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Why Does Netanyahu Keep Winning?
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A few days ahead of the previous Israeli election, Haaretz’s lead writer Anshel Pfeffer, authored a spectacular analysis of Israel’s current political deadlock: Israelis are going to the polls to decide whether they are ‘Jews’ or ‘Israelis.’

The first to point out the political rivalry between ‘the Jew’and ‘the Israeli’ was Shimon Peres who, after his narrow 1996 defeat, lamented in a Haaretz interview that “the Israelis lost the election.” When Peres asked who won, he answered, “The Jews won.” Peres, who was born in Poland, saw himself as the ‘Israeli’ candidate, Netanyahu, who was born in Israel and served as a commander in the IDF’s top unit, was in Peres’ eyes, the political choice of the ‘Jews.’ Peres’s observation was spot on. Politically astute and well imbued in early Zionist thought, Peres identified the emerging Identitarian conflict that was destined to break up Israeli society.

Pfeffer pointed out that in the 1990s Netanyahu was influenced by his American campaign guru, Arthur Finkelstein, to accept that “Jewishness” is the primary unifier for Israelis. This clearly applies to religious Jews but it is also true of those who regard themselves as secular and/or leftist.

While early Zionism can be understood as an uncompromising attempt to divorce the Jews from Jewishness, the ghetto and tribalism to make them “people like all other people,” the Israeli Right/Religious political call is openly driven by a nostalgic adherence to the myths of the shtetl and its walls, segregation and every other aspect of Jewish tribalism, chauvinism included. As bizarre as it may sound, Netanyahu’s transformation of Israel into a Jewish ghetto surrounded by walls and defined by a ‘Jewish National Bill’ makes him, by early Zionist standards, into an ardent anti Zionist.

According to Pfeffer, when Netanyahu returned to power in 2009 and formed a right-wing/ religious coalition, “the Jews prevailed” and have done so ever since.

On Monday, Netanyahu won a significant political and personal victory. He earned the votes of the people despite his complicated legal situation and some would even say, because of his legal complications. In this rivalry between the ‘Israeli’ and the ‘Jew,’ the ‘Israeli’ is beaten time after time and the ‘Jew’ consistently prevails.

The ‘Jews,’ as Shimon Peres referred to them, see in Netanyahu a clear path towards a true spiritual homecoming. Being Likudnics can be realised as a true celebration of who and what they truly are. The ‘Israelis,’ on the other hand, were hoping for Gantz and Kachol Lavan to revive the early Zionist promise to be emancipated from what they are and to finally become people like all other Goyim whether this means nationalist patriots or cosmopolitan pacifist.

ORDER IT NOW

The demography of the ‘Jewish’ camp and its ‘Israeli’ rival is pretty much separated. Netanyahu is largely supported by Mizrahi Jews and the Israeli Religious sectors (the orthodox and settlers). Gantz and Kachol Lavan have managed to ignite the imagination of the old elites: the Ashkenazi and educated Israelis. The ‘Jews,’ as Peres referred to them, love Bibi because he manipulates the Goyim. He reduced America into an Israeli colony and practically a ‘side in the conflict’ (as opposed to an impartial negotiator). They are proud of their Bibi and his ability to puppeteer world leaders. He bonds with the Diaspora and the Lobby, he also manages to keep American taxpayers’ dollars flowing. Bibi, as far as they can tell, is the best thing that happened in modern Jewish history.

The ‘Israelis’ vote Kachol Lavan because they don’t like Netanyahu, they can’t stand the idea that his voters and they are considered ‘one people.’ The ‘Israeli’ shares little with the religious sectors, the settlers and even less with the ‘Jews’ who live in the periphery. The ‘Israeli’ would like Netanyahu to be locked up behind bars and subliminally hope that his voters will evaporate into thin air. Kachol Lavan is not a centre party. Its vision of the conflict is actually to the right of the Likud party and its vision of social matters is vague to non-existent. It is more likely that its leaders, veteran IDF Generals, evoke amongst the ‘Israelis’ nostalgic memories of 1967: an Ashkenazi ruled state, committed to the Zionist mantra of the rejection of Jewishness.

But the ‘Israeli’ was defeated again on Monday. Nostalgia for the most heroic moment in Israeli history didn’t seem to mature into the necessary revolution and Gantz may have finished his political role. It is likely that Kachol Lavan will disintegrate into its elements in the coming weeks.

The phantasy of becoming ‘people like all other people’ has collapsed for two obvious reasons: 1. no other people want to be like all other people. 2. The ‘Israeli’ is far more Jewish than he or she is willing to admit.

Arthur Finkelstein figured it out in the 1990s and Netanyahu continues to follow his campaign mentor, refining his political agenda in line with Judeo-centrism. In the state that calls itself the ‘Jewish State,’ the ‘Israeli’ is gradually becoming rare, he has been supplanted by ‘the Jew.’

(Republished from Gilad Atzmon by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel, Jews, Zionism 
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  1. So what exactly is the difference between an ‘Israeli’ and a ‘Jew’? The types of people who support Gantz want to be ‘Israeli’, but what exactly does that mean, surely the status of being an Israeli is determined by ones Jewishness?

    You also talk of the Ashkenazic being against Netanyahu, a factoid I found quite surprising, isn’t this the group of Jews who are most ethnocentric and most cunning? Why wouldn’t they want a Jewish Supremacist State and instead an Israeli State?

  2. them just need a nice wall through the country
    then they can jew in one half
    and israelite in the other
    and demonstrate twice the jews and israelites can’t create
    can’t male

  3. Svevlad says:

    Israel is about to become some Memri TV tier meme state. I watched some show/interview with some guy. He makes a good point, but the style and everything is straight out of the bottom tier Arabian meme shows. Guess you can’t escape destiny heh

    • LOL: Tusk
    • Replies: @Ark
  4. The differentiation between “Jew” and “Israeli” is a necessary dialectic to exist in order to massage the desired outcome into existence.

    • Agree: Pop Warner
    • Replies: @DaveE
  5. it’s obvious Y:

    most of the ashkenaz occupying Palestine are aggressive, racial nationalist Jews.

    Netanyahu is an aggressive racial nationalist Jew. And

    makes everyone from Drumpf to Putin

    grovel at his feet.

  6. AaronB says:

    I’m not sure I understand your logic.

    In order for the Zionist project to be a success, the Israeli would have to divest himself of his Jewish identity and roots. This way, he can take his place among the nation of the world….who are all characterized by having an identity and roots.

    This sounds like very confused logic.

  7. @AaronB

    ‘… This way, he can take his place among the nation of the world….who are all characterized by having an identity and roots…’

    Yeah — but Galicia’s already taken.

    So…

    • Replies: @AaronB
  8. This article is so outdated I do not have to comment. Even the goyin puppet master chive is over.

    The ‘Jews,’ as Peres referred to them, love Bibi because he manipulates the Goyim. He reduced America into an Israeli colony and practically a ‘side in the conflict’ (as opposed to an impartial negotiator). They are proud of their Bibi and his ability to puppeteer world leaders.

    • Replies: @Yarkob
  9. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Ok, I get your point of view. You think Jews have no claim to the land. No problem.

    But I don’t get why Atzmon says Zionism was about making Jews lose their roots and identity. And I doubly don’t get why he says that would make them a nation. The Zionists made Jewish roots and identity a big part of their project from the beginning. And obviously you need roots and an identity to be a nation.

    I also don’t see why he says Zionism failed in its aims because Israel is in a state of conflict. Pretty much everyone in that region is fighting each other – its not Europe – and the Zionists expected conflict.

    None of this makes any sense.

    Now Atzmon may have a point here, I just don’t know what it is really. What I understand him to be saying is incoherent.

    And I have no problem with Atzmon thinking Zionism failed – to each his own opinion. I just don’t think I’ve understood his criteria.

    For my part, I think Zionism was a big success, and was about –

    1) Jews physically defending themselves 2) Jews living in their own country without persecution 3) Jews reconnecting to their physical side, through farming, the military, and generally living more physically than they did in Europe 3) Jews becoming confident 4) Jews being independent in their ancestral land 5) Jews being independent in their sacred land, central to their religion 6) Jews living in their ancestral sacred land in large numbers.

    Seems

  10. melpol says:

    Real Jews live in East and West coast USA. Israelis are a concoction of former palestinians, Arab Jews, Ashkenazim confusniks, and assorted Jewish hybrids. It is best to put them all into one pot and mix them up. Inter- racial marriage will produce a new and strange breed of Israeli.

  11. A123 says:

    Among the most ardent original arrivals were the pure socialists. (1)

    Kibbutz, (Hebrew: “gathering” or “collective”)plural kibbutzim, also spelled qibbutz, Israeli collective settlement, usually agricultural and often also industrial, in which all wealth is held in common. Profits are reinvested in the settlement after members have been provided with food, clothing, and shelter and with social and medical services. Adults have private quarters, but children are generally housed and cared for as a group. Cooking and dining are in common.

    Members of the Kibbutz were of Jewish lineage. However, how does a group have a Rabbi as “religious leader” in a structure where “everyone is equal, so there are no leaders”? The practices of the Jewish religion became secondary, leading to what the author is describing as non-practicing “Zionist Israelis”.

    While this may have sounded good in the abstract, pure socialism is inconsistent with the type of command & control needed for National Security. The ongoing violence directed at Jewish civilians drove the population to hierarchical nationalism, which also supported the traditional religion. Rabbis and Generals are voices of authority and order, so the institutions have synergy with each other.

    “Jewish Nationalism” has become the necessary and inevitable backbone needed for Israel to survive foreign threats.
    _____

    The issue has similarities to the U.S. today.

    Hollywood/J-Street far left thinkers do not accept the authority of Rabbis, even though their lineage contains Jewish genes. They have drifted away from (or actively repudited) the Jewish traditions and faith of their forebearers.

    Without an external threat, there is nothing to lead them back into the fold. This is why “Anti-Jewish” individuals of Jewish descent can advocate self destructive beliefs.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.britannica.com/topic/kibbutz

  12. Art says:
    @Just passing through

    So what exactly is the difference between an ‘Israeli’ and a ‘Jew’?

    Early on, Israel was called a Zionist project. Now Israel is called the “Jewish” state.

    Being an Israeli is a geographic thing – it means that you are tied and wedded to the physical homeland. A physical homeland is what the original Zionists wanted.

    Being a “Jew” is a tribal thing – irrespective of location. “Jew power” is based on the manipulation of gentile homelands.

    Netanyahu (and his voters) are tied to the Western Jew oligarch money – the oligarchs are the true power of the Jew tribe. Jew greed is their source of power. It is Western Jew money that keeps the Israeli homeland in bagels.

    • Agree: Z-man
  13. DaveE says:
    @USA Invades Israel

    Well said. Gilad seems to think of the Israeli as fundamentally different than the Jew. I see “the Israeli” as nothing but a disguise to sell the Jew (and its so-called “country”) to the outside world.

    Unfortunately, it worked.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  14. @Art

    ‘… Being an Israeli is a geographic thing – it means that you are tied and wedded to the physical homeland. A physical homeland is what the original Zionists wanted.

    Being a “Jew” is a tribal thing – irrespective of location. “Jew power” is based on the manipulation of gentile homelands…

    There’s a decided irony in the fact that for most of history, ‘Israel’ was an ethnic, not a geographic, term.

    Yes, there was a semi-historical and problematically Jewish statelet that briefly existed in Galilee or some such place in the eighth century BC, but most of the time

    Well, Philo of Alexandria quite comfortably saw himself as part of Israel, for example. There was no need to pull up sticks and move to to Palestine to make that happen.

    It was never about the geography — not until 1948.

  15. @AaronB

    ‘For my part, I think Zionism was a big success…’

    Zionism kept Ashkenazi Holocaust survivors from being relocated to the United States and the British Commonwealth countries. It stripped the Arab states of their Jewish populations.

    In the place of this, it substituted as a ‘home,’ a strip of semi-desert, in which the Jews live as endlessly quarreling and hated occupiers, requiring a perpetual (and massive) subsidy.

    If you insist on defining that as a ‘success,’ I can’t stop you.

    However, I will note that having gotten out, you’re still not such a fool as to have moved back there.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Wally
  16. Skeptikal says:
    @AaronB

    I thought Gilad made it pretty clear.

    AT least, if I understand him correctly.

    summary: “Israeli” refers to political Judaism, or Zionism. “Jewish” refers to the Jewish religion and all the rigamarole that goes with that, including the Holocaust portion of the religion.

    The Zionist project originally was premised on the idea of sidelining religious Jewishness. Jews should not run around with sidelocks and black gowns, etc., spouting talmudic lore, but should conduct themselves like any other normal citizens.
    It was secular. Jabotinsky’s idea of political Reform Zionism was about the politics of setting up a new country for Jews. It was not about romanticizing the Jewish trauma and the shtetl. Maybe because in that era the shtetl, and the shtetl mentality, was so close as to clearly something to get OUT of ASAP. but not about the practice of the Jewish religion or even belief in Yahweh, etc. Thus, “Isreali” refers to the political aspect of Zionism. This politicized Judaism was what many assimilated Jews in, say, Germany abhorred and felt would in the end cause nothing but trouble for them. An American historian who wrote about this at the time was Morris Jastrow.

    Now the religious element has come back to the fore. This is the *Jewish* element.
    It is eclipsing the original political Judaism/Zionism.

  17. Skeptikal says:
    @Skeptikal

    re Jastrow, see

    • Thanks: Kali
  18. Skeptikal says:
    @Colin Wright

    “In the place of this, it substituted as a ‘home,’ a strip of semi-desert, in which the Jews live as endlessly quarreling and hated occupiers, requiring a perpetual (and massive) subsidy”

    This is something I don’t get.
    Israel is massively subsidized by the diaspora and also by the US govt, and probably also by other govts, and I expect by lots of NGOs of different sorts.

    Yet there are world-dominating industries in Israel that must bring in huge profits.

    For example, IT, intelligence, religious and other tourism, computer-related stuff, biotechnology, fashion, food products, defense research and technology, and others.

    Why does Israel need subsidies?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @BDS Always
  19. Political Jews and Israelis have in common that they are hostis humani generis. The fundamental difference is that political Jews are genocidaires while Israelis are exterminators. The choice of crime determines conduct and ideology.

    AHED AL TAMIMI et al. lay it out to forensic standards.

    https://www.commondreams.org/sites/default/files/lawsuit.pdf

    The international laughingstock that is the DC District Court will do as its CIA controllers say and reject this open-and-shut case to preserve CIA impunity. [This case recalls the circuit’s historic debasement in 859 F.2d 929 (D.C. Cir. 1988)] The court’s legal pretexts for impunity will formally establish the US as unwilling or unable to prosecute grave crimes. This invokes complementarity, and Jew State criminals become fair game for prosecution worldwide. US conduct provides legal justification for coercion to peace as a countermeasure.

    This case will establish the common interests of the CIA and their Jewish supremacist agents inside and outside the US. There’s no dual loyalty here, no loyalty at all – only the omerta of mafiya states. With this case the outside world frees Americans from the criminal enterprise that controls them.

  20. So Netanyahu is back behind the desk. Pelosi, Trump, Putin and many others will be enjoying the helping hands of Binyamin and his gang of Sabbateans once again.

    • Agree: Johnny Walker Read
  21. AaronB says:
    @Skeptikal

    It doesn’t need subsidies. It’s about 1% of Israel’s GDP, obviously not crucial. Israel has a higher per capita income than Britain and it’s economy is thriving, esp the tech sector.

    At this point, it is largely symbolic – a symbol of America’s relationship to Israel. Also most of the money is required to be spent on American defense contractors, so it’s also a subsidy for the defense industry, who at this point want it maintained.

    That being said, its significantly less than the cost of keeping troops and bases in Europe, Japan, South Korea, etc – it’s chump change compared to that, and those countries are also quite rich and should easily be able to shoulder their own defense burden.

    In the end America gains influence this way in all these regions – sure, SK is rich enough to defend itself. It doesn’t need American troops. But then America is less able to affect things in that region. Sure, three billion to Israel is hardly crucial, but America gains a bit of influence and control there. Etc.

    Its politics and symbolism.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Skeptikal
  22. @Just passing through

    Not a lot,,,, it is a matter of identification, it replaced the left/right binary and Ashkenazi/Mizrahi split…

  23. AaronB says:
    @Skeptikal

    Yes, in important ways Zionism was supposed to make a clean break with the trauma endured in Europe and to get rid of the negative character traits developed in Europe under that persecution, like an inability to physically defend themselves and over reliance on certain professions like finance, etc.

    A new, confident, and physically capable Jew was supposed to be created. In that sense the Jew was going to become “normal” like the other nations – no longer existing in an artificial state disconnected from the body and living entirely in the brain.

    In this way, Zionism obviously succeeded very well.

    But it was always about Judaism and Jewish tradition, it just sought to anchor it more in the heroic Bible and to distance itself from the type of Jewish culture developed in the European shtetl. But Judaism and Jewishness were and are central to Zionism.

  24. @DaveE

    If you read the article to the end I actually say the opposite,,, the Israeli is a Jew at the end of the day, this is why the Israeli is beaten by the authentic Jew and Netanyahu wins,,,

    • Replies: @DaveE
    , @Vaterland
  25. @AaronB

    Maybe you should read AD Gordon, Nordau , Boruchov and Herzl and inform yourself about Zionism then we can discuss this further. Zionism promised to civilize the Jews by means of homecoming. For the first Israelis diaspora Jews were part of a rotten forgotten past. Israeli native Jews used to call themselves Sabra after the prickly pear fruit— it is rough inside but sweet inside as opposed to their view of the diaspora Jew who they saw as rotten inside however well mannered …

  26. @AaronB

    ‘It doesn’t need subsidies. It’s about 1% of Israel’s GDP, obviously not crucial. Israel has a higher per capita income than Britain and it’s economy is thriving, esp the tech sector.

    ‘At this point, it is largely symbolic – a symbol of America’s relationship to Israel…’

    We’ve been over this before too.

    You’re willfully distorting the facts — but it doesn’t matter.

    However much you may dislike the fact, Israel is utterly dependent on America’s support, approval, and protection. If we ever pull the plug, Israel will be gone within a decade.

    Denying that won’t change it.

    • Agree: renfro
    • Replies: @Amerimutt Golems
  27. @Skeptikal

    It is not about religion but the content and meaning the Jew attribute to the J identity, culture and religion. The early a zionists were in full agreement with the so called Antisemites. They agreed that Jews are different and must be taken away to a new place where they can bond with soil and develop proletarian tendencies…I actually argue that not much is left out of this Zionist promised . BIBI wins because the Israeli has evaporated…Israel is now a very big shtetl…

    • Agree: renfro
  28. @AaronB

    ‘Yes, in important ways Zionism was supposed to make a clean break with the trauma endured in Europe and to get rid of the negative character traits developed in Europe under that persecution, like an inability to physically defend themselves and over reliance on certain professions like finance, etc…’

    There’s a certain morbid humor in realizing, then, that Israel has gotten the US to fight her wars for her and is currently trying to get her to fight another — and in realizing that one of Israel’s major sources of income has been international financial fraud.

    Learned to defend yourselves and got away from finance, did you?

    • Replies: @Pheasant
  29. @AaronB

    It is not ‘my logic’ as I didn’t invent the Zionist ideology or movement ,, similarly the dichotomy between the Israeli and the Jew isn’t my invention either as I make clear in the article, … Zionism in its early stage was repulsed by Jewish diaspora culture. It accepted the anti Semitic view of the Jew as a capitalist, non proletarian character… Early Zionists and especially second Aliya ideologists basically reinvented the notion of Jewish identity. They replaced yiddishkeit with Neo Biblical enthusiasm… they basically preached for Jewish national socialism, they sustained some Jewish elements such as choseness or exceptionalism however were devoted to Labour as a prime value and the idea of building a new nation from scratch…it was this vision of Zionism that led to the formation of israel and and also responsible for Israeli military successes in 56, 67 and even 73 but then something happened. The dream disintegrated, cracks started to appear. In 1977 a different vision of the Zionist project won the election. This vision has dominated the Jewish state ever since.

  30. Bolteric says:

    Thanks for the explanation. I need you guys to break it down in layman’s terms. (No sarcasm.)

    Should we be sorry to see Gantz go?

  31. geokat62 says:

    The first to point out the political rivalry between ‘the Jew’and ‘the Israeli’ was Shimon Peres…

    I’m no expert, Gilad, but I thought Uri Avnery was one of the first to focus on this distinction, no?

    Excerpt from Who the Hell Are We?:

    YEARS AGO I had a friendly discussion with Ariel Sharon.
    I told him: “I am first of all an Israeli. After that I am a Jew.”

    He responded heatedly: “I am first of all a Jew, and only after that an Israeli!”

    That may look like an abstract debate. But in reality, this is the question that lies at the heart of all our basic problems. It is the core of the crisis which is now rending Israel apart…

    Years ago, my friends and I asked the Supreme Court to change the “nationality” entry in our identity cards, from “Jewish” to “Israeli”. The courts refused, stating that there is no Israeli nation. The official register recognizes almost a hundred nations, but not an Israeli one.

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1533310638

    … and to finally become people like all other Goyim whether this means nationalist patriots or cosmopolitan pacifist.

    I must say, Gilad, I’m glad to see you’ve placed national patriots on an equal footing with your personal favourite, cosmopolitan pacifists. Truth be told, I was pleasantly surprised!

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  32. Because the Syn of Sat wants it that way, that’s why. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

  33. Begemot says:

    Likud/Netanyahu won 30% of the vote in Israel’s election so they get 30% of the Knesset seats. That means 70% of Israelis didn’t vote for Likud/Netanyahu. It seems only the peculiarities of Israel’s parliamentary system and the need to cobble a governing coalition make Bibi a ‘winner’. 30% isn’t much of a mandate.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  34. @AaronB

    “like an inability to physically defend themselves and over reliance on certain professions like finance, etc.”

    They was not kicked out of England for their honest sense of business in finance.

    “Eodem anno omnes Judei, cum eorum bonis, filiis, et uxoribus, circa festum Omnium Sanctorum, terram Angliae et Aquitaniae, concedente rege Edwardo, exulantur.”

    “To the same end [in reference to a tax levy in the previous sentence which is not included here] in the year, all Jews, with their goods, children and wives, around the holiday of All Saints [All Saints’ Day is November 1st], are banished from the land of England and of Aquitania [the southwest part of what is now France between the Loire River and Pyrenees Mountains], King Edward having conceded.”

  35. @Skeptikal

    “Why does Israel need subsidies?”

    Because it is a massive money scam and the Goyim must be robbed blind.

  36. Ghali says:

    The straight answer is, because Netanyahu is a dirty racist and a corrupt thug who uses cowardly violence to get closer to a society (Israeli society) that he represnts. Netanyahu is the quintessential of an Israeli Jew, just like Trump is the quintessential American Fascist.

  37. sally says:
    @Just passing through

    you must increase the scope of your inquiry to understand..

    Jew is identification in accord with a specific genetic condition..
    Israeli is a person whose soul and behaviors has been enslaved to the nation state that rules most of the oil rich Ottoman land. (<= A derivative project from the 1897 Basil, Switzerland..1st and subsequent Jewish Congresses.)

    Zionism. (see below)

    Mob. The British, French and American (bankers, oil and gas people, ex-slavers, corporate chieftains and wealthy investors) who financed the Congresses and co opted its for Mob designated needs. Zionism meaning adherence to Hertzl’s vision served as cover for the objective which would soon destroy the over-performing German economy and which would take, from the Ottoman, the oil rich lands [by any means possible], one means was to force the Jews from Russia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Germany to immigrate into the new Ottoman Empire, now called the land of the Palestinians (Post WWI British Palestine and French Syria) land. The Palestinians began in 1930s to organize resistance against the invading masses because the invaders were often violent. The contest for control of the land became intense, bloody, and the mob discovered the immigrating Jews needed political power<=hence nation state=Israel because state power allows to establish land ownership by rule of law evidenced by deeds of ownership.
    By rule of law, the Ottoman land was transferred to Jewish hands (only a government can make laws). Also the private mobsters armies, operating in foreign lands, were not recognized by International law. So Balfour Agreement was turned into a promise of the Mobster controlled British government to give the Jews a nation state. Being a nation state had many benefits to the mobster but it took a population of Jews to give the nation state sufficient political power to for its puppet leadership to effectively accomplish mobster intent including the use of rule of property law to establish the Mobster rights in the oil rich Pre WWI Ottoman Empire owned land.

    It was the Jewish Congress, and the actions of the Armies of Jews immigrating to Palestine from Eastern Europe, that identified being Jewish, with Zionism. Generally speaking I have not seen Zionism referenced to a Jewish meaning, prior to 1897, in anything written before 1897.. Interestingly enough, also during this post Civil war period in America, the British were preparing the USA to prepare the Americans it governed to prepare for WWI..

    In 1913, the 16th amendment was used to collateral bankster loans made to broke warrior states and industries providing war goods to European get Germany and take the oil from the Ottoman nation states. The 16th Amendment. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    The 16th amendment (just cited in full) ratified in 1913, effectively destroyed the words in original Article I, Section 9, para 4 which in its original constitutional form; read as follows:
    Article 1, Section 9, para 4 [original form]=>No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken

    Any analysis of the meaning of words Israeli and Jew is necessarily deeply embedded in history.

    I invite facts that oppose my understanding [outlined above] at any time..

  38. mcohen says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    The reason Netanyahu won is simple.The message is NO THANK YOU …….because time is on our side.

  39. @Gilad Atzmon

    I think the idea is a distinction between being “against the world” and “in the world”. In this view the diaspora Jew is a rootless parasite always in conflict with the rest of the world and thus “against the world”, while the new to be created Israelis would be a people rooted in its own soil (and ancient history) and living from its own honest labor, thus being “in the world” like all other peoples.

    However the creation of Israel did not allow the Israelis to become a normal people. Israel’s existence is still contested and it became “the Jew among the nations”, thus compelling the Israelis to revert to their age old existence “against the world”. Hence in Israeli politics “the Jews” win from “the Israelis”, which explains Netanyahu’s success.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  40. Seraphim says:
    @Art

    Hardly any.

    The primary manifesto of Zionism was Theodore Herzl’s “Der Judenstaat. Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage” (“The Jews’ State. Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question”).
    The ‘Basel Program’ of the first Zionist Congress (1897) stated:
    “Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law” and seeks “The strengthening and fostering of Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness”. (Some English variations translate the term Palästina and Palästinas as Eretz Israel, or Eretz Yisrael).

  41. Bibi, as far as they can tell, is the best thing that happened in modern Jewish history.

    This is likely due to his “real deal” pedigree, which beats that of non-religious sabra types such as Rabin, Barak, and Sharon. Netanyahu’s father was a devotee of the revisionist Zionism promoted by Ze’ev Jabotinsky, from Odessa, and later became a professor of Judaic studies at Cornell University. He was an expert on the Spanish Inquisition.

    Netanyahu’s paternal grandfather, Nathan Mileikowsky, a rabbi and Zionist political activist, also promoted the Hebrew language in Warsaw and Łódź, Poland. (From Wikipedia: According to his son, Benzion Netanyahu, the Mileikowsky family was one of the few families in the world who spoke Hebrew at that time.

    Shortly after WW1, Mileikowsky and his nine kids moved to Rosh Pina, north of Lake Galilee, which had been settled by Jews, under the patronage of Baron Rothschild, more than a decade prior to Theodor Herzl’s publication of his famous pamphlet, Der Judenstaat. He sometimes used the pen name “Netanyahu” in his writings.

    In 1903, at the 6th Zionist Congress in Basel, Herzl was willing to compromise and go along with establishing the new Jewish state in Uganda, whereas Mileikowsky insisted it be in Palestine. The Uganda proposal was abandoned at the next Congress two years later.

    In summary, it’s hard for Jews to get a more “hard core” leader than Binyamin Netanyahu; his criminality is part of the deal.

  42. Tom Welsh says:
    @Just passing through

    Especially since the Israeli government formally defined Israel as “a Jewish state”.

    Or is my memory letting me down?

  43. @geokat62

    I guess that the conflict between the Jew and Israeli is as old as the Jewish state however, Peres realised that it actually sums up the political conflict between Likud and what was left out of Labour Zionism … However, you are totally correct to point on Avnery who was one of the most sophisticated writers/thinkers to operate in that doomed land…

  44. @Begemot

    In israel 30% is a lot as he is leading a very forceful right wing block..the reason he can’t form a coalition is due to personal conflicts rather than political or ideological disputes..

  45. Moi says:
    @Just passing through

    Israel=Jew, Jew=Israel….same difference.

    • Agree: Z-man
  46. DaveE says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    Sorry, Gilad. I kind of realized that once I wrote the comment. What I meant (and should have spent more time making clear) is that zionism is a specific set of tactics to implement the Jewish ideology. Therefore, zionism (the tactics) will be all about appearances while Judaism (the underlying ideology) is more abstract and harder to pin down for the average outsider.

    I think we’re in agreement that early zionism was about putting a nice face on the Jewish so-called “religion”…… if that’s possible. But the two are so inextricably linked that it’ next to impossible to identify any radical differences, conceptually speaking.

    Anyway, I liked your analysis and I hope this clarifies the “appearances” of my personal “ideology” regarding Judaism and zionism!

  47. Vaterland says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    the Israeli is beaten by the authentic Jew and Netanyahu wins

    So then the ‘authentic Jew’ is a war mongering liar and ice cold killer who colludes with both oligarchs and Neo-Bolsehviks, he who subverts entire nations and who is an actual supremacist…?

    If that is the case, weren’t the ideas of the early Zionists fundamentally illusory? Isn’t then the Jewish identity itself fundamentally flawed, from its religious beginnings to its modern, secularized Jewish supremacy and power politics?

    And if that’s the case, doesn’t it also mean that any hope for Jewish reform is a dead end? Doesn’t it mean, that our only hope is to permanently exclude organized Jewry from power in our nations?

    • Agree: Kali
  48. Realist says:
    @sally

    Jew is identification in accord with a specific genetic condition..

    Correct. Many people have a hard time distinguishing between a genetic Jew and a person who lives within the dictates of the Jewish religion. Sammy Davis Jr was a member of the Jewish religion…he sure as hell wasn’t a genetic Jew.

  49. Doesn’t Netanyahu keep winning due to his ties to the anglo-american deep state and their mutual financial interests? I hate to admit that I agree with Hitler on this, and that Israel was just meant to be a save haven for the elite Jewish criminals operating in the anglophile world . Crooked Bibi is the ideal man for office. In the end I think this is less Jews vs Israeli, and more the 99% Jews vs the 1%. It always boils down the one percent no matter what ethnicity. Someday we should just take a break from hating each other, and direct our wrath towards those darling rich SOB’s.

  50. Yarkob says:
    @Fran Taubman

    “ This article is so outdated I do not have to comment.”

    yet you did anyway…

    • Replies: @Herald
  51. Realist says:
    @Art

    Jew greed is their source of power.

    Greed is the source of all power. Greed drives the wealth and power of the Deep State (not all Jewish).

  52. The false flag terrorist attacks carried out on September 11, 2001 were ordered by the International Banking Cartel, overseen by the Khazarian Mafia headquartered in Tel Aviv, and coordinated with Neocon Zionists in Washington, D.C.  This well-planned terror operation was carried out to (i) declare the bogus War on Terror, (ii) establish the Stasi-like Department of Homeland Security and (iii) pass the unconstitutional Patriot Act.  Each of these events was designed to further strip Americans of their rights and liberties, as well as to lay the groundwork for a future war against the Patriot Movement.  There are no other treasonous acts of terrorism which have so prepped the US government to wage a war on its own citizenry.  The many Jewish traitors know they have nowhere to run but Israel when these truths are generally known, so they have locked the whole place down until their next big move.

    THERE IS NOTHING CONSERVATIVE ABOUT FORCING FAMILIES OUT OF THEIR HOME AT GUNPOINT

    IT’S JUST A COHENCIDENCE GOY

    Nut&yah >;)
    All is going in accordance with
    the Protocols. Lord Rothschild! Goys 
    killing goys. Race wars, blacks against 
    whites,Christians hating Muslims for
    Mossad false flags, Muslims hating the 
    West for wrecking their Nations.
    Rothschild 🙂
    Well done, Bibi! The
    goyim are too stupid to
    know we’re behind their
    woes. MUCH too stupid 
    to make a meme about
    us and re-Tweet it!

    https://www.winterwatch.net/2017/12/the-war-on-islam-9-11-revisited-uncovered-exposed/

  53. There is a lot to unpack in the 800 words…

    Bibi didn’t need the American “guru” to tell him that “Jewishness” is what keeps Israelis united. All one has to do is look at an Ethiopian Jew with his kinky hair and a Russian Jew with his blonde hair to know the difference.

    Now as to the “Israelis” and “Jews”, look at it this way: a fag from Tel Aviv (I guess the Miami of Israel) wouldn’t kick a Palestinian out of his bed which makes him not a true blue Jew but an Israeli. Whereas, take a shaven headed Jewess out of Jerusalem who wouldn’t give the time of day to an Arab, let alone shack up with him which makes her a shtetl-ite, i.e. a true Jew.

    As to Bibi controlling the goyishe, i.e. the American taxpayer, it’s only because the same “secular” Jew who mistakenly believes that Israel is still a big kibbutz and therefore deserving of his ill-gotten gains in America is the one manipulating the US system like a puppeteer for the benefit of the turncoat Netanyahu, who has gone from being an Israeli (IDF man) to being a Jew (funny, how the middle age crisis works on different people).

    And it isn’t hocus pocus about Israelis and Jews. Take Mike Bloomberg for example. Why did he drop out of the race after spending 500 million dollars on a half-ass campaign and endorsed shabbos goy Biden last night? He ran to undo Bernie Sanders the “Israeli” because the kibbutzim is threatening the “Jew” in Bloomberg (you can make man a billionaire but can’t take shtetl out him in a billion years).

    Now that Bernie is going to unravel, the non-contest, contest between two shabbos-goys wouldn’t matter for both will jump for Netanyahu; the question is who will jump higher!

  54. Skeptikal says:
    @AaronB

    “But it was always about Judaism and Jewish tradition, it just sought to anchor it more in the heroic Bible and to distance itself from the type of Jewish culture developed in the European shtetl. But Judaism and Jewishness were and are central to Zionism.”

    Well, here you appear to be contradicting Atzmon.

    I supposed this is just another example of the shapeshifting that occurs in discussions of Judaism and all related subjects according to the needs of a particular argument or day.
    Musical chairs through the ethnic/religious/nationalist/racist/tribal tropes.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  55. He wins because a large proportion of Israeli Jews are bigots. They are raised from birth to see the Arab as a lesser being and dangerous. That’s the reality. It’s as if the KKK had their own nuclear armed state.

    • Agree: Wielgus
    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  56. Skeptikal says:
    @AaronB

    “It doesn’t need subsidies. It’s about 1% of Israel’s GDP, obviously not crucial. Israel has a higher per capita income than Britain and it’s economy is thriving, esp the tech sector.

    At this point, it is largely symbolic – a symbol of America’s relationship to Israel.”

    Aha! So the subsidies actually help the USA, not Israel!
    Neat!
    I get it.
    Israelis should be ashamed to be taking money from the USA that they do not need and that is desperately needed here.
    $3 billion, that is not chump change. That could medical care for . . . a lot of people. Food. Shelter.

    Because of the power of AIPAC and the Israel lobby and other Zionist and Jewish players within the USA, it is like taking candy from a baby.

    • Replies: @BDS Always
    , @AaronB
  57. @Skeptikal

    ‘… I supposed this is just another example of the shapeshifting that occurs in discussions of Judaism and all related subjects according to the needs of a particular argument or day.
    Musical chairs through the ethnic/religious/nationalist/racist/tribal tropes.’

    You noticed that as well. It’s not just Aaron, either.

  58. Alfred says:

    I think I understand what Atzmon is trying to explain. About the two strains of people who cohabit the same piece of land – and who detest one another.

    Until the present, this anger and frustration has been largely directed at all their neighbours – and the neighbours of the neighbours or their neighbours (Iran). Now, they are gradually being bottled up in the same piece of land. They pretend to be all powerful by launching missiles against resedential buildings near Damascus from outside Syria. But that is all for show as it has no strategic value.

    I think that when this show comes to a close, these two strains will turn against one another. I suspect that the Zionist strain will want to leave and live elsewhere. They have more skills and they don’t like being dictated to by religious zealots. The ones left behind, the “Jews”, don’t even want to do military service. They just want to have kids and to depend on handouts. Not much of a future there for them. They are a special type of underclass.

  59. @Skeptikal

    Israel benefits from $3.8 billion in aid annually plus another $10 billion through bogus charities, trade concessions and U.S. government funded projects approved by Congress that the American public knows little or nothing about.
    Parasitic behaviour from the squatters living on stolen land.
    How is the American public not up in arms when they are suffering so badly?

    • Agree: Cassandra
  60. AaronB says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    Oh, this I more or less agree with.

    The Zionists understood that Jewish identity had picked up some negative aspects during the long sojourn in Europe, and they wanted to purge it and restore it to health.

    They wanted to get rid of the shtetl mentality. But that mentality was a fairly recent phenomenon and pretty much confined to Europe.

    They certainly did not want to get rid of Jewishness. They loved the Bible and much of Jewish tradition.

    As for Bibi, I don’t understand why you say he and his voters represent the shtetl mentality. Bibi is a very physical mans man and an ex-commando with a storied and heroic military record, widely known in Israel. And his base support are the Mizrahi Jews from the Arab world whose ancient communities were destroyed upon the creation of Israel. They are the opposite if the shtetl mentality and generally brawny working class types.

  61. AaronB says:
    @Skeptikal

    Sure, I would have no problem stopping that subsidy. There was some talk about it a while ago, I believe even Netanyahu a few years back was in favor of ending it.

    Its mostly just a political thing at this point. In terms of how much the US spends on foreign policy in places like Germany and South Korea for troops, etc, it is chump change.

    So I guess the US finds it easier to keep it going and buy some influence etc.

  62. Skeptikal says:

    Aaron:
    “Sure, I would have no problem stopping that subsidy. There was some talk about it a while ago, I believe even Netanyahu a few years back was in favor of ending it. ”

    So what are you, and Netanyahu, waiting for?
    Pray tell.

  63. Wally says:
    @Colin Wright

    said:
    “Zionism kept Ashkenazi Holocaust survivors from being relocated to the United States and the British Commonwealth countries. ”

    – What “holocaust survivors”? Who are they? What do they actually say they “survived”?

    – How can there massive numbers of “survivors when it’s alleged that “the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get there hands on”.

    Follow the money.

    – This is what they have said, so far:

    What those “survivors / eyewitnesses” actually say: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4544

    Holohoax Tales: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12988

  64. Netanyahu should have been put in prison – tongueless – a long time ago. To commemorate the victims of his horrific lies, every September 12th for the next fifty years – just two generations — Netanyahu’s dried tongue should be placed at the entrance to our House of Congress. Every passing Representative would be permitted to spit and curse upon this hideous organ of mass deception. Inside the House all would redouble their commitment to uphold the USA Constitution and never again permit the press to be controlled by a foreign power.

    In the nineteenth century Sir Richard Burton wrote:

    “This Russian pre-emption of the Holy Land is a benefit to the Jew, although the latter may not recognize it. But for this he would hasten to fulfill the prophesy; he would buy up the country, as indeed he is now doing at Jerusalem; he would conquer the people of the capital, and he would once more form a nation.

    “But here the question obtrudes itself: If again should Judaism prevail – indeed its advocates say it shall prevail universally – how long could it endure?

    “Those who know the codes of the Talmud and the Safed school, which are still, despite certain petty struggles, the life light of Judaism, will have no trouble in replying. [THE PARAGRAPH CONTINUES WITH A LONG AND COLORFUL DESCRIPTION CONCLUDING WITH]…
    “A year of such spectacles would more than suffice to excite the wrath and revenge of outraged humanity; the race, cruel, dogged, and desperate as in the days of Titus and Hadrian, would defend itself to the last; the result would be another siege and capture of Jerusalem, and the ‘Chosen People’ would once again lie prostrate in their blood and be stamped out of the Holy Land.”

    -Sir Richard F. Burton, The Jew, The Gypsy and El Islam* (~1869-1871? Note: If anyone has a copy of Burton’s missing appendix to this tract please share it.)

    To be less prophetic and more mytho-poetic, the Israeli-Jew “divide” Atzmon describes reminds me a little of that between Starbuck and Captain Ahab in Moby Dick. Like Einstein’s 1948 letter in the New York Times, and the 1994 AMIA bombing in Argentina, again and again, we hear Starbuck’s nervous appeal, and witness Ahab’s blunt answer.

    “He waxes brave, but nonetheless obeys; most careful bravery that!” murmured Ahab, as Starbuck disappeared. “What’s that he said – Ahab beware of Ahab – there is something there!”
    – In Moby Dick, by Herman Melville 1851

    • Replies: @IT'S ME
  65. @Franklin Ryckaert

    The early zionist weren’t polite about their criticism of the diaspora Jew, however, as I show in my work, the new Hebraic beginning was destined to crash as it did … The Jewish state, in practice, amplifies the symptoms it was designed to suppress…

  66. @AaronB

    Bibi is indeed an alpha male, ex commando soldier etc. ,,, but the way in which he runs his state is an exemplary case of a shtetl operation.. It is the bond between rabbis, power and mamon, the beggars mentality milking cash from goyim whether it is American taxpayers’ money, or the grand plan to impoverish poland. It is the racist policies, making your collective despised regionally… ,,, do you want me to continue? However, I think that Bibi is still better than all the other imbeciles who star the Israeli politics at the moment except of course the Arab United List …

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  67. Boone says:

    Sorry, but as an Israeli I find this analysis deeply flawed. The two Israeli camps are perhaps most akin to the camps one find in Eastern Europe nowadays, think Hungary. On one hand you have a more nationalist camp wishing to see a nation-state rooted in the heritage of its forefathers with power vested in elected bodies (Netanyahu, Orban); on the other hand you have a camp wishing to see a cosmopolitan member of the EU with power vested in the administrative state and the judiciary (Gantz, Soros).

    The rest is empty dialectics.

  68. @MacSimpleton

    “…It’s as if the KKK had their own nuclear armed state…”

    I am afraid it is worse than that. Think of Israel’s Samson Option.

  69. @AaronB

    ‘…They certainly did not want to get rid of Jewishness. They loved the Bible and much of Jewish tradition…’

    I imagine you’ll omit to provide much support for that statement.

    • Replies: @Nonny Mouse
  70. @Gilad Atzmon

    ‘… It is the bond between rabbis, power and mamon, the beggars mentality milking cash from goyim whether it is American taxpayers’ money, or the grand plan to impoverish poland…’

    Perhaps you should elucidate what you mean by this last. It’d be unfair for me to uncritically accept it as written.

    In other words, what are you referring to?

    • Replies: @Robjil
  71. @Gilad Atzmon

    it was this vision of Zionism that led to the formation of israel and and also responsible for Israeli military successes in 56, 67 and even 73 but then something happened. The dream disintegrated, cracks started to appear. In 1977 a different vision of the Zionist project won the election. This vision has dominated the Jewish state ever since.

    Yes the early zionist thought that if the Jews could get some fresh air their neurosis would vanish, and in the early days it worked. There were Jewish farmers, policeman and postman. Regular folk enjoying their land unencumbered by the Christian power structure.

    You are correct Israel and Zionism has changed and Israel has morphed into a Shtetl.
    The change however was not from the inside out, and did not happen in a vacuum. Can we at least agree on that point? The death of secular Judaism coincided with the death of secularism throughout the Western world as secular globalism and the left are being rejected.

    What else happened? The Zionist who founded Israel were told by Islamist that they had no right to the land, not because they were Jews, but because Islam forbade it as written in the Q’ran. No matter what was offered it was rejected. The land once belonged to Muslims and it had to stay in Muslim hands. It was Islamic dogma devoid of logic as the holy lands of Islam are Mecca and Medina. Every religious Muslim knows that Israel is the home of the Jews, and the Jewish temples, the spiritual nexus of Judaism.

    The Zionist hit an irrational incurable movement to not only delegitimize Israel but by extension Judaism, including secular Zionists It was a religious fervor of extremism combined with Islam’s inability to modernize and compete. Israel became the cause celeb that united the Islamist, and made Islam relevant again.

    The Israelis and Jews who thought that Israel would be the end of Jew hatred had to rethink, and at the end of the day intelligent Israelis and Jews saw things differently then the early Zionist. They view Jew hatred as an existential threat that has no rhyme or reason. The fight has become a metaphysical one. The conclusion is that Jews will never fit, and Jew hatred will never die. The inability to rationally solve the Jew hate problem smacked them in the face, and many secular Jews became religious. With the rise of the Chabad, study of Kabbalah Israel is now being run and defended by religious Jews. This is my reality what I have personally lived through.

    Retool Gilad, grab on to new ideas.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Colin Wright
  72. Haha, never mind! Lieberman just gave Bibi the ol’ sponge bullet to the eyeball. The ol’ butterfly bullet to the kneecap. The ol’ krav maga kick to the nuts. No indicted crooks for PM.

  73. Herald says:
    @Yarkob

    And I was thinking that Fran had taken a sabbatical, but no such luck.

  74. anarchyst says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Let’s not forget that Israel has blackmailed the world with its “Samson Option”.

    If a nuclear device is “lit off” in an American or European city, it will have Israel’s fingerprints all over it. Israel is desperate to keep the American money spigot running, as well as sabotaging the Palestinian “peace process” that the world wants it to take seriously.

    [MORE]

    In fact, if a nuclear device is “lit off” anywhere in the world, it will have come from Israel’s secret nuclear “stockpile”. With today’s situation in Iran, Israel may just have to “light one off” to get its “American lapdog” to respond appropriately.

    The “power outage” in Atlanta was a convenient excuse for Israel to perform a logistical “sleight of hand”, as an Israeli plane was allowed to land and take off during the “power outage” without receiving customs clearance or inspection.

    This is one of many Israeli companies that possesses a “special exemption” granted by the U S government that frees it from customs inspections.

    Just maybe another one of Israel’s nukes was just being pre-positioned or nuclear triggers (tritium) were being renewed, getting ready for “the big one”. As most Americans are tired of all of the foreign wars being fought for Israel’s benefit, another “incident” on American soil would be enough to galvanize the American public, once again, (just like WTC 9-11) to support another war for Israel’s benefit (Iran).

    Israel’s “samson option” is a real threat to “light one off” in a European or American city, if Israel’s interests are not taken seriously.

    Israel refuses to abide by IAEA guidelines concerning its nukes as they are already distributed around the world. Israel would not be able to produce all of them as most of them are not in Israel, proper.

    No delivery systems are needed as Israel’s nukes are already in place. Look for another false flag operation with the blame being put on Iran or Syria. You can bet that some Iranian or Syrian passports will be found in the rubble.

    Talk about total INSANITY; the so-called Samson Option is it.

    American foreign aid is prohibited from being given to any country that has not signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (the Symington Amendment)or refuses to abide by International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) guidelines regarding its nuclear devices.

    Guess what??

    Israel does not abide by EITHER and still gets the majority of American foreign aid. This prohibition also applies to countries that do not register their agents of a foreign government with the U S State Department. Guess what?? Israel (again) with its American Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC) still gets “foreign aid” in contravention of American law..

    There are forty or so congressmen, senators and thousands of high-level policy wonks infecting the U S government who hold dual citizenship with Israel.

    Any dual citizenship must be strictly prohibited.

    Those holding dual citizenship must be required to renounce said foreign citizenship in order to remain in the country.

    Refusal to do so should result in immediate deportation with permanent loss of American citizenship. Present and former holders of “dual citizenship” should never be allowed to serve in any American governmental capacity.

    In addition, any American citizen who serves or has served in Israel’s military (Israel Defense Forces) should automatically lose their American citizenship and be immediately deported to Israel.

    When Netanyahu addressed both houses of congress, it was sickening to see our politicians slobber all over themselves to PROVE that they were unconditional supporters of Israel. It was a scene out of the old Soviet Politburo which no one wanted to be the first one to stop applauding.

    Just who the hell do they work for?

    Certainly not for the interests of the American people and the United States, at the least they should renounce their United States citizenship and be deported to israel. Being indicted, tried for treason against the united States of America would be appropriate.

    Let’s not forget the “loyalty oaths” to a foreign country (Israel) which American politicians are required to sign in order to receive “funding” from israel. As much as I despise the two moslem woman politicians, they were absolutely right to call out the rest of the politicians for signing “loyalty oaths” to israel.

    TREASON, anyone?

    • Agree: DaveE
    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  75. @Colin Wright

    Sailer likes to launder the same nonsense about Israel’s tech sector which in reality is massively propped up by U.S. corporations just like the Republic of Ireland with its tax dumping model. The investment is hardly value for money.

    • Agree: Alfred
  76. @Realist

    It was/is thought that if you’re willing to go through the process of conversion, then whatever your body, you must have a “Jewish soul” that is merely returning. A convert is just as much a Jew as Bibi is, and it’s a cast iron rule.

    • Replies: @Realist
  77. @Franklin Ryckaert

    Have you *looked* at the direction the US is going? The KKK *does* have their own nuclear armed state.

    • Replies: @A123
  78. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    No matter what was offered it was rejected.

    Not true, Fran.

    As usual, the truth is the inverse of how you describe it.

    The Arabs put forward a Peace Initiative (a 10 sentence proposal for an end to the Arab–Israeli conflict) 3 times. It was first endorsed by the Arab League in 2002, re-endorsed in 2007, and yet again in 2017.

    Each time, however, it was rejected by the Jewish state.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

    Retool Gilad, grab on to new ideas.

    You should practice what you preach, Fran.

  79. @geokat62

    None of the proposals presented would accept the sovereignty of Israel as a Jewish state. If the Israelis good get it done they would have.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  80. A123 says:
    @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

    Have you *looked* at the direction the US is going? The KKK *does* have their own nuclear armed state.

    The DNC did wear their traditional KKK white to the State of the Union address.

    Let’s face it. The Dems have hated us Republicans ever since we freed their slaves.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

  81. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    None of the proposals presented would accept the sovereignty of Israel as a Jewish state.

    That’s odd, none of the reactions from three PMs and one President mentioned that concern:

    The Israeli government under Ariel Sharon rejected the initiative as a “non-starter”. Sharon said the new plan could not be accepted because it would replace UN resolutions 242 and 338, which called for bilateral negotiations. After the renewed Arab League endorsement in 2007, then-Prime Minister Ehud Olmert gave a cautious welcome to the plan. In 2009, President Shimon Peres expressed satisfaction at the “u-turn” in the attitudes of Arab states toward peace with Israel as reflected in the Saudi initiative, though he did qualify his comments by saying: “Israel wasn’t a partner to the wording of this initiative. Therefore it doesn’t have to agree to every word.”

    More recently, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has expressed tentative support for the initiative, saying he accepts the “general idea” with significant caveats, specifically its calls for Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights and accept the relocation of millions of Palestinian refugees into Israel.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  82. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Israel became the cause celeb that united the Islamist, and made Islam relevant again…’

    Dunno about that, boys and girls. However, it has been observed that one of the reasons many Jews support Israel these days is that it’s about all that’s left of their Jewish identity.

    If it weren’t for Israel, Steven Spielberg would be a Jew…how? Sheldon Adelson? Aaron? He likes to concoct pseudo-Buddhist folderol. Take away Israel and there wouldn’t be anything left.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  83. Skeptikal says:
    @anarchyst

    “There are forty or so congressmen, senators and thousands of high-level policy wonks infecting the U S government who hold dual citizenship with Israel. ”

    I have seen a list of these traitors somewhere, but it never hurts to publish it again.

  84. @geokat62

    The three sticking point were as follows:

    The right of return of all the refugees.
    The acknowledgment of Israel as a Jewish state.
    The sign off on “End of the conflict”

    These are well known non starters that the Palestinians refuse to accept. Abbas said he will go to his grave without accepting that.

    • Disagree: thotmonger
    • Replies: @geokat62
  85. @geokat62

    ‘The Arabs put forward a Peace Initiative (a 10 sentence proposal for an end to the Arab–Israeli conflict) 3 times. It was first endorsed by the Arab League in 2002, re-endorsed in 2007, and yet again in 2017.’

    It started even earlier than that. In 1973, Kissinger got Egypt to agree to a proposal where Israel would cede nominal sovereignty over Sinai to Egypt, Egypt would recognize Israel and sign a peace treaty, Israel would physically withdraw from Sinai. Egypt warned that the offer was only good through September, though.

    Israel said ‘nahh…we’ll just keep Sinai.’

    Wise conquerors have always taken advantage of their total triumph to offer a peace the loser could accept. We did this after the Mexican-American War, Turkey did it after the Graeco-Turkish War, and France and Germany have finally stopped it with France getting Alsace and Lorraine — but no more — after all.

    Israel isn’t a wise conqueror. She just wants to keep it all.

    That means the war continues. And sooner or later, Israel will lose.

    • Agree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
    , @AaronB
  86. @Colin Wright

    If it weren’t for Israel, Steven Spielberg would be a Jew…how? Sheldon Adelson? Aaron? He likes to concoct pseudo-Buddhist folderol. Take away Israel and there wouldn’t be anything left.

    This is way above your pay grade. Take away Israel and there would be nothing left gee.. My answer.

    Sha ….ll weee …dance? Sha….ll we … dance

    Shall we dance?
    On a bright cloud of music shall we fly?

    Oh perchance
    When the last little star has leave the sky

  87. @Colin Wright

    They can be proud of it as an achievement of the people they falsely pretend to be, love it in that sense, without ever having opened it or heard it read, and while denying that it only exists because the Canaanites invented the alphabet.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  88. @A123

    I never said it was Dems vs. Repubs. And indeed, the Dems were the traditional KKK party.

  89. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    These are well known non starters that the Palestinians refuse to accept.

    Nice try, Fran. But, it’s the Israelis who are not interested in the 2SS. The 2SS charade has already been exposed to the world as one big lie. Stop trying to perpetuate it!

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  90. geokat62 says:
    @Nonny Mouse

    … because the Canaanites invented the alphabet.

    The Phoenicians fell a little short of inventing an alphabet because their writing system was comprised exclusively of consonants. There were no vowels. That’s why credit for inventing the alphabet fell to the Greeks. They had both consonants and vowels, a true alphabet.

    • Replies: @Nonny Mouse
  91. Robjil says:
    @Colin Wright

    Jewish Elites want billions from Poland for compensation for lost property. They passed a law in the US congress about this already.

    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4fa_1519746916

    [MORE]

    Jews want to extort 300 billion dollars from Poland [ENG sub]
    Conversation between former Israeli ambassador in Poland Shevach Weiss with the director, former presidential candidate Grzegorz Braun

    From Israeli point of view Poles of Jewish origin that died in Holocaust weren’t Poles. There were Jews, so the compensation is a must. For that to happen, Israel demands from Poland to break it’s own inheritance law and create precedence or some sort of tribal inheritance law.
    From Polish point of view, there is no issue at all, because inheritance law makes the case crystal clear. If there are living heirs they have opened legal paths through Polish courts to claim compensation.
    Organisation like World Jewish Congress or State of Israel, that in no way are representing Poles of Jewish origin that died in Holocaust, by Polish law have no right to demand any compensation whatsoever.
    By any objective legal measure, Poland hold the moral highground and does not need to worry about anything, however, Israel is a superpower, both militarily and in media. Plus, it’s no secret that Jews are over-represented in society elites.

    Here is the law that the US congress passed. Notice this involves other nations, not the US. Why is congress passing laws for other nations?

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/447

    Public Law No: 115-171 (05/09/2018)

    Justice for Uncompensated Survivors Today (JUST) Act of 2017

    (Sec. 2) This bill requires the Department of State to report to Congress assessing the national laws and enforceable policies of covered countries regarding the identification and return of, or restitution for, assets wrongfully seized or transferred during the Holocaust era, including:

    the return to the rightful owner of wrongfully seized or transferred property, including religious or communal property, or the provision of comparable substitute property or the payment of equitable compensation;
    the restitution of heirless property to assist needy Holocaust survivors; and
    progress on the resolution of claims for U.S.-citizen Holocaust survivors and family members.

    “Covered countries” are participants in the 2009 Holocaust Era Assets Conference that are determined by the State Department, in consultation with expert nongovernmental organizations, to be countries of particular concern relative to the restitution of Holocaust-era assets.

    https://poland.us/strona,50,34042,0,just-act-447-is-this-panic-justified-in-poland.html

    By adopting the JUST Act 447 Act, the US Congress has compromised itself. No state should, directly or indirectly, interfere in the affairs of other states within framework of its internal law. For such there is international law and its institutions – in this case the UN. USA power and domination in world politics does not authorize the American authorities to suggest to other international entities what they should do

    .

    • LOL: Alfred
    • Replies: @A123
  92. @Colin Wright

    It started even earlier than that. In 1973, Kissinger got Egypt to agree to a proposal where Israel would cede nominal sovereignty over Sinai to Egypt, Egypt would recognize Israel and sign a peace treaty, Israel would physically withdraw from Sinai. Egypt warned that the offer was only good through September, though.

    Israel said ‘nahh…we’ll just keep Sinai.’

    Maybe you were napping but Israel did give the Sinai back to Egypt and then signed a comprehensive peace treaty where Egypt recognized Israel as the Jewish state.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Colin Wright
  93. A123 says:
    @Robjil

    Jewish Elites want billions from Poland for compensation for lost property. They passed a law in the US congress about this already.

    This lie has already been thoroughly debunked.

    Public Law No: 115-171 is within a hair’s width of being meaningless. It:

    — Requires a State Department report.
    — Has no enforcement or penalties.
    — Allows for claims by non-Jews who lost property to the Reich.

    The whole thing is so insubstantial that Senate did not have a vote. It went through on a procedural method. This is the same symbolic but ineffectual process that created National Broccoli Day. (1)

    And, everyone remembers how National Broccoli Day turned out: (2)

    President George H.W. Bush may have flip-flopped on a number of issues over his long political career, and he may have been tagged a wimp, most famously in a 1987 Newsweek cover story. But when it came to a certain cruciferous vegetable, the 41st president of the United States displayed the kind of backbone usually reserved for dictators and communist insurgents: He refused all invitations to sit down and eat broccoli.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.whatnationaldayisit.com/day/Broccoli/

    (2) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2018/12/05/as-president-george-h-w-bush-never-wavered-from-his-hard-line-on-broccoli/

    • Disagree: thotmonger
    • Replies: @Robjil
  94. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    … a comprehensive peace treaty where Egypt recognized Israel as the Jewish state.

    LOL. This is what the Egyptians agreed to, Fran:

    The agreement notably made Egypt the first Arab state to officially recognize Israel.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Israel_Peace_Treaty

    I looked everywhere, but couldn’t find the four words you appended to your sentence. Could you do us a favour and point us to where those four words show up in the formal agreement?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  95. @geokat62

    I was in Israel before Camp David failed in 2000. There was so much excitement. Everyone thought it would be over and there would be peace. I remember talking to people about co-education with Palestinian children along with summer camps, believing the children contained the best prospects to grow together.
    Infrastructure was poured into the West Bank, new sewage systems etc. Jericho had a new casino built that I toured with Palestinian, as part of an economic plan, and hopes for tourism. All done in preparation for the signing of a peace deal with Arafat and Barak at Camp David.

    I was there Geo. I never in my wildest dreams thought Arafat would walk away, declaring to Clinton that the Jewish Temples are not in Jerusalem, but in Iraq. For real.
    So you do not know what you are talking about. Then there was the second intifada, the wall, the Gaza pull out, and Hamas. It is over for sure. But to say israel was insincere is a flat out lie. Yew the 2SS is gone, really gone.

    • Disagree: thotmonger
  96. Apparently, Netanyahu’s victory remains tenuous. Yet again:

    Netanyahu election lead shrinks, raising prospect of another Israel vote

    JERUSALEM (Reuters) – Israel appeared headed into another political stalemate on Wednesday after nearly-complete results indicated Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had failed to secure a clear majority for a right-wing bloc in parliament, despite his claim of victory.

    With 99% of votes counted, Netanyahu’s conservative Likud party was seen taking 35 of parliament’s 120 seats, down from 36 initially projected after Monday’s election. His centrist challenger, Benny Gantz, was seen holding steady at 32 seats for his Blue and White party.

    Israeli premiers generally need a coalition commanding 61 seats for their governments to survive. Wednesday’s tally suggested that, with like-minded parties, a Netanyahu coalition could now expect to garner only 58. …

    Israeli media said Blue and White might table legislation that would bar a prime minister under indictment from forming the next government. Asked about the reports, a Blue and White spokeswoman said: “All options are currently on the table.”

    The Joint List, a party representing Israel’s 21% Arab minority and which surged in Monday’s election with a projected 15 seats, said it was cooperating with Blue and White – an apparent confirmation that the disqualification initiative was under way.

  97. Robjil says:
    @A123

    Unfortunately it is real. Poland should ignore US and Israel though. Poland created the Ashkenazi people by inviting them in 1054. They grew from a few thousand to many millions in Poland over many centuries. Growing from just small numbers is the reason that today most Ashkenazis are third or fourth cousins of each other. They grew to such large numbers because Poland allowed the Ashkenazis freedom to practice their religion and business activities without any interference. Poland should be given honor from Ashkenazis and not be tormented by them.

    http://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/447

    The Justice for Uncompensated Survivors Today (JUST) Act (S.447) passed on December 12, 2017 the U.S. Senate and on April 24, 2018 the House of Representatives. The House vote for S. 447 was highly controversial, as it passed the House on motion to suspend the rules, and in an almost empty Chamber, where a handful of representatives agreed to S. 447 by a very weak voice vote (voice vote is usually applied in case of uncontroversial bills of insignificant importance). Act S. 447 was signed by president Trump on May 9, 2018.
    Months prior to the House voting, Polish Americans lobbied intensively against illegal and immoral Act H.R. 1226 and its sister bill S. 447, to no avail. Ed Royce, Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee did not take into account the appeals of Polish Americans to reject H.R. 1226. Instead, Paul Ryan, Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, suspended the normally applicable procedure and allowed the vote, under suspension of the rules (!), not on its own Act H.R.1226, but on the Senate Act S.447. The highly controversial bill S. 447 passed the House by “voice voting” which is normally reserved for noncontroversial acts. Two weeks later is was signed by the US President.

    Here is an article about it from Israel

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/poland-cancels-israeli-delegations-trip-over-holocaust-property-restitution-row/

    Poland on Monday said it had canceled a visit by Israeli officials who intended to raise the issue of the restitution of Jewish properties seized during the Holocaust, a matter Warsaw insists is closed.

    “Poland decided to cancel the visit of Israeli officials after the Israeli side made last minute changes in the composition of the delegation suggesting that the talks would primarily focus on the issues related to property restitution,” the foreign ministry in Warsaw said in a statement posted to its website.

  98. Anonymous[223] • Disclaimer says:

    So, does the polarity –Jew vs. Israeli — switch once one is inside the Israeli state? I am thinking here of prominent non-Israelis who identify as ‘Jews’ such as Sacha Baron Cohen. Inside the homeland, are the Israelis, painting admittedly with a broad brush “rootless and cosmopolitan” while the Jews here are particularist and provincial? I am sure that what Atzmon is saying makes sense but going from the map — the words– to the territory here is difficult.

  99. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    I believe you are referring to the Third Rogers plan?

    Initially, Israel rejected it because it did not address Israel’s security concerns. When Israel’s security concerns were addressed, Israel accepted it. Egypt accepted it, then promptly violated it by moving military equipment into areas designated as demilitarized under the plan….

    Anyways, there is probably little point in getting into a detailed discussion of Israeli Arab peace proposals. There are loads of Wikipedia articles that anyone interested can look up, and judge for themselves which party was more interested in peace.

    As for Israel eventually losing, nuclear weapons have fundamentally altered the character of modern war. No nation that possesses them can lose anymore. The world is simply a different place now. Whether that’s good or bad is a matter of opinion – but the old heroic days of war are mostly over.

    That’s why this whole conflict is at this point very much a farce. Israel cannot be destroyed – an Israeli general recently called Israel an unbeatable country during a speech. It was simply a description of fact, not a boast – and the game is about containing the Arabs and waiting until they exhaust their destructive impulses. Which is slowly but surely happening.

    But these unfortunate visions of one side getting destroyed seem rather barbarous to me – I certainly have no wish for the Arabs to be destroyed. I would rather envision peaceful coexistence and cooperation, which I believe will increasingly happen in the coming decades and centuries.

    At a certain point, the Muslims will abandon these primitive visions of one side getting destroyed – it is this same over-aggressive mentality that is leading to the constant internal fight among Muslims. People who are too aggressive will fight with their friends and not just their enemies.

    Anyways, we have centuries ahead of us, so there is no urgency.

    • Agree: Fran Taubman
  100. @geokat62

    Perhaps we are talking around each other. I dunno what you are talking about.

    Contents
    History

    See also: Israeli occupation of Sinai
    The peace treaty between Egypt and Israel was signed 16 months after Egyptian president Anwar Sadat’s visit to Israel in 1977 after intense negotiation. The main features of the treaty were mutual recognition, cessation of the state of war that had existed since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, normalization of relations and the complete withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the Sinai Peninsula which Israel had captured during the Six-Day War in 1967. Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal, and recognition of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.

    The agreement notably made Egypt the first Arab state to officially recognize Israel.[1]

    • Replies: @geokat62
  101. AaronB says:
    @Fran Taubman

    As far as I remember, wasn’t the main sticking point that the Palestinians insisted that millions of Palestinians be allowed to return to Israel’s pre-1967 borders, effectively destroying the state?

    I believe that this is Hamas’s position today – no peace without Israel’s destruction.

    But as far as I understand, the Palestinian Authority has gradually moved away from this extremist position since the 2000s, although I am not sure by how much.

    I think part of the problem is the noted Muslim tendency to retreat into comforting fantasy – for example, AnonStarter blandly assures us periodically that Israel’s time for voluntarily surrendering is running out, and any day now the Muslims will really get mad. They’ll show us then. It’s like the 100 pound nerd threatening the champion boxer to hand over his lunch money now, or he’ll really get mad.

    This kind of posturing is an understandable feature of failed societies that have suffered humiliation, but it sustains an immature mindset that blocks growth. A failed society cannot heal until it gets past this kind of thinking.

    But as I keep on repeating, unless the Muslim world will continue on its current trajectory and simply destroy itself in endless bloodshed – which may happen, as the turmoil in the Muslim world today is somewhat reminiscent of the self-immolation of Europe in WW1 – or the Muslim world will grow into maturity. And part of becoming mature is a reduction in over-aggressive impulses and a greater willingness to confront reality.

  102. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Maybe you were napping but Israel did give the Sinai back to Egypt and then signed a comprehensive peace treaty where Egypt recognized Israel as the Jewish state…’

    Sure — but first Egypt had to communicate with the Jews of Israel. Hence the Yom Kippur War.

    You have to know how to talk to the Jews of Israel. Hezbollah’s proved able to talk to them as well.

  103. @AaronB

    ‘…I think part of the problem is the noted Muslim tendency to retreat into comforting fantasy…’

    Whereas the Jews quite reasonably assume eternal military superiority, a nuclear monopoly in perpetuity, the permanent status of the United States as global hegemon, and an indefinite continuation of our uncritical support.

    That’s a perfectly reasonable set of assumptions. Happy trails.

  104. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Perhaps we are talking around each other. I dunno what you are talking about.

    The Egyptians recognized the state of Israel, period. They did not recognize Israel as the Jewish state. See the difference, Fran?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  105. @geokat62

    Yes, it was an alphabet without vowels, and the Bible was written in an alphabet without vowels, thanks to the Canaanite invention.

    Vowels are very fluid, by the way. The vowels of the alphabet each signify a wide family of sounds, different in different languages. The vowel of English “sit” is German u-umlaut and the vowel of English “seat” is German i.

    So it was very reasonable for the earliest alphabets to skip the vowels. NO alphabet has successfully included vowel characters.

  106. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    I was there Geo. I never in my wildest dreams thought Arafat would walk away…

    That’s your perspective, Fran.

    Here’s the Palestinian perspective:

    In a nutshell, Arafat was presented with “a take it or leave it deal” either Palestinians had to give up their claims to most of East Jerusalem and forfeit their Right of Return, and in return Palestinians would “gain” a non-contiguous state on parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, or the whole Clinton-Barak offer had to be rejected outright; which he did.

    https://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story416.html

  107. The Israeli right wingers are much like their American brethren. Scared to death of anything that moves and doesn’t look like them. Fear mongering works extremely well on these types of individuals, generally works pretty good on normies as well. Fascist demagogues like Netanyahu and Trump use this to their advantage, and it works, no doubt. Nothing scarier than a Radical Islamic Terrorist, nigger or a communist right?

    I recommend anyone interested in understanding Israeli politics and society to watch David Sheens presentations on youtube. He does a really good job at explaining it. Really opened my eyes when I first started learning about these things. He really destroys the whole Israel narrative we’ve been fed here in the US. Show his videos to any of your friends that still believe the MSM Israel narratives.

    This is his newest presentation, he has many, you should watch them all if you’re interested.

  108. @Just passing through

    What is an Israeli? A Jew? I’m starting to think it’s a LOT more complicated than most of us have imagined for the past couple centuries.

    I am often amazed by how much word roots tell us about where our ancient ancestors traveled and who they were.

    I’ve been reading various things that are making me wonder if ancient Israelites of the Bible were the Gallic/Celtic people that ancient texts refer to and whose artifacts have been found from Anatolia/Turkey to Iberia to Central Europe to the British Isles… leaving lingual clues along the way.

    Some examples I happen to have available to post here right now (there are lots of others):

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/25/science/archaeologists-find-celts-in-unlikely-spot-turkey.html

    https://phys.org/news/2019-12-unique-perspective-prehistorical-migration-linguistics.html

    https://www.british-israel.us/198.html — Good one for a fascinating collection of words that suggest the “Gauls” were originally refugees/exiles from slavery and war and domination. (Don’t really know what to make of the rest of the site.)

    Maybe it’s possible for people to at least give up fighting about heritage, since we don’t even understand most of what actually happened such a long time ago.

  109. @AaronB

    It was never clear what Arafat walked away from. But Clinton admitted that he was shocked that Arafat claimed there no Jewish temples under Al Aqsa . From the insiders point of view, it is not so much the refugee problem. The Palestinian leadership refuses to accept the sovereignty of Israel as the Jewish state, they think they will be killed as it is just not an acceptable Islamic stance, and as important they refuse to sign off on the end of conflict. Like if Israeli makes concessions, they can come back in two years and demand more, peace means piece by piece. Basically Israelis felt totally snookered as the Palestinians would negotiate like they were going to make a deal with borders etc. But the iron clad truth is that Islam will not allow any leader to acknowledge that Israel is the Jewish state.
    The Muslim Suni countires are pretty much there. I think they will do it. But to the Islamist and Shia it is Al Quds!!! Liberate Al Quds. It is really like a video game. The curtain will drop but not until the current leaders like Abbas and Hamas are dead.
    And if you asked AS he would he might equivocate but he probably thinks there are no Jewish temples there. It is like a fantasy as you say.

    • Thanks: AaronB
    • Replies: @AaronB
  110. @geokat62

    Maybe I am not totally sure about that I thought they did. If not why did they kill Sadat. He went to Israel and pretty much embraced the Jews. I thought he had stated that Israel is the Jewish state.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  111. What is an Israeli? A Jew? A Celt? I’m starting to think it’s a LOT more complicated than most of us have imagined for the past couple centuries.

    I’m often amazed by how much word roots tell us about where our ancient ancestors traveled and who they were.

    I’ve been reading various things that are making me wonder if ancient Israelites of the Bible were the Gallic/Celtic people that ancient texts refer to and whose artifacts have been found from Anatolia/Turkey to Iberia to Central Europe to the Pyrenees to the British Isles… who left a lot of lingual clues as they moved around.

    Some examples I happen to have available to post here right now (there are lots of others):

    https://phys.org/news/2019-12-unique-perspective-prehistorical-migration-linguistics.html

    https://www.british-israel.us/198.html — Good one for a fascinating collection of words that suggest the “Gauls” were originally refugees/exiles from slavery and war and domination. (Don’t really know what to make of the rest of the site.)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/25/science/archaeologists-find-celts-in-unlikely-spot-turkey.html

    Maybe it’s possible for people to at least give up fighting about heritage, since we don’t even understand most of what actually happened such a long time ago.

    • Thanks: Kali
  112. AaronB says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Right, it will happen it will just take time.

    Right now we are still in Islam version 1.0 – this was a good version from the 8th century until the 16th century. Its level of aggression was well adapted to the way the world was during that period.

    But we are waiting for Islam 2.0 – the level of aggression of Islam 1.0 is leading to fratricide and all sorts of turmoil in today’s Muslim world.

    But it takes some time.

  113. @sally

    How is it possible that the complete contradiction between the 16th Amendment and the Constitution and its fundamental intention has been overlooked for over 100 years?

    Some of the most passionate advocates of the U.S. Constitution I’ve ever known are Jewish.

    They would passionately support the abolition of the 16th if any effort to do so were under way.

    Maybe it’s possible to focus public awareness on the duty we have as citizens of the United States to protect and defend the Constitution against the 16th Amendment (and all other actual and potential violations).

    I’m already persuaded by the evidence that the 16th was never ratified. I’m trying to find a link to information about a Congressman who fought it back when it was pushed through. Not finding. I think his last name started with Mac.

  114. @AaronB

    AnonStarter blandly assures us periodically that Israel’s time for voluntarily surrendering is running out, and any day now the Muslims will really get mad.

    Remember that old joke about how you can tell if a lawyer is lying?

    Sure, you do.

    Incidentally, Ze’ev Maoz, former head of the Graduate School of Government and Policy and of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, former academic director of the M.A. Program at the Israeli Defense Forces’ National Defense College, and current Professor of Political Science at the University of California, Davis, informs us that not a single war Israel has fought since 1948 was a war of necessity:

    Defending the Holy Land: A Critical Analysis of Israel’s Security and Foreign Policy

    Demonstrating that Israel’s national security policy rested on the shaky pairing of a trigger-happy approach to the use of force with a hesitant and reactive peace diplomacy, Defending the Holy Land recounts in minute-by-minute detail how the ascendancy of Israel’s security establishment over its foreign policy apparatus led to unnecessary wars and missed opportunites for peace.

    A scathing and brilliant revisionist history, Defending the Holy Land calls for sweeping reform of Israel’s foreign policy and national security establishments. This book will fundamentally transform the way readers think about Israel’s troubled history.

    Powerful stuff. You can find a used copy online as cheaply as six bucks, or if that’s too much for you, try procuring one through your local library. (For other readers, if there isn’t a copy at your local library, request one.)

    Mo’az also has a very convincing argument against Israel’s policy of amimut, as well. Personally, I find him far more persuasive than Beres:

    https://basicint.org/why-the-israeli-policy-of-nuclear-ambiguity-is-harmful-for-prospects-of-a-wmd-free-zone-in-the-middle-east/

    Ditto for Shlomo Ben-Ami, who participated directly in the 2000-1 peace negotiations with Arafat and blamed Israelis themselves for their failure:

    The Myth of the Generous Offer

    “Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks,” Ha’aretz noted in its introduction, “will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement.” At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine’s borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals–in other words, counteroffers–showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

    In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel’s Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. “The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted,” Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01). [emphasis added]

    In any event, keep up the good work, Aaron. Break that cycle of hate.

    ROFL!

    • Thanks: Kali
  115. @AnonStarter

    Edit: Misspelled “Ma’oz” above.

  116. @AaronB

    ‘… Right now we are still in Islam version 1.0 – this was a good version from the 8th century until the 16th century. Its level of aggression was well adapted to the way the world was during that period…’

    Given ‘The King’s Torah,’ etc, what version of Judaism would we be on? Looking at ultra-Orthodox Jewish behavior, reproduction patterns, etc, what century would you say Judaism is about ready for?

    What was the last great advance in Judaism? The Kabbalah? Schneerson’s claim that the Jew is the end all else serves?

    Think maybe you’re about ready to leap into the Bronze Age? Come up with improved chickens for swinging around your heads?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Fran Taubman
  117. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    I don’t agree with either of those guys, but I’m happy we’re able to produce self-critical voices like this on a regular basis. Its pretty cool.

    You may not believe it now, AS, but you Muslims will eventually develop the self confidence to start producing self-critical voices as well – and they won’t be intimidated or killed, like now. The people will understand their value. When that happens, it will be a happy day for the Middle East and we Israelis will rejoice with you. You’ll have grown up.

    As far as I remember, we discussed Ben Ami and it turned out his position was far more nuanced, and that he claimed the Palestinians were insisting on the right to settle in Israel en masse.

    As for Maoz, thanks – I will check it out. It sounds like a book I will definitely learn something from. I won’t agree with him, but there are bound to be some fascinating facts that add nuance and complexity to my understanding of the history.

    I am quite prepared to believe that the Israelis were not angels – who is? I only make the much more modest claim that on the whole, they are more right than wrong. Of course, I think the Palestinians also have some degree of right on their side.

    One day, Muslims will develop to the point where they are capable of this kind of nuance and this level of justice for their opponents – it may seem impossible to you now, but I have a high opinion of the potential of Islamic civilization.

  118. @sally

    It was Louis McFadden, and was about the Federal Reserve Act, not the 16th Amendment.

    http://libertyforlife.com/banking/us-mcfadden-re-frb.htm

  119. @AaronB

    “…we are waiting for Islam 2.0…”

    And Christianity 2.0, and Judaism 2.0, etc.

  120. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    The mystical Hasidic revival was the last great positive development of Judaism. It restored a much needed emotional element and an emphasis on joy. The Kabbalah was introduced in the 12th century, and while instrumental in Hasidism, isn’t really widely known.

    I’m optimistic Sufis will upgrade Islam into its next iteration and introduce a more mystic sensibility into the mainstream, like happened in Judaism.

    The Koranic notion that Muslims are commanded to conquer and subdue Jews and Christians, the source of its fight with Israel, is really rather odd for a religion – I see it as a holdover from the Arabs primitive pagan past, or possibly borrowed from the many empires the first Muslims were surrounded with. It is basic imperialism, and may have been imported from Persia or Byzantium and put in a religious setting.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  121. @AaronB

    Um, Dubai has a higher standard of living than Israel. I’m not condemning Jews, I have nothing against them one way or the other, but Israel has some poverty and run-of-the-mill social problems like drugs and street crime. Not as much as Baltimore or Detroit, but your average Emirate driving h is Mercedes if better off than your average Israeli.

    Part of it is just draconian police tactics. Form a street gang and attempt to sell drugs in Dubai or Qatar and you’re going away for about 30 years.

    Another part of it is dictatorial paternalism. If your daughter is locked up and she cannot go out she will never get pregnant and be a single mother and get into drugs and sell her body on the street. A problem more common in Western Civilization-which Jews belong to by default-than in Dubai.

    There is also the windfall of oil. But at any rate, Gulf Arab countries have an equal or higher standard of living than Israel. Per capita is probably higher.

    For that matter, Muslims in the US are not poor. Jewish Americans have their fair share of poverty in places like Brooklyn or the Bronx.

    • Agree: Assad al-islam
  122. @AaronB

    The Muslim dudes read out dissenters and say see!! Where are the Islamic dissenters writing about how fucked up Islam and Arafat were. Dead!! via Charlie Hebdo the last man standing after the cartoon of the prophet. If not dead there is the Fatwah on Salamon Rushdie’s by Khomeni in Iran. Rushdie went into hiding for years.
    None of Israeli’s wars were necessary Oy vey. Four standing armies. If Israel had lost they wouldn’t be saying that those wars were unnecessary. If Israel had lost there would not be a Jew left any where and they would still be tracking us down.

    Not until I got on UR and thought I could have a serious discussion did I realize the depth of the one track Muslim mind with thick white lines on each side of the lane with a do not cross sign. All Jews are corrupted versions of the goodness of Islam.

    I believe Bill Clinton when he said it was Arafat’s fault, and Clinton met with Arafat more then any other world leader. Maybe the commentators on UR are young, but I was around then. The pressure to settle on Israel was enormous, and back then there was no right wing any where near power. Israel was left and then more left. The right emerged after the peace attempts failed. Peoples entire careers were on the line for the sake of peace. The religious right said all along that it was a religious war and the Islam would never accept the Jewish presence there.. And they were correct. The religious Jews said not one square inch should be negotiated, they saw clear as day that it was all a trap.

    I was left of left back then. I would have given away everything. I thought give the Palestinians whatever they want they are the victims.

    Then I woke up one day like I was in Troy the day after the horse arrived, and discovered my house was on fire. The second intifada was so vicious. I get it. We all get it.

    • LOL: Zumbuddi
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @geokat62
  123. @Colin Wright

    Think maybe you’re about ready to leap into the Bronze Age? Come up with improved chickens for swinging around your heads?

    Why don’t you leap in the bronze age Colin and never come back. What version are you on. -1 heading for 0. The original cut and past man. Not an original thought in his head. What are your reproductive patterns Colin what numerical value?

    Here is a book title for you and AS.

    Defending the Holy Land: A Critical Analysis of Islam’s religious perspective and Foreign Policy Failures

  124. @AaronB

    ‘…The Koranic notion that Muslims are commanded to conquer and subdue Jews and Christians, the source of its fight with Israel, is really rather odd for a religion…’

    Nothing remotely equivalent in Judaism.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @AaronB
  125. @AaronB

    I don’t agree with either of those guys, but I’m happy we’re able to produce self-critical voices like this on a regular basis.

    It’s only a natural reaction to zionism. How couldn’t you produce such voices like this on a regular basis?

    As far as I remember, we discussed Ben Ami and it turned out his position was far more nuanced, and that he claimed the Palestinians were insisting on the right to settle in Israel en masse.

    Unfortunately, your track record for remembering details has proven wanting. You’re welcome to provide the information again, if you’d like. No problem for me, but I think you’re referring to a statement that pertains to another context.

    I only make the much more modest claim that on the whole, they are more right than wrong.

    That isn’t a “much more modest claim.” It’s the only claim that matters.

    I give you full credit for your efforts. You’ve truly elevated offensive condescension to an art, and I can’t help but respect the skill with which you operate. Netanyahu himself would be a potzer not to retain your services and give you a lifetime sinecure.

    But … no thank you, I won’t return it in kind. I much prefer dealing with you as an adult. That way, I’ve got nothing to make me lose sleep at night.

    Take care.

  126. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…All Jews are corrupted versions of the goodness of Islam…’

    It really doesn’t occur to you that this is considerably more flattering than the opinions you yourself have expressed about Muslims?

    You’re a piece of work, Fran.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  127. @IT'S ME

    Thank you, but alas this does not appear to have the appendix I am curious about. It does refer to it. In the preface, page x, Wilkins writes:

    “Lady Burton had The Jew next on her list for publication at the time of her death… But in the exercise of discretion given to me, I have thought it better to hold over for the present the Appendix on the alleged rite of Human Sacrifice among the Sephardim and the murder of Padre Tomaso.”

    I heard about a subset of Ashkenazi Jews doing this kind of stuff and, along with the rumor that Burton’s original notes on this general matter were absconded, it got me wondering. Oh well.

    Veritas filia Temporis (Truth is the daughter of Time)

    Now, just for the purpose of test marketing, who wants to buy a Netanyahu dart board?

    • Replies: @IT'S ME
  128. @Fran Taubman

    Fran,

    Jericho had a new casino built that I toured with Palestinian, as part of an economic plan

    WTF?!? The first thing a Jew thinks of is vacuuming up their victims’ monies. And then they can look down all smug on the poor shits for parting with their hard earned cash, and be like “aren’t they stupid believing and handing it to us”. And if the casino don’t get you, some investment scheme will, or the stock markets they run and rig in their favour, or the bank you trust with your saving or get conned into taking out a loan from, or … if all fails, some outright Jewish robbery.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  129. Wielgus says:
    @Nonny Mouse

    Not having vowel signs is easier to achieve with Semitic languages, which are built around triconsonantal roots. Even then, vowel signs and then letters for vowels had to be developed eventually to avoid ambiguity.
    Non-Semitic languages have even less ability to dispense with vowel indicators although some like the Chinese do without alphabets or any kind of phonetic writing system altogether.

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  130. This is why Gilad, and respect for your music. I myself am a Professional Audioengineer , Producer and Singer.

    Watch Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s full speech to Congress

    • LOL: Assad al-islam
    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  131. They are proud of their Bibi and his ability to puppeteer world leaders. He bonds with the Diaspora and the Lobby, he also manages to keep American taxpayers’ dollars flowing. Bibi, as far as they can tell, is the best thing that happened in modern Jewish history.

    If anyone believes that, they need their heads to be examined as it the other way around. It is Bibi who is the puppet of both USA and Russia. I thought, the 29 standing ovations was to inflate the balloon for a slight prick but I was wrong. The balloon keeps on being inflated and it appears it will burst itself due to over pumping the air in it.

    Look at reality on the ground. What has Trump given to Netanyahu but empty gesture, especially the so called, “Deal of the Century”. I love Trump’s honesty, no more negotiations as what good they have done so far. Or Trump saying that USA is stealing Syrian Oil. The Shia Crescent is very, very strong and Iran is at the doorsteps of Israel, and believe me it is just for nothing.

    The Muslims are never been so united. The Islamic History is slowly, slowly being corrected to the real Shia History. It cannot be done overnight, just like the Germany’s History of both the World Wars. The Caliphate is thrown under the bus, as it no longer considered the backbone of Islam. Who wants to give up their crown, not even Sisi. The Muslims have never been so united. One needs to listen the Arabic Preachers slowly, slowly correcting the Islamic History. You have to know Arabic, live in the Middle East and know Islam inside and out to understand the changes taking place.

    As Sayyid (meaning Arab, nor Iranian) Ruhollah Imam Khomeini said that 70 years is a page in the History of Mankind. How spot on he is to his prediction, that today Iran is openly threatening annihilation of the State of Israel. It has been more than a year with Israel having no government. A caretaker PM forever…. Go figure!

  132. @Wielgus

    Not having vowel signs is easier to achieve with Semitic languages, which are built around triconsonantal roots. Even then, vowel signs and then letters for vowels had to be developed eventually to avoid ambiguity.

    Very true! When the Holy Quran was revealed the vowel signs, the letters for vowels, and the dots for constant letters were introduced to avoid ambiguity. It is called, Quranic Classical Arabic and this is the miracle of Prophet Mohammad (saws), a living Quran which can be still seen today. Only linguistics in Arabic language can write Quran Classical Arabic as they are highly educated in Arabic language which is taught only in Universities. The average Arab still today cannot write in Quranic Classical Arabic and he/she use the regular old Arabic to write.

    During 12th to 15th centuries, from the Quranic Classical Arabic, the vowels signs were added to written Hebrew language and the Torah/TaNaKh were then corrected. Only left out were the vowels in YHWH as till today, Jews write the noun (not proper noun) as G-d without vowel. So YHWH is not God’s name as He is no one’s property. Adding vowels to YHWH it becomes YaHuWah (O’ He).

    In the late 18th century the dead spoken Hebrew was revived from Arabic. Go figure!

  133. geokat62 says:
    @Nonny Mouse

    So it was very reasonable for the earliest alphabets to skip the vowels. NO alphabet has successfully included vowel characters.

    From wiki:

    The first fully phonemic script, the Proto-Canaanite script, later known as the Phoenician alphabet, is considered to be the first alphabet, and is the ancestor of most modern alphabets, including Arabic, Greek, Latin, Cyrillic, Hebrew, and possibly Brahmic. Peter T. Daniels, however, distinguishes… an abjad, in which letters predominantly or exclusively represent consonants (as in the original Phoenician, Hebrew or Arabic), and an “alphabet”, a set of graphemes that represent both vowels and consonants. In this narrow sense of the word the first “true” alphabet was the Greek alphabet

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  134. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    I believe Bill Clinton when he said it was Arafat’s fault…

    Did you also believe him. Fran, when he reassured everyone he “did not have sexual relations with that woman”? lol

  135. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    I thought he had stated that Israel is the Jewish state.

    Ah, no he did not. It took a few more decades before that card was played. First the world was told to recognize the state of Israel. Then the world was told to recognize Israel as the Jewish state. Nice progression, huh Fran?

  136. @Commentator Mike

    It was a Palestinian casino their idea, not ours.

  137. @geokat62

    Good one. Unfortunately Nonny is missing a fee vowels him/herself in attempt to sound intelligent with answers especially the history if the Jews, who is Jewish (the current residents armrest fake) and his favorite subject Logos. A vowel a minute Nonny.

  138. geokat62 says:

    Oh, look. Former congresswoman, Cynthia MxKinney, addresses an audience on the topic of, THE PLEDGE TO ISRAEL:

    Description:

    Cynthia McKinney speaking about the pledge needs to be taken to get significant funding for national election campaigns. Israel’s hold on Washington D.C. is overwhelming.

    ———————————-
    For others who dared to speak out against the Israel lobby, see the following links:
    Congressman Paul Findley – https://youtu.be/ qBsrVbSyBRo

    Congressman Gus Savage – https://youtu.be/ zQP8V-kZ2EQ

    Former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky – https:// youtu.be/Mj4aq9EANhE

    Former Israeli politician Shulamit Aloni – https:// youtu.be/7BEVLD6YHsc

    Senator Charles “Chuck” Percy & Undersecretary of State George Ball – https://youtu.be/wgaNmGydB5Y

    Sure looks like an honest woman to me. But, what do I know? I’m just a dumb goy!

  139. @Fran Taubman

    Casinos – yeah, like Indians on their reservations. Maybe Gaza can one day be Las Vegas by the sea.

  140. Now WHO moves like an Benjamin?

    • Replies: @BDS Always
  141. @Colin Wright

    Nothing remotely equivalent in Judaism.

    This is a good example of the psychological projection that is the hallmark of zionists.

    The Prophet established a federal constitutional republic in Medina, one in which Jews enjoyed full rights of religious liberty. Abdullah ibn Salaam, the most learned rabbi among them, became Muslim upon recognizing Muhammad’s fulfillment of Torah prophecy. The available record shows us, however, that this wasn’t good enough for most of them. Too egalitarian. This couldn’t possibly be the Shiloh of Genesis 49: 10. So they decided to take the path of aggression and the rest is history.

    The actual imperative to which Aaron alludes was sent down not long before the Prophet passed on. A Muslim emissary had been murdered by a vassal of Byzantium and this compelled the Muslims to prepare for war. It’s decidedly conditional, one applied in analogous circumstances. Now, given the rapid territorial expansion of Islam, this may not seem to be the case, but we have to understand that warfare in the seventh century was a zero-sum game. It isn’t as though Byzantium was willing to capitulate. They didn’t, of course, and the Muslims simply did what they had to do.

    What guys like Aaron do is project their understanding of Judaism upon Islam. Everything he says about Islam’s command is, in fact, what his own religion commands. It’s the same thing with Talmudic imperatives for lying, which he practices with perfect aplomb in this very thread, attributing to me statements I’ve never made.

    I suppose I should be bothered, but I’m not. It just provides an opportunity to clarify my position, so I’m grateful for it.

    • Agree: BDS Always
  142. @Colin Wright

    It really doesn’t occur to you that this is considerably more flattering than the opinions you yourself have expressed about Muslims?

    You’re a piece of work, Fran.

    Breathtaking Colin simply breathtaking. I have never said anything bad about Muslims. Why would I? Muslims are people like everyone else. I am critical of Islam for it’s inability to be critical of itself. Islam’s inability to self reflect and solve problems. It’s supremacist ideas that it is the only true path to Allah and everyone else is an infidel. Its inability to reconcile with capitalist Western societies and democracies.
    You cannot criticize Islam from within without getting beheaded, or chopped into pieces. Don’t you find the odd, or at best a barrier for peace.
    But you are worried about more important things like swinging chickens.

    Were you at Tabba for negotiations Colin? I feel you must have been like Woody Allen leaning on some diplomat wispering some important breathtaking thoughts that encapsulate your big brain.
    You are such an expert on negotiating peace with Islamist. Was that a side to your moving career? Are you a diplomat in your fantasies. Are you the smartest man in the room when the lights are out? I bet you are. Tell me more about your breathtaking fantasy intellectual life. Tell me more.

    Getting …. to …. know …… you. Getting …. to …. know all about you……

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  143. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Breathtaking Colin simply breathtaking. I have never said anything bad about Muslims. Why would I? ‘

    This is like your claim that you never insult people. Somebody bothered to go back and collect all the examples of you insulting people. Two pages of stuff, if iI recall…

    Should I bother to do the same for your abuse of Muslims? Would there be a point?

  144. @AaronB

    AnonStarter blandly assures us periodically that Israel’s time for voluntarily surrendering is running out, and any day now the Muslims will really get mad.

    Not surprisingly, I haven’t done this.

    What I have done is allude to demographic shifts in America and Palestine that favor a political sea-change from the status quo as well as the trajectory of the BDS movement’s influence:

    There is, of course, an omnipresent element of unpredictability, which is why Israel maintains its amimut and uses its foot soldiers in America to aggressively undermine the First Amendment. It’s odd that a champion boxer should so feel so threatened by a 100-pound nerd.

    I seem to recall a similar account in Scripture … Something about a young man named David … Had the nerve to take on a bully many times his size.

    Rather prescient, don’t you think?

  145. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

    So, there isn’t anything in Judaism comparable to this. Jews were allowed one conquest – the land of Israel. The purpose was a national home – not to subdue others. And the purpose was a secure place to practice Judaism – not subduing others or forcing submission from others.

    And it was all time and context specific – not an open ended war against unbelievers.

    There is also nothing comparable to the institution of the Dhimmi – instead, resident aliens are supposed to be given special consideration. They are one of the four main category of unfortunate people.

    There is plenty in Judaism that doesn’t square with modern liberal sensitivities, but this idea of subduing non believers is peculiar to Islam.

    Now, I’m not trying to be particularly hard on Islam and anything negative I can say about it can be balanced with some very positive things.

    And again, all this stuff has to be judged in its context – in an age of empires and conquest, Islam’s position was not especially severe, and perfectly understandable.

    Lots of things in the Old Testament only make sense in the context of a very violent Bronze Age world, and the concept of spiritual evolution – mankind as on a spiritual journey – is key to making sense of the Bible, where the early parts describe violence and the latter parts talk about the lamb and the lion laying down together and the abolition of war. It’s because it’s tracing a journey.

    So it’s certainly silly to just condemn Islam in a stupid manner – but Islam has not yet fully had its “Prophets” period, where the early violence is superseded in the course of spiritual evolution.

    And that is precisely the next stage of Islam, I believe. Remember, Judaism is roughly 2,000 years older than Islam.

  146. anonymous[549] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fran Taubman

    “… their idea, not OURS.”

    Who is “ours,” Israeli?

    Thought you said you were American.

    Which is it?

  147. @AaronB

    ‘“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

    So, there isn’t anything in Judaism comparable to this. Jews were allowed one conquest – the land of Israel…’

    Actually, they’re to have everything between the Euphrates and the Nile, if I recall aright.

    Somebody posted a nice collation of all the genocidal prescriptions in the Torah. I don’t suppose it’d do much good to go find it and repost it, would it?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  148. @AaronB

    ‘“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

    So, there isn’t anything in Judaism comparable to this. Jews were allowed one conquest – the land of Israel…’

    Actually, they’re to have everything between the Euphrates and the Nile, if I recall aright.

    Somebody posted a nice collation of all the genocidal prescriptions in the Torah. I don’t suppose it’d do much good to go find it and repost it, would it?

    …of course, you’re right. There is a difference. As you say, the non-Muslims are to be subdued. The non-Jews are to be exterminated.

  149. @AaronB

    The below is a standard miss interpretation of quranic versus by the likes of Rabid Zionist Pam Spencer, Horrowitz, Shilman etc..

    Does not take much effort to debunk this Bollocks by the Hasbara Zionist Turd Polishers. If only we took the time to learn what is factual and not distortions.

    Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah (tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Qur’an 9:73—O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

    These verses are also historical in context. They are about the Battles of Mu’tah and Tabûk.

    These verse were in reference to The Byzantine Empire instigating war against the Muslims. They murdered an ambassador of the Prophet (pbuh), who was carrying a message to the ruler of Busra. The Chosroe of Persia even ordered his commander in Yemen to kill the Prophet, and they mobilized their forces to fight the Prophet. The Muslims confronted them.

    There are many people who throw hissy fits about the Jizyah (a tax on non-Muslims living under the protection of a Muslim authority), mentioned in 9:29, saying that it is discriminatory. But the truth is that Muslims are not exempt from taxes, they just go by a different term.

    The tax collected from non-Muslims is only imposed on adult males. It exempts them from military service; affords them protection under the law; and freedom to practice their religion. And Muslim taxes go to welfare programs.

    Also, in the same chapter (9) Verse 6 God tells the Muslims:

    And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

    Was not Muslims who forced, Income Tax, Inheritance Tax, Road Tax, Water Tax, Property Tax, and all the rest of the Taxes forced upon us to fleece us out of our money.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AnonStarter
    , @Seraphim
  150. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Sure, the OT has some brutal stuff. The Bronze Age was a brutal time – it was common for entire cities to be put to the sword and sold into slavery.

    That was mankind’s level of spiritual development back then. Working with that, the Old Testament sets in motion a narrative of spiritual development that is supposed to culminate in peace on earth and the abolition of war. Step one was to work within the brutal system them prevailing and conquer a piece of land from which to spread these ideas.

    The Old Testament introduced the idea of historical development – history having a purpose and mankind a goal. Everyone else thought time was cyclical. As a general principle any idea or event in the Old Testament had to be seen in relation to its place and purpose within this grand narrative.

    So the issue isn’t whether Islam has some difficult or harsh sayings or aspects – that’s perfectly ok. The question is does Islam see mankind as on a journey, and it’s harsh sayings only preliminary time dependent ideas that are only a stage on a path.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  151. AaronB says:
    @BDS Always

    Thanks. For me, the significant thing here is that Muslims are beginning to interpret these verses the way you have just described.

    And that is excellent news and shows that Islam is moving in the right direction, and the direction that I am predicting it will move in its next stage.

    At this point, historically the way Islam interpreted these verses, and whether the verses actually have that context, is not so significant, at least at the moment. There are tons of very thorough discussions online for those interested.

    The important thing is for me is to see Islam in dynamic terms, as what it is becoming – because everything living is becoming something.

  152. @Dr. E. Black

    Geert Wilders exposed as an anti-Muslim Zionist shill and agent of Israel : Exposing pro-Israel Zionist Geert Wilders, a descendant of European Jews who demonises Muslims and frames Israel’s colonial and expansionist wars in the Middle East as part of an existential clash of civilisations.

    Much like other Zionist propagandists, such as Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders has lunatic ideas of his own. Geert Wilders believes the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the appropriation of all Palestinian land and the mass displacement of its people to the Kingdom of Jordan.

    With this much support and fervour for the Zionist agenda, one wonders whether Geert Wilders’ true allegiance lies with the Dutch people or in the Israeli colonial and apartheid state thousands of miles away from the Netherlands.

    Also, it is interesting to notice how Geert Wilders travels around parroting the same lines of Zionist propaganda you would hear from Netanyahu and other apologists for the colonial state of Israel. Being a hasbara agent must be boring and involve a lot of brainwashing preparation.

    Wilders implicated in the below.
    http://whale.to/c/child_sacrificemurder_by_queen.html

    http://whale.to/c/child_sacrificemurder_by_queen.html

  153. @AaronB

    ‘… So the issue isn’t whether Islam has some difficult or harsh sayings or aspects – that’s perfectly ok. The question is does Islam see mankind as on a journey, and it’s harsh sayings only preliminary time dependent ideas that are only a stage on a path.’

    You offer, of course, absolutely no evidence that Judaism is any different.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  154. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Well, its right there on the Old Testament. The Prophets, towards the end of the book are describing history as a moral arc and humanity as moving towards a specific moral destiny.

    Now, I actually don’t think Islam is different – I think it’s harsh early sayings are also just a stage on a spiritual journey and shouldn’t be seen as “final”.

    Perhaps one can see it this way – Islam was a young religion competing with old established religions like Judaism, it’s main inspiration, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism, etc. Also Hinduism and Buddhism on its eastern periphery.

    It needed to buy time and space to survive, so at that point in its development it had to adopt an imperial attitude – especially as it was surrounded by empires, it may have seemed the natural, or even only, way to go about securing a future for itself.

    Because Islam too has a message for the world, and has to establish a beachhead from which it can propagate its message, which is not so different from Judaism.

    None of this is bad – it’s quite innocent. But today, ideas that were good for back then are self destructive – so we are ready for an upgrade.

    • Troll: Assad al-islam
  155. @Dr. E. Black

    Watch Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s full speech to Congress

    I thought, the 29 standing ovations was to inflate the balloon for a slight prick but I was wrong. The balloon keeps on being inflated and it appears it will burst itself due to over pumping the air in it.

    The Jewish Power and their faulty morals are out in open. Netanyahu, Jews, AIPAC, ADL and so forth are all in open now for the world to cringe about. Israel is without proper government for more than a year now, a PM with no real powers, along with Trump’s empty gestures. Iran is at Israel’s doorsteps and the writing is on the walls.

    There are very, very few, almost negligible numbers who are meek and humble. The vast, vast majority of Jews are cocky, arrogant and haughty like you. Of course, the Islamic stories differs. The Jinns (not Hollywood) are one of the many, many intelligent creations like Inns (humans). When God told the angels to prostrate to Adam, Iblis refused. God asked him why you refused?

    His answer, “I am a Jinn and created with fire, where Adam is Ins (human) created with dust, so I am better than Adam and cannot prostrate to someone who is inferior to me.”. God told Iblis that you are arrogant and haughty.

    The whole world including Jews and Israel knows that their days are numbered as the writing is on the walls. But the Jews, haughtiness makes them blind to reality throughout the history. Same reason for the fall of satan, over and over and over…..

  156. @AaronB

    ‘…Well, its right there on the Old Testament. The Prophets, towards the end of the book are describing history as a moral arc and humanity as moving towards a specific moral destiny…’

    I’m sorry, but this is the most wretched bullshit.

    First off, it’s always God issuing these genocidal prescriptions. No one’s saying ‘well, God used to be a real juvenile delinquent but now he’s all grown up and got benevolent.’ No — it’s all still viewed as valid. No one’s saying ‘oh, the bad bits aren’t true any more.’ They’re all seen as truth.

    Second, it wasn’t awful Bronze Ago folks hearing God saying this. None of the Bible can reasonably be dated before about 600 BC or so — it’s all Persian and Hellenistic in provenance. So these people who dreamed it up were real Jews, and they really meant it.

    …and — as Israel’s behavior demonstrates — they still do.

    And you yourself realize how vile your faith is. Else you wouldn’t have to pretend it’s something other than what it is.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Fran Taubman
  157. @BDS Always

    Thank you for posting this.

    Another verse that merits mention:

    Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Surely, God does not love aggressors. [2: 190]

    It’s a standing imperative in Islam, one which must be taken into consideration when understanding 9: 29, which, as you’ve correctly stated, is context dependent, and given the well established history of zionist initiation and perpetuation of hostilities in Palestine, Palestinians are within their right to follow this imperative.

    In war, one party always prevails and invariably subdues the vanquished, be it Jews or Muslims, and history has also shown us that Muslims have proven themselves far more equitable and humane as the dominant party:

    So, what did Muslims do for the Jews?

    Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth. The argument for it is double. First, in 570 CE, when the Prophet Mohammad was born, the Jews and Judaism were on the way to oblivion. And second, the coming of Islam saved them, providing a new context in which they not only survived, but flourished, laying foundations for subsequent Jewish cultural prosperity – also in Christendom – through the medieval period into the modern world.

    Dhimmi simply means “protected,” which is what Jews are in dar al-Islam. As you mentioned, those who paid the jizya — which was typically less than the zakat given by Muslims — were exempt from military service and protected in their religious liberty. While the application of shari’ah in this respect was not always perfect in the millennial span of Muslim suzerainty. it set a historical precedent among world religions for safeguarding the rights of minority groups.

    When comparing Islam to Judaism, the real litmus test is Christianity.

    In Islam, Christians are also a protected class, accorded the same rights as Jews. Yet by virtue of their violating the first Noahide Law, Christians are not considered to be a ger toshav (lawful resident alien) in traditional Judaism:

    Do not allow them to reside in your land, since they may then make you sin to Me. You may even end up worshiping their gods, and it will be a fatal trap to you. [Exodus 23:33]

    When God your Lord places them at your disposal and you defeat them, you must utterly destroy them, not making any treaty with them or giving them any consideration (in Hebrew, ‘lo techonem’ is interpreted as ‘do not give them a resting place’). Do not intermarry with them… [If you do], they will lead your children away from Me, causing them to worship other gods.” [Deuteronomy 7: 2-4]

    To be fair, the Halakha does include provisions for allowing Christians to reside among Jews, but it’s worth noting that, historically, these provisions were either authored while Jews resided in dar al-Islam — as in the case of Maimonides — or they consist of modern interpretations of earlier provisions authored after their residence in dar al-Islam.

    Furthermore — and this is the key distinction — those provisions are temporal.

    Maimonides himself wrote that when Gentiles predominate (‘yad ha’goyim tikifa aleinu’), Jews are prevented from fulfilling the good deed (mitzvah) of expelling Gentiles from among them. [Rambam, Laws of Avodah Zara 10:6] This and other provisions originated in later generations, as a consequence of the Jewish experience in dar al-Islam.

    They do not, however, abrogate the original mitzvah of the Torah. As such, when conditions allow for it, it becomes obligatory for Jews to carry out said expulsion.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @AaronB
  158. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    Okay, so lets say you’re right, and I’m completely misrepresenting Judaism and it’s nothing like what I say. Its really this evil, awful thing.

    You gotta admit that my version is pretty appealing – sure, its not Judaism and no Jews believe my version, but it’s a pretty decent version, based on your own words – at least, that’s the implication of your words.

    So this faux-Judaism that no one ever believed in and I just made, it ain’t so bad.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  159. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    One quibble. Are you suggesting that Deuteronomy was discussing Christians, who didn’t exist yet?

    As for Islam, thank you for your explanation – very appealing and attractive, and very sympathetic. I hope that your explanation becomes widespread in the Muslim world.

    Its good that Muslims are today thinking this way, and someone like you can make a significant contribution to world peace by helping to spread this message in both the Muslim world and the wider world.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
    , @Colin Wright
  160. @AaronB

    Are you suggesting that Deuteronomy was discussing Christians, who didn’t exist yet?

    As you know full well, that would be irrelevant, since Christians have been regarded by numerous rabbinical authorities as idolaters, and thus, the verses would apply to them analogically.

    I’ll grant that, since their time in dar al-Islam, Jews have been compelled time and again to reconsider their religion and rationalize their way out of its harsher and less practical aspects. Were it otherwise, we wouldn’t have tomes upon tomes of responsa and such.

    But the phenomenon of so many disparate opinions — many of them dichotomous — is merely proof that whatever God originally gave to the Children of Israel has been lost. It makes no sense for God to remain unclear on such an important issue as idolatry. It makes perfect sense for men to remain unclear if others have falsified the Law, thereby causing confusion resulting in so many different opinions and lengthy peregrinations.

    I’m pleased to see that you’ve ditched the condescension for the time being (or so it seems). Would that you had shown the slightest hint of regret for telling lies about me earlier …

    • Replies: @AaronB
  161. @AaronB

    ‘…So this faux-Judaism that no one ever believed in and I just made, it ain’t so bad.’

    We could grant that, but it wouldn’t justify anything at all. No doubt you can dream up a religion that accords with contemporary ethical shibboleths. So? If Talha tries it too, and comes up with a better one, have we demonstrated anything?

  162. @AaronB

    ‘One quibble. Are you suggesting that Deuteronomy was discussing Christians, who didn’t exist yet?’

    Deuteronomy would seem to have been taken to apply to Christians. Witness the Mamilla Pool Massacre.

    But there. Perhaps that new, ethically improved Judaism of yours still hadn’t shown up by the seventh century A.D.

    …though funnily enough, some would insist it was just about to.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  163. @Colin Wright

    and you yourself realize how vile your faith is. Else you wouldn’t have to pretend it’s something other than what it is.

    Completely nonsensical as usual. If Judaism is so vile why is it the cornerstone for Christianity and Islam? It is the blueprint and backbone for those faiths. Don’t believe me listen to the prophets. Jesus was a Jew and when he was alive he practiced Judaism to the fullest. His last meal was at a Passover seder. He never denounced his religion.

    Mohammed was not a Jew but the entire religion of Islam is a cut and paste from Judaism with some intermingling of how Islam was really first, but hidden from view till Mohammed reveled it. He never denounced the Jewish god. According to the Q’uran Mohammed fulfilled the prophecy from Genesis, you know Genesis the creation of the world by juvenile god. That is where Mohammed gets his legitimacy. So the good guys Colin followed the bad guys and switched hats.

    The bible can reasonably be dated before about 600 BC or so — it’s all Persian and Hellenistic in provenance. So these people who dreamed it up were real Jews, and they really meant it.

    There are brilliant people that have pondered the issues of genocide in the OT and the deaths of children in Egypt. Moses questioned god. You are theological illiterate. If the Jews were committing genocide on their own without divine intervention, why would they write about it in a book that might make them look like mass murders? Not a very good look. Moses was in shock by the plaques imposed on Egypt, and was pissed face to face confrontation with god. Read Maimonides The Guide to the Perplexed.

    I believe that both Jesus and Mohammed were authentic prophets. For me Judaism was given a different path based on a direct revelation that occurred with the assistance of a prophet, as witnessed by an entire nation on Mt. Sinai. There is no other direct revelation by an entire nation in the history of the world. What happened on Mount Sinai imprinted on every Jew till eternity a path that cannot be altered. We are here to stay.

    Judaism is a force that started the entire ball of monotheism, and the advancement of humanity beyond barbarity.

  164. Seraphim says:
    @BDS Always

    BS as always when you talk about ‘Byzantines instigating war against the Muslims’.
    BS as always when any criticism of Islam is the feat of ‘Zionist shills’.

  165. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Judaism is a force that started the entire ball of monotheism, and the advancement of humanity beyond barbarity.’

    So much for the Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, Buddhists, ancient Greeks, and the Romans.

    That’s what I experienced when I visited Japan; rank barbarity.

    You do simplify things marvelously, Fran.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  166. In Islam, Christians are also a protected class, accorded the same rights as Jews. Yet by virtue of their violating the first Noahide Law, Christians are not considered to be a ger toshav (lawful resident alien) in traditional Judaism:

    Do not allow them to reside in your land, since they may then make you sin to Me. You may even end up worshiping their gods, and it will be a fatal trap to you. [Exodus 23:33]

    When God your Lord places them at your disposal and you defeat them, you must utterly destroy them, not making any treaty with them or giving them any consideration (in Hebrew, ‘lo techonem’ is interpreted as ‘do not give them a resting place’). Do not intermarry with them… [If you do], they will lead your children away from Me, causing them to worship other gods.” [Deuteronomy 7: 2-4]

    You are pretty confused here. Deuteronomy is not referring to Christians, it is referring to the Baal worshiping Canaanites. There is a vast difference between what went on in those nations, to the Christians. The Christians do follow the Noahide laws, and were respected.
    You are confusing early Christianity which began as an extension of Judaism and was suppose to convert Jews. The core of Judaism viewed Jesus as a sorcerer and fake messiah. The fear of the core Judaic leaders established strict prohibitions on dealing with Jews that were becoming Christians.

    Forbidden for Jews to mix or do business with Jewish converts Christians early AD, for fear of loosing the Judaism to a false messiah. Another time sensitive context that has obviously changed with time. This was early AD.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  167. @Colin Wright

    So much for the Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, Buddhists, ancient Greeks, and the Romans.

    None of these are monotheists religions and depending on the history context they were all barbaric at one time. Judaism was one of the first religions to introduce law of judging people in a judicial process rather then just crucifying a person. In ancient times in all of those countries you could look the wrong way and have your head chopped off. Not so in Judaism.

    That’s what I experienced when I visited Japan; rank barbarity. crazy stupid thing to say

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Colin Wright
  168. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    In ancient times in all of those countries you could look the wrong way and have your head chopped off.

    Yup, Fran’s right. The ancient Athenians were so primitive (being a polytheistic society), they condemned Socrates to death by chopping his head off, lol! Damn pagans!

  169. @Fran Taubman

    You are pretty confused here.

    Not really.

    Judaism is replete with conflicting opinions, and confusion comes rather easily, so that much is crystal clear. You’ll have some rabbis saying Christianity is clearly avoda zarah (idolatry) while others call it shituf (association) in order to rationalize tolerating its presence. Then you have some telling us that Christians are just “following in the tradition of their parents,” so it can’t be called idolatry. But, according to “most poskim (decisors),” Christianity is idolatry:

    https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5772-bo/

    So there’s no confusion about that designation.

    Now in this very day, those two Torah verses have been cited by rabbis to argue for the necessity of removing from Israel all goyim not designated as lawful resident aliens, or those in compliance with the Noahide Laws. Of course, they also rationalize how this isn’t possible at the present time because of what Maimonides said concerning the need to consider current circumstances, but they don’t contend with the fact that there’s a mitzvah for said expulsion if and when circumstances become favorable to so doing.

    Given the malleable nature of the Halakha, I’m sure legal loopholes have been created among today’s rabbis to rationalize the presence of Christians in Israel.

    Which is an entirely separate issue from how Israel would act if it could feasibly carry out that mitzvah. That very same malleability also allows for this potential.

  170. geokat62 says:

    As expected, Soros latest tweet is filled with so many lies:

    Here’s the true version:

    Bibi’s war in Syria, with Trump’s support, is causing horrific violence and more Syrians to flee. European leaders should not let a fear of conflict with Washington cloud their vision. Europe should stand with Syria against Bibi and Trump.

    By focusing on the refugee crisis that Israel has created, Europe is addressing the symptom and not the cause.

  171. @geokat62

    Soros is a blatant liar. Why doesn’t somebody eliminate him? Surely he’s worth liquidating more than the entire Azov battalion.

  172. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… That’s what I experienced when I visited Japan; rank barbarity. crazy stupid thing to say’

    Yeah. But it was what you said — not me.

  173. @AnonStarter

    Well first off I am very happy that you dropped all the bullshit and are talking about theology which is very interesting and can be exciting to share (my opinion only).

    Judaism is a living religion and there are suppose to be many different view points and changes and modifications along the way. I do not see that as a negative as proof that we corrupted our text like you do. I consider it very lively.
    But you are dead wrong on the Leviticus and trying to site it for Christians. I mean not even close.

    The gentile, goyim, mitzvah thing is way way out of context as you are expressing it. Give me a break our literature is much much older and people were different. Lay off being so literal. Those words mean completely different things at different time. The Christians were not the Amaleks who used to pray on the weak and old of the Israelites traveling thru the dessert, or the child sacrifices of the Canaanites. No comparison to Christianity.

    Christianity was threatening only to the Jews as the trinity and idol worship.We can live among the Christians and do not need to cast them out. This is bullshit. Judaism recognizes other paths.
    I keep pointing out that ideas towards Christians changed and vise versa thru time. Early AD Rabbis did not want Jews converting. You can understand that? Now that it is a different defined religion away from judaism it is an accepted path.

    You also mention that the Jews started the aggression. You really need to look up the Mufti of Jerusalem. But I get the feeling AS you live in a fantasy world.

    • Disagree: AnonStarter
  174. @geokat62

    What a crock. Assad senior killed 10,000 Syrians in one day. What do you think it is like over there. There are the Jews with guns, and everyone else are match sticks like in a model board with no thoughts, ideas or ability to control their lives.
    You cannot blame everything in the ME on the Israelis.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @geokat62
  175. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… No comparison to Christianity.

    Christianity was threatening only to the Jews as the trinity and idol worship.We can live among the Christians and do not need to cast them out…’

    Sure. Witness the Mamilla Pool. Soviet Russia. The Palestinian Christians.

    Whenever you get the chance, we see you’re all heart.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  176. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… Early AD Rabbis did not want Jews converting. You can understand that? Now that it is a different defined religion away from judaism it is an accepted path…’

    You’re so full of it, Fran.

    Even in my lifetime, I noticed the hysterical over-reaction of the Jewish community to ‘Jews for Jesus.’

    I mean, I don’t mind — but don’t try to pretend. Please.

  177. ivan says:

    Mr Atzmon . Your analysis is disturbing for an Indian like me for we have the same problem in India. Is India a country of Hindus or Indians. If it is a country of Hindus then the fascists in the BJP look set to retain power and transform it into a Hindu cow belt country. The only difference is that because of its size India may break up long before that. But let us not forget our debts to the Muslims who have played a dirty midwife role in all this. I recall that when Mr Rabin died Mr Peres was the ‘peace’ candidate. But in the face of terrorism from Hamas and the Hizbullah he had no chance at all. And its the same in India whete peace gesture after peace gesture from the Congress was met with increased terrorism from Pakistan. So that finally after the suicide bombing in Kashmir last year Modi lashed out and has reaped the dividend. Never forget the debt we owe the Muslims for bringing us to this pass.

    • Agree: Fran Taubman
  178. @Fran Taubman

    ‘What a crock. Assad senior killed 10,000 Syrians in one day. What do you think it is like over there. There are the Jews with guns, and everyone else are match sticks like in a model board with no thoughts, ideas or ability to control their lives.
    You cannot blame everything in the ME on the Israelis.’

    Well, Fran, Geokat was referring not to Assad Senior, but to Syria’s current civil war, and while maybe not everything can be blamed on Israel, that most certainly can.

    See Hillary Clinton’s emails. We deliberately worked to exacerbate Syria’s Arab Spring into a devastating civil war at Israel’s behest.

  179. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    You cannot blame everything in the ME on the Israelis.

    Everything? Of course not, Fran. But who’s idea was it to Remake the Middle East in order to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle?

    Well, according AIPAC’s regional guidebook from 2000, Country Profiles Threats in the Region, Syria was one of six countries on Israel’s hit list. The others were Iran, Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt.

    Here’s how AIPAC described the threat to the Jewish state emanating from Syria:

    [MORE]

    Syria, which is expanding its arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, remains Israel’s principal immediate military threat. Israel’s security planners are worried about Syria’s growing conventional and unconventional military capabilities, especially since Syria walked away from the peace table in 2000. For the past decade, the Syrians have had the ability to manufacture several hundred tons of chemical warfare agents per year at four separate production facilities. Syria has received, via Iran, hundreds of extended-range North Korean Scud-C missiles, and is reportedly building its own ballistic missiles from imported technology. In 2000, Syria tested for the first time a longer-range Scud-D missile, able to hit any point in Israel from deep inside Syrian territory—making it more difficult for Israel to find the launch sites.

    Syria’s military outnumbers any other Middle East country or even the combined arsenals of Great Britain, France and Italy. In terms of size, Syria’s armed forces surpass the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) by a wide margin. The Syrian armed forces total more than 400,000 men, with another 400,000 troops in reserve. Syria’s arsenal includes more than 4,600 tanks and some 600 combat aircraft. While much of Syria’s equipment is outdated, a large Saudi-financed package of new weaponry from Russia may soon be delivered, including surface-to-air missiles, mobile artillery, battle tanks and combat aircraft. Syrian ground units, including elite commandos, train constantly for a possible strike against the Israeli-controlled Golan Heights. In terms of standing forces (not including reserves), Syria’s army outnumbers the IDF on the Golan Heights by a factor of more than 4:1. And Israel must assume that any future conflict could also bring in other Arab states, such as Iraq.

    Syria’s army continues to occupy Lebanon, even after the Israeli withdrawal. With 40,000 troops, Syria occupies Lebanon, home to many of the most radical and violent Islamic organizations, most notably Hizballah (Party of God). Even without the pretext of Israel’s presence in southern Lebanon, Syria encourages continued Hizballah attacks as a means of keeping Israel off-guard and pressuring Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights. Syria also allows Iran to use the Damascus airport for transshipping weapons and other supplies to the terrorist group. As a result, Hizballah continues to threaten the citizens of northern Israel with Katyusha rocket attacks. With Syrian acquiescence, Hizballah has over the years perpetrated numerous terrorist attacks against U.S. and other western targets in Lebanon and against Israeli and Jewish targets throughout the world. Israel holds Syria responsible for Hizballah’s ongoing attacks.

    Israel remains concerned about the dangers of miscalculation. Israel is concerned about the dangers of miscalculation, even though the Israel-Syrian border has been quiet since the 1974 disengagement agreement. A future crisis with Syria could emerge with little warning and quickly escalate to war, even unintentionally, particularly in light of the new and relatively inexperienced leadership in Damascus. With its large standing army abutting the Golan Heights, Syria could attempt a quick land grab before Israel can deploy its reserves. Also, Syria’s dangerous game of permitting Hizballah to attack Israel in order to provoke a response could spiral the region into a larger war.

    Syria hosts Palestinian terrorist organizations in both Damascus and Lebanon. These groups – including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-are opposed to the peace process and the very existence of the state of Israel. They have launched lethal attacks against innocent Israeli citizens, resulting in hundreds of deaths. These activities continue today, in conjunction with the so-called “Al-Aqsa intifada”. As a result, Syria remains on the State Department list of countries sponsoring terrorism.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  180. @Colin Wright

    https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5772-bo/

    The Mishnah[1] prohibits one from even entering a city in which avodah zarah is present. …

    Most poskim consider Christianity to be avodah zarah[9].

    Since Jews cannot even enter a city in which idolatry is present, and Christianity is regarded by the majority of rabbinical authorities to be idolatry, it follows that the dominant view in Judaism is to mandate physical separation between Jews and Christians.

    Now the only reason Israel circumvents this mandate is due to a provision articulated by Moses Maimonides:

    All of these matters [being lenient with gentiles “for the sake of the ways of peace”] refer only when Israel is exiled amongst idolaters or the hand of idolaters rules over Israel, but when the hand of Israel [is strong and rules] over them, we are forbidden to permit idolaters amongst us, even as casual residents or as merchants passing through. They shall not pass through our land before they accept upon themselves the seven Noachide commandments, for it is said ‘They shall not sit in your land,’ not even for an hour.”

    The Noahide Laws are key. Out of practical consideration in these times, most rabbis will create a legal argument to define Christians as being in compliance with them, and thus, regard them as lawful resident aliens. However, Maimonides himself regarded Christians as idolaters and claimed that Christianity is not allowed for goyim, so if the Rambam is followed, then Christians are to be removed once conditions are ripe for it.

    Additionally, Edom — which has become synonymous with the west — is related to Amalek via Zepho, Esau’s grandson. Zepho’s grandson, Latinus, is said to be the one who gave the Romans their language. According to Issac Abarbanel:

    The true sages accepted as tradition that the soul of Esau was reborn as the soul of Jesus the Christian…and that is why he is called Yeshua, which is an anagram [in Hebrew] of Esau, and that is why any who follow his religion and his faith and worship him should properly be called children of Edom, since Jesus is Esau and Esau is Edom. This religion began in Rome and its roots are there. The Roman caesars and the kings of Christianity were the first who accepted it, and therefore all the Christians who believe in the religion of Jesus are without a doubt people of Edom the offspring of Esau.

    As such, the Torah passages I earlier quoted — the ones that appear to be specific only to Amalek — may also be applied to Edom (Christians) as well.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Fran Taubman
  181. anarchyst says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Tying Judaism to Christianity was a clever “trick” used by the jews to “cement” their claim to the “land of Israel” and of the covenant, to which I reply, “God is not a real estate agent”.
    Jews rejected the covenant when they murdered Jesus Christ. Their covenant with God was then “null and void”.
    It is the flawed Schofield translation of the Bible that elevated jews to the status of Christianity’s “elder brothers”, which was then reinforced by the Catholic (flawed) “Vatican II Ecumenical Council” in the 1960s.
    I cringe when I hear well-meaning people talk about out judeo-Christian heritage.
    Nothing could be further from the truth.
    The only common thread between Christianity and judaism is the Ten Commandments, nothing more.
    The god of judaism is a vengeful god, totally unlike the merciful and welcoming God of Christianity.
    Christianity welcomes ALL, regardless of nationality or social status, not true of judaism.
    Judaism is an insular belief system that shuns outsiders, prohibits proselytization, and promotes a form of supremacy, relegating all gentiles (non-jews) to the status of livestock-subhumans with souls, only to be used for the advancement and benefit of jews. In fact, slavery (of goyim) is still condoned and encouraged in the jewish Talmud.
    Jews DID murder Jesus Christ. Sad to say, even the present-day (post-Vatican II ecumenical council) Catholic church has bought into absolving the jews for Jesus Christ’s murder. As always is the case, the jews got others, the Romans to do their dirty work for them, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. How can Christians have the same values as the Jews; the very people who denounced and betrayed the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, and call for his execution (by others, of course, that is the Jewish way). It makes absolutely no sense at all. Jews have no respect for Christianity, for Jesus Christ or Mary, his mother, who are both honored as Prophets in Islam, but instead, Jews spit on hearing their names and do the same while passing a Christian of any kind or a Christian Church in Israel. They have no respect for Christians or any other religion.
    It is time the Jewish lobbies and the American Government leaders as well as the evangelical Christian leaders who mislead the poor American young into joining the military and believing that they are doing something for God and Christianity by fighting Israel’s wars were named, shamed and arrested and tried for treason.

    • Agree: Colin Wright, Kali
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  182. geokat62 says:
    @AnonStarter

    The Noahide Laws are key.

    America and the World Being Deceived: Special Guest

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  183. Anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:

    Unz forum — or at least those threads where Taubman hogs the soap box, are boring.

    A trip to the town recycling center is more informative than regurgitation regurgitation regurgitation of hasbara formulas: “Jews invented morality,” “Israel is not perfect but better than fill-in-the -blank;” Taubman on “theology” is especially boring and recycled TV’s & crockery if not actual rotted kitchen waste (although the latter can make good manure).

    Curious that Taubman is so stuck in the past, and in a totally man-made topic, “theology.” Perhaps that’s because the Present of Israel & malign influence of many Jewush influencers is so readily observable and the contradictions and bullshit content easily assayed.

    signed
    Bored With Jews

  184. @geokat62

    Total bullshit. Islam is not considered idolatry. This guy is talking about the Sanhedrin which rarely executed anyone. He is parsing words to prove a point. I am parsing them back to say that this guy is total ignoramus when it comes to Torah and Talmud law. If the Sanhedrin killed one person in 70 years it was a bloody court.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  185. @geokat62

    Four standing armies in Syrai, count them four: Russia, Iran, Syrian, Hezbollah.
    Who and what are the fighting? Are they fighting Israel. Don’t think so.
    You cannot paint or you can paint a cardboard cut out of events with little models of soldiers and say that it is all Israel. There are soldiers and dead people. None of who are Israelis, this is not a Star Wars series with the force. This is not a video game. People being killed and killing have nothing to do with Israel. Both the Assad’s father and son are brutal hated dictators that run a family nepotism scams. Where the family members control the utilities, phone and gas companies etc. What do you think it is like to live in Syria if you are not Alawite? You get to own nothing.
    AIPAC is rightly concerned about the land bridge from Iran to Lebanon via Syria with the express purpose of destroying Israel.
    And BTW everyone is sick of Iran. The Lebanese are protesting Hezbollah on the streets. Hezbollah is a stranglehold on Lebanon and now Syria via Iran.
    I would say the reverse, all the machinations in the ME are not by Israel but by Iran for complete Shia hegemony over Arabia.

    You got the wrong bad guys. Switch hats.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  186. ‘..Four standing armies in Syrai, count them four: Russia, Iran, Syrian, Hezbollah.’

    You missed half of them. What about Israel’s four proxies?

    The Kurds, the Americans, al-Nusra nee al-Qaeda, and the Israeli Air Force?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  187. @AaronB

    Well, its right there on the Old Testament. The Prophets, towards the end of the book are describing history as a moral arc and humanity as moving towards a specific moral destiny…. so we are ready for an upgrade….

    Let us forget the mambo jumbo of old, old Books and concentrate on the current practices of Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

    Islam : ISIS was godsend for Islam as it showed the ugly face of Islam which crept in when Islam was hijacked at the demise of the Prophet while his body was still warm and not buried yet. At the death of the Prophet Islam had become an Empire and the ruling class changed Islam for Power and Mammon to justify their rules. A sixty years of civil war ensured until the brutal massacre of Prophet’s grandson Imam Hussain and the entire male descendant. The female descendant of the Prophet, including his granddaughter Zainab and others were tied behind camels, walked barefoot without hijab from Iraq to Syria. And, then paraded as such in the bazaars of Syria. Just in sixty years time!

    The Christians’ King helped the Prophet and gave protection to him and his adherents, while the Prophet was spreading Islam. What did the Muslims do in return. The second Caliph Omar had a Jewish right hand man who had converted to Islam. Most of the Caliphs had the same! Well the Muslims put a knife in the back of Christianity and started to spread Islam by SWORD. However, the good news is that because of ISIS, the Muslims are reevaluating the sixty years of Islamic history and the changes made to Islam. In spite of ISIS, the vast majority of Muslims are God fearing and with excellent morals.

    Christianity : During the last hundred years, at least 310 Million Christians have killed each other, let alone Millions of other mankind. Lately the Christians’ Nations for the last 30 years are waging wars on the Muslim countries. And they blame the Jews for this, but each and everyone of us responsible of our own deeds. One can really argue the man in the street doesn’t have control what their governments do and they get caught up without their intent and/or involvement. If you look at Christians today, the vast majority of them are God fearing and with excellent morals.

    Jews : Israel is good example about the so called light on the nations. The vast majority of Jews today, are cocky, arrogant and haughty. Iblis who was Jinn refused God’s Command to prostrate to Adam. God asked him why? His answer, “I am created from fire and Adam is created from dust, therefore I am superior to Adam”. God told him, “you are arrogant and haughty and have become satan (adversary) to mankind”, but you satan will never have influence on my Abdis (slaves).

    The whole world including Jews and Israel knows that their days are numbered as the writing is on the walls. But the Jews, haughtiness makes them blind to reality throughout the history. Same reason for the fall of satan, over and over and over….. And, you are absolutely right that we are ready for an upgrade for at least the next 200 years, and then the serpent will raise it head again!

  188. @Colin Wright

    Thank you Colin, for proving my point. you left out Turkey, The Free Syrian Army, and of course the Syrian people who are being slaughtered and sent to Turkey. Nothing to do with Israel.

    You think Turkey is an Israeli proxy.? None of those forces including the Syrians themselves are proxies of Israel. Can your brain compute complexity? You and Geo are like binary booby traps. Mention Israel and Jews and click the trap is released. That is all you are capable of is a binary response to a situation that has many characters with different agendas. I would put Israel least on the list. But that would interfere with you booby traded mind. ISRAEL !! click.
    There are way more proxies for Iran then Israel. The Kurds are fighting for themselves, the Turks to defeat the Kurds etc. The Russians for a port, all with their own agenda. Israel’s only interest is Iran. They will not allow Iran or Hizbollah to camp out in Syria and surround Israel.

  189. @Fran Taubman

    Mohammed was not a Jew but the entire religion of Islam is a cut and paste from Judaism with some intermingling of how Islam was really first, but hidden from view till Mohammed reveled it. He never denounced the Jewish god. …… Judaism is a force that started the entire ball of monotheism, and the advancement of humanity beyond barbarity.

    You are absolutely right the Sunni Islam, “is a cut and paste from Judaism”. Please see my above post #196 to @AaronB. The Islam was hijacked at the demise of the Prophet, while his body was still warm and not buried yet. Yes, the ruling class (Caliphs) for Power and Mammon with the help of Jewish advisers changed Islam to Judaism. They burned Qurans and Hadiths (Traditions) of the Prophets. New Hadiths (Traditions) were cooked 40 years later after the demise of the Prophet until 200 years. Then 250 years later, they were written down as Six Authenticated Books of Hadiths. The Hadiths (Traditions) become law over the Quran. But thanks, to godsend ISIS, things are changing as Muslims are questioning the ugly face of Islam.

    Why you think the Jews hate Shia? Because the Shia practice the unadulterated Islam. After ISIS the Sunni are following the Shai Islam and Islam has never been so united in the last 1500 years. But you are absolutely WRONG that, “Judaism is a force that started the entire ball of monotheism”!. The Jews who came out from Egypt were “Cow Worshipers” which is document in the TaNaKh as “Golden Calf”. When they came to Yemen till Palestine, they learned the Monotheism from the Arab Muslims!

  190. @anarchyst

    The Christians would rather hang out and fight with the Jews and Judaism over the Muslims and Islam. Simple fact. Christians hate Shira. Christians are capitalist and rely on the Jews for capitalism, Islam is socialist and most Muslims want to be provided for and are not that interested in work.

    They also hate the way Islam views women. The West really dislikes all of the Islamic countries including Pakistan. Just ask India, China, Myanmar and Africa about Boko Haram. If you think the Jews and Israel misled the poor Christians, you need to look at the way Britain jailed Anjem Choudary when he preached about flying the Caliphate flag over the UK and Washington DC. He was jailed without a violent action. I watched him on fox all the time. Baam the guy is gone.
    Imams in the UK supporting the murder of Infidels, and denouncing of the West also gone.

    You maybe able to write a good post on UR about the Jews snookering the Christains, but where the rubber meets the road, the Christian West will support Jews and Judaism over Islam everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Just ask them.

    It is just an indisputable fact. No one wants to live under socialist Islamic religious rules, and it does not look like Islam’s ruling religious elite are going to revise them anytime soon.

  191. anarchyst says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Actually Islam and judaism are much more closely related than judaism and Christianity.

    Unlike Christianity, both Islam and judaism have a “supremacist” bent in their writings.

    When it comes to treatment of non-believers, judaism is much worse than Islam as Islamic beliefs state that “those of the book” are “brethren” and, as such are accorded better treatment than those “not of the book. Islam regards BOTH jews and Christians to be “of the book”.

    Judaism regards ANY followers of Christianity as the “enemy”, as well as being “livestock, albeit with souls, born to serve the jews”.

    It is interesting to note that in Arab-run countries, there are many jewish communities that are pretty much left alone. There is a sizable jewish presence in Iran that is functioning quite well, despite Iran being israel’s “mortal enemy of the week”.

    The sad part of this whole situation is the Schofield brainwashed “Christian zionists” who are israel’s “willing dupes” who are waiting for a “rapture” and “second coming”. Poor fools who will be discarded by israel when they are no longer useful…

    • Agree: Fran Taubman
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  192. @Fran Taubman

    There are way more proxies for Iran then Israel. The Kurds are fighting for themselves, the Turks to defeat the Kurds etc. The Russians for a port, all with their own agenda. Israel’s only interest is Iran. They will not allow Iran or Hizbollah to camp out in Syria and surround Israel.

    This is all mirage. Isreal went to sleep happy that USA is destroying Muslims’ countries for them. Suddenly, they woke up to the Shia Crescent and Iran at the doorsteps of Israel. You like all the Jews know about it but unwilling to admit it. Israel cannot do anything about Iran being in Syria. Period!

    Even though Syria is majority Sunni, but it is a Shia country as Zianab the granddaughter of the Prophet is buried there. The sister of Imam Hussain, who carried the mantle after the butcher of male descendants of the Prophet.

    Iran is there and will stay there and Israel cannot do anything but make false claims about daily bombing of Iran’s camps in Syria. Iran must have umpteen camps in Syria, which requires the daily bombing. Right?

  193. anonymous[549] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fran Taubman

    as witnessed by an entire nation on Mt. Sinai. There is no other direct revelation by an entire nation in the history of the world. What happened on Mount Sinai imprinted on every Jew till eternity a path that cannot be altered. We are here to stay.

    Judaism is a force that started the entire ball of monotheism, and the advancement of humanity beyond barbarity.

    1. what is so special about monotheism?

    2. how far is Mt. Sinai from Jerusalem? If Sinai is so special, why not make that the center of Jewish worship?

    3. “no other direct revelation by an entire nation in the history of the world” — but who witnessed it? It’s a myth, Taubman, a myth: myths are potent, but they are the ideas woven in the minds of men — mere mortals.

    4. “an entire nation” — but then — hundreds, maybe thousands of them were killed, and none of the original witnesses were allowed to enter the “promised land.”
    In other words, nobody who received that “direct revelation” lived to give first person testimony to that “only one in history” event. A lot like holohoax: only second and third generation Jews — and Christians — who have been heavily indoctrinated (aka brainwashed) by the Levitic assassins who killed the original witnesses — are around to insist on the veracity of that story. Taubman is one such indoctrinee (new word, indoctrinee: one who has been heavily indoctrinated).

    5. again, what is so special about monotheism? Jews want to believe there is one god? Knock yourself out. Leave the rest of us alone. It is the notion that Jews have the right to enforce their beliefs on all others that is the source of so much trouble.

    regarding Taubman #199: do not presume to speak for Christians: you’re a bad enough hasbarat, don’t compound your felonious, and maybe slanderous, bullshit.

    • Thanks: Kali
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  194. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Four standing armies in Syrai, count them four: Russia, Iran, Syrian, Hezbollah.
    Who and what are the fighting? Are they fighting Israel. Don’t think so.

    No, of course not, Fran. Israel lights the fuse then stands back and watches the fireworks.

    People being killed and killing have nothing to do with Israel.

    They have everything to do with Israel, Fran, and you know it. The Lobby pushed hard to make A Clean Break and Remake the Middle East to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle.

    Need proof? You can read PNAC’s A Clean Break or this short quote from Mearsheimer and Walt’s magnum opus, The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy:

    Chapter 9 (“Taking Aim at Syria”) describes the evolution of America’s difficult relationship with the Assad regime in Syria. We document how the lobby has pushed Washington to adopt confrontational policies toward Syria (including occasional threats of regime change) when doing so was what the Israeli government wanted. The United States and Syria would not be allies if key groups in the lobby were less influential, but the United States would have taken a much less confrontational approach and might even be co-operating with Syria in a number of limited but useful ways. Indeed, absent the lobby, there might already be a peace treaty between Israel and Syria, and Damascus might not be backing Hezbollah in Lebanon, which would be good for both Washington and Jerusalem.

    Let me know if you’d like more quotes from Ch 9, Fran

    You got the wrong bad guys. Switch hats.

    Deception, deception, deception!

    The goyim know, Fran.

    Best tell the Jewish Supremacist Organizations (JSOs) to SHUT IT DOWN!

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  195. @Fran Taubman

    If you think the Jews and Israel misled the poor Christians, you need to look at the way Britain jailed Anjem Choudary when he preached about flying the Caliphate flag over the UK and Washington DC. He was jailed without a violent action. I watched him on fox all the time. Baam the guy is gone.

    After the godsend ugly Caliphate of Baghdadi, the Muslims have now thrown the institution of the Caliphate under the BUS. No ruling Monarch wants to give up his Throne for Caliphate. Ask General Sisi, if he wants to give up his Throne for a Caliph?

    The Caliphate was the Sunni concept but it is out of fashion now. Maybe Anjem Choudary with the help of Caliph Baghdadi can bring Caliphate to USA and Europe. Baam both have disappeared!

  196. @anarchyst

    I agree with only part of this. There no Jewish communities in Arab countries, and a tiny one left in Iran. Most Jews left.

    Judaism is much more similar to Islam then Christianity. But everything must be viewed thru the lens of time and the evolution of man. In the past you had divide and conquer not only with religions but Aristocracies and countries.
    Judaism posed a threat to Christianity and vise versa. Both wanting to hold supremacy over the other and propagandizing the other and each portraying the other as evil and negative.
    With time both of those religions have come to the conclusion that each is different and there does not have to be a divide and conquer. If Jews do not want to believe in Jesus as the Messiah fine.
    Jews do not have to fear the dreaded Goyim are going to come and convert them by knife point so they are not so barricaded.
    Unfortunatley Islam has not reached the same level of maturity insisting that Judaism is corrupt and it’s presence in Islamic lands is corrupt. A long way to go with that religion.

  197. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… Israel’s only interest is Iran. They will not allow Iran or Hizbollah to camp out in Syria and surround Israel.’

    Then Israel’s not very bright, is she?

    Let’s go back. Once upon a time, there was a secular Arab dictator in Syria named Assad. Like any sensible secular dictator, he wanted as little to do with the Islamic Republic of Iran as possible. Not Arab, not Syrian, and definitely not secular.

    But then came the Arab Spring…and Israel saw in this an opportunity to destroy the Syrian state. So — as Hillary Clinton’s emails reveal — she got all her little helpers to work on reducing Syria to blood-soaked fragments.

    …and it worked splendidly. Sunni religious fanatics, Kurdish separatists…the whole place was turning into complete and terminal anarchy.

    It worked so splendidly that Assad had to look to Iran for help. It was his only hope.

    And that’s how Iran and Hezbollah got into Syria. Because Assad invited them. Because Israel left him with no choice.

    Clever, clever, clever…except that now Israel realizes this isn’t exactly the effect she had in mind.

    You people aren’t just evil — you’re incredibly stupid as well.

    What’s your next stroke of genius going to be? Try a black flag operation against the United States and get caught?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  198. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Total bullshit. Islam is not considered idolatry.

    Ok, Fran. I’ll take your word for it… NOT!

    The beautiful truth telling couple, Steve and Jana Ben-Nun, invited their special guest, Vincent Bruno, creator of the website Stop Noahide Law (https://stopnoahidelaw.blogspot.com/?m=1).

    Vincent appears to be a sincere truth seeker and not a virulent antisemite. He was so keen on understanding the Talmudic concept of Shituf, he submitted a query about it to a rabbi with AskNoah.org:

    He received a very interesting response:

    [MORE]

    EMAIL TO RABBI MICHAEL SHULMAN
    EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ASK NOAH INTERNATIONAL REGARDING SHITUF

    http://www.AskNoah.org
    [email protected]

    My Question:

    Dear Rabbi,

    I have a question about Shituf. Some say that one may practice Shituf as a non-Jew, but is this allowed to go on forever? I think that the ultimate purpose is to eventually negate Shitfu is that not true?

    “…it is however obvious that if it will be perceived by them (the nations), also the matter of the negation of shituf, until they even have some recognition of the Unity of Hashem—that ‘there is nothing else besides Him’; this will add both in their carefulness and meticulousness in fulfilling the seven Noahide Laws [with all of their ramifications!] and also in their aiding of Jewish people in all of their matters pertaining to Yiddishkeit and all of their needs in general…” (Likkutei Sichos 25: YudTes Kislev)

    Dr. Shulman’s Response:

    B”H

    Thanks for your question.

    What Rabbinical authority says that it’s permissible for a Non-Jew to practice Shituf?

    Many people are confused about that issue. The debate among the Jewish Sages was only in regard to whether or not BELIEF in Shituf is permissible for Non-Jews. But even if it is permissible, that false belief excludes the person from being a Pious Gentile who acknowledges that G-d actively controls everything that happens in the physical and spiritual realms.

    But if a persons actively engages in the practice of serving / worshiping the Shituf that he believes in, that goes over the line in to the realm of idol worship.

    For example, if a Non-Jew believes that events in the world are controlled by the positions of the stars and planets, that is belief in Shituf, and it not forbidden for Non-Jews (even though it is a false idea). But if the person goes farther and worships a star or planet, e.g. by praying to it, or burning incense to it, or bowing down it, then it becomes idol worship, which is forbidden.

    Yes, the ideas of Shituf will be negated in the future. It is a process that has already started in the world.

    Best regards,

    Dr. Schulman

    https://stopnoahidelaw.blogspot.com/2020/02/see-table-on-contents-join-our-facebook.html?m=1

    • Replies: @Kali
  199. @AnonStarter

    Are you a Torah scholar AS?
    You are using snapshots of Talmudic and Torah quotes out of time and context and superimposing them onto the present, to satisfy your desire to show that Jews reject Christians. It is deceptive, and prima facia. Taqiya. I mean more clear example could not be presented if I tried.

    Since Jews cannot even enter a city in which idolatry is present, and Christianity is regarded by the majority of rabbinical authorities to be idolatry, it follows that the dominant view in Judaism is to mandate physical separation between Jews and Christians.

    All of these matters [being lenient with gentiles “for the sake of the ways of peace”] refer only when Israel is exiled amongst idolaters or the hand of idolaters rules over Israel, but when the hand of Israel [is strong and rules] over them, we are forbidden to permit idolaters amongst us, even as casual residents or as merchants passing through. They shall not pass through our land before they accept upon themselves the seven Noachide commandments, for it is said ‘They shall not sit in your land,’ not even for an hour.”

    These quotes were written 1100 AD and before, when Judaism’s very existence was threatened by Jewish converts to Christianity which was considered a Jewish offshoot.
    I could do the same with Islamic text of different periods in time and take them out of context to deceive people to the nature of Islam.

    Your quotes are not relevant today and these ideas no longer represent Jewish thoughts. As Christianity has established it’s own faith and operates its own codes and is no longer relevant to the religion of Judaism as a conversion theology that is threatening.
    Jews reject the Trinity and demi god status of Jesus performing miracles and Christians are okay with that.
    Christians and Jews have lived through tremendous suffering and have moved on to 202o, clearly you have not and prefer to stir the pot by deceiving people with ancient text. Why don’t you move on? Why not clear up your on Islamic falsehoods and stop pointing the finger at us. I have not taken any Islamic text our of context.
    You are not a Torah scholar. Nice try with the taqiya, like when you are slathering on the compliments to Rurik while trying to convert him.
    You are a liar!!! A stinking liar!!!

    • LOL: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
    , @Kali
  200. @geokat62

    ‘No, of course not, Fran. Israel lights the fuse then stands back and watches the fireworks.’

    You’re both too modest.

    Israel hardly stands back. She bombs Syria at least weekly. She’s quite open about it; Netanyahu has even boasted of the frequency and vigor with which Israel bombs Syria.

    It’s morbidly interesting how this has come to be accepted as perfectly reasonable. Israel bombs her neighbors. It would of course be an outrage if they dared to strike back.

    The equivalent would have been, say, if Japan had mounted the attack on Pearl Harbor — and expected us to just accept it.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  201. geokat62 says:
    @Colin Wright

    You’re both too modest.

    Israel hardly stands back.

    Fair enough. While it’s true that she has regularly bombed Syria, she tried not to leave any fingerprints behind in the destruction of Iraq and Libya.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  202. @anonymous

    ‘1. what is so special about monotheism?

    2. how far is Mt. Sinai from Jerusalem? If Sinai is so special, why not make that the center of Jewish worship?’

    Happily, Fran already thinks Sinai would make a fine homeland for people from Palestine.

    So we’ve got all these Jews in Palestine. They could be given Mount Sinai…driven into the desert moved to their new homes…Middle East peace!

  203. Skeptikal says:
    @Nonny Mouse

    ” The vowel of English “sit” is German u-umlaut ”

    Wrong.
    The exact equivalent in German of English short i as in “sit” is i as in “mit.”

    there is no equiv. in English of German u-umlaut (ue) as in “der Fuehrer.”

    • Replies: @Nonny Mouse
  204. @geokat62

    ‘Fair enough. While it’s true that she has regularly bombed Syria, she tried not to leave any fingerprints behind in the destruction of Iraq and Libya.’

    This is one of the worst things about the Mighty Mite: her sheer malevolence towards all of her neighbors — in fact towards almost anyone within about a thousand miles.

    Now Lebanon’s having some sort of financial crisis. You can bet her little buddy to the south will be doing all she can to make it worse. I bet Paul Singer could really make her squeal!

  205. @Fran Taubman

    You forgot this part of the Parsha AS.

    Moreover, there is a view[7] that gentiles nowadays cannot be considered idol-worshipers since they are merely following in the tradition of their parents (without actually worshipping idols).
    Practically speaking, however, the vast majority of the poskim agree that Christianity is considered avodah zarah and a Jew is forbidden to enter a church[8]. The following reasons are offered:

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @BDS Always
  206. You forgot this part

    Actually, you forgot that I mentioned that part in a recent post just above:

    https://www.unz.com/gatzmon/why-does-netanyahu-keep-winning/#comment-3756171

    Judaism is replete with conflicting opinions, and confusion comes rather easily, so that much is crystal clear. You’ll have some rabbis saying Christianity is clearly avoda zarah (idolatry) while others call it shituf (association) in order to rationalize tolerating its presence. Then you have some telling us that Christians are just “following in the tradition of their parents,” so it can’t be called idolatry. But, according to “most poskim (decisors),” Christianity is idolatry …

    This statement, of course, does nothing to undermine what I’ve written.

    Not in the least.

  207. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Moreover, there is a view[7] that gentiles nowadays cannot be considered idol-worshipers since they are merely following in the tradition of their parents (without actually worshipping idols).
    Practically speaking, however, the vast majority of the poskim agree that Christianity is considered avodah zarah and a Jew is forbidden to enter a church[8]. The following reasons are offered…’

    I suppose the more enlightened of us could similarly excuse Jews.

    …if only if it weren’t for Israel. After all, it’s one thing to, say, benignly accept Catholicism…another to keep smiling as it persists in burning heretics.

    You’re not an Israel supporter, are you, Fran?

  208. AaronB says:
    @AnonStarter

    God wasn’t unclear, but men have to apply his words to new circumstances as they arise.

    The Jewish position on Christians evolved, partly in response to observed behavior of Christians leading to a more positive assessment. Also to changes in perception of threat.

    Initially, it had to be made extremely clear that Christianity is not a viable option for Jews. After the situation stabilized, attitudes could become more relaxed.

    So the initial Jewish reaction to Christianity was one of severe rejection, in response to the Christian claim to be a replacement for Judaism – a threatening claim.

    By the late first millennium, however, most Ashkenazi poskim ruled that Christianity is not considered idol worship for non-Jews, but is for Jews (a Jew, born or converted, who then becomes Christian, is considered an idol worshipper. A gentile, is not).

    The wealth of opinions and responsa in Judaism comes from a different perception of mans relation to the Divine in Judaism. There are areas of absolute clarity where simple submission is required, as in Islam. But God left a large area where man is supposed to figure things out on his own, in participation with God so to speak, and within guidelines created by God and with divine inspiration. It’s a sort of cooperative effort. So God created levels of mystery in the Bible – hints and secrets that have to be uncovered in time. Indeed, the process is infinite, because God is infinite. Deeper and more esoteric levels of meaning are constantly being uncovered in an infinite process and according to each mans spiritual level. And beyond that, Jews are supposed to be actively engaged with interpreting God’s word to changing circumstances – this creates a level of engagement and involvement that cements an unbreakable bond to the Divine.

    As I mentioned to C Wright, Judaism believes in Time – human destiny unfolds over time.

    There is even an anecdote that certain Rabbis of tremendous spiritual height made certain rulings in certain parts of the world, and that actually altered reality in that part of the world but not elsewhere. In that region, certain healing methods etc were effective, but only there.

    And Sephardim and Ashkenazim have certain minor differences in ritual and Law that apply only to them – for each Jew, the tradition of his family is considered binding.

    So there is a level of flex in Judaism and a sense of partnership and relationship with God that is, as far as I understand, absent in Islam. Certainly there exists tremendous areas where total and absolute submission to God is enjoined, as in Islam, and there are countless verses and sayings extolling submission.

    Now, I understand the Muslim position is different and I certainly respect it – complete submission is more emphasized, and God is seen as too lofty, remote, and awesome to enter into any kind of partnership with man. I respect that and can easily see how that can be the basis of a wonderful piety and sense of devotion to the Divine, and moreover confer an invaluable sense of serenity and comfort in a very turbulent world. And certainly this attitude exists in Judaism too.

    But minor differences are often what define different Paths, and there are multiple legitimate paths to the Divine.

    I’m pleased to see that you’ve ditched the condescension for the time being.

    My pleasure. I hope we can move forward amicably.

  209. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    The Mamilla Pool massacre, which was a horrific and indefensible crime, was not based on any consideration of Christians as idol worshippers. Rather, it was a response to Christian Crusader massacres and persecutions of Jews once they conquered the Holy Land. Crusaders often massacred Jews as the first thing they did upon conquering a new town.

    I don’t consider that a product of Christianity per se, but rather of the still barely civilized Germanic tribes of Europe for whom war and bloodshed was still a casual affair. Christian attitudes to Jews certainly made such behavior easier, but Christianity in essence cannot sanction massacres of Jews. But humans often don’t live up to their ideals.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  210. @AaronB

    Thanks Aaron that was timely and well written. In between the Colin taunting and never ending Geo conspiracies (god conspiracies are boring, there is just no there there) I find the theology of Islam fascinating especially as it relates to Judaism. As Maimonides said. Islam is Judaism for the masses. I wish to dialogue sincerely with Muslims.

    Frustrating that people do not understand the historical context and evolution of the meaning of gentiles, and goyim., and when commentators use ancient texts as a means of warfare. Like they hate Jews. so intensely they scour for a text to back it up. It is dishonest.

    Christianity was first about Jews and only Jews. Judaism was the runway for early Christians. The sheer terror of Jesus performing miracles to achieve Demi god status and the need for our sages to protect against idolatry on that scale from within, forced strict separation.
    Humanity was different early AD. people were isolated and uneducated and could easily be seduced so laws appeared draconian. There were no newspapers.
    To refer to those ancient laws as currently binding is ignorance personified. Especially the interpretation of punishments, the Noahide laws, and the required separation required of Jews to gentiles. To interpret early AD separation as supremacy is willful ignorance like AS really deception as I alluded to.
    You also mention the one on one that Judaism encourages with the divine that is starkly different then the other faiths. The nation not a prophet witnessed the revelation.
    Thanks for your help. AS has an agenda.

    • Thanks: AaronB
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @geokat62
  211. @AaronB

    ‘The Mamilla Pool massacre, which was a horrific and indefensible crime, was not based on any consideration of Christians as idol worshippers. Rather, it was a response to Christian Crusader massacres…’

    ! Given that the Mamilla Pool Massacre occurred in the seventh century, and the First Crusade began at the end of the eleventh century, the Jewish perpetrators of the former were prescient, to say the least.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Seraphim
  212. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… As Maimonides said. Islam is Judaism for the masses. I wish to dialogue sincerely with Muslims…’

    Sure you wish to ‘dialogue.’ That’s why you take care to always be condescending.

  213. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    AS has an agenda.

    … and Fran and Aaron don’t? lol

  214. AaronB says:
    @Colin Wright

    You are right! I got my history completely mixed up lol…

    So I was completely wrong – it had nothing to do with Crusaders. It was when the Persians conquered Jerusalem from the Byzantines.

    Thanks for correcting me Colin, and my apologies to the Crusaders and Northern Europeans. Mea Culpa.

    It was in response to persecution by local Christians, not Crusafers. And still completely indefensible and against the spirit of Judaism.

    • Replies: @Kali
  215. ‘It was in response to persecution by local Christians, not Crusafers. And still completely indefensible and against the spirit of Judaism.’

    Something like the Holocaust, then.

    So when did Jews have power and act in accord with this (unspecified) ‘spirit of Judaism’?

  216. @AaronB

    Alright, Aaron. This is a refreshing change of pace, alhamdulillah.

    I have no problem with the reality that Judaism was required to evolve. The difference in our perspective really comes down to the causes underlying that evolution and the essential nature of it. I should say from the outset that my intent here is merely to differentiate between our perspectives, not to proselytize, nor to condescend.

    You’ll likely recall that I’ve defined the way of life which the Children of Israel originally pursued as Islam. It could not have been any other way, since the God-fearing submit to Him, and those of Israel who faithfully pursued the path of the Prophets ‘alaihimus-salaam were God-fearing.

    God gave the Law to Moses ‘alaihis-salaam, a complete law by which the faithful of Israel would inspire others to join their ranks and assimilate their ways. By today’s standards, it was apparently harsh, the violation of each Commandment being a capital offense. This was intended, however, to condition Israel such that it would endure from one generation to the next, impervious to the dissolution that was the destiny of those given to immorality. In spite of myriad challenges to their survival, the faithful endured as such into the Kingdom of Solomon ‘alaihis-salaam, who, in his prescience, sent the Ark of the Covenant south to Axum with his son Menelik upon news of a corruption that would become fatal to the original character of Israel.

    This corruption entailed prophecies concerning two figures: the Messiah (Moshiach) and Shiloh (a.k.a. The Messenger of the Covenant). (They are referenced as separate persons in John 1: 20-21; 24-25.) The plan was to synthesize them, making it appear as if the Messiah was Shiloh, the terminus of prophethood through whom God’s salvation would be granted to all of humankind. The blueprint of what we know today as Christianity originated in Temple Israel as part and parcel of an endeavor to create a “Judaizing” paganism suitable for Gentile consumption while divesting those same Gentiles of their rightful inheritance in Islam, which is unequivocally prophesied in Scripture, however altered the record thereof.

    Against the backdrop of this design, the nature of Israel’s evolving views stands out in stark relief. Though Temple Israel was unable to co-opt the Messiah Jesus — who rebuked its Scribes and Pharisees in no uncertain terms — it nevertheless advanced The Lie concerning him which it had already prepared well in advance. In the earliest periods of Pauline Christianity, we find clear proclamations that it constitutes idolatry, even for non-Jews. In time, when Christendom became a force too difficult to subsume, those views changed.

    Yet none of this suggests that the original views have been irreversibly abrogated. You write that “the process is infinite,” which does not necessitate a linear progression; rather, it implies a perpetual process, one in which “Jews are supposed to be actively engaged with interpreting God’s word to changing circumstances,” as you so eloquently state. Thus, if the circumstances allow it, the original edicts may be applied.

    To summarize: Judaism’s evolution occurred as a consequence of the corruption of prophecy during the Solomonic reign. In order to continue surviving in spite of its denial of fulfilled prophecy, it has been compelled to adapt by producing legalistic rationales that may be changed according to new circumstances.

    Now, in Islam, the faithful certainly enjoy a personal relationship with God, which is quite distinct from “partnership.” The Prophet is reported to have said, “Those who know God are the heirs of the Prophets,” and since the Prophets were close to God, so too are those in the know. But since God is no need of any help, He also needs no partners. Still, God is ever near His friends:

    God said: Whosoever shows hatred to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with more than is necessary so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant it. I do not hesitate about anything so much as I hesitate about the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him.

    Thank you for taking the time to compose that very well drafted response. May we maintain good manners throughout our discourse and may this exchange set the tone for better days ahead.

    Ameen.

  217. @Fran Taubman

    According to the 7 Nohaide laws and Noahide Sub-Laws Christinity is Idol Worship and is a capital offence in which the perpetrator is to be executed.

    The Dangerous Truth About the Noahide Laws | KMN LIVE feat. Jana Ben-DeNoon.

    SHOCKING SCRIPTURE PROVES NOAHIDE LAWS ARE COMING. Christians, get ready, because worshipping Jesus is about to become ILLEGAL! ALREADY LAW!

    Who’s behinds Ben Shapiro’s Jewish Zionist Nazi ideology? We detail how the neo-conservative prodigy is driven by Noahide Law Kabbalist Rabbi Maimonides, Jewish Defense League zealot terrorist Meir Kahane, and atheist eugenist Professor Steven Pinker. Join Rick Wiles for 20 minutes of uncensored news, analysis and commentary. Air date 4/9/2019.
    https://www.trunews.com/podcast/rick-wiles-warns-about-dangerous-views-of-ben-shapiro-s-mentors-trunews

  218. Wielgus says:
    @Colin Wright

    In fact Syria’s relations with Iran are long-standing. During the Iran-Iraq war an Iraqi wall mural depicted Saddam as an Arab hero fighting the three-headed hydra of Khomeini, Hafez Assad and somewhat surprisingly, Gaddafi. Despite both being Baathists, Iraq kept a significant number of troops in the west of the country during the Iran-Iraq war in case Syria attacked.
    It has been claimed that Hafez Assad told his son before he died that when the other Arab states betrayed Syria, Iran would stand by it. And so it has proved, whether or not the story is true.

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
  219. @Fran Taubman

    As usual Fran your Hasbara Bollock Merchant Islamophobia waffle is so easy to debunk.

    Trust me, none Zionist Christians will stand with Muslims to protect their way of life including the LGBT brainwashing of children, Pornography being pushed etc.
    Their love of Jesus is something that they have in common. There is a group called Christians Against Usury which is also in line with the Muslim faith.
    I sometimes attend inter faith meetings attended by Shia, Sunni, Catholic, Church Of England, Sikh, Hindus. Why is it that no Jews bother to attend?

    According to the Office Of National Statistics the Muslim Population in the UK in 2018 was 3,372,966.

    The British state asset Anjum Choudary, who is not a scholar, only mustered around 100 supporters at best who followed his way of thinking. I also watched the news and know muslims.
    Choudary and his crew even had their own place of worship as they are not welcome in other Mosques. I have even heard of his followers being slapped around by other muslims and ejected from mosques.

    They like ISIS, BOKO HARAM consider other muslims to be deviants who do not agree with them.

    “Imams in the UK supporting the murder of Infidels, and denouncing of the West also gone.”
    Naming some of them would have been more credible. Muslims living in England live here according to the law of the land. Yes Sharia courts do exist but only to deal with marriage/ divorce issues, reconciliation between families and inheritance issues.

    The media will waffle on about sharia courts but never mention the Jewish courts.

    “Muslims want to be provided for and are not that interested in work.”

    More Islamophobe Bollocks from yourself.
    British Muslims contribute more than £31 billion to the UK economy and wield a spending power of £20.5 billion, a new report has found.
    https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/29/uk-muslims-economy_n_4170781.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJXv4ul1235DzxmLooP6AvQIMWeen2z9KKGPHP-OZkTAEHhBNWZMfhJj33EqZ3cMplmLhGCOeAlKbuvE3eKLY9FJX-_j-1nbzt-uWIb4nBUJQHS2xS67FOItAk7RIpQHvLTxGSDp-TuEldUMsUCu4UlsIpUzH0zr60F4eKBG-yqQ

    There is certain stigma attached to muslim children who do not do well education wise and do not attend University.

  220. Kali says:
    @geokat62

    Thank you Geo.

    Would I be going too far if I were to note that today is Sun Day? It is the day given to worship of the Son-God (God the Son). Represented in the Gregorian Calendar as our nearest star, The Sun, which gives life to all on earth?

    Further, would it be irrational of me, do you think, to leap to the outrageous conclusion that recognition of The Sun/Son-God, and that celebration of it’s live-giving magnificence, may well be “Out-Lawed” should Noahide “Jew Law” ever be imposed?

    And if it were ever to be imposed, that imposition would necessarily be achieved by Inquisition? Could this outlandish conclusion not be a figment of my ‘illogical woman-brain’? I wonder… 🙂

    Anyway, thank you for the info.

    The words “No, I will not comply!” some how come to mind. 😉

    With love,
    Kali.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  221. @AnonStarter

    Alright, Aaron. This is a refreshing change of pace, alhamdulillah…..

    God gave the Law to Moses ‘alaihis-salaam, a complete law by which the faithful of Israel would inspire others to join their ranks and assimilate their ways. By today’s standards, it was apparently harsh, the violation of each Commandment being a capital offense.

    Salam,

    Your whole post is very excellent. On a Muslim blog, which had Jews, Christians, Muslims and others learning from each other and benefiting. A young Muslim scholar raised the point that how awful that Joseph wrestled with Elohim and won the war. Since, Shema Yisrael is in the Quran too, I chipped in that I don’t think that these are literal verses. The Jewish moderator, from whom I learned a lot introduced to us the concepts of Yetzer (Ha)ra and Yetzer (Ha)tov. Of course in Islam Joseph never sinned against his brother. His famous sayings used to be which I whole heartily agreed with that TaNaKh and not Old Testament is a Jewish Book, and the Christians have no right to take the Jewish Book and rearrange it to fit their agenda, especially the Book of Isaiah which contains prophesies about the King of Babylon, not Jesus and which already have come true. And, the Book of Isaiah is not the last chapter in the TaNaKh like in the Old Testament.

    To him there is no Old Testament (old laws) and New Testament (new laws), only TaNaKh (just same laws). He further mentioned that no other religion have a right to interrupt other religions’ Books to fit their agenda and in the process demean that religion. One cannot argue with this good reasoning. There is so much hate for Jews on this forum, and other races too, including the white race. Judaism is one of the greatest religion. The criticism of State of Israel and the aggression it commits, is not criticism of Jewish People. A God fearing good human, will never agree to the transgressions committed by Israel and will be vocal in his/her criticism.

    I don’t agree with you, “By today’s standards, it was apparently harsh, the violation of each Commandment being a capital offense.”. God gave the same laws to Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, but unfortunately as the time progressed these laws became harsher and harsher.

    Take for example the law, “an eye for an eye”. Here the intention is that the punishment should be equal to the crime committed and not greater. As the time progressed the law become harsher and harsher to the point being a capital punishment. Thus, we have Jesus emphasizing the law of compassionate, which is Islamic practice. Islam separates the crimes against individuals and state. For example if a murdered is committed, then it is considered a crime against individual and the family which suffered is allowed to either demand capital punishment from state or apply forgiveness. In this situation, Islam recommends the law of compassionate. But if someone commits several murders, then it becomes crime against state, and the capital punishment is applied by the state.

    A good example an eye for an eye and no more is when Imam Ali was struck once while praying with a poison sword. He survived for two days and he made a verbal will to his sons, that if I survive then I will decide what to do. In case if I perish, then my murderer struck me once, therefore as his punishment he shouldn’t be struck more than once as we are not allowed to transgress the limits set on us.

    God bless all His Creation and have Mercy on them!

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  222. Kali says:
    @AaronB

    And still completely indefensible and against the spirit of Judaism.

    Question: Are (Adam Smiths’) “invisible hand”, and “the spirit of Judaism” the same thing? – Do they equate?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  223. Kali says:
    @Fran Taubman

    These quotes were written 1100 AD and before

    Which is exactly why they became Judaic Law.

  224. geokat62 says:
    @Kali

    Would I be going too far if I were to note…

    Good morning, Kali. You are very contemplative this Son Day, morning!

    The words “No, I will not comply!” some how come to mind. 😉

    They come to my mind, as well.

    Stay well, Kali.

    • Thanks: Kali
  225. geokat62 says:

    Thanks JSOs!

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  226. @geokat62

    Thanks JSOs!

    Greetings Geo!

    In Oman we have almost all religion being represented. We enjoy each other religious holidays and celebrates them with gusto. Especially, greeting each other. Many, many moons ago, when I was in USA, we used to great each other on the birthday of Prince of Peace Jesus (as) with “Merry Christmas”. Then came a time for very long, one cannot great with “Merry Christmas” as it was considered abhorrent.

    God bless Trump it is now slowly, slowly becoming fashionable again to wish people “Merry Christmas”.

    Peace to you my friend Geo!

    P.S. I was just talking on the toll-free number in the USA, and I finished the call, “have a great day”. I was pleasantly surprised with a back greeting. “have a blessed Sunday”. Music to my ears!

    • Thanks: geokat62
    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  227. @AaronB

    ‘… By the late first millennium, however, most Ashkenazi poskim ruled that Christianity is not considered idol worship for non-Jews, but is for Jews (a Jew, born or converted, who then becomes Christian, is considered an idol worshipper. A gentile, is not)…’

    Got a source for that claim?

  228. @AnonStarter

    Bookmarked for vocabulary:

    avoda zarah עבודה זרה (idolatry) Italian: idolatria

    shituf שיתוף (association) Italian: Condivisione – sharing. also:
    le associazione
    association, combination, partnership, conjunction, society, combine
    la società
    company, society, corporation, club, partnership, association
    il sodalizio

    poskim פוסקים (decisors) Italian: decisori also: il giudice judge, justice, magistrate, referee, adjudicator, decider
    il arbitro referee, arbitrator, ref, arbiter, umpire, decider; also, makers

  229. @AnonStarter

    As the very wise Assad al-Islam said

    is famous sayings used to be which I whole heartily agreed with that TaNaKh and not Old Testament is a Jewish Book, and the Christians have no right to take the Jewish Book and rearrange it to fit their agenda, especially the Book of Isaiah which contains prophesies about the King of Babylon, not Jesus and which already have come true. And, the Book of Isaiah is not the last chapter in the TaNaKh like in the Old Testament

    The same goes for Islam. Stop rearranging our book to
    fit your agenda. Suppose someone comes after Islam another prophet with another Old Testament prophecy and starts rearranging your text?

    With regards to you cherry picking OT text to prove our bungling. Did not Islam have many battles and equal claims of heresy depending on which relative of the prophet was to succeed him and his holiness? Which ended up with bloody battles and sectarian violence to this day.

    Some perch to be looking down at Judaism from. Why did Mohammed need family members to continue his prophecy. He was the seal? Moses and Jesus were not dependent on progeny to continue the covenant. It ended with their deaths. What is up with Mohammed’s grandson Ali? The cruel death and rewriting of the hadiths depending on what relative. Pretty confusing.

  230. @Kali

    ‘Question: Are (Adam Smiths’) “invisible hand”, and “the spirit of Judaism” the same thing? – Do they equate?’

    A real problem here is the (never specified) ‘Jewish spiritualism/ethics/morality.’

    …or whatever. It’s never defined, and the evidence of its persistent absence in practice is simply ignored.

    Yet we’re supposed to accept that it’s there, and proceed on the assumption that it defines Jewishness and Judaism.

    …even though the evidence tends to suggest just the opposite.

    Another aspect of the problem is that we get far too much of the extremes, and not nearly enough of the middle.

    [MORE]

    At one extreme, we have the often-absurd fulminations of the anti-semites, that tend to overlook the detail that many others are indeed, just as bad as the Jews, if somewhat less effective in obtaining their ends. No, Jews are not evil incarnate — no more than Armenians or Turks are.

    Then we should have a middle ground — but there’s very little there. Instead we go right over to Aaron and innumerable other Jewish figures, who, while they may indeed agree that in principle, Jews may have been bad, persistently fail to enumerate what they would agree are their sins. Go ahead; try to extract such a confession from Aaron or Fran…or Lot, or that A123 creature. My experience has been that you won’t get anywhere. It becomes Hitler’s Willing Executioners writ large. Jews were, are, and always will be immaculately innocent. Gentiles are just inherently infected by ‘eliminationist anti-semitism.’. Nothing Jews did to provoke it, and no change in Jewish behavior would appease it. We’re fine, and they’re crazy.

    So what’s a feller to do? It becomes a battle, and you’re expected to pick a side. Truth? who gives a damn about that?

    • Replies: @Art
  231. @Fran Taubman

    The same goes for Islam. Stop rearranging our book to fit your agenda.

    Shalom,

    Islam doesn’t need OT nor NT to fit their agenda. There are some Sunni brothers who try to claim that Mohammad prophesy is in both OT and NT. Basically, they are stretching some very vague verses. Remember that it is claimed the Mohammad plagiarized both Judaism and Christianity but got the stories wrong. I can promise you with utmost assurance that yes, all the stories are different. But I can again assure you with upmost certainty that we are all created by the Same GOD Elohim, from Adam to judgement day.

    Did not Islam have many battles and equal claims of heresy depending on which relative of the prophet was to succeed him and his holiness? Which ended up with bloody battles and sectarian violence to this day.

    Nope! Mohammad proclaimed many a times that after him, his first cousin Ali and son-in-law will succeeded him. It is in the Quran chapter 5, verse 67 and then verse 3. Unfortunately, the Quran we have today was intentionally compiled by the third Caliph not in chronological order to ensure confusion. Even the verses within the chapters are not in chronological order. Quran has 114 chapters, and chapter 5 is one of the last chapter. Then he burned all the remaining Qurans. The father-in-laws are not family as they are connected by marriage and divorce. Islam was hijacked at the onset while Mohammad’s body was still warm and not buried yet. The first three Caliphs also burned all the Hadiths too, claiming that Quran is sufficient. From fifth Caliph onward for almost 200 years the Hadiths were cooked to justify their rule. These cooked Hadiths were written down 250 years later after Mohammad’s demise.

    The biggest difference between Sunni and Shia is not theology nor succession as today it doesn’t matter. The difference is that Sunni Hadiths are cooked and they intentionally demean Mohammad to bring those low lives around him to his level. If a Caliph or his friend is a pedophile, cook a Hadith that a woman saying (not Mohammad) that he married me when I was six and consummated the marriage with me at age nine without my permission, therefore the bride’s permission is not required.

    Why did Mohammed need family members to continue his prophecy. He was the seal? Moses and Jesus were not dependent on progeny to continue the covenant. It ended with their deaths. What is up with Mohammed’s grandson Ali? The cruel death and rewriting of the hadiths depending on what relative. Pretty confusing.

    Ali is Mohammad first cousin and his one surviving child Fatima’s husband. Mohammad didn’t have sons nor any other surviving children. Therefore, his progeny is from Fatima and Ali. In Islam Adam is the first prophet and he didn’t commit any sin nor blasphemy. God told him not to approach the tree in case you will become a tyrant. The tree didn’t have any significance, and as a grown up Adam used his freewill to defy God’s Command. No big deal as we do it all the time. Also, the Quran says that Adam was created to put on earth which was God’s Will before He created Adam so Adam was not in fault.

    From Adam the first prophet to the judgement day we will always have God’s representative on earth, chosen by God. There are almost 140,000 prophets in Islam and Quran says all the prophets are from one other, descendant of each other. The Shia believe that after the prophets, the imams are the representatives until judgement day. Adam and Eve are generation, and before Adam and Eve, there are about 70,000 generations of Adam and Eve. Also there are umpteen intelligent beings in this universe, as we are not especial. Between Jinn (not Hollywood) and Inns (humans) there are millions and millions intelligent beings. No fallen angels in Islam.

    Blessed be HaShem!

  232. @Fran Taubman

    ‘The same goes for Islam. Stop rearranging our book to
    fit your agenda…’

    You fail to understand. It’s their book, not yours. You fell away from the true revelation and corrupted it; they returned to and restored it.

    The Book isn’t ‘yours;’ it’s God’s, and Islam is running the restored director’s cut.

    Now, shall we go into the position vis-a-vis Christianity?

  233. @Assad al-islam

    The difference is that Sunni Hadiths are cooked and they intentionally demean Mohammad to bring those low lives around him to his level.

    The biggest insult to Mohammad is the BS cliam that he died without leaving a successor. So, his two father-in-laws decided that without a head the Islam is in danger. So, while Mohammad’s body was being prepared for burial they left and went to another town. There with five other people, both the father-in-laws were chosen as first and second caliphs. When they came back at night, Mohammad was already buried. The first caliph then went and slept in Mohammad’s room. In the morning, he proclaimed himself to be the caliph.

    When Mohammad died, Islam was already an Empire. They hijacked it for Power and Mammon. Then they spread Islam by SWORD for more Mammon and Power, putting a knife in the back of Christianity.

    • Replies: @BDS Always
    , @Jeff Stryker
  234. As for Israel eventually losing, nuclear weapons have fundamentally altered the character of modern war. No nation that possesses them can lose anymore. The world is simply a different place now. Whether that’s good or bad is a matter of opinion – but the old heroic days of war are mostly over.

    That’s why this whole conflict is at this point very much a farce. Israel cannot be destroyed – an Israeli general recently called Israel an unbeatable country during a speech. It was simply a description of fact, not a boast – and the game is about containing the Arabs and waiting until they exhaust their destructive impulses. Which is slowly but surely happening.

    I am gobsmacked! This is delusional arrogance at its worst (or best). Absolutely NO self-reflection of anything but their perceived entitlement.

    Sentence after sentence.

    Paragraph after paragraph.

    Looks Like the “Samson Option” is the only way out for them, and they’ll take out as many others, as they obviously only care about themselves.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  235. @Assad al-islam

    I lived in Al Kuwair and Medinet Qaboos (Muscat) myself. My house in Kuwair was very near the Bawsher roundabout.

    There are slight differences. Baluchi, for example.

    See, I lived in Muscat for years. I knew many Baluchi, in particular.

    • Thanks: Assad al-islam
  236. @bike-anarkist

    ‘I am gobsmacked! This is delusional arrogance at its worst (or best). Absolutely NO self-reflection of anything but their perceived entitlement.

    Sentence after sentence.

    Paragraph after paragraph.

    Looks Like the “Samson Option” is the only way out for them, and they’ll take out as many others, as they obviously only care about themselves.’

    On the bright side, I alway find it pleasant to realize that Israel thinks military superiority guarantees her national survival.

    She should confer with apartheid South Africa about that one. But as I say, fine with me if she doesn’t.

    In fact, the more she spends on the latest jet fighters, the better. The end will come that much sooner.

    As for ‘the Samson option,’ when push comes to shove, no people has ever chosen national suicide. There, she can compare notes with Imperial Japan.

    Israel will end with a whimper, not a bang.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @Ark
  237. @Colin Wright

    Israelis have paid (or promised to pay??) substantial sums to China, who has built major segments of Israeli infrastructure:

    Why is Israel outsourcing its National Infrastructure to China?

    https://www.beltandroad.news/2019/08/03/why-is-israel-outsourcing-its-national-infrastructure-to-china/

    China is promoting its Belt & Road Initiative, and is seeking to gain influence in Israel like it is in other places in the Middle East and Africa. It also wants Israeli Technology.
    At the same time, Israel looks at China as a trading partner, which unlike the Europeans, is not stuck on the conflict with the Palestinians. All it wants is to do business.
    . . .
    China Civil Engineering Construction Corp. (CCECC) dug the Gilon Tunnel in the North in 2014 at a cost of about NIS 600 million.

    Carmel Tunnel project at a cost of NIS 450 million,

    Tel Aviv’s light rail Red Line at a cost of about NIS 1.7 billion.

    The China Harbour Engineering Co. (CHEC)— construction of the Ashdod Port for a NIS 3.2 billion

    purchase the Alon Tavor power plant, the first of five Israel Electric Corporation power stations to be privatised; NIS 1.9 billion tender together with an Israeli partner to .

    The China Railway Tunnel Group (CRTG) – dig the tunnels for the Tel Aviv Red Line . . . NIS 3 billion,
    install the electronic systems needed to run the light rail at a cost of NIS 2.5 billion.

    Chinese company CRRC Corp. Ltd. —supply rail cars for the Red Line, NIS 1.2 billion.

    The Shanghai International Port Group Co. Ltd. (SIPG) — operate the new Haifa Port, an NIS 1.2 billion contract

    sale of Tnuva Israel’s largest food company to China’s Bright Food
    and
    merger of Israeli agrochemicals manufacturer Makhteshim Agan with ChemChina in
    deals valued together at almost NIS 14 billion.

    Most of the Chinese companies are state-owned.

    NOTE also that what China wants in return, in addition to employment & revenue, is Israeli technology.
    Israelis have sweetheart deals with US corporations (and government) to share in US tech development.

    US may not deal with Huawei because that Chinese thecnology does not have ‘back doors,’ but Israeli tech has back doors into most everything Americans use, so China will have all of that soon enough.

    When Israel stabs USA in the back, the knife will be Made in China.

    • Replies: @Ark
  238. Ark says:
    @Svevlad

    Israel has always been a meme state.
    It’s riddled with contradiction and lacks even the most basic components for a nation state.
    It’s not so much of a state as it is a sand-bunker meant to house one of the largest and most prolific White-collar criminal organisation on the planet.
    Hitler prophesied the consequence of granting organised Jewry a state in Palestine.

    While the Zionists try to make the rest of the World believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindler, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.
    It is a sign of their rising confidence and sense of security that at a time when one section is still playing the German, French-man, or Englishman, the other with open effrontery comes out as the Jewish race.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  239. Ark says:
    @Colin Wright

    She should confer with apartheid South Africa about that one. But as I say, fine with me if she doesn’t.

    The termination of apartheid SA was carried out by organised jewry.
    One need only look at the “White” supporters of the ANC to arrive to such a conclusion.

    In fact, the more she spends on the latest jet fighters, the better. The end will come that much sooner.

    America will subsidize Israel’s military budget like it always has.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  240. Ark says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    You could have just said that this is just China’s attempt to buy American tech that Israel is actively stealing through it’s “Startup nation” scheme, where Peter Singer (a jew vulture capitalist) “convinces” top American tech companies to set up R&D centers in Israel, thus allowing the Mossad to steal American tech.
    It’s mind boggling how no one in Washington is talking about this.

  241. @Assad al-islam

    Salam

    wa ‘alaikumus-salaam!

    Your whole post is very excellent.

    Thank you.

    To him there is no Old Testament (old laws) and New Testament (new laws), only TaNaKh (just same laws). He further mentioned that no other religion have a right to interrupt other religions’ Books to fit their agenda and in the process demean that religion. One cannot argue with this good reasoning.

    Well, respectfully, I disagree.

    Basically, he presupposes a corruption “to fit [an] agenda” by a party other than the Scribes and Pharisees that couldn’t possibly have occurred, given what we know about how guarded the record of Scripture had been before Pauline Christianity. Layfolk of Israel were not permitted to even touch that record. Even the Christian hierarchy hadn’t made their own record accessible to layfolk before Gutenberg’s printing press made it impossible to conceal.

    God gave the same laws to Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, but unfortunately as the time progressed these laws became harsher and harsher.

    Jesus himself is reported to have said that he “did not come to destroy the Law and Prophets” [Matthew 5: 17], and explicitly counseled his disciples to “do everything [the teachers of the law and the Pharisees] do,” as they “sit in the seat of Moses.” [Matthew 23: 1-3]. Where Jesus appeared to act contrarily to the Law, his intent was to call attention to the corruption that had beset Israel — which included The Lie that salvation comes exclusively in Israel — preparing the ground for the coming of Shiloh, whom he also prophesied, as stated unambiguously in The Qur’an [61: 6]. (For biblical references, see Dawud Ahad’s Muhammad in The Bible, p. 129-263.)

    But the very examples of the Prophet sallALLAHU ‘alaihi was sallam which you provide rather undermine your statement. The mercy clause for murderers didn’t exist prior to The Qur’an, and it is not contested among rabbinical scholars that violation of any one of the Ten Commandments was originally prosecuted as a capital crime. Deuteronomy 21: 18-21 warrants death for a rebellious son. No such legal prescription exists in Islam.

    Furthermore, Judaism’s increasingly relaxed provisions for the allowance of non-Jewish resident aliens arose out of necessity. There was really no other choice. In contrast, Islam mandated religious liberty upon its arrival in Medina, even while Muslims had the upper hand. Note, for example, the return of the erstwhile banished Jewish community to Jerusalem affected by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab, as well as the protection accorded to the Christian community therein.

    God bless all His Creation and have Mercy on them!

    Ameen!

  242. @Assad al-islam

    There are some Sunni brothers who try to claim that Mohammad prophesy is in both OT and NT. Basically, they are stretching some very vague verses.

    Not so.

    There is nothing vague about the explicit reference to Muhammad in Song of Songs 5: 16:

    Deuteronomy 33: 2 reads

    The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousand saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

    Sinai locates Moses, Seir locates Jesus, and Paran — the dwelling place of Hagar and Ishmael [Genesis 21: 21] — locates Muhammad, whose bloodless conquest of Mecca was accompanied by precisely ten thousand of his companions.

    In John 14: 16, the term Periqlytos, which is typically translated as “advocate,” “Helper,” “Comforter,” and “Counselor,” etymologically and literally means “the most illustrious, renowned, and praiseworthy.” In Arabic, the precisely corresponding word is Ahmad, a name for the Prophet explicitly referenced in The Qur’an [61: 6].

    Dr. AbdulAhad Dawud’s text provides a far more thorough discussion of the copious prophecies concerning Islam and the Prophet. The fact that they could not possibly have been retrofitted into Scripture after the advent of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula only strengthens the case that they refer to the Prophet.

    I’m not really interested in entertaining the Sunni-Shia’ contention, though I do hold that there should be a renewed analysis of haddith and seerah (biographical) literature. I am not convinced, for example, that either apostasy or adultery are offenses that warrant capital punishment.

    Moreover, contemporary examination of the available haddith literature concerning the age of ‘Aisha radiALLAHU ‘anha at the time of marriage has yielded a conclusion that her betrothal occurred when she was 14, while she was 18 at the time of her marriage:

    https://yaqeeninstitute.org/arnold-yasin-mol/aisha-ra-the-case-for-an-older-age-in-sunni-hadith-scholarship/

    While I realize you have a passionate attachment to Shi’ite convictions, I refrain from these particular contentions in the interest of maintaining peace.

    Thank you again for the opportunity to discuss these issues tactfully.

  243. Art says:
    @Colin Wright

    A real problem here is the (never specified) ‘Jewish spiritualism/ethics/morality.’

    …or whatever. It’s never defined, and the evidence of its persistent absence in practice is simply ignored.

    “Jew values” are a sick joke — just look at Israel!

    Look at Gaza where boys and girls are murdered by Jew snipers. – look at Israeli torcher centers – look at the IDF shooting boys who throw rocks.

    Jews still operate on the ancient primitive “an eye for an eye” technology. They demand two eyes or more from the Palestinians.

    The Jew are inferior ding dongs – most of them have a screw lose when it comes to human morality.

  244. @AnonStarter

    Edit: “… while she was nearly 18 at the time of her marriage.”

  245. @Assad al-islam

    Thank you for your interesting posts.
    I have been looking into the differences between Shia and Sunni and why there are those differences.
    I have bern watching the below video which I came across which has some useful information.

    There are others in here that might also be curious like I am so they also might find this useful.

    One of the main differences, if not the main difference, between Sunni and Shia schools is imamah. This is an attempt to debate the proof of imamah in the one text that both Sunnis and Shias agree on – the Quran.

  246. @Fran Taubman

    Readers here know the American Pravda series by Ron Unz sends terminal cracks across much of the mainstream dogma that poses as modern history, especially that of World War 2. Unz also makes clear that Mossad/Israel First should be the chief suspect behind not only the massacres on September 11, 2001, but also the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. This is a heavy rap. But it is getting unpacked.

    Back to Netanyahu.

    Netanyahu lied brazenly and repeatedly to the United States Congress and the American public. With faulty reasoning and falsified evidence, his intent was to foment wars on other nations. With the help of his Sayanim wrecking crew, Feith, Perle, Wolfowitz et al., he got his wars. Most of them.

    Rivers of blood, spilled at the behest of this monster and a really nasty slice of one extremely selfish little tribe… Or am I wrong? How would you describe it? More important, how do you feel about this, Fran? I mean honestly, in your emotional body. Put aside that pretty shell of cleverness. Tell us, “As a father, an American [or whatever], I really feel that…” Search your soul. Locate your conscience. Check its condition. Only then speak from the heart.

    After a short course the father and the sons
    seemed to me weary, and I thought I saw
    their bodies torn by sharp teeth.

    When I had awakened before the dawn
    I heard my children who were with me
    weeping in their sleep and asking for bread.

    You are cruel indeed not to grieve already
    in thinking of what my heart foreboded;
    and if you do not weep now, by what are you ever moved?

    Hell, Dante, Canto XXXIII

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  247. @Ark

    Hitler. Now there was a white collar criminal lol.

  248. @AnonStarter

    Basically, he presupposes a corruption “to fit [an] agenda” by a party other than the Scribes and Pharisees that couldn’t possibly have occurred, given what we know about how guarded the record of Scripture had been before Pauline Christianity. Layfolk of Israel were not permitted to even touch that record. Even the Christian hierarchy hadn’t made their own record accessible to layfolk before Gutenberg’s printing press made it impossible to conceal.

    Who are you referring to “by a party” I have no problem with Mohammed being prophesied in the OT. Mohammed followed the laws of idolatry by ascribing miracles to Hashem not himself. Jesus claiming you be the Messiah is problem. He DID not follow the prophesy as written. The messiah was to be a man performing no miracles. Jesus raising Lazarus up from the dead was a show off upstaging of Hashem.
    There are way more problems for idol worship then the Pharisees as far as Jesus’s credibility. I would have rejected him back then. Mohammed I have no problems with. If you could answer my confusion over the built in corruption to fit an agenda I can continue. Thanks

  249. @Ark

    ‘In fact, the more she spends on the latest jet fighters, the better. The end will come that much sooner.

    America will subsidize Israel’s military budget like it always has.’

    It’s still a cost. The more conspicuously absurd our subsidies and support of Israel are, the sooner they end.

    The sooner they end, the sooner Israel ends.

  250. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Mohammed followed the laws of idolatry by ascribing miracles to Hashem not himself. Jesus claiming you be the Messiah is problem. He DID not follow the prophesy as written. The messiah was to be a man performing no miracles. Jesus raising Lazarus up from the dead was a show off upstaging of Hashem…’

    You’re an idiot — and in so many ways. I’ll readily agree that I have no knowledge of scripture, and that’s okay, because I don’t see why I should.

    Yet even I know that what you just posted is the most flamboyant nonsense. Raising people from the dead was an attribute of Jewish prophets. So Jesus did it, too. What does this tell us?

    Come on, Fran. Think hard…

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  251. @thotmonger

    I along with most others reject the Jewish conspiracies
    Of 9/11 and the JFk. assassination . It is against the laws of physics to blame one force for the machinations in the world. Jews could never control such events. The unpredictability of the way history, events and temporal time works. It’s all builshit
    Fuck off blood libel claims about the Jews.

    Hell, Dante, Canto XXXIII

    Back atcha mother fucker. I am sure that will be your future home 100% and 200% not me. Take all your Jewish blood libels and slime your body with them you too bit creep talking trash to me like that.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @thotmonger
  252. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Back atcha mother fucker. I am sure that will be your future home 100% and 200% not me. Take all your Jewish blood libels and slime your body with them you too bit creep talking trash to me like that…’

    I think Fran’s found her soul mate. Wedding bells?

  253. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… There are way more problems for idol worship then the Pharisees as far as Jesus’s credibility. I would have rejected him back then. Mohammed I have no problems with…’

    Fran! And to think this one almost went by…

    Whatever happened to all that ‘Judeo-Christian heritage’ barf? I thought we were a team…us Christians and you Jews, united against the unspeakable menace of Islam. You have no problems with the vile Mohammed, but you’d reject our Jesus?

    We are a team, right?

    Together to the end?

    …or until it pays to switch sides yet again.

    Should I write your script for that occasion now, or can you figure it out?

    Maybe I’d better write it. Would you like that?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  254. Seraphim says:
    @AnonStarter

    The obstinacy of Mahomedans in believing the laughable assertion that the Song of Songs is a ‘prediction’ of Mahomed, despite all refutations, is amazing. It is a sign of sheer desperation, clutching at straws in their attempt to ‘prove’ that Mahomed was a prophet.
    The assertions of their ‘scholars’ that ‘parakletos’ (the Holy Spirit) is a corruption of ‘periklytos’ is sheer lunacy. Scholarship is not. Hocus-pocus philology.

    • Thanks: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @Ark
  255. @Colin Wright

    Colin I do not know what is wrong with you but please stop. I am interested in theology as a sincere way to brake the barriers of Jew hatred with Islam. So theology is a way to fight anti Semitism.

    I can respect and feel a kinship with Christianity and vice versa despite the fact that I do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that the trinity is idolatry.

    My post have been sincere and straight forward. Why do you feel the need to follow me around from thread to thread taunting me and misrepresenting what I am writing or being abusive. What is your point?

    There is a logic and thought behind what I am writing.
    If you disagree fine, but please stop with these obnoxious comments. Please leave me alone and stop hounding me.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @geokat62
  256. @Colin Wright

    Raising people from the dead was attributed to Hashem not the prophet. Jesus took sole credit. He performed miracles a though he was the divinity. There was a marked difference.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Colin Wright
  257. ‘…There is a logic and thought behind what I am writing.
    If you disagree fine, but please stop with these obnoxious comments. Please leave me alone and stop hounding me.’

    The difficulty, Fran, is that you’re an Israel supporter.

    You should be hounded. You should find advocating your cause unpleasant and counterproductive and be tempted to desist.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  258. Seraphim says:
    @Fran Taubman

    You mean that the Messiah that the Jews were expecting was a man not performing miracles. Indeed Jesus was not THAT Messiah. Jews were expecting a Messiah to perform a jihad against the enemies of the Jews, trample under his feet and kill them, not to raise them from the dead.

  259. Seraphim says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Jesus performed miracles because He WAS the Divinity.

  260. @Fran Taubman

    ‘Raising people from the dead was attributed to Hashem not the prophet. Jesus took sole credit. He performed miracles a though he was the divinity. There was a marked difference.’

    You would seem to be mistaken.

    ’40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

    41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”’

    It seems to me that Jesus does not claim that he himself raised Lazarus. Just as Elijah did, Jesus is relying on God in Heaven instead.

  261. AaronB says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Hey Fran,

    He’s a classic bully type. He’s the type that bullies nerdy Jewish kids in school.

    This is a common type that we have had to deal with for centuries.

    Why bother getting annoyed at him? This is his nature. He can’t stop.

    He will bully you as long as he can get a reaction out of you. That’s what bullies do.

    For my part, I try and show him sympathy and understanding, because I subscribe to the common notion that bullies are acting out insecurities and inner pain.

    I wouldn’t take anything he says personally – it’s not serious.

    I try and treat him with dignity and as a human being and simply ignore the bullying, as its harmless and comes from a place of pain.

    Responding to anything negative has no value in the end – you just get dragged into the negative. I only want to respond to the positive.

  262. @Fran Taubman

    Forgive me, Mr. Taub,

    I noticed your mischief, the thumb tacks and bubble gum, the sling shots and spilled ink. All distraction, all veneer. All with an appeal to authority, pony tails and an unwrinkled dress.

    I did not mean to knock you off your hinges. I really thought you had more class. And your screed of contempt for the Editor-in-Chief and his humble but well researched essays is quite shocking.

    I wanted to get around any such thing, to reach your better person. But, as a hagfish writhes in infinite directions and exudes slime to escape capture, I figured, so would you use your words against any mere rational particular.

    Thus, I took a different approach. I broached something people used to take pride in: Authenticity. And you gave it to me, I suppose, as best you were able. Thank you for that. On this Lord’s day.

    • LOL: Alexandros
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  263. @Colin Wright

    I am not discussing Israel.I am discussing Judaism and religion.
    Everyone on this site is interested in free speech. Horrible things are said about Jews and Judaism. When not directed at me I do not respond.
    You are ruining the discussions on this thread with your inane retarded comments in an attempt to humiliate me.
    Please stop. I am sure Ron and others would appreciate it as well.

    • Replies: @Kali
    , @Colin Wright
  264. @Assad al-islam

    Omani religions.

    My office was in Mutrah. I was close to Baluchis because many lived around the area.

    Many English people are close to Zanzibaris because they have long ties to England, but I had knew the Baluchi better.

    Baluchi are Shiitte, mostly. That is what makes them different from most Omani, right?

    I lived in Oman for 4 years. First in Kuwair near Bawsher, than MQ near Pizza Hut.

    But my office was in Mutrah right near the Corniche.

    Beautiful country.

  265. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    If you disagree fine, but please stop with these obnoxious comments. Please leave me alone and stop hounding me.

    Fran Taubman to geokat62 – “you cannot compete!”

  266. @thotmonger

    Thus, I took a different approach. I broached something people used to take pride in: Authenticity. And you gave it to me, I suppose, as best you were able. Thank you for that. On this Lord’s day.

    You are welcome on this Lords day. Maybe next time you will think twice before accusing Jews of murder and wrapping it up in some holy the thou religious heaven and hell dogma. You are a liar, casting shade on Jews and Judaism.
    Treacherous and false accusations. The least godly behavior I can think of.

  267. @AnonStarter

    Salam brother AnonStarter,

    You have raised many excellent questions. I will try to answer them briefly. There were no complete written scriptures until the Holy Quran, as the written Semitic languages were not strong enough for writing the scriptures. There were some partial parchment manuscript here and there but none of them complete. I smile at the thought when someone mentions that Hafsa the daughter of first Caliph abu Bakr used to keep her copy of Quran on the top shelf. https://www.oldest.org/religion/qurans/ is the link to first Quran. You will notice that how heavy the complete Quran is as it is written on parchment. It doesn’t have dots to differentiate between the various constant letters, and it lacks the grammar, meaning it doesn’t have vowels and proper written grammar. Basically, it is in old Arabic which is used today by most Arabs and not in Classical Quranic Arabic. One cannot read and understand the early Quran. So there are lots of myths going around about written scriptures.

    My friend the Jewish Moderator from whom I learned Judaism from, learned few things from me too. First he agreed that the people who came out with Moses were “Cow Worshipers”. He said that they were slaves for generation and blamed it on slave mentality. He also agreed that Hebrew was a dead language during the times of Jesus as the Pharisees didn’t allow the commoners to converse in Hebrew to each other. He further agreed that Hebrew was revived in the late 18th century from Arabic. But he said that the Hebrew language was dormant and not dead. Big difference!

    There is NO verse in the Holy Quran calling Christians as “Idol Worshipers”. Quran calls them MuShrik, meaning assigning Partners to God. Sharik is a Partner, and they do Shirk by assigning Partners. But Shirk is not exclusively for Christians, as there are times we all including the Muslims do Shirk now and then. Kafir means someone who hides the Truth, as there are times we all including the Muslims who do Kuffur (hide the truth). So the Muslims are included in both Shirk and Kuffur as they sometimes are guilty of it. Prince of Peace Jesus famous saying, “turn the other cheek” is the law of compassionate.

    Umar ibn al-Khattab the second Caliph had no right to allow the Jews back who were personally banished by the Prophet. But I can understand that the Sunni belief in Predestination and that the Ruling Class is chosen by God. Thus, the Ruling Class can change the religion as Umar ibn al-Khattab did on many occasions. https://www.al-islam.org/understanding-karbala-allamah-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/how-imam-hasan-and-imam-husayn-saved-islam, here is how the both grandsons of the Prophet saved Islam from destruction by scarifying their lives to ensure “Separation of Church and State”. Today, the majority of Sunni believe that not every Ruling Class can change the religion, but the first four Caliphs were allowed to. They call them The Rashidun Caliphs (The Rightly Guided Caliphs). Quran is very clear that, “To You Your Religion and To Me Mine”, so whom I to quibble.

    I hope we continue our excellent dialogue without quibbles and good manners of Islam. You are much better writer than I am.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @AnonStarter
  268. Kali says:
    @Fran Taubman

    . I am sure Ron and others would appreciate it as well.

    Actually no, Fran.
    Though I myself hit Colin with my own rebuke about what I saw as him posting too much (I was having a bad day – sorry Colin) I think that his responses to your hateful rantings are of great value to UR.

    Certainly he saves the rest of us the time and trouble of responding to you more than a couple of times a day.

    However, if you really want him to slow down maybe you should do the same.

    Love,
    Kali.

    • Agree: Fran Taubman
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  269. @AaronB

    Thanks Aaron. I do ignore him for the most part. Lately I have been answering him to change it up.

    He obsessively follows me around. There is nothing worse then an abusive bully/ stalker. That behavior would be embarrassing to a normal person.

    Obsessive behavior especially the male / female kind indicates that there is no one home. The obsessive personality lacks their own identity lonely types with no lives other the their obsessive imprint on the subject of their obsession. It is sad and I do have compassion from a psychological perspective. It is still very disturbing to be on the other end of someone’s insane obsession. I am hopeful the moderator will jump in.

    Really great conversation you are having with AS. I asked him directly about the “corrupt” part of our liturgy. Where and how we messed up. I also think the prophecy of Mohammed in the OT as in Song of Songs is weak. The messiah prophecy was much more detailed and obvious. The lion will lie down with the lamb. Good job.

    • Replies: @renfro
  270. @Gilad Atzmon

    If they were still Chosenites, they were still racial supremacists and you are describing a distinction without a difference.

    • Agree: Assad al-islam
  271. @Assad al-islam

    You make me long for Salalah. The most beautiful place in the world during the Khareef. Oman is a great country.

    I was blessed to live there.

    Take care of yourself, bro.

    • Agree: Assad al-islam
  272. Anon[402] • Disclaimer says:

    Back of the envelope tracking of “obsessive stalker”

    Colin Wright comments. 46
    To Taubman. 17 or 18
    To Aaronb 16

    Taubman comments. 37
    To Colin Wright 10
    To geokat 10

    geokat comments 24
    To Taubman 14

    use of epithets
    Fuck 3. All = Taubman
    Bullshit. 7 4 = Taubman

    Taubman used more ad homynym than anyone else.

    #278 = Taubman projecting — absolutely no doubt

  273. @AnonStarter

    though I do hold that there should be a renewed analysis of haddith and seerah (biographical) literature. I am not convinced, for example, that either apostasy or adultery are offenses that warrant capital punishment.

    Moreover, contemporary examination of the available haddith literature concerning the age of ‘Aisha radiALLAHU ‘anha at the time of marriage has yielded a conclusion that her betrothal occurred when she was 14, while she was 18 at the time of her marriage:

    Salam,

    I fully agree with you!

  274. @AaronB

    God wasn’t unclear, but men have to apply his words to new circumstances as they arise.

    Shalom Aaron,

    You write very well and don’t you think the above is true for all religions?

    I have some more questions for you. According the Jewish Moderator, he used to claim that, “Creator cannot be creation”. We didn’t get to around this as the forum shut down due to lack of funding. As Shia Muslims we also believe that the Creator cannot be creation. And, everything one sees around is creation including the Quran (Scripture). Of course, this include emotions too as these are creations too. What is the belief of Judaism regarding this. If emotions are not creation, is God fearful sometimes? Fear is one of the emotions!

    Blessed be HaShem! (Blessed be The Name)!

    • Replies: @BDS Always
  275. @Kali

    ‘…Though I myself hit Colin with my own rebuke about what I saw as him posting too much (I was having a bad day – sorry Colin)…’

    I didn’t exactly find it flattering, but I took it in stride. For one thing, it’s true.

    I find Ron’s two-posts-per-hour limit irksome — but it’s probably good for me.

  276. @AaronB

    ‘Hey Fran,

    He’s a classic bully type. He’s the type that bullies nerdy Jewish kids in school…’

    That’s kind of wide of the mark.

    …although I have to admit, the thought of making an exception for you has its points.

    …but you’re really small and nerdy, aren’t you? It would be dreadful to lose.

  277. @Assad al-islam

    I have a Sikh friend who loves the below gentleman in the video.
    Ties in very much with the so called Anti-Christ and the 3rd World War.

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
    , @Seraphim
  278. @IT'S ME

    Thank you to share Ariel Toaff’s work. The global censorship of his scholarly book (FIRST edition) is just as shocking at its contents. And while this is not the right comment thread to discuss Jewish ritual murder, it is the right time of year.

    As observant Jews celebrate Purim this year and gloat over the mythical mass murder of Haman and his entire tribe, it reinforces — and illustrates — a collective mindset that ardently justifies genocide.

    Yes, I have heard Netanyahu is atheist, but where does all his cold blooded iniquity come from?

    • Replies: @BDS Always
  279. renfro says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The obsessive personality lacks their own identity lonely types with no lives other the their obsessive imprint on the subject of their obsession. It is sad and I do have compassion from a psychological perspective. It is still very disturbing to be on the other end of someone’s insane obsession. I am hopeful the moderator will jump in.

    You realize do you not, that you are describing yourself.

    The difference between some of us who talk about Jews and Israel is that it is for a ’cause/purpose’….riding both the US and Palestine of the evilness of Zionism and Israel by exposing it.

    Your obsession is an obsession with your “Jew-Selves’…..you are consumed with yourselves, eaten up with ‘Jewishness’, you are like a pit of snakes in your discontents, envy and inadequacies, constantly snarling and hissing trying to convince us ‘Jewdom’ is respectable and important when the majority of the world sees you as a primitive destructive cult.

    And your obsession is what is going to kill the Jews and Israel in the end.

  280. Ark says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    it was this vision of Zionism that led to the formation of israel and and also responsible for Israeli military successes in 56, 67 and even 73 but then something happened.

    That is simply false, your worldview seems to be rooted in early Zionist fantasies.
    Since the moment Israel was born, it heavily relied on great powers for it’s very existence.
    The founding of Israel required the material, political, military and financial support of the two super powers of the time (The Soviet Union/US) as well as that of a major European colonial power (the UK).
    Stalin send a great deal of arms through the Czech republic, as well as large amounts of captured Nazi equipment.
    And even than it barely managed to defeat a collective Arab force that wasn’t half it’s size, with the Egyptians almost taking tel Aviv.
    Later on America would open an entire front with the Soviets on behalf of Israel.
    Arab nationalism is what gave the Soviet Union an entry point in the ME, the West refused to supply the Arabs that were hostile to Israel and thus they went over to the Soviets.
    I could go on, but I don’t want to make this too long of a comment.

    • Agree: Assad al-islam
  281. @BDS Always

    I have a Sikh friend who loves the below gentleman in the video.
    Ties in very much with the so called Anti-Christ and the 3rd World War.

    Salam,

    I resist him with every bone in my body. He is an end time nut like John Hagee, who have prophesied the end times many a times and then moved the goal post. And, he is a biggest liar who twists and spins Islam.

    • Replies: @BDS Always
  282. @Assad al-islam

    Salam brother AnonStarter

    wa ‘alaikiumus-salaam.

    There were no complete written scriptures until the Holy Quran, as the written Semitic languages were not strong enough for writing the scriptures.

    It isn’t really relevant whether or not there was a complete written copy of The Torah prior to that of The Qur’an, as The Qur’an confirms The Torah had been given to the Children of Israel. The same is true for The Gospel (Good News). This is the only salient point we need to consider.

    First he agreed that the people who came out with Moses were “Cow Worshipers”. He said that they were slaves for generation and blamed it on slave mentality.

    Veneration of the cow is an ancient phenomenon and, during Israel’s captivity therein, Egypt was certainly no stranger to it. Consider the blessings to be derived from cattle: dairy products, meat, fertilizer, and agricultural labor. In a world devoid of the numerous contemporary conveniences and luxuries to which we’ve become accustomed, heightened consciousness of the cow as a being vital to human existence was more commonplace. To more than a few, it was regarded as a life-giver; hence, the animistic adoration accorded to it.

    Umar ibn al-Khattab the second Caliph had no right to allow the Jews back who were personally banished by the Prophet.

    The Jewish community of Jerusalem hadn’t been banished by the Prophet, which would have been a historical impossibility. It had been sent into exile by the authorities of Christian Byzantium. ‘Umar certainly had every right to allow Jews back since a precedent for the protection of their rights had already been established in Medina by the Prophet himself.

    Insofar as your description of the four successors to the Prophet are concerned, you’re now drifting into contentious terrain, which rather belies the prayer at the close of your response.

    We’re just going to have to agree to disagree, Assad. If you want to continue apace with Shi’ite apologetics, that’s your call. I’m simply not interested.

  283. @AnonStarter

    The Jewish community of Jerusalem hadn’t been banished by the Prophet, which would have been a historical impossibility.

    Salam,

    The Jews of Medina who lived on the highland and the Prophet (saws) with the Muslims lived on the lowland, put a knife in the back of the Prophet and Islam. After the War of Khyber, Prophet (saws) banished the Jews from the Muslim lands. Again, no quibble!

    Feel sorry for the Palestinians!

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  284. @Assad al-islam

    Sallam is not my name Assad.
    He is very popular in some Christian circles.
    I like learning differant bits of history so have found the few videos that I have seen or part seen interesting especially the aspects to do with interest, money and finance. With whats going on in the middle east and those Squatters living on stolen land he has some valid points.

  285. @Assad al-islam

    wa ‘alaikumus-salaam.

    The Jews of Medina who lived on the highland and the Prophet (saws) with the Muslims lived on the lowland, put a knife in the back of the Prophet and Islam.

    Agreed.

    After the War of Khyber, Prophet (saws) banished the Jews from the Muslim lands.

    Individual Jewish tribes were sent into exile, each on different occasions according to the exigencies of conflict.

    These are not to be confused with the Jewish community of Jerusalem whom ‘Umar returned. We don’t do collective punishment. Speaking of which …

    Feel sorry for the Palestinians!

    Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived in relative peace with each other for over one thousand years following the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem. May justice and peace be restored among them.

    Ameen.

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  286. @AnonStarter

    ‘Umar certainly had every right to allow Jews back since a precedent for the protection of their rights had already been established in Medina by the Prophet himself.

    The treaty was no longer valid as the Jews broke the treaty. The treaty should have not applied in future cases. Though it brought in massive revenues after the demise of the Prophet (saws)!

    • Disagree: AnonStarter
  287. renfro says:
    @Nonny Mouse

    Monday, March 9, 2020

    Israel discovers 5,000-year-old Canaanite city with ritual temple
    Source: Xinhua| 2019-10-06 19:12:16|Editor: Shi Yinglun

    ISRAEL-HARISH-ARCHAEOLOGY-ANCIENT CITY
    An Israeli archaeologist shows an artifact at the ancient site of En Esur (Ein Asawir) where a 5,000-year-old city was uncovered, near Harish, Israel, Oct. 6, 2019. A huge 5,000-year-old Canaanite city with a ritual temple was discovered in the center of Israel, the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) reported on Sunday. The ancient city, which is spread over 650,000 square meters, was discovered in archeological excavations in the Sharon region, near the new city of Harish. The archaeologists revealed a planned megalopolis city from the end of the 4th millennium B.C. in the Early Bronze Age, surrounded by a fortification wall with residential and public areas, streets and alleys. (JINI via Xinhua)

    [MORE]

    JERUSALEM, Oct. 6 (Xinhua) — A huge 5,000-year-old Canaanite city with a ritual temple was discovered in the center of Israel, the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) reported on Sunday.

    The ancient city, which is spread over 650,000 square meters, was discovered in archeological excavations in the Sharon region, near the new city of Harish.

    The archaeologists revealed a planned megalopolis city from the end of the 4th millennium B.C. in the Early Bronze Age, surrounded by a fortification wall with residential and public areas, streets and alleys.

    Some 6,000 residents lived in the ancient city, making their living from agriculture and maintaining trade relations with different regions, cultures and kingdoms in the area.

    The impressive-dimensions temple was discovered in the public area of the city. A huge stone basin was exposed in its courtyard for liquids used for ritual ceremonies.

    Inside the temple was a facility with burnt animal bones – evidence of sacrifices – as well as rare figurines, including a human head and the imprint of a man with his hands up and next to him an animal figure.

    In an excavation that deepened beneath the city’s buildings, a 7,000-year-old settlement was discovered, dating to the Chalcolithic period.

    The excavations also revealed millions of pottery fragments, flint tools, basalt stone vessels being brought to the site, and more.

    Two abundant springs that originated in the area in antiquity appear to have been the site of attraction throughout the periods.

    According to archaeologists, “the city is one of the first steps of Canaanite culture in the ancient Land of Israel, which is consolidating its identity in the newly established urban sites.

    “Such a city could not develop without a deliberate guiding hand and administrative mechanism behind its founding. The impressive design and the fact that tools were brought from ancient Egypt and seal imprints are evidence of this,” they said.

    They added that the findings allow, for the first time, to define the ancient cultural characteristics of this area, and the remains exposed indicate an organized society and a social hierarchy
    The discoveries include part of a Canaanite inscription on a piece of pottery. That inscription shows the first known use of the letter “samekh,” which also appears in the Hebrew alphabet as a version of the English “s” sound.

    Canaanite inscriptions are very rare. Only a few have been found in the past 30 or 40 years, Garfinkel said. “We had A, and B, and C, and D … but there was one letter that was never found before — the Canaanite or Hebrew ‘samekh’,” he said. “In this temple, we found a fragment of an inscription, and on it appears the earliest known letter samekh in the world.”

    The discovery is especially important because the ancient Canaanites are now thought to have invented the first alphabet.

    “Before this, you have the cuneiform writing technique in Mesopotamia, and you have the hieroglyph system in Egypt,” Garfinkel said. “But these were very complicated writing techniques with hundreds of signs, and only scribes who learned for years knew how to read and write.”
    In contrast, the Canaanite alphabet could be written and read much more easily. “The Canaanites invented the alphabet, and it spread all over the world — from Canaanite to Hebrew, then to Greek and Latin, and then to English,” he said. “And it is now very common all over the world.”

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-10/06/c_138451734.htm

    • Replies: @Ark
  288. @AnonStarter

    These are not to be confused with the Jewish community of Jerusalem whom ‘Umar returned. We don’t do collective punishment.

    There is no collective punishment as they were not sent to exile by Muslims. However, being very rich, their return added massive of revenues to the treasury, under the so called, “Protection Tax”.

    The Jews forced the Prophet’s hand when he migrated to Medina to sign the treaty. The Prophet very well knew that they will break the treaty and put a knife in him and Islam. Thus, they refused for the security of Medina, saying that they have nothing to with wars between the Prophet and his clan. So the Prophet said, if you want us to provide the “Protection” then you have to pay higher taxes. They were very rich and agreed, but the Prophet knew that at the first opportunity, they will break the treaty.

    • Disagree: AnonStarter
    • Replies: @BDS Always
  289. renfro says:

    JEW OVERLOAD !!!

    Enough of the Jew vr Israeli babble babble,the religion babble,I don’t care who or what the Jews are…..everyone with a third of a brain knows Jews were nothing but pagan Arabs like other semites, , they didnt even figure that large in ancient days as hardly anything was written about them or even mentioned by Rome Egypt, Persia, etc..during those times. The ONLY history they had is the one they made up for themselves in biblical writings.
    And yet here you all are discussing this myth of the Jews as if it was real history…lol.
    I guess people love their fiction.

    Here is ALL you need to understand the Jews you are dealing with today:

    “The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful attempt on the life of God’s chosen children and, thus, on God Himself. ”.……Abe Foxman , Frontline (January 1994)

    Jews think they are God Himself…….now….deal with their insanity.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  290. @thotmonger

    ” It reinforces — and illustrates — a collective mindset that ardently justifies genocide”
    Spot on with the above comment.

    Israel is Bolshevik Backdoor into US Tech Grid.
    People rely on technology – from banking to electrical power grids, to national security and food production. Who ever rules that technology rules the world. What if psychopaths ruled technology and were sworn to cull the worlds population and destroy western civilization?
    https://www.henrymakow.com/2020/03/Israel-is-Bolshevik-Backdoor-into-US-Technology.html

  291. @renfro

    JEW OVERLOAD !!!

    Are you suggesting we’re emitting too many joules to sustain the functionality of this thread?

    Ohm, my … watt have I done?

  292. @Assad al-islam

    Was the protection Tax set at a standard rate for everyone who was eligible to pay it or was it different rates depending on a persons wealth?

    Do you have any information on this which I could read up on?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Assad al-islam
  293. @Fran Taubman

    ‘I am not discussing Israel.I am discussing Judaism and religion.
    Everyone on this site is interested in free speech…’

    Fran, if you were just gassing away about Judaism and religion abstracted from anything else, I’d almost certainly ignore you. Right now a Sunni and a Shi’a seem to be playing bumper cars; it’s not really of any interest to me, they haven’t said anything I feel qualified to comment on, and so I don’t.

    However, you endlessly attempt to promote Israel, denigrate and vilify her opponents and the peoples and religions she grinds underfoot, seek to deny Israel’s crimes and those of Judaism, and make grossly erroneous statements about it all.

    Happily, I am usually able to point out where you are wrong, so I do. After all, not merely are your lies promoting suffering, oppression, and gross injustice, but my country is implicated in these evils you would perpetuate.

    So I’m practically obliged to do what I can to frustrate you. Live with it.

    • Agree: Kali
    • Thanks: BDS Always
  294. geokat62 says:

  295. geokat62 says:

    Now, repeat after me, goys… “Diversity Is Our Greatest Strength!“

    Thanks, JSOs!

  296. Seraphim says:
    @Colin Wright

    What a good proof that Jewish minds are so much twisted by the meme of ‘Christians always inflicted unimaginable sufferance on Jews’ for no other reason that they were Jews, that time becomes irrelevant. Christian ‘anti-Semitism’ is eternal!

  297. Ark says:
    @Seraphim

    What’s more obscene is how seriously people take the Akhenaten’s spin off cult.

  298. Seraphim says:
    @BDS Always

    You mean you have a sick friend who loves the bufoon who pretends to know all the secrets of the future?

  299. Ark says:
    @renfro

    It wasn’t the Cannonites that invented the earliest script.
    It was the Phoenicians, calling them Cannonites is deceptive, as per usual.
    They never referred themselves as such.
    Furthermore, the Phoenician script is derived from the proto-Sinatic script (an ancient Egyptian script that’s derived from the hieroglyphics).

    • Agree: thotmonger
  300. @Assad al-islam

    Islam doesn’t need OT nor NT to fit their agenda. There are some Sunni brothers who try to claim that Mohammad prophesy is in both OT and NT. Basically, they are stretching some very vague verses. Remember that it is claimed the Mohammad plagiarized both Judaism and Christianity but got the stories wrong. I can promise you with utmost assurance that yes, all the stories are different. But I can again assure you with upmost certainty that we are all created by the Same GOD Elohim, from Adam to judgement day

  301. @Assad al-islam

    My comment got posted to quickly

    The whole world including Jews and Israel knows that their days are numbered as the writing is on the walls. But the Jews, haughtiness makes them blind to reality throughout the history. Same reason for the fall of satan, over and over and over…..

    I listened to the tape of Sheikh Imran Hosein. He seemed very haughty and blind to reality, to me no different then the Jews. If the three religions are all the same as you said in another post, why are the Jews viewed as satan, why the hatred of Zionist. Seems like small potatoes no bigger then the Shia, Sunni split. We all go our own way in the end what is the big deal. Many forces as play.

    The Jews stabbed the Prophet, the Caliphs killed Ali, tortured and killed the Prophets daughter what is the difference?

    • Replies: @Ark
    , @Assad al-islam
  302. geokat62 says:

    The title of this video says it all!

    TOTAL JEWISH CONTROL OVER AMERICA

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/6bnTobAtPXsV/

  303. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    We’re just going to have to agree to disagree, Assad. If you want to continue apace with Shi’ite apologetics, that’s your call. I’m simply not interested.

    Beautiful. Trust me, the wider UNZ community will thank you.

    Wa salaam.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
  304. Ark says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The creation of a Jew state in Palestine has led to all sorts of wars in the region, the crusade led by the US to crush anyone who opposes it, is equally important.
    This Western project is opposed by the vast majority of the inhabitants in the region, not just Muslims even.
    The so called “Sunni/Shia” split is utterly un-important in comparison, I wouldn’t even call it a conflict, It’s more of a political disagreement.

  305. Talha says:
    @BDS Always

    This is probably one of the most concise descriptions I’ve come across:
    “Compensation. Poll tax levied on non-Muslims as a form of tribute and in exchange for an exemption from military service, based on Quran 9:29 . Sometimes conceived as a graduated head tax in which the rich paid more than the poor and the penniless were exempt; other times, it was strictly applied. If a Muslim leader did not provide his subjects with adequate security, he was obliged to refund the tax; Salah al-Din ( Saladin ) returned the money to his Christian subjects when he was compelled to withdraw his army from Syria. There is no consensus about its applicability in the modern world.”
    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e1206

    Basically it was a tax on military age males (women and children being exempt). It was fairly flexible in application in theory and practice, for instance:
    -Some schools of Islamic law and rulers pinned it at 5% (double that of zakat, which Muslims pay) across the board
    -Some charged a certain number of silver coins for lower income, double that for middle income and double that for highest income
    -Some people were exempted from paying if they provided military service instead; but this was usually only negotiated with hardy tribesmen (like some Christian Turks) on the borderlands that would be a boon on the battlefield and not liabilities like scribes and candlemakers

    Payment of jizyah into the public treasury also granted one rights of benefit from the same*.

    Hope that helps.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    In the canonical work on taxation for the Hanafi school (Imam Abu Yusuf’s “Kitab al-Kharaj”), this incident is reported regarding the update in policy by the second caliph, Umar (ra):
    Omar ra passed by the door of people at which there was a beggar who was an old blind man. Omar ra struck his arm from behind and asked, to which People of the Book do you belong ? He said, “I am a Jew.” Omar ra said: “What has compelled you to begging?” The Jewish man replied, “I am begging in order to get money to pay for jizyah and my need, as I am old.” Then Omar ra held his hand, and took him to his house and gave him something and some money. Omar ra then sent him to the Muslim treasurer (bay al-mal). Omar ra instructed the treasurer to take care of this man and whoever was like him. Omar ra added that; “With this man we have not done justice to him as we took jizyah from him when he was young but we forsook him when he was old. Verily, the sadaqa is for the poor and destitute. And this one is a destitute from the People of the Book.” So Omar ra exempted taking the jizyah from him.

    • Replies: @BDS Always
    , @AnonStarter
  306. @Talha

    Thank you for sharing that with me as I am always happy to learn new things.
    Makes sense to me. Was this the begining of the welfare system?
    Today we see the opposite with the rich getting away with either paying no tax or lower tax than the rest of the people.
    We are the host that the parasites feed on with them thinking up new ways to tax us even more..

    • Replies: @Talha
  307. @Talha

    -Some schools of Islamic law and rulers pinned it at 5% (double that of zakat, which Muslims pay) across the board

    Which is peculiar, given that there’s no precedent for this in the lifetime of the Prophet. It’s also worth mentioning that the jizya collected was originally reserved for expenditure upon those communities who paid it, a commonwealth for the protected.

    However incredible it may sound, there was a period in early dar al-Islam when poverty simply didn’t exist. The example you cite was an outlier, one of a handful that was rectified upon notice.

    was-salaam.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Talha
  308. @BDS Always

    Was the protection Tax set at a standard rate for everyone who was eligible to pay it or was its different rates depending on a person’s wealth?

    Do you have any information on this which I could read up on?

    Peace brother,

    I wasn’t ignoring you as due to time difference, I could not answer you earlier. Protection in Arabic means, “Dhimmi”. Here is an article on Wikipedia on Dhimmi, but being on Wikipedia one has to take it with a fistful of salt.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

    [MORE]

    Basically, the city of Mecca was owned by Quraysh Tribe. The Mecca city was a sanctuary city, where everyone came to worship their gods (full of idols) or peace is to be discussed between the varying tribes. No arms were allowed in Mecca and the Quraysh were minting money. Under Quraysh tribe, there were two tribes the Banu Omayyad whose leader was abu Sufyan. The smaller tribe was Banu Hashem whose leader was Ali’ father, called abi Talib and course uncle of Mohammad. There used to be all kind of preachers in Mecca. When Mohammad started to preach Monotheism against idol worship, he started to have some gatherings. Abu Sufyan used to complain to abi Talib regarding Mohammad, eventually Mohammad and his family were put under house arrest for three years and left starving.

    Eventually, Mohammad first and only beloved wife, Khadija for 27 years died. At the same time abi Talib died too, thus Mohammad life was now under threat as the protection of abi Talib was gone. So, one-night Mohammad left his family with Ali, and had Ali to sleep in his bed, thus fooling the assassins. At night he left for Medina. When he arrived in Medina, there were few Muslims there who have heard about him. These were called Helpers, and those migrated from Medina were called Migrates. These Muslims lived in lowlands, and the top of the mountain at the highlands lived two very rich powerful Jewish tribes, who were friends with abu Sufyan. There was a third very rich powerful Jewish tribe called Banu Nadir living in Medina too. Now Mohammad living in the lowlands created a massive problem for them.

    So, these tribes used every trick in the book against Mohammad. Eventually, they forced Mohammad’s hand to sign a treaty with them. At the same time, Abu Sufyan was massing armies against Mohammad and his few adherents. So, these Jewish tribes told Mohammad, they have nothing to do with his rivalry with Abu Sufyan, as this their clannish matter and they don’t want to be part of it and they said they will not help Mohammad but asked “Protection” from him. Basically, a trick. So, Mohammad signed an agreement with them and charged them higher charity for their Dhimmi status. But Mohammad knew that at very first opportunity they will put a knife in him. Abu Sufyan had several wars with Mohammad and his adherents, and even though Muslims being smaller in numbers have always prevailed. Eventually, abu Sufyan got with the Jewish tribes and together they had war against the Muslims, called the Khyber war. The Muslims almost perished but were victories in the end. Mohammad exiled all the three Jewish tribes.

    Islam become almost 100,000 adherents. So, at the end, Mohammad with his congregation marched drumming towards Mecca. Abu Sufyan wet in his pants, gave the keys to Mecca to Mohammad and accepted Islam. Mohammad then destroyed the idols in the House of God, built by Abraham, father of Ismael and Isaac. But abu Sufyan was not over with Mohammad. When Mohammad died, the Islam was hijacked while his body was still warm and not buried yet. The Ruling Class started to spread Islam with SWORD for Mammon and Power. The coffers were filled with Zakat (charity) from the Muslims and Dhimmi money from those who refused to convert. Muslims almost reached France, eventually and rightly the Crusades started against them.

    The third Caliph Usman (Uthman) was from Banu Omayyad and close kin of abu Sufyan. He was into nepotism, building palaces, accumulating wealth spreading Islam by SWORD and had a long reign. He appointed Muawiya the son of abu Sufyan as the Governor of Syria. Eventually, Usman was killed by his rag-tag starving troops and they didn’t allow his body to be buried for days. The masses picked Ali as fourth Caliph. Ali asked Muawiya to relinquish his post. He refused and had Ali murdered and become the fifth Caliph by sword. Then the Caliphate became the Kingdom (Dynasty) of Banu Omayyad. He made his son Yazid the sixth Caliph (grandson of abu Sufyan) who massacred Mohammad’s grandson Hussain and all the male members. He then held the decapitated head of Hussain, started hitting it with a stick saying, “your grandfather took away the income of Mecca from us, but he has now left us the Kingdom of Islam. To him revenge was sweet.

  309. @Fran Taubman

    I listened to the tape of Sheikh Imran Hosein. He seemed very haughty and blind to reality, to me no different then the Jews. If the three religions are all the same as you said in another post, why are the Jews viewed as satan, why the hatred of Zionist.

    Shalom sister Fran,

    Not only the three religions are same, but all religions are same too. Oman’s sixty percent population is Indians and mostly Hindus. They are Monotheistic like you and I. Take the “B” out of Brahma and Brahman and what you get. See the equivalent words in the TaNaKh, when Elohim is addressed. The 3 letters root is RHM which means womb.

    Jews are never viewed as satan (adversary) and there is no such thing as serpent. In Judaism there are no fallen angels like in Islam. In Judaism there is an angel who is in good standing with God and who tempts people with the approval of Elohim, for example Prophet Job. Lucifer in the OT is a Greek name, wherein TaNaKh it is “Morning Star” a reference to King of Babylon. In Islam, satan is a whisper, a whisper deep down in one’s heart (mind) and others whispering to you, including the mass media (George Orwell). We are back to Yetzer Hara and Yetzer Hatov. I see you a very, very good moral person, who is very religious like me.

    So, let us separate Judaism from the State of Israel. Quran tells us that they are Jews and Christians who are humble and meek and worship Elohim all night long. The State of Israel is very evil and on a self destruction path. It is good people like you who have an influence on Israel. The Jews are staying there and are not going anywhere, so do the Palestinians. The Palestinians were uprooted and are the victims. Israel while taking peace is devouring the whole of Palestine by building settlements. Israel should bring the Palestinians out in open for the world to see and offer them a peace plan which they cannot refuse. Jews are very moral people and I believe most of them want to do this, but are caught up….

    So almost everyone on this site are not against good Jews, like Ron. But they are aghast againt the repugnant State of Israel.

    Blessed be haShem! (Blessed be the Name)!

  310. @AnonStarter

    ‘… However incredible it may sound, there was a period in early dar al-Islam when poverty simply didn’t exist…’

    Or, conceivably, records aren’t all that complete or accurate.

    • Replies: @Talha
  311. Talha says:
    @BDS Always

    No problem. Since this is pretty off topic, I’ll put the rest of my response under the MORE tag to free up space out of courtesy for other UNZ folks who may not be interested.

    [MORE]

    Was this the begining of the welfare system?

    Basically. The public treasury was supposed to be used for the common good like roads, defense, taking care of vulnerable citizens, even helping slaves get manumitted, etc. There are even some schools (like the Hanafi school) that consider anything that is mined (like gold, silver, or other valuable resource etc.) to go to the public treasury at a rate of 20% for public benefit.

    rich getting away with either paying no tax or lower tax than the rest of the people.

    I’d be lying if I said some of the later Muslim rulers didn’t abuse the public coffers for personal gain. In fact, some Ummayyad rulers would not allow non-Muslims to be officially recognized as converts so that they could keep charging them jizyah instead of zakat – because jizyah was more fungible and its spending was less restrictive than zakat was. These kinds of policies are what eventually led to the Abbasid revolt by pissed-off non-Arabs.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  312. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Possible…also possible that what was considered poor then and now are very different in nature and thus the very definition is not comparable. There are probably homeless people with cell phones walking around.

    [MORE]

    When these kinds of things were recorded in the history books what it usually meant was that there was either nobody qualified to receive zakat or were but weren’t willing to receive it (due to personal dignity and the like). The bare minimum for zakat eligibility (though it varies slightly among schools) is that a person has to own less than around 21 ounces of silver or 3 ounces of gold (whatever is less – you can find daily rates here): https://www.nzf.org.uk/Knowledge/Calculation_Rules/Nisab).

    And it wasn’t like there weren’t intermittent issues like famines and plagues and wars and what not that would throw things off. In general though, the Rashidun administration was extremely lean in operating costs compared to the bloated Byzantine and Sassanid empires, though certain rulers like the Ummayyads did their best to catch up.

    Peace.

  313. ‘In general though, the Rashidun administration was extremely lean in operating costs compared to the bloated Byzantine and Sassanid empires, though certain rulers like the Ummayyads did their best to catch up.’

    Indeed. The Byzantine state had a huge bureaucracy, and that in turn meant a crushing tax burden — one reason the early Muslims met little resentment among the peoples they conquered.

    Another would be that the Byzantine Empire was very concerned to enforce doctrinal conformity — and that of course implied the oppression and persecution of any religious dissidents.

    …and there were a lot of those. The Byzantine Empire was never able to come up with a single doctrine that satisfied all its inhabitants. In contrast, the Muslims didn’t particularly care what form of Christianity — or Judaism — its subjects practiced.

    The upshot, of course, was that for many inhabitants of the empire, the arrival of the Muslims meant greater religious freedom and lower taxes. Pretty hard to get too worked up about that.

    Curiously, somewhat similar considerations came into play again seven hundred years later and facilitated further Islamic conquests. When the Ottoman Turks crossed the Bosphorus and expanded into what is now Greece, they found an Orthodox Christian population suffering under the exactions and persecutions of Western Catholic adventurers intent on establishing their various petty principalities in the region.

    ‘Better the Turk than the Frank.’ That was the slogan then, and it had presumably been something similar seven centuries earlier when the first Arab conquerors overran Syria and Egypt.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  314. Talha says:
    @AnonStarter

    Salaam Bro,

    See below MORE tag to save space for others.

    [MORE]

    Which is peculiar, given that there’s no precedent for this in the lifetime of the Prophet.

    The issue is that it was never well-defined at the time by the Prophet (pbuh) thus it was open to interpretation.

    The example you cite was an outlier

    To a degree, yes. However there are other situations that should be taken into account. So, for instance, customs duties – paid on a yearly basis, which is an up-front payment of the equivalent of zakat or jizyah – on merchandise that was imported into Muslim lands was 2.5% for all Muslim citizens and 5% for all non-Muslim citizens. This was not an outlier, but rather the normative ruling in the Hanafi school.

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  315. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Basically. From the introduction of the seminal book by Prof. Robert Hoyland – “Seeing Islam as Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam” – (which is a compilation of the earliest non-Muslim writings on the subject).

    [MORE]

    “This trend continued and was extended under the Muslims, who made little distinction between any of the conquered peoples, designating most as ‘People of the Book’ and offering them freedom of action in return for loyalty and taxes. This was accepted with some relief by many groups formerly under the rule of Byzantine emperors, who had generally pursued a less liberal policy than their Sasanian counterparts with regad to religious difference…One is forced to conclude that the differing reactions of Christians reflects not a difference in ther treatment at the hands of the Arabs, but rather a difference in their perceptions and intentions, which in turn depended upon and mirrored their differing allegiances…But in Greek writings the Muslims were never anything but enemies of God…The crucial difference was that the Christians of Iraq had no lost or diminished sovereignty to lament. As regards their faith, they had no reason to rue the Sasanian’s passing nor to expect deliverance from them. Thus it was both easier and more necessary for them to accept the change of rulers than for their Byzantine counterparts…It is, then, becasue the Arabs were to them political as well as religious enemies that Byzantines were so hostile. This affected Greek writings in particular…”

    Translation of bolded text – some Christians were super butt-hurt about losing “muh empire” and their writings reflected it, no surprises there.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @anon-og
  316. @Talha

    ‘…Translation of bolded text – some Christians were super butt-hurt about losing “muh empire” and their writings reflected it, no surprises there.’

    To be fair, there would also be the related but distinct difference between losing one’s position as the sovereign faith and merely trading a more intrusive and oppressive master for one who tended more to benign indifference.

    …that last would apply not merely to the Christians of Iraq, but also many of the Christians of dissenting sects in Egypt and other locations, and of course Jews everywhere — although this last group seems to have taken full advantage of the brief interval in which Persia controlled Palestine in the early seventh century.

    It’d be mildly interesting to look at what information there is on Jewish relations with the Sassanians as opposed to the Byzantines — and in turn, at any difference in the response of Jews in each of the two empires to the Muslim conquests.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  317. @Talha

    Let’s face it: Most UR threads typically go off the rails within the first 50 posts, if not immediately. The commentary following Mr. Unz’s last American Pravda article exceeded a cumbersome 1,000 posts and, not surprisingly, it included a copious sum of off-topic exchanges and contributions rather similar to those we’ve witnessed here. At 900 posts, the page took forever in a day to load.

    So, in the interest of economy, I’ll continue my exchange in the open thread, established expressly for that purpose.

    was-salaam.

  318. @Talha

    [I’m submitting a brief response here. Let me know if you’d rather we carry it over to the open thread.]

    The issue is that it was never well-defined at the time by the Prophet (pbuh) thus it was open to interpretation.

    Yes.

    The implied obligation upon Muslims to adhere to one of four schools of jurisprudence was a latter-generation development. Unquestionably, there are myriad benefits of said adherence, though it’s worth emphasizing that it’s not obligatory.

    Such is the wisdom of God’s allowance.

    was-salaam.

  319. anon-og says:
    @Talha

    Thank you for mentioning the book by Hoyland, I just purchased it as a result of you citing it and it’s fascinating thus far.

    • Replies: @Talha
  320. Talha says:
    @anon-og

    Wow! Glad I could point you in the right direction. Only thing is – I hope you got a good price for it. Since it is a book used in university (and I don’t know if it is still in active print), it can be quite expensive!

    He also has another great read which covers the land of the Arabs and their culture before the advent of Islam. Much more concise but very high yield:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @anon-og
  321. Seraphim says:
    @Colin Wright

    The Rashiduns are back! Zionist shills beware, guard your butts!

  322. @Talha

    There are probably homeless people with cell phones walking around.

    OK Boomer.

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  323. @Homeschooling Mom in NY

    OK Boomer.

    OMG, how dare they being homeless and are using cell phones. We should send the Israel’s SWAT team to mow them down as they are burden on the society. If we are not careful, the next thing we know they will be buying steaks with their food stamps.

  324. anon-og says:
    @Talha

    yeah well the book cost me $40 on Kindle but if its good enough I’ll end up buying the more expensive physical copy to add to my library. This other book you recommend looks interesting too

    btw, .what happened to our old friend Rurik? He doesnt come around anymore?

    • Replies: @Talha
  325. anon-og says:

    The following is a review of another Hoyland book, In God’s Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire. I havent read the book but reading the review, I notice the following :

    “A medieval Islamic tradition recounts that the Prophet Muhammad once told his companions after they returned from a battle: “You have come from the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad—the striving of a servant [of God] against his desires.” The idea of a “Greater Jihad” which involves a spiritual struggle against one’s carnal desires is widespread in contemporary discussions of Islam. Scholars of Islam often make the point that jhd, the Arabic root of jihad, is related generally to “struggle” and not specifically to warfare.

    Some argue that the tradition of the “Greater Jihad” shows that Islam at its origins was a peaceful movement. Karen Armstrong, in her book Muhammad, quotes the tradition of the “Greater Jihad” and insists that fighting was “only a minor part of the whole jihad or struggle.” Armstrong and others often argue that any connection between Islam and violence is only the work of later, medieval Muslims who corrupted its message and of Westerners who caricature Islam.

    The problem with this argument is that the tradition of a “Greater Jihad” appears to be a late fabrication. It is not found in the early tradition. Indeed, of the six valid early collections of traditions (or hadith) recognized by Sunni Islam, none includes a single mention of a “Greater Jihad,” although they treat jihad as holy war at length.”

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/holy-warriors

    What are your thoughts on this being a later development and falsely attributed to the Prophet(pbuh)?

    • Replies: @anon-og
    , @Talha
  326. anon-og says:
    @anon-og

    I should have italicized the whole qoute:
    ““A medieval Islamic tradition recounts that the Prophet Muhammad once told his companions after they returned from a battle: “You have come from the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad—the striving of a servant [of God] against his desires.” The idea of a “Greater Jihad” which involves a spiritual struggle against one’s carnal desires is widespread in contemporary discussions of Islam. Scholars of Islam often make the point that jhd, the Arabic root of jihad, is related generally to “struggle” and not specifically to warfare.

    Some argue that the tradition of the “Greater Jihad” shows that Islam at its origins was a peaceful movement. Karen Armstrong, in her book Muhammad, quotes the tradition of the “Greater Jihad” and insists that fighting was “only a minor part of the whole jihad or struggle.” Armstrong and others often argue that any connection between Islam and violence is only the work of later, medieval Muslims who corrupted its message and of Westerners who caricature Islam.

    The problem with this argument is that the tradition of a “Greater Jihad” appears to be a late fabrication. It is not found in the early tradition. Indeed, of the six valid early collections of traditions (or hadith) recognized by Sunni Islam, none includes a single mention of a “Greater Jihad,” although they treat jihad as holy war at length.”

  327. Talha says:
    @anon-og

    the book cost me $40 on Kindle

    Ah – OK. Well that’s probably a good thing. Does Kindle allow word searches? Because that is highly useful for something like this when you want to look up a particular paragraph or section.

    what happened to our old friend Rurik?

    He’s around, just elsewhere.

    Peace.

  328. anon-og says:

    Something isnt working for me when trying to italicize the whole quote, only the first paragraph gets it.

  329. Talha says:
    @anon-og

    What are your thoughts on this being a later development and falsely attributed to the Prophet(pbuh)?

    Well, there is discussion (as I would expect) whether it is a fabrication or a forgery – that’s a discussion for hadith scholars:
    https://www.livingislam.org/n/dgjh_e.html

    And there are other hadith in very authentic collections that have similar ideas – which is why some scholars might say that a statement is not necessarily authentic in wording, but in meaning due to external evidence:
    “The one who strives in jihad (mujaahid) is he who strives (jaahada) against his lower-self (nafs).” – reported in Tirmidhi

    That hadith is pretty explicit – mentions the tri-letter root (j-h-d) word twice.

    As for the other points, see below.

    [MORE]

    I would agree with this statement to a degree:
    “only a minor part of the whole jihad or struggle.”

    The big quibble I would have is, what exactly do you mean by “minor”; do you mean “not the main portion” or do you mean to infer “a marginal aspect”? That makes a difference.

    The word jihad comes in the Qur’an even in well-known Makkan verses (before it could possibly refer to war) like the below:
    “And those who strive/struggle (jahadoo) in Us. We will certainly guide them to our paths.For verily Allah is with those who do right.” (26:69)

    Jihad is a comprehensive word that includes struggling against oneself and one’s own desires first and foremost and also struggle against evil in the outer society and then the world at large.

    I like some of Ms. Armstrong’s works, but I have a similar criticism as Prof. Hoyland does. It is hard to escape that jihad (in the classical books of jurisprudence) is mostly used in the sense of war. It is also hard to escape that jihad (used in the classical books of spiritual discipline) is mostly used in a sense of struggle against desires and disciplining the ego. So what impression you walk away with, really depends on what you are concentrating on.

    As for the analysis of Prof. Hoyland’s work (a good one, like all of his writings); one cannot divorce the coming of Islam from the environment of Late Antiquity in which it arose. The language of spear and shield was spoken by the big boys in the Age of Empires and that is how you had to talk to them. So it must be recognized and judged in that context. Now, had Islam come about in our age of recognized borders and international treaties and protocols, sure – I could definitely see the criticism.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @anon-og
    , @Colin Wright
  330. @anon-og

    The problem with this argument is that the tradition of a “Greater Jihad” appears to be a late fabrication. It is not found in the early tradition. Indeed, of the six valid early collections of traditions (or hadith) recognized by Sunni Islam, none includes a single mention of a “Greater Jihad,” although they treat jihad as holy war at length.”

    Jihad, Jihad, Jihad, War, War, War. Let us have Jihad (War) against Assad, the heathen Shia. Since, Caliph Baghdadi no where to be found, let us pick a new Caliph to wage Jihad (War) against Assad.

    Hallelujah!

  331. anon-og says:
    @Talha

    thank you, Talha

    • Replies: @Talha
  332. @Talha

    ‘… The language of spear and shield was spoken by the big boys in the Age of Empires and that is how you had to talk to them. So it must be recognized and judged in that context. Now, had Islam come about in our age of recognized borders and international treaties and protocols, sure – I could definitely see the criticism…’

    I tend to view the matter differently.

    Particularly over the last hundred years, Christian societies have divorced church and state. zreligion may occasionally comment critically on bombing cities, etc — but ultimately, it carefully avoids involving itself in the fray. So Americans, for example, can cheerfully consider themselves Christians in their beliefs and even in their day-to-day conduct — but there’s no problem with the state waging even the most brutal warfare. One tends to get a kind of quietism where at best the attitude is if ‘well, it’s certainly regrettable, but it has to be done, so…’

    This is a very recent development. As late as World War One, the attitude was more like ‘praise the Lord and pass the ammunition,’ ‘Gott strafe England,’ etc.

    But now we’ve left all that behind, put statecraft over here and religion over there. That allows our religion to just as perfectly pacifist as we please. ‘Trump’s using drones to kill people in Syria and that’s not Christian? What does Christianity have to do with it?’

    Islam doesn’t have that division — yet. Just about every hopeful movement for regeneration in Muslim society relies on the prescriptions of Islam. So yes, the state is going to express Islam, and since the state inevitably has to be violent…

    I’m not suggesting Muslim societies should separate church and state. In Islam, I’m not even sure that’s possible — and still less am I sure it’s a good idea. My point is merely that criticizing modern Islam for not being exquisitely pacifist is somewhat unfair. Unlike Christian doctrine, Islam does involve itself in the mechanics of government, and that position essentially renders perfect pacifism impractical — and indeed, given the machinations of certain non-Islamic powers, unwise. Groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the Islamic Republic of Iran have to involve themselves in violence. If they didn’t, they would be betraying their followers. Morsi involuntarily demonstrated what pacifism will get a Muslim in today’s world.

  333. @anon-og

    The problem with this argument is that the tradition of a “Greater Jihad” appears to be a late fabrication. It is not found in the early tradition. Indeed, of the six valid early collections of traditions (or hadith) recognized by Sunni Islam, none includes a single mention of a “Greater Jihad,” although they treat jihad as holy war at length.”

    The Hadith for “Greater Jihad” (Struggle Against Oneself) was probably fabricated by Heathen Shias, as these peace-nicks don’t know what real War is!

    • Replies: @anon-og
  334. Talha says:
    @anon-og

    No problem, most welcome. Also, you can now use the “Thanks” button for this kind of thing.

    Peace.

    • Thanks: anon-og
  335. anon-og says:
    @Assad al-islam

    Your sarcasm is not lost on me. And I also do recognize that it is the Shia Muslims who are courageously leading the fight against Zionism.

    • Agree: Assad al-islam
  336. Talha says:
    @Colin Wright

    Probably one of the best and concise analysis of the situation I’ve come across, thanks!

    But now we’ve left all that behind, put statecraft over here and religion over there. That allows our religion to just as perfectly pacifist as we please…So yes, the state is going to express Islam, and since the state inevitably has to be violent…

    Yup – you may enjoy this video (below MORE tag) that talks about this to a degree.

    Unlike Christian doctrine, Islam does involve itself in the mechanics of government, and that position essentially renders perfect pacifism impractical

    “Unlike Christian doctrine” of the modern era (as you alluded to with ‘particularly over the last hundred years’ and ‘this is a very recent development’). I agree, Christianity certainly had zero problems involving itself in the mechanics of government for the lion’s share of its existence. Holy Roman Emperors and what not. You had men even late like Grotius trying to come to terms with this in the backdrop of the Thirty Years War – which I think was really the death knell for that Christianity/government mix. To be perfectly honest, had Muslims gone through a religious-based, wide-reaching, sanguinary war of that magnitude, we might have also started rethinking the relationship between religion and politics/government.

    Morsi involuntarily demonstrated what pacifism will get a Muslim in today’s world.

    Yup.

    Peace.

    [MORE]

    • Thanks: Colin Wright
  337. anon-og says:
    @Colin Wright

    Some say that religion is either all or it is nothing and maybe ‘praise the Lord and pass the ammunition’ was already a sign of the decadence to come.

  338. @Colin Wright

    Islam doesn’t have that division — yet. Just about every hopeful movement for regeneration in Muslim society relies on the prescriptions of Islam. So yes, the state is going to express Islam, and since the state inevitably has to be violent…

    I’m not suggesting Muslim societies should separate church and state. In Islam, I’m not even sure that’s possible —

    Groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the Islamic Republic of Iran have to involve themselves in violence.

    Hi Colin,

    Do you consider defending oneself against aggression is violence? In Shia Islam there is a separation of Church and State. Tho only two grandsons of the Prophet gave their life for it. See https://www.al-islam.org/understanding-karbala-allamah-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/how-imam-hasan-and-imam-husayn-saved-islam.

    When Saddam attacked Iran, I didn’t see Sayyid Ruhollah Khomeini issue a fatwa saying to do Jihad (War) in the name of God against Saddam. Though Saddam and his ulemas did. I might be wrong, but I doubt it. You can quote me the fatwa if you find it. Neither I saw a fatwa from Sayyid Ayatollah Sistani fighting Jihad (War) in the name of God against USA.

    Who was wrong between Iraq and Iran war? Whose side God was on? Does God gets involved in petty fights of human beings?

    Jihad for War in the name of the Religion (God), whether that Jihad is offensive or defensive is not allowed in Shia Islam. However, one can always fight against aggression, but this has nothing to do with God.

    The Prophet always defended himself and Islam, he defended Islam against aggression.

  339. @Assad al-islam

    [Too much off-topic material. Stay on the topic if you want your comments published.]

  340. @Assad al-islam

    ‘… However, one can always fight against aggression, but this has nothing to do with God.’

    Here, I have to note that everyone has been merely ‘fighting against aggression’ for at least the last two hundred years. Hitler, Mussolini, Japan — they all made sure they had their pretexts. I imagine even Napoleon always took care to explain he was only reluctantly responding to intolerable provocation.

    When was the last time someone frankly and openly ate their neighbor because he looked like he would taste good?

    We all claim to be defending ourselves — and usually genuinely believe it. For example, at the moment, one can watch with morbid fascination as Israel and its giant American puppet methodically herd Iran into a smaller and smaller corner — obviously anticipating that at some point she will feel compelled to strike back against her tormentors.

    …and yet I know for a depressing certainty that when Iran does strike back, we will perceive our massive and bloody ‘retaliation’ as ‘fighting against aggression.’

    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  341. ‘‘… However, one can always fight against aggression, but this has nothing to do with God.’ ‘

    Here, I have to note that everyone has been merely ‘fighting against aggression’ for at least the last two hundred years…’

    The game actually goes back further than that. Tamerlane used to always pose as a pious Muslim, and when — reluctantly — he had been forced to take up arms against yet another miscreant, he’d win, and would march into his enemy’s capital, and say that now that he’d won, he’d be the nice guy.

    …then he’d let his troops swagger around, and take food and women as they saw fit, until some shopkeepers or whatever couldn’t take any more, and ‘attacked’ Tamerlane’s poor, innocent soldiers.

    Will they never learn? Sigh…time for another pyramid of skulls. I hate doing this, but…

    Julius Caesar could honestly say, ‘I came, I saw, I conquered’ — but at some point between now and then, it became necessary to be ‘fighting against aggression’ or some such.

    We never just attack our neighbor. No sir.

  342. @Colin Wright

    Thank you for writing this.

    If one acknowledges that God guides man, then certainly He will guide Him in matters of war, which include determining the necessity of it, the manner in which it should be fought, and provisions for a peaceful settlement to conflict. There is a consistent logic to such conviction.

    This is not to say that separation of church and state necessarily yields bad results, but rather, the dynamic is more vulnerable to a subjective, unpredictable application of ethics, if any.

    • Agree: anon-og
    • Replies: @AnonStarter
  343. @Colin Wright

    We all claim to be defending ourselves — and usually genuinely believe it.

    No better case in point: Israeli Defense Forces.

  344. @AnonStarter

    Edit: “… then certainly He will guide Him him …”

  345. @anon-og

    I have seen Israel and Iran as two fingers of the same hand for a long time.
    The Iran v America saga is one big ongoing Psy-Op.

    MALAYSIA MUSLIM SUMMIT – REMEMBERING IRAN SHAKING HANDS WITH JACK STRAW – ROTHSCHILD’S LACKEY.
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/3Fwwuy6KrPgr/

    • Replies: @anon-og
    , @Fran Taubman
  346. anon-og says:
    @BDS Always

    All that may be true. As an Afghan, many from my country hate Iran for meddling in our affairs. But the fact remains that one of the major obstacles to Greater Israel is Iran and their supported proxies including Hezbollah.

  347. Seraphim says:
    @Colin Wright

    Now they speak the language of machine guns. They nevertheless kept the knives. You can’t behead with machine guns.

  348. I’ve been following the research of maverick scientist named Dr. Rupert Sheldrake from England. Rupert explores things denigrated by mainstream science like can learned skills,behaviour,etc..(other than genetics) also play a part in passing this on to offspring. His research shows YES. Can Rupert’s morphic resonance theory,in part,explain how Jews have become dominant in various fields ? And maybe the opposite happens when for generations one group of people have been excessively marginalized, decimated through warfare and disease,separated from one another. In other words, the chain of knowledge,skill,is discontinued for too many generations among a particular group that this morphic resonance has a difficult time of latching-on to future offspring.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZklRSn92ek4

  349. @BDS Always

    Hey BDS,

    I checked out this Brendon O’Connell. Not a happy camper, he seems to be cracking up. He has had with the Jew Hatred power people. No one seems to be helping him seek asylum. He likes the Karaiites lol,

  350. ‘…He has had with the Jew Hatred power people…’

    Here we are, all about to die of o’ de Corona Virus, and all you can do is keep going on with your Jewish issues.

    Honestly, Fran.

  351. Kali says:

    Update on the results of the election.

    Enjoy!! 🙂

    https://mondoweiss.net/2020/03/trumps-interference-in-israeli-election-backfired-leaving-netanyahu-and-deal-of-century-at-risk/

    Extract:

    The big theme on the center left in Israel now is, We need to get past Netanyahu for Israel to move forward, we have the numbers narrowly. But that means working with the newly powerful Joint List. As Ofer Shelah of Blue-White said last week, It is the “state of Israel against the state of Netanyahu.”

    “Netanyahu’s statement yesterday that he won the election because the Joint Arab List doesn’t count is his official declaration of war on the Jewish and democratic state of Israel,” Shelach interpreted.

    Even the Washington Post writes (per Jewish Insider) of “the curdling of Mr. Netanyahu’s ‘victory’” in last week’s election. While J Street is warning that Netanyahu’s statement alienates Americans, including Jews. Dylan Williams writes:

    It’s hard to overstate the damage this kind of racist rhetoric has on perceptions of Israel among a huge range of Americans, especially young people, minority communities and the great majority of US Jews from all backgrounds whose values are diametrically opposed to such bigotry

    And for more good news check out Whitney Webbs’ latest article re’ cancellation of planned purchase of Iron Dome by US military.

    Happy Friday folks! 🙂

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  352. @anon-og

    Your sarcasm is not lost on me. And I also do recognize that it is the Shia Muslims who are courageously leading the fight against Zionism.

    Isn’t the Greater Jihad, meaning Jihad al-Nafs (Struggle against Oneself) one of the Pillars/Practices of Islam? See complete Chapter 114 of Quran for Jihad al-Nafs.

    Five pillars and ten practices, where performing Salat (Praying)is the first practice and Jihad al-Nafs being the sixth practice!

    The recurring theme in the Quran is man is an oppressor. God tells Adam in the Quran, not to approach the tree lest you become an oppressor. The tree didn’t have any significance besides God’s Command to Adam. The Shia Muslims are not against Zionism, they are against their oppression and they being tyrant towards the Palestinians people. It is the duty of any moral person.

  353. The Shia Muslims are not against Zionism, they are against their oppression and they being tyrant towards the Palestinians people. It is the duty of any moral person.

    It is the Palestinian leadership Hamas and the Palestinian Authority that are the tyrants not the Israelis. This is no secret in the Arab world and you know this living in Oman.
    Hamas dictates life in Gaza and their Jihad against the Jews, their violence against Israeli citizens with their bombs and arson fires on the border imprisons their population. They are not allowed to travel to Israel or Egypt because of the violence.

    Jihadist are anarchist and only want an Islamic caliphate. The leaders of Hamas and Fatah are billionaires who steel from their people. They are not interested in peace the would loose their incomes. Killing Jews is a high paying job.

    Fatah and Abbas refuse to sign a deal without the right of return and declaring the sovereignty of Israel as a Jewish state. They too are keeping their populations hostage from signing deals with the Israelis. Most of the Palestinians want economic development and infrastructure, and are willing to negotiate it is the leadership that is corrupt.

    The Arab Muslim population from the 1948 wanted to defeat Israel. They have negotiated based on the idea that eventually they would win the whole enchilada. That was their plan. They lost.

    They failed and have been defeated they must accept the terms offered which are generous. They will be granted autonomy and the right to govern themselves, infrastructure, economic development, which will advance their society and the lives of their children/

    The only two state solution is Jordan, which was a part of the original mandate of Palestine. Hamas stop violence. No Israeli wants to oppress the Palestinians. Israel is a small country and wants to live in peace, with prosperous neighbors. That is in the interest of everyone.
    The condition of Gaza is caused by Hamas not Israel.

    This is a religious battle. Shia Islam does not recognize the Jewish holiness of Israel and Jerusalem.
    They call for all Jews to leave.

    • Troll: SolontoCroesus
    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Colin Wright
    , @Ark
  354. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Fatah and Abbas refuse to sign a deal without the right of return and declaring the sovereignty of Israel as a Jewish state.

    So, Fran. Since you’re so keen on Israel having the right of being recognized by all other countries as a Jewish state, for consistency do you think Germany had the same right in the 1930s to be recognized as a German state?

    • Agree: Assad al-islam
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  355. @geokat62

    Not sure what or why you are asking. But if the subject is Germany and the date 1930 sounds like a trick question. Israel is a Jewish however the third largest voting party in the Knesset is that Arab party. Stop thinking everything is so black and white (no pun). Israel is not a bad place to live for any religion.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Colin Wright
  356. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Not sure what or why you are asking.

    No problem, Fran. Let me try a different approach. Do you agree with Sarah Silverman’s views on nationalism?

    Sarah Silverman on Nationalism

  357. This is how I feel about Nationalism. Geo. Written by a nice Jewish guy.

    Please stop playing games with me.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  358. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    This is how I feel about Nationalism. Geo.

    Lol. Nice try, Fran.

    All joking aside, I think your views of nationalism align quite well with those of Sarah Silverman’s.

    Here’s how Sarah put things:

    Then I calmly walked to my car and I got inside and I called my sister, Suzy, to tell her what happened. Now, maybe you’re thinking… “what do you mean what happened? Nothing happened. Your boyfriend put an American flag up at his own house.” No, you’re totally right. I had no idea why I was freaking out. I just… I had this very visceral reaction… and my sister, who knows shit because she’s a rabbi in Israel, explained to me. She was like “dude, nationalism is innately terrifying for Jews. Think about it. Flags, marching, blind allegiance. These things tend to ring a bell for us.”

    Right. Of course. Duh.

    While she feels frightened by American nationalism, Sarah feels very comfortable with Jewish nationalism… according to the Jerusalem Post:

    Sarah Silverman, hilarious American comedian and actor, has a strong connection to Israel. She often speaks about her sister’s family that lives in Jerusalem and her support for Israel. She was vocal during last March’s election in support of the left-wing Meretz party, tweeting, “ISRAEL! If you are a Meretz supporter you NEED to VOTE MARCH 17. Every vote counts. If you don’t vote, you can’t complain.”

    https://m.jpost.com/Not-Just-News/Which-celebs-are-proanti-Israel-the-Complete-Guide-434404

  359. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… Israel is not a bad place to live for any religion.’

    Everybody enjoys being spit on, right, Fran?

  360. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… They failed and have been defeated they must accept the terms offered which are generous…’

    You do come up with some good lines, Fran. Thanks for recharging my batteries, I guess.

    • LOL: Assad al-islam
  361. @Kali

    Update on the results of the election.

    Enjoy!!

    Hi Kali Matta, 🙂

    Excellent News, it appears Netanyahu is out.

    Rivlin to tap Gantz to form next government, his office says

    https://www.ynetnews.com/article/Hk0YeAoS8

    Lately, all the air is out of Netanyahu and he looks very, very scared!

    Have a Blessed Sunday!

    • Thanks: Kali
  362. Ark says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The blatant hypocrisy of pulling a “might makes right” argument from a state that owes it’s very existence to Western liberal sensibilities and whose entire foreign policy is subsidized by the US is absolutely nauseating.

    • Agree: Kali, Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  363. @Ark

    What no Hitler quote? What are Western liberal sensibilities?
    Another tin horn Jew hater looking everywhere for the right argument. Until you can defeat Israel militarily Israel is here to stay. Hitler would agree.
    I guess those Arab states who’s money comes from oil wealth that we guzzle up are such exceptional and wonderful countries, who people could not turn the lights out never mind refine their oil without American technology.
    Israel is light years ahead of any country in that region. You are such a tin horn Jew hater it is hard to not laugh at your stupid posts. Some Jew haters are more stupid then others, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the dumbest. you are a plus 20.

    • Disagree: Assad al-islam
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Ark
  364. @Fran Taubman

    ‘…Until you can defeat Israel militarily Israel is here to stay…’

    That’s why apartheid South Africa is still riding high, wide, and handsome. No one could defeat them militarily.

    • Agree: Assad al-islam
  365. Some Jew haters are more stupid then others, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the dumbest. you are a plus 20.

    Fran, I believe that you are referring to Netanyahu. With 29 standing ovations, the balloon is full of Hot Air. Then comes Trump with all his empty gestures to Netanyahu the balloon kept on becoming bigger and bigger with Hot Air.

    Netanyahu seems very scared as all that Hot Air is now deflated from him. Fake coronavirus, passenger planes being converted to cargo planes, barrel of Oil being less than $25 and Iran being on the borders of Israel, Netanyahu is headed to breakdown. Add to it, the 3 criminal cases againt him.

    Gilad Atzmon Shalomo the gatekeeper is wrong that Netanyahu won the election. Netanyahu is a born loser!

  366. @Assad al-islam

    What about all the other losers leaders. When is Abbas going to resign? Kalid Mashall?
    Hamas dictators?
    All the other dictators. Assad, King Hussein. etc. a total bunch of losers. Why look at just Israel for failed leadership. If the Arabs had better leaders who behaved with respect to their people we would not need Netanyahu. Why are you so concerned with him?
    If Iran stays in Syria, Netanyahu will keep on wining. The cause and affect.
    No leader lives or rules in a vacuum, they are a product of the enemies surrounding them. Israelis view Netanyahu as a warrior that keeps Israel safe, no one in Israel wants a mushy leader to give in to the Arabs.

  367. @Assad al-islam

    ‘Gilad Atzmon Shalomo the gatekeeper is wrong that Netanyahu won the election. Netanyahu is a born loser!’

    What makes you think anything will change if Netanyahu is replaced?

    Here’s one interesting bet. I say the Jews somehow form a coalition that excludes the Palestinians from any share in government. You need to understand what Israel is about. There’s the window dressing — and then there’s what the state actually is. It’s a democracy like I’m a ballerina.

  368. There’s the window dressing — and then there’s what the state actually is. It’s a democracy like I’m a ballerina.

    Careful, Colin Wright.
    We live in upside down world where:

    https://www.unz.com/announcement/comments-complaints-and-suggestions/?showcomments#comment-3523359

    Fran Taubman to Ron Unz,
    October 25, 2019
    @Ron Unz
    I contribute a lot to this site in the way of intellectual heft, . . .
    to add so much to his content to this site, and be so unrecognized as a contributor, is just a bridge to far with UR earning a profit off of me.

    While you work thru your morning ballet drills, Colin, I work on polishing my Gold Satr

    • LOL: Assad al-islam
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  369. geokat62 says:

    A short (under 5 min) video by filmmaker Porter Speakman Jr., Israeli historian Ilan Pappe on the ethnic cleansing of Palestine

  370. @Colin Wright

    What makes you think anything will change if Netanyahu is replaced?

    No, it will not change anything!

    But Netanyahu is the most manipulable, with the 29 standing ovations he is full of Hot Air. They all have drank the Kool-Aid, thinking they are the most intelligent with very, very high IQ, they are better than everyone else, they all walk on the water and so forth. AIPAC which used to work under the shadow of night, is out open claiming to USA public that they own USA and all their politicians/military. They they are all full of Hot Air and been given enough rope to hang themselves. They all are very easily manipulated. The plan was laid after the murder of John Kennedy, and meticulously perfected by George H. W. Bush and his nearest confidant.

    If you have followed my posts, you would know that I believe USA is the enemy of Israel and not a friend of Israel. Under the smoke screen of constant wars, USA, Russia, Iran and KSA are all in cahoots. I have been saying this when Putin walked in and took Crimea. At that time, I wrote that Obama and Putin are in cahoots and Obama gave Crimea to Putin on a Silver Platter. People though me being an Ahab the Arab, I don’t know what “cahoots” meant.

    You have to give credit to the rest of US, neither we are all dumb nor we are all sell outs. Maybe, couple of USA politicians but not the majority; and of course not the USA armed forces. Same with Russia, Iran and KSA. Forget the Muslims on this forum as they are not Arabs nor they live in the heart of Middle East. Islam has never been so united. The Shia Crescent with the nods of Sunni State has become very powerful. And, in the fog of Syria’s civil war, Iran is now at the borders of Israel, where Israel is not at the border of Iran. Most of Assad military forces are Sunni Muslims. ISIS and Caliph Baghdadi have been godsend, and since then things have never been so great for Islam. All the young generation are questioning the ugly face presented by ISIS.

    Give credit to USA congress, that all those in the chamber who gave 29 standing ovations are not all fools nor they all are sell out to the country they represent.

    Give yourself some credit too!

  371. @Colin Wright

    What makes you think anything will change if Netanyahu is replaced?

    The Coronavirus is social experiment to see how can they control the world. Just like 9/11 they took control of USA. They had enough social experience with viruses, especially in 2009 the virus called, “A(H1N1)pdm09 virus”, which country now will be able to say that we will take the risk and do nothing. After 9/11 every American was bought by Bush Administration with a check in the mail. Now, there is a proposal from the White House giving Americans checks to curb Coronavirus economic impact.

    Now, let us look what condition the State of Isreal has been lately! Every year they are becoming more and more fanatic. The Oslo agreement was hijacked by USA (Bill Clinton) and then torpedoed. Rabin was murdered. Sharon walks in and create mayhem which leads to Intifada, then he spend years in coma suffering for his sins. Israel was given a black eye in 2006 by Hezbollah. Then Hamas does the same in 2004. Isreal has no functioning government for almost a year. They had three elections so far with no stable government and most probably they will be heading towards the fourth election.

    The drums of war are getting louder and louder. Most probably, Netanyahu was told that under the fog of Coronavirus, Iran will be attacked. Most passenger planes are being converted to cargo planes, to ensure enough supply of food and goods. Both KSA and Russia together have ensured that Oil is less than $25, so that there will be massive supply of cheap Oil.

    satan plans and God Plans, and God is the best of Planner!

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  372. @SolontoCroesus

    I am flattered by the content attention of you and Colin. It must be attributed to my wit and brilliance.
    All of the threads on this site that you could be engaged in and you choose me!!!
    What a compliment. I must keep your minds buzzing with insecurity as the content of my posts overwhelms you. I have never seen such insecurity, where you have had to rely on sock puppetry with #347 and #178 to mask your true insecurity to attack me and my family personally.

    • LOL: Colin Wright
  373. @Assad al-islam

    But Netanyahu is the most manipulable, with the 29 standing ovations he is full of Hot Air. They all have drank the Kool-Aid, thinking they are the most intelligent with very, very high IQ, they are better than everyone else, they all walk on the water and so forth. AIPAC which used to work under the shadow of night, is out open claiming to USA public that they own USA and all their politicians/military. They they are all full of Hot Air and been given enough rope to hang themselves. They all are very easily manipulated. The plan was laid after the murder of John Kennedy, and meticulously perfected by George H. W. Bush and his nearest confidant.

    The fact that you choose to wind all of this up into some kind of planned fantasy, shows that you are not thinking with your brain only your emotions. No one force on the planet could execute universal plans, time and random forces in the to volatile for anyone to change the destiny of natural and supernatural forces. Life is random. If you do not understand that you will be left in some far off place to wonder around like a zombie.

    There is no conspiracy involving Israel or any other country with the virus or anything else going on.Arab Muslims need to get their own houses in order, educate their populations and make them forces of good in the world. They need to contribute towards a positive outcome. Conspiracy theories only advance the backwardness of the Arab populations and produce a negative net loss.

    Look to yourselves to solve your problems, stop scape goat with the Jews. Jews want to live in peace with their Muslim cousins. That is all they want. If we all work together Arabia could be come a united super power and advance Islam and Judaism to world peace and prosperity for all of the people living there, with tourism and technology. What good is Syria blown to bits to anyone?

    Are you saying that the Shia crescent is going to go to war with Israel? That would be really really stupid.

    • LOL: Assad al-islam
    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Assad al-islam
  374. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Jews want to live in peace with their Muslim cousins. That is all they want.

    Excerpt from, Israel Backs Limited Strike Against Syria:

    For Jerusalem, the status quo, horrific as it may be from a humanitarian perspective, seems preferable to either a victory by Mr. Assad’s government and his Iranian backers or a strengthening of rebel groups, increasingly dominated by Sunni jihadis.

    “This is a playoff situation in which you need both teams to lose, but at least you don’t want one to win — we’ll settle for a tie,” said Alon Pinkas, a former Israeli consul general in New York. “Let them both bleed, hemorrhage to death: that’s the strategic thinking here. As long as this lingers, there’s no real threat from Syria.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/world/middleeast/israel-backs-limited-strike-against-syria.html?pagewanted=all

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  375. Are you saying that the Shia crescent is going to go to war with Israel? That would be really really stupid.

    No, USA and Russia together are going to war with Israel. Be a good reader, any monkey can write, but being a good reader is very, very difficult.

    Shalom!

  376. @geokat62

    The Iron Wall by Ze’ev Jabotinsky
    Original in Russian, Razsviet, 4.11.1923
    Colonisation of Palestine
    Agreement with Arabs Impossible at present Zionism Must Go Forward
    http://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf

    Politically, my attitude [to the Arabs in Palestine] is determined . . . First of all, [by the principle that] I consider it utterly impossible to eject the Arabs from Palestine. There will always be two nations in Palestine – which is good enough for me, provided the Jews become the majority. . . .

    I am prepared to take an oath binding ourselves and our descendants that we shall never do anything contrary to the principle of equal rights, and that we shall never try to eject anyone. This seems to me a fairly peaceful credo.

    But [BUT BUT] it is quite another question whether it is always possible to realise a peaceful aim by peaceful means. For the answer to this question does not depend on our attitude to the Arabs; but entirely on the attitude of the Arabs to us and to Zionism.

    Voluntary Agreement Not Possible.
    There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting “Palestine” from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.

    in other words, peace between colonized Palestinians and invading Zionists is not possible, was never envisioned as possible, is never contemplated to be possible.

    nb no holohoax in 1923

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  377. @Fran Taubman

    Are you saying that the Shia crescent is going to go to war with Israel? That would be really really stupid.

    As a Muslim I don’t consider Jews to be the Tribe of Satan and that their Father is a Snake. The Bolshevik Revolution, WWI, Holodomor and WWII have claimed more than 310 million Christian’s life. So, who can blame the Christians, claiming that Jews are the Tribe of Satan.

    The problem lies Jews think the Arabs, the Iranians, the Muslims are retarded, brainless bunch!

    Blessed be ha Shem! (Blessed be the Name)!

  378. @Assad al-islam

    The Bolshevik Revolution, WWI, Holodomor and WWII have claimed more than 310 million Christian’s life. S

    There were Jews involved but the leaders including Stalin were of Christian background. There were more Christians then Jews. To blame these atrocity on the Jews is insane. None of the Bolshevik leaders were Jewish even if you look thru a microscope at their DNA.

    • Replies: @Poco
    , @Poco
  379. @Assad al-islam

    The problem lies Jews think the Arabs, the Iranians, the Muslims are retarded, brainless bunch!

    Well can you blame them: People that think the below are retarded and brainless. A complete waste of time and energy that solves nothing. This is just ludicrous to think this. Why bother to continue to converse if you think that Jews are using the Cornova virus as a social experiment. I mean what is the point?

    The Coronavirus is social experiment to see how can they control the world. Just like 9/11 they took control of USA. They had enough social experience with viruses, especially in 2009 the virus called, “A(H1N1)pdm09 virus”, which country now will be able to say that we will take the risk and do nothing. After 9/11 every American was bought by Bush Administration with a check in the mail. Now, there is a proposal from the White House giving Americans checks to curb Coronavirus economic impact.

  380. Why bother to continue to converse if you think that Jews are using the Cornova virus as a social experiment. I mean what is the point?

    I don’t believe that 9/11 was committed by Jews nor the Coronavirus for social experiments. For that you have to look at Uncle Sam

    Look at the big picture. Uncle Sam is in cahoots with Russia and Muslims!

    Why you think Osama bin Laden took the credit for 9/11.

  381. A strange notion has found purchase in progressive circles. It holds that nominally marginalized and oppressed groups, most notably Muslims and African Americans, cannot themselves espouse hateful views. According to this thinking, white people maintain a monopoly on hate, and every expression of hate by someone who is nonwhite is linked to some form of white or Western influence, whether colonialist, capitalist, or Christian.

    This idea is also frequently embraced by those doing the hating. Consider the strain of anti-Semitism endemic to Palestinian society, where government-run television, media, textbooks, and mosques encourage violence against Jews, praise Hitler, characterize Jews as “apes and pigs,” and deny the Holocaust. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah movement, widely taken to be the most moderate wing of Palestinian politics and the best chance for a partner in peace with Israel, recently released a video claiming that Jews “led the project to enslave humanity” and that Jewish behavior is responsible for anti-Semitism.

    To many on the hard left, this moral inversion fits comfortably with Marxist theories about class struggle and power. When a class of people is deemed to lack power, their misdeeds are recast as noble efforts to obtain that power—even when those misdeeds might include terrorist acts against innocent civilians.

    Never mind that the historical record is wholly at odds with Fatah’s explanation for Jew-hatred. Islamic anti-Semitism has been a fundamental part of Middle East culture for more than a millennium. Long before capitalism and Western colonialism, Jews were treated as second-class citizens, or “dhimmis,” under Islamic law, and they endured frequent pogroms, humiliation, and brutal oppression. Thus, denying the historical record is a necessity if one is set on absolving the wicked.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Truth3
    , @Truth3
  382. @Assad al-islam

    Absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

  383. @Fran Taubman

    ‘A strange notion has found purchase in progressive circles. It holds that nominally marginalized and oppressed groups…’

    Oh please, Fran. You copied that from somewhere. It’s perfectly obvious.

    • Agree: Kali
    • Replies: @geokat62
  384. @Fran Taubman

    ‘… It must be attributed to my wit and brilliance…I must keep your minds buzzing with insecurity as the content of my posts overwhelms you…’

    Those really are lines to to save and treasure, Fran.

    I do believe you’ve topped ‘intellectual heft.’

    • Agree: Fran Taubman
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  385. geokat62 says:
    @Colin Wright

    Oh please, Fran. You copied that from somewhere. It’s perfectly obvious.

    You’re bang on, Colin. Our little Franny is a plagiarist! She neglected to give credit to Karys Rhea and Keren Toledano, the two authors of the Commentary article, Letting Anti-Semites Be Their Guide:

    A strange notion has found purchase in progressive circles. It holds that nominally marginalized and oppressed groups, most notably Muslims and African Americans, cannot themselves espouse hateful views. According to this thinking, white people maintain a monopoly on hate, and every expression of hate by someone who is nonwhite is linked to some form of white or Western influence, whether colonialist, capitalist, or Christian.

    This idea is also frequently embraced by those doing the hating. Consider the strain of anti-Semitism endemic to Palestinian society, where government-run television, media, textbooks, and mosques encourage violence against Jews, praise Hitler, characterize Jews as “apes and pigs,” and deny the Holocaust. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah movement, widely taken to be the most moderate wing of Palestinian politics and the best chance for a partner in peace with Israel, recently released a video claiming that Jews “led the project to enslave humanity” and that Jewish behavior is responsible for anti-Semitism.

    To many on the hard left, this moral inversion fits comfortably with Marxist theories about class struggle and power. When a class of people is deemed to lack power, their misdeeds are recast as noble efforts to obtain that power—even when those misdeeds might include terrorist acts against innocent civilians.

    Never mind that the historical record is wholly at odds with Fatah’s explanation for Jew-hatred. Islamic anti-Semitism has been a fundamental part of Middle East culture for more than a millennium. Long before capitalism and Western colonialism, Jews were treated as second-class citizens, or “dhimmis,” under Islamic law, and they endured frequent pogroms, humiliation, and brutal oppression. Thus, denying the historical record is a necessity if one is set on absolving the wicked…

    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/karysrheakerentoledano/progressive-jews-let-jew-haters-off-the-hook/

    Naughty, naughty, Fran!

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @anon
  386. @geokat62

    ‘You’re bang on, Colin. Our little Franny is a plagiarist! ‘

    Fran really is an appalling mediocrity…and witness Aaron! I genuinely believe that the more unimpressive a Jew is morally and intellectually, the more likely he will turn out to be an ardent Zionist.

    There’s the old expression ‘patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.’ For Jews, it does seem that Zionism disproportionately becomes a palliative for those insecure about their merits as individuals. Consider such specimens as Jonathan Pollard or Jeffrey Epstein — or our own dear Fran.

    • Replies: @anon
  387. anon[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    You’re bang on, Colin. Our little Franny is a plagiarist! She neglected to give credit to Karys Rhea and Keren Toledano, the two authors of the Commentary article, Letting Anti-Semites Be Their Guide:

    🤣🤣🤣

    Yeah, because what those two white/jew nationalist cunts wrote was sooooooo original and not just more deranged white/jew nationalist garbage straight out of the How to Defend Muh Insupportable Ethnic Nationalism playbook.

  388. anon[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    There’s the old expression ‘patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.’

    Ethnic nationalism isn’t “patriotism”.

  389. @Assad al-islam

    Assad let me try and take your mind off of conspiracies. Is music Haram Assad? In the West we rely a lot on music and art to take our minds off of things (like conpiracies). Western culture is so different then the Islamic world, thru art and music we create beauty and harmony that transforms and refines our senses. Below is a painting by the George Seurat called A Sunday on La Grand Island of Jatte. painted in 1884. It is a pointillist painting(when you stand up close to the painting it looks like dots. When you stand back the painting comes in focus.

    Below the painting is an opening scene from a musical play called Sunday in the Park with Georgeabout the creation of the painting and the life of Seurat. He died at the age of 37. The images in the painting turn into real life characters, and we get to see their lives. The play is really about how art captures life in a moment in time.

    In the opening scene the Seurat composes the people into the actual painting. At the end a scrim of the painting comes down over the recreation. It gives me goosebumps every time I see it.

    I hope you enjoy it and what I am trying to share with you. Is this Haram Assad? Is this play Haram? Maybe that is what separates us. Why you think of conspiracies and I think about George Seurat and his painting. We are sooo different. I am trying to find another way to communicate.

    The painting is a freeze frame of life in 1884.

    People strolling through the trees
    Of a small suburban park
    On an island in the river
    On and ordinary Sunday
    Sunday
    Sunday

    A_Sunday_on_La_Grande_Jatte,_Georges_Seurat,_1884

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  390. Truth3 says:
    @Assad al-islam

    I don’t believe that 9/11 was committed by Jews…

    That’s OK.

    You will know the Truth in the next world.

    They already know the Truth there.

    Here’s a clue… It’s the Jews stupid.

    Not likely much more than 72 Jews there in Heaven when you get there… You can argue that Atzmon, Unz, St. Peter and 10 other Apostles… will be there. You’re right. They will be. Only they won’t be Jews. They stopped being Jews, and became Humans, before they left this Vale of Tears and Injustices.

    No 72 Virgins waiting for you there either, by the way.

    • LOL: Assad al-islam
    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  391. @Fran Taubman

    Assad let me try and take your mind off of conspiracies. Is music Haram Assad?

    I don’t think Fran that you know anything about me. In my 7 bedroom house, with three living rooms, I have massive giant speakers in every room. My investment in HiFi equipment is probably close ton $200,00. I am very heavily involved in Rock Music.

    I am an open book. My wife is a WASP from Arkansas and I spend close to 15 years in USA. We have been married now for almost 48 years, and this gives you my age. USA women make best wives! In the Muslim’s forum, there used to be JAP. I am sure you know what it means. She mentioned Hanging Judge in one of her post and I replied that I have been to Old Town. I never said on this forum that I am from Arkansas, but she exactly knew what I meant. You can Google both Hanging Judge and Old Town. Anyhow the next time we went to USA, we met in Fort Smith, her with her family and my families getting together. Everyone taught I am crazy to meet her as we met at an Islamic forum. We met and she took us all out to lunch in a very fancy restaurant.

    After the lunch, she offered to keep our children, while my wife and I go to Old Town for fun. Everyone taught I was crazy to leave my children alone with her. In Old Town they a basket, you put your money in the basket and lower it down. You then lift the basket with ice cold beer in jars and any change due to you. We spend lots of time together with JAP and her family and we are good family friends. Her daughter married in Israel and made Aliyah.

    We Muslims are taught that all humans and religions are equal. It is from the same Creator, who don’t discriminate against His creation. No one has exclusive rights on Him, no one owns Him and He has no name, if He did then He will belong to that culture/religion. “I am, I am”! Fran, there is some very, very good news and it appears that Netanyahu will be removed in a straight jacket;

    See https://www.timesofisrael.com/president-to-speaker-a-likud-mk-reopen-knesset-avoid-harm-to-democracy/

    No Arabs, Iranians and/or Muslims want wars with Isreal. In fact, it is the Muslims who saved Jews in Spanish Inquisitions! Right Fran?

    We are peace loving and many a times Rabin had visited Oman, before he was shot. And, lately both Netanyahu and Sara visited Oman too!

    Enjoy War Pigs

    Blessed be the Name! (Blessed be ha Shem!)

    Mohamed

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  392. @Truth3

    LOL! Do you take scripture literally. BTW, no 72 virgins are mentioned in the Quran. There are in cooked false Hadiths.

    78:31, 78:32, 78:33: Lo! for the duteous is achievement, Gardens enclosed and vineyards, And voluptuous women of equal age;

    God is JUST, and whoever will do good will reap goodness. And, He is Merciful, so He didn’t create us all to be in Hell!

  393. Truth3 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Jews “led the project to enslave humanity”…

    Look around Palestine bitch. If those people aren’t enslaved by Jews the word has no meaning.

    I’ll deal with what Jooz dooz to the rest of the planet when you admit what Jooz dooz to Palestinians 8 million times a day.

  394. @Assad al-islam

    Not a fan of heavy metal. Hate Black Sabbath, you are correct I know nothing about you, and I guessed wrong I thought you were a robbed Suni, who traveled down the strict Arab path of no music.
    Glad to know that you are open to that.

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  395. @SolontoCroesus

    I saw your post on PG’s page about the Jews transferring the Corona virus as a weapon. You mentioned the Dier Yassin massacre as proof that the Jewish character could possibly create and spread a virus deliberately to the harm innocent people. DELIBERATELY.

    So what do you think of China SC? Do you know about the Cultural Revolution and Mao Zedong, where 1.5 million Chinese brutally lost their lives following torture? So how about the Chinese? Could they do it? How about by accident?

    Do you know how this virus spread? It came from a wet market in China where live animals are kept in contact with dead animals. Chinese eat insects, bats, dogs etc. Protein is hard to find in China. So some bat shit came in contact with salable food along with the bats.

    Lets look at the Jewish kosher laws. Kosher laws state that you can only eat animals that have a plant based diet. You can not eat an animal that is a carnivore. Not Kosher.Dogs and bats are not kosher. Looks like we Jews are pretty refined and would be the last people on the planet to consume bats or animals who might consume bat shit or other animals as part of their diet.

    So refined are the kosher laws that there is separation for eating dead animals at the same time as eating products from live animals. It is a very refined law and shows care and humanity towards animals.The kosher laws state you cannot boil the kid in the mothers milk. Think about that. Out of respect for the animal there is a law forbidding eating live animals milk with a dead animals meat.

    When are you ever going to admit that Paul Tibbets was not Jews not one spec. If you held his corpse up to a laser light you would not see Jew particles. Yet you refuse to own up to your lie.

    You are evil personified for your constant misrepresentation of the Jews and Judaism.

    PG’s post about who created the Corona virus Israel or the US, did not make it to FB which would censured it for misinformation. I do not know whether Ron likes sensational posts for the click value. In my humble opinion PG’s post is tantamount to treason. Accusing or even suggesting that the US or Israel would spread a deadly virus on purpose. Shame on Ron and PG.

  396. @Fran Taubman

    you are correct I know nothing about you, and I guessed wrong I thought you were a robbed Suni, who traveled down the strict Arab path of no music.

    Shalom Fran,

    Thanks and hopefully we are good friends now. I am sure that you know what JAP means, that it doesn’t mean Japanese people, but it means, Jewish Aristocratic Princess. Some say it means, Jewish American Princess. When JAP’s married son found out that I am from Oman, he started to rank Shia and Iran, as according to him, Omanis don’t like either Shia or Iran. JAP put him at his place quickly. JAP turned out to be same age as my wife and I.

    The main religion is Oman is Ibadah. They are neither Sunni nor Shia. They don’t believe in third Caliph Usman as they consider him very corrupted who was in nepotism and building wealth for himself and his tribe by spreading Islam, while his military remained ragtag. Eventually, he was murdered by his military and they didn’t allow his body to be buried for several days. The Ibadah don’t believe in fourth Caliph Ali too. And, no other Caliphs after Ali. It is a long story as they used to be followers of Ali. Their belief is very much like Shia, that they believe like Shia that everything we see is created including the Quran. They believe like Shia that God doesn’t have body, shape, form, spirit, image and so forth. They believe in Imamat like Shia.

    In 7th century after the murder of Ali, they were considered worst Muslims. They lived outstrip of towns and were considered outcast from Islam. A very derogatory term. Today, they are the best of Muslims, better than Sunni and Shia. But the majority religion till today uses the derogatory term against them. Muslims have six Sharia or more. The majority of Sunni have four Sharia at least. So, because of six sects, Muslims have six conflicting Sharia. In a Muslim’s country the majority sect Sharia applies to all Muslims. Imagine the Judges knowing all those conflicting Sharia, and then rule on them. Husband and wife might be from different sects too!

    In Oman the Ibadah Sharia is applied for all Muslims. The Shia are very tiny minority in Oman, but only the Shia are allowed to use their own Sharia. The late HM Sultan Qaboos, God bless his soul allowed the Shia to use their own Sharia. And, he was very good friends with Iran. The things have not changed since his recent death, and will not change!

    Today, JAP is a very good person and she now carefully separates Judaism from the evil State of Israel. I am hoping that you will change too, as you have too much light in you!

  397. @Fran Taubman

    Anyone else get the idea Fran Taubman no-likely SolontoCroesus, or is it just me?

    Anyone else notice that what Fran Taubman hates most is when StoC ignores her?

  398. @Assad al-islam

    Thanks Assad. Yes we are friends and thank you for the polite responses despite our differences.
    I am a Zionist thru and thru, as I am 66 and lived with holocaust survivors and the 1st generation Zionist throughout my family. It is in my DNA. I have lived it since I was born. Zionist to the bitter end.
    I am the one they all hate on this site. I am not evil nor do I think Israel is evil. I am an honest person and say sincerely what I believe to be the facts. All the Israelis I know are kind people who are trying to survive like everyone else. It has been a struggle.

  399. @SolontoCroesus

    Anyone else get the idea Fran Taubman no-likely SolontoCroesus, or is it just me?

    It is just you.

  400. ‘… I am a Zionist thru and thru, as I am 66 and lived with holocaust survivors and the 1st generation Zionist throughout my family. It is in my DNA. I have lived it since I was born. Zionist to the bitter end.
    I am the one they all hate on this site…’

    I don’t think Fran is really enjoying life any more.

    Should we ask Ron to put her down?

  401. @Colin Wright

    More like “intellectual theft” than “heft”.

  402. @SolontoCroesus

    China imprisions over 1 million Muslims in camps for reeducation and you want to blame Israel and the US for the Corona virus. How morally bankrupt.

  403. @Fran Taubman

    China imprisions over 1 million Muslims in camps for reeducation and you want to blame Israel and the US for the Corona virus. How morally bankrupt.

    Shalom Fran,

    It is you who is morally bankrupt, but like I said before, you have too much light in you and you need to let this light shine though your heart. No doubt, your mind is closed but let the light shine through your heart. Fran my sister, open your heart.

    God bless Trump, he such a higher animal than most of us, that we don’t understand him fully. One thing I love about Trump that he constantly keeps on reminding everyone about FAKE NEWS. China imprisoning over 1 million Muslims is FAKE NEWS just like a three dollars bill. PM Modi of India is a very, very good friends of Muslims, and again there is so much FAKE NEWS about him. Trump got together the PM Modi of India and PM Imran of Pakistan and told them that each to permanent keep the parts of Kashmir they both occupy. PM Imran of Pakistan reluctantly agreed, and Modi came back and changed the Indian Constitution regarding Kashmir. Some Kashmaris didn’t like it but they have settled down now. God bless Trump and you can Google about changing the Indian Constitution regarding Kashmir.

    KSA with their petrol dollars has spread Wahhabism into Pakistan, India, Bangladesh where the majority of Muslims are uneducated. KSA has made these Muslims fanatic. Those who are some educated are not better nor those who have migrated to USA and Europe. Pakistan has about 70% Wahhabi and around 20% Shia. You can Google Indian Wahhabi preacher Zakir Naik who is a outcast from India. He is the biggest inciters of Muslims against Hindus, where the majority in India is Hindus.

    Fran there is no such thing as Coronavirus as Trump keeps on reminding us it is FAKE. There is no biological war. People are not dying of Coronavirus, they are dying of influenza. It is a experiment to lock down all countries and make them town, city, state, country a prison. No country has the balls to say it is FAKE and we are not doing anything. Just like the Y2K scare and FAKE Ebola virus, where each and each country was forced to buy antidote from Lord Vader making Cheney a very rich man. The only person is who really taking advantage of Coronavirus, is your Netanyahu, who is hellbent on destroying the so called Democracy of Israel. God bless Trump who has offered nothing but empty gestures to Netanyahu and Israel.

    Fran the only prison in the world was Gaza and still is. Now each town, each city, each state and each country has become a prison. God’s Justice, delivered by Trump and very soon it will be over, with tremendous financial loses to each country and their citizens. Fran open your heart as the Gazans are smiling on the fate of each and everyone. They no longer are the only prison. Fran open your heart to the Palestinians whom the EVIL State of Israel is committing war crimes against them on a daily basis.

    Mohamed

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  404. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    None of the Bolshevik leaders were Jewish even if you look thru a microscope at their DNA? Really?

    You’re delusional,
    Aizik Aronchik, attempted to assassinate the Tsar Alexander II.

    Adolph Joffe, Bolshevik diplomat.

    Lazar Kaganovich, First Deputy Premier of the Soviet Union and one of the principal architects of the Ukrainian famine.

    Lev Kamenev, Bolshevik leader.

    Maxim Litvinov, Soviet ambassador and Minister of Foreign Affairs.

    Grigory Sokolnikov, Bolshevik politician.

    Yakov Sverdlov, Bolshevik leader, the first head of state of the Russian SFSR.

    Leon Trotsky, Bolshevik politician, the founder of the Red Army.

    Genrikh Yagoda, head of Secret Police in the Stalin era (1934–1936).

    And if I did look with a microscope, low and behold, Lenin had a jewish great grandfather. But I won’t count that even though you invited me to.

    That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  405. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The short-lived Soviet Republic in Munich was led by two Russian immigrant Jews: Eugen Leviné and Max Levien.

    Bolshevik Jews sympathized with Talmudism more than with any other religion. Thus in 1905 the Jewish revolutionaries in Kiev boasted that they would turn St. Sophia cathedral into a synagogue. Again, in 1918 they erected a monument to Judas Iscariot in Sviazhsk, and in 1919 – in Tambov! Perhaps the strongest evidence of the continued religiosity of the Bolshevik Jews was the fact that when the Whites re-conquered Perm in 1918 they found many Jewish religious inscriptions in the former Bolshevik headquarters – as well as on the walls of the basement of the Ipatiev House in Yekaterinburg.

    But yeah, no bolshevik leaders were Jewish. You’re losing your marbles.

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  406. @Fran Taubman

    China imprisions over 1 million Muslims in camps for reeducation and you want to blame Israel and the US for the Corona virus. How morally bankrupt.

    Fran, both India and China love Muslims. There is a difference between India and China. Majority of the GCC (KSA, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar and Oman) population is Hindu from India. The monthly amount of money they send to India keeps their economy afloat. PM Modi is not going to jeopardize this. The Hindu Indians in GCC are in open driving luxury cars which they never seen in their lives.

    The Chinese are very low key. They stay in military style camps and are never allowed by their government to go in cities. They build all the ports from their own money for the silk route, connecting the world by sea. They control each and every port in the world including Israel. They own the fishing rights of each and every country and they are into massive fishing.

    USA is the only superpower, and China is no threat to them. China, Russia, the whole world including Israel work under the USA’s nod.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  407. @Poco

    But yeah, no bolshevik leaders were Jewish. You’re losing your marbles.

    Bro be nice to her as she is Jewish. She thinks like every Jew that they have the highest IQ and the rest of the world is dumb. She thinks that we don’t know sh*t from shineola!

    USA has filled them with so much HOT AIR, to pop their bubble at the right time, when the time will come to take the revenge of at least 310 million Christians perished in the last 100 years.

  408. Truth3 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The kosher laws state you cannot boil the kid in the mothers milk.

    But it is Jewish practice to shoot Palestinian children for no reason whatsoever.

    Or bulldoze their homes…

    Or keep their pregnant mothers standing in the hot sun at a checkpoint for days…

    Or torture their Brothers and Fathers…

    Or kill them with artillery fire…

    Or decapitate them with tank rounds designed to cut thru steel…

    Or invade their humanitarian boats and kill the occupants…

    Or dehumanize them in any way imaginable.

    You just can’t eat a cheeseburger while doing so.

    Yeah, so caring, aren’t they?

  409. @Assad al-islam

    ‘Bro be nice to her as she is Jewish. She thinks like every Jew that they have the highest IQ and the rest of the world is dumb. She thinks that we don’t know sh*t from shineola!

    The irony is that it tends to be the dumbest Jews who lean most heavily on the crutch.

    And it’s so worthless! So what if Fran is a member of a group that statistically is one twentieth smarter than the rest of us?

    Of the half dozen or so individuals participating in this conversation, Fran remains the most dim-witted; that fact isn’t affected one iota by her membership in some club.

    Someone living in Cambridge, Massachusetts might as well feel intellectually superior to me on the grounds that they’re physically closer to Harvard; the foundation for their arrogance is utterly spurious.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  410. @Assad al-islam

    ‘USA is the only superpower, and China is no threat to them. China, Russia, the whole world including Israel work under the USA’s nod.’

    I’m not saying it would be ideal, but it wouldn’t be so bad if only the arrangement you describe was the case.

    The difficulty is that you’ve reversed the places occupied by the US and Israel. We’re under the thumb of the national equivalent of a psychotic dwarf with delusions of grandeur.

  411. Truth3 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    You can not eat an animal that is a carnivore.

    But Jews can be the Wolves of Wall Street. Carnivores of the Economy.

    Stealing $ Trillions from the economy every year.

    Ripping off Pension Funds and the little guy with their scams.

    Living large 24/7/365 on the backs of the working man.

    But when they decide to eat some shrimp and lobster and wash it down with Dom, it’s with their Shiksa girlfriends, not their wives.

    With the Jewess bitch at home they keep kosher. Gotta keep up appearances.

    Aren’t Jews just so wonderful? Lovable little wolves aren’t they?

  412. @Assad al-islam

    God bless Trump, he such a higher animal than most of us, that we don’t understand him fully. One thing I love about Trump that he constantly keeps on reminding everyone about FAKE NEWS. China imprisoning over 1 million Muslims is FAKE NEWS just like a three dollars bill. PM Modi of India is a very, very good friends of Muslims, and again there is so much FAKE NEWS about him. Trump got together the PM Modi of India and PM Imran of Pakistan and told them that each to permanent keep the parts of Kashmir they both occupy. PM Imran of Pakistan reluctantly agreed, and Modi came back and changed the Indian Constitution regarding Kashmir. Some Kashmaris didn’t like it but they have settled down now. God bless Trump and you can Google about changing the Indian Constitution regarding Kashmir.

    I only know what I read if you know other facts I will take your word for it, but the Chinese have never embraced Islam.

    KSA with their petrol dollars has spread Wahhabism into Pakistan, India, Bangladesh where the majority of Muslims are uneducated. KSA has made these Muslims fanatic. Those who are some educated are not better nor those who have migrated to USA and Europe. Pakistan has about 70% Wahhabi and around 20% Shia. You can Google Indian Wahhabi preacher Zakir Naik who is a outcast from India. He is the biggest inciters of Muslims against Hindus, where the majority in India is Hindus.

    The inability of Hindu and Muslims to live together was what brought about the partition of Pakistan. Which was the blueprint for Israel and Palestine in 1948. Millions died during the partitioning of Pakistan and millions were left without status as there villages were liquidated. The division of India and Pakistan makes Israel look like summer camps with regards to statelessness and genocide.

    Fran the only prison in the world was Gaza and still is. Now each town, each city, each state and each country has become a prison. God’s Justice, delivered by Trump and very soon it will be over, with tremendous financial loses to each country and their citizens. Fran open your heart as the Gazans are smiling on the fate of each and everyone. They no longer are the only prison. Fran open your heart to the Palestinians whom the EVIL State of Israel is committing war crimes against them on a daily basis.

    Assad!! stop with this sob story bullshit!! It is not Israels fault what happened to Gaza. You must believe that when Israel pulled out of Gaza they hoped for the best. Israel envisioned Gaza to be like Singapore, with airport and operational port. Israel left Gaza with donations from Jews to keep the prosperous greenhouses going as a means of income for the Palestinians.
    This is what happened. This is not the only article, there are many you can google it is just the most succinct. When Gaza elected Hamas the good will was over. Hamas charter article #31 states that not one square inch of Israel belongs to the Jews. Hamas is a Jihadist organization sworn to the destruction of Israel and Jews. This is no secret Assad. All the poetry in the world cannot change these facts. What a horror story.

    Let’s go back to February of 2005. That’s when Israel did exactly what the Palestinians asked. They unilaterally pulled out of the Gaza Strip. Every Jew left the region. Israel got nothing. Palestinians got everything. For Israel, it was a straightforward show of goodwill.

    And Israel did not set the Gazans up to fail. In fact, they set them up to succeed. The Jews left millions of dollars in infrastructure. That included five hundred acres of sophisticated and expensive greenhouses. As Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza was being planned, NBC News said, “The greenhouses are a centerpiece of Palestinian plans for rebuilding Gaza.”

    But immediately following Israel’s withdrawal from the area, riots broke out across Gaza. During those riots, Palestinian mobs destroyed the greenhouses. Chaos reigned.

    It didn’t have to be that way. Israel wanted the Palestinians of Gaza to succeed. They wanted and needed a secure and stable neighbor. The nations of the world poured vast sums of money and materials into Gaza. It should have worked.

    Here’s why it did not work. Just a few weeks after Israel’s withdrawal, the people of Gaza elected a known terrorist group, Hamas, to govern them. With that choice, the Muslim people of Gaza chose hatred over happiness. They chose death over life. They chose rage over prosperity. They chose failure when success was ripe for the picking.

    A wide variety of both Muslim and non-Muslim nations have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. They include Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Israel, the United States, Japan, the European Union, New Zealand, Australia, and the United Kingdom.

    Some of the suffering in Gaza comes from the isolation imposed on it by its two neighbors – Israel and Egypt. Why does Egypt limit what goes in and out of Gaza from their side of the border? Because they don’t want to import terrorism into their nation any more than Israel does.

    The biggest cause of suffering in Gaza is the corruption of the Hamas-led Gazan government. Hamas leaders live in luxury while nearby children go hungry. They line their pockets with money brought into Gaza for humanitarian relief.

    https://pastormiketaylor.blogspot.com/2018/05/tragedy-in-gaza.html

    • Replies: @Ark
  413. Poco says:
    @Assad al-islam

    Truthfully, I wasn’t even thinking about revenge. Just correcting a lie. But egregious liars and manipulators make it very tempting. Maybe even inevitable.

  414. Truth3 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    … we Jews are pretty refined and would be the last people on the planet to consume bats or animals who might consume bat shit…

    Actually, you Frannie are 100% batshit crazy, so I am SURE that the Chinese take out you order in NYC is just absolutely bathed in bat shit.

    Enjoy your Bat Shit Foo Yung while you try to scam another clown out his stolen shekels by providing scrap metal twists at precious prices.

  415. @Poco

    What a crashing bore going name by name. This Jew that Jew. The idea of the Bolsheviks and the Russian Revolution was a noble idea, destroying the Aristocracy and the unequal feudal land system and slave peasants. The feudal aristocratic system all over Europe came down. The revolution was meant to create a middle class and a fair economic system for all. It was all good for good reasons.
    It turned into a totalitarian system for a number of reasons.

    There were Jews and non Jews that were evil villains in the system. I could name non Jews you could name Jews. So What. All of humanity is the same. There are good, bad and evil amongst all peoples.

    Stalin wasn’t Jewish Baria was not Jewish.

    None of the Jewish Bolsheviks were standing as Jews for a Jewish cause. It was not a religious conflict of Christians vs. Jews. The Russian revolution was a agnostic cause for humanity, and many Jews fought against communism and left.

    There were more non Jews then Jews involved. Many of the most idealistic an altruistic of the revolution were Jews, hoping for a better life not just for themselves but for everyone. The Jewish Bolsheviks were not Jew centric or superior.

    You choose to single out Jews as it helps you qualify your Jew hatred.
    Like I said a crashing bore. Why not move over and look at the cultural revolution in China under Mao Zedung, where 1.5 million Chinese lost their lives and there was not a Jew in site through microscopic searches? Not even a Jewish fingernail.
    Oh no Jews involved not interested.

  416. Truth3 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Never mind that the historical record is wholly at odds with Fatah’s explanation for Jew-hatred.

    Yes… the Historical Record.

    Where should we start?

    How about the Jewish invention of modern terrorism… via bombings and murders in Mandatory Palestine.

    How about The Jews and the Nakba… the massacres of countless Palestinians to force the remainder to flee for their lives.

    How about the numerous Wars of Aggression… remember, this was considered the ultimate War Crime.

    How about the subjugation of every possible right denied the Palstinian people for over 70 years.

    Tell me Frannie… how exactly the record proves that Palestinian hatred for Jews is NOT well founded by Jewish actions?

  417. Truth3 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    The idea of the Bolsheviks and the Russian Revolution was a noble idea…

    Here’s Frannie upside down logic…

    “No, the Bolsheviks were not at all Jewish.”

    “Ok, so they were… and were all Noble Men.”

  418. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Not even a Jewish fingernail.

    Speaking of Jewish fingernails, Fran:

    “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” –Rabbi Ya’acov Perin in his eulogy at the funeral of mass murderer Dr. Baruch Goldstein.

    https://devrolijkemoslim.blogspot.com/2006/05/one-million-arabs-are-not-worth-jewish.html?m=1

    But we’re still all equal. Some are just more equal than others!

  419. @Colin Wright

    My poodles are intellectually superior to you Colin.

  420. @Assad al-islam

    And here I thought we were friends and you retreat to standard tropes we can find in cartoons.
    I thought we were shooting for a higher plain to work from. Disappointed Assad.

    Bro be nice to her as she is Jewish. She thinks like every Jew that they have the highest IQ and the rest of the world is dumb. She thinks that we don’t know sh*t from shineola!

    Come on no one thinks this.

    USA has filled them with so much HOT AIR, to pop their bubble at the right time, when the time will come to take the revenge of at least 310 million Christians perished in the last 100 years.

    So it sounds to me Assad that you are not wishing us well. That you think we are in for kaboom for killing 300 million Christians. Is that what you are saying. Because that sounds like genocide to me.
    Jews killed 300 million Christians. Why not a billion? Why not a billion Christian Children and their dogs and cats.
    What kind of nonsense is this. I could be talking to a neanderthal Nazi on this site and get better then this.

    What are you saying Assad be clear.

    • Replies: @Assad al-islam
  421. Truth3 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    All of humanity is the same.

    Says Rabbi at the murderer Baruch Goldstein’s funeral…

    … Rabbi Yaacov Perrin claimed that even one million Arabs are “not worth a Jewish fingernail”

    Seems you are far away from reality in trying to claim equality of humans while espousing every ugly idea of Judaism / Talmudism / Zionism there… Frannie.

    All of humanity are not the same. Too bad.

    Jews are different. Very different.

    And NOT in any good way.

    Evil teachings create evil people.

    So obvious that you are a product of your teachings.

    PS… wow… geokat beat me to it!

  422. Truth3 says:

    Jews killed 300 million Christians.

    Probably more Frannie, but after the murder of Christ, that just created a lot of martyrs.

    You do hate Jesus, don’t you Frannie.

    You hate Christians.

    You hate Truth.

    You hate the God that spoke Truth, as He is not the G_d that Jews really worship… Satan.

    Read John 8:44 and tell me…

    Am I lying?

  423. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Hey dullard. I didn’t say that there were no non-jews involved. I only singled out jews because you said no jews were involved. So I listed some for you. What a fundamentally dishonest individual you are.

  424. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    First you say no jews involved. So I list some for you. Then you accuse me of singling out jews. Piss on your type, whatever it is.

  425. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Also, your post was about the bolsheviks and their leadership not Maoists and their leadership. Don’t twist what was written to imply something I wasn’t addressing.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  426. @Poco

    Never ever said no Jews involved you retard. Of course there were Jews involved. I said that there were Jews and non Jews. I said the Bolsheviks and the Russian Revolution was not a Jew controlled effort, and that the deaths caused by famines and round ups could not be blamed solely on the Jews as many people on this site have said.
    I also said that all humanity is the same. There is good in evil in all shapes sizes, religions and countries. The Jews have no more or less evil then others. My comments are basic common sense.
    You are trying to trap Jews into being killers more then most. It is all horseshit. Your entire premise.
    Below is what I said.

    There were Jews and non Jews that were evil villains in the system. I could name non Jews you could name Jews. So What. All of humanity is the same. There are good, bad and evil amongst all peoples.

    • Replies: @Poco
    , @Poco
  427. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Hey stupid ass, you wrote, “None of the Bolshevik leaders were jewish even if you look thru a microscope at their DNA.”

    This is what I was addressing.

  428. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    More twisting of words and meanings and intent. When you write things like no jews were leaders among the bolsheviks, even if you look with a microscope, it is plain to see who is singling out whom.There were some jewish leaders among the bolsheviks. Founder of the army and leader of the Cheka are pretty important leadership positions. Scumbag.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  429. @Fran Taubman

    What are you saying Assad be clear.

    Shalom Fran,

    Most of the people on this forum are very low IQ like I am. JAP came to the moderate Muslim forum to learn as she was fighting internal battles. No one made her to be at that forum, it was the light in her which pushed her toward the forum. Fran you are same like JAP with too many internal battles. Your light is pushing you and will shine through just like the JAP’s light did. Fran, why are on this forum? I am sure it is not because you want to have wars with Jews’ haters on this forum. You are here because the light in you is forcing you too. Why I am on this forum and other too? I am here to show that they are Muslims who under taqiyya are demeaning the Prophet with their false cooked hadiths.

    When someone is doing Jihad bi-Klam (struggle with pen), especially towards the accusation against the Prophet with false cooked hadiths then they have to pay a very, very high price. They try to stop me, when everything fails, they claim that I am sectarian, and they are saving this forum. I am struggling against the accusations, that the Prophet married a child, he used to torture prisoners, he used to put hot iron in their eyes and then leave them in a ditch to die of hunger and thirst, he used to kill people for leaving Islam, on and on.

    Fran you are in USA, and you should know who Karl Rove is? I am going to quote you his famous quote, if you understand it you will agree with me there is no such thing as Coronavirus and it is FAKE. Half a million people die every year from regular flu. Gaza is prison, now every town, every city, every county, every state, every country in the world has become prison too. Fran, God is JUST!

    “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out.”

    Chew on this very, very carefully my sister Fran!

    Blessed be ha Shem!

  430. @Poco

    When I said leaders I meant the people at the top.
    Below is the premiers of the Soviet Union.
    Below that are the people in Stalin’s inner circle and politburo.
    Is there Jew in that group? A grandmother? Great grandmother according tot he Nuremberg laws?
    Are these people not the definitive leaders of the Communist party and the Soviet Union?
    Were these people ghost that the real leaders the Jews whispered in their years. When I here people claim that Communism was all a Jewish controlled bureaucracy, and the Jews are responsible for the deaths. I think wow so all these other people were just window dressing.

    [MORE]

    USSR Leader Leadership Began Leadership Ended Title
    Vladimir Ilych Lenin 30 December 1922 21 January 1924 Chairman, Premier
    Joseph Stalin 21 January 1924 5 March 1953 General Secretary, Premier
    Georgy Malenkov 5 March 1953 8 February 1955 Premier
    Nikita Khrushchev 8 February 1955 14 October 1964 First Secretary, Chairman
    Leonid Brezhnev 14 October 1964 10 November 1982 First Secretary, General Secretary, Chairman
    Yuri Andropov 12 November 1982 9 February 1984 General Secretary, Chairman
    Konstantin Chernenko 13 February 1984 10 March 1985 General Secretary, Chairman
    Mikhail Gorbachev 11 March 1985 25 December 1991 General Secretary, Chairman, President
    Collapse and Dissolution

    Stalins inner circle

    Lavrenti Beria
    Gregory Malenkov
    Nikita Khrushchev
    Vyacheslav Molotov
    Lazar Kaganovich,
    Kliment Voroshilov,
    Sergei Kirov,
    Valerian Kuibyshev,
    and Andrei Zhdanov.

    • Replies: @Poco
    , @Ark
  431. Poco says:
    @Fran Taubman

    If you had written that no jew was ever General Secretary then I would have never disputed it. I never made mention of responsibility for deaths. You read things I didn’t write. And claim my responses address things they didn’t address.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  432. @Skeptikal

    Adding an h in German changes everything, makes a double umlaut or functions like an English hyphen, as in Rothschild for Rot-Schild.

  433. @Poco

    lets call it a misunderstanding. I always knew there were prominent Jews in the Communist regime.

    • Agree: Poco
  434. Ark says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Your comment is filled with strawmen and ad-hominem fallacies, it also fails to address the core argument.

    “Hitler would agree.”

    Adolph Hitler’s ideology was all about sovereignty, independence and self sufficiency.
    Jews and their state are the exact opposite of that.
    To this day, organised Jewry still begs for Holocaust reparations, how PATHETIC!
    He would not approve of the state equivalent of a sassy black welfare queen.

    “Israel is light years ahead of any country in that region.”

    Correct, but that also STILL heavily relies on America’s willingness to provide tech transfers, military hardware, advantageous trade deals.
    The US is also rigging the military balance in the ME to Israel’s favor.
    The Zionist’s expansionary foreign policy is entirely paid for by American blood and treasury.

  435. Ark says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Prior to the Stalinist purges, yes.
    There was a disproportionate amount of Jews in leadership positions.
    And there still was after it happened, just lower in amount.
    Both Lennin (partially so) and Trotsky were Jewish.
    The man who carried out the Holdomor was a Jew (Lazar Kaganovich).

  436. Ark says:
    @Fran Taubman

    “Assad!! stop with this sob story bullshit!!”
    The irony of a member of one of the world’s whinniest ethnic groups making such a statement does not escape me.
    Organised jewry still won’t shut up about the unfortunate shower that Hitler gave them during WWII and have the audacity to even continue to parasiticly extract reparations from the Germans to THIS very day.
    The Jew is INCAPABLE of ever being consistent.

  437. @Assad al-islam

    I lived in Oman for 5 years (Office in Mutrah, Sponsor/Partner a Baluchi) and as an Omani, you sir are not entirely correct-

    …Baluchi, Sindhi (Like Saleh Zakwani, whom I knew, who owned Apex Publishing) and other Omanis of Indian descent are Shiite.

    …This created a minor problem for my sponsor/homeboy/business partner because the woman he married was Nizwa Ibadhi.

    Shia are Omanis of Persian descent. So-called Al Farsi. Farsi Omanis are a small but influential group from Southern Iran.

    …Zanzibar Omanis, and I knew many, are Muslim but incorporate some Tanzanian rituals into their beliefs.

    Omani is a country of immigrants. I lived in Al-Kuwair and MQ, not PDO or Shatti Al Qurm, so I was down with the real Muscat culture.

  438. geokat62 says:

    • Replies: @geokat62
  439. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    By way of follow-up to my previous post, I just wanted to highlight that the tweet by Dr Ricardo Duchesne refers to a documentary produced by the CBS News program, 60 Minutes.

    The documentary is called Subsidies for minivans: Hungarian government paying citizens to start families, but only the “right” kinds of families:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hungary-paying-citizens-to-have-babies-60-minutes-2020-03-22/#

    In it, the host interviews a woman named Anna Donath. She is “a Hungarian member of the European Parliament and a leader of the Momentum Party, a political upstart which opposes the government that’s now been in power for ten years.”

    I did a little background check on Anna:

    Anna Júlia Donáth was born on 6 April 1987 in Budapest, Hungary to László Donáth and Ildikó Muntag. She is the youngest of three siblings. Her father László Donáth is a pastor, and a former member of parliament for the Hungarian Socialist Party. Her paternal grandfather, Ferenc Donáth, is of Jewish descent, and was a lawyer and one of the three secretaries of the Central Committee of the Hungarian Socialist Workers’ Party during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Júlia_Donáth

    Every. Single. Time.

    Do you think we’ll soon see (((Anna))) or her other “journalistic” colleagues calling for the Jewish state to open its borders to mass immigration? Fat chance!

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