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1912: "If It Wasn't for the Irish and the Jews"
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iSteve commenter Rapparee points to this 1912 recording:

 
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  1. That was fun Steve – thanks. I don’t think I ever felt kinship for Jews until now but my best friend is a Jew who I fight with a lot but is pretty damn funny. He’ll appreciate this.

  2. Have the Irish been kicked out of 109 countries?

    This reads like:

    What would America be like without the Negroes and the Jews. The bottom and top, against the middle.

  3. Anonymous[504] • Disclaimer says:

    An early form of Internet “shellacposting”

  4. The Irish will find out they’re expendable, when the time comes. Used to be, they were consumed with the fighting spirit, but looking at Ireland today it appears to have been bred out of them.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Mr McKenna

    Irish independence from the English took the piss and vinegar out of both sides, it seems.

    , @Jake
    @Mr McKenna

    They assimilated to WASP culture. When you assimilate to WASP culture, you become what WASP Elites want.

    , @John Derbyshire
    @Mr McKenna

    https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/Diaries/2020-05.html#03

    , @S. Anonyia
    @Mr McKenna

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    Replies: @JMcG, @Matra, @Clifford Brown

  5. Anonymous[166] • Disclaimer says:

    My Irish and Jewish ancestors must have danced to this ditty. Over Corned Beef.

  6. “Hammerstein” is Oscar I, the grandfather of Oscar II.

    This gem is the first hit by Fred Fisher, of “Chicago” and “Peg O’ My Heart” fame. His daughter Doris co-wrote “Put the Blame on Mame”.

    If The Man In The Moon Were A Coon

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Jewish name Hammerstein was a form a cultural appropriation because it originated in the German Nobility/Gentry of the Hammersteins. Otto von Hammerstein, for example, born 1002 near Frankfurt/M.

    The most interesting of all of them was the leading Wehrmacht-General Knut von Hammerstein-Equord who resigned in the thirties because he thought, that Hitler was nuts - he is being portrayed by Hans Magnus Enzensberger in his fabulous historical essay Hammerstein:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord

      
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(Adelsgeschlecht)  

    Replies: @Jack D, @Old Palo Altan

  7. What did the the Irishman say upon meeting the Jew?

    “Whale Oil Beef Hooked Knows!”

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Dammit. BTW, that that joke is from Jimmy Two Times.

    https://youtu.be/EpmtMyr6orE?t=31

    Replies: @Mr McKenna

  8. This is an early version of “We Built That.”

    • Replies: @Rapparee
    @Anon

    True, but when the specific examples given of “things we built” are Vaudeville, urban police departments, and the Democratic party, it’s hard not to concede the point somewhat.

  9. But then one day for absolutely no reason at all

    • Agree: 3g4me
  10. With Irishmen like Bill Murray who needs Jews.

    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golems
    @Trinity

    With Irishmen like Bill Murray who needs Jews.

     

    Another 'Plastic' Paddy Thomas Cahill also wrote The Gifts of the Jews but I don't think Isadore's people returned the compliment.

    Just another horse and rider relationship like with blacks or Brits with their song 'Jerusalem'.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Danindc

  11. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    What did the the Irishman say upon meeting the Jew?

    “Whale Oil Beef Hooked Knows!”

    Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Dammit. BTW, that that joke is from Jimmy Two Times.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Gangster movies--and that's a good one, of course--are yet another reason the Underclass feels totally justified in 'taking what they want' whatever the consequences to innocent parties. The MSM is now totally complicit by emphasizing that wypipos can never be 'innocent parties' anyway, due to the original sin of their skin. That's not racist, btw, because nothing you can ever say or do against wypipos can possibly be racist.

  12. Is this good, old fashioned, affectionate bigotry ?

    If so, another candidate:

  13. 108 years later, and all of those names well known enough to be in a song are long forgotten, except for four of the Jews (Cohan, Hammerstein, Loew, and Shubert) who are barely remembered. Loew will be entirely forgotten in a decade. Billy Murray is entirely forgotten.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Hamilton was right2

    Cohan, not Cohen. George M. Cohan was Irish, not Jewish.

    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don't even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn't have even a glimmer of recognition.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @D.I.e_y.t, @Dan Hayes

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Hamilton was right2


    four of the Jews (Cohan, Hammerstein, Loew, and Shubert)
     
    Cohan, as others have jumped on noted, was Irish. Hammerstein will be connected with his grandson, whose mother, like Ethel Merman's, Jay Leno's, and Donald Trump's, was Scottish.
  14. This is the point I used to make when people talked about the black contribution to American culture. Outside of entertainment, what? (Now, I just try to re-direct the conversation.)

    Of course, the Jews gave us a lot more than Seinfeld.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    @Chrisnonymous

    I sense you mean to minimize their contribution by limiting it to "entertainment." But whatever your personal opinion, entertainment is a Big Deal. Not just as a big part of the economy, but projecting American "soft power" worldwide.

    One of several reasons the Cold War required America to desegregate and civil right itself to death was to make it easier for American pop culture -- largely black or black influenced -- to spread around the world, without Soviet responses along the lines of "What about the plight of blacks in Alabama?"

    Arguably, as in much else, our imperialist elites sacrificed the actual population to pursue their grand schemes.

    Louis Armstrong was appointed Goodwill Ambassador and sent around the world with Dizzy Gillespie and others. I've proposed that to counter moves to blast Rushmore, or add someone like Harriet Tubman, Louis be added to Mt. Rushmore: one head out of five is about right by population, he was born in 1900, the right period, and he was born on the 4th of July. Above all, it celebrates a positive contribution, America's only original cultural form, not whining about slavery or racism.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  15. Wow, the Irish must have really been Black!

  16. Edward Alsworth Ross, in his Old World in the New (1914, https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/47954), had mostly good things to say about the Irish and the Jews. He had strong reservations about many of the South Italians.

  17. I blogged about it over a decade ago. And I still haven’t gotten around to reading “The Ordeal of Civility”.

  18. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Dammit. BTW, that that joke is from Jimmy Two Times.

    https://youtu.be/EpmtMyr6orE?t=31

    Replies: @Mr McKenna

    Gangster movies–and that’s a good one, of course–are yet another reason the Underclass feels totally justified in ‘taking what they want’ whatever the consequences to innocent parties. The MSM is now totally complicit by emphasizing that wypipos can never be ‘innocent parties’ anyway, due to the original sin of their skin. That’s not racist, btw, because nothing you can ever say or do against wypipos can possibly be racist.

  19. Anon[898] • Disclaimer says:

    OT: There are a whole bunch of Soros DAs around the US right now. I wonder if Democratic mayors realize they’re being undermined by these DAs. The DAs refuse to prosecute and just let criminals out on no bail, the crime rate goes up, riots and looting ensue, and the Democratic mayors get the blame for allowing the violence to happen.

    Are local Democratic politicians wising up to this? The Soros left is trying to backstab the traditional Democrats who hold office.

  20. The clown show Tom Hanks scolds and gets preachy about making us all wear masks. What a national treasure he is!

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/tom-hanks-people-refusing-wear-114624289.html

    • Agree: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Bugg
    @RichardTaylor

    Have a hard time taking any white guy seriously when his son, "Chet Haze" is an aspiring rapper.Kid was raised in Hollywood and of course talks as if he grew up in Compton or Bed Stuy.

    Speaking of high culture, The Woke are now on the rampage to cancel "Hamilton" due to it's portrayal of slave owners .

    Replies: @Hibernian

  21. I was thinking of this era when reading The Germ Theory Of Disease’s comment in the Hamilton thread, specifically, this part:

    Before all the present racial nastiness burst forth, it was possible to see the Obama presidency as the formal entree of POC into the broader, normative context of official Americana — viz, as real, actual Americans and not just tedious exotics that the Americans petulantly put up with. A similar thing famously happened with the election of JFK, which signified that the white-ethnic Ellis Island crowd (not just the Irish, but the Jews and other ethnics) had been officially “made” as Americans, had been jumped into the gang.

    The American ethnogenesis of Ellis Island immigrants really started closer to the turn of the 20th Century than JFK’s election. Israel Zangwill’s play The Melting Pot was first staged in 1908, per Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Melting_Pot_(play) ):

    • Replies: @Lurker
    @Dave Pinsen

    When someone is said to be 'American' the mental image I have is of a generic white person.

    I'm not sure how many people think any different?

    Replies: @David

    , @Corvinus
    @Dave Pinsen

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.564.6064&rep=rep1&type=pdf


    With regard to ethnicity theory, the U.S. case should be framed within the broader ethnogenetic process. Typically, ethnies form either through fission from a parent stock: i.e. Ulster Protestants from Scots, Dutch from Greater Germans, Quebecois from French, Afrikaners from Dutch; or fusion with other ethnies or ethnic fragments: i.e. Mexican Mestizos from Aztecs and Spanish Creoles, English from Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Celtic Britons or Japanese from Chinese, Koreans and Southeast Asians. Fission and fusion are processes that create ethnies, but more often, as Barth points out, ethnic boundaries tend to remain relatively stable while population flows back and forth across the boundaries. During such a process, ethnies accrete new members to their core through assimilation. The Zulus, Greeks, Jews and Magyars are all good examples of ethnies that have absorbed newcomers arguably more numerous than the original core stock.

    ...

    Many scholars would concur with the view that an American sense of community arose, complete with its heroic mythology, but most would label this a civic national process rather than an ethnic one. Yet from the outset, the words and actions of Americans indicate that a growing sense of American ethnicity underpinned the civic rhetoric. This ethnicity grew out of a sense of isolation that Oscar Handlin calls 'the horror' of rootlessness brought on by the colonists' incessant migration and the ontological meaninglessness of living in alien surroundings. Anthony Smith sees this as a process of group psychology, in which a people seek to achieve a measure of this-worldly immortality through identification with a group rooted in land and kinship. The result is
    ethnogenesis.
     

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    , @James O'Meara
    @Dave Pinsen

    "A similar thing famously happened with the election of JFK, which signified that the white-ethnic Ellis Island crowd (not just the Irish, but the Jews and other ethnics) had been officially “made” as Americans, had been jumped into the gang."

    Another view:

    "That's what happens when you let the n*ggers vote. They get together with the Jews and Catholics, and put an Irish bleeding heart in the White House." -- Guy Bannister, at least according to Stone's JFK.

  22. @Trinity
    With Irishmen like Bill Murray who needs Jews.

    Replies: @Amerimutt Golems

    With Irishmen like Bill Murray who needs Jews.

    Another ‘Plastic’ Paddy Thomas Cahill also wrote The Gifts of the Jews but I don’t think Isadore’s people returned the compliment.

    Just another horse and rider relationship like with blacks or Brits with their song ‘Jerusalem’.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Amerimutt Golems


    Another ‘Plastic’ Paddy
     
    When the Irish lost the faith they lost everything, including Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/BaronStrucker/status/1278097654141108224?s=20

    Replies: @Jake, @James O'Meara

    , @Danindc
    @Amerimutt Golems

    As we in the golf world are coming to find out....with Bill Murray, less is more

  23. @Reg Cæsar
    "Hammerstein" is Oscar I, the grandfather of Oscar II.

    This gem is the first hit by Fred Fisher, of "Chicago" and "Peg O' My Heart" fame. His daughter Doris co-wrote "Put the Blame on Mame".

    If The Man In The Moon Were A Coon


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WKwcm0-cUjI

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    The Jewish name Hammerstein was a form a cultural appropriation because it originated in the German Nobility/Gentry of the Hammersteins. Otto von Hammerstein, for example, born 1002 near Frankfurt/M.

    The most interesting of all of them was the leading Wehrmacht-General Knut von Hammerstein-Equord who resigned in the thirties because he thought, that Hitler was nuts – he is being portrayed by Hans Magnus Enzensberger in his fabulous historical essay Hammerstein:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord

      
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(Adelsgeschlecht)  

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Dieter Kief

    Hammerstein is (or was - now it's in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Typically you'd do this when you were living somewhere else - if you live in Berlin it doesn't make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin, but if you lived in some other town then people might call you "Joe from (von) Berlin" to distinguish you from all the other Joes - Joe the Butcher and Joe the Blind Guy, etc. Von Hammerstein doesn't denote a fake claim of nobility, it denotes that Oscar's family was FROM the town of HAMMERSTEIN.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Dieter Kief, @James O'Meara, @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    , @Old Palo Altan
    @Dieter Kief

    The Baron (a Catholic) was in many ways admirable. Nevertheless I am unable to entirely approve of a man whose methods of child-rearing led to his two daughters leaving the Church and becoming hardline (and life-long) Communists before they were hardly out of their teens, well before anyone much considered Adolf Hitler to be even a possible, much less a serious threat.
    In other words they were Communists out of pure conviction (or maybe just hatred of their family background) and remained so after Communism had revealed itself to all but the most blind as the most murderous and soul-destroying movement the world has ever seen (and is, alas, still seeing).

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  24. Anonymous[212] • Disclaimer says:
    @Amerimutt Golems
    @Trinity

    With Irishmen like Bill Murray who needs Jews.

     

    Another 'Plastic' Paddy Thomas Cahill also wrote The Gifts of the Jews but I don't think Isadore's people returned the compliment.

    Just another horse and rider relationship like with blacks or Brits with their song 'Jerusalem'.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Danindc

    Another ‘Plastic’ Paddy

    When the Irish lost the faith they lost everything, including Ireland.

    • Replies: @Jake
    @Anonymous

    True. But it began not with losing the Faith but with slowly accepting assimilation to WASP culture, which means embracing the world of Global Anglo-Zionist Empire. The loss of faith followed quickly on the heels of that. And the Irish were ready to be colonized in way the Brits had begun rearranging the world in the Victorian era: move huge numbers of Third World peoples around the globe, doing jobs to make the Empire's Elites even richer, while continuing to keep the knife to the throats of the non-WASP natives of the British Isles. The peoples who best served the Brit Empire by being moved were the peoples 0f the Indian subcontinent and the Irish and Scots, who had to move in nearly unbelievable numbers because of what direct English rule meant for their nations.

    There is nothing new about what the Elites of the American form of Anglo-Zionist Empire are doing today.

    , @James O'Meara
    @Anonymous

    Something to that, but I think the word "appointed" in the tweet is important; I assume these were appointed by Woke elites, not voters.

  25. @Dave Pinsen
    I was thinking of this era when reading The Germ Theory Of Disease’s comment in the Hamilton thread, specifically, this part:

    Before all the present racial nastiness burst forth, it was possible to see the Obama presidency as the formal entree of POC into the broader, normative context of official Americana — viz, as real, actual Americans and not just tedious exotics that the Americans petulantly put up with. A similar thing famously happened with the election of JFK, which signified that the white-ethnic Ellis Island crowd (not just the Irish, but the Jews and other ethnics) had been officially “made” as Americans, had been jumped into the gang.
     
    The American ethnogenesis of Ellis Island immigrants really started closer to the turn of the 20th Century than JFK’s election. Israel Zangwill’s play The Melting Pot was first staged in 1908, per Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Melting_Pot_(play) ):

    Replies: @Lurker, @Corvinus, @James O'Meara

    When someone is said to be ‘American’ the mental image I have is of a generic white person.

    I’m not sure how many people think any different?

    • Replies: @David
    @Lurker

    In Honduras the Spanish language equivalent of "North American" can only mean a white American. All the others get a special epithet like Chino or Negro or Indio. They think of the US as a white country with guests, however much they say otherwise once here.

  26. @Mr McKenna
    The Irish will find out they're expendable, when the time comes. Used to be, they were consumed with the fighting spirit, but looking at Ireland today it appears to have been bred out of them.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Jake, @John Derbyshire, @S. Anonyia

    Irish independence from the English took the piss and vinegar out of both sides, it seems.

  27. @Mr McKenna
    The Irish will find out they're expendable, when the time comes. Used to be, they were consumed with the fighting spirit, but looking at Ireland today it appears to have been bred out of them.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Jake, @John Derbyshire, @S. Anonyia

    They assimilated to WASP culture. When you assimilate to WASP culture, you become what WASP Elites want.

  28. @Anonymous
    @Amerimutt Golems


    Another ‘Plastic’ Paddy
     
    When the Irish lost the faith they lost everything, including Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/BaronStrucker/status/1278097654141108224?s=20

    Replies: @Jake, @James O'Meara

    True. But it began not with losing the Faith but with slowly accepting assimilation to WASP culture, which means embracing the world of Global Anglo-Zionist Empire. The loss of faith followed quickly on the heels of that. And the Irish were ready to be colonized in way the Brits had begun rearranging the world in the Victorian era: move huge numbers of Third World peoples around the globe, doing jobs to make the Empire’s Elites even richer, while continuing to keep the knife to the throats of the non-WASP natives of the British Isles. The peoples who best served the Brit Empire by being moved were the peoples 0f the Indian subcontinent and the Irish and Scots, who had to move in nearly unbelievable numbers because of what direct English rule meant for their nations.

    There is nothing new about what the Elites of the American form of Anglo-Zionist Empire are doing today.

  29. @Hamilton was right2
    108 years later, and all of those names well known enough to be in a song are long forgotten, except for four of the Jews (Cohan, Hammerstein, Loew, and Shubert) who are barely remembered. Loew will be entirely forgotten in a decade. Billy Murray is entirely forgotten.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

    Cohan, not Cohen. George M. Cohan was Irish, not Jewish.

    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don’t even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn’t have even a glimmer of recognition.

    • Agree: Dutch Boy
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Jack D


    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don’t even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn’t have even a glimmer of recognition.
     
    Was the category Harvard Lampoon? The answer was Colin Jost (below: Jost is white guy on left)

    https://media.popculture.com/2019/12/snl-weekend-update-colin-jost-michael-che-saturday-night-live-nb-20076708-640x320.jpeg

    Not funny. Typical boring snarky unfunny political “humor”. I only started hearing/knowing about him when he was attacking Trump (how edgy).

    Replies: @benjaminl

    , @D.I.e_y.t
    @Jack D

    After dropping out of overall mass media consumption 20 plus years ago, I now find I have no current reference points with which to make light interpersonal connections. This has made for a quite solitary and isolated existence, the bleakness of which is amplified by the knowledge that most are blind and clueless by concious choice. They don't want to talk, or even think about much beyond sport and current pop culture. I have become an outlier, a foreigner upon the same soil I've inhabited for over a half century. Mmmm tasty black pills abound, jajajajaja sorry

    , @Dan Hayes
    @Jack D

    "Cohan, not Cohen" was a line in John Ford's "The Quiet Man".

  30. @RichardTaylor
    The clown show Tom Hanks scolds and gets preachy about making us all wear masks. What a national treasure he is!

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/tom-hanks-people-refusing-wear-114624289.html

    Replies: @Bugg

    Have a hard time taking any white guy seriously when his son, “Chet Haze” is an aspiring rapper.Kid was raised in Hollywood and of course talks as if he grew up in Compton or Bed Stuy.

    Speaking of high culture, The Woke are now on the rampage to cancel “Hamilton” due to it’s portrayal of slave owners .

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Bugg


    Speaking of high culture, The Woke are now on the rampage to cancel “Hamilton” due to it’s portrayal of slave owners .
     
    After it's made a big pile of money due to the hysteria surrounding it and the high ticket prices.
  31. @Dieter Kief
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Jewish name Hammerstein was a form a cultural appropriation because it originated in the German Nobility/Gentry of the Hammersteins. Otto von Hammerstein, for example, born 1002 near Frankfurt/M.

    The most interesting of all of them was the leading Wehrmacht-General Knut von Hammerstein-Equord who resigned in the thirties because he thought, that Hitler was nuts - he is being portrayed by Hans Magnus Enzensberger in his fabulous historical essay Hammerstein:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord

      
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(Adelsgeschlecht)  

    Replies: @Jack D, @Old Palo Altan

    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Typically you’d do this when you were living somewhere else – if you live in Berlin it doesn’t make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin, but if you lived in some other town then people might call you “Joe from (von) Berlin” to distinguish you from all the other Joes – Joe the Butcher and Joe the Blind Guy, etc. Von Hammerstein doesn’t denote a fake claim of nobility, it denotes that Oscar’s family was FROM the town of HAMMERSTEIN.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Jack D

    The Germans, or at least some Germans, since Germany wasn't united until 1871, had a law against non-nobles using Von. It is common for Dutch people to use Van. The first Roosevelt in the Colonies which became the US was a Van. The family later dropped it.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    , @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D


    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

     

    I know of no such a Hammerstein in the East. Hammerstein as a family name did originate not in the East, but in the West, as far as I know - and as I wrote: A little town near Frankfurt is the place, where the first known Hammerstein was born: Otto in 1002. And right there is still a Hammerstein village right at the Rhine.

    Wikipedia says, the Oskar Hammerstein family came from Stettin at the Baltic Sea.


    Jews did buy surnames in the nineteenth century when it became necessary to have one for everyone. The prizes used to go up with the attractivity of an existing name. This did not happen in Germany though but was quite common in Galizia for example. Usually, richer  Jews afforded more expensive and attractive names, like - Unz - or Diamant or Blumenthal or Gold - the poorer ones had to take lesser names like Hammerstein for example, or even Schlachter (=butcher), or Schweißloch ((Sweathole...) etc....

    https://www.zeit.de/1988/06/habn-sie-nicht-den-kleinen-cohn-gesehn 

    Dietz Bering wrote a decent - if quite self-flagallantly (= inappropriately) titled - book about the Jewish names:  Dietz Bering: Der Name als Stigma. Antisemitismus im Deutschen Alltag 1812 – 1933; Verlag Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 1987; 567 S., 98,– DM. 

    PS

    There are quite a few people named Berliner, almost all of them Jews. That there are not more has nothing to do with Berlin being too big and thus not discriminative enough. - There are many Germans named Hamburger for example, and Hamburg had - almost forever - been the bigger one of the two cities.

    Berliner didn't work too well, because of the existence of the Berliner Pfannkuchen - nobody wanted to be called like a Doughnut... and, - because Berlin is not old. Most people who moved there had already surnames by the time the city became big (in the late nineteenth century.

    PPS
    Did you get that I was not too serious when writing my first comment? - I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business, which I think is an empty can - unless you make woke use of it - as quite a few people do, unfortunately.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Dieter Kief, @Bill Jones, @Jack D

    , @James O'Meara
    @Jack D

    "if you live in Berlin it doesn’t make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin,"

    Even that Irish-American JFK.

    , @Old Palo Altan
    @Jack D

    Jack, I usually enjoy your all-knowing lectures (seriously).
    On the other hand you might have paused for a moment's reflection before lecturing an actual German about how his language works, particularly given that you have admitted in the past to having no more than a passing acquaintance with it.

    And surely you have heard of both Isaiah and Irving Berlin?

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Jack D


    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.
     
    Is it in Shtetl Finder?

    https://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/ShtetlFinder.html

    Or JewishGen? The latter was often confused with the former, at least on the goyish genealogical mailing lists I used to frequent.

    https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/

    You don't have to be Jewish to gain from these sources. Your ancestors might have lived in the same village.

    Replies: @Jack D

  32. Those days New York streets and thus its musical theater had lots of different ethnics rubbing up against each other beginning with Harriman and Hart, “Ireland and Italy, Jerusalem and Germany”. Abie’s Irish Rose etc

  33. @Mr McKenna
    The Irish will find out they're expendable, when the time comes. Used to be, they were consumed with the fighting spirit, but looking at Ireland today it appears to have been bred out of them.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Jake, @John Derbyshire, @S. Anonyia

  34. @Dave Pinsen
    I was thinking of this era when reading The Germ Theory Of Disease’s comment in the Hamilton thread, specifically, this part:

    Before all the present racial nastiness burst forth, it was possible to see the Obama presidency as the formal entree of POC into the broader, normative context of official Americana — viz, as real, actual Americans and not just tedious exotics that the Americans petulantly put up with. A similar thing famously happened with the election of JFK, which signified that the white-ethnic Ellis Island crowd (not just the Irish, but the Jews and other ethnics) had been officially “made” as Americans, had been jumped into the gang.
     
    The American ethnogenesis of Ellis Island immigrants really started closer to the turn of the 20th Century than JFK’s election. Israel Zangwill’s play The Melting Pot was first staged in 1908, per Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Melting_Pot_(play) ):

    Replies: @Lurker, @Corvinus, @James O'Meara

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.564.6064&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    With regard to ethnicity theory, the U.S. case should be framed within the broader ethnogenetic process. Typically, ethnies form either through fission from a parent stock: i.e. Ulster Protestants from Scots, Dutch from Greater Germans, Quebecois from French, Afrikaners from Dutch; or fusion with other ethnies or ethnic fragments: i.e. Mexican Mestizos from Aztecs and Spanish Creoles, English from Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Celtic Britons or Japanese from Chinese, Koreans and Southeast Asians. Fission and fusion are processes that create ethnies, but more often, as Barth points out, ethnic boundaries tend to remain relatively stable while population flows back and forth across the boundaries. During such a process, ethnies accrete new members to their core through assimilation. The Zulus, Greeks, Jews and Magyars are all good examples of ethnies that have absorbed newcomers arguably more numerous than the original core stock.

    Many scholars would concur with the view that an American sense of community arose, complete with its heroic mythology, but most would label this a civic national process rather than an ethnic one. Yet from the outset, the words and actions of Americans indicate that a growing sense of American ethnicity underpinned the civic rhetoric. This ethnicity grew out of a sense of isolation that Oscar Handlin calls ‘the horror’ of rootlessness brought on by the colonists’ incessant migration and the ontological meaninglessness of living in alien surroundings. Anthony Smith sees this as a process of group psychology, in which a people seek to achieve a measure of this-worldly immortality through identification with a group rooted in land and kinship. The result is
    ethnogenesis.

    • Agree: Hibernian
    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    @Corvinus

    The 1950s was a period when most white Americans were developing a sense of nationalism that transcended ethnicity and fostered a sense of group solidarity that our rulers found threatening. They took measures to put the kibosh on it with the results we see today.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  35. Most Irish-Americans don’t agree with Mr. Murray. Maybe back in the early part of the 20th Century in NYC there were some common bonds between the two groups of immigrants, but there are no bonds that remain.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    @Arthur Biggs

    There are some mixed marriages; five in my immediate and extended family, two of which ended in divorce after at least 10 years; two boomer couples who are still married after 20 plus years, one Gen x couple with two children have been married 5-10 years. The Irish parties are not full blooded Irish, although my girl cousin who divorced her Jewish husband after 25 years is the daughter of a father, my Uncle John (an in-law, not my blood uncle) who claims to be, even though he's part German. (Her mother, my Mother's sister, is 100% Irish.)

  36. Anonymous[272] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    @Hamilton was right2

    Cohan, not Cohen. George M. Cohan was Irish, not Jewish.

    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don't even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn't have even a glimmer of recognition.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @D.I.e_y.t, @Dan Hayes

    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don’t even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn’t have even a glimmer of recognition.

    Was the category Harvard Lampoon? The answer was Colin Jost (below: Jost is white guy on left)

    Not funny. Typical boring snarky unfunny political “humor”. I only started hearing/knowing about him when he was attacking Trump (how edgy).

    • Replies: @benjaminl
    @Anonymous

    Hey, Colin Jost has a new book out. Let's see how his new book is covered in the NYT... Oh wow, guess what, it looks like drawing invidious inferences based on someone's racial identity and facial physiognomy is OK now. Who knew?


    But Jost knows many viewers believe he has coasted on his annoyingly clean-cut looks that, despite his underlying earnestness, can give him an air of insincerity....

    As he writes in his memoir, “Some of you think you know me, but you’re actually just thinking of the villain from an ’80s movie who tries to steal the hero’s girlfriend by challenging him to a ski race.” (In acknowledgment of this, he titled the book “A Very Punchable Face.”)..

    What has succeeded for them, Che said, are recurring bits like the one where they read jokes sight-unseen that they have written for each other (and which Che often writes to make Jost sound racist).

    “I guess if you look at Colin and you don’t know him, if someone told you that he was a racist, you’d be like, yeah, maybe,” Che said. “He couldn’t be further from it, which is why it’s so funny.
     

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/books/colin-jost-a-very-punchable-face-snl-weekend-update.html

    Replies: @HammerJack

  37. @Jack D
    @Dieter Kief

    Hammerstein is (or was - now it's in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Typically you'd do this when you were living somewhere else - if you live in Berlin it doesn't make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin, but if you lived in some other town then people might call you "Joe from (von) Berlin" to distinguish you from all the other Joes - Joe the Butcher and Joe the Blind Guy, etc. Von Hammerstein doesn't denote a fake claim of nobility, it denotes that Oscar's family was FROM the town of HAMMERSTEIN.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Dieter Kief, @James O'Meara, @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    The Germans, or at least some Germans, since Germany wasn’t united until 1871, had a law against non-nobles using Von. It is common for Dutch people to use Van. The first Roosevelt in the Colonies which became the US was a Van. The family later dropped it.

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    @Hibernian

    There is actually a Dutch name Zondervan (without van).

  38. Oscar Hammerstein (I) was from Prussia and left in 1864. I have no idea whether Prussia had that law or for how long but in any case once he got to America he could call himself any damn thing he wanted. The well known composer Oscar II was his grandson.

  39. Brings to mind another period ditty–this one by the Irish, about the Jews and the Swedes. I’ve quoted these lyrics here before, from a song my grandfather recalled from the olden days in St. Paul. The chorus is sung in a comically broad Swedish accent:

    Ten thousand Jews are selling booze
    without the state’s permission
    to fill the needs of a million Swedes
    who voted for Prohibition.

    [Chorus]

    I come from Minnesota
    the land I love so well.
    I voted for Volstead:
    Yod dammit to hell!!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @slumber_j


    I come from Minnesota
    the land I love so well.
    I voted for Volstead:
    Yod dammit to hell!!
     
    Poor Volstead. He wasn't much of a prohibitionist himself. He just carried the water for others. Now his name is forever linked with the hatchet-faced harridans. (And women's suffrage.) Be careful whom you do favors for!

    He retired to Granite Falls, where locals tried to recruit him in an effort to enact post-Prohibition dry laws. He'd have nothing to do with it.

    (Many states have a monopoly on liquor sales. Minnesota may be unique in delegating this to municipalities. A few, such as tony suburb Edina and humbler Richfield next door, take it up. Would looting them be "vandalizing public property"?)

    I'd read that neither Orval Faubus nor George Wallace were all that big on segregation themselves-- they were successful enough to practice it without help from the state-- but they knew damned well what their humble constituents wanted. They were Volsteads.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    , @Hibernian
    @slumber_j

    Liquor is sold wholesale, and retail in packages, by the Jewish community, and by the drink by the Irish. (I grew up in a state, Iowa, that legalized selling liquor (anything stronger than beer) by the drink in 1962.)

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    , @Mike Zwick
    @slumber_j

    Swedes are well known as drunks but the Norwegians are known to be teetotalers.

  40. @Hibernian
    @Jack D

    The Germans, or at least some Germans, since Germany wasn't united until 1871, had a law against non-nobles using Von. It is common for Dutch people to use Van. The first Roosevelt in the Colonies which became the US was a Van. The family later dropped it.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    There is actually a Dutch name Zondervan (without van).

  41. @Amerimutt Golems
    @Trinity

    With Irishmen like Bill Murray who needs Jews.

     

    Another 'Plastic' Paddy Thomas Cahill also wrote The Gifts of the Jews but I don't think Isadore's people returned the compliment.

    Just another horse and rider relationship like with blacks or Brits with their song 'Jerusalem'.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @Danindc

    As we in the golf world are coming to find out….with Bill Murray, less is more

  42. @Corvinus
    @Dave Pinsen

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.564.6064&rep=rep1&type=pdf


    With regard to ethnicity theory, the U.S. case should be framed within the broader ethnogenetic process. Typically, ethnies form either through fission from a parent stock: i.e. Ulster Protestants from Scots, Dutch from Greater Germans, Quebecois from French, Afrikaners from Dutch; or fusion with other ethnies or ethnic fragments: i.e. Mexican Mestizos from Aztecs and Spanish Creoles, English from Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Celtic Britons or Japanese from Chinese, Koreans and Southeast Asians. Fission and fusion are processes that create ethnies, but more often, as Barth points out, ethnic boundaries tend to remain relatively stable while population flows back and forth across the boundaries. During such a process, ethnies accrete new members to their core through assimilation. The Zulus, Greeks, Jews and Magyars are all good examples of ethnies that have absorbed newcomers arguably more numerous than the original core stock.

    ...

    Many scholars would concur with the view that an American sense of community arose, complete with its heroic mythology, but most would label this a civic national process rather than an ethnic one. Yet from the outset, the words and actions of Americans indicate that a growing sense of American ethnicity underpinned the civic rhetoric. This ethnicity grew out of a sense of isolation that Oscar Handlin calls 'the horror' of rootlessness brought on by the colonists' incessant migration and the ontological meaninglessness of living in alien surroundings. Anthony Smith sees this as a process of group psychology, in which a people seek to achieve a measure of this-worldly immortality through identification with a group rooted in land and kinship. The result is
    ethnogenesis.
     

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    The 1950s was a period when most white Americans were developing a sense of nationalism that transcended ethnicity and fostered a sense of group solidarity that our rulers found threatening. They took measures to put the kibosh on it with the results we see today.

    • Agree: Hibernian
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Dutch Boy

    "The 1950s was a period when most white Americans were developing a sense of nationalism that transcended ethnicity..."

    That sense of nationalism had existed way before that decade.

    "and fostered a sense of group solidarity that our rulers found threatening."

    You mean certain rulers who found it threatening. For example, WASPs were deathly concerned with the infiltration of Eastern/Southern Europeans.

    "They took measures to put the kibosh on it with the results we see today."

    What measures?

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

  43. @Lurker
    @Dave Pinsen

    When someone is said to be 'American' the mental image I have is of a generic white person.

    I'm not sure how many people think any different?

    Replies: @David

    In Honduras the Spanish language equivalent of “North American” can only mean a white American. All the others get a special epithet like Chino or Negro or Indio. They think of the US as a white country with guests, however much they say otherwise once here.

  44. @Jack D
    @Dieter Kief

    Hammerstein is (or was - now it's in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Typically you'd do this when you were living somewhere else - if you live in Berlin it doesn't make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin, but if you lived in some other town then people might call you "Joe from (von) Berlin" to distinguish you from all the other Joes - Joe the Butcher and Joe the Blind Guy, etc. Von Hammerstein doesn't denote a fake claim of nobility, it denotes that Oscar's family was FROM the town of HAMMERSTEIN.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Dieter Kief, @James O'Meara, @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    I know of no such a Hammerstein in the East. Hammerstein as a family name did originate not in the East, but in the West, as far as I know – and as I wrote: A little town near Frankfurt is the place, where the first known Hammerstein was born: Otto in 1002. And right there is still a Hammerstein village right at the Rhine.

    Wikipedia says, the Oskar Hammerstein family came from Stettin at the Baltic Sea.

    Jews did buy surnames in the nineteenth century when it became necessary to have one for everyone. The prizes used to go up with the attractivity of an existing name. This did not happen in Germany though but was quite common in Galizia for example. Usually, richer  Jews afforded more expensive and attractive names, like – Unz – or Diamant or Blumenthal or Gold – the poorer ones had to take lesser names like Hammerstein for example, or even Schlachter (=butcher), or Schweißloch ((Sweathole…) etc….

    https://www.zeit.de/1988/06/habn-sie-nicht-den-kleinen-cohn-gesehn 

    Dietz Bering wrote a decent – if quite self-flagallantly (= inappropriately) titled – book about the Jewish names:  Dietz Bering: Der Name als Stigma. Antisemitismus im Deutschen Alltag 1812 – 1933; Verlag Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 1987; 567 S., 98,– DM. 

    PS

    There are quite a few people named Berliner, almost all of them Jews. That there are not more has nothing to do with Berlin being too big and thus not discriminative enough. – There are many Germans named Hamburger for example, and Hamburg had – almost forever – been the bigger one of the two cities.

    Berliner didn’t work too well, because of the existence of the Berliner Pfannkuchen – nobody wanted to be called like a Doughnut… and, – because Berlin is not old. Most people who moved there had already surnames by the time the city became big (in the late nineteenth century.

    PPS
    Did you get that I was not too serious when writing my first comment? – I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business, which I think is an empty can – unless you make woke use of it – as quite a few people do, unfortunately.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Dieter Kief

    Ahh - all of a sudden, this name popped up in my mind:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olsztyn

    Olsztyn = Allenstein - you might have meant this town when you wrote above about a Hammerstein in the East, Jack D.

    , @Dieter Kief
    @Dieter Kief

    Ahh - all of a sudden, this name popped up in my mind:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olsztyn

    Olsztyn = Allenstein - you might have meant this town when you wrote above about a Hammerstein in the East, Jack D.

    , @Bill Jones
    @Dieter Kief

    " I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business"

    "Fellow Whites" springs to mind.

    , @Jack D
    @Dieter Kief

    Google Czarne.

  45. @Jack D
    @Hamilton was right2

    Cohan, not Cohen. George M. Cohan was Irish, not Jewish.

    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don't even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn't have even a glimmer of recognition.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @D.I.e_y.t, @Dan Hayes

    After dropping out of overall mass media consumption 20 plus years ago, I now find I have no current reference points with which to make light interpersonal connections. This has made for a quite solitary and isolated existence, the bleakness of which is amplified by the knowledge that most are blind and clueless by concious choice. They don’t want to talk, or even think about much beyond sport and current pop culture. I have become an outlier, a foreigner upon the same soil I’ve inhabited for over a half century. Mmmm tasty black pills abound, jajajajaja sorry

  46. @Jack D
    @Hamilton was right2

    Cohan, not Cohen. George M. Cohan was Irish, not Jewish.

    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don't even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn't have even a glimmer of recognition.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @D.I.e_y.t, @Dan Hayes

    “Cohan, not Cohen” was a line in John Ford’s “The Quiet Man”.

  47. @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D


    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

     

    I know of no such a Hammerstein in the East. Hammerstein as a family name did originate not in the East, but in the West, as far as I know - and as I wrote: A little town near Frankfurt is the place, where the first known Hammerstein was born: Otto in 1002. And right there is still a Hammerstein village right at the Rhine.

    Wikipedia says, the Oskar Hammerstein family came from Stettin at the Baltic Sea.


    Jews did buy surnames in the nineteenth century when it became necessary to have one for everyone. The prizes used to go up with the attractivity of an existing name. This did not happen in Germany though but was quite common in Galizia for example. Usually, richer  Jews afforded more expensive and attractive names, like - Unz - or Diamant or Blumenthal or Gold - the poorer ones had to take lesser names like Hammerstein for example, or even Schlachter (=butcher), or Schweißloch ((Sweathole...) etc....

    https://www.zeit.de/1988/06/habn-sie-nicht-den-kleinen-cohn-gesehn 

    Dietz Bering wrote a decent - if quite self-flagallantly (= inappropriately) titled - book about the Jewish names:  Dietz Bering: Der Name als Stigma. Antisemitismus im Deutschen Alltag 1812 – 1933; Verlag Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 1987; 567 S., 98,– DM. 

    PS

    There are quite a few people named Berliner, almost all of them Jews. That there are not more has nothing to do with Berlin being too big and thus not discriminative enough. - There are many Germans named Hamburger for example, and Hamburg had - almost forever - been the bigger one of the two cities.

    Berliner didn't work too well, because of the existence of the Berliner Pfannkuchen - nobody wanted to be called like a Doughnut... and, - because Berlin is not old. Most people who moved there had already surnames by the time the city became big (in the late nineteenth century.

    PPS
    Did you get that I was not too serious when writing my first comment? - I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business, which I think is an empty can - unless you make woke use of it - as quite a few people do, unfortunately.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Dieter Kief, @Bill Jones, @Jack D

    Ahh – all of a sudden, this name popped up in my mind:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olsztyn

    Olsztyn = Allenstein – you might have meant this town when you wrote above about a Hammerstein in the East, Jack D.

  48. @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D


    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

     

    I know of no such a Hammerstein in the East. Hammerstein as a family name did originate not in the East, but in the West, as far as I know - and as I wrote: A little town near Frankfurt is the place, where the first known Hammerstein was born: Otto in 1002. And right there is still a Hammerstein village right at the Rhine.

    Wikipedia says, the Oskar Hammerstein family came from Stettin at the Baltic Sea.


    Jews did buy surnames in the nineteenth century when it became necessary to have one for everyone. The prizes used to go up with the attractivity of an existing name. This did not happen in Germany though but was quite common in Galizia for example. Usually, richer  Jews afforded more expensive and attractive names, like - Unz - or Diamant or Blumenthal or Gold - the poorer ones had to take lesser names like Hammerstein for example, or even Schlachter (=butcher), or Schweißloch ((Sweathole...) etc....

    https://www.zeit.de/1988/06/habn-sie-nicht-den-kleinen-cohn-gesehn 

    Dietz Bering wrote a decent - if quite self-flagallantly (= inappropriately) titled - book about the Jewish names:  Dietz Bering: Der Name als Stigma. Antisemitismus im Deutschen Alltag 1812 – 1933; Verlag Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 1987; 567 S., 98,– DM. 

    PS

    There are quite a few people named Berliner, almost all of them Jews. That there are not more has nothing to do with Berlin being too big and thus not discriminative enough. - There are many Germans named Hamburger for example, and Hamburg had - almost forever - been the bigger one of the two cities.

    Berliner didn't work too well, because of the existence of the Berliner Pfannkuchen - nobody wanted to be called like a Doughnut... and, - because Berlin is not old. Most people who moved there had already surnames by the time the city became big (in the late nineteenth century.

    PPS
    Did you get that I was not too serious when writing my first comment? - I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business, which I think is an empty can - unless you make woke use of it - as quite a few people do, unfortunately.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Dieter Kief, @Bill Jones, @Jack D

    Ahh – all of a sudden, this name popped up in my mind:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olsztyn

    Olsztyn = Allenstein – you might have meant this town when you wrote above about a Hammerstein in the East, Jack D.

  49. @Dave Pinsen
    I was thinking of this era when reading The Germ Theory Of Disease’s comment in the Hamilton thread, specifically, this part:

    Before all the present racial nastiness burst forth, it was possible to see the Obama presidency as the formal entree of POC into the broader, normative context of official Americana — viz, as real, actual Americans and not just tedious exotics that the Americans petulantly put up with. A similar thing famously happened with the election of JFK, which signified that the white-ethnic Ellis Island crowd (not just the Irish, but the Jews and other ethnics) had been officially “made” as Americans, had been jumped into the gang.
     
    The American ethnogenesis of Ellis Island immigrants really started closer to the turn of the 20th Century than JFK’s election. Israel Zangwill’s play The Melting Pot was first staged in 1908, per Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Melting_Pot_(play) ):

    Replies: @Lurker, @Corvinus, @James O'Meara

    “A similar thing famously happened with the election of JFK, which signified that the white-ethnic Ellis Island crowd (not just the Irish, but the Jews and other ethnics) had been officially “made” as Americans, had been jumped into the gang.”

    Another view:

    “That’s what happens when you let the n*ggers vote. They get together with the Jews and Catholics, and put an Irish bleeding heart in the White House.” — Guy Bannister, at least according to Stone’s JFK.

  50. @Anonymous
    @Amerimutt Golems


    Another ‘Plastic’ Paddy
     
    When the Irish lost the faith they lost everything, including Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/BaronStrucker/status/1278097654141108224?s=20

    Replies: @Jake, @James O'Meara

    Something to that, but I think the word “appointed” in the tweet is important; I assume these were appointed by Woke elites, not voters.

  51. @Mr McKenna
    The Irish will find out they're expendable, when the time comes. Used to be, they were consumed with the fighting spirit, but looking at Ireland today it appears to have been bred out of them.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Jake, @John Derbyshire, @S. Anonyia

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @S. Anonyia

    The west of Ireland is most certainly dying. It’s being murdered, actually. The local pubs are closing in their hundreds, there are no jobs, and the national government (spit) is settling refugees and Africans there as fast as they can. I’ve been going there for fifty years now and I know what I’m talking about.

    , @Matra
    @S. Anonyia

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    The USA in "the 90s/early 2000s" was already an abortion of a country. Ireland is going the same way but even faster.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    , @Clifford Brown
    @S. Anonyia

    You are the clueless one. Ireland was downright culturally reactionary until the 1990's. Now it is a lost cause. A nation that sold its soul to be a high-tech tax haven.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

  52. @Jack D
    @Dieter Kief

    Hammerstein is (or was - now it's in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Typically you'd do this when you were living somewhere else - if you live in Berlin it doesn't make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin, but if you lived in some other town then people might call you "Joe from (von) Berlin" to distinguish you from all the other Joes - Joe the Butcher and Joe the Blind Guy, etc. Von Hammerstein doesn't denote a fake claim of nobility, it denotes that Oscar's family was FROM the town of HAMMERSTEIN.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Dieter Kief, @James O'Meara, @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    “if you live in Berlin it doesn’t make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin,”

    Even that Irish-American JFK.

  53. @Hamilton was right2
    108 years later, and all of those names well known enough to be in a song are long forgotten, except for four of the Jews (Cohan, Hammerstein, Loew, and Shubert) who are barely remembered. Loew will be entirely forgotten in a decade. Billy Murray is entirely forgotten.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Reg Cæsar

    four of the Jews (Cohan, Hammerstein, Loew, and Shubert)

    Cohan, as others have jumped on noted, was Irish. Hammerstein will be connected with his grandson, whose mother, like Ethel Merman’s, Jay Leno’s, and Donald Trump’s, was Scottish.

  54. @slumber_j
    Brings to mind another period ditty--this one by the Irish, about the Jews and the Swedes. I've quoted these lyrics here before, from a song my grandfather recalled from the olden days in St. Paul. The chorus is sung in a comically broad Swedish accent:

    Ten thousand Jews are selling booze
    without the state's permission
    to fill the needs of a million Swedes
    who voted for Prohibition.

    [Chorus]

    I come from Minnesota
    the land I love so well.
    I voted for Volstead:
    Yod dammit to hell!!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Hibernian, @Mike Zwick

    I come from Minnesota
    the land I love so well.
    I voted for Volstead:
    Yod dammit to hell!!

    Poor Volstead. He wasn’t much of a prohibitionist himself. He just carried the water for others. Now his name is forever linked with the hatchet-faced harridans. (And women’s suffrage.) Be careful whom you do favors for!

    He retired to Granite Falls, where locals tried to recruit him in an effort to enact post-Prohibition dry laws. He’d have nothing to do with it.

    (Many states have a monopoly on liquor sales. Minnesota may be unique in delegating this to municipalities. A few, such as tony suburb Edina and humbler Richfield next door, take it up. Would looting them be “vandalizing public property”?)

    I’d read that neither Orval Faubus nor George Wallace were all that big on segregation themselves– they were successful enough to practice it without help from the state– but they knew damned well what their humble constituents wanted. They were Volsteads.

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    @Reg Cæsar

    Ironic indeed, since Scandinavians like the sauce quite well (an estimated 50% of Norwegian households operate illegal stills). I've drunk both illegal akevitt and beer made by my Norwegian cousins.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  55. @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D


    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

     

    I know of no such a Hammerstein in the East. Hammerstein as a family name did originate not in the East, but in the West, as far as I know - and as I wrote: A little town near Frankfurt is the place, where the first known Hammerstein was born: Otto in 1002. And right there is still a Hammerstein village right at the Rhine.

    Wikipedia says, the Oskar Hammerstein family came from Stettin at the Baltic Sea.


    Jews did buy surnames in the nineteenth century when it became necessary to have one for everyone. The prizes used to go up with the attractivity of an existing name. This did not happen in Germany though but was quite common in Galizia for example. Usually, richer  Jews afforded more expensive and attractive names, like - Unz - or Diamant or Blumenthal or Gold - the poorer ones had to take lesser names like Hammerstein for example, or even Schlachter (=butcher), or Schweißloch ((Sweathole...) etc....

    https://www.zeit.de/1988/06/habn-sie-nicht-den-kleinen-cohn-gesehn 

    Dietz Bering wrote a decent - if quite self-flagallantly (= inappropriately) titled - book about the Jewish names:  Dietz Bering: Der Name als Stigma. Antisemitismus im Deutschen Alltag 1812 – 1933; Verlag Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 1987; 567 S., 98,– DM. 

    PS

    There are quite a few people named Berliner, almost all of them Jews. That there are not more has nothing to do with Berlin being too big and thus not discriminative enough. - There are many Germans named Hamburger for example, and Hamburg had - almost forever - been the bigger one of the two cities.

    Berliner didn't work too well, because of the existence of the Berliner Pfannkuchen - nobody wanted to be called like a Doughnut... and, - because Berlin is not old. Most people who moved there had already surnames by the time the city became big (in the late nineteenth century.

    PPS
    Did you get that I was not too serious when writing my first comment? - I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business, which I think is an empty can - unless you make woke use of it - as quite a few people do, unfortunately.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Dieter Kief, @Bill Jones, @Jack D

    ” I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business”

    “Fellow Whites” springs to mind.

  56. @Dieter Kief
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Jewish name Hammerstein was a form a cultural appropriation because it originated in the German Nobility/Gentry of the Hammersteins. Otto von Hammerstein, for example, born 1002 near Frankfurt/M.

    The most interesting of all of them was the leading Wehrmacht-General Knut von Hammerstein-Equord who resigned in the thirties because he thought, that Hitler was nuts - he is being portrayed by Hans Magnus Enzensberger in his fabulous historical essay Hammerstein:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_von_Hammerstein-Equord

      
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(Adelsgeschlecht)  

    Replies: @Jack D, @Old Palo Altan

    The Baron (a Catholic) was in many ways admirable. Nevertheless I am unable to entirely approve of a man whose methods of child-rearing led to his two daughters leaving the Church and becoming hardline (and life-long) Communists before they were hardly out of their teens, well before anyone much considered Adolf Hitler to be even a possible, much less a serious threat.
    In other words they were Communists out of pure conviction (or maybe just hatred of their family background) and remained so after Communism had revealed itself to all but the most blind as the most murderous and soul-destroying movement the world has ever seen (and is, alas, still seeing).

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Old Palo Altan


    The Baron (a Catholic) was in many ways admirable. Nevertheless, I am unable to entirely approve of a man whose methods of child-rearing led to his two daughters leaving the Church and becoming hardline (and life-long) Communists
     
    He was a footloose man, this Kurt Gebhard Adolf Philipp Freiherr von Hammerstein-Equord. His knack for Russia - which led to secret maneuvers he held together with the Russians in the 1930ies (!), which were grounded in his hope, that maybe one could overcome the confrontation between Russia and Germany - this almost kamikaze like decision he made as the leading General of the Wehrmacht especially might have been the root cause, which led to the knack for Communism of two of his daughters. - Which they both later paid a very high price for, but still (that was the father and the mother - and maybe Lot's example, too) - did not regret (= did not look back at (that would be the Lot-root in their behavior - hard to be discerned from the hard-headedness of their father (which in the case of Hammerstein-Equord came along with his being a footloose man, as I wrote above**** - - - full circle (cf. Cusanus....)).


    Since you did once praise the Southern roots-folk-music, you might even - at least understand - why I now speak of - - - - ****Chris Kristofferson and his song The Silver Tongued Devil and I on The Pilgrim...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ATNElWL8G4 

    Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord too was a walking contradiction - partly truth and partly fiction : Chris Kristofferson nailed this Archetypus of the impenetrable (= impure/shimmering/oscillating) hero (C. G. Jung) here  - - - - heartwarmingly well.

    Hans Magnus Enzensberger did a great job in explaining this very aspect of the existence of von Hammerstein-Equord in his Hammerstein-book. - Wich is not only a portrait of him, but also a family portrait, btw.

    PS

    Monday I encountered the exact same outstandingly beautiful day as last year, - when I rode the bike near/in the Bodman woods with a dream-like tail-wind - also: - just like last year. The difference was: Now, when being on the road, I did think about our conversation about this absolutely beautiful bike-ride - in July 2019. - So - thanks for your super dry comment on the Baronesse of B, you made then (oh - you asked me that last year and I thought I should not answer it, but now I can say that much: It was not the Baronesse of Bodman I had been talking about.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

  57. @Jack D
    @Dieter Kief

    Hammerstein is (or was - now it's in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Typically you'd do this when you were living somewhere else - if you live in Berlin it doesn't make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin, but if you lived in some other town then people might call you "Joe from (von) Berlin" to distinguish you from all the other Joes - Joe the Butcher and Joe the Blind Guy, etc. Von Hammerstein doesn't denote a fake claim of nobility, it denotes that Oscar's family was FROM the town of HAMMERSTEIN.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Dieter Kief, @James O'Meara, @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    Jack, I usually enjoy your all-knowing lectures (seriously).
    On the other hand you might have paused for a moment’s reflection before lecturing an actual German about how his language works, particularly given that you have admitted in the past to having no more than a passing acquaintance with it.

    And surely you have heard of both Isaiah and Irving Berlin?

  58. @Bugg
    @RichardTaylor

    Have a hard time taking any white guy seriously when his son, "Chet Haze" is an aspiring rapper.Kid was raised in Hollywood and of course talks as if he grew up in Compton or Bed Stuy.

    Speaking of high culture, The Woke are now on the rampage to cancel "Hamilton" due to it's portrayal of slave owners .

    Replies: @Hibernian

    Speaking of high culture, The Woke are now on the rampage to cancel “Hamilton” due to it’s portrayal of slave owners .

    After it’s made a big pile of money due to the hysteria surrounding it and the high ticket prices.

  59. @Arthur Biggs
    Most Irish-Americans don't agree with Mr. Murray. Maybe back in the early part of the 20th Century in NYC there were some common bonds between the two groups of immigrants, but there are no bonds that remain.

    Replies: @Hibernian

    There are some mixed marriages; five in my immediate and extended family, two of which ended in divorce after at least 10 years; two boomer couples who are still married after 20 plus years, one Gen x couple with two children have been married 5-10 years. The Irish parties are not full blooded Irish, although my girl cousin who divorced her Jewish husband after 25 years is the daughter of a father, my Uncle John (an in-law, not my blood uncle) who claims to be, even though he’s part German. (Her mother, my Mother’s sister, is 100% Irish.)

  60. @slumber_j
    Brings to mind another period ditty--this one by the Irish, about the Jews and the Swedes. I've quoted these lyrics here before, from a song my grandfather recalled from the olden days in St. Paul. The chorus is sung in a comically broad Swedish accent:

    Ten thousand Jews are selling booze
    without the state's permission
    to fill the needs of a million Swedes
    who voted for Prohibition.

    [Chorus]

    I come from Minnesota
    the land I love so well.
    I voted for Volstead:
    Yod dammit to hell!!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Hibernian, @Mike Zwick

    Liquor is sold wholesale, and retail in packages, by the Jewish community, and by the drink by the Irish. (I grew up in a state, Iowa, that legalized selling liquor (anything stronger than beer) by the drink in 1962.)

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Hibernian

    Liquor is sold wholesale, and retail in packages, by the Jewish community, and by the drink by the Irish. (I grew up in a state, Iowa, that legalized selling liquor (anything stronger than beer) by the drink in 1962.)

    I went to yeshiva with a guy whose father owned half a dozen bars in NYC. They all had vaguely Irish names though.

    Replies: @Jack D

  61. @slumber_j
    Brings to mind another period ditty--this one by the Irish, about the Jews and the Swedes. I've quoted these lyrics here before, from a song my grandfather recalled from the olden days in St. Paul. The chorus is sung in a comically broad Swedish accent:

    Ten thousand Jews are selling booze
    without the state's permission
    to fill the needs of a million Swedes
    who voted for Prohibition.

    [Chorus]

    I come from Minnesota
    the land I love so well.
    I voted for Volstead:
    Yod dammit to hell!!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Hibernian, @Mike Zwick

    Swedes are well known as drunks but the Norwegians are known to be teetotalers.

  62. JMcG says:
    @S. Anonyia
    @Mr McKenna

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    Replies: @JMcG, @Matra, @Clifford Brown

    The west of Ireland is most certainly dying. It’s being murdered, actually. The local pubs are closing in their hundreds, there are no jobs, and the national government (spit) is settling refugees and Africans there as fast as they can. I’ve been going there for fifty years now and I know what I’m talking about.

  63. @Old Palo Altan
    @Dieter Kief

    The Baron (a Catholic) was in many ways admirable. Nevertheless I am unable to entirely approve of a man whose methods of child-rearing led to his two daughters leaving the Church and becoming hardline (and life-long) Communists before they were hardly out of their teens, well before anyone much considered Adolf Hitler to be even a possible, much less a serious threat.
    In other words they were Communists out of pure conviction (or maybe just hatred of their family background) and remained so after Communism had revealed itself to all but the most blind as the most murderous and soul-destroying movement the world has ever seen (and is, alas, still seeing).

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    The Baron (a Catholic) was in many ways admirable. Nevertheless, I am unable to entirely approve of a man whose methods of child-rearing led to his two daughters leaving the Church and becoming hardline (and life-long) Communists

    He was a footloose man, this Kurt Gebhard Adolf Philipp Freiherr von Hammerstein-Equord. His knack for Russia – which led to secret maneuvers he held together with the Russians in the 1930ies (!), which were grounded in his hope, that maybe one could overcome the confrontation between Russia and Germany – this almost kamikaze like decision he made as the leading General of the Wehrmacht especially might have been the root cause, which led to the knack for Communism of two of his daughters. – Which they both later paid a very high price for, but still (that was the father and the mother – and maybe Lot’s example, too) – did not regret (= did not look back at (that would be the Lot-root in their behavior – hard to be discerned from the hard-headedness of their father (which in the case of Hammerstein-Equord came along with his being a footloose man, as I wrote above**** – – – full circle (cf. Cusanus….)).

    Since you did once praise the Southern roots-folk-music, you might even – at least understand – why I now speak of – – – – ****Chris Kristofferson and his song The Silver Tongued Devil and I on The Pilgrim

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ATNElWL8G4 

    Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord too was a walking contradiction – partly truth and partly fiction : Chris Kristofferson nailed this Archetypus of the impenetrable (= impure/shimmering/oscillating) hero (C. G. Jung) here  – – – – heartwarmingly well.

    Hans Magnus Enzensberger did a great job in explaining this very aspect of the existence of von Hammerstein-Equord in his Hammerstein-book. – Wich is not only a portrait of him, but also a family portrait, btw.

    PS

    Monday I encountered the exact same outstandingly beautiful day as last year, – when I rode the bike near/in the Bodman woods with a dream-like tail-wind – also: – just like last year. The difference was: Now, when being on the road, I did think about our conversation about this absolutely beautiful bike-ride – in July 2019. – So – thanks for your super dry comment on the Baronesse of B, you made then (oh – you asked me that last year and I thought I should not answer it, but now I can say that much: It was not the Baronesse of Bodman I had been talking about.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    @Dieter Kief

    I've just listened to a seven minute interview with Enzensberger about this book. Once again Dieter you have put me in touch with a most engaging person.
    I've ordered his book on, as you say, the family Hammerstein (not the general merely) and await it with anticipation.
    I was also taken by his description of Munich as the best place these days for writing books: I am just finishing the diaries of Gregorovius the historian of medieval Rome who is about to retire to Munich because his great work is finished and there is nothing more for him to do!

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  64. @S. Anonyia
    @Mr McKenna

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    Replies: @JMcG, @Matra, @Clifford Brown

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    The USA in “the 90s/early 2000s” was already an abortion of a country. Ireland is going the same way but even faster.

    • Agree: HammerJack
    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @Matra

    Well, I am younger than most of you commenting, so for me the 90s/2000s seem pretty wholesome!

    Certainly better than today.

    More of the commentators here need to get on board with small victories and incremental goals instead of just bemoaning the lack of perfection. That's what the other side does, though they've certainly taken a massive leap in the past 5 years fueled by some kind of post-Protestant religious revival.

    Rome wasn't built in a day....

    Replies: @Sam Malone

  65. https://books.google.com/books?id=OPCTHC5AAbwC&pg=PA152#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Wikipedia links to this book’s discussion of the vogue for multiethnic songs in that era, including “It’s Tough When Izzy Rosenstein Loves Genevieve Malone” (1910), “My Yiddisha Colleen” (1911), “Yidisha Luck and Irisha Love” (1911), “Moysha Machree” (1916), “There’s a Little Bit of Irish in Sadie Cohen” (1916) and “Kosher Kitty Kelly” (1926).

    The footnote there is to William H. A. Williams, Twas Only an Irishman’s Dream: The Image of Ireland and the Irish in American Popular Song Lyrics, 1800-1920.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @benjaminl

    Abie's Irish Rose was a famous play on this theme. It was made into a movie two or three times.

  66. @Anonymous
    @Jack D


    How many of our entertainers will be known in a century? I don’t even know half of them now. The other day on Jeopardy there was a question about someone on SNL and the name drew a total blank with me. I didn’t have even a glimmer of recognition.
     
    Was the category Harvard Lampoon? The answer was Colin Jost (below: Jost is white guy on left)

    https://media.popculture.com/2019/12/snl-weekend-update-colin-jost-michael-che-saturday-night-live-nb-20076708-640x320.jpeg

    Not funny. Typical boring snarky unfunny political “humor”. I only started hearing/knowing about him when he was attacking Trump (how edgy).

    Replies: @benjaminl

    Hey, Colin Jost has a new book out. Let’s see how his new book is covered in the NYT… Oh wow, guess what, it looks like drawing invidious inferences based on someone’s racial identity and facial physiognomy is OK now. Who knew?

    But Jost knows many viewers believe he has coasted on his annoyingly clean-cut looks that, despite his underlying earnestness, can give him an air of insincerity….

    As he writes in his memoir, “Some of you think you know me, but you’re actually just thinking of the villain from an ’80s movie who tries to steal the hero’s girlfriend by challenging him to a ski race.” (In acknowledgment of this, he titled the book “A Very Punchable Face.”)..

    What has succeeded for them, Che said, are recurring bits like the one where they read jokes sight-unseen that they have written for each other (and which Che often writes to make Jost sound racist).

    “I guess if you look at Colin and you don’t know him, if someone told you that he was a racist, you’d be like, yeah, maybe,” Che said. “He couldn’t be further from it, which is why it’s so funny.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/books/colin-jost-a-very-punchable-face-snl-weekend-update.html

    • Replies: @HammerJack
    @benjaminl

    Prejudice based on what someone looks like is the very worst thing in the world, unless they're a white male. In which case it's only natural.

  67. @benjaminl
    @Anonymous

    Hey, Colin Jost has a new book out. Let's see how his new book is covered in the NYT... Oh wow, guess what, it looks like drawing invidious inferences based on someone's racial identity and facial physiognomy is OK now. Who knew?


    But Jost knows many viewers believe he has coasted on his annoyingly clean-cut looks that, despite his underlying earnestness, can give him an air of insincerity....

    As he writes in his memoir, “Some of you think you know me, but you’re actually just thinking of the villain from an ’80s movie who tries to steal the hero’s girlfriend by challenging him to a ski race.” (In acknowledgment of this, he titled the book “A Very Punchable Face.”)..

    What has succeeded for them, Che said, are recurring bits like the one where they read jokes sight-unseen that they have written for each other (and which Che often writes to make Jost sound racist).

    “I guess if you look at Colin and you don’t know him, if someone told you that he was a racist, you’d be like, yeah, maybe,” Che said. “He couldn’t be further from it, which is why it’s so funny.
     

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/books/colin-jost-a-very-punchable-face-snl-weekend-update.html

    Replies: @HammerJack

    Prejudice based on what someone looks like is the very worst thing in the world, unless they’re a white male. In which case it’s only natural.

  68. @Chrisnonymous
    This is the point I used to make when people talked about the black contribution to American culture. Outside of entertainment, what? (Now, I just try to re-direct the conversation.)

    Of course, the Jews gave us a lot more than Seinfeld.

    Replies: @James O'Meara

    I sense you mean to minimize their contribution by limiting it to “entertainment.” But whatever your personal opinion, entertainment is a Big Deal. Not just as a big part of the economy, but projecting American “soft power” worldwide.

    One of several reasons the Cold War required America to desegregate and civil right itself to death was to make it easier for American pop culture — largely black or black influenced — to spread around the world, without Soviet responses along the lines of “What about the plight of blacks in Alabama?”

    Arguably, as in much else, our imperialist elites sacrificed the actual population to pursue their grand schemes.

    Louis Armstrong was appointed Goodwill Ambassador and sent around the world with Dizzy Gillespie and others. I’ve proposed that to counter moves to blast Rushmore, or add someone like Harriet Tubman, Louis be added to Mt. Rushmore: one head out of five is about right by population, he was born in 1900, the right period, and he was born on the 4th of July. Above all, it celebrates a positive contribution, America’s only original cultural form, not whining about slavery or racism.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @James O'Meara

    Entertainment is a Big Deal, but not in the way that, for example, antibiotics are a Big Deal. Without hiphop, you would just listen to some other crappy white music like grunge, none the wiser and so none the worse off. Without antibiotics, many people would be dead and there is no substitute.

    So, if you're measuring contribution in the sense of "how did we get to where we are?", yes, entertainment is important. However, this kind of thinking has biases like presentism and survivorship and doesn't take opportunity cost into account. If you're measuring contribution by asking "what made us objectively better off?", entertainment doesn't have much value.

    You're going to object that anti-communist soft power was objectively good, but you're just failing to get my point. In an alternate universe without black music, American mid-20th century soft power would have just looked like this....

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=51EQGXhfHO4

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oyAAhjGTNvQ

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ylhy7WgFdUM

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KUpkBL1ezKM

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

  69. @S. Anonyia
    @Mr McKenna

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    Replies: @JMcG, @Matra, @Clifford Brown

    You are the clueless one. Ireland was downright culturally reactionary until the 1990’s. Now it is a lost cause. A nation that sold its soul to be a high-tech tax haven.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    @Clifford Brown

    Seemed like less of a lost cause than most of the U.S, Canada, and Great Britain.

    There is no such thing as a totally reactionary developed country right now. Even Russia isn't really one.

    Accelerationism is dumb. Right now we should focus on stopping the lawlessness and cultural/economic destruction that the new woke religion of the West has wrought. That's not going to be accomplished by purity spirals.

  70. @Matra
    @S. Anonyia

    You been to Ireland? I have- it’s not dead, especially in the Western parts. It was the most wholesome experience of my life. Culturally it reminded me of the 90s/early 2000s in the US.

    The USA in "the 90s/early 2000s" was already an abortion of a country. Ireland is going the same way but even faster.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    Well, I am younger than most of you commenting, so for me the 90s/2000s seem pretty wholesome!

    Certainly better than today.

    More of the commentators here need to get on board with small victories and incremental goals instead of just bemoaning the lack of perfection. That’s what the other side does, though they’ve certainly taken a massive leap in the past 5 years fueled by some kind of post-Protestant religious revival.

    Rome wasn’t built in a day….

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
    @S. Anonyia


    Well, I am younger than most of you commenting, so for me the 90s/2000s seem pretty wholesome!
     
    No excuse for not knowing that on the whole they weren't wholesome, at all, by our standards or anyone else's. Or for failing to comprehend that the lamentable circumstances of that time led naturally to the even worse current reality. As they will in Ireland too.

    So Ireland is 20 years behind the U.S. in falling apart and being taken from its people? Well golly, then no matter how bad it keeps getting there, it'll never be as bad as here!!

  71. @Clifford Brown
    @S. Anonyia

    You are the clueless one. Ireland was downright culturally reactionary until the 1990's. Now it is a lost cause. A nation that sold its soul to be a high-tech tax haven.

    Replies: @S. Anonyia

    Seemed like less of a lost cause than most of the U.S, Canada, and Great Britain.

    There is no such thing as a totally reactionary developed country right now. Even Russia isn’t really one.

    Accelerationism is dumb. Right now we should focus on stopping the lawlessness and cultural/economic destruction that the new woke religion of the West has wrought. That’s not going to be accomplished by purity spirals.

  72. @James O'Meara
    @Chrisnonymous

    I sense you mean to minimize their contribution by limiting it to "entertainment." But whatever your personal opinion, entertainment is a Big Deal. Not just as a big part of the economy, but projecting American "soft power" worldwide.

    One of several reasons the Cold War required America to desegregate and civil right itself to death was to make it easier for American pop culture -- largely black or black influenced -- to spread around the world, without Soviet responses along the lines of "What about the plight of blacks in Alabama?"

    Arguably, as in much else, our imperialist elites sacrificed the actual population to pursue their grand schemes.

    Louis Armstrong was appointed Goodwill Ambassador and sent around the world with Dizzy Gillespie and others. I've proposed that to counter moves to blast Rushmore, or add someone like Harriet Tubman, Louis be added to Mt. Rushmore: one head out of five is about right by population, he was born in 1900, the right period, and he was born on the 4th of July. Above all, it celebrates a positive contribution, America's only original cultural form, not whining about slavery or racism.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    Entertainment is a Big Deal, but not in the way that, for example, antibiotics are a Big Deal. Without hiphop, you would just listen to some other crappy white music like grunge, none the wiser and so none the worse off. Without antibiotics, many people would be dead and there is no substitute.

    So, if you’re measuring contribution in the sense of “how did we get to where we are?”, yes, entertainment is important. However, this kind of thinking has biases like presentism and survivorship and doesn’t take opportunity cost into account. If you’re measuring contribution by asking “what made us objectively better off?”, entertainment doesn’t have much value.

    You’re going to object that anti-communist soft power was objectively good, but you’re just failing to get my point. In an alternate universe without black music, American mid-20th century soft power would have just looked like this….

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    @Chrisnonymous

    "It's time for a cowboy to dwwwweeeeeeeam....."

  73. @Chrisnonymous
    @James O'Meara

    Entertainment is a Big Deal, but not in the way that, for example, antibiotics are a Big Deal. Without hiphop, you would just listen to some other crappy white music like grunge, none the wiser and so none the worse off. Without antibiotics, many people would be dead and there is no substitute.

    So, if you're measuring contribution in the sense of "how did we get to where we are?", yes, entertainment is important. However, this kind of thinking has biases like presentism and survivorship and doesn't take opportunity cost into account. If you're measuring contribution by asking "what made us objectively better off?", entertainment doesn't have much value.

    You're going to object that anti-communist soft power was objectively good, but you're just failing to get my point. In an alternate universe without black music, American mid-20th century soft power would have just looked like this....

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=51EQGXhfHO4

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oyAAhjGTNvQ

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ylhy7WgFdUM

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KUpkBL1ezKM

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    “It’s time for a cowboy to dwwwweeeeeeeam…..”

  74. @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D


    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

     

    I know of no such a Hammerstein in the East. Hammerstein as a family name did originate not in the East, but in the West, as far as I know - and as I wrote: A little town near Frankfurt is the place, where the first known Hammerstein was born: Otto in 1002. And right there is still a Hammerstein village right at the Rhine.

    Wikipedia says, the Oskar Hammerstein family came from Stettin at the Baltic Sea.


    Jews did buy surnames in the nineteenth century when it became necessary to have one for everyone. The prizes used to go up with the attractivity of an existing name. This did not happen in Germany though but was quite common in Galizia for example. Usually, richer  Jews afforded more expensive and attractive names, like - Unz - or Diamant or Blumenthal or Gold - the poorer ones had to take lesser names like Hammerstein for example, or even Schlachter (=butcher), or Schweißloch ((Sweathole...) etc....

    https://www.zeit.de/1988/06/habn-sie-nicht-den-kleinen-cohn-gesehn 

    Dietz Bering wrote a decent - if quite self-flagallantly (= inappropriately) titled - book about the Jewish names:  Dietz Bering: Der Name als Stigma. Antisemitismus im Deutschen Alltag 1812 – 1933; Verlag Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 1987; 567 S., 98,– DM. 

    PS

    There are quite a few people named Berliner, almost all of them Jews. That there are not more has nothing to do with Berlin being too big and thus not discriminative enough. - There are many Germans named Hamburger for example, and Hamburg had - almost forever - been the bigger one of the two cities.

    Berliner didn't work too well, because of the existence of the Berliner Pfannkuchen - nobody wanted to be called like a Doughnut... and, - because Berlin is not old. Most people who moved there had already surnames by the time the city became big (in the late nineteenth century.

    PPS
    Did you get that I was not too serious when writing my first comment? - I was aiming at those Jews who are knee-deep in the cultural appropriation business, which I think is an empty can - unless you make woke use of it - as quite a few people do, unfortunately.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief, @Dieter Kief, @Bill Jones, @Jack D

    Google Czarne.

  75. @Hibernian
    @slumber_j

    Liquor is sold wholesale, and retail in packages, by the Jewish community, and by the drink by the Irish. (I grew up in a state, Iowa, that legalized selling liquor (anything stronger than beer) by the drink in 1962.)

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Liquor is sold wholesale, and retail in packages, by the Jewish community, and by the drink by the Irish. (I grew up in a state, Iowa, that legalized selling liquor (anything stronger than beer) by the drink in 1962.)

    I went to yeshiva with a guy whose father owned half a dozen bars in NYC. They all had vaguely Irish names though.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @kaganovitch

    Back in the Old Country, tavern keeper was a common Jewish occupation. In America, owning a liquor store was a more common occupation than keeping bar for immigrant Jews but when I was 18 I worked at a place owned by one of my father's friends that was both a liquor store AND a bar. I worked on the liquor store side.

    Replies: @JMcG

  76. @Reg Cæsar
    @slumber_j


    I come from Minnesota
    the land I love so well.
    I voted for Volstead:
    Yod dammit to hell!!
     
    Poor Volstead. He wasn't much of a prohibitionist himself. He just carried the water for others. Now his name is forever linked with the hatchet-faced harridans. (And women's suffrage.) Be careful whom you do favors for!

    He retired to Granite Falls, where locals tried to recruit him in an effort to enact post-Prohibition dry laws. He'd have nothing to do with it.

    (Many states have a monopoly on liquor sales. Minnesota may be unique in delegating this to municipalities. A few, such as tony suburb Edina and humbler Richfield next door, take it up. Would looting them be "vandalizing public property"?)

    I'd read that neither Orval Faubus nor George Wallace were all that big on segregation themselves-- they were successful enough to practice it without help from the state-- but they knew damned well what their humble constituents wanted. They were Volsteads.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    Ironic indeed, since Scandinavians like the sauce quite well (an estimated 50% of Norwegian households operate illegal stills). I’ve drunk both illegal akevitt and beer made by my Norwegian cousins.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Dutch Boy

    Minnesota defended her ban on liquor sales to Indians all the way to the US Supreme Court.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

  77. @benjaminl
    https://books.google.com/books?id=OPCTHC5AAbwC&pg=PA152#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Wikipedia links to this book's discussion of the vogue for multiethnic songs in that era, including "It's Tough When Izzy Rosenstein Loves Genevieve Malone" (1910), "My Yiddisha Colleen" (1911), "Yidisha Luck and Irisha Love" (1911), "Moysha Machree" (1916), "There's a Little Bit of Irish in Sadie Cohen" (1916) and "Kosher Kitty Kelly" (1926).

    The footnote there is to William H. A. Williams, Twas Only an Irishman's Dream: The Image of Ireland and the Irish in American Popular Song Lyrics, 1800-1920.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Abie’s Irish Rose was a famous play on this theme. It was made into a movie two or three times.

  78. @Dutch Boy
    @Reg Cæsar

    Ironic indeed, since Scandinavians like the sauce quite well (an estimated 50% of Norwegian households operate illegal stills). I've drunk both illegal akevitt and beer made by my Norwegian cousins.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Minnesota defended her ban on liquor sales to Indians all the way to the US Supreme Court.

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    @Reg Cæsar

    Indians - no! Norskies - yes!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  79. @Jack D
    @Dieter Kief

    Hammerstein is (or was - now it's in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Typically you'd do this when you were living somewhere else - if you live in Berlin it doesn't make sense to call yourself that because EVERYONE is from Berlin, but if you lived in some other town then people might call you "Joe from (von) Berlin" to distinguish you from all the other Joes - Joe the Butcher and Joe the Blind Guy, etc. Von Hammerstein doesn't denote a fake claim of nobility, it denotes that Oscar's family was FROM the town of HAMMERSTEIN.

    Replies: @Hibernian, @Dieter Kief, @James O'Meara, @Old Palo Altan, @Reg Cæsar

    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.

    Is it in Shtetl Finder?

    https://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/ShtetlFinder.html

    Or JewishGen? The latter was often confused with the former, at least on the goyish genealogical mailing lists I used to frequent.

    https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/

    You don’t have to be Jewish to gain from these sources. Your ancestors might have lived in the same village.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Reg Cæsar


    JewishGen Gazetteer

    Location HAMMERSTEIN (phonetic) in Eastern Europe

    Czarne, Hammerstein populated place
    53°41' N 16°56' E

    Poland
    196.0 miles WNW of Warszawa
     
    Sure it is. Hammerstein was once (until 1772) in Poland, then in Prussia/Germany, then after WWII in Poland again and today it is known as Czarne. It is most famous for being the site of POW camp Stalag II-B.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  80. @Reg Cæsar
    @Dutch Boy

    Minnesota defended her ban on liquor sales to Indians all the way to the US Supreme Court.

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    Indians – no! Norskies – yes!

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Dutch Boy


    Indians – no! Norskies – yes!

     

    For a good laugh, you should look into the 1912 suffrage referendum in Wisconsin. The Scandinavian counties voted yes, the German counties, including Milwaukee, voted overwhelmingly no. A standard explanation is that women had already been voting in the old country, so Scandinavian-Americans were ready for it.

    Really, though, the unspoken (today, at least) is the tight and overlapping bonds between suffrage and Prohibition. The Germans, socialists as well as the religious reactionaries, feared having their beer taken away should the harridans win.

    Women didn't vote in this referendum, even though they had in earlier ones in other states. This was the suffragists' idea. They fared worse when women (who were already voting on local issues in many places) were included.
  81. @Dieter Kief
    @Old Palo Altan


    The Baron (a Catholic) was in many ways admirable. Nevertheless, I am unable to entirely approve of a man whose methods of child-rearing led to his two daughters leaving the Church and becoming hardline (and life-long) Communists
     
    He was a footloose man, this Kurt Gebhard Adolf Philipp Freiherr von Hammerstein-Equord. His knack for Russia - which led to secret maneuvers he held together with the Russians in the 1930ies (!), which were grounded in his hope, that maybe one could overcome the confrontation between Russia and Germany - this almost kamikaze like decision he made as the leading General of the Wehrmacht especially might have been the root cause, which led to the knack for Communism of two of his daughters. - Which they both later paid a very high price for, but still (that was the father and the mother - and maybe Lot's example, too) - did not regret (= did not look back at (that would be the Lot-root in their behavior - hard to be discerned from the hard-headedness of their father (which in the case of Hammerstein-Equord came along with his being a footloose man, as I wrote above**** - - - full circle (cf. Cusanus....)).


    Since you did once praise the Southern roots-folk-music, you might even - at least understand - why I now speak of - - - - ****Chris Kristofferson and his song The Silver Tongued Devil and I on The Pilgrim...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ATNElWL8G4 

    Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord too was a walking contradiction - partly truth and partly fiction : Chris Kristofferson nailed this Archetypus of the impenetrable (= impure/shimmering/oscillating) hero (C. G. Jung) here  - - - - heartwarmingly well.

    Hans Magnus Enzensberger did a great job in explaining this very aspect of the existence of von Hammerstein-Equord in his Hammerstein-book. - Wich is not only a portrait of him, but also a family portrait, btw.

    PS

    Monday I encountered the exact same outstandingly beautiful day as last year, - when I rode the bike near/in the Bodman woods with a dream-like tail-wind - also: - just like last year. The difference was: Now, when being on the road, I did think about our conversation about this absolutely beautiful bike-ride - in July 2019. - So - thanks for your super dry comment on the Baronesse of B, you made then (oh - you asked me that last year and I thought I should not answer it, but now I can say that much: It was not the Baronesse of Bodman I had been talking about.

    Replies: @Old Palo Altan

    I’ve just listened to a seven minute interview with Enzensberger about this book. Once again Dieter you have put me in touch with a most engaging person.
    I’ve ordered his book on, as you say, the family Hammerstein (not the general merely) and await it with anticipation.
    I was also taken by his description of Munich as the best place these days for writing books: I am just finishing the diaries of Gregorovius the historian of medieval Rome who is about to retire to Munich because his great work is finished and there is nothing more for him to do!

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Old Palo Altan

    I'm glad to read that you'ree interested in it!


    Öhh - Munich is sure nice and all!

  82. @Reg Cæsar
    @Jack D


    Hammerstein is (or was – now it’s in Poland and has a different name) a place in E. Prussia and when Jews adopted surnames they often chose the name of the town they originated from.
     
    Is it in Shtetl Finder?

    https://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/ShtetlFinder.html

    Or JewishGen? The latter was often confused with the former, at least on the goyish genealogical mailing lists I used to frequent.

    https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/

    You don't have to be Jewish to gain from these sources. Your ancestors might have lived in the same village.

    Replies: @Jack D

    JewishGen Gazetteer

    Location HAMMERSTEIN (phonetic) in Eastern Europe

    Czarne, Hammerstein populated place
    53°41′ N 16°56′ E

    Poland
    196.0 miles WNW of Warszawa

    Sure it is. Hammerstein was once (until 1772) in Poland, then in Prussia/Germany, then after WWII in Poland again and today it is known as Czarne. It is most famous for being the site of POW camp Stalag II-B.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @Jack D

    Ok, Czarne, Hammerstein, a small town founded by the German Knights Order. -See? - The Hammersteins were big in the German Knights Order - so: The name Hammerstein does go back to Otto von Hammerstein, as I wrote above, who had a castle sitting at the Rhine roundabout 1000 - and remnants of his castle are still there.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(am_Rhein)  

    Here's Otto

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(Adelsgeschlecht)    

    Otto was a famous divorce case, btw. He even had to leave his castle because of his divorce from Irmingard.

    This famous divorce case saw Duke Otto von Hammerstein together (!) with his wife Irmingard - against Emperor Heinrich II - a friend of Otto, who insisted they had to divorce. The church did pressure Heinrich II because the Hammerstein couple was (distantly) related.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammersteiner_Ehe

  83. @kaganovitch
    @Hibernian

    Liquor is sold wholesale, and retail in packages, by the Jewish community, and by the drink by the Irish. (I grew up in a state, Iowa, that legalized selling liquor (anything stronger than beer) by the drink in 1962.)

    I went to yeshiva with a guy whose father owned half a dozen bars in NYC. They all had vaguely Irish names though.

    Replies: @Jack D

    Back in the Old Country, tavern keeper was a common Jewish occupation. In America, owning a liquor store was a more common occupation than keeping bar for immigrant Jews but when I was 18 I worked at a place owned by one of my father’s friends that was both a liquor store AND a bar. I worked on the liquor store side.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    @Jack D

    Jersey shore?

  84. @Dutch Boy
    @Reg Cæsar

    Indians - no! Norskies - yes!

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Indians – no! Norskies – yes!

    For a good laugh, you should look into the 1912 suffrage referendum in Wisconsin. The Scandinavian counties voted yes, the German counties, including Milwaukee, voted overwhelmingly no. A standard explanation is that women had already been voting in the old country, so Scandinavian-Americans were ready for it.

    Really, though, the unspoken (today, at least) is the tight and overlapping bonds between suffrage and Prohibition. The Germans, socialists as well as the religious reactionaries, feared having their beer taken away should the harridans win.

    Women didn’t vote in this referendum, even though they had in earlier ones in other states. This was the suffragists’ idea. They fared worse when women (who were already voting on local issues in many places) were included.

  85. @Dutch Boy
    @Corvinus

    The 1950s was a period when most white Americans were developing a sense of nationalism that transcended ethnicity and fostered a sense of group solidarity that our rulers found threatening. They took measures to put the kibosh on it with the results we see today.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “The 1950s was a period when most white Americans were developing a sense of nationalism that transcended ethnicity…”

    That sense of nationalism had existed way before that decade.

    “and fostered a sense of group solidarity that our rulers found threatening.”

    You mean certain rulers who found it threatening. For example, WASPs were deathly concerned with the infiltration of Eastern/Southern Europeans.

    “They took measures to put the kibosh on it with the results we see today.”

    What measures?

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    @Corvinus

    Importing millions of cheap laborers and exporting millions of good -paying jobs overseas to crush the bargaining power of American labor. Legalizing abortion and no fault divorce to weaken families and denigrate fatherhood. In the 1950s, the WASPS were still the ruling class, with the Jews making a strong run to replace them. Both of these groups were opposed to the American working class and determined to crush it economically and socially.

    Replies: @Corvinus

  86. @Old Palo Altan
    @Dieter Kief

    I've just listened to a seven minute interview with Enzensberger about this book. Once again Dieter you have put me in touch with a most engaging person.
    I've ordered his book on, as you say, the family Hammerstein (not the general merely) and await it with anticipation.
    I was also taken by his description of Munich as the best place these days for writing books: I am just finishing the diaries of Gregorovius the historian of medieval Rome who is about to retire to Munich because his great work is finished and there is nothing more for him to do!

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    I’m glad to read that you’ree interested in it!

    Öhh – Munich is sure nice and all!

  87. @Jack D
    @Reg Cæsar


    JewishGen Gazetteer

    Location HAMMERSTEIN (phonetic) in Eastern Europe

    Czarne, Hammerstein populated place
    53°41' N 16°56' E

    Poland
    196.0 miles WNW of Warszawa
     
    Sure it is. Hammerstein was once (until 1772) in Poland, then in Prussia/Germany, then after WWII in Poland again and today it is known as Czarne. It is most famous for being the site of POW camp Stalag II-B.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    Ok, Czarne, Hammerstein, a small town founded by the German Knights Order. -See? – The Hammersteins were big in the German Knights Order – so: The name Hammerstein does go back to Otto von Hammerstein, as I wrote above, who had a castle sitting at the Rhine roundabout 1000 – and remnants of his castle are still there.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(am_Rhein)  

    Here’s Otto

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerstein_(Adelsgeschlecht)    

    Otto was a famous divorce case, btw. He even had to leave his castle because of his divorce from Irmingard.

    This famous divorce case saw Duke Otto von Hammerstein together (!) with his wife Irmingard – against Emperor Heinrich II – a friend of Otto, who insisted they had to divorce. The church did pressure Heinrich II because the Hammerstein couple was (distantly) related.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammersteiner_Ehe

  88. @Jack D
    @kaganovitch

    Back in the Old Country, tavern keeper was a common Jewish occupation. In America, owning a liquor store was a more common occupation than keeping bar for immigrant Jews but when I was 18 I worked at a place owned by one of my father's friends that was both a liquor store AND a bar. I worked on the liquor store side.

    Replies: @JMcG

    Jersey shore?

  89. @Anon
    This is an early version of "We Built That."

    Replies: @Rapparee

    True, but when the specific examples given of “things we built” are Vaudeville, urban police departments, and the Democratic party, it’s hard not to concede the point somewhat.

  90. @S. Anonyia
    @Matra

    Well, I am younger than most of you commenting, so for me the 90s/2000s seem pretty wholesome!

    Certainly better than today.

    More of the commentators here need to get on board with small victories and incremental goals instead of just bemoaning the lack of perfection. That's what the other side does, though they've certainly taken a massive leap in the past 5 years fueled by some kind of post-Protestant religious revival.

    Rome wasn't built in a day....

    Replies: @Sam Malone

    Well, I am younger than most of you commenting, so for me the 90s/2000s seem pretty wholesome!

    No excuse for not knowing that on the whole they weren’t wholesome, at all, by our standards or anyone else’s. Or for failing to comprehend that the lamentable circumstances of that time led naturally to the even worse current reality. As they will in Ireland too.

    So Ireland is 20 years behind the U.S. in falling apart and being taken from its people? Well golly, then no matter how bad it keeps getting there, it’ll never be as bad as here!!

  91. @Corvinus
    @Dutch Boy

    "The 1950s was a period when most white Americans were developing a sense of nationalism that transcended ethnicity..."

    That sense of nationalism had existed way before that decade.

    "and fostered a sense of group solidarity that our rulers found threatening."

    You mean certain rulers who found it threatening. For example, WASPs were deathly concerned with the infiltration of Eastern/Southern Europeans.

    "They took measures to put the kibosh on it with the results we see today."

    What measures?

    Replies: @Dutch Boy

    Importing millions of cheap laborers and exporting millions of good -paying jobs overseas to crush the bargaining power of American labor. Legalizing abortion and no fault divorce to weaken families and denigrate fatherhood. In the 1950s, the WASPS were still the ruling class, with the Jews making a strong run to replace them. Both of these groups were opposed to the American working class and determined to crush it economically and socially.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    @Dutch Boy

    "Importing millions of cheap laborers and exporting millions of good-paying jobs overseas to crush the bargaining power of American labor."

    Now, that is something that I can get on board with. So what specific measures would you like to be implemented to stop it?

    "Legalizing abortion..."

    OK.

    "and no fault divorce to weaken families and denigrate fatherhood."

    Not sure about that one.

    "Both of these groups were opposed to the American working class and determined to crush it economically and socially."

    I would say those who embrace capitalism in a manner that seeks to undermine the gains made by the working class, rather than simply saying it is the doing of WASPs and Jews.

  92. @Dutch Boy
    @Corvinus

    Importing millions of cheap laborers and exporting millions of good -paying jobs overseas to crush the bargaining power of American labor. Legalizing abortion and no fault divorce to weaken families and denigrate fatherhood. In the 1950s, the WASPS were still the ruling class, with the Jews making a strong run to replace them. Both of these groups were opposed to the American working class and determined to crush it economically and socially.

    Replies: @Corvinus

    “Importing millions of cheap laborers and exporting millions of good-paying jobs overseas to crush the bargaining power of American labor.”

    Now, that is something that I can get on board with. So what specific measures would you like to be implemented to stop it?

    “Legalizing abortion…”

    OK.

    “and no fault divorce to weaken families and denigrate fatherhood.”

    Not sure about that one.

    “Both of these groups were opposed to the American working class and determined to crush it economically and socially.”

    I would say those who embrace capitalism in a manner that seeks to undermine the gains made by the working class, rather than simply saying it is the doing of WASPs and Jews.

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