The Atlantic has a story in the May issue on homosexuality in Saudi Arabia. Like many things in the Arab world there is the de jure and de facto. Since this is only available in full in print I’ll have to wait to read the whole thing, but I wonder how much they emphasize the difference between facultative homosexuality and obligate homosexuality? After all, many men in prison have sex with other men, but they aren’t homosexual by choice, they are sexual with a strong preference for females and so they select the most feminine males and turn them into “bitches” to generate an illusion. For non-upper class young males (those with money can travel abroad) it seems that Saudi Arabia might exhibit some of the characteristics of a prison, and so sexual urges are “released” upon other males (or, unfortunately the domestic help). I also wonder as to the role of single-sex socialization in priming these tendencies. I am often struck by the fact that in societies where males generally form close friendships only with other males there is quite a bit more physical and emotional affection between the same gender than is acceptable (and not deemed “gay”) in the United States, where sexes socialize freely and straight males are generally averse to non-violent physical contact with each other. In fact, it seems to me that when sex relations in the United States were more distinct insofar as the genders inhabited disjoint social domains there was less fear of being perceived as homosexual if you were physically close with another man. One can find analogs of this situation in single-sex education as well. In any case, my only point is that articles like this might be a bit less shocking if Americans weren’t such a peculiar bunch, and the patently homophobic citizens of 1900 might be able to intuitively understand the social dynamics here more than moderns.
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You are mostly correct. Certainly, before the sexual revolution in the 1960s, males in the west could develop strong non-sexual relationships with another males without the fear of being assumed to be gay. The military has traditionally been based in large part on such relationships, and therefore lies the unspoken fear that allowing women into the ranks will hurt morale.
I spent a month in Morocco 30 years ago in the company of some college buds (girls and boys both). One of us was a somewhat shy, not-very-experienced gay guy. Hoo-eee did he enjoy his visit. He had all kinds of fun. He’d be walking from the center of town back to where we were staying and score just about every day. I think part of what he enjoyed was that the boys weren’t gay in the American sense. They were horny and they weren’t able to get at girls. So they’d take any chance they could get to blow a load off, including with American gays. I wonder if my friend paid them, come to think of it — don’t know. Anyway, it was a much more pleasant experience for him than it was for the girls on our trip. They loved the exotica, the travel, etc. But the hostility of many Moroccans to “free” women was quite incredible. Our gals weren’t flaunting anything by Western standards — we were being fairly respectful. But our gals weren’t covering entirely up either, and they had opinions and free body language.
It actually made me wonder about the question of rape. In the States, we think of rape as involving a specific moment — penetration. In Morocco, though, I had the impression that part of what enraged the locals about our girls was that it was as though sex was already underway and … yet it wasn’t. Guys will get furious, after all, if taunted, drawn on, made promises to, and then shut down. And I think that’s how the Moroccan guys were experiencing being around our girls. It was as though “sex” had already begun and promises had already been made — yet they were being denied the chance to finish the act. It wasn’t just that we were seen as immoral and over-free. There was something more, at least in the anger of the men. I think it was that bare arms, uninhibited voices, and free body language made them think sex was already underway. Crossed with the fact that we were clearly richer than the locals … Well, class anger and jealousy … Sexual anger and jealousy … Yikes.
But our gay buddy did all right for himself. He’s probably never again had it so good (especially given that, like many gay guys, what he always really craved were straight boys)…
Michael – Pim Fortuyn liked to prove his non-Islamophobic creds by explaining/boasting about the number of Muslim guys he slept with.
Well yeah, Razib, what you said, but let’s go further. The whole Quran strikes me as a divinely inspired military tract. And, as such, it treats the entire existence of women as a major problem for its soldiers to contend with. Ultimately the Quran comes to the conclusion that this problem earns its keep by bearing male sons, but they have no instrinsic worth of their own, and are, in fact, inferior in all measureable (that is, martial) ways. In addition to everything you cited, I find it amazing that anyone in Saudi Arabia ends up straight, as we understand it.
The whole Quran strikes me as a divinely inspired military tract.
which translation did you read? the ones i’ve read a bit unorganized to be much of a tract…. in any case, most religions/philosophies before the modern era seemed to treat women as “problems” from what i can tell. the athenians treated their “respectable” women pretty much like the saudis treated their women folk, the heterai were the filipinas of the age ;0-) my own general hypothesis that the “woman issue” arose after the rise of mass societies due to population expansion because of agriculture, and the preeminence of “men in groups” who had to manage within group tensions generated by the ladies. contemporaneously we term it “bros before hos.”
It was the gays coming out of the closet, not the sexual revolution between men and women, that damaged close friendships between men in the US.
I’m old enough to remember when it was expected that men traveling would share a room. When gays came out of the closet it became thinkable that you would be propositioned, and hence sharing a room became undesirable.
It’s very irritating that you have to think a bit carefully about going out to dinner with one other man while you are traveling.
As a matter of fact, when I went to college I didn’t even know that gays existed. Took me about a year to figure out what people were talking about.
When I was in high school it was no problem for men to shower naked in the locker room. Now, everyone is very furtive. Why not when you fear that some guy is looking you over and you are not interested. Very similar to why men and women have different locker rooms. Women don’t want to deal with men lusting after them when they are just trying to clean up.
How does this play out in other species, I wonder? Is there any parallel at all?
On a somewhat related note, I was just reading about female infanticide and I was wondering how the gender imbalances favoring men will play out in the affected cultures. In the piece I was reading, it said sonograms and abortion became widely available in many countries in the mid-1970’s. Female babies became rarer and now some places have a gender imbalance of 750 females born for every 1,000 males.
If this gender imbalance became more common in the mid-1970s, that means that these boys are men now and looking for sex (to put it bluntly). How has the gender imbalance affected views of homosexual experiences in places like India, China and countries in the Middle-East? How do the straight males find women? I would think there would be a huge cultural impact when millions of men have no chance of getting a mate in the traditional sense. I always suspected that the relatively liberal times of the 1960s and 1970s in the ‘West’ was partially due to a large population of young people. The gender imbalances in places like China and India are on an even bigger scale. What cultural changes are happening because of this?
Anyone have any idea?
It was the gays coming out of the closet, not the sexual revolution between men and women, that damaged close friendships between men in the US.
i’m mildly skeptical of this as the only factor. both adam bellow in nepotism and stephanie coontz in history of marriage seem to imply that the relationship between males began to decline in the 19th century with the rise of the nuclear family as the social ideal par excellence and the emphasis placed on the civilizing influence of the female (necessitating that the husband spend time with his wife). this peaked in the 1950s when the nuclear family was absolutely normative. humans have a finite number of hours in a day, and it makes sense to me at least that if you are obligated to spend your evenings with your family because of the importance of nuclear families that’s going to cut into the evenings spent out “with the boys” (who in the context of men in leadership positions were underlings whose morale you were expected to boost through comradeship which transcended class barriers).
When gays came out of the closet it became thinkable that you would be propositioned, and hence sharing a room became undesirable.
this implies that the problem is the initiation of friendship, not the perpetuation or development. once you know another man isn’t gay you obviously don’t have this issue, so the key would be know who is, or isn’t, gay. from this model it seems that the “worst” situation in regards to male trust and friendship is one where homosexuality isn’t “forbidden,” but crypto-homosexuality is still common enough because of social sanction. in contrast, when gay men are commonly flamboyant and fabulous it’s pretty obvious who is who. a friend of mine in college joked that he’d just make sure to go out to a dance club and watch his male friends shake it to ascertain their sexual orientation.
Anyone have any idea?
well, you should look up some gender imbalance numbers first (i’ve posted them on this weblog before, but i’m not inclined to look it up now). the muslim world isn’t as bad as china or india because brideprice is more common than dowry. also, incest (cousin marriage) reduces the “cost” of females since they stay within the family.
I would think there would be a huge cultural impact when millions of men have no chance of getting a mate in the traditional sense.
a lot of men visit prostitutes too. that mitigates the stress i’m assuming, a bit.
The gender imbalances in places like China and India are on an even bigger scale. What cultural changes are happening because of this?
you should read Bare Branches: The Security Implications of Asia’s Surplus Male Population. your question can be answered and then you can tell us what you find.
btw robert, you sound a bit like women terrified of “sexual harrassment.” 😉 i think culture adjusts, my own generation is probably less concerned about being propositioned in part because saying no is an option.
In fact, it seems to me that when sex relations in the United States were more distinct insofar as the genders inhabited disjoint social domains there was less fear of being perceived as homophobic if you were physically close with another man.
Shouldn’t this be homosexual?
tx.
Regarding the gender imbalance of male vs. female births – isn’t that due in some way to the hepatitis virus?
isn’t that due in some way to the hepatitis virus?
that didn’t pan out i think, at least to explain all of it. i believe that the “difference” crops up in later births…which doesn’t make sense. though i should read her paper…but this is one case where economists’ imperialism really pissed a lot of people off.
Having read pg 1 of the Atlantic article, the scene described is not different from thousands of similar places all over the world. Why should Saudi Arabia be different?
but this is one case where economists’ imperialism really pissed a lot of people off.
Yeah, it was cited as one of the examples of freakonomics run amok in this recent New Republic piece
“a lot of men visit prostitutes too. that mitigates the stress i’m assuming, a bit.”
Yeah but they don’t get to pass on their name & genetic heritage. It’s a real problem.
Re: tract, OK, that might not have been a good choice of words in that tract implies a quick, coherent precis, which the Quran isn’t. But even something disorganized can have an animating ethos, and the Quran’s attitudes towards women are far more denigrating than the OT or the NT. There are no women in the Quran other than Muhammad’s gaggle of wives. And the most interesting one made her money during the accursed jahaliyya.
The religions/philosophies before the modern era are irrelevant to my point. But since you brought it up, I do think that one of its good points, Pauline misogyny aside, was a huge boost in women’s status.
Look, so what? My point is simply this: if you are at all inclined towards homosexuality, Islam may on the surface forbid it, but underneath all that finger-pointing, it’s a man-on-man wet dream. Read Sir Richard Burton.
“its good points”
its = xtianity
There are no women in the Quran other than Muhammad’s gaggle of wives. And the most interesting one made her money during the accursed jahaliyya.
that seems false since the koran “borrows” wholesale from the bible. e.g., there are garbled versions of stories common to judaism and xtianity in the koran.
its = xtianity
why do you think it boosted women’s status? (i know there is a scholarly debate about this, i’m curious as to what your opinion is)
if you are at all inclined towards homosexuality, Islam may on the surface forbid it, but underneath all that finger-pointing, it’s a man-on-man wet dream.
the bizarre idea that some evangelicals have that homosexual men are a ‘temptation’ suggests to me that this is a cross-cultural phenomenon which is cranked up or down by cultural context.
i wonder to what degree sexual preference in humans is a learned and developed faculty, practiced and acquired, that “plays out,” in a context of physiological sexual drive, where an individual takes a particular role (performance) in the culture, and to a degree, function in society.?
related or not to the foregoing, i would look into the differing measures of the erotic value of property, since success in sexual performance is almost by default measured by ‘how many’ and ‘how much’ is acquired in performing one’s assigned ritual behaviors, as opposed to, say, sexual appetite (even appetite may be to a degree a learned value). an individual’s sexual preference may be determined by familial and societal needs or desires, distinct from biological potency.
forgot another point related to property: in the US, slang terms used in competitive games, often hint at some form or other feature of ownership or acquisition. (terms of ownership etc apply in many other social contexts and actitivities of course). for example: myself a gay man who gets excited while watching body contact sports such as wrestling and boxing, i notice the almost electric (erotic) charge in the room when a victor or audience member declares that the loser is or has been ‘owned.’ the winner then gets to display him or herself, and either ignores the loser, gloats over him/her, or shows tenderness and affection, touching, kissing, etc. all rituals designed to enhance the value of the event or activity.
don’t know if this fits in with the article, but i could almost see the gay man thrilled at having been acquired by straight men. pretty hot property!
My point is simply this: if you are at all inclined towards homosexuality, Islam may on the surface forbid it, but underneath all that finger-pointing, it’s a man-on-man wet dream. Read Sir Richard Burton.
Shouldn’t the Arab world have much higher rates of HIV/AIDS prevelance if this were the case? Male circumcision puts a lid on the epidemic among heterosexuals, but not among egalitarian homosexuals who “flip” roles.
excellent question. in the west you have a small group, sexually isolated, that’s like a petri dish. (remember the coming heterosexual aids crisis? which never happened among middle-class whites.) in saudi, the article seems to imply that the practice is widespread (but no real figures), however, probably not as promiscuous as westerners.
but w/o real numbers, who knows? and perhaps the disease is being spread as we speak…i don’t know.
i am simply saying that the perceived disconnect between this behavior & and societal meta-“script” is not as illogical as it appears.
that’s about it…
No, no, I agree that there is plenty of man-on-man hanky panky going on in Islamic, sex-segregated societies. But what numbers we do have on HIV/AIDS coming from Islamic countries – which, granted, are not complete – are very, very low and I am wondering why that is. You’re certainly right that Muslim men who have sex with men (gay or straight or bi or whatever) are no where near as promiscuous as western gays. Gay men in the West can go to a bar, a bathhouse, even online with the reasonable assumption that they will be able to score if they want to. Men in the Muslim world don’t have that option.
Also, while there might be a lot of male on male action in Islamic countriees, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of it fell short of actual sodomy, which is what mostly spreads HIV/AIDS. Alot of men who are willing to turn to other men for sexual release still aren’t going to want to take things that far, if it goes against their natural orientation.
In other polygamous /religious groups, spin-off Mormons sects? where there is a potential shortage of women for some men, is there data on the male/female birth balance?
Anecdotally there seems to be also increased risk of child sexual abuse, within such groups.
Bachelor males can’t keep going off to start new colonies can they?
There are no women in the Quran other than Muhammad’s gaggle of wives. And the most interesting one made her money during the accursed jahaliyya.
Er — read “The family of Imran”.
(Entirely off topic, I would say Aisha is by far the most interest wife. Khadijah may have been rich, but Aisha was a general!)