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A New Theory About Which Sports Attract Lesbians and Which Don't
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Back during the media’s Meg Rapinoe Mania Month, we kicked around theories about why some women’s sports tend to have a lot of lesbians and others are straighter.

I was watching a video of an African-American lady Dalilah Muhammad set the world record today in the 400 meter women’s hurdles at the big US track championship in Des Moines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdfDJN4sPbI

Ms. Muhammad, like a lot of top women runners, is a pretty girl who puts effort into looking nice. She appears to have hauled two-feet of hair extensions around the track while setting her world’s record.

Among African-American lady runners, they tend to put a lot of effort into hair, nails (Flo-Jo), and/or jewelry (Gail Devers). This is quite different from more lesbian-dominated sports where trying to look pretty is actively discouraged.

Why?

One reason is because the biggest track meets, like the Olympics and this national championship, are coed. They also have a hurry-up-and-wait schedule conducive to flirting. So, track and field athletes frequently fall in love and sometimes marry each other. Most of the biggest US women track stars (e.g., Mary Decker-Slaney, Florence Griffith-Joyner, Jackie Joyner-Kersee, Marion Jones, Allyson Felix) married guys in track & field. (Evelyn Ashford married a basketball coach.

High achieving women naturally tend to have trouble finding a suitable husband because the number of men out on the far right edge of their bell curve is of course small.

Generally, heterosexual women who are great athletes are most attracted to male athletes (e.g., soccer star Mia Hamm married slugging shortstop Nomar Garciaparra), although Serena Williams’ husband is a tech billionaire.

High achieving women naturally tend to have trouble finding a suitable husband because the number of men out on the far right edge of their bell curve is of course small.

As an example of the upside of lady athlete’s high standards, Lorena Ochoa might be the top Mexican woman athlete of all time, displacing the formidable Annika Sorenstam as the world’s #1 woman golfer in 2007. But then she suddenly retired in 2010 at age 28.

Why? Because she had married in 2009 the CEO of AeroMexico, one of the top legit business executives in her country. Last I heard, they have several kids.

My favorite straight lady jock husband-hunting story is that of Lisa Leslie. She despaired of finding a husband because she is traditional lady who wanted a black Christian man with a respectable job who is taller than her. This doesn’t seem at all unreasonable for a woman to hope for … except she is 6’5″ and was perhaps the highest earning American woman basketball player of her generation.

But her friends were loyal because she is a nice person who deserves happiness, so they kept looking and eventually set her up on a date with a black UPS cargo plane pilot who is 6’7″. Last I heard they are living in the Las Virgenes school district with their two children.

Similarly, swimming and tennis have regular coed championships. I’m not that familiar with marriages within tennis, but legends Steffi Graf and Andre Agassiz are now married in retirement.

On the other hand, golf might seem a lot like tennis, but it doesn’t have coed major championships. The men and women pros typically get together once per year during the Silly Season, and individuals may do a few corporate outings together. So while women golfers are encouraged to look pleasant, their standards are quite different from women sprinters who approach big meets like it’s the prom.

I can only think of one marriage between pro golfers: Gardner and Judy Dickinson back in the 1970s.

And baseball and softball have zero overlap. Softball tends to be aggressively lesbian, although straight girls are allowed to signal they don’t want to be involved in all the lesbian softball romantic drama by wearing bows in their hair.

So, that’s my new theory: all else being equal, coed championships make a woman’s sport straighter. That’s not the only difference of course, but it’s not insignificant.

 
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  1. I think that is valid. At least where I was raised, high school basketball games were double headers – the girls played first. followed by the boys. Lots of girls basketball players were nearly as interested as the cheerleaders in looking good for and flirting withy the boys.

    Softball did not play double headers with baseball teams, so boys are not part of the action. And at least by the time I was just out of high school I assumed that a number of girls focused on softball were lesbian – my assumptions were based on my eyes and ears.

    High school tennis and golf teams usually played the same foe on the same day, like basketball. The golf and tennis girls were even more feminine than the basketball girls (my guess being that size explained most of that).

  2. Softball and basketball seem to have lots of lesbians.

    Track and field is pretty straight.

    Anybody know about volleyball?

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    If you mean beach volleyball, then yeah that's very straight. Look how they dress, and there's always a lot of men who watch their matches (both in person on the beach and on TV). If you mean indoor volleyball, well, can't help you there.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    Anybody know about volleyball?

     

    That's the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve's hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it's pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I'm not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn't.

    But then softball doesn't really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.
    , @Paul Jolliffe
    Competitive high school volleyball teams would seem to be disproportionately straight (and white.)
    My guess (based on my years as a "volley-dad") is that any starter on any pretty good team will likely have spent years playing travel volleyball.

    Travel volleyball is something to which ambitious suburban parents steer their athletic daughters, beginning at a fairly early age. (Though not as early as the serious tennis parents.)

    To the extent that "lesbianism" is environmentally determined, those suburban parents will likely have minimized (consciously or not) whatever environmental factors that may shape their daughters' sexual preferences for other women.

    Why?

    Because (again, whether those active suburban travel sport parents thought about it or not) they are generally shaping as many environmental factors in their daughters' lives as they can to get the most desirable outcome possible.

    In my view, softball and basketball are sports that tend to reward unusually high levels of testosterone, more so than volleyball.

    Involved (travel)Parents of daughters with unusually high testosterone levels may be more inclined to push their daughters towards the sports that tend to reward that.
  3. I think that lesbians are into fishing.

    • LOL: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And hunting, for the most part.
    , @Lockean Proviso
    Or clam digging- not sure if modern palates prefer the bearded variety anymore.
  4. but legends Steffi Graf and Alex Agassiz are now married in retirement.

    Andre Agassi

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Steve had this guy on his mind:


    http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/files/images/ppl/famamer/LAgassiz-young.jpg


    SJWs leave nobody alone:

    Time to change the mountain named after a racist
  5. Andre Agassiz, no? I think Alex is the son. A minor league baseball player.

  6. I think there is an arm and leg dichotomy. Leg sports are less lesbian.

    • Replies: @guest
    Could you possibly think basketball doesn't much involve legs?
    , @mmack
    That doesn’t explain soccer, which requires leg use for running back and forth on the field, and kicking the ball to pass it or score a goal.
  7. My theory is that sports that involve tools are going to attract more lesbians and sports that draw attention to the athlete attract more normal women.

    Take tennis and golf for instance. Although tennis is a “tool” sport, when tennis players are having a match you look at the player a lot while they move around, serve, etc. In golf, you watch the swing of the club and the trajectory of the ball. The golfer does not steal the show like a tennis player does, hence the popularity of tennis among straight women.

    If there were a women’s lumberjack (lumberjane?) Olympics I predict it would be nearly 100% lesbian, coed or not.

    • Replies: @Prosa123
    Yet there aren't too many lesbians among women golfers.
    , @psmith
    Judge for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWbeeYOhN7E

    (at least in the US, a big part of the pipeline to timbersports competition is through co-ed collegiate clubs at universities with big forestry schools, so that may be a confounding factor.).

  8. @Bill P
    My theory is that sports that involve tools are going to attract more lesbians and sports that draw attention to the athlete attract more normal women.

    Take tennis and golf for instance. Although tennis is a "tool" sport, when tennis players are having a match you look at the player a lot while they move around, serve, etc. In golf, you watch the swing of the club and the trajectory of the ball. The golfer does not steal the show like a tennis player does, hence the popularity of tennis among straight women.

    If there were a women's lumberjack (lumberjane?) Olympics I predict it would be nearly 100% lesbian, coed or not.

    Yet there aren’t too many lesbians among women golfers.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Both Nancy Lopez and the Korean women's dominance have seen to that.

    Of course, that's one thing Steve's never directly commented on, namely, the sexual orientation of the Korean women golfers in the LPGA. Are they mostly straight? Does any one outside of Korea know for certain?
    , @e
    I think you're wrong about that. I've been to enough women's golf tournaments from the 70s through 2010 to tell you that there's a strong contingent of them and the crowds that follow them.

    The old Dinah Shore Golf tournament in Rancho Mirage CA (renamed the Kraft-Nabisco sometime after Shore's death and now known as the ANA) is attended by hoards of lesbians (Yes, I chose "hoards" on purpose as they make their presence known so much that the attendance by straight men and women has been affected.) The event is essentially a lesbian holiday as they mark that date on their calendar, buy up the hotel rooms, and come from all over.

    Other than Nancy Lopez, who made the cover of major sports and non-sports magazine covers in her time, lady golfers don't make huge news so their sexual orientation stays out of print. Australian golfer Karrie Webb is an LPGA HOFer, a huge success in the United States, a lesbian, but one reading articles about her accomplishments back the day would never know.

    (BTW, I was surprised to learn that the marriage of Nancy Lopez and former MLB star Ray Knight, while it lasted a few decades, ended in divorce after all those years and kids together.)
  9. Tennis: Sergiy Stakhovsky (highest singles rank world no. 31) claimed in 2015 that about half of the women’s tour is gay. Reading the context, it may have been hyperbole. Hard to judge.

    There’s plenty of dating that goes on among the players. Serena and Dimitrov, Sharapova and Dimitrov, Monfils and Svitolina, Federer and Mirka (who was pro), Wawrinka and Vekic, Thiem and Mladenovic, Sock and Sloane Stephens. These are just the major players (at least one partner in top 10 at some point) during this century, and I’m sure I’ve missed a bunch.

    One of them once remarked, and I forget who, that it’s very easy to date other tennis players because you have practically no other option. The tour is brutal. Think about travelling around the world, maybe 2-3 weeks of vacation at home, nonstop for a decade or two. Those travelling with you become sort of family. The ATP and WTA don’t share all events, but there are plenty. The schedule in fact probably affords a serious professional athlete just enough time apart for training.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    It may have varied at different points in the past, but very few of the top women tennis players today are lesbians. Stakhvosky was probably mad about getting shot down. The men and women aren't in the same cities every week, but often enough that it could naturally lead to some paring up between them.
    , @Thea
    Hingis lamented that the top men all get to date their choice of younger models while the top women have a much smaller pool of desirable suitors.

    A pro tennis player man was her ideal first choice but the pretty model got him.

  10. Consider roller derby, which was coed in the Sixties when it was on TV:

    Why Is Roller Derby Important To So Many Queer Women?

    “The roller derby community provided me with queer community before I even realized that I was looking for it. I was partnered with a man when I began playing roller derby. Over time, as I began to understand my sexuality differently, I was always able to be open with my teammates. Talking with them about their journeys helped me understand myself better. Coming out as a lesbian was just not a big deal in derby ― my teammates celebrated with me ― so that gave me confidence to come out to others as well.”

    Not just in the United States.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    Roller Derby is also pretty much a fixed sport, or at least it comes off that way. It's vibe and action are somewhere between pro wrestling and a mobbed-up boxing tournament.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Aw, who knew? And Raquel Welch did "Kansas City Bomber" (1972), about a roller derby queen trying to balance life on the road and a desire for a personal life. And Raquel Welch is anything but lesbian.
    , @mmack
    Oh yes, my Mrs. and I found that out this year. The local roller derby squad plays their meets at the same sports complex our city’s amateur hockey team plays at. One evening this past winter we saw a hockey game the same night a roller derby match was being played in another part of the sports complex. After the hockey game we went to a nearby brewery not knowing it was hosting an after party for the roller derby gals. When the two teams showed up at the brewery it took lil old me, who isn’t always quick on the draw, all of five minutes to determine 98% of these girls are lesbians. Of course if the girls flirting, hugging, and kissing each other wasn’t a tip off, the big gal in the furry costume wearing a hat with QUEEN DYKE embroidered in sequins would have confirmed it. I truly felt bad for the one dude who was trying to pick up some of the cuter girls. It just wasn’t going to happen. Later in the evening some girls did ask me to join a conga line for the song Girls Just Want to Have Fun (they sent the shortest, most tattooed girl to ask me). I’ll admit, I joined the line. My wife did not, but had fun laughing at me.

    When we got back home I Binged the team webpage. Yeah, lots of rainbow and Pride emblems.
    , @Anonymousse
    I’d propose the theory that all sports favor certain body types as competitive and women’s basketball and softball just psychologically favor body types that men find particularly unappealing.

    A bunch of women that can’t get male attention traveling around together for years... and there you go.

    A partial test for this - is lesbianism less prevalent among sprinters than marathon runners? It’s pretty obvious that sprinters develop more attractive physiques, so they should be less lesbian if I’m on to anything
  11. With women: group vs solo sport? Lee6 might agree.

  12. Swimming is an interesting coed sport with regards to this question.

    The great female swimmers aren’t lesbians. Jenny Thompson married, Dara Torres married a couple of times (and converted to Judaism), Amy Van Dyken married former NFL punter Tom Rouen. Natalie Coughlin married her swim coach.

    It’s my impression that there are more homosexual male swimmers than other sports. ( Ian Thorpe, Mark Tewksbury, Daniel Kowalski.) Of course there’s diver Greg Louganis.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    Swimming is kind of a sport for nerds (Michael Phelps aside). A lot of the women look like lesbians even if they aren't. Plain in demeanor and appearance. Compare that to tennis or track & field, big difference. Even women's golf is more glammed up.
  13. I think you’re on to something here, Steve. There is definitely an argument for more code sports. Obviously you can’t have women competing with men but you could have mixed teams playing against each other. This would probably not work for very serious athletes, but your more casual recreational athletes who would otherwise just be watching TV might like it better that way.

  14. The sports where they shower together are lesbian. Shower separately, they’re straight.

    Can’t say whether it’s cause or effect.

  15. Martin and Gerina Piller are successful pro golfers still currently playing. Now retired, Laura Baugh and Bobby Cole were married twice and had seven children together during their respective tour careers.

  16. But is it cause or effect?

    Perhaps when the sports first started, they all tried some inter-mixed contests, but it didn’t work out too well in some sports (e.g. golf) because the man-hating dykes were grumpy, frumpy, and dumpy, and the dudes were not much for flirting with ugly women who gave them attitude. So the co-ed stuff was nixed in those sports.

    And basketball seems to have a fair amount of co-ed events/mixing type things in high school, yet its lesbians all the way down in the WNBA.

    I stand by my earlier interpretation: straight women prefer subjective sports (figure skating, gymnastics), where the contest is in the arbitrary hands of judges who need to be wooed psychologically. Lesbians, trying to ape men, seek out more objective sports, where winning means something observable and not subtle (e.g. scoring more runs in a baseball game).

    • Replies: @Jake
    As opposed to my time in high school, now girls high school basketball in many areas often is not paired with the boys team for scheduling. Plus, the girls now have their own non-high school team traveling teams, AAU, for the rest of the year. College women's basketball is not paired with the men's team at all.

    Steve's theory then would say that the WNBA would have a pool with many lesbians from which to choose.
    , @stillCARealist
    But so much of lesbianism is just man-hating. They're not really attracted to other females, they just feel more comfortable and natural with them.

    Look, aggressive is as aggressive does. If you're a big, pushy woman who's out to get her way, you'll get success in sports and business. But very few men will be interested in you. That makes you resentful (plus the fact that no matter how hard you try, you'll never be as good as the guys in sports) and increases your unattractiveness. So you go the "I don't care" route or call yourself a lesbian.
    , @Prosa123
    Golf and tennis are completely objective sports yet neither one attracts many lesbians on the pro level. Same for track and field.
  17. @Anon
    Softball and basketball seem to have lots of lesbians.

    Track and field is pretty straight.

    Anybody know about volleyball?

    If you mean beach volleyball, then yeah that’s very straight. Look how they dress, and there’s always a lot of men who watch their matches (both in person on the beach and on TV). If you mean indoor volleyball, well, can’t help you there.

  18. @Anon7
    Consider roller derby, which was coed in the Sixties when it was on TV:

    Why Is Roller Derby Important To So Many Queer Women?

    “The roller derby community provided me with queer community before I even realized that I was looking for it. I was partnered with a man when I began playing roller derby. Over time, as I began to understand my sexuality differently, I was always able to be open with my teammates. Talking with them about their journeys helped me understand myself better. Coming out as a lesbian was just not a big deal in derby ― my teammates celebrated with me ― so that gave me confidence to come out to others as well.”

     

    Not just in the United States.

    https://youtu.be/dP9Rv5gmPVE

    Roller Derby is also pretty much a fixed sport, or at least it comes off that way. It’s vibe and action are somewhere between pro wrestling and a mobbed-up boxing tournament.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    If Roller Derby wasn't fake the injuries would be "Rollerball" level nightly.
  19. @Daniel H
    I think that lesbians are into fishing.

    And hunting, for the most part.

    • Replies: @Prosa123
    An ever-increasing percentage of hunters are women and it's having an effect on the industry. For example, the enormous success of the 6.5 Creedmoor rifle cartridge is at least in part because it's a mild round that many women find easy to manage.
    Even so, I believe that most female hunters get their start by following their fathers or husbands. Not many are lesbians.
  20. @Anon
    Softball and basketball seem to have lots of lesbians.

    Track and field is pretty straight.

    Anybody know about volleyball?

    Anybody know about volleyball?

    That’s the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve’s hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it’s pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I’m not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn’t.

    But then softball doesn’t really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    Volleyball is where tall straight girls go in high school and college if they really want to play a sport in the winter but don't want to hang out with the lesbians in basketball and don't like running. Mostly I've seen tall whites and Asians, but sometimes a Michelle Obama-type black girl who likes boys will join in.

    Basically, they aren't going to get elbowed in the face driving to the basket and not get molested in the showers, so they like it more. Also, its similar to tennis in rules and play, a sport which also traditionally attracted straight females who wanted to compete -- before the Williams gorillas ruined it with their steroids.

    , @Redneck farmer
    "Maybe we need a flowchart".
    Thanks for triggering the women, bro!
    , @caffeine withdrawals

    According to Steve’s hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it’s pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players.
     
    High school boys volleyball is on-par with girls in some parts of the country, but I think its popularity is more of a state-by-state/region-by-region thing. On the west coast and in the midwest, it seems to be a big deal. Not so much in the south.

    In Southern California, at least, girls volleyball isn't dykey at all, but this could largely be due to crossover between indoor and beach volleyball.

    , @Anon
    In Japan national level volleyball is very popular, with no hint of lesbians, and its a big joke that middle aged men have the hots for female volleyball stars.

    Here's another idea: maybe the lesbian/girly break just happens by chance, Waddington's Epigenetic Valley style, winner take all, network effects style, the one to get a big lead first took over the culture.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Maybe we need a flowchart.
     
    https://mymonthlycycles.com/images/charts/imgs/mclassic.gif
    , @JimDandy
    No, Volleyball isn't that lesbian, primarily because it is a sport culture that allows heterosexual women to gratuitously show their asses off--and even provides girls with a full-on soft porn option if they branch off into beach volleyball. What healthy, straight young woman doesn't like teasing cock, amirite? The relatively feminine costumes of volleyball, tennis, gymnastics, running, and swimming all allow healthy young girls to show off a lot of flesh. Softball, golf, and basketball all favor more masculine attire, thus the preponderance of carpet munchers.
  21. @Prosa123
    Yet there aren't too many lesbians among women golfers.

    Both Nancy Lopez and the Korean women’s dominance have seen to that.

    Of course, that’s one thing Steve’s never directly commented on, namely, the sexual orientation of the Korean women golfers in the LPGA. Are they mostly straight? Does any one outside of Korea know for certain?

  22. Team sports are more conducive to lesbian behavior than individual sports. Swinging a big caveman club at a symbolic head (softball) is inherently dyke-ier than swatting a carpet beater at an annoying moth (tennis). Playing baseball with a big soft ball is a more masculine endeavor than sprinting, as hetero women are essentially hardwired to run fast until the fittest man catches them:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta

    That is all.

  23. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Anybody know about volleyball?

     

    That's the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve's hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it's pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I'm not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn't.

    But then softball doesn't really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

    Volleyball is where tall straight girls go in high school and college if they really want to play a sport in the winter but don’t want to hang out with the lesbians in basketball and don’t like running. Mostly I’ve seen tall whites and Asians, but sometimes a Michelle Obama-type black girl who likes boys will join in.

    Basically, they aren’t going to get elbowed in the face driving to the basket and not get molested in the showers, so they like it more. Also, its similar to tennis in rules and play, a sport which also traditionally attracted straight females who wanted to compete — before the Williams gorillas ruined it with their steroids.

    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
    "they aren’t going to get elbowed in the face driving to the basket "

    Made me think about the fact that volleyball is a non contact sport. Teams are separated by a inviolable DMZ, the net.

    At the same time, with the spikes at the net, it is about aggressive physical domination and humiliation of the opponent without physical contact. They attack at the weakest point. The ball becomes a weapon.

    Women's beach volleyball was the best venue ever to watch the female body in motion, clad only in sunglasses and bikinis, no distracting or concealing clothing, no air brushing, no pin up poses. Different body types, not cookie cutter clones, example the team of May and Walsh.

  24. @Anon7
    Consider roller derby, which was coed in the Sixties when it was on TV:

    Why Is Roller Derby Important To So Many Queer Women?

    “The roller derby community provided me with queer community before I even realized that I was looking for it. I was partnered with a man when I began playing roller derby. Over time, as I began to understand my sexuality differently, I was always able to be open with my teammates. Talking with them about their journeys helped me understand myself better. Coming out as a lesbian was just not a big deal in derby ― my teammates celebrated with me ― so that gave me confidence to come out to others as well.”

     

    Not just in the United States.

    https://youtu.be/dP9Rv5gmPVE

    Aw, who knew? And Raquel Welch did “Kansas City Bomber” (1972), about a roller derby queen trying to balance life on the road and a desire for a personal life. And Raquel Welch is anything but lesbian.

  25. I know Steve doesn’t like to post about mass shootings so as not to give shooters notoriety.

    But the mass shooting that occured today is on the frontpage of all the online news sites:

    Four people shot in front of Lawndale gas station a week after a shooting in the same location

    the group was gathered in front of a Shell gas station…when someone in an unknown vehicle opened fire

    A CPD officer was heard asking a gas station employee if bullet holes in a wall were from this weeks shooting or last.

  26. Maybe counter intuitive for some – but I personally have observed only heterosexual women involved in Brazilian jiu jitsu and amateur wrestling. Not judging from a giant sample but not a tiny one either.

    Correct me with your own contrary observations or please fit that into the theory somehow. Sexually normal women enjoying violent male dominated confrontational grappling seems like an interesting phenomena to me.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    Easy explanation: certain types of men (trashy ex military especially) really really like those grappling/wrestling sports, so straight women getting into it are trying to attract/impress those men.
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    There are plenty of out rug munchers in UFC and MMA in general.
    , @anon
    Every woman I have encountered in karate world has been heterosexual, and married to boot.
    Martial arts has a dance/ballet aspect to it. And after all straight women enjoy hitting men every now and then - who can blame them?
  27. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Anybody know about volleyball?

     

    That's the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve's hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it's pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I'm not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn't.

    But then softball doesn't really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

    “Maybe we need a flowchart”.
    Thanks for triggering the women, bro!

  28. Perhaps some kindly billionaire could fund a medium term study involving twins separated at birth and raised for orientation to different sports?

  29. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    There is also mixed doubles in tennis.

  30. I wrestled in college and I don’t think I could name one women’s wrestler who is a lesbian.

    Teams regularly practice together, not to mention have meets in the same place, and most women wrestlers end up with male wrestlers.

    Many are more attractive than you’d expect, especially if super-fit chicks are your thing (Christine Nordhagen, Clarissa Chun, Adeline Gray, Erica Wiebe…)

    This is a good theory.

  31. Woman are switch hitters. When they are around alpha males they are straight, locked up with all women they become lesbians. its the adapting to a harem, playing with the other wives all day or a family with a male, they can do either.

  32. OT: http://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/birth-registration-less-50-many-african-countries

    Seems that African births are likely to be much higher than officially estimated. This naturally has implications for the UN population projections.

  33. Anonymous[274] • Disclaimer says:

    Amanda Nunes, the UFC’s woman bamtamweight champion, is an open lesbian. She beat the shit out of Holly Holm and nearly killed her. She did the same to Ronda Rousey and Chris Cyborg. Straight women, even when they are physically very gifted, cannot compete with the Lesbian’s butch instincts. Lesbians, like straight men and unlike straight women and gay men, actually want to hurt their opponents during a fight. Straight women fighters in general just want to “compete”. Having that mentality does not do you much good in a sport where winning the competition involves causing as much physical injury to your competitor as quickly as possible.

    One of the biggest differences between men and women is not only physical, but the *mind* . Sure, men are much stronger, more explosive and durable. But perhaps the most important difference is in mindset. For instance, if you punch a woman or a little boy, the most likely reaction that you get from them is that they start to cry. Conversely, if you punch an adult man, the most likely reaction that you get from him is that he becomes enraged and wants to punch you back. It is primarily a difference in *mentality* . Men are much, much nastier in their desire to cause pain, injury and death to people they are mad at. This is why women will never make great soldiers. Even if you can make weapons and equipment so light that any woman can carry them, they just don’t have the mindset of burning people alive and shooting them in the head like angry men have. Men’s “will to kill” is much more pronounced. And this applies to most sports too to some degree or another, since sports are “make believe” warfare. Some like MMA and boxing much more than others like cayaking or golf, but the analogy holds.

    • Agree: Old Prude
    • Replies: @the one they call Desanex
    If we’re ever going to have a man vs. woman MMA fight, we’ve got a good chance for it right now: a superfight between men’s 125- and 135-lb. champ Henry Cejudo and women’s 135- and 145-lb. champ Amanda Nunes. They could meet in the middle at 135. Nunes is no Caster Semenya, but she seems like a very high-t gal, so she might have a real chance. Cejudo has expressed an interest in the fight.
    https://usatmmajunkie.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/henry-cejudo-amanda-nunes-tbc.jpg?w=640
  34. Anon[732] • Disclaimer says:

    Speaking as an Aussie who followed tennis in the another world of the pre-grunting/tantrum era…

    …I recall as a lad how I liked to watch the ladies playing as ladies, and the men’s as proudly blokey (sometimes even gentlemanly).
    I had crushes on both Evonne Goolagong and Chrissie Evert. Both ladies married British tennis players; and while Chrissie’s marriage to John Lloyd didn’t last (did she rebound from her romance with Jimmy Connors?), I see Evonne is still Mrs Cawley 44 years on…

    (I didn’t have a crush on Billie-Jean King, and I didn’t like Ilie Natase. Sorry if young iSteve readers don’t have a clue whom I’m speaking about, but I’m old…)

    Is tennis in a class of it’s own re: ‘propinquity’ of the sexes? Club houses are mixed, courts side-by-side, social tennis for young and old, the professionals of both sexes going from tournament to tournament on the same tours, and the mixed doubles must make tennis one of the few world sports where one man and one woman playing as a team can win an iconic world championship title as a couple.

    • Replies: @sb
    Once upon a time it was common for young people to meet their future spouse at the local tennis club
    ( I'm also talking about Australia here )
  35. So, that’s my new theory: all else being equal, coed championships make a woman’s sport straighter.

    Thanks for that ray of insight. Any thoughts on the brontosaurus?

  36. I can only hope medical science figures out the various causes of homosexuality and comes up with interventions (or at least in the womb identification) … and fast! (And yes, i’m aware the lesbian side seems much less clear cut–perhaps more environmental than the male side.)

    Back in the day when this was in the closet or at least didn’t have a flag, it just was what it was. But now these people insist on rubbing our faces in their abnormality and insisting everyone celebrate it!–celebrate my dysfunction!–every day.

    An end to this clown show can’t come soon enough.

    • Agree: MBlanc46
    • Replies: @Skyler_the_Weird
    I'd say it's more political than environmental. Women become lesbians to become part of political feminism.
  37. Supposedly the lady golfers hook up with their (and their opponents) male caddies quite often. Supposed to be quite the soap opera intrigue. Saw it on golf channel

  38. “And baseball and softball have zero overlap.” Baseball and softball aren’t even played on the same field. Softball, of course, doesn’t have a mound and baseball does …

  39. Interesting, and plausible. What about shooting sports?

  40. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Anybody know about volleyball?

     

    That's the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve's hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it's pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I'm not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn't.

    But then softball doesn't really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

    According to Steve’s hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it’s pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players.

    High school boys volleyball is on-par with girls in some parts of the country, but I think its popularity is more of a state-by-state/region-by-region thing. On the west coast and in the midwest, it seems to be a big deal. Not so much in the south.

    In Southern California, at least, girls volleyball isn’t dykey at all, but this could largely be due to crossover between indoor and beach volleyball.

  41. Could it be as simple as saying team sports tend to attract lesbos? Because, well, you’re around a bunch of other women all the time.

    Anyway, here’s this:

  42. @songbird
    I think there is an arm and leg dichotomy. Leg sports are less lesbian.

    Could you possibly think basketball doesn’t much involve legs?

    • Replies: @songbird
    It is not a question of the relative energy output of limbs, so much as whether or not it is a hand skill/aggression sport. Even beyond shooting, you need dribbling skills, or you will lose. Basketball is very much a hand sport, in that regard.
  43. Anon[284] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Anybody know about volleyball?

     

    That's the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve's hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it's pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I'm not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn't.

    But then softball doesn't really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

    In Japan national level volleyball is very popular, with no hint of lesbians, and its a big joke that middle aged men have the hots for female volleyball stars.

    Here’s another idea: maybe the lesbian/girly break just happens by chance, Waddington’s Epigenetic Valley style, winner take all, network effects style, the one to get a big lead first took over the culture.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    Thats what I was wondering too.
  44. @Patrick in SC

    but legends Steffi Graf and Alex Agassiz are now married in retirement.
     
    Andre Agassi

    Steve had this guy on his mind:

    SJWs leave nobody alone:

    Time to change the mountain named after a racist

    • Replies: @BB753
    The horror :

    "every single institution has rejected our demand to rename the Agassiz peak, situated northwest of the Finsteraarhorn in Rentyhorn, and to instead dedicate it to the Congolese slave who Agassiz photographed in South Carolina in order to “scientifically” prove the inferiority of blacks. "

    Some busybodies have too much time on their hands!
    , @guest
    Ya know, I was on the fence until they reminded me of denazification. Because I totally forgot about "but muh nazees."
  45. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Anybody know about volleyball?

     

    That's the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve's hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it's pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I'm not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn't.

    But then softball doesn't really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

  46. All sports attract homosexuals of either sex, closeted or otherwise. Obsessive athleticism in young adulthood is a red flag of homosexual tendencies.
    98% of women are closeted bisexuals.

    https://www.psypost.org/2018/02/brain-scan-study-bisexual-heterosexual-women-equally-aroused-male-female-50707

    • Replies: @Jake
    Most people today have gotten the long ago media fascination with the 'Down Low' topic.

    Down Low was a phrase that marked black men who outwardly posed as straight, most of them married for much of their adult life, but who were very active in gay sex. The world of black athletes was filled with men that many talked about as on the Down Low.
  47. Wouldn’t it more accurate to say that coed sports tend to attract straight women, while all-female sports attract surly lesbians wanting to get some girl on girl action?

  48. @Reg Cæsar
    Steve had this guy on his mind:


    http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/files/images/ppl/famamer/LAgassiz-young.jpg


    SJWs leave nobody alone:

    Time to change the mountain named after a racist

    The horror :

    “every single institution has rejected our demand to rename the Agassiz peak, situated northwest of the Finsteraarhorn in Rentyhorn, and to instead dedicate it to the Congolese slave who Agassiz photographed in South Carolina in order to “scientifically” prove the inferiority of blacks. ”

    Some busybodies have too much time on their hands!

    • Replies: @guest
    What does some Congolian have to do with an Alpine mountain?
  49. “Softball tends to be aggressively lesbian, although straight girls are allowed to signal they don’t want to be involved in all the lesbian softball romantic drama by wearing bows in their hair.”

    I”m still waiting for Steve to qualify this statement. I have two daughters that have played a combination of 12 years in softball. They’ve done inhouse, travel, middle school, and high school ball and I haven’t seen any evidence that more softball players are lesbian. The organization my younger daughter is with recruits the local NAIA university’s softball team players to coach and provide lessons, and all but one are hair-to-the-butt, yoga pants wearing cuties.

    I would say that most of the grown women coaching softball are lesbians, but almost all of those women are 6-12th grade teachers. In fact the biggest concentration of lesbians I have observed is in the teaching profession.

    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law’s 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL’s circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer’s convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    It's been pointed out that lesbians tend to be high testosterone women - the stereotypical butch, but I think that some are simply women who can't get a man. Do you think that your sister-in-law's friends are just very unattractive women who couldn't snag a guy? Women tend to be more, ahem, flexible in this regard. Perhaps they find Black men unappealing.
    , @Paleo Liberal
    The woman who runs one of the local softball organizations is a lesbian.

    As for the high school age players: they tended to be straight. Often they dated baseball players or other male athletes.

    I gather there are a few college teams where the lesbians bullied the straight girls into leaving the team.

    I have heard rumors about the bows, but I have never seen it or heard of anyone with a kid whose team used bows. Some lesbians claimed that the bows were a way for the straight girls to bully the lesbians. I have no idea.

    By the college level, there are more young ladies by far playing co-ed slow pitch than playing fast pitch. The men on the teams were sometimes former baseball players. I knew one couple that met in college playing on the same co-ed softball team. Their daughter had a tremendous amount of talent in softball, but about zero interest in the game.
    , @e
    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law’s 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL’s circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer’s convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    Well, that's true of most straight men (and women) too, who as adults are really just sports' spectators, not athletically gifted themselves. In fact many of the most rabid football and baseball fans I know are men who didn't even play on a team of any kind in high school..

    , @Ghost of Bull Moose
    "...with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer’s convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. ."

    This is true. Every fat lesbian I've ever worked with has had severe and chronic bullshititis of every variety and a never ending series of obscure and invisible ailments.
    , @ScarletNumber

    obesity anonymous meeting
     
    This made me laugh.
  50. @AnotherDad
    I can only hope medical science figures out the various causes of homosexuality and comes up with interventions (or at least in the womb identification) ... and fast! (And yes, i'm aware the lesbian side seems much less clear cut--perhaps more environmental than the male side.)

    Back in the day when this was in the closet or at least didn't have a flag, it just was what it was. But now these people insist on rubbing our faces in their abnormality and insisting everyone celebrate it!--celebrate my dysfunction!--every day.

    An end to this clown show can't come soon enough.

    I’d say it’s more political than environmental. Women become lesbians to become part of political feminism.

  51. @BB753
    The horror :

    "every single institution has rejected our demand to rename the Agassiz peak, situated northwest of the Finsteraarhorn in Rentyhorn, and to instead dedicate it to the Congolese slave who Agassiz photographed in South Carolina in order to “scientifically” prove the inferiority of blacks. "

    Some busybodies have too much time on their hands!

    What does some Congolian have to do with an Alpine mountain?

    • Replies: @bomag

    What does some Congolian have to do with an Alpine mountain?
     
    Not much, which is probably the point.

    They're building a future that involves a lot more Congolese.
  52. @Reg Cæsar
    Steve had this guy on his mind:


    http://www.educationalsynthesis.org/files/images/ppl/famamer/LAgassiz-young.jpg


    SJWs leave nobody alone:

    Time to change the mountain named after a racist

    Ya know, I was on the fence until they reminded me of denazification. Because I totally forgot about “but muh nazees.”

  53. @songbird
    I think there is an arm and leg dichotomy. Leg sports are less lesbian.

    That doesn’t explain soccer, which requires leg use for running back and forth on the field, and kicking the ball to pass it or score a goal.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I guess my theory is really in its primitive stages - mainly based on old discussions from high school of the relative attractiveness of girls involved in different sports, and I haven't really followed professional women's sports, enough to test it, or pretty much at all.

    Here I was even flattering myself to consider the theory that attractiveness might be part of the initial sorting mechanism. Lesbians staying away from the better-looking sports to avoid being picked on by good-looking girls and because they scorn seeing other women getting attention from guys.
  54. …who is taller than her.

    American women are certified insane. I think even doctors can’t help you here, only the cleansing fire.

  55. @Anon7
    Consider roller derby, which was coed in the Sixties when it was on TV:

    Why Is Roller Derby Important To So Many Queer Women?

    “The roller derby community provided me with queer community before I even realized that I was looking for it. I was partnered with a man when I began playing roller derby. Over time, as I began to understand my sexuality differently, I was always able to be open with my teammates. Talking with them about their journeys helped me understand myself better. Coming out as a lesbian was just not a big deal in derby ― my teammates celebrated with me ― so that gave me confidence to come out to others as well.”

     

    Not just in the United States.

    https://youtu.be/dP9Rv5gmPVE

    Oh yes, my Mrs. and I found that out this year. The local roller derby squad plays their meets at the same sports complex our city’s amateur hockey team plays at. One evening this past winter we saw a hockey game the same night a roller derby match was being played in another part of the sports complex. After the hockey game we went to a nearby brewery not knowing it was hosting an after party for the roller derby gals. When the two teams showed up at the brewery it took lil old me, who isn’t always quick on the draw, all of five minutes to determine 98% of these girls are lesbians. Of course if the girls flirting, hugging, and kissing each other wasn’t a tip off, the big gal in the furry costume wearing a hat with QUEEN DYKE embroidered in sequins would have confirmed it. I truly felt bad for the one dude who was trying to pick up some of the cuter girls. It just wasn’t going to happen. Later in the evening some girls did ask me to join a conga line for the song Girls Just Want to Have Fun (they sent the shortest, most tattooed girl to ask me). I’ll admit, I joined the line. My wife did not, but had fun laughing at me.

    When we got back home I Binged the team webpage. Yeah, lots of rainbow and Pride emblems.

    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

  56. @mmack
    That doesn’t explain soccer, which requires leg use for running back and forth on the field, and kicking the ball to pass it or score a goal.

    I guess my theory is really in its primitive stages – mainly based on old discussions from high school of the relative attractiveness of girls involved in different sports, and I haven’t really followed professional women’s sports, enough to test it, or pretty much at all.

    Here I was even flattering myself to consider the theory that attractiveness might be part of the initial sorting mechanism. Lesbians staying away from the better-looking sports to avoid being picked on by good-looking girls and because they scorn seeing other women getting attention from guys.

  57. @mmack
    Oh yes, my Mrs. and I found that out this year. The local roller derby squad plays their meets at the same sports complex our city’s amateur hockey team plays at. One evening this past winter we saw a hockey game the same night a roller derby match was being played in another part of the sports complex. After the hockey game we went to a nearby brewery not knowing it was hosting an after party for the roller derby gals. When the two teams showed up at the brewery it took lil old me, who isn’t always quick on the draw, all of five minutes to determine 98% of these girls are lesbians. Of course if the girls flirting, hugging, and kissing each other wasn’t a tip off, the big gal in the furry costume wearing a hat with QUEEN DYKE embroidered in sequins would have confirmed it. I truly felt bad for the one dude who was trying to pick up some of the cuter girls. It just wasn’t going to happen. Later in the evening some girls did ask me to join a conga line for the song Girls Just Want to Have Fun (they sent the shortest, most tattooed girl to ask me). I’ll admit, I joined the line. My wife did not, but had fun laughing at me.

    When we got back home I Binged the team webpage. Yeah, lots of rainbow and Pride emblems.

    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don’t like doing violence to other women. It’s kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today’s requirement.

    • Replies: @Jake
    So all those black chicks who knock down, hair pulling, breast smashing fights with other females are lesbian at heart?

    Or is your assessment about white females, and blacks are the ultra wild, ultra violent exception to the rule?
    , @mmack
    Steve,

    Good point. I thought I’d see some shapely gals with tattoos, piercings, and attitude showing some leg. I hadn’t considered the Mrs. and I would be walking into Pride Night. Then again my Mrs. pointed out the brewery we went to hosts Drag Queen Brunches on Sundays. That should have tipped me off. A month or so after this happened she showed me a Facebook post from the brewery about some LGBTQ event. I said to her “We’re really not their target audience are we?”
    Her reply “No, no we are not”.
    , @Buzz Mohawk
    If hens killed other hens, there wouldn't be as many eggs.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    I am willing to make an exception for obnoxious liberal women.
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Generally speaking, women who like men don’t like doing violence to other women. It’s kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today’s requirement.
     
    I think it may be more accurate to say that the essentially female style in conflict is to compete with other women in a passive aggressive manner - dissembling, rumor-mongering, manipulating other women in the peer circle, manipulating men, etc. Girls competing for the attention of Joe Quarterback do it by getting the other girls in the peer group to talk about what a huge slut Suzie is, not by beating her up (and making one's self appear much less attractive in the process).

    Physical aggression just doesn't play into most women's strong suit, and the flip side to "doing violence to other women" is "having violence done to you by other women."

    It stands to reason therefore that women who don't care about attracting male sexual attention (or who indeed seek to actively repel it) would be more likely to abandon the rules of femininity and intra-female conflict for violence.
    , @Wilkey

    Generally speaking, women who like men don’t like doing violence to other women. It’s kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today’s requirement.

     

    Which probably has more to do with lesbians being more naturally angry than anything else.

    My all-time favorite involving violence in women's sports is the famous video of New Mexico soccer player Elizabeth Lambert going ape-shit crazy against half the BYU soccer team back in 2009 - punching players, kicking the ball in their head and all but ripping the ponytail off one of the BYU players.

    I have never found anything to validate it either way, but my theory is that Lambert was a lesbian engaging in an on-field hate crime against the BYU players because they were Mormon, attacking them because the Mormon church had supported the passage of Prop 8 in California (Lambert's home state) the year before. The fact that Lambert had supposedly never engaged in such behavior on the field before, and that so many leftists predictably rushed to her defense, sort of bolsters my theory.

    , @Anonymous
    Heterosexual women might not like to punch other women(or people in general), but they are extremely nasty verbally and psychologically to women they see as competitors for the men they fancy. Teenage girls are *horrible* to each other. Much, much nastier than boys. Like Gore Vidal used to say, never underestimate the will and vicousness of a woman in love.
  58. @guest
    Could you possibly think basketball doesn't much involve legs?

    It is not a question of the relative energy output of limbs, so much as whether or not it is a hand skill/aggression sport. Even beyond shooting, you need dribbling skills, or you will lose. Basketball is very much a hand sport, in that regard.

    • Replies: @guest
    That's why they called him Michael "Hands" Jordan instead of Michael "Air" Jordan.
  59. @R.G. Camara
    But is it cause or effect?

    Perhaps when the sports first started, they all tried some inter-mixed contests, but it didn't work out too well in some sports (e.g. golf) because the man-hating dykes were grumpy, frumpy, and dumpy, and the dudes were not much for flirting with ugly women who gave them attitude. So the co-ed stuff was nixed in those sports.

    And basketball seems to have a fair amount of co-ed events/mixing type things in high school, yet its lesbians all the way down in the WNBA.

    I stand by my earlier interpretation: straight women prefer subjective sports (figure skating, gymnastics), where the contest is in the arbitrary hands of judges who need to be wooed psychologically. Lesbians, trying to ape men, seek out more objective sports, where winning means something observable and not subtle (e.g. scoring more runs in a baseball game).

    As opposed to my time in high school, now girls high school basketball in many areas often is not paired with the boys team for scheduling. Plus, the girls now have their own non-high school team traveling teams, AAU, for the rest of the year. College women’s basketball is not paired with the men’s team at all.

    Steve’s theory then would say that the WNBA would have a pool with many lesbians from which to choose.

  60. @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

    So all those black chicks who knock down, hair pulling, breast smashing fights with other females are lesbian at heart?

    Or is your assessment about white females, and blacks are the ultra wild, ultra violent exception to the rule?

  61. @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

    Steve,

    Good point. I thought I’d see some shapely gals with tattoos, piercings, and attitude showing some leg. I hadn’t considered the Mrs. and I would be walking into Pride Night. Then again my Mrs. pointed out the brewery we went to hosts Drag Queen Brunches on Sundays. That should have tipped me off. A month or so after this happened she showed me a Facebook post from the brewery about some LGBTQ event. I said to her “We’re really not their target audience are we?”
    Her reply “No, no we are not”.

  62. Uh oh. Trump’s gone and done it now. Mentions hating “whites.”

    • Replies: @Gordo

    Uh oh. Trump’s gone and done it now. Mentions hating “whites.”
     
    He even put a capital W for Whites.
    , @AnotherDad

    Al is a con man, a troublemaker, always looking for a score. Just doing his thing. Must have intimidated Comcast/NBC. Hates Whites & Cops!
     
    This is great. This is the puncture your bullshit Trump i voted for.

    Sharpton is an *obvious* con man and the media has treated him as a "Civil Rights Activist" or "voice of black America" for a generation. Trump cuts through the Sharpton b.s. in two sentences. And whacks the media's soft, biased, credulity with a third. Exposes the slimy bottom with a fourth.

    Now, can we get this straight talk on immigration--what will actually determine the future my posterity inherits--and follow it up with action?
    , @R.G. Camara
    Overton window, moved.

    This man's tweets will be read and discussed by future politicians and historians in the same way Caesar's books are by us today. Both men were ruthless populists who rankled the ruling classes of their day and used unconventional, then-uncouth propaganda methods to push for things that were thought verboten.
  63. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    Swimming is an interesting coed sport with regards to this question.

    The great female swimmers aren't lesbians. Jenny Thompson married, Dara Torres married a couple of times (and converted to Judaism), Amy Van Dyken married former NFL punter Tom Rouen. Natalie Coughlin married her swim coach.

    It's my impression that there are more homosexual male swimmers than other sports. ( Ian Thorpe, Mark Tewksbury, Daniel Kowalski.) Of course there's diver Greg Louganis.

    Swimming is kind of a sport for nerds (Michael Phelps aside). A lot of the women look like lesbians even if they aren’t. Plain in demeanor and appearance. Compare that to tennis or track & field, big difference. Even women’s golf is more glammed up.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    You can't wear makeup in the pool and jewelry causes water drag.
    , @Swizzle stick
    Summer Sanders was an Olympic swimmer who became an actress/game show host. Her Olympic career was some time ago, though.
  64. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:

    The Armenian tech billionaire who married Serena Williams must really be gay and have a passion for black men. The only reason I can think that he married him/her is that she has all the muscles a black man has but hasn’t robbed him yet because she gots her own stuffs and perhaps is a little less intimidating than a Mike Tyson type when he goes home to mother.

    • Agree: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    They have a child.

    The most likely explanation is that she's really good at playing tennis and he's really good at making billions and they are really for hot each other.

    , @Massimo Heitor

    The Armenian tech billionaire who married Serena Williams must really be gay and have a passion for black men. The only reason I can think that he married him/her is that she has all the muscles a black man has but hasn’t robbed him yet because she gots her own stuffs and perhaps is a little less intimidating than a Mike Tyson type when he goes home to mother.
     
    Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style. I presume and hope they enjoy each other like a happily married couple...
  65. @Anonymousse
    Maybe counter intuitive for some - but I personally have observed only heterosexual women involved in Brazilian jiu jitsu and amateur wrestling. Not judging from a giant sample but not a tiny one either.

    Correct me with your own contrary observations or please fit that into the theory somehow. Sexually normal women enjoying violent male dominated confrontational grappling seems like an interesting phenomena to me.

    Easy explanation: certain types of men (trashy ex military especially) really really like those grappling/wrestling sports, so straight women getting into it are trying to attract/impress those men.

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Anonymousse
    Well olympic style wrestling is not even a sport practiced by adults, it’s almost all high school and college. It’s also a sport most common in traditionally white areas of the coutry. So I don’t buy that explanation.

    Also are you sure you haven’t subliminally absorbed some “toxic masculinity” media messages? Believing in the updated 2000s version of the dumb blonde jock villain from most jewish movie?

    There are arguably disproportionate meatheads in the MMA scene (certainly the TV coverage plays that up!) but I personally don’t observe that in BJJ. It’s a very wide cross section... many doctors lawyers etc.

    Your mileage may vary but that doesn’t ring true to me
    , @JimDandy
    I read a pretty interesting study once that concluded that heterosexual women vary in levels of dominance and are attracted to me a tick or two higher than them in dominance. So, the MOST dominant women are attracted to super-dominant men, whereas not-so dominant women preferred men who were lower on in dominance--but still higher than them.

    There are certainly full-on adult hetero Tomboys--and they often have higher testosterone and more rugged physical structures than most women, and almost always date very macho men.
  66. @SWlM C.
    All sports attract homosexuals of either sex, closeted or otherwise. Obsessive athleticism in young adulthood is a red flag of homosexual tendencies.
    98% of women are closeted bisexuals.

    https://www.psypost.org/2018/02/brain-scan-study-bisexual-heterosexual-women-equally-aroused-male-female-50707

    Most people today have gotten the long ago media fascination with the ‘Down Low’ topic.

    Down Low was a phrase that marked black men who outwardly posed as straight, most of them married for much of their adult life, but who were very active in gay sex. The world of black athletes was filled with men that many talked about as on the Down Low.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Where did the phrase Down Low come from?
    , @RadicalCenter
    Oh for the days when a guy “going on the DL” just meant that a player had injured himself.
    , @R.G. Camara
    Most of which comes from the West African Big Man societies, where the top Big Man hordes all the women and all the lesser men get nothing. Many turn to each other for sexual release, but don't consider it gay, for the obvious reason that they wouldn't be doing it if they were the Big Man themselves. Which is the same over her with Slave Americans. Why do think blacks are so passionate about their hair, their clothes, their bodies, and looking good while dancing? And why do you think HIV rates are higher than normal in black communities?
  67. The only semi-famous softball-baseball counterexample: Jenny Finch and former MLB pitcher Casey Daigle. But basically spot-on.

  68. Very interesting theory. The only quibble is that it’s not just the Olympic track events that are coed but all the way down to random Wednesday high school meets and practices.

    As further confirmation for this, I recently met a very cute straight young woman who is into Rugby of all things. Well, it turns out that she and the other female rugby players in what, at first glance, seems like should be an extremely dykey spot mostly function as a Women’s Auxiliary for the local men’s rugby scene and occasionally play coed “touch” rugby.

  69. Nancy Lopez, maybe the best female golfer of the 20th century married baseballer Ray Knight.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Ray Knight wasn't a superstar baseball player, but he was a World Series MVP and then a manager.

    Chris Evert married a couple of tennis players who were a lot lower ranked than her. Then she married golf superstar Greg Norman. They were enraptured for about six months, but then then they started to drive their step children crazy with their demands for high accomplishment. Chris Evert and Greg Norman aren't normal human beings, so it's tough being their stepchildren.

  70. Is there an economic theory? Maybe the structure of compensation determines if a Lesbian would come out of the closet?

    Pro tennis and golf, presenting the wrong image to the public might make selling sports gear and what not difficult, so a lesbian will not be obvious about it. It is not clear what the status of LPGA and WTA players is until they retire and get married. The Roller Derby and WNBA would not have many paying fans were it not for out Ls.

    A record 56 out LGBT athletes compete in Rio Olympics
    The Rio Olympics has 56 publicly out LGBT athletes, the most ever for an Olympics.

    https://www.outsports.com/2016/7/11/12133594/rio-olympics-teams-2016-gay-lgbt-athletes-record

    A sociological theory: Since female athletes would seem to be highly desirable, perhaps only true Lesbians are able to keep their careers going as they will not end up married having children.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Annika Sorenstam was the best woman golfer of all time in 2003. Why? Because she was juicing like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, that's why. But still she retired at age 38 to get married and immediately have two kids.

    Good for her.

  71. When I watched coed roller derby on TV in the 1960’s (just before Big Time Wrestling) it was played on a banked track that allowed a lot of speed. Today’s roller derby is played on flat tracks, which I should have realized, given where I’ve seen it. There is a sports complex that my kids played lacrosse and T-ball at, and in the last few years I’ve been seeing flat track roller derby.

    This is not an attractive crowd. A lot of women with a lot of tattoos, black clothes, piercings, almost entirely white as far as I can tell. Take a look at this game; I’ve never ventured in to see one myself. There are four blockers and one jammer with a star on her helmet. The jammers earn points by passing blockers. The fact that the track is flat makes it a much more static contest.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=0UinVsiezJY

    If you’re a big gal, overweight, beefy and can stand up on skates – you are a prized asset in roller derby as a blocker. If you’re a skinny gal, quick and you don’t mind taking shots to the face, you might be a jammer.

    Not sure where this fits into Steve’s theory (btw, there is a duplicated paragraph in the original post). Here’s an old Advocate article I found that really lays it out, and makes me wonder if I really want this “sport” where my kids play:

    Roller Derby Queens: Short Skirts, Fishnets, and Full Contact. Inside the Lesbian Underground of the Los Angeles Derby Dolls

    I’m not alone in my appreciation of derby’s return. In the past seven months, reports out film director and die-hard derby fan Liz Lachman, the number of dykes in the crowd has swollen to the point that the games feel considerably like gay bars–“in a good way,” she hastens to add.

    It makes sense. First, roller derby is the ultimate expression of something lesbians have long known: Women playing sports are hot. And players get up to all kinds of sexual antics during games. One Doll loops around the track offering her ass for fans to slap (many men and women accept). Both teams pile on top of a fallen skater and playfully hump her. (Imagine for a moment this happening during a football game) It’s also hard not to be sexy when you’re leaning over in a short skirt pumping your legs-especially when your ass is toned by hours of roller skating every week. (In fact, the bent-over view is so risque that the Derby Dolls instituted a “panty check” for players before games.)

    Derby’s open sexuality stands out at a time when mainstream women’s sports have an uneasy relationship with sex. Basketball and soccer players face pressure to look sexually attractive in spite of their athleticism rather than because of it. The Chicago Tribune reported that the WNBA, at this year’s league-wide rookie training, taught makeup application along with jump shots. “You’re a woman first,” WNBA vice president Renee Brown told the Tribune. “You just happen to play sports.”

    For roller derby players, there’s no either/or. “We feed off our hotness,” says 25-year-old Kristen Adolfi, a.k.a. Krissy Krash. “There’s some connection between that sports high and sexuality. When you score five points, that is hot.”

    • Replies: @mmack
    I remember Roller Derby on TV in the 1970s when I was a kid. I thought the return of Roller Derby was a hipster thing, like Pabst Blue Ribbon beer becoming popular, or guys growing Smiths Brothers beards, or fedoras, or putting rings in your earlobes. I honestly had no idea of the lesbian angle.
    , @Known Fact
    https://youtu.be/QVYgoejO3ac
    , @RadicalCenter
    I took two of our children to the LA Derby Dolls and, yes, I was clueless enough not to know of their, and the sport’s, lesbian reputation. It wasn’t subtle.

    Luckily the children were very young and didn’t pick up on it. I invited a friend and his girlfriend, and she remarked that she was getting ogled obviously by other women. Best line of the night was hers: “this time I’d feel safer using the men’s bathroom.” LOL.

    I chatted in a friendly way with some stereotypically dykey women behind us and they weren’t too unfriendly, but did not seem comfortable either. The general atmosphere was odd, that’s all, and I’d never bring any older girl. The announcer at one point remarked, while doing kind of play by play, about how nice one player’s legs were and how she’d like to talk to HER afterwards — gross and out of place, as it would have been if a normal person had said it about a player of the opposite sex.

    Derby Dolls is one of those little experiences it is funny to have had, but I wouldn’t bother again.

    Without the pervert vibe, it could be a fun thing to see for a change of pace once in a while. The Dolls use a banked track and thus skate at a faster pace.
  72. @George
    Is there an economic theory? Maybe the structure of compensation determines if a Lesbian would come out of the closet?

    Pro tennis and golf, presenting the wrong image to the public might make selling sports gear and what not difficult, so a lesbian will not be obvious about it. It is not clear what the status of LPGA and WTA players is until they retire and get married. The Roller Derby and WNBA would not have many paying fans were it not for out Ls.

    A record 56 out LGBT athletes compete in Rio Olympics
    The Rio Olympics has 56 publicly out LGBT athletes, the most ever for an Olympics.

    https://www.outsports.com/2016/7/11/12133594/rio-olympics-teams-2016-gay-lgbt-athletes-record

    A sociological theory: Since female athletes would seem to be highly desirable, perhaps only true Lesbians are able to keep their careers going as they will not end up married having children.

    Annika Sorenstam was the best woman golfer of all time in 2003. Why? Because she was juicing like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, that’s why. But still she retired at age 38 to get married and immediately have two kids.

    Good for her.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @George
    You should consult a council before saying concrete stuff like that. A net search on steroids+ her name does not yield convincing hits so your statements should be vaguer.

    I don't get how any top tier athlete can avoid getting caught.
    , @Corvinus
    "Annika Sorenstam was the best woman golfer of all time in 2003. Why? Because she was juicing like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, that’s why."

    Where is your specific evidence other than suspicion, Mr. Sailer?
  73. @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

    If hens killed other hens, there wouldn’t be as many eggs.

  74. @Orangeman
    Nancy Lopez, maybe the best female golfer of the 20th century married baseballer Ray Knight.

    Ray Knight wasn’t a superstar baseball player, but he was a World Series MVP and then a manager.

    Chris Evert married a couple of tennis players who were a lot lower ranked than her. Then she married golf superstar Greg Norman. They were enraptured for about six months, but then then they started to drive their step children crazy with their demands for high accomplishment. Chris Evert and Greg Norman aren’t normal human beings, so it’s tough being their stepchildren.

  75. @guest
    What does some Congolian have to do with an Alpine mountain?

    What does some Congolian have to do with an Alpine mountain?

    Not much, which is probably the point.

    They’re building a future that involves a lot more Congolese.

    • LOL: BB753
  76. @anonymous
    The Armenian tech billionaire who married Serena Williams must really be gay and have a passion for black men. The only reason I can think that he married him/her is that she has all the muscles a black man has but hasn't robbed him yet because she gots her own stuffs and perhaps is a little less intimidating than a Mike Tyson type when he goes home to mother.

    They have a child.

    The most likely explanation is that she’s really good at playing tennis and he’s really good at making billions and they are really for hot each other.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    ...and they are really for hot each other.
     
    Please get more sleep. You're starting to sound like Tiny.

    We need you.
  77. @S. Anonyia
    Swimming is kind of a sport for nerds (Michael Phelps aside). A lot of the women look like lesbians even if they aren't. Plain in demeanor and appearance. Compare that to tennis or track & field, big difference. Even women's golf is more glammed up.

    You can’t wear makeup in the pool and jewelry causes water drag.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    Synchronized swimmers wear loads of makeup.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZiA9ZWxTz4k
  78. @Alan Mercer
    Tennis: Sergiy Stakhovsky (highest singles rank world no. 31) claimed in 2015 that about half of the women's tour is gay. Reading the context, it may have been hyperbole. Hard to judge.

    There's plenty of dating that goes on among the players. Serena and Dimitrov, Sharapova and Dimitrov, Monfils and Svitolina, Federer and Mirka (who was pro), Wawrinka and Vekic, Thiem and Mladenovic, Sock and Sloane Stephens. These are just the major players (at least one partner in top 10 at some point) during this century, and I'm sure I've missed a bunch.

    One of them once remarked, and I forget who, that it's very easy to date other tennis players because you have practically no other option. The tour is brutal. Think about travelling around the world, maybe 2-3 weeks of vacation at home, nonstop for a decade or two. Those travelling with you become sort of family. The ATP and WTA don't share all events, but there are plenty. The schedule in fact probably affords a serious professional athlete just enough time apart for training.

    It may have varied at different points in the past, but very few of the top women tennis players today are lesbians. Stakhvosky was probably mad about getting shot down. The men and women aren’t in the same cities every week, but often enough that it could naturally lead to some paring up between them.

  79. @Steve Sailer
    You can't wear makeup in the pool and jewelry causes water drag.

    Synchronized swimmers wear loads of makeup.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZiA9ZWxTz4k

  80. @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

    I am willing to make an exception for obnoxious liberal women.

  81. @Alan Mercer
    Tennis: Sergiy Stakhovsky (highest singles rank world no. 31) claimed in 2015 that about half of the women's tour is gay. Reading the context, it may have been hyperbole. Hard to judge.

    There's plenty of dating that goes on among the players. Serena and Dimitrov, Sharapova and Dimitrov, Monfils and Svitolina, Federer and Mirka (who was pro), Wawrinka and Vekic, Thiem and Mladenovic, Sock and Sloane Stephens. These are just the major players (at least one partner in top 10 at some point) during this century, and I'm sure I've missed a bunch.

    One of them once remarked, and I forget who, that it's very easy to date other tennis players because you have practically no other option. The tour is brutal. Think about travelling around the world, maybe 2-3 weeks of vacation at home, nonstop for a decade or two. Those travelling with you become sort of family. The ATP and WTA don't share all events, but there are plenty. The schedule in fact probably affords a serious professional athlete just enough time apart for training.

    Hingis lamented that the top men all get to date their choice of younger models while the top women have a much smaller pool of desirable suitors.

    A pro tennis player man was her ideal first choice but the pretty model got him.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "Hingis lamented that the top men all get to date their choice of younger models while the top women have a much smaller pool of desirable suitors."

    She must have noticed as far back as high school that the boys who are good at sports attract a better class of girl than the girls who are good at sports attract of boys.

    I attended a young guy's 18th birthday do, very good at sport and so were most of his mates. The girls there (all slim and pretty) had obviously spent hours in front of the mirror on makeup, hair and jewellery. Their clothes were - er - minimalist and only just decent.

    The guys were just in the usual casuals they'd wear after a game. Life isn't fair;-)
    , @Autochthon
    Hingis married a handsome professional equestrian dude six years yer junior, presumably in great shape – then ("allegedly") cheated on him – ("allegedly") a lot. She also bore him no children.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359951/Martina-Hingis-estranged-husband-Thibault-Hutin-says-shes-court-cheater.html

    Most traditional women would probably have been thrilled to land this guy and been loyal, birthing him a passel of beautiful children.

    I wouldn't shed many tears for her complaints.
  82. @songbird
    It is not a question of the relative energy output of limbs, so much as whether or not it is a hand skill/aggression sport. Even beyond shooting, you need dribbling skills, or you will lose. Basketball is very much a hand sport, in that regard.

    That’s why they called him Michael “Hands” Jordan instead of Michael “Air” Jordan.

  83. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "Softball tends to be aggressively lesbian, although straight girls are allowed to signal they don’t want to be involved in all the lesbian softball romantic drama by wearing bows in their hair."

    I"m still waiting for Steve to qualify this statement. I have two daughters that have played a combination of 12 years in softball. They've done inhouse, travel, middle school, and high school ball and I haven't seen any evidence that more softball players are lesbian. The organization my younger daughter is with recruits the local NAIA university's softball team players to coach and provide lessons, and all but one are hair-to-the-butt, yoga pants wearing cuties.

    I would say that most of the grown women coaching softball are lesbians, but almost all of those women are 6-12th grade teachers. In fact the biggest concentration of lesbians I have observed is in the teaching profession.

    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law's 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL's circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer's convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    It’s been pointed out that lesbians tend to be high testosterone women – the stereotypical butch, but I think that some are simply women who can’t get a man. Do you think that your sister-in-law’s friends are just very unattractive women who couldn’t snag a guy? Women tend to be more, ahem, flexible in this regard. Perhaps they find Black men unappealing.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    I'm not sure about the T levels; it's a plausible theory but I've never seen any data.

    As afar as not being able to get a man - I don't know. There are some pretty desperate men in this world and one thing about black men is they seem to have no trepidation about scooping up the 1's through 5's white women. To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It's more about companionship I'd gather. This observation seems to discredit the "born that way" theory for women at least, as that male homosexuals are largely obnoxiously horny, and will fuck a knot hole in a tree stump if no better offer immediately presents itself. Then again, higher T levels usually produce a higher sex drive in both men and women, so maybe T levels in lesbians aren't significantly higher.

    My theory, based on what I've read and heard around the sisterhood first hand, is that having a terrible relationship with their father correlates greatly with lesbianism. Not all of course. There's also no question that women who are legitimately strict lesbians are 95% soft 5 and below. My sister in law has always been the best looking lesbian I've ever met personally, and she's maybe a 7.
  84. @S. Anonyia
    Easy explanation: certain types of men (trashy ex military especially) really really like those grappling/wrestling sports, so straight women getting into it are trying to attract/impress those men.

    Well olympic style wrestling is not even a sport practiced by adults, it’s almost all high school and college. It’s also a sport most common in traditionally white areas of the coutry. So I don’t buy that explanation.

    Also are you sure you haven’t subliminally absorbed some “toxic masculinity” media messages? Believing in the updated 2000s version of the dumb blonde jock villain from most jewish movie?

    There are arguably disproportionate meatheads in the MMA scene (certainly the TV coverage plays that up!) but I personally don’t observe that in BJJ. It’s a very wide cross section… many doctors lawyers etc.

    Your mileage may vary but that doesn’t ring true to me

  85. @R.G. Camara
    But is it cause or effect?

    Perhaps when the sports first started, they all tried some inter-mixed contests, but it didn't work out too well in some sports (e.g. golf) because the man-hating dykes were grumpy, frumpy, and dumpy, and the dudes were not much for flirting with ugly women who gave them attitude. So the co-ed stuff was nixed in those sports.

    And basketball seems to have a fair amount of co-ed events/mixing type things in high school, yet its lesbians all the way down in the WNBA.

    I stand by my earlier interpretation: straight women prefer subjective sports (figure skating, gymnastics), where the contest is in the arbitrary hands of judges who need to be wooed psychologically. Lesbians, trying to ape men, seek out more objective sports, where winning means something observable and not subtle (e.g. scoring more runs in a baseball game).

    But so much of lesbianism is just man-hating. They’re not really attracted to other females, they just feel more comfortable and natural with them.

    Look, aggressive is as aggressive does. If you’re a big, pushy woman who’s out to get her way, you’ll get success in sports and business. But very few men will be interested in you. That makes you resentful (plus the fact that no matter how hard you try, you’ll never be as good as the guys in sports) and increases your unattractiveness. So you go the “I don’t care” route or call yourself a lesbian.

    • Replies: @Paul Mendez

    But so much of lesbianism is just man-hating. They’re not really attracted to other females, they just feel more comfortable and natural with them.
     
    This is also my experience.

    I once had a lesbian tell me that when she was in love with a man, she lost her own sense of identity and could think about nothing else but pleasing him. She found such submissive behavior repugnant, so she decided to stick to women.
  86. @Anon
    Softball and basketball seem to have lots of lesbians.

    Track and field is pretty straight.

    Anybody know about volleyball?

    Competitive high school volleyball teams would seem to be disproportionately straight (and white.)
    My guess (based on my years as a “volley-dad”) is that any starter on any pretty good team will likely have spent years playing travel volleyball.

    Travel volleyball is something to which ambitious suburban parents steer their athletic daughters, beginning at a fairly early age. (Though not as early as the serious tennis parents.)

    To the extent that “lesbianism” is environmentally determined, those suburban parents will likely have minimized (consciously or not) whatever environmental factors that may shape their daughters’ sexual preferences for other women.

    Why?

    Because (again, whether those active suburban travel sport parents thought about it or not) they are generally shaping as many environmental factors in their daughters’ lives as they can to get the most desirable outcome possible.

    In my view, softball and basketball are sports that tend to reward unusually high levels of testosterone, more so than volleyball.

    Involved (travel)Parents of daughters with unusually high testosterone levels may be more inclined to push their daughters towards the sports that tend to reward that.

  87. Competitive high school volleyball teams would seem to be disproportionately straight (and white.)
    My guess (based on my years as a “volley-dad”) is that any starter on any pretty good team will likely have spent years playing travel volleyball.

    Travel volleyball is something to which ambitious suburban parents steer their athletic daughters, beginning at a fairly early age. (Though not as early as the serious tennis parents.)

    To the extent that “lesbianism” is environmentally determined, those suburban parents will likely have minimized (consciously or not) whatever environmental factors that may shape their daughters’ sexual preferences for other women.

    Why?

    Because (again, whether those active suburban travel sport parents thought about it or not) they are generally shaping as many environmental factors in their daughters’ lives as they can to get the most desirable outcome possible.

    In my view, softball and basketball are sports that tend to reward unusually high levels of testosterone, more so than volleyball.

    Involved (travel) parents of daughters with unusually high testosterone levels may be more inclined to push their daughters towards the sports that tend to reward that.

  88. @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don’t like doing violence to other women. It’s kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today’s requirement.

    I think it may be more accurate to say that the essentially female style in conflict is to compete with other women in a passive aggressive manner – dissembling, rumor-mongering, manipulating other women in the peer circle, manipulating men, etc. Girls competing for the attention of Joe Quarterback do it by getting the other girls in the peer group to talk about what a huge slut Suzie is, not by beating her up (and making one’s self appear much less attractive in the process).

    Physical aggression just doesn’t play into most women’s strong suit, and the flip side to “doing violence to other women” is “having violence done to you by other women.”

    It stands to reason therefore that women who don’t care about attracting male sexual attention (or who indeed seek to actively repel it) would be more likely to abandon the rules of femininity and intra-female conflict for violence.

  89. Pretty much any/every theory is new to me — just saying.

    Ms. Muhammad, like a lot of top women runners, is a pretty girl who puts effort into looking nice.

    I’ve always thought Allyson Felix was a very nice, attractive young woman.

  90. What sports attract gays? Other than ostentatiously gay Reds center fielder Yasiel Puig, I cant think of any gay athletes in US pro sports, major, country-club, or olympic.

    • Replies: @njguy73

    ostentatiously gay Reds center fielder Yasiel Puig,

     

    And you came to that conclusion how?
  91. @Daniel H
    I think that lesbians are into fishing.

    Or clam digging- not sure if modern palates prefer the bearded variety anymore.

  92. @Bill P
    My theory is that sports that involve tools are going to attract more lesbians and sports that draw attention to the athlete attract more normal women.

    Take tennis and golf for instance. Although tennis is a "tool" sport, when tennis players are having a match you look at the player a lot while they move around, serve, etc. In golf, you watch the swing of the club and the trajectory of the ball. The golfer does not steal the show like a tennis player does, hence the popularity of tennis among straight women.

    If there were a women's lumberjack (lumberjane?) Olympics I predict it would be nearly 100% lesbian, coed or not.

    Judge for yourself:

    (at least in the US, a big part of the pipeline to timbersports competition is through co-ed collegiate clubs at universities with big forestry schools, so that may be a confounding factor.).

  93. It seems to me that most of the lesbian action is in women’s team sports, and probably at the NCAA level and above. I’ve heard anecdotes about a lesbian on a college soccer team serially seducing the other “straight” players. The players are just around one another so much with training camp, practice and team travel that it can crowd out a lot of other (mixed sex) social activity. It just seems that female sexuality is different in that the bond of friendship and camaraderie can be a powerful enough attractant to overwhelm categorization of one’s sexuality for women under the right circumstances in a way that it wouldn’t for men. If one strongly identifies as exclusively lesbian from a relatively early age, making the travel team is probably a very desirable thing from the perspective of your preferred social opportunities – at the very least you’re not going to be hanging out with a bunch of horny teen boys and with the upside that you will have the opportunities to form strong interpersonal relationships with other girls which could substitute for dating or lead to more.

    My guess is that this first really becomes more pronounced at the NCAA level, since the women are no longer under the supervision of parents, and colleges are now aggressively culturally left and therefore favorable to deviant sexual experimentation.

    Women able to be attracted to other women are probably non-trivially correlated with more left brain abilities (i.e., spatial intelligence) due perhaps to higher neonatal exposure to testosterone. But there could also be a chicken-and-egg building effect where girls initially inclined to competitive athletics maintain lower body fat and higher than average testosterone due to aggressive and competitive behavior spiking it through and after puberty. By the time you get to a level like the USWNT you’re going to get a significant overrepresentation of women who could be attracted to other women, among which there will be many who are or become lesbians.

    FWIW, I’m surprised no one has yet mentioned the track-and-field film Personal Best in the context of this discussion.

    • Replies: @Anonymousse

    But there could also be a chicken-and-egg building effect where girls initially inclined to competitive athletics maintain lower body fat and higher than average testosterone due to aggressive and competitive behavior spiking it through and after puberty
     
    But gymnastics is NOT a sport known at all for lesbianism and gymnasts are among the most conditioned most muscled lowest bodyfat female athletes

    Is it possible that there’s nothing intrinsically homosexual about women’s softball or basketball, but it just acquired that reputation culturally and then few few normal girls would go into it anymore?

    By analogy it’s not obvious to me that what we’d now call “fashion designers” were particularly homosexual until they became particularly known for being homosexual... which seemed like a particular subcultural trend from a specific time.
  94. @R.G. Camara
    But is it cause or effect?

    Perhaps when the sports first started, they all tried some inter-mixed contests, but it didn't work out too well in some sports (e.g. golf) because the man-hating dykes were grumpy, frumpy, and dumpy, and the dudes were not much for flirting with ugly women who gave them attitude. So the co-ed stuff was nixed in those sports.

    And basketball seems to have a fair amount of co-ed events/mixing type things in high school, yet its lesbians all the way down in the WNBA.

    I stand by my earlier interpretation: straight women prefer subjective sports (figure skating, gymnastics), where the contest is in the arbitrary hands of judges who need to be wooed psychologically. Lesbians, trying to ape men, seek out more objective sports, where winning means something observable and not subtle (e.g. scoring more runs in a baseball game).

    Golf and tennis are completely objective sports yet neither one attracts many lesbians on the pro level. Same for track and field.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    If you ever want to argue that tennis is a "completely objective sport", please speak with John McEnroe first:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xea1KKEgOco
  95. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And hunting, for the most part.

    An ever-increasing percentage of hunters are women and it’s having an effect on the industry. For example, the enormous success of the 6.5 Creedmoor rifle cartridge is at least in part because it’s a mild round that many women find easy to manage.
    Even so, I believe that most female hunters get their start by following their fathers or husbands. Not many are lesbians.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Rural women are rarely lesbian but also rarely all that feminine either. The two can often be confused with each other. That chick in the back at the lumber outlet could have a husband and two or three kids.
    , @Cortes
    A fairly positive review of the career of a huntress:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1346775/Patricia-Strutt.html

    Other profiles have darker tints.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    I target shoot, but don't hunt. My hunter and fisherman dad bought me a .410 shotgun and intended to take me hunting, but by time I was old enough, I couldn't bring myself to shoot Bambi. I also felt sorry for the fish we caught. So much for that.
  96. @Anon7
    When I watched coed roller derby on TV in the 1960’s (just before Big Time Wrestling) it was played on a banked track that allowed a lot of speed. Today’s roller derby is played on flat tracks, which I should have realized, given where I’ve seen it. There is a sports complex that my kids played lacrosse and T-ball at, and in the last few years I’ve been seeing flat track roller derby.

    This is not an attractive crowd. A lot of women with a lot of tattoos, black clothes, piercings, almost entirely white as far as I can tell. Take a look at this game; I’ve never ventured in to see one myself. There are four blockers and one jammer with a star on her helmet. The jammers earn points by passing blockers. The fact that the track is flat makes it a much more static contest.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=0UinVsiezJY

    If you’re a big gal, overweight, beefy and can stand up on skates - you are a prized asset in roller derby as a blocker. If you’re a skinny gal, quick and you don’t mind taking shots to the face, you might be a jammer.

    Not sure where this fits into Steve’s theory (btw, there is a duplicated paragraph in the original post). Here’s an old Advocate article I found that really lays it out, and makes me wonder if I really want this “sport” where my kids play:


    Roller Derby Queens: Short Skirts, Fishnets, and Full Contact. Inside the Lesbian Underground of the Los Angeles Derby Dolls

    I’m not alone in my appreciation of derby's return. In the past seven months, reports out film director and die-hard derby fan Liz Lachman, the number of dykes in the crowd has swollen to the point that the games feel considerably like gay bars--"in a good way," she hastens to add.

    It makes sense. First, roller derby is the ultimate expression of something lesbians have long known: Women playing sports are hot. And players get up to all kinds of sexual antics during games. One Doll loops around the track offering her ass for fans to slap (many men and women accept). Both teams pile on top of a fallen skater and playfully hump her. (Imagine for a moment this happening during a football game) It's also hard not to be sexy when you're leaning over in a short skirt pumping your legs-especially when your ass is toned by hours of roller skating every week. (In fact, the bent-over view is so risque that the Derby Dolls instituted a "panty check" for players before games.)

    Derby's open sexuality stands out at a time when mainstream women's sports have an uneasy relationship with sex. Basketball and soccer players face pressure to look sexually attractive in spite of their athleticism rather than because of it. The Chicago Tribune reported that the WNBA, at this year's league-wide rookie training, taught makeup application along with jump shots. "You're a woman first," WNBA vice president Renee Brown told the Tribune. "You just happen to play sports."

    For roller derby players, there's no either/or. "We feed off our hotness," says 25-year-old Kristen Adolfi, a.k.a. Krissy Krash. "There's some connection between that sports high and sexuality. When you score five points, that is hot."

     

    I remember Roller Derby on TV in the 1970s when I was a kid. I thought the return of Roller Derby was a hipster thing, like Pabst Blue Ribbon beer becoming popular, or guys growing Smiths Brothers beards, or fedoras, or putting rings in your earlobes. I honestly had no idea of the lesbian angle.

  97. @Anon
    In Japan national level volleyball is very popular, with no hint of lesbians, and its a big joke that middle aged men have the hots for female volleyball stars.

    Here's another idea: maybe the lesbian/girly break just happens by chance, Waddington's Epigenetic Valley style, winner take all, network effects style, the one to get a big lead first took over the culture.

    Thats what I was wondering too.

  98. @Steve Sailer
    They have a child.

    The most likely explanation is that she's really good at playing tennis and he's really good at making billions and they are really for hot each other.

    …and they are really for hot each other.

    Please get more sleep. You’re starting to sound like Tiny.

    We need you.

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    Agreed.

    Pretty sure anon[191] posted the more realistic scenario.
  99. @Steve Sailer
    Annika Sorenstam was the best woman golfer of all time in 2003. Why? Because she was juicing like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, that's why. But still she retired at age 38 to get married and immediately have two kids.

    Good for her.

    You should consult a council before saying concrete stuff like that. A net search on steroids+ her name does not yield convincing hits so your statements should be vaguer.

    I don’t get how any top tier athlete can avoid getting caught.

    • Replies: @Barnard
    The LPGA didn't start testing for anything until 2008, which was coincidentally or not, Sorenstam's last year on the tour. She may have been at a point where she was ready to have kids and was at a natural point where her skill level would naturally start to decline. Or she might have wanted to quit before she got caught using banned substances. I don't think we will ever know.
  100. @peterike
    Uh oh. Trump's gone and done it now. Mentions hating "whites."

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1155787721576779776

    Uh oh. Trump’s gone and done it now. Mentions hating “whites.”

    He even put a capital W for Whites.

  101. @Prosa123
    An ever-increasing percentage of hunters are women and it's having an effect on the industry. For example, the enormous success of the 6.5 Creedmoor rifle cartridge is at least in part because it's a mild round that many women find easy to manage.
    Even so, I believe that most female hunters get their start by following their fathers or husbands. Not many are lesbians.

    Rural women are rarely lesbian but also rarely all that feminine either. The two can often be confused with each other. That chick in the back at the lumber outlet could have a husband and two or three kids.

    • Replies: @Prosa123
    Agreed. My impression is that rural women tend to be more self-reliant and plain spoken than their suburban and urban counterparts and this can come off as a seeming lack of femininity. If you're a woman who has grown up chopping wood, driving a tractor and hunting deer you probably can change the oil in your vehicle and drag the trash cans to the curb without having to ask your husband or boyfriend. Moreover, because rural men admire these traits in women the women don't need to play the helpless damsel card to snag a man.
    , @Jim Don Bob

    Rural women are rarely lesbian but also rarely all that feminine either.
     
    I was at an auto repair shop in West Virginia recently and the woman behind the counter was about 5'10", cute, with a short hair cut. I told my buddy that any woman who looked like that in a blue state was probably gay. Not her though.
    , @Corn
    I told a coworker once farm girls tended to come in two varieties: you had the stereotypical “farmer’s daughter” who could stir dead men in her little sundresses or short denim shorts.........or you had little men who wore boots, jeans, big belt buckles and plaid shirts. They were basically the son their father never had or the farmhand their husband couldn’t afford.
  102. Meg Rapinoe looks like Milo Yiannopoulis. I just thought I needed to get that observation out there.

  103. @Prosa123
    An ever-increasing percentage of hunters are women and it's having an effect on the industry. For example, the enormous success of the 6.5 Creedmoor rifle cartridge is at least in part because it's a mild round that many women find easy to manage.
    Even so, I believe that most female hunters get their start by following their fathers or husbands. Not many are lesbians.

    A fairly positive review of the career of a huntress:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1346775/Patricia-Strutt.html

    Other profiles have darker tints.

  104. @R.G. Camara
    Volleyball is where tall straight girls go in high school and college if they really want to play a sport in the winter but don't want to hang out with the lesbians in basketball and don't like running. Mostly I've seen tall whites and Asians, but sometimes a Michelle Obama-type black girl who likes boys will join in.

    Basically, they aren't going to get elbowed in the face driving to the basket and not get molested in the showers, so they like it more. Also, its similar to tennis in rules and play, a sport which also traditionally attracted straight females who wanted to compete -- before the Williams gorillas ruined it with their steroids.

    “they aren’t going to get elbowed in the face driving to the basket ”

    Made me think about the fact that volleyball is a non contact sport. Teams are separated by a inviolable DMZ, the net.

    At the same time, with the spikes at the net, it is about aggressive physical domination and humiliation of the opponent without physical contact. They attack at the weakest point. The ball becomes a weapon.

    Women’s beach volleyball was the best venue ever to watch the female body in motion, clad only in sunglasses and bikinis, no distracting or concealing clothing, no air brushing, no pin up poses. Different body types, not cookie cutter clones, example the team of May and Walsh.

  105. @Anonymousse
    Maybe counter intuitive for some - but I personally have observed only heterosexual women involved in Brazilian jiu jitsu and amateur wrestling. Not judging from a giant sample but not a tiny one either.

    Correct me with your own contrary observations or please fit that into the theory somehow. Sexually normal women enjoying violent male dominated confrontational grappling seems like an interesting phenomena to me.

    There are plenty of out rug munchers in UFC and MMA in general.

  106. @Prosa123
    An ever-increasing percentage of hunters are women and it's having an effect on the industry. For example, the enormous success of the 6.5 Creedmoor rifle cartridge is at least in part because it's a mild round that many women find easy to manage.
    Even so, I believe that most female hunters get their start by following their fathers or husbands. Not many are lesbians.

    I target shoot, but don’t hunt. My hunter and fisherman dad bought me a .410 shotgun and intended to take me hunting, but by time I was old enough, I couldn’t bring myself to shoot Bambi. I also felt sorry for the fish we caught. So much for that.

  107. @Reg Cæsar

    ...and they are really for hot each other.
     
    Please get more sleep. You're starting to sound like Tiny.

    We need you.

    Agreed.

    Pretty sure anon[191] posted the more realistic scenario.

  108. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "Softball tends to be aggressively lesbian, although straight girls are allowed to signal they don’t want to be involved in all the lesbian softball romantic drama by wearing bows in their hair."

    I"m still waiting for Steve to qualify this statement. I have two daughters that have played a combination of 12 years in softball. They've done inhouse, travel, middle school, and high school ball and I haven't seen any evidence that more softball players are lesbian. The organization my younger daughter is with recruits the local NAIA university's softball team players to coach and provide lessons, and all but one are hair-to-the-butt, yoga pants wearing cuties.

    I would say that most of the grown women coaching softball are lesbians, but almost all of those women are 6-12th grade teachers. In fact the biggest concentration of lesbians I have observed is in the teaching profession.

    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law's 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL's circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer's convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    The woman who runs one of the local softball organizations is a lesbian.

    As for the high school age players: they tended to be straight. Often they dated baseball players or other male athletes.

    I gather there are a few college teams where the lesbians bullied the straight girls into leaving the team.

    I have heard rumors about the bows, but I have never seen it or heard of anyone with a kid whose team used bows. Some lesbians claimed that the bows were a way for the straight girls to bully the lesbians. I have no idea.

    By the college level, there are more young ladies by far playing co-ed slow pitch than playing fast pitch. The men on the teams were sometimes former baseball players. I knew one couple that met in college playing on the same co-ed softball team. Their daughter had a tremendous amount of talent in softball, but about zero interest in the game.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Just to be clear I'm not saying lesbians aren't in softball, I just don't see the "aggressively lesbian" aspect Steve does, or even a higher number of them really.

    I've never heard about the bows. It might be a college level thing. Every year to this point there is always a hyper team mom who makes bows for the entire team to wear.

    As far as slow pitch, you may be right, I don't know. All my experience is with fast pitch.
  109. @George
    You should consult a council before saying concrete stuff like that. A net search on steroids+ her name does not yield convincing hits so your statements should be vaguer.

    I don't get how any top tier athlete can avoid getting caught.

    The LPGA didn’t start testing for anything until 2008, which was coincidentally or not, Sorenstam’s last year on the tour. She may have been at a point where she was ready to have kids and was at a natural point where her skill level would naturally start to decline. Or she might have wanted to quit before she got caught using banned substances. I don’t think we will ever know.

    • Replies: @George
    Ok, but iSteve is not an anonymous internet message board troll like me if a liable suit was initiated. So if I were iSteve I would be vague on such matters and let the trolls handle the dirty work. Isn't that what trolls are for?
    , @Corvinus
    "I don’t think we will ever know."

    Right, but when Mr. Sailer says unequivocally she was on the juice without any proof to back up the claim, he is indicating that he DOES know.
  110. e says:

    I can only think of one marriage between pro golfers: Gardner and Judy Dickinson back in the 1970s.

    I think a lot of straight women’s pro golfers marry their coaches or their caddy although the only big name that immediately comes to mind is Dotty Pepper, whose second husband was her caddy for a long while. Last I read, she’s on her third marriage, this one to a golf writer.

  111. e says:
    @Prosa123
    Yet there aren't too many lesbians among women golfers.

    I think you’re wrong about that. I’ve been to enough women’s golf tournaments from the 70s through 2010 to tell you that there’s a strong contingent of them and the crowds that follow them.

    The old Dinah Shore Golf tournament in Rancho Mirage CA (renamed the Kraft-Nabisco sometime after Shore’s death and now known as the ANA) is attended by hoards of lesbians (Yes, I chose “hoards” on purpose as they make their presence known so much that the attendance by straight men and women has been affected.) The event is essentially a lesbian holiday as they mark that date on their calendar, buy up the hotel rooms, and come from all over.

    Other than Nancy Lopez, who made the cover of major sports and non-sports magazine covers in her time, lady golfers don’t make huge news so their sexual orientation stays out of print. Australian golfer Karrie Webb is an LPGA HOFer, a huge success in the United States, a lesbian, but one reading articles about her accomplishments back the day would never know.

    (BTW, I was surprised to learn that the marriage of Nancy Lopez and former MLB star Ray Knight, while it lasted a few decades, ended in divorce after all those years and kids together.)

  112. College sports must create a huge dating scene (that’s before adding in romances within the marching band and pep squad).

  113. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Anybody know about volleyball?

     

    That's the question that occurred to me as well.

    According to Steve's hypothesis, it should tend lesbian, since it's pretty much girls-only in high school and college. But volleyball players have always struck me as being more feminine than, say, basketball players. But I'm not really sure this is correct.

    What about contact sports vs non-contact sports as a potential dividing line?

    Soccer and hoops involve contact; volleyball doesn't.

    But then softball doesn't really, either, although it is a hand-eye-coordination/hit-ball-with-stick sport like golf.

    Maybe we need a flowchart.

    No, Volleyball isn’t that lesbian, primarily because it is a sport culture that allows heterosexual women to gratuitously show their asses off–and even provides girls with a full-on soft porn option if they branch off into beach volleyball. What healthy, straight young woman doesn’t like teasing cock, amirite? The relatively feminine costumes of volleyball, tennis, gymnastics, running, and swimming all allow healthy young girls to show off a lot of flesh. Softball, golf, and basketball all favor more masculine attire, thus the preponderance of carpet munchers.

    • Agree: Aft
  114. e says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    "Softball tends to be aggressively lesbian, although straight girls are allowed to signal they don’t want to be involved in all the lesbian softball romantic drama by wearing bows in their hair."

    I"m still waiting for Steve to qualify this statement. I have two daughters that have played a combination of 12 years in softball. They've done inhouse, travel, middle school, and high school ball and I haven't seen any evidence that more softball players are lesbian. The organization my younger daughter is with recruits the local NAIA university's softball team players to coach and provide lessons, and all but one are hair-to-the-butt, yoga pants wearing cuties.

    I would say that most of the grown women coaching softball are lesbians, but almost all of those women are 6-12th grade teachers. In fact the biggest concentration of lesbians I have observed is in the teaching profession.

    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law's 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL's circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer's convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law’s 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL’s circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer’s convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    Well, that’s true of most straight men (and women) too, who as adults are really just sports’ spectators, not athletically gifted themselves. In fact many of the most rabid football and baseball fans I know are men who didn’t even play on a team of any kind in high school..

  115. @peterike
    Uh oh. Trump's gone and done it now. Mentions hating "whites."

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1155787721576779776

    Al is a con man, a troublemaker, always looking for a score. Just doing his thing. Must have intimidated Comcast/NBC. Hates Whites & Cops!

    This is great. This is the puncture your bullshit Trump i voted for.

    Sharpton is an *obvious* con man and the media has treated him as a “Civil Rights Activist” or “voice of black America” for a generation. Trump cuts through the Sharpton b.s. in two sentences. And whacks the media’s soft, biased, credulity with a third. Exposes the slimy bottom with a fourth.

    Now, can we get this straight talk on immigration–what will actually determine the future my posterity inherits–and follow it up with action?

  116. @S. Anonyia
    Easy explanation: certain types of men (trashy ex military especially) really really like those grappling/wrestling sports, so straight women getting into it are trying to attract/impress those men.

    I read a pretty interesting study once that concluded that heterosexual women vary in levels of dominance and are attracted to me a tick or two higher than them in dominance. So, the MOST dominant women are attracted to super-dominant men, whereas not-so dominant women preferred men who were lower on in dominance–but still higher than them.

    There are certainly full-on adult hetero Tomboys–and they often have higher testosterone and more rugged physical structures than most women, and almost always date very macho men.

  117. Serena Williams’ husband, Alex Ohanian, is not a tech billionaire, his worth is estimated by Forbes at $70M, which is generous given that Reddit never made a profit and it doesn’t look it ever will. No matter how much they sanitized it, Reddit is not attractive for advertisers.

  118. @Anon7
    When I watched coed roller derby on TV in the 1960’s (just before Big Time Wrestling) it was played on a banked track that allowed a lot of speed. Today’s roller derby is played on flat tracks, which I should have realized, given where I’ve seen it. There is a sports complex that my kids played lacrosse and T-ball at, and in the last few years I’ve been seeing flat track roller derby.

    This is not an attractive crowd. A lot of women with a lot of tattoos, black clothes, piercings, almost entirely white as far as I can tell. Take a look at this game; I’ve never ventured in to see one myself. There are four blockers and one jammer with a star on her helmet. The jammers earn points by passing blockers. The fact that the track is flat makes it a much more static contest.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=0UinVsiezJY

    If you’re a big gal, overweight, beefy and can stand up on skates - you are a prized asset in roller derby as a blocker. If you’re a skinny gal, quick and you don’t mind taking shots to the face, you might be a jammer.

    Not sure where this fits into Steve’s theory (btw, there is a duplicated paragraph in the original post). Here’s an old Advocate article I found that really lays it out, and makes me wonder if I really want this “sport” where my kids play:


    Roller Derby Queens: Short Skirts, Fishnets, and Full Contact. Inside the Lesbian Underground of the Los Angeles Derby Dolls

    I’m not alone in my appreciation of derby's return. In the past seven months, reports out film director and die-hard derby fan Liz Lachman, the number of dykes in the crowd has swollen to the point that the games feel considerably like gay bars--"in a good way," she hastens to add.

    It makes sense. First, roller derby is the ultimate expression of something lesbians have long known: Women playing sports are hot. And players get up to all kinds of sexual antics during games. One Doll loops around the track offering her ass for fans to slap (many men and women accept). Both teams pile on top of a fallen skater and playfully hump her. (Imagine for a moment this happening during a football game) It's also hard not to be sexy when you're leaning over in a short skirt pumping your legs-especially when your ass is toned by hours of roller skating every week. (In fact, the bent-over view is so risque that the Derby Dolls instituted a "panty check" for players before games.)

    Derby's open sexuality stands out at a time when mainstream women's sports have an uneasy relationship with sex. Basketball and soccer players face pressure to look sexually attractive in spite of their athleticism rather than because of it. The Chicago Tribune reported that the WNBA, at this year's league-wide rookie training, taught makeup application along with jump shots. "You're a woman first," WNBA vice president Renee Brown told the Tribune. "You just happen to play sports."

    For roller derby players, there's no either/or. "We feed off our hotness," says 25-year-old Kristen Adolfi, a.k.a. Krissy Krash. "There's some connection between that sports high and sexuality. When you score five points, that is hot."

     

  119. @Reg Cæsar
    Rural women are rarely lesbian but also rarely all that feminine either. The two can often be confused with each other. That chick in the back at the lumber outlet could have a husband and two or three kids.

    Agreed. My impression is that rural women tend to be more self-reliant and plain spoken than their suburban and urban counterparts and this can come off as a seeming lack of femininity. If you’re a woman who has grown up chopping wood, driving a tractor and hunting deer you probably can change the oil in your vehicle and drag the trash cans to the curb without having to ask your husband or boyfriend. Moreover, because rural men admire these traits in women the women don’t need to play the helpless damsel card to snag a man.

  120. @Anonymous
    Amanda Nunes, the UFC's woman bamtamweight champion, is an open lesbian. She beat the shit out of Holly Holm and nearly killed her. She did the same to Ronda Rousey and Chris Cyborg. Straight women, even when they are physically very gifted, cannot compete with the Lesbian's butch instincts. Lesbians, like straight men and unlike straight women and gay men, actually want to hurt their opponents during a fight. Straight women fighters in general just want to "compete". Having that mentality does not do you much good in a sport where winning the competition involves causing as much physical injury to your competitor as quickly as possible.

    One of the biggest differences between men and women is not only physical, but the *mind* . Sure, men are much stronger, more explosive and durable. But perhaps the most important difference is in mindset. For instance, if you punch a woman or a little boy, the most likely reaction that you get from them is that they start to cry. Conversely, if you punch an adult man, the most likely reaction that you get from him is that he becomes enraged and wants to punch you back. It is primarily a difference in *mentality* . Men are much, much nastier in their desire to cause pain, injury and death to people they are mad at. This is why women will never make great soldiers. Even if you can make weapons and equipment so light that any woman can carry them, they just don't have the mindset of burning people alive and shooting them in the head like angry men have. Men's "will to kill" is much more pronounced. And this applies to most sports too to some degree or another, since sports are "make believe" warfare. Some like MMA and boxing much more than others like cayaking or golf, but the analogy holds.

    If we’re ever going to have a man vs. woman MMA fight, we’ve got a good chance for it right now: a superfight between men’s 125- and 135-lb. champ Henry Cejudo and women’s 135- and 145-lb. champ Amanda Nunes. They could meet in the middle at 135. Nunes is no Caster Semenya, but she seems like a very high-t gal, so she might have a real chance. Cejudo has expressed an interest in the fight.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    She may have plenty of pluck but Henry can just browbeat her...

    https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/cejudo
    , @Anonymous
    Well, in her case, her physical strength and aggressiveness are closer to that of a male her size rather than a female. Amanda Nunes is pretty much a man in a dress - and I am saying this metaphorically, since Nunes is not the kind of chick to wear dresses. I am sure that Nunes' clitoris is probably the size of a penis. And I don't mean that do say that she took steroids, but rather that, as you observed, she probably has abnormally high levels of androgens for a woman. Well, in all fairness to Nunes, at least she was born a woman, with ovaries and all. She is not literally a man who put on a dress and decided that he is actually a woman.
  121. @Jake
    Most people today have gotten the long ago media fascination with the 'Down Low' topic.

    Down Low was a phrase that marked black men who outwardly posed as straight, most of them married for much of their adult life, but who were very active in gay sex. The world of black athletes was filled with men that many talked about as on the Down Low.

    Where did the phrase Down Low come from?

  122. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "Softball tends to be aggressively lesbian, although straight girls are allowed to signal they don’t want to be involved in all the lesbian softball romantic drama by wearing bows in their hair."

    I"m still waiting for Steve to qualify this statement. I have two daughters that have played a combination of 12 years in softball. They've done inhouse, travel, middle school, and high school ball and I haven't seen any evidence that more softball players are lesbian. The organization my younger daughter is with recruits the local NAIA university's softball team players to coach and provide lessons, and all but one are hair-to-the-butt, yoga pants wearing cuties.

    I would say that most of the grown women coaching softball are lesbians, but almost all of those women are 6-12th grade teachers. In fact the biggest concentration of lesbians I have observed is in the teaching profession.

    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law's 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL's circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer's convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    “…with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer’s convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .”

    This is true. Every fat lesbian I’ve ever worked with has had severe and chronic bullshititis of every variety and a never ending series of obscure and invisible ailments.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Fibromyalgia - the unknown gift that keeps on giving... worker's comp.
  123. @R.G. Camara
    Roller Derby is also pretty much a fixed sport, or at least it comes off that way. It's vibe and action are somewhere between pro wrestling and a mobbed-up boxing tournament.

    If Roller Derby wasn’t fake the injuries would be “Rollerball” level nightly.

  124. @Reg Cæsar
    Rural women are rarely lesbian but also rarely all that feminine either. The two can often be confused with each other. That chick in the back at the lumber outlet could have a husband and two or three kids.

    Rural women are rarely lesbian but also rarely all that feminine either.

    I was at an auto repair shop in West Virginia recently and the woman behind the counter was about 5’10”, cute, with a short hair cut. I told my buddy that any woman who looked like that in a blue state was probably gay. Not her though.

  125. Steve, we can tell in your prose that you are genuinely happy for Lisa Leslie. It’s quite heartwarming to know a guy that I’ve believed in from the start is such a good person. It shows often enough but needed to be commented on again. Keep up the good work.

  126. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    It seems to me that most of the lesbian action is in women's team sports, and probably at the NCAA level and above. I've heard anecdotes about a lesbian on a college soccer team serially seducing the other "straight" players. The players are just around one another so much with training camp, practice and team travel that it can crowd out a lot of other (mixed sex) social activity. It just seems that female sexuality is different in that the bond of friendship and camaraderie can be a powerful enough attractant to overwhelm categorization of one's sexuality for women under the right circumstances in a way that it wouldn't for men. If one strongly identifies as exclusively lesbian from a relatively early age, making the travel team is probably a very desirable thing from the perspective of your preferred social opportunities - at the very least you're not going to be hanging out with a bunch of horny teen boys and with the upside that you will have the opportunities to form strong interpersonal relationships with other girls which could substitute for dating or lead to more.

    My guess is that this first really becomes more pronounced at the NCAA level, since the women are no longer under the supervision of parents, and colleges are now aggressively culturally left and therefore favorable to deviant sexual experimentation.

    Women able to be attracted to other women are probably non-trivially correlated with more left brain abilities (i.e., spatial intelligence) due perhaps to higher neonatal exposure to testosterone. But there could also be a chicken-and-egg building effect where girls initially inclined to competitive athletics maintain lower body fat and higher than average testosterone due to aggressive and competitive behavior spiking it through and after puberty. By the time you get to a level like the USWNT you're going to get a significant overrepresentation of women who could be attracted to other women, among which there will be many who are or become lesbians.

    FWIW, I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the track-and-field film Personal Best in the context of this discussion.

    But there could also be a chicken-and-egg building effect where girls initially inclined to competitive athletics maintain lower body fat and higher than average testosterone due to aggressive and competitive behavior spiking it through and after puberty

    But gymnastics is NOT a sport known at all for lesbianism and gymnasts are among the most conditioned most muscled lowest bodyfat female athletes

    Is it possible that there’s nothing intrinsically homosexual about women’s softball or basketball, but it just acquired that reputation culturally and then few few normal girls would go into it anymore?

    By analogy it’s not obvious to me that what we’d now call “fashion designers” were particularly homosexual until they became particularly known for being homosexual… which seemed like a particular subcultural trend from a specific time.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    But gymnastics is NOT a sport known at all for lesbianism and gymnasts are among the most conditioned most muscled lowest bodyfat female athletes
     
    I wrote that there were two potential factors in increasing testosterone among girls around and after puberty - both lower bodyfat and competitive/aggressive behavior. I'm referring to competitive and aggressive behavior directed towards other girls.

    Additionally, gymnastics is "serious" at very early ages and the low body fat of the participants has been known to delay puberty.

    Is it possible that there’s nothing intrinsically homosexual about women’s softball or basketball, but it just acquired that reputation culturally and then few few normal girls would go into it anymore?
     
    There's nothing intrinsically homosexual about women's softball or basketball, but there is something which favors lesbians in their interest and inclination to play these sports at a competitive level, especially during and after puberty. Again, it's my contention that lesbians probably aren't real - there are any number of factors which could under the right circumstances incline a woman to desire or acquiesce to sexual contact with other women, and my proposal is that engaging in competitive team sports may be one such factor in shaping this outcome. In other contexts such as single-sex, politically left institutions like Bryn Mawr the LUG (Lesbian Until Graduation) phenomenon is real. In other words, I think hormonal balances and environment have a significant role to play here.

    I understand that the modern political orthodoxy is that people are born gay and that any dissent from this is supposed to be silly and backward and therefore rejected out of hand, but it very clearly does not accurately describe reality.
  127. @Anon7
    Consider roller derby, which was coed in the Sixties when it was on TV:

    Why Is Roller Derby Important To So Many Queer Women?

    “The roller derby community provided me with queer community before I even realized that I was looking for it. I was partnered with a man when I began playing roller derby. Over time, as I began to understand my sexuality differently, I was always able to be open with my teammates. Talking with them about their journeys helped me understand myself better. Coming out as a lesbian was just not a big deal in derby ― my teammates celebrated with me ― so that gave me confidence to come out to others as well.”

     

    Not just in the United States.

    https://youtu.be/dP9Rv5gmPVE

    I’d propose the theory that all sports favor certain body types as competitive and women’s basketball and softball just psychologically favor body types that men find particularly unappealing.

    A bunch of women that can’t get male attention traveling around together for years… and there you go.

    A partial test for this – is lesbianism less prevalent among sprinters than marathon runners? It’s pretty obvious that sprinters develop more attractive physiques, so they should be less lesbian if I’m on to anything

  128. TJ says:

    The world class female pole vaulters are a wonder of nature. Nearly all exquisite white women, good looking and with bodies that would make any straight male eyes water. One suspects that these girls and young women are straight arrows. These sculptured beauties are the Greek ideal and are pure eye candy and believe me these mostly Nordic beauties know it.
    Watch them in competition on youtube.

  129. @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    It's been pointed out that lesbians tend to be high testosterone women - the stereotypical butch, but I think that some are simply women who can't get a man. Do you think that your sister-in-law's friends are just very unattractive women who couldn't snag a guy? Women tend to be more, ahem, flexible in this regard. Perhaps they find Black men unappealing.

    I’m not sure about the T levels; it’s a plausible theory but I’ve never seen any data.

    As afar as not being able to get a man – I don’t know. There are some pretty desperate men in this world and one thing about black men is they seem to have no trepidation about scooping up the 1’s through 5’s white women. To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It’s more about companionship I’d gather. This observation seems to discredit the “born that way” theory for women at least, as that male homosexuals are largely obnoxiously horny, and will fuck a knot hole in a tree stump if no better offer immediately presents itself. Then again, higher T levels usually produce a higher sex drive in both men and women, so maybe T levels in lesbians aren’t significantly higher.

    My theory, based on what I’ve read and heard around the sisterhood first hand, is that having a terrible relationship with their father correlates greatly with lesbianism. Not all of course. There’s also no question that women who are legitimately strict lesbians are 95% soft 5 and below. My sister in law has always been the best looking lesbian I’ve ever met personally, and she’s maybe a 7.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It’s more about companionship I’d gather.
     
    That's why "Boston marriages" weren't such a big deal. There was no sex going on so they weren't homosexuals in the strictest sense. I'm not even sure it's a biblical sin for women to live together if they never do anything sexual.

    I'm convinced lesbianism is almost wholly situational, whereas male homosexuality has a biological and a situational basis. Any woman in the right situation will go that way whereas most men never will, a few always will, and a few more will in the right (or wrong) situation.
    , @Ris_Eruwaedhiel
    Three articles on Unz.com regarding lesbians, two by Steve:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/why-lesbians-arent-gay/?highlight=lesbians

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/world-war-t-never-underestimate-the-more-masculine-minds-urge-for-dominance/?highlight=lesbians

    https://www.unz.com/article/does-female-equality-mean-more-lesbians/?highlight=lesbians

    I think that there different reasons for different women. Some lesbians man-hating radical feminists or fear men due to rape or molestation or simply mistrust men.

    Issues with dad might cause problems, too. I've read that early feminists in general were saddled with lousy dads or husbands. Instead of thinking, "I have a lousy dad" or "I have a lousy husband," they think, "men are lousy." Leftists frequently project on society or a segment of society their own personal misfortunes or failings.

    There was a tv show 30 years ago called "Kate and Allie" about two divorcees living and raising their kids together. Practical solution to their situation. Single ladies might live together and either aren't interested in (re-)marrying or no longer look. Who knows what they do behind closed doors? We live in a sex-drenched society and often can't imagine two close friends of the same or opposite sex living together and not getting physically intimate.

    , @Intelligent Dasein

    I’m not sure about the T levels;
     
    The T-theory promoters around here are really getting ridiculous. It's important to remember that a young, healthy woman is going to have testosterone levels that are about 1/10th that of a frail, moribund, 80-year-old man. There is no amount of non-artificial testosterone that is going to make the slightest difference in a woman, behaviorally or physiologically.

    Also, the levels of testosterone in a normal man are going to cycle by several hundred ng/dL each day, so speaking about high-T men and low-T men does not make any sense, either.
  130. @Paleo Liberal
    The woman who runs one of the local softball organizations is a lesbian.

    As for the high school age players: they tended to be straight. Often they dated baseball players or other male athletes.

    I gather there are a few college teams where the lesbians bullied the straight girls into leaving the team.

    I have heard rumors about the bows, but I have never seen it or heard of anyone with a kid whose team used bows. Some lesbians claimed that the bows were a way for the straight girls to bully the lesbians. I have no idea.

    By the college level, there are more young ladies by far playing co-ed slow pitch than playing fast pitch. The men on the teams were sometimes former baseball players. I knew one couple that met in college playing on the same co-ed softball team. Their daughter had a tremendous amount of talent in softball, but about zero interest in the game.

    Just to be clear I’m not saying lesbians aren’t in softball, I just don’t see the “aggressively lesbian” aspect Steve does, or even a higher number of them really.

    I’ve never heard about the bows. It might be a college level thing. Every year to this point there is always a hyper team mom who makes bows for the entire team to wear.

    As far as slow pitch, you may be right, I don’t know. All my experience is with fast pitch.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    Other than that one softball coach, I haven’t seen lesbians in softball at the Little League or club level at all. Of course some could be lesbians and I just didn’t know. There is a website forum discussfastoitch. The vast majority of people posting there are softball dads, with some male coaches. Almost no females post there. They have dealt with the issue of lesbians in softball. Most of the dads and male coaches are of the live-and-let-live variety. A few rare reports of a few college teams being lesbian teams that bully straight girls. Mostly isolated. Also a discussion once about a young lady being bullied off a college team because she wasn’t into heavily drinking and partying after the game. As in, they didn’t care with whom she slept, but they hated that she didn’t par-tay.

    I think there was once a discussion about bows. Some of the dads had heard rumors about the no-homo bows, but nobody had a girl on a team like that. People tried to track down the rumors but couldn’t.

    What I have seen a lot of in sports is a live-and-let-live attitude on the better teams. Some of the female coaches are notorious for getting the “right” sort of girls on their teams. Then there are coaches in all The girls’ sports, both male and female but more often male, who want to put together a winning team. You can guess which group wins more.

    On one local club — not softball— I saw a girl who was quite clearly a dyke on a team that was almost all straight. She was a very strange person, but was treated very well by her coaches and teammates. She went on to be a D-3 athlete. For her a sports team was a place she could be herself and be accepted. Maybe that is something very appealing to lesbians.
  131. @Ghost of Bull Moose
    "...with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer’s convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. ."

    This is true. Every fat lesbian I've ever worked with has had severe and chronic bullshititis of every variety and a never ending series of obscure and invisible ailments.

    Fibromyalgia – the unknown gift that keeps on giving… worker’s comp.

  132. Which sports attract lesbians? C’mon man, team sports.

  133. @stillCARealist
    But so much of lesbianism is just man-hating. They're not really attracted to other females, they just feel more comfortable and natural with them.

    Look, aggressive is as aggressive does. If you're a big, pushy woman who's out to get her way, you'll get success in sports and business. But very few men will be interested in you. That makes you resentful (plus the fact that no matter how hard you try, you'll never be as good as the guys in sports) and increases your unattractiveness. So you go the "I don't care" route or call yourself a lesbian.

    But so much of lesbianism is just man-hating. They’re not really attracted to other females, they just feel more comfortable and natural with them.

    This is also my experience.

    I once had a lesbian tell me that when she was in love with a man, she lost her own sense of identity and could think about nothing else but pleasing him. She found such submissive behavior repugnant, so she decided to stick to women.

  134. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Just to be clear I'm not saying lesbians aren't in softball, I just don't see the "aggressively lesbian" aspect Steve does, or even a higher number of them really.

    I've never heard about the bows. It might be a college level thing. Every year to this point there is always a hyper team mom who makes bows for the entire team to wear.

    As far as slow pitch, you may be right, I don't know. All my experience is with fast pitch.

    Other than that one softball coach, I haven’t seen lesbians in softball at the Little League or club level at all. Of course some could be lesbians and I just didn’t know. There is a website forum discussfastoitch. The vast majority of people posting there are softball dads, with some male coaches. Almost no females post there. They have dealt with the issue of lesbians in softball. Most of the dads and male coaches are of the live-and-let-live variety. A few rare reports of a few college teams being lesbian teams that bully straight girls. Mostly isolated. Also a discussion once about a young lady being bullied off a college team because she wasn’t into heavily drinking and partying after the game. As in, they didn’t care with whom she slept, but they hated that she didn’t par-tay.

    I think there was once a discussion about bows. Some of the dads had heard rumors about the no-homo bows, but nobody had a girl on a team like that. People tried to track down the rumors but couldn’t.

    What I have seen a lot of in sports is a live-and-let-live attitude on the better teams. Some of the female coaches are notorious for getting the “right” sort of girls on their teams. Then there are coaches in all The girls’ sports, both male and female but more often male, who want to put together a winning team. You can guess which group wins more.

    On one local club — not softball— I saw a girl who was quite clearly a dyke on a team that was almost all straight. She was a very strange person, but was treated very well by her coaches and teammates. She went on to be a D-3 athlete. For her a sports team was a place she could be herself and be accepted. Maybe that is something very appealing to lesbians.

  135. I’m only attracted to women who put effort into hair, nails and makeup. I have a nail fetish and love the current trend of women with long pointy nails. It looks so sexy! Yet I seem to be the only guy who prefers the glam look. A lot of guys strongly prefer natural looking women who put no effort into looking pretty. They seem to want women who look like lesbians but are too naive or unaware to notice this.

  136. @Jake
    Most people today have gotten the long ago media fascination with the 'Down Low' topic.

    Down Low was a phrase that marked black men who outwardly posed as straight, most of them married for much of their adult life, but who were very active in gay sex. The world of black athletes was filled with men that many talked about as on the Down Low.

    Oh for the days when a guy “going on the DL” just meant that a player had injured himself.

  137. @S. Anonyia
    Swimming is kind of a sport for nerds (Michael Phelps aside). A lot of the women look like lesbians even if they aren't. Plain in demeanor and appearance. Compare that to tennis or track & field, big difference. Even women's golf is more glammed up.

    Summer Sanders was an Olympic swimmer who became an actress/game show host. Her Olympic career was some time ago, though.

  138. @Anon7
    When I watched coed roller derby on TV in the 1960’s (just before Big Time Wrestling) it was played on a banked track that allowed a lot of speed. Today’s roller derby is played on flat tracks, which I should have realized, given where I’ve seen it. There is a sports complex that my kids played lacrosse and T-ball at, and in the last few years I’ve been seeing flat track roller derby.

    This is not an attractive crowd. A lot of women with a lot of tattoos, black clothes, piercings, almost entirely white as far as I can tell. Take a look at this game; I’ve never ventured in to see one myself. There are four blockers and one jammer with a star on her helmet. The jammers earn points by passing blockers. The fact that the track is flat makes it a much more static contest.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=0UinVsiezJY

    If you’re a big gal, overweight, beefy and can stand up on skates - you are a prized asset in roller derby as a blocker. If you’re a skinny gal, quick and you don’t mind taking shots to the face, you might be a jammer.

    Not sure where this fits into Steve’s theory (btw, there is a duplicated paragraph in the original post). Here’s an old Advocate article I found that really lays it out, and makes me wonder if I really want this “sport” where my kids play:


    Roller Derby Queens: Short Skirts, Fishnets, and Full Contact. Inside the Lesbian Underground of the Los Angeles Derby Dolls

    I’m not alone in my appreciation of derby's return. In the past seven months, reports out film director and die-hard derby fan Liz Lachman, the number of dykes in the crowd has swollen to the point that the games feel considerably like gay bars--"in a good way," she hastens to add.

    It makes sense. First, roller derby is the ultimate expression of something lesbians have long known: Women playing sports are hot. And players get up to all kinds of sexual antics during games. One Doll loops around the track offering her ass for fans to slap (many men and women accept). Both teams pile on top of a fallen skater and playfully hump her. (Imagine for a moment this happening during a football game) It's also hard not to be sexy when you're leaning over in a short skirt pumping your legs-especially when your ass is toned by hours of roller skating every week. (In fact, the bent-over view is so risque that the Derby Dolls instituted a "panty check" for players before games.)

    Derby's open sexuality stands out at a time when mainstream women's sports have an uneasy relationship with sex. Basketball and soccer players face pressure to look sexually attractive in spite of their athleticism rather than because of it. The Chicago Tribune reported that the WNBA, at this year's league-wide rookie training, taught makeup application along with jump shots. "You're a woman first," WNBA vice president Renee Brown told the Tribune. "You just happen to play sports."

    For roller derby players, there's no either/or. "We feed off our hotness," says 25-year-old Kristen Adolfi, a.k.a. Krissy Krash. "There's some connection between that sports high and sexuality. When you score five points, that is hot."

     

    I took two of our children to the LA Derby Dolls and, yes, I was clueless enough not to know of their, and the sport’s, lesbian reputation. It wasn’t subtle.

    Luckily the children were very young and didn’t pick up on it. I invited a friend and his girlfriend, and she remarked that she was getting ogled obviously by other women. Best line of the night was hers: “this time I’d feel safer using the men’s bathroom.” LOL.

    I chatted in a friendly way with some stereotypically dykey women behind us and they weren’t too unfriendly, but did not seem comfortable either. The general atmosphere was odd, that’s all, and I’d never bring any older girl. The announcer at one point remarked, while doing kind of play by play, about how nice one player’s legs were and how she’d like to talk to HER afterwards — gross and out of place, as it would have been if a normal person had said it about a player of the opposite sex.

    Derby Dolls is one of those little experiences it is funny to have had, but I wouldn’t bother again.

    Without the pervert vibe, it could be a fun thing to see for a change of pace once in a while. The Dolls use a banked track and thus skate at a faster pace.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    The Dolls use a banked track and thus skate at a faster pace.
     
    When Roller Derby was TV, all of the tracks were banked. Did this change?
  139. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    I'm not sure about the T levels; it's a plausible theory but I've never seen any data.

    As afar as not being able to get a man - I don't know. There are some pretty desperate men in this world and one thing about black men is they seem to have no trepidation about scooping up the 1's through 5's white women. To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It's more about companionship I'd gather. This observation seems to discredit the "born that way" theory for women at least, as that male homosexuals are largely obnoxiously horny, and will fuck a knot hole in a tree stump if no better offer immediately presents itself. Then again, higher T levels usually produce a higher sex drive in both men and women, so maybe T levels in lesbians aren't significantly higher.

    My theory, based on what I've read and heard around the sisterhood first hand, is that having a terrible relationship with their father correlates greatly with lesbianism. Not all of course. There's also no question that women who are legitimately strict lesbians are 95% soft 5 and below. My sister in law has always been the best looking lesbian I've ever met personally, and she's maybe a 7.

    To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It’s more about companionship I’d gather.

    That’s why “Boston marriages” weren’t such a big deal. There was no sex going on so they weren’t homosexuals in the strictest sense. I’m not even sure it’s a biblical sin for women to live together if they never do anything sexual.

    I’m convinced lesbianism is almost wholly situational, whereas male homosexuality has a biological and a situational basis. Any woman in the right situation will go that way whereas most men never will, a few always will, and a few more will in the right (or wrong) situation.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    "I’m not even sure it’s a biblical sin for women to live together if they never do anything sexual. "

    Well if it is, convents sure have been doing it wrong.
    , @stillCARealist
    With strict sobriety, no woman ever engages in homosexuality. All the experimentation and initiation takes place under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Women's bodies are gross in ways no man could ever understand. Yes, men are gross in their own ways, but that's part of the package and they don't try to conceal it.

    Also, you get nearly any lesbian drunk and get her laughing with a cute, sweet guy... well, she's going to be straight that evening. Guaranteed. I've seen it happen.
  140. I coached against a young Black girl in the 80’s in 7th/8th grade volleyball who ended up playing at UCLA and in the 2000 Sydney Olympics (beach volleyball) and married a Black swimmer from Cleveland who just got touched out for a spot in the Olympics.

    I ended up teaching with her Dad for a couple of years. He played for the Knicks against Wilt Chamberlain the night he scored 100 points in Hershey. The best part of the story is that Wilt was living in NYC even though he played in Philly and offered a ride home to my friend and some other Knicks teammates. Four very tall men folded themselves up and sped off to NYC in Wilt’s sports car.

    I used to see Wilt riding around on his Beach Cruiser by the Santa Monica Pier weekday evenings in the Spring during the early 90’s. Damn, I wish I would have said something to him.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    OK, only one US-born female beach volleyball competitor at Sydney was a UCLA alum. And that was Jenny Johnson Jordan, and her father was 1960 Olympic decathlon gold medalist Rafer Johnson, not a member of the 1962 Knicks. And her husband, Kevin Jordan, played in the NFL.

    Am I missing something?
  141. @Anonymousse
    Maybe counter intuitive for some - but I personally have observed only heterosexual women involved in Brazilian jiu jitsu and amateur wrestling. Not judging from a giant sample but not a tiny one either.

    Correct me with your own contrary observations or please fit that into the theory somehow. Sexually normal women enjoying violent male dominated confrontational grappling seems like an interesting phenomena to me.

    Every woman I have encountered in karate world has been heterosexual, and married to boot.
    Martial arts has a dance/ballet aspect to it. And after all straight women enjoy hitting men every now and then – who can blame them?

  142. @Anthony Wayne
    What sports attract gays? Other than ostentatiously gay Reds center fielder Yasiel Puig, I cant think of any gay athletes in US pro sports, major, country-club, or olympic.

    ostentatiously gay Reds center fielder Yasiel Puig,

    And you came to that conclusion how?

  143. “Most of the biggest US women track stars (e.g., Mary Decker-Slaney, Florence Griffith-Joyner, Jackie Joyner-Kersee, Marion Jones, Allyson Felix) married guys in track & field. (Evelyn Ashford married a basketball coach.”
    An iSteve-ish anecdote of my own. I graduated with Sarah Toomey, daughter of Bill (68 decathlon gold) and Mary Rand, British (64 LJ gold and pentathlon silver). Mary dated a Dutch decathlete and married a British rower before marrying Toomey.
    Weeks ago you were highlighting the white Texas sprinter. Check out Bill Toomey’s sprint times. Not bad for a decathlete and white boy.

  144. @Johnny789
    I coached against a young Black girl in the 80's in 7th/8th grade volleyball who ended up playing at UCLA and in the 2000 Sydney Olympics (beach volleyball) and married a Black swimmer from Cleveland who just got touched out for a spot in the Olympics.

    I ended up teaching with her Dad for a couple of years. He played for the Knicks against Wilt Chamberlain the night he scored 100 points in Hershey. The best part of the story is that Wilt was living in NYC even though he played in Philly and offered a ride home to my friend and some other Knicks teammates. Four very tall men folded themselves up and sped off to NYC in Wilt's sports car.

    I used to see Wilt riding around on his Beach Cruiser by the Santa Monica Pier weekday evenings in the Spring during the early 90's. Damn, I wish I would have said something to him.

    OK, only one US-born female beach volleyball competitor at Sydney was a UCLA alum. And that was Jenny Johnson Jordan, and her father was 1960 Olympic decathlon gold medalist Rafer Johnson, not a member of the 1962 Knicks. And her husband, Kevin Jordan, played in the NFL.

    Am I missing something?

    • Replies: @Johnny789
    Yes. Annett Buckner-Davis and Jenny were teammates at UCLA and were partners on the beach. They lost as the #3 seed in the Quarterfinals to a team from Japan in Sydney at the 2000 Summer Olympics. Their Wikipedia articles are light on the facts. They were great on the beach.
  145. @njguy73
    OK, only one US-born female beach volleyball competitor at Sydney was a UCLA alum. And that was Jenny Johnson Jordan, and her father was 1960 Olympic decathlon gold medalist Rafer Johnson, not a member of the 1962 Knicks. And her husband, Kevin Jordan, played in the NFL.

    Am I missing something?

    Yes. Annett Buckner-Davis and Jenny were teammates at UCLA and were partners on the beach. They lost as the #3 seed in the Quarterfinals to a team from Japan in Sydney at the 2000 Summer Olympics. Their Wikipedia articles are light on the facts. They were great on the beach.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    Oh, I see. Annett was the daughter of Cleveland Buckner.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/buckncl01.html
  146. @anonymous
    The Armenian tech billionaire who married Serena Williams must really be gay and have a passion for black men. The only reason I can think that he married him/her is that she has all the muscles a black man has but hasn't robbed him yet because she gots her own stuffs and perhaps is a little less intimidating than a Mike Tyson type when he goes home to mother.

    The Armenian tech billionaire who married Serena Williams must really be gay and have a passion for black men. The only reason I can think that he married him/her is that she has all the muscles a black man has but hasn’t robbed him yet because she gots her own stuffs and perhaps is a little less intimidating than a Mike Tyson type when he goes home to mother.

    Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style. I presume and hope they enjoy each other like a happily married couple…

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style.
     
    Three hilarious whoppers in three sentences. Thanks for the lulz, little liar.
    , @anonymous
    "Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style"

    I don't know any white men who think that Serena Williams is an attractive nor any that like her look. You must be black and then I would encourage you because she's your own kind.
  147. @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don’t like doing violence to other women. It’s kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today’s requirement.

    Which probably has more to do with lesbians being more naturally angry than anything else.

    My all-time favorite involving violence in women’s sports is the famous video of New Mexico soccer player Elizabeth Lambert going ape-shit crazy against half the BYU soccer team back in 2009 – punching players, kicking the ball in their head and all but ripping the ponytail off one of the BYU players.

    I have never found anything to validate it either way, but my theory is that Lambert was a lesbian engaging in an on-field hate crime against the BYU players because they were Mormon, attacking them because the Mormon church had supported the passage of Prop 8 in California (Lambert’s home state) the year before. The fact that Lambert had supposedly never engaged in such behavior on the field before, and that so many leftists predictably rushed to her defense, sort of bolsters my theory.

  148. @Jake
    Most people today have gotten the long ago media fascination with the 'Down Low' topic.

    Down Low was a phrase that marked black men who outwardly posed as straight, most of them married for much of their adult life, but who were very active in gay sex. The world of black athletes was filled with men that many talked about as on the Down Low.

    Most of which comes from the West African Big Man societies, where the top Big Man hordes all the women and all the lesser men get nothing. Many turn to each other for sexual release, but don’t consider it gay, for the obvious reason that they wouldn’t be doing it if they were the Big Man themselves. Which is the same over her with Slave Americans. Why do think blacks are so passionate about their hair, their clothes, their bodies, and looking good while dancing? And why do you think HIV rates are higher than normal in black communities?

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    The phylogenetic and hiatorical evidence suggests that Europe and Asia, and precontact Americas were the true "Big Man" cultures. Africa has been matrifocal for most of prehistory, and has the greatest Y-DNA variation among males. Incidentally, non-Africans are also less likely be homosexual, with Europeans being the least gay.
  149. @Massimo Heitor

    The Armenian tech billionaire who married Serena Williams must really be gay and have a passion for black men. The only reason I can think that he married him/her is that she has all the muscles a black man has but hasn’t robbed him yet because she gots her own stuffs and perhaps is a little less intimidating than a Mike Tyson type when he goes home to mother.
     
    Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style. I presume and hope they enjoy each other like a happily married couple...

    Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style.

    Three hilarious whoppers in three sentences. Thanks for the lulz, little liar.

    • LOL: JimDandy
  150. @Anon
    Speaking as an Aussie who followed tennis in the another world of the pre-grunting/tantrum era...

    ...I recall as a lad how I liked to watch the ladies playing as ladies, and the men's as proudly blokey (sometimes even gentlemanly).
    I had crushes on both Evonne Goolagong and Chrissie Evert. Both ladies married British tennis players; and while Chrissie's marriage to John Lloyd didn't last (did she rebound from her romance with Jimmy Connors?), I see Evonne is still Mrs Cawley 44 years on...

    (I didn't have a crush on Billie-Jean King, and I didn't like Ilie Natase. Sorry if young iSteve readers don't have a clue whom I'm speaking about, but I'm old...)

    Is tennis in a class of it's own re: 'propinquity' of the sexes? Club houses are mixed, courts side-by-side, social tennis for young and old, the professionals of both sexes going from tournament to tournament on the same tours, and the mixed doubles must make tennis one of the few world sports where one man and one woman playing as a team can win an iconic world championship title as a couple.

    Once upon a time it was common for young people to meet their future spouse at the local tennis club
    ( I’m also talking about Australia here )

  151. @peterike
    Uh oh. Trump's gone and done it now. Mentions hating "whites."

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1155787721576779776

    Overton window, moved.

    This man’s tweets will be read and discussed by future politicians and historians in the same way Caesar’s books are by us today. Both men were ruthless populists who rankled the ruling classes of their day and used unconventional, then-uncouth propaganda methods to push for things that were thought verboten.

  152. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @Massimo Heitor

    The Armenian tech billionaire who married Serena Williams must really be gay and have a passion for black men. The only reason I can think that he married him/her is that she has all the muscles a black man has but hasn’t robbed him yet because she gots her own stuffs and perhaps is a little less intimidating than a Mike Tyson type when he goes home to mother.
     
    Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style. I presume and hope they enjoy each other like a happily married couple...

    “Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style”

    I don’t know any white men who think that Serena Williams is an attractive nor any that like her look. You must be black and then I would encourage you because she’s your own kind.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    I don’t know any white men who think that Serena Williams is an attractive nor any that like her look. You must be black and then I would encourage you because she’s your own kind.
     
    I am a white man and I think she is quite glamorous when she is dressed up and not in tennis mode. I have certainly bedded women equal or less attractive in my time. Men like variety. In Germany Serena would have Caucasian men all over her, and she has had plenty of past lovers of various races, including Europeans.

    Although my first choice is tall, curvy women, it is always nice to have a bit of variety too.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/15/68/cf15685cca7f5d28ad3387a304b37d4a.jpg
  153. @Johnny789
    Yes. Annett Buckner-Davis and Jenny were teammates at UCLA and were partners on the beach. They lost as the #3 seed in the Quarterfinals to a team from Japan in Sydney at the 2000 Summer Olympics. Their Wikipedia articles are light on the facts. They were great on the beach.

    Oh, I see. Annett was the daughter of Cleveland Buckner.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/buckncl01.html

  154. @Thea
    Hingis lamented that the top men all get to date their choice of younger models while the top women have a much smaller pool of desirable suitors.

    A pro tennis player man was her ideal first choice but the pretty model got him.

    “Hingis lamented that the top men all get to date their choice of younger models while the top women have a much smaller pool of desirable suitors.”

    She must have noticed as far back as high school that the boys who are good at sports attract a better class of girl than the girls who are good at sports attract of boys.

    I attended a young guy’s 18th birthday do, very good at sport and so were most of his mates. The girls there (all slim and pretty) had obviously spent hours in front of the mirror on makeup, hair and jewellery. Their clothes were – er – minimalist and only just decent.

    The guys were just in the usual casuals they’d wear after a game. Life isn’t fair;-)

    • Replies: @Wilkey

    She must have noticed as far back as high school that the boys who are good at sports attract a better class of girl than the girls who are good at sports attract of boys...The girls there (all slim and pretty) had obviously spent hours in front of the mirror on makeup, hair and jewellery. Their clothes were – er – minimalist and only just decent.
     
    Slutty clothing and eons of time spent in front of the mirror != "a better class of girl"
  155. @R.G. Camara
    Most of which comes from the West African Big Man societies, where the top Big Man hordes all the women and all the lesser men get nothing. Many turn to each other for sexual release, but don't consider it gay, for the obvious reason that they wouldn't be doing it if they were the Big Man themselves. Which is the same over her with Slave Americans. Why do think blacks are so passionate about their hair, their clothes, their bodies, and looking good while dancing? And why do you think HIV rates are higher than normal in black communities?

    The phylogenetic and hiatorical evidence suggests that Europe and Asia, and precontact Americas were the true “Big Man” cultures. Africa has been matrifocal for most of prehistory, and has the greatest Y-DNA variation among males. Incidentally, non-Africans are also less likely be homosexual, with Europeans being the least gay.

  156. Tour rookie Collin Morikowa who won the opposite field event on the PGA Tour this week is dating a girl who played golf at Pepperdine. While there are few concurrent college and pro tournaments, it is very common for the AJGA to host boys and girls at the same venue. She’s well below tour-level as a player, but has caddied for him in the US AM and some other amateur events.

    Maverick McNealy, son of Sun Microsystems founder Scott McNealy, is dating LPGA player Danielle Kang. They apparently met while practicing at the same course in Las Vegas. Kang seems like a very well-adjusted person who has fun playing, but lacks the drive to be a great player.

  157. @the one they call Desanex
    If we’re ever going to have a man vs. woman MMA fight, we’ve got a good chance for it right now: a superfight between men’s 125- and 135-lb. champ Henry Cejudo and women’s 135- and 145-lb. champ Amanda Nunes. They could meet in the middle at 135. Nunes is no Caster Semenya, but she seems like a very high-t gal, so she might have a real chance. Cejudo has expressed an interest in the fight.
    https://usatmmajunkie.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/henry-cejudo-amanda-nunes-tbc.jpg?w=640

    She may have plenty of pluck but Henry can just browbeat her…

    https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/cejudo

  158. @Anonymous

    To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It’s more about companionship I’d gather.
     
    That's why "Boston marriages" weren't such a big deal. There was no sex going on so they weren't homosexuals in the strictest sense. I'm not even sure it's a biblical sin for women to live together if they never do anything sexual.

    I'm convinced lesbianism is almost wholly situational, whereas male homosexuality has a biological and a situational basis. Any woman in the right situation will go that way whereas most men never will, a few always will, and a few more will in the right (or wrong) situation.

    “I’m not even sure it’s a biblical sin for women to live together if they never do anything sexual. ”

    Well if it is, convents sure have been doing it wrong.

  159. @YetAnotherAnon
    "Hingis lamented that the top men all get to date their choice of younger models while the top women have a much smaller pool of desirable suitors."

    She must have noticed as far back as high school that the boys who are good at sports attract a better class of girl than the girls who are good at sports attract of boys.

    I attended a young guy's 18th birthday do, very good at sport and so were most of his mates. The girls there (all slim and pretty) had obviously spent hours in front of the mirror on makeup, hair and jewellery. Their clothes were - er - minimalist and only just decent.

    The guys were just in the usual casuals they'd wear after a game. Life isn't fair;-)

    She must have noticed as far back as high school that the boys who are good at sports attract a better class of girl than the girls who are good at sports attract of boys…The girls there (all slim and pretty) had obviously spent hours in front of the mirror on makeup, hair and jewellery. Their clothes were – er – minimalist and only just decent.

    Slutty clothing and eons of time spent in front of the mirror != “a better class of girl”

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "Slutty clothing and eons of time spent in front of the mirror != “a better class of girl”"

    To an 18 year old boy it is, no doubt at all. These were good looking girls. Most of them will have grown out of all the mirror time in college, no doubt.
  160. @Anonymousse

    But there could also be a chicken-and-egg building effect where girls initially inclined to competitive athletics maintain lower body fat and higher than average testosterone due to aggressive and competitive behavior spiking it through and after puberty
     
    But gymnastics is NOT a sport known at all for lesbianism and gymnasts are among the most conditioned most muscled lowest bodyfat female athletes

    Is it possible that there’s nothing intrinsically homosexual about women’s softball or basketball, but it just acquired that reputation culturally and then few few normal girls would go into it anymore?

    By analogy it’s not obvious to me that what we’d now call “fashion designers” were particularly homosexual until they became particularly known for being homosexual... which seemed like a particular subcultural trend from a specific time.

    But gymnastics is NOT a sport known at all for lesbianism and gymnasts are among the most conditioned most muscled lowest bodyfat female athletes

    I wrote that there were two potential factors in increasing testosterone among girls around and after puberty – both lower bodyfat and competitive/aggressive behavior. I’m referring to competitive and aggressive behavior directed towards other girls.

    Additionally, gymnastics is “serious” at very early ages and the low body fat of the participants has been known to delay puberty.

    Is it possible that there’s nothing intrinsically homosexual about women’s softball or basketball, but it just acquired that reputation culturally and then few few normal girls would go into it anymore?

    There’s nothing intrinsically homosexual about women’s softball or basketball, but there is something which favors lesbians in their interest and inclination to play these sports at a competitive level, especially during and after puberty. Again, it’s my contention that lesbians probably aren’t real – there are any number of factors which could under the right circumstances incline a woman to desire or acquiesce to sexual contact with other women, and my proposal is that engaging in competitive team sports may be one such factor in shaping this outcome. In other contexts such as single-sex, politically left institutions like Bryn Mawr the LUG (Lesbian Until Graduation) phenomenon is real. In other words, I think hormonal balances and environment have a significant role to play here.

    I understand that the modern political orthodoxy is that people are born gay and that any dissent from this is supposed to be silly and backward and therefore rejected out of hand, but it very clearly does not accurately describe reality.

  161. @Anonymous

    To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It’s more about companionship I’d gather.
     
    That's why "Boston marriages" weren't such a big deal. There was no sex going on so they weren't homosexuals in the strictest sense. I'm not even sure it's a biblical sin for women to live together if they never do anything sexual.

    I'm convinced lesbianism is almost wholly situational, whereas male homosexuality has a biological and a situational basis. Any woman in the right situation will go that way whereas most men never will, a few always will, and a few more will in the right (or wrong) situation.

    With strict sobriety, no woman ever engages in homosexuality. All the experimentation and initiation takes place under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Women’s bodies are gross in ways no man could ever understand. Yes, men are gross in their own ways, but that’s part of the package and they don’t try to conceal it.

    Also, you get nearly any lesbian drunk and get her laughing with a cute, sweet guy… well, she’s going to be straight that evening. Guaranteed. I’ve seen it happen.

    • Replies: @Corn
    “With strict sobriety, no woman ever engages in homosexuality”

    I have to respectfully disagree with this. I find it hard to believe every woman who identifies as straight who has had a lesbian romp was drunk. Some are just curious, some are just garden variety flakes.

    “Also, you get nearly any lesbian drunk and get her laughing with a cute, sweet guy… well, she’s going to be straight that evening. Guaranteed. I’ve seen it happen.”

    This I very much agree with. I think the more butch lesbians, the denim and near-crewcut crowd are pretty committed to women. But the more femme lesbians? The ones who you’d joke “must be the woman of the relationship”?

    Like you said, even if they don’t date men they have trysts with men far more than people think.
  162. @Barnard
    The LPGA didn't start testing for anything until 2008, which was coincidentally or not, Sorenstam's last year on the tour. She may have been at a point where she was ready to have kids and was at a natural point where her skill level would naturally start to decline. Or she might have wanted to quit before she got caught using banned substances. I don't think we will ever know.

    Ok, but iSteve is not an anonymous internet message board troll like me if a liable suit was initiated. So if I were iSteve I would be vague on such matters and let the trolls handle the dirty work. Isn’t that what trolls are for?

  163. @Reg Cæsar
    Rural women are rarely lesbian but also rarely all that feminine either. The two can often be confused with each other. That chick in the back at the lumber outlet could have a husband and two or three kids.

    I told a coworker once farm girls tended to come in two varieties: you had the stereotypical “farmer’s daughter” who could stir dead men in her little sundresses or short denim shorts………or you had little men who wore boots, jeans, big belt buckles and plaid shirts. They were basically the son their father never had or the farmhand their husband couldn’t afford.

  164. @MikeatMikedotMike
    I'm not sure about the T levels; it's a plausible theory but I've never seen any data.

    As afar as not being able to get a man - I don't know. There are some pretty desperate men in this world and one thing about black men is they seem to have no trepidation about scooping up the 1's through 5's white women. To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It's more about companionship I'd gather. This observation seems to discredit the "born that way" theory for women at least, as that male homosexuals are largely obnoxiously horny, and will fuck a knot hole in a tree stump if no better offer immediately presents itself. Then again, higher T levels usually produce a higher sex drive in both men and women, so maybe T levels in lesbians aren't significantly higher.

    My theory, based on what I've read and heard around the sisterhood first hand, is that having a terrible relationship with their father correlates greatly with lesbianism. Not all of course. There's also no question that women who are legitimately strict lesbians are 95% soft 5 and below. My sister in law has always been the best looking lesbian I've ever met personally, and she's maybe a 7.

    Three articles on Unz.com regarding lesbians, two by Steve:

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/why-lesbians-arent-gay/?highlight=lesbians

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/world-war-t-never-underestimate-the-more-masculine-minds-urge-for-dominance/?highlight=lesbians

    https://www.unz.com/article/does-female-equality-mean-more-lesbians/?highlight=lesbians

    I think that there different reasons for different women. Some lesbians man-hating radical feminists or fear men due to rape or molestation or simply mistrust men.

    Issues with dad might cause problems, too. I’ve read that early feminists in general were saddled with lousy dads or husbands. Instead of thinking, “I have a lousy dad” or “I have a lousy husband,” they think, “men are lousy.” Leftists frequently project on society or a segment of society their own personal misfortunes or failings.

    There was a tv show 30 years ago called “Kate and Allie” about two divorcees living and raising their kids together. Practical solution to their situation. Single ladies might live together and either aren’t interested in (re-)marrying or no longer look. Who knows what they do behind closed doors? We live in a sex-drenched society and often can’t imagine two close friends of the same or opposite sex living together and not getting physically intimate.

  165. @Wilkey

    She must have noticed as far back as high school that the boys who are good at sports attract a better class of girl than the girls who are good at sports attract of boys...The girls there (all slim and pretty) had obviously spent hours in front of the mirror on makeup, hair and jewellery. Their clothes were – er – minimalist and only just decent.
     
    Slutty clothing and eons of time spent in front of the mirror != "a better class of girl"

    “Slutty clothing and eons of time spent in front of the mirror != “a better class of girl””

    To an 18 year old boy it is, no doubt at all. These were good looking girls. Most of them will have grown out of all the mirror time in college, no doubt.

  166. @Steve Sailer
    Annika Sorenstam was the best woman golfer of all time in 2003. Why? Because she was juicing like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, that's why. But still she retired at age 38 to get married and immediately have two kids.

    Good for her.

    “Annika Sorenstam was the best woman golfer of all time in 2003. Why? Because she was juicing like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, that’s why.”

    Where is your specific evidence other than suspicion, Mr. Sailer?

    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
  167. @Barnard
    The LPGA didn't start testing for anything until 2008, which was coincidentally or not, Sorenstam's last year on the tour. She may have been at a point where she was ready to have kids and was at a natural point where her skill level would naturally start to decline. Or she might have wanted to quit before she got caught using banned substances. I don't think we will ever know.

    “I don’t think we will ever know.”

    Right, but when Mr. Sailer says unequivocally she was on the juice without any proof to back up the claim, he is indicating that he DOES know.

  168. Anonymous[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @the one they call Desanex
    If we’re ever going to have a man vs. woman MMA fight, we’ve got a good chance for it right now: a superfight between men’s 125- and 135-lb. champ Henry Cejudo and women’s 135- and 145-lb. champ Amanda Nunes. They could meet in the middle at 135. Nunes is no Caster Semenya, but she seems like a very high-t gal, so she might have a real chance. Cejudo has expressed an interest in the fight.
    https://usatmmajunkie.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/henry-cejudo-amanda-nunes-tbc.jpg?w=640

    Well, in her case, her physical strength and aggressiveness are closer to that of a male her size rather than a female. Amanda Nunes is pretty much a man in a dress – and I am saying this metaphorically, since Nunes is not the kind of chick to wear dresses. I am sure that Nunes’ clitoris is probably the size of a penis. And I don’t mean that do say that she took steroids, but rather that, as you observed, she probably has abnormally high levels of androgens for a woman. Well, in all fairness to Nunes, at least she was born a woman, with ovaries and all. She is not literally a man who put on a dress and decided that he is actually a woman.

  169. Anonymous[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Well, it is roller derby.

    Generally speaking, women who like men don't like doing violence to other women. It's kind of paradoxical when you think about it, but not thinking about things is today's requirement.

    Heterosexual women might not like to punch other women(or people in general), but they are extremely nasty verbally and psychologically to women they see as competitors for the men they fancy. Teenage girls are *horrible* to each other. Much, much nastier than boys. Like Gore Vidal used to say, never underestimate the will and vicousness of a woman in love.

  170. Mia Hamm is a perfect example of female hypergamy in action. She was originally married to her college boyfriend, who was a pilot in the military. When she first because famous this was an asset for her; being married to a military guy made her look like an All-American girl and played up the patriotic angle. But alas, he was still just an ordinary guy and not worthy of his wife’s newfound fame and success. So she ended up divorcing him and marrying a high-status professional athlete.

  171. @Thea
    Hingis lamented that the top men all get to date their choice of younger models while the top women have a much smaller pool of desirable suitors.

    A pro tennis player man was her ideal first choice but the pretty model got him.

    Hingis married a handsome professional equestrian dude six years yer junior, presumably in great shape – then (“allegedly”) cheated on him – (“allegedly”) a lot. She also bore him no children.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359951/Martina-Hingis-estranged-husband-Thibault-Hutin-says-shes-court-cheater.html

    Most traditional women would probably have been thrilled to land this guy and been loyal, birthing him a passel of beautiful children.

    I wouldn’t shed many tears for her complaints.

  172. @stillCARealist
    With strict sobriety, no woman ever engages in homosexuality. All the experimentation and initiation takes place under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Women's bodies are gross in ways no man could ever understand. Yes, men are gross in their own ways, but that's part of the package and they don't try to conceal it.

    Also, you get nearly any lesbian drunk and get her laughing with a cute, sweet guy... well, she's going to be straight that evening. Guaranteed. I've seen it happen.

    “With strict sobriety, no woman ever engages in homosexuality”

    I have to respectfully disagree with this. I find it hard to believe every woman who identifies as straight who has had a lesbian romp was drunk. Some are just curious, some are just garden variety flakes.

    “Also, you get nearly any lesbian drunk and get her laughing with a cute, sweet guy… well, she’s going to be straight that evening. Guaranteed. I’ve seen it happen.”

    This I very much agree with. I think the more butch lesbians, the denim and near-crewcut crowd are pretty committed to women. But the more femme lesbians? The ones who you’d joke “must be the woman of the relationship”?

    Like you said, even if they don’t date men they have trysts with men far more than people think.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    I base my gross generalizations on personal experience and observation. All my friends who lost their virginity before marriage (I guess that's nearly everybody) did so under the influence. The women I've known who've had lesbian experiences all got started with drugs and alcohol. Remember to never disentangle those two poisons when referencing sexual behavior. I suppose there must be exceptions.
  173. Women don’t belong in sports outside of ones already segregated to them like ballet. Women who play non-designated sports are by rule degenerate in one way or another (homosexuals, sluts, racemixers, druggies). They also either have degenerate mothers or cuck fathers. The latter especially if they either had no sons or had disappointing sons.

  174. CMC says:

    There’s might be a Steve Sailer Affordable Family Formation Land Use theory tie-in.

    The fields of play in Track & Field are relatively cheap. How many top speed sprints does a kid have in them in one day? 4? 5? Top throws? And it’s gotta be even less for the middle and longer distance races. So one track and some field or streets around it for warmups can churn lots of kids through over the course of 5-6 hours. Like 20 teams. How much soccer field acreage would you need for something similar? Volleyball? Hockey/figure skating?!?

    It’s probably not the biggest reason —in my mind the bigger reason is the anti fraternization with the enemy vs build internal team spirit dynamic or vibe —important in a lot of team sports but less so in track (or cross country) because, let’s face it, while you might push or elbow someone in one of those middle distance crowded situations, you’re not going to actually trip someone on purpose. It’s just not done. So who cares? Fraternize with the enemy. Meet the kids from the other school, etc.

  175. @Corn
    “With strict sobriety, no woman ever engages in homosexuality”

    I have to respectfully disagree with this. I find it hard to believe every woman who identifies as straight who has had a lesbian romp was drunk. Some are just curious, some are just garden variety flakes.

    “Also, you get nearly any lesbian drunk and get her laughing with a cute, sweet guy… well, she’s going to be straight that evening. Guaranteed. I’ve seen it happen.”

    This I very much agree with. I think the more butch lesbians, the denim and near-crewcut crowd are pretty committed to women. But the more femme lesbians? The ones who you’d joke “must be the woman of the relationship”?

    Like you said, even if they don’t date men they have trysts with men far more than people think.

    I base my gross generalizations on personal experience and observation. All my friends who lost their virginity before marriage (I guess that’s nearly everybody) did so under the influence. The women I’ve known who’ve had lesbian experiences all got started with drugs and alcohol. Remember to never disentangle those two poisons when referencing sexual behavior. I suppose there must be exceptions.

  176. Coming from the soccer environment, and thus only opining on that sport, I’d argue it attracts lesbians due to the team-sport aspect naturally tending to girly-clique-forming, where top bull lesbians appear more often to lead the group. (with males around in a supervisory role at least, the more motherly types keep the group of females together, while also still collaborating with the community; the lesbian cliques meanwhile tend to highly defensive isolation).
    Add to that the higher physicality of soccer (while still remaining more accessible to women than other football codes), the drawback of long hair and dolling up for female soccer players (enabled by pc loving europoofs at fifa), and that soccer-loving browns still rightfully believe in the patriarchy and women not playing sports.
    thus you got female soccer as a let off valve for frustrated 2nd-3rd world lesbian women; and in the 1st world, frustrated ugly white lesbians + enabling cute sjwhite friends (Alex Morgan, in music Taylor Swift). heck, just look at the uniforms, they are meant to NOT show tits or curves. in fact, one time Nike tried designing a more feminine uniform for the female US team, and the more important bull dyke players recoiled in disgust. now they wear the exact same clothing as the mediocre male team.

    furthermore, the anglo-wasp-western-(((cosmopolitan))) tradition of letting women do whatever so they allow men to have their own space, does not help matters, as it has backfired into letting women flood male spaces, and letting males be mediocre so long as they are nice to women (again, see US male soccer team)…

  177. @MikeatMikedotMike
    I'm not sure about the T levels; it's a plausible theory but I've never seen any data.

    As afar as not being able to get a man - I don't know. There are some pretty desperate men in this world and one thing about black men is they seem to have no trepidation about scooping up the 1's through 5's white women. To your point, many lesbian couples are not sexual, like, at all. It's more about companionship I'd gather. This observation seems to discredit the "born that way" theory for women at least, as that male homosexuals are largely obnoxiously horny, and will fuck a knot hole in a tree stump if no better offer immediately presents itself. Then again, higher T levels usually produce a higher sex drive in both men and women, so maybe T levels in lesbians aren't significantly higher.

    My theory, based on what I've read and heard around the sisterhood first hand, is that having a terrible relationship with their father correlates greatly with lesbianism. Not all of course. There's also no question that women who are legitimately strict lesbians are 95% soft 5 and below. My sister in law has always been the best looking lesbian I've ever met personally, and she's maybe a 7.

    I’m not sure about the T levels;

    The T-theory promoters around here are really getting ridiculous. It’s important to remember that a young, healthy woman is going to have testosterone levels that are about 1/10th that of a frail, moribund, 80-year-old man. There is no amount of non-artificial testosterone that is going to make the slightest difference in a woman, behaviorally or physiologically.

    Also, the levels of testosterone in a normal man are going to cycle by several hundred ng/dL each day, so speaking about high-T men and low-T men does not make any sense, either.

  178. @anonymous
    "Serena Williams is an attractive muscular female. Most men like that look. Serena Williams has a feminine style"

    I don't know any white men who think that Serena Williams is an attractive nor any that like her look. You must be black and then I would encourage you because she's your own kind.

    I don’t know any white men who think that Serena Williams is an attractive nor any that like her look. You must be black and then I would encourage you because she’s your own kind.

    I am a white man and I think she is quite glamorous when she is dressed up and not in tennis mode. I have certainly bedded women equal or less attractive in my time. Men like variety. In Germany Serena would have Caucasian men all over her, and she has had plenty of past lovers of various races, including Europeans.

    Although my first choice is tall, curvy women, it is always nice to have a bit of variety too.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    ROFL. Gosh, you gay guys are hilarious when you're in the closet.
  179. @MikeatMikedotMike
    "Softball tends to be aggressively lesbian, although straight girls are allowed to signal they don’t want to be involved in all the lesbian softball romantic drama by wearing bows in their hair."

    I"m still waiting for Steve to qualify this statement. I have two daughters that have played a combination of 12 years in softball. They've done inhouse, travel, middle school, and high school ball and I haven't seen any evidence that more softball players are lesbian. The organization my younger daughter is with recruits the local NAIA university's softball team players to coach and provide lessons, and all but one are hair-to-the-butt, yoga pants wearing cuties.

    I would say that most of the grown women coaching softball are lesbians, but almost all of those women are 6-12th grade teachers. In fact the biggest concentration of lesbians I have observed is in the teaching profession.

    I was also, coincidentally, at my lesbian sister in law's 50th birthday party over the weekend. I have had more interaction with my SIL's circle of sisterhood than I care to, but one observation, other than 95% of them being unattractive and borderline hostile, is that they are not athletes. In fact with all the canes, braces, and walking boots I saw, it looked like a malingerer's convention or an obesity anonymous meeting. .

    obesity anonymous meeting

    This made me laugh.

  180. @RadicalCenter
    I took two of our children to the LA Derby Dolls and, yes, I was clueless enough not to know of their, and the sport’s, lesbian reputation. It wasn’t subtle.

    Luckily the children were very young and didn’t pick up on it. I invited a friend and his girlfriend, and she remarked that she was getting ogled obviously by other women. Best line of the night was hers: “this time I’d feel safer using the men’s bathroom.” LOL.

    I chatted in a friendly way with some stereotypically dykey women behind us and they weren’t too unfriendly, but did not seem comfortable either. The general atmosphere was odd, that’s all, and I’d never bring any older girl. The announcer at one point remarked, while doing kind of play by play, about how nice one player’s legs were and how she’d like to talk to HER afterwards — gross and out of place, as it would have been if a normal person had said it about a player of the opposite sex.

    Derby Dolls is one of those little experiences it is funny to have had, but I wouldn’t bother again.

    Without the pervert vibe, it could be a fun thing to see for a change of pace once in a while. The Dolls use a banked track and thus skate at a faster pace.

    The Dolls use a banked track and thus skate at a faster pace.

    When Roller Derby was TV, all of the tracks were banked. Did this change?

  181. I don’t know if it was a rhetorical device or an editing error, but paragraphs 8 and 10 are the same.

    Florence Griffith-Joyner, Jackie Joyner-Kersee

    As their names imply, they were sisters-in-law, with Al Joyner being their linkage. Joyner won the triple jump in LA in 84, but he was the beneficiary of the boycott, as his 56′ 7½” was less impressive than the Soviet winner in 80 by 3½ inches.

    As for Marion Jones, she married her college track coach who was 6’1″ 330.

  182. Fairly simple: sports that require or strongly reward a male body or brain.

    Hitting a baseball is famous for being one of the toughest tasks in all of sport . And men have a huge neural advantages here: “Results showed that targeting accuracy for slow and fast moving balls was significantly better in males compared to females…. evidence of a sex-related bias in processing objects versus movement.” (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0032238

    More: “Men could detect quick-changing details from afar, and could track thinner, faster-flashing bars within a bank of blinking lights. The team associates this evolutionary advantage down to neuron development in the visual cortex, which is boosted by male hormones. Testosterone means that males are born with 25% more neurons in this brain region than women.”

    https://scitechdaily.com/females-distinguish-colors-better-while-men-excel-at-tracking-fast-moving-objects/

    Basketball is a sport of sheer size and physicality, where the advantage of extra testosterone are obvious. Same could be said for field hockey, roller derby, ice hockey, basically any contact or fairly violent sport.

    Straightness is the norm in female sports that don’t reward a strongly male brain or body. (Can’t imagine the WNFL or a deadlifting competition would look too straight, while the grace of golf or gymnastics or sports of pure coordination and aerobic ability are basically compatible with femininity.)

  183. @Jonathan Mason

    I don’t know any white men who think that Serena Williams is an attractive nor any that like her look. You must be black and then I would encourage you because she’s your own kind.
     
    I am a white man and I think she is quite glamorous when she is dressed up and not in tennis mode. I have certainly bedded women equal or less attractive in my time. Men like variety. In Germany Serena would have Caucasian men all over her, and she has had plenty of past lovers of various races, including Europeans.

    Although my first choice is tall, curvy women, it is always nice to have a bit of variety too.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/15/68/cf15685cca7f5d28ad3387a304b37d4a.jpg

    ROFL. Gosh, you gay guys are hilarious when you’re in the closet.

  184. @Prosa123
    Golf and tennis are completely objective sports yet neither one attracts many lesbians on the pro level. Same for track and field.

    If you ever want to argue that tennis is a “completely objective sport”, please speak with John McEnroe first:

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