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This is what I ate on Tuesday night
I am of the generation of people who purchase experiences, rather than things. OK, well, at least my bias is toward experiences, rather than things. For several years now I have had an obsession with Sichuan cuisine. I was introduced to one particular restaurant in a major American city by a Chinese (Fujian-born and bred) coworker, and now every time I am in that particular city on business I make a sojourn to that restaurant. In my fever dreams I fantasize about synthesizing Sichuan and Korean, two of my favorites.
My question: is East Asian cuisine, and in particular Chinese, simply better in some Platonic sense? If so, what are you favorite restaurants? If not, what are your favorite restaurants?
I’m trying a new Sichuan place tomorrow which has great Yelp reviews. Hope I’m not disappointed….
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I find that Sichuan spiciness is rather too overly blunt, dominating the flavor with its kick, and forming a pleasant contrast with Indian subcontinental cuisines which although also highly spicy tend to blend the various ingredients together in a sophisticated way in a way that doesn’t suppress the individual components.
tldr; Indian cuisine > Sichuan.
I’m a proponent of gastronomic essentialism. I’d say East Asian cuisine has favorable traits that make it superior in comparison to certain others. It has vibrancy in color and flavor; it has juxtaposition (think the placement of richness with heat and spice of Thai); and it has balance — with vegetables, protein, starch and fats all in good proportion.
That is, as long as you’re not eating gutter oil. And according to what I’ve read and heard, the odds are you’re consuming it if the cooking oil was manufactured/purchased in China. (Literally Upton Sinclair’s Jungle).
It’s nice, but it’s not big slabs of meat. Give me BBQ or steak.
But in the “not big slabs of meat” categoru, Sichuan, Korean and Mexican are nice.
More likely Taiwan. But it’s unlikely to be a risk if it’s an up-market restaurant.
Sichuan natives use to tell me that Sichuan was poor and overcrowded, so they evolved to dress up poor ingredients with awesome flavor.
Gotta be honest here, that looks rather greasy, and that’s actually how I remember Chinese and Southeast Asian food.
I prefer Kashmiri if I want something spicy, and I do like hot food. It’s more filling and hotter than the more eastern stuff.
Among my favourites are Teochew, Hakka, and Thai.
Bottom of my list is Filipino. It’s diabolical.
Dry garlic sauce mixed with teriyaki sauce in plain white rice, with veggie spring rolls and fried seitan/gluten. I can’t get enough.
Italian cuisine is the best there is, the best there was, and the best that there ever will be.
(to be fair, there isn't an "indian" or "chinese" cuisine either, though there are broad family similarities)Replies: @Dave
“Is East Asian cuisine, and in particular Chinese, simply better in some Platonic sense?”
Tibet is in East Asia, and tsampa consists of barley meal mixed with water and white sugar, and that’s it. Kazakhstan is in East Asia too, a serving of Kazakh cheese will take you all day to eat if your teeth don’t break first.
As for Chinese cuisine, Sturgeon’s principal is as applicable here as it is everywhere else. Koreans I have met will disagree. Chinese food is pretty much anathema to Korean expats in China.
As for restaurants, I will repeat the advice a wise Chinese elder once gave me: “Eat where the locals eat, no tourists. Be eat anywhere where you don’t have to wait for table.” Not always practical, I don’t rigorously follow it myself, but it can lead you to some amazing food.
It is very likely that individual’s taste of food reflects one’s biological background. For example, Mongolian or northern European might find any food with dairy components appealing. People of tropical origin might find spicy food appealing (due to antibiotic effect). At end, we are product of evolution to particular environment.
I will predict there will always be better food for individual or locals, but not for whole.
Obviously, some taste can be learned due to globalization. A lot of Polish and Russian fall in love with Japanese sushi. They even set up sushi menu in their own ethnic restaurants. But such cross culture learned taste will be minority and related to their own background (Russian/polish have raw fish/caviar in their own ethnic food in the first place). Raw food of meat have hard time taking off in any Chinese culture based region.
Like fashion fad, physical beauty can have learned taste component. lie repeated often enough becomes truth(to most people, unless you are Darwin or Galileo). Most human can be brain-washed. Salesmen/politicians are good at such mental manipulation of mass. Verbal ability is evolved to convince others mind.
the blandness of much of european food, at least high cuisine, is a function of fashion in the 17th century. th very spicy (black pepper) fare of the medieval period was considered unrefined, with a new focus on sauces in france. i'm skeptical of a very strong biological correlation, though there's something there (dairy is an extreme case you'd think, but MANY asian americans love cheese).Replies: @AG, @Bill M
what is this “italian cuisine” you speak of? what does sicilia have to do with genova?
(to be fair, there isn’t an “indian” or “chinese” cuisine either, though there are broad family similarities)
The general rule of thumb for those that are interested is a heavier emphasis on meat and dairy in the north and oil and seafood in the south.
Americans who have only had American style pizza, and that would be most Americans, need to try genuine Neapolitan pizza, eaten with knife and fork. Sublime.
Unfortunately, Neapolitan style is probably only available in NYC or California.
Consult the Associazione Vera Pizza Napoletana for more details, and yes, there are regulations for creating the perfect pie.Replies: @Cereal Crepist, @Anthony
I will predict there will always be better food for individual or locals, but not for whole.
Obviously, some taste can be learned due to globalization. A lot of Polish and Russian fall in love with Japanese sushi. They even set up sushi menu in their own ethnic restaurants. But such cross culture learned taste will be minority and related to their own background (Russian/polish have raw fish/caviar in their own ethnic food in the first place). Raw food of meat have hard time taking off in any Chinese culture based region.
Like fashion fad, physical beauty can have learned taste component. lie repeated often enough becomes truth(to most people, unless you are Darwin or Galileo). Most human can be brain-washed. Salesmen/politicians are good at such mental manipulation of mass. Verbal ability is evolved to convince others mind.Replies: @Razib Khan
People of tropical origin might find spicy food appealing (due to antibiotic effect).
the blandness of much of european food, at least high cuisine, is a function of fashion in the 17th century. th very spicy (black pepper) fare of the medieval period was considered unrefined, with a new focus on sauces in france. i’m skeptical of a very strong biological correlation, though there’s something there (dairy is an extreme case you’d think, but MANY asian americans love cheese).
However cities are different story due to traded goods from far away places.Replies: @AG
“I am of the generation of people who purchase experiences, rather than things.”
I hadn’t noticed a generational effect. Do you have any insight or data on this? My impression has been that younger generations are slower to start families, which presumably means we have more money to devote to consumption (and savings) in general. But I hadn’t noticed any difference in how we consume.
As for food: the biggest revelation to me in recent years is Indian food. Specifically the (North?) Indian food that my former, very religious neighbors used to share with us. They had more dietary restrictions than I had ever heard of (no meat, sure, but also no tomatoes, onions, or garlic – basically what I considered the staple flavor vegetables for cooking). Yet food was incredibly flavorful and aromatic.
Re: are some cuisines just better?
If anything is a matter of taste, it’s taste. But here’s a thought experiment: if every person on earth were raised with an exposure to every cuisine, what would happen? Would some cuisines disappear, or at least become very unpopular, upon the slow realization that, e.g., Gefilte fish just isn’t that good? For those that win out, what features explain their success?
It really is vile. I began substituting smoked salmon for GF, at our passover seders, and everybody loved it.
At the beginning, every cuisine was well represented, but as the year went by and reputations began to build with certain types of food greeted with obvious welcome, three cuisines began to be repeated, and eventually took over almost the entire repetoire: Chinese, S Indian, and Italian food.
Interestingly, ingredients from the three cuisines started to 'bleed' into each other, as well as into the rest; e.g. the 'curry' method of making liquidy stuff was taken over and toned down by some Italian friends who made truly excellent seafood soups, coconut milk and Indian spices invaded spanish paellas, and star anise from Chinese stir-fry began appearing everywhere.
So Anatoly, even though the European dominance of desserts remained unchallenged, there are some datapoints that suggest otherwise haha.
Interesting thing regarding the starches too, the most popular were rice, quinoa, pasta and unleavened dough like chapati, and bread almost disappeared by the end of the year, which makes me wonder if people truly prefer it if other starches are readily available.
I prefer european and japanese cuisines because they rely more on the qualities of ingredients and cooking while tropical cuisines mask everything with lots of herbs and spices.
I have the unproven belief that this widespread use of strong condiments in tropical cooking all around the world started as a way to mask the taste of spoiled meat, in the era before refrigeration.
Somewhat an exception from this euro-centric preference are ottoman-descended cuisines, especially greek, lebanese and turkish.
Nevertheless, I like to experiment, so when I have the opportunity I will try a Sichuan restaurant.
I hadn't noticed a generational effect. Do you have any insight or data on this? My impression has been that younger generations are slower to start families, which presumably means we have more money to devote to consumption (and savings) in general. But I hadn't noticed any difference in how we consume.
As for food: the biggest revelation to me in recent years is Indian food. Specifically the (North?) Indian food that my former, very religious neighbors used to share with us. They had more dietary restrictions than I had ever heard of (no meat, sure, but also no tomatoes, onions, or garlic - basically what I considered the staple flavor vegetables for cooking). Yet food was incredibly flavorful and aromatic.
Re: are some cuisines just better?
If anything is a matter of taste, it's taste. But here's a thought experiment: if every person on earth were raised with an exposure to every cuisine, what would happen? Would some cuisines disappear, or at least become very unpopular, upon the slow realization that, e.g., Gefilte fish just isn't that good? For those that win out, what features explain their success?Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Walter Sobchak, @Ryukendo
Hasn’t this already happened? Hamburgers! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast.
If objectivity is a possibility, I’d argue the best cuisines center around high quality, seasonal food prepared with just enough seasoning and condiments to highlight their flavor. (And personally, I’d also consider the quality of the desserts and other sweets.) You brought up the regional differences of Italian cuisine, well, that simplicity generally characterizes all Italian cuisine, except for some northern provinces. Not a fan of Sichuan cuisine, too many heavy, spicy sauces. Out of the different kinds of Chinese food I’ve tried, I think steamed dim sum are a true culinary masterpiece that could probably be universally popular.
Do you think some cuisines are simply bad, or do all cultures learn to prepare whatever foods are available to them in a palatable way? An anthropology professor who’d done ethnographic work somewhere in Papua New Guinea described the cuisine as boiling or roasting together whatever edibles were available, no seasoning, marinades, or special preparation of any kind. He found the food so inherently bad-tasting and unenjoyable, he was convinced that the locals couldn’t possibly like it themselves.
Check 11:00. It sounds that Greek Spartan has the worst tasting food (that make people want to die). But I would like to try it someday though.
Pretty much a matter of individual preferences, I suppose. Don’t see how people get the idea that one kind of cuisine could have some general advantage.
For Sichuan cuisine, I like Gongbao Jiding (Kong Pao Chicken) the most. The best I’ve eaten was in Beijing in a small restaurant on the 4th ring road. Was in Chongqing (Chungking) once & tried it in several restaurants there, but not as good. Sichuan cuisine is nice, but not as spicy as people say.
I prefer Cantonese Dim Sum. My absolute favourite in China. But there are so many different places & specialities in China, I can’t say whether I won’t find something better. Have been in China for 9 years now & still haven’t visited most provinces.
BTW, Thai food is nice, too. Spicier than Sichuan food, at least for what I tried in Bangkok.
the blandness of much of european food, at least high cuisine, is a function of fashion in the 17th century. th very spicy (black pepper) fare of the medieval period was considered unrefined, with a new focus on sauces in france. i'm skeptical of a very strong biological correlation, though there's something there (dairy is an extreme case you'd think, but MANY asian americans love cheese).Replies: @AG, @Bill M
Northern Chinese country foods are also quite bland due to lack of tropical spice. Garlic and onions are the main ingredients for flavoring which result in incredible similar taste to most northern European country food. When I touring some northern European countryside, food like Russian pierogi and German pork with sauerkraut taste almost identical to northern Chinese peasant cooking in village. Northern Chinese peasants still do not like southern Chinese food when they moved to cities as adult. They considered spicy food tasted “weird”
However cities are different story due to traded goods from far away places.
Spicy flavor from plants might function as animal repellents against rich animal diversity in tropical region from insects, birds and mammals. So spicy plants are product of biodiversity in tropical region. Obviously pepper spray is pretty good against mammals.
Do you think some cuisines are simply bad, or do all cultures learn to prepare whatever foods are available to them in a palatable way? An anthropology professor who'd done ethnographic work somewhere in Papua New Guinea described the cuisine as boiling or roasting together whatever edibles were available, no seasoning, marinades, or special preparation of any kind. He found the food so inherently bad-tasting and unenjoyable, he was convinced that the locals couldn't possibly like it themselves.Replies: @AG
Check 11:00. It sounds that Greek Spartan has the worst tasting food (that make people want to die). But I would like to try it someday though.
A post I can actually contribute to!
I am not a big fan of Sichuan but really like high quality Cantonese food. Although I like moderately spicy food the Sichuan pepper alone gives a numbing sensation which I dislike
Chinese food generally seems to be one of the foundations of modern cuisines throughout East Asia and central Asia (and maybe to a smaller extent Southern Europe with pasta?)
Slight digression but there is a new Uighur restaurants popping up in San Francisco I would like to try. China is so large there is really different dishes just in Xi’an from the Hui let alone Xinjiang with the Turkic peoples.
I have the unproven belief that this widespread use of strong condiments in tropical cooking all around the world started as a way to mask the taste of spoiled meat, in the era before refrigeration.
Somewhat an exception from this euro-centric preference are ottoman-descended cuisines, especially greek, lebanese and turkish.
Nevertheless, I like to experiment, so when I have the opportunity I will try a Sichuan restaurant.Replies: @granesperanzablanco
To me this describes Cantonese food as well. Freshness is so important the seafood needs to be alive when you buy it at the market or the restaurant. It is a bit alarming for a Westerner but in Southern China there is much more than seafood tanks at some places to pick alive.
However cities are different story due to traded goods from far away places.Replies: @AG
My hypothesis is that cold climate just does not have enough plants diversity to produce those spicy flavors, as evidenced by northern Europe and China.
Spicy flavor from plants might function as animal repellents against rich animal diversity in tropical region from insects, birds and mammals. So spicy plants are product of biodiversity in tropical region. Obviously pepper spray is pretty good against mammals.
Anyhow, to be less flippant about this, I do wonder if it is possible to compile an eminence rating (of the Charles Murray Human Accomplishment type) of the various world cuisines.
I would bet that European cuisines as a group will clearly dominate. I would cautiously estimate 60-70% of the global total, which is impressive but far less than the share of European dominance in the culture and scientific categories (90%+).
This makes sense intuitively. Speaking of myself, I would really miss Peking duck and Vindaloos and Karahis and bibimbaps and Thai coconut soups but between losing access to all European cuisines and even all Asian (and African and South American) cuisines for the rest of my life I would still choose to retain access to European cuisines. I doubt many readers here will disagree.
At the elite level, I think French cuisine is clearly first, even ahead of much more populous (and variagated!) Asian giants like China and India. But figuring out who’s second is much harder. I would guess Italian but it might just as easily be Chinese or Japanese.
Anyhow there’s some good ideas on how to measure this from Unz.com commentator Lazy Glossophiliac here and some others:
The East Asian standards to me seem to often be mixes of: Fried / roast / grilled protein, crunchy vegetables, soy sauce, vinegars and sugar / sweet (even in cooler parts of asia), which all pretty much works really well.
Fresh, fermented, meaty, sweet, salty and sour all come together in a pleasing way.
It’s also a tradition where a lot seems made for hawkers stalls and high volume restaurants and quick cooking in countries where people couldn’t really IRC afford home ovens with high fuel / time demands. So that scales cheaply and you can get what is good at a reasonable price.
Btw, IMO at the moment, Vietnamese seems the best cuisine in the wider region, at base (at least relative to the size of its region).
Taking the question more seriously than it needs to be taken – platonically better? Seems like the platonic ideal of any foodstuff would be perfectly tasty.
If its more about the platonic essence of a cuisine, that seems hard to define. I think the food traditions are too much in flux to have anything platonic about any of them (the food of any nation or continent is pretty different to even 70-80 years ago?). You’d first have to sort of define what the platonic East Asian cuisine encompasses vs American cuisine etc, before you could have a stab at it.
On that note, I remembered this paper from 2011 – “Flavor network and the principles of food pairing” – http://www.uvm.edu/~pdodds/files/papers/others/2011/ahn2011a.pdf. This shows that “Figure 3D indicates that North American and Western European cuisines exhibit a statistically significant tendency towards recipes whose ingredients share flavor compounds. By contrast, East Asian and Southern European cuisines avoid recipes whose ingredients share flavor compounds.
….Yet, we observe a few frequently used outliers, which tend to be in the positive χi region for North American cuisine, and lie predominantly in the negative region for East Asian cuisine. This suggests that the food pairing effect is due to a few outliers that are frequently used in a particular cuisine, e.g. milk, butter, cocoa, vanilla, cream, and egg in the North America, and beef, ginger, pork, cayenne, chicken, and onion in East Asia.”
(although really in part it tells you mostly that Americans have a lot of dessert recipes, where milk, butter, eggs and cream are used together and East Asians really don’t).
Also, I remember seeing it written somewhere -- as if it were a well known truism -- that the world has only two truly great cuisines: French and Chinese. Does this idea have any currency, or was it just the opinion of whoever I happened to be reading?
As for Sichuan, I don't think any Chinese cuisine has dairy dishes as part of its native repertoire. That means no ice cream. What no ice cream?
No ice cream, no Walter.
BTW, the best ice cream in the world comes from Cincinnati, Ohio. http://www.graeters.com/. You must have one of the flavors with chocolate chips.
(to be fair, there isn't an "indian" or "chinese" cuisine either, though there are broad family similarities)Replies: @Dave
Jefferson appears to be a 3rd or 4th generation Italian American, thus making no real distinction between northern and southern cuisine.
The general rule of thumb for those that are interested is a heavier emphasis on meat and dairy in the north and oil and seafood in the south.
Americans who have only had American style pizza, and that would be most Americans, need to try genuine Neapolitan pizza, eaten with knife and fork. Sublime.
Unfortunately, Neapolitan style is probably only available in NYC or California.
Consult the Associazione Vera Pizza Napoletana for more details, and yes, there are regulations for creating the perfect pie.
I was in Italy and the pizzas were just not very interesting. Any suburb in America probably has at least one pizza place which makes better pizza than most places in Italy. I was in Dubrovnik on the sam trip. Their Italian pizza was better than any I had in Italy. Even Communist Slavic pizza is better than Italian pizza.
Mussolini, who liked to eat salads of roughly cut raw garlic drenched in olive oil and lemon juice, thought French food was “worthless”.
the blandness of much of european food, at least high cuisine, is a function of fashion in the 17th century. th very spicy (black pepper) fare of the medieval period was considered unrefined, with a new focus on sauces in france. i'm skeptical of a very strong biological correlation, though there's something there (dairy is an extreme case you'd think, but MANY asian americans love cheese).Replies: @AG, @Bill M
Do you think sushi’s popularity might have something to do with its blandness? It seems to me that part of sushi’s appeal is that it’s highly exotic in type (raw fish) and origin (Japan), but tastes pretty bland. It’s a way to indulge in exotic food without being subjected to very strong or unusual flavors.
Check out Jiro Dreams of Sushi if you want to see an interesting documentary of sushi and Japanese culture
It does seem that starch/meat combinations are popular almost everywhere.
Fresh, fermented, meaty, sweet, salty and sour all come together in a pleasing way.
It's also a tradition where a lot seems made for hawkers stalls and high volume restaurants and quick cooking in countries where people couldn't really IRC afford home ovens with high fuel / time demands. So that scales cheaply and you can get what is good at a reasonable price.
Btw, IMO at the moment, Vietnamese seems the best cuisine in the wider region, at base (at least relative to the size of its region).
Taking the question more seriously than it needs to be taken - platonically better? Seems like the platonic ideal of any foodstuff would be perfectly tasty.
If its more about the platonic essence of a cuisine, that seems hard to define. I think the food traditions are too much in flux to have anything platonic about any of them (the food of any nation or continent is pretty different to even 70-80 years ago?). You'd first have to sort of define what the platonic East Asian cuisine encompasses vs American cuisine etc, before you could have a stab at it.
On that note, I remembered this paper from 2011 - "Flavor network and the principles of food pairing" - http://www.uvm.edu/~pdodds/files/papers/others/2011/ahn2011a.pdf. This shows that "Figure 3D indicates that North American and Western European cuisines exhibit a statistically significant tendency towards recipes whose ingredients share flavor compounds. By contrast, East Asian and Southern European cuisines avoid recipes whose ingredients share flavor compounds.
....Yet, we observe a few frequently used outliers, which tend to be in the positive χi region for North American cuisine, and lie predominantly in the negative region for East Asian cuisine. This suggests that the food pairing effect is due to a few outliers that are frequently used in a particular cuisine, e.g. milk, butter, cocoa, vanilla, cream, and egg in the North America, and beef, ginger, pork, cayenne, chicken, and onion in East Asia."
(although really in part it tells you mostly that Americans have a lot of dessert recipes, where milk, butter, eggs and cream are used together and East Asians really don't).Replies: @jb, @Walter Sobchak
When I was a grad student, way too many years ago, I had some Vietnamese roommates for a while. At one point they got together with a bunch of friends/relatives (I don’t really remember) and prepared some sort of big feast (for reasons that I don’t remember either). The food was absolutely fantastic — I remember that part! I’ve eaten at Vietnamese restaurants since then, but the food at those places generally comes across as standard East Asian cuisine — very nice, but not exceptional. But maybe I haven’t found the right restaurants — any suggestions for NYC?
Also, I remember seeing it written somewhere — as if it were a well known truism — that the world has only two truly great cuisines: French and Chinese. Does this idea have any currency, or was it just the opinion of whoever I happened to be reading?
I believe Japanese sushi at the extreme is more a reflection of the Japanese cultural qualities of connoisseurship and obsessiveness. International sushi is really not the same and actually can be more spicy and often cream based sauces and fancy rolls. Japanese sushi is most often about the source, the freshness, the scarcity and the most subtle but perfected details.
Check out Jiro Dreams of Sushi if you want to see an interesting documentary of sushi and Japanese culture
i’m very far from expert in this as all i really like is meat and milk but…
practise makes perfect?
i wonder which cuisine has had the longest time to evolve since gaining all the key ingredients?
from what little i know about cooking Sichuan sounds like it might be a contender for one of the oldest?
Oldest would be... well, paleo? LOL.Replies: @Twinkie
I hadn't noticed a generational effect. Do you have any insight or data on this? My impression has been that younger generations are slower to start families, which presumably means we have more money to devote to consumption (and savings) in general. But I hadn't noticed any difference in how we consume.
As for food: the biggest revelation to me in recent years is Indian food. Specifically the (North?) Indian food that my former, very religious neighbors used to share with us. They had more dietary restrictions than I had ever heard of (no meat, sure, but also no tomatoes, onions, or garlic - basically what I considered the staple flavor vegetables for cooking). Yet food was incredibly flavorful and aromatic.
Re: are some cuisines just better?
If anything is a matter of taste, it's taste. But here's a thought experiment: if every person on earth were raised with an exposure to every cuisine, what would happen? Would some cuisines disappear, or at least become very unpopular, upon the slow realization that, e.g., Gefilte fish just isn't that good? For those that win out, what features explain their success?Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Walter Sobchak, @Ryukendo
“,Gefilte fish just isn’t that good?”
It really is vile. I began substituting smoked salmon for GF, at our passover seders, and everybody loved it.
Fresh, fermented, meaty, sweet, salty and sour all come together in a pleasing way.
It's also a tradition where a lot seems made for hawkers stalls and high volume restaurants and quick cooking in countries where people couldn't really IRC afford home ovens with high fuel / time demands. So that scales cheaply and you can get what is good at a reasonable price.
Btw, IMO at the moment, Vietnamese seems the best cuisine in the wider region, at base (at least relative to the size of its region).
Taking the question more seriously than it needs to be taken - platonically better? Seems like the platonic ideal of any foodstuff would be perfectly tasty.
If its more about the platonic essence of a cuisine, that seems hard to define. I think the food traditions are too much in flux to have anything platonic about any of them (the food of any nation or continent is pretty different to even 70-80 years ago?). You'd first have to sort of define what the platonic East Asian cuisine encompasses vs American cuisine etc, before you could have a stab at it.
On that note, I remembered this paper from 2011 - "Flavor network and the principles of food pairing" - http://www.uvm.edu/~pdodds/files/papers/others/2011/ahn2011a.pdf. This shows that "Figure 3D indicates that North American and Western European cuisines exhibit a statistically significant tendency towards recipes whose ingredients share flavor compounds. By contrast, East Asian and Southern European cuisines avoid recipes whose ingredients share flavor compounds.
....Yet, we observe a few frequently used outliers, which tend to be in the positive χi region for North American cuisine, and lie predominantly in the negative region for East Asian cuisine. This suggests that the food pairing effect is due to a few outliers that are frequently used in a particular cuisine, e.g. milk, butter, cocoa, vanilla, cream, and egg in the North America, and beef, ginger, pork, cayenne, chicken, and onion in East Asia."
(although really in part it tells you mostly that Americans have a lot of dessert recipes, where milk, butter, eggs and cream are used together and East Asians really don't).Replies: @jb, @Walter Sobchak
I love all kinds of food, and what I want varies from time to time. I glad that I live in a time and place, where there are lots of choices available at all times.
As for Sichuan, I don’t think any Chinese cuisine has dairy dishes as part of its native repertoire. That means no ice cream. What no ice cream?
No ice cream, no Walter.
BTW, the best ice cream in the world comes from Cincinnati, Ohio. http://www.graeters.com/. You must have one of the flavors with chocolate chips.
But in the "not big slabs of meat" categoru, Sichuan, Korean and Mexican are nice.Replies: @cthulhu
Hey, in the big slabs of meat category, good carnitas comes in large chunks (not the shredded stuff they sell at Chipotle) and flavor-wise is right up there with many cuts of beef. All else being equal, I’ll take a top-notch steak or prime rib over top-notch carnitas, but at least in coastal SoCal, it’s easy to find really good carnitas for a lot less than really good steak.
French-Italian (European)
Japanese-Vietnamese (Asian)
Thanks for all your work this year. Have a great holiday season
Sichuan is really big on chilli papers, and those presumably only came over in the 16th-17th centuries. So presumably the “fiendishly hot” part of Sichuan cuisine at any rate is only a few centuries old.
Oldest would be… well, paleo? LOL.
I hadn't noticed a generational effect. Do you have any insight or data on this? My impression has been that younger generations are slower to start families, which presumably means we have more money to devote to consumption (and savings) in general. But I hadn't noticed any difference in how we consume.
As for food: the biggest revelation to me in recent years is Indian food. Specifically the (North?) Indian food that my former, very religious neighbors used to share with us. They had more dietary restrictions than I had ever heard of (no meat, sure, but also no tomatoes, onions, or garlic - basically what I considered the staple flavor vegetables for cooking). Yet food was incredibly flavorful and aromatic.
Re: are some cuisines just better?
If anything is a matter of taste, it's taste. But here's a thought experiment: if every person on earth were raised with an exposure to every cuisine, what would happen? Would some cuisines disappear, or at least become very unpopular, upon the slow realization that, e.g., Gefilte fish just isn't that good? For those that win out, what features explain their success?Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Walter Sobchak, @Ryukendo
Some experience here that may be of interest. I live in an extremely international house in a college on the West Coast, with ~60% American students, half white, and we have rotating cook duty, groups of students come together to prepare dinner and clean up for the house every night.
At the beginning, every cuisine was well represented, but as the year went by and reputations began to build with certain types of food greeted with obvious welcome, three cuisines began to be repeated, and eventually took over almost the entire repetoire: Chinese, S Indian, and Italian food.
Interestingly, ingredients from the three cuisines started to ‘bleed’ into each other, as well as into the rest; e.g. the ‘curry’ method of making liquidy stuff was taken over and toned down by some Italian friends who made truly excellent seafood soups, coconut milk and Indian spices invaded spanish paellas, and star anise from Chinese stir-fry began appearing everywhere.
So Anatoly, even though the European dominance of desserts remained unchallenged, there are some datapoints that suggest otherwise haha.
Interesting thing regarding the starches too, the most popular were rice, quinoa, pasta and unleavened dough like chapati, and bread almost disappeared by the end of the year, which makes me wonder if people truly prefer it if other starches are readily available.
tldr; Indian cuisine > Sichuan.Replies: @SeekTruthFromFacts
I couldn’t agree more! Sichuan cooking relies on just two key elements, chilli peppers and numbing peppers, delivered in large quantities. It’s the culinary equivalent of a police siren: two notes played very loudly, drowning out everything else. They get your attention, but they’re missing the complexity that is present in the most beautiful music. That may have been quite deliberate, since some argue that the amped-up spices became popular as disguises for the rotting meat that was once the only option for many people in the hot and poor province. I much prefer the complex flavours that you get from the variety of herbs, spices and core ingredients (veg/meat) used in South Asian cooking. To adapt Phil Spector’s phrase, you get a “wall of flavour”.
Razib:
Go North and Northwest. The regional cooking of Xian and up into Xinjiang province is remarkable … those with better palates than mine detect a Silk Road-based fusion of SW/Central and East Asian spices and techniques. The predominance of lamb dishes is a highlight, for sure.
The next time you are in the NYC area go to any Xi’An Foods restaurant – a local micro-chain (clan owned and run, by appearances). The Midtown (45th) branch is recognizable by the continuous line out the door from open to close.
I don’t think anything matches Norwegian and Swedish cuisine. Maybe Finnish. It’s subtlety and freshness have no competition. It’s appeal lies in the the flavor of the ingredient, rather than the condiments slathered on top.
The contemporary desire for strong and overwhelming flavors is pretty vulgar. All that greasiness and spiciness to disguise what you are eating. I guess it appeals to the same sort of people who put spinning rims on crappy cars.
Oldest would be... well, paleo? LOL.Replies: @Twinkie
Sichuan “pepper” is actually not chili pepper (originally from the Americas and spread by the Iberians around the world as you alluded), but a variety of peppercorn native to Asia.
My absolute favorite is French, on any level. In France, all food just tastes better, even omelette. Italy is also good, but not as much. I have little experience with Spanish (including Catalan and Basque) food, but it seemed very good to me, especially the one Basque restaurant where I ate.
My wife is Vietnamese, and I find Vietnamese cuisine to be superior to all Asian ones, but maybe only because I had the most exposure to it, but I think that’s not the most important reason. However, it mostly lacks a haute cuisine, even though it would be highly suited to it. It compares favorably to most European cuisines.
Most Chinese restaurants didn’t impress me at all, even if some dishes did. But I can’t claim to have been in the best or most authentic Chinese restaurants.
I’m Hungarian, and I think Hungarian food tasted very very bad in the 1990s and 2000s (not that I noticed it much at the time until I started experiencing better foods, in part because I moved abroad). This was a result of the communist period, which destroyed good (actually, all) restaurants, and replaced them with cheap canteens with badly tasting food or, for the party elite, with fancy canteens producing equally badly tasting but fancy looking foods with complicated names. Interestingly it also devastated the quality of foods produced at homes, since people moving to cities lost access to good quality ingredients (and because of the general scarcity of goods, including most foodstuffs, often any ingredients), while collectivization even restricted rural populations access to quality ingredients. Even wine production was devastated by communist ideas, for example they added sugar to grapes to increase volume at the cost of reducing quality. Apparently they always preferred quantity over quality. Recently, however, quality of foods have started to improve considerably both at homes and restaurants.
In my opinion, the answer is no. And I say that despite the fact that Sichuanese is my favorite type of Chinese cuisine. Of course, my favorite Sichuanese food is lamb cooked with cumin, which is an “immigrant” dish originally from Xinjiang.
For me, there is no one single type of cuisine that is best. I find that there are great, favorite dishes from almost every region in the world that are superb, but other dishes from the same can be disappointing. Sichuanese cuisine is very tasty when had occasionally, but for my palate it is too oily to be consumed daily. If I had to, just had to, pick one type of cuisine to be eaten every day, I would probably pick Vietnamese for its good variety of the hearty and thick, and the fresh and light.
Here are some favorites from around the world:
Chinese/Sichuanese: the aforementioned lamb with cumin; dan dan noodles.
Japanese: I am a big sushi and sashimi fiend (I am partial to raw scallops), but the rare occasions when I can partake in the Kyoto-style Kaiseki experience are almost sublime. I also like the Japanese Kare-raisu (curry rice).
Korean: spicy grilled pork belly, but the real treat for me is Soondae, the Korean pig blood sausage. If you are man enough, you can eat it.
Vietnamese: everything, even Banh Mi. My favorite Vietnamese restaurant is actually in Seattle, of all places. It’s very fusion-y, but I am not going to apologize for it. If it tastes good, it tastes good.
Malaysian/Singaporean: black pepper crab. (But my very favorite restaurant in Singapore is a Hakka hot pot place though Fatman Satay comes pretty close.)
Indonesian: the whole Rijsttaffel experience is usually very good, but I also like the humble rendang.
Thai: Singha beer. I think it’s the best beer in Asia.
Indian: I am a big fan of Keralan cuisine. I like pretty much any kind of curry with coconut milk and fish.
Persian: any kind of meat. Persians have a great knack for being able to make meat both fully cooked and tender at the same time (without obliterating the texture). And Persian rice is perhaps the best in the whole world (though Thai jasmine rice is pretty good in a different way).
Turkish: cacik. I pretty much drink gallons of it, especially with lamb pilau.
French: bread, period. The French are the best bakers in the world. And of course wine – there is usually a glass of Bordeaux at my dinner table though Australian Shiraz is also quite good, and excellent value at every price level. I will be drinking a 2008 Chateau de Seguin Bordeaux superieur with my meal this evening.
German: I cheat here. My favorite German food is actually French – Alsatian. Even my favorite German wine is Alsatian – GewĂĽrztraminer.
Italian: I tend to prefer very peasant-y Sicilian and Neapolitan food rather than the now ubiquitous Tuscan. My very favorite Italian dish is the very simple and very humble Spaghetti aglio e olio. When done right, it has an almost Japanese-like feel to it.
Spanish/Portuguese: cured meats and sausages. In the Twinkie household, we eat A LOT of Azorean kale soup with both chorizo and linguica in the winter. I picked up a recipe from an Azorean restaurant I used to frequent during my student days in New England.
Moroccan: simple enough – couscous with lamb.
South Africa: I am addicted to Biltong. Any kind of Biltong. But game-meat Biltong is always a treat.
This is obviously not exhaustive, but as I am not hungry, I must go eat something.
Sichuan is the “breadbasket” (perhaps rice bowl would be a better term?) of China and the most populous province. Stands to reason that the province would have some of the best cuisine if only because of the human and material resources. But it’s also climatically and culturally very diverse, with tundra (in the mountains) to subtropical weather, Tibetans, northern Chinese, southern Chinese, and an ancient history that predates Han civilization in the region.
It also exports an enormous number of low-wage workers to northern cities, and many of these enterprising people set up restaurants and export their cuisine throughout Asia and by extension the world.
I used to eat Sichuanese food all the time in Beijing. As far as I could tell, Sichuanese restaurants are more common than traditional northern Chinese places. Personally, I like Sichuanese cuisine, but it does get old after a while. The hua jiao (tingly pepper) can taste kind of metallic if overdone, which is often the case. The crispy anise duck is good, but Peking duck is better IMO. The savory tastes that characterize good northern cuisine are usually absent or overwhelmed by spices, and the noodles are second rate. But then again I’ve never been to Sichuan, so I doubt I’ve had the best the province has to offer.
Vegetative biodiversity plays a role in an interesting cuisine.
That part of southwest China has a remarkable variety of plant life. I think it has something to do with subtropical latitude and a big range in altitude. Expeditions to Sichuan were crucial to forming the collection of Kew Gardens.
It is true that the huajiao (Sichuan pepper”) is not the lajiao (chili pepper), but Sichuanese cuisine does make ample use of chilis and would, indeed, be unrecognizable without them. Sichuan pepper is what creates the numbing sensations as opposed to the burning sensations associated with Sichuan food anyway. I for one would be interested in a book about what Chinese cuisines were like before the Colombian exchange.
I am also curious what Korean food was like before the introduction of chili pepper supposedly around the time of the Hideyoshi invasions. While I was living in Korea, I did have "water Kimchi" (a northern variant made without chili pepper), and it was pretty much the same as normal Kimchi minus the chili pepper.
For that matter, one author on modern Indian cuisine I read seemed quite adamant that pre-Portuguese Indian food was very different.
I think it would make a fascinating history book to compare and contrast various regional foods prior to the 16th Century (the beginning of "the Rise of the West") and the modern equivalents.Replies: @K.
As would I.
I am not sure about “unrecognizable.” Maybe not as “burning” as you point out, but probably still quite “spicy” compared to others. And would other native ingredients have changed that much?
I am also curious what Korean food was like before the introduction of chili pepper supposedly around the time of the Hideyoshi invasions. While I was living in Korea, I did have “water Kimchi” (a northern variant made without chili pepper), and it was pretty much the same as normal Kimchi minus the chili pepper.
For that matter, one author on modern Indian cuisine I read seemed quite adamant that pre-Portuguese Indian food was very different.
I think it would make a fascinating history book to compare and contrast various regional foods prior to the 16th Century (the beginning of “the Rise of the West”) and the modern equivalents.
The general rule of thumb for those that are interested is a heavier emphasis on meat and dairy in the north and oil and seafood in the south.
Americans who have only had American style pizza, and that would be most Americans, need to try genuine Neapolitan pizza, eaten with knife and fork. Sublime.
Unfortunately, Neapolitan style is probably only available in NYC or California.
Consult the Associazione Vera Pizza Napoletana for more details, and yes, there are regulations for creating the perfect pie.Replies: @Cereal Crepist, @Anthony
I have a friend from northern Italy and from talking to him, the cuisines are actually very different. For example, he complains that American food has too much garlic.
Korean BBQ is in every sense the world’s most perfect cuisine. Nutritionally, aesthetically and in some sort of platonic reactionary caveman “guys eating meat and veggies sitting around the fire on a beautiful wooden table” sense.
I know you agree with me anyway; you just needed to be reminded.
And the usual caveats about carcinogenic burnt meat ends apply though I read a report of a study that says eating garlic at the same time supposedly reduces the risk somewhat.
I am also curious what Korean food was like before the introduction of chili pepper supposedly around the time of the Hideyoshi invasions. While I was living in Korea, I did have "water Kimchi" (a northern variant made without chili pepper), and it was pretty much the same as normal Kimchi minus the chili pepper.
For that matter, one author on modern Indian cuisine I read seemed quite adamant that pre-Portuguese Indian food was very different.
I think it would make a fascinating history book to compare and contrast various regional foods prior to the 16th Century (the beginning of "the Rise of the West") and the modern equivalents.Replies: @K.
I would not recognize 水煮鱼 (poached fish in chili oil) or even better 水煮肉片 (sliced pork in chili oil) without the chili oil and the pound and a half of dried chilis floating in it. Chili free mapo tofu is equally unthinkable. As for other ingredients, peanut less Kung pao chicken is not Kung pao chicken. P.nigrum, good old black pepper comes from India not Sichuan, so as inspiring as it is Sichuan’s botanical bio-diversity still cannot provide all you need for a proper Tea -Smoked duck (not that the Chinese needed the Portuguese to bring them black pepper, or sugar).
Hunan is pretty great too!
You are assuming that these Sichuanese dishes would be exactly the same minus the chili pepper under this alternate history scenario.
I know you agree with me anyway; you just needed to be reminded.Replies: @Twinkie
It’s terrible for your clothes, however. Or, as my wife put it over a couple of decades ago, “Korean BBQ doesn’t make good date food.”
And the usual caveats about carcinogenic burnt meat ends apply though I read a report of a study that says eating garlic at the same time supposedly reduces the risk somewhat.
To the contrary, I am assuming precisely the opposite.
Too hot! And they add those numbing little peppers in Sichuan cuisine. You can have it. Though Gong Bao Jiding without too many hot peppers is good, though.
The general rule of thumb for those that are interested is a heavier emphasis on meat and dairy in the north and oil and seafood in the south.
Americans who have only had American style pizza, and that would be most Americans, need to try genuine Neapolitan pizza, eaten with knife and fork. Sublime.
Unfortunately, Neapolitan style is probably only available in NYC or California.
Consult the Associazione Vera Pizza Napoletana for more details, and yes, there are regulations for creating the perfect pie.Replies: @Cereal Crepist, @Anthony
American pizza >> Italian pizza. They’re not the same dish. The American one is just better. Though bad American pizza is much worse than bad Italian pizza.
I was in Italy and the pizzas were just not very interesting. Any suburb in America probably has at least one pizza place which makes better pizza than most places in Italy. I was in Dubrovnik on the sam trip. Their Italian pizza was better than any I had in Italy. Even Communist Slavic pizza is better than Italian pizza.