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Probably because I’m reading the perspectives of ancient philosophers such as Plato who had very specific and clear views of human excellence, I’m struck now by the rise of brashly demotic artistic forms, and how they push their way into our public space. Consider the rise of country rap, which is one of the more bizarre cultural syntheses to arise out of the dialectic discourse which permeates American society. Country music has traditionally been dominated by rural white Americans, and reflects a conservative ethos which is notionally aligned with traditional values. Rap, in contrast, emerges out of a hip-hop urban milieu which is oppositional to broader American society, distrusting authority rather than celebrating it.
When the Moonshine Bandits “We’re all country” came on my Spotify I was curious about Sarah Ross rapping about how she’s from Jersey, but still country. And, there are explicit shout-outs to blue collar life. They seemed to be owning a denigrated lifestyle and class background. So I looked up the video. The aesthetic was shocking to me. To be entirely frank, it seems to celebrate a gritty slovenliness as the best of all things. Eternal Budweiser, mac & cheese, and poor muscle tone. Many hip-hop and bro country music videos are gauche in their crass superficiality, but at least ultimately there’s often a nod to an aspiration toward excellence, in wealth, in accruing attractive females, in being in shape. You don’t see any of this in the above video. It’s a valorization of the demotic, the pedestrian. Average looking people coalescing together to get inebriated. No symposium, that.
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The decline in country music over the last decade has been precipitous. And depressing. What I have appreciated about country music is that it is one of the few genres of music that sings about a wide spectrum of life — there were songs on the top of the billboard about going to Church, being a Dad, getting in a fight with your brother, struggling with alcoholism, dealing with the loss of a loved one, sending those you care about off to war, how great your dog is — and really a thousand other things. It was a genre that told stories. That was never true for most other popular genres– Pop and Hip Hop never amounted to much more than songs about love, sex, or dancing. But as country music has become more popified over the last decade this is no longer true. Country songs are now about the same thing all the other songs are about–just with a different setting.
I suppose Moonshine Bandits are the end result of this process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z529z1OZc9k&app=desktop
Razib, I get around a lot more than you do. These people are real and they’re EVERYWHERE.
Some of them apparently learned how to get rich representing them, that’s all.
Why be aspirational rather than realistic and defending your own rather than pretending that your own is rich (or smart)?
These folk are real and they’re saying it’s okay not to have a nice truck or a huge farm.
Also, “The Symposium” is no symposium as moderns might imagine it. It was closer to a bacchanal and it’s subject matter was the third rail limit of American Morality.
So much for the mixing of the worst. If I had the skill, I would mix 80s new wave with early renaissance polyphony.
The Spawn of Kid Rock and Uncle Kracker? Although, they did claim to be “OGs.”
I suppose Moonshine Bandits are the end result of this process.Replies: @John Massey
There are still a few good ones around, Trevor.
Which side of the continuum is country rap on: country or rap? Answer: rap.
In the popular — demotic, even — mind, mediocrity is always associated with the white underclass. If someone wants to “sound stupid” they put on a Southern/country accent. Black blight is always romanticized as heroic struggle (any Hollywood movie about courageous rappers) or at least cozy poverty (“Good Times”). White blight is portrayed as just plain nasty. In this video, rap is what dresses up the poor rubes and makes them marketable and entertaining. They could never hymn their lowdown whiteness to a large audience without the trappings of black entertainment to freshen up their un-aesthetic.
Life is good, why change anything?
country + rap = crap
I blame this cult of “realness” on an understandable human need to have some sort of reason to feel self-worth even though you’re far less attractive and wealthy than the fictional people on the TV screen in your living room. They say to themselves something like: “those people may be prettier, richer, smarter and live far more interesting lives but I’m real” and then they go completely overboard with their self-conscious and militant “realness”.
It’s yet another case of letting your enemies define you. It’s like Stormfront types who become dress-up Nazis because Hollywood told them only Nazis have a problem with Hollywood.
Although really on the opposite end of the musical spectrum, I’d argue the rise of The Smiths in the 1980s was in some ways the beginning of “anti-aspirational” popular music. In the sense that plenty of rock musicians sung about getting laid, but Morrissey was the first popular musician to sing about not getting laid. This was a tremendous shift, because there was a large population of socially awkward young virgins who were really not being marketed to by pop stars at all.
I guess it comes down to what you want in music. Do you want to have a glamorous fantasy which in no way reflects your lived reality? Or do you want to have an affirmation that your life experiences are in fact normal?
Related to the video linked above, I’ve been watching some “zef” videos recently, which are somewhat analogous, in that it tends to be White Afrikaner hip hop. Die Antwoord is mostly horrendous (really good at putting videos together, but pretty bad at songraft) but Jack Parrow is pretty damn good. He also looks like a slovenly mess in essentially every video. 🙂
But isn't he asexual? No big self-denial when you're missing the basic primal urge.Replies: @Karl Zimmerman
Whence derives this notion that socially awkward people want to buy music about socially awkward people? Some do, yes, but that market was already tapped by aspirational music; after all, they have the most to aspire to, don't they? People already having sex certainly don't have a greater need to hear music about having sex.
Similar to the Insane Clown Posse and their Juggalo fans.
I have to say, it reminds me to some degree of geek culture’s celebration of social ineptitude–though without the aspects of mastering science and technology, of course. The rejects have gotten microphones, and they are trumpeting their rejection of your values.
While I guess it’s bad in the long term, I can’t entirely blame these guys. Everyone poops on them, they might as well strike back.
I guess it comes down to what you want in music. Do you want to have a glamorous fantasy which in no way reflects your lived reality? Or do you want to have an affirmation that your life experiences are in fact normal?
Related to the video linked above, I've been watching some "zef" videos recently, which are somewhat analogous, in that it tends to be White Afrikaner hip hop. Die Antwoord is mostly horrendous (really good at putting videos together, but pretty bad at songraft) but Jack Parrow is pretty damn good. He also looks like a slovenly mess in essentially every video. :)Replies: @Dain, @Cagey Beast, @guest
“Morrissey was the first popular musician to sing about not getting laid…”
But isn’t he asexual? No big self-denial when you’re missing the basic primal urge.
“Morrissey was the first popular musician to sing about not getting laid.”
That is ridiculous. At least one part of The Rolling Stones’ “Satisfaction” is about this (although in that case he might come back next week?)
I am a sucker for Toynbee and big picture history in general. Even though he’s got some serious flaws.
Toynbee would not be surprised to see the internal proletariat celebrating their lifestyle, nor that a decadent civilization would find it attractive. Though I don’t think we’re close to collapse. Plenty of ruin left.
But a Toynbee angle on that video is my reaction on how to understand it. (Obviously also applies to rap as well, though as you note rap glamorizes money. But both deliberately flaunt their lifestyle to shock the middle/rich classes and have a coarse, but seductive attraction to upper class, which is very Toynbee).
I guess it comes down to what you want in music. Do you want to have a glamorous fantasy which in no way reflects your lived reality? Or do you want to have an affirmation that your life experiences are in fact normal?
Related to the video linked above, I've been watching some "zef" videos recently, which are somewhat analogous, in that it tends to be White Afrikaner hip hop. Die Antwoord is mostly horrendous (really good at putting videos together, but pretty bad at songraft) but Jack Parrow is pretty damn good. He also looks like a slovenly mess in essentially every video. :)Replies: @Dain, @Cagey Beast, @guest
No I’d say Morrissey and the rest of the Smiths were entirely the opposite of this trend of militant “realness”. Roseanne Barr and hillbilly rap are shouting “you can’t handle my realness!” while the Smiths were saying “I can’t handle your realness”. Wallowing in your own filth and rising above the filth that surrounds you are two entirely different acts.
“Real” is probably the most abstract, all-encompassing code word for crappy. It’s supposed to deodorize anything it touches. Its academic counterpart is “authentic.” Other demotic code words are “honest,” “curvy,” “hard working,” “common sense,” “challenge,” “vibrant.” Actually, vibrancy is sort of the positive/creative counterpart of realness, but it basically means the same thing. A big mosaic of crap.
But isn't he asexual? No big self-denial when you're missing the basic primal urge.Replies: @Karl Zimmerman
Morrissey may be asexual (although I dunno if he describes himself as that any longer, since he’s come out as having had relationships with men and women in the past) but many of his classic songs are about yearning to have someone care for you romantically and knowing (for whatever reason) it seems impossible. So they’re certainly not aromantic.
The roots of “country” music owe much of their beginnings with the textile workers in the towns and cities of the Southern Piedmont. So to some extent, the “urbanization” of “country” could be argued to be a return to roots. An interesting source: Patrick Huber’s Linthead Stomp (from UNC Press).
I am not an expert, but somehow I think the behavioral norms of the “urban” working class would be a lot different today, even if the early country (or blues) performers seem to have enjoyed a good time themselves.
Too true, too true. People who make a big thing of being “real” are the ones obnoxiously putting on some persona they like. “Real” people are the ones that make you glad when they go away; genuine people are the type you’d approach if you needed directions and saw them on the street.
Ethnic balkanization is such a great idea – you can shift all the conflict from the borders to everywhere all at once – much more efficient.
I thought we had hit rock bottom with Kid Rock. I guess not.
This trend has been ongoing since the early 2000s. Not all or probably most country, but I suspect Razib is more knowledgeable about current country, so I’d go with his opinions here 😉 “Redneck Woman” in 2004 was when I first noticed this embrace of debasement pride.
You can see this trajectory with Hank Williams Jr. “Country Boys Can Survive” in the mid eighties has some grit, but “That’s How They Do it Dixie” in early 2000s brought out the worst in him; he is very good friends with Kid Rock, too.
(If I link to one more Jr. video, I’m afraid Ron Unz is going to put me in the doghouse…and I wouldn’t blame him!)
Kinda OT, but the singular force that is Miranda Lambert has been more destructive to country music than brocountry, IMHO. Her voice is like two cats fighting and she is utterly charmless. When the execs said “female singers” were hurting ratings, I strongly suspect this was a euphemism for “Miranda Lambert”.
All music has all been downhill since reaching its peak in the Baroque period: nowhere else to go but down!Replies: @Dahlia, @vinteuil
This trend has been ongoing since the early 2000s. Not all or probably most country, but I suspect Razib is more knowledgeable about current country, so I'd go with his opinions here ;) "Redneck Woman" in 2004 was when I first noticed this embrace of debasement pride.
You can see this trajectory with Hank Williams Jr. "Country Boys Can Survive" in the mid eighties has some grit, but "That's How They Do it Dixie" in early 2000s brought out the worst in him; he is very good friends with Kid Rock, too.
(If I link to one more Jr. video, I'm afraid Ron Unz is going to put me in the doghouse...and I wouldn't blame him!)
Kinda OT, but the singular force that is Miranda Lambert has been more destructive to country music than brocountry, IMHO. Her voice is like two cats fighting and she is utterly charmless. When the execs said "female singers" were hurting ratings, I strongly suspect this was a euphemism for "Miranda Lambert".Replies: @Dahlia, @jamie
Actually, a better comparison would be with “All My Rowdy Friends are Coming Over Tonight” (mid 80s) instead of “Country Boys”. His love of scantily clad women are on display in both videos, but in “Dixie” they are way nastier, while in “Rowdy Friends” they are more fun and have more class.
Country and rap have the same origin, namely the blues, with the exception of hillbilly, western, and various ethnically white influences (Celtic and English popular music, for instance), which all had a separate origin. But mostly country is a form of black delta music, or white-black black southern music, which both whites and blacks played and wrote back before most people know or admit. (What color was Stephen Foster, again?)
Most popular American music, or at least the most popular of popular American music, since the explosion of minstrelsy has been black delta music. Two strains have come to dominate in recent times: city blues and country blues. City blues is jazz and rock and roll, primarily, and country blues was split along racial lines, partly as a gimmick to sell records, into what we call the blues and country. Listen to recordings from the 30s and before and tell me Mississippi John Hurt doesn’t sound country or the acknowledged father of modern country music, Jimmie Rodgers (the Singing Brakeman) doesn’t sound black. Ignoring the yodeling, that is. Think about what race we associate with the banjo, and the indisputable fact that the banjo is African.
Like I said, bluegrass, country and western, and various European antecedents are exceptional. Though all are a part of what we call country music, the wellspring is the same as for rap.
My point was the generic “image” which is historically presented around popular musicians was one of idolization. Men want to be him, and women want to sleep with him (or the inverse, if the star was female). The music was aspirational – about finding love and/or sex, and often (particularly with hip hop as it developed) about being filthy rich.
The inversion of this is pop star as a storyteller of a story that the “average joe” can easily relate to, because the protagonist is presented as a flawed person. Thinking about it further, the tradition within the U.S. pretty dates to the blues originally. Songs of woe to make us think of the bad times in our own lives, and know we are not alone.
In particular, The Smiths were perhaps not “real” insofar as Morrissey in particular cultivated an image in a quite cynical manner. But they were meant from the start to be an ordinary band. From the voice of god (e.g., wiki)…
I guess it comes down to what you want in music. Do you want to have a glamorous fantasy which in no way reflects your lived reality? Or do you want to have an affirmation that your life experiences are in fact normal?
Related to the video linked above, I've been watching some "zef" videos recently, which are somewhat analogous, in that it tends to be White Afrikaner hip hop. Die Antwoord is mostly horrendous (really good at putting videos together, but pretty bad at songraft) but Jack Parrow is pretty damn good. He also looks like a slovenly mess in essentially every video. :)Replies: @Dain, @Cagey Beast, @guest
There are a million songs about heartbreak, which is basically “not getting laid.” Morrissey was prepared by songs like “Mr. Lonely” and “Another Saturday Night,” which, though “aspirational,” were about the socially awkward not getting laid. Who said Morrissey didn’t aspire, anyway? He’s a human and he needs to be loved, just like everybody else does.
Whence derives this notion that socially awkward people want to buy music about socially awkward people? Some do, yes, but that market was already tapped by aspirational music; after all, they have the most to aspire to, don’t they? People already having sex certainly don’t have a greater need to hear music about having sex.
The masses get to be represented and the elites get more reasons to sneer at them. Everybody wins!
But Average Joe wants to idolize. Heroes aren’t for the heroic.
I don’t know why you’d call Morrissey cynical; he’s a good songwriter who’s a bit of a mope by nature but who also laughs in his lyrics about being such a mope. The Smiths were a blend of The Dubliners and Oscar Wilde. The lyrics of their songs told stories in the Irish folk tradition but Morrissey gave them that urbane, “nobody understands me” twist. I don’t think he’s being cynical but rather being tongue in cheek.
“I’m fat and eat BBQ. Deal with it”, or the Brit equivalent, were not the kind of messages The Smiths put out.
I'm actually a pretty big Moz fan, although I'm not so into his solo stuff. When you're that certain kind of teenager who always has their nose in a book, and has no idea how to talk to girls, songs like Ask and Asleep speak to you in a way the conventional popular songs about love and sex do not.
Grunge was just as bad in its origins. Maybe even worse — it was all about low-class whites shooting dope and being “losers.” But at least they were full of angst.
Early rap was pretty gritty, too. It’s about being “genuine.”
There’s something viscerally appealing about the pathetic standing up for and expressing themselves. Sort of a revolutionary spirit.
Of course, when they succeed they begin to behave the same way as the “excellent” people, and next thing you know they’re all about the mansions, private planes and so on.
So I guess now working-class whites are the new trodden-upon masses who defy society by rejecting aspirations and declaring that they like themselves fine. Probably not a good thing for elites. If they don’t care about how the rest of society views them, will they still be susceptible to shaming and guilt tactics? Doubtful.
Morrissey definitely made a clean break with “realness” in his November Spawned A Monster video. I mean, who finds an intact chocolate bar in the middle of the desert? I’d link to the thing but his hambone act is just too much even for me. This middle period of his career is best forgotten. He’s better now that he’s mellowed into a sort urbane Ratko Mladic type guy.
Since you’re reading Plato, I’d love to hear anything you have to say about his stuff. Especially Republic. Especially Books 2-4. Glaucon & Adeimantus are satisfied by Socrates’ response to their challenge. Are you?
And what do you think of Plato’s tripartite conception of the soul (reason/spirit/appetite)?
Go right ahead Razib point and laugh at the poor white trash. It is ok they don’t much like you either. How odd that they actually like their poor white relatives. I am not sure what standard you have in your head, but when I see Sarah Ross “poor muscle tone” is not the first thing that comes to mind. When I hear SuperDuty that seems pretty aspirational to me given its $64,285 MSRP (F-250 SuperDuty King Ranch, Crew Cab, Power Stroke V8), and the approximately half my 22 year working life I have spent on their development programs. I also note that when Sarah sings about her shotgun it is a Benelli $2,999 MSRP (Benelli 828U Engraved, Nickel Plated Receiver 12 Guage Over/Under). While these are not the things I aspire to, and I am glad that my own children prefer Shakespeare and Broadway tunes in these people I see my cousin Tater and my own extended family.
The Bell Curve
Bowling Alone
Coming Apart
I hope you're doing everything you can to wean your cousin Tater away from country rap in favor of Shakespeare & Broadway tunes.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @iffen
The Bell Curve
Bowling Alone
Coming ApartReplies: @Razib Khan, @vinteuil
i wasn’t talking about her. and don’t be such an asshole or i’lll ban you. i understand you think you’re awesome, keep it to yourself.
Secretary problem. I think the mathematical formula is use the first 37% of opportunities to set aspirational level and take the first that is better.
Or as most people do in our uncertain world, use the first 10% to set your aspirational level and take the first opportunity that meets it. Or just settle for what you can immediately get.
They look a bit old to be aspirational or worrying about their waistline, but that shot of the mother was truly shocking.
Is the Morrissey mentioned above the same one who appeared on British TV in his real period with a bunch of flowers in the back of his pants singing ‘Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now’?
And what do you think of Plato's tripartite conception of the soul (reason/spirit/appetite)?Replies: @vinteuil
btw – I don’t ask (merely) out of idle curiosity – there’s a practical angle. I regularly teach Intro Philosophy & Intro Ethics at a small Jesuit university (which shall remain nameless, here) and I make a lot of use of quite a few of the Platonic dialogues – mostly Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Laches, Euthyphro, Gorgias, Meno, & Republic. It would be great if I could direct my students to a post by Razib Khan himself to prove to them that guys more interesting than me still care about all this.
Or as most people do in our uncertain world, use the first 10% to set your aspirational level and take the first opportunity that meets it. Or just settle for what you can immediately get.
They look a bit old to be aspirational or worrying about their waistline, but that shot of the mother was truly shocking.
Is the Morrissey mentioned above the same one who appeared on British TV in his real period with a bunch of flowers in the back of his pants singing 'Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now'?Replies: @Cagey Beast
Is the Morrissey mentioned above the same one who appeared on British TV in his real period with a bunch of flowers in the back of his pants singing ‘Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now’?
That’s the guy. Real realness comes in many forms.
Would you mistake him for Hank William Sr? I doubt it. Yet both were being really real as musicians. Both are much better than the “you can’t handle my realness” faux bottom-dwellers in the opening video.
since perhaps i should make it explicit, the point of this post was not to make fun of lower class people. rather, it was an observation that there’s a tendency in american society to “own” what “is” as somehow meritorious. by analogy, i think it’s immature, rude, and uncivilized to mock obese people. but i hope my obese friends eventually manage to figure out a way to manage their weight, because to not be obese is better for them, and is a better of expression of the best of who they are. but even though this is a common sentiment in society now there’s a counter position which basically asserts that being obese is totally fine, and just as good. all thing equal, i don’t think that that’s so.
being poor, and to a lesser extent working class, results in some unfortunate consequences. even if it’s class-typical, doesn’t mean that it’s OK.
being poor, and to a lesser extent working class, results in some unfortunate consequences. even if it's class-typical, doesn't mean that it's OK.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Dahlia, @Karl Zimmerman
Yes, I agree. It’s not that people should be laughed at or scolded for being poor or less than beautiful, it’s this aggressive demand that we celebrate when people make themselves uglier, act cruder, act militantly stupid towards everyone else. It’s all that I can’t stand.
“aspiration toward excellence, in wealth, in accruing attractive females, in being in shape.”
The female rapping in the video is far more attractive then most women I see at Walmart. She is not overweight and has no tattoos. The male rapper looks like Hank Jr with tattoos.
The explosion of tattoos on women is what offends my aesthetic sensibility.
The Bell Curve
Bowling Alone
Coming ApartReplies: @Razib Khan, @vinteuil
“While these are not the things I aspire to, and I am glad that my own children prefer Shakespeare and Broadway tunes in these people I see my cousin Tater and my own extended family.”
I hope you’re doing everything you can to wean your cousin Tater away from country rap in favor of Shakespeare & Broadway tunes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fPpKVoC7icReplies: @vinteuil
being poor, and to a lesser extent working class, results in some unfortunate consequences. even if it's class-typical, doesn't mean that it's OK.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Dahlia, @Karl Zimmerman
Don’t worry, most of us knew exactly what you were saying and appreciate you exploring these kinds of topics. Love it!
“Coming Apart”
I hope you're doing everything you can to wean your cousin Tater away from country rap in favor of Shakespeare & Broadway tunes.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @iffen
Honestly that Heaven’s Gate suicide cult would be better for Tater than country rap. I don’t think they’re taking new members now though. Maybe Morrissey can have a talk with him? I just want to see the boy happy:
Jeezus - how did Morrissey ever get so old?
How ill white hairs become a fool and jester.
I would qualify this by saying that it is legitimate to rebel against stilted standards such as hairless female bodies and freshly pressed male business suits, but it is not legitimate to abandon all standards.
I would like to add that many people like this are secure in their own “agency,” as Razib would say. There’s a reason why they choose to live on the outskirts of town – they really do like being like this and they wouldn’t change if you gave them the chance. Not sure how many people here grew up around folks like this (we had a specific name for them in the mid-90s that i won’t write here) but i did and it’s a mistake to assume that they aren’t choosing to be like this. Many of them have as much money or more than i do. If they had a LOT more they’d just buy more land, 4 wheelers and trucks. My dad and I just had our yearly “the food is so bad there/why don’t they learn to cook” talk after his upper MI fishing trip. I always remind him that he’s a “rich” liberal and they are cons on welfare but, most importantly, they *like* bad food. They *like* cole slaw. They *like* Mountain Dew. They like Wonder Bread and cheese singles.
It’s pretty similar to rappers becoming rich and still doing the things they always did.
Moreover, specifically, people like these guys, Kid Rock, etc. are just white dudes who desperately want to rap but they suck terribly. I remember hearing a Kid Rock rap demo tape from when he was about 17 and it was the worst thing i’ve ever heard. His voice was literally cracking…so he just made the best of it!
IMO it’s perfectly fine to make fun of them:) They’re not oppressed.
What's wrong with coleslaw?Replies: @Bill M
I do agree that the fanatical discipline and future time orientation necessary to become someone like Razib isn't for everyone, and if you're not as smart as Razib, may not even pay off. Past a certain point your IQ and skills just aren't enough to get anywhere in life, and you may as well just enjoy the ride.
Besides, evolutionarily, in a rapidly changing environment, perhaps the more impulsive people do better...? Anyone smarter than me about evolution care to comment?
Regarding Plato in university education, why is there such a focus on The Republic and Plato’s moral and political philosophy? Plato’s more dialectical and “scientific” dialogues seem to be neglected relative to his moral and political stuff. Part of it seems to be due to the general academic and cultural consensus that modern science has superseded philosophical speculation while ethics and politics are areas yet to be conquered by science and thus where philosophy is still relevant. It may also have to do with the neglected dialogues being more abstract and difficult to read. Are there any other reasons? I don’t find the moral and political any more practical and interesting than the other dialogues.
Not that it makes ancient scientists dumb--I've no doubt Archimedes was just as smart as Newton or Einstein. But they had a lot less to work on, so naturally their models weren't as good. Shoulders of giants, etc.Replies: @vinteuil
OK, I'll take the bait. Which particular dialogues are you thinking of?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has not superseded philosophical speculation about stuff like the four elements, Democritus' version of atomism, etc.?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has superseded what Plato has to say about ethics and politics in Republic?
"I don’t find the moral and political any more practical and interesting than the other dialogues."
Since I don't know which "other dialogues" you're referring to, I'm not sure what to say, here.Replies: @Bill M, @Anonymous
Also, FWIW or for anyone who’s not from here, back in the 90s rap took over as the default “cool” in many areas and so a lot of white kids got into rap and started acting “black” to fit in. Hillbillies were no different. Being “rural” or country wasn’t gonna get you any girls in my area but there were a lot of dudes from rural areas. Mixing in a little rap was a sure way to stay macho without sacrificing of all of their “country.” Plus, they aren’t the most discerning listeners so it wasn’t a difficult change.
It would seem that per utilitarianism poetry isn’t any better than push pin, per Bentham and contra Mill.
This trend has been ongoing since the early 2000s. Not all or probably most country, but I suspect Razib is more knowledgeable about current country, so I'd go with his opinions here ;) "Redneck Woman" in 2004 was when I first noticed this embrace of debasement pride.
You can see this trajectory with Hank Williams Jr. "Country Boys Can Survive" in the mid eighties has some grit, but "That's How They Do it Dixie" in early 2000s brought out the worst in him; he is very good friends with Kid Rock, too.
(If I link to one more Jr. video, I'm afraid Ron Unz is going to put me in the doghouse...and I wouldn't blame him!)
Kinda OT, but the singular force that is Miranda Lambert has been more destructive to country music than brocountry, IMHO. Her voice is like two cats fighting and she is utterly charmless. When the execs said "female singers" were hurting ratings, I strongly suspect this was a euphemism for "Miranda Lambert".Replies: @Dahlia, @jamie
“This trend has been ongoing since the early 2000s.”
All music has all been downhill since reaching its peak in the Baroque period: nowhere else to go but down!
Your comment reminds me of a thought I had while reading Razib's post: the best in country music that I have become even more aware of recently is the recreation, or even inspiration by, of Civil War and other 19th century music. The 2nd South Carolina String Band's 2007 rendition of "Good Ol' Rebel" is the greatest; they also actually tried to capture the anger of the writer.
Actually, there has been a renaissance in just about all historic European popular music. There's never been a better time for those interested in the long forgotten. The offerings on Amazon are plenty and the reviews can get wild and crazy, lol!
I guess this is what the serious and or intelligent artists are doing these days.
No. the peak came in 1950/1: Shostakovich's 24 Preludes & Fugues Op. 87: a work which combines technical facility & emotional intensity in a way that nobody had ever achieved before & nobody is every likely to achieve again.Replies: @jamie
It's pretty similar to rappers becoming rich and still doing the things they always did.
Moreover, specifically, people like these guys, Kid Rock, etc. are just white dudes who desperately want to rap but they suck terribly. I remember hearing a Kid Rock rap demo tape from when he was about 17 and it was the worst thing i've ever heard. His voice was literally cracking...so he just made the best of it!
IMO it's perfectly fine to make fun of them:) They're not oppressed.Replies: @jamie, @SFG, @iffen
“They *like* cole slaw.”
What’s wrong with coleslaw?
What's wrong with coleslaw?Replies: @Bill M
Yeah, cole slaw is popular with more upscale and wealthier people too.
Might be an English thing, but I don’t find the video shocking at all. People outdoors, being sociable. Not my thing, but it’s not really shocking grimy kitchen sink in the way that equivalent videos from my culture would be are that are filled with anger and urban or suburban wastelands. Sleaford Mods style dingy crappiness, anger, desperation and loneliness. Although the lack of real genuine humour and self deprecation (which you find aplenty in Grime for instance), all the serious po faced rapface, is probably the biggest downer about that vid.
It’s all a lot less crass or gross than, like, adverts for men spending hours lifting crap they don’t have to, to build glamour muscles they don’t need, that would help them fight fights they’ll never have (or never really needed to have) and if they have any value it’s just pathetically impressing some woman. Or cavalcades of materialist debt (that at best you pay off by doing some job that’s just makework, selling other junk to other people that they don’t need).
There was this Southpark Episode about Honey Boo Boo which covers a similar subject like the article. Also I have the impression – but I might be wrong, judging from over the atlantic – that recently eating contests and restaurants with super-huge meals are getting more popular in the USA.
All music has all been downhill since reaching its peak in the Baroque period: nowhere else to go but down!Replies: @Dahlia, @vinteuil
Now that’s what I’m talking about!
Your comment reminds me of a thought I had while reading Razib’s post: the best in country music that I have become even more aware of recently is the recreation, or even inspiration by, of Civil War and other 19th century music. The 2nd South Carolina String Band’s 2007 rendition of “Good Ol’ Rebel” is the greatest; they also actually tried to capture the anger of the writer.
Actually, there has been a renaissance in just about all historic European popular music. There’s never been a better time for those interested in the long forgotten. The offerings on Amazon are plenty and the reviews can get wild and crazy, lol!
I guess this is what the serious and or intelligent artists are doing these days.
My only point is that Morrissey crafted a public image for himself. The image was, to a great extent, who he defined himself as, since he has generally been a relentlessly self-absorbed. But he wasn’t someone who honestly didn’t give a shit what he he looked like or was seen as by his fans. He was not a mere conveyance for songs, which is what you get when you have musicians who do not have a public persona.
I’m actually a pretty big Moz fan, although I’m not so into his solo stuff. When you’re that certain kind of teenager who always has their nose in a book, and has no idea how to talk to girls, songs like Ask and Asleep speak to you in a way the conventional popular songs about love and sex do not.
being poor, and to a lesser extent working class, results in some unfortunate consequences. even if it's class-typical, doesn't mean that it's OK.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Dahlia, @Karl Zimmerman
Sorry Razib, this is an aside, but can you tell me how you find time between two kids and a job to work out regularly? My wife made me drop the gym membership after our second child came along, with rather predictable results (e.g., I’m not obese, but back to being moderately overweight again). The only regular exercise I get is commuting on my bike with my son, because I don’t see any other time of the day I can squeeze in an hour to do weights or cardio.
It's pretty similar to rappers becoming rich and still doing the things they always did.
Moreover, specifically, people like these guys, Kid Rock, etc. are just white dudes who desperately want to rap but they suck terribly. I remember hearing a Kid Rock rap demo tape from when he was about 17 and it was the worst thing i've ever heard. His voice was literally cracking...so he just made the best of it!
IMO it's perfectly fine to make fun of them:) They're not oppressed.Replies: @jamie, @SFG, @iffen
Eh…I don’t know. Kid Rock isn’t oppressed, but a guy in a trailer park might be.
I do agree that the fanatical discipline and future time orientation necessary to become someone like Razib isn’t for everyone, and if you’re not as smart as Razib, may not even pay off. Past a certain point your IQ and skills just aren’t enough to get anywhere in life, and you may as well just enjoy the ride.
Besides, evolutionarily, in a rapidly changing environment, perhaps the more impulsive people do better…? Anyone smarter than me about evolution care to comment?
It’s also still possible to theorize that Plato might be someone to read on, say, politics or ethics, whereas stuff like the four elements is pretty much wrong.
Not that it makes ancient scientists dumb–I’ve no doubt Archimedes was just as smart as Newton or Einstein. But they had a lot less to work on, so naturally their models weren’t as good. Shoulders of giants, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fPpKVoC7icReplies: @vinteuil
“Maybe Morrissey can have a talk with him?”
Jeezus – how did Morrissey ever get so old?
How ill white hairs become a fool and jester.
“Plato’s more dialectical and ‘scientific’ dialogues seem to be neglected relative to his moral and political stuff.”
OK, I’ll take the bait. Which particular dialogues are you thinking of?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has not superseded philosophical speculation about stuff like the four elements, Democritus’ version of atomism, etc.?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has superseded what Plato has to say about ethics and politics in Republic?
“I don’t find the moral and political any more practical and interesting than the other dialogues.”
Since I don’t know which “other dialogues” you’re referring to, I’m not sure what to say, here.
Sure, a lot of the content of his scientific speculations sound nonsensical today, but so do a lot of his political and ethical speculations.
Many mathematicians, in the hardest of the hard disciplines, still consider themselves to be Platonists today. So you could argue that Plato's most abstract and metaphysical stuff is still relevant today, while his speculations on natural and political philosophy are less so.Replies: @Sean, @vinteuil
Not that it makes ancient scientists dumb--I've no doubt Archimedes was just as smart as Newton or Einstein. But they had a lot less to work on, so naturally their models weren't as good. Shoulders of giants, etc.Replies: @vinteuil
SFG – sorry, posted before reading your comment. You put it more succinctly than I did.
Third opinion – as there is something odd about it.
First thought was balkanization / tribalism and the merging of what’s left of the urban blue collar with rural (and following various links to other country rap there is definitely an element of that in some of it)
except this feels a bit fake to me.
Second thought – simply “coming apart” underclass reverse evolution (and following various links to country rap there is definitely an element of that too)
again except this feels fake to me.
Third thought – after googling around a bit it seems there is a small-ish niche market for kids who grew up in the country who like rap and who rap about what they know i.e. the country: “The Lacs” and “Jawga Boys” have that vibe.
However the pair in this video seem to me more like 80s punk rockers who fell on this niche by accident (possibly originally as a joke) and the video maker at least really dislikes the audience.
Pleased I found “The Lacs” and “Jawga Boys” through this post.
All the same criticisms of the original vid could probably be made of this but at least it feels genuine and vaguely benign whereas the other felt fake and a little creepy.
Alasdair MacIntyre, Chapter 7, A short History of Ethics: History of Moral Philosophy from the Homeric Age to the Twentieth Century
All music has all been downhill since reaching its peak in the Baroque period: nowhere else to go but down!Replies: @Dahlia, @vinteuil
“All music has all been downhill since reaching its peak in the Baroque period…”
No. the peak came in 1950/1: Shostakovich’s 24 Preludes & Fugues Op. 87: a work which combines technical facility & emotional intensity in a way that nobody had ever achieved before & nobody is every likely to achieve again.
Meh. Perhaps it's simply beyond me. Starting with Mozart and onward into the classical (and then modern) period, there's certainly a lot of emotion and drama in music. But the abstract, crystalline quality of Bach (which to me is the very essence of what music is about) either becomes more difficult for me to detect, or it simply isn't there. A few too many notes, I guess...Replies: @vinteuil
perfect timing: Britney Spears’ shopping lists: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3165731/Britney-Spears-flashes-toned-tum-belly-button-ring-goes-shopping-sipping-sugary-iced-coffee.html
the first one pretty much proves my point, what with the Spaghettios and Wonder Bread:)
It's pretty similar to rappers becoming rich and still doing the things they always did.
Moreover, specifically, people like these guys, Kid Rock, etc. are just white dudes who desperately want to rap but they suck terribly. I remember hearing a Kid Rock rap demo tape from when he was about 17 and it was the worst thing i've ever heard. His voice was literally cracking...so he just made the best of it!
IMO it's perfectly fine to make fun of them:) They're not oppressed.Replies: @jamie, @SFG, @iffen
If it’s OK to do this:
I agree with Jamie. Cole slaw is good and good for you. That doesn’t mean you should put it on your BBQ sandwich though, just on the side.
Toynbee would not be surprised to see the internal proletariat celebrating their lifestyle, nor that a decadent civilization would find it attractive. Though I don't think we're close to collapse. Plenty of ruin left.
But a Toynbee angle on that video is my reaction on how to understand it. (Obviously also applies to rap as well, though as you note rap glamorizes money. But both deliberately flaunt their lifestyle to shock the middle/rich classes and have a coarse, but seductive attraction to upper class, which is very Toynbee).Replies: @iffen
What % of the upper class is attracted to this type music?
I am not an expert, but somehow I think the behavioral norms of the "urban" working class would be a lot different today, even if the early country (or blues) performers seem to have enjoyed a good time themselves.Replies: @iffen
Linthead. I haven’t seen or heard that in over 40 years. BTW you didn’t make your fortune off those lintheads, did you Russell?
This is a fault?
Early rap was pretty gritty, too. It's about being "genuine."
There's something viscerally appealing about the pathetic standing up for and expressing themselves. Sort of a revolutionary spirit.
Of course, when they succeed they begin to behave the same way as the "excellent" people, and next thing you know they're all about the mansions, private planes and so on.
So I guess now working-class whites are the new trodden-upon masses who defy society by rejecting aspirations and declaring that they like themselves fine. Probably not a good thing for elites. If they don't care about how the rest of society views them, will they still be susceptible to shaming and guilt tactics? Doubtful.Replies: @iffen
I hope you're doing everything you can to wean your cousin Tater away from country rap in favor of Shakespeare & Broadway tunes.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @iffen
Everyone does not have the time, resources or ability to learn a foreign language.
They are just insisting upon equal treatment with the rest of the culture. When every freak of nature that comes along gets to be queen for a day, then lots of other people think that it’s their turn.
OK, I'll take the bait. Which particular dialogues are you thinking of?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has not superseded philosophical speculation about stuff like the four elements, Democritus' version of atomism, etc.?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has superseded what Plato has to say about ethics and politics in Republic?
"I don’t find the moral and political any more practical and interesting than the other dialogues."
Since I don't know which "other dialogues" you're referring to, I'm not sure what to say, here.Replies: @Bill M, @Anonymous
It’s been a while since I’ve read Plato, but I’m thinking of the dialogues like Parmenides, Timaeus, Sophist that focus more on method, reasoning, metaphysics, etc.
Sure, a lot of the content of his scientific speculations sound nonsensical today, but so do a lot of his political and ethical speculations.
Many mathematicians, in the hardest of the hard disciplines, still consider themselves to be Platonists today. So you could argue that Plato’s most abstract and metaphysical stuff is still relevant today, while his speculations on natural and political philosophy are less so.
OK - I'll cop to never having read any of these dialogues. Do you think I should?
"Sure, a lot of the content of his scientific speculations sound nonsensical today, but so do a lot of his political and ethical speculations."
I find hardly any nonsense in Republic ii-iv.Replies: @Bill M
I have a question for the knowledgeable music people here that might wish to respond. In the older country music I sometimes see a conflict between the “rambling man” and the sturdy workman type. For the women I see the conflict between the dependable mother and wife as opposed to the “honky tonk” woman. What does that express? What does it mean? Does a part of us want to be rambling men and honky tonk women and those songs just key into that?
You may be detecting this?
Kathy Mattea, Eighteen wheels and a Dozen Roses
vs.
Waylon Jennings, I've Always Been CrazyReplies: @iffen
I think people need to question the realness of these people who make a grand show of their realness. We all see such people when we go out and about but just because we see them with our own eyes doesn’t make them real. I mean just because we see them wandering around in their little outfits, showing off their self-conscious personas, doesn’t make them unaffected and genuine; quite the opposite in fact. These people are real folks in the same way Roy Rogers was a real cowboy. It’s like the Duck Dynasty clan with their faux s***kicker act: Duck Dynasty is a Fake Yuppies-in-Red-Neck-Drag Con Job
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/21/1264354/-Duck-Dynasty-is-a-Fake-Yuppies-in-Red-Neck-Drag-Con-Job
It reminds me of something one of Gandhi’s wealthy sponsors said about helping to finance the Indian leader’s commune: “It costs us a fortune to keep Gandhi poor”.
The Duck Dynasty gang, and the country rappers in these videos, are just showbiz versions of a much wider problem. Go to almost any shopping mall and you’ll see legions of these flesh-and-blood phony real people. People who put lots of time, thought and effort into their little realness lifestyle. I guess that’s what comes from growing up literally in front of a TV screen. Everybody’s got to have an act now.
No. the peak came in 1950/1: Shostakovich's 24 Preludes & Fugues Op. 87: a work which combines technical facility & emotional intensity in a way that nobody had ever achieved before & nobody is every likely to achieve again.Replies: @jamie
“…the peak came in 1950/1: Shostakovich’s 24 Preludes & Fugues Op. 87:”
Meh. Perhaps it’s simply beyond me. Starting with Mozart and onward into the classical (and then modern) period, there’s certainly a lot of emotion and drama in music. But the abstract, crystalline quality of Bach (which to me is the very essence of what music is about) either becomes more difficult for me to detect, or it simply isn’t there. A few too many notes, I guess…
Oh, dear...if you're finding in J.S.Bach an "abstract crystalline quality" than you're listening to the wrong performances.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @jamie
OK, I'll take the bait. Which particular dialogues are you thinking of?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has not superseded philosophical speculation about stuff like the four elements, Democritus' version of atomism, etc.?
Are you really under the impression that modern science has superseded what Plato has to say about ethics and politics in Republic?
"I don’t find the moral and political any more practical and interesting than the other dialogues."
Since I don't know which "other dialogues" you're referring to, I'm not sure what to say, here.Replies: @Bill M, @Anonymous
You’ll have to forgive me, as it’s been a while since I’ve read my Plato, but I can’t quite recall where he holds forth on “stuff like the four elements, Democritus’ version of atomism, etc.?” I suppose you get some of that in the Timaeus, maybe? But that’s a rather tricky one to interpret, and presented explicitly as a myth (if memory serves, the phrase is ‘eikos logos’: ‘likely story’) besides.
Anyway, I would assume Bill M has in mind, I dunno, the Theaetetus, the Sophist, or the Parmenides—in which case the answer as to why they’re not taught in classes such as those you teach seems to me rather straightforward: they’re really, really, really hard.
You're right, of course. So far as I can recall, there's nothing in the Platonic dialogues concerning stuff like the four elements - let alone Democritus' inchoate version of atomism. I only mentioned those as examples of ancient Greek "science" in general, all of them quite obviously of purely historical interest.
In the dialogues I sort of know, Socrates, late in life, famously disavowed any ongoing interest in natural science [Phaedo, 96a &c], though he apparently still knew enough about the fashionable theories to subject them to hilarious ridicule [Meno, 76c &c].Replies: @Bill M
I can tell you that 80s country was very much about the worker. Unabashedly blue-collar and being on the straight and narrow. The 90s and early aughts to a lesser extent. The outlaw movement before celebrated a grittier, rambling existence.
You may be detecting this?
Kathy Mattea, Eighteen wheels and a Dozen Roses
vs.
Waylon Jennings, I’ve Always Been Crazy
I can’t quite get a handle on what bothers me. I understand the lamentations of say, Detroit City, Streets of Bakersfield or 16 Tons and I understand all the somebody done somebody wrong songs. All of those songs are about something that relates to the real experiences of the actual music fans. I’m thinking real rolling stones don’t buy music and there are not that many of them anyway. Maybe it plays into the idea that it is never too late to run away and start over. That this is not all there is and there is always the possibility of moving to greener pastures.
Anyway, I think the reason that we see stuff like this country rap is because it is so cheap and easy to communicate mass culture. There have always been freak shows and carnivals, always the bearded lady to see. Now the freak shows can market themselves directly to the mass consumer market and the proles are always chasing the latest and brightest bauble. The crass was there throughout history but it was limited by access. Now, any freak in the world can have their own tv show. There’s just more of it, it’s cheap and easy to spread; it’s not new. The prevailing PC rules keep people from saying a particular group is on to some major cultural garbage and they need to improve themselves, not wallow in their ignorance.Replies: @Dahlia
It’s worth contrasting country rap’s celebration of wallowing in one’s own filth with this song and video from a few years ago:
(Notice that video has just under half a billion views, which is not nothing)
Lorde sings about being from an ordinary New Zealand neighbourhood and not being drawn to the shiny stuff the mass culture dangles in front of her and her friends. Meanwhile the video shows White guys toughening up, not watching TV but watching each other’s back on the train trip back home at night.
Lorde’s song and video have the same take on class, tribe and “realness” that Morrissey and The Smiths have: quiet confidence and a sense of humour.
The Smiths – A Rush and a Push and the Land is Ours
Here’s President Putin’s favourite political thinker, Nikolai Berdyaev (1874-1948) on the topic of country rap, Duck Dynasty and all the rest of it:
Berdyaev, Putin, Lorde, Morrissey and I are of a like mind on this matter. “Tout ce qui monte converge” – “everything that rises, converges” – as Teilhard de Chardin said. I rest my case.
This is a very odd reason to like music, and I’m guessing would produce some terrible songs.
No doubt Plato was simply writing about muscle-tone and all of his philosophy was Straussian obscurantism designed to hide this.
The aspirational aspect of modern music is the main thing that makes it so awful. I don’t want music from self-proclaimed Übermenschen. Patrick Batemen had bad taste in music for a reason – because all he aspired to was gaining wealth, women, in being in shape.
Sure, a lot of the content of his scientific speculations sound nonsensical today, but so do a lot of his political and ethical speculations.
Many mathematicians, in the hardest of the hard disciplines, still consider themselves to be Platonists today. So you could argue that Plato's most abstract and metaphysical stuff is still relevant today, while his speculations on natural and political philosophy are less so.Replies: @Sean, @vinteuil
The followers of Leo Strauss seem to find Plato’s speculations on natural and political philosophy useful. Perhaps because if taken literally they can be used to justify philosophers’ dissimulation.
(Notice that video has just under half a billion views, which is not nothing)Lorde sings about being from an ordinary New Zealand neighbourhood and not being drawn to the shiny stuff the mass culture dangles in front of her and her friends. Meanwhile the video shows White guys toughening up, not watching TV but watching each other's back on the train trip back home at night. Lorde's song and video have the same take on class, tribe and "realness" that Morrissey and The Smiths have: quiet confidence and a sense of humour.The Smiths - A Rush and a Push and the Land is Ours Here's President Putin's favourite political thinker, Nikolai Berdyaev (1874-1948) on the topic of country rap, Duck Dynasty and all the rest of it:Berdyaev, Putin, Lorde, Morrissey and I are of a like mind on this matter. "Tout ce qui monte converge" - "everything that rises, converges" - as Teilhard de Chardin said. I rest my case.Replies: @Bill M, @Insightful, @njguy73
Even more insufferable than country-rap are dorky conservatives who extol the profundity of pop culture acts, politicians, and obscurantist scribblers.
(Notice that video has just under half a billion views, which is not nothing)Lorde sings about being from an ordinary New Zealand neighbourhood and not being drawn to the shiny stuff the mass culture dangles in front of her and her friends. Meanwhile the video shows White guys toughening up, not watching TV but watching each other's back on the train trip back home at night. Lorde's song and video have the same take on class, tribe and "realness" that Morrissey and The Smiths have: quiet confidence and a sense of humour.The Smiths - A Rush and a Push and the Land is Ours Here's President Putin's favourite political thinker, Nikolai Berdyaev (1874-1948) on the topic of country rap, Duck Dynasty and all the rest of it:Berdyaev, Putin, Lorde, Morrissey and I are of a like mind on this matter. "Tout ce qui monte converge" - "everything that rises, converges" - as Teilhard de Chardin said. I rest my case.Replies: @Bill M, @Insightful, @njguy73
The reggae version of Lorde Royals:
Thank you. Thank you for reminding me what a waste of time and effort it is for me to post comments online.
Little sympathy as I have for popular music of any kind, I found that video kind of fascinating.
r/k selection in a 10:90 balance
although currently maybe more 20:80 than 10:90 and heading down
You may be detecting this?
Kathy Mattea, Eighteen wheels and a Dozen Roses
vs.
Waylon Jennings, I've Always Been CrazyReplies: @iffen
Thanks Dahlia.
I can’t quite get a handle on what bothers me. I understand the lamentations of say, Detroit City, Streets of Bakersfield or 16 Tons and I understand all the somebody done somebody wrong songs. All of those songs are about something that relates to the real experiences of the actual music fans. I’m thinking real rolling stones don’t buy music and there are not that many of them anyway. Maybe it plays into the idea that it is never too late to run away and start over. That this is not all there is and there is always the possibility of moving to greener pastures.
Anyway, I think the reason that we see stuff like this country rap is because it is so cheap and easy to communicate mass culture. There have always been freak shows and carnivals, always the bearded lady to see. Now the freak shows can market themselves directly to the mass consumer market and the proles are always chasing the latest and brightest bauble. The crass was there throughout history but it was limited by access. Now, any freak in the world can have their own tv show. There’s just more of it, it’s cheap and easy to spread; it’s not new. The prevailing PC rules keep people from saying a particular group is on to some major cultural garbage and they need to improve themselves, not wallow in their ignorance.
"Alabama" was the top selling band or act of the entire decade and their ouvre pretty well sums up the decade. Forced to choose just one video that sums up the ethos of 80s country and its listeners, I gotta go with Alabama's Dixieland Delight; it's a pure treasure:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHZ-pD5LlyQThe 90s were incredibly soulful and a blast.We're in the selling out phase, just begun it, and I've been alienated from it so I don't feel qualified to say much. But as to general reflection..our culture is so coarse, we all know it. People wearing pajamas with flip flops in public. The barber shop I've taken my boys to for years had a t.v. show on yesterday that was half cartoon/half realistic with so much vulgarity, in every sentence and even mentioning vaginas. It didn't even occur to anyone that my four-year-old shouldn't be exposed to it. Just one anecdote. So, I'm not surprised by anything going on in any popular music.*Nashville says they were just reacting to rock and attenuate declining sales, but they're selling out now after following... the 90s renaissance?
How do I post a youtube video on here, anybody?
hobbesist – is that really you? my fellow survivor from the wreck of the good ship Forvm?
You’re right, of course. So far as I can recall, there’s nothing in the Platonic dialogues concerning stuff like the four elements – let alone Democritus’ inchoate version of atomism. I only mentioned those as examples of ancient Greek “science” in general, all of them quite obviously of purely historical interest.
In the dialogues I sort of know, Socrates, late in life, famously disavowed any ongoing interest in natural science [Phaedo, 96a &c], though he apparently still knew enough about the fashionable theories to subject them to hilarious ridicule [Meno, 76c &c].
Meh. Perhaps it's simply beyond me. Starting with Mozart and onward into the classical (and then modern) period, there's certainly a lot of emotion and drama in music. But the abstract, crystalline quality of Bach (which to me is the very essence of what music is about) either becomes more difficult for me to detect, or it simply isn't there. A few too many notes, I guess...Replies: @vinteuil
“Starting with Mozart and onward into the classical (and then modern) period, there’s certainly a lot of emotion and drama in music. But the abstract, crystalline quality of Bach (which to me is the very essence of what music is about) either becomes more difficult for me to detect, or it simply isn’t there.”
Oh, dear…if you’re finding in J.S.Bach an “abstract crystalline quality” than you’re listening to the wrong performances.
Glenn Gould's playing of J.S. Bach has that quality to it.Replies: @vinteuil
A question (not just for Vinteuil): I've never understood judging music primarily thru lyrics. I normally ignore lyrics. For those of you who do judge music by its lyrics, how do you approach songs written in a foreign language?Replies: @Cagey Beast, @vinteuil
Sure, a lot of the content of his scientific speculations sound nonsensical today, but so do a lot of his political and ethical speculations.
Many mathematicians, in the hardest of the hard disciplines, still consider themselves to be Platonists today. So you could argue that Plato's most abstract and metaphysical stuff is still relevant today, while his speculations on natural and political philosophy are less so.Replies: @Sean, @vinteuil
“I’m thinking of the dialogues like Parmenides, Timaeus, Sophist that focus more on method, reasoning, metaphysics, etc.”
OK – I’ll cop to never having read any of these dialogues. Do you think I should?
“Sure, a lot of the content of his scientific speculations sound nonsensical today, but so do a lot of his political and ethical speculations.”
I find hardly any nonsense in Republic ii-iv.
Just copy the full address and then paste it here in your post. You can get the address of a YouTube video by right clicking on it and choosing “copy URL” or just getting it from your browser.
Oh, dear...if you're finding in J.S.Bach an "abstract crystalline quality" than you're listening to the wrong performances.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @jamie
Oh, dear…if you’re finding in J.S.Bach an “abstract crystalline quality” than you’re listening to the wrong performances.
Glenn Gould’s playing of J.S. Bach has that quality to it.
OK, you got me, there.
Glenn Gould's recordings of Bach do, indeed, have an "abstract crystalline quality" - the like of which was never heard before & will never be heard again.
Don’t let anybody get to you, Cagey Beast.
Little sympathy as I have for popular music of any kind, I found that video kind of fascinating.
Oh, dear...if you're finding in J.S.Bach an "abstract crystalline quality" than you're listening to the wrong performances.Replies: @Cagey Beast, @jamie
Honestly baffled by why you would say that. Bach’s compositions are noted for their intricate mathematical structure.
A question (not just for Vinteuil): I’ve never understood judging music primarily thru lyrics. I normally ignore lyrics. For those of you who do judge music by its lyrics, how do you approach songs written in a foreign language?
All the great songs seem to have lyrics that match the music and vice versa, so a person can get the emotional message from the tune even without understanding the lyrics. Even without knowing the French words, it's clear to tell which of these songs by Georges Brassens is about his fishing buddies and which one is about the time he was down and out and was helped out by a stranger:
http://brassenswithenglish.blogspot.ca/2008/02/chanson-pour-lauvergnat_08.html
http://brassenswithenglish.blogspot.ca/2008/04/les-copains-dabord-ballade-des-dames-du.htmlReplies: @jamie
Much as I hate to single anything out, the great preludes in c sharp minor & e flat minor from the first book of the Well Tempered Clavier immediately spring to mind. These works are almost as choked with emotion, & almost as free of any sort of intricate mathematical structure as their opposite numbers in Shostakovich's Op 86.Replies: @jamie
Glenn Gould's playing of J.S. Bach has that quality to it.Replies: @vinteuil
“Glenn Gould’s playing of J.S. Bach has that quality to it.”
OK, you got me, there.
Glenn Gould’s recordings of Bach do, indeed, have an “abstract crystalline quality” – the like of which was never heard before & will never be heard again.
So we all have a little bit of r and most are content to stick to the k line and just listen to songs about how great it would be to let your inner r cut loose and run rampant.
A question (not just for Vinteuil): I've never understood judging music primarily thru lyrics. I normally ignore lyrics. For those of you who do judge music by its lyrics, how do you approach songs written in a foreign language?Replies: @Cagey Beast, @vinteuil
I’ve never understood judging music primarily thru lyrics. I normally ignore lyrics. For those of you who do judge music by its lyrics, how do you approach songs written in a foreign language?
All the great songs seem to have lyrics that match the music and vice versa, so a person can get the emotional message from the tune even without understanding the lyrics. Even without knowing the French words, it’s clear to tell which of these songs by Georges Brassens is about his fishing buddies and which one is about the time he was down and out and was helped out by a stranger:
http://brassenswithenglish.blogspot.ca/2008/02/chanson-pour-lauvergnat_08.html
http://brassenswithenglish.blogspot.ca/2008/04/les-copains-dabord-ballade-des-dames-du.html
I dunno. I see absolutely no reason why you couldn't have, eg. a stunningly beautiful song about Hitler eating live puppies for breakfast. To say that such a song couldn't count as "great" a-proiri seems a bit dogmatic.Replies: @vinteuil
I can’t quite get a handle on what bothers me. I understand the lamentations of say, Detroit City, Streets of Bakersfield or 16 Tons and I understand all the somebody done somebody wrong songs. All of those songs are about something that relates to the real experiences of the actual music fans. I’m thinking real rolling stones don’t buy music and there are not that many of them anyway. Maybe it plays into the idea that it is never too late to run away and start over. That this is not all there is and there is always the possibility of moving to greener pastures.
Anyway, I think the reason that we see stuff like this country rap is because it is so cheap and easy to communicate mass culture. There have always been freak shows and carnivals, always the bearded lady to see. Now the freak shows can market themselves directly to the mass consumer market and the proles are always chasing the latest and brightest bauble. The crass was there throughout history but it was limited by access. Now, any freak in the world can have their own tv show. There’s just more of it, it’s cheap and easy to spread; it’s not new. The prevailing PC rules keep people from saying a particular group is on to some major cultural garbage and they need to improve themselves, not wallow in their ignorance.Replies: @Dahlia
I come from a long line of country music listeners and here’s the way I see it…
I see two general trends that affect country music. One is a sell out/honesty cycle* and the other is it is just generally and honestly reflecting what is going on in the minds and hearts of people.
For example, the Silent Generation men tended to be extremely self-assured, sometimes to the point of cockiness. You see this strongly in the Outlaw movement of the 70s, created by men born in the 30s, like Elvis. But they couldn’t make their mark in the late 50s to late 60s (excepting Johnny Cash) because Country was in its “selling out” phase.
Funny enough, very soon after these men began making their mark, many of the young singers (Boomers) coming on were the sons and daughters of the rambling men and were popular at almost the same time!
If I could sum up the 80s in one word, it would be “rootedness”. Being rooted in faith, tradition, family, celebrating rather than being ashamed of your class, etc. Very conservative.
“Alabama” was the top selling band or act of the entire decade and their ouvre pretty well sums up the decade. Forced to choose just one video that sums up the ethos of 80s country and its listeners, I gotta go with Alabama’s Dixieland Delight; it’s a pure treasure:
The 90s were incredibly soulful and a blast.
We’re in the selling out phase, just begun it, and I’ve been alienated from it so I don’t feel qualified to say much. But as to general reflection..our culture is so coarse, we all know it. People wearing pajamas with flip flops in public. The barber shop I’ve taken my boys to for years had a t.v. show on yesterday that was half cartoon/half realistic with so much vulgarity, in every sentence and even mentioning vaginas. It didn’t even occur to anyone that my four-year-old shouldn’t be exposed to it. Just one anecdote. So, I’m not surprised by anything going on in any popular music.
*Nashville says they were just reacting to rock and attenuate declining sales, but they’re selling out now after following… the 90s renaissance?
OK - I'll cop to never having read any of these dialogues. Do you think I should?
"Sure, a lot of the content of his scientific speculations sound nonsensical today, but so do a lot of his political and ethical speculations."
I find hardly any nonsense in Republic ii-iv.Replies: @Bill M
Well as hobbesist mentioned, those dialogues are very hard. Very far from leisure reading. But Parmenides might be worth checking out simply because it’s the one dialogue where Socrates loses the argument.
A question (not just for Vinteuil): I've never understood judging music primarily thru lyrics. I normally ignore lyrics. For those of you who do judge music by its lyrics, how do you approach songs written in a foreign language?Replies: @Cagey Beast, @vinteuil
Jamie, I’m honestly baffled why you’re honestly baffled.
Much as I hate to single anything out, the great preludes in c sharp minor & e flat minor from the first book of the Well Tempered Clavier immediately spring to mind. These works are almost as choked with emotion, & almost as free of any sort of intricate mathematical structure as their opposite numbers in Shostakovich’s Op 86.
All the great songs seem to have lyrics that match the music and vice versa, so a person can get the emotional message from the tune even without understanding the lyrics. Even without knowing the French words, it's clear to tell which of these songs by Georges Brassens is about his fishing buddies and which one is about the time he was down and out and was helped out by a stranger:
http://brassenswithenglish.blogspot.ca/2008/02/chanson-pour-lauvergnat_08.html
http://brassenswithenglish.blogspot.ca/2008/04/les-copains-dabord-ballade-des-dames-du.htmlReplies: @jamie
“All the great songs seem to have lyrics that match the music…”
I dunno. I see absolutely no reason why you couldn’t have, eg. a stunningly beautiful song about Hitler eating live puppies for breakfast. To say that such a song couldn’t count as “great” a-proiri seems a bit dogmatic.
To my ears, the single most perfect & beautiful song ever written would be Handel's "Ombra mai fu." Xerxes I of Persia addresses himself to a tree:
Tender and beautiful fronds
of my beloved plane tree,
let Fate smile upon you.
May thunder, lightning, and storms
never disturb your dear peace,
nor may you by blowing winds be profaned.
Never was a shade of any plant
dearer and more lovely, or more sweet.
You're right, of course. So far as I can recall, there's nothing in the Platonic dialogues concerning stuff like the four elements - let alone Democritus' inchoate version of atomism. I only mentioned those as examples of ancient Greek "science" in general, all of them quite obviously of purely historical interest.
In the dialogues I sort of know, Socrates, late in life, famously disavowed any ongoing interest in natural science [Phaedo, 96a &c], though he apparently still knew enough about the fashionable theories to subject them to hilarious ridicule [Meno, 76c &c].Replies: @Bill M
Some of the more abstract conceptions of Greek science still persist in modern science though. For example, time as a mathematizable, continuous variable, conceived as a continuum of instants, which was explicated by Aristotle in his Physics and Metaphysics, more or less prevails in modern physics and science. The difference is that for the Greeks, something like time was a phenomenon that was still open to question, whereas for us today we take it for granted and as being settled. Most Greek science is indeed primarily of historical interest, but there may be some value in seeing how very fundamental and basic concepts can be questioned.
My friend, I simply have no idea what any of this means.
Much as I hate to single anything out, the great preludes in c sharp minor & e flat minor from the first book of the Well Tempered Clavier immediately spring to mind. These works are almost as choked with emotion, & almost as free of any sort of intricate mathematical structure as their opposite numbers in Shostakovich's Op 86.Replies: @jamie
Are you denying that many people regard Bach’s works as highly mathematical, or are you saying that they shouldn’t?
Well, we've strayed way off topic here, but it's in a very high-toned way, so maybe RK will continue to indulge us. Anyway: yes, obviously - "many people regard Bach's works as highly mathematical." And that's understandable, I guess, 'cause he was partial to forms like the canon, the fugue, the chaconne & the passacaglia which, intuitively, at least, seem highly "mathematical," even though it's no easy matter to explain just exactly why.
But when it comes to his freely composed stuff, the guy was at least as wild & crazy & un-mathematical as Liszt or Скрябин. I've already mentioned a couple of examples from WTC I. Here's another one:
Does that strike you as "highly mathematical?" I hope not. Does it strike you as incredibly beautiful? I hope so.Replies: @jamie
Yes, that’s where blue collar generally ends up when there’s been full employment for long enough imo – mostly k but never 100%. Then with large scale un- or under- employment it gradually falls apart.
(Notice that video has just under half a billion views, which is not nothing)Lorde sings about being from an ordinary New Zealand neighbourhood and not being drawn to the shiny stuff the mass culture dangles in front of her and her friends. Meanwhile the video shows White guys toughening up, not watching TV but watching each other's back on the train trip back home at night. Lorde's song and video have the same take on class, tribe and "realness" that Morrissey and The Smiths have: quiet confidence and a sense of humour.The Smiths - A Rush and a Push and the Land is Ours Here's President Putin's favourite political thinker, Nikolai Berdyaev (1874-1948) on the topic of country rap, Duck Dynasty and all the rest of it:Berdyaev, Putin, Lorde, Morrissey and I are of a like mind on this matter. "Tout ce qui monte converge" - "everything that rises, converges" - as Teilhard de Chardin said. I rest my case.Replies: @Bill M, @Insightful, @njguy73
Which, BTW, is why American conservatism failed. It took its cues from William F. Buckley who wrote that the conservative should stand athwart history yelling Stop.
Imagine that, after all that walking around, I am back looking at the door with the ECON sign. I am beginning to think that life is not like a box of chocolates after all; it is more like Chinese lanterns connected by a line with something that starts with e running through it. Then again it might just be one crazy coincidence after another.
Mainstream Anglosphere conservatism looks more and more like counterfeit conservatism as the years go by. The current self-styled conservatives get worse and the rest of us have more time to look things up here on the web about guys like Buckley. I think that’s why so many of us are drifting off to find other, non-Anglosphere sources of ideas. Living and dead Frenchmen, Russians, Germans and Spaniards are consulted to see what their take on things are; now that we’ve all had about four decades of the Bill Buckley, Rupert Murdoch version of things. Christians talk about living a “Christ-centred life”. Murdoch and Buckley’s brand of conservatism is a sort of Churchill-centered living, I guess.
“Are you denying that many people regard Bach’s works as highly mathematical, or are you saying that they shouldn’t?”
Well, we’ve strayed way off topic here, but it’s in a very high-toned way, so maybe RK will continue to indulge us. Anyway: yes, obviously – “many people regard Bach’s works as highly mathematical.” And that’s understandable, I guess, ’cause he was partial to forms like the canon, the fugue, the chaconne & the passacaglia which, intuitively, at least, seem highly “mathematical,” even though it’s no easy matter to explain just exactly why.
But when it comes to his freely composed stuff, the guy was at least as wild & crazy & un-mathematical as Liszt or Скрябин. I’ve already mentioned a couple of examples from WTC I. Here’s another one:
Does that strike you as “highly mathematical?” I hope not. Does it strike you as incredibly beautiful? I hope so.
“Some of the more abstract conceptions of Greek science still persist in modern science though. For example, time as a mathematizable, continuous variable, conceived as a continuum of instants, which was explicated by Aristotle in his Physics and Metaphysics, more or less prevails in modern physics and science. The difference is that for the Greeks, something like time was a phenomenon that was still open to question, whereas for us today we take it for granted and as being settled.”
My friend, I simply have no idea what any of this means.
I dunno. I see absolutely no reason why you couldn't have, eg. a stunningly beautiful song about Hitler eating live puppies for breakfast. To say that such a song couldn't count as "great" a-proiri seems a bit dogmatic.Replies: @vinteuil
On this particular point, I must agree with Jamie.
To my ears, the single most perfect & beautiful song ever written would be Handel’s “Ombra mai fu.” Xerxes I of Persia addresses himself to a tree:
Tender and beautiful fronds
of my beloved plane tree,
let Fate smile upon you.
May thunder, lightning, and storms
never disturb your dear peace,
nor may you by blowing winds be profaned.
Never was a shade of any plant
dearer and more lovely, or more sweet.
And with all the talk of Morrissey here, no one’s brought up the fact that his fan base is now mostly…
…wait for it…
…Mexican-American.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/08/why-do-mexican-americans-love-morrissey-so-much/
And there was a good 2002 article by Chuck Klosterman in Spin about it.
Well, we've strayed way off topic here, but it's in a very high-toned way, so maybe RK will continue to indulge us. Anyway: yes, obviously - "many people regard Bach's works as highly mathematical." And that's understandable, I guess, 'cause he was partial to forms like the canon, the fugue, the chaconne & the passacaglia which, intuitively, at least, seem highly "mathematical," even though it's no easy matter to explain just exactly why.
But when it comes to his freely composed stuff, the guy was at least as wild & crazy & un-mathematical as Liszt or Скрябин. I've already mentioned a couple of examples from WTC I. Here's another one:
Does that strike you as "highly mathematical?" I hope not. Does it strike you as incredibly beautiful? I hope so.Replies: @jamie
“…which, intuitively, at least, seem highly ‘mathematical,’ even though it’s no easy matter to explain just exactly why.”
Yes! The “abstract crystalline” quality that I perceive as most purely musical, and which faded after the Baroque period.
(And yes, music can be deeply moving without this quality. That’s besides the point.)
“The ‘abstract crystalline’ quality that I perceive as most purely musical…”
Fair enough. I’m not going to try to argue that you don’t perceive what you believe that you perceive.
Btw – in the comment to which you’re replying, I had attempted to embed the great Hungarian contralto Julia Hamari’s performance of “Erbarme dich, mein Gott” from the Matthäus Passion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPAiH9XhTHc
It came through when I previewed the comment, but disappeared when I published. It’s worth checking out.
It’s the legacy of the Enlightenment. It has taken some centuries to permeate society but it reached the masses during mid-20th century.
Plato and other philosophers believed in something to aspire to. You can call it virtue, forms, natural law, God, objective standard, etc. So, before the Enlightenment, human philosophy was focused on the pursue of the Good (in its three variants: the Truth, the Virtue, the Beauty), which was assumed to be an objective reality separated from human being. It was the pursue of virtue.
Therefore, it was a society where the elite tried to be cultured and the masses tried to imitate the elite. If you read the speeches of, say, Lincoln, you are amazed at the grammatical and lexical complexity. Nobody thought about using simple language to reach the masses (like modern politicians: “Yes, we can”). They thought the masses had to learn how to understand literary language.
The materialism of the Enlightenment implies that matter is all there is. Virtue and good are only subjective neural experiences. There is no objective standard to measure things separated from human brain, only subjective opinion. Hence, itt is not about the pursue of the virtue but the pursue of the happiness. The goal in life is not improve oneself but to get the most amount of pleasure with the least amount of pain.
Razib can dislike the demotic but most people love it. Who is right? It is only a question of opinion. Since there is no objective standard, the decisions are taken according to majority (hence, democracy). And majority have tastes like those in the video.
So yes, Western culture gets more and more pedestrian. And this makes happy most people. There are some weird people, such as Razib or me, that have some weird tastes (such as Plato) but we are the minority.
We imagine themselves better than others, but we are not right, because if we say “philosophy is better than country rap”, this is only our opinion and other guy can say “philosophy is bs and country rap is great”. It boils down to a difference of opinions.
We imagine themselves better than others, but we are not right, because if we say “philosophy is better than country rap”, this is only our opinion and other guy can say “philosophy is bs and country rap is great”. It boils down to a difference of opinions.
you can say that. i didn’t. i’m not saying people have to be like me (this keeps getting imputed on me, and it’s starting to piss me off since i’ve said that i don’t believe this multiple times). but, for example, being fit is something we can all aspire to and agree on as bettering ourselves, even if we fall short.
Plato and other philosophers believed in something to aspire to. You can call it virtue, forms, natural law, God, objective standard, etc. So, before the Enlightenment, human philosophy was focused on the pursue of the Good (in its three variants: the Truth, the Virtue, the Beauty), which was assumed to be an objective reality separated from human being. It was the pursue of virtue.
Therefore, it was a society where the elite tried to be cultured and the masses tried to imitate the elite. If you read the speeches of, say, Lincoln, you are amazed at the grammatical and lexical complexity. Nobody thought about using simple language to reach the masses (like modern politicians: "Yes, we can"). They thought the masses had to learn how to understand literary language.
The materialism of the Enlightenment implies that matter is all there is. Virtue and good are only subjective neural experiences. There is no objective standard to measure things separated from human brain, only subjective opinion. Hence, itt is not about the pursue of the virtue but the pursue of the happiness. The goal in life is not improve oneself but to get the most amount of pleasure with the least amount of pain.
Razib can dislike the demotic but most people love it. Who is right? It is only a question of opinion. Since there is no objective standard, the decisions are taken according to majority (hence, democracy). And majority have tastes like those in the video.
So yes, Western culture gets more and more pedestrian. And this makes happy most people. There are some weird people, such as Razib or me, that have some weird tastes (such as Plato) but we are the minority.
We imagine themselves better than others, but we are not right, because if we say "philosophy is better than country rap", this is only our opinion and other guy can say "philosophy is bs and country rap is great". It boils down to a difference of opinions.Replies: @iffen
One’s little valley may be a Garden of Eden, but you don’t know what’s over in the other valley unless you climb to the top of the mountain and take a look. More than that, if you don’t want to go have a look, don’t grab the ankles of the ones who do want to make the climb.