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2020 ACT Scores: Asians Pulling Away, Same as on SAT
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A few weeks ago, I wrote a Taki’s column entitled “Asian Supremacy” reporting on SAT college admission test score trends for high school seniors graduating in 2020. Now the rival ACT test (12 to 36 scale) has published its 2020 average scores, and trends are fairly similar: Asians are going up, up, up, while everybody else is in decline:

ACT Avg. 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2020 – 2016 2020 vs. Asians 2020 vs. whites
Asian 24.0 24.3 24.5 24.6 24.9 0.9 0.0 2.9
White 22.2 22.4 22.2 22.1 22.0 -0.2 -2.9 0.0
2 or More 21.0 21.2 21.1 21.0 20.9 -0.1 -4.0 -1.1
All 20.8 21.0 20.8 20.7 20.6 -0.2 -4.3 -1.4
No Response 20.1 20.3 19.8 19.7 19.7 -0.4 -5.2 -2.3
Hispanic 18.7 18.9 18.8 18.7 18.5 -0.2 -6.4 -3.5
Pacific 18.6 18.4 18.2 17.9 17.5 -1.1 -7.4 -4.5
Black 17.0 17.1 16.9 16.8 16.7 -0.3 -8.2 -5.3
Am Indian 17.7 17.5 17.3 17.0 16.7 -1.0 -8.2 -5.3

The ACT claims its standard deviation is 5.9.

The recent declines aren’t as sharp as on the SAT, where the test was redone a couple of years ago, which messed up everybody except Asians. Plus the SAT has recently won a bunch of contracts from state legislatures to give their test to everybody in the public schools, a strategy pioneered by the ACT. So, while the number of students taking the SAT has gone up in the last few years, meaning the SAT is scraping the bottom of the barrel harder, the number of ACT test-takers has declined, I think in part because the SAT won some statewide contracts away from the ACT. Here is the ACT test-taker data:

As on the SAT, the average test scores for American Indians are in sharp decline. And on the ACT, the number of Native American test-takers hasn’t increased, so that is genuinely concerning. Also of interest is that Native Hawaiian / Other Pacific Islander scores are dropping like a rock too.

So, as Ibram X. Kendi has proven, this means the ACT was racistly designed specifically to facilitate Asian Supremacy and hurt the feelings of American Indians and Pacific Islanders. To look for any other explanations is to indulge in Conspiracy Theorizing.

 
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  1. Something must be done to stop this injustice. Someone really needs to stop reporting or even collecting this sort of statistical data. Better still, let’s kill this scourge of a test once and for all.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Polistra
    @The Alarmist

    Doesn't really matter how well Asians do. We'll just ignore them. The important thing is to wreck white folks. And that, we won't fail to do.

    , @El Dato
    @The Alarmist

    The maoist revolution will come to the reactionary developers of R, SPSS, Julia etc. And databases not in the hand of govnmts won't last long.

    You will only be able to use Microsoft Excel (recommended by Bill "The Vaxx" Gates) and its fantastic utilities for graph generation.

    , @AnotherDad
    @The Alarmist

    Yep, tests are racist.
    Come to think of it, data is racist.


    But being a deplorable, i'd actually like to have more anyway:

    I wouldn't mind having my taxes pay for general school leaving tests for every single American kid:
    -- part IQy, part general HS level knowledge
    -- computerized and adaptive like the AFQT which the SAT/ACT continue to refuse to do (which aids the preppers); in fact using AFQT would be fine
    -- student background--race, ethnicity, religion, parent income, parent education, family structure all recorded
    -- with swab for DNA test

    ... and we'd have the data to sort this all out.


    Free bonus: a few years out, cops would be clearing more crimes, bad guys off the street ... crime down.

    Downside: no doubt we'd have to listen to more wailing and whining when some of those bad guys decided they didn't want to be arrested.

    Replies: @Alice in Wonderland

  2. @The Alarmist
    Something must be done to stop this injustice. Someone really needs to stop reporting or even collecting this sort of statistical data. Better still, let’s kill this scourge of a test once and for all.

    Replies: @Polistra, @El Dato, @AnotherDad

    Doesn’t really matter how well Asians do. We’ll just ignore them. The important thing is to wreck white folks. And that, we won’t fail to do.

  3. Is there evidence of Asian achievement gap in work place? Asians have been killing it in terms of attendance at NYC elite public schools for decades now. Where are the tech startups they went on to start? Hedge funds running on the algorithms they devised? Which of the emerging covid vaccines and treatments have been pioneered by Asian SAT high scorers?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Steve Richter

    Steve. Steve. They invented the wheelbarrow. Why do they need to keep on proving themselves? After we're murdered or disenfranchised by people who think they can voudonically order lightning onto their enemies, the least creative ancestor-worshipper will one day find himself forced into an emergency need to invent, and then he will probably acquit himself just fine. What have we created lately, SodaStream? Posted from my Samsung.

    , @Anon
    @Steve Richter

    Well, here's the ranking of ethnic groups in America by per capita income:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_per_capita_income

    , @1661er
    @Steve Richter


    Where are the tech startups they went on to start?
     
    Sun Microsystem
    Yahoo!
    Nvidia
    DoorDash
    Instacart
    Robinhood
    Credit Karma
    One Medical
    etc.

    If you include people who were disenchanted by the treatment they received in the US and found companies elsewhere:
    TSMC
    SoftBank
  4. Significant nature and nurture variables related to this problem are parental and individual child willingness to resist the destructive influences of video games and other addictive online time-wasters. As was remarked earlier about the baleful influence of television content, it’s not just the sometimes questionable behaviors that it promotes, it’s the behaviors that it prevents by wasting your (and your children’s) time. One of the self-sabotaging ironies of our computing technology-driven addictions is the increasing intellectual sophistication of warehouse-scale distributed computing (“the cloud”), advanced semiconductor hardware design (NVIDIA starting out with graphics cards, then AI acceleration hardware mainly used to help create more addictive online experiences, now combined with Mellanox and ARM to extend their tentacles everywhere), network protocols and global fiber and satellite infrastructure, software frameworks, etc., etc. resulting in an overall dumbing-down of society’s human intellectual potential. This dumbing-down disproportionately affects those at the developmental peak of their intellectual potential (youths) and those who would most benefit by cherishing it (evolutionarily less well-endowed populations).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Voltarde


    This dumbing-down disproportionately affects those at the developmental peak of their intellectual potential (youths) and those who would most benefit by cherishing it
     
    What does the “it” refer to?
  5. OT but useful

  6. 2020 ACT scores by race converted to IQ:

    107.4 Asian
    100.0 White
    97.2 2 or More Races
    96.4 All
    94.2 No Response
    91.1 Hispanic
    88.6 Pacific Islander
    86.5 Black
    86.5 American Indian

  7. Asians may do better on the SAT, and they may get better grades in college (what the SAT is supposed to predict)*. But that doesn’t mean we can’t be like Kendi and question whether society doesn’t unfairly advantage asians and whether whites actually benefit from sharing a country (or a planet) with asians.

    People here are so obsessed with justifying whites position over blacks (and doing so in a way that’s “principled” and consistent) that they end up relying on some really absurd principles that they then use to defend other groups mistreatment of whites. Just because Kendi isn’t very bright and comes to some suspect and often times ridiculous conclusions doesn’t mean you can’t come to intelligent conclusions that say the same things about whites that he does about blacks.

    *As an aside, do Asians get as good grades in college as their SAT/ACT scores predict?

    • Agree: Alden
  8. The first nest of Asian giant hornets found in the US has successfully been destroyed by scientists.

    The nest, in the state of Washington, was found by putting tracker devices on the hornets and it was sucked out of a tree using a vacuum hose.

    The invasive species insects, known as “murder hornets”, have a powerful sting and can spit venom.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54681723

    • Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard
    @Henry's Cat

    Wake me up when the alien invasion psyop kicks off.

    Thanks.

  9. @The Alarmist
    Something must be done to stop this injustice. Someone really needs to stop reporting or even collecting this sort of statistical data. Better still, let’s kill this scourge of a test once and for all.

    Replies: @Polistra, @El Dato, @AnotherDad

    The maoist revolution will come to the reactionary developers of R, SPSS, Julia etc. And databases not in the hand of govnmts won’t last long.

    You will only be able to use Microsoft Excel (recommended by Bill “The Vaxx” Gates) and its fantastic utilities for graph generation.

  10. Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Henry Canaday

    I actually wouldn't be surprised.

    The big problem is that we're currently in geopolitical competition with China.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    , @AndrewR
    @Henry Canaday

    That would not be a "gain" and we definitely don't need to "get used" to these people in our country. The majority of "Asians" in the US are Chinese. China clearly has no problem using them as a fifth column. And these paper-Americans are often far too happy to comply. Even more outrageously, non-Chinese "Asians" have been subsumed into a pan-"Asian" identity which is unquestionably but not explicitly Chinese in nature. So criticizing the Chinese government is now considered by many people in the media and government to be an "attack" on all "Asians," including the Korean grandma down the street. I wish I were making this up.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    , @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Henry Canaday

    Jews have way higher verbal IQs which is conducive to achieving power, Chinese are more adapted to being good at maths and whatnot.

    We will see the domination of the media by Jews and a domination of the STEM departments by Chinese.

    Replies: @SFG

    , @bomag
    @Henry Canaday


    Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields
     
    A) Are there going to be fields left to dominate in a Woke future?

    B) Does sorting by SAT score leave us with people able to organize and lead? High SAT scorers are not necessarily adept at holding things together.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    , @J.Ross
    @Henry Canaday

    This comparison is misleading because of how the score works. A person less intelligent than say Meyer Lansky or Michael Milliken can still be a law-abiding benefit to society, and intelligence for intelligence's sake may have diminishing returns: look at undeniably smart Ruth Ginsberg boast about how much she hated the document she was mistakenly entrusted to protect. Below a certain level intelligence does seem to reliably predict worrying tendencies (a much less intelligent person may opt for violence more often because they cannot see alternatives or bear in mind consequences) but how does that limitation follow the proportion?
    Probable answer: if only you were as smart as Norm Eisen or Kurt Eichenwald, you would be able to see why we need to get rid of the first and second amendments, human driven automobiles, property rights, privacy, class mobility, and what freedom remains online. I mean, the figures speak for themselves: the algorithms we put together are unanimous that it would solve everything. We are held back only by the obstinance of the very people we're trying to save, as in the Soyuz.

    , @indocon
    @Henry Canaday

    Not a surprise when you have a society which for 500 years has chosen its elites through competitive testing, not based on the family you were born in. When you enter the forbidden city in Beijing, the first court is where the emperor had his enemies and their families executed, normal stuff outside most forty and palaces in world, but the second Court is where competitive exams were held since 15th century for all high level positions in the empire. I think that is something completely unique to the last 2 Chinese dynasties.

    Replies: @Lot

    , @John Derbyshire
    @Henry Canaday

    Importing an overclass https://tinyurl.com/yywk4u3e

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Spangel

    , @Rob
    @Henry Canaday

    This could be really bad, actually. Will whites accept being virtually locked out of high IQ roles? Gentiles might, but would Jews? It would certainly mean a closer relationship with China. We could take lots of Korean immigrants, but as the US declines accelerates, and China’s per capital output equals ours, and then keeps growing faster than ours, how many Koreans will want to come? American born Chinese are likely to feel more drawn towards the Chinese than would say, Irish Americans.

    Being wealthier per capital would put a wet blanket on US cultural hegemony. Chinese action movies would have stunts that put ours to shame, as they could get larger investments in China than American ones can. Conservative whites will seriously lose their shit the first time Chinese opposition shuts down a wargasm in the mideast. All Americans will be in for a reckoning and China far surpasses us on material and quality of life living standards. The saddest thing? It won’t even shut down illegal immigration, Poor Mexicans and Salvadorans will still live better here than at home, not to mention that the US economy will start specialize in low wage industries. The management consulting types might think we are going to specialize in high IQ industries, too. China will have a lock on businesses that require a 145 IQ, simply because there is a much larger number of Chinese above that, and those jobs will benefit from a 160 IQ, and those are far more common in a 115 mean IQ China than here. Plus, Chinese consultants will understand the business and market better than Americans.

    There is always the hope that Chins will show less imperialism than the west did, and the hope that China will be less interested in the internal workings of other societies. I know a lot of people here have swallowed the yellow pill, and think China will save us as the US collapses under the weight of diversity. They may only be interested in securing resource flows, but even that will likely come with political restrictions. But Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, and the MSM already restrict our political opinions. What does it matter if the censors are Chinese? The prison sentences would matter to individual dissents imorisoned, but the effect on the rest of us would be the mere chilling of speech that we already have.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    , @Lot
    @Henry Canaday

    “ arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated”

    Lol no. Anyone seriously believe that?

    AJs having a 112-115IQ leads to massive outperformance in dozens of different g-loaded domains despite a population of under 15M.

    If NE Asians had such IQs and a population of 1.4 BILLION, where’s their comparable accomplishments?

    There’s no way their environment is depressing their IQ by 10 points either, probably not even 1 point. Japan, Taiwan, HK and Singapore have been wealthy for several generations. People are not delicate orchids that need a special perfect environment to flower. And even if they did, the junk food fed and leftist-dominated US education system is hardly superior to how Japanese and Koreans raise their kids.

    Trans-racial adoption studies have been producing wonky results for a long time.

    If anything, I think NE Asian genotypical g may be below the 1/3 SD advantage over NW Euro Whites you typically see:

    1. No high quality testing of rural Chinese, who are half of the total NE Asian population.

    2. NE Asians have a deep “test prep/cram school” culture that causes them to over-perform their IQ on tests.

    3. NE Asians who have migrated to the West, and do so well on our tests, are selected for intelligence directly and also for high income, work ethic, and openness, which are all correlated with intelligence.

    4. Per capita scientific output in developed Asian nations is below Western nations, when it should be well higher if they have 106 IQs.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Henry Canaday

    From a quick look at Murray's paper, he appears to be arguing:

    Fact#1: Rather than showing the steadily rising "Flynn Effect" evident in the rest of the world, the measured average IQ in South Korea and Japan have jumped up and down over time between 105-115, and are currently sitting at the low end of that range.

    Fact#2: Some studies of Asian children adopted by Americans show higher than expected IQs which are nearer the 115 high-water mark.

    Therefore:

    Conclusion #1. The variance in Asian IQ between 105-115 must be due to some mysterious "environmental" impact.

    Conclusion #2. The American "environment" -- unlike the current Asian environment -- has the secret sauce that allows the Asian IQs to rise to their highest possible level.

    Conclusion #3 (Admittedly speculation). This secret sauce may be taking it easy and just not studying too hard, like they supposedly do now (but not in the past!), in Asia.


    I have to admit the data on varying (and recently declining) Asian IQ scores is something I had never heard of and seems pretty puzzling. But Murray's speculative extrapolation from this data is weak.

    A cynic might even suggest that Murray is trying to get into the good graces of the good people by deliberately crafting a narrative that: (1) emphasizes "environmental" effects on IQ; (2) highlights the superiority of a non-white group; and (3) extolls the benefits of liberal "diversity-is-our-strength" American culture.

    Replies: @Henry Canaday

    , @Rahan
    @Henry Canaday


    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated
     
    Remember the opposite historical trajectories.

    Jews and the Chinese are both (basically the only) nations that survived from the bronze age to now. The planet has grown small and a showdown now seems inevitable, with the Jews harnessing the Anglosphere and to an extent Europe and India on their side.

    However, the differences:
    - The Chinese had a nation state the whole time
    - The Jews were a diaspora the whole time
    - The Chinese did not develop strict religious frameworks and eat anything
    - For the Jews without a homeland, strict religious frameworks + what to eat and what to do on what day and how to hate the goyim, all this provided an exoskeleton which allowed the nation to survive over the centuries without a national homeland
    - The Chinese learned how to manage their own country and invented modern bureaucracy 3000 years ago.
    - The Jews learned how to take over the nervous system of their host countries (was already a smooth practice by the time of Cleopatra)

    Thus, while IQ is IQ, the different survival strategies lead to different results today. The Chinese abroad may either keep to themselves or try to assimilate or to dominate some specific field, but they don't have what it takes (yet) to take over the whole nervous system of the host nation.

    Likewise, Jews are not (yet) capable of pulling it off with the oldest surviving nation state (China)

    In a sense it's like a millenia-long drama of the two opposites, to which the rest of the world provides decorations.

    We do, however, seem to be approaching some sort of crisis between the two nations, finally.

  11. I would like to see the results of a standardized test that is given on a random day. That is not to say Asians won’t dominated. But shouldn’t smarts be gauged on given brain power rather than paid preparation and repeat test taking? Back in my day of taking the SAT, most kids took it at least twice if not three times. Never seemed right, and that was before the inception of preparation classes.

    • Replies: @Kaz
    @Old and Grumpy


    Back in my day of taking the SAT, most kids took it at least twice if not three times. Never seemed right, and that was before the inception of preparation classes.
     
    This is a good thing. Asian countries have punishing standardized testing systems where your whole life is decided by one stupid test and retaking is not an option.

    Being able to improve on the SAT/ACT by taking it multiple times is a feature, not a bug.

  12. The way those trends are going, we’ll never achieve No Child Left Behind’s goals.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @International Jew

    Nah, IJ, we're going to redefine "above average".

    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @International Jew

    It's almost as though multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious societies don't work very well.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    , @Mr. Anon
    @International Jew


    The way those trends are going, we’ll never achieve No Child Left Behind’s goals.
     
    Next you'll be telling me we might not be on track to achieve a "Great Society"! Why, it's almost as if the last 55 years of effort have been in vain!
  13. @International Jew
    The way those trends are going, we'll never achieve No Child Left Behind's goals.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Mr. Anon

    Nah, IJ, we’re going to redefine “above average”.

  14. I only took the ACT for college admission, back in 1979. I scored two standard deviations above the average black.

    • Replies: @DRA
    @Spud Boy

    Try this one...

    https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED070799.pdf

  15. Not entirely off-topic, apparently gender roles are alive and well in China:

    https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/features/pickup-artists-chinese-characteristics

    • Replies: @JohnPlywood
    @SFG

    I see nothing in that link to indicate that gender roles are alive and well in China, much to the opposite, in fact. But given the hallucination-like effects that many people on this website seem to suffer from, I guess that's expected.


    We can look at some actual data to calibrate the state of gender roles in China, in a way that is real and measurable. One example would be the role of women to birth children:

    https://static.toiimg.com/photo/msid-73552740/73552740.jpg

    Yep... Chinese women aren't fulfilling any roles.

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @SFG


    One of those lessons: “Start by kissing her on the neck. That’s why girls always shower before they go out, by the way.
     
    Hhahha, genius.....
  16. I favor “test in” schools. Exceptional ability should be treated as a precious resource. People care more about snail darters and barn owls than kids denied an opportunity to succeed. Have the black scholars formulate a test based on black American culture. This test will be for blacks only and the top ten percent get a place in the criteria schools. Once in, they are on their own. No changes to the curriculum, sink or swim.

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Buffalo Joe

    You're still trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Separation based on tribe is the answer - always was the answer - whether it makes Whites feel icky or not.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buffalo Joe

    , @Hannah Katz
    @Buffalo Joe

    They tried this in the 1970s. The results were just the opposite of what you would think, as they included white kids in the test and they actually beat the black kids worse than the standard fare tests. So those who came up with the idea were labeled as racists and the blacks that helped develop the test were branded as Uncle Toms. Funny thing, they were well meaning white liberals. Oh well...

    , @MBlanc46
    @Buffalo Joe

    That could really be interesting, Joe. Unfortunately, it will never happen.

  17. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    I actually wouldn’t be surprised.

    The big problem is that we’re currently in geopolitical competition with China.

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @SFG

    Your use of the word "we" is quaint. As a White living in this place called the United States, I'm much more concerned with the tribal competition in my backyard.

    The days of hiding behind "my fellow" whatever are over.

    Replies: @SFG

  18. I’ll repeat a suggestion for shutting up the likes of Kendi: Have standardized tests developed by a panel consisting exclusively of the top black scholars.

    • LOL: donut
  19. I didn’t realize the reds were so dumb.

    I got a 28 on my ACT. I was sleep deprived and hungover. I also wasn’t really able to finish in time so I spent the last few minutes filling in random answers for the last quarter of the test so that I would have a 1/4 (or was it 1/5?) chance of getting each question correct. I prefer exams where you get penalized for the wrong answer. That means you don’t have to spend time filling in fake answers if you aren’t able to go through the whole exam in time. It also encourages you to really think about your answers.

  20. ACT/SAT will both be abolished. In their stead, there will be a SES-adjusted test with adversity scores etc or simply no test at all. This will be required to do the necessary “racial balancing”.

    There won’t be any Asian uprising. Native-born Asians are some of the strongest supporters of affirmative action. US intellectuals like Michael Sandel are now publishing unhinged screeds against meritocracy. Dark times ahead for America.

    • Replies: @Alden
    @Thulean Friend

    1996 election California had anti affirmative action Proposition 209 on the ballot. Whites voted overwhelmingly for Prop 208. Asians of all ethnicities and every SES voted against Prop 209.

    That was 24 years ago. Asians have not changed.

    Asians benefit enormously from non college admissions affirmative action. Asians get affirmative action business loans tax deductions government contracts and many business loans etc from the plethora of government programs for non White businesses. Government. Including airport contracts is as much No Whites Need Apply as government jobs.

    That’s why Asians vote for affirmative action and the anti White Democrat party.

    Replies: @Bill P

  21. Table 155. ACT score averages and standard deviations, by sex and race/ethnicity, and percentage of ACT test takers, by selected composite score ranges and planned fields of study: Selected years, 1995 through 2010

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_155.asp

    The ACT standard deviation has been creeping up.
    < 5.0 through 2006
    = 5.0 in 2007, 2008,
    Now 5.9

    More smarties and more dummies, I’d guess, with the additional smarties being Asians and the additional dummies being Hispanics (and maybe a hodgepodge of other affirmative-action eligibles from sheethole countries around the world).

  22. All these facts prove the test is not biased in favor of Whites. And that will have zero impact on the anti-White agenda, because it isn’t driven by facts. It’s driven by hatred.

  23. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    That would not be a “gain” and we definitely don’t need to “get used” to these people in our country. The majority of “Asians” in the US are Chinese. China clearly has no problem using them as a fifth column. And these paper-Americans are often far too happy to comply. Even more outrageously, non-Chinese “Asians” have been subsumed into a pan-“Asian” identity which is unquestionably but not explicitly Chinese in nature. So criticizing the Chinese government is now considered by many people in the media and government to be an “attack” on all “Asians,” including the Korean grandma down the street. I wish I were making this up.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @AndrewR

    Also, even if Asians were a net gain in every other way, increasing diversity is bad and the whatever positives they brought would have to counteract that in order to actually bring benefit.

    The whole thing is ridiculous. The most successful societies are overwhelmingly monoethnic white ones.

  24. Steve how are the Aleutian Islanders holding up? I want more king crab from theseUS waters. Opilio too. Yes. I have seen many seasons of Greatest Catch/ You want to get maimed for life/f ed up knees and elbows then sign onto an Alaskan crab boat. Get your oxy-Sackler prescription.

  25. I would argue that working conditions in East Asia now are better than they were in the catch up years, and management is if anything, less uptight and more egalitarian in the past 20 years in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea due to Westernization of East Asian cultures, if anything recent data probably capture things better, maybe the old data is only capturing those who can afford an IQ test, hence the higher IQ, or maybe the integrity of the old data is doubtful (authoritarian governments have a reason to artificially boost their IQ scores, and Korea and Taiwan only democratized recently), and also the culture in Taiwan is less uptight than China, Korea, and Japan, and you tend to see the same figures as in China, so those IQ tests do capture a pretty good picture. Bottom line is that East Asia cultures are a lot more liberal and less individualistic now, than they were in the year 1990, or even 2000, so if IQ scores are being depressed by cultural reasons you should see an increase, not a decrease since the 1970s and 1980s.

  26. At this point, I am not opposed to universities moving past using “standardized” test scores. It is not because asians score well that I say this, but because the original use of these tests is so distorted in the current environment. It is true that the test prep industry modestly reduces the value of these test. When these tests began and became available to the masses, test prep was rare and the tests really could identify intelligent students out of a group. Test prep has modest effects, but it does have effects and it isn’t sought out by all parents or students equally.

    But more than test prep, the trend of affluent or cagey parents getting extended time and other advantages for their children really ruins the value of the test. Now rich parents go from psychologist to psychologist until they find the one that says Johnny is dyslexic and needs extra time. It is known that these concessions for “learning disabilities” are given disproportionately to the wealthy and that extra time really does impact a person’s ability to score well on what is supposed to be a timed test.

    Since that all is occurring, I say abolish the test. Let these elite universities admit students from a lottery.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Spangel


    Since that all is occurring, I say abolish the test. Let these elite universities admit students from a lottery.
     
    No, let them continue to admit kids who benefited from either test prep or medical accommodation. That, to hear you tell it, means that we send more true talent to less “elite” schools, which is all to the good. Spread the wealth.
  27. Are East and South Asians lumped together? I think there is a selection effect going on where Indian immigrants and their children are much higher IQ than Indians in India.

    I am running across quite a few Indian and Pakistani descended people in big law and consulting firms who are quite bright.

  28. @SFG
    @Henry Canaday

    I actually wouldn't be surprised.

    The big problem is that we're currently in geopolitical competition with China.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Your use of the word “we” is quaint. As a White living in this place called the United States, I’m much more concerned with the tribal competition in my backyard.

    The days of hiding behind “my fellow” whatever are over.

    • Agree: Polistra
    • Replies: @SFG
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    I'm not your enemy, but I'll forward your complaints to the NYT editorial board.

    I'm sure they'll pay attention to me.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

  29. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    Jews have way higher verbal IQs which is conducive to achieving power, Chinese are more adapted to being good at maths and whatnot.

    We will see the domination of the media by Jews and a domination of the STEM departments by Chinese.

    • Replies: @SFG
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    'Will'?

  30. @International Jew
    The way those trends are going, we'll never achieve No Child Left Behind's goals.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Mr. Anon

    It’s almost as though multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious societies don’t work very well.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    It’s almost as though multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious societies don’t work very well.
     
    They might work well, if people weren't so obsessed with how they're doing compared to other racial groups and more concerned with improving their own lot in life.

    They don't work well because there are always demagogues around - in our case, the Democratic Party - to tell them to hate people who are more successful and more law abiding than themselves.

    Whites don't really need to have blacks around, but blacks most certainly need whites and Asians around to provide the services they expect in the modern world. They're angry at their dependence on us, but not angry enough to get the education they need so that they don't require us anymore. Instead they tell themselves fantasies about racism keeping them down.

    The end result of all this George Floyd insanity is that 10-20 years from now blacks will be doing far worse educationally compared to whites than they are now.

    Replies: @HammerJack

  31. I think part of the recently observed asian dominance at the top decile of test takers comes from the children of once poor asian immigrant groups reaching their natural potential. Asians were likely higher IQ on average (as evidenced by PISA tests across their own countries) and in the US most asians come from some form of selective immigration, even those who hold working class jobs in this country.

    South Asians were also heavily filtered through selective immigration. There are more and more of them in the “asian category” which is also likely bumping up the score. South asian intelligence seems poorly understood overall, and it’s only generally understood that different endogamous groups can have different mean IQs. It’s looking likely that some portion of the south asian smart fraction is as smart as the east asian smart fraction, but I don’t think we know yet how many south asians are in this smart fraction based on genetic potential.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Spangel

    Hell, we don't even understand white endogamous groups in America. It's pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash) and that their mean IQs differ but they all get lumped under "white". The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    In the future, they will be one group - the secular Jew-WASPs - because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes. The E. Asians will also get mixed in. The S. Asians will take another generation or two before they totally interbreed with the other American IQ elites.

    Replies: @Spangel, @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @Polistra, @Bardon Kaldian

  32. @Buffalo Joe
    I favor "test in" schools. Exceptional ability should be treated as a precious resource. People care more about snail darters and barn owls than kids denied an opportunity to succeed. Have the black scholars formulate a test based on black American culture. This test will be for blacks only and the top ten percent get a place in the criteria schools. Once in, they are on their own. No changes to the curriculum, sink or swim.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Hannah Katz, @MBlanc46

    You’re still trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Separation based on tribe is the answer – always was the answer – whether it makes Whites feel icky or not.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    Separation based on tribe is the answer – always was the answer...
     
    Then we were screwed from the very beginning.

    ...whether it makes Whites feel icky or not.

     

    Dirty work in the hot sun made whites feel icky. And still does. So we pollute our territory to avoid it. That's what it is--pollution. Ask any Indian.

    I'm just glad my ancestors chose the frigid mountains and forests, where it's white to this day. Literally-- it snowed this week.

    Replies: @Polistra

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Citi, well you can fit a round peg in a square hole if the diameter of the peg is less than the dimension of the square. Thing is, you can get these kids into the school if you want to but will they succeed, which is my point. Let them in, don't dumb down and see what happens. Thank you for your reply.

  33. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields

    A) Are there going to be fields left to dominate in a Woke future?

    B) Does sorting by SAT score leave us with people able to organize and lead? High SAT scorers are not necessarily adept at holding things together.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @bomag

    B) Does sorting by SAT score leave us with people able to organize and lead? High SAT scorers are not necessarily adept at holding things together.

    No you don't get it. Whites deserve to have a higher standard of living than blacks because they're better at college freshman level math and english courses and for that reason only. So in order to be principled and consistent, asians have to deserve to be better off than whites (since they're even better at them). What part of that doesn't make sense? You can't possibly be suggesting that we try to come up with a sensible way to determine who deserves to be better off, such as their ability to actually generate well being for themselves and others. It has to be based on Freshman level college courses. Urgh!

    Replies: @Jack D, @TWS

  34. Basically the quality of the data before 1990 was just bad, is being manipulated, or is testing only the more affluent East Asians who can afford to undergo IQ testing (keep in mind that in 1970 South Korea had a standard of living comparable to Malawi, Japan was at the same level as Mexico or Argentina, and Taiwan was at the same level as Vietnam), the quality of the data has gotten a lot better lately, and so the IQ tests are reflecting a more representative sample of the East Asian population. Also Chinese immigration to the US has become more elite for the past 20 years, which explains rising IQ scores among recent Chinese immigrants, plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @128


    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective
     
    That's ridiculous - high IQ people tend to be successful and successful people don't give their kids up for adoption in the modern world. Not that many Asian kids in America are adopted to begin with - most are with their own parents. In the old days in America, sometimes high IQ coeds would get knocked up and not want to keep the baby (e.g. Steve Jobs' mom) but since the widespread availability of abortion and birth control, that never happens.

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    https://cty.jhu.edu/sebin/x/u/study_of_exceptional_talent.jpg

    They haven't changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven't changed the photo. I'm just waiting for the whole thing to be cancelled because they rarely if ever get any blacks (I'm guessing that of the tiny handful of "blacks" that have ever qualified, 0 are ADOS blacks).

    Anyway, from what I recall from the study, only a handful of adopted kids over the decades every qualified. Also the vast majority of qualifiers came from intact 2 parent homes.

    Americans may not want to adopt the most clearly damaged babies from Asian orphanages so there is some selection effect but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    Replies: @128, @128, @Calvin Hobbes, @Reg Cæsar, @Alice in Wonderland

    , @Truth
    @128


    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population
     
    LOL, hey maybe you guys can adopt one of those children from a Chinese Nuclear Physicist/College professor, couples that is up for adoption...
  35. The schools are all about testing, testing, testing. Great news for the tax leeching, GOP donating, test industry.

    The DEMs argue for more tax money for schools (public unions). The GOPs argue for more tax money for schools (government contractors). Parents argue for .. babysitting.

    The constituency for the 3Rs fled to the private schools decades ago.

    As much as I oppose the testing mania, I’m disappointed that, in the past nine months, the schools seem to have suspended the testing imperative.

    I was looking forward to reading news that test scores had gone UP (the inescapable conclusion being that school closures were responsible).

    [MORE]

    Maryland pigs are back at the tax trough:

    Baltimore County:
    • Question F ($17.5M bonds for jr colleges)
    • Question G ($200M bonds for public schools)

    Prince George’s County:
    • Question E ($122M bonds for jr colleges)

  36. With the rise of Methland, white culture has been on a downward slide for a couple decades now. This translates culturally to style and affectation too. I met a guy who had been to prison and I thought he was Hispanic, but he talked about allying with the Aryans in prison to stay alive. In other words lower class whites are appearing less white than before. I also suspect the rise of the smartphone is killing brain cells in all groups outside the Asians.

    I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords. (Said in the best Simpsons manner. )

  37. I also remember that the first complaints about standardized testing that I heard, in the early 1990s, were not made on behalf of minorities but by white women. This is wholly anecdotal but a number of white women complained to me that tests did not measure real ability and that they just weren’t good test takers. Although I’d scored a 32 on the ACT I was sympathetic because I was skeptical that filling out bubbles translated to success. Plus I hoped to get laid. But I since recognize that such tests are better measures of ability than any other mechanisms or work arounds.

    Many of our social problems started with gender, before race. Women pulling away from discriminating mate selection, forgoing motherhood, demanding a place in the elite professions, and demanding that standards change to reflect their vision of the world: all this upended white culture.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @John Milton’s Ghost

    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they've secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they're supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Kaz, @AnotherDad

  38. OT And then one day, for no reason at all, people started body-slamming mainstream journalists.

    Biden rally starring Nobel prize winner and two-term President Obama.

    https://postimg.cc/GH3BdWsJ

    • Replies: @Farenheit
    @J.Ross


    Nobel prize winner and two-term President Obama.
     
    Yo, don't forget 2 time Grammy Award winner, dammit!!
  39. @SFG
    Not entirely off-topic, apparently gender roles are alive and well in China:

    https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/features/pickup-artists-chinese-characteristics

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Bardon Kaldian

    I see nothing in that link to indicate that gender roles are alive and well in China, much to the opposite, in fact. But given the hallucination-like effects that many people on this website seem to suffer from, I guess that’s expected.

    We can look at some actual data to calibrate the state of gender roles in China, in a way that is real and measurable. One example would be the role of women to birth children:

    Yep… Chinese women aren’t fulfilling any roles.

  40. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    This comparison is misleading because of how the score works. A person less intelligent than say Meyer Lansky or Michael Milliken can still be a law-abiding benefit to society, and intelligence for intelligence’s sake may have diminishing returns: look at undeniably smart Ruth Ginsberg boast about how much she hated the document she was mistakenly entrusted to protect. Below a certain level intelligence does seem to reliably predict worrying tendencies (a much less intelligent person may opt for violence more often because they cannot see alternatives or bear in mind consequences) but how does that limitation follow the proportion?
    Probable answer: if only you were as smart as Norm Eisen or Kurt Eichenwald, you would be able to see why we need to get rid of the first and second amendments, human driven automobiles, property rights, privacy, class mobility, and what freedom remains online. I mean, the figures speak for themselves: the algorithms we put together are unanimous that it would solve everything. We are held back only by the obstinance of the very people we’re trying to save, as in the Soyuz.

  41. I would be rather skeptical of the claim. History books dont look how they should if east asians were that smart.

  42. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    Not a surprise when you have a society which for 500 years has chosen its elites through competitive testing, not based on the family you were born in. When you enter the forbidden city in Beijing, the first court is where the emperor had his enemies and their families executed, normal stuff outside most forty and palaces in world, but the second Court is where competitive exams were held since 15th century for all high level positions in the empire. I think that is something completely unique to the last 2 Chinese dynasties.

    • Replies: @Lot
    @indocon

    “ Not a surprise when you have a society which for 500 years has chosen its elites through competitive testing, not based on the family you were born in. ”

    Can you provide evidence that China was more meritocratic, where children of elites had less advantages, than Europe?

    As for the Mandarin tests, you think Europeans didn’t have systems for identification of bright boys and sending them to be educated for intellectual jobs?

    Isaac Newton was the son of a middle class farmer and stepson of a rural pastor. That didn’t prevent him from getting a quality education at a Latin grammar school and then Oxford.

    Galileo was the son of a lute player and music theorist who was deeply in debt to pay his daughters’ dowries, but that didn’t stop him from getting a quality primary education and then enrolling in the University of Pisa in 1580.

    No Chinese with a Mandarin education can compare with either of these men, or dozens of other great Europeans from non-elite families.

    A standardized high stakes test is an impressive innovation, but it didn’t have some massive eugenic consequences.

  43. This is an amazing example of how amongst Government idiots, the left hand is not talking to the right.

    The increasingly overt attempts to conceal Asian success (by complaining that the tech industry is ‘lily white’, etc.) in order to blame whites for black failure, is entirely incompatible with rising Asian immigration. As Asian numbers increase, it will be harder and harder to conceal their success. Somehow, the left is unable to anticipate this, even as they want such immigration to increase.

    Furthermore, many 2nd gen Asians do in fact attend law school, so the number of Asian-American lawyers can only rise greatly in the near future.

    On top of that, this will encourage half-white, half-Asian people (who will soon be numerous) to simply call themselves ‘white’.

    Few things are more certain about the future than Asian-American groups filing lawsuits about this sort of anti-Asian discrimination.

    Almost as certain is that higher ed, as currently structured, is on its way out.

  44. And the idea is that IQ tests are supposed culture fair otherwise they are worthless, so it does not matter if someone who grew up in East Asia took it, or someone who grew up in a Latin or African culture took it, because it would still reflect their intelligence fairly, or otherwise the allegations that IQ tests unfairly privilege whites and Europeans, could also be used to argue that black and Mexican underperformance in IQ tests is due to a systemic cultural bias favoring whites, and thus raising their IQ scores, I mean think about it. Plus multigenerational Japanese Americans or Japanese Brazilians that have been there since before WW2 show real world performances that are closer to whites than Ashkenazi Jews, for example, Arabs are elites in Brazilian society, instead of Japanese Brazilians.

  45. And the argument is that Japan or Taiwan was a lot more culturally Japanese or Chinese in 1980, than they are now, since they are a lot more Westernized and liberated now, so if anything that is supposed to reflect in a large increase in IQ scores among Japanese and Taiwanese, instead of a decrease, since allegedly being culturally Asian decreases IQ scores.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
  46. Plus if you the look at the social and cultural achievements of Koreans and Buryats in the Soviet Union, it points to an IQ that is closer to the White European level, rather than anything like 15 or 20 points above Western European whites.

  47. @SFG
    Not entirely off-topic, apparently gender roles are alive and well in China:

    https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/features/pickup-artists-chinese-characteristics

    Replies: @JohnPlywood, @Bardon Kaldian

    One of those lessons: “Start by kissing her on the neck. That’s why girls always shower before they go out, by the way.

    Hhahha, genius…..

  48. Blacks score low because they can’t do better.

    American Indians score low because they are defeated peoples.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Please expound on this purely brilliant thesis.

  49. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    Importing an overclass https://tinyurl.com/yywk4u3e

    • Agree: Calvin Hobbes
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @John Derbyshire

    The East Asians would have to get past the South Asian over-class the US has already imported and entrenched in a number of critical sectors.

    , @Spangel
    @John Derbyshire

    Not every elite institution has to do the same thing. Let some high schools be exam schools where 80% of the student body is Asian. So what? Let them have it. No law is saying that has to be the only kind of gifted school available. We can have schools that focus on liberal arts, leadership and whatever else, all of which have selective admissions. Let some of them do holistic admissions. Let some of them do racially balanced quotas. Many different kinds of schools can be schools for the smart set.

    In the 21st century, the pie is big. There are thousands of universities and thousands of jobs where one can achieve affluence and influence. So what if the asians dominate data science? America is also a huge importer of entertainment, branding, advertising and more, and not every field needs to belong to asians just because asians are good at taking tests.

  50. @John Derbyshire
    @Henry Canaday

    Importing an overclass https://tinyurl.com/yywk4u3e

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Spangel

    The East Asians would have to get past the South Asian over-class the US has already imported and entrenched in a number of critical sectors.

  51. @The Alarmist
    Something must be done to stop this injustice. Someone really needs to stop reporting or even collecting this sort of statistical data. Better still, let’s kill this scourge of a test once and for all.

    Replies: @Polistra, @El Dato, @AnotherDad

    Yep, tests are racist.
    Come to think of it, data is racist.

    But being a deplorable, i’d actually like to have more anyway:

    I wouldn’t mind having my taxes pay for general school leaving tests for every single American kid:
    — part IQy, part general HS level knowledge
    — computerized and adaptive like the AFQT which the SAT/ACT continue to refuse to do (which aids the preppers); in fact using AFQT would be fine
    — student background–race, ethnicity, religion, parent income, parent education, family structure all recorded
    — with swab for DNA test

    … and we’d have the data to sort this all out.

    Free bonus: a few years out, cops would be clearing more crimes, bad guys off the street … crime down.

    Downside: no doubt we’d have to listen to more wailing and whining when some of those bad guys decided they didn’t want to be arrested.

    • Replies: @Alice in Wonderland
    @AnotherDad


    — computerized and adaptive like the AFQT which the SAT/ACT continue to refuse to do
     
    can someone explain this?
  52. Is this trend good for core Americans?

  53. @bomag
    @Henry Canaday


    Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields
     
    A) Are there going to be fields left to dominate in a Woke future?

    B) Does sorting by SAT score leave us with people able to organize and lead? High SAT scorers are not necessarily adept at holding things together.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    B) Does sorting by SAT score leave us with people able to organize and lead? High SAT scorers are not necessarily adept at holding things together.

    No you don’t get it. Whites deserve to have a higher standard of living than blacks because they’re better at college freshman level math and english courses and for that reason only. So in order to be principled and consistent, asians have to deserve to be better off than whites (since they’re even better at them). What part of that doesn’t make sense? You can’t possibly be suggesting that we try to come up with a sensible way to determine who deserves to be better off, such as their ability to actually generate well being for themselves and others. It has to be based on Freshman level college courses. Urgh!

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Talk about a straw man. The SATs (and ACTs) are g loaded (despite their best efforts - constructing a non- g loaded academic test is almost impossible). The ability to do well in freshman level courses is correlated with g. So is the ability to well in life. High IQ people don't do well in life because they get a high score on a test or even because they have been admitted to a university. They do well in life because they are high IQ. You and Kendi should get together and write a book on fallacious logic. You are like the Wizard of Oz who makes the Scarecrow "smart" by granting him a diploma.


    The Wizard: Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts — and with no more brains than you have. But! They have one thing you haven't got! A diploma! Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universita Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.
    Scarecrow: "Th.D."?
    The Wizard: That's, er, "Doctor of Thinkology".
    Scarecrow: [Rapid] The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. [Normal, amazed] Oh, joy! Rapture! I've got a brain! How can I ever thank you enough?
    The Wizard: Well, you can't!

     

    Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else's degree.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne, @Hypnotoad666, @nebulafox

    , @TWS
    @Guy De Champlagne

    What does deserve have to do with it?

  54. @Spangel
    I think part of the recently observed asian dominance at the top decile of test takers comes from the children of once poor asian immigrant groups reaching their natural potential. Asians were likely higher IQ on average (as evidenced by PISA tests across their own countries) and in the US most asians come from some form of selective immigration, even those who hold working class jobs in this country.

    South Asians were also heavily filtered through selective immigration. There are more and more of them in the "asian category" which is also likely bumping up the score. South asian intelligence seems poorly understood overall, and it's only generally understood that different endogamous groups can have different mean IQs. It's looking likely that some portion of the south asian smart fraction is as smart as the east asian smart fraction, but I don't think we know yet how many south asians are in this smart fraction based on genetic potential.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Hell, we don’t even understand white endogamous groups in America. It’s pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash) and that their mean IQs differ but they all get lumped under “white”. The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    In the future, they will be one group – the secular Jew-WASPs – because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes. The E. Asians will also get mixed in. The S. Asians will take another generation or two before they totally interbreed with the other American IQ elites.

    • Replies: @Spangel
    @Jack D

    I think you are right in that east asians will intermarry more and more with secular WASP-Jews. And there are other dynamics at play. There are hundreds of millions of asians with IQs over 100 who could immigrate here, completely drowning the current high IQ set in america. And Jews are bifurcated with a low TFR secular population that outmixes and a very high TFR orthodox population that doesn't, and I am not sure if the orthodox population is markedly lower IQ than the secular population. Thus, the pool of fully Jewish high IQ Americans might not shrink for a century to come.

    I think what we will come to see is an acceptance within the high IQ set of different races excelling at different niches. The Asians do stem professions. Jews do literature, media and law now that they've moved on from physics. South Asians mostly overlap with Jews. Over time, they will all intermarry. Really, what's the problem? I don't think every place in the earth has to be multi ethnic or immigrant friendly, but I am fine with at least one place fostering intermarriage between all the world's high IQ sub-populations. Not saying that place has to be all of America.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    It’s pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash)
     
    Hey, Jack, is there a segment of your tribe we can call "jewish trash"?

    Or is it "anti-semitic" to ask that?

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Jack D


    In the future, they will be one group – the secular Jew-WASPs – because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes.
     
    That's an interesting point. America does seem to be developing a biologically endogamous brahmin caste at a fairly rapid rate. It's sort of a synthesis of The Big Sort/Coming Apart/Idiocracy. How many generations of elite endogamy would it take to form a biological distinct caste?
    , @Polistra
    @Jack D


    The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).
     
    If you believe that, or expect anyone here to, you are a clown.
    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Jack D


    In the future, they will be one group – the secular Jew-WASPs – because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes.
     
    I don't know about IQ, but your interbreeding patterns are wrong:

    https://18doors.org/why_do_jews_marry_catholics/

    According to the U.S. Religion Landscape Survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 39% of intermarried Jews are married to Catholics, even though Protestants outnumber Catholics in the U.S. by nearly two to one. Only 23% of intermarried Jews are married to Protestants. Overall, slightly less than a third of all married Jews are intermarried.

    “This is something that everyone has known for years,” says Rabbi Arthur Blecher, who noted the trend in last year’s The New American Judaism: The Way Forward on Challenging Issues from Intermarriage to Jewish Identity. “Social workers, rabbis, and certainly Jews. No one knows exactly why. It is not as though the Jews are saying ‘Gee, I would like to marry a Catholic…'”

    While no one has formally studied the question, sociologist Steven Cohen, a professor at New York’s Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, boils the phenomenon down to one word: geography.

    “Jews are concentrated in the Northeast, and so are Catholics,” he says. “People tend to marry people they encounter. I can’t say that the Jews have any special affection for people who are Catholic.”

    Replies: @Dissident

  55. @John Milton’s Ghost
    I also remember that the first complaints about standardized testing that I heard, in the early 1990s, were not made on behalf of minorities but by white women. This is wholly anecdotal but a number of white women complained to me that tests did not measure real ability and that they just weren’t good test takers. Although I’d scored a 32 on the ACT I was sympathetic because I was skeptical that filling out bubbles translated to success. Plus I hoped to get laid. But I since recognize that such tests are better measures of ability than any other mechanisms or work arounds.

    Many of our social problems started with gender, before race. Women pulling away from discriminating mate selection, forgoing motherhood, demanding a place in the elite professions, and demanding that standards change to reflect their vision of the world: all this upended white culture.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they’ve secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they’re supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Would the grades be under-predicted if the test was more like their schoolwork? In other words, tests are forced by time to be free of "workshops," "projects," fluff, etc..

    , @Kaz
    @Guy De Champlagne

    I would argue grades are often worthless based on busy work and cajoling teachers..

    , @AnotherDad
    @Guy De Champlagne


    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they’ve secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they’re supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).
     
    A legitimate case only if your standard is grades.

    The tests are a window into basic--and utterly unsurprising--reality:
    -- Women are better at sit still and behave--listen to the lecture, do the homework, study the notes. Women are more cooperative and compliant as any analysis of their biological role would predict.

    -- Men are smarter--at least at "figure it out". Bigger brains, more processing power, more analytical, more rational orientation. (In social reading women are superior--more of their brainpower goes into reading the social landscape--again as you would expect.)

    If you standard is "college grades", then sure the test is biased against women. But if your standard is "learned useful knowledge and can apply it" or even more so "will move the field forward"--IOW their education is a good social investment--then the test scores are not biased at all.


    Furthermore, the SAT/ACTs are taken at a time when women are essentially physically mature--baked. Quite a few boys haven't even finished growing even in height when they take the tests. Some are still literally "boys".

    My guess is there is still some wiring up going on with some of the girls at this time but pretty much all are mentally "all there" in their intellectual capabilities by the time they leave high school at 18. And after that it is just learning stuff, life experience, maturity. While young men are still developing mentally, adding brain cells, developing their higher processing capabilities out to 20, 21... as well as learning, wising up, maturing.

    The SATs/ACTs almost certainly under-predict the male/female gap in intellectual capability.

    Replies: @Anon, @Guy De Champlagne

  56. @128
    Basically the quality of the data before 1990 was just bad, is being manipulated, or is testing only the more affluent East Asians who can afford to undergo IQ testing (keep in mind that in 1970 South Korea had a standard of living comparable to Malawi, Japan was at the same level as Mexico or Argentina, and Taiwan was at the same level as Vietnam), the quality of the data has gotten a lot better lately, and so the IQ tests are reflecting a more representative sample of the East Asian population. Also Chinese immigration to the US has become more elite for the past 20 years, which explains rising IQ scores among recent Chinese immigrants, plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth

    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective

    That’s ridiculous – high IQ people tend to be successful and successful people don’t give their kids up for adoption in the modern world. Not that many Asian kids in America are adopted to begin with – most are with their own parents. In the old days in America, sometimes high IQ coeds would get knocked up and not want to keep the baby (e.g. Steve Jobs’ mom) but since the widespread availability of abortion and birth control, that never happens.

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    They haven’t changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven’t changed the photo. I’m just waiting for the whole thing to be cancelled because they rarely if ever get any blacks (I’m guessing that of the tiny handful of “blacks” that have ever qualified, 0 are ADOS blacks).

    Anyway, from what I recall from the study, only a handful of adopted kids over the decades every qualified. Also the vast majority of qualifiers came from intact 2 parent homes.

    Americans may not want to adopt the most clearly damaged babies from Asian orphanages so there is some selection effect but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    • Replies: @128
    @Jack D

    If you look at the achievements of Koreans in the USSR (compared to Jews in the USSR, how many Korean Russian oligarchs are there?), or the achievements of Japanese Brazilians vs. Arab Brazillians it does not much with a population with an IQ of 120 or even 115, so they are probably just testing the people from the top schools in the East Asian countries in the 1970s, and as I said before, East Asian societies have gotten a lot more more Westernized and less traditional, and more individualistic since the 1990s, so IQ scores from 1990 onwards in East Asian countries have increased rather than decreased if East Asian culture is what is depressing IQ by 15 points (but then I though the argument of the IQist brain trust here is that traditional East Asian parenting styles increase IQ scores?), of course if culture can affect IQ tests by that much, by as much as 15 points, that basically means that IQ tests across countries, or even within countries with different cultures are rubbish in terms of the usefulness of their data.

    , @128
    @Jack D

    Actually there was a study out of the country of the frozen north that the high achieving student are the ones who tend to cheat the most, the lower achieving students are likely to care less about their grades from the start, and hence tend to cheat less. Considering that top employers and graduate schools require a perfect GPA to even be considered, that is to be expected.

    , @Calvin Hobbes
    @Jack D


    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):
    ...
    They haven’t changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven’t changed the photo.
     
    They used to send out a newsletter with pictures of all the latest qualifiers. Maybe they still do. The last one I saw was maybe 5 years ago. Yeah, lots of Asians (probably mostly Asians), and I don’t remember any blacks.

    The Mathematical Association of America has contests for various grade levels, like AMC 8 (for 8th grade and below), AMC 10 (for 10th grade and below), and AMC 12 (for 12th grade and below), and several others (AIME, USAMO). They used to have a web page showing the pictures of all the students who got perfect scores on the AMC tests. No more, maybe partly because of me. I would post comments (elsewhere) with links to those pages, saying, “Look at all the Asians, and note that there aren’t any blacks”.

    You can still see lists of names here:

    https://amc-reg.maa.org/reports/generalreports.aspx

    Asian dominance of MATHCOUNTS (math contest for grades 6-8) is extreme:

    https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2019%20National%20Final%20Standings_0.pdf

    Those are the names of the students who scored in the top quarter.

    I went to the MATHCOUNTS national competition several times. I don’t think there were ever any blacks on any of the 50 state teams. One year at least there were blacks on the team from the Virgin Islands (and they didn’t score in the top quarter).

    Replies: @Anonymous

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Jack D


    ...but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.
     
    You sure of that? China isn't the most meritocratic place. There is a lot of hidden talent wasting away in decrepit villages.

    Also, the one-child policy was directed toward urban professionals. The second child of such a couple could very well end up in a basket on the side of the road.

    A college classmate and her husband, both of whom went to grad school, adopted a roadside Chinese girl who, I'm told, is even smarter than her adoptive parents. Who were in the top 1% on the ACT.

    Replies: @Bill P

    , @Alice in Wonderland
    @Jack D

    I think the photo is heavily Asian also because Asians are more likely to show up for the photo.

  57. So dropping “Redskins” from NFL lingo has not raised Native American test performance? I’m listening to two radio guys reporting on the Washington-Dallas game just now and desperately trying to avoid uttering this heinous slur — and then one says that a Washington player “tomahawk-chopped the ball” away from a Dallas foe.

  58. @J.Ross
    OT And then one day, for no reason at all, people started body-slamming mainstream journalists.

    https://twitter.com/quip1/status/1320147040937017345?s=20

    Biden rally starring Nobel prize winner and two-term President Obama.

    https://postimg.cc/GH3BdWsJ

    Replies: @Farenheit

    Nobel prize winner and two-term President Obama.

    Yo, don’t forget 2 time Grammy Award winner, dammit!!

  59. @Guy De Champlagne
    @bomag

    B) Does sorting by SAT score leave us with people able to organize and lead? High SAT scorers are not necessarily adept at holding things together.

    No you don't get it. Whites deserve to have a higher standard of living than blacks because they're better at college freshman level math and english courses and for that reason only. So in order to be principled and consistent, asians have to deserve to be better off than whites (since they're even better at them). What part of that doesn't make sense? You can't possibly be suggesting that we try to come up with a sensible way to determine who deserves to be better off, such as their ability to actually generate well being for themselves and others. It has to be based on Freshman level college courses. Urgh!

    Replies: @Jack D, @TWS

    Talk about a straw man. The SATs (and ACTs) are g loaded (despite their best efforts – constructing a non- g loaded academic test is almost impossible). The ability to do well in freshman level courses is correlated with g. So is the ability to well in life. High IQ people don’t do well in life because they get a high score on a test or even because they have been admitted to a university. They do well in life because they are high IQ. You and Kendi should get together and write a book on fallacious logic. You are like the Wizard of Oz who makes the Scarecrow “smart” by granting him a diploma.

    The Wizard: Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts — and with no more brains than you have. But! They have one thing you haven’t got! A diploma! Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universita Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.
    Scarecrow: “Th.D.”?
    The Wizard: That’s, er, “Doctor of Thinkology”.
    Scarecrow: [Rapid] The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. [Normal, amazed] Oh, joy! Rapture! I’ve got a brain! How can I ever thank you enough?
    The Wizard: Well, you can’t!

    Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    • Replies: @Guy De Champlagne
    @Jack D

    Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    That's why rich people don't bribe their children's way into these schools and there is not intense pressure from every ethnic interest group imaginable to secure more slots for their favored group. Because it doesn't make people any better off to get into elite colleges. Exactly

    But then off course you already (half?) knew that, because you speak about the value of degree (and implicitly value of connections) rather than the value of knowledge or ability gained in these schools.

    And G is so important that companies are all pushing up against the legal limit in every way imaginable to maximize the G of their employees as evidenced by all the recent court cases around the issue, not just the one from the 1970s. And definitely not relying the chain of events set in place by a non-iq test designed to predict freshman college grades taken when people are 16 and 17 years old.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @Jack D


    You are like the Wizard of Oz who makes the Scarecrow “smart” by granting him a diploma.
     
    The scarecrow won't be any smarter but an Ivy League diploma will definitely get him a lucrative job at a company that needs to fill its diversity quota by hiring people of straw.
    , @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    > They do well in life because they are high IQ.

    They do well in life because they are conscientious and hard-working. IQ is positively correlated with that, for reasons both inherent and environmental. But correlation is just that: correlation. Life is probabilistic.

    What a high IQ does is you give you more processing power in your brain, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't automatically mean you'll be creative, have a great work ethic, will be resilient and persistent, or anything else. Since IQ does include the ability to predict outcomes, that makes it more likely that you'll figure out that working hard today means a better outcome tomorrow. But children are children, no matter how bright they are: they need to be trained. They will be heavily impacted by the environment around them. If you have parents that don't teach you this kind of stuff, you aren't as likely-which is not to say it is impossible-to gain those traits, regardless of your own IQ.

    (I should also note that having high IQ parents is not necessary to learning the value of hard work and conscientiousness. What a high IQ does is give you more options on what to do with that hard work and conscientiousness, and also makes it more likely you'll have parents who value that, too. Culture can sometimes override this, but the impact of that is pretty limited and self-selecting.)

    This leads to the nature vs. nurture question. High IQ kids tend to be born to high IQ parents, especially in this age of assortative mating. But you do get your outliers: you'll have high IQ parents produce mediocre children, or you'll have mediocre parents (sometimes you had a high IQ grandparent) produce brilliant children. In the case of the former, that's behind the dynamic of "EVERY KID MUST GO TO COLLEGE" in upper-middle class America, given the deep, crippling social shame behind non-professional jobs. In the latter, stuff like magnet schools in inner cities exist for them, though you'll note that the majority of kids at a Bronx Science or Stuy come from Asian cultures where even blue-collar parents would rather see kids go barefoot than uneducated, not too different from the working-class parents of many Jews at CCNY in 1920/1930s NYC.

    Anyway, if you are lazy or apathetic or have other overriding problems, a high IQ isn't going to do much for you. It might even prove counterproductive in certain contexts, especially when you combine that with weaknesses elsewhere. IQ exists, and it does play an important role. But it isn't everything. The other thing is that once you get over a certain point of mental power, for non-geniuses (and that's the *overwhelming* majority of people), other factors become more important in determining success. Social skills, ability to network, conscientiousness, interests/values, etc.

    >Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that's done is create more service workers with bachelor's degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It's not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I'm not against education. I'm against useless, stupid credentialism that pressures everybody go to university at 18 years old, regardless of ability, life goals, or maturity.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Spangel, @128, @Anonymous, @anon

  60. @Jack D
    @128


    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective
     
    That's ridiculous - high IQ people tend to be successful and successful people don't give their kids up for adoption in the modern world. Not that many Asian kids in America are adopted to begin with - most are with their own parents. In the old days in America, sometimes high IQ coeds would get knocked up and not want to keep the baby (e.g. Steve Jobs' mom) but since the widespread availability of abortion and birth control, that never happens.

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    https://cty.jhu.edu/sebin/x/u/study_of_exceptional_talent.jpg

    They haven't changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven't changed the photo. I'm just waiting for the whole thing to be cancelled because they rarely if ever get any blacks (I'm guessing that of the tiny handful of "blacks" that have ever qualified, 0 are ADOS blacks).

    Anyway, from what I recall from the study, only a handful of adopted kids over the decades every qualified. Also the vast majority of qualifiers came from intact 2 parent homes.

    Americans may not want to adopt the most clearly damaged babies from Asian orphanages so there is some selection effect but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    Replies: @128, @128, @Calvin Hobbes, @Reg Cæsar, @Alice in Wonderland

    If you look at the achievements of Koreans in the USSR (compared to Jews in the USSR, how many Korean Russian oligarchs are there?), or the achievements of Japanese Brazilians vs. Arab Brazillians it does not much with a population with an IQ of 120 or even 115, so they are probably just testing the people from the top schools in the East Asian countries in the 1970s, and as I said before, East Asian societies have gotten a lot more more Westernized and less traditional, and more individualistic since the 1990s, so IQ scores from 1990 onwards in East Asian countries have increased rather than decreased if East Asian culture is what is depressing IQ by 15 points (but then I though the argument of the IQist brain trust here is that traditional East Asian parenting styles increase IQ scores?), of course if culture can affect IQ tests by that much, by as much as 15 points, that basically means that IQ tests across countries, or even within countries with different cultures are rubbish in terms of the usefulness of their data.

  61. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @SFG

    Your use of the word "we" is quaint. As a White living in this place called the United States, I'm much more concerned with the tribal competition in my backyard.

    The days of hiding behind "my fellow" whatever are over.

    Replies: @SFG

    I’m not your enemy, but I’ll forward your complaints to the NYT editorial board.

    I’m sure they’ll pay attention to me.

    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @SFG

    The typical American soldier in WWII probably had more in common with the average German or Japanese soldier than they did with their own leaders.

    So what. They were still on opposite sides.

    Welcome to the multi-everything country that your leaders pushed so hard to create, and my leaders were so stupid to follow.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Dissident

  62. @Buffalo Joe
    I favor "test in" schools. Exceptional ability should be treated as a precious resource. People care more about snail darters and barn owls than kids denied an opportunity to succeed. Have the black scholars formulate a test based on black American culture. This test will be for blacks only and the top ten percent get a place in the criteria schools. Once in, they are on their own. No changes to the curriculum, sink or swim.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Hannah Katz, @MBlanc46

    They tried this in the 1970s. The results were just the opposite of what you would think, as they included white kids in the test and they actually beat the black kids worse than the standard fare tests. So those who came up with the idea were labeled as racists and the blacks that helped develop the test were branded as Uncle Toms. Funny thing, they were well meaning white liberals. Oh well…

  63. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Henry Canaday

    Jews have way higher verbal IQs which is conducive to achieving power, Chinese are more adapted to being good at maths and whatnot.

    We will see the domination of the media by Jews and a domination of the STEM departments by Chinese.

    Replies: @SFG

    ‘Will’?

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
  64. @Jack D
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Talk about a straw man. The SATs (and ACTs) are g loaded (despite their best efforts - constructing a non- g loaded academic test is almost impossible). The ability to do well in freshman level courses is correlated with g. So is the ability to well in life. High IQ people don't do well in life because they get a high score on a test or even because they have been admitted to a university. They do well in life because they are high IQ. You and Kendi should get together and write a book on fallacious logic. You are like the Wizard of Oz who makes the Scarecrow "smart" by granting him a diploma.


    The Wizard: Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts — and with no more brains than you have. But! They have one thing you haven't got! A diploma! Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universita Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.
    Scarecrow: "Th.D."?
    The Wizard: That's, er, "Doctor of Thinkology".
    Scarecrow: [Rapid] The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. [Normal, amazed] Oh, joy! Rapture! I've got a brain! How can I ever thank you enough?
    The Wizard: Well, you can't!

     

    Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else's degree.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne, @Hypnotoad666, @nebulafox

    Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    That’s why rich people don’t bribe their children’s way into these schools and there is not intense pressure from every ethnic interest group imaginable to secure more slots for their favored group. Because it doesn’t make people any better off to get into elite colleges. Exactly

    But then off course you already (half?) knew that, because you speak about the value of degree (and implicitly value of connections) rather than the value of knowledge or ability gained in these schools.

    And G is so important that companies are all pushing up against the legal limit in every way imaginable to maximize the G of their employees as evidenced by all the recent court cases around the issue, not just the one from the 1970s. And definitely not relying the chain of events set in place by a non-iq test designed to predict freshman college grades taken when people are 16 and 17 years old.

  65. @Jack D
    @Spangel

    Hell, we don't even understand white endogamous groups in America. It's pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash) and that their mean IQs differ but they all get lumped under "white". The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    In the future, they will be one group - the secular Jew-WASPs - because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes. The E. Asians will also get mixed in. The S. Asians will take another generation or two before they totally interbreed with the other American IQ elites.

    Replies: @Spangel, @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @Polistra, @Bardon Kaldian

    I think you are right in that east asians will intermarry more and more with secular WASP-Jews. And there are other dynamics at play. There are hundreds of millions of asians with IQs over 100 who could immigrate here, completely drowning the current high IQ set in america. And Jews are bifurcated with a low TFR secular population that outmixes and a very high TFR orthodox population that doesn’t, and I am not sure if the orthodox population is markedly lower IQ than the secular population. Thus, the pool of fully Jewish high IQ Americans might not shrink for a century to come.

    I think what we will come to see is an acceptance within the high IQ set of different races excelling at different niches. The Asians do stem professions. Jews do literature, media and law now that they’ve moved on from physics. South Asians mostly overlap with Jews. Over time, they will all intermarry. Really, what’s the problem? I don’t think every place in the earth has to be multi ethnic or immigrant friendly, but I am fine with at least one place fostering intermarriage between all the world’s high IQ sub-populations. Not saying that place has to be all of America.

  66. @John Derbyshire
    @Henry Canaday

    Importing an overclass https://tinyurl.com/yywk4u3e

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Spangel

    Not every elite institution has to do the same thing. Let some high schools be exam schools where 80% of the student body is Asian. So what? Let them have it. No law is saying that has to be the only kind of gifted school available. We can have schools that focus on liberal arts, leadership and whatever else, all of which have selective admissions. Let some of them do holistic admissions. Let some of them do racially balanced quotas. Many different kinds of schools can be schools for the smart set.

    In the 21st century, the pie is big. There are thousands of universities and thousands of jobs where one can achieve affluence and influence. So what if the asians dominate data science? America is also a huge importer of entertainment, branding, advertising and more, and not every field needs to belong to asians just because asians are good at taking tests.

  67. @AndrewR
    @Henry Canaday

    That would not be a "gain" and we definitely don't need to "get used" to these people in our country. The majority of "Asians" in the US are Chinese. China clearly has no problem using them as a fifth column. And these paper-Americans are often far too happy to comply. Even more outrageously, non-Chinese "Asians" have been subsumed into a pan-"Asian" identity which is unquestionably but not explicitly Chinese in nature. So criticizing the Chinese government is now considered by many people in the media and government to be an "attack" on all "Asians," including the Korean grandma down the street. I wish I were making this up.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne

    Also, even if Asians were a net gain in every other way, increasing diversity is bad and the whatever positives they brought would have to counteract that in order to actually bring benefit.

    The whole thing is ridiculous. The most successful societies are overwhelmingly monoethnic white ones.

  68. Whites breed dysgenically now. Are we surprised that low IQ droolers named Jaxxon & General Lee, born in the Deep South, are 75IQ dullards? They were in the 1860s too, there were just eugenic wars to put them back in the ground at 19 instead of having a coterie of out-of-wedlock progeny.

    • Troll: GeneralRipper
  69. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    This could be really bad, actually. Will whites accept being virtually locked out of high IQ roles? Gentiles might, but would Jews? It would certainly mean a closer relationship with China. We could take lots of Korean immigrants, but as the US declines accelerates, and China’s per capital output equals ours, and then keeps growing faster than ours, how many Koreans will want to come? American born Chinese are likely to feel more drawn towards the Chinese than would say, Irish Americans.

    Being wealthier per capital would put a wet blanket on US cultural hegemony. Chinese action movies would have stunts that put ours to shame, as they could get larger investments in China than American ones can. Conservative whites will seriously lose their shit the first time Chinese opposition shuts down a wargasm in the mideast. All Americans will be in for a reckoning and China far surpasses us on material and quality of life living standards. The saddest thing? It won’t even shut down illegal immigration, Poor Mexicans and Salvadorans will still live better here than at home, not to mention that the US economy will start specialize in low wage industries. The management consulting types might think we are going to specialize in high IQ industries, too. China will have a lock on businesses that require a 145 IQ, simply because there is a much larger number of Chinese above that, and those jobs will benefit from a 160 IQ, and those are far more common in a 115 mean IQ China than here. Plus, Chinese consultants will understand the business and market better than Americans.

    There is always the hope that Chins will show less imperialism than the west did, and the hope that China will be less interested in the internal workings of other societies. I know a lot of people here have swallowed the yellow pill, and think China will save us as the US collapses under the weight of diversity. They may only be interested in securing resource flows, but even that will likely come with political restrictions. But Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, and the MSM already restrict our political opinions. What does it matter if the censors are Chinese? The prison sentences would matter to individual dissents imorisoned, but the effect on the rest of us would be the mere chilling of speech that we already have.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Rob

    "Poor Mexicans and Salvadorans will still live better here than at home, not to mention that the US economy will start specialize in low wage industries."

    Quite ironic really, US elites shifted production to low-wage countries, perhaps one day the US will be the low-wage country where goods are assembled from Far Eastern components for the wealthy Far Eastern markets.

  70. @Jack D
    @128


    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective
     
    That's ridiculous - high IQ people tend to be successful and successful people don't give their kids up for adoption in the modern world. Not that many Asian kids in America are adopted to begin with - most are with their own parents. In the old days in America, sometimes high IQ coeds would get knocked up and not want to keep the baby (e.g. Steve Jobs' mom) but since the widespread availability of abortion and birth control, that never happens.

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    https://cty.jhu.edu/sebin/x/u/study_of_exceptional_talent.jpg

    They haven't changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven't changed the photo. I'm just waiting for the whole thing to be cancelled because they rarely if ever get any blacks (I'm guessing that of the tiny handful of "blacks" that have ever qualified, 0 are ADOS blacks).

    Anyway, from what I recall from the study, only a handful of adopted kids over the decades every qualified. Also the vast majority of qualifiers came from intact 2 parent homes.

    Americans may not want to adopt the most clearly damaged babies from Asian orphanages so there is some selection effect but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    Replies: @128, @128, @Calvin Hobbes, @Reg Cæsar, @Alice in Wonderland

    Actually there was a study out of the country of the frozen north that the high achieving student are the ones who tend to cheat the most, the lower achieving students are likely to care less about their grades from the start, and hence tend to cheat less. Considering that top employers and graduate schools require a perfect GPA to even be considered, that is to be expected.

  71. Thank you reddit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    NEW TEST: 2020 July ACT Form C01 – Full Exam with Answers and Scoring from SATACTprep

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @128

    This is not a stolen copy that can be used to cheat. Nowadays the testing companies release their previous tests, complete with scoring keys, after each administration. That's all this is.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  72. @Spud Boy
    I only took the ACT for college admission, back in 1979. I scored two standard deviations above the average black.

    Replies: @DRA

  73. Anonymous[581] • Disclaimer says:

    Some Guy says: 2020 ACT scores by race converted to IQ: 107.4 Asian 100.0 White

    This is the funniest part.

    Asians are demonstrably not more intelligent than whites in the real world. At the individual level or across whole nations.

    Break out the East Asians as a subset and it still doesn’t compute.

    US tech companies show a clear pattern: white guy founders early period excellence followed later by heavy asian staffing then stasis and decline.

    Tip of the iceberg of unanswerable questions: Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?

    The evidence is all around us that Asian IQ has bizarre gaps in applicability to the real world.

    Perhaps the testing itself is the message. The data is useful to certain interested parties. Doessn’t matter if anyone is actually smart or dumb. Like chicom bat flu the testing itself is the message. The data is useful doesn’t matter if anyone is actually sick or healthy.

    The test results are their own reality.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Anonymous

    "Tip of the iceberg of unanswerable questions: Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?"

    Maybe the intellectual skillset for a successful lawyer in the US isn't the same skillset that, say, is useful for dominating production of carbon fibre or high-purity silicon, you know, the stuff that keeps planes in the air or smartphones ticking over.

    https://www.polyestertime.com/japan-toray-carbon-fiber/


    https://www.bizvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Largest-Semiconductor-Companies.png

    Replies: @128, @Jack D

  74. @Henry's Cat

    The first nest of Asian giant hornets found in the US has successfully been destroyed by scientists.

    The nest, in the state of Washington, was found by putting tracker devices on the hornets and it was sucked out of a tree using a vacuum hose.

    The invasive species insects, known as "murder hornets", have a powerful sting and can spit venom.
     
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54681723

    Replies: @The Wild Geese Howard

    Wake me up when the alien invasion psyop kicks off.

    Thanks.

  75. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    “ arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated”

    Lol no. Anyone seriously believe that?

    AJs having a 112-115IQ leads to massive outperformance in dozens of different g-loaded domains despite a population of under 15M.

    If NE Asians had such IQs and a population of 1.4 BILLION, where’s their comparable accomplishments?

    There’s no way their environment is depressing their IQ by 10 points either, probably not even 1 point. Japan, Taiwan, HK and Singapore have been wealthy for several generations. People are not delicate orchids that need a special perfect environment to flower. And even if they did, the junk food fed and leftist-dominated US education system is hardly superior to how Japanese and Koreans raise their kids.

    Trans-racial adoption studies have been producing wonky results for a long time.

    If anything, I think NE Asian genotypical g may be below the 1/3 SD advantage over NW Euro Whites you typically see:

    1. No high quality testing of rural Chinese, who are half of the total NE Asian population.

    2. NE Asians have a deep “test prep/cram school” culture that causes them to over-perform their IQ on tests.

    3. NE Asians who have migrated to the West, and do so well on our tests, are selected for intelligence directly and also for high income, work ethic, and openness, which are all correlated with intelligence.

    4. Per capita scientific output in developed Asian nations is below Western nations, when it should be well higher if they have 106 IQs.

  76. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Buffalo Joe

    You're still trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Separation based on tribe is the answer - always was the answer - whether it makes Whites feel icky or not.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buffalo Joe

    Separation based on tribe is the answer – always was the answer…

    Then we were screwed from the very beginning.

    …whether it makes Whites feel icky or not.

    Dirty work in the hot sun made whites feel icky. And still does. So we pollute our territory to avoid it. That’s what it is–pollution. Ask any Indian.

    I’m just glad my ancestors chose the frigid mountains and forests, where it’s white to this day. Literally– it snowed this week.

    • Replies: @Polistra
    @Reg Cæsar


    I’m just glad my ancestors chose the frigid mountains and forests, where it’s white to this day. Literally– it snowed this week.
     
    No one in your extended family has ever been capable of relocating?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  77. Anonymous[581] • Disclaimer says:

    A good macro global test for all peoples of the world is SEAFARING.

    It’s a challenge that is distributed relatively equally across the planet excepting landlocked peoples of course.

    And so we can examine the Asian contributions and influence on the subject.

    Sorry. Asians lag in the seafaring endeavor. All aspects of it. Not saying they’re absolutely dead in the water but they sorely lag.

    The entire history of SEAFARING is a massive global problem solving continuum. And we know who has led the way. We know who has had the most influence by far.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    People from southeast Asia got to Madagascar and Hawaii by sea.

    Replies: @Alice in Wonderland

    , @Eagle Eye
    @Anonymous


    People from southeast Asia got to Madagascar and Hawaii by sea.
     
    The Polynesians did not merely randomly travel over vast distances, but they apparently had very serious navigation skills enabling them to return to their point of departure. Traveling East, Polynesians settled Easter Island.

    In fact, there can be no doubt that Polynesians landed in Africa and South America, but so far, little direct evidence of such visits has been publicized. (Note that such evidence would not be welcomed by most "scholars" in the field and may have been hushed up.)

    Unlike Madagascar and Hawaii which had been uninhabited before the arrival of Polynesian settlers, South America already had Amerind populations, so any genetic traces of occasional Polynesian visits would have become diluted and may have disappeared entirely.

    , @Rahan
    @Anonymous


    A good macro global test for all peoples of the world is SEAFARING.
     
    Traditionally the world is divided into:
    1) Sea Empires
    2) Land Empires

    The US inherited from Britain the mantle of a sea empire. Russia and China have always been land empires. The Vikings were sea-farers. The ancient Egyptians and Romans--not so much.

    One imagines a proto-viking explaining to a Mesopotamian that they can never have a successful civilization if they don't sail to Greenland on a longboat.

    Russia, BTW, reached space first, in spite of being a land empire.

    Likewise, sea empires encourage the appearance of "scientific racism" of genocidal proportions far more than land empires (where things remain on the normal level of basic xenophobia; modern leftists like to confuse the two). Land empires incorporate neighbors as they expand, and tend to provide special status to the conquered titular nations, and start aristocracy-interbreeding programs. Whereas the sea empires can convince themselves the far off natives aren't really human, and if they screw everything up, simply hop on a ship and leave.

    Hitler tried to apply Western sea empire logic to his land expansion into the Slavic east, once the German dream of being allowed into the proper colonial game expired.

    After the collapse of the USSR, Russia tried a number of times to "merge" with Europe and thus create a workable fusion of sea empire and land empire civilizations. The extended hand was not taken. Now're the world is back to the old Great Game between sea empires and land empires once more.

    Nations built by Eurasian tyrants vs nations built by pirates and privateers. The latter quite taken over by a certain desert nation.

    Last but not least, just a curio for those who collect such: the Khazar Jews financed the Viking pillaging of Western Christianity when that was happening.

    The pagan nordic pirates were encouraged and financed to attack western Christianity by Khazar Jewish princes. This was the "investment" that made that business model possible. Almost impossible to find mention of this outside of very specialized literature.

    Replies: @Jack D

  78. @Bardon Kaldian
    Blacks score low because they can't do better.

    American Indians score low because they are defeated peoples.

    Replies: @Truth

    Please expound on this purely brilliant thesis.

  79. @Jack D
    @Spangel

    Hell, we don't even understand white endogamous groups in America. It's pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash) and that their mean IQs differ but they all get lumped under "white". The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    In the future, they will be one group - the secular Jew-WASPs - because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes. The E. Asians will also get mixed in. The S. Asians will take another generation or two before they totally interbreed with the other American IQ elites.

    Replies: @Spangel, @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @Polistra, @Bardon Kaldian

    It’s pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash)

    Hey, Jack, is there a segment of your tribe we can call “jewish trash”?

    Or is it “anti-semitic” to ask that?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if "trash" means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to "bleed off" into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.

    Replies: @black sea, @Mr. Anon, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Thomm

  80. @128
    Basically the quality of the data before 1990 was just bad, is being manipulated, or is testing only the more affluent East Asians who can afford to undergo IQ testing (keep in mind that in 1970 South Korea had a standard of living comparable to Malawi, Japan was at the same level as Mexico or Argentina, and Taiwan was at the same level as Vietnam), the quality of the data has gotten a lot better lately, and so the IQ tests are reflecting a more representative sample of the East Asian population. Also Chinese immigration to the US has become more elite for the past 20 years, which explains rising IQ scores among recent Chinese immigrants, plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Truth

    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population

    LOL, hey maybe you guys can adopt one of those children from a Chinese Nuclear Physicist/College professor, couples that is up for adoption…

  81. @Voltarde
    Significant nature and nurture variables related to this problem are parental and individual child willingness to resist the destructive influences of video games and other addictive online time-wasters. As was remarked earlier about the baleful influence of television content, it's not just the sometimes questionable behaviors that it promotes, it's the behaviors that it prevents by wasting your (and your children's) time. One of the self-sabotaging ironies of our computing technology-driven addictions is the increasing intellectual sophistication of warehouse-scale distributed computing ("the cloud"), advanced semiconductor hardware design (NVIDIA starting out with graphics cards, then AI acceleration hardware mainly used to help create more addictive online experiences, now combined with Mellanox and ARM to extend their tentacles everywhere), network protocols and global fiber and satellite infrastructure, software frameworks, etc., etc. resulting in an overall dumbing-down of society's human intellectual potential. This dumbing-down disproportionately affects those at the developmental peak of their intellectual potential (youths) and those who would most benefit by cherishing it (evolutionarily less well-endowed populations).

    Replies: @Anonymous

    This dumbing-down disproportionately affects those at the developmental peak of their intellectual potential (youths) and those who would most benefit by cherishing it

    What does the “it” refer to?

  82. @International Jew
    The way those trends are going, we'll never achieve No Child Left Behind's goals.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Mr. Anon

    The way those trends are going, we’ll never achieve No Child Left Behind’s goals.

    Next you’ll be telling me we might not be on track to achieve a “Great Society”! Why, it’s almost as if the last 55 years of effort have been in vain!

  83. Plus the SAT has recently won a bunch of contracts from state legislatures to give their test to everybody in the public schools, a strategy pioneered by the ACT. So, while the number of students taking the SAT has gone up in the last few years, meaning the SAT is scraping the bottom of the barrel harder, the number of ACT test-takers has declined, I think in part because the SAT won some statewide contracts away from the ACT.

    I hadn’t even heard about this phenomenon of making the SAT mandatory. But I think it solves the mystery of why scores tanked for everyone except Asians in 2016. That seems to be exactly the year when a bunch of states and individual school districts started making the SAT and/or ACT mandatory for all 11th graders.

    People who voluntarily take the test are obviously those who were already planning on going to college and are from the top of the IQ and diligence curves. Kids who are forced to take the test against their will are obviously less able and also have no motive to do well since they don’t need the score for college admission.

    Mandatory testing could also easily explain the rise in relative Asian scores because: (a) A far higher percentage of Asians were already taking the tests (e.g., going from the top 50% of Asians to 100% of Asians won’t lower scores as much as going from the top 10% of blacks to 100% of blacks); and (b) The places that mandate SAT/ACT are coincidentally all the places that don’t have a lot of Asians.

    Probably everyone’s scores would have gone up massively when they changed the scale and format of the SAT in 2016. But that effect was overwhelmed (for everyone but Asians) by the simultaneous phenomenon of massively dumbing down the test-taking pool with mandatory testing.

    Someone could easily test this hypothesis by looking at the scores in the places that mandated the test and seeing how they drag the averages down for each group.

    In total, 20 states (plus Washington, DC) are contracted with the College Board to administer the SAT to some or all high school juniors for free. Let’s go through the exact situation for each state, one at a time. (Note that these statements only apply to public school students.)

    Colorado
    As of the 2016-17 school year, all Colorado juniors in public schools will take the SAT.

    Connecticut
    As of the 2015-16 school year, all Connecticut juniors will take the SAT.

    Delaware
    In 2016, the SAT replaced Delaware’s Smarter Assessment state test for 11th graders.

    District of Columbia
    Although it’s not required, the SAT is offered for free to all juniors and seniors in Washington, DC.

    Idaho
    Each year, Idaho offers a free administration of the SAT to high school juniors.

    Illinois
    Beginning with the 2016-17 school year, all Illinois juniors must take the SAT.

    Maine
    Each year, Maine offers a free administration of the SAT to high school juniors.

    Michigan
    Michigan administered the SAT to juniors statewide for the first time in the 2015-16 school year. Previously, students were given the ACT.

    New Hampshire
    As of spring 2016, all New Hampshire juniors must take the SAT.

    Ohio
    To graduate high school in Ohio, students must meet threshold scores on the SAT or ACT.

    Oklahoma
    Students in Oklahoma must take either the SAT or ACT, with the choice of test being determined by each individual school district.

    Rhode Island
    Since the 2017-18 school year, all Rhode Island 11th graders must take the SAT.

    South Carolina
    Students in South Carolina must take either the SAT or ACT. Which test you take will be determined by your school district.

    Tennessee
    Students must take either the SAT or ACT.

    West Virginia
    All juniors must take the SAT unless taking the West Virginia Alternative Summer Assessment.https://blog.prepscholar.com/which-states-require-the-sat

    • Thanks: Polistra
  84. Anonymous[129] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spangel
    At this point, I am not opposed to universities moving past using "standardized" test scores. It is not because asians score well that I say this, but because the original use of these tests is so distorted in the current environment. It is true that the test prep industry modestly reduces the value of these test. When these tests began and became available to the masses, test prep was rare and the tests really could identify intelligent students out of a group. Test prep has modest effects, but it does have effects and it isn't sought out by all parents or students equally.

    But more than test prep, the trend of affluent or cagey parents getting extended time and other advantages for their children really ruins the value of the test. Now rich parents go from psychologist to psychologist until they find the one that says Johnny is dyslexic and needs extra time. It is known that these concessions for "learning disabilities" are given disproportionately to the wealthy and that extra time really does impact a person's ability to score well on what is supposed to be a timed test.

    Since that all is occurring, I say abolish the test. Let these elite universities admit students from a lottery.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Since that all is occurring, I say abolish the test. Let these elite universities admit students from a lottery.

    No, let them continue to admit kids who benefited from either test prep or medical accommodation. That, to hear you tell it, means that we send more true talent to less “elite” schools, which is all to the good. Spread the wealth.

  85. @indocon
    @Henry Canaday

    Not a surprise when you have a society which for 500 years has chosen its elites through competitive testing, not based on the family you were born in. When you enter the forbidden city in Beijing, the first court is where the emperor had his enemies and their families executed, normal stuff outside most forty and palaces in world, but the second Court is where competitive exams were held since 15th century for all high level positions in the empire. I think that is something completely unique to the last 2 Chinese dynasties.

    Replies: @Lot

    “ Not a surprise when you have a society which for 500 years has chosen its elites through competitive testing, not based on the family you were born in. ”

    Can you provide evidence that China was more meritocratic, where children of elites had less advantages, than Europe?

    As for the Mandarin tests, you think Europeans didn’t have systems for identification of bright boys and sending them to be educated for intellectual jobs?

    Isaac Newton was the son of a middle class farmer and stepson of a rural pastor. That didn’t prevent him from getting a quality education at a Latin grammar school and then Oxford.

    Galileo was the son of a lute player and music theorist who was deeply in debt to pay his daughters’ dowries, but that didn’t stop him from getting a quality primary education and then enrolling in the University of Pisa in 1580.

    No Chinese with a Mandarin education can compare with either of these men, or dozens of other great Europeans from non-elite families.

    A standardized high stakes test is an impressive innovation, but it didn’t have some massive eugenic consequences.

  86. @Steve Richter
    Is there evidence of Asian achievement gap in work place? Asians have been killing it in terms of attendance at NYC elite public schools for decades now. Where are the tech startups they went on to start? Hedge funds running on the algorithms they devised? Which of the emerging covid vaccines and treatments have been pioneered by Asian SAT high scorers?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Anon, @1661er

    Steve. Steve. They invented the wheelbarrow. Why do they need to keep on proving themselves? After we’re murdered or disenfranchised by people who think they can voudonically order lightning onto their enemies, the least creative ancestor-worshipper will one day find himself forced into an emergency need to invent, and then he will probably acquit himself just fine. What have we created lately, SodaStream? Posted from my Samsung.

  87. @Guy De Champlagne
    @John Milton’s Ghost

    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they've secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they're supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Kaz, @AnotherDad

    Would the grades be under-predicted if the test was more like their schoolwork? In other words, tests are forced by time to be free of “workshops,” “projects,” fluff, etc..

  88. @Jack D
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Talk about a straw man. The SATs (and ACTs) are g loaded (despite their best efforts - constructing a non- g loaded academic test is almost impossible). The ability to do well in freshman level courses is correlated with g. So is the ability to well in life. High IQ people don't do well in life because they get a high score on a test or even because they have been admitted to a university. They do well in life because they are high IQ. You and Kendi should get together and write a book on fallacious logic. You are like the Wizard of Oz who makes the Scarecrow "smart" by granting him a diploma.


    The Wizard: Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts — and with no more brains than you have. But! They have one thing you haven't got! A diploma! Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universita Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.
    Scarecrow: "Th.D."?
    The Wizard: That's, er, "Doctor of Thinkology".
    Scarecrow: [Rapid] The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. [Normal, amazed] Oh, joy! Rapture! I've got a brain! How can I ever thank you enough?
    The Wizard: Well, you can't!

     

    Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else's degree.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne, @Hypnotoad666, @nebulafox

    You are like the Wizard of Oz who makes the Scarecrow “smart” by granting him a diploma.

    The scarecrow won’t be any smarter but an Ivy League diploma will definitely get him a lucrative job at a company that needs to fill its diversity quota by hiring people of straw.

  89. @Steve Richter
    Is there evidence of Asian achievement gap in work place? Asians have been killing it in terms of attendance at NYC elite public schools for decades now. Where are the tech startups they went on to start? Hedge funds running on the algorithms they devised? Which of the emerging covid vaccines and treatments have been pioneered by Asian SAT high scorers?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Anon, @1661er

    Well, here’s the ranking of ethnic groups in America by per capita income:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_per_capita_income

  90. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: Tampax Science Team finally acknowledges that some men have monthly periods too!

    Oddly, they’ve also rightly opened themselves to corporate bigotry claims, since they’ve acknowledged the need, yet haven’t made available “Tampax for Men,” or anything if the sort.

    Men are bleeding, Tampax!

    MEN ARE BLEEDING!!!

    How long must we bleed, Tampax?!

    HOW LONG MUST WE BLEED ALONE?!!!

    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    @Anonymous

    Alice Cooper lied to me? Next thing you'll be telling me Iggy doesn't want to be my dog anymore.

  91. SAT and ACT so racist against whites.

  92. @Jack D
    @Guy De Champlagne

    Talk about a straw man. The SATs (and ACTs) are g loaded (despite their best efforts - constructing a non- g loaded academic test is almost impossible). The ability to do well in freshman level courses is correlated with g. So is the ability to well in life. High IQ people don't do well in life because they get a high score on a test or even because they have been admitted to a university. They do well in life because they are high IQ. You and Kendi should get together and write a book on fallacious logic. You are like the Wizard of Oz who makes the Scarecrow "smart" by granting him a diploma.


    The Wizard: Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts — and with no more brains than you have. But! They have one thing you haven't got! A diploma! Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universita Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.
    Scarecrow: "Th.D."?
    The Wizard: That's, er, "Doctor of Thinkology".
    Scarecrow: [Rapid] The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. [Normal, amazed] Oh, joy! Rapture! I've got a brain! How can I ever thank you enough?
    The Wizard: Well, you can't!

     

    Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else's degree.

    Replies: @Guy De Champlagne, @Hypnotoad666, @nebulafox

    > They do well in life because they are high IQ.

    They do well in life because they are conscientious and hard-working. IQ is positively correlated with that, for reasons both inherent and environmental. But correlation is just that: correlation. Life is probabilistic.

    What a high IQ does is you give you more processing power in your brain, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn’t automatically mean you’ll be creative, have a great work ethic, will be resilient and persistent, or anything else. Since IQ does include the ability to predict outcomes, that makes it more likely that you’ll figure out that working hard today means a better outcome tomorrow. But children are children, no matter how bright they are: they need to be trained. They will be heavily impacted by the environment around them. If you have parents that don’t teach you this kind of stuff, you aren’t as likely-which is not to say it is impossible-to gain those traits, regardless of your own IQ.

    (I should also note that having high IQ parents is not necessary to learning the value of hard work and conscientiousness. What a high IQ does is give you more options on what to do with that hard work and conscientiousness, and also makes it more likely you’ll have parents who value that, too. Culture can sometimes override this, but the impact of that is pretty limited and self-selecting.)

    This leads to the nature vs. nurture question. High IQ kids tend to be born to high IQ parents, especially in this age of assortative mating. But you do get your outliers: you’ll have high IQ parents produce mediocre children, or you’ll have mediocre parents (sometimes you had a high IQ grandparent) produce brilliant children. In the case of the former, that’s behind the dynamic of “EVERY KID MUST GO TO COLLEGE” in upper-middle class America, given the deep, crippling social shame behind non-professional jobs. In the latter, stuff like magnet schools in inner cities exist for them, though you’ll note that the majority of kids at a Bronx Science or Stuy come from Asian cultures where even blue-collar parents would rather see kids go barefoot than uneducated, not too different from the working-class parents of many Jews at CCNY in 1920/1930s NYC.

    Anyway, if you are lazy or apathetic or have other overriding problems, a high IQ isn’t going to do much for you. It might even prove counterproductive in certain contexts, especially when you combine that with weaknesses elsewhere. IQ exists, and it does play an important role. But it isn’t everything. The other thing is that once you get over a certain point of mental power, for non-geniuses (and that’s the *overwhelming* majority of people), other factors become more important in determining success. Social skills, ability to network, conscientiousness, interests/values, etc.

    >Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that’s done is create more service workers with bachelor’s degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It’s not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I’m not against education. I’m against useless, stupid credentialism that pressures everybody go to university at 18 years old, regardless of ability, life goals, or maturity.

    • Agree: Dissident
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @nebulafox

    I'm veering this way too. An awful lot of perfectly successful and law-abiding blacks living good lives are not winning on Jeopardy any time soon but they have Christianity, and probably stable families and discipline. Intelligence by itself could get you a Ted Kaczynski or an Ezekiel Emmanuel. Instead of relying on education for everything society should push messages about discipline.

    , @Spangel
    @nebulafox

    What you say is indeed true, and if blacks had equal interest in stable family formation, drive to work and conscientiousness as Asians, blm would not exist. It wouldn’t have to. Blacks would have done well enough so that their iq deficit would be hardly worth remarking on. Just like the iq difference between the Thai and the Japanese isn’t a subject that merits general interest.

    , @128
    @nebulafox

    I will say that IQ is negatively correlated with conscientiousness, since smart people can cruise their way out of problems that will require hard work from less intelligent people, for example, if you are smart, you can figure out difficult problems faster, which leaves for time for playing video games instead of doing homework. I think a better correlation is a so called killer instinct, or sheer force of will, but that is not really related to intelligence.

    , @Anonymous
    @nebulafox


    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that’s done is create more service workers with bachelor’s degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It’s not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.
     
    I don’t understand what you are saying here. Why isn’t it tenable?

    Replies: @black sea

    , @anon
    @nebulafox


    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that’s done is create more service workers with bachelor’s degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It’s not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.
     
    Russian-American scientist Peter Turchin predicted in 2010 that there will be increasing unrest in the US for the next decade, peaking in 2020, due to what he called "overproduction of elites". How many of these white Antifa, BLM protesters are college grads with useless libart degrees stuck in dead end jobs in service, admin or academia? Probably most of them.

    College has become a credentialing cartel. It's time for a bust-up of this cartel. If Trump gets re-elected, I really hope he will put money into vocational ed instead of more funding for higher ed. Also we need to starve the beast and end the OPT program, which is the #1 draw colleges use to draw in more high fee paying foreign students to help fund the left wing causes on college campuses. The program also takes away important entry level jobs from our own grads leading to mass under employment for college grads. But these grads are so dumb and so brainwashed they actually fight for more immigration to further diminish their own economic well-being. I sometimes think Leftists are people who have evolved to the point where they've lost all capacity for self-preservation.

  93. @Jack D
    @128


    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective
     
    That's ridiculous - high IQ people tend to be successful and successful people don't give their kids up for adoption in the modern world. Not that many Asian kids in America are adopted to begin with - most are with their own parents. In the old days in America, sometimes high IQ coeds would get knocked up and not want to keep the baby (e.g. Steve Jobs' mom) but since the widespread availability of abortion and birth control, that never happens.

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    https://cty.jhu.edu/sebin/x/u/study_of_exceptional_talent.jpg

    They haven't changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven't changed the photo. I'm just waiting for the whole thing to be cancelled because they rarely if ever get any blacks (I'm guessing that of the tiny handful of "blacks" that have ever qualified, 0 are ADOS blacks).

    Anyway, from what I recall from the study, only a handful of adopted kids over the decades every qualified. Also the vast majority of qualifiers came from intact 2 parent homes.

    Americans may not want to adopt the most clearly damaged babies from Asian orphanages so there is some selection effect but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    Replies: @128, @128, @Calvin Hobbes, @Reg Cæsar, @Alice in Wonderland

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    They haven’t changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven’t changed the photo.

    They used to send out a newsletter with pictures of all the latest qualifiers. Maybe they still do. The last one I saw was maybe 5 years ago. Yeah, lots of Asians (probably mostly Asians), and I don’t remember any blacks.

    The Mathematical Association of America has contests for various grade levels, like AMC 8 (for 8th grade and below), AMC 10 (for 10th grade and below), and AMC 12 (for 12th grade and below), and several others (AIME, USAMO). They used to have a web page showing the pictures of all the students who got perfect scores on the AMC tests. No more, maybe partly because of me. I would post comments (elsewhere) with links to those pages, saying, “Look at all the Asians, and note that there aren’t any blacks”.

    You can still see lists of names here:

    https://amc-reg.maa.org/reports/generalreports.aspx

    Asian dominance of MATHCOUNTS (math contest for grades 6-8) is extreme:

    https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2019%20National%20Final%20Standings_0.pdf

    Those are the names of the students who scored in the top quarter.

    I went to the MATHCOUNTS national competition several times. I don’t think there were ever any blacks on any of the 50 state teams. One year at least there were blacks on the team from the Virgin Islands (and they didn’t score in the top quarter).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Calvin Hobbes

    Jaedon Whyte USAJMO winner 10th grade and below

    https://www.maa.org/news/top-high-school-math-olympians-announced-by-maa-american-mathematics-competitions-0

    https://twitter.com/Doral_Academy/status/834859079084494850?s=20

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel

  94. @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    > They do well in life because they are high IQ.

    They do well in life because they are conscientious and hard-working. IQ is positively correlated with that, for reasons both inherent and environmental. But correlation is just that: correlation. Life is probabilistic.

    What a high IQ does is you give you more processing power in your brain, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't automatically mean you'll be creative, have a great work ethic, will be resilient and persistent, or anything else. Since IQ does include the ability to predict outcomes, that makes it more likely that you'll figure out that working hard today means a better outcome tomorrow. But children are children, no matter how bright they are: they need to be trained. They will be heavily impacted by the environment around them. If you have parents that don't teach you this kind of stuff, you aren't as likely-which is not to say it is impossible-to gain those traits, regardless of your own IQ.

    (I should also note that having high IQ parents is not necessary to learning the value of hard work and conscientiousness. What a high IQ does is give you more options on what to do with that hard work and conscientiousness, and also makes it more likely you'll have parents who value that, too. Culture can sometimes override this, but the impact of that is pretty limited and self-selecting.)

    This leads to the nature vs. nurture question. High IQ kids tend to be born to high IQ parents, especially in this age of assortative mating. But you do get your outliers: you'll have high IQ parents produce mediocre children, or you'll have mediocre parents (sometimes you had a high IQ grandparent) produce brilliant children. In the case of the former, that's behind the dynamic of "EVERY KID MUST GO TO COLLEGE" in upper-middle class America, given the deep, crippling social shame behind non-professional jobs. In the latter, stuff like magnet schools in inner cities exist for them, though you'll note that the majority of kids at a Bronx Science or Stuy come from Asian cultures where even blue-collar parents would rather see kids go barefoot than uneducated, not too different from the working-class parents of many Jews at CCNY in 1920/1930s NYC.

    Anyway, if you are lazy or apathetic or have other overriding problems, a high IQ isn't going to do much for you. It might even prove counterproductive in certain contexts, especially when you combine that with weaknesses elsewhere. IQ exists, and it does play an important role. But it isn't everything. The other thing is that once you get over a certain point of mental power, for non-geniuses (and that's the *overwhelming* majority of people), other factors become more important in determining success. Social skills, ability to network, conscientiousness, interests/values, etc.

    >Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that's done is create more service workers with bachelor's degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It's not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I'm not against education. I'm against useless, stupid credentialism that pressures everybody go to university at 18 years old, regardless of ability, life goals, or maturity.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Spangel, @128, @Anonymous, @anon

    I’m veering this way too. An awful lot of perfectly successful and law-abiding blacks living good lives are not winning on Jeopardy any time soon but they have Christianity, and probably stable families and discipline. Intelligence by itself could get you a Ted Kaczynski or an Ezekiel Emmanuel. Instead of relying on education for everything society should push messages about discipline.

  95. @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    > They do well in life because they are high IQ.

    They do well in life because they are conscientious and hard-working. IQ is positively correlated with that, for reasons both inherent and environmental. But correlation is just that: correlation. Life is probabilistic.

    What a high IQ does is you give you more processing power in your brain, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't automatically mean you'll be creative, have a great work ethic, will be resilient and persistent, or anything else. Since IQ does include the ability to predict outcomes, that makes it more likely that you'll figure out that working hard today means a better outcome tomorrow. But children are children, no matter how bright they are: they need to be trained. They will be heavily impacted by the environment around them. If you have parents that don't teach you this kind of stuff, you aren't as likely-which is not to say it is impossible-to gain those traits, regardless of your own IQ.

    (I should also note that having high IQ parents is not necessary to learning the value of hard work and conscientiousness. What a high IQ does is give you more options on what to do with that hard work and conscientiousness, and also makes it more likely you'll have parents who value that, too. Culture can sometimes override this, but the impact of that is pretty limited and self-selecting.)

    This leads to the nature vs. nurture question. High IQ kids tend to be born to high IQ parents, especially in this age of assortative mating. But you do get your outliers: you'll have high IQ parents produce mediocre children, or you'll have mediocre parents (sometimes you had a high IQ grandparent) produce brilliant children. In the case of the former, that's behind the dynamic of "EVERY KID MUST GO TO COLLEGE" in upper-middle class America, given the deep, crippling social shame behind non-professional jobs. In the latter, stuff like magnet schools in inner cities exist for them, though you'll note that the majority of kids at a Bronx Science or Stuy come from Asian cultures where even blue-collar parents would rather see kids go barefoot than uneducated, not too different from the working-class parents of many Jews at CCNY in 1920/1930s NYC.

    Anyway, if you are lazy or apathetic or have other overriding problems, a high IQ isn't going to do much for you. It might even prove counterproductive in certain contexts, especially when you combine that with weaknesses elsewhere. IQ exists, and it does play an important role. But it isn't everything. The other thing is that once you get over a certain point of mental power, for non-geniuses (and that's the *overwhelming* majority of people), other factors become more important in determining success. Social skills, ability to network, conscientiousness, interests/values, etc.

    >Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that's done is create more service workers with bachelor's degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It's not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I'm not against education. I'm against useless, stupid credentialism that pressures everybody go to university at 18 years old, regardless of ability, life goals, or maturity.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Spangel, @128, @Anonymous, @anon

    What you say is indeed true, and if blacks had equal interest in stable family formation, drive to work and conscientiousness as Asians, blm would not exist. It wouldn’t have to. Blacks would have done well enough so that their iq deficit would be hardly worth remarking on. Just like the iq difference between the Thai and the Japanese isn’t a subject that merits general interest.

  96. @Jack D
    @Spangel

    Hell, we don't even understand white endogamous groups in America. It's pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash) and that their mean IQs differ but they all get lumped under "white". The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    In the future, they will be one group - the secular Jew-WASPs - because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes. The E. Asians will also get mixed in. The S. Asians will take another generation or two before they totally interbreed with the other American IQ elites.

    Replies: @Spangel, @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @Polistra, @Bardon Kaldian

    In the future, they will be one group – the secular Jew-WASPs – because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes.

    That’s an interesting point. America does seem to be developing a biologically endogamous brahmin caste at a fairly rapid rate. It’s sort of a synthesis of The Big Sort/Coming Apart/Idiocracy. How many generations of elite endogamy would it take to form a biological distinct caste?

  97. Here’s something to observe, re: this topic.

    What societies/nations appear to emphasize testing for admission to higher education the most?

    Asian, particularly China and Japan (now Korea.)

    This has been going on for centuries there. Other places now emphasize this too (India, but rampant cheating) but not to the extreme of north Asia. Even Germany is less rigid (so I hear).

    Which of these countries now leads the US in intellectual achievement? Provides high quality professionals who sometimes immigrate to the US (legally)?

    So while observant Americans worry about our relative decline, the Neo Marxist ruling class wants to abolish all testing because it makes poorly performing people look bad. And hinders their advancement. So high school drug dealing dropouts can’t operate on your brain, or fly airliners.

    Tragedy. You can read all about it in the variety of Woke print media. Testing makes Them better, but Us worse off. Such a mystery.

  98. OT:
    With their embrace of Trump, NYC Orthodox Jews have finally lost their social protections and decades of pent up anger and hate from their neighbours can now be expressed with no backlash from the media or establishment.

  99. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    In “organic synthesis” as it’s called, which means inventing new drugs, the “bench work“ (= the painstaking grinding-out) is done by Phds in China. Overseeing them, providing the creativity, thinking outside the box, are the Caucasian PhD‘s at American drug companies. I don’t know about other stem fields, but that’s how it works in Org Syn, or at least it used to.

  100. @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    > They do well in life because they are high IQ.

    They do well in life because they are conscientious and hard-working. IQ is positively correlated with that, for reasons both inherent and environmental. But correlation is just that: correlation. Life is probabilistic.

    What a high IQ does is you give you more processing power in your brain, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't automatically mean you'll be creative, have a great work ethic, will be resilient and persistent, or anything else. Since IQ does include the ability to predict outcomes, that makes it more likely that you'll figure out that working hard today means a better outcome tomorrow. But children are children, no matter how bright they are: they need to be trained. They will be heavily impacted by the environment around them. If you have parents that don't teach you this kind of stuff, you aren't as likely-which is not to say it is impossible-to gain those traits, regardless of your own IQ.

    (I should also note that having high IQ parents is not necessary to learning the value of hard work and conscientiousness. What a high IQ does is give you more options on what to do with that hard work and conscientiousness, and also makes it more likely you'll have parents who value that, too. Culture can sometimes override this, but the impact of that is pretty limited and self-selecting.)

    This leads to the nature vs. nurture question. High IQ kids tend to be born to high IQ parents, especially in this age of assortative mating. But you do get your outliers: you'll have high IQ parents produce mediocre children, or you'll have mediocre parents (sometimes you had a high IQ grandparent) produce brilliant children. In the case of the former, that's behind the dynamic of "EVERY KID MUST GO TO COLLEGE" in upper-middle class America, given the deep, crippling social shame behind non-professional jobs. In the latter, stuff like magnet schools in inner cities exist for them, though you'll note that the majority of kids at a Bronx Science or Stuy come from Asian cultures where even blue-collar parents would rather see kids go barefoot than uneducated, not too different from the working-class parents of many Jews at CCNY in 1920/1930s NYC.

    Anyway, if you are lazy or apathetic or have other overriding problems, a high IQ isn't going to do much for you. It might even prove counterproductive in certain contexts, especially when you combine that with weaknesses elsewhere. IQ exists, and it does play an important role. But it isn't everything. The other thing is that once you get over a certain point of mental power, for non-geniuses (and that's the *overwhelming* majority of people), other factors become more important in determining success. Social skills, ability to network, conscientiousness, interests/values, etc.

    >Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that's done is create more service workers with bachelor's degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It's not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I'm not against education. I'm against useless, stupid credentialism that pressures everybody go to university at 18 years old, regardless of ability, life goals, or maturity.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Spangel, @128, @Anonymous, @anon

    I will say that IQ is negatively correlated with conscientiousness, since smart people can cruise their way out of problems that will require hard work from less intelligent people, for example, if you are smart, you can figure out difficult problems faster, which leaves for time for playing video games instead of doing homework. I think a better correlation is a so called killer instinct, or sheer force of will, but that is not really related to intelligence.

  101. Someone in the other thread is crowing that Steve should review the stupid Borat movie. What I want to see is a review of THIS:

    https://www.mlb.com/video/rays-crazy-game-4-walk-off

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @HammerJack

    Good game, although the last play looked like a bunch of 10 year olds playing baseball: the Dodgers made 2 fielding miscues and the Rays' winning runner flat out fell down while heading for home, then got up but dove too soon and barely ground to a halt with his fingers touching home plate. If the Dodger catcher had been able to find the ball, he would have been tagged out.

  102. @Old and Grumpy
    I would like to see the results of a standardized test that is given on a random day. That is not to say Asians won't dominated. But shouldn't smarts be gauged on given brain power rather than paid preparation and repeat test taking? Back in my day of taking the SAT, most kids took it at least twice if not three times. Never seemed right, and that was before the inception of preparation classes.

    Replies: @Kaz

    Back in my day of taking the SAT, most kids took it at least twice if not three times. Never seemed right, and that was before the inception of preparation classes.

    This is a good thing. Asian countries have punishing standardized testing systems where your whole life is decided by one stupid test and retaking is not an option.

    Being able to improve on the SAT/ACT by taking it multiple times is a feature, not a bug.

  103. @Guy De Champlagne
    @John Milton’s Ghost

    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they've secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they're supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Kaz, @AnotherDad

    I would argue grades are often worthless based on busy work and cajoling teachers..

  104. Anonymous[262] • Disclaimer says:

    What exactly is the point of this article being posted on this site?

    It seems to be an effort to disprove ‘systematic raciss’. Is there anyone who frequents this site, who is Not aware of this already?

    Maybe there’s an element of ‘ look at me write about the smart Asians, I’m not raciss’!

    Or maybe it’s just Asiaphilia…

    • Agree: Alden
  105. With their embrace of Trump, NYC Orthodox Jews have finally lost their social protections and decades of pent up anger and hate from their neighbours can now be expressed with no backlash from the media or establishment.

    Nah, they never had much in the way of social protections in the first place. Nor do they really have decades of pent up anger and hate from their neighbors in general. The only place that’s even partly true is Williamsburg, where they are at loggerheads with Blacks and Hispanics over housing set asides. A little on and off tension in Crown Heights maybe, otherwise not much hatred to speak of. Sad for you I’m sure, but what can you do? The masses don’t realize the extent of the perfidy of the Jews. Further education is called for; where is Julius Streicher when you need him?

    • Replies: @SFG
    @kaganovitch

    Left-wing Jews in academia and media have been behind a lot of the leftward drift of the country over the past 50 years, though I'd say they basically hooked up with the left half of the old WASP elite (figuratively, then literally) and supercharged it. America always had its Unitarians...and after all plenty of European countries had practically no Jews after WW2 and drifted left as well.

    The ones that didn't, ironically, were reacting against Communism.

    These guys had nothing to do with that.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Polistra

  106. @Guy De Champlagne
    @bomag

    B) Does sorting by SAT score leave us with people able to organize and lead? High SAT scorers are not necessarily adept at holding things together.

    No you don't get it. Whites deserve to have a higher standard of living than blacks because they're better at college freshman level math and english courses and for that reason only. So in order to be principled and consistent, asians have to deserve to be better off than whites (since they're even better at them). What part of that doesn't make sense? You can't possibly be suggesting that we try to come up with a sensible way to determine who deserves to be better off, such as their ability to actually generate well being for themselves and others. It has to be based on Freshman level college courses. Urgh!

    Replies: @Jack D, @TWS

    What does deserve have to do with it?

  107. @kaganovitch
    With their embrace of Trump, NYC Orthodox Jews have finally lost their social protections and decades of pent up anger and hate from their neighbours can now be expressed with no backlash from the media or establishment.

    Nah, they never had much in the way of social protections in the first place. Nor do they really have decades of pent up anger and hate from their neighbors in general. The only place that's even partly true is Williamsburg, where they are at loggerheads with Blacks and Hispanics over housing set asides. A little on and off tension in Crown Heights maybe, otherwise not much hatred to speak of. Sad for you I'm sure, but what can you do? The masses don't realize the extent of the perfidy of the Jews. Further education is called for; where is Julius Streicher when you need him?

    Replies: @SFG

    Left-wing Jews in academia and media have been behind a lot of the leftward drift of the country over the past 50 years, though I’d say they basically hooked up with the left half of the old WASP elite (figuratively, then literally) and supercharged it. America always had its Unitarians…and after all plenty of European countries had practically no Jews after WW2 and drifted left as well.

    The ones that didn’t, ironically, were reacting against Communism.

    These guys had nothing to do with that.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @SFG

    These guys had nothing to do with that.

    I know, these are my homies. I was (or trying to be, I guess) being sarcastic.

    , @Polistra
    @SFG


    America always had its Unitarians
     
    Sorry to interrupt your kosher konklave, but are you really saying that Unitarians ran the major media? Wall Street? Academe? Hollywood? Anything?
  108. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    From a quick look at Murray’s paper, he appears to be arguing:

    Fact#1: Rather than showing the steadily rising “Flynn Effect” evident in the rest of the world, the measured average IQ in South Korea and Japan have jumped up and down over time between 105-115, and are currently sitting at the low end of that range.

    Fact#2: Some studies of Asian children adopted by Americans show higher than expected IQs which are nearer the 115 high-water mark.

    Therefore:

    Conclusion #1. The variance in Asian IQ between 105-115 must be due to some mysterious “environmental” impact.

    Conclusion #2. The American “environment” — unlike the current Asian environment — has the secret sauce that allows the Asian IQs to rise to their highest possible level.

    Conclusion #3 (Admittedly speculation). This secret sauce may be taking it easy and just not studying too hard, like they supposedly do now (but not in the past!), in Asia.

    I have to admit the data on varying (and recently declining) Asian IQ scores is something I had never heard of and seems pretty puzzling. But Murray’s speculative extrapolation from this data is weak.

    A cynic might even suggest that Murray is trying to get into the good graces of the good people by deliberately crafting a narrative that: (1) emphasizes “environmental” effects on IQ; (2) highlights the superiority of a non-white group; and (3) extolls the benefits of liberal “diversity-is-our-strength” American culture.

    • Replies: @Henry Canaday
    @Hypnotoad666

    Murray did not write the paper, he just referred to it on his blog.

    Replies: @128

  109. People aren’t pooping on the streets because they unlearned basic hygiene. Rather, the incidents reflect shameful levels of inequality in the city

    • Replies: @Donald A Thomson
    @David 'The Diversity Mastermind' Lammey

    If you shut the public lavatories, the homeless shit in the streets.

    The closing of the public lavatories in the Californian cities was even reported in the US MSM.

    Can you think of any reason for shutting the public toilets that didn't show a desire to drive out the homeless by making their living conditions unbearable? [email protected]

  110. @SFG
    @kaganovitch

    Left-wing Jews in academia and media have been behind a lot of the leftward drift of the country over the past 50 years, though I'd say they basically hooked up with the left half of the old WASP elite (figuratively, then literally) and supercharged it. America always had its Unitarians...and after all plenty of European countries had practically no Jews after WW2 and drifted left as well.

    The ones that didn't, ironically, were reacting against Communism.

    These guys had nothing to do with that.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Polistra

    These guys had nothing to do with that.

    I know, these are my homies. I was (or trying to be, I guess) being sarcastic.

  111. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @International Jew

    It's almost as though multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious societies don't work very well.

    Replies: @Wilkey

    It’s almost as though multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious societies don’t work very well.

    They might work well, if people weren’t so obsessed with how they’re doing compared to other racial groups and more concerned with improving their own lot in life.

    They don’t work well because there are always demagogues around – in our case, the Democratic Party – to tell them to hate people who are more successful and more law abiding than themselves.

    Whites don’t really need to have blacks around, but blacks most certainly need whites and Asians around to provide the services they expect in the modern world. They’re angry at their dependence on us, but not angry enough to get the education they need so that they don’t require us anymore. Instead they tell themselves fantasies about racism keeping them down.

    The end result of all this George Floyd insanity is that 10-20 years from now blacks will be doing far worse educationally compared to whites than they are now.

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @Wilkey


    They don’t work well because there are always demagogues around – in our case, the Democratic Party – to tell them to hate people who are more successful and more law abiding than themselves.
     
    If that were the whole story, the 'demagogues' would be telling them to hate Asians too. Only virulent anti-white racist hatred explains it, and it's a 'specialty' of our Ruling Class.
  112. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @Buffalo Joe

    You're still trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Separation based on tribe is the answer - always was the answer - whether it makes Whites feel icky or not.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Buffalo Joe

    Citi, well you can fit a round peg in a square hole if the diameter of the peg is less than the dimension of the square. Thing is, you can get these kids into the school if you want to but will they succeed, which is my point. Let them in, don’t dumb down and see what happens. Thank you for your reply.

  113. @Jack D
    @Spangel

    Hell, we don't even understand white endogamous groups in America. It's pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash) and that their mean IQs differ but they all get lumped under "white". The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    In the future, they will be one group - the secular Jew-WASPs - because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes. The E. Asians will also get mixed in. The S. Asians will take another generation or two before they totally interbreed with the other American IQ elites.

    Replies: @Spangel, @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @Polistra, @Bardon Kaldian

    The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    If you believe that, or expect anyone here to, you are a clown.

  114. @Reg Cæsar
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    Separation based on tribe is the answer – always was the answer...
     
    Then we were screwed from the very beginning.

    ...whether it makes Whites feel icky or not.

     

    Dirty work in the hot sun made whites feel icky. And still does. So we pollute our territory to avoid it. That's what it is--pollution. Ask any Indian.

    I'm just glad my ancestors chose the frigid mountains and forests, where it's white to this day. Literally-- it snowed this week.

    Replies: @Polistra

    I’m just glad my ancestors chose the frigid mountains and forests, where it’s white to this day. Literally– it snowed this week.

    No one in your extended family has ever been capable of relocating?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Polistra


    No one in your extended family has ever been capable of relocating?

     

    Some to Florida. But I want my great-grandchildren to have IQs, too, so I'm staying up here with the evolutionary pressure my own ancestors enjoyed, and passed on to us.
  115. @SFG
    @kaganovitch

    Left-wing Jews in academia and media have been behind a lot of the leftward drift of the country over the past 50 years, though I'd say they basically hooked up with the left half of the old WASP elite (figuratively, then literally) and supercharged it. America always had its Unitarians...and after all plenty of European countries had practically no Jews after WW2 and drifted left as well.

    The ones that didn't, ironically, were reacting against Communism.

    These guys had nothing to do with that.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Polistra

    America always had its Unitarians

    Sorry to interrupt your kosher konklave, but are you really saying that Unitarians ran the major media? Wall Street? Academe? Hollywood? Anything?

  116. @Wilkey
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    It’s almost as though multiracial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious societies don’t work very well.
     
    They might work well, if people weren't so obsessed with how they're doing compared to other racial groups and more concerned with improving their own lot in life.

    They don't work well because there are always demagogues around - in our case, the Democratic Party - to tell them to hate people who are more successful and more law abiding than themselves.

    Whites don't really need to have blacks around, but blacks most certainly need whites and Asians around to provide the services they expect in the modern world. They're angry at their dependence on us, but not angry enough to get the education they need so that they don't require us anymore. Instead they tell themselves fantasies about racism keeping them down.

    The end result of all this George Floyd insanity is that 10-20 years from now blacks will be doing far worse educationally compared to whites than they are now.

    Replies: @HammerJack

    They don’t work well because there are always demagogues around – in our case, the Democratic Party – to tell them to hate people who are more successful and more law abiding than themselves.

    If that were the whole story, the ‘demagogues’ would be telling them to hate Asians too. Only virulent anti-white racist hatred explains it, and it’s a ‘specialty’ of our Ruling Class.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
  117. OT : I saw this video by this English Cardiologist . The initial subject was about his objections to how a certain group has basically seized control of access to medical research papers . Here’s the video :

    If you watch it all the way through he mentions an experience he had on an airplane and a device he used : the AliveCor KardiaMobile 6L , a six lead EKG that is really neat . For me it’s just a toy and I need a new phone to download the app . Anyway some of you might get a kick out of it and the device is only $147 and change , the app is free . Check it out .

  118. That American Indian scores are in free-fall even with the same numbers taking the test is disturbing. It’s not like American Indians were doing so great before; one shudders to think what’s going on the reservations now.

  119. I hired many high-tech electronics and software engineers, of many different ethnicities, until I retired a few years ago. I found that Asians were often brilliant, but generally poor leaders and/or driving forces in the workplace. I would hire them preferentially if I wanted a super-achieving team, but hardly at all if I needed a team leader.

    Anecdotal-sure! But I am confident it reflected reality. I had little or no experience with blacks or hispanics in Canada, so I have no opinions there. And I never once, in more than 50 years, Encountered a native North-American Engineer or technologist.

  120. IIRC, our host Ron Unz has written about the precipitous decline in aptitude among Jewish college applicants with no corresponding decline in their acceptance rates at competitive colleges. If we do away with the SAT/ACT completely because it’s a tool of oppression against Black and brown bodies, what will the Jew-to-gentile ratio start to look like at the Ivies?

    (Apologies to any Black bodies who are offended that I dared to capitalize another group’s name — I will livestream my seppuku as penance.)

  121. @HammerJack
    Someone in the other thread is crowing that Steve should review the stupid Borat movie. What I want to see is a review of THIS:


    https://www.mlb.com/video/rays-crazy-game-4-walk-off

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Good game, although the last play looked like a bunch of 10 year olds playing baseball: the Dodgers made 2 fielding miscues and the Rays’ winning runner flat out fell down while heading for home, then got up but dove too soon and barely ground to a halt with his fingers touching home plate. If the Dodger catcher had been able to find the ball, he would have been tagged out.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
  122. @Anonymous
    A good macro global test for all peoples of the world is SEAFARING.

    It's a challenge that is distributed relatively equally across the planet excepting landlocked peoples of course.

    And so we can examine the Asian contributions and influence on the subject.

    Sorry. Asians lag in the seafaring endeavor. All aspects of it. Not saying they're absolutely dead in the water but they sorely lag.

    The entire history of SEAFARING is a massive global problem solving continuum. And we know who has led the way. We know who has had the most influence by far.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Eagle Eye, @Rahan

    People from southeast Asia got to Madagascar and Hawaii by sea.

    • Replies: @Alice in Wonderland
    @Steve Sailer


    The recent declines aren’t as sharp as on the SAT, where the test was redone a couple of years ago, which messed up everybody except Asians.
     
    a quibble on that point

    Asians had the sharpest drop of any group after it was redone. I would argue that low point is their "real" average score because it was less affected by preparation than the previous or subsequent version. Every Asian who was employed in test prep likely took that test to see what was on it and came back with the actual test items to use to prepare students for the new test. So, scores bounced back quickly, but the drop was very sharp.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  123. @Buffalo Joe
    I favor "test in" schools. Exceptional ability should be treated as a precious resource. People care more about snail darters and barn owls than kids denied an opportunity to succeed. Have the black scholars formulate a test based on black American culture. This test will be for blacks only and the top ten percent get a place in the criteria schools. Once in, they are on their own. No changes to the curriculum, sink or swim.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country, @Hannah Katz, @MBlanc46

    That could really be interesting, Joe. Unfortunately, it will never happen.

  124. @SFG
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    I'm not your enemy, but I'll forward your complaints to the NYT editorial board.

    I'm sure they'll pay attention to me.

    Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country

    The typical American soldier in WWII probably had more in common with the average German or Japanese soldier than they did with their own leaders.

    So what. They were still on opposite sides.

    Welcome to the multi-everything country that your leaders pushed so hard to create, and my leaders were so stupid to follow.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    "The typical American soldier in WWII probably had more in common with the average German or Japanese soldier than they did with their own leaders."

    That's not even remotely accurate.

    , @Dissident
    @Citizen of a Silly Country


    Welcome to the multi-everything country that your leaders pushed so hard to create, and my leaders were so stupid to follow.
     
    Who are SFG's "leaders"?
  125. @Polistra
    @Reg Cæsar


    I’m just glad my ancestors chose the frigid mountains and forests, where it’s white to this day. Literally– it snowed this week.
     
    No one in your extended family has ever been capable of relocating?

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    No one in your extended family has ever been capable of relocating?

    Some to Florida. But I want my great-grandchildren to have IQs, too, so I’m staying up here with the evolutionary pressure my own ancestors enjoyed, and passed on to us.

  126. @Jack D
    @128


    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective
     
    That's ridiculous - high IQ people tend to be successful and successful people don't give their kids up for adoption in the modern world. Not that many Asian kids in America are adopted to begin with - most are with their own parents. In the old days in America, sometimes high IQ coeds would get knocked up and not want to keep the baby (e.g. Steve Jobs' mom) but since the widespread availability of abortion and birth control, that never happens.

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    https://cty.jhu.edu/sebin/x/u/study_of_exceptional_talent.jpg

    They haven't changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven't changed the photo. I'm just waiting for the whole thing to be cancelled because they rarely if ever get any blacks (I'm guessing that of the tiny handful of "blacks" that have ever qualified, 0 are ADOS blacks).

    Anyway, from what I recall from the study, only a handful of adopted kids over the decades every qualified. Also the vast majority of qualifiers came from intact 2 parent homes.

    Americans may not want to adopt the most clearly damaged babies from Asian orphanages so there is some selection effect but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    Replies: @128, @128, @Calvin Hobbes, @Reg Cæsar, @Alice in Wonderland

    …but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    You sure of that? China isn’t the most meritocratic place. There is a lot of hidden talent wasting away in decrepit villages.

    Also, the one-child policy was directed toward urban professionals. The second child of such a couple could very well end up in a basket on the side of the road.

    A college classmate and her husband, both of whom went to grad school, adopted a roadside Chinese girl who, I’m told, is even smarter than her adoptive parents. Who were in the top 1% on the ACT.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Reg Cæsar

    I remember meeting a Chinese peasant kid who was as smart as a whip. The whole village was rooting for him, which is more than you can say about the typical American suburban high school. There are a lot of dumb Chinese peasants, but they all value intellectual achievement.

    BTW, Chinese peasants are some of the best people on earth. Humble, generous, strong, hardworking and stoic. You can't find much better human material to work with. Your typical UMC American is moral and physical scum in comparison.

    If I had a choice of whether to dine in a hovel in Hebei or a mcmansion in suburban DC I'd take the rancid mutton and sorghum liquor over the California wine and arugula without a second thought.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jack D

  127. @Anonymous
    OT: Tampax Science Team finally acknowledges that some men have monthly periods too!

    Oddly, they’ve also rightly opened themselves to corporate bigotry claims, since they’ve acknowledged the need, yet haven’t made available "Tampax for Men," or anything if the sort.

    Men are bleeding, Tampax!

    MEN ARE BLEEDING!!!

    How long must we bleed, Tampax?!

    HOW LONG MUST WE BLEED ALONE?!!!

    https://twitter.com/Tampax/status/1305952342504767491?s=20

    Replies: @Gary in Gramercy

    Alice Cooper lied to me? Next thing you’ll be telling me Iggy doesn’t want to be my dog anymore.

  128. Eagle Eye says:
    @Anonymous
    A good macro global test for all peoples of the world is SEAFARING.

    It's a challenge that is distributed relatively equally across the planet excepting landlocked peoples of course.

    And so we can examine the Asian contributions and influence on the subject.

    Sorry. Asians lag in the seafaring endeavor. All aspects of it. Not saying they're absolutely dead in the water but they sorely lag.

    The entire history of SEAFARING is a massive global problem solving continuum. And we know who has led the way. We know who has had the most influence by far.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Eagle Eye, @Rahan

    People from southeast Asia got to Madagascar and Hawaii by sea.

    The Polynesians did not merely randomly travel over vast distances, but they apparently had very serious navigation skills enabling them to return to their point of departure. Traveling East, Polynesians settled Easter Island.

    In fact, there can be no doubt that Polynesians landed in Africa and South America, but so far, little direct evidence of such visits has been publicized. (Note that such evidence would not be welcomed by most “scholars” in the field and may have been hushed up.)

    Unlike Madagascar and Hawaii which had been uninhabited before the arrival of Polynesian settlers, South America already had Amerind populations, so any genetic traces of occasional Polynesian visits would have become diluted and may have disappeared entirely.

  129. GPA SAT ACT and most of the endless activities White kids participate in are irrelevant to college admissions

    The only thing that matters for White’s admissions is to check the black or Hispanic box depending on the surname.

    Race is all that matters. Why White men, most of whom claim, claim to be married with children and grandchildren are worried about Asians is beyond me.

  130. @Thulean Friend
    ACT/SAT will both be abolished. In their stead, there will be a SES-adjusted test with adversity scores etc or simply no test at all. This will be required to do the necessary "racial balancing".

    There won't be any Asian uprising. Native-born Asians are some of the strongest supporters of affirmative action. US intellectuals like Michael Sandel are now publishing unhinged screeds against meritocracy. Dark times ahead for America.

    Replies: @Alden

    1996 election California had anti affirmative action Proposition 209 on the ballot. Whites voted overwhelmingly for Prop 208. Asians of all ethnicities and every SES voted against Prop 209.

    That was 24 years ago. Asians have not changed.

    Asians benefit enormously from non college admissions affirmative action. Asians get affirmative action business loans tax deductions government contracts and many business loans etc from the plethora of government programs for non White businesses. Government. Including airport contracts is as much No Whites Need Apply as government jobs.

    That’s why Asians vote for affirmative action and the anti White Democrat party.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Alden

    True enough. Asians long ago got used to being exempt from the AA downside while benefiting from the minority set-asides. But how long can that last? Despite all the talk of white privilege, whites have already been squeezed dry. Except maybe for the professional class, which is like 90% democrat in the cities. When they're done away with, it's going to be Conan the Barbarian time here, which sucks, but hey you get what you ask for. I hope the orientals like paying protection money to psychos with conspicuous tattoos and raging PTSD, because that's already happening in Seattle.

  131. East Asian (this does not apply to South Asians) tend to have very strong quantitative skills and ability to memorize quantitative detail, but are noticeably weaker on creativity and depth of understanding. This has an impact on their contribution at the research and technology frontier.

  132. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jack D


    ...but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.
     
    You sure of that? China isn't the most meritocratic place. There is a lot of hidden talent wasting away in decrepit villages.

    Also, the one-child policy was directed toward urban professionals. The second child of such a couple could very well end up in a basket on the side of the road.

    A college classmate and her husband, both of whom went to grad school, adopted a roadside Chinese girl who, I'm told, is even smarter than her adoptive parents. Who were in the top 1% on the ACT.

    Replies: @Bill P

    I remember meeting a Chinese peasant kid who was as smart as a whip. The whole village was rooting for him, which is more than you can say about the typical American suburban high school. There are a lot of dumb Chinese peasants, but they all value intellectual achievement.

    BTW, Chinese peasants are some of the best people on earth. Humble, generous, strong, hardworking and stoic. You can’t find much better human material to work with. Your typical UMC American is moral and physical scum in comparison.

    If I had a choice of whether to dine in a hovel in Hebei or a mcmansion in suburban DC I’d take the rancid mutton and sorghum liquor over the California wine and arugula without a second thought.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Bill P


    If I had a choice of whether to dine in a hovel in Hebei or a mcmansion in suburban DC I’d take the rancid mutton and sorghum liquor over the California wine and arugula without a second thought.

     

    I would highly recommend a second thought. And third. At least avoid the fermented pasta:


    Chinese family of nine dies after eating toxic noodles

    , @Jack D
    @Bill P

    Honestly, baijiu is some pretty nasty stuff. It tastes like kerosene to me. I like lamb better than arugula (but if I am going to the trouble of traveling to the countryside, couldn't they at least slaughter it fresh for me, preferably a young one?) and don't mind eating in a (clean but humble) hovel but I would take a nice Napa Valley cab over Red Star any day of the week. I think it's a real acquired tasted and I haven't acquired it.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Bill P

  133. @Alden
    @Thulean Friend

    1996 election California had anti affirmative action Proposition 209 on the ballot. Whites voted overwhelmingly for Prop 208. Asians of all ethnicities and every SES voted against Prop 209.

    That was 24 years ago. Asians have not changed.

    Asians benefit enormously from non college admissions affirmative action. Asians get affirmative action business loans tax deductions government contracts and many business loans etc from the plethora of government programs for non White businesses. Government. Including airport contracts is as much No Whites Need Apply as government jobs.

    That’s why Asians vote for affirmative action and the anti White Democrat party.

    Replies: @Bill P

    True enough. Asians long ago got used to being exempt from the AA downside while benefiting from the minority set-asides. But how long can that last? Despite all the talk of white privilege, whites have already been squeezed dry. Except maybe for the professional class, which is like 90% democrat in the cities. When they’re done away with, it’s going to be Conan the Barbarian time here, which sucks, but hey you get what you ask for. I hope the orientals like paying protection money to psychos with conspicuous tattoos and raging PTSD, because that’s already happening in Seattle.

  134. Anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    > They do well in life because they are high IQ.

    They do well in life because they are conscientious and hard-working. IQ is positively correlated with that, for reasons both inherent and environmental. But correlation is just that: correlation. Life is probabilistic.

    What a high IQ does is you give you more processing power in your brain, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't automatically mean you'll be creative, have a great work ethic, will be resilient and persistent, or anything else. Since IQ does include the ability to predict outcomes, that makes it more likely that you'll figure out that working hard today means a better outcome tomorrow. But children are children, no matter how bright they are: they need to be trained. They will be heavily impacted by the environment around them. If you have parents that don't teach you this kind of stuff, you aren't as likely-which is not to say it is impossible-to gain those traits, regardless of your own IQ.

    (I should also note that having high IQ parents is not necessary to learning the value of hard work and conscientiousness. What a high IQ does is give you more options on what to do with that hard work and conscientiousness, and also makes it more likely you'll have parents who value that, too. Culture can sometimes override this, but the impact of that is pretty limited and self-selecting.)

    This leads to the nature vs. nurture question. High IQ kids tend to be born to high IQ parents, especially in this age of assortative mating. But you do get your outliers: you'll have high IQ parents produce mediocre children, or you'll have mediocre parents (sometimes you had a high IQ grandparent) produce brilliant children. In the case of the former, that's behind the dynamic of "EVERY KID MUST GO TO COLLEGE" in upper-middle class America, given the deep, crippling social shame behind non-professional jobs. In the latter, stuff like magnet schools in inner cities exist for them, though you'll note that the majority of kids at a Bronx Science or Stuy come from Asian cultures where even blue-collar parents would rather see kids go barefoot than uneducated, not too different from the working-class parents of many Jews at CCNY in 1920/1930s NYC.

    Anyway, if you are lazy or apathetic or have other overriding problems, a high IQ isn't going to do much for you. It might even prove counterproductive in certain contexts, especially when you combine that with weaknesses elsewhere. IQ exists, and it does play an important role. But it isn't everything. The other thing is that once you get over a certain point of mental power, for non-geniuses (and that's the *overwhelming* majority of people), other factors become more important in determining success. Social skills, ability to network, conscientiousness, interests/values, etc.

    >Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that's done is create more service workers with bachelor's degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It's not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I'm not against education. I'm against useless, stupid credentialism that pressures everybody go to university at 18 years old, regardless of ability, life goals, or maturity.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Spangel, @128, @Anonymous, @anon

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that’s done is create more service workers with bachelor’s degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It’s not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I don’t understand what you are saying here. Why isn’t it tenable?

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Anonymous

    If I could respond, I think nebulafox means it is not tenable because it entails an enormous waste of time and resources, creates unrealistic expectations of what most people's "careers" can be like, and stymies the formation of families and the production of sufficient numbers of children to keep the society and culture in tact.

  135. A few years back when the latest PISA(2018) scores were working there way through social media in New Zealand, I decided to peruse the data for the Reading category(not sure why), specifically the number of hrs of learning per week(hmm, outside of school hrs included?). The hardcore NE Asian countries(China/Beijing, Singapore) literally spent an extra 20%-30% more time learning than say my lazy ilk(white kiwi/NZ), all for a modest .25 Standard Deviation better PISA score. This dedicated approach extrapolated over a 10 year learning cycle of 5-15 years is akin to doing an extra 2 to 3 years of schooling(like comparing 15 year old to 17/18 year olds?), for seemingly such marginal returns to the point seems perhaps worthless, especially given the low happiness measures of such countries relative to New Zealand.

    Here’s a photoshop excerpt showing number of hrs of learning(reading):

    Note, pink bubble shows the performance of white and yellow hued kiwis which is somewhat above the lower aggregate New Zealand score which includes significant lower scoring Maori/Polynesian component.

    Can’t say I really thought about it too deeply other than to think that, that sort sacrifice seemed to imply the threat of Asian intellectual domination is a somewhat inflated metric, as whites probably just spend that extra 2-3 years free time pursuing more organic interests/learning beyond some conformist utilitarian dogma of success, which perhaps actually makes society both qualitatively and quantitatively better in an actual dynamical sense. Even more so when consider domain specific aspects of learning like mathematical reasoning which are so amenable to advances in technology/AI, that become easier and easier to personally delegate all that numerical nonsense to some algorithm or app that can do it all a billion times faster flawlessly…

  136. @Anonymous
    @nebulafox


    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that’s done is create more service workers with bachelor’s degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It’s not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.
     
    I don’t understand what you are saying here. Why isn’t it tenable?

    Replies: @black sea

    If I could respond, I think nebulafox means it is not tenable because it entails an enormous waste of time and resources, creates unrealistic expectations of what most people’s “careers” can be like, and stymies the formation of families and the production of sufficient numbers of children to keep the society and culture in tact.

  137. @Rob
    @Henry Canaday

    This could be really bad, actually. Will whites accept being virtually locked out of high IQ roles? Gentiles might, but would Jews? It would certainly mean a closer relationship with China. We could take lots of Korean immigrants, but as the US declines accelerates, and China’s per capital output equals ours, and then keeps growing faster than ours, how many Koreans will want to come? American born Chinese are likely to feel more drawn towards the Chinese than would say, Irish Americans.

    Being wealthier per capital would put a wet blanket on US cultural hegemony. Chinese action movies would have stunts that put ours to shame, as they could get larger investments in China than American ones can. Conservative whites will seriously lose their shit the first time Chinese opposition shuts down a wargasm in the mideast. All Americans will be in for a reckoning and China far surpasses us on material and quality of life living standards. The saddest thing? It won’t even shut down illegal immigration, Poor Mexicans and Salvadorans will still live better here than at home, not to mention that the US economy will start specialize in low wage industries. The management consulting types might think we are going to specialize in high IQ industries, too. China will have a lock on businesses that require a 145 IQ, simply because there is a much larger number of Chinese above that, and those jobs will benefit from a 160 IQ, and those are far more common in a 115 mean IQ China than here. Plus, Chinese consultants will understand the business and market better than Americans.

    There is always the hope that Chins will show less imperialism than the west did, and the hope that China will be less interested in the internal workings of other societies. I know a lot of people here have swallowed the yellow pill, and think China will save us as the US collapses under the weight of diversity. They may only be interested in securing resource flows, but even that will likely come with political restrictions. But Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, and the MSM already restrict our political opinions. What does it matter if the censors are Chinese? The prison sentences would matter to individual dissents imorisoned, but the effect on the rest of us would be the mere chilling of speech that we already have.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “Poor Mexicans and Salvadorans will still live better here than at home, not to mention that the US economy will start specialize in low wage industries.”

    Quite ironic really, US elites shifted production to low-wage countries, perhaps one day the US will be the low-wage country where goods are assembled from Far Eastern components for the wealthy Far Eastern markets.

  138. @Anonymous
    Some Guy says: 2020 ACT scores by race converted to IQ: 107.4 Asian 100.0 White

    This is the funniest part.

    Asians are demonstrably not more intelligent than whites in the real world. At the individual level or across whole nations.

    Break out the East Asians as a subset and it still doesn't compute.

    US tech companies show a clear pattern: white guy founders early period excellence followed later by heavy asian staffing then stasis and decline.

    Tip of the iceberg of unanswerable questions: Why isn't there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?

    The evidence is all around us that Asian IQ has bizarre gaps in applicability to the real world.

    Perhaps the testing itself is the message. The data is useful to certain interested parties. Doessn't matter if anyone is actually smart or dumb. Like chicom bat flu the testing itself is the message. The data is useful doesn't matter if anyone is actually sick or healthy.

    The test results are their own reality.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “Tip of the iceberg of unanswerable questions: Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”

    Maybe the intellectual skillset for a successful lawyer in the US isn’t the same skillset that, say, is useful for dominating production of carbon fibre or high-purity silicon, you know, the stuff that keeps planes in the air or smartphones ticking over.

    https://www.polyestertime.com/japan-toray-carbon-fiber/

    • Replies: @128
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Everybody dislikes lawyers, until they require one?

    , @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”
     
    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #'s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.

    The people who think that Asians aren't really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you'll see.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @YetAnotherAnon, @PiltdownMan

  139. @Hypnotoad666
    @Henry Canaday

    From a quick look at Murray's paper, he appears to be arguing:

    Fact#1: Rather than showing the steadily rising "Flynn Effect" evident in the rest of the world, the measured average IQ in South Korea and Japan have jumped up and down over time between 105-115, and are currently sitting at the low end of that range.

    Fact#2: Some studies of Asian children adopted by Americans show higher than expected IQs which are nearer the 115 high-water mark.

    Therefore:

    Conclusion #1. The variance in Asian IQ between 105-115 must be due to some mysterious "environmental" impact.

    Conclusion #2. The American "environment" -- unlike the current Asian environment -- has the secret sauce that allows the Asian IQs to rise to their highest possible level.

    Conclusion #3 (Admittedly speculation). This secret sauce may be taking it easy and just not studying too hard, like they supposedly do now (but not in the past!), in Asia.


    I have to admit the data on varying (and recently declining) Asian IQ scores is something I had never heard of and seems pretty puzzling. But Murray's speculative extrapolation from this data is weak.

    A cynic might even suggest that Murray is trying to get into the good graces of the good people by deliberately crafting a narrative that: (1) emphasizes "environmental" effects on IQ; (2) highlights the superiority of a non-white group; and (3) extolls the benefits of liberal "diversity-is-our-strength" American culture.

    Replies: @Henry Canaday

    Murray did not write the paper, he just referred to it on his blog.

    • Replies: @128
    @Henry Canaday

    Well that paper and its author is Grade A stupid.

  140. http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

    European peasants worked for only half a year, so maybe Europeans are just not much used to toil as much as Asians, they basically worked 8 hours a day, 150 days a year, plus if you look at Europe’s northernly latitude vs. central China, daylight hours were a lot shorter in winter and autumn, so it makes sense for Europeans to be not as genetically adapted to working 300 days a year for 14 hours a day as the Chinese are, plus if you look at the technological level of Western Europe in 1500 vs. China, it makes sense historically at least, for Europeans to work smarter, instead of harder.

  141. @Henry Canaday
    @Hypnotoad666

    Murray did not write the paper, he just referred to it on his blog.

    Replies: @128

    Well that paper and its author is Grade A stupid.

  142. @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    It’s pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash)
     
    Hey, Jack, is there a segment of your tribe we can call "jewish trash"?

    Or is it "anti-semitic" to ask that?

    Replies: @Jack D

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if “trash” means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to “bleed off” into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.

    • Replies: @black sea
    @Jack D

    In Israel, the perjorative Arsim is used for sleazy, low-class Jews, sort of like a Jewish version of Guidos.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Jack D


    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply,.............
     
    No, it was intended to highlight the contempt in which you hold people not of your tribe, which is probably obvious to most everyone here.
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if “trash” means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to “bleed off” into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.
     
    Jack, would you consider Messrs. Weinstein, Epstein and Madoff "Jewish Trash?" Or does their economic success redeem them in your eyes?

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Thomm
    @Jack D

    Mr. Anon's comments :

    Quantity : Very High

    Quality : Very Low

    Now, for the lesson : This is how you can tell that a commenter is obese. Their desire to substitute quality with quantity in their words carries over into their views regarding caloric intake, as well as their own BMI and body composition. Yes, it really is that easy to tell from a person's comments alone.

    Therefore, Mr. Anon is not merely obese, but excessively and comically so. He happens to be extremely jealous of the fattest WWE wrestlers, since they have earned money and fame from being fat, which Mr. Anon is unable to do despite how much he coveted the privilege. That is why he hates it when people with vastly higher IQs than him nonetheless watched WWE (then WWF) in their youth. He is feeling left out, and feels entitled to the paycheck and viewership that someone like Akeem the African Dream (450 lbs) earned :

    https://youtu.be/XLY2c7FwERI

    Now, on the subject of 'trash' that Jack D correctly brought up, Mr. Anon is THE epitome of what we functional whites call 'White Trashionalists', since he is bereft of any of the human capital found in the 80% of whites that are part of the functional tier.

    The sheer accumulation of biomass (albeit of low quality) that Mr. Anon represents is an earth-shaking prospect.

  143. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Anonymous

    "Tip of the iceberg of unanswerable questions: Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?"

    Maybe the intellectual skillset for a successful lawyer in the US isn't the same skillset that, say, is useful for dominating production of carbon fibre or high-purity silicon, you know, the stuff that keeps planes in the air or smartphones ticking over.

    https://www.polyestertime.com/japan-toray-carbon-fiber/


    https://www.bizvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Largest-Semiconductor-Companies.png

    Replies: @128, @Jack D

    Everybody dislikes lawyers, until they require one?

  144. I have a feeling that people with high math IQ but not so high verbal IQ are envious of those with high verbal IQ (especially those who have high verbal IQ but more modest math IQ) and basically verbal IQ as not being as real as math IQ, or that those with high verbal IQ (like lawyers) sort of cheated their way to having a good lifestyle, just because they happen to highish verbal IQ.

  145. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if "trash" means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to "bleed off" into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.

    Replies: @black sea, @Mr. Anon, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Thomm

    In Israel, the perjorative Arsim is used for sleazy, low-class Jews, sort of like a Jewish version of Guidos.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @black sea

    In Israel there is a large group of Arab Jews (Yemeni, Moroccan, etc.) who had assimilated to the Arab world, racially and intellectually (which is not a good thing) . Most American Jews are Ashkenazi. The more recent groups of non-Ashkenazi Jews in America (e.g. Iranians, Bukharans) can be somewhat slimy "men in gold chain" types (which is low class of a sort) but you can't call them stupid or poor.

  146. @Guy De Champlagne
    @John Milton’s Ghost

    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they've secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they're supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Kaz, @AnotherDad

    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they’ve secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they’re supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).

    A legitimate case only if your standard is grades.

    The tests are a window into basic–and utterly unsurprising–reality:
    — Women are better at sit still and behave–listen to the lecture, do the homework, study the notes. Women are more cooperative and compliant as any analysis of their biological role would predict.

    — Men are smarter–at least at “figure it out”. Bigger brains, more processing power, more analytical, more rational orientation. (In social reading women are superior–more of their brainpower goes into reading the social landscape–again as you would expect.)

    If you standard is “college grades”, then sure the test is biased against women. But if your standard is “learned useful knowledge and can apply it” or even more so “will move the field forward”–IOW their education is a good social investment–then the test scores are not biased at all.

    Furthermore, the SAT/ACTs are taken at a time when women are essentially physically mature–baked. Quite a few boys haven’t even finished growing even in height when they take the tests. Some are still literally “boys”.

    My guess is there is still some wiring up going on with some of the girls at this time but pretty much all are mentally “all there” in their intellectual capabilities by the time they leave high school at 18. And after that it is just learning stuff, life experience, maturity. While young men are still developing mentally, adding brain cells, developing their higher processing capabilities out to 20, 21… as well as learning, wising up, maturing.

    The SATs/ACTs almost certainly under-predict the male/female gap in intellectual capability.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @AnotherDad


    In social reading women are superior–more of their brainpower goes into reading the social landscape–again as you would expect
     
    You would expect there to be evolutionary differences, but some of the go-to examples have been falling apart. For instance, the "facial reading" example has at least one recent counter result:

    https://medium.com/science-as-fact/men-and-women-are-equally-good-at-reading-facial-expressions-abcad3796a33

    Another example is dexterity, a Steven Pinker favorite, until recently: men are as dextrous as women when finger size is controlled for.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232434698_Do_Women_Really_Excel_over_Men_in_Manual_Dexterity

    The studies that girls are as good as boys at math have various problems in my opinion:

    -- The investigators tend to be women, with little viewpoint diversity in the design of the research, and they come off like they have an agenda.

    -- Mostly average students are compared in the context of typical middle school math classes: Who wants to hire an average mathematician? You need to test a cross-gender representative sample of the right tail. Girl's IQ has a narrower standard deviation anyway, so you're going to have a higher bump of girls in the middle, but fewer at the tails.

    -- Boys are good at figuring out ambiguous math problems where even the type of relevant math is not immediately obvious; girls are good at doing repetitive, recipe-type math solutions of known types of problems (Hidden Figures style stuff). Test should be taking this into account and trying to confirm or debunk it.
    , @Guy De Champlagne
    @AnotherDad

    Women are better at sit still and behave–listen to the lecture, do the homework, study the notes. Women are more cooperative and compliant as any analysis of their biological role would predict.

    These are all things that help you get ahead in life both in and of themselves and because our society is set up to reward other things that derive from them like graduating from college. And as women continue to outperform men in life and pull away from them more and more in life we're going to see more of these kinds of pathetic and blinkered copes until hopefully men wake the fuck up.

  147. Anon[184] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    @Guy De Champlagne


    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they’ve secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they’re supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).
     
    A legitimate case only if your standard is grades.

    The tests are a window into basic--and utterly unsurprising--reality:
    -- Women are better at sit still and behave--listen to the lecture, do the homework, study the notes. Women are more cooperative and compliant as any analysis of their biological role would predict.

    -- Men are smarter--at least at "figure it out". Bigger brains, more processing power, more analytical, more rational orientation. (In social reading women are superior--more of their brainpower goes into reading the social landscape--again as you would expect.)

    If you standard is "college grades", then sure the test is biased against women. But if your standard is "learned useful knowledge and can apply it" or even more so "will move the field forward"--IOW their education is a good social investment--then the test scores are not biased at all.


    Furthermore, the SAT/ACTs are taken at a time when women are essentially physically mature--baked. Quite a few boys haven't even finished growing even in height when they take the tests. Some are still literally "boys".

    My guess is there is still some wiring up going on with some of the girls at this time but pretty much all are mentally "all there" in their intellectual capabilities by the time they leave high school at 18. And after that it is just learning stuff, life experience, maturity. While young men are still developing mentally, adding brain cells, developing their higher processing capabilities out to 20, 21... as well as learning, wising up, maturing.

    The SATs/ACTs almost certainly under-predict the male/female gap in intellectual capability.

    Replies: @Anon, @Guy De Champlagne

    In social reading women are superior–more of their brainpower goes into reading the social landscape–again as you would expect

    You would expect there to be evolutionary differences, but some of the go-to examples have been falling apart. For instance, the “facial reading” example has at least one recent counter result:

    https://medium.com/science-as-fact/men-and-women-are-equally-good-at-reading-facial-expressions-abcad3796a33

    Another example is dexterity, a Steven Pinker favorite, until recently: men are as dextrous as women when finger size is controlled for.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232434698_Do_Women_Really_Excel_over_Men_in_Manual_Dexterity

    The studies that girls are as good as boys at math have various problems in my opinion:

    — The investigators tend to be women, with little viewpoint diversity in the design of the research, and they come off like they have an agenda.

    — Mostly average students are compared in the context of typical middle school math classes: Who wants to hire an average mathematician? You need to test a cross-gender representative sample of the right tail. Girl’s IQ has a narrower standard deviation anyway, so you’re going to have a higher bump of girls in the middle, but fewer at the tails.

    — Boys are good at figuring out ambiguous math problems where even the type of relevant math is not immediately obvious; girls are good at doing repetitive, recipe-type math solutions of known types of problems (Hidden Figures style stuff). Test should be taking this into account and trying to confirm or debunk it.

  148. @128
    Thank you reddit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SATACTprep/comments/ic5oje/new_test_2020_july_act_form_c01_full_exam_with/

    Replies: @Jack D

    This is not a stolen copy that can be used to cheat. Nowadays the testing companies release their previous tests, complete with scoring keys, after each administration. That’s all this is.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    This is not a stolen copy that can be used to cheat. Nowadays the testing companies release their previous tests, complete with scoring keys, after each administration. That’s all this is.
     
    Jack, there was some evidence a while ago that the Chinese were using espionage techniques to capture the tests when they were administered in the United States to domestic students, and prior to the same tests being administered to Chinese students in China seeking admissions to U.S. Universities. I don't know whatever happened to this, and my recollection is that the people behind the SAT (who are liable to influence by the Universities) sought to sweep this issue under the rug (the Universities of course greatly benefit financially from foreign students). Add to this the fact that it is rather evident that the CCP is pursuing an espionage/influence campaign via U.S. Universities, and it is not all that far fetched to imagine that some high level efforts on the part of the CCP have corrupted these tests to the benefit of Chinese test takers.

    Replies: @Jack D

  149. @black sea
    @Jack D

    In Israel, the perjorative Arsim is used for sleazy, low-class Jews, sort of like a Jewish version of Guidos.

    Replies: @Jack D

    In Israel there is a large group of Arab Jews (Yemeni, Moroccan, etc.) who had assimilated to the Arab world, racially and intellectually (which is not a good thing) . Most American Jews are Ashkenazi. The more recent groups of non-Ashkenazi Jews in America (e.g. Iranians, Bukharans) can be somewhat slimy “men in gold chain” types (which is low class of a sort) but you can’t call them stupid or poor.

  150. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Anonymous

    "Tip of the iceberg of unanswerable questions: Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?"

    Maybe the intellectual skillset for a successful lawyer in the US isn't the same skillset that, say, is useful for dominating production of carbon fibre or high-purity silicon, you know, the stuff that keeps planes in the air or smartphones ticking over.

    https://www.polyestertime.com/japan-toray-carbon-fiber/


    https://www.bizvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Largest-Semiconductor-Companies.png

    Replies: @128, @Jack D

    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”

    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #’s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.

    The people who think that Asians aren’t really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you’ll see.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D



    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”

     

    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #’s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.
     
    I'll demur to your explanation here but still point out that East Asians greatly underperform their purported general population intelligence premium (even if it emphasizes mathematics over verbal skills) in the field of the Law. (Conversely, American blacks greatly overperform their general population intelligence deficit in the field of the Law particularly in oral advocacy). Something unknown or undiscovered must account for this discrepancy. You have to ask whether the verbal IQ premium is real (as opposed to the product of test-specific cramming) if it doesn't produce real world problem solving/task execution benefits.

    It is, of course, one thing to be able to recite the dictionary definition of words - and another to have the mastery to use them fluidly and correctly in light of their meanings and connotations in written and spoken communication. I imagine that the East Asian intelligence premium on the verbal side of things relies upon the ability to memorize the word's precise dictionary definition without regard for the ability to apply this knowledge by using the word to the very ends of language itself (i.e., to communicate ideas to others so that they may understand them). The advantage therefore seems to be more a tolerance for tedium and monotony than the aptitude to use language effectively for the purpose of communication or persuasion.

    The people who think that Asians aren’t really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you’ll see.
     
    The East Asian intelligence premium over non-Hispanic whites is rather modest. My surmise is that the East Asian intelligence bell curve is flatter than that of non-Hispanic whites (i.e., distributions would show fewer morons and fewer genius). The flatter East Asian intelligence premium would probably yield what we see with our own eyes today - East Asian societies are more harmonious and suffer from less social pathology but also less significant innovation and creativity than Western societies. Who precisely was holding back the achievements of the Han Isaac Newton for centuries before contact with the West?

    And it's ridiculous to state that "there was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein" as support for the proposition that Jewish intellectual potential was latent until recent history (I hold that theoretical physics has much more in common with philosophy than engineering). There was Spinoza - a Sephardim - who is a serviceable analog for an Einstein in the former's time.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    , @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    The point I failed to get over is that while the US may throw money and prestige at lawyers and hedge fund people, in Japan and China prestige is directed at engineers - the people who actually get stuff done.

    Chinese high-speed rail really redefines "first-world". They have more of it than the rest of the world put together. I get a 1950s/60s USA vibe, or maybe the Victorian Britain of Brunel.

    https://www.chinadiscovery.com/assets/images/Train/maps/china-high-speed-rail-map.jpg

    Replies: @Znzn

    , @PiltdownMan
    @Jack D


    There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either.
     
    Yes, but there was a Jewish Jacobi, and he easily ranks, albeit as a mathematician, and not a physicist, alongside a Newton, Einstein (or perhaps a Gauss.) J.J. Sylvester, Kronecker and Cantor would rank just a slight bit below that level of genius.

    Mathematics is the relevant field one needs to look at. Classical physics developed greatly under Newton, and then again in the 19th century, but progress in mathematics has been more or less steady over the course of the last millennium, and there have been many Jewish mathematicians of note until the great explosion in both fields in the late 19th century, after which Jewish mathematicians have been disproportionately dominant in that field, far more so than in physics.

    More recently, a quarter of all the Fields medals and a third of all the Abel prizes have been awarded to mathematicians who are Jewish.
  151. The recent declines aren’t as sharp as on the SAT, where the test was redone a couple of years ago, which messed up everybody except Asians.

    The original Scholastic Aptitude Test was essentially an IQ test until the late 1990s (MENSA accepts an SAT score by more or less dropping the final digit as a proxy IQ test). It reflected some aspirations to a genuine American meritocracy by standardizing a major credential for admission into elite Universities. You could imagine an Indiana farm boy taking the SAT back then, scoring highly, and winding up at a place like MIT. (I’m imagining here the fictional character of Dr. Sam Beckett from the 80s-90s television show Quantum Leap).

    Then, in the 1990s when “diversity” really got going, there was a move to “recenter” the SAT by resetting its median score to a lower standard (in other words, a substandard result of a combined 900 or so would be scored at 1000) to reflect the new demographics of the test-takers and the college bound during the period of great college inflation.

    Subsequently, there was outside pressure and resultant efforts to make the test more “wholistic” by introducing subjective factors into the test via a writing component. The subjective factors would be those most liable to gaming by the test taker emphasizing his or her diversity points in non-sequitur essay form, and by the use of expensive test preparation strategy courses by the wealthy.

    An SAT that can be more readily gamed by test preparation and strategy would seem to fall right within the wheelhouse of the Studyasian-children-of-Tigermoms population. I wonder (greatly suspect) whether the ability to cram and grind in preparation for the test accounts for the Asian score premiums that we now see. In such a case, it would behoove non-elite Whites to pressure the Institutions to return to the SAT as a pure IQ proxy, where the Asians’ much more modest IQ premium would not yield such a significant advantage in elite admissions (and would be overwhelmed in absolute terms by the high scores of the significantly higher white population). After all, the Test was originated in order to test the candidate’s aptitude for post-secondary learning, not the candidate’s ability to devote countless hours to memorize questions and answers in order to feign greater scholastic aptitude than that which the candidate actually possesses. (I think it’s rather evident that Asian cram artists seem to peak at the point of University admissions, and are rather rarely seen at the highest levels of intellectual fields in spite of their over-representation in elite educational institutions).

    Of course, this would serve the Universities’ interests in quelling the outrage at their Asian rejection rates by granting to them an objective standard to support those rejections on the one hand; but of course on the other hand they’d get their diversity initiatives more knotted up and I’m not certain that elite Universities would prefer to admit more children of prole whites into their sanctum sanctorum of elite production. All of which is to say that they’d only allow it kicking and screaming and at the risk of losing tax exempt status for their endowment incomes.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I really don't know what kind of hidden reserves of Indiana farm boys who would attend MIT if they could score better on a more g loaded SAT still exist. Even if he could, very often said farm boy would rather attend Indiana U. or Notre Dame or even community college, especially if his goal was to stay in Indiana and take over the family "farm" which nowadays is more like the family "agribusiness" or even if his goal is to practice engineering or law or medicine in Indianapolis. The IQ sorting has been going on for a couple of generations now and the ranks of the whites who would like to get a top 10 university type education and move to the big city and play in the big leagues of the meritocracy have been pretty well picked over.

    Keep in mind that the SAT is supposed to be a predictor of freshman college grades. Getting good grades in college requires not only high IQ but also a certain amount of diligence (Edison thought that diligence was even more important than genius) so making the test into more of a pure IQ test would tend to overpromote who were more smart than diligent. I am not aware of any studies that show that the current test overpromotes Asians because their test prepping (and maybe even test cheating although I think the extent of this is exaggerated around here) continues once they get to college. Studying hard for a test if the material does not come naturally to you and mastering said material as a result of such diligent effort is not "cheating".

    Replies: @Alec Leamas Remote

  152. If Asians are going to be called “Asians “ shouldn’t we call blacks Africans?

  153. anon[287] • Disclaimer says:

    Affirmative Action is like the indulgent parent who makes the strong kid stronger and the weak kid weaker. Asian kids know it is the hardest for them to get into top colleges so they work the hardest. What we need to do is reverse the AA: make it the easiest for Asians to get into college and the hardest for blacks, et voila! In five years blacks will be the highest scoring group and Asians will be the lowest. Psych 101, people.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @anon


    Affirmative Action is like the indulgent parent who makes the strong kid stronger and the weak kid weaker. Asian kids know it is the hardest for them to get into top colleges so they work the hardest. What we need to do is reverse the AA: make it the easiest for Asians to get into college and the hardest for blacks, et voila! In five years blacks will be the highest scoring group and Asians will be the lowest. Psych 101, people.
     
    On the other hand, Psych 201 is the what geneticists call the "nature of nurture."

    Your "environment" is about 50 percent genetically determined. Plomin has a whole chapter on it, but for instance:


    For example, evidence for genetic influence has been found for home environments such as chaotic family environments, for classroom environments such as supportive teachers, peer characteristics such as being bullied, neighbourhood safety, being exposed to drugs, work environments and the quality of one’s marriage. Results showing genetic influence are not limited to the classic twin design. They also emerged from studies of twins reared apart, other adoption designs and, most recently, from DNA studies. Characteristics of adolescents’ peer groups are especially highly heritable, such as the peer group’s academic orientation or their delinquency. The reason for this high heritability may be that you can choose your friends but you cannot choose your family...
     
    Plomin invented this idea and a chapter of his book is about it. Hundreds of studies have been done to confirm and replicate it. Think about it: how much acting out happens in your school classes and how helpful your teachers are to you is substantially determined by your genome. Get your head around that concept. Counterintuitive, but it's true.

    Kevin Mitchell in his book points out that brains continue to develop through adolescence, and thus "environmental" factors are reflected in organic brain structure.


    Far from flattening out or overwriting initial differences, our experiences thus tend to consolidate them instead.
     
    Asians study because they are good at it to begin with, they see progress and are gratified by it, and doing it makes them better and better at it. Blacks on average study less because they are not as good at it to begin with, they don't see so much progress, it's hard and frustrating, and their avoidance of it thus leaves them more and more behind.
  154. @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”
     
    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #'s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.

    The people who think that Asians aren't really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you'll see.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @YetAnotherAnon, @PiltdownMan

    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”

    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #’s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.

    I’ll demur to your explanation here but still point out that East Asians greatly underperform their purported general population intelligence premium (even if it emphasizes mathematics over verbal skills) in the field of the Law. (Conversely, American blacks greatly overperform their general population intelligence deficit in the field of the Law particularly in oral advocacy). Something unknown or undiscovered must account for this discrepancy. You have to ask whether the verbal IQ premium is real (as opposed to the product of test-specific cramming) if it doesn’t produce real world problem solving/task execution benefits.

    It is, of course, one thing to be able to recite the dictionary definition of words – and another to have the mastery to use them fluidly and correctly in light of their meanings and connotations in written and spoken communication. I imagine that the East Asian intelligence premium on the verbal side of things relies upon the ability to memorize the word’s precise dictionary definition without regard for the ability to apply this knowledge by using the word to the very ends of language itself (i.e., to communicate ideas to others so that they may understand them). The advantage therefore seems to be more a tolerance for tedium and monotony than the aptitude to use language effectively for the purpose of communication or persuasion.

    The people who think that Asians aren’t really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you’ll see.

    The East Asian intelligence premium over non-Hispanic whites is rather modest. My surmise is that the East Asian intelligence bell curve is flatter than that of non-Hispanic whites (i.e., distributions would show fewer morons and fewer genius). The flatter East Asian intelligence premium would probably yield what we see with our own eyes today – East Asian societies are more harmonious and suffer from less social pathology but also less significant innovation and creativity than Western societies. Who precisely was holding back the achievements of the Han Isaac Newton for centuries before contact with the West?

    And it’s ridiculous to state that “there was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein” as support for the proposition that Jewish intellectual potential was latent until recent history (I hold that theoretical physics has much more in common with philosophy than engineering). There was Spinoza – a Sephardim – who is a serviceable analog for an Einstein in the former’s time.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    My surmise is that the East Asian intelligence bell curve is flatter than that of non-Hispanic whites (i.e., distributions would show fewer morons and fewer genius). The flatter East Asian intelligence premium would probably yield what we see with our own eyes today – East Asian societies are more harmonious and suffer from less social pathology but also less significant innovation and creativity than Western societies.
     
    You are basically talking Finnish....

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289614000920

    Solving the puzzle of why Finns have the highest IQ, but one of the lowest number of Nobel prizes in Europe

    Finland has been noted to perform consistently very well in the international PISA assessments for many years, but it also has a relatively low per capita number of Nobel Prize winners. We draw upon a large body of proxy data and direct evidence, including the first ever use of RTs to calculate the Finnish IQ and the first ever use of the WAIS IV and PISA scores in the same capacity. Based on these data, we hypothesize that Finns perform so consistently well in PISA because they have a higher IQ overall than other European countries and exhibit a specialized slow life history strategy characterized by high Agreeableness and Conscientiousness, and low Psychoticism and Extraversion. Most of these traits predict educational success but all would suppress genius and creativity amongst this population.

    Replies: @128

  155. @Jack D
    @128

    This is not a stolen copy that can be used to cheat. Nowadays the testing companies release their previous tests, complete with scoring keys, after each administration. That's all this is.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    This is not a stolen copy that can be used to cheat. Nowadays the testing companies release their previous tests, complete with scoring keys, after each administration. That’s all this is.

    Jack, there was some evidence a while ago that the Chinese were using espionage techniques to capture the tests when they were administered in the United States to domestic students, and prior to the same tests being administered to Chinese students in China seeking admissions to U.S. Universities. I don’t know whatever happened to this, and my recollection is that the people behind the SAT (who are liable to influence by the Universities) sought to sweep this issue under the rug (the Universities of course greatly benefit financially from foreign students). Add to this the fact that it is rather evident that the CCP is pursuing an espionage/influence campaign via U.S. Universities, and it is not all that far fetched to imagine that some high level efforts on the part of the CCP have corrupted these tests to the benefit of Chinese test takers.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    It's possible but this document has nothing to do with that. I have no doubt that some cheating exists and has always existed (there are rumors that Trump paid someone to take his SAT for him) but I don't think you can explain away Asian test scores as 100% the result of cheating. Are they cheating at the Math Olympiad and everywhere else too? How is it that millions of Asians are all cheating on the SAT and yet no evidence of it is ever uncovered? Are they also geniuses at covering their tracks completely?

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  156. anon[287] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox
    @Jack D

    > They do well in life because they are high IQ.

    They do well in life because they are conscientious and hard-working. IQ is positively correlated with that, for reasons both inherent and environmental. But correlation is just that: correlation. Life is probabilistic.

    What a high IQ does is you give you more processing power in your brain, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't automatically mean you'll be creative, have a great work ethic, will be resilient and persistent, or anything else. Since IQ does include the ability to predict outcomes, that makes it more likely that you'll figure out that working hard today means a better outcome tomorrow. But children are children, no matter how bright they are: they need to be trained. They will be heavily impacted by the environment around them. If you have parents that don't teach you this kind of stuff, you aren't as likely-which is not to say it is impossible-to gain those traits, regardless of your own IQ.

    (I should also note that having high IQ parents is not necessary to learning the value of hard work and conscientiousness. What a high IQ does is give you more options on what to do with that hard work and conscientiousness, and also makes it more likely you'll have parents who value that, too. Culture can sometimes override this, but the impact of that is pretty limited and self-selecting.)

    This leads to the nature vs. nurture question. High IQ kids tend to be born to high IQ parents, especially in this age of assortative mating. But you do get your outliers: you'll have high IQ parents produce mediocre children, or you'll have mediocre parents (sometimes you had a high IQ grandparent) produce brilliant children. In the case of the former, that's behind the dynamic of "EVERY KID MUST GO TO COLLEGE" in upper-middle class America, given the deep, crippling social shame behind non-professional jobs. In the latter, stuff like magnet schools in inner cities exist for them, though you'll note that the majority of kids at a Bronx Science or Stuy come from Asian cultures where even blue-collar parents would rather see kids go barefoot than uneducated, not too different from the working-class parents of many Jews at CCNY in 1920/1930s NYC.

    Anyway, if you are lazy or apathetic or have other overriding problems, a high IQ isn't going to do much for you. It might even prove counterproductive in certain contexts, especially when you combine that with weaknesses elsewhere. IQ exists, and it does play an important role. But it isn't everything. The other thing is that once you get over a certain point of mental power, for non-geniuses (and that's the *overwhelming* majority of people), other factors become more important in determining success. Social skills, ability to network, conscientiousness, interests/values, etc.

    >Letting lots and lots of unqualified stupid people into our universities will not make them any smarter or more successful in life than they already are. It will just reduce the value of everyone else’s degree.

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that's done is create more service workers with bachelor's degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It's not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    I'm not against education. I'm against useless, stupid credentialism that pressures everybody go to university at 18 years old, regardless of ability, life goals, or maturity.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Spangel, @128, @Anonymous, @anon

    Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea have well over half of kids graduating from college these days. All that’s done is create more service workers with bachelor’s degrees and upped the arms race into graduate school. It’s not tenable, particularly when people get into their 30s and the biological clock starts ticking for women.

    Russian-American scientist Peter Turchin predicted in 2010 that there will be increasing unrest in the US for the next decade, peaking in 2020, due to what he called “overproduction of elites”. How many of these white Antifa, BLM protesters are college grads with useless libart degrees stuck in dead end jobs in service, admin or academia? Probably most of them.

    College has become a credentialing cartel. It’s time for a bust-up of this cartel. If Trump gets re-elected, I really hope he will put money into vocational ed instead of more funding for higher ed. Also we need to starve the beast and end the OPT program, which is the #1 draw colleges use to draw in more high fee paying foreign students to help fund the left wing causes on college campuses. The program also takes away important entry level jobs from our own grads leading to mass under employment for college grads. But these grads are so dumb and so brainwashed they actually fight for more immigration to further diminish their own economic well-being. I sometimes think Leftists are people who have evolved to the point where they’ve lost all capacity for self-preservation.

  157. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if "trash" means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to "bleed off" into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.

    Replies: @black sea, @Mr. Anon, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Thomm

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply,………….

    No, it was intended to highlight the contempt in which you hold people not of your tribe, which is probably obvious to most everyone here.

  158. This superior intelligence of the Asians is a myth. They’re good imitators, but never originators.

    This is the way the Asian youngsters get high scores, this is what THEY THEMSELVES have confessed to:

    The Asians are a tight knit group and have extensive orgs. Not only do they have classes for their students Sat. mornings, but the parents send their children to cram for the SATs in tutoring classes.

    They study with tests ALREADY given in previous years, to their older siblings, cousins or friends, RIGHT THERE in the TUTORING classes. They cram for the tests and MEMORIZE the answers, because , in general, the questions are the same, from previous years, just the order of the questions are just juggled around.

    THe kiddies take the tests, but afterwards, the answers are forgotten, they just erase the subject out of their heads, because they couldn’t care less., it’s just their parents pushing them. This they confess to, themselves.

    So, the kids, don’t really know the subject, but PASS WITH FLYING COLORS.

    And they do this year after year. Thus, the myth that the Asians are brighter and have a higher IQ.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Nona2

    The SAT nowadays releases past editions of their tests. They publish them in books, for anyone to buy. If Asians are preparing for tests by studying previous editions of the test, they are not "cheating". Nor does the College Board recycle the exact questions.

    I highly recommend to anyone that they should prepare for the SATs/ACTs by taking these past tests at home under simulated test conditions. This will accustom you to the types of questions that they like to ask, to the formats used, to the necessary pace, to the way that the SAT (especially) likes to try to trick you with "distractor" answers, etc. Both of my kids studied for the SAT in this exact way (and only in this way) and they both got very high scores (not that this prep was the only reason, but it was helpful). If there are questions that you get wrong, you have to figure out why you got them wrong and what you need to do in the future so that you don't get similar questions wrong on the actual test.

    If white people are too lazy to prep for the test in this obvious way, then they are also probably too lazy to study for their college exams. The SAT is supposed to predict freshman year college grades and so this probably only adds to their predictive value.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  159. @Jack D
    @Spangel

    Hell, we don't even understand white endogamous groups in America. It's pretty obvious that there is more than one breeding group of white people in America (e.g. WASPs vs. white trash) and that their mean IQs differ but they all get lumped under "white". The top group of WASPs are just as smart as Jews but there are a lot more of them (and all of the destructive social effects that anti-Semites assign to the Jews can also be assigned to that group).

    In the future, they will be one group - the secular Jew-WASPs - because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes. The E. Asians will also get mixed in. The S. Asians will take another generation or two before they totally interbreed with the other American IQ elites.

    Replies: @Spangel, @Mr. Anon, @Hypnotoad666, @Polistra, @Bardon Kaldian

    In the future, they will be one group – the secular Jew-WASPs – because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes.

    I don’t know about IQ, but your interbreeding patterns are wrong:

    https://18doors.org/why_do_jews_marry_catholics/

    According to the U.S. Religion Landscape Survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 39% of intermarried Jews are married to Catholics, even though Protestants outnumber Catholics in the U.S. by nearly two to one. Only 23% of intermarried Jews are married to Protestants. Overall, slightly less than a third of all married Jews are intermarried.

    “This is something that everyone has known for years,” says Rabbi Arthur Blecher, who noted the trend in last year’s The New American Judaism: The Way Forward on Challenging Issues from Intermarriage to Jewish Identity. “Social workers, rabbis, and certainly Jews. No one knows exactly why. It is not as though the Jews are saying ‘Gee, I would like to marry a Catholic…’”

    While no one has formally studied the question, sociologist Steven Cohen, a professor at New York’s Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, boils the phenomenon down to one word: geography.

    “Jews are concentrated in the Northeast, and so are Catholics,” he says. “People tend to marry people they encounter. I can’t say that the Jews have any special affection for people who are Catholic.”

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Bardon Kaldian


    “Jews are concentrated in the Northeast, and so are Catholics,” he says. “People tend to marry people they encounter. I can’t say that the Jews have any special affection for people who are Catholic.”
     
    What percentage of Catholics married to Jews are of Italian descent?

    Surely, some will understand the relation the question has to the material you quoted.
  160. @Henry Canaday
    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated:

    https://dataanddiscourse.wordpress.com/2020/09/02/is-the-genotypic-iq-of-east-asians-115/

    author argues environmental factors have suppressed the measured gap in the past.

    If true or partially true, this would have major implications, for East Asians are bound to be a much larger portion of U.S. population than Jews ever were. Whites would have to get used to having East Asians dominate in many fields; on the other hand, this would be a huge gain in the intellectual resources of the U.S. at a time when promiscuous immigration policy threatens to dumb us down.

    Replies: @SFG, @AndrewR, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @bomag, @J.Ross, @indocon, @John Derbyshire, @Rob, @Lot, @Hypnotoad666, @Rahan

    Assume you saw this study, referenced by Charles Murray, arguing that the genetic East Asian-white IQ gap is about the same as the Ashkenazi-gentile gap has been traditionally estimated

    Remember the opposite historical trajectories.

    Jews and the Chinese are both (basically the only) nations that survived from the bronze age to now. The planet has grown small and a showdown now seems inevitable, with the Jews harnessing the Anglosphere and to an extent Europe and India on their side.

    However, the differences:
    – The Chinese had a nation state the whole time
    – The Jews were a diaspora the whole time
    – The Chinese did not develop strict religious frameworks and eat anything
    – For the Jews without a homeland, strict religious frameworks + what to eat and what to do on what day and how to hate the goyim, all this provided an exoskeleton which allowed the nation to survive over the centuries without a national homeland
    – The Chinese learned how to manage their own country and invented modern bureaucracy 3000 years ago.
    – The Jews learned how to take over the nervous system of their host countries (was already a smooth practice by the time of Cleopatra)

    Thus, while IQ is IQ, the different survival strategies lead to different results today. The Chinese abroad may either keep to themselves or try to assimilate or to dominate some specific field, but they don’t have what it takes (yet) to take over the whole nervous system of the host nation.

    Likewise, Jews are not (yet) capable of pulling it off with the oldest surviving nation state (China)

    In a sense it’s like a millenia-long drama of the two opposites, to which the rest of the world provides decorations.

    We do, however, seem to be approaching some sort of crisis between the two nations, finally.

  161. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    This is not a stolen copy that can be used to cheat. Nowadays the testing companies release their previous tests, complete with scoring keys, after each administration. That’s all this is.
     
    Jack, there was some evidence a while ago that the Chinese were using espionage techniques to capture the tests when they were administered in the United States to domestic students, and prior to the same tests being administered to Chinese students in China seeking admissions to U.S. Universities. I don't know whatever happened to this, and my recollection is that the people behind the SAT (who are liable to influence by the Universities) sought to sweep this issue under the rug (the Universities of course greatly benefit financially from foreign students). Add to this the fact that it is rather evident that the CCP is pursuing an espionage/influence campaign via U.S. Universities, and it is not all that far fetched to imagine that some high level efforts on the part of the CCP have corrupted these tests to the benefit of Chinese test takers.

    Replies: @Jack D

    It’s possible but this document has nothing to do with that. I have no doubt that some cheating exists and has always existed (there are rumors that Trump paid someone to take his SAT for him) but I don’t think you can explain away Asian test scores as 100% the result of cheating. Are they cheating at the Math Olympiad and everywhere else too? How is it that millions of Asians are all cheating on the SAT and yet no evidence of it is ever uncovered? Are they also geniuses at covering their tracks completely?

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D

    I did not propose that any particular document is probative of anything.

    The combined Asian test scores include the scores of foreign test takers (i.e. Chinese) who take the tests overseas (in China) after the tests are administered in the United States, yes? If the CCP is using international espionage techniques in order to acquire tests, and to then tip its own agents off to the questions and answers so that they are highly competitive applicants at, inter alia, Universities which do valuable research applicable to defense and general technological innovation, that's an issue to me.

    Additionally, it may not be direct evidence of cheating itself but the Tigermom culture Asian edition is shame based, where the ultimate sin is to bring shame upon one's family by performing poorly in an academic context. Ergo, there is a cultural incentive to cram, but also to attempt to cheat if cramming can't suffice to yield the honorable outcomes. Of course, it's always murky when cheating scandals are uncovered since the identities of the minor participants are rarely if ever reported so we just won't know if we're talking about a bunch of Wangs and Chens.

    Replies: @128, @Bardon Kaldian

  162. @Nona2
    This superior intelligence of the Asians is a myth. They're good imitators, but never originators.

    This is the way the Asian youngsters get high scores, this is what THEY THEMSELVES have confessed to:

    The Asians are a tight knit group and have extensive orgs. Not only do they have classes for their students Sat. mornings, but the parents send their children to cram for the SATs in tutoring classes.

    They study with tests ALREADY given in previous years, to their older siblings, cousins or friends, RIGHT THERE in the TUTORING classes. They cram for the tests and MEMORIZE the answers, because , in general, the questions are the same, from previous years, just the order of the questions are just juggled around.

    THe kiddies take the tests, but afterwards, the answers are forgotten, they just erase the subject out of their heads, because they couldn't care less., it's just their parents pushing them. This they confess to, themselves.

    So, the kids, don't really know the subject, but PASS WITH FLYING COLORS.

    And they do this year after year. Thus, the myth that the Asians are brighter and have a higher IQ.

    Replies: @Jack D

    The SAT nowadays releases past editions of their tests. They publish them in books, for anyone to buy. If Asians are preparing for tests by studying previous editions of the test, they are not “cheating”. Nor does the College Board recycle the exact questions.

    I highly recommend to anyone that they should prepare for the SATs/ACTs by taking these past tests at home under simulated test conditions. This will accustom you to the types of questions that they like to ask, to the formats used, to the necessary pace, to the way that the SAT (especially) likes to try to trick you with “distractor” answers, etc. Both of my kids studied for the SAT in this exact way (and only in this way) and they both got very high scores (not that this prep was the only reason, but it was helpful). If there are questions that you get wrong, you have to figure out why you got them wrong and what you need to do in the future so that you don’t get similar questions wrong on the actual test.

    If white people are too lazy to prep for the test in this obvious way, then they are also probably too lazy to study for their college exams. The SAT is supposed to predict freshman year college grades and so this probably only adds to their predictive value.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D

    Jack, it may come as a surprise to you but I scored very, very well myself on the SAT before it was first molested by diversity but I think you're missing major pieces of the puzzle here.

    These tests are supposed to be a measure of scholastic aptitude to identify students worthy by their intellectual gifts of further education, not feats of raw grinding ability, repetition, and tolerance for monotony.

    There is a world of difference between a bright American high school student with a good scholastic work ethic, rigor, and natural intellectual curiosity and a first generation Asian American subjected to what amounts to child abuse in the home for the sake of family honor. I do not believe that a race to the bottom, forcing American teens to compete with subjects of mental and psychological abuse for dwindling educational opportunities is a general benefit to the United States. I don't think that it makes the United States more "competitive" globally, and I think that it does a lot to further fracture an already fractured polity.

    If East Asians and other newcomers are gobbling up outsized proportions of educational opportunities in the United States as a consequence of some arbitrage between the general American culture (even and including the culture of high achievement) and foreign abusive grinding practices foisted upon children I do not lay the blame at the feet of "lazy white American kids" as you do. I think a bright, studious American kid ought to be able to do his studies, play baseball, date girls, and have a shot at entry into an elite educational institution commensurate with his scholastic aptitude and talents. I think it is a tragedy and a crime if some East Asian mediocrity by comparison bests him as the result of cramming under pressure to feign higher scholastic aptitude.

    Replies: @Jack D

  163. I guess the puzzle is why ancient Chinese math was relatively less advanced than ancient Greek or Indian math, relative to their inventions, whereas the ancient Indians were a lot more advanced than the Chinese in the theoretical areas, but were basically zero in terms of applications. People may reason that theoretical pie in the sky mathematical treatises are a lot less useful in the real world than practical inventions, but then theoretical math can be very useful in real world applications. But then the puzzle is that spatial advantages, rather than verbal advantages, are supposed to be helpful in math, but then the Chinese have a spatial advantage , but then were behind in math compared to Greek, Indians, or even Sumerians, who are supposed to be at a disadvantage in math compared to East Asians because of relatively weak spatial abilities compared to verbal IQ? Or maybe verbal IQ contributes to mathematical abilities a lot stronger than what we know so far?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @128


    Or maybe verbal IQ contributes to mathematical abilities a lot stronger than what we know so far?
     
    Or maybe the IQ stuff is, when it comes to the genius-type achievement, no more than phlogiston or snake oil?

    Replies: @128

  164. Well the College Board and universities get a lot of their funding from foreign students , why would they do something that will jeopardize their revenue source? As for the math Olympiads vs. spelling bees, I notice that Indian Americans are basically absent in the US math Olympiad contestants, where as East Asians are basically absent at the spelling bees, now considering how good Indians are with computer science and programming which is closely closely related to math skills, that may just mean that East Asians are just not interested in spelling bees and Indians just less math Olympiads as a pointless waste of time, rather than their lack of participation showing a lack of IQ.

    • Replies: @Spangel
    @128

    "As for the math Olympiads vs. spelling bees, I notice that Indian Americans are basically absent in the US math Olympiad contestants"

    That's not in the least bit accurate. The site below lists US math olympiad contestants-

    https://www.imo-official.org/country_individual_r.aspx?code=USA&column=year&order=desc

    In the last 5 years, gopal goel, adam adreishar, Mihir Anand Singhal, Ankan Bhattacharya, Ashwin Sah and Shyam Narayanan were on the US math olympiad team. This makes them perhaps 4 or 5 times more prevalent as whites but still far less prevalent than East Asians on the American team.

    It is difficult to explain how south asians can be so much more represented in the US math olympiad team given the extent to which whites outnumber them and the overall IQ of south Asia. It should all but impossible for there to be that many more south asians than whites at the far right tail of math ability. Really, it's strange given that south asians are indo-aryan and indiginous south asian, the former group being perhaps equal in IQ to modern whites and the latter group seemingly being lower, given what we know of pure indiginous SA populations. But it is what it is. Evidently, the ability to increase group IQ through endogamous marriage is something that can be done relatively quickly and to an astounding extent.

    Replies: @ABCStar

  165. It is probably difficult to be anything other than anecdotal reports.

  166. @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    It's possible but this document has nothing to do with that. I have no doubt that some cheating exists and has always existed (there are rumors that Trump paid someone to take his SAT for him) but I don't think you can explain away Asian test scores as 100% the result of cheating. Are they cheating at the Math Olympiad and everywhere else too? How is it that millions of Asians are all cheating on the SAT and yet no evidence of it is ever uncovered? Are they also geniuses at covering their tracks completely?

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I did not propose that any particular document is probative of anything.

    The combined Asian test scores include the scores of foreign test takers (i.e. Chinese) who take the tests overseas (in China) after the tests are administered in the United States, yes? If the CCP is using international espionage techniques in order to acquire tests, and to then tip its own agents off to the questions and answers so that they are highly competitive applicants at, inter alia, Universities which do valuable research applicable to defense and general technological innovation, that’s an issue to me.

    Additionally, it may not be direct evidence of cheating itself but the Tigermom culture Asian edition is shame based, where the ultimate sin is to bring shame upon one’s family by performing poorly in an academic context. Ergo, there is a cultural incentive to cram, but also to attempt to cheat if cramming can’t suffice to yield the honorable outcomes. Of course, it’s always murky when cheating scandals are uncovered since the identities of the minor participants are rarely if ever reported so we just won’t know if we’re talking about a bunch of Wangs and Chens.

    • Replies: @128
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I think the people in this blog are being unfair and petty in maligning whites for being lazier than East Asians and unwilling to do grind work, I mean would people in this blog malign whites for not being as fast in running as blacks? Keep in mind the Europeans peasants came from an environment where the sun lasted a lot shorter in the day except for summer, due to Europe's northerly latitude (Beijing which was at the very northernmost end of historical Chinese civilization has the same latitude as Salerno, Kyoto has a more southerly latitude and Seoul has the same latitude as Seville), and compared to Han Chinese, Koreans, or Japanese, Europeans grew wheat, which required a lot less work than rice to grow the equivalent amount of food. Also according to medieval records, when wages rose, European peasants choose to work less in order to get the same amount of income, rather than work more for more income, also in medieval Europe peasants worked only 150 days a year, with the rest of the year being religious holidays and feast days, so working less hours may just have been genetically involved in them. So maybe the historical emphasis for Europeans was working smarter over working harder, or maybe the short growing season plus planting wheat instead of rice meant that genetically, Europeans are just not suited for working 14 hours a day 300 days a year, unlike Chinese, Koreans, or Japanese. And based on this (the Maddison Project) Western Europe had a substantially higher per capita GDP than East Asia did during the Middle Ages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    While they probably cheat at higher rates, I would take this more seriously ....

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/chinese-science/

    Chinese Science

    Total spending on R&D in China (as a percentage of GDP) more than doubled from 0.9% in 2000 to 2.1% in 2016… China’s share of high-impact academic publications (the top 0.1% of papers in Scopus, which rates by citations) has grown, from less than 1% in 1997 to about 20% in 2016.
    ..........................

    Now yes, Chinese papers have a reputation for shoddiness, being worse on average than Western ones, but absolute values do matter, and quality is rapidly improving anyway.

    Incidentally, this is confirmed by China’s performance on Nature’s WFC index, where it rose from 24% of the US level in 2013 to 40% in 2016, and 46% as of just the Oct 2016-Sep 2017 period.

  167. @Bill P
    @Reg Cæsar

    I remember meeting a Chinese peasant kid who was as smart as a whip. The whole village was rooting for him, which is more than you can say about the typical American suburban high school. There are a lot of dumb Chinese peasants, but they all value intellectual achievement.

    BTW, Chinese peasants are some of the best people on earth. Humble, generous, strong, hardworking and stoic. You can't find much better human material to work with. Your typical UMC American is moral and physical scum in comparison.

    If I had a choice of whether to dine in a hovel in Hebei or a mcmansion in suburban DC I'd take the rancid mutton and sorghum liquor over the California wine and arugula without a second thought.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jack D

    If I had a choice of whether to dine in a hovel in Hebei or a mcmansion in suburban DC I’d take the rancid mutton and sorghum liquor over the California wine and arugula without a second thought.

    I would highly recommend a second thought. And third. At least avoid the fermented pasta:

    Chinese family of nine dies after eating toxic noodles

  168. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D



    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”

     

    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #’s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.
     
    I'll demur to your explanation here but still point out that East Asians greatly underperform their purported general population intelligence premium (even if it emphasizes mathematics over verbal skills) in the field of the Law. (Conversely, American blacks greatly overperform their general population intelligence deficit in the field of the Law particularly in oral advocacy). Something unknown or undiscovered must account for this discrepancy. You have to ask whether the verbal IQ premium is real (as opposed to the product of test-specific cramming) if it doesn't produce real world problem solving/task execution benefits.

    It is, of course, one thing to be able to recite the dictionary definition of words - and another to have the mastery to use them fluidly and correctly in light of their meanings and connotations in written and spoken communication. I imagine that the East Asian intelligence premium on the verbal side of things relies upon the ability to memorize the word's precise dictionary definition without regard for the ability to apply this knowledge by using the word to the very ends of language itself (i.e., to communicate ideas to others so that they may understand them). The advantage therefore seems to be more a tolerance for tedium and monotony than the aptitude to use language effectively for the purpose of communication or persuasion.

    The people who think that Asians aren’t really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you’ll see.
     
    The East Asian intelligence premium over non-Hispanic whites is rather modest. My surmise is that the East Asian intelligence bell curve is flatter than that of non-Hispanic whites (i.e., distributions would show fewer morons and fewer genius). The flatter East Asian intelligence premium would probably yield what we see with our own eyes today - East Asian societies are more harmonious and suffer from less social pathology but also less significant innovation and creativity than Western societies. Who precisely was holding back the achievements of the Han Isaac Newton for centuries before contact with the West?

    And it's ridiculous to state that "there was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein" as support for the proposition that Jewish intellectual potential was latent until recent history (I hold that theoretical physics has much more in common with philosophy than engineering). There was Spinoza - a Sephardim - who is a serviceable analog for an Einstein in the former's time.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    My surmise is that the East Asian intelligence bell curve is flatter than that of non-Hispanic whites (i.e., distributions would show fewer morons and fewer genius). The flatter East Asian intelligence premium would probably yield what we see with our own eyes today – East Asian societies are more harmonious and suffer from less social pathology but also less significant innovation and creativity than Western societies.

    You are basically talking Finnish….

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289614000920

    Solving the puzzle of why Finns have the highest IQ, but one of the lowest number of Nobel prizes in Europe

    Finland has been noted to perform consistently very well in the international PISA assessments for many years, but it also has a relatively low per capita number of Nobel Prize winners. We draw upon a large body of proxy data and direct evidence, including the first ever use of RTs to calculate the Finnish IQ and the first ever use of the WAIS IV and PISA scores in the same capacity. Based on these data, we hypothesize that Finns perform so consistently well in PISA because they have a higher IQ overall than other European countries and exhibit a specialized slow life history strategy characterized by high Agreeableness and Conscientiousness, and low Psychoticism and Extraversion. Most of these traits predict educational success but all would suppress genius and creativity amongst this population.

    • Replies: @128
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Finland seems to produce a lot more F1 world champions per capita than Japan.

  169. @Jack D
    @Nona2

    The SAT nowadays releases past editions of their tests. They publish them in books, for anyone to buy. If Asians are preparing for tests by studying previous editions of the test, they are not "cheating". Nor does the College Board recycle the exact questions.

    I highly recommend to anyone that they should prepare for the SATs/ACTs by taking these past tests at home under simulated test conditions. This will accustom you to the types of questions that they like to ask, to the formats used, to the necessary pace, to the way that the SAT (especially) likes to try to trick you with "distractor" answers, etc. Both of my kids studied for the SAT in this exact way (and only in this way) and they both got very high scores (not that this prep was the only reason, but it was helpful). If there are questions that you get wrong, you have to figure out why you got them wrong and what you need to do in the future so that you don't get similar questions wrong on the actual test.

    If white people are too lazy to prep for the test in this obvious way, then they are also probably too lazy to study for their college exams. The SAT is supposed to predict freshman year college grades and so this probably only adds to their predictive value.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Jack, it may come as a surprise to you but I scored very, very well myself on the SAT before it was first molested by diversity but I think you’re missing major pieces of the puzzle here.

    These tests are supposed to be a measure of scholastic aptitude to identify students worthy by their intellectual gifts of further education, not feats of raw grinding ability, repetition, and tolerance for monotony.

    There is a world of difference between a bright American high school student with a good scholastic work ethic, rigor, and natural intellectual curiosity and a first generation Asian American subjected to what amounts to child abuse in the home for the sake of family honor. I do not believe that a race to the bottom, forcing American teens to compete with subjects of mental and psychological abuse for dwindling educational opportunities is a general benefit to the United States. I don’t think that it makes the United States more “competitive” globally, and I think that it does a lot to further fracture an already fractured polity.

    If East Asians and other newcomers are gobbling up outsized proportions of educational opportunities in the United States as a consequence of some arbitrage between the general American culture (even and including the culture of high achievement) and foreign abusive grinding practices foisted upon children I do not lay the blame at the feet of “lazy white American kids” as you do. I think a bright, studious American kid ought to be able to do his studies, play baseball, date girls, and have a shot at entry into an elite educational institution commensurate with his scholastic aptitude and talents. I think it is a tragedy and a crime if some East Asian mediocrity by comparison bests him as the result of cramming under pressure to feign higher scholastic aptitude.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    American universities long ago (back in the days when Jews and not Asians headed the ranks of the nerds) solved this problem not by getting rid of or remaking their admissions tests but by the expedient (which they still continue to use to this day) of "holistic admissions" whereby handsome athletic, personable white kids could be admitted in preference to misshapen, unathletic , overly studious Jews by counting admissions tests as just one factor in admissions and not the whole show. There's no need to remake the SAT to make it less Asian friendly because universities don't go by just SATs and they are already doing a fine job discriminating against Asians "holistically".

  170. @Bill P
    @Reg Cæsar

    I remember meeting a Chinese peasant kid who was as smart as a whip. The whole village was rooting for him, which is more than you can say about the typical American suburban high school. There are a lot of dumb Chinese peasants, but they all value intellectual achievement.

    BTW, Chinese peasants are some of the best people on earth. Humble, generous, strong, hardworking and stoic. You can't find much better human material to work with. Your typical UMC American is moral and physical scum in comparison.

    If I had a choice of whether to dine in a hovel in Hebei or a mcmansion in suburban DC I'd take the rancid mutton and sorghum liquor over the California wine and arugula without a second thought.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Jack D

    Honestly, baijiu is some pretty nasty stuff. It tastes like kerosene to me. I like lamb better than arugula (but if I am going to the trouble of traveling to the countryside, couldn’t they at least slaughter it fresh for me, preferably a young one?) and don’t mind eating in a (clean but humble) hovel but I would take a nice Napa Valley cab over Red Star any day of the week. I think it’s a real acquired tasted and I haven’t acquired it.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    Honestly, baijiu is some pretty nasty stuff. It tastes like kerosene to me. I like lamb better than arugula (but if I am going to the trouble of traveling to the countryside, couldn’t they at least slaughter it fresh for me, preferably a young one?) and don’t mind eating in a (clean but humble) hovel but I would take a nice Napa Valley cab over Red Star any day of the week. I think it’s a real acquired tasted and I haven’t acquired it.
     
    I have had Western friends who have lived some time in China teaching English.

    As it was explained to them, and then by them to me, the Chinese do not typically employ refrigeration to preserve foods, prizing instead the particular food's "freshness." Therefore unrefrigerated lamb primals a few days old are relatively "fresh" (howsoever adulterated by exposure to heat, flies, enzymatic breakdown, bacterial growth and the like, whereas the same meat refrigerated for a week without such exposure would not be considered "fresh."

    I'll leave it to your discretion to decide which is the more wholesome food to consume.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @Bill P
    @Jack D

    For a few kuai they'll kill a lamb and serve it freshly barbecued. Best mutton I ever had outside of Normandy was in a poor village in Hebei. Baijiu does taste like jet fuel, but it doesn't take much, and if you're in good company it's good fun.

  171. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if "trash" means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to "bleed off" into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.

    Replies: @black sea, @Mr. Anon, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Thomm

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if “trash” means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to “bleed off” into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.

    Jack, would you consider Messrs. Weinstein, Epstein and Madoff “Jewish Trash?” Or does their economic success redeem them in your eyes?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    "White trash" refers to a specific demographic of lower class individuals who tend to be lacking in education, have uncouth personal habits, etc. You might think of Jeffrey Skilling or Elizabeth Holmes or Aldrich Ames as despicable characters but you wouldn't call them "white trash".

  172. @Jack D
    @Mr. Anon

    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if "trash" means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to "bleed off" into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.

    Replies: @black sea, @Mr. Anon, @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Thomm

    Mr. Anon’s comments :

    Quantity : Very High

    Quality : Very Low

    Now, for the lesson : This is how you can tell that a commenter is obese. Their desire to substitute quality with quantity in their words carries over into their views regarding caloric intake, as well as their own BMI and body composition. Yes, it really is that easy to tell from a person’s comments alone.

    Therefore, Mr. Anon is not merely obese, but excessively and comically so. He happens to be extremely jealous of the fattest WWE wrestlers, since they have earned money and fame from being fat, which Mr. Anon is unable to do despite how much he coveted the privilege. That is why he hates it when people with vastly higher IQs than him nonetheless watched WWE (then WWF) in their youth. He is feeling left out, and feels entitled to the paycheck and viewership that someone like Akeem the African Dream (450 lbs) earned :

    Now, on the subject of ‘trash’ that Jack D correctly brought up, Mr. Anon is THE epitome of what we functional whites call ‘White Trashionalists’, since he is bereft of any of the human capital found in the 80% of whites that are part of the functional tier.

    The sheer accumulation of biomass (albeit of low quality) that Mr. Anon represents is an earth-shaking prospect.

  173. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    The recent declines aren’t as sharp as on the SAT, where the test was redone a couple of years ago, which messed up everybody except Asians.
     
    The original Scholastic Aptitude Test was essentially an IQ test until the late 1990s (MENSA accepts an SAT score by more or less dropping the final digit as a proxy IQ test). It reflected some aspirations to a genuine American meritocracy by standardizing a major credential for admission into elite Universities. You could imagine an Indiana farm boy taking the SAT back then, scoring highly, and winding up at a place like MIT. (I'm imagining here the fictional character of Dr. Sam Beckett from the 80s-90s television show Quantum Leap).

    Then, in the 1990s when "diversity" really got going, there was a move to "recenter" the SAT by resetting its median score to a lower standard (in other words, a substandard result of a combined 900 or so would be scored at 1000) to reflect the new demographics of the test-takers and the college bound during the period of great college inflation.

    Subsequently, there was outside pressure and resultant efforts to make the test more "wholistic" by introducing subjective factors into the test via a writing component. The subjective factors would be those most liable to gaming by the test taker emphasizing his or her diversity points in non-sequitur essay form, and by the use of expensive test preparation strategy courses by the wealthy.

    An SAT that can be more readily gamed by test preparation and strategy would seem to fall right within the wheelhouse of the Studyasian-children-of-Tigermoms population. I wonder (greatly suspect) whether the ability to cram and grind in preparation for the test accounts for the Asian score premiums that we now see. In such a case, it would behoove non-elite Whites to pressure the Institutions to return to the SAT as a pure IQ proxy, where the Asians' much more modest IQ premium would not yield such a significant advantage in elite admissions (and would be overwhelmed in absolute terms by the high scores of the significantly higher white population). After all, the Test was originated in order to test the candidate's aptitude for post-secondary learning, not the candidate's ability to devote countless hours to memorize questions and answers in order to feign greater scholastic aptitude than that which the candidate actually possesses. (I think it's rather evident that Asian cram artists seem to peak at the point of University admissions, and are rather rarely seen at the highest levels of intellectual fields in spite of their over-representation in elite educational institutions).

    Of course, this would serve the Universities' interests in quelling the outrage at their Asian rejection rates by granting to them an objective standard to support those rejections on the one hand; but of course on the other hand they'd get their diversity initiatives more knotted up and I'm not certain that elite Universities would prefer to admit more children of prole whites into their sanctum sanctorum of elite production. All of which is to say that they'd only allow it kicking and screaming and at the risk of losing tax exempt status for their endowment incomes.

    Replies: @Jack D

    I really don’t know what kind of hidden reserves of Indiana farm boys who would attend MIT if they could score better on a more g loaded SAT still exist. Even if he could, very often said farm boy would rather attend Indiana U. or Notre Dame or even community college, especially if his goal was to stay in Indiana and take over the family “farm” which nowadays is more like the family “agribusiness” or even if his goal is to practice engineering or law or medicine in Indianapolis. The IQ sorting has been going on for a couple of generations now and the ranks of the whites who would like to get a top 10 university type education and move to the big city and play in the big leagues of the meritocracy have been pretty well picked over.

    Keep in mind that the SAT is supposed to be a predictor of freshman college grades. Getting good grades in college requires not only high IQ but also a certain amount of diligence (Edison thought that diligence was even more important than genius) so making the test into more of a pure IQ test would tend to overpromote who were more smart than diligent. I am not aware of any studies that show that the current test overpromotes Asians because their test prepping (and maybe even test cheating although I think the extent of this is exaggerated around here) continues once they get to college. Studying hard for a test if the material does not come naturally to you and mastering said material as a result of such diligent effort is not “cheating”.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas Remote
    @Jack D


    I really don’t know what kind of hidden reserves of Indiana farm boys who would attend MIT if they could score better on a more g loaded SAT still exist.
     
    You've got to be kidding here, in light of the utter corruption of college admissions over the past few decades in service of the twin ills of diversity and legacy. The bright prole white Indiana farm boy is squeezed between the unearned advantages inuring to the extant ethnic spoils system on the one hand, and the inside tracks for the connected on the other. Harvard is roughly the same size as it was in 1950, but there's now twice as many Americans, the University admits vastly more foreigners, and prefers racial and ethnic minorities and females over the Indiana farm boy as a matter of stated policy. Elite institutions are leaving rough diamonds all over the place, because excellence is no longer the end (to the extent it ever was).

    Keep in mind that the SAT is supposed to be a predictor of freshman college grades. Getting good grades in college requires not only high IQ but also a certain amount of diligence (Edison thought that diligence was even more important than genius) so making the test into more of a pure IQ test would tend to overpromote who were more smart than diligent.
     
    Diligence is much less rare than raw intelligence, and at the far right tail of the intelligence distribution is from whence excellence comes. I'd prefer if truly elite institutions set about to locate brilliance and developed its full potential rather than prizing candidates who are really good at homework. (As remarked by Sailer, Edison subcontracted out a lot of his diligence).
  174. @Jack D
    @Bill P

    Honestly, baijiu is some pretty nasty stuff. It tastes like kerosene to me. I like lamb better than arugula (but if I am going to the trouble of traveling to the countryside, couldn't they at least slaughter it fresh for me, preferably a young one?) and don't mind eating in a (clean but humble) hovel but I would take a nice Napa Valley cab over Red Star any day of the week. I think it's a real acquired tasted and I haven't acquired it.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Bill P

    Honestly, baijiu is some pretty nasty stuff. It tastes like kerosene to me. I like lamb better than arugula (but if I am going to the trouble of traveling to the countryside, couldn’t they at least slaughter it fresh for me, preferably a young one?) and don’t mind eating in a (clean but humble) hovel but I would take a nice Napa Valley cab over Red Star any day of the week. I think it’s a real acquired tasted and I haven’t acquired it.

    I have had Western friends who have lived some time in China teaching English.

    As it was explained to them, and then by them to me, the Chinese do not typically employ refrigeration to preserve foods, prizing instead the particular food’s “freshness.” Therefore unrefrigerated lamb primals a few days old are relatively “fresh” (howsoever adulterated by exposure to heat, flies, enzymatic breakdown, bacterial growth and the like, whereas the same meat refrigerated for a week without such exposure would not be considered “fresh.”

    I’ll leave it to your discretion to decide which is the more wholesome food to consume.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Putting aside the lack of refrigeration (it was pretty shocking to me to see Chinese markets where the meat just sat out on the counter without refrigeration - they did usually have some kind of fan gizmo blowing to keep the flies off), meat really benefits from a bit of hanging or aging and should not be eaten immediately after slaughter. The enzymatic breakdown actually contributes to flavor and tenderness.

    As for bacterial growth, Chinese cooking generally involves cutting meat into small bits so that the heat of the wok permeates them and then serving said meat right away, directly from the stove or grill to the table. One of the most dangerous aspects of Western restaurant kitchens is "cook and hold" , where a dish is partially or fully cooked hours (or sometimes days) in advance and then reheated a little (or even served cold) just before service. This give bacterial counts ample time to grow exponentially. The Western preference for large cuts of rare meat doesn't help either. The Chinese have been cooking without refrigeration for 5,000+ years and they have it pretty well figured out.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

  175. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D

    I did not propose that any particular document is probative of anything.

    The combined Asian test scores include the scores of foreign test takers (i.e. Chinese) who take the tests overseas (in China) after the tests are administered in the United States, yes? If the CCP is using international espionage techniques in order to acquire tests, and to then tip its own agents off to the questions and answers so that they are highly competitive applicants at, inter alia, Universities which do valuable research applicable to defense and general technological innovation, that's an issue to me.

    Additionally, it may not be direct evidence of cheating itself but the Tigermom culture Asian edition is shame based, where the ultimate sin is to bring shame upon one's family by performing poorly in an academic context. Ergo, there is a cultural incentive to cram, but also to attempt to cheat if cramming can't suffice to yield the honorable outcomes. Of course, it's always murky when cheating scandals are uncovered since the identities of the minor participants are rarely if ever reported so we just won't know if we're talking about a bunch of Wangs and Chens.

    Replies: @128, @Bardon Kaldian

    I think the people in this blog are being unfair and petty in maligning whites for being lazier than East Asians and unwilling to do grind work, I mean would people in this blog malign whites for not being as fast in running as blacks? Keep in mind the Europeans peasants came from an environment where the sun lasted a lot shorter in the day except for summer, due to Europe’s northerly latitude (Beijing which was at the very northernmost end of historical Chinese civilization has the same latitude as Salerno, Kyoto has a more southerly latitude and Seoul has the same latitude as Seville), and compared to Han Chinese, Koreans, or Japanese, Europeans grew wheat, which required a lot less work than rice to grow the equivalent amount of food. Also according to medieval records, when wages rose, European peasants choose to work less in order to get the same amount of income, rather than work more for more income, also in medieval Europe peasants worked only 150 days a year, with the rest of the year being religious holidays and feast days, so working less hours may just have been genetically involved in them. So maybe the historical emphasis for Europeans was working smarter over working harder, or maybe the short growing season plus planting wheat instead of rice meant that genetically, Europeans are just not suited for working 14 hours a day 300 days a year, unlike Chinese, Koreans, or Japanese. And based on this (the Maddison Project) Western Europe had a substantially higher per capita GDP than East Asia did during the Middle Ages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @128

    Good list. Also, Europeans were less up against the Malthusian ceiling than the Chinese due to later marriage: about age 25 for women on average in England between 1200 and 1800 versus about age 18 in China. So population pressure was more intense in China than in Europe, where people had more chances to relax without famine impinging.

  176. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    Your question is snarky and not really intended to elicit a serious reply, but if “trash” means a group of low IQ, lower class individuals who breed with each other and thus continue their low IQ group into further generations, I would say that the answer is no. Generally speaking, low IQ Jews tend to “bleed off” into the general (non-Jewish) population and regression toward the mean makes it difficult to get a real breeding population of low IQ Jews going anyway.
     
    Jack, would you consider Messrs. Weinstein, Epstein and Madoff "Jewish Trash?" Or does their economic success redeem them in your eyes?

    Replies: @Jack D

    “White trash” refers to a specific demographic of lower class individuals who tend to be lacking in education, have uncouth personal habits, etc. You might think of Jeffrey Skilling or Elizabeth Holmes or Aldrich Ames as despicable characters but you wouldn’t call them “white trash”.

  177. @128
    Well the College Board and universities get a lot of their funding from foreign students , why would they do something that will jeopardize their revenue source? As for the math Olympiads vs. spelling bees, I notice that Indian Americans are basically absent in the US math Olympiad contestants, where as East Asians are basically absent at the spelling bees, now considering how good Indians are with computer science and programming which is closely closely related to math skills, that may just mean that East Asians are just not interested in spelling bees and Indians just less math Olympiads as a pointless waste of time, rather than their lack of participation showing a lack of IQ.

    Replies: @Spangel

    “As for the math Olympiads vs. spelling bees, I notice that Indian Americans are basically absent in the US math Olympiad contestants”

    That’s not in the least bit accurate. The site below lists US math olympiad contestants-

    https://www.imo-official.org/country_individual_r.aspx?code=USA&column=year&order=desc

    In the last 5 years, gopal goel, adam adreishar, Mihir Anand Singhal, Ankan Bhattacharya, Ashwin Sah and Shyam Narayanan were on the US math olympiad team. This makes them perhaps 4 or 5 times more prevalent as whites but still far less prevalent than East Asians on the American team.

    It is difficult to explain how south asians can be so much more represented in the US math olympiad team given the extent to which whites outnumber them and the overall IQ of south Asia. It should all but impossible for there to be that many more south asians than whites at the far right tail of math ability. Really, it’s strange given that south asians are indo-aryan and indiginous south asian, the former group being perhaps equal in IQ to modern whites and the latter group seemingly being lower, given what we know of pure indiginous SA populations. But it is what it is. Evidently, the ability to increase group IQ through endogamous marriage is something that can be done relatively quickly and to an astounding extent.

    • Replies: @ABCStar
    @Spangel

    Interestingly, Indians seem to do well in science.42 percent of STS finalists are indian.

    https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2020/01/23/nine-indian-origin-teens-among-2020-regeneron-science-talent-search-finalists-439979/

  178. @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”
     
    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #'s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.

    The people who think that Asians aren't really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you'll see.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @YetAnotherAnon, @PiltdownMan

    The point I failed to get over is that while the US may throw money and prestige at lawyers and hedge fund people, in Japan and China prestige is directed at engineers – the people who actually get stuff done.

    Chinese high-speed rail really redefines “first-world”. They have more of it than the rest of the world put together. I get a 1950s/60s USA vibe, or maybe the Victorian Britain of Brunel.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Chinese high speed rail is a bottomless money pit and the only line that justifies its investment is the Beijing to Shanghai line.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

  179. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)


    My surmise is that the East Asian intelligence bell curve is flatter than that of non-Hispanic whites (i.e., distributions would show fewer morons and fewer genius). The flatter East Asian intelligence premium would probably yield what we see with our own eyes today – East Asian societies are more harmonious and suffer from less social pathology but also less significant innovation and creativity than Western societies.
     
    You are basically talking Finnish....

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160289614000920

    Solving the puzzle of why Finns have the highest IQ, but one of the lowest number of Nobel prizes in Europe

    Finland has been noted to perform consistently very well in the international PISA assessments for many years, but it also has a relatively low per capita number of Nobel Prize winners. We draw upon a large body of proxy data and direct evidence, including the first ever use of RTs to calculate the Finnish IQ and the first ever use of the WAIS IV and PISA scores in the same capacity. Based on these data, we hypothesize that Finns perform so consistently well in PISA because they have a higher IQ overall than other European countries and exhibit a specialized slow life history strategy characterized by high Agreeableness and Conscientiousness, and low Psychoticism and Extraversion. Most of these traits predict educational success but all would suppress genius and creativity amongst this population.

    Replies: @128

    Finland seems to produce a lot more F1 world champions per capita than Japan.

  180. @128
    I guess the puzzle is why ancient Chinese math was relatively less advanced than ancient Greek or Indian math, relative to their inventions, whereas the ancient Indians were a lot more advanced than the Chinese in the theoretical areas, but were basically zero in terms of applications. People may reason that theoretical pie in the sky mathematical treatises are a lot less useful in the real world than practical inventions, but then theoretical math can be very useful in real world applications. But then the puzzle is that spatial advantages, rather than verbal advantages, are supposed to be helpful in math, but then the Chinese have a spatial advantage , but then were behind in math compared to Greek, Indians, or even Sumerians, who are supposed to be at a disadvantage in math compared to East Asians because of relatively weak spatial abilities compared to verbal IQ? Or maybe verbal IQ contributes to mathematical abilities a lot stronger than what we know so far?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    Or maybe verbal IQ contributes to mathematical abilities a lot stronger than what we know so far?

    Or maybe the IQ stuff is, when it comes to the genius-type achievement, no more than phlogiston or snake oil?

    • Replies: @128
    @Bardon Kaldian

    No, question is why if spatial abilities are connected to mathematical abilities, why are most of the mathematical contributions in the pre modern era made by Europeans, Caucasians, or people who are descended from both?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  181. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D

    Jack, it may come as a surprise to you but I scored very, very well myself on the SAT before it was first molested by diversity but I think you're missing major pieces of the puzzle here.

    These tests are supposed to be a measure of scholastic aptitude to identify students worthy by their intellectual gifts of further education, not feats of raw grinding ability, repetition, and tolerance for monotony.

    There is a world of difference between a bright American high school student with a good scholastic work ethic, rigor, and natural intellectual curiosity and a first generation Asian American subjected to what amounts to child abuse in the home for the sake of family honor. I do not believe that a race to the bottom, forcing American teens to compete with subjects of mental and psychological abuse for dwindling educational opportunities is a general benefit to the United States. I don't think that it makes the United States more "competitive" globally, and I think that it does a lot to further fracture an already fractured polity.

    If East Asians and other newcomers are gobbling up outsized proportions of educational opportunities in the United States as a consequence of some arbitrage between the general American culture (even and including the culture of high achievement) and foreign abusive grinding practices foisted upon children I do not lay the blame at the feet of "lazy white American kids" as you do. I think a bright, studious American kid ought to be able to do his studies, play baseball, date girls, and have a shot at entry into an elite educational institution commensurate with his scholastic aptitude and talents. I think it is a tragedy and a crime if some East Asian mediocrity by comparison bests him as the result of cramming under pressure to feign higher scholastic aptitude.

    Replies: @Jack D

    American universities long ago (back in the days when Jews and not Asians headed the ranks of the nerds) solved this problem not by getting rid of or remaking their admissions tests but by the expedient (which they still continue to use to this day) of “holistic admissions” whereby handsome athletic, personable white kids could be admitted in preference to misshapen, unathletic , overly studious Jews by counting admissions tests as just one factor in admissions and not the whole show. There’s no need to remake the SAT to make it less Asian friendly because universities don’t go by just SATs and they are already doing a fine job discriminating against Asians “holistically”.

  182. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D

    I did not propose that any particular document is probative of anything.

    The combined Asian test scores include the scores of foreign test takers (i.e. Chinese) who take the tests overseas (in China) after the tests are administered in the United States, yes? If the CCP is using international espionage techniques in order to acquire tests, and to then tip its own agents off to the questions and answers so that they are highly competitive applicants at, inter alia, Universities which do valuable research applicable to defense and general technological innovation, that's an issue to me.

    Additionally, it may not be direct evidence of cheating itself but the Tigermom culture Asian edition is shame based, where the ultimate sin is to bring shame upon one's family by performing poorly in an academic context. Ergo, there is a cultural incentive to cram, but also to attempt to cheat if cramming can't suffice to yield the honorable outcomes. Of course, it's always murky when cheating scandals are uncovered since the identities of the minor participants are rarely if ever reported so we just won't know if we're talking about a bunch of Wangs and Chens.

    Replies: @128, @Bardon Kaldian

    While they probably cheat at higher rates, I would take this more seriously ….

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/chinese-science/

    Chinese Science

    Total spending on R&D in China (as a percentage of GDP) more than doubled from 0.9% in 2000 to 2.1% in 2016… China’s share of high-impact academic publications (the top 0.1% of papers in Scopus, which rates by citations) has grown, from less than 1% in 1997 to about 20% in 2016.
    ……………………..

    Now yes, Chinese papers have a reputation for shoddiness, being worse on average than Western ones, but absolute values do matter, and quality is rapidly improving anyway.

    Incidentally, this is confirmed by China’s performance on Nature’s WFC index, where it rose from 24% of the US level in 2013 to 40% in 2016, and 46% as of just the Oct 2016-Sep 2017 period.

  183. @Jack D
    @Bill P

    Honestly, baijiu is some pretty nasty stuff. It tastes like kerosene to me. I like lamb better than arugula (but if I am going to the trouble of traveling to the countryside, couldn't they at least slaughter it fresh for me, preferably a young one?) and don't mind eating in a (clean but humble) hovel but I would take a nice Napa Valley cab over Red Star any day of the week. I think it's a real acquired tasted and I haven't acquired it.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @Bill P

    For a few kuai they’ll kill a lamb and serve it freshly barbecued. Best mutton I ever had outside of Normandy was in a poor village in Hebei. Baijiu does taste like jet fuel, but it doesn’t take much, and if you’re in good company it’s good fun.

  184. @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I really don't know what kind of hidden reserves of Indiana farm boys who would attend MIT if they could score better on a more g loaded SAT still exist. Even if he could, very often said farm boy would rather attend Indiana U. or Notre Dame or even community college, especially if his goal was to stay in Indiana and take over the family "farm" which nowadays is more like the family "agribusiness" or even if his goal is to practice engineering or law or medicine in Indianapolis. The IQ sorting has been going on for a couple of generations now and the ranks of the whites who would like to get a top 10 university type education and move to the big city and play in the big leagues of the meritocracy have been pretty well picked over.

    Keep in mind that the SAT is supposed to be a predictor of freshman college grades. Getting good grades in college requires not only high IQ but also a certain amount of diligence (Edison thought that diligence was even more important than genius) so making the test into more of a pure IQ test would tend to overpromote who were more smart than diligent. I am not aware of any studies that show that the current test overpromotes Asians because their test prepping (and maybe even test cheating although I think the extent of this is exaggerated around here) continues once they get to college. Studying hard for a test if the material does not come naturally to you and mastering said material as a result of such diligent effort is not "cheating".

    Replies: @Alec Leamas Remote

    I really don’t know what kind of hidden reserves of Indiana farm boys who would attend MIT if they could score better on a more g loaded SAT still exist.

    You’ve got to be kidding here, in light of the utter corruption of college admissions over the past few decades in service of the twin ills of diversity and legacy. The bright prole white Indiana farm boy is squeezed between the unearned advantages inuring to the extant ethnic spoils system on the one hand, and the inside tracks for the connected on the other. Harvard is roughly the same size as it was in 1950, but there’s now twice as many Americans, the University admits vastly more foreigners, and prefers racial and ethnic minorities and females over the Indiana farm boy as a matter of stated policy. Elite institutions are leaving rough diamonds all over the place, because excellence is no longer the end (to the extent it ever was).

    Keep in mind that the SAT is supposed to be a predictor of freshman college grades. Getting good grades in college requires not only high IQ but also a certain amount of diligence (Edison thought that diligence was even more important than genius) so making the test into more of a pure IQ test would tend to overpromote who were more smart than diligent.

    Diligence is much less rare than raw intelligence, and at the far right tail of the intelligence distribution is from whence excellence comes. I’d prefer if truly elite institutions set about to locate brilliance and developed its full potential rather than prizing candidates who are really good at homework. (As remarked by Sailer, Edison subcontracted out a lot of his diligence).

  185. @128
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I think the people in this blog are being unfair and petty in maligning whites for being lazier than East Asians and unwilling to do grind work, I mean would people in this blog malign whites for not being as fast in running as blacks? Keep in mind the Europeans peasants came from an environment where the sun lasted a lot shorter in the day except for summer, due to Europe's northerly latitude (Beijing which was at the very northernmost end of historical Chinese civilization has the same latitude as Salerno, Kyoto has a more southerly latitude and Seoul has the same latitude as Seville), and compared to Han Chinese, Koreans, or Japanese, Europeans grew wheat, which required a lot less work than rice to grow the equivalent amount of food. Also according to medieval records, when wages rose, European peasants choose to work less in order to get the same amount of income, rather than work more for more income, also in medieval Europe peasants worked only 150 days a year, with the rest of the year being religious holidays and feast days, so working less hours may just have been genetically involved in them. So maybe the historical emphasis for Europeans was working smarter over working harder, or maybe the short growing season plus planting wheat instead of rice meant that genetically, Europeans are just not suited for working 14 hours a day 300 days a year, unlike Chinese, Koreans, or Japanese. And based on this (the Maddison Project) Western Europe had a substantially higher per capita GDP than East Asia did during the Middle Ages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Good list. Also, Europeans were less up against the Malthusian ceiling than the Chinese due to later marriage: about age 25 for women on average in England between 1200 and 1800 versus about age 18 in China. So population pressure was more intense in China than in Europe, where people had more chances to relax without famine impinging.

  186. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    Honestly, baijiu is some pretty nasty stuff. It tastes like kerosene to me. I like lamb better than arugula (but if I am going to the trouble of traveling to the countryside, couldn’t they at least slaughter it fresh for me, preferably a young one?) and don’t mind eating in a (clean but humble) hovel but I would take a nice Napa Valley cab over Red Star any day of the week. I think it’s a real acquired tasted and I haven’t acquired it.
     
    I have had Western friends who have lived some time in China teaching English.

    As it was explained to them, and then by them to me, the Chinese do not typically employ refrigeration to preserve foods, prizing instead the particular food's "freshness." Therefore unrefrigerated lamb primals a few days old are relatively "fresh" (howsoever adulterated by exposure to heat, flies, enzymatic breakdown, bacterial growth and the like, whereas the same meat refrigerated for a week without such exposure would not be considered "fresh."

    I'll leave it to your discretion to decide which is the more wholesome food to consume.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Putting aside the lack of refrigeration (it was pretty shocking to me to see Chinese markets where the meat just sat out on the counter without refrigeration – they did usually have some kind of fan gizmo blowing to keep the flies off), meat really benefits from a bit of hanging or aging and should not be eaten immediately after slaughter. The enzymatic breakdown actually contributes to flavor and tenderness.

    As for bacterial growth, Chinese cooking generally involves cutting meat into small bits so that the heat of the wok permeates them and then serving said meat right away, directly from the stove or grill to the table. One of the most dangerous aspects of Western restaurant kitchens is “cook and hold” , where a dish is partially or fully cooked hours (or sometimes days) in advance and then reheated a little (or even served cold) just before service. This give bacterial counts ample time to grow exponentially. The Western preference for large cuts of rare meat doesn’t help either. The Chinese have been cooking without refrigeration for 5,000+ years and they have it pretty well figured out.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)
    @Jack D


    Putting aside the lack of refrigeration (it was pretty shocking to me to see Chinese markets where the meat just sat out on the counter without refrigeration – they did usually have some kind of fan gizmo blowing to keep the flies off), meat really benefits from a bit of hanging or aging and should not be eaten immediately after slaughter. The enzymatic breakdown actually contributes to flavor and tenderness.
     
    It is true that certain meats including beef and lamb benefit in flavor and texture greatly from hanging, but hanging must be done at a low temperature to inhibit bacterial growth and excess enzymatic activity that spoils rather than improves the meat.
  187. @Jack D
    @YetAnotherAnon


    Why isn’t there extreme demand for Asian or East Asian lawyers?”
     
    I think it is fairly well understood (colloquially if not scientifically, if only because scientific study of racial characteristics is more or less taboo nowadays) that E. Asian strength is in the mathematical with weaker verbal skills while Jews tend to be strong verbally with weaker spatial skills. These are both relative #'s and both groups would tend to be above average in all areas. IQ scores are a composite of both verbal and non-verbal tasks so two people or groups can both have the same full scale IQ scores while having different strengths and weaknesses on the subtests.

    The people who think that Asians aren't really that smart or creative or that their high scores are only from cheating are just whistling past the graveyard. Asian high performance is not going away and is only getting stronger and stronger. Maybe not all 4.5 billion Asians are brilliant but if you took say the top 200 million of them (equal to the total # of non-Hispanic whites in America) they would beat the pants off of American whites and that is in fact what is happening, both in the US among immigrants and in their home countries. The fact that there is no Asian Isaac Newton is a relic of the past. There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either. Come back a century or two from now and you'll see.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work), @YetAnotherAnon, @PiltdownMan

    There was no Jewish Isaac Newton until Einstein either.

    Yes, but there was a Jewish Jacobi, and he easily ranks, albeit as a mathematician, and not a physicist, alongside a Newton, Einstein (or perhaps a Gauss.) J.J. Sylvester, Kronecker and Cantor would rank just a slight bit below that level of genius.

    Mathematics is the relevant field one needs to look at. Classical physics developed greatly under Newton, and then again in the 19th century, but progress in mathematics has been more or less steady over the course of the last millennium, and there have been many Jewish mathematicians of note until the great explosion in both fields in the late 19th century, after which Jewish mathematicians have been disproportionately dominant in that field, far more so than in physics.

    More recently, a quarter of all the Fields medals and a third of all the Abel prizes have been awarded to mathematicians who are Jewish.

  188. @Anonymous
    A good macro global test for all peoples of the world is SEAFARING.

    It's a challenge that is distributed relatively equally across the planet excepting landlocked peoples of course.

    And so we can examine the Asian contributions and influence on the subject.

    Sorry. Asians lag in the seafaring endeavor. All aspects of it. Not saying they're absolutely dead in the water but they sorely lag.

    The entire history of SEAFARING is a massive global problem solving continuum. And we know who has led the way. We know who has had the most influence by far.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Eagle Eye, @Rahan

    A good macro global test for all peoples of the world is SEAFARING.

    Traditionally the world is divided into:
    1) Sea Empires
    2) Land Empires

    The US inherited from Britain the mantle of a sea empire. Russia and China have always been land empires. The Vikings were sea-farers. The ancient Egyptians and Romans–not so much.

    One imagines a proto-viking explaining to a Mesopotamian that they can never have a successful civilization if they don’t sail to Greenland on a longboat.

    Russia, BTW, reached space first, in spite of being a land empire.

    Likewise, sea empires encourage the appearance of “scientific racism” of genocidal proportions far more than land empires (where things remain on the normal level of basic xenophobia; modern leftists like to confuse the two). Land empires incorporate neighbors as they expand, and tend to provide special status to the conquered titular nations, and start aristocracy-interbreeding programs. Whereas the sea empires can convince themselves the far off natives aren’t really human, and if they screw everything up, simply hop on a ship and leave.

    Hitler tried to apply Western sea empire logic to his land expansion into the Slavic east, once the German dream of being allowed into the proper colonial game expired.

    After the collapse of the USSR, Russia tried a number of times to “merge” with Europe and thus create a workable fusion of sea empire and land empire civilizations. The extended hand was not taken. Now’re the world is back to the old Great Game between sea empires and land empires once more.

    Nations built by Eurasian tyrants vs nations built by pirates and privateers. The latter quite taken over by a certain desert nation.

    Last but not least, just a curio for those who collect such: the Khazar Jews financed the Viking pillaging of Western Christianity when that was happening.

    The pagan nordic pirates were encouraged and financed to attack western Christianity by Khazar Jewish princes. This was the “investment” that made that business model possible. Almost impossible to find mention of this outside of very specialized literature.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Rahan


    The pagan nordic pirates were encouraged and financed to attack western Christianity by Khazar Jewish princes. .... Almost impossible to find mention of this outside of very specialized literature.
     
    I'll bet it's impossible because it didn't f'ing happen.
  189. @Calvin Hobbes
    @Jack D


    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):
    ...
    They haven’t changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven’t changed the photo.
     
    They used to send out a newsletter with pictures of all the latest qualifiers. Maybe they still do. The last one I saw was maybe 5 years ago. Yeah, lots of Asians (probably mostly Asians), and I don’t remember any blacks.

    The Mathematical Association of America has contests for various grade levels, like AMC 8 (for 8th grade and below), AMC 10 (for 10th grade and below), and AMC 12 (for 12th grade and below), and several others (AIME, USAMO). They used to have a web page showing the pictures of all the students who got perfect scores on the AMC tests. No more, maybe partly because of me. I would post comments (elsewhere) with links to those pages, saying, “Look at all the Asians, and note that there aren’t any blacks”.

    You can still see lists of names here:

    https://amc-reg.maa.org/reports/generalreports.aspx

    Asian dominance of MATHCOUNTS (math contest for grades 6-8) is extreme:

    https://www.mathcounts.org/sites/default/files/2019%20National%20Final%20Standings_0.pdf

    Those are the names of the students who scored in the top quarter.

    I went to the MATHCOUNTS national competition several times. I don’t think there were ever any blacks on any of the 50 state teams. One year at least there were blacks on the team from the Virgin Islands (and they didn’t score in the top quarter).

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Jaedon Whyte USAJMO winner 10th grade and below

    https://www.maa.org/news/top-high-school-math-olympians-announced-by-maa-american-mathematics-competitions-0

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    He looks smart.

    Replies: @Anon, @Truth

    , @Spangel
    @Anonymous

    Well God bless him and I hope that puberty does not lead him astray.


    BTW, from that link:

    The winners of the United States of America Junior Mathematical Olympiad (USAJMO), who are the top MAA American Mathematics Competitions students in 10th grade and below were also announced June 3, 2019. They are Adithya Balachandran, Kevin Cong, Rishabh Das, Benjamin Epstein, Justin Lee, Huaye Jeffrey Lin, Daniel Park, Eric Shen, Noah Walsh, Jaedon Whyte, Eric Yang, and George Zhang."

    Park is the third most common last name in Korea, so Daniel Park is probably Korean. That leaves Noah Walsh as the only kid who could be a white gentile that topped the USAJMO competition. And even then, Noah is often a name for Jewish kids, so maybe he is part Jewish. Given the overall proportion of black kids to white gentile kids, this means that in the 2019 USAJMO, blacks were more likely to win the USAJMO than white gentiles.

  190. @Steve Richter
    Is there evidence of Asian achievement gap in work place? Asians have been killing it in terms of attendance at NYC elite public schools for decades now. Where are the tech startups they went on to start? Hedge funds running on the algorithms they devised? Which of the emerging covid vaccines and treatments have been pioneered by Asian SAT high scorers?

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Anon, @1661er

    Where are the tech startups they went on to start?

    Sun Microsystem
    Yahoo!
    Nvidia
    DoorDash
    Instacart
    Robinhood
    Credit Karma
    One Medical
    etc.

    If you include people who were disenchanted by the treatment they received in the US and found companies elsewhere:
    TSMC
    SoftBank

  191. Anon[123] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    Affirmative Action is like the indulgent parent who makes the strong kid stronger and the weak kid weaker. Asian kids know it is the hardest for them to get into top colleges so they work the hardest. What we need to do is reverse the AA: make it the easiest for Asians to get into college and the hardest for blacks, et voila! In five years blacks will be the highest scoring group and Asians will be the lowest. Psych 101, people.

    Replies: @Anon

    Affirmative Action is like the indulgent parent who makes the strong kid stronger and the weak kid weaker. Asian kids know it is the hardest for them to get into top colleges so they work the hardest. What we need to do is reverse the AA: make it the easiest for Asians to get into college and the hardest for blacks, et voila! In five years blacks will be the highest scoring group and Asians will be the lowest. Psych 101, people.

    On the other hand, Psych 201 is the what geneticists call the “nature of nurture.”

    Your “environment” is about 50 percent genetically determined. Plomin has a whole chapter on it, but for instance:

    For example, evidence for genetic influence has been found for home environments such as chaotic family environments, for classroom environments such as supportive teachers, peer characteristics such as being bullied, neighbourhood safety, being exposed to drugs, work environments and the quality of one’s marriage. Results showing genetic influence are not limited to the classic twin design. They also emerged from studies of twins reared apart, other adoption designs and, most recently, from DNA studies. Characteristics of adolescents’ peer groups are especially highly heritable, such as the peer group’s academic orientation or their delinquency. The reason for this high heritability may be that you can choose your friends but you cannot choose your family…

    Plomin invented this idea and a chapter of his book is about it. Hundreds of studies have been done to confirm and replicate it. Think about it: how much acting out happens in your school classes and how helpful your teachers are to you is substantially determined by your genome. Get your head around that concept. Counterintuitive, but it’s true.

    Kevin Mitchell in his book points out that brains continue to develop through adolescence, and thus “environmental” factors are reflected in organic brain structure.

    Far from flattening out or overwriting initial differences, our experiences thus tend to consolidate them instead.

    Asians study because they are good at it to begin with, they see progress and are gratified by it, and doing it makes them better and better at it. Blacks on average study less because they are not as good at it to begin with, they don’t see so much progress, it’s hard and frustrating, and their avoidance of it thus leaves them more and more behind.

  192. @Rahan
    @Anonymous


    A good macro global test for all peoples of the world is SEAFARING.
     
    Traditionally the world is divided into:
    1) Sea Empires
    2) Land Empires

    The US inherited from Britain the mantle of a sea empire. Russia and China have always been land empires. The Vikings were sea-farers. The ancient Egyptians and Romans--not so much.

    One imagines a proto-viking explaining to a Mesopotamian that they can never have a successful civilization if they don't sail to Greenland on a longboat.

    Russia, BTW, reached space first, in spite of being a land empire.

    Likewise, sea empires encourage the appearance of "scientific racism" of genocidal proportions far more than land empires (where things remain on the normal level of basic xenophobia; modern leftists like to confuse the two). Land empires incorporate neighbors as they expand, and tend to provide special status to the conquered titular nations, and start aristocracy-interbreeding programs. Whereas the sea empires can convince themselves the far off natives aren't really human, and if they screw everything up, simply hop on a ship and leave.

    Hitler tried to apply Western sea empire logic to his land expansion into the Slavic east, once the German dream of being allowed into the proper colonial game expired.

    After the collapse of the USSR, Russia tried a number of times to "merge" with Europe and thus create a workable fusion of sea empire and land empire civilizations. The extended hand was not taken. Now're the world is back to the old Great Game between sea empires and land empires once more.

    Nations built by Eurasian tyrants vs nations built by pirates and privateers. The latter quite taken over by a certain desert nation.

    Last but not least, just a curio for those who collect such: the Khazar Jews financed the Viking pillaging of Western Christianity when that was happening.

    The pagan nordic pirates were encouraged and financed to attack western Christianity by Khazar Jewish princes. This was the "investment" that made that business model possible. Almost impossible to find mention of this outside of very specialized literature.

    Replies: @Jack D

    The pagan nordic pirates were encouraged and financed to attack western Christianity by Khazar Jewish princes. …. Almost impossible to find mention of this outside of very specialized literature.

    I’ll bet it’s impossible because it didn’t f’ing happen.

  193. @Anonymous
    @Calvin Hobbes

    Jaedon Whyte USAJMO winner 10th grade and below

    https://www.maa.org/news/top-high-school-math-olympians-announced-by-maa-american-mathematics-competitions-0

    https://twitter.com/Doral_Academy/status/834859079084494850?s=20

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel

    He looks smart.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Steve Sailer


    He looks smart.
     
    Smart? What he looks is tall. He's gotta be a foot and a half taller than his dad.

    But seriously, you cannot discount the "noose" possibility:

    Tiffany Liu, studied at Shanghai American School, Answered December 31, 2016

    In my junior year, both of the scores from the two SAT tests I took were cancelled for everyone due to mass cheating, as collegeboard claimed.

    There's known to be a specific Korean SAT cram school in our area that the Korean students at my high school often attended over the weekends, and they tend to test their students with old SAT tests from previous years that they'd somehow obtained elsewhere from the official website.

    Apparently, collegeboard recycles most of their SAT tests and as a result, those two tests had the exact same content as one of the practice tests those select Korean students had taken before. After the tests were sent back and graded, number of people far beyond the estimated average turned out to have perfect scores.

    Initially, collegeboard asked our school to cough up a list of the kids who attended the cram school ... but in the end they cancelled everyone's scores ...

    Considering the first ever two SAT tests I took (ironically, I took the second one shortly after because the first one was cancelled) both ended in that same fashion, I'd say the chances of something like this happening are actually pretty common.
     
    , @Truth
    @Steve Sailer

    How about Dilian Whyte?

    https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article20811643.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/0_Dillian-Whyte-File-Photo.jpg

  194. @YetAnotherAnon
    @Jack D

    The point I failed to get over is that while the US may throw money and prestige at lawyers and hedge fund people, in Japan and China prestige is directed at engineers - the people who actually get stuff done.

    Chinese high-speed rail really redefines "first-world". They have more of it than the rest of the world put together. I get a 1950s/60s USA vibe, or maybe the Victorian Britain of Brunel.

    https://www.chinadiscovery.com/assets/images/Train/maps/china-high-speed-rail-map.jpg

    Replies: @Znzn

    Chinese high speed rail is a bottomless money pit and the only line that justifies its investment is the Beijing to Shanghai line.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    @Znzn

    "Chinese high speed rail is a bottomless money pit"

    Fortunately China has a bottomless money supply, much of it coming from Western consumers.

    "the only line that justifies its investment is the Beijing to Shanghai line"

    A lot of UK railway lines lost money for the developers too, in mid-Victorian times, but it still transformed communications and economies.


    They crept along towards a point in the expanse of shade just at hand at which a feeble light was beginning to assert its presence, a spot where, by day, a fitful white streak of steam at intervals upon the dark green background denoted intermittent moments of contact between their secluded world and modern life. Modern life stretched out its steam feeler to this point three or four times a day, touched the native existences, and quickly withdrew its feeler again, as if what it touched had been uncongenial.

    They reached the feeble light, which came from the smoky lamp of a little railway station; a poor enough terrestrial star, yet in one sense of more importance to Talbothays Dairy and mankind than the celestial ones to which it stood in such humiliating contrast. The cans of new milk were unladen in the rain, Tess getting a little shelter from a neighbouring holly tree.

    Then there was the hissing of a train, which drew up almost silently upon the wet rails, and the milk was rapidly swung can by can into the truck. The light of the engine flashed for a second upon Tess Durbeyfield’s figure, motionless under the great holly tree. No object could have looked more foreign to the gleaming cranks and wheels than this unsophisticated girl, with the round bare arms, the rainy face and hair, the suspended attitude of a friendly leopard at pause, the print gown of no date or fashion, and the cotton bonnet drooping on her brow.

    She mounted again beside her lover, with a mute obedience characteristic of impassioned natures at times, and when they had wrapped themselves up over head and ears in the sailcloth again, they plunged back into the now thick night. Tess was so receptive that the few minutes of contact with the whirl of material progress lingered in her thought.

    Londoners will drink it at their breakfasts to-morrow, won’t they?” she asked. “Strange people that we have never seen.
     
  195. @Znzn
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Chinese high speed rail is a bottomless money pit and the only line that justifies its investment is the Beijing to Shanghai line.

    Replies: @YetAnotherAnon

    “Chinese high speed rail is a bottomless money pit”

    Fortunately China has a bottomless money supply, much of it coming from Western consumers.

    “the only line that justifies its investment is the Beijing to Shanghai line”

    A lot of UK railway lines lost money for the developers too, in mid-Victorian times, but it still transformed communications and economies.

    They crept along towards a point in the expanse of shade just at hand at which a feeble light was beginning to assert its presence, a spot where, by day, a fitful white streak of steam at intervals upon the dark green background denoted intermittent moments of contact between their secluded world and modern life. Modern life stretched out its steam feeler to this point three or four times a day, touched the native existences, and quickly withdrew its feeler again, as if what it touched had been uncongenial.

    They reached the feeble light, which came from the smoky lamp of a little railway station; a poor enough terrestrial star, yet in one sense of more importance to Talbothays Dairy and mankind than the celestial ones to which it stood in such humiliating contrast. The cans of new milk were unladen in the rain, Tess getting a little shelter from a neighbouring holly tree.

    Then there was the hissing of a train, which drew up almost silently upon the wet rails, and the milk was rapidly swung can by can into the truck. The light of the engine flashed for a second upon Tess Durbeyfield’s figure, motionless under the great holly tree. No object could have looked more foreign to the gleaming cranks and wheels than this unsophisticated girl, with the round bare arms, the rainy face and hair, the suspended attitude of a friendly leopard at pause, the print gown of no date or fashion, and the cotton bonnet drooping on her brow.

    She mounted again beside her lover, with a mute obedience characteristic of impassioned natures at times, and when they had wrapped themselves up over head and ears in the sailcloth again, they plunged back into the now thick night. Tess was so receptive that the few minutes of contact with the whirl of material progress lingered in her thought.

    Londoners will drink it at their breakfasts to-morrow, won’t they?” she asked. “Strange people that we have never seen.

  196. Anon[385] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    He looks smart.

    Replies: @Anon, @Truth

    He looks smart.

    Smart? What he looks is tall. He’s gotta be a foot and a half taller than his dad.

    But seriously, you cannot discount the “noose” possibility:

    Tiffany Liu, studied at Shanghai American School, Answered December 31, 2016

    In my junior year, both of the scores from the two SAT tests I took were cancelled for everyone due to mass cheating, as collegeboard claimed.

    There’s known to be a specific Korean SAT cram school in our area that the Korean students at my high school often attended over the weekends, and they tend to test their students with old SAT tests from previous years that they’d somehow obtained elsewhere from the official website.

    Apparently, collegeboard recycles most of their SAT tests and as a result, those two tests had the exact same content as one of the practice tests those select Korean students had taken before. After the tests were sent back and graded, number of people far beyond the estimated average turned out to have perfect scores.

    Initially, collegeboard asked our school to cough up a list of the kids who attended the cram school … but in the end they cancelled everyone’s scores …

    Considering the first ever two SAT tests I took (ironically, I took the second one shortly after because the first one was cancelled) both ended in that same fashion, I’d say the chances of something like this happening are actually pretty common.

  197. @Bardon Kaldian
    @128


    Or maybe verbal IQ contributes to mathematical abilities a lot stronger than what we know so far?
     
    Or maybe the IQ stuff is, when it comes to the genius-type achievement, no more than phlogiston or snake oil?

    Replies: @128

    No, question is why if spatial abilities are connected to mathematical abilities, why are most of the mathematical contributions in the pre modern era made by Europeans, Caucasians, or people who are descended from both?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
    @128

    What if this is not so?

    We know that now, as we write, many very able mathematicians, east Asians, suck at driving.

    Where is here a spatial component of "intelligence"?

    Empirical world is the ultimate test of reality.

    Replies: @Znzn

  198. @Jack D
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Putting aside the lack of refrigeration (it was pretty shocking to me to see Chinese markets where the meat just sat out on the counter without refrigeration - they did usually have some kind of fan gizmo blowing to keep the flies off), meat really benefits from a bit of hanging or aging and should not be eaten immediately after slaughter. The enzymatic breakdown actually contributes to flavor and tenderness.

    As for bacterial growth, Chinese cooking generally involves cutting meat into small bits so that the heat of the wok permeates them and then serving said meat right away, directly from the stove or grill to the table. One of the most dangerous aspects of Western restaurant kitchens is "cook and hold" , where a dish is partially or fully cooked hours (or sometimes days) in advance and then reheated a little (or even served cold) just before service. This give bacterial counts ample time to grow exponentially. The Western preference for large cuts of rare meat doesn't help either. The Chinese have been cooking without refrigeration for 5,000+ years and they have it pretty well figured out.

    Replies: @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Putting aside the lack of refrigeration (it was pretty shocking to me to see Chinese markets where the meat just sat out on the counter without refrigeration – they did usually have some kind of fan gizmo blowing to keep the flies off), meat really benefits from a bit of hanging or aging and should not be eaten immediately after slaughter. The enzymatic breakdown actually contributes to flavor and tenderness.

    It is true that certain meats including beef and lamb benefit in flavor and texture greatly from hanging, but hanging must be done at a low temperature to inhibit bacterial growth and excess enzymatic activity that spoils rather than improves the meat.

  199. @128
    @Bardon Kaldian

    No, question is why if spatial abilities are connected to mathematical abilities, why are most of the mathematical contributions in the pre modern era made by Europeans, Caucasians, or people who are descended from both?

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

    What if this is not so?

    We know that now, as we write, many very able mathematicians, east Asians, suck at driving.

    Where is here a spatial component of “intelligence”?

    Empirical world is the ultimate test of reality.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Like this?

    https://www.apa.org/pubs/highlights/peeps/issue-81

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022096516302028

  200. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    He looks smart.

    Replies: @Anon, @Truth

    How about Dilian Whyte?

  201. @AnotherDad
    @Guy De Champlagne


    Women have outperformed men academically for the whole history of education in the US. In recent decades they’ve secured even more of a lead by tricking gullible men into feeling bad for how poorly they’re supposedly doing. But women do have a legitimate case that the SAT and ACT are biased against them since those tests do under predict their grades relative to men (i.e. for men and women with the same standardized test score, the women will get better grades).
     
    A legitimate case only if your standard is grades.

    The tests are a window into basic--and utterly unsurprising--reality:
    -- Women are better at sit still and behave--listen to the lecture, do the homework, study the notes. Women are more cooperative and compliant as any analysis of their biological role would predict.

    -- Men are smarter--at least at "figure it out". Bigger brains, more processing power, more analytical, more rational orientation. (In social reading women are superior--more of their brainpower goes into reading the social landscape--again as you would expect.)

    If you standard is "college grades", then sure the test is biased against women. But if your standard is "learned useful knowledge and can apply it" or even more so "will move the field forward"--IOW their education is a good social investment--then the test scores are not biased at all.


    Furthermore, the SAT/ACTs are taken at a time when women are essentially physically mature--baked. Quite a few boys haven't even finished growing even in height when they take the tests. Some are still literally "boys".

    My guess is there is still some wiring up going on with some of the girls at this time but pretty much all are mentally "all there" in their intellectual capabilities by the time they leave high school at 18. And after that it is just learning stuff, life experience, maturity. While young men are still developing mentally, adding brain cells, developing their higher processing capabilities out to 20, 21... as well as learning, wising up, maturing.

    The SATs/ACTs almost certainly under-predict the male/female gap in intellectual capability.

    Replies: @Anon, @Guy De Champlagne

    Women are better at sit still and behave–listen to the lecture, do the homework, study the notes. Women are more cooperative and compliant as any analysis of their biological role would predict.

    These are all things that help you get ahead in life both in and of themselves and because our society is set up to reward other things that derive from them like graduating from college. And as women continue to outperform men in life and pull away from them more and more in life we’re going to see more of these kinds of pathetic and blinkered copes until hopefully men wake the fuck up.

  202. @Anonymous
    @Calvin Hobbes

    Jaedon Whyte USAJMO winner 10th grade and below

    https://www.maa.org/news/top-high-school-math-olympians-announced-by-maa-american-mathematics-competitions-0

    https://twitter.com/Doral_Academy/status/834859079084494850?s=20

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Spangel

    Well God bless him and I hope that puberty does not lead him astray.

    BTW, from that link:

    The winners of the United States of America Junior Mathematical Olympiad (USAJMO), who are the top MAA American Mathematics Competitions students in 10th grade and below were also announced June 3, 2019. They are Adithya Balachandran, Kevin Cong, Rishabh Das, Benjamin Epstein, Justin Lee, Huaye Jeffrey Lin, Daniel Park, Eric Shen, Noah Walsh, Jaedon Whyte, Eric Yang, and George Zhang.”

    Park is the third most common last name in Korea, so Daniel Park is probably Korean. That leaves Noah Walsh as the only kid who could be a white gentile that topped the USAJMO competition. And even then, Noah is often a name for Jewish kids, so maybe he is part Jewish. Given the overall proportion of black kids to white gentile kids, this means that in the 2019 USAJMO, blacks were more likely to win the USAJMO than white gentiles.

  203. @Spangel
    @128

    "As for the math Olympiads vs. spelling bees, I notice that Indian Americans are basically absent in the US math Olympiad contestants"

    That's not in the least bit accurate. The site below lists US math olympiad contestants-

    https://www.imo-official.org/country_individual_r.aspx?code=USA&column=year&order=desc

    In the last 5 years, gopal goel, adam adreishar, Mihir Anand Singhal, Ankan Bhattacharya, Ashwin Sah and Shyam Narayanan were on the US math olympiad team. This makes them perhaps 4 or 5 times more prevalent as whites but still far less prevalent than East Asians on the American team.

    It is difficult to explain how south asians can be so much more represented in the US math olympiad team given the extent to which whites outnumber them and the overall IQ of south Asia. It should all but impossible for there to be that many more south asians than whites at the far right tail of math ability. Really, it's strange given that south asians are indo-aryan and indiginous south asian, the former group being perhaps equal in IQ to modern whites and the latter group seemingly being lower, given what we know of pure indiginous SA populations. But it is what it is. Evidently, the ability to increase group IQ through endogamous marriage is something that can be done relatively quickly and to an astounding extent.

    Replies: @ABCStar

    Interestingly, Indians seem to do well in science.42 percent of STS finalists are indian.

    https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2020/01/23/nine-indian-origin-teens-among-2020-regeneron-science-talent-search-finalists-439979/

  204. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @SFG

    The typical American soldier in WWII probably had more in common with the average German or Japanese soldier than they did with their own leaders.

    So what. They were still on opposite sides.

    Welcome to the multi-everything country that your leaders pushed so hard to create, and my leaders were so stupid to follow.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Dissident

    “The typical American soldier in WWII probably had more in common with the average German or Japanese soldier than they did with their own leaders.”

    That’s not even remotely accurate.

  205. Well Yahoo failed very badly against Google or Faceyspace so we can definitely count that out as on example of East Asian genius.

  206. @Bardon Kaldian
    @128

    What if this is not so?

    We know that now, as we write, many very able mathematicians, east Asians, suck at driving.

    Where is here a spatial component of "intelligence"?

    Empirical world is the ultimate test of reality.

    Replies: @Znzn

    • Thanks: Bardon Kaldian
  207. High IQ autistic whites seem to go into things like programming, like the socially inept star programmer who takes a quarterly bath and who always faces people at a thirty degree angle when conversing with them, and makes love to anime sex dolls or something, or playing video games like StarCraft instead of pure math, which they find to be boring, and frankly pure math is just so boring and tedious, compared to the areas where it can be applied.

  208. @David 'The Diversity Mastermind' Lammey
    People aren’t pooping on the streets because they unlearned basic hygiene. Rather, the incidents reflect shameful levels of inequality in the city

    Replies: @Donald A Thomson

    If you shut the public lavatories, the homeless shit in the streets.

    The closing of the public lavatories in the Californian cities was even reported in the US MSM.

    Can you think of any reason for shutting the public toilets that didn’t show a desire to drive out the homeless by making their living conditions unbearable? [email protected]

  209. @Bardon Kaldian
    @Jack D


    In the future, they will be one group – the secular Jew-WASPs – because they interbreed with each other a lot more than they interbreed with the lower IQ classes.
     
    I don't know about IQ, but your interbreeding patterns are wrong:

    https://18doors.org/why_do_jews_marry_catholics/

    According to the U.S. Religion Landscape Survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 39% of intermarried Jews are married to Catholics, even though Protestants outnumber Catholics in the U.S. by nearly two to one. Only 23% of intermarried Jews are married to Protestants. Overall, slightly less than a third of all married Jews are intermarried.

    “This is something that everyone has known for years,” says Rabbi Arthur Blecher, who noted the trend in last year’s The New American Judaism: The Way Forward on Challenging Issues from Intermarriage to Jewish Identity. “Social workers, rabbis, and certainly Jews. No one knows exactly why. It is not as though the Jews are saying ‘Gee, I would like to marry a Catholic…'”

    While no one has formally studied the question, sociologist Steven Cohen, a professor at New York’s Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, boils the phenomenon down to one word: geography.

    “Jews are concentrated in the Northeast, and so are Catholics,” he says. “People tend to marry people they encounter. I can’t say that the Jews have any special affection for people who are Catholic.”

    Replies: @Dissident

    “Jews are concentrated in the Northeast, and so are Catholics,” he says. “People tend to marry people they encounter. I can’t say that the Jews have any special affection for people who are Catholic.”

    What percentage of Catholics married to Jews are of Italian descent?

    Surely, some will understand the relation the question has to the material you quoted.

  210. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    @SFG

    The typical American soldier in WWII probably had more in common with the average German or Japanese soldier than they did with their own leaders.

    So what. They were still on opposite sides.

    Welcome to the multi-everything country that your leaders pushed so hard to create, and my leaders were so stupid to follow.

    Replies: @Corvinus, @Dissident

    Welcome to the multi-everything country that your leaders pushed so hard to create, and my leaders were so stupid to follow.

    Who are SFG‘s “leaders”?

  211. @AnotherDad
    @The Alarmist

    Yep, tests are racist.
    Come to think of it, data is racist.


    But being a deplorable, i'd actually like to have more anyway:

    I wouldn't mind having my taxes pay for general school leaving tests for every single American kid:
    -- part IQy, part general HS level knowledge
    -- computerized and adaptive like the AFQT which the SAT/ACT continue to refuse to do (which aids the preppers); in fact using AFQT would be fine
    -- student background--race, ethnicity, religion, parent income, parent education, family structure all recorded
    -- with swab for DNA test

    ... and we'd have the data to sort this all out.


    Free bonus: a few years out, cops would be clearing more crimes, bad guys off the street ... crime down.

    Downside: no doubt we'd have to listen to more wailing and whining when some of those bad guys decided they didn't want to be arrested.

    Replies: @Alice in Wonderland

    — computerized and adaptive like the AFQT which the SAT/ACT continue to refuse to do

    can someone explain this?

  212. @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    People from southeast Asia got to Madagascar and Hawaii by sea.

    Replies: @Alice in Wonderland

    The recent declines aren’t as sharp as on the SAT, where the test was redone a couple of years ago, which messed up everybody except Asians.

    a quibble on that point

    Asians had the sharpest drop of any group after it was redone. I would argue that low point is their “real” average score because it was less affected by preparation than the previous or subsequent version. Every Asian who was employed in test prep likely took that test to see what was on it and came back with the actual test items to use to prepare students for the new test. So, scores bounced back quickly, but the drop was very sharp.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Alice in Wonderland

    Makes sense.

  213. @Jack D
    @128


    plus adoptions may also be selecting for the more intelligent half of the East Asian population, so adoptions have also become more selective
     
    That's ridiculous - high IQ people tend to be successful and successful people don't give their kids up for adoption in the modern world. Not that many Asian kids in America are adopted to begin with - most are with their own parents. In the old days in America, sometimes high IQ coeds would get knocked up and not want to keep the baby (e.g. Steve Jobs' mom) but since the widespread availability of abortion and birth control, that never happens.

    The Johns Hopkins Study of Exception Talent published some demographic data on the kids that qualify for the study (700 or more on either section of the SAT before your 13th birthday):

    https://cty.jhu.edu/sebin/x/u/study_of_exceptional_talent.jpg

    They haven't changed their photo in years so the current group is probably (much) more Asian than this photo, which is probably why they haven't changed the photo. I'm just waiting for the whole thing to be cancelled because they rarely if ever get any blacks (I'm guessing that of the tiny handful of "blacks" that have ever qualified, 0 are ADOS blacks).

    Anyway, from what I recall from the study, only a handful of adopted kids over the decades every qualified. Also the vast majority of qualifiers came from intact 2 parent homes.

    Americans may not want to adopt the most clearly damaged babies from Asian orphanages so there is some selection effect but the moms giving their kids up for adoption are not drawn from the high IQ echelons.

    Replies: @128, @128, @Calvin Hobbes, @Reg Cæsar, @Alice in Wonderland

    I think the photo is heavily Asian also because Asians are more likely to show up for the photo.

  214. @Alice in Wonderland
    @Steve Sailer


    The recent declines aren’t as sharp as on the SAT, where the test was redone a couple of years ago, which messed up everybody except Asians.
     
    a quibble on that point

    Asians had the sharpest drop of any group after it was redone. I would argue that low point is their "real" average score because it was less affected by preparation than the previous or subsequent version. Every Asian who was employed in test prep likely took that test to see what was on it and came back with the actual test items to use to prepare students for the new test. So, scores bounced back quickly, but the drop was very sharp.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Makes sense.

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