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A reader who knows a lot about the SAT and ACT tests writes:
The PSAT is going electronic this fall, followed by the SAT in Spring 2024. My hypothesis is that the recent Asian SAT gains in excess of IQ differences are due to increasing cheating on the paper tests, even among Asian-Americans. You seem to think it’s the post-Common-Core reduction of g-loading that makes the test more preppable. I think they’re still g-loaded enough to not explain all of the increasing gap.
Assuming it’s simple cheating and not a deep conspiracy within the College Board, the electronic testing will prevent students from memorizing shared sequential answers, as choices will be randomized, and no two students will necessarily take the same test. Further, “corrections” to test forms by compromised administrators will no longer be possible before they’re mailed in. Thus, I predict the Asian-white gap falls on the electronically-administered, computer-adaptive tests. White liberals might even start to see it as meritocratic again if it seems more fair to their kids.
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We do tests electronically, and it is only a matter of time until the answers have done the rounds. When the whole class gets +90% for what have been historically tough units, you know the jig’s up. (Especially when the school wave the results through.)
OT: In Texas, anti-abortion people are trying to make it a crime to drive people out of the state in order to get abortions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/09/01/texas-abortion-highways/
This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about “states rights.” If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of “states rights” is meaningless. It’s also in direct contravention to the right to interstate travel granted in the U.S. constitution. Maybe the theory is supposed to be that states have unlimited rights, including the right to erect East-Germany style border walls to prevent anyone born in their territory from leaving.
It also shows how pro-lifers’ minds have been completely melted by political correctness. A woman who gets an abortion is female, holy, and thus cannot be held responsible for her actions. But a man who drives her to the abortion clinic? Lock him up. Men do commit the large majority of crime, but if there’s a variety of crime that women are more likely to commit, we have to write the law in a way so that only the men can be punished for it.
"This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about “states rights.”
No, it doesn't. You're hysterical.
You don’t grasp state’s rights.
Some tiny west Texas county has a meeting where some local preacher makes some nutty proposal which is clearly illegal and intended only to gin up donations from his flock.
But without hyping up fantasy scenarios the Dems have nothing to say or do.
Pro abortion feminist groups could offer to pay for first class air tickets for any woman in a non abortion legal state to fly out and get one. But doing that would dry up sucker money. Also, abortion pills are readily available.
Personally I am pro choice but it is a state level issue.
Don't peddle Dem huckstering here.
Even if Asians were more prone to cheat. (I don’t see any evidence of this.) Why would they suddenly get more cheat-y? And why would this just happen to coincide with the redesign of the test?
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn’t gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you’d predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap — because they actually know Spearman’s Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/
https://lamag.com/featured/ucla-cheating
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-sat-two/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/10/30/an-account-of-exactly-how-students-cheated-on-sat-in-asia/Replies: @Hypnotoad666
Stopped reading your poast right there, thinking bout putting you on perma-ignore. Whadda knucklehead.
WTF?
Where you been? No evidence…good lord.
Try to catch up, this is from 2013;
https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/asian-immigrants-and-what-no-one-mentions-aloud/
More;
https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/tag/asian-cheating/
ER is a great primer, then you can google the rest. It is um…..illuminating to say the least.
No evidence…Jesus.Replies: @Twinkie
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna18426047
1. What caused the recent Asian SAT score increases?
2. What will be the impact of the new electronic tests?
I don't know about the impact of cheating (I suspect it is small in variance terms, but important to minimize to preserve integrity of the results), but I suspect we are mostly seeing two effects.
A. Decreased g-loading as discussed.
B. A. being more vulnerable to test prep adding an additional boost to Asian scores. Though seems like this should be relatively small variance accounted for as well.
What is interesting though is 2. I am a bit paranoid about electronic adaptive testing being used to tweak scoring in ways which are difficult to trace. It will be interesting to see how the gaps change on the new electronic tests. Also interesting will be to see if there is a stealth "recentering."
Regarding the changes, this seems like a good clue.
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/psat-nmsqt
The Asian advantage seems to be cramming and test prep while ordinary American kids are doing things like playing little league baseball.Replies: @Reg Cæsar
Isn’t it funny that there are so many HBD devotees who for whatever reason can’t seem to come to terms with NE Asians having greater cranial capacity, more grey matter, and more cortical neurons??
I have a relative who’s a Mensan and a Columbia grad who’s been teaching secondary school for 20 years who’d tell you that NE Asian kids are clearly the most natively intelligent of any group.
-DiscardReplies: @PeterIke, @Frau Katze
You're new here??
Not to mention that Jews have higher IQs than either group despite smaller brain sizes in Jews.
Tbat points to widespread Asian cheating which is well documented.LOL
...if you actually expected us to believe Columbia graduates with Mensa memberships become high school teachers.
Poor gentiles can't even tell old wives lies properly. That's why us Jews crush you all in everything.Replies: @mike99588
There are more Asian male tech hires than white male tech hires in Google.
Global meritocracy is the biggest enemy of the white race.
I can see why. White women are 10% of the population in places like Google but probably cause like 80% of the drama.
I wonder how much of the rage of white feminists is due to intersexual competition from Asian women. Given the choice of a white woman making 50K a year with loads of student loan debt and an Indian woman who's making 160K working at Google, who you gonna pick, white man? Not to mention the Indian woman is much less likely to have been brainwashed by feminism.
Call me a race traitor all you want, I don't think I owe any loyalty to people who show no loyalty to me.Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Anon, @Anon, @Alden
- White males are still the plurality of Google tech employees; to say nothing of the employees who actually matter (leadership)
- The vast majority (99%) of white people will never work at Google or any other big tech company, and do not want to. Most aren't competing with anyone but their fellow whites for jobs.
- White tech emplotees at Google would still appear to be over-represented relative to their median age, California residency, and SAT scores
- Google is just one shitty, shrinking tech company, let's see the graphs for other companies
Basically everything you post is just the inner machinations of a particularly loathesome and unconvoluted gentile brain. I dare say you are swine.
Are electronic tests really proof against cheating?
Electronic voting seems to be an invitation to industrial scale vote fraud rather than proof against retail scale vote fraud. Are tests so different?
Perhaps the scores will go down initially as individual/small group cheating hacks get obsoleted, but as penetration of the more complex electronic systems occurs, cheating will then become more organized, centralized, and deep (i.e., a smaller number of cheaters making bigger cheat gains). This is the universal law of automation: fewer headcount wielding more leverage and reaping disproportionate gains.
This is a graduate school photo of CalTech, the people who build rovers and helicopters that move and fly on Mars. Do they look like they are here by cheating?
https://scitechdaily.com/meet-the-scientists-and-engineers-behind-nasas-perseverance-mars-rover/
How come no East Asian chicks? They even got a Black chick. Maybe proof of no cheating by East Asians, if a bunch of dudes were cheating I bet they would figure out a way to get some chicks on board.
-Discard
One could look at the GRE, GMAT, and MCAT, which became computer-based quite some time ago. The GMAT and GRE became computer-adaptive as well. My sense is that there were no appreciable changes in ethnic gaps, including Asian-White; otherwise, we probably would have heard about them. If there were large changes in, say, the White-Hispanic gap following the adoption of computer-based testing, there would have been an uproar, and then we would have heard about other gaps, if any. Regarding the issue of cheating, I don’t know if Asian Americans are more likely to cheat than members of other groups; this phenomenon is probably most pronounced among Chinese and Korean nationals who have both the means–they are rich, spoiled kids–and the incentive–they are often sub-par students, having failed to make the grade on their respective countries’ crushingly meritocratic examinations–to cheat on the SAT. In a sense, they are the trans-Pacific analogue of the kids implicated in the ‘Varsity Blues’ scandal of a few years ago., with the added handicap that they aren’t native English speakers. Tens of thousands of Asian nationals apply to US colleges each year and ostensibly take the SAT, so their scores probably have an appreciable impact on SAT averages.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-testing-cheating-idUSTRE76Q19R20110727
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/
It is not difficult to game computer-based tests (GRE, SAT, etc.), and this is very common in Asian communities.Replies: @Pizzastand, @artichoke
There are many great American-born Chinese students. Smart, hard-working, worthy.
There is more cheating among the Chinese, but mostly among those from overseas who cheated on their English-proficiency and SAT admission tests because that’s normal in their country.
And when caught cheating here they claim that nobody told them it was wrong.
Some come to class in $1000 gowns, and some exit into $50,000 sports cars. From egalitarian Communist China. Other foreign students who pay full fees sometimes come from the looter classes of other suffering countries, e.g., Indonesia, Ukraine.
Complaints by faculty and graduate student instructors about incompetent and deceitful overseas students are silenced.
This is in addition to the decreased competence arising from the shift from merit admissions to plainly illegal diversity admissions. Complaints about this have been silenced. “There is nothing you can do. This comes from the top.”
I have precisely the opposite view of the many Chinese-American students I grew up with 40 plus years ago in an IBM town. They were among the smartest kids in the class, and hardest-working too.
A friend teaching English in China in recent years told me about the terrible academic outcomes she witnessed in schools preparing well-off students for universities and jobs here. China's intentions in sending mass numbers of students to flood our schools hardly involve merit or cross-cultural experiences or any of the other the mushy multiculturalist justifications that our universities and colleges use to cover-up their real reason for admitting Chinese nationals: foreign student tuition bonuses.
I know people who took the Project Management Institute test to get the professional certification. Some of them several times since it has a very high failure rate. Basically if you take it the first time and are confident you will pass because you always did well in school, you probably don’t know how tough it is and might well flunk.
They told me that, at least at the time, every three and a half hour test uses 200 questions or problems randomly selected from a database of 10,000 that have each been characterized on how tough they are. You are graded on 180 of them and 20 are new ones that are for future use and are being characterized based on how many people who get those questions, get them right.
No two people ever get the same test and the selection of questions for each test is made by the computer when you start it. Essentially the only ways to cheat would be to get a copy of the database of 10,000 questions and study them, or to hack the company’s computer system. If you can study that many questions, you earned the certificate anyway.
Ridiculously implausible.
1. This assumes that school admins believe they are smart enough to help, not hurt, the scores. How many 1500 SAT people go into high school education? It never happens. The 24 ACT vice principal knows he isn’t capable of reliably helping the super smart kid appear smarter.
2. You’re literally describing fraud, a felony in every single state. How many people who can pass a background check all of the sudden start committing fraud to help (of all people) high achieving, Tiger parented, personality-less, Asians. Maybe you might put a thumb on the scale for the charismatic-but-dumb QB so he can get an 800 on the SAT to go play at State, but not these robots.
3. How much fraud would have to exist to explain the score gap or any significant portion of it? You’re talking about thousands of HS admins independently committing fraud and not a single one of them getting caught. Incredibly unlikely.
It wasn't an isolated case, there was an organization dedicated to defrauding the universities, complete with coaches on payroll. Some criminal sentences were handed down.Replies: @Reg Cæsar
You aren't helping them out of the goodness of your heart, you are helping them because you are getting paid. Or perhaps because you want to make yourself look good by increasing the scores of your students.
"1. This assumes that school admins believe they are smart enough to help, not hurt, the scores. How many 1500 SAT people go into high school education? It never happens. The 24 ACT vice principal knows he isn’t capable of reliably helping the super smart kid appear smarter."
You aren't helping the super smart kids, you are helping the less (sometimes much less) than super smart kids. And you just have to know who the super smart kids actually are and copy their answers.Replies: @Truth
I would think they have audits; cross referencing; and multiple eyes to tamp down possible fixing. But choke points and weaknesses are found and exploited. Example: British Museum insider selling items in storage.
There is a documented case of widespread teacher cheating on a standardized test:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Public_Schools_cheating_scandal
OT:
So what is going to happen on Friday? Rumor has it that some nefarious group will launch a massive psyop revolving around some unspecified major event and/or shocking revelation.
Supposedly the whole point of this exercise is to track people’s responses. The entire population will be divided into three groups – those who express the “correct” viewpoint, those who express the “incorrect” viewpoint, and fence-sitters.
The anon who posted this on 4chan claims that the best way to respond is to say absolutely nothing – to express no opinion whatsoever – for at least six months. Avoid any and all engagement with anyone and everyone about this particular topic. Try to avoid reading articles or watching videos about the topic. If you watch a YouTube video that expresses a definite viewpoint, your viewing that video will be construed as your agreeing with that viewpoint.
Of course, it’s entirely possible that the real point of the exercise is to track the people who a) lurk around 4chan and b) have enough free time on their hands to write lengthy iSteve comments about random crap posted online. Presumably people like me will be scooped up in the middle of the night and taken away in black helicopters to some CIA hellhole where our fingernails will be forcibly removed.
(You heard it here first.)
I read an article once to the effect that Chinese-American prepping is facilitated by the fact that prep centers are neighborhood-close. If Chinese-Americans are increasing their edge over whites, maybe a co-factor is that prep centers are even more all-over-the-place than they used to be. Aside from that, maybe the Asian kids are more inclined to attend than they used to be; and white kids less inclined to attend.
In any case, while I respect the superbly template-style brain wiring, and the industriousness, of these Chinese-American kids, they are not going to grow up to be screenwriters or the like. Aside from occupations, and far more important, they will not excel at noticing and appreciating and relishing the nuances and ironies and connections and richness of everyday life. That said, I must add: Here in The OC they strike me as very decent, polite people who in many ways remind me of the America I grew up in and I am totally OK with them I don’t play golf with them but so what.
Who says the Han can't appreciate diversity? Spanish American Japanese English French toast, German-style, made in China:http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/~bgzimmer/englishfrench.jpg
Global meritocracy is the biggest enemy of the white race.
https://twitter.com/monitoringbias/status/1699054272929845509?t=0zgUV7RfvZ6YYNcqjiKCPQ&s=19Replies: @Anon, @Yet another physicists, @Meretricious, @Anonymous
“Google’s diversity report boasts “our best year yet for hiring women”, but none of this increase has gone to white women.”
I can see why. White women are 10% of the population in places like Google but probably cause like 80% of the drama.
I wonder how much of the rage of white feminists is due to intersexual competition from Asian women. Given the choice of a white woman making 50K a year with loads of student loan debt and an Indian woman who’s making 160K working at Google, who you gonna pick, white man? Not to mention the Indian woman is much less likely to have been brainwashed by feminism.
Call me a race traitor all you want, I don’t think I owe any loyalty to people who show no loyalty to me.
What makes you think any Indian woman would marry or be allowed by her family to marry a White American man?
You have a naive idea about what Google workers are paid. Only management makes 160K a year. And the Indians, especially the contract workers make a pitiful wage considering the cost of living in SV and SFReplies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox, @Jack D
They told me that, at least at the time, every three and a half hour test uses 200 questions or problems randomly selected from a database of 10,000 that have each been characterized on how tough they are. You are graded on 180 of them and 20 are new ones that are for future use and are being characterized based on how many people who get those questions, get them right.
No two people ever get the same test and the selection of questions for each test is made by the computer when you start it. Essentially the only ways to cheat would be to get a copy of the database of 10,000 questions and study them, or to hack the company’s computer system. If you can study that many questions, you earned the certificate anyway.Replies: @Anonymous
I took and passed the PMP. In a way it’s more difficult than the SAT because the subject matter of “project management” is completely subjective and made up by the Project Management Institute. It’s a bunch of jargon, neologisms, and real English words used in a completely different way. There’s no inherent logic to the concepts; it’s a completely arbitrary system of business and project management concepts made up by the institute. So you can’t really make common sense inferences or deductions to the right answer. Whereas on the SAT, if you know the vocab and math, and have solid logical skills, you can reason out the answers.
This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about "states rights." If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of "states rights" is meaningless. It's also in direct contravention to the right to interstate travel granted in the U.S. constitution. Maybe the theory is supposed to be that states have unlimited rights, including the right to erect East-Germany style border walls to prevent anyone born in their territory from leaving.
It also shows how pro-lifers' minds have been completely melted by political correctness. A woman who gets an abortion is female, holy, and thus cannot be held responsible for her actions. But a man who drives her to the abortion clinic? Lock him up. Men do commit the large majority of crime, but if there's a variety of crime that women are more likely to commit, we have to write the law in a way so that only the men can be punished for it.Replies: @puttheforkdown, @Joe Stalin, @Mike Tre, @Curle, @Ben tillman, @Muggles
Sounds good. “Waah, I can’t travel across state lines to kill babies!” Who cares, weirdo. Based Texas.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcBtosQgto/WChJ7TxYB_I/AAAAAAAAAjs/kUAq0G4aHOY_-h_I2Tk3oZQSvt09jCJJgCLcB/s1600/GreerGroupPic2015_1.JPG
https://scitechdaily.com/meet-the-scientists-and-engineers-behind-nasas-perseverance-mars-rover/Replies: @puttheforkdown, @George, @Truth, @Racksprode, @Redneck Farmer, @artichoke
Most of those people look like they should be in another country. A line up full of white fellas who look like William Shockley would figure it out just fine, thanks.
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn't gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you'd predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap -- because they actually know Spearman's Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?Replies: @Nathan, @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @ATate, @ex-banker, @res, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @anon
Indistrial-scale cheating in Asia and among Asians in America has been extensively reported on by even mainstream media:
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/
https://lamag.com/featured/ucla-cheating
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-sat-two/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/10/30/an-account-of-exactly-how-students-cheated-on-sat-in-asia/
There is more cheating among the Chinese, but mostly among those from overseas who cheated on their English-proficiency and SAT admission tests because that's normal in their country.
And when caught cheating here they claim that nobody told them it was wrong.
Some come to class in $1000 gowns, and some exit into $50,000 sports cars. From egalitarian Communist China. Other foreign students who pay full fees sometimes come from the looter classes of other suffering countries, e.g., Indonesia, Ukraine.
Complaints by faculty and graduate student instructors about incompetent and deceitful overseas students are silenced.
This is in addition to the decreased competence arising from the shift from merit admissions to plainly illegal diversity admissions. Complaints about this have been silenced. "There is nothing you can do. This comes from the top."Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Tina Trent
One of my kids is attending a college with an extremely high percentage of rich foreign students. Heard some interesting tales of getting stuck on a group project with a bunch of lazy rich kids who may or may not have cheated on their SATs. At least the professor could tell which student did all the work and was the only one prepared for the presentation.
The students I see doing this are from South Asia or from Arabic-speaking countries. (Though I did run into a Long Island white kid, rich town, trying to pull the same trick.)
This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about "states rights." If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of "states rights" is meaningless. It's also in direct contravention to the right to interstate travel granted in the U.S. constitution. Maybe the theory is supposed to be that states have unlimited rights, including the right to erect East-Germany style border walls to prevent anyone born in their territory from leaving.
It also shows how pro-lifers' minds have been completely melted by political correctness. A woman who gets an abortion is female, holy, and thus cannot be held responsible for her actions. But a man who drives her to the abortion clinic? Lock him up. Men do commit the large majority of crime, but if there's a variety of crime that women are more likely to commit, we have to write the law in a way so that only the men can be punished for it.Replies: @puttheforkdown, @Joe Stalin, @Mike Tre, @Curle, @Ben tillman, @Muggles
As it stands now, why would Lee allow Zhang to copy the answers off his sheet? Asians are very competitive amongst themselves and hate to see another Asian advance over themselves. One of the stronger arguments that Harvard, Yale, et. al. had in maintaining the status quo on their admissions polices was that the fortunate Asians admitted were more than happy to pull up the ladder on any other Asians trying to climb on board after them, and were quite content with the arrangement.
Steve’s job is safe for now!
Who says the Han can’t appreciate diversity? Spanish American Japanese English French toast, German-style, made in China:
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn't gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you'd predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap -- because they actually know Spearman's Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?Replies: @Nathan, @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @ATate, @ex-banker, @res, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @anon
“Even if Asians were more prone to cheat. (I don’t see any evidence of this.) ”
Stopped reading your poast right there, thinking bout putting you on perma-ignore. Whadda knucklehead.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcBtosQgto/WChJ7TxYB_I/AAAAAAAAAjs/kUAq0G4aHOY_-h_I2Tk3oZQSvt09jCJJgCLcB/s1600/GreerGroupPic2015_1.JPG
https://scitechdaily.com/meet-the-scientists-and-engineers-behind-nasas-perseverance-mars-rover/Replies: @puttheforkdown, @George, @Truth, @Racksprode, @Redneck Farmer, @artichoke
“Do they look like they are here by cheating?”
How come no East Asian chicks? They even got a Black chick. Maybe proof of no cheating by East Asians, if a bunch of dudes were cheating I bet they would figure out a way to get some chicks on board.
There was a notorious admissions fraud case a few years ago involving, amongst others, a ‘Housewives’ starlet as a mom paying six digits to get her daughters into USC.
It wasn’t an isolated case, there was an organization dedicated to defrauding the universities, complete with coaches on payroll. Some criminal sentences were handed down.
Simple fact is that they’ve got us by the balls. Show me an American research institution not deeply penetrated by foreign influence and I’ll show you a sex worker without recent exposure to an STD. Not being paranoid, just realistic.
Wouldn’t it be great to root for the home team again?
OT — I’m not terribly hopeful but both Antifa and McKinsey are being investigated for RICO charges (separately).
Global meritocracy is the biggest enemy of the white race.
https://twitter.com/monitoringbias/status/1699054272929845509?t=0zgUV7RfvZ6YYNcqjiKCPQ&s=19Replies: @Anon, @Yet another physicists, @Meretricious, @Anonymous
The problem is that Google hires drones. They aren’t hiring the next Woz.
GRE has been all electronic tests for 15+ years. Same Asian-white trends?
I have no doubt Asian Americans cheat more than whites. However, I am skeptical this is enough to have such a drastic effect on the A-W gap.
The Asian cheating I observed in college was overwhelmingly Asian migrants and foreign Asians, not US born Asians.
This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about "states rights." If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of "states rights" is meaningless. It's also in direct contravention to the right to interstate travel granted in the U.S. constitution. Maybe the theory is supposed to be that states have unlimited rights, including the right to erect East-Germany style border walls to prevent anyone born in their territory from leaving.
It also shows how pro-lifers' minds have been completely melted by political correctness. A woman who gets an abortion is female, holy, and thus cannot be held responsible for her actions. But a man who drives her to the abortion clinic? Lock him up. Men do commit the large majority of crime, but if there's a variety of crime that women are more likely to commit, we have to write the law in a way so that only the men can be punished for it.Replies: @puttheforkdown, @Joe Stalin, @Mike Tre, @Curle, @Ben tillman, @Muggles
This sockpuppet has exactly one comment.
“This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about “states rights.”
No, it doesn’t. You’re hysterical.
Global meritocracy is the biggest enemy of the white race.
https://twitter.com/monitoringbias/status/1699054272929845509?t=0zgUV7RfvZ6YYNcqjiKCPQ&s=19Replies: @Anon, @Yet another physicists, @Meretricious, @Anonymous
My guess is that Google will stop hiring Africans once it becomes pellucid that they bring no cognitive/creative ability to the table
If that’s your prediction too, then prepare to be disappointed.
Asian (that is, Chinese and Indian) overachievement is striking not only in Cupertino and Pasadena but in small flyover-country towns where the administrators (whom you’re suspecting of fraud) are all white or black.
i just assumed it was because the smart people in China and India are using America as an escape hatch. meanwhile, the domestic population gets a little less capable every couple years as the progressive leftist agenda garbles it’s way thru the public school curriculum. decreasing levels of instruction in readin’, writin’, and ‘rithmetic because they have to spend more time on becoming Gay Communists.
https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/math-disaster-in-college-would-be-stem-majors-can-t-add-1-2-1-3
I learned this in 7th grade. The answer is 2/5. ;-)
I will take the other side of that argument and say that the gap will grow.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcBtosQgto/WChJ7TxYB_I/AAAAAAAAAjs/kUAq0G4aHOY_-h_I2Tk3oZQSvt09jCJJgCLcB/s1600/GreerGroupPic2015_1.JPG
https://scitechdaily.com/meet-the-scientists-and-engineers-behind-nasas-perseverance-mars-rover/Replies: @puttheforkdown, @George, @Truth, @Racksprode, @Redneck Farmer, @artichoke
No one has ever flown anything on Mars, or been to Mars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenuity_(helicopter)Replies: @Truth
What if they looked like Jeremy Shockey?
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/
https://lamag.com/featured/ucla-cheating
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-sat-two/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/10/30/an-account-of-exactly-how-students-cheated-on-sat-in-asia/Replies: @Hypnotoad666
It is interesting the MSM was willing to say these were “Chinese” cheating rings without all kinds of “anti-racist” disclaimers, etc. But it does appear it was oversees Chinese and Koreans who were able to take advantage of the fact that: (a) the American SAT was administered at a later date in Asia so people there were able to steal (or photograph, or even memorize) the questions ahead of time and sell copies; or (b) they were foreign nationals who were allowed to take school tests online and they just paid an impersonator to take the test for them (helped, I suppose, because the schools don’t have records of every one of the 1.4 billion Chinese over there to see who’s real — Also, I would never say they all look similar but . . . you’ve seen one picture ID of a 5’5, 135 lb, Chinese kid with black hair and brown eyes, and you’ve kinda seen them all)
So I still don’t know if cheating is especially endemic with U.S. born Asian kids that come up through the US school system. But either way, the SAT people could stamp out this kind of cheating with just a little effort. (Make sure they give tests simultaneously, maybe take fingerprints for ID, etc.)
LA Mag
Reuters
WaPo
I can see why. White women are 10% of the population in places like Google but probably cause like 80% of the drama.
I wonder how much of the rage of white feminists is due to intersexual competition from Asian women. Given the choice of a white woman making 50K a year with loads of student loan debt and an Indian woman who's making 160K working at Google, who you gonna pick, white man? Not to mention the Indian woman is much less likely to have been brainwashed by feminism.
Call me a race traitor all you want, I don't think I owe any loyalty to people who show no loyalty to me.Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Anon, @Anon, @Alden
One silver lining of wokeness is that you can now publicly call out the (many) problems of women — the only caveat is that you have to be specific that you are referring to “white women.”
https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenuity_(helicopter)
Beautiful view of the Nevada desert.
Electronic tests can be rigged against whites just like electronic voting.
Be careful.
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn't gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you'd predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap -- because they actually know Spearman's Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?Replies: @Nathan, @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @ATate, @ex-banker, @res, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @anon
> Even if Asians were more prone to cheat. (I don’t see any evidence of this.)
WTF?
Where you been? No evidence…good lord.
Try to catch up, this is from 2013;
https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/asian-immigrants-and-what-no-one-mentions-aloud/
More;
https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/tag/asian-cheating/
ER is a great primer, then you can google the rest. It is um…..illuminating to say the least.
No evidence…Jesus.
As always, you ought to remember that the Oriental populations of the US are not randomly drawn from the general population of their home countries.. They were selected before they ever crossed the Pacific. China wants to establish an influential minority within our borders well as gain access to technology. Rice farmers don’t serve that purpose.
-Discard
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/alleged-chinese-spy-in-quebec-freed-on-bail-ahead-of-trial-1.6171422
OT: I can’t believe Steve hasn’t done a post on Netanyahu’s plan to boot all Eritrean “infiltrators” from Israel and build a wall, or Musk’s battle with the ADL in response to their extortion/boycott campaign against advertisers, or
The two stories converge as the ADL of course supports banning non-Jewish immigration to Israel but supports open borders for the US.
Talking of ‘Cheating’, this article shows the extraordinary stupidity of the ‘West’ in handing out a huge sector of the economy to China, without even being asked:
Giving the West’s Auto Industry to China
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/giving-the-west-s-auto-industry-to-china/ar-AA1giiBZ
Why should the Chinese ‘cheat’ when we are committing suicide with zeal?
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcBtosQgto/WChJ7TxYB_I/AAAAAAAAAjs/kUAq0G4aHOY_-h_I2Tk3oZQSvt09jCJJgCLcB/s1600/GreerGroupPic2015_1.JPG
https://scitechdaily.com/meet-the-scientists-and-engineers-behind-nasas-perseverance-mars-rover/Replies: @puttheforkdown, @George, @Truth, @Racksprode, @Redneck Farmer, @artichoke
Caltech is a tiny woke academic hothouse, unrepresentative of anything. They took Robert Millikan’s name off the buildings, for being a racist. They will carry on the pretence of excellence, as they sink into the slime.
-Discard
This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about "states rights." If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of "states rights" is meaningless. It's also in direct contravention to the right to interstate travel granted in the U.S. constitution. Maybe the theory is supposed to be that states have unlimited rights, including the right to erect East-Germany style border walls to prevent anyone born in their territory from leaving.
It also shows how pro-lifers' minds have been completely melted by political correctness. A woman who gets an abortion is female, holy, and thus cannot be held responsible for her actions. But a man who drives her to the abortion clinic? Lock him up. Men do commit the large majority of crime, but if there's a variety of crime that women are more likely to commit, we have to write the law in a way so that only the men can be punished for it.Replies: @puttheforkdown, @Joe Stalin, @Mike Tre, @Curle, @Ben tillman, @Muggles
“This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about “states rights.” If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of “states rights” is meaningless.”
You don’t grasp state’s rights.
“2. You’re literally describing fraud, a felony in every single state. How many people who can pass a background check all of the sudden start committing fraud to help (of all people) high achieving, Tiger parented, personality-less, Asians. Maybe you might put a thumb on the scale for the charismatic-but-dumb QB so he can get an 800 on the SAT to go play at State, but not these robots.”
You aren’t helping them out of the goodness of your heart, you are helping them because you are getting paid. Or perhaps because you want to make yourself look good by increasing the scores of your students.
“1. This assumes that school admins believe they are smart enough to help, not hurt, the scores. How many 1500 SAT people go into high school education? It never happens. The 24 ACT vice principal knows he isn’t capable of reliably helping the super smart kid appear smarter.”
You aren’t helping the super smart kids, you are helping the less (sometimes much less) than super smart kids. And you just have to know who the super smart kids actually are and copy their answers.
This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about "states rights." If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of "states rights" is meaningless. It's also in direct contravention to the right to interstate travel granted in the U.S. constitution. Maybe the theory is supposed to be that states have unlimited rights, including the right to erect East-Germany style border walls to prevent anyone born in their territory from leaving.
It also shows how pro-lifers' minds have been completely melted by political correctness. A woman who gets an abortion is female, holy, and thus cannot be held responsible for her actions. But a man who drives her to the abortion clinic? Lock him up. Men do commit the large majority of crime, but if there's a variety of crime that women are more likely to commit, we have to write the law in a way so that only the men can be punished for it.Replies: @puttheforkdown, @Joe Stalin, @Mike Tre, @Curle, @Ben tillman, @Muggles
No one claimed it was about states’ rights. The claim was that the Feds did not have authority to regulate it.
The actual question was whether the constitution requires abortion to be legal.
“…The claim was that the Feds did not have authority to regulate it.”
The actual question was whether the constitution requires abortion to be legal.
If the test is truly adaptive, then his prediction will should be correct.
But not because of Asian cheating–I don’t think that is huge in America (Korea and China are a different story)–but simply because an adaptive test that zeros in on and hammers away right around the level of difficulty where the student gets some and misses some should be somewhat less prone to test prep. And Asians test prep more and much more intensively on average.
The big Asian gain relative to whites (and everyone else) post-Coleman was not in the first year but the second year–2018. This just smells like “test prep”. The Asian prep schools having seen the test which is less g-loaded and more prepable simple got its number. Making test prep mania even more valuable scorewise. Some of that advantage would disappear with a truly adaptive test.
~~
Note for the Asians and autistic quibblers:
Nothing about the above comment means various Asian groups are not “smart”. Or on average smarter than white people. They are. And the Asian test gap will remain substantial.
As Twinkie has pointed out the long term rise in Asians scores is probably driven mostly by a change in Asian demographics to the children of more selected immigrants from China and particularly Indian. (Who often come as college or grad students on an F1 and then find a way to stay.) I think the test prep craze has something to do with the increase as well. I think the test prepping has gotten relatively more insane. But regular old selected immigration is probably the main driver.
But, it appears that much of the gains in rising Asian scores in the past few years seems to have come from the Vietnamese. And when I checked the education attainment data on Pew among various Asian groups in America, it does turn out that there is evidence for this - as a percentage, the Vietnamese have the greatest jump in education attainment between the foreign-born and the U.S.-born, indicating a substantial generational rise among them.
I think this is a much unexplored story. And, if true, it bodes very well for Vietnam and its future Flynn Effect-induced growth (there is evidence that both Japan and South Korea had IQ increases of 7.7 points per decade in the birth cohorts of 1950-70 and 1970-1990, respectively - imagine what it would do for Vietnam).Replies: @res, @AnotherDad
It looks like adaptive prepping is a thing.
https://aigac.org/adaptive-tests-versus-adaptive-prepping/
I think the way adaptive testing is being sold says a lot.
https://blog.prepscholar.com/sat-adaptive-testingThis was also interesting. Anyone have any experience/knowledge of how these drawbacks have (or not) played out with the GRE etc.?That page also has a description of the SAT adaptive approach. It is much simpler than I imagined.One difficulty with this approach is how do you equate students who do well/poorly and poorly/well on module 1/2? Depending on how that is done it may make sense to prep especially hard for module 1 (fewer questions so easier to prep?) OR tank module 1 to some degree on purpose.
Seems to me that might be more liable to gaming than the single test. As always, the devil is in the details.
P.S. Does anyone here trust that Current Year test administrators actually want an objective look at student ability irrespective of demographic characteristics?
So what is going to happen on Friday? Rumor has it that some nefarious group will launch a massive psyop revolving around some unspecified major event and/or shocking revelation.
Supposedly the whole point of this exercise is to track people's responses. The entire population will be divided into three groups - those who express the "correct" viewpoint, those who express the "incorrect" viewpoint, and fence-sitters.
The anon who posted this on 4chan claims that the best way to respond is to say absolutely nothing - to express no opinion whatsoever - for at least six months. Avoid any and all engagement with anyone and everyone about this particular topic. Try to avoid reading articles or watching videos about the topic. If you watch a YouTube video that expresses a definite viewpoint, your viewing that video will be construed as your agreeing with that viewpoint.
Of course, it's entirely possible that the real point of the exercise is to track the people who a) lurk around 4chan and b) have enough free time on their hands to write lengthy iSteve comments about random crap posted online. Presumably people like me will be scooped up in the middle of the night and taken away in black helicopters to some CIA hellhole where our fingernails will be forcibly removed.Replies: @AnotherDad, @Jenner Ickham Errican
The Sun will come up in the East.
(You heard it here first.)
I thought the idea of these tests was to keep the jig down?
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcBtosQgto/WChJ7TxYB_I/AAAAAAAAAjs/kUAq0G4aHOY_-h_I2Tk3oZQSvt09jCJJgCLcB/s1600/GreerGroupPic2015_1.JPG
https://scitechdaily.com/meet-the-scientists-and-engineers-behind-nasas-perseverance-mars-rover/Replies: @puttheforkdown, @George, @Truth, @Racksprode, @Redneck Farmer, @artichoke
Would breed all the females.
Sounds like copium.
For several years, computer-based test for GREs was stopped in Asian countries due to rampant cheating.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-testing-cheating-idUSTRE76Q19R20110727
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/
It is not difficult to game computer-based tests (GRE, SAT, etc.), and this is very common in Asian communities.
CB are not stupid. Therefore they are complicit. They know colleges love to admit full-pay foreign students who can somewhat plausibly claim to have great test scores.
So, 1619?
Then why now? Why such a sharp change?
No.
I think it was referring to administrators in the testing services themselves.
I would think they have audits; cross referencing; and multiple eyes to tamp down possible fixing. But choke points and weaknesses are found and exploited. Example: British Museum insider selling items in storage.
I can see why. White women are 10% of the population in places like Google but probably cause like 80% of the drama.
I wonder how much of the rage of white feminists is due to intersexual competition from Asian women. Given the choice of a white woman making 50K a year with loads of student loan debt and an Indian woman who's making 160K working at Google, who you gonna pick, white man? Not to mention the Indian woman is much less likely to have been brainwashed by feminism.
Call me a race traitor all you want, I don't think I owe any loyalty to people who show no loyalty to me.Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Anon, @Anon, @Alden
You haven’t been paying attention: Indian women are much worse than white women in this respect.
I suppose the results will stay the same because Asians possess a type of intelligence that goes well with SAT.
Other than that- these are either anthill or septic tank societies.
I can see why. White women are 10% of the population in places like Google but probably cause like 80% of the drama.
I wonder how much of the rage of white feminists is due to intersexual competition from Asian women. Given the choice of a white woman making 50K a year with loads of student loan debt and an Indian woman who's making 160K working at Google, who you gonna pick, white man? Not to mention the Indian woman is much less likely to have been brainwashed by feminism.
Call me a race traitor all you want, I don't think I owe any loyalty to people who show no loyalty to me.Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Anon, @Anon, @Alden
Virtually all of white women’s rage stems from Asian women, and to a lesser extent, Latina women. The rage has not so much to do with the fact that Asian women are smarter or better behaved. It boils down to this: Asian women are prettier than white women and get more attention from the opposite sex. For the same reason, white trans women hate Asian trans women.
entertainmenteducational purposes only, of course.> Isn’t it funny that there are so many HBD devotees who for whatever reason can’t seem to come to terms with NE Asians having greater cranial capacity, more grey matter, and more cortical neurons??
You’re new here??
They know enough to change a few bubbles on some kid’s test answer sheet to make it look more like the smartest kid’s test answer sheet.
There is a documented case of widespread teacher cheating on a standardized test:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Public_Schools_cheating_scandal
I still think that will be true – in the long term.
But, it appears that much of the gains in rising Asian scores in the past few years seems to have come from the Vietnamese. And when I checked the education attainment data on Pew among various Asian groups in America, it does turn out that there is evidence for this – as a percentage, the Vietnamese have the greatest jump in education attainment between the foreign-born and the U.S.-born, indicating a substantial generational rise among them.
I think this is a much unexplored story. And, if true, it bodes very well for Vietnam and its future Flynn Effect-induced growth (there is evidence that both Japan and South Korea had IQ increases of 7.7 points per decade in the birth cohorts of 1950-70 and 1970-1990, respectively – imagine what it would do for Vietnam).
But a general strong upswing in Vietnamese scores isn't too surprising. While the first wave out with the collapse of South Vietnam was fairly high-end, often people associated with the US occupation, it was followed by the "boat people" wave that included lots of "bad thinkers" fleeing their "re-education" or anti-Christian policies but also a much broader class strata including the peasantry. Now the Vietnamese taking the SAT would be mostly the children of refugee children who had a chance to grow up here or of later family-visa admits. These kids grew up in America, in an increasingly prosperous community, had plenty of food, full American schooling, and the whole Asian American culture package of educational expectations.Replies: @Twinkie
My own experience is that many Asian kids, inherently smart, also stay indoors and study like they mean it. Their parents make sure they work at their schoolwork like it matters. When I was a kid, we had a lot of Jewish kids like that. We’d all be playing stickball or hockey and many of them would be stuck in the house hitting the books. Not anymore for the Jewish kids, but those NE Asians aren’t giving up. Next generation will probably be flipping quarters behind the school, after they take over the country.
A lot of wind and p…
Has anyone ever factored into the scoring that neither white or Black kids give a s— about these tests? And, neither do the teachers, that is, the good teachers. The students who will be “successful” in college and in life will be the students who love learning and love knowledge. How do we instill that in a kid? By fostering conversation and engagement at home and by creating an environment for learning. Put magazines on the coffee table and a book shelf in the living room. Yep, it’s that simple.
SATs predict who will get good grades in college. High school grades are also a reliable predictor of who will get good grades in college. Daaa!
Maybe Asians do care about these tests at 17 or 18. That’s because they launch cognitively later than Americanized kids, that is, they begin to think critically and independently later. They believe into their early twenties that adults are the depositaries of wisdom. That’s Confucian and that influence wears off when they discover the debauchery of American hedonism; money, big house, nice car, trophy wife or husband.
The best evaluative test in business and in education, the best tool to predict performance and achievement, is the self-evaluation. It has been shown that most people undervalue themselves and underrate their performance. Those who don’t underestimate their performance have already demonstrated to their teachers or to the HR department that they are high achievers and productive performers. The number of scammers and liars on self-evaluations are small and easily culled.
I taught high school English for 33 years. I wrote hundreds of letters of recommendation. I can’t recall any kid who ever overrated themselves. By the time they’re seniors, they know where they belong. A few parents overestimate their kids but not many. 99% of parents, by the time their kids are sophomores, know their kids are not Princeton material. They realize that a state school is much cheaper and that they can use all that extra money they’ve saved on themselves.
Getting rid of the SAT will not make education less rigorous. It will make it more rigorous because knowledge and learning will be restored to its proper place at the top of the totem. The next step will be to put qualified teachers into the classroom who know the content they are teaching and who love what they’re teaching and let the parents love their children.
Non-sequential electronic tests will have little effect on cheating. Only having a greater pool of questions, from which a few are chosen randomly, might have an effect. For instance, if there’s a pool of 100 questions, from which 10 are randomly chosen for each student.
Also, having questions which differ in a very minor way (but have totally different answers) would detect cheating.
Now now now, don’t be silly my good man. Once they realize negroes bring nothing to the creative table, they will simply institute workshops that employ countless amounts of highly paid negroes to sit around and talk about WHY negroes bring no cognitive/creative ability to the table.
Global meritocracy is the biggest enemy of the white race.
https://twitter.com/monitoringbias/status/1699054272929845509?t=0zgUV7RfvZ6YYNcqjiKCPQ&s=19Replies: @Anon, @Yet another physicists, @Meretricious, @Anonymous
I’m curious as to how you came to this fucktarded conckusion based on those graphs, given the following truths:
– White males are still the plurality of Google tech employees; to say nothing of the employees who actually matter (leadership)
– The vast majority (99%) of white people will never work at Google or any other big tech company, and do not want to. Most aren’t competing with anyone but their fellow whites for jobs.
– White tech emplotees at Google would still appear to be over-represented relative to their median age, California residency, and SAT scores
– Google is just one shitty, shrinking tech company, let’s see the graphs for other companies
Basically everything you post is just the inner machinations of a particularly loathesome and unconvoluted gentile brain. I dare say you are swine.
No because as Steve said the Asian advantage is not actually proportionate to the increases cranial size or even IQ of Asians.
Not to mention that Jews have higher IQs than either group despite smaller brain sizes in Jews.
Tbat points to widespread Asian cheating which is well documented.
LOL
…if you actually expected us to believe Columbia graduates with Mensa memberships become high school teachers.
Poor gentiles can’t even tell old wives lies properly. That’s why us Jews crush you all in everything.
Actually some percent do.
First, Mensa isn't a particularly high hurdle - near or below the SAT median for the most selective colleges, when the SAT was still valid for entry.
Second, all those unemployable BA humanities majors without family money, military rank, or JD, PhDs...
Third, in post-industrial america even engineers were taking up STEM teaching jobs. One PhD ChE female that I knew 40 years ago, became upper management in the Fortune 50, in both UK and US, "retired", and teaches AP chemistry.
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn't gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you'd predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap -- because they actually know Spearman's Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?Replies: @Nathan, @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @ATate, @ex-banker, @res, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @anon
Thirty students at Duke’s business school were caught cheating back in 2007. The University did everything it could to cover it up, especially the fact that the cheaters were all international students, mostly Chinese. Don’t disrupt the flow of the 25% of the student body paying a 25% premium on tuition with zero financial aid!
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna18426047
I wonder if there is a statistical test that could be applied to test East Asians as a group or Chinese as a group for increased the amount of cheating. Did the improvement in East Asian / Chinese test scores occur evenly over the previous testing years?
If you divided the test scores into brackets, in earlier years what % East Asian / Chinese test scores fall into say the 1400-1450 bracket as opposed to 2023. This test would determine if the improvement in test scores was in the lower scores, middle scores or high scores. It is possible that a small number of cheaters who improve their middling test scores to full marks, 1600, they could shift the average test score up considerably. If obtaining scores by bracket is impossible, maybe just comparing the movement of the mean and the median test scores over time would reveal the same result.
On the other hand if there is a general improvement of all East Asian / Chinese test scores, I have to think that secretly organizing that across such a large number of test takers would be impossible. In this case, perhaps, test prep businesses with a mostly East Asian / Chinese clientele might have “hacked” the testing system and advantaged their customers. I think Steve Sailer claims Sen Schumer had a job at at test prep company (Kaplan?) that did indeed “hack” the system and used his position as an employee to obtain that information to score a 1600.
Ireland had such a law until recently. They tried to stop a teenager from going over to the UK for that purpose. It caused a bit of controversy. Apparently it’s okay for the Brits to kill Irishmen, as long as they do it on their own soil.
Today’s Irish, however, are doing more damage to their own country than any outsider ever did.
So what is going to happen on Friday? Rumor has it that some nefarious group will launch a massive psyop revolving around some unspecified major event and/or shocking revelation.
Supposedly the whole point of this exercise is to track people's responses. The entire population will be divided into three groups - those who express the "correct" viewpoint, those who express the "incorrect" viewpoint, and fence-sitters.
The anon who posted this on 4chan claims that the best way to respond is to say absolutely nothing - to express no opinion whatsoever - for at least six months. Avoid any and all engagement with anyone and everyone about this particular topic. Try to avoid reading articles or watching videos about the topic. If you watch a YouTube video that expresses a definite viewpoint, your viewing that video will be construed as your agreeing with that viewpoint.
Of course, it's entirely possible that the real point of the exercise is to track the people who a) lurk around 4chan and b) have enough free time on their hands to write lengthy iSteve comments about random crap posted online. Presumably people like me will be scooped up in the middle of the night and taken away in black helicopters to some CIA hellhole where our fingernails will be forcibly removed.Replies: @AnotherDad, @Jenner Ickham Errican
Rebecca Black assumes her horrific final form?
A whole thread about test prep and nobody mentions Chuck Schumer?
Why would anyone bring up that loathsome character on this subject?
It wasn't an isolated case, there was an organization dedicated to defrauding the universities, complete with coaches on payroll. Some criminal sentences were handed down.Replies: @Reg Cæsar
If you have a daughter applying to college, it’s been quite some time since you were a “starlet”. You’re well on your way to supernova.
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn't gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you'd predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap -- because they actually know Spearman's Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?Replies: @Nathan, @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @ATate, @ex-banker, @res, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @anon
Agreed about that (and the original comment acknowledged the issue, just thinks it insufficient). So we have multiple questions.
1. What caused the recent Asian SAT score increases?
2. What will be the impact of the new electronic tests?
I don’t know about the impact of cheating (I suspect it is small in variance terms, but important to minimize to preserve integrity of the results), but I suspect we are mostly seeing two effects.
A. Decreased g-loading as discussed.
B. A. being more vulnerable to test prep adding an additional boost to Asian scores. Though seems like this should be relatively small variance accounted for as well.
What is interesting though is 2. I am a bit paranoid about electronic adaptive testing being used to tweak scoring in ways which are difficult to trace. It will be interesting to see how the gaps change on the new electronic tests. Also interesting will be to see if there is a stealth “recentering.”
Regarding the changes, this seems like a good clue.
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/psat-nmsqt
Interesting hypothesis.
It looks like adaptive prepping is a thing.
https://aigac.org/adaptive-tests-versus-adaptive-prepping/
I think the way adaptive testing is being sold says a lot.
https://blog.prepscholar.com/sat-adaptive-testing
This was also interesting. Anyone have any experience/knowledge of how these drawbacks have (or not) played out with the GRE etc.?
That page also has a description of the SAT adaptive approach. It is much simpler than I imagined.
One difficulty with this approach is how do you equate students who do well/poorly and poorly/well on module 1/2? Depending on how that is done it may make sense to prep especially hard for module 1 (fewer questions so easier to prep?) OR tank module 1 to some degree on purpose.
Seems to me that might be more liable to gaming than the single test. As always, the devil is in the details.
P.S. Does anyone here trust that Current Year test administrators actually want an objective look at student ability irrespective of demographic characteristics?
But, it appears that much of the gains in rising Asian scores in the past few years seems to have come from the Vietnamese. And when I checked the education attainment data on Pew among various Asian groups in America, it does turn out that there is evidence for this - as a percentage, the Vietnamese have the greatest jump in education attainment between the foreign-born and the U.S.-born, indicating a substantial generational rise among them.
I think this is a much unexplored story. And, if true, it bodes very well for Vietnam and its future Flynn Effect-induced growth (there is evidence that both Japan and South Korea had IQ increases of 7.7 points per decade in the birth cohorts of 1950-70 and 1970-1990, respectively - imagine what it would do for Vietnam).Replies: @res, @AnotherDad
It seems rather late for that to be happening. It would be interesting to hear more about how you see the events driving the increases and the timing of those events. For all three groups.
This is further buttressed by the education attainment data in the U.S. about which I commented more than once: https://www.unz.com/isteve/dalliard-the-sat-and-racial-ethnic-differences-in-cognitive-ability/#comment-6103144Replies: @res
But, it appears that much of the gains in rising Asian scores in the past few years seems to have come from the Vietnamese. And when I checked the education attainment data on Pew among various Asian groups in America, it does turn out that there is evidence for this - as a percentage, the Vietnamese have the greatest jump in education attainment between the foreign-born and the U.S.-born, indicating a substantial generational rise among them.
I think this is a much unexplored story. And, if true, it bodes very well for Vietnam and its future Flynn Effect-induced growth (there is evidence that both Japan and South Korea had IQ increases of 7.7 points per decade in the birth cohorts of 1950-70 and 1970-1990, respectively - imagine what it would do for Vietnam).Replies: @res, @AnotherDad
The huge jumps over a few years–like we’ve seen after Coleman–have to have something to do with the test and/or test prep.
But a general strong upswing in Vietnamese scores isn’t too surprising. While the first wave out with the collapse of South Vietnam was fairly high-end, often people associated with the US occupation, it was followed by the “boat people” wave that included lots of “bad thinkers” fleeing their “re-education” or anti-Christian policies but also a much broader class strata including the peasantry. Now the Vietnamese taking the SAT would be mostly the children of refugee children who had a chance to grow up here or of later family-visa admits. These kids grew up in America, in an increasingly prosperous community, had plenty of food, full American schooling, and the whole Asian American culture package of educational expectations.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-testing-cheating-idUSTRE76Q19R20110727
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/
It is not difficult to game computer-based tests (GRE, SAT, etc.), and this is very common in Asian communities.Replies: @Pizzastand, @artichoke
This relates to the second part of my response, where I ask if Asian Americans–not Asian nationals residing inside or outside the US–are more prone to cheating. Since the record of the former goes further back, one could look at whether the scores for Asians (mostly Asian Americans two decades ago) changed meaningfully when computer-based testing was adopted. I don’t recall there being significant changes in the late 90s and early 2000s when CBT became the standard. Also, I think I implied, if not outright pointed out, that the College Board and other testing agencies don’t abstract out Asian nationals (non-citizens) from Asian Americans, which is unfortunate because the former group now seeks admission to US colleges in the tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands now: China alone sends 300,000 undergrad and graduate students to the US each year). That would be enough to impact average scores and alter the ethnic gaps. Again, the demographic of Asian nationals–often rich, spoiled, and underperforming, like their Varsity Blues counterparts–is distinct from American Asians.
I hope chinese evs who are all excellent quality with premium fantastic interiors and 1000 hp powerful motors with sports car handling make cars so cheap people will realise that german luxury is overpriced, the germans have been skating by because the MSM media fawns and praise euro cars every inch of the way, whites wont be impressed because whitey knows its all lies they will buy or mostly lease german and british cars no matter what, the target audience of all this fawning are people of color and right now its working, these effers have managed to make beautiful overbuilt works of art from LEXUS and INFINITI second tier to the disposable germs and british cars , because of the disposability nature of these germs and brits the resale value of their cars are just horrendous.
This puts lie to the claim many were making last year that Dobbs was about "states rights." If a state claims the right to prohibit conduct occurring in other states, the whole notion of "states rights" is meaningless. It's also in direct contravention to the right to interstate travel granted in the U.S. constitution. Maybe the theory is supposed to be that states have unlimited rights, including the right to erect East-Germany style border walls to prevent anyone born in their territory from leaving.
It also shows how pro-lifers' minds have been completely melted by political correctness. A woman who gets an abortion is female, holy, and thus cannot be held responsible for her actions. But a man who drives her to the abortion clinic? Lock him up. Men do commit the large majority of crime, but if there's a variety of crime that women are more likely to commit, we have to write the law in a way so that only the men can be punished for it.Replies: @puttheforkdown, @Joe Stalin, @Mike Tre, @Curle, @Ben tillman, @Muggles
Your entire post is based on an exaggerated fantasy pushed by NPR, the abortion lobby and the usual Comrade suspects. The Dem party now has to rely on spreading fear among young women who won’t get pregnant no matter what.
Some tiny west Texas county has a meeting where some local preacher makes some nutty proposal which is clearly illegal and intended only to gin up donations from his flock.
But without hyping up fantasy scenarios the Dems have nothing to say or do.
Pro abortion feminist groups could offer to pay for first class air tickets for any woman in a non abortion legal state to fly out and get one. But doing that would dry up sucker money. Also, abortion pills are readily available.
Personally I am pro choice but it is a state level issue.
Don’t peddle Dem huckstering here.
Don’t be coy.
Why would anyone bring up that loathsome character on this subject?
There is more cheating among the Chinese, but mostly among those from overseas who cheated on their English-proficiency and SAT admission tests because that's normal in their country.
And when caught cheating here they claim that nobody told them it was wrong.
Some come to class in $1000 gowns, and some exit into $50,000 sports cars. From egalitarian Communist China. Other foreign students who pay full fees sometimes come from the looter classes of other suffering countries, e.g., Indonesia, Ukraine.
Complaints by faculty and graduate student instructors about incompetent and deceitful overseas students are silenced.
This is in addition to the decreased competence arising from the shift from merit admissions to plainly illegal diversity admissions. Complaints about this have been silenced. "There is nothing you can do. This comes from the top."Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Tina Trent
I recall having heard it explained that the SAT tests have been administered in the PROC later in the year than in the U.S., so the trick is that the Chinese have ringers take the exam in the U.S. in order to acquire the questions, which can then be prepped for specifically by Chinese students taking the SAT for admissions to U.S. Universities.
It would not be surprising if this was done with the aid of the Chinese government – it would serve several goals of the Chinese government and supply the Chinese Princelings with something of value as well.
-DiscardReplies: @PeterIke, @Frau Katze
There are heaps of lower IQ Chinese in America, working on construction sites and, especially, in Chinese restaurants from sea to shining sea and every town with more than one horse in it. Most are illegal. Nobody cares.
-Discard.Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
Successful and enterprising or not, though, it is a problem if they are illegal. I do care. No one should be skirting around our laws or outright breaking them. As a practical matter, while there are many illegals there are probably just as many who have exploited loopholes, as they (and others) have been doing since the late 19th century. In fact, there was an infamous restaurant worker loophole that enabled thousands to come here after the Chinese exclusion act was passed in 1882. These days, there are likely more subtle means to circumvent the laws, but whatever they are, this reflects contempt for our laws and system. And that is a problem.
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn't gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you'd predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap -- because they actually know Spearman's Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?Replies: @Nathan, @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @ATate, @ex-banker, @res, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @anon
Asians are from “honor cultures” in which achievements including academic achievements are for the purpose of things like honoring the family name and ancestors etc. and “saving face” is of paramount importance in conflicts. Getting a substandard SAT score for a second generation Asian kid could mean many more bad things than it means to ordinary American kids.
IIRC, the SAT got serially “recentered” which adjusted the average score of 1,000 down to account for the fact that more non-traditional students (read: minorities and women) were taking the test. Later more subjectively-graded sections (essays) were added.
The Asian advantage seems to be cramming and test prep while ordinary American kids are doing things like playing little league baseball.
Do you have links to sources for this? For
entertainmenteducational purposes only, of course.The Asian advantage seems to be cramming and test prep while ordinary American kids are doing things like playing little league baseball.Replies: @Reg Cæsar
Shohei Ohtani is the underclass. No wars were ever won on the playing fields of Williamsport!
It’s true, but there’s also some selection effect going on in North America, I guess. Teach in Asia and you’ll meet more dumb Asian kids.
Good old Occams Razor says it was the changes to the test that boosted Asian scores. And since Asians presumably didn't gain 10 IQ points in four years, the Razor says the relevant test change was to reduce g-loading. This is exactly what you'd predict the SJW test manipulators would do as a (futile) attempt to reduce the black-white gap -- because they actually know Spearman's Hypothesis is correct.
Does anyone have any data about exactly what the test changes were?Replies: @Nathan, @Je Suis Omar Mateen, @ATate, @ex-banker, @res, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @anon
Chinese will cheat at anything and everything
You are mistaken. They are plenty of intelligent people who are risk averse and go into an education as a career.
Felicity Huffman was 41-49 during the airing of Desperate Housewives. I never thought she was attractive, even on SportsNight.
-DiscardReplies: @PeterIke, @Frau Katze
A few of them are also prepared to spy. We’ve had this problem with in Canada.
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/alleged-chinese-spy-in-quebec-freed-on-bail-ahead-of-trial-1.6171422
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenuity_(helicopter)Replies: @Truth
LMFAO!
Beautiful view of the Nevada desert.
What is “It” here?
So you already know about the Japanese and the Koreans, right? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886911001437
Now, let’s look at Vietnam and its diaspora in the U.S.: https://humanvarieties.org/2014/06/19/hvgiq-vietnam/
So I think two things are going on here. First, I think there is Flynn Effect in Vietnam itself, which I think is picking up steam. Second, I think the younger generations of Vietnamese born/raised in America are also starting to show substantial gain over their parents.
This is further buttressed by the education attainment data in the U.S. about which I commented more than once: https://www.unz.com/isteve/dalliard-the-sat-and-racial-ethnic-differences-in-cognitive-ability/#comment-6103144
Thank you for the comprehensive answer. I knew about the Japanese and Korean transitions (thanks to your past comments for the comparison and details), but I have only a vague sense of the timing causes (e.g. industrialization). I would be interesting in hearing more about that for all three countries.That makes sense. Would you consider that similar to Japan/ese and Korea/ns?Replies: @nebulafox
But a general strong upswing in Vietnamese scores isn't too surprising. While the first wave out with the collapse of South Vietnam was fairly high-end, often people associated with the US occupation, it was followed by the "boat people" wave that included lots of "bad thinkers" fleeing their "re-education" or anti-Christian policies but also a much broader class strata including the peasantry. Now the Vietnamese taking the SAT would be mostly the children of refugee children who had a chance to grow up here or of later family-visa admits. These kids grew up in America, in an increasingly prosperous community, had plenty of food, full American schooling, and the whole Asian American culture package of educational expectations.Replies: @Twinkie
We’ve been over this. The evidence on the utility of test prepping – say, on the SAT – has shown consistently that it’s mild – 20-30 point range.
“It just has to, has to be test prepping” sounds a lot like you trying to make your prior fit into the story here. Maybe it has to do with test prepping, maybe not, but there is no evidence presented to support it.
However, if it is indeed true that much of the Asian-American “gain” in scores in the recent years is coming from the Vietnamese (not known for prepping like the Chinese and the Koreans), then the “It must be the test prepping” must not be.
Agree with the rest of your comment on the Viets. Oddly, it seems not to be happening with the Filipinos. There appears to be a “downward” assimilation with the latter.
That said, I do agree with you about the hard limitations on how much test prep does for you, given the nature of standardized testing in the US. That's not what is going on. It is also worth pointing out that there is no equivalent to hagwons/juku/buxiban in Vietnam. But given the abnormal degree of disconnect with the old country during the initial decades in the US, I'm not sure how relevant that is.
> think this is a much unexplored story. And, if true, it bodes very well for Vietnam and its future Flynn Effect-induced growth (there is evidence that both Japan and South Korea had IQ increases of 7.7 points per decade in the birth cohorts of 1950-70 and 1970-1990, respectively – imagine what it would do for Vietnam).
If they can get the corruption-notorious even on the impressive standards of the region-under what we can call a "PRC-level" of control, then yeah, the future looks bright for them. I think Vietnam will get as far as it can economically without doing so pretty soon. There's a difference between corruption that lets things get done and one that squashes any attempt to get anything off the ground. The latter has raped countries with strengths that Vietnam can only dream of. Russia still pounds out a lot of great STEM talent, but projects like Skolkovo never got anywhere even back during better times because they sank into a quagmire. That's part of why Russian haigui aren't a thing, despite Putin's best efforts.
To their credit, the Vietnamese government has recognized the problem and is launching a Xi-inspired anti-corruption campaign. Previous incidents* have shown that the capability of punishing corruption is there. The question is the consistent willingness to do so as more than just a political or image tool. Xi's willingness to do this in China-unless it touches his friends, of course, but it is still very different from previous Chinese leaders who were pressing for wealth above everything-has a lot to do with his genuine ideological beliefs. So that's probably where they'll go, too.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/vietnams-solution-corrupt-bankers-firing-squads-n70716
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vietnam-security-idUSKCN1C40KW
(I personally think that this is on average harder to achieve in an authoritarian state, contrary to what some people here might think about a Caesar-figure squashing corruption. Most authoritarian leaders are not Lee Kuan Yew. The transparency and consequences necessary for a culture of public trust to naturally develop, while not impossible, has obvious obstacles in a system that needs to censor things to survive. That, and the incentives for the leaders of that state to use anti-corruption tactics purely as a way to punish rivals or dissenters are just too great.
But I can't say that with a straight face given what goes on in Babylon on the Patomac like I might have in a different time period. Legalizing corruption and treachery to your nation doesn't change what they are any more than putting flowers on your dog's excrement changes what that is. And because the puppets are senile, they are the only ones who don't seem to understand that social media means that blatant lies are going to be instantly detected. If your kid is a crackhead with financial conflicts of interest in a major war, people are going to find that out. And the mainstream media covering that up for you 1960s style is going to hurt both of you in the long-run, not help.)
This would be really easy to check with ETS data. Just look at the rates of questions not being answered by group and year before and after the change.
As was observed in the earlier thread--the two stage jump just for Asians really cries out for an explanation. I think "prepping" (including simple advice to be sure to answer every question) is a reasonable explanation. And have yet to hear an alternate explanation for the two stage jump which seems anywhere near as plausible.Replies: @Twinkie
Grinding works.
The more experience you have seeing the same type of question over and over will save you time and time buys you points.
Grinding when your already at the top end will probably only get 20-30 points. The effect of grinding is more prominent for midwits like me probably.
A significant number of Viet Nam immigrants to the US are ethnic Chinese, so not surprising they perform more like North East Asians. Filipinos are essentially Malays, not a group know for high g. If you meet a highly intelligent Filipino in the US they generally also turn out to have Chinese ancestry.Replies: @nebulafox, @Twinkie
I can see why. White women are 10% of the population in places like Google but probably cause like 80% of the drama.
I wonder how much of the rage of white feminists is due to intersexual competition from Asian women. Given the choice of a white woman making 50K a year with loads of student loan debt and an Indian woman who's making 160K working at Google, who you gonna pick, white man? Not to mention the Indian woman is much less likely to have been brainwashed by feminism.
Call me a race traitor all you want, I don't think I owe any loyalty to people who show no loyalty to me.Replies: @Hypnotoad666, @Anon, @Anon, @Alden
What makes you think any Indian women make 160k a year working at Google?
What makes you think any Indian woman would marry or be allowed by her family to marry a White American man?
You have a naive idea about what Google workers are paid. Only management makes 160K a year. And the Indians, especially the contract workers make a pitiful wage considering the cost of living in SV and SF
Among all Indian in America, fewer than 5% are married to whites, but among Indian women raised in the U.S. marrying other U.S. raised spouses, almost 40% are married to white men (note: the data is more than 10 years old).
I haven’t seen these low iq Chinese, but I’ll accept your word for it. It’s a big country and I’ve not seen it all. I suppose that China benefits from every one of their people in our country, as every one of them damages us.
-Discard.
What makes you think any Indian woman would marry or be allowed by her family to marry a White American man?
You have a naive idea about what Google workers are paid. Only management makes 160K a year. And the Indians, especially the contract workers make a pitiful wage considering the cost of living in SV and SFReplies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox, @Jack D
I don’t know what you mean by “management,” but low- to mid-tier IT project manager make about $150K-300K a year. Actual “management” – directors and up and the like – make $500K to sky’s the limit.
Indians in America have high endogamy (only the Vietnamese have higher among Asians), but they do intermarry some: https://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml
Among all Indian in America, fewer than 5% are married to whites, but among Indian women raised in the U.S. marrying other U.S. raised spouses, almost 40% are married to white men (note: the data is more than 10 years old).
-Discard.Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease
“China benefits from every one of their people in our country, as every one of them damages us.”
This. Not just every Chinese, but every Indian, every Pakistani, every Muslim, every new African, every Latino, irremediably damages the white people who are the true heirs of this country.
YKW knows this, it’s simple fluid dynamics; and that is precisely why they want a non-stop flood of immigrants so badly.
Everyone in the world has a sacred right to live in America, except for Americans.
I have been tutoring foreign grad students for a while. One pattern I see is that the wealthy grad student bought his way through undergrad. That is, he paid a “tutor” to do the work for him. (Presumably, good enough performance in homework will get one to pass the course in spite of incompetence on the exams.) Now that he is in grad school, he has to pass qualifiers and the like, and is stuck. Plus, thesis. The student is trying to do this with essentially no undergrad education.
The students I see doing this are from South Asia or from Arabic-speaking countries. (Though I did run into a Long Island white kid, rich town, trying to pull the same trick.)
I don’t have anything but anecdotal “evidence” to offer, with all the caveats that must be attached (I’m aware this is a major weakness of mine as a commentator here), but test prepping is more common for kids with a Vietnamese background now than it used to be. These are mostly the older third generation kids now, more often raised in school districts where test prep and related resume padding is a normal thing for most kids. And there were a lot of things that the FOB war generation from peasant backgrounds just did not know or could not do in a way that isn’t true for their kids.
That said, I do agree with you about the hard limitations on how much test prep does for you, given the nature of standardized testing in the US. That’s not what is going on. It is also worth pointing out that there is no equivalent to hagwons/juku/buxiban in Vietnam. But given the abnormal degree of disconnect with the old country during the initial decades in the US, I’m not sure how relevant that is.
> think this is a much unexplored story. And, if true, it bodes very well for Vietnam and its future Flynn Effect-induced growth (there is evidence that both Japan and South Korea had IQ increases of 7.7 points per decade in the birth cohorts of 1950-70 and 1970-1990, respectively – imagine what it would do for Vietnam).
If they can get the corruption-notorious even on the impressive standards of the region-under what we can call a “PRC-level” of control, then yeah, the future looks bright for them. I think Vietnam will get as far as it can economically without doing so pretty soon. There’s a difference between corruption that lets things get done and one that squashes any attempt to get anything off the ground. The latter has raped countries with strengths that Vietnam can only dream of. Russia still pounds out a lot of great STEM talent, but projects like Skolkovo never got anywhere even back during better times because they sank into a quagmire. That’s part of why Russian haigui aren’t a thing, despite Putin’s best efforts.
To their credit, the Vietnamese government has recognized the problem and is launching a Xi-inspired anti-corruption campaign. Previous incidents* have shown that the capability of punishing corruption is there. The question is the consistent willingness to do so as more than just a political or image tool. Xi’s willingness to do this in China-unless it touches his friends, of course, but it is still very different from previous Chinese leaders who were pressing for wealth above everything-has a lot to do with his genuine ideological beliefs. So that’s probably where they’ll go, too.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/vietnams-solution-corrupt-bankers-firing-squads-n70716
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vietnam-security-idUSKCN1C40KW
(I personally think that this is on average harder to achieve in an authoritarian state, contrary to what some people here might think about a Caesar-figure squashing corruption. Most authoritarian leaders are not Lee Kuan Yew. The transparency and consequences necessary for a culture of public trust to naturally develop, while not impossible, has obvious obstacles in a system that needs to censor things to survive. That, and the incentives for the leaders of that state to use anti-corruption tactics purely as a way to punish rivals or dissenters are just too great.
But I can’t say that with a straight face given what goes on in Babylon on the Patomac like I might have in a different time period. Legalizing corruption and treachery to your nation doesn’t change what they are any more than putting flowers on your dog’s excrement changes what that is. And because the puppets are senile, they are the only ones who don’t seem to understand that social media means that blatant lies are going to be instantly detected. If your kid is a crackhead with financial conflicts of interest in a major war, people are going to find that out. And the mainstream media covering that up for you 1960s style is going to hurt both of you in the long-run, not help.)
What makes you think any Indian woman would marry or be allowed by her family to marry a White American man?
You have a naive idea about what Google workers are paid. Only management makes 160K a year. And the Indians, especially the contract workers make a pitiful wage considering the cost of living in SV and SFReplies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox, @Jack D
>What makes you think any Indian women make 160k a year working at Google?
What? How can people who make PowerPoints, fleece pockets, do “market analysis”, and ruin other people’s lives for a living NOT be paid highly? Clearly you don’t understand their importance in the HR/MBA-dominated zeitgeist of the age. Creating stuff is a luxury that might not even be that desireable sometimes, but managing people-that is a necessity. /s.
>And the Indians, especially the contract workers make a pitiful wage considering the cost of living in SV and SF
Oh, come on. If you want pitiful, go talk to the illegals making your quesabirria before they head home to their 12-to-a-room house.
160K in the Bay or a few other select metro areas is not what it is in the rest of the US, but let’s not pretend you can’t live well on that, either, especially pre-wife and kids.
$160K is one millionth of the profit. Literally a drop in the bucket. Google has only 140,000 employees. On average, an employee produces more than a million dollar profit.
WTF?
Where you been? No evidence…good lord.
Try to catch up, this is from 2013;
https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/asian-immigrants-and-what-no-one-mentions-aloud/
More;
https://educationrealist.wordpress.com/tag/asian-cheating/
ER is a great primer, then you can google the rest. It is um…..illuminating to say the least.
No evidence…Jesus.Replies: @Twinkie
“Education Realist” made assertions about Asians in America in the past, from which she has retreated after being confronted with data here (and on Razib Khan’ blog). I don’t know what she’s like these days, but she used to have an axe to grind about Asians. She’d call me all sorts of names when I provided refutations for her claims, at which point she’d get slippery and claimed that she was just “asking questions,” not making statements of fact. This is all searchable here.
She also used to make other assertions – such as “Standardized tests under-predict black performance in real life” – that has been easily contradicted by data.
She also admitted – in a careless moment of glee – that she intentionally tried to make the lives of her Asian students difficult.
This is further buttressed by the education attainment data in the U.S. about which I commented more than once: https://www.unz.com/isteve/dalliard-the-sat-and-racial-ethnic-differences-in-cognitive-ability/#comment-6103144Replies: @res
“It” was what I would call the Vietnamese FLynn Effect transition (better stated by you as two things though, below). In particular the timing.
Thank you for the comprehensive answer. I knew about the Japanese and Korean transitions (thanks to your past comments for the comparison and details), but I have only a vague sense of the timing causes (e.g. industrialization). I would be interesting in hearing more about that for all three countries.
That makes sense. Would you consider that similar to Japan/ese and Korea/ns?
Worth (re)emphasizing that the change in question included a removal of the penalty for guessing. Something which is trivially preppable. This is not akin to the cases which have been studied.
This would be really easy to check with ETS data. Just look at the rates of questions not being answered by group and year before and after the change.
As was observed in the earlier thread–the two stage jump just for Asians really cries out for an explanation. I think “prepping” (including simple advice to be sure to answer every question) is a reasonable explanation. And have yet to hear an alternate explanation for the two stage jump which seems anywhere near as plausible.
Now the general trend line over several years is clear, and I think we have explanations with very good evidence such as rising selectivity of Asian immigrants, Flynn Effect in source countries, upward assimilation among some groups, etc.Replies: @artichoke
I won’t pretent to know what the latest evidence is exactly but anecdotally and on its face 20-30 seems wrong/too low.
Grinding works.
The more experience you have seeing the same type of question over and over will save you time and time buys you points.
Grinding when your already at the top end will probably only get 20-30 points. The effect of grinding is more prominent for midwits like me probably.
Would-be STEM majors can’t add 1/2 + 1/3.
https://www.joannejacobs.com/post/math-disaster-in-college-would-be-stem-majors-can-t-add-1-2-1-3
I learned this in 7th grade. The answer is 2/5. 😉
It also helps that Google had a gross profit of $160 Billion for the year ending June 2023. That is probably more than what the entire auto industry has earned in 100 years (may be add steel too).
$160K is one millionth of the profit. Literally a drop in the bucket. Google has only 140,000 employees. On average, an employee produces more than a million dollar profit.
Thank you for the comprehensive answer. I knew about the Japanese and Korean transitions (thanks to your past comments for the comparison and details), but I have only a vague sense of the timing causes (e.g. industrialization). I would be interesting in hearing more about that for all three countries.That makes sense. Would you consider that similar to Japan/ese and Korea/ns?Replies: @nebulafox
I’ll defer to Twinkie on the details of how IQ science works, but Japan industrialized back during the Meiji era. So if we’re looking at 20th Century IQ boosts, my hunch is that there is more to it than just being a developed country. IIRC, in occupied Korea, the northern part of the country was the part where the Japanese kept the industry, but whatever got developed would have been flattened beyond recognition by Iron Pants back in the early 1950s.
I’m guessing that one factor boils down to kids just not growing up in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, which Vietnam was as recently as the 1980s thanks to the stupidities of neo-Stalinism coupled with just how long the various wars in the region went on for. (I’d be curious to see what North Korean IQ levels turned out to be like.) Starving and being prey for diseases can’t be any better for your IQ than it is for your body. Replace that with modern level diets, health care, and education, and the right genetic substrate can bloom. Obviously, I don’t think that’s the whole story, but it probably isn’t nothing, either.
Tangent, but one of the lesser known facts about the colonial era was that late Qing China (along with several other legacy empires-the Ottomans got an earlier start than either China or Japan) attempted to modernize around the same time as Meiji Japan. For a variety of reasons-above all domestic political instability-they could never quite get it off the ground, though progress was beginning to be made during Nanjing decade. One of the odder legacies of the Japanese empire was the fact that Manchuria became China’s most heavily industrialized region in the 1930s. Steelworks like Angang group were originally Japanese shops. The twin punch of Soviet looting-as in Europe, they did not discriminate-and the nastier parts of the Chinese civil war hit the place hard after WWII, but it remained so after 1949. So it wouldn’t be true to say that China was wholly unindustrialized until the last 40 years.
It’s became China’s equivalent of the Rust Belt a couple decades ago. Populace is rapidly aging. Government is essentially trying to bribe young people into relocating to the northern provinces, but with limited success.
What makes you think any Indian woman would marry or be allowed by her family to marry a White American man?
You have a naive idea about what Google workers are paid. Only management makes 160K a year. And the Indians, especially the contract workers make a pitiful wage considering the cost of living in SV and SFReplies: @Twinkie, @nebulafox, @Jack D
No, you are the one with the naive or more likely outdated ideas.
https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-engineer
Entry level software engineers are now getting $185k/yr.
You also have outdated notions about Indians marrying white people. This is increasingly common.
Oh and plus, in case you were wondering.... yeah, she was smoking hot. Sorry Renard.Replies: @Jack D
Just because they’re working class doesn’t mean they’re low-IQ: coolie Chinese laborers brought over to Singapore by the British created modern Singapore, which became a first-world nation in one generation after achieving independence. And Chinese railroad workers left over from the Transcontinental RR ended up building shops, factories, restaurants, laundries, and farms–in fact they cleared hundreds of thousands of acres in California alone. Indeed, there wasn’t really the concept of ‘eating out’ at ethnic restaurants or getting your laundry done at some shop in the 1870s–they created that market.
Successful and enterprising or not, though, it is a problem if they are illegal. I do care. No one should be skirting around our laws or outright breaking them. As a practical matter, while there are many illegals there are probably just as many who have exploited loopholes, as they (and others) have been doing since the late 19th century. In fact, there was an infamous restaurant worker loophole that enabled thousands to come here after the Chinese exclusion act was passed in 1882. These days, there are likely more subtle means to circumvent the laws, but whatever they are, this reflects contempt for our laws and system. And that is a problem.
I read that the extent of the adaptive testing is that based on your early answers up to some fixed point, you get two possible sets of questions for the remainder, easy or hard.
Since the cheating we’re talking about is mainly in the “hard” category, and lots of students know they’ll qualify for “hard”, it’s just a matter of having a process on your cellphone that intercepts the test questions and copies them into a file. Easier to cheat than the paper tests!
You aren't helping them out of the goodness of your heart, you are helping them because you are getting paid. Or perhaps because you want to make yourself look good by increasing the scores of your students.
"1. This assumes that school admins believe they are smart enough to help, not hurt, the scores. How many 1500 SAT people go into high school education? It never happens. The 24 ACT vice principal knows he isn’t capable of reliably helping the super smart kid appear smarter."
You aren't helping the super smart kids, you are helping the less (sometimes much less) than super smart kids. And you just have to know who the super smart kids actually are and copy their answers.Replies: @Truth
You have to be smarter than someone to help them maximize their intellect? Was Phil Jackson a better basketball player than Michael Jordan?
OT:
China Is Flooding the World With Cars
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/06/business/china-car-exports.html
China’s automakers take the world by storm with electric vehicle push
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/07/cars/china-evs-global-intl-hnk/index.html
“You have to be smarter than someone to help them maximize their intellect? …”
Your questions should be addressed to the person I quoted.
Agree with the rest of your comment on the Viets. Oddly, it seems not to be happening with the Filipinos.
A significant number of Viet Nam immigrants to the US are ethnic Chinese, so not surprising they perform more like North East Asians. Filipinos are essentially Malays, not a group know for high g. If you meet a highly intelligent Filipino in the US they generally also turn out to have Chinese ancestry.
https://humanvarieties.org/2014/06/19/hvgiq-vietnam/
A significant number of Viet Nam immigrants to the US are ethnic Chinese, so not surprising they perform more like North East Asians. Filipinos are essentially Malays, not a group know for high g. If you meet a highly intelligent Filipino in the US they generally also turn out to have Chinese ancestry.Replies: @nebulafox, @Twinkie
That was only true for the initial pre-1978 wave, which was generally more affluent and urban.
A combination of a traditionally higher rate of intermarriage than in most other Southeast Asian countries and rigorous forced assimilation policies over the decades (one of the few things the North and South Vietnamese governments fully agreed on) meant that they usually identified as and spoke primarily Vietnamese by the 1970s anyhow. Not that this stopped others from viewing them as aliens, particularly when relations between the PRC and the VietComs soured.
I lost my virginity to a Brahmin chick. True, we were arguing about a peculiar rhetorical point, and she offered to f#ck me just to settle a bet and prove a point. But still, after all, she went ahead and made good. Go figure on that one.
Oh and plus, in case you were wondering…. yeah, she was smoking hot. Sorry Renard.
Not to mention that Jews have higher IQs than either group despite smaller brain sizes in Jews.
Tbat points to widespread Asian cheating which is well documented.LOL
...if you actually expected us to believe Columbia graduates with Mensa memberships become high school teachers.
Poor gentiles can't even tell old wives lies properly. That's why us Jews crush you all in everything.Replies: @mike99588
“…if you actually expected us to believe Columbia graduates with Mensa memberships become high school teachers.”
Actually some percent do.
First, Mensa isn’t a particularly high hurdle – near or below the SAT median for the most selective colleges, when the SAT was still valid for entry.
Second, all those unemployable BA humanities majors without family money, military rank, or JD, PhDs…
Third, in post-industrial america even engineers were taking up STEM teaching jobs. One PhD ChE female that I knew 40 years ago, became upper management in the Fortune 50, in both UK and US, “retired”, and teaches AP chemistry.
Oh and plus, in case you were wondering.... yeah, she was smoking hot. Sorry Renard.Replies: @Jack D
That doesn’t mean she will marry you. When my son was in college he had a “friend” who was an Indian chick who was richer than god – her father owned a steel mill or something. A “crazy rich Asians” kind of thing. They had fun together but there was never any thought of marriage.
Oh, I knew that, she knew that, we both did. There was never a question of marriage: for the record, I would never have married her, either. (FYI she was engaged at the time to a rich Jewish guy). Even if either of us had so desired, still nix: the class differences between us would have been impossible (her family was richer than Yoko Ono and I was a dish-washer), forget even the racial/ethnic hoo-hah. It was more like a zany out-take from The Philadelphia Story, except with f#cking onscreen. But it happened back when the presence of a few Subcons here and there were more like a decorative accent a clef, and not an intentionally anti-white imported overclass, as we see now.
“That doesn’t mean she will marry you.”
Oh, I knew that, she knew that, we both did. There was never a question of marriage: for the record, I would never have married her, either. (FYI she was engaged at the time to a rich Jewish guy). Even if either of us had so desired, still nix: the class differences between us would have been impossible (her family was richer than Yoko Ono and I was a dish-washer), forget even the racial/ethnic hoo-hah. It was more like a zany out-take from The Philadelphia Story, except with f#cking onscreen. But it happened back when the presence of a few Subcons here and there were more like a decorative accent a clef, and not an intentionally anti-white imported overclass, as we see now.
You think a college going woman wouldn’t be aware that Jews don’t like interfaith marriages as much as her culture? Even if she wanted, she might have figured converting to Judaism is a big PITA.
A significant number of Viet Nam immigrants to the US are ethnic Chinese, so not surprising they perform more like North East Asians. Filipinos are essentially Malays, not a group know for high g. If you meet a highly intelligent Filipino in the US they generally also turn out to have Chinese ancestry.Replies: @nebulafox, @Twinkie
That’s the general assumption, but the actual data doesn’t validate that. From the link I posted earlier:
https://humanvarieties.org/2014/06/19/hvgiq-vietnam/
Turns out that’s actually not correct. Please see my reply above.
This would be really easy to check with ETS data. Just look at the rates of questions not being answered by group and year before and after the change.
As was observed in the earlier thread--the two stage jump just for Asians really cries out for an explanation. I think "prepping" (including simple advice to be sure to answer every question) is a reasonable explanation. And have yet to hear an alternate explanation for the two stage jump which seems anywhere near as plausible.Replies: @Twinkie
It’s plausible, but there is little, if any, to validate the speculation. The argument here is “It just has to be – what else could it be?” And that’s not a very good argument.
It’s one year. There could be all kinds of statistical artifacts. If we don’t know, it’s generally better to say that we don’t know rather than falling back on our priors.
Now the general trend line over several years is clear, and I think we have explanations with very good evidence such as rising selectivity of Asian immigrants, Flynn Effect in source countries, upward assimilation among some groups, etc.
If you're willing to put in the time, you can prepare and help yourself quite a bit with this material. It's all free and they promote it so that everyone knows about it.
People pay test-prep services for access to old tests, or even access to fake tests (Kaplan) which are worse preparation and have ambiguous questions because they're not as carefully worked out at the "factory". Now with their multiple old tests provided free to everyone, and no others provided to anyone, you can do as well at home as what people pay for. If your parents can't answer your questions, then find your math or English teacher and get help after taking practice tests. Anyone can do this, if they have the will. Paying for test prep doesn't get you much these days that you can't get for free, which was explicitly CB's goal.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-testing-cheating-idUSTRE76Q19R20110727
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/
It is not difficult to game computer-based tests (GRE, SAT, etc.), and this is very common in Asian communities.Replies: @Pizzastand, @artichoke
College Board encourages this cheating. Why else would they release a version of the test first here in the US, then a few weeks later (enough time to come up with a list of questions and answers, and drill test takers overseas on them) use the same form overseas? It’s never the other way round where the form is used overseas first, then in the US. Also, the test is never simultaneous (as it is within the US, with a possible few hour difference due to time zones) or only a few days apart, which would frustrate the cheating that goes on repeatedly.
CB are not stupid. Therefore they are complicit. They know colleges love to admit full-pay foreign students who can somewhat plausibly claim to have great test scores.
Now the general trend line over several years is clear, and I think we have explanations with very good evidence such as rising selectivity of Asian immigrants, Flynn Effect in source countries, upward assimilation among some groups, etc.Replies: @artichoke
Prepping via common advice, like “answer every question, eliminate a few and guess among the rest” is not at all cheating. In fact College Board gives a good summary of that advice on their own website, along with past tests to practice on.
If you’re willing to put in the time, you can prepare and help yourself quite a bit with this material. It’s all free and they promote it so that everyone knows about it.
People pay test-prep services for access to old tests, or even access to fake tests (Kaplan) which are worse preparation and have ambiguous questions because they’re not as carefully worked out at the “factory”. Now with their multiple old tests provided free to everyone, and no others provided to anyone, you can do as well at home as what people pay for. If your parents can’t answer your questions, then find your math or English teacher and get help after taking practice tests. Anyone can do this, if they have the will. Paying for test prep doesn’t get you much these days that you can’t get for free, which was explicitly CB’s goal.
Has anyone ever factored into the scoring that neither white or Black kids give a s--- about these tests? And, neither do the teachers, that is, the good teachers. The students who will be "successful" in college and in life will be the students who love learning and love knowledge. How do we instill that in a kid? By fostering conversation and engagement at home and by creating an environment for learning. Put magazines on the coffee table and a book shelf in the living room. Yep, it's that simple.
SATs predict who will get good grades in college. High school grades are also a reliable predictor of who will get good grades in college. Daaa!
Maybe Asians do care about these tests at 17 or 18. That's because they launch cognitively later than Americanized kids, that is, they begin to think critically and independently later. They believe into their early twenties that adults are the depositaries of wisdom. That's Confucian and that influence wears off when they discover the debauchery of American hedonism; money, big house, nice car, trophy wife or husband.
The best evaluative test in business and in education, the best tool to predict performance and achievement, is the self-evaluation. It has been shown that most people undervalue themselves and underrate their performance. Those who don't underestimate their performance have already demonstrated to their teachers or to the HR department that they are high achievers and productive performers. The number of scammers and liars on self-evaluations are small and easily culled.
I taught high school English for 33 years. I wrote hundreds of letters of recommendation. I can't recall any kid who ever overrated themselves. By the time they're seniors, they know where they belong. A few parents overestimate their kids but not many. 99% of parents, by the time their kids are sophomores, know their kids are not Princeton material. They realize that a state school is much cheaper and that they can use all that extra money they've saved on themselves.
Getting rid of the SAT will not make education less rigorous. It will make it more rigorous because knowledge and learning will be restored to its proper place at the top of the totem. The next step will be to put qualified teachers into the classroom who know the content they are teaching and who love what they're teaching and let the parents love their children.Replies: @artichoke
You’re an English teacher. They no longer teach grammar in English class, a little fact they don’t tell Boomer parents about. Is that because you think it discourages independent thinking?
While the test might not show an important life skill, it does affect the student’s trajectory in the late teens and early 20’s and, to the extent this matters later, for the rest of their lives. Maybe the SAT is just a competition you’ve got to succeed in for your own sake. It’s not a reason to fool the students into thinking it doesn’t matter.
Let me say that I find your attitude irresponsible. I’ve seen your type before. You’re setting up success as something you can’t affect and can’t measure at the HS level. Therefore you’re not to blame if you don’t teach them English as effectively as possible, right? Your performance cannot be measured and you have no blame anyway and can just run a feel-good clinic, right? No wonder you have a long easy career in the schools. You went with the flow.
Thanks for the correction. That’s certainly not what I was expecting. Stereotype even today is that ethnic Chinese were all bourgeois city dwellers who got out of dodge as soon as they could after Saigon fell. It’s also interesting to get an insight about Vietnamese migration has changed since the boat people period.
It would fit in with how anti-Chinese sentiment reached its peak in Vietnam in 1979, after the conflict with the PRC.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcBtosQgto/WChJ7TxYB_I/AAAAAAAAAjs/kUAq0G4aHOY_-h_I2Tk3oZQSvt09jCJJgCLcB/s1600/GreerGroupPic2015_1.JPG
https://scitechdaily.com/meet-the-scientists-and-engineers-behind-nasas-perseverance-mars-rover/Replies: @puttheforkdown, @George, @Truth, @Racksprode, @Redneck Farmer, @artichoke
I don’t know. I don’t see any reason to suspect they cheated nor to be confident that they didn’t. After all, “pretty smart” shouldn’t be there at all. Are any of them just “pretty smart”?
There is more cheating among the Chinese, but mostly among those from overseas who cheated on their English-proficiency and SAT admission tests because that's normal in their country.
And when caught cheating here they claim that nobody told them it was wrong.
Some come to class in $1000 gowns, and some exit into $50,000 sports cars. From egalitarian Communist China. Other foreign students who pay full fees sometimes come from the looter classes of other suffering countries, e.g., Indonesia, Ukraine.
Complaints by faculty and graduate student instructors about incompetent and deceitful overseas students are silenced.
This is in addition to the decreased competence arising from the shift from merit admissions to plainly illegal diversity admissions. Complaints about this have been silenced. "There is nothing you can do. This comes from the top."Replies: @Paleo Liberal, @Alec Leamas (working from home), @Tina Trent
That was certainly my experience teaching composition at the very beginning of the wave that brought hundreds of thousands of limousine communist (CCP) Chinese nationals to take classroom seats from Americans of all races — whose families have built and supported our higher education institutions since the G.I. Bill.
I have precisely the opposite view of the many Chinese-American students I grew up with 40 plus years ago in an IBM town. They were among the smartest kids in the class, and hardest-working too.
A friend teaching English in China in recent years told me about the terrible academic outcomes she witnessed in schools preparing well-off students for universities and jobs here. China’s intentions in sending mass numbers of students to flood our schools hardly involve merit or cross-cultural experiences or any of the other the mushy multiculturalist justifications that our universities and colleges use to cover-up their real reason for admitting Chinese nationals: foreign student tuition bonuses.