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New Angle Video Shows Adam "Lil Homicide" Toledo Surreptitiously Ditching His Smoking Gun
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The New York Times news section has a pretty good explanation of the last second of the life of 13-year-old gang-banger “Lil Homicide” Toledo:

A Chase and a Fatal Split-Second Decision: How an Officer Killed Adam Toledo

In just under one second, the 13-year-old from Chicago appeared to toss away a handgun and turn with his hands raised before being shot.

By Christoph Koettl and Evan Hill
April 16, 2021

Body camera footage released by an independent city agency in Chicago on Thursday showed Police Officer Eric E. Stillman fatally shoot 13-year-old Adam Toledo following an early-morning foot chase on March 29 on the city’s West Side.

… The main confrontation — in which Adam appears to toss a handgun aside before turning with his hands raised, and Officer Stillman shoots him — is over in less than a second.

Because the shooting occurred so quickly, we identified key frames from the video to better understand what happened.

Here is what they show.

Officer Stillman’s body camera footage begins as he and his partner are responding to a report of gunfire in the Little Village neighborhood at 2:36 a.m. Two minutes later, Officer Stillman exits his car and begins chasing two people on foot down an alley that runs behind South Sawyer Avenue.

Officer Stillman shoves one man to the ground, leaving him for his partner, and continues chasing Adam with his gun drawn. “Police, stop, stop right now!” he shouts, adding a vulgarity.

Seventeen seconds into the chase, Adam slows down, and Officer Stillman catches up to him.

He shouts at Adam to show his hands.

The flashlight attached to Officer Stillman’s gun illuminates a handgun in Adam’s right hand.

“Drop it!” Officer Stillman shouts.

Adam begins turning toward him.

Video from a security camera mounted on a nearby school appears to show Adam tossing the handgun behind a fence as he turns.

The action is not visible on the body camera footage. But as Adam faces Officer Stillman, his hands are raised and he is no longer holding the gun.

Officer Stillman shouts “drop it!” again as Adam turns, but less than a second later, he fires one shot, and Adam falls to the ground.

So, here’s what seems to have happened: Adam Toledo as out in the wee hours with an adult criminal who, for reasons I haven’t seen, fired eight shots from his handgun. (By the way, when Establishmentarians argue that the gun was “empty,” that’s because it had just been fired eight times.) The cops rolled up and the adult gave the gun to the juvenile, probably because what’s the worst that could happen to a 13 year old caught with a smoking gun: juvie hall?

Lil Homicide ran with the gun visible in his right hand, but couldn’t outrun the cop. So he decided to surreptitiously ditch the gun behind the fence, turn around, and raise his hands.

Granted, that’s a pretty dumb plan because if he’d submitted to arrest, the cop would have demanded to know what happened to the gun, and, not finding the gun he’d seen on him anymore, have called for backup to look for it.

But because Toledo had intentionally hidden his tossing of the gun with his body from the view of the policeman in the hope of not getting charged with possession of a smoking gun, his turning around and raising his right arm looked to the cop like he was going to shoot.

Now, if the cop had major league third baseman reflexes, he might possibly have stopped himself from firing at the last microsecond. But if he did have NHL hockey goalie reflexes, he wouldn’t be a cop, now would he?

iSteve commenter Tusk notes:

Looking at the bodycam footage, by counting the frames and estimating the footage at 30fps, there was 0.67 second between when the cop last saw the gun, didn’t see it being discarded due to being blocked by the body, and then seeing the hands come up. As Steve always says, the cop made the choice to come home that night. He had no idea the gun was discarded and instead saw him raising the hand that just was holding a gun, 0.67 second ago, up at him.

iSteve commenter T notes:

The cop only fired one shot. Chicago PD procedure is to fire three; he most likely noticed that he had dropped the gun and stopped shooting.

Brooks Robinson in the 1970 World Series would have had the reflexes to stop himself from pulling the trigger at the last millisecond.

 
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  1. If he had the gun in his hand when he turned to face the cop, the shooting would have been justified by the supporters of the cop because he had a gun in his hand. It is pretty clear from the video he had no gun in his hand when he raised his hands.

  2. It shows a government employee shooting an unarmed male because the government employee never learned the most basic of rules, YOU DO NOT SHOOT UNTIL YOU ID YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT. The cop did not make sure the male was armed and a threat before he fired his weapon. His finger should not have even been on the trigger. Bad shoot all the way around.

    • Disagree: JMcG
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Mike1
    , @NickG
  3. Polistra says:

    Old news! Today it’s Austin Texas.

    Why is it that in Biden’s America these things are happening daily?

    And how many misspellings are in the photo captions above?

    • Replies: @CCZ
    , @Old Prude
  4. Do we really have to spend out lives tediously parsing and analyzing these incidents:

    — Did the Gentle Giant have his hands up. (No he was actually rushing towards the cop.)
    — Was Saint George asphyxiated? (No he OD.) Was there a point where Derek Chauvin should have released his knee hold?
    — What were the cops supposed to do after Jacob Blake refused arrest, shook off the taser and tried to get into a car that wasn’t his, with kids whom he did not have custody of?
    — What should the cops do when Daunte Wright refuses to be arrested on outstanding warrant (for sticking a gun in a woman’s face and trying to take her rent money)?
    — Was Pentland too rude to the crazy man who was harassing the girl?
    — Could Strickland have detected that Lil Homicide had ditched his gun?

    On and on … and on …

    Let’s skip all these wasted cycles and have separate nations and pleasant lives instead.

    • Agree: Brian Reilly, Redman
    • Thanks: JimDandy
  5. JimDandy says:

    Thanks for this. And Don Lemon concurs, apparently. I think the more Machiavellian BLM types might have a flow chart:


    *Cop Shoots White Person
    IGNORE

    *Cop Shoots Black Person
    CALL FOR AMERICA TO BE BURNED TO THE GROUND

    *Cop Shoots Brown Person
    SHOW THAT WE UNDERSTAND NUANCE

    • Agree: fish
  6. Do you think Gilbert Gottfried is funny?

    This is funny.

    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
  7. 3g4me says:
    @AnotherDad

    @1 AnotherDad: But that’s Sailer’s raison d’etre – endlessly parsing Jevvish hypocrisy, Asian triumphalism, black dysfunction. And whatever would his commentariat do, who never, ever move on from tediously parsing others’ dysfunction while proudly trumpeting their own ethnic/racial origins (Jack D, Twinkie, Physicist Dave, etc.). Oh, and hawking their favorite boomer songs/band/movies. That’s really all Sailer and his commenters do, day after day, year after year, world without end.

  8. El Dato says:

    Not much to say. Dual mistake:

    1) Throwing the gun away in a way that the Man in Blue couldn’t see it
    2) Turning around at all.

    The basis is: you want to communicate intentions clearly lest your opponent thinks you want to go vabanque.

    Some say it’s just a kid. But it’s a kid with a gun.

    It was a bad situation that ended badly. You do not solve this situation at the last 200ms but hours, months or years earlier.

    • Thanks: TWS
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  9. @AnotherDad

    No separate nations. Open borders and diversity quotas everywhere (except Israel).
    One world govt, with Biden overseeing everything.

    • Replies: @Wade Hampton
    , @e
    , @WJ
    , @AceDeuce
    , @Anon
  10. vhrm says:

    The fact that he had his flashlight on strobe/dazzle mode makes it even more likely he wouldn’t see a quick detail such as a gun being dropped since it interferes with the brain’s ability to see motion.

    Given the way our brains work and the speed at which this whole thing happened it is unlikely that the officer knows or can know exactly what went into his (brain’s) decision to fire with any confidence.

    Anyway, imo, this one is in the “ideally he wouldn’t have shot, and it’s unfortunate that he did, but it’s acceptable” category.

    • Agree: gandydancer, gandydancer
    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Anon
  11. Toledo’s big mistake was turning around. Why turn around to face the cop except to shoot?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @e
  12. Don’t care about the details. Black criminal gets shot. Ho hum.

    Policemen patrolling the wild animal parks need our sympathy and support. This includes Chauvin and Potter. Perhaps this approach is too close to the Karl Urban “Judge Dredd” model, but I think that is where we are trending.

    Here are the alternatives:

    1) Support mostly sane police currently patrolling the wild animal parks.
    2) Or don’t and wall off the parks and let them descend into chaos.

    • Replies: @Wade Hampton
  13. JimDandy says:
    @AnotherDad

    And Jacob Blake admits he had a knife in his hand.

  14. @Wade Hampton

    Has Trevor Lynch reviewed the Urban “Judge Dredd”?

    “Go away now.”

  15. anonymous[288] • Disclaimer says:
    @vhrm

    Anyway, imo, this one is in the “ideally he wouldn’t have shot, and it’s unfortunate that he did, but it’s acceptable” category.

    Toledo by his own decisions and actions put the officer in the position of having to use deadly force.

    Toledo’s nickname was “Lil’ Homicide,” which could suggest he had killed someone previously.

  16. Angharad says:

    That little brat’s family and race got him killed. WHY was a 13 year old out at 2:30AM with adult criminals? Shooting that little wannaba gangster is a case of simply crime prevention.

  17. syonredux says:

    Maybe Black Americans need to take a vacation…..

    Being Black in America is exhausting

    “Everyone I know is just so tired,” tweeted Jenna Wortham of the New York Times Magazine on Wednesday. While the Black writer doesn’t specify who “everyone” is, it’s a good bet they are also Black. And Wortham’s use of “tired” is an understatement.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/17/being-black-america-is-exhausting/

    • Replies: @Wade Hampton
  18. @syonredux

    I hear Togo is nice this time of year.

  19. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ben tillman

    He was a 13 year old boy who didn’t know any better.

    The whole story doesn’t really fit Steve’s sardonic take since even the NYT called the shooting a split second decision and isn’t calling to sacrifice the officer involved on the altar of wokeism. It’s already been established that no one is rioting when a hispanic juvenile is killed, and all of the media attention on this is simply piggy backing on the stories of black criminals whose deaths are the real tragedies.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  20. Imagine what Jimmy Hatlo could have done with Li’l Homicide.


  21. t says:

    A reporter at the local NPR station is upset that not all Mexicans are blaming the police. Notice how the reporter introduces completely unrelated information like the botched smoke stack implosion that was legitimately bad.

    https://www.wbez.org/stories/little-village-residents-grapple-with-the-tragic-police-killing-of-adam-toledo/b2f394a3-7cd8-42e7-b99d-63bbc6bb6cdc?utm_source=Newsletter_Weekly-Non-Member&utm_medium=WBEZEmail&utm_campaign=News_Newsletter_Weekly-Rundown_News_20210417&utm_content=4%2F17%2F2021&DE=WBEZEmail

  22. @Chris Mallory

    The cops saw that the suspect was armed before he turned around.

    • Replies: @Cortes
  23. Anonymous[867] • Disclaimer says:
    @El Dato

    Some say it’s just a kid. But it’s a kid with a gun.

    Why does it matter whether it is a “kid” or an “adult”?

  24. @greysquirrell

    Brooks Robinson wouldn’t have pulled the trigger. Nor would have Dominik Hasek.

  25. Jack D says:
    @greysquirrell

    Do you understand that literally 1 second earlier he had a gun in his hand? So he was “unarmed” when the cop shot him, right? “Police shoot unarmed teenager of color” – that’s true, right?

  26. Cortes says:
    @Steve Sailer

    One of Joseph Wambaugh’s novels (?Hollywood Hills?) has a shooting incident in a famous cemetery in which the suspect is shot by police while turning towards the officers holding his pistol by the trigger guard…like in a movie. Totally believable. And armchair critics have the gall to second guess a police officer in such circumstances?

    Given his own M.O., I think Wambaugh has used a real-life incident supplied by one of his police contacts.

  27. t says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The cop only fired one shot CPD procedure is to fire three he most likely noticed that he had dropped the gun and stopped shooting. I think there are some questions about CPD procedrue that were raised by this incident see these tweets by Peter Moskos:

    • Replies: @t
    , @Pat Kittle
  28. You nailed it, Steve.

    I don’t like cops — but they really are kind of average shmoes.

    I’d like to see just one of their critics face a situation like this and guarantee that they would make the right choice.

    Almost tediously, for the last six years, these ‘racist cop killings’ tend to revolve around some average schmo making an instantaneous call — and guessing wrong.

    Or even right. He still gets nailed. Fuck. I’ve been in situations close enough to these. You do shit — and then afterwards give a review.

    At the time, there isn’t time. There’s no time at all.

    …except for Ashli Babbitt. The one obvious unjustified homicide in the last six years — and guess what?

    • Agree: wren
    • Replies: @e
  29. @JohnnyWalker123

    Bush the Lesser is a low IQ clown.

  30. Muggles says:
    @3g4me

    That’s really all Sailer and his commenters do, day after day, year after year, world without end.

    Yet you come to this site and post this comment why?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @3g4me
  31. t says:
    @t

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    , @vhrm
  32. e says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Bush is respected by no one.

    He’s totally irrelevant. Really bad President.

    Get lost, you idiot.

  33. wren says:
    @3g4me

    An excuse to hawk elfman!

  34. e says:
    @Ben tillman

    Bush is respected by no one.

    He’s totally irrelevant. Really bad President.

    Get lost, you idiot.

    • Replies: @mc23
  35. CCZ says:
    @Polistra

    “Police Chief Joseph Chacon named Stephen Broderick, 41, as a tentative suspect and said officials decided to release Broderick’s name because he was not in custody and he was considered armed and dangerous.”

    “Records show Broderick, a former Travis County sheriff’s office detective, is facing charges of sexual assault of a child. Broderick was booked into jail in June and spent 16 days behind bars before posting bail, which was set at $50,000.”

    https://www.fox7austin.com/news/tcso-detective-charged-with-sexual-assault-of-a-child

  36. WJ says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    It pains me to admit that I voted for this dumb chimp in 2000, The epitome of invade the world /invite the world.

  37. @3g4me

    And whatever would his commentariat do, who never, ever move on from tediously parsing others’ dysfunction while proudly trumpeting their own ethnic/racial origins

    As opposed to what you do?

    • Replies: @3g4me
  38. mc23 says:

    Not too long ago the parents of “Lil Homicide” Toledo would have been investigated for parental neglect.

  39. mc23 says:
    @e

    Bush, he failed bring to Democracy to 3rd World slums but he did manage to over look the the flooding of 3rd World slum dwellers into the land he was sworn to protect.

    Under his leadership blood and treasure were flushed away.

    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
  40. Mike Tre says:
    @greysquirrell

    We need more people like you to become police, that way we have less people like you.

  41. e says:
    @Colin Wright

    This cop was a former Marine. I suspect that means his reflexes were better than most of ours would be.

  42. Twinkie says:
    @Muggles

    Yet you come to this site and post this comment why?

    Because he hopes against hope that he’ll get some attention. He seems to have a weird obsession about me. Someone who reads a couple of other “dissident” (I think he meant WN) sites wrote to tell me that he brought me up and badmouthed me randomly on those sites. Creepy and weird.

    • LOL: 3g4me
  43. Twinkie says:
    @AnotherDad

    Was Saint George asphyxiated? (No he OD.) Was there a point where Derek Chauvin should have released his knee hold?

    Just because Officer Stillman may have engaged in a good shoot doesn’t mean other officers in your list did everything correctly. I’m pretty pro-cop – you can read my previous comments about these kinds of encounters. I don’t have any sympathy for these lowlife criminals. But what Chauvin did was pretty questionable to say the least. Once the suspect is restrained and handcuffed behind his back, you sit him up on his ass. You don’t continue to compress his neck/chest facedown, especially when he goes limp.

    One of the first things taught when you learn how to do carotid-strangulation in Judo/Jujitsu is to cease compression on the neck and chest and immediately turn the person over once he goes limp. Otherwise there is real danger of a serious bodily harm (e.g. stroke) or even death.

    That’s why most police forces don’t allow any kind of neck restraint with a hard object (e.g. PR-24 baton) – because of low sensitivity – and teach their officers to sit up the arrestee once a proper restraint is effectuated.

    It’s pretty clear that Floyd had a large amount of narcotics in his system, but it’s not a given that those alone killed him. The coroner found the drugs and the forceful and continued restraint contributed to his death.

    Being a police officer requires a lot of self- and emotional-control. He is not a solider or a warrior. He has to be level-headed and do the right things even when the suspect had been violent and uncooperative. He can’t lose his cool even once. He can’t punish the suspect for his earlier behavior. That’s why he gets paid well and is authorized to use lethal force by the state.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @anon
    , @Anon
  44. Mike1 says:
    @Chris Mallory

    The idiocy of statements like this are just so much higher because you fancy yourself a gun safety expert. The cop KNEW the kid was armed and his finger should not have been on the trigger?!

    You identify what is behind an armed suspect before deciding to fire?

    This is not a gun range or your uncle’s farm you simpering fool. This was a real life chase with real guns in an alley.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • LOL: Aeronerauk
  45. @Jack D

    He didn’t have a gun when he faced the cop and his hands were up. Are we now saying it is ok to shoot anyone who has a gun, regardless if they are about to shoot someone or not?

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  46. Hibernian says:
    @greysquirrell

    What part of “one second” don’t you understand?

  47. Anonymous[410] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    But what Chauvin did was pretty questionable to say the least. Once the suspect is restrained and handcuffed behind his back, you sit him up on his ass.

    —Even when he is in the middle of a street?
    —Even when he is undergoing a medical emergency?
    —Even when you are expecting an ambulance within minutes if not seconds?
    —Even when you are being threatened by a hostile crowd?

    You don’t continue to compress his neck/chest facedown, especially when he goes limp.

    —Was Chauvin “compressing” his neck?
    —How much pressure was on his neck? Not a significant amount, judging by the fact that he was conscious and talking for five minutes.
    —Does this supposed rule apply to all areas of the neck?
    —Was Chauvin actually applying pressure to the neck or to the upper back?
    —Did Chauvin know he had gone limp amid all the chaos that was happening? An officer’s first duty is to secure the scene and keep himself safe.

    One of the first things taught when you learn how to do carotid-strangulation in Judo/Jujitsu is to cease compression on the neck and chest and immediately turn the person over once he goes limp. Otherwise there is real danger of a serious bodily harm (e.g. stroke) or even death.

    —This was not by any of the evidence a “carotid-strangulation”. Therefore, there was no reason to follow your protocol for carotid strangulation, even if it applied in a law enforcement subdual situation and in the context of a menacing crowd.

    It’s pretty clear that Floyd had a large amount of narcotics in his system, but it’s not a given that those alone killed him.

    —Floyd died of a heart attack from the stress of resisting arrest. It may have been aggravated by the drugs in his system. Nothing Chauvin did restricted Floyd’s airway or kept sufficient blood flow from reaching his brain.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Twinkie
  48. 3g4me says:
    @Muggles

    @30 Muggles: Don’t mind me, dear. Didn’t mean to disturb your slumber.

  49. JimDandy says:
    @t

    Yeah, a 13-year-old gangbanger known as “Lil Homicide” was out with a pal shooting up an urban residential neighborhood in the wee hours until he started running away from cops down a dark alley with a gun in his hand and he ended up getting shot, so the #1 takeaway should definitely be: “Police need to do better.”

    • Thanks: TWS, Pat Kittle
    • Replies: @Pat Kittle
  50. Twinkie says:
    @Twinkie

    Note the lack of denial.

  51. Anon[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @vhrm

    Anyway, imo, this one is in the “ideally he wouldn’t have shot, and it’s unfortunate that he did, but it’s acceptable” category.

    A sane nation wouldn’t consider this kid’s death all that unfortunate. Given the way he was living his life, there is a very high likelihood that he would have eventually killed someone on his own, in one way or another.

    Unfortunate that his life arrived at this point? Yes.

    Unfortunate that after making all those choices the cop killed him? Nope.

  52. Anon[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Former President George W. Bush said Sunday he wants Congress to tone down its “harsh rhetoric about immigration” and to pass comprehensive reforms to the system.

    Bush needs to remind us of all of the highlights of his administration before going on about immigration.

    During his campaign he objected to “racial profiling” – the kind that might have stopped 19 Islamic terrorists.

    9/11 happened on his watch, and he may have ignored evidence it was happening.

    Right after 9/11 he allowed 13 members of Bin Laden’s family to leave the country instead of declaring them prisoners of war.

    He launched two wars, one of which was pointless and the other of which might as well have been. We are still in Afghanistan 20 years later.

    In over 7 years, he failed to capture Bin Laden.

    He inherited a budget surplus from Bill Clinton Clinton and a Republican Congress and left us massive budget deficits as far as the eye can see.

    He allowed at least 5 million illegal immigrants (probably more) into the country, not to mention millions of anchor babies.

    He left office with an economy in absolute shambles and with a culture that was moving ever farther to the Left, having made no attempt to stop it. He handed over the White House to a man named Barack Hussein Obama.

    At the end of the Bush Administration there were still a lot of Republicans saying they liked him, but eight years later almost every Republican was willing to vote for anyone but his brother Jeb.

  53. Anonymous[428] • Disclaimer says:

    This case is a closer fit to the shooting of Ashli Babbitt than the Daunte Wright case.

    But note well: even here on isteve, the commenters speak of how unfortunate it was that the police officer shot Toledo. No one on the other side says that about the killing of Ashli.

  54. vhrm says:
    @t

    After seeing videos of or reading about dozens of use of force incidents the yelling, conflicting / dangerous instructions and people getting shot when following them or reaching for the wallet etc. are definitely something that stands out.

    Having 3 cops each yelling one of “don’t move”, “keep your hands up” and “get out of the car” (or get on the ground) at the same time is not a recipe for a good outcome.

    Standardizing on that “don’t move” as an initial baseline and then instituting a procedure that only one cop will give commands definitely sound like good things (although how that realtime leader election protocol would work idk. 1st one on the scene ? 1st one counterclockwise from straight ahead of the primary vehicle involved ? )

  55. Tusk says:
    @greysquirrell

    Looking at the bodycam footage, by counting the frames and estimating the footage at 30fps, there was 0.67 second between when the cop last saw the gun, didn’t see it being discarded due to being blocked by the body, and then seeing the hands come up. As Steve always says, the cop made the choice to come home that night. He had no idea the gun was discarded and instead saw him raising the hand that just was holding a gun, 0.67 second ago, up at him.

    • Agree: Twinkie
    • Thanks: Hibernian
  56. Twinkie says:
    @Anonymous

    —Even when he is in the middle of a street?
    —Even when he is undergoing a medical emergency?
    —Even when you are expecting an ambulance within minutes if not seconds?

    Those are all the more reasons to not to leave someone unconscious facedown, let alone continue to restrain him in that position.

    —Even when you are being threatened by a hostile crowd?

    Was the crowd hostile or distressed that a man was dying right before its eyes? Moreover, as a defense witness admitted, the hostility of a nearby crowd does not entitle a police officer to use excessive force against the arrestee. And let us not forget that Chauvin was not by himself. He had several other officers doing crowd control and had injected himself into an arrest that had already occurred.

    —Did Chauvin know he had gone limp amid all the chaos that was happening?

    Even a colleague who was not actively restraining Floyd realized that he was unconscious/unresponsive.

    —This was not by any of the evidence a “carotid-strangulation”. Therefore, there was no reason to follow your protocol for carotid strangulation, even if it applied in a law enforcement subdual situation and in the context of a menacing crowd.

    “Menacing crowd.” Okay. What acts of aggression were the onlookers committing?

    Moreover, you complete skipped over the reason I brought up the strangulation – “to cease compression on the neck and chest and immediately turn the person over once he goes limp. Otherwise there is real danger of a serious bodily harm (e.g. stroke) or even death.” The issue isn’t how the arrestee was rendered unconscious. The issue is that once an arrestee is restrained and handcuffed, there should not be continued force on him while he is face/chest down on the ground. He shouldn’t even be allowed to lie in that way even in absence of force, because his own body weight compresses his chest. That’s why a colleague of Chauvin reportedly suggested that they turn him over once he was limp.

    Nothing Chauvin did restricted Floyd’s airway or kept sufficient blood flow from reaching his brain.

    Airway is not the issue (and frankly less of a concern because asphyxiation takes much longer than causing unconsciousness by restricting blood flow to the brain, which can be done by compressing one side of neck). If you are unconscious face-down and I put my weight down on your back, neck, and/or back of the head, I can potentially cause a serious injury to you or cause death in a relatively short period of time. It’s just not something you are supposed to do once you have a arrestee restrained and handcuffed behind the back.

    • Replies: @TWS
  57. anon[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Perhaps you should have been following the trial. Then you would know the actual evidence presented the jury,

    Start here.

    https://legalinsurrection.com/?s=chauvin

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  58. Twinkie says:
    @Anonymous

    By the way, Chauvin has a history of restraining arrestees on their stomachs/chests on the ground and putting his weight on him even after restraint has been achieved: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/04/01/derek-chauvin-trial-past-violence-force-arrestee-george-floyd/7020506002/

    Also, read the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin published in 1996 regarding this type of restraint: https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/suspect-restraint-and-sudden-death

    https://charlydmiller.com/LIB/1996reayFBI.html

    Even if police officers take precautions, hog-tied and prone restraint is inherently risky. Therefore, instructors should emphasize awareness and vigilance when teaching police officers how to use hog-tied restraint properly. To minimize the potential for injury or death, police officers should get hog-tied subjects off their stomach, determine whether subjects have used drugs or suffer from cardiac or respiratory diseases, monitor subjects carefully for breathing difficulties, be prepared to administer cardiopulmonary resuscitation, obtain medical assistance immediately if necessary, and inform detention facility custodians of pre- existing medical conditions and respiratory difficulties.

    Although this caution is particularly warranted when the arrestee is hogtied or is under Hobble restraint, it applies to any situation in which the arrestee is chest/face down and weight is being applied on this back/neck/head.

  59. Twinkie says:
    @anon

    Most of the articles in that link have nothing to do with the facts of the case.

    By the way, don’t mistake my position on Chauvin’s behavior to infer that I support the current prosecution. It’s obviously been highly racialized and politicized. I do not believe that Chauvin is getting a fair trial. That said, I also think that he used poor judgment and unnecessary force and, given his history of this type of behavior, should no longer be a police officer.

    • Replies: @anon
  60. Sean says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Lord Jim would have. It was no game.

    If Stillman thought Adam might be holding a gun, why tell him “Show me your hands” ?

    How could Adam obey that lawful command without giving Stillman an excuse to shoot, which was the safest decision for him to take?

    Like the protagonist of Conrad’s novel, Stillman wanted to be a good guy and did his duty bravely right up to the point where he was actually in the moment of an extremely threatening situation, whereupon the natural selection unconscious override came into play.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  61. anon[676] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Most of the articles in that link have nothing to do with the facts of the case.

    Are you asserting that video testimony from the courtroom – actual evidence – and trial excerpts are not relevant to the facts of the case? That the testimony of the chief medical examiner has nothing to do with the facts of the case?

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-10-chief-medical-examiner-in-the-hot-seat/

    What would you consider relevant? Editorials from Charles Blow? Hot takes from Rachel Maddow?

    I repeat:

    Perhaps you should have been following the trial. Then you would know the actual evidence presented the jury.

    At this time, your opinion is based on ignorance.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  62. Nachum says:

    You have to love the use of “Adam.” For another perspective, I give you Sherlock Holmes:

    “That fellow will rise from crime to crime until he does something very bad, and ends on a gallows.”

    Or to put it more starkly, Frank Miller’s Dark Knight Returns: A bunch of Two-Face’s goons, attempting a terror attack, blow themselves up. Witnessing it, Batman observes, “Leaving the world no poorer, four men die.”

    Are we Allowed To observe that these days?

  63. He literally tried to fence the gun by dumping it so he could then accuse the cop of racial profiling when he deedn’t have no steenking gun.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  64. Twinkie says:
    @anon

    I followed your link – it led to a site with lots of editorials. If you have specific testimony in mind, link to it directly. Don’t waste my time.

    Editorials from Charles Blow? Hot takes from Rachel Maddow?

    That’s just an imbecilic hyperbole.

    At this time, your opinion is based on ignorance.

    Which opinion would that be? If you are not trolling, be more specific.

    • Replies: @anon
  65. Twinkie says:
    @Sean

    How could Adam obey that lawful command without giving Stillman an excuse to shoot, which was the safest decision for him to take?

    If you just had a gun and you suspected the police officer in pursuit of you knew that, you ought to immediately freeze, raise your hands slowly, drop to your knees, and lie down on your stomach and chest. Turning around is usually a sign of aggression, not surrender or flight, and is liable to trigger a violent response.

    Now, should a 13 year-old have known that? No. But he also shouldn’t have been out accompanying an armed, violent criminal and disposing of evidence for him either. That, even a 13 year-old is supposed to know. The boy’s death is on him, on the adults who were supposedly responsible for him, and most definitely on the criminal who gave him the gun.

    I feel terrible for the brave officer who was forced to kill a boy. He did nothing wrong, but he is going to be haunted by that all his life even if he is legally cleared and even if the media leaves him alone (which these days is hardly guaranteed).

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  66. Old Prude says:
    @Polistra

    The megaphone is ramping up for gun grabbing, so they are flooding the zone with shootings…

    • Replies: @Sick 'n Tired
  67. @Anonymous

    You are correct. This cannot be turned into a Beaner Lives Matter moment. After all none of these people have been personally enslaved by Whitey for the past five hundred and two years.

  68. Sean says:

    If you just had a gun and you suspected the police officer in pursuit of you knew that, you ought to immediately freeze, raise your hands slowly, drop to your knees, and lie down on your stomach and chest.

    Why did Stillman not instruct Adam to do that then? It ought to be safest to do exactly what the cop tells you to do, but Adam died obeying the orders Stillman actually did give. Adam was going to be shot when he obeyed the command “Show me your hands”, whether he had a gun in his hand or not. The proof of that is he did obey that command, his hands were empty, and he was instantly shot.

    I feel terrible for the brave officer who was forced to kill a boy. He did nothing wrong, but he is going to be haunted by that all his life even if he is legally cleared and even if the media leaves him alone (which these days is hardly guaranteed).

    What Stillman did in chasing someone with a gun was brave, but his courage was not equal to the far more challenging situation when the kid gave up. However, killing Adam was pretty good shooting for someone who had been running and whose eyes were playing tricks on him, as Stillman’s must have been if he really thought he saw a gun in the brightly illuminated hand of Adam while he obeyed the order to show his hands. And not for the merest split second either, because Stillman had time to register the (imaginary) firearm, say “Drop it!” and was half way though repeating that command when he fired.

    He did nothing wrong, but he is going to be haunted by that all his life even if he is legally cleared and even if the media leaves him alone (which these days is hardly guaranteed).

    In view of the fact that when alive he was shot for holding a spectral weapon, maybe Adam’s ghost will have a real gun in his hand when he calls on Stillman.

    • Replies: @TWS
    , @MarkinLA
  69. I had a discussion with a 60 yo black guy recently and he said he’d been hassled by the cops here in flyover country in the past few years. He said they pulled him over for a busted tail light and he somehow would up handcuffed in the cop car. He was kinda vague on just what made the cops do that, but he has kind of a smart mouth so maybe that was it.

    Then he said he managed to work the handcuffs around his feet so that his hands were in front of his body and this pissed the cops off. I gently pointed out that this was not exactly cooperative behavior and he said he was just trying to get comfortable.

    He’s not dumb and a good guy with a job and all, but he seemed to think he had a lot of options in this situation. I told him I would have just cooperated with a lot of Yessirs, because contempt of cop is not a good idea.

    We’d been drinking so I dropped this subject and asked him just what he thought the cop should have done with George Floyd. After much hemming and hawing, he said he just didn’t know.

  70. Jiminy says:

    People should probably get used to these incidences happening more often in the future, as something like this could be a precursor to the technique of precognition. The police have cameras at their disposal, along with computerised gunshot locators. Maybe soon these areas will be patrolled by the new robot dogs, armed to the teeth. Sure he was a teen, but how many victims would he roll or kill in the coming years. I think society can be satisfied that they didn’t shoot the man who would discover the cure for cancer in twenty years time.

  71. 3g4me says:
    @Johann Ricke

    @ 37 Johann Ricke: What I do in meatspace is none of your business. Online, I promote White people. You promote Jevvs. There’s a difference.

  72. anon[210] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    I followed your link – it led to a site with lots of editorials.

    Perhaps you need to learn how to better operate a browser, or improve your reading skills. “Liveblogging of the trial by noted defense attorney Andrew Branca” and “editorials” are not the same things. Especially when the liveblogging contains embedded video of court testimony, testimony that is relevant to the incorrect statements you have made regarding the trial. Incorrect statements that make it clear you are not actually following the trial, but getting “news” from biased sources.

    If you have specific testimony in mind, link to it directly.

    Already did that. Here is one again. Pay attention this time.

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-10-chief-medical-examiner-in-the-hot-seat/

    That is liveblogging of “Chauvin Trial Day 10 Chief Medical Examiner In The Hot Seat”

    The “Chief Medical Examiner” testified. That testimony is relevant to the case. Do you understand what “testimony” is, in a US criminal court, or must that be explained to you as well?

    Don’t waste my time.

    You are doing that just fine by yourself, and apparently intent on wasting the time of other people as well. There is an English proverb about horses, water, and drinking. Do you know of it? Can you explain it to yourself, please?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  73. Hibernian says:
    @greysquirrell

    The time between the decedent turning to face the officer with his hands raised and the impact of the round on the decedent was almost certainly less than the officer’s (reasonable) reaction time plus time of flight of the bullet. The decedent was in flight with the gun until the last minute after having acted as accomplice very soon after the fact to a 20 year old adult in the firing of eight rounds in an intensely populated area (attempted murder, aggravated assault, or at the very least reckless endangerment.)

    The 13 year old boy(Sean Hannity, you were wrong, although he had committed a grown man’s crime.) was truly a very dangerous fleeing felon. The gun was obscured from view, deliberately by him, at the time he dropped it, likely to beat weapons charges for which he likely would have been treated lightly as an especially young juvenile. (The 20 year old was counting on this.) BTW, we don’t hear anything about this 20 y.o. from the media.

  74. Hibernian says:
    @Whataboutery2020

    I’d say he was just ditching it to beat a gun charge.

  75. Hibernian says:
    @Twinkie

    Turning around is usually a sign of aggression, not surrender or flight, and is liable to trigger a violent response.

    Now, should a 13 year-old have known that? No. But he also shouldn’t have been out accompanying an armed, violent criminal and disposing of evidence for him either. That, even a 13 year-old is supposed to know.

    This.

    even if the media leaves him alone (which these days is hardly guaranteed).

    I’d say it’s guaranteed that the media, academia, and the political Left will hound him for a long time.

    • Agree: Twinkie
  76. Anon[367] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    A thousand times yes, it’s remarkable how most people on this site don’t get this, if the races were reversed they would’ve been crying bloody murder.

    • Thanks: Twinkie
  77. TWS says:
    @Twinkie

    You know less than you think you do about this.

    The only thing you have right is about the positional asphyxiation. Even there your understanding is flawed.

    One on the neck, one on the deck did not kill him. Being on his chest for two minutes did not kill him. Drugs killed him.

    I get it. You took a self defense class and think you understand this. You don’t.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  78. TWS says:
    @Sean

    Why are you playing internet smart boy? Does it give you the same little thrill when you corrected your teacher?

    • Replies: @Sean
  79. Anon[137] • Disclaimer says:

    We are getting more alleged incidents of police misconduct because of video recording of police.

    I live in Chicago. We had a cop, named John Burge, who was investigated for torturing criminal suspects in the 1980s

    It was years later that video recording of the interrogation of criminal suspects was mandated by law in Illinois.

    If something like the shooting of Adam Toledo happened say in the 1950s, the incident would be reported that the suspect showed his gun and the cop fired in self defense. There were no witnesses. Case closed.

    I wonder how much police got away with in pre video recording days.

  80. Hibernian says:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ruben-roman-man-who-was-with-adam-toledo-when-he-was-shot-by-police-released-after-posting-bond-for-felony-gun-charges/ar-BB1fPd1e?ocid=msedgntp

    The guy who handed off the gun to the kid bonded out – although the charge he was charged with was on top of another charge for a previous incident.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
  81. Twinkie says:
    @anon

    You still haven’t identified which opinion of mine you find to be in “ignorance.”

    • Replies: @anon
  82. Twinkie says:
    @TWS

    You took a self defense class and think you understand this. You don’t.

    I have been training Judo for 40 years and Jujitsu for over 20. I have extensive training in small arms, blade, and impact weapons as well as unarmed fighting.

    “A self defense class”? Why don’t you engage me in a discussion about any of these topics and find out how much you know and I know?

    • Replies: @David Davenport
  83. @Steve Sailer

    Brooks Robinson wouldn’t have pulled the trigger. Nor would have Dominik Hasek.

    Nah. All cops should be trained to only shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand, like the Sheriffs in the old western movies.

    • Replies: @Sean
  84. anon[138] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    You still haven’t identified which opinion of mine you find to be in “ignorance.”

    Pretty much your entire opinion on the Chauvin case, in this thread, is obviously based on ignorance.

    That is why I generously offered a link to you where you could learn more about the actual evidence presented in the case. A link you clearly could not or did not bother to look at. Or maybe you could not understand what attorney Branca was presenting?

    Either way, my apologies for wasting your time with facts and sworn court testimony.

    • Troll: Twinkie
  85. @JohnnyWalker123

    Gilbert is one of those comedians where you either find him funny, or you hate him. I enjoy his humor and impressions, used to love when he was a guest on Howard Stern. Here he is with another great comedian Norm MacDonald.

    • Thanks: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
  86. @mc23

    Flushed right into the hands of his family and father’s cronies in the CIA, Military Industrial Complex, and their insulated offshore bank accounts.

  87. @Old Prude

    They don’t need to grab guns any more, have you tried to buy ammo, or reloading materials recently? It’s next to impossible, which renders guns for most people who haven’t been stockpiling ammo the last few years, gunless.

  88. MarkinLA says:
    @Sean

    Why didn’t he just drop the gun instead of throwing it resulting in his body hiding it? Why didn’t he just drop the gun while running and lift his hands up when he stopped without turning to the cop. He was too clever by half, he thought he could ditch the gun and claim he never had one – a bet he lost.

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  89. MarkinLA says:

    I don’t know why everybody isn’t celebrating the fact that this cop got one kill with one shot? How many times do cops endanger other people with their lousy marksmanship. Normally, people are crying about all the misses and who could have been hurt.

  90. @Sick 'n Tired

    Gottfried held his own with Eddie Murphy, who was en fuego in the early to mid-80s:

  91. @Twinkie

    I have been training Judo for 40 years and Jujitsu for over 20. I have extensive training in small arms, blade, and impact weapons as well as unarmed fighting.

    That’s all bullshit, nothing to do with real violence. What real, actual fight have you been in in forty years?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  92. The racist who wrote this shite must be over the moon that a thirteen year old boy didn’t get ‘juvie hall’, but summary execution, sans, trial, sans verdict, sans mercy.

  93. @MarkinLA

    He was a thirteen year old shit-scared for his life, you vicious, unfeeling, racist.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @MarkinLA
  94. This one has really thrown up the dregs of compassionless, unfeeling, monstrous racists. The USA is really in very deep moral and spiritual trouble when you can find such a collection of apologists for summary child murder.

  95. @t

    Perhaps cops should not be trained to (always/automatically) say “let me see your hands” when dealing with a person holding a gun. (“Drop the gun” is good; “no quick movements” could be a new one)

    “Freeze!!” gets the point across.

    Don’t cops say that anymore?

    • Agree: Sean
    • Replies: @Twinkie
  96. Twinkie says:
    @David Davenport

    That’s all bullshit

    Ugh. I see you haven’t had any LE/MIL training in the past 20 years.

    What real, actual fight have you been in in forty years?

    You don’t want me to get started on this.

  97. JMcG says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    Two minutes earlier he was a thirteen year old creep making sure other people were running for their lives. To hell with him and everyone like him.

    • Agree: Pat Kittle
  98. Twinkie says:
    @Pat Kittle

    “Freeze!!” gets the point across.

    A noted firearms trainer (who shall remain nameless) used to teach armed civilians to yell “Police, freeze!” at intruders/assailants. He had a number of reasons for this, but when objected that this was “police impersonation,” would argue that it sounded like “Please, freeze!” and thus had plausible deniability.

  99. @JimDandy

    This latest gangbanging martyr was really known as “Lil Homicide”??

    Incredible.

    What media (((shysters))) leave out of a story is criminal.

    Make that genocidal.

  100. Sean says:
    @Boy the way Glenn Miller played

    A lot of what the cops do involves making delinquents fear them and is really about intimidating presence (bluff) than actual infliction of punitive violence. Both the police and those who they arrest could take valuable lessons from this incident, cops might be taught to be wary of method acting and the effect it has on judgement. Adam stopped and died anyway because Stillman completely failed to control the post-chase situation by issuing a sequence of orders that–if obeyed–would keep both of them safe. One would presume he knew how to do it from his training. I find it very difficult to believe that police academies have ever taught their students that the proper procedure for arresting someone believed to likely be holding a gun is to start by saying “Show me your hands”.

    I think from Stillman roaring “Fucking stop!” as if his patience was exhausted, Adam worried he was about to get it in-the-back. That worked (in 1985 it was ruled police could no longer shoot people just for running away) and you have to say Stillman was able to cow Adam. One hopes that the police do not encounter an increased incidence of people with guns preferring to go out shooting than cooperate and risk what happened to Adam, but it would not be entirely surprising if such was the case given the amount of publicity around his fate.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  101. @Sean

    Lil Homicide was a valued up-and-coming gang member because you could hand him your smoking gun and not only would he take but he’d come up with a plan to hide it so he could bluff the cops into not arresting anybody, other than maybe him for curfew violation.

    • Replies: @Harold
  102. Sean says:

    Lil Homicide was a valued up-and-coming gang member

    Not because he was a small target. It is as far beneath gang bangers to shoot a thirteen year old as it ought to be for a police man to do it, By his mid twenties Adam would have fired shots in a confrontation, did a bid and been on the fast track to the morgue. However, isn’t it literalizing delinquent criminal hyperbole to assume a moniker establishes Adam had already been a part of that level of involvement, let alone got a name as a solid dude who could stand up to the kind of pressure that comes with a murder case investigation? In all liklihood he was going to be in murder plots and not a contributing member of society. But Stillman (and Chauvin’s) actions have cost the taxpayer a lot more.

    I feel “smoking gun” was a unwittingly deceptive phrase, as it implied Adam had already been complicit in the aftermath of homicidal intent; no one was even wounded in the incident that brought the police to the scene. Adam and his pal had no chance to get off the main street. Bullet hole in a car? Indeed, it is unclear that daringly doing what would almost immediately get the police dispatched by to the spot was not what they were trying to achieve, because there are automatic gunshot detecting locators all over that very heavily policed area.

    Sounds crazy I know, but the rash bravado of carrying and even firing an illegal gun for no particular reason is attractive to young gang members seeking a reputation and a nickname that seemed to allude to acts of extreme seriousness; they are trying to be noticed by girls. not get locked up with other males for decades. Adam was foolhardy and did not realise the danger he was putting himself in, but Stillman did not focus on the facts and use his authority as a police officer in uttering a proper sequence of verbal commands to make the arrest, and that is why got into a position where he felt he had to shoot.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  103. @Sean

    “Smoking gun” refers to gunshot residue being found on the hands of both gangbangers.

    Why are you assuming the cops’ verbals instructions were important. The kid clearly had a plan to get out of the jam: to ditch the gun without the cop seeing he’d done it.

  104. Sean says:

    Why are you assuming the cop’s verbal instructions were important. .

    He stopped Adam running away with “Fuckin Stop”, which made it impossible to effectively hide the gun from the police, although Adam made a desultory attempt to do so rather than be arrested with it on him, but that was right under the nose and bodycam of Stillman, sure to be found, and would not have got Adam out a charge much more serious than being abroad after nightfall. Not only was there was the residue, because they were not wearing gloves their fingerprints were on the gun.

    So Adam’s plan went awry because Stillman’s commands worked. He had stopped a fleeing suspect and secured highly incriminating evidence to prosecute Adam and pal for whatever had happened with the gun discharge. They’d got a lot more than they bargained for. Adan was standing their: did it take a NASA flight director or CIA field agent to work out what to order Adam to do next, and could only an Airborne Ranger have the manly confidence to take the risk of an orderly peaceful arrest of someone suspected of having a firearm? I don’t think it warrants prosecution, really, but Stillman is too stupid to be a cop, or member of the Coastguard, or Firefighter.

  105. MarkinLA says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    He was a thirteen year old piece of shit who after watching too many “Sicario” movies thought he was going to be a hit man for the Latin Kings and maybe, just maybe, for a Mexican cartel.

    GFY with that stupid “racist” crap. It stopped working a long time ago.

  106. Harold says:
    @Steve Sailer

    You wrote, ‘…in the hope of not getting charged with possession of a smoking gun’

    I suspect it was more he feared the displeasure of whoever handed him the gun if he let the gun get into police hands, or he hoped to be in good standing with whoever handed him the gun if he managed to hide the gun from the cops. Or some combination of those.

  107. Twinkie says:
    @Ripple Earthdevil

    Thanks. I suspected so, but I generically use “he” until fairly certain.

  108. GoyVey23 says:

    Brooks Robinson in the 1970 World Series would have had the reflexes to stop himself from pulling the trigger at the last millisecond.

    But what if he knew that not pulling the trigger might be fatal? Displaying good reflexes in baseball, where mistakes don’t get you killed, and good reflexes in policing, where mistakes often do get you killed, are not the same.

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