianity.

    But in Byzantium, where Hellenistic culture remained dominant, things were more complex. Imperial laws meant to show what good Christians the emperors were would come out all the time with horrific punishments for homosexuals. This was particularly intense at the times where the Byzantines felt they needed to regain God's favor: Leo III's heavily Leviticus influenced Ecloga being a good example. But day-to-day life was a bit more nuanced, at least during the Macedonian era. Just look at the punishments monasteries had for homosexual acts (they were less than heterosexual ones) or why it was frowned upon for teenage boys to be left alone with older men too much (temptation was expected). My takeaway is that homosexual acts were looked at as a sin, but not worse than heterosexual acts outside of marriage. It wasn't about the impulses you felt, it was whether you could control them or not.

    (Interesting footnote: Dante Aligheri placed sodomites in the 7th circle of hell-way below lust. But in purgatory, the last circle with flames to purge lust has crowds of people running in opposite directions. One group are penitents that committed lustful acts with members of the opposite sex, the others with the same. This is an interesting insight into the conflicted feelings Florence had on homosexuality: a city so notorious for it that "Florenzer" was medieval/Renaissance German slang for "gay".)

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  6. I’d completely believe this theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.

    This has to be one of the most iSteve-characteristic lines ever.

    I’m not clear on what the Greeks thought the reason was that Ethiopians were so dark. Sometimes they seem to sound as if they assume Ethiopians were just so suntanned during their life that it was permanent.

    Isn’t this view the human default?

    Even in STEM-crazed Hong Kong, it’s widely believed, even among the well-educated, that tall people (such as yours truly) got that way because they played basketball a lot and did plenty of jumping, which somehow stretches the body into a permanently-elongated form. I’ve heard this ‘explanation’ over and over in my years here.

    • Replies: @Ben tillman
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism: Giraffes have long necks because they stretched for leaves up high.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @kaganovitch

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Hah, Calvinist, I have heard both of these ones! A Chinese lady keeps telling me that basketball theory, and I tried to explain the confusion between cause and effect. "No, you see, they are good at basketball because they are tall, so they play more. Duh!" "Show me the money mechanism!"

    Now, on the tanning thing, at least there may be something to that view. I know Chinese people HATE HATE HATE to be in the sun - they are not big beach people. They believe that once you go tan you don't come back, as if it is cumulative, at least to some degree (maybe it ratchets up each beach season). Often old wives tales beat out high IQ.

    Do the Chinese ladies still go around with umbrellas in the summer sun, OK, all year in Hong Kong, Calvinist? That was always pretty charming.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    , @Spect3r
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    "Even in STEM-crazed Hong Kong, it’s widely believed, even among the well-educated, that tall people (such as yours truly) got that way because they played basketball a lot and did plenty of jumping, which somehow stretches the body into a permanently-elongated form. I’ve heard this ‘explanation’ over and over in my years here."

    Im not saying you are lying, but i will need a source on this, please?

  7. Next year in Constantinople.

  8. and then steve came for all comments against his narrative.

    what a hypocritical cunt.

    • Replies: @22pp22
    @jorge videla

    You have a foul mouth. Let's see how you like it. I suspect you were conceived down at docks when your mentally retarded mother sold herself to the entire crew of a tramp steamer. HBD at work.

    , @ic1000
    @jorge videla

    >and then steve came for all comments against his narrative. what a hypocritical cunt.

    Here is a list of the comments that you have left at unz.com. Which do you see as making particular contributions to the discussions of points raised by their respective original posts?

    For better and worse, Sailer's standards for comments aren't particularly high, or consistent. One puzzle is that he doesn't seem particularly fond of boorish Jew-baiting.

    There is a hint in there, if you want to try raising your game.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  9. Jeff Bezos…owner of the Washington Post….funds all this Wokeness-Black Lives Matter shit….Bezos probably jerks off to the mass murder of Native White Working Class Americans……Never Forget…Never Forget…

    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @SZ
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Jeff Bezos does not own or control the WP, he merely paid for and funded it. Just like Ted Turner wasn't owning or controlling Time-Warner but was tricked into paying for it. Similarly German Bayer does not own or control American Monsanto, but they just paid for it. These payments are to be seen as tributes.
    Jeff Bezos, after achieving some weight, had to pay a tribute, in his case this was financing the propaganda outlet called the WP. He does not own or control the WP, just as he didn't control his ex-wife but only paid for and financed her.

  10. . . . Odysseus, who Homer described as “black skinned” . . . .

    A “Chancellor’s Fellow” at UC-Irvine doesn’t know that pronouns have two cases in this language.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Ben tillman

    I went to the campus of UC-Irvine all the time when I lived in California, not to study, but because the restaurants, coffeeshops, bookstores, and tailors were excellent, and the movie theatre showed foreign films (at that time I did not drink so bars were not a consideration). If he doesn't know about grammatical cases he prolly knows where to get top notch Viet-French food: and which is more important?

  11. Will they ever come for the Ottoman Empire? No, because it is Muslim.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrem_Sultan

  12. @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’d completely believe this theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.

     

    This has to be one of the most iSteve-characteristic lines ever.

    I’m not clear on what the Greeks thought the reason was that Ethiopians were so dark. Sometimes they seem to sound as if they assume Ethiopians were just so suntanned during their life that it was permanent.

     

    Isn't this view the human default?

    Even in STEM-crazed Hong Kong, it's widely believed, even among the well-educated, that tall people (such as yours truly) got that way because they played basketball a lot and did plenty of jumping, which somehow stretches the body into a permanently-elongated form. I've heard this 'explanation' over and over in my years here.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Spect3r

    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism: Giraffes have long necks because they stretched for leaves up high.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Ben tillman


    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

     

    I hadn't really either before I came here.

    It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. The whole education system here is built on this belief. This has extreme consequences, both positive and negative. Yes, you get families who 'value education' with the power of religious devotion. It also means there are a lot of unhappy kids who aren't academically talented, and who are pushed to 'study harder' for their entire childhoods.

    Daughter C went through the local education system (she's now at university), and was a very successful student. I long ago lost track of how many times Mrs C and I have been asked for our 'secret' for getting her to study so hard (because how else could she be smart?). It's assumed Mrs C and I developed some kind of educational-alchemical formula that balanced getting her into the 'right' school, plus the 'right' number of hours spent on homework, plus the 'right' tutorial/cram classes, plus the 'right' extracurriculars, plus the 'right' books read for 'leisure', and on and on.

    This isn't to say that HK Chinese people are 'unscientific' in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I'd say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @kicktheroos, @Dr. Weezil

    , @kaganovitch
    @Ben tillman

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism

    Lamarckism?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman

  13. Anonymous[267] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces.

    https://nypost.com/2021/05/11/i-saw-tribalism-rip-a-country-apart-and-now-its-happening-here/

    In Somalia, I was taught to be suspicious of anyone from a different clan, to always think harm was coming my way and to be guarded against anyone that was “other.” I come from the Darod clan, and was taught to constantly listen to accents, examine face shapes and overanalyze all non-verbal cues, searching for any indications of a different tribe. I can still identify a Somali (and usually their clan) from across a room.

  14. I don’t get where Betancourt’s conclusions come from. It isn’t from the source material he provides.

  15. Newark, New Jersey is erasing the anti-blackness:

    • Replies: @Mike_from_SGV
    @CCZ

    Shouldn't the statue be holding a crack pipe or something?

    , @Alden
    @CCZ

    Who’s the woman in the red dress? . The mother of Gianna?

    , @stillCARealist
    @CCZ

    Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless. All they have to do is sit around and pose... women will come and cuddle up to them.

    This is supposed to be a hero? I would be utterly offended if I were black.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Colin Wright

  16. @Ben tillman
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism: Giraffes have long necks because they stretched for leaves up high.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @kaganovitch

    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

    I hadn’t really either before I came here.

    It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. The whole education system here is built on this belief. This has extreme consequences, both positive and negative. Yes, you get families who ‘value education’ with the power of religious devotion. It also means there are a lot of unhappy kids who aren’t academically talented, and who are pushed to ‘study harder’ for their entire childhoods.

    Daughter C went through the local education system (she’s now at university), and was a very successful student. I long ago lost track of how many times Mrs C and I have been asked for our ‘secret’ for getting her to study so hard (because how else could she be smart?). It’s assumed Mrs C and I developed some kind of educational-alchemical formula that balanced getting her into the ‘right’ school, plus the ‘right’ number of hours spent on homework, plus the ‘right’ tutorial/cram classes, plus the ‘right’ extracurriculars, plus the ‘right’ books read for ‘leisure’, and on and on.

    This isn’t to say that HK Chinese people are ‘unscientific’ in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I’d say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @anon
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Yes.

    https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/fake-money-burning-chinese-2.jpg

    https://marcianosmx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/dinero_fantasma_10.jpg

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    "It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. "

    So in other words, nations like China look at the end result (smart people) and work backwards. They assume that, "well, they must've gotten that way because they studied harder so most, so the correct formula would be to increase the hrs studying and then most people will become smarter".

    So, modern Chinese don't value genetics, or nature based theories regarding intelligence? Or they're simply unfamiliar with them at large?

    , @kicktheroos
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    British or all people with british last names mixed breeds or full,there will be zero tolerance the one drop rule applies,you people don't belong in asia , Australia's days are numbered.

    , @Dr. Weezil
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    This isn’t to say that HK Chinese people are ‘unscientific’ in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I’d say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.
     
    Indeed, they LOVE masks and have for decades.

    Replies: @J.Ross

  17. ‘Slavic slave women were much in demand in the old time Middle East, just as Oil Arabs today like blonde prostitutes.’

    I don’t believe the Byzantines practiced slavery, but I could be wrong.

    • Replies: @Charlotte
    @Colin Wright

    Slavery was legal in the Byzantine empire, but it declined in frequency over a period of centuries. Boys who were castrated were generally (always?) slaves.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

  18. the importance of teaching our history of racism in classrooms.

    I am so sick and tired of people who want a particular subject, skill, point of view, whatever “taught” (as if) in school, to other people’s kids.

    It’s important that school kids get taught how public university profsters are tax leeches.

  19. So, in the north there is more selection for beauty among women, while in the south (especially in sub-Saharan Africa hoe agricultural system), there is more selection for work among women.

    Perfection. Chef’s kiss.

  20. Constantine VII, a 10th Century Byzantine Emperor wrote the following:

    For each nation has different customs and divergent laws and institutions, and should consolidate those things that are proper to it, and should form and develop out of the same nation the associations for the fusion of its life. For just as each animal mates with its own tribe, so it is right that each nation should marry and cohabit not with those of other race and tongue but of the same tribe and speech. For hence arise naturally harmony of thought and intercourse among one another and friendly converse and living together; but alien customs and divergent laws are likely on the contrary to engender enmities and quarrels and hatreds and broils, which tend to beget not friendship and association but spite and division.”

    Can anyone honestly disagree with above statement? It was true a 1,000 years ago. It is true today.

    Diversity is not a strength.

  21. And still, even the Woke show their Raaaccciiisssmmmm by completely overlooking deaf lesbian Eskimoes and queer Malaysian midgets. Oh the humanity!

  22. The ancient Egyptian’s used to paint men darker than women. Until Coco Chanel became a trend setter, ladies always tried to stay untanned. Even in Africa, women in some tribes went into “Fattening Hits”, where they also avoided the sun for a while, before marriage. Anyone can get darker by hanging out in the sun, it takes no special talent. Well, there is one guy at the dog park, I used to attend. He is “The Pug Father”. Of Scottish ancestry, he says that he never gets sun burned, he just bursts into flames!

  23. I just watched Charles Murray on Tucker Carlson’s show. The interview was short and mostly focused on how we need to be colorblind and emphasize merit.

    However, Charles Murray briefly mentioned that “group differences” account for why Blacks are underrepresented in high-paying, lucrative jobs (like being a senior manager at Microsoft).

  24. The Byzantine Empire was full of guys who looked like Proximo.

    Watch this really cool 4-minute video. You won’t be disappointed.

  25. “It took humanity a ridiculous amount of time to come up with the theory of natural selection, which is only 163 years old, which helps explain why thinking in terms of natural selection is still so alien to many in 2021.”

    Evolution is a hoax, Sailer. Thinking in terms of Darwinism is more alien than ever because microbiology. Darwinism was much more palatable when cells were simple boring empty sacs. ‘Resting phase’ was still taught in 1990 – I was there, 10th-grade biology.

    We were created, so find a new metaphysics – viz, Christianity.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @Je Suis Omar Mateen

    Evolution is a hoax, Sailer. Thinking in terms of Darwinism is more alien than ever because microbiology.

    How so? We just watched the coronavirus evolve into new variants.

  26. For example, those reared in the extreme cold and shade were understood as having been burned white by the cold, and Hippocrates even said that the men in these places became eunuchs and behaved like women.

    Guess when he said to do no harm he meant except against Swedish men.

    Sick burn, Hippocrates.

  27. Surprisingly, Byzantine sources were often silent on this racialized difference, potentially taking it for granted in their cosmopolitan empire.”

    This is an argument from silence, a la, ‘because the official sources are mum on racial differences, “obviously” they exist.’– whereas in a court of law, proof and evidence must be loudly produced and proclaimed; silence isn’t golden in this case. The book sounds only a step or two above Black Athena or Black-centric history (e.g. “We wuz Kangs”). Betancourt simply can’t be this obtuse to have gotten to the level that he has in Academia. Most likely he’s going with the Current Year Narrative, or to paraphrase classic Hollywood director John Ford, “When the Narrative becomes fact, print the Narrative.” No telling what he’ll do next with Edward III’s son, the Prince of Wales, known as “The Black Prince.”

    • Replies: @Michelle
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Thanks for your input, Faux Jimbo, Pseudo Ishi.. Are there plentiful Byzantine writings that you have read, that have given you the impression that the Byzantine's were either, "Race neutral", or "Racists"? Probably not. I think that I agree with you, that scant evidence exists, as to how the People of Byzantium regarded race. Which is to say, that they didn't.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  28. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Ben tillman


    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

     

    I hadn't really either before I came here.

    It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. The whole education system here is built on this belief. This has extreme consequences, both positive and negative. Yes, you get families who 'value education' with the power of religious devotion. It also means there are a lot of unhappy kids who aren't academically talented, and who are pushed to 'study harder' for their entire childhoods.

    Daughter C went through the local education system (she's now at university), and was a very successful student. I long ago lost track of how many times Mrs C and I have been asked for our 'secret' for getting her to study so hard (because how else could she be smart?). It's assumed Mrs C and I developed some kind of educational-alchemical formula that balanced getting her into the 'right' school, plus the 'right' number of hours spent on homework, plus the 'right' tutorial/cram classes, plus the 'right' extracurriculars, plus the 'right' books read for 'leisure', and on and on.

    This isn't to say that HK Chinese people are 'unscientific' in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I'd say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @kicktheroos, @Dr. Weezil

    And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Yes.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @anon

    It's likely pretend money, used during tomb-sweeping day for this purpose.

  29. For the umpteenth tine, the basis of the Alf Layla wa Layla is the Sultan getting cucked by a particularly ape-like negro and being so angry about it that he kills every subsequent wife unless she can compose a cliffhanger.

  30. “ Recognizing anti-Blackness in the deep past, particularly the Christian Middle Ages, allows us to better understand how colorist prejudices were racialized and transmitted from Ancient Greece and Rome to the modern Western world.”

    Lol, what a moron. Yes, everyone figures out pretty quickly that blacks are nothing but trouble. Just like everyone figures out eventually that you really need to get rid of the Jews if you want some peace. Call it what you like, it’s simply a logical response to reality.

  31. @Ben tillman

    . . . Odysseus, who Homer described as “black skinned” . . . .
     
    A “Chancellor’s Fellow” at UC-Irvine doesn’t know that pronouns have two cases in this language.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    I went to the campus of UC-Irvine all the time when I lived in California, not to study, but because the restaurants, coffeeshops, bookstores, and tailors were excellent, and the movie theatre showed foreign films (at that time I did not drink so bars were not a consideration). If he doesn’t know about grammatical cases he prolly knows where to get top notch Viet-French food: and which is more important?

  32. Anonymous[215] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m curious about these trans saints—never heard of such a thing. Anyone know what he’s referring to?

  33. “In other words, this emperor was always out and about doing emperor-stuff outdoors like training his army and thus was tanned, unlike some decadent emperors we could mention who spent all their time indoors.”

    Ironically by the late Middle Ages all the way up to post WW2, tanned skin was assiduously avoided by the nobility of Western Europe, by both men and women. One of the things you notice about the wealthy, nobility etc of Western Europe and the US up to the 20th century, is how pale their skin tended to be.

    Tanned skin was a social marker, signifying that one worked outdoors doing manual labor (peasants, serfs, the poor in general) and thus was not to the manor born. The court of Louis XIV, for example, prized women who were of pale complexion, and those at court Versailles would use parasols when walking outside on sunny days so as not to let their skin get tanned. Men of the nobility were also strongly discouraged from getting a tan as it would mark them as peasants and not of the noble classes.

    So basically ca. 1300-1945, tanning in the West simply wasn’t a thing among the upper classes. Even during the late 19th/early 20th century, photos of people on beaches the bathing suits were akin to thermal underwear, with little skin exposed to the sun. Supposedly this was also the case in Medieval Japan: tanned skin meant that a woman was poor, out in the sun working all day and not a member of the nobility.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Tans weren’t valued, but the powdered ashen white look was only style in for a few eras (France at the height of its decadence, absolutely). Premodern types tended to compliment men and women for more of a florid, rosy look. A “bright” complexion.

    1945 is really stretching it for avoiding the sun, too. Tanning was a thing among the upper classes by WWI. The Romanov princesses were described and photographed as ruddy/tanned during the 1910s, and their proper Victorian mother expresses discontent about the “new craze” in her diary.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  34. @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’d completely believe this theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.

     

    This has to be one of the most iSteve-characteristic lines ever.

    I’m not clear on what the Greeks thought the reason was that Ethiopians were so dark. Sometimes they seem to sound as if they assume Ethiopians were just so suntanned during their life that it was permanent.

     

    Isn't this view the human default?

    Even in STEM-crazed Hong Kong, it's widely believed, even among the well-educated, that tall people (such as yours truly) got that way because they played basketball a lot and did plenty of jumping, which somehow stretches the body into a permanently-elongated form. I've heard this 'explanation' over and over in my years here.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Spect3r

    Hah, Calvinist, I have heard both of these ones! A Chinese lady keeps telling me that basketball theory, and I tried to explain the confusion between cause and effect. “No, you see, they are good at basketball because they are tall, so they play more. Duh!” “Show me the money mechanism!”

    Now, on the tanning thing, at least there may be something to that view. I know Chinese people HATE HATE HATE to be in the sun – they are not big beach people. They believe that once you go tan you don’t come back, as if it is cumulative, at least to some degree (maybe it ratchets up each beach season). Often old wives tales beat out high IQ.

    Do the Chinese ladies still go around with umbrellas in the summer sun, OK, all year in Hong Kong, Calvinist? That was always pretty charming.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do the Chinese ladies still go around with umbrellas in the summer sun, OK, all year in Hong Kong, Calvinist? That was always pretty charming.

     

    Yes.

    And, increasingly, so do Chinese men. I've even seen it spreading amongst 20-something males. I think it's because they want to look pale and etiolated, like androgynous Korean pop stars.

    Replies: @Escher

    , @Alec Leamas (working from home)
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Now, on the tanning thing, at least there may be something to that view. I know Chinese people HATE HATE HATE to be in the sun – they are not big beach people. They believe that once you go tan you don’t come back, as if it is cumulative, at least to some degree (maybe it ratchets up each beach season). Often old wives tales beat out high IQ.
     
    In the modern American diversitopia view Asians - because they are nonwhite - possess some measure of virtue.

    But in the far East, I think Asians are much more aware of differences between them. In the U.S., Asian youth refer to each other as "fancy Asians" which are Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans, or "jungle Asians," which are Southeast Asians such as Thais, Filipinos or Vietnamese. The former are lighter complected, while the latter tend to be darker and browner. It's also the case that over the course of history in East Asia the former were at various times imperial powers which ruled over the darker skinned peoples of Asia. Since Asians have the ability to tan, if you're Japanese or Chinese you risk looking like a Thai or Vietnamese if you spend time in the sun. I've read that mainland Japanese have historically treated even the darker-skinned Okinawans as a detestable lower caste . . .
  35. Juneteenth passed the House, and now the last chance is for Biden to veto it.

    Anyone taking bets?

    How is this doing on PredictIt?

  36. OT:

    Daily reminder that the US’ ruling class hates us and wants us dead:

    House sends Juneteenth bill to Biden’s desk

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/house-sends-juneteenth-bill-to-bidens-desk-01623887137?mod=mw_latestnews

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States will soon have a new federal holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the nation.

    The House voted 415-14 Wednesday to make Juneteenth, or June 19th, the 12th federal holiday. The bill now goes to President Joe Biden’s desk to be signed into law.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Surprised it took this long.

    If you're going to have federal holidays a day to celebrate the end of slavery beats a month to celebrate distended anuses, necrotic front holes, and barren wombs.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Hapalong Cassidy

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Hey, who am I to argue against having another day off work? Steve himself has complained about the lack of holidays during the summer, which is exactly the time that there should be more holidays.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    In New Jersey this became a holiday last year, but ironically this year and next it falls on a weekend. Therefore, it will be celebrated this year on Friday the 18th.

  37. Oh where was this “Ronald Betancourt” when Donna Zuckerberg was stapling together the last issues of EIDOLON?

    The Middle Ages offer crucial lessons to us today as we continue the struggle for trans rights, work against anti-Black police brutality and articulate the importance of teaching our history of racism in classrooms.

    Bogus historical studies (fit to print in the Washington Post – which is starting to mean “all of them”) can be smoked out by fast-forwarding to the last paragraph, which inevitably give the game away; in this case, as a conjecture-driven smokescreen and covering fire for (yet again) hitting us all on the head with the all-important Narrative in order to reinforce the even-more-important Agenda.

    If anyone out there can propose a more profoundly-depressing contrivance than to explore, in depth, the unimaginably rich and fascinating storehouse of human history simply to repurpose vague incidental details into excusing/neglecting barbarism, attacking the timeless human impulse to defend the realm as ‘bigotry’ and ‘xenophobia’ – and of course, to champion the holy tranny against the tyranny of nature herself …..then please don’t tell me what it is. Watching civilization crumble as though it were one more Confederate statue is about all I can bear without being told there’s something still worse coming, and that our elites and wise men have all signed off on it already.

    PS: for the full-yarmulke version of Betancourt’s “scholarship’…try this on for size:

    https://theconversation.com/why-white-supremacists-and-qanon-enthusiasts-are-obsessed-but-very-wrong-about-the-byzantine-empire-154994

  38. Steve, you can argue on your blog with this Roland Betancourt, PhD, all you want, but let me tell you what this comes down to. It doesn’t matter what field you’re in, or whether this is a Masters thesis, PhD dissertation, or another paper for the Journal to put a feather in your cap, the fact is, you can’t lose with this shit.

    You put some race angle, so long as it’s anti-white or bitching about some imaginary bad effect on black people, in your thesis/dissertation/paper, and you’re gonna have no problem getting it through. You, more than 99% of us, keep up with what’s been going on with this wokeness deal in Academia and the Lyin’ Press. Nobody, but nobody, is going to make a real argument with you when you come up with more stupid ideas about who else was racist. Anyone arguing is putting his career on the line by doing so.

    Roland Betancourt, PhD, says:

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Achmed E. Newman

    He's wrong. He's behind the curve, which is not what one goes into academia to be.

    Quiet desperation.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @International Jew
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Pretty much. And then they go on and teach this garbage to their students. How lucky I was, that I attended college before the counterenlightenment.

  39. I’d completely believe this theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.

    I mean, there are more strict selection factors for increased body fat and body shape with regards to mass to surface area ratio due to that most unforgiving of environmental pressures, arctic winters.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Altai

    No shit. It's almost like Steve likes making light hearted joke sometimes. Nice display of Turbo Autism on your part.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Altai

    Right.

    Is there anybody in-between Scandinavians and Eskimos in latitude.

    Laplanders, I guess.

    I don't know much about them.

    Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle, @Yngvar

  40. @Achmed E. Newman
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Hah, Calvinist, I have heard both of these ones! A Chinese lady keeps telling me that basketball theory, and I tried to explain the confusion between cause and effect. "No, you see, they are good at basketball because they are tall, so they play more. Duh!" "Show me the money mechanism!"

    Now, on the tanning thing, at least there may be something to that view. I know Chinese people HATE HATE HATE to be in the sun - they are not big beach people. They believe that once you go tan you don't come back, as if it is cumulative, at least to some degree (maybe it ratchets up each beach season). Often old wives tales beat out high IQ.

    Do the Chinese ladies still go around with umbrellas in the summer sun, OK, all year in Hong Kong, Calvinist? That was always pretty charming.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Do the Chinese ladies still go around with umbrellas in the summer sun, OK, all year in Hong Kong, Calvinist? That was always pretty charming.

    Yes.

    And, increasingly, so do Chinese men. I’ve even seen it spreading amongst 20-something males. I think it’s because they want to look pale and etiolated, like androgynous Korean pop stars.

    • Replies: @Escher
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Androgyny is not one of the more redeeming features of K-Pop culture.

  41. If the writer of this article had any degree of self awareness, he would instantly realize that his metabolic processes are a complete waste of oxygen. A society so decadent that it affords for people like this, who produce nothing of inherent worth yet live luxurious lives while trying to destroy the host society, will not exist for much longer.

  42. Putin tells a Black reporter that they don’t want a BLM situation in Russia. And that the US has locked up 400 people and actually shot dead an unarmed woman.

    Have you little CivNats, you actually think this doesn’t appeal to White men in America?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @RichardTaylor

    Little? You'd best hope we're not little.

    Putin talking about it both appeals to us and further alienates the rest of the country from us which is why he does it. If we weren't carrying an empire around on our backs he'd have less incentive to f*ck with us but we do so he does.

    Speaking here to non-Americans he's also legit attempting to fill the vacuum left by the GAE abandonment of the role of savvy world broker/leader that their predecessors filled for most of the previous four hundred odd years.

  43. @The Wild Geese Howard
    OT:

    Daily reminder that the US' ruling class hates us and wants us dead:

    House sends Juneteenth bill to Biden’s desk

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/house-sends-juneteenth-bill-to-bidens-desk-01623887137?mod=mw_latestnews

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States will soon have a new federal holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the nation.

    The House voted 415-14 Wednesday to make Juneteenth, or June 19th, the 12th federal holiday. The bill now goes to President Joe Biden’s desk to be signed into law.
     

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ScarletNumber

    Surprised it took this long.

    If you’re going to have federal holidays a day to celebrate the end of slavery beats a month to celebrate distended anuses, necrotic front holes, and barren wombs.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Desiderius


    If you’re going to have federal holidays a day to celebrate the end of slavery beats a month to celebrate distended anuses, necrotic front holes, and barren wombs.
     
    Thanks bruh, I just had dinner.

    Imma go try to keep it down now.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Desiderius

    In the immortal words of Mel Brooks, that may be coming very soon!

  44. @Achmed E. Newman
    Steve, you can argue on your blog with this Roland Betancourt, PhD, all you want, but let me tell you what this comes down to. It doesn't matter what field you're in, or whether this is a Masters thesis, PhD dissertation, or another paper for the Journal to put a feather in your cap, the fact is, you can't lose with this shit.

    You put some race angle, so long as it's anti-white or bitching about some imaginary bad effect on black people, in your thesis/dissertation/paper, and you're gonna have no problem getting it through. You, more than 99% of us, keep up with what's been going on with this wokeness deal in Academia and the Lyin' Press. Nobody, but nobody, is going to make a real argument with you when you come up with more stupid ideas about who else was racist. Anyone arguing is putting his career on the line by doing so.

    Roland Betancourt, PhD, says:

    https://www.peakstupidity.com/images/That_Was_Easy.jpg

    Replies: @Desiderius, @International Jew

    He’s wrong. He’s behind the curve, which is not what one goes into academia to be.

    Quiet desperation.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Desiderius

    Behind what curve, Desiderius? Do you think this woke stuff is going away real soon?

    Replies: @Desiderius

  45. @The Wild Geese Howard
    OT:

    Daily reminder that the US' ruling class hates us and wants us dead:

    House sends Juneteenth bill to Biden’s desk

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/house-sends-juneteenth-bill-to-bidens-desk-01623887137?mod=mw_latestnews

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States will soon have a new federal holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the nation.

    The House voted 415-14 Wednesday to make Juneteenth, or June 19th, the 12th federal holiday. The bill now goes to President Joe Biden’s desk to be signed into law.
     

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ScarletNumber

    Hey, who am I to argue against having another day off work? Steve himself has complained about the lack of holidays during the summer, which is exactly the time that there should be more holidays.

  46. @Desiderius
    @Achmed E. Newman

    He's wrong. He's behind the curve, which is not what one goes into academia to be.

    Quiet desperation.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Behind what curve, Desiderius? Do you think this woke stuff is going away real soon?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Stranger things have happened. It’s definitely in the fat part of the curve, which is what people pursue academic careers to avoid, at least traditionally.

    If the nature of academia changes to something more like madrassas it could be here for centuries, but if they’re to stat universities they’ll be chasing the next fad soon to stay ahead of the Jonesbergs.

  47. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Surprisingly, Byzantine sources were often silent on this racialized difference, potentially taking it for granted in their cosmopolitan empire."

    This is an argument from silence, a la, 'because the official sources are mum on racial differences, "obviously" they exist.'-- whereas in a court of law, proof and evidence must be loudly produced and proclaimed; silence isn't golden in this case. The book sounds only a step or two above Black Athena or Black-centric history (e.g. "We wuz Kangs"). Betancourt simply can't be this obtuse to have gotten to the level that he has in Academia. Most likely he's going with the Current Year Narrative, or to paraphrase classic Hollywood director John Ford, "When the Narrative becomes fact, print the Narrative." No telling what he'll do next with Edward III's son, the Prince of Wales, known as "The Black Prince."

    Replies: @Michelle

    Thanks for your input, Faux Jimbo, Pseudo Ishi.. Are there plentiful Byzantine writings that you have read, that have given you the impression that the Byzantine’s were either, “Race neutral”, or “Racists”? Probably not. I think that I agree with you, that scant evidence exists, as to how the People of Byzantium regarded race. Which is to say, that they didn’t.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Michelle

    "I think that I agree with you"

    Thank you. You should, because you're wrong and I'm correct.


    "that scant evidence exists, as to how the People of Byzantium regarded race."

    In a court of law, direct evidence must be produced. The wishful thinking that ancient Byzantium was colorblind and had tons of Sub-Saharans running around their empire is a product of 21st century lenses, a la political correctness, multiculti obsession that "because we're so multi ethnic now, history must've always been the same way at all times." When it was not.


    "Which is to say, that they didn’t."

    Once again, an argument from silence is not evidence. There is no proof, no direct evidence, therefore one goes with the certainty. And that is, no Sub-Saharans resided in Byzantium during this time frame. Something called a 2,000 mile long and wide desert (Sahara) to cross to deal with the Sub-Saharan tribes, and there wasn't a need to go there.

    They didn't make a deal about it, because they were all about 99.9% Caucasian. No need to make a deal out of peoples that for the most part, resemble yourself. If you don't like it, take it up with Charles Darwin, or his nephew Francis Galton (father of modern Eugenics).

    If you want straightforward detailed accounts of non-Sub-Saharans encounters with Sub-Saharans, one would do well to study the Arabs, who did write about them during the ninth, tenth, eleventh centuries as Islam travelled into Western Africa for conquest and slaves. The descriptions they depict of Sub-Saharans are very stark and in contrast to themselves, and leave no doubt that the peoples they were conquering, capturing as slaves, etc. were non-Caucasian. Not just hair color, or sunburnt type of skin, details are much more direct that there's no doubt.

    For the most part, the details regarding the Subs are not flattering.

  48. Another possibility is that the further north you go, the less portion of the year women gatherers can bring home the bacon so the more necessary are husband hunters to bag big game. And plowing in heavy northern soils requires a strong man, while lighter southern soils can be weeded by women with hoes. So, in the north there is more selection for beauty among women, while in the south (especially in sub-Saharan Africa hoe agricultural system), there is more selection for work among women.

    I would imagine that even in colder northern climates women in pre-industrial times did plenty of agricultural work.
    Also, where do tropical areas other than sub-Saharan Africa fit into this, such as India, Southeast Asia, and the southern part of China?

  49. @Bill

    I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces.
     
    Huh? My kids look like me. Even compared to people of my same nationality. If yours don't bear a similar resemblance to you, then a less polite person than I might say something unkind about your wife. Perceptions are relative. I'd bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    In Greek, terms like “womanly” (gynaikias) and “soft” (malthakous) were slurs for effeminate men and for men who slept with men respectively. Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.
     
    Particularly? More like only. "Men who slept with men" in our sense of that phrase was not a category. "Men who got nailed" was a category. Our view of gays as basically normal men who happen to be attracted to other men is a bizarre, new, completely delusional way of thinking about things. It's interesting that he mentions this, though---this other way of thinking about gays that absolutely everyone else who thinks about them uses. It's almost a secret. Not the kind of knowledge that we can trust the plebs with.

    Replies: @Matt Buckalew, @Dissident, @Rohirrimborn

    When Steve gets away from dunking on high swagger high T bruthas he starts saying really silly shit like this. I just give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s a adopted kid cope.

  50. So the Byzantine emperor chose Scandinavians as his personal elite guard because… They were weak and womanly?

    Maybe he thought the Varangian guard looked so effeminate in comparison to his swarthy eminence that potential assassins would freeze in fear when they saw him in person. That must be the explanation.

    Where do they find the retards who write these papers?

    • Agree: Old Brown Fool
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Bill P

    Joking aside, the Varangian Guard was constituted relatively late in the game, by Basil II around the turn of the millennium. Because of the fraught circumstances in his early reign, he wanted a professional fighting force that was loyal to him and him alone. In a way, this mirrored the motivation of the caliphs creating Turkic slave armies in the Islamic World, but partially because they weren't slaves, they never posed a threat to state stability in the same way.

    In order to get this force, Basil was willing to marry his sister to the 'Rus king, Vladimir-a big departure in imperial tradition. The Latin chronicles at the time called Vladimir "Fornicator Immensis"-no translation needed! Basil didn't give a damn as he was willing to convert to Orthodox Christianity, which Vladimir duly did.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

  51. Next up: The Arabian Nights

  52. @jorge videla
    and then steve came for all comments against his narrative.

    what a hypocritical cunt.

    Replies: @22pp22, @ic1000

    You have a foul mouth. Let’s see how you like it. I suspect you were conceived down at docks when your mentally retarded mother sold herself to the entire crew of a tramp steamer. HBD at work.

    • Agree: Verymuchalive
    • LOL: Lurker
  53. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "In other words, this emperor was always out and about doing emperor-stuff outdoors like training his army and thus was tanned, unlike some decadent emperors we could mention who spent all their time indoors."

    Ironically by the late Middle Ages all the way up to post WW2, tanned skin was assiduously avoided by the nobility of Western Europe, by both men and women. One of the things you notice about the wealthy, nobility etc of Western Europe and the US up to the 20th century, is how pale their skin tended to be.

    Tanned skin was a social marker, signifying that one worked outdoors doing manual labor (peasants, serfs, the poor in general) and thus was not to the manor born. The court of Louis XIV, for example, prized women who were of pale complexion, and those at court Versailles would use parasols when walking outside on sunny days so as not to let their skin get tanned. Men of the nobility were also strongly discouraged from getting a tan as it would mark them as peasants and not of the noble classes.

    So basically ca. 1300-1945, tanning in the West simply wasn't a thing among the upper classes. Even during the late 19th/early 20th century, photos of people on beaches the bathing suits were akin to thermal underwear, with little skin exposed to the sun. Supposedly this was also the case in Medieval Japan: tanned skin meant that a woman was poor, out in the sun working all day and not a member of the nobility.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    Tans weren’t valued, but the powdered ashen white look was only style in for a few eras (France at the height of its decadence, absolutely). Premodern types tended to compliment men and women for more of a florid, rosy look. A “bright” complexion.

    1945 is really stretching it for avoiding the sun, too. Tanning was a thing among the upper classes by WWI. The Romanov princesses were described and photographed as ruddy/tanned during the 1910s, and their proper Victorian mother expresses discontent about the “new craze” in her diary.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @S. Anonyia

    Cary Grant was deeply tanned his whole career.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  54. Recognizing anti-Blackness in the deep past, particularly the Christian Middle Ages, allows us to better understand how colorist prejudices were racialized and transmitted from Ancient Greece and Rome to the modern Western world.

    But what about all those Hidden Wakandans who secretly underpinned western civilisation? If they have always been around and always influential then they must be just as guilty as the rest of us.

  55. @Desiderius
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Surprised it took this long.

    If you're going to have federal holidays a day to celebrate the end of slavery beats a month to celebrate distended anuses, necrotic front holes, and barren wombs.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Hapalong Cassidy

    If you’re going to have federal holidays a day to celebrate the end of slavery beats a month to celebrate distended anuses, necrotic front holes, and barren wombs.

    Thanks bruh, I just had dinner.

    Imma go try to keep it down now.

  56. I wish people would stop referring to the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantium; or more accurately, Basileus Romanon or Romanon Politeia as multi-cultural. The education system was thoroughly Greek, where young students were expected to learn large sections of Homer and the Greek Fathers. The bureaucracy was thoroughly Greek. They did not issue edicts in other languages (except at the beginning where some were issued in Latin). The legal system was thoroughly Greek. They did not issue laws in other languages (except right at the beginning where some were issued in Latin). Although, some non-Roman ethnicities existed in the empire like Armenians and Bulgars, if they wanted to engage with the Roman state they had to become Romanised or linguistically, Hellenised.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Agathoklis

    It wasn't multi-cultural before the West fell, either. The ancient world didn't view race through the same prism we do today. That didn't mean they were 21st Century "multi-kulti" bien-pensants. Greco-Roman culture was understood to be superior to the rest of the world, end of story.

    Provincials outside of the Hellenistic world all learned Latin and became Romanized as the centuries wore on. By the time the 3rd Century came along, the Latinate "Roman" identity was so strong in the militarized culture of the Balkans in particular that it led to 300 years where the majority of the emperors came from the same provinces, with Justinian-possibly the last native Latin speaker to hold the office-being the last of the bunch.

    In the east, things were different. Greek retained its status as a language, the culture and patterns of civilization that had existed before Rome endured. But that didn't mean they weren't Romans, at least by the 2nd Century or so. Certainly by the time Constantinople was built, the Eastern Mediterranean world had been part of the empire for several centuries. Its inhabitants considered themselves as Roman as their Western counterparts. I do think the conception of "Roman" in Byzantium changed so vastly after the 7th Century catastrophe that medieval Byzantium is best understood as another successor state to the empire. But that didn't mean the Byzantines could not, and did not claim with a straight face to be "Romans".

    The main difference from the West was that there was a shared Hellenistic culture-at least in Greece, Anatolia, and the urban areas of Egypt, Palestine, and Syria-and a tradition of organized urban life that predated the arrival of the empire. Because of this, the Roman state was able to integrate into pre-existing patterns of government. The cultural interchange was bi-directional, too: Rome was significantly Hellenized during the golden age of its civilization, with this only changing during the 3rd Century. As early as the reign of Claudius, the emperor commends someone for learning "both of our languages", i.e, Latin *and* Greek.

    In the West, by contrast, most of the conquered areas were inhabited by relatively backward tribal peoples: they naturally adopted Roman ways more uni-directionally than in the East as a result. The only other place in the West where this wasn't the case was North Africa, and the Romans so thoroughly erased the memory of Carthage that an entirely Latinate culture sprung up.

  57. @S. Anonyia
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Tans weren’t valued, but the powdered ashen white look was only style in for a few eras (France at the height of its decadence, absolutely). Premodern types tended to compliment men and women for more of a florid, rosy look. A “bright” complexion.

    1945 is really stretching it for avoiding the sun, too. Tanning was a thing among the upper classes by WWI. The Romanov princesses were described and photographed as ruddy/tanned during the 1910s, and their proper Victorian mother expresses discontent about the “new craze” in her diary.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Cary Grant was deeply tanned his whole career.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Grant, being part Greek, had naturally olive skin, which is conducive to getting a good tan outdoors. It became more noticeable to the public in the '50's, when he began to make more films in color. Hollywood usually is ahead of the curve regarding new trends, as many stars during the late '20's and throughout the '30's were able to engage in sunbathing (at the time a new trend, especially since they had discarded bathing suits akin to thermal that were popular during turn of the century).

  58. And when are they going to rename the Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn? In his “The Guide for the Perplexed”, Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Balaji

    And when are they going to rename the Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn? In his “The Guide for the Perplexed”, Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.

    Not any time soon. Maimonides Medical Center primarily serves the Hasidic community, and if there's any group in the US that cares less about political correctness than the Hasidim, I can't imagine who they are.

    Replies: @Balaji, @Colin Wright

  59. SZ says:
    @War for Blair Mountain
    Jeff Bezos...owner of the Washington Post....funds all this Wokeness-Black Lives Matter shit....Bezos probably jerks off to the mass murder of Native White Working Class Americans......Never Forget...Never Forget...

    Replies: @SZ

    Jeff Bezos does not own or control the WP, he merely paid for and funded it. Just like Ted Turner wasn’t owning or controlling Time-Warner but was tricked into paying for it. Similarly German Bayer does not own or control American Monsanto, but they just paid for it. These payments are to be seen as tributes.
    Jeff Bezos, after achieving some weight, had to pay a tribute, in his case this was financing the propaganda outlet called the WP. He does not own or control the WP, just as he didn’t control his ex-wife but only paid for and financed her.

  60. That reminds me. The point about Whiteness is that lack of tan means you are not a low-status person working in the fields.

  61. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Desiderius

    Behind what curve, Desiderius? Do you think this woke stuff is going away real soon?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Stranger things have happened. It’s definitely in the fat part of the curve, which is what people pursue academic careers to avoid, at least traditionally.

    If the nature of academia changes to something more like madrassas it could be here for centuries, but if they’re to stat universities they’ll be chasing the next fad soon to stay ahead of the Jonesbergs.

  62. @Ben tillman
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism: Giraffes have long necks because they stretched for leaves up high.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @kaganovitch

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism

    Lamarckism?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @kaganovitch



    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism

     

    Lamarckism?
     
    Lamarck, Lysenko
    Lysenko, Lamarck
    Lamark, Utrecht
    Utrecht, Utrillo
    Utrillo, me Doctor.
    , @ben tillman
    @kaganovitch

    Yes, of course, you are right.

    And that was my mistake, not my father's.

  63. and the development of reliable near-land sailing (when was that?)

    Far-from-land sailing is actually much safer, as long as you know where you are. Near unfamiliar land you run the risks of running aground on shoals, hitting rocks, or encountering hostile forces.

    … Because of its lineage dating to antiquity, the Byzantine Empire provides a unique lens on how racial tropes persisted across millennia and how they were transmitted and reconceived under Christian rule.

    This poor guy is thrashing about trying to stay relevant.

    The influence of the Byzantines on the modern world has been minuscule. Like the URL’s and e-mail’s.

    But it was more like: the Scythians are fairer than us Greeks and the Egyptians are darker, so we’re the golden mean…

    Scythy rabbit, Greeks are for kids.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Reg Cæsar

    Scythy rabbit, Greeks are for kids.
    LOL! First read as 'Kids are for Greeks'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece

    , @Verymuchalive
    @Reg Cæsar

    The influence of the Byzantines on the modern world has been minuscule.

    Wrong.
    The preservation of the Greek and Roman classics. The vast majority came via Byzantium.
    The Orthodox Church.
    Russia.

    Take off your RC blinkers, Reggie, and look at reality.
    Russia is steadily reviving and recovering, gaining great support from its traditions. Your lot, America, are rapidly going down the tube, taking the rest of the West with it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @J.Ross

  64. @kaganovitch
    @Ben tillman

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism

    Lamarckism?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism

    Lamarckism?

    Lamarck, Lysenko
    Lysenko, Lamarck
    Lamark, Utrecht
    Utrecht, Utrillo
    Utrillo, me Doctor.

  65. @Achmed E. Newman
    Steve, you can argue on your blog with this Roland Betancourt, PhD, all you want, but let me tell you what this comes down to. It doesn't matter what field you're in, or whether this is a Masters thesis, PhD dissertation, or another paper for the Journal to put a feather in your cap, the fact is, you can't lose with this shit.

    You put some race angle, so long as it's anti-white or bitching about some imaginary bad effect on black people, in your thesis/dissertation/paper, and you're gonna have no problem getting it through. You, more than 99% of us, keep up with what's been going on with this wokeness deal in Academia and the Lyin' Press. Nobody, but nobody, is going to make a real argument with you when you come up with more stupid ideas about who else was racist. Anyone arguing is putting his career on the line by doing so.

    Roland Betancourt, PhD, says:

    https://www.peakstupidity.com/images/That_Was_Easy.jpg

    Replies: @Desiderius, @International Jew

    Pretty much. And then they go on and teach this garbage to their students. How lucky I was, that I attended college before the counterenlightenment.

  66. How did the Eastern Roman Empire aka Byzantium last as long as it did?

    “In 404, Jews were excluded from certain governmental posts. In 418, they were barred from the civil service, and from all military positions. In 425, they were excluded from all remaining public offices, both civilian and military—a prohibition which Justinian I reiterated.” (Footnotes omitted.)

    History of the Jews in the Byzantine Empire
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Byzantine_Empire

    Nonetheless, the Jews generally were treated well and they prospered economically despite a number of restrictions such as buying Christian slaves. All laws dealing with the Jews implicitly recognized the continued existence and legality of the Jewish religion. Construction of new synagogues within the Empire was prohibited, though the repair of old synagogues was permitted.

    Hmm …. How about amending the U.S. Constitution to exclude Jews from public office?

  67. As is well-remarked before, the US has divided and is continuing to divide into 2 groups: super-fit elites and idiocracy-fat non-elites. This obscures natural differences between men and women–the women you tend to see in the US are obese or trying to be athletically competitive.

    The differences Steve mentions are more pronounced in Japan, where there are more average figures. Women’s natural body fat at a healthy BMI is easier to see, and they are indeed lighter on average than men in a culture where nobody tries to get California surfer tans.

  68. How did the Eastern Roman Empire aka Byzantium last as long as it did?

    “In 404, Jews were excluded from certain governmental posts. In 418, they were barred from the civil service, and from all military positions. In 425, they were excluded from all remaining public offices, both civilian and military—a prohibition which Justinian I reiterated.” (Footnotes omitted.)

    History of the Jews in the Byzantine Empire
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Byzantine_Empire

    Nonetheless, the Jews generally were treated well prospered economically despite a number of restrictions such as buying Christian slaves. All laws dealing with the Jews implicitly recognized the continued existence and legality of the Jewish religion. Construction of new synagogues within the Empire was prohibited, though the repair of old synagogues was permitted.

    How about amending the U.S Constitution to exclude Jews from public office?

  69. @Colin Wright
    'Slavic slave women were much in demand in the old time Middle East, just as Oil Arabs today like blonde prostitutes.'

    I don't believe the Byzantines practiced slavery, but I could be wrong.

    Replies: @Charlotte

    Slavery was legal in the Byzantine empire, but it declined in frequency over a period of centuries. Boys who were castrated were generally (always?) slaves.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Charlotte

    You're right about slavery. In the course of the Imperial Centuries ( AD 610-1071) per Romilly Jenkins, slavery declined into insignificance - probably reserved for captured Muslim POWs who refused to convert.

    Castration was illegal under the Byzantine Empire and the ban was strictly applied. Therefore, all the eunuchs employed under the Empire were of foreign origin, usually from the Caucasus or Persia. They were often performing administrative and other duties when they were captured or obtained by the Empire. The fact that they could not produce children meant they were not a threat to the Emperor or aristocracy. Many were very loyal to the Empire, the Orthodox Church and able servants of the Crown.
    The Armenian-born euneuch and general Narses was one of Justinian's greatest servants.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narses

    Quite often deposed Emperors might have their tongues cut so they could not talk ( often not very effective ), or, more rarely, blinded and sent to a monastery. These were regarded as humane alternatives to execution. Castration was never attempted. It was regarded as being against the Laws of God.

    So, under the earlier Byzantine Empire, the employment of eunuchs in administration and other spheres was regarded as useful. At the same time castration in the Empire was banned and the ban enforced very effectively.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

  70. Please don’t defund Byzantine Studies in favor of Emmett Till studies! We Byzantine scholars are still relevant.

    And this guy isn’t even exactly a Byzantine scholar, he’s an art historian. I suppose pretty soon if not already, if you take an art history course in college, then the lecturers drone on about whiteness and transphobia, instead of pointing out mythological or Biblical allusions or explaining the principles of perspective or saying something about the rise of the mercantile class in Flanders.

    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @International Jew

    Von Neumann was known to have expertise on Byzantine history on the level of experts

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann#Early_career_and_private_life

    , @John Johnson
    @International Jew

    And this guy isn’t even exactly a Byzantine scholar, he’s an art historian. I suppose pretty soon if not already, if you take an art history course in college, then the lecturers drone on about whiteness and transphobia, instead of pointing out mythological or Biblical allusions or explaining the principles of perspective or saying something about the rise of the mercantile class in Flanders.

    You are clearly not George Floyd University material.

    I'm sorry but your application has been rejected.

    Oh and you're a racist.

  71. @Balaji
    And when are they going to rename the Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn? In his "The Guide for the Perplexed", Maimonides wrote of Blacks, "I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey".

    Replies: @prosa123

    And when are they going to rename the Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn? In his “The Guide for the Perplexed”, Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.

    Not any time soon. Maimonides Medical Center primarily serves the Hasidic community, and if there’s any group in the US that cares less about political correctness than the Hasidim, I can’t imagine who they are.

    • Replies: @Balaji
    @prosa123

    The chief Sephardi rabbi of Israel likely had the great Talmudic scholar Maimonides in mind when he made some controversial remarks recently.

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/israeli-rabbi-fire-calling-black-people-monkeys/story?id=53929608

    , @Colin Wright
    @prosa123

    '...Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.'


    What exactly is the problem here? It actually strikes me as remarkably accurate, given Maimonides' presumably limited exposure to blacks. After all, they are above monkeys. Let's be objective about this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  72. In Greek archaic black-figure pottery, males are depicted as black, females as white.

    But then, in the subsequent, red-figure style, both sexes and everything else are most of the time a kind of reddish beige.

    The House of Komnenos was called dark going all the way back to its founder, Isaac, 1007 – 1060.

  73. «The emperor’s plan was to send their leaders back in the hope they might bring their people to their senses. He had honored them with the rebirth of holy baptism and the greatest gifts, hoping to use them to avert war, or so he thought, he spared their lives and restored them to their clans.

    But he realized then it is utterly pointless to “try to paint an Ethiopian white” for “to benefit a bad man is like feeding a snake. Grace is unlikely to engender goodwill from either one.”

    For once they returned to their own people, they behaved again in accordance with its customs, and would not cease their provocations. They made continual raids and ravaged the lands all round, plundering everything in their path and drenching Roman land with blood. So the emperor was yet again forced to send a mighty army against the barbarians.»

    The History of Michael Attaleiates, Constantinople (c. 1080 AD)

    «Σκοπὸν ἔσχεν ὁ βασιλεὺς τοὺς ἀρχηγοὺς αὐτῶν ἀποστεῖλαι συνετίσοντας τυχὸν τὸ ὁμόφυλον· ἔτυχε γὰρ αὐτοὺς τῆς τοῦ θείου λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας καταξιῶσαι καὶ φιλοτιμίας ἀξιῶσαι μεγίστης. καὶ δὴ ποιεῖται τούτους τῆς μάχης τάχα καταλλακτῆρας, καὶ ταῖς οἰκείαις φατρίαις αὖθις ἀνασώζει καὶ παραδίδωσιν. ἔγνω δὲ τότε πρῶτον ὅτι «μάτην Αἰθίοπα λευκᾶναί τις ἐπιβάλλεται», καὶ ὅτι «ὄφιν τρέφειν καὶ πονηρὸν εὐεργετεῖν ὅμοιον, καὶ οὐδ’ ἑκάστου τούτων ἡ χάρις ἀποτίκτειν εἴωθεν εὔνοιαν»· κατὰ γὰρ τὸ οἰκεῖον ἔθνος γενόμενοι πάντα πράττειν ὅσα, τὸ ἔθος αὐτοῖς παρῄνει καὶ διηρέθιζεν οὐκ ἀπείχοντο, συνεχεῖς ἐκδρομὰς ἐργαζόμενοι καὶ λαφυραγωγοῦντες τὰ κύκλῳ καὶ πᾶν τὸ προστυχὸν ληιζόμενοι, καὶ τὴν Ῥωμαϊκὴν γῆν τοῖς αἵμασι πιαίνοντες. διὸ καὶ συνηναγκάσθη πάλιν ὁ βασιλεὺς κατὰ τῶν βαρβάρων ἐλάσαι στρατιὰν ἀξιόμαχον.»

    —Ἡ Ἱστορία, Μιχαήλ Ἀτταλειάτης, Κωνσταντινούπολις (c. 1080 AD)

    «Consilum habuit rex duces eorum mittendi ut erudirent genus cognatum quod aderat. accidit enim ut eos novando divino baptismo dignare vellent et honore dignos habere maximo. atque sic facit eos pugnæ mox conciliatores et domesticis gentibus rursus restituit et tradit. intellexit autem tum primum, frustra Æthiopem albare aliquem niti, et serpentem alere et malo beneficere idem esse, neque cuiusque horum gratiam parere solere benevolentiam; etenim cum proprius populus facti essent omnia facere, ad quæ mos eos hortabatur et excitabat, non desistebant, cum continuos impetus facerent et spoliarent quæ circa erant et quæcunque occurrerent, privarent et Græcam terram sanguine satiarent propter quod etiam coactus est rursus rex contra barbaros ducere exercitum pugnacem.»

    Historia Michaelis Attaliatæ, Constantinopolis (c. 1080 AD)

  74. ike Odysseus, who Homer described as “black skinned” (melanochroous) in the “Odyssey.”

    This is a reference to lines 245-250 of book 19 and the adjective is describing Eurybates, a companion of Odysseus, not Odysseus.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @keypusher
    @Kent Nationalist

    It's clearly applied to Odysseus himself in book 16, line 175. But Athena is basically making him look youthful and vigorous before he reveals himself to Telemachus: she makes him taller, fills in the lines in his face, etc. One translator renders the word as "bronzed;" Fagles refers to her bringing back his ruddy tan. Seems likelier than her turning him into an Ethiopian.

  75. I’m not clear on what the Greeks thought the reason was that Ethiopians were so dark. Sometimes they seem to sound as if they assume Ethiopians are just tanned, or that they got so suntanned during their life that the tan became permanent. Or maybe they had a proto-Lamarckian view: their ancestors passed their tans down.

    There’s a Roman novel written by a Syrian, the Aethiopica, where the woman the hero falls in love with is a white (they use that word) Greek woman, but she turns out to be an Ethiopian princess who turned out white becasue her mother was looking at an image of Venus when she was conceived.

    Wikipedia says that she’s supposed to be an albino, but, from my memory of the novel, that is a made-up supposition and not actually the gist of the novel.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethiopica

    • Replies: @Rapparee
    @Kent Nationalist

    A plot element recycled almost unchanged for Tasso’s Jerusalem Delivered.

  76. Anonymous[970] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    and the development of reliable near-land sailing (when was that?)
     
    Far-from-land sailing is actually much safer, as long as you know where you are. Near unfamiliar land you run the risks of running aground on shoals, hitting rocks, or encountering hostile forces.


    … Because of its lineage dating to antiquity, the Byzantine Empire provides a unique lens on how racial tropes persisted across millennia and how they were transmitted and reconceived under Christian rule.
     
    This poor guy is thrashing about trying to stay relevant.
     
    The influence of the Byzantines on the modern world has been minuscule. Like the URL's and e-mail's.


    https://spotlight.vatlib.it/uploads/spotlight/attachment/file/486/Mellon_03J_Abbreviations.jpg

    But it was more like: the Scythians are fairer than us Greeks and the Egyptians are darker, so we’re the golden mean...
     
    Scythy rabbit, Greeks are for kids.


    https://static.dw.com/image/56509169_401.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Verymuchalive

    Scythy rabbit, Greeks are for kids.
    LOL! First read as ‘Kids are for Greeks’

  77. I like to think that somewhere, Charles Oman and Tom Lehrer were shooting the breeze and came up with something like this:
    “Now, Basil Porphyrogenitus is boss of all us jerks
    He doesn’t really like it when we lose against the Turks
    So we give ’em the Greek Fire – it’s not sporting, but it works
    It makes a fellow proud to be a Bulgar”

    Yeah, I know, but I’ll probably never get another chance at this.

  78. @The Wild Geese Howard
    OT:

    Daily reminder that the US' ruling class hates us and wants us dead:

    House sends Juneteenth bill to Biden’s desk

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/house-sends-juneteenth-bill-to-bidens-desk-01623887137?mod=mw_latestnews

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States will soon have a new federal holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the nation.

    The House voted 415-14 Wednesday to make Juneteenth, or June 19th, the 12th federal holiday. The bill now goes to President Joe Biden’s desk to be signed into law.
     

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Hapalong Cassidy, @ScarletNumber

    In New Jersey this became a holiday last year, but ironically this year and next it falls on a weekend. Therefore, it will be celebrated this year on Friday the 18th.

  79. The peoples of the “Byzantine” Empire considered themselves to be Romans until the very end in 1453.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    @The Alarmist

    2


    The peoples of the “Byzantine” Empire considered themselves to be Romans until the very end in 1453.
     
    Greek peasants called themselves "Romoi" right up into well into the 19th century. Intellectuals and bureaucrats from Athens had to come tell them they were now "Hellenes" after independence.
  80. The guy its not only a idiot, but a special Anglo-idiot of a kind…so “Byzantines are not White” to Europeans?!
    Which Europeans? They look like any other Mediterranic people. When the Empire fall (and long before this…) at least tens of thousands arrive in Italy, France, Spain, etc.. and certainnly, they are never described like “não Branco/Blanc/Bianchi”etc…
    And “White” it’s a concept that only arose in XVII century. The Empire was finish in 1453.
    And they are still Brancos. But now they are called Turks…

  81. @Charlotte
    @Colin Wright

    Slavery was legal in the Byzantine empire, but it declined in frequency over a period of centuries. Boys who were castrated were generally (always?) slaves.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    You’re right about slavery. In the course of the Imperial Centuries ( AD 610-1071) per Romilly Jenkins, slavery declined into insignificance – probably reserved for captured Muslim POWs who refused to convert.

    Castration was illegal under the Byzantine Empire and the ban was strictly applied. Therefore, all the eunuchs employed under the Empire were of foreign origin, usually from the Caucasus or Persia. They were often performing administrative and other duties when they were captured or obtained by the Empire. The fact that they could not produce children meant they were not a threat to the Emperor or aristocracy. Many were very loyal to the Empire, the Orthodox Church and able servants of the Crown.
    The Armenian-born euneuch and general Narses was one of Justinian’s greatest servants.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narses

    Quite often deposed Emperors might have their tongues cut so they could not talk ( often not very effective ), or, more rarely, blinded and sent to a monastery. These were regarded as humane alternatives to execution. Castration was never attempted. It was regarded as being against the Laws of God.

    So, under the earlier Byzantine Empire, the employment of eunuchs in administration and other spheres was regarded as useful. At the same time castration in the Empire was banned and the ban enforced very effectively.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Verymuchalive

    '...So, under the earlier Byzantine Empire, the employment of eunuchs in administration and other spheres was regarded as useful. At the same time castration in the Empire was banned and the ban enforced very effectively.'

    This doesn't jibe with what I've read. To the contrary, often even elite families would have a son castrated. Grotesque as it sounds, since eunuchs were uniquely positioned to rise in the palace hierarchy, it was a means of protecting the family's standing.

    Perhaps different eras? After all, 'the Byzantine Empire', in one form or another, lasted for nearly a millennium. Generalizing about it would seem to be hazardous. What was true of Georgian England wouldn't really apply to the court of Ethelred the Unready.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @nebulafox

  82. @Bill

    I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces.
     
    Huh? My kids look like me. Even compared to people of my same nationality. If yours don't bear a similar resemblance to you, then a less polite person than I might say something unkind about your wife. Perceptions are relative. I'd bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    In Greek, terms like “womanly” (gynaikias) and “soft” (malthakous) were slurs for effeminate men and for men who slept with men respectively. Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.
     
    Particularly? More like only. "Men who slept with men" in our sense of that phrase was not a category. "Men who got nailed" was a category. Our view of gays as basically normal men who happen to be attracted to other men is a bizarre, new, completely delusional way of thinking about things. It's interesting that he mentions this, though---this other way of thinking about gays that absolutely everyone else who thinks about them uses. It's almost a secret. Not the kind of knowledge that we can trust the plebs with.

    Replies: @Matt Buckalew, @Dissident, @Rohirrimborn

    [From the Washington Post piece that is the basis for Mr. Sailer’s post] Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.

    Particularly? More like only. “Men who slept with men” in our sense of that phrase was not a category. “Men who got nailed” was a category.

    But who were such men “getting nailed” by? Other men, right? Were they ever considered “basically normal men who happen to be attracted to [and bugger] other men”? Can any man whose erotic interest is even predominately in other males (whether men or boys), let alone exclusively, properly be considered normal?

    You know, eunuchs weren’t just randomly “assigned male at birth” or they would have to castrate them.

    Didn’t you mean to write, “or they would not have to castrate them”?

    • Replies: @Bill
    @Dissident


    But who were such men “getting nailed” by? Other men, right? Were they ever considered “basically normal men who happen to be attracted to [and bugger] other men”? Can any man whose erotic interest is even predominately in other males (whether men or boys), let alone exclusively, properly be considered normal?
     
    You're operating inside the modern conception. You're assuming that the men who did the penetrating exclusively or almost exclusively penetrated other men, that there was a natural kind of man-penetrators. Classicals did not believe this. It's a weird belief.

    You're right in a way, though. A man who only wanted to penetrate other men would have seemed weird in Classical Antiquity. Like a man who only wanted to penetrate one-eyed, red-haired, paraplegic women. It would have been seen as a sexual oddity, a fetish, which reflected badly on the one having it. But it wasn't a thing. It wasn't seen as a natural kind.
  83. @Reg Cæsar

    and the development of reliable near-land sailing (when was that?)
     
    Far-from-land sailing is actually much safer, as long as you know where you are. Near unfamiliar land you run the risks of running aground on shoals, hitting rocks, or encountering hostile forces.


    … Because of its lineage dating to antiquity, the Byzantine Empire provides a unique lens on how racial tropes persisted across millennia and how they were transmitted and reconceived under Christian rule.
     
    This poor guy is thrashing about trying to stay relevant.
     
    The influence of the Byzantines on the modern world has been minuscule. Like the URL's and e-mail's.


    https://spotlight.vatlib.it/uploads/spotlight/attachment/file/486/Mellon_03J_Abbreviations.jpg

    But it was more like: the Scythians are fairer than us Greeks and the Egyptians are darker, so we’re the golden mean...
     
    Scythy rabbit, Greeks are for kids.


    https://static.dw.com/image/56509169_401.jpg

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Verymuchalive

    The influence of the Byzantines on the modern world has been minuscule.

    Wrong.
    The preservation of the Greek and Roman classics. The vast majority came via Byzantium.
    The Orthodox Church.
    Russia.

    Take off your RC blinkers, Reggie, and look at reality.
    Russia is steadily reviving and recovering, gaining great support from its traditions. Your lot, America, are rapidly going down the tube, taking the rest of the West with it.

    • Agree: S. Anonyia
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Verymuchalive


    Take off your RC blinkers, Reggie, and look at reality.
     
    That was a joke, buddy, which clearly went over your head. The illustration was included to make that obvious. Epic fail in your case.

    Minuscule is the formal term for "lower-case" script, and the source of the promiscuous and exaggerated usage of the word today. (Minuscules are more than half the height of majuscules.) You assumed I used it in the latter case. Gotcha.

    It's always amusing to see lower-case Greek used for classical-era concepts such as π. The ancients wrote-- carved-- like the Flintstones. As for those proto-minuscules, uncials, who had them first, Greeks or Irish?

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    , @J.Ross
    @Verymuchalive

    You're right except for the verb "came." Russia never had a Renaissance because Russia was never cut off from Greece and the classics, but Western Europe was effectively cut off from Russia by distance, so Western Europe did have a Renaissance.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

  84. @anon
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Yes.

    https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/fake-money-burning-chinese-2.jpg

    https://marcianosmx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/dinero_fantasma_10.jpg

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    It’s likely pretend money, used during tomb-sweeping day for this purpose.

  85. @The Last Real Calvinist

    I’d completely believe this theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.

     

    This has to be one of the most iSteve-characteristic lines ever.

    I’m not clear on what the Greeks thought the reason was that Ethiopians were so dark. Sometimes they seem to sound as if they assume Ethiopians were just so suntanned during their life that it was permanent.

     

    Isn't this view the human default?

    Even in STEM-crazed Hong Kong, it's widely believed, even among the well-educated, that tall people (such as yours truly) got that way because they played basketball a lot and did plenty of jumping, which somehow stretches the body into a permanently-elongated form. I've heard this 'explanation' over and over in my years here.

    Replies: @Ben tillman, @Achmed E. Newman, @Spect3r

    “Even in STEM-crazed Hong Kong, it’s widely believed, even among the well-educated, that tall people (such as yours truly) got that way because they played basketball a lot and did plenty of jumping, which somehow stretches the body into a permanently-elongated form. I’ve heard this ‘explanation’ over and over in my years here.”

    Im not saying you are lying, but i will need a source on this, please?

  86. I’m waiting for the first moron historian finding out that the most famous Polish knight was called Zawisza the Black, while the other knight from the same period was named Zawisza the Red. OMG we were so multiracial, inclusive and multiculti!

    (The brother of Zawisza the Black, Jan, was nicknamed Farurej which supposedly meant Egyptian)

  87. @prosa123
    @Balaji

    And when are they going to rename the Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn? In his “The Guide for the Perplexed”, Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.

    Not any time soon. Maimonides Medical Center primarily serves the Hasidic community, and if there's any group in the US that cares less about political correctness than the Hasidim, I can't imagine who they are.

    Replies: @Balaji, @Colin Wright

    The chief Sephardi rabbi of Israel likely had the great Talmudic scholar Maimonides in mind when he made some controversial remarks recently.

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/israeli-rabbi-fire-calling-black-people-monkeys/story?id=53929608

  88. @Steve Sailer
    @S. Anonyia

    Cary Grant was deeply tanned his whole career.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Grant, being part Greek, had naturally olive skin, which is conducive to getting a good tan outdoors. It became more noticeable to the public in the ’50’s, when he began to make more films in color. Hollywood usually is ahead of the curve regarding new trends, as many stars during the late ’20’s and throughout the ’30’s were able to engage in sunbathing (at the time a new trend, especially since they had discarded bathing suits akin to thermal that were popular during turn of the century).

  89. Why do East Asians make the most convincing MtF trans people in looks, even just as transvestites, while blacks make the most compelling in personality?

    Caucasians, European through Indian, seem to be somewhere in between.

  90. Here is a sports illustrated piece about up and coming Turkish soccer player Ertugrul Ersoy, 6’2”, who doesn’t look Greek at all.

    https://www.si.com/soccer/2018/11/19/highly-rated-turkish-defender-reveals-his-dream-play-liverpool

  91. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Ben tillman


    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

     

    I hadn't really either before I came here.

    It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. The whole education system here is built on this belief. This has extreme consequences, both positive and negative. Yes, you get families who 'value education' with the power of religious devotion. It also means there are a lot of unhappy kids who aren't academically talented, and who are pushed to 'study harder' for their entire childhoods.

    Daughter C went through the local education system (she's now at university), and was a very successful student. I long ago lost track of how many times Mrs C and I have been asked for our 'secret' for getting her to study so hard (because how else could she be smart?). It's assumed Mrs C and I developed some kind of educational-alchemical formula that balanced getting her into the 'right' school, plus the 'right' number of hours spent on homework, plus the 'right' tutorial/cram classes, plus the 'right' extracurriculars, plus the 'right' books read for 'leisure', and on and on.

    This isn't to say that HK Chinese people are 'unscientific' in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I'd say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @kicktheroos, @Dr. Weezil

    “It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. ”

    So in other words, nations like China look at the end result (smart people) and work backwards. They assume that, “well, they must’ve gotten that way because they studied harder so most, so the correct formula would be to increase the hrs studying and then most people will become smarter”.

    So, modern Chinese don’t value genetics, or nature based theories regarding intelligence? Or they’re simply unfamiliar with them at large?

  92. @Achmed E. Newman
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Hah, Calvinist, I have heard both of these ones! A Chinese lady keeps telling me that basketball theory, and I tried to explain the confusion between cause and effect. "No, you see, they are good at basketball because they are tall, so they play more. Duh!" "Show me the money mechanism!"

    Now, on the tanning thing, at least there may be something to that view. I know Chinese people HATE HATE HATE to be in the sun - they are not big beach people. They believe that once you go tan you don't come back, as if it is cumulative, at least to some degree (maybe it ratchets up each beach season). Often old wives tales beat out high IQ.

    Do the Chinese ladies still go around with umbrellas in the summer sun, OK, all year in Hong Kong, Calvinist? That was always pretty charming.

    Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist, @Alec Leamas (working from home)

    Now, on the tanning thing, at least there may be something to that view. I know Chinese people HATE HATE HATE to be in the sun – they are not big beach people. They believe that once you go tan you don’t come back, as if it is cumulative, at least to some degree (maybe it ratchets up each beach season). Often old wives tales beat out high IQ.

    In the modern American diversitopia view Asians – because they are nonwhite – possess some measure of virtue.

    But in the far East, I think Asians are much more aware of differences between them. In the U.S., Asian youth refer to each other as “fancy Asians” which are Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans, or “jungle Asians,” which are Southeast Asians such as Thais, Filipinos or Vietnamese. The former are lighter complected, while the latter tend to be darker and browner. It’s also the case that over the course of history in East Asia the former were at various times imperial powers which ruled over the darker skinned peoples of Asia. Since Asians have the ability to tan, if you’re Japanese or Chinese you risk looking like a Thai or Vietnamese if you spend time in the sun. I’ve read that mainland Japanese have historically treated even the darker-skinned Okinawans as a detestable lower caste . . .

  93. @Michelle
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Thanks for your input, Faux Jimbo, Pseudo Ishi.. Are there plentiful Byzantine writings that you have read, that have given you the impression that the Byzantine's were either, "Race neutral", or "Racists"? Probably not. I think that I agree with you, that scant evidence exists, as to how the People of Byzantium regarded race. Which is to say, that they didn't.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “I think that I agree with you”

    Thank you. You should, because you’re wrong and I’m correct.

    “that scant evidence exists, as to how the People of Byzantium regarded race.”

    In a court of law, direct evidence must be produced. The wishful thinking that ancient Byzantium was colorblind and had tons of Sub-Saharans running around their empire is a product of 21st century lenses, a la political correctness, multiculti obsession that “because we’re so multi ethnic now, history must’ve always been the same way at all times.” When it was not.

    “Which is to say, that they didn’t.”

    Once again, an argument from silence is not evidence. There is no proof, no direct evidence, therefore one goes with the certainty. And that is, no Sub-Saharans resided in Byzantium during this time frame. Something called a 2,000 mile long and wide desert (Sahara) to cross to deal with the Sub-Saharan tribes, and there wasn’t a need to go there.

    They didn’t make a deal about it, because they were all about 99.9% Caucasian. No need to make a deal out of peoples that for the most part, resemble yourself. If you don’t like it, take it up with Charles Darwin, or his nephew Francis Galton (father of modern Eugenics).

    If you want straightforward detailed accounts of non-Sub-Saharans encounters with Sub-Saharans, one would do well to study the Arabs, who did write about them during the ninth, tenth, eleventh centuries as Islam travelled into Western Africa for conquest and slaves. The descriptions they depict of Sub-Saharans are very stark and in contrast to themselves, and leave no doubt that the peoples they were conquering, capturing as slaves, etc. were non-Caucasian. Not just hair color, or sunburnt type of skin, details are much more direct that there’s no doubt.

    For the most part, the details regarding the Subs are not flattering.

  94. Odysseus, who Homer described as “black skinned” (melanochroous)

    Wasn’t Homer thought to have been blind, anyway? 😉

    On a more serious note, there’s an ages-old discussion as to what exactly Homer meant by “wine-dark sea”, so perhaps the meaning of “black skinned” isn’t cut and dry either.

    Also, multiple Indo-European languages have idioms associating black with hard work, including languages that historically weren’t in contact with any black people.

  95. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Do the Chinese ladies still go around with umbrellas in the summer sun, OK, all year in Hong Kong, Calvinist? That was always pretty charming.

     

    Yes.

    And, increasingly, so do Chinese men. I've even seen it spreading amongst 20-something males. I think it's because they want to look pale and etiolated, like androgynous Korean pop stars.

    Replies: @Escher

    Androgyny is not one of the more redeeming features of K-Pop culture.

  96. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Ben tillman


    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

     

    I hadn't really either before I came here.

    It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. The whole education system here is built on this belief. This has extreme consequences, both positive and negative. Yes, you get families who 'value education' with the power of religious devotion. It also means there are a lot of unhappy kids who aren't academically talented, and who are pushed to 'study harder' for their entire childhoods.

    Daughter C went through the local education system (she's now at university), and was a very successful student. I long ago lost track of how many times Mrs C and I have been asked for our 'secret' for getting her to study so hard (because how else could she be smart?). It's assumed Mrs C and I developed some kind of educational-alchemical formula that balanced getting her into the 'right' school, plus the 'right' number of hours spent on homework, plus the 'right' tutorial/cram classes, plus the 'right' extracurriculars, plus the 'right' books read for 'leisure', and on and on.

    This isn't to say that HK Chinese people are 'unscientific' in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I'd say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @kicktheroos, @Dr. Weezil

    British or all people with british last names mixed breeds or full,there will be zero tolerance the one drop rule applies,you people don’t belong in asia , Australia’s days are numbered.

  97. @jorge videla
    and then steve came for all comments against his narrative.

    what a hypocritical cunt.

    Replies: @22pp22, @ic1000

    >and then steve came for all comments against his narrative. what a hypocritical cunt.

    Here is a list of the comments that you have left at unz.com. Which do you see as making particular contributions to the discussions of points raised by their respective original posts?

    For better and worse, Sailer’s standards for comments aren’t particularly high, or consistent. One puzzle is that he doesn’t seem particularly fond of boorish Jew-baiting.

    There is a hint in there, if you want to try raising your game.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @ic1000

    I wish I could meet someone like him in real life. His comment history, with its dizzying array of alts, is amazing!

    My main theory is that he must be drunk - all of the time; but he also self-labelled as "a psychopath", which is unusual.

    It isn't just a troll account either, as it isn't funny, or attempting to be clever, and it goes back a long way.

    So interesting.

  98. Anonymous[372] • Disclaimer says:

    In my college cult anthro class the Invention of Racism was mostly blamed on Linnaeus — thanks, Carl! — albeit with a generalized tut-tutting against the Enlightenment, industrialization, Kant, etc. Before the 1600s the world was in an edenic state of color blindness apparently, or (alternatively) people were more inclined to “cline” prejudice, which is more acceptable from a social sciences point of view, I think…?

    It’s a weird gloss, considering how in Greco-Latin classics or even the Bible the obsession with genocide and one tribe/nation overrunning another is hard to miss. There just wasn’t a lot of scientific racism, i.e. anti-Black theorizing in the Old Testament or Hesiod, therefore, no “problematic race discussion” of the sort social science cares about ($$$).

    The curriculum went much gentler on Blumenbach for some archaic guild reason but still judged him misguided/racist.

  99. @ic1000
    @jorge videla

    >and then steve came for all comments against his narrative. what a hypocritical cunt.

    Here is a list of the comments that you have left at unz.com. Which do you see as making particular contributions to the discussions of points raised by their respective original posts?

    For better and worse, Sailer's standards for comments aren't particularly high, or consistent. One puzzle is that he doesn't seem particularly fond of boorish Jew-baiting.

    There is a hint in there, if you want to try raising your game.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    I wish I could meet someone like him in real life. His comment history, with its dizzying array of alts, is amazing!

    My main theory is that he must be drunk – all of the time; but he also self-labelled as “a psychopath”, which is unusual.

    It isn’t just a troll account either, as it isn’t funny, or attempting to be clever, and it goes back a long way.

    So interesting.

  100. “anti-Blackness and transphobia” are signs of prudence and mental health.

  101. @CCZ
    Newark, New Jersey is erasing the anti-blackness:

    https://twitter.com/supertracpak/status/1405272324694175748

    Replies: @Mike_from_SGV, @Alden, @stillCARealist

    Shouldn’t the statue be holding a crack pipe or something?

  102. Anonymous[815] • Disclaimer says:

    re: the 2005 piece, What’s your theory about why equivalent height/complexion Ewan McGregor had a better leading man’s career than Jude Law (who, pace Chris Rock jokes at the Oscars, still had a good run, and was banging Sadie Frost at one point before moving onto conventional supermodels)?

    I think Ewan like Russell Crowe just had that Cro-Magnon brute look that goes over well with both female and male viewers. Russ is undeniably a middling actor but he ushered in a generation of knock-off ANZAC hard men.

    Law’s biggest handicap for anything besides villain roles was his plummy accent.

  103. @International Jew

    Please don’t defund Byzantine Studies in favor of Emmett Till studies! We Byzantine scholars are still relevant.
     
    And this guy isn't even exactly a Byzantine scholar, he's an art historian. I suppose pretty soon if not already, if you take an art history course in college, then the lecturers drone on about whiteness and transphobia, instead of pointing out mythological or Biblical allusions or explaining the principles of perspective or saying something about the rise of the mercantile class in Flanders.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @John Johnson

    Von Neumann was known to have expertise on Byzantine history on the level of experts

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann#Early_career_and_private_life

  104. Roland Betancourt needs to meet Charlemagne’s Roland.

  105. Throughout the history of humans the substance which we most commonly encounter which is closest in color to the skin hues of non-whites is faeces. We develop a natural aversion to it to prevent the spread of disease. This aversion influences our aesthetic choices.

  106. This is laying the groundwork how both Russia and China, in spite of never having been colonial overseas Empires or importing black slaves, and in fact supporting heavily anti-colonial movement in the 20th century, are in fact the ultimate racists.

    The next step is to simply connect today’s Russia and China to Byzantium (the first explicitly, the second implicitly), and voila. The alchemic trick has worked. Now the colonialists are the true progressives, and the anti-colonialists are the real racists.

    Also the secondary layer of connecting mandatory double anal for kids with racism. If you’re against the mandatory double anal, this means you’re a racist too, whereas if you support the double anal, you’re an anti-racist.

    So, if both Russia and China are;
    a) manifestations of Byzantium, and
    b) against mandatory double anal in the school curriculum and pediatrician office
    then this means they were the real slaver all along.

    Just wait. This will be used very soon to provide the “academic theoretical underpinnings” how Africa is “being raped by Byzantine slavers China and Russia”, whereas the colonialists are “trying to nurture Africa by building together through sustainable application of values-driven affirmative evolution of freedom-promoting investment strategies”.

  107. @Bill P
    So the Byzantine emperor chose Scandinavians as his personal elite guard because... They were weak and womanly?

    Maybe he thought the Varangian guard looked so effeminate in comparison to his swarthy eminence that potential assassins would freeze in fear when they saw him in person. That must be the explanation.

    Where do they find the retards who write these papers?

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Joking aside, the Varangian Guard was constituted relatively late in the game, by Basil II around the turn of the millennium. Because of the fraught circumstances in his early reign, he wanted a professional fighting force that was loyal to him and him alone. In a way, this mirrored the motivation of the caliphs creating Turkic slave armies in the Islamic World, but partially because they weren’t slaves, they never posed a threat to state stability in the same way.

    In order to get this force, Basil was willing to marry his sister to the ‘Rus king, Vladimir-a big departure in imperial tradition. The Latin chronicles at the time called Vladimir “Fornicator Immensis”-no translation needed! Basil didn’t give a damn as he was willing to convert to Orthodox Christianity, which Vladimir duly did.

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    @nebulafox

    Apparently the emperor was willing to make a complexion exception for his Norse Varangian Guard, who no doubt had deplorably fair complexions.

  108. So those Byzantine bigots had it coming when they were overrun, defeated and enslaved by the woke, diverse and swarthy Muslim Turks? Makes you wonder why this guy is interested in Byzantium at all!

  109. @Desiderius
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Surprised it took this long.

    If you're going to have federal holidays a day to celebrate the end of slavery beats a month to celebrate distended anuses, necrotic front holes, and barren wombs.

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard, @Hapalong Cassidy

    In the immortal words of Mel Brooks, that may be coming very soon!

  110. This article is confusing.
    Hard to think of White men as effeminate.
    Conquering of the Blacks was so dam easy, by 1900 we took to fighting each other. Or, 1850 (over ownership of Blacks).
    In the process we destroyed our own race. Hence the current ascendency of Blacks.
    Well, we had a pretty good run. May as well bend over to accept the inevitable.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @profnasty

    "May as well bend over to accept the inevitable."

    You go first, show everyone how it's done.

  111. @CCZ
    Newark, New Jersey is erasing the anti-blackness:

    https://twitter.com/supertracpak/status/1405272324694175748

    Replies: @Mike_from_SGV, @Alden, @stillCARealist

    Who’s the woman in the red dress? . The mother of Gianna?

  112. @Agathoklis
    I wish people would stop referring to the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantium; or more accurately, Basileus Romanon or Romanon Politeia as multi-cultural. The education system was thoroughly Greek, where young students were expected to learn large sections of Homer and the Greek Fathers. The bureaucracy was thoroughly Greek. They did not issue edicts in other languages (except at the beginning where some were issued in Latin). The legal system was thoroughly Greek. They did not issue laws in other languages (except right at the beginning where some were issued in Latin). Although, some non-Roman ethnicities existed in the empire like Armenians and Bulgars, if they wanted to engage with the Roman state they had to become Romanised or linguistically, Hellenised.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    It wasn’t multi-cultural before the West fell, either. The ancient world didn’t view race through the same prism we do today. That didn’t mean they were 21st Century “multi-kulti” bien-pensants. Greco-Roman culture was understood to be superior to the rest of the world, end of story.

    Provincials outside of the Hellenistic world all learned Latin and became Romanized as the centuries wore on. By the time the 3rd Century came along, the Latinate “Roman” identity was so strong in the militarized culture of the Balkans in particular that it led to 300 years where the majority of the emperors came from the same provinces, with Justinian-possibly the last native Latin speaker to hold the office-being the last of the bunch.

    In the east, things were different. Greek retained its status as a language, the culture and patterns of civilization that had existed before Rome endured. But that didn’t mean they weren’t Romans, at least by the 2nd Century or so. Certainly by the time Constantinople was built, the Eastern Mediterranean world had been part of the empire for several centuries. Its inhabitants considered themselves as Roman as their Western counterparts. I do think the conception of “Roman” in Byzantium changed so vastly after the 7th Century catastrophe that medieval Byzantium is best understood as another successor state to the empire. But that didn’t mean the Byzantines could not, and did not claim with a straight face to be “Romans”.

    The main difference from the West was that there was a shared Hellenistic culture-at least in Greece, Anatolia, and the urban areas of Egypt, Palestine, and Syria-and a tradition of organized urban life that predated the arrival of the empire. Because of this, the Roman state was able to integrate into pre-existing patterns of government. The cultural interchange was bi-directional, too: Rome was significantly Hellenized during the golden age of its civilization, with this only changing during the 3rd Century. As early as the reign of Claudius, the emperor commends someone for learning “both of our languages”, i.e, Latin *and* Greek.

    In the West, by contrast, most of the conquered areas were inhabited by relatively backward tribal peoples: they naturally adopted Roman ways more uni-directionally than in the East as a result. The only other place in the West where this wasn’t the case was North Africa, and the Romans so thoroughly erased the memory of Carthage that an entirely Latinate culture sprung up.

  113. >By the way, one of the leading companions of Mohammed was a blonde man named Suhayb the Roman.

    I don’t know about that, but there’s little doubt that a lot of the Arab soldiers who invaded in the 630s were former Roman mercenaries. Most of the garrisons they initially encountered in Palestine were staffed by Christian Arabs, for that matter. Arabs had become an increasingly visible part of life in the Roman East over the previous 400 years: that’s part of why their conquests stuck. Crucially, they came from the same theological thought world as late antique Rome. Contrast them to the Mongols, who might as well have come out of the Bronze Age in terms of sophistication, and worshiped a shamanistic, primitive sky deity. They could conquer, but could not absorb. They got absorbed instead, whether by Christians, Muslims, or Chinese culture.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @nebulafox

    It’s fascinating to imagine the American Indians sweeping out of the west into the US as successfully as did the Mongols from the East into the civilized world.

  114. “This poor guy is thrashing about trying to stay relevant.”

    No, that would this post, Mr. Sailer, which is master class in iSteve grievance commentary!

  115. @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    "It took humanity a ridiculous amount of time to come up with the theory of natural selection, which is only 163 years old, which helps explain why thinking in terms of natural selection is still so alien to many in 2021."

    Evolution is a hoax, Sailer. Thinking in terms of Darwinism is more alien than ever because microbiology. Darwinism was much more palatable when cells were simple boring empty sacs. 'Resting phase' was still taught in 1990 - I was there, 10th-grade biology.

    We were created, so find a new metaphysics - viz, Christianity.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    Evolution is a hoax, Sailer. Thinking in terms of Darwinism is more alien than ever because microbiology.

    How so? We just watched the coronavirus evolve into new variants.

  116. @Alden
    When will the idiot intelligentsia mention racial policies of the Empire that replaced the Byzantine Empire, the Turkish Seljuk then the Ottoman Empires.

    The Turks, like the Romans were a slave society. By Turkish Times, the trade of Africans to the Muslim parts of the Mediterranean was heavy. The Arabs, like the Turks used African slave women for sex. And allowed the babies to live.

    The Turks only imported a few castrated African slave boys. But imported vast numbers of African slave women. But there no children of African slave women. Because the babies were either aborted or killed at birth.

    Arab Asian Indian Persian and European visitors all remarked at the many black African slave women out and about doing errands, working and very visible. But none of the mulattos quadroons octoroons seen in every other country that imported black slaves.

    When is some great idiot intellectual historian going to write a new book about how millions of African slave women never produced children in Turkey.

    The answer is never. The Censor General has probably used the covid hoax lock down to prowl through the university libraries to seek out and destroy every boom about the Turkish Empire that mentions slavery.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    When is some great idiot intellectual historian going to write a new book about how millions of African slave women never produced children in Turkey.

    The answer is never. The Censor General has probably used the covid hoax lock down to prowl through the university libraries to seek out and destroy every book about the Turkish Empire that mentions slavery.

    Beat me to it.

    They won’t talk about Arab, Asian or African slavery.

    Even today the North Africans still practice slavery. They buy and sell African immigrants as indentured servants.

    But our MSM is obsessed with talking about White or Christian slavery of the past. Hmmm.

  117. @Kent Nationalist

    I’m not clear on what the Greeks thought the reason was that Ethiopians were so dark. Sometimes they seem to sound as if they assume Ethiopians are just tanned, or that they got so suntanned during their life that the tan became permanent. Or maybe they had a proto-Lamarckian view: their ancestors passed their tans down.

     

    There's a Roman novel written by a Syrian, the Aethiopica, where the woman the hero falls in love with is a white (they use that word) Greek woman, but she turns out to be an Ethiopian princess who turned out white becasue her mother was looking at an image of Venus when she was conceived.

    Wikipedia says that she's supposed to be an albino, but, from my memory of the novel, that is a made-up supposition and not actually the gist of the novel.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethiopica

    Replies: @Rapparee

    A plot element recycled almost unchanged for Tasso’s Jerusalem Delivered.

  118. I’d completely believe my theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful

    .

    Gonna be a tough thesis to defend, then:

    .

  119. @International Jew

    Please don’t defund Byzantine Studies in favor of Emmett Till studies! We Byzantine scholars are still relevant.
     
    And this guy isn't even exactly a Byzantine scholar, he's an art historian. I suppose pretty soon if not already, if you take an art history course in college, then the lecturers drone on about whiteness and transphobia, instead of pointing out mythological or Biblical allusions or explaining the principles of perspective or saying something about the rise of the mercantile class in Flanders.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @John Johnson

    And this guy isn’t even exactly a Byzantine scholar, he’s an art historian. I suppose pretty soon if not already, if you take an art history course in college, then the lecturers drone on about whiteness and transphobia, instead of pointing out mythological or Biblical allusions or explaining the principles of perspective or saying something about the rise of the mercantile class in Flanders.

    You are clearly not George Floyd University material.

    I’m sorry but your application has been rejected.

    Oh and you’re a racist.

  120. @nebulafox
    >By the way, one of the leading companions of Mohammed was a blonde man named Suhayb the Roman.

    I don't know about that, but there's little doubt that a lot of the Arab soldiers who invaded in the 630s were former Roman mercenaries. Most of the garrisons they initially encountered in Palestine were staffed by Christian Arabs, for that matter. Arabs had become an increasingly visible part of life in the Roman East over the previous 400 years: that's part of why their conquests stuck. Crucially, they came from the same theological thought world as late antique Rome. Contrast them to the Mongols, who might as well have come out of the Bronze Age in terms of sophistication, and worshiped a shamanistic, primitive sky deity. They could conquer, but could not absorb. They got absorbed instead, whether by Christians, Muslims, or Chinese culture.

    Replies: @JMcG

    It’s fascinating to imagine the American Indians sweeping out of the west into the US as successfully as did the Mongols from the East into the civilized world.

  121. @CCZ
    Newark, New Jersey is erasing the anti-blackness:

    https://twitter.com/supertracpak/status/1405272324694175748

    Replies: @Mike_from_SGV, @Alden, @stillCARealist

    Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless. All they have to do is sit around and pose… women will come and cuddle up to them.

    This is supposed to be a hero? I would be utterly offended if I were black.

    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @stillCARealist

    Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless.

    He's got a wifebeater on.
    Did he ever have a wife?

    , @Colin Wright
    @stillCARealist

    'Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless. All they have to do is sit around and pose… women will come and cuddle up to them.'

    They got the small head, too. On the other hand, is there a lot of noise? If it's not really loud it's not black.

  122. @nebulafox
    @Bill P

    Joking aside, the Varangian Guard was constituted relatively late in the game, by Basil II around the turn of the millennium. Because of the fraught circumstances in his early reign, he wanted a professional fighting force that was loyal to him and him alone. In a way, this mirrored the motivation of the caliphs creating Turkic slave armies in the Islamic World, but partially because they weren't slaves, they never posed a threat to state stability in the same way.

    In order to get this force, Basil was willing to marry his sister to the 'Rus king, Vladimir-a big departure in imperial tradition. The Latin chronicles at the time called Vladimir "Fornicator Immensis"-no translation needed! Basil didn't give a damn as he was willing to convert to Orthodox Christianity, which Vladimir duly did.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    Apparently the emperor was willing to make a complexion exception for his Norse Varangian Guard, who no doubt had deplorably fair complexions.

  123. Most important statement in the post:

    In other words, this emperor was always out and about doing emperor-stuff outdoors like training his army and thus was tanned, unlike some decadent emperors we could mention who spent all their time lounging indoors.

    In general, Woke intellectuals seem to have more or less forgotten the process of tanning in their obsession with race (which does not exist).

    Modern people in general, nevermind the need to be “woke”, seem to suffer from some kind of racial-retro-pathogen that makes them unable to conceive of the world as it was lived by people in antiquity and it poisons their interpretation of texts and images from antiquity.

    This – isn’t hard:

    1. Almost all male work – of which there was a helluva-lot – was outdoors
    2. There was no such thing as sun block
    3. Almost all female work – was conducted under some matter of covering

    Men – “white” men – were deeply tanned. Women – probably tanned too, but not as much.

    All stop. End.

    Nowadays inland and northerly residing people – I’m guessing – don’t have as much exposure to deep tans. Deep, dark “leathery” tans. Deeply tanned “white” people – are pretty dark. For 1500 years of antiquity – that had to have been the standard, especially among men, so people probably just assumed: this is the “color” most men come in. The shades of darkness Steve suggests of Egyptians for example, were probably barely if at all perceptible, and even darker shades were as Steve suggests just interpreted as “burnt”.

    Bottom line: even if civilized cosmopolitan Mediterranean people perceived themselves as comparatively fair, the perception was probably both weak and not credited much importance.

    • Agree: S. Anonyia
    • Thanks: ic1000
  124. @Bill

    I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces.
     
    Huh? My kids look like me. Even compared to people of my same nationality. If yours don't bear a similar resemblance to you, then a less polite person than I might say something unkind about your wife. Perceptions are relative. I'd bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    In Greek, terms like “womanly” (gynaikias) and “soft” (malthakous) were slurs for effeminate men and for men who slept with men respectively. Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.
     
    Particularly? More like only. "Men who slept with men" in our sense of that phrase was not a category. "Men who got nailed" was a category. Our view of gays as basically normal men who happen to be attracted to other men is a bizarre, new, completely delusional way of thinking about things. It's interesting that he mentions this, though---this other way of thinking about gays that everyone else who thinks about them uses. It's almost a secret. Not the kind of knowledge that we can trust the plebs with.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    Much like biological race, homosexuality as an all-encompassing psychosocial identity is a relatively modern thing. I personally consider someone who bases the cornerstone of their identity on who they like to sleep with pathetic: but then, same with race for me, so…

    In the ancient world, for men at least (ancient writers were a pretty sexist bunch-I don’t think they genuinely cared enough about women to comment on lesbianism too much), it was largely up to personal preference, provided that you obeyed social norms. The reason Hadrian’s sexual life was scandalous was not because he’d be a confirmed homosexual by today’s standards, but because he visibly abandoned women altogether. It didn’t matter if you preferred other men, you were expected to get married to a woman and pop out heirs: marriage in that time and place was about family formation and alliances, not love. But once you did that, your life was your business.

    In the Christian world, things took a different turn. Even without Christianity, the Germanic cultures that hijacked the Western empire tended to have negative views of homosexuality, which heavily influenced Western European cultural norms on homosexuality when coupled with the “Old Testament” leaning flavor of Dark Ages European Christianity.

    But in Byzantium, where Hellenistic culture remained dominant, things were more complex. Imperial laws meant to show what good Christians the emperors were would come out all the time with horrific punishments for homosexuals. This was particularly intense at the times where the Byzantines felt they needed to regain God’s favor: Leo III’s heavily Leviticus influenced Ecloga being a good example. But day-to-day life was a bit more nuanced, at least during the Macedonian era. Just look at the punishments monasteries had for homosexual acts (they were less than heterosexual ones) or why it was frowned upon for teenage boys to be left alone with older men too much (temptation was expected). My takeaway is that homosexual acts were looked at as a sin, but not worse than heterosexual acts outside of marriage. It wasn’t about the impulses you felt, it was whether you could control them or not.

    (Interesting footnote: Dante Aligheri placed sodomites in the 7th circle of hell-way below lust. But in purgatory, the last circle with flames to purge lust has crowds of people running in opposite directions. One group are penitents that committed lustful acts with members of the opposite sex, the others with the same. This is an interesting insight into the conflicted feelings Florence had on homosexuality: a city so notorious for it that “Florenzer” was medieval/Renaissance German slang for “gay”.)

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @nebulafox

    "but then, same with race for me, so…"

    Except that one's identity based on their race goes back a couple millennia. It may have been defined by different words (tribe, ethnicity, etc), but at the heart of it, biological race was a cornerstone. Also, a race is but an extended family, a community with shared characteristics. The Hebrew OT was explicitly meant to show that theirs was a favorite, or "chosen" race of people. Race can encompass several things (e.g. IQ, height, personality traits, etc), while buggery is just that and nothing else. In the uber-individualistic age of which we live, anything can become one's own identity, especially when we've basically lost the sense of community of which our ancestors had.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  125. @RichardTaylor
    Putin tells a Black reporter that they don't want a BLM situation in Russia. And that the US has locked up 400 people and actually shot dead an unarmed woman.

    Have you little CivNats, you actually think this doesn't appeal to White men in America?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEBYU1aGXMA

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Little? You’d best hope we’re not little.

    Putin talking about it both appeals to us and further alienates the rest of the country from us which is why he does it. If we weren’t carrying an empire around on our backs he’d have less incentive to f*ck with us but we do so he does.

    Speaking here to non-Americans he’s also legit attempting to fill the vacuum left by the GAE abandonment of the role of savvy world broker/leader that their predecessors filled for most of the previous four hundred odd years.

  126. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @Ben tillman


    I’ve never heard anything like that from any human.

     

    I hadn't really either before I came here.

    It fits in very well, though, with the widespread Chinese assumption that intelligence is the direct mathematical product of the effort one puts in studying. The whole education system here is built on this belief. This has extreme consequences, both positive and negative. Yes, you get families who 'value education' with the power of religious devotion. It also means there are a lot of unhappy kids who aren't academically talented, and who are pushed to 'study harder' for their entire childhoods.

    Daughter C went through the local education system (she's now at university), and was a very successful student. I long ago lost track of how many times Mrs C and I have been asked for our 'secret' for getting her to study so hard (because how else could she be smart?). It's assumed Mrs C and I developed some kind of educational-alchemical formula that balanced getting her into the 'right' school, plus the 'right' number of hours spent on homework, plus the 'right' tutorial/cram classes, plus the 'right' extracurriculars, plus the 'right' books read for 'leisure', and on and on.

    This isn't to say that HK Chinese people are 'unscientific' in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I'd say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @kicktheroos, @Dr. Weezil

    This isn’t to say that HK Chinese people are ‘unscientific’ in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I’d say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.

    Indeed, they LOVE masks and have for decades.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Dr. Weezil

    What scares East Asians more, infection or public humiliation? All of their cultures are all about avoiding skylining and maintaining superficial perfection. If there were no diseases there would be Asians wearing masks.

  127. @Bill

    I’m guessing that humans always had clan conflicts between extended families, but when people could only get around by walking, it was not that common to confront extended families that were so genealogically/genetically remote from yours that you could tell they were different by a glance at their faces.
     
    Huh? My kids look like me. Even compared to people of my same nationality. If yours don't bear a similar resemblance to you, then a less polite person than I might say something unkind about your wife. Perceptions are relative. I'd bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    In Greek, terms like “womanly” (gynaikias) and “soft” (malthakous) were slurs for effeminate men and for men who slept with men respectively. Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.
     
    Particularly? More like only. "Men who slept with men" in our sense of that phrase was not a category. "Men who got nailed" was a category. Our view of gays as basically normal men who happen to be attracted to other men is a bizarre, new, completely delusional way of thinking about things. It's interesting that he mentions this, though---this other way of thinking about gays that absolutely everyone else who thinks about them uses. It's almost a secret. Not the kind of knowledge that we can trust the plebs with.

    Replies: @Matt Buckalew, @Dissident, @Rohirrimborn

    I’d bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    I grew up in New York City and have Presbyterian cousins in Ulster. I visited my cousins back in 1974. It was apparent to me that they could easily distinguish between Catholics and Protestants on sight. I never asked how they could do this but it was not something I was not capable of doing.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Rohirrimborn

    The Catholics weren’t wearing orange sashes nor banging on lambeth drums. Also, worn knees on their trousers from constant prayer for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. And finally, the Catholics had six or seven kids.
    Sorry, one more: The Catholics had burned lips from trying to blow up schoolbuses.

  128. @Altai

    I’d completely believe this theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.
     
    I mean, there are more strict selection factors for increased body fat and body shape with regards to mass to surface area ratio due to that most unforgiving of environmental pressures, arctic winters.

    Replies: @Anon, @Steve Sailer

    No shit. It’s almost like Steve likes making light hearted joke sometimes. Nice display of Turbo Autism on your part.

  129. anon[109] • Disclaimer says:

    “WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States will soon have a new federal holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the nation.”

    Yes, well who ended it? It sure in hell wasn’t the blacks. So I’m glad to finally have a holiday that commemorates the sacrifices of hundreds of thousand of white men for the purpose of freeing an inferior species from a servitude that said species was incapable of freeing itself from, just because it was the right thing to do.

  130. @Verymuchalive
    @Reg Cæsar

    The influence of the Byzantines on the modern world has been minuscule.

    Wrong.
    The preservation of the Greek and Roman classics. The vast majority came via Byzantium.
    The Orthodox Church.
    Russia.

    Take off your RC blinkers, Reggie, and look at reality.
    Russia is steadily reviving and recovering, gaining great support from its traditions. Your lot, America, are rapidly going down the tube, taking the rest of the West with it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @J.Ross

    Take off your RC blinkers, Reggie, and look at reality.

    That was a joke, buddy, which clearly went over your head. The illustration was included to make that obvious. Epic fail in your case.

    Minuscule is the formal term for “lower-case” script, and the source of the promiscuous and exaggerated usage of the word today. (Minuscules are more than half the height of majuscules.) You assumed I used it in the latter case. Gotcha.

    It’s always amusing to see lower-case Greek used for classical-era concepts such as π. The ancients wrote– carved– like the Flintstones. As for those proto-minuscules, uncials, who had them first, Greeks or Irish?

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Reg Cæsar

    Mea Culpa.
    I should have said: " Frankish Blinkers".
    We Franks are surely going down the tubes, unless God saves us.

  131. “Men who slept with men”

    Not only have they forgotten about tanning, they’ve forgotten the word ‘homosexual.’ Apparently it is almost considered a slur now.

    Race doesn’t exist, and according to their fevered hopes and desires, homosexuals don’t exist because everyone is a little bit gay.

    Always with the projection.

  132. @Dissident
    @Bill



    [From the Washington Post piece that is the basis for Mr. Sailer's post] Malthakos was even a technical term in late antique medicine to pathologize same-gender desire, particularly for men acting as the passive partner in such acts.
     
    Particularly? More like only. “Men who slept with men” in our sense of that phrase was not a category. “Men who got nailed” was a category.
     
    But who were such men "getting nailed" by? Other men, right? Were they ever considered "basically normal men who happen to be attracted to [and bugger] other men"? Can any man whose erotic interest is even predominately in other males (whether men or boys), let alone exclusively, properly be considered normal?

    @Steve Sailer:


    You know, eunuchs weren’t just randomly “assigned male at birth” or they would have to castrate them.
     
    Didn't you mean to write, "or they would not have to castrate them"?

    Replies: @Bill

    But who were such men “getting nailed” by? Other men, right? Were they ever considered “basically normal men who happen to be attracted to [and bugger] other men”? Can any man whose erotic interest is even predominately in other males (whether men or boys), let alone exclusively, properly be considered normal?

    You’re operating inside the modern conception. You’re assuming that the men who did the penetrating exclusively or almost exclusively penetrated other men, that there was a natural kind of man-penetrators. Classicals did not believe this. It’s a weird belief.

    You’re right in a way, though. A man who only wanted to penetrate other men would have seemed weird in Classical Antiquity. Like a man who only wanted to penetrate one-eyed, red-haired, paraplegic women. It would have been seen as a sexual oddity, a fetish, which reflected badly on the one having it. But it wasn’t a thing. It wasn’t seen as a natural kind.

    • Thanks: Dissident
  133. @Reg Cæsar
    @Verymuchalive


    Take off your RC blinkers, Reggie, and look at reality.
     
    That was a joke, buddy, which clearly went over your head. The illustration was included to make that obvious. Epic fail in your case.

    Minuscule is the formal term for "lower-case" script, and the source of the promiscuous and exaggerated usage of the word today. (Minuscules are more than half the height of majuscules.) You assumed I used it in the latter case. Gotcha.

    It's always amusing to see lower-case Greek used for classical-era concepts such as π. The ancients wrote-- carved-- like the Flintstones. As for those proto-minuscules, uncials, who had them first, Greeks or Irish?

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    Mea Culpa.
    I should have said: ” Frankish Blinkers”.
    We Franks are surely going down the tubes, unless God saves us.

  134. @Verymuchalive
    @Reg Cæsar

    The influence of the Byzantines on the modern world has been minuscule.

    Wrong.
    The preservation of the Greek and Roman classics. The vast majority came via Byzantium.
    The Orthodox Church.
    Russia.

    Take off your RC blinkers, Reggie, and look at reality.
    Russia is steadily reviving and recovering, gaining great support from its traditions. Your lot, America, are rapidly going down the tube, taking the rest of the West with it.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @J.Ross

    You’re right except for the verb “came.” Russia never had a Renaissance because Russia was never cut off from Greece and the classics, but Western Europe was effectively cut off from Russia by distance, so Western Europe did have a Renaissance.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @J.Ross

    I should have been more explicit. Copies of such classics as survive largely came to Western and Eastern Europe from the Byzantine Empire, rather than from Moorish Spain or from preservation in Western monasteries.

  135. @Dr. Weezil
    @The Last Real Calvinist


    This isn’t to say that HK Chinese people are ‘unscientific’ in other ways. The educated populace here understands contemporary science better than most Americans, I’d say. And yet the older and deeper beliefs coexist easily. Human nature is complex and inconsistent.
     
    Indeed, they LOVE masks and have for decades.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    What scares East Asians more, infection or public humiliation? All of their cultures are all about avoiding skylining and maintaining superficial perfection. If there were no diseases there would be Asians wearing masks.

  136. @Kent Nationalist

    ike Odysseus, who Homer described as “black skinned” (melanochroous) in the “Odyssey.”
     
    This is a reference to lines 245-250 of book 19 and the adjective is describing Eurybates, a companion of Odysseus, not Odysseus.

    Replies: @keypusher

    It’s clearly applied to Odysseus himself in book 16, line 175. But Athena is basically making him look youthful and vigorous before he reveals himself to Telemachus: she makes him taller, fills in the lines in his face, etc. One translator renders the word as “bronzed;” Fagles refers to her bringing back his ruddy tan. Seems likelier than her turning him into an Ethiopian.

  137. @profnasty
    This article is confusing.
    Hard to think of White men as effeminate.
    Conquering of the Blacks was so dam easy, by 1900 we took to fighting each other. Or, 1850 (over ownership of Blacks).
    In the process we destroyed our own race. Hence the current ascendency of Blacks.
    Well, we had a pretty good run. May as well bend over to accept the inevitable.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “May as well bend over to accept the inevitable.”

    You go first, show everyone how it’s done.

    • Agree: Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    • Disagree: profnasty
  138. @Rohirrimborn
    @Bill

    I’d bet that Hatfields and McCoys had clan characteristics and could tell one another apart.

    I grew up in New York City and have Presbyterian cousins in Ulster. I visited my cousins back in 1974. It was apparent to me that they could easily distinguish between Catholics and Protestants on sight. I never asked how they could do this but it was not something I was not capable of doing.

    Replies: @JMcG

    The Catholics weren’t wearing orange sashes nor banging on lambeth drums. Also, worn knees on their trousers from constant prayer for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. And finally, the Catholics had six or seven kids.
    Sorry, one more: The Catholics had burned lips from trying to blow up schoolbuses.

  139. @nebulafox
    @Bill

    Much like biological race, homosexuality as an all-encompassing psychosocial identity is a relatively modern thing. I personally consider someone who bases the cornerstone of their identity on who they like to sleep with pathetic: but then, same with race for me, so...

    In the ancient world, for men at least (ancient writers were a pretty sexist bunch-I don't think they genuinely cared enough about women to comment on lesbianism too much), it was largely up to personal preference, provided that you obeyed social norms. The reason Hadrian's sexual life was scandalous was not because he'd be a confirmed homosexual by today's standards, but because he visibly abandoned women altogether. It didn't matter if you preferred other men, you were expected to get married to a woman and pop out heirs: marriage in that time and place was about family formation and alliances, not love. But once you did that, your life was your business.

    In the Christian world, things took a different turn. Even without Christianity, the Germanic cultures that hijacked the Western empire tended to have negative views of homosexuality, which heavily influenced Western European cultural norms on homosexuality when coupled with the "Old Testament" leaning flavor of Dark Ages European Christianity.

    But in Byzantium, where Hellenistic culture remained dominant, things were more complex. Imperial laws meant to show what good Christians the emperors were would come out all the time with horrific punishments for homosexuals. This was particularly intense at the times where the Byzantines felt they needed to regain God's favor: Leo III's heavily Leviticus influenced Ecloga being a good example. But day-to-day life was a bit more nuanced, at least during the Macedonian era. Just look at the punishments monasteries had for homosexual acts (they were less than heterosexual ones) or why it was frowned upon for teenage boys to be left alone with older men too much (temptation was expected). My takeaway is that homosexual acts were looked at as a sin, but not worse than heterosexual acts outside of marriage. It wasn't about the impulses you felt, it was whether you could control them or not.

    (Interesting footnote: Dante Aligheri placed sodomites in the 7th circle of hell-way below lust. But in purgatory, the last circle with flames to purge lust has crowds of people running in opposite directions. One group are penitents that committed lustful acts with members of the opposite sex, the others with the same. This is an interesting insight into the conflicted feelings Florence had on homosexuality: a city so notorious for it that "Florenzer" was medieval/Renaissance German slang for "gay".)

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “but then, same with race for me, so…”

    Except that one’s identity based on their race goes back a couple millennia. It may have been defined by different words (tribe, ethnicity, etc), but at the heart of it, biological race was a cornerstone. Also, a race is but an extended family, a community with shared characteristics. The Hebrew OT was explicitly meant to show that theirs was a favorite, or “chosen” race of people. Race can encompass several things (e.g. IQ, height, personality traits, etc), while buggery is just that and nothing else. In the uber-individualistic age of which we live, anything can become one’s own identity, especially when we’ve basically lost the sense of community of which our ancestors had.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    It was about cultural identification, not race in the biological sense that we know it today. The reason the Roman empire lasted as long as it did was because over time, local identities in the provinces were replaced by Roman identity. Even in the Byzantine era, where the identity of "Roman" was a lot more exclusive than it was during the classical empire, who your ancestors were racially didn't matter. What counted was that you worshiped correctly, you spoke Greek, and you behaved in the way civilized, Roman men were expected to behave.

    The people who typically ran into trouble as subjects in the Roman Empire were the ones who couldn't or wouldn't get on board with the Roman way of doing things, the Palestinian Jews being a prominent example.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  140. When Chinese people look at Africans do they know that they aren’t the same people? When Jews look at Gentiles do they know? When the Amish sees the Englisher, when the African sees the Afrikaner right before they slaughter them, do they know?
    For all my life people have told me I am not their people for one reason of another, as a white girl I accepted it, there is no reason to change reality now.
    I would never trust them in any position of authority, such as police, as Congress, because I’m just not whoever they are, President or any other position because I don’t believe anything they do and they are not my people and if you ask them if white people are their people they know that we are not. Just like they know Chinese, Mexican, Japanese etc is not African.Just like the European feels different from Anglo American.

  141. @stillCARealist
    @CCZ

    Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless. All they have to do is sit around and pose... women will come and cuddle up to them.

    This is supposed to be a hero? I would be utterly offended if I were black.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Colin Wright

    Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless.

    He’s got a wifebeater on.
    Did he ever have a wife?

  142. @Verymuchalive
    @Charlotte

    You're right about slavery. In the course of the Imperial Centuries ( AD 610-1071) per Romilly Jenkins, slavery declined into insignificance - probably reserved for captured Muslim POWs who refused to convert.

    Castration was illegal under the Byzantine Empire and the ban was strictly applied. Therefore, all the eunuchs employed under the Empire were of foreign origin, usually from the Caucasus or Persia. They were often performing administrative and other duties when they were captured or obtained by the Empire. The fact that they could not produce children meant they were not a threat to the Emperor or aristocracy. Many were very loyal to the Empire, the Orthodox Church and able servants of the Crown.
    The Armenian-born euneuch and general Narses was one of Justinian's greatest servants.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narses

    Quite often deposed Emperors might have their tongues cut so they could not talk ( often not very effective ), or, more rarely, blinded and sent to a monastery. These were regarded as humane alternatives to execution. Castration was never attempted. It was regarded as being against the Laws of God.

    So, under the earlier Byzantine Empire, the employment of eunuchs in administration and other spheres was regarded as useful. At the same time castration in the Empire was banned and the ban enforced very effectively.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘…So, under the earlier Byzantine Empire, the employment of eunuchs in administration and other spheres was regarded as useful. At the same time castration in the Empire was banned and the ban enforced very effectively.’

    This doesn’t jibe with what I’ve read. To the contrary, often even elite families would have a son castrated. Grotesque as it sounds, since eunuchs were uniquely positioned to rise in the palace hierarchy, it was a means of protecting the family’s standing.

    Perhaps different eras? After all, ‘the Byzantine Empire’, in one form or another, lasted for nearly a millennium. Generalizing about it would seem to be hazardous. What was true of Georgian England wouldn’t really apply to the court of Ethelred the Unready.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    @Colin Wright

    The Byzantine Empire did last a very long time ( AD 330-1453 ). I was referring to the earlier period. For the period AD 610-1071, I relied on Romilly Jenkins, a noted authority. He was explicit about castration being forbidden in the Empire. Accordingly, all eunuchs were of foreign origin, captured in wars or bought or brought from outside the Empire. The practice did decline throughout the period (610-1071)

    In the period after 1071, the number of eunuchs dropped even further. The Empire had a large number of literate people who could perform administrative duties. Increasingly, they were being performed by the entrenched aristocratic families such as the Palaeologi or Comneni. The Empire became more bureaucratic and more fractious, as these aristocrats had more opportunity to engage in "Byzantine" intrigues.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    , @nebulafox
    @Colin Wright

    The Byzantine Empire, of course, is a modern term. To the Byzantines, they were just the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire of late antiquity. They considered themselves no less Roman than their ancestors under Constantine or Julian or Theodosius were.

    I do think the Byzantines tended to conceive their own history more from the founding of Constantinople than from Romulus and Remus as time went on, though. The collapse of the 7th Century involved the Eastern Roman Empire losing 75% of its wealth and being transformed from wounded superpower to beleaguered rump state in a matter of months: and the shock of this resulted not just in massive administrative overhaul, but ideological overhaul, too. The traditional self-conception of the Roman empire as the world-wide bringer of civilization (a role that melded neatly with being the protecter of world-wide Christianity after the 4th century) was simply not tenable after the Yarmouk anymore.

    Strangely enough, the Muslims always called them "the Romans", in stark contrast to Latin Europe. When the Turks finally took Constantinople in 1453, Mehmet the Conqueror gave himself the title "Kayser I Rum", and the Turks still referred to former Byzantine subjects as Romans.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

  143. @stillCARealist
    @CCZ

    Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless. All they have to do is sit around and pose... women will come and cuddle up to them.

    This is supposed to be a hero? I would be utterly offended if I were black.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Colin Wright

    ‘Wow, they captured every stereotype of black men: muscular, lazy, careless, dull, unemployed, shirtless. All they have to do is sit around and pose… women will come and cuddle up to them.’

    They got the small head, too. On the other hand, is there a lot of noise? If it’s not really loud it’s not black.

  144. @kaganovitch
    @Ben tillman

    It reminds me of my dad’s illustration of Lysenkoism

    Lamarckism?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @ben tillman

    Yes, of course, you are right.

    And that was my mistake, not my father’s.

  145. @J.Ross
    @Verymuchalive

    You're right except for the verb "came." Russia never had a Renaissance because Russia was never cut off from Greece and the classics, but Western Europe was effectively cut off from Russia by distance, so Western Europe did have a Renaissance.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive

    I should have been more explicit. Copies of such classics as survive largely came to Western and Eastern Europe from the Byzantine Empire, rather than from Moorish Spain or from preservation in Western monasteries.

  146. @Colin Wright
    @Verymuchalive

    '...So, under the earlier Byzantine Empire, the employment of eunuchs in administration and other spheres was regarded as useful. At the same time castration in the Empire was banned and the ban enforced very effectively.'

    This doesn't jibe with what I've read. To the contrary, often even elite families would have a son castrated. Grotesque as it sounds, since eunuchs were uniquely positioned to rise in the palace hierarchy, it was a means of protecting the family's standing.

    Perhaps different eras? After all, 'the Byzantine Empire', in one form or another, lasted for nearly a millennium. Generalizing about it would seem to be hazardous. What was true of Georgian England wouldn't really apply to the court of Ethelred the Unready.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @nebulafox

    The Byzantine Empire did last a very long time ( AD 330-1453 ). I was referring to the earlier period. For the period AD 610-1071, I relied on Romilly Jenkins, a noted authority. He was explicit about castration being forbidden in the Empire. Accordingly, all eunuchs were of foreign origin, captured in wars or bought or brought from outside the Empire. The practice did decline throughout the period (610-1071)

    In the period after 1071, the number of eunuchs dropped even further. The Empire had a large number of literate people who could perform administrative duties. Increasingly, they were being performed by the entrenched aristocratic families such as the Palaeologi or Comneni. The Empire became more bureaucratic and more fractious, as these aristocrats had more opportunity to engage in “Byzantine” intrigues.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Verymuchalive

    '...In the period after 1071, the number of eunuchs dropped even further. The Empire had a large number of literate people who could perform administrative duties. Increasingly, they were being performed by the entrenched aristocratic families such as the Palaeologi or Comneni. The Empire became more bureaucratic and more fractious, as these aristocrats had more opportunity to engage in “Byzantine” intrigues.'

    I don't have the specific source, so I can't argue, but I was reading perfectly reputable histories, and I very clearly recall the bit about eminent Byzantine families having one son castrated so they could keep their hand in at court. After all, it is striking. It's not like getting the date of some battle wrong or something.

  147. @The Alarmist
    The peoples of the “Byzantine” Empire considered themselves to be Romans until the very end in 1453.

    Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    2

    The peoples of the “Byzantine” Empire considered themselves to be Romans until the very end in 1453.

    Greek peasants called themselves “Romoi” right up into well into the 19th century. Intellectuals and bureaucrats from Athens had to come tell them they were now “Hellenes” after independence.

    • Thanks: The Alarmist
  148. @Altai

    I’d completely believe this theory if Eskimo women were universally acknowledged to be the world’s most beautiful.
     
    I mean, there are more strict selection factors for increased body fat and body shape with regards to mass to surface area ratio due to that most unforgiving of environmental pressures, arctic winters.

    Replies: @Anon, @Steve Sailer

    Right.

    Is there anybody in-between Scandinavians and Eskimos in latitude.

    Laplanders, I guess.

    I don’t know much about them.

    • Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    @Steve Sailer

    Candidate answers:

    The Sámi (or, a.k.a.: as you relate - "Laplanders")
    The Ket and Yeniseian people

    And, it doesn't seem to be treated as an ethnicity, just a language group, but check out the Athabaskans

    , @Yngvar
    @Steve Sailer

    Sámi farmer and wife.
    https://gfx.nrk.no/xHn7tre8Cea8oOoSUNx6hgJE2-Ej-bYp2R2eOW4UKYOA.jpg

  149. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @nebulafox

    "but then, same with race for me, so…"

    Except that one's identity based on their race goes back a couple millennia. It may have been defined by different words (tribe, ethnicity, etc), but at the heart of it, biological race was a cornerstone. Also, a race is but an extended family, a community with shared characteristics. The Hebrew OT was explicitly meant to show that theirs was a favorite, or "chosen" race of people. Race can encompass several things (e.g. IQ, height, personality traits, etc), while buggery is just that and nothing else. In the uber-individualistic age of which we live, anything can become one's own identity, especially when we've basically lost the sense of community of which our ancestors had.

    Replies: @nebulafox

    It was about cultural identification, not race in the biological sense that we know it today. The reason the Roman empire lasted as long as it did was because over time, local identities in the provinces were replaced by Roman identity. Even in the Byzantine era, where the identity of “Roman” was a lot more exclusive than it was during the classical empire, who your ancestors were racially didn’t matter. What counted was that you worshiped correctly, you spoke Greek, and you behaved in the way civilized, Roman men were expected to behave.

    The people who typically ran into trouble as subjects in the Roman Empire were the ones who couldn’t or wouldn’t get on board with the Roman way of doing things, the Palestinian Jews being a prominent example.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @nebulafox

    "It was about cultural identification, not race in the biological sense that we know it today."

    But since during Antiquity the Eurasian/North African/Near East area was basically 99.9% Caucasian (belonged to the white race), cultural identification provided a useful stand-in for differentiating the diverse tribes, ethnics, etc.

    "The reason the Roman empire lasted as long as it did was because over time, local identities in the provinces were replaced by Roman identity."

    So basically, screw the local tribes' cultures, customs, ways of living. All for the glory of the Emperor. Got it. Or, might makes right.



    "Even in the Byzantine era, where the identity of “Roman” was a lot more exclusive than it was during the classical empire, who your ancestors were racially didn’t matter. "

    Again, it wasn't a big deal because 99.9% of Byzantium was racially white. Of course it didn't much matter because in Byzantium the ethnic differences, while noticeable, weren't markedly pronounced.
    Basically, race became a very, very big deal when Sub-Saharans began to mingle with Caucasians in large numbers too big to ignore. This occurred:

    1. During the rise of Islam ca.1000 AD, when many Sub-Saharans were brought back over the Saharan to serve as slaves, or eunuchs for the Sultans' harems.
    2. During the age of Slavery in the New World, when millions upon millions of slaves were brought to both the North and South American continents.


    "The people who typically ran into trouble as subjects in the Roman Empire were the ones who couldn’t or wouldn’t get on board with the Roman way of doing things, the Palestinian Jews being a prominent example."

    Except for their two major rebellions vs Roman authority (70AD, and 133AD), the Jews basically went along with Ceasar's government. They paid taxes, tribute, and in return were permitted some degree of local autonomy. But ultimately they found out that might makes right, and since they didn't have the might of imperial legions at their sails, they ended up wrong.

  150. @Colin Wright
    @Verymuchalive

    '...So, under the earlier Byzantine Empire, the employment of eunuchs in administration and other spheres was regarded as useful. At the same time castration in the Empire was banned and the ban enforced very effectively.'

    This doesn't jibe with what I've read. To the contrary, often even elite families would have a son castrated. Grotesque as it sounds, since eunuchs were uniquely positioned to rise in the palace hierarchy, it was a means of protecting the family's standing.

    Perhaps different eras? After all, 'the Byzantine Empire', in one form or another, lasted for nearly a millennium. Generalizing about it would seem to be hazardous. What was true of Georgian England wouldn't really apply to the court of Ethelred the Unready.

    Replies: @Verymuchalive, @nebulafox

    The Byzantine Empire, of course, is a modern term. To the Byzantines, they were just the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire of late antiquity. They considered themselves no less Roman than their ancestors under Constantine or Julian or Theodosius were.

    I do think the Byzantines tended to conceive their own history more from the founding of Constantinople than from Romulus and Remus as time went on, though. The collapse of the 7th Century involved the Eastern Roman Empire losing 75% of its wealth and being transformed from wounded superpower to beleaguered rump state in a matter of months: and the shock of this resulted not just in massive administrative overhaul, but ideological overhaul, too. The traditional self-conception of the Roman empire as the world-wide bringer of civilization (a role that melded neatly with being the protecter of world-wide Christianity after the 4th century) was simply not tenable after the Yarmouk anymore.

    Strangely enough, the Muslims always called them “the Romans”, in stark contrast to Latin Europe. When the Turks finally took Constantinople in 1453, Mehmet the Conqueror gave himself the title “Kayser I Rum”, and the Turks still referred to former Byzantine subjects as Romans.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @nebulafox

    '...Strangely enough, the Muslims always called them “the Romans”, in stark contrast to Latin Europe. When the Turks finally took Constantinople in 1453, Mehmet the Conqueror gave himself the title “Kayser I Rum”, and the Turks still referred to former Byzantine subjects as Romans.'

    As late as the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, what we would now call a 'Greek' rebel against the Turks rather awkwardly proclaimed on the gallows:

    'A Romios I was born, and a Romios I will die.'

    Stirring, but perhaps not what the narrative required.

  151. @Steve Sailer
    @Altai

    Right.

    Is there anybody in-between Scandinavians and Eskimos in latitude.

    Laplanders, I guess.

    I don't know much about them.

    Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle, @Yngvar

    Candidate answers:

    The Sámi (or, a.k.a.: as you relate – “Laplanders”)
    The Ket and Yeniseian people

    And, it doesn’t seem to be treated as an ethnicity, just a language group, but check out the Athabaskans

  152. @Steve Sailer
    @Altai

    Right.

    Is there anybody in-between Scandinavians and Eskimos in latitude.

    Laplanders, I guess.

    I don't know much about them.

    Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle, @Yngvar

    Sámi farmer and wife.

  153. @nebulafox
    @Colin Wright

    The Byzantine Empire, of course, is a modern term. To the Byzantines, they were just the continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire of late antiquity. They considered themselves no less Roman than their ancestors under Constantine or Julian or Theodosius were.

    I do think the Byzantines tended to conceive their own history more from the founding of Constantinople than from Romulus and Remus as time went on, though. The collapse of the 7th Century involved the Eastern Roman Empire losing 75% of its wealth and being transformed from wounded superpower to beleaguered rump state in a matter of months: and the shock of this resulted not just in massive administrative overhaul, but ideological overhaul, too. The traditional self-conception of the Roman empire as the world-wide bringer of civilization (a role that melded neatly with being the protecter of world-wide Christianity after the 4th century) was simply not tenable after the Yarmouk anymore.

    Strangely enough, the Muslims always called them "the Romans", in stark contrast to Latin Europe. When the Turks finally took Constantinople in 1453, Mehmet the Conqueror gave himself the title "Kayser I Rum", and the Turks still referred to former Byzantine subjects as Romans.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘…Strangely enough, the Muslims always called them “the Romans”, in stark contrast to Latin Europe. When the Turks finally took Constantinople in 1453, Mehmet the Conqueror gave himself the title “Kayser I Rum”, and the Turks still referred to former Byzantine subjects as Romans.’

    As late as the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, what we would now call a ‘Greek’ rebel against the Turks rather awkwardly proclaimed on the gallows:

    ‘A Romios I was born, and a Romios I will die.’

    Stirring, but perhaps not what the narrative required.

  154. @Verymuchalive
    @Colin Wright

    The Byzantine Empire did last a very long time ( AD 330-1453 ). I was referring to the earlier period. For the period AD 610-1071, I relied on Romilly Jenkins, a noted authority. He was explicit about castration being forbidden in the Empire. Accordingly, all eunuchs were of foreign origin, captured in wars or bought or brought from outside the Empire. The practice did decline throughout the period (610-1071)

    In the period after 1071, the number of eunuchs dropped even further. The Empire had a large number of literate people who could perform administrative duties. Increasingly, they were being performed by the entrenched aristocratic families such as the Palaeologi or Comneni. The Empire became more bureaucratic and more fractious, as these aristocrats had more opportunity to engage in "Byzantine" intrigues.

    Replies: @Colin Wright

    ‘…In the period after 1071, the number of eunuchs dropped even further. The Empire had a large number of literate people who could perform administrative duties. Increasingly, they were being performed by the entrenched aristocratic families such as the Palaeologi or Comneni. The Empire became more bureaucratic and more fractious, as these aristocrats had more opportunity to engage in “Byzantine” intrigues.’

    I don’t have the specific source, so I can’t argue, but I was reading perfectly reputable histories, and I very clearly recall the bit about eminent Byzantine families having one son castrated so they could keep their hand in at court. After all, it is striking. It’s not like getting the date of some battle wrong or something.

  155. Another aspect of the history of the Byzantine Empire is that it all gets simplified into…

    1. Yarmouk. No more universal empire.

    2. 1071. Manzikert. End of Great Power days..

    3. 1204. Sack of Constantinople. Not important thereafter.

    Yet, in point of fact, in the twelfth century (after Manzikert) one still has the Byzantine emperor showing up in Syria at the head of an army and deciding who gets what.

    Then, after the fall of Constantinople, one still has Byzantium as a major player in the Aegean basin — along with the Ottomans, Slavs, and various flavors of Frank, of course. They did last until 1453 for a reason. It wasn’t Ottoman benevolence.

  156. @prosa123
    @Balaji

    And when are they going to rename the Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn? In his “The Guide for the Perplexed”, Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.

    Not any time soon. Maimonides Medical Center primarily serves the Hasidic community, and if there's any group in the US that cares less about political correctness than the Hasidim, I can't imagine who they are.

    Replies: @Balaji, @Colin Wright

    ‘…Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.’

    What exactly is the problem here? It actually strikes me as remarkably accurate, given Maimonides’ presumably limited exposure to blacks. After all, they are above monkeys. Let’s be objective about this.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Colin Wright

    Maimonides said the same of Central Asian Turks. He was, like Aristotle and NN Taleb, a Mediterranoid supremacist.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  157. @nebulafox
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    It was about cultural identification, not race in the biological sense that we know it today. The reason the Roman empire lasted as long as it did was because over time, local identities in the provinces were replaced by Roman identity. Even in the Byzantine era, where the identity of "Roman" was a lot more exclusive than it was during the classical empire, who your ancestors were racially didn't matter. What counted was that you worshiped correctly, you spoke Greek, and you behaved in the way civilized, Roman men were expected to behave.

    The people who typically ran into trouble as subjects in the Roman Empire were the ones who couldn't or wouldn't get on board with the Roman way of doing things, the Palestinian Jews being a prominent example.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “It was about cultural identification, not race in the biological sense that we know it today.”

    But since during Antiquity the Eurasian/North African/Near East area was basically 99.9% Caucasian (belonged to the white race), cultural identification provided a useful stand-in for differentiating the diverse tribes, ethnics, etc.

    “The reason the Roman empire lasted as long as it did was because over time, local identities in the provinces were replaced by Roman identity.”

    So basically, screw the local tribes’ cultures, customs, ways of living. All for the glory of the Emperor. Got it. Or, might makes right.

    “Even in the Byzantine era, where the identity of “Roman” was a lot more exclusive than it was during the classical empire, who your ancestors were racially didn’t matter. ”

    Again, it wasn’t a big deal because 99.9% of Byzantium was racially white. Of course it didn’t much matter because in Byzantium the ethnic differences, while noticeable, weren’t markedly pronounced.
    Basically, race became a very, very big deal when Sub-Saharans began to mingle with Caucasians in large numbers too big to ignore. This occurred:

    1. During the rise of Islam ca.1000 AD, when many Sub-Saharans were brought back over the Saharan to serve as slaves, or eunuchs for the Sultans’ harems.
    2. During the age of Slavery in the New World, when millions upon millions of slaves were brought to both the North and South American continents.

    “The people who typically ran into trouble as subjects in the Roman Empire were the ones who couldn’t or wouldn’t get on board with the Roman way of doing things, the Palestinian Jews being a prominent example.”

    Except for their two major rebellions vs Roman authority (70AD, and 133AD), the Jews basically went along with Ceasar’s government. They paid taxes, tribute, and in return were permitted some degree of local autonomy. But ultimately they found out that might makes right, and since they didn’t have the might of imperial legions at their sails, they ended up wrong.

  158. @Colin Wright
    @prosa123

    '...Maimonides wrote of Blacks, “I consider these as irrational beings, and not as human beings; they are below mankind, but above monkeys, since they have the form and shape of man, and a mental faculty above that of the monkey”.'


    What exactly is the problem here? It actually strikes me as remarkably accurate, given Maimonides' presumably limited exposure to blacks. After all, they are above monkeys. Let's be objective about this.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Maimonides said the same of Central Asian Turks. He was, like Aristotle and NN Taleb, a Mediterranoid supremacist.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    But also keep in mind that Maimonides' not very flattering observations of Sub-Saharans were in line with what Arabs wrote of blacks during the same era. And by this time Arabs certainly had more direct contact with Sub-Saharans, and yet they also wrote pretty much the same types of things about them, often in fairly graphic terms. It's almost as if a consensus was building among those who had direct and sustained contact with Sub-Saharans.

  159. @Steve Sailer
    @Colin Wright

    Maimonides said the same of Central Asian Turks. He was, like Aristotle and NN Taleb, a Mediterranoid supremacist.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    But also keep in mind that Maimonides’ not very flattering observations of Sub-Saharans were in line with what Arabs wrote of blacks during the same era. And by this time Arabs certainly had more direct contact with Sub-Saharans, and yet they also wrote pretty much the same types of things about them, often in fairly graphic terms. It’s almost as if a consensus was building among those who had direct and sustained contact with Sub-Saharans.

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