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A New Conspiracy Theory About the CIA's 1999 Bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade
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The U.S. bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Serbia/Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War on May 7th, 1999 is puzzling. Wikipedia notes:

Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) director George Tenet testified before a congressional committee that the bombing was the only one in the campaign organized and directed by his agency, and that the CIA had identified the wrong coordinates for a Yugoslav military target on the same street.

Was it just an accident? Perhaps. As they say, maybe the Deep State is really just the Derp State, so giant screwups like blowing up a Great Power’s embassy happen.

But the Chinese have never accepted American explanations that it was all just an accident.

My original conspiracy theory was that the bombing was intentional and that the CIA had blown up the Chinese embassy because the Chinese had purchased from the Serbs the only Stealth Fighter ever shot down in combat (an impressive feat of arms by the undergunned Serbs). Maybe the Serbs sold the wreckage to the Chinese to study for reverse engineering purposes and the Chinese had it stored in their embassy?

Since then I’ve seen people claim that the Chinese and/or Russians got some of the parts. But when I read more detailed accounts, it appears local peasants dismantled much of the wreckage for souvenirs and eventually the Serbs got themselves organized enough to put what was left in a museum. I couldn’t find anything to support my “Stealth Fighter wreckage housed in the Chinese Embassy” theory.

A friend told me a better conspiracy theory about the Chinese Embassy bombing recently. He points to the release three weeks later on May 25, 1999 of the long anticipated but little remembered Cox Commission Report on nuclear spying on the U.S. by China. The Report says:

The People’s Republic of China (PRC) has stolen design information on the United States’ most advanced thermonuclear weapons. The Select Committee judges that the PRC’s next generation of thermonuclear weapons, currently under development, will exploit elements of stolen U.S. design information. PRC penetration of our national nuclear weapons laboratories spans at least the past several decades and almost certainly continues today.

By the time, the Cox Report was issued, its moment had passed. Due to the bombing, the U.S. was now on the defensive and everybody was supposed to be nice to China to make up for it. This culminated a year later in Bill Clinton getting Congress to vote for permanent normalized trade relations with China, letting it join the WTO.

The permanent part turned out to be disastrous. American CEO’s had been wary of shutting down factories in the U.S. and committing to permanently outsourcing production to China when the low tariffs weren’t permanent. But when Congress and the President committed to permanent normalization, outsourcing quickly became a flood of manufacturing jobs moving from the U.S. to China.

So, here’s his conspiracy theory: maybe bombing the Chinese Embassy was the CIA’s way to keep pro-China globalism on track despite soon to be released evidence in the Cox Report that the Chinese were not our pals?

This is a little bit of a double bankshot conspiracy theory, but I kind of like it.

 
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  1. I worked in Congress at the time and remember the argument for PNTR is that increased trade and exposure to capitalism and American culture was sure to have a liberalizing effect on China. Whoops.

    • Replies: @houston 1992
    @Arclight

    I can recall Senator John Kerry MA explaining that the Chinese would sell us textiles and low end goods whereas we would export to them high tech, high value added products such as aerospace and semiconductors.

    Yup, and super-majorities of Blue-staters rate him and those who spout the party line a wise and learned man versus a backward evil man such as ,say, Pat Buchanan

    , @Kronos
    @Arclight

    It did heavily corrupt the Chinese government.

  2. Actually, over the years Peter Lee has published a whole series of articles on the Belgrade Embassy Bombing, totaling something like 15,000 words. I think he’s pretty persuasive that the bombing was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC. In fact, I vaguely remember that one American military commander got careless and bragged about the accuracy of the bombing attack to some journalist. Here’s Lee’s summary article and also a couple of his longest:

    https://www.unz.com/plee/no-the-ccp-has-not-forgotten-how-the-us-bombed-the-chinese-embassy-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/why-china-hates-satellite-guided-munitions-part-1-the-bombing-of-the-chinese-embassy-in-belgrade-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/how-it-all-began-the-belgrade-embassy-bombing/

    Basically, on all sorts of these “major historical incidents” the evidence often seems to point overwhelmingly in one direction, but the fact that the MSM said “Nope!” was generally treated as decisive, not least by myself at the time.

    However, once we recognize that the MSM really doesn’t have much credibility and probably always had much less than we ever believed, we quickly see that we were just fooled about all those important matters.

    • Agree: Stan d Mute
    • Replies: @Justvisiting
    @Ron Unz

    Serious folks at the time knew it was intentional--but it was never clear why it was done.

    I look forward to the comments on this thread.

    Replies: @Tom Verso

    , @Anonymous
    @Ron Unz

    I agree with Peter Lee’s assessment that the reason was China was passing intel to Serbia.


    ...that the United States had deliberately targeted the embassy in order to remove a key rebroadcast station directing the military activities of Slobodan Milosevic’s forces in their struggle to resist NATO forces.

     

    The targeting of the Chinese embassy was intentional.

    According to the Observer, the behind the scenes U.S. attitude to the embassy bombing was: Mission Accomplished.

    British, Canadian and French air targeteers rounded on an American colonel on the morning of May 8. Angrily they denounced the “cock-up”. The US colonel was relaxed. “Bullshit,” he replied to the complaints. “That was great targeting … we put three JDAMs down into the (military] attache’s office and took out the exact room we wanted …
     

     
    , @Yngvar
    @Ron Unz


    ..was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC..
     
    This isn't true at all. NATO had killed off, in the initial strikes, any communication stations the Serbs had. A lone radio signal station was identified as sending out messages to the Serb military. It was duly and promptly bombed. Unfortunately the transmitter turned out to be based in Chinese embassy. NATO apologized, instead of saying eff you!

    This was before the age of God Emperor Trump so you can imaging the horror.
    , @Paul Jolliffe
    @Ron Unz

    I agree.

    And since Pearl Harbor Day is right around the corner, here's a link Commander Arther McCollum's October 1940 memo urging Washington to take eight steps to induce Japan to strike the U.S. first, then in his words: "so much the better."

    FDR implemented all eight recommendations, Pearl Harbor was attacked, and Admiral Husband Kimmel was made the scapegoat.

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/McCollum_memorandum#/media/File:McCollum_memo_Page4.png

    To this day, the idea that FDR was almost certainly complicit in the killing of 2,400 Americans on December 7, 1941 is something the MSM will not touch.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Paul Rise
    @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz - Years ago, a contact of mine involved in counterespionage efforts told me that the consensus among his peers is that the US was tricked into targeting the embassy by a Serbian warlord/career criminal named Arkan. Arkan was assassinated several months after - my friend said if Arkan's rivals had not done it, the US would have gotten around to it as soon as they had plausible deniability or whatever.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

  3. The one I heard at the time was that the bombing was retaliation for the Chinese giving the Serbs the information and technique needed to shoot down the fighter. Of course, it was my Chinese dry cleaner who told me that. No kidding. He said the method involved setting up a system of two or three microwave transmitters, not much different from cell phones, creating a field through which the plane flew. You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.

    Steve’s hypotheses is better, even though he probably can’t launder shirts worth a damn. His friend’s idea is perhaps plausible. One thing is certain, the changes in trade that perhaps resulted in part from the event are among the worst things ever to have happened to the United States and the Western World. Of course, I can’t properly wash cotton business shirts or figure out geopolitics and international trade, so I am probably wrong.

    • Replies: @reactionry
    @Buzz Mohawk

    USSR Satellite States Freed About 30 Years Ago, So Wot's Next Kids?

    I have no reason to doubt the details of your anecdote,
    although those of Thomas Friedman and his global network of taxi drivers seem at least questionable. OTOH, your dry cleaner might have been feeding you disinformation as part of a Carbon Tet Offensive.

    Also see - Chinese cash contributions to (Bill) Clinton campaign: No Tickee, No Washee Money?
    See also - U.S. gives to Chinese technology so that it can better launch US satellites - and now the US is fast becoming a mere Chinese satellite - and Democommierat & Republicuck politicians and businessmen - greedy, corrupt, thuggish, slavish satraps.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Of course, it was my Chinese dry cleaner who told me that. No kidding. He said the method involved setting up a system of two or three microwave transmitters, not much different from cell phones, creating a field through which the plane flew. You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.
     
    That may not be so crazy. I don't know much about Stealth technology (just what I read in Ben Rich's book on the Skunkworks), but I'd guess that the so-called "Stealth Fighter" (it's really a bomber) was designed to be nearly invisible to mono-static radar - but it's radar cross-section might be a lot higher for bi-static radars, meaning those radars where the transmitter and receiver are not co-located.

    Ancient Chinese Secret, huh?

    Replies: @Lurker

    , @Twodees Partain
    @Buzz Mohawk

    " You know you have to believe your dry cleaner."

    Except when he tells you that he really tried to get the coffee stain out of your favorite short, or that you forgot to ask for heavy starch. They are usually lying about those two things.

  4. @Ron Unz
    Actually, over the years Peter Lee has published a whole series of articles on the Belgrade Embassy Bombing, totaling something like 15,000 words. I think he's pretty persuasive that the bombing was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC. In fact, I vaguely remember that one American military commander got careless and bragged about the accuracy of the bombing attack to some journalist. Here's Lee's summary article and also a couple of his longest:

    https://www.unz.com/plee/no-the-ccp-has-not-forgotten-how-the-us-bombed-the-chinese-embassy-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/why-china-hates-satellite-guided-munitions-part-1-the-bombing-of-the-chinese-embassy-in-belgrade-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/how-it-all-began-the-belgrade-embassy-bombing/

    Basically, on all sorts of these "major historical incidents" the evidence often seems to point overwhelmingly in one direction, but the fact that the MSM said "Nope!" was generally treated as decisive, not least by myself at the time.

    However, once we recognize that the MSM really doesn't have much credibility and probably always had much less than we ever believed, we quickly see that we were just fooled about all those important matters.

    Replies: @Justvisiting, @Anonymous, @Yngvar, @Paul Jolliffe, @Paul Rise

    Serious folks at the time knew it was intentional–but it was never clear why it was done.

    I look forward to the comments on this thread.

    • Replies: @Tom Verso
    @Justvisiting

    Some years ago I heard an interview with an American Ph.D type who was some sort of military liaison to the Chinese Army Schools. I can't remember any of the specifics except one thing that he said while discussing Chinese military strategies.

    "They believe in striking deep into the enemies supply depots and bases. That's why they could not understand why the Yugoslavs did not use their missiles to strike the American base in Italy - as they were advising them"

    AS THEY WERE ADVISING THEM!

    In short the Chinese were engaged in the Yugoslav War and it is reasonable that the Americans would attack their lines of communication in their embassy.

  5. Steve, your theory is the best I have heard. By far.

    It makes a lot more sense than the more common theories.

    The Deep State exists to benefit wealthy individuals and corporations that profit from the military industrial complex. Many of these same wealthy individuals and corporations have benefited from China entering the WTO.

    As for the “stealth fighter”, I guess it wasn’t really so stealth, if the Serbs could shoot it down using technology that was decades old. It “worked” in the sense that it generated income for defense contractors, and jobs in the districts of influential politicians.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Not Raul

    The Serbs figured out that the Stealth Fighter wasn't in stealth mode during the seconds it was opening and closing its bomb bay door and they managed to do what needed to be done during that short window. An impressive feat by Colonel Dani and his boys:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

    Replies: @Lurker, @Anonymous, @Eagle Eye

    , @Anonymous
    @Not Raul

    Apparently it loses stealth in the rain.

    Did they not think to test it somewhere besides Arizona?

  6. So, here’s his conspiracy theory: maybe bombing the Chinese Embassy was the CIA’s way to keep pro-China globalism on track despite soon to be released evidence in the Cox Report that the Chinese were not our pals?

    Either that or some spook had a bad case of the Kung Pao Fu.

  7. It was payback for all the illegal campaign cash the Red Chinese had given the Clintons for the ’96 election. Some things y0u don’t have to over-think…

  8. Anonymous[236] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ron Unz
    Actually, over the years Peter Lee has published a whole series of articles on the Belgrade Embassy Bombing, totaling something like 15,000 words. I think he's pretty persuasive that the bombing was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC. In fact, I vaguely remember that one American military commander got careless and bragged about the accuracy of the bombing attack to some journalist. Here's Lee's summary article and also a couple of his longest:

    https://www.unz.com/plee/no-the-ccp-has-not-forgotten-how-the-us-bombed-the-chinese-embassy-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/why-china-hates-satellite-guided-munitions-part-1-the-bombing-of-the-chinese-embassy-in-belgrade-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/how-it-all-began-the-belgrade-embassy-bombing/

    Basically, on all sorts of these "major historical incidents" the evidence often seems to point overwhelmingly in one direction, but the fact that the MSM said "Nope!" was generally treated as decisive, not least by myself at the time.

    However, once we recognize that the MSM really doesn't have much credibility and probably always had much less than we ever believed, we quickly see that we were just fooled about all those important matters.

    Replies: @Justvisiting, @Anonymous, @Yngvar, @Paul Jolliffe, @Paul Rise

    I agree with Peter Lee’s assessment that the reason was China was passing intel to Serbia.

    …that the United States had deliberately targeted the embassy in order to remove a key rebroadcast station directing the military activities of Slobodan Milosevic’s forces in their struggle to resist NATO forces.

    The targeting of the Chinese embassy was intentional.

    According to the Observer, the behind the scenes U.S. attitude to the embassy bombing was: Mission Accomplished.

    British, Canadian and French air targeteers rounded on an American colonel on the morning of May 8. Angrily they denounced the “cock-up”. The US colonel was relaxed. “Bullshit,” he replied to the complaints. “That was great targeting … we put three JDAMs down into the (military] attache’s office and took out the exact room we wanted …

  9. The problem with the theory is that it supposes that the CIA is run by extremely bright people – I’m skeptic of any conspiracy theory where the villains are supposed to play 3D chess against their opponents

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • LOL: Twodees Partain
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Andy

    Not only this, but it's needlessly convoluted, while next to a self-explanatorily simple alternative (the Chinese were all but an enemy of the US and we reminded them what happens to such people). We were angry enough without Stealth souvenirs at the Chinese for failing to join our moralistic larp, let alone remaining openly connected to the New Nazis, and had a distorted sense of our influence after Yeltsin's Collapsed Russia abandoned their historical ally in the opening days. I think that, had the French decided to reject NATO and maintain normal relations with Serbia, France would have also had an "accident."
    Also how is bombing them supposed to do what now even as other things do other things? At first the Cox commission made me hate them, but then there was this bombing, thus wtf I love globalism now? This, from the people who sneer and look down their noses at conspiracy theories like "maybe the government lied" or "maybe the bureaucrat is corrupt"?

    Replies: @Andy

    , @Kronos
    @Andy

    It’s still seems kinda weird to bomb a foreign embassy due to espionage. Wouldn’t they punish the Chinese via more subtle/devastating means via hacking something important? The Chinese embassy bombing angered the Chinese more than scared them. I guess the US military did a superb job bombing the building, but it was the wrong one. Thus,

    Derp State: 1

    Deep State: 0

    https://youtu.be/b-ogjN9ZXFo

    Keep in mind this is like handing a propaganda boon to a potential strategic rival.

  10. As conspiracy theories go, Buzz gets the prize on this one. I can personally swear I have never been lied to by a Chinese dry cleaner. QED

  11. @Not Raul
    Steve, your theory is the best I have heard. By far.

    It makes a lot more sense than the more common theories.

    The Deep State exists to benefit wealthy individuals and corporations that profit from the military industrial complex. Many of these same wealthy individuals and corporations have benefited from China entering the WTO.

    As for the "stealth fighter", I guess it wasn't really so stealth, if the Serbs could shoot it down using technology that was decades old. It "worked" in the sense that it generated income for defense contractors, and jobs in the districts of influential politicians.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    The Serbs figured out that the Stealth Fighter wasn’t in stealth mode during the seconds it was opening and closing its bomb bay door and they managed to do what needed to be done during that short window. An impressive feat by Colonel Dani and his boys:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Steve Sailer

    Strictly speaking a stealth fighter doesn't have a stealth 'mode'. It's stealthiness is largely a property of it's physical structure, it's shape. It's stealthy - has a very low radar signature - all the time, whether it's parked or flying. It can't be switched on and off.

    The stealthy configuration of the aircraft is altered (compromised) by eg the wheels being down or the bomb bay is open (as in the Serbian incident). Though still less than a conventional aircraft of roughly similar proportions like the F-15.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Amerimutt Golems, @Mr Mox

    , @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    It's becoming more and more obvious that stealth has a limited future, because the basic idea of how to locate it by RF is well in the literature.

    Essentially, and to oversimplify, conventional radar transmits and receives a signal intermittently on a duty cycle so that it has a transmit and receive cycle in line with how long it takes for the sent signal to come back.

    The stealth aircraft uses geometric shapes and radar absorbent materials to keep from returning a distinct return pulse. But it doe not attenuate nor absorb the RF at the same rate as does an equivalent chunk of atmosphere. If a continuous RF signal is sent at the aircraft, the standing wave ratio of the transmitted to reflected signal will be different than if it were directed into open space.


    The problem is that it isn't very different, and at any distance, the airplane takes up a very tiny chunk of the sky. The CW RF beam has to be very narrow, and it has to scan a lot of sky very fast, and the change is not very much. So the signal to noise ratio is pretty crummy, and there is a lot of variance in the atmosphere with pressure, temperature, water vapor content, et al. But the stealth airplane has a possible range of physical dimensions, a range of possible speeds-it has to fly over its stall speed and below its maximum speed, and helpfully it's the fastest object of anywhere near its size in any given chunk of sky (except for nonstealthy airplanes which can be painted with regular radar, and maybe large artillery shells or a re-entering ICBM, in which case you have other things to worry about).

    It takes a huge amount of real time computational power to pick the fly shit out of the pepper, but computational power is now very cheap. This is probably the reason the USAF is flying a few Nighthawks in the Nevada desert:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hONI3ztajb4

    Replies: @animalogic, @Alden, @Eagle Eye

    , @Eagle Eye
    @Steve Sailer


    The Serbs figured out that the Stealth Fighter wasn’t in stealth mode during the seconds it was opening and closing its bomb bay door and they managed to do what needed to be done during that short window. An impressive feat by Colonel Dani and his boys ...
     
    Undoubtedly an impressive military feat, and a useful reminder that stealth technology no longer works.

    The initial detection of the F-117A apparently used an interesting technique developed in Czechoslovakia: the TAMARA "passive radar" analyzes how strong radio signals - probably from standard TV transmitters - are disturbed or reflected by a flying object.

    The TAMARA system itself does not send out any radar pulses and is thus very hard to detect, unlike conventional bi-static radar where the radar pulses are transmitted from the same location that receives and analyzes the echoes. The actual shooting down of the Nighthawk probably used conventional radar.

    https://www.456fis.org/F-117_SHOT_DOWN.htm

    The story about the bomb bay door sounds technically correct but may be chaff put out by the Pentagon to distract from the existence of TAMARA (and much more sophisticated systems along the same lines available in 2019). With sophisticated passive radar, expensive stealth bomber programs become pointless. The loss of Pentagon stealth programs would pose a grave risk to many precious careers national security.

  12. @Andy
    The problem with the theory is that it supposes that the CIA is run by extremely bright people - I'm skeptic of any conspiracy theory where the villains are supposed to play 3D chess against their opponents

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Kronos

    Not only this, but it’s needlessly convoluted, while next to a self-explanatorily simple alternative (the Chinese were all but an enemy of the US and we reminded them what happens to such people). We were angry enough without Stealth souvenirs at the Chinese for failing to join our moralistic larp, let alone remaining openly connected to the New Nazis, and had a distorted sense of our influence after Yeltsin’s Collapsed Russia abandoned their historical ally in the opening days. I think that, had the French decided to reject NATO and maintain normal relations with Serbia, France would have also had an “accident.”
    Also how is bombing them supposed to do what now even as other things do other things? At first the Cox commission made me hate them, but then there was this bombing, thus wtf I love globalism now? This, from the people who sneer and look down their noses at conspiracy theories like “maybe the government lied” or “maybe the bureaucrat is corrupt”?

    • Replies: @Andy
    @J.Ross

    I agree, Occam's razor should also apply to conspiracy theories: a simpler conspiracy theory is probably more likely that a needlessly convoluted one

  13. @Ron Unz
    Actually, over the years Peter Lee has published a whole series of articles on the Belgrade Embassy Bombing, totaling something like 15,000 words. I think he's pretty persuasive that the bombing was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC. In fact, I vaguely remember that one American military commander got careless and bragged about the accuracy of the bombing attack to some journalist. Here's Lee's summary article and also a couple of his longest:

    https://www.unz.com/plee/no-the-ccp-has-not-forgotten-how-the-us-bombed-the-chinese-embassy-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/why-china-hates-satellite-guided-munitions-part-1-the-bombing-of-the-chinese-embassy-in-belgrade-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/how-it-all-began-the-belgrade-embassy-bombing/

    Basically, on all sorts of these "major historical incidents" the evidence often seems to point overwhelmingly in one direction, but the fact that the MSM said "Nope!" was generally treated as decisive, not least by myself at the time.

    However, once we recognize that the MSM really doesn't have much credibility and probably always had much less than we ever believed, we quickly see that we were just fooled about all those important matters.

    Replies: @Justvisiting, @Anonymous, @Yngvar, @Paul Jolliffe, @Paul Rise

    ..was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC..

    This isn’t true at all. NATO had killed off, in the initial strikes, any communication stations the Serbs had. A lone radio signal station was identified as sending out messages to the Serb military. It was duly and promptly bombed. Unfortunately the transmitter turned out to be based in Chinese embassy. NATO apologized, instead of saying eff you!

    This was before the age of God Emperor Trump so you can imaging the horror.

  14. Fair play to the Serbs on the shoot down but I think if there are enough bullets, shells and missiles flying through the air, sooner or later, even a plane like the F-117 is going to find it’s luck running out.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Lurker

    The sky is big and bullets are small.

    Replies: @Lurker

  15. Stealth is an overhyped technology, IMO. What it really does is just lower the political cost of bombing third world countries.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    @songbird

    Brilliant comment, and true.

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @songbird

    "Stealth is an overhyped technology."

    And disappointing. When I think of "stealth" in a tactical context my addled brain wanders to "cloaked", and then to the Romulans who have apparently perfected invisibility. It's disappointing that reality can't be more like Star Trek.

  16. Sorry to be ignorant of this topic, but why was the US bombing Serbia?

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @newrouter

    I have a better question: why do you hate freedom? The US can and should bomb whoever it wants to.

    Replies: @newrouter

    , @Kronos
    @newrouter

    I’ve tried to figure that out but to no avail. I was a little kid when that happened so I don’t recall any news coverage. (Though within 5 years they included it in elementary school history books.) The official story can be described as:

    Serbs made genocide + Neoliberals and Neocons think 1939 = US justification for US/NATO military intervention. I’ve heard around town that Bill Clinton supported it to take away news coverage of the Monica Lewinsky fiasco.

    Now the REAL question is:

    Was Monica Lewinsky a CIA asset?

    Replies: @reactionry, @Haha

    , @reactionry
    @newrouter

    My (sigh) hazy recollection of the time was that it had at least something to do with Serbia's claim on Kosovo, a province which had become overwhelmingly Muslim over a period of centuries due to conquests and differences in birthrates - and much more to do with the fact that commieratbastards such as the Clintons don't change the worldviews of their youth no matter how wealthy they later become. While the old Soviet Union was an embarrassment to those in the West who shared its depraved ideology, its passing presented them with somewhat new problems and opportunities.

    "Liberals/Neo-Liberals"(i.e. Leftist Totalitarians) hated the new Russia not because of its corruption and autocratic tendencies, but rather, because it was not totalitarian nor infused with a genocidal hatred of whites and Christians (of the non-"Liberation Theology" sort). It wasn't easy keeping any kind of track of the various religious and ethnic groups of Yugoslavia, but I recall thinking that while some groups which were predominately Roman Catholic in origin (Croats?) might seem more "Western" than those linked to the Eastern Orthodox groups (mostly Serbs - and yeah, I read a little of Huntington's stuff), that Clinton's animus against the Serbs was due to their backing by the Russians - and that Clinton was far more deeply anti-Western than was Russia after the fall of the USSR. I remember "rooting for the "Ruskies" many years before reading of the "Alt Right."

    Clinton's efforts to protect Bosnian Muslims were based, not upon the horrific atrocities committed by the Serbs (that is to say, a pretext for Clinton's actions), but instead upon a hatred of the West shared by most "New Democrats" and most Muslims.

    , @Lawyer Guy
    @newrouter

    I closely watched this war, as I waited for my years of reserve service to add up enough to get my letter. I had gotten activated for the Bosnia war a few years earlier, and expected to have to go again.

    Muslims and Christians had been equally held back from attacking each other, first by the Empire, then by the Soviet Puppet State leaders. They had a lot of religious/ethnic hate stored up. They let it go. Street warfare, death camps, rape camps, arty strikes on neighborhoods.

    Different outside countries took different sides. For reasons known only to Bill and Hill Clinton and their bright recent college grad staff, we picked the muslims.

    As part of that, the outside powers scrapped for key areas in the conflict zone, mostly by air strikes against locals and using shows of force to directly take the areas. Famously, Gen Clark, who the Clintons had picked as their Gen Powell, almost switched to a real ground conflict against the Russians for beating him to a major airport and road hub so they could support the Christians. Only a British commander's refusal to escalate on Clark's order saved the situation.

    This is a big part of the reason Clark's chances of Defense/SoS went away, and his chance of a Senate career, even though the Clinton's spent a fair amount of media favors to boost him

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pheasant

    , @Oikeamielinen
    @newrouter

    It may simply have been done for the sake of exercise and as a show of strength on the European continent. Effectiveness of fake news on Euro/NATO masses could be observed and obedience of their respective governments gauged.

    I remember myself as an ignorant dolt (no longer a child, either) sneering at the outrages committed by the Balkan beasts, duh.

  17. Similarly, in 2000 an American military plane had a “mid air collision” with a PLA jet and was forced to crash land in China and the pilots were taken hostage. Another oddly forgotten about event from that period

  18. I salute the brave men and women of CIA and trust their judgment on bombing the Chinese embassy or anything else.

    If you can read this comment, thank a teacher. If you’re reading it in English and not Serbo-Croatian, thank a CIA agent.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
  19. @J.Ross
    @Andy

    Not only this, but it's needlessly convoluted, while next to a self-explanatorily simple alternative (the Chinese were all but an enemy of the US and we reminded them what happens to such people). We were angry enough without Stealth souvenirs at the Chinese for failing to join our moralistic larp, let alone remaining openly connected to the New Nazis, and had a distorted sense of our influence after Yeltsin's Collapsed Russia abandoned their historical ally in the opening days. I think that, had the French decided to reject NATO and maintain normal relations with Serbia, France would have also had an "accident."
    Also how is bombing them supposed to do what now even as other things do other things? At first the Cox commission made me hate them, but then there was this bombing, thus wtf I love globalism now? This, from the people who sneer and look down their noses at conspiracy theories like "maybe the government lied" or "maybe the bureaucrat is corrupt"?

    Replies: @Andy

    I agree, Occam’s razor should also apply to conspiracy theories: a simpler conspiracy theory is probably more likely that a needlessly convoluted one

  20. ‘The Irishman’ Was the Worst Movie: De Niro Stunk, The Script Was A Lie, Think Cinema Waterboarding

  21. @newrouter
    Sorry to be ignorant of this topic, but why was the US bombing Serbia?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Kronos, @reactionry, @Lawyer Guy, @Oikeamielinen

    I have a better question: why do you hate freedom? The US can and should bomb whoever it wants to.

    • LOL: HammerJack
    • Replies: @newrouter
    @Cagey Beast

    Thanks for the your historical perspective. I thought it was because Somalis were invading Minnesota via Belgrade.

  22. @Steve Sailer
    @Not Raul

    The Serbs figured out that the Stealth Fighter wasn't in stealth mode during the seconds it was opening and closing its bomb bay door and they managed to do what needed to be done during that short window. An impressive feat by Colonel Dani and his boys:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

    Replies: @Lurker, @Anonymous, @Eagle Eye

    Strictly speaking a stealth fighter doesn’t have a stealth ‘mode’. It’s stealthiness is largely a property of it’s physical structure, it’s shape. It’s stealthy – has a very low radar signature – all the time, whether it’s parked or flying. It can’t be switched on and off.

    The stealthy configuration of the aircraft is altered (compromised) by eg the wheels being down or the bomb bay is open (as in the Serbian incident). Though still less than a conventional aircraft of roughly similar proportions like the F-15.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Lurker

    That's what I always thought, though with fewer apostrophe's.

    Replies: @Lurker, @Twodees Partain

    , @Amerimutt Golems
    @Lurker

    Many confuse stealth with invisibility.

    Must be Hollywood conditioning. It has its own version of what happened.

    Under Siege 2: Dark Territory
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_Siege_2

    , @Mr Mox
    @Lurker

    For a great history of the stealth fighter (and other interesting stuff) I wholeheartedly reckomend "Skunk Works" by Ben. R Rich, the former boss of Lockheed's legendary Skunk Works.

    At one point they are going to demonstrate a mock-up plane's radar stealth for some important people. They run a final test only to discover the plane lights up like a Christmas three on the radar screen. A visual inspection turns out the culprit is a crow perching on top of the mock-up...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Joe Stalin, @Lurker

  23. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Not Raul

    The Serbs figured out that the Stealth Fighter wasn't in stealth mode during the seconds it was opening and closing its bomb bay door and they managed to do what needed to be done during that short window. An impressive feat by Colonel Dani and his boys:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

    Replies: @Lurker, @Anonymous, @Eagle Eye

    It’s becoming more and more obvious that stealth has a limited future, because the basic idea of how to locate it by RF is well in the literature.

    Essentially, and to oversimplify, conventional radar transmits and receives a signal intermittently on a duty cycle so that it has a transmit and receive cycle in line with how long it takes for the sent signal to come back.

    The stealth aircraft uses geometric shapes and radar absorbent materials to keep from returning a distinct return pulse. But it doe not attenuate nor absorb the RF at the same rate as does an equivalent chunk of atmosphere. If a continuous RF signal is sent at the aircraft, the standing wave ratio of the transmitted to reflected signal will be different than if it were directed into open space.

    The problem is that it isn’t very different, and at any distance, the airplane takes up a very tiny chunk of the sky. The CW RF beam has to be very narrow, and it has to scan a lot of sky very fast, and the change is not very much. So the signal to noise ratio is pretty crummy, and there is a lot of variance in the atmosphere with pressure, temperature, water vapor content, et al. But the stealth airplane has a possible range of physical dimensions, a range of possible speeds-it has to fly over its stall speed and below its maximum speed, and helpfully it’s the fastest object of anywhere near its size in any given chunk of sky (except for nonstealthy airplanes which can be painted with regular radar, and maybe large artillery shells or a re-entering ICBM, in which case you have other things to worry about).

    It takes a huge amount of real time computational power to pick the fly shit out of the pepper, but computational power is now very cheap. This is probably the reason the USAF is flying a few Nighthawks in the Nevada desert:

    • Replies: @animalogic
    @Anonymous

    "It’s becoming more and more obvious that stealth has a limited future"
    On a related note, I suspect that manned fighters have a somewhat limited future. As fighter speeds increase towards the hypersonic, & if human limits with g-forces etc remain static the push towards the unmanned fighter should increase. The constant successful use of current drones demonstrates that we are far beyond the merely theoretical.

    , @Alden
    @Anonymous

    Thanks for the information

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    , @Eagle Eye
    @Anonymous


    If a continuous RF signal is sent at the aircraft, the standing wave ratio of the transmitted to reflected signal will be different than if it were directed into open space.
     
    If a "passive radar" installation is positioned such that a target plane would have to fly BETWEEN the transmitter - e.g. a standard terrestrial TV transmitter - and the passive radar receiver, disturbances in the transmission path caused by the plane can be detected far more easily than by relying on back-scatter.
  24. anon[175] • Disclaimer says:

    Now that we have made China industrialized and much more wealthy, I hope we move about half that manufacturing back here. Legions of whites, blacks, and latinos here could use decent paying work, 40 hours a week (or more if they like overtime to buy the little extras in life for their families). Its a vote getting issue in my opinion.

    • Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist
    @anon

    US manufacturing activity has not dropped in the long-term. US manufacturing employment has. Those are two different things.

    Those jobs are never coming back, instead they are continuing a long-term trend in moving to the Vietnams of the world.

  25. As we say in the Antipodes, “When will this wokemare end?” Hat tip – Sky Australia.

    I have a simpler conspiracy theory. Our rulers hate white people, especially unwoke Eastern Europeans.

    They hit the PRC embassy because they are not as brilliant and competent as they think they are.

  26. Fast forward to today and we have Serbia’s nuclear armed friends more unified than ever:

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1200100011612213250?s=20

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Cagey Beast

    A bridge to nowhere. They've had rail connections for a century.

    The major stumbling block to a bridge over the Bering Straits via the Diomedes is that it's a hundred miles to the nearest road on one side and a thousand-- or two-- on the other.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    , @Cagey Beast
    @Cagey Beast

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1200874973142933505?s=20

  27. It’s a real shame to see you succumb to the rally to the flag China bashing that your country’s overlords are ginning up. The Chinese spy and steal, guess what, everybody does it.

    The Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them or flood you with immigrants, further, they definitely will not invade your homeland. Based on your earlier antecedents, is that not all that should be your concern? Instead, you give an implied justification for a programme that will only keep your troops abroad and continue the ‘invite/invade the world’ doctrine you claim to be against.

    Where is the logic?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    >the Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them
    Try saying that in Taiwan, The Island That We're Not To Mention

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Nigerian Nationalist

    , @Anonymous
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    The China shills of today will be remembered tomorrow as yesterday’s USSR shills are remembered today.

    Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist

    , @Hibernian
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    "...they definitely will not invade your homeland."

    Why invade it when you can buy it?

    Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist

  28. @anon
    Now that we have made China industrialized and much more wealthy, I hope we move about half that manufacturing back here. Legions of whites, blacks, and latinos here could use decent paying work, 40 hours a week (or more if they like overtime to buy the little extras in life for their families). Its a vote getting issue in my opinion.

    Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist

    US manufacturing activity has not dropped in the long-term. US manufacturing employment has. Those are two different things.

    Those jobs are never coming back, instead they are continuing a long-term trend in moving to the Vietnams of the world.

  29. @Buzz Mohawk
    The one I heard at the time was that the bombing was retaliation for the Chinese giving the Serbs the information and technique needed to shoot down the fighter. Of course, it was my Chinese dry cleaner who told me that. No kidding. He said the method involved setting up a system of two or three microwave transmitters, not much different from cell phones, creating a field through which the plane flew. You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.

    Steve's hypotheses is better, even though he probably can't launder shirts worth a damn. His friend's idea is perhaps plausible. One thing is certain, the changes in trade that perhaps resulted in part from the event are among the worst things ever to have happened to the United States and the Western World. Of course, I can't properly wash cotton business shirts or figure out geopolitics and international trade, so I am probably wrong.

    Replies: @reactionry, @Mr. Anon, @Twodees Partain

    USSR Satellite States Freed About 30 Years Ago, So Wot’s Next Kids?

    I have no reason to doubt the details of your anecdote,
    although those of Thomas Friedman and his global network of taxi drivers seem at least questionable. OTOH, your dry cleaner might have been feeding you disinformation as part of a Carbon Tet Offensive.

    Also see – Chinese cash contributions to (Bill) Clinton campaign: No Tickee, No Washee Money?
    See also – U.S. gives to Chinese technology so that it can better launch US satellites – and now the US is fast becoming a mere Chinese satellite – and Democommierat & Republicuck politicians and businessmen – greedy, corrupt, thuggish, slavish satraps.

  30. @Buzz Mohawk
    The one I heard at the time was that the bombing was retaliation for the Chinese giving the Serbs the information and technique needed to shoot down the fighter. Of course, it was my Chinese dry cleaner who told me that. No kidding. He said the method involved setting up a system of two or three microwave transmitters, not much different from cell phones, creating a field through which the plane flew. You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.

    Steve's hypotheses is better, even though he probably can't launder shirts worth a damn. His friend's idea is perhaps plausible. One thing is certain, the changes in trade that perhaps resulted in part from the event are among the worst things ever to have happened to the United States and the Western World. Of course, I can't properly wash cotton business shirts or figure out geopolitics and international trade, so I am probably wrong.

    Replies: @reactionry, @Mr. Anon, @Twodees Partain

    Of course, it was my Chinese dry cleaner who told me that. No kidding. He said the method involved setting up a system of two or three microwave transmitters, not much different from cell phones, creating a field through which the plane flew. You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.

    That may not be so crazy. I don’t know much about Stealth technology (just what I read in Ben Rich’s book on the Skunkworks), but I’d guess that the so-called “Stealth Fighter” (it’s really a bomber) was designed to be nearly invisible to mono-static radar – but it’s radar cross-section might be a lot higher for bi-static radars, meaning those radars where the transmitter and receiver are not co-located.

    Ancient Chinese Secret, huh?

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Mr. Anon


    the so-called “Stealth Fighter” (it’s really a bomber)

     

    Apologies for my autism!

    I would say it really falls into the category of attack aircraft.

  31. @Cagey Beast
    @newrouter

    I have a better question: why do you hate freedom? The US can and should bomb whoever it wants to.

    Replies: @newrouter

    Thanks for the your historical perspective. I thought it was because Somalis were invading Minnesota via Belgrade.

  32. @Cagey Beast
    Fast forward to today and we have Serbia's nuclear armed friends more unified than ever:

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1200370723040251904?s=20

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1200100011612213250?s=20

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Cagey Beast

    A bridge to nowhere. They’ve had rail connections for a century.

    The major stumbling block to a bridge over the Bering Straits via the Diomedes is that it’s a hundred miles to the nearest road on one side and a thousand– or two– on the other.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yes it looks desolate in the video. Here's a news report on the project:
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/11/29/5-facts-about-russias-first-highway-bridge-to-china-a68399

  33. @Arclight
    I worked in Congress at the time and remember the argument for PNTR is that increased trade and exposure to capitalism and American culture was sure to have a liberalizing effect on China. Whoops.

    Replies: @houston 1992, @Kronos

    I can recall Senator John Kerry MA explaining that the Chinese would sell us textiles and low end goods whereas we would export to them high tech, high value added products such as aerospace and semiconductors.

    Yup, and super-majorities of Blue-staters rate him and those who spout the party line a wise and learned man versus a backward evil man such as ,say, Pat Buchanan

  34. @Reg Cæsar
    @Cagey Beast

    A bridge to nowhere. They've had rail connections for a century.

    The major stumbling block to a bridge over the Bering Straits via the Diomedes is that it's a hundred miles to the nearest road on one side and a thousand-- or two-- on the other.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast

    Yes it looks desolate in the video. Here’s a news report on the project:
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/11/29/5-facts-about-russias-first-highway-bridge-to-china-a68399

  35. @newrouter
    Sorry to be ignorant of this topic, but why was the US bombing Serbia?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Kronos, @reactionry, @Lawyer Guy, @Oikeamielinen

    I’ve tried to figure that out but to no avail. I was a little kid when that happened so I don’t recall any news coverage. (Though within 5 years they included it in elementary school history books.) The official story can be described as:

    Serbs made genocide + Neoliberals and Neocons think 1939 = US justification for US/NATO military intervention. I’ve heard around town that Bill Clinton supported it to take away news coverage of the Monica Lewinsky fiasco.

    Now the REAL question is:

    Was Monica Lewinsky a CIA asset?

    • Replies: @reactionry
    @Kronos

    Sometimes A Cigar Is Just A Phallus Replacement
    Or: What This Country Needs Is A 5-Cent Or Unpaid Intern
    Or: Leaves of Ass?

    I haven't the foggiest bottom if Lewinsky was a CIA asset, but am reasonably certain that said Devil With A Blue Dress On didn't avail herself of Buzz Mohawk' unnamed shadowy dry cleaner.

    A little bit of Lewinsky et al for Bill aka "America's First Black President"(according to Toni Morrison)? -
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK_LN3XEcnw

    Reminder: Xmas is coming soon; time to buy a sweet, candy-ass
    Walt Whitman's Sampler!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Morton's toes

    , @Haha
    @Kronos

    "Now the REAL question is: Was Monica Lewinsky a CIA asset?"

    My God, you are brilliant! If you were a little kid then, you are barely thirty now. You have a brilliant career ahead. Not joking, not trying to be smart, you could be right - and very astute- on this one. Spy agencies commonly set up honey-traps against people know to have problems with dick control. Bill definitely had a problem keeping his dick out of the way and the CIA is a spy agency. Case probably proved QED

    Replies: @Kronos

  36. @Arclight
    I worked in Congress at the time and remember the argument for PNTR is that increased trade and exposure to capitalism and American culture was sure to have a liberalizing effect on China. Whoops.

    Replies: @houston 1992, @Kronos

    It did heavily corrupt the Chinese government.

  37. @newrouter
    Sorry to be ignorant of this topic, but why was the US bombing Serbia?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Kronos, @reactionry, @Lawyer Guy, @Oikeamielinen

    My (sigh) hazy recollection of the time was that it had at least something to do with Serbia’s claim on Kosovo, a province which had become overwhelmingly Muslim over a period of centuries due to conquests and differences in birthrates – and much more to do with the fact that commieratbastards such as the Clintons don’t change the worldviews of their youth no matter how wealthy they later become. While the old Soviet Union was an embarrassment to those in the West who shared its depraved ideology, its passing presented them with somewhat new problems and opportunities.

    [MORE]

    “Liberals/Neo-Liberals”(i.e. Leftist Totalitarians) hated the new Russia not because of its corruption and autocratic tendencies, but rather, because it was not totalitarian nor infused with a genocidal hatred of whites and Christians (of the non-“Liberation Theology” sort). It wasn’t easy keeping any kind of track of the various religious and ethnic groups of Yugoslavia, but I recall thinking that while some groups which were predominately Roman Catholic in origin (Croats?) might seem more “Western” than those linked to the Eastern Orthodox groups (mostly Serbs – and yeah, I read a little of Huntington’s stuff), that Clinton’s animus against the Serbs was due to their backing by the Russians – and that Clinton was far more deeply anti-Western than was Russia after the fall of the USSR. I remember “rooting for the “Ruskies” many years before reading of the “Alt Right.”

    Clinton’s efforts to protect Bosnian Muslims were based, not upon the horrific atrocities committed by the Serbs (that is to say, a pretext for Clinton’s actions), but instead upon a hatred of the West shared by most “New Democrats” and most Muslims.

    • Agree: Alden, sayless
  38. @Nigerian Nationalist
    It's a real shame to see you succumb to the rally to the flag China bashing that your country's overlords are ginning up. The Chinese spy and steal, guess what, everybody does it.

    The Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them or flood you with immigrants, further, they definitely will not invade your homeland. Based on your earlier antecedents, is that not all that should be your concern? Instead, you give an implied justification for a programme that will only keep your troops abroad and continue the 'invite/invade the world' doctrine you claim to be against.

    Where is the logic?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Anonymous, @Hibernian

    >the Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them
    Try saying that in Taiwan, The Island That We’re Not To Mention

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @J.Ross

    Also, we do happen to have a zillion Chinese immigrants. Just not a zillion by Chinese standards. Same deal with India: they can export just a few percent of their population and wreck any other country on earth.

    , @Nigerian Nationalist
    @J.Ross

    But that is the Taiwanese asking you to fight their wars for them. What vital interest is your country (owner of such American mainland territories as Guantanamo, Guam and Puerto Rico) defending in Taiwan?

    You lot got Mexico and California, in addition to the mentioned and the Philippines for a century, ditto Putin and the Crimea. The self righteousness displayed over Taiwan is much sour grapes over the CCP crushing the KMT nad policy inertia.

  39. @Kronos
    @newrouter

    I’ve tried to figure that out but to no avail. I was a little kid when that happened so I don’t recall any news coverage. (Though within 5 years they included it in elementary school history books.) The official story can be described as:

    Serbs made genocide + Neoliberals and Neocons think 1939 = US justification for US/NATO military intervention. I’ve heard around town that Bill Clinton supported it to take away news coverage of the Monica Lewinsky fiasco.

    Now the REAL question is:

    Was Monica Lewinsky a CIA asset?

    Replies: @reactionry, @Haha

    Sometimes A Cigar Is Just A Phallus Replacement
    Or: What This Country Needs Is A 5-Cent Or Unpaid Intern
    Or: Leaves of Ass?

    I haven’t the foggiest bottom if Lewinsky was a CIA asset, but am reasonably certain that said Devil With A Blue Dress On didn’t avail herself of Buzz Mohawk’ unnamed shadowy dry cleaner.

    A little bit of Lewinsky et al for Bill aka “America’s First Black President”(according to Toni Morrison)? –

    Reminder: Xmas is coming soon; time to buy a sweet, candy-ass
    Walt Whitman’s Sampler!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @reactionry


    What This Country Needs Is A 5-Cent Or Unpaid Intern
     
    The Divine Miss L wasn't an unpaid intern at the time of her transgressions. She had been promoted to a paid position.

    The question is, why her, out of all those interns.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer

    , @Morton's toes
    @reactionry

    If she was a professional espionage agent she would have been skilled, not clumsy, at the blowjob thing.

  40. @Andy
    The problem with the theory is that it supposes that the CIA is run by extremely bright people - I'm skeptic of any conspiracy theory where the villains are supposed to play 3D chess against their opponents

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Kronos

    It’s still seems kinda weird to bomb a foreign embassy due to espionage. Wouldn’t they punish the Chinese via more subtle/devastating means via hacking something important? The Chinese embassy bombing angered the Chinese more than scared them. I guess the US military did a superb job bombing the building, but it was the wrong one. Thus,

    Derp State: 1

    Deep State: 0

    Keep in mind this is like handing a propaganda boon to a potential strategic rival.

  41. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:

    Bombing of the Chinese embassy wasn’t a CIA conspiracy for exactly the same reason why OJ wasn’t framed by a giant LAPD racist conspiracy: The track record of sheer incompetence in both organizations makes incompetence a far likely explanation. Think Occam.

    Yugoslavia bombing campaign was associated with the most blatant fake news propaganda campaign in the MSM. Of the kind unheard of before and, almost, since (the “Attack Iraq” campaign is in competition, though).

    • Replies: @WJ
    @Anonymous

    The 1990 GW 1 propaganda campaign was pretty intense. Don't forget the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador, a person who hadn't been in Kuwait for years, testifying about the babies tossed out of incubators.

    , @Hibernian
    @Anonymous

    Incompetence at finding the real killer?

    Replies: @Anonymous

  42. But, the obvious rejoiner is this:

    What does the United States, its Deep State or otherwise, have to gain from fostering an economic, military and financially dominant China?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    CEO class Americans did very well off outsourcing to China over the last 19 years.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon

  43. @reactionry
    @Kronos

    Sometimes A Cigar Is Just A Phallus Replacement
    Or: What This Country Needs Is A 5-Cent Or Unpaid Intern
    Or: Leaves of Ass?

    I haven't the foggiest bottom if Lewinsky was a CIA asset, but am reasonably certain that said Devil With A Blue Dress On didn't avail herself of Buzz Mohawk' unnamed shadowy dry cleaner.

    A little bit of Lewinsky et al for Bill aka "America's First Black President"(according to Toni Morrison)? -
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK_LN3XEcnw

    Reminder: Xmas is coming soon; time to buy a sweet, candy-ass
    Walt Whitman's Sampler!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Morton's toes

    What This Country Needs Is A 5-Cent Or Unpaid Intern

    The Divine Miss L wasn’t an unpaid intern at the time of her transgressions. She had been promoted to a paid position.

    The question is, why her, out of all those interns.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @Reg Cæsar

    I saw a picture of her when she was first hired. Much better looking.

  44. @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    It's becoming more and more obvious that stealth has a limited future, because the basic idea of how to locate it by RF is well in the literature.

    Essentially, and to oversimplify, conventional radar transmits and receives a signal intermittently on a duty cycle so that it has a transmit and receive cycle in line with how long it takes for the sent signal to come back.

    The stealth aircraft uses geometric shapes and radar absorbent materials to keep from returning a distinct return pulse. But it doe not attenuate nor absorb the RF at the same rate as does an equivalent chunk of atmosphere. If a continuous RF signal is sent at the aircraft, the standing wave ratio of the transmitted to reflected signal will be different than if it were directed into open space.


    The problem is that it isn't very different, and at any distance, the airplane takes up a very tiny chunk of the sky. The CW RF beam has to be very narrow, and it has to scan a lot of sky very fast, and the change is not very much. So the signal to noise ratio is pretty crummy, and there is a lot of variance in the atmosphere with pressure, temperature, water vapor content, et al. But the stealth airplane has a possible range of physical dimensions, a range of possible speeds-it has to fly over its stall speed and below its maximum speed, and helpfully it's the fastest object of anywhere near its size in any given chunk of sky (except for nonstealthy airplanes which can be painted with regular radar, and maybe large artillery shells or a re-entering ICBM, in which case you have other things to worry about).

    It takes a huge amount of real time computational power to pick the fly shit out of the pepper, but computational power is now very cheap. This is probably the reason the USAF is flying a few Nighthawks in the Nevada desert:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hONI3ztajb4

    Replies: @animalogic, @Alden, @Eagle Eye

    “It’s becoming more and more obvious that stealth has a limited future”
    On a related note, I suspect that manned fighters have a somewhat limited future. As fighter speeds increase towards the hypersonic, & if human limits with g-forces etc remain static the push towards the unmanned fighter should increase. The constant successful use of current drones demonstrates that we are far beyond the merely theoretical.

  45. Back in 99 and for years after Chinese agents were spotted asking Serbian townsfolk if they took any parts from the crashed F-117, offering large sums of money from them

    1999 would be a good year to mark the start of Cold War 2

    • Replies: @Romanian
    @Korenchkin

    And you should also remember the Hainan Incident in April 2001, when a US plane (a big AWACS type) was downed by the Chinese and forced to land on Hainan (they say mid-air collision, but, to my mind, it was an intentional hit on the part of the nimbler J-2 fighters, just like they collide ships today to scare them without firing on them). Its crew was taken prisoner, and the Chinese demanded an apology from the US for violating airspace (this was above the South China Sea). The thing went back and forth until 9/11 was perpetrated, whereupon the US turned to focus on Afghanistan (which has a very small border with China). The US quietly sent an apology letter, got the men released (dunno about the equipment from the plane) and China was voted into the WTO in December 2001.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

    It was the Pueblo of its time. I am surprised not even the China hawks in the US bring it up!

    Replies: @sayless

  46. @Anonymous
    But, the obvious rejoiner is this:

    What does the United States, its Deep State or otherwise, have to gain from fostering an economic, military and financially dominant China?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    CEO class Americans did very well off outsourcing to China over the last 19 years.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes.

    But, surely, it's the chief function of the CIA - and the entire Beltway analyst class - to anticipate major challenges to American hegemony, years before they actually come into fruition - and to nudge government policy in a direction to thwart the threat, even if it involves that Holy-of,-Holies the globalisation agenda.

    Replies: @Kronos

    , @anon
    @Steve Sailer

    So basically it's the dumb traditional Leftist view of the CIA as being an outfit for rich right wing capitalists, but now repurposed by the Right for partisan reasons, namely because the CIA is viewed today by the Right as being anti-Trump, it must have been "bad" in the past as well.

    At any rate, 9/11 and the "War on Terror" was more critical to distracting the US from other issues like trade. It'd be more plausible to say that the CIA was involved in 9/11 and the War on Terror in order to promote "pro-China globalism" by distracting the US with something else. Tenet of course was instrumental in selling the Iraq War.

  47. @Reg Cæsar
    @reactionry


    What This Country Needs Is A 5-Cent Or Unpaid Intern
     
    The Divine Miss L wasn't an unpaid intern at the time of her transgressions. She had been promoted to a paid position.

    The question is, why her, out of all those interns.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer

    I saw a picture of her when she was first hired. Much better looking.

  48. For all saying simple conspiracies are better, and the CIA is too incompetent to do a sophisticated Conspiracy: The CIA is full of people who know they’re more clever than anyone else.

  49. I visited the Museum in Belgrade where they have the collected memorabilia from downed US fighters in Serbia and Bosnia – flight suit, helmet, ejection seat etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_Enemy_Lines_(2001_film)

  50. @Korenchkin
    Back in 99 and for years after Chinese agents were spotted asking Serbian townsfolk if they took any parts from the crashed F-117, offering large sums of money from them

    1999 would be a good year to mark the start of Cold War 2

    Replies: @Romanian

    And you should also remember the Hainan Incident in April 2001, when a US plane (a big AWACS type) was downed by the Chinese and forced to land on Hainan (they say mid-air collision, but, to my mind, it was an intentional hit on the part of the nimbler J-2 fighters, just like they collide ships today to scare them without firing on them). Its crew was taken prisoner, and the Chinese demanded an apology from the US for violating airspace (this was above the South China Sea). The thing went back and forth until 9/11 was perpetrated, whereupon the US turned to focus on Afghanistan (which has a very small border with China). The US quietly sent an apology letter, got the men released (dunno about the equipment from the plane) and China was voted into the WTO in December 2001.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

    It was the Pueblo of its time. I am surprised not even the China hawks in the US bring it up!

    • Replies: @sayless
    @Romanian

    The plane was sent back to the US eventually, in boxes.

    Replies: @Romanian

  51. @Nigerian Nationalist
    It's a real shame to see you succumb to the rally to the flag China bashing that your country's overlords are ginning up. The Chinese spy and steal, guess what, everybody does it.

    The Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them or flood you with immigrants, further, they definitely will not invade your homeland. Based on your earlier antecedents, is that not all that should be your concern? Instead, you give an implied justification for a programme that will only keep your troops abroad and continue the 'invite/invade the world' doctrine you claim to be against.

    Where is the logic?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Anonymous, @Hibernian

    The China shills of today will be remembered tomorrow as yesterday’s USSR shills are remembered today.

    • Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist
    @Anonymous

    Gkad that you mentioned the Soviet Union, it is the perfect example of the propensity of Americans for stupidity in foreign affairs. In what way exactly, outside of your elite induced fever dreams did the USSR militarily threaten American territory?

    However, due to your fantasies, you lot poisoned relations with your southern neighbours and unleashed global Islamic terror on the world, among many other mishaps, including the waste of your youths in your losing campaign in Vietnam. Worse an unearned triumphalism on your part lost Russia as an ally, perhaps permanently.

    But sure, indulge in the fantasies of shills and whatever its antonym is.

  52. how would people even in the CIA know for sure if the bombing was ordered or not? Could not rely on what someone said, like in a meeting where the President is briefed. There would have to be after action reports. Which can not be viewed online?

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    @Steve Richter

    Bombing or missile strikes are known as missions. They are always done on orders. It isn't good practice to have pilots go on bombing runs on their own initiative, in case that never occurred to you.

    I mean, imagine allowing someone like John McCain or George W Bush just take off and attack whatever target they choose. The horror. ;-)

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

  53. @Justvisiting
    @Ron Unz

    Serious folks at the time knew it was intentional--but it was never clear why it was done.

    I look forward to the comments on this thread.

    Replies: @Tom Verso

    Some years ago I heard an interview with an American Ph.D type who was some sort of military liaison to the Chinese Army Schools. I can’t remember any of the specifics except one thing that he said while discussing Chinese military strategies.

    “They believe in striking deep into the enemies supply depots and bases. That’s why they could not understand why the Yugoslavs did not use their missiles to strike the American base in Italy – as they were advising them”

    AS THEY WERE ADVISING THEM!

    In short the Chinese were engaged in the Yugoslav War and it is reasonable that the Americans would attack their lines of communication in their embassy.

  54. @Ron Unz
    Actually, over the years Peter Lee has published a whole series of articles on the Belgrade Embassy Bombing, totaling something like 15,000 words. I think he's pretty persuasive that the bombing was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC. In fact, I vaguely remember that one American military commander got careless and bragged about the accuracy of the bombing attack to some journalist. Here's Lee's summary article and also a couple of his longest:

    https://www.unz.com/plee/no-the-ccp-has-not-forgotten-how-the-us-bombed-the-chinese-embassy-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/why-china-hates-satellite-guided-munitions-part-1-the-bombing-of-the-chinese-embassy-in-belgrade-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/how-it-all-began-the-belgrade-embassy-bombing/

    Basically, on all sorts of these "major historical incidents" the evidence often seems to point overwhelmingly in one direction, but the fact that the MSM said "Nope!" was generally treated as decisive, not least by myself at the time.

    However, once we recognize that the MSM really doesn't have much credibility and probably always had much less than we ever believed, we quickly see that we were just fooled about all those important matters.

    Replies: @Justvisiting, @Anonymous, @Yngvar, @Paul Jolliffe, @Paul Rise

    I agree.

    And since Pearl Harbor Day is right around the corner, here’s a link Commander Arther McCollum’s October 1940 memo urging Washington to take eight steps to induce Japan to strike the U.S. first, then in his words: “so much the better.”

    FDR implemented all eight recommendations, Pearl Harbor was attacked, and Admiral Husband Kimmel was made the scapegoat.

    To this day, the idea that FDR was almost certainly complicit in the killing of 2,400 Americans on December 7, 1941 is something the MSM will not touch.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Paul Jolliffe

    I take for granted that LBJ had an all but formal policy of either using single US Navy assets to start conflicts he imagined would be controllable (or at least of gambling irresponsibly with them), that he did this at least three times (Pueblo, Maddox, Liberty), and one of those "worked."

  55. @newrouter
    Sorry to be ignorant of this topic, but why was the US bombing Serbia?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Kronos, @reactionry, @Lawyer Guy, @Oikeamielinen

    I closely watched this war, as I waited for my years of reserve service to add up enough to get my letter. I had gotten activated for the Bosnia war a few years earlier, and expected to have to go again.

    Muslims and Christians had been equally held back from attacking each other, first by the Empire, then by the Soviet Puppet State leaders. They had a lot of religious/ethnic hate stored up. They let it go. Street warfare, death camps, rape camps, arty strikes on neighborhoods.

    Different outside countries took different sides. For reasons known only to Bill and Hill Clinton and their bright recent college grad staff, we picked the muslims.

    As part of that, the outside powers scrapped for key areas in the conflict zone, mostly by air strikes against locals and using shows of force to directly take the areas. Famously, Gen Clark, who the Clintons had picked as their Gen Powell, almost switched to a real ground conflict against the Russians for beating him to a major airport and road hub so they could support the Christians. Only a British commander’s refusal to escalate on Clark’s order saved the situation.

    This is a big part of the reason Clark’s chances of Defense/SoS went away, and his chance of a Senate career, even though the Clinton’s spent a fair amount of media favors to boost him

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Lawyer Guy

    Quibble: Tito, a Soviet puppet?

    , @Pheasant
    @Lawyer Guy

    'Only a British commander’s refusal to escalate on Clark’s order saved the situation.'

    James Blunt (really Blount a descendent of Henry the eight) of 'your beautiful' song fame.

    He was commanding a light tank recconaisance unit attatched to a battalion of rapid reaction paratroopers. He realised the Russians had taken the airport but had no drinking water and so he offered to share with them.

    General Wesley Clark is also a confirmed crypto Jew.

  56. @Anonymous
    Bombing of the Chinese embassy wasn't a CIA conspiracy for exactly the same reason why OJ wasn't framed by a giant LAPD racist conspiracy: The track record of sheer incompetence in both organizations makes incompetence a far likely explanation. Think Occam.

    Yugoslavia bombing campaign was associated with the most blatant fake news propaganda campaign in the MSM. Of the kind unheard of before and, almost, since (the "Attack Iraq" campaign is in competition, though).

    Replies: @WJ, @Hibernian

    The 1990 GW 1 propaganda campaign was pretty intense. Don’t forget the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador, a person who hadn’t been in Kuwait for years, testifying about the babies tossed out of incubators.

  57. @Lurker
    @Steve Sailer

    Strictly speaking a stealth fighter doesn't have a stealth 'mode'. It's stealthiness is largely a property of it's physical structure, it's shape. It's stealthy - has a very low radar signature - all the time, whether it's parked or flying. It can't be switched on and off.

    The stealthy configuration of the aircraft is altered (compromised) by eg the wheels being down or the bomb bay is open (as in the Serbian incident). Though still less than a conventional aircraft of roughly similar proportions like the F-15.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Amerimutt Golems, @Mr Mox

    That’s what I always thought, though with fewer apostrophe’s.

    • LOL: Lurker
    • Replies: @Lurker
    @HammerJack

    Sorry about that, it was done on the phone. Bloody autocorrect getting in on the act.

    , @Twodees Partain
    @HammerJack

    Good one, HJ. Great line.

  58. @J.Ross
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    >the Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them
    Try saying that in Taiwan, The Island That We're Not To Mention

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Nigerian Nationalist

    Also, we do happen to have a zillion Chinese immigrants. Just not a zillion by Chinese standards. Same deal with India: they can export just a few percent of their population and wreck any other country on earth.

    • Agree: bomag
  59. So, here’s his conspiracy theory: maybe bombing the Chinese Embassy was the CIA’s way to keep pro-China globalism on track despite soon to be released evidence in the Cox Report that the Chinese were not our pals?

    That one is good because middle aged geezers like myself will be pushing the young White people to pound the ruling class and the ruling class stooges who crawled into bed with the Chinese Communist Party to clam rake loot out of cheap labor from China.

    Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton and the Bush Organized Crime Syndicate colluded with the Chinese Communist Party to profit from cheap labor in China and financialization and globalization.

    I could sell that angle to young Whites, or at least try to sell it.

    Here were my Chinese embassy conjectures:

    2019:

    The only bright spot out of all that Balkan bombing done by the American Empire in 1999 was the accidental pinpoint bombing of the Chinese embassy by some crazed CIA kook. US military might have been in on it too, but it’s fun to blame the CIA.

    2018:

    If Osama’s compound close by the Pakistani military installation had been bombed from the air using planes and cruise missiles an accidental impact point might have been cooked up like the time where the Chinese embassy was “accidentally” bombed during the American Empire’s Balkan misadventure.

  60. I still prefer my own original conspiracy theory, even though I’ve forgotten how it goes.

  61. @Buzz Mohawk
    The one I heard at the time was that the bombing was retaliation for the Chinese giving the Serbs the information and technique needed to shoot down the fighter. Of course, it was my Chinese dry cleaner who told me that. No kidding. He said the method involved setting up a system of two or three microwave transmitters, not much different from cell phones, creating a field through which the plane flew. You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.

    Steve's hypotheses is better, even though he probably can't launder shirts worth a damn. His friend's idea is perhaps plausible. One thing is certain, the changes in trade that perhaps resulted in part from the event are among the worst things ever to have happened to the United States and the Western World. Of course, I can't properly wash cotton business shirts or figure out geopolitics and international trade, so I am probably wrong.

    Replies: @reactionry, @Mr. Anon, @Twodees Partain

    ” You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.”

    Except when he tells you that he really tried to get the coffee stain out of your favorite short, or that you forgot to ask for heavy starch. They are usually lying about those two things.

  62. @songbird
    Stealth is an overhyped technology, IMO. What it really does is just lower the political cost of bombing third world countries.

    Replies: @Twodees Partain, @SunBakedSuburb

    Brilliant comment, and true.

  63. @Ron Unz
    Actually, over the years Peter Lee has published a whole series of articles on the Belgrade Embassy Bombing, totaling something like 15,000 words. I think he's pretty persuasive that the bombing was certainly deliberate and obviously recognized as such by the PRC. In fact, I vaguely remember that one American military commander got careless and bragged about the accuracy of the bombing attack to some journalist. Here's Lee's summary article and also a couple of his longest:

    https://www.unz.com/plee/no-the-ccp-has-not-forgotten-how-the-us-bombed-the-chinese-embassy-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/why-china-hates-satellite-guided-munitions-part-1-the-bombing-of-the-chinese-embassy-in-belgrade-in-1999/

    https://www.unz.com/plee/how-it-all-began-the-belgrade-embassy-bombing/

    Basically, on all sorts of these "major historical incidents" the evidence often seems to point overwhelmingly in one direction, but the fact that the MSM said "Nope!" was generally treated as decisive, not least by myself at the time.

    However, once we recognize that the MSM really doesn't have much credibility and probably always had much less than we ever believed, we quickly see that we were just fooled about all those important matters.

    Replies: @Justvisiting, @Anonymous, @Yngvar, @Paul Jolliffe, @Paul Rise

    Mr. Unz – Years ago, a contact of mine involved in counterespionage efforts told me that the consensus among his peers is that the US was tricked into targeting the embassy by a Serbian warlord/career criminal named Arkan. Arkan was assassinated several months after – my friend said if Arkan’s rivals had not done it, the US would have gotten around to it as soon as they had plausible deniability or whatever.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    @Paul Rise


    the consensus among his peers is that the US was tricked into targeting the embassy by a Serbian warlord/career criminal named Arkan.
     
    Apparently getting the U.S. to drone your rival warlord/drug dealer/personal enemy was a national sport in Iraq and Afghanistan. So the deliberate misdirection theory is as good as any.

    But what was this Arkan's motive for having us bomb the Chinese?

    Replies: @Twodees Partain

  64. Anonymous[234] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    CEO class Americans did very well off outsourcing to China over the last 19 years.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon

    Yes.

    But, surely, it’s the chief function of the CIA – and the entire Beltway analyst class – to anticipate major challenges to American hegemony, years before they actually come into fruition – and to nudge government policy in a direction to thwart the threat, even if it involves that Holy-of,-Holies the globalisation agenda.

    • Replies: @Kronos
    @Anonymous

    Don’t forget about the corrosive incentives of the US stock market. Everyone wanted (still wants) the stock market to go up, up, UP! Anyone who had a decent 401k/Roth was willing to enter a “don’t ask don’t tell” economic deal with US lawmakers. With a “we don’t care how the sausage is made as long as we get it” mentality.

    US workers were sacrificed to become Sweeney Todd meat pies.

    https://youtu.be/Pn_XD7jDwFQ

  65. Well, I remember when this happened, and I am not too convinced by all these theories (although, there may be some truth in some of them, at least partially). My initial impression was- and haven’t given much thought to it since: Chinks, be good & behave- or we’ll bomb the shit out of you. This is just a small warning. Next time we’ll send you to Stone Age.

  66. @Nigerian Nationalist
    It's a real shame to see you succumb to the rally to the flag China bashing that your country's overlords are ginning up. The Chinese spy and steal, guess what, everybody does it.

    The Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them or flood you with immigrants, further, they definitely will not invade your homeland. Based on your earlier antecedents, is that not all that should be your concern? Instead, you give an implied justification for a programme that will only keep your troops abroad and continue the 'invite/invade the world' doctrine you claim to be against.

    Where is the logic?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Anonymous, @Hibernian

    “…they definitely will not invade your homeland.”

    Why invade it when you can buy it?

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist
    @Hibernian

    Like I asked in my original comment, where is the logic? Atleast the Libs are consistent, you lot have no logical justification to not just shrugging over China.

    That's why y'all have been reduced to reaching.

    A. China may well be rich in the future, it will never be richer than the USA.

    B. Other than the fact that it is literally impossible to buy a sovereign State without occupation, if one were to judge by the source of money sloshing around your country, your 'owners' are the Gulf Arabs and the Israelites. Do you feel less sovereign?

    Like I wrote initially, you guys are merely rallying to the flag, despite the policy being against your earlier stated interests.

  67. @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    It's becoming more and more obvious that stealth has a limited future, because the basic idea of how to locate it by RF is well in the literature.

    Essentially, and to oversimplify, conventional radar transmits and receives a signal intermittently on a duty cycle so that it has a transmit and receive cycle in line with how long it takes for the sent signal to come back.

    The stealth aircraft uses geometric shapes and radar absorbent materials to keep from returning a distinct return pulse. But it doe not attenuate nor absorb the RF at the same rate as does an equivalent chunk of atmosphere. If a continuous RF signal is sent at the aircraft, the standing wave ratio of the transmitted to reflected signal will be different than if it were directed into open space.


    The problem is that it isn't very different, and at any distance, the airplane takes up a very tiny chunk of the sky. The CW RF beam has to be very narrow, and it has to scan a lot of sky very fast, and the change is not very much. So the signal to noise ratio is pretty crummy, and there is a lot of variance in the atmosphere with pressure, temperature, water vapor content, et al. But the stealth airplane has a possible range of physical dimensions, a range of possible speeds-it has to fly over its stall speed and below its maximum speed, and helpfully it's the fastest object of anywhere near its size in any given chunk of sky (except for nonstealthy airplanes which can be painted with regular radar, and maybe large artillery shells or a re-entering ICBM, in which case you have other things to worry about).

    It takes a huge amount of real time computational power to pick the fly shit out of the pepper, but computational power is now very cheap. This is probably the reason the USAF is flying a few Nighthawks in the Nevada desert:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hONI3ztajb4

    Replies: @animalogic, @Alden, @Eagle Eye

    Thanks for the information

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    @Alden


    Thanks for the information

     

    Radar is a good racket with steady pay and benefits and now computational power is making the jobs program funny angle plane obsolete. Keep the military Keynesianism going by hook or by crook!

    Van Morrison might say:

    Thanks for the information
    Never give a sucker an even break
    When he's breaking through
    To a new level of consciousness
    There always seems to be more
    Obstacles in the way
    Thanks for the information I know
    It's only a combat zone

    Thanks For The Information by Van Morrison:

    https://youtu.be/-vsqkMuRMGw
  68. I was living in Ireland at the time and remember hearing it said that the idea Americans hit the embassy by mistake due to misreading a map seemed implausible until you’d actually had a conversation with with Americans about geography!

  69. @songbird
    Stealth is an overhyped technology, IMO. What it really does is just lower the political cost of bombing third world countries.

    Replies: @Twodees Partain, @SunBakedSuburb

    “Stealth is an overhyped technology.”

    And disappointing. When I think of “stealth” in a tactical context my addled brain wanders to “cloaked”, and then to the Romulans who have apparently perfected invisibility. It’s disappointing that reality can’t be more like Star Trek.

  70. Once the CIA is involved, it’s basically a conspiracy, by definition. The only question is who conspired to order the CIA action and what was their motive?

    Deliberately bombing the embassy of a nuclear power is obviously a decision that should have been made at the highest possible level – i.e., Bill Clinton.

    Having it authorized at any lower level would be a scandal in itself, and would raise serious questions about the chain of command and a potential rogue agency’s ability to get us into a war on its own.

    Then again, it’s hard to remember just how dominant (and arrogant) the U.S. was during the window after the collapse of the Soviet Union and before the rise of China.

  71. @Paul Rise
    @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz - Years ago, a contact of mine involved in counterespionage efforts told me that the consensus among his peers is that the US was tricked into targeting the embassy by a Serbian warlord/career criminal named Arkan. Arkan was assassinated several months after - my friend said if Arkan's rivals had not done it, the US would have gotten around to it as soon as they had plausible deniability or whatever.

    Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    the consensus among his peers is that the US was tricked into targeting the embassy by a Serbian warlord/career criminal named Arkan.

    Apparently getting the U.S. to drone your rival warlord/drug dealer/personal enemy was a national sport in Iraq and Afghanistan. So the deliberate misdirection theory is as good as any.

    But what was this Arkan’s motive for having us bomb the Chinese?

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    @Hypnotoad666

    Good question. Could it have been that Chinese advisors were causing him trouble somehow, or that he resented their influence?

  72. “So, here’s his conspiracy theory: maybe bombing the Chinese Embassy was the CIA’s way to keep pro-China globalism on track”

    Trade, using the term loosely, with China generated fortunes for DC, Wall Street, and corporate elites. There has been a Chinese presence clinging to the Clintons since the 1990s. Connect this with a more recent conspiracy theory: Hillary Clinton’s private email server was intentionally loaded with SAP data so a Chinese front company with real time access to the server could collect said data. FBI [CIA] special agent Peter Strzok led the investigation into the alleged electronic theft and declared no evidence existed that HRC’s server was compromised, or contained any classified data. Which means HRC sold the SAPs to the commie-capitalist Chinese.

  73. @HammerJack
    @Lurker

    That's what I always thought, though with fewer apostrophe's.

    Replies: @Lurker, @Twodees Partain

    Sorry about that, it was done on the phone. Bloody autocorrect getting in on the act.

  74. @Kronos
    @newrouter

    I’ve tried to figure that out but to no avail. I was a little kid when that happened so I don’t recall any news coverage. (Though within 5 years they included it in elementary school history books.) The official story can be described as:

    Serbs made genocide + Neoliberals and Neocons think 1939 = US justification for US/NATO military intervention. I’ve heard around town that Bill Clinton supported it to take away news coverage of the Monica Lewinsky fiasco.

    Now the REAL question is:

    Was Monica Lewinsky a CIA asset?

    Replies: @reactionry, @Haha

    “Now the REAL question is: Was Monica Lewinsky a CIA asset?”

    My God, you are brilliant! If you were a little kid then, you are barely thirty now. You have a brilliant career ahead. Not joking, not trying to be smart, you could be right – and very astute- on this one. Spy agencies commonly set up honey-traps against people know to have problems with dick control. Bill definitely had a problem keeping his dick out of the way and the CIA is a spy agency. Case probably proved QED

    • Replies: @Kronos
    @Haha

    It’s odd that she never had an “accident.” She even cultivated a modestly successful career. The whole “Clinton death count” notion does strongly suggest that crossing the Clintons is on average a bad idea.

    So Monica having extra protection (CIA backup) to deter the Clintons is not out of the question.

    Replies: @Justvisiting

  75. @Mr. Anon
    @Buzz Mohawk


    Of course, it was my Chinese dry cleaner who told me that. No kidding. He said the method involved setting up a system of two or three microwave transmitters, not much different from cell phones, creating a field through which the plane flew. You know you have to believe your dry cleaner.
     
    That may not be so crazy. I don't know much about Stealth technology (just what I read in Ben Rich's book on the Skunkworks), but I'd guess that the so-called "Stealth Fighter" (it's really a bomber) was designed to be nearly invisible to mono-static radar - but it's radar cross-section might be a lot higher for bi-static radars, meaning those radars where the transmitter and receiver are not co-located.

    Ancient Chinese Secret, huh?

    Replies: @Lurker

    the so-called “Stealth Fighter” (it’s really a bomber)

    Apologies for my autism!

    I would say it really falls into the category of attack aircraft.

  76. @Lurker
    @Steve Sailer

    Strictly speaking a stealth fighter doesn't have a stealth 'mode'. It's stealthiness is largely a property of it's physical structure, it's shape. It's stealthy - has a very low radar signature - all the time, whether it's parked or flying. It can't be switched on and off.

    The stealthy configuration of the aircraft is altered (compromised) by eg the wheels being down or the bomb bay is open (as in the Serbian incident). Though still less than a conventional aircraft of roughly similar proportions like the F-15.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Amerimutt Golems, @Mr Mox

    Many confuse stealth with invisibility.

    Must be Hollywood conditioning. It has its own version of what happened.

    Under Siege 2: Dark Territory
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_Siege_2

  77. Eagle Eye says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Not Raul

    The Serbs figured out that the Stealth Fighter wasn't in stealth mode during the seconds it was opening and closing its bomb bay door and they managed to do what needed to be done during that short window. An impressive feat by Colonel Dani and his boys:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

    Replies: @Lurker, @Anonymous, @Eagle Eye

    The Serbs figured out that the Stealth Fighter wasn’t in stealth mode during the seconds it was opening and closing its bomb bay door and they managed to do what needed to be done during that short window. An impressive feat by Colonel Dani and his boys …

    Undoubtedly an impressive military feat, and a useful reminder that stealth technology no longer works.

    The initial detection of the F-117A apparently used an interesting technique developed in Czechoslovakia: the TAMARA “passive radar” analyzes how strong radio signals – probably from standard TV transmitters – are disturbed or reflected by a flying object.

    The TAMARA system itself does not send out any radar pulses and is thus very hard to detect, unlike conventional bi-static radar where the radar pulses are transmitted from the same location that receives and analyzes the echoes. The actual shooting down of the Nighthawk probably used conventional radar.

    https://www.456fis.org/F-117_SHOT_DOWN.htm

    The story about the bomb bay door sounds technically correct but may be chaff put out by the Pentagon to distract from the existence of TAMARA (and much more sophisticated systems along the same lines available in 2019). With sophisticated passive radar, expensive stealth bomber programs become pointless. The loss of Pentagon stealth programs would pose a grave risk to many precious careers national security.

  78. Eagle Eye says:
    @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    It's becoming more and more obvious that stealth has a limited future, because the basic idea of how to locate it by RF is well in the literature.

    Essentially, and to oversimplify, conventional radar transmits and receives a signal intermittently on a duty cycle so that it has a transmit and receive cycle in line with how long it takes for the sent signal to come back.

    The stealth aircraft uses geometric shapes and radar absorbent materials to keep from returning a distinct return pulse. But it doe not attenuate nor absorb the RF at the same rate as does an equivalent chunk of atmosphere. If a continuous RF signal is sent at the aircraft, the standing wave ratio of the transmitted to reflected signal will be different than if it were directed into open space.


    The problem is that it isn't very different, and at any distance, the airplane takes up a very tiny chunk of the sky. The CW RF beam has to be very narrow, and it has to scan a lot of sky very fast, and the change is not very much. So the signal to noise ratio is pretty crummy, and there is a lot of variance in the atmosphere with pressure, temperature, water vapor content, et al. But the stealth airplane has a possible range of physical dimensions, a range of possible speeds-it has to fly over its stall speed and below its maximum speed, and helpfully it's the fastest object of anywhere near its size in any given chunk of sky (except for nonstealthy airplanes which can be painted with regular radar, and maybe large artillery shells or a re-entering ICBM, in which case you have other things to worry about).

    It takes a huge amount of real time computational power to pick the fly shit out of the pepper, but computational power is now very cheap. This is probably the reason the USAF is flying a few Nighthawks in the Nevada desert:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hONI3ztajb4

    Replies: @animalogic, @Alden, @Eagle Eye

    If a continuous RF signal is sent at the aircraft, the standing wave ratio of the transmitted to reflected signal will be different than if it were directed into open space.

    If a “passive radar” installation is positioned such that a target plane would have to fly BETWEEN the transmitter – e.g. a standard terrestrial TV transmitter – and the passive radar receiver, disturbances in the transmission path caused by the plane can be detected far more easily than by relying on back-scatter.

  79. anon[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    CEO class Americans did very well off outsourcing to China over the last 19 years.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @anon

    So basically it’s the dumb traditional Leftist view of the CIA as being an outfit for rich right wing capitalists, but now repurposed by the Right for partisan reasons, namely because the CIA is viewed today by the Right as being anti-Trump, it must have been “bad” in the past as well.

    At any rate, 9/11 and the “War on Terror” was more critical to distracting the US from other issues like trade. It’d be more plausible to say that the CIA was involved in 9/11 and the War on Terror in order to promote “pro-China globalism” by distracting the US with something else. Tenet of course was instrumental in selling the Iraq War.

  80. @Anonymous
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes.

    But, surely, it's the chief function of the CIA - and the entire Beltway analyst class - to anticipate major challenges to American hegemony, years before they actually come into fruition - and to nudge government policy in a direction to thwart the threat, even if it involves that Holy-of,-Holies the globalisation agenda.

    Replies: @Kronos

    Don’t forget about the corrosive incentives of the US stock market. Everyone wanted (still wants) the stock market to go up, up, UP! Anyone who had a decent 401k/Roth was willing to enter a “don’t ask don’t tell” economic deal with US lawmakers. With a “we don’t care how the sausage is made as long as we get it” mentality.

    US workers were sacrificed to become Sweeney Todd meat pies.

  81. @Lawyer Guy
    @newrouter

    I closely watched this war, as I waited for my years of reserve service to add up enough to get my letter. I had gotten activated for the Bosnia war a few years earlier, and expected to have to go again.

    Muslims and Christians had been equally held back from attacking each other, first by the Empire, then by the Soviet Puppet State leaders. They had a lot of religious/ethnic hate stored up. They let it go. Street warfare, death camps, rape camps, arty strikes on neighborhoods.

    Different outside countries took different sides. For reasons known only to Bill and Hill Clinton and their bright recent college grad staff, we picked the muslims.

    As part of that, the outside powers scrapped for key areas in the conflict zone, mostly by air strikes against locals and using shows of force to directly take the areas. Famously, Gen Clark, who the Clintons had picked as their Gen Powell, almost switched to a real ground conflict against the Russians for beating him to a major airport and road hub so they could support the Christians. Only a British commander's refusal to escalate on Clark's order saved the situation.

    This is a big part of the reason Clark's chances of Defense/SoS went away, and his chance of a Senate career, even though the Clinton's spent a fair amount of media favors to boost him

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pheasant

    Quibble: Tito, a Soviet puppet?

  82. @Paul Jolliffe
    @Ron Unz

    I agree.

    And since Pearl Harbor Day is right around the corner, here's a link Commander Arther McCollum's October 1940 memo urging Washington to take eight steps to induce Japan to strike the U.S. first, then in his words: "so much the better."

    FDR implemented all eight recommendations, Pearl Harbor was attacked, and Admiral Husband Kimmel was made the scapegoat.

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/McCollum_memorandum#/media/File:McCollum_memo_Page4.png

    To this day, the idea that FDR was almost certainly complicit in the killing of 2,400 Americans on December 7, 1941 is something the MSM will not touch.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    I take for granted that LBJ had an all but formal policy of either using single US Navy assets to start conflicts he imagined would be controllable (or at least of gambling irresponsibly with them), that he did this at least three times (Pueblo, Maddox, Liberty), and one of those “worked.”

  83. @reactionry
    @Kronos

    Sometimes A Cigar Is Just A Phallus Replacement
    Or: What This Country Needs Is A 5-Cent Or Unpaid Intern
    Or: Leaves of Ass?

    I haven't the foggiest bottom if Lewinsky was a CIA asset, but am reasonably certain that said Devil With A Blue Dress On didn't avail herself of Buzz Mohawk' unnamed shadowy dry cleaner.

    A little bit of Lewinsky et al for Bill aka "America's First Black President"(according to Toni Morrison)? -
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK_LN3XEcnw

    Reminder: Xmas is coming soon; time to buy a sweet, candy-ass
    Walt Whitman's Sampler!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Morton's toes

    If she was a professional espionage agent she would have been skilled, not clumsy, at the blowjob thing.

  84. How about murder by Bill Clinton, AKA Arkancide …..once the killing starts it seams like the universal answer to any number of problems…..given you have that sweet democrat immunity.

  85. @Haha
    @Kronos

    "Now the REAL question is: Was Monica Lewinsky a CIA asset?"

    My God, you are brilliant! If you were a little kid then, you are barely thirty now. You have a brilliant career ahead. Not joking, not trying to be smart, you could be right - and very astute- on this one. Spy agencies commonly set up honey-traps against people know to have problems with dick control. Bill definitely had a problem keeping his dick out of the way and the CIA is a spy agency. Case probably proved QED

    Replies: @Kronos

    It’s odd that she never had an “accident.” She even cultivated a modestly successful career. The whole “Clinton death count” notion does strongly suggest that crossing the Clintons is on average a bad idea.

    So Monica having extra protection (CIA backup) to deter the Clintons is not out of the question.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
    @Kronos

    I find it hard to believe Monica began her "career" as a CIA agent, but it is still possible that the CIA "watched her back" after they found out about the relationship. They could do this without her knowledge. In DC the spooks spy on everybody else (especially the White House)--it is as routine as breathing.

    Replies: @Prester John

  86. The version I heard was that CIA thought China was housing the Serb central command in the embassy. So they decided to bomb it. It’d be consequence-free, because China wasn’t likely able to retaliate. As for where did the CIA get that idea, no one gave an answer. Perhaps the Serbs fed it to them, trying to get China to join the war.

    They were right up to a point, China didn’t retaliate. But the bombing has consequences, a very important one. It was a wakeup call. China realized military industry couldn’t be neglected anymore, and started to seriously budget developing new equipments. 20 years later, finally started to show some results.

  87. @Anonymous
    Bombing of the Chinese embassy wasn't a CIA conspiracy for exactly the same reason why OJ wasn't framed by a giant LAPD racist conspiracy: The track record of sheer incompetence in both organizations makes incompetence a far likely explanation. Think Occam.

    Yugoslavia bombing campaign was associated with the most blatant fake news propaganda campaign in the MSM. Of the kind unheard of before and, almost, since (the "Attack Iraq" campaign is in competition, though).

    Replies: @WJ, @Hibernian

    Incompetence at finding the real killer?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Hibernian

    No, other types of incompetence. Like breaking and entering one's residence because of a double murder a few blocks away. Like putting vial of suspect's blood into your pocket and returning to the crime scene where evidence was being collected. Like having your forensic lab in a state of mess.

  88. @newrouter
    Sorry to be ignorant of this topic, but why was the US bombing Serbia?

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Kronos, @reactionry, @Lawyer Guy, @Oikeamielinen

    It may simply have been done for the sake of exercise and as a show of strength on the European continent. Effectiveness of fake news on Euro/NATO masses could be observed and obedience of their respective governments gauged.

    I remember myself as an ignorant dolt (no longer a child, either) sneering at the outrages committed by the Balkan beasts, duh.

  89. @Kronos
    @Haha

    It’s odd that she never had an “accident.” She even cultivated a modestly successful career. The whole “Clinton death count” notion does strongly suggest that crossing the Clintons is on average a bad idea.

    So Monica having extra protection (CIA backup) to deter the Clintons is not out of the question.

    Replies: @Justvisiting

    I find it hard to believe Monica began her “career” as a CIA agent, but it is still possible that the CIA “watched her back” after they found out about the relationship. They could do this without her knowledge. In DC the spooks spy on everybody else (especially the White House)–it is as routine as breathing.

    • Replies: @Prester John
    @Justvisiting

    The Beltway has evolved into a microcosmic version of Stalinist Russia, with the CIA playing the role of the dreaded NKVD.

  90. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hibernian
    @Anonymous

    Incompetence at finding the real killer?

    Replies: @Anonymous

    No, other types of incompetence. Like breaking and entering one’s residence because of a double murder a few blocks away. Like putting vial of suspect’s blood into your pocket and returning to the crime scene where evidence was being collected. Like having your forensic lab in a state of mess.

  91. @Not Raul
    Steve, your theory is the best I have heard. By far.

    It makes a lot more sense than the more common theories.

    The Deep State exists to benefit wealthy individuals and corporations that profit from the military industrial complex. Many of these same wealthy individuals and corporations have benefited from China entering the WTO.

    As for the "stealth fighter", I guess it wasn't really so stealth, if the Serbs could shoot it down using technology that was decades old. It "worked" in the sense that it generated income for defense contractors, and jobs in the districts of influential politicians.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Anonymous

    Apparently it loses stealth in the rain.

    Did they not think to test it somewhere besides Arizona?

  92. @Lurker
    @Steve Sailer

    Strictly speaking a stealth fighter doesn't have a stealth 'mode'. It's stealthiness is largely a property of it's physical structure, it's shape. It's stealthy - has a very low radar signature - all the time, whether it's parked or flying. It can't be switched on and off.

    The stealthy configuration of the aircraft is altered (compromised) by eg the wheels being down or the bomb bay is open (as in the Serbian incident). Though still less than a conventional aircraft of roughly similar proportions like the F-15.

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Amerimutt Golems, @Mr Mox

    For a great history of the stealth fighter (and other interesting stuff) I wholeheartedly reckomend “Skunk Works” by Ben. R Rich, the former boss of Lockheed’s legendary Skunk Works.

    At one point they are going to demonstrate a mock-up plane’s radar stealth for some important people. They run a final test only to discover the plane lights up like a Christmas three on the radar screen. A visual inspection turns out the culprit is a crow perching on top of the mock-up…

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Mr Mox

    I love "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich and Leo Janos:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the_education_industrial_complex_steve_sailer/

    , @Joe Stalin
    @Mr Mox

    https://youtu.be/8JKkj2QXOvc

    , @Lurker
    @Mr Mox

    Thanks, I have read it.

  93. @Mr Mox
    @Lurker

    For a great history of the stealth fighter (and other interesting stuff) I wholeheartedly reckomend "Skunk Works" by Ben. R Rich, the former boss of Lockheed's legendary Skunk Works.

    At one point they are going to demonstrate a mock-up plane's radar stealth for some important people. They run a final test only to discover the plane lights up like a Christmas three on the radar screen. A visual inspection turns out the culprit is a crow perching on top of the mock-up...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Joe Stalin, @Lurker

    I love “Skunk Works” by Ben Rich and Leo Janos:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/the_education_industrial_complex_steve_sailer/

  94. @Mr Mox
    @Lurker

    For a great history of the stealth fighter (and other interesting stuff) I wholeheartedly reckomend "Skunk Works" by Ben. R Rich, the former boss of Lockheed's legendary Skunk Works.

    At one point they are going to demonstrate a mock-up plane's radar stealth for some important people. They run a final test only to discover the plane lights up like a Christmas three on the radar screen. A visual inspection turns out the culprit is a crow perching on top of the mock-up...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Joe Stalin, @Lurker

  95. @Alden
    @Anonymous

    Thanks for the information

    Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    Thanks for the information

    Radar is a good racket with steady pay and benefits and now computational power is making the jobs program funny angle plane obsolete. Keep the military Keynesianism going by hook or by crook!

    Van Morrison might say:

    Thanks for the information
    Never give a sucker an even break
    When he’s breaking through
    To a new level of consciousness
    There always seems to be more
    Obstacles in the way
    Thanks for the information I know
    It’s only a combat zone

    Thanks For The Information by Van Morrison:

  96. @Romanian
    @Korenchkin

    And you should also remember the Hainan Incident in April 2001, when a US plane (a big AWACS type) was downed by the Chinese and forced to land on Hainan (they say mid-air collision, but, to my mind, it was an intentional hit on the part of the nimbler J-2 fighters, just like they collide ships today to scare them without firing on them). Its crew was taken prisoner, and the Chinese demanded an apology from the US for violating airspace (this was above the South China Sea). The thing went back and forth until 9/11 was perpetrated, whereupon the US turned to focus on Afghanistan (which has a very small border with China). The US quietly sent an apology letter, got the men released (dunno about the equipment from the plane) and China was voted into the WTO in December 2001.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

    It was the Pueblo of its time. I am surprised not even the China hawks in the US bring it up!

    Replies: @sayless

    The plane was sent back to the US eventually, in boxes.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    @sayless

    They made you pay for food and lodging for the 24 servicemen they captured.

  97. The Chinese do not…flood you with immigrants.

    Check out Canada. And they are not sending their best:

    Members of the Canada Chinese Veteran’s Society like to gather and pay homage to the forces that crushed the Tienanmen Square Protests.
    https://nationalpost.com/news/canadian-veterans-of-peoples-liberation-army-form-association-sing-of-chinas-martial-glory

  98. The idea that CIA was really doing China a favor? It doesn’t wash. If China had been beneficiaries, they would not have displayed the long, elephantine memory, expert HUMINT, and attention to detail to whack targeteer William Bennett and his wifey Cynthia in 09.

  99. ” Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) director George Tenet testified before a congressional committee… that the CIA had identified the wrong coordinates for a Yugoslav military target on the same street.”

    Make that George “Slam Dunk” Tenet.

  100. @Justvisiting
    @Kronos

    I find it hard to believe Monica began her "career" as a CIA agent, but it is still possible that the CIA "watched her back" after they found out about the relationship. They could do this without her knowledge. In DC the spooks spy on everybody else (especially the White House)--it is as routine as breathing.

    Replies: @Prester John

    The Beltway has evolved into a microcosmic version of Stalinist Russia, with the CIA playing the role of the dreaded NKVD.

  101. @Lawyer Guy
    @newrouter

    I closely watched this war, as I waited for my years of reserve service to add up enough to get my letter. I had gotten activated for the Bosnia war a few years earlier, and expected to have to go again.

    Muslims and Christians had been equally held back from attacking each other, first by the Empire, then by the Soviet Puppet State leaders. They had a lot of religious/ethnic hate stored up. They let it go. Street warfare, death camps, rape camps, arty strikes on neighborhoods.

    Different outside countries took different sides. For reasons known only to Bill and Hill Clinton and their bright recent college grad staff, we picked the muslims.

    As part of that, the outside powers scrapped for key areas in the conflict zone, mostly by air strikes against locals and using shows of force to directly take the areas. Famously, Gen Clark, who the Clintons had picked as their Gen Powell, almost switched to a real ground conflict against the Russians for beating him to a major airport and road hub so they could support the Christians. Only a British commander's refusal to escalate on Clark's order saved the situation.

    This is a big part of the reason Clark's chances of Defense/SoS went away, and his chance of a Senate career, even though the Clinton's spent a fair amount of media favors to boost him

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Pheasant

    ‘Only a British commander’s refusal to escalate on Clark’s order saved the situation.’

    James Blunt (really Blount a descendent of Henry the eight) of ‘your beautiful’ song fame.

    He was commanding a light tank recconaisance unit attatched to a battalion of rapid reaction paratroopers. He realised the Russians had taken the airport but had no drinking water and so he offered to share with them.

    General Wesley Clark is also a confirmed crypto Jew.

  102. @sayless
    @Romanian

    The plane was sent back to the US eventually, in boxes.

    Replies: @Romanian

    They made you pay for food and lodging for the 24 servicemen they captured.

  103. If it was also good for China, then wouldn’t they have bombed themselves their embassy to play victims or help the CIA blow the embassy up?

  104. @Steve Richter
    how would people even in the CIA know for sure if the bombing was ordered or not? Could not rely on what someone said, like in a meeting where the President is briefed. There would have to be after action reports. Which can not be viewed online?

    Replies: @Twodees Partain

    Bombing or missile strikes are known as missions. They are always done on orders. It isn’t good practice to have pilots go on bombing runs on their own initiative, in case that never occurred to you.

    I mean, imagine allowing someone like John McCain or George W Bush just take off and attack whatever target they choose. The horror. 😉

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    @Twodees Partain

    "I mean, imagine allowing someone like John McCain or George W Bush just take off and attack whatever target they choose. The horror. "

    Oh, I dunno.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZAq72EYp6w

  105. @HammerJack
    @Lurker

    That's what I always thought, though with fewer apostrophe's.

    Replies: @Lurker, @Twodees Partain

    Good one, HJ. Great line.

  106. @Hypnotoad666
    @Paul Rise


    the consensus among his peers is that the US was tricked into targeting the embassy by a Serbian warlord/career criminal named Arkan.
     
    Apparently getting the U.S. to drone your rival warlord/drug dealer/personal enemy was a national sport in Iraq and Afghanistan. So the deliberate misdirection theory is as good as any.

    But what was this Arkan's motive for having us bomb the Chinese?

    Replies: @Twodees Partain

    Good question. Could it have been that Chinese advisors were causing him trouble somehow, or that he resented their influence?

  107. @Cagey Beast
    Fast forward to today and we have Serbia's nuclear armed friends more unified than ever:

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1200370723040251904?s=20

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1200100011612213250?s=20

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Cagey Beast

  108. @Twodees Partain
    @Steve Richter

    Bombing or missile strikes are known as missions. They are always done on orders. It isn't good practice to have pilots go on bombing runs on their own initiative, in case that never occurred to you.

    I mean, imagine allowing someone like John McCain or George W Bush just take off and attack whatever target they choose. The horror. ;-)

    Replies: @Joe Stalin

    “I mean, imagine allowing someone like John McCain or George W Bush just take off and attack whatever target they choose. The horror. ”

    Oh, I dunno.

  109. @Lurker
    Fair play to the Serbs on the shoot down but I think if there are enough bullets, shells and missiles flying through the air, sooner or later, even a plane like the F-117 is going to find it's luck running out.

    Replies: @JMcG

    The sky is big and bullets are small.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @JMcG

    I think I kind of touched on that actually.

  110. @Anonymous
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    The China shills of today will be remembered tomorrow as yesterday’s USSR shills are remembered today.

    Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist

    Gkad that you mentioned the Soviet Union, it is the perfect example of the propensity of Americans for stupidity in foreign affairs. In what way exactly, outside of your elite induced fever dreams did the USSR militarily threaten American territory?

    However, due to your fantasies, you lot poisoned relations with your southern neighbours and unleashed global Islamic terror on the world, among many other mishaps, including the waste of your youths in your losing campaign in Vietnam. Worse an unearned triumphalism on your part lost Russia as an ally, perhaps permanently.

    But sure, indulge in the fantasies of shills and whatever its antonym is.

  111. @J.Ross
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    >the Chinese do not ask you to fight their wars for them
    Try saying that in Taiwan, The Island That We're Not To Mention

    Replies: @HammerJack, @Nigerian Nationalist

    But that is the Taiwanese asking you to fight their wars for them. What vital interest is your country (owner of such American mainland territories as Guantanamo, Guam and Puerto Rico) defending in Taiwan?

    You lot got Mexico and California, in addition to the mentioned and the Philippines for a century, ditto Putin and the Crimea. The self righteousness displayed over Taiwan is much sour grapes over the CCP crushing the KMT nad policy inertia.

  112. @Hibernian
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    "...they definitely will not invade your homeland."

    Why invade it when you can buy it?

    Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist

    Like I asked in my original comment, where is the logic? Atleast the Libs are consistent, you lot have no logical justification to not just shrugging over China.

    That’s why y’all have been reduced to reaching.

    A. China may well be rich in the future, it will never be richer than the USA.

    B. Other than the fact that it is literally impossible to buy a sovereign State without occupation, if one were to judge by the source of money sloshing around your country, your ‘owners’ are the Gulf Arabs and the Israelites. Do you feel less sovereign?

    Like I wrote initially, you guys are merely rallying to the flag, despite the policy being against your earlier stated interests.

  113. Anonymous[141] • Disclaimer says:

    The explanation I heard in the military was that it was CIA trying to horn in on Defense Mapping Agency and fucking it up. (Standard wanting to be part of the action and thus messing up things…see the whole JTF concept.) When I did hear a conspiracy theory it was the nuclear spying slap, not your idea. That said, I go with the initial (fuckup) theory.

    FWIW, we also bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan in late 90s. Not really contested. Even paid the claims.

  114. @JMcG
    @Lurker

    The sky is big and bullets are small.

    Replies: @Lurker

    I think I kind of touched on that actually.

  115. @Mr Mox
    @Lurker

    For a great history of the stealth fighter (and other interesting stuff) I wholeheartedly reckomend "Skunk Works" by Ben. R Rich, the former boss of Lockheed's legendary Skunk Works.

    At one point they are going to demonstrate a mock-up plane's radar stealth for some important people. They run a final test only to discover the plane lights up like a Christmas three on the radar screen. A visual inspection turns out the culprit is a crow perching on top of the mock-up...

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Joe Stalin, @Lurker

    Thanks, I have read it.

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