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The Philosophy That Drives the Chaos
Julianne Romanello & Gilad Atzmon interviewed by Jason Bosch
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In this extended discussion Julianne Romanello and myself together with Jason Bosch delve into the ideological and spiritual thoughts that have turned our world into an open air prison. We looked into the work of Leo Strauss, Athens & Jerusalem, Noahide fundamentals, the origin of Zionism and many other crucial topics most intellectuals insist to avoid…

(Republished from Gilad Atzmon by permission of author or representative)
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Philosophy, Zionism 
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  1. monopduly says: • Website

    Renowned theologian N.T. Wright points to 1st century, 2nd Temple Judaism, as ‘the many Judaisms, all of which were Messianic. The crisis of the Roman occupation led the Qumran faction, which in its War Scroll, proclaimed an ethno nationalist exterminationist theology of dispossession, in the direction of race war, leading eventually to the parental murders of their children, and subsequent suicides, at Masada. The non-violent, universalist faction, led by the Essene John the Baptist, led to the Ebionite Church in Jerusalem under James, the brother of Jesus Christ, later perverted under Pauline perversion of the teachings of Jesus, into the state religion of the pagan Roman empire.

    . Both factions began as authentic Jewish intellectual movements with important contributions to human intellectual and moral history. The first espoused the right of self-determination for subject peoples. The 2nd reinforced this moral truth within an evolutionary universalist doctrine. Both espoused a Golden Rule ethic of moral respect and decency for the Other, the stranger.

    Masada and Rome merge today in the statist authoritarian religion of Judeo-Christianity, a merger of medieval Rabbinic chosen-ness and Christian Reformation antinomian lawlessness. How ere Jews and evangelical Christians weaponized into tools of an imperial transnational elite, both then and now? Ho were African Americans weaponized into brownshirts for this same elite, destroying their family structures and community health in the same process?

    The answer is biological. Unz, Atzmon, MacDonald. EM Jones, and Romantello have to grapple with this truth. Religious and cultural value systems in general are biologically evolved solutions to human social problems. The many Judaisms and many Christianities of the ancient and modern eras were attempts at solving problems, the central one of how to live as a human being under the auspices of a parasitic elite. This is not a metaphor. There exists, has always existed, a Human Intraspecifc Social Parasite (HISP) , that employs ‘Phenotypic Manipulation’ to pervert culturally protective values of its host. The Zionist Jews and Christians today are merely tragic victims of this manipulation, as are the racial identitarians of Minneapolis and Durban. The trajectory ends in child murder, suicide, Masada.

  2. man says:

    All that talk , philosophy , religion, science, comes to a question, why some people want to dominate other people. Why some frustrated Jews want to overcome the world. The world is perverted from the moment when sin entered it. Philosophy , religion, science is perverted, intellect cannot understand God. Natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, philosophy is sourced from occult, science is lying, religion is taken captive. Israel is an example to us , what happened to people who followed their own hearts. Psalm 95 provides an answer,: As I have sworn in My wrath, ‘If they shall enter into My rest’. They are restless, unhappy people,hating their own and others. Following the desires of their father as Christ said to them, You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

  3. later perverted under Pauline perversion of the teachings of Jesus, into the state religion of the pagan Roman empire.

    I’m calling bullshit – where did NT Wright say that?

    • Replies: @monopduly
  4. monopduly says: • Website

    Religion is an evolved perceptual and moral ( survival rules) solution to the problem of Within Species, ‘Intraspecific’ Social Parasitism in Human Primates (HISP, see above0. Biologists and primatologists are beginning to see this phenomenon in human socities historic and present day, see Clara B. Jones:

    I. Types of Social Parasitism: Coexistence in the same nest of two species of social insects, one of which is parasitically dependent upon the other. The term can, also, be applied loosely to the relation between symphiles and their social insect hosts. Symbioses, Commensalism; no documented cases of Mutualism. [Symphilic: an amicably-accepted symbiont; Symbiont: An organism living in symbiosis with another–n.b. Not all researchers consider Social Parasitism to be, Symbiosis].

    1. Inquilinism: The relation in which a socially parasitic species spends the entire life cycle in the nests of its host species. Workers are either lacking or if present, scarce and degenerate in behavior. This condition sometimes referred to as “permanent parasitism”
    2. Dulosis: The relation in which workers of a parasitic [dulotic or slave-making] ant species raid the nests of another species, capture brood [usually pupae], and rear them as enslaved nestmates.
    3.Xenobiosis: The relation in which colonies of one species live in the nests of another species and move freely among the hosts, obtaining food from them by regurgitation or other means but still keeping their brood separate.
    4.Parabiosis: The utilization of the same nest and sometimes the same odor trails by colonies of different species which nevertheless keep their broods separate.
    5. Cleptobiosis: The relation in which one species robs the food stores or scavenges in the refuse piles of another species but does not nest in close association with it.
    6. Lestobiosis: The relation in which colonies of a small species nest in the walls of the nests of a larger species and enter the chambers of the larger species to prey on brood or to rob the food stores.
    7. Plesiobiosis: The close proximity of two or more nests, accompanied by little or no direct communiccation between the colonies inhabiting them.

    n.b. “intermorph;” compound nests; mixed colonies

    II. Social Parasitism most likely to be observed during population expansion or colony foundation. [in mammals, during dispersal?, settlement?]

    III. Evolutionary factors: Disruptive Selection; Emery’s Rule [parasite & host closely related or similar in other ways–in social insects, many exceptions to this rule observed]; Allopatric or Sympatric speciation [rapid rate of speciation]; Competition: [-, – interactions between species (or individuals?)]

    IV. Do the principles observed in social insects apply across scale [i.e., to the individual level] and/or to other taxa, including, humans?

    Clearly the Transnational Elite pursues a biological strategy of Social Parasitism, which, under Emery’s Rule, posits the formation of potential human sub population speciation.

    And no, this is not restricted to ethnic clades in the human population, e.g. Jews, WASPs, Brahmins, Mandarins etc. It is ubiquitous across race, culture, and time.

    Human history itself then may be seen as merely the co-evolutionary ‘Red Queen’ dynamics of Parasite Host interaction.

    • Agree: Mulga Mumblebrain
    • Replies: @thotmonger
    , @Bert
    , @Fr. John
  5. monopduly says:
    @Tsar Nicholas

    NT Wright did not say that – he is a strong Paul advocate . Others have, but its a side point.

  6. anon[247] • Disclaimer says:

    why do Rabbis teach their flock that all Christians should die ?

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  7. Hitmarck says:

    So glad Gilad finally learned that travel makes people stupid.
    Sad that those insights take nearly a lifetime to aquire, right.

  8. @man

    There are psychopaths in every collective. They eventually create ideologies that justify their pathopsychology of hatred of others, one another and of themselves, xenophobia, misanthropy, unbridled greed etc. Judaism for the God-bothered, capitalism for the terminally avaricious, ‘American Exceptionalism’ for the New World off-shoots of both, ‘Western Civilization’ for racial and cultural supremacists etc.
    These often overlap in one individual or like-minded group. They have long held the upper hand in human affairs, hence the huge massacres of imperialism, colonialism, internecine wars and genocide of the untermenschen. Their final triumph is, naturally enough, the ecological Holocaust, the extirpation of Life on Earth itself, in a frenzy of hatred of that which cannot and ought not be subject to the individual or group egomania of lunatics.

    • Replies: @BAP
  9. @anon

    You have to say ‘some Rabbis’ because not all Rabbis preach such doctrine. But many do and always have done so, a truth that must never be mentioned.

    • Replies: @Fr. John
  10. Hunter and gatherer folk, and their ancestors, that is, several million years, were not DOMINATING forces. Think fertile crescent, 12,000 years ago, and killing that tradition of relying on your own clan, wits, and hunting and gathering. Locking up food, enslaving people, barbed wire and feudalism, well, that’s the ticket. Read Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn. But for how:

    In this era of decline for U.S. imperialist hegemony and contraction in capital, colonialism increasingly asserts itself through crude and haphazard exercises in profit-driven brutality. Like how the Roman empire during its era of decay turned to barbarian armies of an often renegade nature, Washington is more and more resorting to the tactics of extravagantly paying private mercenary contractors for its global terrorism operations, and of sadistically torturing colonialism’s victims for the profits of U.S. imperialism’s internal prison-industrial complex.

    In this landscape where the reactionaries are simultaneously lashing out with ever more ferocity, and experiencing a weakening of their system, those who seek national and class liberation are presented with opportunities for exploiting these weaknesses. But to succeed, we must recognize the ways that the reactionaries are still capable of harming us. Gaza shows the full extent of how the revolutionary forces can be made isolated, besieged, and subject to the instruments of privatized terror which imperialism is proliferating.

    Israel, like Latin America’s U.S. neo-colonies, has always been used as a laboratory in necro-politics. Washington takes the advancements in surveillance, repressive techniques, censorship, para-state violence, and propaganda that the Zionist state creates to sustain its colonial war, and applies them to the other places where the empire is fighting off resistance. Israel has sold the technologies it uses to intensively monitor the occupied Palestinian population to Colombia, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia, South Sudan, the UAE, Uzbekistan, and many other governments. Israel has been exporting its Hasbara propaganda model to the Gulf monarchies, in addition to the special relationship that it’s solidified with the U.S. media. Israel has shipped weapons to Ukraine’s genocidal U.S.-installed regime, sold military technologies to right-wing Latin American governments like the ones in Colombia and Brazil, and provided training to U.S. police forces — to the consequence that law enforcement violence against nonwhites within the U.S. has been noticeably rising over the last decade.

    It’s unsurprising that the U.S. has been perhaps the largest importer of Israel’s tools, incorporating Israeli social control mechanisms which range everywhere from policing to spying to propaganda to missile defense in the form of a Raytheon-developed U.S. Iron Dome system. The U.S. is the settler state where colonialism’s contradictions are pronounced in a similar level of intensity to how they are in Israel; it’s trying to maintain its global military primacy amidst an emerging multi-polar world order, at the same time that it’s trying to prevent a rebellion from its internal colonized peoples and struggling to respond to a record influx of indigenous southern refugees.

    • Agree: Jim Christian
    • Replies: @Sin City Milla

    Old time religion – – racism, hatred, spying, compliance, and the Scarlet Letter, Pink Star, A Dead Commie is a Good Commie mentality of these Judea-Christian psychopaths, until,


    Microsoft, Google join Whatsapp lawsuit vs. Israeli spyware developer
    Stuxnet: The Israeli-American Computer Virus That Started Cyber-Warfare


    Snowden: Israeli technology may have helped Saudis kill journalist
    Israeli Spying on US, Perfecting 24/7 Surveillance Tech
    Why did Microsoft fund an Israeli firm that surveils West Bank Palestinians?
    Israel Launches Internet “Command Center” to Monitor Social Media
    Julian Assange exposed the crimes of powerful actors, including Israel
    Israel advocate Ravich named to senior intelligence post, planned US-Israel cyber project against BDS


    ADL to Build Silicon Valley Center to Monitor & Fight “Cyberhate” [Video]
    Israel is Training U.S. Police

  12. Wow! I was put off at first by the dainty, young lady but I am so glad I gave her a full hearing. What a deep and penetrating thinker she turns out to be! It seems even Mr. Deep Thinker himself– Gilad — experienced some amazement. She is taking the discussion to a whole new level. I intend to find out more about her and follow her observations closely. Thank you for posting this discussion, Gilad.

  13. @monopduly

    Several of the ant types fit the modern Neanderthal analogue. The closest may be Lestobiosis. But are there any ant species that mobilize the garrisons of other ants to wage wars for them to plunder resources primarily to the benefit of the social parasite? If so, perhaps it should be named X. netanyahooinia.

  14. Good discussion. Thanks. I enjoyed this one too:

    p.s. BDS Israel was taken seriously by Israel because they rightly fear it. At the very least it would end the gravy train from USA. But why elected representatives in USA are allowing our First Amendment to get its teeth kicked in over this mystifies me. The oath, the oath… How could you forsake your oath?!?

    • Replies: @Chris Moore
  15. Bert says:

    Clearly the Transnational Elite pursues a biological strategy of Social Parasitism, which, under Emery’s Rule, posits the formation of potential human sub population speciation.

    You seem to overrate the endogamous nature of elites. The history of the Norman elite in Britain is unusually long-lasting. The Chinese meritocratic elite was by definition not endogamous.

    Human history itself then may be seen as merely the co-evolutionary ‘Red Queen’ dynamics of Parasite Host interaction.

    No, human history is better explained as inter-ethnic competition and replacement.

  16. @monopduly

    I won’t deny that biology always plays a part, but cultural environment also plays an important part.
    This quote from you lends credence to this view —
    “Human Intraspecifc Social Parasite (HISP) , that employs ‘Phenotypic Manipulation’ to pervert culturally protective values of its host. ” (my italics).

  17. @monopduly

    The Masada myth is a modern Israeli nationalist construction. The Jewish historian Josephus informs us that the renegades who were holed up there had little to do with the rebellion against Rome that had been suppressed three years earlier. In fact they were from the faction that was expelled from Jerusalem at the start of the insurrection in 66. They spent much of the subsequent years as bandits, preying on Jews and foreigners alike. Their final act before fleeing to Herod’s mountaintop palace was to massacre the inhabitants of the small Jewish village at the foot of the mountain and steal their provisions.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  18. Chris Moore says: • Website

    But why elected representatives in USA are allowing our First Amendment to get its teeth kicked in over this mystifies me. The oath, the oath… How could you forsake your oath?!?

    Because the ((Parasite)) has systematically infiltrated the Federal Government over many decades and is using it to feather its own nest and destroy its enemies.

    Does the neocon and shitlib rank and file give a rat’s ass about the US Constitution? Of course not. Why do you think the ((Parasite)) opened up the borders and basically quite naturalizing the hordes clamoring to get into the country (because the ((Parasite)) has destroyed their native lands)?

    Greenwald talks about how conservative Ann Coulter and liberal Rachel Maddow have flipped places, with Coulter now basically saying Bring the boys back home, and Maddow now advocating endless and militant international interventionism.

    Maddow is now a whore of the Parasite. But the reason she was hired and promoted over the decades in the first place is because the Parasite knew she would eventually make a good queen whore. Same with most of the whores in MSM.

    Meanwhile, Ann Coulter, who was too stupid to see what the neocon wing of the Parasite was doing in the GW Bush years, has finally realized what its game is, and is now desperate to stop it.

    Why couldn’t she see what the Parasite was up to all along? Because the Parasite’s “anti-Semitism” wail and claimed “Jewish” identity has basically neutered or blinded most opposition, and still does.

    You’ll recall how Trump was accused of “anti-Semitism” and “racism” relentlessly in his first campaign. Of course, he was already compromised by the Parasite, but that relentless drumbeat assured any major America First instincts would also be neutered, and then snuffed out entirely by his second campaign.

    Treason against the US Constitution and all legal principles that underpin it, or any nation’s laws that might curtail its predations, is innate to the Parasite. That’s why it’s destroying America’s borders, and refuses to draw borders in Israel. That’s why it wants “One World” government.

    Does the Parasite know it’s a parasite, or think its “chosen”? At the inner core, I think it knows it’s a parasite, and simply doesn’t care about its crimes against the nation, or its crimes against humanity. A conscience is for the “little people,” as are taxes.

  19. Fr. John says:

    Please, don’t comment on things you know NOTHING about. It only shows up your utter stupidity and Christophobia.

    Unless (of course) you are a Jew. Then all bets are off, Deicide.

    • Disagree: Mulga Mumblebrain
  20. Fr. John says:

    You are neither God, nor omniscient, nor without sin.

    When you can die on a Cross, and Resurrect yourself, Get back to me…


  21. Fr. John says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    “You have to say ‘some Rabbis’ because not all Rabbis preach such doctrine. ‘

    If they are jews, they are ALL guilty. Of Deicide… at the very least. As long as they REMAIN Jewish, they are guilty.

    “Christianity is our only real enemy since all the political and economic phenomena of the bourgeois states are only its consequences,” Rakovsky, says. (All page citations from Griffin, Fourth Reich of the Rich, 1988, p. 264)
    – ‘Christian’ Rakovsky (born CHAIM Rakover in 1873) was a veteran Communist insider facing execution for plotting to overthrow Stalin.

    “If my son’s did not WANT wars there would be NONE”. Gutle Schnaper Rothschild, wife of Mayer Amschel Rothschild, on her deathbed, 1849.

    ‘Thanks to the terrible power of our International Banks, we have forced the Christians into wars without number. Wars have a special value for Jews, since Christians massacre each other and make more room for us Jews. Wars are the Jews’ Harvest: The Jew banks grow fat on Christian wars. Over 100-million Christians have been swept off the face of the earth by wars, and the end is not yet.’ (Rabbi Reichorn, speaking at the funeral of Grand Rabbi Simeon Ben-Iudah, 1869.

    “The role of the President of the United States is to support the decisions that are made by the people of Israel.” -Ann Lewis, speaking for Hillary Clinton, at the meeting for Jewish Leadership sponsored by the United Jewish Communities on March 18, 2008 (Jewess Ann Lewis is sister to Congressman Barney Frank).

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  22. @Fr. John

    You’re probably the Zionazi, with your rabid Judeophobia, attempting to smear us all by association. An old Zionazi trick.

    • Agree: Bugey libre
    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
  23. I think the discussion framed the current situation. The wealthy Zionist and cultural Christian Zionist element is easy to see. They aren’t the only Jerusalemites now or in history. Athens is the way to go but Socrates was canceled. Jesus is mentioned but Jews and other supposed heretics were burned at the stake. I don’t recall Jesus saying, “question everything.” Ancient knowledge was destroyed by fanatics. The Medici were all into the Renaissance, rediscovering Europe’s heritage when the Christian inquisition came knocking. Then they decided the Enlightenment with Galileo would be better. Galileo ended up in house arrest because the Christian church disagreed with his scientific discovery. I bet the Rothschilds have nothing on the Medici, who bankrolled the modern world, and caused the Protestant Reformation. This collective obsessive compulsive personality disorder is rearing its head again in modern Western politics over COVID-19. Freedom of speech is under attack. We may have to give up current platforms for more anonymous ones eventually, not only so we can speak, but so we can’t be canceled.

    I wonder if Carroll Quigley is right, that to avert catastrophe the European core of the West must reinvent itself in order to rejuvenate itself and expand, and if it doesn’t them the peripheral Universal Empire (cheap imitation of the core civilization) aka the United States will lead to the end of Western Civilization. The US is ossified with credentialism and growing identitarianism. The new peerage. Their crisis is that some people can recognize the fools behind the credentials for what they really are: shills who paid a lot of money for status. I’ve seen writings from Jewish magazines explaining that identitarianism is a way for credentialed white people to climb the modern peerage system: cancel the competition. Zionist like Bari Weiss and Daniel Greenfield are uncomfortable with weaponized identitarianism because they unlike the Democrats are capable of passing the mirror self-recognition test. They also know that Palestinians have darker skin than them so they lose out based on skin color. I think they are sincere in their concern because their ancestors slept with too many Europeans and it shows. How can identitarianism be good for the Jews when most Jews are white?

  24. “What Israeli soldiers don’t demolish by day, settlers burn by night”

  25. anon[825] • Disclaimer says:

    Interesting discussion what I’ve listened to.
    Learned more about Athens vs Jerusalem.

    If not for the few remaining Christians and Muslims, Jerusalem would be Hell.

    Surprised to know about Tulsa. Maybe shouldn’t be.
    It was the home of Oral Roberts, zionized huckster.

    Left life past his rightful expiration date.
    Kept contributing to Hells on Earth: Jerusalem, Tulsa, ?.

    Finally, begging, crying, he came short, Satan claimed.

    5 dancing shlomos

  26. Zumbuddi says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    More than a little reality (truthiness) in what Fr. John wrote. I agree with comment #21.

    You, MM, OTOH — the term “Zionazi” makes as much sense as “Judeo-Christian.”

    If you don’t realize that each entity is distinct, then you are scoring for the adversary.

  27. @Zumbuddi

    I believe that Zionism is for the Jews as Nazism was for Germans. A supremacist, racist, chauvinistic, hyper nationalist, expansionist, colonialist ideology. In fact I often wonder whether the Nazis modeled their ideology on Judaism, as I think it is plain that the Afrikaaners did in South Africa. Zionazism, therefore, is redundant, but I like it. There’s a touch of the concept of transference in it, but, as I said, I think it was a two-way street.

    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
    , @Uncoy
  28. Zumbuddi says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    Thanks for reply, MM.

    I argue that what you “believe” is emotional, notional, and apparently based on propagandistic narratives rather than rigorously considered data.

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  29. I. Rose says:

    There’s a lot here. True to the title the conversation remains within
    the academic discourse. This to my mind is a serous limiting factor
    especially when looking for ways out of ‘our’ ‘Western’ conundrum,
    whether we’re Jerusalemites or Athenians.
    As the founders of the universities themselves proclaimed: the purpose
    of Scholastic methods was “to stimulate its readers to resolve the
    seeming (!) contradictions, not to discredit the principle of
    authority. (Abelard 1079-1142; The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian
    It is in my, non-academic opinion, M o n o t h e i s m that has
    brought along the notion of choseness/exceptionalism — the One and
    Only Male God bestowing exception on Hu/mans over all of life,
    initiating a battle against woman, nature and Time.
    There is no such thing as “Matriarchal supremacy,” Gilad, there is
    plural symbiosis, ‘a kinship with all life’ or War.
    In this vein, mentioning Sarah Schulman’s book as having “Zero
    Academic Value” is in my mind quite a complement that reflects well on
    what little I know of the book (discloser, I have not read it) but I
    know Sarah and I heard her read excerpts from her book and it
    resonated in its deeply authentic, and truthful exploration of her
    belated opening-up to the Palestinian realities. And acting out of her
    own lived experiences she come up with an authentic, quite an original
    (both huge No-no in Academe; and no need to snicker, Dr. Romanello)
    action brining gay and lesbian Palestinians to campuses in the US. OK
    it didn’t work, it didn’t bring the desired liberation to Palestine, too bad.
    What is extremely important to continue explore and expose is how
    money and NGO’s are, and have been for years, destroying all
    grassroots initiatives all over the world; how all libratory efforts,
    BDS included, have been hijacked, harvested, corrupted and branded.

  30. @Zumbuddi

    I beg to differ. The similarities are copious and convincing, but the descent into chauvinistic, supremacist, lunacy is common in history. How much easier, indeed innate, is it for a group that variously sees themselves as the supreme creatures on Earth, God himself and ordered by their Divinity to separate from all others and live in fear and hatred of them. Could it have turned out any other way, particularly given the intensive brainwashing of the yeshiva, the brutal oppression by the Rabbis and the tendency for free-thinkers to simply leave the tribe, if they can escape with their lives. For 3500 years up until the emancipation. There must be genetic and epigenetic effects at work, let alone the ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ type indoctrination and confinement in ghettos, and invention of the Rabbis, not the goyim.

    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
  31. @Observator

    ‘…The Masada myth is a modern Israeli nationalist construction…’

    What was interesting was that the Masada myth glorified suicide — and the Jews dropped it like a hot potato once the Palestinians started resorting to suicide bombers.

    ‘Oh no…wait. Suicide’s bad! Very, very bad!’

    The other irony is that by routinely murdering any terrorists they apprehended (see Bus 900), the Jews made suicide bombing logical. If you were sure to die anyway…

    The Jews have given up on the Masada cult. The Palestinians appropriated it. Bad Palestinians!

    • Agree: JimDandy
  32. @Zumbuddi

    ‘You, MM, OTOH — the term “Zionazi” makes as much sense as “Judeo-Christian.”

    ‘If you don’t realize that each entity is distinct, then you are scoring for the adversary.’

    But the similarities between the two ideologies are overwhelming. In fact, considered as abstractions, I’d be interested to see you differentiate between them.

    Consider Zionism’s great claim ‘after the Holocaust…’

    Now look at the opening frames of Triumph of the Will. ‘Sixteen years after Germany’s Passion…’

    • Replies: @Zumbuddi
  33. Zumbuddi says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    A project must be completed today, so have little time, hence abbreviated response.

    As I understand your claim, you say that since the same labels are applied to both Zionism and Nazism, they are the same.

    — If your claim is correct, then any such thing as “Holocaust” is an absurdity, the Null set.

    — The same labels can be applied to U.S.

    — What if the labels are applied inappropriately, mendaciously, even libelously?

    — I prefer to compare the particular contexts and actions of each actor, supported by evidence rather than rhetoric or discourse.

    In my exercise of that method, I perceive Zionism and Nazism to be not only radically different but also antithetical.

    Nazism was a lats-arriving short-lived defensive reaction by Germans to an attempted cultural, political and financial subversion by Zionized Jews of the German culture and way of life.

    I think this interpretation is important and helpful to understand how Zionists are executing a similar effort against the American people.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  34. Zumbuddi says:
    @Colin Wright

    — was going to add to reply to MM: Germans fought their own battles (they DID utilize non-German fighters, something like British use of sepoy), but for the most part, it was German blood shed in German wars.

    Not so for Zionist Jews: they fielded no armies to fight for Zionist ambitions, they induced others — the British, Americans, Russians, etc., — to pay for and bleed for Zionist “ideologies” and ambitions.

    Colin, analysis-by-timeline reduces to the whining of a schoolgirl your comparison of “Germany’s passion” to “the holocaust.”

    Riefenstahl referred to 1919, when the last of 800,000 German civilians were starved to death to force Germany to submit to Versailles Treaty.
    Nota bene, the suffering came BEFORE the defensive response.

    The Holocaust ™ on the other hand, (allegedly) occurred 1942 – 1945.
    — Zionists had already supplanted indigenous Arabs in Palestine to build Tel Aviv by 1910 — 30+ years BEFORE alleged holocaust ™.
    — The first Zionist Conference was in 1897 (or so), 40+ years BEFORE alleged holocaust ™.
    — Zionist Jews declared AND CARRIED ON economic warfare against Germany beginning in March 1933, nearly a decade BEFORE alleged holocaust ™.

    Among other differentiating character-istics: Germans tend to be honest to a fault; Zionists proclaim “Deception” to be a value of their ideology.

    • Agree: Ariadna
  35. @PabloSharkman

    If you’re going to quote Marx, you should at least give him credit.

  36. Skeptikal says:

    “Nazism was a lats-arriving short-lived defensive reaction by Germans to an attempted cultural, political and financial subversion by Zionized Jews of the German culture and way of life.”

    Established Jewish Germans revered German culture to a ridiculous extent, to the extent of being “more Catholic than the pope.” Many had distinguished military careers in the Great War. They saw themselves as members of the class of Bilderbuerger and upholders of the traditions of German bourgeois culture. Many didn’t even think of themselves as Jews—even by culture. Most had no interest in furthering Zionism or the Jewish state in Palestine.
    To the extent that many just couldn’t believe it was time to get out while they still could. Of course there was some support of Zionism in Jewish communities. Many Jews or some members of families did see Palestine as the future. But this was an issue of contention in established Jewish German communities/Gemeinden in larger cities such as Berlin. There were I think only ca. 500,000 Jews in Germany as of 1933. 150,000 in Berlin. Tiny proportion of the pop.

    The Nazis were very aware of this ambivalence or inability to face reality and used it to manage their image with the public somewhat. At the same time they just wanted the Jews to leave. The poorer Jews had no place to go. Many of them didnt “get the message” until fairly late in the game.

    Longtime Jewish German families who had been living in German cities for generations viewed themselves and their place in German society very differently from the way they viewed the Ostjuden who arrived in Berlin at the Schlesischer Bahnhof.

    Too many people think that the Third Reich = “Holocaust.”
    There was a lot going on in the prewar era after the Machtergreifung but before the annexation of Austria and the outbreak of war in Sept. 1939. Actually, quite a few political dissidents were still not completely against the Anschluss of Austria because they, too, believed in Greater Germany.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  37. BAP says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    The absolute majority of psychopaths in the west and Middle East are from the same ethnic group that jews and arabs belong to. This isn’t a coincidence, it’s a genetic mental illness without any possible solution.

    Concern trolling about racism, feminism, xenophobia, religion, economic systems… without caring about the terrible consequences of their ideas is one of their most well known tricks.

    • Replies: @Mulga Mumblebrain
  38. @Skeptikal

    Longtime Jewish German families who had been living in German cities for generations viewed themselves and their place in German society very differently from the way they viewed the Ostjuden who arrived in Berlin at the Schlesischer Bahnhof.

    Two groups of Jews.
    Viewed differently by each the other and also by Germans/the Third Reich and also by American Jews.

    As you wrote, Skeptikal, German Jews were quite comfortable in Germany.

    Historian Richard Wetzell has a racialist bug up his butt; he’s tried to make his bones arguing that “racism” was the major dynamo of National Socialism (Atzmon made a similar — and similarly stupid — claim at ~2.30 min.:

    “the issue that some of us had with Hitler — Hitler told people to identify with their biology. [Nobody’s really] upset with Hitler because he believed in national socialism. It was the racial — the racist element: the idea that people should identify with their biology.

    But Wetzell says that even the most influential “racial hygienist” who had Hitler’s ear claimed that intermarriage between German Jews and Germans was a good thing, and that German Jews were good for Germany, but not Jews from Eastern Europe (who had been parked in Germany by HIAS — we can know this from essays that relate how American and German Jews helped Ostjuden to get out of Russia and Poland and into Germany such as
    Waging relief: the politics and logistics of American Jewish war relief in Europe and the Near East (1914–1918) ).

    So — Germany wanted to keep its German Jews but get rid of Ostjuden,
    while American Jews wanted German Jews to leave Germany (primarily for Palestine where their wealth & skills were sorely needed) while Ostjuden were, presumably, supposed to remain the wards of Germany.

    Nobody wanted Ostjuden — not the zionist settlement in Palestine, which was run under eugenic principles established by Arthur Ruppin, against whose parameters for the “new Jew” Ostjuden fell short;
    Not Ireland,
    Not Poland,
    Not Britain,
    Not France,
    Not Italy.
    Not USA.
    Nobody wanted Eastern European Jews.

    On the other hand, American Jews — specifically, Louis Brandeis — wanted “all 587,000 German Jews to leave Germany.” Brandeis had to have been aware of the million or more Ostjuden in Germany in Feb. 1933 when he issued his directive, but he did not register the same concern for them.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @anon
  39. Skeptikal says:

    “Germany wanted to keep its German Jews but get rid of Ostjuden,”

    I don’t think this is quite right, either.
    “Germany” wasn’t sure what to do about its Jews—also the Jewish Germans.
    The Third Reich despearately needed money, and It wanted the Jews’ wealth. Many Jewish Germans had to buy their way out of Germany. And of course Aryanization transferred a lot of wealth to ethnic German hands. The original owners could just leave, thanks for leaving all of your money in Germany, and turn out the lights before you go.

    It is my impression from my reading that overt and active anti-semitism and anti-semitic actions really started in smaller towns in the provinces and from there spread to the larger Nazi apparatus. The Nazi hierarchy and Hitler did not want any “illegal” rogue actions started up by ignorant party Landsknechte such as local pogroms that were basically vendettas outside any legal framework. But Hitler hated Jews, no doubt about that. (First, though, he hated “deficient” Germans and acted on that hatred and passion to improve the German race and nation via the T4 program of euthanasia.) Throughout the thirties the Nazis were pushing the envelope against the Jews (and also political dissidents, but the latter had much more wiggle room) more and more, writing more and more laws to circumscribe daily life for Jews and “encourage” them to leave. Until basically after the Anschluss of Austria it was too late to leave.

    It is not clear to me why there was seemingly a sudden change, from encouraging Jews to leave the country to preventing them from doing so. (Perhaps it had been decided by that time that they were needed as slave labor. The Wannsee conference was not until 1942. The Germans were not going to make the mistake made in the American South, where it had become obvious to all that supporting a slave plus his family was a big waste of money compared to just feeding actual workers.) By ca. 1938–39 Jews were, say, confined to special buildings where they had to live under strict controls until they were transported to the East. You can see evidence of this progression very clearly in memoirs of life under the Third Reich such as Joachim Fest’s Not I and others.

    IMO the best way to get a sense of the reality of the imposition of Nazi totalitarianism is via memoirs. You can see the actual personalities, the “Karens” of the day who enforced compliance on the level of the city block, the malingerers who coped via passive aggression against the regime, the way actual people responded to the constant pressure to fall into line, the gradual acceptance of all of these measures by most people—BUT NOT ALL—and increasing willingness to see others punished for not going along (as we are seeing today with the vaxx coercion).

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  40. JimDandy says:

    Not a Jewish director. Jewish groups fought to cancel the film.

  41. @BAP

    ‘…it’s a genetic mental illness without any possible solution’. Go on, give it a go. I’m sure you have a final solution in you.

    • Replies: @anon
  42. @Skeptikal

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Skeptikal.

    Computer is acting up. I’ll respond once it straightens out.

    In short —

    1. “Germany wanted to keep its German Jews but get rid of Ostjuden,” — overstated. My bad.

    I wanted to make the point that the Third Reich’s leading “racial hygienist,” Eugen Fischer, openly held and advocated the position that GERMAN Jews contributed to the ‘making’ of the German people and were, and should remain, a part of the the population. This was from an eugenic standpoint. Hitler and NSDAP leadership did not disagree with this position; Fischer was not silenced, although he did encounter opposition, some of it strenuous, and did modify his position somewhat. (This information is from Richard Wetzell’s talk at Library of Congress, and his chapter in 2015 book on “Nazism as racial state”.)
    Fischer did not hold the same opinion toward Ostjuden, about a million of whom had been aided by HIAS to migrate into Germany from Poland and Russia (HIAS was founded in NYC in ~1917 for just this purpose).
    In 1935, Hans Luther, the German ambassador to US, echoed Fischer’s view: NSDAP “antisemitism” was NOT directed toward the “old Jewish families that had been part of Germany for many years,” Luther said but rather toward the Eastern European Jewish refugee/migrants and their subversive ideologies.

    This suggests to me that NSDAP / Hitler’s opposition to Jews in Germany was political & economic, perhaps cultural, but not “racial.” — Wetzell calls the difference between GERMAN Jews and Ostjuden “biological,” but I don’t know how that can be so — perhaps because GERMAN Jews intermarried with Germans and modified Jewish “biology,” whereas Ostjuden did not??

    2. Can you please provide sources for your interpretation of NSDAP actions toward Jews in the post-Weimar pre-war period?

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  43. Uncoy says: • Website
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    How many centuries back does active Zionism exist? In terms of the mirror image, it appears the Israelis adopted almost all of the mechanisms of state of the Third Reich.

    * second class citizens
    * concentration camps
    * the racially pure (Ashkenazi)
    * perpetual war
    * false flags
    * existential bullying (Samson Option)
    * blurred line between state security organs and private enterprise (Unit 9900, Unit 8200)

    The economic structure seems similar to fascism as well, with worker driven socialism mixed with extreme capitalism and a strong state.

    Who is the original and who is the copy?

  44. Skeptikal says:

    Thanks for the response re Nazi/Hitler attitudes toward Jews.

    Re “2. Can you please provide sources for your interpretation of NSDAP actions toward Jews in the post-Weimar pre-war period? ”

    I have done a ton of reading in this and also this is family history.
    Can you specify what you consider “my interpretation”?
    It is pretty well established that Jews who left Germany were able to do so if they acted in time. It is also well established that the German govt. needed money and the Jews were a source.
    There were a very few who managed to survive within the structures of the Nazi Party.

    You can start here.

    Just a small number. I don’t know why they have removed from the website many members’ stories.

    Also this:

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  45. anon[103] • Disclaimer says:

    For many years ,Jews and Christian used to worship in the same place ,into the same synagogue .The practice continued even after the Jesus had been handed over to the Romans . The split came later and was entirely hastened by the conflicts with Rome.

  46. anon[103] • Disclaimer says:

    Waging relief: the politics and logistics of American Jewish war relief in Europe and the Near East (1914–1918) ), the article doesn’t support your conclusion anything about choices over the fates of Ostjuden or the relief agency playing any favorite.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  47. anon[103] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mulga Mumblebrain

    You mean the race and its master who devised the system of the global war on terror ! I limited myself to a period of 20 years .Some cant’ count beyond 20 .

  48. @Skeptikal

    It is also well established that the German govt. needed money and the Jews were a source.

    Is the implication that German Jews bought their way out of Germany?
    I agree that the German gov. needed money, especially in view of the Jewish economic boycott of German exports that continued until about 1940. I disagree with claims that the quid pro quo of the Transfer Agreement was the cessation of the economic boycott in exchange for allowing German Jews to leave Germany under a constrained financial arrangement: according to a biography of Samuel Untermyer, the key driver of the boycott, Untermyer pursued the boycott until shortly before his death in March 1940.

    In The Transfer Agreement Edwin Black quoted a passage from Rabbi Stephen Wise’s autobiography, The Challenging Years. Wise recorded that “within a fortnight of Der Fuhrer’s appointment as chancellor” [that is, by Feb. 14, 1933] Louis Brandeis said to Wise, “I urge that all Jews must leave Germany.”

    Wise responded, “How shall all 587,000 German Jews be removed from Germany?”
    Brandeis waved aside the query: “No [German] Jew should remain in Germany. Let Germany share the fate of Spain.”

    Black explains, extensively, that German Jews were needed to migrate to Palestine: the Jewish project there was facing bankruptcy, and only GERMAN Jews had the wealth demanded by the British for entry into Palestine. Black observes that, in the midst of the worldwide Depression, as a result of migration of German Jews to Palestine, the Jewish enclave there became the wealthiest in the world.

    The situation was a push-pull: NSDAP wanted Jews to leave Germany because they were taking positions of employment and education from German citizens (but especially, based on a comment by German ambassador to US Hans Luther, NSDAP was especially eager that East European Jews leave: according to a May 26, 1933 article in the Jewish Telegraphic Agency Luther said:

    “Prejudice against the Jews, he said, was due to their tendency toward movements of a communistic nature, and to the fact that nearly fifty percent of the government officails have been Jews, although the total Jewish population was only one percent. He denied emphatically that there had been any “atrocities”. . . .
    He asserted that limitation of Jewish influence in Germany was being conducted with the greatest possible consideration toward the old native Jewish families who, he said; had proven themselves good Germans and indicated that it was directed against the Eastern European Jews who had overflooded the country since the War.”

    The distinction between “old native Jewish families” and “Eastern European Jews who had overflowed the country since the war” is noteworthy, and is reflected in Wise’s mention of a precise number of Jews — “587,000,” a number that did not include the tens of thousands of Eastern European Jews that HIAS had aided to migrate to Germany.
    Among other things, the case of Herschel Grynszpan bears witness to the fraught situation of Polish migrants in Germany —

  49. @anon

    Yes, I agree that the cited article does not specifically state that HIAS aided Ostjuden to migrate to Germany; it is concerned with the sources of funds used to aid Polish and Russian Jews.

    Several years ago I researched the topic extensively and acquired articles and photos of American-based Jewish aid groups who assisted Ostjuden to migrate from Poland to Germany. Those notes and photos are on a long-dead computer and a long-lost backup drive.

  50. @monopduly

    Renowned theologian N.T. Wright points to 1st century, 2nd Temple Judaism, as ‘the many Judaisms, all of which were Messianic.

    The many Judaisms mentioned in your entry is similar to the many, widely variant Christian churches that exist today. Just as today differing beliefs gather together in small groups, and indeed large groups, there is no reason to believe that the time of the early Christians was any different. With many differing interpretations of each basic theme.

    The Jews, a contentious crowd, being subjected to the Roman yoke would have been even more contentious. How can a group of people who believe they are the chosen of God be subjected to a bunch of barbarians like the Romans? Obviously somebody was a great sinner.

    That was always the explanation for previous disasters. Plagues, starvation, slavery, bondage, disease. The explanation was always that somebody had not worshipped God properly when he said his nightly prayers or some other such nonsense.

    These contradictions between reality and the teachings of the wise men had to be resolved. If you are really the chosen of God, Creator of the universe, then you should really be running the show. How then to explain the Romans.

    I think your answer is correct. It is simply biology. And indeed Darwin’s theory of evolution requires that there be a variability in every generation. The success of one species opens up an opportunity for predation. And symbiosis.

    A recent example is the proliferation of human beings traveling about the globe in airplanes making it possible for the latest virus to spread itself throughout the entirety of humanity.

    Predators don’t necessarily have to look like an eagle. They can look like a virus. All that’s necessary is a niche. A warm comfortable place to expand, to grow, and to live.

    There exists, has always existed, a Human Intraspecifc Social Parasite (HISP) , that employs ‘Phenotypic Manipulation’ to pervert culturally protective values of its host.

    This needs greater explanation. Predator/Prey relationships have always existed. Indeed they form part of the environment that determines, to a great extent, survivors in the ongoing battle to procreate.

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