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Back in the 1960s, the British academic establishment was rather excited about the work of Karl Popper, the philosopher who developed the concept of empirical falsification. Popper was keen to define the demarcation between the scientific and that which only mimics empiricism and scientism. A theory, according to Popper, can be considered scientific if, and only if, it is potentially falsifiable by experiments or its predictions. Popper attempted to create criteria that would deny psychoanalysis, Marxism and astrology any scientific status based on the fact that these theories are not falsifiable.

One may wonder what Popper would have to say about the ‘science’ of Neil Ferguson, the man who predicted up to 550.000 Coronavirus dead in the UK and 2.2 million dead in the USA.

On 29 April, Off-Guardian published what I believe to be the most insightful criticism of the lockdown policy so far. In the article Iain Davis digs into the work or shall we say, blunders, he attributes to Ferguson. Davis writes, “both Public Health England (PHE) and the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) were satisfied that COVID-19 (C19) presented a ‘low risk’ of mortality and downgraded it from the status of a High Consequence Infectious Disease (HCID) on March 19th. The ACDP board members include Professor Neil Ferguson from Imperial College. Presumably Prof. Ferguson was among the dissenting voices on the ACDP board as he completely ignored the majority opinion of his scientific colleagues.”

There is nothing wrong in holding a dissenting scientific view, however, this specific ‘dissenting view’ and the way it was implemented by the UK and the USA governments appears to have led America, Britain and the rest of the world to respond in a way that created a catastrophe of a previously unknown scale.

“In an interview on 13th February, widely reported by the mainstream media ,” Davis writes, “he (Ferguson) stated his predictive models were ‘not absurd.’ He said that infection rates of 60% of the population with a 1% mortality rate were possible. Standing by his prediction of 400,000 C19 deaths in the UK. The Imperial College computer model report was released to the public on 16th March, predicting huge numbers of deaths from C19. By the 19th March Prof. Ferguson must have known a majority of his peers disagreed with him.”

Davis points out that Ferguson failed to implement the most basic of scientific procedures, namely allowing a peer review of his ‘predictions,’ making sure that one or more people with similar competence in epidemiology evaluate what we now know to have been the grossly exaggerated Imperial College models and predictions.

Davis reveals that “when it comes to wildly inaccurate predictions Prof. Ferguson’s work at Imperial College has a long and distinguished history. In 2002, he said that (up to) 50,000 people in the UK would die from ‘mad cow disease’, to date less than 200 have passed away; he predicted 200 million global deaths from the H5N1 bird flu. Currently it is a suspected factor in the deaths of 455 people world wide; in 2009 he told the UK Government that 65,000 could die from swine flu in the UK and worked with the World Health Organisation to predict millions of deaths from the H1N1 global flu pandemic*.”

You may ask what kind of scientists are mistaken in their predictions by factors of 200 or more? What kind of an academic institution would provide such a scientist with a platform, let alone having him lead a department? And the questions go far deeper. Davis writes, “while Prof. Ferguson and his Imperial College colleagues have been consistently wrong they have also been unquestioningly believed by governments and intergovernmental bodies on every occasion. Seemingly without reservation. Despite the clear evidence to the contrary, policy makers from all political parties have shown tremendous loyalty to Imperial College’s silly data models. In doing so, they have not only ignored the researchers’ woeful history of failed predictions but have also denied the scientific evidence which usually contradicts them.”

Davis is not alone. On April 28th F. William Engdahl expressed very similar concerns re Neil Ferguson, his reputation and his past ‘models.’ “In 2005,” Engdahl writes, “Ferguson claimed that up to 200 million (!) people worldwide would be killed by bird-flu or H5N1. By early 2006, the WHO had only linked 78 deaths to the virus.”

I am not in any position to assess the true danger to us of C19 or our response to it. But simple common sense tells us that the only reliable scientific fact about our British leading epidemiologist team is the uncomfortable fact that it has often been wrong and by a huge margin.

In an unreserved manner Engdahl suggests that, “the same Ferguson group at Imperial College, with WHO endorsement, was behind the panic numbers that triggered a UK government lockdown. Ferguson was also the source of the wild ‘prediction’ that 2.2 million Americans would likely die if immediate lockdown of the US economy did not occur. Based on the Ferguson model, Dr Anthony Fauci of NIAID reportedly confronted President Trump and pressured him to declare a national health emergency. Much as in the UK, once the damage to the economy was begun, Ferguson’s model later drastically lowered the US fatality estimates to between 100,000 to 200,000 deaths. In both US and UK cases Neil Ferguson relied on data from the Chinese government, data which has been shown as unreliable.

How would Neil Ferguson and his Imperial College group score on Popper’s falsifiability test? Not well.

ORDER IT NOW

In Popperian terms, what Ferguson and his Imperial College team produce has little to do with science, as it does not even attempt to produce a clear criteria for falsification. ‘Predictions’ of ‘possible’ death that fluctuate widely from 50-200.000 in the case of Mad Cow Disease or from 20.000 -500.000 in the case of C19 cannot be considered ‘falsifiable’ scientifically as the range is too broad to validate one theoretical calculative model over another. The models at play, so it seems, include too many ‘if’ variables, possibly to cover their author’s reputation rather than to produce something that resembles a verifiable prediction.

The next question is why anyone in Britain or the USA takes such ‘science’ seriously. One wonders what is it that has led Britain and its academia to lose touch with the core scientific ethos?

As upsetting as it may be for some progressives, even Donald Trump/White House’s Corona model is more reliable and scientific than the numerical exercise produced by Britain’s most prestigious academic institute.

Yet despite the fact that Imperial College and Ferguson have apparently pulled Britain and the USA into total financial chaos and of a humongous magnitude, Imperial College is still open for business. In spite of the disaster it inflicted on the world it still describes itself as “a global top ten university with a world-class reputation in science, engineering, business and medicine.” I believe that not many academic institutes could compete with Imperial College in inflicting global scientific disasters. To the best of my knowledge, Imperial College’s epidemiology team has yet to be questioned by law enforcement about the theoretical grounds and the evidence at the core of its phantasmic predictions.

Engdahl reports that “Neil Ferguson and his modelling group at Imperial College, in addition to being backed by WHO, receive millions from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Ferguson heads the Vaccine Impact Modelling Consortium at Imperial College which lists as its funders the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and the Gates-backed GAVI-the vaccine alliance. From 2006 through 2018 the Gates Foundation has invested an impressive $184,872,226.99** into Ferguson’s Imperial College modelling operations.”

In 2002, Arnold S. Relman, then a professor of medicine at Harvard University suggested that ‘’the medical profession is being bought by the pharmaceutical industry, not only in terms of the practice of medicine, but also in terms of teaching and research. The academic institutions of this country [USA] are allowing themselves to be the paid agents of the pharmaceutical industry. I think it’s disgraceful.’’

Maybe, judging Ferguson, Imperial College or any other ‘scientific’ institution in Popperian terms misses the point. What matters to such academic institutions is the amount they can amass from oligarchs, industries, bankers and corporations. This raises the question, what do they give in return? We are basically dealing with Western civilization prostituting its prime intellectual asset, namely its scientific ethos.

If there is a lesson to be drawn from the C19 crisis at this stage, it is that universities, academia and science must be separated from all forms of mammon and mammonites. The word ‘university’ is derived from the Latin word universitas meaning: the whole, total, the universe, the world. Universitas were initially communities of teachers and scholars committed to knowledge and its seeking rather than an extended apparatus attached to pharmaceutical conglomerates, food chains, bankers and other symptoms of the capitalist universe.

For Western civilization to survive it must reinstate its Athenian roots and its commitment to truth seeking. We should, once again learn to differentiate and understand the crude tension between science and technology, between those who unveil the concealed and those who act to appropriate nature and turn every possible occurrence, including corona virus, into a money making machine.

One great philosopher put a lot of work into the understanding of the tension between science and technology or shall we say, between truth and its instrumentalization. I am referring to Martin Heidegger, the philosopher the Guardians of Judea do not think you should pay any attention to.

In my next article I will examine the role of Imperial College and its C19 ‘epidemiology’ in light of the prophecy left to us by Heidegger’s legacy.

*To read another detail account of Neil Ferguson’s prediction history read The Ferguson Effect by Scott Johnson

** GA: though I have seen references to this sum repeatedly mentioned on different outlets, I see the need to mention that I myself didn’t see any official reference that indicates that this number is actually genuine.

(Republished from Gilad Atzmon by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Ideology, Science • Tags: Academia, Coronavirus, Disease, Sweden 
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  1. anon[185] • Disclaimer says:

    Thanks. There is no punishment too severe for pro-hysteria, pro-lockdown scum.

  2. Ferguson’s maths is advised by the mathematical modelling team at the University of East Anglia. The models created by the UEA climatology team with help from the same group were some of the earliest and most climatologist’s have built their models on the same basis. The UEA was, you may remember, the centre of the Climategate scandal. Withholding code or data is à characteristic of these groups.

    The use of failed, alarmist models in observational sciences as tools for political decisions needs to be called into question.

    • Agree: Popeye, Jett Rucker
    • Thanks: Gilad Atzmon
    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @niteranger
  3. Adrian E. says:

    1. In the whole text, I don‘t see any concrete argument why the model by Imperial College was wrong. We don’t know what would have happened if everything including mass gatherings had continued and R0 had been around 3 for a longer time. Of course, I don’t have a strong argument for claiming that model is what would have happened. But it is certainly a big problem if strong measures are taken in order to prevent X, X really doesn’t happen and then, people say these measures were not necessary because X did not happen.

    2. People who are against lockdowns often pretend it is only the lockdowns that cause economic damage, but of course, it is obvious that both proscribed closures and voluntary behavior changes have economic effects. In Switzerland, taxis and hotels were allowed to continue operating (while restaurants and many kinds of shops had to close), but taxis and hotels have almost no customers. Likewise, also in Sweden, even though most behavior changes are voluntary (and COVID-19relatwed deaths relative to population size are several times higher han in the other Scandinavian countries), strong negative economic effects are also expected – people just following recommendations for distancing also consume much less in many areas.

    3. Often we see the idea that we must find some compromise between containing the spread of the virus and keeping the economy going. The idea is that the virus should not spread too fast because that would be a problem for the health system, but if the spread of the virus is suppressed too much that means too much damage for the economy, so we must let the virus spread to some degree. I don’t think there is good evidence for this point of view that is often taken as if it was self-evident. An overall assessment will only be possible after the end of the pandemic, but so far, it looks very plausible that the East Asian countries (as well as Australia and New Zealand) that acted quickly and effectively to suppress the spread of the virus as much as possible have much less economic damage than the countries in Europe and North America that hesitated and looked for a compromise between letting the virus spread, but still slowing the spread.

  4. Tony Hall says:

    This raises the question, what do they give in return? We are basically dealing with Western civilization prostituting its prime intellectual asset, namely its scientific ethos.

    If there is a lesson to be drawn from the C19 crisis at this stage, it is that universities, academia and science must be separated from all forms of mammon and mammonites. The word ‘university’ is derived from the Latin word universitas meaning: the whole, total, the universe, the world. Universitas were initially communities of teachers and scholars committed to knowledge and its seeking rather than an extended apparatus attached to pharmaceutical conglomerates, food chains, bankers and other symptoms of the capitalist universe.

    Once again Gilad comes up with a lively, thoughtful and strategically vital contribution to public discourse. Well done Gilad.

    But… taking into account the possible charge that I can be accused of grinding my own ax, I’m disappointed that Gilad didn’t include in his list of major butchers of the scientific method at universities a clear reference to the Israel Lobby. From what I can see from inside the academy– and technically I’m still there post-retirement as Professor Emeritus— the destruction wrought to institutions of higher learning by the likes of the Gates gang has been far less devastating than the massive array of Israeliocentric operations whose perpetrators include astroturf groups on campus.

    These groups, many of which have been scrutinized by Aljazeera etc., are often helped along by the Israel government (including the office of the Israeli Prime Minister). These groups and their base stations (ADL and AIPAC, for example) have applied the fruits of much scientific study to Canary Mission-style wreckage of academic careers. They have made impossible anything like orderly evidence-based, science-based debate on a host of issues involving history, contemporary issues, and predictions of future history.

    The treatment even within the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn is a political extension of the savaging of the intellectual honesty in our institutions of higher learning. I wonder how the Israel Lobby operates at Imperial College, home of a crime that might well be part of the same complex of engineered manipulations identified by Gilad in his fantastic article, “A Viral Pandemic or a Crime Scene?”

    https://gilad.online/writings/2020/4/11/a-viral-pandemic-or-a-crime-scene

    As Gilad well knows, one of the most heavily policed subjects for the lobby targets academic consideration of the possibility of involvement by say Mossad or by Israel First partisans in, say, PNAC, in the big and ongoing psy op entailed in the perpetration, original misrepresentation and cover up of 9/11. Arguably the failure of our society to come to grips with this obvious deception opened up the trail that is now being paved, widened and streamlined into the Road to LOKIN-20. Of course LOKIN-20 is the devastation wrought by the manipulations of the lockdowns from Wuhan to London England etc etc etc.

    I’m sure there are many public intellectuals who actually know quite a bit about what did or didn’t happen before, during and after 9/11 and choose to play it safe. (Is Gilad one of those?) They avoid dealing with the topic. They say nothing too penetrating about it because its pretty clear there might be harsh consequences. And they’re right.

    The effect of the silences, however, is to leave those of us who do try to grapple with the evidence in academic and other settings way more exposed and endangered than we should be, than would be if there was a wider base of open discussion and debate on this matter. The time is long since past when the 9/11 case should have been solved and resolved given the huge body of citizens journalism (with the writings of profs sprinkled in) that has long ago discredited the official narrative. So now the ante has been upped in the new forms of enslavement and danger coming at us.

    As my case all-too-clearly demonstrates, the bastion of tenure has pretty much been destroyed and the protections of academic freedom are pretty much in tatters. Too few voices have been raised so far to insist that this damage in the academy must be rectified. Ergo, there is lots of blame to go around when it comes to the processes that have contributed to the decline of Universitas and the desecration of Western Civilization’s scientific ethos.

    Once again thank you, Gilad, for all you do for the advancement of truth, freedom and Justice.

  5. Maybe the budget crisis caused by COVID will be so bad that the UK government cuts any contribution to the place to 0. We can hope.

  6. Another denier thinking he’s all radical and outside the box when all he’s saying is what his owners want him to say.

    • Disagree: Jett Rucker
    • Replies: @Druid
  7. Jake says:

    “In 2002, Arnold S. Relman, then a professor of medicine at Harvard University suggested that ‘’the medical profession is being bought by the pharmaceutical industry, not only in terms of the practice of medicine, but also in terms of teaching and research. The academic institutions of this country [USA] are allowing themselves to be the paid agents of the pharmaceutical industry. I think it’s disgraceful.’’

    Amen

    • Agree: Gilad Atzmon
  8. Jake says:

    “One great philosopher put a lot of work into the understanding of the tension between science and technology or shall we say, between truth and its instrumentalization. I am referring to Martin Heidegger, the philosopher the Guardians of Judea do not think you should pay any attention to.”

    Several years ago, but in this century, I was giving a talk in bookstore. A person in the audience began causing trouble maybe 3 minutes into my speaking. I assumed from what he said that he was from either the SPLC or the ADL. The one thing that surprised me was that my reference to Heidegger was met by the trouble maker first with a shocked look and then a recoiling, like Dracula backing away from a person might produce a Crucifix. He got up and went behind a bookshelf and made a cell phone call.

    Just a brief mention of Heidegger had upset him greatly, enough that he had to call to get reassurance or advice.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  9. @Adrian E.

    This article examines Ferguson caricature science in the light of Popper’s Falsification Principle.. I didn’t bother to prove how ridiculous Ferguson’s models are as the number of dead worldwide is about half of what he predicted for the UK…

    In fact there are more and more scientists that are convinced that it was the late lockdown that led to the disasters in NY, London and Bergamo..

    Science is an attempt to produce truthful statements about the world. Science is examined by facts and predictions … Ferguson and his team do not fit into this category ..

  10. @Tony Hall

    Tx for your kind words Tony … you are right I didn’t mention Israel and it’s Lobby in an article about fake Corona science BUT there is something I did and will keep doing..

    The Corona crisis is not new to us. It is a repetition of a pattern we have been seeing all along, whether it is 911, neocon wars, Israel the Lobby, cultural wars, PC, history laws.

    In an attempt to deal with the above I reinstated the Athens vs Jerusalem discourse..

    Fauci, FB, Ferguson, Pompeo, Sanders, ADL etc. are different manifestations of Jerusalem.

    While Athens teach us how to think for ourselves, Jerusalem tells us what to think and what not to say… tine to choose …

    • Agree: geokat62
    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  11. @Jake

    They are desperate to remove Heidegger from our libraries and the intellectual discourse in general..why? because Heidegger reminded us about the forgetfulness of Being. Is not the Corona crisis is the ultimate embodiment of this forgetfulness?

    They want to make us into Anne Franks hiding in attics from an merciless nazi virus… this time we don’t wait for the Americans to land in Normandy and liberate us. We will have to make sure it is truth that sets us free..

    • Replies: @Mark Gobell
    , @obwandiyag
  12. anon[161] • Disclaimer says:
    @Adrian E.

    Excellent comment, thank you. I’m sure the recognition (gold border) came from Ron, and not the ever dissembling Atzmon

    .

    • Replies: @Herald
  13. @Adrian E.

    Only 1 question……Is your paycheck still coming during the lock down?

    I find with almost 99% accuracy that when that answer is “yes” those asked agree and support the lock down and when that answer is no 0% support said lock down……

    Innovation has completely stalled to where all that matters is the accumulation of more money……too much money in too few hands and all we get is big pharma running everything having to do with healthcare from research to education.

    The world economy has been monopolized and in this scenario if you aren’t part of the machine YOU are the enemy…

    • Replies: @David
  14. Druid says:
    @obwandiyag

    The idjut resurfaces!

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
  15. geokat62 says:
    @Adrian E.

    1. In the whole text, I don‘t see any concrete argument why the model by Imperial College was wrong.

    Best explanation of where the Imperial College London model went off the rails is an article written by the Cato Institute.

    Excerpts from, How One Model Simulated 2.2 Million U.S. Deaths from COVID-19:

    Neither the high infection rate nor the high [infection] fatality rate holds up under scrutiny…

    In short, the Imperial College projection that 81% of the U.S. population could be infected if everyone just did literally nothing to protect themselves or others is inconsistent with rational risk avoidance, history and recent experience. Even with a much smaller percentage infected, however, deaths could still end up extremely high if nearly 1% of those infected died, as the Ferguson team assumed…

    Epidemiologists have since found growing evidence that the number of undetected cases with few symptoms or none is much larger than merely doubling the small number of known and tested cases. A review of such research by the Oxford University Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine finds “a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.36%.” A middling estimate of 0.22% would by itself reduce the infamous 2.2 million death estimate to half a million even if 81% were somehow infected.

    https://www.cato.org/blog/how-one-model-simulated-22-million-us-deaths-covid-19

    • Agree: niceland
  16. With all due respect I do not see any practical use of these predictions. Maybe to scare a people a little bit into compliance.
    In my opinion WHO failed really miserably. They are a bunch of do nothings with exorbitant salaries.
    There were too many skeptics around , which is excusable but WHO being skeptic is inexcusable.

    • Replies: @Wally
  17. thordaddy says:

    “Saving lives” is not falsifiable for one is invoking miracles in the deepest sense.

    Bought, boldly bad predictions versus controversial death tolls does not make for a heroic narrative of “saving lives,” either.

    If the metric is “science” then the efficacy of “lockdown” is with certain “make tricks.”

    Reality is being “doctored” from head to toe.

  18. Hail says: • Website

    while Prof. Ferguson and his Imperial College colleagues have been consistently wrong they have also been unquestioningly believed by governments and intergovernmental bodies on every occasion

    Dr. Knut Wittkowski on Ferguson:

    “The number of 2.2M […] Frankenson pulled out of his hat [and] got everybody scared” (Wittkowski on what caused the victory of the pro-Panic side, writing April 21).

    “The point of decision (at least in the US) was around March 10-15. At this time, there should have been a discussion involving epidemiologists who could question the Frankenssonian predictions. If that discussion would have had, we would not have had a shutdown” (Wittkowski on when experts should have been consulted, instead of being sidelined).

    “Let your representative know that (s)he is not going to be re-elected if (s)he supports politics that cause unemployment and bankruptcies of small companies – for no reason other than Neil Frankensson’s imaginary horror scenario of ‘2,200,000 deaths in the US’. It’s not even close anywhere, irrespective of lockdown or not” (Knut Wittkowski on how to politically protest the Lockdown-fanatics/demagogues in political office).

    ____________

    You notice that Wittkowski, the protege of the man who coined the term “R-Naught” (R0), calls Ferguson “Doctor Frankensson,” because of Ferguson’s similarity to the horror novel’s Doctor Frankenstein. Both the horror-novel character and the Imperial College man of our time created monsters.

    • Agree: SteveK9
  19. @Adrian E.

    A model is a speculation about some thing, with some decided upon, limited number of degrees of freedom. A model does not take into account all degrees of freedom that exist, otherwise it would be the real thing.

    Even with a correct morbidity for the virus, R0 changes – the myriad degrees of freedom that determine how people will act are not taken into account. How do you determine the rate of handwashing, for an X% morbidity virus? Even my 4 year old when outside doesn’t touch surfaces, doesn’t poke things in the supermarket out of curiosity anymore, and washes his hands and face with soap when back.

    As you say in 2, leave the economy open, people will still change their behaviour – if 95% of the population is uncomfortable to go to restaurants, that is a degree of freedom your model must take into account. If they don’t go to gyms, don’t take taxis, don’t take public transport.. All are correlated, so you may simplify it into one variable, but then your model becomes simple, and will be more prone to error.

    The population is not a static entity upon which some virus acts, they interact dependently, and this dependence is almost impossible to model – did the paper have a degree of freedom for average minimum distance a person would approach others when outside? It’s just endless, and why infered truths are not part of the verifiable faith of the scientific method of observation/measurement, as Popper described, but part of the new unverifiable faith of Science – a thing much similar to the old faiths. My doctor friends who submit to Science say “trust experts” – how is that different from “trust prophets”?

    It is good to be cautious if it is an unknown unknown, like it was for China, but by the time it was reaching the west one or two months later, more targeted policy should have been taken. Here is an article from end of Feb, of an early study from China, https://www.statista.com/chart/20860/coronavirus-fatality-rate-by-age/?fbclid=IwAR0rmVG3XpBEcbmZspya5XTbx0s9dI6ZcF45myUAdx4_hNtgyqLLSaX_3Rc, the bar chart is key, because it shows that even if you took the data as it was, and ignored the likelyhood of many asymptomatic cases, that couldn’t then be seen without an antibody test, you would see that you would only quarantine the elderly – 0.2% for the working population is not enough to panic, we don’t do that for flus every season.

    Australia and NZ have population densities like 12th century England btw. You drive 50km to get between hamlets in NZ. As first world nations with excellent healthcare systems, even if they weren’t prepared for a pandemic like the rest of the west, it would be shocking if they failed with that starting condition.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @YetAnotherAnon
  20. Hail says: • Website
    @Adrian E.

    I don‘t see any concrete argument why the model by Imperial College was wrong

    It’s a good question to ask, and while there are a lot of concrete arguments, the simplest and most obvious is: Sweden.

    If you read the Imperial College paper, you see that Ferguson proposed TWO basic scenarios, one his hypothetical Do Nothing (which you reference), and one a moderate-measures scenario, which looks a lot like the Swedish model, which treated this flu-strain as a usual peak-flu-event, not something apocalyptic.

    I created a graph of the two Ferguson predictions applied to Sweden (using Ferguson’s US deaths curve as Sweden and the US have comparable pop.-densities which was a factor in his March 16 “guesstimates”), graphed alongside the actual, observed coronavirus-positive deaths in Sweden to date:

    (From Against the Corona Panic, Pt. VII: Sweden’s vindication is complete; Graphing the actual coronavirus epidemic in Sweden against the pro-Panic side’s wild projections.)

    (See also the zoomed-in graph of Sweden’s corona-positive deaths and ICU-intakes, showing the early-mid April peak and sustained decline since then, in line with epidemiological theory.)

    The Sweden-style Stay Open model with limited measures in place to protect the vulnerable is now very obviously what we all should have done.

    As we are now so far into it, with Sweden’s epidemic curves all now on the sustained decline, we can now discard the models and look at observed-reality. The anti-Panic side’s case is now definitely correct. The doom-sayers were wrong. Simple as that. They cost us a lot.

    • Agree: Brewer, SteveK9
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  21. @Gilad Atzmon

    I would just say that the scientific method is not about producing truths, but about ranking theories according to how much of the data they explain, and discarding the ones that are less explanatory, it is about finding untruths, so to say.

    Truth is 100%, but a hypothesis test can only approach 100%, because your sample size is always smaller than the population size. Any model still remains a mind made veil of experience, however accurate.

    And not even discarding always – Newtonian mechanics is much less explicative than general relativity when it comes to motion, but for low energy physics, it is computationally cheaper, and is good enough for a lot of models.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
    , @Emslander
  22. Hail says: • Website
    @Gilad Atzmon

    it was the late lockdown that led to the disasters in NY, London and Bergamo

    In the case of NYC and London in particular, and I believe Madrid and few other places, we know that excess deaths attributable to the Panic greatly outnumber coronavirus deaths. The number in NYC is at least two to one: For every coronavirus-attributable excess death, there are more than two corona-negative or coronavirus-positive-but-not-a-cause-of-death excess deaths.

    It turns out that when you terrify everyone, people don’t seek usual medical treatment and many die unnecessarily. Ironic, sad, and something close to criminal IMO, given how unnecessary the (ongoing) Corona-Panic was.

    IOW: The Lockdown may have caused more deaths even in the immediate term than it prevented, a policy disaster of a magnitude I wouldn’t have believed possible; really more of an Alex Jones scenario of arbitrary martial law under some thin pretext.

    • Agree: SteveK9
  23. @Gilad Atzmon

    So, you are arguing that Ferguson’s model of coronavirus transmission is a) unfalsifiable and b) demonstrably false?

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  24. Alfred says:

    This whole caboodle was planned years in advance. Where the infection started and whether it was man-made or not is interesting – but that is not the main point. The media were primed for it – just like for 9/11.

    The fact that Google, YouTube and Facebook are promoting a certain viewpoint and removing alternatives that are not to their liking is proof that this whole thing was well-organized. Censorship and propaganda does work. People are too lazy or busy to study things for themselves. Also, they are keen to conform.

    I went to Imperial College twice in the 1960’s and 1970’s. My older brother also went there and got two degrees. Later, he went to HBS. He was the youngest ever VP of the World Bank. My father went to the Royal School of Mines – which is a part of IC – before and after WW2. Before WW1, my grandfather went to London’s Kings College – he also attended Geology lectures at the RSM. None of my generation’s 8 kids are going there.

    The amazing thing for me is that despite its location and the undoubted talent of its students, absolutely nothing of any significance has come out of it that is internet-related. It is like a time-capsule for an Empire that no longer exists. When my grandfather went there, England controlled much of the world. Much of that wealth was sold for pennies on the dollar to American banks during WW1.

    Today, England has a prime minister who gets his orders from elsewhere. When forced to change the herd immunity policy advocated by his advisors, he pretends to have caught the infection himself and that his life was saved by the dedication of the doctors and nurses of the NHS. Even Prince Charles was enrolled into this scam. The father of prince Charles is reputed to be high up in the Masonic Order. He visited Imperial College when I was there.

    Boris Johnson, like his hero Winston Churchill, is a scumbag and a liar.

    Humble NHS nurses ‘Jenny and Luis’ brush off Boris Johnson’s praise for staying at his ‘ICU bedside for 48 hours when things could have gone either way’ and return to work – as their family tell of their pride at pair who helped save the PM

    • Replies: @GeeBee
  25. anon[161] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    “….convinced that it was the late lockdown that led to the disasters…”

    Duh. It’s called closing the barn door after the horse has fled.

    Miko told me you were an idiot, but it’s much worse. You’re a spinner of mind-webs, a distractor, a confuser, and a colossal waste of time. Limited hangout, much.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  26. Wally says:
    @Zarathustra

    – Communist WHO protecting Communist China, simple as that.

    – And definitely to ‘scare people into compliance’ via lies.

    – Scare them enough that they yield to government interference and control of most aspects of their lives.

    -IOW, scare them enough with lies that they welcome Communism.

    recommended:
    Seven-Step Path from Pandemic to Totalitarianism: https://principia-scientific.org/seven-step-path-from-pandemic-to-totalitarianism/#comment-35643

    A Wizard of Oz Virus: The COVID-19 Hoax: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/05/a_wizard_of_oz_virus_the_covid19_hoax.html

    • Replies: @Zarathustra
  27. “what Ferguson and his Imperial College team produce has little to do with science”

    That makes Ferguson’s bloviations perfect for politicians because what they have done in response has little to do with stopping a pandemic.

  28. Alfred says:
    @Philip Owen

    The UEA was, you may remember, the centre of the Climategate scandal.

    In Australia, the Bureau of Meteorology has changed or deleted data from the 19th century that proves that the habitable parts of Australia, at that time, experienced higher temperatures. They have been very active in promoting the “Global Warming” and “Drought” stories for many years. They even blamed the recent fires on “Climate Change” – Australia had 10% of its current forest cover in these areas when the Aboriginals managed the land. The fake Greens stopped backburning for some 30 years and there could only be one outcome.

    Melbourne built a giant water desalination plant that was never used.

    Here is the current situation in Melbourne

    Melbourne marks wettest April since 1960 as snow blankets ski resorts

    It is obvious to me that big money is behind these synchronized charades. 🙁

  29. @Adrian E.

    “1. In the whole text, I don‘t see any concrete argument why the model by Imperial College was wrong”

    That’s because the article didn’t intend to lay out an argument showing why the model is wrong. The article illustrates how Ferguson pushed his model into view for the politicians who were the target of the study. His methods are unscientific besides being dishonest, and he has a history of this kind of behavior. That is the point of the article, which you ignore in making your comment.

    Of course, you didn’t mean “why the model was wrong”, you meant “how the model is wrong”. Your inability to express your view coherently aids a reader in seeing that your conclusions are also incoherent.

    • Agree: Brewer
  30. Uradel666 says:

    Analytic Philosophy, seriously? Are you kidding?

    “A theory, according to Popper, can be considered scientific if, and only if, it is potentially falsifiable by experiments or its predictions”.

    1. If Popper’s inference can be itself considered scientific then his inference is scientific if, and only if, it is potentially (now definitely) falsifiable by experiments. If Popper’s inference becomes itself falsifiable (to determine its grounds) by experiments then it is scientific; but if Popper’s inference is scientific then we are not able to establish it because “falsifiable” is established to be false. If it is not falsifiable then Popper’s inference is still falsifiable and therefore scientific. The contradiction is implanted in this his inference and therefore is not consonant to law of logic, and therefore not scientific. On the very next logic operation this inference falls into two opposite groups which we are not able to draw the necessary conclusions of. This criterion fails to use its own approach;

    2. If you want be a smart, cute and handsome then DO NOT use Analytic Philosophy. Analytic Philosophy is itself not Philosophy but Educational Psychology used in Anglophone Countries to teach stupid undergraduates. In other words, it is Liberal Propaganda i.e. Anglo-Zionist Crap;

    3. Analytic Philosophy had been developed by contrast to the Logic. It is appeal for the Reason but it is not the Reason itself;

    4. Bertrand Russell, L. Wittgenstein, R. Carnap, H. Reichenbach, R. McKay Rorty, F. Frege and all that sort of rot are the Intelligent Bullshitters and intellectual garbage. Their Moto is “the tongue of idle persons is never idle”.

    5. They are similar in thinking to Orthodox Jews, a scream of a bunch, sitting on top of American taх payers;

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  31. Alfred says:

    If you are ever in doubt at to what those who run the West want you to believe, take a look at Australian newspapers. Here is a gem.

    Bill Gates donates $10m to Australian trial of immune-boosting vaccine

    The article never mentions that previous attempts to create a vaccine for another coronavirus resulted in dead monkeys. No successful vaccine for any of the hundreds of coronaviruses has ever been made. Anyway, Covid-19 will soon be replaced by something different. According to the CDC’s probably optimistic numbers (they profit from vaccines), the flu vaccine works only 19-60% of the time.

    The article contains this which is at attempt to denigrate the success of Professor Didier Raoult. In this fake “trial”, they used terminally ill patients.

    The stockpiling of anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine alarmed Australian authorities in March, after early but limited evidence of its effectiveness against COVID-19 led to US President Donald Trump spruiking its potential. Trials have since shown the drug to be potentially harmful.

    It seems that Australia had to pay a ransom to get the fake media off the back of its prime minister. They were very critical of him, like of Boris Johnson, when he initially did not follow the script.

    Prime Minister Scott Morrison pledged $352 million on Monday towards a $12.5 billion worldwide COVID-19 research fund arranged by the World Health Organisation

    Here is the world’s best epidemiologist. Shame he possibly never looked down a microscope. 🙁

  32. Brewer says:
    @Adrian E.

    So the kid was clicking his fingers.
    “Why are you clicking your fingers” I inquired.
    “To keep the tigers away”, he replied.
    “But there are no tigers in England” I said.
    “See how well it works” he said.
    Fact is, Australia and New Zealand were never particularly threatened by the virus due to many factors – their geographic isolation, reasonable health infrastructure and space between residents.
    It is a very good idea that vulnerable persons avoid contact but lockdowns are a very bad idea:
    https://tinyurl.com/y9szf5wz
    https://tinyurl.com/y9jc6285

  33. Mark Gobell says: • Website
    @Gilad Atzmon

    GA : They want to make us into Anne Franks hiding in attics from an merciless nazi virus…

    The first Holocaust Remembrance Day and the WHO’s Declaration of the Coronavirus Global Health Emergency
    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-our-coronavirus-catastrophe-as-biowarfare-blowback/?showcomments#comment-3862685

    MG

    • Replies: @Alfred
  34. Tom Welsh says:
    @anon

    I fear that it is not a matter of “pro-hysteria, pro-lockdown”.

    It is a question of large sums of money.

    • Agree: Thomasina
  35. Tom Welsh says:

    “In both US and UK cases Neil Ferguson relied on data from the Chinese government, data which has been shown as unreliable.”

    Ah yes, the ultimate fallback.

    “The Chinese made us do it”.

  36. Tom Welsh says:
    @Adrian E.

    “In the whole text, I don‘t see any concrete argument why the model by Imperial College was wrong”.

    Since the system being modelled is extremely complicated and involves many unknown factors, surely the onus should be on the proponents of a model to show why it is correct.

    Not the other way round.

    • Agree: Alfred
  37. @Adrian E.

    An overall assessment will only be possible after the end of the pandemic.

    How will that be defined?

  38. @Hail

    … we can now discard the models and look at observed-reality.

    Dude, don’t confuse serious debate and crisis management by injecting facts into the discussion.
    /sarc

  39. Emily says:

    Superb article.
    Do read Engdahl.
    Another link
    http://www.williamengdahl.com/englishNEO28Apr2020.php
    This is not the first mistake from Ferguson.
    In 2001 he inflicted this on British farms, farmers and their livestock.
    ‘It led to the slaughter of 6.5 million cattle, sheep and pigs, some of which were burned on open air pyres.’
    Many vets and farmers felt at the time – and still argue – that the policy was far too drastic, and that a more targeted approach would have been sufficient to bring the outbreak under control.
    That is what Ferguson inflicted on British farming – clearly merely a warm up to his destruction of the whole economies
    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/coronavirus-questions-over-modelling-behind-strict-restrictions/news-story/e6b928a4587119ad63b15e3af249ddf7
    As for news from Russia.
    Heard much?
    Why.
    Just look at these figures.
    Russians are not conveniently dying in their thousands,
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=russian+covid+19+deaths
    The Russians have analysed the whole Covid infection and have been treating it as required.
    Hope its OK but here is a most interesting post today on Zerohedege.
    How the Russians are actually treating Covid reflected in their low deathrate.
    They seem clearly on top of it.
    I wonder why the medical services in the west continue to be misled by the evil of the Gates slaughter.
    Quote
    Based on research by Russians, it has been established that the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 does not cause pneumonia, but pneumonia is a secondary pulmonary bacterial disease caused by primary devastation of lung tissues, to necrosis, due to a human autoimmune response, to coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. 2, which causes damage to the pulmonary vesicles, resulting in hypoxia, which is similar to Hantaviruses, which cause hemorrhagic fever, causing the Russians to make a breakthrough in the treatment of KOVID-19, as a result of which, despite growing new cases infected above 100,000, in Russia patients hospitalized for COVID-19, less than 20,000, of whom intensive care is less than 5,000, because if during the outpatient examination, or in the initial stage of hospitalization, the patient developed elevated values: C-reactive protein, D-dimer and ferritin, with a decrease to the mule value of protein – interferon alpha, which binds to the membrane y cells and protects them against infection by viruses, which the Russians called: цитокиновый шторм – cytokine storm

    – when the saturation falls below 98%, it is already an indication for hospitalization

    -saturation below 96% is already an indication for immediate intensive therapy, because such a low saturation below 96% indicates that it is the onset of lung tissue devastation, even necrosis, due to the human auto-immune response, to the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 , which causes hypoxia, against which the Russians are taking a number of measures, such as in the treatment of diseases they cause: Hantaviruses – hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome.

    Main treatment:

    + anticoagulants – treatment against thrombosis and embolism,

    + Oxygen therapy – breathing a mixture of helium and oxygen,

    in more severe cases, oxygenation of the blood by extracorporeal blood circulation

    + treatment to suppress a violent immune response,

    which averted devastation of the lungs to necrosis caused by the immune system

    + treatment to protect the liver and lungs,

    by suppressing radicals, free iron from broken down hemoglobin and necrosis products, by dialysis.

    As adjunctive therapy:

    -immunotropic therapy – interferon – glycoprotein

    Only when the patient was diagnosed with pneumonia by X-ray they use aminopenicillin, because the coronavirus is accompanied by streptococcus

    • Replies: @Alfred
  40. Alfred says:
    @Adrian E.

    In the whole text, I don‘t see any concrete argument why the model by Imperial College was wrong

    Ferguson dropped his forecast of deaths in the UK by 92% – as soon as people were locked up. What more proof do you need that the fix was in?

    Having changed the forecast by such a gigantic margin, why did they not cancel the lockdown for the UK?

    When you go to a shop and the label has a price that is 12.5 times greater than what you anticipated, you return the item. What is so different in this case? Do you seriously think that Boris Johnson is that thick?

    • Thanks: Gilad Atzmon
  41. Herald says:
    @anon

    Such an “Excellent comment” it could have almost come Adrian E himself.

  42. anon[191] • Disclaimer says:

    The governments of Europe who put all their eggs in this one basketcase Ferguson could’ve saved a lot of money by just asking their respective weather services to do the corona virus predictions. Hearing that the Gates foundation is funding these quacks sends up a red flag for me that they came out with predictions so that the respective governments would clamp down on everything and only loosen up when everyone has the Israeli made vaccine to make them “immune” to the disease.

  43. The issue is much less one of accurate modeling than it is of ensuring the citizenry be fed information that will frighten it into the arms of medical tyranny.

    It’s about making people believe that their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones, are immediately and durably at risk beyond their ability to cope – and about offering them, as response, a solution that encourages them to voluntarily renounce self-determination in matters of healthcare, freedom of movement, and freedom of association.

    As Stalin might have reminded us, it isn’t the actual numbers that matter, it’s how they are reported that does.

  44. @Ilya G Poimandres

    I don’t think that truth wasnt Popper’s concern as he actually tried to solve the problem of induction which he managed to do. The only problem is that no one within the scientific community operates according to his model (as revealed by Thomas Kuhn…),,

    • Replies: @Ilya G Poimandres
  45. @Julian of Norwich

    Good one.. I actually argue that it is too clumsy to be even be considered as scientific… How can you falsify a ‘model’ that ‘predicts’ 20.000 to 550.000 dead in the UK,,, let’s tale it even further,, how can you even attribute the word model to it?

  46. @Uradel666

    I will save you the trouble.. Popper falsifiability principle is not a scientific theory. It doesn’t even describe the way science operate. It was basically an elegant attempt to solve the problem of induction. Is it Analytic philosophy? Not really, it was an excercise in philosophy of science and logical positivism.

    • Replies: @Fox
    , @uradel666
  47. @anon

    Stay with Miko then 🙂

  48. cranc says:
    @Adrian E.

    On point 1, no argument can really be made against Fergusson’s model because the original code has not been published. This runs counter to the very core principles of science.
    The predictions of his model though can be measured against reality.

    A group of researchers at Sweden’s Uppsala University, including two Professors and two Associate Professors, who were inspired by Neil Ferguson and his team, created their own computer model, based on the Imperial College model. Their paper is here. They predicted, for various scenarios and transmission rates, between approximately 15 000 and 105 000 deaths in Sweden by May 1.

    By a long way the best case scenario was the 15 000 deaths, which they thought would only happen if the Swedish government quickly introduced a UK-style lockdown before mid-April.

    https://hectordrummond.com/2020/05/05/the-swedish-version-of-fergusons-model-turned-out-to-be-hopelessly-wrong/
    The reported death toll in Sweden is 2769 as of 4th May 2020. Such a divergence basically trashes the model’s viability.

  49. Emslander says:

    Never put far from your list of evil influencers the personal injury lawyers of America. Their gains are only beginning.

    • Replies: @450.org
    , @Alden
  50. GeeBee says:
    @Alfred

    ‘he pretends to have caught the infection himself and that his life was saved by the dedication of the doctors and nurses of the NHS’

    While I agree with most of the sentiments you express, your accusation that Boris Johnson faked his illness is not convincing. NHS staff gossip, especially so when they find themselves in charge of a ‘celebrity’. Had Johnson been taken to hospital suffering from nothing at all, or perhaps a common cold, the staff would undoubtedly have known it. And they would have mentioned this to plenty of people. Such a ploy, once news of it got out, would not be worth the risk.

    And does Boris revere Churchill? Unusual for a Harrovian to be given so much as the time of day by anyone from what Harrovians euphemistically describe as ‘another place’…

  51. Alfred says:
    @Mark Gobell

    They want to make us into Anne Franks hiding in attics from an merciless nazi virus…

    I hope you realise that the Anne Franks story was fabricated long after WW2. It was written by a male Jew with a ball-point pen – which did not exist anywhere at that time.

    There are photos online of someone who looks very much like her who survived the “death camps”

    • Replies: @Mark Gobell
  52. 450.org says:
    @Adrian E.

    Agreed. How anyone can criticize Atzmon for being anti-semitic is beyond me. He’s carrying water for Israel and their man in the White House, Donald Trump. In fact, maybe he’s one of Donald Trump’s many unofficial ad-hoc advisers Don the Con chooses from a hat each and every day like a lottery of sorts.

    This is just encouragement and support for and the enabling of the Trump Holocaust. The record of 6 million American victims will be broken and exceeded when it’s all said and done if it’s ever all said and done. An eye for an eye. FDR sat on his hands far too long and as we all know, Never Forget and Never Again. Hunters reveals that vengeful bloodlust in all its inglory. It’s a mindset. In their twisted minds, ALL Americans are Nazis upon which their revenge must be exacted.

    So far, of the confirmed and reported cases, America has 1/3 of reported and confirmed cases and 1/4 of the confirmed and reported deaths. And yet America has 4.25% of the world’s population. It correlates directly with America’s generation of CO2 compared with the rest of the world. America has by far and away the largest per capita CO2 footprint. It’s not even close. Same holds for this virus. It means, necessarily, America is a pig or a global Jabba the Hutt — a grotesque beast that’s embraced and secured as its true bill of rights the seven deadly sins.

    Donald Trump sure has MAGA, hasn’t he?

    View post on imgur.com

  53. 450.org says:
    @Emslander

    Never put far from your list of evil influencers the personal injury lawyers of America. Their gains are only beginning.

    Yeah, the same ones who are suing China on behalf of Donald Trump. Trump is one of the worst abusers of the judicial system. He has inundated it with one frivolous lawsuit after another and he continues to do so while POTUS.

  54. Alfred says:
    @Emily

    Please provide links to the Russian approach. Below is a comparison between the “gas station masquerading as a country”and the West. The UK and the USA are appallingly bad – 3rd worldish.

    • Replies: @Emily
  55. @Wally

    What WHO should have done is to issue order to stop any person to leave China, or at least recommend it. Also issue order to stop air traffic to China.
    WHO is responsible for all deaths outside China.

  56. The next question is why anyone in Britain or the USA takes such ‘science’ seriously. One wonders what is it that has led Britain and its academia to lose touch with the core scientific ethos?

    Verjudung

  57. schrub says:

    I have been sitting back wondering when this hoax was going to be revealed

    Hoax you say. How outrageousssss! Why do you say this?

    Here is a video from 2014 in which a guy by the name of Harry Vox reveals a Rockerfeller Foundation “scenario” from about 2010 which describes our current situation perfectly right down to the face masks, the “social distancing”, and quarantine and lockdown. It even more ominously describes the eventual destruction of our economy because of the effects of the lock down.

    Always a suspicious soul, I at first though that this video was just another bit of fiction that had in fact been made just recently. To test this theory, I sought out another more recent video in which Harry Vox appears. Here is one that is definitely from 2020 and Vox is visibly older. No more young Al Pacino look-alike like in 2014. He, in fact, hasn’t aged particularly well.

    For those who want primary sources, here is the actual Rockerfeller scenario from May 2010 that Harry Vox describes in the first video. It is from the ARCHIVE website. Be sure to take a super strong anti nausea pill before reading it.

    https://archive.org/details/pdfy-tNG7MjZUicS-wiJb/mode/thumb

    • Thanks: Alfred
    • Replies: @S
    , @Paul C.
  58. tomo says:

    I noticed when I studied there about 20 years ago that corporations like BP etc have a lot of influence. I persuaded a friend to do a Masters in Environmental studies there (I did IT)
    A couple of years later I met him in Australia and was really shocked how anti-green energy he was. He thought oil and fossil fuels are the only way forward and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
    Then I remembered that his department at Imperial College was probably financed by BP.
    Most UK unis are like that as far as I know. I studied economics there (not at IC) – all they taught us was that privatizing everything is the only way.
    I also studied psychology at another uni in London – and they never even mentioned psychopaths. And psychopaths and psychopathic ‘cultures’ are the biggest problem we face today.
    We focused on comparatively much less harmful schizophrenics. One well-placed psychopath like Hilary or Trump can destroy the whole world, and they specialize in fake charm, acting, behind the scene tricks (i.e. the same symptoms that are glorified by predatory outlets like Hollywood etc as desirable)
    World’s capitals of psychopathy are London, LA and NYC
    how convenient that even psychologist in the UK are not really taught how to spot them (or that they are even a problem)

    • Replies: @Alfred
  59. niceland says:

    It seems to me Mr. Ferguson big sin is he overestimated the fatality ratio (IFR) because he underestimated the number of undetected cases with few symptoms or none.

    To be fair – it’s hard to blame him for that early in the pandemic. Except perhaps if he ignored data pointing towards lower IFR. Was such data available? If not, where did Ferguson stray away from the scientific method?

    Still I wholeheartedly agree with Mr Atzmon here:

    If there is a lesson to be drawn from the C19 crisis at this stage, it is that universities, academia and science must be separated from all forms of mammon and mammonites. The word ‘university’ is derived from the Latin word universitas meaning: the whole, total, the universe, the world. Universitas were initially communities of teachers and scholars committed to knowledge and its seeking rather than an extended apparatus attached to pharmaceutical conglomerates, food chains, bankers and other symptoms of the capitalist universe.

    Well said!

  60. @Tony Hall

    Bring back the Polytechnics. A dozen or so actual universities is enough for the UK.

  61. @Gilad Atzmon

    What I meant was that the method goes for disproving rather than proving, so saying it finds truths is looking at it upside down.

    Some inferred hypothesis is tested by rejecting the null hypothesis, which is always stated as the reverse of the inferred hypothesis. If your hypothesis is that ‘the river floods every sunday’, the null will be ‘the river doesn’t flood on sunday’, and the observational data will be used to show to what degree ‘the river doesn’t flood on sunday’ is false, the null will be rejected at some confidence interval. Aside from the initial musing, there is no positive statement anywhere.

    I never believed in a problem of induction – it’s just extrapolation, guesswork – and I remember my econometrics professor clearly pleading with his class, that the greatest error of statistics is extrapolation. Neil Ferguson would have done well to have sat in on the lecture! 😀

    India has had an interesting discussion with respect to epistemology imo, through their discussion of Pramana, and really induction is just a step below direct observation in terms of its accuracy in analyzing experience. Nothing wrong with it as such, just that it can’t be relied on like direct observation.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  62. Alfred says:
    @tomo

    A couple of years later I met him in Australia and was really shocked how anti-green energy he was.

    There is no such thing as “green energy”. The wind turbines and solar cells require massive resources of fossil fuels to manufacture, install, maintain and remove. I wish it were not so but that is the reality.

    Any “solution” that produces less than 10 times the energy it consumes will lead to economic collapse. I think that is why they pulled the plug on the world economy.

    Liquid fossil fuels are irreplaceable for transport. Forget about electric cars – they run on electricity that is generated the old-fashioned ways. Wind and solar are undependable and require 100% backup. If we were smart, we would have tried to switch cars to natural gas.

    I also studied psychology at another uni in London – and they never even mentioned psychopaths.

    I totally agree with this statement. I have known plenty of psychopaths. I try my best to stay away from them. But that is difficult when guys like Tony Blair and Bill Gates have undue influence. Psychopaths are good at getting on committees that decide what textbooks and syllabuses should contain. They readily recognize one another and cooperate against non-psychopaths. My older brother is one. He was responsible for privatizing/looting all the countries of the former Warsaw Pact. His bio on Bloomberg says that he privatized over 100,000 concerns. There were many millions of excess deaths in Russia alone in consequence. BTW, he studied Mechanical Engineering and later Production Engineering at IC.

    I studied economics there (not at IC) – all they taught us was that privatizing everything is the only way.

    It was not like that when I studied business at IC in 1972/73. But I am sure all of that has now changed. I remember arguing with some lecturer about the advantages that I perceived in privatization. 🙂

    It seems to me that universities no longer provide value to society – except in select subjects like engineering, mathematics and medicine.

    When I studied management and operations research at Imperial College, we had a handful of rooms in the Mechanical Engineering building. Now, they have the building below.

  63. @Gilad Atzmon

    Fauci, FB, Ferguson, Pompeo, Sanders, ADL etc. are different manifestations of Jerusalem.

    I agree. However the whole question of Ferguson and Imperial College and its “influence” on governments needs to be revisited from the perspective of what do the governments want to hear from Ferguson and Imperial College.
    Sometime back in the mists of time, I recall being told by a corporate insurance broker that consultants are people who borrow your watch to tell you what time it is. When the consultancy fad began to rise in the 1990s, Henry Mintzberg, a Professor in the Business Schools at McGill and Strasbourg, said any CEO that hires a consultant should be fired, because its his job to understand what is happening.
    The reality is people like Ferguson and his Imperial College are consultants. Now I can’t comment on what went on in the backrooms of the UK and Parliament, but this video indicates the hysteria was planned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxTY7MR4IHk

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  64. @Alfred

    Thanks Alfred.

    I am familiar with the woeful, so-called provenance of The Diary of a Young Girl, attributed to Saint Anne of the Jewish Holocaust, thank you for asking.

    Surely, your reply should have been to Gilad Atzmon ?

    Unsurprisingly, the Holy Anne Frank narrative, serves as an allegory to the Jewish struggle and events therein have been used as kabbalistic roots, upon which has been built other holocaustianity and much post war skullduggery. For example :

    Anne Frank and the murder of JFK Jr.
    https://www.whataboutthewhen.com/murder_jfk_jr_anne_frank.html

    MG

    • Replies: @S
  65. Saggy says: • Website

    The idiots are heard from once again ….. Atzmon writes …

    Based on the Ferguson model, Dr Anthony Fauci of NIAID reportedly confronted President Trump and pressured him to declare a national health emergency.

    This is idiotic for several reasons … first Trump should have declared a national health emergency much earlier, as the South Korean did, based on past experiences with pandemic viruses.

    Second, Trump may have declared an emergency, but he did not follow with the mandatory actions required to combat the virus, namely a real travel ban, the immediate development and distribution of a diagnostic test, aggressive testing and contact tracing, distribution of necessary PPE to hospitals, requiring necessary protective meansures in the population, masks, and enforcing lockdowns when clusters of infections are discovered.

    Instead Trump made idiotic speeches saying the virus was going to go away ‘like magic’.

    The result is that now the US is the epicenter of the epidemic, with 24,000+ new cases and 1300+ deaths yesterday.

    Linh Dinh summed it up ….

    After China, South Korea was hit hardest by the coronavirus, yet it never locked itself down. By comprehensively testing people, regularly disinfecting places, contact tracing and having nearly everyone wear a face mask while in public, it has managed to suffer only 211 deaths in 11 weeks. On just April 8th, 799 people died from it in New York State.

    There is hope. The coronavirus crisis has exposed the relative merits of nations, so the entire world can see, for example, how broken and corrupt the US is, with no leadership to speak of. Dawdling, it failed to prevent needless deaths, then shut down much of the country, bankrupting thousands of businesses and throwing millions out of work. As a fix, it throws mere crumbs at desperate citizens, while bailing out the big banks, again.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Wally
  66. @Alfred

    I had an offer for Electrical Engineering at IC but chose Engineering Science elsewhere. I have always had second thoughts about that. Imperial is a top rank engineering universtiy and whatever you think of its economics course, there is always the LSE to make it look good.

    Eastern Europe was going to have a bad time whatever hapened as its markets adjuisted to real world pricing. I was in Russia at the time. I understood the need for private ownership. It was obviously required. I did not understand the need for a stock market or the immediate involvement of portfolio investors like Browder or Harvard’s endowment fund. The incumbent management were almost always best equipped to bring new life to the organizations. However, it was also mad to shut out Western industrial investors from the same industries who could have made a deal with the new owner managers three years earlier than actually happened. . What wasworst about the Russian situation was the muddle, lack of transparaency and the bizarre creation of dodgy private banks at government expense.

    Poland had a much more transparent and clear vision. Yes people died as they do in recessions. There was no way to aviod it. The old system was collapsing and would have produced a worse result. It was a mater of choosing the least of many possible evils. All choices, including doing nothing were bad.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  67. S says:
    @schrub

    Thanks. This adds credence to the idea that certain events which take place and are presented as being ever so spontaneous when they do were in reality planned long before.

    Wonder how long it is before they won’t bother with the hassle of maintaining the illusion of freedom anymore and simply reveal the brick wall at the back of the theatre?

    The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it’s profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/12280-the-illusion-of-freedom-will-continue-as-long-as-it-s

  68. Alfred says:
    @Philip Owen

    I had an offer for Electrical Engineering at IC but chose Engineering Science elsewhere.

    My private school (Stowe) offered me a reserved place at Cambridge. In those days, some schools got a number of reserved places from Oxford and Cambridge. Admission became a formality. To the shock and horror of Stowe’s headmaster, I refused it. At IC, after the interview, they asked me for 3 passes at A’level – almost unheard of. 🙂

    In the first year there were some core subjects for all engineers. All 350 students had to do “electrical engineering”, for example. But I was studying civil engineering. By some fluke, I was the only one to get full marks in the electrical engineering exam. They were convinced that I had somehow cheated – which is impossible given the time limits. Eventually, they believed me and offered me to switch to electrical engineering. Being a stubborn type, I said no thank you.

    I annoyed the lecturers by asking awkward questions that caused a lot of hilarity. I was the second youngest in a class of 73. Many were asked to leave after the first year. I graduated with a lower second. I am lucky they did not fail me.

    There is an old saying – “A” students work for “C” students and “B” students work for the government.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  69. shams says:

    excellent debate and comments. just can’t understand the eagerness and desire to embrace the Ferguson’s verdict if he was alone there ??????? IMPERIAL ways of Imperial College ,,

  70. @anon

    I’d say you’re either a fucking cretin, or a paid troll of the plutocracy, or both.

    You think you’re all radical and all, with your attacks on people who know the truth. But you are actually doing exactly what the trillionaires want you to do.

    You see, the trillionaires want all you boobs to agitate for opening up business–because they’ve got trilliions of dollars sloshing around that needs somewhere to go.

    So you think you’re fighting the good fight, when you are only an obedient slave.

    And I suppose you didn’t notice Trump gave trillionaires a trillion more dollars. The greatest theft in history. Typical troll behavior.

    • Troll: Delta G, Agent76
    • Replies: @Max Payne
  71. @Adrian E.

    They stole a trillion dollars. From us. Now they need somewhere for the trillion dollars to go. So they want all you deniers to get out there and militate for “Open up!”

    They don’t care if you die. They need liquidity. You are very obedient slaves who think they are mighty mighty radicals rocking some boat that already sank.

    • Troll: Delta G
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  72. @Gilad Atzmon

    No they don’t. You are so radical in your iconoclasty. I’m joking. You are lockstep tool of our owners. Who has been suckered into believing–and promulgating–what they want you to believe and thinking yourself “outrageous,” in your antinomianistic breaking of all boundaries!

    Here’s the truth: our owners want everything opened up. They have no place for the trillions of dollars they stole sloshing around across the world to go, with it all locked down.

    So the forces of evil are not the forces of lockdown. They are the forces of “open up.”

    And just because the Western libertarian governments fucked up the lockdown so badly is irrelevant. It was still the right thing to do.

    Join in the cry your owners ghost-wrote for you, “Open up the economy and die for the economy” (“the economy” being a code word for the greater betterment of our owners and our own destruction).

  73. Emslander says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    The scientific method is a useful convention for a neutral community of truth seekers. It has the effect of building a structure of knowledge that becomes more solid as theories are challenged, altered and improved, like the concrete in Hoover dam, some of which is still setting and hardening.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  74. @Alfred

    If we were smart, we’d simply reduced the fucking weight of cars.

    And had forbiden femoid participation in a lot of useless driving.

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  75. Emily says:
    @Alfred

    Hi Alfred
    Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
    I have posted the full post from a reputable poster on Zerohedge.
    I have no reason to doubt its truthfulness.
    It has a lot of medical detail and seems to make clinical sense.
    I have no formal link.
    There was none given.
    Perhaps you would be kind enough to put up a link refuting the Russian treatments if you have a problem with the report..
    However their very small death toll does them credit – they seem to be getting something right.

  76. Breaking NEWS . . .

    Prof Neil Ferguson has resigned as a UK government advisor after breaking the quarantine on more than one occcassion to visit a married lover. It is not known whether they wore masks during their trysts.

    https://www.rt.com/uk/487853-ferguson-resigns-lockdown-violate-lover/

    • LOL: geokat62
  77. geokat62 says:

    Another serology study – this time in Germany – suggests the Infection Fatality Rate (IFR) is much lower than that assumed by Neil Ferguson as an input in his (in)famous Imperial College model.

    German virologist: Covid-19 is less deadly than we thought

    Description:

    Read the full accompanying article here: https://unherd.com/thepost/german-virologist-finds-covid-fatality-rate-of-0-24-0-36/

    At UnHerd, we’ve spoken to experts at both ends of the range of estimates, from Neil Ferguson (who believes the IFR to be just under 1%, perhaps 0.8-0.9%) to Johan Giesecke who maintains that it is nearer 0.1%.

    This may sound like splitting hairs – they are both under one percent after all – but in reality the difference between these estimates changes everything. At the lower end, a much more laissezfaire policy becomes possible, and at 30,000 deaths it starts to look like the UK has already been through the worst of it; at the higher end, a policy of continued ultra-caution is necessary because a more relaxed approach could mean hundreds of thousands of additional deaths.
    That’s why the study conducted by Professor Hendrik Streeck of the University of Bonn is so significant: a fully representative sample population within Germany was tested and examined in great detail to determine what percentage had already been infected with Covid-19.

    In the interview, the host made reference to a serology study conducted by the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine (CEBM) that backed up the low IFR suggested by the German study.

    According to CEBM:

    Taking account of historical experience, trends in the data, increased number of infections in the population at largest (sic), and potential impact of misclassification of deaths gives a presumed estimate for the COVID-19 IFR somewhere between 0.1% and 0.41%.

    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

    • Thanks: Alfred
  78. Fox says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    Well said. It is not possible to reason for something within and from itself, otherwise, it becomes only tautology.

    • Thanks: Gilad Atzmon
  79. S says:
    @Mark Gobell

    Anne Frank and the murder of JFK Jr.

    This is remindful that there was a 1962 episode of the famous US progressive establishment orientated TV series Route 66 which had strong symbolism of both ‘the H’ of WWII and powerful hints of a potential future November assassination attempt upon a leader (a king) in the form of a hideous ‘Guy Fawkes’ like mask and a figure being burned in effigy…ie ‘Remember, remember!
    The fifth of November, The Gunpowder treason and plot..’. The 1605 Gunpowder plot against King James I of England, it will be recalled, also had an Oswald, a Jesuit priest, who knew of the assassination plot beforehand, but didn’t take part.

    [MORE]

    The episode features ‘Dallas’ and ‘3’, as in three shots. The Texas townspeople are called ‘Kilkennians’, which sounds disconcertingly like ‘kill Kennedy’. While the episode’s Kilkenny, Tx, is fictional, there really is a Kilkenny County, Ireland. This county is all but right on top of the Kennedy family historic homestead in Ireland, located a mere ‘stone’s throw’ across the River Barrow border in Dunganstown, New Ross, Co Wexford.

    For good measure, one might suppose, the same episode specifically references Charles Dicken’s ‘Madame Dafarge’ and ‘her knitting’. Dafarge would cryptically weave the names of those whom were to be guillotined by the French Revolution into her knitting, in the same way Kennedy’s name had been cryptically woven into the knitting of this script to signal his own coming execution?

    Route 66 also had the ‘I’m Here to Kill a King’ episode scheduled (but not shown) for the week of the JFK assassination, which has to be seen to be believed. It features a patsy like character whose worksite along a motorcade route will conveniently allow him to take the blame for a high level assassination plot against a country’s leader. Arabs and ‘ground zero’ in New York are an underlying theme. The ‘killing of the king’ is a Masonic concept.

    https://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2012/08/weld.html?m=1

    https://myrealireland.com/wexford/kennedy-homestead-ancestral-home-john-f-kennedy-ireland-home-jfk-museum/

    • Replies: @utu
  80. @Tsar Nicholas

    Maybe she was worth the risk. hmmmm? Any pix?

  81. Delta G says:

    I want to commend Gilad on such a well put together summation of the shame that masquerades as Science especially in the Covid 19 era as this will now be known.

    As has become par for the course here on Ugh Review an Alternative Universe in Nonsensical Nonsense and Gee I am so F’ing smart in the comments section of a reasonable and well formulated article, Gilead has attracted every Moron in the Western Hemisphere to comment here.

    I watched the USA destroy its Academic Institution from the inside. The process was very simple, you change the focus and purpose of the University from the discovery of new knowledge to “You Need To Get More Money!!” This was a snowballing behavior made permanent and widespread with the removal and replacement of University Presidents, Provosts, College Deans and Department Chairs that had academic credentials and backgrounds in order to get the position, with 3rd and 4th rate Mangers and you got what you have today. Its been going on since the mid-1980’s and has picked up its pace with time. So now you basically have Garbage with a lot of money. That is your American and British University Systems.

    I worked at NIH and 3 different Medical Schools in the US from 1979 to 2005 and then at a so called non-profit research institute. I watched them self destruct trying to get money anyway they could and abandoning their societal responsibilities of Education and Research. I knew 30 years ago this was a dead end path.

    There is nothing left to salvage in the US or UK in academics. Its all gone and has been for some time.

    There are around 20,000 citations of my 105 scientific manuscripts that I authored in journals like Nature, NEJM, Cell, PNAS, J of Cell Biology etc . I still get emails from Research Gate informing me of new citations of my published work and where the citing authors are located. The vast majority of the scientists who are reading my work from downloads and are citing it in new published articles in peer reviewed journals are from China. Very few in the US and almost none from the UK. Some in Western Europe but more in Eastern Europe and Russia, the Middle East and Australia.

    To me this demonstrates where the active basic biomedical research is taking place now and this trend has been going on for some time and has grown more clear in the last 10 years.

    The US never really had any great interest in real Science. It was only after Sputnik that they $hit their collective pants and decided that Science and Technology was important. That lasted almost 20 years, late 1950’s to late 1970’s. I was awarded my Ph.D. degree in Biology in 1979, the tail end of that era.

    After they landed men on the moon NASA was cut back to almost nothing. I witnessed this as a High School student living in the Space Coast at that time. A number of my friends fathers were Aerospace Engineers working either for NASA or a major subcontractor. They could not find jobs anywhere as an Engineer when they were laid off after the Apollo Program was closed. The area around the Kennedy Space center had the highest suicide and divorce rate in the United States for some time after that. Yes and NASA has the Shuttle legacy as its last manned adventure with murders of 2 crews.

    When I worked at the NIH from 1979 to 1985 there were 4 Nobel Laureates with active research labs and it was the largest and most powerful Biomedical Research Institute on earth. Now all that’s left is the Francis Collins (Uhhh, lets sequence the human genome man, that will be so cool) and the now infamous Anthony Fauci (a career bureaucrat that crawled out from under a rock). Another proof that unless you keep your best talent and train new ones the institution will slide down hill rapidly.

    What we have now with Ferguson, and Fauci and the WHO is the whores of Science that are willing and desperate to be purchased by Corporations or Non-Profits like the Gates Foundation which are just Corporations in camouflage.

    The main reason the Asians particularly the Chinese have done well with the Corona Event is that they are the main intellectual and technological center on the planet. The US is a Financial house of cards with nothing left from its recent past of actual Intellectual and Scientific and Technological prowess.

    This abysmal situation did not happen overnight. It took decades of corruption and mismanagement to get to the bottom of this cesspool we now have to deal with.

    • Thanks: Miro23
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    , @Alfred
  82. Paul C. says:
    @schrub

    The Rockefeller Foundation document that Harry refers to is called:

    Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development.

    You can find it online. The section called Lockstep, page 18, describes exactly what we’re living through to a tee. All planned out as they do. Dana Ashlie did a video on this document but her video has been scrubbed by Youtube, no surprise.

  83. neprof says:
    @Tsar Nicholas

    At least she looks worthy of a jailbreak.

    My unscientific model says he banged her at least a dozen times.

    • LOL: Gilad Atzmon
  84. “Prof Neil Ferguson quits government role after ‘undermining’ lockdown”

    Looks like he doesn’t believe what he preaches: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52553229

  85. Anybody who thinks this has anything to do with a disease just isn’t paying attention. Here’s the formula:

    CV19 + Trump – vote-by-mail (VBM) = hair on fire apocalypse
    CV19 – Trump + vote-by-mail = halcyon reopening

    Never before has somebody getting the flu in Asia meant Johnny’s Tobacco Emporium in Queens has to close for the summer. If Trump steps down and VBM passes, it’ll be remarkable how quickly CV19 is vanquished.

    Scorched earth politics, baby

    • Agree: Getaclue
  86. David says:
    @interesting

    My experience exactly. My local out of work, stuck at home friends are hating life. My office work friends, still paid but working form home, are quite satisfied with life and feeling virtuously obedient.

    I keep thinking about what Wall Street and our largely Jewish financiers just got away with. They were invited to liquidate ten trillion dollars of half worthless paper without taking any hit at all. Meanwhile, successful, until recently prosperous, self-employed friends are having to liquidate in a hurry, and will take a big hit, even if their creditors work with them.

    A week ago, a Vermont state rep mentioned that property taxes would need to go up 50% to cover the projected budget gap. It would not have crossed her mind to state how much state employee compensation would need to go down to have the same effect.

  87. @neprof

    She works for Avaaz, went to SOAS, and lives in an ‘open marriage’.

  88. Hibernian says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    Australia is an example of very low overall density despite a high level of urbanization, like many states in the US.

  89. Max Payne says:
    @obwandiyag

    Sounds like someone is mad they fell for the hysteria.

    • Agree: Alfred
    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  90. @neprof

    The people she works for – Avaaz – seem pretty slimy. The founder is Ricken Patel, an Indian-Jewish Canadian. The reviews on Glassdoor for Avaaz say it all:

    at it’s worst it can feel like an organisation built by a CEO who’s used members money to form their own echo chamber to nurse an enormous but fragile ego

    CEO is an explicit proponent of ‘a strong, almost cult like culture’ in the workplace as a path towards highly functioning teams.

    organisation meetings being temporarily replaced with ‘wisdom circles’ where staff are only permitted to participate if CEO perceives you to be ‘following your nudge/flowing from your center and not coming from a head space’

    Encouraged to make ritualized affirmations and commitments in highly pressurized situations in front of whole organisation , e.g. ‘I am clean with [CEO] as my leader’ and ‘I am clean with Connection Culture’ with the implication that this team is not for you and you should find new work if you don’t feel comfortable doing so

    What started off as an exciting job, with some of the most talented people I’ve ever met, slowly descended into a toxic cult that threatened the very humanity of the people working there.

    The Avaaz management team are experts at gaslighting — it’s the basis of their whole management system and leads to systematic silencing of critical thought. If you raise feedback on something as simple as a campaign process you might find yourself having to discuss childhood trauma that might ‘explain’ why you’re reacting to it in this way.

    The CEO has a messiah-complex and is now trying to turn the organisation into some kind of spiritual movement with him at the centre.

    The culture at Avaaz is damaging, invasive, manipulative and used to justify favoritism. They’re outright hostile and bullying if you don’t agree and conform to a certain way of thinking. A chosen few are provided with all of the opportunities.

  91. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @neprof

    The report you cited just proves that doomsayer Neil Ferguson doesn’t even believe his own BS and is a complete fraud.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/05/exclusive-government-scientist-neil-ferguson-resigns-breaking/

  92. @Fuerchtegott

    I don’t know where your data comes from, but you are referring to cars and the graph refers to vehicles. The mid -size car I bought in 1979 was heavier than the midsize car I bought in 1994, and the mid-size SUV I currently own is lighter than my 1994 car. While it is true the Japanese and European cars sold in North America have gotten bigger, the weight to size ratio has shrunk. The difference between 1980 and 2020 is the huge increase in pickup truck size, weight, and numbers sold. God only knows why someone needs a gas guzzling, 4 wheel drive, 4 door crew cab with an 8 foot box pickup to drive to an office downtown or to the grocery store.

    • Replies: @Fuerchtegott
  93. @Alfred

    You would have met Prof Eric Laithwaite? I got on well with him at interview. I spent most of the day with a spanner in hand setting up a linear motor. I was already an apprentice in an electric motor factory so it came easy.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  94. @obwandiyag

    $5 trillion in the US alone as I understand it.

  95. @Delta G

    As an outside consultant in technology transfer, mostly with ESA but sometimes with NASA, I witnessed turning into a major centre of minority hiring as in find anyone there who had actually worked on the moon programme.

    The one group who held onto relevance for themselves were the climate science group. As the rest of NASA was foundering, the climatologists invented Anthropogenic Global Warming with a little help from the University of East Anglia who had started it. (The same UEA modelling team advises Neil Ferguson of epidemiology fame). They held on to their budget and still hired on their idea of merit.

  96. @Curmudgeon

    Was just the first google hit that seemed fitting for the general point.

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  97. Agent76 says:

    May 1, 2020 Current Legal Challenges to COVID-19 Rules

    We’ve all been watching the unprecedented situation with COVID-19 play out. At IJ, we have a particular interest in what’s happening in the law.

    Apr 30, 2020 Funeral Directors in COVID-19 Epicenter Doubt Legitimacy of Deaths Attributed to Pandemic

    Apr 28, 2020 Next in Coronavirus Tyranny: Forced Vaccinations and ‘Digital Certificates’

    Ron Paul on the Bill Gates crowd’s next horrible move…

  98. @Max Payne

    Sounds like you’re in the pay of the trillionaires, with your big quarter a response. Congratulations. You just made another one. You’re rich.

  99. aspnaz says:

    Prof. Ferguson is either:
    a) a comptent epidemiologist, but epidemiology is a totally misunderstood subject.
    b) an incompetent epidemiologist who is a competent political player.
    c) a crook who took money to publish rubbish.

    I suspect it is option b. Like many a senior manager, he is completely out of touch with his own area of business but says the right things when hanging out with the likes of Gates and Fauci. I see that today he was caught banging a married woman, breaking his lockdown. Given that track record, maybe it is option c.

    Either way, Alice Gast, the president of Imperial College should tender her resignation for lending her institution’s credibility to such a scoundrel and for bringing the whole institution into disrepute.

    • Agree: Gilad Atzmon
    • Replies: @Alfred
  100. @Curmudgeon

    There has been a correction posted on the link explaining that the bill morphed recently.

  101. @Fuerchtegott

    I’m not disputing your overall conclusions, just trying to put them in a different perspective.
    As an aside, my daughter often refers to how bad “Triple O” drivers are.
    Old
    Oriental
    Ovaries

    • LOL: Fuerchtegott
  102. Skeptikal says:
    @Bill Jones

    Ha ha.
    Love prevails.
    Or something . . .

  103. anon[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alfred

    There is no such thing as “green energy”. The wind turbines and solar cells require massive resources of fossil fuels to manufacture, install, maintain and remove. I wish it were not so but that is the reality.

    Correct. This is convincingly shown in Michael Moore produced documentary Planet Of The Humans.

    Diesel is the way to go. Cars get over 50 miles per gallon on Diesel. People make their own Diesel from the KFC etc waste oil which is given to them for free. Can’t do this on new Diesels because of the idiot environmentalists and their idiotic nitrous oxide (laughing gas) emission laws.

  104. Skeptikal says:
    @Tony Hall

    “I’m sure there are many public intellectuals who actually know quite a bit about what did or didn’t happen before, during and after 9/11 and choose to play it safe. (Is Gilad one of those?) They avoid dealing with the topic. They say nothing too penetrating about it because its pretty clear there might be harsh consequences. And they’re right.

    The effect of the silences, however, is to leave those of us who do try to grapple with the evidence in academic and other settings way more exposed and endangered than we should be, than would be if there was a wider base of open discussion and debate on this matter”

    Very good comment overall. Just to add that all the ludicrous official narratives that have been forced on the American public after a long series of traumatic events—Dallas 1963; the USS Liberty; the 1979 Hostage situation; the 2000 election swindle; 9/11; teh “suicides of journalists such as Gary Webb and Michael Hastings; now the covid panic; and others—these enforced ludicrous narratives are all major gaslighting operations whereby the public is progressively “trained” to accept or be seen to accept obvious lies and subterfuges as reality. The public gradually abandons its own version of reality or pretends to do so while the false narrative continues to reign and to pass unquestioned in any public conversation or space or dialogue and more lies are constructed that use the original lies as truthful premises.

    Ultimately this ongoing construction of lies and suppressed realizations leads to conscious and unconscious resignation: For someone who was a teenager in November 1963, the Ur-trauma and lie for my generation, the feeling is of being every more entangled in a miasma of lies and the helpless acknowledgment that we will *never catch up*. The lies are expanding and are being built on top of previous lies that are constantly reinforced while arduously excavated truths go down the memory hole much faster than anyone can deal with or clean it up or get to any kind of Ground Zero of truth. If the axioms are wrong, everything derived from the axioms is wrong.

    In the end one either goes insane with it all, or one gets on with one’s own life under a psychic survival mechanism of inner emigration. As Tony Hall notes, until there is a wider debate on all such matters, including all of the factors in the political C19 stew, anyone who raises his or her head above the barricades will just endanger himself.

    The question is, how to increase the “debate mass” both within and outside the academy to a point where individuals who challenge the gaslighting are “safe” (irony alert).

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Andrew Blair
  105. Skeptikal says:
    @Skeptikal

    The phrase “conspiracy theory” is the ultimate gaslighting tool. It was invented for that purpose.

    Anyone who uses it is gaslighting: basically trying to drive other people (literally) crazy by labeling them crazy.

    It is, metaphorically, institutionalizing them.

    Placing them in quarantine so that the “uninfected” don’t dare “touch” the quarantined ideas, information, analysis, or evidence.

  106. Skeptikal says:
    @Emslander

    Right.

    And this edifice of increasingly solid probability is the opposite of the edifice of improbable (but we are demanded to act like we accept them as truth) lies that has become the structure on which much public discourse is hung. Every time a pundit or a writer or a newscaster makes a casual mention of Lee Harvey Oswald as lone gunman or of a bunch of zealot Islamic boxcutters and we let that pass, it reinforces the false edifice of obvious but officially approved nonsense. The constant casual reinforcement of nonsensical stories by mouthpieces of various sorts is a kind of clown version of actual scientific peer review. Hearing these fragments of untrue narratives and letting them pass is another ‘training” in accepting a false version of reality. Of course what option do we have. Shout at the TV?

    Thus a parallel edifice of lies is constructed in a kind of parallel universe to the edifice of probably true understandings constructed by genuine science and honest public discourse.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  107. Alden says:
    @Emslander

    I sincerely hope the PI attorneys of NY Michigan California and every state that was locked down by the bogus excuse of public health danger sue the governors personally , the state Democratic parties and the state on behalf of the businesses and people who were harmed by those dictatorial unconstitutional orders.

  108. @Alfred

    Lying with the truth. Is that what they teach you at whatever nursery school you lie and say you went to?

    Wind and solar do too work. Combined with . . . wait for it . . . combined with . . .

    Efficiency/conservation.

    Which you of course do not even deign to mention. Which is how you lie with the truth. You people are all alike. Scumbags.

    Did I hear you say your brother was a capitalist bloodsucking scumbag?

    Holy cow. Dissension in the ranks. Doesn’t make you any smarter. And probably some lie, anyhow, whose purpose is un-winkle-out-able. But holy cow.

  109. anon[161] • Disclaimer says:
    @Saggy

    This is idiotic for several reasons … first Trump should have declared a national health emergency much earlier, as the South Korean did, based on past experiences with pandemic viruses.

    Second, Trump may have declared an emergency, but he did not follow with the mandatory actions required to combat the virus….

    Instead Trump made idiotic speeches saying the virus was going to go away ‘like magic’.

    Exactly.

    Here’s the searing – and blessedly delightful – summary of the past 5 months. )More to come, no doubt.) Once upon a virus –

  110. uradel666 says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    1. I did not say that Popper Falsifiability principle is a scientific theory. I presented myself with old argument concerning “the law of sufficient reason.”

    2. If Popper Falsifiability principle cannot be (analytically) applied to itself on the grounds of what it itself asserts then it cannot be applied to any experiment (logic theory).

    3. Moreover, If Ferguson and his Imperial College did not even attempt to produce a clear criteria (!) for falsification then the “falsification” or Popper Falsifiability principle is not established there and cannot be applied to it in general; and therefore, we are not able to say whether it have little to do with science or not.

    4. Since the Popper Falsifiability principle is not consonant to law of logic and cannot be applied to any experiment, all your conclusions based on the Popper Falsifiability principle are fallacies.

    5. “I am not in any position to assess the true danger to us of C19 or our response to it. But simple common sense (!) tells us that the only reliable scientific fact about our British leading epidemiologist team is the uncomfortable fact that it has often been wrong and by a huge margin”.

    What is it?

    If your understanding behaves in the manner of ordinary common sense (or even superstitious) what’s the use of Popper Falsifiability principle over there?

    Was this conclusion accident or caused by “undisclosed” circumstances?

    The determinations that occur in sciences are quite different from those of so-called common sense.

    6. Is there any way to say of how generally Popper Falsifiability principle comes into the picture?

    “Ferguson and his Imperial College team has little to do with science” not because “Ferguson and his Imperial College does not even attempt to produce a clear criteria for falsification” or because it is potentially NOT falsifiable by experiments or its predictions.

    7. You have mixed epidemiological science research methods with the results and scientific findings. Producing a clear criteria for falsification was not his and his team the “scientific mission and goals”.

    8. You have to switch the centre of this discussion.
    Dig to the roots. You have to ask “in what area of interest his results can be applied (to) so that it can fit his scientific mission and goals”?

    9. Coronademic is not a health issue but Economic and political issues, or maybe more, the socio-technological-economicmilitary issue.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
  111. ivan says:

    Sir Karl Popper’s “falsifiability criteria” was useful in his time to take apart self-claimed scientific theories that had their own universe of discourse. These would usually have their own coteries, ideologies and be impervious to valiant attempts to prove them wrong. These included pseudo-sciences such “scientific Marxism”, the fraudulent basis of Freudian psychonalysis and the totalitarian claims of Darwinism to be the sole explanation of life and its variety. In our age proper use of that philosophy should take apart the fevered claims of climate and epidemic modellers alike and not forgetting the cosmologists who rely on arcane mathematics to hide their ignorance .

    • Agree: Alfred
  112. @Ilya G Poimandres

    Maybe accepting that induction is a problem is the real problem with western philosophy …I have never dared to examine this option …

  113. @uradel666

    My dear , not all concepts and laws are scientific or empirically related (math, logic, metaphysics..).. Popper falsifiability principle applies only to empirical science and as Thomas Kuhn showed even empirical sciences tend to ignore the principle and stick with paradigmatic thoughts..

    What we like about Popper is his elegance .. the clarity of his thought . We look here at a guiding principle, and a motif that inspired British scientific thought…

    I do not have any doubt that Ferguson and the Imperial College do not care much about Popper, empiricism or validity… in order to find out what they do care about we need to set a criminal investigation ASAP…

    • Replies: @uradel666
  114. utu says:
    @S

    ‘I’m Here to Kill a King’ ends with view of Seagram’s Tower in Niagara Falls.

    Seagram’s=Bronfman
    Bronfman= VIP of Jewish Establishment in North America including its underworld
    Bronfman= Montreal
    Montreal has many connections (Jewish and mafia) in JFK’s conspiracy literature.
    https://www.unz.com/article/the-umbrella-man-the-sins-of-the-father-and-the-kennedy-curse/?showcomments#comment-3585273

  115. Alfred says:
    @Philip Owen

    Prof Eric Laithwaite?

    Sorry. It was so long ago that I can remember the names of very few people.

    I was already an apprentice in an electric motor factory so it came easy.

    The UK had a lot of talent at that time. After my masters in management at IC, I went to work for Lucas as a planning analyst. At the biggest factory in London at Acton. All of that is gone. It is now houses. Expensive houses. I earned twice as much as my older brother at the Lucas Electrical factory in Solihull. That motivated him to accept my advice and to go to Harvard Business School. The rest is history. 🙂

  116. utu says:

    Gilad Atzmon’s tautological sentence generating engine (TSGE) at work:

    { (Heidegger, Popper)+(Nazis, Anne Frank)+(Neil Ferguson)+(zero understanding of science)}=>{“I must be smart”=>”I must be right”)}

    {(viruses)+(Israel)+(isotopes)+(half life decay)+(zero understanding of science)}=>{(“I must be smart”)=>(“I must be right”)}

    Gilad Atzmon’s universe: chutzpah trumps reason every time. To operate TSGE all you need is chutzpah. TSGE is the only engine that beats the the first and the second laws of thermodynamics. Output BS is greater than Input BS.

  117. Alfred says:
    @Delta G

    Thank you. I cannot agree more.

    I invented an anonymous and effective way of preventing the spread of all testable Sexually-Transmitted Infections. I got a US patent in 1988. It got FDA approval. Around 30 subsequent patents cite it. It is best described as a virtual vaccine. It has contact-tracing built into it. But no pharmaceutical company was willing to talk to me. It would demolish their cash cows.

    Method of controlling transmission of defects

    Doctors don’t like it because it would “promote promiscuity”. I guess doctors think that AIDS is some sort of divine punishment for homosexuals. In reality, it would also diminish their income so this saintliness is really greed.

    If I had a few million, I would go ahead and do it somewhere like Moscow – where the Western media is not in total control. Within a few years, it would solve all their STI problems.

    I am sure the media in the West would portray it as another fiendish plot of Mr Putin. One can only laugh at the imbeciles.

    Big Pharma is making a grab for your testicles at this very moment with proposed “cures”, “vaccines” and “certificates” – for coronavirus. Later, they can extend it to any other infection they care to spread.

    Since that experience, I have not divulged any more of my patentable concepts.

    • Replies: @eD
  118. Wielgus says:
    @Tsar Nicholas

    This could be interpreted as evidence that Covid-19 is not that dangerous, as a scientific adviser who is supposedly an expert on it seems to have felt breaking his own lockdown rules was not a big risk to take.
    Totally unlike the characters in The Decameron , who fled to a bolthole in the remote countryside to tell stories aimed at passing the time during lockdown. But the plague really was a deadly illness.

  119. Alfred says:
    @Tsar Nicholas

    after breaking the quarantine on more than one occcassion to visit a married lover

    As soon as I saw this guy’s picture and his way of talking, I mentally categorized him as homosexual. I think many of us do that subconsciously.

    I believe that this is a concocted story to get him off that committee. He has too much explaining to do. It falls into the same category as prince Charles and Boris Johnson saying that they had caught the virus.

    The woman he is allegedly having an affair with is in an “open marriage”. I guess she is being paid off by Bill Gates.

    Please do some critical thinking.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  120. geokat62 says:

    While Karl Popper is well known for his Falsibility Principle, he was equally known for his philosophical treatise, The Open Society and Its Enemies.

    Although his scientific principle was benign in nature, the same cannot be said about his philosophy. This can clearly be inferred by the name György Schwartz chose to bestow upon his organization, Open Society Foundations.

    Karl Popper’s book was the inspiration for the OSF, which is dedicated to the destruction of Western societies by promoting mass immigration and mass miscegenation, for the purpose of advancing the interests of his people in the perennial struggle against antisemitism.

    Thanks, Karl!

    • Replies: @ivan
  121. Miro23 says:
    @Skeptikal

    Hearing these fragments of untrue narratives and letting them pass is another ‘training” in accepting a false version of reality. Of course what option do we have. Shout at the TV?

    If you live in a world of MSM fake narratives there’s not much you can do apart from personally disengage.

    However, reality doesn’t go away. Fake narratives are just a bad adaption to it. For example post WW2 East Germany (Soviet run) vs. West Germany (Anglo-capitalist run). Same people, different systems, each with its own narrative of economic and social relations.

    As it happened, the Anglo-capitalist version produced happier and more productive people and East Germany had to build a wall to stop East Germans escaping to the West. IOW they had to build a wall around their fake narrative, although it was only a temporary expedient, as the whole maladapted Soviet edifice collapsed in 1989.

    NOTE – Post WW2 Germany was dealing with Anglo-Capitalism, not Zio-Capitalism. Germany is now labouring under the Zio economic/social Political Correct variant which is destroying it as surely as Soviet central planning previously did the East.

    The present day alternatives are Western Zio-Globalism (debt + PC + Israel First + wars + open frontiers) and N.East Asian Sino-Nationalism (education + development + national manufacturing + closed frontiers).

    The Chinese public are generally satisfied with their lives and think that things are going well – in contrast to the US public who see economic stagnation, social decline + record economic inequality. Wealth channeled to an elite who despise them (deplorables).

  122. Alfred says:
    @aspnaz

    Alice Gast, the president of Imperial College should tender her resignation for lending her institution’s credibility to such a scoundrel and for bringing the whole institution into disrepute.

    I studied civil engineering at Imperial College – 1968-71.

    I gave up on the reputation of the place when not a single person pointed out that the 3 buildings at 9/11 were blown up. If you believe in Newton’s Laws of Motion, you cannot believe the government and BBC story. They made a choice to keep their jobs over their integrity and self-respect.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  123. Alfred says:
    @geokat62

    If you believe this story, you have been suckered. The guy had to be extracted from the government committee so that he does not have to explain himself. It was all contrived. obvious.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Brás Cubas
  124. geokat62 says:
    @Alfred

    If you believe this story, you have been suckered.

    I must admit, I took it at face value. Having said that, I’m willing to reconsider should sufficient evidence come out to support your hypothesis.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  125. @Ilya G Poimandres

    “Australia and NZ have population densities like 12th century England btw.”

    That’s pretty good news for dealing with this virus, spread by person to person contact. With a disease spread by common wild or domestic animals, not so good. 14th century England was sparsely populated but lost a third of the population when the Black Death arrived.

    Alfred – what’s your 9/11 take then? I’m pretty sure some planes hit the building. Trouble is it’s not something you can run controls on.

  126. @Alfred

    She (that photo is very flattering btw) works for Avaaz, faux-left globalists with opaque funding, although they were kickstarted by MoveOn and various NGOs including OSF.

    Interesting portrait of the founder here.

    https://www.1843magazine.com/content/features/robert-butler/man-behind-avaaz

    Patel holds Canadian and British passports. His father is a Kenyan-Indian, his mother English with Russian and Jewish ancestry. His great-grandparents include a cantor in a synagogue in Warsaw, a seamstress for Queen Victoria, and a merchant in Gujarat.

    (PPE at Oxford)

    After Oxford, he went to Harvard, where his graduate thesis—on non-military protection of civilians in areas of conflict—was supervised by Michael Ignatieff, the intellectual broadcaster who became a Canadian politician. At the John F. Kennedy school of government, internships are part of the course, and Patel, typically, interned at the United Nations for the then secretary-general, Kofi Annan.

    As you do. I imagine people who get those gigs are selected (groomed?) very carefully indeed.

    “As well as the UN, Patel has worked—either directly or as a consultant—for the International Crisis Group, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Gates Foundation, Care International and the International Centre for Transitional Justice”

    • Replies: @Alfred
  127. ivan says:
    @geokat62

    I don’t see how you can blame Popper for what his self-proclained disciple Soros made of his books. How is writing that Plato was an inspiration to the totalitarians equivalent to being in support of open or even closed borders?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  128. Wielgus says:
    @geokat62

    I am inclined to take it at face value unless new info emerges. Do as I say, not do as I do is an old Powers That Be rule. And if the events are as they have been portrayed, it is a pointer that Mr Lockdown does not think the disease is as dangerous as the advice he gave suggests.

  129. eD says:
    @Alfred

    For people who don’t want to click on the link the commentator provided, I did and skimmed through it, and the idea is that if you are about to have sex with someone (or otherwise get s transmission of bodily fluids), either party can perform a test, which I assume would be portable, on what communicable diseases they are carrying and share that information with the other party.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  130. geokat62 says:
    @ivan

    How is writing that Plato was an inspiration to the totalitarians equivalent to being in support of open or even closed borders?

    Good question. If you are against closed societies and in favour of open ones, the next logical step in this thinking is to simply open them up completely.

    In the view of George Soros, you can’t get any more open than a world without any archaic countries – i.e., a world of “internationalism”:

    For Soros, the goal of contemporary human existence is to establish a world defined not by sovereign states, but by a global community whose constituents understand that everyone shares an interest in freedom, equality and prosperity. In his opinion, the creation of such a global open society is the only way to ensure that humanity overcomes the existential challenges of climate change and nuclear proliferation.

    You might find these three sources of interest.

    [MORE]

    1. Excerpts from, Karl Popper’s “Open Society” Philosophy (George Soros Mentor):

    George Soros claims as his mentor the philosopher Karl Popper, author of The Open Society and its Enemies. “He influenced me with his writings and his thinking,”…

    George Soros, who first encountered The Open Society as Popper’s student at the London School of Economics, founded the Open Society Institute to propagate Popper’s ideas, particularly in Eastern Europe…

    The key to Gramsci’s formula for revolution centered on the idea of breaking what he called the “hegemony” or mind-control exercised by the ruling capitalists over the masses. Bourgeois societies were ruled, Gramsci believed, by educating the citizenry that their accommodation of the moral, political, and cultural values defined by the governing system was in their best interests. Hence, Gramsci designed a “reversal strategy” that would silently challenge the existing culture and value-systems that dominated bourgeois governance. That is to say, his formula was based on an ideological struggle that would transform a whole range of activities in civil society, including Judeo-Christian values, the family, schools, unions, and politics and popular trust in the existing government.

    Like Popper, Gramsci rejected the Marxist view of historical inevitability or stages in the dialectic of history. Instead, he argued for mobilizing an alliance of social forces in the cause of Marxist revolution. These are the same forces being funded by George Soros in the name of creating an “open society” in the U.S…

    Although some have tried to distance Popper from socialism, his embrace by Soros and his funding of the modern-day progressive movement seem to demonstrate that those committed to make the “open society” a reality see no problem with combining the two.

    https://mediachecker.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/karl-poppers-open-society-philosophy-george-soros-mentor/

    2. Excerpts from, The George Soros philosophy – and its fatal flaw:

    Feeling stifled in newly communist Hungary, in 1947 Soros immigrated to the UK, where he studied at the London School of Economics and got to know the Austrian-born philosopher Karl Popper, who became his greatest interlocutor and central intellectual influence…

    Soros’s thought and philanthropic career are organised around the idea of the “open society,” a term developed and popularised by Popper in his classic work The Open Society and Its Enemies…

    … in 1947 Soros immigrated to the UK, where he studied at the London School of Economics and got to know the Austrian-born philosopher Karl Popper, who became his greatest interlocutor and central intellectual influence…

    … Soros’s defining intellectual principle is his internationalism. For Soros, the goal of contemporary human existence is to establish a world defined not by sovereign states, but by a global community whose constituents understand that everyone shares an interest in freedom, equality and prosperity. In his opinion, the creation of such a global open society is the only way to ensure that humanity overcomes the existential challenges of climate change and nuclear proliferation.

    Unlike Gates, whose philanthropy focuses mostly on ameliorative projects such as eradicating malaria, Soros truly wants to transform national and international politics and society. Whether or not his vision can survive the wave of antisemitic, Islamophobic and xenophobic rightwing nationalism ascendant in the US and Europe remains to be seen. What is certain is that Soros will spend the remainder of his life attempting to make sure it does…

    He was further disturbed that many nations in the EU, from the UK to Poland, witnessed the re-emergence of a rightwing ethnonationalism thought lost to history…

    The open society envisions a world in which everyone recognises each other’s humanity and engages each other as equals.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/06/the-george-soros-philosophy-and-its-fatal-flaw

    3. Excerpts from, George Soros: Open Society and Open Borders

    Open borders are a stepping stone in his efforts to put into action his open-society philosophy…

    He adds that the open society concept is highly sophisticated, and much more difficult to work with than the more primitive beliefs, such as, “my country (or my company or my family), right or wrong.”…

    To support his belief that the human mind cannot fathom ultimate truth and reality, Soros apparently advocates the deconstruction of nations by educating the masses in open-society jargon…

    This mixed brew includes more taxes (but not on the Soros fortune), increased government spending, open borders, immigration entitlements for legal and illegal aliens, devaluing citizenship but promoting feminism, free abortions, affirmative action, and sex and gender rights…

    A current tool of deconstruction is the immigration chaos caused by 20 million illegal aliens residing in the United States. Add to this the proposed U.S. Senate immigration legislation supported by Soros-funded special interest groups. Open-society advocates realize that open borders can only mean a devaluation of citizenship, of voting, of patriotism, and love of country. Open borders mean equal opportunity for dismantling the United States.

    Soros equates the Bush administration and conservatives to communists and Nazis. From Popper’s theory that communism and fascism were philosophically linked, Soros goes a step further and declares that America is an open society that does not understand the concept of an open society and does not abide by its principles. According to him, U.S. democracy does not recognize that the ultimate truth is beyond our reach. In recent years, Soros has moved radically to the left both in his philosophy and politics.

    In The Age of Fallibility, Soros gives immigration short shrift, saying that Europe, with an aging population, needs immigrants as an economic necessity. Soros brags that while he is a U.S. citizen, he is also a European. For open-society advocates, citizenship has little meaning.

    Read Newsmax: Newsmax.com – Breaking news from around the globe: U.S. news, politics, world, health, finance, video, science, technology, live news stream
    Urgent: Do you approve of Pres. Trump’s job performance? Vote Here Now!

    https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/687006?section=Pre-2008&keywords=George-SorosOpen-Society&year=2006&month=07&date=25&id=687006&oref=duckduckgo.com

    • Thanks: ivan
    • Replies: @ivan
  131. CSFurious says:

    The “lockdowns” were based on a lie. It is obvious that they are about politics now versus “public health”.

    • Agree: Alfred
  132. @Adrian E.

    No RO or any other meaningful statistic regarding this “outbreak” has been compiled.

  133. My comments on Ferguson’s model at the time.

  134. Wally says:
    @Saggy

    Absurdly blaming Trump debunked:

    – US has much lower mortality rate than Belgium, UK, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Brazil, Iran, Canada, Mexico, Indonesia, Romania, Egypt, Hungary, Ireland, Algeria, Slovenia, on & on it goes, source: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

    – The US has the highest testing rate in the world, by far. Slam dunk.

    recommended:
    California and New York sowed the seeds of their destruction
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/california_and_new_york_sowed_the_seeds_of_their_destruction.html
    Once again, Trump was right and the media were wrong
    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/once_again_trump_was_right_and_the_media_were_wrong.html
    The NIH had 13 Years to Prepare for Coronavirus But Still Didn’t: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/03/no_author/the-nih-had-13-years-to-prepare-for-coronavirus-but-still-didnt/
    Democrats Who Blame Trump Sang a different song a month ago: https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/dear_democrats_who_blame_trump_you_sang_a_different_song_a_month_ago.html
    more:
    CV-19 timeline:

    [MORE]

    Jan 14, WHO declared no evidence of human-to-human transmission of virus.
    – Jan 21, Dr. Fauci makes this statement about the Coronavirus: ““This is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States should be worried about right now,”
    – Jan 23, At an emergency committee convened by the World Health Organization, the WHO says that the Wuhan coronavirus does not yet constitute a public health emergency of international concern.
    – Jan 28, Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom in Beijing. At the meeting, Xi and the WHO agree to send a team of international experts, including US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention staff, to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak.
    – Jan 29, The White House announces the formation of a new task force that will help monitor and contain the spread of the virus.
    – Jan 31, Trump bans travel from Wuhan, press cites “experts” claiming it is counterproductive.
    – Feb 1, Florence holds “Hug a Chinese Person Day”.
    – Feb 4, President Trump dedicates part of State of the Union Address to the Coronavirus issue. Nancy Pelosi tore up her copy of this address on national television.
    – Feb 9, NYC holds Chinatown parade with assurances of no danger from the mayor
    – Feb 16, Dr. Fauci says “Risk of coronavirus in USA is ‘minuscule’; skip mask and wash hands”
    – Feb 23, 1st evidence of community transfer within U.S.
    – Feb 24, Pelosi says to shop more: “‘Come to Chinatown … come join us”
    – Feb 25, Mardi Gras was held with few people sounding warnings
    – Feb 26, Pence takes over task force, daily briefings begin.
    – Feb 26, Fauci said: “Travel restrictions become almost irrelevant because you can’t keep out the entire world.”
    – Feb 29, Fauci said that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large, ‘Going to Malls, Movie Theaters, Gym Okay’
    – March 1, just 42 confirmed cases in U.S.
    – March 3, NYC mayor encourages New Yorkers to go to the movies.
    – March 5, NYC mayor rides the subway to assure people it is safe to do so.
    – March 9, Fauci told the country it was perfectly safe for healthy Americans to take a cruise and to hold campaign rallies.
    – March 11, WHO acknowledged a pandemic scale virus
    – March 12, 2020: In contrast to his February 26 remarks, Fauci said that he believed certain travel restrictions have “absolutely” helped with the prevention of the spread of the coronavirus. “I think it absolutely has,” Fauci said. “I believe if we did not do that with China early on …”
    Fauci also called the travel restriction involving Europe a “prudent choice.”
    – April 11, Fauci claimed during an interview with Fox News’s Jesse Watters that it was “in January” when he believed that this was a problem Americans needed to worry about, which conflicts with several of his previous remarks made that month and the months following, including his remarks on the Today Show in February.
    ====
    Hospitals Paid Extra to List Patients as COVID19 & 3X as Much if the Patient on Ventilator: https://principia-scientific.org/hospitals-paid-extra-to-list-patients-as-covid19-3x-as-much-if-the-patient-on-ventilator/
    “Senator Dr. Scott Jensen: Right now Medicare is determining that if you have a COVID-19 admission to the hospital you get $13,000. If that COVID-19 patient goes on a ventilator you get $39,000, three times as much. “

    • Replies: @anon
  135. anon[161] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wally

    Wally wrote-

    US has much lower mortality rate than Belgium, UK, France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Brazil, Iran, Canada, Mexico, Indonesia, Romania, Egypt, Hungary, Ireland, Algeria, Slovenia…

    ????? What’s your definition of rate? (Alternatively, what’re ya smokin’?)

    USA – deaths per million population – 224
    Iran – d/m – 76
    Hungary -d/m – 39
    Egypt – d/m -5

    As for testing, USA leads in absolute terms, but not per capita. In absolute terms, we’re way out in the lead on deaths… 74,000 and counting.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

  136. @Philip Owen

    Imperial is considered by most as the finest Environmental University in the World. It goes to show you just how far off some of these models can be. Taleb on his twitter account is having a blast with these jokers as well as the idiot Epidemiologists.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  137. @Tony Hall

    From what I can see from inside the academy– and technically I’m still there post-retirement as Professor Emeritus—

    You have been suspended laughed at and disgraced from academia as a total fraud and nut job. With your 9/11 and other Jew hater conspiracy theories.

    You are not an academic, you are not a Holocaust denier or pro Palestinian activist. You are not pro or against BDS, you have no rational ideas to discern or discuss.. You are an irrational Jew hating racist. Racist have no business talking about free speech and no place in academics.

    Did the Jews cause Covid? Oh excuse me the Mossad? If ever a career deserved to be ruined it was yours for your audacious attacks on Jews and Judaism sans facts. Like a hot air ballon you feel back to earth with nothing to hold onto but your dick. Oh too bad for you, you racist.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Andrew Blair
  138. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    You are an irrational Jew hating racist.

    Racist? He may be a race realist, which is not inherently sinful when compared to Jewish Supremacists who – rather than making distinctions on the basis of race – prefer to make them on the basis of souls, divine and animalistic. I’ll let you guess whose souls are on the level of animals, goy.

    Racist have no business talking about free speech and no place in academics.

    Rich, coming from someone who supports Jewish Supremacist Organizations (JSOs) that have clamped down on free speech at colleges by pushing for a presidential EO and on the internet by pushing big tech companies to censor and deplatform dissident voices.

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  139. ivan says:
    @geokat62

    I did not know of the deeper connections. Thanks again.

  140. @geokat62

    Were you one of the militia dudes with army fatigues and semi automatic machine guns storming the capitol state houses for freedom?
    You would defend a POS like Hall? Somewhere in that brain with JOS, JOS, you cannot discern the rational from the absurd. The internet did not turn out like we hoped. There are limits most can agree on. Blaming Jews and only Jews and Judaism for the problems of the world is prima facia racism. Holding Jews to a double standard is twisting logic designed to cause hate is also racism. You are stuck in a paradigm of irrationality not to see beyond KMac and Jews. Put KMac down and read and study other ideas, he has been discredited. There are many more non Jews that are anti white, the Jews. There are limits to what is acceptable by all fair minded people. You cross the line.

    This just in from the times RE: Facebook.
    They are putting together a panel of over 2000 people of different backgrounds to review content.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/06/opinion/facebook-oversight-board.html?referringSource=articleShare

    Today, the first set of members of the oversight board is being announced. We are the four co-chairs. After Facebook selected us, we considered a large number of individuals for the oversight board, including those recommended by the public, before we interviewed and ultimately approved the 16 other members being announced today.

    The board members come from different professional, cultural and religious backgrounds and have various political viewpoints. Some of us have been publicly critical of Facebook; some of us haven’t. But all of us have training and experience that can help the board in considering the most significant content decisions facing online communities. We are all independent of Facebook. And we are all committed to freedom of expression within the framework of international norms of human rights. We will make decisions based on those principles and on the effects on Facebook users and society, without regard to the economic, political or reputational interests of the company.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  141. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Were you one of the militia dudes with army fatigues and semi automatic machine guns storming the capitol state houses for freedom?

    Lol, nothing wrong with people defending their 1st Amendment rights, sans the military paraphernalia.

    You would defend a POS like Hall?

    Don’t know much about him, tbh. Care to elaborate why you think he’s a POS?

    Put KMac down and read and study other ideas, he has been discredited.

    Discredited? By whom? By the philosophy PhD candidate, Nathan Cofnas? You obviously didn’t bother reading KMac’s point-by-point rebuttal to his criticisms?

    There are many more non Jews that are anti white, the Jews.

    Yes, of course. Thanks to the efforts of JSOs, that is indeed the case. Take blacks, for instance. They blame whites for the slave trade, but few of them realize the significant role played by Jews in this tragic affair. Just imagine if more of them became aware of this role by reading NOI’s The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews.

    There are limits to what is acceptable by all fair minded people. You cross the line.

    I cross the line? Spare me. I previously posted the testimony of Maria Farmer and I noticed you had no reaction to what she had to say about the treatment she received at the hands of Supremacist Jews. According to Fran, only goys can cross the line.

    This just in from the times RE: Facebook.
    They are putting together a panel of over 2000 people of different backgrounds to review content.

    Oh, how nice. FB has reconvened the Grand Inquisitors to decide what speech is hate speech. If you’re a passionate defender of free speech, there is no such thing as hate speech. It is merely speech that some people hate. Let the little people express themselves, because as the assassinated Kennedy warned:

    “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”

    • Replies: @Tony Hall
  142. @Skeptikal

    Nice comment, and good question: how to increase the debate mass to the point where challenging the gaslighting is safe. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Thanks for taking a bite Skeptikal.

  143. Tony Hall says:
    @geokat62

    What’s a POS?

    If you’re interested geokat 62, below is a link to a web site looking at aspects of the case to which I referred. There’s lots in Andrew Blair’s web creation if you poke around a bit. For two years I co-hosted with Kevin Barrett False Flag Weekly News. For me this regular webcast, now removed from You Tube by the “Grand Inquisitors as you put it, was a labour of love and a public service giving commentary and background to news of the week.

    https://academicfreedomanthonyhall.ca/comment-page-1/

    • Replies: @geokat62
  144. @Fran Taubman

    Your reply to Hall’s comment seems rather hysterical to me. What do you actually know of Tony Hall, or are you just joining the “Augh, an antisemite!” crowd because everyone else is doing so?

    In any case, are you able to address the points raised by Atzmon and Hall:
    1. Funding has distorted our institutions’ ability to help us understand reality.
    2. The Israel Lobby has distorted our institutions’ ability to help us understand reality.
    3. The pandemic should be treated as a potentially criminal act, as he says in “A Viral Pandemic or a Crime Scene?” (https://gilad.online/writings/2020/4/11/a-viral-pandemic-or-a-crime-scene).

    If you agree with point 3, do you also agree with Atzmon in “A Viral Pandemic or a Crime Scene?” that

    Israel, with its extensive biological warfare laboratories and WMD facilities must also be subject to thorough scrutiny.

    or is there good reason to exempt it from such scrutiny?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  145. Alfred says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Alfred – what’s your 9/11 take then?

    1- Nothing, not even one brick, will fly up vertically in a fire. There has to be an equal and opposite force – an explosion.

    2- Steel framed skyscrapers have never collapsed before – there are thousands of them around the world – let alone 3 on one day.

    3- The 2 larger buildings had molten steel in their basements 14 days later. It could only be “small” nuclear explosions.

    4- If you look at the video of Building 7 going down in 11 seconds, you will see that the structure in the middle of the roof collapses before the outer shell. That means that the core of the building, which holds up the building and where the lifts reside , went first. It was clearly blown up near the ground floor.

    Here is a video of a fire in a steel-framed building of 49 stories. It happened this week in Sharjah, the UAE. You will see nothing flying sideways or upwards. The building did not collapse. It bears no resemblance whatsoever to what happened to the 3 buildings at the WTC on 9/11

    And here is the almost intact building after the fire was put out

    • Replies: @S
  146. geokat62 says:
    @Tony Hall

    If you’re interested geokat 62, below is a link to a web site looking at aspects of the case to which I referred.

    Thanks for the link, Prof. Very informative materials.

    What’s a POS?

    I think Fran unwittingly tried to pay you a compliment. POS stands for a Person of Stature.

    Truth be told, the real POSs are people like Michael Mostyn, CEO of B’nai Brith Canada and leaders of other Jewish Supremacist Organizations (JSOs), who hang a Sword of Damocles over our heads to try and intimidate us by threatening to end our careers by calling us vile “raaaaacisssts” if we don’t agree to keep our mouths shut. They want to prevent us from informing the other frightened sheep that (((they))) are the real supremacists, not us, as Jeffrey Epstein’s sex slave, Maria Farmer, so bravely informed us.

    These JSOs have made a deep commitment of achieving the goal of Never Again. This effectively means that no Western nation can ever again be an ethno-state, because it will inevitably lead to fascism, which inevitably leads to genocide. Can’t have that (just ignore the Jewish ethno-state, for the time being).

    So, these people are determined to see to it that Western nations eagerly embrace mass immigration and the attendant glories of multiculturalism … and they sell it to us by pushing the marketing tagline they developed specifically for this purpose: Diversity Is Our Strength. NB – they forgot to tell us who the implied “Our” is in this slogan.

    But this lie, like all other big lies, is slowly being exposed. And it is predominantly because of brave souls like yourself, who are not deterred from speaking the truth.

    You, and others like you, are a shining beacon for the rest of Western peoples, who will slowly follow in your footsteps.

    Keep fighting the good fight, Professor!

  147. Alfred says:
    @eD

    the idea is that if you are about to have sex with someone (or otherwise get s transmission of bodily fluids), either party can perform a test, which I assume would be portable, on what communicable diseases they are carrying and share that information with the other party

    Not quite.

    The idea is for people to voluntarily get a card. The card would only have their photo / palm print, a number like on credit cards (16 digits) and security features to make it difficult to forge.

    With the card, you go to a testing centre where they check that the card belongs to you (photo / palm print). They note the card number and take your blood sample etc. You go away. When the result is ready, it is put against your card number on the internet. To read your results, you enter your card number and your password. Your proposed partner can take a look. He/she can reciprocate. If you wish, your numbers can be linked. If one day he/she tests positive, you will have to get tested again to ensure that you are in the clear.

    Some points:

    1- If the server is hacked, no one can do anything with the data since it has nothing personal in it – just numbers and test results.

    2- It has longitudinal data. If you only got tested for HIV once and yesterday, the result is not as useful as if you have been in the system for 5 years.

    3- It has contact tracing built into it.

    4- Tests for HIV cost almost nothing. They are fast and extremely accurate. Orders of magnitude less than the cost of getting infected.

    5- By destroying your card, you break all links to the system. You cannot ask for a replacement. 🙂

    Obviously, it can be extended to any testable condition. But I think STI’s is quite enough for starters.

    If you followed what I have been writing here about networks, you will understand that this concept stops the super spreader in his/her tracks.

    Over time, these infections will disappear – HIV, HSV, HPV, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, hepatitis B and trichomoniasis. If any new testable disease comes along, it would be added to this list with ease.

    It would make Big Pharma cry real tears.

  148. Alfred says:
    @niteranger

    Taleb on his twitter account is having a blast with these jokers as well as the idiot Epidemiologists

    Taleb is the idiot. He knows nothing about epidemics. The independent epidemiologists have been correct. It is cunts like Bill Gates and that stooge of his from the WHO who have been knowingly spreading false information.

    Taleb wrote that there would be a fat tail in the infection rate. Complete crap. Infections crash post peak. It is not a Poisson distribution. It is a network. You can see that in countries like Germany that have real unfalsified data.

    I have great respect for Taleb. My last name is the same as his first name. But he sees fat tails everywhere. he is a brilliant one-trick pony. 🙂

    • Replies: @niteranger
  149. geokat62 says:

    This just in from the times RE: Facebook.
    They are putting together a panel of over 2000 people of different backgrounds to review content.

    Meet the Grand Inquisitor:

  150. @Alfred

    I don’t know if it’s a Poisson distribution either because that usually means there is a constant mean rate. The environment the virus is in tends to change too much but you are right about false data. Also, most epidemiologists independent or not haven’t been close. Gates is just a rich idiot who wants to control the world in a corporate stronghold. WHO has been incompetent for a long time and so is the CDC. The present head of WHO is beyond incompetent if that is possible and has a background in health.

    He lacks an understanding of medical issues and is a shill for “minorities.” I would wait for all the data (if it’s possible to get accurate data) to see where the tails lie.

  151. @Andrew Blair

    My field of study is Cosmic Jew Hatred a particular field aside from normal antisemitism, like Jews are pushy or Zionist are racist etc. There are many people or anti semites that fall into the latter category that really do not interest me that much.

    Tony Hall is a prima facia example of a cosmic Jew hater. A cosmic Jew hater asserts a sort of primordial evil to Jews and Judaism, not specific to any one incident, like the plague or a war. But all world tragedies are cause by Jews who are preternatural evil.

    This Medieval Cosmic Jew hatred has recently been modernized verbatim by Islamist who are frustrated by their own failures and inability to compete with the Jews for hegemony in Israel. The Jews are wining in every conceivable way. Much has been written on the failures of the once brilliant innovative Islamic caliphates.

    The global left has seized on the Islamic dogma as it rhymes with anti-imperial, anti colonial ( the Arabs and natives and the Jews as western interloper) global ideas. on global views carry many crazy ideas. It is funny to watch extreme left coalesce with WN around Jew hatred. For instance the compliments to Tony Hall on this page by @geokat62who is WN racist (Jew Hater). He is into the supremacy of whites over other races and blames Jews for the fall of the white race. Ask him.

    Below is the link that I read about Tony Hall and why I label him a Cosmic Jew Hater. His “Jews did 9/11” combined with Holocaust denial sort of sealed the deal for me. irregardless of the false FB post attributed to him, that was paramount in getting him fired.
    https://albertaviews.ca/freedom-loathing-lethbridge/

    Hall was promoted to full professor of globalization studies in 2008. At a senior professor’s pay tier, his annual salary by 2015 had reached over $150,000 plus some $25,000 in other compensation. In YouTube videos, Hall has said that 2008 was also when he “got very interested in studying 9/11 and saw, without a shadow of a doubt, that the facts that were presented us, the so-called facts, are not true. That 9/11 was a concocted event.” After 2008 Hall spoke about 9/11 both off-campus and in his U of L classes. In a public speech in Lethbridge he said the World Trade Centre buildings were destroyed, at least in part, by a “controlled demolition,” and that the “objective”—by US and Israeli neo-conservatives—“was to create a licence, an opening to conduct warfare” in the Middle East. When reached by phone, on May 25, 2018, Hall said: “There is no consensus on who did what on 9/11… I think this is something we need to deal with at the academy, at the university.”

    And good luck with exposing the criminal Jews for spreading Covid -19. Cosmic Jew haters weave conspiracies to convince the world to blame the Jews. You want so badly to prove that Jews cause disease you will cobble together phony information from the internet, which is so easy to do. Today you can substrate almost any argument with information on the internet. That is a huge problem as so much misinformation is being passed on as facts. You can find facts that there are martians are our neighbors. You can prove any theory.

    Academic conspirators with an agenda who support their ideas with shoddy scholarship are the worst.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Andrew Blair
  152. anon[161] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Just for you Frannie, in the interest of helping everyne down their own slope –

    ….there is no shortage of online programming right now – but … this one very timely and impactful program – called Hate of Pandemic Proportion. Sixth and I Synagogue is offering a deep dive series on anti-semitism and hate featuring (a client of mine) Integrity First for America who are literally suing Nazis in a case going through the courts right now. Amy Spitalnick, Executive Director of Integrity First for America (IFA), and Rabbi Shira of Sixth and I will explore how far-right extremist groups are exploiting this pandemic to spread fear and hate online and off and learn about measures we can take to stop it and to protect ourselves and vulnerable populations. Spitalnick will also discuss IFA’s groundbreaking lawsuit against the leaders of the white supremacist movement for the August 2017 Charlottesville violence.

    RSVP through the link;
    https://www.sixthandi.org/event/hate-of-pandemic-proportions/

    • Thanks: Fran Taubman
  153. @Fran Taubman

    I’m not sure why you want to focus on the character of Tony Hall rather than the substance of Atzmon’s piece, but, all the same, may I ask you a few questions:

    1) Where did Hall say that “Jews did 9/11”? In the piece you quote from Alberta Views it says that Hall thinks that 9/11 was done by “US and Israeli neo-conservatives” – though that’s a paraphrase and not a quote from Hall. Do you infer from that that he thinks “Jews” did it? To me it sounds like you want to distort Hall’s views so that you can impute Cosmic Jew Hatred to him.

    2) Have you studied the evidence in favour of the US government narrative that 9/11 was done by al Qaeda, and been satisfied that the evidence fully supports that narrative?

    3) If the answer to 2 is “no” and, given the fact that several million in the Middle East have been killed by the “war on terror,” do you think that the state of Israel should be exempted from investigation as to who did 9/11?

    4) Tony has said that there should be open debate on all subjects. Do you infer from that that he has denied the Jewish Holocaust?

    5) Do you condemn the sort of libel that Hall was subjected to when his Facebook wall was hacked in order to put up a viciously antisemitic message?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  154. geokat62 says:

    The global left has seized on the Islamic dogma as it rhymes with anti-imperial, anti colonial ( the Arabs and natives and the Jews as western interloper) global ideas. on global views carry many crazy ideas. It is funny to watch extreme left coalesce with WN around Jew hatred.

    How ironic that Frannie would condemn “The Left” when this weapon was forged by Jewish Supremacist Organizations themselves to undermine the pillars of traditional Western societies, whose peoples were deemed to be too authoritative and needed to be replaced by a new breed of people, the fabled “progressives.” But, once the dismantling was carried out, these JSOs decided to pivot away from these useful idiots because they were no longer willing to be Progressives Except for Palestine (PEPs). That’s why they destroyed lefties like Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, and anyone else who might come along and think that progressive policies should by applied uniformly to all offenders, including the Apartheid state.

    For instance the compliments to Tony Hall on this page by @geokat62who is WN racist (Jew Hater). He is into the supremacy of whites over other races and blames Jews for the fall of the white race. Ask him.

    I also complimented our good host, Ron Unz, after he wrote several astonishing articles for his American Pravda series related to contentious topics such as The Shoah, 9/11, and the JFK assassination. Does that make me a vile nationalist (who happens to be white) for agreeing with most of his conclusions?

    No, Frannie. You still have not responded to the explosive testimony of Maria Farmer, Jeffrey Epstein’s sex slave. Poor Maria had to endure repeated humiliation at the hands of her Jewish masters who treated her like dirt. In the words of Maria… “I don’t know any white supremacists, but I know a lot of Jewish supremacists.”

    You see, I’m just a dumb goy who still thinks that ethno-nationalism is the natural order of things and would like to see our homelands restored to their natural order. You seem to like ethno-nationalism for your people, but you wish to deny it for my people. I wonder why?

    Unfortunately for you, this manifest contradiction can no longer be perpetuated as an increasing number of goys are waking up to the realization that diversity is not a strength. They’re realizing it’s a disaster that JSOs are responsible for orchestrating.

    It’s just a matter of time before things reach a tipping point… and there’s nothing you or JSOs can do to prevent it… and you know it.

    So, spit out all the nasty names you can muster – racist, antisemite, Jew-hater – because all of them have lost their sting.

    And remember… when you mess with peoples’ homelands, don’t expect them to be overjoyed.

    • Agree: Alfred
    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  155. Big Tim says:

    With Fauci having been at NIH for what, 52 years, and head of his division for 36 years, he must be on first name basis with every pharmaceutical exec in the world. How did this happen for someone tonget so much power?

    • Replies: @Alfred
  156. Alfred says:
    @Big Tim

    Fauci … How did this happen for someone to get so much power?

    Why don’t you ask Bill Gates?

    Here is what the Jews want you to think. In general, it is a good idea to believe the opposite of what they want you to think. It is a matter of self-preservation. 🙂

    Stop Spreading Lies About Dr. Fauci and Bill Gates (Jewish Journal)

  157. S says:
    @Alfred

    Steel framed skyscrapers have never collapsed before..

    Yes, they do, sometimes…at least in the movies. 😉

    In the 1933 MGM movie Men Must Fight which ‘foretells’ world war starting in 1940 between the US and ‘Eurasia’ (ie specifically Germany, Japan, and Italy), the Empire State Building in New York has a spectacular collapse after an aerial assault. [See you-tube]

    ‘It has the eerie feeling of a 9/11 analogy, 80 years too soon.’

    https://pre-code.com/men-must-fight-1933-review-with-diana-wynyard-lewis-stone-and-phillips-holmes/

  158. Telepath says:

    Just one simple thing to add here:

    If Sweden was just inhabited by us Swedes, and if you had no people past 80, more or less NONE would have died by this.

    If I enter a bus with only one unknown passenger my instinct is to sit at the other side of the wagon. Everyone does. Not saying that’s good, we pretty much hate other people.

  159. utu says:

    Sweden has about 7 times higher death per million toll than other Scandinavian countries that implemented strict social distancing and lockdowns.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  160. @Andrew Blair

    5) Do you condemn the sort of libel that Hall was subjected to when his Facebook wall was hacked in order to put up a viciously antisemitic message?

    Yes I condemn that and I mentioned that in my original post.

    For questions 1) thru 4):
    Fuck off I am not going to play semantic games with you over words like “Lobby”, Zionist and Jews. Halls accusations and defense have been played out with many other people with similar accusations. My guidelines on Jew hatred are the same as the HRA’s definition. Engaging in many of accusations listed below puts you in that special realm of the preternatural evil Jew. The dehumanization of Jews and Judaism into objects of an evil power structure.

    * Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
    * Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
    * Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
    * Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
    * Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
    * Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
    * Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
    * Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
    * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
    * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

    • Replies: @Andrew Blair
  161. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    Sweden has about 7 times higher death per million toll than other Scandinavian countries that implemented strict social distancing and lockdowns.

    3,175 deaths out of a population of over 10 million.

    The biggest explanatory variable that explains the difference in the death rate between Sweden and its neighbours is the size of their nursing homes. Swedish nursing homes are much larger than those of its neighbours. Given that the majority of COVID deaths are occurring in nursing homes, it’s little wonder Sweden has a higher death rate.

    The other reason for the higher death rate is exactly to be expected… herd immunity. Swedish authorities believe they are approaching herd immunity in the Stockholm and surrounding area.

    How close are its neighbours to approaching herd immunity? What do you think will happen to its neighbours when they finally come out of lockdown?

    The best time to compare these numbers will be when 2020 has come and gone.

    The other factor to consider is the economic impact of shutting down the economy. My expectation is that if the death rates end up being fairly comparable, most countries will adopt the Swedish approach in the future.

    IOW, the economic shutdown approach will be one and done!

    • Agree: Fran Taubman, Alfred
  162. Miro23 says:
    @Alfred

    They made a choice to keep their jobs over their integrity and self-respect.

    This works until they lose their jobs and security. When their jobs have gone and the money and social support are gone (possible), then they can radicalize.

    “What we wanted we did not know, but what we knew we did not want. To force a way through the prisoning wall of the world, to march over burning fields, to stamp over ruins and scattered ashes…”

    Ernst Von Salomon, “Die Geächteten” (“The Ostracised”) Weimar Republic 1930

    It’s not really about integrity and self-respect, there are some situations were they can’t sell their integrity and self-respect – and radicalization offers a better payoff.

  163. @geokat62

    How ironic that Frannie would condemn “The Left” when this weapon was forged by Jewish Supremacist Organizations themselves to undermine the pillars of traditional Western societies, whose peoples were deemed to be too authoritative and needed to be replaced by a new breed of people, the fabled “progressives.” But, once the dismantling was carried out, these JSOs decided to pivot away from these useful idiots because they were no longer willing to be Progressives Except for Palestine (PEPs). That’s why they destroyed lefties like Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, and anyone else who might come along and think that progressive policies should by applied uniformly to all offenders, including the Apartheid state

    Interesting to see you go in circles like when you cozy up to Islamist who would dirty your white European order to dust. What a mess you have on your hands. All your supporters are moving targets.
    Get a hold of yourself. Jeremy Corbin, Angela Merkel. The heads of the European Union. The champions of globalization and 3rd world immigration your bete nori, are not Jewish.

    What do you and KMac have to say about that?

    Tell me Geo are you defending Jeremy Corbyn ? Oh so the Jews brought him down that’s it.
    Those Jews that brought Corbyn down were not the progressive globalist you loath. They were the Tory white man’s party. You see Geo. Those lefties, those Corbynites, they were Islamist.
    What do you have to say about that? Are you a Ilan Omar and Rashida Tlaib supporter?
    How does your world order reconcile all those desperate moving targets?
    What’s a fellow white man suppose to think of you being so cozy with a Hezbollah supporter like Corbyn just cause the Jews brought him down?

    What a tangled web you have weaved.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  164. @Alfred

    I would bet on both things being true: the story and what you say happened, except the ‘contrived’ bit. They exploited rather than contrived it.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @Brás Cubas
  165. utu says:

    “The biggest explanatory variable that explains the difference in the death rate between Sweden and its neighbours is the size of their nursing homes.” – Sounds to me like the dead-ender’s last ditch argument and a lie. Did you come up with it by yourself or is it one of the talking points of Anders Tegnell’s apologists? The difference of the factor of 7 between Sweden and Finland and Norway is because of social distancing and lockdowns, nothing else.

    From 1997:
    Of the countries studied, Sweden has the highest percentage of elderly people but a relatively low ratio of nursing home beds to elderly subjects, averaging only 21 nursing home beds per 1000 older people (in absolute numbers: 31000 nursing home beds).
    ( Age and Ageing 1997; 26-S2: 3-12, Nursing homes in 10 nations: a comparison between countries and settings)

    More recent:
    Here you can find that indeed Sweden has more nursing home beds than other Scandinavian countries but only by 9% more per capita than Finland. You do not expect that 9% difference explains the factor 7 difference which is 600%.
    https://gateway.euro.who.int/en/indicators/hfa_491-5101-number-of-nursing-and-elderly-home-beds/visualizations/#id=20070

    The only reason that Sweden is not much worse that it is is that they de facto practice social distancing. Look at movie theaters (Steve Sailer plot):

    Or look at housing:

    https://gateway.euro.who.int/en/indicators/hfa_491-5101-number-of-nursing-and-elderly-home-beds/visualizations/#id=20070

    In Sweden 20%-25% of population lives in single-person households comparing to 5% in Italy and 3% in Spain. 40% of seniors live in one person senior household.
    https://www.oecd.org/els/family/HM1-4-Living-arrangements-age-groups.pdf

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @geokat62
  166. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    The difference of the factor of 7 between Sweden and Finland and Norway is because of social distancing and lockdowns, nothing else.

    Listen, utu. Trust me on this one, I’m right. Do you want to know how I know I’m right? Fran Taubman agrees with me!

    • LOL: Fran Taubman
  167. geokat62 says:
    @utu

    The difference of the factor of 7 between Sweden and Finland and Norway is because of social distancing and lockdowns, nothing else.

    Nothing else, really? Think again.

    Excerpt from, ‘Shocking’: 66% of new coronavirus patients in N.Y. stayed home: Cuomo:

    ALBANY — The majority of recently hospitalized coronavirus patients in New York are people who have followed the precaution of staying home, Gov. Cuomo said Wednesday.

    The governor said it was “shocking” that 66% of new coronavirus hospitalizations are people who are either retired or unemployed and not commuting to work on a regular basis.

    https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-cuomo-coronavirus-stats-20200506-eyqui4b5lfdn7g6cqswkf6otly-story.html

  168. @Fran Taubman

    I asked (comment 156, Question 5) “Do you condemn the sort of libel that Hall was subjected to when his Facebook wall was hacked in order to put up a viciously antisemitic message?”

    You replied

    Yes I condemn that and I mentioned that in my original post.

    Well, I saw in your comment 154 that you mentioned the posted Facebook message, but not that you condemned the use of it to defame Hall. If I missed that please direct me to the comment where you condemn that. Perhaps I did not make my meaning clear. I was not asking if you condemned the message. Of course you do, as does Hall. I was asking if you condemned the act of framing Hall by deceptively making it appear that he approved of the message.

    As for my questions 1 through 4 they don’t seem to me to be playing semantic games. But if you do not want to discuss them I will not bother you any further. To be honest, though, I wish you wouldn’t tell me to fuck off – it makes you appear belligerent, uncivil, and unable to answer such questions. I guess that if you suspect that someone might be antisemitic you think it’s okay to insult them. That’s not a helpful way to fight antisemitism. You may not think so, but I’m on your side in that fight.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  169. Alfred says:
    @Brás Cubas

    They exploited rather than contrived it

    Hello Brás Cubas,

    That is possible. They are happy to take advantage of opportunities.

    BTW, some time back you change your mind about Sweden and lockdowns. I tried to thank you but I had run out of credits. I hope you have a clearer picture now. 🙂

    • Agree: Brás Cubas
  170. @Brás Cubas

    São Paulo, the richest Brazilian State, is in a shutdown since March 24, and the reopening has just been moved forward to May 31.People are running out of patience (and money). The chief policy maker for São Paulo was a physician named David Uip. He has just stepped down from that position voluntarily, allegedly due to personal health issues. I thought it was an extraordinary coincidence that this happened at the same time that the Ferguson guy also stepped down.

    • Thanks: Alfred
  171. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Jeremy Corbin, Angela Merkel. The heads of the European Union. The champions of globalization and 3rd world immigration your bete nori, are not Jewish.

    What do you and KMac have to say about that?

    We’d say that these are all Traitorous Shabbos Goys. Some of those on the left, like Corbyn, still believe in the Big Lie, progressivist principles should be applied equally to everyone, and seek a semblance of justice for the Palestinians; while those on the right, like Salvini, Bolsonaro and others, have sold their souls to join the Zionist cause.

    Those Jews that brought Corbyn down were not the progressive globalist you loath. They were the Tory white man’s party. You see Geo. Those lefties, those Corbynites, they were Islamist.
    What do you have to say about that?

    I’d say Jewish Supremacist Organizations (JSOs) have all the bases covered:

    Left… Labour Friends of Israel
    Right… Conservative Friends of Israel
    Centre… LibDem Friends of Israel

    … and the same phenomenon is visible in most other Western countries.

    What a tangled web you have weaved.

    I’ve weaved? lol. I’m just one goy trying to disentangle the mess the JSOs have woven to confound The Dumb Goyim!

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  172. @Andrew Blair

    As for my questions 1 through 4 they don’t seem to me to be playing semantic games. But if you do not want to discuss them I will not bother you any further. To be honest, though, I wish you wouldn’t tell me to fuck off – it makes you appear belligerent, uncivil, and unable to answer such questions. I guess that if you suspect that someone might be antisemitic you think it’s okay to insult them. That’s not a helpful way to fight antisemitism. You may not think so, but I’m on your side in that fight.

    1) Too stupid to answer. Insulting for any fair minded person.

    Civility is in the eyes of the beholder one man’s ceiling is another man’s floor. I answered your questions brilliantly, ably, clear and concise. Did you read the list provided by IHRA? All your questions were covered. There is confusion over semantics by many Jew haters who take cover behind words. ” I like Jews, I just hate Zionist” The Jewish power structure as a Medieval Christian trope like Protocols, that the Jews secretly plot to run the world, to subjugate non Jews, the modern day version being the Jewish lobby (AIPAC) etc. Support for Israel in the US is not because of AIPAC and the Jewish lobby. Most Americans relate to Israel and find their cause just against the Islamist. These are classic Jew hating tropes that are gussied up by modern day academics, and the questions your posed to me about 9/11 and the war on terror etc. Thus my (uncivil) response, which I thought was quite civil to your attempt to bait me into answering those ludicrous questions that lead to Jewish conspiracies.

    • Replies: @Andrew Blair
  173. @geokat62

    while those on the right, like Salvini, Bolsonaro and others, have sold their souls to join the Zionist cause.

    This is where you tunnel vision of its all Jews all the time has kept you from seeing the forest. Those people on the extreme right should be your best buddies, your real heroes fighting against the Islamization of Europe. They represent the entirety of the white European race, and they align with Israel, over the Arabs.

    Those enlighten whites view Israel as front line warriors against the Islamic destruction of the west. It starts right there in the holy land, and with the teachings of the Islamist Said Q’tub (Under the Shade of the Koran) and other Islamic scholars. It is where Christians and Jews unite. Let me be clear it is not against the Muslims living in the ME. It is against the dictators who rule there.

    The educated who study the Israeli/Palestinian fight have come to realize that it is a sham. The cause has nothing to do with the Palestinians or land. It is a religious battle for the supremacy of Islam over the Jews. For now they are willing to unite with left leaning non muslims, but after the defeat of the Jews, the entire West is up for being conquered.

    Islam is like a 4 year old in its ability to coexist with other faiths and can only do so if they have full hegemony and rule over the non muslims as second class citizens. Islam views Jews and Christians as a corrupt version of the last and only true prophet Mohamed. The seal of the prophets.

    The Jews have every right to self determination like the 32 other Muslim only countries. Most of the Jews in Israel came from those Muslim countries (over 70%). There was a partition plan similar to India and Pakistan, but the reality is that Islam does not recognize Jews as equals. It is about the subjection of Jews and Judaism.

    To bad you are stuck in the KMac paradigm of reality where the Jews caused everything bad in the world, to miss the biggest ally you have against the destruction of the West the Jews.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  174. Crazy Horse says: • Website

    Excellent article Gilad.

    One minor objection is you called Neil Ferguson a “scientist”.

    Maybe this was just a typo.

  175. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Those people on the extreme right should be your best buddies, your real heroes fighting against the Islamization of Europe. They represent the entirety of the white European race, and they align with Israel, over the Arabs.

    The Muslim is your enemy, goy! They’re the ones that are flooding your countries. reproducing in record numbers, and bringing their intolerant sharia with them. Just ignore rabbi Touitiu’s admission, goy… “Islam is the broom of Israel.” He meant nothing by it.

    Those enlighten whites view Israel as front line warriors against the Islamic destruction of the west.

    Enlightened whites? Is that they latest euphemism for dumb goyim, Fran?
    We’re supposed to ignore the hard work of Jewish Supremacist Organizations (JSOs) like Soros’ Open Society Foundations (OSF) and the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society (HIAS) that facilitated Muslim immigration into our homelands by opening the floodgates?

    It is where Christians and Jews unite.

    When speaking to Esau, it’s let’s unite against our common enemy, Ishmael.

    When speaking to Ishmael, it’s let’s unite against our common enemy, Esau.

    But, truth be told, it’s Supremacist Jewry against all of the dumb goyim, isn’t it Fran?

    The educated who study the Israeli/Palestinian fight have come to realize that it is a sham. The cause has nothing to do with the Palestinians or land. It is a religious battle for the supremacy of Islam over the Jews. For now they are willing to unite with left leaning non muslims, but after the defeat of the Jews, the entire West is up for being conquered.

    Hasbara translation: join with us Esau or Ishmael will crush you.

    Meanwhile Judah is well on its way to crushing Esau and Ishmael!

    Islam is like a 4 year old in its ability to coexist with other faiths and can only do so if they have full hegemony and rule over the non muslims as second class citizens. Islam views Jews and Christians as a corrupt version of the last and only true prophet Mohamed.

    A more accurate rendition of what you wrote:

    Judaism is like a 4 year old in its ability to coexist with other faiths and can only do so if they have full hegemony and rule over the non Jews as second class citizens. Judaism views Muslims and Christians as a corrupt version of the first and only true prophet Moses.

    The Jews have every right to self determination like the 32 other Muslim only countries.

    What about Esau, Fran? Why don’t they have a right to self-determination? Why do JSOs falsely claim that anyone who is European who still advocates for self-determination is a White Supremacist, as if that’s something that’s inherently evil? How can being a Zionist be ok, but a Swede who wants Sweden to be for the Swedes is an evil Nazi? How did this come to he, Fran? Is it something for which our purported Muslim enemies bear responsibility?

    To bad you are stuck in the KMac paradigm of reality where the Jews caused everything bad in the world, to miss the biggest ally you have against the destruction of the West the Jews.

    As Barbara Lerner Spectre warned us, rather than helping to prevent the destruction of the West, our biggest, bestest ally is responsible for orchestrating the destruction of the West.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  176. @geokat62

    You are really over complicating the entire situation. What you wrote is more circular gibberish.
    If you ask people in Sweden, Hungry, Germany, Poland, do you want Muslims immigrating to your country, they will say no way. Not that they have a clue about Esau or Ismael. They just do not feel Arab Muslim populations mix well with Western democracy. It is as simple as that Geo.
    Stop with your BS, most Jews hate Soros. All Jews are not a like just like you Goys, we are not robots.You are just making your complete lack of clarity confusing for everyone, as to avoid admitting that it’s not the Jews fault.
    Everyone is leaving the EU not because of the Jews. They just do not want 3rd world immigration in their country. That is all there is to it. Stop over complicated.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  177. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Taubman

    You are just making your complete lack of clarity confusing for everyone, as to avoid admitting that it’s not the Jews fault… Stop over complicated.

    You’re right, Fran. I’m over complicating things. I should just keep my mouth shut and let Barbara Lerner Spectre do all the talking:

    I think there is a resurgence of anti-Semitism because at this point in time Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe is not going to be the monolithic societies they once were in the last century. Jews are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, Europe will not survive.

  178. jim jones says:

    Epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke writes in The Lancet…

    “… facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown might delay severe cases for a while, but once restrictions are eased, cases will reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.”

    • Agree: Alfred
  179. @Fran Taubman

    You tell me to fuck off in comment 163 because you say you won’t play semantic games. Out of deference to you I said in comment 171 that I’d just stop bothering you to answer my questions 1 through 4 in comment 156. But now in comment 175 you ask if I’ve read your quote of the HRA definition of antisemitism, indicating that the quote somehow answers my questions. So do you want to discuss the questions or not?

    I did read your quote, but I didn’t need to, as I’ve been following the work of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance for some time now. One thing they make clear (see https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism) is that

    Criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

    So my first question to you in comment 156 was trying to get some clarity on the difference between legitimate criticism of policies of pro-Israeli neocons and blind prejudice against Jewish people. You say in comment 175

    There is confusion over semantics by many Jew haters who take cover behind words.

    Okay, so why don’t we both try to clear up some of this confusion by not equating legitimate criticism with Cosmic Jew Hatred. That’s why I was asking for evidence for the latter, as opposed to evidence for the former.

    Tony Hall has always been careful not to blame 9/11 on some general category of people called “Jews”. It’s you who is imputing that to him, and until you begin making the distinction recommended by the HRA, your rant against him in comment 140 is only an illustration of blaming the victim. You appear to need to believe him to be “an irrational Jew hating racist,” otherwise how else can you explain to yourself your own hatred towards him.

    I’ve now answered your question about whether I read the HRA working definition of antisemitism. Will you now answer the question I posed in comment 171: Do you condemn the act of framing Hall by deceptively making it appear that he approved of the viciously antisemitic message that a hacker put up on his Facebook wall?

    Make up your mind. Do you want to discuss this further or shall I just fuck off?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  180. @Andrew Blair

    Make up your mind. Do you want to discuss this further or shall I just fuck off?

    I will discuss this further but I do not understand why you keep hounding me on condemning the act of framing Hall by deceptively making it appear that he approved the viciously antisemitic message that a hacker put up on his FB wall?
    Is this a trick question? Any fair minded person would condemn any frame of an innocent person. The internet did not turn out the way we hopped, and people say incredulous things about people that are not true, and many innocent people have been hurt.

    Tony Hall has always been careful not to blame 9/11 on some general category of people called “Jews”. It’s you who is imputing that to him, and until you begin making the distinction recommended by the HRA, your rant against him in comment 140 is only an illustration of blaming the victim. You appear to need to believe him to be “an irrational Jew hating racist,” otherwise how else can you explain to yourself your own hatred towards him.

    That is a fair question that I will answer. It is part of the semantics game I was referring to about people being careful to leave out “Jews” while referring to conspiracy theories. They refer to Neo cons, or Zionist. This particular 9/11 conspiracy is one of the most blatant examples of this.
    Let me go back to the way you framed the argument in #156

    2) Have you studied the evidence in favour of the US government narrative that 9/11 was done by al Qaeda, and been satisfied that the evidence fully supports that narrative?

    3) If the answer to 2 is “no” and, given the fact that several million in the Middle East have been killed by the “war on terror,” do you think that the state of Israel should be exempted from investigation as to who did 9/11?

    The answer is unequivocal yes they should be exempt as should any Western country. The reasons are very clear as to who perpetrated 9/11. Aside from the empirical evidence which is overwhelming, there exist written Islamic philosophy condoning and encouraging mass murder of civilians.

    The Al-Qaeda leaders: Bin-Laden and Ayman Mohammed Rabie al-Zawahiri, are followers of Sayed Q’tub the father of the Muslim Brotherhood and a prolific scholar and writer. His Magnus opus is a book called Under the Shade of the Q’uran. He is a brilliant man and studied in the US and became intimately involved in West as a student. In the book he lays out the plans for Islam to overcome it’s humiliation and reclaim its power and caliphate as a world super power. Taking on west thru Jihad and mass murder. He believes that death is just a continuation of life, and maybe the best is yet to come. He encourages death thru suicide in achieving the Islamic rehabilitation of greatness. It is not merely an idea, it is 7 volumes of ideas and philosophy, brilliantly crafted and compelling. He is the driving force behind the Islamic terrorism.

    The best article I have read on Q’tub and his life is by Paul Berman in a NY Times article called:
    The philosopher of Islamic terror See link.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/magazine/the-philosopher-of-islamic-terror.html

    By contrast every Western religion: Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc. is built around the sanctity of life. It is not possible for a religious Christian, or Jew or an moral atheist (other then a psychopathic serial killer who kills indiscriminately) to commit mass murder in the name of their religion, or in the name of self defense. It is just not possible.
    The state of Israel would never commit an act of mass murder by blowing up the world trade tower as prelude to wars in the ME. Neither would the US or any other Western country. It is a huge line in the sand. Jews do not speak in religious terms of mass murder (excluding bronze age OT text). It is an anathema. Any group of Jews planing such an event would be torn apart, by other Jews.

    Muslims committed 9/11 in the name of Islam. So yeah I find a professor searching out Zionist, Neo cons or the State of Israel as possible conspirators in 9/11 a cosmic Jew hater with a semantics problem.

    I am aware of Ron Unz Pravda piece on 9/11, which I find equally ludicrous. Ron Unz is not a professor and cannot lose tenure. If he was he would never write such horsehit. RU is inexplicably a Jew who is a cosmic Jew hater.

  181. Alfred says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Muslims committed 9/11 in the name of Islam

    That is a lie.

    “9-11/Israel did it”

    I am not going to debate this with you. There was precisely one Israeli who died in those buildings on 9/11 – in the financial heart of New York. You can repeat your dishonest assertions as often as you wish. The fact remains that it was an Israeli false flag. This coronavirus thing is quite possibly also a work of Israel. Netanyahu did not make it to jail, but he did lock up the population of Israel. 🙂

  182. Tony Hall says:
    @Fran Taubman

    Hello Fran Taubman.

    I do not hate you.

    I have no reason to believe you had anything to do with planning or perpetrating the 9/11 fiasco.

    As I see it, however, you are actively engaged in the 9/11 cover up. As is most often the case for those engaged in the cover up, you never discuss evidence. Instead you limit yourself to efforts of character assassination aimed at ruining the reputation of those that do not share your uncritical endorsement of the entire official narrative concerning the contested events of 9/11.

    Out of curiosity do you have any Muslim associates, acquaintances, friends, or colleagues? If so, how do you get along with them?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  183. @Tony Hall

    My mothers aid for 7 years before she passed away. From burkina faso. She was here under political asylum. My mother helped her thru nursing school. She is now an extended member of our family.
    My Iranian carpet merchant who I work with on many projects and his assistant.

  184. geokat62 says:

    Excerpts from, Dr. Birx Reportedly Believes Coronavirus Death Toll Inflated By Up To 25%:

    Dr. Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus task force response coordinator, believes some official COVID-19 statistics like death tolls may be inflated by up to 25%, a new report states.

    Birx criticized the method the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) was using to collect its data during a heated task force meeting, according to a report Saturday from The Washington Post.

    “There is nothing from the CDC that I can trust,” Birx reportedly told CDC Director Robert Redfield.

    https://dailycaller.com/2020/05/11/doctor-deborah-birx-coronavirus-covid-19-death-toll-inflated-numbers-cases-cdc-white-house-meeting-report/

  185. @Fran Taubman

    It is good of you to continue this discussion.

    I did not mean to be hounding you about whether you condemn the framing of Hall. It was not a trick question. It was just that I was unclear whether it was the content of the Facebook post you were condemning or the use of it to frame Hall. Anyway, you’ve made your position clear enough.

    I have interacted now with many people who regard Hall as an antisemite, and you are the first of them who has been willing to say that they disapprove of his having been framed. So even though most of what his accusers believe about him is secondhand, it’s as if they are thinking “Well we know he’s a vile antisemite even if he’s tried to hide it, so I’m not going to disapprove of somebody having put up something that depicts the way he really is so that other people will know what he’s really like.” Thus the scapegoating pattern of group behaviour kicks in, and nobody wants to question the accuracy of how the target is being depicted once the crowd starts pelting the stones of vilification.

    Well, sometimes a few people do. In Hall’s case I was one, though I’ve been rather slow at it, and there are several others. In the fall of 2016 I began posting comments on the B’nai Brith Canada website, mostly of a questioning nature, and explaining why I would not support their petition to have Tony investigated. Instead of responding to my comments they were simply removed. For example, before my comments were removed, Harry Abrams said of Hall in a reply to me

    He is a Holocaust denier, has blamed the Jews for 9 11 and more besides. The canary mission has a pretty good file on him.

    I responded,

    Thank you Harold for your comment, which I take to be a response to mine.

    I have looked at the file that Canary Mission has on Professor Hall and I find myself far more frightened by Canary Mission than I am by Tony Hall. The file is filled with assumptions that I do not know to be true, and also with descriptions that are unfair to anyone willing to wonder whether they are true. For example, the video in which Hall calls for open debate on the Holocaust is labelled “Anthony Hall Promotes Holocaust Denial,” but I see nothing in the video that promotes Holocaust denial. …

    I did not get a reply. All my comments were simply taken down.

    Something similar happened when I wrote a comment on the Alberta Views article about Hall which you say “sealed the deal” for you. I thought that the article was slanted against him, so I tried to say something to correct the unfairness of it. Alberta Views changed my wording without letting me know. This changed the meaning of what I said, and they published my reworded comment in its print edition. When I protested I got no reply.

    Until the fall of 2016, I had never met Tony Hall, and knew very little about him. He and I do live in the same city, however, and I had begun watching False Flag Weekly News in the summer of 2016 when he was co-host with Kevin Barrett. Since then I have never missed a single episode of FFWN. Hall never said anything that I would regard as racist, though I can see how some things could be twisted by his accusers into their stereotype of what an antisemite is. These episodes with Hall, however, have all been removed, so it is now impossible to go back and see what he said. (I guess youtube took them down – I know that Hall did not want them to be taken down.) In any case, in the summer of 2016, I was beginning to get some understanding of Tony Hall’s views, and since then I have read much of his work, and had many conversations with him. He has always been against racism of any kind, and a champion of those who get trampled under imperial domination. I have a website about all this, https://academicfreedomanthonyhall.ca/, and I’m currently working on a new update to it.

    [MORE]

    By the time I began watching FFWN I had already stumbled into things on the internet which caused me to doubt the official narrative about 9/11, but in the summer of 2016 I was still very far from firmly believing it to be false. The closer I got to believing it to be false the more I looked for evidence that the U.S. government line is true. This is not just because I would rather believe the official story, which I would, but because my general attitude about all such things is to look for the strongest arguments against my own developing beliefs. I try not to settle on anything until it becomes clear that I have not left out of account some important reasons for thinking that I might be heading in the wrong direction. The details of that is too long a story to be told here, and much of it is beside the point I’m trying to make anyway, but there’s a bit more on my site https://liberaleducationand911.net/.

    The point is that when you say that the empirical evidence for who perpetrated 9/11 is overwhelming – meaning that it was done by Islamic terrorists – I do not believe you. I’ve been looking for such evidence, and, the more I look, the more dismayed I become about how inadequate the evidence is. For example, one of the first books I read as I searched for reasons to believe the official story was Jonathan Kay’s Among the Truthers: A Journey Through America’s Growing Conspiracist Underground. Perhaps this was not a good start because Kay does not attempt to deal with the evidence either for or against the official story, but assumes it to be true, and goes on to give explanations for why people would believe the “conspiracy theories”. The problem with this approach is that unless an author grapples with the evidence himself he is in no position to understand the psychology of the people he is assessing. It is like assuming that a victim of sexual assault is lying and then trying to explain what is psychologically wrong with her for making false assertions.

    I could go on about this, and of course I know about the 9/11 Commission report and the NIST report, and many other things, but I am still looking for the sort of evidence you are talking about. I welcome any evidence you might provide. I have, however, pretty much given up hope of finding enough good reasons to change my melancholy conclusion that the government narrative is false. I would be delirious with joy at discovering that I’m wrong. I am, therefore, appreciative of the backdrop to 9/11 that you paint about Q’tub and the al Qaeda leaders. I am not likely ever to read the whole of In the Shade of the Q’uran, which is over 7000 pages long, but I have ordered Q’tub’s Milestones. I have just read Paul Berman’s NYT article, “The Philosopher of Islamic Terror”, which you gave a link to, and it does lend some plausibility to the idea that al Qaeda would have had motivation to do 9/11. So I’m glad to add that bit to the evidence that runs counter to my current beliefs. But whether al Qaeda had the means to rig the 3 buildings of the World Trade Center for demolition, among other problems with the official story, is a different matter – but let’s not get into all that now.

    As an aside, one of the sentences which particularly caught my eye in “The Philosopher of Islamic Terror” was this one:

    He [Q’tub] complained about America’s decision in the time of Harry Truman to support the Zionists, a strange decision that he attributed, in part, to America’s loss of moral values.

    The decision might not have seemed so strange, either to Berman or to Q’tub, had either of them known of the assassination attempt on Truman in 1947, which I as far as I know neither of them did. See Eric Pace’s article published in the NYT in 1972, “Letter-Bombs Mailed to Truman in 1947” (https://www.nytimes.com/1972/12/02/archives/letterbombs-mailed-to-truman-in-1947-truman-was-sent-bombs-book.html).

    Getting back to your claim that there is overwhelming evidence that Islamic terrorists did 9/11 I do not think that you are trying to bullshit me. I think that you sincerely believe it. It logically follows from your assumption that

    It is not possible for a religious Christian, or Jew or an moral atheist (other then a psychopathic serial killer who kills indiscriminately) to commit mass murder in the name of their religion, or in the name of self defense.

    If that assumption were true then you would be right that we can pretty much exclude Western countries from the list of suspects, which leaves countries like Saudi Arabia, or Iraq, and, of course, the organization called “al Qaeda”. So I imagine you are thinking that if the U.S. says it was al Qaeda we can be pretty sure that that’s who it was. And if al Qaeda did it then – and this is virtually incontrovertible – there is bound to be a massive trail of evidence that they did. So when I try to see it from your point of view I can see how you would have confidence that indeed the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the official story. If I have misunderstood your perspective please let me know. But, as I said, I have been looking for the evidence that you believe exists, and for the most part what I’ve found instead is evidence for a false flag and a cover up. Take the 9/11 Commission report, for example, and then read it in the light of this recent blog post by Kevin Ryan: “Ignoring the Elephant at Gitmo: Yet Another 9/11 Crime” (https://digwithin.net/2020/01/25/gitmo/).

    I do not share your assumption that the West is not capable of massacres like 9/11. There are many thousands of examples throughout history that run counter to the assumption. The 1391 massacre of Jews in Christian Spain is one. I don’t know how many were killed, but it was more than the number of humans killed on 9/11. It seems to me that no society is immune to the repeating pattern of scapegoating and dehumanizing others, which is what was done to Muslims by the atrocity of 9/11. But I don’t want to go on about this, partly because it is too large a topic, but also because I do not feel very desirous of changing your mind about the West. The red pill is extremely bitter.

    Whether you’ve got the truth about 9/11, or I do, does not seem to me to matter very much. Most of what we come to believe comes from the intellectual labours of others. What I’m most interested in is that these labours be performed in a manner most likely to yield the truth. Universities do a pretty good job of sorting truth from error if they are left in freedom to do it – though, no matter what, they will always be imperfect. In the case of 9/11, and several other subjects, they have not been doing it because of way too much interference from outside the academy. Tony Hall is only one example. You and I might want to discuss some other examples at some other time. In the meantime do you agree with me that there should not be gatekeepers outside the academic community telling everyone inside what they must believe or be fired?

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  186. @Andrew Blair

    I find your questions and writings to be sincere and intelligent free from hyperbole and sensationalism. I disagree with many points that you write, but all in all I can follow it in my mind as being rational and sane.

    This is Tony Halls response to me, which I find irrational, sensational, and not of a sound intellectual mind. Certainly not a curious mind without prejudice. What is your take?

    As I see it, however, you are actively engaged in the 9/11 cover up. As is most often the case for those engaged in the cover up, you never discuss evidence. Instead you limit yourself to efforts of character assassination aimed at ruining the reputation of those that do not share your uncritical endorsement of the entire official narrative concerning the contested events of 9/11.

    Out of curiosity do you have any Muslim associates, acquaintances, friends, or colleagues? If so, how do you get along with them?

    I listed in my previous posts the empirical evidence that Islamist were behind 9/11.

    -All of the hijackers were Saudi Nationals who were identified and were killed on that day. There exist mountains of evidence of them taking flying lessons and planning the attacks.
    -Al-Qaeda associates were found with documents revealing the planing of the attacks.

    The philosophical evidence I listed was the Jihadist foundations for committing mass murder, as supported by the Muslim Brotherhood and Q’tub in the name of Islam as practiced by the Taliban, the mass murders by blowing up mosques and weddings by Islamic Sunnis and Shia’s. Suicide bombers becoming martyrs by religious Imams and sheiks. ISIS beheadings. The Danny Pearl beheading etc.

    I see none of this type of mass murder and violence by Western people to kill citizens. Citizens have been killed in wars that should have never been fought. Wrong wars. But the West or US did not set out in any war to specifically target civilians and citizens by committing mass murder.

    What am I covering up. The evidence for Islam committing 9/11 is overwhelming.

    • Replies: @Andrew Blair
  187. geokat62 says:

    The Diversity pot is slowly starting to simmer:

    … all thanks to the Board of Deputies of British Jews!

  188. @Fran Taubman

    In your comment 189 you ask what is my take on the response you quote from Tony Hall’s comment 185 to you. It’s vintage Tony Hall. When Tony sees somebody doing what he thinks wrong he directly confronts them. In some circumstances this is effective, in some it is not. It sometimes puts people off, and makes them think he is irrational. But I do not see it as irrational.

    You should take into account the context. Your comment 140 was uncivil, not an invitation to a dialogue.

    I see some parallels between Tony and Ignaz Semmelweis. I am currently reading a book by Theodore Obenchain, titled Genius Belabored: Childbed Fever and the Tragic Life of Ignaz Semmelweis. It’s a very well-known story, and has given a name to a common reaction to someone who says things that a society does not want to hear: the “Semmelweis reflex”.

    Semmelweis was an assistant obstetrician in the Vienna General Hospital in the mid 1800s at a time before it was discovered that many diseases are caused by microorganisms too small to be seen by the naked eye. He discovered that there was a strong statistical difference between two clinics at the hospital, one for medical students, the other for the training of midwives. The medical students’ clinic had a much higher mortality rate. Semmelweis came up with the theory that the medical students, who performed autopsies, were carrying what he called “cadaverous particles” when they examined the mothers. He instituted a practice of washing with a chlorinated lime solution before examining the mothers, and the mortality rate in the medical students clinic dropped to the same as the midwives clinic.

    [MORE]

    Despite this success, Semmelweis’ views were at odds with the medical opinions of the time, and he was ignored, ridiculed, and rejected. He lost his job. The reception of his ideas made Semmelweis angry, and he was given to denouncing others in the medical profession in an undiplomatic way, calling them ignoramuses and irresponsible murderers. He became depressed and obsessive about not receiving a proper hearing. In 1865 he was committed against his will to a mental institution, which he tried to leave, was severely beaten, and died from an infection which might have been related to the beating.

    Twenty years later the work of Louis Pasteur led the medical profession to begin to accept the germ theory of disease, and to recognize that Semmelweis had been right. Many thousands of women died unnecessarily in childbirth because of the delay in recognizing this.

    Maybe there was something prickly about Semmelweis that made it difficult for the medical profession to give a fair hearing to his views, but we need to ask whether the prickliness was induced by the hostility with which his views were received. To what extent was Semmelweis a rational, morally sensitive person, thrown off balance by the response to his trying to do something good?

    Given that Tony was defamed, vilified, ostracized, ripped in mid-term from the course he was teaching, suspended without pay, and forbidden to be on campus, all because he thought he was doing what he ought, you might expect him to be a bit prickly too. You’ve been much more prickly yourself. Your attack in comment 140 was an unprovoked attack. I can see why you think it justified because you think Tony to be a racist, but Tony’s response in comment 185, in contrast, is civil. It’s not even a counter-attack, though he does tell you directly that he thinks you are actively engaged in the 9/11 cover up.

    There is something ambiguous about the way Tony asserts that. You could be knowingly engaged in a cover up, or you could be just standing up for what you believe is the truth, unaware that the way you do it has the effect of keeping the truth hidden. You’ve convinced me that you’re doing the latter. Tony might not agree with me on that, but I think that his assertion is right – you are actively engaged in a cover up. I just think you don’t see it that way.

    You say

    I listed in my previous posts the empirical evidence that Islamist were behind 9/11.
    -All of the hijackers were Saudi Nationals who were identified and were killed on that day. There exist mountains of evidence of them taking flying lessons and planning the attacks.
    -Al-Qaeda associates were found with documents revealing the planing of the attacks.

    I hope you won’t be insulted by my saying this, but I see immediately that you are not very familiar with the evidence. You are like someone who is speaking with an accent who does not know that their accent makes it instantly obvious to a native speaker that the language is not their mother tongue. Not all of the hijackers were Saudi Nationals, not even in the official story. Two of them were from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt and one from Lebanon. This is not a significant error on your part, but it’s a giveaway that you haven’t seriously studied this aspect of the story.

    I haven’t closely studied this part of the story myself, but, to the extent that I have studied it, the “mountains” of evidence to which you refer seem to me to count heavily in favour of the theory that 9/11 was a false flag psychological operation. For starters, the flying lessons that the alleged hijackers took were on light single engine Cessnas that would not even have begun to prepare them to be able to fly Boeing 757s and Boeing 767s, much less to perform the manoeuvres they would have had to perform.

    In the NYT article you linked to in comment 183 there is a passage where Berman says

    It is easy to imagine that, in expounding on these themes back in the 1950’s and 60’s, Qutb had already identified the kind of personal agony that Mohamed Atta and the suicide warriors of Sept. 11 must have experienced in our own time. It was the agony of inhabiting a modern world of liberal ideas and achievements while feeling that true life exists somewhere else. It was the agony of walking down a modern sidewalk while dreaming of a different universe altogether, located in the Koranic past — the agony of being pulled this way and that.

    That was how Berman imagined Atta in 2003. This picture of Atta is very much at odds with much information that has become available since then. You can find this information if you look for it on the internet, though you won’t find it in mainstream media. Atta spent profligately on drugs, alcohol and women, and was not at all like a pious person dreaming of a different universe.

    One of the very curious things about the claim about the 19 hijackers is how dubious is the evidence that they were even on the aircraft. The fact that clear evidence cannot be provided, when it is normally easy to determine who boarded an aircraft, makes the official story to be extremely fishy. The last I read about this was a blogpost written by Elias Davidsson in 2006: “Shattering the myth of 19 Muslim hijackers”. (https://aldeilis.net/english/no-evidence-that-muslims-hijacked-planes-on-911/). Perhaps there has been better evidence about this provided since 2006, (though why would it take so long?), and, if so, I would be pleased to know of it.

    There’s much more I could go on about at this point, but I will leave it here, at least for now. As for documents found that revealed planning for the attacks, I don’t know what you’re referring to, but maybe you know something I do not, and I welcome learning more.

    When Tony says flatly “you never discuss evidence”, it’s arguably an exaggeration, but your evidence doesn’t go beyond the very questionable stories put out in the mainstream media, and does not address at all the question of whether the media itself has succumbed to a psychological operation.

    You go on to talk of how there is much violence perpetrated in the name of Islam, and say

    I see none of this type of mass murder and violence by Western people to kill citizens.

    That seems like the assumption that anchors the rest of your thinking on this subject. While I don’t have a problem with your pointing to violence done in the name of Islam, the assumption seems like a prejudice – an ethnocentric prejudice that deflects criticism away from your/my own culture.

    The evidence against the assumption seems overwhelming to me.

    Do you remember the Patriot Act being passed soon after 9/11 and the anthrax attacks that occurred at about the same time? 5 people were murdered by anthrax. According to the mainstream media the Patriot Act was passed in order to protect Americans from things like anthrax attacks. But the act could also be used to help keep the lid on the truth surrounding 9/11. It has been shown conclusively that the anthrax came from an American biodefense lab. The person blamed was Bruce Ivins. He supposedly committed suicide, though that story reeks of a cover up. There’s a book about this by a religious studies scholar, Graeme MacQueen, titled The 2001 Anthrax Deception.

    This anthrax story, however, is a mere scratch on the surface of the mountain of evidence against your assumption. How many indigenous people were murdered when Europeans colonized the Americas? How many black Africans died in being transported as slaves to the Americas? Have you heard of Operation Ajax, Operation Condor, Operation Gladio, the overthrow of Sukarno, Arbenz, Allende, Ghaddafi, support for the Contras, support for Savimbi, for Kagame? Do you know of the Deir Yassin massacre?

    I wonder how you maintain your ethnocentric assumption. Do you not know of these things? Or do you think that they are justified by some greater good that they served? Or is it just that you haven’t given this enough consideration? These aren’t rhetorical questions. I would really like to know, if you’re willing to say.

    • Replies: @Fran Taubman
  189. @Andrew Blair

    Man oh man you sound like a bigger nut job then Tony Hall. Sorry. You wasted all that copy on the Semmelweis theory about germs and that is your comparison to 9/11? The difference is that germs are real. 9/11 is not.

    There is something ambiguous about the way Tony asserts that. You could be knowingly engaged in a cover up, or you could be just standing up for what you believe is the truth, unaware that the way you do it has the effect of keeping the truth hidden. You’ve convinced me that you’re doing the latter. Tony might not agree with me on that, but I think that his assertion is right – you are actively engaged in a cover up. I just think you don’t see it that way

    Why would I cover an idea up if I thought it was the truth. This is so ludicrous as to be dishonest. I have understood the theory of Zionist committing 9/11, have seen most of the ideas, including the internal detonations brining the towers down and not the airplanes. I have rejected it. I am entitled to my opinion based on my interpretation of the facts, as you are of yours. I do not reject ideas or theories based on my religion. For you to say that I am covering up the truth that I to face the truth because of how did you put it my ethnocentric assumption.is sinister, and implies that if I do not see it your way, I am part of the conspiracy. That very assertion disqualifies you from any honest analysis since you have a belief you want the facts to fit your belief. Anyone that doesn’t see your set of facts just does not want to believe.

    Have you forgotten that in 1993 there was an attempt to take down the towers by a Muslim Shiek who did not deny the charge. I would say that is prima facia evidence that some Muslims are interested in taking down the towers. That is just a fact. Nothing to do with ethnocentrism.

    These are my other facts:
    I was in NY that day and heard the planes, and friends saw them hit the building, so I do not think the towers were blown up by the inside with detonation.

    This from wiki very concise I will get to the point. The attackers were identified by there passports into this country and their disappearance and there affiliation with Al Qaeda. The flight 93 before it crashed the attackers were identified as Arabic by the passengers prior to their taking down the plane.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

    [MORE]

    Bin Laden orchestrated the attacks and initially denied involvement but later recanted his false statements.[2][15][16] Al Jazeera broadcast a statement by bin Laden on September 16, 2001, stating, “I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation.”[17] In November 2001, U.S. forces recovered a videotape from a destroyed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. In the video, bin Laden is seen talking to Khaled al-Harbi and admits foreknowledge of the attacks.[18] On December 27, 2001, a second bin Laden video was released. In the video, he said:
    It has become clear that the West in general and America in particular have an unspeakable hatred for Islam. … It is the hatred of crusaders. Terrorism against America deserves to be praised because it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel, which kills our people. … We say that the end of the United States is imminent, whether Bin Laden or his followers are alive or dead, for the awakening of the Muslim umma (nation) has occurred
    but he stopped short of admitting responsibility for the attacks.[19]

    Shortly before the U.S. presidential election in 2004, bin Laden used a taped statement to publicly acknowledge al-Qaeda’s involvement in the attacks on the United States. He admitted his direct link to the attacks and said they were carried out because:
    we are free … and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security, we undermine yours.[20]

    Bin Laden said he had personally directed his followers to attack the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.[21][22] Another video obtained by Al Jazeera in September 2006 shows bin Laden with Ramzi bin al-Shibh, as well as two hijackers, Hamza al-Ghamdi and Wail al-Shehri, as they make preparations for the attacks.[23] The U.S. never formally indicted bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks, but he was on the FBI’s Most Wanted List for the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya.[24][25] After a 10-year manhunt, U.S. President Barack Obama announced that bin Laden was killed by American special forces in his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, on May 1, 2011.[26]

    Osama bin Laden’s declaration of a holy war against the United States, and a 1998 fatwā signed by bin Laden and others, calling for the killing of Americans,[14] are seen by investigators as evidence of his motivation.[44] In bin Laden’s November 2002 “Letter to America”, he explicitly stated that al-Qaeda’s motives for their attacks include:
    * U.S. support of Israel[45][46]
    * support for the “attacks against Muslims” in Somalia
    * support of Philippines against Muslims in the Moro conflict
    * support for Israeli “aggression” against Muslims in Lebanon
    * support of Russian “atrocities against Muslims” in Chechnya
    * pro-American governments in the Middle East (who “act as your agents”) being against Muslim interests
    * support of Indian “oppression against Muslims” in Kashmir
    * the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia[47]
    * the sanctions against Iraq[45]
    After the attacks, bin Laden and al-Zawahiri released additional videotapes and audio recordings, some of which repeated those reasons for the attacks. Two particularly important publications were bin Laden’s 2002 “Letter to America”,[48] and a 2004 videotape by bin Laden.[49]

    This as well as the fact that the 1993 failed bombing by Islamic terrorist, leads me to the logical conclusion that Islamic terrorism successfully took down the towers in 9/11/
    So really take your accusations of my ethnocentric assumption and really get lost. You are completely disqualified for an intelligent discussion with that racist accusation. And ends our formal dialogue. I do not engage with racist.

    Dier Yassin did you say? Have you heard of the Hebron attacks of 1928. The bombing of Israeli school busses by Arab terrorist killing hundreds of school children. How about the 110o Israelis killed by suicide bombers in pizza parlors during the 2nd intifada? You got a lock on good and bad?
    What an insult.

    • Replies: @Andrew Blair
  190. @Fran Taubman

    Very well, if you want to end it here, I will say no more. Take care.

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