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I sent out an old tweet saying:

The unforgivable fact of 2020 is that white men have done most of the great things of the last 600 years. This deeply angers many resentful nonwhite people today that their ancestors didn’t accomplish much.

As T.S. Eliot asked: “After such knowledge, what forgiveness?”

And, proving my point, I hit a motherlode of irate Hindu supremacists:

Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

 
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  1. India has never had a cultural continuity similar to China (too many, mostly Muslim invasions). Also, Indian “spirit” is prone to abstractions, but has little use of inventiveness. I know this sounds shallow & stereotypical, but Japanese historian & philosopher Nakamura had argued along similar lines long time ago.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  2. ‘Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?’

    I think we seriously fail to comprehend the Hindu way of looking at reality; this is reflected in Forster’s A Passage to India , where the Muslims turn out to be uncomfortably different — but the one Hindu character is simply incomprehensible. See also some of Gandhi’s less publicized prescriptions.

    Conversely, their ability to grasp and adopt our way of looking at things appears to be more apparent than real; Western rationality and ethics simply turns into glib nonsense in their hands. Witness Raj Chetty’s ‘magic dirt.’

    Now I’m going to sound all Leftist ‘n stuff — but much of what we think of as simply self-evidently objective reality is often a cultural construct. Cultures vary more than people realize; and if the culture is sufficiently alien, the behavior of its adherents will become simply incomprehensible. Even when Indians ape us — or we ape Indians — we don’t get a translation so much as a kind of intellectual monstrosity.

    • Replies: @3g4me
    , @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  3. clyde says:

    Steve, you are doing the needful with these jokers.

  4. Cortes says:

    But everyone uses the dot now.

  5. Cortes says:

    Da Vinci was Indian, of course:

  6. Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    The early Aryans invaders developed all that basic knowledge. But when White India got submerged in a sea of Brownness, their genius went away. Few inventions for the last 2,000 years.

    They had failed to truly maintain the caste system. They needed stronger segregation. My impression is that the “enlightened” Buddha was against the rigid color lines and fought for desegregation.

    And thus destroyed India.

  7. theMann says:

    Same reason as China, Japan, so many other places.

    1. No printing press, and in general, a ban on written materials for anybody but the official ruling class.
    2. No rule of Law, especially Contract Law. Anything you have can be taken, anything you invent some member of the Ruling Class can, and will, take credit for.
    3. No time horizon. Europeans planted vineyards whose production was decades down the road, built Cathedrals that took hundreds of years, and developed Education Systems that launched inquiries whose payoff was in an indefinite future, if ever. Trust in themselves, their Institutions, their instincts, unheard of outside the Roman Empire or Christian West. Even the Muslim world has a shaky record for long-term development.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Thanks: Coemgen
  8. anonymous[126] • Disclaimer says:

    I can’t answer the question but can point out another dynamic behind Indian resentment. Media pundits and editors in India are mostly high caste Hindus. The structure of Indian civilization bestows on high caste Hindus the right to be superior over other Indians. But India is a poor country. The right to be superior and the shame of ownership of an unsuccessful country are the key ingredients of India’s unique flavor of anti-white resentment.

  9. Altai says:

    Hindutva is crazy. People whose sociological background we would consider to imply a lower degree of at least jingoism, make the average Combat 13 member look introspective.

    Indians make Poles and Chinese look like Swedes.

    One of the main guys at Etherium is now rich and living nicely in Canada. But spergs about how white people used to live in caves whilst India was a technological marvel!

    One thing I love about Hindutva is that it has a ‘we wuz kingz’ element in two facets. The ancient Dravidian civilization was utterly destroyed by the Aryan nomads with them writing many poems and epics about just how utterly they destroyed specific named cities, this is backed up by the archeological record. To the point that today the whiter more Aryan North is still poorer than the darker, more Dravidian south.

    So a light-skinned, more Aryan Indian expressing it is pretending to have purchase on the civilisation his ancestors destroyed whilst also pretending that civilisation had flying machines and nukes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva

  10. That notoriously anti-Hindu encyclopedia Wikipedia has this to say about the Kerala school of mathematics:

    Their work, completed two centuries before the invention of calculus in Europe, provided what is now considered the first example of a power series (apart from geometric series). However, they did not formulate a systematic theory of differentiation and integration, nor is there any direct evidence of their results being transmitted outside Kerala.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_school_of_astronomy_and_mathematics

    In short, Taylor series of trig functions are pretty damned cool, and one could fancy that somehow the idea trickled up from Kerala to Britain, but knowing Taylor series of some special functions doesn’t help much in developing the Calculus.

    As for the Jesuits, again according to La Wik, neither Clavius nor Ricci spent time in India, though Ruggieri did, for a little over 6 months, during which time he is said to have learned fluent Malayalam. However, the Keralan works on Taylor series were written in Sanskrit verse. I can’t find any mention of Ruggieri learning Sanskrit. For what it’s worth, Ricci and Ruggieri, are nowadays known as early European Sinologists, and for bringing Euclid to China.

    As for Barrow, he did travel around for a few years, learning languages and mathematics and fighting pirates. Details are here:

    https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Barrow/

    • Replies: @Cato
  11. Ingenuity and necessity were the driving forces which helped to survive in the unpleasant, dull and dark (Tacitus)  nothern European countries. From the 8th century onwards, the forests were (partly, that’s important) cut down and villages and towns developed. According to cultural geographer Werner Bätzing, mills co-evolved with the cities and caused a fruitful bipolarity between the cities and the rural areas in that both enabled a specific kind of progress: The rural areas and the mills there that of technical know-how which started with the development of the water-mills, and the cities (which had just a few mills, but schools and universities) in refining this knowledge on a more abstract level. – Werner Bätzing is onto something, his book is quite insightful:

    https://www.beck-shop.de/baetzing-landleben/product/29965746?adword=google-smec&gclid=CjwKCAjwnef6BRAgEiwAgv8mQbdwdWF5HrK6FfERfCy1odlDEwGqWKmB3_DoFRO7teuJZYB_hz4NeRoCIasQAvD_BwE

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman, ic1000
  12. Jake says:

    I’d say that Indian problem starts with the fact that India’s white Elites evidently had major hippie strains that always kept cropping back up. Buddhism, for example, is best understood as a hippie type attempt to make Hinduism less ‘bad white’ and more likely to produce people who do not remind the many descendants of non-Aryans that they are not Aryan.

    The hippie can have all kinds of high IQ ideas, and even work them out well, but the hippie faith means those ideas will languish eventually because it is far to much like the Man if they are fully developed and produce real world results.

    Dope smoking hippies can talk about, like, Zero, man, and the depth, man, of like, Zero, like forever. But to make the concept of Zero work requires actual hands on, down in the trenches hard work.

    • Replies: @Muggles
  13. India is a fine example of a land of low-trust culture in action. They invent calculus, but realising they have the best thing since sliced bread, which they also invented (they call it Nan), they lock the only copy away and don’t tell anyone about it, much less actually use it to do useful things, like build useful sewage systems (600m of them still shit in open air, and many prefer it that way … communion with nature, etc.). Sure, they build rockets, but only to get back at the West by stealing its technology based on the calculus stolen from India.

    Having watched a group of enterprising Indians essentially steal the investment of a Western company by using the back office it chose to build in Bangalore (smart move, boys) to run the back office of several other companies and not getting caught until some person from a High-trust Western culture decided to pay an in person visit to see why service levels were abysmal beyond the point one would normally expect from the sub-continent, it is surprising they haven’t laid claim to more western greatness. They could even play up the Aryan card.

    But hey, they don’t eat cows and they have a lot of Bhuddists and Swamis, so they must be superior, right?

    All glories to Sri Krishna and all that 🕉

  14. @Altai

    … spergs about how white people used to live in caves whilst India was a technological marvel!

    Wow, now I get what Rev. Louie Farrakhan was spouting on about African flying machines, etc., of which evidence no longer exists. The ancient Indians must have stolen the technology, destroyed all traces of it, and then brought it home and locked it away.

  15. Alice says:

    No Hajnal line for India.

    For the high caste, work is beneath them. That’s what servants are for. Actual effort into application would get their hands dirty. Look at how ornate their henna tattoos are. You sit there for hours and days having your hands done in these outrageous lace-like patterns, cocering all of the skin, which would smudge if you lifted a finger. In the high tech industry I was in, and in grad school, the IIT grad Indians pontificated and bloviated and handwaved. Other Indians did the actual work (badly). But real effort? nope.

    I speculate this has to do w the belief in reincarnation and that being poor and dirty now means you were bad in a past life. In their view, suffering now is an indication you deserve the misery. Work is pain. blessedness in the past is visible by one’s luxury now.

  16. peterike says:

    Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    Because Indians have major bad personality traits like deceitfulness, cheating, back-stabbing and so on. This does not lend itself to application which typically requires some cooperation, something whites are exceptionally good at. Indians also have an odd combination of high extraversion along with low agreeableness. Which leads to a lot of internal conflict.

  17. This is all about resentment and anger – and jealousy.

    I am of British descent –do I get angry and jealous when I read the Roman and Greek stoics, and claim they ‘stole’ that knowledge from a highland druid priest?

    Blacks may have gimme more stuff riots from time to time but South and East Asians are clever, and having lingering anger and hatred (particularly the women), like another hostile elite group – God knows what is store for us in the coming years..

    • Agree: Redman
    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    , @Mj
  18. Jesse says:

    The caste system most likely had an impact. If you outsource all manual labor to ever lower – and less intelligent – groups, then your smarter castes get better and better at abstraction, but less adept (and more hostile towards) the more practical parts of life. And the very lower castes won’t have the means (nutrition, spare time etc) to become extremely good at the practical things, or the ability to select for higher IQ or really good practical skills.

    I’m deeply skeptical of “culture” as an explanation, but it would (if true) be an interesting example of the interplay of culture and the selection processes it both reflects and reinforces.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    , @Chrisnonymous
  19. Technological development does not occur in places that have slaves, or a vast underclass of de-facto slaves. You don’t need steam engines when you have slaves or untouchables to pump the water out of the mines, which is why in Europe it was not discovered until the enlightenment, and why the Romans didn’t invent the horse collar.

    • Replies: @Peterike
    , @Tracy
    , @Anonymous
  20. Well Steve, like the modern Western elites, ancient Indian elites knew there are things the rabble shouldn’t know.

  21. Why does China have such a poor history of abstraction?
    It was shocking reading Chinese philosophy how metaphysics was almost totally absent and only became a significant topic when it was introduced from India via Buddhism. On the other hand, I’m not sure how much anyone has ever been harmed by an absence of metaphysics.

    • Replies: @Sollipsist
    , @Tracy
  22. If only somebody in Indian had thought to make more than one copy of calculus so that when Matteo Ricci stole it, you would still have your own copy.

    That’s just because someone in upstate New York stole the copy of the blueprints for the first Xerox machine before the .Indians could start making copies, dammit!

    • Thanks: Redneck farmer
  23. Anon[256] • Disclaimer says:

    The guy has a blog where he documents his claims. It looks pretty legit that at least some subset of calculus had been developed by a dynastic school of Indian mathematicians. I can’t judge to what extent it anticipated Newton and Leibniz. Like Brazil’s claim to the first airplane, it seems like this Indian calculus claim is well known in India and not completely bogus. Nevertheless, they never did anything useful with this knowledge.

  24. The concept of zero. So the Indians invented nothing?

    • Agree: Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    • LOL: Alden
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    , @Muggles
  25. Creating zero, yes. Creating a universal alphabet that the world can use (letters), that was basically a white thing.

    Steve, regarding white accomplishments/achievements, why limit yourself just to the past 600 yrs? Seems as though whites could go back another 1,000 yrs on top of that as well. At the very least, whites should get a full millennium for their achievements.

  26. The fact that Newton and Leibniz developed calculus independently and concurrently has always struck me as amazingly coincidental. So if someone could prove that these developments were based in theories imported from India, that would help explain the coincidence. But, uhhh, how about some definitive proof first, please.

    Steve, you raise a good point about Indian abstract thought. Zero and Buddhism, among others, are profound contributions to human culture. Perhaps the caste system prevented the development of practical applications of these amazing abstract thoughts? Would it have been considered beneath the dignity of a Brahmin to come up with actual uses for great theoretical developments?

  27. Escher says:

    Indian mathematics is a story about nothing.

    https://youtu.be/EQnaRtNMGMI

  28. BB753 says:

    Another crazy theory fot the development of calculus is that Newton stole it wholesale from Greek hermetic writings dating back to the second century AD. Though it’s a fact that Newton was into the occult and hermeticism.

  29. My only response:

    You have totally missed the point of the poem:

    Gerontion

    • Replies: @Sollipsist
  30. Ian Smith says:

    “ Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?”

    The Indian caste system and the disdain for getting one’s hands dirty would seem to be conducive to the theoretical being cut off from practical application. Europe was different. Even in an ultra-effete setting as Rococo France, the upper class were expected to have hobbies and skills (ex. Louis XVI and lock smithing.)

  31. Altai says:

    Also OT: They’re going ahead with the dark gritty Fresh Prince reimagining. Some guy made a spec trailer for a film project last year and now he has a 2 season order with Will Smith involved, looks interesting. Be interesting how the tone shifts with everything that has happened though. It looks a bit like it was implying the honour culture of the streets was part of the problem. And uncle Phil is sounding a bit like that retired black police captain that got killed trying to stop the looting.

  32. Barnard says:

    For people that are supposed to be smart, do they not understand how stupid this sounds? Saying two missionaries stole calculus is right up there with “we was kangz.”

  33. V. Hickel says:

    This is why they have a point when they say society is white sipremacist. It is , but only in the sense that it was created by and for said whites. All others are merely guests – but guests to whom we have offered the opportunity of joining in, contributing to, and profiting from that which they had no part in creating

    All this in exchange for simply CONFORMING to the rules of host society. Too much to ask? Apparently, yes. For many/most anyway, and trying to sort them out at this point is simply not worth the effort. They have to go back. All of them. REPAtRiATIONS YES!!!

  34. @NJ Transit Commuter

    I think the “dignity of the Brahmin” does indeed make it belittling to do any actual work, even if its creative labor. It is case of those blasted lower castes failing their master in making ideas work. You kinda see that mindset with the modern, white liberal of today. Anyway whoever created calculus, I still hate you almost 50 years later of taking it. The math class that humbled me.

  35. @NJ Transit Commuter

    So say Leibniz stayed in England and had considerable contact with Newton’s acquaintances. He even corresponded with Newton about it, but Newton was evasive and cryptic. He sent him an anagram that didn’t reveal much but the words fluent and fluxion. So leibniz was aware of the general direction of investigations.

    However, it’s well known in the history of science that major ideas often occur concurrently in more than one place. Eg Darwin and Wallace independently discovering evolution by natural selection. The reason for this may be that the level of knowledge reaches a point in a civilization where the idea becomes (relatively) obvious, and several scholars will independently connect the dots. Heisenberg and schrodingers formulations of quantum mechanics, packet switching in internet science was invented three different places. The examples are myriad. Steve probably knew all this.

    As for the Indian history of mathematical prowess, all of these discoveries were made by a small subgroup, the Brahmin caste. This were an endogamous priestly caste who were supposedly the genetic remnant of the ancient aryan invaders who brought Sanskrit to India. They have been characterized as the Jews of India. Ramanujan was a Brahmin. Chandreskar, Narain the novelist, Tagore the novel prize winning poet, v anand the chess world champion, all Brahmin. Someone once gestimated to me that much of the software industry in the us was a product of (underpaid) Brahmin genius! Calculus Gallery by William Dunham has some good info on Indian calculus. They didn’t invent the fundamental theorem, so that is the goalpost for inventing calculus in the opinion of most historians. One thing they did beat Europeans to was the series formula for the trigonometric functions, an impressive feat!

    Back to the main question. Brahmins were an impressive but small and closed high iq philosophical subset. Their ideas were not shared with and implemented by most of the people around them.

  36. @Altai

    Just watched it, a useful reference tool, thanks.

    It’s like an encyclopedia of everything that makes black people so stultifyingly tedious and uninteresting.

    They live in an emotional cartoon. Nancy and Sluggo have more sophisticated inner lives.

    • LOL: Clyde, JMcG
    • Replies: @Altai
    , @Clyde
  37. Flemur says:

    That settles it, I’m moving to Indiana!

    • Replies: @anon
  38. anon[983] • Disclaimer says:

    Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction but a weak one of application?

    Largely answered by your most important disciple. HBDChickism says: inbred castes are doomed to low trust. Will not make and spread sufficient copies of knowledge to keep one of their own.

    Ironically, Newton himself could be quite jealous of his discoveries. But not all the time. And he wasn’t acting in a low-trust society.

  39. Pepian says:
    @Altai

    Perhaps similar interlopers are the conquistador descendants south of the border pretending they stand for the indigenous Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas cultures their ancestors colonized.

  40. Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    Simultaneous cultural threads:

    1. Top-down … this is very, very, very strong and when it’s adhered to it is adhered to with such a smile by all parties that it’s hard for an outsider to notice that everyone is playing along with place-on-totem-pole – it can easily be mistaken for collegiality among peers but it’s just B-deferring- obsequiously-to-A

    I think what Americans expect is a kind of braggadocio from higher-ups when these chains exist but in Indian culture when the lower defers to the higher, the higher responds with magnanimity that can be mistaken for collegiality, it isn’t – if you act like a peer to one who perceives he’s a superior, you will be in for a long hoe to tread – more or less I’m trying to say Americans and westerners often mis-read what they are seeing and experiencing among Indian crowds

    2. Unlike wealth and possessions, education-can’t-be-taken (so it is valued) and it’s corollary – people take things from you all the time … so people value education as one thing no one can steal and this is in addition to the fruits of Sanskrit which seem similar to Greek in their ability to confer a sense of the abstract in ways other grammars don’t

    These two forces end up at contradistinction – the lower, often does know, a lot more than the higher, but just, won’t, say, so, out, loud … and will keep his peace all the while that the ship sinks, so long as that top-down harmony is maintained.

    This is particularly difficult in application because – it’s likely that the lower has been out in the field and learned all the practical lessons, from experience, that are critical to excellent application, but the lower isn’t permitted to inform the higher of key information, or else self-censors. The higher, knowledgeable or not, calls the shots.

  41. Dash says:

    As an Indian and a Brahmin, I would say the Caste system was probably the biggest barrier to the practical application of abstract knowledge in India. Craftsmen of all types are not respected and most belong to lower castes. Brahmins are practically prohibited from many types of manual labor. In my state, a rural land-owning Brahmin must hire someone else to till the land to this day. The sort of skilled tool makers in the UK, Germany, Switzerland etc who played an essential role in the Industrial revolution have no counterparts in India.

    On the flip side, the Caste System is an extreme form of division of labor. Adam Smith thought division of labor was essential for economic growth. Think of his pin-makers story. It could be India’s division of labor was just too rigid.

    Finally, India was not unique in this aspect. Think of Greeks proving theorems vs. Romans building aqueducts. Even the English upper classes were very rigid (which is probably why they understood the Caste System) for a long time.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  42. Zimriel says:
    @Altai

    The Indus Civilisation genetics are in, and they are NOT South Indian. Dravidian is a family all of southern languages except for Brahui, which migrated northward in mediaeval times.
    Some Dravidian was likely spoken in Indus by South Indian merchants traveling north, but the city leaders of Indus certainly spoke something else. Burusho is an isolate around the Indus, still surviving, and looks likely. Or maybe an Elamite dialect. But Dravidian? no.

  43. My post may have had too many links so shall try again… Read about the “Kerala school” at Wikipedia, in particular section on transmission to Europe.

    I suspect that the real significance of such “made in India” claims is for the future – they will help integrate modern science and technology into the mass culture of the emerging Hindu superpower. Though the actual technical elite of India will probably be a mix of believers that India is the source of everything, and secularists who look down on that narrative.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  44. Anonymous[875] • Disclaimer says:

    Calculus roots in India –
    https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/56-calculus-was-developed-in-medieval-india

    Pythagoras theorem – known in India three thousand years ago, which, taken in combination with Pythagoras’ belief in reincarnation and vegetarianism, is at least somewhat suggestive that he took it from the Hindus.

    http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/courses/m309-01a/kong/sulbasutra_geometry.htm

    Fibonacci sequence –
    http://people.cst.cmich.edu/salis1bt/courses/uconn/math102f07/the%20fibonacci%20sequence.pdf

    Algebra
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4cf3/d94286c2e936247b2beab5adadf0c4dea701.pdf

    Algorithms
    https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-93-86279-25-5_7

    Fractals
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360132307000273

    And of course, all this is above and beyond the well known stuff, like the Hindu numerals and zero.

    As to why they never managed to pull off anything in the last five hundred years – Hindus spent 800 years fighting Islamic imperialism. Pretty much the only warm weather civilization to successfully survive Islam, other than the Spanish.

    Northern Europe managed to fight off the Arabs and Turks, but they were significantly advantaged by the cold Winters. Europe survived, but it is telling that “Christendom” did not survive intact. All of North Africa, the Levant and Turkey were Christian states that the Muslims picked off. Europe managed to survive the onslaught in no small part because the Winters are cold and medieval armies couldn’t easily conquer northward.

    And after 800 years of Islam, when Hindus were just about successful in our reconquista, we were met with 200 years of the British.

    Hindu intellectual development was abruptly slowed a thousand years ago. Since then, it’s all been about surviving, not luxuries like intellectualism. Compare and contrast with the history of Greek intellectual development, which too was completely stopped by Islam. Western Europe may lay claims to Greek civilizational legacy, but honestly, Greek civilizational was grievously wounded after christianization, and completely destroyed after the fall of Constantinople.

    • Replies: @HA
  45. Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    You’ve answered your own question here. The number-thought of each culture is one of its most characteristic prime symbols and reveals the manner in which it thinks about and experiences the world. The Greek-Roman magnitude (sturdily written out in columnar Roman numerals), the Magian al-jabr (the alchemical search for the missing quantity), and the Faustian function (the projection of power into space) are all consonant with the art, architecture, and philosophy of those respective cultures.

    The one culture to hit upon “zero” as a number—that is, to declare emptiness one of the chief experiential qualities of the world—discloses in all its other activities a sublime ethos of will-lessness that is almost the polar opposite of the Faustian will-to-power.

    It should be admitted here that Western mathematics is unique in being from its very beginnings nothing but practical application. It is not theoretical at all; rather, the formulae are modified over and over again until they correspond with actuality. This is unusual and somewhat inconsistent with the true nature of mathematical contemplation. Only one culture has ever done it, and only for a few feverish centuries that are already drawing to a close.

    • Thanks: Chrisnonymous
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  46. anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    To be fair knowing calculus may have no benefit to the Indian farmer, hair dresser, clothes maker etc… The only benefit in this instance is pay to the teacher who teaches it and to the administrators who over see the education. The number of people who actually need to know calculus and apply it may be wee small. It isn’t possible that the whole world spend their day tinker with numbers and counting trillions of dollars; what would you eat?

  47. Anonymous[875] • Disclaimer says:
    @Altai

    Absolutely false.

    North India was the center of Indian religious, intellectual and artistic culture until the extraordinarily brutal Muslim conquests, where India lost 80 million people.

    The southern States are more developed today in no small part because the North was ravaged by Islam far more than the South. Because they came from the northwest.

    Just look at what happened to Baghdad after a single genocidal Mongol conquest- from being the intellectual capital of the world to a crap backwater.

    • Agree: Zimriel
    • Thanks: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @nebulafox
    , @anon
  48. @Altai

    In west Philadelphia born and raised
    On the playground I spent most of my days
    Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool
    And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school
    When a couple of Proud Boys, up to no good
    Started making trouble in my neighbourhood

    • LOL: JohnnyWalker123
  49. Don’t forget that the Indians returned the favor by stealing nationalism from the Brits.

    How Dare They!

    Yes. They saw the power of the nation state when the Brits dominated India. So they formed the Indian National movement and ended up in 1947 with not one but two nation states!

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  50. Thatgirl says:

    Einstein said, about the Japanese that, while they were intelligent, they seemed to prefer to apply their brains to artistic and aesthetic concerns rather than intellectual pursuits. For this he was posthumously eviscerated as a horrible racist, of course.

    It seems Indians, likewise, may have a natural predisposition to esoteric spiritual concerns. I was just watching the Indian matchmaking show on Netflix. One of the participants visits with an Indian astrologer, who by day is a an aerospace engineer.

    • Replies: @NOTA
  51. Svigor says:

    If only somebody in Indian had thought to make more than one copy of calculus so that when Matteo Ricci stole it, you would still have your own copy.

    Brutal.

  52. JMcG says:
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Why is Buddhism such a profound contribution? Serious question.

  53. OFF TOPIC

    Mostly Peaceful up-and-coming photographer-of-color is framed up by the
    Man:

    A Minneapolis photographer is charged with raping three women repeatedly over extended periods of time, when he would also beat and keep them captive in his home.

    Den-Zell Gilliard is an up-and-coming photographer, having been mentored by McKnight award-winning Twin Cities photographers Wing Young Huie and Inna Valin.

    Gilliard’s photography was included in a Gordon Parks/Jamel Shabazz exhibit that opened in January at the Minnesota Museum of American Art in St. Paul. Before the corona­virus pandemic, Gilliard was scheduled in April to appear at the museum to discuss Parks’ influence on his career.

    A spokeswoman [?] said the museum had removed all social media references to Gilliard in light of the charges.

    Gilliard used his background in photography to lure in at least one of the women, according to the charges.

    Prosecutors allege that Gilliard victimized the women at his home in the 4000 block of S. Oakland Avenue in much the same pattern using intimidation, blackmail, captivity and threats to their lives and reputations over many months.

    The case filed Monday came after the woman told an investigator last month that Gilliard had been raping her starting in spring 2016 until summer 2017.

    https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-photographer-accused-of-raping-terrorizing-three-women/

  54. Bannon says:

    At one time I thought the “white man stole it” thing was going to grow and get out of control. But it seems like the goal is more to hide from history all the things that white men did, so there’s not even a need to get into stealing (at least as it relates to achievements and advances). It seems more like the Narrative now is white men stole land, got a whole bunch of non-whites to “build it” for them, and then that brings us to this moment in history.

    If you had to line up “stolen” narratives for all the achievements of white men over the past, say, 600 years or so, it would look like an incredibly long list of achievements to the current low-information citizen.

    This is one reason, I think, that the woke Left wants things like paintings, statutes, and pictures in books “de-whited.” It is a ridiculous amount of white male faces, especially if Jews are scored as white in this take-down fest.

  55. Anonymous[674] • Disclaimer says:

    Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction

    What is the evidence of that?

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
    , @Yngvar
  56. Zippy says:

    This is related to the whole “black guy invented the light bulb” thing.

    The guy they mean is Lewis Howard Latimer. Latimer joined the Navy at 15 (!) and served in the era of the Civil War. Then he became a patent draftsman; he held several patents on his own, and he did indeed patent an improved method of manufacturing carbons for light bulbs. He didn’t invent the light bulb (and arguably neither did Edison) but he did participate in the incremental improvement of this important technology. He worked for one of Edison’s competitors and then for Edison, and the company which became GE.

    He carved out a professional career in an era in which black Americans faced real bigotry, not microaggressions.

    But he didn’t invent the light bulb. (Or the phone, despite being the draftsman for Alexander Graham Bell’s patent application.)

    Same with these Indian mathematicians. Their accomplishments were impressive. But they didn’t invent calculus. They came up with a lot of the ideas leading up to calculus, but they never got over the hump. There is some question as to whether they influenced the Europeans who influenced Newton and Leibnez, but probably not.

    So why gild the lily with this stuff? These guys — Latimer and the Indian math guys — are impressive even if you tell the truth. They had real accomplishments! Why the need to exaggerate?

    • Thanks: Sam Malone
    • Replies: @Bannon
  57. My impression is that other cultures than European, including Indian, really were most deficient in matters of abstraction.

    There are all kinds of precursors to calculus, for example, to be found in other cultures — as well as many precursors in Europe. But they are severely limited in importance and scope. They lack the generality and abstraction captured in the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus, which both Newton and Liebniz understood and expounded. This is why it is they who are credited with the invention of calculus.

    Again and again, what Western science and mathematics was able to do, which other cultures were not, is to delineate broad theories which allowed expansive, cumulative development of basic fields within disciplines. In some ways, the invention of geometry under the Greeks, culminating in the axiomatic method of Euclid, represents the unique, pivotal contributions of the West. No other culture developed such an abstract and comprehensive account of geometry, at any time before or after.

    Perhaps Ramanujan can stand as a proxy for the differences between Western mathematicians and those of India. He was, as a calculator, perhaps second to none in all of mathematics. But he was incapable of careful, abstract generalization and thought. There’s no way mathematics could grow into the body of knowledge we enjoy today if it were only mathematicians of Ramanujan’s stripe who contributed, however many.

  58. Anonymous[674] • Disclaimer says:
    @Altai

    To the point that today the whiter more Aryan North is still poorer than the darker, more Dravidian south.

    Why does it follow that the Aryan north would be poorer than the Dravidian south?

    • Replies: @indocon
    , @Alden
  59. Gordo says:

    OT sorry but still no change on this one you had up earlier Steve:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53780094

    So looking very hoaxy, anyone out there a journo who can ask the British Army for info?

  60. The idiot Hindutva has got a point about linguistics. This guy was truly awesome:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81%E1%B9%87ini

    (The rest is just very, very dumb.)

  61. Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    Probably too much pie in the sky Om or Aum chanting. I am reminded of Abbie Hoffman plus Allen Ginsberg and their attempts to levitate the Pentagon?

    Despite the veneer of modernity Indians are superstitious and fatalistic by nature e.g. astrology, palm reading and social predestination.

    To be fair the Chinese also invented gunpowder but Boxer rebels tried to take on European powers with martial arts and supernatural ‘powers’. Many still believe in pseudoscientific stuff like feng shui.

  62. Apart from HBD as well as living in hostile environments cited by someone above, my hypothesis is linkages also accelerated European scientific achievements alongside improvements to ideas borrowed from other cultures.

    One of the best documentaries in English about this is Connections, a really old 10-episode television series created, written, and presented by science historian James Burke . Two more editions were made.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)

  63. Possumman says:
    @Altai

    All I know is that he better stay out of that swimming pool.

  64. anon[446] • Disclaimer says:

    The caste system resulting from the Aryan cow-herders severely limited the spread of whatever genetic elements are key to intelligence. When most people are boxed into a specific role and kept far away from the elite rulers, whose mating patterns are endogamic then the smart fraction of that society will remain small. Maybe very small.

    There is also a subtle difference between “to know” and “to do” that IMO is not really investigated. If the height of civilization is to contemplate then knowledge must spread rather slowly. But if contemplation isn’t sufficient, if demonstration is important in a societal sense, then knowledge will spread faster.

    It is the difference between the theoretic and the practice. The abstract thinker and the engineer. If fame and glory inhere to the man who demonstrates his ability, then it’s not enough to figure out the calculus, one has to do something with it. Maybe calculate ballistic trajectories of cannon balls…

    Not to get all Jared Diamond, but geography plays a role. Rome was in the middle of the Med, the world lake, and had to keep commerce going. The Romans weren’t all that big on theory, but they had plenty of applied science of the time. Ancient Rome had some engineering marvels, including the secret of cement. India is almost an island in terms of ancient-world travel. Once the Aryan invaders had divvied up their conquests, the charioteers didn’t have as much to do. The not quite so ancient elite Indian princes in their palaces could afford to divide their time between mathematics and writing erotic poetry, because they didn’t have to actually produce anything beyond some degree of rulership.

  65. I find it fascinating that Indians, at least those in the public sphere, are at the forefront of championing some of the most virulent anti white rhetoric. I suspect that they, and the Han Chinese, find it useful to get a leg up by neutralizing their competitors. Plus they can say that things like achievement, rational thought, and individualism are all tools of the White Supremacist Devil, even as they use those same tools to enrich themselves.

  66. It could have something to do with their philosophies/religions tending to go inward in an effort to avoid suffering in this world vs. Christianity’s emphasis on doing good works in this world as proof of your way into a heaven that comes later.

    VS.

    Another question is why are the Indians getting so butt hurt about this? They are like Brazilians who insist that Alberto Santos-Dumont was the first to fly. Is it something about insanely diverse-and-dirty, stratified countries?

  67. @NJ Transit Commuter

    The fact that Newton and Leibniz developed calculus independently and concurrently has always struck me as amazingly coincidental. So if someone could prove that these developments were based in theories imported from India, that would help explain the coincidence.

    Do you also believe in aliens ? Because I have a UFO to sell you. Theories from India, righty-o. I’d rather believe in ancient knowledge stolen by evil white witches from Wakanda.

    There is nothing particularly amazing about this coincidence – that was the period when the modern science was born. Oh, and they did not invent calculus – the ideas were in the air in Europe and some calculus theorems had already been proven. Newton developed calculus to solve several physics problems, while Leibniz invented the calculus notation that we use today (and maybe stole some ideas from Newton in the process). Both of them worked as much on philosophy and metaphysics, if not more.

    PS Indians did not “invent zero”. That is another wild idea that is widely being used a propaganda tool. Greeks used zeroes in their math and astronomy, and who knows before and after them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  68. Anon[272] • Disclaimer says:

    Whether a culture can pass on innovations depends entirely on whether the soil is fertile. There always has to be someone about as smart as you who could understand what you did, who in turn passes on the information to another pupil about as smart. If there are breaks in this chain, knowledge dies. A culture has to have a certain minimum amount of smart people to be able to pass on advanced knowledge.

    Secondly, politics cannot interfere. China, for example, has a long history of emperors shutting down technological advances because they were paranoid about the state being overthrown. I’m not sure if India had the same problem, but they could very well have. Many cultures have viewed innovations as anti-religious and been hostile to them.

    • Replies: @Ancient Briton
  69. tyrone says:

    OK all you high IQ Indians ,China is squatting on your territory and may decide to really start kicking your ass while you’re piling on whitey………..

  70. Dave says:

    Because “application” generally means the invention of labor-saving devices and methods. There is little motivation to do this when you have such a vast underclass that menial labor costs almost nothing.

  71. Jesse says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Indians get so touchy about this because it’s all they have. It’s the difference between a broken window, and the foundation of your house being destroyed. Neither are good, but one is an annoyance and one is a catastrophe.

  72. Deadite says:

    I’m always impressed by the Indian sewage systems and how we in the west stole them, bricks, shiite, and all, and transported them back to Paris, London, and Rome.

    Thank the cows for Indian ingenuity! We now have flush toilets!

    Too bad we didn’t leave them any. Oh well. Tough shiite.

    • LOL: Yawrate
  73. utu says:
    @candid_observer

    “the axiomatic method of Euclid, represents the unique, pivotal contributions of the West” – I often wonder why Euclid is not appreciated enough. He should be on the top of every list of greatest mathematicians. Euclid axiomatization of geometry and development of formal proofs and Aristotle formalization of logic made the Western science.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
  74. res says:
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    The fact that Newton and Leibniz developed calculus independently and concurrently has always struck me as amazingly coincidental.

    That kind of thing seems to be more common than we would expect. It makes sense if you think of invention and discovery as evolution and accretion of ideas. Here is some discussion.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery

    Perhaps the caste system prevented the development of practical applications of these amazing abstract thoughts? Would it have been considered beneath the dignity of a Brahmin to come up with actual uses for great theoretical developments?

    I think there is something to that idea. Put differently: theory was valued, practice was not.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    , @Bill
    , @jb
  75. Anonymous[330] • Disclaimer says:
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    The fact that Newton and Leibniz developed calculus independently and concurrently has always struck me as amazingly coincidental

    They weren’t really independent at all. There was a good deal of intellectual flow between England and Germany in those days. Leibniz even visited the Royal Society on more than one occasion and would have met and talked to Newton and his contemporary Natural Philosophers.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @ConservaWhig
  76. Steve, are you familiar with the Archimedes Palimpsest?

    http://archimedespalimpsest.org/about/

    La Wik tells us:

    Using this method, Archimedes was able to solve several problems now treated by integral calculus, which was given its modern form in the seventeenth century by Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz. Among those problems were that of calculating the center of gravity of a solid hemisphere, the center of gravity of a frustum of a circular paraboloid, and the area of a region bounded by a parabola and one of its secant lines. (For explicit details, see Archimedes’ use of infinitesimals.)

    When rigorously proving theorems, Archimedes often used what are now called Riemann sums.[dubious – discuss] In “On the Sphere and Cylinder,” he gives upper and lower bounds for the surface area of a sphere by cutting the sphere into sections of equal width. He then bounds the area of each section by the area of an inscribed and circumscribed cone, which he proves have a larger and smaller area correspondingly. He adds the areas of the cones, which is a type of Riemann sum for the area of the sphere considered as a surface of revolution.

    It’s not exactly calculus, but it was 2400 years ago. Had the romans not murdered the man, and had we not lost his mathematical insights, we might have had the benefits of the Calculus hundreds or thousands of years ago. No Indians required (but maybe they preserved his knowledge?)

  77. Matteo Ricci went to China, not India. He was in the Portuguese colony of Goa from late 1578 until early 1582; he was in China for more than 28 years, traveling to the capital city and discussing science and math with the imperial authorities.

    Oh, and a black man discovered the light bulb. That’s the level of historical accuracy we’re talking about.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  78. Lot says:

    “ Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero“

    Surely with this impressive history you can provide 3 more impressive examples, right?

    Or is the reality that there is more intellectual achievements in any individual large city or county in Europe’s Blue Banana than the whole of India and Sub-Saharan Africa put together?

  79. Anonymous[330] • Disclaimer says:

    Perhaps you underestimate the importance of having the right economic and political structure to take advantage of intellectual developments.

    Consider the situation of post-Roman northern Europe. They had been members of the Roman empire for centuries before it collapsed and were thoroughly Romanicised. Despite that, when the empire withdrew, the whole technological edifice collapsed and didn’t reach the same level for nearly 1000 years. People had the knowledge, for a while, but without the society they couldn’t apply it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Alden
  80. Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    They invented the flush toilet 3,000 years ago. But judging by the recent Poo2Loo campaign, someone seems to have stolen that as well.

    Besides, I thought Amir Aczel discovered that Cambodians invented– really, discovered– zero. Much of the world was already living it!

    The late Terry Jones made a documentary which repeated the claim that Indians “invented” zero.

    Aczel and Jones have gone to that place where they are given the answer. We can no longer ask them.

    • Replies: @Carol
  81. I think it has to do with the societal inertia in a nation of low average IQ. In the USA and Canada, we think of South Asians as pretty smart, but that’s a sampling bias. The ones who are in North America are skimmed from the cream of the society, for the most part. Second and subsequent generations in North America may regress to a different mean, but I’ve seen estimated averages of 85 for Indian IQ.

    That many low IQ members of society seriously impedes progress. The mechanism is unclear, but I suspect is has to do with teamwork as a society. If the janitor doesn’t appreciate why you can’t mop the dusty servers, then no amount of electrical engineering will help keep them running (this is a hypothetical example that I just made up). Something like that.

  82. syonredux says:

    Take that, bigots!

    Nick Longrich:

    The hard science Nobels gave us the atomic bomb; MLK got the Nobel for a peace movement. Toni Morrison got the Nobel for beautiful literature. Obama won the presidency. Maybe Kanye and Dave Chappelle aren’t the same kind of genius as a Fermi or Feynman, but they’re geniuses.

  83. martin_2 says:
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    According to wikipedia, there were several influential European and British mathematicians before Newton and Leibniz, such as Fermat, Barrow, DesCartes, Wallis, Rolle, Cavilieri. The Indian connection appears tenuous and superfluous.

  84. anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    “Christianity’s emphasis on doing good works in this world as proof of your way into a heaven that comes later”

    It’ unfortunate that so many bought into this claptrap. It’s as if there weren’t enough people in their general vicinity to be decent and kind to they traipse around the world to find others while running a backhoe over everyone’s yard to make room for more. Would Jesus have really condemned if we just took care of our own and lived in peace with the world? Does God really reward those who sucker in the biggest flock, is that what it’s all about? I think they are at the point that they are telling God what God will believe. I can’t imagine how many times they change the bible to suit what ever new group that comes in.
    If what these people say is true, I have feeling hell will be less full.

  85. LOL, you’re in for it now, Steve. There was an epic Twitter war between Scott Greer and Hindu nationalists last year. Hilarious stuff. It all kicked off with Scott’s reply to an Indian mad at a tweet by (now Twitter-banned) Stefan Molyneux, and went on for days.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/pattern-recognition-is-another-name-for-racism-and-sexism/#comment-3505030 (#98)

    Probably my favorite tweet of that ongoing exchange:

    • Agree: techvet
  86. syonredux says:

    Remind me again, why do we want people like this in the West?

    “Everyone’s time comes…see Britain and Europe are slowly being subdued under your nose by a completely different culture…while you tweet about your golden era gone by….Good luck for what’s coming for you…”

  87. Jack D says:
    @Dieter Kief

    Very interesting. My grandfather operated just such a mill on the plains of the Western Ukraine. Its abandoned remnants still stand and I saw them a few years ago. Although this facility was not at all impressive by American standards even at the time it was built* it was probably (still) the closest thing to an industrial facility in town. It created “value added” in an economy where there was very little of that beyond agricultural production – a bunch of lumber is worth more than a log, a sack of flour is worth more than a sack of grain, etc. It was a source of endless power where the main source of power was (to some extent still is) horses. Had the war not come, I think it would have only been a matter of time before my grandfather acquired an electric generator to hook up to the thing and it would have become the source of electricity for the village. According to the local Ukrainians, the Soviets operated the mill into the 1970s.

    * Actually it was a little shocking to me because for my entire life I had (without ever seeing it), heard my mother talking about “the mill” and what was there (even discounting for its current state of ruin) was much more modest than what I had pictured in my mind’s eye. Galicia was a poor province and the system of finance was not well developed, so for my grandfather to have scraped up enough money to build even a modest building and fill it with imported machinery (it was a (small) steel roller mill powered by a water turbine, not the classic water wheel and stone mill) was a feat in itself, but you would not ooh and ahh at what resulted. But it literally towered above the rest of the even more humble village.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  88. Carol says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I’ve seen that claim in several books but can’t tell whether it’s some sort of political correctness.

    Also read that Arab merchants brought double entry accounting from India. But who cares who started it. Who developed and exploited it?

    It’s like the endless nonsense re the discovery of the New World. When Columbus discovered America, it stayed discovered!

    • Agree: Hibernian
    • Replies: @anon
  89. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    The hard science Nobels gave us the atomic bomb

    Not to mention sanitation and medical care and electricity and plumbing and all the stuff that has increased the average lifespan from around 35 years.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
  90. @NJ Transit Commuter

    “Perhaps the caste system prevented the development of practical applications of these amazing abstract thoughts? Would it have been considered beneath the dignity of a Brahmin to come up with actual uses for great theoretical developments?”

    That seems to be the preferred explanation for the same phenom all over: India, China, even Greece. The latter, for example, liked to make little toy machines and things for amusement, but would never consider anything as vulgar some kind of practical application for knowledge.

    Or at least that’s the story of the modern “Traditionalists” (Guenon, Evola, etc.) and TradCaths who have to sneer at and minimize the importance of things like printing and root canals and public hygiene, which were the products of “Judeo-Masonic Satanism” i.e. the Renaissance/Enlightenment.

    It’s interesting that Right Wing innerlekshuls like these insist that our ancestors were living in mud huts, and it was a good thing, while Woke innerlekshuls insist they wuz kangz. They need to compensate for present lack, while our side gets to larp like Marie Antoinette and her milk maids.

    Himmler and his Indiana Jones obsessions drove Hitler up the wall. Hitler wanted a modern, progressive Germany, and Himmler kept publicizing how Germanic tribes lived in caves, but with such wonderful symbols.

    • Replies: @gent
  91. Alden says:

    I didn’t know Fr Ricci went to India, but went directly to China. Didn’t a Frenchman named Pascal invent calculus 1600s?

    The entire black brown tan beige and ecru world has turned against us Whites. Time to fight back.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  92. The apologetics for the caste system are occasionally insightful. It is a kludge for overpopulation and the Dunbar number. You can only keep tabs on 150 people and if you can a priori treat everybody not in your caste as not-fully-human it makes getting around far closer to frictionless.

    It works and it isn’t going away. It would be analogous to standing fast against a tsunami wave.

  93. @Buzz Mohawk

    “Christianity’s emphasis on doing good works in this world as proof of your way into a heaven that comes later.”

    I’ll fix that for you:

    Christianity’s emphasis on doing good works in this world as proof of your way into a heaven, that comes later.

    Later, meaning, after the Renaissance. The Dark Ages and Catholic Middle Ages gave us, what, pretty illuminated manuscripts?

  94. Farenheit says:

    The unforgivable fact of 2020 is that white men have done most of the great things of the last 600 years

    600 years? Good sir you’re too modest. The Romans, Byzantines and the Greeks were well ahead of their peers as well.

    Let’s round it to 2500 years and call it a day.

    • Agree: 3g4me
  95. @Jack D

    But it literally towered above the rest of the even more humble village.

  96. Aardvark says:
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Now hold on before we get carried away…
    Did any check to see if L. Ron Hubbard had ever claimed that Xenu bought Calculus to earth and embedded in the psyche of Thetans or whatever they were called?
    Just trying to cover all the possible bases of claims of originality…

  97. anybody remember Godless Capitalist from 20 years ago, during the iSteve and GNXP days? man, that guy was angry. hated european men of course, for creating the great country that he voluntarily left India for. it’s almost like letting in millions of upper class Indian supremacists was a bad idea.

    speaking of calculus, Leibniz independently developed it around the same time as Newton, and Leibniz’s notation is the one we use today and that is taught in schools. not Newton’s version, which is more clunky and obtuse.

    if you did calculus in school, you copied what Leibniz was doing,

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @ATBOTL
    , @Peter Lund
  98. the subcontinent question is one steve should explore more.

    supposedly, according to the academy, the original indo-euopeans (aka aryans) were quite dark relative to today’s europeans…but everyone in europe was darker 6,000 years ago (also supposedly)…

    and why is it southern india is richer and has lower tfr than northern india?

  99. kihowi says:

    I see a lot of the usual excuse of “we could have done what you did but you enslaved us so we couldn’t”. My reply to that always is:

    So, why didn’t you come to Europe and enslave the Europeans?

    I don’t think I’ve ever gotten past that one with anybody. At that point the caliber of person I’m willing to have a discussion with understands that to go the other side of the world and enslave a subcontinent requires you to be superior in the first place.

    I imagine the more tenacious Indians in your tweets would say that they could have if they wanted to, but happened to be so morally enlightened that they chose not to. Personally, Indians are the people I feel the least kinship with. Asians, Slavs, Blacks, I “get” all of them, but Indians might as well be aliens.

  100. @syonredux

    Rishabh is right.

    The Europeans had vastly superior technology and organization when they colonized the world.

    We’re being subdued out of fear of being called a racist. Which people are more pathetic.

  101. @syonredux

    MLK got the Nobel for a peace movement.

    ?

  102. techvet says:

    Copying from a brilliant comment on another article on Indians, I would like to summarize this (not so bizarre anymore) phenomenon in these golden words

    The problem with the Indians isn’t a lack of intelligence per se (although that is indeed a pressing issue for some of the lower castes), but has to do with the average Indian’s intense inferiority complex coupled with an absolutely disproportional amount of pride/hubris compared to their actual achievements. This is a highly toxic combination.

    Do take a look. If steve’s lucky, he might be out in a day or two. Or otherwise, he’ll be in for a shitshow of his lifetime. Hindu nationalists on the “internets” make Poles and ukro fascists look like Norwegians in comparison

  103. J.Ross says:

    Asian conformity and tyranny make clear to the potential inventor the price of disruption. Henry Ford has been born a million times in Asia, and every time he looked around and kept his trap shut.

  104. J.Ross says:
    @syonredux

    Remember Jeb partying with the political narcos. Our idiot leaders imagine that they’ll “fit in.”

  105. Anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @candid_observer

    In some ways, the invention of geometry under the Greeks, culminating in the axiomatic method of Euclid, represents the unique, pivotal contributions of the West.

    Axiomatization is not really a practical method, but rather a form of presentation and publication, and a standard and theory about mathematics. Mathematicians don’t do math by sitting around staring at a set of axioms until their implications just start pouring out. They do math like people do any other activity: they make guesses (conjectures), do thought experiments, trial and error, etc. The final axiomatic presentation of math obscures the actual development and practice of math.

    Ultimately, the most important Greek development in math and science was the irrational or para-rational belief of the Pythagoreans that “all is number”. There is no rational basis for this belief. It is basically religious or superstitious. Yet it formed the basis of mathematical science. Whereas the more common sensical Aristotelianism was ultimately sterile and stagnant for science.

  106. @NJ Transit Commuter

    “The fact that Newton and Leibniz developed calculus independently and concurrently has always struck me as amazingly coincidental.”

    this is more common than you think. not just in engineering and medicine, but in mathematics. if you’re thinking it, probably some other smart guy somewhere is thinking about the same thing.

    that their notation was different probably shows that they did independently develop it around the same time. if you look at the history of new math, working out the rough edges of a new mathematical procedure often follows this pattern. regression, independently worked out by Legendre and Gauss, went thru the same thing. the Gauss version is the version we use today, and is more advanced and well developed.

    David Hilbert is the guy who, probably, solved the equation for general relativity, after Einstein struggled for several years to arrive at it. upon comparing notes, it’s thought that Einstein had part of it correct, but couldn’t get all the way there. note this isn’t the famous equation that everybody knows, but the equation they never show or put in books, because it’s actually hard, for the average person to understand anyway.

  107. @res

    That kind of thing seems to be more common than we would expect.

    Indeed, it happens all the time.

    Calculus – Newton & Leibniz
    Theory of Natural Selection – Darwin & Russell
    Discovery of iodine as new element – Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac & Humphry Davy (1813)
    Discovery of Determinants (1683) Leibniz & Takakazu Seki
    Bernoulli’s numbers – Jacob Bernoulli & Takakazu Seki (30 years earlier)
    Sunspots – Galileo & Christoph Scheiner
    Logarithms – Jost Burgi (1588) & John Napier (1614)
    Sine Law of Refraction – Harriot (1602), Snell (1621) & Descartes (1637)
    Law of Fall – Galileo (1604), Harriot (1606), & Beeckman (1619)
    Boyle’s Law – Boyle (1662) & Mariotte (1676)
    Telescope – Hans Lipperhay, Zacharias Janssen, & Jacob Metius (all in 1608)
    Correlation – Auguste Bravais (1844) & Galton/Pearson (1880s)
    Hubble’s Law – Georges Lemaître (1927) & Edwin Hubble (1929)

    There are many, many more.

    Great individual scientific accomplishment is probably far less important to scientific development than pop historians have traditionally given it credit. It’s much better to have a rigorous scientific culture with a lot of smart people working in it who are oriented toward discovery.

    • Thanks: John Achterhof, ic1000
  108. indocon says:

    Both AAs and subcontinentals share traits of extremely high self grandiosement and extremely low self awareness

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  109. Anonymous[296] • Disclaimer says:

    Isaac Newton never travelled out of England in his life.

  110. Anonymous[248] • Disclaimer says:
    @candid_observer

    Perhaps Ramanujan can stand as a proxy for the differences between Western mathematicians and those of India. He was, as a calculator, perhaps second to none in all of mathematics. But he was incapable of careful, abstract generalization and thought.

    Conversely you have great imaginative and abstract thinkers like Einstein who was a notoriously bad calculator.

    Speaking of Einstein here’s a great anecdote;

    “I knew a woman who, while Christmas caroling as a schoolchild, sang “Silent Night“ outside Einstein‘s house at 112 Mercer Street in Princeton. The professor appeared on the porch with his violin and, while not singing the words, played the music.”

    Our Peculiar Times by Fr. George Rutler (Manchester, NH: Sophia Institute Press, 2020), p.119.

  111. Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    It’s because they believe in gods with like a hundred arms. Plus they speak a foreign language.

    • LOL: Muggles
  112. Anonymous[166] • Disclaimer says:

    The answer, most surely, is that India has always been vastly overpopulated, even in medieval times when Europe as quite underpopulated, due to Malthusian limits being reached because of the favourable climate for agriculture and food raising.
    Hence, a super abundance of dirt poor (literally) labor rendered any impetus toward industrial machinery, or even horse or is transport for that matter, uneconomic. It is not too much of an exaggeration to say that India is still in these circumstances or at last was as recently as generation ago.
    The surplus value generated by the vast vast multitude of paupers *did*, however, fund the contemplations and scholarship of the Brahmins, and the luxury of the Muslim conquerors.

    Basically, it was Caplan/Economist-land come true. Wages reduced to lowest possible level to support life, with the surplus due to labor accruing to a small luxurious contemplative/thinking class who could devote all day thinking about such questions as immortality.

    • Agree: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
  113. @candid_observer

    Ramanujan was capable of incredibly creative, clever imaginary abstracting reasoning and generalization. He was not some sort of “Idiot Savant” lightning arithmetic man-child. Hardy recountEd how Ramanujan was routinely thrashed by Capt. Macmahon in sheer arithmetic calculation speed. Ramanujan’s derivations were probably overly concise and A bit thin but then again he was used to “proofs” from Carr’s Synopsis which feature extremely terse sketches of proof by necessity as they are meant to prepare the reader for the diabolically difficult Tripos exam.
    The big difference between Ramanujan and English mathematicians was his concept of proof and his lack of emphasis on proof. He also could do derivations of extremely difficult definite integrals, infinite summations, or continued fractions with no need to resort to Complex Variable theory a la Cauchy’s Residue theorem. The residue Theorem probably would be the least difficult route to evaluating stubborn sums and integrals for the modern mathematician.

    It wasn’t amazing that two mathematicians came up with calculus nearly at the same time. The ideas of both integral and differential calculus were heavily explored by Fermat, Descartes, Simpson, Bernoullis, bombelli, Torricelli, Roger Cotes even Archimedes. The BIG difference is that Newton and Leibniz realized that they were inverse processes that is finding the tangent to a curve is the reverse algorithm of finding the area under a curve. That is a Huge leap of imagination and intuition there.

  114. @Altai

    “looks interesting”

    I’m just happy that blacks are finally getting the attention they deserve.

  115. Bill P says:
    @Dieter Kief

    I’ve long thought it impressive that Germans were building geared sawmills so soon after they learned to read. When we needed expertise for our first colonies in Virginia we sent for Germans to build our lumber mills. The English at the time didn’t know how to do it. We had Germans make our guns, too, including the iconic Kentucky long rifle, the most uniquely American weapon of its era and a true work of art.

    From India, we got tea and opium, which is more than nothing I suppose.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Dieter Kief
  116. @Buzz Mohawk

    As Chesterton said: the buddha’s eyes are closed, while the Christian saint looks out at the world.

    But something you all seem to be missing is that Joseph T(homas probably, for the Apostle who brought Christ to India) Noony is from Kerala, and at least ancestrally a Christian. He writes: “Reason is precious, but culture even more still.” All but the most hard science obsessed (all too many here I know) cannot but applaud such a wise statement. And yet he is also interested in genetics and heredity, and is a fan of the Aryan myth. I am happy to welcome him as one of our own.

    We know who we are (i.e. how great we are; er, were), and should not begrudge him his pride in his own people.

    • Replies: @Anon
  117. HA says:
    @candid_observer

    “They lack the generality and abstraction captured in the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus”

    They also lack the Cartesian coordinate system — I would argue that that was the necessary precursor.

    Once a parabola or an ellipse is laid out on an f(x) vs. x coordinate graph, it’s only a matter of time before someone starts figuring out how to calculate the tangent or the rate of change at any point.

  118. I always thought white people did give credit to inventors of other races. Printing and gunpowder came from China, Algebra, and a lot of applied science from the Arabs and India, the Mayans had a calendar that was much more accurate than the one we use, American Indians bred the most important agricultural crop in the US, corn, etc..

    • Replies: @Muggles
  119. @Buzz Mohawk

    The structure of American Christian heaven resembles a corporation. I’ll take my chances with the Hindoos.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  120. Bill says:
    @res

    OTOH, the fact that ideas are “in the air” does sort of spoil the fun of all the Great Genius jock-sniffers.

  121. Bill says:
    @syonredux

    Toni Morrison got the Nobel for beautiful literature.

  122. HA says:
    @syonredux

    “Maybe Kanye and Dave Chappelle aren’t the same kind of genius as a Fermi or Feynman, but they’re geniuses.”

    This is all because that racist piece-of-trash Alfred Nobel never got around to endowing a Nobel prize in funk. Why is that? Anyone? Did his wife maybe cheat on him with a rapper?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  123. Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    Throughout history, knowledge was accumulated and then lost, and then accumulated again, rinse and repeat. So went India, China, and the Greco-Roman world.

    But something happened circa 1500 in the West that turned that process into a one-way ratchet: Henceforth, new and useful discoveries were preserved and disseminated, and then used as the foundation for yet more discoveries, creating a virtuous cycle of continuous compound growth in knowledge. This is illustrated by Newton’s dictum that his discoveries were made “on the shoulders of giants.”

    It’s hard to say exactly why this happened in the West when it did. But I’d venture that it was mainly a combination of: (a) the printing press and widespread literacy (due largely to the Reformation’s emphasis on reading scripture); and (b) the existence of an interconnected network of many political and commercial entities which were independently competing with one another.

    If India or China had had a network of smart people competing with one another to claim the glory of publishing scientific papers, combined with a network of capitalists eager to put new concepts to work making money, they might have produced their own scientific and industrial revolutions.

    But without those factors, discoveries were “siloed,” either with families who kept them hidden as trade secrets, or with court intellectuals who considered them merely philosophical curiosities. Once these people died from the latest barbarian invasion or plague, or whatever, their knowledge died with them.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @G. Poulin
  124. V. Hickel says:
    @syonredux

    They have to go back. All of them. h/t to Vox D.

  125. res says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Thanks. Perhaps a way to think about it is to consider discovery/invention as a Poisson distribution where individual ability (as dictated by group average and SD) determines lambda? Wiki and visualizer might help here.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution
    https://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~mbognar/applets/pois.html

    As ability (lambda) increases we see that the likelihood of discovery and the probability that a discovery has multiple inventors both increase (which seems like a fair representation of the historical trend for discoveries).

    I wonder if it is possible to make meaningful quantitative inferences with this idea using group IQ mean and SDs along with the absolute number of people in each group? How well would something like that would map to Murray’s Human Accomplishment data?

    I’m not sure whether the more important point is the one you make or the point that given a consistent (through time) normal distribution of ability the more people we have to draw from the more likely it is we will get far right tail individuals.

    Consider a population of 44 people with on average 1 +2 SD person. If you multiply that population by 17 you then have average 17 +2 SD people along with a +3 SD person. What do you think the relative contributions to discovery and invention would be for the following effects?

    – 17x the individual contributions from +2 SD individuals.
    – Synergy caused by now having 17 people like that who can interact.
    – The +3 SD individual.

    Note that the population has to increase another 42x for an average of one +4 SD individual to appear. And over another 100x (giving a total of 17 * 42 * 100 multiplying the original 44) for an average of one +5 SD individual to appear. Worth remembering that at these levels the IQ/ability distribution might have fatter tails than a Gaussian though.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  126. Jack D says:
    @Bill P

    From India, we got tea

    Tea comes from China. No tea was grown in India until the British smuggled out some cuttings and figured out how to grow and process the stuff. This did not happen until the 1850s.

    The story of how this happened is fascinating:

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea-heist-9866709/

    Up until Fortune’s mission, it was believed in the West that green tea and black tea were the product of two different plants (in fact they are the same plant, just processed differently), such was the level of ignorance regarding tea cultivation in the West. The Chinese preferred to keep their Western customers in the dark, including regarding their little trick of adding a mixture of (blue ferro-) cyanide and yellow gypsum to the tea to give it a brilliant green color. Fortunately for the British, in ferrocyanide (aka “Prussian blue”) the cyanide is tightly bound to the iron so it passes thru your body without being absorbed, not that the Chinese would have cared whether or not it was toxic (so long as it brought the best price). Some things never change.

    The British moved tea production to India not only because it was cheaper (the main reason) but also so they could exert control over the process in order to avoid such adulteration.

    • Replies: @Bill P
  127. jb says:
    @res

    There is a chapter in Empires of the Word that talks about ancient Indian grammarians and their astonishingly sophisticated analysis of Sanskrit grammar, dating back to before the 5th century BC. From the book (p. 181):

    Furthermore, the grammar that the tradition had defined was a vast system of abstract rules, made up of a set of pithy maxims (called sutras, literally ‘threads’) written in an artificial jargon. The sutras are like nothing so much as the rules in a computational grammar of a modern language, such as might be used in a machine translation system: without any mystical or ritual element, they apply according to abstract format principles.

    And yet it was always self-absorbed analysis for the sake of analysis. The focus was always on the perfection of Sanskrit; there was never the slightest interest in understanding the grammars of other languages. From the book again (p. 216):

    As in linguistics, so in the gamut of Indian sciences. In its continual appeal to abstract principle, rather than its own specific cultural tradition, Sanskrit-based civilization is different from those of Greece and Rome to its west. Indian culture does not revolve around its epics and its literary classics, treasured though these are. Nor does its philosophy emphasize socially useful theories, such as politics, ethics or the art of persuasion. Rather it theorizes about states of being and modes of perception.

    • Replies: @jb
  128. syonredux says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Yeah, independent invention/discovery is very common. Three more examples off the top of my head:

    Telegraph: Wheatstone (England) Morse and Vail (USA)

    Steamboat :John Fitch (USA), Claude-François-Dorothée (France), William Symington (Scotland)

    Mutual inductance: Faraday (England), Joseph Henry (USA).

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  129. @syonredux

    Obama won his Nobel for the scandal free terms he would have and not for being the war monger.

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
  130. Anonymous[390] • Disclaimer says:

    I’d like to know how Hindutva-ji got the notion that either Matteo Ricci or Christopher Clavius was ever in India. I can’t find any information that either was ever there.
    I’m not familiar with Clavius except as a reformer of the Gregorian calendar, but any claim that the Indians had been working on amending the Western calendar, only to have someone steal this “knowledge” away to where it could do the most good, is a tale told by an idiot.
    I am more familiar with the other alleged thief. Matteo Ricci was in Asia alright, but in China, where he solidly impressed the Chinese at the highest levels, and is still the object of esteem there, as “利瑪竇 .” Being a Jesuit priest and thus constrained morally, he was careful not to steal any knowledge from the Chinese. However, he vastly increased Western knowledge about China, and may be credited as the West’s first Sinologist.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  131. Yawrate says:
    @Dieter Kief

    Yes, the harder life in the north makes people more industrious and favors the intelligent.

    Notice how this happened after the Muslim slavers drove everyone away from the Mediterranean and finished off Roman civilization.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
  132. G. Poulin says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    That’s a good point. Maybe it was the willingness to disseminate knowledge that made the difference. I’ll bet that the first 100 guys who discovered how to make fire were stoned to death as warlocks, until some enterprising chieftain (or his wife) said “Hey, this might be a good way to have hot food every night!”

  133. Anon[323] • Disclaimer says:

    “The unforgivable fact of 2020 is that white men have done most of the great things of the last 600 years.”

    Try the last 6000. The only two ethnic groups on the planet capable of cultivating and sustaining modern civilization are Caucasians and NE Asians, with the latter having required handholding from the prior. There is direct genetic evidence (and supporting circumstantial evidence) that Caucasians were a large part of the aristocratic overclass throughout the ancient world.

    Ramses III, of Sea Peoples fame, was mostly caucasian, along with a disproportionate number of Egyptian mummies. (Notice how the genetic testing of mummies came to a screeching halt after the initial results came back). Sumerian nobility tended to have blue eyes, and they thought blue eyes and fair skin were a sign from the gods.

    It is difficult to find a single advanced civilization that does not have these tell-tale signs. Predictably, archeologists are not exactly falling over themselves to do DNA testing on ancient aristocratic remains.

    • Replies: @Preposterous!
  134. @Bill P

    I

    My great grandparents from Sudetia in Tschechia were German settlers there. They did cultivate quite potential sleeping poppies, which grew as tall as us toddlers in their garden. When we were weary and excited, they’d give us a poppy ball to chew on – poppy seeds in a handkerchief, knotted to a small ball, which send us to sleep. They also made a cake, which gave you the feeling of an unknown mild high, like a summer breeze. Do I have to say that they were – almost saintlike catholic people, living in perfect harmony in one room for decades in Germany after they had been chased away from their village in the Sudeten mountains, called Tschenkowice, and never complaining their fate,  but being grateful for being alive and well?

    II

    My wife and I met a Swiss couple last year who keep a water-driven sawmill alive near Neukirch (=Newchurch) in the Canton Thurgau. A mill existed at Neukirch at least since 1416 and was in use until 1916. New in the case of Neukirch meaning – the church is this year exactly five hundred years old. I met the couple at the Kreuz in Neukirch, a typical Swiss restaurant – which does not look much different than it did three hundred years ago (it is that old). Once every month, the two open their sawmill on Sunday mornings and – operate it. I’m oftentimes in gorges because I love the plants and the light there for being so photogenic. And thus I regularly do run into lots of remnants of mills, stone mills, sawmills…When it comes to beauty and optical riches, there is hardly another place, that would beat Neukirch and its surrounding area – a mild plain above the Thur valley. Steve Sailer’s idea that rich regions are the most beautiful is proven perfectly proven wrong here – as in so many other places and villages in Switzerland. – For the photographer I am, this is one of the most attractive spots on earth. But pssst – no need to spread the word. 

    One of the best German prose writers, Wilhelm Raabe, did one of his best pieces about a mill (Die Innerste). and the best German romantic novel – From the Life of a Bum by Joseph von Eichendorf starts off with a miller’s son, leaving the mill in the springtime because the world outside is all of a sudden so overwhelmingly appealing to him – he is overcome by wa(o)nderlust.

    The intellectually most interesting German poet and essayist (by far) Hans Magnus Enzensberger (born 1929, still going strong) did write a truly great poem about mills and progress in his collection of poems called Mausoleum (it begins with a perfectly beautiful and laconic piece about the renaissance watchmaker Giovanni de Dondi in Padua – . – In his mill-poem, Enzensberger focuses on the American inventor and mill technician Oliver Evans. I’ve recommended Mausoleum here more than once, but nevertheless – it is a gem, if only for the happy few – and it is translated into English, but not perfectly well, unfortunately, I have to say.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Evans

    • Thanks: JMcG, Dan Hayes
  135. @Gianni in Guernsey

    If memory serves … Didn’t Obama win his Nobel For that spike in Colonel Q’daff’hi’s rectum?

  136. Anonymous[469] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Consider the situation of post-Roman northern Europe. They had been members of the Roman empire for centuries before it collapsed and were thoroughly Romanicised. Despite that, when the empire withdrew, the whole technological edifice collapsed and didn’t reach the same level for nearly 1000 years.

    Except that didn’t happen. Some technologies (like the formula for concrete) did vanish, but others–like mills and water-clocks, not only remained but got more advanced during the so-called “Dark Ages”. Some things the Romans never really got around to, the early medievals did–crop-rotation, mouldboard plows, stirrups. The average European peasant of AD 1000 was healthier and taller than his ancestor of AD 400.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  137. @techvet

    I said in a comment on that thread that if India cares about its international image, it should create a firewall to stop it’s citizens (and I mainly mean the Hindu fanatics) from embarrassing themselves and dragging down the already poor reputation of India.

  138. @James O'Meara

    Agree.

    It is the Christianity since the Renaissance or the Reformation that interestingly correlates with all of the progress that modern, European Man — and thus the world — has made.

    Now, correlation does not mean causation. Perhaps that change and the progress we all enjoy were the results of different things… (This is not a suggestion, but only an admission of truth within an argument.)

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  139. @Intelligent Dasein

    You mean, they did dicover the zero, and did propel mathematical progress by inventing it, but the very reason that this prime symbol of their culture appealed to them made their discovery useless for them – much more so than for the others. – Fate can be ironic. And Nietzsche, who discovered that, did dwell on Arthur Schopenhauer, who had studied Indian thought, religion and wisdom…full circle…

  140. Anonymous[426] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dash

    It’s similar to the old distinction between doctors and surgeons/pharmacists. Traditionally doctors were educated men who would diagnose illnesses and prescribe medicines, but they would never dirty their hands cutting up bodies and grinding herbs. That was beneath their status.

  141. Neoconned says:

    Steve: have you seem Tenet yet? Got a review?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  142. AndrewR says:
    @Altai

    Taking old comedy sitcoms and remaking them as dramas is an interesting concept. You could also do the opposite. Imagine The Wire or The Sopranos as sitcoms.

  143. Altai says:
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    In fairness, black popular culture, like popular culture as a whole is made by the same sorts of people copying each other. It gives the illusion of a ‘black voice’ when infact it’s just a black version of the same voice, all the artists siring each other.

    They learn what they’re supposed to make in film school or through copying the output from the other film school grads. They learn how they’re supposed to frame things and what issues to discuss and how.

    It’s like in sci-fi where everyone copied that one Philip K Dick story and have machines that all just want to be human and have emotions (Despite a desire to have emotions itself being an emotion) etc. 2001 was an outlier in actually depicting the interesting nature of a machine being an antagonist. They’re all actually the same story from the same idiosyncratic source that isn’t an obvious extrapolation of the reality of such technology, they just like Blade Runner and keep wanting to make their own version.

  144. We wuz inventors and shit (Indian accent)

  145. Mr. Blank says:

    Serious question: Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    That is an excellent question. You could ask similar questions about China, which apparently has an impressive history of inventing cool stuff and then never really capitalizing on it.

    I’ve often wondered about where in the history of human thought we developed the crucial conceptual insight that allowed people to start generalizing, making it possible to build and capitalize on previous discoveries in a consistent fashion. For thousands of years everything seemed to develop piecemeal. Then at some point around the Renaissance it’s like people in Europe suddenly “got it.”

    How did that happen? Why then, and not before? Why there, and not somewhere else? What piece of equipment do we have in our mental and conceptual toolbox that ancient Chinese or Hindu scholars did not? And when did it show up?

    Can it be traced to Aristotle? Avicenna? Or was it something that developed over a long period?

    I have no idea, personally (I went to public school in Alabama…), but I bet some of Steve’s readers have some fascinating thoughts.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  146. @Buzz Mohawk

    (This is not a suggestion, but only an admission of truth within an argument.)

    If you don’t mind – your caveat would only be – functional (useful…), if the question you discuss here were a formal one by its very nature. But this it clearly is not – it’s a practical question and thus can be answered right away in the way you did.

    (I think, that what you talk about has an implication, which is very valuable, but on a neighboring (=not exactly the same) level. Reformulated to fit into my hypothesis, it could then read like this: Could it be, that what you were talking about is something, that has – in the process of radical secularisation – been underestimated, while really being one of the root causes for Western progress. – To turn this screw a bit more I mention Douglas Murray’s “The Strange Death of Europe”. Murray says the European death is a bit like someone who kills himself because he is so exhausted. Murray – interestingly enough – does not talk much about this main – enigma – in his book. Maybe because he thinks that when making it explicit, it might lose some of its power. And that X at the heart of the matter (I’m still inside Murray’s head, I guess) would be that secularisation comes at a spiritual cost, which might be higher than usually assumed. It might – in the long run – be just not that easy to keep modern societies alive ‘n’ kickin’ without – – – a metaphsyicality**** which is taken very good care of – – – collectively – and individually.

    **** right now I think, that this neologism could be a useful expression – if not, please forget about it

    • Thanks: Buzz Mohawk
  147. anon[242] • Disclaimer says:
    @Flemur

    That settles it, I’m moving to Indiana!

    Yeah, Hoosier Daddy!

  148. @a guy named me too

    I am of British descent –do I get angry and jealous when I read the Roman and Greek stoics, and claim they ‘stole’ that knowledge from a highland druid priest?

    Why not? The best-in my opinion- stoic philosopher was Epictetus. Epictetus. See, this is actually Picts, therefore ancient Scots.

    There you are.

  149. Have not read through the comments yet, but remember America stole the part of Mexico with the good roads and bridges. The Jesuits, well are the Jesuits. Responsible for educating thousands of Indians who would never have learned to read and write, let alone master calc.

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
  150. @SunBakedSuburb

    The structure of American Christian heaven resembles a corporation.

    This is especially true of the Mormon conception of Heaven. The Mormans I knew worked very hard and were trustworthy because they wanted to get into the highest level of corporate Heaven they could.

    BTW, the resemblance you see of Christian Heaven and corporate structure is not evidence at all of anything. Your implicit conclusion reminds me of a girlfriend who said to me, “Everything men do is in the image of their penises.” Yes, she really said that, because she was an early graduate of feminist philosophy and everything we lament now here. (That didn’t prevent her from willingly being penetrated and enjoying old fashioned fucking though…) She didn’t have a technical education and thus didn’t understand that the things she was then talking about, airplanes, rockets and such, are shaped like penises for the same reason that penises are: That is the simple shape necessary for the least resistance to forward motion. She really did not understand this. She honestly thought Americans designed and built their airplanes and rockets, and many other things, to look like penises just because they lived in a patriarchy!

    In the same vein, the structure of Christian Heaven that you see resembles a corporation because corporations are structured the way they are because that is the best way to structure organizations of people.

    Get it?

  151. Anonymous[426] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mitchell Porter

    OK, that sounds like what is happening in China with regard to traditional medicine. Practitioners are quietly adding modern drugs (especially antibiotics) to their cures without informing their patients. Eventually the two systems will merge without the average Chinese person ever realizing that anything has changed.

    • Replies: @res
  152. Anonymous[287] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Except that didn’t happen. Some technologies (like the formula for concrete) did vanish, but others–like mills and water-clocks, not only remained but got more advanced during the so-called “Dark Ages”.

    The post-Romano Britons were living in huts in Wales while the Anglo-Saxons were living in huts in the ruins of large Roman buildings, so yeah… There was a complete economic dislocation and subsequent reduction in living standards for all concerned.
    The fact that a few technical artefacts remained doesn’t hide the general decay.

  153. @Kent Nationalist

    Maybe we could do without metaphysics as a topic in and of itself, but as long as there are sentient beings that represent reality with abstract ideals (time, mathematics, language, identity, etc.), metaphysics will exist whether they talk about it or not 🙂

  154. @theMann

    theMann, the Cathedrals are really some of the greatest works of art and architecture in the world. While alien theorist try to explain Machu Pichu and Stonehenge to involvement by extraterrestial beings, the builders of the Cathedrals and their plans are in archives.

  155. gent says:
    @James O'Meara

    Interestingly, Devi parts with the other traditionalists on this, as does Coomaraswamy. Unlike Guenon and Evola who can only see technology as something entirely separate from man, she states that it is a skill like any other, one that is praiseworthy when used properly and for good reason. However, like the others, she would rank it as of contingent worth on its own, without an aim.

  156. anon[242] • Disclaimer says:
    @Carol

    Also read that Arab merchants brought double entry accounting from India.

    A counting of things dates back to Egypt and Babylon as well as India.

    Double entry was invented by Venetian Luca Pacioli.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_accounting

  157. Anonymous[287] • Disclaimer says:
    @prime noticer

    speaking of calculus, Leibniz independently developed it around the same time as Newton, and Leibniz’s notation is the one we use today and that is taught in schools. not Newton’s version, which is more clunky and obtuse.

    Nah, Newton’s dot notation is more elegant when manipulating differential equations, but Leibniz’s dx/dy notation is clearer when setting the problem up in the first place (or learning the concepts at first).

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @res
  158. ATBOTL says:
    @prime noticer

    Yes, Godless Capitalist was a POS. He infested the Sam Francis Online forum. That would have been around 2001. Apropos of nothing, he would brag about knowing some kind of math that is no big deal for a white man to have studied, as if anyone cared. He had a massive hatred for white people, despite his entire enormous ego being based on having been taught white knowledge by white men.

  159. the fires that now make my neighborhood look like the final scene of Black Hole are mostly peaceful.

  160. Bill P says:
    @Jack D

    Interesting. I assumed the Indians had begun cultivating tea long before the 19th century. That’s quite a story.

    I prefer Chinese wulong tea myself, but I drink black tea here in the states because the Chinese stuff you get over here is overpriced garbage compared to what you can find in Chinese tea markets. The green tea here is particularly lousy, and I’m not motivated enough to drive up to Vancouver to find something acceptable.

  161. @EliteCommInc.

    In his defense, many very bright people have debatable interpretations of Eliot’s work. I’d say he’s at least in the ballpark alluding to the horror of living with an unspeakable historical truth.

  162. @James O'Meara

    The late Middle Ages had tons of inventions, far more than the era of Pax Romana. Or all of the Roman Empire – concrete aside.

  163. @clyde

    I do business with a lot of Indians (hazard of my trade, unfortunately) and I’ll never forget the first email request I received with that particular verbiage. I still laugh heartily whenever I see it. Thank you.

  164. J.Ross says:
    @theMann

    First one is iffy (they definitely had the technology and used it at a commercial scale in other ways), second is golden and happens to also be Richard Pipes’ major critique of Russia. It probably also explains a lot of backwardness in the Spanish-speaking world, where the government and/or the local gang just takes what they want. The best thing for society is private profit. Without a payoff which I can expect to keep, why the hell should anybody do anything? Third one is largely true but notice there were periods of peace and long-term planning projects.

  165. NOTA says:
    @Thatgirl

    Maybe, but in college I dated a chemistry grad student who was seriously into astrology. I never did figure out how she got those beliefs to coexist….

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  166. J.Ross says:
    @HA

    Neither of them are geniuses in “funk.” Non-controversial geniuses in funk would be Bootsy and Bohannon, who, largely between their innovations, created a new musical genre. Notice also they they actually played instruments.

  167. Cido says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Correlation – Auguste Bravais (1844) & Galton/Pearson (1880s)

    Wow! It got so long for correlation be developed !

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  168. @res

    A worthwhile exercise to help visualize it mathematically, but I’m more curious about the qualitative degree of science necessary to get the enterprise going in the first place.

    China before 1000 had no proper science as we would understand it today, but it did have a great deal of creative technological inventiveness and intellectual discovery done in an ad hoc fashion. After 1000, there was less for some reason.

    Why were all this creative technological advances not turned into something like Western science? And, second, why did even this creativity start to falter after 1000? Why were the Chinese unable to sustain it? I don’t think your exercise helps us out much in answering those questions.

    One could make similar observations about the transition between the Hellenistic world and the Roman empire. Were the Greeks really that much smarter than the Romans?

    • Replies: @res
  169. @Yawrate

    It’s not necessarily just the harder life of the far North that makes some ethnic groups more intelligent. I think it’s more like a combination of predictable seasons, a certain level of population density, and settled farming. Otherwise we’d expect Highland Scots and Norwegian Laplanders to be more intelligent than Bavarians.

  170. @syonredux

    List of Multiple Independent Discoveries at Wikipedia

    Some on this list are strained, but there were a few good ones I’d never heard of before.

    Jet stream was detected in the 1920s by Japanese meteorologist Wasaburo Oishi, whose work largely went unnoticed outside Japan because he published his findings in Esperanto.[63][64]

    A theory of protein denaturation is widely attributed to Alfred Mirsky and Linus Pauling, who published their paper in 1936,[72] though it had been independently discovered in 1931 by Hsien Wu,[73] whom some now recognize as the originator of the theory.[74]

  171. Anon[205] • Disclaimer says:
    @Old Palo Altan

    “.. should not begrudge him his pride in his own people.”

    Bravo. A man’s loves (for homeland, God, family and truth) are incentives for the constructive use of his faculties. Let Indians and Americans both build a better homeland.

    • Agree: Old Palo Altan
  172. @NOTA

    I think yours is a common experience. I too dated girls in college who were quite smart, majoring in challenging subjects, while they taught me how to read tarot cards and astrological charts. Neither they nor I took any of those things seriously; we just entertained the possibility.

    It was like driving a car down a road: You don’t stop steering just because you are enjoying a song on the radio. They are two different things. Your girlfriend had no conflict at all between her chemistry studies and her astrology bullshit.

    And I can still read tarot cards and astrological charts, thanks to those girls who taught me how…

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  173. Hibernian says:
    @Anonymous

    Newton developed it semi-intuitively; Leibnitz put it on a firm logical foundation. This is what I was taught at St. Ambrose College (now University), Davenport IA, in the Spring of 1972.

  174. Hibernian says:
    @Alden

    Pascal was more involved with probability, which provided a foundation for statistics.

  175. BenKenobi says:
    @peterike

    I’ve said it before but it bears repeating:

    Even in uber-lefty Vancouver all my Good White liberal friends will lower their voice, look side-to-side and day “I f*cking hate brown people.”

    • Thanks: Pheasant
    • Replies: @Anon
  176. @Hannah Katz

    The whole “zero” thing is interesting and weird.

    — Every language has some word for “nothing”.

    — Every culture that does math, understands zero as a possible quantitative result. I.e. “you take away my last one i’ve got, then i have nothing.”

    — All cultures with written languages has some written word for “nothing”.

    — Many ancient languages used decimal system for expressing numbers. (Ex. in Latin digits up to nine, then then, then ten and one, ten and two …, then something for twenty, twenty and one … … some new name for hundred, a thousand.)

    And most interestingly …

    — The major civilized cultures–the West, the Chinese, Persians, etc.–were using some sort of counting board or abacus–all based on place-value–with the ability to indicate a zero value in any position long before the Hindus developed their zero

    So the problem was not the idea “zero”. Nor was it even place value–as serious calculation took place using it. Rather it was simply taking the decimal place-value representation–and in the case of say Latin that was also coded in the linguistic expression–and just using it as the written expression of a number. Which would have the open up easy written calculations.

    The Romans could have done this very easily–as they had an alphabet.
    Ex. — U (nulla), I, D, T, Q, V, E, S, O, N (Maybe you want ‘N’ or some other character for zero–lots of possibilities.)

    But instead they were translating back from their place-value counting boards to their clunky number system. This a people who developed the arch, built aqueducts and sewers and empire spanning roads (and raised armies and collected taxes across their vast empire) left monumental architecture unrivaled in the rest off the world. A bunch of it still standing today!

    Seems like a weird … miss. But then we see these “misses” in history. Like the Chinese wedded to their elaborate development of primitive pictographic writing, when they encountered people with alphabets around them.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Kratoklastes
  177. Hibernian says:
    @James O'Meara

    The Dark Ages and Catholic Middle Ages gave us, what, pretty illuminated manuscripts?

    From an O’ Meara, no less. The monks kept the Scriptures alive, there was some scientific progress, what came later depended on what came before, some people found those manuscripts inspiring, yadda, yadda.

    • Replies: @Cido
  178. Anonymous[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Just look at what happened to Baghdad after a single genocidal Mongol conquest- from being the intellectual capital of the world to a crap backwater.

    The Mongols weren’t Muslims were they?

    • Replies: @Muggles
  179. Anonymous[426] • Disclaimer says:

    Iranian nationalists have similar grievances against the Greeks, specifically Alexander, who they allege not only wrecked and looted their homeland, but also made off with their intellectual heritage and passed it off as their own.

  180. @RichardTaylor

    You are proof of why Unz is right about white nationalism being bankrupt. So it was Nordics who taught Indians everything until they gave them their daughters.

    Next you’ll claim Mediterraneans were all blue eyed blonds when they built Acropolis but then they mixed with darkies so they’re kinda brown and dumb now… oh wait, someone else beat you to it.

    And castes have worked remarkably well in a land with no major natural barriers. India is the most segregated country in the world. You just can’t see it because they all look brown to you.

    • Replies: @Libre
  181. Anonymous[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Black-hole creator

    PS Indians did not “invent zero”. That is another wild idea that is widely being used a propaganda tool. Greeks used zeroes in their math and astronomy, and who knows before and after them.

    Exactly, the claim is ludicrous. Any intelligent group would have understood the difference between food or no food, sticks vs no sticks, woman there or no woman there, specific threat in that direction, no threat in that direction.

  182. Clyde says:
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    It’s like an encyclopedia of everything that makes black people so stultifyingly tedious and uninteresting.
    They live in an emotional cartoon. Nancy and Sluggo have more sophisticated inner lives.

    Nancy and Sluggo was the crudest, most low tech cartoon. One step above stick figures.

  183. res says:
    @Pincher Martin

    A worthwhile exercise to help visualize it mathematically, but I’m more curious about the qualitative degree of science necessary to get the enterprise going in the first place.

    Understandable. The topic of my comment seems well enough understood. It is just that being able to make it quantitative would open up some good opportunities for analysis. Also, I think better understanding the relative importance of the three factors I mentioned for increasing population would be helpful for improving innovation in the present.

    China before 1000 had no proper science as we would understand it today, but it did have a great deal of creative technological inventiveness and intellectual discovery done in an ad hoc fashion. After 1000, there was less for some reason.

    Why were all this creative technological advances not turned into something like Western science? And, second, why did even this creativity start to falter after 1000? Why were the Chinese unable to sustain it? I don’t think your exercise helps us out much in answering those questions.

    I’m not familiar enough with Chinese history to make a good guess. My initial thought was turning inwards as shown by stopping the treasure fleets, but that was centuries later.
    https://www.thoughtco.com/why-did-the-treasure-fleet-stop-195223

    Perhaps it had to do with the rulers deciding innovation threatened the status quo and thus their society (I vaguely recall reading something like that)? Anyone know enough about Chinese history to offer a good reason?

    One could make similar observations about the transition between the Hellenistic world and the Roman empire. Were the Greeks really that much smarter than the Romans?

    I thought the simple narrative about the Greeks being more about philosophy and theory and the Romans more about engineering and military/political power was enough to explain that?

  184. 3g4me says:
    @Colin Wright

    @2 Colin Wright: Not bad, but as usual you refuse to trace things back to their roots. From whence does culture come? Indians’ essential alien thoughts and morals and behavior are the result of different genetics going back thousands of years. No citizenship papers change this. No magic dirt alters their character. Their children may wear jeans and speak English (sorta), but they are the product of their parents’ and grandparents’ and great-grandparents’ genetic inheritance . In short, multiculturalism is unnatural, and DNA MATTERS.

  185. TamJam says:

    Fatal combination of friendly tropical weather and caste system. Without severe winter, natural selection did not get a chance to weed out that subset of abstract thinkers, who are terrible with real stuff. They would not have survived harsher climate. Secondarily, because of caste system, thinkers (Brahmins) and the doers (Vaishya, Kshatriya, Shudra) were genetically segregated. So finding individuals who are genetically endowed to be good at both thinking and doing are rare. And because of caste based specialization, Brahmins don’t get any practice either, so nurture does not get much of a shot to improve very limited natural talent. All of this resulted in Hindu abstract thinking to distance from practical outbound applications into a theoretical reality of logical and symbolic irrelevance.

  186. JimB says:

    Why does India have an impressive history of abstraction (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it) but a weak one of application?

    Only Indians in the top caste have had the leisure time and the intelligence for abstraction. Unfortunately, the Brahmans detest physical labor, which is a sign of low birth in India, explaining why high caste Indian graduate students prefer theoretical over experimental disciplines. However, physical labor is also necessary for advancing applied science, which is why experimental physicists can often be found working in machine shops at 2am.

  187. Anonymous[271] • Disclaimer says:

    ‘Stolen’

    Even if true, knowledge is meant to move around and be used.

    Still, maybe Indians had curry kerala than calculus.

    Touchiness on these matters is especially rife among those with a measure of superiority complex. Indonesians on average probably don’t care about Western dominance. In contrast, the Hindus do have a long illustrious civilization and history, and Brahminic thought revolves around the notion of Wise Hindus Know Best, not just about the world but the cosmos since the beginning to the end of time. To them, Westerners are upstarts who were cavemen when India has high civilization. So, the West is merely materialist and lacks the requisite wisdom that imbues a true civilization. It’s like the disdain of a long declined aristocracy towards the fast-rising bourgeoisie that, however more successful, is only about money than meaning. (But then, Hindus sure love their Rolls Royce and gold.)

    By the way, if the West is in the business of stealing Hindu genius, how about India take back all those super-genius Hindus now working in the West? I mean we wouldn’t want the stupid materialist greedy West to benefit from all such wisdom and genius of the exceptional Hindus.

  188. HA says:
    @Anonymous

    “Northern Europe managed to fight off the Arabs and Turks, but they were significantly advantaged by the cold Winters. “

    And by Poles, and Austrians, and Serbs, and Russians and Hungarians and the others who were stuck with the dirty job of defending the rest of Europe against the Ottomans/Saracens/Tatars. Curiously, the Northern and Western Europeans tend to forget about them when coming up with silly Max-Weber theories about why the Northern areas of Europe tend to be so much more industrious than the South. I get the gist of those theories, but I suspect the North would be less industrious too, if those regions had to deal with as many Ottomans and Tatars in the same way (i.e. not just colluding with them against the Austrians and Poles).

    It’s the flipside of Moynihan’s nearness to Canada observation. The more interaction (i.e. bloodshed) that a European culture has had with the Islamic world, and the more centuries it dwelt under its shadow, the less productive it is today.

    It wasn’t always like that. Before Islam, and well into its early years — i.e., before it entrenched and ossified itself into the minds of its peoples — cultures tended to be more developed the closer they were situated to MENA regions.

    Thanks, Mohammed!

    • Agree: Lot, YetAnotherAnon, AP
  189. @Dieter Kief

    Civilization is built by the cooperation of people of different skills and levels of intelligence working together. The right amount of chiefs and indians is more important than average iq, as long as the chiefs are intelligent, the indians aren’t too low, and both groups are on the same page and prosper.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  190. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    Ricci was in Goa before he was in China. Goa was a Portuguese colony in part of India.

  191. Jack D says:
    @AnotherDad

    Romans used their numerals only to note final results. Computation was done by abacus.

    By the time that the Chinese encountered alphabets they had been using their system of writing for thousands of years and they were not about to change. The Vietnamese did it but only because literacy was not widespread to begin with.

  192. @Anonymous

    Good analysis.

    When the labor market is tight, people innovate to get stuff done. When there’s an oversupply of labor, you just hire more subsistence laborers.

    Europe didn’t really begin to progress under after the Black Death had killed off a significant fraction of the population (30-60%). After that, you had the Renaissance and a long period of extreme innovativeness. I would assume it’s because the shortage of workers prompted businessmen to utilize their ingenuity to solve problems.

    The surplus value generated by the vast vast multitude of paupers *did*, however, fund the contemplations and scholarship of the Brahmins, and the luxury of the Muslim conquerors.

    Basically, it was Caplan/Economist-land come true. Wages reduced to lowest possible level to support life, with the surplus due to labor accruing to a small luxurious contemplative/thinking class who could devote all day thinking about such questions as immortality.

    Sounds plausible.

    Also, when there’s a surplus of labor, the upper classes develop a contempt towards working with their hands, which would put them on par with the poorly paid and wretched masses. Their bias is towards working with their mind. Abstract thinking.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  193. @res

    I thought the simple narrative about the Greeks being more about philosophy and theory and the Romans more about engineering and military/political power was enough to explain that?

    Greeks were highly militaristic (Alexander & a whole bunch of others depicted in Plutarchus). Just, Greeks – with some exceptions – had a fetish of killing each other as much as possible, so eventually organized & centralized Roman force subdued them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  194. @indocon

    Blacks are more entertaining though. So when they rap about their grandiosity, it’s fun to watch.

    Whereas the Subcon argumentativeness of your tribe sort of just grates on people.

  195. @anonymous

    Isn’t it more the anger/resentment/annoyance that India, with a vast written history and culture dating back to way before Christ, should have been overtaken and smitten by a bunch of barbarians with no history? After all, when the Vedas were composed, the British Isles were not long out of the Stone Age and writing was unknown.

    You’d think after all the Muslim invasions they’d be used to that sort of thing, but it seems not.

    It’s the reaction of D’Israeli to attacks by Daniel O’Connell.

    “Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right honourable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon.”

    • Replies: @Pheasant
  196. indocon says:
    @Anonymous

    The Aryan north shares a lot of traits to southern US – class system, caste system, low emphasis on education, high emphasis on fundamentalist religions, worship of false past, etc

    • Replies: @Anon
  197. @AnotherDad

    Like the Chinese wedded to their elaborate development of primitive pictographic writing, when they encountered people with alphabets around them.

    Or as Seinfeld quipped… eating rice with sticks after they had invented spades.

  198. I vote for the caste system as the cause of India’s chronic underperformance on most measures of material success.

    People work hard and take risks so they can maintain their level within society.

    People work much harder, and take much bigger risks, so they can advance to higher levels within society.

    Reuven Brenner calls it the “Leapfrog Instinct.”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Brenner

    Europe had a history of social stratification as well. But Christianity is very corrosive of any system of segregation or stratification. Too much equality and fraternity among the Jesus freaks for that stuff to really stick.

  199. Newton’s “fluxions” held back British mathematics for 100 years, while Continental mathematics flourished using Leibniz’ “calculus”. Thanks to Joseph T. Nooney, at least we now know that the British can blame the Indians for this setback.

  200. @res

    “Anyone know enough about Chinese history to offer a good reason?”

    No, the following is pinched from The Rise And Fall Of The Great Powers by Paul Kennedy, IIRC he theorised that Chinese unity and central control discouraged scientific (military/industrial) progress in an era where intense intra-European competition was spurring it.

  201. @anonymous

    The right to be superior and the shame of ownership of an unsuccessful country are the key ingredients of India’s unique flavor of anti-white resentment.

    And when the Brahmins come here and find that they are no longer automatically in their rightful place at the top of the tree, there can be only one reason: white racism.

  202. @Pincher Martin

    The Marginal Revolution in economics was a three-man simultaneous breakthrough:

    1862/1871 — William Stanley Jevons (British)
    1871 — Carl Menger (Austrian)
    1874 — Leon Walras (French)

    Different flavors of marginal utility theory, but they were all the same theory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility#Marginal_Revolution

    • Thanks: Pincher Martin
  203. @peterike

    Because Indians have major bad personality traits like deceitfulness, cheating, back-stabbing, and so on. This does not lend itself to application which typically requires some cooperation, something whites are exceptionally good at.

    You could probably say the same thing about East Asians and Eastern Euros, but they seem more capable of practical application on a mass scale.

    Of course, Indians had the caste system, which was a further obstacle to cooperation.

    East Asians and Eastern Euros lived in lands with relatively homogenous populations, even if there was a lack of basic ethics. So with a strong govt hand, cooperation could be forced on the people. With Indians, caste fragmentation made it impossible for the govt to get any cooperation.

    Indians also have an odd combination of high extraversion along with low agreeableness. Which leads to a lot of internal conflict.

    Seems correct. Though that combination is pretty common in all West Asian populations. Mediterranean Euros (Iberians, Italians, Greeks, Albanians), Levantines, Persians, Turks, Gulf Arabs, Jews, Central Asians, Armenians.

    Try dealing with Armenian from LA. Or a Cuban from Miami. Or an Italian from NYC. Or a Maronite from Chicago.

    That personality type seems to create good merchants and traders, but it rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Especially if you’re an Anglo-Germanic American who grew up in an environment in which 50s-style Midwest “nice” was the norm, that sort of personality can seem amazingly obnoxious.

  204. @Jesse

    The caste system most likely had an impact. If you outsource all manual labor to ever lower – and less intelligent – groups, then your smarter castes get better and better at abstraction, but less adept (and more hostile towards) the more practical parts of life. And the very lower castes won’t have the means (nutrition, spare time etc) to become extremely good at the practical things, or the ability to select for higher IQ or really good practical skills.

    I think this is the gist of it.

    In the West we had the Three Estates. But the clergy didn’t breed (substantially) and the nobility slaughtered each other, populated the clergy and could only support so many. Then in Western Europe two huge positive developments: we had the relatively early end of feudalism and the kicking out the Jews.

    The result was some nobility, but otherwise “one people” nations where the most successful farmers–which required both intellectual (planning) and physical effort–were the ones who were populating future generation and in surplus could move into skilled crafts and–lacking a middle man minority sucking up the opportunities–mercantile activity. Essentially downward mobility of people and eugenic fertility–the genes of the smart and hard working flowing out through the population. (The “Farewell to Alms” guy makes this case.)

    In contrast, places dominated by feudalism, caste, middle man minorities lock into mediocrity. Eugenic fertility doesn’t dominate. Skills don’t propagate. Rent seeking rules. People tend to just do the same-old-same-old in their little patch.

    There is just no end of ways where essentially one-people nations are superior. You can bet on some one-people nation–that doesn’t get sucked into minoritarianism and understand evil “Nazi” stuff like eugenics–will win the race. 100 years ago that looked like the US. But minoritarianism has us borderless, celebrating black lives with rioting in the streets.

    • Agree: Zimriel
  205. @Buffalo Joe

    Jesuits? Educators? Aren’t they giving away control of their sinister universities? Don’t get John Derbyshire started on les jésuites.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
  206. Mj says:
    @a guy named me too

    Indian and East Asian women hate white men? Huh? Do you read a lot of Sarah Jeong?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  207. @res

    “I’m not familiar enough with Chinese history to make a good guess.”

    The proximate cause was the An Lu-Shan Rebellion (circa mid 750s), which tore apart the Empire, and broke the back of the T’ang Dynasty, which at that time was the most advanced civilization humanity had ever seen. It stopped all progress dead in its tracks for centuries. China did not really recover until… well, until now, if you want to be severe about it.

    An Lu-Shan, the architect of all this ruin, had a Chinese name but he was not a Han Chinese: he was a Sogdian/Central Asian Turk, who had been welcomed into the Imperial inner circles, and repaid this hospitality by burning everything to the ground, and setting back human advancement a) by centuries, and b) leaving it to the Moslems and Christian Europeans to leapfrog and overawe the Celestial Empire.

    Diversity is our strength! Welcome the likes of Bernard Baruch and Ilhan Omar into your inner circles! What will happen next?

    • Agree: Zimriel
    • Thanks: res, Malla
  208. @Anonymous

    They weren’t really independent at all.

    We could define “independence” so strictly that only discoveries made in a complete vacuum (i.e., hermits living in deserts or on mountaintops) count as independent.

    We could also define it as anything less than a full partnership in a joint project.

    I’m no expert, but Newton and Leibniz seem like a midpoint case to me. I suspect most such cases are closer to the midpoint than to the extremes.

  209. @Anonymous

    Why would you ask a question like that?

  210. @Jesse

    I think the caste system effect is likely stronger than nebulous other “culture” effects.

    I don’t know India well, but my impression is that a lot of it runs on “hot climate time”–i.e., the people are basically safe day to day and don’t have much get-up-n-go, i.e., a little lazy. Also, I have the impression that women do a lot of the manual labor. Both of these would lead to less “application” and could interact with caste effects.

    I note that Indians seem to have taken to computers easily. This is also consistent with the above impressions.

  211. anon. says:

    It’s just like how those two white chicks in Portland stole burritos from the Mexicans and Mexicans had to go without burritos for a couple weeks until the twitter mob shut down the Portland burrito shop.

    • Replies: @anon
  212. Anon[342] • Disclaimer says:
    @clyde

    Yes…we must do the needful.

  213. Anonymous[570] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mj

    Indian and East Asian women hate white men? Huh? Do you read a lot of Sarah Jeong?

    They hate White men as being a distinct group. Their mating with White men serves to subvert that group.

    • Agree: 3g4me
  214. @Jack Armstrong

    Jack, I graduated from a Jesuit College, as did my youngest. My alma mater is facing a $25 million dollar deficit and is laying off tenured faculty. It was once a big player in WNY education. Georgetown will probably expell all the Jesuits and pay reparations for owning slaves. But they were probably well educated slaves.

  215. Cato says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    My understanding also: Matteo Ricci was heavily involved with China, never with India.

  216. Muggles says:
    @Jake

    The hippie can have all kinds of high IQ ideas, and even work them out well, but the hippie faith means those ideas will languish eventually because it is far to much like the Man if they are fully developed and produce real world results.

    Jake, I was trying to figure out what you were talking about.

    I think you’ve been in a time capsule for about 50 years. Hippies are so Richard Nixon.

    Other than a few rich eccentrics like G. Harrison, few if any “hippies” went to India or stayed. Pretending you are poor in a rich country like America is one thing. Or just loafing until you can get the trust fund money.

    But living in an actual shithole country and eat, well, nothing and everything, quickly palls.

    Whatever problem India has (Pakistan and Bangladesh too, though few Hindus) isn’t due to hippies or their alleged ideas. The last real hippie was spotted someplace in Arkansas in 2002. Not seen since.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    , @PiltdownMan
  217. Muggles says:
    @Hannah Katz

    The concept of zero. So the Indians invented nothing?

    Even worse, some Jewish comic from NYC stole that and made a hugely successful TV comedy series about it! His words, “it’s a show about nothing!”

    Talk about cultural appropriation!

    • LOL: kaganovitch
  218. j mct says:

    I’d say the question asked is like finding the root cause of poverty, there is no root cause of poverty, prosperity is weird and needs to be explained.

    So any sort of ‘why the lack of achievement’ question doesn’t really work. I’d say that the Indian success with abstraction needs an explanation, it’s lack of success with the concrete is normal.

    As with the West, why did the West do so well needs explanation. There isn’t going to be a widely believed one either for the foreseeable future since denigrating Western achievement is de rigeur nowadays.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  219. Muggles says:
    @Mike Zwick

    I always thought white people did give credit to inventors of other races. Printing and gunpowder came from China, Algebra, and a lot of applied science from the Arabs and India, the Mayans had a calendar that was much more accurate than the one we use, American Indians bred the most important agricultural crop in the US, corn, etc..

    Yes, and parents always praise their children for bringing back homework with a smiley face drawn on it by the teacher.

    Sometimes you just have to be nice.

  220. Alden says:
    @Anonymous

    The north is poorer because it is muslim.

  221. The unforgivable fact of 2020 is that white men have done most of the great things of the last 600 years. This deeply angers many resentful nonwhite people today that their ancestors didn’t accomplish much.

    As T.S. Eliot asked: “After such knowledge, what forgiveness?”

    The fact of 2020.

    I think the phenomenon of resentful Morlocks with a “When We Wuz Kangs” attitude, whether they be the woke or Hindu supremacists, is of relatively recent vintage, from the last half-century or so.

    Many years ago, I read a book on the history of India by the first prime minister, Nehru, who was a major figure in their nationalist movement. While he went on at length about the cultural glories of millenia past, he seemed to be dismissive of it, too, talking about stagnation, repitition and a lack of creativity in the national character for the last thousand years. Similarly, it doesn’t seem to me that the first generation of black activists, such as Martin Luther King, Jr., spoke much of Africa’s wonders, but chose, instead, to anchor their philosophical musings in the non-violent message of Gospels and such.

  222. Alden says:
    @Anonymous

    4. reasons technology and infrastructure in Europe collapsed after Rome fell.

    1 And most important the Justinian plague roughly about 500 to 650 AD killed far more than the later Black Plague ever did. There were not enough people left to teach the younger generations for almost 200 years. Most conventional histories don’t even mention the massive depopulation. Most historians don’t even know about it. Ignorance

    2 Slavery. The Roman Empire was built on cheap labor slavery. Many, in fact most in agriculture, construction and the great engineering feats, were just worked to death and cheaply and easily replaced. It really wasn’t till about 1500-1700 that there were first enough people and second, enough money to train and pay them to build modern infrastructure.

    3 Destruction by the later Roman Empire invasions. The visigoths really destroyed the water system of Rome. Saxons destroyed Romanized Britain and either killed or ran off to Wales and the far north west the natives who had the knowledge and skills to preserve Roman infrastructure and construction Lots of similar examples all over Europe Saxons didn’t even build 2 story buildings.

    4. What with all the invasions, warlord anarchy etc 400-1200 the population fled the cities for remote rural areas. Cities were always the targets of the invaders and war lords. Safer in the country where they could least grow food and form their own armies under a local warlord.

    Think Rotterdam, Hamburg, Berlin, Warsaw in 1946. But with no one left with the skills, money or incentive to rebuild

    • Replies: @Francis Miville
  223. Peterike says:
    @Dave from Oz

    “ Technological development does not occur in places that have slaves, or a vast underclass of de-facto slaves. ”

    Just how Mestizo stoop labor held back America from mechanizing fruit and vegetable picking.

  224. There are far, far too many IYIs on this thread attributing causative power to “the caste system” without recognizing that it, too, is an invention of the very same Indian culture whose lack of inventiveness you are commissioning it to explain. It didn’t just drop out of the sky, folks. It also requires an explanation; it is not itself one.

  225. @clyde

    the needful

    Request you do the needful and revert.

  226. @Muggles

    Other than a few rich eccentrics like G. Harrison, few if any “hippies” went to India or stayed.

    He’s using it as a figure of speech to denote a certain kind of personality and type.

    India was well known as a hippie destination in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The overland “hippie trail” from Europe ended in India, on the beaches of Goa, India.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie_trail

    • Replies: @Malla
  227. @Muggles

    Other than a few rich eccentrics like G. Harrison, few if any “hippies” went to India or stayed.

    He’s using it as a figure of speech to denote a certain kind of personality and type.

    India was well known as a hippie destination in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The overland “hippie trail” from Europe ended in India, on the beaches of Goa, India.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie_trail

  228. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    Now I’m going to sound all Leftist ‘n stuff — but much of what we think of as simply self-evidently objective reality is often a cultural construct. Cultures vary more than people realize; and if the culture is sufficiently alien, the behavior of its adherents will become simply incomprehensible. Even when Indians ape us — or we ape Indians — we don’t get a translation so much as a kind of intellectual monstrosity.

    Agreed. The basic philosophical questions have no known answers, none that can be checked by observation, so and most of them have been answered differently by different people over time. Each set of answers yields (by definition) a different way of organizing reality, and the different ways really are incommensurate in any known abstract way. That’s why arguing as to “which is best” is a waste of time.

    What is not a waste of time is living according to the answers of your social group. Some of these answers have led to considerable evolutionary advantage (e.g. Greece’s Polis, Rome, the Mongols, Chinese Imperial Thought, Judaism, Christianity) through development of a tool set and social organization that could overcome most or all opponents. That is the only know way of making different answer sets commensurate, and it’s intellectually suspect – rather like deciding between phlogiston (*) release and combustion of oxidizers and reducers by having a 30 paces at dawn duel. Not that I haven’t seen the equivalent to such a way of determining dominant theories several times, mind you.

    Thought on Unz.com seems to be veering toward realization of the above, and advocacy of ceasing to try the equivalent of teaching cat to deep sea dive and fish to catch mice. Sounds like a good idea to me.

    *) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory

  229. Cido says:
    @Hibernian

    From an O’ Meara, no less. The monks kept the Scriptures alive, there was some scientific progress, what came later depended on what came before, some people found those manuscripts inspiring, yadda, yadda.

    Of course there were some progress in the Middle Ages, but they were few, and between the end of the period, and the beginning of the Renaissance. People nowadays don’t like the term “Dark Ages”, but in fact the Middle Ages were worse than the Classical period economically and intellectually.

  230. @Anon

    It’s absurd to think 4000BC Mediterranean and Near East Chieftains would notice their Northern Blonde brides produced unusually intelligent, cunning and brave charioteer warriors. As we know, from our own historical experience in the US, American Indians — anthropological equivalents to 4000 BC Near East nomads — rarely coveted white settler girls. And when they reluctantly took them, largely out of generosity, the resulting offspring rarely rose to tribal leadership.

    We also know husbands will rarely pay homage to their favored wife’s spiritual beliefs to keep her happy. The sudden emergence of a Sky God throughout the Mediterranean and Near East in 3000BC – 1000BC was just a total anthropological coincidence. The rise of Amun Ra in Egypt, like many other Sky Kings among Kings had nothing to do with the fact the Pharaohs were suddenly white with red or blonde hair. Total coincidence.

    The early ancient ruling class was “white” because they spent less time in the sun, like Alexander the Great, who was blonde, fair-skinned and had one blue eye. The lack of sunlight will do that to a person, and make them look like an warrior Abercrombie model.

  231. @candid_observer

    Perhaps Ramanujan can stand as a proxy for the differences between Western mathematicians and those of India. He was, as a calculator, perhaps second to none in all of mathematics. But he was incapable of careful, abstract generalization and thought. There’s no way mathematics could grow into the body of knowledge we enjoy today if it were only mathematicians of Ramanujan’s stripe who contributed, however many.

    This is simply wrong. Ramanujam’s work as a mathematician is deep, abstract, and of a fundamental nature. He was no circus sideshow human calculator, but a major figure in the history of mathematics, akin to Bernoulli, and possibly Euler.

    That he had only no prior exposure, as a college dropout, to early 20th century standards of formal proof in pure mathematics is largely irrelevant. He picked that up when he went to Cambridge.

    Equally, ancient Indian mathematicians and their work are not simply a record of human calculators and tour-de-forces of computation. Much of the half-millenium and older work in math in India is not cast in the standard Euclidean mold, but instead, often posed as riddles, which tease out and require a great deal of abstract though—that is the specific intent of that alien method of pedagogy.

    Here’s a specimen of Ramanujan’s work.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  232. nebulafox says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Some of it can be cultural. I’ve known Malay and Filipina women who were very well educated and intelligent, but also-despite their respective Islamic and Catholic faiths-very superstitious. They’d even joke about it.

    Most people are indifferent to logical consistency. I suspect this is where the mental disconnect for what we might label “natural” atheists/agnostics/skeptics, who tend not to be the most intuitive of people, lies.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  233. nebulafox says:
    @PiltdownMan

    >This is simply wrong. Ramanujam’s work as a mathematician is deep, abstract, and of a fundamental nature.

    Guys like Ramanujan are the most effective refutation of blank slate theory I can conjure up. Man was born in backwater British India and nearly starved in his pursuit of math, but he could not be dissuaded from what he was just meant to do. Does anybody seriously believe that if they just worked hard enough, they could be like him? That’s what blank slate theory, taken to its extreme, would imply, and I’d argue this kind of thinking is a significant part in why modern Western societies treat their native working classes with such contempt.

    Some people are just born with mental firepower that most people cannot fathom. You have to learn to be OK with that if you want to push yourself to your own limits, modest as they might comparatively be.

    >Hindu nationalists claim it is because of the Muslim invasions from the West, but there may be more complex explanations.

    I don’t think that’s it. The Mughals were a conquest dynasty that retained a sense of separateness from the people they ruled, but they became as Indianized with time as the Manchus became Sinicized, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims in South Asia have predominantly South Asian ancestry, despite what many Pakistanis claim. There was no disruptive break with Hindu civilization, despite the massive imprint the Mughals left on the subcontinent. Moreover, intellectual development in Persia and Persianate Central Asia didn’t stop with the rise of Islam: much of the ballyhooed wisdom of Baghdad came from recently (and sometimes nominally) converted Zoroastrians. Why would it have been different in India?

    I’m hornswoggled to suggest what it was, though. Any theories?

    >As for the modern West, though we fondly connect it’s traditions to ancient Greece and Rome, the fact is that our modern, material scientific civilization, with its great focus on altering the physical world around us, is sui generis.

    I agree heavily with this. It’s underestimated how much the medieval Christian worldview-if not the material circumstances and wealth-had in common with the pagan classical age for the majority of people. For example, the notion that military victory was correlated with divine favor didn’t change much, and played a key role in the rise of both Christianity and Islam.

    What happened in the West over the past several centuries really is unique, to the point that other civilizations had no choice but to ape much of it.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  234. @res

    Understandable. The topic of my comment seems well enough understood. It is just that being able to make it quantitative would open up some good opportunities for analysis. Also, I think better understanding the relative importance of the three factors I mentioned for increasing population would be helpful for improving innovation in the present.

    And I think you’re right when there is a strong and rigorous scientific culture already in place. But without that culture, I don’t think your model has much validity.

    Technical discoveries can build up in abundance without a pattern to the discovery, much as they did in ancient China. Or proto-scientific discoveries can slowly disappear (or become static conventions) as they are melded into a stronger civilization, much as the flourishing science of the Hellenistic period gave way to Roman imperial achievements.

    Bringing this discussion up to date, I also think it’s entirely possible that modern China could overtake the Europeans as a global power for the next three centuries without adding nearly as much scientific value to the world’s store of knowledge as was added by the much smaller population of Western Europe from 1600 to 1950. This is something your model doesn’t predict or even suggest.

    We don’t even need to consider China. Will we Europeans be as inventive over the next 400 years as we have been over the last 400 years? Basing it just on the population of smart people, as your model does, I would think it would be pretty easy call to make. But I’m doubtful.

    I thought the simple narrative about the Greeks being more about philosophy and theory and the Romans more about engineering and military/political power was enough to explain that?

    Some claim the ancient Greeks were smarter.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @res
  235. @nebulafox

    The second part of my post, which you replied to, seems to have disappeared. Weird. Anyway, here it is, albeit out of sequence now.

    The really interesting question about Indian civilization is not why it is not rich—it is—but rather, why did it stagnate for the last five hundred or a thousand years? Hindu nationalists claim it is because of the Muslim invasions from the West, but there may be more complex explanations.

    As for the modern West, though we fondly connect it’s traditions to ancient Greece and Rome, the fact is that our modern, material scientific civilization, with its great focus on altering the physical world around us, is sui generis.

    India’s civilization has few ancient monuments, its physical tools and implements have advanced little since the first millenium A.D. Our science since 1400 A.D.— physics, chemistry, engineering and invention—arises from our culture’s obsessive engagement with the physical world around us and our endeavor to change it, not from purely abstract and intellectual pursuits.

  236. Anonymous[433] • Disclaimer says:

    The Maya or their predecessors, perhaps the Olmec, independently invented zero. Not bad for an ag society without the wheel isolated in the Yucatan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals

    “…The Mayan numeral system… numerals are made up of three symbols; zero (shell shape, with the plastron uppermost), one (a dot) and five (a bar).”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0#Pre-Columbian_Americas

    “…Although zero became an integral part of Maya numerals, with a different, empty tortoise-like “shell shape” used for many depictions of the “zero” numeral, it is assumed to have not influenced Old World numeral systems.”


    About Newton and Leibniz and the calculus… Kepler’s Laws had thrown down the challenge. Telescopes and Copernican ideas pushed astronomers to wonder about related questions… Galileo’s work on motion existed… logarithms, coordinate systems, and analytic geometry had been invented… The time was ripe.

    About Roman math and Roman numerals… the numerals seem to have evolved from herder’s tally-stick counts. Perhaps it was an advantage to have a system for writing numbers that probably could be learned by an illiterate sheep herder in a day. Systems such as the Mayan and others seemed to have been the province of a small number of court astronomers focused on calendar calculations.

  237. nebulafox says:
    @Pincher Martin

    >Some claim the ancient Greeks were smarter.

    The Romans themselves gave the cultural ground to the Greeks and were quite happy to do so: by the early imperium, Greek was already a de facto co-equal language to Latin. The traditional Roman strengths were government, law, and engineering.

    Virgil himself laid out how they saw it during the famous underworld passage of the Aeneid:

    “Others, I have no doubt, will forge the bronze to breathe with suppler lines, draw from the block of marble features quick with life, plead their cases better, chart with their rods the stars that climb the sky and foretell the times they rise. But you, Roman, remember, rule with all your power the peoples of the earth—these will be your arts: to put your stamp on the works and ways of peace, to spare the defeated, break the proud in war.”

    There’s actually an odd parallel in the Islamic World, with the Arabs playing the Latin role, the Persians the Greek one, and the Turks being the Germans, if we think of the caliphate as imitating the Roman empire on fast forward. You could even think of the various Iranian successor states as being akin to Byzantium, reverting to using Persian rather than Arabic despite keeping the Islamic religion and structures of rule.

    • Thanks: Pincher Martin
  238. nebulafox says:
    @Anonymous

    >Just look at what happened to Baghdad after a single genocidal Mongol conquest- from being the intellectual capital of the world to a crap backwater.

    Too many times we tend to forget how shockingly nasty to modern sensibilities the pre-modern world was to civilians in warfare, and to people at the bottom of the social scale in general. Mass killings, rape, and plunder were taken for granted. The notion of human rights here is very new, even in Europe: just look at the average experience of a German peasant during the Thirty Year’s War. That’s the historical norm, not our current reality.

    It is true that the Mongol conquests were excessively brutal and blood soaked even on ancient/medieval world standards: but from my (I stress-limited) knowledge, it was less steppe sadism and more an effective calculated MO to get people to surrender beforehand without a fight. But I’m not sure if we can attribute the decline of culture in the Islamic World to them alone. After all, many of the Mongols would take up Islam and would be absorbed into the Persianate or Turkic culture around them, leading to the guys who would themselves eventually conquer India. The native shamanism of the conquerors was too alien and primitive for them to themselves absorb the locals into their theological system, so…

    The Mughals were different: to the end, they saw themselves as different and ruled in no less a “colonial” way than the British, and (thank you Razib Khan) set up a massively extractive rentier state. But I’m not sure that’s because of Islam or the brutality of the conquests: I think it is more that the West separated from the rest. Most of the world was dirt poor for most of human history, and South India’s development probably didn’t diverge much from their northern neighbors until modern times. I’m sure cultural differences do play a role-which ultimately does factor into the Muslim conquests-but there’s political and economic differences, too. South India’s post-colonial local leadership seems to be far better, for one thing. South India is also more compact, less populous, and easier to lay infrastructure down in.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/07/16/the-ubiquity-of-the-rentier-state/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @sarz
  239. anon[463] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Just look at what happened to Baghdad after a single genocidal Mongol conquest- from being the intellectual capital of the world to a crap backwater.

    Yeah, the Mongols moved their encampment further away from conquered Baghdad because the stench of rotting flesh was too strong even for them. But that was in 1258.

    Yet in 2005 Arabs were still insisting that the problems with Baghdad and even Mesopotamia were due to the Mongols. Guys who went to the sandbox heard it more than once.

    If 700+ years isn’t enough time to fix stuff up, then how many more centuries are needed?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  240. @j mct

    why did the West do so well needs explanation.

    The usual explanation would be that the cultural foundation in the Judeo-Christian tradition brought – a) defense and civilized knights, and that the flourishing of b) the crafts and trade in medieval times was thus accompanied with c) the resurrection of the sciences (that too started big scale in medieval times – Hermanus Contractus (1013 – 1054 calender, cosmic calculations, the subject of calculation Computus)) marked one of the Trans-European starting points.

    Carl-Friedrich Gauß wrote in 1801 in a foreword of his Disquisitiones Arithmetica just how wonderful it occurred to him that the (Christian, mind you) Brunswick emperor would enable the publication of his work, even though it was widely looked upon as being “useless” and “futile”. Gauß himself made the connection to the Christian roots of his Duke Karl Wilhelm of Brunswick.

    As an aside: Seen from the 1801 perspective, it made a lot of sense to point out the inner connectedness of the mathematical findings of Gauß – and the sphere of the miracle. It is a wonder of sorts that such abstract findings as Gauß’ did indeed turn out to make sense in the real world. – A miracle that is not even fully accepted today if you think of – – – Gauß’ bell curve – – – and The Bell Curve…

  241. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @indocon

    True. Look at the Canadian Sikhs.

  242. Tracy says:
    @Dave from Oz

    You don’t need steam engines when you have slaves or untouchables to pump the water out of the mines, which is why in Europe it was not discovered until the enlightenment, and why the Romans didn’t invent the horse collar.

    What “slaves or untouchables” in Europe before the “Englightenment” are you referring to?

  243. Tracy says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    I’m not sure how much anyone has ever been harmed by an absence of metaphysics.

    Believing that there is order to the universe is sort of a prerequisite to discovering that order. Things like thinking that everything is just illusion, or that God is whimsical and can contradict Himself, etc., isn’t conducive to science or the tech that comes from it.

  244. Anonymous[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, lack of unity rather than military weakness or incompetence was what sank the Greeks. Alexander was a rare ruler who was able to unite all Greeks under a single government. That fell apart as soon as he died and Greeks went back to fighting each other. The Romans were able to pick them off one by one.

    There’s a parallel with Mohammed and the Arabs, also a notoriously fractious people, who also went back to squabbling with each other after his death. Just as the Romans took over Alexander’s empire, so the Persians and Turks took over Mohammed’s.

  245. Anonymous[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave from Oz

    It is significant that windmills only became widespread in Europe after the Black Death. We can assume that before then flour was ground by hand.

    • Replies: @Peter Lund
  246. @Cido

    Correlation took forever to be developed even though big databases existed in the past: the Bible mentions at least 3 Censuses.

  247. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    Now I’m going to sound all Leftist ‘n stuff — but much of what we think of as simply self-evidently objective reality is often a cultural construct. Cultures vary more than people realize; and if the culture is sufficiently alien, the behavior of its adherents will become simply incomprehensible. Even when Indians ape us — or we ape Indians — we don’t get a translation so much as a kind of intellectual monstrosity.

    Agreed. The basic philosophical questions have no known answers, none that can be checked by observation, so and most of them have been answered differently by different societies over time. Each set of answers yields (by definition) a different way of organizing reality, and the different ways really are incommensurate in any known abstract way. Each way that has survived has is considered by the society using it as the sole set of answers. The “sole set of answers” sets up an evolutionarily stable strategy (ESS, **) that has in turn bred for people who think in terms of the ESS . That’s why arguing as to “which is best” is a waste of time.

    As Colin Wright points out, there is some question as to whether any communication beyond simple trade translations is possible between groups using different answers to the basic set above. To take some current examples, the PRC seems unable to understand the Western idea of “free trade” and “commonwealth”. At least some Jewish groups seem unable to understand the idea of free inquiry, regarding it as pilpul gone wrong. For that matter, the BIPOC coalition seems unable to understand the idea of government except as force and fraud.

    What is not a waste of time is living according to the answers of your social group. Some of these answers have led to considerable evolutionary advantage (e.g. Greece’s Polis, Rome, the Mongols, Chinese Imperial Thought, Judaism, Christianity) through development of a tool set and social organization that could overcome most or all opponents. That is the only know way of making different answer sets commensurate, and it’s intellectually suspect – rather like deciding between phlogiston (*) release and combustion of oxidizers and reducers by having a 30 paces at dawn duel. Not that I haven’t seen the equivalent to such a way of determining dominant theories several times, mind you.

    Thought on Unz.com seems to be veering toward realization of the above, and advocacy of ceasing to try the equivalent of teaching cats to deep sea dive and fish to catch mice and hunt birds. Sounds like a good idea to me.

    *) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory
    **) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionarily_stable_strategy

  248. Templar says:

    In Europe the people of the Atlantic coasts developed more technical innovation and more ideas of political activism.
    A ship’s crew is a democratic microcosm where everyone has an opinion whether on the course of the ship or the best way to repair a mast.
    A society where peasants could run off and become sailors ( or fishermen) will always out perform a nation of sodbusters.
    Any chinless aristocrat can lead a regiment of cavalry but a ship’s captain has to be a high IQ type with a good grasp of geometry and trigonometry. Thus social nobodies like Columbus, Drake , Magellan or Henry Morgan could find rapid promotion based on sheer ability
    A ship is by definition a very complex machine and constant trial and error improved them over the centuries, whether it was developing a ship’s wheel to turn the rudder or better methods of safely storing gun powder, sailors automatically sought a new and better way of doing things.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Anonymous
  249. @Mr. Blank

    Good question. I’m guessing the printing press, c. 1450, changed everything. Now, enough people could hear about a new idea that one of the readers would dream up the next step. So the piecemeal aspect of invention becomes more of a smooth curve of accumulating knowledge.

  250. @Templar

    But a sailing ship also required one man, the captain, to be in charge during crises.

    It’s an inherently complex and interesting political situation. That’s presumably why Americans used to be fascinated by the Mutiny on the Bounty story, and it’s American echoes like the “Caine Mutiny Court Martial.” It’s pretty interesting from a Constitutional standpoint to try to figure out a system of rules that should govern in all situations.

    Pirates had pretty interesting political arrangements because sailors could jump ship in port. And presumably a mutiny on a pirate ship was more likely to succeed in the long run than in a Royal Navy ship where it weighed heavily on the mutineers that the Royal Navy would hunt them down to the ends of the Earth.

    My guess is that a lot of Anglo political ideas were tested out on ships. From my American perspective, where we value checks and balances and federalism, the British constitution seems precipitous. The Prime Minister can do pretty much anything he gets a majority to do. Some striking examples include Mrs. Thatcher firing the Mayor of London and abolishing his job and Mr. Blair tearing up the counties of England and inventing new counties.

    Britain has sort of a pirate ship unwritten constitution that is supportive of decisive action. Basically, the British system exists to defeat other Great Powers in wars. The conservative temper of the British voters and elites means it hasn’t really been stretched to the limit.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  251. @prime noticer

    We still use Newton’s “dot above the variable” notation in physics, in which it means “differentiated with respect to time”. Two dots means “differentiated twice with respect to time”, etc. It is far more elegant than Leibniz’ for that purpose.

    We use Leibniz’ integral sign and sometimes use his dy/dx notation for differentiation. We usually use Lagrange’s f'(x), though.

    (There are many other old notations for integration and differentiation that are still in use for various purposes. Many!)

    The limit notation (as a well-defined notion of limits) came later. The epsilon-delta proofs also came later. Leibniz and Newton were long dead by then.

    Limits are how we got around Bishop Berkeley’s “ghosts of departed quantities” argument against calculus.

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Thanks: prime noticer
  252. (e.g. zero sounds simple to have invented but that’s because some Indian invented it)

    Jaime Escalante once said that the Mayans invented zero. I wonder who is right?

    • Replies: @Malla
  253. @theMann

    At its core its the Anglo characteristic of trust, honesty and openness.
    I stopped at a farm stand today on a busy road, loaded up with peppers, tomatoes etc and left my cash.
    On Tuesday I stopped at one that had an empty hut except for their home grown produce and meat. There was several hundred dollars of beef. Their $6 a pound burgers were excellent.

    The belief in man being in the likeness of God- everybody containing the spark of divinity is also a big deal. Nietzsche’s proclamation that God was deal was a lamentation of the upcoming societal collapse and here we are.

  254. @Clyde

    Thanks for clearing that up. I did not know that.

  255. Anonymous[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Templar

    IIRC, there was a famous shipwreck in the 18th century that happened because the crew, who knew the waters, were afraid to challenge the captain, who didn’t.

    There’s also the case of SS Californian doing nothing while Titanic sank because the crew didn’t want to wake the captain.

  256. Libre says:

    NB: until the beginning of “political correctness” aka Marxist redefining in the 1960s, Indian referred solely to feather wearing folk in the Americas. The term for the subcontinent people was Hindu or Hindoo. Spanish retains this nomenclature.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @techvet
  257. Libre says:
    @Check yer facts

    That’s white supremacism, which is patently ridiculous. White nationalism is simply pride in being white. Other than that, agree.

  258. @OilcanFloyd

    Add to that one small piece of the sociopsychological finding: That regular guys on average are less prone to neurotic (=ineffective, self-centered, bullshit-leaning) ideas than the high IQ ones.

    (This bit of info explains a lot of the successes taking place in northern Europe because there was a long time a close-knit connection between the crafts-people and the more genius-oriented 0,0…%).

    It is good for the engineer, to talk to craftspersons.

    I know one Swiss guy who won the Pritzker prize and who is very (very!) appreciative of the craftspeople he always tries to work with whenever he is working on a new project. He is one of my top examples. Another one is Reinhold Würth, who managed to build a world-wide empire on screws and connected items – and at the same time build a dozen art museums all over the world. something nobody else could achieve. Now – Würth was always very close to his regular sales-person. He understood that that’s the core of his empire – this connection. He reflected on it too and spoke about it.

    There are two now rather well-known psychologists, who have explicitly stated what I say above. Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt. – As far as I can see – nobody else but the three of us. I wish it were more because I’m pretty sure, that this connection between mid-level guys and people with high potentials is a key to decent and effective (= sane, Erich Fromm) societies.

    • Thanks: Gabe Ruth
    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  259. res says:
    @Anonymous

    Leibniz’s dy/dx notation also extends much more cleanly to the multivariate case (and makes the chain rule easy to understand).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notation_for_differentiation

    Note that Newton did have an extension for the two variable case (see wiki), but I don’t think it generalizes well.

    Any thoughts on Lagrange’s or Euler’s notations?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  260. anon[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon.

    My wife and I live in Seattle. We made a trip to San Francisco some years ago and ate in a nice seafood restaurant – we wanted to try the SF seafood selection.
    The waitress excitedly told us their specialty of the day was salmon that had been flown in from Seattle.
    It seems cultural theft is happening all over the place. Shocking!

  261. peterike says:
    @Dieter Kief

    Hans Magnus Enzensberger (born 1929, still going strong) did write a truly great poem about mills and progress in his collection of poems called Mausoleum

    The much under-rated and mostly forgotten American poet Edwin Arlington Robinson wrote a brilliant little poem about a miller.

    The Mill
    BY EDWIN ARLINGTON ROBINSON

    The miller’s wife had waited long,
    The tea was cold, the fire was dead;
    And there might yet be nothing wrong
    In how he went and what he said:
    “There are no millers any more,”
    Was all that she had heard him say;
    And he had lingered at the door
    So long that it seemed yesterday.

    Sick with a fear that had no form
    She knew that she was there at last;
    And in the mill there was a warm
    And mealy fragrance of the past.
    What else there was would only seem
    To say again what he had meant;
    And what was hanging from a beam
    Would not have heeded where she went.

    And if she thought it followed her,
    She may have reasoned in the dark
    That one way of the few there were
    Would hide her and would leave no mark:
    Black water, smooth above the weir
    Like starry velvet in the night,
    Though ruffled once, would soon appear
    The same as ever to the sight.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  262. res says:
    @Pincher Martin

    And I think you’re right when there is a strong and rigorous scientific culture already in place. But without that culture, I don’t think your model has much validity.

    I think it is better to see it as the scientific culture being another important variable for the model. I think the original model will still work for invention/discovery in a different given culture, but clearly needs extension to work between cultures. The extension would be to have culture, average ability, and population all affect lambda (invention rate). Another possible variable is some form of “stress” or “pressure.” That might be influenced by things like war or famine.

    Again, what is interesting to me about the model is trying to understand the relative magnitudes of the different effects and relate that to reality.

    Will we Europeans be as inventive over the next 400 years as we have been over the last 400 years? Basing it just on the population of smart people, as your model does, I would think it would be pretty easy call to make. But I’m doubtful.

    That is the interesting and important question (and I tend to agree with your doubt). There are a few things going on here.
    – Distractions (alternatively, priorities). If a significant proportion of the smart population is engaging in woke studies or financial rent seeking (other possible distractions exist of course, like focus on legalistic pie splitting rather than enlarging) that will impact the rate of invention.
    – Low hanging fruit. It is not clear to me how the difficulty of invention changes over time. There are arguments for it being either sublinear (synergy with existing knowledge) or superlinear (low hanging fruit).
    – How to measure inventions? Revolutionary vs. evolutionary. Effect on people’s lives?
    – And the big one I think you are focusing on: scientific culture.
    – – Search for truth vs. affirming (or justifying) what people want to be true.
    – – Working together vs. competing. (alternatively, openness vs. secrecy)
    – – Degree to which science is respected and rewarded.
    – – Any more?

    Some claim the ancient Greeks were smarter.

    I tend to go along with that. The question is, “how much so?” If the Greeks were smarter, what is the relative importance of that compared to the (oversimplified) cultural differences I described?

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  263. @Altai

    At the risk of being unnecessarily thick, can you explain this?

    ” Indians make Poles and Chinese look like Swedes.”

  264. Anonymous[166] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    No, that was Ted Heath, back in 1974 who more or less wiped out hundreds of years of historical continuity be re defining England and Wales and Scotland’s ancient counties.
    So it was goodbye to Rutland, Radnorshire and Ross-shire, and not to mention the wonderfully sounding ‘Lothians’, Midlothian etc, Glamorganshire mid Glamorgan, Brecknockshire, Haddingtonshire, Wigtownshire etc.

    Tony Blair merely abolished the English *people*.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  265. @res

    Lagrange & Euler are just extensions of Leibniz. With some imagination & slightly stretched, the same can be said for differential forms of Cartan etc.

  266. @Steve Sailer

    It is important, but not that important. I would just recommend a few very good works.

    [MORE]

  267. @Anonymous

    Or by watermills or by animal-driven mills.

    The Romans had plenty of large-scale watermills:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbegal_aqueduct_and_mills

    The Barbegal milling complex is not the only one but it is the best documented one.

    They weren’t the only ones:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_watermills

    They also had industrial mills for mining/smithing. They even had sawmills.
    https://www.romae-vitam.com/ancient-roman-mills.html

  268. George says:

    If only somebody in Indian had thought to make more than one copy of calculus

    White guy Rene Descartes came up with Cartesian Geometry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_geometry#History

    1) The Indian guy could not formulate what we call Calculus without first having the tool Cartesian Geometry.

    2)Even if the Indian super brain could come up with it, the only copy of Calculus would stay in his brain because without Cartesian Geometry he could not communicate it to non super brains.

    3)Hindus are polytheistic and can’t understand infinity, the central concept of Christianity and Calculus.

    Abrahamic God = Sum of all the polytheistic gods because of the Trinity, or something like that

  269. Muggles says:
    @Anonymous

    The Mongols weren’t Muslims were they?

    Genghis Khan was an animist or nature worshiper. He was religiously tolerant and was one of the few rulers at the time who didn’t persecute other believers. He didn’t conquer Baghdad.

    I believe only Tamerlane (Timor the Lame) who was of mixed Mongol/Turkic ancestry did the sacking and looting of Baghdad. He was Muslim, but only very indirectly related to Genghis, though he posed as a descendant. He liked to pile up the skulls of the defeated enemies, as was seen in Baghdad. .

    A famous story about Tamerlane (WARNING: mansplaining ahead!).

    A Jesuit priest visiting Samarkand, Tamerlane’s capital, asked him why he had killed so many Muslims during his conquests of India and central Asia. He was famous for killing everyone in cities that didn’t surrender to him without battle.

    Tamerlane replied to the priest, “but they were bad Muslims!”

    There is the Islamic world in a sentence. Much like the Christians it seems.

    • Replies: @Zimriel
    , @anon
    , @CCG
  270. Anonymous[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Libre

    Lever action vs. push button

  271. Zimriel says:
    @Muggles

    The sack of Baghdad was Hulegu Khan, an animist like Temujin. Timur the Moslem might have sacked it again although IIRC he mostly killed his fellow Turks.

    • Replies: @Muggles
  272. Gabe Ruth says:
    @Dieter Kief

    Lol now you’re just trying to trigger poor Physicist Dave. You got started young!

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  273. @RichardTaylor

    Actually, it was the opposite.

    The earlier Dravidian-speaking peoples (who originated in Iran) built a highly advanced civilization. Their civilization was destroyed by the Aryan/Yamnaya pastoralists, who were ferocious warriors.

    Akin to the Mongol invasion of China.

  274. anon[383] • Disclaimer says:
    @Muggles

    believe only Tamerlane (Timor the Lame) who was of mixed Mongol/Turkic ancestry did the sacking and looting of Baghdad

    No, it was Hulugu Khan…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulagu_Khan

    …who one point he attempted to form an alliance with the French and other Europeans to finish off the Islamic Mamluks, while the remaining Crusader states stayed neutral.

    Known history is often stranger than we think…the unknown history is surely even stranger.

  275. Bannon says:
    @Zippy

    So why gild the lily with this stuff? These guys — Latimer and the Indian math guys — are impressive even if you tell the truth. They had real accomplishments! Why the need to exaggerate?

    Because the point is not to build up blacks, but to aggressively attack whites, and portray them as great pretenders and usurpers.

  276. Anonymous[875] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    The West certainly separated from the rest, no doubt about that.

    But North India suffered yugely from the Muslim conquests. When you go looking for ancient Hindu temples, there’s barely any left from Afghanistan to Bengal, which is the historical core of Hindu culture. There’s only ruins.

    There’s lots of really impressive, imposing Islamic buildings in the North. And invariably when you dig underneath them, you find Hindu temples which were demolished.

    On the other hand, there are many many functioning temples in the South, whose construction can be traced back hundreds of years, with periodic additions and reinforcements. To this day, traditional high Hindu culture is better maintained in South India than in the North.

    The North’s present-day Hindu culture is of a rustic bumpkin flavor. Because Hindu temples were the centers of social and intellectual activity, and Brahmins were specifically targeted for genocide by Islamic invaders during their incursions. What remained in the North was the culture of the Hindu peasantry.

    To this day the stereotype seen in Bollywood movies is of cultured Muslims and bumpkin Hindus – because that was what was left in the core Sanskritic belt, after the Muslims were done with their Musliming.

    So authentic Hindu culture survived only in the periphery, in the deep South and in the Himalayan mountains, like in Nepal. The core itself was devastated.

    It’s like Russia proclaiming itself the inheritor of Byzantine culture. While their claim is partially correct, the vigor and vitality of Byzantine Greek culture was lost after Constantinople fell.

    • Replies: @sarz
    , @Malla
  277. Anonymous[875] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    One thoroughly genocidal conquest usually means that civilization is gone for good. Look at the Maya or Inca or Aztec.

    Being able to bounce back from a genocidal conquest shows definitive proof of civilizational strength, as seen in the Arab world post Mongol conquest, or Hindus post Islam.

    The problem with bouncing back is that often these conquests take away the top shelf of your human capital. The only ones left alive are rural bumpkins, people who live in hills, nomads and other such groups who are hard to line up and murder. As opposed to educated, productive city dwellers who are sitting ducks.

    So usually the resurgence doesn’t achieve the same heights the older civilization did.

    • Thanks: Neoconned
    • Replies: @anon
  278. jb says:
    @jb

    Oops. I know this is a bit OCD, but the quote should be

    …abstract formal principles…

  279. @Gabe Ruth

    That’s what I love about Isteve – audiences are almost over-apprehensive (that’s what Eric Clapton once said – on the liner notes for – – – Live at Budokan. Was he sober when he wrote these lines? I dunno).

    Ah – and that were my great grandparents on my mother’s side with the sleeping poppies. On my fathers side, there was – a pub and a dancehall (I remember The Dominos and The Blue Stars) with live music plus a butcher shop. My mother – a true beauty, ran the bar, which was right under the stage in the basement.
    (What this – öh – setting – did in the long run – growing up literally standing at the beer counter – many times with quite drunk people surrounding you: It took almost all the magic out of drugs for me).

  280. @peterike

    Thanks. Didn’t know that. Now – if this were accidental, it would astonish me more than if it weren’t: Enzensberger might have known Arlington Robinson’s charming poem – and quoted it silently in the last line of his above-mentioned poem about mills and inventor and entrepreneur Oliver Evans. This last line in Enzensbergers poem reads: A mill, but no miller anymore. (Eine Mühle, aber kein Müller mehr).

    I think I’ll send Enzensberger our exchange and ask him.

  281. @Anonymous

    Indeed. Apart from the reasons you give for loathing Grocer Heath, I have my own personal one: a very close relation’s husband was the last Lord Lieutenant of one of the counties you mention.
    His heir was later High Sheriff of the successor place, but even he considered that a much lesser because less historically resonant honour.

  282. @Dieter Kief

    Wonderful, Dieter. Your Catholic Urgrosseltern are interceding for you – I was about to say “right now” but of course can only mean “eternally”.

    I remember the haunting cave-like swimming grotto you once highlighted – beautiful photos from there too.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  283. Muggles says:
    @Zimriel

    The sack of Baghdad was Hulegu Khan, an animist like Temujin. Timur the Moslem might have sacked it again although IIRC he mostly killed his fellow Turks.

    Per Wikipedia: re: Timur (also referred to as Tamerlane) “He was a member of the Barlas, a Mongolian tribe[38][39] that had been turkified in many aspects.”

    Also, per Wikipedia re: Baghdad sacking: Timur invaded Baghdad in June 1401. After the capture of the city, 20,000 of its citizens were massacred. Timur ordered that every soldier should return with at least two severed human heads to show him. When they ran out of men to kill, many warriors killed prisoners captured earlier in the campaign, and when they ran out of prisoners to kill, many resorted to beheading their own wives.[70] The earlier Mongol siege/capture of Baghdad was in 1258.

    He also conquered northern India, all of the central Asia kingdoms, khanates, etc. and most of Anatolia (most of modern day Turkey). Some were Turkish people but many were not. He didn’t discriminate. Probably the vast majority were Muslim, outside of India.

    I believe he was the “Mongol leader” (not exactly) who had the practice of piling up heads/skulls in cities that didn’t surrender.

    Baghdad has been wiped out several times quite severely. The US invasion there was hardly a pin prick, though getting out of there seems harder than getting in.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  284. @Dieter Kief

    All of the great geniuses of the past in all of the arts, from music to painting to architecture and everything in between, were craftsmen first of all.
    Where that continues, there is a living culture.

    Where not, there is nothing but pretence.

  285. @nebulafox

    Most people are indifferent to logical consistency.

    May I add here that most people on earth are women?

    And I could go on with JWv Goethe from his Maxims and Reflectxions which I don’t have t hand right now but one of the lines in there goes (approximately) like this: Men make the rules and women the exceptions.

  286. @Muggles

    Among my favorite young adult books were Russian-German Michael Prawdin’s two almost-novels on the Mongols. The first was about Genghis, the second about his grandsons & Timur. While not a history, a rather gory & satisfying entertainment.

  287. TNC says:

    White Europeans were/are the decathletes of human civilization

    Perhaps we weren’t the best of the best in individual categories but we were so good at all of them we ran away with it

    Curiosity, intelligence, physical strength, capacity for violence, individual rights

  288. Corvinus says:

    “The unforgivable fact of 2020 is that white men have done most of the great things of the last 600 years.”

    The converse, of course, is the irrefutable point of 2020 that white men have done most of the horrific things of the last 600 years.

    “This deeply angers many resentful nonwhite people today that their ancestors didn’t accomplish much.”

    They assuredly accomplished much. Too bad it was wiped away by our people for gimme dats and free stuff.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  289. @res

    Again, what is interesting to me about the model is trying to understand the relative magnitudes of the different effects and relate that to reality.

    I think your model has obvious value in roughly estimating what to expect in scientific accomplishments from a population if it engages in science.

    There are a few things going on here.

    – – Any more?

    Creativity.

    I think most people here handicap the East Asians too much for their lack of creativity in science, but I admit there’s something to it. Using IQ as a guide, China has at least as many smart people as does Europe and the United States combined. So your framework would suggest we should see a burst of scientific development in China over the next few decades as more smart Chinese are plugged into a fully-formed system where scientific work is appreciated and rewarded.

    But I just don’t see China producing the same kind of quality scientific work that the West has managed to create. I might be wrong. And I emphasize that I respect the abilities of China and its people a great deal. Even without a burst of scientific creativity, the Chinese will still be productive beasts in the coming decades and worthy opponents in any endeavor they choose to compete in.

    But using your guide as a framework, we should expect much more than that. We should expect the Chinese to take over science and perhaps even produce a new Scientific Revolution. They have enough smart people in numbers to do that and will soon have enough wealth to fund expensive innovations.

    But I think they lack that creative-something that allows for the best scientists to make leaps of progress in often unexpected directions.

  290. nebulafox says:
    @Corvinus

    >The converse, of course, is the irrefutable point of 2020 that white men have done most of the horrific things of the last 600 years.

    Dude, you need to get out and see the world more.

    • Replies: @anon
  291. anon[216] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Dude, you need to get out and see the world more.

    Eh, that’s not what he’s being paid to do.

  292. Corvinus says:
    @peterike

    “Because Indians have major bad personality traits like deceitfulness, cheating, back-stabbing and so on.”

    But so do whites**, and the Chinese, and blacks, and Jews (don’t forget them)…but not indigenous peoples.

    **I have to give special mention to Italians. How can we forget John M. Parker? He helped to organize a lynch mob in 1891 to put 11 Italians in the ground. They were linked to the assassination of the police chief in New Orleans. Elected as governor of Louisiana in 1911, he correctly described Italians as “just a little worse than the Negro, being if anything filthier in their habits, lawless, and treacherous”.

    “This does not lend itself to application which typically requires some cooperation, something whites are exceptionally good at.”

    You know, I should have brought that up to my world history teacher way back in the day, given how our group during colonialism and imperialism worked so well together with native peoples in Africa and Asia (and the Middle East, too) for gimmedats and free stuff.

  293. @RichardTaylor

    There is a very simple proof to falsify what you advance : the darker and most southern part of India, and also the most mixed genetically with Dravidian races (pure blue violet Dravidians still exist here and there but have grown rare) is the most advanced intellectually and industrially, they are often level with South East Asia in terms of competences and discipline at work. It is the Northern part, which is more purely Aryan than White Europeans, there is the economic basket case. Even though their skin is somewhat darker than European’s due to natural selection under the torrid climate (though not darker than Southern Italy) they have mingled very little. As for the skeleton and the face profile they have purer and more refined lines than the British. But it is precisely where the Aryan race is the purer that medieval regressive mentality is thickest. Long, long ago India enjoyed a luxurious civilization, though not exactly in the same valleys as now, that was the civilization of Mohenjo Daro. Archeology is proving that they were thoroughly miscegenated between Dravidians and Aryans with all intermediate hues possible, though the language they spoke was already of the Sanskrit-Pali family. They experieded an invasion (though a very slow-motioned one) by pastoralists of purer white Aryans from the North and North West and that brilliant civilization regressed to nearly zero for eight centuries. It is true that climate change was at mork resulting in rivers being dried and ancient civilized plains turning into deserts but for eight centuries of absolute superiority and non-miscegenation these Aryans produced only enforced under-development, condemning industry as worthy of inferior peoples. The Enlightened Buddha did not favour caste and race misgenation, nor did he say that there were no superior Aryans. He rather said that you could destroy your race even faster than with miscegenation by yielding to pleasures and indulging in occult powers or too much cultural and intellectual activities not accompanied with work upon yourself, and that on the other hand lower and degenerate castes could regenerate through slow and laborious efforts.

  294. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @BenKenobi

    Why do people say that?

  295. anon[216] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    One thoroughly genocidal conquest usually means that civilization is gone for good. Look at the Maya or Inca or Aztec.

    Three geographically limited empires. The Caliphate reached from the Atlantic to the Caspian so it had a lot more resources. Yeah, Hulugu did a major number on Baghdad and Damascus. Ditto the 1401 attack. However that doesn’t justify poor electrical supply or improperly maintained sewers or an unreliable water supply in 2005. But that’s what guys heard in the sandbox. “Our city was a jewel until the Mongols!” like that matters.

    The Persians had entire cities destroyed by Genghis before Hulugu was born, but the Iranians do not whine about that in the current century. Nor do they blame failures now on invasion centuries ago.

    See the diff?

    Compare with the Russians. The Mongols smashed Kiev Rus in the 13th century and occupied it for about 200 years. Only Novgorod and Pskov were left alone. Yet beginning in the 1550’s Moscow pushed out invaders and recovered.

    See the diff?

  296. @Alden

    Many inaccuracies.

    1) most of the Roman Empire’s hardest work wasn’t done by slaves, but by legionaries. Even the Roman galleys were never rowed by slaves : the well-known scene in Beh Hur is based on no fact. They were rowed by soldiers ready to turn into warriors if ever a pirate ship showed up. They worked themselves to incredible danger so as to stay in good fighting shape, they put in an incredible amount of muscle and brain work for no pay. The Roman Empire fell just for lack of soldiers ready to impose themselves such tasks like building camps that would turn into cities after one year, roads, aqueducts. The worked as an incredibly fast pace and the secrets used why they were so efficient without resenting any amount of imposed felt as cruel remains undiscovered up to now : they possessed technologies the secrets of which are still lost maybe forever. You commit the same kind of error as the Marxists who ascribe past American prosperity to Negro slave over-exploitation. Slaves in the Roman Empire, though they could be subject to overwork sometimes, never contributed like legionaries and were generally considered as relatively spoiled brats like most Negroes still doing menial jobs.

    2) the water system of Rome was destroyed for lack of maintenance and military sabotage during the economic crisis of the 3th century, resulting in the formation of the Pontine marshes that no engineer succeeded in drying up thereafter upto … Mussolini. Once that marsh haf formed irrevocably, Rome became a malaria-infested city, resulting in the city being abandoned for Constantinople. The city never recovered. Actually the Germanic invaders that came only dreamt of restoring the city to its former glory but they lacked the necessary knowledge that had been lost by all. So they decided to move their capital from insalubrious Rome to Ravenna, which they built in quite an interesting style.

    3) the first Anglo-Saxons that showed up in Britain were taken for most trustful allies by what remained of the Roman power. They were found so beautiful physically and also so calm morally that they were qualified as near angels (angli = angeli). They were trusted by the last Roman and ecclesiastical administrators because the Welsh way of life had reverted to that of the druids and wherever occultists are in power all-out social regression is the name of the game. Anglo-Saxons were not very good builders but they were very good smiths and they built superior farm implements that allowed for a far greater productivity of soil.

    4) despite the buildings being much smaller in scale, the tradition of Roman baths remained unchanged during the European dark ages, with caldarium, tepidarium and frigidarium, and were to function until the 14 th century black death.

    • Replies: @Peter Lund
  297. Anonymous[118] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael Meo

    Matteo Ricci went to China, not India. He was in the Portuguese colony of Goa from late 1578 until early 1582 …

    Remind me: where is Goa again?

  298. @Francis Miville

    > They were found so beautiful physically and also so calm morally that they were qualified as near angels (angli = angeli).

    The “Anglo” in “Anglo-Saxon” comes from the peninsula named Anglia, where some of the invaders/settlers came from.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglia_(peninsula)

    The “angeli” thing is just some wordplay you stumbled upon.

    • Replies: @Malla
  299. @Old Palo Altan

    I think of you sometimes when I write, Old Man. What I still don’t get is the pattern behind your answers. – What makes them more interesting – and – – strange how these things work – encouraging. Heinrich Seuse – ingenommen weri in eins gedenk.

    (A question you posed in December or so still pops up in my head about the Reichenau in winter. And there is a photo I took there when you asked this question which I will post occasionally, – to answer it).

  300. sarz says:
    @nebulafox

    As a corrective to your views of Mughal India you might like to look at William Dalrymple’s books on the subject, particularly his latest, The Anarchy.

  301. sarz says:
    @Anonymous

    Anonymous[875] is a live specimen of the sort of whining, Hindutvuist Indian that is the real topic of much of the discussion here. All of the history of India is entirely in his head, cause it’s much easier that way. I particularly like

    …Brahmins were specifically targeted for genocide by Islamic invaders during their incursions.

    Examples? Who needs examples when this is so forcefully stuck in one’s head despite being divorced from any imaginable historical event? Sadly, Anonymous[875] is not alone. There are millions more like him who voted for Modi. That’s the guy who says there was plastic surgery in India, cause how else could you have had a god like Ganesh with the head of an elephant.

  302. Cs says:

    I hypothesize that it’s because high IQ Indians tend to be much stronger on verbal than on spatial reasoning. Ashkenazi are similar and have clearly excelled more in abstraction than application.

  303. CCG says:
    @Muggles

    This story is impossible. Tamerlane died in 1405. The Society of Jesus was founded in 1540.

    • Replies: @Muggles
  304. techvet says:
    @Libre

    Asian (dot) Indians in the US already outnumber the feather ones. This isn’t happening in any of the Hispanic countries. So very soon Indian in the US would tend to mean Asian Indian

    • Replies: @Clyde
  305. Any idea where the Romany were on the caste hierarchy before they left India? Why did they leave India and make their way to Europe? I’m surprised nobody has claimed that they brought calculus with them. I’m sure that constant travel in wagons makes on think of think of limits and infinity.

  306. Muggles says:
    @CCG

    This story is impossible. Tamerlane died in 1405. The Society of Jesus was founded in 1540.

    Either what I read was incorrect or it was simply a Vatican emissary (traveling priest). They had a lot of them going to Asia at the time.

    I doubt there was any independent verification, so maybe the Jesuits made up the connection or it was subsequently misidentified.

    A good story nonetheless.

  307. Clyde says:
    @techvet

    Asian (dot) Indians in the US already outnumber the feather ones. This isn’t happening in any of the Hispanic countries. So very soon Indian in the US would tend to mean Asian Indian

    The Dot Hindu population in America grows like the old blob movies. What does a yeast fermentation in a petri dish look like? Identical to the imported Hindus and their grifting swamis.

    • Agree: techvet
  308. Pheasant says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    ‘to attacks by Daniel O’Connell.’

    It was the other way around.

    Yidraeli was attacking him for being Irish. O’Connels ancestors were building megaliths that were used as calenders with mathematical precision rivalled only by modern computers before that shyster’s people even existed.

  309. Realtalk says:

    Maybe that’s why Lars Ulrich was so mad about Napster. People downloaded Metallica songs and suddenly he couldn’t drum anymore.

  310. Malla says:
    @Twodees Partain

    There is a research paper which claims that Zero went to India from China via South East Asia.

  311. Malla says:
    @Anonymous

    There’s lots of really impressive, imposing Islamic buildings in the North. And invariably when you dig underneath them, you find Hindu temples which were demolished.

    When you dig under many Hindu temples you get Buddhist shrines. Nalanda and Taxila universities were Buddhist not Hindus, Nalanda was staffed by Bengali Buddhists, the Pala Empire of Bengal was Buddhist. If you check out Ashoka’s stone carvings what is strange is there is not Sanskrit in any of his edicts. There is Prakrit (of which Pali is a dialect of), Greek and even Aramaic but no Sanskrit.
    Also it were the British officers of the EIC who did research to find out pre-Islamic history with Emperor Ashoka. Indians had forgotten about all this. It were even the British officers who eventually successfully deciphered the ancient Brahmi script. Today’s Devanagari script is only from the 100 AD period.

    • Replies: @Malla
  312. Malla says:
    @Peter Lund

    Pope Gregory the Great saw some fair-haired Anglo Saxon kids in Italy, and was told that they were Angles. ‘Not Angles but angels,’ he replied.
    Non Angli, sed angeli, si forent Christiani.– “They are not Angles, but angels, if they were Christian”.:117 Aphorism, summarizing words spoken by Gregory when he first encountered English boys in Italy, sparking his dispatch of St. Augustine of Canterbury to England to convert the English. He said: “Well named, for they have angelic faces and ought to be co-heirs with the angels in heaven.”

  313. Malla says:
    @Malla

    Today’s Devanagari script is only from the 100 AD period.

    Sorry, 1000 AD period.

  314. Malla says:
    @PiltdownMan

    These hippies were considered a bunch of buffoons by the locals. Many Indians were wondering how could THESE White people conquer us and rule us. This is so insulting. Hippies destroyed the image and status of the White man among darkies. Of course a lot of local cunning darkies must have made a killing, fooling and cheating these simpletons.
    On the other hand, the Indians may have found the colonials as disagreeable but they definitely respected the conservative colonial gentlemen lot. Or else there is no way a few hundred thousand Brits could have ruled hundreds of millions for 2 centuries. These leftard monkies have actually destroyed race relationships.
    These baffoons (or BLM or anti-fa monkeys) could not rule a village of Sikhs. The Sikhs would laugh on their faces and the pussyboy hippy/ leftard/ anti-fa would have run away crying and peeing and the Sikhs would roar with laughter. Nor could some Ghetto thug hoodrats have the smarts to run an Indian village let alone a Huge and extremely complicated Empire as British Raj.
    Leftard Eloi Whites do not understand that in the darky third world, respect matters far far more than love. Always have, always will. The Colonial gentlemen rulers knew this fact.

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