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Jerusalem is first of all a symbol, and a potent one; the American recognition of Jewish sovereignty over the Holy City is a sign of the final Jewish victory over Christianity, and it is to be deeply regretted. Richard Coeur de Lion and Tancred would not understand this surrender of the city they fought for, but the times have changed. The Christians of yesteryear did not refer to Jews as their “elder brothers”. What began with Americans saying “Season greetings” instead of ‘Merry Christmas,’ ended with this shameful act of Christ denial.

The Palestinians won’t be able to save the city. The Third Intifada is not coming yet, despite the annoying in-your-face Trump declaration, and despite the Hamas call for a rising, and it is not likely to come anytime soon, unless Israelis will provoke it. Thousands of men and women protested during the week that passed; a few were shot by Israeli soldiers, among others, a double amputee in his wheel chair. However, Palestine did not explode in anger. For a regular reader of my articles, the muted Palestinian response to the American provocation does not come as a surprise. I wrote recently that it has never been so good, Palestine has now a run of modest prosperity, a building boom, a tourist boom, restaurants’ boom, and they are not likely to go and die for a statement, even for an annoying statement.

The Palestinians of East Jerusalem have it better than other Palestinians: they have no citizenship, but they can move more-or-less freely about the whole of Palestine, including the “old Israel”. They are pragmatic and patriotic. They consider themselves the guardians of their legacy, including the great shrines of al Aqsa and of the Holy Sepulchre. If and when the Jews touch the shrines, they respond in force, as it happened last August when Israel tried to limit the access to the Mosque.

But President Trump’s decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of the Jewish state did not ignite them. Nobody in his right mind has had any doubts about American feelings. Americans are for Israel, it is a national obsession. So now they declared Jerusalem – a Jewish capital. And before, when they had sent their ambassadors, all Jews, all devout Zionists, all “Israel Firsters” – was it any different?

Trump is not different from his predecessors. All American Presidents declared Jerusalem – the eternal united and indivisible capital of the Jewish state. Obama did it, and so did Bush. True, they said it while running for the office, and they avoided repeating the mantra while in the White House, but they never repudiated it, either.

Ninety out of a hundred US Senators approved of Trump’s statement. Ten abstained, probably being unable to support Trump for any reason at all. Still, it was a most-approved step of the President. The American political establishment is thoroughly pro-Israel, both liberal and fundamentalist, Republican and Democrat, from Sanders to Bannon; we knew it, and now Trump allowed the people to read it loud and clear. He did what the people want. That is why you elected him: so he will do what you want, not what somebody else who claims to know better, tells you.

Why do you Americans want it? America is working out its Gestalt as the Shining City on the Hill, the New Israel of Manifest Destiny. This great country does not yet want to become just another great country, it wants to lead mankind and to re-form the world after its own shape and image. America had been messianic for a long time, and this habit is hard to kick.

Under the shell of a hard-nosed Yank, there is a fanatic Dispensationalist with The Scofield Reference Bible under his arm waiting for the Gog and Magog war against Israel. You can look at this site, just one of plethora of sites predicting the war between Israel on one side, Iran and Russia on the other side, with the US siding with Israel but staying away until being Raptured into Second Coming. This is insane, but such Gestalts run deep, and they explain insane behaviour (seeking war with Iran, bombing Babylon and supporting Israel) better than a calculation of profit and loss.

Love, or rather obsession with Israel is a part of this Gestalt. Though Southern Baptists and Eastern Liberals appear different, they have the same original imprint cast by the Founding Fathers, by Puritans and Pilgrims. This Gestalt breaks out unexpectedly. The present fight against harassment is just another break-out of Puritan zeal, though the Fundamentalists will quote the Bible, and the Liberals will appeal to Woman whose rights should not be violated.

This is the only plausible explanation to such complaints in the New York Times: “Samantha Holvey, a former contestant in the Miss USA pageant, said that Mr Trump ogled her and other women in the pageant’s hair and makeup room.”

For a sane person, it is apparent that a participant in the Miss USA pageant came there to be ogled and desired by multitudes of men. For a Puritan fanatic, “anyone who looks at a woman lustfully etc”, just looking lustfully (=ogling) is a sin. A Boston zealot circa 1650 would approve of the very modern persecution of lusting and ogling men.

The difference between enlightened de-Christianised American Democrats for Clinton in Vermont and a Fundamentalist Christian Republican for Trump in Mississippi is minor, in rationalisation of their feelings and actions. Both find ogling or flirting or courting – wrong, though they explain it differently. That is why so many American politicians commit suicide while being accused of some non-actionable non-offence, like lusting after a 17 year old girl some years ago.

ORDER IT NOW

It is the same in foreign relations. The Eastern Liberal descendants of the Puritans want to go and kill people abroad to save black women from being ravished by black men in Afghanistan, the Fundamentalists want to crush Babylon; in both cases they are motivated by messianic zeal and desire to transform the world.

It would be the best for the Americans to forget for a while about the Middle East, about Babylon, Israel and Gog and Magog. Perhaps Trump will achieve even that, by fully accepting the people’s will. After all, he has some real reasons to do what he did. He is the Destroyer of Falsitude in his struggle against the Congress. The Congress forced the US President to certify Iran’s good behaviour every six months; Trump refused to do it, and the world did not come down. The Congress forced the US President to postpone the Tel Aviv Embassy move every six months; Trump refused that, and the world did not come down. Just another falsity of the Political Establishment had been destroyed.

By his deed, he probably gained some time and postponed his impeachment. The Jews are not famous for their gratitude, as they accept every good deed as something they anyway deserved, but still, there is a chance they won’t dump him right away.

Paradoxically, the Trump declaration has had many good effects. The US President can say, after Mephistopheles, “I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good.” The President refused to sustain the old mischievous pretence of the US being a neutral broker. He revealed the true feelings of the US establishment towards the Middle East, their Muslims and their Christians, the feeling of total disdain. He undermined the beastly MBS of Arabia. He brought Palestine back into the world agenda after long abeyance. He gave Europe a chance to regain its independence. He did another step in undoing the unsustainable American Empire, and this is also to be welcomed.

Trump resurrected the dying reconciliation agreement between the Fatah and Hamas. The agreement had been on the rocks: Fatah asked for more and more, and Hamas began to lose its patience. The biggest obstacle was the US aid: the Americans didn’t want to subsidise Hamas. As the aid is not coming anyway, this stopped being a hindrance. Trump’s declaration encouraged the sides to move their negotiations onto the fast track.

Trump allowed the Europeans to say what they really feel about him, and with good reason. His declaration mobilised President Erdogan of Turkey and he called for a summit of Muslim states. Istanbul had been the seat of the Caliphate for six hundred years, from 1362 to 1924, and now Erdogan has a valid claim for this grand title. By denouncing the Israelis and their American stooges, the President of Turkey has gained a lot of authority and influence.

One needs an Arab to betray Arabs, and this job has been taken by the Brat of Riyadh. MBS, when he does not torture his kin in a shake-down, has been involved in denying Palestine and Jerusalem. It is he who proposed and agreed with Jared Kushner to surrender Jerusalem in the so-called “the deal of the century”. MBS tried to force the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas to accept the deal or resign. Abbas flatly refused.

The best Middle East journalist David Hearst (his book The Gun and the Olive Branch is an excellent primer for Palestine modern history) noted that in the heavily censored KSA, where a wrong tweet can send you to jail for years, denial of Palestine and Jerusalem had been encouraged.

The Saudi novelist and writer Turki al-Hamad tweeted, ‘Palestine should no longer be regarded as the prime Arab cause. I have my own country’s cause of development, freedom and emancipation from the past. As for Palestine, the house (Palestine) has a Lord (God) who would protect it if abandoned by its inhabitants (Palestinians).” Hamzah Muhammad al-Salim, the writer and economic analyst, tweeted: “Once peace is concluded with Israel, it will become Saudi Arabia’s first tourist destination.” The former director of al-Arabiyah TV channel, Abd al-Rahman al-Rashid, wrote: “It is about time to reconsider the concept of dealing with Palestine and Israel.” Muhammad al-Sheikh said: “The issue of Palestine is not ours…”

These sentiments have been promoted by MBS, and based on them, he proposed to Trump his “deal”. Now, I think, the deal is dead, and MBS is likely to follow Anwar as-Sadat, the Egyptian president who made a deal with Israel and was assassinated. Already Saudi princes have begun a litany of speeches for Jerusalem and for Palestine.

Trump’s declaration was a great gift to Iran. After the Saudis, the greatest enemies of Iran, have revealed their duplicity, the Arabs will have a new and positive view of Iran. Shia or Sunni, Iran proved its steadfast devotion to the cause of Jerusalem and Palestine, and it will be rewarded.

President Putin has good reason to thank Trump for his declaration. Russia is an important player in the Middle East, and after the American betrayal of Palestine, it is likely to become a sought-after mediator in intra-Arab affairs. We may expect that future negotiations between Israel and Palestinians will be managed by the Russians, with UN assistance.

It is possible, though it is not certain that Trump provided the coup de grâce to the Two-State paradigm, to the very idea of partition. Saeb Erekat, the leading Palestinian negotiator, said that now is the time to turn to One-State Solution, which is to be greatly preferred.

The One State won’t be “Jewish”, and this is fine with me. There is no French state for pure ethnic French, but France is the state for all its inhabitants; there is no Islamic State anymore, but Syria for all Syrians, whether Muslims, Christians or adherents of other faiths. There is no reason to have a Jewish state, either. Let it be Israel/Palestine for all its dwellers.

If it will cure American fascination with Zion, and fantasies of Rapture, that would be the best contribution of President Trump to mankind.

East or West?

If the efforts to partition Palestine continue, however, what could be the future of Jerusalem?

The Jews say all Jerusalem is theirs.

The Americans agree with the Jews, as they always do.

The Europeans disagree with the Americans and the Jews, and reserve their judgment.

The Palestinian National Authority (PNA) says East Jerusalem should be Palestinian, while West Jerusalem may be Jewish.

In April this year, the Russian Foreign Office declared that West Jerusalem is to be the capital of Israel, while East Jerusalem should be the capital of Palestine.

This week, the summit of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) met in Istanbul, the last seat of the Caliphate and declared East Jerusalem the Capital of Palestine. The declaration had been approved by 54 nations comprising billions of Muslims.

It sounds fair: West Jerusalem to the Jews, East Jerusalem to the Arabs. Or is it?

ORDER IT NOW

I lived for a few years in Jerusalem, in a well-proportioned and solid two-store-high Arab mansion built of white Jerusalem stone sitting in a green garden. The masons of 1920s knew how to dress the stone: we did not need air condition even in the hottest summer days; the houses keep warmth in chilly mountain winters. The ceilings were high, the windows opened into the gardens with leafy loquat and lemon trees, the floors were tiled by Armenian multi-coloured ceramics and marble stubs.

This area of Jerusalem has been created and populated by Palestinian Christians of Arab, Armenian, Greek, German origin. It is the prime real estate of the city declared by the US administration to be the eternal capital of 70-year old Jewish state. The area I described above is not East Jerusalem; it is West, the best part of the West. The residence of Israeli President is just around the corner.

Nobody argues against its belonging to Israel. West Jerusalem is out of discussion, only East Jerusalem has been argued about. This is the greatest achievement of Israeli Jews and their American supporters, and as it is often true, the greatest achievements are unreported or under-reported because they appear so obviously trivial.

But we may go beyond what you can read in the New York Times and learn the obfuscated truth. By right, Jerusalem should be internationalised.

The whole of Jerusalem had been declared a corpus separatum, a separate body under international jurisdiction, by the same UN resolution (181 (II) 1/ of 29 November 1947) that called for creation of a Jewish and an Arab state in Palestine. The Jews did not care and took over West Jerusalem in 1948 and expelled its Christian and Muslim population. The UN refused to recognise the Jewish rule over West Jerusalem (303 (IV) of 9 December 1949). The city should be placed under a permanent international regime, ruled the UN.

In 1967, the Jews took over East Jerusalem. This time, they did not expel its Christian and Muslim population, but they weren’t given Israeli citizenship. Since then, the people of East Jerusalem live as guests in their own city. They have residency rights, but if they travel abroad to study or work, they lose their residency and can’t come back.

East and the West Jerusalem have one thing in common: both parts of Jerusalem are illegally occupied by the Jewish state. They differ in the fact that the original population of the West had been expelled, while the population of the East had been stripped of their rights. This difference does not turn West Jerusalem into a legitimate Israeli possession. Mass expulsion and ethnic cleansing should not be rewarded with international recognition. Trump actually took a good step by uniting the two illegally occupied parts of Jerusalem in one sentence.

The Jews (with American support) have made us forget that West Jerusalem is also illegally occupied. (Noam Chomsky wrote about this feat at length. He described Israel and the US as the real “Rejection Front”. They rejected the original UN resolutions dealing with 1948 conquest and expulsion, and tried to limit discussion to the 1967 conquest. They succeeded: even friends of Palestine discuss 1967 territories, while leaving 1948 as an old stuff.)

But the Palestinians do know and do remember, how they were thrown out of their homes, and how the Jews moved in. Whatever is the political future of Jerusalem, this dispossession should be reversed. The Gentiles have returned to the Jews the properties they had lost during the turmoil in Europe; now it is the right time to return the stolen Gentile property to Arabs, Germans and Greeks of West Jerusalem.

Israel Shamir can be reached at [email protected]

This article was first published at The Unz Review.

 
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  1. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Under the shell of a hard-nosed Yank, there is a fanatic Dispensationalist with The Scofield Reference Bible under his arm waiting for the Gog and Magog war against Israel.

    I hate Darby, Dispensationalism, and the God-damned Scofield Reference Bible.

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  2. Brabantian says: • Website

    Was it Israel Shamir himself, who some time back suggested that Donald Trump would cleverly undermine Israel & Jewish power … by appearing to give Israeli Jews what they greedily want, and thus use Jewish over-reach to sabotage both the Zionist project & Jewish influence in the world? Is Trump perhaps using the one strategem that will work in reversing Zionist might, which is too dangerous and powerful to confront directly?

    Multiple points in Shamir’s article above quite support this view. As Shamir notes, the Palestinians and Muslims as a whole – Saudi regime fools aside – have become united across sectarian and partisan divides as they would not have been without Trump’s move. The ‘One State for Palestine-Israel’ agenda has been strengthened with perhaps now unstoppable momentum. The world community is much closer to declaring racial-law Israel an apartheid state, and isolating it as a pariah.

    There is a view that Trump, who knows the Jewish mentality well, having spent his entire career amidst it, from his earliest days with mobster Meyer Lansky’s friend Roy Cohn – that Trump’s gambit with approving Jerusalem as the capital, annexing more of the West Bank etc … is precisely Trump’s revenge for a lifetime of being forced to cater to Jews and to Jewish mafias, in the cut-throat world of New York and New Jersey development and real estate, not to mention Trump’s recent forced subservience to Chabad etc influence in the White House. And so perhaps, the decline in Israeli & Jewish power that now snowballs as a result of Trump’s actions, is Trump’s secret pleasure.

    It is possible as well, that Trump is shaking the table in order to let the mid-east dominoes fall into conflict, Israel with its neighbours, & the Muslim factions against each other as Saudi deviousness is exposed … ultimately buttressing Trump’s anti-immigration, ring-fence-the-Anglo-culture positioning, as the world watches mid-East nations heat up conflict out of what can be portrayed as their inner nature. Trump is perhaps lighting up the mid-East on purpose, as the best tool he has to demolish both Jewish influence, and Islamist-fellow-traveller fake progressives in the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    His daughter married Mr. Kushner in 2009.

    Is time the fourth dimension in 4-D chess?
    , @joe webb
    Nice try there B. I used to kinda think like you in this regard, but I have abandoned it now. Your view is a real stretch, given the war that Trump seems to be starting. I have argued that a new tidal wave of Arabs hitting Europe is Good for White Revolt, but I don't think Trump has thought this through.

    How your "jewish Influence" is to be reduced per your argument, escapes me.

    It is true that another war-for-the-jews will become even more an embarrassment for jews, but it could harm Trump electorally. In the news the other day was an article on a poll that showed younger evangelicals as significantly less in love with the jews/Israel. This is probably part of the general erosion in the US and Europe of support for jews.

    If you have a larger argument in all of this , I would like to see it.

    Joe Webb
    , @bleck
    You give him too much credit. Despite I find him an intelligent man, it's too much to control the psychology of all these people.
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  3. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Brabantian
    Was it Israel Shamir himself, who some time back suggested that Donald Trump would cleverly undermine Israel & Jewish power ... by appearing to give Israeli Jews what they greedily want, and thus use Jewish over-reach to sabotage both the Zionist project & Jewish influence in the world? Is Trump perhaps using the one strategem that will work in reversing Zionist might, which is too dangerous and powerful to confront directly?

    Multiple points in Shamir's article above quite support this view. As Shamir notes, the Palestinians and Muslims as a whole - Saudi regime fools aside - have become united across sectarian and partisan divides as they would not have been without Trump's move. The 'One State for Palestine-Israel' agenda has been strengthened with perhaps now unstoppable momentum. The world community is much closer to declaring racial-law Israel an apartheid state, and isolating it as a pariah.

    There is a view that Trump, who knows the Jewish mentality well, having spent his entire career amidst it, from his earliest days with mobster Meyer Lansky's friend Roy Cohn - that Trump's gambit with approving Jerusalem as the capital, annexing more of the West Bank etc ... is precisely Trump's revenge for a lifetime of being forced to cater to Jews and to Jewish mafias, in the cut-throat world of New York and New Jersey development and real estate, not to mention Trump's recent forced subservience to Chabad etc influence in the White House. And so perhaps, the decline in Israeli & Jewish power that now snowballs as a result of Trump's actions, is Trump's secret pleasure.

    It is possible as well, that Trump is shaking the table in order to let the mid-east dominoes fall into conflict, Israel with its neighbours, & the Muslim factions against each other as Saudi deviousness is exposed ... ultimately buttressing Trump's anti-immigration, ring-fence-the-Anglo-culture positioning, as the world watches mid-East nations heat up conflict out of what can be portrayed as their inner nature. Trump is perhaps lighting up the mid-East on purpose, as the best tool he has to demolish both Jewish influence, and Islamist-fellow-traveller fake progressives in the West.

    His daughter married Mr. Kushner in 2009.

    Is time the fourth dimension in 4-D chess?

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  4. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    It has never been so good and so the Palestinians are lulled to sleep again?

    Beware of Jews bearing peace.

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  5. A Jordanian who owns Arab Bank is a dual citizen of both Jordon and KSA. Rumors are ripe that he has been detained in KSA like Saad Hariri who is a dual citizen of both Lebanon and KSA. Saad Hariri being the Prime Minister of Lebanon was temporarily detained in KSA and his diplomatic immunity didn’t work.

    Israel Firsters, if you have dual citizenship, your diplomatic immunity might not work in USA. Beware, Netanyahu if you still hold USA citizenship as many of you do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Karl
    5 Keith Arby > Beware, Netanyahu if you still hold USA citizenship

    Bibi went to high school in Philadelphia (I can hear it!) when his dad was a visiting professor there, but Netanyahu has never accepted any foreign citizenships.
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  6. RudyM says:

    He did what the people want.

    “The people” do not want this. This is a shameful distortion. This was pushed through by Jews. Would not have happened otherwise.

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    • Replies: @Israel Shamir
    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained.
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  7. Talha says:

    Wow – brilliant article by Mr. Shamir, lots of very specific points that should be kept in mind while looking at this issue. One of the biggest is that Jerusalem should be an international (and demilitarized) city.

    Peace.

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  8. @RudyM

    He did what the people want.
     
    "The people" do not want this. This is a shameful distortion. This was pushed through by Jews. Would not have happened otherwise.

    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Issac
    My strong suspicion is that, were such a move put to plebiscite, the overwhelming majority of Americans would abstain. The far right's evangelical quarters are no longer winning elections, indicating their brand of flagrant Zionism is in the offing. The far left's reflexive support of anything anti-Zionist is similarly rag-tag.
    , @anon
    57 Islamic states . 12 of them classify converting from Islam to Christianity as a crime punishable by the death penalty. Converting from Christianity to Islam is not a crime. Thoughts , caveats ?
    , @Greg Bacon
    Apparently, the worldly Mr. Shamir isn't aware of "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," by Walt and Mearsheimer...

    Mearsheimer and Walt have collected and quoted some of the lobbyists' comments on their organizations' political capital. For example, Mearsheimer and Walt quote Morris Amitay, former AIPAC director as saying, "It’s almost politically suicidal ... for a member of Congress who wants to seek reelection to take any stand that might be interpreted as anti-policy of the conservative Israeli government."[93] They also quote a Michael Massing article in which a staffer[who?] sympathetic to Israel said, "We can count on well over half the House – 250 to 300 members – to do reflexively whatever AIPAC wants."[94] Similarly they cite former AIPAC official Steven Rosen illustrating AIPAC’s power for Jeffrey Goldberg by putting a napkin in front of him and saying, "In twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Degree_of_influence
     
    70 senators in just 24 hours? How many in a week or month?

    When the authors tried to get this blasphemous book published, NO publisher in the USA would touch this live hand grenade, so they went over the pond to England and the London Review of Books to get it in print.

    Now that's power, to be able to dictate what books do or don't get published.

    Add in AIPAC, which is in violation of the Foreign Agents Act, as it has not registered and our corrupt Congress wouldn't think of doing something so crass to our Israeli Overlord. Then there's the think tanks, with the most powerful ones run and financed by rich Jews like Haim Saban, they too have a potent impact upon American politics.

    What Mr Shamir doesn't want to write about is that the USA is just a lackey for Apartheid Israel, gladly doing its bidding, whether it's busting up nations Israel doesn't like or by appearing to be an honest broker when it comes to the Palestinian state hood mess.

    We've been engaged in this mess for over three decades and not only has it sapped our economy, its made us out to look like unhinged maniacs, because most of the world realizes that the War on Terror is actually a War for the Glory of Apartheid Israel.

    This hijacking of the USG has given us endless pro-Israeli politicians, the latest being 'Nutty' Nikki Haley, whose ignorance is only surpassed by her pro-Israeli war mongering.

    Time to cut our losses and get out of that mess, we gain nothing by staying.
    , @white noise

    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained
     
    .

    Jews can push a few? Jews can push more than a few. And what makes you think that the senators are there to defend the will of the American people? They couldn't care less! Don't you know they're sold out to the Jews?

    Maybe you were not being sarcastic, after all...

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  9. Dutch Boy says:

    Since we have no dog in the Palestinian/Israeli fight, we ought to butt out and let them settle the matter. That especially means stopping the $4 billion yearly subsidy to Israel.

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    • Replies: @bjondo
    the dogs we and the brits have are the dogs of the original problem and the continuing problem. aiding and abetting the lunatic monsters.
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  10. Issac says:
    @Israel Shamir
    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained.

    My strong suspicion is that, were such a move put to plebiscite, the overwhelming majority of Americans would abstain. The far right’s evangelical quarters are no longer winning elections, indicating their brand of flagrant Zionism is in the offing. The far left’s reflexive support of anything anti-Zionist is similarly rag-tag.

    Read More
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  11. Bliss says:

    Fact: the holy city of muslims is Mecca. The holy city of jews is Jerusalem.

    Fact: the qibla or only focus of muslim worship is the Kaaba in Mecca, not the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (which is the focus of jewish worship).

    Fact: the Palestinians who live south of Jerusalem point their asses towards Jerusalem when they prostrate towards Mecca. Following the example of their prophet Mohammad who did the same when he ruled Medina, which is north of Mecca.

    Conclusion: there is no religious basis to the muslim claim to the Temple Mount or Jerusalem.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Israel Shamir
    And what is a Christian Holy City? The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?
    , @Talha
    LOL!

    Fact: Muslims consider Makkah, Madinah and Jerusalem as holy cities; specifically their respective mosques.

    Fact: The qiblah is merely a directional definition- and does not correlate exactly to level of sacredness which is why the ulema differed whether the Kaaba is the holiest spot on earth or the grave of the Prophet (pbuh).

    Fact: Palestinians north of Jerusalem have to point at both Makkah and Jerusalem.

    Conclusion: Feel free to keep repeating Zionist talking points to justify Israel’s actions, you can define things as you please, but if you try to block Muslims from access to the holy sites in Jerusalem we will fight for them.

    Peace.
    , @Bliss
    Amazing to see that it is the most conservative of the muslim nations, Saudi Arabia, which is the first to start talking rationally about the issue of Jerusalem. Another example of how Trump is shattering the status quo:

    http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Saudi-academic-calls-on-Arabs-to-recognize-Jewish-connection-to-Jerusalem-518372

    A Saudi academic has voiced support for US President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, calling on Arabs to recognize the city’s sanctity for Jews.......

    Abdulhameed Hakeem, head of the Middle East Center for Strategic and Legal Studies in Jedda, told US-based Alhurra television on Saturday that Trump’s move – which touched off protests across the Muslim world from Tunisia to Indonesia – constitutes a “positive shock” to the peace process.....

    “We as Arabs must come to an understanding with the other party and know what its demands are, so that we can succeed in peace-negotiation efforts, so that negotiations not be futile,” Hakeem said. “We must recognize and realize that Jerusalem is a religious symbol to Jews and sacred to them, as Mecca and Medina are to Muslims....

    Arab mind must liberate itself from the legacy of [former Egyptian President] Gamal Abdul-Nasser, and the legacy of both the Sunni and Shi’a sects, which has instilled for political interests the culture of Jew-hatred and denial of their historic right in the region.”

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  12. @Bliss
    Fact: the holy city of muslims is Mecca. The holy city of jews is Jerusalem.

    Fact: the qibla or only focus of muslim worship is the Kaaba in Mecca, not the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (which is the focus of jewish worship).

    Fact: the Palestinians who live south of Jerusalem point their asses towards Jerusalem when they prostrate towards Mecca. Following the example of their prophet Mohammad who did the same when he ruled Medina, which is north of Mecca.


    Conclusion: there is no religious basis to the muslim claim to the Temple Mount or Jerusalem.

    And what is a Christian Holy City? The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Good point Mr. Shamir.

    A question; I’ve read that the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher are entrusted with a Muslim family (a trust that is handed down for generations). Have you ever met with them in your travels?

    Peace.
    , @Bliss

    The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?
     
    Of course it is. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, all the places associated with Jesus are holy to the Christians. Jesus was a jew (an apostate Jew to the Jewish priests of the time) and so were his original followers. Christians don’t claim ownership of the site of the Jewish Temple, nor are they rioting anywhere because Trump accepted Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Christians in America support his decision.

    Do you agree or not that the muslim claim to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount has no religious basis?

    After all, the Koran itself commanded Mohammad to literally turn his back to Jerusalem and start prostrating towards the pagan temple in Mecca. By the way, the Kaaba at that time still contained all it’s idols and images.
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  13. “That is why so many American politicians commit suicide while being accused of some non-actionable non-offence, like lusting after a 17 year old girl some years ago.”

    So many? Not enough, my friend. Not enough.

    “The Europeans disagree with the Americans and the Jews, and reserve their judgment.”

    A sign that the Europeans still hate jews enough to not even suffer any guilt for making Europe so intolerable for European jews that a narrow strip of land surrounded by multitudes of hostiles looks appealing.

    “The whole of Jerusalem had been declared a corpus separatum, a separate body under international jurisdiction, by the same UN resolution (181 (II) 1/ of 29 November 1947) that called for creation of a Jewish and an Arab state in Palestine.”

    Yeah, the UN, font of all that is good in the world, like blind eyes to massacres in Rwanda and Serbia, or rape of young local girls and the spread of cholera in Haiti by their troops, and other, similar good works around the world. By citing the UN, you are actually making a case pro Israeli control of Jerusalem. That resolution was a de jure attempt to stop what Haganah and the Zionists et al had de facto set in motion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Habarigani
    In that case UN general assembly which helped establish Israel should withdraw its recognition!!!
    , @Ploni Almoni
    While it is true that Europe is so intolerable for Jews that they have all fled from oppression, one should not forget that many Jews hate anyone and anything that is not Jewish. In fact, many Jews hate each other and even hate themselves but do not feel any guilt about it. Read Deuteronomy, the Book of Love for your fellow man. Will AntiSemitism get so bad that eventually Jews will have to flee from the Earth to another planet altogether? How sad for mankind.
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  14. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Is there a precedent for thinking a city can be stably ruled by “an international body” such as the UN? Berlin was a few years, after all, not the same scenario at all. I’ve never understood this idea, except as placating public opinion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Danzig, 1919-1939
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  15. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I like your writings, Mr. Shamir, this one included. And I am no ME expert. But in this case (recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli capital), the best framework for analysis is the international relations one, that is, nations further their interests through diplomacy and war.

    As a Catholic, I am not unaware of the supernatural dimension to our human striving, and share your concern for Christian holy sites. But explaining US actions by psychological theory does not further our understanding. It is not the right tool. How many Evangelicals really pull the power strings? Protestantism eventually waters down Christian life and truth, granted, and some of it even denies Christ, true. But the groups that now hold power in the US are simply atheistic and money hungry, and should be called out as such.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Israel Shamir

    How many Evangelicals really pull the power strings?
     
    For sure, they do not pull the strings, but they were empowered by Jews. What is more important, that some traditions are deep and rooted and survive even the present godless assault.
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  16. Talha says:
    @Bliss
    Fact: the holy city of muslims is Mecca. The holy city of jews is Jerusalem.

    Fact: the qibla or only focus of muslim worship is the Kaaba in Mecca, not the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (which is the focus of jewish worship).

    Fact: the Palestinians who live south of Jerusalem point their asses towards Jerusalem when they prostrate towards Mecca. Following the example of their prophet Mohammad who did the same when he ruled Medina, which is north of Mecca.


    Conclusion: there is no religious basis to the muslim claim to the Temple Mount or Jerusalem.

    LOL!

    Fact: Muslims consider Makkah, Madinah and Jerusalem as holy cities; specifically their respective mosques.

    Fact: The qiblah is merely a directional definition- and does not correlate exactly to level of sacredness which is why the ulema differed whether the Kaaba is the holiest spot on earth or the grave of the Prophet (pbuh).

    Fact: Palestinians north of Jerusalem have to point at both Makkah and Jerusalem.

    Conclusion: Feel free to keep repeating Zionist talking points to justify Israel’s actions, you can define things as you please, but if you try to block Muslims from access to the holy sites in Jerusalem we will fight for them.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    The qiblah is merely a directional definition- and does not correlate exactly to level of sacredness which is why the ulema differed whether the Kaaba is the holiest spot on earth or the grave of the Prophet (pbuh).
     
    Be careful what you write, or else the true muslims will behead you for bid’ah . You have a lot of nerve to support the view that the grave of a human is more sacred and holy than the “House of Allah”. This is why salafis call your ilk grave worshipping heretics and send suicide bombers to Sufi shrines.

    By the way, who do you think gets to go to that whorehouse in the sky when that happens? The suicide bomber or the grave worshippers?
    , @anon
    Will you fight for Christians to worship freely at their holy sites in Pakistan ? Seems Pakistani muslims have a nasty habit of blowing up churches and massacring Christians around Christmas time , like happened today.
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  17. Talha says:
    @Israel Shamir
    And what is a Christian Holy City? The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?

    Good point Mr. Shamir.

    A question; I’ve read that the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher are entrusted with a Muslim family (a trust that is handed down for generations). Have you ever met with them in your travels?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Israel Shamir
    Sure! The guardians are Nusseibeh family, one of the most exalted Palestinian families, and they received the keys from Salah ad-Din himself. I know well the present guardian Wajih al-Nuseibeh, wonderful guy, an old friend. His brother was a Jordanian government minister.
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  18. @Talha
    Good point Mr. Shamir.

    A question; I’ve read that the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher are entrusted with a Muslim family (a trust that is handed down for generations). Have you ever met with them in your travels?

    Peace.

    Sure! The guardians are Nusseibeh family, one of the most exalted Palestinian families, and they received the keys from Salah ad-Din himself. I know well the present guardian Wajih al-Nuseibeh, wonderful guy, an old friend. His brother was a Jordanian government minister.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Good stuff! That is really cool! Thanks for the info - may God grant you many more years of travel and reporting from the Holy Land.

    Perchance, have the Christians asked for them back; you know kind of like - "Thanks for holding them for us for all these years guys, but we'll handle it now." Or are they pretty satisfied with the status quo?

    Peace.
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  19. @Anon
    I like your writings, Mr. Shamir, this one included. And I am no ME expert. But in this case (recognition of Jerusalem as Israeli capital), the best framework for analysis is the international relations one, that is, nations further their interests through diplomacy and war.

    As a Catholic, I am not unaware of the supernatural dimension to our human striving, and share your concern for Christian holy sites. But explaining US actions by psychological theory does not further our understanding. It is not the right tool. How many Evangelicals really pull the power strings? Protestantism eventually waters down Christian life and truth, granted, and some of it even denies Christ, true. But the groups that now hold power in the US are simply atheistic and money hungry, and should be called out as such.

    How many Evangelicals really pull the power strings?

    For sure, they do not pull the strings, but they were empowered by Jews. What is more important, that some traditions are deep and rooted and survive even the present godless assault.

    Read More
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  20. Talha says:
    @Israel Shamir
    Sure! The guardians are Nusseibeh family, one of the most exalted Palestinian families, and they received the keys from Salah ad-Din himself. I know well the present guardian Wajih al-Nuseibeh, wonderful guy, an old friend. His brother was a Jordanian government minister.

    Good stuff! That is really cool! Thanks for the info – may God grant you many more years of travel and reporting from the Holy Land.

    Perchance, have the Christians asked for them back; you know kind of like – “Thanks for holding them for us for all these years guys, but we’ll handle it now.” Or are they pretty satisfied with the status quo?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Israel Shamir
    The Church of Resurrection (=Holy Sepulchre) is shared by Catholics, Orthodox, and smaller churches. They compete for territory and time, and a Muslim guardian is vastly preferred to any Christian, for this reason. In short, the Christians are content with the arrangement.
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  21. Cyrano says:

    I think it’s time for Trump to visit Jerusalem. And while there, he should make a bold (if somewhat unoriginal) statement: Ich bin ein Jerusalemer – or whatever the hell the demonym for that place is.

    Preferably, he should say it in German –for authenticity sake and also for the added poignancy, because let’s face it – nothing warms up a Jewish heart like a loving statement delivered in German.

    And then if Trump feels really adventurous, with Netanyahu by his side, he should go to the wailing wall and channel his inner Reagan there by declaring – Mr. Prime minister tear down this wall.

    The symbolism of course being that thanks to Trump’s unification of Jerusalem, nobody needs a wailing wall anymore, maybe building a laughing wall – where everybody will enjoy themselves – will be more appropriated to the circumstances.

    Read More
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  22. Bliss says:
    @Israel Shamir
    And what is a Christian Holy City? The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?

    The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?

    Of course it is. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, all the places associated with Jesus are holy to the Christians. Jesus was a jew (an apostate Jew to the Jewish priests of the time) and so were his original followers. Christians don’t claim ownership of the site of the Jewish Temple, nor are they rioting anywhere because Trump accepted Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Christians in America support his decision.

    Do you agree or not that the muslim claim to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount has no religious basis?

    After all, the Koran itself commanded Mohammad to literally turn his back to Jerusalem and start prostrating towards the pagan temple in Mecca. By the way, the Kaaba at that time still contained all it’s idols and images.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Of course that all the places associated with the Christ are holy to Christians, but only those places. Not the Temple which was to be destroyed and replaced with the 'temple of His body'. Neither Jerusalem. The 'temple' is in any place where the 'body and blood' of Christ is consumed.

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".

    Indeed the reconstruction of the temple, which is the ultimate goal of all Zionists, is conceived as the ultimate victory against Christianity. Naturally, Jews forget the stark warning given to them when they tried to rebuild the temple with the help of the Zionist Roman Emperor Julian!

    Even less can Christians see any holiness in the the 'third mosque' (the Dome of the Rock, which Muslims believe was built on the same spot as the temple of 'Sulayman') which is an anti-Christian proclamation, explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the 'disbelievers' with the fire of hell!
    The Dome's founding inscriptions read:
    (Interior):
    "In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignity and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the servant of God and His Messenger.
    Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. The blessing of God be on him and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - CEASE (it is) better for you! - God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant unto God, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him. Oh God, bless Your Messenger and Your servant Jesus son of Mary. Peace be on him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary, (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty of) God that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. God (Himself) is witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise. Lo! religion with God (is) Islam. Those who (formerly) received the Book differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of God (will find that) Lo! God is swift at reckoning!

    (Exterior):
    In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no
    associate. Say: He is God, the One! God, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God. Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. Praise be to God, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him and the angels and His prophets, and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. In the name of God, the Merciful
    the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignty and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth. And He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. May He accept his intercession on the Day of Judgment on behalf of his people. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. The dome was built by servant of God ʿAbd Allah the Imam al-Ma'mun, Commander] of the Faithful, in the year two and seventy. May God accept from him and be content with him. Amen, Lord of the worlds, praise be to God".

    Christians are programmatically excluded from the Judaic and Muslim 'holiness' of Jerusalem. They do not worship the same God as the Jews and Muslims.
    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the 'status quo' (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.
    , @RobinG
    "Christians in America support his decision." Negativo, el Mentiroso. Apparently commutative, Bliss = ignorance.
    You could have said, "Some Zio-evangelists," but not Christians.

    for example
    Statement on U.S. Jerusalem Embassy Decision
    By Thomas Kemper and Rev. Dr. Susan Henry Crowe*

    The decision by the President of the United States to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the US embassy there goes against 70 years of consensus within the international community that Jerusalem should be an international city, a city of peace, open to people of all faiths. As pilgrims who have ourselves visited Jerusalem, we know first hand the deep significance it holds for people of many faiths.

    The United Nation’s partition plan, adopted November 29, 1947, called for Jerusalem and Bethlehem to be a corpus separatum (a separate entity) that would be open to all. Today, not one government has its embassy in Jerusalem. Every U.S. president from Truman until now, has affirmed that any final status of Jerusalem must embrace such openness and be negotiated by Israel and the Palestinian people.

    United Methodists have long supported the international consensus that the things that make for just and lasting peace in the Middle East must include a shared Jerusalem. Our General Conference declares: "Jerusalem is sacred to all children of Abraham: Jews, Muslims, and Christians. We have a vision of a shared Jerusalem, as a city of peace and reconciliation, where indigenous Palestinians and Israelis can live as neighbors and, along with visitors and tourists, have access to holy sites and exercise freedom of religious expression. The peaceful resolution of Jerusalem's status is crucial to the success of the whole process of making a just and lasting peace between Palestinians and Israelis" (The United Methodist Book of Resolutions, 2016, #6111).

    When the government of Israel annexed East Jerusalem, in violation of international law, the World Council of Churches joined the international community in protest, declaring: “This decision is contrary to all pertinent UN resolutions. It most dangerously undermines all efforts towards the just solution of the Middle East problem and thus jeopardizes regional and world peace” (WCC statement, August 1980, https://www.oikoumene.org/en/ resources/documents/central- committee/1980/statement-on- jerusalem ).

    The WCC statement went on to recognize that the peace of Jerusalem goes hand in hand with the peace of the entire region: “The destiny of Jerusalem should be viewed in terms of people including Christians as well as Jews and Muslims and not only in terms of shrines. Therefore, just as the future status of Jerusalem has been considered part of the destiny of the Jewish people, so it cannot be considered in isolation from the destiny of the Palestinian people, and should thus be determined within the general context of the settlement of the Middle East conflict in its totality.”

    The U.S. President’s unilateral decision places another huge stumbling block in the path towards just peace for all—Israelis and Palestinians, Jews, Christians, and Muslims. It risks emboldening further Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and further displacement of Palestinians from East Jerusalem.

    In this first week of Advent, as Christians around the world turn our hearts towards Bethlehem to celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, we reject any notion that God is on one side. Rather we remember and celebrate the coming of Emmanuel, God with us—all of us—as we seek the things that make for just peace for all.

    *Thomas Kemper is the general secretary of Global Ministries. The Rev. Dr. Susan Henry-Crowe is the general secretary of the General Board of Church and Society of The United Methodist Church.
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  23. Thirdeye says:
    @Anon
    Is there a precedent for thinking a city can be stably ruled by "an international body" such as the UN? Berlin was a few years, after all, not the same scenario at all. I've never understood this idea, except as placating public opinion.

    Danzig, 1919-1939

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    How did that work out? I think the arrangement was one of the key German grievances exploited by the Nazis.
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  24. Bliss says:
    @Talha
    LOL!

    Fact: Muslims consider Makkah, Madinah and Jerusalem as holy cities; specifically their respective mosques.

    Fact: The qiblah is merely a directional definition- and does not correlate exactly to level of sacredness which is why the ulema differed whether the Kaaba is the holiest spot on earth or the grave of the Prophet (pbuh).

    Fact: Palestinians north of Jerusalem have to point at both Makkah and Jerusalem.

    Conclusion: Feel free to keep repeating Zionist talking points to justify Israel’s actions, you can define things as you please, but if you try to block Muslims from access to the holy sites in Jerusalem we will fight for them.

    Peace.

    The qiblah is merely a directional definition- and does not correlate exactly to level of sacredness which is why the ulema differed whether the Kaaba is the holiest spot on earth or the grave of the Prophet (pbuh).

    Be careful what you write, or else the true muslims will behead you for bid’ah . You have a lot of nerve to support the view that the grave of a human is more sacred and holy than the “House of Allah”. This is why salafis call your ilk grave worshipping heretics and send suicide bombers to Sufi shrines.

    By the way, who do you think gets to go to that whorehouse in the sky when that happens? The suicide bomber or the grave worshippers?

    Read More
    • Replies: @ploni almoni
    Good point. Christians belong to the Jews, lock stock and barrel. You should be more concerned on who gets sent to that toilet bowl in the center of the earth.
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  25. Seraphim says:
    @Bliss

    The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?
     
    Of course it is. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, all the places associated with Jesus are holy to the Christians. Jesus was a jew (an apostate Jew to the Jewish priests of the time) and so were his original followers. Christians don’t claim ownership of the site of the Jewish Temple, nor are they rioting anywhere because Trump accepted Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Christians in America support his decision.

    Do you agree or not that the muslim claim to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount has no religious basis?

    After all, the Koran itself commanded Mohammad to literally turn his back to Jerusalem and start prostrating towards the pagan temple in Mecca. By the way, the Kaaba at that time still contained all it’s idols and images.

    Of course that all the places associated with the Christ are holy to Christians, but only those places. Not the Temple which was to be destroyed and replaced with the ‘temple of His body’. Neither Jerusalem. The ‘temple’ is in any place where the ‘body and blood’ of Christ is consumed.

    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”.

    Indeed the reconstruction of the temple, which is the ultimate goal of all Zionists, is conceived as the ultimate victory against Christianity. Naturally, Jews forget the stark warning given to them when they tried to rebuild the temple with the help of the Zionist Roman Emperor Julian!

    Even less can Christians see any holiness in the the ‘third mosque’ (the Dome of the Rock, which Muslims believe was built on the same spot as the temple of ‘Sulayman’) which is an anti-Christian proclamation, explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell!
    The Dome’s founding inscriptions read:
    (Interior):
    “In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignity and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the servant of God and His Messenger.
    Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. The blessing of God be on him and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not ‘Three’ – CEASE (it is) better for you! – God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant unto God, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him. Oh God, bless Your Messenger and Your servant Jesus son of Mary. Peace be on him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary, (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty of) God that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. God (Himself) is witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise. Lo! religion with God (is) Islam. Those who (formerly) received the Book differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of God (will find that) Lo! God is swift at reckoning!

    (Exterior):
    In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no
    associate. Say: He is God, the One! God, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God. Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. Praise be to God, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him and the angels and His prophets, and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. In the name of God, the Merciful
    the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignty and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth. And He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. May He accept his intercession on the Day of Judgment on behalf of his people. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. The dome was built by servant of God ʿAbd Allah the Imam al-Ma’mun, Commander] of the Faithful, in the year two and seventy. May God accept from him and be content with him. Amen, Lord of the worlds, praise be to God”.

    Christians are programmatically excluded from the Judaic and Muslim ‘holiness’ of Jerusalem. They do not worship the same God as the Jews and Muslims.
    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the ‘status quo’ (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell!
     
    Thanks for posting those inscriptions - I don't think I've ever read them before in full. But I don't see any threat of hell in there anywhere. Did I miss it? I do see "God is swift at reckoning!" - is that what you mean?

    Pray tell, according to normative Christian doctrine what happens to those that reject Christian belief in the Afterlife? Do they get a choice of cookies or ice cream? Or something else, like a reckoning perhaps?

    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the ‘status quo’ (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.
     
    Excellent - agreed!

    Peace.
    , @Ivan
    Indeed, while I can sympathise with Jews and their obsession with the Temple and Jerusalem - next year in Jerusalem - and all that, the Muslim claim on the city, as holy to them is another in the line of Muslims appropriating the holy sites of other religions in order to show their utter contempt for the superseded religions, here Judaism. What is the basis for the claim that Jerusalem is holy to them? An utterly ridiculous fable that Mo ascended to heaven on his holy horse, Burraq from 'the furthest mosque'. And we should note that when the Palestinians are talking Arabic, its al-Quds or Baitulmakdis when referring to Jerusalem, they will have none of the ecumenical when talking about it. Mr Shamir may well ask why even Christian Palestinians refer to Jerusalem as al-Quds. Jerusalem may well be a whore on par with Babylon, but it is preemptive dhimmitude to talk in the language of those who have oppressed Christians as much as the Muslims have.
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  26. Talha says:

    Hey Bliss,

    You have a lot of nerve to support the view that the grave of a human is more sacred and holy than the “House of Allah”.

    Not really, this is pretty much supported by men like Qadi Iyad (ra), Mulla Ali Qari (ra), Imam as-Subki (ra) and a host of other top notch scholars in our history. That’s why there is a difference of opinion on it – one can choose whatever opinion appeals to them on the matter.

    This is why salafis call your ilk grave worshipping heretics

    That’s true because they don’t understand the difference between considering something holy and sacred vs actually worshiping it.

    whorehouse in the sky

    Heard about the mile-high club, but is that like an international flight where the stewardesses are literally whores who service clients to bypass local prohibitions? Which airline does this?

    The suicide bomber or the grave worshippers?

    Neither, I don’t think the airlines allow passengers that aren’t in one piece – they don’t want a single passenger taking up multiple seats. They can be cut throat about that:

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/10/travel/passenger-removed-united-flight-trnd/index.html

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    "..... is that like an international flight where the stewardesses are literally whores....."

    That would be like Jeffrey Epstein's private jet .... but with real whores instead of sex-trafficked juveniles, eh?
    , @Hibernian
    "That’s true because they don’t understand the difference between considering something holy and sacred vs actually worshiping it."

    As a Catholic I can relate to that.
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  27. Talha says:
    @Seraphim
    Of course that all the places associated with the Christ are holy to Christians, but only those places. Not the Temple which was to be destroyed and replaced with the 'temple of His body'. Neither Jerusalem. The 'temple' is in any place where the 'body and blood' of Christ is consumed.

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".

    Indeed the reconstruction of the temple, which is the ultimate goal of all Zionists, is conceived as the ultimate victory against Christianity. Naturally, Jews forget the stark warning given to them when they tried to rebuild the temple with the help of the Zionist Roman Emperor Julian!

    Even less can Christians see any holiness in the the 'third mosque' (the Dome of the Rock, which Muslims believe was built on the same spot as the temple of 'Sulayman') which is an anti-Christian proclamation, explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the 'disbelievers' with the fire of hell!
    The Dome's founding inscriptions read:
    (Interior):
    "In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignity and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the servant of God and His Messenger.
    Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. The blessing of God be on him and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - CEASE (it is) better for you! - God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant unto God, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him. Oh God, bless Your Messenger and Your servant Jesus son of Mary. Peace be on him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary, (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty of) God that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. God (Himself) is witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise. Lo! religion with God (is) Islam. Those who (formerly) received the Book differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of God (will find that) Lo! God is swift at reckoning!

    (Exterior):
    In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no
    associate. Say: He is God, the One! God, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God. Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. Praise be to God, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him and the angels and His prophets, and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. In the name of God, the Merciful
    the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignty and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth. And He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. May He accept his intercession on the Day of Judgment on behalf of his people. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. The dome was built by servant of God ʿAbd Allah the Imam al-Ma'mun, Commander] of the Faithful, in the year two and seventy. May God accept from him and be content with him. Amen, Lord of the worlds, praise be to God".

    Christians are programmatically excluded from the Judaic and Muslim 'holiness' of Jerusalem. They do not worship the same God as the Jews and Muslims.
    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the 'status quo' (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.

    Hey Seraphim,

    explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell!

    Thanks for posting those inscriptions – I don’t think I’ve ever read them before in full. But I don’t see any threat of hell in there anywhere. Did I miss it? I do see “God is swift at reckoning!” – is that what you mean?

    Pray tell, according to normative Christian doctrine what happens to those that reject Christian belief in the Afterlife? Do they get a choice of cookies or ice cream? Or something else, like a reckoning perhaps?

    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the ‘status quo’ (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.

    Excellent – agreed!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Try the article on "Ignorance" in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Unfortunately though New Advent seems to have changed their website layout to a rather less appealing format, though they've done away with the pointless "comment" feature which is a plus. And of course both the article and the information are available elsewhere online.
    , @Seraphim
    And what the believers believe is God's 'reckoning' for the 'disbelievers'? Certainly not 70 perpetual virgins and ice cream. The answer is, of course, in the Koran:

    "And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place" (Surah Al-Kahf 18:29).

    And yes, if you would have any knowledge of 'normative Christian doctrine' from its normative texts (and not from Islamic commentaries), those who reject the Christ do not get a choice of ice cream or cookies, but a reckoning.

    "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal".

    " And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
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  28. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell!
     
    Thanks for posting those inscriptions - I don't think I've ever read them before in full. But I don't see any threat of hell in there anywhere. Did I miss it? I do see "God is swift at reckoning!" - is that what you mean?

    Pray tell, according to normative Christian doctrine what happens to those that reject Christian belief in the Afterlife? Do they get a choice of cookies or ice cream? Or something else, like a reckoning perhaps?

    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the ‘status quo’ (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.
     
    Excellent - agreed!

    Peace.

    Try the article on “Ignorance” in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Unfortunately though New Advent seems to have changed their website layout to a rather less appealing format, though they’ve done away with the pointless “comment” feature which is a plus. And of course both the article and the information are available elsewhere online.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks - I used the word “reject”; this is not ignorance but rather willful denial. The information on the site was very helpful in pointing out details but is not much different than what people like Imam Ghazali (ra) and others outlined in our tradition.

    Peace.

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  29. Seraphim says:
    @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell!
     
    Thanks for posting those inscriptions - I don't think I've ever read them before in full. But I don't see any threat of hell in there anywhere. Did I miss it? I do see "God is swift at reckoning!" - is that what you mean?

    Pray tell, according to normative Christian doctrine what happens to those that reject Christian belief in the Afterlife? Do they get a choice of cookies or ice cream? Or something else, like a reckoning perhaps?

    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the ‘status quo’ (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.
     
    Excellent - agreed!

    Peace.

    And what the believers believe is God’s ‘reckoning’ for the ‘disbelievers’? Certainly not 70 perpetual virgins and ice cream. The answer is, of course, in the Koran:

    “And say, “The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills – let him believe; and whoever wills – let him disbelieve.” Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place” (Surah Al-Kahf 18:29).

    And yes, if you would have any knowledge of ‘normative Christian doctrine’ from its normative texts (and not from Islamic commentaries), those who reject the Christ do not get a choice of ice cream or cookies, but a reckoning.

    “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”.

    ” And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    those who reject the Christ do not get a choice of ice cream or cookies, but a reckoning....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
     
    Thanks for the clarification.

    From where I’m standing, there’s not much difference between that and “threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell”.

    Peace.
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  30. Talha says:
    @Anon
    Try the article on "Ignorance" in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Unfortunately though New Advent seems to have changed their website layout to a rather less appealing format, though they've done away with the pointless "comment" feature which is a plus. And of course both the article and the information are available elsewhere online.

    Thanks – I used the word “reject”; this is not ignorance but rather willful denial. The information on the site was very helpful in pointing out details but is not much different than what people like Imam Ghazali (ra) and others outlined in our tradition.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  31. @Talha
    Good stuff! That is really cool! Thanks for the info - may God grant you many more years of travel and reporting from the Holy Land.

    Perchance, have the Christians asked for them back; you know kind of like - "Thanks for holding them for us for all these years guys, but we'll handle it now." Or are they pretty satisfied with the status quo?

    Peace.

    The Church of Resurrection (=Holy Sepulchre) is shared by Catholics, Orthodox, and smaller churches. They compete for territory and time, and a Muslim guardian is vastly preferred to any Christian, for this reason. In short, the Christians are content with the arrangement.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Ah OK - a neutral outside party. Totally makes sense, I’m glad the arrangement works out for the various Churches and their congregations.

    Peace.
    , @bjondo
    and my experience with muslims
    they are honest
    not like the grk ortho
    selling out
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  32. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Israel Shamir
    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained.

    57 Islamic states . 12 of them classify converting from Islam to Christianity as a crime punishable by the death penalty. Converting from Christianity to Islam is not a crime. Thoughts , caveats ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Wow - that was from out of left field, I’ve got one:
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3774/9278138292_5b1041c746_m.jpg
    , @Wally
    Israel does not allow others to migrate to Israel, it's JEWS ONLY.

    Israel to shut migrant centre and deport Africans
    http://www.unz.com/isteve/israel-to-shut-migrant-centre-and-deport-africans/

    Forget the 'slippery slope' — Israel already is an apartheid state
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/israel-slippery-slope-1.4368018

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  33. RobinG says:
    @Bliss

    The city where Christ was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven is of no importance to the Christians?
     
    Of course it is. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, all the places associated with Jesus are holy to the Christians. Jesus was a jew (an apostate Jew to the Jewish priests of the time) and so were his original followers. Christians don’t claim ownership of the site of the Jewish Temple, nor are they rioting anywhere because Trump accepted Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Christians in America support his decision.

    Do you agree or not that the muslim claim to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount has no religious basis?

    After all, the Koran itself commanded Mohammad to literally turn his back to Jerusalem and start prostrating towards the pagan temple in Mecca. By the way, the Kaaba at that time still contained all it’s idols and images.

    “Christians in America support his decision.” Negativo, el Mentiroso. Apparently commutative, Bliss = ignorance.
    You could have said, “Some Zio-evangelists,” but not Christians.

    for example
    Statement on U.S. Jerusalem Embassy Decision
    By Thomas Kemper and Rev. Dr. Susan Henry Crowe*

    The decision by the President of the United States to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the US embassy there goes against 70 years of consensus within the international community that Jerusalem should be an international city, a city of peace, open to people of all faiths. As pilgrims who have ourselves visited Jerusalem, we know first hand the deep significance it holds for people of many faiths.

    The United Nation’s partition plan, adopted November 29, 1947, called for Jerusalem and Bethlehem to be a corpus separatum (a separate entity) that would be open to all. Today, not one government has its embassy in Jerusalem. Every U.S. president from Truman until now, has affirmed that any final status of Jerusalem must embrace such openness and be negotiated by Israel and the Palestinian people.

    [MORE]

    United Methodists have long supported the international consensus that the things that make for just and lasting peace in the Middle East must include a shared Jerusalem. Our General Conference declares: “Jerusalem is sacred to all children of Abraham: Jews, Muslims, and Christians. We have a vision of a shared Jerusalem, as a city of peace and reconciliation, where indigenous Palestinians and Israelis can live as neighbors and, along with visitors and tourists, have access to holy sites and exercise freedom of religious expression. The peaceful resolution of Jerusalem’s status is crucial to the success of the whole process of making a just and lasting peace between Palestinians and Israelis” (The United Methodist Book of Resolutions, 2016, #6111).

    When the government of Israel annexed East Jerusalem, in violation of international law, the World Council of Churches joined the international community in protest, declaring: “This decision is contrary to all pertinent UN resolutions. It most dangerously undermines all efforts towards the just solution of the Middle East problem and thus jeopardizes regional and world peace” (WCC statement, August 1980, https://www.oikoumene.org/en/ resources/documents/central- committee/1980/statement-on- jerusalem ).

    The WCC statement went on to recognize that the peace of Jerusalem goes hand in hand with the peace of the entire region: “The destiny of Jerusalem should be viewed in terms of people including Christians as well as Jews and Muslims and not only in terms of shrines. Therefore, just as the future status of Jerusalem has been considered part of the destiny of the Jewish people, so it cannot be considered in isolation from the destiny of the Palestinian people, and should thus be determined within the general context of the settlement of the Middle East conflict in its totality.”

    The U.S. President’s unilateral decision places another huge stumbling block in the path towards just peace for all—Israelis and Palestinians, Jews, Christians, and Muslims. It risks emboldening further Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and further displacement of Palestinians from East Jerusalem.

    In this first week of Advent, as Christians around the world turn our hearts towards Bethlehem to celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, we reject any notion that God is on one side. Rather we remember and celebrate the coming of Emmanuel, God with us—all of us—as we seek the things that make for just peace for all.

    *Thomas Kemper is the general secretary of Global Ministries. The Rev. Dr. Susan Henry-Crowe is the general secretary of the General Board of Church and Society of The United Methodist Church.

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  34. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    LOL!

    Fact: Muslims consider Makkah, Madinah and Jerusalem as holy cities; specifically their respective mosques.

    Fact: The qiblah is merely a directional definition- and does not correlate exactly to level of sacredness which is why the ulema differed whether the Kaaba is the holiest spot on earth or the grave of the Prophet (pbuh).

    Fact: Palestinians north of Jerusalem have to point at both Makkah and Jerusalem.

    Conclusion: Feel free to keep repeating Zionist talking points to justify Israel’s actions, you can define things as you please, but if you try to block Muslims from access to the holy sites in Jerusalem we will fight for them.

    Peace.

    Will you fight for Christians to worship freely at their holy sites in Pakistan ? Seems Pakistani muslims have a nasty habit of blowing up churches and massacring Christians around Christmas time , like happened today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Christians already have the right to worship freely in their churches in Pakistan. Pakistan has a problem with extremism. Extremists target them as they do those Muslims they disagree with; here is a timeline of attacks on Sufi mausoleums (not including the attack this Feb which killed almost 80):
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    This has been roundly condemned by the top Muslim scholars:
    https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/207047-Religious-scholars-issue-unanimous-fatwa-declaring-suicide-attacks-Haram

    The issue is, if these people were listening to the scholars in the first place, we wouldn’t have this problem. There have been a few attacks on churches in America for various reasons so no society is immune. Pakistan just happens to have a whole lot more nutcases - it’s an issue of scale.

    Peace.
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  35. RobinG says:
    @Talha
    Hey Bliss,

    You have a lot of nerve to support the view that the grave of a human is more sacred and holy than the “House of Allah”.
     
    Not really, this is pretty much supported by men like Qadi Iyad (ra), Mulla Ali Qari (ra), Imam as-Subki (ra) and a host of other top notch scholars in our history. That's why there is a difference of opinion on it - one can choose whatever opinion appeals to them on the matter.

    This is why salafis call your ilk grave worshipping heretics

     

    That's true because they don't understand the difference between considering something holy and sacred vs actually worshiping it.

    whorehouse in the sky
     
    Heard about the mile-high club, but is that like an international flight where the stewardesses are literally whores who service clients to bypass local prohibitions? Which airline does this?

    The suicide bomber or the grave worshippers?
     
    Neither, I don't think the airlines allow passengers that aren't in one piece - they don't want a single passenger taking up multiple seats. They can be cut throat about that:
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/10/travel/passenger-removed-united-flight-trnd/index.html

    Peace.

    “….. is that like an international flight where the stewardesses are literally whores…..”

    That would be like Jeffrey Epstein’s private jet …. but with real whores instead of sex-trafficked juveniles, eh?

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  36. Smiddy says:

    The hardcore anti-Israel types are angrier over the decision than surprised that the corporate cabal is finally outing Israel, something none of us ever imagined we’d see. And no one anywhere is even mentioning this, not even Israel Shamir apparently…

    You can view it one of two ways – the corporate media is finally doing their job OR this is further evidence of a schism between Israeli Firsters and Globalists. I never even considered that the whole Palestinian/Israel debacle could be controlled and purposely continued by Gobalists as a means to control Israel, I always monolithically assumed that “Zionists” (or Israel Firsters) were the sole problem. Hell this even explains why Obama hit and ran before he left office – it’s not like he really cared morally, his masters told him to do it. After all, is it not possible that the elite banking family that bore creation to Israel had planned to use it as an eventual front or sacrifice in their grand diabolical scheme? And is it not possible, let alone probable, that they are ultimately loyal to nothing else than power and wealth, while feigning ethnic loyalty?… Israel had atleast been at some odds with the Globalists since Iran Contra since they kicked the Globalist’s Council on Foreign Affairs pick (someone suspiciously willing to out Israel and Jews, but not bankers, almost as if he was following some kind of Protocols) out of office.

    The reason the last 4 Presidents all promised and lied about Jerusalem is because whoever was controlling them wanted to control Israel by keeping Israel in a constant state of limbo… After all the UN is and has always been a Globalist cog, so this also explains that logical obstacle away. Also explains why Israel threw Soros under the bus publicly, a man married into the Red Shield’s dynasty.

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  37. Pity Shamir does not see, or write, that the whole of Israel should be returned to Palestinians, in principle.
    If the Arabian Liga proposition still exists, I do not know.
    But it was or is a practical solution:
    - paying the Palestinians for what was stolen and destroyed prior to 1967
    - returning to the Palestinians what wat stolen in 1967 and thereafter.
    A survey some years ago showed that some 90% of the then some 400.000 jews in the West Bank were willing to leave, on condition that they were compensated for the loss of their houses there.
    The above is far cheaper, I suppose, than having the third strongest military force on earth.

    When Shamir writes about THE Americans, he is referring to USA citizens, I fear he’s suffering from a profound illusion.
    See the complaint here a few days ago by a writer about anti semitic reactions.

    In Europe the same, more and more complaints about anti semitism.
    On Belgian tv even a professor stating about jews something like, translating emotions like this is difficult, ‘I regard jews as nasty people, they steal scientific discoveries’.
    Next day, of course, from a jew, ‘most antisemitic remark in recent times’.
    Never comment on the substance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    In case anyone understands Dutch
    https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2017/12/16/tollenaere-niet-langer-lid-van-de-n-va/
    , @Anon
    Informative, thank you. It is a practical solution (if Israel was really looking for a fairish one), but since it de facto implies some admission of wrongdoing (taking by force = reparations) it would tarnish the jewish monopoly of suffering. And monopolies are very lucrative.
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  38. Greg Bacon says: • Website
    @Israel Shamir
    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained.

    Apparently, the worldly Mr. Shamir isn’t aware of “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy,” by Walt and Mearsheimer…

    Mearsheimer and Walt have collected and quoted some of the lobbyists’ comments on their organizations’ political capital. For example, Mearsheimer and Walt quote Morris Amitay, former AIPAC director as saying, “It’s almost politically suicidal … for a member of Congress who wants to seek reelection to take any stand that might be interpreted as anti-policy of the conservative Israeli government.”[93] They also quote a Michael Massing article in which a staffer[who?] sympathetic to Israel said, “We can count on well over half the House – 250 to 300 members – to do reflexively whatever AIPAC wants.”[94] Similarly they cite former AIPAC official Steven Rosen illustrating AIPAC’s power for Jeffrey Goldberg by putting a napkin in front of him and saying, “In twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States#Degree_of_influence

    70 senators in just 24 hours? How many in a week or month?

    When the authors tried to get this blasphemous book published, NO publisher in the USA would touch this live hand grenade, so they went over the pond to England and the London Review of Books to get it in print.

    Now that’s power, to be able to dictate what books do or don’t get published.

    Add in AIPAC, which is in violation of the Foreign Agents Act, as it has not registered and our corrupt Congress wouldn’t think of doing something so crass to our Israeli Overlord. Then there’s the think tanks, with the most powerful ones run and financed by rich Jews like Haim Saban, they too have a potent impact upon American politics.

    What Mr Shamir doesn’t want to write about is that the USA is just a lackey for Apartheid Israel, gladly doing its bidding, whether it’s busting up nations Israel doesn’t like or by appearing to be an honest broker when it comes to the Palestinian state hood mess.

    We’ve been engaged in this mess for over three decades and not only has it sapped our economy, its made us out to look like unhinged maniacs, because most of the world realizes that the War on Terror is actually a War for the Glory of Apartheid Israel.

    This hijacking of the USG has given us endless pro-Israeli politicians, the latest being ‘Nutty’ Nikki Haley, whose ignorance is only surpassed by her pro-Israeli war mongering.

    Time to cut our losses and get out of that mess, we gain nothing by staying.

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    • Agree: geokat62
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  39. @jilles dykstra
    Pity Shamir does not see, or write, that the whole of Israel should be returned to Palestinians, in principle.
    If the Arabian Liga proposition still exists, I do not know.
    But it was or is a practical solution:
    - paying the Palestinians for what was stolen and destroyed prior to 1967
    - returning to the Palestinians what wat stolen in 1967 and thereafter.
    A survey some years ago showed that some 90% of the then some 400.000 jews in the West Bank were willing to leave, on condition that they were compensated for the loss of their houses there.
    The above is far cheaper, I suppose, than having the third strongest military force on earth.

    When Shamir writes about THE Americans, he is referring to USA citizens, I fear he's suffering from a profound illusion.
    See the complaint here a few days ago by a writer about anti semitic reactions.

    In Europe the same, more and more complaints about anti semitism.
    On Belgian tv even a professor stating about jews something like, translating emotions like this is difficult, 'I regard jews as nasty people, they steal scientific discoveries'.
    Next day, of course, from a jew, 'most antisemitic remark in recent times'.
    Never comment on the substance.
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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    The same in French
    https://www.rtbf.be/info/belgique/detail_sous-pression-le-fils-de-collabo-jan-tollenaere-rend-sa-carte-de-la-n-va?id=9791805
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  40. Talha says:
    @Seraphim
    And what the believers believe is God's 'reckoning' for the 'disbelievers'? Certainly not 70 perpetual virgins and ice cream. The answer is, of course, in the Koran:

    "And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place" (Surah Al-Kahf 18:29).

    And yes, if you would have any knowledge of 'normative Christian doctrine' from its normative texts (and not from Islamic commentaries), those who reject the Christ do not get a choice of ice cream or cookies, but a reckoning.

    "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal".

    " And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

    those who reject the Christ do not get a choice of ice cream or cookies, but a reckoning….And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    From where I’m standing, there’s not much difference between that and “threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell”.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    From where you are standing it looks like there's 'not much difference', implying that there is a (false) equivalence between Islam and Christianity. But you are standing in the wrong place and your perspective is skewed.
    There is no equivalence. Christianity's perspective is true, because it was revealed by the Holy Spirit of God through the incarnate Son. Islam was 'revealed' by a jinn to a mere mortal.
    'Jibril' who told Mary the daughter of Imran and sister of Moses : "5 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah", was NOT the Archangel Gabriel who told The Blessed Virgin Mary: "“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    Can you see any equivalence here? Necessarily one of the affirmations is false. There is no doubt which one is. The account of the Gospels is the true one, however much the Islamic commentators try to 'demonstrate' that the Gospel as they stand are 'corrupt'.
    BTW, the Christians in Islamic purview are the ones using those 'corrupt' texts of which they are enjoined to 'desist'. They are 'tolerated' only if they pay protection money to the 'Ummah' mafia. Jews too.
    , @anonymous
    What about the tally for murders? How many killed by Mahoma, how many by Christ? Do you perceive a difference there? Would that be an essential distinction for their followers? Normative, so to speak?
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  41. Talha says:
    @Israel Shamir
    The Church of Resurrection (=Holy Sepulchre) is shared by Catholics, Orthodox, and smaller churches. They compete for territory and time, and a Muslim guardian is vastly preferred to any Christian, for this reason. In short, the Christians are content with the arrangement.

    Ah OK – a neutral outside party. Totally makes sense, I’m glad the arrangement works out for the various Churches and their congregations.

    Peace.

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  42. @jilles dykstra
    In case anyone understands Dutch
    https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2017/12/16/tollenaere-niet-langer-lid-van-de-n-va/
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  43. Talha says:
    @anon
    Will you fight for Christians to worship freely at their holy sites in Pakistan ? Seems Pakistani muslims have a nasty habit of blowing up churches and massacring Christians around Christmas time , like happened today.

    Christians already have the right to worship freely in their churches in Pakistan. Pakistan has a problem with extremism. Extremists target them as they do those Muslims they disagree with; here is a timeline of attacks on Sufi mausoleums (not including the attack this Feb which killed almost 80):

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    This has been roundly condemned by the top Muslim scholars:

    https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/207047-Religious-scholars-issue-unanimous-fatwa-declaring-suicide-attacks-Haram

    The issue is, if these people were listening to the scholars in the first place, we wouldn’t have this problem. There have been a few attacks on churches in America for various reasons so no society is immune. Pakistan just happens to have a whole lot more nutcases – it’s an issue of scale.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Talha, you are a co-religionst and sharing nation of birth with those 'nutcases', you slip up both under the 'Talha' uname when losing your temper, and, more, in your Anon posts, to making it clear that you are largely sharing the opinions of the 'nutcases' at heart.
    , @Che Guava
    What a stupid lie. Christians in Pakistan are under under constant pressure and attack, frequently to death, you are to demonstrating your bad faith as a poster very well with this lie.
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  44. Talha says:
    @anon
    57 Islamic states . 12 of them classify converting from Islam to Christianity as a crime punishable by the death penalty. Converting from Christianity to Islam is not a crime. Thoughts , caveats ?

    Wow – that was from out of left field, I’ve got one:

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders . By contrast there were zero terror attacks by Jews targeting Christians in 2017 .

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty . Conversions from Christianity to Islam in these nations is not against the law . By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.

    Kinda silly to whine about Jews supposed treatment of Christians when the elephant in the room in regards to terror attacks and de jure laws against Christians are both wholly Islamic phenomena. Do you suppose if given a choice and answering honetsly that most Christians , perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule ?
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  45. Art says:

    Under the shell of a hard-nosed Yank, there is a fanatic Dispensationalist with The Scofield Reference Bible under his arm waiting for the Gog and Magog war against Israel.

    That is not Trump – he could care less about all that religious gobbledygook.

    While he was still in power, Trump did this for Ivanka’s Jew children and his sons Jew children.

    History will say that Jerusalem fell because of a rulers family obligations.

    That will be the story in 1,000 years.

    Think Peace — Art

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  46. nsa says:

    Think of Trumpie’s plight as being locked into an unfortunate bad political marriage. He has attained a tenuous marital peace with his vile shrewish domineering jooie wife by the simple expedient of caving to her every whim. She of course has total contempt for her pathetic goy husband’s lack of manhood and humiliates the neutered weakling at every opportunity. Yes, dear……OK, dear…….right away, dear.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    Melania Trump is a secular Catholic raised catholic. The first 2 wives are also Christians

    Maybe you’re thinking of the Jewish daughter?
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  47. Read More
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  48. Che Guava says:

    Mr. Shamir,

    That is a great and very thought-provoking article, on many points.

    I could add to some. However, you have too many liars in the replies, and I am likely to having the largest molar on one side extracted tomorrow, so need to sleeping soon. I once read that having all teeth extracted will kill anyone over thirty or so, it will be a uniquely ugly experience, but maybe not until next year.

    At work end-of-year party, talking about Catholic Christmas Mass, they were saying ‘if you are there alone, it will not be happy’. None a Catholic, but I am thinking they are correct.

    So, I will just say, merry Christmas to you, I may find an old-calendar Orthodox service on my brief escape from Tokyo, maybe going to a Catholic service next weekend.

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    • Replies: @Israel Shamir
    Dear Che, wishing you luck with this dental operation. Indeed it is very unpleasant thing. My advice: immediately implant a new tooth on its place. Without teeth, one gets morbid thoughts. I noticed it has a great psychological impact as if a man without teeth is doomed for speedy death.
    , @Anon
    Che:
    Best of luck, and I hope you find a beautiful, congenial Mass to go to. Christ is there. This is fragment of a beautiful poem by Therese of Avila for just such occasions, though the translation is much less lyrical than the original:

    That nothing disturb you,
    That nothing frighten you,
    Everything passes,
    God does not change.
    Patience will everything obtain.
    Whoever has God
    is lacking for nothing.
    Alone God is enough.


    The poem may be based on Jesus' exhortation to His disciples in John 14: "Let not your hearts be troubled neither let them be afraid." This is the original, in her handwriting:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iAxjpLcHWAc/UJrKlZ-oGjI/AAAAAAAAAyY/s9czrTXyu9w/s1600/Santa+Teresa.jpg

    Merry Christmas.

    , @RobinG
    Mr. Guava, you are having one tooth extracted, not all, right? And by largest molar, do you mean the one farthest back in your mouth? I personally know several people who have lost that tooth, and they are unanimous in saying that they don't miss it. [[No morbid thoughts, lol.]]

    Most dentists concur this tooth is no big deal. Of course, all things aren't equal and everybody has different variables. Good luck.
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  49. Amos says:

    Nationalism can easily be made into a non-thing from the outside, which is Shamir’s tired trick. Israel is a non-entity, Zionism is theft, Jerusalem schmerusalem, etc. etc. The Left in this country employs the same tactic of repudiation against America’s claims for a national identity.

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  50. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    Wow - that was from out of left field, I’ve got one:
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3774/9278138292_5b1041c746_m.jpg

    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders . By contrast there were zero terror attacks by Jews targeting Christians in 2017 .

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty . Conversions from Christianity to Islam in these nations is not against the law . By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.

    Kinda silly to whine about Jews supposed treatment of Christians when the elephant in the room in regards to terror attacks and de jure laws against Christians are both wholly Islamic phenomena. Do you suppose if given a choice and answering honetsly that most Christians , perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    So what would you call the destruction of Iraq, Libya, Syria with iran now in the scope if not Jewish Globalist wars using Christian soldiers to do the dirty work...only difference is in scale, where Muslims simply cannot compete with the level of carnage committed by Christians and Jews.
    , @jilles dykstra
    Unable to understand the last paragraph.
    But if drones drone overhead all the time, with names like Predator, from time to time firing Hellfire, and/or western warplanes bring bombs, for democracy, of course, would you, if you were a Muslim, living in a Muslim area, like christians ?

    Similarly, if you were a Palestinian, inside or outside the concentration camp Gaza, or any refugee camp, would you like jews ?
    I indeed do not know about jews killing christians, but this is abundantly compensated by jews 'neutralising', or whatever euphemism is used, jews are not murderers, of course, Palestinians.
    , @Talha

    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders.
     
    That sounds about right. We have a pretty big Ummah compared to Jews so, by the numbers, even if Jews committed like 5 murders, we'd be on par capita-wise.

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty
     
    Correct, this may or may not change in the future. I wrote about this here:
    http://www.unz.com/ldinh/florensac-olargues-pont-sainte-esprit-and-the-cia/#comment-1992034

    I think there will probably room for personal conversions, though I doubt preaching will be allowed. I mean, hell if the Greeks have the rule:
    "Constitution of Greece, Article 13: Freedom of Religion
    2. All known religions shall be free and their rites of worship shall be performed unhindered and under the protection of the law. The practice of rites of worship is not allowed to offend public order or the good usages. Proselytism is prohibited."
    https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/quotes/constitution-of-greece-article-13-freedom-of-religion

    perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule
     
    I think you are right and should allow asylum for all persecuted Christians into Israel that will show you are honest about the topic and not trying to distract the issue.

    Peace.
    , @Greg Bacon

    By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.
     
    Bollocks!
    Try walking down an Orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem, preaching the Bible and offering to convert, you'll get your head bashed in by peace-loving Jews who hate Christians and their Lord Jesus Christ.
    Try the same in Occupied Hebron where the Hasidics have stolen many a Palestinian apartment and from there, launch projectiles against the poor souls underneath. Try Thumping the Bible there and you'll wind up in a hospital or maybe even a morgue.

    BTW, there are laws in Israel that prevent Christians from preaching....

    On Dec. 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for missionaries to proselytize Jews. Protestant churches charged that the law had been “hastily pushed through parliament during the Christmas period when Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major festival.” The law made missionaries liable to five years’ imprisonment for attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years’ imprisonment for any Jew who converted. The United Christian Council complained that the law could be “misused in restricting religious freedom in Israel.”

    http://ifamericaknew.org/history/rel-christians.html
     
    Then there is the deluded fire-breathing--and throwing--Israelis who torch on a regular basis Christian churches in Israel.

    But you won't hear that sleazy Hagee saying anything about that, he's probably angling for a FREE personal jet, just like the one Israel gave to another fraud, Jerry Falwell.
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  51. Read More
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  52. Che Guava says:
    @Talha
    Christians already have the right to worship freely in their churches in Pakistan. Pakistan has a problem with extremism. Extremists target them as they do those Muslims they disagree with; here is a timeline of attacks on Sufi mausoleums (not including the attack this Feb which killed almost 80):
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    This has been roundly condemned by the top Muslim scholars:
    https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/207047-Religious-scholars-issue-unanimous-fatwa-declaring-suicide-attacks-Haram

    The issue is, if these people were listening to the scholars in the first place, we wouldn’t have this problem. There have been a few attacks on churches in America for various reasons so no society is immune. Pakistan just happens to have a whole lot more nutcases - it’s an issue of scale.

    Peace.

    Talha, you are a co-religionst and sharing nation of birth with those ‘nutcases’, you slip up both under the ‘Talha’ uname when losing your temper, and, more, in your Anon posts, to making it clear that you are largely sharing the opinions of the ‘nutcases’ at heart.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    At least he stopped using the "rehmat" sock puppet ! Baby steps !

    Peace, love and never ending jihad (inner struggle ,of course*)


    *requisite bit 'o takkiyah
    , @Talha
    Hey Che,

    sharing nation of birth with those ‘nutcases’
     
    Yeah sorry, as it's been pointed out, we are a bunch of inbred retards that eat far too many spices for our own good. Systemic issues are an obvious result. Have mercy upon us, we're too stupid to know better.

    If Anon is the same person that has been communicating with me, then I believe they are a Sri Lankan Christian male around 30 years of age. I have no clue if that has been consistent. I've asked whoever Anon is to pick a name (I suggested "Nom De Plume"), maybe you can get through to them.

    you are largely sharing the opinions of the ‘nutcases’ at heart
     
    Bakwas yaar!

    http://wildhunt.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/you-mad-bro-.jpg

    Peace.
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  53. Che Guava says:
    @Talha
    Christians already have the right to worship freely in their churches in Pakistan. Pakistan has a problem with extremism. Extremists target them as they do those Muslims they disagree with; here is a timeline of attacks on Sufi mausoleums (not including the attack this Feb which killed almost 80):
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1315263

    This has been roundly condemned by the top Muslim scholars:
    https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/207047-Religious-scholars-issue-unanimous-fatwa-declaring-suicide-attacks-Haram

    The issue is, if these people were listening to the scholars in the first place, we wouldn’t have this problem. There have been a few attacks on churches in America for various reasons so no society is immune. Pakistan just happens to have a whole lot more nutcases - it’s an issue of scale.

    Peace.

    What a stupid lie. Christians in Pakistan are under under constant pressure and attack, frequently to death, you are to demonstrating your bad faith as a poster very well with this lie.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Che,

    No - it's not a lie. There is legally nothing blocking Pakistani Christians from worshiping as they like.


    Christians in Pakistan are under under constant pressure and attack, frequently to death
     
    Uh, yeah...it's called extremism, bro. I admitted Pakistan has a serious problem. They like killing Muslims too - Shiah mosques and Sufi mausoleums are a favorite target. It's kind of what gets them the "extremist" label - you kind of have to earn it. I mean if they were handing out teddy bears and candy, it'd be kind of silly to call them that - right?

    Peace.

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  54. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Trump is giving what the people want? The only Americans who care about Israel are the Jews and their paid for neocon shills, who make up 2% of the US population, and not even all Jews care about Israel, there are many Jews who are now increasingly apathetic about Israel. The remaining 98% of Americans including many who voted for Trump want nothing to do with the Mideast. We want the US to cut Israel loose and get the hell out of the Middle east, stop going to war with everybody and his mother on behalf of Israel.

    Imagine what we can do with the $4B in annual aid given to Israel. Start by giving a full ride scholarship to every American citizen who wants to study Computer Science so we can stop importing the Asian horde to take over our tech industry.

    Most of us are just sick and tired of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Israel’s 8m people make up barely 0.11% of the world’ population, yet this tiny little region is the source of all the never ending conflicts of the world. There will never be peace in the middle east. These people have been fighting since the dawn of mankind, and they will be fighting until the last 2 men standing inflict mortal wounds on each other. We ought to either leave these people the heck alone to kill off one another, or bomb the whole place out of existence so the rest of us can finally get some peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    . Israel’s 8m people make up barely 0.11% of the world’ population, yet this tiny little region is the source of all the never ending conflicts of the world
     
    Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed
    Nigerian occupation of Biafra - 2 million + killed
    Sudanese occupation of Darfur - 800,000 + killed
    Indonesian occupation of Papua -500,000+ killed
    Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara - 40,000 + killed
    Russian occupation of Dagestan , Checnhya ,Kaliningrad , Crimea -200,000+ killed
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus and Kurdistan - 70,000 + killed
    Chinese occupation of Tibet and Xinyang
    India Pakistan conflict
    North Korea conflict
    Basque separatist / Catalan separatist


    Yup looks like Isreal is the cause of ALL the ongoing conflicts in the world !!!!!
    Is your brain located adjacent to your prostate ???

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  55. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Che Guava
    Talha, you are a co-religionst and sharing nation of birth with those 'nutcases', you slip up both under the 'Talha' uname when losing your temper, and, more, in your Anon posts, to making it clear that you are largely sharing the opinions of the 'nutcases' at heart.

    At least he stopped using the “rehmat” sock puppet ! Baby steps !

    Peace, love and never ending jihad (inner struggle ,of course*)

    *requisite bit ‘o takkiyah

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    • Agree: Che Guava
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    BTW, I may have been fooled, but am not believing that Rehmat and Tralha are the same person.

    Rehmat is still posting on Occidental Observer, not here now.

    Rehmat may well being an expression of a hive, (if so, dullards), as a former mod on a deceased, popular, and controversial site, am thinking that Tralha is likely a real person, as I am with my nonsensical u-name, and you behind anonymous coward.
    , @Lincoln Blockface Squarebeard III

    At least he stopped using the “rehmat” sock puppet !
     
    Pretty sure rehmat is not Talha's sock puppet. Rehmat has a blog under the same name and posts at a number of web sites. Their posting style and the content of their posts is nothing alike. You are already quite paranoid and irrational about Islam and you seem to think "takkiyah" is something a Muslim will casually deploy when debating with grim doomsayers who project all their fears and insecurities onto a religion they don't want to understand. That is paranoia stacked on top of paranoia and it is a short leap from there to seeing Muslim sock puppets crawling out of the woodwork.

    Some perspective... Add up all the civilian and non-battlefield deaths attributed to Islamist extremists from, say, 1965 to 2015 and compare that total to the number of civilians killed in that time period by the US military and its various proxy death squads/militia groups (and the USG's "economic sanctions" on Iraq, Syria etc. and its fleecing of the former Soviet Union during the Yeltsin years). Interestingly enough many, perhaps even most, Americans believe God is on their country's side by default as it rampages around the world leaving death and destruction in its wake.

    Maybe that is why most of the world's people think the United States of America is the greatest threat to peace. But they are probably being tricked by Muslims to say that, right? lol
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  56. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders . By contrast there were zero terror attacks by Jews targeting Christians in 2017 .

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty . Conversions from Christianity to Islam in these nations is not against the law . By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.

    Kinda silly to whine about Jews supposed treatment of Christians when the elephant in the room in regards to terror attacks and de jure laws against Christians are both wholly Islamic phenomena. Do you suppose if given a choice and answering honetsly that most Christians , perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule ?

    So what would you call the destruction of Iraq, Libya, Syria with iran now in the scope if not Jewish Globalist wars using Christian soldiers to do the dirty work…only difference is in scale, where Muslims simply cannot compete with the level of carnage committed by Christians and Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    where Muslims simply cannot compete with the level of carnage committed by Christians and Jews
     
    .

    I know right ! That nasty Christian/Jew Omar Bashir of the curiously named " Islamic republic of Sudan" really takes the cake . I mean no Muslim regime would kill 1 million plus in South Sudan and 800,000 plus in Darfur and also form a government sponsored rape militia called the Janjaweed to systematically rape black women with the stated goal of ethnic cleansing and Arabizing the population .

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  57. @anon
    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders . By contrast there were zero terror attacks by Jews targeting Christians in 2017 .

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty . Conversions from Christianity to Islam in these nations is not against the law . By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.

    Kinda silly to whine about Jews supposed treatment of Christians when the elephant in the room in regards to terror attacks and de jure laws against Christians are both wholly Islamic phenomena. Do you suppose if given a choice and answering honetsly that most Christians , perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule ?

    Unable to understand the last paragraph.
    But if drones drone overhead all the time, with names like Predator, from time to time firing Hellfire, and/or western warplanes bring bombs, for democracy, of course, would you, if you were a Muslim, living in a Muslim area, like christians ?

    Similarly, if you were a Palestinian, inside or outside the concentration camp Gaza, or any refugee camp, would you like jews ?
    I indeed do not know about jews killing christians, but this is abundantly compensated by jews ‘neutralising’, or whatever euphemism is used, jews are not murderers, of course, Palestinians.

    Read More
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  58. Talha says:
    @anon
    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders . By contrast there were zero terror attacks by Jews targeting Christians in 2017 .

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty . Conversions from Christianity to Islam in these nations is not against the law . By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.

    Kinda silly to whine about Jews supposed treatment of Christians when the elephant in the room in regards to terror attacks and de jure laws against Christians are both wholly Islamic phenomena. Do you suppose if given a choice and answering honetsly that most Christians , perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule ?

    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders.

    That sounds about right. We have a pretty big Ummah compared to Jews so, by the numbers, even if Jews committed like 5 murders, we’d be on par capita-wise.

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty

    Correct, this may or may not change in the future. I wrote about this here:

    http://www.unz.com/ldinh/florensac-olargues-pont-sainte-esprit-and-the-cia/#comment-1992034

    I think there will probably room for personal conversions, though I doubt preaching will be allowed. I mean, hell if the Greeks have the rule:
    “Constitution of Greece, Article 13: Freedom of Religion
    2. All known religions shall be free and their rites of worship shall be performed unhindered and under the protection of the law. The practice of rites of worship is not allowed to offend public order or the good usages. Proselytism is prohibited.”

    https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/quotes/constitution-of-greece-article-13-freedom-of-religion

    perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule

    I think you are right and should allow asylum for all persecuted Christians into Israel that will show you are honest about the topic and not trying to distract the issue.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    That sounds about right. We have a pretty big Ummah compared to Jews so, by the numbers, even if Jews committed like 5 murders, we’d be on par capita-wise.
     
    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric . I contend that even if the Jewish population increased tenfold you would still see zero terror attacks by Jews against Christians .

    I think there will probably room for personal conversions, though I doubt preaching will be allowed. I mean, hell if the Greeks have the rule:
    “Constitution of Greece, Article 13: Freedom of Religion
    2. All known religions shall be free and their rites of worship shall be performed unhindered and under the protection of the law. The practice of rites of worship is not allowed to offend public order or the good usages. Proselytism is prohibited
     
    .”

    Condmening Christians , Hindus , Buddhists, Jews ,Sikhs to death for proseltysing while allowing Muslims to proseletyse to any religous group is apartheid. Furthermore the Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing and are applying the penalties equally to all religions as opposed to Pakistan and many other countries favoring Islam in the legal system.

    I think you are right and should allow asylum for all persecuted Christians into Israel that will show you are honest about the topic and not trying to distract the issue.
     
    Im not trying to distract anything and I will go a step further . No need to cram the millions of Christians being persecuted in Muslim lands into the tiny land of Israel , which anyway has no space for such an endeavor . I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims. Coptic Egypt , Tunisia ,Algeria ,Morocco, Libya , Syria, Lebanon etc. I mean if you aren't trying to distract than you would be on board right peaceful tahla ?

    By the way I think you use Isreal as a distraction from the myriad of Muslim occupation and colonization going on . I mean you must be 1000x more offended by the Muslim occupations of Papau, Darfur , Biafra , Cyprus , Kurdistan , Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt etc. I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.
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  59. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Trump is giving what the people want? The only Americans who care about Israel are the Jews and their paid for neocon shills, who make up 2% of the US population, and not even all Jews care about Israel, there are many Jews who are now increasingly apathetic about Israel. The remaining 98% of Americans including many who voted for Trump want nothing to do with the Mideast. We want the US to cut Israel loose and get the hell out of the Middle east, stop going to war with everybody and his mother on behalf of Israel.

    Imagine what we can do with the $4B in annual aid given to Israel. Start by giving a full ride scholarship to every American citizen who wants to study Computer Science so we can stop importing the Asian horde to take over our tech industry.

    Most of us are just sick and tired of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Israel's 8m people make up barely 0.11% of the world' population, yet this tiny little region is the source of all the never ending conflicts of the world. There will never be peace in the middle east. These people have been fighting since the dawn of mankind, and they will be fighting until the last 2 men standing inflict mortal wounds on each other. We ought to either leave these people the heck alone to kill off one another, or bomb the whole place out of existence so the rest of us can finally get some peace.

    . Israel’s 8m people make up barely 0.11% of the world’ population, yet this tiny little region is the source of all the never ending conflicts of the world

    Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed
    Nigerian occupation of Biafra – 2 million + killed
    Sudanese occupation of Darfur – 800,000 + killed
    Indonesian occupation of Papua -500,000+ killed
    Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara – 40,000 + killed
    Russian occupation of Dagestan , Checnhya ,Kaliningrad , Crimea -200,000+ killed
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus and Kurdistan – 70,000 + killed
    Chinese occupation of Tibet and Xinyang
    India Pakistan conflict
    North Korea conflict
    Basque separatist / Catalan separatist

    Yup looks like Isreal is the cause of ALL the ongoing conflicts in the world !!!!!
    Is your brain located adjacent to your prostate ???

    Read More
    • Troll: L.K
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    I miss the Israel/AIPAC inspired USA destruction of Iraq, one million deaths, large parts of the country uninhabitable for thousands of years, 2000 tons of depleted uranium burned.

    " Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed"
    Maybe, and now some five million Palestinian refugees, and the Gaza concentration camp.

    The other things mentioned, do nog know enough about it to comment.
    Nigeria and Sudan, oil there is, again, important, despite the idea that we in a few years do not need oil any more.

    Kalingrad and Crimea, where did you find those fairy tales ?
    Cyprus, the whole population killed ?

    But I must agree, Israel does not cause all conflicts.
    Those that Israel causes are more than enough.
    , @bjondo
    let us celebrate hanaka
    a celebration of jew slaughtering jew
    and in modern times
    jew slaughtering uncountable
    enjoy
    , @anonymous
    You forgot the proxy wars fought in one way or another for Israel's benefit:

    The Syrian war: up to 480,000 dead
    The Iraq war: 123,000 dead

    All the ones you listed other than Israel/Palestinian -- there is a big difference: the US is not involved in any of these sectarian wars. No oil to be had, so the Jewcons aren't interested. Also none of those countries, Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Morocco, Russia, Turkey, have agents and lobbyists buried deep inside our administration to exert massive influence on our foreign policy to benefit one side against the other. Only Israel does.

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  60. Talha says:
    @Che Guava
    Talha, you are a co-religionst and sharing nation of birth with those 'nutcases', you slip up both under the 'Talha' uname when losing your temper, and, more, in your Anon posts, to making it clear that you are largely sharing the opinions of the 'nutcases' at heart.

    Hey Che,

    sharing nation of birth with those ‘nutcases’

    Yeah sorry, as it’s been pointed out, we are a bunch of inbred retards that eat far too many spices for our own good. Systemic issues are an obvious result. Have mercy upon us, we’re too stupid to know better.

    If Anon is the same person that has been communicating with me, then I believe they are a Sri Lankan Christian male around 30 years of age. I have no clue if that has been consistent. I’ve asked whoever Anon is to pick a name (I suggested “Nom De Plume”), maybe you can get through to them.

    you are largely sharing the opinions of the ‘nutcases’ at heart

    Bakwas yaar!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RSDB
    I often post under "Anon"*, though I've only made one comment on this thread, about the meaning of "ignorance". I'm an American Catholic of mostly Ceylonese/Sri Lankan descent, for whatever that's worth.

    On that subject, I recommended the article because you asked for a Christian view on that sort of thing. I'm glad to know it mostly coincides with the Muslim view, but what interests me, from when I used to read more history, is that in my impression medieval Muslim commentators would fairly often, when referring to an infidel, say "May God curse him!" or describe his death in the form "X died and went to hell". Now certain Christians also sometimes assumed the latter, iirc including St. Francis Xavier though I cannot remember the passage; still it is very jarring and I am glad your more distinguished scholars are more reasonable.

    *In fact I generally do unless I have a good reason not to, like now. This is for several reasons, one of which is that when posting under "Anon" I'm mostly quite free with biographical data and I don't want certain of the people here knowing my actual identity or that of the friends and relatives whose stories I might feel like giving.

    I think the (or one) other "anon" is some guy who posts mostly pro-Israeli stuff. That's not really something in which I have an intense interest.

    , @MEexpert

    I’ve asked whoever Anon is to pick a name (I suggested “Nom De Plume”), maybe you can get through to them.
     
    It is to write differing views without being held responsible for them. You don't know which "anon/Anon" will show up. I don't like to communicate with Schizophrenics.
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  61. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    So what would you call the destruction of Iraq, Libya, Syria with iran now in the scope if not Jewish Globalist wars using Christian soldiers to do the dirty work...only difference is in scale, where Muslims simply cannot compete with the level of carnage committed by Christians and Jews.

    where Muslims simply cannot compete with the level of carnage committed by Christians and Jews

    .

    I know right ! That nasty Christian/Jew Omar Bashir of the curiously named ” Islamic republic of Sudan” really takes the cake . I mean no Muslim regime would kill 1 million plus in South Sudan and 800,000 plus in Darfur and also form a government sponsored rape militia called the Janjaweed to systematically rape black women with the stated goal of ethnic cleansing and Arabizing the population .

    Read More
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  62. Talha says:
    @Che Guava
    What a stupid lie. Christians in Pakistan are under under constant pressure and attack, frequently to death, you are to demonstrating your bad faith as a poster very well with this lie.

    Hey Che,

    No – it’s not a lie. There is legally nothing blocking Pakistani Christians from worshiping as they like.

    Christians in Pakistan are under under constant pressure and attack, frequently to death

    Uh, yeah…it’s called extremism, bro. I admitted Pakistan has a serious problem. They like killing Muslims too – Shiah mosques and Sufi mausoleums are a favorite target. It’s kind of what gets them the “extremist” label – you kind of have to earn it. I mean if they were handing out teddy bears and candy, it’d be kind of silly to call them that – right?

    Peace.

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  63. Z-man says:

    America and Americans have no fascination with the Jew State. It’s political class is owned by Jews and Zionists, which are pretty much one and the same.
    But part of the article is very good.

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  64. Greg Bacon says: • Website
    @anon
    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders . By contrast there were zero terror attacks by Jews targeting Christians in 2017 .

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty . Conversions from Christianity to Islam in these nations is not against the law . By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.

    Kinda silly to whine about Jews supposed treatment of Christians when the elephant in the room in regards to terror attacks and de jure laws against Christians are both wholly Islamic phenomena. Do you suppose if given a choice and answering honetsly that most Christians , perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule ?

    By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.

    Bollocks!
    Try walking down an Orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem, preaching the Bible and offering to convert, you’ll get your head bashed in by peace-loving Jews who hate Christians and their Lord Jesus Christ.
    Try the same in Occupied Hebron where the Hasidics have stolen many a Palestinian apartment and from there, launch projectiles against the poor souls underneath. Try Thumping the Bible there and you’ll wind up in a hospital or maybe even a morgue.

    BTW, there are laws in Israel that prevent Christians from preaching….

    On Dec. 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for missionaries to proselytize Jews. Protestant churches charged that the law had been “hastily pushed through parliament during the Christmas period when Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major festival.” The law made missionaries liable to five years’ imprisonment for attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years’ imprisonment for any Jew who converted. The United Christian Council complained that the law could be “misused in restricting religious freedom in Israel.”

    http://ifamericaknew.org/history/rel-christians.html

    Then there is the deluded fire-breathing–and throwing–Israelis who torch on a regular basis Christian churches in Israel.

    But you won’t hear that sleazy Hagee saying anything about that, he’s probably angling for a FREE personal jet, just like the one Israel gave to another fraud, Jerry Falwell.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Don't forget, Jews can't marry a non-Jew in Israel.
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  65. anon • Disclaimer says:

    No – it’s not a lie. There is legally nothing blocking Pakistani Christians from worshiping as they like.

    Not true . Per Pakistani law , Christians in Pakistan have no religious freedom . Proseletysing is part of the Christian religion , however Christians proseletysing to Muslims is illegal in Pakistan and punishable by the death penalty . Of course Muslims are allowed to proseletyse to Chrstians . This system is called apartheid .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Christians in Pakistan have no religious freedom
     
    I'm calling BS. So you mean there is no religious freedom in Greece? I just showed everyone what's in their constitution and they have used it against minority groups like Jehovah's Witnesses.

    There is freedom to proselytize to other non-Muslims - just not Muslims. All countries restrict certain practices of others - I can't marry three other women in the US now can I?

    Proseletysing is part of the Christian religion
     
    Yeah - sorry, that's not allowed. Feel free to advocate for stopping proselytizing of Islam in the West or wherever else you want - it would be hypocritical of me to cry foul. Otherwise allow it and you get to keep virtue-signalling points - congrats; we don't feel like budging on that one.

    punishable by the death penalty
     
    Prove it - show me the law where proselytizing is punishable by death according to the law - I'll stand corrected. Vigilante numskulls don't count.

    This system is called apartheid.
     
    If you mean that non-Muslims don't have exact equal rights in all aspects in Muslim lands, then yes - guilty as charged. We also don't let their men marry our women.

    Again, we aren't interested on budging on these; so feel free to draft reciprocal restrictive laws in the West. If some Muslims complain, simply point out the same rules in Muslim countries.

    Peace.
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  66. @anon

    . Israel’s 8m people make up barely 0.11% of the world’ population, yet this tiny little region is the source of all the never ending conflicts of the world
     
    Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed
    Nigerian occupation of Biafra - 2 million + killed
    Sudanese occupation of Darfur - 800,000 + killed
    Indonesian occupation of Papua -500,000+ killed
    Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara - 40,000 + killed
    Russian occupation of Dagestan , Checnhya ,Kaliningrad , Crimea -200,000+ killed
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus and Kurdistan - 70,000 + killed
    Chinese occupation of Tibet and Xinyang
    India Pakistan conflict
    North Korea conflict
    Basque separatist / Catalan separatist


    Yup looks like Isreal is the cause of ALL the ongoing conflicts in the world !!!!!
    Is your brain located adjacent to your prostate ???

    I miss the Israel/AIPAC inspired USA destruction of Iraq, one million deaths, large parts of the country uninhabitable for thousands of years, 2000 tons of depleted uranium burned.

    ” Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed”
    Maybe, and now some five million Palestinian refugees, and the Gaza concentration camp.

    The other things mentioned, do nog know enough about it to comment.
    Nigeria and Sudan, oil there is, again, important, despite the idea that we in a few years do not need oil any more.

    Kalingrad and Crimea, where did you find those fairy tales ?
    Cyprus, the whole population killed ?

    But I must agree, Israel does not cause all conflicts.
    Those that Israel causes are more than enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    The other things mentioned, do nog know enough about it to comment.
     
    Oh but a caring chap such as yourself would naturally familiarize yourself with such subjects , no ?
    I mean you are all worked up in a tizzy over a few thousand palestinians killed , how much more so would you be offended by regimes killing by the millions ? Unless you really don't care about palestinains per se , and just hate Jews ?

    Cyprus, the whole population killed ?
     
    Never said this . I said it was under Turkish occupation along with Kurdistan . I understand you are just throwing out a red herring to salvage your pride tho .

    But I must agree, Israel does not cause all conflicts
     
    . At least you can admit when you are wrong , although you still try to obfuscate and spread disinfo along with the admission.
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  67. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    There were hundreds of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims against specifically Christian targets in 2017 alone resulting in over 400 murders.
     
    That sounds about right. We have a pretty big Ummah compared to Jews so, by the numbers, even if Jews committed like 5 murders, we'd be on par capita-wise.

    Furthermore in 12 Islamic countries converting from Islam to Christianity is against the law and punishable by the death penalty
     
    Correct, this may or may not change in the future. I wrote about this here:
    http://www.unz.com/ldinh/florensac-olargues-pont-sainte-esprit-and-the-cia/#comment-1992034

    I think there will probably room for personal conversions, though I doubt preaching will be allowed. I mean, hell if the Greeks have the rule:
    "Constitution of Greece, Article 13: Freedom of Religion
    2. All known religions shall be free and their rites of worship shall be performed unhindered and under the protection of the law. The practice of rites of worship is not allowed to offend public order or the good usages. Proselytism is prohibited."
    https://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/quotes/constitution-of-greece-article-13-freedom-of-religion

    perhaps 99.99% of all Christians would choose to live under Jewish rule or Muslim rule
     
    I think you are right and should allow asylum for all persecuted Christians into Israel that will show you are honest about the topic and not trying to distract the issue.

    Peace.

    That sounds about right. We have a pretty big Ummah compared to Jews so, by the numbers, even if Jews committed like 5 murders, we’d be on par capita-wise.

    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric . I contend that even if the Jewish population increased tenfold you would still see zero terror attacks by Jews against Christians .

    I think there will probably room for personal conversions, though I doubt preaching will be allowed. I mean, hell if the Greeks have the rule:
    “Constitution of Greece, Article 13: Freedom of Religion
    2. All known religions shall be free and their rites of worship shall be performed unhindered and under the protection of the law. The practice of rites of worship is not allowed to offend public order or the good usages. Proselytism is prohibited

    .”

    Condmening Christians , Hindus , Buddhists, Jews ,Sikhs to death for proseltysing while allowing Muslims to proseletyse to any religous group is apartheid. Furthermore the Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing and are applying the penalties equally to all religions as opposed to Pakistan and many other countries favoring Islam in the legal system.

    I think you are right and should allow asylum for all persecuted Christians into Israel that will show you are honest about the topic and not trying to distract the issue.

    Im not trying to distract anything and I will go a step further . No need to cram the millions of Christians being persecuted in Muslim lands into the tiny land of Israel , which anyway has no space for such an endeavor . I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims. Coptic Egypt , Tunisia ,Algeria ,Morocco, Libya , Syria, Lebanon etc. I mean if you aren’t trying to distract than you would be on board right peaceful tahla ?

    By the way I think you use Isreal as a distraction from the myriad of Muslim occupation and colonization going on . I mean you must be 1000x more offended by the Muslim occupations of Papau, Darfur , Biafra , Cyprus , Kurdistan , Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt etc. I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric
     
    Sure, why would they commit terrorist acts when they can do it through state power? That is far more effective. Christian Palestinians in Gaza suffer under Israeli bombs just like Muslim ones. And they even shoot dead legless unarmed protesters:
    http://www.newsweek.com/man-wheelchair-killed-palestine-protesting-trumps-jerusalem-announcement-750019

    Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing
     
    I'm waiting for proof that Pakistan and other countries carry out the death penalty for proselytizing and not just jail time, exile, fine or some other punishment. You have made a claim, the burden of proof is on you.

    and are applying the penalties equally to all religions
     
    Incorrect - the Greek Orthodox Church has an exception as decided by their courts ruling on the article of the Constiution:
    "...establishes the freedom to practice any known religion and to perform rites of worship without hindrance and prohibits proselytism and all other activities directed against the dominant religion, that of the Christian Eastern Orthodox Church..."
    International Human Rights and Humanitarian Law: Treaties, Cases, and Analysis (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims.
     
    That's just silly - nobody is going to go back to original borders of ten centuries ago or 3000 years ago. How exactly was the ancient Kingdom of Israel established? Oh...

    That's the whole reason why we established the UN - to put a stop to people aggressively taking over territory. Muslims aren't going to apologize for bulldozing over the Byzantine Empire. It's not like they came about through handing out flowers and chocolates. If Christians want to throw away the current international framework and try to take those lands back, well - you have the address - come and take them.

    I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.
     
    Not really, they'll go the Sunni route soon enough:
    https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2015/09/24/e99cd043-f2dc-4cfa-b5a6-f7883abbe370/e99cd043-f2dc-4cfa-b5a6-f7883abbe370_16x9_788x442.jpg

    He married a Sunni wife from an elite family and now has three kids - how do you think they will be raised? Time and patience....

    Peace.
    , @renfro

    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric . I contend that even if the Jewish population increased tenfold you would still see zero terror attacks by Jews against Christians
     
    Bullshit. You're ignorant.

    Bombing of the Hotel David killing 42 British
    Bombing the USS Liberty killing 38 Americans

    Want go back to the good old days of 614 AD when Jews murdered 66,000 Christians during the Persian takeover of Jerusalem?
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  68. The prophecy of Gog and Magog is not in the Christian scriptures, but in the Jewish. Specifically Ezekial chapters 38 and 39. I know of no Christian that is lusting after bringing that battle about. That’s simply a standard leftist lie.

    Like it or not, Jerusalem is Israel’s eternal capital. That’s not a matter of what Christians, or anyone else, thinks, but one which God Himself established. Trump has simply given into God’s mandate and done the right thing.

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  69. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @jilles dykstra
    I miss the Israel/AIPAC inspired USA destruction of Iraq, one million deaths, large parts of the country uninhabitable for thousands of years, 2000 tons of depleted uranium burned.

    " Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed"
    Maybe, and now some five million Palestinian refugees, and the Gaza concentration camp.

    The other things mentioned, do nog know enough about it to comment.
    Nigeria and Sudan, oil there is, again, important, despite the idea that we in a few years do not need oil any more.

    Kalingrad and Crimea, where did you find those fairy tales ?
    Cyprus, the whole population killed ?

    But I must agree, Israel does not cause all conflicts.
    Those that Israel causes are more than enough.

    The other things mentioned, do nog know enough about it to comment.

    Oh but a caring chap such as yourself would naturally familiarize yourself with such subjects , no ?
    I mean you are all worked up in a tizzy over a few thousand palestinians killed , how much more so would you be offended by regimes killing by the millions ? Unless you really don’t care about palestinains per se , and just hate Jews ?

    Cyprus, the whole population killed ?

    Never said this . I said it was under Turkish occupation along with Kurdistan . I understand you are just throwing out a red herring to salvage your pride tho .

    But I must agree, Israel does not cause all conflicts

    . At least you can admit when you are wrong , although you still try to obfuscate and spread disinfo along with the admission.

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  70. RSDB says:
    @Talha
    Hey Che,

    sharing nation of birth with those ‘nutcases’
     
    Yeah sorry, as it's been pointed out, we are a bunch of inbred retards that eat far too many spices for our own good. Systemic issues are an obvious result. Have mercy upon us, we're too stupid to know better.

    If Anon is the same person that has been communicating with me, then I believe they are a Sri Lankan Christian male around 30 years of age. I have no clue if that has been consistent. I've asked whoever Anon is to pick a name (I suggested "Nom De Plume"), maybe you can get through to them.

    you are largely sharing the opinions of the ‘nutcases’ at heart
     
    Bakwas yaar!

    http://wildhunt.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/you-mad-bro-.jpg

    Peace.

    I often post under “Anon”*, though I’ve only made one comment on this thread, about the meaning of “ignorance”. I’m an American Catholic of mostly Ceylonese/Sri Lankan descent, for whatever that’s worth.

    On that subject, I recommended the article because you asked for a Christian view on that sort of thing. I’m glad to know it mostly coincides with the Muslim view, but what interests me, from when I used to read more history, is that in my impression medieval Muslim commentators would fairly often, when referring to an infidel, say “May God curse him!” or describe his death in the form “X died and went to hell”. Now certain Christians also sometimes assumed the latter, iirc including St. Francis Xavier though I cannot remember the passage; still it is very jarring and I am glad your more distinguished scholars are more reasonable.

    *In fact I generally do unless I have a good reason not to, like now. This is for several reasons, one of which is that when posting under “Anon” I’m mostly quite free with biographical data and I don’t want certain of the people here knowing my actual identity or that of the friends and relatives whose stories I might feel like giving.

    I think the (or one) other “anon” is some guy who posts mostly pro-Israeli stuff. That’s not really something in which I have an intense interest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RSDB
    It's possible this is the anon Che Guava meant: http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-crash-course-on-the-true-causes-of-anti-semitism/#comment-2025437 . I don't know if that fellow has written more stuff or not.

    edit: probably not at least in that vein, because he seems to have apologized further down the thread. I posted toward the tail end of that thread myself, though I guess I missed the drama.

    , @Talha
    Hey RSDB,

    Thanks for the info. I don't really have an issue with this, but some keep on accusing me of sock-puppetry for some reason. But they seem to have a personal grudge against me so...whatever. You can't please everyone. If you want to keep posting under Anon that's cool with me - I can pretty much tell when it's you anyway - everyone has their own style. Especially if you want to divulge personal stuff - totally understandable.

    Muslim commentators would fairly often, when referring to an infidel, say “May God curse him!” or describe his death in the form “X died and went to hell”.
     
    Depends on who they were talking about really. I've seen them say those kind of things to someone who was an enemy of the Muslims - maybe like a tyrannical Crusader king or some Mongol ruler, etc. And as far as consigning someone to Hell, I have been taught that this is a big no-no unless one has proof from scripture; as in the case of Pharoah or Abu Lahab or the like because one has no idea what the state of a person's heart was at the time of death. That is generally how I have seen most Muslim scholars operate, though some obviously may be less careful with their words.

    Individual Muslim scholars aren't perfect by any means - some of them for instance have been very big names even in the school that I follow, but were known to be bigoted and partisan when dealing with the other schools. So people took the good from them and discarded the rest.

    I think the (or one) other “anon” is some guy who posts mostly pro-Israeli stuff.
     
    Yeah - he's got his signature too - pretty easy to tell.

    I've learned from your posts - so thanks for that.

    Peace.
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  71. Talha says:
    @anon

    No – it’s not a lie. There is legally nothing blocking Pakistani Christians from worshiping as they like.
     
    Not true . Per Pakistani law , Christians in Pakistan have no religious freedom . Proseletysing is part of the Christian religion , however Christians proseletysing to Muslims is illegal in Pakistan and punishable by the death penalty . Of course Muslims are allowed to proseletyse to Chrstians . This system is called apartheid .

    Christians in Pakistan have no religious freedom

    I’m calling BS. So you mean there is no religious freedom in Greece? I just showed everyone what’s in their constitution and they have used it against minority groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    There is freedom to proselytize to other non-Muslims – just not Muslims. All countries restrict certain practices of others – I can’t marry three other women in the US now can I?

    Proseletysing is part of the Christian religion

    Yeah – sorry, that’s not allowed. Feel free to advocate for stopping proselytizing of Islam in the West or wherever else you want – it would be hypocritical of me to cry foul. Otherwise allow it and you get to keep virtue-signalling points – congrats; we don’t feel like budging on that one.

    punishable by the death penalty

    Prove it – show me the law where proselytizing is punishable by death according to the law – I’ll stand corrected. Vigilante numskulls don’t count.

    This system is called apartheid.

    If you mean that non-Muslims don’t have exact equal rights in all aspects in Muslim lands, then yes – guilty as charged. We also don’t let their men marry our women.

    Again, we aren’t interested on budging on these; so feel free to draft reciprocal restrictive laws in the West. If some Muslims complain, simply point out the same rules in Muslim countries.

    Peace.

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  72. Read More
    • Replies: @joe webb
    Jared Taylor is the best.

    Richard Spencer has apparently been abandoned by his crew, is drinking Bourbon by the glass, and can look back on his Good for the Jews behaviors as well as the jewyorktimes having made him the poster-boy of White Nationalism, and wonder if he peaked too soon.

    Taylor is circumspect as anyone with a large audience ought to be. Politics is the game, not juvenile pranks and knocking off caps of the Bourgeois boobs, whoever they might be. There is a decadence amongst the Spencer types...spewing their Nietzsche and national socialist toy SS isms around like Spencer said, "its 1933."

    What an idiot.

    The reason the jews & Co go after Taylor is that he is the most dangerous to them. Moderate, elegant, good looking, and reasonable.

    Joe Webb
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  73. joe webb says:

    Shamir is looking forward to a universalist multi racial state.

    The One State won’t be “Jewish”, and this is fine with me. There is no French state for pure ethnic French, but France is the state for all its inhabitants; there is no Islamic State anymore, but Syria for all Syrians, whether Muslims, Christians or adherents of other faiths. There is no reason to have a Jewish state, either. Let it be Israel/Palestine for all its dwellers.”

    Shamir thus sees the Great Melting Pot churning the DNA of Many into One. Once accomplished, the working classes can assault Capital and Marx’s Will will be done.. Revolution Resumes.

    Shamir is still a trot, a jew, and a slicker One Worlder, than his liberal cousins.

    The remark about France as a “state for all its inhabitants” should nudge you folks awake…inasmuch as France is rapidly becoming not a state for all its inhabitants, but a state with European Identity, if not White Nationalism, Rising. A real pundit…Shamir.

    Sharmir is a communist, and his Popular Frontism is visible. After that comes the United Front dominated by Trots…World Revolution on the March. Maybe a few decades away, but Marx Marches On.

    Wake up and smell the Camp of the Saints shit-burgers.

    Joe Webb

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    "Marx Marches On."

    But won't it be "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" in a few decades? There's a link to the English translation of Xi Jinping's address at the 19th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, but for some reason the UR software won't post the live link, so maybe you can copy/paste this to read the full speech. There have been highlights in various media, but no link I can find.


    "The importance of Marxism as a guiding ideology is better appreciated. Socialism with Chinese characteristics and the Chinese Dream have been embraced by our people. Core socialist values and
    fine traditional Chinese culture are alive in the people’s hearts."
     
    Start with
    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/download/
    Then
    Xi_Jinping's_report_at_19th_CPC_National_Congress.pdf

    Enter both as one line, no spaces. Enjoy.

    "Secure a Decisive Victory in Building a Moderately Prosperous
    Society in All Respects and Strive for the Great Success of
    Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era"

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  74. anon • Disclaimer says:

    The One State won’t be “Jewish”, and this is fine with me. There is no French state for pure ethnic French, but France is the state for all its inhabitants

    Shamir is an Islam-firster. One Jewish state is too much for him , one French state is also too much , however 54 Islamic supremacist states is fine . No mention of those .

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  75. RobinG says:
    @Greg Bacon

    By contrast in Israel there is no law against converstion to or from any faith.
     
    Bollocks!
    Try walking down an Orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem, preaching the Bible and offering to convert, you'll get your head bashed in by peace-loving Jews who hate Christians and their Lord Jesus Christ.
    Try the same in Occupied Hebron where the Hasidics have stolen many a Palestinian apartment and from there, launch projectiles against the poor souls underneath. Try Thumping the Bible there and you'll wind up in a hospital or maybe even a morgue.

    BTW, there are laws in Israel that prevent Christians from preaching....

    On Dec. 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for missionaries to proselytize Jews. Protestant churches charged that the law had been “hastily pushed through parliament during the Christmas period when Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major festival.” The law made missionaries liable to five years’ imprisonment for attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years’ imprisonment for any Jew who converted. The United Christian Council complained that the law could be “misused in restricting religious freedom in Israel.”

    http://ifamericaknew.org/history/rel-christians.html
     
    Then there is the deluded fire-breathing--and throwing--Israelis who torch on a regular basis Christian churches in Israel.

    But you won't hear that sleazy Hagee saying anything about that, he's probably angling for a FREE personal jet, just like the one Israel gave to another fraud, Jerry Falwell.

    Don’t forget, Jews can’t marry a non-Jew in Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Z-man
    Yes but the Zionist Beast will never agree to this.
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  76. RSDB says:
    @RSDB
    I often post under "Anon"*, though I've only made one comment on this thread, about the meaning of "ignorance". I'm an American Catholic of mostly Ceylonese/Sri Lankan descent, for whatever that's worth.

    On that subject, I recommended the article because you asked for a Christian view on that sort of thing. I'm glad to know it mostly coincides with the Muslim view, but what interests me, from when I used to read more history, is that in my impression medieval Muslim commentators would fairly often, when referring to an infidel, say "May God curse him!" or describe his death in the form "X died and went to hell". Now certain Christians also sometimes assumed the latter, iirc including St. Francis Xavier though I cannot remember the passage; still it is very jarring and I am glad your more distinguished scholars are more reasonable.

    *In fact I generally do unless I have a good reason not to, like now. This is for several reasons, one of which is that when posting under "Anon" I'm mostly quite free with biographical data and I don't want certain of the people here knowing my actual identity or that of the friends and relatives whose stories I might feel like giving.

    I think the (or one) other "anon" is some guy who posts mostly pro-Israeli stuff. That's not really something in which I have an intense interest.

    It’s possible this is the anon Che Guava meant: http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-crash-course-on-the-true-causes-of-anti-semitism/#comment-2025437 . I don’t know if that fellow has written more stuff or not.

    edit: probably not at least in that vein, because he seems to have apologized further down the thread. I posted toward the tail end of that thread myself, though I guess I missed the drama.

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  77. bjondo says:
    @Dutch Boy
    Since we have no dog in the Palestinian/Israeli fight, we ought to butt out and let them settle the matter. That especially means stopping the $4 billion yearly subsidy to Israel.

    the dogs we and the brits have are the dogs of the original problem and the continuing problem. aiding and abetting the lunatic monsters.

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  78. bjondo says:
    @Israel Shamir
    The Church of Resurrection (=Holy Sepulchre) is shared by Catholics, Orthodox, and smaller churches. They compete for territory and time, and a Muslim guardian is vastly preferred to any Christian, for this reason. In short, the Christians are content with the arrangement.

    and my experience with muslims
    they are honest
    not like the grk ortho
    selling out

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  79. RobinG says:
    @joe webb
    Shamir is looking forward to a universalist multi racial state.

    The One State won’t be “Jewish”, and this is fine with me. There is no French state for pure ethnic French, but France is the state for all its inhabitants; there is no Islamic State anymore, but Syria for all Syrians, whether Muslims, Christians or adherents of other faiths. There is no reason to have a Jewish state, either. Let it be Israel/Palestine for all its dwellers."

    Shamir thus sees the Great Melting Pot churning the DNA of Many into One. Once accomplished, the working classes can assault Capital and Marx's Will will be done.. Revolution Resumes.

    Shamir is still a trot, a jew, and a slicker One Worlder, than his liberal cousins.

    The remark about France as a "state for all its inhabitants" should nudge you folks awake...inasmuch as France is rapidly becoming not a state for all its inhabitants, but a state with European Identity, if not White Nationalism, Rising. A real pundit...Shamir.

    Sharmir is a communist, and his Popular Frontism is visible. After that comes the United Front dominated by Trots...World Revolution on the March. Maybe a few decades away, but Marx Marches On.

    Wake up and smell the Camp of the Saints shit-burgers.

    Joe Webb

    “Marx Marches On.”

    But won’t it be “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” in a few decades? There’s a link to the English translation of Xi Jinping’s address at the 19th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, but for some reason the UR software won’t post the live link, so maybe you can copy/paste this to read the full speech. There have been highlights in various media, but no link I can find.

    “The importance of Marxism as a guiding ideology is better appreciated. Socialism with Chinese characteristics and the Chinese Dream have been embraced by our people. Core socialist values and
    fine traditional Chinese culture are alive in the people’s hearts.”

    Start with

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/download/

    Then
    Xi_Jinping’s_report_at_19th_CPC_National_Congress.pdf

    Enter both as one line, no spaces. Enjoy.

    “Secure a Decisive Victory in Building a Moderately Prosperous
    Society in All Respects and Strive for the Great Success of
    Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era”

    Read More
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  80. joe webb says:

    No multi-racial state has ever survived for long, or….survives crippled by race conflict. Ditto multi-religions.

    Take Venezuela for example, currently crumbling due to its Fidelismo/Chavezismo. It is about two-thirds injun and mestizo and one -third White.

    My favorite from a few years ago, an injun peasant said: “Hugo is going to build me a house.”

    Israel’s jewish IQ is not as high as Ashkenazis in Europe and the US, but it is high enough to dominate Arabs, with their average IQ of 85. That is another fatal flaw in the silliness of Shamir and One World in Israel/Palestine.

    Shamir never has anything to say about US Blacks and their problems, starting with the same average IQ of Arabs….85.

    Of course, Shamir is not in the 21st century with socio-biology/HBD contributing to a deep understanding of behavior. It is the Genes…not Capitalism there Adam First Man, or has that been shelved as a bit embarrassing…ergo Ego?

    Trump is going to start another war for the Jews and perhaps Shamir has not fathomed that one, which includes another tribal wave of “refugees” sandbagging Europe’s liberals. However, Good for Whites with regard to another wake-up call from Darwin, who of course was a total racialist.

    Even Uncle Karl was a Darwinian, and routinely, like everybody else in Europe, used the N word liberally. He exempted the rest of the world from the dynamics of Capital/Dialectical Materialism because the rest of the world was Oriental Despotism.

    Only whites were capable of capitalism…a rationalizing economics as opposed to mercantilism, etc.

    I guess Adam, I mean Israel, has forgotten that one. The East, Africa, Arabia, etc. is what it is and the West is White and never shall they meet as recognizable to one-another. The one exception is money, and liberal elites cashing in…ka-chingk! Universal Elites feeding at the trough, and talking race equality, and Free Trade.

    Right now Breitbart has a piece on Bannon delivering the goods about China’s mercantilism. He blows the whistle on the liberal free traders who promised the Chinese would Change…ha ha, and become cooperating world citizens. Yup.

    Shamir is a liberal world citizen and a communist hater of capitalism… and his Doctor Feel-Good optimism is….whadayacall it?…. a kind of marxist Doctor Pangloss. pie in the sky by and by, of course, still ruled by Jew Rules.

    Joe Webb

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  81. bjondo says:
    @anon

    . Israel’s 8m people make up barely 0.11% of the world’ population, yet this tiny little region is the source of all the never ending conflicts of the world
     
    Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed
    Nigerian occupation of Biafra - 2 million + killed
    Sudanese occupation of Darfur - 800,000 + killed
    Indonesian occupation of Papua -500,000+ killed
    Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara - 40,000 + killed
    Russian occupation of Dagestan , Checnhya ,Kaliningrad , Crimea -200,000+ killed
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus and Kurdistan - 70,000 + killed
    Chinese occupation of Tibet and Xinyang
    India Pakistan conflict
    North Korea conflict
    Basque separatist / Catalan separatist


    Yup looks like Isreal is the cause of ALL the ongoing conflicts in the world !!!!!
    Is your brain located adjacent to your prostate ???

    let us celebrate hanaka
    a celebration of jew slaughtering jew
    and in modern times
    jew slaughtering uncountable
    enjoy

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  82. Z-man says:
    @RobinG
    Don't forget, Jews can't marry a non-Jew in Israel.

    Yes but the Zionist Beast will never agree to this.

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  83. joe webb says:
    @Priss Factor
    https://twitter.com/MemeAlertNews/status/942802159225188358

    Jared Taylor has always been careful on the Jewish Question and he reached out to Jewish supporters of White Advocacy.

    But in the ADL Purge at Twitter, he was the first one targeted. It's called the Twitter Purge, but ADL is the leading force behind it. So, it should really be called ADL purge.

    Hmmm.

    Jared Taylor is the best.

    Richard Spencer has apparently been abandoned by his crew, is drinking Bourbon by the glass, and can look back on his Good for the Jews behaviors as well as the jewyorktimes having made him the poster-boy of White Nationalism, and wonder if he peaked too soon.

    Taylor is circumspect as anyone with a large audience ought to be. Politics is the game, not juvenile pranks and knocking off caps of the Bourgeois boobs, whoever they might be. There is a decadence amongst the Spencer types…spewing their Nietzsche and national socialist toy SS isms around like Spencer said, “its 1933.”

    What an idiot.

    The reason the jews & Co go after Taylor is that he is the most dangerous to them. Moderate, elegant, good looking, and reasonable.

    Joe Webb

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    Taylor makes good sense, but he lacks vision.

    Spencer has vision even if I don't agree with it.

    Taylor is a perfect gentleman, but gentlemen don't make history in the end, esp if they don't have power. Also, the game of power has little use for facts and reason. Power will mold facts and reason to serve any Vision.

    Like it or not, the globalist elites do have a powerful vision of uniting the world with PC and Pop Culture and US military might and Wall Street finance. Jewish Money, Jungle Boogie, and Justice Junkies. And masses of sheeple addicted to celeb culture.
    Shallow and crass perhaps but powerful and intoxicating because it manipulates the vanity of self-righteousness and pleasure of vice and self-indulgence, all wrapped up in homomania. Power of media amplifies these drives and manias.

    Against such power, Taylor's arguments may be sound and factual, but they are ineffective. It's like facts and data sound 'boring' and 'little' when spoken before two giant speakers blasting music that energize the masses with chants, mantras, and the beat.
    Rappers talk crap but why do they have such power? They are thunderous. They don't argue. They command and demand respect. And before we are rational beings, we are emotional and sensual beings, and expression trumps exegesis. Consider the success of STAR WARS. Silly stuff, but people all over pay bucks to see the Force.

    Spencer is not the 'one', but he understands that a vision has to be countered by another powerful vision. And this takes boldness, leaps of imagination, and etc.
    He has smart people around him, but they are not quite first-rate.

    But he is onto something, and he is committed.

    So, even if he is not the One, he has set forth a template that this thing has to be more than facts, data, logic, good sense. It has to about a vision so powerful and intoxicating that white patriots and warriors are willing to kill for it, die for it.

    Vanguard offers the Vision. Ultimately, Spencer is too limited in imagination and scope to see it all the way. But he paved some of the way for someone else.
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  84. Talha says:
    @RSDB
    I often post under "Anon"*, though I've only made one comment on this thread, about the meaning of "ignorance". I'm an American Catholic of mostly Ceylonese/Sri Lankan descent, for whatever that's worth.

    On that subject, I recommended the article because you asked for a Christian view on that sort of thing. I'm glad to know it mostly coincides with the Muslim view, but what interests me, from when I used to read more history, is that in my impression medieval Muslim commentators would fairly often, when referring to an infidel, say "May God curse him!" or describe his death in the form "X died and went to hell". Now certain Christians also sometimes assumed the latter, iirc including St. Francis Xavier though I cannot remember the passage; still it is very jarring and I am glad your more distinguished scholars are more reasonable.

    *In fact I generally do unless I have a good reason not to, like now. This is for several reasons, one of which is that when posting under "Anon" I'm mostly quite free with biographical data and I don't want certain of the people here knowing my actual identity or that of the friends and relatives whose stories I might feel like giving.

    I think the (or one) other "anon" is some guy who posts mostly pro-Israeli stuff. That's not really something in which I have an intense interest.

    Hey RSDB,

    Thanks for the info. I don’t really have an issue with this, but some keep on accusing me of sock-puppetry for some reason. But they seem to have a personal grudge against me so…whatever. You can’t please everyone. If you want to keep posting under Anon that’s cool with me – I can pretty much tell when it’s you anyway – everyone has their own style. Especially if you want to divulge personal stuff – totally understandable.

    Muslim commentators would fairly often, when referring to an infidel, say “May God curse him!” or describe his death in the form “X died and went to hell”.

    Depends on who they were talking about really. I’ve seen them say those kind of things to someone who was an enemy of the Muslims – maybe like a tyrannical Crusader king or some Mongol ruler, etc. And as far as consigning someone to Hell, I have been taught that this is a big no-no unless one has proof from scripture; as in the case of Pharoah or Abu Lahab or the like because one has no idea what the state of a person’s heart was at the time of death. That is generally how I have seen most Muslim scholars operate, though some obviously may be less careful with their words.

    Individual Muslim scholars aren’t perfect by any means – some of them for instance have been very big names even in the school that I follow, but were known to be bigoted and partisan when dealing with the other schools. So people took the good from them and discarded the rest.

    I think the (or one) other “anon” is some guy who posts mostly pro-Israeli stuff.

    Yeah – he’s got his signature too – pretty easy to tell.

    I’ve learned from your posts – so thanks for that.

    Peace.

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  85. joe webb says:
    @Brabantian
    Was it Israel Shamir himself, who some time back suggested that Donald Trump would cleverly undermine Israel & Jewish power ... by appearing to give Israeli Jews what they greedily want, and thus use Jewish over-reach to sabotage both the Zionist project & Jewish influence in the world? Is Trump perhaps using the one strategem that will work in reversing Zionist might, which is too dangerous and powerful to confront directly?

    Multiple points in Shamir's article above quite support this view. As Shamir notes, the Palestinians and Muslims as a whole - Saudi regime fools aside - have become united across sectarian and partisan divides as they would not have been without Trump's move. The 'One State for Palestine-Israel' agenda has been strengthened with perhaps now unstoppable momentum. The world community is much closer to declaring racial-law Israel an apartheid state, and isolating it as a pariah.

    There is a view that Trump, who knows the Jewish mentality well, having spent his entire career amidst it, from his earliest days with mobster Meyer Lansky's friend Roy Cohn - that Trump's gambit with approving Jerusalem as the capital, annexing more of the West Bank etc ... is precisely Trump's revenge for a lifetime of being forced to cater to Jews and to Jewish mafias, in the cut-throat world of New York and New Jersey development and real estate, not to mention Trump's recent forced subservience to Chabad etc influence in the White House. And so perhaps, the decline in Israeli & Jewish power that now snowballs as a result of Trump's actions, is Trump's secret pleasure.

    It is possible as well, that Trump is shaking the table in order to let the mid-east dominoes fall into conflict, Israel with its neighbours, & the Muslim factions against each other as Saudi deviousness is exposed ... ultimately buttressing Trump's anti-immigration, ring-fence-the-Anglo-culture positioning, as the world watches mid-East nations heat up conflict out of what can be portrayed as their inner nature. Trump is perhaps lighting up the mid-East on purpose, as the best tool he has to demolish both Jewish influence, and Islamist-fellow-traveller fake progressives in the West.

    Nice try there B. I used to kinda think like you in this regard, but I have abandoned it now. Your view is a real stretch, given the war that Trump seems to be starting. I have argued that a new tidal wave of Arabs hitting Europe is Good for White Revolt, but I don’t think Trump has thought this through.

    How your “jewish Influence” is to be reduced per your argument, escapes me.

    It is true that another war-for-the-jews will become even more an embarrassment for jews, but it could harm Trump electorally. In the news the other day was an article on a poll that showed younger evangelicals as significantly less in love with the jews/Israel. This is probably part of the general erosion in the US and Europe of support for jews.

    If you have a larger argument in all of this , I would like to see it.

    Joe Webb

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  86. @Che Guava
    Mr. Shamir,

    That is a great and very thought-provoking article, on many points.

    I could add to some. However, you have too many liars in the replies, and I am likely to having the largest molar on one side extracted tomorrow, so need to sleeping soon. I once read that having all teeth extracted will kill anyone over thirty or so, it will be a uniquely ugly experience, but maybe not until next year.

    At work end-of-year party, talking about Catholic Christmas Mass, they were saying 'if you are there alone, it will not be happy'. None a Catholic, but I am thinking they are correct.

    So, I will just say, merry Christmas to you, I may find an old-calendar Orthodox service on my brief escape from Tokyo, maybe going to a Catholic service next weekend.

    Dear Che, wishing you luck with this dental operation. Indeed it is very unpleasant thing. My advice: immediately implant a new tooth on its place. Without teeth, one gets morbid thoughts. I noticed it has a great psychological impact as if a man without teeth is doomed for speedy death.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    What a crock. Do you hate Che so much that you make up this psy-op? Morbid thoughts indeed. The loss of a rear molar is barely noted, often forgotten. And implants are not without adverse risk.
    , @Che Guava
    Dear Mr. Shamir.

    Thank you,

    The dentist said it looks like only gum problem, so wait until next year. I am thinking the dentist who was brutally extracting a molar three or so years ago, telling me root-canal was impossible is a lazy fool, you are right, the one time I had root-canal torture, ten or so years ago, it was worth the pain and discomfort, a good clinic, but closed now, it is feeling like a natural tooth soon after the procedure.

    Background music, Lennon and Ono's overplayed Christmas song. Ono was hated here for a long time, except for some older people who liked some of her art (and, if one is to looking at her earlier work in physical media, some of it is very good).

    If one is to looking at her performance art, well, I am not liking the 'look at me' factor of almost all of performance art, but if that former Yugoslavia Jewish lady (Abramovic, I think) is any good (i don't), anything she is doing is in the shadow of Ono's Cut Piece, many years earlier.

    Since Ono was also a cutter long before it was teen fashion (as moi, and my currently estranged closest friend (Marianite) also were), it has some resonance. ... but

    A BGM pop version of 'Gloria, in Excelcis Deo' is floating about at one convenience chain this year. Ugly. I love to sing the real one. That is truly sacrilege.

    Excuse the digressions (coherent but wandering, I think, stopping there, should writing an essay), thank you for your kind reply, good advice, and, as ever, good and thought-provoking article.

    Che.
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  87. There is a shortened form of this article available on my site, specially prepared for those short on time and patience

    http://www.israelshamir.com/article/american-gestalt/

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  88. In case anyone has forgotten, these tragicomically benighted American Dispensationalists believe”Babylon” is the Catholic Church, the “Whore of Babylon.” These strange hillbillies worship those who style themselves “Jews” and save their vitriolic hate for Catholics – especially Jesuits. Jesuits are the source of all evil in the world for these new Cathars or Hussites or whatever they are.

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  89. Talha says:
    @anon

    That sounds about right. We have a pretty big Ummah compared to Jews so, by the numbers, even if Jews committed like 5 murders, we’d be on par capita-wise.
     
    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric . I contend that even if the Jewish population increased tenfold you would still see zero terror attacks by Jews against Christians .

    I think there will probably room for personal conversions, though I doubt preaching will be allowed. I mean, hell if the Greeks have the rule:
    “Constitution of Greece, Article 13: Freedom of Religion
    2. All known religions shall be free and their rites of worship shall be performed unhindered and under the protection of the law. The practice of rites of worship is not allowed to offend public order or the good usages. Proselytism is prohibited
     
    .”

    Condmening Christians , Hindus , Buddhists, Jews ,Sikhs to death for proseltysing while allowing Muslims to proseletyse to any religous group is apartheid. Furthermore the Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing and are applying the penalties equally to all religions as opposed to Pakistan and many other countries favoring Islam in the legal system.

    I think you are right and should allow asylum for all persecuted Christians into Israel that will show you are honest about the topic and not trying to distract the issue.
     
    Im not trying to distract anything and I will go a step further . No need to cram the millions of Christians being persecuted in Muslim lands into the tiny land of Israel , which anyway has no space for such an endeavor . I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims. Coptic Egypt , Tunisia ,Algeria ,Morocco, Libya , Syria, Lebanon etc. I mean if you aren't trying to distract than you would be on board right peaceful tahla ?

    By the way I think you use Isreal as a distraction from the myriad of Muslim occupation and colonization going on . I mean you must be 1000x more offended by the Muslim occupations of Papau, Darfur , Biafra , Cyprus , Kurdistan , Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt etc. I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.

    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric

    Sure, why would they commit terrorist acts when they can do it through state power? That is far more effective. Christian Palestinians in Gaza suffer under Israeli bombs just like Muslim ones. And they even shoot dead legless unarmed protesters:

    http://www.newsweek.com/man-wheelchair-killed-palestine-protesting-trumps-jerusalem-announcement-750019

    Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing

    I’m waiting for proof that Pakistan and other countries carry out the death penalty for proselytizing and not just jail time, exile, fine or some other punishment. You have made a claim, the burden of proof is on you.

    and are applying the penalties equally to all religions

    Incorrect – the Greek Orthodox Church has an exception as decided by their courts ruling on the article of the Constiution:
    “…establishes the freedom to practice any known religion and to perform rites of worship without hindrance and prohibits proselytism and all other activities directed against the dominant religion, that of the Christian Eastern Orthodox Church…”
    International Human Rights and Humanitarian Law: Treaties, Cases, and Analysis (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims.

    That’s just silly – nobody is going to go back to original borders of ten centuries ago or 3000 years ago. How exactly was the ancient Kingdom of Israel established? Oh…

    That’s the whole reason why we established the UN – to put a stop to people aggressively taking over territory. Muslims aren’t going to apologize for bulldozing over the Byzantine Empire. It’s not like they came about through handing out flowers and chocolates. If Christians want to throw away the current international framework and try to take those lands back, well – you have the address – come and take them.

    I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.

    Not really, they’ll go the Sunni route soon enough:

    He married a Sunni wife from an elite family and now has three kids – how do you think they will be raised? Time and patience….

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @anon

    Sure, why would they commit terrorist acts when they can do it through state power? That is far more effective.
     
    First you suggested that Muslims commit more terrorism than other groups because they have higher numbers .You suggested 400-500 Christians killed in deliberate terror attacks against Christian targets in 2017 was comparable to 5 Christians killed by Jews deliberately targeting Christians. When I pointed out that there were zero instances of Jews targeting Christians in terror attacks, now you move the goal line and suggest that this is because Jews have a military in the Jewish state .

    But if that is the case why is there still individual level Muslim terror attacks outnumbering all other religions when there are 54 Islamic republics with their own military committing terror attacks on their religious minorities ? Muslims commit state terror and individual terror acts at levels not seen in any other group so again your justifications and lies come up short.


    nobody is going to go back to original borders of ten centuries ago or 3000 years ago
     
    There were no Muslims 3,000 years ago but the globe is rife with examples of borders usurped and colonized and occupied with genocide and ethnic cleansing by rape by Muslims in the past 50 years or so :
    Indonesian occupation of Papua : 1963 to present . 138,000 square miles occupied , 500,000 + killed. Worse than Israel by every imaginable metric . By the way how many Papuans are worth one Palestinian to you ?? All of them ?
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus, Turkish occupation of Kurdistan , Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara , Nigerian occupation of Biafra , Sudanese occupation of Darfur , Jordanian occupation of Palestine &c. &c. Millions killed and hundreds of thousands of square miles occupied in these examples . Any of these recent enough for your taste ?? All hugely worse by 100x times of anything Israel has done .

    Not really, they’ll go the Sunni route soon enough:
     

    That is a prediction but at the moment occcupied by Alawites.

    Why even bother mentioning Isarel when your own co-religionists are killing in numbers 1000X higher . Clean your own house , after all it is the filthiest one on the planet .

    , @Seraphim
    Do you realize that by justifying Muslim theft of territories you nullify any indignation at the theft of 'Muslim' territories by Jews, Zionists, Crusaders, Christians?
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  90. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Che Guava
    Mr. Shamir,

    That is a great and very thought-provoking article, on many points.

    I could add to some. However, you have too many liars in the replies, and I am likely to having the largest molar on one side extracted tomorrow, so need to sleeping soon. I once read that having all teeth extracted will kill anyone over thirty or so, it will be a uniquely ugly experience, but maybe not until next year.

    At work end-of-year party, talking about Catholic Christmas Mass, they were saying 'if you are there alone, it will not be happy'. None a Catholic, but I am thinking they are correct.

    So, I will just say, merry Christmas to you, I may find an old-calendar Orthodox service on my brief escape from Tokyo, maybe going to a Catholic service next weekend.

    Che:
    Best of luck, and I hope you find a beautiful, congenial Mass to go to. Christ is there. This is fragment of a beautiful poem by Therese of Avila for just such occasions, though the translation is much less lyrical than the original:

    That nothing disturb you,
    That nothing frighten you,
    Everything passes,
    God does not change.
    Patience will everything obtain.
    Whoever has God
    is lacking for nothing.
    Alone God is enough.

    The poem may be based on Jesus’ exhortation to His disciples in John 14: “Let not your hearts be troubled neither let them be afraid.” This is the original, in her handwriting:

    Merry Christmas.

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    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Thank you,
    , @Che Guava
    Thank you.

    Beautiful poem.

    I am surprised how much of the handwritten words i am able to read (as in understand, not all, but most).

    Also surprised that you are feeling the need to post as anon (although, unlike many others who do, I can't discern your usual u-name).

    I feel, for an anon, and really, in general , too early for Christmas greetings, unless almost surely not to encountering again before, or too much later.

    So, thinking of Advent.
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  91. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Pity Shamir does not see, or write, that the whole of Israel should be returned to Palestinians, in principle.
    If the Arabian Liga proposition still exists, I do not know.
    But it was or is a practical solution:
    - paying the Palestinians for what was stolen and destroyed prior to 1967
    - returning to the Palestinians what wat stolen in 1967 and thereafter.
    A survey some years ago showed that some 90% of the then some 400.000 jews in the West Bank were willing to leave, on condition that they were compensated for the loss of their houses there.
    The above is far cheaper, I suppose, than having the third strongest military force on earth.

    When Shamir writes about THE Americans, he is referring to USA citizens, I fear he's suffering from a profound illusion.
    See the complaint here a few days ago by a writer about anti semitic reactions.

    In Europe the same, more and more complaints about anti semitism.
    On Belgian tv even a professor stating about jews something like, translating emotions like this is difficult, 'I regard jews as nasty people, they steal scientific discoveries'.
    Next day, of course, from a jew, 'most antisemitic remark in recent times'.
    Never comment on the substance.

    Informative, thank you. It is a practical solution (if Israel was really looking for a fairish one), but since it de facto implies some admission of wrongdoing (taking by force = reparations) it would tarnish the jewish monopoly of suffering. And monopolies are very lucrative.

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  92. RobinG says:
    @Israel Shamir
    Dear Che, wishing you luck with this dental operation. Indeed it is very unpleasant thing. My advice: immediately implant a new tooth on its place. Without teeth, one gets morbid thoughts. I noticed it has a great psychological impact as if a man without teeth is doomed for speedy death.

    What a crock. Do you hate Che so much that you make up this psy-op? Morbid thoughts indeed. The loss of a rear molar is barely noted, often forgotten. And implants are not without adverse risk.

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  93. Seraphim says:
    @Talha

    those who reject the Christ do not get a choice of ice cream or cookies, but a reckoning....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
     
    Thanks for the clarification.

    From where I’m standing, there’s not much difference between that and “threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell”.

    Peace.

    From where you are standing it looks like there’s ‘not much difference’, implying that there is a (false) equivalence between Islam and Christianity. But you are standing in the wrong place and your perspective is skewed.
    There is no equivalence. Christianity’s perspective is true, because it was revealed by the Holy Spirit of God through the incarnate Son. Islam was ‘revealed’ by a jinn to a mere mortal.
    ‘Jibril’ who told Mary the daughter of Imran and sister of Moses : “5 Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah”, was NOT the Archangel Gabriel who told The Blessed Virgin Mary: ““Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    Can you see any equivalence here? Necessarily one of the affirmations is false. There is no doubt which one is. The account of the Gospels is the true one, however much the Islamic commentators try to ‘demonstrate’ that the Gospel as they stand are ‘corrupt’.
    BTW, the Christians in Islamic purview are the ones using those ‘corrupt’ texts of which they are enjoined to ‘desist’. They are ‘tolerated’ only if they pay protection money to the ‘Ummah’ mafia. Jews too.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    Islam was ‘revealed’ by a jinn to a mere mortal.
     
    LOL! Man you are awesome! I think you really ought to debate some Muslims and post it on youtube or something!

    Necessarily one of the affirmations is false. There is no doubt which one is. The account of the Gospels is the true one...
     
    Yeah - that's the point. Thanks for your opinion for why you are a Christian. Not like I was expecting you to say the Qur'an was true or something - that would have been weird.

    So yeah - you agree; because I reject Christianity - I'm going to burn in a lake of fire. So stop virtue-signaling - as if you don't do the same thing - you just say it's justified because you say you're right. Do you really think that's convincing, like because you say so? We say, we're right - because we're awesome - and there is no doubt to our awesomeness - so there!

    They are ‘tolerated’ only if they pay protection money to the ‘Ummah’ mafia.
     
    I don't think any Muslim country charges jizya any more. Can you find evidence of any that do? As far as the past - yeah, pay your taxes or sign up to help defend the borders like the Jarajimah if you are an able-bodied man:
    “Early Muslim rulers have at times entered dhimmah agreements which eliminated the jizyah altogether—as in the agreement entered during the time of the second caliph `Umar with the Turkish tribe of Jarajimah which welcomed the Muslim forces and declared its dislike of the Romans, but stipulated that its members be allowed to remain Christian; this was agreed…The tribe also agreed to help the Muslims in the event of any military engagement with the Romans. The Muslim party agreed in return to protect the tribe and also relieved its members from payment of jizyah.”
    http://arts.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/2297733/ISIS_Origins,-Ideology,-and-Responses-by-Mainstream-Muslim-Scholars.pdf

    Women, children and elderly get a free ride, but men shouldn't be pansies and expect to have their borders defended for free.

    Peace.
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  94. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    those who reject the Christ do not get a choice of ice cream or cookies, but a reckoning....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
     
    Thanks for the clarification.

    From where I’m standing, there’s not much difference between that and “threatening the ‘disbelievers’ with the fire of hell”.

    Peace.

    What about the tally for murders? How many killed by Mahoma, how many by Christ? Do you perceive a difference there? Would that be an essential distinction for their followers? Normative, so to speak?

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    • Replies: @Talha

    What about the tally for murders?
     
    Depends on the conflict; military deaths in war aren't murders. Massacres of women and children certainly are.

    Do you perceive a difference there?
     
    Depends, the Son of Mary (pbuh) left after his Makkah stage. The Prophet (pbuh) also ordered his flock to be completely non-violent at that stage - so the record is the same if you compare apples for apples.

    The Son of Mary (pbuh) will return for his Madinah stage - and the nations will be forced to bend the knee. There will be blood and steel and fire, read Revelation and other chapters talking about his return. Our sources are in agreement, it will not be pleasant for those who oppose him.

    Would that be an essential distinction for their followers?
     
    Yeah - you should read about what happened in the early stages before Christianity went imperial; their priests, libraries, churches were destroyed. Muslims don't play that game. You'd really like to shame us into rolling over and playing dead and abandoning our claim to al-Quds and wash our hands of our brothers in Palestine kind of like so many Christians have. Sorry, it's not going to be that easy.

    And as far as historical record; Christian history is hardly less bloody than the Muslim one and in fact has more blood on its hands:
    http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#20worst

    See, the thing is people want to look at the current stage of history and draw all their conclusions. That is silly - anyone with an inkling of European history knows how bloody Christians can be. I mean, look at the border between France and Germany; see how it's quiet now. That's not normal - that's a historical anomaly.

    If you were bringing up your arguments in the 1940's the Muslim world would be laughing at you.

    Peace.
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  95. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric
     
    Sure, why would they commit terrorist acts when they can do it through state power? That is far more effective. Christian Palestinians in Gaza suffer under Israeli bombs just like Muslim ones. And they even shoot dead legless unarmed protesters:
    http://www.newsweek.com/man-wheelchair-killed-palestine-protesting-trumps-jerusalem-announcement-750019

    Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing
     
    I'm waiting for proof that Pakistan and other countries carry out the death penalty for proselytizing and not just jail time, exile, fine or some other punishment. You have made a claim, the burden of proof is on you.

    and are applying the penalties equally to all religions
     
    Incorrect - the Greek Orthodox Church has an exception as decided by their courts ruling on the article of the Constiution:
    "...establishes the freedom to practice any known religion and to perform rites of worship without hindrance and prohibits proselytism and all other activities directed against the dominant religion, that of the Christian Eastern Orthodox Church..."
    International Human Rights and Humanitarian Law: Treaties, Cases, and Analysis (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims.
     
    That's just silly - nobody is going to go back to original borders of ten centuries ago or 3000 years ago. How exactly was the ancient Kingdom of Israel established? Oh...

    That's the whole reason why we established the UN - to put a stop to people aggressively taking over territory. Muslims aren't going to apologize for bulldozing over the Byzantine Empire. It's not like they came about through handing out flowers and chocolates. If Christians want to throw away the current international framework and try to take those lands back, well - you have the address - come and take them.

    I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.
     
    Not really, they'll go the Sunni route soon enough:
    https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2015/09/24/e99cd043-f2dc-4cfa-b5a6-f7883abbe370/e99cd043-f2dc-4cfa-b5a6-f7883abbe370_16x9_788x442.jpg

    He married a Sunni wife from an elite family and now has three kids - how do you think they will be raised? Time and patience....

    Peace.

    Sure, why would they commit terrorist acts when they can do it through state power? That is far more effective.

    First you suggested that Muslims commit more terrorism than other groups because they have higher numbers .You suggested 400-500 Christians killed in deliberate terror attacks against Christian targets in 2017 was comparable to 5 Christians killed by Jews deliberately targeting Christians. When I pointed out that there were zero instances of Jews targeting Christians in terror attacks, now you move the goal line and suggest that this is because Jews have a military in the Jewish state .

    But if that is the case why is there still individual level Muslim terror attacks outnumbering all other religions when there are 54 Islamic republics with their own military committing terror attacks on their religious minorities ? Muslims commit state terror and individual terror acts at levels not seen in any other group so again your justifications and lies come up short.

    nobody is going to go back to original borders of ten centuries ago or 3000 years ago

    There were no Muslims 3,000 years ago but the globe is rife with examples of borders usurped and colonized and occupied with genocide and ethnic cleansing by rape by Muslims in the past 50 years or so :
    Indonesian occupation of Papua : 1963 to present . 138,000 square miles occupied , 500,000 + killed. Worse than Israel by every imaginable metric . By the way how many Papuans are worth one Palestinian to you ?? All of them ?
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus, Turkish occupation of Kurdistan , Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara , Nigerian occupation of Biafra , Sudanese occupation of Darfur , Jordanian occupation of Palestine &c. &c. Millions killed and hundreds of thousands of square miles occupied in these examples . Any of these recent enough for your taste ?? All hugely worse by 100x times of anything Israel has done .

    Not really, they’ll go the Sunni route soon enough:

    That is a prediction but at the moment occcupied by Alawites.

    Why even bother mentioning Isarel when your own co-religionists are killing in numbers 1000X higher . Clean your own house , after all it is the filthiest one on the planet .

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    • Replies: @Talha

    When I pointed out that there were zero instances of Jews targeting Christians in terror attacks
     
    You're right, I don't think they are targeting Christians. Israeli settler terrorism is usually directed at Muslim Palestinians:
    "In 2015, Yesh Din documented 135 incidents of ideologically motivated offenses committed against Palestinians, including 58 incidents of violence and 39 incidents of damage to property. Of these, 27 took place inside Palestinian homes or communities, including six cases of arson or attempted arson of Palestinian homes while families were inside."
    https://www.yesh-din.org/en/2015-in-numbers/

    Now, we haven't seen anything at the level of Baruch Goldstein for a while, but that hardly means Jews have no more extremists among them that don't carry out vigilante violence.

    Muslims commit state terror and individual terror acts at levels not seen in any other group
     
    Not sure about state terror - Iraq, Syria and Libya were bombed by Western armies, but I fully agree we've got a serious extremism problem that we have to solve - little doubt about that.

    Turkish occupation of Kurdistan
     
    Uh - what? Didn't I just say post WW2 UN? That's like saying the US should give back Navajo land.

    Jordanian occupation of Palestine
     
    LOL! That's hilarious - the heir to the Jordanian throne is half-Palestinian!

    All hugely worse by 100x times of anything Israel has done.
     
    No, not by capita or area - Israel is worse as far as land mass she is gobbling up - here are Indonesia and Morocco by comparison:
    Israeli expansion (relative to its size): 2500/8522 = 29%
    Indonesian expansion (relative to size): 130,000/735,358 = 18%
    Moroccan expansion (relative to size –[it actually only occupies 2/3 of Western Sahara, look it up]):
    68,660/274,460 = 25%

    Clean your own house
     
    Oh we have a massive amount of cleaning up to do of our own people, that's for sure. We are undoubtedly in a very sanguinary stage as compared to the rest of the world and that needs to be put in check. Far too much violence against each other and against others. So I'll agree here.

    Now as for the conflicts that you mentioned; let's cut to the chase:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people's lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should - in good faith - abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    These two questions should be no-brainers; they are asking for equivalency in looking at the matter and will let us know if you actually mean what you say from a moral, principled position or if you are simply distracting.

    Peace.
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  96. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    . Israel’s 8m people make up barely 0.11% of the world’ population, yet this tiny little region is the source of all the never ending conflicts of the world
     
    Israel / Palestinian conflict : 22,000 palestinians killed
    Nigerian occupation of Biafra - 2 million + killed
    Sudanese occupation of Darfur - 800,000 + killed
    Indonesian occupation of Papua -500,000+ killed
    Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara - 40,000 + killed
    Russian occupation of Dagestan , Checnhya ,Kaliningrad , Crimea -200,000+ killed
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus and Kurdistan - 70,000 + killed
    Chinese occupation of Tibet and Xinyang
    India Pakistan conflict
    North Korea conflict
    Basque separatist / Catalan separatist


    Yup looks like Isreal is the cause of ALL the ongoing conflicts in the world !!!!!
    Is your brain located adjacent to your prostate ???

    You forgot the proxy wars fought in one way or another for Israel’s benefit:

    The Syrian war: up to 480,000 dead
    The Iraq war: 123,000 dead

    All the ones you listed other than Israel/Palestinian — there is a big difference: the US is not involved in any of these sectarian wars. No oil to be had, so the Jewcons aren’t interested. Also none of those countries, Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Morocco, Russia, Turkey, have agents and lobbyists buried deep inside our administration to exert massive influence on our foreign policy to benefit one side against the other. Only Israel does.

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    • Replies: @anon

    The Syrian war: up to 480,000 dead
     
    Israel has already beaten Syria in 3 wars .They don't need help to do it again obviously . They destroyed Syrias nuclear program without a response for crying out loud. Syrian war was between Muslims . Assads minority Shia forces against the Sunni rebels. Most of the 480,000 killed were killed by Assads forces. So wrong there .

    The Iraq war: 123,000 dead
     
    Again Iraq was no threat to Israel , Israel having defeated Iraqi forces in a couple of wars and bombed their nuclear reactor without a response from Iraq . Iraq had no way to project its forces thru Jordanian territory to threaten Israel. Another fake news story that Israel caused the war .

    All the ones you listed other than Israel/Palestinian — there is a big difference: the US is not involved in any of these sectarian wars. No oil to be had, so the Jewcons aren’t interested. Also none of those countries, Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Morocco, Russia, Turkey, have agents and lobbyists buried deep inside our administration to exert massive influence on our foreign policy to benefit one side against the other. Only Israel does.

     

    All of those countries have lobbyists and agents buried in every administration . You think Russia , Turkey , Morocco , Indonesia , Sudan , Nigeria have zero lobbyists in Washington. LoL. I don't think you will find even the virulently anti Jewish commenters here to agree to that doozy.
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  97. Seraphim says:
    @Talha

    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric
     
    Sure, why would they commit terrorist acts when they can do it through state power? That is far more effective. Christian Palestinians in Gaza suffer under Israeli bombs just like Muslim ones. And they even shoot dead legless unarmed protesters:
    http://www.newsweek.com/man-wheelchair-killed-palestine-protesting-trumps-jerusalem-announcement-750019

    Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing
     
    I'm waiting for proof that Pakistan and other countries carry out the death penalty for proselytizing and not just jail time, exile, fine or some other punishment. You have made a claim, the burden of proof is on you.

    and are applying the penalties equally to all religions
     
    Incorrect - the Greek Orthodox Church has an exception as decided by their courts ruling on the article of the Constiution:
    "...establishes the freedom to practice any known religion and to perform rites of worship without hindrance and prohibits proselytism and all other activities directed against the dominant religion, that of the Christian Eastern Orthodox Church..."
    International Human Rights and Humanitarian Law: Treaties, Cases, and Analysis (Cambridge Univ. Press)

    I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims.
     
    That's just silly - nobody is going to go back to original borders of ten centuries ago or 3000 years ago. How exactly was the ancient Kingdom of Israel established? Oh...

    That's the whole reason why we established the UN - to put a stop to people aggressively taking over territory. Muslims aren't going to apologize for bulldozing over the Byzantine Empire. It's not like they came about through handing out flowers and chocolates. If Christians want to throw away the current international framework and try to take those lands back, well - you have the address - come and take them.

    I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.
     
    Not really, they'll go the Sunni route soon enough:
    https://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2015/09/24/e99cd043-f2dc-4cfa-b5a6-f7883abbe370/e99cd043-f2dc-4cfa-b5a6-f7883abbe370_16x9_788x442.jpg

    He married a Sunni wife from an elite family and now has three kids - how do you think they will be raised? Time and patience....

    Peace.

    Do you realize that by justifying Muslim theft of territories you nullify any indignation at the theft of ‘Muslim’ territories by Jews, Zionists, Crusaders, Christians?

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    Do you realize that by justifying Muslim theft of territories
     
    There was no theft. The Byzantines had an empire, so did the Sassanids. If you want to have an empire, learn to keep it. Hell the Nubians put up a staunch fight and got terms drafted:
    "After Muslims conquered Egypt in 641, an Arab army attacked Makuria, the Nubian capital. But Nubian archers whose aims were so accurate that Muslims called them 'eyesmiters' drove the attackers away. In 651 Christian Nubia and Muslim Egypt negotiated a peace treaty called the Baqt (pact) that was also a trade agreement. The Baqt regulated trade relations between Christian Nubia and Islamic Egypt for almost 600 years."
    https://oi.uchicago.edu/museum-exhibits/nubia/medieval-nubia

    Seriously, don't whine about it like 10 centuries later - it's not respectable.

    We are now talking about post-WW2 UN international order that all nations are signatories to. This is supposed to keep the law of the jungle in check - so everyone has to abide by those rules. Which means no more aggressive wars - period.


    you nullify any indignation at the theft of ‘Muslim’ territories by Jews, Zionists, Crusaders, Christians?
     
    If those people want to come get them, then they are hypocrites for drafting an international order that they are signatories to and violating it. If you want to return to the law of the jungle then just be open about it. You know where the Muslims are - if you want Damascus or Istanbul or Alexandria back - rip up the international framework and - yo come getcha boy!

    Peace.

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  98. RobinG says:
    @Che Guava
    Mr. Shamir,

    That is a great and very thought-provoking article, on many points.

    I could add to some. However, you have too many liars in the replies, and I am likely to having the largest molar on one side extracted tomorrow, so need to sleeping soon. I once read that having all teeth extracted will kill anyone over thirty or so, it will be a uniquely ugly experience, but maybe not until next year.

    At work end-of-year party, talking about Catholic Christmas Mass, they were saying 'if you are there alone, it will not be happy'. None a Catholic, but I am thinking they are correct.

    So, I will just say, merry Christmas to you, I may find an old-calendar Orthodox service on my brief escape from Tokyo, maybe going to a Catholic service next weekend.

    Mr. Guava, you are having one tooth extracted, not all, right? And by largest molar, do you mean the one farthest back in your mouth? I personally know several people who have lost that tooth, and they are unanimous in saying that they don’t miss it. [[No morbid thoughts, lol.]]

    Most dentists concur this tooth is no big deal. Of course, all things aren’t equal and everybody has different variables. Good luck.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    No, you are confusing the ones at the back (wisdom teeth in English) with the molars, I was already to have all four of the former extracted by a military dentist, years ago, in my brief military (2 yr.) career. The dentist even was putting his knee on my chest, for leverage, on at least one.
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  99. Talha says:
    @anonymous
    What about the tally for murders? How many killed by Mahoma, how many by Christ? Do you perceive a difference there? Would that be an essential distinction for their followers? Normative, so to speak?

    What about the tally for murders?

    Depends on the conflict; military deaths in war aren’t murders. Massacres of women and children certainly are.

    Do you perceive a difference there?

    Depends, the Son of Mary (pbuh) left after his Makkah stage. The Prophet (pbuh) also ordered his flock to be completely non-violent at that stage – so the record is the same if you compare apples for apples.

    The Son of Mary (pbuh) will return for his Madinah stage – and the nations will be forced to bend the knee. There will be blood and steel and fire, read Revelation and other chapters talking about his return. Our sources are in agreement, it will not be pleasant for those who oppose him.

    Would that be an essential distinction for their followers?

    Yeah – you should read about what happened in the early stages before Christianity went imperial; their priests, libraries, churches were destroyed. Muslims don’t play that game. You’d really like to shame us into rolling over and playing dead and abandoning our claim to al-Quds and wash our hands of our brothers in Palestine kind of like so many Christians have. Sorry, it’s not going to be that easy.

    And as far as historical record; Christian history is hardly less bloody than the Muslim one and in fact has more blood on its hands:

    http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#20worst

    See, the thing is people want to look at the current stage of history and draw all their conclusions. That is silly – anyone with an inkling of European history knows how bloody Christians can be. I mean, look at the border between France and Germany; see how it’s quiet now. That’s not normal – that’s a historical anomaly.

    If you were bringing up your arguments in the 1940′s the Muslim world would be laughing at you.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @ Revelation and other chapters talking about his return... Our sources are in agreement

    Don't delude yourself. Revelation talks about the "devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
    Jesus of the Revelation is not the Isa of your hadiths. But there is no doubt who the 'false prophet' is.
    , @anonymous
    I did not confuse my terms, but you did. Not Christians vs Muslims, but Christ vs. Muhamad. Again:

    1) How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit? And Christ? What about raids? What about 9 year old wives? Torturing prisoners?

    2) And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?


    Peace away, but let the answers be short and to the point.

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  100. Talha says:
    @Seraphim
    Do you realize that by justifying Muslim theft of territories you nullify any indignation at the theft of 'Muslim' territories by Jews, Zionists, Crusaders, Christians?

    Hey Seraphim,

    Do you realize that by justifying Muslim theft of territories

    There was no theft. The Byzantines had an empire, so did the Sassanids. If you want to have an empire, learn to keep it. Hell the Nubians put up a staunch fight and got terms drafted:
    “After Muslims conquered Egypt in 641, an Arab army attacked Makuria, the Nubian capital. But Nubian archers whose aims were so accurate that Muslims called them ‘eyesmiters’ drove the attackers away. In 651 Christian Nubia and Muslim Egypt negotiated a peace treaty called the Baqt (pact) that was also a trade agreement. The Baqt regulated trade relations between Christian Nubia and Islamic Egypt for almost 600 years.”

    https://oi.uchicago.edu/museum-exhibits/nubia/medieval-nubia

    Seriously, don’t whine about it like 10 centuries later – it’s not respectable.

    We are now talking about post-WW2 UN international order that all nations are signatories to. This is supposed to keep the law of the jungle in check – so everyone has to abide by those rules. Which means no more aggressive wars – period.

    you nullify any indignation at the theft of ‘Muslim’ territories by Jews, Zionists, Crusaders, Christians?

    If those people want to come get them, then they are hypocrites for drafting an international order that they are signatories to and violating it. If you want to return to the law of the jungle then just be open about it. You know where the Muslims are – if you want Damascus or Istanbul or Alexandria back – rip up the international framework and – yo come getcha boy!

    Peace.

    Read More
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  101. Talha says:
    @Seraphim
    From where you are standing it looks like there's 'not much difference', implying that there is a (false) equivalence between Islam and Christianity. But you are standing in the wrong place and your perspective is skewed.
    There is no equivalence. Christianity's perspective is true, because it was revealed by the Holy Spirit of God through the incarnate Son. Islam was 'revealed' by a jinn to a mere mortal.
    'Jibril' who told Mary the daughter of Imran and sister of Moses : "5 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah", was NOT the Archangel Gabriel who told The Blessed Virgin Mary: "“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    Can you see any equivalence here? Necessarily one of the affirmations is false. There is no doubt which one is. The account of the Gospels is the true one, however much the Islamic commentators try to 'demonstrate' that the Gospel as they stand are 'corrupt'.
    BTW, the Christians in Islamic purview are the ones using those 'corrupt' texts of which they are enjoined to 'desist'. They are 'tolerated' only if they pay protection money to the 'Ummah' mafia. Jews too.

    Hey Seraphim,

    Islam was ‘revealed’ by a jinn to a mere mortal.

    LOL! Man you are awesome! I think you really ought to debate some Muslims and post it on youtube or something!

    Necessarily one of the affirmations is false. There is no doubt which one is. The account of the Gospels is the true one…

    Yeah – that’s the point. Thanks for your opinion for why you are a Christian. Not like I was expecting you to say the Qur’an was true or something – that would have been weird.

    So yeah – you agree; because I reject Christianity – I’m going to burn in a lake of fire. So stop virtue-signaling – as if you don’t do the same thing – you just say it’s justified because you say you’re right. Do you really think that’s convincing, like because you say so? We say, we’re right – because we’re awesome – and there is no doubt to our awesomeness – so there!

    They are ‘tolerated’ only if they pay protection money to the ‘Ummah’ mafia.

    I don’t think any Muslim country charges jizya any more. Can you find evidence of any that do? As far as the past – yeah, pay your taxes or sign up to help defend the borders like the Jarajimah if you are an able-bodied man:
    “Early Muslim rulers have at times entered dhimmah agreements which eliminated the jizyah altogether—as in the agreement entered during the time of the second caliph `Umar with the Turkish tribe of Jarajimah which welcomed the Muslim forces and declared its dislike of the Romans, but stipulated that its members be allowed to remain Christian; this was agreed…The tribe also agreed to help the Muslims in the event of any military engagement with the Romans. The Muslim party agreed in return to protect the tribe and also relieved its members from payment of jizyah.”

    http://arts.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/2297733/ISIS_Origins,-Ideology,-and-Responses-by-Mainstream-Muslim-Scholars.pdf

    Women, children and elderly get a free ride, but men shouldn’t be pansies and expect to have their borders defended for free.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    You are for a Muslim a sane commentator. But I advise you not to whitewash the long, bloody history of Islamic conquest and terror. It will not wash.
    , @Seraphim
    I watched innumerable Muslim-Christian 'debates' and in all cases Muslims made fools of themselves by 'countering' Christians objections with the same sophistic tricks of avoiding to answer the direct questions, avoiding to address the subject in discussion, straw-man arguments, refuting a universal by citing a particular example, whataboutism, ad hominem arguments, ironizing (or downright insulting) the interlocutor, begging the question, repeating to saturation Islamic slogans (when they don't end up with the 'supreme argument' - "you insult the 'prophet', 'you blaspheme Islam'", which may incur the death penalty), as you do.
    You may fancy yourself as a great 'debater' (you are as 'awesome' as I am, aren't you?) but let me tell you that you are not. It would be hard when you embrace falsehood as truth. The Christ said: "I am the Truth, the Way and the Life". Rejecting Him is to reject Life. But 'you make the bed you lie in'. It's up to you.
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  102. Ivan says:
    @Seraphim
    Of course that all the places associated with the Christ are holy to Christians, but only those places. Not the Temple which was to be destroyed and replaced with the 'temple of His body'. Neither Jerusalem. The 'temple' is in any place where the 'body and blood' of Christ is consumed.

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".

    Indeed the reconstruction of the temple, which is the ultimate goal of all Zionists, is conceived as the ultimate victory against Christianity. Naturally, Jews forget the stark warning given to them when they tried to rebuild the temple with the help of the Zionist Roman Emperor Julian!

    Even less can Christians see any holiness in the the 'third mosque' (the Dome of the Rock, which Muslims believe was built on the same spot as the temple of 'Sulayman') which is an anti-Christian proclamation, explicitly condemning Christian beliefs and threatening the 'disbelievers' with the fire of hell!
    The Dome's founding inscriptions read:
    (Interior):
    "In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignity and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the servant of God and His Messenger.
    Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. The blessing of God be on him and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - CEASE (it is) better for you! - God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is sufficient as Defender. The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant unto God, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him. Oh God, bless Your Messenger and Your servant Jesus son of Mary. Peace be on him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary, (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty of) God that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. God (Himself) is witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise. Lo! religion with God (is) Islam. Those who (formerly) received the Book differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of God (will find that) Lo! God is swift at reckoning!

    (Exterior):
    In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no
    associate. Say: He is God, the One! God, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God. Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. Praise be to God, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him and the angels and His prophets, and peace be on him, and may God have mercy. In the name of God, the Merciful
    the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignty and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth. And He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. May He accept his intercession on the Day of Judgment on behalf of his people. In the name of God, the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Muḥammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. The dome was built by servant of God ʿAbd Allah the Imam al-Ma'mun, Commander] of the Faithful, in the year two and seventy. May God accept from him and be content with him. Amen, Lord of the worlds, praise be to God".

    Christians are programmatically excluded from the Judaic and Muslim 'holiness' of Jerusalem. They do not worship the same God as the Jews and Muslims.
    So, the solution for the Christian Holy Places is to maintain the 'status quo' (with enforced guarantees) which worked so far, as places for pilgrimage.

    Indeed, while I can sympathise with Jews and their obsession with the Temple and Jerusalem – next year in Jerusalem – and all that, the Muslim claim on the city, as holy to them is another in the line of Muslims appropriating the holy sites of other religions in order to show their utter contempt for the superseded religions, here Judaism. What is the basis for the claim that Jerusalem is holy to them? An utterly ridiculous fable that Mo ascended to heaven on his holy horse, Burraq from ‘the furthest mosque’. And we should note that when the Palestinians are talking Arabic, its al-Quds or Baitulmakdis when referring to Jerusalem, they will have none of the ecumenical when talking about it. Mr Shamir may well ask why even Christian Palestinians refer to Jerusalem as al-Quds. Jerusalem may well be a whore on par with Babylon, but it is preemptive dhimmitude to talk in the language of those who have oppressed Christians as much as the Muslims have.

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  103. @joe webb
    Jared Taylor is the best.

    Richard Spencer has apparently been abandoned by his crew, is drinking Bourbon by the glass, and can look back on his Good for the Jews behaviors as well as the jewyorktimes having made him the poster-boy of White Nationalism, and wonder if he peaked too soon.

    Taylor is circumspect as anyone with a large audience ought to be. Politics is the game, not juvenile pranks and knocking off caps of the Bourgeois boobs, whoever they might be. There is a decadence amongst the Spencer types...spewing their Nietzsche and national socialist toy SS isms around like Spencer said, "its 1933."

    What an idiot.

    The reason the jews & Co go after Taylor is that he is the most dangerous to them. Moderate, elegant, good looking, and reasonable.

    Joe Webb

    Taylor makes good sense, but he lacks vision.

    Spencer has vision even if I don’t agree with it.

    Taylor is a perfect gentleman, but gentlemen don’t make history in the end, esp if they don’t have power. Also, the game of power has little use for facts and reason. Power will mold facts and reason to serve any Vision.

    Like it or not, the globalist elites do have a powerful vision of uniting the world with PC and Pop Culture and US military might and Wall Street finance. Jewish Money, Jungle Boogie, and Justice Junkies. And masses of sheeple addicted to celeb culture.
    Shallow and crass perhaps but powerful and intoxicating because it manipulates the vanity of self-righteousness and pleasure of vice and self-indulgence, all wrapped up in homomania. Power of media amplifies these drives and manias.

    Against such power, Taylor’s arguments may be sound and factual, but they are ineffective. It’s like facts and data sound ‘boring’ and ‘little’ when spoken before two giant speakers blasting music that energize the masses with chants, mantras, and the beat.
    Rappers talk crap but why do they have such power? They are thunderous. They don’t argue. They command and demand respect. And before we are rational beings, we are emotional and sensual beings, and expression trumps exegesis. Consider the success of STAR WARS. Silly stuff, but people all over pay bucks to see the Force.

    Spencer is not the ‘one’, but he understands that a vision has to be countered by another powerful vision. And this takes boldness, leaps of imagination, and etc.
    He has smart people around him, but they are not quite first-rate.

    But he is onto something, and he is committed.

    So, even if he is not the One, he has set forth a template that this thing has to be more than facts, data, logic, good sense. It has to about a vision so powerful and intoxicating that white patriots and warriors are willing to kill for it, die for it.

    Vanguard offers the Vision. Ultimately, Spencer is too limited in imagination and scope to see it all the way. But he paved some of the way for someone else.

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  104. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    You forgot the proxy wars fought in one way or another for Israel's benefit:

    The Syrian war: up to 480,000 dead
    The Iraq war: 123,000 dead

    All the ones you listed other than Israel/Palestinian -- there is a big difference: the US is not involved in any of these sectarian wars. No oil to be had, so the Jewcons aren't interested. Also none of those countries, Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Morocco, Russia, Turkey, have agents and lobbyists buried deep inside our administration to exert massive influence on our foreign policy to benefit one side against the other. Only Israel does.

    The Syrian war: up to 480,000 dead

    Israel has already beaten Syria in 3 wars .They don’t need help to do it again obviously . They destroyed Syrias nuclear program without a response for crying out loud. Syrian war was between Muslims . Assads minority Shia forces against the Sunni rebels. Most of the 480,000 killed were killed by Assads forces. So wrong there .

    The Iraq war: 123,000 dead

    Again Iraq was no threat to Israel , Israel having defeated Iraqi forces in a couple of wars and bombed their nuclear reactor without a response from Iraq . Iraq had no way to project its forces thru Jordanian territory to threaten Israel. Another fake news story that Israel caused the war .

    All the ones you listed other than Israel/Palestinian — there is a big difference: the US is not involved in any of these sectarian wars. No oil to be had, so the Jewcons aren’t interested. Also none of those countries, Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Morocco, Russia, Turkey, have agents and lobbyists buried deep inside our administration to exert massive influence on our foreign policy to benefit one side against the other. Only Israel does.

    All of those countries have lobbyists and agents buried in every administration . You think Russia , Turkey , Morocco , Indonesia , Sudan , Nigeria have zero lobbyists in Washington. LoL. I don’t think you will find even the virulently anti Jewish commenters here to agree to that doozy.

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    • Replies: @Ivan
    Rewriting the recent past my friend? Who went full-throated calling for Assad's blood over the alleged chemical attack in 2013? The Israelis of course. Who kept the news of the bloodthirstiness of those opposed to Assad from full view? The neo-Cohens and their fellow travellers in the press. The Israelis should learn to settle for half-loaf when there is still time. A deal could have been worked out with Assad who being an Alawite, would have been amenable. But the Jews in Israel have become infected with hubris, always fatal to the sufferer and have driven Assad firmly into the mullahs' arms. You know, I find it somewhat tragic that for a people who were driven from pillar to post, the Jews in Israel had no sympathy for the plight of the Alawites and Christians under the head choppers. And by the way the figure of 480,000 attributed to Assad is a clear exaggeration, since much of the bloodletting was done by the head choppers and further embellished to elicit sympathy from the West during that 'refugee crisis' two years ago.
    , @Kiza
    You take the prize for the biggest amount of utter bull written in the comments to this article. But there has to always be one, and usually it is one of the anon or anonymous and usually a Zionist.
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  105. Seraphim says:
    @Talha

    What about the tally for murders?
     
    Depends on the conflict; military deaths in war aren't murders. Massacres of women and children certainly are.

    Do you perceive a difference there?
     
    Depends, the Son of Mary (pbuh) left after his Makkah stage. The Prophet (pbuh) also ordered his flock to be completely non-violent at that stage - so the record is the same if you compare apples for apples.

    The Son of Mary (pbuh) will return for his Madinah stage - and the nations will be forced to bend the knee. There will be blood and steel and fire, read Revelation and other chapters talking about his return. Our sources are in agreement, it will not be pleasant for those who oppose him.

    Would that be an essential distinction for their followers?
     
    Yeah - you should read about what happened in the early stages before Christianity went imperial; their priests, libraries, churches were destroyed. Muslims don't play that game. You'd really like to shame us into rolling over and playing dead and abandoning our claim to al-Quds and wash our hands of our brothers in Palestine kind of like so many Christians have. Sorry, it's not going to be that easy.

    And as far as historical record; Christian history is hardly less bloody than the Muslim one and in fact has more blood on its hands:
    http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#20worst

    See, the thing is people want to look at the current stage of history and draw all their conclusions. That is silly - anyone with an inkling of European history knows how bloody Christians can be. I mean, look at the border between France and Germany; see how it's quiet now. That's not normal - that's a historical anomaly.

    If you were bringing up your arguments in the 1940's the Muslim world would be laughing at you.

    Peace.

    @ Revelation and other chapters talking about his return… Our sources are in agreement

    Don’t delude yourself. Revelation talks about the “devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever”.
    Jesus of the Revelation is not the Isa of your hadiths. But there is no doubt who the ‘false prophet’ is.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks for more opinion, Seraphim!

    Peace.
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  106. Ivan says:
    @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    Islam was ‘revealed’ by a jinn to a mere mortal.
     
    LOL! Man you are awesome! I think you really ought to debate some Muslims and post it on youtube or something!

    Necessarily one of the affirmations is false. There is no doubt which one is. The account of the Gospels is the true one...
     
    Yeah - that's the point. Thanks for your opinion for why you are a Christian. Not like I was expecting you to say the Qur'an was true or something - that would have been weird.

    So yeah - you agree; because I reject Christianity - I'm going to burn in a lake of fire. So stop virtue-signaling - as if you don't do the same thing - you just say it's justified because you say you're right. Do you really think that's convincing, like because you say so? We say, we're right - because we're awesome - and there is no doubt to our awesomeness - so there!

    They are ‘tolerated’ only if they pay protection money to the ‘Ummah’ mafia.
     
    I don't think any Muslim country charges jizya any more. Can you find evidence of any that do? As far as the past - yeah, pay your taxes or sign up to help defend the borders like the Jarajimah if you are an able-bodied man:
    “Early Muslim rulers have at times entered dhimmah agreements which eliminated the jizyah altogether—as in the agreement entered during the time of the second caliph `Umar with the Turkish tribe of Jarajimah which welcomed the Muslim forces and declared its dislike of the Romans, but stipulated that its members be allowed to remain Christian; this was agreed…The tribe also agreed to help the Muslims in the event of any military engagement with the Romans. The Muslim party agreed in return to protect the tribe and also relieved its members from payment of jizyah.”
    http://arts.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/2297733/ISIS_Origins,-Ideology,-and-Responses-by-Mainstream-Muslim-Scholars.pdf

    Women, children and elderly get a free ride, but men shouldn't be pansies and expect to have their borders defended for free.

    Peace.

    You are for a Muslim a sane commentator. But I advise you not to whitewash the long, bloody history of Islamic conquest and terror. It will not wash.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks Ivan,

    But I advise you not to whitewash the long, bloody history of Islamic conquest and terror.
     
    No whitewashing. Because the conquest was so long and varied, one has to look at the details. Some conquests were extremely brutal and bloody and some were as clean as conquests can get. Any of the rulers and armies that violated sacred law in prosecuting wars will stand up for judgement before God for their crimes. I will certainly not defend their actions.

    Our exemplars are the Rashidun in administration and on the field of battle - from their conduct do we derive rules of conduct; everyone else is judged by their standard. Most Muslim rulers historically have fallen short, way short.

    My point has been that it is hardly the case that Muslims have been the only ones on Earth with a record of bloody conquest, a cursory look at human history will prove that out (we just happened to be more successful than others for a long time, but - as I've pointed out - we have had our butts routinely handed to us on the battlefield since around the 17th century).

    The other problem I have is that people talk about the pre-modern world as if it was some kumbayyah playground where everyone followed nice rules and were the equivalent of Sweden in foreign policy. I have news for them, even Sweden can't live up to that historically and had an empire. Trying to apply our norms and assumptions to the past is ahistoric and juvenile. Anybody who does this has not read books by serious military historians.

    Now that was all before our current international norms that came into play in the aftermath of WW2. All nations are signatories to these rules and should abide by them as per rules of non-aggression.

    Peace.

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  107. MEexpert says:
    @Talha
    Hey Che,

    sharing nation of birth with those ‘nutcases’
     
    Yeah sorry, as it's been pointed out, we are a bunch of inbred retards that eat far too many spices for our own good. Systemic issues are an obvious result. Have mercy upon us, we're too stupid to know better.

    If Anon is the same person that has been communicating with me, then I believe they are a Sri Lankan Christian male around 30 years of age. I have no clue if that has been consistent. I've asked whoever Anon is to pick a name (I suggested "Nom De Plume"), maybe you can get through to them.

    you are largely sharing the opinions of the ‘nutcases’ at heart
     
    Bakwas yaar!

    http://wildhunt.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/you-mad-bro-.jpg

    Peace.

    I’ve asked whoever Anon is to pick a name (I suggested “Nom De Plume”), maybe you can get through to them.

    It is to write differing views without being held responsible for them. You don’t know which “anon/Anon” will show up. I don’t like to communicate with Schizophrenics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Your statements are laughable . Yesterday you said Israel has the 2nd most powerful army in the world !!!!

    Some MEexpert you are , chump.
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  108. Hibernian says:
    @Thirdeye
    Danzig, 1919-1939

    How did that work out? I think the arrangement was one of the key German grievances exploited by the Nazis.

    Read More
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  109. Talha says:
    @Seraphim
    @ Revelation and other chapters talking about his return... Our sources are in agreement

    Don't delude yourself. Revelation talks about the "devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
    Jesus of the Revelation is not the Isa of your hadiths. But there is no doubt who the 'false prophet' is.

    Thanks for more opinion, Seraphim!

    Peace.

    Read More
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  110. Hibernian says:
    @Talha
    Hey Bliss,

    You have a lot of nerve to support the view that the grave of a human is more sacred and holy than the “House of Allah”.
     
    Not really, this is pretty much supported by men like Qadi Iyad (ra), Mulla Ali Qari (ra), Imam as-Subki (ra) and a host of other top notch scholars in our history. That's why there is a difference of opinion on it - one can choose whatever opinion appeals to them on the matter.

    This is why salafis call your ilk grave worshipping heretics

     

    That's true because they don't understand the difference between considering something holy and sacred vs actually worshiping it.

    whorehouse in the sky
     
    Heard about the mile-high club, but is that like an international flight where the stewardesses are literally whores who service clients to bypass local prohibitions? Which airline does this?

    The suicide bomber or the grave worshippers?
     
    Neither, I don't think the airlines allow passengers that aren't in one piece - they don't want a single passenger taking up multiple seats. They can be cut throat about that:
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/10/travel/passenger-removed-united-flight-trnd/index.html

    Peace.

    “That’s true because they don’t understand the difference between considering something holy and sacred vs actually worshiping it.”

    As a Catholic I can relate to that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    A lot of parallels exist between Salafi-Wahhabi extremists and Protestant extremist strains.

    Peace.
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  111. Ivan says:
    @anon

    The Syrian war: up to 480,000 dead
     
    Israel has already beaten Syria in 3 wars .They don't need help to do it again obviously . They destroyed Syrias nuclear program without a response for crying out loud. Syrian war was between Muslims . Assads minority Shia forces against the Sunni rebels. Most of the 480,000 killed were killed by Assads forces. So wrong there .

    The Iraq war: 123,000 dead
     
    Again Iraq was no threat to Israel , Israel having defeated Iraqi forces in a couple of wars and bombed their nuclear reactor without a response from Iraq . Iraq had no way to project its forces thru Jordanian territory to threaten Israel. Another fake news story that Israel caused the war .

    All the ones you listed other than Israel/Palestinian — there is a big difference: the US is not involved in any of these sectarian wars. No oil to be had, so the Jewcons aren’t interested. Also none of those countries, Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Morocco, Russia, Turkey, have agents and lobbyists buried deep inside our administration to exert massive influence on our foreign policy to benefit one side against the other. Only Israel does.

     

    All of those countries have lobbyists and agents buried in every administration . You think Russia , Turkey , Morocco , Indonesia , Sudan , Nigeria have zero lobbyists in Washington. LoL. I don't think you will find even the virulently anti Jewish commenters here to agree to that doozy.

    Rewriting the recent past my friend? Who went full-throated calling for Assad’s blood over the alleged chemical attack in 2013? The Israelis of course. Who kept the news of the bloodthirstiness of those opposed to Assad from full view? The neo-Cohens and their fellow travellers in the press. The Israelis should learn to settle for half-loaf when there is still time. A deal could have been worked out with Assad who being an Alawite, would have been amenable. But the Jews in Israel have become infected with hubris, always fatal to the sufferer and have driven Assad firmly into the mullahs’ arms. You know, I find it somewhat tragic that for a people who were driven from pillar to post, the Jews in Israel had no sympathy for the plight of the Alawites and Christians under the head choppers. And by the way the figure of 480,000 attributed to Assad is a clear exaggeration, since much of the bloodletting was done by the head choppers and further embellished to elicit sympathy from the West during that ‘refugee crisis’ two years ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Hi Ivan .
    I could go point by point but the facts can be stated succinctly : The war was Sunni Muslims vs Shia Muslims. If Israel agitated for one outcome or another , or made a statement about chemicals being used it does not change the fact that the war was fought and the killing was done by Muslims ,not Israel. If Muslims get worked up over Israeli proclimations and turn to war because of it , that only shows their lack of self control and foresight, but we both know that isn't the real reason for the war anyway .

    Christians are massacred and treated poorly throughout the Muslim world from Morocco to Indonesia , by way of Pakistan and all points inbetween . What Israel does or doesnt do will have zero effect on Muslim head choppers killing Christians. Just look to Indonesia and their occupation and masscre of Christian Papua to the tune of 500,000 + killed. Lastly the 480,000 figure in Syria was given by a previous commenter that I was responding to . Good day .
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  112. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @MEexpert

    I’ve asked whoever Anon is to pick a name (I suggested “Nom De Plume”), maybe you can get through to them.
     
    It is to write differing views without being held responsible for them. You don't know which "anon/Anon" will show up. I don't like to communicate with Schizophrenics.

    Your statements are laughable . Yesterday you said Israel has the 2nd most powerful army in the world !!!!

    Some MEexpert you are , chump.

    Read More
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  113. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Ivan
    Rewriting the recent past my friend? Who went full-throated calling for Assad's blood over the alleged chemical attack in 2013? The Israelis of course. Who kept the news of the bloodthirstiness of those opposed to Assad from full view? The neo-Cohens and their fellow travellers in the press. The Israelis should learn to settle for half-loaf when there is still time. A deal could have been worked out with Assad who being an Alawite, would have been amenable. But the Jews in Israel have become infected with hubris, always fatal to the sufferer and have driven Assad firmly into the mullahs' arms. You know, I find it somewhat tragic that for a people who were driven from pillar to post, the Jews in Israel had no sympathy for the plight of the Alawites and Christians under the head choppers. And by the way the figure of 480,000 attributed to Assad is a clear exaggeration, since much of the bloodletting was done by the head choppers and further embellished to elicit sympathy from the West during that 'refugee crisis' two years ago.

    Hi Ivan .
    I could go point by point but the facts can be stated succinctly : The war was Sunni Muslims vs Shia Muslims. If Israel agitated for one outcome or another , or made a statement about chemicals being used it does not change the fact that the war was fought and the killing was done by Muslims ,not Israel. If Muslims get worked up over Israeli proclimations and turn to war because of it , that only shows their lack of self control and foresight, but we both know that isn’t the real reason for the war anyway .

    Christians are massacred and treated poorly throughout the Muslim world from Morocco to Indonesia , by way of Pakistan and all points inbetween . What Israel does or doesnt do will have zero effect on Muslim head choppers killing Christians. Just look to Indonesia and their occupation and masscre of Christian Papua to the tune of 500,000 + killed. Lastly the 480,000 figure in Syria was given by a previous commenter that I was responding to . Good day .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    Well there is no doubt that you are right about the bloodthirstiness of all too many Muslims. Good day sir.
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  114. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    What about the tally for murders?
     
    Depends on the conflict; military deaths in war aren't murders. Massacres of women and children certainly are.

    Do you perceive a difference there?
     
    Depends, the Son of Mary (pbuh) left after his Makkah stage. The Prophet (pbuh) also ordered his flock to be completely non-violent at that stage - so the record is the same if you compare apples for apples.

    The Son of Mary (pbuh) will return for his Madinah stage - and the nations will be forced to bend the knee. There will be blood and steel and fire, read Revelation and other chapters talking about his return. Our sources are in agreement, it will not be pleasant for those who oppose him.

    Would that be an essential distinction for their followers?
     
    Yeah - you should read about what happened in the early stages before Christianity went imperial; their priests, libraries, churches were destroyed. Muslims don't play that game. You'd really like to shame us into rolling over and playing dead and abandoning our claim to al-Quds and wash our hands of our brothers in Palestine kind of like so many Christians have. Sorry, it's not going to be that easy.

    And as far as historical record; Christian history is hardly less bloody than the Muslim one and in fact has more blood on its hands:
    http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#20worst

    See, the thing is people want to look at the current stage of history and draw all their conclusions. That is silly - anyone with an inkling of European history knows how bloody Christians can be. I mean, look at the border between France and Germany; see how it's quiet now. That's not normal - that's a historical anomaly.

    If you were bringing up your arguments in the 1940's the Muslim world would be laughing at you.

    Peace.

    I did not confuse my terms, but you did. Not Christians vs Muslims, but Christ vs. Muhamad. Again:

    1) How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit? And Christ? What about raids? What about 9 year old wives? Torturing prisoners?

    2) And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?

    Peace away, but let the answers be short and to the point.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I did not confuse my terms, but you did. Not Christians vs Muslims, but Christ vs. Muhamad. Again:
    1) How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit? And Christ? What about raids? What about 9 year old wives? Torturing prisoners?
    2) And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?
     
    You are quite a hasbara troll. Stop lying about Muhammad. Muhammad did NOT marry aisha when she was 9 YEARS OLD , he married Aisha when she was 6 YEARS OLD !!!!!!! . He consumated the marriage when she was 9 years old LOL . He was a gentleman ,a ring a ding ding baby . Get your facts straight !!!!!!!!!!

    If you lived like Muhammad you would be in jail for gross sexual violations of minors , well maybe not in the UK ..............

    , @Talha

    Christ vs. Muhamad
     
    No - I didn't confuse a thing.

    How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit?
     
    Zero.

    If you are talking how many people died in the wars to unite Arabia - estimates have been around 2000 - 3000 or so.

    And Christ?
     
    Did he command an army? Was he in charge of fighting the enemies of his people?

    What about raids?
     
    Same questions as above.

    What about 9 year old wives?
     
    Did Christ even marry? But let's say he did - do you really think that he would have married some 30 year-old? Have you even read about marriage norms among Jews in first century Palestine:
    "To understand these statements, we must remember that in the InterTestamental and early rabbinic age, pre-puberty marriage was generally permitted. In fact rabbis seriously debated whether bloodstains found after the wedding night in nuptial bed of a minor, i.e. a ‘virgin in respect of menstruation’, marked her first period or the consummation of the marriage."
    The Changing Face of Jesus

    Here is the guy that wrote that book:
    "Geza Vermes, who has died aged 88, was one of the world's leading authorities on the origins of Christianity."
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/may/14/geza-vermes

    "In the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, marriage is considered the natural state for men and women, and although there are certainly instances where Jewish men (and rarely, Jewish women) are not married, this is the exception rather than norm. Most women marry quite young, usually soon after the onset of menstruation, which of course, heralds fertility. Men typically marry later (in their twenties, or even thirties) and this most men are older than their wives."
    What the Bible Really Tells Us: The Essential Guide to Biblical Literacy

    The Son of Mary (pbuh) knew men were marrying off their daughters this young to older men and consummation was usually happening right at puberty, why didn't he condemn it? The Catholics certainly didn't see a problem with it for centuries:
    "Betrothals [sponsalia] require seven full years in the contracting parties. The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females, under penalty of nullity (unless natural puberty supplies the want of years)."
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm

    Puberty has always been the pre-modern marker for marriage, and it very naturally occurs in some nine year olds (especially in a time when the average lifespan was less than 35 years):
    "Your first menstrual period is called menarche (say "MEN-ar-kee"). It usually starts sometime between ages 11 and 14. But it can happen as early as age 9 or as late as 15."
    https://www.webmd.com/children/tc/menarche-topic-overview#1

    "Precocious puberty (PP) is defined as the development of pubertal changes, at an age younger than the accepted lower limits for age of onset of puberty, namely, before age 8 years in girls and 9 years in boys. "
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3005651/

    Torturing prisoners?
     
    Nonsense - this along with a bunch of other claims has no solid evidence. Bring me something that is sourced in something we actually derive rulings from. The Seerah and Maghazi literature doesn't reach that level - some of it is corroborated by other sources, other stuff is basically apocrypha; like stories of young Jesus (pbuh) causing the death of children and blinding their parents by cursing them:
    http://gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

    I don't expect Christians to answer questions about these things nor do I expect to answer questions about something I have zero obligation to consider even occurred. You can believe it as you like.

    And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?
     
    I'm totally fine if Christians want to disband their navies, armies, etc. and divorce their wives and live celibate lives. Also, if cornered in a fight, make sure to turn the other cheek - that'll teach 'em! That'll teach 'em good!

    Peace.
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  115. Talha says:
    @Hibernian
    "That’s true because they don’t understand the difference between considering something holy and sacred vs actually worshiping it."

    As a Catholic I can relate to that.

    A lot of parallels exist between Salafi-Wahhabi extremists and Protestant extremist strains.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  116. Talha says:
    @Ivan
    You are for a Muslim a sane commentator. But I advise you not to whitewash the long, bloody history of Islamic conquest and terror. It will not wash.

    Thanks Ivan,

    But I advise you not to whitewash the long, bloody history of Islamic conquest and terror.

    No whitewashing. Because the conquest was so long and varied, one has to look at the details. Some conquests were extremely brutal and bloody and some were as clean as conquests can get. Any of the rulers and armies that violated sacred law in prosecuting wars will stand up for judgement before God for their crimes. I will certainly not defend their actions.

    Our exemplars are the Rashidun in administration and on the field of battle – from their conduct do we derive rules of conduct; everyone else is judged by their standard. Most Muslim rulers historically have fallen short, way short.

    My point has been that it is hardly the case that Muslims have been the only ones on Earth with a record of bloody conquest, a cursory look at human history will prove that out (we just happened to be more successful than others for a long time, but – as I’ve pointed out – we have had our butts routinely handed to us on the battlefield since around the 17th century).

    The other problem I have is that people talk about the pre-modern world as if it was some kumbayyah playground where everyone followed nice rules and were the equivalent of Sweden in foreign policy. I have news for them, even Sweden can’t live up to that historically and had an empire. Trying to apply our norms and assumptions to the past is ahistoric and juvenile. Anybody who does this has not read books by serious military historians.

    Now that was all before our current international norms that came into play in the aftermath of WW2. All nations are signatories to these rules and should abide by them as per rules of non-aggression.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    Talha, I have been commenting on unz since it started and I have been reading your comments for a while without engaging in a debate. As a Christian, I did agree with you very often, but your comments are becoming too fervent and too partisan. For example, other commenters lay it out for you that things are not the way you say, but you poo-pah and continue on with your pro-Sunni tirades.

    Reduce the fervor a notch and drop completely your provocative and corny sign-off "Peace" and you will become a decent and pleasant commenter to read. BTW, I am old enough to understand that those who talk too much of peace are the ones who wage war to get peace. Otherwise, you will be just another a-hole on a mission that the comments sections to this zine is full of, which made me become a casual visitor. There are other places where the fervor is lower and the intellectual debate is higher.
    , @Ivan
    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody. The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols, and in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness and slavery. And it is difficult for me who is familiar with the conditions of non-Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan to give much credence to protestations of goodwill (though not from you of course). If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.
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  117. Wally says: • Website
    @anon
    57 Islamic states . 12 of them classify converting from Islam to Christianity as a crime punishable by the death penalty. Converting from Christianity to Islam is not a crime. Thoughts , caveats ?

    Israel does not allow others to migrate to Israel, it’s JEWS ONLY.

    Israel to shut migrant centre and deport Africans

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/israel-to-shut-migrant-centre-and-deport-africans/

    Forget the ‘slippery slope’ — Israel already is an apartheid state

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/israel-slippery-slope-1.4368018

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Israel does not allow others to migrate to Israel, it’s JEWS ONLY.
     
    Wrong many non jews have immigrated to Israel .

    Israel to shut migrant centre and deport Africans
     
    Correct they did what you advocate all western nations do when faced with illigal immagrants.

    Forget the ‘slippery slope’ — Israel already is an apartheid state
     
    No but all muslim countries are apartheid states with non muslims , homosexuals and women living as second class citizens with less or essentialy zero rights . In fact in many muslim nations Mauritania ,Sudan , Somalia , Libya they still have chattel slavery and blacks are sold on an open slave market . Your buddies are nice guys!!!!!!!!
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  118. @The Alarmist

    "That is why so many American politicians commit suicide while being accused of some non-actionable non-offence, like lusting after a 17 year old girl some years ago."
     
    So many? Not enough, my friend. Not enough.

    "The Europeans disagree with the Americans and the Jews, and reserve their judgment."
     
    A sign that the Europeans still hate jews enough to not even suffer any guilt for making Europe so intolerable for European jews that a narrow strip of land surrounded by multitudes of hostiles looks appealing.

    "The whole of Jerusalem had been declared a corpus separatum, a separate body under international jurisdiction, by the same UN resolution (181 (II) 1/ of 29 November 1947) that called for creation of a Jewish and an Arab state in Palestine."
     
    Yeah, the UN, font of all that is good in the world, like blind eyes to massacres in Rwanda and Serbia, or rape of young local girls and the spread of cholera in Haiti by their troops, and other, similar good works around the world. By citing the UN, you are actually making a case pro Israeli control of Jerusalem. That resolution was a de jure attempt to stop what Haganah and the Zionists et al had de facto set in motion.

    In that case UN general assembly which helped establish Israel should withdraw its recognition!!!

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    As I said, the UN only put a veneer on what was already there. In fact, the UN proposed the original two-state solution, and the Israelis accepted it; it was the Arab states of the region that rejected it. The Palestinians never factor that into their complaints, and they've never grasped that they are not welcome in any of the surrounding Arab states, much less why, which is because they are PITA.
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  119. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    I did not confuse my terms, but you did. Not Christians vs Muslims, but Christ vs. Muhamad. Again:

    1) How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit? And Christ? What about raids? What about 9 year old wives? Torturing prisoners?

    2) And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?


    Peace away, but let the answers be short and to the point.

    I did not confuse my terms, but you did. Not Christians vs Muslims, but Christ vs. Muhamad. Again:
    1) How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit? And Christ? What about raids? What about 9 year old wives? Torturing prisoners?
    2) And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?

    You are quite a hasbara troll. Stop lying about Muhammad. Muhammad did NOT marry aisha when she was 9 YEARS OLD , he married Aisha when she was 6 YEARS OLD !!!!!!! . He consumated the marriage when she was 9 years old LOL . He was a gentleman ,a ring a ding ding baby . Get your facts straight !!!!!!!!!!

    If you lived like Muhammad you would be in jail for gross sexual violations of minors , well maybe not in the UK …………..

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    You're right. However he apparently consummated when she was 9 (he over 50 if memory serves), and as his shining example is base of law for Muslims, that is the age that counts TODAY. The Koran dropped whole from heaven and one has to submit, never interpret. So today, in Iran, 9 year olds can be married off. Before the Iranian Revolution, age of marriage was 16. In Yemen, age of marriage is... 9 years old, with 52% of girls marrying before or at 10 yrs old. Around same % for Bangladesh. In Pakistan in 2010, a 25 yr old man married a 6 MONTH. old, for there is no lower limit for girl marriage, as is the case in Saudi Arabia. They were trying to pass similar laws in Egypt, not up to date on that. In Gaza, in 2009, there were 450 child brides under 10 in a major ceremony, but they were lucky because the husbands were 25-35.

    But I am sure they'll be kindly dealt with, since Muhammad is their prophet.
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  120. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Wally
    Israel does not allow others to migrate to Israel, it's JEWS ONLY.

    Israel to shut migrant centre and deport Africans
    http://www.unz.com/isteve/israel-to-shut-migrant-centre-and-deport-africans/

    Forget the 'slippery slope' — Israel already is an apartheid state
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/israel-slippery-slope-1.4368018

    Israel does not allow others to migrate to Israel, it’s JEWS ONLY.

    Wrong many non jews have immigrated to Israel .

    Israel to shut migrant centre and deport Africans

    Correct they did what you advocate all western nations do when faced with illigal immagrants.

    Forget the ‘slippery slope’ — Israel already is an apartheid state

    No but all muslim countries are apartheid states with non muslims , homosexuals and women living as second class citizens with less or essentialy zero rights . In fact in many muslim nations Mauritania ,Sudan , Somalia , Libya they still have chattel slavery and blacks are sold on an open slave market . Your buddies are nice guys!!!!!!!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Ah the lovely Talmud .........

    Christians are allied with hell, and Christianity is worse than incest. (BT Avodah Zarah 17a)

    Going to prostitutes is the same as becoming a Christian. (BT Avodah Zarah 17a)

    Those who read the Gospels (uncanonical books) are doomed to hell. (BT Sanhedrin 90a)

    When the Messiah comes, he will destroy the Christians. (BT Sanhedrin 99a)

    Christian books, especially the New Testament, must be destroyed. (BT Shabbat 116a)

    It is not necessary to pay gentile laborers their wages (BT Sanhedrin 57a)

    Gentiles who observe a day of rest are to be executed (BT Sanhedrin 104a)

    Cheating gentiles in court is acceptable (BT Baba Kamma 113a)

    If a gentile kills a Jew, the gentile is to be killed. But if a Jew kills a gentile, the Jew is to go free (BT Sanhedrin 57a)

    "The Amidah prayer, which is recited by Orthodox Jews on Yom Kippur, contains a portion called the Birkat Haminim which calls for the immediate death and eternal punishment of Christians. Rabbi Moses Maimonides, one of the most authoritative legal codifiers in Jewish history states that it is permissible for devout Jews to kill Jewish converts to Christianity without any type of trial or official ruling. (Mamrim 3:2) The ‘Noachide Laws’, which are treated as a standard of ‘universal values’ and ‘timeless principles’, slyly sue for the execution of all Christians. One of the seven commandments in the Noachide doctrine is that all idol worshippers be put to death. While this may seem innocent enough to most, the Talmud identifies Jesus Christ as being the chief idol in human history and His followers being the specific ‘idol worshippers’ intended for destruction. In depicting a lament over great evil doers the Talmud says, “….may we produce no son or pupil who disgraces himself in public like Jesus of Nazareth.” (Berakoth 17b) Further on in the same passage the Talmud equates Jesus with Balaam (the sorcerer who attempted to lead the Israelites astray in the book of Numbers) by substituting Balaam’s name for that of Jesus in a Halachic curse upon idolaters. The passages of note are Sanhedrin 10:2 and Berakoth 17b from the BT. Once again Mr. Hoffman masterfully lays bare the rabbinic attitude towards Christ and His followers; proving again and again that rabbinic Judaism refers to Jesus as ‘sinners of Israel’ and ‘that idol’. (Michael Hoffman, Judaism Discovered, pages 921-922 & 1048-1049)"

    "Slander of Christ and His work at this level should shock any Christian, but it is par for the course within the religion of Orthodox Judaism! Of course this sentiment is not given too much exposure because it is realized that the majority of Christians who discover such things about the Jewish religion will no longer hold much faith in a ‘Judeo Christian’ tradition. The truth of the matter however, is that the Talmud and subsequent legal codifications within Judaism contain extremely negative attitudes and content towards Christ and His followers. The Talmud says that Jesus was an idolater and adulterer and even stoops to insulting His mother, Mary; accusing her of being an adulteress and saying that Jesus was an illegitimate child. BT Gittin 57a says that for His sins, Jesus eternally suffers in a pot of boiling excrement. Especially in this last citation we see just how perverted and deluded the fantasies and imaginations of the rabbis are. How sad is it that such vitriol and myth is codified as dogma within the religion of Judaism? Far from honoring the exaltedness of the Jewish religion, every sincere Christian should seek to free Judaic persons from these traditions of men and display the love of Christ toward them. Assuredly our Lord expects no less of us. Can it be supposed that He will one day find acceptable the efforts of Christians who continuously pay respect to a religion that is so contrary to His work and sacrifice? A religion that codifies and bears witness to its own horrible slander of the Lion of Judah, Jesus Christ! It is put forward by some defenders of the Talmud that although it is typically defamatory towards Jesus, its condemnation of Christ is merely a peripheral issue and of little defining value on the whole. But a more honest evaluation of the Talmud and various rabbinic dogma reveals the centrality of Jesus as a sinner to the Talmudic message."


    https://brushfireliberty.wordpress.com/2016/04/03/the-judeo-christian-tradition/
    , @geokat62

    Wrong many non jews have immigrated to Israel .
     
    Many? Why don't you tell us how many is many?

    Cause according to this top response to the question: Is Israel a Jews-only state? Can a non-Jew live and work there? posed on the Quora Forum, my sense is that the true answer is very few non Jews have immigrated to Israel:


    Oren Shamir, lived in Israel
    Answered Feb 28, 2015

    Israel gives equal rights to all citizens, regardless of religion, race, gender etc.
    Where it does discriminate in favor of Jews is in the way to become a citizen.
    Basically, if you were born here and your parents are citizens, you are a citizen too. But if you wish to immigrate here, and become a citizen, then it would be very easy if you are Jewish and very difficult if you are not. This is so because Israel was founded as "the National home for the Jewish people" and its main purpose was to be a shelter and safe haven for this much persecuted ethnic group.

    Israel's immigration laws explicitly favor Jews. They also give room for "judgement" in deciding whether non-Jews can become citizens. The authority making this judgment is the ministry of internal affairs. More precisely, it's in the hands of the minister.

    This makes the question of non-Jewish immigration a political one. Since there are no clear rules or guidelines as to who gets to get in, it depends on the specific minister currently in office, and the government he is a part of, to decide how "open" Israel is to non-Jewish immigrants at any given time.
    In most cases it's not really open, but there could be exceptions. An immigrant or refugee could ask for citizenship and hope that the minister will decide in their favor. The outcome is subject to the immigrant's personal circumstances as well as current political and even personal views of those in power.

    One notable example is when, during the Vietnam War in the 1970's a boat with Vietnamese refugees was accepted into Israel and its passengers were given citizenship by the then Prime Minister, Menahem Begin. He thought that he couldn't let these people drown or starve, like so many countries let Jewish refugees die at sea when they fled Nazi Germany.

    On the other hand, there are currently thousands of people coming into Israel from Africa, mostly from Sudan and Eritrea. The question of whether these people are work immigrants, trying to "piggyback" on Israel's thriving economy (well, relatively speaking) or refugees escaping horrible circumstances is highly debated in Israel. The current government generally tends to see them as illegal immigrants and many activists think they're refugees. My assumption here is that a different government might have been more flexible towards these people and might have given some of them citizenship based on their personal circumstances.

    The bottom line is this. Just as most other countries, Israel has immigration laws deciding who gets to become a citizen. Israel's immigration laws favor Jews. Not because we think "Jews are better" but because we think Jews have nowhere else to turn to when they're being persecuted.

    https://www.quora.com/Is-Israel-a-Jews-only-state-Can-a-non-Jew-live-and-work-there?share=1
     

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  121. Kiza says:
    @anon

    The Syrian war: up to 480,000 dead
     
    Israel has already beaten Syria in 3 wars .They don't need help to do it again obviously . They destroyed Syrias nuclear program without a response for crying out loud. Syrian war was between Muslims . Assads minority Shia forces against the Sunni rebels. Most of the 480,000 killed were killed by Assads forces. So wrong there .

    The Iraq war: 123,000 dead
     
    Again Iraq was no threat to Israel , Israel having defeated Iraqi forces in a couple of wars and bombed their nuclear reactor without a response from Iraq . Iraq had no way to project its forces thru Jordanian territory to threaten Israel. Another fake news story that Israel caused the war .

    All the ones you listed other than Israel/Palestinian — there is a big difference: the US is not involved in any of these sectarian wars. No oil to be had, so the Jewcons aren’t interested. Also none of those countries, Nigeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Morocco, Russia, Turkey, have agents and lobbyists buried deep inside our administration to exert massive influence on our foreign policy to benefit one side against the other. Only Israel does.

     

    All of those countries have lobbyists and agents buried in every administration . You think Russia , Turkey , Morocco , Indonesia , Sudan , Nigeria have zero lobbyists in Washington. LoL. I don't think you will find even the virulently anti Jewish commenters here to agree to that doozy.

    You take the prize for the biggest amount of utter bull written in the comments to this article. But there has to always be one, and usually it is one of the anon or anonymous and usually a Zionist.

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  122. renfro says:
    @anon

    That sounds about right. We have a pretty big Ummah compared to Jews so, by the numbers, even if Jews committed like 5 murders, we’d be on par capita-wise.
     
    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric . I contend that even if the Jewish population increased tenfold you would still see zero terror attacks by Jews against Christians .

    I think there will probably room for personal conversions, though I doubt preaching will be allowed. I mean, hell if the Greeks have the rule:
    “Constitution of Greece, Article 13: Freedom of Religion
    2. All known religions shall be free and their rites of worship shall be performed unhindered and under the protection of the law. The practice of rites of worship is not allowed to offend public order or the good usages. Proselytism is prohibited
     
    .”

    Condmening Christians , Hindus , Buddhists, Jews ,Sikhs to death for proseltysing while allowing Muslims to proseletyse to any religous group is apartheid. Furthermore the Greeks are not condmning anyone to death for proseletysing and are applying the penalties equally to all religions as opposed to Pakistan and many other countries favoring Islam in the legal system.

    I think you are right and should allow asylum for all persecuted Christians into Israel that will show you are honest about the topic and not trying to distract the issue.
     
    Im not trying to distract anything and I will go a step further . No need to cram the millions of Christians being persecuted in Muslim lands into the tiny land of Israel , which anyway has no space for such an endeavor . I propose we return the Christian lands stolen and colonized by Muslims. Coptic Egypt , Tunisia ,Algeria ,Morocco, Libya , Syria, Lebanon etc. I mean if you aren't trying to distract than you would be on board right peaceful tahla ?

    By the way I think you use Isreal as a distraction from the myriad of Muslim occupation and colonization going on . I mean you must be 1000x more offended by the Muslim occupations of Papau, Darfur , Biafra , Cyprus , Kurdistan , Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt etc. I mean the Alawite occupation of Syria must really bother you too.

    Except Jews committed zero terrorist attacks against Christians resulting in zero deaths so you are not on par by any metric . I contend that even if the Jewish population increased tenfold you would still see zero terror attacks by Jews against Christians

    Bullshit. You’re ignorant.

    Bombing of the Hotel David killing 42 British
    Bombing the USS Liberty killing 38 Americans

    Want go back to the good old days of 614 AD when Jews murdered 66,000 Christians during the Persian takeover of Jerusalem?

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  123. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Israel does not allow others to migrate to Israel, it’s JEWS ONLY.
     
    Wrong many non jews have immigrated to Israel .

    Israel to shut migrant centre and deport Africans
     
    Correct they did what you advocate all western nations do when faced with illigal immagrants.

    Forget the ‘slippery slope’ — Israel already is an apartheid state
     
    No but all muslim countries are apartheid states with non muslims , homosexuals and women living as second class citizens with less or essentialy zero rights . In fact in many muslim nations Mauritania ,Sudan , Somalia , Libya they still have chattel slavery and blacks are sold on an open slave market . Your buddies are nice guys!!!!!!!!

    Ah the lovely Talmud ………

    Christians are allied with hell, and Christianity is worse than incest. (BT Avodah Zarah 17a)

    Going to prostitutes is the same as becoming a Christian. (BT Avodah Zarah 17a)

    Those who read the Gospels (uncanonical books) are doomed to hell. (BT Sanhedrin 90a)

    When the Messiah comes, he will destroy the Christians. (BT Sanhedrin 99a)

    Christian books, especially the New Testament, must be destroyed. (BT Shabbat 116a)

    It is not necessary to pay gentile laborers their wages (BT Sanhedrin 57a)

    Gentiles who observe a day of rest are to be executed (BT Sanhedrin 104a)

    Cheating gentiles in court is acceptable (BT Baba Kamma 113a)

    If a gentile kills a Jew, the gentile is to be killed. But if a Jew kills a gentile, the Jew is to go free (BT Sanhedrin 57a)

    “The Amidah prayer, which is recited by Orthodox Jews on Yom Kippur, contains a portion called the Birkat Haminim which calls for the immediate death and eternal punishment of Christians. Rabbi Moses Maimonides, one of the most authoritative legal codifiers in Jewish history states that it is permissible for devout Jews to kill Jewish converts to Christianity without any type of trial or official ruling. (Mamrim 3:2) The ‘Noachide Laws’, which are treated as a standard of ‘universal values’ and ‘timeless principles’, slyly sue for the execution of all Christians. One of the seven commandments in the Noachide doctrine is that all idol worshippers be put to death. While this may seem innocent enough to most, the Talmud identifies Jesus Christ as being the chief idol in human history and His followers being the specific ‘idol worshippers’ intended for destruction. In depicting a lament over great evil doers the Talmud says, “….may we produce no son or pupil who disgraces himself in public like Jesus of Nazareth.” (Berakoth 17b) Further on in the same passage the Talmud equates Jesus with Balaam (the sorcerer who attempted to lead the Israelites astray in the book of Numbers) by substituting Balaam’s name for that of Jesus in a Halachic curse upon idolaters. The passages of note are Sanhedrin 10:2 and Berakoth 17b from the BT. Once again Mr. Hoffman masterfully lays bare the rabbinic attitude towards Christ and His followers; proving again and again that rabbinic Judaism refers to Jesus as ‘sinners of Israel’ and ‘that idol’. (Michael Hoffman, Judaism Discovered, pages 921-922 & 1048-1049)”

    “Slander of Christ and His work at this level should shock any Christian, but it is par for the course within the religion of Orthodox Judaism! Of course this sentiment is not given too much exposure because it is realized that the majority of Christians who discover such things about the Jewish religion will no longer hold much faith in a ‘Judeo Christian’ tradition. The truth of the matter however, is that the Talmud and subsequent legal codifications within Judaism contain extremely negative attitudes and content towards Christ and His followers. The Talmud says that Jesus was an idolater and adulterer and even stoops to insulting His mother, Mary; accusing her of being an adulteress and saying that Jesus was an illegitimate child. BT Gittin 57a says that for His sins, Jesus eternally suffers in a pot of boiling excrement. Especially in this last citation we see just how perverted and deluded the fantasies and imaginations of the rabbis are. How sad is it that such vitriol and myth is codified as dogma within the religion of Judaism? Far from honoring the exaltedness of the Jewish religion, every sincere Christian should seek to free Judaic persons from these traditions of men and display the love of Christ toward them. Assuredly our Lord expects no less of us. Can it be supposed that He will one day find acceptable the efforts of Christians who continuously pay respect to a religion that is so contrary to His work and sacrifice? A religion that codifies and bears witness to its own horrible slander of the Lion of Judah, Jesus Christ! It is put forward by some defenders of the Talmud that although it is typically defamatory towards Jesus, its condemnation of Christ is merely a peripheral issue and of little defining value on the whole. But a more honest evaluation of the Talmud and various rabbinic dogma reveals the centrality of Jesus as a sinner to the Talmudic message.”

    https://brushfireliberty.wordpress.com/2016/04/03/the-judeo-christian-tradition/

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  124. Talha says:
    @anonymous
    I did not confuse my terms, but you did. Not Christians vs Muslims, but Christ vs. Muhamad. Again:

    1) How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit? And Christ? What about raids? What about 9 year old wives? Torturing prisoners?

    2) And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?


    Peace away, but let the answers be short and to the point.

    Christ vs. Muhamad

    No – I didn’t confuse a thing.

    How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit?

    Zero.

    If you are talking how many people died in the wars to unite Arabia – estimates have been around 2000 – 3000 or so.

    And Christ?

    Did he command an army? Was he in charge of fighting the enemies of his people?

    What about raids?

    Same questions as above.

    What about 9 year old wives?

    Did Christ even marry? But let’s say he did – do you really think that he would have married some 30 year-old? Have you even read about marriage norms among Jews in first century Palestine:
    “To understand these statements, we must remember that in the InterTestamental and early rabbinic age, pre-puberty marriage was generally permitted. In fact rabbis seriously debated whether bloodstains found after the wedding night in nuptial bed of a minor, i.e. a ‘virgin in respect of menstruation’, marked her first period or the consummation of the marriage.”
    The Changing Face of Jesus

    Here is the guy that wrote that book:
    “Geza Vermes, who has died aged 88, was one of the world’s leading authorities on the origins of Christianity.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/may/14/geza-vermes

    “In the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, marriage is considered the natural state for men and women, and although there are certainly instances where Jewish men (and rarely, Jewish women) are not married, this is the exception rather than norm. Most women marry quite young, usually soon after the onset of menstruation, which of course, heralds fertility. Men typically marry later (in their twenties, or even thirties) and this most men are older than their wives.”
    What the Bible Really Tells Us: The Essential Guide to Biblical Literacy

    The Son of Mary (pbuh) knew men were marrying off their daughters this young to older men and consummation was usually happening right at puberty, why didn’t he condemn it? The Catholics certainly didn’t see a problem with it for centuries:
    “Betrothals [sponsalia] require seven full years in the contracting parties. The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females, under penalty of nullity (unless natural puberty supplies the want of years).”

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm

    Puberty has always been the pre-modern marker for marriage, and it very naturally occurs in some nine year olds (especially in a time when the average lifespan was less than 35 years):
    “Your first menstrual period is called menarche (say “MEN-ar-kee”). It usually starts sometime between ages 11 and 14. But it can happen as early as age 9 or as late as 15.”

    https://www.webmd.com/children/tc/menarche-topic-overview#1

    “Precocious puberty (PP) is defined as the development of pubertal changes, at an age younger than the accepted lower limits for age of onset of puberty, namely, before age 8 years in girls and 9 years in boys. ”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3005651/

    Torturing prisoners?

    Nonsense – this along with a bunch of other claims has no solid evidence. Bring me something that is sourced in something we actually derive rulings from. The Seerah and Maghazi literature doesn’t reach that level – some of it is corroborated by other sources, other stuff is basically apocrypha; like stories of young Jesus (pbuh) causing the death of children and blinding their parents by cursing them:

    http://gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

    I don’t expect Christians to answer questions about these things nor do I expect to answer questions about something I have zero obligation to consider even occurred. You can believe it as you like.

    And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?

    I’m totally fine if Christians want to disband their navies, armies, etc. and divorce their wives and live celibate lives. Also, if cornered in a fight, make sure to turn the other cheek – that’ll teach ‘em! That’ll teach ‘em good!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Talha.

    In this post, again, you are to prove yourself a liar.

    Early Islam, under Mo, rapine, theft, murder. You deny it. as said before, the only comparable figure is Joseph Smith, Mormon founder, a con-artist in the same way as Mo.

    Readers of this site should reading your post that I am replying to in this thread, also claims of many Islamic sect people, slaves of Zionism, it is hideous (and your reply to me is making you never worthy of a reply again).

    ... and then you claim support from Shia. While the site is swarming with single-use accnunts, and morons to making an account, to only posting as 'Anon' or some variant, i would urge the mods to just automatically banning them if they are posting as some variant of 'Anon' with no previous post.

    Also to recommending to non-muslim readers, check Talha's history of posts, generally faking it, but ugly reality of thought is frequent, this thread as only one example.
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  125. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Straight out of the Horse’s mouth:

    THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS JUDEO-CHRISTIAN VALUES

    “Let’s be clear: Far from “sharing” one tradition, Orthodox Jews are prohibited from marrying Christians, setting foot inside a Christian church—and we can’t even drink from an open bottle of kosher wine that has been used by a Christian. We reject the Christian idea of salvation, we abhor Christian divine teachings on every subject, and we are repulsed and outraged by incessant attempts by Christian missionaries to bring us into their fold.”

    “Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church.”

    “To insist that we have some kind of bond with religious Christians because of similar core values, is to propagate a terrible lie. Christians who base their views on what they call the Old Testament, don’t view Mosaic law as an abiding legal text. The Church has abolished Torah law as part of its attempt to abolish the very idea of Jewish nationhood.”

    “Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship.”

    http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/yoris-news-clips/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/2013/12/26/

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    Ah! Extra long, to confuse and feign learning. You do realize it does not work at Unz? I and many others know enough about Islam to know:
    1) Mahoma is to be despised as man, political leader and prophet.
    2) While the Koran exists, men --and young men-- will correctly interpret it as a call to deception, destruction and war.

    And yes, he did torture his future wife's husband to find out where he'd hidden riches. Did anybody make similar claims about Christ?

    Talha... was that not the name of a cousin of Mahoma that saved his life in pitched battle, stopping a sword-thrust with his bare hand?
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  126. Kiza says:
    @Talha
    Thanks Ivan,

    But I advise you not to whitewash the long, bloody history of Islamic conquest and terror.
     
    No whitewashing. Because the conquest was so long and varied, one has to look at the details. Some conquests were extremely brutal and bloody and some were as clean as conquests can get. Any of the rulers and armies that violated sacred law in prosecuting wars will stand up for judgement before God for their crimes. I will certainly not defend their actions.

    Our exemplars are the Rashidun in administration and on the field of battle - from their conduct do we derive rules of conduct; everyone else is judged by their standard. Most Muslim rulers historically have fallen short, way short.

    My point has been that it is hardly the case that Muslims have been the only ones on Earth with a record of bloody conquest, a cursory look at human history will prove that out (we just happened to be more successful than others for a long time, but - as I've pointed out - we have had our butts routinely handed to us on the battlefield since around the 17th century).

    The other problem I have is that people talk about the pre-modern world as if it was some kumbayyah playground where everyone followed nice rules and were the equivalent of Sweden in foreign policy. I have news for them, even Sweden can't live up to that historically and had an empire. Trying to apply our norms and assumptions to the past is ahistoric and juvenile. Anybody who does this has not read books by serious military historians.

    Now that was all before our current international norms that came into play in the aftermath of WW2. All nations are signatories to these rules and should abide by them as per rules of non-aggression.

    Peace.

    Talha, I have been commenting on unz since it started and I have been reading your comments for a while without engaging in a debate. As a Christian, I did agree with you very often, but your comments are becoming too fervent and too partisan. For example, other commenters lay it out for you that things are not the way you say, but you poo-pah and continue on with your pro-Sunni tirades.

    Reduce the fervor a notch and drop completely your provocative and corny sign-off “Peace” and you will become a decent and pleasant commenter to read. BTW, I am old enough to understand that those who talk too much of peace are the ones who wage war to get peace. Otherwise, you will be just another a-hole on a mission that the comments sections to this zine is full of, which made me become a casual visitor. There are other places where the fervor is lower and the intellectual debate is higher.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Kiza,

    Thanks for the suggestions. I've benefited from your posts as well.


    For example, other commenters lay it out for you that things are not the way you say, but you poo-pah
     
    Can you point something out for me as an example where I dismissed someone's factual claims? I don't mean this in a provocative way; I'd really like to see where I can improve because I don't like simply bypassing/dismissing facts. That's not a cool way to operate. I dismiss people's opinions all the time, because everyone has them.

    pro-Sunni
     
    Yes - that's the angle I come from. I'm biased in that way because that's my background and training, but you can ask the Shiah guys on this forum if I don't treat Shiah doctrine and history fairly. They've corrected me when I've overstepped.

    Reduce the fervor a notch
     
    Sure thing, I'll totally admit to losing my cool at times.

    your provocative and corny sign-off “Peace”
     
    Hmmm - OK - does this really set people off? What do others think?
    , @Anon
    @ which made me become a casual visitor. There are other places where the fervor is lower and the intellectual debate is higher.

    Would you kindly point me towards those? Sane, polite and honest would be wonderful.
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  127. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    My favorite Catholic author..

    Dr E Michael Jones on the Black Jewish Alliance and Destabilization
    Dr. E. Michael Jones returns to discuss his piece “Soros or Cyrus: The Violent Legacy of the Black/Jewish Alliance.” We talk about how Jewish support for the Civil Rights Movement was really an attempt to turn black Americans into revolutionaries. When that project failed in the late 1960s, the CIA and Hollywood went to work producing a series of “blaxploitation” films promoting criminal behavior and sexual promiscuity among black youth with the goal of destroying the already weakened black family. Later we discuss how the militarization of the country’s police departments and the creation of a black “lumpenproletariat” are part of a divide-and-conquer strategy.

    E Michael Jones on The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit
    This is the most in-depth and scholarly acceptable book available detailing the long and bloody history of the conflict between Western, Christian Civilization – particularly the Catholic Church – and the Jews. The constant acts of revolution and subversion are all chronicled here.

    This is a conflict that has simmered and boiled for over 2000 years and has done much to shape world history – from The Crucifixion to the current conflict in Syria. If you ever hope to fully come to grips with and understand “The JQ” (AKA: The Red Pill there is no coming back from) from a historical and academic perspective then this book is a “must read”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    E. Michael Jones is an RCC groid/gloid lover who would OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. His “blame the Jews for everything” shtick is his way of not dealing with whom is really causing problems in the world – the RCC/Zioevangizers/Freemasons.

    I watch his youtubes and he never fails to come up with something idiotic. He criticizes pornography which is fine, but blames it all on the Jews. Sure, Alfred Kinsey and Hugh Hefner needed the Jews for their “work.”

    He doesn’t believe there are Caucasian/white people. He says he’s not white, he’s German/Irish. Madness!!!

    He believes philosophy is the way to deal with world problems. He travels to Iran where of course he has an audience for his anti-Semitic nonsense. But he has never once said that Islam is a Christian heresy.

    He doesn’t deal with IQ – which is the starting point of everything.

    He rants about usury and capitalism. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to make an honest profit. He conveniently forgets the parable of the talents.

    I’m not a semitophile. I want Jews out of the West and in Israel. This is why I support Israel because we need a place for the Jews. Jones will babble about the poor Palestinians. Most Palestinians are Muslims with an average IQ of 85. They are racially mixed, like most North Africans and can easily be absorbed by neighboring Arab countries.
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  128. geokat62 says:
    @anon

    Israel does not allow others to migrate to Israel, it’s JEWS ONLY.
     
    Wrong many non jews have immigrated to Israel .

    Israel to shut migrant centre and deport Africans
     
    Correct they did what you advocate all western nations do when faced with illigal immagrants.

    Forget the ‘slippery slope’ — Israel already is an apartheid state
     
    No but all muslim countries are apartheid states with non muslims , homosexuals and women living as second class citizens with less or essentialy zero rights . In fact in many muslim nations Mauritania ,Sudan , Somalia , Libya they still have chattel slavery and blacks are sold on an open slave market . Your buddies are nice guys!!!!!!!!

    Wrong many non jews have immigrated to Israel .

    Many? Why don’t you tell us how many is many?

    Cause according to this top response to the question: Is Israel a Jews-only state? Can a non-Jew live and work there? posed on the Quora Forum, my sense is that the true answer is very few non Jews have immigrated to Israel:

    Oren Shamir, lived in Israel
    Answered Feb 28, 2015

    Israel gives equal rights to all citizens, regardless of religion, race, gender etc.
    Where it does discriminate in favor of Jews is in the way to become a citizen.
    Basically, if you were born here and your parents are citizens, you are a citizen too. But if you wish to immigrate here, and become a citizen, then it would be very easy if you are Jewish and very difficult if you are not. This is so because Israel was founded as “the National home for the Jewish people” and its main purpose was to be a shelter and safe haven for this much persecuted ethnic group.

    Israel’s immigration laws explicitly favor Jews. They also give room for “judgement” in deciding whether non-Jews can become citizens. The authority making this judgment is the ministry of internal affairs. More precisely, it’s in the hands of the minister.

    This makes the question of non-Jewish immigration a political one. Since there are no clear rules or guidelines as to who gets to get in, it depends on the specific minister currently in office, and the government he is a part of, to decide how “open” Israel is to non-Jewish immigrants at any given time.
    In most cases it’s not really open, but there could be exceptions. An immigrant or refugee could ask for citizenship and hope that the minister will decide in their favor. The outcome is subject to the immigrant’s personal circumstances as well as current political and even personal views of those in power.

    One notable example is when, during the Vietnam War in the 1970′s a boat with Vietnamese refugees was accepted into Israel and its passengers were given citizenship by the then Prime Minister, Menahem Begin. He thought that he couldn’t let these people drown or starve, like so many countries let Jewish refugees die at sea when they fled Nazi Germany.

    On the other hand, there are currently thousands of people coming into Israel from Africa, mostly from Sudan and Eritrea. The question of whether these people are work immigrants, trying to “piggyback” on Israel’s thriving economy (well, relatively speaking) or refugees escaping horrible circumstances is highly debated in Israel. The current government generally tends to see them as illegal immigrants and many activists think they’re refugees. My assumption here is that a different government might have been more flexible towards these people and might have given some of them citizenship based on their personal circumstances.

    The bottom line is this. Just as most other countries, Israel has immigration laws deciding who gets to become a citizen. Israel’s immigration laws favor Jews. Not because we think “Jews are better” but because we think Jews have nowhere else to turn to when they’re being persecuted.

    https://www.quora.com/Is-Israel-a-Jews-only-state-Can-a-non-Jew-live-and-work-there?share=1

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  129. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    oh the splendid Talmud ….

    When Christ accused the Pharisees of His day of being Satan’s spiritual children, He fully realized what they were capable of. Second century Rabbi Simeon ben Yohai, one of Judaism’s very greatest rabbis and a creator of Kabbalah, sanctioned pedophilia—permitting molestation of baby girls even younger than three! He proclaimed, “A proselyte who is under the age of three years and a day is permitted to marry a priest.” 1 Subsequent rabbis refer to ben Yohai’s endorsement of pedophilia as “halakah,” or binding Jewish law. 2 Has ben Yohai, child rape advocate, been disowned by modern Jews? Hardly. Today, in ben Yohai’s hometown of Meron, Israel, tens of thousands of orthodox and ultra-orthodox Jews gather annually for days and nights of singing and dancing in his memory.

    References to pedophilia abound in the Talmud. They occupy considerable sections of Treatises Kethuboth and Yebamoth and are enthusiastically endorsed by the Talmud’s definitive legal work, Treatise Sanhedrin.

    The Pharisees Endorsed Child Sex

    The rabbis of the Talmud are notorious for their legal hairsplitting, and quibbling debates. But they share rare agreement about their right to molest three year old girls. In contrast to many hotly debated issues, hardly a hint of dissent rises against the prevailing opinion (expressed in many clear passages) that pedophilia is not only normal but scriptural as well! It’s as if the rabbis have found an exalted truth whose majesty silences debate.

    Because the Talmudic authorities who sanction pedophilia are so renowned, and because pedophilia as “halakah” is so explicitly emphasized, not even the translators of the Soncino edition of the Talmud (1936) dared insert a footnote suggesting the slightest criticism. They only comment: “Marriage, of course, was then at a far earlier age than now.” 3

    In fact, footnote 5 to Sanhedrin 60b rejects the right of a Talmudic rabbi to disagree with ben Yohai’s endorsement of pedophilia: “How could they [the rabbis], contrary to the opinion of R. Simeon ben Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselyte?” 4

    [MORE]

    Out of Babylon

    It was in Babylon after the exile under Nebuchadnezzar in 597 BC that Judaism’s leading sages probably began to indulge in pedophilia. Babylon was the staggeringly immoral capitol of the ancient world. For 1600 years, the world’s largest population of Jews flourished within it.

    As an example of their evil, Babylonian priests said a man’s religious duty included regular sex with temple prostitutes. Bestiality was widely tolerated. So Babylonians hardly cared whether a rabbi married a three year old girl.

    But with expulsion of the Jews in the 11th century AD, mostly to western Christian lands, Gentile tolerance of Jewish pedophilia abruptly ended.

    Still, a shocking contradiction lingers: If Jews want to revere the transcendent wisdom and moral guidance of the Pharisees and their Talmud, they must accept the right of their greatest ancient sages to violate children. To this hour, no synod of Judaism has repudiated their vile practice.

    Sex with a “Minor” Permitted

    What exactly did these sages say?

    The Pharisees justified child rape by explaining that a boy of nine years was not a “man” (See, “Judaism and Homosexuality: A Marriage Made in Hell”) Thus they exempted him from God’s Mosaic Law: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination” (Lev. 18:22) One passage in the Talmud gives permission for a woman who molested her young son to marry a high priest. It concludes, “All agree that the connection of a boy aged nine years and a day is a real connection; whilst that of one less than eight years is not.” 5 Because a boy under 9 is sexually immature, he can’t “throw guilt” on the active offender, morally or legally. 6

    A woman could molest a young boy without questions of morality even being raised: “…the intercourse of a small boy is not regarded as a sexual act.” 7 The Talmud also says, “A male aged nine years and a day who cohabits with his deceased brother’s wife acquires her (as wife).” 8 Clearly, the Talmud teaches that a woman is permitted to marry and have sex with a nine year old boy.

    Sex at Three Years and One Day

    In contrast to Simeon ben Yohai’s dictum that sex with a little girl is permitted under the age of three years, the general teaching of the Talmud is that the rabbi must wait until a day after her third birthday. She could be taken in marriage simply by the act of rape.

    R. Joseph said: Come and hear! A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. (Sanh. 55b)

    A girl who is three years of age and one day may be betrothed by cohabitation. . . .(Yeb. 57b)

    A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabited with her she becomes his. (Sanh. 69a, 69b, also discussed in Yeb. 60b)

    It was taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest, for it is said, But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves, and Phineas (who was priest, the footnote says) surely was with them. (Yeb. 60b)

    [The Talmud says such three year and a day old girls are] . . . fit for cohabitation. . . But all women children, that have not known man by lying with him, it must be concluded that Scripture speaks of one who is fit for cohabitation. (Footnote to Yeb. 60b)

    The example of Phineas, a priest, himself marrying an underage virgin of three years is considered by the Talmud as proof that such infants are “fit for cohabitation.”

    The Talmud teaches that an adult woman’s molestation of a nine year old boy is “not a sexual act” and cannot “throw guilt” upon her because the little boy is not truly a “man.” 9 But they use opposite logic to sanction rape of little girls aged three years and one day: Such infants they count as “women,” sexually mature and fully responsible to comply with the requirements of marriage.

    The Talmud footnotes 3 and 4 to Sanhedrin 55a clearly tell us when the rabbis considered a boy and girl sexually mature and thus ready for marriage. “At nine years a male attains sexual matureness… The sexual matureness of woman is reached at the age of three.”

    https://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/pedophiliasecret.html

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  130. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Straight out of the Horse's mouth:

    THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS JUDEO-CHRISTIAN VALUES

    “Let’s be clear: Far from “sharing” one tradition, Orthodox Jews are prohibited from marrying Christians, setting foot inside a Christian church—and we can’t even drink from an open bottle of kosher wine that has been used by a Christian. We reject the Christian idea of salvation, we abhor Christian divine teachings on every subject, and we are repulsed and outraged by incessant attempts by Christian missionaries to bring us into their fold.”

    “Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church.”

    “To insist that we have some kind of bond with religious Christians because of similar core values, is to propagate a terrible lie. Christians who base their views on what they call the Old Testament, don’t view Mosaic law as an abiding legal text. The Church has abolished Torah law as part of its attempt to abolish the very idea of Jewish nationhood.”

    “Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship.”


    http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/yoris-news-clips/theres-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian-values/2013/12/26/

    Ah! Extra long, to confuse and feign learning. You do realize it does not work at Unz? I and many others know enough about Islam to know:
    1) Mahoma is to be despised as man, political leader and prophet.
    2) While the Koran exists, men –and young men– will correctly interpret it as a call to deception, destruction and war.

    And yes, he did torture his future wife’s husband to find out where he’d hidden riches. Did anybody make similar claims about Christ?

    Talha… was that not the name of a cousin of Mahoma that saved his life in pitched battle, stopping a sword-thrust with his bare hand?

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    • Replies: @Talha
    I think we are having an "anonymous" meltdown here...so not sure it was addressed to me, but...
    1) Opinion - thanks.
    2) It is correctly interpreted by qualified scholars - random "young men" don't count. And yes, it gives and will continue to give us guidelines for how to wage war according to the sacred law - we're not pretending to be pacifists. This has nothing to do with the mindless terrorism that these foolish young men carry out against innocent Muslims and non-Muslims - as the scholars have been outlining to years now.

    And yes, he did torture his future wife’s husband to find out where he’d hidden riches.
     
    Your dog tortured some guy to find out where a bone was hid. I just made a claim (source; myself) - prove it wrong.

    Did anybody make similar claims about Christ?
     
    When did he wage war again such that somebody would even think of making such a claim?

    Talha (ra) was the name of the Companion that did take multiple arrows and sword thrusts at Uhud and, yes, he lost his fingers on that day, not sure due to which strike.

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  131. Talha says:
    @anon

    Sure, why would they commit terrorist acts when they can do it through state power? That is far more effective.
     
    First you suggested that Muslims commit more terrorism than other groups because they have higher numbers .You suggested 400-500 Christians killed in deliberate terror attacks against Christian targets in 2017 was comparable to 5 Christians killed by Jews deliberately targeting Christians. When I pointed out that there were zero instances of Jews targeting Christians in terror attacks, now you move the goal line and suggest that this is because Jews have a military in the Jewish state .

    But if that is the case why is there still individual level Muslim terror attacks outnumbering all other religions when there are 54 Islamic republics with their own military committing terror attacks on their religious minorities ? Muslims commit state terror and individual terror acts at levels not seen in any other group so again your justifications and lies come up short.


    nobody is going to go back to original borders of ten centuries ago or 3000 years ago
     
    There were no Muslims 3,000 years ago but the globe is rife with examples of borders usurped and colonized and occupied with genocide and ethnic cleansing by rape by Muslims in the past 50 years or so :
    Indonesian occupation of Papua : 1963 to present . 138,000 square miles occupied , 500,000 + killed. Worse than Israel by every imaginable metric . By the way how many Papuans are worth one Palestinian to you ?? All of them ?
    Turkish occupation of Cyprus, Turkish occupation of Kurdistan , Moroccan occupation of Western Sahara , Nigerian occupation of Biafra , Sudanese occupation of Darfur , Jordanian occupation of Palestine &c. &c. Millions killed and hundreds of thousands of square miles occupied in these examples . Any of these recent enough for your taste ?? All hugely worse by 100x times of anything Israel has done .

    Not really, they’ll go the Sunni route soon enough:
     

    That is a prediction but at the moment occcupied by Alawites.

    Why even bother mentioning Isarel when your own co-religionists are killing in numbers 1000X higher . Clean your own house , after all it is the filthiest one on the planet .

    When I pointed out that there were zero instances of Jews targeting Christians in terror attacks

    You’re right, I don’t think they are targeting Christians. Israeli settler terrorism is usually directed at Muslim Palestinians:
    “In 2015, Yesh Din documented 135 incidents of ideologically motivated offenses committed against Palestinians, including 58 incidents of violence and 39 incidents of damage to property. Of these, 27 took place inside Palestinian homes or communities, including six cases of arson or attempted arson of Palestinian homes while families were inside.

    https://www.yesh-din.org/en/2015-in-numbers/

    Now, we haven’t seen anything at the level of Baruch Goldstein for a while, but that hardly means Jews have no more extremists among them that don’t carry out vigilante violence.

    Muslims commit state terror and individual terror acts at levels not seen in any other group

    Not sure about state terror – Iraq, Syria and Libya were bombed by Western armies, but I fully agree we’ve got a serious extremism problem that we have to solve – little doubt about that.

    Turkish occupation of Kurdistan

    Uh – what? Didn’t I just say post WW2 UN? That’s like saying the US should give back Navajo land.

    Jordanian occupation of Palestine

    LOL! That’s hilarious – the heir to the Jordanian throne is half-Palestinian!

    All hugely worse by 100x times of anything Israel has done.

    No, not by capita or area – Israel is worse as far as land mass she is gobbling up – here are Indonesia and Morocco by comparison:
    Israeli expansion (relative to its size): 2500/8522 = 29%
    Indonesian expansion (relative to size): 130,000/735,358 = 18%
    Moroccan expansion (relative to size –[it actually only occupies 2/3 of Western Sahara, look it up]):
    68,660/274,460 = 25%

    Clean your own house

    Oh we have a massive amount of cleaning up to do of our own people, that’s for sure. We are undoubtedly in a very sanguinary stage as compared to the rest of the world and that needs to be put in check. Far too much violence against each other and against others. So I’ll agree here.

    Now as for the conflicts that you mentioned; let’s cut to the chase:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people’s lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should – in good faith – abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    These two questions should be no-brainers; they are asking for equivalency in looking at the matter and will let us know if you actually mean what you say from a moral, principled position or if you are simply distracting.

    Peace.

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  132. Talha says:
    @Kiza
    Talha, I have been commenting on unz since it started and I have been reading your comments for a while without engaging in a debate. As a Christian, I did agree with you very often, but your comments are becoming too fervent and too partisan. For example, other commenters lay it out for you that things are not the way you say, but you poo-pah and continue on with your pro-Sunni tirades.

    Reduce the fervor a notch and drop completely your provocative and corny sign-off "Peace" and you will become a decent and pleasant commenter to read. BTW, I am old enough to understand that those who talk too much of peace are the ones who wage war to get peace. Otherwise, you will be just another a-hole on a mission that the comments sections to this zine is full of, which made me become a casual visitor. There are other places where the fervor is lower and the intellectual debate is higher.

    Hey Kiza,

    Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve benefited from your posts as well.

    For example, other commenters lay it out for you that things are not the way you say, but you poo-pah

    Can you point something out for me as an example where I dismissed someone’s factual claims? I don’t mean this in a provocative way; I’d really like to see where I can improve because I don’t like simply bypassing/dismissing facts. That’s not a cool way to operate. I dismiss people’s opinions all the time, because everyone has them.

    pro-Sunni

    Yes – that’s the angle I come from. I’m biased in that way because that’s my background and training, but you can ask the Shiah guys on this forum if I don’t treat Shiah doctrine and history fairly. They’ve corrected me when I’ve overstepped.

    Reduce the fervor a notch

    Sure thing, I’ll totally admit to losing my cool at times.

    your provocative and corny sign-off “Peace”

    Hmmm – OK – does this really set people off? What do others think?

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    As I said, I mostly like your comments and I have learned quite a bit about Sunni Islam from them, thank you. But I did feel, maybe I misunderstood, that you do not accept for example, that the Christians in Pakistan are oppressed and not only by the extremists.

    In general, one wins more arguments when one keeps one’s cool.

    Finally, regarding your sign off, I think that you mean well, most of us here truly want peace (if US could somehow disappear, 90% of war on the planet would disappear with it, especially the pro-Zionist wars). But at least to me it is annoying to scroll down the comments and see so many repeats of the word, when there is so little of it in life. It is as if you were dangling the juiciest carrot in front of the nose of this poor donkey who can never reach it and eat it.

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  133. Talha says:
    @anonymous
    Ah! Extra long, to confuse and feign learning. You do realize it does not work at Unz? I and many others know enough about Islam to know:
    1) Mahoma is to be despised as man, political leader and prophet.
    2) While the Koran exists, men --and young men-- will correctly interpret it as a call to deception, destruction and war.

    And yes, he did torture his future wife's husband to find out where he'd hidden riches. Did anybody make similar claims about Christ?

    Talha... was that not the name of a cousin of Mahoma that saved his life in pitched battle, stopping a sword-thrust with his bare hand?

    I think we are having an “anonymous” meltdown here…so not sure it was addressed to me, but…
    1) Opinion – thanks.
    2) It is correctly interpreted by qualified scholars – random “young men” don’t count. And yes, it gives and will continue to give us guidelines for how to wage war according to the sacred law – we’re not pretending to be pacifists. This has nothing to do with the mindless terrorism that these foolish young men carry out against innocent Muslims and non-Muslims – as the scholars have been outlining to years now.

    And yes, he did torture his future wife’s husband to find out where he’d hidden riches.

    Your dog tortured some guy to find out where a bone was hid. I just made a claim (source; myself) – prove it wrong.

    Did anybody make similar claims about Christ?

    When did he wage war again such that somebody would even think of making such a claim?

    Talha (ra) was the name of the Companion that did take multiple arrows and sword thrusts at Uhud and, yes, he lost his fingers on that day, not sure due to which strike.

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  134. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I did not confuse my terms, but you did. Not Christians vs Muslims, but Christ vs. Muhamad. Again:
    1) How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit? And Christ? What about raids? What about 9 year old wives? Torturing prisoners?
    2) And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?
     
    You are quite a hasbara troll. Stop lying about Muhammad. Muhammad did NOT marry aisha when she was 9 YEARS OLD , he married Aisha when she was 6 YEARS OLD !!!!!!! . He consumated the marriage when she was 9 years old LOL . He was a gentleman ,a ring a ding ding baby . Get your facts straight !!!!!!!!!!

    If you lived like Muhammad you would be in jail for gross sexual violations of minors , well maybe not in the UK ..............

    You’re right. However he apparently consummated when she was 9 (he over 50 if memory serves), and as his shining example is base of law for Muslims, that is the age that counts TODAY. The Koran dropped whole from heaven and one has to submit, never interpret. So today, in Iran, 9 year olds can be married off. Before the Iranian Revolution, age of marriage was 16. In Yemen, age of marriage is… 9 years old, with 52% of girls marrying before or at 10 yrs old. Around same % for Bangladesh. In Pakistan in 2010, a 25 yr old man married a 6 MONTH. old, for there is no lower limit for girl marriage, as is the case in Saudi Arabia. They were trying to pass similar laws in Egypt, not up to date on that. In Gaza, in 2009, there were 450 child brides under 10 in a major ceremony, but they were lucky because the husbands were 25-35.

    But I am sure they’ll be kindly dealt with, since Muhammad is their prophet.

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  135. Kiza says:

    Here is an article about Jesus Christ if born in police state US: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/12/john-w-whitehead/jesus-was-born-in-a-police-state/

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  136. This discussion has to be read to be believed. A few zionist trolls (usually anonymous or nameless) take the discussion completely astray, as they do every time when the subject does not suit them. This article is not about Christians vs Muslims. Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel. The question of Muslim law in Pakistan is irrelevant to discussion; so is the question of Prophet Muhammad’s inspiration. Equally irrelevant is the Black vs White – there are no BW in the Middle East.
    In the result of these trolls’ activity, almost everybody speaks off topic. If it were Facebook, I’d delete many comments to trim the discussion to topic. Here, the trolls won. They mis-presented Jerusalem as Christian vs Muslim subject and carried us away into silly subject of Muhammad and his followers.
    Webb is another troll, an obsessed racialist.
    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?

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    • Agree: Talha, Kiza
    • Replies: @Talha
    Excellent thought Mr. Shamir, my apologies for being goaded into response by the anonymous hasbara and being part of the off-topic discussion.

    Peace.
    , @Kiza
    Mr Shamir, I appologise for posting a link to an article which is off-topic, the one placing the birth of Jesus Christ into US, which is obviously off topic to your article. But I found the quoted article as perspective-openning as yours. We are being told every day, almost every hour that we live in a “free society” but this other article shows that JC would have been tasered, beaten up, killed ten times over by the current authorities for his words and his deeds. In other words, by present criteria JC got away with a lot before he was eventually crucified for defying the Jewish ideologues and the Roman police state that he lived in. Even the Jewish ideologues of that time that JC clashed against appear much more tolerant than the Neocons/Zionists of this time. And we are free, ha!!!

    As to Hasbara trolls they have become the dominant feature of unz.com, unfortunately, and not only of your articles. The most attacked authors are Giraldi, then you and Saker. To some extent, this is a sign of achievement in speaking truth against the powerful, but I am aware that only the sites which delete their comments can keep them on topic. They dilute and they draw the discussion away.
    , @anon

    Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel
     
    Even the eminent and supremely peaceful Tahla admits that this is not the truth . You claim to be a Christian but spend all your time writing from an Islam firster perspective and spewing the most base takkiyah and kitman in every article.

    The relevant question is why a supposed Orthodox Christian prefers to ignore genocide against Christians in occupied Papua , Iraq ,Syria , Sudan and instead write takkiya articles ?? What kind of Christian cares about a few thousand Muslims being killed in Israel , when these same muslims massacre and genocide and rape Christians all around the world . Millions of Christians have been killed by Islamic regimes in the recent past up until today and Muslim individuals target Christians with terrorism daily? Are you really a Christian ?? doubt it.


    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?
     
    Oh the leftist SJW comes out of hiding and decides he wants to stifle free speech and discussion . Why am I not surprised ? Maybe saying anything negative about Mohamad should be off limits too . Saying something negative about gays and trannies too . Wow I knew you were a full blown takkiya troll but now you exposed yourself as a SJW activist as well . The same things you whine about as regards to Jews is true about yourself as well Shamir !!!!!! Read something I don't like , SHUT IT DOWN !!!!! Every . Single. Time. LoLoLoL
    , @Sam Shama
    Hi Israel,
    A generally thought-provoking piece, echoing many of the sentiments one hears in Yerushalayim all the time. Any discussion concerning Yerushalayim is bound to result in a dogfight between Christians, Muslims, and Jews. You'd be delusional to think you could make any difference one way or the other.

    I did spot you delivering dental advice emblazoned in yellow. How charming.

    What was the subject of this piece again?

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  137. Seraphim says:
    @Talha
    Hey Seraphim,

    Islam was ‘revealed’ by a jinn to a mere mortal.
     
    LOL! Man you are awesome! I think you really ought to debate some Muslims and post it on youtube or something!

    Necessarily one of the affirmations is false. There is no doubt which one is. The account of the Gospels is the true one...
     
    Yeah - that's the point. Thanks for your opinion for why you are a Christian. Not like I was expecting you to say the Qur'an was true or something - that would have been weird.

    So yeah - you agree; because I reject Christianity - I'm going to burn in a lake of fire. So stop virtue-signaling - as if you don't do the same thing - you just say it's justified because you say you're right. Do you really think that's convincing, like because you say so? We say, we're right - because we're awesome - and there is no doubt to our awesomeness - so there!

    They are ‘tolerated’ only if they pay protection money to the ‘Ummah’ mafia.
     
    I don't think any Muslim country charges jizya any more. Can you find evidence of any that do? As far as the past - yeah, pay your taxes or sign up to help defend the borders like the Jarajimah if you are an able-bodied man:
    “Early Muslim rulers have at times entered dhimmah agreements which eliminated the jizyah altogether—as in the agreement entered during the time of the second caliph `Umar with the Turkish tribe of Jarajimah which welcomed the Muslim forces and declared its dislike of the Romans, but stipulated that its members be allowed to remain Christian; this was agreed…The tribe also agreed to help the Muslims in the event of any military engagement with the Romans. The Muslim party agreed in return to protect the tribe and also relieved its members from payment of jizyah.”
    http://arts.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/2297733/ISIS_Origins,-Ideology,-and-Responses-by-Mainstream-Muslim-Scholars.pdf

    Women, children and elderly get a free ride, but men shouldn't be pansies and expect to have their borders defended for free.

    Peace.

    I watched innumerable Muslim-Christian ‘debates’ and in all cases Muslims made fools of themselves by ‘countering’ Christians objections with the same sophistic tricks of avoiding to answer the direct questions, avoiding to address the subject in discussion, straw-man arguments, refuting a universal by citing a particular example, whataboutism, ad hominem arguments, ironizing (or downright insulting) the interlocutor, begging the question, repeating to saturation Islamic slogans (when they don’t end up with the ‘supreme argument’ – “you insult the ‘prophet’, ‘you blaspheme Islam’”, which may incur the death penalty), as you do.
    You may fancy yourself as a great ‘debater’ (you are as ‘awesome’ as I am, aren’t you?) but let me tell you that you are not. It would be hard when you embrace falsehood as truth. The Christ said: “I am the Truth, the Way and the Life”. Rejecting Him is to reject Life. But ‘you make the bed you lie in’. It’s up to you.

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  138. @Habarigani
    In that case UN general assembly which helped establish Israel should withdraw its recognition!!!

    As I said, the UN only put a veneer on what was already there. In fact, the UN proposed the original two-state solution, and the Israelis accepted it; it was the Arab states of the region that rejected it. The Palestinians never factor that into their complaints, and they’ve never grasped that they are not welcome in any of the surrounding Arab states, much less why, which is because they are PITA.

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    • Replies: @Moi
    Yeah, the UNGA gave 55 percent of the land to a people who were a minority population (the Jews). Would you accept such a deal? BTW, the UNGA has no right under any law to give away another people's land without their consent.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/check-msnbcs-palestinian/

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  139. Talha says:
    @Israel Shamir
    This discussion has to be read to be believed. A few zionist trolls (usually anonymous or nameless) take the discussion completely astray, as they do every time when the subject does not suit them. This article is not about Christians vs Muslims. Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel. The question of Muslim law in Pakistan is irrelevant to discussion; so is the question of Prophet Muhammad's inspiration. Equally irrelevant is the Black vs White - there are no BW in the Middle East.
    In the result of these trolls' activity, almost everybody speaks off topic. If it were Facebook, I'd delete many comments to trim the discussion to topic. Here, the trolls won. They mis-presented Jerusalem as Christian vs Muslim subject and carried us away into silly subject of Muhammad and his followers.
    Webb is another troll, an obsessed racialist.
    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?

    Excellent thought Mr. Shamir, my apologies for being goaded into response by the anonymous hasbara and being part of the off-topic discussion.

    Peace.

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  140. Kiza says:
    @Talha
    Hey Kiza,

    Thanks for the suggestions. I've benefited from your posts as well.


    For example, other commenters lay it out for you that things are not the way you say, but you poo-pah
     
    Can you point something out for me as an example where I dismissed someone's factual claims? I don't mean this in a provocative way; I'd really like to see where I can improve because I don't like simply bypassing/dismissing facts. That's not a cool way to operate. I dismiss people's opinions all the time, because everyone has them.

    pro-Sunni
     
    Yes - that's the angle I come from. I'm biased in that way because that's my background and training, but you can ask the Shiah guys on this forum if I don't treat Shiah doctrine and history fairly. They've corrected me when I've overstepped.

    Reduce the fervor a notch
     
    Sure thing, I'll totally admit to losing my cool at times.

    your provocative and corny sign-off “Peace”
     
    Hmmm - OK - does this really set people off? What do others think?

    As I said, I mostly like your comments and I have learned quite a bit about Sunni Islam from them, thank you. But I did feel, maybe I misunderstood, that you do not accept for example, that the Christians in Pakistan are oppressed and not only by the extremists.

    In general, one wins more arguments when one keeps one’s cool.

    Finally, regarding your sign off, I think that you mean well, most of us here truly want peace (if US could somehow disappear, 90% of war on the planet would disappear with it, especially the pro-Zionist wars). But at least to me it is annoying to scroll down the comments and see so many repeats of the word, when there is so little of it in life. It is as if you were dangling the juiciest carrot in front of the nose of this poor donkey who can never reach it and eat it.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Kiza,

    But I did feel, maybe I misunderstood, that you do not accept for example, that the Christians in Pakistan are oppressed and not only by the extremists.
     
    No - I accept that they are oppressed (unfortunately). This is by the extremists and also by a general air of extremism that has crept through society over the years. Growing up I never knew who the Pakistani Christians were because people like my parents treated them as they would any other person. I was told years later that so-and-so and so-and-so was a Christian. There is no doubt that there is vigilante violence against them and that things like blasphemy laws are used unfairly against them by people who have personal scores to settle. Of this, I have little doubt. I also know that many top-level scholars have been pushing back against this.

    Now - legally (at least on paper), they have plenty of rights and if the populace was to adhere to those rules, they should have no problems. Of course, they do not have certain rights like the ability to proselytize or marry Muslim women, but these are not restrictions we feel are oppressive. If I in the US was blocked from proselytizing or marrying non-Muslim women, I could certainly point out that I was not being treated equally, but I don't consider that oppression.

    In general, one wins more arguments when one keeps one’s cool.
     
    No doubt about this.

    Finally, regarding your sign off
     
    I'll take this into consideration. If I am having a friendly exchange with someone, I'll use it. If I'm debating someone, I won't since it may be seen as "provocative" as you pointed out.

    Thanks much for the suggestions! :)
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  141. Kiza says:
    @Israel Shamir
    This discussion has to be read to be believed. A few zionist trolls (usually anonymous or nameless) take the discussion completely astray, as they do every time when the subject does not suit them. This article is not about Christians vs Muslims. Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel. The question of Muslim law in Pakistan is irrelevant to discussion; so is the question of Prophet Muhammad's inspiration. Equally irrelevant is the Black vs White - there are no BW in the Middle East.
    In the result of these trolls' activity, almost everybody speaks off topic. If it were Facebook, I'd delete many comments to trim the discussion to topic. Here, the trolls won. They mis-presented Jerusalem as Christian vs Muslim subject and carried us away into silly subject of Muhammad and his followers.
    Webb is another troll, an obsessed racialist.
    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?

    Mr Shamir, I appologise for posting a link to an article which is off-topic, the one placing the birth of Jesus Christ into US, which is obviously off topic to your article. But I found the quoted article as perspective-openning as yours. We are being told every day, almost every hour that we live in a “free society” but this other article shows that JC would have been tasered, beaten up, killed ten times over by the current authorities for his words and his deeds. In other words, by present criteria JC got away with a lot before he was eventually crucified for defying the Jewish ideologues and the Roman police state that he lived in. Even the Jewish ideologues of that time that JC clashed against appear much more tolerant than the Neocons/Zionists of this time. And we are free, ha!!!

    As to Hasbara trolls they have become the dominant feature of unz.com, unfortunately, and not only of your articles. The most attacked authors are Giraldi, then you and Saker. To some extent, this is a sign of achievement in speaking truth against the powerful, but I am aware that only the sites which delete their comments can keep them on topic. They dilute and they draw the discussion away.

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  142. Ivan says:
    @anon
    Hi Ivan .
    I could go point by point but the facts can be stated succinctly : The war was Sunni Muslims vs Shia Muslims. If Israel agitated for one outcome or another , or made a statement about chemicals being used it does not change the fact that the war was fought and the killing was done by Muslims ,not Israel. If Muslims get worked up over Israeli proclimations and turn to war because of it , that only shows their lack of self control and foresight, but we both know that isn't the real reason for the war anyway .

    Christians are massacred and treated poorly throughout the Muslim world from Morocco to Indonesia , by way of Pakistan and all points inbetween . What Israel does or doesnt do will have zero effect on Muslim head choppers killing Christians. Just look to Indonesia and their occupation and masscre of Christian Papua to the tune of 500,000 + killed. Lastly the 480,000 figure in Syria was given by a previous commenter that I was responding to . Good day .

    Well there is no doubt that you are right about the bloodthirstiness of all too many Muslims. Good day sir.

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  143. Moi says:
    @The Alarmist
    As I said, the UN only put a veneer on what was already there. In fact, the UN proposed the original two-state solution, and the Israelis accepted it; it was the Arab states of the region that rejected it. The Palestinians never factor that into their complaints, and they've never grasped that they are not welcome in any of the surrounding Arab states, much less why, which is because they are PITA.

    Yeah, the UNGA gave 55 percent of the land to a people who were a minority population (the Jews). Would you accept such a deal? BTW, the UNGA has no right under any law to give away another people’s land without their consent.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/check-msnbcs-palestinian/

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    You miss the point: The UN had nothing to give that was not already taken.
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  144. Ivan says:
    @Talha
    Thanks Ivan,

    But I advise you not to whitewash the long, bloody history of Islamic conquest and terror.
     
    No whitewashing. Because the conquest was so long and varied, one has to look at the details. Some conquests were extremely brutal and bloody and some were as clean as conquests can get. Any of the rulers and armies that violated sacred law in prosecuting wars will stand up for judgement before God for their crimes. I will certainly not defend their actions.

    Our exemplars are the Rashidun in administration and on the field of battle - from their conduct do we derive rules of conduct; everyone else is judged by their standard. Most Muslim rulers historically have fallen short, way short.

    My point has been that it is hardly the case that Muslims have been the only ones on Earth with a record of bloody conquest, a cursory look at human history will prove that out (we just happened to be more successful than others for a long time, but - as I've pointed out - we have had our butts routinely handed to us on the battlefield since around the 17th century).

    The other problem I have is that people talk about the pre-modern world as if it was some kumbayyah playground where everyone followed nice rules and were the equivalent of Sweden in foreign policy. I have news for them, even Sweden can't live up to that historically and had an empire. Trying to apply our norms and assumptions to the past is ahistoric and juvenile. Anybody who does this has not read books by serious military historians.

    Now that was all before our current international norms that came into play in the aftermath of WW2. All nations are signatories to these rules and should abide by them as per rules of non-aggression.

    Peace.

    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody. The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols, and in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness and slavery. And it is difficult for me who is familiar with the conditions of non-Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan to give much credence to protestations of goodwill (though not from you of course). If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ivan,

    You seem to be engaging in a respectable manner so...

    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody.
     
    All conquests are bloody, that is not the question; the question is the manner in which they are. Waging war with armies on open plains is one thing and respectable - pillaging and leveling cities to the ground is another altogether.

    The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols
     
    Islam has a long record for sure, but if you are going to posit something like this, then you need to provide evidence. Preferably respectable, academic sources. I already cited the site necrometrics which shows that Muslims did have some pretty bloody episodes according to body count. Tamerlane and the deplorable slave trade make a showing, but where else are Muslims in the top tier? I believe the Muslim conquest of India should probably be in the top 20 at around 13 million. Keep in mind the Taipeng Rebellion was a Christian one. Necrometrics cites all its sources and weighs the numbers between them - it's all very transparent.

    Some conquests were fairly bloody - the Turkic Muslims seemed to have a penchant for this and were known to pillage a city after victory. Tamelrane was particularly sanguinary in his conquests - erecting towers of skulls and what not.

    The Rashidun were the ones that set our example; they conquered the territory which forms the core lands of Islam - from North Africa through Transoxiana. They were fierce on the battlefield - as one scholar of history stated; "Christian, Zoroastrian Persian, Jewish, and Muslim sources are all in full
    agreement that the armies of Islam conquered and with magnificent brutality." That same scholar points out certain historical points; "Several accounts exist of Nestorian and Monophysite bishops actually encouraging their congregations to submit to—or even embrace—political rule of the Muslims because they knew that Muslims would necessarily be more tolerant to their faith than their former Byzantine masters who insisted, under persecution, on Chalcedonian orthodoxy....It is well known that the early Islamic armies and navies were staffed by a large number of professing Christians. The first 'Islamic' navy, in fact, to take on the Byzantines was made up almost entirely of professing Christians from the Levant."
    http://visionandvalues.org/docs/abused/Graham.pdf?dcdd03

    Keep in mind that brutality was mostly around open plains where the Byzantines and Sassanids (stupidly) met the Arabs in open combat:
    “For the majority of seventh-century Syriac Christians, the most involved geoploitical changes came not with the Islamic Conquests of the 630s but from the Byzantine-Persian wars from 602 to 628, which were much more destructive than the Islamic conquests. With a few notable exceptions, during the Islamic conquests the majority of sustained military engagements took place in the countryside, minimizing civilian casualties. Most cities capitlulated to Arab forces without prolonged siege. Material evidence of the Islamic conquests is minimal, and the conquests did not leave the type of destruction layers associated with much more devastating invasions. Instead, inscriptional evidence witnessed continual church occupation and even new construction throughout the period.”
    Envisioning Islam: Syriac Christians and the Early Muslim World

    And bringing it back to the topic at hand - why people in the West seem to not understand the more nuanced view Eastern Christians (often those in Palestine) have regarding their shared history with Muslims. This why the Syrian Orthodox Church can say:
    "The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church."
    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    Thus having read enough by serious historians (including military historians) on the subject; it is very difficult to take your claim at face value. It was not utopia by any means, but neither was it the hell that some people like to paint it to be. This is a fairly judicious look at the mutual history by a Syriac Christian historian:
    http://www.syriacstudies.com/2013/07/09/christians-and-jews-under-islam-najib-saliba-phd/

    in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness
     
    This is opinion posited as fact. The problem here is that Persia flourished after she converted to Islam. See how many famous Persian physicians, scientists or astronomers came during the Sassanid era:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-modern_Iranian_scientists_and_scholars

    Why would Sassanid Persians have been studying the works of the Byzantine Greeks - who were their civilizational rivals? Much of the Muslim world is backward materially compared to Europe and other places now, but that wasn't always the case.

    and slavery
     
    Everyone brought slavery where they conquered in the pre-modern world. European Christians were enslaving Slavs and others (even other Christians) and selling them to Muslims hand-over-fist. The Church made some edicts to regulate it to make it more humane - money was too good to pass up:
    https://medium.com/the-history-buff/slavery-in-medieval-italy-cb189ae45933

    Have you read about the Spanish and Portuguese conquests of South America? Again, you are making it seem like Islam is the only guilty party - this doesn't jive with historical fact.

    If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.
     
    There is goodwill among a large part of the populace - if there wasn't then a 2% population would have been eaten alive ages ago. Unfortunately, the part of the population that is intent on bullying them is too large for comfort and needs to repent and change their ways. It is my hope, we can return Muslims into suppressing the extremism to where we can have communities where non-Muslim rights are respected.

    Peace.
    , @Talha
    Sorry for the "peace" in the last one - misfire - old habits die hard.
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  145. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Too many anonymous, and I’m sorry about that. I am no troll, let alone hasbara. I just dislike ‘perceptions’ that Christianity and Islam are morally on par, just ‘opinions’, and went to the root of the matter. But it can be boring to other commenters interested in current affairs, not fair to Talha because of the anonymity, and to the author, who is a fine journalist, always pointing to the evolving scenarios. I do apologize.

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  146. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Kiza
    Talha, I have been commenting on unz since it started and I have been reading your comments for a while without engaging in a debate. As a Christian, I did agree with you very often, but your comments are becoming too fervent and too partisan. For example, other commenters lay it out for you that things are not the way you say, but you poo-pah and continue on with your pro-Sunni tirades.

    Reduce the fervor a notch and drop completely your provocative and corny sign-off "Peace" and you will become a decent and pleasant commenter to read. BTW, I am old enough to understand that those who talk too much of peace are the ones who wage war to get peace. Otherwise, you will be just another a-hole on a mission that the comments sections to this zine is full of, which made me become a casual visitor. There are other places where the fervor is lower and the intellectual debate is higher.

    @ which made me become a casual visitor. There are other places where the fervor is lower and the intellectual debate is higher.

    Would you kindly point me towards those? Sane, polite and honest would be wonderful.

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    Unfortunately, the point is exactly not to share such sites with the general population, just because that would make the job of their moderators that much harder. Yes, they do delete comments which are too propagandistic and comments which dilute and pollute, thus they are Hasbara free.

    Sane yes, polite and honest comments not always. How can a good debate remain always polite and who is honest enough to be the judge of what is honest? But once one cuts out the professionals and the feverish extremists from the debate, the intellectual level of the debate automatically goes higher.

    Naturally, the main downside of such websites is their cost - their moderators have to keep taking out garbage long enough to discourage the professionals and the extremists from frequenting them. The moderators then have no time to do anything else then write articles and take out garbage.

    unz.com cannot be a moderated website, thus my proposals to Mr Unz were:
    1) allow article owners to moderate (delete), some will do a good job, some will delete anyone who disagrees and some will not do at all,
    2) limit the number of posts to five per article per handle,
    3) ban proxies to discourage multiple handles and so on.

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  147. @Moi
    Yeah, the UNGA gave 55 percent of the land to a people who were a minority population (the Jews). Would you accept such a deal? BTW, the UNGA has no right under any law to give away another people's land without their consent.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/check-msnbcs-palestinian/

    You miss the point: The UN had nothing to give that was not already taken.

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    Righto! That logic justifies the holocaust. Thanks.
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  148. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Israel Shamir
    This discussion has to be read to be believed. A few zionist trolls (usually anonymous or nameless) take the discussion completely astray, as they do every time when the subject does not suit them. This article is not about Christians vs Muslims. Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel. The question of Muslim law in Pakistan is irrelevant to discussion; so is the question of Prophet Muhammad's inspiration. Equally irrelevant is the Black vs White - there are no BW in the Middle East.
    In the result of these trolls' activity, almost everybody speaks off topic. If it were Facebook, I'd delete many comments to trim the discussion to topic. Here, the trolls won. They mis-presented Jerusalem as Christian vs Muslim subject and carried us away into silly subject of Muhammad and his followers.
    Webb is another troll, an obsessed racialist.
    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?

    Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel

    Even the eminent and supremely peaceful Tahla admits that this is not the truth . You claim to be a Christian but spend all your time writing from an Islam firster perspective and spewing the most base takkiyah and kitman in every article.

    The relevant question is why a supposed Orthodox Christian prefers to ignore genocide against Christians in occupied Papua , Iraq ,Syria , Sudan and instead write takkiya articles ?? What kind of Christian cares about a few thousand Muslims being killed in Israel , when these same muslims massacre and genocide and rape Christians all around the world . Millions of Christians have been killed by Islamic regimes in the recent past up until today and Muslim individuals target Christians with terrorism daily? Are you really a Christian ?? doubt it.

    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?

    Oh the leftist SJW comes out of hiding and decides he wants to stifle free speech and discussion . Why am I not surprised ? Maybe saying anything negative about Mohamad should be off limits too . Saying something negative about gays and trannies too . Wow I knew you were a full blown takkiya troll but now you exposed yourself as a SJW activist as well . The same things you whine about as regards to Jews is true about yourself as well Shamir !!!!!! Read something I don’t like , SHUT IT DOWN !!!!! Every . Single. Time. LoLoLoL

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Please answer the following two questions related to the topic so we can tell you have a respectable moral compass:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people’s lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should – in good faith – abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?
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  149. Che Guava says:
    @Israel Shamir
    Dear Che, wishing you luck with this dental operation. Indeed it is very unpleasant thing. My advice: immediately implant a new tooth on its place. Without teeth, one gets morbid thoughts. I noticed it has a great psychological impact as if a man without teeth is doomed for speedy death.

    Dear Mr. Shamir.

    Thank you,

    The dentist said it looks like only gum problem, so wait until next year. I am thinking the dentist who was brutally extracting a molar three or so years ago, telling me root-canal was impossible is a lazy fool, you are right, the one time I had root-canal torture, ten or so years ago, it was worth the pain and discomfort, a good clinic, but closed now, it is feeling like a natural tooth soon after the procedure.

    Background music, Lennon and Ono’s overplayed Christmas song. Ono was hated here for a long time, except for some older people who liked some of her art (and, if one is to looking at her earlier work in physical media, some of it is very good).

    If one is to looking at her performance art, well, I am not liking the ‘look at me’ factor of almost all of performance art, but if that former Yugoslavia Jewish lady (Abramovic, I think) is any good (i don’t), anything she is doing is in the shadow of Ono’s Cut Piece, many years earlier.

    Since Ono was also a cutter long before it was teen fashion (as moi, and my currently estranged closest friend (Marianite) also were), it has some resonance. … but

    A BGM pop version of ‘Gloria, in Excelcis Deo’ is floating about at one convenience chain this year. Ugly. I love to sing the real one. That is truly sacrilege.

    Excuse the digressions (coherent but wandering, I think, stopping there, should writing an essay), thank you for your kind reply, good advice, and, as ever, good and thought-provoking article.

    Che.

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  150. Che Guava says:
    @RobinG
    Mr. Guava, you are having one tooth extracted, not all, right? And by largest molar, do you mean the one farthest back in your mouth? I personally know several people who have lost that tooth, and they are unanimous in saying that they don't miss it. [[No morbid thoughts, lol.]]

    Most dentists concur this tooth is no big deal. Of course, all things aren't equal and everybody has different variables. Good luck.

    No, you are confusing the ones at the back (wisdom teeth in English) with the molars, I was already to have all four of the former extracted by a military dentist, years ago, in my brief military (2 yr.) career. The dentist even was putting his knee on my chest, for leverage, on at least one.

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  151. Talha says:
    @Kiza
    As I said, I mostly like your comments and I have learned quite a bit about Sunni Islam from them, thank you. But I did feel, maybe I misunderstood, that you do not accept for example, that the Christians in Pakistan are oppressed and not only by the extremists.

    In general, one wins more arguments when one keeps one’s cool.

    Finally, regarding your sign off, I think that you mean well, most of us here truly want peace (if US could somehow disappear, 90% of war on the planet would disappear with it, especially the pro-Zionist wars). But at least to me it is annoying to scroll down the comments and see so many repeats of the word, when there is so little of it in life. It is as if you were dangling the juiciest carrot in front of the nose of this poor donkey who can never reach it and eat it.

    Hey Kiza,

    But I did feel, maybe I misunderstood, that you do not accept for example, that the Christians in Pakistan are oppressed and not only by the extremists.

    No – I accept that they are oppressed (unfortunately). This is by the extremists and also by a general air of extremism that has crept through society over the years. Growing up I never knew who the Pakistani Christians were because people like my parents treated them as they would any other person. I was told years later that so-and-so and so-and-so was a Christian. There is no doubt that there is vigilante violence against them and that things like blasphemy laws are used unfairly against them by people who have personal scores to settle. Of this, I have little doubt. I also know that many top-level scholars have been pushing back against this.

    Now – legally (at least on paper), they have plenty of rights and if the populace was to adhere to those rules, they should have no problems. Of course, they do not have certain rights like the ability to proselytize or marry Muslim women, but these are not restrictions we feel are oppressive. If I in the US was blocked from proselytizing or marrying non-Muslim women, I could certainly point out that I was not being treated equally, but I don’t consider that oppression.

    In general, one wins more arguments when one keeps one’s cool.

    No doubt about this.

    Finally, regarding your sign off

    I’ll take this into consideration. If I am having a friendly exchange with someone, I’ll use it. If I’m debating someone, I won’t since it may be seen as “provocative” as you pointed out.

    Thanks much for the suggestions! :)

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  152. Talha says:
    @anon

    Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel
     
    Even the eminent and supremely peaceful Tahla admits that this is not the truth . You claim to be a Christian but spend all your time writing from an Islam firster perspective and spewing the most base takkiyah and kitman in every article.

    The relevant question is why a supposed Orthodox Christian prefers to ignore genocide against Christians in occupied Papua , Iraq ,Syria , Sudan and instead write takkiya articles ?? What kind of Christian cares about a few thousand Muslims being killed in Israel , when these same muslims massacre and genocide and rape Christians all around the world . Millions of Christians have been killed by Islamic regimes in the recent past up until today and Muslim individuals target Christians with terrorism daily? Are you really a Christian ?? doubt it.


    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?
     
    Oh the leftist SJW comes out of hiding and decides he wants to stifle free speech and discussion . Why am I not surprised ? Maybe saying anything negative about Mohamad should be off limits too . Saying something negative about gays and trannies too . Wow I knew you were a full blown takkiya troll but now you exposed yourself as a SJW activist as well . The same things you whine about as regards to Jews is true about yourself as well Shamir !!!!!! Read something I don't like , SHUT IT DOWN !!!!! Every . Single. Time. LoLoLoL

    Please answer the following two questions related to the topic so we can tell you have a respectable moral compass:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people’s lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should – in good faith – abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Talha I don't give any credence to your sophistry or to your lying morality . Here is your previous comment in response to the fact that Christians are second class citizens without equal rights in Muslim lands and are prohibited to do many things that Muslims are allowed to do , again this is apartheid and with your previous comment your support it :
    Talha said " If you mean that non-Muslims don’t have exact equal rights in all aspects in Muslim lands, then yes – guilty as charged. We also don’t let their men marry our women.

    So spare me your morality , actually you have none . Like many posters here have pointed out , your use of the word " peace " to end all your correspondence is disingenuous . The fact that you supposedly care about these conflicts of Muslims occupying Christian lands and commiting genocide but spend all your time whining about Israel and never mentioning any of these 1000x worse conflicts tells that you are completely disingenuous with your questions and answers.

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  153. Che Guava says:
    @Talha

    Christ vs. Muhamad
     
    No - I didn't confuse a thing.

    How many murders (military or not) did Muhammad commit?
     
    Zero.

    If you are talking how many people died in the wars to unite Arabia - estimates have been around 2000 - 3000 or so.

    And Christ?
     
    Did he command an army? Was he in charge of fighting the enemies of his people?

    What about raids?
     
    Same questions as above.

    What about 9 year old wives?
     
    Did Christ even marry? But let's say he did - do you really think that he would have married some 30 year-old? Have you even read about marriage norms among Jews in first century Palestine:
    "To understand these statements, we must remember that in the InterTestamental and early rabbinic age, pre-puberty marriage was generally permitted. In fact rabbis seriously debated whether bloodstains found after the wedding night in nuptial bed of a minor, i.e. a ‘virgin in respect of menstruation’, marked her first period or the consummation of the marriage."
    The Changing Face of Jesus

    Here is the guy that wrote that book:
    "Geza Vermes, who has died aged 88, was one of the world's leading authorities on the origins of Christianity."
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/may/14/geza-vermes

    "In the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, marriage is considered the natural state for men and women, and although there are certainly instances where Jewish men (and rarely, Jewish women) are not married, this is the exception rather than norm. Most women marry quite young, usually soon after the onset of menstruation, which of course, heralds fertility. Men typically marry later (in their twenties, or even thirties) and this most men are older than their wives."
    What the Bible Really Tells Us: The Essential Guide to Biblical Literacy

    The Son of Mary (pbuh) knew men were marrying off their daughters this young to older men and consummation was usually happening right at puberty, why didn't he condemn it? The Catholics certainly didn't see a problem with it for centuries:
    "Betrothals [sponsalia] require seven full years in the contracting parties. The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females, under penalty of nullity (unless natural puberty supplies the want of years)."
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm

    Puberty has always been the pre-modern marker for marriage, and it very naturally occurs in some nine year olds (especially in a time when the average lifespan was less than 35 years):
    "Your first menstrual period is called menarche (say "MEN-ar-kee"). It usually starts sometime between ages 11 and 14. But it can happen as early as age 9 or as late as 15."
    https://www.webmd.com/children/tc/menarche-topic-overview#1

    "Precocious puberty (PP) is defined as the development of pubertal changes, at an age younger than the accepted lower limits for age of onset of puberty, namely, before age 8 years in girls and 9 years in boys. "
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3005651/

    Torturing prisoners?
     
    Nonsense - this along with a bunch of other claims has no solid evidence. Bring me something that is sourced in something we actually derive rulings from. The Seerah and Maghazi literature doesn't reach that level - some of it is corroborated by other sources, other stuff is basically apocrypha; like stories of young Jesus (pbuh) causing the death of children and blinding their parents by cursing them:
    http://gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

    I don't expect Christians to answer questions about these things nor do I expect to answer questions about something I have zero obligation to consider even occurred. You can believe it as you like.

    And are Christ and Muhammad the exemplary (normative) lives to follow if you are a believer?
     
    I'm totally fine if Christians want to disband their navies, armies, etc. and divorce their wives and live celibate lives. Also, if cornered in a fight, make sure to turn the other cheek - that'll teach 'em! That'll teach 'em good!

    Peace.

    Talha.

    In this post, again, you are to prove yourself a liar.

    Early Islam, under Mo, rapine, theft, murder. You deny it. as said before, the only comparable figure is Joseph Smith, Mormon founder, a con-artist in the same way as Mo.

    Readers of this site should reading your post that I am replying to in this thread, also claims of many Islamic sect people, slaves of Zionism, it is hideous (and your reply to me is making you never worthy of a reply again).

    … and then you claim support from Shia. While the site is swarming with single-use accnunts, and morons to making an account, to only posting as ‘Anon’ or some variant, i would urge the mods to just automatically banning them if they are posting as some variant of ‘Anon’ with no previous post.

    Also to recommending to non-muslim readers, check Talha’s history of posts, generally faking it, but ugly reality of thought is frequent, this thread as only one example.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Che,

    Feel free to ignore me by all means.

    You deny it.
     
    Correct - there was no rape, theft or murder. There was war, but that's a different subject.

    is making you never worthy of a reply again
     
    One can hope, right?

    would urge the mods to just automatically banning them if they are posting as some variant of ‘Anon’ with no previous post
     
    Excellent suggestion!

    check Talha’s history of posts
     
    Please do - I welcome the scrutiny!
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  154. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    Please answer the following two questions related to the topic so we can tell you have a respectable moral compass:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people’s lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should – in good faith – abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    Talha I don’t give any credence to your sophistry or to your lying morality . Here is your previous comment in response to the fact that Christians are second class citizens without equal rights in Muslim lands and are prohibited to do many things that Muslims are allowed to do , again this is apartheid and with your previous comment your support it :
    Talha said ” If you mean that non-Muslims don’t have exact equal rights in all aspects in Muslim lands, then yes – guilty as charged. We also don’t let their men marry our women.

    So spare me your morality , actually you have none . Like many posters here have pointed out , your use of the word ” peace ” to end all your correspondence is disingenuous . The fact that you supposedly care about these conflicts of Muslims occupying Christian lands and commiting genocide but spend all your time whining about Israel and never mentioning any of these 1000x worse conflicts tells that you are completely disingenuous with your questions and answers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    your sophistry or to your lying morality
     
    Wow - I just called a taqiyyah Muzzie by an obvious hasbara guy - hmmm...do you think that actually decreases my credibility at UNZ? Really?

    that Christians are second class citizens without equal rights in Muslim lands and are prohibited to do many things that Muslims are allowed to do
     
    Correct, they are not allowed certain things; for instance they aren't allowed to hold office of head of state or chief general of the armies, etc. We aren't going to budge on this - non-Muslim countries are welcome to put into place reciprocal policies if it makes them feel better; it would be hypocritical of someone like me to complain from a principled perspective. Speaking of which...

    Again, please answer the following questions - yes or no:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people’s lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should – in good faith – abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    I understand your hesitancy at the first one - you'd likely lose the West Bank, but the second one seems fairly straight forward - please show everyone that you have a modicum of decency towards targeted and indiscriminate killings of innocents (including women and children) done by Israel. I have denounced those done by Muslims 3 times now. People are watching...

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  155. Talha says:
    @Ivan
    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody. The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols, and in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness and slavery. And it is difficult for me who is familiar with the conditions of non-Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan to give much credence to protestations of goodwill (though not from you of course). If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.

    Hey Ivan,

    You seem to be engaging in a respectable manner so…

    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody.

    All conquests are bloody, that is not the question; the question is the manner in which they are. Waging war with armies on open plains is one thing and respectable – pillaging and leveling cities to the ground is another altogether.

    The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols

    Islam has a long record for sure, but if you are going to posit something like this, then you need to provide evidence. Preferably respectable, academic sources. I already cited the site necrometrics which shows that Muslims did have some pretty bloody episodes according to body count. Tamerlane and the deplorable slave trade make a showing, but where else are Muslims in the top tier? I believe the Muslim conquest of India should probably be in the top 20 at around 13 million. Keep in mind the Taipeng Rebellion was a Christian one. Necrometrics cites all its sources and weighs the numbers between them – it’s all very transparent.

    Some conquests were fairly bloody – the Turkic Muslims seemed to have a penchant for this and were known to pillage a city after victory. Tamelrane was particularly sanguinary in his conquests – erecting towers of skulls and what not.

    The Rashidun were the ones that set our example; they conquered the territory which forms the core lands of Islam – from North Africa through Transoxiana. They were fierce on the battlefield – as one scholar of history stated; “Christian, Zoroastrian Persian, Jewish, and Muslim sources are all in full
    agreement that the armies of Islam conquered and with magnificent brutality.” That same scholar points out certain historical points; “Several accounts exist of Nestorian and Monophysite bishops actually encouraging their congregations to submit to—or even embrace—political rule of the Muslims because they knew that Muslims would necessarily be more tolerant to their faith than their former Byzantine masters who insisted, under persecution, on Chalcedonian orthodoxy….It is well known that the early Islamic armies and navies were staffed by a large number of professing Christians. The first ‘Islamic’ navy, in fact, to take on the Byzantines was made up almost entirely of professing Christians from the Levant.”

    http://visionandvalues.org/docs/abused/Graham.pdf?dcdd03

    Keep in mind that brutality was mostly around open plains where the Byzantines and Sassanids (stupidly) met the Arabs in open combat:
    “For the majority of seventh-century Syriac Christians, the most involved geoploitical changes came not with the Islamic Conquests of the 630s but from the Byzantine-Persian wars from 602 to 628, which were much more destructive than the Islamic conquests. With a few notable exceptions, during the Islamic conquests the majority of sustained military engagements took place in the countryside, minimizing civilian casualties. Most cities capitlulated to Arab forces without prolonged siege. Material evidence of the Islamic conquests is minimal, and the conquests did not leave the type of destruction layers associated with much more devastating invasions. Instead, inscriptional evidence witnessed continual church occupation and even new construction throughout the period.”
    Envisioning Islam: Syriac Christians and the Early Muslim World

    And bringing it back to the topic at hand – why people in the West seem to not understand the more nuanced view Eastern Christians (often those in Palestine) have regarding their shared history with Muslims. This why the Syrian Orthodox Church can say:
    “The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church.”

    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    Thus having read enough by serious historians (including military historians) on the subject; it is very difficult to take your claim at face value. It was not utopia by any means, but neither was it the hell that some people like to paint it to be. This is a fairly judicious look at the mutual history by a Syriac Christian historian:

    http://www.syriacstudies.com/2013/07/09/christians-and-jews-under-islam-najib-saliba-phd/

    in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness

    This is opinion posited as fact. The problem here is that Persia flourished after she converted to Islam. See how many famous Persian physicians, scientists or astronomers came during the Sassanid era:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-modern_Iranian_scientists_and_scholars

    Why would Sassanid Persians have been studying the works of the Byzantine Greeks – who were their civilizational rivals? Much of the Muslim world is backward materially compared to Europe and other places now, but that wasn’t always the case.

    and slavery

    Everyone brought slavery where they conquered in the pre-modern world. European Christians were enslaving Slavs and others (even other Christians) and selling them to Muslims hand-over-fist. The Church made some edicts to regulate it to make it more humane – money was too good to pass up:

    https://medium.com/the-history-buff/slavery-in-medieval-italy-cb189ae45933

    Have you read about the Spanish and Portuguese conquests of South America? Again, you are making it seem like Islam is the only guilty party – this doesn’t jive with historical fact.

    If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.

    There is goodwill among a large part of the populace – if there wasn’t then a 2% population would have been eaten alive ages ago. Unfortunately, the part of the population that is intent on bullying them is too large for comfort and needs to repent and change their ways. It is my hope, we can return Muslims into suppressing the extremism to where we can have communities where non-Muslim rights are respected.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Everyone brought slavery where they conquered in the pre-modern world
     
    Except everyone else has left the pre-modern world and left slavery behind as well . Actually not everyone. Muslims still enjoy buying and selling abds ( slave in Arabic and also a colloquial way for Muslims to refer to blacks, how nice ). Here is an article about modern slavery in the Islamic Republic of Sudan.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/slavery-africa_b_3975881.html
    *Many of the slaves were Christians taken north and forced to convert to Islam or die. Their faces were branded*
    *According to Deng about 4 million innocent men, women and children were slaughtered from 1955 to 2005 in South Sudan. Seven million were ethnically cleansed and they became the largest refugee group since World War II.*

    Slavery and child rape in the Islamic Republic of Mauritania
    http://theweek.com/articles/584654/why-mauritania-highest-percentage-slaves-world


    Slave markets in Libya
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-public-slave-auctions-un-migration

    Tell me agian why you whine about Israel , Talha ? Seems you could do much more good for the world if you cleaned up your own society which as you even can admit is 1000X times worse than anything done by Israel .

    , @attilathehen
    "Much of the Muslim world is backward materially compared to Europe and other places now, but that wasn’t always the case." Why of course Talha. Most Muslims are black/Asians. Mohammed (piss be upon him) was a Caucasian Arab. But once the Muslims started taking over North Africa, they brought in black slaves and through miscegenation destroyed the original Caucasian peoples. You, as a Paki, (average Paki IQ 84) are an Asian, second tier race. But, yes, you are brighter specimen.

    As for Trump declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital. This is a very good thing. It sticks it to the Muslims and cuck poop Frannie. Now Israel will control the holy sites. I've been to Jerusalem and visited the Dome of the Rock. The only thing it needs is a cross on top.

    Once again, a religion class reminder - Islam is a Christian heresy.

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  156. Che Guava says:
    @Anon
    Che:
    Best of luck, and I hope you find a beautiful, congenial Mass to go to. Christ is there. This is fragment of a beautiful poem by Therese of Avila for just such occasions, though the translation is much less lyrical than the original:

    That nothing disturb you,
    That nothing frighten you,
    Everything passes,
    God does not change.
    Patience will everything obtain.
    Whoever has God
    is lacking for nothing.
    Alone God is enough.


    The poem may be based on Jesus' exhortation to His disciples in John 14: "Let not your hearts be troubled neither let them be afraid." This is the original, in her handwriting:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iAxjpLcHWAc/UJrKlZ-oGjI/AAAAAAAAAyY/s9czrTXyu9w/s1600/Santa+Teresa.jpg

    Merry Christmas.

    Thank you,

    Read More
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  157. Talha says:
    @Che Guava
    Talha.

    In this post, again, you are to prove yourself a liar.

    Early Islam, under Mo, rapine, theft, murder. You deny it. as said before, the only comparable figure is Joseph Smith, Mormon founder, a con-artist in the same way as Mo.

    Readers of this site should reading your post that I am replying to in this thread, also claims of many Islamic sect people, slaves of Zionism, it is hideous (and your reply to me is making you never worthy of a reply again).

    ... and then you claim support from Shia. While the site is swarming with single-use accnunts, and morons to making an account, to only posting as 'Anon' or some variant, i would urge the mods to just automatically banning them if they are posting as some variant of 'Anon' with no previous post.

    Also to recommending to non-muslim readers, check Talha's history of posts, generally faking it, but ugly reality of thought is frequent, this thread as only one example.

    Hey Che,

    Feel free to ignore me by all means.

    You deny it.

    Correct – there was no rape, theft or murder. There was war, but that’s a different subject.

    is making you never worthy of a reply again

    One can hope, right?

    would urge the mods to just automatically banning them if they are posting as some variant of ‘Anon’ with no previous post

    Excellent suggestion!

    check Talha’s history of posts

    Please do – I welcome the scrutiny!

    Read More
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  158. Kiza says:
    @Anon
    @ which made me become a casual visitor. There are other places where the fervor is lower and the intellectual debate is higher.

    Would you kindly point me towards those? Sane, polite and honest would be wonderful.

    Unfortunately, the point is exactly not to share such sites with the general population, just because that would make the job of their moderators that much harder. Yes, they do delete comments which are too propagandistic and comments which dilute and pollute, thus they are Hasbara free.

    Sane yes, polite and honest comments not always. How can a good debate remain always polite and who is honest enough to be the judge of what is honest? But once one cuts out the professionals and the feverish extremists from the debate, the intellectual level of the debate automatically goes higher.

    Naturally, the main downside of such websites is their cost – their moderators have to keep taking out garbage long enough to discourage the professionals and the extremists from frequenting them. The moderators then have no time to do anything else then write articles and take out garbage.

    unz.com cannot be a moderated website, thus my proposals to Mr Unz were:
    1) allow article owners to moderate (delete), some will do a good job, some will delete anyone who disagrees and some will not do at all,
    2) limit the number of posts to five per article per handle,
    3) ban proxies to discourage multiple handles and so on.

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Kiza,

    Ron has already banned -and removed- proxies (multiple handles) and wrote about how surprisingly many he discovered.

    You make no comment on the anonymous poster policy. Previously, I've been lambasted for asking Ron to end anonymous posts. I wonder if Talha and Che will now get the same flak.

    As somebody said earlier, the real reason to do that (instead of using a pseudonym) is to change position randomly without being held accountable. I would add another reason (since this has been confessed to me) -- the ability to post something particularly vile without having their record (the archive) sullied. RSDB claimed the need to shield family and friends, but this excuse is very weak. Surely it's possible to illustrate an argument without giving personal details.

    The UR software is unique in facilitating discussion and debate, but it's somewhat impaired by not knowing who you're speaking to. IDK how many options there (anon, Anon, etc.) but I did it once as an experiment and came up "Anonymous," probably not the only one on that thread.
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  159. Talha says:
    @anon
    Talha I don't give any credence to your sophistry or to your lying morality . Here is your previous comment in response to the fact that Christians are second class citizens without equal rights in Muslim lands and are prohibited to do many things that Muslims are allowed to do , again this is apartheid and with your previous comment your support it :
    Talha said " If you mean that non-Muslims don’t have exact equal rights in all aspects in Muslim lands, then yes – guilty as charged. We also don’t let their men marry our women.

    So spare me your morality , actually you have none . Like many posters here have pointed out , your use of the word " peace " to end all your correspondence is disingenuous . The fact that you supposedly care about these conflicts of Muslims occupying Christian lands and commiting genocide but spend all your time whining about Israel and never mentioning any of these 1000x worse conflicts tells that you are completely disingenuous with your questions and answers.

    your sophistry or to your lying morality

    Wow – I just called a taqiyyah Muzzie by an obvious hasbara guy – hmmm…do you think that actually decreases my credibility at UNZ? Really?

    that Christians are second class citizens without equal rights in Muslim lands and are prohibited to do many things that Muslims are allowed to do

    Correct, they are not allowed certain things; for instance they aren’t allowed to hold office of head of state or chief general of the armies, etc. We aren’t going to budge on this – non-Muslim countries are welcome to put into place reciprocal policies if it makes them feel better; it would be hypocritical of someone like me to complain from a principled perspective. Speaking of which…

    Again, please answer the following questions – yes or no:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people’s lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should – in good faith – abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    I understand your hesitancy at the first one – you’d likely lose the West Bank, but the second one seems fairly straight forward – please show everyone that you have a modicum of decency towards targeted and indiscriminate killings of innocents (including women and children) done by Israel. I have denounced those done by Muslims 3 times now. People are watching…

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    People are watching…
     
    I'm not concerned with who is watching . I can see by your lengthy soliloquies that you are here to attempt to impress people and get attention and approval , but I'm content to state facts . You are in no position to lecture anyone about morality , as you have no morality yourself . You already stated 3 times as well that you support apartheid laws installing Muslims as a superior class in countries under Muslim control .You support the practice of making Christians and other religions second class citizens and gleefully affirm that you support never granting Christians full rights .
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  160. Talha says:
    @Ivan
    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody. The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols, and in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness and slavery. And it is difficult for me who is familiar with the conditions of non-Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan to give much credence to protestations of goodwill (though not from you of course). If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.

    Sorry for the “peace” in the last one – misfire – old habits die hard.

    Read More
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  161. Moi says:
    @The Alarmist
    You miss the point: The UN had nothing to give that was not already taken.

    Righto! That logic justifies the holocaust. Thanks.

    Read More
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  162. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    Hey Ivan,

    You seem to be engaging in a respectable manner so...

    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody.
     
    All conquests are bloody, that is not the question; the question is the manner in which they are. Waging war with armies on open plains is one thing and respectable - pillaging and leveling cities to the ground is another altogether.

    The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols
     
    Islam has a long record for sure, but if you are going to posit something like this, then you need to provide evidence. Preferably respectable, academic sources. I already cited the site necrometrics which shows that Muslims did have some pretty bloody episodes according to body count. Tamerlane and the deplorable slave trade make a showing, but where else are Muslims in the top tier? I believe the Muslim conquest of India should probably be in the top 20 at around 13 million. Keep in mind the Taipeng Rebellion was a Christian one. Necrometrics cites all its sources and weighs the numbers between them - it's all very transparent.

    Some conquests were fairly bloody - the Turkic Muslims seemed to have a penchant for this and were known to pillage a city after victory. Tamelrane was particularly sanguinary in his conquests - erecting towers of skulls and what not.

    The Rashidun were the ones that set our example; they conquered the territory which forms the core lands of Islam - from North Africa through Transoxiana. They were fierce on the battlefield - as one scholar of history stated; "Christian, Zoroastrian Persian, Jewish, and Muslim sources are all in full
    agreement that the armies of Islam conquered and with magnificent brutality." That same scholar points out certain historical points; "Several accounts exist of Nestorian and Monophysite bishops actually encouraging their congregations to submit to—or even embrace—political rule of the Muslims because they knew that Muslims would necessarily be more tolerant to their faith than their former Byzantine masters who insisted, under persecution, on Chalcedonian orthodoxy....It is well known that the early Islamic armies and navies were staffed by a large number of professing Christians. The first 'Islamic' navy, in fact, to take on the Byzantines was made up almost entirely of professing Christians from the Levant."
    http://visionandvalues.org/docs/abused/Graham.pdf?dcdd03

    Keep in mind that brutality was mostly around open plains where the Byzantines and Sassanids (stupidly) met the Arabs in open combat:
    “For the majority of seventh-century Syriac Christians, the most involved geoploitical changes came not with the Islamic Conquests of the 630s but from the Byzantine-Persian wars from 602 to 628, which were much more destructive than the Islamic conquests. With a few notable exceptions, during the Islamic conquests the majority of sustained military engagements took place in the countryside, minimizing civilian casualties. Most cities capitlulated to Arab forces without prolonged siege. Material evidence of the Islamic conquests is minimal, and the conquests did not leave the type of destruction layers associated with much more devastating invasions. Instead, inscriptional evidence witnessed continual church occupation and even new construction throughout the period.”
    Envisioning Islam: Syriac Christians and the Early Muslim World

    And bringing it back to the topic at hand - why people in the West seem to not understand the more nuanced view Eastern Christians (often those in Palestine) have regarding their shared history with Muslims. This why the Syrian Orthodox Church can say:
    "The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church."
    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    Thus having read enough by serious historians (including military historians) on the subject; it is very difficult to take your claim at face value. It was not utopia by any means, but neither was it the hell that some people like to paint it to be. This is a fairly judicious look at the mutual history by a Syriac Christian historian:
    http://www.syriacstudies.com/2013/07/09/christians-and-jews-under-islam-najib-saliba-phd/

    in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness
     
    This is opinion posited as fact. The problem here is that Persia flourished after she converted to Islam. See how many famous Persian physicians, scientists or astronomers came during the Sassanid era:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-modern_Iranian_scientists_and_scholars

    Why would Sassanid Persians have been studying the works of the Byzantine Greeks - who were their civilizational rivals? Much of the Muslim world is backward materially compared to Europe and other places now, but that wasn't always the case.

    and slavery
     
    Everyone brought slavery where they conquered in the pre-modern world. European Christians were enslaving Slavs and others (even other Christians) and selling them to Muslims hand-over-fist. The Church made some edicts to regulate it to make it more humane - money was too good to pass up:
    https://medium.com/the-history-buff/slavery-in-medieval-italy-cb189ae45933

    Have you read about the Spanish and Portuguese conquests of South America? Again, you are making it seem like Islam is the only guilty party - this doesn't jive with historical fact.

    If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.
     
    There is goodwill among a large part of the populace - if there wasn't then a 2% population would have been eaten alive ages ago. Unfortunately, the part of the population that is intent on bullying them is too large for comfort and needs to repent and change their ways. It is my hope, we can return Muslims into suppressing the extremism to where we can have communities where non-Muslim rights are respected.

    Peace.

    Everyone brought slavery where they conquered in the pre-modern world

    Except everyone else has left the pre-modern world and left slavery behind as well . Actually not everyone. Muslims still enjoy buying and selling abds ( slave in Arabic and also a colloquial way for Muslims to refer to blacks, how nice ). Here is an article about modern slavery in the Islamic Republic of Sudan.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/slavery-africa_b_3975881.html
    *Many of the slaves were Christians taken north and forced to convert to Islam or die. Their faces were branded*
    *According to Deng about 4 million innocent men, women and children were slaughtered from 1955 to 2005 in South Sudan. Seven million were ethnically cleansed and they became the largest refugee group since World War II.*

    Slavery and child rape in the Islamic Republic of Mauritania
    http://theweek.com/articles/584654/why-mauritania-highest-percentage-slaves-world

    Slave markets in Libya

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-public-slave-auctions-un-migration

    Tell me agian why you whine about Israel , Talha ? Seems you could do much more good for the world if you cleaned up your own society which as you even can admit is 1000X times worse than anything done by Israel .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yes - slavery should be kept outlawed as all our top Muslim scholars and institutions have made clear. And I already denounced the violence you pointed out that was done by Sudan 3 times - you are beating a dead horse.

    Seems you could do much more good for the world if you cleaned up your own society
     
    That's why I run a youth group for Muslim boys to make sure they are raised the right way and learn the importance of getting guidance from our traditional scholars (and Sufi teachers).

    Amazing! You are literally unwilling to denounce even any targeted killing of women and children done by Israel. You're not even looking for wiggle room like - "I don't mind the killing, but I denounce the rape." Let me ask you something - do you think you are winning this? I know you're trying to get under my skin, but you've literally exposed yourself as an amoral monster. Are you actually working for Israel or against it?

    Another chance:
    I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    Everyone is watching - do Israel proud.
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  163. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    your sophistry or to your lying morality
     
    Wow - I just called a taqiyyah Muzzie by an obvious hasbara guy - hmmm...do you think that actually decreases my credibility at UNZ? Really?

    that Christians are second class citizens without equal rights in Muslim lands and are prohibited to do many things that Muslims are allowed to do
     
    Correct, they are not allowed certain things; for instance they aren't allowed to hold office of head of state or chief general of the armies, etc. We aren't going to budge on this - non-Muslim countries are welcome to put into place reciprocal policies if it makes them feel better; it would be hypocritical of someone like me to complain from a principled perspective. Speaking of which...

    Again, please answer the following questions - yes or no:
    1. I support a UN-brokered end to each of the bloody conflicts you described which involve Muslim nations occupying other people’s lands (keep in mind, many of those are other Muslims). The nations should – in good faith – abide by any UN resolutions that are drafted to end the conflicts in a just and reasonable manner (just as it was done for East Timor and South Sudan). Do you agree the same for Israel and occupied Palestine? Yes or No?
    2. I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    I understand your hesitancy at the first one - you'd likely lose the West Bank, but the second one seems fairly straight forward - please show everyone that you have a modicum of decency towards targeted and indiscriminate killings of innocents (including women and children) done by Israel. I have denounced those done by Muslims 3 times now. People are watching...

    People are watching…

    I’m not concerned with who is watching . I can see by your lengthy soliloquies that you are here to attempt to impress people and get attention and approval , but I’m content to state facts . You are in no position to lecture anyone about morality , as you have no morality yourself . You already stated 3 times as well that you support apartheid laws installing Muslims as a superior class in countries under Muslim control .You support the practice of making Christians and other religions second class citizens and gleefully affirm that you support never granting Christians full rights .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    You are in no position to lecture anyone about morality
     
    Keeping non-Muslims out of top structures of state power and not letting them marry our women is the same as you supporting Israel's targeted and indiscriminate killing of innocents* - got it.

    installing Muslims as a superior class in countries under Muslim control
     
    Guilty as charged - it's usually called democracy - Muslim majorities support laws that keep them at the top of the totem pole. As I said before, if people don't like it, they can draft rules to keep Muslims out of power in their countries - sounds fair to me.

    gleefully affirm that you support never granting Christians full rights
     
    Nothing gleeful about it - just organizing society according to sacred law. Make a Muslim head of state in Israel and then virtue signal. We're waiting.

    *I just called you out on it - here's your chance to say "No way, I don't support that!":
    I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    Still waiting...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Svm8xc1z8

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  164. Talha says:
    @anon

    Everyone brought slavery where they conquered in the pre-modern world
     
    Except everyone else has left the pre-modern world and left slavery behind as well . Actually not everyone. Muslims still enjoy buying and selling abds ( slave in Arabic and also a colloquial way for Muslims to refer to blacks, how nice ). Here is an article about modern slavery in the Islamic Republic of Sudan.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/slavery-africa_b_3975881.html
    *Many of the slaves were Christians taken north and forced to convert to Islam or die. Their faces were branded*
    *According to Deng about 4 million innocent men, women and children were slaughtered from 1955 to 2005 in South Sudan. Seven million were ethnically cleansed and they became the largest refugee group since World War II.*

    Slavery and child rape in the Islamic Republic of Mauritania
    http://theweek.com/articles/584654/why-mauritania-highest-percentage-slaves-world


    Slave markets in Libya
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-public-slave-auctions-un-migration

    Tell me agian why you whine about Israel , Talha ? Seems you could do much more good for the world if you cleaned up your own society which as you even can admit is 1000X times worse than anything done by Israel .

    Yes – slavery should be kept outlawed as all our top Muslim scholars and institutions have made clear. And I already denounced the violence you pointed out that was done by Sudan 3 times – you are beating a dead horse.

    Seems you could do much more good for the world if you cleaned up your own society

    That’s why I run a youth group for Muslim boys to make sure they are raised the right way and learn the importance of getting guidance from our traditional scholars (and Sufi teachers).

    Amazing! You are literally unwilling to denounce even any targeted killing of women and children done by Israel. You’re not even looking for wiggle room like – “I don’t mind the killing, but I denounce the rape.” Let me ask you something – do you think you are winning this? I know you’re trying to get under my skin, but you’ve literally exposed yourself as an amoral monster. Are you actually working for Israel or against it?

    Another chance:
    I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    Everyone is watching – do Israel proud.

    Read More
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  165. Talha says:
    @anon

    People are watching…
     
    I'm not concerned with who is watching . I can see by your lengthy soliloquies that you are here to attempt to impress people and get attention and approval , but I'm content to state facts . You are in no position to lecture anyone about morality , as you have no morality yourself . You already stated 3 times as well that you support apartheid laws installing Muslims as a superior class in countries under Muslim control .You support the practice of making Christians and other religions second class citizens and gleefully affirm that you support never granting Christians full rights .

    You are in no position to lecture anyone about morality

    Keeping non-Muslims out of top structures of state power and not letting them marry our women is the same as you supporting Israel’s targeted and indiscriminate killing of innocents* – got it.

    installing Muslims as a superior class in countries under Muslim control

    Guilty as charged – it’s usually called democracy – Muslim majorities support laws that keep them at the top of the totem pole. As I said before, if people don’t like it, they can draft rules to keep Muslims out of power in their countries – sounds fair to me.

    gleefully affirm that you support never granting Christians full rights

    Nothing gleeful about it – just organizing society according to sacred law. Make a Muslim head of state in Israel and then virtue signal. We’re waiting.

    *I just called you out on it – here’s your chance to say “No way, I don’t support that!”:
    I fully denounce and call for the end of any targeted or indiscriminate violence against innocent, unarmed men, women and children (including rape or torture) that has been inflicted on these occupied populations by the various Muslim nations. Do you do the same for Israel? Yes or No?

    Still waiting…

    Read More
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  166. Che Guava says:
    @Anon
    Che:
    Best of luck, and I hope you find a beautiful, congenial Mass to go to. Christ is there. This is fragment of a beautiful poem by Therese of Avila for just such occasions, though the translation is much less lyrical than the original:

    That nothing disturb you,
    That nothing frighten you,
    Everything passes,
    God does not change.
    Patience will everything obtain.
    Whoever has God
    is lacking for nothing.
    Alone God is enough.


    The poem may be based on Jesus' exhortation to His disciples in John 14: "Let not your hearts be troubled neither let them be afraid." This is the original, in her handwriting:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iAxjpLcHWAc/UJrKlZ-oGjI/AAAAAAAAAyY/s9czrTXyu9w/s1600/Santa+Teresa.jpg

    Merry Christmas.

    Thank you.

    Beautiful poem.

    I am surprised how much of the handwritten words i am able to read (as in understand, not all, but most).

    Also surprised that you are feeling the need to post as anon (although, unlike many others who do, I can’t discern your usual u-name).

    I feel, for an anon, and really, in general , too early for Christmas greetings, unless almost surely not to encountering again before, or too much later.

    So, thinking of Advent.

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  167. Anon-og says:

    Israel Becoming a ‘Refuge for Pedophiles,’ Warns Advocate for Child Sex Abuse Victims
    read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710150

    “It seems to us Israel is increasingly becoming a refuge for pedophiles and alleged pedophiles,” said Waks. “It’s an easy get-out-of-jail card for them.” Waks, who is married with three children, recently moved back to Israel, where he was born and served in the army.

    According to research data he cited, one in five children in Israel experiences sexual abuse.

    “There’s a range of factors that suggest there may be a significantly higher proportion within the ultra-Orthodox community,” said Waks. “I think any closed community would have increased cases, because these cases are silenced. They’re swept under the carpet. Not only that, but in the Haredi community, they don’t even talk about sex, so how can they talk about sexual abuse?”
    read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710150

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    The U.S.A. Department of State was listing Israel as being the major player in human trafficking and other crimes, ten or more years ago. Of course, instant (actually, not instant, must have been some honest people at the Dept of State at the time) withdrawal from the list, but anybody to having experience with Izzies, is knowing that is not the mentality of all, but all too many, most.
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  168. Anon-og says:

    A q&a with Fr. Leonard Feeney M.I.C.M. of the Saint Benedict Center back in 1955 regarding the Jewish agenda of swaying American support towards Israel,

    Q. Under what guise are the Jews trying to win American opinion to their side?
    A. They are portraying Israel as a beleaguered little democracy, America’s one friend in the Middle East, struggling for existence against hordes of Communist-dominated Arab neighbors.

    Q. What will be one of the main objectives of the Jews in America during 1956?
    A. They will be striving, with accelerated fervor, to maneuver America into the role of big brother to the State of Israel, the protector of its interests and the conqueror of its foes.

    Q. Is there no chance that this Jewish scheme will be frustrated?
    A. There is an excellent chance that Americans, weary of fighting fruitless wars, will take the trouble to discover that they are now being invited to do and die for no other purpose than to exalt the Jewish nation — whereupon the Jews are likely to find their boldness met with an unexpectedly formidable reaction.
    or anyone who wonders whether there is provocation for a present-day Catholic Crusade to rescue the Holy Land, we are concluding this issue with a partial list of the atrocities and desecrations which the Jews have committed in Palestine since 1948. (We make no attempt to indicate here the loss in lives and property suffered by the nearly one million Arabs who have been evicted from their ancient homes during the past seven years.)

    The Jews have defiled and destroyed the following Church buildings: the Church of Saint John the Baptist at Am Karim, the Church of the Beatitudes at Capharnaum, the Church of Mensa Christi on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, the Church of Saint Peter at Tiberias, the Cenacle (the place of the Last Supper) at Jerusalem, the Convent of Mary Reparatrix at Jerusalem, the Convent and Hospice of Notre Dame at Jerusalem, the Convent of the Sisters of Saint Ann at Haifa, the Franciscan Convent at Tiberias, the Patriarchal Seminary at Beit-Jala, the Salesian houses at Cremisan, the Sisters’ Convent at Am Karim, the School of the Sisters of Notre Dame de Sion at Katamon, the Sisters’ residence at Capharnaum, the church and rectory at Ikret. Catholic authorities have estimated that the Jews have destroyed Church property in the Holy Land at the rate of more than two million dollars’ worth a year. To enumerate only French Catholic institutions, they have demolished four hospitals, sixteen dispensaries, two hospices, four seminaries, thirty-two schools and orphanages, and seven retreat houses.
    Among the countless other desecrations we might mention, none is more heart-rending than that of Jerusalem’s Church of the Dormition — the magnificent Romanesque shrine to the Mother of God which was pillaged by Israeli soldiers and then turned into a Jewish dance hall for the young men and women of Haganah. It was only after a hundred such incidents that the Apostolic Delegate, Archbishop Hughes, unequivocally charged that there is now in operation a “deliberate Jewish effort to decimate the Arabs and to destroy Christianity in Palestine.”
    https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-december-1955/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon-og
    They are portraying Israel as a beleaguered little democracy, America’s one friend in the Middle East, struggling for existence against hordes of Communist-dominated Arab neighbors.

    The hordes back in 1955 were the communist Arabs but now its the Muslim Arabs lol...

    So does Hasbara dictate that Muslims are intrinsically evil or is it the Arabs or the Iranians or maybe the Germans or is it pretty much anyone who stands in the way of Jews getting their way???? The "deplorables" in America should find comfort in that they are not alone

    , @RobinG
    What should be bracing is that in 1955, Fr. Feeney was making the same naively optimistic argument that so many make here at UR today:

    There is an excellent chance that Americans, weary of fighting fruitless wars, will take the trouble to discover that they are now being invited to do and die for no other purpose than to exalt the Jewish nation — whereupon the Jews are likely to find their boldness met with an unexpectedly formidable reaction.
     
    In truth, the percentage of Americans who make this connection is miniscule, and among those who do, even fewer will allow themselves to articulate it. For example, the church group I belong to, even though they support BDS, refused to post a link to Phil Giraldi's latest article. It speaks largely to the loss of our rights here in the US, and contains nothing anti-Semitic. Nevertheless....

    This is why (and I hope you follow my leap of logic), I believe it's necessary to find a better angle, one that cuts through the various herds of sheep -- most of whom really do believe that Israel is our ally and Russia interfered in our election. My eye is on pedophilia and other forms of blackmail whereby our leadership are manipulated. We got off to a bad start, with Golden Showers, Comet Ping Pong, and other fake news diversions, but things are moving in the right direction. It will take fantastically strong ingredients to make an effective Red Pill.
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  169. RobinG says:
    @Kiza
    Unfortunately, the point is exactly not to share such sites with the general population, just because that would make the job of their moderators that much harder. Yes, they do delete comments which are too propagandistic and comments which dilute and pollute, thus they are Hasbara free.

    Sane yes, polite and honest comments not always. How can a good debate remain always polite and who is honest enough to be the judge of what is honest? But once one cuts out the professionals and the feverish extremists from the debate, the intellectual level of the debate automatically goes higher.

    Naturally, the main downside of such websites is their cost - their moderators have to keep taking out garbage long enough to discourage the professionals and the extremists from frequenting them. The moderators then have no time to do anything else then write articles and take out garbage.

    unz.com cannot be a moderated website, thus my proposals to Mr Unz were:
    1) allow article owners to moderate (delete), some will do a good job, some will delete anyone who disagrees and some will not do at all,
    2) limit the number of posts to five per article per handle,
    3) ban proxies to discourage multiple handles and so on.

    Kiza,

    Ron has already banned -and removed- proxies (multiple handles) and wrote about how surprisingly many he discovered.

    You make no comment on the anonymous poster policy. Previously, I’ve been lambasted for asking Ron to end anonymous posts. I wonder if Talha and Che will now get the same flak.

    As somebody said earlier, the real reason to do that (instead of using a pseudonym) is to change position randomly without being held accountable. I would add another reason (since this has been confessed to me) — the ability to post something particularly vile without having their record (the archive) sullied. RSDB claimed the need to shield family and friends, but this excuse is very weak. Surely it’s possible to illustrate an argument without giving personal details.

    The UR software is unique in facilitating discussion and debate, but it’s somewhat impaired by not knowing who you’re speaking to. IDK how many options there (anon, Anon, etc.) but I did it once as an experiment and came up “Anonymous,” probably not the only one on that thread.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey RobinG,

    Yeah, I'm opposed to the whole anonymous thing (it's very confusing), but hey - it's not my site. So I think I'm going to take some more of Kiza's advice and avoid anonymous posters. Some seem decent - most seem like not worth getting into a debate with...
    https://i.imgflip.com/1tox3z.jpg

    Still amazed the guy refuses to condemn even targeted killings of innocent women and children - incredible!

    Peace.
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  170. Talha says:
    @RobinG
    Kiza,

    Ron has already banned -and removed- proxies (multiple handles) and wrote about how surprisingly many he discovered.

    You make no comment on the anonymous poster policy. Previously, I've been lambasted for asking Ron to end anonymous posts. I wonder if Talha and Che will now get the same flak.

    As somebody said earlier, the real reason to do that (instead of using a pseudonym) is to change position randomly without being held accountable. I would add another reason (since this has been confessed to me) -- the ability to post something particularly vile without having their record (the archive) sullied. RSDB claimed the need to shield family and friends, but this excuse is very weak. Surely it's possible to illustrate an argument without giving personal details.

    The UR software is unique in facilitating discussion and debate, but it's somewhat impaired by not knowing who you're speaking to. IDK how many options there (anon, Anon, etc.) but I did it once as an experiment and came up "Anonymous," probably not the only one on that thread.

    Hey RobinG,

    Yeah, I’m opposed to the whole anonymous thing (it’s very confusing), but hey – it’s not my site. So I think I’m going to take some more of Kiza’s advice and avoid anonymous posters. Some seem decent – most seem like not worth getting into a debate with…

    Still amazed the guy refuses to condemn even targeted killings of innocent women and children – incredible!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    All an0nymous posters are not trolls
    +
    All trolls are not anonymous.

    The cartoon is amusing, but you, Talha, are the one who not only feeds trolls, you lay them a banquet.
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  171. Anon-og says:
    @Anon-og
    A q&a with Fr. Leonard Feeney M.I.C.M. of the Saint Benedict Center back in 1955 regarding the Jewish agenda of swaying American support towards Israel,

    Q. Under what guise are the Jews trying to win American opinion to their side?
    A. They are portraying Israel as a beleaguered little democracy, America’s one friend in the Middle East, struggling for existence against hordes of Communist-dominated Arab neighbors.

    Q. What will be one of the main objectives of the Jews in America during 1956?
    A. They will be striving, with accelerated fervor, to maneuver America into the role of big brother to the State of Israel, the protector of its interests and the conqueror of its foes.

    Q. Is there no chance that this Jewish scheme will be frustrated?
    A. There is an excellent chance that Americans, weary of fighting fruitless wars, will take the trouble to discover that they are now being invited to do and die for no other purpose than to exalt the Jewish nation — whereupon the Jews are likely to find their boldness met with an unexpectedly formidable reaction.
    or anyone who wonders whether there is provocation for a present-day Catholic Crusade to rescue the Holy Land, we are concluding this issue with a partial list of the atrocities and desecrations which the Jews have committed in Palestine since 1948. (We make no attempt to indicate here the loss in lives and property suffered by the nearly one million Arabs who have been evicted from their ancient homes during the past seven years.)

    The Jews have defiled and destroyed the following Church buildings: the Church of Saint John the Baptist at Am Karim, the Church of the Beatitudes at Capharnaum, the Church of Mensa Christi on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, the Church of Saint Peter at Tiberias, the Cenacle (the place of the Last Supper) at Jerusalem, the Convent of Mary Reparatrix at Jerusalem, the Convent and Hospice of Notre Dame at Jerusalem, the Convent of the Sisters of Saint Ann at Haifa, the Franciscan Convent at Tiberias, the Patriarchal Seminary at Beit-Jala, the Salesian houses at Cremisan, the Sisters’ Convent at Am Karim, the School of the Sisters of Notre Dame de Sion at Katamon, the Sisters’ residence at Capharnaum, the church and rectory at Ikret. Catholic authorities have estimated that the Jews have destroyed Church property in the Holy Land at the rate of more than two million dollars’ worth a year. To enumerate only French Catholic institutions, they have demolished four hospitals, sixteen dispensaries, two hospices, four seminaries, thirty-two schools and orphanages, and seven retreat houses.
    Among the countless other desecrations we might mention, none is more heart-rending than that of Jerusalem’s Church of the Dormition — the magnificent Romanesque shrine to the Mother of God which was pillaged by Israeli soldiers and then turned into a Jewish dance hall for the young men and women of Haganah. It was only after a hundred such incidents that the Apostolic Delegate, Archbishop Hughes, unequivocally charged that there is now in operation a “deliberate Jewish effort to decimate the Arabs and to destroy Christianity in Palestine.”
    https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-december-1955/

    They are portraying Israel as a beleaguered little democracy, America’s one friend in the Middle East, struggling for existence against hordes of Communist-dominated Arab neighbors.

    The hordes back in 1955 were the communist Arabs but now its the Muslim Arabs lol…

    So does Hasbara dictate that Muslims are intrinsically evil or is it the Arabs or the Iranians or maybe the Germans or is it pretty much anyone who stands in the way of Jews getting their way???? The “deplorables” in America should find comfort in that they are not alone

    Read More
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  172. Sam Shama says:
    @Israel Shamir
    This discussion has to be read to be believed. A few zionist trolls (usually anonymous or nameless) take the discussion completely astray, as they do every time when the subject does not suit them. This article is not about Christians vs Muslims. Christians and Muslims are equally mistreated by Jews in Palestine/Israel. The question of Muslim law in Pakistan is irrelevant to discussion; so is the question of Prophet Muhammad's inspiration. Equally irrelevant is the Black vs White - there are no BW in the Middle East.
    In the result of these trolls' activity, almost everybody speaks off topic. If it were Facebook, I'd delete many comments to trim the discussion to topic. Here, the trolls won. They mis-presented Jerusalem as Christian vs Muslim subject and carried us away into silly subject of Muhammad and his followers.
    Webb is another troll, an obsessed racialist.
    I shall really ask for the privilege to delete off-topic and Zionist hasbara. Do you agree?

    Hi Israel,
    A generally thought-provoking piece, echoing many of the sentiments one hears in Yerushalayim all the time. Any discussion concerning Yerushalayim is bound to result in a dogfight between Christians, Muslims, and Jews. You’d be delusional to think you could make any difference one way or the other.

    I did spot you delivering dental advice emblazoned in yellow. How charming.

    What was the subject of this piece again?

    Read More
    • Replies: @mcohen
    Thought provoking indeed.but nothing new

    Personally i find the war in yemen more interesting.the flow of african refugees to yemen is a sign of things to come.it is the Achilles heel of arabia and the ballistic missiles will start to increase in pace in 2018.i recently watched a series on african music and it stirred my raw passions.great stuff.most of the west is numb by comparison.who knows what the future will bring.
    The pa and hamas have made a dreadful mistake of assuming that time was on their side.they should take the deal on the table.because it will be a fair one.
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  173. RobinG says:
    @Talha
    Hey RobinG,

    Yeah, I'm opposed to the whole anonymous thing (it's very confusing), but hey - it's not my site. So I think I'm going to take some more of Kiza's advice and avoid anonymous posters. Some seem decent - most seem like not worth getting into a debate with...
    https://i.imgflip.com/1tox3z.jpg

    Still amazed the guy refuses to condemn even targeted killings of innocent women and children - incredible!

    Peace.

    All an0nymous posters are not trolls
    +
    All trolls are not anonymous.

    The cartoon is amusing, but you, Talha, are the one who not only feeds trolls, you lay them a banquet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey RobinG,

    Doh! Reallized that the cartoon said ‘Robin’ - LOL! Oops - was not meant as a personal reference to you. :)

    Yeah - I gotta totally working that, must not feed trolls and try to make sure to stay on topic.

    Peace.
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  174. RobinG says:
    @Anon-og
    A q&a with Fr. Leonard Feeney M.I.C.M. of the Saint Benedict Center back in 1955 regarding the Jewish agenda of swaying American support towards Israel,

    Q. Under what guise are the Jews trying to win American opinion to their side?
    A. They are portraying Israel as a beleaguered little democracy, America’s one friend in the Middle East, struggling for existence against hordes of Communist-dominated Arab neighbors.

    Q. What will be one of the main objectives of the Jews in America during 1956?
    A. They will be striving, with accelerated fervor, to maneuver America into the role of big brother to the State of Israel, the protector of its interests and the conqueror of its foes.

    Q. Is there no chance that this Jewish scheme will be frustrated?
    A. There is an excellent chance that Americans, weary of fighting fruitless wars, will take the trouble to discover that they are now being invited to do and die for no other purpose than to exalt the Jewish nation — whereupon the Jews are likely to find their boldness met with an unexpectedly formidable reaction.
    or anyone who wonders whether there is provocation for a present-day Catholic Crusade to rescue the Holy Land, we are concluding this issue with a partial list of the atrocities and desecrations which the Jews have committed in Palestine since 1948. (We make no attempt to indicate here the loss in lives and property suffered by the nearly one million Arabs who have been evicted from their ancient homes during the past seven years.)

    The Jews have defiled and destroyed the following Church buildings: the Church of Saint John the Baptist at Am Karim, the Church of the Beatitudes at Capharnaum, the Church of Mensa Christi on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, the Church of Saint Peter at Tiberias, the Cenacle (the place of the Last Supper) at Jerusalem, the Convent of Mary Reparatrix at Jerusalem, the Convent and Hospice of Notre Dame at Jerusalem, the Convent of the Sisters of Saint Ann at Haifa, the Franciscan Convent at Tiberias, the Patriarchal Seminary at Beit-Jala, the Salesian houses at Cremisan, the Sisters’ Convent at Am Karim, the School of the Sisters of Notre Dame de Sion at Katamon, the Sisters’ residence at Capharnaum, the church and rectory at Ikret. Catholic authorities have estimated that the Jews have destroyed Church property in the Holy Land at the rate of more than two million dollars’ worth a year. To enumerate only French Catholic institutions, they have demolished four hospitals, sixteen dispensaries, two hospices, four seminaries, thirty-two schools and orphanages, and seven retreat houses.
    Among the countless other desecrations we might mention, none is more heart-rending than that of Jerusalem’s Church of the Dormition — the magnificent Romanesque shrine to the Mother of God which was pillaged by Israeli soldiers and then turned into a Jewish dance hall for the young men and women of Haganah. It was only after a hundred such incidents that the Apostolic Delegate, Archbishop Hughes, unequivocally charged that there is now in operation a “deliberate Jewish effort to decimate the Arabs and to destroy Christianity in Palestine.”
    https://fatherfeeney.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/the-point-december-1955/

    What should be bracing is that in 1955, Fr. Feeney was making the same naively optimistic argument that so many make here at UR today:

    There is an excellent chance that Americans, weary of fighting fruitless wars, will take the trouble to discover that they are now being invited to do and die for no other purpose than to exalt the Jewish nation — whereupon the Jews are likely to find their boldness met with an unexpectedly formidable reaction.

    In truth, the percentage of Americans who make this connection is miniscule, and among those who do, even fewer will allow themselves to articulate it. For example, the church group I belong to, even though they support BDS, refused to post a link to Phil Giraldi’s latest article. It speaks largely to the loss of our rights here in the US, and contains nothing anti-Semitic. Nevertheless….

    This is why (and I hope you follow my leap of logic), I believe it’s necessary to find a better angle, one that cuts through the various herds of sheep — most of whom really do believe that Israel is our ally and Russia interfered in our election. My eye is on pedophilia and other forms of blackmail whereby our leadership are manipulated. We got off to a bad start, with Golden Showers, Comet Ping Pong, and other fake news diversions, but things are moving in the right direction. It will take fantastically strong ingredients to make an effective Red Pill.

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  175. mcohen says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Israel,
    A generally thought-provoking piece, echoing many of the sentiments one hears in Yerushalayim all the time. Any discussion concerning Yerushalayim is bound to result in a dogfight between Christians, Muslims, and Jews. You'd be delusional to think you could make any difference one way or the other.

    I did spot you delivering dental advice emblazoned in yellow. How charming.

    What was the subject of this piece again?

    Thought provoking indeed.but nothing new

    Personally i find the war in yemen more interesting.the flow of african refugees to yemen is a sign of things to come.it is the Achilles heel of arabia and the ballistic missiles will start to increase in pace in 2018.i recently watched a series on african music and it stirred my raw passions.great stuff.most of the west is numb by comparison.who knows what the future will bring.
    The pa and hamas have made a dreadful mistake of assuming that time was on their side.they should take the deal on the table.because it will be a fair one.

    Read More
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  176. Talha says:
    @RobinG
    All an0nymous posters are not trolls
    +
    All trolls are not anonymous.

    The cartoon is amusing, but you, Talha, are the one who not only feeds trolls, you lay them a banquet.

    Hey RobinG,

    Doh! Reallized that the cartoon said ‘Robin’ – LOL! Oops – was not meant as a personal reference to you. :)

    Yeah – I gotta totally working that, must not feed trolls and try to make sure to stay on topic.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  177. Che Guava says:
    @anon
    At least he stopped using the "rehmat" sock puppet ! Baby steps !

    Peace, love and never ending jihad (inner struggle ,of course*)


    *requisite bit 'o takkiyah

    BTW, I may have been fooled, but am not believing that Rehmat and Tralha are the same person.

    Rehmat is still posting on Occidental Observer, not here now.

    Rehmat may well being an expression of a hive, (if so, dullards), as a former mod on a deceased, popular, and controversial site, am thinking that Tralha is likely a real person, as I am with my nonsensical u-name, and you behind anonymous coward.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Very brave of you to post under your real name , Che Guava . So much courage, all the cowards are in awe of your bravery !
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  178. Che Guava says:
    @Anon-og


    Israel Becoming a 'Refuge for Pedophiles,' Warns Advocate for Child Sex Abuse Victims

    read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710150

    “It seems to us Israel is increasingly becoming a refuge for pedophiles and alleged pedophiles,” said Waks. “It’s an easy get-out-of-jail card for them.” Waks, who is married with three children, recently moved back to Israel, where he was born and served in the army.


    According to research data he cited, one in five children in Israel experiences sexual abuse.

    “There’s a range of factors that suggest there may be a significantly higher proportion within the ultra-Orthodox community,” said Waks. “I think any closed community would have increased cases, because these cases are silenced. They’re swept under the carpet. Not only that, but in the Haredi community, they don’t even talk about sex, so how can they talk about sexual abuse?”
    read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710150

    The U.S.A. Department of State was listing Israel as being the major player in human trafficking and other crimes, ten or more years ago. Of course, instant (actually, not instant, must have been some honest people at the Dept of State at the time) withdrawal from the list, but anybody to having experience with Izzies, is knowing that is not the mentality of all, but all too many, most.

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  179. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Che Guava
    BTW, I may have been fooled, but am not believing that Rehmat and Tralha are the same person.

    Rehmat is still posting on Occidental Observer, not here now.

    Rehmat may well being an expression of a hive, (if so, dullards), as a former mod on a deceased, popular, and controversial site, am thinking that Tralha is likely a real person, as I am with my nonsensical u-name, and you behind anonymous coward.

    Very brave of you to post under your real name , Che Guava . So much courage, all the cowards are in awe of your bravery !

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Very crappy of you to making such a comment as Anon. Falling into the nearest ditch, ASAP, please.

    You are an imbecile.
    , @Che Guava
    死んでしまえ。
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  180. bleck says:
    @Brabantian
    Was it Israel Shamir himself, who some time back suggested that Donald Trump would cleverly undermine Israel & Jewish power ... by appearing to give Israeli Jews what they greedily want, and thus use Jewish over-reach to sabotage both the Zionist project & Jewish influence in the world? Is Trump perhaps using the one strategem that will work in reversing Zionist might, which is too dangerous and powerful to confront directly?

    Multiple points in Shamir's article above quite support this view. As Shamir notes, the Palestinians and Muslims as a whole - Saudi regime fools aside - have become united across sectarian and partisan divides as they would not have been without Trump's move. The 'One State for Palestine-Israel' agenda has been strengthened with perhaps now unstoppable momentum. The world community is much closer to declaring racial-law Israel an apartheid state, and isolating it as a pariah.

    There is a view that Trump, who knows the Jewish mentality well, having spent his entire career amidst it, from his earliest days with mobster Meyer Lansky's friend Roy Cohn - that Trump's gambit with approving Jerusalem as the capital, annexing more of the West Bank etc ... is precisely Trump's revenge for a lifetime of being forced to cater to Jews and to Jewish mafias, in the cut-throat world of New York and New Jersey development and real estate, not to mention Trump's recent forced subservience to Chabad etc influence in the White House. And so perhaps, the decline in Israeli & Jewish power that now snowballs as a result of Trump's actions, is Trump's secret pleasure.

    It is possible as well, that Trump is shaking the table in order to let the mid-east dominoes fall into conflict, Israel with its neighbours, & the Muslim factions against each other as Saudi deviousness is exposed ... ultimately buttressing Trump's anti-immigration, ring-fence-the-Anglo-culture positioning, as the world watches mid-East nations heat up conflict out of what can be portrayed as their inner nature. Trump is perhaps lighting up the mid-East on purpose, as the best tool he has to demolish both Jewish influence, and Islamist-fellow-traveller fake progressives in the West.

    You give him too much credit. Despite I find him an intelligent man, it’s too much to control the psychology of all these people.

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  181. Che Guava says:
    @Anon
    Very brave of you to post under your real name , Che Guava . So much courage, all the cowards are in awe of your bravery !

    Very crappy of you to making such a comment as Anon. Falling into the nearest ditch, ASAP, please.

    You are an imbecile.

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  182. Che Guava says:
    @Anon
    Very brave of you to post under your real name , Che Guava . So much courage, all the cowards are in awe of your bravery !

    死んでしまえ。

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  183. Che Guava says:

    To Unz mods, you and Mr. Unz should be to reconsidering the use of ‘anon’, sure i may wamting to use for safety on dangerous expressiom at some time, but as of now, it is only a tool for being trolls. As I was experiencing

    I will just saying, attack by Anon on me, probably Tralha, but no reason for the attack. I am really to thinking that to always allowing any posting as Anon or any longer u-names starting with the letter a-n-n-on on this site is becoming a real problem.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    probably Tralha
     
    Bro, trust me - I don't obsess about you like you do about me. That ain't my style.

    Also - "Trollha" is a better one - use that instead.

    Anyway, ignoring "anon"s is probably a good rule of thumb - something I'm probably going to do myself.
    , @white noise
    @Che Guava

    To Unz mods, you and Mr. Unz should be to reconsidering the use of ‘anon’, sure i may wamting to use for safety on dangerous expressiom at some time, but as of now, it is only a tool for being trolls. As I was experiencing

    I will just saying, attack by Anon on me, probably Tralha, but no reason for the attack. I am really to thinking that to always allowing any posting as Anon or any longer u-names starting with the letter a-n-n-on on this site is becoming a real problem.
     
    I agree. The 'anon' handle is just a tool for the (many) Hasbara trolls to post nonsense while hiding in the shadows. The coward way.

    Mr Unz should have all 'anon' variants blocked, and also this site desperately needs moderators, to delete all the mad babbling of the known trolls.
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  184. Talha says:
    @Che Guava
    To Unz mods, you and Mr. Unz should be to reconsidering the use of 'anon', sure i may wamting to use for safety on dangerous expressiom at some time, but as of now, it is only a tool for being trolls. As I was experiencing

    I will just saying, attack by Anon on me, probably Tralha, but no reason for the attack. I am really to thinking that to always allowing any posting as Anon or any longer u-names starting with the letter a-n-n-on on this site is becoming a real problem.

    probably Tralha

    Bro, trust me – I don’t obsess about you like you do about me. That ain’t my style.

    Also – “Trollha” is a better one – use that instead.

    Anyway, ignoring “anon”s is probably a good rule of thumb – something I’m probably going to do myself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Tahla,

    Excuse me, my error. I am not obsessed by you. I regret my bad-tempered comment, did when I woke up this morning.

    Seriously, it would be a good idea to banish 'anon...' posts that are just internal trolling, and external trolling. I can see the value of allowing it for people to expressing opinions that may endanger them, as said before, but there has been a flood of zionist and internal troll 'anon ...' since summer this year.

    My sincere apology to you. No excuse, but a persistent tooth-ache.

    My suggestions to Mr. Unz and the mods: dump all 'anon...' posts where the poster has not posting anything with semantic content beforehand, that would take care of most of the zionist 'anon...'.

    Dump any posts by 'anon...' from a real Unz Review poster where the purpose is only intra-site trolling. If they want to be trolls, fine, but they should not be able to use 'anon...' to do it, only the regular u-name.
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  185. Anon-og says:

    “Trollha”

    lol …….good one bro!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Just trying to help a brother out...

    I remember once, some guy I was consulting for kept on calling me Tohar and I didn't correct him the first few times so it stuck 'cause it was too embarrassing to say "Hey man, you've been butchering my name for two months."

    I was Tohar (aka Trollhar) until that gig ended. It's still a running gag between me and my brother.

    Wa salaam

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  186. Talha says:
    @Anon-og
    “Trollha”

    lol .......good one bro!

    Just trying to help a brother out…

    I remember once, some guy I was consulting for kept on calling me Tohar and I didn’t correct him the first few times so it stuck ’cause it was too embarrassing to say “Hey man, you’ve been butchering my name for two months.”

    I was Tohar (aka Trollhar) until that gig ended. It’s still a running gag between me and my brother.

    Wa salaam

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  187. @anon
    At least he stopped using the "rehmat" sock puppet ! Baby steps !

    Peace, love and never ending jihad (inner struggle ,of course*)


    *requisite bit 'o takkiyah

    At least he stopped using the “rehmat” sock puppet !

    Pretty sure rehmat is not Talha’s sock puppet. Rehmat has a blog under the same name and posts at a number of web sites. Their posting style and the content of their posts is nothing alike. You are already quite paranoid and irrational about Islam and you seem to think “takkiyah” is something a Muslim will casually deploy when debating with grim doomsayers who project all their fears and insecurities onto a religion they don’t want to understand. That is paranoia stacked on top of paranoia and it is a short leap from there to seeing Muslim sock puppets crawling out of the woodwork.

    Some perspective… Add up all the civilian and non-battlefield deaths attributed to Islamist extremists from, say, 1965 to 2015 and compare that total to the number of civilians killed in that time period by the US military and its various proxy death squads/militia groups (and the USG’s “economic sanctions” on Iraq, Syria etc. and its fleecing of the former Soviet Union during the Yeltsin years). Interestingly enough many, perhaps even most, Americans believe God is on their country’s side by default as it rampages around the world leaving death and destruction in its wake.

    Maybe that is why most of the world’s people think the United States of America is the greatest threat to peace. But they are probably being tricked by Muslims to say that, right? lol

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Some perspective… Add up all the civilian and non-battlefield deaths attributed to Islamist extremists from, say, 1965 to 2015 and compare that total to the number of civilians killed in that time period by the US military and its various proxy death squads/militia groups


     

    Seems an unfair comparison . Only civilian and non battlefield kills carried out by "extremists" are counted for Muslims but you want to compare it to US military kills and the killings of various proxy groups.

    What about state sponsored genocide such as occured in that time frame by Islamic regimes : 2 million + killed in Biafra by Nigerian forces , Millions killed in Darfur and South Sudan by Islamic Rep of Sudan forces , Half a million killed in Papua by Indonesian forces &c. &c.

    Also I see anyone mentioning Takkiya is unacceptable to you but how about whining about Hasbara , equally offensive ?

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  188. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Lincoln Blockface Squarebeard III

    At least he stopped using the “rehmat” sock puppet !
     
    Pretty sure rehmat is not Talha's sock puppet. Rehmat has a blog under the same name and posts at a number of web sites. Their posting style and the content of their posts is nothing alike. You are already quite paranoid and irrational about Islam and you seem to think "takkiyah" is something a Muslim will casually deploy when debating with grim doomsayers who project all their fears and insecurities onto a religion they don't want to understand. That is paranoia stacked on top of paranoia and it is a short leap from there to seeing Muslim sock puppets crawling out of the woodwork.

    Some perspective... Add up all the civilian and non-battlefield deaths attributed to Islamist extremists from, say, 1965 to 2015 and compare that total to the number of civilians killed in that time period by the US military and its various proxy death squads/militia groups (and the USG's "economic sanctions" on Iraq, Syria etc. and its fleecing of the former Soviet Union during the Yeltsin years). Interestingly enough many, perhaps even most, Americans believe God is on their country's side by default as it rampages around the world leaving death and destruction in its wake.

    Maybe that is why most of the world's people think the United States of America is the greatest threat to peace. But they are probably being tricked by Muslims to say that, right? lol

    Some perspective… Add up all the civilian and non-battlefield deaths attributed to Islamist extremists from, say, 1965 to 2015 and compare that total to the number of civilians killed in that time period by the US military and its various proxy death squads/militia groups

    Seems an unfair comparison . Only civilian and non battlefield kills carried out by “extremists” are counted for Muslims but you want to compare it to US military kills and the killings of various proxy groups.

    What about state sponsored genocide such as occured in that time frame by Islamic regimes : 2 million + killed in Biafra by Nigerian forces , Millions killed in Darfur and South Sudan by Islamic Rep of Sudan forces , Half a million killed in Papua by Indonesian forces &c. &c.

    Also I see anyone mentioning Takkiya is unacceptable to you but how about whining about Hasbara , equally offensive ?

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  189. @The Alarmist

    "That is why so many American politicians commit suicide while being accused of some non-actionable non-offence, like lusting after a 17 year old girl some years ago."
     
    So many? Not enough, my friend. Not enough.

    "The Europeans disagree with the Americans and the Jews, and reserve their judgment."
     
    A sign that the Europeans still hate jews enough to not even suffer any guilt for making Europe so intolerable for European jews that a narrow strip of land surrounded by multitudes of hostiles looks appealing.

    "The whole of Jerusalem had been declared a corpus separatum, a separate body under international jurisdiction, by the same UN resolution (181 (II) 1/ of 29 November 1947) that called for creation of a Jewish and an Arab state in Palestine."
     
    Yeah, the UN, font of all that is good in the world, like blind eyes to massacres in Rwanda and Serbia, or rape of young local girls and the spread of cholera in Haiti by their troops, and other, similar good works around the world. By citing the UN, you are actually making a case pro Israeli control of Jerusalem. That resolution was a de jure attempt to stop what Haganah and the Zionists et al had de facto set in motion.

    While it is true that Europe is so intolerable for Jews that they have all fled from oppression, one should not forget that many Jews hate anyone and anything that is not Jewish. In fact, many Jews hate each other and even hate themselves but do not feel any guilt about it. Read Deuteronomy, the Book of Love for your fellow man. Will AntiSemitism get so bad that eventually Jews will have to flee from the Earth to another planet altogether? How sad for mankind.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    many Jews hate each other and even hate themselves but do not feel any guilt about it
     
    Islamic terror attacks on other Muslims including mosques number in the hundreds or even thousands every year and end up killing thousands of their fellow Muslims year after year. Many are SUICIDE attacks. There are zero Jewish attacks on Jewish targets in any year , and zero suicide attacks . No , it Seems it is another group that hates itself far more ......
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  190. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ploni Almoni
    While it is true that Europe is so intolerable for Jews that they have all fled from oppression, one should not forget that many Jews hate anyone and anything that is not Jewish. In fact, many Jews hate each other and even hate themselves but do not feel any guilt about it. Read Deuteronomy, the Book of Love for your fellow man. Will AntiSemitism get so bad that eventually Jews will have to flee from the Earth to another planet altogether? How sad for mankind.

    many Jews hate each other and even hate themselves but do not feel any guilt about it

    Islamic terror attacks on other Muslims including mosques number in the hundreds or even thousands every year and end up killing thousands of their fellow Muslims year after year. Many are SUICIDE attacks. There are zero Jewish attacks on Jewish targets in any year , and zero suicide attacks . No , it Seems it is another group that hates itself far more ……

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    • Replies: @Ploni Almoni
    You have made me think. Since most and perhaps all terrorist attacks and mass shootings in the US are fake, and in particular 9/11 which was an insurance scam with no planes involved, used as a pretext to create a police state in the US and launch a war on the enemies of Israel, and most or all European terrorist are also fake (think of all those terrorists who drop their ID's on site) then probably all or most terrorist attacks reported in Islamic countries are also fake. The governments of today are completely divorced from the populations they rule, and the system of ruling through fake news is very effective. What reason is there for "suicide bombers" to blow themselves up? This is government on the cheap. Keeps people in line, makes them willing to give up all their freedom for "protection." I base my opinion on what I see around me, and not what they tell me or you in the newspapers or on TV. You are being exploited. Or perhaps you are yourself a propagandist. But you are not believable.
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  191. TT says:

    None get to that promised 81virgins whorehouse lies. The suicide bomber is a murderer of innocent, condemn to hell torment with no respite. The grave worshipper depends on his mind staye during death moment, if he is living with kind heart, speech and actions, he might have wholesome mind during death moment leading him to heaven with 500 female deities serving him.

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  192. Che Guava says:
    @Talha

    probably Tralha
     
    Bro, trust me - I don't obsess about you like you do about me. That ain't my style.

    Also - "Trollha" is a better one - use that instead.

    Anyway, ignoring "anon"s is probably a good rule of thumb - something I'm probably going to do myself.

    Tahla,

    Excuse me, my error. I am not obsessed by you. I regret my bad-tempered comment, did when I woke up this morning.

    Seriously, it would be a good idea to banish ‘anon…’ posts that are just internal trolling, and external trolling. I can see the value of allowing it for people to expressing opinions that may endanger them, as said before, but there has been a flood of zionist and internal troll ‘anon …’ since summer this year.

    My sincere apology to you. No excuse, but a persistent tooth-ache.

    My suggestions to Mr. Unz and the mods: dump all ‘anon…’ posts where the poster has not posting anything with semantic content beforehand, that would take care of most of the zionist ‘anon…’.

    Dump any posts by ‘anon…’ from a real Unz Review poster where the purpose is only intra-site trolling. If they want to be trolls, fine, but they should not be able to use ‘anon…’ to do it, only the regular u-name.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Che,

    My sincere apology to you.
     
    No problem man - we all have our off days. And my apologies for saying anything that exacerbated the situation. I hope you're feeling better especially in time for your holidays.

    I agree with you that 'anon' has some potentially good uses - depends on the intent.


    If they want to be trolls, fine, but they should not be able to use ‘anon…’ to do it, only the regular u-name.
     
    Couldn't agree more.

    Peace.

    , @anonymous
    Worthless post. Repetitive . Adds zero value . If you dislike free speech, need to control the narrative , realize your beliefs cannot stand next to crititism or opposing views or need to be in an echo chamber head to huffpost.
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  193. Talha says:
    @Che Guava
    Tahla,

    Excuse me, my error. I am not obsessed by you. I regret my bad-tempered comment, did when I woke up this morning.

    Seriously, it would be a good idea to banish 'anon...' posts that are just internal trolling, and external trolling. I can see the value of allowing it for people to expressing opinions that may endanger them, as said before, but there has been a flood of zionist and internal troll 'anon ...' since summer this year.

    My sincere apology to you. No excuse, but a persistent tooth-ache.

    My suggestions to Mr. Unz and the mods: dump all 'anon...' posts where the poster has not posting anything with semantic content beforehand, that would take care of most of the zionist 'anon...'.

    Dump any posts by 'anon...' from a real Unz Review poster where the purpose is only intra-site trolling. If they want to be trolls, fine, but they should not be able to use 'anon...' to do it, only the regular u-name.

    Hey Che,

    My sincere apology to you.

    No problem man – we all have our off days. And my apologies for saying anything that exacerbated the situation. I hope you’re feeling better especially in time for your holidays.

    I agree with you that ‘anon’ has some potentially good uses – depends on the intent.

    If they want to be trolls, fine, but they should not be able to use ‘anon…’ to do it, only the regular u-name.

    Couldn’t agree more.

    Peace.

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  194. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Che Guava
    Tahla,

    Excuse me, my error. I am not obsessed by you. I regret my bad-tempered comment, did when I woke up this morning.

    Seriously, it would be a good idea to banish 'anon...' posts that are just internal trolling, and external trolling. I can see the value of allowing it for people to expressing opinions that may endanger them, as said before, but there has been a flood of zionist and internal troll 'anon ...' since summer this year.

    My sincere apology to you. No excuse, but a persistent tooth-ache.

    My suggestions to Mr. Unz and the mods: dump all 'anon...' posts where the poster has not posting anything with semantic content beforehand, that would take care of most of the zionist 'anon...'.

    Dump any posts by 'anon...' from a real Unz Review poster where the purpose is only intra-site trolling. If they want to be trolls, fine, but they should not be able to use 'anon...' to do it, only the regular u-name.

    Worthless post. Repetitive . Adds zero value . If you dislike free speech, need to control the narrative , realize your beliefs cannot stand next to crititism or opposing views or need to be in an echo chamber head to huffpost.

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    • Troll: Che Guava
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Huffpost?? WTF?
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  195. Che Guava says:

    I tried replying in Japanese, rightly, I think, the mods were removing it, but they should also removing your post, omly purpose is trolling, and as anonymous with no reason?

    You should postiing under your u-name, and the mods should preventing creeps like you from posting as anon when the only reason is intra-site trolling.

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  196. Che Guava says:
    @anonymous
    Worthless post. Repetitive . Adds zero value . If you dislike free speech, need to control the narrative , realize your beliefs cannot stand next to crititism or opposing views or need to be in an echo chamber head to huffpost.

    Huffpost?? WTF?

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  197. Karl says:
    @Keith Alby
    A Jordanian who owns Arab Bank is a dual citizen of both Jordon and KSA. Rumors are ripe that he has been detained in KSA like Saad Hariri who is a dual citizen of both Lebanon and KSA. Saad Hariri being the Prime Minister of Lebanon was temporarily detained in KSA and his diplomatic immunity didn’t work.

    Israel Firsters, if you have dual citizenship, your diplomatic immunity might not work in USA. Beware, Netanyahu if you still hold USA citizenship as many of you do.

    5 Keith Arby > Beware, Netanyahu if you still hold USA citizenship

    Bibi went to high school in Philadelphia (I can hear it!) when his dad was a visiting professor there, but Netanyahu has never accepted any foreign citizenships.

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  198. “Jerusalem is first of all a symbol, and a potent one; the American recognition of Jewish sovereignty over the Holy City is a sign of the final Jewish victory over Christianity, and it is to be deeply regretted.” No Mr. Shamir. This is a good sign. It is the beginning of setting boundaries for Israel. I have no worries about Christians having access to the holy sites. Also, the drive to make Jerusalem the capital of Israel is even more important to the Zioevangizers. They think the third temple will be rebuilt. It will not be rebuilt. Jesus destroyed the temple completely. Here are some youtubes about that:

    http://askelm.com/temple/t000701.htm Ernst Martin

    Julian the Apostate tried rebuilding the temple. There was a huge earthquake. The same thing will happen again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Indeed, the earthquake was accompanied by bursts of flames coming from the underground. The thing will happen again, but the flames this time would be 'the breath of Christ's mouth' coming from above:
    "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival. 9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder,…(2 Thessalonians 2:7-9)
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  199. @anonymous
    My favorite Catholic author..

    Dr E Michael Jones on the Black Jewish Alliance and Destabilization
    Dr. E. Michael Jones returns to discuss his piece "Soros or Cyrus: The Violent Legacy of the Black/Jewish Alliance." We talk about how Jewish support for the Civil Rights Movement was really an attempt to turn black Americans into revolutionaries. When that project failed in the late 1960s, the CIA and Hollywood went to work producing a series of "blaxploitation" films promoting criminal behavior and sexual promiscuity among black youth with the goal of destroying the already weakened black family. Later we discuss how the militarization of the country's police departments and the creation of a black "lumpenproletariat" are part of a divide-and-conquer strategy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqono80o690

    E Michael Jones on The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit
    This is the most in-depth and scholarly acceptable book available detailing the long and bloody history of the conflict between Western, Christian Civilization – particularly the Catholic Church – and the Jews. The constant acts of revolution and subversion are all chronicled here.

    This is a conflict that has simmered and boiled for over 2000 years and has done much to shape world history – from The Crucifixion to the current conflict in Syria. If you ever hope to fully come to grips with and understand “The JQ” (AKA: The Red Pill there is no coming back from) from a historical and academic perspective then this book is a “must read”.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pf-pYBYNTM

    E. Michael Jones is an RCC groid/gloid lover who would OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. His “blame the Jews for everything” shtick is his way of not dealing with whom is really causing problems in the world – the RCC/Zioevangizers/Freemasons.

    I watch his youtubes and he never fails to come up with something idiotic. He criticizes pornography which is fine, but blames it all on the Jews. Sure, Alfred Kinsey and Hugh Hefner needed the Jews for their “work.”

    He doesn’t believe there are Caucasian/white people. He says he’s not white, he’s German/Irish. Madness!!!

    He believes philosophy is the way to deal with world problems. He travels to Iran where of course he has an audience for his anti-Semitic nonsense. But he has never once said that Islam is a Christian heresy.

    He doesn’t deal with IQ – which is the starting point of everything.

    He rants about usury and capitalism. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to make an honest profit. He conveniently forgets the parable of the talents.

    I’m not a semitophile. I want Jews out of the West and in Israel. This is why I support Israel because we need a place for the Jews. Jones will babble about the poor Palestinians. Most Palestinians are Muslims with an average IQ of 85. They are racially mixed, like most North Africans and can easily be absorbed by neighboring Arab countries.

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  200. @Talha
    Hey Ivan,

    You seem to be engaging in a respectable manner so...

    There is no doubt that the history of conquests are bloody.
     
    All conquests are bloody, that is not the question; the question is the manner in which they are. Waging war with armies on open plains is one thing and respectable - pillaging and leveling cities to the ground is another altogether.

    The point is Islam has a bloodier record than most, beaten only by the Mongols
     
    Islam has a long record for sure, but if you are going to posit something like this, then you need to provide evidence. Preferably respectable, academic sources. I already cited the site necrometrics which shows that Muslims did have some pretty bloody episodes according to body count. Tamerlane and the deplorable slave trade make a showing, but where else are Muslims in the top tier? I believe the Muslim conquest of India should probably be in the top 20 at around 13 million. Keep in mind the Taipeng Rebellion was a Christian one. Necrometrics cites all its sources and weighs the numbers between them - it's all very transparent.

    Some conquests were fairly bloody - the Turkic Muslims seemed to have a penchant for this and were known to pillage a city after victory. Tamelrane was particularly sanguinary in his conquests - erecting towers of skulls and what not.

    The Rashidun were the ones that set our example; they conquered the territory which forms the core lands of Islam - from North Africa through Transoxiana. They were fierce on the battlefield - as one scholar of history stated; "Christian, Zoroastrian Persian, Jewish, and Muslim sources are all in full
    agreement that the armies of Islam conquered and with magnificent brutality." That same scholar points out certain historical points; "Several accounts exist of Nestorian and Monophysite bishops actually encouraging their congregations to submit to—or even embrace—political rule of the Muslims because they knew that Muslims would necessarily be more tolerant to their faith than their former Byzantine masters who insisted, under persecution, on Chalcedonian orthodoxy....It is well known that the early Islamic armies and navies were staffed by a large number of professing Christians. The first 'Islamic' navy, in fact, to take on the Byzantines was made up almost entirely of professing Christians from the Levant."
    http://visionandvalues.org/docs/abused/Graham.pdf?dcdd03

    Keep in mind that brutality was mostly around open plains where the Byzantines and Sassanids (stupidly) met the Arabs in open combat:
    “For the majority of seventh-century Syriac Christians, the most involved geoploitical changes came not with the Islamic Conquests of the 630s but from the Byzantine-Persian wars from 602 to 628, which were much more destructive than the Islamic conquests. With a few notable exceptions, during the Islamic conquests the majority of sustained military engagements took place in the countryside, minimizing civilian casualties. Most cities capitlulated to Arab forces without prolonged siege. Material evidence of the Islamic conquests is minimal, and the conquests did not leave the type of destruction layers associated with much more devastating invasions. Instead, inscriptional evidence witnessed continual church occupation and even new construction throughout the period.”
    Envisioning Islam: Syriac Christians and the Early Muslim World

    And bringing it back to the topic at hand - why people in the West seem to not understand the more nuanced view Eastern Christians (often those in Palestine) have regarding their shared history with Muslims. This why the Syrian Orthodox Church can say:
    "The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church."
    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    Thus having read enough by serious historians (including military historians) on the subject; it is very difficult to take your claim at face value. It was not utopia by any means, but neither was it the hell that some people like to paint it to be. This is a fairly judicious look at the mutual history by a Syriac Christian historian:
    http://www.syriacstudies.com/2013/07/09/christians-and-jews-under-islam-najib-saliba-phd/

    in every case accompanied by the imposition of backwardness
     
    This is opinion posited as fact. The problem here is that Persia flourished after she converted to Islam. See how many famous Persian physicians, scientists or astronomers came during the Sassanid era:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-modern_Iranian_scientists_and_scholars

    Why would Sassanid Persians have been studying the works of the Byzantine Greeks - who were their civilizational rivals? Much of the Muslim world is backward materially compared to Europe and other places now, but that wasn't always the case.

    and slavery
     
    Everyone brought slavery where they conquered in the pre-modern world. European Christians were enslaving Slavs and others (even other Christians) and selling them to Muslims hand-over-fist. The Church made some edicts to regulate it to make it more humane - money was too good to pass up:
    https://medium.com/the-history-buff/slavery-in-medieval-italy-cb189ae45933

    Have you read about the Spanish and Portuguese conquests of South America? Again, you are making it seem like Islam is the only guilty party - this doesn't jive with historical fact.

    If there is indeed such goodwill please inform the Sunnis of the same.
     
    There is goodwill among a large part of the populace - if there wasn't then a 2% population would have been eaten alive ages ago. Unfortunately, the part of the population that is intent on bullying them is too large for comfort and needs to repent and change their ways. It is my hope, we can return Muslims into suppressing the extremism to where we can have communities where non-Muslim rights are respected.

    Peace.

    “Much of the Muslim world is backward materially compared to Europe and other places now, but that wasn’t always the case.” Why of course Talha. Most Muslims are black/Asians. Mohammed (piss be upon him) was a Caucasian Arab. But once the Muslims started taking over North Africa, they brought in black slaves and through miscegenation destroyed the original Caucasian peoples. You, as a Paki, (average Paki IQ 84) are an Asian, second tier race. But, yes, you are brighter specimen.

    As for Trump declaring Jerusalem Israel’s capital. This is a very good thing. It sticks it to the Muslims and cuck poop Frannie. Now Israel will control the holy sites. I’ve been to Jerusalem and visited the Dome of the Rock. The only thing it needs is a cross on top.

    Once again, a religion class reminder – Islam is a Christian heresy.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks ‘Secret Santa’! Ho, ho, ho!
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  201. @Anonymous

    many Jews hate each other and even hate themselves but do not feel any guilt about it
     
    Islamic terror attacks on other Muslims including mosques number in the hundreds or even thousands every year and end up killing thousands of their fellow Muslims year after year. Many are SUICIDE attacks. There are zero Jewish attacks on Jewish targets in any year , and zero suicide attacks . No , it Seems it is another group that hates itself far more ......

    You have made me think. Since most and perhaps all terrorist attacks and mass shootings in the US are fake, and in particular 9/11 which was an insurance scam with no planes involved, used as a pretext to create a police state in the US and launch a war on the enemies of Israel, and most or all European terrorist are also fake (think of all those terrorists who drop their ID’s on site) then probably all or most terrorist attacks reported in Islamic countries are also fake. The governments of today are completely divorced from the populations they rule, and the system of ruling through fake news is very effective. What reason is there for “suicide bombers” to blow themselves up? This is government on the cheap. Keeps people in line, makes them willing to give up all their freedom for “protection.” I base my opinion on what I see around me, and not what they tell me or you in the newspapers or on TV. You are being exploited. Or perhaps you are yourself a propagandist. But you are not believable.

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  202. Talha says:
    @attilathehen
    "Much of the Muslim world is backward materially compared to Europe and other places now, but that wasn’t always the case." Why of course Talha. Most Muslims are black/Asians. Mohammed (piss be upon him) was a Caucasian Arab. But once the Muslims started taking over North Africa, they brought in black slaves and through miscegenation destroyed the original Caucasian peoples. You, as a Paki, (average Paki IQ 84) are an Asian, second tier race. But, yes, you are brighter specimen.

    As for Trump declaring Jerusalem Israel's capital. This is a very good thing. It sticks it to the Muslims and cuck poop Frannie. Now Israel will control the holy sites. I've been to Jerusalem and visited the Dome of the Rock. The only thing it needs is a cross on top.

    Once again, a religion class reminder - Islam is a Christian heresy.

    Thanks ‘Secret Santa’! Ho, ho, ho!

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
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  203. Seraphim says:
    @attilathehen
    "Jerusalem is first of all a symbol, and a potent one; the American recognition of Jewish sovereignty over the Holy City is a sign of the final Jewish victory over Christianity, and it is to be deeply regretted." No Mr. Shamir. This is a good sign. It is the beginning of setting boundaries for Israel. I have no worries about Christians having access to the holy sites. Also, the drive to make Jerusalem the capital of Israel is even more important to the Zioevangizers. They think the third temple will be rebuilt. It will not be rebuilt. Jesus destroyed the temple completely. Here are some youtubes about that:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94rcOVJBMYQ

    http://askelm.com/temple/t000701.htm Ernst Martin

    Julian the Apostate tried rebuilding the temple. There was a huge earthquake. The same thing will happen again.

    Indeed, the earthquake was accompanied by bursts of flames coming from the underground. The thing will happen again, but the flames this time would be ‘the breath of Christ’s mouth’ coming from above:
    “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival. 9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder,…(2 Thessalonians 2:7-9)

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  204. The American political establishment is thoroughly pro-Israel, both liberal and fundamentalist, Republican and Democrat, from Sanders to Bannon; we knew it, and now Trump allowed the people to read it loud and clear. He did what the people want. That is why you elected him: so he will do what you want, not what somebody else who claims to know better, tells you.

    Some days old, but worth rebuking… One thing is what the American political establishment wants, and that is, of course, to please their Jewish masters and keep them happy.

    … But you also say that this is what the people want, and this is FALSE!!!

    Trump will do what the Jewish lobby wants, not what the (American) people want.

    Are you sure that the American people heartily support Israel, as you imply? Not at all! Hell, even many American Jews are unhappy with Trump’s announcement about Jerusalem…

    Why you talk like MSM? “Matrix (made up) reality”?

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  205. Unless it’s sarcasm. Hopefully so.

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  206. @Israel Shamir
    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained.

    ALL senators? Jews can push a few, but not 90 for and 10 abstained

    .

    Jews can push a few? Jews can push more than a few. And what makes you think that the senators are there to defend the will of the American people? They couldn’t care less! Don’t you know they’re sold out to the Jews?

    Maybe you were not being sarcastic, after all…

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  207. @Talha
    Thanks ‘Secret Santa’! Ho, ho, ho!

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks Da Hen,

    Hope your new year is filled with many blessings!

    Peace.
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  208. @Che Guava
    To Unz mods, you and Mr. Unz should be to reconsidering the use of 'anon', sure i may wamting to use for safety on dangerous expressiom at some time, but as of now, it is only a tool for being trolls. As I was experiencing

    I will just saying, attack by Anon on me, probably Tralha, but no reason for the attack. I am really to thinking that to always allowing any posting as Anon or any longer u-names starting with the letter a-n-n-on on this site is becoming a real problem.

    To Unz mods, you and Mr. Unz should be to reconsidering the use of ‘anon’, sure i may wamting to use for safety on dangerous expressiom at some time, but as of now, it is only a tool for being trolls. As I was experiencing

    I will just saying, attack by Anon on me, probably Tralha, but no reason for the attack. I am really to thinking that to always allowing any posting as Anon or any longer u-names starting with the letter a-n-n-on on this site is becoming a real problem.

    I agree. The ‘anon’ handle is just a tool for the (many) Hasbara trolls to post nonsense while hiding in the shadows. The coward way.

    Mr Unz should have all ‘anon’ variants blocked, and also this site desperately needs moderators, to delete all the mad babbling of the known trolls.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Excellent points. I've had issues with the "Anonymous" name. There is an anti-white, Turkish, atheist jihadi whose sole goal is to prevent the formation of a Caucasian/European Christian movement. He would go on these "racial purity" tirades that makes the Stormfronters look like big time race mixers. Then there was another "Anonymous" who said he was a white guy. It is very easy for commentators to pick names.

    You make a point about Talha. He is a suspicious character and I believe he works in tandem with other commentators, i.e., the Turkish Anonymous. Unz Review would get better commentators, save time by not having to deal with trolls.
    , @RobinG

    The ‘anon’ handle is just a tool for the (many) Hasbara trolls to post nonsense while hiding in the shadows. The coward way.
     
    Sorry, but some of the anons are the distinct opposite of Hasbara. (Are some of them arguing both sides?) Do they all have the same motive for avoiding the archive? The self-defense argument doesn't persuade me. The Unz software knows where they all are. Do they really think a real hacker couldn't track them down? Does having a history of comments make them any less safe? Have they been leaving obvious clues to their identities? (Pretty stupid.)

    My gripe is the confusion. With identifiable pseudonyms, you have a chance of knowing which ones are a waste of time, versus those that might have an original thought, i.e. value added.
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  209. Talha says:
    @attilathehen
    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

    Thanks Da Hen,

    Hope your new year is filled with many blessings!

    Peace.

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  210. @white noise
    @Che Guava

    To Unz mods, you and Mr. Unz should be to reconsidering the use of ‘anon’, sure i may wamting to use for safety on dangerous expressiom at some time, but as of now, it is only a tool for being trolls. As I was experiencing

    I will just saying, attack by Anon on me, probably Tralha, but no reason for the attack. I am really to thinking that to always allowing any posting as Anon or any longer u-names starting with the letter a-n-n-on on this site is becoming a real problem.
     
    I agree. The 'anon' handle is just a tool for the (many) Hasbara trolls to post nonsense while hiding in the shadows. The coward way.

    Mr Unz should have all 'anon' variants blocked, and also this site desperately needs moderators, to delete all the mad babbling of the known trolls.

    Excellent points. I’ve had issues with the “Anonymous” name. There is an anti-white, Turkish, atheist jihadi whose sole goal is to prevent the formation of a Caucasian/European Christian movement. He would go on these “racial purity” tirades that makes the Stormfronters look like big time race mixers. Then there was another “Anonymous” who said he was a white guy. It is very easy for commentators to pick names.

    You make a point about Talha. He is a suspicious character and I believe he works in tandem with other commentators, i.e., the Turkish Anonymous. Unz Review would get better commentators, save time by not having to deal with trolls.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Da Hen,

    I believe he works in tandem with other commentators
     
    Nope - I work alone - sock puppetry ain't my thing - I frankly find it annoying. Although I wish Qasim would come back and post comments. I'm with you on the anonymous thing - not a big fan of it.

    atheist jihadi
     
    No such thing.

    Peace.
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  211. Talha says:
    @attilathehen
    Excellent points. I've had issues with the "Anonymous" name. There is an anti-white, Turkish, atheist jihadi whose sole goal is to prevent the formation of a Caucasian/European Christian movement. He would go on these "racial purity" tirades that makes the Stormfronters look like big time race mixers. Then there was another "Anonymous" who said he was a white guy. It is very easy for commentators to pick names.

    You make a point about Talha. He is a suspicious character and I believe he works in tandem with other commentators, i.e., the Turkish Anonymous. Unz Review would get better commentators, save time by not having to deal with trolls.

    Hey Da Hen,

    I believe he works in tandem with other commentators

    Nope – I work alone – sock puppetry ain’t my thing – I frankly find it annoying. Although I wish Qasim would come back and post comments. I’m with you on the anonymous thing – not a big fan of it.

    atheist jihadi

    No such thing.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Hey Talha. No, I remember a couple of months ago, the anti-white, Turkish, atheist jihadi came to your defense. I recall comments between the two of you. You were getting rattled at my correct naming of Islam as a Christian heresy and the topic of IQ as tied to race. "Anonymous" gave you moral support. That's when I asked "Anonymous" to reveal himself and he did. You're a Muslim so taqiyya is your default position.
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  212. RobinG says:
    @white noise
    @Che Guava

    To Unz mods, you and Mr. Unz should be to reconsidering the use of ‘anon’, sure i may wamting to use for safety on dangerous expressiom at some time, but as of now, it is only a tool for being trolls. As I was experiencing

    I will just saying, attack by Anon on me, probably Tralha, but no reason for the attack. I am really to thinking that to always allowing any posting as Anon or any longer u-names starting with the letter a-n-n-on on this site is becoming a real problem.
     
    I agree. The 'anon' handle is just a tool for the (many) Hasbara trolls to post nonsense while hiding in the shadows. The coward way.

    Mr Unz should have all 'anon' variants blocked, and also this site desperately needs moderators, to delete all the mad babbling of the known trolls.

    The ‘anon’ handle is just a tool for the (many) Hasbara trolls to post nonsense while hiding in the shadows. The coward way.

    Sorry, but some of the anons are the distinct opposite of Hasbara. (Are some of them arguing both sides?) Do they all have the same motive for avoiding the archive? The self-defense argument doesn’t persuade me. The Unz software knows where they all are. Do they really think a real hacker couldn’t track them down? Does having a history of comments make them any less safe? Have they been leaving obvious clues to their identities? (Pretty stupid.)

    My gripe is the confusion. With identifiable pseudonyms, you have a chance of knowing which ones are a waste of time, versus those that might have an original thought, i.e. value added.

    Read More
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  213. @Talha
    Hey Da Hen,

    I believe he works in tandem with other commentators
     
    Nope - I work alone - sock puppetry ain't my thing - I frankly find it annoying. Although I wish Qasim would come back and post comments. I'm with you on the anonymous thing - not a big fan of it.

    atheist jihadi
     
    No such thing.

    Peace.

    Hey Talha. No, I remember a couple of months ago, the anti-white, Turkish, atheist jihadi came to your defense. I recall comments between the two of you. You were getting rattled at my correct naming of Islam as a Christian heresy and the topic of IQ as tied to race. “Anonymous” gave you moral support. That’s when I asked “Anonymous” to reveal himself and he did. You’re a Muslim so taqiyya is your default position.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Uh...OK. How does that explain anything about sock puppetry? Am I an atheist Turk?

    Second, if my default is taqiyyah, why waste your time with me? I’m just going to lie to you anyway cause I got the mad taqiyyah skillz!

    I wouldn’t engage with a compulsive liar - complete waste of time, not a very high IQ thing to do.

    Here - I’ll do you a favor...

    Hey everybody - avoid Talha, the retarded lying Muzzie troll!

    Now I suggest you take that advice and not bother with me. In fact, I’m going to ignore you - see? That’s not so hard!
    , @Seraphim
    Correction. Islam is not a 'Christian heresy'. It is a heresy in its own right. See what the first Christian exposition of Islam has to say about the "superstition of the Ishmaelites"

    “There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites… From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his OWN heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration... There are many other extraordinary and quite ridiculous things in this book which he boasts was sent down to him from God....
    Moreover, they call us Hetaeriasts, or Associators, because, they say, we introduce an associate with God by declaring Christ to the Son of God and God… And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit. Consequently, by avoiding the introduction of an associate with God you have mutilated Him. It would be far better for you to say that He has an associate than to mutilate Him, as if you were dealing with a stone or a piece of wood or some other inanimate object. Thus, you speak untruly when you call us Hetaeriasts; we retort by calling you Mutilators of God.”

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  214. Talha says:
    @attilathehen
    Hey Talha. No, I remember a couple of months ago, the anti-white, Turkish, atheist jihadi came to your defense. I recall comments between the two of you. You were getting rattled at my correct naming of Islam as a Christian heresy and the topic of IQ as tied to race. "Anonymous" gave you moral support. That's when I asked "Anonymous" to reveal himself and he did. You're a Muslim so taqiyya is your default position.

    Uh…OK. How does that explain anything about sock puppetry? Am I an atheist Turk?

    Second, if my default is taqiyyah, why waste your time with me? I’m just going to lie to you anyway cause I got the mad taqiyyah skillz!

    I wouldn’t engage with a compulsive liar – complete waste of time, not a very high IQ thing to do.

    Here – I’ll do you a favor…

    Hey everybody – avoid Talha, the retarded lying Muzzie troll!

    Now I suggest you take that advice and not bother with me. In fact, I’m going to ignore you – see? That’s not so hard!

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Hi Talha,

    This is what you get for acknowledging that harpy. Perhaps you didn't realize, her "greeting" was a slight. Well, an agreement's been made to put Suakin Island under Turkish administration. New fronts open, ranks close?
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  215. Seraphim says:
    @attilathehen
    Hey Talha. No, I remember a couple of months ago, the anti-white, Turkish, atheist jihadi came to your defense. I recall comments between the two of you. You were getting rattled at my correct naming of Islam as a Christian heresy and the topic of IQ as tied to race. "Anonymous" gave you moral support. That's when I asked "Anonymous" to reveal himself and he did. You're a Muslim so taqiyya is your default position.

    Correction. Islam is not a ‘Christian heresy’. It is a heresy in its own right. See what the first Christian exposition of Islam has to say about the “superstition of the Ishmaelites”

    “There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites… From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his OWN heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration… There are many other extraordinary and quite ridiculous things in this book which he boasts was sent down to him from God….
    Moreover, they call us Hetaeriasts, or Associators, because, they say, we introduce an associate with God by declaring Christ to the Son of God and God… And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit. Consequently, by avoiding the introduction of an associate with God you have mutilated Him. It would be far better for you to say that He has an associate than to mutilate Him, as if you were dealing with a stone or a piece of wood or some other inanimate object. Thus, you speak untruly when you call us Hetaeriasts; we retort by calling you Mutilators of God.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Seraphim (from your name I would gather your are Eastern Orthodox) - I was raised a Roman Catholic. What you typed about Islam, I have not seen. In my RCC schools, we were taught Islam is a Christian heresy because of what the Koran says about Jesus. Hillarie Belloc also wrote about Islam being a Christian heresy. Big picture, all true Christians know and believe Islam is a Christian heresy. That is what is most important.
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  216. RobinG says:
    @Talha
    Uh...OK. How does that explain anything about sock puppetry? Am I an atheist Turk?

    Second, if my default is taqiyyah, why waste your time with me? I’m just going to lie to you anyway cause I got the mad taqiyyah skillz!

    I wouldn’t engage with a compulsive liar - complete waste of time, not a very high IQ thing to do.

    Here - I’ll do you a favor...

    Hey everybody - avoid Talha, the retarded lying Muzzie troll!

    Now I suggest you take that advice and not bother with me. In fact, I’m going to ignore you - see? That’s not so hard!

    Hi Talha,

    This is what you get for acknowledging that harpy. Perhaps you didn’t realize, her “greeting” was a slight. Well, an agreement’s been made to put Suakin Island under Turkish administration. New fronts open, ranks close?

    Read More
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    How chivalrous you are Robin G. You are another white knight defending the poor Asian heretic. Big picture, you're just another cuck.
    , @Talha
    Hey RobinG,

    Lesson learned...remind me if I forget.

    Thanks for that tip about Suakin Island. Looks like the Sudanese are on board so it looks like a cooperative arrangement. This kind of project by the Turks is a great idea, heck I’d love to stop over there while going on Hajj. I’m glad if Turkey is turning its attention towards the South and East. They have been far too focused on Europe and the West for decades; I’m not sure they have much to offer Europe and vice versa.

    In the Muslim world they can easily take on a leadership role if things are done in a cooperative way and have a lot to offer in terms of uplifting the poorer countries like in the Horn of Africa. They are also in a fairly good position to help us get out of this Sunni/Shiah morass.

    Peace.
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  217. @RobinG
    Hi Talha,

    This is what you get for acknowledging that harpy. Perhaps you didn't realize, her "greeting" was a slight. Well, an agreement's been made to put Suakin Island under Turkish administration. New fronts open, ranks close?

    How chivalrous you are Robin G. You are another white knight defending the poor Asian heretic. Big picture, you’re just another cuck.

    Read More
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  218. Talha says:
    @RobinG
    Hi Talha,

    This is what you get for acknowledging that harpy. Perhaps you didn't realize, her "greeting" was a slight. Well, an agreement's been made to put Suakin Island under Turkish administration. New fronts open, ranks close?

    Hey RobinG,

    Lesson learned…remind me if I forget.

    Thanks for that tip about Suakin Island. Looks like the Sudanese are on board so it looks like a cooperative arrangement. This kind of project by the Turks is a great idea, heck I’d love to stop over there while going on Hajj. I’m glad if Turkey is turning its attention towards the South and East. They have been far too focused on Europe and the West for decades; I’m not sure they have much to offer Europe and vice versa.

    In the Muslim world they can easily take on a leadership role if things are done in a cooperative way and have a lot to offer in terms of uplifting the poorer countries like in the Horn of Africa. They are also in a fairly good position to help us get out of this Sunni/Shiah morass.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Hey Talha,

    More games of thrones! Yes, Turkey could do much good, but Erdogan is still berating Assad. I heard an opinion today that the "corridor of instability" talk is for his domestic audience, and that he's not [necessarily] such a committed regime-changer.

    I'm sad that you wrote "Sunni/Shiah morass." It's become such a trope. Not that there aren't differences, but IMO it's a foil for the concrete issues of money, land, resources, and power. Then there are Americans who discover the 'Sunni-Shia divide' and think it's the whole story. Case in point is Lee Stranahan who has made quite an effort, but I don't think he has the firm grasp that he believes. He also, IMO, falls into some prejudiced assumptions. Even so, I'm encouraged that he's reaching a certain [new] audience with his original perspective. But I don't want to say more because I really hope you'll give me your opinion of this little talk. And the Saudi foundation that he's so worked up about.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BhL5BbVwAY
    Lee Stranahan LIVE — Be Careful of the HEZBOLLAH HOAX

    (There's a little info-mercialling at beginning and end, with some good advice to his students - don't dismiss [any] source.)
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  219. @Seraphim
    Correction. Islam is not a 'Christian heresy'. It is a heresy in its own right. See what the first Christian exposition of Islam has to say about the "superstition of the Ishmaelites"

    “There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites… From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his OWN heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration... There are many other extraordinary and quite ridiculous things in this book which he boasts was sent down to him from God....
    Moreover, they call us Hetaeriasts, or Associators, because, they say, we introduce an associate with God by declaring Christ to the Son of God and God… And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit. Consequently, by avoiding the introduction of an associate with God you have mutilated Him. It would be far better for you to say that He has an associate than to mutilate Him, as if you were dealing with a stone or a piece of wood or some other inanimate object. Thus, you speak untruly when you call us Hetaeriasts; we retort by calling you Mutilators of God.”

    Seraphim (from your name I would gather your are Eastern Orthodox) – I was raised a Roman Catholic. What you typed about Islam, I have not seen. In my RCC schools, we were taught Islam is a Christian heresy because of what the Koran says about Jesus. Hillarie Belloc also wrote about Islam being a Christian heresy. Big picture, all true Christians know and believe Islam is a Christian heresy. That is what is most important.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    Ridicul