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How Fast Is France’s Muslim Population Growing?
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Percentage of newborns given Muslim first names over the past 50 years. Green refers to exclusively Muslim names, blue to names that are both Muslim and non-Muslim (e.g. Sarah or Adam).

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In the absence of official statistics, observers interested in the ethno-religious changes of France society must resort to creative methods. One such method is to use the French statistical agency’s (INSEE) annual database of first names given to newborns.

Using this data, the French identitarian news aggregator Fdesouche has charted the dramatic growth of newborns with Islamic first names from around 2.5% in 1969 to 21.5% in 2019. This figure is remarkably congruent with our other sources.

While Fdesouche has been using this method to give annual estimates since 2016, it came to broader attention in 2019 when the mainstream pollster Jérôme Fourquet used the same technique in his remarkable bestseller The French Archipelago: The Birth of a Divided and Multiple Nation. Fourquet had found that in 2015 some 18.5% of newborns were given Muslim first names.

Fourquet is no right-wing ideologue but a senior manager at the venerable Institute of French Public Opinion (IFOP), the nation’s leading polling and market research agency. Indeed, The French Archipelago goes far beyond ethnic issues, discussing dechristianization (the decline of “Marie”), the semi-Americanization of lower class French (the proliferation of “Kevins” and “Cindys” due to 1990s American soap operas), and wider trends of social fragmentation and heightened individualism.

Fourquet’s analysis resonated strongly with the public at a time when the French political landscape was breaking down – with the collapse of the conservatives and the Socialists in favor of Emmanuel Macron and marine Le Pen – and the rise of the yellow-vest protests contesting urban elites.

The figures for Muslim first names are not perfectly precise because of the problem of “mixed names” and the growing percentage of “rare names,” which are difficult to classify and which Muslims seem to have a predilection for. As such, the real percentage of Muslim newborns may actually be around 25%.

The figures are also broken down by département (county). As one would expect, Muslims are concentrated in Greater-Paris, making up an outright majority of Seine-Saint-Denis (54%).

The figures are broadly congruent with another major source for estimating the growing non-European component of the French population: the percentage of newborns tested for sickle-cell disease, something normally done for populations vulnerable to that congenital illness (typically, Africans, Middle-Easterners, Indians, but also southern Italians).

Percentage of newborns tested for sickle-cell disease in France, a proxy for non-European births
Percentage of newborns tested for sickle-cell disease in France, a proxy for non-European births

Fdesouche had found that 31.5% of newborns were tested for sickle-cell in 2010, rising to 39.4% in 2016. If a fifth of newborns in France are Muslims, it is plausible that around one third of newborns are non-European. After all, a large contingent of France’s non-White immigrants are Christian or otherwise non-Muslim: Blacks and mixed-race from France’s Caribbean and other overseas territories, Christian Africans (who are increasingly replacing the dying breed that are French pastors in our churches), Christian Arabs (especially Lebanese), various Asians, etc.

The agency collecting national sickle-cell statistics was shut down in 2018 and there was talk of universalizing tests regardless of ethnic origin. The French authorities claim these measures have nothing to do with the identitarian Right’s use of these figures – which certainly was causing alarm in official circles.

These data suggest that developments in France are analogous to what we see in the rest of the Western world: very similar to Great Britain (non-Whites made up 24.4% of births in 2014 and Whites are projected to become a minority of the general population by the 2060s) and about 20 years behind the United States of America (Whites make up a minority of under 15s, Whites are projected to become a minority of the general population in the 2040s).

Note: a substantial portion of White births in France are to people of Italian, Portuguese, Polish, or other European origin. As such, if non-Europeans make up a third of births, it may be that the native France proper already only account for about half of births. However, statistics show that European immigrants to France rapidly converge socio-economically with the native French and assimilate. After all, France as a nation is essentially a fusion of European ethnies – Gallo-Roman, Breton, Flemish . . . – united by the French language and culture.

By contrast, recent polls have highlighted the stark divergence in values between young Muslims and Europeans in France: 66% of young Muslims want insulting Islam to be punished by law and 26% do not oppose the assassination of cartoonists mocking Mohamed. Perhaps not coincidentally, around two thirds have French people consistently say “There are too many foreigners in France.”

All this data testifies to the reality of an ongoing “Great Replacement” of the native French population, the native British population, and the White American population since the 1960s. For all that, if we consult on Wikipedia, we are told that the Great Replacement is “a white nationalist far-right conspiracy theory which states that, with the complicity or cooperation of ‘replacist’ elites, the white French population—as well as white European population at large—is being progressively replaced with non-European peoples . . . Scholars have generally dismissed the claims of a ‘great replacement’ as being rooted in a misreading of immigration statistics and unscientific, racist views.”

Meanwhile, the Wikipedia article for the strange term “Whiteshift” claims that “Whiteshift, white racial shift, or sometimes called white decline is the demographic and social phenomenon of white majorities gradually declining to become a minority group, sometimes labelled majority minority, and increasingly of mixed race heritage, due to consensual intermarriage and natural demographic change in the Western world.”

How shameless and dishonest our media, political, and academic elites are on this most inconvenient topic: inconvenient to them and critical to the future of our nations.

 
• Category: Culture/Society, Foreign Policy • Tags: France, Immigration, Muslims 
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  1. There was always an excuse to bring these groups of culturally-foreign people into the country in the first place. For European nations it was it’s only right that the let in the people from their former colonies due to guilt. For America, it’s that we’ve been bombing them over there so we won’t be fighting ’em over here, except now we need to invite them over here, cause we’ve been bombing their families to install democracy, but I don’t see any reason they should be mad at us … or something.

    I’m curious, Mr. Durocher, if you have read Michel Houellebecq’s novel Submission, reviewed by Peak Stupidity last year. My take was that the protagonist of the book, a literature professor, was pretty OK with Islam, once he realized it meant he could get the hot young chicks without any stigma attached. Is that a reason to give up your whole country, though? It’d be cheaper and better to just include semi-yearly free vouchers for Oriental sex tours for male residents, as part of the welfare state… seems eminently fair anyway.

  2. Hrw-500 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    It could be interesting to compare Houellebecq’s novel Submissionwith Tom Kratman’s novel Caliphate.

  3. @Achmed E. Newman

    Indeed I have previously reviewed Soumission here: https://counter-currents.com/2015/02/michel-houellebecq-soumission/

    The protagonist is most likely a stand-in for Houellebecq himself. I take it accepting Islam-for-babes as one of the book’s many wry jokes. He also rationalizes polygamy on eugenic grounds.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  4. @Achmed E. Newman

    It’d be cheaper and better to just include semi-yearly free vouchers for Oriental sex tours for male residents, as part of the welfare state… seems eminently fair anyway.

    Oh Achmed, yeah, I see what you’re at ok, it is the case though that Michel Houllebecq has written at great length that such commercial sex is – terribly tiring and boring and all that so – no: Nothing compares to that lusting and willing young flesh, waiting at the professor’s door with a heavily beating heart, hoping to hear the educator’s soft-spoken raspy voice whispering it’s warm you’re welcome – come on in! and – and then, shortly thereafter, makin’ conversation with the young Blossom of the Orient about – you know, Achmed: About those Sailin’ Shoes and how they wandered from Edgar Degas all the way to the Americas and finally made it on the cover of Little Feat’s masterpiece of the same name, etc. etc. etc. – and all the while those glaringly dark young eyes, a little moisty by now…

    Paaah – – you see – that’s the very trip Michel Houellebecq’s hero in Submission is on. – This is as terrific as it gets – as long as it is not getting – even better and it will, it definitely will, see?! – so – forget about commercial sex – it won’t do, it sure won’t!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @dimples
  5. TG says:

    It’s all about the cheap labor, and economic growth that benefits only the elites and not the average person. It’s all about money. “Diversity’ and ‘multiculturalism’ are advertising slogans for policies aimed squarely at driving wages down for he many, and rents and profits up for the few.

    But for all those muslims in Europe: what will your grandchildren do, when Europe is as miserably overpopulated and impoverished as Pakistan or Bangladesh?

    • Disagree: GazaPlanet
  6. anon[427] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s difficult to find other Christians I can agree with. Oh and so much for what they think of all those Europeans and Christians dying and being enslaved for the land of Jesus; wasn’t Jesus to return there?

    “An ABC News review of dozens of Rev. Wright’s sermons, offered for sale by the church, found repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans.

    “We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost,” he told his congregation.

    Sen. Obama told the New York Times he was not at the church on the day of Rev. Wright’s 9/11 sermon. “The violence of 9/11 was inexcusable and without justification,” Obama said in a recent interview. “It sounds like he was trying to be provocative,” Obama told the paper.”
    https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/DemocraticDebate/story?id=4443788&page=1

  7. @Dieter Kief

    Have you considered writing for certain magazines, Dieter, the ones that are wrapped in plastic on the high up shelves? ;-} And, how do you know so much American music. I mean that Skynyrd one in particular.

    It’s a little slower, but this is one of my favorites:

    You are a Southern Rock aficionado, it seems. I don’t know if Little Feat counts as Southern Rock, but that boogie sound of theirs goes with it, at least:

    How about any Atlanta Rhythm Section music, Dieter? If not, look up Doraville on the tube.

    Sorry to get off the subject, Mr. Dorocher. I thank you for this and all your important articles out of France. We were there 2 years back, and saw the Notre Dame before that fire.

  8. Talha says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    For European nations it was it’s only right that the let in the people from their former colonies due to guilt.

    I think there was the issue of cheap labor as well…kind of like how economics drives a lot of immigration into the US from its southern border without any substantial colonial history in Mexico or South America.

    once he realized it meant he could get the hot young chicks without any stigma attached.

    Yeah, for marriage. For instance, out of all my extended family, only one cousin is a credentialed Muslim scholar…guess whose the only guy in my family to have recently taken on a second wife within the last couple years. Coincidence? But, there’s no hanky-panky, it’s public and open and he has to maintain her and his first wife…so no pump-and-dump (especially if you marry into certain people – like some of my uncles that married into Punjabi and Pashtuns – you do that and you’ll have a small clan arrive at your door to remove all your teeth and the police will say; “serves him right”).

    The idea about white replacement with Muslim replacement seems to be a category error of sorts. Using Arabic names as an approximation may or may not work. I know plenty of white converts who have many kids – white kids – whose names are now Arabic. So a guy who starts as Nicolas or Geoff now has kids like Aisha, Khadijah, Husain, etc. Those kids are white; blue or green eyes, white skin, etc.

    If this sister has kids, what are they classified as? I have no clue whether she married an Arab Muslim or a convert or whatever:

    Now…she quit her career to start a family. Let’s contrast this to this recent take:

    Simple question: which is the more successful of the two women in the eyes of young French women? That answer will reveal a lot.

    And the more that convert and marry other converts, then these statistics get even further skewed. I know a white couple that both converted back in the 80s; their son is a friend of mine from university days – name is Ayyub…going off of his name will give you a false assumption that he is an Arab or something instead of red-blooded American.

    It is sad that the French don’t allow for better tracking of these kinds of statistics because without proper data false conclusions will be drawn that help no one.

    I think the Submission scenario doesn’t take into account a couple of historical precedents. Islam is not exactly new – it’s had a lot of history across a lot of geography. I could see the following scenario come out based on various historical precedents.

    Local elites, already post-Christian and having only a tangential and cultural association with it, see the writing on the wall and you start to see some conversions in order for them to keep their positions. These may or may not be sincere, but to keep their position in a society where they see Islamic identity demarcating who will retain top leadership roles, they go ahead and bite the bullet. Now, previously, elite emulation was quite common (as Razib Khan once pointed out) so if the head of a tribe or a king converted, you could expect the rest to convert within a short amount of time. That is not the case among a people like the French, so it may take more time.

    These (Muslim) elites (having basically secured their position) may even consider that their position is threatened by too much immigration from other parts of the Muslim world like former colonies. Much of that is due to local elites (say in Algeria) being corrupt or inept or a general collapse of civic institutions. They may well try to intervene to try to push things in a specific direction to bring about a political/economic stability – which will help keep people in place in their countries. Soft colonization? Definitely possible; Ottomans certainly had their elites running things for centuries in a lot of North Africa. And if it done by actual French Muslims, it will have much more traction (a bit of how Turkey is in Libya – though that is a bit more of a hard intervention) especially if it leads to the common/average Muslim having better fortunes.

    All of this is speculation, of course – take it for what it’s worth…which may not be much.

    Peace.

  9. It’s a Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme.

    The more people you pack into white countries, the more profit can be made off their backs. People consume resources and drive the growth and velocity of money.

    Mass immigration is a criminal scheme designed by high-level criminals.

    • Agree: Sya Beerens
  10. German_reader says:

    Looking at the data I get the impression that the situation from the late 1970s to the late 1990s was fairly stable, but there has been explosive growth since 2000. This surprised me a bit since I had thought that mass Muslim immigration to France had happened earlier and that France didn’t have that much new immigration in recent years compared to Germany or Britain. How much non-European immigration has there been to France in the last 20 years, and what are the reasons given for it (“refugees”, “family reunification”, or simply illegals?).

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @LondonBob
  11. Anon[371] • Disclaimer says:

    We should have exterminated the jews instead of expulsing them again and again
    Now we are paying the prize

  12. The real question is, is there any serious organizing among the French right? Its time to think about parallel communities and secession.

  13. @Talha

    “Muslim elite”? What’s next? “Muslim terrorist”?

    It’s not an ethnicity but a personal/private freedom.

    • Troll: Rich
    • Replies: @Talha
  14. anon[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    “Simple question: which is the more successful of the two women in the eyes of young French women? That answer will reveal a lot.”

    What can Jesus do for a Muslim?

    • Replies: @Talha
  15. Talha says:
    @Sya Beerens

    It’s not an ethnicity

    Correct. This is one of the problems when some people assume a religion can be mapped easily to ethnicity. It doesn’t work that way for the reasons I mentioned and others I didn’t. But perhaps people used to a materialist paradigm for so long have difficulty fleshing these things out.

    These people do not lose their ethnicity when they convert:

    Again, I really wish the French were willing to keep better statistics on these matters so that we would have a better idea of what is going on because speculation on these matters is interesting, but seeing real trends would be much more helpful in determining whether we witnessing an ethnic replacement or a the beginnings of a religious shift.

    “Muslim elite”

    Yes, like the ones in Algeria or Tunisia, etc.

    Peace.

  16. Talha says:
    @anon

    You mean other than lead them into battle against Dajjal?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @fisher
  17. fisher says:
    @Talha

    Your answer is telling.
    He has still an opportunity to save the girl who made the mistake having the abortion, but there is no hope for the Muslim, because Jesus is meaningless to them.

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @RadicalCenter
  18. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    But, there’s no hanky-panky, it’s public and open and he has to maintain her and his first wife…so no pump-and-dump (especially if you marry into certain people – like some of my uncles that married into Punjabi and Pashtuns – you do that and you’ll have a small clan arrive at your door to remove all your teeth and the police will say; “serves him right”).

    Interestingly, this type of polygamy is what we have here, more or less, or at least I suspect that is the case. I am very skeptical that first wives are real wives in this arrangement. I suspect that they are effectively replaced, though they retain a right to economic maintenance. In practice, this is the same kind of serial monogamy we have had in the West these past few decades.

    The manosphere would like to replace this system with easy, walk-away-Scot-free divorce, which is far more unjust and inconsiderate that outright polygamy, though they don’t like to admit this. And a part of me can’t help but appreciate the bit about the facial rearrangement for playas. Of course, that wouldn’t work here, because girls don’t have any brothers anymore, and they don’t know their cousins. I have heard that merely having a brother with friends can scare off would be sex traffickers and correlates negatively with all sorts of bad life outcomes. I am glad my children have each other.

    I do think France will go Muslim in time, coercion or not nihilism cannot compete with theism, period.

  19. Talha says:
    @fisher

    because Jesus is meaningless to them.

    That’s your interpretation of my words. Jesus (pbuh) is one of the greatest Divinely-sent messengers (pbut) and one of our beloved prophets.

    In current day France, people mock him with impunity. Do you think that will continue to happen if France becomes majority-Muslim? Where in the Muslim world is the Son of Mary (pbuh) mocked?

    He is meaningless to increasing numbers of French (other than maybe as a punchline to a joke over cheese and wine), they are busy tearing down empty buildings where they used to mention him:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @fisher
  20. Sean says:

    These data suggest that developments in France are analogous to what we see in the rest of the Western world: very similar to Great Britain (non-Whites made up 24.4% of births in 2014 and Whites are projected to become a minority of the general population by the 2060s)

    White British are projected to become a minority of the general population by the 2060s. The bloody Poles ECT ECT EU immigrants are too numerous in Britain for a UK non-white majority by the 2060s. At least on current trends. It is slower, but still sure though.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  21. fisher says:
    @Talha

    Christ isn’t a Christian’s “prophet”, He’s their hope, and enslaving his people and forcing them to believe in your prophet won’t get them to heaven.
    There is only one reason I can think of as to why such a false narrative would be spread by Muslims, it must be to try and confuse Christians into believing that you care about Jesus to get them to stand with you like maybe your a friend but more a deceiver? Why else would you pass along such nonsense? Why not tell the truth about your feelings for Christ and Christ’s people?
    Better to have none than the fake and would never stand with you?

    • Replies: @Talha
  22. Hrw-500 says:

    Guillaume, I don’t know if you had heard of this vlogger Aldo Stérone, who’s born in Algeria and currently resides in the UK and posted this vlog in French about the learning of the Arabic language in French schools.

    Will the “Frarabic” language become more popular?

  23. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    I suspect that they are effectively replaced, though they retain a right to economic maintenance.

    I guess it depends on situation. My cousin seems to live with his first wife and the second wife seems to not be getting as good an arrangement as her. First wife can have seniority and perks since she is the mother of the majority of the children and they are older. Men are obligated to be just and equal, but it is not easy:
    “You will never be able to be just between your wives, even if it is your ardent desire. Do not incline to one of them and leave the other neglected. If you are righteous and fear Allah, then Allah is ever forgiving and merciful.” (4:129)

    And there are certain spiritual consequences:
    “If a man has two wives and he is not just between them, he will come on the Day of Resurrection with one of his sides collapsed*.” -reported in Tirmidhi

    *The word could be translated as “fallen” or “missing” as well, some interpreted it to mean paralyzed.

    The manosphere

    Often operates under the theoretical assumption that doesn’t take into account a serious patriarchy and its concerns.

    I have heard that merely having a brother with friends can scare off would be sex traffickers and correlates negatively with all sorts of bad life outcomes.

    Wouldn’t be surprised.

    nihilism cannot compete with theism, period.

    This is the existential question enough people are asking to make a difference.

    Peter Hitchens made a similar assessment about Britain:

    Or…all of this could completely go the other way and the French become hyper-militant and pull another chapter out of history like the Alhambra Decree and we’ll all have a laugh about how silly all these predictions were. Human history has many unpredictable twists and turns.

    Peace.

  24. Talha says:
    @fisher

    and enslaving his people and forcing them to believe in your prophet won’t get them to heaven

    Agreed…which is why I’m not advocating either enslaving or forcibly converting the French.

    Why not tell the truth about your feelings for Christ

    I did. The truth is that the Son of Mary (pbuh) is a revered and beloved messenger of God. This is not controversial, it’s basic level Islamic knowledge that we teach our children.

    and Christ’s people?

    People of the Book, but they got his message wrong. Again, not controversial, same thing we teach our kids.

    Look, I really, really don’t have time to argue with you about these basics. It’s not worth my time. If you think I’m lying, fine – not interested in convincing you otherwise. Put me on your ignore list and…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @so captivated
    , @Wyatt
  25. Cyrano says:

    Different European countries went with the multiculturalism scheme for different reasons. France is a special (basket) case.

    It’s almost like they want to prove to their former colonies that not only they were good masters to them while over there – in North Africa, but now they are just as good hosts to their former colonials in their own country.

    It’s like they are hoping that when their former colonies see how well France treats their émigré citizens, France will be invited to rule over their former colonies again.

    In any case, the west is in total turmoil because their elites are psychopathic degenerates, and nobody can accurately guess what’s going on in their demented minds.

    Even if France manages to impress their former colonies with how well it treats their citizens, by the time France supposedly gets invitation to rule again over them – there will be nothing left of France.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  26. neutral says:

    The problem is worse than just that, those muslims in France are mostly the MENA types, you also have a huge black population (not all muslim). France can already be considered a non white country, yet you still have the conservatism inc. idiots saying France was saved by the allies.

    • Agree: GazaPlanet
    • Replies: @Sya Beerens
  27. @Talha

    I’d rather there be no Churches than force people to stand in them and revere what they obviously do not, brainwashing the young and causing hate in the others. I would rather there be no Churches than have Muslims decide what people can or cannot say about Jesus. If there are no churches then there won’t be any people for you to deceive. The woman who had the abortion probably loves Muslims and hates Christians. If there were no churches you would be happily living in a Muslim country somewhere else with good fortune.
    Maybe at some point you may find that you wish people would live with their own people, like you want to live with yours, Jesus really doesn’t need the resentment you would cause by your hatred of others speech.

    • Agree: Kratoklastes
    • Replies: @Talha
  28. @Talha

    Algerian or Tunisian elite, etc.

    • Replies: @Talha
  29. Talha says:
    @so captivated

    This is a throw away comment by a guy with no commenting history.

    Learn to be a better representative of what Christianity has to offer; you guys don’t have the luxury of bleeding more numbers at this pace.

    Thanks for playing, try harder.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @not so captivated
  30. For all that, if we consult on Wikipedia, we are told that the Great Replacement is “a white nationalist far-right conspiracy theory which states that, with the complicity or cooperation of ‘replacist’ elites, the white French population—as well as white European population at large—is being progressively replaced with non-European peoples . . . Scholars have generally dismissed the claims of a ‘great replacement’ as being rooted in a misreading of immigration statistics and unscientific, racist views.”

    Meanwhile, the Wikipedia article for the strange term “Whiteshift” claims that “Whiteshift, white racial shift, or sometimes called white decline is the demographic and social phenomenon of white majorities gradually declining to become a minority group, sometimes labelled majority minority, and increasingly of mixed race heritage, due to consensual intermarriage and natural demographic change in the Western world.”

    Indeed, I made a comment on this peculiarity regarding the Wikipedia article on “The Great Replacment Conspiracy Theory” a few weeks ago.

    From what I understand, what makes it a “conspiracy” is not the actually demographic data, trends and future projections but the notion that a hostile elite are behind this change. Usually when arguing on Twitter I get one of two responses

    1. You have the Shaun style response of “trends change” and the claim that you cannot extrapolate past trends and claim that Whites will become a minority in the future. The interesting thing about these people is that they implicitly do think Whites becoming a minority is a bad thing otherwise they wouldn’t deny the obvious and make

    2. Then there are people who accept it is going to happen but claim not to understand the significance of it, going so far as to say that such changes are normal and have happened throughout history (true, usually these changes were accompanied by war, ethnic cleansing and genocide. This willing replacement we see today is unprecedented in human history). In the UK these people will actually cite the Anglo-Saxon invasion which happened 1600 years ago as evidence of replacement migration being normal.

    Type 1. are easy to deal with, there is a wealth of mainstream sources confirming the fact that Whites will become a minority in the coming decades, most dramatically a piece by The Guardian titled The last days of a white world.

    Type 2. are absolutely insane and deracinated to the extent that they simply do not see the significance of being a minority.

    From Wikipedia article section which analyses the claims:

    Demographer Landis MacKellar has said that around 5–10% of French residents were Muslims as of 2016, making a “replacement” unlikely, and criticized Camus’s thesis for assuming “that third- and fourth- generation ‘immigrants’ are somehow not French.”[10]

    In May 2019, political journalist Nick Cohen described the Great Replacement as a form of racism and propaganda, alongside a fear European men are not virile enough.[56] The same month, historian Anne Applebaum wrote that the conspiracy theory was used as a gateway from discussing the effects of immigration and Islam’s compatibility with the Western world to forms of extremism, such as advocating for the “remigration” or the murder of migrants.[57]

    So what you just have is a strawman argument about Muslims becoming a majority followed by an extremely risible assertion that Nth generation (where N > 2) migrants are just as French as native French. Then you have two Jews, Cohen and Applebaum talking nonsense with the first of these two claiming European men are just concerned about this development because they don’t think they are virile enough. LOL

    In the end what it comes down to is this: Enjoy the multi-culturalism and diversity, it is good for you…what you don’t like having gangs of foreign men targeting native girls for gang rape? You don’t like increased crime and terrorism? You don’t like having your culture erased and supplanted by those of foreign settlers? Well tough luck Whitey, you deserve it for your evil deeds of colonisation.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  31. Islam isn’t the worst problem for France. As the Catholic Church is dead, perhaps Islam as new religion wouldn’t be such a bad thing. Or at least a kind of Chrislam.

    The real problem facing France is blacks and junglois fevoir. All those muscled blacks are coming to beat up weaker French men and hump French women who are into Negro-worship.

  32. Rich says:

    It looks like it’s over for France. Very sad. Only a serious right wing revolution could save the indigenous French people now. Maybe those old timers were right about outlawing birth control?

  33. Talha says:
    @Sya Beerens

    Well, I certainly agree with your point; if they are both Muslim and native French, I can hardly see any reason not to keep calling them French elite…they’re not going to magically become Chinese or Jordanian.

    Peace.

  34. @Rosie

    White converts to Islam tend to be not so well adjusted. They are also extremely cringe in relation to racial matters and invariably end up shilling for non-Europeans due to Islam being an implicitly brown identity. I also remember reading somewhere that converts make up a disproportionate number of extremists.

    You are Pakistani right? Out of curiosity which ethnic group do you belong to?

    • Agree: Lot
  35. Lot says:
    @Talha

    “ I know plenty of white converts”

    Maybe you do, but I’ve never in my life known a white convert to Islam. Not directly, not slightly, not a friend of a friend. The only famous case is Cat Stevens in the 1970s.

    Islamification of the nations that created civilization and invented everything is entirely driven by TurdWorld migration, not these unicorn converts with “blue or green eyes, white skin.”

  36. @Talha

    If Jesus doesn’t offer the freedom to choose, then Jesus offers nothing at all,

  37. It’s called “Imperial Karma“, bitchez.

    France wanted to play Top Nation somewhere, so it participated in the European carve-up of Africa in the 19th century.

    Nobody forced them to participate, but their politicians thought of all that juicy shit that was there to be stolen.

    Fast-forward a few generations: the locals get some measure of technological parity in weapons, and decide “Fuck this – these thieving pricks can fuck off“.

    French politicians refuse to sling their hook, and face costly counter-insurgencies in, e.g., Algeria, that drag on and reverse the treasure-extraction.

    Politicians and generals being obsessed with ‘face’, the Frog pols ‘stay the course’ until the pain of doing so becomes too great, and then they retreat – leaving a set of locals with a grievance, who can find France on a map.

    Repeat (with or without an insurgency) for Cap Verde, Côte d’Ivoire, Senegal, Cameroon, Morocco etc. It’s a recipe for a flood of post-colonial immigrants, and it is entirely deserved.

    In French law, residents of ‘France d’outre-mer‘ are just as French as residents of “l’Hexagon” – and bear in mind that Algeria was broken into French départements until 1962; it was part of ‘France’… which might make you think that under Republican norms, people born there would be citizens of France (unless France approached citizenship like a bunch of total fucking hypocrites: “liberté, egalité, fraternité – mais pas pour toi, pauvre con” ).

    In general, illegal immigration has two primary sources: immediate neighbours (e.g., Mexico relative to the US), and conquests (current and relinquished). Of course in the case of the US, California and a good chunk of the South-West was acquired by the US from Mexico – under a range of circumstances.

    Relinquished conquests for European nations tend to be darkie-rich, mostly because of the pattern of colonialism. People from former French colonies are vastly over-represented among the sans-papiers, particularly in the cities.

    The English had the same problem – they were only too happy to steal value from India (later India/Pakistan), Australia, New Zealand and large swathes of Africa… so they should be totally unsurprised when they get an influx of Africans and Indians once they relinquished control in the mid 20th century.

    Why do ‘boat people’ try to get to Australia – halfway around the world, over oceans – from all the places that have been fucked in the ass by US-led freedom-bombing?

    Viet Nam (and Laos and Cambodia) in the late 1970s, then Somalia in the 90s, then Afghans and Iraqis more recently. They all risked their lives in often unseaworthy craft, aimed at Australia’s top west corner, which is basically a desert that will kill anyone who arrives unprepared.

    Easy: Australia is well-known in the third world as a US satrapy with a high standard of living, and has a half-decent international reputation. It was directly involved in Viet Nam and the recent US war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan. People there know its name; know it’s rich; and head towards it if they can.

    As they should: it’s the Pottery Barn rule – you broke it, you bought it. That goes for ongoing responsibility to the people in the newly-broken country, too. And it applies to all participants in the ‘coalition of the breaking’. France ought to expect a large influx of Libyans, Yemeni, Syrians and so forth.

    NB: Some Vietnamese also went to France, of course. They knew about France because of France’s colonial-era occupation: notice the pattern?

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  38. Talha says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    I think this was for me.

    White converts to Islam tend to be not so well adjusted.

    Depends on who you’re talking about. I’ve met plenty that are doing just fine. I have met a couple that I would describe as eccentric or wierdos, but the majority I have come across are normal people that are

    They are also extremely cringe in relation to racial matters

    Can’t possibly be worse than the whites on the left. I’ve had conversations with some that are fully aware that they are the patriarch-founders of new lineages or the preservers of their lines; some of them being one of the few members in their extended family with children.

    Race is the only identity that’s left when you’ve destroyed all the tribes and clans around. Race is useless to people operating on a tribal or ethno-linguistic level.

    shilling for non-Europeans due to Islam being an implicitly brown identity.

    There seems to be a split on this one. There are definitely those types – which need no help from Islam as there are plenty of non-Muslim whites shilling for non-Europeans as it is, but there are plenty of white Muslim that are not:

    So…according to the latest polling, white Muslims are just slightly more supportive of a figure like Trump than the general white public.

    I also remember reading somewhere that converts make up a disproportionate number of extremists.

    Yes. Extremist groups target those with little working knowledge of or grounding in the religion for recruitment…this is well known.

    You are Pakistani right?

    Yes.

    Out of curiosity which ethnic group do you belong to?

    I’m a Muhajir (which is a catch-all term for any Muslims that migrated from India after Partition). Mostly from Persian lineage admixed with local Hindustani folks from the Gangetic plain, my ancestor was a traveling Sufi-scholar who settled in

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  39. Rosie says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    You are Pakistani right? Out of curiosity which ethnic group do you belong to?

    Good grief, no. I am White and very proud of it. I would be very pleased indeed if I’m wrong about France, and not because of any particular animosity towards Muslims. I don’t think French secularism is inherently nihilistic, but it has been since…help me out, the summer of 68?

  40. Talha says:
    @Lot

    Maybe you do, but I’ve never in my life known a white convert to Islam.

    Yeah, well I frequent mosques and you don’t, so that goes without saying.

    the nations that created civilization

    LOOOOL!!!

    not these unicorn converts with “blue or green eyes, white skin.”

    The numbers will shift as policies do, but yes – absolutely – the current increase is definitely due to open borders. People want that to stop? Simple, shut down the borders, it’ll be helpful for everyone involved:

    Peace.

  41. @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    White converts to Islam are not alone.

    Converts to anything tend to be maladjusted. It is maladjustment – inability to cope with the world as it is – that leads to people shopping around for a repository of meaning, and latching on to a gallimaufry of objectively-preposterous bullshit.

    People who are indoctrinated into some or other primitive drivel as children, have some excuse: their brains are infected with the drivel from a young age, so it takes an effort of will (and risk of social exclusion) to slough it off.

    Deliberately seeking membership of some version of drivel is a dysgenic trait (assuming that intelligence is a eugenic trait). I wouldn’t even make an exception the ‘conversion’ is a requirement for marriage – in that case the convert chose the wrong spouse: any spouse for whom religion is a deal-breaker, is the wrong person.

  42. Talha says:
    @Talha

    …who settled in…what is now known as Uttar Pradesh.

  43. @German_reader

    This surprised me a bit since I had thought that mass Muslim immigration to France had happened earlier and that France didn’t have that much new immigration in recent years compared to Germany or Britain.

    The rise isn’t necessarily related to immigration. It may be higher fertility that is driving it.

  44. @Cyrano

    In any case, the west is in total turmoil because their elites are psychopathic degenerates, and nobody can accurately guess what’s going on in their demented minds.

    Yes, try as I might I really cannot grasp the mental functioning of the inscrutable libtard. If they were but a small minority I would simply recommend shooting them all – just do the dirty deed and then cry about it later if you must – but when at least half your people (including your own family members) share the same delusions, that’s rather, let’s say, impractical.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  45. @Lot

    ‘…Islamification of the nations that created civilization and invented everything is entirely driven by TurdWorld migration, not these unicorn converts with “blue or green eyes, white skin.”

    What do you think about ‘Jewification’ — a process which, I’ll point out, is also quite recent?

    Should we refer to Eastern European Ashkenazim as coming from the ‘Turdworld’? Why or why not?

    Of course, you’re half ‘turd,’ aren’t you? That could shift your perspective.

    …I suppose. Does it?

    • Replies: @Lot
  46. @silviosilver

    ‘The rise isn’t necessarily related to immigration. It may be higher fertility that is driving it.’

    That is one question that interests me. So — say — France has a 1.71 children per woman sub-replacement birthrate (number just guessed at)

    Okay…so how does that break out by ethnicity? I remember seeing the average negress in France: one on hand and another visibly on the way. Would it be — say — 3.7 for subsaharan Africans, 2.8 for North African and Asian Muslims, 1.9 for non-French Europeans, and 0.9 for actual, white Frenchwomen?

    What? Obviously, the answer has a lot to do with how acute and serious the problem is. After all, if France gently declines to where it is as populous as it was in 1789, so what? If, at that point half the population are negroes and the other half Muslims of Berber stock, that’s a different matter.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  47. @Rosie

    ‘Good grief, no. I am White and very proud of it. I would be very pleased indeed if I’m wrong about France, and not because of any particular animosity towards Muslims. I don’t think French secularism is inherently nihilistic, but it has been since…help me out, the summer of 68?’

    France is a wonderful country. They should put me in charge. I will try to fix it.

    • LOL: Talha
  48. @Kratoklastes

    White converts to Islam are not alone.

    Converts to anything tend to be maladjusted.

    That’s the same reason I tend not to trust converts to Christianity from Islam. Of course, whether they’re trustworthy or not, or whether they convert to Christianity or not, apostasy from Islam must be vigorously encouraged.

    That said, purely religious considerations are not the only reasons for converting. ‘Christian’ civilization – aka European civilization – is vastly superior to anything the lowly Mohammedans have ever achieved, so wanting to associate yourself with it should count as evidence of being of sound mind.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  49. @Talha

    I’ll take Stevie Nicks.

    • Replies: @Talha
  50. @Lot

    Maybe you do, but I’ve never in my life known a white convert to Islam.

    That’s not a bad social-screening question, one you could innocently slip into a conversation: say, I was thinking about this the other day, have you ever personally known a white convert to Islam? (If you need to explain why you’re asking, you can say someone asked you the same thing and you couldn’t think of any, which “felt weird” to you because there’s supposedly plenty of these people around.)

    Btw, I think there was some French soccer player on their national team a few years ago who was a white convert (cbf looking up the name). These tend to be the exceptions that proves the rule though. The extreme unattractiveness of Islamo-garbage ensures that converting to it will only be a fringe phenomenon. (Or so I say as I nervously lol.)

    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Lot
    , @German_reader
    , @anonymous
  51. Lot says:
    @Colin Wright

    “ Should we refer to Eastern European Ashkenazim as coming from the ‘Turdworld’? Why or why not?”

    Hmm, here’s one reason “why not” for you.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  52. @Colin Wright

    For the proportion of muslims to have gone from 10% to 20% over 20 years, the growth in the muslim population would have had to outpace the growth of the non-muslim population by about 6% annually. For this to have occurred solely as a result of fertility, the fertility difference would have to be horrifically large. Muslims would have had to have had sub-Saharan-like fertility levels. I don’t think their fertility has been that high – even if many muslim families I have known have had upwards of five kids. Immigration would, as a rough guess, had to have played about the half the part.

    Or maybe these estimates just aren’t that good, and the muslim population isn’t as high as 20%.

    • Agree: J
  53. Lot says:
    @silviosilver

    Probably most examples of white converts are to marry a Muslim by birth, or prison evangelism on Europe, where prison Islam isn’t associated with blacks.

    The Koran really has nothing to recommend it. Secular writers make allusions to the Bible and Greek, Roman, and Nordic mythology all the time. But the Koran just lacks that spark of divinity, and is base, incoherent, repetitive, and dreary.

    • Agree: silviosilver
    • Troll: Colin Wright
  54. Talha says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Sure, and I think plenty of white women would definitely choose her path; lots of fame and no family or kids…the future belongs to those who bother to show up.

    Peace.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  55. Thanks for the article Guillaume.

    No need to mention Belgium, of course. That place was lost to the invasion years ago!

    What a horrible shock to visit the wonderful Ghent Altarpiece only to emerge from St. Bavo’s to see the muslim horde outside.

    What a horrible shock to visit the Groeningemuseum in Bruges to enjoy the works of Van Eyck only to emerge to see the muslim horde outside.

    Disgraceful!!

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  56. @Talha

    Sorry for the late reply, Talha. I got on the wrong foot with you way, way back on one of the threads just due to your being Moslem, but I respect you as one of the most civil and clear-thinking commenters on the site. That doesn’t mean I agree Islamic rule would be a good thing for the US or France. Islamic rule (Sharia, whatever) would be in effect, as soon as the Moslem majority gets big enough to overrule any last semblance of Constitutional rule-of-law.

    I think you are right that the French people’s leaving their Christianity in the dust opens up the way for Islam there. We have a much smaller Moslem minority in the US, proportional-wise, Allah-be-praised, but America is quickly losing any religion either (besides the wokeness religion, which could easily be a worse thing than Islam – I think of Mao’s China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, and such).

    I also have never met a white soul (OK, a soul in a white body) who has converted to Islam. I do think you are right that Moslems of different ethnicities won’t have the same effects on the culture of this country. Any of them, if they take the religion seriously and were to reach large numbers, would not be compatible with any kind of Western rule of law, were we ever to try to get back to that again.

    I respect the Moslems for their conservatism regarding relations between the sexes. Almost everyone will tell you that the Moslems go too far but I’m sure there are different levels, with the Saudi-style no-driving etc being the far end. The problem with the West is that we’ve had the 1960s cultural revolution, with feminism pushed into high gear, that ruined what had been the best balance of sex roles. Feminism is one of the biggest evils introduced by the leftists to the world, and Islam does a nice job in stifling that shit. We can learn a lot from you guys, but I don’t want to live in any Islamic country.

    PS: How about give me another option besides that former rapper (how do you get back from that??) and Stevie Nicks? I’ll take Christie McVie any time, if we’re talking Fleetwood Mac, but, rats, she and I are already married to others.

    • Replies: @Talha
  57. Muslims often chant on the Paris Metro about how they’re going to replace the French, who they view as weak infidels. Great.

    Ah, but there’s a rub, of course. When the “Labrador Retriever” Whites are gone, these Muslim children will come up against psychopathic satanic j*ws, who, of course, are a far different opponent.

  58. @Lot

    ‘…The Koran really has nothing to recommend it. Secular writers make allusions to the Bible and Greek, Roman, and Nordic mythology all the time. But the Koran just lacks that spark of divinity, and is base, incoherent, repetitive, and dreary.’

    Lot! I did not know you could read Arabic. You’re a man of many talents!

    • LOL: Talha
  59. @Lot

    ‘Hmm, here’s one reason “why not” for you.’

    I didn’t see a slice for ‘Eastern European shtetls’ there, Lot. Maybe you could name some of the schools you’re referring to.

  60. German_reader says:
    @silviosilver

    I thought about that as well, but is it really possible that 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Muslims in France have higher fertility than the original immigrants (instead of the opposite as I would expect)? Or has the fertility of Français de souche cratered so much? Either way an in-depth explanation of what’s driving the increased share of Muslims would be interesting. But I suppose it may not be possible given the lack of data for France.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  61. German_reader says:
    @silviosilver

    Btw, I think there was some French soccer player on their national team a few years ago who was a white convert

    That’s Franck Ribéry, married to a woman of Algerian descent. Struck me as unusual, more commonly it’s women who convert to Islam because of marriage to Muslim men. But I suppose conversion to Islam might be an attractive option to some of the native French remaining in the banlieues, to improve their grim situation.

  62. Anonymous[368] • Disclaimer says:

    You can hate on the politicians, the media, the academics etc as much as you want for this ridiculous, sorry state of affairs, but ultimately the blame *MUST* be attributed to the French people, specifically, the French electorate.

    Just how many times did the *French people* have the chance to elect Le Pen but rejected him?

  63. Anonymous[368] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    No.

    ‘These people’ actually *DO NOT* think that whites becoming a minority in their own homelands is a ‘bad thing’.
    No.
    They only deny it because they ‘do not want to frighten the horses’.

  64. Muslims often chant on the Paris Metro about how they’re going to replace the French, who they view as weak infidels.

    Surely it is the ruling class and the chewish virus keeping the French people in such a position? The French people are NOT weak.

    A new Charles Martel is out there, just waiting for the opportunity to clean house.

  65. @Rosie

    Apologies, my reply was meant to be addressed to user Talha and his comment #8

    • Thanks: Rosie
  66. Teacher knifed to death in France after showing class cartoons of Prophet Mohammad

    “Knifed to death” is an understatement, the teacher was in reality fully decapitated. The suspect is an 18 year old ethnic Chechen born in Moscow apparently

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  67. LondonBob says:
    @German_reader

    Immigration was relatively low to stable in Britain from Thatcher until Blair when it absolutely exploded and has remained high ever since.

  68. To steal a line from Thoreau, the West erupted like a Parthian, and was off again, shooting while it retreated; but the Third World has conquered like a Roman, and settled colonies.

  69. @Talha

    The number of converts to Islam is tiny compared to the number of apostates. Any religious shift in France it seems, would also be a ethnic shift. It’s not the reformation.

    • Replies: @Talha
  70. Talha says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    This is not borne out by the data. Islam is either gaining as many people as it loses or slightly more (world):

    And a specific country like the US:
    “Like Americans in many other religious groups, a substantial share of adults who were raised Muslim no longer identify as members of the faith. But, unlike some other faiths, Islam gains about as many converts as it loses.”
    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

    The major difference between them (if you follow these people like I do) is that our apostates mostly tend to go atheist and hyper-liberal; with much lower rates of getting married and having kids. I’ve had conversations with some high profile apostates and they know this. lol into it yourself.

    Meanwhile, the converts we get tend to be family oriented people. Almost all the converts I have come across (when they have done so at a relatively young age) have had at least 3 kids. They are attracted to the family aspect:

    Our apostates simply get replaced by others. Not surprising:
    “… Allah is Free of need, while you are the destitute. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.” (47:38)

    “O you who believe! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him…” (5:54)

    Train keeps moving, abandon your seat? You were just keeping it warm for someone else.

    Peace.

  71. @German_reader

    I thought about that as well, but is it really possible that 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Muslims in France have higher fertility than the original immigrants (instead of the opposite as I would expect)?

    It wouldn’t matter that their fertility isn’t as high as the original immigrants’; it just needs to be higher than the native French fertility. But as I mentioned in a separate post, having thought about it, I don’t think it’s been higher enough to account for the spectacular rise in the proportion of the population that is muslim. A rise like that would almost certainly have to have been caused in large part by immigration, or else the estimate is simply inaccurate and the true muslim proportion is closer to 15% than 20%. (Of course, even if that’s the case, unless policy changes, 20% will be reached and surpassed soon enough – a point not exactly lost on anyone reading this blog, but worth mentioning all the same.)

  72. @Talha

    “… Allah is Free of need,

    Actually, he comes across like a needy little bitch, the way he’s constantly pestering people to listen to him and do as he says. If he wasn’t so needy, why would he do this?

    Supposedly, the difference between Allah and me is many times greater than the difference between me and ants, but you don’t see me getting upset if ants don’t like me. Ants don’t like me? No biggie, I’m not losing any sleep over it. But if humans don’t like Allah, boy that really ticks him off. Sounds pretty needy to me.

    (Btw, isn’t it awesome that my country has invited in (and continues to, at a furious pace) shit tons of people who’d like to cave my head it – indeed, detach it from my body – for speaking this way?)

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Colin Wright
  73. Talha says:
    @silviosilver

    Actually, he comes across like a needy little bitch

    You’ll get a chance to tell Him this directly.

    I’m not interested in trying to convince of Islam or challenge your feelz about it, everyone has an opinion; read over my posts on this thread – I’m talking about statistics and trends and my personal experience with what I have seen and potential predictions about which way it may or may not turn out in the future.

    You don’t like Islam? Get in line.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golems
  74. Talha says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Sorry for the late reply, Talha.

    No problem – the fact that you have other things to do than respond to people online is a healthy sign.

    I got on the wrong foot with you way, way back

    Water under the bridge.

    That doesn’t mean I agree Islamic rule would be a good thing for the US or France.

    Of course. The only people that are fully positive about this would be Muslims for obvious reasons.

    The problem with the West is that we’ve had the 1960s cultural revolution

    Yeah, that was a big one and it seems very difficult to roll that back.

    I’ll take Christie McVie any time

    LOL! Bro, I wasn’t talking about who you’d want to hook up with, it was more a point of examples of one kind of female that tends to stick around on earth via progeny and another who gets replaced by the former. The question is; who are young French women more likely to want to emulate – this is a key question for their future.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  75. @Kratoklastes

    #42

    Converts to anything tend to be maladjusted. It is maladjustment – inability to cope with the world as it is – that leads to people shopping around for a repository of meaning, and latching on to a gallimaufry of objectively-preposterous bullshit.

    Have you ever lived among the millions of American converts to American Zionist-Evangelism that has so confounded and confused Christianity. It today worships the Israeli state and prays for WWIII so the nuking of the world will have them raptured to heaven. Somehow these people and their TV theologians in mega mansion estates are defining the religious paradigm of the first world.

    And you would put down Muslims??? For what, being pious, religiously tolerant, living an ethical and spiritual life style (of course excluding the Muslim born street thugs found throughout France) ?

    Maybe in 100 years or s , it will be viewed as a blessing that a large number of Muslims joined French society and reinvigorated a moral and spiritual life to the materialistic degeneracy that our Capitalistic society has purposely caused. The North African migrants of older generations are largely French now, even if non-Catholic and even if not welcomed into French society proper.

    I say this as coming from a background of a University brain washed atheist, moving to agnostic and now realizing that spirituality is a key factor for a balanced life and outlook.

    While I too think that Europe/EI should curb all outside immigration and encourage with repatriation with material offers for recent immigrants. Above all maybe France and the EU should end their role as purveyors of colour revolutions and hybrid warfare against so many of these Afro-Middle Eastern countries through the use of religiously driven mercenaries. Creating stability instead of instability is a key to keeping the migrants at home.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  76. Anonymous[315] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    Don’t you think that that head looks a bit like Macron’s?

    Surely, there’s an omen (ahem, ahem) there somewhere.

  77. Cyrano says:
    @silviosilver

    The west has abandoned values based system some 80 years ago. Since then, everything that they do is for propaganda purposes. There are already several generations of westerners raised on nothing but propaganda. It’s no wonder that so many of them buy into that western “liberalism” BS. Western “liberalism” was supposed to be the answer to socialism. Except, nobody asked them anything, and in any case their “answer” to socialism is wrong. Or, maybe they didn’t understand the question.

  78. @Talha

    LOL! Bro, I wasn’t talking about who you’d want to hook up with, it was more a point of examples of one kind of female that tends to stick around on earth via progeny and another who gets replaced by the former.

    Nah, I got your point, Talha. That was just a joke for serious Rock Music fans. See, British/American band Fleetwood Mac one of the best of all the great rock bands of the 1970’s, had 3 lead singers, Stevie Nicks, Christine McVie (married to John McVie, the bass player), and Lindsey Buckingham, the guitarist.

    People got all into Stevie Nicks simply because she WAS a hottie. She did not have a great voice, IMO. Plenty of good singers have throaty voices, like cigarette smokers, as Stevie Nicks did. However, Christine McVie had a much smoother, sweeter voice. (She also played keyboards.)

    Listen to Christie McVie and tell me who’s the better singer. John McVie has this great bass slide that really makes the song too – can’t listen to this on a damn computer!

    HOWEVER, Lindsey Buckingham had some really good ones, a number of which 99% of American have never even heard. #SHAMEFUL!

    One of the best off the 2nd! self-titled album, called Blue Letter

    Honestly (and not for you, Talha), if you can’t appreciate this music, I don’t care how long ago your forefathers came here, Get the Fuck Out!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Talha
  79. @Achmed E. Newman

    Dang, no 5-minute editor on Windows 7, 10 y/o Mozilla.

    HERE:

  80. Sirius says:

    Please note that you can be white and Muslim at the same time. Amazingly, you can even be French and Muslim at the same time too.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @silviosilver
  81. @Talha

    You don’t like Islam? Get in line.

    Islam isn’t really the issue but third world people and their awful norms. Your glossy presentations don’t match facts on the ground in Western Europe.

    The quality of non-black Muslims in the U.S. just reflects a better immigration selection process. In contrast Brits imported millions of semi-illiterate villagers from the Indian subcontinent who are so problematic.

    Unemployment rates for your Pakistani kin in the UK are close to 60% despite affirmative action. Alongside Bangladeshis and blacks they receive the most in welfare benefits per capita.

    Pakistanis, particularly those from Kashmir, also account for 30% (The Telegraph – 29/12/2008) of all birth defects (blindness, deafness, and neuro-degenerative conditions) in the National Health Service (NHS) because of marrying first cousins.

    According to the Quilliam Foundation (a Muslim outfit) Pakistanis and like also make up 84% of so-called grooming gangs pimping out British girls whom they see as ‘easy meat’.

    Unlike peers in America they vote overwhelming for the leftwing anti-British Labour Party because of ‘gibs’. The London Mayor, who is Pakistani, has been feuding with El Trumpo on Twitter for years.

    This isn’t sustainable long-term as ordinary Brits and French people who pay taxes to finance this type of parasitism are being outbred.

    BTW regardless of ‘white’ (on paper) Muslim voting patterns, the United States of America was designed for Europeans (see Naturalization Act of 1790). In 1965 organized Jewry and proxies like Edward Kennedy opened the borders to former undesirables.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Talha
  82. Wyatt says:
    @Talha

    Is there a reason that “people of the book” are relegated to second class citizenship and treated anywhere between indentured servants and helots by the people who’s presence in a region guarantees a spike in inbreeding?

    • Replies: @Talha
  83. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sirius

    This is the sort of discourse we have to deal with.

    Couillons!!!!

    • Replies: @Sirius
  84. Talha says:
    @Wyatt

    Is there a reason that “people of the book” are relegated to second class citizenship

    Depends on your definition of second class citizen. In any given Muslim-majority country, Muslims are always going to be the alphas – that goes without saying. Because, as I have mentioned previously…

    Islam always makes itself the alpha religion wherever it becomes established – because it earned it; either it smashed the previous order on the battlefield with spears and shields (as in previous Byzantine and Sassanid territory) or through traveling preachers/scholars (mostly Sufis to be perfectly honest) where no external Muslim armies penetrated (as in places like Malaysia, the Caucasus, West Africa, and Nubia).

    The very top political and military positions will be exclusively in their hands. There is no need to give the keys to one’s civilizational castle to others that do not have the same world view as you. In that sense, definitely second-class. But it’s not just People of the Book, it’s basically anyone else (Buddhists, atheists, etc.) that would also be excluded from those positions.

    treated anywhere between indentured servants and helots

    Hardly. There are plenty of Muslim countries where non-Muslims live just fine without much hassle and go abut their business without fanfare. In fact, plenty of French themselves like a stable country like Morocco just fine to spend their twilight years in:
    “Morocco is the third country after Portugal and Thailand that French people prefer to settle in, according to an investigation published by French website Retraite Sans Frontieres.

    According to the same source, Morocco is a preferred destination for its geographical proximity to France, its large French expatriate community, and its cost of living that is 40 percent cheaper.”
    https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2019/01/262532/french-winters-morocco-spring/

    They hire local Moroccans as servants.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Wyatt
  85. @silviosilver

    ‘Actually, he comes across like a needy little bitch, the way he’s constantly pestering people to listen to him and do as he says. If he wasn’t so needy, why would he do this?

    ‘Supposedly, the difference between Allah and me is many times greater than the difference between me and ants, but you don’t see me getting upset if ants don’t like me. Ants don’t like me? No biggie, I’m not losing any sleep over it. But if humans don’t like Allah, boy that really ticks him off. Sounds pretty needy to me.

    ‘(Btw, isn’t it awesome that my country has invited in (and continues to, at a furious pace) shit tons of people who’d like to cave my head it – indeed, detach it from my body – for speaking this way?)

    Well…replace ‘Allah’ with ‘Christ,’ go — say — to some town in Brazil — or Tennessee — where the locals are big on Evangelicalism, and give your spiel.

    Be sure ‘n post live video. We all want to watch.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  86. @Amerimutt Golems

    ‘…BTW regardless of ‘white’ (on paper) Muslim voting patterns, the United States of America was designed for Europeans (see Naturalization Act of 1790). In 1965 organized Jewry and proxies like Edward Kennedy opened the borders to former undesirables.’

    But you see, there’s the problem.

    You’re blaming the wrong people. It’s not those flooding in you should be attacking — it’s those who let them in.

    If my neighbor starts feeding feral cats, the problem isn’t the feral cats.

    It’s the neighbor.

  87. Talha says:
    @Amerimutt Golems

    Your glossy presentations don’t match facts on the ground in Western Europe.

    What glossy presentations? When did I say Muslim immigration has been peaches and cream. In fact, I think any more Muslim immigration may well be detrimental to both Muslims and their host countries. I’m much more interested in Islam “going native” which may actually be deterred by a constant inflows of problematic Muslim immigrants.

    This isn’t sustainable long-term as ordinary Brits and French people who pay taxes to finance this type of parasitism are being outbred.

    Agreed. Very, very stupid policies – high IQ populations may be intelligent, but wisdom is another trait altogether.

    If you want to debate with a person who wants to uphold why more Muslims should be allowed in the West, I suggest you find them, because that’s not me.

    the United States of America was designed for Europeans (see Naturalization Act of 1790).

    Yup…well, them and their African slaves, but – yes, agreed.

    In 1965 organized Jewry and proxies like Edward Kennedy opened the borders to former undesirables.

    Sounds about right. See my earlier note about not handing over the keys to one’s civilizational castle to someone who may not be on the same page as you.

    Peace.

  88. Talha says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    People got all into Stevie Nicks simply because she WAS a hottie.

    I gotta admit, I still thought Stevie Nicks had a better voice, but that’s just me.

    Hotness, in evolutionary terms, doesn’t really amount to anything if it doesn’t lead to reproduction and passing along those genes; which is the whole point of the hotness to begin with.

    If a cheese pizza gets eaten and a the-works pizza doesn’t and gets thrown away…the extra toppings were simply a waste.

    Honestly (and not for you, Talha), if you can’t appreciate this music, I don’t care how long ago your forefathers came here, Get the Fuck Out!

    I used to have one of their greatest hits compilations. That was ages ago…back when I could pull off 50 pushups in under a minute…been a while.

    Peace.

  89. anonymous[325] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    whether they convert to Christianity or not, apostasy from Islam must be vigorously encouraged.

    Yeah, the smartest are those who repudiate the Oneness of God (a simple enough logic which doesn’t depend on hearsay), and then contort their feeble minds by accepting, God is 3 entities in the garb of 1 (illogical hearsay garbage even born Christians can’t seem to stomach anymore)… Why, because s/he saw the blessed Jesus (pbuh) in a dream?! Lol!

    Btw, I have noted that many of those who apostatise from Islam are; queer, abused as a child, Shia/Ahmadi (heard of Nabeel Qureshi)/Bohra…, too westernised, etc. In other words, people who are psychologically damaged and/or deviants already.

    In stark contrast, many of those who convert to Islam seem like normal intelligent people who have grown disillusioned with pagan concepts such as Trinity/Trimurthi, the promiscuous/intoxicant/shameless/anything-goes values of the non-Islamic world.

    Anyway, for me as a true monotheist, it doesn’t matter how many muslims are there in this world, or how many choose to remain in the fold (more the merrier, sure), all I care about is meeting my Maker, proclaiming His Oneness.

    People like you will indeed go to Hell, in all likelihood. That is simply icing on the cake. 😀

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  90. Anonymous[183] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Islam is absolutely intolerant of all other belief systems – and for very good reason.

    Another, rival, belief system, no matter how marginal or insignificant, implies doubt. Now, doubt and ambiguity in religion, or denial of religion, absolutely cannot occur in the ideal Muslim state/world – which is the ultimate goal – in that Islam holds that it is the only way, and the perfection of revelation.
    Hence, the goal of Islam is totalitarian in the truest since – the world must come to a state at which there are no kuffar left.

    The strange fact is that western political leaders either cannot or will not understand this very obvious and elementary fact that is as true now as it was 1500 years ago.
    Either they are too ignorant or puffed up with their own arrogance.

    • Replies: @bjondo
    , @Talha
  91. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    Well…replace ‘Allah’ with ‘Christ,’ go — say — to some town in Brazil — or Tennessee — where the locals are big on Evangelicalism, and give your spiel.

    I despise evangelicals, but how many people have they recently murdered for mocking Christ? There’s not remotely any equivalence here.
    imo you’re making a mistake common to many who dislike Israel/Jewish influence in Western countries or are rightly appalled at the consequences of Western military interventions of the last 30 years, Muslims aren’t your friend or fine as immigrants just because you think “enemy of my enemy can’t be all bad”.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  92. anonymous[325] • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    The extreme unattractiveness of Islamo-garbage ensures that converting to it will only be a fringe phenomenon.

    If you think the true monotheism of Islam is garbage and extremely unattractive, wait’ll you take a gander at such pagan abominations as the Trinity/Trimurthi/TripleDeities/Animal-worship, “Godhead as a corporation with 3 departments” or “God is like H2O” *choke*, rapist/gay deities (batcrap hindoo stuff), etc.

    Perhaps western brains are structured to suit this bizzaro spiritually hallucinating world, where all that latter stuff I quoted, is a mark of pure genius. 🙂

    fringe phenomenon

    Except, studies point to the fact that Islam is indeed the fastest growing, even in the context of conversions. Of course, I concede that many are leaving too (poor souls), but that could be because… (see my earlier post for you).

  93. bjondo says:
    @Anonymous

    Unlike Yid, Muslims live in the real world.

    I’ve lived in several Muslim worlds. No problems.

    Are you like a Never Trumper? Do you believe your own rubbish?

    5 dancing shlomos

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  94. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    Islam is absolutely intolerant of all other belief systems

    It’s tolerant, it just doesn’t plan on sharing alpha status with them. It never claimed to be some secular liberal system. If – in the US – they came up with rules that Muslims would be excluded from top political positions of power, that would mean that the US is not treating Islam equally, but it doesn’t mean it is not tolerant of it. Now if they instituted laws to burn down mosques and hunt down and kill Muslims; yeah – not tolerant.

    Another, rival, belief system, no matter how marginal or insignificant, implies doubt.

    Maybe for you.

    Islam is doing just fine, it is about to take the top position of world religions from Christianity possibly within our lifetimes. Even according to the most accurate stats, more people are coming into Islam than are leaving it (and this is in the West where there are no rules about swapping religions). Why should a religion with 1/4 to 1/3 market share worry; product sells itself.

    Either they are too ignorant or puffed up with their own arrogance.

    Possibly both, I mean they thought bombing Libya was going to bring out awesomeness.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  95. Adûnâi says: • Website
    @Guillaume Durocher

    An amazing article! I wish to live to the 2040s to see this future come into being!

    Have you noticed that the term Eurabia has fallen out of use?
    https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%2Fm%2F02m17s

    My geographical vision of that time:

    The Crusaders of tomorrow are the warriors of Tawheed eager to wrestle Jerusalem out of Shia hands. Only the might of the Turkish and Aryan Empires is the guarantor of peace.

    • Replies: @Guillaume Durocher
  96. Wyatt says:
    @Talha

    Islam always makes itself the alpha religion wherever it becomes established – because it earned it; either it smashed the previous order on the battlefield with spears and shields (as in previous Byzantine and Sassanid territory) or through traveling preachers/scholars (mostly Sufis to be perfectly honest) where no external Muslim armies penetrated (as in places like Malaysia, the Caucasus, West Africa, and Nubia).

    But that’s not the case in Europe. In Sweden, France and Germany, the muslims have been imported by neoliberals and are enforcing sharia in their no-go zones. They didn’t earn anything as either soldiers or “scholars” as you put it. Indeed, the muslims there are some of the most execrable members of those societies, burdened by inbreeding and consuming a disproportionate amount of welfare despite putting very little in. Barring maybe the turks, most European nations gain no benefit from having all of these muslims in them.

    Indeed, this reference you make to Morocco is particularly telling.

    In fact, plenty of French themselves like a stable country like Morocco just fine to spend their twilight years in:

    Morocco is a former French colonial holding that has taken in a good deal of French culture and custom, including the French language. It helps retirees when the locals speak the same language. The French are not going to Arab nations they never influenced.

    I find your answer a bit unsatisfactory. Given the domination of western mindsets and Christian nations in science, military, mathematical and engineering endeavors, does Islam have a justifiable claim to seek domination through religious means if they had not shown the capacity that Christian nations have? Why should anyone, especially non-Abrahamic peoples, see Islamic expansion as any way justifiable?

    • Replies: @Talha
  97. Talha says:

    Here you go, see? Nothing to worry about:
    “ France has shut down more than 70 mosques and private Islamic schools since January, authorities have confirmed.
    At least 73 mosques and Islamic private schools across France have been closed by authorities since January, in a bid to combat “extremist Islam”, Interior Minister Gerald Darmanan said on Tuesday.

    The minister also called for the expulsion of hundreds of foreign nationals from France.”
    https://english.alaraby.co.uk/english/amp/news/2020/10/14/france-has-shut-down-dozens-of-mosques-islamic-schools

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Dieter Kief
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  98. Adûnâi says: • Website
    @Kratoklastes

    > “Nobody forced them to participate, but their politicians thought of all that juicy shit that was there to be stolen.”

    The Europeans brought technology and civilisation to the empty, savage lands of Africa.

    > “The English had the same problem – they were only too happy to steal value from India (later India/Pakistan), Australia, New Zealand and large swathes of Africa…”

    The Anglos were stealing value from uninhabited Australia? Is mining asteroids “stealing value” to you likewise?

    > “Some Vietnamese also went to France, of course.”

    Why didn’t the French close their own border? Why did the French accept the foreigners? (Answer: because they worship Jesus’ morality.)

    > “As they should: it’s the Pottery Barn rule – you broke it, you bought it.

    Spectacularly wrong! The Europeans had not to colonise the savages, but break them, and break them good. No Negroes – no problem.

  99. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @bjondo

    If you are a muslim – and I’m pretty sure you are – and you write this, then either you are:
    1/.Lying through your teeth
    2/. An apostate, hypocrite and kuffar who is only giving ‘lip service’ of the faith.
    3/. A fool.

    Every *true* believing Muslim hopes and prays for the day the entire world is Muslim. Otherwise, quite simply, he’s a kuffar and hypocrite – the worst of all.

    It really is as simple and basic as that.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  100. Christians have forgotten God. Nature abhors a vacuum. Islam is filling it.

  101. Talha says:
    @Wyatt

    They didn’t earn anything as either soldiers or “scholars” as you put it.

    Absolutely right. As I said before, I’m not a fan of this kind of immigration. Why are Europeans importing people by the thousands from incompatible cultures in order to pay them welfare? Sounds fairly stupid. They should simply close their doors. Why don’t they? You should ask Europeans that.

    Given the domination of western mindsets and Christian nations in science, military, mathematical and engineering endeavors, does Islam have a justifiable claim to seek domination through religious means if they had not shown the capacity that Christian nations have?

    Like most people around here, you are making a category error. What does religion have to do with building better helicopters? Have people lost the entire idea of what religion is about?

    Religion gives people a sense of existential purpose, without which a lot of the other stuff is meaningless to them. Maybe to you it is, but for others it isn’t. Here is a survey of why people converted to Islam:

    Do you see anything about “it helped me with math” on there?

    “For the mystery of man’s being is not only in living, but in what one lives for. Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.” – Dostoevsky (Brothers Karamazov)

    I suggest reading the chapter “On the Possibility of Islamic Resurgence” by Belloc:
    “In the major thing of all, religion, we have fallen back and Islam has, in the main, preserved its soul.”
    The Essential Belloc: A Prophet for Our Times

    Why should anyone, especially non-Abrahamic peoples, see Islamic expansion as any way justifiable?

    If most Europeans themselves eventually end up wanting it, they won’t need to justify anything to anyone.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  102. @German_reader

    ‘I despise evangelicals, but how many people have they recently murdered for mocking Christ? There’s not remotely any equivalence here.
    imo you’re making a mistake common to many who dislike Israel/Jewish influence in Western countries or are rightly appalled at the consequences of Western military interventions of the last 30 years, Muslims aren’t your friend or fine as immigrants just because you think “enemy of my enemy can’t be all bad”.’

    I wouldn’t go as far as you do, but your point is valid.

    However, I will note that I don’t want to let anyone immigrate to my country — regardless of race, creed, or color. It’s a bit like bears in the living room. A Polar Bear would presumably be even less desirable than a Spectacled Bear — but actually, I don’t want either one.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  103. bjondo says:
    @Anonymous

    Christian.

    Christians as well as Muslims, for the most part,
    do not accept the “Yid”con con. Your rubbish.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  104. bjondo says:
    @bjondo

    did not mean quote marks around Yid – YidCon

  105. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    However, I will note that I don’t want to let anyone immigrate to my country

    I can sympathize with that and am opposed to large-scale immigration myself in principle, but certain groups are clearly more problematic than others. Muslims aren’t assimilable, their religion, with its long history of enmity against Christendom and its in-built striving for dominance, is incompatible with Western societies, whether Christian or secular (one only has to read Talha’s comments here, as polite as he is, his mindset with all his endless and extremely tiresome references to his prophet or obscure Islamic scholars is as alien as that of a Martian to me, there is simply no common ground with somebody who thinks like that).
    Of course it would be a mistake to limit the issue only to Islam, the great replacement is bad in any case.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  106. songbird says:

    I know someone who visited Paris in the early 1960s, courtesy of the US draft. He was just there for a short time, being stationed in Germany. He said that some of the Arabs there, “looked like they had just walked out of the woods.” I take that to mean, some looked like complete savages, and fully believe it.

    Quite terrifying to contemplate because a few weeks ago, in America, I saw an African who looked like he had just spat out his khat and set down his AK-47. That was in a rural area of New Hampshire, a state many consider a white state, but which now is far less white than France was in the ’60s.

    These people who think African immigration will be stopped by the politicians are just engaging in wishful thinking. Our state ideology is anti-racism and open borders. Blacks are the most idealized among us. Just look at any TV commercials today.

  107. @German_reader

    ‘…with all his endless and extremely tiresome references to his prophet or obscure Islamic scholars is as alien as that of a Martian to me, there is simply no common ground with somebody who thinks like that…’

    To be fair, presumably any decent Eastern Orthodox theologian could presumably give you an equally painful experience.

    And someday, I’ll have to regale you with the tale of the last time I went to an Evangelical Church.

    …to tell the awful truth, I feel about religions somewhat the same as I do about bears. They’re all well and good seen at a distance — but please. Not in the living room.

    More seriously, I’ve spent a fair amount of time in Muslim countries. The ol’ vino tends to be hard to come by, but otherwise, I can’t say they’ve been more or less objectionable than ‘Christian’ ones.

    …and the Quran really is easier going than the Old Testament. That’s not even close.

  108. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    and the Quran really is easier going than the Old Testament.

    I haven’t read the Quran, and only parts of the OT, but I find that difficult to believe. OT may have a lot of content which is appalling to modern sensibilities (e.g. God’s orders to annihilate certain peoples), but at least it features some interesting stories with relatable characters which have inspired great works of art. Whereas, if I understand correctly, the Quran doesn’t contain any conventional narrative at all, but is just a mind-numbing and quite repetitive collection of Surahs.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  109. @Talha

    Islam is largely, Sufis excepted, a religion of the ego. It casts humanity outside of grace and its adherents build their self-esteem around its success. It waylays souls into confusion and self-alienation. Families become abusive prisons and communities are strong, but only to enforce mutual misery.

    It also has little intellectual value, hence deserving the sobriquet “the stupidest religion”.

    For most Muslims, spirituality is alien and dogmatic egotism is everything.

    Pass on that whole edifice, thanks.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Talha
  110. @Sirius

    Please note that you can be white and Muslim at the same time. Amazingly, you can even be French and Muslim at the same time too.

    Please also note: this fact is very much to be lamented.

    “Freedom of religion” may well prove to be the very greatest of all liberal fuck-ups.

    Had liberals two hundred years ago only recognized the freedom to practice variants of Christianity or of a generalized “spirituality” and outright banned Islam we’d all be much better off today.

    • Replies: @Sirius
  111. @anonymous

    Yeah, the smartest are those who repudiate the Oneness of God (a simple enough logic which doesn’t depend on hearsay),

    The smartest are those who regard traditional conceptions of “God” as incoherent garbage and who either reject the whole idea and find better things to do with their time or who otherwise attempt to satisfy their spiritual cravings with a c0nception of a ‘supreme being’ that is less open to ridicule.

    And of course Islam is totally dependent on hearsay since there’s no proof that God exists or that Mohammed [foad] ever spoke to him.

  112. @fisher

    Intentionally paying someone to murder your own innocent helpless baby puts a person in a better position relative to God, goodness, and salvation than believing the tenets of Islam? That’s Christian love?

    Seems as morally confused and meanspirited as you would say Islam is.

    Your comment exemplifies the danger inherent in zealous nonrational belief when it comes with absolute confidence in that belief and intolerance toward those who do not share it. One of the more vicious and actually sad things I have read on here.

  113. @Sean

    The focus of your ire is the “bloody” Polish immigrants? I hadn’t seen them hacking up, beating, raping, threatening, intimidating, and working to subjugate white people and nonMuslims in the quote UK generally. It would seem to be nonwhite Muslims doing all of that to your people, no?

    I would be delighted to have millions of Poles or Russians settling in my country in place of the mestizo Latino dimwits and ruthless Chinese and Indians we are getting. And the Poles look even better to any SENSIBLE person when compared to the African, Paki, and Arab Muslims currently swarming and taking over your dying country.

    Wouldn’t it be wise to ally with the Poles — and any other European nonMuslims in the “UK” — to defend against and then expel or eliminate the aggressors?

    • Replies: @Sean
  114. @Colin Wright

    …and the Quran really is easier going than the Old Testament. That’s not even close.

    The reverse is so obviously true that only someone with jew-on-the-brain disease would bother disputing it.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  115. @German_reader

    ‘…Whereas, if I understand correctly, the Quran doesn’t contain any conventional narrative at all, but is just a mind-numbing and quite repetitive collection of Surahs.’

    As you note, you haven’t read it. I’d say it’s the Old Testament, cleaned up and made consistent, stripped of the ‘begats,’ and made practicable to follow.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  116. @Not Only Wrathful

    ‘Islam is largely, Sufis excepted, a religion of the ego. It casts humanity outside of grace and its adherents build their self-esteem around its success. It waylays souls into confusion and self-alienation. Families become abusive prisons and communities are strong, but only to enforce mutual misery.

    It also has little intellectual value, hence deserving the sobriquet “the stupidest religion”.

    For most Muslims, spirituality is alien and dogmatic egotism is everything.

    Pass on that whole edifice, thanks.’

    This is just idiotic bigotry that doesn’t survive even the most cursory consideration of the evidence.

    What’s the basis of your acquaintance with Islam?

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  117. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    cleaned up and made consistent

    I don’t know, is it really consistent? iirc there’s supposed to be a notable difference between the earlier Meccan surahs and the later Medinan surahs (more extreme), and Islamic scholars have come up with elaborate attempts (abrogation) to reconcile those contradictions.
    Not that I care overly much, Islam isn’t my tradition and has zero attraction to me, I only care about it in a “Know thine enemy” sense.

  118. Talha says:
    @Not Only Wrathful

    Thanks for your various opinions on Islam. As I said, I’m not trying to convince you otherwise. Obviously people who feel it is spiritually and intellectually fulfilling will conclude otherwise. I do personally agree that Sufi-oriented Islam seems to have a much bigger attraction to folks in the West historically than say, Salafi-Wahhabi type interpretations. For instance the German poet Goethe.

    Prof. David Cook of Rice Univ. (who researches radicalization trends in the Muslim world) mentioned the majority of converts go to the Sufis.

    Peace.

  119. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Poetry and cadence is fairly accessible, even to non-Arabic speakers, especially in the later chapters:

    I kid you not, I came across a British guy online who absolutely hated Islam and was very open about it, but loved to listen to the recitation of the Qur’an and was grateful that I had pointed him to some good reciters.

    Strange world. 🤷‍♂️

    Peace.

  120. @German_reader

    ‘I don’t know, is it really consistent?’

    Consistent as compared to what?

    The Old Testament?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  121. @silviosilver

    ‘The reverse is so obviously true that only someone with jew-on-the-brain disease would bother disputing it.’

    Either you’ve definitely never read the Quran, or you’ve definitely never (attempted to) read the Old Testament.

    Your statement’s simply silly. It’s like arguing Moby Dick is an easier read than Thunderball.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  122. I suppose being hostile to Muslims might have some foundation — although I submit that many here would do better to direct their rage at their governments that keep letting the Muslims in.

    But seeking to justify this hostility by reference to some objection to Islam in principle has a lot of shortcomings.

    First, it’s obvious many of the speakers are almost perfectly ignorant of Islam as a religion. This is just idiotic. It’s like me rejecting the theory of black holes — while refusing to read up on what a black hole is even supposed to be.

    Second, Muslims — like Christians — vary a lot. Turks bear almost no resemblance to Moroccans that I can see.

    It’s actually been my experience that Muslims, far from resembling other Muslims, tend to be remarkably similar to whatever groups they’re closest to — regardless of religion. Turks are like no one so much as they are like Greeks. Pakistan is like no place so much as it is like India. I strongly suspect Copts are a lot like Muslim Egyptians. Etc.

    Is it actually the Islam you mind — or just foreigners in general? That Egyptian Muslim family downstairs would be just fine if only they were Copts?

    Third, a lot of ‘Christian’ groups are just as reprehensible and alien to Western Europeans as Muslims. ________ and ________ come to mind (I’m really not going to get into gratuitously flaming various ‘Christian’ peoples that don’t fit well in Western Europe, whatever their virtues.)

    Fourth, I suspect the objections Western Europeans have to Muslims coming in and being pious Muslims would still apply if these were Christians coming in and being pious Christians. There would be fury if millions of devout Christians tried to enforce the closure of all businesses on Sundays, staged endless religious parades, demanded prayer in schools, banned abortion, attempted to prevent sex outside of marriage, etc, etc.

    It’s not Islam you object to. It’s institutionalized, assertive religion in any form. That’s fine; I’m actually with you — albeit with reservations.

    But call a spade a spade. Or rather, don’t claim it’s ‘Islam’ you hate. You avoid even finding out what it is. It’s strange immigrants and institutionalized religion you object to.

    That’s fine — but admit it.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  123. Sean says:
    @RadicalCenter

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/city-eye-facts-on-a-plate-our-population-is-at-least-77-million-5328454.html#:~:text=A%20major%2C%20non%2Dcommercial%20agricultural,everyone%20slithering%20off%20the%20record.

    BGC Partners, was talking of “one million Eastern Europeans unaccounted for in London” on television last week. I suspect he’s right if somewhat conservative in his estimate. How many do you see working in the construction industry and waiting at tables? And when I say “anti-inflationary”, I mean they are getting rotten wages. Dignified by the term “cheap labour”, the hidden hordes will do well for the services sector, among others.

    It is not an either or. Immigration from the EU has irreversibly altered the job and housing ,market against the interests of the people born in Britain. The EU basterds are staying in the UK because they like it, and they are on top of an ongoing inflow of nonwhites from all over the globe. The EU immigration did nothing to stop other immigration at all. The Poles ECT ECT are not just in the South East of England they’re everywhere in Britain, including many places where jobs are not at all plentiful, where they are in more direct competition with indigenous Brits than Pakis and Indians (and people from Tibet and South Sea islands who are in provincial UK but mainly earn their livings in restaurants and small shops ) Poles are used to keep down wages in manual trades. Post Brexit they have not been expelled. I can tell you their women are very keen on nonwhites and the census shows an amazing number of half caste babies are born to Polish mothers. The Romanians are in many cases as dark if not darker that many Pakistanis. The EU immigrants in Britain are a pawn in the elite’s power game. I have as much sympathy for them as they have for the British people whose washes they are keeping down. In many cases indigenous people simply cannot get work because employers prefer Poles .

  124. Sirius says:
    @Anonymous

    I’m so happy you raised the level of discourse (and anonymously to boot). “Couillons” – “as*holes” in French – sounds so classy!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  125. Anonymous[404] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Speaking of religion, as perverse as it might seem at first sight, the only ‘religious’ belief EU and European political leaders have is destroying the white race. They hate, hate, hate white people with a zeal and fervor that most cannot imagine.
    In that they are only obeying the precepts of *their* Holy Book – The Economist magazine.

    • Replies: @Talha
  126. Sirius says:
    @silviosilver

    Now, responding to this (and all the posters who think Islam is a malevolent force) really would require a book or at least a long essay, but let me try to be succinct.

    Western civilization is a product of Islamic civilization! Europe got out of its Dark Age backwardness almost solely because of the knowledge gained from its encounters with Islamic civilization for the 500 years between 1000 and 1500, when the Islamic world was at the forefront of human development, science and knowledge. Europeans used much of this knowledge to subjugate the world for much of the next 500 years. Why the Islamic world declined for much of the next half millennium is a subject for much study, but Islam paved the way for the European Renaissance.

    Look up Ibn al Haytham, Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Ibn Khaldun for starters to see the state of Islamic Sciences in the Golden Age of Islam, when Christian Science was practically and arguably still is, an oxymoron. Also look up how Greek philosophy was resurrected by Islamic philosophers while in the Christian world one could get executed for saying the world was flat or that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

    The failure of the West is to acknowledge that Islam is actually a Western religion itself and part of the European heritage, not some foreign force out to subvert the West. The forces that already subverted the Islamic world are not Islamic but a combination of Western subjugation and retrograde forces that claim to be Islamic but actually turn Islamic precepts upside down.

    And by the way, till today the most retrograde forces are supported by the West–just look at “Saudi” Arabia and the Wahhabis, ISIS and a host of so-called Muslims subverting Islam.

    • Thanks: silviosilver
  127. Anonymous[404] • Disclaimer says:

    All being said, I’d much rather live in world in which Islam reigns supreme and absolute, than in one in which neo con ‘western’ modern Economist magazine style ideology – that is the primacy of feminism, homosexuality and the *worship* of blacks and browns reigns supreme.

    If I had to take up arms and fight and chance my life for one side or the other, I would unflinchingly and unregretfully side with the Muslims.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  128. Anonymous[250] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    That wily old English sage, Aleister Crowley, had very little time for organised religion, but, when pressed, he expressed a preference for ‘Mohammedan’ dominance of the globe rather than christian dominance.

    “At least”, said Crowley, “It is a manly religion”.

    Which brings me to another point:
    The *SUPREME* religious or ideological precept held by today’s western elites – the one in which, in the final analysis, the will turn the globe into glass for with the unrestrained use of atomic weapons, is ‘equality’, most specifically ‘feminism’ and ‘sex equality’.

    What man, I have you – any man – worth his salt, would fight and die to defend a regime which has as its ultimate article of faith the ‘right’, nay obligation, of having a woman boss you about?

    *THIS*, dear readers, is what Armageddon will be all about.

  129. @Colin Wright

    10+ years living in a (super) majority Muslim country and in a majority Muslim school.

    • Replies: @Tommy Thompson
  130. Anonymous[953] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sirius

    Actually it means, literally, bollocks – a fine old English word if there ever was one. And which exactly and eloquently sums up your post.

    • Replies: @Sirius
  131. Anonymous[953] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sirius

    Quel connerie!!!!!

  132. @Not Only Wrathful

    #131

    Well you are +10 years and I am +20 years in Islamic countries. People in Muslim countries are really non-violent, well mannered and friendly to all. Much more so than in Western countries. They also tend to be modest, pious and generous to visitors.

    Almost none of the urban hooliganism that Europeans have grown accustomed in their cities and is rampant on weekends thanks to youthful binge drinkers..

    I donot see the same mannerisms in societies of Western countries. Despite the fake media imagery, Muslims are especially friendly to Christians and even to Jews. Westerners more rarely return this same kindness or even project these same manners with their own countrymen.

    Without doubt, Third Worlders and Muslims do have their major pitfalls, like being loud and pushy at times, street littering and bad driving, etc. The rape gangs and knife wielding is all orchestrated BS set up by police or intel agents that surely make use of lost dupes that can be found in any society. These are almost non-existent in Islamic countries that I am familiar with.

    You need to work harder with your anti-Muslim blog campaign, as it is working less effectively in keeping everyone distracted from their real problems and oppressors.

  133. @Sirius

    Dammit, I meant to press “LOL” not “thanks.”

  134. @Colin Wright

    You are talking about muslims as people, whereas I am criticizing Islam as an organized religion. Islam is incompatible with European identity and liberal values. “Muslims” – people unfortunate to have been born into that faith – may support European identity and adopt liberal values, but only to the extent that they’ve distanced themselves from Islam. It’s very unrealistic to expect most of them to accomplish this to a truly satisfactory level, although this is surely the hope implicit in the libtard embrace of them. For most, I suspect it would feel like too much of a “betrayal” to detach themselves from their ancestral faith (and cultural identity) to the requisite degree. And of course there’s no guarantee they won’t relapse into it even if they do detach. Ultimately, only an idiot could possibly pretend there’s anything to be gained inviting in masses of them and trusting that it will all work out well.

    Pious Christians acting as some muslims do would at least be cultural familiars. And we wouldn’t be afraid to forthrightly resist them. Not sure how this distinction escaped you, Colin. (My guess would be it’s jews-on-the-brain at work again.)

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  135. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    Consistent as compared to what?

    The Old Testament?

    The OT is a collection of texts written over many centuries by different authors (and in different genres, it even includes some love poetry after all), so obviously no, it isn’t consistent and shouldn’t be expected to be consistent.
    Whereas the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God dictated by an angel, so one would expect more consistency.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  136. @Colin Wright

    Of course I’ve never read the Koran cover to cover (and I bet you haven’t either, or even gotten half way). I gave up after about 20 or 30 pages. Bored me to tears. I flipped through to other portions in case it gets better, but it was the same old thing. Long passages of the OT are much like this too, but some of the stories are at least mildly interesting.

    But perhaps you could change my mind. Provide a link to what you think the Koran’s best moments are and I’ll give it another try.

  137. German_reader says:
    @Sirius

    Also look up how Greek philosophy was resurrected by Islamic philosophers while in the Christian world one could get executed for saying the world was flat or that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

    These are all myths (I very much doubt anybody in medieval Europe was ever executed because of flat-eartherism, even in the early 8th century an Anglo-Saxon author like Bede knew the earth was round) or half-truths at best. imo it’s bizarre to credit Islam with a “resurrection of Greek philosophy”, given how many Greek texts the Islamic invasions probably destroyed and how culturally devasting their impact ultimately was (Muslims had no interest in preserving the original texts and didn’t care at all about preserving Greek literature, historiography etc.).

    • Replies: @Sirius
    , @Colin Wright
  138. Lot says:
    @RadicalCenter

    The Bible has good and weak parts.

    The Koran is all garbage. Nobody reads it for pleasure, it is never alluded to in great literature, it’s just ranting and raving hallucinations of an angry illiterate pedo.

  139. @Talha

    “This is not borne out by the data. Islam is either gaining as many people as it loses or slightly more (world):”
    Do you know if France is following the same trend as the global average?

    • Replies: @Talha
  140. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    the only ‘religious’ belief EU and European political leaders have is destroying the white race.

    This may be the case, but I personally chalk it up to ineptitude of gargantuan proportions. Again, intelligence does not equate to wisdom.

    Do people like Macron and Merkel hate whites…I don’t know. I do know that they have certain values and that – tellingly – they, like some other European political elites – do not have children. This is significant because their policies will affect a world inherited by others’ children, not theirs.

    Which goes back to a point I made on a previous thread (of Mr. Durocher) and one I discussed with Dr. Shadee Elmasry, namely that…

    It is shocking how many of the major European philosophers, theorists whose writings basically built the modern world, had no family or children. Heavy hitters like Locke, Hobbes, Voltaire come to mind. Our current era is highly influenced by the abstract ideas of men that had no capability or interest in raising a family.

    If I recall correctly, Rosseau had multiple children with some woman and encouraged her to hand them over to others to take of. He seems to have had no interest in responsibility as a father.

    Dr. Elmasry mentioned; philosophers rarely ever present us with a live demonstration of their ideas, even at the family level. They tell us how to live, while their own lives were so often a big mess. Can somebody name a Western philosopher whose kids and neighbors wept over his grave and said, let us all return home and practice what he’s taught us?

    Should we be shocked that patriarchy is collapsing (if not collapsed) in the West (the first practitioners of these abstract ideas/theories) or that the institution of family is no longer associated with lineage or that populations are in terminal nosedive?

    Do with that information what you will.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Oliver D. Smith
  141. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tommy Thompson

    Well, for certain, ALL of the nastiness committed by ‘youth’ in London, England, is perpetrated by non whites of various hues and persuasions, if only for the reason that there is scarcely any blood English youth left in those parts.
    I suspect similar is true for all major western European cities.

    • Replies: @Tommy Thompson
  142. anonymous[325] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    They are also extremely cringe in relation to racial matters and invariably end up shilling for non-Europeans

    Even if us flawed muslims may not be entirely race/colour-blind, one fact which is inescapable is that race related supremacy/inferiority is completely antithetical to Islam.

    https://theconversation.com/islams-anti-racist-message-from-the-7th-century-still-resonates-today-141575

    If one is to truly follow in the footsteps of the beloved Prophet of Islam, s/he must necessarily reject feelings of racial superiority. That is probably why it appears that white reverts seem to try harder to be race/colour-blind, or in your words, “shilling” for the non-European “underdogs.” They simply wish to catch up fast on the prescribed Islamic way of life.

    Islam being an implicitly brown identity.

    By viewing Islam as “an implicitly brown identity,” whites in general reject true monotheism, the only comprehension of God which makes logical sense.

    Don’t whites take great pride in their “high IQ,” as well as exhibit an elevated perception of racial superiority (could be hardcore or a patronising softcore)? Your kind will find out soon enough that those perceived “virtues” are going to be most detrimental to the wellbeing of your souls.

    • Thanks: Sirius
  143. Talha says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Very good question; I wish I knew to be honest. Can we extrapolate from the US?

    Again, I wish somebody was tracking this stuff in France in particular. According to Pew, their best estimate is that around 160,000 people became Muslim and the same number left Islam between 2010-2016:

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/29/5-facts-about-the-muslim-population-in-europe/

    Which seems to be a bit along the lines of what is happening in the US; Islam loses about the same numbers as it gains.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  144. @Anonymous

    143

    having lived in London in the 80’s and much time in the 90 to 2010, would say that in the outskirts of London and in the northern big cities White Youth is still out in force on weekends. Probably better behaved than in the 60 and 70’s.

    I am not saying there are not youth gangs and street thugs originating from immigrants of Carib, Africa and Indian subcontinent within their new Euro urban settings.. Certainly plenty in their neighborhoods, but was saying that Muslims in general are non-violent.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  145. @silviosilver

    ‘…Pious Christians acting as some muslims do would at least be cultural familiars. And we wouldn’t be afraid to forthrightly resist them. Not sure how this distinction escaped you, Colin. (My guess would be it’s jews-on-the-brain at work again.)’

    Alright. But are Muslims actually doing much that Christians are not? There seems to be an element of paranoia here. No one objects to people wearing crosses and even nuns’ habits, but we get enormous furors over headscarves — ordinary wear among European peasant women within living memory.

    Bigotry and xenophobia are perfectly ordinary human sentiments. I’d even agree that while not especially attractive, they serve a purpose. Compare them to vomiting. Unedifying, but probably better than the alternative.

    But I object to the attempt to turn Islam — as a theological and social formula — into something radically better or worse than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, or Jainism. It’s not. In my experience, it tends to be kind of a wash. The various attractive and unattractive qualities seem to about balance out. Or close enough.

    I’m actually with you to the extent that Christianity is of course more interwoven with our culture; it’s a familiar devil, where Islam is not. And there are quirks and distinctions in how each plays out, both for better and for worse.

    However, that’s all somewhat beside the point. I wouldn’t want to live in a community where everyone was a fervent Christian anymore than I would want to live in one where everyone was a fervent Muslim. And I’m reasonably confident that the problem with these hordes of immigrants from far away that you’ve chosen to inundate yourselves with isn’t that they are Muslim rather than Christian so much as they are immigrants from far away.

    • Replies: @Sirius
    , @silviosilver
  146. @German_reader

    ‘The OT is a collection of texts written over many centuries by different authors (and in different genres, it even includes some love poetry after all), so obviously no, it isn’t consistent and shouldn’t be expected to be consistent.
    Whereas the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God dictated by an angel, so one would expect more consistency.’

    But you would agree that the Quran can hardly be criticized for being more inconsistent than the Old Testament? Whatever explanation you offer?

    Considering you admit you haven’t even read the Quran, I can only surmise that you are determined to reject Islam, and need to find some elevated rationale for doing so.

    Why? No one’s trying to make you convert. You can object to immigrants without regard to their religion. I don’t want more immigrants here. It does nothing at all for their case that here, they would be from predominantly Christian rather than Muslim societies.

    I just don’t want them. I don’t need to pretend their religious beliefs are unacceptable to do so.

    You might very well be a fellow Trump voter. You still can’t move into my house.

  147. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Which seems to be a bit along the lines of what is happening in the US; Islam loses about the same numbers as it gains.

    Again…the key here for future projections from this particular info is (given the European context); what kinds of “brown/black” people leave Islam and what demographic direction do they go and what kinds of “white” people enter Islam and what kind of demographic direction to they go?

    I welcome you do some digging into the subject. These are two very prominent young ex-Muslims, well-known in their circles:

    Here’s another very prominent guy who wrote the book, “The Atheist Muslim”:

    I would post something about the childless Maryam Namazie (head of the Council of ex-Muslims of Britain), but the kind of photographs she has been doing lately are…well, you look it up if interested – but I warned you.

  148. France is still growing in population-size without first/second generation Muslim immigrants.

    Population projections
    2020 67,658,000
    2030 70,396,000
    2040 72,767,000
    2050 74,297,000

    To blame only French Muslims for this is highly misleading. French Catholics are also part the problem – they have a considerably higher fertility rate (1.84) than French non-religious (1.36). See: https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol32/13/32-13.pdf France’s predominant faith has been Roman Catholicism since the early Middle Ages and about 60% of the current population is Catholic compared to only ~25% non-religious. The issue of unstainable population growth isn’t specifically an Islam problem but religion in general since religious people have higher fertility rates than the non-religious. Religion is a major obstacle in reducing fertility rates.

  149. Sirius says:
    @German_reader

    Why do you insist or assume that the Islamic conquerors destroyed any of the Greek texts? All the evidence, the Islamic Golden Age and the development of Islamic philosophy itself point to exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

    It’s time that Westerners stop seeing some false dichotomy between the West and the false East, which is not what the Islamic civilization was.

    Take the example of Syria, which was under Roman (or the invented term Byzantine) rule before the Islamic conquests. Because Greek and Syriac were languages of Syria of before Arabic became dominant, these languages were taught extensively so that the Greek texts could be read.

    Al-Kindi (801-873) promoted Greek and Hellenistic philosophy throughout the Islamic world. Do you imagine he couldn’t find any Greek texts because they were all destroyed. On the contrary, they were meticulously preserved and translated into Arabic.

    Al-Kindi wrote a treatise specifically dealing with Aristotle, Fi kammiya kutub Aristutalis wa ma yahtaj ilahi fi tahsil al-falsafa (The Quantity of the Books of Aristotle and What is Required for the Acquisition of Philosophy).

    Al-Farabi continued the collection of Plato’s and Aristotle’s works and developed it further, becoming known as the second master of philosophy, the first being Aristotle. Where do you suppose he got hold of Aristotle’s works?

    Should I continue? I can’t write a book here. Or just read this article and get a better idea:

    http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H002

    • Replies: @Talha
  150. @Lot

    ‘….The Koran is all garbage. Nobody reads it for pleasure, it is never alluded to in great literature, it’s just ranting and raving hallucinations of an angry illiterate pedo.’

    We’re impressed by your erudition, Lot. But did you read the Quran in the original Arabic, or in translation?

    In passing, I’m curious as to the source of your animus. Why is it so necessary to you to abuse the Quran? There are various Christian texts I don’t think much of — but I don’t feel compelled to vilify them.

  151. @Tommy Thompson

    ‘I am not saying there are not youth gangs and street thugs originating from immigrants of Carib, Africa and Indian subcontinent within their new Euro urban settings.. Certainly plenty in their neighborhoods, but was saying that Muslims in general are non-violent.’

    For what it’s worth, I remember working out the statistics on some recent London riot (was it the last one?) when a member of the orthodoxy tried to claim it wasn’t racial.

    Blacks — of course — were wildly overrepresented among the perpetrators. Whites were usually victims — but sometimes perpetrators. Asians were almost entirely victims.

    Not that I’m into Rotherham denial — but the above is what I ascertained when it came to a riot.

    • Thanks: Tommy Thompson
    • Replies: @Talha
  152. Sirius says:
    @Colin Wright

    Fair enough. But I would hope that you and anyone else with similar views vehemently oppose any policies that destroy their homelands, which is what has been happening for some time now.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  153. Sirius says:
    @Anonymous

    Wow what a compelling argument! How can anyone argue with that? Maybe you should try a less superficial approach some time.

  154. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Not that I’m into Rotherham denial

    Nor should you be. Young predatory males should be rounded up at punished harshly as a deterrent to others.

    Speaking of young foreign males acting like thuggz among a local native population:

    Peace.

  155. @Tommy Thompson

    Their violence is mostly behind close doors and in the family. You are obviously too socially incompetent and disliked to be allowed into trust. Poor you.

    • Replies: @Tommy Thompson
  156. Talha says:
    @Sirius

    People who consider Islam and Muslims their enemy will exaggerate the historical record just as those who consider whites or Europeans their enemies love piling on exaggerated or imagined historical crimes upon them.

    Anyone who has studied the history of the early Islamic conquests from academic sources knows this not to be the case. As Prof. Sandra Keating mentioned in her book that chronicles the shift from the Greek paradigm to the Arabic in that region in the time frame:
    “Initially the Arab conquerors essentially left the existing bureaucratic and legal structures they encountered in place, insisting only that their subjects pay taxes and refrain from slandering Muhammad or their religion.”

    It wasn’t even until some time under the Abbassids that the language of administration even switched over to Arabic fro Greek and Persian. The entire state apparatus was dependent on Greek and Persian writing and records and non-Muslims to help run the whole thing; the Muslim Arabs were completely unprepared to run – on their own – the massive imperial heritage that they had acquired in such a short amount of time.

    This assumption that Muslims went about willy-nilly burning down cities is without foundation (by the late Patricia Crone, an expert in contemporaneous non-Muslim accounts):
    “What Donner turns out to mean is simply the well-known fact that the Muslims did not engage in systematic destruction of towns, churches, and other religious buildings, and that they were not out to impose their religion by force…No scholar believes that the Muslim conquerors were out to impose their religion by force; even going back a century or more I cannot think of any who has espoused this view…If all Donner means to affirm is that the Muslim conquests were relatively swift and surgical operations that left urban life, religious communities, and complex organization intact, then he is simply affirming the conventional view…The Muslims did not engage in systematic destruction of towns or religious buildings, regardless of whether they were monotheist, Zoroastrian, or (in Harran) pagan.
    http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/42023/among-the-believers

    Rather this is a projection of how war was generally engaged in by the empires of Late Antiquity in the region – the various instances of Greco-Persian wars where burning down the capital city of the defeated was the norm (see for instance what Alexander did to Persepolis or what the Persians had done in their conquests of the various Greek city-states):
    “For the majority of seventh-century Syriac Christians, the most involved geoploitical changes came not with the Islamic Conquests of the 630s but from the Byzantine-Persian wars from 602 to 628, which were much more destructive than the Islamic conquests. With a few notable exceptions, during the Islamic conquests the majority of sustained military engagements took place in the countryside, minimizing civilian casualties. Most cities capitlulated to Arab forces without prolonged siege. Material evidence of the Islamic conquests is minimal, and the conquests did not leave the type of destruction layers associated with much more devastating invasions. Instead, inscriptional evidence witnessed continual church occupation and even new construction throughout the period.”
    Envisioning Islam: Syriac Christians and the Early Muslim World

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Tommy Thompson
    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  157. ‘Their violence is mostly behind close doors and in the family. You are obviously too socially incompetent and disliked to be allowed into trust. Poor you.’

    As opposed to you — or so you imply.

    Would this be anything like Black Like Me? Tell us about your undercover investigations, Not. Give us the real low down. What really goes on — when they think no one is looking?

  158. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:

    There is an interesting story that Iblis refused to bow down before Adam – the first man – when commanded to by the Almighty because Iblis claimed superiority, being a spiritual being, over mortal Adam, who we are told, was composed of clay.
    This the emnity between Iblis and man, and the Almighty.

    Clearly, today’s analogy is of white men being forced – by their political masters – to prostrate and abase themselves to blacks, browns and women.

  159. @German_reader

    ‘…imo it’s bizarre to credit Islam with a “resurrection of Greek philosophy”, given how many Greek texts the Islamic invasions probably destroyed and how culturally devasting their impact ultimately was (Muslims had no interest in preserving the original texts and didn’t care at all about preserving Greek literature, historiography etc.).’

    My impression is the opposite. When Christendom rose out of the Dark Ages into what has been christened ‘the Twelfth Century Renaissance,’ it was to Muslim sources that they turned for most of what remained of the classical heritage.

    For example, Averroes and Avicenna; these were Muslims, and it was they who transmitted an awareness and understanding of Aristotelian philosophy to the Christian West. It’s not like Hengist and Horsa had carefully and lovingly preserved whatever Greek texts turned up in their booty, to pass on to future generations.

    I will insist; why do you feel compelled to transmute a perfectly reasonable if not especially elevated objection to alien immigrants into a principled objection to a religion you yourself admit you know nothing about? The one is perhaps nothing to boast of; but it is perfectly reasonable and based in fact. The other would be laudable — except it seems to owe nothing to reality.

    If I want to take a leak, I go to the bathroom and take a leak. That’s not especially praiseworthy, but it is the truth, and there’s nothing wrong with it. I don’t falsely claim I’ve been suddenly seized with a desire to inspect the paint scheme, and think of possible changes.

    You don’t seem to be able to advance any convincing objection to Islam — not surprisingly. It’s a major religion, and in general outline and effect, remarkably like the others.

    Happily, you don’t need to. I assume what you really object to is not the religion Muslims practice, but the fact that they’re moving to your country. Fine: so object to the actual problem. There’s no reason to substitute an indefensible position for a perfectly defensible one.

    • Replies: @Talha
  160. @Sirius

    ‘Fair enough. But I would hope that you and anyone else with similar views vehemently oppose any policies that destroy their homelands, which is what has been happening for some time now.’

    Oh, I do oppose such policies. No more immigrants at all, ever, from anywhere.

  161. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tommy Thompson

    Nice try, buddy.

    One thing for sure, you might talk the talk but you won’t walk the walk. Oh no, definitely not.
    Moving to Karachi, Cairo, Baghdad, Kabul, Dhaka etc would be your very worst nightmare. I mean just *WHAT* is it that makes the prospect of returning to one’s ancestral native homeland, the bosom of your family, amongst cherished kith and kin, culture, religion etc etc SO frightening and terrifying for the darkie invaders of Europe?
    Why do they kick, scream, shout, punch, struggle, fight, protest SO hard at the merest hint of returning to the cherished bosom of the ummah, the womb that nurtured them?
    Why do they even go as far – as many an Iranian or Afghani has – as apostasy and embracing Christ in the desperate struggle to reject their home and people? What frightens them about their own people so much?

  162. @Talha

    Not sure what planet you are on.

    What populations are in ‘terminal nosedive’?

    We add 80 million people each year globally (= 227,000 everyday) and almost every country world-wide (including France) has population-growth.

    • Replies: @Talha
  163. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    If I want to take a leak, I go to the bathroom and take a leak. That’s not especially praiseworthy, but it is the truth, and there’s nothing wrong with it. I don’t falsely claim I’ve been suddenly seized with a desire to inspect the paint scheme, and think of possible changes.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
  164. German_reader says:
    @Talha

    This assumption that Muslims went about willy-nilly burning down cities is without foundation

    I didn’t write that, so spare me the idiotic strawman. What is incontrovertibly true however is that the Islamic conquests and the resulting Arabization/Islamization eventually led to the disappearance of Hellenic civilization from huge areas where it had previously flourished and massively decreased the chances for survival of ancient Greek texts. That Muslim conquerors initially made use of Greek-speaking administrators (for purely pragmatic reasons, as you yourself admit they were replaced when a suitable Islamic elite had emerged) is irrelevant in this regard.
    It’s really tiresome that even on the blog of a philhellene French identitarian one isn’t spared the usual pro-Islamic propaganda.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Talha
    , @Colin Wright
  165. Talha says:
    @Oliver D. Smith

    What populations are in ‘terminal nosedive’?

    Pleanty, but – as a general rule – Europeans (the native guys) mostly. You know, the ones at ground zero for the theories by those same philosophers I cited. And East Asians who have adopted a lot of those theories as well. We also have some outliers here and there too, like a few of the very rich Gulf Arab states.

    and almost every country world-wide (including France) has population-growth.

    Ummmm…:
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Oliver D. Smith
  166. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    the Islamic conquests and the resulting Arabization/Islamization eventually led to the disappearance of Hellenic civilization from huge areas where it had previously flourished

    Correct. CONQUERED and flourished. You think the natives there were simply administering themselves in Greek before the Greek armies showed up? That is what happens when you conquer; you replace the older order.

    The Greeks were far more open to burning down and destroying the previous empire’s records and national treasures…as were the Persians. This was par for the course in that period. Annihilation of the defeated culture’s monuments and heritage was considered a positive thing.

    massively decreased the chances for survival of ancient Greek texts.

    That’s up to the Greeks to preserve their own heritage in their own language. The only thing that could be expected from Muslims is not a systematic policy of destruction – of which there was none.

    If anything, much of the actual preserved Greek texts (in Greek) that were in various Muslim libraries as part of translation efforts were burned down by those like the Mongols, so I’ll admit the Muslims were certainly at fault for not putting up a stronger resistance in the Persianate lands.

    It’s really tiresome that even on the blog of a philhellene French identitarian one isn’t spared the usual pro-Islamic propaganda.

    There is no propaganda. I am citing academic sources from people who are world-renowned experts in their field (and I’ve got plenty more where those came from). You seem to be offering your feelz on various topics that you haven’t read much about as a kind of cope. The difference in approach is plain to see.

    I’m not in Germany am I? So if you don’t like me on this particular blog, leave. Or ask the owner of this blog or Mr. Unz to ban me if you feel you’re entitled to some safe space around here. If either ask me to leave, I will do so without resistance. You want a safespace – I suggest Mr. Karlin’s or Fred Reed’s blog, I don’t show up there anymore.

    Peace.

  167. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    I didn’t write that, so spare me the idiotic strawman.

    Acknowledged. If that was not your intent, I apologize putting words in your mouth that you did not intend.

    Peace.

  168. @German_reader

    ‘I didn’t write that, so spare me the idiotic strawman. What is incontrovertibly true however is that the Islamic conquests and the resulting Arabization/Islamization eventually led to the disappearance of Hellenic civilization from huge areas where it had previously flourished…’

    Oh you do not know what you are talking about.

    By the time the Arab conquests happened, the Vandals had already sacked Rome and conquered North Africa, Spain and France had been lost to all semblance of civilization, Slavs had poured into the Balkans, even replacing the population of the Peloponnese, Italy was a howling wasteland and Rome had a population one twentieth of what it had been, wolves roamed within the walls of Paris, etc, etc.

    Hellenic civilization had disappeared. If anything, the Arabs preserved what was left of it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  169. @Talha

    Pleanty, but – as a general rule – Europeans (the native guys) mostly. You know, the ones at ground zero for the theories by those same philosophers I cited. And East Asians who have adopted a lot of those theories as well. We also have some outliers here and there too, like a few of the very rich Gulf Arab states.

    Ummmm…:
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html

    Virtually all those countries have population-growth.

    The fact a country has a low TFR doesn’t translate to population decline because of increased longevity (people are living on average longer) and also population momentum. So even if you look at the countries with lowest total fertility rates in the world – nearly all of them have more annual births than deaths (hence natural population growth). For example, take South Korea which appears near bottom of that list with a total fertility rate of 1.26 –

    According to Worldometers’ South Korea Population Forecast statistics, South Korea is supposed to have a 0.36% yearly change increase by 2020, a 0.28% yearly change increase by 2025, a 0.18% yearly change increase by 52,701,817, and a 0.04% yearly change increase by 2035.

    South Korea currently has a population growth rate of 0.4% and will continue to have population growth for many decades even though their TFR is 1.26. Note the growth rate will likely increase considering the life expectancy keeps going up.

    South Korean woman on average are expected to live live to 90 (!) by 2030
    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/south-korean-women-life-expectancy-kimchi/

    The same study found France, Japan, Australia, Canada, Chile and the UK are all likely to see women’s average life expectancy pass 85 by 2030. The only way to actually shrink these populations is to continue to decrease fertility rates more and more well under 1.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Colin Wright
  170. German_reader says:
    @Talha

    So if you don’t like me on this particular blog, leave.

    Why the heck should I leave, I think I’m rather closer to Mr Durocher’s intended audience (identitarian Europeans who would like to remove Muslims from their countries) than some overly verbose Paki in Chicago who’s constantly shilling for his stupid religion and cluttering up threads with his triumphalist “We Muslims are so wonderful and outbreeding you weak degenerates, haha” nonsense. I certainly would welcome it if Mr Durocher would outright ban you from commenting here, but like most white right-wingers, he’s unfortunately probably too tolerant and fair-minded for that.

    • Agree: silviosilver
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Colin Wright
  171. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    If anything, the Arabs preserved what was left of it.

    By conquering the Near East and forcing what remained of the Byzantine empire into a life and death struggle with sieges of Constantinople etc.? In what universe is that supposed to make sense?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  172. Talha says:
    @Oliver D. Smith

    The fact a country has a low TFR doesn’t translate to population decline because of increased longevity

    It just prolongs the inevitable in a slow burn…
    “A population with longer lifespan means there are more older people around, and women having fewer children means there aren’t enough young people to replace them when they die. Eventually, this paradox means that South Korea’s population will begin to decline. The UN predicts South Korea’s population will peak in around 2024, and then start to fall. By 2100, the UN forecasts South Korea’s population will be only around 29 million – the same as it was in 1966.”
    https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20191010-south-koreas-population-paradox

    Peace.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Oliver D. Smith
  173. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    cluttering up threads with his

    …citations of academic works, statistics, graphs and other data.

    Not all of us thrive on feelz discourse, but – hey – horseshoe theory.

    I certainly would welcome it if Mr Durocher would outright ban you from commenting here, but like most white right-wingers, he’s unfortunately probably too tolerant and fair-minded for that.

    Then cope.

    I also don’t comment on Sailer’s or Mercer’s threads; I have provided you a safe space there as well as you seem to be unable to find the “ignore” button.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  174. German_reader says:
    @Talha

    citations of academic works, statistics, graphs and other data.

    Anecdotes about the convert “brothers” and “sisters” in the mosque you’re frequenting are rather more prominent, you certainly haven’t brought up any compelling evidence that the increase in the number of Muslims in France is in any way driven by native Frenchmen converting en masse to Islam. Your global statistics are irrelevant (in countries like Pakistan where Islam is the dominant state religion there’s of course intense pressure on remaining minorities to convert, this has no bearing on the situation in Western Europe). Which means your contributions in this thread are just the usual derailing, so you can once again sing the praises of Islam.

    • Replies: @Talha
  175. @German_reader

    ‘By conquering the Near East and forcing what remained of the Byzantine empire into a life and death struggle with sieges of Constantinople etc.? In what universe is that supposed to make sense?’

    You referred to Hellenic civilization. ‘Hellenic civilization’ is generally used to describe what preceded Rome — that is to say, it ceased to be an appropriate description of anything sometime around 100 B.C. The Arabs came along 700-800 years later — to say the least, a lot of water had flowed under the bridge by then. However you want to describe the Levant, Egypt, North Africa, Visigothic Spain, ‘Hellenic’ ain’t the word you want.

    You might as well blame the Soviet Army of 1945 for the depredations of the Mongols in their invasions of Hungary in the Thirteenth century.

    The Arab conquests had nothing to do with the end of any Hellenic world. The Arabs did preserve and transmit a great deal of Greek learning onward to the Medieval Christian West — but that’s another matter entirely.

    Otherwise, the Byzantine Empire was eternally involved in ‘life and death’ struggles. If it wasn’t the Arabs, it was the Persians, and if it wasn’t the Persians, it was the Bulgars, and if it wasn’t the Bulgars it was the Normans, and if it wasn’t the Normans, it was the Turks, and if it wasn’t the Turks, it was the ‘Franks.’

    It’s not like everything was all peace and quiet and scholars strolling in the placid groves — and then those beastly Arabs showed up. No, the strife was constant. In fact, if there wasn’t an external enemy, the Byzantines would usually dream up some doctrinal dispute to slaughter each other over. Or they’d just smash shit for no apparent reason — witness the ‘Nika’ riots. The Byzantines were quite capable of burning down whole cities and destroying half their cultural heritage on their own; they didn’t need external help with that. See the Iconoclasts.

    The Arabs didn’t wreck anything at all. They certainly changed things — but that’s another matter.

  176. @German_reader

    ‘…he’s unfortunately probably too tolerant and fair-minded for that…’

    That would be a vice you don’t seem to share.

    I distinctly recall you being sane in other connections. What’s with you and Muslims? Why did you let so many in? I could have told you this would happen if you did.

    European states are monoethnic, monocultural entities — quite incapable of absorbing and assimilating large numbers of aliens.

    They shouldn’t try, either. We can see the results.

    But don’t blame others for your own foolishness.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  177. @Oliver D. Smith

    ‘The same study found France, Japan, Australia, Canada, Chile and the UK are all likely to see women’s average life expectancy pass 85 by 2030. The only way to actually shrink these populations is to continue to decrease fertility rates more and more well under 1.’

    That’s an impressively bad idea. In fact, as Talha points out, increasing longevity will only temporarily slow population decline; if the average woman has fewer than two children, the population will eventually decline unless people start literally living forever. That’s pretty hard to dispute — or should be.

    Now, given that, all these oldsters are going to need young uns to mow the lawns and change the bed pans and bring up boxes from the basement. In fact, I suspect that’s one thing driving all this immigration — the simple fact that there are places. It’d be a different story if there were one hundred young locals who weren’t about to let any foreigners change those bedpans.

    So — unless you really do want a never-ending tide of blacks and Muslims — I suggest you slow the decline in your birthrate.

    You should be able to gently subside, but I would shoot for about 1.8 — not ‘well under 1.’ That’s a recipe for ‘send us more Senegalese — please!’

    Stop immigration, start measures to encourage fertility. Wake me up when your birthrate’s recovered to about 1.8 children per woman — and don’t cook up reasons why you just can’t. That’s bullshit.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Oliver D. Smith
  178. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    you certainly haven’t brought up any compelling evidence that the increase in the number of Muslims in France is in any way driven by native Frenchmen converting en masse to Islam.

    Correct – there is absolutely no solid evidence for this kind of a claim. Please tell me where I claimed native Frenchmen were converting en masse. I specifically stated:
    “I really wish the French were willing to keep better statistics on these matters so that we would have a better idea of what is going on because speculation on these matters is interesting, but seeing real trends would be much more helpful in determining whether we witnessing an ethnic replacement or a the beginnings of a religious shift.”

    I cited a graph (from Pew) that showed that – across Europe (France included) – that converts are about the same as the number of Muslims leaving the religion. And I started my comments by mentioning that using an Arabic first name as an identifier is not an accurate metric, for the reasons I outlined.

    Which means your contributions in this thread are just the usual derailing, so you can once again sing the praises of Islam.

    People seem to be engaging with me in a civil and mature manner (some even challenging me) and actually asking questions about relevant data and I am responding to them, so – no – this is more “muh feelz” from you.

    Peace.

  179. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    What’s with you and Muslims? Why did you let so many in?

    I’m not the German government (either of 1960 when the first Turkish “guest workers” came to Germany, partly due to American pressure, or of 2015) and have consistently voted for the right-wing anti-immigration AfD since 2013, so writing to me as if I personally was responsible for Muslim immigration is rather silly.
    And yeah, I would say a misguided sense of tolerance and fair play is certainly a vice given the desperate situation European right-wingers are in. At the very least we need to create spaces where we set the tone and where discussions aren’t derailed by hostile interlopers like Talha (who doesn’t even pretend that he’s some sort of “liberal Muslim”, he’s quite open that his goal is Islamization of Western societes, then making any reversal impossible by the usual Islamic legislation against “blasphemy”, “apostasy” etc. He’s exploiting a liberal system he doesn’t even believe in himself).

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  180. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    European states are monoethnic, monocultural entities — quite incapable of absorbing and assimilating large numbers of aliens.

    You can say that again – and, frankly, to achieve the first part of that sentence, there was no shortage of thousands from various European populations exterminated or forcibly relocated on that continent to achieve that goal.

    You would have thought that they would have remembered the lessons from WW2 which is still within living memory.

    Peace.

  181. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    ‘Hellenic civilization’ is generally used to describe what preceded Rome — that is to say, it ceased to be an appropriate description of anything sometime around 100 B.C.

    imo that’s wrong, Hellenism is usually considered to have lasted well into the Roman empire. And sure, by the early 7th century there had already been grave blows to the ancient city-culture, and Christianity had also introduced a certain tension (“Hellene” was a negative term for pagans after all), but this didn’t preclude a certain Christian humanism which made use of the classical heritage (as promoted by Basil of Caesarea in the 4th century). Arabization and Islamization definitely introduced a break here, the Muslims appropriated certain elements of classical culture (in translated form, they had no interest in the original texts and their preservation), but on the whole replaced it with something very different.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  182. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    That’s an impressively bad idea….Now, given that, all these oldsters are going to need young uns to mow the lawns and change the bed pans and bring up boxes from the basement.

    Or will we start seeing more trends where old people are committing crimes to get into jail in order to be taken care of and have a sense of community:“Expenses associated with elder care helped push annual medical costs at correctional facilities past 6 billion yen (more than $50 million) in 2015, an 80 percent increase from a decade before. Specialized workers have been hired to help older inmates with bathing and toileting during the day, but at night these tasks are handled by guards.”
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-prisons-are-a-haven-for-elderly-women

    I think many of these outcomes have to be the results of policies designed by people that have one or no children and who think in abstract, theoretical terms when it comes to these things. At what point do these “specialized workers” also get too old and have to be replaced with robots or Indonesians or Thais or Senegalese?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  183. @German_reader

    ‘…At the very least we need to create spaces where we set the tone and where discussions aren’t derailed by hostile interlopers like Talha (who doesn’t even pretend that he’s some sort of “liberal Muslim”, he’s quite open that his goal is Islamization of Western societes, then making any reversal impossible by the usual Islamic legislation against “blasphemy”, “apostasy” etc. He’s exploiting a liberal system he doesn’t even believe in himself).’

    This description of Talha bears no discernible connection to reality.

    ‘…he’s quite open that his goal is Islamization of Western societes, then making any reversal impossible by the usual Islamic legislation against “blasphemy”, “apostasy” etc…’

    Where do you get that from? Since he’s ‘quite open’ about it, you should be able to furnish us with some specific quotes.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  184. @Talha

    ‘…Or will we start seeing more trends where old people are committing crimes to get into jail in order to be taken care of and have a sense of community…’

    Well, Japanese are bonkers. I like them, but they are one of the few peoples I’ve encountered who can genuinely mystify me.

    So what they do and what we’ll do may turn out to be two very different things.

    However, it all is going to be a problem. One aspect of it all is that the fashion for ever-larger homes with ever-larger yards at ever-greater distances from all facilities runs directly counter to an old person’s declining ability to mow lawns, change light bulbs, run down to the grocery store, etc.

    …so they wind up getting packed off to the old folks home when maybe they could have handled an apartment with an on-site manager and a grocery store across the street. A communal kitchen might be a real good idea too.

    …somewhat irrelevantly, one science fiction short story I read was set in the near future. This old guy gets a ‘robot.’ He starts to get suspicious when he notices the ‘robot’ gazing wistfully out the window. Eventually, it transpires the ‘robot’ is actually controlled by some Mexican girl working for five dollars a day in an office in Monterrey.

    Things are going to change. What people need to do is face that, and decide how they want them to change. Deciding the ‘the problem is Islam’ is — to say the least — not helpful. You want Congolese, better? What do you want?

    Decide, then start actually making it happen. If you don’t want immigrants, fine. Don’t let them in. But don’t let them in and then start hating them. That’s really not going to make a better world.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Anonymous
  185. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/pakistans-population-converges-on-brazils/#comment-1988559

    Again, because the Hanafi school is more open than the other schools as to how to apply discretionary punishment on the matter, I wouldn’t do something like that right away. The punishment should be deterrent, but I’d rather see it on some kind of a increasing level of punishment based on numbers of infractions; first time = public flogging or short imprisonment (that will be enough to deter most people), second time = longer imprisonment, third = life imprisonment, exile (non-Muslim nations can line up to take them if they want), etc.

    and:
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/pakistans-population-converges-on-brazils/#comment-1988915

    When one asks him if such punishments will be introduced once the US and Europe have become Islamic (something he’s certain will happen, since it’s in Allah’s plan or whatever), he always gets vague (“That will be up to American and European Muslims to decide then”), but his ideal is clearly an Islamic state with strong punishments against “blasphemy” and “apostasy”.
    Anyway, just ask him yourself, or look through his one and a half million words posted here, I’m not going to look for more quotes, have already spent too much time on this thread.

  186. @German_reader

    ‘imo that’s wrong, Hellenism is usually considered to have lasted well into the Roman empire. And sure, by the early 7th century there had already been grave blows to the ancient city-culture, and Christianity had also introduced a certain tension (“Hellene” was a negative term for pagans after all), but this didn’t preclude a certain Christian humanism which made use of the classical heritage (as promoted by Basil of Caesarea in the 4th century). Arabization and Islamization definitely introduced a break here, the Muslims appropriated certain elements of classical culture (in translated form, they had no interest in the original texts and their preservation), but on the whole replaced it with something very different.’

    Different? Sure. But worse?

    I think you need to survey the condition of the lands in question at the start of the seventh century.

    In fact, that’s one reason the Arabs were able to make such sweeping, relatively bloodless conquests.

    It’s not like their victims had all that much to lose.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  187. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Well, I’ve been quite open that I’m here to help invite people to Islam and that other Muslims should also be inviting people to Islam. Guilty as charged. And will continue to do so until some law comes to pass that interdicts this, in which case Muslims in Western countries should comply and no longer call people to the faith.

    On the contrary…if, after however many centuries, the native populations in these countries is Muslim, they have the right to institute whatever laws they see fit. I don’t see why that’s such a problem for people; majority populations already decide things as “will of the people”. If they kick out all the Muslims and burn down mosques, it will be the “will of the people”.

    And yes, I have been on the record that; if there was a overwhelming Muslim majority in a Western country, I would personally have no problems with instituting a law against blasphemy. Not anything like execution and such; the school I follow is fairly flexible on the issue – financial penalties will do the job just fine, imprisonment for repeat offenders, etc. I expect Muslims as a minority to obey the law of the land – thus they cannot go stab-happy on cartoonists – and I expect non-Muslim minorities to obey the law of the land if the rules change.

    I honestly don’t think the right for “muh apostasy” is very high on many people’s minds as a human right if other things are going well. As I pointed out, an increasing number of French people are retiring in a place like Morocco despite the fact that they don’t have the right to draw certain types of cartoons about religious figures there. You, yourself, traveled the Muslim world where you would have been arrested had you said something vile about the Prophet (pbuh) publicly…did you feel “oppressed” or that life had no more meaning?

    And no I don’t “believe in the liberal system”…frankly, I think it is a detriment to practically any population that implements it because of its epistemic and foundational incoherence will eventually works its way out. For instance, if you watch the clip I posted about the two ex-Muslims…you come to ask; just how long can a system or framework last that has no answer (based on core principles) for why two blood brothers shouldn’t be able to gay-marry and sodomize each other if they feel it makes them whole – are you against freedom, love, people pursuing their dreams and enriching their lives?

    Just clearing the record.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Sirius
  188. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    I like them, but they are one of the few peoples I’ve encountered who can genuinely mystify me.

    OK – yes – I’ll give you that. Extremely intelligent population that produces high-tech gizmos and very orderly people…who happen to participate in fertility rituals with giant phalluses while STILL not actually having many kids:

    one science fiction short story I read was set in the near future. This old guy gets a ‘robot.’ He starts to get suspicious when he notices the ‘robot’ gazing wistfully out the window. Eventually, it transpires the ‘robot’ is actually controlled by some Mexican girl working for five dollars a day in an office in Monterrey.

    Sounds like Bradbury, but I don’t recall that one.

    What do you want? Decide, then start actually making it happen.

    Bam!

    Peace.

  189. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    It’s not like their victims had all that much to lose.

    In the long run they (or rather their descendants) lost everything, but of course that wasn’t apparent at the time, just as it isn’t apparent today for most Western normies.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @songbird
  190. @Talha

    I get those projections (although I think the UN projection is slightly wrong – population growth will likely continue into the 2030s as predicted by the Worldometers’ South Korea Population Forecast and if you take into consideration average life-expectancy is increasing – population growth could go on into the 2040s until there is a decline).

    My point is since South Korea’s population is still rising and will for years/decades to come – the only way to see a reduction right now is to massively reduce the fertility rate. The TFR data you linked was a few years old – it has since dropped to 0.92 based on the most recent (2019) data, but even this reduction in fertility is not enough to see a population decline. http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20200826000726

    At 0.92 TFR — South Korea’s population is still increasing by natural growth. There were more births than deaths last year. The only way to see an immediate end to population growth is a sharp decrease in fertility — South Korea needs to drop under 0.50 TFR.

    • Replies: @Talha
  191. @Colin Wright

    That’s an impressively bad idea. In fact, as Talha points out, increasing longevity will only temporarily slow population decline; if the average woman has fewer than two children, the population will eventually decline unless people start literally living forever. That’s pretty hard to dispute — or should be.

    I don’t want to temporarily slow population decline but speed it up. Virtually every country in the world is overpopulated and is causing massive environmental degradation. South Korea has a high per capita carbon footprint – the less people born there the most immediate positive impact on the environment and climate-change – same as the Western world.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  192. @Talha

    I suggest Mr. Karlin’s or Fred Reed’s blog, I don’t show up there anymore.

    Karlin is a scientific illiterate and climate-change denialist crackpot.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anatoly_Karlin#Global-warming_denial

    • Replies: @Talha
  193. Talha says:
    @Oliver D. Smith

    Bro…your argument is like saying; the plane isn’t actually in a dive because all the old people jumped out and haven’t hit the ground yet so we can’t count them – and have to say the plane is in a glide.

    Think this one through.

    Peace.

  194. Talha says:
    @Oliver D. Smith

    OK – possibly…but that doesn’t change the fact that his blog is a Talha-free zone.

    I don’t want to temporarily slow population decline but speed it up.

    Ah OK…well then – FULL SPEED AHEAD! Europe and East Asia are doing fantastic at setting a trend. You go Singapore!

    Peace.

  195. @German_reader

    ‘In the long run they (or rather their descendants) lost everything, but of course that wasn’t apparent at the time, just as it isn’t apparent today for most Western normies.’

    That’s very questionable. The lands that turned out to be the heart of Western Civilization weren’t anywheres near the Muslim conquests.

    And Spain would have really been better off with continued Visigothic rule than it was under Islam? Seriously?

    But this really is deviating away from the main point. Why the animus towards Islam? Do you have similarly strong feelings when it comes to Buddhism?

    How about Druids?

    Allow me to patronize you. Your issue is with immigrants. So who lets the immigrants in?

    Take it up with them.

  196. @Oliver D. Smith

    ‘I don’t want to temporarily slow population decline but speed it up. Virtually every country in the world is overpopulated and is causing massive environmental degradation. South Korea has a high per capita carbon footprint – the less people born there the most immediate positive impact on the environment and climate-change – same as the Western world.’

    Oh bollocks.

    People aren’t going to die for your Green Planet. So if you want to virtue signal, knock yourself out — but if you want to actually get somewhere, work out what can be realistically done and advocate it.

    (Hint: starts with a ‘n’ and ends with an ‘uclear.’)

    • Replies: @Oliver D. Smith
  197. dimples says:
    @Dieter Kief

    Sounds hot to me. I want to be a perfessor like Kevin Barrett!

  198. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    IMO, the main danger of Islam to the West is in its unique ability to facilitate a large-scale ethnogenesis.

    Seems like a crazy idea, until we consider how backwards much of the Islamic world was until fairly recently, and how the historical arc of the West was towards universalism. In fact, if we ignore the occasional turf wars between gangs of migrants, despite their evident diversity, they already seem pretty united in their political antagonism towards the rights of Europeans.

    I expect that the culture of terrorism to decline as their TFR declines. This will help heal some of the ethnic rifts.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  199. @Colin Wright

    The least costly, realistic and most effective way to reduce carbon emissions is not to have children.
    We’ve observed a global decline in fertility for many decades – the decline just needs to be speeded up.

    https://www.zmescience.com/ecology/fewer-children-carbon-footprint-042342/
    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541/meta

    Note the comparison of the emissions reductions from various individual actions – not having children is the most effective way to reduce emissions – a lot more effective than shifting to renewable energy and nuclear.

    Who is virtue signalling? Despite being childfree is the most effective way to solve the climate-crisis – politicians and science textbooks don’t even discuss being voluntary childfree as a solution. There is a such a pro-natalist bias in all societies that prevents textbooks merely mentioning it. From the above science study-

    “We found that the 216 individual recommended actions from textbooks overwhelmingly focused on moderate or low-impact actions, with our recommended actions mostly presented in a less effective form, or not at all (only eight mentions, or 4%). No textbook suggested having fewer children as a way to reduce emissions, and only two out of ten mentioned avoiding air travel (figure 2).”

  200. @Colin Wright

    Alright. But are Muslims actually doing much that Christians are not? There seems to be an element of paranoia here. No one objects to people wearing crosses and even nuns’ habits, but we get enormous furors over headscarves — ordinary wear among European peasant women within living memory.

    I find the Christian aesthetic quite beautiful. I may not believe any of it, but I’m never bothered if I see Christian symbols. There’s no ‘paranoia’ here (lol), it’s just an appreciation of what is my own, and a feeling of disgust at symbols of a faith and culture that is intrinsically hostile to my best interests. Contrast this to Hinduism. I’m hardly overjoyed at being flooded by hindoos, but I wouldn’t be remotely as bothered by a hindoo temple being constructed across the road from me as I would by a mosque. Neither would most sane people.

    As for headscarves specifically, although I’d certainly oppose any Christian attempt to force our women to wear them, they’re not as bad as the Islamic headscarf. You know that one that’s wrapped around the entire skull with aerodynamic tightness? That thing is just plain fucking ugly, no two ways about it. And that’s not even their greatest aesthetic blunder, that honor going to the body-length variety, with full face covering – holy shit that thing is nightmarish. (In terms of its impact on attracting converts, I guess we should be grateful that Islamic garb is such an eyesore.)

    But I object to the attempt to turn Islam — as a theological and social formula — into something radically better or worse than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, or Jainism. It’s not.

    I think you simply object to evaluating Islam, apparently for fear of what that would force you to think about it. So you delude yourself with goofy libtard-derived notions about how it’s ‘neither better nor worse.’ Why do this to yourself Colin? You’re perfectly entitled to embrace a set of values and you’re perfectly entitled reject -even revile – Islam for failing to conform to them. It’s really that simple.

    I wouldn’t want to live in a community where everyone was a fervent Christian anymore than I would want to live in one where everyone was a fervent Muslim.

    You know as well as I do that if that were the only choice available – which it will never be, so this just more evasion of the central point on your part – you’d choose to live around the fervent Christians rather the fervent muslims in a heartbeat. For me, faking being a true believing Christian would be more of an inconvenience and a nuisance, whereas faking being a muslim would an immense mental burden. I think I’d have to periodically conduct a private Koran-burning ritual to ‘cleanse’ my spirit.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  201. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    And Spain would have really been better off with continued Visigothic rule than it was under Islam? Seriously?

    Of course it would have been, it was a great tragedy that the Visigothic kingdom fell which was in many ways a continuation of the late Roman empire (one of its kings, Sisebut, even composed Latin poetry). Without the Islamic conquest, the peninsula would likely have remained unified and been spared many wars.

    Do you have similarly strong feelings when it comes to Buddhism?

    No, because Buddhism hasn’t been historically an enemy of European civilization and there’s no mass immigration of Buddhists to Europe continually pushing for more privileges and acting out violently. No Buddhist statesmen threatening Europe either like Turkey’s Erdogan regularly does. Simply not comparable.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  202. @Colin Wright

    And Spain would have really been better off with continued Visigothic rule than it was under Islam? Seriously?

    Not just ‘seriously,’ but obviously.

    The Spaniards never ceased struggling to cast of the Islamic yoke, whereas I’m not aware of any sustained effort to oppose Visigothic rule. The latter may not have been ‘good,’ but the Spaniards evidently found it preferable.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  203. @Colin Wright

    The Arabs didn’t wreck anything at all. They certainly changed things — but that’s another matter.

    The Arabs obviously wrecked the existing Christian civilization in the Levant and Egypt. What could possibly possess you to deny this?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  204. songbird says:
    @Talha

    I don’t think Islam was singularly destructive. Romans probably destroyed some interesting Carthaginian history. I’m not saying I definitively believe it, seeing how Herodotus was the source, but I’d give it at least a 40% chance that Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa – if true, that would have been interesting to read about. They had the hides of chimps or gorillas or something in one of their temples. (Not saying Roman society wasn’t better)

    But I don’t think its wrong to say desert Arabs were pretty barbaric. Pretty true of nomads in general.

    In 378 AD, the Goths defeated a Roman army outside Adrianople. Constantinople was left virtually defenseless. Only a band of Saracen warriors imported from Arabia rallied to city’s defense. The turning point in the battle occurred when a lone Saracen, wearing only a loincloth, raced into the Gothic army, stabbed a soldier, and then preceded to drink the blood from his neck, terrifying even the Goths, despite the fact that they were also barbarians.

    Of course, that was before the civilizing influence of Islam.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Colin Wright
  205. @silviosilver

    ‘…I think you simply object to evaluating Islam, apparently for fear of what that would force you to think about it. So you delude yourself with goofy libtard-derived notions about how it’s ‘neither better nor worse.’ Why do this to yourself Colin? You’re perfectly entitled to embrace a set of values and you’re perfectly entitled reject -even revile – Islam for failing to conform to them. It’s really that simple…’

    You’re wrong.

  206. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Of relevance to the subject:
    “ Russia
    In 2013, the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation was amended with provisions criminalizing activities aimed at insulting the religious feelings of believers.[140] Article 148 of the Criminal Code provides for a fine or up to one year of imprisonment or forced labor for “actions demonstrating disrespect to the society if performed with the purpose of insulting religious feelings of believers.” The amount of the fine and the term of imprisonment are significantly increased if these actions were performed in places designated for religious services and ceremonies. Reportedly, these “blasphemy amendments” were added to the Code because of the legal vacuum discovered during the trial of three members of the Pussy Riot music band who conducted a protest performance at a cathedral in Moscow and were sentenced to two years of imprisonment for hooliganism.[141]> Since 2013, only a few cases have been prosecuted under article 148 of the Criminal Code; the harshest sentence was two hundred hours of public service for arguing the divinity of the Bible in an online social network discussion.[142]”

    “ Back to Top

    Switzerland
    Article 261 of the Swiss Criminal Code provides as follows:

    Any person who publicly and maliciously insults or mocks the religious convictions of others, and in particularly their belief in God, or maliciously desecrates objects of religious veneration, any person who maliciously prevents, disrupts or publicly mocks an act of worship, the conduct of which is guaranteed by the Constitution,
    or any person who maliciously desecrates a place or object that is intended for a religious ceremony or an act of worship the conduct of which is guaranteed by the Constitution, is liable to a monetary penalty not exceeding 180 daily penalty units.[159]

    Between 1960 and 2010, there were a total of 161 court cases dealing with article 261 of the Swiss Criminal Code. On average, there were three convictions per year.[162] ”

    “ Back to Top

    Thailand [67]
    The State Department’s InternationalReligiousFreedomReportfor 2012: Thailand stated that “the 1962 Sangha Act [last amended in 2007] specifically prohibits the defamation or insult of Buddhism and the Buddhist clergy. Violators of the law can face up to one year’s imprisonment or fines of up to 20,000 baht (approximately [US]$667).”[68] The 2015 report contained a similar statement but did not mention the name of the law.[69]”

    “ Brazil
    Article 208 of the Brazilian Penal Code punishes with detention of one month to one year or a fine a person who mocks someone publicly for reasons of his/her belief or religious role, prevents or disturbs a religious ceremony or practice, or publicly vilifies an act or object of religious worship.[188] If the conduct involves the use of violence, the punishment is increased by one-third, without prejudice to the punishment corresponding to the act of violence itself.[189]”
    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/blasphemy/index.php

    It could well be debated that totally, unrestricted speech is the outlier among world cultures.

    • Thanks: Sirius
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  207. @silviosilver

    ‘The Arabs obviously wrecked the existing Christian civilization in the Levant and Egypt. What could possibly possess you to deny this?’

    Fine. Describe to us the Christian civilization in the Levant and Egypt as it existed on the eve of the Islamic conquests.

    Oh — gee. You know nothing about it, do you?

    …but you know it was fine up to that point, then wrecked.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  208. @silviosilver

    ‘Not just ‘seriously,’ but obviously.

    ”The Spaniards never ceased struggling to cast of the Islamic yoke, whereas I’m not aware of any sustained effort to oppose Visigothic rule. The latter may not have been ‘good,’ but the Spaniards evidently found it preferable.’

    …and I think Wakanda is real, and the Pharaohs were black, and I’m just going to insist on it. It’s what I want to be so, so it must be so.

    Hey…we’re soulmates!

    • LOL: Talha
  209. @Colin Wright

    Oh — gee. You know nothing about it, do you?

    Nothing you’ve ever said indicates to me that you know anything more about it than I do.

    Btw, it’s a safe bet I’m better read on the Israel-Palestine conflict than you, but even though I disagree with you on that issue, I don’t claim my superior knowledge prohibits you from having an opinion. You seem to think that not knowing as much as someone else is a slam dunk argument of itself. Grow up.

    …but you know it was fine up to that point, then wrecked.

    Where did I ever say it was fine? Answer: nowhere. I only observed that it once existed and now no longer does, and that that is because of the Arab muslim conquest.

    …and I think Wakanda is real, and the Pharaohs were black, and I’m just going to insist on it. It’s what I want to be so, so it must be so.

    Did the Spaniards sustain a centuries-long struggle against the muslims? Yes or no?

    Did the Spaniards sustain a centuries-long struggle against the Visigoths? Yes or no?

    It doesn’t matter that this struggle was not at all times religiously motivated, only that it was, in fact, a centuries-long struggle.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
  210. Talha says:
    @songbird

    But I don’t think its wrong to say desert Arabs were pretty barbaric.

    Quite, before Islam civilized them – as you yourself mentioned. Here is what one of the pagan Arab-prince clients of the Sassanids did when he raided Byzantine territory on their behalf in their wars:
    “Mundhir III, the ruler of the Lakhmid kingdom in southern Mesopotamia, attacks Syria and does a significant amount of damage before the Byzantine army stops his progress at Antioch. He nevertheless is able to return home with much booty. Mundhir returns with some 400 Christian nuns among his prisoners and he sacrifices the nuns to the Arabic goddess al-Uzza.”
    Faiths Across Time: 5,000 Years of Religious History

    Some accounts state he burned them alive. So you can see what could have happened had the Arabs conquered as pagans. But, (thankfully) as I pointed out, there are no records of these kinds of destructive actions under the early Muslim conquests under the Rashidun. There was no policy akin to what the Mongols had or what the European tribes did to Rome, etc. These were major metropolitan centers of Late Antiquity; you cannot wantonly destroy a city like Alexandria or Damascus and hide the evidence.

    Otherwise, depends on what you mean by “barbaric”, that they did not have much in the way of metallurgy or medicine or science, etc. If so, yes; they were certainly a semi-nomadic people that straddled the spectrum between city-dwellers and nomads (mostly depending on tribe). Some tribes and Arab peoples in the North did do some pretty impressive stuff. Petra still attracts tourists.

    To the South you had a land like Yemen (the origin of the Qahtani Arabs) which did have some impressive history, for instance the remains of a massive dam:
    “One of the grandest engineering marvels of the ancient world—the Great Dam of Marib in central Yemen—has been damaged in an airstrike, according to local news reports and archaeological experts in touch with local sources.

    Ancient Marib was the capital of the wealthy caravan kingdom of Saba (biblical Sheba, home of the legendary queen), which thrived during the first millennium B.C. Along with remains of the Great Dam, considered the most important ancient site in Yemen, excavations of the Sabaean capital have revealed two elaborate pre-Islamic temple precincts dedicated to Almaqah, the chief deity of the kingdom.”
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/06/150603-Yemen-ancient-Sheba-dam-heritage-destruction-Middle-East-archaeology/

    So it does depend on the Arabs we are talking about. I do know that the pagan Arabs in the Prophet’s region would regularly bury their baby daughters, so yeah, that certain sounds barbaric.

    Peace.

  211. @German_reader

    ‘…Of course it would have been, it was a great tragedy that the Visigothic kingdom fell which was in many ways a continuation of the late Roman empire (one of its kings, Sisebut, even composed Latin poetry). Without the Islamic conquest, the peninsula would likely have remained unified and been spared many wars…’

    This is a gross mischaracterization of the feeble, degenerate, and unpopular Germanic tribal state that was Visigothic Spain. What few artifacts it has left are remarkable primarily for the massive cultural decline they evidence. It was truly the dark ages at their worst: murderous, primitive, and virtually devoid of cultural achievement. If this was all that Western Europe could have ever produced, the Muslims would have done us a favor if they had overrun the whole place.

    There may be an argument to be made for your case, but you’re not coming up with it.

    • Agree: Sirius
    • Replies: @German_reader
  212. @songbird

    ‘…Of course, that was before the civilizing influence of Islam…’

    Was that influence exercised only on the Arabs, or on the Goths as well? See Spain.

    It’s comic. I’m actually not especially partial to Islamic as opposed to Christian civilization.

    But if the self-appointed partisans of Christendom can’t quit being such idiots…

    • Replies: @songbird
  213. @Talha

    ‘…It could well be debated that totally, unrestricted speech is the outlier among world cultures.’

    To put it mildly.

    More to the point, has it ever been practiced in Continental Europe?

    My impression is that it isn’t today.

  214. Anonymous[176] • Disclaimer says:

    At the end of the day, there is only one solution, and one solution only:

    The entire western/EU political class must be ‘breiviked’ with absolutely no quarter or mercy whatsoever given.

    After that, the black/brown invader population would be treated fairly and humanely – with their peaceful and orderly repatriation to the land of their fathers efficiently executed.

  215. Anonymous[176] • Disclaimer says:

    What has really made the Abrahamic religions creation story of the Adam, the first man, doubtful for me is the Darwinian paradigm – especially when it is coupled to the real and obvious concrete fact of the existence of negroes.

  216. Anonymous[381] • Disclaimer says:
    @songbird

    No. No. No.

    A billion billion times No.

    The ruling ideology of the entire western political class – which is adhered to as zealously as any religious faith, ironically enough – is of dismantling all immigration controls whatsoever and inviting the entire population if the third world to settle in Europe.
    And of course, to all intents and purposes, the black/brown population of the third world is, effectively, infinite. As are the numbers of those who will, surely, take advantage of the offer.

    Of course, the political class tries to hide their deceit and double dealing from the peasants – it might ‘frighten the horses, you know’.
    But, believe you me, when the opportunity arises – Blair 1997, Merkel 2015, By God, do they seize it with both hands.

  217. Anonymous[381] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    All this sort of talk is absolute, pure bollocks.

    Look, the Saudis, the great, intelligent and brave people that they are, manage very, very well by having boatloads of wogs sweeping the streets, wiping the arses and emptying the dust bins.
    The wogs are – quite rightfully and intelligently – are treated exactly as work cattle – do the job, take the pay and then just fuck off !!!! – and cause no trouble. Just a means of production, no more, no less. They way it should be.
    Notice how known of these work cattle wogs *ever* but *ever* DARE even to disrespect the Saudis or even have the audacity to demand so much as a fart from them.

    Now, the more amenable, tractable and domicile brand of wog, such as the Filipinos, who happen to have rather cute women, IF, the the much fabled ‘labor shortage’ ever does come, could be used under a *proper zero rights, zero settled status, return home, renewable time limited contract* basis.

  218. @Not Only Wrathful

    #157

    Sorry, lived in a number of Islamic countries and found them to be families giving a lot of support and love to one another. Of course economic hardship can drive any one to familial abuse.

    Obviously, you just are just projecting your deeply ingrained bigotry and hate, that is fine, keep it with you, it will burn your soul.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
  219. @Tommy Thompson

    You might learn what projection means before you use it. And yes, it much better applies to you. You obviously projected the repressed (unexpressed) parts of yourself onto them. Work out what that makes your persona and you’ll be a lot wiser…

  220. @Tommy Thompson

    For what, being pious, religiously tolerant, living an ethical and spiritual life style (of course excluding the Muslim born street thugs found throughout France) ?

    What a pile of excrement Islam has problem with every single non Muslim society, from Christians in Philippines to the Han in China, the Hindus in India to the Buddhists in Myanmar & Thailand and with Jews the West you name it, if you can’t see this you are willfully blind or a disguised Muslim fishing for souls.

    Maybe in 100 years or s , it will be viewed as a blessing that a large number of Muslims joined French society and reinvigorated a moral and spiritual life to the materialistic degeneracy that our Capitalistic society has purposely caused. The North African migrants of older generations are largely French now, even if non-Catholic and even if not welcomed into French society proper.

    I say this as coming from a background of a University brain washed atheist, moving to agnostic and now realizing that spirituality is a key factor for a balanced life and outlook.

    Maybe you cucks in the West will rollover for Islam not the others. Go ahead and cast your lot with these medieval savages, the other non Islamic civilizations still have the balls and the will to resist these savages.

  221. Anonymous[108] • Disclaimer says:

    Anyway, my point is that as a hardcore no compromises dyed-in-the-wool white nationalist, I clearly and unequivocally state that I’d infinitely prefer to live in a full blown Islamist France, with the toughest sharia law possible, than live in a France governed by the contemporary French political class – those filthy unwashed, malodorous bacteria infested shit cunts, neo liberal, Economist whipped personified excrement who apart from imposing the filth and lies of their ‘equality’ open border agenda wish, by golly, more than anything else in the world *to destroy the white race*

    I just wish more people could understand the *TRUTH* of the matter.

  222. Sirius says:
    @Talha

    I wouldn’t go so far as to reject the liberal system if I were you. Sure, it may go too far, but the essence is that debate is possible. The line drawn should maybe be somewhere, but not a complete rejection of the liberal system.

    I would argue that the early Islamic systems of the first 4 or 5 centuries (from 622 CE on) were quite liberal and tolerated much discussion and criticism. And that was integral to Islam’s early success and partly what produced Islam’s Golden Age.

    To bring it back to relevance to this debate: rather than Westerners viewing Islam as a threat because of its alleged intolerance, Westerners should be engaging Muslims in debate over liberal values and freedoms. I would bet many or most Muslims in Western countries cherish those liberal values and that there is plenty of debate within those communities themselves, whether in North America or in Europe.

    One of early Islam’s greatest contributions was itself tolerance, a value that somehow got lost in later times but needs to be revived.

    The free flow of ideas is ultimately far healthier than its suppression.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Talha
  223. songbird says:
    @Talha

    In fairness to Alex, Persia did do a number on Greece.

    • Replies: @Talha
  224. Anonymous[108] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sirius

    To repeat myself, as a white nationalist, I would rather be ruled over by Islam and sharia law than the fucking shitty ‘liberal’ values that are killing off the white man.
    If there was an Armageddon, a Battle Royalle between ‘liberal values’ and the Darb el Islam, I would go an pick up my gun and fight – to the death – for Dar el Islam.

    *THAT* is what I think of ‘liberal values’.

    • Replies: @Talha
  225. Talha says:
    @songbird

    In fairness to Alex, Persia did do a number on Greece.

    Correct. I believe I had mentioned it was normative practice for the Persians too. I did mention Persepolis so maybe I should mention Athens as well. What truly sucks is if you were the average man living in the cities being besieged and attacked in a back an forth by these various empires. As Prof. Penn mentions, that is where you see the “destruction layers” from those conflicts. Much more preferable to have what happened during the early Muslim expansions; your local imperial garrison goes out with others to meet the Muslims in pitch battle out in a field like Yarmouk, which is still not very populated:
    They suffer a bone-crushing defeat and your city simply says; “OK…uh…terms…?”

    Much easier on you as a baker or cobbler.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @songbird
  226. Talha says:
    @Sirius

    The line drawn should maybe be somewhere, but not a complete rejection of the liberal system.

    All of what you are saying sounds very nice, but this is the problem…there is no indication or evidence that this train was built with any sort of brakes. To stop it from reaching the extremes at all means you have to break with one or more of its core foundational principles, which means you cannot accept it in toto. So yes, sure, it is fine to borrow some ideas from it – no problem. But that is not adopting it, that is simply borrowing some of its ideas that work and don’t necessarily break with your own core principles – I mean, that can be said about Communism as well.

    I would argue that the early Islamic systems of the first 4 or 5 centuries (from 622 CE on) were quite liberal and tolerated much discussion and criticism. And that was integral to Islam’s early success and partly what produced Islam’s Golden Age.

    Yes, they absolutely tolerated criticism and debate (I’m totally fine with this and encourage it)…they did not tolerate the public reviling or denigration of God or His prophets (pbut). And, as I showed with the link by examples, many societies (not just Muslims) see this as something normal to limit.

    I would bet many or most Muslims in Western countries cherish those liberal values and that there is plenty of debate within those communities themselves, whether in North America or in Europe.

    Some yes, some no. The issue again is, do we have to accept the whole package? Even when they force LGBT indoctrination in the name of tolerance on our young kids?

    And – as you say, the Muslims have our own tradition of tolerance…maybe it doesn’t match the liberal version, but then why should we adopt a different framework if we already had one that was working? Why not simply make a few adjustments on something that worked for us?

    Peace.

  227. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    “Your position as governor of the white millet in the aftermath and commander of its local garrisons has been assured.”

    Peace.

  228. songbird says:
    @Colin Wright

    Christianity, as it has existed in Europe, despite current attempts to dismiss it as a Jewish subversion, has effectively been a native European religion. It had a pretty significant civilizing potential, and, over time, it realized this potential, to a large degree in many barbaric peoples such as the Normans, who became vastly better rulers, as they sought the legitimacy that the Church conferred.

    That is not to say that no Christian ever committed a sin or had no shortcomings, but neither is it to say conquest by Islam was preferable, or that Europeans should accept any of the propaganda which seems to have been invented as progressive revisionism, largely post WW2, and which has been designed to promote multiculturalism, or to put into more honest terms – the displacement of Europeans.

    I can think of at least three points of this propaganda:
    1.) Crusaders were greedy xenophobes. They had no provocations and no higher spiritual purposes.
    2.) Islam was necessary to pass on European knowledge to Europeans. (Maybe, the narrative should be Muslims were lucky to gain the knowledge of Europeans?)
    3.) Andalusia was a multicult utopia, ruined by the intolerant natives. The Spanish were evil to reconquer their own country, and Jews were innocent bystanders, the whole time.

    [MORE]

    It seems you have repeated #2 and #3, in part, if not in whole. Do you agree with them in whole? And/or also agree with #1?

    I struggle to think of any analogy to the indignity of being a European and being force-fed these these myths in school, while you are being invaded, on a scale which makes it the world’s greatest invasion ever.

    I doubt North Africans are taught about their pirate and slaving past and about how the French vastly increased their life expectancy and opened schools on a scale never seen before. I doubt they are taught that France has already been more invaded than North Africa ever was, and how it has been detrimental to the French. And that is the bald truth – I’m not saying it should be forced into their lesson plans, but I think you were pretty harsh on German_reader just because he rejected the idea that Europeans should be force-fed much worse.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  229. @Lot

    Agree that the bible has good parts and weak parts, Lot. There are, most fundamentally, the Ten Commandments, and there is much wisdom, as well, in Psalms and Proverbs. The state of my own soul, my family, and my nation would all be much improved if I had followed them more diligently.

    Also agree that the koran is a stupidly “organized” collection of things that are either lunatic, not coherent, or have nothing to teach us today. Nobody has ever come close to explaining the “logic” of ordering the verses by length, rather than by chronology or at least topic.

    Then there is the doctrine of abrogation, which provides that later verses supersede earlier verses when they conflict. Sounds like an embarrassingly transparent convenient way to wave away Mo’s arbitrary self-serving changes in what he claimed was “revealed by God.” It should be impossible to conclude that a text comes from an omniscient, omnipotent, and holy God when the supposed revelations therein aren’t even consistent with each other. The usual excuses of “but have you read it in the original language?” or “it was mis-translated” from Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, Greek, are unavailing. Translation doesn’t explain the absurdity and inconsistency and barbarity we find in both books.

    Especially enjoyed the part of the koran where Mo says “God told me I could have sex with another man’s wife.” Yeah. And God told me that I could also do whatever the Hell I want, give in to my basest desires, and somehow still be the paragon of virtue.

    Having said that, I don’t see what is wrong with telling people to respect and fear God, to give alms to the poor, to make a pilgrimage to show one’s faith and devotion, etc. But it is readily possible to follow those kind or harmless tenets without adopting the vicious slapped-together mess that is “the” koran.

    Honesty and decency should not permit anyone who follows the koran to call christianity or judaism incoherent, irrational, or vicious. Likewise, “the” bible hardly comes out smelling like a rose if we scrutinize it and are honest about what we find. Example: a perfectly nonjudgmental, seemingly positive portrayal of women having sex with their drunken father, knowing that he is their father — yeah, that’s the “holy” bible that is supposedly totally different from and better than the koran in all respects.

    Perhaps this is because God did not, in fact, send down the entirety of the bible or the entirety of the koran as his holy, logical, just word.

  230. songbird says:
    @Talha

    I’ve often wondered why armies sometimes fought outside city gates instead on manning the walls, which would seem to have given them a huge advantage. I suppose that would be one possible explanation. Or were they worried about disease or food? No idea.

    I have proof positive (rare) that one of my ancestors lived in small castle which Cromwell’s troops heavily damaged. I also know that they viewed him as a combatant and that he survived the war, though I have no idea if he was in the castle when the army showed up. Cromwell, I believe, had already left Ireland at that time.

    • Replies: @Talha
  231. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    What few artifacts it has left are remarkable primarily for the massive cultural decline they evidence.

    It left much more behind than a “few artifacts”, the canons of the church councils of Toledo had a significant influence on later canon law in Latin Christendom, and there were also important literary works (especially Isidore’s Etymologiae, but also some historiography like the Historia Wambae regis). Sure, by modern secular standards it may not be very impressive. But my point is that there was significant continuity with Late Roman Christian culture (and even elements of classical culture, king Sisebut whom I already mentioned evidently knew and to some extent imitated Lucretius and Manilius who had written highly complex poems about natural phenomena). The Islamic conquest brought a traumatic break, interrupted organic development and forced centuries of warfare on the Christian areas which remained free of Islamic occupation. There’s absolutely nothing positive about it imo.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  232. Talha says:
    @songbird

    I’ve often wondered why armies sometimes fought outside city gates instead on manning the walls, which would seem to have given them a huge advantage.

    If you read the works by someone like military historian Prof. David Nicolle, there are a few factors going on.

    1. The Byzantines and Sassanids were very overconfident – especially at the beginning. The Arabs were always satraps or foederati – and these were the northern ones. So they thought they could easily defeat the Arabs from the south who were outnumbered and poorly equipped. This led them to the early pitched battles, a couple of them which were blow outs akin to the Battle of Cannae. Specifically battles like Qadissiyah and Yarmouk. This basically broke the back of their imperial armies and they were on the back foot for the rest of the time.
    2. The Muslims (specifically Khalid ibn Walid [ra], being a master tactician) were often able to fool cities into meeting them in the open by sending a small force to harass and then feign retreat and – when pursued – they would meet up with a larger hidden contingent and then wipe out the defenders…again, leaving the city to come to terms.
    3. The Muslims were not very good at siege warfare – this was their disadvantage. But, they very mobile, and able to interdict supply lines.
    4. The Muslims were very lean as an army; quick, light, no supply lines (they could easily hunt and forage) so they could fight battles when and where they wanted when they felt it was to their advantage.
    5. There was also the issue of camels – yes, camels – which gave the Muslims certain advantages. As pack animals, they had to stop less for water than horses and were actually used as mobile water tanks at times. One of the most famous reported examples is when Khalid ibn Walid (ra) was told to immediately join the Syrian campaign as relief from his campaign against the Persians. The shortest route was 5 days, but they had to cross the desert for with no water to get to the destination. One of the men from Bani Tayy suggested they have group of camels that the stuff with water to take along. Those same camels were then slaughtered along the way for food and the men drank from their stored water.

    Why the bigger empires decided not to try to play to their own advantage, I don’t know if there is a satisfactory answer to this (hubris, lack of a clear game plan, etc.). But they made the same mistake over and over and over and lost their territories before they were able to derive any lessons.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @songbird
  233. @songbird

    I’ll leave aside your somewhat misplaced ‘are you now or have you ever been’ interrogation. Although I can see how the misconception arose, you really mistake my position.

    Let’s take this, though.

    ‘…I struggle to think of any analogy to the indignity of being a European and being force-fed these these myths in school, while you are being invaded, on a scale which makes it the world’s greatest invasion ever…’

    However much we might like it to be, history is not some kind of morality play leading to the exaltation of ourselves and our culture as the unique apogee of human achievement. It’s not merely that there are plenty of hiccups along the way — there’s no way at all. It’s a random walk.

    Surely you can repel the invasion without making up fairy tales first. I have no need to demonstrate than I’m a better lover than the man who just broke into my house. I’ll just shoot him.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @songbird
    , @silviosilver
  234. @German_reader

    ‘The Islamic conquest brought a traumatic break, interrupted organic development and forced centuries of warfare on the Christian areas which remained free of Islamic occupation. There’s absolutely nothing positive about it imo.’

    Curiously, what you’re practicing here is something somewhat akin to what has happened all the way over at the other end of the political spectrum.

    ‘Truth’ over Facts:

    https://www.takimag.com/article/truth-over-facts/

    What happened is unimportant. What matters is what fits the narrative.

    In general, I have absolutely no wish to see further immigration of any kind into or within Europe (or here, for that matter). Furthermore, if I had to pick, I’d take a world without Islam over a world without Christendom (although the consequent alterations in history would be so huge as to make our current world unimaginable). Finally, I’ll readily agree I’m much more intuitively comfortable and familiar with the various drives, foibles, tendencies, etc of Christianity than I am with whatever the equivalent are in Islam.

    However, none of that somehow makes Visigothic Spain a high point in the Western experience and Andalus somehow a black hole. The truth is almost literally the reverse.

    Whether that comfortably fits your narrative or not.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  235. How Fast Is France’s Muslim Population Growing?

    Too.

  236. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    the exaltation of ourselves and our culture as the unique apogee of human achievement.

    Everyone that climbs to the top says that until either replaced or superceded by others…ask the Persians.

    But your point is solid; the people of a humble nation like Vietnam don’t need to prove they were at the height of anything or that they achieved anything close to the Europeans in order to justify keeping those same Europeans out.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @songbird
  237. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    However, none of that somehow makes Visigothic Spain a high point in the Western experience and Andalus somehow a black hole.

    Visigothic Spain may not have been a “high point in the Western experience”, but at least it was recognizably part of it, unlike Islamic al-Andalus.
    I don’t think there’s much point in continuing the discussion, for some reason you seem to be averse to a negative view of Islam in principle (and for the record: I’m opposed to Western military interventions in the Islamic world, I have no interest in waging a war of civilizations to bring democracy and gay rights to Islamic countries, so you can’t accuse me of being a war-mongering neocon).

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  238. @Talha

    ‘Everyone that climbs to the top says that until either replaced or superceded by others…ask the Persians.’

    The irony is that it can be true — in a very subjective sense.

    As a rule, we are better at living up to our own values than anyone else, anywhere, has ever been. I mean, for example, we just kick ass at extending rights, considerations, encouragement, etc to transsexuals. I doubt if twelfth-century Frenchmen even came close.

  239. @Talha

    ‘…If you read the works by someone like military historian Prof. David Nicolle, there are a few factors going on…’

    The explanations offered, while probably valid enough, seem insufficient.

    For one thing, Muslim success continued for a long time. There was about a hundred years there of more or less uninterrupted advance. So surely their adversaries had time to adapt, to anticipate, to emulate.

    For another, the advances continued into all kinds of regions quite unlike the deserts of Arabia. The early Arab conquerors managed to literally span about half the old world. By the eighth century, their battlefields reached from Talas in Central Asia to France.

    As a third element, the conquests proved relatively permanent. It’s not just that most of the lands in question have remained Muslim to the present day; it’s that one would think that uprisings and or assimilation would have swiftly erased all the advances or forced the conquerors to devote their energies to policing their holdings. For example, sure Alexander conquered Persia — but how much was left of Macedonian hegemony three hundred years down the road?

    Why were the Muslims of the eighth century able to advance into Spain? Why weren’t they busy, for example, trying to recover a rebellious Egypt? After all, the overwhelming bulk of Egyptians were still Christian — it would be hundreds of years before Egypt became a majority-Muslim region.

    • Replies: @Talha
  240. @Talha

    Not in the news in Germany – not even in the alternative news. Spooky. – But important, of course.

  241. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    The explanations offered, while probably valid enough, seem insufficient. For one thing, Muslim success continued for a long time.

    Yes, good point here. I was just really talking about the Rasidun conquests where the power dynamic was quite different between the sides. Once the Ummayyads and definitely the Abbassids come about, the Muslims are THE alpha empire that has all the equipment of Byzantine and Sassanids, has absorbed all of their elite and specialized units and tactics and is just as good as anyone at pulling successful sieges and even naval conquests (the Ummayyads made multiple attempts at Constantinople).

    Why were the Muslims of the eighth century able to advance into Spain?

    Definitely helped by an influx of new people like the Berbers keeping the forward momentum going.

    Why weren’t they busy, for example, trying to recover a rebellious Egypt?

    Couple of things; 1) they weren’t concerned about trying to force Copts (or other non-Clacedonian sects) to toe the official line like the Byzantines were (all of them were just “People of the Book”) and 2) as a leaner new administration, they were less of a tax liability to the locals.

    Prof. Robert Hoyland mentions this farily early on in his book “Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam”:
    “This trend continued and was extended under the Muslims, who made little distinction between any of the conquered peoples, designating most as ‘People of the Book’ and offering them freedom of action in return for loyalty and taxes. This was accepted with some relief by many groups formerly under the rule of Byzantine emperors, who had generally pursued a less liberal policy than their Sasanian counterparts with regard to religious difference…One is forced to conclude that the differing reactions of Christians reflects not a difference in their treatment at the hands of the Arabs, but rather a difference in their perceptions and intentions, which in turn depended upon and mirrored their differing allegiances…But in Greek writings the Muslims were never anything but enemies of God…The crucial difference was that the Christians of Iraq had no lost or diminished sovereignty to lament. As regards their faith, they had no reason to rue the Sasanian’s passing nor to expect deliverance from them. Thus it was both easier and more necessary for them to accept the change of rulers than for their Byzantine counterparts…It is, then, becasue the Arabs were to them political as well as religious enemies that Byzantines were so hostile. This affected Greek writings in particular.”

    You can also read what the Syrian Orthodox Church (Archdiocese for the Eastern US) says:
    “When the Byzantine empire adopted the resolutions of the council of Chalcedon in 451, they began to oppress those who rejected these resolutions – first and foremost the members of the Syrian church. The church fathers and the believers had to endure various agonies like bans, killings and incarceration. Many of them, both clergy and laity, gained martyrdom. Justinius I carried out one of these oppression against the members of the Syrian, Coptic and Armenian churches after his ascension to the Byzantine throne in 518 A.D….Very often he [Heraclius] used ruthless oppression through which many Syrians, Copts, and Armenians became martyrs. The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. This happened with the help of the members of the Syrian Church; the original inhabitants of Syria of whom one part was of Aramaic origin who inhabited these areas for generations and another part was of Arabic origin. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church. The Syrians were also able through the cooperation with the Arab Muslims to retain their ecclesiastical dogma, the Antiochian See, their churches, monasteries, ecclesiastical inheritance and their liturgy. Therefore the Syrians under the Byzantine and Persian powers saw the Islamic conquerors as liberators and not as occupiers. The Syrians put great hope in them, not only because the Muslims liberated them from their religious trouble but also because they relieved the Syrians of the burdensome taxes that were placed on their backs. They said, ‘Praise be to God, who delivered us from the unjust Byzantines and who put us under the rule of the just Muslim Arabs.’”
    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    This is a generally good overview with Prof. Hoyland and others:

    Over time…some local converted to Islam either out of sincerity or because it was socially advantageous to do so (along with a prohibition on proselytizing to Muslims)…give that a few centuries…aaaaand, here we are.

    Peace.

  242. songbird says:
    @Talha

    The domestication of cattle, horses, and camels must have each precipitated major military changes leading to almost cataclysmic events. On a related note, I wonder how much of the increase in lactose tolerance was purely due to the advantages it conferred in warfare, rather than the specific benefit of the extra energy of lactose in a peaceful setting.

    I suppose the deserts have been growing, so maybe oases weren’t always so isolated, but still, if I had a time machine, there are one or two isolated spots that I’d like to poke around before the camel was introduced. Maybe, you’d see some weird customs or civilization surviving there.

    I think it is cool how they feed some camels meat, and I think it would be interesting to see a western movie set in the desert with camels instead of horses.

    • Replies: @Talha
  243. @German_reader

    ‘…I don’t think there’s much point in continuing the discussion, for some reason you seem to be averse to a negative view of Islam in principle…’

    Why should I have a negative view of it? It’s commanded the loyalty of a fifth of mankind for over a thousand years. It’s highly unlikely to be a negative.

    This — ultimately — is the absurdity of your position. Islam and Christianity have been rivals for over a thousand years. For a good deal of that time, Islam was ahead. Then Christianity pulled ahead. But now Christianity’s largely been abandoned by its erstwhile adherents. So…

    So whatever. But there’s no particular reason in all that to condemn Islam. There’s not even much reason to fear it…unless you insist on admitting millions of its adherents.

    But the problem there is your admissions policy. It’s ridiculous to admit Muslims, then feel outraged because they persist in practicing their faith.

    What on earth did you expect? If you don’t like it, stop engaging in the behavior that causes it.

  244. @Talha

    ‘…Over time…some local converted to Islam either out of sincerity or because it was socially advantageous to do so (along with a prohibition on proselytizing to Muslims)…give that a few centuries…aaaaand, here we are…’

    It occurs to me that it might be profitable to compare Islam’s success with the success the British had in imposing their rule on India.

    After all, there are similarities. The British were able to rule India with an almost absurdly small garrison — and in their heyday, with remarkably little trouble. From 1857 to about 1918, things really went along quite smoothly.

    …and at least arguably, for many of the same reasons Muslims found it easy to impose their rule. Surrender to the British imposed few burdens on the bulk of the vanquished. The British offered a lack of interest in interfering with the religion of the locals absent such extremes as the Thugees. They imposed relatively restrained taxation. They offered security from invading Afghans and things. Both the British and the Muslims felt obliged to adhere to a public body of law anyone could inspect to see what they might or might not do…

  245. songbird says:
    @Talha

    Vietnam had the support of the Soviet Union – the greatest or second greatest military power in the world depending how you measure it, (and the largest country by land area) as well as China, the most populous country in the world, and various other countries like the Eastern Bloc.

    Oh, it was low-level support in an economic sense (and considering the draft) compared to what the US invested in South Vietnam, but, then again, it lasted longer than US support, and the US didn’t really lose the war militarily. Its kill rate was much higher – as is to be expected from the hardware, training and logistics involved. It would have knocked North Vietnam flat, and very quickly, if that had been allowed by US political leadership at the time. That’s not to diminish the accomplishments of the North Vietnamese, but the situation is hardly comparable.

    Identitarians in Europe control no territory. Recall the Soviet army gave the communists their territory in North Vietnam and somewhat implicitly protected it with nuclear weapons – so it was never invaded. They gave them air defenses, machine guns, and various other supplies.

    The US had the support of the Hmong minority – but it was a small, isolated group compared to the migrants in Europe. The North Vietnamese faced ’60s technology. Impressive in many ways. Not everyone had night vision, but it was around. B-52s are still in use. They had cluster mines, napalm, defoliants, helicopter calvary, and a lot of other impressive tech.

    But they didn’t have 2020 tech, like facial recognition, low level AI, predator drones, cruise missiles, essentially 24/7 spy satellite coverage.

    • Replies: @Talha
  246. @Talha

    ‘…Over time…some local converted to Islam either out of sincerity or because it was socially advantageous to do so…’

    Or both. Human actions usually result from a combination of motives.

    I’m reminded of an exchange I’m pursuing elsewhere about Biden vs. Trump. My interlocutor is professing a sudden uncertainly about whether Biden is really all that bad. For one thing, he would do more about global warming…

    Well, that’s all probably true enough. But at the same time, what is also true is that his girlfriend is very definite about the need to fight global warming right now.

    One can see a practical motive as well as the idealistic one here for dude’s decision to abandon Trump. He can skip quite a few arguments. Now it’s ‘well Biden’s not all that great but okay — I’ll vote for him.’

    One can see how (a) Islam isn’t completely antithetical to Christianity, and (b) if you take it up, you can hang out with the cool dudes down at the Mosque. To get along, go along — and you’re still praying to God, right? Not to mention, as Islam comes to dominate the upper strata of society, your educated, articulate theological types are going to increasingly become Muslims. That village priest may still be there — but he’s likely to be a half-illiterate child of a peasant. The Muslims are going to have much more impressive advocates. It’s not going to be too hard to decide who’s making the better argument here.

    …not very surprisingly, in quite a few places the upper tiers of society tended to go over to Islam within a couple of centuries. Serbia and Crete both come to mind.

    • Replies: @Talha
  247. Talha says:
    @songbird

    I think it would be interesting to see a western movie set in the desert with camels instead of horses.

    I used to live in So Cal. There were places like Palm Springs and other places in the desert where they started growing dates that they imported from the Middle East. I remember they had camels there also that were used for rides during the Date Festivals and such. I believe they may be the descendants of the camels used in the experiment to create the first US Camel Corps before the Civil War. The invention of the automobile basically made them unnecessary – you can read more about it here:
    “The U.S. Army’s “Camel Corps” Experiment”
    https://armyhistory.org/the-u-s-armys-camel-corps-experiment/

    So – you aren’t far off; this could have a movie made about it. “Cowboys & Camels”…”Camelboys”…?

    Speaking of such things…you mentioned that Saracen who drank the blood of the warrior he slayed. This was not a normal practice, but in times of severe drought, the Arabs would indeed slit the throats of camels and drink their blood to keep alive. I read an article recently about how some people from places like the UAE (or somewhere) that still recall their elders doing this during a drought when they were young and the place had not yet become the oil-rich country it is now.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: songbird
  248. songbird says:
    @Colin Wright

    History is useful as propaganda. That is why they try to rewrite it through reinterpretation, or by blackwashing the past. I’ve never asserted that sins are inherited – though no doubt they have consequences. For what it is worth, if Islam were the native religion of Europe and the biggest grouping of people invading Europe were Christians, then I would reject the invasion and the historical revisionism that went with it, but that’s an alt history scenario – it doesn’t have any relevance here.

    You’ve lost me with the shooting part. I take it as a figure of speech, but I’m not sure what you mean by it, other than to maybe suggest the issue will be resolved with power, not moral accusations. Maybe, my response sounds feeble, but take it as it is:

    As a generality, action comes from power. Power comes from organization, and organization comes from ideas and commonality. Where we are at, these have to be low level ideas. The military is just an organ of the state, and we do not control the state and cannot win control of it by voting because the system is rigged. Alternative parties anyway seem to be under heavy surveillance by the establishment and subject to many organized attempts at subversion. It may eventually come down to “Deus vult” vs. “Alluhu akbar.” Counterintuitively, a lot of the organizing will likely be precipitated by the decay. Assuming society does decay further (seems a safe bet, though I don’t desire it.) Ultimately, the state is susceptible to the economic considerations of simple math.

    I don’t think it is useful to say we shouldn’t criticize Muslims for invading, (if that is one of your points). They have agency. They vote and have political representation both directly in people like Sadiq Khan and indirectly through their pull with the established parties. Yeah, there are other groups like Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, or Africans who are nominal Christians, and broadly I judge them (migrants) to be pretty hostile, selfish, and culpable too. But what makes Muslims most uniquely different is that they form the largest single block by far, within Europe.

    I don’t think it is useful to assert that the largest block can’t be criticized directly. That we should only be pointing the finger at ourselves or at immigrants in general, but not specific groups. That strikes me as a form of political correctness or speech taboo. The main problem with that is most people are highly conformist. If you remove the largest culpable group from criticism, some with a susceptible psychology, will assert they are saints, and defend them rabidly in order to gain status with the establishment which sets the speech codes.

  249. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    If you don’t like it, stop engaging in the behavior that causes it.

    That’s an idiotic statement, people like me have no power to stop anything, the entire establishment is against us and has no compunction in using ever increasing repression against any dissent. And if one wants to change discourse and the opinion of normies to an anti-immigration position, one needs at least some good arguments, and pointing out the incompatibility of devout Muslims with western societies is a lot more convincing than “Uh, I just don’t like foreigners, and that applies to all foreigners equally” which you’re advocating (as if that wouldn’t be immediately dismissed, and not entirely without reason, as unthinking prole xenophobia).

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Anonymous
  250. Talha says:
    @songbird

    I agree with a good amount of what you say, but my point still stands…it is any nation’s right to demand foreigners cease coming into it for whatever reason they deem fit. They don’t need to have accomplished some grand project in human history to make that assertion nor does any awesomeness accomplishment on the part of the foreigners confer on them any magical right of entry in opposition to the locals. I used Vietnam as an example; Peru or Tajikistan or Lesotho would have worked just as well.

    This of course is in our current state of affairs with international treaties, in the age of empires you entered when and where you wanted as you deemed fit and the locals had a right to oppose you and assert that opposition with spears and rifles.

    Peace.

  251. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Or both. Human actions usually result from a combination of motives.

    Good point and example.

    Islam isn’t completely antithetical to Christianity

    Christianity is our biggest gateway in the West:

    You can ask a random convert why to get their particular details. The general response I have heard, in my experience, is; relatively straight-forward concept of the Divine, toss vicarious atonement and incarnation but get to keep Jesus (pbuh).

    I was literally just contacted by a guy in over Twitter this week Manchester, just took his shahadah recently. Background? Alt/dissident/far-right. Why? Couldn’t stomach the nihilism and paganism-vibes anymore.

    He was about to step into a local mosque for the first time and had some questions so he wouldn’t embarrass himself. Really innocent stuff; can I use a beanie instead of a skull-cap? I told him; if they make you ever, EVER feel like you are intruding – that is their fault, that is the house of Allah – not theirs – He invites who He wants.

    Ginger? Yup – I have no idea why we have a disproportionate number of gingers converting in the UK, but…there it is.

    in quite a few places the upper tiers of society tended to go over to Islam within a couple of centuries.

    This happened with the nobles/elite in places like West Africa, Malaysia, Java, etc. Even various Mongol leaders (like the Golden Horde)…and back then, if one of those guys converted, you could basically count on the rest converting in due time.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  252. @German_reader

    ‘That’s an idiotic statement, people like me have no power to stop anything, the entire establishment is against us and has no compunction in using ever increasing repression against any dissent. ‘

    So you can’t do anything to stop the flood, and can’t do anything to drive out the newcomers.

    Do you think saying mean things about them is going to work?

    Do something about who is in charge. If what you’ve done hasn’t sufficed, do more.

    Here, my particular bete noir (pun not intended) are American blacks. They’re a horror. (We can trade, by the way. You take forty million blacks and we’ll take forty million Muslims. Kind of a big meal, but…)

    But I don’t blame the blacks for their behavior. They are what they are. I blame the politicians and the media that give them license, and do so much to aggravate their intolerable behavior.

    That’s who I fight. I don’t go around worrying about the blacks themselves.

    Your Muslims should stay in Syria et al and see if they are killed outright or just die of starvation?

    Of course they won’t — and being rude to them on the bus won’t discourage them from seeking refuge.

    So address your problem — and that problem isn’t the Muslims.

    If you won’t address it, at least quit with your pointless and false pseudo-historical bigotry. It’s not even relevant.

  253. @songbird

    ‘…You’ve lost me with the shooting part. I take it as a figure of speech, but I’m not sure what you mean by it…’

    What I mean by it is that it’s entirely irrelevant whether the person who wants to come into my country is in some way better than me. I don’t need to prove otherwise; it’s sufficient that I don’t want him to enter my country.

    Japanese may be wonderfully hardworking, sober, clean, considerate, and able to shoot three-pointers all day long. Ruritanians may be dreadfully lazy alcoholics who never bathe, are rude, and don’t even own a basketball.

    They still aren’t obliged to let Japanese into Ruritania. This whole attempt to demonstrate the irremediable awfulness of Muslims is simply beside the point.

  254. @Talha

    ‘He was about to step into a local mosque for the first time and had some questions so he wouldn’t embarrass himself. Really innocent stuff; can I use a beanie instead of a skull-cap? I told him; if they make you ever, EVER feel like you are intruding…’

    As an aside, non-Muslims don’t seem to be allowed into mosques in Morocco (at any rate, I didn’t try it on).

    It’s kind of irritating. After all, there are some (supposedly) impressive ones. I wouldn’t know. I never got to see the inside.

    • Replies: @Talha
  255. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    Your Muslims should stay in Syria et al and see if they are killed outright or just die of starvation?

    Of course they won’t — and being rude to them on the bus won’t discourage them from seeking refuge.

    So address your problem — and that problem isn’t the Muslims.

    Yes, I get what you want to say, it’s the Zionists and western governments with their destabilizing policies in the Mideast who are to blame. And to some extent I even agree with that analysis and have come to loathe Trump and his adminstration for their demented policies (like sanctions against Syria deliberately designed to block any reconstruction efforts). But it’s only a partial truth which unduly minimises the agency of subversives like Talha who very much have their own agenda. And I also have to say your perspective is typically American with its “You’re only getting the blowback for NATO’s wars, suck it up!” line. The wars in the Mideast aren’t driven by continental European politicians (Germany opposed both the 2003 Iraq and the 2011 Libyan war) and there’s nothing like the jingoistic enthusiasm here for them which still crops up regularly among many Americans (as was very visible after the Soleimani assassination in January). In typical American fashion you’re projecting American issues and arguments on America’s vassal states where they just don’t apply to the same extent.
    It’s also hard not to suspect that your views on Islam and Muslims are driven by your antipathy towards Jews (at least Zionist ones) and the state of Israel. This is a fundamental problem with Unz review, it’s basically a site for people who’ve got Jews on the brain – and nothing else, which makes it highly unsatisfying as a platform for European nationalists (but then it was never intended to be that).

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  256. @songbird

    ‘…I don’t think it is useful to assert that the largest block can’t be criticized directly. That we should only be pointing the finger at ourselves or at immigrants in general, but not specific groups…’

    Probably the immigrants can be criticized directly. However, I don’t think those flaws have much to do with them being Muslims. Somebody here might object to Mexicans. Alright — but are those shortcomings really on account of their being Christians?

    I’ll repeat something here. I’ve been in five different Muslim countries. I can’t say I was in any of them long enough to write ‘a complete guide to _______.

    However, I didn’t notice any particular commonality. Morocco isn’t any more like Iran than Romania is like Sweden, for example. So this aversion to ‘Muslims’ strikes me as above all, simply nonsensical. One might very well object to an Afghan. How much he has in common with a Turk is another matter.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  257. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    As an aside, non-Muslims don’t seem to be allowed into mosques in Morocco

    Morocco follows the Maliki school. According to the fatwa of the school; non-Muslims of any stripe cannot enter any mosque, anywhere – period. Usually this means the mosque interior and the courtyard space does not count.

    On the opposite side of the spectrum, the school I follow (Hanafi), allows non-Muslims of all stripes in any mosque – including the big ones in Makkah and Madinah.

    The Shafi’is are in the middle somewhere and permit People of the Book but nobody else. For Hanbalis, you have to find a scholar to ask them.

    So, if you go to places like Pakistan or India or Turkey or Egypt or Central Asia (where the Hanafi school is predominant), you shouldn’t have a problem.

    I do sometimes wish the Hanafi rule was in play in places like Makkah and Madinah (especially Madinah); whether or not people recognize him as such, he was their prophet too and – had he still been walking the earth, he would have received and met with them as he met with anyone who requested to see him.

    Peace.

  258. @Talha

    The major difference between them (if you follow these people like I do) is that our apostates mostly tend to go atheist and hyper-liberal; with much lower rates of getting married and having kids. I’ve had conversations with some high profile apostates and they know this. lol into it yourself.

    Meanwhile, the converts we get tend to be family oriented people. Almost all the converts I have come across (when they have done so at a relatively young age) have had at least 3 kids. They are attracted to the family aspect:

    Our apostates simply get replaced by others. Not surprising:
    “… Allah is Free of need, while you are the destitute. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.” (47:38)

    “O you who believe! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him…” (5:54)

    Train keeps moving, abandon your seat? You were just keeping it warm for someone else.

    People have been predicting conservative/religious victories due to birth rates in various places for ages. In Turkey, despite a generation of controlling the organs of state and institutions and favourable birth rates, the AKP has lost the youth.

    The Turkish religious plant the seeds, the secular reap the harvest.

    Saudi Arabia or Switzerland?

    The survey also implemented the method of having people make preferences through presenting alternatives to understand whether the youth prioritize money or freedom.

    “Would you like to live in Saudi Arabia with 10,000 dollar monthly income for the rest of your life or in Switzerland with 5,000 dollars?” was asked to the participants, with 72.2 choosing Switzerland. The ratio stood at 60.5 percent for AKP voters and 82.1 for CHP voters.

    When the same question was asked by replacing Saudi Arabia with North Korea, 64.3 of the youth once again chose Switzerland.

    “The results in these days that feature an economic crisis and intense unemployment came as both surprising and pleasing. Contrary to common belief, the youth wants to live their religion and beliefs as they please, but their priority is their freedom,” Aksoy said.

    https://www.duvarenglish.com/domestic/2020/05/19/survey-shows-nearly-half-of-akp-voting-youth-wants-to-live-abroad/

    Also note that while only 27.8% of youths would choose the KSA over Switzerland for a significant lifelong financial benefit it rises to 35.7% when non-Muslim North Korea is presented instead, suggesting that there is a noticeable part that believe that they would prefer living in North Korea over the KSA.

    In the survey released on Monday, the Konda polling company compared the opinions of Turkish citizens between the ages of 15 to 29 from 2008 to data taken last year [article is from 2019]. Over 1,700 people were interviewed.

    According to the survey, the number of Turkish youth who consider themselves to be religious has dropped from by 7 percent to 15 percent overall. Young people who describe themselves as “modern” also increased to 43 percent from 34 percent in 2008.

    Volkan Ertit, a scholar at Aksaray University who researches secularization in Turkey, told Middle East Eye that the survey only confirms other recent academic work that have shown similar trends, including studies on the increase in sex before marriage.

    “In all honesty, this is not about Erdogan,” said Ertit. “If you had Turkish opposition leader Kemal Kilicdaroglu or late Islamic-oriented leader Necmettin Erbakan as the president, the results would have been the same.

    “You cannot control the trajectory of society. You get secularization if you have these three components: urbanisation, capitalism and science. We have them.”

    The poll found significant shifts in how young people practice their religion with the number of those who fast dropping 16 percent to 58 percent total. There was also a three percent fall among those who pray daily to 24 percent.

    Ertit said it’s now clear that opening Imam-Hatip schools has not helped the government deliver the pious generation Erdogan spoke about.

    “Different studies show students at those schools increasingly having the same lifestyle [as] non-religious school students. It changes everything if you have smartphones, and the internet. Talk to a Imam-Hatip student. They would tell you that they have flirting in their school,” he said.

    Erdogan last year was taped as he reprimanded then-minister of education, Ismet Yilmaz, about a survey conducted by the ministry’s local branch in the city of Konya, which showed that many Imam-Hatip students believed in God but had a disdain for established religion.

    “It can’t be!” Erdogan told the minister in comments captured by an open mic.

    The poll also indicates that young people are becoming more tolerant. The respondents who say they can have a son-in-law or daughter-in-law with different religious beliefs increased by 17 percent to 64 percent. Interviewees who said they would be okay if their children had different sexual orientations than them rose 9 percent to 21 percent.

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkish-youth-increasingly-secular-and-modern-under-erdogan-poll-finds

    Even the once reliable conservative ethnic Turkish hinterland is also quickly converging with the birth rates of the more liberal and secular areas.

    Of course Turkey is only one country, but as a large country and a relatively successful country by regional standards (at least until Erdogan’s recent mismanagement) without being dependent on finite oil demand, it is a useful barometre. If it can happen to Turkey, what prevents other countries from following the same route?

    In this light might not your triumphalism appear as hubris?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Colin Wright
  259. @German_reader

    ‘Yes, I get what you want to say…’

    Well, I don’t think you do.

    First off, I very carefully avoided bringing up the cause of the Syrian catastrophe, since strictly speaking, that’s not the problem.

    The problem is your weird compulsion to admit refugees — whether they’re fleeing poverty in Upper Volta or flesh-eating alien invaders in Tajikistan. You don’t have to let them in. Wrap your head around that and your problem is solved. Don’t, and it will continue — at any rate, until your society collapses to the point where the Tajiks would rather just put up with the flesh-eating aliens.

    Second, my hostility to the soul-sucking evil commonly known as ‘Israel’ is really beside the point. I’ve been in five Muslim countries and lived around some Muslims here in the United States. That’s how I know there doesn’t seem to be anything in particular wrong with Muslims. I also have a passing acquaintance with history. That’s how I know your xenophobic fantasies are nonsense.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  260. German_reader says:
    @Colin Wright

    You don’t have to let them in.

    This is going in circles. I already explained to you that people like me have no control over Germany’s immigration and asylum policy. Of course to a large extent this is because most of my countrymen are left-wing open borders fanatics or stupid normies who robotically keep on voting for manifestly treasonous parties. I’ve never disputed this, to a large extent the problem is indeed with “us”(meaning western Europeans/white people). However none of this changes the fact that Muslims in general are highly undesirable as immigrants and cause manifold problems. tbh I feel this shouldn’t even be controversial on a blog such as this, it’s bizarre that even here one is getting lectured for “xenophobic fantasies”. I also notice that you haven’t reacted to Talha’s quote I linked to which clearly demonstrates his approval of an Islamic system with very harsh punishments for religious offenses, presumably because it doesn’t fit your “Muslims are always just like you and me” views. So this discussion is evidently going nowhere and I don’t see much point in continuing it; my position should have become clear enough.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  261. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    First off – thanks for the great info on Turkey, much appreciated! It isn’t something I haven’t come across before, but this is much better and detailed.

    In this light might not your triumphalism appear as hubris?

    There is no triumphalism for Muslims (that would indeed be hubris), there is for Islam. There is a difference. You cannot really be a Muslim in Islam and think it is going to fail to reach what its intended place is:
    “He it is, Who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion. And Allah suffices as a Witness.” (48:28)

    Only Allah swt makes claims like that and throws down the challenge for people to try and stop it and prove it wrong. The challenge was thrown in a small city of date palms surrounded by craggy lava tracts 14 centuries ago in some pocket in the desert…and…

    So…Islam will simply keep moving at a pace, it may be a slow pace or a fast pace, but it keeps moving. Muslims are not “the chosen ones” – that’s someone else’s thing. We Muslims are quite replaceable as evidenced by the verses I cited and by the fact that when “brown” ones leave, they’ll readily be replaced by “white” ones. The One Who designed the game already said what the first rule is:
    “Allah has decreed: ‘I will most certainly prevail*, I and My messengers.’ Surely Allah is All-Powerful All-Mighty.” (58:21)

    So this is all just a matter of built-in belief…comes with the whole Islam package, not much one can do about it. I mean, what are we going to say; “Yeah, we believe that God says in His revelation that He wins and His religion triumphs, but we think otherwise”…?

    Those in Turkey who imbibe secular-liberal values will simply go that route and will be replaced by others. There is no magic protecting Muslims who imbibe the Koolaid. The fact that a pendulum is swinging 10-15% this way or that way within a few decades in a place like Turkey given its history is not surprising at all. I’d like to know what thinks look like in another 10-15 years. Will we see secular Turks getting replaced by more religious Kurds and immigrant Syrians? Maybe…again, let’s see which turns this train takes in the future.

    I mean, heck, I can even see Muslims getting walloped (yet again – think brutal Mongol horde style) and overwhelmed by a combined European and East Asian invasion to just wipe out the Muslims and take their resources and – as usual – it’ll proceed for a while until it doesn’t and then, lo and behold – a few decades or centuries later; “What the hell, they’re standing up again after that last beat down!”

    Peace.

    *The verb form here is the most emphatic form – as in, assuredly-without-a-single-doubt.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  262. @Colin Wright

    I have no need to demonstrate than I’m a better lover than the man who just broke into my house. I’ll just shoot him.

    It’s hard to imagine anyone reading your cucky, evasive apologetics for lslamo-garbage on this thread believes you.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  263. @Colin Wright

    Why should I have a negative view of it? It’s commanded the loyalty of a fifth of mankind for over a thousand years. It’s highly unlikely to be a negative.

    If you wanted to salvage any shred of intellectual respectability, you should have stopped digging twenty posts ago. As it is, what the hell, go for broke.

  264. @Colin Wright

    Here, my particular bete noir (pun not intended) are American blacks. They’re a horror.

    Strange as it seems, not everybody agrees with this assessment. To change their minds, you’ll have to provide arguments. You might have to “sound like a meanie.” In substance, this is no different to demonstrating Islam’s incompatibility with either European identity or liberal norms.

  265. @Hyperborean

    ‘The ratio stood at 60.5 percent for AKP voters and 82.1 for CHP voters.

    When the same question was asked by replacing Saudi Arabia with North Korea, 64.3 of the youth once again chose Switzerland.’

    You’re serious?

    The choice is between a waterless desert, North Korea, and Switzerland. You see Switzerland winning as demonstrating something?

  266. @German_reader

    ‘…However none of this changes the fact that Muslims in general are highly undesirable as immigrants and cause manifold problems…’

    We are indeed going in circles. I think Christians from similarly alien cultures would also cause problems. They do.

    ‘…I also notice that you haven’t reacted to Talha’s quote I linked to which clearly demonstrates his approval of an Islamic system with very harsh punishments for religious offenses…’

    First off, that misstates what Talha said. Secondly, I wasn’t aware we were discussing whether Germany should welcome Talha as an immigrant.

    ‘…presumably because it doesn’t fit your “Muslims are always just like you and me” views…’

    Sigh. I never said that either. You may require that I said it so that you will have an argument — but I didn’t say it.

    This is pathetic. You don’t want immigrants. That’s fine — but for some reason you feel you need to demonstrate the immigrants are inherently and necessarily evil to justify excluding them.

    You don’t. In fact, it’s a fatal mistake to think that you do. The Third World is chock-full of perfectly nice people who will proceed to make Germany a perfect hellhole if you let all of them move in.

    A far better argument is ‘yes, you’re very nice, and very deserving. You still can’t move into my house.’

    • Replies: @Talha
  267. Metropole says:

    I’m been getting most of my news from alternative media sites for the last 19 year–ever since 9/11 when I realized that the mainstream media is little more than a propaganda machine. In that time I’ve seen even most of the alternative media sell out to the powers-that-be. One common ground both types of media had, and mostly still have, is a hostility to Islam. It has been hard, or impossible, to put forward a Muslim point of view without getting cursed out or outright banned. Therefore it was a pleasant surprise to read a civil discussion on Islam on Unz.

    The original article was about Muslims in France and their inability to assimilate. To help you figure that out I’ll tell you about my own experience as a Muslim who has lived in the UK, US and Canada and why I remain a Muslim. It’s not very complicated.

    People who immigrate to the West are doing so to improve their lives and those of their families. Most Muslim countries are ruled by corrupt rulers bordering on criminal. There is a lack of education and health, little or no scientific or technological development, economies are stagnant, little or no justice, to get anything done you have to bribe a long line of officials. Out of 57 Muslim countries a few are doing okay, but most are not. Many previously well functioning countries have been bombed into the stone age in the war on terrorism. No Muslim country is left in peace unless it capitulates to a certain entity planted in their midst.

    So that brings yours truly to the West to seek a better life. I see a land of milk and honey. People obey traffic laws. Streets are clean. There are excellent health and education facilities. There is law and order. Good looking, intelligent, nicely dressed people. Relatively honest politicians, judges and bureaucrats. Nice museums, art galleries and great architecture. It is possible to get a job or start a business, buy a house, raise a family. In my case I partake of the Western dream with gusto. It is all good.

    Except…

    Some things are wrong. My two sons were born and raised in the West. I did not impose any excessive restrictions on them. They went to good schools and had all material benefits. But what happened to them? Society sucked them into drugs, alcohol, partying etc. If time could be reversed I would raise them with a much more restrictive Muslim upbringing. Families that I know who were very strict and more religious have their kids in top universities.

    The problem is that the rampant hedonism of Western societies is dragging them down. An immigrant who come here wants to progress in life, not regress. He appreciates the good things that are offered to him and rejects the bad. He does not want to move from belief in God to disbelief. He does not want his son to turn gay and his daughter to be passed around from man to man. He does not want to socialize when socializing means drinking till you pass out.

    Many second or third generation Muslims lose their religion and fully integrate into society. In that case, being dark, they attain the same status as Mexicans who, despite being Christian, are little more than second-class citizens. You throw away your religion and the chance of heaven for a little worldly gain. Not a very good bargain.

    When the West was Christian, like in Victorian times, a Muslim may have adapted better. But in today’s post-Christian society it is a lot harder.

    Like Talha, I do not advocate for, or recommend, more Muslim immigration. Some days I wish that my own country was not such a shithole, in which case I could have stayed there or gone back. The best way to keeps Muslims away would be to help Muslim countries improve their quality of life. If you can’t, or don’t want to, help them then at least stop bombing them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
    , @Talha
  268. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    First off, that misstates what Talha said.

    Correct. If anybody is seriously following what I have been saying in my arguments, then it should be clear that the school I follow is quite flexible in its punishment for blasphemy. Thus each Muslim people or nation has the choice to decide as they like. When I was discussing Pakistan, I’m 100% fine with them electing to go the more harsh route such as flogging and long terms of imprisonemnt and the like. That’s their land and their prerogative and I don’t live there anymore, so for me to tell them what they shouldn’t be doing (in order to make myself look good to Westerners) is about as “house negro” as one can get.

    As far as punishment for blasphemy in the West. Surprise! It’s already here! As I cited the US governments assessment of very active anti-blasphemy laws in plenty of European nations, with punishments ranging from fines to public service to imprisonment, etc. And this is the most likely scenario that I could see happening in a place like the US if it ever went majority-Muslim (maj-muzz…?). My words were:
    “I would personally have no problems with instituting a law against blasphemy. Not anything like execution and such; the school I follow is fairly flexible on the issue – financial penalties will do the job just fine, imprisonment for repeat offenders, etc. ”

    Nothing that seems out of the ordinary given the similar punishments by various other countries around the world for the crime. I found the law of Thailand interesting, because – unlike others – it singles out Buddhism as the religion that is sacrosanct. Not surprising given its place in the country’s constitution:
    “Section 7

    The King is a Buddhist and Upholder of religions.

    Section 67

    The State should support and protect Buddhism and other religions.

    In supporting and protecting Buddhism, which is the religion observed by the majority of Thai people for a long period of time, the State should promote and support education and dissemination of dharmic principles of Theravada Buddhism for the development of mind and wisdom development, and shall have measures and mechanisms to prevent Buddhism from being undermined in any form. The State should also encourage Buddhists to participate in implementing such measures or mechanisms.”
    https://constituteproject.org/constitution/Thailand_2017?lang=en

    Secondly, I wasn’t aware we were discussing whether Germany should welcome Talha as an immigrant.

    I’m good. USA! USA! USA!

    To be serious, if I even mentioned moving to Germany, I would get a stare down from my Swedish in-laws. Those guys still don’t like Germany; a resentment which they passed on to my wife for some reason. Every time Germany comes up, she talks about how her mom couldn’t see her dad for years because he was out with the Swedish navy on patrol. I easily like Germany more than they do (they give me funny looks if I support Germany in a sporting event)…which is weird because they are actually Germans who settled in Sweden a while back.

    Go figure.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  269. @Colin Wright

    Endless blathering apologetics for these medieval savages just get your ticket to Mogadishu or Karachi and get on with it, recite the Shahada it might save you from starring in an internet surgery video.

  270. @Talha

    “Allah has decreed: ‘I will most certainly prevail*, I and My messengers.’ Surely Allah is All-Powerful All-Mighty.” (58:21)

    You won’t prevail Talha, you had Hindustan for a millennium and yet you didn’t manage to convert us, oh there are another billion plus Han( a mighty people whose dictator explicitly said that their goal was to Sinicize Islam) who are putting your pious savages in concentration camps and a plus point sterilizing your women, African Christians don’t turn the other cheek nor will the Russian Orthodox, the game’s up we won’t allow your medieval rubbish to prevail. I add American Evangelicals to the list of people resisting your medieval Bedouin Cult.

    • Agree: silviosilver
    • Replies: @Talha
  271. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:

    Just why has a thread about urgent European politics has been derailed into an historical exegesis of late Byzantine history?
    Byzantine history is all well and good, but can hardly help us in the ongoing EU establishment’s mission and ambition to extirpate the white race.

    It is akin to counting the pimples on Kim Kardashian’s arse whilst your house is burning down.

  272. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    No.

    Honesty and simplicity are the two keys to winning over public opinion.
    In general, people don’t like to be deceived and cheated with sophistry and impotence.

    Martin Luther, and more recently Nigel Farage, overcame enormous , and on the face of it insuperable hurdles, with little more than their own vocal chords as weapons, and changed the fates of entire kingdoms and empires.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  273. @silviosilver

    “Did the Spaniards sustain a centuries-long struggle against the Visigoths? Yes or no?”
    The Visigothic conquest of Spain was at it’s core a elite replacement. At first their likely were animus from the Hispano-Romans directed against the Visigoths. Similar to how the Anglo-Saxon nobility would have percieved the Norman incomers. Like the Normans in England, the Visigoths assimilated quickly into a new Romanised Hispanic identity, with some Gothic influence.

    Though the Visigoths seem to have acculturated quicker than the Normans did in England. By the time of Islamic conquest there was probably little that seperated the descendants of Visigoths from the rest of the population. Presumably, most of the Goths descendants were also descended from the original Hispano-Roman population.

    After the initial shock of Visigothic conquest, most Hispano-Romans seem to have accepted the new regime. Many playing a decisive role in the Visigothic administration.

  274. Bonner Tal says: • Website

    For what it’s worth, I analyzed the INSEE-prenom-data quite a while ago. Recently, I took another look and it seemed to me that the percentage of muslim names had stopped growing after 2015, while the percentage of prenom_rare keeps going through the roof.

    https://halfassed.science.blog/2020/02/14/demographic-change-in-france-prenoms-rare

    Maybe my list of muslim names is too short and unrepresentative, though it showed the doubling between 2000 and 2015 well enough.

  275. Anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:
    @Metropole

    What utter utter shit!!!!

    The same whine whine whine attitude we get all the time. You drive a truck into as crowd of civilians and then call yourself a ‘victim’ it’s that nasty, semitic type of selfish arrogance which makes people sick.

    You blame your poor parenting skills on white people.

    Fuck Off you ungrateful leech. Go back home and live in the societies you and yours have created.

    But you won’t.

    You will kick, scream, whine, whine take the kuffar’s money – and then spit in the kuffar’s face.

    The trouble is that all you black bastards think like that – it’s engrained in you.

    Your integrity and honesty is as piss poor as your parenting.

  276. German_reader says:
    @Talha

    Every time Germany comes up, she talks about how her mom couldn’t see her dad for years because he was out with the Swedish navy on patrol.

    LOL. Still sore at Germany after almost 80 years, and not because of “They killed millions of my countrymen” like Poles and Russians can say, but because of some relatively minor inconvenience…but they’re totally fine with their daughter marrying not just outside of her race, but also adopting a completely alien religion and lifestyle. “Sweden yes!” confirmed once again.

    • Replies: @Talha
  277. German_reader says:
    @Anonymous

    and more recently Nigel Farage

    Bad example, the Brexit campaign shows what a mistake it is to attack mass immigration by proxy and pretend Poles are just as bad as Pakis as immigrants (or actually even worse because of “muh Commonwealth”). Brexit has done nothing to slow, let alone reverse, Britain’s ethno-cultural transformation, instead it might even accelerate it. Only thing it will achieve is economic trouble for Britain and even greater dependence on the US.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  278. Anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:
    @Metropole

    It is the black hearts – just as much as the black faces – of the third world trash that *INSISTS* upon *IMPOSING* itself on Europe which is so objectionable.

    Europeans never wanted you to come.
    Europeans have never accepted you.
    Europeans will *NEVER* accept you.

    The shitcunt political class which corruptly rules Europe is the only thing standing between you and your richly deserved expulsion.

    The way to eliminate bilharzia is to stamp on the snails (politicians). The liver flukes (darkies) then follow.

    • Replies: @Metropole
  279. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    LOL. Still sore at Germany after almost 80 years

    Yeah – exactly. I don’t get it.

    but they’re totally fine with their daughter marrying not just outside of her race, but also adopting a completely alien religion and lifestyle.

    Not just one, but her younger sister also converted and married a great Egyptian brother. My mother in law was apprehensive at first, but she loves both of us. We always have wonderful conversations. My Egyptian brother in law lives close by them and is constantly helping them out as the grow older, so they appreciate that too.

    The one son in law they didn’t like was…wait for it…the white agnostic guy, Sean, who married her older sister and promptly cheated on her within the first couple years of marriage. She tried relationships with multiple non-Muslim white guys, but no luck. She is now middle-aged, divorced, no kids and her parents have to switch time being with her because she has been suicidal since the Covid lock down.

    So the guy from the same race and lifestyle screwed up their daughter’s life.

    “Sweden yes!”

    Go Sweden!

    Peace.

  280. Talha says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    You won’t prevail Talha

    Of course not; I’m just an almost 45 year old, 5′ 6″ guy that is still having a tough time prevailing with his goals to get back to a nice lean 145 lb. Fortunately, I’m not the One that has put forth the challenge:
    “They seek to extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah shall complete His light, howsoever the unbelievers may abhor this. He it is, who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.” (61:8-9)

    you had Hindustan for a millennium and yet you didn’t manage to convert us

    Plenty did and plenty still do so. As a religion, it is still quite vibrant in India…many Hindus still visit the graves of the various Sufi-saints, like my own ancestor who came from the Kirman province in Persia and helped to convert many of the locals. Even in the US, I’ve come across converts from Hinduism; my wife (who runs our local mosque’s convert-care program) received a call a couple of years ago from a Hindu lady that wanted to convert. One of your most famous film score producers (A. R. Rahman) is a convert from Hinduism to Islam and there is still Sufi-inspired music in major Hindi films:

    One of my very early teachers in the Hanafi school was young mufti who is the son of a Hindu lady who converted to Islam. Happens to be a black belt in BJJ too -mashaAllah, this is him meeting with Khabib:

    Islam as a political enterprise in that area took a massive hit, but that’s only one perspective by which to look at the

    I add American Evangelicals to the list of people resisting your medieval Bedouin Cult.

    Why did you forget the Zionists? Hindutva guys are always going on about:
    “Yes sir, we love Israel, we are with you. Bless you sir!”

    No matter…I already assume Team Lahabism is fully ready to give us no quarter; gleefully advocating concentration camps, forced sterilization, or even wholesale extermination and the like is totally assumed to be part of your play book all the while calling us “medieval-cult bedouin savages”.

    Go for it – give your best shot at defeating Islam. Let’s see how this plays out.

    Peace.

  281. Talha says:
    @Metropole

    When the West was Christian, like in Victorian times, a Muslim may have adapted better. But in today’s post-Christian society it is a lot harder.

    This is the catch-22, bro. When it was seriously Christian, Europe would never have let in a bunch of Muslims…they would have Deus Vult’ed us out of there.

    The post-Christian precedent had to be set up first before they would even think of letting Muslims in.

    The best way to keeps Muslims away would be to help Muslim countries improve their quality of life.

    Not their responsibility, that’s on us.

    at least stop bombing them.

    Yeah – now that seems reasonable.

    Wa salaam.

  282. Anonymous[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    No.

    Nigel ‘spoke truth to power’ – the EU is a corrupted pile of anti white shit, is economically stagnant, costs Britain billions upon billions of pounds, foists uncontrolled immigration on Britain, is a dictatorship run by anti white CUNTS like Verhofstadt, Timmermans, Bonino, Malmstrom, Borel etc – IS A REAL TRUE UNDEMOCRATIC TYRANNY – abrogates UK independence, sovereignty, democracy etc etc – and won.

  283. Metropole says:
    @Anonymous

    Europeans never wanted you to come.
    Europeans have never accepted you.
    Europeans will *NEVER* accept you.

    I’m sorry but the reality is that Europeans want Muslims, that’s why they’re there. The majority voted for politicians who make the policy. If Europe can have large enough armies to attack countries on the other side of the world then they can certainly prevent Muslims from coming to their countries. As far as I know Muslims haven’t arrived on the back of tanks or parachuted from military aircraft. The vast bulk of them are there as legal immigrants. Even refugees or illegal immigrants can be sent back if they’re not wanted.

    If you claim to be democracies then you can always change the laws on immigration. But the majority of Europeans or Americans elect politicians who keep the doors wide open. Maybe they know something that the average person does not.

    The aging of Europe, also known as the greying of Europe, is a demographic phenomenon in Europe characterized by a decrease in fertility, a decrease in mortality rate, and a higher life expectancy among European populations. Low birth rates and higher life expectancy contribute to the transformation of Europe’s population pyramid shape. The most significant change is the transition towards a much older population structure, resulting in a decrease in the proportion of the working age while the number of the retired population increases. The total number of the older population is projected to increase greatly within the coming decades, with rising proportions of the post-war baby-boom generations reaching retirement. This will cause a high burden on the working age population as they provide for the increasing number of the older population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing_of_Europe

    You’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. No immigration and the cost of maintaining old people will overwhelm you. With immigration you see darkies prowling your streets. What do you do?

    The solution is to cut down on boozing and drugs, stop philandering, tame your women, marry them and have lots of kids. Then there will be enough kids to sustain society and immigrants won’t be needed.

    Unfortunately it’s a lot easier to demonize politicians or immigrants than it is to fix your own behavior.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  284. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Metropole

    You lying bastard.

  285. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Metropole

    By the sounds of things, you can’t even control your *own* children, and now you fucking lecture me.
    All of you people are dirty fucking hypocrites, cheats, liars, cowards, snakes, serpents.

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