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I have been very busy obviously. This is not a complaint, though I wish I could spend more time with my family. I do things professionally that I love. And, I’m well compensated for it.
Many people are not in a similar situation. I don’t have a major comment on the recent British vote aside from the fact that in a democracy with one person (adult) one vote the outcomes are not always going to be congenial to elites. I’d rather not be reductive, but, if people in large numbers are behaving in a manner that you perceive to be nihilistic, it may have something to do with your lack of comprehension about their values or prospects. The elites over the past ten years do seem to be engaging in a full throttle game of economic (neoliberal and pro-corporate) and cultural capture of the nation-state. This has triggered populism of the Left and Right. In popular democracies that means that the elites can sometimes lose, because non-elites believe they have nothing to lose.
Obviously I have not been able to sit down and write a long treatment of Iosif Lazaridis’ magisterial The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers. Greg Cochran has some comment, while the comment threads of Eurogenes are often informative. I would recommend that you read the supplementary document first. It’s basically a small book.
A few quick comments though. David Reich has stated that all of the world’s major populations are the products of relatively recent admixtures (i.e., the last 10,000 years after the Ice Age). In Lazaridis’ et al. the authors suggest that West Eurasian populations can be thought of as a mix of four root populations which flourished ~10,000 years ago. But I’d like to add that two of the four, the farmer populations, are themselves admixtures between two very distinct streams. A step backward and you have three root populations: Basal Eurasians, Ancient North Eurasians, and a variegated “West Hunter-Gatherer” set of groups. We have ancient genomes for the last two groups in a relatively unadmixed form, but not the first.
Also, 2007 PNAS paper Genetic evidence for a second domestication of barley (Hordeum vulgare) east of the Fertile Crescent: “We use differences in haplotype frequency among geographic regions at multiple loci to infer at least two domestications of barley; one within the Fertile Crescent and a second 1,500–3,000 km farther east. The Fertile Crescent domestication contributed the majority of diversity in European and American cultivars, whereas the second domestication contributed most of the diversity in barley from Central Asia to the Far East.” (via Jeff Ross-Ibarra)
One of the things that ancient genomes have taught us is that the past was subject to heroic tumult. Demographic shifts were not like the diffusion of heat through space, but a phase transition. At some point I want to go back to the most ancient oral and textual memories of Holocene man. In particular, the Rig Veda seems likely to have fragments of a world that made us. Any suggestions for good translations? (I have the Griffith one).
Comments have been pretty good recently by the way. Keep it up.
What else is going on?
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Wendy Doniger’s Rig Veda selection for Penguin is the best for literary style. She is also a good scholar who knows her Sanskrit.
(Many conservative Hindus don’t like her because she often plays up the sexual aspect of many Hindu stories and images. On occasion she may indulge in a little Freudian overinterpretation, so I can see where they are coming from, but IMO overall she still seems pretty solid. She has many scholarly books out there worth checking out.)
The Rig Veda is a difficult text where significant parts of the meaning were lost. Griffith’s is an older translation, back when European scholarship was fairly new, so I would be cautious of its accuracy. It is more complete though.
thanks for the feedback. i’ve read doniger before (*the hindus*) and the freudianism was annoying. but i’ll get her translation if you recommend it.
“Obviously I have not been able to sit down and write a long treatment of Iosif Lazaridis’ magisterial The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers.”
Is this something we can look forward to?
Is this something we can look forward to?Replies: @Razib Khan
yes. i won’t be blogging *at length* until i finish that post.
agree https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/26/lander-cancer-cure-reality-check/
There’s a new app out that allows you to save time getting offended
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbfz4zRjhGM&feature=youtu.be
And JC Penny has a new pro-fat ad out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJlvtCzJPaQ&feature=youtu.be
Comments have been pretty good recently by the way. Keep it up.
What is this? Body snatchers at work? Old age? Ban somebody! Keep the universe balanced.
“In particular, the Rig Veda seems likely to have fragments of a world that made us”
I am curious why you think so. I think Rig veda as a puzzle with no use to understand and interpret, and I will come back to that point later.
Joel P. Brereton, Associate Professor of Asian Studies and Religious Studies at Texas, Austin, together with Stephanie Jamison (UCLA), made a new translation of the complete Rig Veda, which was published in 2014. It’s the first time in more than a hundred years that the Rig Veda has been translated to English in its entirety. It is a three volume set costing some 420$ published by OUP, and I am not sure if you can afford it since you appear to be out of academy. Other translators are Wendy Doniger, A. L. Basham, A. A. Macdonell, R. T. H. Griffith , H. H. Wilson, and Max Müller. There are subtle differences, but the Brereton translation seems to use more modern verbiage with none of the Freudian interpretive overtones.
Getting back to the point, look at his translation of hymn CXXIX. Creation:
“The non-existent did not exist, nor did the existent exist at that time.
There existed neither the midspace nor the heaven beyond.
What stirred? From where and in whose protection?
Did water exist, a deep depth?
Death did not exist nor deathlessness then.
There existed no sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed without wind through its inherent force.
There existed nothing else beyond that.”
What does this mean? What does any of this mean?
A Tamilian wag once said it is like an onion – once the layers peeled, there is nothing. Seinfeld is more profound.
Typo: We have ancient genomes for the last two groups in a relatively unadmixed form, but not the last.
Should be: “.. but not the first“.
This first farmer paper has me very interested in the ancient genomics of North and East Africa.
The Basal Eurasian populations are still mysterious. Where and when were the actual splits between Sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasians? Do East Africans have “Eurasian” ancestry due to back migrations from Eurasia, or from common ancestry related to Basal Eurasians that never left Africa?
I am curious why you think so. I think Rig veda as a puzzle with no use to understand and interpret, and I will come back to that point later.
Joel P. Brereton, Associate Professor of Asian Studies and Religious Studies at Texas, Austin, together with Stephanie Jamison (UCLA), made a new translation of the complete Rig Veda, which was published in 2014. It's the first time in more than a hundred years that the Rig Veda has been translated to English in its entirety. It is a three volume set costing some 420$ published by OUP, and I am not sure if you can afford it since you appear to be out of academy. Other translators are Wendy Doniger, A. L. Basham, A. A. Macdonell, R. T. H. Griffith , H. H. Wilson, and Max Müller. There are subtle differences, but the Brereton translation seems to use more modern verbiage with none of the Freudian interpretive overtones.
Getting back to the point, look at his translation of hymn CXXIX. Creation:
"The non-existent did not exist, nor did the existent exist at that time.
There existed neither the midspace nor the heaven beyond.
What stirred? From where and in whose protection?
Did water exist, a deep depth?
Death did not exist nor deathlessness then.
There existed no sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed without wind through its inherent force.
There existed nothing else beyond that."
What does this mean? What does any of this mean?
A Tamilian wag once said it is like an onion - once the layers peeled, there is nothing. Seinfeld is more profound.Replies: @omarali50
I would think it is worth reading, not necessarily for profound insights into reality, but because it is a window into the ancient Indo-European world that played such a huge role in the creation of the present cultures of much of Eurasia.. from Western Europe to India (and beyond). The heroic age, so to speak..
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/
That site also has Max Mueller version, but that one is incomprehensible because Herr Mueller spends incredible amounts of time comparing translations.
You can read and see if it provides any insight into Indo-European. I contend that it does not, and appears to be fanciful verses.Replies: @omarali50, @AspP
i think i’ll have some time for the post evening.
The Griffith text that Razib mentioned is at:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/
That site also has Max Mueller version, but that one is incomprehensible because Herr Mueller spends incredible amounts of time comparing translations.
You can read and see if it provides any insight into Indo-European. I contend that it does not, and appears to be fanciful verses.
Dearer to me the die that never slumbers than the deep draught of Mujavan's own Soma.
2 She never vexed me nor was angry with me, but to my friends and me was ever gracious.
For the die's sake, whose single point is final, mine own devoted wife I alienated.
3 My wife holds me aloof, her mother hates me: the wretched man finds none to give him comfort.
As of a costly horse grown old and feeble, I find not any profit of the gamester.
4 Others caress the wife of him whose riches the die hath coveted, that rapid courser:
Of him speak father, mother, brothers saying, We know him not: bind him and take him with you.
5 When I resolve to play with these no longer, my friends depart from me and leave me lonely.
When the brown dice, thrown on the board, have rattled, like a fond girl I seek the place of meeting.
6 The gamester seeks the gambling-house, and wonders, his body all afire, Shall I be lucky?
Still do the dice extend his eager longing, staking his gains against his adversary.
7 Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe.
They give frail gifts and then destroy the man who wins, thickly anointed with the player's fairest good.
8 Merrily sports their troop, the three-and-fifty, like Savitar the God whose ways are faithful.
They bend not even to the mighty's anger: the King himself pays homage and reveres them.
9 Downward they roll, and then spring quickly upward, and, handless, force the man with hands to serve them.
Cast on the board, like lumps of magic charcoal, though cold themselves they burn the heart to ashes.
10 The gambler's wife is left forlorn and wretched: the mother mourns the son who wanders homeless.
In constant fear, in debt, and seeking riches, he goes by night unto the home of others.
11 Sad is the gambler when he sees a matron, another's wife, and his well-ordered dwelling.
He yokes the brown steeds in the early morning, and when the fire is cold sinks down an outcast.
12 To the great captain of your mighty army, who hath become the host's imperial leader,
To him I show my ten extended fingers: I speak the truth. No wealth am I withholding.
13 Play not with dice: no, cultivate thy corn-land. Enjoy the gain, and deem that wealth sufficient.
There are thy cattle there thy wife, O gambler. So this good Savitar himself hath told me.
14 Make me your friend: show us some little mercy. Assail us not with your terrific fierceness.
Appeased be your malignity and anger, and let the brown dice snare some other captive."
I am also told (though I don't know enough to be able to check) that there are names of rivers and astronomical observations and names of animals and plants that may point to where the composers were warring and drinking soma. And so on and so forth...with a little imagination you can imagine an HBO series coming :)Though I will be the first to admit that instead of reading the repetitive hymns, I would prefer to read a book by someone who has collected all these bits of information and explained them..or maybe someone who has written a fantasy book series about those people.
I was not thinking of any special philosophical insights, though I guess someone like Christopher Beckwith (the guy who writes about central Asia) would say this IS a philosophy, even an attractive one.Replies: @omarali50
I have a feeling that Britain is well out of it. The EU led by Germany (desperate for the ultimate security that only comes from hegemony) is set on unlimited expansion eastward., while the US is begining to loosen control of its European allies. Germany terrifies Russia and it could easily end up in a war
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/
That site also has Max Mueller version, but that one is incomprehensible because Herr Mueller spends incredible amounts of time comparing translations.
You can read and see if it provides any insight into Indo-European. I contend that it does not, and appears to be fanciful verses.Replies: @omarali50, @AspP
Well, they tell of a people obsessed with great warriors, with “beauteous horses and of kine, In thousands”, with lots of soma drinking and fort-breaking.. who hoped to win ” wealth, renowned and ample, in brave sons, troops of slaves, far-famed for horses”. They also had priests who wanted the warriors to be generous with gifts (including mead). And they gambled, and got into trouble because of it:
“1. SPRUNG from tall trees on windy heights, these rollers transport me as they turn upon the table.
Dearer to me the die that never slumbers than the deep draught of Mujavan’s own Soma.
2 She never vexed me nor was angry with me, but to my friends and me was ever gracious.
For the die’s sake, whose single point is final, mine own devoted wife I alienated.
3 My wife holds me aloof, her mother hates me: the wretched man finds none to give him comfort.
As of a costly horse grown old and feeble, I find not any profit of the gamester.
4 Others caress the wife of him whose riches the die hath coveted, that rapid courser:
Of him speak father, mother, brothers saying, We know him not: bind him and take him with you.
5 When I resolve to play with these no longer, my friends depart from me and leave me lonely.
When the brown dice, thrown on the board, have rattled, like a fond girl I seek the place of meeting.
6 The gamester seeks the gambling-house, and wonders, his body all afire, Shall I be lucky?
Still do the dice extend his eager longing, staking his gains against his adversary.
7 Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe.
They give frail gifts and then destroy the man who wins, thickly anointed with the player’s fairest good.
8 Merrily sports their troop, the three-and-fifty, like Savitar the God whose ways are faithful.
They bend not even to the mighty’s anger: the King himself pays homage and reveres them.
9 Downward they roll, and then spring quickly upward, and, handless, force the man with hands to serve them.
Cast on the board, like lumps of magic charcoal, though cold themselves they burn the heart to ashes.
10 The gambler’s wife is left forlorn and wretched: the mother mourns the son who wanders homeless.
In constant fear, in debt, and seeking riches, he goes by night unto the home of others.
11 Sad is the gambler when he sees a matron, another’s wife, and his well-ordered dwelling.
He yokes the brown steeds in the early morning, and when the fire is cold sinks down an outcast.
12 To the great captain of your mighty army, who hath become the host’s imperial leader,
To him I show my ten extended fingers: I speak the truth. No wealth am I withholding.
13 Play not with dice: no, cultivate thy corn-land. Enjoy the gain, and deem that wealth sufficient.
There are thy cattle there thy wife, O gambler. So this good Savitar himself hath told me.
14 Make me your friend: show us some little mercy. Assail us not with your terrific fierceness.
Appeased be your malignity and anger, and let the brown dice snare some other captive.”
I am also told (though I don’t know enough to be able to check) that there are names of rivers and astronomical observations and names of animals and plants that may point to where the composers were warring and drinking soma. And so on and so forth…with a little imagination you can imagine an HBO series coming 🙂
Though I will be the first to admit that instead of reading the repetitive hymns, I would prefer to read a book by someone who has collected all these bits of information and explained them..or maybe someone who has written a fantasy book series about those people.
I was not thinking of any special philosophical insights, though I guess someone like Christopher Beckwith (the guy who writes about central Asia) would say this IS a philosophy, even an attractive one.
All of which is not without consequences.
Mitra-bheda: The Separation of Friends (The Lion and the Bull) is a pertinent story. The point of a story (which I read 20 years ago in a book) about a sneaky jackal making the apparently friendly Lion and Bull fight is that without absolute trust, neither could be sure of the other’s intentions and both adopted slightly more defensive postures, which were reciprocated. This pursuit of security leading to an increasingly offensive posture in self defence is the essence of realism.
Ancient ‘Deep Skull’ from Borneo full of surprises
http://phys.org/news/2016-06-ancient-deep-skull-borneo-full.html
Paper challenges current hypotheses for the gain and loss of heavy pigmentation in humans over evolutionary time
http://phys.org/news/2016-06-paper-current-gain-loss-heavy.html
Is there any good, fairly light, historical fiction set in the Rig Vedic/Indo-Aryan invasion era (in English or English translation)?
I find that reading a fictional treatment, even if it isn’t terribly accurate, makes actual non-fiction historical treatments a lot easier to feel motivated to read. Non-fiction treatments often slight context that would make the larger story more understandable.
http://phys.org/news/2016-06-ancient-deep-skull-borneo-full.html
Paper challenges current hypotheses for the gain and loss of heavy pigmentation in humans over evolutionary time
http://phys.org/news/2016-06-paper-current-gain-loss-heavy.htmlReplies: @ohwilleke
* Re the “Deep Skull”, the affinity for existing indigenous populations would seem to me to support that conclusion that Papuans/Aboriginal Australians were an earlier wave of migrants that were almost entirely wiped out (consistent with their Denisovan admixture which is much, much lower in other populations of Asia west of the Wallace line who would not have had an opportunity for this archaic admixture if the first wave killed/assimilated the existing archaic populations except indirectly through admixture with first wave modern humans).
But, the article seems to be arguing, instead, that the Deep Skull people were a first wave modern human population in Borneo which doesn’t make a lot of sense to conclude from this data point. Deep Skull is 32kya which leaves 18,000 years or more for a previous wave of modern humans to have come and go while leaving little archaeologically discernible impact (perhaps because they were completely wiped out by the second wave and thin on the ground until they showed up).
* Re the Lazaridis paper:
(1) Striking how much genetic differentiation there is over short distances.
I wonder how much this is really typical of differentiation at that distance and how much SW Asia is just at the boundary of diverse biogeographic areas that were naturally pretty separate pre-Holocene with areas in the same biogeographic areas having more genetic sharing; you wouldn’t necessarily expect hunter-gatherers to be sufficiently culturally cohesive to maintain strong endogamy relative to other hunter-gatherer groups.
The inference that they had different languages seems obvious.
This also changes my priors about evo-bio origins of racism.
(2) Y-DNA E in the Levant clearly dates to the pre-Neolithic era. And, farming in Egypt and North Africa is clearly Levantine in origin. But, this doesn’t necessarily support the inference that Afro-Asiatic languages originate in the Levant. (For example, the Y-DNA E in the Levant isn’t terribly basal or diverse). It is entirely plausible that Afro-Asiatic spread across North Africa, East Africa and the Levant in pre-Neolithic times, rather than being spread by Neolithic expansion. Linguistic continuity from the early Neolithic to the present is also, if anything, disfavored by recent findings in pre-history and historical linguistics. The possibility of Afro-Asiatic as derived from early metal age Egypt, replacing prior languages of the region, for example, also seems like a plausible model.
(3) We are getting a much better take on Indo-European ethnogenesis from this genetic data, but ultimately, to put together a coherent narrative of that process the new genetic data has to be integrated better with the archaeological record – particularly tracing the origins of domesticated plant/animal packages and aspects of the material culture. I also think one has to be wary of confusing possible pre-Bell Beaker peoples who may originate close to but to the south of the proto-Indo-Europeans from at least some of the same sources of technological innovations, from true Indo-Europeans to their north.
(4) The Iranian first farmers looks like very strong candidates for proto-/pre-Harappans and as an important component of ANI. But, it seems like some of the analysis by both Lazaridis and Davidski at Eurogenes is pointing towards a bigger impact of an Indo-Aryan contribution than seems reasonable. Could gradual migration from Central Asia to South Asia during the Harappan era perhaps have been more significant that conventional wisdom assumes?
The linkage disequilibrium suggests that most of the admixture was at the right time for it to be mostly Indo-Aryan, and the formal stats also seem to agree that most of the admixture came from the expected steppe populations at that time, not from the earlier populations.
It is a bit surprising, but actually not that hard to believe, considering the genetic impact of the Indo-Europeans in Europe.Replies: @Vijay
About the bigger impact of an Indo-Aryan contribution than seems reasonable in South Asia:
The linkage disequilibrium suggests that most of the admixture was at the right time for it to be mostly Indo-Aryan, and the formal stats also seem to agree that most of the admixture came from the expected steppe populations at that time, not from the earlier populations.
It is a bit surprising, but actually not that hard to believe, considering the genetic impact of the Indo-Europeans in Europe.
Harappan civilization is a phase in a series of events that started with agriculture at 6500 BC, ending in two civilizational phases, namely, 2600-1900 BC and late harappan, 1900-1300 BC. Its interaction with East-zagros and Oman is well known and could be related to having origins and continuous gene flow from East of Zagros.
The period after 1800 BC is the earliest entry of steppe people (albeit localized in Afghanistan and Central Asia) into India. They are believe to have entered from Afghanistan, not Baluchistan. The distance from Torkham to Taftan is > 1000 km. Although considered by some quarters to be "Aryan" or "IE", it is unclear if they were not some mixture with Afghan/central Asian there.
These two populations dominate the culture and genetics of India. It is unknown how to to make the connection between these two populations and ANI, in the absence of early skeleton DNA (yet).
In contrast, the origins of ASI are unclear. The neolothic herders of India are located in a few places in Deccan. It is unclear if the tribals arrived in India before 3000 BC. In spite of continuous search for Dravidans, the population numbers before the arrival of two populations is unclear, and believed to be small.
I believe the question is why the Aryan influence in Indian population genetics is smaller than expected, given the lack of population centers before 2000 BC in most of India.Replies: @Karl Zimmerman, @fake
Dearer to me the die that never slumbers than the deep draught of Mujavan's own Soma.
2 She never vexed me nor was angry with me, but to my friends and me was ever gracious.
For the die's sake, whose single point is final, mine own devoted wife I alienated.
3 My wife holds me aloof, her mother hates me: the wretched man finds none to give him comfort.
As of a costly horse grown old and feeble, I find not any profit of the gamester.
4 Others caress the wife of him whose riches the die hath coveted, that rapid courser:
Of him speak father, mother, brothers saying, We know him not: bind him and take him with you.
5 When I resolve to play with these no longer, my friends depart from me and leave me lonely.
When the brown dice, thrown on the board, have rattled, like a fond girl I seek the place of meeting.
6 The gamester seeks the gambling-house, and wonders, his body all afire, Shall I be lucky?
Still do the dice extend his eager longing, staking his gains against his adversary.
7 Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe.
They give frail gifts and then destroy the man who wins, thickly anointed with the player's fairest good.
8 Merrily sports their troop, the three-and-fifty, like Savitar the God whose ways are faithful.
They bend not even to the mighty's anger: the King himself pays homage and reveres them.
9 Downward they roll, and then spring quickly upward, and, handless, force the man with hands to serve them.
Cast on the board, like lumps of magic charcoal, though cold themselves they burn the heart to ashes.
10 The gambler's wife is left forlorn and wretched: the mother mourns the son who wanders homeless.
In constant fear, in debt, and seeking riches, he goes by night unto the home of others.
11 Sad is the gambler when he sees a matron, another's wife, and his well-ordered dwelling.
He yokes the brown steeds in the early morning, and when the fire is cold sinks down an outcast.
12 To the great captain of your mighty army, who hath become the host's imperial leader,
To him I show my ten extended fingers: I speak the truth. No wealth am I withholding.
13 Play not with dice: no, cultivate thy corn-land. Enjoy the gain, and deem that wealth sufficient.
There are thy cattle there thy wife, O gambler. So this good Savitar himself hath told me.
14 Make me your friend: show us some little mercy. Assail us not with your terrific fierceness.
Appeased be your malignity and anger, and let the brown dice snare some other captive."
I am also told (though I don't know enough to be able to check) that there are names of rivers and astronomical observations and names of animals and plants that may point to where the composers were warring and drinking soma. And so on and so forth...with a little imagination you can imagine an HBO series coming :)Though I will be the first to admit that instead of reading the repetitive hymns, I would prefer to read a book by someone who has collected all these bits of information and explained them..or maybe someone who has written a fantasy book series about those people.
I was not thinking of any special philosophical insights, though I guess someone like Christopher Beckwith (the guy who writes about central Asia) would say this IS a philosophy, even an attractive one.Replies: @omarali50
To all of which an insider/believer can add his own list of “what use is it”. These are, after all, hymns that are meant to be recited. Their very sound is supposed to have quasi-magical properties. Their addressees are higher beings who can bestow favors or withdraw them. This level of usefulness is obviously meaningless to a modern secular person, but even a modern secularized Hindu may feel the recitation creates a psychological connection to his or her people and their traditions and community values. .. and so on. Just like reciting the Quran and hearing it being recited provides some psychosocial connection/rootedness/whatever to a Muslim and even more (magical or placebo) benefits to the true believer.
All of which is not without consequences.
Gentlemen, this is all really nice stuff, but in case you hadn’t noticed, the 40,000 year era of organic humanity ended today, not with a bang but with a whimper; and for this you can thank your friend and mine, Kanye West. These are supposed to be wax figures…best I’ve ever seen
Say hello to the transhuman era and all it entails; and if you though being sheared was inconvenient, I’ve heard your masters have a taste for mutton right about now…
The linkage disequilibrium suggests that most of the admixture was at the right time for it to be mostly Indo-Aryan, and the formal stats also seem to agree that most of the admixture came from the expected steppe populations at that time, not from the earlier populations.
It is a bit surprising, but actually not that hard to believe, considering the genetic impact of the Indo-Europeans in Europe.Replies: @Vijay
I think that commenter confused two dissimilar things, namely, Harappan civilization, and the “Aryan” entry into India.
Harappan civilization is a phase in a series of events that started with agriculture at 6500 BC, ending in two civilizational phases, namely, 2600-1900 BC and late harappan, 1900-1300 BC. Its interaction with East-zagros and Oman is well known and could be related to having origins and continuous gene flow from East of Zagros.
The period after 1800 BC is the earliest entry of steppe people (albeit localized in Afghanistan and Central Asia) into India. They are believe to have entered from Afghanistan, not Baluchistan. The distance from Torkham to Taftan is > 1000 km. Although considered by some quarters to be “Aryan” or “IE”, it is unclear if they were not some mixture with Afghan/central Asian there.
These two populations dominate the culture and genetics of India. It is unknown how to to make the connection between these two populations and ANI, in the absence of early skeleton DNA (yet).
In contrast, the origins of ASI are unclear. The neolothic herders of India are located in a few places in Deccan. It is unclear if the tribals arrived in India before 3000 BC. In spite of continuous search for Dravidans, the population numbers before the arrival of two populations is unclear, and believed to be small.
I believe the question is why the Aryan influence in Indian population genetics is smaller than expected, given the lack of population centers before 2000 BC in most of India.
Based on passages within the Rig Veda that describe certain astronomical phenomena, some scholars believe that the Rig Veda may have existed as an oral tradition long before (4000BC or earlier) written records of it.
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/ch23.htm
The writers of the Vedas were apparently aware of the axial precession (a ~26,000 year cycle) long before the Greeks. Axial precession would have had a substantial effect on farming communities. There is a slight eccentricity in the Earth’s orbit which, when combined with axial precession creates a climactic cycle of 21,000 years. This creates a scenario where the Earth is closer to the sun for one shorter solstice, and further from the sun for the other, longer solstice. If the northern hemisphere is pointed towards the sun during the longer solstice, the summers and winters will be mild. If the northern hemisphere is pointed away from the sun during the long solstice, the weather will be much more extreme, with long intense winters.
Tracking the movement of the sun through the zodiac would have allowed the priestly class of ancient societies a greater ability to predict the length and severity of the seasons. I believe this was the true purpose of megalithic stone structures that have been seen throughout antiquity. A stone obelisk would have cast a shadow, varying in length and passing through different positions of the stone circle during different seasons. There also may have been further symbolism where the obelisk represented the male phallus, and the stone circle, or a vesica pisces represented the female. There are instances of this style of architecture seen in many areas around the globe, from Washington DC with the Washington monument, in ancient Egypt with Cleopatra’s needle, in the Vatican with St. Peter’s square, and others.
Knowledge of these very long astronomical cycles seems to necessitate the transmission of an unbroken cultural history over many generations. Perhaps the ancient cultures were more advanced than modern scholarship would like to credit them.
The Proto Indo European religion may have been the precursor the Vedic religion. From what I’ve gathered, this would have centered around the dualistic twin gods Yama/Yami and the brother Manu. Further back, prehistoric peoples may have possessed a fair amount of knowledge of astronomy. Michael Rappengluck has published some interesting papers on prehistoric religions and their relation to Astronomy:
http://www.infis.org/downloads/mr1999aenglpdf.pdf
http://www.infis.org/downloads/mr1997cenglpdf.pdf
http://www.infis.org/downloads/mr2000aenglpdf.pdf
Forgive me, I have a dumb question on genetics and an internet search didn’t reveal any clear answers, so I was hoping someone here could enlighten me. My understanding is that there are haplogroups related to male and female chromosomes as Y and mitochondrial. I can understand how the mitochondrial DNA can be comprised of multiple haplogroups over time, as females inherit the X chromosomes from both their fathers and mothers.
What I don’t understand is how people can possess multiple Y haplogroups. If a male inherits the Y chromosome from his father only, should his Y haplogroup not be a carbon copy of his father’s? I understand Y haplogroups may undergo changes, but should not that change be reflected in the son? Thank you
Mitochondrial DNA is in the mitochondria, not the X chromosome, and both males and females get their mitochondria solely from their mother.
If a male inherits the Y chromosome from his father only, should his Y haplogroup not be a carbon copy of his father’s? I understand Y haplogroups may undergo changes, but should not that change be reflected in the son?
Yes the change will be reflected in the son, but it will *only* be reflected in the son (and the son's sons etc), not in anyone else's sons. Ten thousands years down the track we can use this paricular change to identify all of this man's great-great-great-etc. grandsons. That's what "haplogroup" means - a set of mutations that uniquely distinguish one lineage from another.
Because there is an unbroken line of father to son in the Y-DNA, and mother to child in the mtDNA, we can use the mutations accumulated along the way ("haplogroups") to construct a tree ("phylogeny") of who is related to who, stretching way back in time. In nearly every population there is more than one founding male and female ancestor, as well as admixture from other populations, so we see multiple haplogroups in today's populations - any particular individual will only have one haplogroup each of Y/mtDNA however.
Hope that clears things up a bit for you.Replies: @undefined
Harappan civilization is a phase in a series of events that started with agriculture at 6500 BC, ending in two civilizational phases, namely, 2600-1900 BC and late harappan, 1900-1300 BC. Its interaction with East-zagros and Oman is well known and could be related to having origins and continuous gene flow from East of Zagros.
The period after 1800 BC is the earliest entry of steppe people (albeit localized in Afghanistan and Central Asia) into India. They are believe to have entered from Afghanistan, not Baluchistan. The distance from Torkham to Taftan is > 1000 km. Although considered by some quarters to be "Aryan" or "IE", it is unclear if they were not some mixture with Afghan/central Asian there.
These two populations dominate the culture and genetics of India. It is unknown how to to make the connection between these two populations and ANI, in the absence of early skeleton DNA (yet).
In contrast, the origins of ASI are unclear. The neolothic herders of India are located in a few places in Deccan. It is unclear if the tribals arrived in India before 3000 BC. In spite of continuous search for Dravidans, the population numbers before the arrival of two populations is unclear, and believed to be small.
I believe the question is why the Aryan influence in Indian population genetics is smaller than expected, given the lack of population centers before 2000 BC in most of India.Replies: @Karl Zimmerman, @fake
I’ve been reading some comments on Eurogenes which suggest there is evidence from data in the new paper that ASI was not 100% East Eurasian, but had something else mixed in. Morphologically speaking, this would make sense. Even the most ASI-heavy tribals today, like the Panaya, look very different in terms of their morphology than Andaman Islanders or Semang. This is despite the level of ANI admixture into these groups being roughly identical to the European admixture into African Americans. Of course some traits may have been subject to later selection and drift. But it’s also plausible if ASI did move into India from the East there was some other group with West Eurasian or Basal Eurasian affinities which was was admixed into ASI on a minor level.
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/ch23.htm
The writers of the Vedas were apparently aware of the axial precession (a ~26,000 year cycle) long before the Greeks. Axial precession would have had a substantial effect on farming communities. There is a slight eccentricity in the Earth's orbit which, when combined with axial precession creates a climactic cycle of 21,000 years. This creates a scenario where the Earth is closer to the sun for one shorter solstice, and further from the sun for the other, longer solstice. If the northern hemisphere is pointed towards the sun during the longer solstice, the summers and winters will be mild. If the northern hemisphere is pointed away from the sun during the long solstice, the weather will be much more extreme, with long intense winters.
Tracking the movement of the sun through the zodiac would have allowed the priestly class of ancient societies a greater ability to predict the length and severity of the seasons. I believe this was the true purpose of megalithic stone structures that have been seen throughout antiquity. A stone obelisk would have cast a shadow, varying in length and passing through different positions of the stone circle during different seasons. There also may have been further symbolism where the obelisk represented the male phallus, and the stone circle, or a vesica pisces represented the female. There are instances of this style of architecture seen in many areas around the globe, from Washington DC with the Washington monument, in ancient Egypt with Cleopatra's needle, in the Vatican with St. Peter's square, and others.
Knowledge of these very long astronomical cycles seems to necessitate the transmission of an unbroken cultural history over many generations. Perhaps the ancient cultures were more advanced than modern scholarship would like to credit them.
The Proto Indo European religion may have been the precursor the Vedic religion. From what I've gathered, this would have centered around the dualistic twin gods Yama/Yami and the brother Manu. Further back, prehistoric peoples may have possessed a fair amount of knowledge of astronomy. Michael Rappengluck has published some interesting papers on prehistoric religions and their relation to Astronomy:
http://www.infis.org/downloads/mr1999aenglpdf.pdf
http://www.infis.org/downloads/mr1997cenglpdf.pdf
http://www.infis.org/downloads/mr2000aenglpdf.pdf
Forgive me, I have a dumb question on genetics and an internet search didn't reveal any clear answers, so I was hoping someone here could enlighten me. My understanding is that there are haplogroups related to male and female chromosomes as Y and mitochondrial. I can understand how the mitochondrial DNA can be comprised of multiple haplogroups over time, as females inherit the X chromosomes from both their fathers and mothers.
What I don't understand is how people can possess multiple Y haplogroups. If a male inherits the Y chromosome from his father only, should his Y haplogroup not be a carbon copy of his father's? I understand Y haplogroups may undergo changes, but should not that change be reflected in the son? Thank youReplies: @Tobus
I can understand how the mitochondrial DNA can be comprised of multiple haplogroups over time, as females inherit the X chromosomes from both their fathers and mothers
Mitochondrial DNA is in the mitochondria, not the X chromosome, and both males and females get their mitochondria solely from their mother.
If a male inherits the Y chromosome from his father only, should his Y haplogroup not be a carbon copy of his father’s? I understand Y haplogroups may undergo changes, but should not that change be reflected in the son?
Yes the change will be reflected in the son, but it will *only* be reflected in the son (and the son’s sons etc), not in anyone else’s sons. Ten thousands years down the track we can use this paricular change to identify all of this man’s great-great-great-etc. grandsons. That’s what “haplogroup” means – a set of mutations that uniquely distinguish one lineage from another.
Because there is an unbroken line of father to son in the Y-DNA, and mother to child in the mtDNA, we can use the mutations accumulated along the way (“haplogroups”) to construct a tree (“phylogeny”) of who is related to who, stretching way back in time. In nearly every population there is more than one founding male and female ancestor, as well as admixture from other populations, so we see multiple haplogroups in today’s populations – any particular individual will only have one haplogroup each of Y/mtDNA however.
Hope that clears things up a bit for you.
What confused me in the past was that when referring to population genetics, often I've seen the Y haplogroup described as a mix (part R1b, part R1a, part I, etc).
From what you've described, this actually means that a portion of the population study is exclusively R1b, another is excuslively part R1a, another I, etc. Is this correct?Replies: @Rick
Mitochondrial DNA is in the mitochondria, not the X chromosome, and both males and females get their mitochondria solely from their mother.
If a male inherits the Y chromosome from his father only, should his Y haplogroup not be a carbon copy of his father’s? I understand Y haplogroups may undergo changes, but should not that change be reflected in the son?
Yes the change will be reflected in the son, but it will *only* be reflected in the son (and the son's sons etc), not in anyone else's sons. Ten thousands years down the track we can use this paricular change to identify all of this man's great-great-great-etc. grandsons. That's what "haplogroup" means - a set of mutations that uniquely distinguish one lineage from another.
Because there is an unbroken line of father to son in the Y-DNA, and mother to child in the mtDNA, we can use the mutations accumulated along the way ("haplogroups") to construct a tree ("phylogeny") of who is related to who, stretching way back in time. In nearly every population there is more than one founding male and female ancestor, as well as admixture from other populations, so we see multiple haplogroups in today's populations - any particular individual will only have one haplogroup each of Y/mtDNA however.
Hope that clears things up a bit for you.Replies: @undefined
Thank you Tobus. That was an insightful post.
What confused me in the past was that when referring to population genetics, often I’ve seen the Y haplogroup described as a mix (part R1b, part R1a, part I, etc).
From what you’ve described, this actually means that a portion of the population study is exclusively R1b, another is excuslively part R1a, another I, etc. Is this correct?
You should find some kind of very basic genetics textbook. In a week you will know twice as much as you do now.
What confused me in the past was that when referring to population genetics, often I've seen the Y haplogroup described as a mix (part R1b, part R1a, part I, etc).
From what you've described, this actually means that a portion of the population study is exclusively R1b, another is excuslively part R1a, another I, etc. Is this correct?Replies: @Rick
Exactly.
You should find some kind of very basic genetics textbook. In a week you will know twice as much as you do now.
Not exactly translations, but I find Roberto Calasso’s interpretative work on Rg Veda and paraphernalia interesting from the point of view of elucidating the mindset(set of) that went into composing them. Found ‘Ka’ and ‘Ardor’ useful on those counts.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/
That site also has Max Mueller version, but that one is incomprehensible because Herr Mueller spends incredible amounts of time comparing translations.
You can read and see if it provides any insight into Indo-European. I contend that it does not, and appears to be fanciful verses.Replies: @omarali50, @AspP
Somebody mentioned axial precession, likewise, the long length of the dawn and later the awareness that it had become shorter than in the past, the worry about snow and extremely cold winters, the observations of mud volcanoes are all valuable bits of the puzzle.
Harappan civilization is a phase in a series of events that started with agriculture at 6500 BC, ending in two civilizational phases, namely, 2600-1900 BC and late harappan, 1900-1300 BC. Its interaction with East-zagros and Oman is well known and could be related to having origins and continuous gene flow from East of Zagros.
The period after 1800 BC is the earliest entry of steppe people (albeit localized in Afghanistan and Central Asia) into India. They are believe to have entered from Afghanistan, not Baluchistan. The distance from Torkham to Taftan is > 1000 km. Although considered by some quarters to be "Aryan" or "IE", it is unclear if they were not some mixture with Afghan/central Asian there.
These two populations dominate the culture and genetics of India. It is unknown how to to make the connection between these two populations and ANI, in the absence of early skeleton DNA (yet).
In contrast, the origins of ASI are unclear. The neolothic herders of India are located in a few places in Deccan. It is unclear if the tribals arrived in India before 3000 BC. In spite of continuous search for Dravidans, the population numbers before the arrival of two populations is unclear, and believed to be small.
I believe the question is why the Aryan influence in Indian population genetics is smaller than expected, given the lack of population centers before 2000 BC in most of India.Replies: @Karl Zimmerman, @fake
Hey vijay, are the baloch and brahui the the closest relatives of the first indian farmers, who were perserved by the suleiman mountains and deserts?
Bad stuff going down in Bangladesh. Earlier today, a Hindu priest killed by a knife armed gang in his temple. Later, a major gunfight and hostage situation in progress at a cafe for which ISIS is claiming responsibility in a neighborhood near many embassies.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/01/asia/bangladesh-dhaka-shooting/index.html