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From The Economic Journal:

I (Don’t) Like You! But Who Cares? Gender Differences in Same-Sex and Mixed-Sex Teams

Leonie Gerhards, Michael Kosfeld
The Economic Journal, Volume 130, Issue 627, April 2020, Pages 716–739, https://doi.org/10.1093/ej/uez067

Abstract

We study the effect of likeability on women’s and men’s team behaviour in a lab experiment. Extending a two-player public goods game and a minimum effort game by an additional pre-play stage that informs team members about their mutual likeability, we find that female teams lower their contribution to the public good in the event of low likeability, while male teams achieve high levels of co-operation irrespective of the level of mutual likeability. In mixed-sex teams, both women’s and men’s contributions depend on mutual likeability. Similar results are found in the minimum effort game. Our results offer a new perspective on gender differences in labour market outcomes: mutual dislikeability impedes team behaviour, except in all-male teams.

Baseball teams seem to get along okay without the players liking each other much, although I can’t think of how to test this question with data. To cite my go-to example, the late 1970s New York Yankees were constant tabloid fodder of public feuds among owner George Steinbrenner, manager Bill Martin, and stars Reggie Jackson and Thurman Munson. (Donald Trump learned a lesson about no-such-thing-as-bad-publicity from Steinbrenner’s 1970s Yankees.) The Los Angeles Dodgers’ brass tried to keep locker room tensions hushed up, but they were, apparently, pretty bad too. But the two teams made it to the 1977 and 1978 World Series.

That history helps explain the otherwise curious vote to give Willie Stargell, age 39 and fat, the National League Most Valuable Player award in 1979 (in a tie with Keith Hernandez). By modern stats, Willie was only the 9th best player on the World Champion Pittsburgh Pirates that year, but he was a good team-building influence in the clubhouse, famously playing “We Are Family” by Sister Sledge on his boombox. Stargell’s MVP award only makes sense as a reaction by sportswriters to the poisonous atmosphere on the previously dominant teams.

The Pirates faded after that season, in part due to cocaine problems. Maybe the team that parties together drops down the standings together?

There have been a lot of players who were disliked by teammates because they let their bad personalities interfere with their play on the field. They usually don’t last that long, at least not with one team. On the other hand, there have been players who were not nice guys who always played at the highest level of individual achievement, such as Ty Cobb and Barry Bonds. Perhaps Reggie Jackson won the most World Series, five, while being obnoxious.

 
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  1. I think Steve couldn’t write a review of, say, Mozart’s “Requiem” without mentioning baseball (or golf) ….

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The other day I was listening to Smetana's "Moldau" when I thought to myself, "Hey, James Horner plagiarized this, as well!"

    Seriously, compare the first parts of both pieces:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G4NKzmfC-Q

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4uamC1ccgY

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Bardon Kaldian


    I think Steve couldn’t write a review of, say, Mozart’s “Requiem” without mentioning baseball (or golf) ….
     
    Leck mich im Arsch.



    https://youtu.be/C78HBp-Youk

  2. • Thanks: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @Charles Pewitt

    Then there was the 1950’s Cubbies trio, Smalley to Miskis to Addison; Addison being the street that runs along the first baseline of the “Friendly Confines”…

  3. Doesn’t seem to apply to rock bands…

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @jamie b.

    I think the economics/property rights/contractual side of rock bands make them trouble. (Also, the drugs.)

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Curle
    @jamie b.

    Dunno,

    Seems they stay together at least as long as most sports team cohorts.

    , @Erik L
    @jamie b.

    Doesn't it? I don't have a good sense of how well or poorly many bands got on but top rock bands often go ten years.

    Those are almost all entirely male bands. Aside from the Bangles it's hard to think of an all female band, let alone one that lasted ten years.

    Mixed male and female? Fleetwood Mac obviously, then Heart and maybe Jefferson Airplane/Starhip? Really seems like top female acts tend to be solo singers who can swap out backing bands

    Replies: @flyingtiger

    , @TWS
    @jamie b.

    Can't think of a single difference between a rock band and a sports team.

  4. Schrödinger’s Sex:

    Problem: Women are just as capable as men if not more capable, even in extremely demanding circumstances such as firefighting and combat. But women are on average smaller and weaker and female cooperation depends on ephemeral and intangible mutual likability, which may in turn depend on obscure factors including pheromones, ovulation, and moonphase.

    Solution: Use trannies in place of cis-women. Declare victory for feminism.

    • Replies: @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”

    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @prosa123

  5. @jamie b.
    Doesn't seem to apply to rock bands...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Curle, @Erik L, @TWS

    I think the economics/property rights/contractual side of rock bands make them trouble. (Also, the drugs.)

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    A open letter from John Lennon to Paul McCartney is currently up for auction. It supports your point.

    https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/john-lennons-brutal-breakup-letter-to-paul-mccartney-you-s-t-all-over-us/

    Fun reading, the letter, apparently typed by Lennon himself, follows:


    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/letter-muzzed-copy.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289c_lg.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289a_lg.jpg

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Unintended Consequence, @Emil Nikola Richard

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Steve Sailer


    I think the economics/property rights/contractual side of rock bands make them trouble.
     
    I was surprised to learn that Bruce Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt were huge fans of the Dave Cark Five growing up. (But why not? If New York is the Fab Four, New Jersey is the DC5.)

    Springsteen did take after Clark in one important respect: his bandmates were, and still are, hirelings. E Street is not level! Most rock (and roll) groups were partnerships, like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and (I presume) Beach Boys.

    It would be interesting to go through all the "Joe and the Blow(s)" groups to see which way each was structured. In the case of the pre-rock big bands, one assumes the bandleader was the boss in every way.
  6. @jamie b.
    Doesn't seem to apply to rock bands...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Curle, @Erik L, @TWS

    Dunno,

    Seems they stay together at least as long as most sports team cohorts.

  7. @Almost Missouri
    Schrödinger's Sex:

    Problem: Women are just as capable as men if not more capable, even in extremely demanding circumstances such as firefighting and combat. But women are on average smaller and weaker and female cooperation depends on ephemeral and intangible mutual likability, which may in turn depend on obscure factors including pheromones, ovulation, and moonphase.

    Solution: Use trannies in place of cis-women. Declare victory for feminism.

    Replies: @Curle

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”

    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Curle


    ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.
     
    That’s gonna result in lots of broken female bodies, esp. as they age.

    Replies: @Feryl

    , @prosa123
    @Curle

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”
    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.


    Tia-Clair Toomey at the recent CrossFit Games.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rju7ZZTL5R8

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Joe862, @Curle

  8. I wonder if a team comprised of high-performing highly-competitive players who don’t particularly like each other might be preferable to a tight-knit team of buddies, due to less forgiveness for failure on the former.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Scottie Pippen didn't think Michael Jordan was a nice guy, but he definitely upped his game to not be on Jordan's bad side.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Fred C Dobbs, @JimDandy, @Hapalong Cassidy

    , @Old Prude
    @JimDandy

    The saying "A happy employee is a productive employee" needs a caveat.

    Unhappy employees are definitely non-productive, but happy employees can slack off a well as pissers and moaners...

  9. If women must like each other to work together effectively in a team effort, imagine what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @Kolya Krassotkin

    Finland's clubgirl prime minister just decreed that no Russian citizens should be allowed tourist visas in Europe. Apparently this is supposed to make Russians support Ukraine more? I don't get her logic at all.

    Replies: @anonymouseperson

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?
     
    CVN-72, the USS Abraham Lincoln is going to be an interesting test case.

    Here is her current commander:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Bauernschmidt

    Be right back, I'm off to Costco to buy popcorn in bulk.

    Replies: @duncsbaby, @Kolya Krassotkin

    , @Anon
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?
     
    Is it just if they dislike each other? According to the study, don’t issues arise if the person they dislike is male?

    In any case, and given the integration of women into the military, the government, and the workplace, it would appear to be important to know what makes a woman like or dislike someone. If we know what determines their likes and dislikes, we can appeal to those tastes and avoid the organizational and political problems.

    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Buzz Mohawk, @Almost Missouri

    , @Brutusale
    @Kolya Krassotkin

    I'm surprised this one hasn't been memory holed.

    https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2018/11/20/norwegian-warship-accident-raises-questions-on-women-in-armed-fo.html

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?
     
    Already happening, no Chinese opponent needed.

    https://theothermccain.com/2018/06/17/tip-pentagon-covering-up-fact-that-female-officers-nearly-sank-navy-ship/

    During the early weeks after the USS Fitzgerald was speared by a lumbering Philippine container ship, it was noteworthy that the captain and a couple of admirals were publicly named, but not the actual officer in charge, the officer of the deck. (OOD) The other person who should have kept the Fitz out of trouble is the person in charge of the combat information center, the Tactical Action Officer. That individual is supposed to be monitoring the combat radar, which can detect a swimmer at a distance of two miles.
    Not until a year later, when the final reports are made public and the guilty parties have been court-martialed, does the truth come out. The OOD was named Sarah, and the Tactical Action Officer was named Natalie, and they weren’t speaking to each other!!! The Tactical Action Officer would normally be in near constant communication with the OOD, but there is no record of any communication between them that entire shift!
     
  10. @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”

    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @prosa123

    ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.

    That’s gonna result in lots of broken female bodies, esp. as they age.

    • Replies: @Feryl
    @Twinkie

    Long before Bill Simmons went woke, he often posted stories regarding female athlete's knee injuries without comment.

  11. Also helps that baseball players interact professionally with each other at pretty significant distances.

    Sort of an extreme case of how men are better at distancing themselves from their feelings than women are.

  12. Our results offer a new perspective on gender differences in labour market outcomes: mutual dislikeability impedes team behaviour, except in all-male teams.

    Someone (not me), might interpret this as saying a “no bitches allowed” policy is imperative to success in any field.

  13. Anonymous[315] • Disclaimer says:

    You see this in the corporate world. Guys will hate each other but still manage to work together professionally to accomplish tasks and get the job done well. Women on the other hand will get into endless drama that interferes with actual work.

    From the great Aaron Eckhart movie In the Company of Men:

  14. Guys don’t have to like each other because teams are comprised of people with defined roles/jobs. You are doing your job, not a favor.

    Women don’t naturally do teams. Everything is give and take for them.

    So for guys it’s either do job/don’t do job, whereas for women it’s do for/don’t do for. Do job is impersonal, do for is not.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    @Bill P

    Right, when players are asked about controversial players a typical response is, "I don't care as long as he does his job." Back when I followed pro basketball I heard this explained about the early 2000s Portland Trail Blazers teams. They went in a few seasons from nearly winning the Western Conference to totally imploding because close to half the roster was crazy, led by Rasheed Wallace. The explanation was when you have one crazy guy it is easier to keep him in line because no one reinforces the crazy behavior at two guys it gets harder but is still possible. Beyond two, you don't have a chance.

    Replies: @Bill P

  15. Women are thought to (or known to) have in general higher levels of “sociability” meaning more attuned to things like communication, likability, cooperation and emotional bonding.

    On the other hand, groups of females are known to have almost instant dislike of one another (as individuals) for reasons which men find nearly unknowable.

    Men tend to prioritize successful performance and execution of tasks much more than emotional bonding or admiration of character traits.

    As some level, women of comparable age levels (as in teams) seem competitive for male attention even if this is not objectively reasonable (being in a stable relationship, etc. ). Women appear to regard others using some prior female experience “template” where “she reminds me of XXX” who was a bitch, or dishonest, etc. Or traits from other female family members (mother, sister, etc.) which they have never forgiven.

    Men are generally less emotionally open and often sparse with nonessential communication. You cooperate with teammates even when they are jerks, or have traits you don’t like.

    Men are from Mars, women from Venus.

    This is why “trans” is usually a horrible failure. Not always, but it seems many have unreachable expectations which cannot be overcome with hormones or surgery.

  16. I think that baseball teams would require the least amount of team-camaraderie out of the 5 major sports (baseball, basketball, American football, soccer, and ice hockey). Why? Because baseball is largely individualistic—hitting is a solo endeavor, pitchers don’t have much to do with non-catchers, and most fielders don’t need to be in sync with one another to catch a ball or throw it to the correct base. Certainly, pitchers and catchers need to have a bond, and double play combinations (shortstop-second basemen) seem to need to be on the same wavelength, but largely it wouldn’t matter if the DH hates the center fielder or the third baseman can’t stand the catcher, so long as they’re not beign violent in the locker room or doing evil stuff like sleeping with someone’s wife (e.g. Manny Ramirez).

    Football players could also survive lack of camaraderie if the players aren’t on the field at the same time most of the time, i.e. a running back and linebacker who dislike each other, or a third-down back and a first-string back. But the exception would be the quarterback—if he doesn’t like you, you’re likely toast, unless you happen to be Ray Lewis and run the defense (and commit murder).

    In basketball, ice hockey, and soccer, where star players tend to weigh more heavily on team performance than the other two, such stars tend to be the de facto captains/leaders. Thus, if you have a problem with the big man, the team and the management will take the star’s side over you, since his performance is largely the biggest difference in a team’s wins and losses.

    And it goes like that down the pecking order — e.g. the 6th man off the bench in basketball has less power than the 5th starter, so if those two get into it the 6th man will be gone. Thus, men in those sports either grudgingly shut up about their dislike of guys higher up for the sake of \$\$, or else become vocal and get tossed off the team.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Achmed E. Newman, @Emil Nikola Richard, @AnotherDad

  17. Men generally keep their noses out of other men’s lives. What women consider shallow regarding male relationships – men bond over sports, or jobs, or hobbies – is the way we like it.

    And men are FUN. We’re not fishing for reasons to eventually hate one another. We want to have a couple of drinks and tell a couple of stories.

    That’s why women don’t want their own stuff … they want to infiltrate and ruin men’s stuff. When we socialize, we’re just having too much damn fun.

    • Agree: R.G. Camara
    • Thanks: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Up2Drew

    Agreed. My wife doesn't like working with women. Unfortunately, they're about 90% of the employees there.

  18. [do not publish]
    Steve, you need to add a hyphen in your header for sense (all-male)

    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    @Meretricious


    [do not publish]
     
    [do not bother telling steve not to publish a comment]
  19. The 1970s Dodgers got along fine despite some dust ups like the one involving star players Steve Garvey and Don Sutton.

    The Swingin’ A’s were always fighting. Reggie Jackson vs. Billy North, Jackson vs. Mike Epstein, and John Odom threw down with Vida Blue or someone else if I am not mistaken.

    Who was that backup quarterback that Roger Staubach had a problem with back in the day? Randy White threw Hollywood Henderson around like a rag doll.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Trinity

    Rollie Fingers vs Blue Moon Odom. Blue Moon made a crack about fingers's wife. Happened right before game 1 of the '74 WS.

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @Trinity

    "The Swingin' A's were always fighting."

    And sneaky Campy Campaneris was always scheming.

    , @David In TN
    @Trinity

    The backup QB that Roger Staubach "had a problem with" was Clint Longley. They had a fight during the 1976 training camp. Next day, Longley sucker-punched Staubach in the locker room. Longley then ran away, had his bags packed.

  20. This research sounds all well and good but I’d also consider some other configurations. For instance, Gay males often interact in more stereotypically female ways. Would an all male team of homosexuals or mixed gay and straight get similar results. I doubt it. Another consideration might be ethnicity. Are all male teams still effective when team members have different cultures? I’ve observed some marked personality differences across cultures. Some males seem like they’d prefer to fight than get any work done. Of course, I’m a female so my observations will have been when I was part of the group. Perhaps insecure males have trouble being subordinate when women are watching.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Unintended Consequence


    Are all male teams still effective when team members have different cultures?
     
    Not only that. It would be interesting to know whether the finding of robust male cooperation (despite not liking each other) replicated across ethnicities. Are the men of some races more cooperative than the men of other races?
    , @Almost Missouri
    @Unintended Consequence


    ay males often interact in more stereotypically female ways. Would an all male team of homosexuals or mixed gay and straight get similar results. I doubt it.
     
    Agree. This was among the reasons that the Sec. Def. Colin Powell said that "homosexuality is inconsistent with military service", though perhaps had he stated the case more definitely, the Poz wouldn't be so advanced in the armed services today.
  21. @R.G. Camara
    I think that baseball teams would require the least amount of team-camaraderie out of the 5 major sports (baseball, basketball, American football, soccer, and ice hockey). Why? Because baseball is largely individualistic---hitting is a solo endeavor, pitchers don't have much to do with non-catchers, and most fielders don't need to be in sync with one another to catch a ball or throw it to the correct base. Certainly, pitchers and catchers need to have a bond, and double play combinations (shortstop-second basemen) seem to need to be on the same wavelength, but largely it wouldn't matter if the DH hates the center fielder or the third baseman can't stand the catcher, so long as they're not beign violent in the locker room or doing evil stuff like sleeping with someone's wife (e.g. Manny Ramirez).

    Football players could also survive lack of camaraderie if the players aren't on the field at the same time most of the time, i.e. a running back and linebacker who dislike each other, or a third-down back and a first-string back. But the exception would be the quarterback---if he doesn't like you, you're likely toast, unless you happen to be Ray Lewis and run the defense (and commit murder).

    In basketball, ice hockey, and soccer, where star players tend to weigh more heavily on team performance than the other two, such stars tend to be the de facto captains/leaders. Thus, if you have a problem with the big man, the team and the management will take the star's side over you, since his performance is largely the biggest difference in a team's wins and losses.

    And it goes like that down the pecking order --- e.g. the 6th man off the bench in basketball has less power than the 5th starter, so if those two get into it the 6th man will be gone. Thus, men in those sports either grudgingly shut up about their dislike of guys higher up for the sake of $$, or else become vocal and get tossed off the team.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    @Steve Sailer

    Jim Jackson denies the story without really explaining what happened. Jason Kidd claims he never met her let alone dated her. This video is a good explanation of what happened. Most of their problems were related to bad coaching and a lack of veteran leadership on the team. They possibly feuded over another woman at one point though. Braxton played up the rumors to help sell an album which made it worse.

    https://sportscollectiblesnetwork.com/jason-kidds-beef-with-jim-jackson-involved-jamal-mashburn-and-a-big-toni-braxton-myth/

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @Steve Sailer

    That's hilarious!

    Nina, of Ninety-nine Luft Balloons fame, well, different story.

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Steve Sailer

    I have forgotten the guy's name but there was a Cleveland Cavalier who LeBron James got exiled because he was dating James' mother.

    That guy set the standard in chutzpah.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Anon

    , @AnotherDad
    @Steve Sailer


    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.
     
    Don't believe it for a second.

    Nothing wrong with Toni Braxton, but not exactly Briseis. And Briseis herself wasn't really the issue.

    Disrespect relating to women can be a real issue breaking cooperation amongst men. But serious men do not get so goo-goo eyed over just some girl per se, that they fail to do the necessary. (There are always more fish in the ocean.)

    Replies: @Anonymous

  22. “That history helps explain the otherwise curious vote to give Willie Stargell, age 39 and fat, the National League Most Valuable Player award in 1979 (in a tie with Keith Hernandez). By modern stats, Willie was only the 9th best player on the World Champion Pittsburgh Pirates that year”

    Actually, this was MLB’s way of belatedly honoring a well respected player’s career, somewhat akin to the Lifetime Achievement award in Hollywood (Stargell was inducted first ballot into the HOF). In 1971, on the WS Champion Pirates, Stargell led the NL in HR’s and RBI’s, but lost the MVP to batting champion Joe Torre. Stargell also had a stellar year in 1973, but came up short. Ironically in his ghost-written aimed at kids book on batting fundamentals, Jackson stated that he thought that Stargell had a better batting line in ’73 than he did (Jackson was the AL’s MVP that year).
    So the point being that MLB at times has a way of even-ing things out.
    e.g. HOF NY CF Mickey Mantle lost the MVP in ’60 & ’61 to teammate Roger Maris, and so he won the MVP in ’62 (one of his weakest statistical yrs).

    ‘To cite my go-to example, the late 1970s New York Yankees were constant tabloid fodder of public feuds among owner George Steinbrenner”

    Ironic that you would chose NY of the late ’70’s, whereas the template for constant feuds, even more than Steinbrenner’s teams were the early ’70’s teams of OAK owner Charles Finley. Finley, Manger Dick Williams,…and Reggie Jackson. Reggie and teammate Bill North fought each other in the locker room. HOF P closer Rollie Fingers and Blue Moon Odom got in a punching match before the start of the ’74 WS (vs LA).

    Finley’s teams were the first to really go public in the post-Ball Four era, where dirty laundry was aired publicly all the time.

    Even Steinbrenner didn’t try to fire/replace an infielder during the WS for making a couple of errors that cost the team the game.

    OAK had constant fighting among teammates, some not speaking to one another for yrs, but all united vs their cheapskate owner Charles Finley.

    The stylish ’70’s trend of mustaches/beards which OAK started, was mainly due to Finley offering to pay \$300 bucks to any player who wore facial hair on opening day in ’72. Reggie Jackson was the first, on his own, to sport a beard. When Finley’s threats and orders to shave didn’t faze Jackson, Finley offered any player \$300 if they grew facial hair, in order to psychologically show up Jackson, but the tactic backfired.

    As far as the all time award for dysfunctional teams, it has to go to OAK of the 1970-75 era.

    Two future HOFers, Jackson and Catfish Hunter, signed with NY after many seasons in OAK.

    The only difference between Finley and Steinbrenner, was that unlike the tightwad Finley, Steinbrenner was always willing to pay (even overpay) free agents, all he asked was that the players produce. And in ’77 and ’78, they did.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Steve's point is that Donald Trump definitely had George Steinbrenner as an influence, while Trump and Finley never crossed paths. As for Finley, his biggest contribution to pop culture was his hiring of a young MC Hammer as Oakland A's batboy and to be his eyes and ears on the ground when he was in Chicago. Reggie Jackson noticed that the new batboy looked like Hank Aaron, and so gave him the nickname of Hammer.

    https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/private/t_2x1/t_w1536/mlb/lqgvr61h6pji2mdp81go.jpg

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  23. @JimDandy
    I wonder if a team comprised of high-performing highly-competitive players who don't particularly like each other might be preferable to a tight-knit team of buddies, due to less forgiveness for failure on the former.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Old Prude

    Scottie Pippen didn’t think Michael Jordan was a nice guy, but he definitely upped his game to not be on Jordan’s bad side.

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    When Jordan came back to the Bulls after his retirement-hiatus* to baseball, he let it be known that he thought he needed to develop a playing relationship with another player the way he'd had with Scottie Pippen before his retirement-hiatus*.

    Which was a weird thing to say, since Pippen was still on the Bulls at the time, and still playing well. Even as a kid, it seemed like a slap in the face and the beginning of drama. But no drama came, Jordan went on with Pippen to win more titles and solidify himself as the greatest player ever.

    *suspension for gambling.

    , @Fred C Dobbs
    @Steve Sailer

    I think men are more inclined to say "Ohh yeah? I'll show you, you bastard!" when feeling slighted by coaches/teammates etc. Vengeance is a powerful motivator. Women will continue the catfights......forever.

    , @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    I agree. But there's even more context to it. Jordan was a sort of diabolical psychological manipulator. He was known for taking the superstar from opposing teams out to dinner the night before games and forging a real bond with them and then come gametime took them off guard with total ruthlessness. In-house, he had Pippen psysched out to such an extent that he submissively regarded Jordan as his superstar big brother, as opposed to his peer. Pippen absolutely was Jordan's peer. Absolutely "in the same league" as Jordan. A Top 50 all-time player who almost won it all with the Bulls without Jordan.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Steve Sailer

    I’m sure that Jordan and Pippen didn’t particularly like Dennis Rodman either, but everyone knew that those two were the only ones with the combined willpower to keep Rodman’s craziness in check.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  24. @Bill P
    Guys don't have to like each other because teams are comprised of people with defined roles/jobs. You are doing your job, not a favor.

    Women don't naturally do teams. Everything is give and take for them.

    So for guys it's either do job/don't do job, whereas for women it's do for/don't do for. Do job is impersonal, do for is not.

    Replies: @Barnard

    Right, when players are asked about controversial players a typical response is, “I don’t care as long as he does his job.” Back when I followed pro basketball I heard this explained about the early 2000s Portland Trail Blazers teams. They went in a few seasons from nearly winning the Western Conference to totally imploding because close to half the roster was crazy, led by Rasheed Wallace. The explanation was when you have one crazy guy it is easier to keep him in line because no one reinforces the crazy behavior at two guys it gets harder but is still possible. Beyond two, you don’t have a chance.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Barnard

    A lot of black guys are raised without a man in the house, so they are more likely to develop effeminate personality traits such as histrionic behavior, easily wounded pride, etc. The nature of basketball itself, which is a "showy" game, probably reinforces this somewhat.

    Football, on the other hand, is more workmanlike. Showy primadonnas get hit hard in practice, which tends to knock some sense into them. Also, jobs/roles are very well-defined in football.

    Sports that highlight female excellence involve give and take and/or showmanship in conjunction with self-discipline -- not teamwork. Gymnastics, tennis, diving, skiing, skating and track and field come to mind. Women are pretty awesome but they just don't do teams very well, and for solid reasons.

    Male teamwork is older than the human species. It doesn't define us but it certainly enhances our abilities. But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @J.Ross, @Hibernian

  25. Joe DiMaggio has the second most rings, 9, of all time behind Yogi Berra and was well known among teammates as a sour loner particularly off-field. He wasn’t as famously as much of a asshole as Ty Cobb, Roger Hornsby, or Ted Williams, but he was pretty well disliked by his teammates. All those championships, the mystique and playing for the Yankees helped shield him from most of the wider public having as poor of a reputation as he had among players, though he also wasn’t quite as aggressively a jerk as the others I mentioned before.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    @Alyosha

    Williams was hated by the Boston press, not his teammates. And MLB AL pitchers.

    https://www.amazon.com/Teammates-Portrait-Friendship-David-Halberstam/dp/0786888679

    Replies: @Alyosha

  26. As the great Ben Franklin once said, “there are but 3 guarantees in life, death, taxes, and chicks fighting.” We’re seeing more and more situations where organizations are run almost exclusively by women. Usually the top few spots are occupied by cartoonishly assertive types who are hated by all the other women. Turnover is crazy high.

    Dalrock’s Law of Feminism
    “Feminism is the assertion that men are evil and naturally want to harm women, followed by pleas to men to solve all of women’s problems.”

  27. @Kolya Krassotkin
    If women must like each other to work together effectively in a team effort, imagine what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?

    Replies: @AndrewR, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon, @Brutusale, @Almost Missouri

    Finland’s clubgirl prime minister just decreed that no Russian citizens should be allowed tourist visas in Europe. Apparently this is supposed to make Russians support Ukraine more? I don’t get her logic at all.

    • Replies: @anonymouseperson
    @AndrewR

    I always thought Russia was a part of Europe. Silly me.

  28. Allegedly Pete Rose and Johnny Bench didn’t like each other. Who can blame Bench, Rose was an ass.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @Trinity

    On the Reds, Tony Perez served as the Reasonable Guy to keep things cool. Sal Bando did so for the A's and Chris Chambliss was the same on the Yankees. Every group of men working together needs someone like that.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Redneck farmer
    @Trinity

    A lot of Cincinnati fans believe the opposite. They'd go to talk to Bench, but wound up talking to Rose, who would actually talk to them.

    Replies: @Trinity

  29. @Trinity
    The 1970s Dodgers got along fine despite some dust ups like the one involving star players Steve Garvey and Don Sutton.

    The Swingin' A's were always fighting. Reggie Jackson vs. Billy North, Jackson vs. Mike Epstein, and John Odom threw down with Vida Blue or someone else if I am not mistaken.

    Who was that backup quarterback that Roger Staubach had a problem with back in the day? Randy White threw Hollywood Henderson around like a rag doll.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @SunBakedSuburb, @David In TN

    Rollie Fingers vs Blue Moon Odom. Blue Moon made a crack about fingers’s wife. Happened right before game 1 of the ’74 WS.

    • Thanks: Trinity
  30. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Achmed E. Newman, @Emil Nikola Richard, @AnotherDad

    Jim Jackson denies the story without really explaining what happened. Jason Kidd claims he never met her let alone dated her. This video is a good explanation of what happened. Most of their problems were related to bad coaching and a lack of veteran leadership on the team. They possibly feuded over another woman at one point though. Braxton played up the rumors to help sell an album which made it worse.

    https://sportscollectiblesnetwork.com/jason-kidds-beef-with-jim-jackson-involved-jamal-mashburn-and-a-big-toni-braxton-myth/

  31. Your comment may go over the head of some.

    You don’t mention what it has to do with Steve’s post, which is that Tinker, Evers (pronounced “EE-vers,” BTW) and Chance despised each other. Tinker and Evers weren’t even on speaking terms for most of their time as Cubs teammates. And Chance, after becoming player manager, once suspended Tinker for the remainder of a season for using profanity, though he was overruled by ownership.

    Nevertheless, the Cubs enjoyed great success during their joint tenure.

  32. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Achmed E. Newman, @Emil Nikola Richard, @AnotherDad

    That’s hilarious!

    Nina, of Ninety-nine Luft Balloons fame, well, different story.

  33. @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Scottie Pippen didn't think Michael Jordan was a nice guy, but he definitely upped his game to not be on Jordan's bad side.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Fred C Dobbs, @JimDandy, @Hapalong Cassidy

    When Jordan came back to the Bulls after his retirement-hiatus* to baseball, he let it be known that he thought he needed to develop a playing relationship with another player the way he’d had with Scottie Pippen before his retirement-hiatus*.

    Which was a weird thing to say, since Pippen was still on the Bulls at the time, and still playing well. Even as a kid, it seemed like a slap in the face and the beginning of drama. But no drama came, Jordan went on with Pippen to win more titles and solidify himself as the greatest player ever.

    *suspension for gambling.

    • Troll: ScarletNumber
  34. @Up2Drew
    Men generally keep their noses out of other men's lives. What women consider shallow regarding male relationships - men bond over sports, or jobs, or hobbies - is the way we like it.

    And men are FUN. We're not fishing for reasons to eventually hate one another. We want to have a couple of drinks and tell a couple of stories.

    That's why women don't want their own stuff ... they want to infiltrate and ruin men's stuff. When we socialize, we're just having too much damn fun.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Agreed. My wife doesn’t like working with women. Unfortunately, they’re about 90% of the employees there.

  35. @Kolya Krassotkin
    If women must like each other to work together effectively in a team effort, imagine what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?

    Replies: @AndrewR, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon, @Brutusale, @Almost Missouri

    How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    CVN-72, the USS Abraham Lincoln is going to be an interesting test case.

    Here is her current commander:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Bauernschmidt

    Be right back, I’m off to Costco to buy popcorn in bulk.

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Bauernschmidt has a man-jaw, a man-neck and crazy eyes. A fine combination.

    Where's my MAN OF UNZ secret society badge?

    , @Kolya Krassotkin
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Re: Amy Bauernschmidt

    She used to be a man, right?

  36. The problem I had with the movie “Midway” was the silly interpersonal shit. Presumably that was there to keep girlfriends from walking out of the movie. Just sink the Jap ships, all right?

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @The Problem with Midway

    "The problem I had with the movie 'Midway'"

    Your single issue focus is admirable. Can I rent your attention span for a week?

    , @J.Ross
    @The Problem with Midway

    You know, the guy whose account inspired the mini-series Das Boot (which is a miniseries and not a movie) disliked the hyper-emotionality of the performances, even though that angst was probably part of how Wolfgang Petersen got away with showing WWII German protagonists.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  37. I don’t need to like someone to work with them to get the job done. Sometimes things go down because people like each other too much and are unwilling to tell someone he is screwing things up.

  38. I seem to remember Charles Barkley saying that his Phoenix Suns team (finished second to the Bulls in Jordan’s second title year) had clear social divides where some groups within the team preferred to associate with each other, but they all came together to get the job done.

    I also suspect that when a team is winning there’s a lot more tolerance for conflict. Team chemistry becomes an issue when looking for a cause to blame. Lots of guys can not like each other but they do OK until they lose. I think the early 2010s Seahawks were that way—Richard Sherman seemed to turn on Russell Wilson after the infamous Super Bowl loss to the Patriots, but didn’t mind the latter’s rah-rah company man schtick when they won the year before.

  39. @Curle
    @Almost Missouri

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”

    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.

    Replies: @Twinkie, @prosa123

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”
    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.

    Tia-Clair Toomey at the recent CrossFit Games.

    • LOL: AnotherDad
    • Replies: @Nicholas Stix
    @prosa123

    I seem to see a correlation between female juicers and small breasts.

    Nicholas Stix, Ph.D., boobology
    UCLA (the University at the Corner of Lenox Ave)

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @The Wild Geese Howard

    , @Joe862
    @prosa123

    Anyone who thinks that's natural is special. We know that male hormones increase athletic performance. And it could be natural. There are going to be outliers but they don't disprove the rule. They demonstrate the rule by being remarkable.

    , @Curle
    @prosa123

    CrossFit games. Forty men and forty women worldwide, at least until recently when the numbers were increased because, it appears, the CrossFit copyright holder needs $$ from participation fees. Apparently, revenues are down.

    Now you know what forty women worldwide on steroids (?) look like.

  40. “(Donald Trump learned a lesson about no-such-thing-as-bad-publicity from Steinbrenner’s 1970s Yankees.)”

    I thought Trump and Steinbrenner are the same guy, even though Steinbrenner allegedly died. Has anyone ever seen them in the same room together?

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Nicholas Stix

    I personally know two WASP businessmen NYC born and bred with the same blustery, blunt personalities as Trump and Steinbrenner. It is what it is.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    , @kaganovitch
    @Nicholas Stix

    Has anyone ever seen them in the same room together?

    Here you go. Happier times.
    https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2019_40/3036786/191003-donald-trump-george-steinbrenner-ew-412p.jpg

  41. @Trinity
    Allegedly Pete Rose and Johnny Bench didn't like each other. Who can blame Bench, Rose was an ass.

    Replies: @njguy73, @Redneck farmer

    On the Reds, Tony Perez served as the Reasonable Guy to keep things cool. Sal Bando did so for the A’s and Chris Chambliss was the same on the Yankees. Every group of men working together needs someone like that.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @njguy73

    Oakland A's & Oakland Raiders were certainly made for a town like Oakland in the 1970s. Marv Hubbard and Sal Bando won some sort of baseball/football player golf tournament I believe. Of course Oakland isn't what it used to be. A video on YouTube of a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert in Oakland in '76 or '77, shows a sea of White people, lots of slim good looking girls with no tattoos , enjoying Skynyrd bust out an awesome version of "Freebird" with a huge Confederate flag on display behind the band. Imagine this happening today? Imagine a concert loaded with slim White girls, no tattoos, no purple hair?

  42. @prosa123
    @Curle

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”
    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.


    Tia-Clair Toomey at the recent CrossFit Games.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rju7ZZTL5R8

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Joe862, @Curle

    I seem to see a correlation between female juicers and small breasts.

    Nicholas Stix, Ph.D., boobology
    UCLA (the University at the Corner of Lenox Ave)

    • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
    @Nicholas Stix

    "Nicholas Stix, Ph.D., boobology UCLA"


    Do you receive funding from the Pritzker Foundation?

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Nicholas Stix


    I seem to see a correlation between female juicers and small breasts.
     
    Well, it's simply logical that her giant roid gut is going to make her chest look small.

    That's simply part of the PED game my good fellow.

  43. Anonymous[130] • Disclaimer says:

    Amusing bit from the 1982 film Personal Best

    Terry Tingloff (played by Scott Glenn): All right, one thing ya gotta understand: I could’ve been a man’s coach. Backfield coach, Oregon State: I had the job, I had the job, I actually had the job. You understand? I had the job. Ah, well. Coach of the year. I was coach of the year last year. You know what that means when you’re a womens’ coach? Jack shit. I mean I could have coached football. Do you actually think that Chuck Knoll has to worry that Franco Harris is gonna cry ’cause Terry Bradshaw won’t talk to him? – Hmm? – Jack Lambert can’t play because Mel Blount hurt his feelings, that Lynn Swann is pregnant, that Rocky Bleier forgot his Tampax. Ah, fuck!

    • Thanks: David In TN
    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Anonymous

    I was thinking of that scene with the Scott Glenn character when I saw this thread.

  44. @prosa123
    @Curle

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”
    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.


    Tia-Clair Toomey at the recent CrossFit Games.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rju7ZZTL5R8

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Joe862, @Curle

    Anyone who thinks that’s natural is special. We know that male hormones increase athletic performance. And it could be natural. There are going to be outliers but they don’t disprove the rule. They demonstrate the rule by being remarkable.

  45. I wonder if the Yankees of the early 70s got along a little too well. Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich swapped wives back in 72 and the team was pretty bad.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Rich

    The Yankees were more mediocre than bad in the early 70s, but since only 4 teams made the playoffs back then those teams are remembered as being worse than they really were. The wife-swap took place in 73 and the Yankees finished 80-82 that year. The next year they would have been the first Wild Card at 89-73, but as the Orioles won 91 that year they simply went home.

    Replies: @Rich, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  46. @Bardon Kaldian
    I think Steve couldn't write a review of, say, Mozart's "Requiem" without mentioning baseball (or golf) ....

    Replies: @Stan Adams, @Reg Cæsar

    The other day I was listening to Smetana’s “Moldau” when I thought to myself, “Hey, James Horner plagiarized this, as well!”

    Seriously, compare the first parts of both pieces:

    [MORE]

    • Agree: Paul Jolliffe
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Stan Adams


    The other day I was listening to Smetana’s “Moldau”
     
    Ain’t nothing wrong with Moldau poasting

    https://www.unz.com/jfreud/whit-stillman-and-the-philosophy-of-dance/#comment-5032710
  47. @njguy73
    @Trinity

    On the Reds, Tony Perez served as the Reasonable Guy to keep things cool. Sal Bando did so for the A's and Chris Chambliss was the same on the Yankees. Every group of men working together needs someone like that.

    Replies: @Trinity

    Oakland A’s & Oakland Raiders were certainly made for a town like Oakland in the 1970s. Marv Hubbard and Sal Bando won some sort of baseball/football player golf tournament I believe. Of course Oakland isn’t what it used to be. A video on YouTube of a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert in Oakland in ’76 or ’77, shows a sea of White people, lots of slim good looking girls with no tattoos , enjoying Skynyrd bust out an awesome version of “Freebird” with a huge Confederate flag on display behind the band. Imagine this happening today? Imagine a concert loaded with slim White girls, no tattoos, no purple hair?

  48. @Trinity
    The 1970s Dodgers got along fine despite some dust ups like the one involving star players Steve Garvey and Don Sutton.

    The Swingin' A's were always fighting. Reggie Jackson vs. Billy North, Jackson vs. Mike Epstein, and John Odom threw down with Vida Blue or someone else if I am not mistaken.

    Who was that backup quarterback that Roger Staubach had a problem with back in the day? Randy White threw Hollywood Henderson around like a rag doll.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @SunBakedSuburb, @David In TN

    “The Swingin’ A’s were always fighting.”

    And sneaky Campy Campaneris was always scheming.

  49. @Nicholas Stix
    @prosa123

    I seem to see a correlation between female juicers and small breasts.

    Nicholas Stix, Ph.D., boobology
    UCLA (the University at the Corner of Lenox Ave)

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @The Wild Geese Howard

    “Nicholas Stix, Ph.D., boobology UCLA”

    Do you receive funding from the Pritzker Foundation?

  50. I was actually once perusing a book by Frans de Waal at a local bookstore, he is a Dutch zoologist who works at the Yerkes Primate Center and Emory University and is an example of a very politically correct academic biologist, very much more so than say Richard Wrangham, who is a British zoologist at Harvard who writes about a lot of similar topics.

    Nonetheless, near the end of the book I was looking through, he mentioned something along these lines in the context of a personal anecdote; He knew a woman who a coach for the Dutch Olympic Swimming team coaching women. Near the start of one of the seasons a male coach on the men’s team died suddenly and she was asked to fill in for the season coaching the men instead. This woman had been coaching women for a quarter of a century, but after just one season coaching men, she asked to make her appointment to that position permanent. She had stated that she was amazed that men didn’t engage in the non-stop politicking that women did, and that men would never allow any personal feelings of animosity toward one another to damage the team’s performance. She even said that she had two men on the team that clearly didn’t like each other, but unlike with the women the men never demanded that all the other members of the team “take sides” in their disagreement, she said this was always the case with women. I was shocked that de Waal had included this story in his book, but he was clearly driving at the idea that men were indeed more cooperative than women for evolutionary reasons.

    • Thanks: fish
  51. @The Problem with Midway
    The problem I had with the movie "Midway" was the silly interpersonal shit. Presumably that was there to keep girlfriends from walking out of the movie. Just sink the Jap ships, all right?

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @J.Ross

    “The problem I had with the movie ‘Midway’”

    Your single issue focus is admirable. Can I rent your attention span for a week?

  52. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Achmed E. Newman, @Emil Nikola Richard, @AnotherDad

    I have forgotten the guy’s name but there was a Cleveland Cavalier who LeBron James got exiled because he was dating James’ mother.

    That guy set the standard in chutzpah.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    Delonte West

    , @Anon
    @Emil Nikola Richard

    "From now on, LeBron, I'd like it if you call me Dad."

  53. @Meretricious
    [do not publish]
    Steve, you need to add a hyphen in your header for sense (all-male)

    Replies: @Stan Adams

    [do not publish]

    [do not bother telling steve not to publish a comment]

  54. anonymous[241] • Disclaimer says:

    we find that female teams lower their contribution to the public good in the event of low likeability, while male teams achieve high levels of co-operation irrespective of the level of mutual likeability. In mixed-sex teams, both women’s and men’s contributions depend on mutual likeability.

    This explains why we didn’t allow women in the Armed Forces.

  55. @Barnard
    @Bill P

    Right, when players are asked about controversial players a typical response is, "I don't care as long as he does his job." Back when I followed pro basketball I heard this explained about the early 2000s Portland Trail Blazers teams. They went in a few seasons from nearly winning the Western Conference to totally imploding because close to half the roster was crazy, led by Rasheed Wallace. The explanation was when you have one crazy guy it is easier to keep him in line because no one reinforces the crazy behavior at two guys it gets harder but is still possible. Beyond two, you don't have a chance.

    Replies: @Bill P

    A lot of black guys are raised without a man in the house, so they are more likely to develop effeminate personality traits such as histrionic behavior, easily wounded pride, etc. The nature of basketball itself, which is a “showy” game, probably reinforces this somewhat.

    Football, on the other hand, is more workmanlike. Showy primadonnas get hit hard in practice, which tends to knock some sense into them. Also, jobs/roles are very well-defined in football.

    Sports that highlight female excellence involve give and take and/or showmanship in conjunction with self-discipline — not teamwork. Gymnastics, tennis, diving, skiing, skating and track and field come to mind. Women are pretty awesome but they just don’t do teams very well, and for solid reasons.

    Male teamwork is older than the human species. It doesn’t define us but it certainly enhances our abilities. But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Bill P


    Women are pretty awesome but they just don’t do teams very well, and for solid reasons.
     
    What are the solid reasons?

    But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.
     
    Please explain what “objectively assess intersubjective relations” is.

    Replies: @Bill P

    , @J.Ross
    @Bill P

    The government doesn't want you to know that abity is the capacity to passively reside Dudelike in a place.

    , @Hibernian
    @Bill P


    Football, on the other hand, is more workmanlike. Showy primadonnas...
     
    Aaron Rodgers, call your office.
  56. Anon[319] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kolya Krassotkin
    If women must like each other to work together effectively in a team effort, imagine what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?

    Replies: @AndrewR, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon, @Brutusale, @Almost Missouri

    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?

    Is it just if they dislike each other? According to the study, don’t issues arise if the person they dislike is male?

    In any case, and given the integration of women into the military, the government, and the workplace, it would appear to be important to know what makes a woman like or dislike someone. If we know what determines their likes and dislikes, we can appeal to those tastes and avoid the organizational and political problems.

    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Anon

    There's an internet trolling tool where you ask completely unnecessary questions you're not interested in to slow or throw a discussion, it could be demanding an unknowable prediction or quibbling about an undoubted source, but this, this, this thisly thissing with all possible thisness, this request to know why a woman doesn't like a person, this has got to be the cake-taking prizewinner for a rabbit hole which turns out to he a wormhole.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @Anon


    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?
     
    A woman will dislike another woman if the other woman is more attractive.

    She will dislike a man if he doesn't wear good shoes.

    Replies: @Unintended Consequence

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Anon


    What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?
     
    If only someone had ever developed any answers to this...
  57. A nominal MLB team can’t even communicate with each other. English, “Spanish,” Japanese, and ebonics all resonate through the locker room.

  58. @Nicholas Stix
    @prosa123

    I seem to see a correlation between female juicers and small breasts.

    Nicholas Stix, Ph.D., boobology
    UCLA (the University at the Corner of Lenox Ave)

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @The Wild Geese Howard

    I seem to see a correlation between female juicers and small breasts.

    Well, it’s simply logical that her giant roid gut is going to make her chest look small.

    That’s simply part of the PED game my good fellow.

  59. @Bill P
    @Barnard

    A lot of black guys are raised without a man in the house, so they are more likely to develop effeminate personality traits such as histrionic behavior, easily wounded pride, etc. The nature of basketball itself, which is a "showy" game, probably reinforces this somewhat.

    Football, on the other hand, is more workmanlike. Showy primadonnas get hit hard in practice, which tends to knock some sense into them. Also, jobs/roles are very well-defined in football.

    Sports that highlight female excellence involve give and take and/or showmanship in conjunction with self-discipline -- not teamwork. Gymnastics, tennis, diving, skiing, skating and track and field come to mind. Women are pretty awesome but they just don't do teams very well, and for solid reasons.

    Male teamwork is older than the human species. It doesn't define us but it certainly enhances our abilities. But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @J.Ross, @Hibernian

    Women are pretty awesome but they just don’t do teams very well, and for solid reasons.

    What are the solid reasons?

    But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.

    Please explain what “objectively assess intersubjective relations” is.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Anonymous

    Asking me for favors, and anonymously at that. Sorry, but it isn't my job to provide you with favors.

    What do you have to offer me, after all?

  60. @Bill P
    @Barnard

    A lot of black guys are raised without a man in the house, so they are more likely to develop effeminate personality traits such as histrionic behavior, easily wounded pride, etc. The nature of basketball itself, which is a "showy" game, probably reinforces this somewhat.

    Football, on the other hand, is more workmanlike. Showy primadonnas get hit hard in practice, which tends to knock some sense into them. Also, jobs/roles are very well-defined in football.

    Sports that highlight female excellence involve give and take and/or showmanship in conjunction with self-discipline -- not teamwork. Gymnastics, tennis, diving, skiing, skating and track and field come to mind. Women are pretty awesome but they just don't do teams very well, and for solid reasons.

    Male teamwork is older than the human species. It doesn't define us but it certainly enhances our abilities. But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @J.Ross, @Hibernian

    The government doesn’t want you to know that abity is the capacity to passively reside Dudelike in a place.

  61. @Anon
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?
     
    Is it just if they dislike each other? According to the study, don’t issues arise if the person they dislike is male?

    In any case, and given the integration of women into the military, the government, and the workplace, it would appear to be important to know what makes a woman like or dislike someone. If we know what determines their likes and dislikes, we can appeal to those tastes and avoid the organizational and political problems.

    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Buzz Mohawk, @Almost Missouri

    There’s an internet trolling tool where you ask completely unnecessary questions you’re not interested in to slow or throw a discussion, it could be demanding an unknowable prediction or quibbling about an undoubted source, but this, this, this thisly thissing with all possible thisness, this request to know why a woman doesn’t like a person, this has got to be the cake-taking prizewinner for a rabbit hole which turns out to he a wormhole.

    • LOL: res
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @J.Ross


    There’s an internet trolling tool where you ask completely unnecessary questions you’re not interested in to slow or throw a discussion
     
    This is known as sealioning. And yes, asking why women hate women may the ultimate sealioning question.

    Replies: @J.Ross

  62. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.

    Replies: @Barnard, @Achmed E. Newman, @Emil Nikola Richard, @AnotherDad

    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.

    Don’t believe it for a second.

    Nothing wrong with Toni Braxton, but not exactly Briseis. And Briseis herself wasn’t really the issue.

    Disrespect relating to women can be a real issue breaking cooperation amongst men. But serious men do not get so goo-goo eyed over just some girl per se, that they fail to do the necessary. (There are always more fish in the ocean.)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @AnotherDad


    But serious men do not get so goo-goo eyed over just some girl per se, that they fail to do the necessary.
     
    What is “the necessary”?

    Do they fail to do it, if the girl is more than “just some girl” and is someone they really like?
  63. @The Problem with Midway
    The problem I had with the movie "Midway" was the silly interpersonal shit. Presumably that was there to keep girlfriends from walking out of the movie. Just sink the Jap ships, all right?

    Replies: @SunBakedSuburb, @J.Ross

    You know, the guy whose account inspired the mini-series Das Boot (which is a miniseries and not a movie) disliked the hyper-emotionality of the performances, even though that angst was probably part of how Wolfgang Petersen got away with showing WWII German protagonists.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @J.Ross


    You know, the guy whose account inspired the mini-series Das Boot (which is a miniseries and not a movie) disliked the hyper-emotionality of the performances
     
    That’s because actors are actresses beneath the surface (the actual saying is, “Scratch an actor, find an actress”).
  64. @Steve Sailer
    @jamie b.

    I think the economics/property rights/contractual side of rock bands make them trouble. (Also, the drugs.)

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Reg Cæsar

    A open letter from John Lennon to Paul McCartney is currently up for auction. It supports your point.

    https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/john-lennons-brutal-breakup-letter-to-paul-mccartney-you-s-t-all-over-us/

    Fun reading, the letter, apparently typed by Lennon himself, follows:

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Buzz Mohawk

    This makes me remember they had high-end typewriters with a function that would let you underline words. But the double underline -- was that a really good model, such as a top rock star might have, or was he just using a pen?

    , @Unintended Consequence
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Though I have to admit Paul is my favorite Beatle, I really like what's revealed about John Lennon's character through this letter.

    , @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Since John Lennon was only following Yoko's orders that one actually illustrates the exact OPPOSITE of the the point you thought you were making Einstiein.

  65. @Trinity
    Allegedly Pete Rose and Johnny Bench didn't like each other. Who can blame Bench, Rose was an ass.

    Replies: @njguy73, @Redneck farmer

    A lot of Cincinnati fans believe the opposite. They’d go to talk to Bench, but wound up talking to Rose, who would actually talk to them.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Redneck farmer

    The Reds did their spring training in Tampa and Plant City, Florida back in the day, Rose was seen as an asshole by plenty down there. Pete was a local boy in Cincinnati so maybe he was favored there because of it.

  66. @AnotherDad
    @Steve Sailer


    A few decades ago, the Dallas Mavericks basketball team started losing games because their two star players stopped passing the ball to each other because they were both in love with singer Toni Braxton.
     
    Don't believe it for a second.

    Nothing wrong with Toni Braxton, but not exactly Briseis. And Briseis herself wasn't really the issue.

    Disrespect relating to women can be a real issue breaking cooperation amongst men. But serious men do not get so goo-goo eyed over just some girl per se, that they fail to do the necessary. (There are always more fish in the ocean.)

    Replies: @Anonymous

    But serious men do not get so goo-goo eyed over just some girl per se, that they fail to do the necessary.

    What is “the necessary”?

    Do they fail to do it, if the girl is more than “just some girl” and is someone they really like?

  67. @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Scottie Pippen didn't think Michael Jordan was a nice guy, but he definitely upped his game to not be on Jordan's bad side.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Fred C Dobbs, @JimDandy, @Hapalong Cassidy

    I think men are more inclined to say “Ohh yeah? I’ll show you, you bastard!” when feeling slighted by coaches/teammates etc. Vengeance is a powerful motivator. Women will continue the catfights……forever.

    • Agree: fish
  68. @Anonymous
    @Bill P


    Women are pretty awesome but they just don’t do teams very well, and for solid reasons.
     
    What are the solid reasons?

    But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.
     
    Please explain what “objectively assess intersubjective relations” is.

    Replies: @Bill P

    Asking me for favors, and anonymously at that. Sorry, but it isn’t my job to provide you with favors.

    What do you have to offer me, after all?

  69. @Bill P
    @Barnard

    A lot of black guys are raised without a man in the house, so they are more likely to develop effeminate personality traits such as histrionic behavior, easily wounded pride, etc. The nature of basketball itself, which is a "showy" game, probably reinforces this somewhat.

    Football, on the other hand, is more workmanlike. Showy primadonnas get hit hard in practice, which tends to knock some sense into them. Also, jobs/roles are very well-defined in football.

    Sports that highlight female excellence involve give and take and/or showmanship in conjunction with self-discipline -- not teamwork. Gymnastics, tennis, diving, skiing, skating and track and field come to mind. Women are pretty awesome but they just don't do teams very well, and for solid reasons.

    Male teamwork is older than the human species. It doesn't define us but it certainly enhances our abilities. But so does the generally feminine abity to objectively assess intersubjective relations, which is an extraordinarily powerful skill.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @J.Ross, @Hibernian

    Football, on the other hand, is more workmanlike. Showy primadonnas…

    Aaron Rodgers, call your office.

  70. @Anon
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?
     
    Is it just if they dislike each other? According to the study, don’t issues arise if the person they dislike is male?

    In any case, and given the integration of women into the military, the government, and the workplace, it would appear to be important to know what makes a woman like or dislike someone. If we know what determines their likes and dislikes, we can appeal to those tastes and avoid the organizational and political problems.

    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Buzz Mohawk, @Almost Missouri

    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?

    A woman will dislike another woman if the other woman is more attractive.

    She will dislike a man if he doesn’t wear good shoes.

    • Replies: @Unintended Consequence
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Another woman being prettier happens with a great degree of regularity. Most women learn to cope with this reality early in life. Haven't you ever noticed that beautiful women often have a bevy of less attractive friends who may function as her ladies-in-waiting or be the pretty friend of nerdier females. While I can't quite explain how this works, it does seem to have something to do with the beauty queen being able to switch modes of interacting and just be one of the gals. I'd say conflict would be more likely with two females of more equal attractiveness. (I had an issue with bad feelings between two of my friends at a party where they took a spontaneous dislike to one another. Both were hot chicks.) Doesn't this happen with alpha males as well?

    Replies: @Anon

  71. Anon[228] • Disclaimer says:

    The word discrete does the heavy lifting. Adding subspecies gives an extra boost. Voilá! You’ve created a straw man.

    Races do not imply the lack of clinal gradations. Not everyone goes into one of a few discrete categories, even if you disregard modern admixture. But on the whole there are large groups whose members are relatively similar to one another and relatively dissimilar to members of other large groups, because they are ancestrally separately in the distant past, and a certain amount of leakage and back-migration doesn’t change this.

  72. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Steve Sailer

    I have forgotten the guy's name but there was a Cleveland Cavalier who LeBron James got exiled because he was dating James' mother.

    That guy set the standard in chutzpah.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Anon

    Delonte West

  73. @Trinity
    The 1970s Dodgers got along fine despite some dust ups like the one involving star players Steve Garvey and Don Sutton.

    The Swingin' A's were always fighting. Reggie Jackson vs. Billy North, Jackson vs. Mike Epstein, and John Odom threw down with Vida Blue or someone else if I am not mistaken.

    Who was that backup quarterback that Roger Staubach had a problem with back in the day? Randy White threw Hollywood Henderson around like a rag doll.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @SunBakedSuburb, @David In TN

    The backup QB that Roger Staubach “had a problem with” was Clint Longley. They had a fight during the 1976 training camp. Next day, Longley sucker-punched Staubach in the locker room. Longley then ran away, had his bags packed.

    • Thanks: Trinity
  74. @Anonymous
    Amusing bit from the 1982 film Personal Best

    Terry Tingloff (played by Scott Glenn): All right, one thing ya gotta understand: I could've been a man's coach. Backfield coach, Oregon State: I had the job, I had the job, I actually had the job. You understand? I had the job. Ah, well. Coach of the year. I was coach of the year last year. You know what that means when you're a womens' coach? Jack shit. I mean I could have coached football. Do you actually think that Chuck Knoll has to worry that Franco Harris is gonna cry 'cause Terry Bradshaw won't talk to him? - Hmm? - Jack Lambert can't play because Mel Blount hurt his feelings, that Lynn Swann is pregnant, that Rocky Bleier forgot his Tampax. Ah, fuck!
     

    Replies: @David In TN

    I was thinking of that scene with the Scott Glenn character when I saw this thread.

  75. Men build armies. You don’t have to like the man, you have to respect the office. You don’t have to like each other, you have to accomplish the mission. Clients and co-workers can become friends, even good friends, but not the other way around.

    Women build families. Family members have to like, nay, love each other. This is why women gravitate to HR departments, where their job is to try and make everybody love each other. They also do good in mutual back-scratching endeavors like residential real estate.

    There are of course exceptions. I know some very competent, mission-focused women in my field (none of them trans or gay, btw). And families don’t have to be building-blocks of society; they can be cold, calculating wealth-preservation arrangements.

    Putting women in armies, putting men in preschools, including deranged men acting out female mannerisms in women’s athletics, or including angry, ostentatious lesbians in women’s athletics, just doesn’t work.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Disagree: Corvinus
  76. Were the ’79 Pirates the blackest team to win a World Series? Not in number if players necessarily, but sensibility.

    They had Stargell, cocaine aficionado Dave Parker, the infamous Doc Ellis (who threw a perfect game on acid) , Jim Bibby, Lee Lacy, Bill Robinson ( Darryl Strawberry’s mentor), Bill ‘Mad Dog’ Matlock, Mike Easler, John Milner, Rennie Stennett, and a few Afro-Caribbean players.

    You rarely see that many African American players on major league teams anymore.

  77. There’s a Saki short story of a group vacation house for married couples (this is pre WWI) in which one woman deliberately irritates all the others. Spoiler: the organizer put her in to keep the peace by uniting the women against her.

  78. @Bardon Kaldian
    I think Steve couldn't write a review of, say, Mozart's "Requiem" without mentioning baseball (or golf) ....

    Replies: @Stan Adams, @Reg Cæsar

    I think Steve couldn’t write a review of, say, Mozart’s “Requiem” without mentioning baseball (or golf) ….

    Leck mich im Arsch.

    [MORE]

  79. @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Scottie Pippen didn't think Michael Jordan was a nice guy, but he definitely upped his game to not be on Jordan's bad side.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Fred C Dobbs, @JimDandy, @Hapalong Cassidy

    I agree. But there’s even more context to it. Jordan was a sort of diabolical psychological manipulator. He was known for taking the superstar from opposing teams out to dinner the night before games and forging a real bond with them and then come gametime took them off guard with total ruthlessness. In-house, he had Pippen psysched out to such an extent that he submissively regarded Jordan as his superstar big brother, as opposed to his peer. Pippen absolutely was Jordan’s peer. Absolutely “in the same league” as Jordan. A Top 50 all-time player who almost won it all with the Bulls without Jordan.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Bill Simmons' 2009 Big Book of Basketball ranked Scottie Pippen as #24 all time in NBA history, and Jordan as #1.

    Pippen was an incredibly great basketball player.

    https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/4/19/21225904/scottie-pippen-bill-simmons-book-of-basketball-hall-of-fame-pyramid

    Still, were Pippen and Jordan peers? From Pippen's perspective, sure. From Jordan's perspective, Pippen was the younger brother he could drag to some degree of greatness.

    Who was right?

    As an ex-Chicagoan, I think about Jordan and Pippen a lot.

    Replies: @JimDandy

  80. All-Male Teams Can Succeed Without the Teammates Liking Each Other

    Nobody liked Churchill, but he put quite an effective team together. I don’t know if Stalin liked FDR, or whether the blow jobs only went one way. From French Quora:

    [MORE]

    Qui est le pays que les États-unis a trahi le plus ?

    Je ne sais pas quel pays fut le plus trahi par les États-Unis mais mon pays, la Norvège fut trahie en 1943. Voici comment:

    En 1993, 50 ans plus tard quand le secret politique fut levé, une lettre du président Roosevelt au maréchal Staline fut rendue publique. Cette lettre disait environ ceci: Si l’Union Soviétique désirait envahir la province de Finnmark tout au nord de la Norvège, les alliés ne s’y opposerait pas.

    À quoi Staline a répondu que l’Union Soviétique n’avait aucune revendication territoriale sur la Norvège.

    La raison pour laquelle Roosevelt aurait écrit cela c’est dans l’espoir qu’un front tout au nord de l’Europe aurait fait partir beaucoup de troupes allemandes au nord et ainsi, rendre le débarquement en Normandie, plus facile et aussi, sauvant la vie de soldats américains.

    Mais, le plus terrible c’est que Roosevelt décida cela au moment même que la princesse royale norvégienne Martha et son fils Harald, qui est aujourd’hui le roi de Norvège, étaient les invités du président à la Maison-Blanche.

    Moi j’appelle cela un trahison.

    Who is the country that the United States has betrayed the most?

    I don’t know which country was betrayed the most by the United States, but my country, Norway, was betrayed in 1943. Here’s how:

    In 1993, 50 years later when political secrecy was lifted, a letter from President Roosevelt to Marshal Stalin was made public. This letter said something like this: If the Soviet Union wished to invade the province of Finnmark in the very north of Norway, the allies would not oppose it.

    To which Stalin replied that the Soviet Union had no territorial claim to Norway.

    The reason why Roosevelt would have written this is in the hope that a front all the way north of Europe would have sent a lot of German troops north and thus make the landing in Normandy easier and also, saving the lives of American soldiers.

    But, the most terrible thing is that Roosevelt decided this at the very moment when the Norwegian royal princess Martha and her son Harald, who is today the king of Norway, were the president’s guests at the White House.

    I call that betrayal.

    • Replies: @Unintended Consequence
    @Reg Cæsar

    Via a Russian assistant who was also an artist, I believe, FDR was somewhat influenced by communists. She seemed especially involved when FDR was convalescing. Eleanor has been said to have had communist sympathies as well.

    I had thought FDR's deference to Stalin mostly had to do with his being ill and quite feebleminded during negotiations post WWII but this letter makes it seem FDR might actually have been a Soviet asset.

  81. @Nicholas Stix

    "(Donald Trump learned a lesson about no-such-thing-as-bad-publicity from Steinbrenner’s 1970s Yankees.)"
     
    I thought Trump and Steinbrenner are the same guy, even though Steinbrenner allegedly died. Has anyone ever seen them in the same room together?

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @kaganovitch

    I personally know two WASP businessmen NYC born and bred with the same blustery, blunt personalities as Trump and Steinbrenner. It is what it is.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    In other words, you served as their corporate lawyer and did their personal bidding because it paid well. No doubt they were Jewish, so you learned some of their tricks along the way.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

  82. @Nicholas Stix

    "(Donald Trump learned a lesson about no-such-thing-as-bad-publicity from Steinbrenner’s 1970s Yankees.)"
     
    I thought Trump and Steinbrenner are the same guy, even though Steinbrenner allegedly died. Has anyone ever seen them in the same room together?

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @kaganovitch

    Has anyone ever seen them in the same room together?

    Here you go. Happier times.

    • Thanks: ScarletNumber
  83. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Unintended Consequence
    This research sounds all well and good but I'd also consider some other configurations. For instance, Gay males often interact in more stereotypically female ways. Would an all male team of homosexuals or mixed gay and straight get similar results. I doubt it. Another consideration might be ethnicity. Are all male teams still effective when team members have different cultures? I've observed some marked personality differences across cultures. Some males seem like they'd prefer to fight than get any work done. Of course, I'm a female so my observations will have been when I was part of the group. Perhaps insecure males have trouble being subordinate when women are watching.

    Replies: @Anon, @Almost Missouri

    Are all male teams still effective when team members have different cultures?

    Not only that. It would be interesting to know whether the finding of robust male cooperation (despite not liking each other) replicated across ethnicities. Are the men of some races more cooperative than the men of other races?

  84. @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Steve Sailer

    I have forgotten the guy's name but there was a Cleveland Cavalier who LeBron James got exiled because he was dating James' mother.

    That guy set the standard in chutzpah.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Anon

    “From now on, LeBron, I’d like it if you call me Dad.”

  85. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    A open letter from John Lennon to Paul McCartney is currently up for auction. It supports your point.

    https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/john-lennons-brutal-breakup-letter-to-paul-mccartney-you-s-t-all-over-us/

    Fun reading, the letter, apparently typed by Lennon himself, follows:


    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/letter-muzzed-copy.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289c_lg.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289a_lg.jpg

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Unintended Consequence, @Emil Nikola Richard

    This makes me remember they had high-end typewriters with a function that would let you underline words. But the double underline — was that a really good model, such as a top rock star might have, or was he just using a pen?

  86. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?
     
    CVN-72, the USS Abraham Lincoln is going to be an interesting test case.

    Here is her current commander:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Bauernschmidt

    Be right back, I'm off to Costco to buy popcorn in bulk.

    Replies: @duncsbaby, @Kolya Krassotkin

    Bauernschmidt has a man-jaw, a man-neck and crazy eyes. A fine combination.

    Where’s my MAN OF UNZ secret society badge?

  87. @J.Ross
    @The Problem with Midway

    You know, the guy whose account inspired the mini-series Das Boot (which is a miniseries and not a movie) disliked the hyper-emotionality of the performances, even though that angst was probably part of how Wolfgang Petersen got away with showing WWII German protagonists.

    Replies: @Twinkie

    You know, the guy whose account inspired the mini-series Das Boot (which is a miniseries and not a movie) disliked the hyper-emotionality of the performances

    That’s because actors are actresses beneath the surface (the actual saying is, “Scratch an actor, find an actress”).

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
  88. Baseball teams seem to get along okay without the players liking each other much,

    Not a great example though since baseball is a team sport with the lowest amount of direct cooperation necessary. If I don’t like a guy and I don’t want to see his face or practice with him it really wouldn’t matter to the final result in a way that isn’t true of other team sports. Maybe that’s also why baseball players seem to openly hate and feud with each other a lot, they never pay much of a price.

  89. @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    I agree. But there's even more context to it. Jordan was a sort of diabolical psychological manipulator. He was known for taking the superstar from opposing teams out to dinner the night before games and forging a real bond with them and then come gametime took them off guard with total ruthlessness. In-house, he had Pippen psysched out to such an extent that he submissively regarded Jordan as his superstar big brother, as opposed to his peer. Pippen absolutely was Jordan's peer. Absolutely "in the same league" as Jordan. A Top 50 all-time player who almost won it all with the Bulls without Jordan.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Bill Simmons’ 2009 Big Book of Basketball ranked Scottie Pippen as #24 all time in NBA history, and Jordan as #1.

    Pippen was an incredibly great basketball player.

    https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/4/19/21225904/scottie-pippen-bill-simmons-book-of-basketball-hall-of-fame-pyramid

    Still, were Pippen and Jordan peers? From Pippen’s perspective, sure. From Jordan’s perspective, Pippen was the younger brother he could drag to some degree of greatness.

    Who was right?

    As an ex-Chicagoan, I think about Jordan and Pippen a lot.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Steve Sailer

    Yeah, as a still-Chicagoan, me too. I'd say, relative to all of the 4,400 or so NBA players in history, the members of the Top-25-Ever list are peers, but I also hear what you're saying. Pippen was a poor country boy, kind of a hayseed--with, I believe, a big heart--and I feel like he got taken advantage of by lots of people. Whatever the case, I feel lucky to have been alive and living in Chicago when Jordan and Pippen were playing together.

  90. @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Bill Simmons' 2009 Big Book of Basketball ranked Scottie Pippen as #24 all time in NBA history, and Jordan as #1.

    Pippen was an incredibly great basketball player.

    https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/4/19/21225904/scottie-pippen-bill-simmons-book-of-basketball-hall-of-fame-pyramid

    Still, were Pippen and Jordan peers? From Pippen's perspective, sure. From Jordan's perspective, Pippen was the younger brother he could drag to some degree of greatness.

    Who was right?

    As an ex-Chicagoan, I think about Jordan and Pippen a lot.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Yeah, as a still-Chicagoan, me too. I’d say, relative to all of the 4,400 or so NBA players in history, the members of the Top-25-Ever list are peers, but I also hear what you’re saying. Pippen was a poor country boy, kind of a hayseed–with, I believe, a big heart–and I feel like he got taken advantage of by lots of people. Whatever the case, I feel lucky to have been alive and living in Chicago when Jordan and Pippen were playing together.

  91. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "That history helps explain the otherwise curious vote to give Willie Stargell, age 39 and fat, the National League Most Valuable Player award in 1979 (in a tie with Keith Hernandez). By modern stats, Willie was only the 9th best player on the World Champion Pittsburgh Pirates that year"

    Actually, this was MLB's way of belatedly honoring a well respected player's career, somewhat akin to the Lifetime Achievement award in Hollywood (Stargell was inducted first ballot into the HOF). In 1971, on the WS Champion Pirates, Stargell led the NL in HR's and RBI's, but lost the MVP to batting champion Joe Torre. Stargell also had a stellar year in 1973, but came up short. Ironically in his ghost-written aimed at kids book on batting fundamentals, Jackson stated that he thought that Stargell had a better batting line in '73 than he did (Jackson was the AL's MVP that year).
    So the point being that MLB at times has a way of even-ing things out.
    e.g. HOF NY CF Mickey Mantle lost the MVP in '60 & '61 to teammate Roger Maris, and so he won the MVP in '62 (one of his weakest statistical yrs).

    'To cite my go-to example, the late 1970s New York Yankees were constant tabloid fodder of public feuds among owner George Steinbrenner"

    Ironic that you would chose NY of the late '70's, whereas the template for constant feuds, even more than Steinbrenner's teams were the early '70's teams of OAK owner Charles Finley. Finley, Manger Dick Williams,...and Reggie Jackson. Reggie and teammate Bill North fought each other in the locker room. HOF P closer Rollie Fingers and Blue Moon Odom got in a punching match before the start of the '74 WS (vs LA).

    Finley's teams were the first to really go public in the post-Ball Four era, where dirty laundry was aired publicly all the time.

    Even Steinbrenner didn't try to fire/replace an infielder during the WS for making a couple of errors that cost the team the game.

    OAK had constant fighting among teammates, some not speaking to one another for yrs, but all united vs their cheapskate owner Charles Finley.

    The stylish '70's trend of mustaches/beards which OAK started, was mainly due to Finley offering to pay $300 bucks to any player who wore facial hair on opening day in '72. Reggie Jackson was the first, on his own, to sport a beard. When Finley's threats and orders to shave didn't faze Jackson, Finley offered any player $300 if they grew facial hair, in order to psychologically show up Jackson, but the tactic backfired.

    As far as the all time award for dysfunctional teams, it has to go to OAK of the 1970-75 era.

    Two future HOFers, Jackson and Catfish Hunter, signed with NY after many seasons in OAK.

    The only difference between Finley and Steinbrenner, was that unlike the tightwad Finley, Steinbrenner was always willing to pay (even overpay) free agents, all he asked was that the players produce. And in '77 and '78, they did.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    Steve’s point is that Donald Trump definitely had George Steinbrenner as an influence, while Trump and Finley never crossed paths. As for Finley, his biggest contribution to pop culture was his hiring of a young MC Hammer as Oakland A’s batboy and to be his eyes and ears on the ground when he was in Chicago. Reggie Jackson noticed that the new batboy looked like Hank Aaron, and so gave him the nickname of Hammer.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @ScarletNumber

    "Steve’s point is that Donald Trump definitely had George Steinbrenner as an influence, while Trump and Finley never crossed paths."

    My point was that to a large extent, Steinbrenner was directly influenced by Charles Finley. Unlike George Steinbrenner (at least for the first 15-20 yrs of his ownership of NY), Finley won 3 consecutive WS during the '70's and was directly responsible for the volatile personality of a new MLB owner. It was Finley, not George, who set the template of an off the wall, and very, very public owner (which directly went vs a century of MLB ownership.) Before Finley, MLB owners always assumed a low profile, and usually made it a point not to make the papers, much less the front pages for various controversial sayings or endeavors. That is all directly traced to Finley. Before Finley, the closest that one could find was Bill Veech, who was basically a carny barker. Unlike Finley, Veech got lucky with CLE and later CHI, whose teams were developed by previous ownership. Veech stepped in and took credit for teams that largely were not his making.

    "As for Finley, his biggest contribution to pop culture was his hiring of a young MC Hammer as Oakland A’s batboy and to be his eyes and ears on the ground when he was in Chicago."

    Actually, he did a few more things than just MC.

    The DH, was a large part of his suggestions that were implemented.

    For the first time in AL history, Finley showed how a small market team could utilize the draft. Previous ownership of the A's (first in PHI and later KC) would simply have a fire sale and unload their prospects and better starters to competitive clubs for cash. Finley held onto his players, and used the new draft to build the team from within.

    In some ways, Finley's legacy in this aspect of player development ranks alongside legendary HOF GM Branch Rickey, who didn't have the benefit of the 1965 draft, which started the rule that the lowest finishing teams could have the top draft picks the following year. Instead of trading away/selling his best draft picks, Finley's organization developed the players, brought them up to KC/OAK, and started them right away. The OAK teams that won the WS in the early '70's were a very young team.

    Speaking of MC, he narrates this documentary.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PQwanQt7FM

  92. @Rich
    I wonder if the Yankees of the early 70s got along a little too well. Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich swapped wives back in 72 and the team was pretty bad.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    The Yankees were more mediocre than bad in the early 70s, but since only 4 teams made the playoffs back then those teams are remembered as being worse than they really were. The wife-swap took place in 73 and the Yankees finished 80-82 that year. The next year they would have been the first Wild Card at 89-73, but as the Orioles won 91 that year they simply went home.

    • Replies: @Rich
    @ScarletNumber

    Back then, an 80-82 team was considered bad and fans would have rejected anything like a "wild card". I remember older relatives mocking hockey and basketball when they started doing those types of playoffs. The swap took place in 72, it was leaked to the media in 73. People were actually offended by such things in 1972, but by 73 the culture had changed....

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @ScarletNumber

    "The Yankees were more mediocre than bad in the early 70s, but since only 4 teams made the playoffs back then those teams are remembered as being worse than they really were."

    This has to be placed in the proper context.

    From 1920-64, NY won 29 AL Pennants and 20 WS Championships. Less than ten yrs prior, they were playing in the WS. So historically from NY's perspective of two generations that grew up watching their home town team playing for a WS, the late '60's and early '70s teams were disastrous. Why? Because they were not winning. They were losers, just like all those sub-standard clubs that ate their dust for 45 consecutive years.

    Thus, the Yankees of 1965-75, from an historical standpoint, were quite awful. The standard had been set in the '20's, and it was about winning. Not going .500. Not finishing in 2nd place. But winning.

    And it was probably especially galling to fans to watch HOF's Mantle, and Ford, and (briefly) stellar players such as Tresh, Richardson, Maris, to finish their careers/stints with NY on losing teams, when for two generations they were champs. Mel Stottlemeyer, who had been brought up in '64, and played in the final WS with that classic era team, to then spend the next decade on mediocre losing teams, was the reminder of what NY once was, what they had been, but they were no longer: winners.

    Could also make a similar case for NY 1B Don Mattingly, he came up in '82 (the year after NY appeared in the WS) and retired in 1995, the year before NY won the WS.

    Historically for NY, mediocrity = losing = failure.

    No other club in MLB history symbolizes winning like NY. None. That's their entire identity. Even casual fans or people who don't follow baseball have heard of NY. When one thinks of NY, they think winning.

  93. @J.Ross
    @Anon

    There's an internet trolling tool where you ask completely unnecessary questions you're not interested in to slow or throw a discussion, it could be demanding an unknowable prediction or quibbling about an undoubted source, but this, this, this thisly thissing with all possible thisness, this request to know why a woman doesn't like a person, this has got to be the cake-taking prizewinner for a rabbit hole which turns out to he a wormhole.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    There’s an internet trolling tool where you ask completely unnecessary questions you’re not interested in to slow or throw a discussion

    This is known as sealioning. And yes, asking why women hate women may the ultimate sealioning question.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @ScarletNumber

    Is that from the Wondermark comic or is it from something earlier?

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  94. @Steve Sailer
    @JimDandy

    Scottie Pippen didn't think Michael Jordan was a nice guy, but he definitely upped his game to not be on Jordan's bad side.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Fred C Dobbs, @JimDandy, @Hapalong Cassidy

    I’m sure that Jordan and Pippen didn’t particularly like Dennis Rodman either, but everyone knew that those two were the only ones with the combined willpower to keep Rodman’s craziness in check.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Arguably the greatest rebounder in history, and definitely the best rebounder for his height. The way he'd tip it to himself, multiples times, to get the board was pretty great. He was exactly what that team needed. Horace Grant's departure left a hole--there were all kinds of tensions between Grant and Jordan and others, but they got the job done.

  95. @ScarletNumber
    @J.Ross


    There’s an internet trolling tool where you ask completely unnecessary questions you’re not interested in to slow or throw a discussion
     
    This is known as sealioning. And yes, asking why women hate women may the ultimate sealioning question.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Is that from the Wondermark comic or is it from something earlier?

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @J.Ross

    The former. It was coined 2014 and immediately took hold, the ultimate mot juste.

  96. @Twinkie
    @Curle


    ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.
     
    That’s gonna result in lots of broken female bodies, esp. as they age.

    Replies: @Feryl

    Long before Bill Simmons went woke, he often posted stories regarding female athlete’s knee injuries without comment.

  97. Baseball is a team sport, but it doesn’t require much interaction among most of the players. Oh, the pitchers and the catcher have to be on the same page, and the shortstop has to be in sync with the second baseman, but otherwise? Reggie Jackson can hit homers even if Thurman Munson hates him, and Steve Garvey can still drive in 100 runs even if Reggie Smith thinks he’s a phony and a dork. In baseball, selfishness doesn’t really hurt the team. If I do my job well, it automatically helps my teammates, even the ones who hate me.

    It can be very different in football and basketball. If the left tackle hates the quarterback, he may not work as hard to protect him. If the point guard hates the high scoring forward, he may not pass to him.

    • Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard
    @Astorian

    Point guards are paid for assists.

    When they are on court running at full speed nobody has any energy for animosity. Also if a lineman lets down in protection it shows up on the film from four different camera angles and every single play gets graded by multiple graders.

  98. @Reg Cæsar

    All-Male Teams Can Succeed Without the Teammates Liking Each Other
     
    Nobody liked Churchill, but he put quite an effective team together. I don't know if Stalin liked FDR, or whether the blow jobs only went one way. From French Quora:

    Qui est le pays que les États-unis a trahi le plus ?

    Je ne sais pas quel pays fut le plus trahi par les États-Unis mais mon pays, la Norvège fut trahie en 1943. Voici comment:

    En 1993, 50 ans plus tard quand le secret politique fut levé, une lettre du président Roosevelt au maréchal Staline fut rendue publique. Cette lettre disait environ ceci: Si l'Union Soviétique désirait envahir la province de Finnmark tout au nord de la Norvège, les alliés ne s'y opposerait pas.

    À quoi Staline a répondu que l'Union Soviétique n'avait aucune revendication territoriale sur la Norvège.

    La raison pour laquelle Roosevelt aurait écrit cela c'est dans l'espoir qu'un front tout au nord de l'Europe aurait fait partir beaucoup de troupes allemandes au nord et ainsi, rendre le débarquement en Normandie, plus facile et aussi, sauvant la vie de soldats américains.

    Mais, le plus terrible c'est que Roosevelt décida cela au moment même que la princesse royale norvégienne Martha et son fils Harald, qui est aujourd'hui le roi de Norvège, étaient les invités du président à la Maison-Blanche.

    Moi j'appelle cela un trahison.

    Who is the country that the United States has betrayed the most?

    I don't know which country was betrayed the most by the United States, but my country, Norway, was betrayed in 1943. Here's how:

    In 1993, 50 years later when political secrecy was lifted, a letter from President Roosevelt to Marshal Stalin was made public. This letter said something like this: If the Soviet Union wished to invade the province of Finnmark in the very north of Norway, the allies would not oppose it.

    To which Stalin replied that the Soviet Union had no territorial claim to Norway.

    The reason why Roosevelt would have written this is in the hope that a front all the way north of Europe would have sent a lot of German troops north and thus make the landing in Normandy easier and also, saving the lives of American soldiers.

    But, the most terrible thing is that Roosevelt decided this at the very moment when the Norwegian royal princess Martha and her son Harald, who is today the king of Norway, were the president's guests at the White House.

    I call that betrayal.

    Replies: @Unintended Consequence

    Via a Russian assistant who was also an artist, I believe, FDR was somewhat influenced by communists. She seemed especially involved when FDR was convalescing. Eleanor has been said to have had communist sympathies as well.

    I had thought FDR’s deference to Stalin mostly had to do with his being ill and quite feebleminded during negotiations post WWII but this letter makes it seem FDR might actually have been a Soviet asset.

  99. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Anon


    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?
     
    A woman will dislike another woman if the other woman is more attractive.

    She will dislike a man if he doesn't wear good shoes.

    Replies: @Unintended Consequence

    Another woman being prettier happens with a great degree of regularity. Most women learn to cope with this reality early in life. Haven’t you ever noticed that beautiful women often have a bevy of less attractive friends who may function as her ladies-in-waiting or be the pretty friend of nerdier females. While I can’t quite explain how this works, it does seem to have something to do with the beauty queen being able to switch modes of interacting and just be one of the gals. I’d say conflict would be more likely with two females of more equal attractiveness. (I had an issue with bad feelings between two of my friends at a party where they took a spontaneous dislike to one another. Both were hot chicks.) Doesn’t this happen with alpha males as well?

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Unintended Consequence

    There was an incredible amount of female liberal antagonism to Sarah Palin simply because of Palin's looks. That was a classic case.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  100. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    A open letter from John Lennon to Paul McCartney is currently up for auction. It supports your point.

    https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/john-lennons-brutal-breakup-letter-to-paul-mccartney-you-s-t-all-over-us/

    Fun reading, the letter, apparently typed by Lennon himself, follows:


    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/letter-muzzed-copy.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289c_lg.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289a_lg.jpg

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Unintended Consequence, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Though I have to admit Paul is my favorite Beatle, I really like what’s revealed about John Lennon’s character through this letter.

  101. @Buzz Mohawk
    @Steve Sailer

    A open letter from John Lennon to Paul McCartney is currently up for auction. It supports your point.

    https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/john-lennons-brutal-breakup-letter-to-paul-mccartney-you-s-t-all-over-us/

    Fun reading, the letter, apparently typed by Lennon himself, follows:


    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/letter-muzzed-copy.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289c_lg.jpg

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/08/aug22-289a_lg.jpg

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Unintended Consequence, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Since John Lennon was only following Yoko’s orders that one actually illustrates the exact OPPOSITE of the the point you thought you were making Einstiein.

  102. @Redneck farmer
    @Trinity

    A lot of Cincinnati fans believe the opposite. They'd go to talk to Bench, but wound up talking to Rose, who would actually talk to them.

    Replies: @Trinity

    The Reds did their spring training in Tampa and Plant City, Florida back in the day, Rose was seen as an asshole by plenty down there. Pete was a local boy in Cincinnati so maybe he was favored there because of it.

  103. @ScarletNumber
    @Rich

    The Yankees were more mediocre than bad in the early 70s, but since only 4 teams made the playoffs back then those teams are remembered as being worse than they really were. The wife-swap took place in 73 and the Yankees finished 80-82 that year. The next year they would have been the first Wild Card at 89-73, but as the Orioles won 91 that year they simply went home.

    Replies: @Rich, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Back then, an 80-82 team was considered bad and fans would have rejected anything like a “wild card”. I remember older relatives mocking hockey and basketball when they started doing those types of playoffs. The swap took place in 72, it was leaked to the media in 73. People were actually offended by such things in 1972, but by 73 the culture had changed….

  104. @Kolya Krassotkin
    If women must like each other to work together effectively in a team effort, imagine what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?

    Replies: @AndrewR, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon, @Brutusale, @Almost Missouri

  105. @Alyosha
    Joe DiMaggio has the second most rings, 9, of all time behind Yogi Berra and was well known among teammates as a sour loner particularly off-field. He wasn't as famously as much of a asshole as Ty Cobb, Roger Hornsby, or Ted Williams, but he was pretty well disliked by his teammates. All those championships, the mystique and playing for the Yankees helped shield him from most of the wider public having as poor of a reputation as he had among players, though he also wasn't quite as aggressively a jerk as the others I mentioned before.

    Replies: @Brutusale

    Williams was hated by the Boston press, not his teammates. And MLB AL pitchers.

    • Replies: @Alyosha
    @Brutusale

    Fair enough, maybe, or at least some of his teammates. But it's a pretty well undisputed fact that Boston Red Sox fans hated him, and he hated the fans. He frequently told people that he hated the city of Boston and wanted to play somewhere else.

  106. Baseball is a little skewed in that it’s really an individual sport where the outcomes are binary. That is, whenever your contribution to the team is poor, it’s obvious. So baseball might not be the best sport to evaluate team orientation, as few people want to look bad, and there just isn’t a whole lot of chemistry necessary.

    Having said that, I agree with the principle that men are more team-oriented, and it’s pretty obvious once you are aware of it.

    I do think that modern society devalues this to a great extent; even in corporations, people that prioritize themselves over the team (provided they disguise this) are rewarded.

  107. @prosa123
    @Curle

    “But women are on average smaller and weaker ”
    You are right, but apparently missed the ‘CrossFit will equalize the sexes’ debate on another thread.


    Tia-Clair Toomey at the recent CrossFit Games.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rju7ZZTL5R8

    Replies: @Nicholas Stix, @Joe862, @Curle

    CrossFit games. Forty men and forty women worldwide, at least until recently when the numbers were increased because, it appears, the CrossFit copyright holder needs \$\$ from participation fees. Apparently, revenues are down.

    Now you know what forty women worldwide on steroids (?) look like.

  108. @Charles Pewitt
    https://twitter.com/HonestLarry1/status/1550120211499470852?s=20&t=JuLO4yRBZwzkenZKH_eJDA

    https://twitter.com/baseballinpix/status/1461454174319566855?s=20&t=JuLO4yRBZwzkenZKH_eJDA

    Replies: @Ganderson

    Then there was the 1950’s Cubbies trio, Smalley to Miskis to Addison; Addison being the street that runs along the first baseline of the “Friendly Confines”…

  109. @Steve Sailer
    @jamie b.

    I think the economics/property rights/contractual side of rock bands make them trouble. (Also, the drugs.)

    Replies: @Buzz Mohawk, @Reg Cæsar

    I think the economics/property rights/contractual side of rock bands make them trouble.

    I was surprised to learn that Bruce Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt were huge fans of the Dave Cark Five growing up. (But why not? If New York is the Fab Four, New Jersey is the DC5.)

    Springsteen did take after Clark in one important respect: his bandmates were, and still are, hirelings. E Street is not level! Most rock (and roll) groups were partnerships, like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, and (I presume) Beach Boys.

    It would be interesting to go through all the “Joe and the Blow(s)” groups to see which way each was structured. In the case of the pre-rock big bands, one assumes the bandleader was the boss in every way.

  110. @jamie b.
    Doesn't seem to apply to rock bands...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Curle, @Erik L, @TWS

    Doesn’t it? I don’t have a good sense of how well or poorly many bands got on but top rock bands often go ten years.

    Those are almost all entirely male bands. Aside from the Bangles it’s hard to think of an all female band, let alone one that lasted ten years.

    Mixed male and female? Fleetwood Mac obviously, then Heart and maybe Jefferson Airplane/Starhip? Really seems like top female acts tend to be solo singers who can swap out backing bands

    • Replies: @flyingtiger
    @Erik L

    Girlschool of England. First record is 1979 and they are still touring.

  111. @JimDandy
    I wonder if a team comprised of high-performing highly-competitive players who don't particularly like each other might be preferable to a tight-knit team of buddies, due to less forgiveness for failure on the former.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Old Prude

    The saying “A happy employee is a productive employee” needs a caveat.

    Unhappy employees are definitely non-productive, but happy employees can slack off a well as pissers and moaners…

    • Agree: JimDandy
  112. @Unintended Consequence
    This research sounds all well and good but I'd also consider some other configurations. For instance, Gay males often interact in more stereotypically female ways. Would an all male team of homosexuals or mixed gay and straight get similar results. I doubt it. Another consideration might be ethnicity. Are all male teams still effective when team members have different cultures? I've observed some marked personality differences across cultures. Some males seem like they'd prefer to fight than get any work done. Of course, I'm a female so my observations will have been when I was part of the group. Perhaps insecure males have trouble being subordinate when women are watching.

    Replies: @Anon, @Almost Missouri

    ay males often interact in more stereotypically female ways. Would an all male team of homosexuals or mixed gay and straight get similar results. I doubt it.

    Agree. This was among the reasons that the Sec. Def. Colin Powell said that “homosexuality is inconsistent with military service”, though perhaps had he stated the case more definitely, the Poz wouldn’t be so advanced in the armed services today.

  113. @Anon
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?
     
    Is it just if they dislike each other? According to the study, don’t issues arise if the person they dislike is male?

    In any case, and given the integration of women into the military, the government, and the workplace, it would appear to be important to know what makes a woman like or dislike someone. If we know what determines their likes and dislikes, we can appeal to those tastes and avoid the organizational and political problems.

    Does anyone have ideas? What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Buzz Mohawk, @Almost Missouri

    What causes a woman to like someone or dislike someone?

    If only someone had ever developed any answers to this…

    • LOL: Paul Jolliffe
  114. @Kolya Krassotkin
    If women must like each other to work together effectively in a team effort, imagine what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    Or with the inability of women who dislike each other to work effectively together, with so many countries in western Europe now being led by women, how does this effect the world of diplomacy?

    Replies: @AndrewR, @The Wild Geese Howard, @Anon, @Brutusale, @Almost Missouri

    what the repercussions must be for women working effectively together in military operations. How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?

    Already happening, no Chinese opponent needed.

    https://theothermccain.com/2018/06/17/tip-pentagon-covering-up-fact-that-female-officers-nearly-sank-navy-ship/

    During the early weeks after the USS Fitzgerald was speared by a lumbering Philippine container ship, it was noteworthy that the captain and a couple of admirals were publicly named, but not the actual officer in charge, the officer of the deck. (OOD) The other person who should have kept the Fitz out of trouble is the person in charge of the combat information center, the Tactical Action Officer. That individual is supposed to be monitoring the combat radar, which can detect a swimmer at a distance of two miles.
    Not until a year later, when the final reports are made public and the guilty parties have been court-martialed, does the truth come out. The OOD was named Sarah, and the Tactical Action Officer was named Natalie, and they weren’t speaking to each other!!! The Tactical Action Officer would normally be in near constant communication with the OOD, but there is no record of any communication between them that entire shift!

    • Thanks: Kolya Krassotkin
  115. @Stan Adams
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The other day I was listening to Smetana's "Moldau" when I thought to myself, "Hey, James Horner plagiarized this, as well!"

    Seriously, compare the first parts of both pieces:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G4NKzmfC-Q

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4uamC1ccgY

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    The other day I was listening to Smetana’s “Moldau”

    Ain’t nothing wrong with Moldau poasting

    https://www.unz.com/jfreud/whit-stillman-and-the-philosophy-of-dance/#comment-5032710

  116. I learned this years ago from a season of Survivor on CBS. To tweak the game they arranged the two teams by males and females (this wouldn’t be allowed today as it reinforces the binary). The women quickly bonded on grrlpower and how fabulously they got along with one another. Of course when things got tough and since the game involves lying and subterfuge, the women took it personally and major rifts occured. One woman tired of the infighting used her female charms to get close to the men’s team which was a good strategy since the two teams are combined eventually. The surviving women were happy were their (former) leader was booted off the island. A man won in the end.

  117. @ScarletNumber
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Steve's point is that Donald Trump definitely had George Steinbrenner as an influence, while Trump and Finley never crossed paths. As for Finley, his biggest contribution to pop culture was his hiring of a young MC Hammer as Oakland A's batboy and to be his eyes and ears on the ground when he was in Chicago. Reggie Jackson noticed that the new batboy looked like Hank Aaron, and so gave him the nickname of Hammer.

    https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/private/t_2x1/t_w1536/mlb/lqgvr61h6pji2mdp81go.jpg

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “Steve’s point is that Donald Trump definitely had George Steinbrenner as an influence, while Trump and Finley never crossed paths.”

    My point was that to a large extent, Steinbrenner was directly influenced by Charles Finley. Unlike George Steinbrenner (at least for the first 15-20 yrs of his ownership of NY), Finley won 3 consecutive WS during the ’70’s and was directly responsible for the volatile personality of a new MLB owner. It was Finley, not George, who set the template of an off the wall, and very, very public owner (which directly went vs a century of MLB ownership.) Before Finley, MLB owners always assumed a low profile, and usually made it a point not to make the papers, much less the front pages for various controversial sayings or endeavors. That is all directly traced to Finley. Before Finley, the closest that one could find was Bill Veech, who was basically a carny barker. Unlike Finley, Veech got lucky with CLE and later CHI, whose teams were developed by previous ownership. Veech stepped in and took credit for teams that largely were not his making.

    “As for Finley, his biggest contribution to pop culture was his hiring of a young MC Hammer as Oakland A’s batboy and to be his eyes and ears on the ground when he was in Chicago.”

    Actually, he did a few more things than just MC.

    The DH, was a large part of his suggestions that were implemented.

    For the first time in AL history, Finley showed how a small market team could utilize the draft. Previous ownership of the A’s (first in PHI and later KC) would simply have a fire sale and unload their prospects and better starters to competitive clubs for cash. Finley held onto his players, and used the new draft to build the team from within.

    In some ways, Finley’s legacy in this aspect of player development ranks alongside legendary HOF GM Branch Rickey, who didn’t have the benefit of the 1965 draft, which started the rule that the lowest finishing teams could have the top draft picks the following year. Instead of trading away/selling his best draft picks, Finley’s organization developed the players, brought them up to KC/OAK, and started them right away. The OAK teams that won the WS in the early ’70’s were a very young team.

    Speaking of MC, he narrates this documentary.

  118. @ScarletNumber
    @Rich

    The Yankees were more mediocre than bad in the early 70s, but since only 4 teams made the playoffs back then those teams are remembered as being worse than they really were. The wife-swap took place in 73 and the Yankees finished 80-82 that year. The next year they would have been the first Wild Card at 89-73, but as the Orioles won 91 that year they simply went home.

    Replies: @Rich, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “The Yankees were more mediocre than bad in the early 70s, but since only 4 teams made the playoffs back then those teams are remembered as being worse than they really were.”

    This has to be placed in the proper context.

    From 1920-64, NY won 29 AL Pennants and 20 WS Championships. Less than ten yrs prior, they were playing in the WS. So historically from NY’s perspective of two generations that grew up watching their home town team playing for a WS, the late ’60’s and early ’70s teams were disastrous. Why? Because they were not winning. They were losers, just like all those sub-standard clubs that ate their dust for 45 consecutive years.

    Thus, the Yankees of 1965-75, from an historical standpoint, were quite awful. The standard had been set in the ’20’s, and it was about winning. Not going .500. Not finishing in 2nd place. But winning.

    And it was probably especially galling to fans to watch HOF’s Mantle, and Ford, and (briefly) stellar players such as Tresh, Richardson, Maris, to finish their careers/stints with NY on losing teams, when for two generations they were champs. Mel Stottlemeyer, who had been brought up in ’64, and played in the final WS with that classic era team, to then spend the next decade on mediocre losing teams, was the reminder of what NY once was, what they had been, but they were no longer: winners.

    Could also make a similar case for NY 1B Don Mattingly, he came up in ’82 (the year after NY appeared in the WS) and retired in 1995, the year before NY won the WS.

    Historically for NY, mediocrity = losing = failure.

    No other club in MLB history symbolizes winning like NY. None. That’s their entire identity. Even casual fans or people who don’t follow baseball have heard of NY. When one thinks of NY, they think winning.

  119. @Hapalong Cassidy
    @Steve Sailer

    I’m sure that Jordan and Pippen didn’t particularly like Dennis Rodman either, but everyone knew that those two were the only ones with the combined willpower to keep Rodman’s craziness in check.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Arguably the greatest rebounder in history, and definitely the best rebounder for his height. The way he’d tip it to himself, multiples times, to get the board was pretty great. He was exactly what that team needed. Horace Grant’s departure left a hole–there were all kinds of tensions between Grant and Jordan and others, but they got the job done.

  120. @jamie b.
    Doesn't seem to apply to rock bands...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Curle, @Erik L, @TWS

    Can’t think of a single difference between a rock band and a sports team.

  121. @Erik L
    @jamie b.

    Doesn't it? I don't have a good sense of how well or poorly many bands got on but top rock bands often go ten years.

    Those are almost all entirely male bands. Aside from the Bangles it's hard to think of an all female band, let alone one that lasted ten years.

    Mixed male and female? Fleetwood Mac obviously, then Heart and maybe Jefferson Airplane/Starhip? Really seems like top female acts tend to be solo singers who can swap out backing bands

    Replies: @flyingtiger

    Girlschool of England. First record is 1979 and they are still touring.

  122. @Unintended Consequence
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Another woman being prettier happens with a great degree of regularity. Most women learn to cope with this reality early in life. Haven't you ever noticed that beautiful women often have a bevy of less attractive friends who may function as her ladies-in-waiting or be the pretty friend of nerdier females. While I can't quite explain how this works, it does seem to have something to do with the beauty queen being able to switch modes of interacting and just be one of the gals. I'd say conflict would be more likely with two females of more equal attractiveness. (I had an issue with bad feelings between two of my friends at a party where they took a spontaneous dislike to one another. Both were hot chicks.) Doesn't this happen with alpha males as well?

    Replies: @Anon

    There was an incredible amount of female liberal antagonism to Sarah Palin simply because of Palin’s looks. That was a classic case.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Anon


    There was an incredible amount of female liberal antagonism to Sarah Palin simply because of Palin’s looks.
     
    Was it her looks or was it her fertility?

    Replies: @flyingtiger

  123. @Anon
    @Unintended Consequence

    There was an incredible amount of female liberal antagonism to Sarah Palin simply because of Palin's looks. That was a classic case.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    There was an incredible amount of female liberal antagonism to Sarah Palin simply because of Palin’s looks.

    Was it her looks or was it her fertility?

    • Replies: @flyingtiger
    @Anonymous

    Both

  124. @AndrewR
    @Kolya Krassotkin

    Finland's clubgirl prime minister just decreed that no Russian citizens should be allowed tourist visas in Europe. Apparently this is supposed to make Russians support Ukraine more? I don't get her logic at all.

    Replies: @anonymouseperson

    I always thought Russia was a part of Europe. Silly me.

  125. @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Kolya Krassotkin


    How many ships will the Chinese sink because Captain Shanaynay refused to speak to Commander Karen?
     
    CVN-72, the USS Abraham Lincoln is going to be an interesting test case.

    Here is her current commander:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Bauernschmidt

    Be right back, I'm off to Costco to buy popcorn in bulk.

    Replies: @duncsbaby, @Kolya Krassotkin

    Re: Amy Bauernschmidt

    She used to be a man, right?

  126. @Anonymous
    @Anon


    There was an incredible amount of female liberal antagonism to Sarah Palin simply because of Palin’s looks.
     
    Was it her looks or was it her fertility?

    Replies: @flyingtiger

    Both

  127. @Astorian
    Baseball is a team sport, but it doesn’t require much interaction among most of the players. Oh, the pitchers and the catcher have to be on the same page, and the shortstop has to be in sync with the second baseman, but otherwise? Reggie Jackson can hit homers even if Thurman Munson hates him, and Steve Garvey can still drive in 100 runs even if Reggie Smith thinks he’s a phony and a dork. In baseball, selfishness doesn’t really hurt the team. If I do my job well, it automatically helps my teammates, even the ones who hate me.

    It can be very different in football and basketball. If the left tackle hates the quarterback, he may not work as hard to protect him. If the point guard hates the high scoring forward, he may not pass to him.

    Replies: @Emil Nikola Richard

    Point guards are paid for assists.

    When they are on court running at full speed nobody has any energy for animosity. Also if a lineman lets down in protection it shows up on the film from four different camera angles and every single play gets graded by multiple graders.

  128. It would be very helpful to know what makes a woman like someone else.

    What do I need to do in order to have a woman like me? What do I need to do or not do to keep a woman from disliking me?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Anonymous

    Do they even know what makes them like a person over another?

    Ah, the eternal mystery of life.

  129. @Anonymous
    It would be very helpful to know what makes a woman like someone else.

    What do I need to do in order to have a woman like me? What do I need to do or not do to keep a woman from disliking me?

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Do they even know what makes them like a person over another?

    Ah, the eternal mystery of life.

  130. @J.Ross
    @ScarletNumber

    Is that from the Wondermark comic or is it from something earlier?

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    The former. It was coined 2014 and immediately took hold, the ultimate mot juste.

  131. @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Nicholas Stix

    I personally know two WASP businessmen NYC born and bred with the same blustery, blunt personalities as Trump and Steinbrenner. It is what it is.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    In other words, you served as their corporate lawyer and did their personal bidding because it paid well. No doubt they were Jewish, so you learned some of their tricks along the way.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    @Corvinus

    WASP, you stupid Continental mutt.

    Two days later. You have to circle back to peoples' Comments pages after making your rounds to add to your 2.226M-word droppings. Get an outdoor hobby.

  132. @Corvinus
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    In other words, you served as their corporate lawyer and did their personal bidding because it paid well. No doubt they were Jewish, so you learned some of their tricks along the way.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    WASP, you stupid Continental mutt.

    Two days later. You have to circle back to peoples’ Comments pages after making your rounds to add to your 2.226M-word droppings. Get an outdoor hobby.

  133. @Brutusale
    @Alyosha

    Williams was hated by the Boston press, not his teammates. And MLB AL pitchers.

    https://www.amazon.com/Teammates-Portrait-Friendship-David-Halberstam/dp/0786888679

    Replies: @Alyosha

    Fair enough, maybe, or at least some of his teammates. But it’s a pretty well undisputed fact that Boston Red Sox fans hated him, and he hated the fans. He frequently told people that he hated the city of Boston and wanted to play somewhere else.

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