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Charlie Hebdo Rides Again
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The French President stepped on a rake for the second time, and was duly slapped in the face by its long handle. French products went off the shelf in the Arab and Turkish shops; heads chopped off in the midst of pandemics; a lot of animosity, anger, smacking of a civil war. Vous l’avez voulu, you asked for it, Emmanuel Macron! We saw it in 2015, why did you push “Replay”? Anyone can step on a rake once, but to repeat this mistake? It is not a sign of a smart guy, unless this response is exactly what he wanted.

Macron is surely a smart guy. He had a few good practical reasons to provoke French Muslims. Not an ideological man, he wanted to steal the right-wing electorate of Mme Le Pen. They are known for hating foreigners, first of all the large Muslim population of the republic. The Muslims do not fit the self-image of a Frenchman, the slim man in beret and mackintosh with a baguette under his arm. It was not hard to make this Muslim population angry, and then to manifest Macron’s iron fist in dealing with them, and voila! the nationalist voters are in the pocket of the French president.

The replay was jumpstarted by Charlie Hebdo. This small satirical magazine of little artistic value usually publishes bad taste cartoons of public loo wall quality. It wouldn’t survive but for grants and government subsidies. It is so minor that it would not be noticed either but for the mainstream media that bring its message to the last immigrant banlieue. Now they have republished some nasty cartoons aimed at the Prophet Muhammad. The immigrants and their children didn’t enjoy this premeditated insult to their faith. Think about having a good laugh over the Holocaust in the presence of a Jewish person and you’ll understand. Even peaceful and calm people dislike being offended. However, the publication was of little importance, as opposed to Macron’s public and well-covered support for it. He positively celebrated this publication and added a few well-chosen and offensive phrases against Islam. This was the ringer.

Tartuffe would be proud of Macron who declared that Charlie Hebdo is the true carrier of the French Republican spirit and its love for unbridled freedom of speech. It would be bad enough if true, but it is not. France, and the entire world, is now in the middle of a huge offensive against free speech. Facebook banishes accounts and removes posts, Google shadow bans sites, the venerable Unz.com has been both banned on Facebook and shadow-banned on Google. President Trump has his tweets removed or appended with a health warning on Twitter. The proposed new hate law of Scotland would make it a crime to express opinions likely to cause discomfort even within the four walls of your own home. For a long time it has been a crime to say “hateful things” in the public space, and in the UK there are a hundred thousand “hate crimes” a year committed, according to the thought police.

France is leading the assault against free speech. French Writer Hervé Ryssen Jailed for Criticizing Jews;French Court Sentenced Alain Soral to Pay Jewish Organization $158,500 for Re-Releasing 128-Year-Old Book – say the recent headlines. The new French law bans “hate speech” on social media. The law obliges platforms and search engines to remove offensive content – including religious bigotry – within 24 hours or risk a fine of up to €1.25m. This law, and other hate laws are applied in defence of Jews, but strangely do not defend Muslim or Christian sensibilities.

The chief editor of Charlie Hebdois aware of this discriminatory order and approves of it. A Spiked journalist reports on meeting him: “Biard[the editor] is not in favour of unregulated speech. He supports French laws that outlaw Holocaust denial, and is sympathetic towards laws on hate speech. He approves of prosecution of French comedian Dieudonné, who has been arrested numerous times for saying the Shoah wasn’t important.” You may not speak against Jews, but attacking the faith of poor Muslim immigrants is perfectly all right, for they are people of no importance, and they should learn who is their boss and what is the true faith of their new homeland (a hint: it is not Christianity). If they make trouble it is even better for they can be hit hard.

Theoretically, it is illegal in France to insult Muslim (or Christian) beliefs. The European Court of Human Rights had ruled so explicitly in a judgment in the case of Otto-Preminger-Institut v. Austria: “The respect for the religious feelings of believers guaranteed by Article 9 can legitimately be considered violated by provocative images of objects of religious veneration, such images can be considered a malicious violation of the spirit of tolerance, which should also be a feature of a democratic society.”

In the case of Wingrove v. the United Kingdom:

“… Respect for the religious feelings of believers can become the basis for the state’s legal restriction of the publication of provocative images of objects of religious veneration.”

In the case of Pussy Riot v. Russia:“Given that the applicants’ presentation took place in a cathedral, which is a place of religious worship, the Court considers that (the State’s) interference can be regarded as having the legitimate aim of protecting the rights of third parties.”

Such activities should be illegal, but apparently are not. This unfairness is a source of aggravation: Muslims were laughed out of court when they complained against particularly vile Charlie’s cartoons, but Jews almost always win when they go to court against their denigrators. (Full disclosure: I was also sued by LICRA, the French Jewish body, while my French publisher was financially devastated by their Lawfare).

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Thus, France (like the rest of the West) has very little freedom of expression left, and Macron’s claim that Charlie cartoons should be celebrated as a sign of Liberté sounds particularly hypocritical and false, like George Bush’s They hate us for our Freedom. As if that weren’t enough, then came the push to make every Muslim in France aware of this Macron-approved Charlie nastiness. In schools, a lesson was dedicated to educating children in the crude pornography of the cartoons. It was claimed (and I have no way of verifying) that the murdered French teacher had shown cartoons mocking the Prophet for five years every year since 2015, as he did this year after Macron’s speech. He allegedly added another pornographic cartoon and suggested Muslims might leave the classroom if they did not want to be offended. I can imagine the cry (selection! deportation!) if a teacher had suggested that Jewish pupils should leave the room. The upset Muslim parents went to the police and complained. The teacher lodged a counter-complaint alleging defamation. It is difficult to judge now whether the slain teacher was acting as he was obliged to by the authorities, or whether he was especially zealous in delivering the smut.

An 18-year-old youngster of Chechen origin (he had lived in France since he was six) killed him and allegedly decapitated him, and right away the killer was shot dead by police. This created a wave of panic in France, with Macron and Le Pen competing with calls to punish the Muslims. Some Muslim extremists allegedly attacked worshippers in a Nice church and killed three or four of them. This was decried as a false flag action, aimed at terrorising people into accepting the new lockdown, by a prominent radical French site that called for the “refusal of re-containment (or new lockdown) as the only real act of resistance in these troubled times”.

It could be a false flag, for no Muslim group accepted responsibility, and besides, the French secret service has a tradition of killing the perpetrators they sent to do the deed, and the killing of the young Chechen fits their playbook. The next terrorist act, the shooting of a Greek Orthodox priest in Lyon, was also ascribed to bloodthirsty Muslims, until it was discovered that the criminal was a fellow Orthodox ex-monk with some personal grudge against the priest; then the Lyon attack was dropped into the memory hole.

Macron still closed all the churches in France; apparently the government wanted to create the background for a religious war of Christians vs Muslims. Even murkier is the reason why the Chechen rebels/terrorists have been brought to France, as well as Syrian, Libyan and Afghan refugees/terrorists who participated in the bloody civil wars in their lands. They were certainly dangerous.

We know that British intelligence used Libyan refugees with a dubious background to keep meddling in Libyan affairs, and two terrorists, Salman and Hashem Abedi, fled Libya with British government assistance onboard the UK Royal Navy vessel, HMS Enterprise, only to kill and injure many Brits in 2017 in Manchester. We know that the Russians have asked to extradite suspected Chechen terrorists from England and France, but were refused.

It is not likely that these hardened terrorists have been brought to Western Europe in hope of turning them into exemplary citizens, or for humanitarian reasons. It is more probable that they were brought in exactly for the purpose of creating a terrorist underground network, to frighten citizens into obedience. Just like coronavirus, but in another way. Some people are getting killed, but the purpose is achieved: new anti-terrorist acts are enacted and acted upon; more surveillance is introduced. The governments and their security services want to keep us scared, and terrorism is a reliable means for that. It is all part of the war the elites carry out against the nations and against too-unreliable democracy.

Elites are unhappy with us, the people, says Frank Furedi: “Contempt for the people who fail to vote in accordance with their betters’ wishes is one of the main drivers of elite hostility towards democracy today.” They hope “coronavirus will kill populism”, read: democracy, he adds.

You can trust politically incorrect Russians to say it straight. The Russian top banker Herman Gref in his candid speech at SPIEF 2012 said what his Western partners think but never would utter:

“I want to tell you that you are actually saying terrible things. You are proposing to transfer power into the hands of the people. But if people would know all, it will be extremely difficult to manipulate them. People don’t want to be manipulated when they have knowledge. That’s why Kabbalah was a secret teaching for three thousand years. Any mass control implies a manipulation element. How to live, how to manage such a society, where everyone has equal access to information, everyone has the opportunity to receive directly information unless it had been processed through government analysts? How to live in such a society? Your reasoning makes me scary.”

Herman Gref had been injected with a truth serum, people said after hearing his candid talk. (Here in Russian). Perhaps.

Perhaps the very idea of mass immigration from the war-stricken regions was connected with the elites’ desire to start a low-intensity civil war in their own country while undoing social cohesion achieved by centuries of living together.

Now we shall proceed to a deeper reason why Macron decided to splash some oil onto the ever-glimmering bonfire of strife.

A fluent ideologue of French far-right nationalism is Eric Zemmour, an Algerian Jew. Here is a short article in English giving some background to the man. The Irish Times mistakenly calls him “the son of Jewish “Pied-Noirs”, who emigrated from Algeria when it gained independence from France”. This isn’t so: Pied-Noirs were French colonists in Algeria, while Zemmour is a native Algerian Jew. Instead of being an assimilated Jew as he claims, he is rather a dissimulating Jew: despite being an advocate for Catholic France, he goes to a synagogue, avoids pork and keeps kosher (Jewish dietary laws) at home, but not outside. He says he was a leftist until he discovered Muslims and started his own warfare against them.

He is, and has been, allowed to say such things on French mainstream TV channels for which anybody else would be arrested and imprisoned. He calls for putting an end to immigration (which is reasonable) but he does not stop at this, but speaks of mass deportations, and actually calls for a civil war against French Muslim citizens, while presenting himself as a defender of Catholic France.

His official opponent, the ideologue of liberal France, is Bernard Henri Levi, BHL, another North African Jew, who was instrumental in creating civil wars in Syria and Libya while encouraging Islamist fanatics in these lands to overturn the secular socialist regimes. He is a supporter of immigration, and he lives part of the year in Marrakech, Morocco.

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These two Jews are leading France to religious strife, acting on both sides of the divide. Doesn’t it remind us of a Rothschild and a Trotsky, a ruthless banker and a fiery revolutionary, who incited class conflicts from both sides of the social divide, as G.K. Chesterton saw it?

This is the view of a Moroccan-French author, Youssef Hindi, a friend and a co-worker with Alain Soral. He has asserted that Jews have systematically infiltrated Muslim and Christian elites in order to stimulate destructive wars between Muslims and Christians, for the benefit of Jews alone, who will thus be able to settle in the Holy Land, drive out the original inhabitants, and establish a world empire of nations obedient to Jerusalem, which is the ultimate content of Jewish Messianism. Hindi’s West and Islam has the caption “Messianic sources and the genesis of Zionism from medieval Europe to the Clash of Civilizations”.

According to Hindi, Zionism didn’t begin with Theodore Herzl but has deep roots in the Kabbalistic eschatology of the Middle Ages, conveyed and nourished by successive generations of sages, mystics and miracle workers.

Such a sage was Don Isaac Abravanel (born 1437), a subject of the book by Benzion Netanyahu, father of the Israeli Prime Minister and a cult figure for father and son alike. He launched the era of Jewish messianism, says a Haaretz writer. His idea, absorbed and accepted by Benjamin Netanyahu, was the calling for an apocalyptic catastrophe, a “war of the monsters” between Gog and Armilus – symbolising Ishmaelites (Muslims) and Christendom (as Abravanel described, for example, in his work “MayaneiYeshua”). This war will be concluded with a weakening of both sides and the Rise of Jews to world domination, symbolically called ‘The Feast of the Leviathan.’

Karl Schmitt, the great philosopher of his time, said in 1942, that Jews enjoy the colossal global struggle between the monsters, Leviathan (Britain and the US) and Behemoth (Germany): “They gleefully rub their hands waiting for the mutual attrition that would enable the Jews’ domination of the world, or ‘The Feast of the Leviathan.” Will the war between Islam and Christendom now brewing in France allow for the next Feast of the Leviathan?

Perhaps. Avner Ben-Zaken, an Israeli thinker, wrote in his excellent treatment of the subject (here in English) that Benjamin Netanyahu, himself a great adept of Catastrophic Messianism and a believer in the war of Edom and Ishmael as the key to salvation of Jews, visited France in the aftermath of the first Charlie episode and encouraged the French Jewish leadership to act by calling them a “new collective Isaac Abravanel”. Two years later, the French Jewish leadership appointed Emanuel Macron the President of the Republic, says a French Jewish writer blogging under the name Tsarfat (the Hebrew name for France).

In a long and detailed piece Tsarfat tells of a few prominent Jews (Alain Minc, Serge Weinberg, Jacques Attali, and Bernard Mourad) vouching for Macron with David de Rothschild. In 2011, Macron became a junior partner at Rothschild, earning a substantial salary. He was worth every penny – he tricked Le Monde, he cheated President Hollande, he cheated the French state, he did whatever Rothschild demanded and in return, he has got the presidency of the Republic. He was the new king appointed by the new Abravanel. Now he has to deliver the war between Christendom and Islam, for the supreme glory of Israel.

Eric Zemmour, the fiery far-right spokesman, a commenter with its own prime-time slot on a major TV channel, is the ideal man to lead the psychotic (thanks to Corona panic) France (and Europe) into a religious war between Christendom and Islam. In the war, both major opponents will be broken and weakened, while Israel with its Judaism-for-Goyim, the Holocaust creed will have the upper hand.

Eric Montana, a French Christian journalist wrote: “Zemmour is a double agent in the service of the Clash of Civilizations and of the Zionist movement which feeds a climate of permanent tension in France. Zemmour works to provoke division and pour fuel on the fire, by outrageously criminalizing some of our compatriots of Muslim faith, and thus endangering civil peace in our country. Zemmour is a public danger who despite his numerous convictions for inciting racial and religious hatred, remains scandalously present in the media, undoubtedly enjoying protection invisible to the naked eye … but yet very real.”

At least we can say that the opponents of Muslims aren’t Christians. For the Charlie Hebdo magazine is explicitly anti-Christian as well as anti-Muslim. One finds there some most obnoxious cartoons offending the Virgin and Christ, as well as the pope and the Church. (They never offended Jews, somehow).

A Christian government would act like the Russians did. A few years ago, Pussy Riot profaned the St Saviour of Moscow in the way that Femen had profaned some great European cathedrals, from Notre Dame de Paris to Strasbourg. The Russian government did not wait for vigilante justice to be meted upon the viragos, but had gave them up to two years of prison. At the same time, the Russian criminal law has been changed to include ‘sacrilege’ among ordinary crimes, by general consent. Since then, such crimes do not occur.

In Charlie’s France, the Femen despoiling the churches were never punished; but a churchwarden who tried to prevent that was heavily fined. France has a long anti-Christian tradition, usually described as “laic” (secular), and its grand anti-Church coalition of Atheists, Huguenots and Jews coalesced in the days of the Dreyfus Affair. It also has a strong Catholic church, but not one calling for a war with Muslims.

The true Christian view of the developments was expressed by Archbishop Theodosius Atallah Hanna of Sebaste in Palestine (he baptised me in 2002). He condemned the targeting of Muslims in France and around the world through degrading paintings and cartoons. “Hate speech aims at serving the policy of divide and conquer. Christians and Muslims must cement a culture of brotherhood and togetherness and we must work together, more than ever before to defeat all the plans and conspiracies that aim at dividing us and at creating discord in our ranks”, said the Palestinian bishop.

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P.S. Much attention is given to the exotic way of killing by the alleged terrorists. Actually, beheading is as French as onion soup. Guillotine was the preferred national method of execution (like electric chair in the US). The French beheaded their king and queen. During the Battle for Algeria, French paras famously played football with chopped rebel heads. Napoleon had brought beheading to the Middle East, not vice versa. During his campaign in Egypt, general Bonaparte having learned of an uprising in a village had ordered his adjutant Croisier to go there, surround the entire tribe, kill all men without exception, and bring women and children to Cairo. His orders were promptly carried out. Many children and women who were driven on foot died on the way, and, a few hours later, donkeys laden with sacks appeared on the main square of Cairo. The sacks were opened and the heads of the executed men of the guilty tribe rolled across the square, wrote the historian. Should we say chicken came home to roost?

Israel Shamir can be reached at [email protected]

This article was first published at The Unz Review.

 
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  1. I have to say, this article ought to be a must-read for anyone speaking on the current situation in France. Certain double standards ought to irk any man of conscience.

  2. Chris Moore says: • Website

    The chief editor of Charlie Hebdois aware of this discriminatory order and approves of it. A Spiked journalist reports on meeting him: “Biard[the editor] is not in favour of unregulated speech. He supports French laws that outlaw Holocaust denial, and is sympathetic towards laws on hate speech. He approves of prosecution of French comedian Dieudonné, who has been arrested numerous times for saying the Shoah wasn’t important.” You may not speak against Jews, but attacking the faith of poor Muslim immigrants is perfectly all right, for they are people of no importance, and they should learn who is their boss and what is the true faith of their new homeland (a hint: it is not Christianity). If they make trouble it is even better for they can be hit hard.

    Liberals are stuck between the Jews and the Muslims. When they side with the Jews (they’ve got the money, after all) they’ll expect the Christians to do the fighting for them, as they did after 9/11. But I doubt Christians will be in any mood to save Jews or liberals.

    Let them choke on Muslims.

    • Agree: Alternate History
    • Replies: @padre
  3. Alex Weir says: • Website

    There sure is a lot of giddy neoliberal censorship. That doesn’t give immigrants carte blacnhe to kill people over cartoons. Nor should it make anyone find the idea of blasphemy laws palatable. Censoring people because it offends your religious sensibilities isn’t going to keep the peace.

    Should we discourage people from being egregious trolls? Sure. But suggesting we be precious about feelings to the point of enacting punitive policies is a pretty slippery slope. Of the variety that culminates in the ever so roundabout suggestion that murder is an acceptable form of moral outrage at a dirty cartoon.

    I do agree that Russia did the right thing with Pussy Riot. Not because I’m originally Russian and culturally sympathetic to Orthodoxy but because the obscenity occurred in a sacred space. Free speech ends when you enter someone else’s house. A church belongs to the congregation (and the judgment of the clergy) and invading it constitutes a breach of the peace.

    The Charlie Hebdo magazine isn’t being forced into mosques and churches. It’s a goofy rag that is easily ignored aside from its troubling introduction into the curriculum of some schools.

    By all means, call it out for being a base and vapid bit of juvenile provacateuring but implicating it as some kind of powerful cultural cudgel that’s the cause of unrest is goofy.

    It’s like saying that a Palestinian kid calling an IDF battalion a bunch of rotten kikes is the cause of war in the middle east.

    Give me a break.

    • Disagree: Jett Rucker
    • Troll: ploni almoni
    • Replies: @Digital Samizdat
    , @What If
  4. Talha says:

    The chief editor of Charlie Hebdois aware of this discriminatory order and approves of it.

    Makes sense…I mean, did we really expect this guy to be a paragon of virtue and principles?

    but attacking the faith of poor Muslim immigrants is perfectly all right, for they are people of no importance

    This is actually probably right on the money. Muslims immigrants in France don’t really have the necessary demographic numbers and are still a fairly small minority. But…the Muslim world is another matter altogether and France is no longer a top-tier power that it used to be nor does it produce anything that is of necessity to the Muslim world that cannot be procured elsewhere. Cheese, dairy products, eye liners, purses are nice, but those are luxuries, not necessities. Cars? Plenty of other countries make them. Hopefully, millions in military contracts will be lost. We’ll see how well this boycott goes.

    they should learn who is their boss and what is the true faith of their new homeland (a hint: it is not Christianity)

    Well, they brought Christianity to heel a while back, so I suppose it’s time they went after Islam in order to make it bend the knee:

    Of course, it is France so they can do whatever they want – as is their right as well as clearing their streets of Muslim immigrants…and they can watch the Muslim world clear their shelves of French products.

    Honestly, I just wish they had made this very clear from the beginning before allowing Muslims to immigrate there, namely; “If you come here, you must adopt (post)modernist enlightenment values – we will grant you freedom of religion, only insofar as it is congruent with our values after we review, revise and rubber-stamp it. Now sign on the dotted line, shave your beard and take off the hijab.”

    I think many Muslims would have said “no thanks” and the whole world would have been saved a whole lot of trouble.

    He positively celebrated this publication and added a few well-chosen and offensive phrases against Islam. This was the ringer.

    Pissing off nearly 2 billion Muslims by taking a criminal act that should have been made an example of by severely punishing the perpetrator to the fullest extent of the law (perhaps allowing Paty’s surviving relatives a chance to bring back the guillotine in downtown Paris and use it on the killer – an eye for an eye, a head for a head…?) instead of making an official political stance of the government out of it:
    “Cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad were projected onto government buildings in France as part of a tribute to history teacher Samuel Paty, who was murdered by an Islamist terrorist last week.”
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-cartoons-muhammad-samuel-paty-teacher-france-b1224820.html

    And now the French government wants to appeal to the various Arab regimes to stop their own people from exercising their own freedom of expression to stock and sell whatever products they want:
    “France urges Arab countries to stop boycott of French products”
    https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20201025-france-calls-on-arab-countries-to-stop-boycott-of-french-products

    You can’t make this stuff up.

    All in all, great analysis.

    Peace.

  5. Muslims are a physically ugly, backward, arrogant, low IQ and barbaric people, and politicians who allow them entry into Western nations ought to be hung.

  6. If Macron provokes a war between Frenchmen and Moslems, he will be France’s greatest hero since Charles Martel, the Frankish king who thwarted the Moslem conquest of Europe at the Battle of Tours back in the year 732. Take a moment to consider that date. Mohammedans have been our enemies for well over 1,000 years. They devastated the ancient Christian world, and most of it is still in their grungy hands—literally grungy, since they wipe their backsides without the aid of toilet papers.

    When they get into our countries, whether by force of arms or because liberal cockroaches let them in, Moslems rob, rape, and murder. That happens without fail because their “prophet” was himself a robber, a rapist, and a mass murderer, and Moslems consider him to be the “Perfect Man” whose behavior should be emulated in every way. Thus they feel no guilt over torturing and raping little English girls, as gangs of long-bearded Pakistanis did in Rotherham.

    Moslems are our enemies, have always been our enemies, and will be our enemies until the blessed day their death cult is wiped from the face of the planet. In the meantime, it is only our enemies and the traitors in our midst who vomit the lie that they belong in Christian countries.

    By the way, I dislike Jews for all the reasons which need not be discussed. You are weak-minded if you can’t understand that both Moslems and Jews are our enemies. If you pick a side in the intra-Semitic feud, you’re a moron. To hell with the Palestinians. I wouldn’t want them to have a country even if the destruction of Israel wouldn’t mean a lot more Jews coming here as “refugees”.

  7. @Talha

    Honestly, I just wish they had made this very clear from the beginning before allowing Muslims to immigrate there, namely; “If you come here, you must adopt (post)modernist enlightenment values – we will grant you freedom of religion, only insofar as it is congruent with our values after we review, revise and rubber-stamp it. Now sign on the dotted line, shave your beard and take off the hijab.”

    I think many Muslims would have said “no thanks” and the whole world would have been saved a whole lot of trouble.

    No. Mohammedans would have pretended to agree and then immediately go back to their usual yahoo ways once on French soil. Moslems do not honor agreements with “infidels”. It is part of their “religion”. Pretending that’s not part of their “religion”, and that Moslems are honorable, is a lie

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Anon
  8. Anon[373] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gleimhart Mantooso

    You must be a subhuman Israeloid.

  9. Anon[373] • Disclaimer says:

    Israeli false flag 9/11 conned the world into fighting their enemies worldwide. Why stop?

    Does anybody know, are the perps true believer patsies, hired actors (subsequently murdered by Israelies), Israelis wearing masks? Are the victim’s visibly dead or described dead (as in Sandy Hook)?

  10. neutral says:

    France was the second Western nation to fall to the jews (first one was Britain). It has been ruled by jews for over a century now, the only thing that could have saved it is if the Third Reich still existed, now there is precisely zero chance of France being saved.

  11. Ivan says:
    @Gleimhart Mantooso

    Hang the Jews who made all this possible with their guilt mongering over the Holocaust.

  12. Ivan says:

    Yeah Shamir we know that Charlie Hebdo is a Zionist operation. But what about you? You mentioned the Greek Orthodox priest who was killed, but forgot the three Catholics beheaded a day before by the Tunisian “refugee”. Surely that had something to do with the churches being closed.

  13. Ivan says:
    @Talha

    Doesn’t take much does it for your inner Muslim jihadi to shine through does it? You and your ” Peace ” routine. I had you tagged for a dissumulating fanatic from get go.

    • Agree: utu
  14. Vojkan says:

    There is only one idea in this article with which I agree, that Jews have confiscated the debate in France, as only they seem to be allowed to express decided opinions.

    For the rest, regarding Charlie Hebdo and Jews, there’s this:

    https://jewpop.com/opinions/charlie-hebdo-couvertures-juifs-israel/

    And those are only covers.

    Regarding sacrilege / blasphemy, here’s Tareq Oubrou, rector of the Bordeaux mosque speaking for the French radio RTL:

    “C’est inscrit dans le Coran : Dieu a donné la liberté à l’homme de l’offenser. Ce n’est pas à l’homme de se substituer à Dieu et de se mettre en colère à sa place. Le croyant doit vivre sa foi en tant que telle. Et l’incroyant est libre.”
    Translated:
    “It is written in the Quran: God has given man the liberty to offend Him. Mas has not to substitute himself to God and get angry in His stead. The believer has to live his faith as it is. And the unbeliever is free.”

    When the Pussy Riot desecrate Saint-Saviour or the Femen desecrate Notre-Dame, I expect that they will be punished by law because they have committed acts of physical aggression. When Charlie Hebdo publishes cartoons, you are free not to buy it, I have never bought a single issue, but you don’t cry mommy because people mock you, only snowflakes do that, and you just don’t fucking kill people for it, only psychopaths do that. As the father of Albert Camus famously wrote to his son: “A civilised man knows to refrain himself.”

    The freedom to commit blasphemy is consubstantial with the freedom of opinion and speech. The goal is not to make blasphemous cartoons as illegal as Holocaust denial or jokes about gays / fat people / blondes. The goal is to decriminalise Holocaust denial and jokes about gays / fat people / blondes. You are free to believe or not believe and you are free to laugh or not laugh but you have no God given right to force your beliefs or your (lack of) sense of humour on anyone.

    • Agree: Montefrío, jamie b.
    • Replies: @anonymouslim
  15. Outstanding article, thanks be to God.

    Mr. Shamir, how familiar are you with the Jewish eschatology regarding a future alliance between the descendants of Edom and Ishmael in which they oppose Israel?

    There’s a text penned by one Rabbi Yechiel Weitzman, The Ishmaelite Exile, which references Yonatan ben Uzziel, a first century sage who spoke of this alliance.

  16. Being unfamiliar with Charlie Hebdo, I looked it up & cannot understand how anything in it can possibly be taken seriously.

    It seems on par with Viz (for the Brits) & Mad (yankee equivalent) magazines, though cruder (crudity perhaps being culturally weighted).

    I can imagine Boris penning a limerick for Viz, or Donald posing with a framed caricature from Mad, but Maricon upholding garbage like CH is like dunking his head in the sewer.

    For the president of France to say that this rag epitomises the spirit of his constituency is far more offensive than anything it’s published.

  17. The thing about Islam is that any insult to Allah is going to be ignored; Muslim poets have been gleefully insulting Allah for a thousand years. That’s why none of these cartoons are targeted at Allah. But Muhammad is a different matter altogether. If you insult Muhammad you’re absolutely guaranteed of a reaction, if only from the Muslim fringe (which like all fringes is the loudest), so that’s why they target Muhammad. Also, depicting Muhammad by itself wouldn’t get a reaction because Shia Islam has routinely depicted him for centuries. No, it was deliberately made into a hate cartoon contest by Jyllands Posten in Denmark, and when that proved absolutely beyond doubt that a reaction would follow, Charlie Hebdo jumped into the mix. Note that there is no way that Charlie Hebdo can pretend to be independent of the French regime: the moment it accepted government funding, it became an official organ of the government. And after that it has drawn “cartoons”, if you can call them that, mocking the Chibok girls Boko Haram abducted and the Russian tourists killed in the aeroplane bomb over Sinai. I didn’t see the Macronist regime tom tom that around, so this time they really needed a reaction. The fact that the lockdown didn’t squelch the Gilets Jaunes protests, which have resumed, have absolutely everything to do with that.

    France is a country whose hypocrisy is mind boggling. It puts Britain and the Imperialist States of Amerikastan to shame. It imports Chechen terrorists, says “Assad should not be in this world”, bombs Libya, exacts taxes from its “former” colonies in Sub Saharan Africa, forced Haiti to pay “reparations” for the loss of slave labour for over 150 years, and then pretends it cares anything for liberté, egalité, or fraternité. This is one of the reasons I blocked all the French flagwaggers on Fakebook (I was still on Fakebook then) after the so called ISIS attack on Paris (on which the then French regime immediately took the opportunity to declare an emergency that is as far as I know still in force). I do not believe ISIS (assuming it even exists apart from a marketing label) had anything to do with it. To hell with France, I say!

    • Thanks: Ann Nonny Mouse
    • Replies: @Hillaire
  18. Cyrano says:

    France is just not as smart as the greatest democracy. Look how they managed to find a useful role for the muslims – employing them as a little helpers in the fight against socialism (communism in western parlance – because it sounds scarier).

    Why can’t France find a useful role for its muslims? That’s how the leader of the free world managed to free the free world – with the help from the muslims. Hopefully, after this election the free world will manage to free itself from the uninvited and self-appointed “leader” of the “free” world. Free from socialism but enslaved to islam – how nice.

    Let me tell you something about acceptance of islam – as liberalism signaling procedure. I am from the Balkans, we had to put up with them for 500 years. The 500 years that we’ll never get back and for exactly the same length of time that we fell behind western Europe civilizationaly.

    The degenerates from the west drew a wrong conclusion that we are inferior to them – not taking into account what we had to deal with for 500 years. Let’s see how advanced are you going to be – degenerates from the west after 500 years of muslim rule. If they let you survive those 5 centuries. You stupid degenerates.

    I don’t feel sorry for any of you – France, Germany, anywhere else there are terrorist attacks – you deserve all of it. Because you are morons. At least we in the Balkans had Russia to help us get rid of those barbarians. Who are you going to have to help you out?

    You are destroying your civilization in order to prove that you are some kind of liberals, which is supposed to save capitalism – because that’s proves that capitalism is capable of “progress”. Another twist on the brilliant idea – use the acceptance of Islam as proof of liberalism and keep any real necessary improvements to capitalism away – because you’ve already proved that you are liberals by bringing the hordes from the middle east and elsewhere.

    The only thing that you are proving is that you are all mentally ill, and you don’t have control over your mental faculties. At least Donald Trump was right in that regard – curb immigration from muslim countries. Nothing good can come from it. But yeah, take Joe Biden at his word – that he’ll bring you together – a dashing young man full of visionary and progressive ideas. How can’t he not bring you together with such a visionary ideas. That’s what you need, just huddle together and weather the storm in the warm embrace of democracy.

    • Thanks: Joe Levantine
  19. @Gleimhart Mantooso

    So you’re saying Muslims are a race?

    • Replies: @ivan
  20. Nodwink says:

    The very idea of a religious war between Muslims and Christians (or, alternatively, Muslims versus The Rest) is completely ludicrous in the age of space exploration. The Communists were absolutely correct in suppressing religion; the sooner mosques and churches are converted to libraries and public toilets, the better.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @VinnyVette
    , @Craig Nelsen
  21. padre says:
    @Chris Moore

    And when was the last time, they sided with Muslims?

    • Replies: @Chris Moore
  22. @Alex Weir

    Congratulations on missing the point entirely: that the French are allowed to mock Islam and Christianity all they want, just not this one, special, ‘chosen’ people. That’s the point! There’s a double-standard in the laws.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  23. Carlos22 says:

    Remember when the UK sneaked in its hate speech laws they used the stupid analogy of shouting fire in a crowded cinema.

    The British went along with it as the spineless fools they are.

    A better analogy would be you can’t criticize them because they may kill you and we don’t want them to kill you.

    Immediately justifying and appeasing violence against those for simply voicing an opinion.

    “Don’t get me angry you wouldn’t like me angry” view

    The US must never fall for this parlor trick support to the end the 1st amendment.

    • Agree: TheTrumanShow
    • Replies: @ivan
  24. If you applied these hate speech laws as written you’d have to shut down every mosque.

  25. You may criticise religions, and that means you may criticise Muslims but you still may not criticise Js, even if it’s allowed.

    You may not criticise religions, and that means that you may not criticise J. but you may still criticise Muslims even if it’s not allowed.

  26. Dumbo says:

    The Muslims do not fit the self-image of a Frenchman, the slim man in beret and mackintosh with a baguette under his arm.

    Muslim Arabs are not French and never will be.

    Chatlie Hebdo is basically a Jewish operation to anger Muslims so that they kill Christians… Or am I wrong? I think it is disgusting and unfunny.

    But if this helps Muslims to be expelled from France and from Europe, then maybe it’s good. They should all go back to the Middle East to fight Jews in Israel, anyway. I don’t know why we should import their wars.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  27. Talha says:
    @Ray Caruso

    OK. Then the French shouldn’t have let any of them in at all in the first place. That would have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
    • Disagree: TheTrumanShow
    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
  28. The issue is that ‘violence’ is misconstrued as only physical in the west.. verbal violence is perfectly violent, and just like with physical violence, some are more offended by it than others.

    Not all violent speech is offensive, just as not all violent action is offensive. But if you carry out violence, you must at least expect that there is a risk to offend.

    Call your speech free or whatnot, but the pen is mightier than the sword they say, and there you go – intentionally offend someone, expect that they will get offended.

    Maybe some cultures see verbal violence as less than physical violence, but that’s quibbling.

    The conversation should be about intelligent speech, vs dumb, uninformed speech. I can offend a person by being adamant that my cooking bacon in a microwave is awesome – if I were absolutist enough (this has happened once). Same thing here, people grasp onto ‘free’ to tyrannical levels, and expect others to just submit.

    Islam and its practitioners can listen to criticism – they may not accept it or change their behaviour – but mostly when you talk to people from a position of some knowledge, they are happy to listen.

    But Hebdo is not ‘I read the Quran and the Sunnah, and I would like to compare these to the Bible or the Suttas’, it’s just Yahoos verbally shitting on others. And there is only one (two) results from such action that should be expected by anyone other than a Christ or an ideologue – eye for an eye, or escalation.

    • Replies: @ivan
    , @Commentator Mike
  29. Talha says:
    @Ivan

    Why, because Muslims are supposed to simply chill out and take absolutely no action, not even a non-violent boycott of goods when the mocking of their principal religious symbols and figures is endorsed by a government? I think you’re thinking of a different religion.

    If you don’t like the boycott, go out of your way to buy more wine and cheese from the French to offset it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @ivan
  30. Dumbo says:

    Moslems don’t belong in Europe, period. They should be removed completely, even from the Balkans if possible. Driven out to Turkey and the Arabian Peninsula. I mean, how many times can Europeans repeat the same mistakes? Don’t they learn anything from History?

    Between the Covid farce and now this renewal of attacks, things are accelerating. The liberal order is crumbling and it won’t last 20 years, if it gets there. But I don’t know if what will come after will be better or worse. It will be some form of authoritarianism, either left or right.

    As for Jews, I have no idea how to deal with this issue. Maybe send them all to Israel, since they love it so much? Wasn’t it the origina argument to create Israel, to have a nation of their own without anti-semitism? But it doesn’t seem to have worked that way.

    • Agree: Grahamsno(G64)
  31. German_reader says:

    Shamir is a Bolshevik scumbag and all his articles are vile anti-Western disinformation. Not surprising he likes Muslims so much.

    • LOL: utu
  32. @Gleimhart Mantooso

    Miscegenation with African slaves and the inbreeding will do it everytime… but then again, who are we to judge truly hedious to be ugly as sin… isn’t beauty in the eyes of the beholder?

  33. Anyone interested in how the Charlie Hebdo ‘terror’ event of January 7th, 2015 was pure state-fabricated terror in which no-one died, may wish to read Chapter 11 of my book ‘False Flags over Europe, a Modern History of State-Fabricated terror.’ Always remember- They need your fear.

    • Agree: Bill Jones
  34. A man should be free to say whatever he wants to whoever he wants. THAT is free speech. His listener should be mature enough to ponder the pronouncement or reject it as nonsense and move on.

    However this is not the case anywhere. Even on Unz, which all the while touts “free” speech, there is censorship as writers/ bloggers resist attack on stupid points in their articles by deleting unfavourable comments.

    I contend, that if you are a man of substance, whether one in the limelight or not, you should be able to take criticism, fair or unfair with grace and dignity. This automatically neutralizes the verbally malicious, who once they find a chink in your armour, go straight for raw flesh.

    Moslems, sensitive to criticism of their religious beliefs, or all other beliefs, should stay in their backward countries, with their backward dogmatic thinking. They should not come to the west where verbal irreverence is the norm, or used to be the norm.

    The West, should not allow these people to immigrate into their countries for the very same reason plus the fact that an ignorant, unskilled and uneducated immigrant will have the devil of a time integrating into a highly industrialized society. The ones with religious baggage have a double cross on their backs.

    We have enough pizza delivery persons and hangers on with nothing to do all day other than suck off the government free benefits bowl and shout into their $1200 cell phones. We dont need more, France does not need more.

    Yet, with the social problems these people bring with them on the refugee boats, the politicians allow more and more into the country. It must be like the old lady who finds one stray dog in an alley and brings him home. Soon others follow until the house becomes like a zoo.

    Then everyone is amazed that the house is infested with fleas and faeces, all the while welcoming more and more strays to reside therein.

    France and all other countries afflicted with the “stray dog syndrome”, deserve what they get !

  35. Anon[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ray Caruso

    But it’s the Jews who change name to fit in. Once fitted,they spread terror with sugar knife bring plague ,spread pornography, steal Fort Knox, and maim your sex organs.
    Following are some of those great con artists that your sexual partner love to memorialize in Paris and Vienna—- like David Samson and Albright Samson from Daud Sasson and Eill Boar Sasson, or like Begin from Boogeyman of Lithuania, ( or a genuine bouncer from Moldavia who still keeps that job at the gate of Israeli parliament) or like Schumer to flood China with opium, Europe and Arab with ruins and America with loss of power to live or to guard Israel’s interest.

    Don’t worry about stray terror . Think of the bigger picture. The biggest terror that breaks the previous record of the biggest terror keeps on appearing like a Halloween movie every year .

    Think of the benefit ,if Schumer said those words wearing Yiddish dress and yarmulke in Yiddish language into a poor ghetto neighborhood synagogue with the roaring of “ Israel YAWEH “.follloing his speech .

  36. ivan says:
    @Talha

    Who is talking about boycotts? Don’t buy if you don’t want to. No one in France except the Jews who play both sides will miss the business. Rather we are talking about your fellow Muslims encouraging the lynching of random French people, for what is essentially beyond their control. And don’t bullshit about Mohamedans not knowing anything about the anti-religious nature of the French state. If the Catholics were in charge, not one Muslim would be allowed in France.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @anonymouslim
  37. ivan says:
    @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    When they wear henna on their beards which turn into a bronze colour, they sure look like they are of one race.

  38. ivan says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    Maybe you haven’t gone out much. Their prophet is out range of criticism.

    • Replies: @Ilya G Poimandres
  39. geokat62 says:
    @Talha

    Honestly, I just wish they had made this very clear from the beginning before allowing Muslims to immigrate there…

    Now, that doesn’t make much sense, does it Talha. If (((your))) objective is to destroy the West, why would you do something as stupid as to tell the truth?

    How do you say “Divide and Rule” in Hebrew?

  40. lavoisier says: • Website
    @ADL Pyramid of Hate

    Agree.

    Mr Shamir does an admirable job of deconstructing the myth of Charlie Hebdo as being an admirable publication defending the rights of free speech.

    The writers there are the worst kinds of people: Vile hypocrites who relish in offending the powerless and who are delusional enough to think of themselves as defenders of free speech.

    Excellent article.

    • Agree: Talha, Alfred
    • Replies: @ivan
  41. Agent76 says:

    Jan 10, 2015 Charlie Hebdo Shootings – Censored Video

    This is footage of the Charlie Hebdo shootings which has been restricted or taken down from a number of websites. As you will see it contains no blood, gore or graphic violence. It does however punch a major hole in the official story.

    Oct 25, 2020 Muslims all over the world call for boycott of French products

    Dec 13, 2010 Making a Killing: The Untold Story of Psychotropic Drugging – Full Movie (Documentary)

    This video provides the facts about psychotropic drugs and the huge profits they create for the pharmaceutical industry. These drugs are not safe and have not been on the market long enough to provide sufficient long term studies regarding their effects. These drugs do cause addiction, however most “doctors” would call this dependence because you do not have to take an increasing dose over time. They are completely fine with you being addicted to the same amount of any given drug on a daily basis.

  42. @Talha

    Honestly, I just wish they had made this very clear from the beginning before allowing Muslims to immigrate there, namely; “If you come here, you must adopt (post)modernist enlightenment values – we will grant you freedom of religion, only insofar as it is congruent with our values after we review, revise and rubber-stamp it. Now sign on the dotted line, shave your beard and take off the hijab.”

    Don’t be childish, they would have signed the paper to get in and go back to their old ways inmediately, basically trying to transform the countries they want to live in into the low trust shitholes they just run away from. Talk about Islamic wisdom.

    And what the hell are “(post) modernist enlightenment values”? We are talking about very basic civility here, the basic concept of St. Augustin’s proverb “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” but of course, this type of civility must be exclusive to Christians it seems…

    Pissing off nearly 2 billion Muslims by taking a criminal act that should have been made an example of by severely punishing the perpetrator to the fullest extent of the law (perhaps allowing Paty’s surviving relatives a chance to bring back the guillotine in downtown Paris and use it on the killer – an eye for an eye, a head for a head…?)

    And this statement by you, the official “moderate Muslim” on this site proves what, Muslims need pre middle ages – lex talionis- Babylonian criminal justice systems with its usual punishments (Iran’s public hangings from cranes or Saudi’s beheadings in “chop chop” square come to mind)?

    The age old question that I put to you, Tahla the “moderate” Muslim is, are Muslims fit to live among Westerners in civilised society, as we native Westerners understand it? It does not seem so if we take the result of certain polls into consideration:

    https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

    [MORE]

    Notice results in Russia were made more palatable by changing the basic question, pure statistical trickery, and notice no European countries were included, not to alarm natives too early I guess.

    Results in your country Pakistan are pretty damning, a cool 76% favour death penalty for abandoning Islam, and 50% plus consider honor killings justified sometimes, 84% want medieval sharia to be the law of the land.

    Turks, arguably the closest in the Muslim world to possess a Western style society are reversing decades of secularism. Note full 12% want sharia in Turkey. Possibly more.

    42% in Russia (!)

    66% of French “youfs” want blasphemy punished by law, basically a form of sharia.

    https://www.unz.com/gdurocher/poll-66-of-young-muslims-in-france-want-blasphemy-to-punished-by-law/

    Let’s stop with the trite CAIR PR campaign and citing the Quran and dive straight into the meat and potatoes of the Muslim integration problem in the West.

    What those results tell you about the compatibility of Islamic culture with Western civilisation?

    Should we ban freedom of religion just because of Muslims? Would that even be enough?

    • Agree: TKK
    • Thanks: ivan
  43. ivan says:
    @lavoisier

    That stupid magazine is not circulated anywhere. It is not necessary for school homework for instance. One thinks of it as one thinks of a particularly vile public toilet. No one forced that magazine onto the Muslims . Their treatment of Christian themes is even worse. But no one is forced read it or adumbrate on it as though it was the Times Literary Supplement. The Muzzies felt strong enough to kill their staff in 2015. Well when the Muzzies do that the state has to respond. The Muzzies made Hebdo the king’s jester of the French state. The king cannot simply ignore that.

    • Agree: lavoisier
    • Replies: @lavoisier
  44. ivan says:
    @Carlos22

    All restrictions on free speech in the UK began with appeasing the Jews. Speech codes, aggravated assault, the Holocaust etc. It was for the Hebes that all that was done. The Muslims saw how successful the Jews were in their efforts to carve out an exalted niche for themselves and wanted the same for themselves. Calling someone a “Paki dog” or an “oven dodger” to his face is clearly an example of verbal abuse that should be punished; with if necessary a stint in prison. But the Law already has provisions for such intolerable verbal abuse. Instead the Jews wanted more : That somehow the same abuse leveled at themselves should be dispositive of a genocidal mindset, that the abuser was just one step away from starting the ovens, a hidden Nazi. Ever since the Jews managed to game the Law in their favour, it has not been possible to defend liberties or the law from first principles, since the inevitable retort would be that the Jews are an exalted species all by themselves, not bound by the same rules as the rest of us.

  45. Chris Moore says: • Website
    @padre

    Every Muslim is welcome in the liberal rainbow coalition, and the liberals will even arrange their transport from the Mideast — with one unconditional caveat: they’ve got to support Holocaust dogma.

    • Agree: ivan
  46. Talha says:
    @ivan

    Who is talking about boycotts?

    I am – did you bother to read my comment?

    Rather we are talking about your fellow Muslims

    Let’s step back here…you specifically stated “your inner Muslim jihadi” and “I had you tagged for a dissumulating fanatic”. While I specifically stated that the beheading was a criminal act that should have been prosecuted harshly (had the perpetrator survived). Furthermore, anyone killing people willy-nilly in churches and synagogues should also be hunted down and punished harshly. Anyone encouraging them should likewise be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. In what way was I encouraging any lynching or vigilantism?

    If the Catholics were in charge, not one Muslim would be allowed in France.

    Correct. The reason Muslims are in France is because it is post-Christian and that was an internal discussion France had. Otherwise Muslims would have been Deus Vult’ed them out of there in very short order. It is also why the French are pulling down hundreds of their old churches without encouragement from anybody:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @ivan
  47. ” It is more probable that (Islamic radicals) were brought in exactly for the purpose of creating a terrorist underground network, to frighten citizens into obedience. ”

    Nail on the head. The deep state knows full well that importing Somalis, Chechens, and other people of militant cultures and religions will provide the occasional bloody false flags necessary to manipulate the Western consciousness.

    So what if the immigrant murderers kill tens, hundreds or even thousands? These are pin pricks to the Leviathan. Their worth is to frighten the proles, to make them exchange liberty for dictatorship.

    It’s sick, like a zoo-keeper placing hyenas in with lambs. The blood is on the hands of those who arranged the meeting between killers and victims.

    • Agree: Oikeamielinen
  48. Talha says:
    @Cafe au lait

    they would have signed the paper to get in and go back to their old ways inmediately

    And if they did, it would have been very straightforward in deporting them for explicit violation or immigration fraud. They could have also said: “shave your beard, take off your hijab and eat this pork sausage and down this white wine while we watch.”

    And what the hell are “(post) modernist enlightenment values”?

    Start here:
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/postmodernism/

    “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”

    What does this mean? If it means stuff like; “obey the laws of the land”…then totally, Muslims are obligated to do so and should absolutely do this.

    If it means stuff like; “participate in gay pride parades and get drunk at your local bar”…no thanks.

    If the latter is what is meant, then, it is much better that Muslims get kicked out of the West completely and lose all of their dunya (material possessions) and cling steadfastly to their deen (religion). Losing dunya is well worth the cost of preserving your faith and practice and France would be doing them a huge favor by expelling them:

    the official “moderate Muslim”

    I’m a Muslim, I don’t play by the definitions others foist on me.

    lex talionis

    Read my statement carefully; that would have been up to the victim’s family – if they wanted and eye for an eye, I have no problems with them punishing in that way as a deterrent to others. It often gets the job done. If you’d rather do something else like imprison or exile or whatever, that’s fine as well.

    are Muslims fit to live among Westerners in civilised society, as we native Westerners understand it?

    Depends on what you mean. If you mean; should they obey the laws of the land – then yes, plenty of Muslims do this.

    If you mean; should Muslims in the West become assimilated to the point where they are just like other Westerners and take their religion as a hobby? Lord, I hope not.

    What those results tell you about the compatibility of Islamic culture with Western civilisation?

    That if Islamic culture ever gains wide demographic acceptance, it will transform a nation like France from what it currently is today. That should be pretty obvious to anyone that has paid attention to history.

    Peace.

  49. anon[353] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cafe au lait

    rench Airstrikes Kill Over 50 Islamic Fighters in Mali
    French operation took place after terror attacks in Nice and Paris
    Dave DeCamp Posted onNovember 2, 2020CategoriesNewsTagsFrance, Mali
    On Monday, the French government said it launched airstrikes that killed over 50 Islamic militants in Mali. The operation took place on Friday in an area near the borders of Nigeria and Burkina Faso.

    “On October 30 in Mali, the Barkhane force conducted an operation that neutralized more than 50 jihadists and confiscated arms and material,” French Defense Minister Florence Parly.”

    Now it makes sense for the common voting age French . This was the reason they had supported and would support placing French Army , French clergy, merchants and philosophers in the same military tents erected in the African countries and in Iraq . May be tats why they fall with little demur to the demands for the sanction on Iran.

    This Fight Is Not Over .

    If you dont like the hand wringing of the “moderate Mulsim” then someone or all from that t moderate Muslim will step up and say that they dont like the mewing of the human right ,anti war , interfaith activist, academics ether .

  50. Talha says:
    @Cafe au lait

    And as far as this gem:

    66% of French “youfs” want blasphemy punished by law, basically a form of sharia.

    Plenty of countries from all across the world and various cultures do this – it’s not even controversial:
    “Russia
    In 2013, the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation was amended with provisions criminalizing activities aimed at insulting the religious feelings of believers.[140] Article 148 of the Criminal Code provides for a fine or up to one year of imprisonment or forced labor for “actions demonstrating disrespect to the society if performed with the purpose of insulting religious feelings of believers.” The amount of the fine and the term of imprisonment are significantly increased if these actions were performed in places designated for religious services and ceremonies. Reportedly, these “blasphemy amendments” were added to the Code because of the legal vacuum discovered during the trial of three members of the Pussy Riot music band who conducted a protest performance at a cathedral in Moscow and were sentenced to two years of imprisonment for hooliganism.[141]> Since 2013, only a few cases have been prosecuted under article 148 of the Criminal Code; the harshest sentence was two hundred hours of public service for arguing the divinity of the Bible in an online social network discussion.[142]”

    “Switzerland
    Article 261 of the Swiss Criminal Code provides as follows:

    Any person who publicly and maliciously insults or mocks the religious convictions of others, and in particularly their belief in God, or maliciously desecrates objects of religious veneration, any person who maliciously prevents, disrupts or publicly mocks an act of worship, the conduct of which is guaranteed by the Constitution,
    or any person who maliciously desecrates a place or object that is intended for a religious ceremony or an act of worship the conduct of which is guaranteed by the Constitution, is liable to a monetary penalty not exceeding 180 daily penalty units.[159]

    Between 1960 and 2010, there were a total of 161 court cases dealing with article 261 of the Swiss Criminal Code. On average, there were three convictions per year.[162] ”

    ‘Thailand [67]
    The State Department’s InternationalReligiousFreedomReportfor 2012: Thailand stated that “the 1962 Sangha Act [last amended in 2007] specifically prohibits the defamation or insult of Buddhism and the Buddhist clergy. Violators of the law can face up to one year’s imprisonment or fines of up to 20,000 baht (approximately [US]$667).”[68] The 2015 report contained a similar statement but did not mention the name of the law.[69]”

    “Brazil
    Article 208 of the Brazilian Penal Code punishes with detention of one month to one year or a fine a person who mocks someone publicly for reasons of his/her belief or religious role, prevents or disturbs a religious ceremony or practice, or publicly vilifies an act or object of religious worship.[188] If the conduct involves the use of violence, the punishment is increased by one-third, without prejudice to the punishment corresponding to the act of violence itself.[189]”
    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/blasphemy/index.php

    Peace.

  51. Anyone who makes fun of the prophet will pay the price. Is that so hard to understand?

  52. ivan says:
    @Talha

    LOL!! You are a good dissimulator. Which is why I don’t normally reply to your posts. You’ll simply use it to spread some more taquiya. The point is the French state cannot but take the position it took with respect to the killing of the teacher, if it wants to keep its vaunted ideals respected. You know the story : The teacher showed something offensive to Muslims. Therefore he had to be beheaded. And the rest of us should not do anything other than consider the precious feelings of Muslims. Well then, the Muslims should leave France for the good of everyone, including their own precious selves.

    • Replies: @Talha
  53. Hillaire says:
    @Fiendly Neighbourhood Terrorist

    The french kletpocracy like those in the rest of the western so called democracies is a degenerate, defective, dystopic broth.

    A rotten festering stew, marinated in greed and corruption skippered by genetic aliens that crawled out of semitic bazzars in antiquity, scions of temple prostitutes interbred with dysgenic nordic aristocrats that couldn’t find their syphilitic cocks in a whore house.

    Looting and pillaging there own treasuries, their greed and avarice is equalled only by their hatred of Europa and it’s indigenous peoples.

  54. @ivan

    I talk to Muslims openly when I get the chance. I read a lot of theology and don’t approach the debate from an arrogant point of view, and none that I have met have been anything less than accommodative.

    They value their faith sure, but they don’t attack unless attacked generally imo.

    • Replies: @ivan
  55. Talha says:
    @ivan

    dissimulator…taquiya

    (sigh) Like I haven’t heard that one before.

    Which is why I don’t normally reply to your posts.

    Good, don’t. It’s obviously not worth my time to respond. Though others may be reading, so that may make it worth the while.

    The point is the French state cannot but take the position it took with respect to the killing of the teacher

    OK – if there is no choice but to project images on government buildings, do it to virtue signal for “muh blasphemy”…and deal with the boycotts.

    if it wants to keep its vaunted ideals respected.

    “Vaunted ideals”…meh, I think Mr. Shamir put that myth to rest.

    And the rest of us should not do anything other than consider the precious feelings of Muslims.

    Uh no, people can punish those who kill and advocate for violence without projecting blasphemous images on government buildings as policy; it’s not rocket science.

    Well then, the Muslims should leave France for the good of everyone, including their own precious selves.

    Make it happen, I’m not stopping you. And French products can stay off the shelves in Muslim countries. The influx of Muslims from France can be employed locally in the countries they end up to make up the demand of those products – sounds like a fair trade to me.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Alden
  56. barr says:

    Theoretically, it is illegal in France to insult Muslim (or Christian) beliefs. The European Court of Human Rights had ruled so explicitly in a judgment in the case of Otto-Preminger-Institut v. Austria: “The respect for the religious feelings of believers guaranteed by Article 9 can legitimately be considered violated by provocative images of objects of religious veneration, such images can be considered a malicious violation of the spirit of tolerance, which should also be a feature of a democratic society.”

    In the case of Wingrove v. the United Kingdom:

    “… Respect for the religious feelings of believers can become the basis for the state’s legal restriction of the publication of provocative images of objects of religious veneration.”

    In the case of Pussy Riot v. Russia:“Given that the applicants’ presentation took place in a cathedral, which is a place of religious worship, the Court considers that (the State’s) interference can be regarded as having the legitimate aim of protecting the rights of third parties.”

    wow!

    Thanks for the information .

    By the way, can someone publish nasty instatagram,false stories personal foibles compromising pictures of the cartoonist and of the owners of the CH and of the donors to the magazine ? Above all ,they have forfeited the rights of having privacy of any sort by getting involved in an illegal program. Even if the laws are amended ,these people are now “public Figure” and cant claim any protection from similar filth involving their daughters sons mistress and prostitutes and mock /expose to their links to broader organization which also should be available for free foreplay .

  57. ivan says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    I don’t talk to Muslims openly in either Malaysia or Indonesia, nor for that matter in India about their religion. Suffice to say that perhaps you are either meeting a better quality of Muslim or they are in a minority in the countries where you meet them.

    It is a punishable offence to try and convert a Muslim in either Malaysia or Indonesia. Converts out of Islam have been sent to reeducation camps in Malaysia. The reason you don’t hear much from these large Islamic countries, is that the minority Chinese, tribals and Indians have internalised the lesson that there is a steep price to pay to tangle even remotely with Muslims and their beliefs for good or for ill.

    There was a Chinese mayor of Jakarta who was put away (for two years) as a blasphemer merely for claiming that (perhaps mistakenly) the Koran does not forbid Muslims from having non-Muslims as leaders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basuki_Tjahaja_Purnama

    Your mileage may of course differ, but I’ve lived among Muslims for decades to know that the overwhelming majority of them are not the kind of “live and let live” paragon that for example the poster Talha appears to be.

  58. @Anon

    I don’t understand where this meme originated from, most likely due to the fact that a lot of the counter-jihad stuff is funded by Zionists like Ezra Levant and Robert J. Shillman (the jokes write themselves), that Whites and Muslims must unite to face our true enemy, the Jews. Anyone who dislikes Saracens is thus obviously a Zionist shill, as nobody could ever dislike the loveable North Africans and Arabs and their wonderful sociobiology…

    As far as I am concerned, what is really happening is that Muslims in Europe are in lockstep with Jews who share many similarities with them such as the barbaric practices of male genital mutilation and ritual slaughter of meat. The end of this article merely endorses the typical anti-White narratives of the native French deserving this because of colonisation.

    The truth is the Muslims are here in large part due to Jewish lobbying and political activity, but even if we took out the “Jewish incitement” from the equation, Muslims are still the enemies of Europeans and there can be no modus vivendi between us as it currently stands i.e. the two living in the same geographical area under the same political system.

    And yes, a lot of Muslims are as Gleimhart Mantooso describes them.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @AnonStarter
  59. @ivan

    From the anti-France protest in Jakarta, Indonesia:

    • Replies: @Ivan
    , @Reg Cæsar
  60. Dumbo says:

    The age old question that I put to you, Tahla the “moderate” Muslim is, are Muslims fit to live among Westerners in civilised society, as we native Westerners understand it?

    This is a false issue. “Moderate” or not, all need to go away. They don’t belong. Africans too, even if they are “Christian”. And Asians. What’s wrong with having your own nation with your own people. Muslims and Africans do, in their continents. Let Europeans be Europeans.

    • Replies: @anonymouslim
  61. German_reader says:
    @ivan

    the kind of “live and let live” paragon that for example the poster Talha appears to be.

    Talha has been very clear in the past that his ideal form of government is an Islamic state with harsh punishments (like public flogging, prison or exile) for “blasphemy” and “apostasy”, and that he thinks Muslim fathers should have legal power to prohibit their daughters from marrying non-Muslims (kind of ironic, since his own wife is an ethnic Swedish convert to Islam). He’s also made it clear that he believes Western societies will eventually become Islamic and adopt such a model, and that he’s in the US as a kind of missionary for Islam. He’s very far from a “live and let live” Muslim who’s content to keep his faith to himself, without any political implications, as naive Westerners would imagine because he’s always so deceptively polite.

    • Thanks: FB
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Ivan
  62. @ivan

    Yeah, the Quran is imperfect imo – a bit too much of everything, peaceful and offensive at the same time. It’s no Dhamma, but there is an in to play to a person’s better side. I float amongst Western Muslims – they have read their texts, and make up their own minds.. certainly not exactly the absolute obedience Islam asks for, but faiths develop. I think it has potential, even if it is touchy.. that makes sense to me too since western society has been oppressing Muslim nations for a good long while now.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  63. TG says:

    Islam is a religion of peace and all who say different must be killed.

    • Replies: @Metropole
  64. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Talha has been very clear in the past that his ideal form of government is an Islamic state with harsh punishments (like public flogging, prison or exile) for “blasphemy”

    Incorrect. This is what I stated on another thread:

    And yes, I have been on the record that; if there was a overwhelming Muslim majority in a Western country, I would personally have no problems with instituting a law against blasphemy. Not anything like execution and such; the school I follow is fairly flexible on the issue – financial penalties will do the job just fine, imprisonment for repeat offenders, etc. I expect Muslims as a minority to obey the law of the land – thus they cannot go stab-happy on cartoonists – and I expect non-Muslim minorities to obey the law of the land if the rules change…If anybody is seriously following what I have been saying in my arguments, then it should be clear that the school I follow is quite flexible in its punishment for blasphemy. Thus each Muslim people or nation has the choice to decide as they like. When I was discussing Pakistan, I’m 100% fine with them electing to go the more harsh route such as flogging and long terms of imprisonment and the like. That’s their land and their prerogative and I don’t live there anymore.

    So those are my words. And those punishments are already here is certain countries in Europe (as I cited).

    “apostasy”

    As I stated before in a detailed reponse on the subject:

    The issue of apostasy and the death penalty is being discussed at the highest levels of Muslim scholarship right now. The debate is actually considering the same question; have the circumstances changed such that the ruling is no longer applicable in a society where citizenship and its responsibilities have changed significantly enough from prior paradigms. Dr. Ramond Harvey has one of the best short articles on the subject based upon scrutinizing the works of Imam Sarakhsi (ra) who outlined the principles upon which the Hanafi school’s stance was based:
    “Thus we can see that al-Sarakhsi’s understanding of the issue is very much tied up with the political situation of the Muslim community and the meaning of apostasy as a political act and – in early Islamic history – one of hostility and war…His usage would suggest that al-kufr al-tari’ could be fairly well equated to ‘apostasy simpliciter’ (apostasy without qualification, usually understood in this discourse as apostasy in faith without necessarily comprising other further actions against the community), while ‘irtadd’ (apostasy) and ‘al-israr ‘ala al-kufr’ ([violent] perseverance in rejecting faith) refer to apostasy with a distinct political connotation. In al-Sarakhsi’s view, it seems it is this political element on which the death penalty is ultimately to be predicated, on the basis of maslahah (general welfare).”

    The Muslim world does not have a centralized authority in these matters. There is no pope. There is no way (barring a reconstituted worldwide caliphate) that there will be a unanimity in interpretation regarding how to deal with a personal apostasy (as opposed to apostasy coupled with a political act of treason – as per Imam Sarakhsi’s statements) in the context of a nation-state model which is a very recent development in human history. Some countries will ignore it while some will take it as a cause for capital punishment (and anywhere in between) – in a rule that is found to be flexible and upon which scholars differ, you will always get adoption of the rule that reflects local sentiment.

    Anybody is free to look through my archives for more details on the subject using the relevant terms.

    he thinks Muslim fathers should have legal power to prohibit their daughters from marrying non-Muslims

    Incorrect. They should have the legal power to prohibit their daughters from marrying anyone (Muslim or non-Muslim) that they do not approve of.

    kind of ironic, since his own wife is an ethnic Swedish convert to Islam

    Not ironic at all. We are both Muslims and I had permission from her father.

    He’s also made it clear that he believes Western societies will eventually become Islamic

    Yup, the time frame is up for grabs though, may take many centuries.

    he’s in the US as a kind of missionary for Islam

    Yup.

    He’s very far from a “live and let live” Muslim who’s content to keep his faith to himself, without any political implications

    No; I actually straddle the spectrum of “live and let live” along with political implications. If Muslims become dominant in France, you can likely kiss public gay pride parades in Paris goodbye. But that doesn’t also mean I’m for tossing random gay people from the Eiffel Tower like Daesh.

    deceptively polite.

    I’m polite because that is the best way to engage in discourse, but I have always been clear and forthright about my stances and beliefs over the years. Anyone can search my archives for these matters. I not only cite plenty of academic articles but direct statements from Muslim scholarship as well as classical texts. If you don’t like what you read, that’s not my problem; my teachers have taught us that, we are only obligated to make things as clear as we can and let the chips fall where they may.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @geokat62
  65. Micron says:

    Listen people. It is estimated there are upwards of 5 million Arabs and Blacks in France. Among people younger than 18, they represent more than 40%.

    We ethnic French are dying out. Ethnic whites are aging. That was the purpose of this (((masonic))) 220-year experiment we call the Republic. Our original sin was that so many French people at the time voluntarily chose to participate and to in effect kill our king, which was the symbol for fatherhood and tradition, and renege on their past.

    It’s too late. Civil war is inevitable. Or worse, some kind of anarchy / local overlords. Demography is destiny. It’s not a question of Charlie this or Charlie that ; in the grand scheme of things it’s miniscule, a random trigger, it could have been anything. Today it’s Muhammad’s caricatures, tomorrow Muslims will require holidays for the Aid el-Kebir and say having to work on this day violates their conscience.

    It cannot end well. Two equally messianic ideologies are squaring off against each other – republicanism versus islam. Only one can survive. And we the remaining sane, ethnically-conscious French will be crushed in-between.

    • Replies: @karel
  66. @Cyrano

    Don’t be so rash in your judgement. As you rightly point out the Balkans are just somewhat behind the times but that Western degeneracy and the Muslim invaders are on the way and already making inroads. Let’s see if Balkan resistance will be any more effective. My bet is that they’ll just copy the West in this regard too as they do in almost everything else, but usually in a cheap parody version. It’s all good being loud with your mouth but where’s the action?

    • Replies: @Joe Levantine
  67. German_reader says:
    @Talha

    If Muslims become dominant in France, you can likely kiss public gay pride parades in Paris goodbye.

    imo it’s somewhat disingenuous that you’re always bringing up examples like “gay pride parades”, because you know full well that these are very recent innovations (would have been unthinkable in most Western countries as recently as the 1950s) which are rejected by most commenters here and not seen as the core of Western identity in any way. Same with those idiotically vulgar Charlie cartoons about your “prophet”. But of course an Islamization of France and Europe would have a lot more far-reaching consequences, make any criticism of Islam impossible and in the end be immensely destructive of Europe’s cultural heritage, through outright vandalism or simple neglect.
    Anyway, I will admit that at least you’re being honest, the problem really is with the fools who still don’t get what your end goal is and who are unwilling to take measures to prevent it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  68. @Ilya G Poimandres

    None of this would be a problem if we weren’t so mixed up by this globalism.

    • Agree: Talha
  69. Alden says:
    @Talha

    Reading your comments proves that you approve of murdering a school teacher who used the standard government mandated lesson plan in a social studies class.

    Being a cynic, I believe in the 3MMMs money motive message.

    Your motive and message are both enthusiastic approval of murder.

    You don’t belong in a country where murder is illegal.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @barr
    , @Talha
  70. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    would have been unthinkable in most Western countries as recently as the 1950s

    Uh hunh, and when exactly were millions of Muslims from around the world allowed into Western countries in the 1950s? The reason Muslims are there in the first place is because the West is no longer the West of the 1950s. You are putting the cart before the horse.

    But of course an Islamization of France and Europe would have a lot more far-reaching consequences

    Big time. I literally said upstream in the thread:
    “…if Islamic culture ever gains wide demographic acceptance, it will transform a nation like France from what it currently is today. That should be pretty obvious to anyone that has paid attention to history.”

    I will admit that at least you’re being honest

    There simply is no reason to be otherwise; I mean, even if people hate what they are hearing, that’s not our problem. That’s between you and God. We are only responsible to being as faithful in conveying the message as possible. There are enough people that like the message; so the product sells itself especially when other franchises in this particular market are going broke.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  71. vot tak says:

    The the charlie hebdo psywar porn rag is a zionazi-gay operation. The french regime is a zionazi-gay operation. Like the americans, and the anglo countries, france is an israeli colony.

  72. barr says:
    @Alden

    Murder is horrible just like war of choice .

    Having said that the teacher was aware of the psychological harms it would cause in a biased way ( hurting Muslim kids and increasing racism in non- Muslim kids and hurting the inclusiveness the French is trying to establish . )

    Now my question what was he teaching to the kids? Was he teaching the complex case of freedom of expression or aesthetic beauty ? In that case he should include the orgy and sex tapes as well or French roles in murdering non French non whites in Africa and Arab.

    “You don’t belong in a country where murder is illegal.” Militant French society’s cheer leading brigands and current supporters of French polices( that never fails to support killings of civilians somewhere else by France’s master ) don’t belong to this world .

    • Replies: @Alden
  73. Talha says:
    @Alden

    Reading your comments proves that you approve of murdering a school teacher who used the standard government mandated lesson plan in a social studies class.

    Nope. Your incomprehension of my words are your problem, not mine. I used clear English language. Now, if you think I’m just lying…OK, get in line – not about to waste my time begging you to believe me.

    And the rest of the comment is throw away based on the initial misunderstanding.

    You don’t belong in a country where murder is illegal.


    Peace.

    • Replies: @TKK
    , @Alden
  74. Blade says:
    @Cyrano

    I am from the Balkans, we had to put up with them for 500 years. The 500 years that we’ll never get back and for exactly the same length of time that we fell behind western Europe civilizationaly.

    Signs of a typical Balkan idiot can be observed here. Blame Turks for all their failures. As if you had anyone of real importance before Turks took over. Bacon was still English and Aquinas an Italian. There isn’t a single Balkan scientist or a philosopher of any significance for the 1000+ years before Turks. Don’t pretend as if all Christians are the same and would have the exact same development if it wasn’t for Turks. Where were all the great artists, scientists and philosophers before the Turks came? Save for Greece BCE there was nothing in Balkans for the previous 1000+ years until the Turks came unless you count fucking goats as a civil achievement. As soon as Turkish rule ended you started massacring and genociding each other, so much for “we wuz Western civilization.”

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  75. German_reader says:
    @Talha

    There are enough people that like the message; so the product sells itself especially when other franchises in this particular market are going broke.

    LOL, “product”, “franchises”, “market”. A hilariously American thing to say. I suppose that’s a sign of acculturation, albeit on a pretty superficial level.
    But despite your constant claims to the contrary (muh white converts), your “product” of course isn’t all that attractive to those who haven’t been born into it, probably one of the reasons for the constant Muslim temper tantrums.

    • Replies: @Talha
  76. anon[198] • Disclaimer says:

    As a Muslim, it is not the fact that France permits the publication of deliberate agitprop aimed at inciting social conflict that I found objectionable. I support free speech, and I think it incorrect to compare the publication of cartoons with e.g. Pussy Riot defiling sacred Christian spaces. No one is forcing anyone to read the garbage produced by C.H. or anyone else.

    What I found entirely unacceptable was that twit Macron saying “Islam is in crisis.” Au contraire, M. Macron.

    Mr. Macron, it is France that is in crisis, not Islam. How else to characterize the condition of a thinking nation that used to put froth Voltaire and Candide as caustic commentary on religion, and now is trumpeting Charlie Hebdo’s double digit IQ content. And in general, it is natural to ask the question “what sort of mentality chooses to denigrate sacred symbols and personages of others?”

    To go from Voltaire to Charlie Hebdo is indicative of a nation suffering an intellectual and philosophical nose dive. That is the actual crisis, and it is a French and more broadly Western crisis.

    Islam is resurgent, vigorous, and clearly “The Answer”, Mr. President. The crisis we Muslims have is that our leadership is false. In the same way that a Cabal actor is playing Pope (Satanist), another Cabal actor is playing Supreme Leader (Freemason Grand Orient of France) and the current Dalai Lama is a CIA asset.

    So in terms of world religions, the only crisis is the wolves in sheeps clothing on top of the clerical structures. A review of their response to the remarks made by the French president makes it clear. Here we are, with a man named Israel Shamir making a much better showing defending the faithful.

  77. lavoisier says: • Website
    @ivan

    I am a free speech absolutist. I do not support the murderous Islamic fanatics who decide it is just to behead someone who insults their prophet and their religion.

    The insults are bad taste, yes, but they should be protected speech.

    I would just like to see Charlie Hebdo take their vile insults into the sacred halls of the Jews.

    When this happens, I will think they are a legitimate organization defending free speech.

    Until then: Bottom dwelling cowardly scum.

    • Agree: Skeptikal, Ivan
    • Replies: @Ivan
  78. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    A hilariously American thing to say.

    Yup.

    isn’t all that attractive to those who haven’t been born into it

    Given the long view of history, it’s doing just fine with the numbers given everything else and given how badly other religions are doing in bleeding numbers.

    Peace.

  79. TKK says:
    @Talha

    Tahla,

    If Muslims find French culture repellent, why do they accept such generous financial support from the Government, i.e. Non Believers?

    Do you find that type of doublethink troubling?

    We both know that if I went to live in a Muslim country, let’s use Turkey or Indonesia, as a Non Muslim- no government help would come my way. If I didn’t hustle, I would be sleeping on the beach or under a park bench.

    Do you find it disagreeable that Muslims move into Non Muslims countries, accept their largesse and benefits- then murder the very tax payers who keep them warm and fed- over petty slights?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Blade
  80. geokat62 says:
    @Talha

    And yes, I have been on the record that; if there was a overwhelming Muslim majority in a Western country, I would personally have no problems with instituting a law…

    Hey, Talha. Quick question…

    If Jewish supremacists saw fit to inject into Muslim countries the cultural Marxist poison they’ve injected into the West and they also promoted mass immigration from, say, China and India, to a point where these people soon represented an overwhelming non-Muslim majority in a Muslim country, would it bother you if these newly arrived people began instituting laws that reflected their values but not the values of the Muslim people?

    • Replies: @Talha
  81. FB says: • Website

    It’s true that the West has a Muslim problem…

    We see it pop up all the time, this disgusting violence against innocent folks, like this Chechen fanatic who beheaded the teacher in France…and now the killing spree in Vienna by a ‘North Macedonian’ which means an Albanian…

    The ‘religion of peace’ has a funny way of encouraging these kinds of barbarous acts, in countries where these people are GUESTS…

    We saw in France that the heinous acts of violence became inevitable after religious and community leaders went ballistic over the supposed ‘insult’ to their religion…

    Shamir makes some interesting points here, in respect to how similar insults against Jews, for instance, are frowned upon…BUT, the Jewish community doesn’t respond with inciting gruesome violence…they respond by lawyering up and taking it to the courts…

    Why don’t the Muslims try that, instead of inciting beheadings among their fanatics…?

    • Replies: @Blade
  82. @Ivan

    I had you tagged for a dissumulating fanatic from get go.

    Talha seems to be a passionate believer, but a fanatic? No more than all the other opinionated “fanatics” commenting on UR who are firm and uncompromising in their ideological, religious, political, or whatever viewpoints.

    • Thanks: Ivan
  83. Ivan says:
    @brabantian

    It’s mild since Covid restrictions are in place in Jakarta and other parts of Indonesia. That poster is pretty harmless by Indonesian standards. But I have to say that generally they don’t send their message out in the English language.

    • Replies: @anonymouslim
  84. Ivan says:
    @German_reader

    Yes he has a sophisticated veneer, much as Tariq Ramadan had. But everyone sees through it as you indicate. I am sure he is a pleasant fellow to have coffee with, but I don’t engage much with him since he has the habit of snowboarding every reply with a post twice as long as the previous one.

  85. Talha says:
    @TKK

    If Muslims find French culture repellent, why do they accept such generous financial support from the Government, i.e. Non Believers?

    Ask them, I don’t live in France. My teachers teach against living an existence off of handouts instead of being contributors. In fact, my teacher told us the advice his teacher passed to him; “Become so valuable to your employer that they wonder, ‘What would we do without this person?’”. If the French want to cut off welfare to them, go for it; that will probably convince most of these types of Muslims to go back to their places of origin.

    Do you find that type of doublethink troubling?

    Yes, see above.

    We both know that if I went to live in a Muslim country, let’s use Turkey or Indonesia, as a Non Muslim- no government help would come my way.

    I am not aware of the details of the social welfare system in those countries and how they apply to immigrants, naturalized citizens, etc. so I can’t say one way or the other. I can say with confidence that they wouldn’t be as generous as the benefits in the European countries, that’s for sure.

    Do you find it disagreeable that Muslims move into Non Muslims countries, accept their largesse and benefits- then murder

    Yes, very disagreeable and extremely unjust to their host societies.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: TKK
    • Replies: @What If
  86. Ivan says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    I disagree with the notion that Western societies have been oppressing Muslim countries for long. For far longer the Muslims have oppressed every other religion under the sun. Therefore it is a little hard to take their bona fides as honest interlocutors seriously. One who argues that the West oppresses Muslims should have the self-awareness to know that it is overmatched by the oppression that Muslims had inflicted on others and which continues even today in such countries as Pakistan.

    • Replies: @Ilya G Poimandres
  87. Talha says:
    @geokat62

    Big time. Which is why you don’t let this happen in the first place. Thankfully, Islam seems to have a prophylactic effect towards “cultural Marxist poison” and thus preventing this from happening from the get go.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  88. anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ray Caruso

    literally grungy, since they wipe their backsides without the aid of toilet papers.

    Lol! Better than you savages going around with a film of faeces rubbed-off on the inside of your clothes, from all that simply inadequate wiping. Then, all that piss on the front of your pants… fucking uncivilised savages! Are we all to believe that you lowlifes never get any faeces on your hands while you are wiping your backsides? Riiiight!

    Moslems rob, rape, and murder

    Lol! The usual trope of the deflecting whitevil faeces-for-brains. I find it hard to believe that with respect to “rape,” those Moslems would be any worse than your pagan godless “godmen.” Your fucking scum “godmen!,” who are supposed to guide your morality and spirituality!! Does the accursed western evilisation have any of that? I see a lot of masks there, but we all know the animals behind them. This essay is literally focuses on one such animal. I can also sense the vile hyena behind the mask of “Ray Caruso,” and so many others here.

    Moslems are our enemies, have always been our enemies, …

    I wholeheartedly agree. We are the enemies of the accursed who rebel, scheme and act against the One God of all existence. Do all or most Europeans fall under that category?

    and will be our enemies until the blessed day their death cult is wiped from the face of the planet.

    So, pray tell how are you going to wipe out the True Monotheism of Islam? With the abominations of Pagan Polytheist Mangods-worship of Christianity, Judaism, Hindooism, Buddhism? How? With the “brilliant and sublime truths” of the trinity, or perhaps the equally convoluted trimurthi? How? If your solution is to simply nuke all of us, does it still wipe out the Truth, which is the Oneness of God (Islam)?

    As you lowlifes try harder to vilify Islam, you bleed more of your kind towards Islam. Those are of the truly blessed.

    To hell with the Palestinians.

    The irony here, if you only knew, is beautiful. For the Pals you may wish hell on earth, but for you will be Hell for all eternity. The Pals will always be better off from the accursed likes of you.

    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
  89. Nothing like Jews and Mahometans telling Christians how to behave.

    There are three stages of Jihad and Shamir will not tell this truth to his readers

  90. geokat62 says:
    @Talha

    Thankfully, Islam seems to have a prophylactic effect towards “cultural Marxist poison” and thus preventing this from happening from the get go.

    We thought the same could be said of Christianity. If 600+ orgs move in, however, nothing can stop them.

    • Replies: @Talha
  91. @Ivan

    For far longer the Muslims have oppressed every other religion under the sun.

    I can say the same about every other faith, other than Buddhism and Jainism.

    From a text point of view, Islam does have its attacking passages, but for the most part they texts are defensive, as is jihad, but it is easy to misinterpret, I give you that. Especially since the prophet took up the sword in the end, and did seem to use it to spread the message offensively on occasion, for which I always criticise him.

    Not much difference with Christianity though – less textual basis for it, but the result is pretty similar! I don’t think there would be this much animosity though, if western nations had a sovereign backbone, didn’t import vast numbers of other cultures, and left other nations to their own lives.

    • Agree: Ivan
  92. @Cafe au lait

    I’m in two minds about this sharia law and who it should be applied to. In Muslim countries the thieving, corrupt and degenerate rulers and higher ups apply it mostly to those in the lower segments of society. Now it would be great if you could walk down the street and see the sheiks, judges, businessmen and even some sharia cops with amputated hands, and believe me some of them deserve it, instead of the petty thieves and pick-pockets. And if they were to eradicate dire poverty and inequality and build a just, decent society then maybe it wouldn’t need to be applied much anyway.

    • Replies: @Talha
  93. Talha says:
    @geokat62

    We thought the same could be said of Christianity.

    I mean anything is possible, I guess we’ll see. One of the things going for Islam are some very clear rules (the law) that are integrated with the doctrine from the beginning and have been adopted for many, many centuries.

    And we have the concept of consensus – which helps quite a bit.

    Again, time will tell…and we have been put on notice to be careful in watching out for this tendency:
    “The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said, ‘Verily, you will follow the path of those before you, step by step and inch by inch; if they entered the hole of a lizard, you would follow.’

    We said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and Christians?’

    The Prophet said, ‘Who else?’” – reported in Bukhari and Muslim

    Peace.

  94. anonymous[387] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Lol! You think we can’t see how fugly whitevil nationalist terrorists look like? The fugly hillbillies… the rednecks… the retarded looking Johnson… that evil mofer Bannon… that faggot Tommy Robinson…

    I could of course list out many “good looking” Muslims, but focusing on external beauty seems so shallow, no? Your accursed kind may delude yourselves that you have everything (including beauty, lol!), but your godless souls can only look forward to Hell. How helpful do you think all that dazzling white “beauty” 😀 will be, as y’all are thrashing in eternal torment?

    Mofers like you, Gleimhart Mantooso, and the many who will agree will you, can never see because Satan has captured your eyes, hearts and souls, by God’s curse on you.

  95. Blade says:
    @TKK

    let’s use Turkey or Indonesia, as a Non Muslim- no government help would come my way

    False. I don’t know about Indonesia, but Turkey doesn’t have discrimination based on race or religion in effect. If you are a Turkish citizen, and qualify for whatever government program, you would be able to receive it because no one asks your religion when you apply for help. Don’t spout nonsense here as if you are an expert on Turkey.

    • Replies: @TKK
  96. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I don’t understand where this meme originated from

    It isn’t a “meme” in the sense that a meme is typically transitory. Rather, it’s firmly based in the fact that the vast majority of anti-Islam propaganda originates with Zionists or Zionist sympathizers, many more than those you cite. They’re the primary promulgators of “Clash of Civilization” dogma.

    No, not every anti-Islam brigadier is a Zionist, but most of them have assimilated the same rhetoric so thoroughly, it’s difficult to distinguish among them.

    And yes, a lot of Muslims are as Gleimhart Mantooso describes them.

    So are a lot of non-Muslims, but if I were to offer gratuitous commentary about them I’m sure you’d just use this as an occasion to further vilify Muslims. And so on and so forth …

    The fact that so many here “agree” with it merely underscores their inability to rise above petty insult and focus upon more substantive complaints — another reason they’ll never be taken seriously.

  97. Blade says:
    @FB

    BUT, the Jewish community doesn’t respond with inciting gruesome violence…

    Not condoning violence but you pretty much eradicated Jews from Europe. Jews don’t have numbers to incite anything outside Israel.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  98. Not only did Charlie never offend Jews, they fired one of their collaborators over the sentence “that boy has a great future ahead of him” (il ira loin, ce petit), speaking about Sarkozy’s son converting to Judaism in order to marry the heiress of the wealthy Jewish family Darty.

  99. Blade says:

    Instead of getting mad at Muslims, the French should stop interfering in Sahel, Libya, Lebanon, Syria and so on. Until you do so, you get zero respect and any form of response to your violence is valid; including violence. Remember Goethe said “violence begets violence.” This is the direct consequence of French actions in Africa and ME. Until you stop being imperialists, don’t complain about being an empire, which by nature has to be multi-ethnic.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Beavertales
  100. @Commentator Mike

    Some East European countries have endured both Muslim occupation and communism whereas other East European countries have only endured communism. So far, East Europeans have proven to be more alert and less prone to political correctness than Western Europeans; though that begs the question: for how long?

    Two East European countries managed to keep third world invaders at bay: Poland and Hungary whereas only Italy in the Western block managed to take a brief stand under Salvini. Orban of Hungary was chastised by liberal deputies in the European Parliament for daring to call Europe a Christian civilisation. And Cyrano is right about the inconsideration towards Western Europeans towards East Europeans in general and the Balkans specifically when their civilisation declined under Muslim Ottoman rule and Constantinople was looted by the French crusaders and left to its fate against the Ottoman hordes in 1453.

    What we should remember is that after the English civil war that brought Cromwell to power, the Jews came back in force to an England that pretty much severed its relations with the maestro of European politics, the Vatican. From there on , John Dee had an enormous influence on English foreign affairs by controlling the English intelligence apparatus. And who was John Dee’s mentor? Well, none other than the chief Rabbi of Prague. From there on, the wealthy Jews have interbred with the English aristocracy and the new hybrid Jewish English race gradually shaped the fate of Europe by pushing the island of Britain into a leadership role in European and world affairs. Since ‘divide et impera’ has always been the modus operandi of the British oligarchy, we can expect that Muslim immigration into Europe to be put to good use in the service of a one world government by weakening the social fabric of Europe under the pretext of Liberalism. Meanwhile, the globalist Macron who cares about French identity as much as a Jew cares about Christian values, will not spare any opportunity to foment mayhem amidst French society by pitting Muslims against Christians thereby hitting the birds of Gilet Jaunes and rising French nationalism with the same stone of divide and conquer.

    From WWI to WWII to 9/11 to COVID 19, the train of world governance will keep its so far unstoppable journey, and religious strife as mentioned in Albert Pike’s Three Wars Letter to his brother in arms Giuseppe Mazzini will part and parcel of the Globalists’ strategy to put Christians and Muslims under their boot.

    • Replies: @Joe Levantine
    , @FB
    , @karel
  101. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    In Muslim countries the thieving, corrupt and degenerate rulers and higher ups apply it mostly to those in the lower segments of society.

    Yup – and we were warned about this:
    “The people before you were destroyed because they used to inflict the legal punishments on the poor and forgive the rich…” – reported in Bukhari

    Peace.

  102. Another thought-provoking article from Mr. Shamir.

    The mainstream media seemingly never examine the inconsistent standards on free speech limits which Mr. Shamir brilliantly illuminates in this article.

    One can only speculate on what would happen if our private thoughts could be known.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  103. @Joe Levantine

    Correction : the inconsideration of Western Europeans towards Eastern Europeans…

  104. geokat62 says:
    @Tyler Durden

    Might you be the same Tyler Durden of Zero Hedge?

  105. Alden says:
    @barr

    Murder is murder and your answer to my writing that is proof you approve, nay, applaud murder.

  106. Alden says:
    @Talha

    Murder is murder and you approve of murder. The reason you approve of the murder of Paty is irrelevant. Some murder over parking spaces. Some murder in drunken rages

    A Muslim murdered a teacher over a nation wide mandated school lesson plan. And you justify and approve of that murder.

    Murder is murder, whether over a parking space or lesson plan

    • Replies: @Talha
  107. FB says: • Website
    @Joe Levantine

    Since ‘divide et impera’ has always been the modus operandi of the British oligarchy, we can expect that Muslim immigration into Europe to be put to good use in the service of a one world government by weakening the social fabric of Europe under the pretext of Liberalism.

    This is typical of the debilitating blind spot of the reactionary right, and is of course a constant meme on this website…the idea of ‘replacing’ whites with colored folks, as some kind of ‘liberal’ religion…

    Whereas the REAL reason is much more prosiac…namely that predatory capitalism NEEDS immigration in order to survive, the same way you or I or any living organism needs oxygen…

    If one examines closely the way that modern capitalist economies operate, it becomes explicit that they need PERPETUAL GROWTH…ie an economy must grow each year, or else it is considered in recession [if there is no growth in only half the calendar year]…

    This is due to the fact that we are locked into a financial cycle where money is created SOLELY as debt, and that debt carries automatic interest with it…the result is that each passing year, the economy MUST grow bigger, simply to pay for the piled up interest in previous years…

    Mathematically, this is the mirror image of the Ponzi Scheme, where new investors must be brought in continuously or the thing collapses…only in finance capitalism new BORROWERS must be brought into the Ponzi system every year, or it will of course collapse…

    Each and every Muslim or brown person that is brought in represents a small milk cow [or goat] for the financial giant squid that runs our existence…each and every one of them will take out a bank loan for a car, a credit card, a house, and on and on…there should be no need to remind folks that a bank’s assets are its LOAN PORTFOLIO…

    This is the ONLY reason why the entire western world has been transformed by runaway immigration in the postwar era…it is a SYSTEMATIC REQUIREMENT…

    Now here’s the funny part…every country in Europe and the rest of the European ‘west’ could do things very differently…there is no law in nature that says an economy MUST grow every year, or that more and more interest-loaded debts must be added to the balance sheet every year…

    There is no such requirement…that is only a requirement for the existence of a PARASITE CLASS that lives off the avails of capitalist lending usury…the entire oligarchy that runs our societies is fully committed to this model of leeching off a captive population…that is what they do and that is what they believe in…

    But there is no actual need for it…we could get rid of all of it, simply by taking control and doing things the way they should be done…FOR OUR BENEFIT AS ORDINARY PEOPLE…

    Now, there is a little more to this story…before this model really got refined in the postwar era, the west was largely committed to imperialism and colonialism, which were hugely profitable for that same parasite class of capitalists and ‘elites’…

    When, postwar, the overt and direct milking of these overseas ‘possessions’ became outmoded, and as the economy shifted into the said perpetual growth Ponzi system, it became natural for the folks in those colonial possessions to migrate right back to the ‘home’ country…Pakis from India to the UK, Algerians and other North Africans to France, etc…even Germany which really had no overseas colonies to speak of [Britain and France didn’t want to share, and fought WW1 over the issue], decided to import millions of Turks, first as ‘gastarbeiter’ literally guest laborers…who of course became permanent…

    This fit in perfectly with the predatory capitalist plan for importing warm bodies for their Perpetual Ponzi Pyramid…

    And there is yet another dimension to this…in the last few decades we saw the west trying to use the Muslims as a cudgel against their enemies, most notably Russia and Serbia, but also China now with the Uighurs…not to mention against Kadaffi in Libya and Assad in Syria, and also still using these Islamist elements in ongoing maneuverings in Iraq and Afghanistan…

    Some of these machinations have resulted in spectacular in-your-face explosions, like the huge refugee influx after they destroyed Libya and Syria with their pet Jihadists…

    So a complicated can of worms for sure, but none of it has anything to do with any kind of ‘liberal’ quasi-religion…sure, once these people are here it is necessary to find some kind of modus vivendi so that people can still live and function in society…hence there is a lot of preaching about tolerance etc…but mostly this is pragmatic stuff…unless you are going to kick all these people out you’re going to have to find some kind of accommodation, and of course the white folks are going to be asked to carry most of that burden…that’s just the EASY BUTTON, since we have become quite obedient sheep…

    Now right wingers need to learn these basic dynamics of how the world really works…we are being taken advantage of simply because we buy into the most egregious of the lies, which is the sanctity of capitalism itself…that is how they win…by convincing us that There Is No Alternative [TINA] we naturally don’t question ANYTHING properly…

    That is the most basic trick in the book…if you want to keep people from knowing that the Ponzi system NEEDS unlimited immigration, then the first thing you need to do is to convince the sheeple that they need this capitalist system to begin with…

    • Agree: Joe Levantine
    • Replies: @Joe Levantine
  108. @Nodwink

    Space exploration is irrelevant to religious zealotry, muslim, christian or otherwise.
    One can be pro science and religious at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.

    • Replies: @Nodwink
  109. AaronB says:
    @Ivan

    had you tagged for a dissumulating fanatic from get go.

    Lol, you are way more astute than me. Talha had me fooled for a long time. I actually believed he was a gentle Sufi for a fairly long time. Several other people figured him out early on too, but not me. Sometimes I can be a bit too naive

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Ivan
  110. @Talha

    Some-one commented recently that Mosques in Russia are required to fly the Russian flag above any Islamic banner.
    You are here on sufferance is the clear message.

    • Replies: @Talha
  111. Talha says:
    @Blade

    the French should stop interfering in Sahel, Libya, Lebanon, Syria and so on

    Yup.

    any form of response to your violence is valid; including violence

    This is not correct; not from a Muslim perspective anyway. When a Muslim resides in a non-Muslim country, they enter into a binding agreement which obligates them to not harm their fellow citizens due to this covenant. Even classical scholars like Imam al-Kurdi (ra), the great medieval Shafi’i jurist, mentioned that you cannot harm those you have a covenant with when you reide in their territory, even if they are at war with other Muslims:
    “The answer: Insofar as it is possible for Muslims to practice their religion openly with what they can have power over, and they are not afraid of any threat [fitna] to their religion if they pay tax to the non-Muslims, it is permissible for them to reside there (in territory controlled by non-Muslims). It is also permissible to pay them the tax as a requirement of it; rather, it is obligatory [Wajib] to pay them the tax for fear of their causing harm to the Muslims. The ruling about the non-Muslims at war as mentioned above (when they are at war [with a Muslim state]), because they protect the Muslims [in their territory], is that it would not be permissible for the Muslims to murder them or to steal from them.”
    http://masud.co.uk/defending-the-civilians-mudafi-al-mazlum-shaykh-muhammad-afifi-al-akitis-fatwa-on-suicide-bombings/

    This is not a controversial ruling. In fact, the only exception to this general principle I have come across is in the Hanafi school that allows Muslim residents of a non-Muslim state/territory to unilaterally withdraw from this covenant is IF these non-Muslims are at war with Muslims and have come back with Muslim women and children as slaves through the area where these Muslims live. If this is the case and the Muslims have the strength to free them, then these Muslims are allowed (I forget whether they are obligated) to announce that they have withdrawn from the covenant and then attack the slavers and free the Muslim women and children. None of this is occurring in the current context of events. If you know of another exception in traditional Islamic law, I’d love to be enlightened.

    If Muslims living in France want to oppose French foreign military policies, they can renounce their citizenship and go to fight French soldiers carrying out operations in Muslim territory or shoot down French jets over the same.

    This was also echoed by very high-level scholars like Mufti Rafi Usmani (former grand mufti of Pakistan) and others:

    “Islam is absolutely clear on this issue. Two wrongs do not make a right,” Mufti Usmani said.

    “If they feel that the US or the UK are killing innocent civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan, it does not give them the right to kill innocent citizens in London or New York,” he said.

    Dr Sikander (who heads Jamia Binoria in Karachi) says that should Muslims feel that their country of residence is doing something terribly wrong, then all they can do is to leave the country.

    “If an Iraqi living in London is outraged over Britain’s role in what is happening in Iraq, then he should go to Iraq and fight the coalition forces there,” he said.

    “Nothing gives him the right to hit back at innocent civilians living in the UK.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4711003.stm

    This is especially the case when these cowardly criminals are attacking women – WOMEN – in these countries; whereas unarmed women are considered off-limits as targets by consensus even in the middle of an active battlefield.

    There are rules to these matters in the sacred law; one violates them to the detriment of their own soul in this world and the next.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
  112. Talha says:
    @Alden

    Murder is murder and you approve of murder.

    Nope – strike two.

    And you justify and approve of that murder.

    Nope – strike three.

    Thanks for playing.

    Peace.

  113. remo says:

    Thank you.

    It is my opinion also that this action by the ridiculous and artistically compromised rag,
    publishing at this critical moment work known to provoke extreme response,

    must first be assessed as ‘strategy of tension’ GLADIO type provocation.

  114. @AnonStarter

    The reason Muslims are so despised is because the ethnic groups they are drawn from are usually less than suited to adapt to a Western industrialised and advanced society (unlike say, East Asians) and combine this with the fact that they cause a lot of unique problems and are incredibly clannish. Anti-Islam rhetoric is just a workaround by closet racists to avoid touching the heart of the matter, that Islam is merely a mortar that binds together hostile racial groups in their assault on Europeans. I merely see Islam as an exacerbating factor of an already present problem that lies with race rather than religion. One can also regard BLM as a sort of religion, it certainly gives its adherents a worldview to base their perceptions of reality upon, and it certainly exacerbates the race problem.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  115. @anonymous

    Blah blah blah, all I read here is the unfixable rage of someone with a massive chip on their shoulder and likely possessing an inferiority complex in relation to White people.

    • Agree: Alden
  116. Talha says:
    @Bill Jones

    You are here on sufferance is the clear message.

    Yes, this makes sense. This is assumed to be the case in classical thought, as per the article I cited earlier (relevant text below):
    “The status of the Muslims who reside and are born in non-Muslim states is the reverse of the above non-Muslim status in a Muslim state: al-muslim bi-dhimmati l-kafir [a Muslim in the care of a non-Muslim state – literally a Muslim with dhimmi status] and from our own Muslim and religious perspective, whether we like it or not, there are similarities to the status of a guest which should not be forgotten.”

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Oikeamielinen
  117. bjondo says:

    To many in the West, shit is considered art.
    Would several tons of this art in Hebdoo’s
    office and The Élysée Palace be appreciated
    as both art and free speech?

    How ’bout living art: Macron, all the Hebdoos, Pussy Riot,
    deep in a tub of urine. A container of urine already accepted as art.

    5ds

  118. What those results tell you about the compatibility of Islamic culture with Western civilisation?

    What they indicate, in part, is that old world Muslims have lost knowledge of their religion.

    Neither apostasy nor adultery are capital crimes in Islam. They were as such in Judaism for centuries and, in truth, they still are, though the application of these laws has been temporarily suspended by most rabbinical authorities until such time as they may be safely applied again.

    Some time after the Rashidun period, statements attributed to both The Prophet and his companions were presented as justification to rationalize the practice of killing apostates and adulterers that had been customary in Jewish law. It’s what we call Isra’iliyyat.

    Unfortunately, this phenomenon, as well as the later institution of “blasphemy law,” has beset the millennial Muslim world for over twelve centuries.

    Having confronted these issues since the Rushdie affair, I have to agree that Muslims must identify anti-Islam provocation for what it is worth and leave it at that. Neither extremist violence nor advocating the institution of anti-blasphemy law are appropriate responses.

    And those who will not witness vanity, but when they pass near senseless play, pass by with dignity. [Qur’an 25: 72]

    That said, France has proven itself entirely duplicitous in how it handles its Muslim population. Compelling Muslim women to remove religiously-prescribed attire is complete nonsense. The modesty of Muslim women has no adverse effect upon anyone but insatiable voyeurs. Nor are contemporary methods of slaughtering animals for meat any more humane than either kosher or halal methods. In fact, if anything, they’re more likely to result in adrenaline-tainted meat.

    Step on a rake, indeed. Macron is Sideshow Bob sans joie de vivre.

  119. Jiminy says:

    Some of those CH covers do appear to be rather in your face. But it is surprising just how cutting a well thought up cartoon can be. The question is why destabilise an already precarious environment? One has to wonder of the agenda, and who they are really working for. The level of double standards in France is quite eye watering.
    I know here in oz treasurer Jew-boy Freidenberg was making fun of Indian religious practices whilst in parliament, which he obviously thought was acceptable. Yet if the tables were turned, wouldn’t we all know about it. At no time did Jew-boy Josh apologise for the unnecessary insult. Maybe the Indians are more stable and integrated and forgiving than the muslims though.

  120. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    The reason Muslims are so despised is because the ethnic groups they are drawn from are usually less than suited to adapt to a Western industrialised and advanced society (unlike say, East Asians) and combine this with the fact that they cause a lot of unique problems and are incredibly clannish.

    This hasn’t been my experience at all.

    I’ve been Muslim for three decades now, started out at university where I met a wide variety of well educated, erudite folks who not only functionally assimilated into American society, but contributed far more to it than the average indigenous American.

    I recently asked another anti-Islam poster if he had any personal experience with Muslims, to which he replied firmly in the negative. I find that most of you guys have little, if any, real world experience with Muslims, which explains the profound ignorance on display here.

    As for “clannish,” isn’t that an apt description of you and others here in your tacit advocacy of “white” interests? That is, after all, what you’re advocating, is it not?

    • Thanks: Majority of One
  121. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dumbo

    Muslim Arabs are not French and never will be

    .

    Funny that. Yet France expended thousands of lives in their insane colonial project of forcibly and cruelly “assimilating” millions of residents of former Muslim colonies into becoming just that – French. The colonial chicken has now come home to roost. Stop whining, genius.

    • Replies: @Dumbo
  122. @Talha

    Doubt it was ‘The French” who were (really) responsible for them being let in, in the first place.

  123. @AnonStarter

    This hasn’t been my experience at all.

    I’ve been Muslim for three decades now, started out at university where I met a wide variety of well educated, erudite folks who not only functionally assimilated into American society, but contributed far more to it than the average indigenous American.

    Perhaps the dynamics are different in America, I have no experience of American society nor of Muslims in America

    I recently asked another anti-Islam poster if he had any personal experience with Muslims, to which he replied firmly in the negative. I find that most of you guys have little, if any, real world experience with Muslims, which explains the profound ignorance on display here.

    Yes, I live near Birmingham (England) where there is a large concentration of Muslims.

    As for “clannish,” isn’t that an apt description of you and others here in your tacit advocacy of “white” interests? That is, after all, what you’re advocating, is it not?

    This logic of your is akin to saying “you cannot oppose your own soldiers being killed or advocate for measures that would lessen casualties on your side, because you too are killing enemy soldiers so that would be hypocritical“, point being I am not against the principle of clannish behaviour, I just dislike foreign groups’ clannish behaviour in my nation. They have their own nations to be clannish in.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  124. Cyrano says:
    @Blade

    Look here moron. I am not a Polak, I never wanted to have anything to do with you western degenerates. We were never part of the west and we never want to be. You can try to impress with you western liberalism the ones raping your girls and chopping your heads off. Those things don’t fly in the Balkans. You and the western “civilization” can go and f**k yourself. Maybe you had bacon in the middle ages but we were vegetarian and ahead of the game even way back then.

  125. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Perhaps the dynamics are different in America, I have no experience of American society nor of Muslims in America

    We’re an eclectic bunch from all walks of life, virtually all trades, all professions. From what I know of England, it isn’t that much different.

    Yes, I live near Birmingham (England) where there is a large concentration of Muslims.

    Good to know. Thank you.

    This logic of your is akin to saying “you cannot oppose your own soldiers being killed or advocate for measures that would lessen casualties on your side, because you too are killing enemy soldiers so that would be hypocritical“

    I think you’ll have a difficult time finding anything in what I’ve written that comes even remotely close to what you’re suggesting.

    I am not against the principle of clannish behaviour, I just dislike foreign groups’ clannish behaviour in my nation.

    Well, I myself am a racial minority in Muslim American communities. I’m not gravely disturbed by the fact that each ethnic group therein tends to be somewhat clannish, as common language and culture make that difficult to avoid. We still get along with each other just fine. It can be a bit disappointing when you’re a bachelor seeking marriage to another Muslimah, however, as this appears to be a red line for many parents.

    So how has the clannish conduct of Birmingham Muslims infringed upon your personal liberty? I’m genuinely curious to know.

  126. TKK says:
    @Blade

    I lived in Istanbul on and off for over 4 years with a Turkish family.

    I am not aware of any government help for NON CITIZENS. There is little help for Turkish citizens.

    Turkish help comes from Turkish families and local mosques. If you are a Christian, go to the local mosque and ask the iman for help.

    Ha!

  127. @ivan

    If the Catholics were in charge

    You mean those who answer to the pagan sex-crazed degenerate Catholic church? Whitevil catholics are of the accursed pagan godless. If they have a special animosity towards Islam, we muslims must be on to a good thing.

    I wish a pox on all pagan/godless lowlifes who have animosity towards the true monotheism of Islam.

    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
  128. Jett Rucker says: • Website

    Censorship fosters interracial comity the way war fosters peace.

    France/Jews censor with their stinking Loi Gayssot and anti-hate-expression laws, and the odd Muslim does it with a knife.

    It’s all censorship.

  129. Jett Rucker says: • Website

    the French secret service has a tradition of killing the perpetrators they sent to do the deed

    The US has the same tradition, most-recently in the killing of Michael Reinoehl, the Portland shooter who was videoed shooting a Trump supporter. The case of Lee Harvey Oswald will be the earliest most of us can remember.

    It’s all theater, for those of us willing to conclude the obvious.

  130. Biff says:

    Actually, beheading is a French as onion soup.

  131. Ivan says:
    @AaronB

    I grew up among Muslims. I’ve lived in the countries that practice the moderate Islam such as India, Malaysia and Singapore. While I can assure you that many Muslims are among the kindest people that one meets, as a collective they leave a lot to be desired. This is not difficult to understand since after all the song and dance, the religion of Islam is about submission : culturally and morally, not about love and charity or leaving each with his own conscience. Such Muslims as one sees as intelligent, who recognise the anthropological phenomena that is common to all religions, someone like the Malaysian Faris Noor are functionally atheist.

    • Agree: Vojkan
  132. Ivan says:
    @lavoisier

    Yes for a Christian like me their caricature of the Holy Trinity should be outrageous. But I reason that God if he exists it his his business to take care of insults to His Majesty if He wants to. I mean who in his right mind would insult a Being that has power over life and death? Obviously the CH fellows don’t care for the Christian God. As you indicate they are pretty much a Zionist gaslighting operation. The sad part is that the artistic level of their cartoons does not rise above lavatory graffiti. If there is a hint of Gustave Dore in any of them, then I would be worried.

    • Agree: Ray Caruso
  133. @Blade

    Jews don’t have numbers to incite anything outside Israel.

    Though few in number they’re in influential positions in politics, business, media, academia and they lobby for wars, inciting violence on a far bigger scale than just the street level type, although through
    the policies they promote, such as mass immigration, they have a hand in that too. Again, not all Jews.

  134. @Dumbo

    Yeah, we could go away, if you necrophiliac whitevil mofers get your greedy psychopathic hands off our throats. Since that is not happening, the only way appears to be to attack and fuck up your spiritually cursed lands, from the inside.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  135. German_reader says:
    @anonymouslim

    the only way appears to be to attack and fuck up your spiritually cursed lands

    What exactly do you mean with that? Are you in favour of terrorist attacks?

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Dumbo
  136. @Ivan

    Lol! I get it now, why you hate Islam and muslims so much.

    You must be one of those promiscuous, regular companion to diseased whores, human-swine hogging on filthy-swine, mammon\usury worshipping, intoxicated, fugly flat-faced slit-eyed chink, who has gratefully found some camaraderie here in the accursed Brotherhood of Islam-haters.

    Your (all of you) entire existence is degenerate, so naturally you will stray far away from the true monotheism of Islam, because consciously or not, y’all worship Satan and his way.

    You know, since a common theme with most racist pagan/godless scum here is for muslims to leave the spiritually accursed western lands, because apparently they don’t belong there, why don’t you leave too? Is it because you are too much of a pathetic loser, and will find yourself much in the same position as the “wretched” muslims you hate? 😀

    • Troll: Seraphim
    • Replies: @Vojkan
  137. Metropole says:

    When I read about officially promoted Islamophobia in Europe I can’t help but remember the origins of Christianity in that continent. The Romans used to feed Christians to lions as a spectator sport, burn them, drown them and made them kill each other in gladiatorial combat. And, oh yes, wasn’t it Europeans who tortured Jesus and dragged him to the cross and crucified him? Christianity was the religion of a primitive people from a backward colony of the glorious Roman Empire.

    Fast forward a few centuries and all of Europe became Christian. Roman society was falling apart and they thought it advantageous to adopt Christianity as their own. The natural abilities of European people combined with the civilizing aspect of Christianity gave them many centuries of progress.

    Fast forward again to the present. Christianity has nearly been exterminated and society is again falling apart. Countries like France are dead-enders, with not much to look forward to. France, England etc. live on the memories of their perceived glorious past. The present consists of high divorce rates, broken families, high crime, aging populations, sky-high taxation, pornography, drugs, alcoholism, etc. What kind of glorious future can you build when you’re already extracting as much taxation as you can from a dying population?

    France is one of the most atheist countries in the world with only around 11% saying that they believe in God. The atheists have fought long and hard to destroy belief in God, so they’re not going to let the pesky Muslims come in and ruin all that hard work. Where churches have been converted into nightclubs they certainly wouldn’t want mosques to be built.

    So like pre-Christian Europeans the post-Christian Europeans of today are reverting to their old behavior. They can’t crucify Prophet Muhammad but they can insult him. Now it is the turn of the Muslims to be fed to the lions. Lets see if the rest of history repeats itself.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  138. Napoleon had brought beheading to the Middle East, not vice versa.

    Mohammad was a big fan of decapitation. He put out a lot of verses in that crappy koran about cutting things off your enemy – heads, fingers, legs, arms, ears, nose. That was a 1000 years before Napoleon.

  139. @anonymous

    Since your religion is obviously false, I am not at all worried about being consigned to hell for denouncing it or its barbarous followers. How do I know for sure Islam is false? Many reasons, really. However, it suffices to know your “prophet” used to fellate little boys. In fact, he used to molest his own grandsons, Hassan and Hussein, in that disgusting way:

    [MORE]

    He (the Prophet) lift up his (al Hassan’s) shirt and kissed his (little) penis..”
    روى أنه صلى الله عليه و سلم قبل زبيبة الحسن أو الحسين
    He (the prophet) kissed the (little) penis of al Hassan or al Husein
    رأيت النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
    He (the prophet) put Husein’s legs apart and kissed his (little) penis

    Another Hadith. Majma al-Zawa’id, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami, 299/9 مجمع الزوائد لعلي بن أبى بكر الهيثمي

    رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
    رواه الطبراني و إسناده حسن
    translated into English: “I saw the Messenger of Allah pbuh putting Husein’s legs apart and kissing his (little) penis.”

    Related by Al-Tabarani and it’s authentication is fully validated by Islamic scholars.

    A man who sucks off little boys is no prophet. In addition to that, the Koran, supposedly authored by God Himself, is riddled with factual errors, which proves it to be a fraud:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran

    Yours is an odious and bloodthirsty religion, but it’s above all a ridiculous religion. Only stupid and irrational individuals can be Moslems. It figures that the average IQ in every Moslem country is well below 100.

    • Agree: Nodwink
  140. Vojkan says:
    @Ivan

    Something similar could be said of virtually any “minority” in what once upon a time was a Christian world. Taken individually, there are truly nice people among Jews, communists, feminists, the LGBT crowd etc. Taken collectively though, their ideologies stink because they are inherently clannish and nepotistic whereas Christianity – the true one of the Gospels not the judaising heresies the West has spawned – is inherently individualistic and meritocratic.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  141. @Talha

    What you wrote may have been the opinion of a Moslem jurist. Guess what: the vast majority of Moslems are either not familiar with that opinion or simply reject it. The average Moslem does know, however, that Muhammad said jihad (meaning violence against non-Moslems, not a generic “struggle”) is the most meritorious action a Moslem can perform. They also know only “martyrs” can get into Moslem heaven after death. All other Moslems, no matter how pious, will have to await Judgment Day in their graves as sentient rotting corpses, and will be, moreover, tortured by horrid angels as punishment for whatever minor sins they may have committed. The behavior of Moslems residing in non-Moslem countries does not reflect the opinion of the jurist you cited; it reflects the teachings of Muhammad about jihad.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/opinion/04iht-edhalevi.1.5565834.html

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
    , @Ivan
  142. @anonymouslim

    Moslems monotheistically worship Satan. Allah is Satan. He could not resist confessing his true identity when he dictated the Koran to Mohammed, the pedophiliac, mass-murdering false prophet. God is truth; Satan is the deceiver. And yet, Allah (Satan) says over and over again in the Koran that he is the “best of deceivers”.

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver

    If you think Allah is God, you’re being deceived.

    LOL

  143. neutral says:
    @German_reader

    Are you in favour of terrorist attacks?

    Wanting your mortal enemies to die is the normal human approach to have. It is the ideology of tolerating them that is the path0logical thing here.

  144. Dumbo says:
    @German_reader

    He’s a Muslim. Of course he’s in favour of terrorist attacks.

  145. Dumbo says:

    The Demon Rats appear to be winning. If Cardinal Viganò is right (in his open letter to Trump), then we are truly and genuinely f***ed. Expect more wars, more flooding of Europe with refugees, more Covid tyranny. May God have mercy on our souls.

  146. Dumbo says:
    @Anonymous

    The French are stupid. That doesn’t change the fact that North African Muslims will NEVER in any way become “French”. It’s more likely that France will turn (is already turning) into “Algeria on the Seine”.

  147. @Talha

    Here is something I would propose to the Charlie Hebdo crew:

    How about a tropical vacation? Won’t cost a sou and you will have an entire island to yourselves.
    Emmanuel Macron will join you there with friends from Denmark.

  148. Nodwink says:
    @VinnyVette

    This has been the argument from such people as Owen Flanagan, a Buddhist who self-describes as a naturalist. I’m not convinced by the argument that science and religion can co-exist happily.

    For example, it is said that the Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution, but that’s not really true. The Catholics accept their version of evolutionary theory, not the version that biologists accept.

  149. Vojkan says:
    @anonymouslim

    If anyone is spewing hate here it is you. In every comment you make. Without exception.

    • Agree: Talha
  150. AaronB says:
    @Ivan

    While I can assure you that many Muslims are among the kindest people that one meets, as a collective they leave a lot to be desired.

    Yes, I work a lot with Muslims and many are very nice and kind people. But this does not change the fact that as a collective they want to dominate.

    This is not difficult to understand since after all the song and dance, the religion of Islam is about submission : culturally and morally, not about love and charity or leaving each with his own conscience.

    Basically yes. And the truth is I don’t find this so surprising or bad. I think we shouldn’t be moralistic about this and just face up to what they are. Plenty of old empires were just about conquest. Its human, if not particularly spiritual or lofty.

    Just, one shouldn’t be deceived when it comes to Muslims. Understand they cannot help it and this is their culture. Be vigilant and clear eyed.

    I do think the impulse to dominate in Islam will have to mutate into another form or Islam will die out. Today Muslims can no longer win wars against others so they direct their violence internally. And the converts they get are very low quality, disturbed, aggressive people, whicg is adding to the dysfunction.

    A very dysfunctional and declining civilization at the moment, but believe it or not I do wish them the best and hope they develop into something better. But that would mean getting rid of the need to fominate, which is primitive.

    • Thanks: Ivan
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  151. trickster says:
    @Cyrano

    You are right. However we dont have to wait 500 years for their destruction to mature. It has done so in a few short years. No matter the country, France, the UK, Germany, there are now once pristine cities that are hell holes. What will have to happen is we will have to drive them out of Europe by force just as the Spanish did so long ago.

    I notice some of your detractors attacked you for blaming these people for all your problems. The question is who do you blame for the chaos in just about every European city ? Answer is the Muslims !

    As you said we want to show we are civilized, righteous etc but these people take it not as a sign of a higher civilization and kindness but as a sign we are cunts. Once someone takes advantage of a kindness it becomes time to show that in the handkerchief is a blade.

    These people should all be rounded up and deported, immigration of Moslems frozen and as in Islamic countries, the perpetrators of street murders and beheadings executed. That is what they understand and they should get what they deserve.

    Our problems with these ingrates would be over in short order !

  152. @Talha

    Certainly Muslims can see the ‘dhimmitude’ in the Community of Western Values what with numerous Holocaust temples and show trials in courts of law. Does that not affect Muslim attitudes toward the kafir?

    • Replies: @Talha
  153. One thing the author is unable to highlight, understandably so, is to what degeneracy that lowlife limp Macaroni was up to when he was all of 15yrs old. That young perverted budding scum reflected the deep rottenness of the spiritually accursed western evilisation.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-brigitte-trogneux-partner-affair-teacher-kiss-cheek-sixteen-school-play-a7710561.html

    This gutter lowlife will disparage the Almighty One’s only approved faith for mankind?! I spit on him and his entire ilk.

  154. @Blade

    “This is the direct consequence of French actions in Africa and ME”

    France instigated the destruction of Libya because the alternative currency proposed by Gadhafi would have devastated French banking interests, and Gadhafi was about to become stronger through its oil deal with Italy.

    France wanted to start bombing Syria soon after, but American support was lukewarm and the Western coalition opted for creating ISIS to topple Assad.

  155. @FB

    “ Now right wingers need to learn these basic dynamics of how the world really works…we are being taken advantage of simply because we buy into the most egregious of the lies, which is the sanctity of capitalism itself…”

    The decline of the West has started with feminism which in turn led to the demographic decline in the White population. As far as capitalism, any thinking person would realise that it does not exist for the simple reason that the free market is an illusion as long as we have the two moral hazards of ‘too big to fail’ and ‘too big to jail.’ What we have ended up with is a hybrid economy that is more or less free on the micro side where the less red tape we have, the freer the micro level would be, and a central command system on the macro level where the price of money is set within a system of central banking that dictates the price of lending and the amount of liquidity in the economy when liquidity should be strictly linked to productivity. Central banking has transcended national borders in a way that made of it an international cartel against which sovereign governments are helpless. True capitalism can never be as long as fake Keynesianism is the order of the day as the finance industry thrives on the constant issuance of non stop debt irrespective of the state of the economy being in growth or in recession. The ‘ stock option’ fantasy has added to the woos of the free market as higher management became more interested in financial pursuits designed to manipulate the price of the stock instead of working on the left side of the balance sheet. The discipline of the market is an illusion as long as non stop market manipulation by the big banks is settled through a fine and no heads roll while banks are constantly bailed out or bailed in. The Federal Reserve is the nemesis of a free market and its constant meddling through pushing cheap money into shoring up the stock market is leading the world economy to the perfect storm.

    The predatory ruling class tricked women into the labour market with the added competition for jobs decimating the wage bargaining power of the male population. This has led to a regressive population growth with the long term destructive solution of importing new consumers from anywhere in the world irrespective of their ability to assimilate. China has opened up its economy to the free market but so far has avoided the slippery path of unrestrained immigration except to make up for the female deficit brought up by the one child policy, thereby preserving a fair degree of social harmony. On the other hand, the Western ruling class has shown total indifference to the national social well being with the middle classes rallying to the national flag on their own and having to deal with the encroachment on their livelihood by open immigration. Add to this the presstitute media that spreads its lies into a gullible and insouciant population and the sorry state of affairs will last until the whole house of cards crumbles on our heads.

    • Replies: @FB
  156. Talha says:
    @Oikeamielinen

    Not sure what you are getting at here, can you please elaborate?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Oikeamielinen
  157. @Vojkan

    “A civilised man knows to refrain himself.”

    Wait, by any measure, that doesn’t seem to apply to whitevil psychopathic savages, who have laid waste to large swathes of the world. If said savages aren’t plundering others physically, spreading untold death, destruction and suffering, they are doing the same thing covertly. Savages with “civilised” masks, yeah?

    The freedom to commit blasphemy is consubstantial with the freedom of opinion and speech… and other blah blah…

    Yeah, that also applies to vile caricatures depicting your father, mother, siblings, children… all in the name of FoE? Perhaps there are some out there who will find that funny, and they demand their right to freedom of laughter.

    If you are ok with that, hooray for FoE and all, what are you then? Surely, not a, man!

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  158. Talha says:
    @Ray Caruso

    What you wrote may have been the opinion of a Moslem jurist.

    No, I cited multiple jurists and can cite many more. As I stated, this is not a fringe ruling – it is THE ruling that all schools agree on; that Muslims allowed to live in non-Muslim land that are there under a covenant/agreement of protection (which is what citizenship or residency rights entails) are not permitted by the sacred law to break with that covenant unilaterally and harm the people of that land. And I even gave the one exception to the rule that I have ever come across, namely the Hanafi school with regard to freeing Muslim women and children who have been captured as slaves and are being brought through their area.

    But it is probably best to cite a man like Prof. David Cook, who spends his life researching radicalization in the Muslim world:
    “So, you have within you a strong tendency – this strong ahistorical tendency to pretend that history just simply didn’t exist, if you’re a Salafi, if you’re a radical. Because you have to…because then you can begin to ignore the huge mass of Shariah that you have to deal with…Who has the authority? For the traditional Muslim, it has to be the ulema – it has to be the religious hierarchy. But, uniformally, this group is hostile to radicalism. As a matter of fact, to me – to my eyes, the most obvious way to innocculate a Muslim from radicalism is actually just to put them in a religious school and make them learn the traditional way. Because, in actuality, that forces you into a world – a conceptual world – that is quite, quite distant from radicalism and doesn’t allow you to actually go into it very well.”

    Guaranteed, the guy who did the beheading was like the guy who did the stabbings in the church; a young Muslim (possibly into drugs and petty crime) with a lack of basic knowledge and practice in the religion. What you don’t ever see are guys that spend 5-10 years studying Islam under scholars in places like al-Azhar or Abu Noor or Sarhanpur or Qarawiyyin doing this stuff. Not one.

    the vast majority of Moslems are either not familiar with that opinion or simply reject it

    This is not correct. According to a relatively recent worldwide poll done by gallup, Muslims have about the same or better numbers in rejecting both state and non-state violence that targets civilians:https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/ADGC/yrawgoykakayfhwm4ayuqq.png
    https://news.gallup.com/poll/157067/views-violence.aspx

    Muhammad said jihad (meaning violence against non-Moslems, not a generic “struggle”) is the most meritorious action a Moslem can perform.

    Incorrect. He did tell this to some Companions (ra) at a certain time and context and he also gave other advice regarding the best of deeds in another context, for example:
    “The best of the deeds is the (observance of) prayer at its proper time and kindness to the parents.” – reported in Muslim

    In fact, he specifically told a person NOT to go into jihad and serve his parents instead:
    “A man came to the Prophet (pbuh) asking his permission to take part in jihad. The Prophet (pbuh) asked him, ‘Are your parents alive?’ He replied in the affirmative. The Prophet (pbuh) said to him, ‘Then exert yourself in their service.’” – reported in Bukhari

    But you ignore these things…fine and dandy, but why should we?

    The behavior of Moslems residing in non-Moslem countries does not reflect the opinion of the jurist you cited; it reflects the teachings of Muhammad about jihad.

    No – the vast majority of Muslims (millions of them in France) obviously do not go on stab-happy sprees in churches. That’s just plain mathematics.

    The jurists I cited derive their rulings based on studying the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) for decades. A man like Mufti Rafi Usmani probably has 40 years of study under his belt. I have been studying medieval source texts in the original Arabic with qualified and credentialed scholars for over a decade. You couldn’t spell your name in Arabic if your life depended on it, so yeah – I’ll take their opinion over what you think the Prophet (opbuh) taught.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Ray Caruso
  159. Metropole says:
    @TG

    Islam is a religion of peace and all who say different must be killed.

    We are civilized so we’re going to round up 50 million barbarians and kill them,

  160. @AaronB

    Islam per se, or Muslims for that matter, don’t bother me, if they were to mostly stick to their own countries. If there was just a sprinkling of Muslims in the West I wouldn’t care whether they were the modern secularist integrated types or pious traditionalists – they would just be seen as an oddity and of not threat to anybody. The problem is the numbers, and they’re multiplying, instead of letting their numbers stay in the range that keeps them in the taqiyah phase. Now I can’t believe that intelligence agencies who advise politicians,with all their field agents in Muslim countries, couldn’t have predicted what would happen if you imported large numbers of them. So the question is why are they importing them, and it can’t be the stupidity of Western politicians or their empathy for the suffering refugees. Empathy of Western politicians! Give me a break. No way do they care about anybody but themselves. They obviously have no empathy for those they bomb in their wars. But then maybe members of your tribe have a hand in all this, as many here on UR would claim.

    BTW I couldn’t find the word “fominate” in my dictionary.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  161. @Metropole

    And, oh yes, wasn’t it Europeans who tortured Jesus and dragged him to the cross and crucified him?

    Hmm … The European Romans only acted against Jesus on the instigation of the non-European Jews.

    • Replies: @Metropole
    , @Seraphim
  162. @Talha

    That Westerners may be seen as inferior beings when they are subjugated by the Holocaust cult and “hate speech” laws.

    • Replies: @Talha
  163. Talha says:
    @Oikeamielinen

    That Westerners may be seen as inferior beings when they are subjugated by the Holocaust cult and “hate speech” laws.

    It is the way of the Divine that certain superior qualities have been gifted to some people to some degree in one aspect while another people have been gifted some other qualities to another aspect. Wherever you find a strength, you will also find some weakness.
    “Say, ‘O Allah, Owner of Sovereignty, You give dominion to whom You will and You take dominion away from whom You will. You honor/exalt whom You will and You humble/humiliate whom You will. In Your Hand is all goodness. Indeed, You have Power over everything.’” (3:26)

    This is the way of the world, perfection belongs to Him Alone.

    But as far as “hate speech” laws; I think Mr. Shamir eloquently showed how inconsistent and hypocritical these are. It’s just best to be honest and straightforward and state; “We allow some speech and do not allow other speech and here is what we do not allow and why…”

    There would be more dignity and coherence in it.

    I was pointed out to an Australian academic, David van Mill, who wrote this book on the subject (I don’t know if I’ll get around to reading it):
    https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783319516349

    However, he has a nice article on the subject found here that is worth the read:

    The topic of free speech is one of the most contentious issues in liberal societies. If liberty of expression is not highly valued, as has often been the case, there is no problem; freedom of expression is simply curtailed in favor of other values. It becomes a volatile issue when it is highly valued because only then do the limitations placed upon it become controversial. The first thing to note in any sensible discussion of freedom of speech is that it will have to be limited. Every society places some limits on the exercise of speech because it always takes place within a context of competing values. In this sense, Stanley Fish is correct when he says that there is no such thing as free speech (in the sense of unlimited speech). Free speech is simply a useful term to focus our attention on a particular form of human interaction and the phrase is not meant to suggest that speech should never be limited. One does not have to fully agree with Fish when he says , “free speech in short, is not an independent value but a political prize” (1994,102) but it is the case that no society has existed where speech has not been limited to some extent. Haworth (1998) makes a similar point when he suggests that a right to freedom of speech is not something we have, not something we own, in the same way as we possess arms and legs.

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  164. Talha says:
    @Talha

    In other words “absolute free speech” is a nice idea like libertarianism, which is nice to discuss over dinner or on online forums, but has no practical application currently or historically when dealing with the human enterprise.

    “Trump escalates fight against press with libel lawsuits”
    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/486273-trump-escalates-fight-against-press-with-libel-lawsuits

    • Replies: @Oikeamielinen
  165. Vojkan says:
    @anonymouslim

    I understand you are doing your uttermost to make us think that Muslims are morons. As I see it, I have no doubt that you are a moron, I am much less convinced that you are Muslim.

    • Agree: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @Talha
  166. AaronB says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I definitely agree with you. Muslims would still be attacking you from the ME even if none lived in the West, because they are inherently aggressive and expansionist, but that would be much more manageable.

    As for immigration, there are multiple intersecting reasons.

    The biggest reason is ideology. In the 18th century, European philosophers killed Christianity and replaced it with an ideology about mankind creating a secular utopia on earth based on reason. Human history was a story of progress towards this goal. Heaven was to be found on earth. As you can see it was very similar to the Christianity it replaced.

    In this earthly utopia everyone will be rational and enlightened, and old primitive emotions like natuonalism will be stamped out forever, as they are the source of irrational wars.

    To achieve this nations must be mixed, and people from everywhere brought into every country, stripped of their primitive identities and become enlightened and rational.

    In this way human history has a goal and purpose and life has meaning. Dont underestimate the importance of religion or ideology in motivating people. People rarely care only about comfort.

    Undoubtedly, many Jews saw in this ideology with its hostility to nationalism an opportunity to create a society composed of many different groups which would make them no longer the only outsiders. But notice, that in itself fits in perfectly with this ideology. Jewish self interest in not being targeted as oursiders was a perfect match for an ideology that wanted to erase group distinctions.

    Other Jews, the majority, simply abandoned Judaism and assimilated to this new ideology and became its most fervent promoters.

    But this isn’t the only reason. In the early 20th century, it was beginning to be felt that Europe was overcivilized. Too many social rules and burdens. Bertrand Russell famously said WW1 broke out because people were bored. Freud began calling attention to the large number of neurotics European over-civilization was producing.

    So there was a real desire on the part of many people to destroy Eurooean civilization and a growing interest in contact with so called promituve cultures and peoples.

    Big business loved all this because it could get cheap workers.

    So all this intersected in ways that made it practically unstoppable.

  167. Talha says:
    @Vojkan

    I am much less convinced that you are Muslim.

    Whopping 5 comment history…

    Peace.

  168. @Talha

    People approach freedom of speech on an abstract level and become entangled in semantics.
    Here is a practical example of “hate speech” persecution; a state prosecutor has decided to, or has been ordered to, beat up a Christian Democrat. The Christian Democrat had quoted the Bible 15 years earlier.

    Funny thing is that the representative had been on the “hate speech” bandwagon herself not long ago. Hate speech brings hate deed, said she. It’s a shame when your own dog bites you.

    https://www.paivirasanen.fi/en/
    PRESS RELEASE

    [MORE]

    21 August 2020
    MP Päivi Räsänen:
    Summoned again to a police interrogation – this time for a talk show series with host Stiller
    The police have summoned me to arrive at the Main Police Station in Pasila, Helsinki at 10:00 AM on 25 August 2020 for interrogation on suspicion of ethnic agitation against a group, which carries the sentence of a fine or imprisonment for a maximum of two years (case nro: 5500/R/74807/19). This is already the third time I am interrogated because of suspicion of agitation against a minority group. Although the interrogations and the statements related to them take time, I will not back down from my views.

    The interrogation has to do with the pre-trial investigation ordered by the Prosecutor General for my views presented in one program of the YlePuhe [The Finnish Broadcasting Corporation, Talk Show] series with host Ruben Stiller on the topic “What would Jesus think about homosexuals?”. This was broadcast on 20 Dec. 2019. This radio discussion can be found at the following link: https://areena.yle.fi/1-50363169?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=areena-ios-share
    […]
    _______________

    Christian News
    Finnish Politician, Pastor’s Wife Accused of ‘Incitement of Hatred’ Over Booklet ‘Male and Female He Created Them’
    By Heather Clark on November 5, 2019
    https://christiannews.net/2019/11/05/finnish-politician-pastors-wife-accused-of-incitement-of-hatred-over-booklet-male-and-female-he-created-them/

    • Replies: @Talha
  169. AaronB says:

    While I don’t support any suppression of speech, if you’re a liberal trying to erase national identity it makes perfect sense to supress holocaust denial while supporting deconstructing Muslim identity.

    The Holocaust is one of the great sins of nationalism according to liberals. Minimizing that goes totally against the liberal agenda. Meanwhile, Muslims stubbornly cling to their identity, making them legitimate targets for deconstruction according to liberals.

    Moreover, minimizing the holocaust is seen as having a negative anti-liberal agenda like promoting hatred or reducing vigilance against such things happening again, and rehabilitating nationalism, the source of all hatred and conflict according to liberals. While Muslim insistence that their prophet not be caricatured by non Muslims is seen as an illegitimate assertion of religion onto everyone – which is very dangerous to the liberal project of erasing religion and creating a utopia based on reason – as well as a source of violence and hatred in the sense that it stems from superstition and group identity.

    So on the one hand holocaust denial is seen as promoting conflict and nationalism. On the other hand caricatuting Mohammed is seen as fighting nationalism and hatred.

    If you’re a liberal, its a no brainer. People who think there is any inconsistency here simply haven’t bothered to educate themselves on what liberals agenda.

    Again, I personally don’t support any suppression of speech, and I’m not on board with the radical liberal agenda of creating a utopia of reason, but you huys should at least understand your enemy.

    • Replies: @anon
  170. @AnonStarter

    So how has the clannish conduct of Birmingham Muslims infringed upon your personal liberty? I’m genuinely curious to know.

    I can’t be bothered going into the details of why a large presence of unassimilable and alien peoples permanently settling in my nation has infringed upon my rights, but I will say it has done so to a greater degree than drawings of Muhammad have infringed upon the personal liberties of Muslims.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  171. Talha says:
    @Oikeamielinen

    It’s a shame when your own dog bites you.

    Absolutely. Without some underlying set of principles providing some sort of foundation in order to make determinations on or prioritize values, it becomes an incoherent mess and a offended serpent growing ever larger and ever more offended as it swallows its own tail.

    Peace.

  172. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    “if you’re a liberal trying to erase national identity it makes perfect sense to supress holocaust denial”

    The straw man argument of holocaust denial is promoted by vested interest group without ever offering any proof. These groups wear different hats but report to same power which doesn’t want any open public discussion or any academic research which can offer historical perspectives on numbers, moralities, morbidity , antecedent causes ,the sites of the killings and the mechanism of the mass killing . They come with not one but many priori and assumptions which other are supposed to accept.

    Insistence and imposition of this broad frame of reference has actually led personas, cults groups nationalities to claim ,insist,and deny and thus obtain exclusivity and protection from scrutiny examination and criticism.

    We can couch it in terms of liberal or conservative and thus trap ourselves in group thinking but the motive itself is antithetical to human progress, to justice, and to necessary positive changes.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  173. AaronB says:
    @anon

    Of course they don’t want anyone questioning the holocaust, it is a major plank in the prosecution case against nationalism. They are also afraid that by minimizing it, it will reduce vigilance, and create conditions for similar things to happen again. Its important for liberals to show that left unchecked, nationalism leads to horrible things.

    Also, look at the people doing the questioning. They are always unreconstructed nationalists with an agenda – to destroy liberalism.

    Liberals themselves admit they are not in favor of unrestricted free speech. Certain speech that is very damaging to the liberal agenda, they will restrict, while they will allow criticism of the liberal agenda to a degree greater than most traditional societies would allow of their mores, is their- until recently quite justified – claim.

    Do I think its right to suppress it? No. I think if its found that only 3 or 4 million Jews died it changes nothing, and the more extreme claims that it never happened are so silly they are self refuting.

    Beyond that, I am a pretty laisse faire kind of guy and am generally opposed to social control. Don’t get me wrong, I have no illusions – the guys who are whining about their free speech being infringed will be the first to suppress speech they dont like the moment they are in power.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  174. AaronB says:
    @Ray Caruso

    Omg that link is horrifying!

    So Muslims think you wait in the grave until Judgement Day, and if you weren’t a great Muslim you will suffer the Tortures of the Grave, being eaten by worms, and one way to avoid this is to die a martyr.

    What a wicked tool of social control to get young men to die for an elite! I see the value in religion and think humans need religion, but this is the kind of bad, oppressive religion Enlightenment figures like Voltaire railed against. You can kind of see their point.

    There are good things in Islam, but good God this religion is in need of some kind of reformation.

  175. FB says: • Website
    @Joe Levantine

    Call it what you will, but the basic truth remains…our system [capitalist or some derivative thereof] is all about the PARASITE CLASS taking advantage of the ordinary people…

    And until you and others who fail to realize this wake up, nothing will change…

    Saying that ‘this is not a free market’ doesn’t mean anything…what would that mythical ‘free market’ look like, a unicorn…?

    Why hasn’t it ever happened…?

    The only way to make sure the so-called ‘market’ works for the people, is to have an AUTHORITY that is going to enforce that…

    Right now, it looks like the CPC is the only government that is doing that…

    There is nothing wrong with people having an opportunity to have a business of their own if they are inclined to choose that path in life, instead of being say a doctor or an engineer or some other necessary profession…

    The Chinese system allows for that, but it also makes sure that people who acquire a lot of money can’t use that money to make things worse for everybody, which is what we have here…

    Look at Bill Gates…sure he had one good idea which made him huge money [or at least he teamed up with a guy who knew what he was doing, the late Paul Allen]…that doesn’t mean that he is now full of great ideas and using that huge hoard of cash for really good things…is he…?

    From what I can see he is spending his 100 billion on very very bad things [dodgy vaccines, promoting biotechnology that could be a Pandora’s box that science doesn’t fully understand yet etc]…

    That’s a very poor allocation of resources…it would be much better if the authorities had taken that money and put it to better use…

    Or look at King Bezos…he dominates online retailing, but what does he really add to the equation…?

    Sure any mom and pop can open an online store on Amazon…but why should one man profit from that…if you travel through small towns and villages in Europe you will still see farmer’s markets in the town square, which is a PUBLIC space…should all of those public spaces be given to a King Bezos, so that only he can milk free money from an activity that has been going on for a thousand years…?

    The online marketplace could be run the same way, as a public utility, so that everyone who wants to run a mom and pop shop online can do it better and more cheaply, and we all win because we will pay lower prices by cutting out Bezos the middleman…

    The point is that we NEED a government that is going to do that, cut out the middlemen…that is called providing a true and free marketplace that serves OUR interests, not the interests of individual billionaires, oligarchs, monopolists and plutocrats…

    The private health care system is a perfect example of how the government is ACTIVELY inserting a useless middleman [insurance companies] into an activity that would otherwise cost us far less and be much better…

    From what I could understand of your confusing post, you do seem to have a basic grasp about how the banking system is making a lot of problems…but the only solution is to make banking a PUBLIC UTILITY…

    Again, only a government of and for the people can do that…money is simply a symbol, a placeholder for a tangible thing that has value…it was never meant to somehow multiply by itself and give birth to more money…Aristotle said 2,000 years ago that money giving birth to money is ‘unnatural’ and ‘despised’…

    Nor was it meant to be a chokehold by which to control people’s lives…

    So while you may understand some part of the problem, you need to understand that the way to correct these problems is not going to be with bandaids like ‘fines’ for banks and things like that…that’s just silly…

    The entire Perpetual Ponzi Pyramid needs to be torn down…but it is going to come crashing down on its own sooner or later anyway…and then what…?

    As for feminism, that too was a requirement of the Postwar Ponzi system, for exactly the same reason as immigration…so that women could also become borrowers and thereby feed the Ponzi banking system that is at the head of the capitalist system…

    We must always put the cart AFTER the horse…first came Ponzi capitalism, then came women in the workplace [feminism] and immigration…

    • Agree: Joe Levantine
    • Replies: @Joe Levantine
  176. German_reader says:
    @AaronB

    Speaking of “liberals” is pretty vague, imo one also needs to take into account that France with its colour-blind, laicist approach is a rather different model from countries with an official multiculturalist ideology (e.g. Canada, the English-speaking world more generally).
    Anyway, a ban on Holocaust denial (or other laws on “correct” views of history, they’ve also got others in France, like about the Armenian genocide, also the slave trade iirc), while bad imo, isn’t quite on the same level as allowing/prohibiting caricatures of religious figures, those issues aren’t the same unless one has a commitment to 100% free speech, which has never existed in France. To demonstrate hypocrisy as claimed in this article one would have to show that there’s a ban or de facto ban on drawing cartoons of Moses or other revered figures in Judaism, and I don’t think that exists in France.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @AaronB
    , @anon
  177. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I will say it has done so to a greater degree than drawings of Muhammad have infringed upon the personal liberties of Muslims.

    Well, since I hold that those drawings don’t infringe upon the personal liberties of Muslims at all, that leaves us with the outstanding product of zero.

    Anyways …

  178. @German_reader

    To demonstrate hypocrisy as claimed in this article one would have to show that there’s a ban or de facto ban on drawing cartoons of Moses or other revered figures in Judaism, and I don’t think that exists in France.

    Not at all.

    As you readily acknowledge, France is not consistent in its protection of free speech, which rather clearly makes the case for its hypocrisy. Let cartoonists do as they please, yet criminalize academics for arriving at empirically reached conclusions unsettling to the usual suspects?

    As a matter of principle, if you’re opposed to anti-blasphemy legislation, you should be opposed to sacrilege against Europe’s only official religion: Holocaustianity.

    This isn’t even debatable.

    • Agree: Joe Levantine
    • Replies: @German_reader
  179. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    Exactly, drawing Moses would be the equivalent. And if Jews threatened non Jews with violence if they draw Moses, I guarantee you that there would be outfits like CH popping up to do exactly that.

    I dont like the idea of people telling me what to do in my own house. That Muslims are telling others in their own countries not to draw pictures of their prophet is just going to make certain people want to do exactly that. Of course, if people were going into Muslim countries and provoking them in their house that would be wrong.

    But there is a part of me that is glad that there are people out there telling Muslims they have absurd chutzpah trying to threaten other countries for not respecting their sacred cows.

    A while back Thailand tried to pressure America to punish or shut down an American who was saying insulting things about their king. Americans rightly laughed at the request and it got bad press in America.

    The idea that God’s honor needs to be defended strikes me as an insult to God. And threatening others to respect your sacred cows seems childishly insecure.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
    , @German_reader
  180. @FB

    “ The online marketplace could be run the same way, as a public utility, so that everyone who wants to run a mom and pop shop online can do it better and more cheaply, and we all win because we will pay lower prices by cutting out Bezos the middleman…”

    Yes, totally agree especially that the technology of the online system was created and financed by the government which means by taxes paid by the public.

    About the banking industry acting as a public service, while I agree with you, I have on this site often gone further than that by advocated the total abolition of usury as I agree with many Christians scholars like Saint Thomas Aquinas, writers Michael Hoffman and E. Michael Jones, who label usury as the mother of all evils.

    All the ideas that you propose are very valuable, though the challenge is how to get any system to implement these proposals without drifting into a centralised tyranny that could become very oppressive. When Xi assumed power in China, he sent about one thousand persons from the richest families in China to jail after opening corruption cases against them. Yet, the CCP is stifling free expression and imposing a social credit system along with face recognition on a large scale, not to forget the excesses of the Maoist era and the Great Leap Forward.

    All systems have their positive and negative points but I stick to the belief that what is more important than the system of governance is the kind of moral fibre that any society has. Here, philosophy and religion have to play their role. Looking at the medical care system along with big pharma, the welfare and warfare state, I cannot but agree with you that the whole setup is made for leeches and parasites. What I see as the best way forward is a decentralised system of governance along the Swiss model but that is free of all kinds of monopolies and where money is nothing more than a means of exchange and a store of wealth. Money breeding money is not only a sin but an aberration to the natural law as we cannot allow something innately sterile to procreate. Unfortunately getting from here to there will never materialise before totally neutering the influence of the Powers That Be, a task that has been tried unsuccessfully on a few occasions in history.

    • Replies: @FB
  181. anon[418] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    a ban or de facto ban on drawing cartoons of Moses or other revered figures in Judaism, and I don’t think that exists in France”

    People decide what they think is sacred important and vital. You cant decide whats important for them. Hindus and Muslim and even Buddhist dont like their leaders being portrayed in grotesque ways .They don’t care if their political economic histories or negative influences on other are discussed openly or in scathing tone . They dont care if their liberation history or current influences are explored and questioned . They even won’t mind if the atrocities committed by their leaders are elaborated an exposed . They cant force the authors to go to UK to publish book like “ Islamic/Hindu /Buddhist Lobby and American Foreign Policy” .That will be published in NYTimes Guardian and in USA .

    It’s different for the Chosen Tribe .Try to discuss the roles they played in WW1 and WW2 post revolution Soviet and the wars they caused in ME starting from 1948 to the Iraq war,Syrian war and sanctions on Iran.

    Free speech adherents don’t have to limit themselves to religious icons . Thats a false narrative and false choice.

    World doesn’t benefit from drawing Islam’s prophet or Hindu Goddess or Buddha in most obscene ways . But the world will benefit by questioning the roles of the Chosen in fomenting wars from 1900 .

    • Replies: @AaronB
  182. @AaronB

    Exactly, drawing Moses would be the equivalent.

    No.

    Holocaust denial is the correct equivalent as self worship is the length and breadth of the Jewish religion. Everything is secondary and optional.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  183. German_reader says:
    @AnonStarter

    France is not consistent in its protection of free speech

    Free speech as an absolute good has never existed in continental Europe like it has in the US. You’re looking at this from an American perspective, French political culture is different.

    As a matter of principle, if you’re opposed to anti-blasphemy legislation, you should be opposed to sacrilege against Europe’s only official religion: Holocaustianity.

    The two issues aren’t comparable…blasphemy is about religious claims regarding divinity, revelation etc., whereas the laws against Holocaust denial are referring to a historical event which is (just barely) within living memory.
    As I see it several reasons for laws against Holocaust denial could be adduced:
    1.) It’s hurtful to those who survived the Holocaust and their close relatives (an argument that will admittedly soon lose much of its force with the death of the last real survivors), and it’s a matter of decency to defend people who were victims of mass murder against claims which implicitly brand them as liars.
    2.) Holocaust deniers usually claim that it’s all a hoax made up by Jews, and would presumably like to act against Jews (up to maybe including another mass murder); therefore laws against Holocaust denial are necessary to protect Jews.
    3.) Given the destruction Nazism brought over Europe, it’s important for peace and reconciliation in Europe to keep the memory alive and prevent any obfuscation of the historical record (similar arguments are made in some Eastern European countries for laws about the memory of Stalinist crimes).

    Anyway, I don’t really agree with those arguments, imo all laws which seek to enshrine historical truths are questionable and potentially harmful to historical research. And as a German I obviously have no interest in many aspects of how the Holocaust today is commemorated and used for all manner of dubious purposes. However imo the case that can be made for laws against Holocaust denial is rather different imo than the case prohibiting caricatures of Mohammed. I don’t think anybody has ever argued that those cartoons could incite violence against Muslims or something of the sort…in fact the argument is rather that it will “provoke” violence by Muslims.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  184. @AnonStarter

    Well, since I hold that those drawings don’t infringe upon the personal liberties of Muslims at all, that leaves us with the outstanding product of zero.

    The Muslims certainly react in a way that would make a neutral observer think that there was some sort of existential theat to Muslims as a group, if this neutral observer was to witness the reaction of Muslims in isolation without knowing why they did the attacks. Of course we also have Erdogan and a whole host of other wannabe leaders of the Ummah vying for pole position in who can be the most Islamist, and are whipping up their fifth columns within Europe into a fine lather.

    In the end, one can say the problem is that of foreign influence. It is outrageous that obvious interlopers are having so much influence in the destiny of European natiin states while the media goes mental about a few Russian placed adverts on Facebook, calling this a “threat to out democracy”.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  185. German_reader says:
    @AaronB

    But there is a part of me that is glad that there are people out there telling Muslims they have absurd chutzpah trying to threaten other countries for not respecting their sacred cows.

    All the more so since Muslims often express highly negative views about other religions (one just needs to read the comments by Muslims here ranting against the Trinity for example).
    Personally I find the Charlie Hebdo cartoons pretty vulgar and fairly stupid, and obviously it’s not a good idea to go out of one’s way to offend Muslims. However, if one isn’t Muslim and thinks about the matter, imo can only conclude that Mohammed was a highly flawed individual, possibly a delusional madman or a very successful fraudster (provided he actually existed like described in Muslim tradition, and isn’t just an 8th-century fiction). I suspect that a lot of Muslims would like to make any such statements impossible through their threats of violence, it’s indeed about domination for many of them.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  186. AaronB says:
    @anon

    The reasons for not questioning the holocaust are not because its sacred, but because it serves the liberal agenda to show that nationalism leads to great evil, and because it might make people think the dangers of bigotry aren’t that severe.

    No one is saying, the holocaust is really important to Jews, so we must not hurt their feelings by questioning it. What they are saying is, if you question it you might show nationalism isnt that bad, and that interferes with our agenda of erasing nations, and you might cause people to be less vigilant about things like racism and bigotry if they don’t think it might lead to a very bad place.

    Its purely concerned with practical effects, not with hurting anyone’s feelings or respecting other peoples sacred symbols.

    Moses is really important to Jews, he’s considered the greatest Rabbi, and it would hurt Jewish feelings if people caricatured him, but there is no ban on doing so. In fact, shows like the Simpsons did fo very funny parodies of Old Testament figures that were disrespectful, and no Jew cared.

    Muslims on the other hand are saying people who are not Muslim must respect their sacred symbols even when they are in their own countries and doing something for educational purposes. This is a quite astonishing extension of their religious reach. They are trying to coerce others to accept their religious standards and live by them.

    It’s different for the Chosen Tribe .Try to discuss the roles they played in WW1 and WW2 post revolution Soviet and the wars they caused in ME starting from 1948 to the Iraq war,Syrian war and sanctions on Iran

    I am against excessive social control and think these things should be freely discussed. Based on the quality of the discussion here on Unz, I dont think there is any danger to mainstream historiography.

    But the reason liberals don’t wish to permit discussions of these things is because they are seen as fomenting racial hatred, violence, and social discord, especially against a group that is seen to have suffered terribly from these things. So again, there is no equivalence between this and hurting Muslim feelings.

    You may disagree with liberal agenda and mainatream history. I am only objecting to making an equivalence between hurting Muslim feelings and things that may have genuine anti-liberal effects in society and are objected to on practical grounds. Its natural not to mind the first but object to the second.

  187. AaronB says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Could be, but questioning the holocaust isn’t permitted purely on practical grounds, not because it might hurt the feelings of Jews who worship themselves.

    Questioning the holocaust is seen as lessening awareness of how bad nationalism can be, and reducing the seriousness with which people regard bigotry because it won’t be seen as leading to such terrible atrocities. These are purely practical considerations about social consequences.

    Nobody cares about offending Jews. If they did, they wouldn’t allow criticism of circumcision or kosher laws, which are regularly criticized in Europe.

  188. FB says: • Website
    @Joe Levantine

    I generally agree with everything you said here, but I am cautious about drawing conclusions about Xi and China, since this has long been an area of very active propaganda and demonization…

    I don’t trust ANYTHING we hear on this score, and in fact I assume most of it to be false…

    Still, some good food for thought in all of this…

    • Thanks: Joe Levantine
  189. @Talha

    As-salaamu ‘alaikum!

    Well done, akhi, alhamdulillah.

    Mufti Caruso would make an excellent addition to the ranks of da’esh. Same mindset, same extremism.

    Another hadith to supplement those you’ve cited:

    “When my ummah has fallen to corruption, whoever holds fast to my sunnah will receive the reward of one hundred martyrs.”

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Poco
    , @Talha
  190. Could be, but questioning the holocaust isn’t permitted purely on practical grounds, not because it might hurt the feelings of Jews who worship themselves.

    Ofcourse feelings aren’t the only factor. There is the extortion racket that goes with the Holocaust industry. There is also moral cover for Israel’s atrocities. Don’t make like this is the left’s pet project while the Jews are just passive bystanders.

    Nobody cares about offending Jews. If they did, they wouldn’t allow criticism of circumcision or kosher laws, which are regularly criticized in Europe.

    As another commentator said, it’s not up to others to determine what a group should and shouldn’t find sacred. We cannot expect Muslims and Jews to share the exact same priorities regarding what is sacrosanct. Jews are no more tolerant of free speech than Muslims are. It’s just that Jews can destroy someone’s life via remote control (job dismissals, character assasinations) while Muslims don’t have that power and so some of them use guns and knives instead. The outcome, with regards to free speech, is the same.

  191. @AaronB

    Perpetuating the Holocaust legend is probably in the interests of Muslims in Europe in many ways, even if they don’t have much sympathy for the stock from which Palestinian killers are drawn from.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AnonStarter
  192. @German_reader

    Free speech as an absolute good has never existed in continental Europe like it has in the US. You’re looking at this from an American perspective, French political culture is different.

    Yes, as you’ve demonstrated, French political culture is shaped — and therefore biased — by a sensitivity to Jewish suffering or the potential thereof that is itself premised upon accepting at face value the historical integrity of a narrative which objective academic scrutiny has, in important respects, effectively undermined.

    The first argument you adduce is the very rationale advanced for “hate speech” legislation. Hurt feelings are not a sound criterion for determining the acceptability of speech, as they prove far too subjective a litmus test to practically apply.

    Your second argument is an amalgam of logical fallacies: ad absurdum and Slippery Slope, and as such, also easily dismissed. The very term “Holocaust denial” is itself a weapon of Jewish propaganda used to vilify mere skeptics as Nazis.

    The third argument treats acceptance of the “official narrative” of Jewish suffering during WWII as a religious tenet, precluding scientific inquiry. It’s as anti-Enlightenment values as it gets.

    And as a German I obviously have no interest in many aspects of how the Holocaust today is commemorated and used for all manner of dubious purposes.

    Of course not.

    Why should you have any interest in how your own government has been extorted of millions of dollars for crimes that neither you nor millions of other Germans had a role in perpetrating? Why should you concern yourself with the reality that the Holocaust™ is systematically exploited as a means of justifying Israel’s ongoing criminality against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine? Certainly your country hasn’t run interference for Israel in this respect. Heaven forfend.

    However imo the case that can be made for laws against Holocaust denial is rather different imo than the case prohibiting caricatures of Mohammed.

    Even if we were to accept this, the case nevertheless betrays duplicity. Pragmatically, it treats the Holocaust™ just as many Muslims approach the Prophet — that is to say, as a religiously inviolable matter.

  193. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    The Muslims certainly react in a way that would make a neutral observer think that there was some sort of existential theat to Muslims as a group, if this neutral observer was to witness the reaction of Muslims in isolation without knowing why they did the attacks.

    I can’t argue with this, of course, but then the same may be said of your own argument about Birmingham: that you’re facing some kind of existential threat.

    And yet you can’t provide a single example of how this is so.

  194. Eric Zemmour, the fiery far-right spokesman, a commenter with its own prime-time slot on a major TV channel

    Cnews is by far not a major French TV channel. Zemmour is not far-right, he is conservative.

  195. AaronB says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Without question you are correct. The holocaust is a central plank in de-nationalizing Europe and eventually the world and creating a society based on enlightened reason. Look at where nationalism leads, they say, mass murder!

    Muslims certainly benefit from this, as it allows them to immigrate to Europe since liberals are trying to erase the concept of a nation.

    If you want to rehabilitate nationalism, you may have to show that it doesn’t necessarily lead to war and atrocity. And I think there are ways to do this.

    I am inspired here by my studies of Buddhism. Many people think Buddhism is the obliteration of individual differences into one formless void (as globalism tries to do). But the more I read, the more I discover that it is about the stressing of connection and interdependence, not the loss of individuality.

    Likewise, liberals think to avoid war and conflict we have to erase national distinctions and homogenize the worlds peoples. But in fact, conflict can be avoided by stressing the interdependence of a world of individual nations. The attempt to forcibly homogenize the world may be its own source of conflict, as we are now seeing.

    Generally one sided solutions are mistakes. Individuality plus connection may recognize both sides of the human experience and may be superior to forced homogenization or extreme nationalism.

    And that is another point to stress. Old style nationalism was bellicose and competitive, leading to tragedy. A new nationalism might stress individuality plus connection and interdependence. But forced homogenization clearly is becoming a new source of conflict and defeating the purpose it was intended for.

    • Replies: @anon
  196. @AnonStarter

    I can’t argue with this, of course, but then the same may be said of your own argument about Birmingham: that you’re facing some kind of existential threat.

    And yet you can’t provide a single example of how this is so.

    Outside of physical destruction, I can see no greater existential threat than the threat of demographics change and population replacement. This is not just a case of me whining about a few Muslim who make up but a small percentage of the population, but about a growing population of highly ethnocentric and nepotistic people asserting itself within the UK and using their influence to change the culture in the favour of their own ethnic group, of course other non-Muslim, non-British groups also do this but besides the Jews there is no stronger lobby in the UK than the Muslim lobby.

    Let me put this in a way that you as a Muslim might understand, imagine if India were to start mass migrating it’s people into the Muslim majority Kashmir Valley, thus putting in motion the demographic changes in the region, the native Kashmiris would see this as an existential threat. Luckily you don’t have to imagine this scenario as this is exactly what is happening in real life, and the reaction of the Kashmiris is not that nonchalant, certainly not as nonchalant as invasion apologists like you expect Western populations be in the face of their replacement.

    Kashmir Muslims fear demographic shift as thousands get residency
    Up to 25,000 people granted domicile certificates raising fears of the beginning of demographic change in Kashmir.

    Someone needs to tell them about the wonders of diversity, why would Al-Jazeera claim “Kashmiri Muslims” are worried implying a consensus? Surely it is only Kashmiri Supremacists who are worried about this “Great Replacement Conspiracy”…

    • Thanks: Commentator Mike
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @AnonStarter
  197. AaronB says:

    As another commentator said, it’s not up to others to determine what a group should and shouldn’t find sacred. We cannot expect Muslims and Jews to share the exact same priorities regarding what is sacrosanct. Jews are no more tolerant of free speech than Muslims are. It’s just that Jews can destroy someone’s life via remote control (job dismissals, character assasinations) while Muslims don’t have that power and so some of them use guns and knives instead. The outcome, with regards to free speech, is the same.

    Ok, but I’m trying to explain to you that suppressing holocaust denial isn’t because its sacred to Jews. Its done because it is seen as leading to negative social consequences and it doesnt advance the liberal agenda.

    Yes, both liberals and Jews don’t tolerate some kinds of speech. Muslims don’t tolerate speech that hurts their feelings and offends them. Jews and liberals won’t tolerate speech that they think leads to negative social consequences or a real threat to their communities.

    On the one hand its an emotional consideration on the other its practical.

    If Jews tried to suppress mockery of Moses, say, you’d have a point. Moses is every bit as sacred to Jews as Mohammed is to Muslims, but Jews dont try and stop others from mocking him if they wished. But speech that they see as potentially endangering them, they will stop.

    Ofcourse feelings aren’t the only factor. There is the extortion racket that goes with the Holocaust industry. There is also moral cover for Israel’s atrocities. Don’t make like this is the left’s pet project while the Jews are just passive bystanders

    For sure Jews benefit from maintaining the memory of the holocaust as well. There is no doubt of that. And I agree it is sometimes used by Jews to exploit gentiles, which is unfortunate (for myself i am embarrassed by the holocaust and would just as soon it fade from memory. I do not want to be seen as primarily a victim. Many Jews agree with me).

    However, there are good practical reasons that have nothing to do with sacred symbols, for why Jews and liberals want the memory of the holocaust to be perpetuated.

    You may disagree. You may think questioning the holocaust will lead to positive social consequences. I am just saying that the question about the holocaust is practical while the question about CH caricatures are about hurting Muslims feelings. They are not in the same category.

    Moreover, CH caricatures are seen as deconstructing national identity and fighting superstition, two sources of conflict according to liberals, so from the practical piv of social consequences CH caricatures are seen as meritorious advances in the struggle to achieve a society based on enlightened reason. A moral duty, even.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
  198. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    invasion apologists like you

    No, I’m not one of those, thank you very much. You’ve provided a good response.

    I certainly appreciate the rationality of your position and I am not one to deny that demographics is, in fact, destiny. In fact, I’m not against immigration restriction per se. I hold that nation-states are entitled to mandate practical restrictions as the need arises. Mr. Unz himself made an excellent case for this in his National Public Radio debate, eviscerating the proposition of unfettered immigration for the purpose of employment.

    So I won’t argue this point. As I’ve said earlier in this thread, being innate republicans, most serious Muslims from abroad never even think of migrating westward. And as Talha has proven, it isn’t the knowledgeable and sincere Muslim who poses a threat to the west, it’s those who have fallen away from their faith.

    Of course, you have every right to labor for a change in your immigration policy, just as you have every right to labor for the establishment of law that protects your liberty.

    And I wish you all the best in so doing.

  199. @German_reader

    the comments by Muslims here ranting against the Trinity

    There is a grand total of one — count it, one — troll purporting to be Muslim who dishes out crude invective that is clearly not indicative of proper conduct.

    You’re really grasping at straws here.

    • Replies: @Talha
  200. Metropole says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Hmm … The European Romans only acted against Jesus on the instigation of the non-European Jews.

    For years I’ve been reading about how Jews are behind all the evils in the West–atheism, banking, political corruption, Hollywood, wars, pornography, feminism, LGBTQ movement, Kennedy murder, 9/11 etc. etc. etc.

    The total number of Jews in the world is barely 15 million or so, compared to maybe 1.5 billion whites. That’s a ratio of 100:1. What kind of civilization is it that allows itself to be enslaved by a tiny minority?

    As far as I know, neither in man-made nor in divine law is it accepted as an excuse for committing a crime or sin to say that “xyz made me do it.”

    If God exists and there’s judgement, as I believe, then everyone will have to account for their own actions. Saying that Satan made me do it won’t work.

    • Replies: @Robjil
    , @Commentator Mike
  201. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Perpetuating the Holocaust legend is probably in the interests of Muslims in Europe in many ways, even if they don’t have much sympathy for the stock from which Palestinian killers are drawn from.

    I see where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree.

    Muslims must once again return to their roots in Medina, where the world’s first federal constitutional republic was established, providing a guarantee of religious liberty to all under the aegis of their administration. They must appreciate how this unprecedented legacy eventually served to inspire seismic change throughout the governments of Europe and the formation of the American republic itself.

    Riding the Holocaust™ bandwagon is entirely anathema to this undertaking. And this Muslim opposes it unequivocally.

    • LOL: Seraphim
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  202. Robjil says:
    @Metropole

    It is top down thing.

    Top Jews or Top Shabbos Goys control most things on the top of the pyramid of humanity.

    Most people at the bottom of the Pyramid live good lives in which they believe in judgement. Thus, they treat others with respect and do good in the world. Since, the media is controlled by the top people. The little people can’t be liable for judgement about the doings of the people on the top of the pyramid. Jesus said “Father forgive them since they do not know what they doing” Luke 23:24 This same thing applies to masses who don’t know what the people at the top of humanity are doing.

    This is why the frenzy about censorship recently. The people at the top want to keep their doings a secret.

  203. Poco says:
    @AnonStarter

    What would that reward be?

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  204. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    a grand total of one — count it, one — troll purporting to be Muslim

    Yeah, I put homeboy on my ignore list fairly quickly. That was one of the fastest inductions into my list ever, he should get some sort of prize.

    Wa salaam.

  205. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    There is something I feel that’s worth visiting, and that’s the reality of indigenous Muslims. I’m not sure what it’s like in Birmingham, but here in America, most of our Muslims are native born.

    White nationalists will have to deal with this fact, which changed immigration policy will not resolve. If they move to change law concerning religious liberty, they act to undermine a foundation whose weakening could easily work against them.

    It seems that more than a few here would like that: a return to the early Middle Ages, so to speak. I don’t think they’ve really thought out the implications of this, of course. It’s a lot of armchair warfare and false machismo presented as a substitute for the hard work that will become inescapable once such change is actually affected.

    And I just don’t see them being able to actually do it.

  206. @Metropole

    What kind of civilization is it that allows itself to be enslaved by a tiny minority?

    Good question.

    If God exists and there’s judgement, as I believe, then everyone will have to account for their own actions. Saying that Satan made me do it won’t work.

    Agree.

    With regard to Jesus, I think Romans had laws to respect the religions of those they conquered, and also the Jews had considerable influence under whatever political arrangement at the time in Palestine, and since Jesus’s new religion was a threat to them they exerted that influence to have him executed.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  207. @AaronB

    Moses is really important to Jews, he’s considered the greatest Rabbi, and it would hurt Jewish feelings if people caricatured him, but there is no ban on doing so.

    Musa, Daud, Isa, etc. are also revered by Muslims but they just make a bigger fuss about the last prophet.

    • Agree: Talha
  208. @Poco

    Good question.

    We know that martyrs do not actually die, their rank in the garden being third only to the Prophets and the ‘ulama, those who know God. Their souls inhabit green birds who nest in chandeliers hung from the Throne of God, and they are ever satisfied from His bounty.

    But how might we envision this reward multiplied by one hundred?

    I cannot claim to know the definitive answer except to say that the reward is far superior.

  209. @Nodwink

    the sooner mosques and churches are converted to libraries and public toilets, the better.

    And just like the communists, you left out synagogues.

  210. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Mufti Caruso

    المفتي
    الأعظم
    الشيخ
    فضيلة
    من
    جامعة
    ويكي
    الإسلام

    They should have held a joint conference in Mosul…oh well, too late for that now.

    Another hadith

    As well as others, like these two:
    “The truthful and honest trader will be in the company of the prophets, the truthful ones (siddiqoon) and martyrs” – reported in Tirmidhi

    “There are seven martyrs besides one who is killed in the path of Allah: the victim of plague is a martyr, the one who drowns is a martyr, the one who dies of chest pain is a martyr, the one who dies of stomach infection is a martyr, the one who burns to death is a martyr, the one who is crushed under something is a martyr, and the pregnant woman who dies giving labor is a martyr.” – reported in Abu Dawud

    Again, people are free to ignore these…but why would we?

    Wa salaam.

  211. Seraphim says:
    @Commentator Mike

    When Jesus said “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” He was referring to the soldiers who were driving the nails. And they were Romans and certainly “the centurion [who] saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man”. The centurion that the tradition deemed the first Gentile Christian, Longinus.
    Meanwhile “the people (Jews) stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God”, along with the robber on the left side.
    And Roman also was the centurion whose servant Jesus healed:
    “And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour” (Matthew 8:5-13).

  212. If Jews tried to suppress mockery of Moses, say, you’d have a point. Moses is every bit as sacred to Jews as Mohammed is to Muslims, but Jews dont try and stop others from mocking him if they wished. But speech that they see as potentially endangering them, they will stop.

    A distinction without a difference.

    Jews have been mocking my people as long as I can remember. Media, TV, movies, theater, comedy. It has endangered us. I wish I could say we will stop it. Maybe we will. The Jew suffers from hubris and frequently allows his hatreds to overreach.

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  213. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    a return to the early Middle Ages

    Pffffshshwahahaha! I think like 40% of French say they have no religion. Heathens!

    I don’t think they’ve really thought out the implications of this

    They’re going to need a whole hell of a lot of rope:

    And I just don’t see them being able to actually do it.

    I think many would more prefer the 1950s or so. No foreigners (or very, very few), a racialist-based immigration policy, very little (if any) racial inter-marriage, a more traditional culture (no LGBT nonsense) though not too far in the past. Can one turn back the clock to that time or does the train of progress only go in one direction? I don’t know…guess we’ll see.

    Wa salaam.

  214. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Sorry, should have been: فضيلة الشيخ

  215. @Talha

    the one who is crushed under something is a martyr

    Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, one brother ‘alim and another shaikh rahmatullahi ‘alaih concurred that this included many of its victims — nominally Muslim or otherwise.

    was-salaam.

  216. @Ivan

    My grief with Islam is limited to that one single word: “Submission”. As a descendant of the Viking folk and mostly Norse, at that, I have some of the ethnic pride of a truly noble people. The Viking raids upon continental Europe and later upon the British Isles commenced after Chargemagne defeated the last of the “uncivilized” Germans, the Old Saxons, in a terrible battle against the entire nation. Those who did not die in battle and were later taken prisoner were given a choice by the head of the “Holy” Roman Empire: “Bow down to me as your suzerain Lord and kiss the Cross, or it’s the sword.”

    Five THOUSAND chose death over dishonor.

    Immediately following the destruction of a once free Germanic people, who in their deepest roots are also of the Nordic peoples; the Danes, the Angles and the Jutes, erected in southern Jutland a massive earthen wall which bisected the base of the peninsula. It was called the Dannevirke. They built fortified camps behind their wall.

    Next, a “Thing” or general council was called among all the Nordics, including those Angles, Jutes and Danes as well as the Scanians, the Goths, the Svear and the Norse. After that first Althing, the dragon ships began their raids upon the port cities of the Empire.

    Not only did the Nordic Folk not SUBMIT to the Empire, they struck back.

    • Replies: @Ivan
  217. @Gleimhart Mantooso

    Check out your average whitevil supremacist scum…

    MY EYES!!! MY EYES!!! …. Such dazzling beauty!! 😀

    I bet you look no better than that lowlife.

  218. @Talha

    I think like 40% of French say they have no religion. Heathens!

    Okay, maybe just forget the Middle Ages, cut to the chase, and go right back to the paleolithic age. None of that intellectual mumbo-jumbo to torment us. Just strap on a loin cloth, grab a club, and go grubbing for eats. Maybe meet the female of your dreams (wholly hirsute and feasting on fresh carrion), rap her gently over the skull, and drag her back to your nice, aromatic grotto for tea and crumpets.

    It would certainly work wonders for solving the incel issue.

    I think many would more prefer the 1950s or so.

    That depends on whether one would prefer the company of a neanderthal to … say … Elvis, which is really not as easy a choice as some might think it is.

    • LOL: Talha
  219. What If says:
    @Alex Weir

    “It’s like saying that a Palestinian kid calling an IDF battalion a bunch of rotten kikes is the cause of war in the middle east.”

    We all know from experience that Palestinian kid would shot without hesitation for offending IDF.

  220. @Talha

    I think many would more prefer the 1950s or so. No foreigners (or very, very few), a racialist-based immigration policy, very little (if any) racial inter-marriage, a more traditional culture (no LGBT nonsense) though not too far in the past. Can one turn back the clock to that time or does the train of progress only go in one direction? I don’t know…guess we’ll see.

    There is some potential with these anti-Covid measures if they become more permanent: travel bans (immigration, miscegenation), contact banning (slutting, prostitution), banning of gatherings (parties, gay parades). People may just get married and raise families for the sake of companionship and concentrate more on getting to know and appreciating their own locality and country. Of course it would be better if this resulted from conscious decision making of people instead of some social engineering directed by the state under some pandemic emergency, hoax or not, but then I guess most people need a firm hand, as Muslims know with Islam being a most rigorous case of social engineering directed by religious authority or even the state in Islamic countries. Yes we’ll have to wait and see.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Talha
  221. @Craig Nelsen

    It’s easy enough to make the argument that great damage has been done to public perception by weaponizing the Holocaust™ while airbrushing Palestinian history from the pages of American history textbooks. This is the “potential endangerment” to which he refers, an endangerment to the Manifest Destiny dogma of Zionism.

    Let’s look at it plainly: If there is really nothing to fear by open and honest scientific inquiry, then why is objectively undertaken academic scrutiny of this subject effectively outlawed? Why is it that some argue such inquiry will result in diminishing the importance of Jewish suffering and potentially yield neo-Nazism? Wouldn’t the truth reveal that we should not do so?

    Doth the lady not protest too much? Could it be that there’s something which those who routinely weaponize the Holocaust™ want to keep hidden for fear that its exposition would be fatal to their agenda?

    Enough, already. Give them their liberty and their loo wall scribblings, then politely refuse to embrace the myth that their restrictions against historical revisionism are somehow more innocuous, particularly when they serve to effectively whitewash daily-perpetrated Jewish criminality.

  222. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    There is some potential with these anti-Covid measures

    You make some cases here. People definitely can’t do all the stuff they used to and much of that actually keeps them out of trouble.

    Muslims know with Islam being a most rigorous case of social engineering directed by…

    …the Divine. As Sayyed Hossein Nasr stated:
    “In accordance with the real nature of things, it is the human that must conform to the Divine and not the Divine to the human.”

    Yes we’ll have to wait and see.

    Interesting times ahead for sure.

    Peace.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  223. What narcotics are you folks ingesting?
    Tell me so I can avoid them.

  224. @Talha

    The Koran has dozens of verses explicitly exhorting Moslems to engage in violence against non-Moslems. A hadith hardly negates the Koran, especially since these verses occur in the Medinan surahs, which are more authoritative than the earlier Meccan surahs. Plus, there are many ahaadith that contradict that one.

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

    While it’s funny how the supposedly perfect book written by God Himself contradicts itself so often, the violent verses override the peaceful ones. This is called Naskh or “abrogation”.

    You couldn’t spell your name in Arabic if your life depended on it, so yeah

    That’s the kind of stupid thing someone says when he knows he doesn’t have an actual argument. In fact, although I’m not fluent in Arabic I can read and write the alphabet. I despise the religion associated with it, as all decent men do, but that doesn’t mean I can’t find Arabic to be an interesting language. The Bible is very beautiful in Arabic. You can hear some of it here:

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AnonStarter
  225. @Commentator Mike

    What kind of civilization is it that allows itself to be enslaved by a tiny minority?

    One might as well ask what kind of body it is that allows itself to be infected by a virus.

    Had the subordination of Edom to Judah been readily apparent, it would have been forestalled by preventative measures. Some will point to 109 expulsions as evidence that it had been forestalled, though the matter runs a bit deeper than this, particularly since this many recurrent expulsions didn’t appear to drive the message home.

    Pauline doctrine was a set up, Paul himself being an agent of Temple Israel. What he served to introduce was a novel syncretism between paganism and Judaism, one characterized by glaringly obvious borrowings from preceding pagan cosmologies and, as such, palatable to the pagan appetites of Europe while bearing the hallmark of a distinctly Jewish apotheosis, incorporating just enough of the Jewish worldview as divine writ so as to engender sympathy and acquiescence among Gentile adherents.

    The originally intended effect of Pauline doctrine took nearly two millennia to realize, but here we are in the present, the inheritors of Christian heritage now submitted to Israel as they have been at no time in history.

    I doubt too many could have seen it coming so many centuries ago. It certainly appeared as if Jesus ‘alaihis-salaam heralded an alternative to Judaism.

    Question is, was it Paul of Tarsus who actually introduced it? Or was it something else? Perhaps a unique worldview that actually protected the liberty of individuals and communities other than those entrusted with leadership?

    Now why would Jews be interested in concealing something like that?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  226. What If says:
    @Talha

    If Muslims find French culture repellent, why do they accept such generous financial support from the Government, i.e. Non Believers?

    Simply, because French gov, provides such support. They did not move to France or anywhere in Europe to ask for benefits. Benefits were already there, so why not? France has been non French for many years ago.

    French elites spent enough time in Muslim countries, they should have known who are they dealing with. Do not blame Muslims. France invited them, perhaps under pressure by Jews, for whatever reasons. It is not Muslim fault that French elites are in clutches of Jewish bankers.

    Do not get me wrong. I am not a Muslim. A fellow Christian, different variation though. I lived on Balkans among Muslims for 30 years. People just as everyone else, same blood as “us”. Muslims in Bosnia are not Arabs, or Turks that stayed after 500 years. It was an insult to call Bosnian Muslim a Turk. Bosnian Muslims were not born into Islam. They blood brothers, Slavic people, like Croats and Serbs, Catholic and Orthodox, respectively. They were in constant contact with neighbors/brothers. Croats were Christianized early, perhaps in 11-12 century, Serbs a bit later, by different variation of Christianity, due to geography.

    Turks came to Bosnia in 1459., yes exact year is known and recorded. Population in Bosnia was not either Catholic nor Orthodox.

    Most of the time, Bosna as land was under Serbian, Magyar or Croatian rulers. Yet, they, Bosnians, Slavic people, with the same language as neighbors, never accepted Christianity. Yet they were not pagans. They believed in God, had their own “church”, no priests, no church buildings, no church possessions. “Priests” were wise and respected people, on the move, living as guests with fellow people. They did not have nobility either. Rather egalitarian society. They were literate people, used some form of early Cyrillic alphabet, based of course on Greek. Egalitarian society, no state and state apparatus.

    Egalitarian society, that does not work in 11-12 century, so they were constantly being invaded, from the east (Serbs, later Turks), west – Crats and north – Catholic Magyars. They would run into the mountains and forests before invaders. Some could not run fast enough and were captured, and of course, converted to Christianity. Some Eastern Bosnians became Orthodox, in time begun to call themselves Serbs. Some Weston and Central Bosnians became Catholics, due to contacts wit Croats (Western) and Magyars (Hungarian) from North, they called themselves Croats eventually.

    Bosnians who were able to escape, continued without official religion – in mountains and forests. In time, more of them got Christianized, perhaps were forced to accept religious teachings, without real and deep beliefs. For about 200 years they were playing tag with Serbo/Croat/Magyar invaders. To be trues, invaders did not come from very organized states, it was rather local potentates who wrestled for land, some of them switching creed depending on convenience. Nobody was really that religious anyway, but at least most pretended to be, , went to church, celebrated Christmas and Easter.. Churches were built by potentates, to show off, or to pay for their sins (butchering and pillaging neighbors).

    When Turks came, Serbs, Bosnians and Croats had different fate. Turks never actually kept Croatian lands for long. They did invade, but never managed to root themselves in. So Croats remained Catholic, and still are. Serbia was not conquered in a flash. First conflicts were in 1371, in todays Bulgaria, Turks won. Turks destroyed Serb/Bulgarian army so much, that it took them 18 years to attack again, 1389, Kosovo. After Kosovo, Turkish advance was slow, but steady, north and west. Serbia was rather strong back then, perhaps the most formidable force Turks encountered, Turks went around Constantinople, and conquered everything around it, including Serbia, Bulgaria, and parts of Romania. Then, in 1452 they took Constantinople.

    That was the end of Second Rome, after 1000 years. You would not know that, after all they were not Catholic, those Greeks pretending to be Romans, and despicable Slavs, What people on Earth call themselves Slaves and expect to be taken seriously by civilized Europe, right? Wrong. Despicable Slavs had serious state around Kiev, and several “states” in Balkans and Central Europe. Serbian state was rather big, for Balkan conditions, perhaps stronger than Byzantium at the time which was past her prime long time ago.

    While battling Serbs, Turks sent one detachment west, to Bosnia and took it within days. Remember, Bosnians never fight back Serbs and Croats, they were peace loving people, with no central power. So in 1459 Bosnia fell. There were nobles in Bosnia by that time. Turks were there to stay, so most of nobility instantly converted to Islam, to keep the privileged status. They did not care for lesser people, farmers and shepherds they ruled. Turks accepted the deal, Turkish language was different from Serbo-Croatian, so it worked well for all. Except for farmers and ship herders. Most of Bosnians, previously converted to Orthodox or Catholic creed, followed the leader and converted to Islam, too. Some stubborn ones, remained Catholics and Orthodox.

    Bosnians are example of people becoming Muslims without being born Muslim. Perhaps only Muslims that are not from Asia. They remained Muslims till today. In former Yugoslavia, many of them became secular, atheists, since there were no Turks, godless communists were in power. Cuius regio eius religio. Who has power, dictates religion, even if it is not a religion. Croats and Slovenians remained avid Catholics Serbs, in Serbia and in Bosnia, under communistic rule drifted away a bit from religion, but are coming back, thank you.

    When Turks invaded, many of Bosnians converted to Islam. Islam was accepted quickly and honestly. Just like Latino American Incas and Mayas became more devout Christians than Spaniards.

    I never thought of that, but there must or could have been a reason or justification why they never accepted kind of Christianly around them. If Pope of the times was Alexander VI, family name Borgia, I could see reason to dislike Catholic creed. As for Orthodox, that was religion of Byzantium, which was constant threat to them. Why would they accept religion from basically hostile civilizations?

    You may ask , why then both Serbs accepted religion from Byzantium and Croats from Germans descendants of Charlemagne, Kingdom of Franks Name Franks definitely sounds familiar, eh?. Franks ruled land of Gaul for a while, did not change the local language, but the name stuck – Frankland, or shorter, France. History is a real bitch.

    Now a bit about primitive Muslims, barbarians who invaded Christian and civilized Europe. By the way, Christians from Europe were Germanic barbarians that destroyed Roman Empire. You know, Ghots, Vandals (who left memory of them in word vandalism, I ma not sure why…)

    While battling Serbs, Turks, who initially went around Constantinople, suddenly remembered they had some unfinished business and quickly took Constantinople, in 1452, renamed it Istanbul and converted The Great Church of Aghia Sophia into a mosque. That is when you guys, western Europeans come into the picture. You see, 1452 was Renaissance and Enlightenment time in Europe, actually only Italy, city states and papal state in Rome itself. Renessainse started approximately when Arabs were driven out of Spain, after 800 years rule.

    Arabs, in their time, were much more civilized people than Europeans. Western Europe was in dark ages, and literally end of the world. Beyond England, there was nothing except big blue ocean. 500 years before Europeans learned that Earth was not flat, but a globe, Arabs in Baghdad were advanced astronomers philosophers and mathematicians. They figured out Earths diameter, about 800, AD, 600 years before European Renessainse.

    Middle East as we know it today, was Hellenized by Alexander the Great, whose personal teacher was Aristoteles. Greek texts were translated over time into Latin, Hebrew, and then into Arabic. Arabs had contacts with Persia, India and China, which were advanced civilizations compared to Europe. Byzantium was in contact with them too, mostly military, but that is how culture and civilization is spread – through wars, as we all know, right? Constantinople was place to be, with many learned people, some were Greek, some were Persian, Arab or even Turkish, Before the fall in 1452, everybody knew what was coming, so many rich people, and educated Christians emigrated – to Italy, with ideas and knowledge. Did you know that in year 800 in Baghdad Khalif introduced 5 day working week, and women were allowed in male professions, lawyer, accountants, doctors, scientists. Who would thunk that primitive Arabs, Muslims, would do something like that…

    When Muslim state in Spain collapsed, King Ferdinand and Queen Izabella took the power. They promptly expelled Jews, who lived there since time of Julius Caesar, who expelled Jews for Palestine – to Spain., due to some unresolved conflicts at the time. That time, when Caesar expelled Jews to Spain, was when that famous Jew was put on the cross, because he threw out money changers from the temple, so they falsely accused them to Pontius Pilatus, who then washed his hands, he was put on the cross, died, then disappeared from the grave, only to reappear a month later, and so on.

    Anyhow, Jews from Spain went to Italy, and brought Hellenic texts translated to Latin. That is when Europeans learned that there was ancient Greek and other things. But life in Europe was not pleasant any more. Caravans coming from Persia, India, China with silk and spaces, sought in Europe, stopped coming. Ottoman Turks held Suez canal, ok, land where Suez canal would appear some centuries later. Well, being shrewd businessmen, Turks slapped tariffs to all merchandise coming from Far East. Before Turks, it was venetian Republic, who was in charge of the trade, alas, Ottoman Turks kicked them out off the market. Western Europeans were desperate. Eastern Europeans did not care, they were conquered by Ottoman Turks and head a feeling that things would stay the same for a while. It was all about pepper, first used to preserve, or change testate of rotten meat. later, when Americans invented refrigerator, pepper was not necessary, so they began to put it in spray bottles, and for free distribute to masses on the streets.

    A naïve soul from Genova, actually believed in fairy tales by vile Muslims that Earth is a – ball, like one used in England for footsie. (That was when they knew about football, yes.) It was clearly visible and obvious that the Earth was flat, anybody could see that. A football, and it spins? Anybody can see that Sun and Moon go around the Earth. Pure heresy. Some people were burnt publicly, to explain everybody how wrong that conviction was. No serious rich person or King would even listen to lunatic from Genoa. Queen Izabella, of Spain, being unexperienced and curious, listened to the story about the football and Kitay being on the other side, decided to support the dreamer, with majority stake in the enterprise. He knew about magnetic compass, which Arabs brought from China. They also brought to Europe new symbols for numbers, and symbol for nothing, which enabled easier and more correct calculations. With Greek ideas about triangles, and practical Muslim knowledge about astronomy, the dreamer set the sail in 1492, 40 years after Turks took Constantinople. He was right. He hit coastline of China, or maybe India, he wasn’t sure. People there did not look like Chinese, and were drooping dead like flies. There were no spices either, only gold and silver. Gold and silver poured to Spain literally out of blue. Izabella traded gold for whatever European more experienced monarch had to offer.

    See the connection between Muslims and various sots of Christians. Oh, one more thing. In Serbia, after 500 years under Turks, we have mainly two kinds od archeological digs. Roman time, medieval Serbia and Byzantium, and – Turkish time. From Romans we have many things, among them baths, Romans loved to bath. Filthy Turks also bathed, when nobody normal and civilized would do such a thing. See, primitive Muslims taught Europeans to bath. On French court, they never bathed. They invented perfumes, to cover the smell.

    Basically, if it was not for Arabs and Turks, and Jews North Western Europe would have looked very different.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  227. @Talha

    “There are seven martyrs besides one who is killed in the path of Allah: the victim of plague is a martyr, the one who drowns is a martyr, the one who dies of chest pain is a martyr, the one who dies of stomach infection is a martyr, the one who burns to death is a martyr, the one who is crushed under something is a martyr, and the pregnant woman who dies giving labor is a martyr.” – reported in Abu Dawud

    Your argument is idiotic because the only way one can proactively become a Moslem martyr and escape the Punishment of the Grave is by waging violent jihad. All the other ways are happenstance. You can’t choose to die of a stomach infection or while giving labor (especially if you’re a man). If you drown, crush, or burn yourself to death on purpose, that’s mere suicide and not martyrdom. That’s why every Moslem who wants to be a martyr and enjoy the well-known sensual delights of Moslem heaven (giant see-through virgins, pearly catamites, rivers of wine) does the same thing: he wages violent jihad against the unbelievers.

  228. Robjil says:
    @Talha

    There is still “religion” in the western world. Jail time for opposing a religious idea is very common in France and many countries in “free” Europe. France is one the biggest supporters of this new religion of the western world. It regularly jails people for questioning the big 6 or even questioning that the Chosen people do wrong now or ever did in history.

    http://vjmpublishing.nz/?p=8811

    Where history becomes religion is when you aren’t allowed to question it without facing strict censure. In any society, whatever it is that you’re not allowed to question is the mainstream religion, which has to be respected otherwise the transgressor will face the wrath of God.

    Back in the day, you couldn’t question God or the Bible, else you be shunned and persecuted by your fellows. Now you can’t question whether or not the Holocaust happened. British writer David Irving got a three-year prison sentence for denying the Holocaust in Austria, and many Western groups would like to bring in similar laws in their own country.

    • Replies: @Talha
  229. anon[305] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    I am against excessive social control and think these things should be freely discussed. Based on the quality of the discussion here on Unz, I dont think there is any danger to mainstream historiography.” 189

    Really? How many people have been asked to quit jobs because of raising these? Plenty. How many people have been banned from CNN and Fox? Plenty. How many have been asked to change their stances on those positions before getting a job in administration or even in private sectors? Plenty.How many have been excoriated because of harboring doubts expressing doubts or expressing sympathies for non-chosen people ? Plenty.Would these neocons be allowed to strut free if Americans knew what they did ? Would these neocons be allowed to shape US polices on ME or be in the think tanks writing op ed against Iran or Syria if US citizen knew what their roles were in causing Iraq wars and what their roles were in other areas? No . They won’t. A cartoon of Moses can’t hurt them and cant hurt Israel but will help them fuel the charge of “anti smetism” . Exposure of the crimes will possibly force their departure and lead to markedly negative attitude to them and the country . The neocons and their other organs will definitely will portray that also as anti smetism but people will be much wiser and will see the motives .Another issue is that portraying Moses negatively will not make muslim or Christians happy because they also hold enormous positive feelings to him.

    The neocons laugh at religion ,CH laughs at religion. But those hallowed well adorned animals essentially rats do not laugh at the daily rhythmic predictable claims of the Jewish to the land because that land was given to them by the God.

    Some profound morons in support of you are priming the same empty pumps
    . Some have added the stupid argument that it helps muslims and the help is intended . I guess you can agree that the 3rd country have benefitted from WW1 and WW2 because both wars broke the back of the European countries . But a lot from 3 rd world died in the battlefields and at home.

    Zionism and hegemony of Christian-Europena have served very well so far feeding each other with nourishments . It is falling apart at the seams .

    Welcome

  230. @What If

    With regard to the early Bosnian religion you mention, I guess you’re referring to Bogomislism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism

    • Replies: @what if
  231. Talha says:
    @Ray Caruso

    And yet with all those verses and all the hadith, the scholars have come to the conclusions that I have outlined.

    That’s the kind of stupid thing someone says when he knows he doesn’t have an actual argument.

    No I have a very factual argument. The fact of the matter is that non-Muslim misunderstandings of the religion are completely irrelevant. Nobody comes to you or the websites you have cited for religious rulings. Your conclusions have absolutely no value to any Muslim in the world.

    In fact, the reason why men like Prof. David Cook mention that “the most obvious way to innocculate a Muslim from radicalism is actually just to put them in a religious school and make them learn the traditional way” is because he knows those traditional schools and institutions teach the same exact rulings that I have mentioned. Which is why, as I stated, you don’t ever see are guys that spend 5-10 years studying Islam under scholars in places like al-Azhar or Abu Noor or Sarhanpur or Qarawiyyin doing this stuff. Not one.

    People come to the men who have been studying this religion for 30-40 years to get their guidance on these matters and those who don’t are the most susceptible to becoming extremists:
    “Far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could actually be regarded as religious novices. Very few have been brought up in strongly religious households, and there is a higher than average proportion of converts. Some are involved in drug-taking, drinking alcohol and visiting prostitutes. MI5 says there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

    The Bible is very beautiful in Arabic.

    As is the Qur’an.

    Peace.

  232. Talha says:
    @Robjil

    Yes, admittedly, France is an outlier in many ways for many historical reasons.

    Peace.

  233. @Talha

    Basically if you can’t do what you want do what you can?

    I should imagine the emergency measures have killed off sex tourism, pick up artistry (PIU) and promiscuity. Still people can find alternatives to marriage for their sex drive such as porn, web cams whores an sex dolls which are all now heavily promoted, which is a negative outcome. And church and public weddings must be down but these should change with the times with couples taking their vows via web cam and get their marriage certificates issued online. It may be harder finding prospective marriage partners but they could do that online too if they can’t find them IRL. Finding money could be difficult in the downsized economy but OTOH they could save on those tickets to football games and visits to the pub. Nothing wrong with spending more time with the family, going on family outings, and establishing a family if you haven’t got one already. But I wonder if this will catch on. They talk more about marriages breaking down because of the lockdowns. I guess people just have to adapt and hopefully the positives will outweigh the negatives.

    • Replies: @Talha
  234. Talha says:
    @Ray Caruso

    Your argument is idiotic because the only way one can proactively become a Moslem martyr and escape the Punishment of the Grave is by waging violent jihad.

    Nope.

    Escaping the punishment of the grave (as well as any punishment afterlife) is relatively straightforward; repent sincerely for any sin before you die. My teachers have advised us to do a daily routine of asking for forgiveness for any and all sins in the morning and in the evening.

    You set up a straw man by citing an opinion article by a non-Muslim academic named Leor Halevi that didn’t quote a single Muslim scholar (but rather mentioned a story from an Islamist website). As I said, non-Muslim misunderstandings of our doctrines are not our problem, they are yours.
    “Say; ‘O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (39:53)

    “Allah Almighty said: ‘O son of Adam, if you call upon me and place your hope in Me, I will forgive you and I will not mind. O son of Adam, if you have sins piling up to the clouds and then ask for my forgiveness, I will forgive you and I will not mind. O son of Adam, if you come to Me with enough sins to fill the earth and then you meet Me without associating anything with Me, I will come to you with enough forgiveness to fill the earth.’” – reported in Tirmidhi

    Find me a single Muslim scholar from a Muslim source (not some polemical anti-Islam website) who says the only way you can escape the punishment of the grave is via martyrdom.

    Again, no Muslim cares what conclusions you or Leor Halevi draw by misunderstanding our religion. It’s our religion, we get to define its faith and practice.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  235. AaronB says:
    @Ray Caruso

    Well, one can avoid the Punishment Of The Grave by being a saintly Muslim – i.e follow all Muslim rituals correctly etc.

    But in reality few people can be perfect Muslims, so in practice most will suffer the Torture Of The Grave unless they die in Jihad or in the accidental ways mentioned.

    Interestingly, that article cites research among Arab youth that says they suffer extreme anxiety anout this. I dont blame them.

    This really cleared up some things for me about Arab/Muslim culture.

  236. Ivan says:
    @Vojkan

    Yes to a first approximation the Christian basis for existence and serenity is a devotion to the Truth. Jesus did not promise anyone an easy life but he did say that the Truth will set one free. We note that he didn’t say the Truth will lead to a life of ease or pleasure in the meantime. As you say those others lack this essential attribute. Their joy is the joy of being part of a crowd.

  237. Ivan says:
    @Ray Caruso

    A Christian martyr dies, offers his life in order to show that Jesus transcends this temporal realm, that the Eternal remains. while this world passes away. A Muslim shaheed on the other hand has to kill others to gain favour with his god.

  238. Ivan says:
    @Majority of One

    Submission takes many forms. For example it is said that Bismarck was able to consolidate the Prussian hold on Germany by introducing universal healthcare. Fear of death is the driver behind all welfare states and all modern states from Sweden to Singapore are welfare states. So we can say that the fear of death is the compulsion that makes men submit to the authority of the state.

  239. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I should imagine the emergency measures have killed off sex tourism, pick up artistry (PIU) and promiscuity.

    Excellent!

    They talk more about marriages breaking down because of the lockdowns.

    This is true. My wife is a family and marriage therapist/counselor and she has definitely seen a spike in people seeking marriage counseling since the lock downs started. My current teacher in Qur’anic tafsir (exegesis) is a young mufti in the Midwest, we have had to cancel multiple evening classes because he has seen a large rise in Muslim couples seeking guidance and counseling since the lock downs started (this affects everyone).

    So yeah – pluses and minuses.

    I guess people just have to adapt and hopefully the positives will outweigh the negatives.

    Yup and keep in mind that human beings have proven themselves to be amazingly resilient, so there should be optimism in place of despair.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  240. @Ray Caruso

    The Bible is very beautiful in Arabic.

    Oh, certainly.

    I myself have even referred to the Arabic Bible, since Arabic is a medium into which one may translate from language a, then re-translate to language b without any loss of meaning. A professor of linguistics with whom I was associated was employed to assist with the development of PROMIS software for this very reason.

    And when you read the account of Jacob’s Ladder in Arabic, you discover that the difference between “peace” and “ladder” is a single, tiny diacritical mark that doubles the consonant “lam,” rendering a completely different understanding of the verse. Sin, Lam, Mim is the root for the term “Islam.”

    After God sent the Jews into Babylon for their reprobate ways — their records destroyed and their native tongue outlawed — Ezra and company used another language to rewrite the record of Scripture, one that was the forerunner of Arabic as we know it today. Arabic’s role in the formation of this record can hardly be understated.

    Even the Hebrew in Song of Songs 5: 16 bears the equivalent of “Muhammad.” (Machmadim)

    And there are many more examples which will elude those who read The Bible strictly in English. Check for yourself:

    https://archive.org/details/MuhammadInTheBible_201510/page/n1/mode/2up

  241. @Talha

    You set up a straw man by citing an opinion article by a non-Muslim academic named Leor Halevi that didn’t quote a single Muslim scholar (but rather mentioned a story from an Islamist website).

    Ironically, traditional Judaism enjoins similar convictions about punishment in the grave. We could more justifiably concoct an argument that Jews become militant Zionists and join the civilian-murdering IDF as a means of avoiding that punishment.

    Ray’s choice of source material is itself quite curious.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  242. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Ray’s choice of source material is itself quite curious.

    No it’s not. You expected different from a guy who said, coming out of the gate:
    “Moslems are our enemies, have always been our enemies, and will be our enemies until the blessed day their death cult is wiped from the face of the planet.”

    Of course he’s reading the sites he mentioned. Dime a dozen, Bro.

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  243. @Talha

    The most infamous Pick Up Artist of them all Roosh V had turned to religion even before the pandemic, but rather than looking for a wife he seems to be more inclined to lead a monkish type of existence. Anyway what is telling is that before the pandemic the comment section of his new religious website had dropped down to no more than a handful of posters disappointed with the turn their guru had taken and many making fun of him and criticising him for giving up on the PUA lifestyle but since the pandemic the comment section has picked up markedly with far more favourable comments, so it would seem that many other PUAs have turned to religion in the absence of venues for practicing their pick up artistry.

    I doubt that the lockdowns affect much matrimonial happiness in strict Muslim countries. What you report is probably because in the West they have so many temptations and distractions from family life.

    But yeah, time will tell.

    • Replies: @Talha
  244. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Jews dont believe you become a martyr by dying while trying to kill others in war. Jews believe you become a martyr when you refuse to abandon Judaism under pain of death. As Ivan points out, Christian martyrdom is also very different.

    Jews believe that to the extent you were attached to your body and physical pleasures, you will suffer at seeing your body decompose. Its not a punishment for sins and you do not live in your grave until judgement day being tortured. It lasts only as long as the body decays, and it is merely a natural reaction at seeing something you were extremely attached to decay, and since we all know death is inevitable, it is a reminder to prepare yourself by loosening the hold your body has on you while you can.

    Dying a Jewish martyrs death – which would mean being killed by some oppressor for refusing to abandon Judaism – would have no impact on the pain you would feel from having been over-attached to your body and now watching it decay. As explained, its not a punishment for sin.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  245. @Talha

    You expected different from a guy who said, coming out of the gate:
    “Moslems are our enemies, have always been our enemies, and will be our enemies until the blessed day their death cult is wiped from the face of the planet.”

    Not really. I’m just noting the inherent contradiction between his purported contempt for Jews and his reliance upon Jewish sources.

    was-salaam.

    • LOL: Talha
  246. @AaronB

    Jews dont believe you become a martyr by dying while trying to kill others in war.

    Makes no difference if they believe this or not, since they do celebrate their warriors who fought and died for what they hold to be a good cause, and certainly perceive them as exulted in the eyes of God.

    As Mr. Nelsen correctly remarked, “A distinction without a difference.”

    Certainly, you’re entitled to your own perspective of Judaism and the vicissitudes of the grave, but there are plenty of other rabbis who hold perspectives different than your own. Distinguishing between inordinate attachment to the corporeal and sin itself comes off as hair-splitting, however. It certainly isn’t a distinction that proves practical for the common man.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  247. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    The most infamous Pick Up Artist of them all Roosh V

    Da king!

    turned to religion even before the pandemic, but rather than looking for a wife he seems to be more inclined to lead a monkish type of existence.

    Kind of weird, but maybe he just got so sick of meaningless sex that he just left it altogether. He’s not a young man anymore, libido kicks down a notch as you age.

    so it would seem that many other PUAs have turned to religion in the absence of venues for practicing their pick up artistry.

    Hmmmm…very interesting.

    I doubt that the lockdowns affect much matrimonial happiness in strict Muslim countries.

    To be honest, the lock downs in those countries is not as severe. I recently spoke to one of my elder uncles and asked him how things were faring in Pakistan and he said it’s actually doing OK and they are taking precautions like masks and keeping some distance and washing hands, but they cannot afford to lock down the country like a first world country; there are so many poor people that live a hand to mouth existence (basically go out for work in the morning and feed their families with their daily earnings in the evening) that there would be far more people dying from starvation than from the disease.

    So yeah, I do agree that this may be due to these particular Muslims being in the West under Western lock down conditions.

    Peace.

  248. FB says: • Website

    Well…this thread has long since degenerated into our two Muslim Meatheads tossing ‘was salaams’ back and forth…

    …while trotting out the same old ‘religion of peace’ claptrap that always follows in the wake of the neverending acts of Muslim terrorism [is there any other kind, actually?]…

    Ridiculous…of course this also brings out the various other religious nuts, both Christian and Jew, likewise trotting out various nonsense that has nothing to do with the price of bananas…or how to keep ordinary folks from becoming beheading victims while out and about in their daily lives…

    I think most ordinary folks are soon going to reach a point of ‘enough is enough’ with the completely intractable Muslim guests in our midst [if we haven’t already]…Macron is certainly speaking to the mood of ordinary folks right now, nothing more nor less…so is Kurz in Austria and other leaders in other places…

    This rhetoric is only a sign of things to come, since it has become clear that the native populations are no longer in any mood for more and more ridiculous accommodations to these hotheads…they must learn once and for all some basic civilizational norms, where it’s not okay to start exploding with violent rhetoric every time people IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY say something ‘offensive’ about Islam…

    It’s really that simple…I think we have reached a tipping point, and things are going to get much different from here on in…

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Commentator Mike
  249. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    I don’t understand why there is a confusion some people have regarding this martyr business (at least how it pertains to Islam).

    A shaheed is a martyr and one who dies for their faith (whether in a battle or not). Sumayyah bint Khayyat (ra) is considered the first martyr in Islam. She was the wife of Yasir bin Amir (ra) and, because she used to be a (most accounts say Ethiopian) slave woman with few tribal ties, she was tortured and killed by some of the Quraysh elites. Her status as martyr has nothing to do with fighting or killing anyone.

    Now, someone could indeed be on the battlefield and be fighting and killing, but they aren’t considered a shaheed unless they die.

    A soldier stepping freshly onto a battlefield can be hit with a bullet and die instantly without himself firing a shot and he would be considered a shaeed. Fighting and having killed someone and dying are not connected here in terms of a shaheed.

    For instance, Khalid ibn Walid (ra) – named the “Sword of Allah” – killed scores of men (possibly over a hundred by himself) on the battlefield, but he died in his bed reportedly lamenting that he did not die a martyr:
    “I’ve fought in so many battles seeking martyrdom that there is no spot in my body left without a scar or a wound made by a spear or sword. And yet here I am, dying on my bed like an old camel. May the eyes of cowards never rest.”

    Of course, as another Companion (ra) pointed out, there was no way he was going to be killed in battle once he was given the moniker “Sword of Allah” by the Prophet (pbuh), since Allah would not allow His sword to be shattered on the battlefield, but placed in the sheath after it had done its task.

    One does not have to kill to be a martyr, but one does have to die. And one can be fighting and killing and be rewarded for it (like Khalid ibn Walid [ra]) and never die in battle.

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  250. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Its a question of degree. Jews simply don’t glorify dying in battle or fighting the way Islam does. Jewish soldiers who die in battle are not given the special status of martyrs and are not rewarded with special access to heaven. Talha likes to bring quotes about never forgetting the sword or the bow no matter how much you may wish to. And special reward for dying in battle is a very strong indicator of a cultures attitude to violence. It reminds one of Vikings and Valhalla.

    The point was it wasn’t punishment for sin but a natural psychological reaction to seeing something you thought was essential to you decay. The solution to that is detachment, and appeasing God by living righteously won’t help, because God isn’t punishing you.

    The equivalence you were trying to draw is false. Dying in battle is not rewarded with any special access to heaven for Jews, and in any case, suffering in the grave isn’t a punishment anyways so the solution isn’t to commit some specially meritorious act.

    So just you missed the bat on this one.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  251. Talha says:
    @FB

    this thread has long since degenerated into our two Muslim Meatheads tossing ‘was salaams’ back and forth…

    Why do so many people take the time to whine about this? I mean, Mr. Unz has provided an easy way to completely ignore certain commentators that you find useless. It makes scrolling much faster. Why go through the extra trouble of reading stuff that just pisses you off?

    I even have Ray on my ignore list, and I’m only reading the stuff he posts to me. It’s great!

    I think we have reached a tipping point, and things are going to get much different from here on in…

    Yes, I think so too. If the Muslim community in Europe doesn’t get better about controlling and rooting out its extremists, things are not going to be pretty.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @AnonStarter
    , @FB
  252. @Talha

    It’s the same old cherry-picking story, akhi.

    One could cite Matthew 10: 34 and Luke 22: 36 to demonstrate that Christians are, in fact, commanded to engage in holy war. Of course, we’d get a lot of protests that those verses “need to be understood in their proper context” or that we’re not considering the comprehensive message of the Gospel in relation to those passages.

    I can certainly appreciate this, and I don’t mind extending the courtesy of exegesis to them. After all, it’s their religion, not mine.

    I suppose it would be too imposing upon others to extend that courtesy to us, however.

    Oh, well.

  253. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    If you’ve got the right to sit here tossing endless reams of frivolous nonsense, then certainly other commenters of a more serious bent have the right to call attention to this thread drift…

    That’s not being ‘pissed off’…

    Everybody here is aware of the ‘block commenter’ feature and it’s hardly the place of a cheeky Paki [is there any other kind?] to direct me to the ’emergency exit’, like pointing to the restroom…

    Learn some manners, GOOF [Now I’m pissed off]…

    • Replies: @Talha
  254. Talha says:

    I suppose it would be too imposing upon others to extend that courtesy to us, however. Oh, well.

    We have rules that we are supposed to adhere to and should uphold those no matter the situation:
    “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to justice, and let not the hatred of others cause you to depart from justice. Be just! That closer to piety, and fear Allah! For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.” (5:8)

    So we have to do our best to hold ourselves to account in these matters (which is why it is so upsetting when these idiot extremists do these kinds of vile acts – they should know better), because we have been put on notice that we will be asked about them.

    As far as those individuals who clearly consider you an enemy; assume no principles and expect no quarter from them…and you will never be disappointed.

    Wa salaam.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  255. Talha says:
    @FB

    endless reams of frivolous nonsense

    This thread is about the subject of things concerning Islam, violent interpretations of Islam, limitations of violence in civilian situations in Islam, Muslims in Europe, radicalization and its factors, etc. This is not a thread about Trump vs Biden.

    Learn some manners, GOOF

    Ohhh…I’m sorry, did this Muslim Meathead say something make you upset…? Can dish it out, eh?

  256. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    All the contradictory ravings about Paul ‘introducing’ this or that (depending on the ‘judaic’ or ‘pagan’ orientation of the anti-Christian brigades – undercover agent of Judaism to bring down the Roman Empire, or undercover agent of the Romans to sabotage the ‘freedom fighters’ against the Romans) stem from the false premise shared by Jews and Muslims alike, that the Christian Scriptures are forgeries cobbled from oral vague reminiscences of misunderstood events or downright invented, that failed to produce a consistent narrative and therefore none of the stories related could possibly be true (the Resurrection in the first place -denied by Jews and Muslims alike, so rejecting the divinity of Jesus), therefore the conversion of Paul and his Apostolic mission is a fake also.

    Had people took the pains to read the very writings of Paul, instead of the Bart Ehrmans and the ‘alaihis-salaam’, and the ‘twinkling, twinkling little (yellow) stars’, they would have realized that neither suppositions are true, that Christianity is not about social control, or communistic social revolution promising the messianic consumerist paradise, the ‘Kingdom of God on Earth’. Nor the ridiculous fantasy that the Scriptures announced Ahmed/Mahomed/Periklytos!

    [MORE]

    “But the Lord said unto him [Ananias], Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake” (Acts 9:15-16).
    “Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)… But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen” (Gal.1).
    “And last of all he [the risen Christ] was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 1:8-20). need to

    Why the Jews/Muslims need to believe that the Scriptures are falsified? They cannot suffer to hear the stark condemnation of the Christ: “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven”.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  257. Metropole says:

    Islamophobia is a huge industry with hundreds of millions of dollars in funding.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/6/24/report-islamophobia-is-a-multimillion-dollar-industry

    With decades of effort and much money spent it is not surprising that there are politicians in the West who can score easy votes by going after Muslims. Trump did it during the last elections. Many politicians in Europe do it. Macron is the latest example.

  258. karel says:
    @Micron

    No one forced the French to colonize Africa and Asia. Now they can reap and enjoy the fruits of their idiotic expansionist policy and permanent plunder of African and Asian nations.

    • Replies: @Talha
  259. @AaronB

    Its a question of degree. Jews simply don’t glorify dying in battle or fighting the way Islam does.

    No, of course not. Jews are much more restrained, particularly where civilian casualties are concerned:

    Bombing of Gaza children gives me “orgasm”: Israelis celebrate slaughter on Facebook

    Many Israeli Facebook users have posted violent and disturbing content on their personal accounts. Talya Shilok Edry, who has more than one thousand followers, posted the following “status”: “What an orgasm to see the Israeli Defense Forces bomb buildings in Gaza with children and families at the same time. Boom boom.”

    Video shows Israeli sniper shooting Palestinian as soldiers celebrate

    With international criticism of Israel’s response to the Gaza protests growing, video emerged on Monday appearing to show an Israel Defence Forces (IDF) sniper shooting a Palestinian man standing near the border fence.

    After the Palestinian man falls to the ground, soldiers are heard cheering in the background. One yells, “What a legendary film!”

    Wadi Hummus: Another Israeli celebration of ethnic cleansing

    An Israeli border policeman standing next to him pats him on the back, smiling and laughing, before the two turn around and pose for a picture in front of the smoke and rubble. The masked soldier turns to the border policeman and says “kol hakavod”, literally meaning all the respect in Hebrew but in this case translating to “good job”. In the background, you can hear the jeers and adulation from other soldiers.

    [MORE]

    ‘Burn them, shoot them, kill them’: Israelis cheer in Jerusalem as Palestinians shot in Gaza

    Meanwhile, just outside the new embassy, Palestinian demonstrators in Jerusalem were brutally repressed by Israeli forces.

    MEE witnessed dozens of unarmed Palestinians beaten and arrested by Israeli security forces outside the embassy, eliciting cheers from Israeli demonstrators who came out to support the embassy’s opening.

    “Burn them”, “shoot them”, “kill them”, the Israelis chanted.

    Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

    Last Wednesday night, as he stood on a hilltop outside the Israeli town of Sderot and watched the bombardment of Gaza on the plain below, a Danish newspaper reporter snapped an iPhone photo of about a dozen locals who cheered on their military from plastic chairs while eating popcorn. …

    As his image reverberated around the social network, where it was shared more than 10,000 times, the reporter was surprised by the response. It was, he said in a telephone interview from Israel, “nothing new.” Similar scenes, of Israeli spectators gathered on the high ground above Gaza to view the destruction below, were documented in a Times of London article and a video report from Denmark’s TV2 during Operation Cast Lead in 2009. …

    When the bombs find their targets, Mr. Krak reported, “cheers break out on the hill, followed by solid applause.”

    Now what might all of this indicate about the Jewish attitude toward violence?

    Of course, now you’ll labor to rationalize all of it, telling us how it’s just an unavoidable reaction to innate Arab violence, or how there are no true Scotsmen among these Jews, yada, yada, and a whole lotta yada.

    Look, Aaron … As I said before, I’m not denying you your personal perspective of Judaism. Were it as ideal as you claim it is, I can see how the world might just be a better place to live.

    But that’s not the reality on the ground. Clearly, other Jews don’t share your perspective. They’re quite content to celebrate and revel in the destruction of their perceived enemies and it’s a bit difficult to imagine that any of this festivity is anathema to their religion — unless, of course, it becomes bad PR for Jews, like celebrating the murder of 18-month-old Ali Sa’ad Dawabsheh.

    Incidentally, little Ali’s killer has received both significant financial and religious support for his defense:

    An online fundraiser set up by the Honenu legal defense group, which typically represents alleged Jewish extremists, had raised NIS 539,889 ($157,874) from over 1,700 donors as of Tuesday afternoon.

    Among those to back the fundraiser was Yair Netanyahu, son of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who retweeted a link to the fundraiser on Monday. …

    Support for Ben-Uliel also came from around two dozen rabbis who signed an open letter Monday calling for his acquittal.

    So just you missed the bat on this one.

    Nah.

    You just missed the crack of the bat as your pitch went sailing over the outfield bleachers, through your windshield, and into the driver’s seat.

    Enjoy clean-up.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  260. Talha says:
    @karel

    Now they can reap and enjoy the fruits of their idiotic expansionist policy and permanent plunder of African and Asian nations.

    C’mon, cut the guys some slack, they haven’t really had an expansionist policy for a while now. OK, fine, so they kind of ride shotgun on some of the American overseas adventures, but they scaled back their colonial footprint quite a bit since their heyday.

    Look, they even recently returned a bunch of their trophy skulls:
    “Algeria on Friday received the skulls of 24 resistance fighters decapitated during colonial France’s conquest of the North African country that had been lying in storage in a Paris museum.
    The return of the remains, viewed as war trophies by French colonial officers, comes amid a worldwide reexamination of the legacy of colonialism since the May 25 killing of 46-year-old African American George Floyd by a white police officer in the United States.”
    https://www.france24.com/en/20200703-france-returns-skulls-of-algerians-who-fought-colonisation

    That should count for something, right?

    They seem like they know they screwed up and just want to be left alone now. Best thing to do is just leave them be and just keep their products off the shelves in Africa and Asia if you don’t like what they are doing.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @karel
  261. @AaronB

    I am just saying that the question about the holocaust is practical while the question about CH caricatures are about hurting Muslims feelings.

    As someone already said – A distinction without a difference. Which do you think is worse? Stifling free speech regarding the holocaust to give Israel moral cover for their atrocities or stifling free speech to spare Muslims who get easily butt hurt? I honestly don’t like either.

    Ok, but I’m trying to explain to you that suppressing holocaust denial isn’t because its sacred to Jews.

    Perhaps not religiously sacred, but sacred nonetheless.

    Plus I’ve said this before, stop pretending that the holocaust industry is a liberal pet project aimed at stifling nationalism while jews have just been swept away in that current. Jews are very much at the forefront of persecuting people that question the holocaust. They do so aggressively and without mercy and this has been extensively documented.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
    , @AaronB
  262. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    According to the same worldwide gallup poll I cited earlier in the thread, the populations of the US, Israel and Haiti (for some odd reason, but it makes sense a further on) are the top three in their view that targeting and killing civilians by state military is fair game:

    And there is a massive change in attitude among both populations when considering themselves being on the receiving end by non-state actors (except for Haiti – they get credit for being consistent):

    “Measuring Public Attitudes About Targeting Civilians”
    https://news.gallup.com/poll/157067/views-violence.aspx

    So for instance, you will find plenty of people willing to justify a first-strike nuclear posture (because that’s what they are able to do to others) and justify something like Hiroshima but are horrified at the thought that some random group might detonate a nuclear device in downtown Manhatten or Haifa (because that would be something someone would do to them).

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  263. @I'm Tyrone

    Perhaps not religiously sacred, but sacred nonetheless

    .

    As I also said before, different groups find different things sacred. For Jews, victim mongering is a much more significant facet of their identity than is the Torah, which is secondary. This explains how Theodor Herzl and his band of merry ethnic cleansers were mostly atheists.

    • Replies: @Talha
  264. @Talha

    our two Muslim Meatheads

    Hmm.

    The “B” in “FB” wouldn’t happen to stand for “Bunker” now, would it?

    was-salaam.

  265. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    Firstly, none of this shows an equal glorification of violence or fighting to what is found in Islam. Rightly or wrongly, all these Israelis you quoted are convinced they are in a war of self defense against a ruthless enemy that wants to destroy them, has rejected multiple generous offers of concessions and peace, and regularly kills women and children. Remember, we are not assessing the rightness of this belief, only what it tells us about their attitude to fighting. That some of them lose their heads in this context does not tell what official Jewish values are about fighting. Finally and perhaps most pertinently, none of them are actually glorifying fighting or soldiering, they are only very enthusiastic in fighting back very hard against their enemies, and in some cases getting revenge on them.

    Some of these cases are ambiguous. A soldier congratulating his fellow soldier on a hit? The context doesn’t tell us what the man thet hit was- had they identified him as the ringleader in assaults on the border fence?

    Second, you haven’t shown this represents the majority or reflects official Jewish values. I’m talking about mainstream Muslim attitudes accepted by everybody and that reflect the official culture and you’re bringing to me a sample of random examples from high stress situations that had to be dug up without any indication they reflect official Jewish values.

    And BTW, why do you think you always have to dig up things about Jews, while I only have to go to official Muslim sources to make my point?

    The fact is, in Islam a man who dies in an offensive war to gain territory for Islam has a special status and is awarded early access to Heaven. The only culture I know of that has a comparable attitude are the Vikings.

    • Agree: Seraphim
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  266. @Talha

    Ya akhi, JazakumULLAHu Khayran!

    Loved the “Wiki’l Islam” transliteration, by the way.

    Brilliant, alhamdulillah.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Talha
  267. Talha says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    As I also said before, different groups find different things sacred.

    This is a great read on the subject:
    ”The dissonance between needing to believe and being privately unable to do so creates all sorts of private theological creativity, but also many private tensions. Religious communities are only sustainable because, of the three great balms that organized religion provides its members—community, intellectual energy, and spiritual life—the first two most often overawe the third. How have most American Jews adapted to their belief-deficit? Jacob Neusner summed it up a long time ago: The State of Israel became the new god and the Holocaust the new liturgy. This shift to a politicized form of Judaism, Rabbi Neusner warned, would not be transmissible across generations.”
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/282724/the-collapse
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jacob-Neusner

    There are actually tons of warnings in that story for Muslims. Especially wen you start to see things like this:

    Peace.

  268. AaronB says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    I’m sorry, but logically, hurting someone’s feelings and doing something that will have far reaching negative docial effects is not a distinction without meaning. One is about emotions and and one is about physical consequences.

    If you can’t see the difference, I dont know what to say.

    Now, you can make an argument that the holocaust gives Israel moral cover and thus stifling questioning it has negative social consequences. That’s fine. That’s just not the liberal take on it. Even if they agreed, the nationalism aspect and the minimizing bigotry aspect and the spreading hate against a frequently persecuted group takes precedence. Those are their values.

    I am not denying Jews also are a big part of stifling speech ln the holocaust. But they are doing so for practical reasons and not because its sacred to them or hurts their feelings.

    When a group tries to get you to respect their sacred cows with threats, thats an important overreach in my book. If a group tries to stop you from doing things they think will adversely affect them, that’s more understandable, though I might disagree.

  269. karel says:
    @Joe Levantine

    There is no evidence that John Dee ever met Jehuda Löw ben Becalel. John Dee, when vegetating pennyless in Poland, was invited to Prague by Tadeáš Hájek z Hájku who was the personal doctor of Kaiser Rudolf II. On Hájek’s recommendation, Rudolf II. met Dee, but apparently only once, before the latter fell out of favour and moved to Southern Bohemia to fool together with Kelley Vilém z Rožmberka who was a believer in alchemy and occult . There is a just one documented meeting between Rudolf II and Jehuda Löw ben Becalel in 1592. The topic of their conversation was supposedly Kabala. When Dee returned to England at the age of 62 he was probably too old to breed much. Rudolf II. had six ilegitimate children in Prague and nothing much is known about the son of Jehuda Löw, who supposedly served as a rabi in Kolín.

  270. karel says:
    @Talha

    I would also like to return a trophy to Algeria like a severed head or a dried scrotum but I have not got any in my collection. Perhaps I should look around the various auction houses selling curiosities and buy these desirable items.

    I agree that apart from Mali, there is not much expansion nowadays. But the plunder continues. Do you know that
    France guarantees the Euro-backed CFA Franc for the 14 members of the CFA Franc Zone and in return, the country holds 50 percent of their foreign reserves. This arrangement is why critics say that the 14 countries are paying a colonial tax.

    • Replies: @Talha
  271. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Wa iyyakum. It is probably one of the most comprehensive and detailed worldwide surveys on the subject and is useful because many other surveys don’t make the key distinction by using the word “targeting” as opposed to unintentional killing of civilians (another term being “collateral damage”) in intentional attacks on military targets which is recognized by everything from current international law and the Shariah as long as it is not grossly disproportional.

    Loved the “Wiki’l Islam” transliteration, by the way.

    I thought you’d appreciate that.

    Wa salaam.

  272. Metropole says:

    What logical contortions.

    When we suppress free speech pertaining to holocaust denial and anti-Semitism it is because of good and logical reasons. But when we promote Islamophobia it is because they deserve to be hated.

    When our soldiers kill men, woman and children in their own lands then it is for self-defense. But when some random Muslim kills someone it is because all Muslims love killing.

    We’re trying to prevent a repeat of the holocausts in which 6 million Jews died. So we get our slave nations to kill 20-30 million Muslims. After all, they all deserve to die.

  273. @Talha

    I must be a reactionary left behind by world progress as “nonbinary” doesn’t exist in my dictionary. Oh, Collins online is up to date:

    relating to a gender or sexual identity that does not belong to the binary categories of male or female, heterosexual or homosexual

    So not even a queer or lesbian. So some kind of transexual but not clear which type, although I would have thought there is one type only; OK, maybe two types: pre-op and post-op.

    Maybe once the state Houses, Senate and Congress are full of these types they’ll start telling us which specific gender of the trending to 100 categories each rep belongs to. Perhaps they could tattoo it on their foreheads to let us know. Can’t wait for the day.

    • Replies: @Talha
  274. @Ray Caruso

    Both Christianity and Islam condemn suicide as a sin that takes you to hell yet martyrdom takes you to heaven. But it’s easy enough to choose suicide by martyrdom. I guess God only can tell the difference.

  275. @FB

    It’s really that simple…I think we have reached a tipping point, and things are going to get much different from here on in…

    There were far more devastating terrorist attacks by Muslims before and nothing much has changed. I don’t care what politicians say – I’ll believe it when I see it.

    • Replies: @FB
  276. @AaronB

    [Disclaimer: Long response. Tweet-length attention span readers, kindly ignore.]

    [MORE]

    Firstly, none of this shows an equal glorification of violence or fighting to what is found in Islam.

    Well, from what I’ve witnessed, you define Islam by selecting some source material, omitting what is inconvenient to your polemic, then proceeding apace. (See below for evidence of this.)

    Alternatively, you attempt to define Islam by the conduct of some Muslims.

    So if Islam may be defined by the conduct of some Muslims, then why can’t Judaism be defined by the conduct of some Jews?

    all these Israelis you quoted are convinced

    Ah, so it’s a matter of perception. Thank you for so saying.

    Alright, Aaron. Since we’re dealing with perceptions as if they constitute substantive proof of what is perceived, then it appears there’s nothing much to discuss about any real threat. These Israelis might as well “be convinced” that the moon is made of cheese and inhabited by giant spiders.

    That some of them lose their heads

    There it is, just as I foretold:

    Of course, now you’ll labor to rationalize all of it, telling us how it’s just an unavoidable reaction to innate Arab violence, or how there are no true Scotsmen among these Jews, yada, yada, and a whole lotta yada.

    ALLAHU Akbar.

    And here comes the Scotsman fallacy:

    none of them are actually glorifying fighting or soldiering, they are only very enthusiastic in fighting back very hard against their enemies, and in some cases getting revenge on them

    Uh huh. No Talmudic justification there, no siree:

    https://ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/shahak.html

    The context doesn’t tell us what the man thet hit was- had they identified him as the ringleader in assaults on the border fence?

    * sigh *

    Had you bothered not to jerk your knee so quickly before you took to the keyboard:

    The video appears to contradict the IDF’s claim that it first fires warning shots into the air, then aims at protestors’ legs. When the Palestinian man is shot, he is standing still in the field, apparently posing no threat to Israeli soldiers. …

    “Incidents such as the one in the video published today occurred hundreds of times over the past few weeks in the Gaza strip, causing death and injuries – with the full support of policymakers and top military officials,” said Amit Gilutz, a spokesman for B’Tselem, a human rights organization that is regularly critical of Israel’s military occupation of the West Bank and its policies towards Palestinians.

    “The professed shock they now express, as well as their promise to investigate, are just lip service: as before, their ‘thorough investigation’ will once again whitewash the truth,” he said.

    So we’ve established that whatever the video revealed, policymakers and top military officials expressed shock. (Of course they will. They have to or Israel’s image is toast.) This means the video evidence decisively incriminated the soldier. Further evidence of this:

    Israel’s Minister of Education and leader of the right-wing Jewish Home party, Naftali Bennett, defended the soldier’s actions.

    “Seriously do you know what they were doing three minutes before, two minutes before?” he said on Israel Army Radio Tuesday morning.

    “Maybe they lost a friend a day before. Do you know what the context of the situation was?”

    Note that Bennett doesn’t try to spin some lie that the targeted individual was an actual threat. Instead, he tried to apologize on behalf of the sniper.

    More honest, but still pathetic.

    So, no … not one of the cases I cite are, as you accuse, “ambiguous.” Anyone is welcome to check them and find the common face of Israel that receives little, if any, coverage in American media.

    Second, you haven’t shown this represents the majority or reflects official Jewish values.

    https://ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/shahak.html

    I’m talking about mainstream Muslim attitudes accepted by everybody and that reflect the official culture

    You write, “And special reward for dying in battle is a very strong indicator of a cultures attitude to violence.”

    No, this is a non-sequitur.

    In cases where it is unavoidable, which happened regularly in the early years of Islam, God tells us:

    War is ordained for you, though it is hateful to you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. God knows, you know not. [2: 216]

    Here God defines the faithful clearly as those who hate war. So, no, we don’t “glorify violence.” Rather, we find incentive in the Afterlife reward for undertaking a fight we must undertake. Here the word used is not jihad, but qital, an expressly martial fight. Jihad actually means “struggle,” which encompasses every manner of struggle, from waking up on time for the dawn prayer to remaining patient with a typically insufferable Zionist. 🙂

    you’re bringing to me a sample of random examples from high stress situations

    Lol

    “A sample of random examples”? If those don’t convince you, we can find many more “random examples” of egregious Jewish conduct at https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/. Should I dig up the Chris Hedges’ Harpers piece again? The one where he witnesses Israeli soldiers deliberately taunting Palestinian children so that they’ll throw stones, giving the soldiers an excuse to shoot them?

    “High stress”? Is that what you call having an orgasm over the death of Palestinian women and children?

    Just to remind you, Aaron: Half the population of Jewish Israelis don’t want Arabs living among them. That’s an incredibly high number of Jews harboring contempt for Arab citizens, so why pretend that any of this animus is exceptional to Israeli culture?

    And BTW, why do you think you always have to dig up things about Jews, while I only have to go to official Muslim sources to make my point?

    I don’t think I “always have to dig up things about Jews.”

    I’ve cited to official Jewish source material as well, on numerous occasions. And as far as I can tell, nobody — least of all me — has stopped you from looking outside official Muslim sources.

    The fact is, in Islam a man who dies in an offensive war to gain territory for Islam has a special status and is awarded early access to Heaven.

    Ah, there’s the linchpin phrase: “in an offensive war to gain territory for Islam.”

    Again from The Qur’an:

    Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Surely, God does not love aggressors. [2: 190]

    So where is this imperative to wage offensive war? Perhaps you’re speaking of 9: 29?

    Fight against such of those who have been given The Book as deny God and the Last Day, and forbid not that which God has forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being humbled.

    Here’s the historical context of this verse:

    The verse 9:29 is a command to fight the Byzantine Romans and other hostile powers who were planning an invasion against the Muslims in Arabia. In context, it is a distinct response to aggression, in particular the assassination of one of the Prophet’s ambassadors.

    9: 29 isn’t about “offensive war to gain territory for Islam.” It’s about fighting those who have already declared war upon you. As such, it dovetails well with “begin not hostilities.”

    And in the early generations, both the Byzantines and Persians sought to vanquish the Muslims in their nascent emergence. As we know, it was a zero-sum conflict protracted across a lengthy span of time, and in spite of overwhelming Muslim victory, the Muslims did something that no other suzerain before them had: they protected the religious liberty and security of their subject minorities, demanding — unlike Rome — no oath that would violate it. So impressive was this to the Christian Kingdoms of Northern Spain that they reciprocated in kind, however imperfectly.

    But, as a result, Europe would never be the same again.

    I don’t think we’ll find any analogous accomplishment from the Vikings.

    • Replies: @Talha
  277. @Seraphim

    the false premise shared by Jews and Muslims alike, that the Christian Scriptures are forgeries cobbled from oral vague reminiscences of misunderstood events or downright invented, that failed to produce a consistent narrative and therefore none of the stories related could possibly be true (the Resurrection in the first place -denied by Jews and Muslims alike, so rejecting the divinity of Jesus), therefore the conversion of Paul and his Apostolic mission is a fake also

    Seraphim, I greatly respect your commitment to your faith. It isn’t my intent to offend you in the least, but as you well know, the “offense” — if one wishes to call it that — could easily be construed as mutual. This is an ever-present possibility when we’re dealing with sharply contrasting views of religious history.

    It’s my conviction, however, that we needn’t convince each other of a “one size fits all” religion for the entirety of humankind. Islam certainly never called for it, otherwise Muslims would have unequivocally prohibited and prevented non-Muslims from non-Islamic religious exercise throughout dar al-Islam, which, barring some rare exceptions, simply didn’t happen.

    Now I’m fairly confident that you find nothing in your faith that prevents you from safeguarding the religious liberty of non-Christians under your custodianship. (You may correct me if I’m in error here.) Since this is so, I suggest we simply agree to avoid vain contention, as we’re both willing to accord each other the invaluable blessing of free exercise and argument over our core convictions isn’t likely to result in a sea change of perspective from either of us.

    We’re not in the Middle Ages anymore. Here and now, I propose we act like it.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  278. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Perhaps they could tattoo it on their foreheads to let us know.

    And in Oklahoma, no less. I would have expected this in Massachusetts or something.

    Yeah – this stuff is confusing as hell. Especially for a religion like Islam where gender-specific rules and behavior are the norm. As long as these kinds of people are kept out of positions of power in the bick-and-mortar mosques, we’ll be OK.

    These things used to be considered mental illnesses to be treated in the past…now, I guess these are things to be celebrated.

    Peace.

  279. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Here God defines the faithful clearly as those who hate war. So, no, we don’t “glorify violence.” Rather, we find incentive in the Afterlife reward for undertaking a fight we must undertake.

    This is entire aspect is summarized fairly well in this hadith reported in both the collections of Bukhari and Muslim (difficult to get more authentic than that):
    “On the days the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) faced the enemy in battle, he waited until the sun had set, then he stood in front of the people. The Prophet (pbuh) said, ‘O people, do not desire to meet the enemy, but rather ask Allah for safety. If you meet your enemy in battle, be patient and know that Paradise is under the shade of swords.’”

    Peace.

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
  280. Talha says:
    @karel

    I agree that apart from Mali, there is not much expansion nowadays.

    Yeah, nothing compared to the days of sugar plantations and colonies as far abroad as Indochina.

    Do you know that

    Did not, thanks!

    Peace.

  281. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    If the Muslim community in Europe doesn’t get better about controlling and rooting out its extremists, things are not going to be pretty.

    Yeah, fat chance…news from Austria this morning:

    Austria closes mosque & religious association for ‘radicalization’ of presumed Vienna attacker

    Austrian authorities have decided to close two religious facilities that contributed to the extremist views of the hardline Islamist accused of the Vienna attacks. The shootings left four people dead and more than 20 injured.

    How many times have we seen this?

    When exactly are Muslims going to start ‘cracking down’ on extremists in their midst?

    When in fact, mosques in our midst are NOTHING BUT centers of Islamist agitation?

    Your nonsense here is really quite brazen…nothing you say can be trusted or believed…you have come out many times here in favor of the headchoppers in Syria, for instance…I’ve caught you myself on numerous occasions spreading bald lies…

    Hopefully ordinary people are waking up to the Muslim propensity for deceit…

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Talha
  282. Metropole says:

    Because the Germans holocausted us we’ll holocaust the Muslims to make sure it never happens again.

  283. FB says: • Website
    @Commentator Mike

    There were far more devastating terrorist attacks by Muslims before and nothing much has changed. I don’t care what politicians say – I’ll believe it when I see it.

    Yeah, it’s hard to deny that…but this can’t go on forever…

    Also in the news feed today:

    Former Kosovo President Hashim Thaci Taken Into Custody In The Hague

    The accusations against the former president of the Republic of Kosovo, Hashim Thaci consist of 10 counts, including “murder” and “torture,” according to the Kosovo Specialist Chambers and Specialist Prosecutor’s Office.

    More are being rounded up in Pristina [the Albright gang]…meanwhile in Russia:

    Russia’s Security Service Arrested Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islami Terrorist Cell In Kazan

    And behind each and every one of these incidents stands…the local MOSQUE [full of pious, lying ‘Talhas’]…

  284. Talha says:
    @FB

    When exactly are Muslims going to start ‘cracking down’ on extremists in their midst?

    We have been, but most of these guys don’t get radicalized in the mosques. This was shown by the research of Olivier Roy (who is an expert on radicalization trends and studied one hundred profiles of extremists):
    “Another common feature is the radicals’ distance from their immediate circle. They did not live in a particularly religious environment. Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam. None of them belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood, none of them had worked with a Muslim charity, none of them had taken part in proselytising activities, none of them were members of a Palestinian solidarity movement, and lastly, none of them, to my knowledge, took part in the rioting in French suburbs in 2005. They were not first radicalised by a religious movement before turning to terrorism.

    To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice….As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    When in fact, mosques in our midst are NOTHING BUT centers of Islamist agitation?

    If this is the fact, then go ahead and close them all down.

    nothing you say can be trusted or believed

    Muzzie Taqiyyah.

    you have come out many times here in favor of the headchoppers in Syria

    Show me an explicit statement of mine where I supported either al-Qaeda or Daesh in Syria. Not your interpretation of my words, but my own words. I’m waiting. If this was done “many times”, it should be relatively straightforward to prove out.

    I’ve caught you myself on numerous occasions spreading bald lies…

    Prove it. You just dismiss the evidence I give because you don’t like it and say it’s all made up. That’s your prerogative and it must be convenient to live a conceptual world like that, but that’s on you, that’s not me lying.

    Hopefully ordinary people are waking up to the Muslim propensity for deceit.

    Muzzie Taqiyyah strikes again!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @FB
  285. Talha says:
    @FB

    You guys can keep this up, I’ll keep on using whatever you post to link to more academic voices, more stats, more articles, etc. in response to your feeeelzzz responses. Like this research out of the US
    Both findings indicate that the majority of the foreign fighters had limited familiarity with the tenets of the Islamic faith. This is consistent with the findings from the CTC’s earlier report, which showed that very small numbers of foreign fighters reported having any religious education and that approximately 70% of fighters reported having a basic knowledge of Shari`a law…. Moreover, our findings also correspond with primary sources indicating that jihadi groups in general prefer to recruit individuals who have limited religious education since they are less capable of critically scrutinizing the jihadi narrative and ideology, in addition to being less familiar with contrasting Islamic schools of thought.”
    https://www.ctc.usma.edu/from-cradle-to-grave-the-lifecycle-of-foreign-fighters-in-iraq-and-syria/

    Like the janitor guy who taught the first Charlie Hebdo attackers:
    “By the time Benyettou was 22, Filiu writes, he was spending his time perusing jihadi websites and dressing in garb that primarily only Muslim preachers wore. When the mosque he belonged to expelled him, he joined another; it was there, The Washington Post says, that he worked as a janitor and met Cherif Kouachi, now 32, whom French authorities suspect participated in the Charlie Hebdo attack along with his brother, Said, 34. ‘Benyettou operated in the margins of the religious community, defying the older imams and scorning their speeches,’ Filiu writes. Benyettou, whom followers called Abu Abdallah, Filiu adds, “built up his own brand of Salafi-esque preaching, far from any established guidance, with a strong emphasis on jihad.”
    http://www.newsweek.com/meet-farid-benyettou-man-who-trained-paris-attack-suspect-cherif-kouachi-298028

    I don’t post for the benefit of people like you that call me a liar out of the gate; complete waste of my time.

    You just provide me a platform to get out material for those who are genuinely interested or open to the information or have an academic bent, while you keep screaming “Muzzie Taqiyyah” in the background.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @FB
  286. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    …most of these guys don’t get radicalized in the mosques. This was shown by the research of Olivier Roy…

    That’s the opinion of one guy, and his thesis, as outlined in that ridiculous Guardian piece you linked to, has been vigorously rebutted, by ACTUAL experts…

    According to Kepel, jihadi terrorism is caused by fundamentalist Islam, an ideology which clashes with the values of Western democracies.[32]

    In 2017, Kepel criticized Olivier Roy’s assertion that jihadi terrorism is only loosely connected to Islamic fundamentalism as Roy neither speaks Arabic nor looks into the Salafi doctrine behind the jihadism.

    Roy’s defense to that rebuttal was strikingly weak:

    I have been accused of disregarding the link between terrorist violence and the religious radicalisation of Islam through Salafism, the ultra-conservative interpretation of the faith.

    I am fully aware of all of these dimensions; I am simply saying that they are inadequate to account for the phenomena we study, because no causal link can be found on the basis of the empirical data we have available.

    So he admits himself that the ‘conservative’ religious dimension is real, only that it supposedly cannot be ‘proved’ by the supposed ‘data’…

    In any case, it is beyond ludicrous to claim, as you do, that the Muslim religious community is trying to do something positive…that’s just tooth fairy-level nonsense…

    Last month, again in Russia:

    Security Forces Eliminated 2 Terrorist Cells In Russia’s North Caucasus Region

    During the searches, FSB officers seized, in particular, three grenades, three Makarov pistols, 190 copies of pseudo-religious literature and five handwritten texts of lectures by extremist preachers.

    This is hardly anything new…these so-called ‘preachers’ are beloved by Muslims worldwide…they’re all over youtube and social media…Obama used to drone these clowns…

    And sure as rain, each and every single mosque in the west is mostly an amen corner for these radicals [although they try to keep it on the QT]…

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AnonStarter
  287. Metropole says:

    Law enforcement is the job of governments, not the community. I’m sure no Muslim will object if extremists are prosecuted.

    When I was in Briton I found that they had a visa category for religious leaders. Some/many of the mosques had imported imams from Egypt, Pakistan etc., many of whom could barely speak English and had little or no knowledge of the country they were living in. Their sermons may have been correct from an religious point of view, but were devoid of local context. None that I experienced preached anything remotely radical.

    It was generally known in the community that the extremist preachers worked for intelligence agencies. Their job was to attract recruits for various overseas operations. They said outrageous things and were darlings of the Islamophobic press.

    So when we talk of radical mosques we first need to figure out who exactly they’re working for. Radical Islam is a tool that has been used against both Muslim and non-Muslim countries. But 99% of their victims have been Muslims.

  288. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    Your fig leaf cover of ‘religion of peace’ and ‘It’s not Islam’ is wearing mighty thin…

    Along with the silly notion that these violent fanatics in our midst somehow aren’t encouraged by local religious activity…

    An informative article here in the genuinely pro-Palestinain Haaretz:

    ‘The British state has made the mistake of subcontracting the management of its Muslim population to the local community brokers, an attitude rooted in the Raj system in India,’ Kepel told Haaretz.

    ‘In places like Manchester and Birmingham they relied on Salafi community leaders while cutting back the highly fragmented police force.’

    Just exactly what you are calling for, with your laughable noises about entrusting the Muslim community to bring the violence to heel…

    Kepel claims that in London, or Londonistan as he calls it, ‘they gave shelter to radical Islamist leaders from around the world as a sort of insurance policy against jihadi terrorism. But you know, when you go for dinner with the devil…’

    London Gave Shelter to Radical Islam and Now It’s Paying the Price, French Terrorism Expert Says

    • Replies: @Talha
  289. Talha says:
    @FB

    That’s the opinion of one guy

    Nope. Olivier Roy is a bonafide expert in his field as is Prof. David Cook who I cited earlier. You consider his rebuttal weak because it doesn’t fit what you like, but the fact is that he studied 100 profiles of extremists in depth and did not find the casual connections based on the empirical data that he studied that you are insinuating. I also cited reports from the Counter Terrorism research in the US military as well as the findings of MI5.

    supposedly cannot be ‘proved’ by the supposed ‘data’

    LOL! Dismissive quotes.

    Last month, again in Russia:

    And none of the info you cite mentions anything about mosques in connection, simply terror cells.

    these so-called ‘preachers’ are beloved by Muslims worldwide

    Your opinion without citation of any numbers.

    they’re all over youtube and social media

    This is where Olivier Roy mentioned people get radicalized in his research – on the internet.

    each and every single mosque in the west is mostly an amen corner for these radicals

    Another opinion posited as fact and in contradiction to the data we have (which I have cited). But that’s OK, if all mosques are centers of radicalization, it should be relatively straight forward to shut them all down. If you are in the US, I highly suggest writing or calling your representative to introduce this as a law:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  290. Talha says:
    @FB

    If you read the article that Olivier Roy wrote, he mentions that Britain is an exception:
    “If indeed there was religious radicalisation, it did not occur in the framework of Salafi mosques, but individually or within the group. The only exceptions are in Britain, which has a network of militant mosques frequented by members of al-Muhajiroun, which gave rise to an even more radical group, Sharia4UK, led by Anjem Choudary.”

    And you yet have to show any evidence for the charge that you casually threw out that I supported Al-Qaeda or Daesh in Syria or anywhere.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @FB
  291. Metropole says:

    I would like to congratulate Americans on Biden’s victory. While you were busy during the last 2-3 decades terminating Muslims China because the world’s biggest economy. Soon you will have a Hindu lady as your president.

    • LOL: FB
  292. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    Come on, do you seriously deny that you have been anti-Assad all along…?

    I never said you voiced support SPECIFICALLY for Al Qaida or Isis, but you have been vocally supportive of the ‘moderate’ rebels, which of course don’t exist and you even have been promoting White Helmets propaganda…

    I also never called anybody a ‘Muzzie’ nor any of the other names you make up…that’s YOU imputing that on me, and only proving my accusation of mendacity…

    • Replies: @Talha
  293. @Talha

    Jacob Neusner summed it up a long time ago: The State of Israel became the new god and the Holocaust the new liturgy.

    This has been going on for a while now as hilariously shown here –

    It’s almost like Jerry disrespected a religious service.

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  294. @Talha

    You consider his rebuttal weak because it doesn’t fit what you like, but the fact is that he studied 100 profiles of extremists in depth and did not find the casual connections based on the empirical data that he studied that you are insinuating. I also cited reports from the Counter Terrorism research in the US military as well as the findings of MI5.

    Actually, Roy’s rebuttal is quite good. He doesn’t deny a causal link between extremist ideology and actual attacks; he’s just saying that the science doesn’t give substance to the kind of irrational fear-mongering we’re seeing on display here.

    Empirically speaking, Muslims have far more reason to fear attacks from non-Muslims, particularly those whose governments are so thoroughly in thrall to Zionist ideology.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Talha
  295. Talha says:
    @FB

    Come on, do you seriously deny that you have been anti-Assad all along…?

    Of course I’m anti-Assad, but that does not mean I approve of Daesh or Al-Qaeda. It’s like saying if you don’t like Hitler, then you must like Stalin or vice versa. It’s a complete logic fail that only works with people who operate in the George Bush paradigm of “If you aren’t with us, you’re against us” or maybe in the eyes of those who say “each and every single mosque” is a center of radicalization.

    I never said you voiced support SPECIFICALLY for Al Qaida or Isis

    Good, at least we agree you have no evidence of me ever supporting al-Qaeda or Daesh. Which really would be crystal clear to anybody who has been paying attention to what I’ve written over the years.

    White Helmets propaganda

    Where did I cite the white helmets? My actual citation please, not what you perceive to fall into white helmet propaganda.

    I also never called anybody a ‘Muzzie’

    Sorry, I should have said “Meathead Taqiyyah” to be more accurate.

    This is getting boring at this point and a real waste of time, so, as I said, if you are a US citizen, go call your representatives to start shutting down the mosques. If you aren’t a US citizen, your opinion has no practical bearing in any manner to me, so advocate whatever you want in whatever country you live in.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @FB
  296. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    This is getting boring at this point and a real waste of time…

    Spoken like a true loser…[getting the snot kicked out of you is always ‘boring’…😂😂😂]

  297. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Actually, Roy’s rebuttal is quite good.

    Agreed.

    The same story shows up in so many places, like even with the Sri Lankan bomber – some young idiot completely ignoring the religious leadership, getting kicked out of the mosque after fighting with the elders repeatedly:
    “The boy surprised the school with his sharp mind. For three years, Zahran practiced memorizing the Koran. Next came his studies in Islamic law. But the more he learned, the more Zahran argued that his teachers were too liberal in their reading of the holy book.
    “He was against our teaching and the way we interpreted the Koran – he wanted his radical Islam,” said Aliyar. “So we kicked him out.”…
    Zahran joined a mosque in 2006, the Dharul Athar, and gained a place on its management committee. But within three years they’d had a falling out.
    “He wanted to speak more independently, without taking advice from elders,” said the mosque’s imam, or spiritual leader, M.T.M. Fawaz.”
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sri-lanka-blasts-mastermind/black-sheep-the-mastermind-of-sri-lankas-easter-sunday-bombs-idUSKCN1S21S8

    You yourself have probably attended hundreds and hundreds of Friday sermons in a mosque in the West; when did the imam tell you to go out and beat up or mug or kill somebody?

    Many of the big mosques broadcast their Friday sermons for the world to see on Youtube live. You don’t even need to send an agent to sit in the congregation in like in the old days.

    Wa salaam.

  298. Talha says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Pretty funny clip; it’s weird, I don’t remember that episode.

    But yeah, there is the tongue-in-cheek way of exploring what Jacob Neusner was mentioning.

    Peace.

  299. @FB

    In any case, it is beyond ludicrous to claim, as you do, that the Muslim religious community is trying to do something positive…that’s just tooth fairy-level nonsense…

    Many years before 9/11, western intelligence agencies have had operatives spread far and wide throughout domestic Muslim communities. Imams often work with them directly, providing information of potential extremist activity as needed.

    Of course, you haven’t a clue because you’re not directly involved in this process.

    The Muslim world is massive. We’re nearly 25% of humankind. Twenty. Five. Percent.

    Take a moment to fathom that size.

    When you compare it to the number of extremist attacks that have occurred in spite of the west’s ongoing aggression in Muslim lands or its continued support of the Zionist terror regime, I’d say Muslims have done rather well in rooting out their yahoos.

    Far better, at least, than westerners have forestalled their own governments’ assault on Muslims.

    • Disagree: FB
    • Replies: @FB
  300. @Talha

    You don’t even need to send an agent to sit in the congregation in like in the old days.

    🙂

    Yeah, but you know they’ve got virtually every mosque and Islamic center covered. Where a center has a school, the board is now hiring non-Muslim teachers in droves. You can count on some operatives being thrown in the mix.

    Truth is, those guys/gals find the burden of teaching much more demanding than their original assignment. In fact, more than a few of them come to love being among Muslims after discovering just how absurd all the propaganda is.

    was-salaam.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  301. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Yeah, but you know they’ve got virtually every mosque and Islamic center covered.

    Of course that should be assumed. All the better to just broadcast any and all lectures and just put them out there, save the tax-payers’ money. I know the mosques I have attended in various places I have lived have nothing to hide. All were open for all five prayers, advertise when any and all lectures or classes will be, anyone in the community is welcome to come and sit in and listen. Here’s the mosque I used to attend way back in the day in SoCal, all their stuff is online for anyone that wants to scrutinize it:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu6Wv5Z104wOB0SpFcaGNow

    Wa salaam.

  302. @Talha

    You yourself have probably attended hundreds and hundreds of Friday sermons in a mosque in the West; when did the imam tell you to go out and beat up or mug or kill somebody?

    Lol

    This is why I usually ask how familiar people here are with actual Muslims. Most of them have never bothered to talk to even one in real life.

    was-salaam.

  303. FB says: • Website
    @AnonStarter

    How do you say ‘horsefeathers’ in Arabic…?

    This just in:

    Poll shows 57% of young Muslims in France believe Sharia law more important than national law

    The study’s most astonishing finding is that the majority of Muslims under the age of 25 (57 percent) believe Islamic law to be more important than French law in France – an increase of 10 percent since 2016. About 38 percent of French Muslims overall felt the same.

    Meanwhile, only 15 percent of the Catholic population believe that their religious laws should come before French law.

    So much for ‘rooting out’ your ‘yahoos’…😂

    [By their fruits ye shall know them]

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @AnonStarter
  304. @FB

    Poll shows 57% of young Muslims in France believe Sharia law more important than national law

    Yes, but this has nothing to do with the degree to which Muslim leaders are working hand-in-hand with western intel to successfully combat extremism.

    In Islam, shari’ah is applicable strictly to Muslims. It’s the Islamic way of life, one which translates as “a path that leads to water,” and among its defining tenets is the imperative “No compulsion in religion.”

    Now, as a Muslim, I find recent opinions about blasphemy law more concerning, since they indicate a shift away from this defining tenet.

    It isn’t as if there’s no cause for concern here, it’s just that your anxieties are usually misplaced and often overblown.

  305. @FB

    One other aspect of this poll result that should be considered is the absurdity of French law outlawing the hijab and burqa, legislation that effectively infringes upon a Muslim woman’s free exercise of religion.

    There is, quite simply, no good reason for such a law in a nation whose founding motto is “liberty, equality, and fraternity.” Not unless the sight of a modestly attired woman is just that insufferable to Frenchmen, which tells us quite a bit about France itself.

    Small wonder that French Muslims don’t think so highly of the inherent hypocrisy in French law.

    • Replies: @FB
  306. FB says: • Website
    @AnonStarter


    Like this…?

    Is this what you want your kids to see at a public pool…?

    Women being subjected to medieval and unnatural dress codes…?

    Sorry pal, but that is just NUTTY, disgusting even…

    Look, this illustrates exactly the problem…you Muslim nutters aren’t simply content to have the SAME freedoms as everyone else…you want to SHOVE your theology in everyone’s face, just like the bloody gays and weirdos…

    [And here’s the Muslim kvetching about this ‘discrimination’]

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  307. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    Islam never called for ‘it’? What is Dawah? Not ‘inviting’ people to embrace the only ‘true religion’? Da‘wah literally means “issuing a summons” or “making an invitation” (you cannot refuse!). Mahomed ‘invited’ the rulers of his time to embrace Islam, actually ‘summoned’ them to ‘submit’ to him:
    “Believe, or else pay tribute. And be obedient unto the Lord and his Prophet, and unto the messengers of his Prophet. Honour them and clothe them with excellent vestments, not with inferior raiment. Specially clothe Zeid with excellent garments. As long as my messengers are pleased, so likewise am I”;
    “Should you reject this invitation, then you will be held responsible for all the evils of the Christians of your people”;
    “If you two accept Islam, you will remain in command of your country; but if you refuse my Call, you’ve got to remember that all your possessions are perishable. My horsemen will appropriate your land, and my Prophethood will assume preponderance over your kingship.”
    “You will be going to Christians and Jews, so the first thing you should invite them to is the assertion of the oneness of Allah, Most High. If they realize that, then inform them that Allah has made five daily prayers obligatory on them. If they pray them, then inform them that Allah has made the payment of charity from their wealth obligatory on their rich to be given to their poor. If they accept that, then take it from them and avoid the best part of people’s property.”
    But what if they don’t accept? “Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax, willingly SUBMITTING, fully HUMBLED”.
    Now this is fully ‘explained’ by (Muslim) commenters:

    “This is the aim of Jihad with the Jews and the Christians and it is not to force them to become Muslims and adopt the Islamic way of life. They should be forced to pay jizyah in order to put an end to their independence and supremacy so that they should not remain rulers and sovereigns in the land. These powers should be wrested from them by the followers of the true faith, who should assume the sovereignty and lead others towards the right way, while they should become their subjects and pay jizyah. Jizyah is paid by those non-Muslims who live as zimmis (proteges) in an Islamic state, in exchange for the security and protection granted to them by it. This is also symbolical of the fact that they themselves agree to live in it as its subjects. This is the significance of “they pay the tribute out of (their) hand,” that is, “with full consent so that they willingly become the subjects of the believers, who perform the duty of the vicegerents of Allah on the earth.” At first this command applied only to the Jews and the Christians. Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself extended it to the Zoroastrians also. After his death, his companions unanimously applied this rule to all the non Muslim nations outside Arabia”.

    Christianity and Islam are not just “sharply contrasting views of religious history”, but mutually exclusive. They cannot co-exist together in the same place, the more when ‘religious liberty’ means for Muslims the obligation to ‘subdue’ and ‘fully humiliate’ the ‘mushrikun’, the ‘associators’, i.e. the believers in the Trinity, i.e. the Christians!
    So, in order to agree “to avoid vain contention” Muslims in Christian lands should stop dawah and jihad. They should sit at the table with Christians and eat pork and drink wine with them if you want to be accepted. Show respect for their hosts (who pay them handsome benefits from the taxpayers money). And stop demanding that free halal food must be served in school canteenes if it happens to have Muslim pupils (like it happened in France). And of course, they should came down off the high horse of their ‘religion of truth (and peace)’.

    • Thanks: FB
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  308. @FB

    FYI, I keep my images blocked as a general rule, but the article to which you’ve linked tells me this is about the “burqini.”

    Frankly, I find nothing substantive in any of your commentary that warrants outlawing the burqini. You sound like a petty woman wrinkling her nose and whispering to her coffee klatsch companions about how “gauche” another woman’s attire is.

    More to the point, even if you find it personally unattractive, subjective fashion sense is not a legitimate criterion for banning attire.

    Modest attire has a very practical civil purpose: to minimize or prevent sexual objectification. If a woman wants to be valued for her mind and character, she doesn’t call attention to her sexuality in the public square, where she is certain to draw the leers and advances of strange men. Islam is family-centered, often using traditional matchmaking under family supervision as a means of matrimony and establishing a family. If not matchmaking, a more modest approach, involving parental and community supervision is necessary. (Think Michael and Apollonia in Godfather I.)

    I realize this appears to be an outmoded way of life to those for whom sexual self-gratification remains the primary objective of their sex life, but there it is. In fact, it can easily be said that once you realize how central the health of the family is to Islam, you understand the importance of the woman’s role and the demands of modesty placed upon both women and men.

    Now, in today’s public square, there are far more immodestly dressed women and men than not. I suppose it’s quite possible to complain about how they’re “shoving themselves in my face” what with their flagrant assault upon my personal tastes, but of course, I don’t do that. Civility and patience require a bit more.

    Militant homosexuals are among them, unfortunately. Then again, it’s the price the west has had to pay for its abandonment of traditional morality. Islamic attire doesn’t threaten that morality at all.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @FB
  309. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    In fact, it can easily be said that once you realize how central the health of the family is to Islam, you understand the importance of the woman’s role and the demands of modesty placed upon both women and men.

    Trust me, some people get it:

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @FB
  310. FB says: • Website
    @AnonStarter

    Look, you’re obviously a NUT…

    That ‘modesty’ that you harp about should be the WOMAN’S CHOICE…not some patronizing dickhead who insists on wrapping his SUBMISSIVE wife with 20 pounds of fucking cloth and then putting her in a swimming pool like some FREAKSHOW [not to mention the hygiene concerns of NORMAL BATHERS sharing that water]…

    You and your NUTBUDDY here have amply demonstrated what freaks you are…

    All those women in your oppressive, medieval Sharia societies long for basic human dignity…

    And in countries where they were freed, such as the brief spell of socialism in Afghanistan in the 1970s, the women were very glad to be rid of you patronizing dickheads and your stupid, misogynistic ‘traditions’…and happily wore normal clothes, attended university [for the first time ever] etc…

    It’s really shameful the way you treat women as objects that you possess like chattel…

    Like I said, and like everybody is realizing…you nuts are simply incompatible with normal human values…enough said…

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  311. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    Trust me, some people get it

    Yeah, we ‘get it’ alright…

    You Muslim fanatics like to speak in flowery tones about your ‘peaceful’ religion…your ‘modesty’ and your ‘honor’…

    Only this cloak of DECEPTION hides the most barbarous and wildly uncivilized credo that humans have yet devised…straight from the darkest dungeons of depravity…

    Take a look at Jihadi Mum here…she’s also anti-Assad, just like our ‘peace’ signing-off Talha…

    Here she is, kissing her two tiny daughters goodbye, before blowing them up like little rag dolls by remote control inside a Damascus police station…

    Jihadi mum kisses tiny daughters, aged seven and nine, goodbye – then sends them off on suicide bomb mission

    What a lovely ‘family’ photo…mum is there nice and modest, in fact ‘modest’ enough to surely induce PSYCHOSIS in a young child’s mind…never seeing a mother’s face, only this black hallucination from hell…and the only face these tots ever see is this bearded maniac…

    That’s some ‘tradition’ there…

    Yeah, we ‘get it’…only all too well…

    And then there is the Shafia family ‘honor’ killing in Canada about ten years ago…

    The Shafia Family murders took place on June 30, 2009 in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. Shafia sisters Zainab, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, along with Rona Muhammad Omar, 40 (all of Afghan origin), were found dead inside a car that was discovered underwater in front of the northernmost Kingston Mills lock of the Rideau Canal.[1]

    Zainab, Sahar, and Geeti were daughters of Mohammad Shafia, 58, and his wife, Tooba Mohammad Yahya, 41.

    Originally from Afghanistan, the so-called ‘father’ decided to kill his three daughters and his number one wife, Tooba, who was infertile and kept as a slave and servant…on account of ‘honor’…

    After the verdict the prosecuting attorney said this:

    This jury found that four strong, vivacious and freedom-loving women were murdered by their own family in the most troubling of circumstances. We all think of these four, wonderful women now who died needless deaths. This verdict sends a very clear message about our Canadian values and the core principles in a free and democratic society that all Canadians enjoy and even visitors to Canada enjoy.

    Shafia family murders

    This grotesque femicide is simply par for the course in your so-called ‘religion of peace’…

    Yes, Talha…we ‘get it’ it alright…our nightmare never ends with you people…either you are killing or mistreating your women, or you are attacking innocent folks going about their daily routine, or we are reading about what monstrosities you are committing in Syria…the happy times just never end…

    • Replies: @Talha
  312. @Seraphim

    Hmm.

    I can see my original proposal hasn’t gone over well with you. In fact, you seem rather offended at the very suggestion that we try to approach each other with mutual respect. Is this how you intend to convert people to your faith?

    Now I’ll oblige you by addressing some of what you write, not because I’m interested in arguing with you, but simply to correct your error.

    Islam never called for ‘it’?

    Precisely.

    Had Islam called for compelling non-Muslims to abandon their religion, not a single non-Muslim house of worship under Muslim rule would have remained standing. The historical record would have revealed mass forced conversion, which it never did.

    To begin, you argue that da’wah constitutes an invitation to Islam, which, if rejected, necessitates warfare. To prove your point, you provide piecemeal passages of translated letters attributed to the Prophet.

    First: The Prophet invited numerous individuals and tribal leaders of Arabia to Islam without appending any ultimatums. These examples alone debunk your argument.

    Second: You don’t provide any information about your source material, the addressees of these passages, or the historical context in which they’re written, which, quite frankly, reveals your academic dishonesty.

    For example, the first excerpt you provide is from Muir’s Life of Mahomet, and the addressees are the Christians Yuhanna ibn Rubah and the Chiefs of Aylah, who received this message only after the Roman vassal Sharhabeel ibn Amr Al-Ghassani had assassinated the Muslim emissary Harith ibn Umair Al-Azdi.

    The murder of an ambassador is an act of war, which explains the entirety of the letter itself.

    The statement, “Should you reject this invitation, then you will be held responsible for all the evils of the Christians of your people,” is but a reminder to the Abyssian Negus that, even if he rejects Islam, he’ll still bear the burden of responsibility for what his people do. It’s not a threat to invade.

    The third excerpt is addressed to the leadership of Oman, which had been a vassal of a Persian Empire unabashedly inimical to the early Muslim polity. That Persians provided support to the Quraish and others hostile to Islam is well established.

    The fourth excerpt should begin “You are going to a nation of The People of the Book,” not “You are going to the Jews and Christians.” The nation was Yemen, and the passage you cite constituted no threat of war.

    You then reference 9: 29, which I fully explained in my last response to Aaron above. I’m feeling charitable, so here’s the link that debunks that particular argument of yours:

    https://abuaminaelias.com/verse-929-and-the-battle-of-tabuk/

    Your cited exegesis, by the way, is not made by “(Muslim) commenters”, it’s made by one exegete, known by the name of Abu’l A’la Maududi. Once we synthesize his commentary with that of Abu Amina Elias, it becomes fairly clear that putting an end to the supremacy of a patently hostile polity is the aim of 9: 29.

    Finally — and I don’t mean to sound glib about this — the rest of your post was pure comedy gold:

    So, in order to agree “to avoid vain contention” Muslims in Christian lands should stop dawah and jihad. They should sit at the table with Christians and eat pork and drink wine with them if you want to be accepted.

    You forgot to add that we should all don skin-tight clothing that reveals a good portion of flesh as well as the contour of our erogenous zones.

    That should satisfy FB.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  313. Metropole says:

    Deprogramming islamophobia is a tedious task.

    • Replies: @Talha
  314. @FB

    Look, you’re obviously a NUT…

    In today’s world, I accept that as a compliment.

    That ‘modesty’ that you harp about should be the WOMAN’S CHOICE

    I completely agree.

    I think it’s quite possible that many women in the Muslim world don’t want to be compelled to wear Islamic attire, and there are some Muslim opinions that the verse commanding veiling applied strictly to the wives of the Prophet.

    But then there are many women who wear it freely, with a sense of dignity about who they are.

    Long story short, your depiction of all Muslim women as hapless prisoners of male chauvinism and deprived of agency merely betrays your lack of familiarity with the Muslim world.

    I’ll let my wife know what she thinks about my treating her like chattel.

    She could use a good laugh.

  315. Talha says:
    @FB

    you are killing or mistreating your women, or you are attacking innocent folks going about their daily routine, or we are reading about what monstrosities you are committing in Syria

    Uh hunh. (sigh) Now, can you provide any evidence from anything that I’ve ever stated (since you keep addressing me with “you” in that tirade) that I support any of what you have accused me of supporting? Direct quotes from me please, not your presumptions or interpretations of what I have stated.

    Since the first few requests for evidence was a wash, let’s see if you have any evidence for these accusations.

    Peace.

    • LOL: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @FB
  316. Talha says:
    @Metropole

    I would personally advise against using that term, too much baggage since someone else defined it:

    It’s probably better to use the internal term “Lahabism”, that was coined by Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad, to connote the similarities in attitude with the historical Abu Lahab of the pagan Qurayshi elite.

    Just my two cents.

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @Metropole
  317. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    The letters of Mahomed to the heads of state are in the public domain for anyone to consult (Wikipedia). It would have been tedious to quote them in extenso.
    There was no imminent invasion by the Byzantines. The truth is that the first expedition of Mahomed was repelled by the Byzantines at the battle of Muta.

    9:29 cannot be read in isolation. Context, context!
    It is from the translation into modern English language by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali (with his commentaries),

    30. And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
    31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God – Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) . Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).”
    32. They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah’s Light (with which Muhammad has been sent – Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).
    33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad ) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun hate (it).

    Curse them! Message of peace and love!

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  318. FB says: • Website
    @Talha

    Get real, clown…you’ve made perfectly clear where you stand…

    These Muslim maniacs that snuff out their own flesh and blood mouth EXACTLY the same kind of paeans of piety that you have been regaling us with here…

    Sure, you’d like to now distance yourself from this ugliness…after all, your whole spiel has fallen flat on its face…but the fact remains that these ‘brothers’ of yours are not very far removed from the same fanaticism with which you are afflicted…

    Go and do a little reading on these ‘honor’ killings…each and every country of Europe and the west [and farther afield] has been visited by this plague…in one case in Denmark NINE family members were convicted…it’s always a family affair, with multiple perps, father, brother, uncles, aunts…

    And for what…because the poor child didn’t want to wear a hijab, or eschewed ‘tradition’…?

    This is the road that you are on, ‘akhi’, and this is where it leads…no other outcome is possible once you start filling your head with this fake ‘modesty’ nonsense…[the Amish also promote modesty, but not the violent kind]…

    No one is under any illusion what the ground rules are in this Mohammedan cult, despite your comically fantastic depictions here…it’s all about CONTROL…MY way, or off with the head…in the name of Allah, of course…

    • Replies: @Talha
  319. Talha says:
    @FB

    Ok, so you don’t have any evidence at all from me that I support or have ever supported any of those things you accused me of. Figures. Waste of time, welcome to my ignore list.

  320. FB says: • Website

    What did I ‘accuse’ you of, little ‘akhi’…?

    You’re the one who accused yourself of being an obvious extremist…and then proceeded to prove it with your endless blathering about Islam…pasting videos from bearded maniacs, etc…

    I merely pointed out some of the things that your FELLOW TRAVELERS do…you know, the guys that are ‘living the dream’…😂

  321. Metropole says:
    @Talha

    I would personally advise against using that term, too much baggage since someone else defined it:

    The word ‘Islamophobia’ has become quite established in the English language. It would be hard to dump it and switch to another word.

    It’s understandable that we don’t want to become part of the LGBTQM movement, but the word doesn’t automatically imply that.

    It’s more complex than that. It is the left that promotes minority rights. With most Muslims in the West being ethnic minorities they automatically come under the umbrella of the left. For practical reasons most Muslims will be happy to get whatever support they can.

    There are some aspects of Islam that appeal to the right, like family values etc, but the right is also the domain of the white nationalists and the pro-Israel, anti-Islam evangelical Christians.

    Instead of cutting ourselves from people who may be willing to help us Muslims need to take whatever support they can get from wherever it comes.

    Since we’re trying to communicate in English we need to use English words. An alternative to ‘Islamophobia’ can be ‘anti-Islamism’? But then we’ve already allowed the word ‘Islamism’ to be used for radical Islam. I’ve seen Muslim writers use that term in a negative sense, which is a pity.

    • Replies: @Talha
  322. @Talha

    The role of Western intelligence agencies (and western military, police and politicians in general) in dealing with Islamist terrorism is unclear. There is considerable evidence that western intelligence was involved originally in the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism and also in the more recent revival of Islamic fundamentalism to bring down the genuinely anti-Zionist Arab nationalist and socialist regimes. So on the one hand the US sent terrorists to Guantanamo and western authorities regularly jail some extremists yet at the same time they give sanctuary to extremists on the run from Russia, China and many Muslim countries, as well as allowing/enabling/funding the recruitment, transport and arming of jihadis. So they claim they’re against Islamic terrorism yet use it to achieve their geopolitical goals of destabilising countries that are a threat to Israel or in the pursuit of their own overseas neo-colonial, imperialist and globalist interests (note the US taking the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) off the terrorist list to encourage their activities against China (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/7/us-removes-group-condemned-by-china-from-terror-list).

    Under the presence of the US military purportedly fighting terrorism, the extremist Islamic caliphate grew to occupy huge swathes of Iraq and Syria, and it was only after the Russians launched and demonstrated a truly successful anti-terrorist mission in Syria: killing over 133,000 jihadi terrorists and 865 terrorist commanders, destroying 133,542 terrorist facilities including 400 plants for the illegal refining of oil and 4,100 oil depots, all of this with a small air force force launching 44,000 combat sorties and 200 launches from navy vessels (https://tass.com/world/1206679) that the US finally decided to drive the terrorists out of Raqqa and Mosul.

    Now that PR China is a major world superpower power it is high time it projected some force and involved itself in some of these anti-terrorists actions against the jihadis in the Middle East, perhaps as a junior partner of Russia, seeing Turkey has been grooming Chinese terrorists and deploying them in Syria and perhaps even in the Caucuses. Some combat experience IRL could do the Red Army a world of good, but of course they would require an invitation from a legitimate government unlike the US and NATO member countries that act against legitimate and recognised UN member governments, committing the crime of the “act of war” that should have all their warmonger leaders hauled before a new Nuremberg tribunal and strung up.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @FB
  323. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Exactly why this issue is very complex with many moving parts and diverging and converging interests. I remember one of the most eye opening reports that made me question the mainline narrative was when that Israeli commander mentioned that Daesh apologized to the Israelis for accidentally hitting one of their assets across the border as well as reports of them attacking Hamas:
    “ISIS Declares War on Hamas, and Gaza Families Disown Sons in Sina

    The video accuses Hamas of betraying Palestinians by imprisoning extremists in Gaza, failing to prevent the American recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, and being supported by Iran.

    It urges attacks on Hamas’s members, courts and security positions, as well as on Shiites and Christians in Gaza, according to the Washington-based SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors Islamic State propaganda.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/10/world/middleeast/isis-hamas-sinai.html

    Just really bizarre stuff.

    “Now that PR China is a major world superpower power it is high time it projected some force and involved itself in some of these anti-terrorists actions against the jihadis in the Middle East…”
    That would certainly be a novel development, don’t know how that would play out honestly, but it is interesting to speculate.

    Peace.

  324. FB says: • Website
    @Commentator Mike

    Excellent summary…

    Everyone knows by now that western intel has been using militant Islam for its own imperialist objectives against rivals like Russia and lately China, as well as targeted regimes in the Muslim world itself…

    Putin himself has stated that he has ‘proof’ of this in Chechnya during the difficulties there in the ’90s…and he is not known to speak hollow words…

    Now of course, the neck-deep involvement of the western elite with Islamist terrorism is coming back to bite them, as was inevitable…unfortunately, it is innocent folks that are the targets of the violence…

    There is considerable evidence that western intelligence was involved originally in the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism…

    Not sure how this will be received by Brother Talha, who has voiced support in this very thread for the Muslim Brotherhood [his involvement with this extremist ideology may well be much more intimate, although he is loath to admit such incriminating specifics]…

    Akhi Brotherhoods

  325. @FB

    Now of course, the neck-deep involvement of the western elite with Islamist terrorism is coming back to bite them, as was inevitable…unfortunately, it is innocent folks that are the targets of the violence…

    Again I am not sure that the intelligence agencies and their think tanks wouldn’t have predicted this and advised the politicians accordingly, since as you note it was inevitable, and even a layperson less informed than serious intel analysts could have anticipated this. Perhaps in some of their greater scheme of things this may not be seen as an undesirable outcome.

    • Agree: FB
  326. what if says:
    @Commentator Mike

    That is most accepted “truth”. It may or not be true, I don’t know. I learned at high school history lessons slightly different story, that did not impact real history at all. The story was that Bosnian and Bogumiles were not the same. Bosnians did not have either church or christian religion. Bogumiles wer a sect of christianity, which did not agree with the way Church conducted religious business. In Europe, there were several sects and movements of that kind. The nobility did not like it a bit, so they were prosecuted as heretics. I guess prosecution of heresy at that time was a bit harsh, so many of them fled to Bosnia, where they had not been prosecuted. Bosnians accepted them vithout violence – they were peaceful and tolerant people. Since both Bosnians and Bogumiles had a vision of low maintenance church, with no wealth and glitter and privileges, it was convenient to consider them the same. They religious practices were very similar, so it is easy to equate them. Since they both spoke Serbian language, why not put them in the same basked and be done with it.

    The difference I am aware, Bogumiles were Christians and they wanted new way of practicing religion. Bosnians were not christian at the time and were highly tolerant people. One cannot call highly tolerant neither Serbs nor Croats. That is all I know, never did some extra research. True or not, it did not change history.

    My personal observation after living Bosnia is that most muslims are tolerant and peaceful, not too many were religious – they were the most devoted communist socialists in former Yugoslavia. Perhaps they most honestly believed in Yugoslavia, compared to all others. They simply follow the rule of the land. If the rule is Islam under Turks, no problem, they follow. The rule becomes Communist, no God, no problem again. Now back to Islam, Arabic kind, no problem again. They were not people to raise in insurrections or revolutions. It is Serbs that are troublemakers in that sense. Croats would rather do it in a diplomatic way.

    Everything else is the same. Pick randomly a Serb from Serbia, Muslim from Bosnia, Croat from Croatia, they will be the same, except religion. Croats would be most religious. Serbs are religious so they can show the world what religious mean, yeah. Muslims – very few are pious moslems, but they follow the rule of the land. I sad random, common person. People in power and in politics, they are not random nor common, so it is hard to generalize by observing them.

    That would be the end of Serbo-Croatian-Muslim history so far. I wanted to make the main part of the story a bit funny, but I fail each time I try that.

    A friend of mine says “Yugoslavia, that was a beautiful fairy tale, unfortunately without happy end.
    But, only , most of them are peaceful and melancholic, not all. The violent minority more violent than both Serbs and Croats. When Turks came, they converted from no religion to Islam, perhaps Islam is closer to their beliefs than Christianity. However, they were not the only ones to convert, some Serbs and Croats converted too. Maybe that explains melancholic majority and violent minority, those genes must have come from somewhere.

  327. @FB

    I can’t say I know much about the Muslim Brotherhood but its origins are shrouded in controversy and I’m sure an objective history of it would make for interesting reading. It looks to me like it was set up to be a broad populist movement which fought against colonialism, and for social justice and workers’ rights, as well as raising the Palestinian issue very early on even before the establishment of Israel, but of course with strong Islamic and Sharia Law underpinnings. It was also involved in charitable activities but became political and insurgent when confronted by repressive and unpopular regimes. I guess it’s sort of like a “big tent” radical Islamic movement and I’m not sure that its radicalism is entirely negative. Certainly some, or many, of the present day Al Qaida and ISIS terrorists have emerged from this movement although I don’t know if the movement itself is to blame. OK, perhaps one could say that involvement in the Brotherhood is usually the first step in Islamic radicalisation but in which direction any adherents take it further, if at all, is another matter. One can definitely network within it to find contacts that could lead one to yet more radical, militant, and even terrorist organisations, but then that’s not saying much for such a broad movement.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @FB
    , @Talha
  328. @Seraphim

    It would have been tedious to quote them in extenso.

    Yet it wouldn’t have been tedious to cite the addressee, would it? After all, your faith demands integrity and honesty.

    Or so I’m told.

    There was no imminent invasion by the Byzantines.

    Yet there was a de facto declaration of war in the assassination of a Muslim ambassador, imminent invasion or not.

    It’s absolutely certain that, had it been Muslims murdering a Byzantine emissary, Byzantium would have amassed their forces and waged war against Muslims.

    The Battle of Mu’tah occurred following that assassination. Even an amateur source of information such as Wikipedia acknowledges that.

    Context, context!

    From the English Standard Version:

    Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth: I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. [Matthew 10: 34-35]

    He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.” [Luke 22: 36-38]

    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [Galatians 1: 8]

    Context, context!

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  329. @Commentator Mike

    That’s a fairly good synoptic portrait of the MB.

    There’s one way to look at the MB’s development that applies to many other groups as well …

    A popular movement usually begins with a devoted core of followers, true to the original mission of the movement. In most, if not all cases, there is a direct correlation between the swelling of its ranks and the potential that it will include deviants or saboteurs among them. This has been so with the MB, but successor representatives who have remained faithful to the original mission are certainly not responsible for those who act independently that leadership.

    I’m not sure what the potential for networking within the MB toward an extremist group is, but this would not be sanctioned by its leadership anyways. It would be much like a solider or agent going rogue.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  330. FB says: • Website
    @Commentator Mike

    The MB’s goal is to turn the world into an Islamic State, under Sharia Law…

    It is certainly not something that is merely ‘political’ or benign…there is definitely a militant wing under this big tent…

    Trump had sought to declare the MB a terrorist organization…

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  331. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    One of the best and nuanced tales on the Muslim Brotherhood I have seen in a while, much appreciated.

    Again, lots of factors at play here, for instance the pitch for better relations between Iran and Egypt during the short-lived Morsi administration:
    “During ousted President Mohammed Morsi‘s presidency relations improved. Morsi was the first Egyptian president since 1979 to visit to Tehran. Currently, the two countries have diplomatic representation through interest sections.”
    https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/3/13/egypt-iran-a-possible-thaw-in-relations

    As far as splintering and extremist breakaways; it is interesting to note, for instance, the view of the son of Shaykh Abdullah Azzam, whose original foreign fighter organization was meant to organize a military response to invasions in the Muslim world, like in Afghanistan, but Al-Qaeda broke from this model down an extreme path:
    “Bin Laden founded al Qaeda and was intent on creating a worldwide jihad. Abdullah Azzam thought his former protege had come under the influence of a group of extremist Egyptian militants — who were taking jihad in the wrong direction, resorting to terrorism and killing innocent civilians…But the jihad in Iraq hasn’t gone according to the Azzam plan. Huthaifa points to his father’s will and says that kidnapping journalists, beheading contractors and killing civilians is not what his father envisioned.”
    http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/23/schuster.column/index.html

    Olivier Roy noted the same issue and made some great points in this article, especially the section called “Jihadism Replaces Jihad”:
    “It is too often forgotten that suicide terrorism and phenomena such as al-Qaeda or ISIS are new in the history of the Muslim world, and cannot be explained simply by the rise of fundamentalism. That is why I wrote, ‘terrorism does not arise from the radicalization of Islam, but from the Islamization of radicalism.’…”
    “It is important to realize that this jihadi model is not necessarily terrorist. I was in close contact with international jihadis who came to Afghanistan in the 1980s and who were organized through the ‘service bureau’ that later became al-Qaeda after Abdallah Azzam was murdered in November 1989. Under Azzam’s leadership they never resorted to terrorism, or even suicide bombings (even if they always volunteered for the front lines). They never targeted Soviet diplomats or civilians even though these were present in the Arab world. Certainly, they had Salafi leanings and readily lectured Afghans about ‘the right Islam,’ even if Azzam gave strict instructions in Join the Caravan not to interfere with Afghan society. ..”
    “Furthermore, Shiism does not allow ‘holy ignorance’ to develop among young radicals who proclaim themselves masters of the truth. The clergy has the monopoly on religious knowledge, and will not let young militants tread on its toes. The principle of marjayya (spiritual guidance of the great ayatollahs) forbids believers from inventing their own Islam. The believer cannot reject the principle of authority: he can choose his source of inspiration, but not act as a substitute for it.”
    http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/cover-story/islam-and-the-cult-of-death

    Peace.

  332. Metropole says:

    Russia is a good example of a European country successfully integrating Muslims into their society.

    Russia has had contact with Islam for hundreds of years and most Russian Muslims are natives of the Russian landmass, but many are Central Asians from former Soviet states.

    Muslims in Chechnya were used against Russia but now it is a peaceful part of the country. Putin’s Russia is following a successful policy of integrating Muslims. Russia has anywhere between 15-25 million Muslims, depending on who you listen to, and up to 4 million Muslims in Moscow.

    A Patriotic Islam? Russia’s Muslims Under Putin
    https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/18150/a-patriotic-islam-russia-s-muslims-under-putin

    Grozny during war

    Grozny now

    Putin inaugurates Grand Mosque in Moscow

    How well Muslims are integrated into society really depends on the intentions of the government. If France and other Western countries have an anti-Islam policy to justify their Middle East adventures then there’s little anyone can do. They will have strife until the time they decide to tone it down.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  333. Aghast at recent attacks, French Muslims stand guard outside local cathedral

    “In recent years, I’ve had a pit in my stomach,” because every time Islamic extremist violence strikes France, he said, French Muslims face new stigmatization, even though “we had nothing to do with it.”

    He called the beheading of a teacher near Paris last month — targeted because he showed his class caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad for a debate on free expression — an act of “unbelievable, unprecedented cruelty.”

    Then when three people were killed last Thursday in the Notre Dame Basilica in Nice, Benferhat said he was so sickened that he wanted to do something “so that everyone wakes up.”

    Benferhat, who works for French oil company Total and coaches at a local football club, talked to a Muslim friend who was in Nice that day, “and we had this idea. We needed to do something beyond paying homage to the victims. We said, we will protect churches ourselves.”

  334. Talha says:

    The next terrorist act, the shooting of a Greek Orthodox priest in Lyon, was also ascribed to bloodthirsty Muslims, until it was discovered that the criminal was a fellow Orthodox ex-monk with some personal grudge against the priest; then the Lyon attack was dropped into the memory hole.

    “Lyon shooting: Suspect admits attacking priest ‘over affair’

    The 40-year-old suspect told prosecutors the priest was having an affair with his wife.”
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54854982

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  335. Talha says:
    @Metropole

    Since we’re trying to communicate in English we need to use English words.

    This was coined and suggested by a Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad, who is an English convert (Timothy Winter). And, with enough effort, it can be adopted, for example:
    Chuddies, the Indian English word for underwear, is among 650 new entries recognised as official English words by the definitive ‘Oxford English Dictionary’ (OED) in a latest update released on Thursday.”
    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/indian-word-chuddies-makes-it-to-oxford-dictionary-after-being-used-in-bbc-show-goodness-gracious-me/articleshow/68522359.cms

    An alternative to ‘Islamophobia’ can be ‘anti-Islamism’? But then we’ve already allowed the word ‘Islamism’ to be used for radical Islam.

    But I’m not talking about the people who are merely against Islamism (I myself have major problems with that ideology), they hate Islam itself. So, maybe “anti-Islam” might work better. Again, I personally like Lahabism. Plus, with nearly 2 billion Muslims, Lahabism may work just fine internally among ourselves when speaking about the phenomenon in English terms or writing about it in English for Muslim readers. One of the advantages about being an ummah this large is that you don’t really need any permission or approval from anyone else for these matters.

    Wa salaam.

  336. utu says:
    @Ivan

    My Sept 2, 2017 take on Talha:

    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/florensac-olargues-pont-sainte-esprit-and-the-cia/#comment-1992405
    He believes and will preach all Muslim mambo-jambo including the myth that there is no “usury” in Muslim world or that what he practices does not amount to usury. He is orthodox Muslim who will slit your throat when the call comes but temporarily he was assigned on the ideological front to warm up the image of Muslims by presenting himself as soft spoken and very understanding Muslim. His handlers spend fortune on Xanax to keep him going in this pretense.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @AaronB
  337. @AnonStarter

    A popular movement usually begins with a devoted core of followers, true to the original mission of the movement. In most, if not all cases, there is a direct correlation between the swelling of its ranks and the potential that it will include deviants or saboteurs among them.

    Yes, including various intelligence operatives and not just to spy but to direct, misdirect, etc. At the time the MB was created, the British would have had an interest to draw Arabs away from other popular radical movements like communism, socialism, fascism, Nazism. The Germans would have seen an anti-British potential in it and the Soviets perhaps an anti-colonial element. It is possible that funding was made available from various sources and great interest taken by the intel agencies.

  338. @FB

    The MB’s goal is to turn the world into an Islamic State, under Sharia Law…

    All Muslims want the world, not just the radical ones through jihad, although the others prefer preaching and proselytising. I should think many Christians feel the same way sending out all those preachers into China, India, or wherever, even martyrs into the cannibals’ cooking pot. How many times have you heard them say that one day, on the second coming, all the Chinese will become Christian, or all the Jews, etc. but then they cannot agree which denomination is the correct one and they try to poach and convert members from rival competing churches? Ideologies like international socialism and communism also promote world domination as a solution to wars and other problems, and as the the only way to achieve global peace.

    • Agree: Jazman
    • Replies: @FB
  339. @Talha

    And is that the child that resulted from the affair? LOL! Oh, I see the cuckolded murderer was Georgian and the cheating wife Russian so presumably all white. Still you can’t blame people when they suspect a Muslim every time there is an attack on a church or priest in the West, something like this is an exception. Now if more parents took such actions against the child molesting priests maybe then one wouldn’t jump to conclusions.

    • Replies: @Talha
  340. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    Yes, it is absolutely certain that the battle of Mutah followed the execution of the emissary (which is less than an ‘ambassador’) of Mahomed who ‘delivered’ to the Ghassanid (Arab Christian) Byzantine governor the insufferably insolent ‘invitation’ that he ‘cannot refuse’ when the Arab raiders under the command of their older ‘Abrahamic’ cousins were moving forward for the ‘liberation of the promised (to Abraham) “Land’ and rebuilding the ‘Temple’ (which amounted to incitement to rebellion). If the ‘letters’ were not altogether the invention of the fabricated ‘history’ of Al Tabari, the letter was the declaration of war and the Byzantines treated it as it deserved and routed the bands of the raiders.
    BTW, the Muslims preach a gospel contrary to the one of St.Paul (and of the Christ, make no mistake) therefore they fall under the curse. `You’ve made your bed, now lie on it.’

  341. Talha says:

    My Sept 2, 2017 take on Talha

    2020, and still living rent free.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rent%20Free

    Life is beautiful when the sun shines.

    Peace.

  342. Talha says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Still you can’t blame people when they suspect a Muslim every time there is an attack on a church or priest in the West

    No, that wasn’t a comment about that. It was more along the lines of; dayyum son, priest be getting down with members of the congregation!

    Peace.

  343. AaronB says:
    @utu

    He is orthodox Muslim who will slit your throat when the call comes but temporarily he was assigned on the ideological front to warm up the image of Muslims by presenting himself as soft spoken and very understanding Muslim

    He is the ingratiating, slimy, fawning, subcontinental type that you find in Kiplings stories, that will smile to your face and slit your throat from behind when your back is turned.

    AnonStarter is at least a man – completely open about what he is, hostile, an enemy, without pretense, as is Colin Wright. Terrible people, but unashamedly terrible.

    I have ten times more respect for an open, fearless enemy, an openly bad person, than the fawning, ingratiating type.

    • Agree: FB, Seraphim
    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
  344. How blessed is the one true to his word,
    The example of truth a mighty sword.
    No divisions needed when truth speaks:
    God walks with the warrior who justice seeks.

    In a world where lies of’n set one’s fate,
    Whether to gallows or elites’ estate,
    Angels stand by with halberd and spear—
    The poor man prospers because God is near.

    • Thanks: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  345. Metropole says:

    On most websites that don’t allow alternate viewpoints an article like this would have generated, maybe, 20-50 comments. A few people would have read half the article, said things like: “kill, deport, ban all Muslims,” and gone home.

    It is because there are a few Muslims on this thread presenting their point of view that comments have exceeded 350. On this, and other, sites even more than the original article it is the comments that are more interesting and educational.

    If people would only debate the topic and avoid personal attacks it will be better for everyone.

    • Replies: @FB
  346. Talha says:
    @SeekerofthePresence

    Was this original? If so, very nice. Thanks again for sharing.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @SeekerofthePresence
  347. FB says: • Website
    @Metropole

    It is because there are a few Muslims on this thread presenting their point of view…

    Presenting a ‘point of view’ is all well and good, but if you are presenting wall to wall bullshit that flies in the face of facts, then that is another matter…

    Here is a headline from yesterday about reform in the Arab Emirates:

    UAE relaxes Islamic laws to allow alcohol consumption, sex outside marriage & criminalizes ‘honor killings’

    The legal clause which allowed the judges to issue merciful sentences to men who commit a so-called “honor killing” has also been removed. Those crimes will from now be treated as a regular murder.

    According to human rights groups, every year thousands of females in the Middle East and South Asia become victims of “honor killings,” which are carried out by relatives against women and girls who somehow violate Islamic laws and bring ‘shame’ on the family.

    So only now in the year 2020 an Islamic country is finally criminalizing barbaric killing of women by their OWN FAMILY…?

    And this goatclown ‘Talha’ squats here on every comment section dribbling never-ending nonsense about Islamic ‘values’…?

    Here he has waxed poetic about how ‘family values’ are a major strength of the Islamic way of life…this is a constant theme that he propagates, despite the obvious contradiction that literally every single woman in Islam lives with a sword hanging over her head, which her father or husband can bring down on her neck at any time, playing god and executioner…and with full legal sanction by both the state and the powerful religious authority…

    In a comment referenced above, Talha said this:

    We just tend to have stronger families.

    Can you believe this gall?…he presumes to lecture westerners about FAMILY VALUES…!

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Jazman
  348. FB says: • Website
    @Commentator Mike

    Ideologies like international socialism and communism also promote world domination as a solution to wars and other problems, and as the the only way to achieve global peace.

    At least that’s the narrative propagated by global capitalism, or GloboCap as CJ Hopkins puts it…

    But who exactly is the one that has actually ACHIEVED not only global domination, but global enslavement?

    Islam is actually a weak second place in the race for enslaving humanity, having so far only managed to enslave the half of humanity in their own midst–women…

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  349. AaronB says:
    @FB

    Its a pose, its trying to ignore reality by pretending. Its a well known feature of Muslim psychology.

    In the Six Day War, the various Muslim countries concealed their losses and were telling each other they’d achieved stunning victories. In the face of devastating reality Muslims retreat into fantasy- this has been noted by many observers of Muslim culture.

    The Muslim world is tearing itself apart and suffering, if possible, worse social dysfunction than the West – but the more this is so, the more our Muslim commenters have to “strike the pose” that they represent a healthy culture that should be admonishing others.

    Its a pain-saving way of coping in the short term, but it leads to an inability to cure ones pathologies. The more Muslims like the commenters here, who instead of investing their energies in facing their cultures problems invest all their energy in managing perceptions and striking poses, the more rooted those pathologies become.

    It is ultimately born of a psychological fragility – a fragile narcissm that cannot face harsh truths about oneself. The general “macho” attitude of Islam – cutting off heads, we will conquer you, rah rah – hides a very fragile self image, as these things always do.

    This is why the West is ultimately in a better situation- people here know something is wrong, they’re facing up to that. Muslims are still in the fantasy stage.

    I know you don’t like Israel, but one of the good things about the Israeli army is they have a ruthless culture of honest self criticism. After every failed raid each soldier, down to the lowest private, is encouraged to be absolutely blunt and scathing about mistakes. This way they learn and dont console themselves with fantasies.

    Of course in other ways, Iaraelis can be just as avoidant of self criticism and prone to fantasy – but generally they cultivate an attitude of bluntly honest self criticism.

    • Replies: @FB
  350. @Talha

    You are very welcome, especially since you are the inspiration behind it. If ever there was a halberd, you’re it. Apparently the tip has pricked many a conscience here on UR. Your blade remains keen through many battles. As the old saw goes, if they’re (almost) all against you, you must be on the right track.

    Thanks for your kind words, and for always fighting. God bless you and your family.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Talha
  351. @AaronB

    He is the ingratiating, slimy, fawning, subcontinental type that you find in Kiplings stories, that will smile to your face and slit your throat from behind when your back is turned.

    Your comment reminded me of an old Arabic saying which was imparted to me by a Jordanian Christian acquaintance – “Eat with the Jews, sleep with the Christians”

    Since Kosher is permissible under shariah, Muslims may freely dine with Jews, but are advised to not relax their guard around them since a Jew might kill a Muslim in their sleep. Interesting that you attribute this to Talha.

    Also similarly we know that a common complaint against Jews has been their lack of loyalty towards their host nations. We see that even today as Jewry’s main priority is Israel and to safeguard their interests they promote Marxism and leftist degeneracy in their host countries. Yet if the media is to be believed, it is Muslims who have no loyalty.

    We also know Jews will happily stifle free speech if it criticizes Israel or is skeptical of the holocaust (for those oh so important pragmatic reasons) and yet they’ve got everyone believing that Muslims hate America’s freedoms.

    I can see why hate for Muslims is on the rise, it’s because the Jews have grafted their own image onto Muslims.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  352. Akouo says:

    The ‘Character’ who committed the murders in Nice was, only a few days previously, a refugee on Lampedusa island. Someone organised his travel and outfitted him with two mobile phones and a change of clothes. This’ someone’ would undoubtedly be working for a jew backed NGO as it benefitted neither Muslim nor Christian. I treat the charlie hebdo ‘massacre’ as a holiday and hope for a repeat someday. Right on cue, the jews in France have grabbed the events they authored to claim centre stage in feeling “vulnerable”. Their cargo cult like religion would be laughable were it not for their psychotic separateness making them a worldwide mafia on steroids. 14 million in the world which is a tiny number really but just look at that disproportionate influence!

  353. Jazman says:
    @FB

    When Islamic fundamentalists fought against the Serbs, the West helped them. The Hollywood propaganda machinery released films in which George Clooney and Nicole Kidman chase Serbian terrorists while trying to plant an atomic bomb in the United Nations, and they sent Richard Gere, Owen Wilson, Robert De Niro to the terrible Serbs … He played the Serbian terrorist, among others and John Travolta, although the multimillion-dollar Serbian diaspora has never even thrown a firecracker in an American or European city.
    The West’s allies are shooting at Vienna these days. According to estimates by the Austrian intelligence service, most of the 250 radical imams are from the former Yugoslavia. These are the ones to whom the West has recognized the state. Those to whom he sent weapons. Those for whom he bombed Serbia. The French colonel, the Reverend Jacques Hogard, wrote a long time ago: “Europe has died in Kosovo.”

    • Agree: FB, Seraphim
  354. Jazman says:
    @FB

    My suggestion is if you can google translate some of professor Miroljub Jevtic interviews . I learned from him a lot about Islam .
    Professor of the Faculty of Political Sciences Miroljub Jevtić is one of the greatest experts on the Islamic religion in the world. He is the founder of the scientific direction of the political science of religion and his approach to the study of this phenomenon has been accepted at the world’s largest universities.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroljub_Jevti%C4%87

    • Agree: Seraphim
    • Thanks: FB
  355. FB says: • Website
    @AaronB

    I know you don’t like Israel…

    That’s not true…

    I am not Jewish, but I have ALWAYS held the principled position that Jews have a legitimate claim to Israel, if for no other reason than the WW2 genocide…but that does NOT include the occupied territories gained in war…

    That principled position comports EXACTLY with a substantial portion of Israeli public opinion…

    Haaretz and its core readership are fiercely opposed to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, to the government’s support for settlers there, to the government’s recalibration of the High Court, to Israel’s state-religion status quo and to other conservative trends.

    Opinion:
    The People vs. Haaretz

    That’s a propaganda piece in The New York Times by a former Haaretz staffer who tries to portray the Israeli opposition to illegal occupation as some kind of ‘fringe’, which it is not and never has been…

    The Israeli military is another matter…you are grossly exaggerating the ‘culture of self-criticism’…

    The IDF is and has been for a long time an OCCUPATION FORCE…this assignment requires, ipso facto, a certain level of brutality…that is just the nature of that game…

    In terms of waging actual war on a battlefield, the IDF has proved very competent and with high professionalism…but when called upon for things like Cast Lead and such operations against a civilian population with only small elements of armed opposition mixed in with the unarmed populace, then war crimes are INEVITABLE…and on a large scale…

    You and other Israeli right wingers will find that that the Israeli opposition to continued occupation will be proved right…this is not sustainable and only harms Israel in the long run…

    I do however note that Israel is not in a happy position that it finds itself an enemy of the entire Islamic world…a world that insists on a quite fanatical view of human affairs, which is completely at odds with enlightenment values…as we see right on this thread with this odious Talha character…

    PS…I agree with you wholeheartedly that Talha’s duplicitous cloak of ‘peace’ is the most repulsive part of his shtick…he is clearly a proselytizer trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes…

    In my experience, you can always find ‘menscher’ among Jews…but hardly so with Muslims, although I do find decent folks among them also…you simply cannot categorize and stereotype…which is a good rule of thumb for ALL people…

    • Thanks: AaronB
  356. @FB

    Yes, I forgot to mention the globalist ideology which is the one presently going for global domination, and as you point out its NWO envisages enslavement of humanity although they don’t mention it as such.

    And Islam has no chance of taking over the world if we consider China, India, Latin and South America. But since nearly a quarter of humanity is Muslim it is fair that they should present their views on this free speech website.

  357. @Metropole

    It’s remarkable how Grozny has been rebuilt. No doubt those in charge of the West are seething with hate and envy and would like nothing better than to disrupt the peaceful coexistence of Russians and their Muslim minority.

    • Agree: FB
  358. FB says: • Website
    @SeekerofthePresence

    I do admire your kind heart, Seeker…

    But your choice of sharp, martial object as metaphor seems a bit unfortunate…😕

    • Replies: @SeekerofthePresence
  359. @FB

    Classic FB riposte—touché! Lol

    • Thanks: FB
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  360. Ron Unz says:
    @SeekerofthePresence

    Classic FB riposte—touché! Lol

    Well, I happened to glance through this thread, and noticing that one of the most energetic participants was “FB”, who certainly seems very worried about the worldwide threat of “radical Islam.”

    For those of you not already aware, you should realize that “FB” is a total lunatic, or at least is pretending to be.

    Most notably, earlier this year he claimed that SIX MILLION(!!!) Americans had starved to death during our Great American Famine of the 1930s, one of the worst in modern world history. Yet apparently nobody at the time—including America’s own large and active Communist Party—had noticed those horrific events:

    NOT account for over 6 MILLION AMERICANS STARVED IN FAMINE OF THE 1930s…

    One of the worst famines of the 20’th century…far worse than anything, per capita, than in China or Russia…[where btw the famines occurred BEFORE communism, not during…]…

    https://www.unz.com/tsaker/what-does-the-empires-agony-mean-for-the-jewish-state-of-israel/?showcomments#comment-3908243

    I suspect this views on Islam are about as realistic…

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Thanks: Metropole
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Commentator Mike
  361. FB says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    Well…I’m not going to derail this thread about Radical Islam with this irrelevant issue of the demographic catastrophe in the 1930s US Dust Bowl [which most people know to be 100 percent true]…

    Mr. Unz has helpfully linked to that thread where I present the facts about that era’s population numbers, immigration, birth rates etc…

    Likely he’s still sore because he lost that ‘engagement’…😂

    But just to set the record straight, I do take exception to the way he has characterized my participation here…

    I only became ‘energetic’ when the extremist elements here began going completely off the charts with their bloviating about the alleged Muslim ‘family values’…

    I will certainly stand up and make my voice heard when the issue is Muslim femicide…a huge problem that is unconscionable to many people…Mr Unz’s ‘mileage’ notwithstanding…

  362. Talha says:
    @SeekerofthePresence

    That is quite generous of you; may the Beloved likewise envelop you in generosity and bounty.

    God bless you and your family.

    Likewise. Please do not forget to mention me in your supplications and entreaties; I will also remember you in mine.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @SeekerofthePresence
  363. Seraphim says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Muslims grafted the ‘Jews image’ on themselves. They proclaimed themselves ‘the best nation, the best of peoples…’ (the ‘believers in Mahomed) and the ‘rest’ (the unbelievers) ”the worst of ˹all˺ beings”.

    See a few translations of Sura Al Imran-110 from the horse’s mouth (Muslim ‘scholars’):

    Saheeh International
    “You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah. If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient”.

    Yusuf Ali
    “Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors”.

    Ali Quli Qarai
    ”You are the best nation [ever] brought forth for mankind: you bid what is right and forbid what is wrong, and have faith in Allah. And if the People of the Book had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them [some] are faithful, but most of them are transgressors”.

    Imam Iskender Ali Mihr
    ”You became the good individuals within the community (Umma, nation) that is raised up for mankind; you enjoin what is right (Al-Ma’rûf) and forbid what is wrong (Al- Munkar) and believe in Allah; and if the People of the Book had believed, it would have been better for them; of them some are believers and most of them are transgressors (Al-Fâsiqûn)”.

    Ahmed Raza Khan
    ”You are the best among all the nations that were raised among mankind – you enjoin good deeds and forbid immorality and you believe in Allah; and if the People given the Book(s) believed it would be better for them; some of them are believers (Muslims) and most of them are disbelievers. (The best Ummah is that of Prophet Mohammed – peace and blessings be upon him.)”

    Muhammad Sarwar
    ”You are the best nation that ever existed among humanity. You command people to good and prohibit them from evil, and you believe in God. Had the People of the Book accepted the faith (Islam), it would certainly have been better for them. Some of them have faith, but most of them are evil doers”.

    Arthur John Arberry
    ”You are the best nation ever brought forth to men, bidding to honour, and forbidding dishonour, and believing in God. Had the People of the Book believed, it were better for them; some of them are believers, but the most of them are ungodly”.

    ”Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Obey Allah and His Messenger.” If they still turn away, then truly Allah does not like the disbelievers”.
    ”Indeed, those who disbelieve from the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the Fire of Hell, to stay there forever. They are the worst of ˹all˺ beings”.
    ”The wealth and the children of disbelievers can never save them from the torment of Allah. They are the people of Hell, and they will remain therein eternally”.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
    , @Metropole
  364. @Seraphim

    “The best nation” via deeds, not birth. And if muslims become corrupt, then they lose God’s favor. There’s no special covenant via a special ancestor that guarantees God’s favor regardless of how vile their behavior.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Seraphim
  365. Talha says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    And if muslims become corrupt, then they lose God’s favor.

    Absolutely. And open themselves up to be replaced by others. There are many verses that mention this replacement, one of them being:
    “…Allah is Free of need, while you are the destitute. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people, and they will not be the likes of you.” (47:38)

    Note this is in the case of obstinancy and persistence in disobedience – especially publicly and openly without shame, changing around the sacred law to fit one’s desires and the like. The Divine doesn’t expect perfection, but sincere effort and acknowledgement of one’s shortcomings. In fact, the repentant sinner is the means, in the phenomenal world, by which the Divine Attributes of The Forgiving and The Pardoning become manifest:
    “By Him in Whose Hand is my soul. If you did not sin, Allah would replace you with people who would sin and they would seek forgiveness from Allah and He would forgive them.” – reported in Muslim

    “Say: ‘O Allah, indeed You are the Generous Pardoner. You love to pardon, so pardon me.’” – reported in Tirmidhi

    Peace.

  366. Seraphim says:
    @I'm Tyrone

    Deeds or birth, it is the same underlying mentality. ‘We’ are special, ‘we’ uniquely know the truth, ‘we’ alone occupy the high moral ground, which makes ‘us’ the judges and punishers of the ‘others’ who are not with ‘us’ (therefore against ‘us’) with license to kill, enslave, plunder. In fact Muslims were justifying their ‘specialness’ by their descendance from Abraham, through his ‘first born’ Ishmael. Competition for precedence.

    • Replies: @I'm Tyrone
    , @Metropole
  367. BRAVO Israel Adam! Frankly, I don’t know any journalist who is so much at home in several countries: France, USA (I remember you speaking there), Russia, Sweden and more. Especially I like your concluding quote:
    The true Christian view of the developments was expressed by Archbishop Theodosius Atallah Hanna of Sebaste in Palestine (he baptised me in 2002). He condemned the targeting of Muslims in France and around the world through degrading paintings and cartoons. “Hate speech aims at serving the policy of divide and conquer. Christians and Muslims must cement a culture of brotherhood and togetherness and we must work together, more than ever before to defeat all the plans and conspiracies that aim at dividing us and at creating discord in our ranks”, said the Palestinian bishop.  
    Hopefully, this conclusion speaks to all countries of the World!
    Mr. Shamir’s personal example shows it has a powerful appeal to the righteous Jews in France, USA, Russia, Israel and elsewhere.
    SHALOM from PLANETARIANS of The WORLD, UNITE! http://www.RAGA.org

    • Agree: AnonStarter
  368. @Ron Unz

    I don’t know how accurate FB’s estimate of the death toll of Dust Bowl USA is, and if any more reliable than those of Holodomor starvation, let alone the wild guesstimates of 60+ million Russians killed by the communists. but it was certainly an unprecedented and most devastating disaster caused not only by the weather but also by unsound and unsustainable agricultural practices and bad management of soil resources:

    https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/dust-bowl

    One just has to look at the recorded images of the disaster, and there were many more unrecorded instances, and see entire farms, villages, and settlements buried under deep layers of dust and wonder if there may not have been dead bodies under there too. All that seems to be known is that some 7,000 people died from “dust pneumonia” caused by inhaling the dust but even that could be an underestimate given the rather primitive understanding of the impacts of air pollution on health at the time. Considering that the Dust Bowl lasted for almost a decade, the actual death toll from all its impacts is anybody’s guess. Americans readily criticise Soviet agricultural policies of the time and Lysenkoism but rarely look at their own disastrous agricultural management during the same period.

  369. @Seraphim

    Deeds or birth, it is the same underlying mentality.

    No it’s not. Islam stresses ‘guidance’ (Hidaya) which is freely available to all. It’s a far cry from the elitism of Hinduism (Knowledge belongs solely to the Brahmin caste) and Judaism (God will spare gentiles, but they will always be lesser in His eyes). Islam is anything but elitist.

    ‘We’ are special,

    Via guidance and not birth.

    In fact Muslims were justifying their ‘specialness’ by their descendance from Abraham, through his ‘first born’ Ishmael. Competition for precedence.

    This may come as a shock to you, but the vast majority of Muslims are not Arabs and can therefore not claim descent to Abraham. Your knowledge of Islam seems stuck in the 7th century.

  370. Metropole says:
    @Seraphim

    Yusuf Ali
    “Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors”.

    There doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with this. That was written around 700 AD but it is still true today.

    If there was no Islam where would mankind be today in terms of belief in God and following his commandments? Most other nations seem to have given up on religion as a guiding force and it is the Muslims that are slammed for sticking to their beliefs. Observe this thread where women wearing clothes is considered scandalous.

    How many People of the Book (Jews and Christians) follow the teachings of their own religion? Aren’t things like abortion, extra marital sex, converting churches into nightclubs etc. transgressions?

    Those People of the Book who stick to their faith are not the target of the condemnation.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  371. Metropole says:
    @Seraphim

    Deeds or birth, it is the same underlying mentality. ‘We’ are special, ‘we’ uniquely know the truth, ‘we’ alone occupy the high moral ground, which makes ‘us’ the judges and punishers of the ‘others’ who are not with ‘us’ (therefore against ‘us’) with license to kill, enslave, plunder.

    You seem to be talking about George Bush.

    Far from being exclusionary, this is what the Quran says:

    Quran 2:136

    Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).”

    In fact Muslims were justifying their ‘specialness’ by their descendance from Abraham, through his ‘first born’ Ishmael. Competition for precedence.

    There’s no concept of specialness in Islam although some Muslims may appear smug, which is a human weakness. Pride and arrogance are condemned as among the worst sins. Muslims, like everyone else, are subject to being judged and sent to heaven or hell based on their actions.

    Not only are most Muslims not Arabs, but most Arabic speaking Muslims are not descendants of the original Arabs either. People of countries like Egypt, Iraq, Syria were non-Arabs who adopted the language.

    Since you mentioned Ishmael, let me show you the commonality between the Bible and Quran. After the birth of Isaac Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael and left them in the desert. When they were dying of thirst they found a well. According to Muslim tradition the place they were left was Mecca and Abraham and Ishmael were the ones who built the Kaaba. The well is still there, called Zamzam and millions drink from it.

    After Abraham and Ishmael, for centuries Mecca was a place of pilgrimage and at some point it became a center for idol worship, which is how Prophet Muhammad found it when he was born and grew up there.

    Psalm 84

    5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
    6 As they pass through the Valley of Baka, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools. They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.

    Quran 3:96

    The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings.

    Genesis 21

    14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.

    15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went off and sat down about a bowshot away, for she thought, “I cannot watch the boy die.” And as she sat there, she[c] began to sob.

    17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

    19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.

    20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  372. Seraphim says:

    Who are the ‘People’ of the Book? And which ‘Book’? By Book Mahomedans understand the Koran, the summation of all the Books of the Jews and Christians, confirming them.
    But in reality the Mahomedans deny that the Scriptures of the Jews (which announced the Incarnation of the Son of God) and of the Christians (which testify for the Incarnation) as they are in use (improperly called ‘the Bible’, when ‘Biblia’ means the ‘Books’ =Scriptures) and were extensively in use when Mahomed was allegedly perusing them in exactly the same form as they are today, are the ‘Book’ (which is at variance with anything that the ‘Biblia’ clearly assert, but claiming that it reproduces it faithfully).
    Nobody ever saw that ‘book’ in whose name Mahomed purports to judge and condemn to hell the Jews and Christians who perversely ‘corrupted’,’falsified’ it and strayed from its message and commandments.
    The Christians who stick to their faith – who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God, descended from Heaven for the salvation of Mankind through Baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit for forgiveness of sins – are the target of the harshest condemnation by the Mahomedans.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  373. @Metropole

    Those People of the Book who stick to their faith are not the target of the condemnation.

    And surely, of the People of the Book there are some who keep faith with God and that which is sent down to you and that which was sent down to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Signs of God for a small price. Indeed, their reward is with their Lord. Certainly, God is swift in account. [Qur’an 3: 199]

    • Agree: Metropole
  374. @Seraphim

    By Book Mahomedans understand the Koran

    No, not at all.

    al-Kitab is “The Book,” referring to the record of the Word of God, to whomever it was sent. The widespread understanding is that this implies the Torah, Psalms, and Gospel, though a more comprehensive perspective incorporates all divine knowledge granted to humankind throughout time, from the dawn of man until his end.

    • Replies: @Talha
  375. Seraphim says:
    @Metropole

    Well, it is the contest with the Jews about who had precedence, Isaac of Ishmael.

    Genesis 17:20-21:
    “And concerning Ismael, behold, I have heard thee, and, behold, I have blessed him, and will increase him and multiply him exceedingly; twelve nations shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 BUT I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH ISAAC, whom Sarrha shall bear to thee at this time, in the next year”.
    We know from the ‘Bible’ the names of the rulers of those twelve nations, who “…inhabit the lands which are between Euphrates and the Red Sea, the name of which country is Nabathæa” (named after the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth).
    The Koran counter:
    Sura 2:125:
    “And as We made the Home an ingathering for mankind and a (place of) security, and take to yourselves Ibrahim’s station for a place of prayer. And We covenanted with Ibrahim (Abraham) and Ismail, (Ishmael) (saying), “Purify My Home for the circumambulators, and the consecrators, and the ones often bowing down and prostrating themselves.”
    Sura 6:86-87:
    “86. And Isma’il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas’a (Elisha), and Yunus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).
    87. And also some of their fathers and their progeny and their brethren, We chose them, and We guided them to a Straight Path”.

    The ‘Valley of Baca’ of Psalm 84 was identified with the ‘Valley of Rephaim’ near Jerusalem and had nothing to do with Mecca. Abraham’s founding of ‘Makkah’ is a pure invention in the context of Jewish-Mahomedan contest of precedence. Anyhow, the ‘desert of Beersheba’ where Hagar wandered with Ishmael is in Negev. The Desert of Paran where Ishmael lived according to Genesis is in Sinai, quite far from Hijaz. Muslim oral ‘traditions’ that identify Baka, Beersheba, Paran with Hijaz are pure bunkum.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Metropole
  376. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    “The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], ‘We make no distinction between any of His messengers.’ And they say, ‘We hear and we obey. Grant us Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return.’” (2:285)

    This is basic level Islam 101 – little kids memorize this stuff using songs:

    What is interesting is what I studied with my teachers regarding the ruling in the Hanafi school; if you come across any of the previous scriptures, in the exact language and original form as it was revealed and you can ascertain that with conviction, you can recite it in the daily prayers just as you would Qur’an and your prayer would be completely valid. I’m not sure what the other schools rule on this case, it is a very subtle (and possibly only a theoretical) issue.

    Wa salaam.

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
  377. @Seraphim

    Another perspective:

    Locating Paran

    You’ll note that other Christian scholars do not speak with the same degree of certainty as you regarding these locations.

    In any event, Christians are regularly revising their knowledge of Biblical locations:

    http://realmountsinai.com/

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  378. Metropole says:

    There’s very interesting and persuasive research indicating that Mount Sinai is actually in Saudi Arabia. Instead of crossing the Red Sea Moses and the Israelites crossed the Gulf of Aqaba. If true, then the mountain, Jebel al Lawz, is the actual Mount Sinai.

    Route:

  379. Metropole says:
    @Seraphim

    Well, it is the contest with the Jews about who had precedence, Isaac of Ishmael.

    You’re probably thinking of the Biblical account of Isaac and his sons Jacob and Esau. Isaac preferred Esau while his wife, Rebekah, favored Jacob.

    Isaac grew old and became blind. He called his son Esau and directed him to procure some venison for him, in order to receive Isaac’s blessing. While Esau was hunting, Jacob, after listening to his mother’s advice, deceived his blind father by misrepresenting himself as Esau and thereby obtained his father’s blessing, such that Jacob became Isaac’s primary heir and Esau was left in an inferior position.

    There’s no such concept of precedence in Islam that I know of. In Islam it is intention that matters, so the idea that Isaac can be deceived into blessing Jacob when he intended to bless Esau is strange.

    No one is saying that Ishmael had precedence over Isaac. In the Quran, same as in the Bible, it is Isaac, Jacob and their progeny who were blessed with dozens or maybe hundreds of prophets. But with Jesus Isaac’s line ended. We know what happened to Jesus. After him there were no prophets for over 600 years.

    For the last messenger God switched to Ishmael’s line, Prophet Muhammad.

  380. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    Irrespective of the fact that the location of Mount Sinai at Jebel al-Lawuz is conjectural, it is still over 1000 Km from Makkah. The biblical ‘Desert of Paran’ is contiguous to the ‘Desert of Beersheba’. It was in ‘Arabia’, but ancient Arabia was not Saudi Arabia!
    There is absolutely no evidence of any kind that Abraham or Ishmael went anywhere south of Midian. Mecca is nowhere documented before the 4th century AD, at the earliest, and it was never a city of any importance (no archaeological evidence either of its existence). The early islamic ‘history’ and its origin in Judeo-Christian sects happened in the north-western part of the Arabian Peninsula, in Arabia Petrensis/Nabathea, the historical abode of the Ishmaelite ‘great nation’.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  381. Metropole says:

    Since we’re talking about someone who lived 4,000 years ago all we can hope to prove is whether a journey is possible or not. We cannot say with certainty that he did or did not make the journey. If it is possible then Abraham could have made the journey. If it is impossible then he would not have made it.

    It is known that Abraham travelled from Ur in present day Iraq to Egypt, a distance of over 2,000 km, and then back to Canaan. The distance from Jerusalem to Mecca is under 1,500 km. So, yes, Abraham could have travelled to Mecca if he wanted to.

  382. @brabantian

    Marine LePen could have used that banner.

  383. @Seraphim

    There is absolutely no evidence of any kind that Abraham or Ishmael went anywhere south of Midian.

    Well, Christian scholars themselves say otherwise — as may be deduced from the evidence at the linked article.

    You also impose upon the existence of Mecca a standard that is entirely unnecessary to meet — namely, that it had to have borne the characteristics of a “city of importance.” No, Mecca did not have to meet such a standard. It merely had to serve, originally, as a site of veneration, one whose significance did not have to be widely known for centuries given the prevailing polytheism/animism of the region.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  384. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    ‘Some’ Christian scholars say otherwise. The ones you quote, apart from the fact that they were writing 100+ years ago, are more cautious than you. Apart from the fact that the ‘Arabia’ that the ancient writers talked was always Arabia Petrensis, when they talk about Paran they qualify their assertions with ‘may have been’, ‘probably’, ‘it may with greater probability be identified’, ‘but the precise location is unknown’. Simple ‘possibility’ that Abraham went south is not a proof that he actually did.

    Recent Christian scholars, based on recent research, like John Wansbrough, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook (and all the ‘revisionist school of Islamic Studies’) demonstrated beyond doubt that the historical context in which Mahomed worked under a strong Jewish influence and reflecting the intra-Christian disputes raging at the time, is definitely northern Arabia (and a largely Christianized Arabia at that – Yemen was a Christian Kingdom by the 6th century) in close contact with Syria, Palestine, Persia, and that the ‘Islamic historiography’ is unreliable and biased.
    The problem with Mecca is not whether it was an important city or place of worship, but that it was not what the Mahomedan traditions made out of it (its descriptions do not match the conditions prevailing in the region, but match the ones prevailing in northern Arabia), if it was at all! We know nothing about the place with anything approaching reasonable certainty before the conquests (before Islam, that’s it).
    So, “Bakkah” where “the first House was set apart unto mankind” by Abraham and Ishmael was a place in the ”Valley of the Baka”, in the ‘Desert of Beersheba’, or in the ‘Desert of Pharan’. The Armenian polymath Anania Shirakatsi (Anania of Shirak) who lived between 620-685, left a ‘Geography’ in which he talks about region “Pharanitis, where the town of Pharan [is located], which I think the Arabs call Mecca” “…and Pharanitis, which is foolishly called the home of Abraham”.
    Or was it the ‘Sakhrah al-Musharrafah’, The Foundation Stone’, in the center of the Dome of the Rock, deemed to be the place where God created the world and the first human, Adam, the site where Abraham attempted to sacrifice his son, the place where God’s divine presence is manifested more than in any other place, towards which Jews turn during prayer, and the place where from Mahomed started his ‘Night Journey’ to heaven to speak with Allah, towards which Mahomed himself turned during prayers, before Allah suddenly told him to turn towards Mecca?

  385. Simple ‘possibility’ that Abraham went south is not a proof that he actually did.

    Nor is it proof that he did not.

    John Wansbrough, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook (and all the ‘revisionist school of Islamic Studies’) demonstrated beyond doubt

    Uhm … No.

    Wansborough’s theory concerning the development of The Qur’an has been undermined in the last decade by radiocarbon analyses of the oldest known Qur’an manuscript:

    https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2015/07/quran-manuscript-22-07-15.aspx

    Crone and Cook themselves tossed out much of their original hypotheses advanced in Hagarism, and the vast majority of Islamic Studies scholars do not regard the text as an authoritative analysis of Islam’s origins, particularly given its contemptuous treatment of Islamic source material.

    Wansborough, in his very own review of their work, wrote:

    “… most, if not all, [of the sources] have been or can be challenged on suspicion of inauthenticity … The material is upon occasion misleadingly represented … My reservations here, and elsewhere in this first part of the book, turn upon what I take to be the authors’ methodological assumptions, of which the principal must be that a vocabulary of motives can be freely extrapolated from a discrete collection of literary stereotypes composed by alien and mostly hostile observers, and thereupon employed to describe, even interpret, not merely the overt behaviour but also intellectual and spiritual development of the helpless and mostly innocent actors. Where even the sociologist fears to tread, the historian ought not with impunity be permitted to go.”

    However, there is certainly merit in historical revisionism, particularly with respect to the integrity of myriad hadith and athar (narrative concerning the companions and successors). Where Wansborough and others direct their attention to this subject matter, their conclusions may warrant a closer look.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Seraphim
  386. @AnonStarter

    Oops.

    Wansbrough, not Wansborough.

  387. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    The ‘possibility’ that a claim
    The radiocarbon dating proves only the date of the death of the animal who provided the hide, not the date of writing. Islamic Studies scholars (among them Saud al-Sarhan, Director of Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh) contested the datation.

    “Experts doubt oldest Qur’an claim”
    Saudi Gazette report – Saturday, 05 September 2015 – 21 Dhul-Qada 1436 H

    [MORE]

    “MAKKAH — Historians and manuscript experts have cast doubt on the credibility of the recent Birmingham University claim that it had discovered the oldest copy of the Qur’an…
    Quoting the experts, Makkah daily said on Sunday that the manuscript might have possibly been written after the time of the Prophet (pbuh) due to several factors.
    Experts contend that during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) there was no separation between the Surahs (chapters) in red colors, no red ink was used in writing “Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem” with which a Surah begins and that the holy book itself was not put in its today’s order.
    Abdul Sattar Al-Halouji, a manuscript expert, said the university’s claim at this particular time might just be a ploy to seek publicity.
    “It is not possible to ascertain that the parchments were written close to the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The university should have examined the ink not the hide on which it was written,” he said.
    The manuscript might possibly be from the time of Othman Bin Affan who became Caliph many years after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). During the time of the Prophet (pbuh), the Qur’an was not organized or put in its present day form. Also there were no colors used,” an archeologist said.
    Abbas Tashkandi, another manuscript expert, said it was clear that the university examined the hide not the writing. “The hide may be old but the writing may be new,” he said.
    Tahskandi said the manuscript might be from the time of Caliph Othman Bin Affan and not the Prophet (pbuh). He also said the manuscript might have been written in Makkah which was famous for its tanneries.
    Abdullah Al-Sharif, a historian, said the coloring and the dotting were not known at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) or the rightly-guided caliphs. “They belong to the Umayyad era between Hijra years 41-132,” he said.
    @https://web.archive.org/web/20150906130646/http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentid=20150727251595

    Apart from the fact that ‘the vast majority of Islamic Studies scholars do not regard the text as an authoritative analysis of Islam’s origins’, they are happy to discard the hadiths that shed another light on the origins of the ‘revelation’ of Mahomed (the role of Kadijah and Waraqah ibn Nawfal), which are consonant with the revisionist theses (actually they are the basis of the revisionist theses).
    Cook and Crone may have dissociated from some hazardous assertions made 32 years ago at the beginning of a research that progressed steadily since, but not from the core of it (the professional study of early Islamic history changed essentially between ca 1975 and 1990 – Robert G. Hoyland, a pupil of Patricia Crone, comes to mind – and referring to the book reviews from 1978 is misleading). To the chagrin of ‘Islamic Studies scholars’, they “made no manifest effort to ”repudiate” their juvenile findings in the book”, and made manifest declarations that “they had not done it and cater no plans to do so”. That not because of any historical inaccuracies, but because it ”maligns the faith of more than a billion people” and view it as an ‘anti-Islam’ conspiracy (generally Zionist)! Not to say anything of the wholesale dismissal of any non-Islamic sources (Byzantine, Syriac, Armenian, Jewish, archaeological, etc) by the said ‘scholars'(who accuse the ‘revisionists’ of ignorance of the Muslim sources!).

  388. “Experts doubt oldest Qur’an claim”

    Indeed, their claims should not be dismissed out of hand.

    Tahskandi said the manuscript might be from the time of Caliph Othman Bin Affan and not the Prophet (pbuh).

    That’s a perfectly reasonable hypothesis given the available data, but it’s also one that still undermines Wansbrough’s thesis — namely, that The Qur’an was developed during the 2nd-3rd centuries A.H. I see in your cited article that Tahskandi isn’t alone in drawing that conclusion.

    So even if it’s only the animal skin we’re dating, there’s still no word from the cited experts that supports your contentions about the theses of your favored revisionists.

    Apart from the fact that ‘the vast majority of Islamic Studies scholars do not regard the text as an authoritative analysis of Islam’s origins’, they are happy to discard the hadiths that shed another light on the origins of the ‘revelation’ of Mahomed (the role of Kadijah and Waraqah ibn Nawfal), which are consonant with the revisionist theses (actually they are the basis of the revisionist theses).

    No, this hasn’t been established. Most of those scholars don’t dismiss at face value ahadith concerning Khadijah and Warqah ibn Nawfal. Sure, they’re not likely to find them “consonant with” the thesis of Hagarism, but that’s because Cook and Crone predicate their hypothesis upon a personal interpretation of those reports which remains, to this day, unsupported by the totality of available evidence. Even Cook and Crone themselves admit that their work is simply a hypothesis.

    referring to the book reviews from 1978 is misleading

    Not particularly, no.

    In fact, Wansbrough’s critique likely inspired Cook and Crone to eventually discard many of their presumptions. Cook and Crone’s primary contribution was to advance further opportunity for revisionist theses, which, in my opinion, is a good thing, even if I disagree with their hypothesis and conclusions.

    You also assume incorrectly that my reference to Islamic Studies scholars is restricted to Muslims. No, I’m not the Muslim corollary to Crone and Cook. As I mentioned earlier,

    … there is certainly merit in historical revisionism, particularly with respect to the integrity of myriad hadith and athar (narrative concerning the companions and successors). Where Wansborough and others direct their attention to this subject matter, their conclusions may warrant a closer look.

  389. Seraphim says:

    You seem to be unaware of the research in the 30 years after ‘Hagarism’. You would have been aware that the essential thesis was confirmed again and again. Patricia Crone was active until her death in 2015, publishing books and articles in which she refined and developed the ‘revisionist’ thesis, that of a pivotal role of Judaism, Judaizing Christian sects, Gnosticism and Northern Arabia in the formation and formulation of Mahomed’s worldview with its inveterate hostility towards Trinitarian Christianity, updating it as new data emerged.
    The idea that she ‘discarded’ many of her presuppositions is for Muslim audiences. It is a tactic that they frequently use when confronted with inconvenient truths: ‘even Christians discard, dismiss, their own presumptions…’. It is a typically sophistic tactic. Attack minor details, ‘prove’ them untrue and then concluding that the whole thesis is untrue. And that would ‘confirm’ the deep seated conviction of Muslims that Christians are perverse liars hell bent to ‘harm Islam’ and induce Muslims to apostatize. That she didn’t ‘discard’ much is perfectly illustrated by the angry demands that she made ”manifest efforts to ”repudiate” their juvenile findings in the book”, by the furious demands (seasoned with threats of violence) that BBC Channel 4 withdraw the documentary of Tom Holland ‘Islam the untold story’ (which features interviews with Patricia Crone) because it “makes a mockery of impartial and objective broadcasting” and “broadcast lies”, and apologise. In other words: ‘how dare you’, ‘shut up’ or else, a feature that we became all too familiar with. Revisionism is construed as an insult to the Prophet.

  390. You seem to be unaware of the research in the 30 years after ‘Hagarism’. You would have been aware that the essential thesis was confirmed again and again.

    Perhaps you’d care to provide us some actual references to said confirmation.

    As for censorship, I’ve never been an advocate of it, so that particular argument of yours is just another straw man.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Seraphim
  391. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Prof. Hoyland (who was a protege of the late Prof. Crone) published the excellent “Seeing Islam as Others Saw It”, which is a book that is essentially a compendium of early non-Muslim source texts, and stated in it that “…non-Muslim sources cannot provide a coplete and coherent account of the history of Early Islam, even less can they support an alternative version of its development.”

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  392. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    All right, take Talha’s advise and read Hoyland’s “Seeing Islam as Others Saw It”, without his subtle suggestion that even ‘protegees’ of Crone admit that she was wrong and that we cannot write an accurate history of Early Islam from non-Muslim sources (the underlying suggestion being that they were biased against Islam, even ‘seething with anti-Jewishness’ – being mainly Christian sources of course). The ‘alternative version’ of the development of Islam is, of course, the undeniable strong Jewish influence upon it and the alliance of Jews with Arabs for the liberation of the Holy Land, the reconstruction of the Temple and chastisement of the ‘wicked one’ (Edom/Rome), rejoicing at the ‘great terror’ that the ‘kingdom of Ishmael’ will unleash against the ‘sons of Esau’.
    Of course we cannot have a ‘complete and coherent’ reconstruction of the history of that period from non-Muslim sources alone, as we cannot do it from Muslim sources alone either.

  393. @Talha

    Shukran for reminding me, I recall your reference to Hoyland once before.

    Before I got to your post, I had taken it upon myself to search for material that might corroborate Seraphim’s statement to effect that the “essential thesis” of Hagarism has been “confirmed again and again,” and I saw some references to Hoyland’s work, but no evidence from either him or anyone else that Seraphim is correct in so saying.

    I’m pleased to see that Seraphim is now adopting Hoyland’s position that “the testimony of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian writers can be used alongside that of Muslim authors to furnish us with an enriched and expanded vision of the history of the Middle East in Early Islamic times, to offer us new perspectives on its character and to suggest to us new directions for its study.” That’s quite an improvement on stumping for Hagarism, and I congratulate him for his courage.

    Seraphim tells us there’s an “undeniable strong Jewish influence” on the development of Islam, a position which obviously does not hold Islam to be a continuum from Adam until The Last Day, inclusive of, but not limited to, the great prophecy and wisdom of Moses and Jesus ‘alaihimus-salaam.

    Now we’ll probably hear some kind of explanation as to why the incorporation of Jewish scripture and the apotheosis of Jesus aren’t evidence of an “undeniably strong Jewish influence” in Christianity, as one must distinguish Jesus ‘alaihis-salaam from the undeniably Jewish ethos into which he was born and raised.

    I’d agree that Jesus transcended the Jews.

    Beyond this, we probably have some irreconcilable differences.

    was-salaam.

    • Agree: Talha
  394. Seraphim says:

    If you believe that I ‘adopted Hoyland’s position’ because of your blandishments, so be it if that ‘pleases’ you. What I do not understand is why my supposed change of position would have required ‘courage’. No ‘revisionist’ ever threatened anyone who did not toe their line (they were and are threatened, as you admit). OTOH, use of Muslim sources, far from discrediting ‘Hagarism’, only reinforced its basic theme, that Islam started as a sort of Judeo-Christian cum Arab messianic “Palestine Liberation Front”, with a programmatic anti-Trinitarian Christian agenda. One has only to look at the numerous Islamic ‘refutations’ of Christianity to observe that they swallow wholesale all the Jewish ‘refutations’ (Jesus was a simple preacher, Christian Scriptures are falsified, Paul was a swindler who falsified the ‘true’ message of Jesus, Constantine ‘imposed’ Roman paganism in the guise of ‘Christianity’, etc.).
    And I should not provide you with ‘links’ and references for things that are in the public domain (most of them on-line and of easy access) but suggest that you read (rather study) them yourself.

  395. What I do not understand is why my supposed change of position would have required ‘courage’.

    Perhaps you’re correct, since you insist upon the assertion that Hoyland’s approach confirms the thesis of Hagarism, a claim which — as I pointed out previously — is not supported by either Hoyland himself or any other scholar in the field of Islamic Studies.

    Actual courage would require academic honesty, something you have yet to demonstrate.

  396. Seraphim says:

    I wonder whether you have any academic qualifications to talk so cockily about ‘academic honesty’, when you clearly haven’t read Hoyland’s book. Neither ‘Hagarism’, I suspect.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  397. @Seraphim

    My qualifications for identifying lies aren’t merely academic, they’re established.

    Had you yourself actually read the texts, you would never talk such nonsense — not unless you wanted to bamboozle your audience.

    Incidentally, the burden of proof is yours, not mine.

  398. From Hoyland’s “New documentary texts and the early Islamic state”, published in Oxford University’s Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies:

    The problem of the historiography of this period is certainly a very challenging one, and will remain so while no accepted criteria exist to verify the Muslim literary tradition. And yet there are grounds for optimism. Firstly, we do have a number of bodies of evidence — especially non-Muslim sources, papyri, inscriptions and archaeological excavations — that can serve as a useful external referent and whose riches are only just beginning to be exploited in a systematic manner.[73] Secondly, the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some have claimed. For example, many of the deities, kings and tribes of the pre-Islamic Arabs that are depicted by ninth-century Muslim historians also feature in the epigraphic record,[74] as do many of the rulers and governors of the early Islamic state. This makes it difficult to see how historical scenarios that require for their acceptance a total discontinuity in the historical memory of the Muslim community — such as that Muhammad did not exist, the Quran was not written in Arabic, Mecca was originally in a different place etc. — can really be justified. Many of these scenarios rely on absence of evidence, but it seems a shame to make such a recourse when there are so many very vocal forms of material evidence still waiting to be studied.

    Hoyland not only doesn’t confirm the thesis of Hagarism, he’s flat out telling us it can’t be justified.

    • Thanks: Talha
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  399. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    Hoyland couldn’t stray too much from the political correct line of not offending Muslims. Not to cater for ‘Muslim sensitivities’ (extremely touchy when the ‘originality’ of Islam – and especially its superiority in regards to Judaism and Christianity – is questioned) when ‘Islamophobia’ was elevated almost the same status as ‘Antisemitism’, could potentially be prejudicial for carrier advancement (if not worse – accusations of ‘hate speach/racism/orientalism’, student protests, death threats), hence his guarded language. Anyhow, the illustrative epigraphic material is mostly in provenance from Northern Arabia.

    How serious can be the critics of ‘Hagarism’ is illustrated by the triumphant quotation by a (Muslim) purfendor of Tom Holland’s ‘uninformed’ TV show, of Petra Sijpestein, Professor of Arabic at Leiden University, who remarks that: “In the writings of 12 years after the death of Muhammad, Muslims are referred to as a separate religious group, first using the term muhajiroun, migrants who had left hearth and home with a purpose, or Saracens, descendants of SARAH and Abraham”! Really!
    So, who were the Saracens?
    Ptolemy’s ‘Geography’ describes Sarakēnḗ (Σαρακηνή) as a region in the northern Sinai Peninsula. Ptolemy also mentions a people called the Sarakēnoí (οἱ Σαρακηνοί). The name is derived from sharkiyyin or sariqin ‘marauder, plunderer’.
    According to the Church historian Sozomenus (5th century), “This is the tribe which took its origin and had its name from Ishmael, the son of Abraham; and the ancients called them Ishmaelites after their progenitor. As their mother Hagar was a slave, they afterward, to conceal the opprobrium of their origin, assumed the name of Saracens, as if they were descended from Sarah, the wife of Abraham. Such being their origin, they practice circumcision like the Jews, refrain from the use of pork, and observe many other Jewish rites and customs… Some of their tribe, afterward happening to come in contact with the Jews, gathered from them the facts of their true origin, returned to their kinsmen, and are inclined to the Hebrew customs and laws. From that time on, until now, many of them regulate their lives according to the Jewish precepts.”

    Shalom aleichem.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  400. @Seraphim

    Hoyland couldn’t stray too much from the political correct line of not offending Muslims.

    It would be interesting to ask him directly if this is so, but I don’t think you’re exactly prepared to accept any answer that might give the lie to your claim. After all, what’s to stop you from saying that his denial of this isn’t also motivated by fear of Muslims?

    Ah, the comfort of an unfalsifiable claim. When all else fails, innuendo saves the day.

    Doesn’t it, Seraphim?

    • LOL: Talha
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