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Open Thread, 12/6/2015

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71+K3llKhVL The banana is in the news again. You won’t be surprised about the topic if you read Dan Koeppel’s Banana: The Fate of the Fruit That Changed the World. As you may already know, the banana that we eat today was resistant the Panama disease which took out Gros Michel variety, which was the dominant one before 1960. I’m mildly hopefully that breeders will figure something out, technology is changing fast now. But, one interesting thing I learned is that artificial banana flavor, which most people are not impressed by, actually might resemble the Gros Michel pretty well. It’s just that two generations have come to think of the waxy and more astringent Cavendish as banana qua banana.

Saudi Arabia is a problem. They’re going to execute a Sri Lankan maid for adultery by stoning. The nation seems to have played in a role in radicalizin Tashfeen Malik. The vast majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. But here’s the question: what do we do with our ally? Invade and replace the monarchy with a democracy? Here’s a sad prediction: the outcome will be worse than what we’ve got now!

After 60 Years, B-52s Still Dominate U.S. Fleet. The article claims that some of them are going to be used until 2040! Attempts to replace them have failed. Why? Perhaps the B-52 is just a optimal design for the sort of missions it undertakes.

VW Destroys Myth of Efficient Germans.

Can Everyone Tell I’m Skinny-Fat?

In Utah Feud Over ‘Dirty’ Sodas, Flavored Darts Are Fired.

 
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  1. I’ve always wondered how the Cavendish’s commercial predecessor tasted. Now I guess next time I buy a box of Runts (which is never), I’ll savor the yellow ones to satisfy my curiosity. Funny how our groceries have evolved. Speaking of runts, commercial chickens were diminutive forms of their current selves until the ’50s. Apparently there was some sort of contest ran to make the perfect chicken. (At least I think I recall reading that somewhere). http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breeding-farming-boilers-giant

    The Saudis need to run out of oil. They will revert back to irrelevant Bedouin. The Arab world has regressed since their ascendancy and for some odd reason the USA loves to facilitate this. Forty years ago and no form of Islamic politics had any pull in any Arab country outside the Gulf. Thirty years ago wearing hijab was still out of the norm across Egypt, N. Africa and the Levant. Today, well, wahhabis have left their mark on the entirety of Arab muslim psyche, even the moderate Muslims. America is in no small way an agent in this. Bringing this back to the point, I really can’t wait for their reserves to run dry. Indicting US officials for sucking their dicks would be nice too.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    @Boy, Saudis are Lame

    The Saudis need to run out of oil.

    no, the issue is once they don't have enuf oil to subsidize their welfare state they are fucked. peter turchin has written about this. the 2020s look scary because of their demographic hump. even with higher oil prices it looks like it'll be hard to sustain.

    Today, well, wahhabis have left their mark on the entirety of Arab muslim psyche, even the moderate Muslims.

    as a proximate aspect, i think there is something right about the unified theory of wahhabi influence. but, people overdue it. veiling was common among muslim elites before the mid-20th century, and some of the non-wahabbi groups are pretty regressive. in situ reformist movements existed outside of arabia; the deobandis started around the same time. and sufi orders like nasqshbandiya were associated with military wings.

    Replies: @Boy, Saudis are Lame

  2. After 60 Years, B-52s Still Dominate U.S. Fleet. The article claims that some of them are going to be used until 2040! Attempts to replace them have failed. Why? Perhaps the B-52 is just a optimal design for the sort of missions it undertakes.

    Another oldie whose usefulness has outlived the expectations of those pushing for the latest and the greatest is the A-10.

    Simple, rugged, and big (even if slow and low tech) have great advantages in war that are often underestimated by peacetime theorists, designers, planners, and procurement specialists.

    • Replies: @Walter Sobchak
    @Twinkie

    Well, the Air Force has taken 3 major shots at replacing the B52.

    The first was the B70 project in the late 1950s and early 1960s. The prototype was a six engine mach 3+ craft capable of flying at altitudes over 20 km. It was abandoned in the 1960s as too expensive and too vulnerable.

    Next came the swing wing B1, in the 70s and 80s. Started and stopped a couple of times due to cost and strategic issues, the project resulted in a fleet of what is now 63 airplanes. They received a lot of use in the Middle East in the past couple of decades. Ground forces like them because they can bring the meat very quickly.

    The next try was the stealthy B2 flying wing. It has been very successful, but the AF cut off purchases due to cost. Its operational costs are also astronomical. No more than half the fleet of 20 is available at anyone time because of maintenance requirements.

    A few weeks ago, DoD announced that it had awarded a contract to develop and acquire the B3.

    Long Range Strike Bomber: Northrop Grumman wins contract for new stealth aircraft
    http://www.stripes.com/news/long-range-strike-bomber-northrop-grumman-wins-contract-for-new-stealth-aircraft-1.375425

    Very little has been publicly disclosed about the proposed airplane. The Air Force will pay $564 million per bomber for the first 21 aircraft. Research and development for the project will be an additional $23.5 billion.

    The cost per bomber is high, but airplanes are generally expensive. A civilian analogue of a long range bomber is Boeing's 777-300ER. Brand new, one will set you back $320 million.

    On the other hand, the Air Force has failed so dramatically with the F135 program, that it is right to be concerned about yet another try at producing the next high tech gee wiz airplane.

    If I ran the zoo, I would start by firing every one who had any involvement in Air Force contracting during the last 30 years. I would terminate the F135 and B3 programs. I would tell the new contracting officers that their job is to take existing, on the shelf technology, and get it in the air quickly and cheaply.

    The B52 would be replaced by updated versions of the B1 or a sub-sonic plane based on the old B52, or on other in service civilian or military airframes.

    The continued use of the B52 is a testament both to its original good design, and to the Air Force's ongoing inability to effectively specify and contract for a replacement. The Air Force has been far too enamored of Gee Wiz, and far too unconcerned about building something that works and gets the job done.

  3. VW Destroys Myth of Efficient Germans.

    German efficiency has always been a myth rather than reality. Americans and Russians were far more efficient industrially during World War II than the Germans ever were.

    German tanks during World War II, though generally well-armed and -protected (especially the late war models), were often horribly unreliable and complicated (some late war German tanks with excellent combat ability were so unreliable that they sometimes caught fire spontaneously!). Quite a few were so heavily built that they had to be transported by special vehicles and could not cross many bridges. And they were rarely built efficiently, meaning they were very costly to build.

    In the mean time, the American automotive industry at the time was without peer in reliability, efficiency, and economy of scale. Our tank designs were less than adequate – often poorly protected and armed – but they were exceedingly reliable mechanically and were produced in enormous quantities. Much of what we today attribute to Japanese (and Korean) industrial precision and efficiency were derived from American practices during World War II and the immediate post war years, which regrettably atrophied while our rising economic rivals first copied and then improved those practices.

  4. I still have fond memories of lying on my back on the beach in Guam and watching the B52s taking off above me. That close, from that angle, they are hugely impressive.

  5. Saudi Arabia is no more our ally then China is. Both of them have exploited our covetousness. Both used it to gain wealth which which to oppose us. In order for us to have cheap goods we built up the Chinese economy. Now they use that wealth to build up a military to challenge us in the Pacific.
    The House of Saud is intimately connected with the Wahhabi doctrine. Saudi funds were used to build Wahhabi schools teaching throughout the Islamic world.. Which teaching has formed the groundwork for this most conservative Islamic doctrine to take hold. It is the basis for ISIS and AQ.
    The answer to the Saudi problem is to treat them as our enemy. Which is what they are. But this would result in higher gas prices. So it will never happen in the US. We choose the mess of pottage each and every time.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    @aeolius

    Saudi Arabia is no more our ally then China is.

    the house of saud is our ally. they play a dangerous game, but these people are total hypocrites. the alliance with the wahhabis is real, but they clamp down on them when they get out of line

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhwan_Revolt

    of course, part of it is that the saudi elite pays off western elites to curry favor and goodwill.

  6. What is the effective population size of the major racial groups ? (including khoi/mbutu/australian.. etc)

    I know that it takes a long time for genetic diversity to increase in a population but is there any evidence the effective population size of humans beings has increased excluding admixture from other human groups(neanderthals)? How about for human subgroups? Sub- artic native americans are estimated to have been descended from 2 or maybe 3 very small founding populations. Because if not and the effective population size of a group like the kiche mayan (i know modern mayan are admixed) is around ~200 wouldn’t it make them as inbred as the amish?

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    @Bao Jiankang

    What is the effective population size of the major racial groups ? (including khoi/mbutu/australian.. etc)

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-least-bottlenecked-humans-of-all/

    ~1000 is rule of thumb for all non-africans. ~10,000 for some african groups.

    inbreeding, depending on the conditions, is not nearly as much of a problem as you think even at N's as long as 100. the average outbred non-african has no major issues. whether their genetic load is a problem is still an open question, with various opinions. but it tells you that long term effec pop of 1000 is manageable for large mammals.

  7. Does anyone know a good book about the peoples around the Gulf of Aden/Horn of Africa? Especially for ancient/medieval history.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    @Hokie

    i'd be curious too.

  8. Here’s a sad prediction: the outcome will be worse than what we’ve got now!

    That’s the cruel joke, isn’t it? If anything, whatever replaces the Monarchy will be even worse at least in the short term than the Monarchy in terms of human rights, sponsorship of extremist religion, and so forth. It’s a just a very conservative country with a very powerful, dangerous clergy.

    Honestly, we need the country to run out of oil. That will actually force changes upon them, once the regime actually has to improve things if they want to stay prosperous and powerful.

    In Utah Feud Over ‘Dirty’ Sodas, Flavored Darts Are Fired.

    I live in Utah, and I am super sad that all this dirty, dirty soda action is happening in towns 50-60 miles south of where I live. It’s a huge bummer – do I really want to drive that far just to try out soda? I mean, I’ve considered driving a 3-4 hour round-trip up to Logan, Utah just so I could get some extra-butterfat Aggie mint ice cream.

  9. Is Saudi Arabia really a problem? It seems to me that porous borders and lax immigration policies and enforcement are the problem. Its domestic judicial system doesn’t seem that relevant.

  10. Where are the normal Stormfront links? I come to this blog for the white supremacy, not science and foreign policy.

  11. Maybe it would have been better if Saudi Arabia would have been kind of colonized and the oil would have been distributed among the big world powers, without giving the Sheikhs money for it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Erik Sieven

    I often have fantasies about that along similar lines...of occupying Saudi-Arabia and dividing its oil among the US, Europe, Russia, India and China...and any resistance from Saudis would be crushed mercilessly. But unfortunately that's just a fantasy...any invasion and occupation of Saudi-Arabia by non-Muslims would probably mean permanent enmity between the occupying powers and the entire Muslim world. Probably not worth it.
    In any case, Saudi-Arabia is allied with Pakistan...who knows, maybe the Pakistanis already have stationed some of their nukes there. There doesn't seem to be an any easy solution (though it would be nice if Western politicians at least stopped pretending the Saudis are "allies" or "partners").

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  12. I recommend everyone read the Banana book. Read it fairly recently and was stunned at how interesting a book on a fruit could be. It is especially interesting concerning the political side.

  13. German_reader says:
    @Erik Sieven
    Maybe it would have been better if Saudi Arabia would have been kind of colonized and the oil would have been distributed among the big world powers, without giving the Sheikhs money for it.

    Replies: @German_reader

    I often have fantasies about that along similar lines…of occupying Saudi-Arabia and dividing its oil among the US, Europe, Russia, India and China…and any resistance from Saudis would be crushed mercilessly. But unfortunately that’s just a fantasy…any invasion and occupation of Saudi-Arabia by non-Muslims would probably mean permanent enmity between the occupying powers and the entire Muslim world. Probably not worth it.
    In any case, Saudi-Arabia is allied with Pakistan…who knows, maybe the Pakistanis already have stationed some of their nukes there. There doesn’t seem to be an any easy solution (though it would be nice if Western politicians at least stopped pretending the Saudis are “allies” or “partners”).

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    @German_reader

    remember the fantasies about a pro-israel iraq in the early 2000s? that is recent enough that we should all be cautious. or how about a libya without qadaffi?

    Replies: @German_reader

  14. A nation or movement with a strong leader is capable of dramatic turnabouts in policy.

    The Chechens went from vowing to destroy Russia, to proclaiming that they would lay down their lives for Putin in just a few years because a deal was negotiated with their top leadership.

    Japan went from trying to conquer Asia and the Pacific and destroying the U.S. Navy to disavowing war and adopting U.S. cultural practices from baseball to comic books in a matter of years, because their monarch was able to turn the country around on a dime.

    Under the right circumstances, the Saudi Arabian monarchy could do the same thing.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    @ohwilleke

    A nation or movement with a strong leader is capable of dramatic turnabouts in policy.


    saudi arabia is not a nation. that's where the argument falters.

    Replies: @ohwilleke

  15. Hamilton College Students Demand Free-Speech Ban and Want White Faculty Out of Leadership.

    henry harpendings’ alma mater. this is mostly rich kids, etc. the types who might become iBankers. this sort of brazen attitude reminds me of goldman sachs. etc. after 2008. no shame in their game. are they preparing for total impunity?

  16. @Boy, Saudis are Lame
    I've always wondered how the Cavendish's commercial predecessor tasted. Now I guess next time I buy a box of Runts (which is never), I'll savor the yellow ones to satisfy my curiosity. Funny how our groceries have evolved. Speaking of runts, commercial chickens were diminutive forms of their current selves until the '50s. Apparently there was some sort of contest ran to make the perfect chicken. (At least I think I recall reading that somewhere). http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breeding-farming-boilers-giant

    The Saudis need to run out of oil. They will revert back to irrelevant Bedouin. The Arab world has regressed since their ascendancy and for some odd reason the USA loves to facilitate this. Forty years ago and no form of Islamic politics had any pull in any Arab country outside the Gulf. Thirty years ago wearing hijab was still out of the norm across Egypt, N. Africa and the Levant. Today, well, wahhabis have left their mark on the entirety of Arab muslim psyche, even the moderate Muslims. America is in no small way an agent in this. Bringing this back to the point, I really can't wait for their reserves to run dry. Indicting US officials for sucking their dicks would be nice too.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    The Saudis need to run out of oil.

    no, the issue is once they don’t have enuf oil to subsidize their welfare state they are fucked. peter turchin has written about this. the 2020s look scary because of their demographic hump. even with higher oil prices it looks like it’ll be hard to sustain.

    Today, well, wahhabis have left their mark on the entirety of Arab muslim psyche, even the moderate Muslims.

    as a proximate aspect, i think there is something right about the unified theory of wahhabi influence. but, people overdue it. veiling was common among muslim elites before the mid-20th century, and some of the non-wahabbi groups are pretty regressive. in situ reformist movements existed outside of arabia; the deobandis started around the same time. and sufi orders like nasqshbandiya were associated with military wings.

    • Replies: @Boy, Saudis are Lame
    @Razib Khan

    While it's true that wahhabist imperialism has erased indigenous Muslim culture from Mindanao to Mumbai, and that Sufi heritage of Pakistan and Afghanistan is banished to history pages, I was focused strictly on Arab society and the downward trajectory it's taken in all measures in the period post-emancipation from Turk and Western colonialism. I'm more of an Arabist than an Orientalist in expertise. When pan-Arab consciousness first arose, politics and philosophy was practically devoid of religion. "Religion is for god and the land is for the people" is a very famous line from the early 20th century. And for the life of me I can't recall who coined it. I do know that if you look at the main figures in Arab nationalist history Christians and agnostics are highly over represented and the rest are secular Muslims with similar skepticism of religion. The people subscribed to it, too. It had popular support.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  17. @aeolius
    Saudi Arabia is no more our ally then China is. Both of them have exploited our covetousness. Both used it to gain wealth which which to oppose us. In order for us to have cheap goods we built up the Chinese economy. Now they use that wealth to build up a military to challenge us in the Pacific.
    The House of Saud is intimately connected with the Wahhabi doctrine. Saudi funds were used to build Wahhabi schools teaching throughout the Islamic world.. Which teaching has formed the groundwork for this most conservative Islamic doctrine to take hold. It is the basis for ISIS and AQ.
    The answer to the Saudi problem is to treat them as our enemy. Which is what they are. But this would result in higher gas prices. So it will never happen in the US. We choose the mess of pottage each and every time.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    Saudi Arabia is no more our ally then China is.

    the house of saud is our ally. they play a dangerous game, but these people are total hypocrites. the alliance with the wahhabis is real, but they clamp down on them when they get out of line

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhwan_Revolt

    of course, part of it is that the saudi elite pays off western elites to curry favor and goodwill.

  18. @ohwilleke
    A nation or movement with a strong leader is capable of dramatic turnabouts in policy.

    The Chechens went from vowing to destroy Russia, to proclaiming that they would lay down their lives for Putin in just a few years because a deal was negotiated with their top leadership.

    Japan went from trying to conquer Asia and the Pacific and destroying the U.S. Navy to disavowing war and adopting U.S. cultural practices from baseball to comic books in a matter of years, because their monarch was able to turn the country around on a dime.

    Under the right circumstances, the Saudi Arabian monarchy could do the same thing.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    A nation or movement with a strong leader is capable of dramatic turnabouts in policy.

    saudi arabia is not a nation. that’s where the argument falters.

    • Replies: @ohwilleke
    @Razib Khan

    In this context, I should have been more careful to say "country" rather than "nation" given the dual meaning of the latter word.

    Honestly, I have absolutely no doubt that the Saudi Arabian monarchy, if inclined to do so, could dramatically change the policies of that country.

    Also, while Saudi Arabia may not be a country that includes every SW Asian Arabian, it is a country in which virtually all citizens are SW Asian Arabians. It has a large foreign born population of temporary workers, but by and large they are not citizens and live in the country at its sufferance.

    There are countries, particularly in Africa, but also, e.g. Iraq, where there is not a close alignment between nation and state, but Saudi Arabia is not one of them.

    Certainly a country need not have democratic government to be a nation-state.

  19. @Bao Jiankang
    What is the effective population size of the major racial groups ? (including khoi/mbutu/australian.. etc)

    I know that it takes a long time for genetic diversity to increase in a population but is there any evidence the effective population size of humans beings has increased excluding admixture from other human groups(neanderthals)? How about for human subgroups? Sub- artic native americans are estimated to have been descended from 2 or maybe 3 very small founding populations. Because if not and the effective population size of a group like the kiche mayan (i know modern mayan are admixed) is around ~200 wouldn't it make them as inbred as the amish?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    What is the effective population size of the major racial groups ? (including khoi/mbutu/australian.. etc)

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-least-bottlenecked-humans-of-all/

    ~1000 is rule of thumb for all non-africans. ~10,000 for some african groups.

    inbreeding, depending on the conditions, is not nearly as much of a problem as you think even at N’s as long as 100. the average outbred non-african has no major issues. whether their genetic load is a problem is still an open question, with various opinions. but it tells you that long term effec pop of 1000 is manageable for large mammals.

  20. @Hokie
    Does anyone know a good book about the peoples around the Gulf of Aden/Horn of Africa? Especially for ancient/medieval history.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i’d be curious too.

  21. @Razib Khan
    @Boy, Saudis are Lame

    The Saudis need to run out of oil.

    no, the issue is once they don't have enuf oil to subsidize their welfare state they are fucked. peter turchin has written about this. the 2020s look scary because of their demographic hump. even with higher oil prices it looks like it'll be hard to sustain.

    Today, well, wahhabis have left their mark on the entirety of Arab muslim psyche, even the moderate Muslims.

    as a proximate aspect, i think there is something right about the unified theory of wahhabi influence. but, people overdue it. veiling was common among muslim elites before the mid-20th century, and some of the non-wahabbi groups are pretty regressive. in situ reformist movements existed outside of arabia; the deobandis started around the same time. and sufi orders like nasqshbandiya were associated with military wings.

    Replies: @Boy, Saudis are Lame

    While it’s true that wahhabist imperialism has erased indigenous Muslim culture from Mindanao to Mumbai, and that Sufi heritage of Pakistan and Afghanistan is banished to history pages, I was focused strictly on Arab society and the downward trajectory it’s taken in all measures in the period post-emancipation from Turk and Western colonialism. I’m more of an Arabist than an Orientalist in expertise. When pan-Arab consciousness first arose, politics and philosophy was practically devoid of religion. “Religion is for god and the land is for the people” is a very famous line from the early 20th century. And for the life of me I can’t recall who coined it. I do know that if you look at the main figures in Arab nationalist history Christians and agnostics are highly over represented and the rest are secular Muslims with similar skepticism of religion. The people subscribed to it, too. It had popular support.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    @Boy, Saudis are Lame

    While it’s true that wahhabist imperialism has erased indigenous Muslim culture from Mindanao to Mumbai, and that Sufi heritage of Pakistan and Afghanistan is banished to history pages

    that's an overstatement. the indigenous hanafi tradition in south asia is vital. but it's not touchy-feely liberal.

    I do know that if you look at the main figures in Arab nationalist history Christians and agnostics are highly over represented and the rest are secular Muslims with similar skepticism of religion.

    look at the trajectory of nationalism in pakistan or italy or the USA. the original liberal nationalists were pretty secular, with heterodox to no religious views. but over time as nationalism becomes indigenized and popularized the leaders start to reflect the more conservative mores and beliefs of the population. hopefully the population liberalizes enough that this isn't a major problem. but obviously that isn't true in the case of pakistan.

    Replies: @Boy, Saudis are Lame

  22. @German_reader
    @Erik Sieven

    I often have fantasies about that along similar lines...of occupying Saudi-Arabia and dividing its oil among the US, Europe, Russia, India and China...and any resistance from Saudis would be crushed mercilessly. But unfortunately that's just a fantasy...any invasion and occupation of Saudi-Arabia by non-Muslims would probably mean permanent enmity between the occupying powers and the entire Muslim world. Probably not worth it.
    In any case, Saudi-Arabia is allied with Pakistan...who knows, maybe the Pakistanis already have stationed some of their nukes there. There doesn't seem to be an any easy solution (though it would be nice if Western politicians at least stopped pretending the Saudis are "allies" or "partners").

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    remember the fantasies about a pro-israel iraq in the early 2000s? that is recent enough that we should all be cautious. or how about a libya without qadaffi?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Razib Khan

    "remember the fantasies about a pro-israel iraq in the early 2000s?"

    Oh absolutely, I will never forget that Israeli historian Dan Diner claimed Iraq would turn into a democracy because it had a tradition of "pluralism" (don't know what he meant by that, maybe it was an euphemism for "isn't a real nation, has many mutually hostile sects and ethnicities who hate each other"), that seemed dubious even to my 19-year old self in 2003. I was opposed to the Iraq war in 2003, also thought Libya was stupid and am glad there hasn't been an intervention against Assad yet. Only war in the Islamic world I thought was necessary was Afghanistan, and even that didn't turn out well.
    In general, I'd prefer to have as little to do with the Islamic world as possible, that is quarantine them off, let them fight out their 30-years war to the bitter end, play different Islamic sects off against each other (like Kissinger said about Iran-Iraq), only admit non-Islamic minorities and the occasional atheist as refugees to the West. I do worry though somewhat about nuclear proliferation...if Saudi Arabia gets nukes from Pakistan, that could be very bad (especially if the monarchy is eventually overturned by Islamists). And Turkey seems also to run a nuclear program that could potentially lead them to get nukes...now Turkey is certainly no Saudi Arabia, but I wouldn't want people like Erdogan to acquire nuclear weapons either.

    Replies: @Kamran

  23. @Boy, Saudis are Lame
    @Razib Khan

    While it's true that wahhabist imperialism has erased indigenous Muslim culture from Mindanao to Mumbai, and that Sufi heritage of Pakistan and Afghanistan is banished to history pages, I was focused strictly on Arab society and the downward trajectory it's taken in all measures in the period post-emancipation from Turk and Western colonialism. I'm more of an Arabist than an Orientalist in expertise. When pan-Arab consciousness first arose, politics and philosophy was practically devoid of religion. "Religion is for god and the land is for the people" is a very famous line from the early 20th century. And for the life of me I can't recall who coined it. I do know that if you look at the main figures in Arab nationalist history Christians and agnostics are highly over represented and the rest are secular Muslims with similar skepticism of religion. The people subscribed to it, too. It had popular support.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    While it’s true that wahhabist imperialism has erased indigenous Muslim culture from Mindanao to Mumbai, and that Sufi heritage of Pakistan and Afghanistan is banished to history pages

    that’s an overstatement. the indigenous hanafi tradition in south asia is vital. but it’s not touchy-feely liberal.

    I do know that if you look at the main figures in Arab nationalist history Christians and agnostics are highly over represented and the rest are secular Muslims with similar skepticism of religion.

    look at the trajectory of nationalism in pakistan or italy or the USA. the original liberal nationalists were pretty secular, with heterodox to no religious views. but over time as nationalism becomes indigenized and popularized the leaders start to reflect the more conservative mores and beliefs of the population. hopefully the population liberalizes enough that this isn’t a major problem. but obviously that isn’t true in the case of pakistan.

    • Replies: @Boy, Saudis are Lame
    @Razib Khan

    Fair enough. It seems there is something essentially reactionary about any nationalist movement; whether it's a revolutionary outfit concerned with liberation, or a political party concerned with national cohesion. Just being the hobbyist I am of Arab culture I'm very fond of and nostalgic for Arab nationalism as it afforded some very brilliant and I'd say beautiful forms cultural expression. (From Marcel Khalife to Mahmoud Darwish to Ahmad Kabbour to Fairuz to Myriam Fares).

  24. German_reader says:
    @Razib Khan
    @German_reader

    remember the fantasies about a pro-israel iraq in the early 2000s? that is recent enough that we should all be cautious. or how about a libya without qadaffi?

    Replies: @German_reader

    “remember the fantasies about a pro-israel iraq in the early 2000s?”

    Oh absolutely, I will never forget that Israeli historian Dan Diner claimed Iraq would turn into a democracy because it had a tradition of “pluralism” (don’t know what he meant by that, maybe it was an euphemism for “isn’t a real nation, has many mutually hostile sects and ethnicities who hate each other”), that seemed dubious even to my 19-year old self in 2003. I was opposed to the Iraq war in 2003, also thought Libya was stupid and am glad there hasn’t been an intervention against Assad yet. Only war in the Islamic world I thought was necessary was Afghanistan, and even that didn’t turn out well.
    In general, I’d prefer to have as little to do with the Islamic world as possible, that is quarantine them off, let them fight out their 30-years war to the bitter end, play different Islamic sects off against each other (like Kissinger said about Iran-Iraq), only admit non-Islamic minorities and the occasional atheist as refugees to the West. I do worry though somewhat about nuclear proliferation…if Saudi Arabia gets nukes from Pakistan, that could be very bad (especially if the monarchy is eventually overturned by Islamists). And Turkey seems also to run a nuclear program that could potentially lead them to get nukes…now Turkey is certainly no Saudi Arabia, but I wouldn’t want people like Erdogan to acquire nuclear weapons either.

    • Replies: @Kamran
    @German_reader

    "only admit non-Islamic minorities and the occasional atheist as refugees to the West."

    Prepare for a deluge of "occasion atheists."

    And iranian christians.

  25. @Razib Khan
    @Boy, Saudis are Lame

    While it’s true that wahhabist imperialism has erased indigenous Muslim culture from Mindanao to Mumbai, and that Sufi heritage of Pakistan and Afghanistan is banished to history pages

    that's an overstatement. the indigenous hanafi tradition in south asia is vital. but it's not touchy-feely liberal.

    I do know that if you look at the main figures in Arab nationalist history Christians and agnostics are highly over represented and the rest are secular Muslims with similar skepticism of religion.

    look at the trajectory of nationalism in pakistan or italy or the USA. the original liberal nationalists were pretty secular, with heterodox to no religious views. but over time as nationalism becomes indigenized and popularized the leaders start to reflect the more conservative mores and beliefs of the population. hopefully the population liberalizes enough that this isn't a major problem. but obviously that isn't true in the case of pakistan.

    Replies: @Boy, Saudis are Lame

    Fair enough. It seems there is something essentially reactionary about any nationalist movement; whether it’s a revolutionary outfit concerned with liberation, or a political party concerned with national cohesion. Just being the hobbyist I am of Arab culture I’m very fond of and nostalgic for Arab nationalism as it afforded some very brilliant and I’d say beautiful forms cultural expression. (From Marcel Khalife to Mahmoud Darwish to Ahmad Kabbour to Fairuz to Myriam Fares).

  26. @German_reader
    @Razib Khan

    "remember the fantasies about a pro-israel iraq in the early 2000s?"

    Oh absolutely, I will never forget that Israeli historian Dan Diner claimed Iraq would turn into a democracy because it had a tradition of "pluralism" (don't know what he meant by that, maybe it was an euphemism for "isn't a real nation, has many mutually hostile sects and ethnicities who hate each other"), that seemed dubious even to my 19-year old self in 2003. I was opposed to the Iraq war in 2003, also thought Libya was stupid and am glad there hasn't been an intervention against Assad yet. Only war in the Islamic world I thought was necessary was Afghanistan, and even that didn't turn out well.
    In general, I'd prefer to have as little to do with the Islamic world as possible, that is quarantine them off, let them fight out their 30-years war to the bitter end, play different Islamic sects off against each other (like Kissinger said about Iran-Iraq), only admit non-Islamic minorities and the occasional atheist as refugees to the West. I do worry though somewhat about nuclear proliferation...if Saudi Arabia gets nukes from Pakistan, that could be very bad (especially if the monarchy is eventually overturned by Islamists). And Turkey seems also to run a nuclear program that could potentially lead them to get nukes...now Turkey is certainly no Saudi Arabia, but I wouldn't want people like Erdogan to acquire nuclear weapons either.

    Replies: @Kamran

    “only admit non-Islamic minorities and the occasional atheist as refugees to the West.”

    Prepare for a deluge of “occasion atheists.”

    And iranian christians.

  27. @Razib Khan
    @ohwilleke

    A nation or movement with a strong leader is capable of dramatic turnabouts in policy.


    saudi arabia is not a nation. that's where the argument falters.

    Replies: @ohwilleke

    In this context, I should have been more careful to say “country” rather than “nation” given the dual meaning of the latter word.

    Honestly, I have absolutely no doubt that the Saudi Arabian monarchy, if inclined to do so, could dramatically change the policies of that country.

    Also, while Saudi Arabia may not be a country that includes every SW Asian Arabian, it is a country in which virtually all citizens are SW Asian Arabians. It has a large foreign born population of temporary workers, but by and large they are not citizens and live in the country at its sufferance.

    There are countries, particularly in Africa, but also, e.g. Iraq, where there is not a close alignment between nation and state, but Saudi Arabia is not one of them.

    Certainly a country need not have democratic government to be a nation-state.

  28. @Twinkie

    After 60 Years, B-52s Still Dominate U.S. Fleet. The article claims that some of them are going to be used until 2040! Attempts to replace them have failed. Why? Perhaps the B-52 is just a optimal design for the sort of missions it undertakes.
     
    Another oldie whose usefulness has outlived the expectations of those pushing for the latest and the greatest is the A-10.

    Simple, rugged, and big (even if slow and low tech) have great advantages in war that are often underestimated by peacetime theorists, designers, planners, and procurement specialists.

    Replies: @Walter Sobchak

    Well, the Air Force has taken 3 major shots at replacing the B52.

    The first was the B70 project in the late 1950s and early 1960s. The prototype was a six engine mach 3+ craft capable of flying at altitudes over 20 km. It was abandoned in the 1960s as too expensive and too vulnerable.

    Next came the swing wing B1, in the 70s and 80s. Started and stopped a couple of times due to cost and strategic issues, the project resulted in a fleet of what is now 63 airplanes. They received a lot of use in the Middle East in the past couple of decades. Ground forces like them because they can bring the meat very quickly.

    The next try was the stealthy B2 flying wing. It has been very successful, but the AF cut off purchases due to cost. Its operational costs are also astronomical. No more than half the fleet of 20 is available at anyone time because of maintenance requirements.

    A few weeks ago, DoD announced that it had awarded a contract to develop and acquire the B3.

    Long Range Strike Bomber: Northrop Grumman wins contract for new stealth aircraft
    http://www.stripes.com/news/long-range-strike-bomber-northrop-grumman-wins-contract-for-new-stealth-aircraft-1.375425

    Very little has been publicly disclosed about the proposed airplane. The Air Force will pay $564 million per bomber for the first 21 aircraft. Research and development for the project will be an additional $23.5 billion.

    The cost per bomber is high, but airplanes are generally expensive. A civilian analogue of a long range bomber is Boeing’s 777-300ER. Brand new, one will set you back $320 million.

    On the other hand, the Air Force has failed so dramatically with the F135 program, that it is right to be concerned about yet another try at producing the next high tech gee wiz airplane.

    If I ran the zoo, I would start by firing every one who had any involvement in Air Force contracting during the last 30 years. I would terminate the F135 and B3 programs. I would tell the new contracting officers that their job is to take existing, on the shelf technology, and get it in the air quickly and cheaply.

    The B52 would be replaced by updated versions of the B1 or a sub-sonic plane based on the old B52, or on other in service civilian or military airframes.

    The continued use of the B52 is a testament both to its original good design, and to the Air Force’s ongoing inability to effectively specify and contract for a replacement. The Air Force has been far too enamored of Gee Wiz, and far too unconcerned about building something that works and gets the job done.

  29. A thought I had – if an ape lost it’s leg strength would it have to walk upright for balance?

  30. As someone who lives in a place where multiple varietals of banana are grown, it always struck me how the Cavendish was chosen as a replacement. It’s the most bland one, in my opinion. That said, they are large, and tend not to have unsightly spots or blemishes.

    I’ve never had the Gros Michel. Whatever disease took them out, did a very very thorough job of it, as I’ve tried some odd ones.

    My favorite one? The cooking banana, which is sort of related to the plantain. Nothing like it being fried up with butter and cinnamon, eggs and bacon for an island breakfast.

  31. One of the reasons that the B-52 has lasted so long is because heavy bombers spend far less time actually flying than either transports or tankers or fighters. Transports received heavy use, all year round year after year as do tankers. Fighter planes are drilled in air to air combat a great deal even though the percentage of the fighter plane fleet deployed in hostile action at any one time is small and even though actions that employ lots of fighter planes are infrequent and tend to last just a few weeks at the beginning of a conflict.

    The number of useful hours of flight time in the life of a military aircraft is about 28,000 after which metal fatigue, etc. renders them too hard to fix.

    The average B-52, despite being 49 years old or so, has only about 16,000 flight hours in the life of the aircraft, a mere 320 hours of flight time per plane per year. B-52s are used to carry out military mission only when there is a reasonable likelihood of dropping bombs on someone, and that tends to be infrequent (once air superiority is achieved fighter planes have enough payload to meet most bombing requirements and smart bombs have dramatically reduced the number of bombs that must be dropped per target, further reducing the need for large bomb payloads). And, the amount of practice drills that are required for B-52 crews is far less than the amount of practice drills required, for example, for F-16 pilots who have to learn to dog fight even though dog fights are actually exceedingly rare.

    Developers of new bombers have tended to ignore the fact that the vast majority of bombing missions are in theaters where air superiority has been achieved and the targets of the bombing have no advanced anti-aircraft weapons. If you fly high enough, you can render their anti-aircraft weapons irrelevant and smart bombs make it possible to do just that.

    This lack of connection between the demand side in military procurement and the design and build side isn’t unusual. For example, the Humvee was optimized for off road driving on the assumption that this would be a near universally needed, highly salient feature for the vehicle. But, in practice, even though the Humvees are arguably the most capable off road light wheeled trucks ever built, Humvees were actually driven on roads in the field something like 95%+ of the time or more (which is partially why IEDs were effective against them). There was a niche demand in the military for off road capable light trucks, just as there is a niche demand in the Air Force for fast, long range heavy stealth bombers. But, neither demand was nearly as great as the people procuring these systems imagined them to be.

  32. A new paper about South American genetic history, focusing on Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1005602#pgen.1005602.s003

    • Replies: @Dmitry Pruss
    @Shaikorth

    Thanks! I'm looking at the cline in the Europeans at the lower pane of Fig. 1 which implies that the European component in the Latin Americans is "even more Southern" than Spaniards or Italians. Which is kind of reminiscent of the now-closed discussion about the internal clines of non-Northern European ancestry in Italy.

    We know that Moor and Sephardi-descended Spaniards preferentially settled in the early colonies, that Southern Italians were a major part of the more recent immigration, and that Ottoman Turkey residents had sizable Latin American emigration too. All of these sources of ancestry are conflated as broadly European at a low resolution... The question has important practical implications in the clinic whenever one tries to use association results derived from the Europeans of the broadly Northern decent to predict clinical outcomes in the Latin Americans of "predominantly European ancestry". An unresolved Mid-Eastern genetic component might play havoc with the validity of the predictions...

    @Razib -


    you should put more weight on IBD than admixture. IBD uses more population informative variation (haplotype matching) than ADMIXTURE (just genotype frequencies). IBD is just harder to interpret is all. probably y fineStructure has not become more popular.
     
    what if the haplotypes come from a targeted (rather than a genome-wide) assay in blocks of say a few to a dozen SNPs in length? How to approach these data to try to reveal Maghrebi or Levantine components?
  33. @Shaikorth
    A new paper about South American genetic history, focusing on Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1005602#pgen.1005602.s003

    Replies: @Dmitry Pruss

    Thanks! I’m looking at the cline in the Europeans at the lower pane of Fig. 1 which implies that the European component in the Latin Americans is “even more Southern” than Spaniards or Italians. Which is kind of reminiscent of the now-closed discussion about the internal clines of non-Northern European ancestry in Italy.

    We know that Moor and Sephardi-descended Spaniards preferentially settled in the early colonies, that Southern Italians were a major part of the more recent immigration, and that Ottoman Turkey residents had sizable Latin American emigration too. All of these sources of ancestry are conflated as broadly European at a low resolution… The question has important practical implications in the clinic whenever one tries to use association results derived from the Europeans of the broadly Northern decent to predict clinical outcomes in the Latin Americans of “predominantly European ancestry”. An unresolved Mid-Eastern genetic component might play havoc with the validity of the predictions…

    @Razib –

    you should put more weight on IBD than admixture. IBD uses more population informative variation (haplotype matching) than ADMIXTURE (just genotype frequencies). IBD is just harder to interpret is all. probably y fineStructure has not become more popular.

    what if the haplotypes come from a targeted (rather than a genome-wide) assay in blocks of say a few to a dozen SNPs in length? How to approach these data to try to reveal Maghrebi or Levantine components?

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