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As part of wokedom’s fantasy-ridden fascination with indigenes, sports teams, such as the Redskins and Braves, race to change names. (For Washington’s team, the Federal Folders has been suggested.) Outraged conservatives see the changes as nauseating prissiness by historically illiterate ninnies. It is every bit of this. Still, the teams should be renamed. What civilized nation would name teams after murderous, torturing stone-age savages? Which the Indians were.

Yes, I know. Quite. Today one shouldn’t refer to torturing stone-age savages as torturing stone-age savages. No, the Indians were contemplative, spiritual beings at one with nature, living simply and nobly, like a pudding of Buddha and Henry David Thoreau.

ORDER IT NOW

I recommend to those imbrued with this dreamy understanding of Native Americans a couple of books, Over the Earth I Come, by Duane Schultz, a history of the entirety of the Sioux uprising in Minnesota of 1862, and Dakota Dawn, by Gregory Michno, of the first week. These recount the deaths of some 800 settlers, almost entirely civilians, at the hands of the noble, contemplative Sioux. It was not a rebellion against Federal troops of men, but butchery of families, usually defenseless. War parties went from farm to farm, killing men, women, and children.

In one act of contemplation, they nailed children to a door and slowly vivisected them to death in front of their parents, who themselves were then tortured to death. Teenage girls were staked to the ground, raped by a dozen or two of braves, then hacked to death.

Tidbits: Children deliberately burned alive in flaming cabins. Children shot, quickly if they were lucky, otherwise left to die in agony. Whole families tomahawked in their cabins, girls taken prisoner for later amusement.

These things actually happened, over and over, not as isolated incidents. The descriptions are from original accounts by those who were there. If you think I am inventing, or exaggerating, read either of the books mentioned above. The links go to Amazon. Both are by historians, not by lying heartless racist conservative Trump-loving just-like-Hitler and so on. Both comport closely with many accounts I have read by men (usually) captured or even raised by Indian tribes. These spiritual beings were of the Stone Age by literal definition and were most assuredly savages by any definition.

ORDER IT NOW

If the events in these books are judged inadequate, Scalp Dance: Indian Warfare on the High Plains, by Thomas Goodrich, provides accounts of similar grotesque torture by Western Indians. For example, a cavalry unit found a man who had been staked to the ground, disemboweled, and later burned to death.

Why the grotesque torture? Because the Indians enjoyed it. They took prisoners for the specific purpose, making village celebrations of the procedure. American soldiers took seriously the admonition, “Save your last bullet for yourself.” Gunga Din all over again.

Torture as amusement was not restricted to a few tribes. The Iroquois were famous for gruesome technique, being artists of the genre. Captured by the Indians, by Herman Lehmann consisting of fifteen accounts by captives, provides many examples.

Why did the natives erupt in Minnesota and on the plains? Easy. Because the settlers followed the policy usual across the continent of lying to the Indians, breaking treaties, pushing them out of the best land, killing off the buffalo on which they depended and sometimes massacring whole villages. The whites placed avaricious and incompetent officials over them, forced them onto reservations, and allowed corrupt traders to exploit them mercilessly. Ask and ye shall receive, says an old book. Whether this justifies disemboweling a pregnant woman and nailing her almost-infant to a tree—this was done—may be argued. It happened.

Contrary to Kevin Costner’s “Dances with Wolves,” the Sioux tribe was feared by even other savage Indian tribes. Minnesota tried hanging most of them, but Abraham Lincoln would only allow Minnesota to hang 38.

Another book of contemplation and oneness with nature is the Thomas Goodrich book, including first-hand accounts of Custer’s error in judgement. The Indians acted like…Indians. I won’t multiply horrifying examples.

Nobody doubted that the plains Indians were superb warriors, the best horsemen on the continent. They were not stupid. They were loyal to their tribes and sometimes enrolled captive whites into their tribes as equals. Yet east and west they were unspeakably cruel, for example tying prisoners naked to poles and keeping them alive for hours while burning the with flaming branches.

Women’s rights? In many tribes, perhaps all, they were treated almost as slaves, doing the physical work of the villages. Captured white women were beaten and passed among the braves as sexual toys, sometimes being pregnant when released in one way or another. An Indian woman caught in adultery might have her nose cut off while the man suffered no penalty.

All of this is well, multitudinously, and voluminously documented. Again, it would be easy to sicken the reader with example after example.

All of the foregoing is written to illustrate the absurdity of painting the Indians as woodland philosophers and oppressed innocents. Oppressed, yes, innocents, no. The whites often behaved as savagely as the Indians, suggesting we should rename the Cowboys and Forty-Niners. Anyone doubting this might read of the Sand Creek Massacre in which American soldiers attacked a village that had been promised peace, killing men, women, and children. For example, using a toddler for target practice. The link is to a Wikipedia entry and, while long is worth reading if you believe the Disney fantasy of brave, honest settlers bringing principle and Christian morality to an exceptional new nation. There were plenty of massacres by whites, including by later-President Jackson.

Sand Creek bits and pieces:

“I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces … With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors … By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ..”

— John S. Smith, Congressional Testimony of Mr. John S. Smith, 1865

“Fingers and ears were cut off the bodies for the jewelry they carried. The body of White Antelope, lying solitarily in the creek bed, was a prime target. Besides scalping him the soldiers cut off his nose, ears, and testicles-the last for a tobacco pouch ….”

“Before Chivington and his men left the area, they plundered the teepees and took the horses. After the smoke cleared, Chivington’s men came back and killed many of the wounded. They also scalped many of the dead, regardless of whether they were women, children or infants. Chivington and his men dressed their weapons, hats and gear with scalps and other body parts, including human fetuses and male and female genitalia.”

The impenetrably woke and the hyperpatriotic will insist respectively that these things didn’t happen, and that anyway they were isolated incidents. But they did, and weren’t. Few things die harder than illusion.

Or something bad may happen to you. I have friends in the garment district.

Write Fred at [email protected] Put the letters pdq anywhere in the subject line to avoid heartless autodeletion. All read, reply not guaranteed due to volume.

 
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  1. MacKinlay Cantor wrote a novel, “Spirit Lake” ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Lake_(book) ), based on an 1857 series of Sioux massacres in Iowa, which foreshadowed the 1862 rampage in Minnesota. As I recall it was overlong and depressing but otherwise a good read and provided some unbiased insight into the issues involved.

    • Replies: @The Soft Parade
    , @anon
  2. Anonymous[289] • Disclaimer says:

    Not defending the actions of the Indians in any way, shape or form, but they fought – following the call of their genes – the invaders of their ancestral lands in time honored fashion.

    The same cannot be said of contemporary white Europeans.

  3. Wyatt says:

    “The Lakota Sioux were one of three groups of people who spoke a related language. They were called “Sioux” by the French in an adaptation of the Chippewa word Nadouessioux, a word which means “adder” or “snake.””

    Not all injuns were created equal.

    • Agree: jsigur
  4. “… By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ..”
    “Congressional Testimony of Mr. John S. Smith”
    – Now why did I suddenly see an image of a young John Kerry testifying (lying) about American “so called” atrocities in Vietnam?

  5. Human history is a history of much cruelty.

  6. I had to stop reading when it got wholly into wanton murder.
    Not interested in what follows.
    I sure do hope Mr Reed is living the dream.
    I hope their are plenty of children in his life.
    That’s real success.
    I’m really proud to come from a country that produces a Mr Fred Reed.
    I bet the weather was better today where he’s at than where i am at.
    Enjoy your Time Fred. You actually earned it.
    Hope the kids are just fine. I hope they are a little rebellious.
    Happy New Year, Fred
    Hope you see many more

    • Agree: TJH14
  7. lloyd says: • Website

    When I read about the British army campaigns in Waikato region of North Island New Zealand, I was shocked. Not at their massacres. There weren’t any gratuitous ones but at their deliberate destruction of the Maori food supplies. Arguably, it would have been more humane to have simply massacred rather than starved out. The concentration camps so infamous in the twentieth century was at least an attempt to feed and shelter the enemy victims of wars. The Maoris themselves in same era fought like the Sioux uprising. A nativist uprising and return to pre modern cultural practices in the Middle East in recent years gets no more sympathy from Western society than the Sioux and Maori rebels did. That is nothing. at all. So nothing has changed.

    • Agree: meamjojo
  8. @Gordon K. Shumway

    “history of much cruelty” doesn’t come close

    to the saved and chosen, enlightened types who pervade

    our reality until at least tomorrow. Why are the religions
    and their belief systems always given a “free” pass? No tax?

    The weapons today will usher in a “glorious reign” of lasting peace,
    peak prosperity,intellectual freedom,individual liberty,justice
    for all and equality under the law.

    Human history with, TRILLION$ in “DEFENSE” spending?

    How do you say,”divine intervention” in your tongue ? Charitable contribution?

    • Replies: @animalogic
  9. Your thesis here, Mr. Reed, is as politically incorrect as all get out, and it’s a good one that should be made more often. Too add to your book recommendations, and as a great illustration of your take on the Plains Indians, I highly recommend Sam Gwynne’s great book Empire of the Summer Moon. This one took a 3-part Peak Stupidity series to properly review it:

    ***************
    Part 1
    Part 2
    Part 3
    ***************

    The whole point of the life of a Comanche man* was to make war, steal horses while making war or not, and accumulate more horses. That was it. Things weren’t gonna be settled with the white Texans via agreements about property rights and calls for logic and common sense. As the review concludes, savagery and civilization each have points in their favor. We chose the latter.

    As for the team names, well, how is naming teams after murderous torturing savages much different from naming them after fierce animals, such as the Lions, the Timberwolves, etc? I appreciate your understanding of the conservative viewpoint on this “prissiness”, anyway.

    Thank you. That was a great column, Fred! I wish I could write that more often, but I run an honest blog …

    .

    * As you wrote here, Indian women were not much more than beasts of burden – buffalo skinners, cooks, and a low-tech version of Starving Students Movers.

  10. Uncle Al says: • Website

    This terrible terrible unWoke recounting of peaceful protesters on both sides is all the more heinous for not crediting the French their “franks,” which is to say “tomahawks,” The French, being marginally better equipped than Neolithic locals, shared the knowledge.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisca

    “each man carried a sword and shield and an axe. Now the iron head of this weapon was thick and exceedingly sharp on both sides while the wooden handle was very short. And they are accustomed always to throw these axes at one signal in the first charge and thus shatter the shields of the enemy and kill the men”

    • Replies: @RodW
  11. Biff says:
    @lloyd

    So nothing has changed.

    Somebody gets it.

    • Replies: @Bookish1
  12. IvyMike says:

    Of course our choice of civilization still allows us such pranks as the flying ginsu warhead and incinerating stubborn enemies with white phosphorus.
    Obviously, w/o their adoption of European technology, the Plains Indians would be as lost to history as the Pacific Coast tribes. By 1840 they were approaching the environmental limits of the horse culture, overly large herds putting severe stress on the grass and cottonwood trees that sustained them in their winter campgrounds. This interesting development was made moot by the discovery of gold in Colorado and California, Ranchers fenced them off from the streams they depended on, immigrant trains destroyed much of what remained.
    Redskins refers to an ethnicity by skin color, that’s A no go these days. Rangers were bad but mostly employed against Mexicans, you can’t pick on Cowboys unless you’re PETA.
    The Sioux were Iowa farmers until we chased them out to the Black Hills. Woulda saved a lot of lives if we just let them stay and live off government subsidies like Archer Daniels Midland.

    • Replies: @animalogic
  13. Uncle Al says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Their “genes” included ritual cannibalism and the joy of cooking overall.

    https://www.scribd.com/read/271661060/Captured-by-the-Indians-15-Firsthand-Accounts-1750-1870
    …Third full page before the last, re Caribs and assassinated President Kamala Harris (wh0se near ancestors were major Jamaican slaveholders. That, and Harris filling SF jails and Soviet of California brutal prisons with her “own” people must be considered “in context,” as it no doubt will be).

    Consider the Soviet of California under Los Angeles’ ordered absolute isolation, and the Gulag of New York – both dying as their mayors publicly sup, drink, and dance with abandon. One can easily anticipate Inner Cites, less public utilities, metamorphosing into tribal game reserves. NY’s no Ballsio should be decreeing bag limits and demanding purchased licenses right now.

    Support evolution – shoot back. (Knives do not require reloading.)

  14. Avianthro says:

    Highly recommended reading:

    http://jareddiamond.org/Jared_Diamond/Rousseau_Revisited.html
    and Diamond’s book: The World Until Yesterday

    No the “Indians” were not all a bunch of Buddhists and Thoreaus. They were also not all as vicious toward their enemies, invaders of their lands, as were many of the plains tribes like the Sioux, and some of them were in fact a lot closer to being Buddhist Thoreaus than any of us modern “civilized” Americans are.

    Truly though, they were just very vigorously defending their very lives…their lands were their livelihood and the settlers were stealing their livelihoods and their way of life, effectively genociding them and their cultures. The settlers were the aggressors armed with modern weapons. How would we have behaved if we were in the Indians’ position? Gotta send as strong a message as possible, right?

    Now, consider the behavior of the US in its warfare, just a few examples: Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the totally unnecessary (See Gar Alperovitz) vaporization of 100’s of thousands. The firebomb raid on Dresden. Drone killings of wedding parties. That of course is only the beginning of literally millions of civilians killed every bit as viciously as any Indian tribe ever did.

    Still today, we have enough nuclear firepower ready to “defend our way of life” and probably to even wipe out all life on earth by nuclear fallout and nuclear winter.

    We’ve come no further than our nearest evolutionary relatives, the chimpanzees, except in terms of warfare technology. Chimps with drones and nukes, that’s the USA.

  15. Most of the “noble savage” claptrap comes from Europe, specifically, the UK, Ireland, Scandinavia, Germany. They weaponize this and (try to) use it against America. The British press has been hammering away at the Washington Redskins now for decades. Of course the Brits killed millions in India, not by bullet but by starvation. Watching people starve makes for a less compelling movie.

    • Replies: @martin_2
    , @Mark.
  16. Indigenous hunter gatherers were doomed the moment humans started farming the Fertile Crescent. They were never going to maintain themselves in any appreciable number except perhaps in the remotest parts of the world, much the same as the white European man who will not remain in any appreciable number a century from now. You either adapt to changing evolutionary challenges and thrive under new circumstances, or you overcome them via force. Fail in both regards and you’re toast.

    That’s why the future of humanity is going to be billions of clever Asians VS a small number of evil Jews wielding a hybridized nigger slave caste of their own creation.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    , @Anonymous
  17. A clip from the great “Ballad of Buster Scruggs”. Check Netflix to watch the full scene.

    • Thanks: RedpilledAF
  18. Biff says:

    These things actually happened

    I find stories on the internet to be highly suspect; at the same time I find humans are capable of some of the most horrific atrocities.

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
  19. RodW says:
    @Uncle Al

    Thanks for that.

    I recently treated myself to a Cold Steel tomahawk for garden management and idle chucking at things. I took the opportunity to look up ‘tomahawk’ on Wikipedia. I think the explanation of how the Europeans provided the Indians with the Indian invention which the Indians didn’t have the technology to invent might entertain you. I may even take to calling my Indian tool a francisca from now on.

  20. This website is so transparent. No context, as usual.

    Compare the Indian’s enormities with those of the Americans. They pale in comparison. Every single thing the Indians did, the Americans did more often. The Indians learned scalping from white men.

    You’re a fucking savage.

    • Agree: Davidoff, JohnPlywood
  21. @KlossTummybag

    The majority of pre-1492 Indians were not hunter-gatherers, but settled, accomplished farmers. As farmers, they could do things that clumsy, ignorant, land-leeching European farmers would have no clue about. Like forest agriculture. Or breeding corn.

    You watched too many cowboy movies. You know nothing about Indians.

  22. I recommend the film Black Robe, produced in 1991. It follows a young Jesuit seeking to introduce the Christian faith to the Algonquin, Huron and Iroquois of 17th century Quebec. The film is unsparing in its portrayal of both Indian violence and European ignorance. One point the film made: the Indians, especially the Iroquois, did not see the Europeans as a threat, but as a source of guns they could use to attack and enslave their historical enemies.

    The film was produced around the same time as Dances With Wolves, and provides an interesting counterpoint to the themes of the latter.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101465/

  23. @Achmed E. Newman

    As for the team names, well, how is naming teams after murderous torturing savages much different from naming them after fierce animals, such as the Lions, the Timberwolves, etc?”

    Fair enough. Plenty of people have been savagely killed by Lions, Wolves, Tigers, Bears, etc…

    • Replies: @dvorak
  24. @Anonymous

    Glad we nearly killed them ALL.

    Too bad we didn’t wipe them all out.

    That way, they wouldn’t be able to bitch all fuckin’ day, like the niggers and Jews…lol

    • Agree: Chris Mallory, Thim
    • Troll: showmethereal
    • Replies: @Trickster
    , @Alden
  25. Recently watched Apocalypta(?) on Mexican TV. Cruel and barbarous were the “natives” of the New World.

    Not saying TV movies are historically accurate, but nice to see an alternative view. They didn’t need Europeans to show them how to do it.

    Thanks for another great article!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  26. @lloyd

    The Maoris themselves in same era fought like the Sioux uprising.

    Arguably, they fought better. They certainly fought smarter – and they kept fighting, and got recognition in 1996 that lands confiscated by the pakeha government after the uprising, were seized illegitimately. (And as a result of their ‘smart fighting’, Maori are the outright legal owners of the national taonga – fisheries, wildlife, forests, minerals and radio spectrum – something that the Sioux would enjoy if they had fought smarter).

    It has to be borne in mind that at the Treaty of Waitangi was a treaty of equals – it has recently been acknowledged that there was no intention of ceding sovereignty on the part of Maori, and that they were hoodwinked by the English, by a deliberate misrepresentation of the treaty’s intent in the Maori version.

    The English used ‘kawanatanga‘ in the Maori text, as the thing that the United Chiefs were ceding. kawanatanga was a neologism meaning ‘governorship’ (‘kawana’ = transliteration of ‘governor’; ‘-tanga’ = power). The English text claimed they were ceding sovereignty.

    Sovereignty is more closely translated as rangatiratanga (‘chief-power’) or Kīngitanga (‘King-power’), and the United Chiefs had no power to cede either, and wouldn’t have done so if they had the power to. It’s worth noting that Kīngitanga is the word used for ‘sovereignty’ in the 1835 Declaration of Independence.

    And it can’t be pretended that the English translational legerdemain was unintentional , because exactly the same shit happened to the Arabs with the English promise to support their independence if they helped defeat the Ottomans in WWI.

    In the Arab case, the Poms later relied on a single comma that appeared in the English version, to create an interpretational ‘wedge’ between it and the Arabic version – and only the English version mattered in English jurisdictions.

    All the while, Sykes and Georges-Picot were negotiating how France and England would divvy up the spoils – and then Balfour gave a chunk of it to some hovel-dwellers.

    File that under ‘Why they (Arabs) hate us‘. There’s a separate folder for the Chinks, the Maori, the Indians (dot and feather), the Hawai’ians, the people of the Marshall Islands, and the people of Okinawa… and pretty much any other ‘primitive’ civilisation who took white-eyes at their word.

    With all that said: they might have swindled a cession of sovereignty (until it was acknowledged that no such cession happened) but they fucked up in one detail. One clause says that Maori will have

    [MORE]

    “Her Majesty the Queen of England [sic] confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and to the respective families and individuals thereof the full exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession; but the Chiefs of the United Tribes and the individual Chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of Preemption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective Proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf. “

    .

    In the Maori version they translated ‘other properties’ as ‘taonga‘.

    Ko te Kuini o Ingarani ka wakarite ka wakaae ki nga Rangitira ki nga hapu – ki nga tangata katoa o Nu Tirani te tino rangatiratanga o o ratou wenua o ratou kainga me o ratou taonga katoa. Otiia ko nga Rangatira o te wakaminenga me nga Rangatira katoa atu ka tuku ki te Kuini te hokonga o era wahi wenua e pai ai te tangata nona te Wenua – ki te ritenga o te utu e wakaritea ai e ratou ko te kai hoko e meatia nei e te Kuini hei kai hoko mona.

    That clause requires agreement between parties before anything can be rightfully alienated… but the English version contains the notion of royal pre-emption, and the Maori version does not – there was no such concept in Maori culture or language at the time. This and the use of kawanatanga in clause 1, are the clearest evidence that the deception was deliberate.

    *

    Disclosure: I have a strong bias on this. My maternal forebears were semi-nekkid slave-owning cannibal savages from Taranaki – the Te Āti Awa – who were the ‘OG’ perpetrators of massacres of invading pakeha who had no right to be there.

    The first outbreak of violence was at Waitara, and happened when Te Teira Manuka (not a relative) sold some Te Āti Awa land that he had no right to sell, to pakeha.

    Te Teira was not rangatira (chief – that was Wiremu Kingi te Rangitake… again, not a relative). In any case tribal land was not alienable, even by rangatira: it could change hands by conquest, but that was not what was being claimed.

    The pakeha Governor (Browne) knew that, but Waitara was some of the most fertile land in Taranaki, and Browne wanted it for settlers.

    In his defence, Te Teira thought he was selling his own interest – “enough for three or four tents to stand upon”, but the pakeha governor (Browne) did the typical English “Oh, here’s the sale deed with the mark by one of the savages… it says he’s selling the lot. This is our land now. Off you trot, Sambo – there’s a good chap.“.

    Continued Te Āti Awa agitation is the reason that Mount Egmont is now called Mount Taranaki, and will be called Taranaki Maunga relatively shortly. It’s largely symbolic, but it’s symbolic that some white prick can’t just sail past and name a mountain.

    Te Āti Awa will get back all 1.2m acres of land expropriated – eventually – or be compensated for its full value. The fact that there is a city on a big chunk of it, and houses that other people think they own in fee simple… that is someone else’s problem.

    Ka whawhai tonu mātou mō te āke, āke, āke. We will continue the fight for ever and ever and ever.

    That korero was said by Rewi Maniapoto of Waikato – formerly an enemy of Te Āti Awa, later an ally – during a key ‘defeat’ during the Maori Wars. It took him until the 1860s to work out what Wiremu Kingi te Rangitake worked out by 1850: you can’t trust pakeha.

  27. @goldgettin

    We are a…. questionable species. One might hope that Nietzsche was on to something when he said that humans are a bridge to a greater, more noble species.

    • Replies: @Ace
    , @the grand wazoo
  28. @IvyMike

    ” Woulda saved a lot of lives if we just let them stay and live off government subsidies like Archer Daniels Midland.”
    LOL.
    People said something similar about Vietnam…. But, hey, the shortest distance from A to C is usually via Z or Y…..

  29. glib says:

    Fred discovers wars the way they are seen by pretty much everyone in the world, except a strong majority in the US. Perhaps he thinks that US GI at Abu Ghraib, or Korea, or Vietnam, behaved much differently. He also fails to understand that when someone invades your land, killing their children makes sense.

    Anyhow, the nobility of the Indians, at least those of the Plains, came from a single thing: they ate only meat, and had none of the psychological problems and perversions that Westerners, with their grain ravaged guts, had and have.

    • Agree: Ed Case
    • Replies: @Sparkon
    , @Sin City Milla
  30. @Gordon K. Shumway

    It is the natural law of nature.
    From bacteria to the blue whale life is a struggle. This is what no religion and especially Christianity doesn’t understand. Morality is a man-made concept. There is no goodwill. Having said that I think these natives are far better than the new imports from Africa and Middle East. They should be respected and given their space.

    • Agree: Tony Massey
  31. Anonymous[200] • Disclaimer says:
    @KlossTummybag

    That late, great British statesman and parliamentarian, Enoch Powell, enunciated *exactly* how a society of high civilization and morals should respond to the dire reality of ethnic genetic replacement in its ancient ancestral home.

    To stretch the hunter/gatherer analogy further, Powell was brought down by intellectual and moral pigmies.

    • Agree: Irish Savant
    • Replies: @Bookish1
  32. Me thinks the real reason why Jews want to erase Indian names from sports teams and the like is not really sensitivity about Indians. It’s because Indians are the reminder of IMMIGRATION = GENOCIDE, which can also be said for Palestine.

    So, maybe the proposal will be Cleveland Indians will be Cleveland Ellis Islanders.

    • Agree: RedpilledAF
  33. clyde says:

    Ironic that Fred lives in Mexico, home of the most savage of all Amerindians. The Aztecs with their execution machinery on top of the Sun Temple in today’s Mexico City. This demonic bloodletting by Azteca priests runs through their blood. Even Mexicans who are pure European get affected by this gravitational pull.

    The Aztecs reached highs of 20,000 human sacrifices per year of their fellow Indians.

  34. meamjojo says:

    “These recount the deaths of some 800 settlers, almost entirely civilians, at the hands of the noble, contemplative Sioux. It was not a rebellion against Federal troops of men, but butchery of families, usually defenseless. War parties went from farm to farm, killing men, women, and children.”

    ———
    But what came before? Weren’t the Indians reacting to previous attacks from soldiers?

    “In one act of contemplation, they nailed children to a door and slowly vivisected them to death in front of their parents, who themselves were then tortured to death. Teenage girls were staked to the ground, raped by a dozen or two of braves, then hacked to death.”

    ———
    Did you miss how the historical 15th & 16th century Catholics tortured people who refused to convert to their true religion, sat them on pikes, drew and quartered them, burned so-called witches at the stake while they were alive, etc. etc.?

    Humans can be very cruel, capable of genocide, torture and so much more when given the right circumstances. See:
    http://www.torturamuseum.com/instruments.html

    The Indians were probably mostly friendly people, just like the Vietnamese and so many others until we decided to take their land.

    • Agree: Tom Welsh
    • Disagree: Chris Mallory
    • LOL: 3g4me, 3g4me
  35. xc says:

    Yep. If there is a galactic federation out there, they must be keeping a close eye on us. If we start looking like soon running around their neighborhoods, they will get mighty concerned and tell us to stay put. Noble savages or noble civilized folk we are not.

  36. TKK says:

    Watch “Bone Tomahawk” with Kurt Russell for a non PC, raw story depicting Native Americans and a clash with a small posse of white men.

    It has one the most violent and brutal scenes in cinema.

    Not much shocks anymore- but this film does. It is sold as “horror” genre to escape howls of woke outrage.

    • Agree: Ray Caruso
    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
  37. GMC says:

    Since when was there any rules in War ? Fred could be talking about the Civil War, WW I & II , Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf Wars, various Revolutions etc. Today, yesterday etc., the Americans drop bombs – of many various types and uses Proxy armies, that are just as blood thirsty as the Injuns were. The USA hasn’t even slightly, advanced to the next level of Humanity . Sooo = Don’t forget to saddle up and take extra ammo , when you head thru ” Indian Country” – the South side of Chicago and other various strongholds.

    • Replies: @Sin City Milla
  38. @Achmed E. Newman

    “The whole point of the life of a Comanche man* was to make war, steal horses while making war or not, and accumulate more horses. That was it…@

    Interestingly, T.R. Fehrenbach adds in his tome “The History of a People- Comanche,”-that horse wealth introduced a type of currency and begat problems of inheritance and property, certain class distinctions ( prestige) and loveless marriages between young girls and relatively old men. As time passed Comanche males could not easily purchase a wife until they were 25 or 30 and possessed many horses, since families turned into greedy, hard bargainers.
    Thus, warriors chose much invariably younger women in Amerindian terms- girls of 16 or younger.
    The warrior -now more than ever- saw his woman as his property and the generation gap and wife buying put romantic, sexual love outside of marriage, creating new problems and maladjustments that Comanche society were not prepared to cope.

    • Thanks: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @liamjq
    , @showmethereal
  39. Truiop says:

    All humans being are equally savage and cruel, and Europeans take the trophy though.

    • Disagree: Chris Mallory
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  40. cranc says:

    I recommend to those imbrued with this dreamy understanding of Native Americans a couple of books, Over the Earth I Come, by Duane Schultz, a history of the entirety of the Sioux uprising in Minnesota of 1862

    I think by that point (mid 19th century) any semblence of nobility within Native American cultures had been hollowed out by events over the previous 200 or so years.
    They were at the Khmer Rouge stage by then, driven to a kind of insanity – the roots of which lay in eveyone regardless of their cultural origin.
    Fair enough to dispel the libtard characatures, but this article smacks of a kind of mirror image to that – revelling in the dispelling, the gore and horror of what, overall was an act of genocide like none other that history knows of.
    I am no less interested in the American Indians approach to living with the natural world, or their developments in social organisation. Many pioneers of democracy drew their ideas from the examples they saw in action in the New World.

    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
    , @Georgia
  41. Tom Welsh says:
    @Gordon K. Shumway

    It would be hard to find any group of human beings without a history of this kind. Fred’s article is valid, but the Native Americans had the excuse – if you can call it that – of being “Stone Age savages”.

    What excuse did the superior, enlightened, highly religious and moral white people have?

    • Agree: Polemos
    • Replies: @Ace
  42. What you are describing here rather at length (and very eloquently and vividly!) is a persistent myth in the “West” since the days of Columbus. Las Casas’ account of how the natives in the Caribbean were treated by the Spanish colonizers caused a shock in Europe and gave rise to the concept of the “Noble Savage.” This theme was further elaborated by Montaigne and from then on became a standard fixture of intellectual debate. On the one hand the evil, morally corrupted European, on the other the pure, innocent, child-like native. Of course this notion in itself is so patently absurd and racist that no thinking person should take it seriously.

    Therefore, the Roman myth of Romulus and Remus, and the biblical stories of Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau are much more valuable: these demonstrate that all men are capable of both extreme good and extreme evil, which is also what Fred argues.

  43. I recommend the 1972 movie ‘Ulzana’s Raid’ starring Burt Lancaster as an ageing US Army scout sent to track down a band of Apache who have escaped the reservation to attack white settlers.

  44. Dumbo says:

    Awful, but it’s not as if white people didn’t do awful things to the indians too (or to other white people). The human race is cursed.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  45. Captured by the Indians is one of my favorite Indian books. Up there with Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. Somewhere in there it discusses the vexing matter (for the early American colonists) how the rescued captives (those not overly tortured or murdered) often did NOT want to return to western “civilization”. Was that not the case with Quanah’s mom? And Quanah too for that matter. There were others.

    Does that come as some surprise? Imagine the days when riding full bore balls out on your God Dog you took down a thousand pound bull American bison with your hand made bow and arrows. Fellow braves gather around as you cut out the steaming raw liver. Squeezing on bile from the beast’s gall bladder, you plunge your strong teeth into the tender flesh before happily sharing this Great Prize. Ah! That is vitality. and well earned!!

    p.s. Why it is Indians are pressuring professional sports teams to lose names like Redskins. and Braves, escapes me. You get your wish and you will be one more step to normalized, i.e. forgotten. On the other hand, these goddamn sports corporations, their toxic cake and phony circus… should all be boycotted until some major overhaul anyway.

  46. Fred, the title of your essay should be: Homo homini lupus.
    Most human suffering, Arthur Schopenhauer says, is inflicted by men themselves: Man is a wolf for man. …

    “There is no folly of the beasts of the earth,” he sums up, “which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men.”

    • Agree: Tom Welsh
  47. @Anonymous

    Nor of contemporary Americans, Canadians, or Australians.

    Liberals are the most contemptible band of human beings the world has ever seen, bar none.

    • Agree: Ace
  48. @cranc

    B.S. The injuns were bloodthirsty savages long before Columbus set foot in the New World. The Aztecs were practicing human sacrifice and cannibalism on a massive scale. The Iroquois were torturing other injuns, as they would later torture Whites. The Caribs were barbecuing caponed boys. Before the Sioux massacred hapless Swedish settlers, they massacred their Otoe cousins—who had taught them how to survive on the Great Plains when the Sioux migrated there from the east. Injuns were indeed savages and no savage is ever noble. Primitives don’t rise far above the animals.

    • Thanks: ivan
  49. @TKK

    The particular tribe depicted and its particularities are fictional, but their behavior hardly is. Injuns considered cruelty toward enemies and strangers to be a virtue.

    • Agree: TKK
    • Replies: @Trickster
  50. Mikael_ says:

    Nice revisionist history.

    Note I’m not saying anything in those books is false, just that the complete black-or-white categorization and lack of any ambiguity (at least according to Fred’s description)
    makes it just another “history is a series of lies agreed upon” variant.

  51. Tom Welsh says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If you study European history, you will find much of the same. For a more vivid, gripping account, try Bernard Cornwell’s “Uhtred” series set about the time of King Alfred. He portrays the Northmen – Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, etc. – as being just about as cruel as the Native Americans, and having almost exactly the same values. Not that long before, the Anglo-Saxons themselves practiced similar cruelties. The Japanese, Romans, Greeks, Persians, Aztecs, etc. behaved comparably.

    The key seems to be a morality that, for men at least, values honour and bravery very highly, and is completely lacking in the Christian virtues. If a man could be burned to death, for instance, and refrain from screaming (much) or begging for mercy, his killers would give him their grudging admiration. This view of life should be familiar from as recently as WW2, when the Japanese believed that an honourable soldier would die rather than surrender, and that a coward who surrendered had forfeited all right to be treated decently.

    My inner cynic reminds me that all of those peoples lacked the amenities of our advanced civilisation, such as TV, movies, and even books. Thus if they wanted to enjoy the spectacle of blood and pain, they had to do the dirty work themselves instead of lounging on sofas eating popcorn and swilling beer or soft drinks.

  52. Tom Welsh says:
    @Ray Caruso

    “Primitives don’t rise far above the animals”.

    But it takes civilised people to invent napalm and nuclear weapons.

  53. cranc says:
    @Ray Caruso

    …whereas the ‘civilised’ Europeans of the 17th century were doing what Ray ?
    Yes, burning people alive in public, warring between their own nations, plundering for trinkets.
    The ‘primitive’ is no different to the ‘civilised’ : capable of great nobility and demonic savagery alike, everyone and every group has their breaking point.

    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
  54. Dumbo says:

    There is a weird and possibly innate tendency for Whites to elevate other races over their own. Especially in regards to religion or tradition.

    Talking about Native-American “spirituality” or “ancestral practices” is common, or if not mimicking Asian or Indian religions, but I know also a white woman who is fascinated by African traditional animist religion. As if it was deeper or more profound than those created or followed by White people.

    This is might be correlated with a return to paganism and magic beliefs associated to nature. Even among whites, it is more politically correct now to talk about “gods” instead of “God”, or talk about “Mother Nature”, Gaia, and even Zeus, Odin, etc, than anything related to Christianity.

    However, even White paganism might be “problematic”, as it is associated with some right-wing people too. Non-whites are allowed to be as traditional as they want; but Whites cannot.

    • Replies: @anon
  55. martin_2 says:
    @Bragadocious

    British press hammering away at the Washington Redskins? Funnily enough, I do know who they are, they’re an American American Football team, but I think I am the exception. American Football is very much a minority interest over here. If the Daily Mail online has mentioned them it must have only been with their USA readers in mind.

    As for the British killing millions of Indians. When the British liberated India in around 1780 there were 180 million Indians. When the British left in about 1950 there were 450 million. Some genocide.

    Anyway wasn’t it someone called Rousseau, a French man, who came up with the idea of the noble savage? Thomas Hobbes famously said that in a state of nature Man’s life is “nasty, brutish and short”.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
  56. Dumbo says:

    As for the Iroquois, there are interesting narratives coming from Canada.

    Torture of prisoners was common and enjoyed by the natives; even women and children took part. Great fun was had by all.

    “The prisoners were tortured, with the bellies of pregnant women cut open and tiny children skewered, roasted, and eaten.”

    Well, it’s kind of like abortion, only except to use the fetus to create a vaccine, they just ate it.

    https://everything2.com/title/Iroquois+torture

    https://greenerpasture.com/Places/ShowNews/32377

  57. @thotmonger

    It isn’t the Indians who object to the sport team names; it’s the white liberals who presume to speak for the Indians. Like when the Cartoon Network banned Speedy Gonzales because they assumed he offended Mexicans. They never bothered to ask any actual Mexicans. When actual Mexicans complained about Speedy’s absence, he came back.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  58. @Avianthro

    Truly though, they were just very vigorously defending their very lives…their lands were their livelihood and the settlers were stealing their livelihoods and their way of life, effectively genociding them and their cultures. The settlers were the aggressors armed with modern weapons. How would we have behaved if we were in the Indians’ position? Gotta send as strong a message as possible, right?

    The first problem with this rationalization is that this was standard policy – against both whites and Indian tribes they were trying to conquer. The second is that wars over land and resources have been part and parcel of history since the beginning of time. And the only rule that has stood the test of time is devil take the hindmost. A weaker power that strips off the most basic of rules in fighting off its enemy should expect no quarter when the inevitable occurs and it loses. What’s exceptional about the American treatment of defeated indigenes is the fairly lenient treatment meted out. Other defeated warrior clans weren’t as fortunate:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_(Caucasus)

  59. Anonymous[661] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jimmy le Blanc

    I second Black Robe, an excellent film and much more balanced in its portrayal of both Indians and Europeans.

    For some insights into the American military vs native Americans I don’t think any book I’ve read on the subject rises to the level of Evan Connell’s masterpiece Son of the Morning Star: Custer and Little Big Horn.

    • Agree: fnn, 36 ulster
    • Replies: @Ganderson
  60. @meamjojo

    Weren’t the Indians reacting to previous attacks from soldiers?

    It’s not like savagery was imported to North America. Long before Europeans arrived on the scene, some groups of Indians were savagely killing and torturing other groups of Indians. Being welcomed as possible allies in this long-running, continent-wide series of local struggles is how Europeans and their advanced firepower got a foothold in the New World.

    • Replies: @meamjojo
  61. Moi says:
    @Anonymous

    Compared to whitey’s worldwide violence over the past several decades, the Native peoples were peaceniks.

    Whitey is just mad (and impotent) because it’s getting screwed by the yids, nigs and spics. LOL!

    • Troll: 36 ulster
    • Replies: @Poco
  62. RouterAl says:

    If you were not there at the time it’s difficult to understand what went on, and who’s to blame, if anyone is indeed to blame. In America the end for the native people was assured when the repeating rifle and pistol turned up. One native with a bow was more than a match for a European with a muzzle loading rifle or pistol , before that not after. One should also factor in that without the horse which they obtained from the Spanish the plains natives would have lasted an even shorter time, difficult to be a highly efficient light cavalry on foot, or to do anything in those vast American spaces without a horse or now a pickup-truck. This “anti- and revisionist” nonsense is a luxury of a decadent society, where there is no concept of want, and so people can indulge in abstract moral grandstanding as a fundamental part of their identity. Your approval or guilt is irrelevant it happened it can never unhappen get on with things.

    • Agree: Ace
  63. Moi says:
    @Avianthro

    Agree, but please don’t insult chimps.

  64. @obwandiyag

    they could do things that clumsy, ignorant, land-leeching European farmers would have no clue about

    Another caricature, another myth. There were rather big differences in agricultural knowledge and practices in 16th-century Europe, even in the Iberian Peninsula. Between highly sophisticated agriculture in Andalusia and often more primitive practices in Castile.

    Do read up on the history of agriculture. Braudel would be a good start. And it’s available in English!

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  65. My noble ancestors were very nasty indeed. They would obliterate neighboring tribes, killing most and enslaving the rest. They were relatively advanced in agriculture — the “Three Sisters” crop method was effective, although when it’s taught today they usually leave out the part about the fields being worked by slaves. Oh yes; the 1619 Project misses the slavery mark by many centuries before Whitey ever showed up.

    Oh, and Fred: regarding women’s rights — women owned all the land (so much for that “no concept of ownership” myth), descent was matrilineal, and women were responsible for nominating and regulating the chiefs. There was no inferiority for women among the Haudenosaunee. Doesn’t seem to have made them any less warlike or more civilized, though. Yet another myth dispensed with.

    The Haudenosaunee were on their way to dominating the Northeast, and if European migration had waited a few hundred years there might have been a pair of ‘slave-based colonial empires’ at war, rather than dozens of short-sighted, treacherous and mutually antagonistic tribes eager to side with anyone who would help them slaughter the others. Lacking metallurgy, written language and unit tactics, they couldn’t have stood long against Roman legions, let alone gun-totin’ Europeans.

    That’s just humanity, same as it ever was. If you’re really concerned about savagery, don’t look too deeply at your ancestors, whoever they are. There are no noble savages. There are few enough noble civilized people. Plenty of armchair quarterbacks watching the game of history though.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
  66. @FredReeder

    I’ve seen that one on youtube. As you say, it’s just a movie, so in that vein, I steer the reader to Peak Stupidity‘s humorous review of it, called Apocalypto Now!.

    FR, if you do like that sort of thing, I recommend a 2013 movie called The Green Inferno. It’s about a bunch of young naive environmentalist types who end up down in the Peruvian jungle, oops, excuse me, rain forest, with one of those never-before-contacted (except as extras for movie cannibalism scenes) tribes. The director was a maker of horror movies, so that ought to give you an idea …

    About The Green Inferno, our 2 part review (Part 1 – – – Part 2) says “come for the underwear scenes – stay for the cannibalism”. Oh, and the ending is a nasty surprise. I won’t spoil it.

    • Replies: @awry
  67. @thotmonger

    TM, do you have information on actual Indians pressuring sports teams to lose the names? I ask because all the stuff I’ve read has the usual PC idiots pushing for this. Often the Indians would rather they keep the names, or at least they don’t care.

    Agreed about Quanah Parker and his Mom, Cynthia Ann Parker, by the way. Also, your 2nd paragraph explains what I noted, that a life of savagery was a life of freedom that even the white people of colonial America did not have. That’s not to say I wouldn’t have picked the latter life though.

    • Replies: @thotmonger
  68. This didcussion leans too far in to #MeToo territory, with its baseless allegations of rape and murder, which is admittedly a fashionable thing to do nowadays.

    For one thing, no, white women were not regularly taken captive and raped by the Indians. Families were seldom killed. That’s partially because there were seldom any white women on the frontier, much less families. It’s often forgotten that the encroachment of the Americas by the British was an almost entirely male endeavor. Women, where they existed, tended to stay behind in tbe establisbed urban settlements on the East Coast. Incidents of rape or murder or whites were rare, but notable (precisely because of their rarity).

    There’s another reason why the rape of white women was rare — Native American men generally saw white women as unattractive. As Sharon Block writes on page 227 of Rape and Sexual Power in Early America:

    “although warriors might “frequently tomahawk and scalp the most beautiful women . . . they are never known to take the slightest liberty with them bordering on indenlcency”. In an often-cited paragraph frequently that likewise explained the Indians proclivity not to rape captives, Charles Thompson agreed, “it is ttue, they do not endulge those [sexual] excesses, nor discover that fondness which is customary in Europe.”

    In early American minds, Indian men did not rape because they were sexually uninterested in (European) women. Even some historians have assumed this connection between sexual desire and wartime rape: James Axrell argues that Indians might not have raped English women because they found white women unattractive.²²

    https://books.google.com/books?id=mXJI3_wMnVMC&pg=PA227

    After all, the consensus nowadays is that all races of men prefer women of an “Asian” appearance which would include Native American women. So why would Native men want to have sex with a white woman, when there were Native women available? English women may have the esteemed distinction of being the only women in the world who are too ugly to rape.

    • Thanks: St-Germain
    • LOL: Truth
    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  69. Jake says:
    @Anonymous

    Whites of European ancestry follow their leaders, and their leaders want them made virtual serfs with imported blacks and browns as a buffer to forever bash the white trash.

    And the single biggest and most important such leader – bigger in impact and influence than the next half dozen combined – is the Anglo-Zionist Empire, is WASP culture.

  70. What came from Europe was even worse, gangs of murderers killing to steal the land. Tens of millions were killed. That a Christian religious leader (Pope Alexander VI) authorizes killing in the name of his God does not erase the crime.

  71. Jake says:
    @thotmonger

    The desire to be a savage is buried deep in the human race. It is the call of Satan. You can see it in the Crips and Bloods as well as in the frontier Indian tribes.

  72. “Gunga Din all over again.”

    Gunga or Ganges as in the river is a Hindu name while Din is of Arab origin (Dīn is an Arabic word with three general senses: judgment, custom, and religion per Wikipedia) and like water and oil it’s impossible to mix them unless you’re a Hollywood shyster.

    P. S. The wrongly named Indians of the Americas were savages to the core and anyone who says otherwise is a moron.

  73. Jake says:
    @Jimmy le Blanc

    Dances With Wolves is standard Hollywood fare: treacly liberal. The novel was written precisely to secure a movie deal and so easily appealed to the prejudices of the Hollywood power boys.

    It is, first and foremost, a reversing of James Fenimore Cooper, whose Sioux are perpetual savages and whose Pawnee need help to stave off the Sioux. As the Sioux hd moved into historic Pawnee territory and slaughtered mightily, Cooper was much close to the truth.

    Black Robe is based on a real novel by a novelist of merit: Brian Moore, an Irishman who emigrated to Canada.

  74. War brings a whole new perspective to the saying, “Be all that you can be.”

    It is easiest to hide our own nature from ourselves by believing our foes have done something to deserve to receive the results of our raw impulses.

  75. Scotist says:

    Interestingly, Hitler was a huge fan of Karl May’s Winnetou books and saw Germans as the “Indians of Europe.”

    ‘In his contribution, Frank Usbeck analyzes the interrelations between German nationalism, new spiritualism, and the German euphoria for Native Americans, in the context of the eventual appropriation of this euphoria for Nazi propaganda. Focusing on these interrelations, he argues that the Nazis pragmatically utilized popular tropes of Indian imagery to portray Germans as the Indians of Europe and to present National Socialism as the political and spiritual manifestation of natural law. Around 1900, nationalist constructions of an idealized Germanic tribal past informed concepts of social reform groups which tackled the negative effects of secularization, urbanization, and industrialization. Mystifying nature, and (re-)discovering a holistic worldview, these reformers borrowed heavily from popular German Indian imagery. The Nazis eventually portrayed both Germans and Indians as indigenous peoples who protected both their cultural integrity and their natural environment against the onrush of Western ideas and the destruction of their homelands by international capitalist greed.’

    https://journals.openedition.org/elohi/553?lang=en

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  76. The myth of the noble savage is akin to the myth of the genius IQ Cholo.

    Right Reed?

  77. Walter says:

    Long time ago Navajo fella told then-young Walter story of “Stringimupbyballs Canyon”.

    The old song is about the Creek Indians , in a way, but the Creeks referred to are not the kind with water in ’em: https://youtu.be/oXrnlZPn-xY

  78. Fred is right. Out of his numerous views, I disagree only with his hyping-up the China power, whitewashing Mexican unpleasantries & his weird obsession with ID. Otherwise, Fred Reed is a good, valuable & noble (not savage) human being.


    [MORE]

  79. I do not care about the “Indians.”

    Like the “Holocaust” and “slavery” the “genocide of the Native Americans” is just one more way to guilt trip hapless white people who’ve never harmed anybody.

    Those nice Jews stir up this shit to knock whites off balance.

    To add insult to injury, the “indigenous” people are originally from ASIA, so they have no special right to this land.

    The Indians were constantly at war with enemy tribes and genocide was simply a way of life for them.

    I will say that at least they had the balls to fight back against an invasion, while white people sit glued to the Jewtube eating potato chips as mexicans and somalians and BLM and Antifa wreck what is left of Christendom.

    • Agree: R2b, Joseph Doaks
  80. @obwandiyag

    You’re so full of shit.

    • Agree: Trickster
  81. Trickster says:

    Yawn ! So many sissy comments ! The Indians (cruel or not) were there, we wanted what they had and WE TOOK IT.

    Like it or not that is the way the world works. Obwandwagy Wagy is on the thread with his usual idiotic comments but in Africa the various tribes were no better and even today are more or less the same.

    Biff, our erstwhile Chink Quisling hiding behind a Western name ought to reflect on Mao’s wholesale slaughter of his own people. What was the number ? 67 million ? One can understand one race doing it to another but it takes a whole different level of perversion and degenerates to stick it to your own. Chinks are such creeps and that is why we have all those nukes surrounding Gookland. We whites know how this game is played and we have had centuries of hands on experience. When the shit hits the fan with China people will be looking for trolls like Biff and Chinaman to bring them to account. Better start digging those holes under their hooches and stocking up on rice and smoked dog !

    Even the Spanish Conquistadores, a hard bunch under any circumstances, were horrified at the way some of these Buck men got it off.

    In any case, who cares about the reasons. Winner takes all, losers to the Graveyard or Reservation ! Or in the case of China….ashes to ashes, dust to dust .

    • Replies: @Truth
  82. profnasty says:

    Dammed Indian savages.
    Recall. The first two Smart Bombs of the BushBastards war were delivered by a F-117 Stealth fighter jet. I saw the pilot, proudly, smiling faced, report his successful mission.
    The first bomb hit a government building. The second, a private home. I saw a robed woman screeching in emotional pain, as her young children were in the home. Did the children die quick, or was it a tortuous death?
    Now multiply this times a million or so, and you have our last 20 year war history. Nail a living child to a tree, and slowly cut his/her guts out. It’s all the same to me.

  83. Svevlad says:

    The natives were far more based than I thought. We should become savages ourselves. No mercy to enemies

  84. Trickster says:
    @Ray Caruso

    You need to block quote, put in italics and increase letter size, and highlight in red, and illuminate your comment so that the fruitcakes on UR get your message.

    I contend, that the Christ himself was crucified and hence any man is liable to do anything and anyone is liable to be on the receiving end ! Sometimes there is a reason but for some races there need be no reason. Today we have another dark race with the same tendency but that is another discussion.

    Until the cry babies on UR understand this, and they should by this time, given their first hand knowledge and observation of our true human nature, they are doomed to live in rah rah land where everyone is kind and considerate and loving.

    The predators in our midst love dupes like this. They are easy prey and like sheep only scatter when several of their own are attacked and eaten. They then congregate in a flock once again waiting to be devoured at some time in the future.

    WAKE UP SHEEP !

  85. No offense, but I want my sports teams to be named for blood thirsting savages. Heck, I would take Nazis and Bolsheviks for sport names. Neocons are a psychotic savages, so that name would simply be too crass. Injun names conjure up a past long gone, which if I was an American Indian I would want all the sports teams to keep Indian names. It is better than reality. Sad to say but the American Indian seems to be on the hit list of erasure, and we original American whites aren’t responsible for that. Sadly as sports teams go all I have remotely to blood lust is the Eagles and Nittany Lions, and apparently both have been neutered. Don’t you all think Philadelphia SS has a ring to it? Come to think about it, it would be an insult to the SS.

    • Replies: @Trickster
  86. @Kratoklastes

    As an American who lived in New Zealand many years, and who has NZ citizenship, I say, “Thank you” for that exceptional comment. Most outsiders don’t know the real history of NZ, and your small slice is quite revealing of its true nature when it comes to relations with the Maori (actually, “Moli”, as they corrected me early on; Mowry is a proper English name, and thus another form of the lovely English colonial domination that extends to all aspects of life, including one’s name for one’s self having to be ‘corrected’.)

    My family and I came there thinking it was paradise, both environmentally and socially, and were soon disabused of that fantasy. Within three days, we all watched the documentary, “Operation 8” (watch free her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzgQiZr2e4), and we collectively realized we had been fooled into thinking NZ was somehow different than any other place.

    Yes, it is lovely there in a UK pastoral way, but a tour of the “Kauri Museum” up in the north of the North Island will show a small and out-of-the-way picture, if you know where to look, that depicts what the Islands were like before the rampage of British colonialism stripped them like locusts. It was shocking, but probably shouldn’t have been. We were told of it by a wonderful pakeha environmentalist pediatrician (retired) who harbored no illusions about NZ’s history and shared it with us (as we were rural neighbors), unflinchingly. Sadly, he died only two years after our arrival, which we deeply mourned, as we do all truth-tellers and lovers of justice who pass prematurely.

    I must contrast his enlightened attitude towards the indigenous peoples and the NZ environment with that of seemingly every other white Kiwi male we encountered, who almost universally privately despised the “Maori” as ever-fornicating primitives who owed everything to their natural superiors, the Brits, and who should be happy and give thanks every day that civilization was magnanimously bestowed on them by their UK conquerors. It was sad and disgusting in equal measure. But we smiled and endured, never agreeing, just listening and learning.

    Ultimately, we came away knowing there are no real ‘paradises’ where humans are concerned, and peoples of all stripes and colors are pretty much the same everywhere. It’s simple really: treat others as you wish to be treated, be decent and kind, and be lucky enough to live among others who feel similarly, and virtually any place will seem like paradise.

    Sad that it appears too many of us seem unable to live up to such simple standards on a consistent basis……

    Thanks again for a great comment. And to Fred Reed for another exceptional essay.

    Long live The Unz Review!

    • Agree: Nancy
    • Replies: @Lot
  87. AaronB says:

    I think by this point in history we can safely conclude that all stories of virtuous us and evil them, are false. And vise versa.

    But mankind is addicted to hope. Everyone has his little scheme of the good guys and bad guys. Few people can recognize that everyone is bad (and good).

    Kudos Fred for not ending your piece with the shallowness I have come to expect from Unz writers, that if the Indians were bad the White settlers who were fighting them must have been noble and good. It is the rare man these days who can see that both sides are bad (and good).

  88. Anonymous[172] • Disclaimer says:
    @Truiop

    Perhaps:

    But present day Europeans are the biggest cowardly feminized milquetoast pussies ever to disgrace this earth.

    • Replies: @Truth
  89. To add, unnecessarily, to the reading list: Eckert’s That Dark and Bloody River, an account of the early years of the settlement of the Ohio River valley. I would describe it as both horrifying and balanced. Let’s just say that both the whites and the injuns were generally up for spilling lots-o-blood and having savage fun while doing so.

    For myself, I’m planning to read several of the titles cited earlier.

  90. @Biff

    They aren’t “stories on the internet”. These accounts were recorded contemporaneously by people who could read and write and where there in person to witness the atrocities or the aftermath.

    There is a reason the Founding Fathers referred to the Siberians as

    “the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes, and conditions.”

    • Replies: @Alfred
  91. @obwandiyag

    The Indians learned scalping from white men.

    That is a lie, and the savages always were and are you turd worlders.

    As far as scalping, in around the year 1,300 AD, one tribe of Siberians warred against another tribe. After slaughtering all the men in battle, the victorious Savages proceeded to murder, scalp and EAT every single one of the 498 women and children of the losing tribe.

    And we know this because in the 1970’s we found and were able to examine the bones of the women and children, who all bore distinctive cut marks or breaks where the savages sucked out the marrow. The site is called the Crow Creek Massacre.

    And anyone who thinks the Americans “did more often” the tortures and savagery the Siberians inflicted on white people is delusional, and/or some sort of low IQ African activist.

    • Agree: GMC
    • Thanks: Ace
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  92. AaronB says:

    That being said, as John Keegan writes in his history of warfare, Europeans pioneered a particularly brutal and deadly form of warfare. Primitive warfare was more about intimidation and less about actual killing.

    Hunter-gatherers, also, were indeed more egalitarian and practiced a less violent form of warfare.

    But the noble savage idea was not about primitives being pacifist – primitives were frequently admired for their warrior like qualities. What was noble about them were their virtues- courage, stoicism, simplicity, honesty, etc. They weren’t corrupted by the arts and wiles needed to survive in civilized life, deception, servility, etc.

    It was also about the greater physical health and better diet of primitives, and the free and easy lifestyle out in the open air – only a few hours a day needed to secure food, and that more like sport than work (hunting), and the rest spent in play, or telling stories around the campfire. And also yhe joys of nomadic.

    Most White children who were captured by the Indians and were later returned to civilized society, hated it and ran away to live again with the Indians. It was a much more enjoyable life.

    The fact is that civilized life is not satisfying, and is in every way worse than hunter gatherer life. Historians dispute why mankind abandoned hunter fathering at all and became sedentary in towns and cities. It was a worse life in every way.

    Recent evidence suggests mankind did not do so willingly, but had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the cities. It may be that civilization is something a small group forced on everyone else- probably to exploit them. New states were constantly trying to drag the so called barbarians on their edges into settled life – but isn’t that always the way? The unfree cannot stand that others are free.

    • Agree: St-Germain
  93. BuelahMan says:
    @but an humble craftsman

    He’s a jew. He cannot help but lie.

  94. çakan says:

    Opinions of a non-American: blant, but true. I would’nt do any atrocity described above, yet given thousand chance I would stand by natives in every.

    • Replies: @Ace
  95. Sparkon says:
    @glib

    Fred said:

    Yes, I know. Quite. Today one shouldn’t refer to torturing stone-age savages as torturing stone-age savages. No, the Indians were contemplative, spiritual beings at one with nature, living simply and nobly, like a pudding of Buddha and Henry David Thoreau.

    Ah, yes…from one extreme to the other – all black or white with no shades of gray.

    You wrote:

    Anyhow, the nobility of the Indians, at least those of the Plains, came from a single thing: they ate only meat, and had none of the psychological problems and perversions that Westerners, with their grain ravaged guts, had and have.

    A diet of meat only leads to scurvy and other serious health problems, so I think it highly likely that, while the buffalo may have been the main course of some Plains Indians after they got the horse, it was not the only course, and the women continued to gather berries, fruits, and nuts, dig up roots, catch fish and so on, to supplement the diet of buffalo meat.

    The wild strawberry’s range includes virtually the entire United States. I think it is highly doubtful anyone would give up such a tasty treat simply because they had buffalo meat. In many regions, various nuts, wild cherries, blueberries, paw paw, grapes and other berries and fruit were there for the picking.

    In any event, the most populous and numerous Indian nations and tribes were not on the Great Plains, but rather in the Eastern Woodlands, like the Iroquois, who did capture enemies to torture, roast, and eat, but who also cultivated the Three Sisters of corn, beans, and squash.

    Many of the Woodland tribes were already in decline or had disappeared completely by the time Europeans began writing about them, most destroyed by smallpox and other European diseases against which the natives had no immunity.

  96. gotmituns says:

    The only Indians I ever knew were good guys who worked well and were/are my friends. I hope this video comes through. It’s of a friend of mine (Harold McComber who’s passed on now). I miss him and all those other guys I worked high steel with. I always remember another friend of mine (an Irish guy) saying of the work as it was done then, “If God had thought of anything better than this, he would’ve kept it for himself.” I concur with that statement 100%.
    High Steel – YouTube

    High Steel – YouTube

    13:47

    Jun 18, 2014 · This short documentary offers a dizzying view of the Mohawk of Kahnawake who work in Manhattan erecting the steel frames of skyscrapers. Famed for their skil…

    Author: NFB

    Views: 563K

    • Thanks: turtle, Alfred, Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @thotmonger
    , @Lost American
  97. No discussion of this sort would be complete without bringing up Mark Twain’s essay regarding The Noble Red Man. Twain observed that most of the books about Indians were written by white men (of both sexes) on the East Coast who had never seen an Indian in real life. They were therefore writing romance novels about a fictional Indian that did not exist. Thus his essay begins:

    In books he is tall and tawny, muscular, straight and of kingly presence; he has a beaked nose and an eagle eye.

    His hair is glossy, and as black as the raven’s wing; out of its massed richness springs a sheaf of brilliant feathers; in his ears and nose are silver ornaments; on his arms and wrists and ankles are broad silver bands and bracelets…..

    Twain then proceeds to described the Indian as he actually is:

    Such is the Noble Red Man in print. But out on the plains and in the mountains, not being on dress parade, not being gotten up to see company, he is under no obligation to be other than his natural self, and therefore:

    He is little, and scrawny, and black, and dirty; and, judged by even the most charitable of our canons of human excellence, is thoroughly pitiful and contemptible

    Twain’s entire essay is comedy gold, and well worth reading. The link is below.

    https://twain.lib.virginia.edu/projects/rissetto/redman.html

    • Replies: @KenH
    , @obwandiyag
  98. @Scotist

    https://listverse.com/2017/08/20/10-plans-hitler-would-have-put-in-motion-if-the-nazis-had-won/

    Plans Hitler Would Have Put In Motion If The Nazis Had Won

    Of course, some points are debatable.

    • Thanks: Scotist
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  99. Trickster says:
    @Old and Grumpy

    I agree. These days every silly little thing triggers somebody and we need another somebody to tell the complainers to get lost.

    Call a team Mighty Ducks and the animal activists are after you.
    Give an Indian tribe name and the same thing
    Paint your face black and you are a nigger hater
    Paint your face white and be accused of white privilege
    Plait your hair in corn rows and its cultural appropriation

    Ever notice nobody ever took child molester Mike Jackson and his bleached face to task ?? Hello !!!

    And the black Ghetto Hood Rats rocking blond weaves bought with the proceeds of stolen goods ?? Thats okay !

    Say Nigger and you got problems. Say Motherfucker Cracker and you got applause.

    These days to even scratch his balls a man needs to self isolate in a dark closet for fear of upsetting someone. People have nothing better to do than whine and complain.

    Trickster’s Law states : The devil finds complaints for idle minds to spout !

    A simple way to put an end to all this is to use two simple words: Fuck off !

  100. Fred, I think get the point: The next time “Judeo-Christian” settlers and armies want steal somebody else’s homelands, continents, countries, ancestral territories, food, water and vital resources they need to pick a more cultured and understanding hostile somebody who is kinder, nicer and more peaceful, sensitive, reasonable, logical, materialistic, money-grubbing, hierarchically organized , deeply corrupt, easily bribed and freedom-hating group without any particular transcendant values. Then there can certainly be a happy ending to our glorious historical narratives (unless these are soon going to be penned mainly in Chinese).

    Apart from the starry-eyed historical illiterates you are apparently lecturing here, Fred, there has never been much doubt among acquisitive whites about the evils of the tribal culture they sought to extirpate. Thomas Jefferson, who extended the nascent U.S. empire to the Pacific in 1803 in a cash transaction with Napolean, wrote in his 1776 Declaration of Independence:

    He (George III) has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    You blew a chance to quote that. Blaming the victims for the crimes — land ownership apparently being a white birth right — made potent war propaganda, then and now.

    The disappearance of indigenous cultures north of the Rio Grande put an end to a sustainable and apparently stable social model that had long since vanished from Europe. What happened to Amerindian societies after 1491 demonstrated the incompatibility of the alien regime of private ownership with any possible alternative based on communal stewardship of resources. Powerful economic incentives to control and to own rendered coexistence impossible. Europe’s rigid hierarchical organization (the master key to success in all serious wars) made short work of the boundless personal freedom of people who would never have believed that they must work in order to live. The newcomers called the change “progress”.

    At least the French Empire in Canada was slightly less rapacious. But the good will that sustained the grand alliance of Amerindians and Frenchmen was outnumbered and outgunned by the British and their acquisitive colonists in the French and Indians War, arguably started by Maj. George Washington. There followed two centuries of open season on hapless natives all the way to the Pacific. The French also had harbored no illusions about the nature of the Amerindian tribes, although they genuinely tried to understand them and were far more inclined to marry them, giving rise to Canada’s numerous halfbreed Metis.

    Pierre Boucher (~1622-1717), early Quebec’s greatest hero, took an Amerindian woman as his first wife and a probable Metisse as his second wife, mother of 15 kids. A true humanist, he presented a very sympathetic and fascinating picture of Amerindian tribal culture in his famous 1664 book, Histoire veritable et naturelle des moeurs et productions du pays de la Nouvelle France, vulgairement dite le Canada, written for Louis XIV. A linguist as well as a diplomat and soldier, Boucher knew the tribes well because he had lived among both the Hurons and the Algonquins.

    He was well aware of the intransigent Algonquian world view that any man who works for another man is a slave. Tribal woodsmen could not be enslaved. Long before the rise of feminism, Boucher sympathized with the hard-working tribal women because he knew that the Algonquin male had only three occupations in life: fishing, hunting and making war. But he still admired these rugged, self-sufficient people and managed to befriend them such as they were. He was a true Christian.

    Fast forward to the United States today, where a new president has been acclaimed by media moguls because a simple vote count is no longer possible, a bogus epidemic has been used to install de facto martial law by corrupt anti-democratic technocrats and various imperial wars continue to simmer in order to convey wealth from struggling working families to the Wall Street oligarchs and Pentagon contractors at the top of the social pyramid.

    Lewis Henry Morgan, the American ethnologist most lionized by Friedrich Engels, warned his own white countrymen a century and a half ago that unchecked resource exploitation inherent in private ownership could eventually destroy human society. In his 1877 opus Ancient Society, the three-stage evolutionary view — savagery to barbarism to civilization — offered an unflattering comparison to the Iroquois nation which adopted him:

    Everything runs smoothly without soldiers, gendarmes or police, without nobles, kings, governors, prefects or judges, without prisons, without trials … The household is run communistically by a number of families, the land is tribal property, only the small gardens being temporarily assigned to the households. The communistic household and the gens know their responsibility toward the aged, the sick and the disabled in war. All are free and equal — including the women,

    as excerpted by Engels.

  101. @lloyd

    I think they were starving an eating each other ( reduce surplus population, leaving whatever food there is for the survivors) way before the English arrived. There really isn’t that much food on those on those islands to begin with and it doesn’t look as though they were farming in any meaningful way. But all in all it would have been better had whites stayed in Europe and kept the others out.

    • Replies: @lloyd
  102. Did the Indian’s just sprout up here emerging/evolving from some obscure plains animal?

    “After spending the winter in Vinland, Eriksson and his crew sailed home to windswept Greenland with badly needed timber and plentiful portions of grapes. Eriksson, who would succeed Erik the Red as chief of the Greenland settlement after his father’s death, never returned to North America, but other Vikings continued to sail west to Vinland for at least the ensuing decade. In spite of North America’s more bountiful resources, the Viking settlers remained in desolate Greenland. This was perhaps due to the violent encounters—including the slaying of Eriksson’s brother Thorwald–they had with the indigenous population of North America.”

    https://www.history.com/news/the-viking-explorer-who-beat-columbus-to-america

  103. anon[263] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dumbo

    Maybe that has something to do with the fact that non-white paganism doesn’t have traditions and myths edited and filtered through Christianity.

  104. jsigur says:

    Perhaps the Indians were sending a message to other Europeans so inclined to come at the behest of the US government, “Get off our land!”
    Even if the Indians were “over violent” It was YOU stealing their land, this being a vacuum that would eventually suck 90% of all the original Indians off the continent
    No, this line of attack has always disgusted me and back in 2015 was used ad-naseum, to grant whites the right to steal their land. How presumptuous of European kings to claim land that they “discovered” for the crown!
    As much as I hate the arguments you set forth, to make claims glorifying the Indian only is nauseating as well.
    I do believe there is a better way
    Attacking a culture is something Jews encourage prior to going to war to make the 99% willing to die for state or king. Do we really need to apply tactics like that?

  105. Ouch, you’re going to swing from the social justice hanging tree for this one Fred. We must never let let the truth get in the way of a good anti-white agenda.
    Cheers

    • Agree: Joseph Doaks
  106. Agent76 says:

    NOV 4, 2020 12 Influential Native American Leaders

    While our Founding Fathers, presidents and military leaders are remembered as heroes of American culture, it’s often overlooked how indigenous people contributed to many of the major events in the nation’s history.

    https://www.biography.com/news/influential-native-americans-list

    American Genocide the Trail of Tears

    Andrew Jackson’s Indian Removal Act passed in 1830 was in effect for the 15,000 Native Cherokee’s with an estimated 4,000,000+ dead after the two years in which they had to relocate east of the Mississippi from the Northern Georgia area in 1838 and 1839 in an exchange of land which was never accepted tby ANY Native American tribe or leader.

    • Replies: @Anon
  107. glib says:
    @Sparkon

    A diet of meat only leads to scurvy and other serious health problems, so I think it highly likely that, while the buffalo may have been the main course of some Plains Indians after they got the horse, it was not the only course, and the women continued to gather berries, fruits, and nuts, dig up roots, catch fish and so on, to supplement the diet of buffalo meat.

    I am sorry, but this is an incredibly ignorant statement.

    • Agree: Nancy
    • Replies: @Sparkon
  108. @Anonymous

    I’m not sure all White Southerner’s will agree with your shallow observations of White history..
    https://www.educationviews.org/the-northern-war-of-aggression-against-the-south-rages-on-with-bidens-policies/

    • Replies: @Ace
  109. Warfare, with its attendant savagery, is the great constant that runs all through human history. We are a preternaturally aggressive species, but nevertheless we are naturally evolved primates; and primate societies are built on male dominance hierarchies. Evolution selects for aggression: the most aggressive males earn the greatest access to territory, food, and females. Consequently they enjoy the highest survival rates and reproductive success.

    A big part of the perennial attraction of organized warfare is that it allows low status males to engage in high status dominance-aggression behaviors normally forbidden to them. Young primates, with only rare exceptions, will eagerly put their very lives at risk for the opportunity to imitate the high status behavior of dominant males.

    The human genome is remarkable consistent, with none of the branching diversity that is observed in other primates. Our love of war, which traditionally ended with the slaughter of the rival pack, is suggested to explain this unnatural variance. Today, we call such acts genocide, and enjoy the pleasure of righteous indignation when condemning other nation/packs for doing it. Meanwhile our leaders carry it out in our name time after time in place after place with barely a whisper of protest.

    • Agree: Joseph Doaks
  110. Rabidity says:

    Yeah, well, in the end we shot burned diseased and tortured their entire civilization keeping samples in zoological internment camps to occasionally visit to remind ourselves that “we are the winners”.

  111. Bookish1 says:
    @Biff

    What do you mean nothing has changed? Whites are so pussified that they run from negroes and let them take over their neighborhoods instead of standing their ground.

    • Replies: @lloyd
  112. Bookish1 says:
    @Anonymous

    tell us how Powell said we should respond.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  113. ken says:

    Great article Fred. Are there any good books about pre-Columbian Indian violence?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  114. Georgia says:
    @cranc

    There were a few Tribes that were organized as you mention (New England area) but the reality of the rest was savage and they continually raided, raped, and tortured the others — the truth is many of the tribes were happy to receive the modernizations of the “whites” —

    Black Elk the famous Medicine Man, contrary to the lying book written about him and widely distributed and referenced by all the “Noble Savage” propagandists, realized Christianity was the truth and the end of the old ways and became a devout Catholic and Catechist of the Catholic Church.

    He converted many Indians and at his death stated he believed God would show to all present an act showing His great Mercy toward him– Black Elk’s daughter recorded that this happened and at his death/burial the sky lit up with amazing miraculous lights somewhat like the “Northern Lights” — none of this true history is ever mentioned by the hate YT propagandist liars of course….

    They even used to assign for reading the book in school/college on his life -“Black Elk Speaks”. He stated he felt the book was a lie because it intentionally did not reveal his conversion to Christianity and his true view that the old ways had ended and Jesus Christ was the truth, the book made it seem he believed in and clung to the old ways and this was false….

  115. KenH says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    Just like many of the white men who volunteered to man the forts in the plains thought they would be greeted by statuesque and exotic looking Indian beauties based on the myths promulgated by white writers in the Northeast. But as Goodrich says in Scalp Dance the reality was that Indian women were often squat, ugly and disease ridden which was a rude awakening for the men who came to regret their decision.

  116. liamjq says:
    @Stonehands

    “Romantic sexual love” ???…..where did T.R. Fehrenbach do his research? Mills & Boon ?

  117. Alfred says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    There is a reason the Founding Fathers referred to the Siberians as

    “the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes, and conditions.”

    The reference in the Declaration of Independence was to the native American Indians – nothing to do with the Siberians who live on another continent. 🙂

    FWIO, the Siberians and many other peoples seem to have survived in Russia and its USSR predecessor more or less intact. The Russians traded with these people and did not exterminate them or kill off their animals and means of survival. Clearly, the Orthodox peoples have a different perspective on the world.

    There remain a considerable number of indigenous groups, between them accounting for below 10% of total Siberian population (about 4,500,000), some of which (the earliest existing, usually the northernmost) are distantly genetically related to indigenous peoples of the Americas.

    Indigenous peoples of Siberia

    • Thanks: Joseph Doaks
  118. Ace says:
    @UltimateOrdnance

    Great. Run with that. Just go crazy. Lay it all out. Connect the dots.

  119. @martin_2

    No actually the demands that Dan Snyder drop the Redskins name have come from the Times of London and other more “respectable” publications. The fact that “American football” isn’t big in the UK hardly means their press isn’t going to cover it and poke their noses where they don’t belong.

    This is from the country that doesn’t care about American football.

    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/parliament-members-to-nfl-change-redskins-name-or-forget-london/

    And if you deny the reality of the Hindu genocide you’re really a clown of the highest order.

  120. Ace says:
    @animalogic

    And socialism was a bridge to a much more noble arrangement. I have lived my entire life without reading one word of Nietzsche. I lack therefor, perhaps, but judging from the stupidity of that thought of his, I think not.

    • Replies: @animalogic
  121. KenH says:

    Because the settlers followed the policy usual across the continent of lying to the Indians, breaking treaties, pushing them out of the best land, killing off the buffalo on which they depended and sometimes massacring whole villages.

    Blah, blah, blah. So Fred treats us to woke garbage that yes, the Indians were very cruel and vicious but, only because the white man badly mistreated them. Or perhaps because wokesters say that evil white pepo deliberately killed 500 million Indians with the smallpox virus even though there weren’t much more than two million in what is today the lower 48.

    But the Iroquois, Sioux, Comanche and other stronger tribes lied to weaker tribes, broke treaties with them, pushed them out of the best land, killed their livestock, stole their horses, tortured them for sport, kidnapped and raped their women and and sometimes massacred the whole village of the weaker tribe. Indians also broke tribes with white settlers. Yet when white settlers did it to Indians then it’s cause for hand wringing, self flagellation, iconoclasm, reparations and we must genocide ourselves with mass third world immigration.

    The white European settlers weren’t perfect nor were they always right but they were sometimes victims of Indian treachery and savagery and eventually learned that you fight Indian savagery with equal or greater savagery. If the white settlers hewed to Marquess de Queensbury rules then they would have been wiped out which their descendants today seem to welcome.

  122. Ace says:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    He did say “contemporary.”

    • Replies: @Johnny Walker Read
  123. Anonymous[770] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bookish1

    Banning further third world immigration. Absolutely with no exceptions possible.
    A serious program of repatriation of those settled here – no expense, sacrifice or effort to be spared on this objective.

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
  124. why are you whining about “savages” a hundred yrs ago?
    YOU are supporting your politicians and armed terrorist forces that are doing WAY worse things as i type ALL around the world.
    You murcans are truly bigoted and uneducated.(most of you, not all)

    • Replies: @Flimpkin-4
  125. @Kratoklastes

    Too bad the Redheads and Blondes didn’t get the same treatment from the Maori invasion that the Maoris got from the British.

    • LOL: JM
  126. Sparkon says:
    @glib

    You are sorry. Argument by assertion is incredibly weak and fallacious.

    Argument by assertion is the logical fallacy where someone tries to argue a point by merely asserting that it is true, regardless of contradiction. While this may seem stupid, it’s actually an easy trap to fall into and is quite common..

    Nullius in Verba.

    It means “take no man’s word.”

    So if you’ve got a factual counterargument to any part of my comment, let’s see it.

    Otherwise…

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
    , @glib
  127. “Why the grotesque torture? Because the Indians enjoyed it.”

    The Indians were known for having very crude and slow methods of torture to kill their victims with but it wasn’t only for pure enjoyment. Certain tribes believed that the screams of their enemies gave power to their war God who would then grant them more power over their enemies. The best way to make someone scream is to slowly torture them to death… so it was more then anything a type of satanic ritual.

    Of course their were tribes who tried to live as peacefully as possible and who themselves were victims of many of the warrior tribes.

    • Replies: @utu
  128. ruralguy says:

    If you read settlers’ accounts, you’ll see how severely the true history has been rewritten. These accounts mention many times, stories about native Sioux girls committing suicide to avoid the horrible assaults they endured.

  129. @Achmed E. Newman

    I recall hearing at least a couple token Indians on National Public Radio making the case to change the names. But maybe there was no such consensus within or among the remaining tribes, probably because they were never really invited.

    Not unlike the immigration conspiracy of recent decades. While raised up as both a heroic figure and tragic victim of early colonization, to what extent have the views of modern Indians been included in the recent debate about the mass immigration?

    e.g. “How do you feel about the additional ~2 million people arriving into USA territory every year?” At the very least, the wiser of them would express concern about the ecological footprint.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  130. Ram says:

    “History” is written by the victor.

    The “civilised” US troops did not torture the Afghanis and Iraqis using savage methods but civilised methods even perverting the language to do what they did.

  131. I would blame rather north American Indians then whites from England.
    Spanish wanted gold while English wanted land.
    America is huge land sparsely populated. Indians in North America were meat eaters.
    The game was truly in abandon. So the settlers did not disturb Indian way of life too much.
    It was Indians who were robbing whites for what whites did have. Horses and all kind of equipment what Indians wanted. It was Indians who were making night rides on settler homes for purpose of stealing and robbing, and eventually massacring.
    ………………………………………………………………
    Eventually whites responded. To determine which side was more cruel is irrelevant.l

    • Replies: @lloyd
  132. Ragno says:

    Finally…..a top-shelf Fred Reed column!

    I also recommend one of the very VERY few Hollywood Westerns to deal honestly with native American barbarism, ULZANA’S RAID. Great script and dialogue, too, like when the old Indian scout (Burt Lancaster) is asked the size of the Apache raiding party and their “probable intention”:

    “Their probable intention is to burn, maim, torture, rape and murder.”

  133. 3g4me says:
    @Avianthro

    @14 Avianthro: Anyone who, with a straight face, recommends a book written by Jared Diamond as a legitimate source of facts and knowledge is neither honest nor interested in intelligent dispute.

  134. Alfred says:
    @Sparkon

    A diet of meat only leads to scurvy and other serious health problems

    I guess that is why the Eskimos were so unhealthy compared to their descendents. </sarc

    Anthropologist Vilhjalmur Stefansson studied in the early 20th century, Eskimos in Alaska and has documented the fact that their diet consisted of 90% of meat and fish. During his stay with the Eskimos, and I accepted their diet, and with its entire crew ate only meat and fish for a period of 6-9 months each year. This was pure “zero carb” ketogenic diet (with no carbs) and thus Stefansson fed all nine years while he lived with the Eskimos. When he returned to city life and his experience, the doctors were all astounded by the fact that his health was not at all disturbed.

    Ketogenic diet and Vitamin C

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Jiminy
  135. Truth says:

    Man, y’all Honkeez & Injun sho’ iz vylint.

  136. @Avianthro

    Jared Diamond? Isn’t he the guy who thinks that the Congolese would be running their own space program had they had navigable rivers?

    • Replies: @JM
  137. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Historically, the Sioux aka Lakota, weren’t spit until the Spainiard’s ponies arrived. Prior to that, they’d for centuries been whipdogs for the ‘Conjous. All Sioux believed ambush, death and justice was honorable–so long as they administered it.

    Fred (the Aztec shill) Reed, in his usual fairytale format, here provides another “China Is A Beautiful Place” infomercial to us, on behalf of satisfying his contempt for everything american.

    Upon departing the military, and prior to going legit, I brought my chilhood training as cowboy into the Pacific Northwest, working outfits so far into the wilderness, that you drove 80 miles to the closest town of several hundred. Indian tribes wholly decimated by alcohol. Sobriety to them consisted of short periods of intense hatred of the white-eyes. Pathos in the genes. And yes, they were my friends, and no, I could never trust them. Today they run casinos, and in my white-eyes, the shit has finally found the top of the shit pile.

    Maybe ex-pat Fred’s mexican wife can help him do a story on the steroidal butchery skills of the Aztec indians. Or maybe not, ’cause if he did, there wouldn’t be americans down there to support Fred’s collateral accusations of white guilt.

    • Replies: @Jett Rucker
  138. AK says:
    @Avianthro

    oohhhh…Jared Diamond. Isn’t he the academic twinkle who said that agriculture “was the worst mistake in the history of the human race?” Probably while munching an organic arugula salad riding the air on his way to an echo-chamber of fellow woke-istas?

    Yup…Guns, Germs, Steel, explain everything. Except for those pesky Greeks whose accident of geography gave them nothing but a hardscrabble life on rocky hillsides, and ideas like private property, constitutional government, contractual agreements, infantry warfare, subordination of the military to a civil authority, and individual rights. Ideas, more powerful than the resources one finds in abundance in places like North America and Africa, where the indigenes never seemed to figure out how to exploit, maybe because they were bereft of ideas…..

    We also can talk how Western civilization was technologically stagnant until the matrix of Western Christianity allowed the melding of faith and reason that gave you your flush toilet, heated home, and Macbook.

    There is at lease one chimp in this discourse, one I am sure well-trained to screech “Galileo!” and “Giordano Bruno!” Don’t keep the class waiting.

    • Agree: ivan
  139. Hegar says:

    I see Fred Reed continues his usual tactic. He chooses a title and starts a story in a way that right-wingers will read, and then attacks Whites.

    He knows readers here are well aware of the murders and rapes committed by non-Whites in North America – he can’t change that. So his object here is to connect that to violence done by Whites in the past. When BLM criminals attack Whites, you should think “but Whites have done bad things in the past!”

    If he wrote at a leftist site, he would of course leave out the part about what the Indians did. No equal storytelling there.

    Fred Reed is married to a Mexican and lives in Mexico surrounded by her relatives. He ridicules Whites and portrays “racists” as dumb and fat while Mexicans are morally superior. But he’ll put something in the beginning to pull in right-wing readers.

    In the end, he wants you to shrug and say “both sides have done bad things”. The usual B.S. The fact is Whites are far morally superior to the Mexicans he loves so much. And if it wasn’t for White science and technology Fred Reed would never be able to push his agenda on the internet.

  140. Truth says:
    @Trickster

    What level have you made on Call of Duty, Old Sport?

    • Replies: @Trickster
  141. Truth says:
    @Anonymous

    Are you including or excluding yourself?

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  142. @St-Germain

    At least the French Empire in Canada was slightly less rapacious. But the good will that sustained the grand alliance of Amerindians and Frenchmen

    Funny you would write that. The first Frenchman who tried to live among the Stone Age Savages was Etienne Brule.

    The savages murdered, scalped, and ATE Etienne. As was the savage’s custom in those days.

    And isn’t it interesting that the French refused to fight alongside of these mostly peaceful Siberian savages after they murdered and ate 1,500 unarmed men, women and children following the siege of Fort William Henry? They were so disgusting and savage that the French abandoned their own allies in time of war.

    You must be one of the eastern maidens Twain referred to in his essay about the Noble Red Man and their admirers.

  143. lloyd says: • Website
    @anonsasmaug

    They were by now growing Western crops, potatoes etc. So their populations had grown. As for eating each other. The Hauhau rebels reverted to cannibalism. But the Christian Kingites in the Waikato had foresworn it. If the Kingites had been able to control their own people, there would not have been a war. A Maori Kingdom in centre of North Island was viable. I look upon the idea nostalgically. Life was generally miserable for most whites living in those regions as slaves to the banks. An international trading city in Auckland and Northland receiving sustenance from the Maori Kingdom to the south. That is how things were shaping. Of course the young Maori would be clamouring to live in Auckland. In 1858, the newspapers were trumpeting that the Maoris would become extinct in a few years. That caused an uproar among the Maori “deplorables” and precipitated the uprising. The British army was sent in to save the situation. All very different in the South Island. The Maori there were victims of North Island cannibal raids and welcomed the British colonisation. As I suppose the lesser of two evils. This sorry history had been glossed over. In 1984, a new Government came in and restarted it all again by offering reparations to every Maori invented tribal story.

  144. semeonx says:
    @Kratoklastes

    Ok. No real problem with the History. I do however have an issue with being called untrustworthy
    by i presume my fellow Kiwi. Seriously. ” you can’t trust pakeha”.
    I think rather the issue is one of People and Systems that Lie. Certain powerful people and an Imperial System that lied and cheated to get what it wanted. Nothing new there, and a universal human failing.

    Are you suggesting Maori are universally trustworthy. In my almost daily experience, they like all other people are a mixture of both.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  145. @Sparkon

    With respect to Glib’s fantasies, a few years ago the largest ever study of pre-Columbus Siberian bones was carried out in a multi- disciplinary study. Over 11,000 partial Siberian skeletons were studied.

    They found that the bones showed beyond all doubt that Siberians lived lives of war, pestilence, disease, starvation, and death from easily treatable conditions.

    Glib and others like him are fantasists, imagining some sort of Siberian Wakanda existed in NA prior to the white man.

    • Replies: @Nancy
    , @glib
    , @Sparkon
  146. lloyd says: • Website
    @Zarathustra

    D H Lawrence in his sojourn in New Mexico in the 1920s prophesised the Indians would rise again and plague the whites. He was right. They have risen again. But now they speak Spanish. Prior to the Western myth that started in the late nineteenth century, the Indians had more or less the same reputation as the “bad hombres” in America today. Injun Joe in Tom Sawyer epitomises their reputation as morose, dangerous criminals.

    • Thanks: Zarathustra
  147. Rayofhope says:

    Europeans were the invaders. Natives were the defenders of their land. In the end invaders won and wrote history. Anything can be justified with clever writing and Hollywood story telling.
    In the last 500 years how many native people were killed, maimed, brain washed and violently converted to the Religions of the Invaders? Defenders of their lands are always characterized as “Savages, Subhumans and Slaves”.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  148. The author is just trying to excuse the colonization and genocide of native nations by colonizing nations, in general, in order include excusing the colonization and genocide of the native Palestinian nation by the colonizing Jewish nation.

    When nation A colonizes nation B, then B doesn’t fight back according to A’s rules, that doesn’t excuse A’s actions. For example: the Brits were kicked out of Kenya by the Mau Mau, who used some decidedly non-British tactics.

    But today nobody calls, the Kenyans savages, because the Kenyans won and history is written by the winners. And this article in Unz.com is just another example.

    • Replies: @Dr. Charles Fhandrich
  149. rednecks mad. i am waiting for the “we wuz white kangz” bullshit about the original white people in america.

    this shit is like the yakub story for dumb white people

  150. Mike Tre says:
    @meamjojo

    Whataboutism, the last refuge of the intellectually dishonest.

  151. Mike Tre says:
    @thotmonger

    “Why it is Indians are pressuring professional sports teams to lose names like Redskins. and Braves, escapes me.”

    It’s not the Amerindians demanding this. It’s largely driven by the obscenely over represented Jewish sportswriter contingent, who IMO mostly want the Indian names removed because it competes with the monopoly Jews have on victimhood regarding the holocaust.

    20-30 years ago when the Florida State Seminoles football team was really good some white/jew gudthinkers decided they were going to protest the college’s use of the Seminole tribe’s namesake for their mascot. After some initial awareness was raised, some silly journalist decided it might be a good idea to see what the remaining Seminole tribal association thought about it. BIG mistake. Turns out they had no problem with the college using the name. The issue was quickly dropped. *

    *I’m going by my admittedly poor memory of this so I may some of the details wrong.

  152. Morality is a complicated business.
    We condemn sin though we still do it. We recognize the sins of ourselves and our fathers even as we maintain pride in ourselves and our heritage.
    We condemn our enemies for their sins even as we respect them for their strengths.
    These contradictions don’t make a man a hypocrite. Refusing to admit the contradictions makes a man a hypocrite.
    A hypocrite is someone who is hypo-critical, i.e. under-critical, i.e. not complicated.
    The correct course is to recognize that we come from something that was both better and worse than what we are now, that we should honor whatever was best in the past, admit but not dwell on whatever was worse, and take a cautious and practical approach to any moral improvements we are contemplating for the future.
    With that attitude, both the white settlers and the Indians come out looking pretty good. The settlers were courageous and strong and brought a great civilization into being on this continent. The Indians were brave, hard fighters, and loyal to their people and their land.
    The Indians were indeed savage murderers, and the whites did indeed massacre Indians, but so what? Things are tough all over and at least most of us don’t want to repeat that part of it now, so let it go. The brutality of the frontier still makes a bone-chilling and therefore fun horror story but has no real moral importance for us today.

    As for the analogies to our modern wars, Vietnam, Iraq, modern bombing, etc,, the same logic applies. Our wars are a complicated moral business and we should be able to make both practical and moral criticisms of modern wars and war methods, without degenerating into moral sanctimony, moral indignation, moral outrage, and all the other nasty moral emotions.

  153. Nancy says:
    @obwandiyag

    The implication seems to be that all natives were, when only SOME of them were such farmers.

  154. @thotmonger

    Regarding the 2nd part of your comment, you may already have read some, but Steve Sailer on this site mentions what you bring up quite often. I really can’t take the time to dig up the posts right now, among the many 10’s of thousands he’s got (sometimes the mention of the Indians and immigration may not be in the title anyway). No, they are not at all pro-immigration-invasion.

  155. lloyd says: • Website
    @Kratoklastes

    I tried to give a fulsome reply but keep getting thrown off Unz Review. So I will make one statement. In my New Zealand town, my fellow Maori guests would come into the guest room and without so much as a by your leave would change the channel always to crap. No white person ever did that. When a person complained with a comment, “You Maoris think you run the place,” he was assaulted next day twice. Sort of sums up New Zealand race relations and history.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  156. The guy in the picture above, is a Hollywood Indian, not an American Indian. lol

  157. @Dissenter22

    Your post is fine except that it’s not really revealing of anything new about human nature. Violence is an operating principle on this earth. We cover it with a thin veneer of so called civilization.

    • Replies: @Dissenter22
  158. @Gordon K. Shumway

    LOL regarding the Speedy Gonzales story!

    Not to pull a Steve Sailer on you, but “Speedy Gonzales is friend of my sister.”

    • Replies: @Gordon K. Shumway
  159. Anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Avianthro

    Now, consider the behavior of the US in its warfare, just a few examples: Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the totally unnecessary (See Gar Alperovitz) vaporization of 100’s of thousands. The firebomb raid on Dresden. Drone killings of wedding parties. That of course is only the beginning of literally millions of civilians killed every bit as viciously as any Indian tribe ever did.

    Still today, we have enough nuclear firepower ready to “defend our way of life” and probably to even wipe out all life on earth by nuclear fallout and nuclear winter.

    Right. Consider it, and consider that somebody just stole a Presidential election, probably right before a hyperinflation. Bad idea. Consider that the American way of war may very well recur in 2022.

    [MORE]

    Oh, Sinnerman, where you gonna run to?
    Sinnerman, where you gonna run to?
    Where you gonna run to?
    All on that day

    Well I run to the rock, please hide me
    I run to the Rock, please hide me
    I run to the Rock, please hide me, Lord
    All on that day

    But the rock cried out, I can’t hide you
    The Rock cried out, I can’t hide you
    The Rock cried out, I ain’t gonna hide you guy
    All on that day
    https://genius.com/Nina-simone-sinnerman-lyrics

    You talk and talk, yet never listen to yourself.

    • Replies: @Walter
  160. Walter says:

    Nothing special about cruel murder https://thebulletin.org/2020/12/do-tactical-nukes-break-international-law/

    Evidently they fellas down at the war-shop plan to use a few, and are preparing the public to accept their excuse – “it’s not illegal…”

  161. Avery says:
    @Alfred

    Quite true.

    Upon return to civilization, Stefansson and another Arctic explorer began an experiment: doctors of the day did not believe that Stefansson had lived on meat alone while with the Inuit. They were sure he was…ummmm…not telling the whole story.

    So Stefansson ….. [So in 1928, Stefansson and another explorer began their culinary experiment. Checking into New York’s Bellevue Hospital, the two spent several weeks under constant supervision as doctors did blood tests and observed for signs of dietary distress. After a brief control period of a varied diet, the two men ate only fresh meat: The cuts included steak, roast beef, brains, and tongue, with calf liver once a week to ward off scurvy]

    [Doctors examining the two men during the year-long trial reported that neither had heightened blood pressure or kidney trouble, the expected result of a carnivorous diet. The one thing lacking in their diet, Stefansson noted, was enough calcium.]

    One thing important to note for carnivorous diet for these days: most of the factory produced beef is of questionable quality, owing to being fed corn, pumped full anti-biotics, etc.

    Inuit (and Stefansson) ate wild animals in the Arctic: uncontaminated by modern environments. Also, Inuit and similar ate the whole animal – “nose to tail” – unlike today, when people eat just steaks (muscle meat), for example.

    • Replies: @Wielgus
  162. Mike Tre says:
    @Sparkon

    Meat only diets do not lead to scurvy. You’ve been duped by the sugar industry lobby.

    https://zerocarbzen.com/vitamin-c/

    • Agree: Kratoklastes
    • Replies: @Sparkon
  163. lloyd says: • Website
    @Bookish1

    I mean when the Feds send in the cavalry.

  164. Ace says:
    @Tom Welsh

    During the march to this place [during the Black Hawk War] the scouts had captured an old blind Indian of the hostile, band, nearly famished with hunger, who had been left behind by his friends (for want of ability to travel), to fall into the hands of his enemies or to perish by famine. Being, as he said, old, blind and helpless, he was never consulted or advised with by the Indians, and could give no account of the movements of his party except that they had gone further up the river. One historian of the war says that the army magnanimously concluded not to kill him, but to give him plenty to eat, and leave him behind to end his life in a pleasant way by eating himself to death. The old man, however, was denied this melancholy satisfaction; for falling in the way of Posey’s men as they were marching to the camp, he was quickly despatched, even before he had satisfied his natural hunger. This barbarous action is an indelible stain upon the men of that brigade.

    Records of the Olden Time; or, Fifty Years on the Prairies, Embracing Sketches of the Discovery, Exploration and Settlement of the Country, the Organization of the Counties of Putnam and Marshall, Incidents and Reminiscences Connected Therewith, Biographies of Citizens, Portraits and Illustrations. By Spencer. Ellsworth. Lacon, Ill, Home Journal Steam Printing Establishment (1880), pp. 139-40.

    The following sketch relating to this event is taken from General Scott’s autobiography, a book published many years ago : “While inspecting the hospital at Fort Crawford, I was struck with the remarkably fine head of a tall volunteer lying on his side and seeking relief in a book. To my question, ‘What have you here, my friend?’ the wounded man pointed to ‘the title page of ‘Young’s Night Thoughts.’ I sat down on the edge of the bunk, already interested in the reader, to learn more of his history.

    “The wounded volunteer said his brother, Rev. Adam Payne, fell an early victim to Black Hawk’s band, and he (not in the spirit of revenge, but to protect the frontier settlements) volunteered as a private soldier. While riding into the battle-field of Bad Axe he passed a small Indian boy, whom he might have killed, but thought him a harmless child. ‘After passing, the boy fired, lodging two balls near my spine, when I fell from my horse.’ The noble volunteer, although suffering great pain from his wound, said he preferred his condition to the remorse he should have felt if he had killed the boy, believing him to be harmless.”

    Payne lived many years at his home on Clear Creek, greatly respected by all. He was an earnest preacher of the Gospel, and equally noted as a bee hunter.

    Afterward he emigrated to Oregon, where he still lives, a hale and hearty old man. He has filled several public offices, and served one term in the State Legislature.

    Records of the Olden Time, p. 229.

  165. (For Washington’s team, the Federal Folders has been suggested.)

    I’m partial to The Washington Wankers, myself.

    • LOL: Achmed E. Newman
  166. Nancy says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    Gotta link to that enlightening information?

  167. @St-Germain

    … except that Ancient Society was unspeakable, hideous drivel and the conclusions Marx drew from it were worse (in his letters he at least admitted to using it only to prop up preconceived notions).

  168. Anonymous[454] • Disclaimer says:
    @UltimateOrdnance

    You saw the image because that’s what you wanted to see I mean after all we wouldn’t do a thing like that would we, be like killing everyone in a village in Nam because its what we wanted to do, the question you should as is just how far from being a savage are we the answer might amaze you.

    • Replies: @Getaclue
  169. Truth says:
    @thotmonger

    Imagine the days when riding full bore balls out on your God Dog you took down a thousand pound bull American bison with your hand made bow and arrows. Fellow braves gather around as you cut out the steaming raw liver. Squeezing on bile from the beast’s gall bladder, you plunge your strong teeth into the tender flesh before happily sharing this Great Prize. Ah! That is vitality. and well earned!!

    WWWWWRRRRONG!

    Conan!…

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  170. @Hans Vogel

    Can’t handle the truth, eh?

    Read up on Indian agriculture. You know nothing about it and then you arbitrarily bring up agriculture in Spain.

    Yeah, agriculture is so good in Spain that a formerly forested peninsula is now a desert.

    But that’s off-topic. You don’t even know what forest agriculture is. It is so sophisticated compared to dullard peasants plowing away, comparison is a waste of time.

    • LOL: Genrick Yagoda
    • Replies: @The Soft Parade
  171. Ace says:
    @çakan

    You are an inspiration.

  172. @Anonymous

    “…the invaders of their ancestral lands in time honored fashion.”

    Human history is about ‘invaders’. Sioux took the land from the previous immigrants…and so on…and so on.

    Navajo from from the Apache.

    Commanche from the Apache.

    No such critter as ‘ancestral.’

    Even the elk, and buffalo were ‘immigrants’.

  173. @Truth

    Your question seems to imply that the accuracy, or otherwise, of his observation depends on the answer to your question, Why is that?

    • Replies: @Truth
  174. @Jimmy le Blanc

    Typical slanting.

    The movie also demonstrates how they had to torture–or their enemies would think they were weak.

    And secondly, it points out how the Huron converted to Christianity, acted as good Christians, turned the other cheek, and were wiped out.

  175. @Nancy

    Here’s a short news blurb on the book. There used to be more detailed summaries available but I couldn’t find them online. So I’ve also linked the book, in case you wished to purchase it or inquire at your local library.

    https://news.osu.edu/health-of-american-indians-on-decline-before-columbus-arrived-in-new-world/

    https://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca/books/the-backbone-of-history-health/9780521801676-item.html

    There were also other reports provided by some of the other scientists involved, but again, it seems the internet is scrubbed of these references.

    @obwandiyag

    QUOTE “You don’t even know what forest agriculture is. It is so sophisticated compared to dullard peasants plowing away, comparison is a waste of time. END QUOTE

    HardeHar! Siberians digging beetles out of the roots of tree stumps is “sophisticated”, according to our resident We Wuz Kangs clown.

  176. meamjojo says:
    @The Alarmist

    I didn’t mean to imply that the Indians were moon children living in peace. Savagery is something that is part and parcel with humanity. The strong prey on the weak. If cannibalism wasn’t culturally and legally outlawed, the strong would probably still be eating the weak.

  177. Stick says:

    All men are wolves. The strong take what they can. The weak bear what they must. Nothing new here except a shaky film of imagined virtue.

  178. Walter says:
    @Anonymous

    Consider that FDR died so Truman, who had been inserted by Pawley at the ’44 convention and nobody wanted, could try to intimidate Stalin with the bomb (That’s what Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly about – and they were designated tests 2 and 3.

    Stalin said

    FDR died by poison

    Hitler escaped

    And see that the nazis just stole the US election…

    Of course they’re not dressed up in that campy leather, well, not in public…

  179. Ace says:
    @St-Germain

    ** Everything runs smoothly without, etc., etc., etc. **

    Pardon me if I think that Friedrich was peddling some serious flapdoodle there that sounds suspiciously like to each according to his needs, etc., etc. Jimmy Dore, an enlightened “progressive” gent will swoon about “Medicare for all” on cue. It’s withheld from saintly commoners because of greed and obtuseness. The stuff of dreams.

  180. @Genrick Yagoda

    No context no context no contest.

    So Mark Twain was an expert. I think not.

    The Susquehannocks were giants compared to John Smith’s men.

    You people all think the Plains tribes represent all Indians. Because all you know is cowboy movies. When Plains tribes are a tiny minority.

    And, as for “diseased” squaws: if they were “diseased”, they were “diseased” with European diseases. God are you people stupid.

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
    , @Ace
  181. TKK says:

    Many of the predatory debt consolidation loans are ran by Native American tribes. Along with their casinos, they are making huge profits.

    Sinew Management Group, LLC, a tribally-owned company of the MHA Nation tribe, has retained a big time lawyer at intellectual property law firm of Cowan, Liebowitz and Latman in an attempt to intimidate Crixeo from exposing the truth about this predatory scam that preys on consumers.

    You can read more about here.

    https://crixeo.com/debt-consolidation/georgetown-funding-review/

    Their nature has not changed.

  182. @semeonx

    As you mention, “you can’t trust pakeha” is more about the requirement for almost-hostile cynicism when interacting with the systems and institutions run by Peak Grifters – politicians, priests and so forth – who purport to ‘represent’ pakeha interests.

    And of course Maori are not universally trustworthy: however there are traditional notions like utu and mana, which used to furnish ample discipline both within hapu and between iwi.

    Every iwi recognised the right to (attempt) redress/vengeance – a right extended to any person who felt that his whanau had been slighted or his (or his whanau‘s) mana had been impugned.

    Utu traditionally includes the right to challenge the perpetrator to individual combat – which admittedly is of limited use if the victim is a kid and the perp is a chief (that said, the kid would usually face no consequence if he killed the chief in an ambush, or while the chief was asleep).

    There is no statute of limitations on utu (‘justice’; operationally, ‘rightful vengeance’).

    There are long-standing ‘beefs’ between iwi that pre-date the arrival of pakeha, and everybody involved recognises them (an utu-based issue between Ti Ate Awa and Ngaphui is why the former were less-than-fulsome in their congratulations when the Wai 1040 decision agreed with the Ngapuhi claim that they did not concede sovereignty).

    If you want to understand why this won’t be over until the ‘Crown’ concedes, spend half a day coming to grips with the depth of the influence of utu in Maori culture.

    That said: there is no valid beef between any Maori iwi and the white race; the beef is with white institutional dishonesty from the mid-1830s onwards, and its ramifications (specifically, the seizure of millions of acres of the best land, as punishment for ‘insurrection’ after Maori got fed up with being Jewed).

    Prior to the English government deciding to ‘Jew’ them, Maori traded with whites and permitted whites to have permanent settlements.

    This was well before ‘organised’ white colonisation (which began in about 1843).

    Prior to the first ‘colonial’ settlement, there were whaling and sealing stations that had whalers and sealers from half the planet – one such station (at Rangaika in Hawkes’ Bay) was owned by a white (Morris), and had the protection of the local tribe (Ngati Kurukuru) because Morris had the personal patronage of the chief (Taikitai). Morris had a Maori wife (Puihi Te Umutapu) and his brother-in-law (Nepia Tokotahi) was a man of rank; all Morris’ kids had Maori second names.

    That’s some 19th century #Diversity, cuzzie. Local Maori understood the benefits of the whaling industry; individual Maori who worked for whalers, went to Sydney and got to evaluate white colonisation well before the 1840s, and didn’t particularly think it boded well for their side. (That’s why the United Chiefs was formed, and why they formally declared independence in 1835 and notified the English court- that meant that the English could not rely on ‘terra nullius’ to claim NZ)

    Of course Maori also enslaved, killed, and even ate whites during that period, too.

    It depended on the tribe’s position on white encroachment, because shorelines were administered at a tribal level. Some tribes’ “border protection” policy amounted to “Nup. Fuck this. Kill ’em before they get to shore“.

    In instances with a more nuanced “immigration policy”, survival depended on the behaviour of the immigrants: the Wairau Affray (1843) happened because immigrant pakeha claimed to have bought very large swathes of land from people who had no right to sell it.

    The rightful owners objected in the time-honoured fashion… by massacring the immigrants.

  183. @Truth

    You wisely neglect to mention this is ascribed to Genghis Khan,
    and in the original ends :
    “… and to sleep on the white bellies of their wives and daughters.” 😀

    • Replies: @Truth
  184. it’s all “bullshit”.
    remember, he who wins the war gets the spoils.
    You need NOT dig any further then the Good OLD Bible to see that.
    matter of fact, God told the JEWS to Kill all of Ishmaels descendents (Deut 7:2-6 or thereabouts) and the did NOT obey. So where are they all today??
    Wars are NOT nice.
    I can tell you from personal experience that even when you are “winning” it is NO fun. I was with an armored cav unit and I have A Purple Heart with 2nd OLC. I’ve paid my whole life!!
    I have NO guilt feelings and I only killed those “who needed killing”.
    Every soldier is that way, be they Indian, American, whatever.
    As for the football teams names and schitt, the bunch of sorry candy asses in the press can go to hell !!
    Same goes for 90+ percent of the congress azzholes!

  185. utu says:
    @John Wester

    A Place Under Heaven: Amerindian Torture and Cultural Violence in Colonial New France, 1609-1729
    https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1174&context

    American Indians were impressed with French Jesuits’ conduct under torture so much that they ate them:

    A Huron Indian who escaped Iroquois captivity described how a Jesuit was killed and eaten. The priest had endured great pain before his death, and the Iroquois told the Huron that they drank his blood and ate his flesh so that they could be as strong as the priest had been

    While some embraced the Christian message of mercy towards their captives, others resented the cultural intrusion and even overcompensated for it when the time came to burn captives. Among the Hurons, Algonquians, and particularly among the Iroquois, we can observe how Christianity did more to divide communities than unite them, and this divide manifested most acutely with the torture of captives.

    Juha Hiltunen “Spiritual and religious aspects of torture and scalping among the Indian cultures in Eastern North America, from ancient to colonial times”

    The most dramatic data comes from osteological examinations of burial grounds and massacre sites. One site in particular is a prime example. It is the Crow Creek archaeological ground in the Middle Missouri region, where the historical Mandan and Hidatsa tribes lived. It has been dated to around 1300 ad. What is astonishing here is a mass grave of about 500 men, women, and children, which almost all have been mutilated, tortured and scalped (Arkush & Allen 2006, Case 2010, Dye 2009: 131–2, Keeley 1996, LeBlanc 1999, Smith 1991). This prehistoric killing field stands as a horrible Pol Potian kind of landmark in Native American history

    In the eastern areas of North America it was quite common, especially among the matrilineal tribes, that the active torturers were women and children. This is a logical element in humiliating a male victim, whose masculinity is

    The victims were treated with certain respect, which may seem strange. This is manifested especially in the way in which the torturers spoke with them. According to this etiquette, the victims were metaphorically seen as beloved relatives, whose fate was to be a sacrified offer .

    • Thanks: ivan
    • Replies: @Yevardian
    , @thotmonger
  186. @JohnPlywood

    Joking aside, you may be onto something …

    in Africa the British were universally regarded as the better administrators (after the Germans, maybe) but the French were more popular because they took to Rassenschande like a duck to to water (“going native”; shocking) while the British patiently waited for supply from the mudderland.
    – It is safe to assume the ladies willing to follow useless afterborns to the colonies were not the Claudia Schiffers of their time, and indigenes the world over did regard the sight of them as an insult.

    Similar mechanisms were at work re: Mountain Men vs. Puritans.

  187. @Ace

    Guess I don’t understand about your contemporary reference.
    Contemporary: adj-Belonging to the same period of time.
    adj. Of about the same age.
    adj. Current; modern.

    The Yankee hoards were turned loose on the American Indians only after they had decimated the entire South and their culture.
    Once the “War of Northern Aggression” was complete and the South lay in ruins, the tactics and skills learned by invading Union armies were turned west and directed towards clearing the west of the savages(and yes, Fred is right, they were savages).

    “Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching As To War”…..

    • Replies: @dindunuffins
    , @Ace
  188. Yevardian says:
    @utu

    Gregory Cochrane supposed that due to a relative lack of serious old-world diseases, population pressure in the new-world was much more controlled by warfare and intercommunal violence. Unsurprisingly, I’d never heard of it before, and it could be total nonsense, but it’s a very interesting theory that deserves investigation.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
    , @John Johnson
  189. @lloyd

    When a person complained with a comment, “You Maoris think you run the place,” he was assaulted next day twice.

    Not surprising in the least: the comment was that of a racist asshole, not of a person objecting to the channel being changed. I am certainly not defending someone who changes the channel on a TV that someone else is watching, without asking: I have extreme views about behaviour in common areas).

    If the person had said “Bro, turn it back. I was watching that.” he might’ve found things went differently.

    At the very least he would have discovered whether the ‘assault’ was just for objecting to these people’s bad manners, or for coming right out of the gate as a racist asshole.

    Most people are stupid and walk around with white noise going on in their heads, and that leads to constant acts of shitheaded behaviour… but they’re not actively trying to be rude and will often apologise if confronted sensibly.

    The very worst reading is that the fellow guests are the sort of people who change the channel without asking, and assault anyone who calls them on it (racist asshole or not).

    That only shows that there are badly-raised Maori, who actively ‘throw their weight around’ and rely on menace to get away with it.

    That’s also not surprising in the least; there are badly-raised people literally everywhere – in large part because these days a male child reaches the age of 25 having been completely protected against righteous retributive violence.

    For a reasonably large slice of any population (roughly the bottom third), the credible threat of violence is literally the only predictably-useful resolution mechanism.

    For young males (of all races) I would go further: regardless of their position in the cognitive/socioeconomic hierarchy, young males are prone to bouts of shitheaded ignorance, and are properly incentivised by the credible threat of low-level violence. It’s why schools used to cane or strap boys. (I was a young male once: if I had known through my youth that I never needed to worry about getting ‘the cuts’ – or a corrective smack on the arse from an adult – I shudder to think how much shitheadedness I would have exhibited).

    However over the last 30 years the ‘Woke’ paradigm has said that it is no longer permissible for an ignorant shithead to be slapped upside the head by his behavioural superiors.

    What I’m saying is that they acted like inconsiderate assholes who need an ‘accubeating’ because they’re assholes, not because they’re Maori.

    FWIW: my own favourite anecdote – which happens well above the bottom third – is people walking 4 abreast on a footpath (looking at their own reflections in every window): I would love to beat some sense into them, but social norms prohibit it…

    TL;DR: spare the rod, spoil the child. But – as Plutarch wrote – it is better that the child understands that corporal punishment happens as a result of an otherwise-lenient father losing his temper at the child’s transgression, as opposed to an expression of an implacably stern character:

    “For it is better that a father’s anger be hasty than severe; because the heaviness of his wrath, joined with implacableness, is no small argument of hatred towards the child.” – Plutarch, The Training of Children

  190. Americans should ask themselves why none of the atrocities Fred describes occurred in Canada when its government & people ‘settled the West’.

    You could count on one hand the rare instances of violence by both sides. Some dispossession did occur, and the appalling Residential Schools, but nothing like what happened in the US ‘West’.

    • Replies: @ruralguy
    , @bitter_ironing
  191. “after murderous, torturing stone-age savages? Which the Indians were.” So were and still are blacks….no different. The only difference is the black man decided to appropriate and steal the knowledge of the White man.

  192. @Yevardian

    In that case prevalence of “warrior gene” (functional MAOA receptor polymorphism) should be diagnostic – but the only ones to stick out are Bantu and Maori.

  193. @Johnny Walker Read

    Yes the Southern people and the Indians respected each other more than the Yankee. Look to The Outlaw Josey Wales…not as historical fact But the scenes when Josey talks to the Indian chief pretty much sums it up. Remember,Josey Wales was a Southern boy.

  194. The Fightin’ Whiteys…..The Cleveland Caucasians….. The Chicago WhiteBreads….I am more than happy to put every White caricature they want. We are the ones that won and built the country anyway. So F’em all.

    • Replies: @anonsasmaug
  195. @obwandiyag

    The context is provided in the article that was linked. No one here can help it if you are incapable of reading.

    And, as for “diseased” squaws: if they were “diseased”, they were “diseased” with European diseases. God are you people stupid.

    I’m not quite certain how you think you can get away with calling other people “stupid” when I provided a link to the most detailed examination of Siberian bones prior to their contact with Europeans. A study that shows that pre-contact Siberians lived lives marked by disease, pestilence, famine, war, and general misery.

    And you call other people “stupid”? You are easily the dumbest poster on Unz. Not even Corvinus comes close.

    @Flimpkin-4 says:

    Every single massacre that occurred in Canada between Siberians and whites was caused by Siberians massacring whites. All of them. 100%.

    Even as recent as the late 1800’s Siberians were massacring whites, and Chicolton and Frog Lake.

    • LOL: Ace
    • Replies: @lloyd
    , @Mike Tre
    , @obwandiyag
  196. lloyd says: • Website

    But it was true. A group of aggressive Maori were intimidating the hotel as customarily happens in cheap New Zealand hotels. So all the races including Maori get out by flight if they can do it. We tried the solution you advocated. They just ignored it. I bought my own TV.

  197. It is in the USA soil. These traits are in the diet. Clear and simple. A land of war and massacre from the begniiing and the settlers made it worse over time.

  198. @Nancy

    Gotta link to that enlightening information?

    Broads are so lazy. YOU go find the link and contradict him. It’s always women with the “gotta link?” crap. Argue like a grown man or get lost, you clog it up with that shit.

  199. Getaclue says:
    @Anonymous

    Nearly all the Tribes have an Oral Tradition that when they came here (thru Alaska….) there was an advanced Civilization here — the Mound Builders (and others–some of which are stated to have been “white”) — these would be the true “Native Americans”. So– where are they now?

    Are they receiving big money from Casinos and are they the subject of “Dances With Wolves” type propaganda? No. The Oral Traditions record, with no guilt at all, that the incoming Indians mass murdered ALL of them — complete genocide. They don’t feel bad about it in the least. Yet we get drivel such as from you in this comment — if the “evil YT” was as the Indians were — there would be no Indians today and — look around — there are a great many — and I can vouch from Florida that all the Casino Tribes are quite happy and prosperous — those afflicted elsewhere with alcoholism problems not so much but YTs so afflicted aren’t real happy either — I do wish people would stop repeating the “woke” propaganda as to Indians — it is utter and total bs.

  200. @Sparkon

    Question on Indians who feasted on buffalo, Sparks? Achmed has probably read enough to have found a tidbit on this too, maybe. So, if the Comanche were caught out on the high plains away from the buffalo and they’re facing thin pickins, so to speak, since they had huge collections of horses, did they then go ahead and eat horse meat rather than each other or starve? I haven’t seen that point made in this. I’m not ABOUT to get into benefits of less meat, or more veggies. I love my prime rib and steaks too much. And rare. Very, very rare.

  201. Getaclue says:
    @Anonymous

    The Communists who were allowed to take over Viet Nam and Cambodia did many times worse, industrial level mass murder which is of course their calling card — thanks to Walter Cronkite, and all the infiltrated in Communists in the USA Sen. McCarthy actually warned us about, now the USA is infiltrated, rotted from within and destroyed by the same finally, enjoy….

    • Agree: Ace, Lost American
    • Replies: @1RW
  202. Sparkon says:
    @Mike Tre

    If I’ve been duped, and I doubt it, it certainly wasn’t by the sugar industry, but rather by every health educator, health professional, dietician, and nutritionist with whom I’ve had contact over the course of my life, and they all without exception have recommended a balanced diet.

    As a general rule of thumb, native peoples take advantage of every food resource they can exploit. If they don’t have it, they will trade for it. The nomadic Indians traded buffalo hides and meat for agricultural products from the more sedentary tribes of the Great Plains.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    , @Avery
  203. Any doubts about the depravity of man being a fact are wiped away by the accounts mentioned in this article. The notion that man is inherently good also suffers a fatal blow. Let us not forget the war crimes of lying Lincoln and Sherman who waged a war against civilians which included pillaging, rape, and murder.

  204. lloyd says: • Website
    @Genrick Yagoda

    That sort of explains why the American Indians sided with the British in the American revolution war. They liked British justice. Same with the other British colonies. There simply is no record of British troops or colonial militias attacking natives without an initial native provocation. South Africa might be the exception. They had to put up with the pesky Africaners and Zulus.

    • Agree: utu
  205. Yet, Mr. Reed, I guarantee you, is the kind of guy that puts down savage behavior when whites exhibit it in their own interests, even if it’s when they want to protect themselves. Then, it’s not noble but an attack on “immigrants”, the underprivileged and just plain savage. Heard it all before.

  206. @but an humble craftsman

    ‘Kerry did not lie.’

    Right. You’ve never heard of the My Lai massacre?

    And there’s almost a mathematical certainty that, over the 10,000 days of America’s war against Vietnam, there were many, smaller civilian executions.

  207. Mike Tre says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    You’re wasting your time with this silly negro. Put him on ignore and be done with it.

    • Thanks: Genrick Yagoda
  208. ruralguy says:
    @Flimpkin-4

    It did occur in Canada. About 1/2 of the Iroquois six-nation confederacy lived in Canada. The Iroquois were among the most brutal of all Indians. The Ojibwe fought this confederacy. They were one of the largest first nation Indians and based mostly in Canada. To overcome the confederacy, they allied with the French, trading with them. In return, they got guns that they used against the Iroquois confederacy. They brought the brutal Iroquois methods with them to Minnesota, when they migrated as the fur trade moved west. They massacred the Sioux, using guns but also their perverse ceremonial torture that they learned from the Iroquois confederacy. The Sioux reciprocated. So, much of this brutality originated in Canada.

    • Replies: @Flimpkin-4
  209. Mike Tre says:
    @Sparkon

    It’s the sugar lobby that bought the USDA that subsequently concocted the ridiculous “food pyramid” that has led to the explosion of diet related health issues such as type II diabetes, obesity, and heart disease. It is the sugar lobby that told us animal meat/fats were bad and led to obesity, HBP, etc., when in fact it is carbohydrates that create every single health problem we currently face regarding nutrition. The human body is perfectly suited to not only survive, but to thrive on ketone bodies. (Doctors prescribe ketosis to epileptics because it basically eliminates their seizures.)

    All those “balanced diet” (WTF is a “balanced diet”, anyway) people that have guided you were duped as well, so you’re still duped, just by a degree of separation.

    Sugar and starch is what rots the teeth and causes gum disease, not animal products. English are notorious for terrible teeth and that is due to their long subsistence on grains. Australian aborigines’ diet consisted of what they could hunt, and were found to have perfectly healthy and straight teeth. That is, until they were introduced to sugar and starch.

    Look up ketosis, sugar industry lobby, and food pyramid lie.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  210. Avery says:
    @Sparkon

    {…but rather by every health educator, health professional, dietician, and nutritionist with whom I’ve had contact over the course of my life, and they all without exception have recommended a balanced diet.}

    About 40-50 years ago or so, ‘……every health educator, health professional, dietician, and nutritionist…..’ recommended that people don’t eat butter, but instead eat margarine. Today margarine is recognized as being very harmful, because is contained trans fats.

    Trans fats are so harmful that [the U.S. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) ruled in 2015 that artificial trans fats were unsafe to eat and gave food-makers three years to eliminate them from the food supply, with a deadline of June 18, 2018.]

    UNSAFE to eat: yet the same list of experts were recommending it to Americans not too long ago. (instead of the traditional, healthy grass-fed butter).

    And the rates of obesity, diabetes, cardio vascular disease, etc, etc have been going up, up, and up, even though Americans have been dutifully following the USDA recommendations of a so-called ‘balanced diet’. You know, low-fat everything, lots of “whole grains”, lots of fruits, ……..

    • Replies: @turtle
    , @Rosie
  211. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alfred

    FWIO, the Siberians and many other peoples seem to have survived in Russia and its USSR predecessor more or less intact. The Russians traded with these people and did not exterminate them or kill off their animals and means of survival. Clearly, the Orthodox peoples have a different perspective on the world.

    Exactly. One can see the stark contrast in Alaska. While Russians owned it, they were quite friendly to the natives and, in fact, quite successful in converting them to Christianity. But the moment Anglos got to power, the policies toward natives stopped only short of genocidal.

    • Replies: @utu
  212. @Yevardian

    Gregory Cochrane supposed that due to a relative lack of serious old-world diseases, population pressure in the new-world was much more controlled by warfare and intercommunal violence. Unsurprisingly, I’d never heard of it before, and it could be total nonsense, but it’s a very interesting theory that deserves investigation.

    I actually doubt warfare was much of a factor. It definitely occurred but most of the tribes were geographically isolated from each other. Horses didn’t exist until the Spanish arrived.

    There is an underestimation of how much natives died of exposure and treatable diseases/injuries. People die from hypothermia a lot faster than assumed. All it takes is to get wet during the winter when you don’t have a fire available.

    It is also not talked about as to how many of the tribes were half-starving most of the time.

    Part of the noble savage myth is that they were in touch with the land and always had food. The journals of explorers suggest otherwise. When Lewis and Clark went West they had natives following them for the food scraps. The natives were amazed by how well they could take down game animals with guns.

    The idea of the noble native going into the woods and returning with a deer every time is modern egalitarian folklore.

    For a very un-PC look at the noble savage try the inuit. If a man that refused to hunt and instead would stay home with the women (for action) they had a solution where the elders would take him for a walk and then push him into the water. Then they would tell the rest of the tribe that he left.

    • Agree: Genrick Yagoda
  213. turtle says:
    @Avery

    very harmful, because is contained trans fats.

    “Trans” anything is likely to be harmful.
    JMO.

  214. Lee says:
    @obwandiyag

    OB said:

    The Indians learned scalping from white men.

    American Heritage magazine would disagree with you.

    https://www.americanheritage.com/who-invented-scalping

    Nor does the second proposition fare much better. For there is abundant evidence from various sources that the Indians practiced scalping long before the white man arrived and that they continued to do so without the incentive of colonial cash.

    The first and most familiar source of evidence is the written descriptions of the earliest European observers, who presumably saw the Indian cultures of the eastern seaboard in something like an aboriginal condition. When Jacques Cartier sailed down the St. Lawrence to what is now Quebec City in 1535, he met the Stadaconans, who showed him “the scalps of five Indians, stretched on hoops like parchment.” His host, Donnacona, told him they were from “Toudamans from the south, who waged war continually against his people.”

  215. American indians were the evilest people in history. They tortured to death countless thousands of whites. Geronimo would hang a white man upside down and then for days maintain a small fire under his head till it burned through his skull.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  216. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    How natives fared in the confrontation with Europeans depends on several factors. You can find some clues by comparing:

    Catholics vs. Russian Orthodox vs. Protestants (instructions how to deal with the natives readily available from the Old Testament)

    Spanish vs. French vs. Portugese vs. Brits vs. Russians

    Low Class Settlers (Australia) vs. Upper Class Settlers (New Zealand)

    Weak Central Authority/Free Market Land Grabbing (US) vs. Crown Central Authority (Canada, New Zealand)

    Alaska (under Russia and orthodox religion) vs. Alaska (under the US and dollar religion)

    Shortage of white women settlers (Siberia, S. America) vs. Presence of white women settlers (Anglo-Sphere)

    Native populations fared the best under Russians and Catholics. Better when there was a strong central authority. Better when the settlers/invaders were from upper crusts of society. Better when settlers/invaders did not bring women. Overall because of these factors the natives suffered the most brutal and devastating treatment in Protestant America.

    Protestantism (Judaism as well), weak central authority, low class and presence of women makes a perfect genocidal brew.

    • Agree: RedpilledAF
    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Commentator Mike
    , @sb
  217. Ace says:
    @Ray Caruso

    C. 1528. Slavery, continual war, murder, infanticide, torture, superstition, sadism.

    Too bad we interrupted their idyllic existence:

    And when he [Figueroa] finished speaking, he and the Asturian had wanted to go to other Indians that were farther on, but as the Indians that had him suspected it, they came out after them and gave them many blows with sticks and stripped the Asturian and passed an arrow through his arm. In the end, finally, they escaped fleeing and the Christians [Dorantes and his companions] remained with those Indians and made an agreement to be taken slaves

    Although serving them, they [the Spaniards, Ace] were treated as badly by them as slaves or men of any sort ever were, for out of six that they were, not content with giving them many blows with the hand and beating them with sticks and plucking their beards out for amusement, merely for moving from one house to another, they killed three of them, who are these that I spoke of above: Diego Dorantes, and Valdeviesso and Diego de Huelva. And the other three that were left were expecting to end up the same way.

    In order not to suffer this life Andrės Dorantes fled and passed to the Mariames, who were those with whom Esquivel had stayed. They told him how they had had Esquivel there and while he was there he chose to flee because a woman had dreamed that he was to kill her son. And the Indians went after him and killed him and [they] showed Andrės Dorantes his [Esquivel’s] sword and his beads and book and other things that he had.

    This they do in accordance with the custom that they have, which is that they kill their own children for the sake of dreams, and their daughters as soon as they are born they give to dogs to be eaten and they throw them away. The reason why they do it is, according to what they say, because all those of the land are their enemies and with them they have continual war, and if by chance they should marry their daughters their enemies would multiply so that they would subject them and take them for slaves.

    We Came Naked and Barefoot. The Journey of Cabeza de Vaca Across North America. By Alex D. Krieger, University of Texas Press (2002), page 193.

  218. People are scum. Life is war. This truth shouldn’t come as a surprise to any honest man who is capable of observing what is going on around him, or even in his own heart. The difference is that the “civilized” white man deludes himself with talk of love and altruistic motives. When he tortures and kills you, he’s careful to make sure he can say it’s for your own good, or the good of “society”. While the savage takes real pleasure in inflicting barbarities, the high degree of order involved in technological civilization necessarily robs the white man of these pleasures. For the sake of this civilization, he becomes a hypocrite. “God is love” he’ll inform you, even as he destroys you. He’ll get pleasure out of it too, but to a far lesser degree than the savage does, because he can never admit enjoying it, even to himself. Why, taking pleasure in inflicting pain and killing would mean he’s crazy, a “psychopath”! We can’t have that, can we?

    What’s surprising here is that this litany of crimes comes from a skeptic of Darwinism such as Fred Reed. Could there be a greater proof of man’s animal nature than this list of crimes? A greater proof that man is fundamentally nothing special, an animal like any other? And also let us recall that Fred is living in Meh-hee-co, which is full of American aborigines, so he can experience them first hand. Judging from press reports, and photos and videos I’ve seen, people being hacked to death with machetes is a fairly common occurrence there.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  219. Ace says:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    I took the comment to refer to contemporary Europeans, that is our contemporaries who fail to react to “the invaders of their ancestral lands.”

    I don’t read the comment as denigrating Southerners of long ago who very clearly did react vigorously to the North’s invasion.

    • Replies: @Johnny Walker Read
  220. @ruralguy

    I was really thinking of how the settling of Canada’s ‘west’ unfolded — i.e. of the prairie provinces.

    But that’s interesting information. Ironic that savagery in our country (of all places) spread to the U.S.

  221. Ace says:
    @obwandiyag

    Twain stated in that (or another essay) that he wrote about The Red Man based on personal observation.

    • Agree: Genrick Yagoda
  222. Sparkon says:
    @Mike Tre

    the ridiculous “food pyramid” that has led to the explosion of diet related health issues such as type II diabetes, obesity, and heart disease.

    The food pyramid was not introduced in the United States until 1994, while heart disease has been around awhile, but the obesity epidemic in the United States began already by about 1980 after the introduction of high-fructose corn syrup early in the ’70s. Coke began using HFCS in 1980, and Aspartame was approved by the FDA in 1984 with a lot of help from Donald Rumsfeld, which is a known known, and a very naughty one.

    In the early 1960s, fewer than 14 percent of the individuals possessed a body mass index (BMI) of over 30. Today, the figure collected by the CDCs National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHNES) is closer to 40 percent.

    https://usafacts.org/articles/obesity-rate-nearly-triples-united-states-over-last-50-years/

    So obesity in the USA went from less than 14% in 1960 to over 40% today.


    Meanwhile, the increase in Type II diabetes tracks well with the increase in the production of chemicals.

    http://www.diabetesandenvironment.org/home/incidence

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Nancy
  223. It is only fair to amplify what another poster alluded to earlier.

    North America is a big continent — and ‘American Indians’ refers to a lot of people.

    It’s no more reasonable to infer anything about Pima Indians from the behavior of Mohawks than it would be reasonable to draw conclusions about Persians from watching Irishmen.

    • Agree: St-Germain
  224. @gotmituns

    Classic horror film with nice environmental message.

  225. dvorak says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    What civilized nation would name teams after murderous, torturing stone-age savages?

    Vikings and Raiders should be replaced with more civilized Tillers, Oilers and Senators.

    https://hboilersports.com/

  226. Yes, we know. Palestinians are also terrorists. “Israelis” are wholesome peace loving dindu nuffins who honor all treaties and treat the Pals fair and square. Listen to the alt-right/white nationalist crowd long enough and you’ll soon learn that they use the “muh white race” shtick to sell a Neocon imperialist agenda.

    I find it ironic and very interesting how often the alt-right/white nationalist ideology/worldview intersects with the Zionist/Neocon imperialist one. Almost like they’re the same people.

    Everybody know Anglo-American honkey plutocrats never took part in no mass murder, biological warfare, genocide, ethnic cleansing, wars of aggression, imperialism, slaving, lying, stealing or breaking treaties! No pattern of doing all these things at all!

    Orders of George Washington to General John Sullivan, May 31, 1779
    “The immediate objectives are the total destruction and devastation of their settlements and the capture of as many prisoners of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops in the ground and prevent their planting more.”

    “[When we] lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi… in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.” — Thomas Jefferson, 3rd U.S. President.

    “Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority, [the Native tribes] must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.” — Andrew Jackson, 7th U.S. President

    https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/nice-day-for-a-genocide-shocking-quotes-on-indians-by-us-leaders-mggXatQDCUuNzQ_bfuyUPg

    https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/nice-day-for-a-genocide-shocking-quotes-on-indians-by-u-s-leaders-pt-2-itTXslul5EKc694gf4DLfA

    and now the white proles find themselves in the same situation, now they’re the “savages” seemingly being conquered. They scream about “muh white genocide” and in the same breath defend or deny their own past, while still supporting the ongoing crimes their capitalist overlords commit. All the blame for their overlords crimes now put on them and they’re happy to own it, even celebrate it! Always willing to be their own worst enemies to please their master! Hahahaha

    Its too bad, the white proles and the natives tried on many occasions to put aside their differences and live in peace, share the land and resources. But their capitalist overlords were always there to nudge them back into killing one another. The greedy capitalist was always there to manipulate both into doing their bidding so he could have it all.

    No different today. The fat cats keep the various races of proles fighting and at each others throats while they live like kings. Easy to do when they are so powerful now, control all the media, even the plutocrats from other countries get a bigger piece than the white proles. Haha. They still believe its “their” country! Haha

    Looking at the “Israeli” colonial project and the settlers there can give us a look at what our past was like, even as it is today in many ways. The motivations, methods and players are no different. How powerful the brainwashing and incitement to hate, revenge and violence can be. What happens when the proles cannot put aside their differences and throw the plutocrats out or overthrow the system. Yes, there may be rewards now for many of the settlers, the rewards always get smaller over time, and in the end it will lead to their destruction. Same in our case.

    Yall should love these:

    https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/09/15/nazis-considered-sioux-extension-native-americans-aryans-2/

    Injun George Lincoln Rockwell
    https://crosscut.com/2016/12/native-american-nazi-chief-red-cloud-elwood-tanner

  227. Rosie says:
    @Avery

    UNSAFE to eat: yet the same list of experts were recommending it to Americans not too long ago. (instead of the traditional, healthy grass-fed butter).

    Knowing how much I love butter, Sandy Claws brought me one of these this year. I love it! All butter lovers should have one.

    https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/tools-test-kitchen/article/french-butter-keeper-how-to-use

  228. @utu

    The Mandan were among George Catlin’s favorites. I am grateful they gave him safe passage and that he painted their way of life before being obliterated by disease and enemies. I have heard elsewhere the Mandan were “White Indians” perhaps even of Solutrian stock. That is a fun thought.

  229. Rosie says:
    @Sparkon

    Meanwhile, the increase in Type II diabetes tracks well with the increase in the production of chemicals.

    Two more suspects: air conditioning and the anti-smoking campaign.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-gravity-weight/201606/body-weight-in-the-time-climate-control

    https://www.npr.org/2011/06/09/137085989/the-skinny-on-smoking-why-nicotine-curbs-appetite

    I’m just old enough to remember life without air conditioning, and it was just too damned hot to eat for a couple of months out of the year. I suspect that was when we lost the five pounds we gained over winter. Now, we keep those five, and add five more the next year, and on and on.

    For years weight gain after smoking cessation was attributed to an “oral fixation” or whatever, but it turns out that nicotine is a highly effective appetite suppressant.

    In a sedentary society with climate control, people are going to be fat without chemical appetite control, I’m afraid.

  230. @obwandiyag

    But that’s off-topic. You don’t even know what forest agriculture is.

    Oh but mon cacahuète , we do know the forest and tree from which your light nut fell–in a flash of words–and with no meaning deeper than its light weight shell.

    • LOL: Lee
  231. joe2.5 says:

    Simple, Fred: the fury of the invaded and occupied peoples knows no limits. That’s been known for at least 3,000 years, so spare us your disgust before their “massacres”. That’s the only freakin way to get rid of a powerful enemy, if , that is, he doesn’t manage to complete his genocide first. Which he did.

    What did you think, that by playing nice the locals would have any chance to survive? Like the Palestinian are playing nice with Uncle Sam and the Zionists — what did they get? Same thing as the American Indians, with probably the same ending if the Zionists manage to perfect their genocide on time.

    Even the murderous colonial powers had to acknowledge the fact and carve it in stone in their UN charter, that occupied peoples have the imprescriptible right to resist to occupation by all means available. So no horror from me at the old news of Injuns trying to get a message across to the invaders.

  232. anon[389] • Disclaimer says:

    BONE TOMAHAWK Question

    Didn’t later arrivals from Asia wipe out earlier Paleo-Indians? In BONE TOMAHAWK the cave dwelling tribe are some earlier group that the Apache mostly wiped out.

    Didn’t Inuit fight with Native Americans when they arrived much later to North America.

    In general, didn’t more advanced Asian groups arrive & invade/conquer earlier Natives?

    Weren’t newer Asians coming over constantly for 10,000 years & invading, killing earlier less advanced Natives before Erikson got to North America?

  233. @Dr. Charles Fhandrich

    Dissenter: Thanks for your thoughtful response.

    DCF: “Violence is an operating principle on this earth.”

    Dissenter: Yes of course. Among territorial social animals (including humans), turf belongs to the pack that is strong enough to take it and hold it against competing packs. Wolves do it, Chimps do it, we all do it. Prior residence of a piece of turf has nothing to do with it.

    DCF: “We cover it (the operating principle on this earth) with a thin veneer of so called civilization.”

    Dissenter: Correct! And this article is a good example of exactly that.

    DFC: Your post is fine except that it’s not really revealing of anything new about human nature.

    Dissenter: Of course not! The point of the post was not to add to the human-nature knowlege data-base, but simply to point out that this article is a classic example of: “We cover it (the operating principle on this earth) with a thin veneer of so called civilization”, as you put it.

  234. JM says:
    @Irish Savant

    Yes, that’s him…’Science’ in the service of Subversion.

  235. @Flimpkin-4

    “…the appalling Residential Schools…”

    Have you bothered to actually read the reports published by the TRCC? They do make interesting reading, but unsurprisingly show nothing, for schools of that time period, that could be considered “appalling”, other then some of them really struggled to look after populations of half-breed orphans that were not wanted by either the white or native parents. Often with insufficient funding, run by priests and nuns who were inconsistently paid, and on land in Canada’s north not suited to farming, which at times made obtaining enough food difficult. All during a decades-long tuberculosis epidemic and occasional flu outbreak that killed whites as well as natives both inside and outside the residential schools.

    I recommend this as volume to start with:

    http://nctr.ca/assets/reports/Final%20Reports/Volume_4_Missing_Children_English_Web.pdf

    May you have better luck at sourcing their mortality statistics than I did. The TRCC has never bothered to reply to my email asking for the original data and I wasn’t able to find a physical source of any of the references listed for individual case studies of selected schools. One could almost think that the TRCC just invented the numbers – h’mmm. And please note one of the most interesting sections – Appendix 5 listing the schools that were destroyed by arson attacks – from students – often killing other students and staff. Now that’s appalling!

  236. glib says:
    @Sparkon

    So, Alfred has already discussed the Harvard experiment of one year on steaks, as well as the apparent inability of Inuits (living an ancestral life) to catch scurvy. They also don’t get vitamin D deficiency, but that is another story.

    There are three things that are wrong with your assumption:

    1) Meat does contain vitamin C. A ruminant (say, a cow) gets of order 10grams of the stuff a day, where does it all go? Also meat, non containing carbs, drops dramatically the need for vit. C, to the level where it is needed to form collagen (10 mg/day). Plenty of experimental proofs, these days numbering in the tens of thousands since the carnivore diet is en vogue

    2) cuts of meat favored by hunter gatherers contain large amounts of vitamin C. Liver contains 7 times the vit. C of apples, and it is stable under cooking. Brains (together with marrow, the original meat of homo sapiens, who scavenged it from carcasses) five times. Adrenal glands, favored by northern indians whenever a kill was made in winter, since pemmican’s content was degraded over time, of order 100 times.

    3) but the largest source of vit. C was from eating small intestines whole (that is, fermented grass and forbs). So perhaps I should have said “buffalo” instead of meat. Watch any predator feeding on youtube, they go straight for the gut. Whites exploring North America confirmed that this was done with both buffalo and cariboo.

    To be precise, I do not think that eating small intestines was related to vit. C, although fermented veggies typically have 10X the content of the original veggie. There is plenty of the stuff in animal foods. It had more to do with enzymes (vitamins, cofactors etc.), K and Mg. The gut of carnivores has evolved all right, for wolves and humans, but their bio-chemical machinery not as much.

    • Thanks: GMC
  237. glib says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    Genrick, will you please not interfere with anthropology discussions. They are well above your head. Also, you are the indian today, waiting to be wiped out by Fauci and Gates and their cohorts, so use your time in more productive ways.

    • Agree: St-Germain
    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
  238. Lot says:
    @Mustapha Mond

    “ give thanks every day that civilization was magnanimously bestowed on them by their UK conquerors”

    If it had been East Asians who colonized Aus/NZ first, the Abos and Maori would have been wiped out and quickly forgotten.

  239. @Genrick Yagoda

    You don’t even know what context is, you moronic idiotic cretinous stupid imbecile.

    You don’t know what slanting is, either.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  240. GMC says:
    @Alfred

    The fact that the Alaskan natives are still here , and their corporations are flourishing, shows that the Russians were not the same types as the Europeans/ Americans in the lower 48. Although, some of the Southeast Natives Tlingits and Haida have been programmed to say bad things about Lord Baronoff and the Russians – but both those tribes have the same reputation as the Sioux – factually. Not many Aleuts left – especially after the US Military moved them off the Aleutians in WW II – They moved them in with the Haida and Tlingit, on the mainland …… only half or less made itback and the USGov owns most of the 1000 miles of Islands. I worked on quite a few of them – including the furthest one out there – shemya/attu. Thanks Alfred.

  241. @Per/Norway

    ‘Why are you whining about “savages” a hundred yrs ago? YOU are supporting your politicians and armed terrorist forces that are doing WAY worse things as i type ALL around the world…’

    That’s certainly true. We have a medieval-style siege of Iran & Venezuela in the 21st century, for crying out loud. Also of Cuba & Syria, with medicines, fuel & foodstuffs being deliberately withheld, causing widespread loss of life & immiseration.

    There’s historical consistency in this with the ‘savages’ in Tel Aviv, but do Americans have to do everything that group tells them to do?

  242. Escher says:

    Mankind has been and will always continue to be tribal, violent and aggressive. That’s how we took over the planet, and that’s how ethnic/religious groups like Whites, Chinese and Muslims have become successful.
    Of course, since whites now seem to have a death wish, we can see minority ethnic groups get bolder in their attacks and territorial claims.

  243. Vojkan says:

    Given the size of the country and the population density, there was enough room for both the natives and the settlers. They just were incompatible cultures. Clashing cultures produce barbary like pieces of flint produce fire, everywhere.

  244. Anonymice says:
    @Gordon K. Shumway

    How true! But..

    Today one shouldn’t refer to torturing stone-age savages as torturing stone-age savages.

    Should we call Americans who have killed millions in unprovoked wars of aggression post-WWII civilized savages?Let’s be fair and call evil for what it is, not based on deluded self perception of the perpetrators.

  245. Wielgus says:
    @Avery

    A British magazine on history I once read speculated that northern Europeans in the past were often bordering on scurvy in the winter because of an overly meat-based diet devoid of fruit and vegetables. Henry VIII was a notorious glutton but some of his reported ailments, often during the winter months, resembled scurvy. An interesting theory though I did not find it entirely convincing.

  246. @obwandiyag

    You don’t even know what context is, you moronic idiotic cretinous stupid imbecile.

    Don’t sugarcoat it, Obi, tell him what you REALLY think.

  247. Renoman says:

    In Canada the Natives are gaining ground fast, basically screwing themselves into power with their high birth rates. They are also making social gains thanks to the huge flow of Government money, free University education etc. The vast majority are pretty much lazy addicted and no good but they are improving.

  248. @Achmed E. Newman

    Speedy is friend of everybody’s seester!

    • Replies: @another fred
  249. Scotist says:

    ‘new research seems to suggest the “myth” contains at least some truth. Researchers examined thousands of Native American skeletons and found that those from after Christopher Columbus landed in the New World showed a rate of traumatic injuries more than 50 percent higher than those from before the Europeans arrived.

    “Traumatic injuries do increase really significantly,” said Philip L. Walker, an anthropology professor at the University of California at Santa Barbara, who conducted the study with Richard H. Steckel of Ohio State University.’

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/04/15/bones-reveal-some-truth-in-noble-savage-myth/c6a19b59-cef0-41a1-8df0-d9a59e9d02bd/

  250. Jiminy says:
    @Alfred

    There was a show on tv years ago about the good and bad of having a lot of fish in your diet. One of the bad points was an increase in bleeds. They noticed skin bruising on the indigenous people. And there’s also the increased chance of brain bleeds as well. I think the fish oils were causing it.

  251. @Genrick Yagoda

    Scalping possibly comes from an old Asian tradition of cutting off the topknot to humiliate defeated enemies.

    Something I find hard to accept is the claim that horses were introduced to America by the Spanish and that somehow Indians were taught by the Spaniards how to tame, break and ride wild horses. Where and how did all this take place? After all Siberians were renowned horsemen who at one time conquered much of the Eurasian supercontinent with their lightning fast cavalry led invasions. Now I don’t have any evidence to prove my point, and I am well aware that all the available printed evidence shows otherwise, but still it is counter-intuitive to me to accept the idea that North American native Indians were some pedestrians who crossed the Bering Straits on foot and had to wait for the Spanish to bring horses to them and teach them all the skills that go along with mastering these wild animals. Especially considering that they are just distant cousins of that great horse-riding nation – the Mongols. And they do match their Mongol cousins in cruelty – not that the Spaniards or other whites weren’t cruel in their own way. And it is interesting to note that the feared Vikings were no match for the Indians but that was before the advent of firearms with which the subsequent white invaders of America were armed with.

    • Replies: @PolarBear
    , @notoneofthem
  252. hotrod31 says:

    Fred: I generally enjoy the humourist twist to your incisiveness, however, the obfuscation or deliberate blurring of history doesn’t really do you credit.

    History per se, is written by the victors.

    ’tis oft the case where – one man’s savage is another man’s saviour, is it not? How does one actually define savagery? Is it perhaps in the eye-of-the-beholder alone or through the perceptions of one’s personal value system?

    As an outside observer … I would hazard a guess and say that the American Indian could not have been all that ‘savage’ … or they would not have allowed their country to be stolen by hoards of European ‘savages.’

    From my naive perspective … I would view the wilful slaughter of 1.5 million+ Koreans, or 2.5-3 million innocent Vietnamese peasants as being pretty savage.

  253. @Ace

    My bad for failing to properly interpret what Anonymous was trying to say. I read his post as referring to the White Europeans in America in the same time period Fred was discussing.

    My only point is it was the same brutal regime that decimated the entire South which turned West shortly after so called “Civil War” and laid waste to the Indian “savages”, just as they had laid waste to their White Southern brothers. It was during this time the concept of “total war” became not only morale but necessary for the salvation and continued growth of the Union. The same ruthless butcher led both campaign’s, one General William Tecumseh Sherman. The butcher Sherman is a bit of an enigma himself, and no doubt played a huge part in the building of the American Empire.

    [T]he great triumvirate of the Union Civil War effort [Grant, Sherman and Sheridan] formulated and enacted military Indian policy until reaching, by The 1880s, what Sherman sometimes referred to as “the final solution of the Indian problem,” which he defined as killing hostile Indians and segregating their pauperized survivors in remote places . . . . These men applied their shared ruthlessness, born of their Civil War experiences, against a people all three despised, in the name of Civilization and Progress (emphasis added).

    Cheers
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2003/02/thomas-dilorenzo/what-lincolns-army-did-to-the-indians/

    • Replies: @Ace
  254. Trickster says:
    @Truth

    Level Zero …………Old Sport !

    Video games are not my bag. Too old for that kind of fantasy. My level was the real one, the one that kept me waking up soaked in sweat through the winter of 1975 and well into 1976

    What about you ??

    • Replies: @Truth
  255. Farquad says:

    Idiocy. Any history of North America that starts in the 19th century comes hundreds of years after the indigenous population was essentially wiped out by plagues. It’s no more representative of what native society was once like than a few hundred years after any civilizational collapse would be. Will the North America societies of 2350 represent the heyday of American culture? Will they know anything about it really? The east coast of NA was once extensively populated with towns and villages, not roving bands of warring tribes.

    This woke nonsense of erasing our history can’t be fought by more nonsense of erasing someone else’s. It happened, it was – try to learn about it rather than trying to change it now. Spouting gibberish about history just feeds into the the agendas of (((those))) who want to erase it for their own purposes.

  256. Nat X says: • Website

    I remember when saltines used to be proud to claim injun heritage, what happened?

  257. @obwandiyag

    You’re a fucking ignorant clown. Does some Soros organization pay you 5 cents a post to put up bullshit posts?

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Trickster
  258. @obwandiyag

    The majority of Indians were neolithic Europeans, who practiced subsistence agriculture and hunted. Stop posting, asshole.

  259. Wobble says:
    @Avianthro

    Yes, the names, Democrats and Republicans have a very bad history so changes are surely needed – oh that won’t work will it.
    Also the tortures and murders by present day soldiers are well documented and could be very much more widespread but for the lack of chances and opportunities for them on the ground.

    • Replies: @Ace
  260. PolarBear says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Mongols were good horsemen but took to horses much later than Caucasians. Indians seem to accept White Europeans brought them the horse. Indians could maybe take a small group of Nordic scouts. Stone-age Indians would not fare well against any Viking military with the best armor, weapons, ships, ect. at their disposal. Understand Vikings were the most advanced fighting force in Europe in their day.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Truth
  261. Gabacho says:

    Kind of setting the bar a little low aren’t you, Fred? You push a people too far and they’ll get nasty. While you’re at it, let’s not forget S. C. Gwynne’s “Empire of the Summer Moon.” A fascinating read that helps explain what happened with and to the Comanches. Also, “Mayflower” by N. Philbrick. Anyone who is unaware of the violence and oppression that happened during the “Discovery” of the Americas is just uneducated.

    Affluence breeds Insolence. As you sit there thumb tapping your phone while your TV wails in the background, don’t forget, the Have-Nots are coming for you. Your assault rifle (which you claim you bought to save you from the Gov’t) will not protect you. Americans are so pathetically stupid these days, even the ones living next to Lake Chapala. Trump’s Base has shown us this. The vast majority of the world is out trying to put enough food on the table for tonight. No one is reading your self absorbed comments.

  262. anon[206] • Disclaimer says:
    @PolarBear

    If the Vikings did nothing but fight Natives then how did Native women go to Iceland? Did the Norse kidnap them?

    Why are there Norse DNA markers in some Micmac in Maine?

    • Replies: @PolarBear
  263. @Gordon K. Shumway

    I recall the line, “All the pretty girls are in love with Speedy Gonzales. The rest are chihuahuas.”

    I bet that clip has been memory holed.

  264. @St-Germain

    “What happened to Amerindian societies after 1491 demonstrated the incompatibility of the alien regime of private ownership with any possible alternative based on communal stewardship of resources. Powerful economic incentives to control and to own rendered coexistence impossible.”

    A powerful summary of the clash of cultures. For better or worse (depending on your point of view), the European model has prevailed. What then is the point of continuing to support the fiction of separate, independent, race-based groups within our boundaries?

    • Replies: @St-Germain
  265. @glib

    ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz.

    Grow up, little one. I interfered with nothing, and provided a link to a real actual anthropologic study.

    What on earth is wrong with you children? Why do you comment here?

    @Commentator Mike says:
    January 3, 2021 at 12:33 pm GMT • 6.1 hours ago • 200 Words

    Something I find hard to accept is the claim that horses were introduced to America by the Spanish and that somehow Indians were taught by the Spaniards how to tame, break and ride wild horses.

    I guess no one can know for certain, but the lack of any horses in British Columbia/Alaska would tend to indicate that the Siberians did not bring horses with them. That’s assuming the Siberians did come via the Bering land bridge, and that’s hard to know too, given the lack of artifacts.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  266. One of my favorite stories was Lewis and Clark’s diaries, dated August 16, 1805. The Siberians were so starved for meat that when Lewis’ hunting team brought down a deer, the Siberians attacked it like a pack of ravenous dogs, eating it raw. One Siberian grabbed the intestines that Drewyer had toosed away as waste, and proceeded to eat the intestines and the contents, squeezing the intestines like a tube of whipped cream.

    So much for the myths that the Siberians lives lives of plenty.

    https://lewisclark.net/journals

    when they arrived where the deer was which was in view of me they dismounted and run in tumbling over each other like a parcel of famished dogs each seizing and tearing away a part of the intestens which had been previously thrown out by Drewyer who killed it; the seen was such when I arrived that had I not have had a pretty keen appetite myself I am confident I should not have taisted any part of the venison shortly. each one had a peice of some discription and all eating most ravenously. some were eating the kidnies the melt and liver and the blood runing from the corners of their mouths, others were in a similar situation with the paunch and guts but the exuding substance in this case from their lips was of a different discription. one of the last who att[r]acted my attention particularly had been fortunate in his allotment or reather active in the division, he had provided himself with about nine feet of the small guts one end of which he was chewing on while with his hands he was squezzing the contents out at the other.

    @ anon
    https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4381671

    Because the Soloutreans were here first, and likely bred with the Siberians when they arrived.

  267. PolarBear says:
    @anon

    The same way Gaelic women ended up in Iceland. Vikings typically wouldn’t even have to kidnap women, women were attracted to their power, cleanliness, ect. The Vikings did so much fucking with Micmac women, they still carry that Norse gene.

    • Replies: @Truth
  268. @Anonymous

    “Banning further third world immigration.”

    Even better, ban immigration altogether. Tell all Green Card holders to apply for citizenship or leave. Deport all illegals, temporary refugee status holders, and revoke the citizenship of those (many) who have been granted citizenship under false pretenses. Stop accepting any refugees except whites from South Africa. End all work, student and matrimonial visas for foreigners. Track all other visitors and actually enforce their departure at the appointed time.

    This is what would be done if we lived in a serious country.

    • Agree: Colin Wright, Ace
    • Replies: @Avery
    , @nokangaroos
  269. @Genrick Yagoda

    Well there were prehistoric horses in America but the theory is that they went extinct (due to climate change but then why extinct only in America and not elsewhere?) and were much later introduced by the Spaniards:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_the_United_States

    @Polar Bear

    Not all native Indians accept the aforementioned theory:

    https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/yes-world-there-were-horses-in-native-culture-before-the-settlers-came-JGqPrqLmZk-3ka-IBqNWiQ

    It seems rather odd to think that the Spanish brought these horses over then didn’t bother to care for them much and let them roam wild and reproduce all over the place until Cowboys and Indians started rounding them up and taming them much later on. If they were so valuable to the Cowboys and Indians to actually go out and look for them why weren’t they valuable enough to the Spaniards to keep them corralled and in their own possession in the first place? Doesn’t make sense.

  270. Adûnâi says: • Website
    @Dr. Robert Morgan

    What would be your opinion on the universalist Communist of Soviet type? The kind that gave us the vision of the United Nations? Which sees merit only in that war which devolves into a fair competition in science for the mutual betterment of “humanity”? I believe, it differs a bit from the Christian capitalism of the West, forever vicious towards the White race, and from the savage and healthy racism of non-Whites.

    Still, I could nitpick and remind you of how the Bhagavad-Gita of the fairly uncivilised Aryans prohibited taking pleasure in violence for some reason.

    Savitri Devi – And Time Rolls On, p. 124

    Karma yoga is one of the teachings of the Bhagavad-Gita. Not only of the Gita. You get it in National Socialism. I’ll tell you what is Karma yoga. Karma yoga is: Act with your body for the interest of the universe, according to the scheme of the universe, the divine scheme, and without any passion, without any personal attachment or disgust or enthusiasm or anything. Just do it because it’s duty. Act in the name of duty alone. That’s Karma yoga.

  271. Peg B says: • Website

    I think the Standing Rock Reservation Sioux were both brave and noble for their non-violent protests despite violence to men, women and children protecting their source of water. The elders led the passive resistance.

    To recap: Posted by E. Fuller on Oct. 31, 2016:

    “There have been a lot of questions surrounding the influx of military style troops and equipment to the Standing Rock Sioux tribal area in North Dakota. In August, North Dakota Gov. Jack Dalrymple declared a state of emergency in response to the growing Dakota Access pipeline protests, and Morton County Sheriff Kyle Kirchmeier has invoked the Emergency Management Assistance Compact, calling on police resources from six surrounding states.

    “On Thursday, police executed a particularly violent sweep of a camp that left structures destroyed, more than 140 people arrested, cars impounded and others burning on the side of the road. The highly militarized response—armored vehicles and heavy weaponry—was recorded by many people caught in the assault.

    “…The questions many are asking range from why a private pipeline company warrants a seven-state security force paid for by taxpayers, to why President Obama has not stepped in.”

    And they were right, the pipeline did leak. Tiny mention in mainstream media.

    Whatever violence American Indians meted out (and who knows if critics were lying mercenaries like MSM today), they didn’t pollute the earth, water or air as industrialists do. They were/are people whose command of natural technology resulted in food we depend on today and medicine as well. Peruvians supplied Spanish invaders with quinine for malaria; the Spanish had no cure.

    Nor did they weaponize disease, as The Suits (white American officials and investors) did, handing out smallpox-infected blankets that wiped out families and villages.

    And isn’t that what is happening today, with the covid Angel of Death injectables (falsely labeled as “medicine”) laden with all manner of toxins that compromise immune systems, so that, while we are promised (but not guaranteed) protection from disease, we and our children also have the likelihood of developing chronic to fatal conditions? Given the cabal members running the show, one wonders if “goyim” are the targets?

    As with American Indians, The Suits are impoverishing the unwealthy and taking property. In the late 1700 to early 1800s , the economic engine of the day was trade for both poor whites and Native Americans, but for the wealthy, it was land speculation.

    The Suits would clear the way by inciting American settlers and immigrant whites against American Indians, fraudulently claiming horrors had been committed (read, That Dark and Bloody Ground). In the same way, various races are today being systemically vilified so citizens will not unite against today’s horrors imposed by The Suits, but fight one another.

    So is that the goal of this hate-filled series of columns? Is there payment involved for inciting ordinary people against one another? Fred if you are writing for free instead of for hire, I don’t get ya.

    • Disagree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Ace
  272. R2b says:

    White appearance on red shores, was a blessing.
    They brought the Word of God.
    That in it self, forgive all.
    I am sick of the honorable savage.
    No matter what his causes where.
    When truth comes, and you recognizes: blessed are you.

  273. Mark. says:
    @Bragadocious

    When we consider civilization, we should remember France, Germany, Britain, Russia, Italy and Austria during the period 1914 to 1945. These were all first world highly civilized nations.

    • Replies: @Ace
  274. Avery says:
    @Joseph Doaks

    Like all others expressing sentiments similar to yours, none of that will happen.

    Very simple reason:
    –By hook-or-crook, Biden and Kamala were “elected”.
    –The House of Representatives is solidly Democratic, meaning Open Borders.
    –The Senate is barely Republican, and many Republican Senators are ‘America First’ in name only.

    Trump kind-sorta tried to build a wall, but was largely thwarted by the Radical Left, by the Courts, you name it. And remember, the Hildabeast got millions of more votes than Trump: if it weren’t for the wise Electoral College system, Trump would not be POTUS. And Democrats (aka Radical Left) are diligently working to eliminate the Electoral College.

    This country cannot even keep people who have no right to be here from simply walking into US thru the Southern border, and staying as long as they want….like forever.
    And you guys think any of the things listed in your wish-list post can be implemented?
    Please.

    (btw: I am a (legal) immigrant from many years ago)

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
  275. There are a pair of Swedish movies from the seventies: The Emigrants and The New Land.

    They’re worth watching in general: impoverished Swedes moving to Minnesota in the 1850’s. Liv Ullman is her luminous self, and I only noticed a couple of insignificant errors of fact.

    More to the point, though, the films scrupulously portray the Indians and the Indian presence from the settlers’ point of view. As was noted long ago, sympathy for the Noble Red Man varies inversely with one’s proximity to him. It did a hundred and seventy years ago, and it still does today.

  276. Truth says:
    @Trickster

    Are you saying you fought in Vietnam? I thought that was over by Spring of ’75.

    I have probably spent 12 hours of my life playing videogames since the arcades closed in the 80’s.

  277. Truth says:
    @Eric Novak

    Does some Soros organization pay you 5 cents a post to put up bullshit posts?

    …And if they do, Obi, would you kindly forward me the email of your benefactor?

  278. Truth says:
    @PolarBear

    They also traveled by ship which is a lot more expedient in a Nordic Fjord than in Oklahoma territory.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  279. Nancy says:
    @Sparkon

    An interesting, factual, (and entertaining :), history of ‘food nutrition’ in the US is ‘Death by Food Pyramid’ by Denise Minger. It also has no diet bias. (BTW, I think Ancel Keys has a lot of blood on his hands.)

  280. Ganderson says:
    @Anonymous

    John Keegan’s book The Wars for North America has a very good section on the wars for the Northern Plains.

    I second the upvotes for Black Robe- it takes both the Jesuits and the Indians seriously without sugar coating things. The movie also stars the very lovely 20 year old Sandrine Holt.

    Ditto for Empire of the Summer Moon. Larry McMurtry in his various novels treats the Indians especially the Comanche, with respect , while not romanticizing them either.

    I’ll be checking out the books on the Sioux Uprising.

  281. Ganderson says:
    @RouterAl

    The lack of the concept of “Indianness” if you will, doomed the natives. I always wonder if the Indians had been able to unite, might they have prevailed? They probably didn’t have the numbers, but…

    And I know, the Euros were disunited too…

  282. Ganderson says:
    @Sollipsist

    Lake Calhoun in Minneapolis was renamed because Calhoun had slaves. I never miss a chance to point out to Minneapolis woksters of my acquaintance that the Indians who occupied the area had slaves too. I’m guessing though that the Indians who lived there wouldn’t have stood idly by and watched people burn down their villages….

    • Agree: Sollipsist
  283. anon[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Ok how about the Washington Red-Necks, Atlanta Cousins, Houston Honkees and the Cleveland Inbred.

    I think this is good and no one will be insulted.

  284. Truth says:
    @PolarBear

    Vikings typically wouldn’t even have to kidnap women, women were attracted to their power, cleanliness, ect.

    Well, I see someone received the 7-season box set of Vikings for Christmas.

    • Replies: @PolarBear
    , @Trickster
  285. Davidoff says:

    Oh…Here we go again… to troll or not to troll…

    Your usurped fairytale BLMLGTB+++++×××××÷÷÷÷÷%%%%€£¥₩$#@*+—****##[email protected]#$MAGABIDENimean BIDETWTF country was built upon the blood of the true natives and TRUE AMERICANS, the massacred native indian Americans who were racistly annihilated in their own land by IMMIGRANTS from another continent. These same immigrants and their sons when finished the killing and exploitation of that massive foreign land, decided it was not enough. They brought slaves from yet another continent to build a country that has been racistly bullying and looting the rest of the planet ever since because they think they have the god given racist right and are deluded into thinking they are, as your peace nobled prized but very warmongering ex-president said “the indispensable nation ” meaning all other nations are racistly dispensable… The list of atrocities commited around the world by this “indispensable” MONSTER is endless.

    What comes around goes around…

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Poco
  286. Ace says:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    It’s not a history well known to me. If that is how and why it went down the way it did, so be it.

    My parents were frontier people though their experience was not violent but very interesting for the absolute newness and vitality of it all. Both were well educated products of the excellent schools of the time and never expressed any animosity to any others.

    The dispossession of the Siberians was very hard for them but eventually a blanket of white European civilization lay across the nation and something new and equally exhilarating sprang up. Which was unchangeable. Or at least no one anticipated the malevolence and dishonesty of the socialists and “progressives” as the term is understood today.

    If not exhilarating then at least it was something that was open to talent in a major way. The Siberians are not the only people in human history to have to suck it up and each and every one of us has the option to get on with life.

    What matters is how it is . . . and you are . . . today. And what you got. To encounter a well-mannered, good-hearted man or woman is one of life’s joys. Minorities or any others who choose to pick at the scab of their resentments will only sit there and stew until they are soured permanently. And despised by everyone else. The Blacks Liberating Merchandise and AntiFa filth are in that category. Never able to get over It, whatever It is. A 25-year statute of limitations on all personal heartburn and the availability of special compensatory privileges (i.e., affirmative action) is decidedly in order.

    • Replies: @Johnny Walker Read
  287. obvious says:
    @Avianthro

    There is a huge difference between blasting an area and torturing children. The INJUNS were MERCILESS SAVAGES and WHITE PEOPLE are BETTER for being MORE FAVORED of GOD ALMIGHTY, hence His support for OUR EXPANSION in history, which is the only evolution that counts. That’s why it’s called “The White Man’s Burden”.

    So live up to it and be thankful.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  288. @Davidoff

    ‘Oh…Here we go again… to troll or not to troll…

    Your usurped fairytale BLMLGTB+++++×××××÷÷÷÷÷%%%%€£¥₩$#@*+—****##[email protected]#$MAGABIDENimean BIDETWTF country was built upon the blood of the true natives and TRUE AMERICANS, the massacred native indian Americans who were racistly annihilated in their own land by IMMIGRANTS from another continent. These same immigrants and their sons when finished the killing and exploitation of that massive foreign land, decided it was not enough. They brought slaves from yet another continent to build a country that has been racistly bullying and looting the rest of the planet ever since because they think they have the god given racist right and are deluded into thinking they are, as your peace nobled prized but very warmongering ex-president said “the indispensable nation ” meaning all other nations are racistly dispensable… The list of atrocities commited around the world by this “indispensable” MONSTER is endless.

    What comes around goes around…’

    Are you Jewish?

    You sound kind of stupid for that, but on the other hand…

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  289. Ace says:
    @Peg B

    You mean fact-filled, I believe.

  290. Poco says:
    @Moi

    Nah. Just incapable of creating the firepower.

  291. Ace says:
    @Mark.

    That war was a political failure, not a civilizational failure.

  292. Poco says:
    @St-Germain

    Go ahead and live communistically. Divvy up your possessions and distribute them.

  293. PolarBear says:
    @Truth

    Child please, that show is painfully Historically inaccurate. Vikings were well groomed and bathed often. The women of the tribes they conquered generally didn’t need much convincing.

  294. @Avery

    Right. All of which is to say “we don’t live in a serious country.”

  295. Sparkon says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    Glib and others like him are fantasists, imagining some sort of Siberian Wakanda existed in NA prior to the white man.

    Well, I don’t know what you’d call it, but I think the life history of the native tribes was rather more intricate and nuanced than what seems to be generally appreciated here, at least from what has been expressed so far, so let me try to fill in a few of the blank or blind spots.

    I can’t account for those ravenous Redskins chewing on intestines as reported by Lewis & Clark, but just for the sake of contrast, here’s another account of a different tribe with rather better table manners:

    The next day we saw in a prairie a great herd of buffalos. A halt was called and two old men harangued the young men for half an hour, urging them to show their skill in shooting down all the buffalos that we saw, and to manage so as to make all those that they could not kill move toward us.

    …they started out in two bands, running always at a trot. When they were about a quarter of a league from the animals, they all ran at full speed, and when within gunshot they fired several volleys and shot off an extraordinary number of arrows. A great number of buffalos remained on the ground, and they pursued the rest in such manner that they were driven toward us. Our old men butchered these…they killed 120 buffalos from which they brought back a hundred tongues. The people from my cabin smoked these and distributed them among themselves to carry to me.

    We remained a week in this place in order to dry all this meat. They make for this purpose a kind of cradle ten feet long, three feet wide, and four feet high, which they call gris, upon which they spread out their meat after preparing it … They fold it up while still hot, like a portfolio, so as to make it easier to carry. The most robust men and women carry as many as eight, for a whole day. This is not possible in autumn nor in winter, however, as the cows are then very fat; they then can carry four at most.

    The drying of this meat by the women and girls does not prevent the young men from going to the chase every day each for himself… These little hunts are ordinarily for bucks, bears, and young turkeys, on which they feast, not failing to invite the strangers whom they have among them (a very frequent thing), such as Miami, Ottawa, Potawatomi, Kickapoo, and others; so that there were days when I was invited as many as ten times. We did not dare to refuse, having learned that they were grieved if anyone who was among them did not come.

    Some days later they again surrounded a large herd of buffalos…

    — The De Gannes Memoir
    Inoca (Ilimouec, Illinois, Illini, Peoria) Ethnohistory Project
    Parkland College, Ill.

    http://virtual.parkland.edu/lstelle1/len/center_for_social_research/inoca_ethnohistory_project/DEGANNES.HTM

    As I mentioned in passing above, there was not only trade between the tribes, but also extensive trade networks over long distances well before the natives are known to have acquired the horse.


    Rogan Birdman — Mississippian Copper Plates

    The copper artifact was found in the southwest but is thought to have been fashioned at Cahokia, where a copper workshop was located in one of the mounds.

    Cahokia became the most important center for the people known today as Mississippians. Their settlements ranged across what is now the Midwest, Eastern, and Southeastern United States. Cahokia was located in a strategic position near the confluence of the Mississippi, Missouri, and Illinois Rivers. It maintained trade links with communities as far away as the Great Lakes to the north and the Gulf Coast to the south, trading in such exotic items as copper, Mill Creek chert, and whelk shells.

    The Cahokia culture apparently reached its peak around 1100, and then declined, disappeared, and/or dispersed for unknown reasons.

    The site is named for the Cahokia tribe, part of the so-called Illinois Confederation that occupied parts of Illinois and neighboring states at the time of first contact with the Europeans, but it’s not known if the Illini, who called themselves Inoca, are related to or sprang from the mound builders and coppersmiths. Whatever the case and irrespective of who made them, the copper plates themselves certainly prove that the N. American natives were mining and working copper, which corresponds to the Eurasian Chalcolithic or Copper Age…

    the transitional period between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age. It is taken to begin around the mid-5th millennium BC, and ends with the beginning of the Bronze Age proper, in the late 4th to 3rd millennium BC, depending on the region..

    So the N. American natives had entered the copper age sometime prior to the arrival of the Europeans, putting their civilizations in the “New World” roughly 4 millennia behind the European invaders from the “Old World” in cultural terms, a gap that would prove to be a fatal disadvantage for the natives, as history has recorded.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  296. @glib

    It is not reasonable to suppose that Amerindians n Europeans can eat the same foods. Europeans have practiced agriculture for well over ten thousand years. Amerindians for no more than three. Europeans are therefore well adjusted to grain heavy diet with a high tolerance for alcohol while Amerindians do better with meat. Indians have little tolerance for alcohol n tend to develop diabetes n obesity with a grain rich diet. It’s always a mistake to presume that different groups of people have the same predispositions n abilities. Evolution makes that impossible.

  297. @meamjojo

    Nonsense. This is nothing more than PC anti white bigotry. If I were living next to stone age savages whose only entertainment was torturing helpless whites n stealing everything that isn’t nailed down, I would organize death squads n chase them the heck away. And you would too.

  298. @Jimmy le Blanc

    “the Indians, especially the Iroquois, did not see the Europeans as a threat, but as a source of guns they could use to attack and enslave their historical enemies.”

    Sounds like geopolitics of today. Illegal guns fueling the street crime throughout the Americas and legal weapons trade supplying the world with means to make war. the more things change the more they stay the same.

  299. @GMC

    Actually there were rules in war as practiced by Europeans, the only people in the world to have such rules. Amerindians had no such conception so had to be dealt with in their own terms. One of the reasons why the US entered WW1 was their outrage over Germany’s use of submarines, air attacks, field gray uniforms, n poison gas. All of which were regarded as violating the rules of civilized warfare.

    In WW2 the armed forces of the US were instructed to ignore the rules of war n firebombed n napalmed entire cities. But this was done at the urging of the Jews who ran the White House n had never been standard policy until then. This matched the genocidal policies of the Jews who ran the Soviet Union. The US armed forces have been under their influence ever since, n still are, while Russia has freed itself.

  300. @Commentator Mike

    There were no horses in North America, if horses ever did cross the Bering Straits with humans, they would have been eaten as food. The Viking numbers were far too small, they were either killed or absorbed into the Indian population.

  301. vox4non says:

    Marvellous. This article by Fred Reed is like a Rorschach test. The extremists on both sides will claim their vindication, while ignoring the main thrust of the article. We are all savage, whether clothed or otherwise; and that the law of the jungle still holds. Pray then that when the time comes for a different power or people to claim the Americas, they will be more merciful than the “civilised settlers” of old.

  302. anon[325] • Disclaimer says:
    @PolarBear

    Norse coins sometimes turn up in Maine to this day. So did the Vikings merely have one or two beach scuffles with Natives or did they actually trade with them for some period of time?

    It is indisputable that more than one Beothuk woman from Canada returned to Iceland.

    Iceland is in Europe, so how could pre-Columbus Europeans have believed the world was flat when there were actually Native American women in Iceland & it appears one returned with the Norse to the Orkney Islands.

    Did the Norse in Maine rape local Native women or did they settle down with them? Was there a pattern of intermarriage with Norse in Maine or were these simply one-off sexual encounters?

    Didn’t later arrivals from Siberia wipe out/invade earlier Paleo-Indians?

    Are all Native Americans from Siberia? I thought the Navajo were much later arrivals from Northern Japan?

    If all Native Americans are from Siberia than why do Central & South Americans resemble Pacific Islanders? Was this convergent evolution?

    Are the higher levels of violence in Central America because they are Amerindian?

    Are Cuban whites in Miami more successful because they are the Latinos who have no Native American blood?

    • Replies: @Poco
  303. The Nobility of Savages

    First i thought what the US did to other tribes – such as Vietnamese, Cambodians, Venezuelan, Chilean, Libyans, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranian, Palestinians, Afghani to name a few – was meant.

    Maybe what the scum of europe, the US ancestors did to the natives?

    No.

    He meant the natives himself, that wasn’t nice in a way to the invaders like US bombs to civil shelters and unprotected innocents in Baghdad, Hue, Da Nang, Saigon, Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Belgrade, Tripolis, and and and. Except they weren’t the agressors.

    But they had Tomahawks! So they named this “cruise missile” personally?

    • Replies: @Lost American
  304. @Jimmy le Blanc

    Black Robe was a good film. I live in the North Country with the gray, dark skies and damp cold. Californians would be lost here.
    I did get an appreciation for the sound of the hurdy gurdy when watching Black Robe some 28 years ago.

  305. @Rednose-Airline

    I am not supporting the US-Vietnam War but you left out the North Viet Communist purges in the 1950s, 60s , and the wonderful reeducation camps. Don’t forget the wonderful Pol Pot. You left out the wonderful killings the Japanese performed on the Chinese, Burmese, and lots of other tribes.
    You left out a lot of history but that is what radical leftists do.

    • Replies: @Rednose-Airline
  306. @utu

    Native populations fared the best under Russians and Catholics.

    There were Russians on the west coast before the Anglo-Saxons. They didn’t seem to have problems with the native Indians, but then they were probably in small numbers and not perceived as a threat.

  307. @gotmituns

    I read several books about the steelworkers in Manhattan in the first half of the 20th century. Some 90% or more were of European heritage. One gets the impression from the media today that only American Indians did high steel work.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  308. @Ray Caruso

    The Aztecs were practicing human sacrifice and cannibalism on a massive scale.

    Civilised Romans used to throw people to the lions to amuse the public before the gladiator games . I wonder if anyone has added up how many were so sacrificed throughout the Roman Empire while it lasted. And public executions were entertainment throughout the Middle Ages in Europe.

  309. Vojkan says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I think the denial that that there were horses in the Americas before Columbus is simply a case of “that which we cannot explain doesn’t exist”.

  310. sb says:
    @utu

    I’ve never heard it said before that Australia had Low class settlers and New Zealand Upper class settlers . I’d always understood that the immigrant groups were pretty similar -and pretty mobile -with perhaps Australia being a bit more Irish Catholic and New Zealand being a bit more Scottish Presbyterian . I’d say the settlers attitude towards the indigenous people had a lot more to do with the nature of the indigenous people themselves rather than the nature of the settlers

    Sources ??

    • Replies: @utu
    , @utu
    , @utu
    , @Alden
  311. @Colin Wright

    Blood pressure, probably 😀

    But I guess a case can be made that:

    – The last time Americans fought for freedom of any description was the
    Battle of New Orleans, and even that was an idiocy and a war crime.
    – BLM and Antifa are the condign heirs of countless generations of self-righteous assholes, and whatever they can wrest from you is rightfully theirs by your own standards;
    beati sunt possidentes does not magically no longer apply to invaders, looters and rapists just because it´s your turn.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  312. @Lost American

    You left out a lot of history but that is what radical leftists do.

    Any indifference to the authors focus? Myself can’t write the whole picture in a few sentences. On the other hand your’s are right. US is identical to the communist bastards living in the “jungle”. Viewed from the “primitive tribes” point. Wich much better Christmas speaks and illumination. Maybe in a moment of self-recognition they named their murder instruments to that of the natives killed before.

    But no difference over here (Germany). I am pretty aware what the “leaders” and “elites” did to other people. Instead of war paint they wear ties and medals, all of them.

  313. @Ace

    Agree with all you say in the last paragraph, but true history plays an important part in all roads forward, and maybe can find a better way forward next time by learning from the past.

    I know this clip is kind of hoakey, but it speaks a great deal of truth.
    Cheers

    • Thanks: Ace
  314. @PolarBear

    Not sure if serious…

    • Replies: @Truth
  315. @Joseph Doaks

    Thanks for that. You filed the only sensible one of the five comments on what I had to say about Fred’s superficial essay on what proper mode of killing should now be regarded as politically correct in what was actually a protracted total war between indigenous people and historic invaders seeking to replace them on their own continent.

    The four negative comments were apparently triggered by the generic word communist or the mention of Engels. They all failed to grasp that the communal tribal societies the Europeans first encountered north of the Rio Grande had nothing to do with what modern Americans have learned to detest in the defunct Soviet Union and the other one-party dictatorships spawned by Russia’s Bolshevik revolution.

    The latter, despite Marx’ expectation that the State would whither away, were hierarchic organized and remained that way until they failed from their own internal contradictions. In Europe, there had been no alternative to rigid state hierarchy in the past couple of millennia, meaning there was no possibility for truly communal structures even in what we denounce as Communism. It was a state ideology of social engineering imposed from the top down.

    The Amerindian tribes were just the opposite, namely internally egalitarian or liberitarian. Every man was a king and would accept no master. There was no entrenched hierarchy and men who emerged as leaders were accepted only temporarily on merit because they came up with the better plan in some specific situation, e.g. a war or raid.

    The communitarian ethos of sharing equally and eschewing acquisitive vices arose from their cultural tradition. There were rarely any hereditary bosses and even the term ‘chief’ was often applied by Europeans to single out certain respected Amerindians because the Europeans, as spear-carriers for some monarch, couldn’t deal with anything other than as hierarchical social pyramid, even if they had to imagine it.

    The comments here, though, tell us that Europeans and Americans haven’t changed much from feudalism. They would gladly crown a new hereditary monarch if they could find someone attractive enough with whom they might momentarily agree.

  316. @Truth

    I thought the Vikings settled on the east coast. Is there any evidence that some got as far as Oklahoma?

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Poco
  317. Truth says:
    @RedpilledAF

    …You must be new here.

    • Replies: @RedpilledAF
  318. Trickster says:
    @Truth

    Black Boy, you always write the most idiotic shit, as if you wish to show your skill in doing so. Were you born a simpleton or did you work hard to acquire the character and speech of a buffoon.

    You should not have dropped out of Ghetto Public School 21 in JK.

    Your handle should be BULLSHIT, not TRUTH !

    • LOL: GeneralRipper
    • Replies: @Truth
  319. Trickster says:
    @Eric Novak

    Anytime Obwaggywag or whatever his Congo idiotic name is, gets taken to task, Truth comes to the rescue. These two Blacks write the same stupid comments on this site. I got a feeling they are one person using two handles or else they have a homo thing going.

    • Agree: GeneralRipper
  320. utu says:
    @sb

    Colonists to NZ were selected in attempt to replicate the society of Britain. Colonization was planned and regulated.

    Humanitarian Governance in Colonial New Zealand (1833 – 1872)
    https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/144082/mwoodbur_1.pdf

    Instead of the chaos of unregulated migration, Wakefield promoted reproducing British social, political, and economic models as the key to colonial success. Contrasting what he characterized as the prevailing view of colonies as “fit only for the residence of convicts, labourers, mechanics, and desperate or needy men,” Wakefield instead argued colonies could extend British influence through organized settlement while simultaneously resolving demographic pressures at home.

    Controlling who could own what land was the central mechanism allowing the reproduction of British society overseas. Instead of an itinerant and spatially diffused population of shepherds that characterized the older Australian colonies of Victoria and New South Wales, Wakefield’s plan promised a careful balance of capitalist and laborer, land owner and tenant.

    Wakefield’s efforts constituted a set of “experiments designed to ensure the evils of English society would not be reproduced and to prevent the evils of frontier societies from taking root.” The key was establishing a “sufficient price” for land set high enough to preclude the easy acquisition of land by laborers and consequent dispersal of population but not so high as to discourage capitalists form investing.

    Unlike other examples of colonial expansion based largely on military conquest or assumptions of terra nullius, however, advocates of annexation pointed to the contractual and joint nature of the document as marking a qualitative shift in the history of empire. Instead of relying on force, New Zealand’s annexation via a treaty recognizing the rights of Māori established New Zealand as an experiment in colonial governance.

    In light of previous instances of European settlement that had destroyed indigenous American populations, the NZC proposed a new strategy of colonial administration it thought would protect Māori from a similar fate. Central to Wakefield’s testimony before the committee was the Company’s plan for Māori living within the Company’s purchases.

  321. utu says:
    @sb

    More on Wakefield thoughts about new society.

    Colonization, Education, and the Formation of Moral Character: Edward Gibbon Wakefield’s A Letter from Sydney

    https://carleton.ca/socanth/wp-content/uploads/curtis-colonization.pdf

    “New societies” were not defined by the period of their establishment, “for, ac- cording to our sense of the word, the Canadians will probably be a newer people fifty years hence than they were fifty years ago, and the United States’ Americans are a newer people now, in 1829, than they were in 1779.” Simply put, “newness” referred to “an excess of territory in proportion to inhabitants,” and for Wakefield, new societ- ies were composed of people whose numbers increased but who made “no progress in the art of living; who, in respect to wealth, knowledge, skill, taste, and whatever belongs to civilization, have degenerated from their ancestors.” Unless they used slave labour, they could never be wealthy, and although there might be universal schooling in such societies, it stopped “before the age of puberty” and so was “if not an evil, at least a dangerous thing.” Without Wakefield’s proposed reforms, schooling could not civilize those in new societies.36

    People in such societies were transients who could never perfect anything; their “opinions are only violent and false prejudices, the necessary fruit of ignorance.”

    Their “character is a compound of vanity, bigotry, obstinacy, and hatred most com- prehensive, including whatever does not meet their own pinched notions of right.” They took pleasure in “a forced equality,” which was against nature, and such equal- ity “rewards the mean rather than the great, and gives more honour to the vile than to the noble.” In sum, the people of new societies “become rotten before they are ripe.”

    Similarly, in America, relative wealth did not lead to leisure, reflection, or self- cultivation. Instead, the high price of labour caused by the easy availability of land encouraged sloth. The Letter retailed the story of the American youth of good family who quit school against his father’s wishes to head west, and who ended up working three days a week in order to stay continually drunk, when he could have become wealthy by staying in New York and following a regular course of life. In America, the correspondent from Sydney met “a people without monuments, without history, without any love of birthplace, without local attachments founded on impressions of the past,” and he learned that with “a new people, restlessness is a passion, insatiable whilst any means of indulging it remain; a disease, incurable but by cutting away all its source.” The passage about a country without history re-appeared to describe canadiens in Lord Durham’s Report, where it continues to be read as deeply insulting by québécois nationalists

    • Thanks: nokangaroos
  322. utu says:
    @sb

    One more:

    Edward Gibbon Wakefifield and the development of his theory of “Systematic Colonization”
    https://digitalcommons.unomaha.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1448&context=studentwork

  323. Adûnâi: “What would be your opinion on the universalist Communist of Soviet type? … Still, I could nitpick and remind you of how the Bhagavad-Gita of the fairly uncivilised Aryans prohibited taking pleasure in violence for some reason.”

    I agree with Spengler.

    “All Communist systems in the West are in fact derived from Christian theological thought … Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.”
    – Oswald Spengler, in The Hour of Decision

    But in a Darwinian world, I would go further and say that community itself, in whatever political form, arises only as a by-product of the fact that joining the individual into a community makes him a more efficient killer; better able to dominate his environment. Yet, the individual preceded the community, in the same way that unicellular organisms preceded multicellular ones, and so this joining into a community comes at a cost. It removes his freedom of action, and threatens to turn him into a slave, a victim, food for someone else. Thus, it’s an uneasy alliance of convenience, always on the verge of breaking down. We should keep in mind that Darwinism’s most fundamental principle is that all are engaged in a war against all, and that doesn’t change within states, races, or even within families. This means that love and community feelings in general, of whatever kind, are only a form of transmuted, primal hate; that love is only an illusion designed to further this marriage of convenience, the joining of an individual to others to enhance his killing efficiency. As Reed’s article demonstrates, all men are born with an unquenchable fire of hate within them, to dominate and destroy.

    Of course, too great an emotional involvement can also cause problems. A killer who gets too carried away with the thrill of the kill is liable to be less efficient than one who can do it with more detachment. So then we get such things as an appeal to “duty”, to tone down the hate and remove some of the enjoyment. This is the beginning of the technological problem.

    Perhaps this kind of self-deception is, at least in part, the origin of the God delusion, as Dawkins styles it. Did you see the 2008 movie Martyrs? It’s about a cult that kidnaps young girls and tortures them to death; tortures them coldly, brutally, meticulously, one might even say scientifically, with great detachment, so perhaps Savitri Devi would approve. The idea is to get the dying, martyred girl to see beyond death, into the afterlife (if any), and report what she sees to the cult leader before she dies. Since it deals with child abuse, Chechar might find it interesting too.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  324. @Commentator Mike

    It seems rather odd to think that the Spanish brought these horses over then didn’t bother to care for them much and let them roam wild and reproduce all over the place until Cowboys and Indians started rounding them up and taming them much later on. If they were so valuable to the Cowboys and Indians to actually go out and look for them why weren’t they valuable enough to the Spaniards to keep them corralled and in their own possession in the first place? Doesn’t make sense.

    Well of course they kept their personal horses corralled.

    But they would release livestock and horses in the wild to breed freely. Then if they later needed a horse or a goat they would go get one.

    There were no horses in the Americas with the Spanish arrived. They created detailed accounts of their experiences. Everyone just assumes the Indians had horses for millennia because of Hollywood movies.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  325. Truth says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Indians could maybe take a small group of Nordic scouts. Stone-age Indians would not fare well against any Viking military with the best armor, weapons, ships, ect. at their disposal.

  326. @PolarBear

    Child please, that show is painfully Historically inaccurate. Vikings were well groomed and bathed often. The women of the tribes they conquered generally didn’t need much convincing.

    Totally ridiculous.

    Troof can be a troll but he is right about the Vikings.

    Killing the men and dragging off their wives as sex slaves really did happen. In fact there are accounts of them doing it even when they had women and food.

    I highly doubt the captured women shrugged after seeing their men killed and villages burned to the ground. Or when the Vikings would take their pretty teenage daughters. In fact there is an interesting theory whereby Sweden has a lot of good looking women because the Vikings stole the prettiest girls from Britain.

    If you actually made a realistic show about the Vikings both alt-right and the left would be deeply offended. For whatever reason alt-right likes to think that pre-Christian Europe was highly principled and only later morally corrupted. Really amusing since we have accounts of the Vikings from both sides.

  327. Truth says:
    @Trickster

    You should not have dropped out of Ghetto Public School 21 in JK.

    Well…technically… it was Ghetto Public School 231…

  328. @Dr. Robert Morgan

    I agree with Spengler.

    “All Communist systems in the West are in fact derived from Christian theological thought … Christian theology is the grandmother of Bolshevism.”
    – Oswald Spengler, in The Hour of Decision

    The problem with that view is that statist egalitarianism predates Christianity.

    Plato in fact created a detailed plan for how he would maximize equality through government management. He concluded that the only way to have equality in a nation-state was to lie to the people. Only the noble rulers would know the truth. He called this the Noble Lie and it is discussed in most philosophy 101 courses. So your typical politician is aware of this theory (and they support it with the lie of race not existing). Marx took this even further and flat out said that there should be no free speech or press less it be a threat to the proletariat state.

    The Greeks were debating the idea of equality through state control well before Christ.

    • Replies: @Adûnâi
  329. @Commentator Mike

    I´m afraid the fossil record is unequivocal – the only animal they brought was the dog and the only ones they half-assedly “domesticated” were the turkey, the guinea pig and the camel.
    (There were pre-Columbian chickens in Southern Chile, but that´s a different story)
    Of course everybody is free to assert the reason we find neither horse bones nor horse burials is
    1) we are not allowed to look nyah nyah nyah, and
    2) they had pyramids; pyramids, capisce?

    – The oldest hints at domesticated horses (bridle?) are Magdalénien, the stirrup late bronze age;
    but it gets worse: These were different horses, the only relics of which are the Norwegian Fjord Horse and the Przewalskij – short and stocky, muscled neck, convex profile, standing mane.
    The famous Horse of the Moon Goddess (Parthenon, Elgin Marbles) clearly shows the archaic type – probably a sign of the Doric Invasion from the North.
    These horses have been completely replaced by what the vertebrate wizards call the “Kilikian horse” tall, gracile, long neck, concave profile, flowing mane and tail – and mustangs are very clearly of the modern type.

    Still this is about the emperor´s beard – isn´t it fascinating enough how quickly a very distinct culture developed (and from what another commenter remarked on the sociological implications of bride price was nowhere near settled)?

  330. @John Johnson

    That may be so but there were many different Indian tribes spread over the entire Americas and the Spaniards weren’t familiar with all of them. Somehow I don’t think the tropics and semi-tropics, where the Spanish mostly went, were a natural habitat for horses. The great plains of North America would have been different.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    , @utu
  331. utu says:
    @John Johnson

    “If you actually made a realistic show about the Vikings both alt-right and the left would be deeply offended. ” – Vikings could not utilize all the slaves they were capturing, so they were selling them. Who were they selling them to? Jewish and Arab slavers. Vikings decline coincides with Christianization and papal edicts prohibited human trafficking.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  332. PolarBear says:
    @John Johnson

    I don’t deny rape happened. I’m saying most the women enjoyed Viking men and came willingly. When a mans wife and daughters happily hop on a longboat with superior warriors, all the bitter man can do is whine they were raped and kidnapped. To be with a foreign man was rape and to leave with them was kidnapping in their eyes. Generally speaking: Swedes took the best women from Finland and East Slavic nations. Danes took the best women from England. Norwegians took the best Gaelic women. Vikings were given or conquered those lands like the women aswell. Vikings were far more advanced than the media portrays.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    , @Truth
  333. @Sparkon

    I have my doubts that they actually smelted copper (native copper was common in e.g. Coppermine River and White Pine) and it was always a status symbol not a tool, so strictly speaking … 😀

  334. @Commentator Mike

    That may be so but there were many different Indian tribes spread over the entire Americas and the Spaniards weren’t familiar with all of them.

    So which tribe are you suggesting had horses?

    We can look at tribes like the Utes and read their own stories about how horses changed everything.
    https://truewestmagazine.com/the-people-of-the-horse/

    I realize it contradicts what we are taught in movies and schools. Everyone is raised with this idealistic image of Indians roaming the plains with horses for thousands of years before the European arrival. It’s an idealistic image that speaks to our sense of freedom but it didn’t happen.

  335. @utu

    Vikings could not utilize all the slaves they were capturing, so they were selling them. Who were they selling them to? Jewish and Arab slavers. Vikings decline coincides with Christianization and papal edicts prohibited human trafficking.

    LOL only on Unz would someone try to minimize Viking slave raids for women by bringing in Jews and Arabs to the conversation. Do we really need to bring in some accounts of how brutal some of those raids were? Or how Vikings themselves talked about how they would get bored with farming and go on raids?

    What is next? Roman slavery was also caused by Jews? Cavemen that killed their neighbors and took their women were just selling them to Jews and Arabs?

    Thanks for the laugh, good stuff.

    • Replies: @utu
  336. utu says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Are you a Mormon? The horses in America is a Mormon thing. There are horses in America in their holy book that was dictated to Mr. Smith by Angel Moroni in Upstate NY.

    And then there is Yvette Collin and her Ph.D dissertation “The Relationship Between the Indigenous Peoples of the Americas and the Horse: Deconstructing a Eurocentric Myth”

    https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2019/07/pseudoarchaeological-claims-of-horses-in-the-americas/

    In her dissertation, Collin’s stated purpose is to “deconstruct the history of the horse in the Americas and its relationship with the Indigenous Peoples.” She seems to begin with a conclusion—that there is a “Western science” seeking to “disregard, purposefully exclude, and reconfigure” the traditional knowledge of Native Americans. Ultimately, she’d like to “reconstruct the history of the horse in the Americas in a way that is unbiased and accurate.”

    She mentions how historians record the introduction of horses to the Indians in the 1690s but there are Spanish records that document Indians using horses as early as 1521 in Georgia and the Carolinas. It turns out she’s citing Richard Thornton who is citing Pietro Martire (Peter Martyr) d’ Anghiera’s De Orbo Novo [The New World] (Martyr D’ Anghiera, 1912)?, written in 1530.

    And guess who is into horses? Steven E Jones. The same cold fusion Jones and nano-thermite Jones of 9/11 fame and a Mormon.

    A short critique of pre-Columbian horses as evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon
    https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/short-critique-horses-bom/

    A short critique of pre-Columbian horses as evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon
    https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/short-critique-horses-bom/

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  337. @Joseph Doaks

    The tale of Heinrich I is a cautionary one …
    as soon as the Magyars were halfway pacified (under Otto the Great)
    his glitzy knights became a pestilence in their own right 🙁

  338. PolarBear says:
    @John Johnson

    Most mixed offspring are not a product of masters fucking slaves. Women need a bit of freedom to really loosen up and spoil the victors.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  339. Vendetta says:

    Two further books to recommend that don’t shy away from the truth about the Indians or the savage nature of war on the frontier: The Heart of Everything That Is by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin, detailing the Sioux and the life of chief Red Cloud in particular, and Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne, on the Comanches.

  340. @John Johnson

    … it has become habit to regard the Germania as Gospel and neglect that Tacitus intended to crucify moral decay in Rome and not do ethnography;
    score one more for German romanticism 😀

  341. @utu

    Are you a Mormon?

    No.

    There are horses in America in their holy book that was dictated to Mr. Smith by Angel Moroni in Upstate NY.

    A Mormon did once gift me that book and try to get me interested but I couldn’t be bothered reading past the first couple of pages. Perhaps I should have to get better acquainted with their ideas but I considered them to be a kind of a sect and didn’t want to be dragged into their orbit.

    And then there is Yvette Collin and her Ph.D dissertation “The Relationship Between the Indigenous Peoples of the Americas and the Horse: Deconstructing a Eurocentric Myth”

    Yes I’m familiar with her and she is mentioned in the link I posted in #279.

    I don’t feel strongly either way but I’m glad I started this debate so that posters could present evidence and discuss the issue. I feel there is a lot we don’t know about pre-European America and considering the Millennial Revisionist on UR is questioning much of the far better documented classical and medieval European history, as are some other radical historians, I think that what we’re told about early American history could be even more open to question.

    • Replies: @utu
  342. utu says:
    @John Johnson

    LOL only on Unz would someone try to minimize Viking slave raids for women by bringing in Jews and Arabs to the conversation.

    Basic supply-demand equilibrium. Arabs were on the demand side while Vikings, Jewish Radhanite from Lyon as well as Jews from Spain and Crimea were on the supply side. Nothing here is being maximized or minimized. Just learn history and face the reality. The Church put stop to slavery by various Papal edicts and by Christianization of Northern and Eastern Europe that cut off he supply side. Then Reconquista of Spain completely eliminates the demand side from the Iberian Peninsula. And finally in 18th century Russia eliminated slavery centers in Crimea and the Northern coast of Black Sea.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  343. utu says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Millennial Revisionism is easy because there are documents. All you have to do is to claim that the documents are forgeries. Then there are political motivations behind Millennial Revisionism. Most of it is junk. Started by Russian and Soviet pseudo-historians under auspices of Lubyanka to shift the center of European civilization from the First Rome to the Third Rome and to sow confusion which always was Lubyanka’s primary interest.

    “I think that what we’re told about early American history could be even more open to question.” – But not about horses. Horses were not here.

    Perhaps you can have more luck deconstructing the first Thanksgiving? The turkeys were domesticated in Spain and brought by the Pilgrims to Plymouth. And if they had potatoes or tomatoes they also came via Spain.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Sparkon
  344. @PolarBear

    I don’t deny rape happened. I’m saying most the women enjoyed Viking men and came willingly. When a mans wife and daughters happily hop on a longboat with superior warriors, all the bitter man can do is whine they were raped and kidnapped.

    Totally ridiculous. Is that from the incel history of hypergamous women?

    The Vikings terrorized Christian coastal villages and the women did not get wet panties over those attacks.

    https://www.historyonthenet.com/vikings-as-raiders

    In 884, a monk in Arras in northern Flanders lamented:

    “The Norsemen continued to kill and take Christian people captive, destroy churches, tear down fortifications and burn towns. Along all the roads lay the bodies of clergy and laity, nobles and commoners, women, children and infants. There was no highway or village where the dead did not lie, and all were filled with torment and grief to see the devastation of the Christian people, driven to the point of extermination.”

    The Unz history here of “Vikings weren’t so bad” is almost as hilarious as “Hitler didn’t actually want to kill slavs”.

    I don’t have have White guilt over any of this and I don’t see the need to try and re-write history for political ideals. If anything the Vikings didn’t spread their genes far enough. The Brits today are a bunch of wimps that celebrate faggotry in their upper classes. WW2 dysgenics probably took out any remaining warrior stock.

    • Replies: @Alexandros
  345. @utu

    Basic supply-demand equilibrium. Arabs were on the demand side while Vikings, Jewish Radhanite from Lyon as well as Jews from Spain and Crimea were on the supply side. Nothing here is being maximized or minimized. Just learn history and face the reality.

    Yes Vikings traded with various groups.

    Do find a credible historian that would argue that even 5% of those slaves went to Jewish or Arab traders.

    The vast majority of raids were to coastal areas and then straight back to Viking lands with sex slaves.

    Or maybe you think that Nordic museums built by Nords that detail these routes are all part of some conspiracy. There was no slave route triangle as with Americas/Europe/Africa and there was no supply-demand equilibrium. They went and killed other Europeans and took their prettiest women because they wanted to. Jews and Arabs were not a factor.

    • Replies: @PolarBear
    , @Alden
  346. John Johnson: “Plato in fact created a detailed plan for how he would maximize equality through government management. He concluded that the only way to have equality in a nation-state was to lie to the people. Only the noble rulers would know the truth.”

    LOL. We’ve been through all this before. But you bailed and never explained how setting up a caste society in which the castes were unequal was “maximizing equality”.

    John Johnson: “[Plato] called this the Noble Lie and it is discussed in most philosophy 101 courses.”

    Did you flunk philosophy 101? You should have.

  347. Adûnâi says: • Website
    @John Johnson

    The Greeks might have been debating it, the Persians were putting the first idealist creed into practice.
    https://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/RPO_NewChrist/chap10.htm

    > ” So your typical politician is aware of this theory (and they support it with the lie of race not existing).”

    What’s about racist régimes such as Hitler’s Germany or Democratic Korea supplanting the language of the Westerners? For example, when the fascisti called their state socialist, or when the Koreans talk about female equality? Something along the lines of “true democracy is when gays are in prison”, clearly anti-American, trying to defang the American attractor. A Lie that serves racism, not an idealist Empire.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  348. @obwandiyag

    Technically correctly only because the “majority” of the population were South American Indians; Aztecan agriculture included hydroculture and was arguably superior to European forms of farming for yield(though not nutrition, as corn has processing difficulties).

    North American Indians were overwhelmingly hunter-gatherers with very basic agriculture.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
  349. @Daniel Chieh

    Wrong. I like how you use authoritative language like “technically” in defense of false facts.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  350. Poco says:
    @Davidoff

    Better quake in my boots. I’ve been called a racistly.

  351. @obwandiyag

    It should be plainly obvious that most concepts of American Indian is not the Aztec kingdom, regardless of centralized population numbers.

  352. Anonymous[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Plans Israel DID put in motion after conning the world per Shoah Business:

    Got the UK to hand the Tribe 55% of the Levant for Rothschild’s WWI loans.

    [MORE]

    Had Britain quash all efforts by native Arabs to form pre-state institutions…including an army.

    Got Brits to help invading Jews create militias, councils, etc.

    Convinced the UK to deny Palestinians representation at British hearings per the Levant.

    Smuggled arms illegally into Mandate Palestine (whining today when Hamas does the same).

    Funded Hamas to oppose Arafat’s peace-making.

    Backed Fatah to destroy Hamas so Gaza would be as cucked as the West Bank and quisling Abbashole.

    Used Jewish terrorist militias to kill/remove Arabish/Christianish natives from Deir Yassin, etc.

    Forbade terrorized Arabs from returning home while inviting Jews from around the world to make their home in Matzonia.

    Emulated WWII Germany: Zionazis claim Yahweh gave Jews ALL the Levant just like Nazis claimed Odin gave Aryans all Lebensraum.

    Considered multiple Jew homelands in Abyssinia, Alaska, Angola, Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Egypt, French Guiana, Guyana, Haiti, Japan, Madagascar, Surinam, Texas, Uganda, New York, and USSR. It chose the one guaranteed to cause trouble forever.

    Jews shit-stirred Rome, ending up butchering their own kids for coldcuts at the Masada Deli.

    Israel is now home to shit-stirrers who continue to blame “others” for the Tribe being bounced from 109 bars.

    Mosesians were repeatedly punished for pissing-off their own god, Señor El Yahweho. Yet even after being frog-marched for 40 years in the desert, they STILL refuse to play nice with others.

    Israel constantly omits that Arabs are Semites, too.

    It continues to pretend Judaism and Christianity are compatible.

    Claims it is “antisemitic” to criticize any evils Jews commit while antiteutonically demonizing all Germans.

    Illegally invaded what the UN planned to be the State of Palestine. It CONTINUES invading Gaza and the West Bank to steal more-more-more land.

    Jewistan ignores and and all laws, local or international, that it wants to. With impunity…while claiming to be law-abiding.

    It claims to be a democracy…like the DEMOCRATIC People’s Republic of Korea and the DEMOCRATIC “Jim Crow” South.

    Israel continues to holocaust Palestinians in broad daylight because, unlike the “hide-camps-in-woods-for-3-years” Reich, the Jewish State has had 72+ years to slow-cook “neo-judenish” Arabs.

    Nazis propagandized via showing THE ETERNAL JEW in movie-houses. Zionazis do the same by promoting the idea of THE INFERNAL ARAB.

    Thus far, Jews have shoah’d Arabs 6 times longer than the Third Reich roasted Tribalists.

    Israel would like to nuke Palestinians, stopped only from full holocausting by iPhones and the Internet.

    Jews brag about defeating “Seven Deadly Arab Armies.” In truth, the latter were disorganized, ill-armed, poorly led, and reluctant to fight. Having Ottoman-era blunderbusses, they only entered the fray because blood-thirsty Jews, after illegally entering land ear-marked for the State of Palestine, wouldn’t stop killing.

    Notably, cowardly Jews did NOT fight British-trained/armed/led Jordanians.

    Israel only attacks weaker others…often from afar…and ALWAYS by surprise. Like it did Egypt, which was no threat according to even retired IDF goons.

    When the IDF (Israeli Donkey Fellators) faced Hizbollah in 2006 it got its cowardly arse kicked.

    Israel also spies on and steals from the USA…selling America’s secrets to US enemies.

    Israel has nukes but doesn’t want Iran to have the same protection.

    Israel thinks Russian and China won’t act if Jews attack Iran. And that many huge missiles will finally fall on Haifa, Tel Aviv, etc.

    FACT: Nosestan hasn’t stopped causing trouble for 7 decades.

    America’s supposed “closest ally” never sends its cowards to die for GIs. Instead, it rents American soldiers to fight for it. In Iraq alone, Jew-prodded GIs murdered the equivalent of 11,000,000 US citizens based on lied.

    How would Americans react if invaded/occupied by a foreign power?

    https://tinyurl.com/yy7svx8p

    https://tinyurl.com/y59ua3nk

    America removed Iran’s democratically-elected leader in 1953, installing a Shah along with savage SAVAK killers.

    Iran has never attacked the USA. The USA has often attacked Iran, most recently by murdering Soleimani…after luring him to a supposed “secret peace-making rendezvous.” As always, cowardly Bibistanis were behind it.

    Promising in 1948 to set final borders and write a Constitution (making all citizens of Israel equal), it’s done neither for 72 years. Why? To continue stealing ALL of the Levant!

    Jews blew up the King David Hotel to “heal the world.”

    Israel murders US sailors and citizens with impunity.

    America is an Israeli colony.

    Israel is the 51st US state.

    Jewllywood makes zillions of Zionist hasbara movies. How many has it made about the Jew-foisted-horror, Al Nakba?

    Jews mooch billions from Uncle Sucker while controlling Congress by AIPAC-of-Liars, etc.

    Israel whines about the Holycaust to get endless guilt-gelt from goyim as it slowly shoahs Palestinians.

    It treats Gaza like Guernica, invading/killing at-will.

    It also treats Gazans like the Wehrmacht treated Jews during its 1943 “war” with Warsaw.

    Israel uses tanks, guided missiles, flechettes, white phosphorus, cluster-bombs, jets, warships, APCs, attack-helos, artillery, tanks, drones, etc. against a trapped people without equal weapons. Cowards! Zionazis! Violent, two-faced, evil-doing thugs!

    Brags about having the “most moral army in the world”– exactly how Himmler depicted the Heer at Posen.

    Like the Third Reich, the Fourth Reich (Israel) makes war while claiming to seek peace.

    Israel forbids the world from boycotting it despite Jews having boycotted 1933 Germany.

    It says it’s kosher to critique Israel’s crimes…then says it commits none.

    Jews act like “Good Germans,” empowering/enabling their toxic Mideast entity to continue expanding/killing.

    Jews claim to be superior, the smartest people in the world. Yet “somehow”…while numbering 6,000,000…they couldn’t escape death as Germany fought half the world (while losing!).

    Jews claim to be “learned.” They sniff about being logical, reasonable, and refined. They know it is “settled science” that the moon is a giant rock and the Earth round. Ergo, they don’t muzzle or imprison anyone claiming the former is made of green cheese or the latter round. Yet the same Jews lose their stool, forcing critics to lose their liberty, if the latter so much as question a scintilla of “proof” per the Holycaust. What are they afraid of?

    Where is the Jewish effort to erect monuments in every country for the Irish Potato Famine, Ukrainian Holomodor, Pol Pot killing fields, Mao’s victims, Stalin’s murdered, and the 17,000,000 butchered by Tamerlane when the Earth was far less populous?

    Zionists in 2021 claim they are the same Americans who “stole” Indian (feather, not dot) lands. However, the USA did that during the 17th-18th-19th centuries, pre-Geneva Conventions and Nuremberg Laws. America also made reservations sovereign nations, apologized, gave full citizenship to Native American, and offered affirmative action and other reparations (casinos!). It even named sport teams after tribes/braves. What have Jews done that’s comparable per Palestinians?

    Israel brags about being a colonial power in the 21st century, conning the world to pay for its ongoing crimes.

    The Jewish State also claims to be a First-World nation while mooching-mooching-mooching. It’s like hearing a 72-year-old man brag about never having worked a day in his life.

    Jews expect Others to be universalists, the Tribe remaining selfish/narcissistic.

    How do Jews think kids get treated when they enter school and brag about how “special” they are 24-7-365?

    Juden demand that Arabs recognize Israel as a Jewish State. Have Jews themselves ever recognized WWII Germany’s RIGHT to be an Aryan State?

    Israelis press Christianish nations to remove borders and welcome any and all strangers while insisting Israel stay a huge walled ghetto just for Jews…funded by goyim.

    Jews feel free to shoot peaceful protesters while whining about Lidice.

    Zionists hector the world to “never forget” about the Hollowcause, forbidding everyone to remember the Nakba, the Holocaust Jewish terrorists shoah’d on Palestinians.

    They also think they own the word “pogrom.”

    They pretend Jews never worked with Nazis…

    https://tinyurl.com/gmvhbcm

    …and ignore the US Army having used swastikas:

    https://tinyurl.com/yy572n92

    Furthermore, they pretend Zionists didn’t coerce goyim nations to DENY entry to Jewish immigrants in order to shunt the latter to the Levant.

    Jews constantly brag about being “chosen”…except at ye olde Umschlagplatz.

    Zionists want Jew-worshipping Holocaust museums everywhere, not memorials to the Holodomor (which killed twice as many Christians).

    They pretend Jews had nothing to do with Communism or its crimes (Andrei Chikatilo, Genrikh Yagoda, etc.) or central banksters…thus implying Hitler was insane to distrust Juden.

    Today Zionist pretend that Jews don’t control MSM or social giants (Google, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, etc.)…emulating Goebbels’ Ministry of Propaganda.

    Finally, Jews continue to pretend Mormons killed Jesus.

  353. Poco says:
    @Commentator Mike

    In Eastern Oklahoma, near the tiny town of Heavener, a stone monolith called the Heavener runestone exists. It has been enclosed and a little museum and park built around it.
    It is disputed as to its authenticity.

    Another small stone with purported runes was found near Shawnee Oklahoma. Again, there is argument as to its authenticity.
    The consensus of scientists is that they aren’t that old or aren’t actually runes.

    • Replies: @Johnny Walker Read
  354. What about the massacres in the Belgian Congo, Zaire, and finally named, The Democratic Republic of the Congo.

    4 million murdered.

    I wrote for an African-American (The Publisher Was From African) publication in New York City. I resigned because the Publisher was embezzling money; stealing from Holocaust survivors; etc.

    [MORE]

    After I left the newspaper, I received several e-mails about the Publisher’s father- civil war in which the father was the second highest official in the government.

    Only 300,00o Africans of a different ethnic group were murdered and the Publisher’s father and family had to leave Africa.

    The Publisher continues to condemn the dictator, who replaced his father and his father’s party.

    The Publisher’s wife was from Angola- and I only mention this because of an incident, which is mentioned below.

    So one night the Publisher and his wife went to a party at the Mission of Angola to the United Nations. There they met a diamond smuggler, who was smuggling diamonds, but not only conflict diamonds but also diamonds from Angola.

    The Diamond Smuggler gave the Publisher and his wife his business card.

    Of course I being a white fool, who had been wired by the FBI, pleaded with the Publisher and his wife to introduce me to the Diamond Smuggler.

    They refused despite my entreaties- begging really.

    The Publisher was afraid, they would come after him. He asked me if I were afraid. I replied no. (This was after the newspaper Publisher at his newspaper and I, at home, had received death threats for covering corruption on Wall Street.)

    The Publisher’s wife refused; she did not want to expose the corruption of Angola.

    Isabel dos Santos, the daughter of the former President of Angola , is Africa’s wealthiest women. Isabel dos Santos was involved in the diamond business, which lost money.

    The lesson: The Publisher and his wife were involved in embezzlement, tax fraud, defrauding Holocaust survivors; etc. They did not care about Africans being slaughtered- except to write columns about their friends and supporters.

    I hope that this gets published. I have omitted all names and references.

    Thank you.

    Edward Manfredonia
    wallstreetcrusader48.wordpress.com

  355. Truth says:
    @PolarBear

    “Yes, I’ll come to the forest with you, Sven… I..I…I…I just don’t understand; I watched you decapitate my father, Impale my brother, Seamus on a pike, cut out his bodily organs with a dagger and eat them, and sacrifice my mother Katie, to Odin on a burning pyre, but your biceps and that faint hint of lavender from the Norwegian Springwater bath you took last April make you…irresistible to me!”

    • LOL: John Johnson
    • Replies: @PolarBear
  356. Incitatus says:
    @Jimmy le Blanc

    ‘Black Robe’ loosely parallels Eustache Martin, the first French child born in New France (Notre-Dame de Québec baptism 24 Oct 1621). At 13 years of age he was chosen by Champlain learn Huron and become an interpreter. July 1634, he accompanied Jésuits to Huronia [Jean de Brébeuf]. He was abandoned by native companions in Nipissirinian territory, finally arrived in Huronia 19 September.

    The movie was filmed largely on the Saguenay (downstream from Québec). The actual route to Huron cantons ascended the St-Lawrence, the Ottawa, the Mattawa, Lac Nipissing, French River to Georgian Bay and Lake Huron.

    With older companion Dominique Scot, Eustache assisted instructing Huron children in Christian catechism. No longer mentioned after 1635, he probably died in Huronia before 1640 [‘Jésuit Relations’ vol 8].

    Eustache was the eldest child of maître-pilote Abraham Martin L’Écossais and Marguerite Langlois, on whose Québec land (‘Plains of Abraham’) Wolfe fought Montcalm 13 Sep 1759.

    “One point the film made: the Indians, especially the Iroquois, did not see the Europeans as a threat, but as a source of guns they could use to attack and enslave their historical enemies.”

    “Guns”? Iroquois depicted in the film were (true to history) consummate warriors/ritual torturers. Correct me if wrong, but weren’t Huron/French silently killed/captured by bows/arrows in the film?

    True native nations sought technology – Iroquois through Fort Orange/Albany, given on the understanding as proxies fighting the French. Don’t remember the Iroquois using an arquebus in the film. Champlain, in a war party with native allies, used one on Lac Champlain 1609 against the Iroquois, igniting a century of conflict. Talk about blowback.

    The Iroquois never forgot, never forgave. They exterminated Hurons, Eries, Andastes, Neutrals, the Tobacco, the Illinois (true to the happy lethal order of native relations before Europeans arrived) and – of course tried level best to kill the French. Supplied by Fort Albany, they were reliable English proxies (declared ‘English subjects’ by NY governor Thomas Dongan). The fur trade (dominated by the French) was in play.

    High point? Nighttime Lachine Massacre 5 Aug 1689. 1500 Mohawk warriors surprise 375 (civilian) habitants, the latter suffer up to 250 killed (some most barbarically).

    Things went south for the Iroquois after aligning with royalists 1775. Can’t be too careful.

    As for ‘post-Civil War Hollywood fairy tale ‘Dances with Wolves’ (230 years after ‘Black Robe’), what a crock.

  357. Loup-Bouc says:

    It was not a rebellion against Federal troops of men, but butchery of families, usually defenseless. War parties went from farm to farm, killing men, women, and children.

    No. The killings sought removal of “White” European invaders.

    Suppose somehow the Sioux traversed the Atlantic in the 17th century and invaded Europe and sought to “settle” there and, in the “settlement” process, displaced and killed many “White” (“indigenous”) Europeans. The “indigenous” (“White”) peoples would have slaughtered most or all of the invading Sioux settlers, even tortured many of them. [Mass murder and torture have been White European art-forms for many centuries.]

    You write well, Mr. Reed; and your above-average intelligence and education are apparent. But sometimes — like this time — your essays emit the malodor of a rotting corpse.

    True: Even before “Whites” invaded, sometimes Sioux killed or tortured members of other indigenous American tribes — even tortured themselves (with the Sundance). Sometimes other indigenous American tribes’ members killed or tortured Sioux or members of still other indigenous American tribes. But that history cannot excuse the “White” Europeans invaders’ vicious near-annihilation of indigenous Americans or theft of indigenous Americans’ lands or destruction of much of their food-resources.

  358. @Loup-Bouc

    The Siberians did not own any land. They were primitive nomads whose event horizon was until sundown.

    No one stole anything from the Siberians, not did anyone near annihilate any Siberians. Your post is a pack of lies, from start to finish.

    • Agree: Mike Tre
    • Thanks: ivan
  359. The impenetrably woke and the hyperpatriotic will insist respectively that these things didn’t happen,

    The more astute will glean the gem of wisdom that when one tangles with savages long enough, one becomes the savage himself. These European settlers were first shocked by the barbarity of the aboriginal savages. After finding your umpteenth white family gutted, small children disemboweled, one tends to lose his humanity in responding to the savages..

  360. @Stonehands

    “The warrior -now more than ever- saw his woman as his property and the generation gap and wife buying put romantic, sexual love outside of marriage, creating new problems”

    For the majority of human history and for the majority of cultures romance was not one of the reasons for marriage. Even chivalry was something Europe learned from Islamic culture during the Crusades.

    Until maybe 100-150 odd years ago – most marriages took place by arrangement or a match maker. In the cases where it wasn’t it usually consisted of a man approaching to the father of a young woman and asking if he could “court” her (change the term based on the society). Conversation wasn’t long… Job? How many children? yes or no?

    Also – each of the Native American societies were different. Commanches weren’t the only society.

  361. @cranc

    You claimed the injuns’ bloodthirsty behavior was caused by their experience with Europeans:

    I think by that point (mid 19th century) any semblence of nobility within Native American cultures had been hollowed out by events over the previous 200 or so years. They were at the Khmer Rouge stage by then, driven to a kind of insanity – the roots of which lay in eveyone regardless of their cultural origin.

    Once I demonstrated they had been engaged in such behavior prior to meeting Europeans, the debate was over; you had been proven wrong. If you don’t understand that European behavior is irrelevant to the argument, that is evidence of an inability to think logically. The same goes for others who replied in a similar way.

    All that having been said, Europeans are solely responsible for the abolition of things like slavery, public executions, judicial torture, etc. To the extent non-Whites have followed suit, it’s due to White influence.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    , @cranc
  362. @Loup-Bouc

    If Europeans “stole” land from the Sioux, then the Sioux “stole” it from other injuns. They had only been in the Dakotas for 70 years when Europeans got there. I assume you didn’t know that and that your post is a reflection of your ignorance. But if you did know, then it’s a reflection of your non-White supremacy, which is to say, you think non-Whites were allowed to compete for the land but Whites weren’t.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  363. anon[100] • Disclaimer says:

    Can someone here who has “some college history” answer my ignorant questions?

    …In the Kurt Russell Western BONE TOMAHAWK the Apache professor is contemptuous to the cannibal tribe of Paleo-Indians whom the Apache had already killed off mostly point is DIDN’T LATER ARRIVALS FROM SIBERIA OR MONGOLIA KILL EARLIER PALEO-INDIANS IN LATER WAVES FROM ASIA???

    Wasn’t genocide taking place in North America previous to the arrival of Europeans when later more advanced Asian tribes from later waves of migrants killed earlier Paleo-Indian tribes?

    Didn’t the Inuit arrive in Northern Canada from Asia & begin to battle Native Americans in the subarctic?

    …Wouldn’t the Native women who went to Iceland have probably been traded by the Native tribes themselves? Probably for a few Viking crossbows & bronze shields (Which apparently the Natives desired).

    …The Micmac Native American woman who was part of the founding population of Iceland was evidently pregnant when she got off the long boat in Iceland. Was she raped or did she accompany a Viking warrior consensually or was it arranged by her tribe in exchange for Bronze weapons the Natives apparently wanted from the Norse.

    …We know that the Vikings taught the Native Americans Lacrosse. How did this occur?

    …The Vikings themselves wrote that there was a procession of Irish monks on the beach of Newfoundland when they arrived & the Vikings did not believe they were first. How did Irish monks find Newfoundland? We know that Irish monks were in Iceland prior to the Norse. Why? How did Irish monks become seafarers?

    …In response to UTU, if upper-class Catholic nobleman males are ideal colonial settlers as oppose to Yeoman Protestants than why is Latin America awful? Why did the USA fare better? Or Canada?

  364. @Ray Caruso

    Once I demonstrated they had been engaged in such behavior prior to meeting Europeans, the debate was over; you had been proven wrong. If you don’t understand that European behavior is irrelevant to the argument, that is evidence of an inability to think logically. The same goes for others who replied in a similar way.

    Don’t get too upset.

    This type of egalitarian historical revisionism where Europeans are always to blame for native immorality never holds up. The noble savage model only works when you can lock out critical viewpoints.

    How far would they take this? What about the Mayans? Are we going to put all the evidence of widespread torture back into the ground?

    Liberals and other assorted egalitarians have taken their delusional anti-White ideology to the point where they *want to believe* that Whites are the source of all evil in not only the present but also the past. Not going to work on the internet but they keep trying.

  365. @PolarBear

    Most mixed offspring are not a product of masters fucking slaves. Women need a bit of freedom to really loosen up and spoil the victors.

    Yea I’m sure the coastal European women were really loosened up by seeing children needless killed by Vikings.

    Really gets the ladies in the mood for new husbands.

    • Replies: @PolarBear
    , @nokangaroos
  366. @Adûnâi

    What’s about racist régimes such as Hitler’s Germany or Democratic Korea supplanting the language of the Westerners? For example, when the fascisti called their state socialist, or when the Koreans talk about female equality?

    Well I find it strange that communist countries would call themselves democratic when Marx called for a dictatorship. Why not take pride in following Marx? Call it the German Proletariat Dictatorship.

    National Socialism was a clever trick play against international socialism. Too bad Hitler exploited and ruined the whole thing because it was a better way of dealing with the left than traditional conservatism. He didn’t invent it and in fact gave zero credit to the German genius that did.

    Something along the lines of “true democracy is when gays are in prison”, clearly anti-American, trying to defang the American attractor. A Lie that serves racism, not an idealist Empire.

    Yea well that kind of speaks to the age old problem of democracy becoming two wolves and a sheep voting on who gets eaten. You establish rights and then anti-state elements take advantage of them. So sheep bring in more sheep and the wolves wonder why they were such rubes about it all.

  367. Anonymous[454] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    Think your off on that one the first potatoes came from South America as did other foods that the tribes traded back and forth and of course you had the wild turkeys in America which without a doubt they may have had for Thanksgiving if one was really held at all seeing much of the early history was more wish than fact. After all we do have to spice it up to make it more salable to a gullible public.!!

    • Replies: @utu
  368. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Ray Caruso

    (1)

    Learn to READ. I wrote exactly this:

    The killings sought removal of “White” European invaders.

    * * *

    True: Even before “Whites” invaded, sometimes Sioux killed or tortured members of other indigenous American tribes — even tortured themselves (with the Sundance). Sometimes other indigenous American tribes’ members killed or tortured Sioux or members of still other indigenous American tribes. But that history cannot excuse the “White” Europeans invaders’ vicious near-annihilation of indigenous Americans or theft of indigenous Americans’ lands or destruction of much of their food-resources.

    My first and last sentences addressed “White” European vicious aggression wrought against ALL indigenous Americans. not only Sioux.

    (2)

    The Sioux populated the middle and near-north Mississippi valley (around Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa) for centuries before “White” Europeans invaded that area. Because of violent pressures imposed by Iroquois and Algonquin (especially Ojibwe) tribes, the Sioux migrated north to the western Great Lakes region (Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, southwest Ontario). Those migrations occurred over very substantial time, mostly before any “White” Europeans explored those areas.

    Mid-17th-century “White” European trappers or explorers reported they “discovered” Sioux inhabiting the area of “the source of the Mississippi.” Around that time and for more than a half-century before, increasing intertribal (Iroquois, Algonquin, and Sioux) hostilities induced many Sioux to migrate westward, first to the area now the Dakotas, then also to areas now northern Wyoming and eastern Montana. But those migrations, too, happened before “White” Europeans began invading those areas.

    Like the apparently moronic Genrick Yagoda [who cannot distinguish Sioux from Siberians 9see comment # 372, January 5, 2021 at 1:23 am GMT)], you suffer belief that the entire human race must submit to European ideas of property. Genrick Yagoda asserts that “Siberians” [meaning Sioux???] were nomads who did not “own” land. But human history knows many NATIONS [Mongol, Turkmen, Sámi, Bedouin, Khoikhoi, Massai…….] that were not stationary though associated clearly with their distinctive cultures and the lands of their regular nomadic movements.

    The Shoshonee, the Kiowa, and the Crow respected the Sioux lands’ boundaries, which they crossed only when (infrequently) they were prepared to battle the Sioux or their Cheyenne allies. But the western “Plains Indian” tribes did not endeavor to take other tribes’ common nomadic lands or dislocate whole other tribes. Mostly they trespassed to steal horses or women or for counting coups. [I do not mean to justify their trespasses, but only to observe their trespasses’ transience and relative inconsequence.]

    You appear to think that no “savage” people may claim a land-area they inhabit less than a century before “White” Europeans invade:

    They [Sioux] had only been in the Dakotas for 70 years when Europeans got there.

    Again, you expose your presumptuous belief that all humanity must submit to European ideas of property — as if the “Doctrine of Discovery” can be used only by Christian Europeans, not by other peoples Europeans seek to displace or annihilate on the premise of that Doctrine.

    [MORE]

    But even European/American law recognizes a rule of prior appropriation (used much, but not only, in water law and mining law): a land-resource’s (even a chattel’s) first appropriator has prior right, a property superior to the claim of any later person seeking to appropriate the same resource. The prior appropriation rule applies even if the prior appropriation occurs a day, or even a minute, before the later would-be appropriator seeks to claim the same resource. Such rule would favor the Sioux despite they were present “only” 70 years before “White” Europeans invaded.

    The “Doctrine of Discovery” — a Pope-supported doctrine of Spanish and Portugese conquistadors — held that “savage” American indigenous peoples were not human, but lower animals, for purpose of the Doctrine — so that when the Spanish or Portugese “discovered” land populated by such “savages,” the Spanish or Portugese obtained a “right” of control and disposition of every animate or inanimate thing of the “discovered” land, every thing including the “savages” living there.

    “Manifest Destiny” was a kindred doctrine used by the “White” Europeans who invaded North America and slaughtered and displaced North America’s indigenous tribes. That doctrine’s reasoning was that victorious conquest proved right, as if it proved that divine will ordained the conqueror’s land-grab. How like Yahweh’s rule that Jews, Yahweh’s “Chosen People,” conquer all that shall be their “Promised Land” and kill every man, woman, child, and beast of the conquered people— for Yahweh made the Jews his “Chosen People.”

    The matter is not what European/American law might hold respecting whether this or that American land-region was owned by or belonged to any indigenous tribe. The matter is that indigenous tribes had lived on America’s land and depended on the that land — for centuries before the first “White” European touched any inch of it — even long before a pre-Columbian Viking landed on a coast of Labrador. The indigenous tribes fought each other sometimes. But apparently none annihilated any other and mostly they coexisted with each other and with the rest of America’s living things.

    (3)

    You wrote:

    …it’s a reflection of your non-White supremacy, which is to say, you think non-Whites were allowed to compete for the land but Whites weren’t.

    I feel no love of indigenous Americans, “White” Europeans, Jews, Blacks, Asians, Polynesians, or any other division of humanity. I am nearly a misanthrope, and my near-misanthropy is universal — does not favor any “race,” sex, or creed over any other. But I cannot avoid recognizing that during the past circa 2400 years, “White” Europeans have been the most arrogant of human strains.

    Still, I appreciate greatly some of humanity’s rather few harmless achievements — e.g., pre-17th-century Chinese math, science, engineering; Ai Ki Do and Tai Chi Chuan; Tao Te Ching; gothic cathedrals of France, Cologne, and Milan; the unbearably beautiful music of Johann Sebastian Bach; the paintings of Jan van Eyke, Pieter Bruegel, William Blake, and Hieronymus Bosch; set theory, symbolic logic, Boolean algebra; the linguistics (or “semiotic analysis”) of Derrida.

    But I prefer the company of the Border Collie who graces my life with her loyalty, love, innocence, and verve. She is a wonder greater than the sum of humanity’s achievements.

    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
  369. anon[208] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Posted elsewhere:

    “Reading actual accounts and diaries of the day is quite revealing.

    Indian Genocide is a myth. It was always the policy of the US to integrate them peacefully or provide reservations. In fact, the vast majority of Indians quickly left their tribes to intermarry with the Whites, leaving the most stupidly traditional or criminal element to stay in the tribes by and large–their words. By the time the US came into existence most Indians were intermarried or living among Whites. Entire tribes except for the die-hards deserted to attend free colleges and set up farms or shops with White spouses, who prized their bravery and knowledge of the land. Many if not most US citizens have most Indian ancestors from those days. So who is the ‘real’ Indian?

    Indian vast land being stolen is a myth. Most of the continent had very few people, despite the wild inflation of numbers by far-left scholars or preening Conquistadores exaggerating their victories. The land was generally empty. The Indians who had not already joined the Whites were happy to sign quitclaims for land they never farmed.

    Wars against the Indians is a myth. The attacks were from criminal gangs and tribes often denounced by other Indians, like the Comanches, or tribes of the Indian criminal remnant–their words–that fought to enslave people and joined the South, with predictable results. What the US had was a giant policing problem to bring actual democracy to the small remainder that had not married with Whites in the tribes that were dysfunctional, and stopping the gangster Indian tribal socialists starting trouble and attacking other tribes to salvage their declining totalitarian rule.

    Stolen Indian land is a myth. Libertarians are the Bill of Rights and protect the process people, and one thing they know how to do is work the courts and get rights expanded and abuses corrected. After the Libertarians got into the act, the many treaty violations were quickly corrected–or even more quickly settled, when it was discovered that THE INDIANS HAD FAILED TO RATIFY MOST OF THE TREATIES. Many Indian reservations also adopted Libertarian deregulation ideas from their new buddies and became rich. There is a reason many vote Libertarian Party and want nothing to do with the far-left agitators that have brought them nothing. As one Indian leader said to me, they learned to stop waiting for a socialist handout–and start investing and if necessary suing.

    This is the truth: There’re more fairly ‘pureblood’ Indians in both North and South America, and especially in the US thanks to Libertarians giving them guidance on treaty enforcement and getting rid of bad government regulations, than ever being far wealthier, literate, freer, peaceful, and with more land ( 4 million control land larger than England or Georgia–and not counting non-reservation land and private investments) that they actually and productively control than any time since likely Julius Caesar. Their incomes are higher than most of the ‘middle class’ across the globe.

    As Russell Means said in a talk that I attended, he came to realize the reservation Indians never had it so good but, as he was, were often brainwashed by far-left and ‘democratic’ socialist infiltrators into hatred, division, and ineffective habits–and those socialists were the descendants of those who had exploited many Indians in the first place in many cases. Add the many Indian bloodlines intermarried with Whites creating 10’s of millions of Indian descendants, and this is–again in the words of Russell Means, former Indian communist turned Libertarian– the greatest era ever of Indian history. When Whites, Blacks, Indians and their joint descendants–The American Race–partner they’re unbeatable.

    When they allow themselves to be divided by their common enemies, they open the door for their common enemies. My two cents.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @anon
  370. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    Yes, it’s possible but it is also possible that the domesticated turkeys were brought from England just as they were brought several years earlier to Jamestown. North American Indians did not domesticate turkeys. They did not have potatoes from S. America. Possibly they had groundnut potatoes that were pretty much forgotten except for Japan where they are grown.

    I brought this up only to point to the area with a room for revisions of official history and myths as opposed to the existence of horses where there is no room for revisions.

  371. PolarBear says:
    @Truth

    Vikings weren’t cannibals like the Blacks in Africa.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
    , @Truth
  372. PolarBear says:
    @John Johnson

    It’s basic knowledge that the Vikings weren’t a bunch of rapists that needlessly murdered everybody. It happened but they were also major traders and founded major cities like Dublin for example.

  373. @John Johnson

    First off, Christian witnesses are not to be trusted. The Christian Authorities are basically the CNN of their times.

    Secondly, the Norse men were in their full right to exact vengeance on the Christians. The Viking raids were a direct response to Christian atrocities and tyranny.

    Normally the Vikings were relatively peaceful traders. But if forced through circumstance, droughts, floods, or as vengeance, they could also go on raiding parties. It is an insult to compare those men to the dregs of the world who followed the Christian banner of Jewish insanity.

  374. PolarBear says:
    @John Johnson

    Likely a big factor in why the (((media))) portrays Vikings as savage, Jews didn’t even get 5% of the slaves!

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  375. Sparkon says:
    @utu

    Perhaps you can have more luck deconstructing the first Thanksgiving? The turkeys were domesticated in Spain and brought by the Pilgrims to Plymouth.

    North American Indians did not domesticate turkeys.

    I don’t know who here is arguing that the N. American natives “domesticated” turkeys, but there are certainly Wild Turkeys, Meleagris gallopavo, in N. America, and they were domesticated south of the Rio Grande.

    In the early 1500s, European explorers brought home Wild Turkeys from Mexico, where native people had domesticated the birds centuries earlier. Turkeys quickly became popular on European menus thanks to their large size and rich taste from their diet of wild nuts. Later, when English colonists settled on the Atlantic Coast, they brought domesticated turkeys with them.

    — Cornell Lab of Ornithology

    I suppose you and others here may have failed to appreciate the excerpt I gave from the De Gannes Memoir, above, where the author described some hunts of the Illinois:

    These little hunts are ordinarily for bucks, bears, and young turkeys, on which they feast, not failing to invite the strangers whom they have among them (a very frequent thing), such as Miami, Ottawa, Potawatomi, Kickapoo, and others…

    So, not only were the Illinois hunting and feasting on buffalo, deer, bears, and “young turkeys,” among many other dishes on their menu, but also they were sharing their largesse with individuals of several neighboring tribes, including some with whom at various times the Illinois were said to be “at war.”

    In addition to the Miami, Ottawa, Potawatomi, and Kickapoo visitors to the buffalo hunting camp of the Illinois, I will suggest the Osage, Missouri, Shawnee, and Quapaw are also likely to have been among the tribes visiting with and paying respects to the Illini, a powerful tribe at the time who sat at the center of an extensive native trading network centered near the confluence of the Illinois, Missouri, and Ohio rivers with the mighty Mississippi, and that brings me to the Peace Pipe, or Calumet.

    During his travels down the Mississippi River in 1673, Father Jacques Marquette documented the universal respect that the ceremonial pipe was shown among all Native peoples he encountered, even those at war with each other. He claimed that presenting the pipe during battle would halt the fighting. The Illinois people gave Marquette such a pipe as a gift to ensure his safe travel through the interior of the land.

    The ceremonial tradition of the Calumet seems to have spread from the south with the Illini receiving it originally from the Osage.

    Peace Pipe or not, the Illini had a host of enemies who coveted the rich Illinois country, especially the Iroquois, but also the Fox, Sioux, Sauk, Winnebago, Kickapoo, Potawatomi, Chickashaw and others, and of course the Calumet was no defense at all against Smallpox, which was probably the main nemesis of all the Woodland tribes, and the single agent most responsible for their decline and virtual disappearance from the face of the Earth.

    By the time Illinois became a state in 1818, the once powerful Illini had been reduced to a few hundred individuals who shuffled off first to Kansas and then to Oklahoma, where their descendants remain today.

  376. @PolarBear

    The Vikings were savage and I don’t see why you guys are trying to downplay this.
    https://sciencenordic.com/forskningno-society–culture-sweden/vikings-abused-and-beheaded-their-slaves/1435805

    If anything White people need more savages. Too many White men are domesticated wimps.

    • Replies: @PolarBear
  377. PolarBear says:
    @John Johnson

    They could be savage but they were much more than savage.

  378. vegob says:

    if some people came and raped my women and children and burned my crops and murdered everyone in our villages, i would do a hell of lot worse then they did. just sayin

  379. vegob says:

    i wouldnt stop tourturing and killing whites until i was safe in my own lands.

    • Troll: GeneralRipper
  380. vegob says:

    the indians were far too civil and narrow in thier actions. i wouldnt have left a white soul in north america.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  381. IS says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    “All native Americans came from Siberia. DNA shows this to be the case.”

    So what, Comrade Yagoda? They most certainly came earlier than the Europeans from… ahem… Europe, and Those Whose Lives Matter, from Africa.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Genrick Yagoda
  382. Avery says:
    @IS

    { They most certainly came earlier….}

    Correct: about 50,000 to 10,000 years ago (….by current estimates).

    { came ……. from Africa.}

    Well, they didn’t really ‘came’: they were brought here involuntarily, by force, in chains.

    • Replies: @GeneralRipper
  383. @vegob

    The problem was that whites had superior war technology so the fate of the Indians was sealed. You can’t fight against guns and cannons with bows and arrows. I don’t know what they could have done. They certainly couldn’t trust those who spoke with forked tongues making promises they didn’t intend to keep.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
  384. @IS

    What does whether they came earlier have to do with anything? The Siberians had just as much opportunity to create a country out of the wilderness as Europeans, but the Siberians were too primitive, too violent, and too stone age to do so.

    Too bad, so sad.

    @ Sparkon

    Father Jacques Marquette documented the universal respect that the ceremonial pipe was shown among all Native peoples he encountered, even those at war with each other. He claimed that presenting the pipe during battle would halt the fighting

    C’mon, that’s ridiculous. You don’t actually believe that, do you?

    Too bad no one told Custer.

    @ vegob

    QUOTE if some people came and raped my women and children and burned my crops and murdered everyone in our villages, i would do a hell of lot worse then they did. just sayin END QUOTE

    You’re right, we probably should have wiped out the Siberians when they behave in such savagery.

    • Agree: GeneralRipper
    • Replies: @Sparkon
  385. vegob says:

    native americans i think are actually asians that became modified over time. i have heard of the Clovis people, but i dont think we realy know if they ever ranged outside of new mexico, arizona.

    i read, that the iroguois nation had democracy way back in the 16 hundreds, and their confedercy actualy shaped our consittuion. so i doubt all indians were as primitive as this guy says, sure some where, good for them, but some werent, and the whites didnt give a fuck anyway, god chose christians to populate these lands, Manifest Destiny, god manifested it. hahahaha yet more chritian bulshit. can you feel the love. https://www.fieldmuseum.org/blog/democracy-and-iroquois-constitution

    we’re still doing it, look at palestine.

    while i also say, the whites have done a lot of good in this world, thanks for that, but regarding the indians, the whites where the savages. it had been so long since they had rampaged through europe raping and killing each other in the 100 years war or the 30 years war or etc……. the christian vampires needed another dose of blood.

  386. @Avery

    Well, they didn’t really ‘came’: they were brought here involuntarily, by force, in chains.

    Booo fuckin’ hooo!

    Best thing that ever happened to niggers was slavery. Otherwise they’d still be killing and eating each other in the Dark Continent.

    Oh, hold on! They still are…lol

  387. @PolarBear

    Were there not this little thing with Loki and the half-done woman´s heart 😛

  388. Truth says:
    @PolarBear

    This is what is known as a “false equivalency.”

    One would more logically say, “The Whites in Europe weren’t cannibals like the blacks in Africa,” as each represents one tribe.

    But this would be false.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/3/druids-sacrifice-cannibalism/

    • Replies: @PolarBear
  389. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    My work-obligations deny me spare time enough to proofread the following text. I type badly. I apologize for any typing error that may mar the following text.

    ========

    Your source’s evidence is mightily insufficient proof of the origins of many, perhaps most, indigenous Americans.

    One problem is that the evidence depends upon genome sequencing of only 34 individuals who lived in Siberia. That “evidence” does not account for, among else, the clear fact that American aborigines spoke numerous languages unrelated to any tongues spoken in northern Siberia, languages closer to Manchu, Japonic/Ryukyuan, Indochinese, and even Polynesian.

    Much evidence indicates that Mesoamerican and South American aborigines originated elsewhere. See, e.g.,
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/pre-Columbian-civilizations/Early-Formative-period-1500-900-bce

    [MORE]

    The time of the first peopling of Mesoamerica remains a puzzle, as it does for that of the New World in general. Until recently it was widely accepted that groups of peoples entered the hemisphere from northeastern Siberia, perhaps by a land bridge that then existed, at some time in the Late Pleistocene, or Ice Age. But radiocarbon dating and other relatively recent tools have complicated the story. Perhaps they entered the West Coast from the sea at multiple points. There is abundant evidence that, at least by 11,000 BCE, hunting peoples had occupied most of the New World south of the glacial ice cap covering northern North America. These peoples hunted such large grazing mammals as mammoth, mastodon, horse, and camel, armed with spears to which were attached finely made, bifacially chipped points of stone. Finds in Mesoamerica, however, confirm the existence of a “prebifacial-point horizon,” a stage known to have existed elsewhere in the Americas, and suggest that it is of very great age. In 1967 archaeologists working at the site of Tlapacoya, southeast of Mexico City, uncovered a well-made blade of obsidian associated with a radiocarbon date of about 21,000 BCE. Near Puebla, Mexico, excavations in the Valsequillo region revealed cultural remains of human groups that were hunting mammoth and other extinct animals, along with unifacially worked points, scrapers, perforators, burins, and knives. A date of about 21,800 BCE has been suggested for the Valsequillo finds.

    More substantial information on Late Pleistocene occupations of Mesoamerica comes from excavations near Tepexpan, northeast of Mexico City. The excavated skeletons of two mammoths showed that these beasts had been killed with spears fitted with lancelike stone points and had been butchered on the spot. A possible date of about 8000 BCE has been suggested for the two mammoth kills. In the same geologic layer as the slaughtered mammoths was found a human skeleton; this Tepexpan “man” has been shown to be female and rather a typical American Indian of modern form. While the association with the mammoths was first questioned, fluorine tests have proved them to be contemporary.

    The environment of these earliest Mesoamericans was quite different from that existing today, for volcanoes were then extremely active, covering thousands of square miles with ashes. Temperatures were substantially lower, and local glaciers formed on the highest peaks. Conditions were ideal for the large herds of grazing mammals that roamed Mesoamerica, especially in the highland valleys, much of which consisted of cool, wet grasslands not unlike the plains of the northern United States. All of this changed around 7000 BCE, when worldwide temperatures rose and the great ice sheets of northern latitudes began their final retreat. This brought to an end the successful hunting way of life that had been followed by Mesoamericans, although humans probably also played a role in bringing about the extinction of the large game animals.

    AND
    page 89 et seq. of https://wpscc.pearsoncmg.com/wps/media/objects/3135/3211162/Stearns5e_IM.pdf
    among other statements, these:

    I. Origins of American Societies.
    Theory of migration from Asia via land bridge
    c. 20,000 B.C.E.-8000 B.C.E.
    Recent evidence, occupation from 40,000 B.C.E.-skeletons similar to Caucasians, Polynesians, Australasians
    A. The Ancient Hunters.
    Early hunters spread through Americas by 11,000 B.C.E. small groups little specialization
    B. The Question of Outside Contacts
    Similarities with Asian art Isolated development most likely creates weaknesses at time of contact with Old World

    North American aborigines included more than few tribes whose languages, cultures, and anatomies were much akin to Mesoamerican physical attributes, ways-of-life, and tongues. Examples include the Anasazi (ancient cliff-dwellers), Hopi, Zuni, Navajo, and Apache.

    Your source shows fatal signs of attempting to prove a 19th Century assumption of American aborigine origi rather than investigate with unbiased questions. That 19th assumtion derived much from the thinking and work of Alexander von Humboldt, whose conclusions have been at least strongly questoned and at lest very arguably submitted to substantial disproof. See, e.g.,, https://researchrepository.wvu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2228&context=etd
    That source concludes this:

    For various reasons, scientific and non-scientific, these scientists oppose recognition of the Bering Strait Theory, while others discover new forms of evidence to counter or discredit its validity. Recent discoveries, such as Mesa Verde in Chile, have generated enough doubt to question its validity as a scientific origin theory, or enough opposing evidence to lead to another paradigm shift to eliminate it altogether as a viable origin theory. The controversy rages in the scientific and nonscientific communities about a theory created and refined by Humboldt that may already have been a theory in its day, which solved the problems of the day. Meanwhile, varied proposals about origins from other sources surface once more, but no single definitive theory, supported by firm empirical evidence, has arisen to take its place as the main theory of American Indian origins.

    At is core and floor, north-Siberia-origin “research” fails because it seeks to prove a scientifically weak assumption, rather than attempt to falsify it. “Falsify”? I refer to an aspect of Karl Popper’s philosophy of science. See, e.g.,
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/criterion-of-falsifiability
    AND
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/ [that source starting at its heading “2. Backdrop to his Thought”]

    I do not mean that Karl Popper’s regime is sufficient. One trouble is the question of who shall falsify the falsification or the falsification of the falsification [etc.]. But Poppers’s regime must be part of the dialectic of every scientific investigation, otherwise investigation cannot be valid or reliable. Your source’s investigation fails the test of adequate scientific dialectics.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  390. Sparkon says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    C’mon, that’s ridiculous. You don’t actually believe that, do you?

    More argument by assertion, where you present no factual counterargument at all. Zip. Zero. Zilch. You’ve got nothing but hot air.

    Fr. Marquette is hardly the only source attesting to the power of the Calumet, but to appreciate how the Calumet fit into the traditional cultures and beliefs of the native peoples requires not only knowledge but also some measure of objectivity, and you seem to have neither.

    Too bad no one told Custer.

    Too bad Custer didn’t have a Calumet, too bad he was wearing a U.S. uniform, and too bad most of all, he didn’t keep his promise:

    As late as the 1920s, elderly Cheyennes said that two southern Cheyenne women had come upon the body of Custer. He had been shot in the head and in the side. They recognized Custer from the Battle of the Washita in 1868, and had seen him up close the following spring when he had come to make peace with Stone Forehead and smoked with the chiefs in the lodge of the Arrow Keeper. There Custer had promised never again to fight the Cheyennes, and Stone Forehead, to hold him to his promise, had emptied the ashes from the pipe onto Custer’s boots while the general, all unknowing, sat directly beneath the Sacred Arrows that pledged him to tell the truth.

    It was said that these two women were relatives of Mo-nah-se-tah, a Cheyenne girl whose father Custer’s men had killed at the Washita. Many believed that Mo-nah-se-tah had been Custer’s lover for a time.

    Now the southern Cheyenne women took their awls and pushed them deep into the ears of the man they believed to be Custer. He had not listened to Stone Forehead, they said. He had broken his promise not to fight the Cheyenne anymore. Now, they said, his hearing would be improved.

    [edited]

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-battle-of-little-bighorn-was-won-63880188/

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
  391. Anon[389] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Agent76

    Who gives a shit?
    Pardom my French but I don’t give a shit. Whites conquered. Deal with it.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  392. @Lost American

    My Dad was a steel erector in Liverpool after the late unpleasantness with the Hun.
    I don’t recall him mentioning any Injuns.

  393. Truiop says:

    Honestly, the Romans should have exterminated the barbarian tribes of Northern and western Europe, these primitive savage tribes would lead to the death of their mighty empire.

    I see so many parallels today, the death of western civilization in North America and Europe will come from barbarian tribes of Africa and Americas.

  394. @Poco

    And who the F:ck are these so called “scientist”?

    • Agree: Poco
    • Replies: @Poco
  395. And from a time Fred could not/would not forget….

  396. @Sparkon

    I didn’t “argue” or “assert anything. So therefore the rest of your mewling is typical non responsive garbage.

    I asked if you believe such preposterous nonsense, and clearly you do. Remember these are the same savages who could not be restrained by their French Allies when they slaughtered scalped and ATE 1,500 British men, women and children who had surrendered their weapons to the French.

    You are seriously so daft that you believe that if only the British had a magic Calumet the Siberians would have put down their weapons in the middle of their murderous frenzy?

    Are you certain you are on the right forum?

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @Sparkon
  397. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    …they slaughtered scalped and ATE 1,500 British men, women and children who had surrendered their weapons to the French.

    Prove your assertion with valid, reliable evidence, not either your bare assertion or junk-references like the one you cited in your comment # 148, January 2, 2021 at 6:46 pm GMT. See my comment # # 404, January 5, 2021 at 10:21 pm GMT.

    Oh, and as I showed in an earlier comment, zero valid, reliable evidence proves that indigenous Americans were “Siberians.” Comment # 404, January 5, 2021 at 10:21 pm GMT.

    Also, the Sioux and other Mississippi valley tribes were not nomadic until they migrated to the Dakotas and the east of Colorado, Wyoming and Montana. Until that westward migration, the Yancton and Teton Sioux were agrarian. Other Sioux were non-nomadic hunter-gatherers. See, e.g.,
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sioux
    AND
    https://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/lakota.htm

    Several eastern U.S. tribes, too, were non-nomadic, e.g., Cherokee and Seminole. In the U.S. southwest, the Anasazi, Hopi, Zuni, and Navajo were non-nomadic; and likely they, the Apache, and near-all Mesoamerican aborigines and all South American tribes, did not migrate from Siberia. See my comment # # 404, January 5, 2021 at 10:21 pm GMT.

  398. PolarBear says:
    @Truth

    Druids weren’t Vikings. No one knows for certain Druids even ate the marrow, they’re just guessing. Black African cannibalism recent and well attested.

    • Replies: @Truth
  399. @nokangaroos

    ‘…beati sunt possidentes does not magically no longer apply to invaders, looters and rapists just because it´s your turn..

    Au Contraire. I’d say the moral to be drawn from the fate of our victims is pretty clear.

    Don’t give in, don’t try to come to an understanding, don’t try to be fair.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
    • Replies: @Poco
  400. @Loup-Bouc

    ‘Several eastern U.S. tribes, too, were non-nomadic, e.g., Cherokee and Seminole. In the U.S. southwest, the Anasazi, Hopi, Zuni, and Navajo were non-nomadic; and likely they, the Apache, and near-all Mesoamerican aborigines and all South American tribes, did not migrate from Siberia. ‘

    Oh fuck. You’ve just proven that the Franks have always lived in France. After all, everyone knows the French aren’t nomadic. Q.E.D…

    Did it ever occur to you that just like the Europeans, American Indians did not live in some sort of statis, pending Columbus’ arrival? Their societies evolved, changed, moved — just like everyone else’s. Sedentary Cherokee in the seventeenth century tells us exactly one thing — by the seventeenth century, Cherokee were sedentary.

    • Agree: Genrick Yagoda
    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  401. Poco says:
    @Johnny Walker Read

    I don’t think they are necessarily scientists. Linguists and supposed experts in the viking script.
    An interesting thing is that they say the script found in Oklahoma is from a runic era that predates the vikings. So, Scandinavian but before the vikings! This “proves” they are forgeries.

    The theory is that a 19th century scandy immigrant, familiar with the archaic script of circa 100 to 700 a.d., came to Oklahoma and carved the runes.
    Seems strange to me too.

  402. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Colin Wright

    If you are trying to make a point, you have succeeded only in creating mystery.

    Equally mysterious are: (a) Exactly what of my earlier comments’ contents your comment imagines it seeks to question or attack? (b) Whether you apprehend what my earlier comments dispute (what of the comments of Genrick Yagoda and Ray Caruso).

    Are you suffering a strange neuro-psychic disorder one might describe as convergence of dementia, ego-degeneration, threatened narcissism, and errant-aggression syndrome?

    And, too, I must wonder what valid, reliable evidence could support your implied proposition that early the Cherokee were nomadic but later became “sedentary.” You offer no evidence, only bare assertion.

    You have my pity, sir.

  403. Poco says:
    @Colin Wright

    Exactly. What the hell is wrong with these morons. They say invaders stole the land and killed the people so we’re supposed to say, “oh well, if that’s the case, we’ll now accept an invasion so we can be killed.”
    They’re idiots.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
  404. @animalogic

    Nietzsche was a degenerate man

    • Replies: @animalogic
  405. @Loup-Bouc

    The incident was the siege of Fort Henry. That is all I have to say to you. If you want to argue with DNA, go argue with someone else.

  406. @Anon

    And will you say the same when whites become a small minority and are replaced by the immigrant invaders? That’s what they’ll be saying to whites and probably already are as they feel the future belongs to them.

  407. Sparkon says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    I didn’t “argue” or “assert anything.

    Sure you did; you just don’t know the terminology. You wrote:

    C’mon, that’s ridiculous

    That’s an assertion.

    C’mon, that’s ridiculous. You don’t actually believe that, do you?

    That’s an argument.

    It’s also an argument by assertion because you presented no facts to support it, just hot air.

    Take a course in Logic.

  408. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    So, you offer more bare assertions, zero valid, reliable evidence, even zero arguably competent proof of any kind or degree. And you do not identify which siege of Fort Henry you reference, the 1757 siege, the 1777 siege, or the 1782 siege.

    According to all the legitimate, competent evidence-supported histories I have read, in the 1777 siege of Fort Henry, the indigenous fighters burned structures and killed livestock, but nothing more, other than to participate in the battle, in which each side did much wounding and killing of the other side. In the 1782 siege, the indigenous fighters did essentially the same property damage, and wounded and killed people, just about much as the opposing side did.

    In the 1757 siege (an event of the so-called “French and Indian War”), the indigenous fighters did kill and scalp British men, women, and children. But zero evidence indicates that the indigenous fighters ate even one human. The total British injury, casualty, and capture number (not just the kill number) has been estimated to have been in the range 200 to 1,500. The British missing-and-dead tally has been estimated as 69 to 184 — not more than 7.5% of the about 2,300 British who surrendered, near all of whom survived.

    See, e.g., Ian K. Steele, Betrayals: Fort William Henry & the “Massacre,” (New York: Oxford University Press 1990), ISBN 978-0-19-505893-2. OCLC 20098712. Most historians deem Steele the best authority respecting the 1757 siege.

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
  409. Future Belongs to Them

    Yes, except they are stupid. Let us be honest. Their IQ is about 90. Their civilizations are not even half-assed, they are full-fledged failed disasters.

    How long are going Birmingham and Bradford going to actually last without a white government backing their play? In the US, where people are more individualistic, you get Newark or Detroit.

    Also, there is no love lost between say, Afro-Caribbean & South Asians. We see the same thing in LA between minority groups there. During riots, the Koreans simply start blasting the blacks who seem less capable of actual organized warfare.

    All through BLM riots, we heard the dreaded fear that the rioters & looters might actually venture into suburbs or exurbs. They didn’t, because they know full well that in a game of rural guerilla warfare they’d be wiped out in a nanosecond.

    If they get ahold of the government, they can trash a country that way.

    If you look at Latin America, it is basically the story of what Europeans do when they are surrounded by Indians. Which they are to this day.

    Whites in the US, who always had further places to flee, generally don’t battle minorities. They simply move out, and then a city collapses in a putrid miasma of crack-smoking mayors, teen children with six kids, crime, crack cocaine addiction, street prostitution, infrastructural decay, Banana republicanism.

    East Asians & Jews function better of course, but they merchant races disinclined to produce anything.

    White women, when their seemingly inherent tendencies towards exhibition & sluttery are suppressed, make an effective auxiliary. Pakistani women do not. How long could a Pakistani woman in England survive in the Welsh mountains? Black women scream when they see a squirrel.

    Maybe, just maybe, they could take the UK. But the US. Nah. Once the power went off in the cities, that would be it, they would be done.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
    , @Alden
  410. @Commentator Mike

    The problem was that whites had superior war technology so the fate of the Indians was sealed. You can’t fight against guns and cannons with bows and arrows. I don’t know what they could have done. They certainly couldn’t trust those who spoke with forked tongues making promises they didn’t intend to keep.

    Well they weren’t a united front as seen by the fact that various tribes would align with competing sides during colony wars. So weapon technology was only part of the problem.

    There were in fact some very bizarre battles where the French with one tribe were fighting against the British with another tribe. I remember reading about a battle where the French used Indians to stealth attack in the night and then came in afterwards with troops to clean up any survivors.

    Far too un-PC to speak of public schools.

    American Indians had longstanding feuds with neighboring tribes. Of course the Whites played those feuds to their advantage. Why wouldn’t they?

    Then there were tribes like the Cherokee that genuinely liked Whites and wanted to learn from them. But their story is truly a sham with the trail of tears.

  411. Meant to say that the Cherokee story is a shame, not sham.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  412. @Genrick Yagoda

    Never mind the historical past. Just look at Abu Ghraib prison, a jail devoted to extreme tortures for the perverse satisfaction of degenerate American soldiers. I’d qualify those tortures as savage and barbaric. And the photos we were shown were just a few that Bush, who was himself horrified, allowed into the media, and there were far worse. So when the tables are turned and the Arabs start dishing it out what can you expect? Hate breeds hate and revenge well just breeds more revenge. And who can tell who started it all and when?

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
  413. cranc says:
    @Ray Caruso

    You claimed the injuns’ bloodthirsty behavior was caused by their experience with Europeans

    No, not solely. I said that ‘events’ had brought out a kind of insanity – one seen in many instances in many cultures around the world throughout history. I made the point that all peoples are susceptible to such insanity, if circumstances are considered. If White genocide continues or accelerates on the North American continent, we might see it again – from a different cultural group, who knows? When everything that you know and everything that grants meaning to your existence is being taken away before your very eyes, there really is no length that you will not go to try and stop that process. For the Native Americans this was the land.
    Were the ‘Injuns’ bloodthirsty?
    Yes. All humans have this thirst for blood to one degree or another, it is part of our condition. The Native Americans didn’t become bloodthirsty because of the actions of the European settlers, but the latter’s actions exacerbated traits held in check by the former’s pre-Columban society.
    As for the closing points, slavery seems alive and well, torture too. White civilisation has brought many good things to many cultures around the world, I would grant that. It has taken away too.
    I don’t subscribe to this manechian way of looking at race. The trend for demonising Whites is absurd and basically evil. However, it is mirrored by an equally absurd reflex that says that Whites have been unquestionably brilliant and benevolent. They haven’t.
    That is my take for the sake of clarity.

  414. Anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    The open and forthright theft of a presidential election, 2020/11/03, has made the posting of anon[208] , https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4385262 , not only credible but likely. It is obvious that the US population (and the Western population) has been massively lied to, “gaslighted” in the 2020 political vocabulary, about pretty much everything, and that the gaslighting was motivated by hatred, hatred being the natural emotional response to a mortal threat to one’s self or one’s family. That is, the people driving the gaslighting believe that they can survive, or the Whites and Western Industrial Society can survive, but not both.

    The obvious hatred of Loup-Bouc in https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4385197 doesn’t look like a call for repentance anymore, it looks like a call for White genocide, an end to Western industrial society and quite possibly for Whites.

    Amazing how things have changed over the past year (2020). And the past year is just a running start for 2021.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
    , @Loup-Bouc
  415. @Loup-Bouc

    Loup-y;

    The French refused to fight alongside the Siberians after the siege of Fort William Henry. The Siberians ATE people before and after the siege, which was one of several reasons the French refused to fight alongside of them. The Siberians also attacked and murdered the disarmed British, and murdered, scalped and robbed the people in the infirmary, which is how they managed to bring smallpox back to their camp and kill 80-% of their fellow Siberians.

    I don’t have to “see” anything, certainly not your declaration of what is or is not an authority. And since your post confirms the number I previously reported, this will be my last communication with you. I find you to be completely addled, a Borat style writer who first states they I don’t have any evidence, confirms I do, and then still claims I don’t have any evidence.

    You profess to be a lawyer? Good God!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  416. @Jeff Stryker

    Jeff,

    In general I agree, but they’ll have enough high IQ whites and Jews, as well as some of their own higher IQ individuals to keep things running along. Of course standards would drop and it would be a slow slide into something like a Brazilian or Mexican society but it wouldn’t be a complete collapse. And those whites who want to get away would just live in their own gated communities or even in almost exclusively white towns like those in southern Brazil around Puerto Alegre or those German towns in Paraguay, Chile, etc. Maybe eventually immigration would also slow down as not many want to emigrate to Brazil or Mexico, or they may even institute tougher immigration laws once they start approaching third word tier just like most Third World countries have. Once those immigrants have brought most of their family members over they may want to keep more immigrants from coming and anyway there will be a sufficient pool of cheap labour in-country so even the elites and corporations may by then go along with tougher immigration laws.

    I think that you yourself may have mentioned such a scenario in past comments and that it is unlikely that white only states would be formed and break away from the union. Otherwise some kind of balkanisation with pure ethic and mixed ethnic states could be possible, either peaceful or as a result of civil wars, but I think this is unlikely, despite what many hard-core nationalists (WNs, La Razza, Black nationalists) would prefer. I personally would prefer the latter, including some multiethnic multicultural states for those that get along and don’t wish to live in ethnically pure states – the US is big enough to accommodate all such preferences.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Truth
  417. @Commentator Mike

    So you think staking a man out on the prairies and lighting fires first at one foot, then the other, then the hand, then the other hand, keeping the victim alive for days so the Siberians could delight in the man pleading with his captors to kill him is the same thing as waterboarding?

    I don’t know how to respond to that. I don’t think anyone could.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Commentator Mike
  418. utu says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    Crime And Punishment In Elizabethan England
    https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/crime-and-punishment-elizabethan-england

    Heretics were burned to death at the stake. Traitors were hanged for a short period and cut down while they were still alive. They were then disemboweled and their intestines were thrown into a fire or a pot of boiling water. Next, their arms and legs were cut off. Finally, they were beheaded. Their heads were mounted on big poles outside the city gates as a warning of the penalty for treason. Convicted traitors who were of noble birth were usually executed in less undignified ways; they were either hanged until completely dead before being drawn and quartered, or they were beheaded. Executions took place in public and drew huge crowds. Indeed, public executions were considered an important way of demonstrating the authority of the state, for witnesses could watch justice carried out according to the letter of the law.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Genrick Yagoda
  419. Vlodec says:

    Oh Fred. Name me one atrocity that has not been perpetrated by white anglo-saxons, or anyone else for that matter. You’re not talking about injuns, you’re talking about the entire human race.

  420. Anon[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    OT for you:

    Didier Raoult evaluates 2020, including HCQ research. At minute 10, he explains that many scientific papers are against HCQ due to conflict of interest w Gilead. When conflict present, the researcher will be 73% against HCQ and 100% for remdesivir. Where there is no conflict of interest present, the researcher is 83% FOR HCQ.

    Anyway, my better half and I got Covid. Timely Ivermectin is not a silver bullet but it is much better —being antiviral— to to take it than to do nothing. We had no pulmonary complications but he got some very nasty stomach and knee problems, go figure. I ended up doing homeopathic anti-inflammatory treatment, and anti inflammation enzymes that were a godsend. For the next covid mutations, I definitely will consider HCQ, even though my internist has “evolved” away from HCQ. The Italian regulatory body has recently ruled a doctor cannot be prosecuted for giving compassionate use of HCQ. Several respectable doctors are arguing for it (Risch from Yale, Derwand in Germany), tho perhaps you are better able than I to check their credentials. It’s a mad world.

  421. @Loup-Bouc

    Boy-who-cries-wolf, this has nothing to do with (((Popper))).
    All knowledge is preliminary, and science (like Tagore´s bridge or, let´s face it, DNA) resists change.
    Beringian is the default hypothesis because the recent stock are Mongolid
    (mongolian spot, alcohol intolerance) while the indisputed pC contacts
    (Viking in the Northeast, Polynesian in the Southwest) are not – you do not need DNA for that.
    I find the “coastal” and multiple waves more plausible than the “corridor”, but either way the prospects of “proof” are zilch (rising sea level and denudation respectively).

    – The Solutréen hypothesis has been somewhat devalued by precursors (?) in Southeast Siberia; besides it does not address pre-Clovis.
    – We do not know jack about the Anasazi, except they had wacky architecture and pottery (= paleo-hippies?), grew mamaliga and were exterminated preColumbially with a certain enthusiasm.
    – Celtic tombs in New England, Phoenician coins and runestones are not obligatory articles of faith.
    – The Na-Dene languages (Navajo etc.) are an ancient problem – they are neither North- nor South-Amerind and have no correspondent nearer than China s.l. but the DNA is unremarkable; before the Cali coast there are several “Chinese stone anchors” (also not obligatory) of indeterminate age.
    – We do not know jack about the La Venta (“Olmecs”) either – do you wish to insinuate they were Afro-Atlanteans?

    The only hope is more data points – but praise NAGPRA this is out of the question in the US; I do not think the abos stand in the way of science because they want to hide something – it is pure (and understandable) spite.

    And scientific curiosity aside, obsessing over who-was-there-first is the mark of those who would rape toddlers because they have small pipis 😛

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  422. @Genrick Yagoda

    Several hundreds of years apart probably much the same as there is supposed to have been some progress in how people treat each other.

    There was a lot more going on in Abu Ghraib than waterboarding as everybody who has seen the pictures knows. There was continual repeated torture and abuse of the vilest kind going on for ages. I don’t know what to say if you think that is how one should treat POWs fighting for their own country on their own territory against vicious invaders who crossed half way around the world to occupy them on fake evidence such as Colin Powell’s vial of white powder at the UN. And don’t forget that Iraq never threatened the US and that Anthrax in envelopes following 911 was posted in the US by Americans and not by Iraqi agents. If you approve of all that then I’m the one who should be speechless.

    But anyway I presume that you think it is wrong that foreign immigrants should be invading the US and Europe and that it would be right to resist them, and maybe even that it is wrong that Jews should be occupying and stealing Palestinian lands, yet you don’t wish to recognise that other peoples also have the right to resist invaders, occupiers and land grabbers. I find that unprincipled and inconsistent. The fine details of how they resist and exact revenge for wrongs done to them that is cultural and well … just details. Of course I don’t approve of the treatments meted out by the Indians that you mentioned but that was their way (barbaric and savage as you mention) and that is what one would expect knowing their culture. It doesn’t imply that blowing up people, napalming them or nuking them from the air in humongous numbers is any less savage or barbaric if you happen to be on the ground to see the results. Not all are killed instantly and many more are maimed and could be dying painfully and slowly for a long time from burns, severed limbs, open wounds and internal injuries while waiting to be attended to, if first aid even ever reaches them. Sounds like torture to me.

    So maybe you don’t think that civilised people should try to improve the way they conduct wars to make the treatment of the enemy more humane (I admit war and “humane” don’t go well together and could be contradictory), and especially if fighting against primitives with far inferior weaponry. Perhaps you think: just pick a side and anything goes – well that’s what the Indians did and they lost. I hope the whites fare better in their fight to defend what’s their own.

  423. Truth says:
    @Commentator Mike

    In general I agree, but they’ll have enough high IQ whites and Jews

    That’s kind of the problem, isn’t it?

    But wait, they did give you 5,000 channels of TeeVee.

  424. @John Johnson

    Well actually bears, lions and Africans do it all the time.
    The Evolutionary Psychologists even argue feminism evolved (as it must at some time have been adaptive) as a kind of single-mothers-against-infanticide.

  425. Truth says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I personally would prefer the latter,

    My Friend, you are not getting it.

    It is not what you would prefer that matters; it is what your owners prefer…

  426. Read about Colonel William Crawford, who near the end of the American Revolutionary War of Independence, was captured by American Indians, who tortured him and executed him by burning him at the stake – – – SLOWLY.

    The vivid description was given by a doctor who managed to escape.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Crawford_%28soldier%29

    I tried to copy and paste the color paintings of Colonel William Crawford and of the American Indians torturing him, but I was unsuccessful.

    Anyway, the pictures to which I refer are included in the URL posted above.

  427. Anonymous[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Genrick Yagoda

    The French refused to fight alongside the Siberians after the siege of Fort William Henry. The Siberians ATE people before and after the siege, which was one of several reasons the French refused to fight alongside of them. The Siberians also attacked and murdered the disarmed British, and murdered, scalped and robbed the people in the infirmary, which is how they managed to bring smallpox back to their camp and kill 80-% of their fellow Siberians.

    Yep. Can’t blame the French. I’d imagine that many of the French troops came down with PTSD and became combat ineffective. There are limits.

    See: John F. Ross,

    War on the Run

    , for a description of the war from the American side. Ross’s book follows the career of Rogers, of Roger’s Rangers fame, mentioning the Fort William Henry affair as an event in Roger’s career.
    Ross says that the smallpox infection came from Indians (your term “Siberians”) digging up the bodies of soldiers who had died from Smallpox several weeks previously in order to take their clothes, which were quite valuable to the Indians.

    • Replies: @Genrick Yagoda
  428. @Truth

    Of course, I did mention that what I prefer is unlikely as is much of what others propose in their postings. So far, yes, the government has got us under their heel but history is full of examples of their overthrow.

  429. PolarBear says:
    @Truth

    There’s no proof of Druid cannibalism. It’s wishful thinking, like Cheddar Man being charcoal briquette.

    • Replies: @Truth
  430. @utu

    And? I’m not sure what is your point? Sure that was cruel. It’s not the same thing as capturing a guy working in his field and torturing him for amusement for days on end until there is nothing left torture.

    Besides, if they brought back public torture and execution for some crimes there would be a lot less of them. I am all for hanging blacks and seeing their guts spill out on the ground when they rape white women, like that one black did who then brought his friends to see what he thought was a corpse claiming she was at fault, “because of slavery”.

  431. @Truth

    And of course the best would be to have an exclusively LGBT state, two or three and ban them from recruiting, propagating and adopting elsewhere but allow all those so inclined to resettle there. But yeah, who am I to decide? – they want the world!

  432. @Anonymous

    Ross says that the smallpox infection came from Indians (your term “Siberians”) digging up the bodies of soldiers who had died from Smallpox several weeks previously in order to take their clothes, which were quite valuable to the Indians.

    That is exactly correct, but he left out that they also took scalps both from those in the infirmary and recently buried. Those scalps contained live smallpox in a host medium that would permit the smallpox to thrive, as compared to clothing where variola is likely to die in a short period, particularly when exposed to sunlight.

    @Commentator Mike.

    Of course I disagree with the torture that occurred by US troops, and almost everything else about that stupid war for Israel.

    But as I stated, at Abu Ghraib the intent was never to kill anyone with waterboarding. That is a completely different level of humanity than torturing people to death for amusement. The Siberians considered it Disneyland if they could get a live capture to torture.

  433. Truth says:
    @PolarBear

    Well technically, there is no “proof” we went to the moon either.

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/blood-eagle

    • Replies: @Alexandros
  434. Loup-Bouc says:
    @nokangaroos

    Your comment is much puffy gibberish and quasi-sound-bites pretending to reflect intelligent knowledge. Deconstructing its flaws would consume time greater than either it deserves or my work permits me to spend.

  435. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Anonymous

    The obvious hatred of Loup-Bouc in https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4385197 doesn’t look like a call for repentance anymore, it looks like a call for White genocide, an end to Western industrial society and quite possibly for Whites.

    You misread my comment. My comment did not embrace, suggest, pursue, or abide “White genocide” or reflect or counsel either repentance or its absence or denial: such considerations were foreign to my comment’s concerns. Perhaps my following text will help you to apprehend the sense of that comment’s language to which likely you refer. You wrote:

    The open and forthright theft of a presidential election, 2020/11/03, has made the posting of anon[208] , https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4385262 , not only credible but likely.

    Your statement’s diction and syntax render its point adumbrant. I shall risk guessing that you expect the 2020 election shenanigans have produced a political environment disastrous for the sane members of the “White” European population of the U.S. — as if Fred Reed’s ignoble “savages” have become U.S. Blacks, the “Antifa,” “The Squad” and their groupies and Pelosi/Schumer/Biden/Harris Democrats and their puppeteers among “The Elite” and their hypnotized common-folk acolytes and the “woke” media, academics, and economists.

    To feel painful regret and depression, perhaps even fear, vis-a-vis the results of the 2020 election, one need not either idealize or contemn the any pre-20th-century indigenous Americans. One need not idealize or contemn “White” Europeans or “White” European culture, philosophy, or law, or even “White” European genomes.

    The true trouble is not the conduct of superliberated Blacks, BLM, “Antifa,” “woke” fools and the rest of the idiocies of the idiot majority of the U.S. population. The true trouble is rampant and fast-growing oppression and repression, even of the Democrat-politician puppets of the real rulers of the U.S.

    [MORE]

    I cannot recall feeling depressed more than I do, now, because apparently Biden and Harris will be the nation’s top executives and Democrats will run Congress. I shall not be amazed (but indescribably angry) if, as is not unlikely, for the rest of our lives, my truly good wife, and I, shall
    * be muzzled linguistically
    * forced to stand masked in lines to shop for food
    * forced to suffer junk-medicine and to submit to vaccinations (or be jailed for resisting)
    * suffer great want of sources of valid, reliable information
    * suffer witnessing increasing enhancement of oft-violent manifest U.S. foreign policy
    * suffer the dyseconomic effects of open borders and increasing creation of funny-money
    * forced to endure imposition of Black non-culture culture and the every-day disastrous effects of rampaging anti-merit “affirmative action” accorded to Blacks, illegal-immigrant Hispanics, homosxexuals, bi-sexuals, tanssexuals, trangenders, and no-genders

    I am a “White” European male human. I do not appreciate the prospect that before I die my social status will parallel the economic worth of toxic sludge.

    I do not hate, or blame, Blacks (though I dislike Black non-culture culture). I do not hate or blame illegal immigrant Hispanics or Asians……..or even Jews who believe they are Yahweh’s “Chosen”……or Democrats (despite I voted twice for Trump) or……….

    I blame two intensely depressing realities: (1) Most Americans are either (a) stupid or (b) maleducated (formally and informally). (2) Largely, humanity is a pathologically greed-driven, psychopathic species. I do not use the term “greed” to denote only a craving of economic wealth. I use the term to denote a craving of power, “superior” position, fame, glory, sexual exploitation, unearned advantage……….

    In my comment # 383, January 5, 2021 at 12:25 pm GMT (which your comment references), I wrote:

    I feel no love of indigenous Americans, “White” Europeans, Jews, Blacks, Asians, Polynesians, or any other division of humanity. I am nearly a misanthrope, and my near-misanthropy is universal — does not favor any “race,” sex, or creed over any other. But…“White” Europeans have been the most arrogant of human strains.

    Still, I appreciate greatly some of humanity’s rather few harmless achievements — e.g., pre-17th-century Chinese math, science, engineering; Ai Ki Do and Tai Chi Chuan; Tao Te Ching; gothic cathedrals of France, Cologne, and Milan; the unbearably beautiful music of Johann Sebastian Bach; the paintings of Jan van Eyke, Pieter Bruegel, William Blake, and Hieronymus Bosch; set theory, symbolic logic, Boolean algebra; the linguistics (or “semiotic analysis”) of Derrida.

    But I prefer the company of the Border Collie who graces my life with her loyalty, love, innocence, and verve. She is a wonder greater than the sum of humanity’s achievements.

    That language’s second paragraph referenced Tao Te Ching, which fits well here:

    TAO TE CHING, CHAPTER 38

    A truly good man does not apprehend his goodness, and SO is good.
    A foolish man tries to be good, and SO is NOT good.

    A truly good man does nothing, yet leaves nothing undone.
    A foolish man is always busy, yet finishes little, leaves much unattended.

    When a truly good man does something, all is complete.
    When a just man does something, he leaves much needing to be begun.
    When a disciplinarian acts and no one responds,
    he grinds his teeth and tries to enforce order.

    When Tao is lost, goodness does not exist.
    When goodness is lost, kindness begins.
    When kindness is lost, justice begins.
    When justice is lost, ritual begins.
    Ritual seeks illusion of virtue — and spawns bewilderment

    Prescience is a gaudy sham of Tao.
    Prescience whelps folly.

    Being great is being truly good, a beast, who dwells on reality
    — the fruit, not the flower.
    The truly good accepts the fruit — ignores the flower.

    [My translation, in parts much like Gia-fu Feng’s translation, https://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu38.html . In one aspect, Gia-fu Feng’s translation differs markedly from mine. He writes “Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness” where I write “When Tao is lost, goodness does not exist.”]

    Tao is not God or divine spirit or “intelligent design” or “the order of the universe” of any other such idea of any religion, formal, informal, or purely personal. It is not even the Hindu or Buddhist concept of “the Absolute.” Tao truly is indescribable, unlabellable. But perhaps I do not defile Tao by suggesting that “Tao is the nature of what is its nature.”

    • Replies: @GeneralRipper
  436. Jett Rucker says: • Website
    @The Soft Parade

    Can’t register Disagree because I haven’t commented enough lately.

  437. Jett Rucker says: • Website
    @Kratoklastes

    Can’t register Agree because I haven’t commented enough lately.

  438. 1RW says:
    @Getaclue

    Above is a pic of what a very small fraction of industrial mass murder in south east Asia looked like

  439. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Anonymous

    Correction of the first sentence of the final paragraph of my comment of January 6, 2021 at 10:30 pm GMT (comment # 451), https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4388171 — which sentence is this:

    Tao is not God or divine spirit or “intelligent design” or “the order of the universe” of any other such idea of any religion, formal, informal, or purely personal.

    In the phrase

    “the order of the universe” of any other such idea

    the second “of” ought to be “or.” So, that sentence ought to be:

    Tao is not God or divine spirit or “intelligent design” or “the order of the universe” or any other such idea of any religion, formal, informal, or purely personal.

    Sorry.

  440. @Loup-Bouc

    Shut the fuck up, bullshiting lawyer.

    Go back to Hungary, or better yet, move to West Baltimore.

  441. @Hang All Text Drivers

    But Europeans used to do that to each other in Europe before they ever got to the western hemisphere… So how are Native Americans worse???

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  442. @showmethereal

    It’s pointless arguing about who was a worse torturer. All peoples everywhere at some point practiced torture. The Chinese were especially imaginative in applying slow torturous death. Vlad Tepes, the national hero of Romania, used to impale tens of thousands of Muslim POWs at a time, skewered alive like pigs and left to die slowly on stakes, in defense of Europe and Christendom from the Ottomans who used the same method on Christian prisoners. Just read up on this, used by many different cultures over time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement

    So what is this entire debate all about: I don’t like your methods of torture and murder but prefer mine?

  443. Cack says:

    I Love it when Fred bursts bubbles!

  444. Sparkon says:
    @Sparkon

    Getting back to nutrition and the Natives of the First People, here’s some intriguing information that iconoclasts and advocates of a balanced diet will enjoy, others not so much:

    Modern-day anthropologists Richard Steckel of Ohio State and Joseph Prince of the University of Tennessee discovered some data collected in the late 1800s by the “father of anthropology,” Franz Boas. Boas had studied Native lifestyles and recorded measurements of 1,123 native men in eight equestrian Plains tribes. His findings: all the tribes were taller than white men, and some were substantially taller.


    European and Iroqouis men, date unknown

    Boas found that average heights ranged from the Cheyenne at 5’10”, Sioux at 5’8″ to the Comanche at 5’6″, the same as the average White man. In 1740, French recruits averaged 5’2″.

    The unsigned article from Notes from the Frontier blog cites several very tall Indian chiefs, like the Shawnee Tecumseh, described as “a giant in stature,” Nez Perce Chief Joseph standing 6’3″, and Lakota chief Touch the Clouds who was 6’9″.

    Lieutenant Henry R. Lemly, who met Touch the Clouds in 1877, described him as a Minneconjou “of magnificent physique, standing even in his moccasins, and without an ounce of surplus flesh, weighing 280 pounds.”

    Steckel argues that the Plains Indians were tall because they ate a varied diet rich in meat and plants, among other factors.

    The Plains Indian lifestyle was extremely healthy: fresh air (not the horrific pollution of Victorian urban areas), clean water, and basically a paleo diet—high in protein, such as buffalo, venison, prairie grouse, and fish, vegetables, especially legumes, berries, nuts and seeds. And they led very active lives: both children and adults got lots of exercise and worked hard to subsist.

    I don’t know if the diet of the Plains Indians, and others, would qualify as “balanced,” but it certainly was varied and did not consist solely of meat. Additionally, there was an extensive trading network among the Indians that survived longer on the Great Plains than in the east. The nomadic Comanche traded buffalo furs and meat, receiving agricultural products from the more sedentary Wichita.

    As the photograph of the Iroquois man shows, it was not only the Plains Indians who were tall, and by the time Boas did his work in the late 1800s, most tribes were in decline. Some formerly powerful tribes like the Illini were living on reservations, and had been for decades, so the entire fabric of the pre-contact trading networks had already been ripped to pieces, and many of the Eastern Woodland tribes had disappeared entirely.

    What is ironic is that, by the time Boas studied Native tribes, they had already been decimated by disease and subjugated to the horrific conditions of reservation life. But they had still maintained some cultural habits. It is likely that, had Boas studied Native Americans 100 years before, their heights would have been even greater.

    But the Inuit, who survived in the brutal glacial conditions of northern Alaska and subsisted on whale blubber, fish, caribou, and bird eggs with nary a vegetable or fruit, averaged 5’4”.

    [edited]

    https://www.notesfromthefrontier.com/post/standing-tall-1800s-native-americans-were-tallest-in-the-world

    • Replies: @Ray Caruso
    , @Avery
    , @glib
  445. rob smith says:

    In which Canadian Natives welcomed the first refugees from Europe:

    ” Once they had landed, they lit fires, planted stakes in the ground, burned five Frenchmen, roasted six children, and grilled some others on the coals and ate them.”

    https://www.cbc.ca/history/EPCONTENTSE1EP3CH1PA4LE.html

    • Thanks: Genrick Yagoda
    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  446. @rob smith

    It just shows how persistent refugees and immigrants can be. When the flood gates are opened it’s hard to keep them away even with such scary warnings.

  447. I’ve read accounts from Dutch settlers in North America, detailing their experiences with friendly Indians. The friendly Indians existed much like the Africans did in the separate accounts of Dutch merchants and slave traders in the same century; in a state of sub-human barbarism. The men were good at killing, yes, and the women seemed to do the majority of the laboring. White captives were “transmuted” to replace fallen braves, meaning they were kept as slaves, unless they were brutally murdered. Most Indians lacked written history, productive industry and basic sympathy. The ones that didn’t shrewdly deal with the white settlers fought like hell to control their territories, and ultimately lost – thank God. In the meantime, they terrorized whites settlers. Stupid/evil Hollywood anti-white sentimentalism has captivated the popular imagination of Americans, and when they see the descendants of those defeated tribes, themselves ignorant of history, they only see victims of injustice.

  448. ALL of this garbage is just another of the many ways Jews and their various indoctrinated Leftist malcontents try to score cheap points by bashing White Christian Civilization. It’s the same with the niggers and slavery etc…

    It’s not like these people ACTUALLY give a fat rat’s ass about them. They couldn’t care less about this bullshit, other than the fact that it’s useful in reinforcing the notion of “Whitey bad”…lol

  449. @Loup-Bouc

    Since the Sioux, and injuns in general, were at least as aggressive against other ethnicities as Whites were, your point of view can only be defended if injun supremacy is taken for granted.

    • Replies: @Loup-Bouc
  450. @Sparkon

    As the photograph of the Iroquois man shows, it was not only the Plains Indians who were tall

    FYI, one is a not a statistically significant number. A picture could just as easily have been taken of a massive White man beside a midgety injun, but that would not prove the physical superiority of the former over the latter. In any case, White technology has created systems that provide hundreds of millions with a plentiful, protein-rich diet and commensurate increase in height, whereas the primitive injun lifestyles only provided that for a few thousand.

    • Replies: @Avery
  451. Avery says:
    @Ray Caruso

    {FYI, one is a not a statistically significant number. A picture could just as easily have been taken of a massive White man beside a midgety injun, but that would not prove the physical superiority of the former over the latter.}

    If you had read the article in the link that [Sparkon] posted, it is more than ‘….one is a not a statistically significant number. ‘

    [STANDING TALL: 1800s Native Americans Were Tallest in the World]
    [How do we know this? Modern-day anthropologists Richard Steckel of Ohio State and Joseph Prince of the University of Tennessee discovered some data collected in the late 1800s by the “father of anthropology,” Franz Boas. Boas had studied Native lifestyles and recorded measurements of 1,123 native men in eight equestrian Plains tribes. His findings: all the tribes were taller than white men, and some were substantially taller. ]

    [He studied eight equestrian tribes of the Western Plains: the Assiniboine, Blackfeet, Crow, Sioux, Arapaho, Cheyenne, Kiowa, and Comanche. The average height of white men in the U.S. was about 5’6” in the mid-1800s, and European men were slightly shorter. However, Boas found that the height of the average Cheyenne was a whopping 5’10”; the Arapaho about 5’9”; the Crow 5’8-1/2”; Sioux 5’8” and the Blackfeet a fraction under the Sioux; the Kiowa were 5’7” and the Assiniboine a fraction under the Kiowa. The Comanche were the shortest; they had the same average height as white men: 5’6”.]

    The gist of this particular thread of posts is the discussion between carnivorous diets vs modern grains/carbs based diets. The point is not that which can feed the most people the cheapest*: modern agriculture certainly does that. But the question is which is healthier for the individual.

    And this is nothing new:

    [World’s Tallest Men Trace Back to Paleolithic Mammoth Hunters]
    [The Upper Paleolithic broadly dates to between 50,000 and 10,000 years ago].
    [Remains of Gravettian men suggest that they stood between 5 feet 10 inches and 6 feet 2 inches on average, which was an extraordinary size for the time. In contrast, men among the ancient Maya who lived several thousand years later were 5 feet 2 inches tall on average. Mayan women were about 4 feet tall on average.]

    ___________________
    * ‘Cheaper’ compared to what? If we include the astronomical health care costs in US, which are largely a consequence of modern diets, the cost of modern food may not be that cheap at all.

  452. Avery says:
    @Sparkon

    Great link [Sparkon].
    Thanks.

  453. @Commentator Mike

    Vlad Tepes, the national hero of Romania, used to impale tens of thousands of Muslim POWs at a time, skewered alive like pigs and left to die slowly on stakes, in defense of Europe and Christendom from the Ottomans who used the same method on Christian prisoners.

    It needs to be pointed out that Vlad was outnumbered and took advantage of Muslim superstitions regarding burial.

    Sure the guy was a pyscho but he proved that Muslim invaders can be repelled by terrifying them and using their religion against them.

  454. @Commentator Mike

    I know that… And that is my point… So my question was how did hat poster qualify the idea that Native Americans would do bad things to each other before Europeans got there. There is a reason millions of Europeans were willing to brave sea sickness to get across the Atlantic and it wasnt because Europe was the best quality of life.

  455. @Commentator Mike

    But you made a good point…. Well one thing is a “real Christian” wouldnt do such things. Thats why the idea of a “Christian country” is a false concept. To maintain power you have to use worldly methods… Hence what the Roman governor of Judea was told by the Man from Galilee “my kingdom is not of this world – if it was my servants would fight”. The bible in one hand and a gun in the other is a made up motif by the frontiersman. From the same mindset you noted in Romania torture going back to Constantine.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  456. @Truth

    Well in any case, Druids were not native Europeans. They came to England from the Meditterannean. There were Ron L Hubbards in those days too.

  457. Loup-Bouc says:
    @Ray Caruso

    My work-obligations deny me spare time enough to proofread the following text. I type badly. I apologize for any typing error that may mar the following text.

    ========

    You did not READ my comments. You hallucinated what you wanted to see.

    My comments did not express or imply a “point of view” that “could only be defended if injun supremacy is taken for granted.” My comments did not assert or imply that I believe some certain human subspecies, ethnicity, or tribal or national culture may be superior to one, more than one, or every other human subspecies, ethnicity, or tribal or national culture.

    [MORE]

    Rather, in one of my comments, I wrote

    I feel no love of indigenous Americans, “White” Europeans, Jews, Blacks, Asians, Polynesians, or any other division of humanity. I am nearly a misanthrope, and my near-misanthropy is universal — does not favor any “race,” sex, or creed over any other.

    And I quoted that language [my same language] in another of my comments. See:
    * my comment of January 5, 2021 at 12:25 pm GMT (comment # 383), https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4385197 — which I addressed to you
    * my comment of January 6, 2021 at 10:30 pm GMT (comment # 451), https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4388171 — which I addressed to another commenter [I corrected a typing error of that comment in my comment of January 7, 2021 at 12:20 am GMT (comment # 455, https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4388369 .]

    You show yourself given to misreading language your sloppy mind deludes you to consider opposed to your perceptions. Even do you delude yourself to believe you know the unexpressed (private) thoughts of someone you have never met.

    In my comment of January 5, 2021 at 12:25 pm GMT (comment # 383) [referenced supra], my first point was:

    Learn to READ. I wrote exactly this:

    The killings sought removal of “White” European invaders.

    * * *

    True: Even before “Whites” invaded, sometimes Sioux killed or tortured members of other indigenous American tribes — even tortured themselves (with the Sundance). Sometimes other indigenous American tribes’ members killed or tortured Sioux or members of still other indigenous American tribes. But that history cannot excuse the “White” Europeans invaders’ vicious near-annihilation of indigenous Americans or theft of indigenous Americans’ lands or destruction of much of their food-resources.

    My first and last sentences addressed “White” European vicious aggression wrought against ALL indigenous Americans, not only Sioux.

    My point referred to your hallucinating that in an earlier comment I had criticized “White” Europeans’ having displace just the Sioux (invaded and misappropriated only Sioux land).
    In your comment of January 5, 2021 at 4:43 am GMT (comment # 377), https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4384721 — which you addressed to me — you had written:

    If Europeans “stole” land from the Sioux, then the Sioux “stole” it from other injuns.

    In your same comment [comment # 377, January 5, 2021 at 4:43 am GMT], you wrote also this:

    They [Sioux] had only been in the Dakotas for 70 years when Europeans got there. I assume you didn’t know that and that your post is a reflection of your ignorance. But if you did know, then it’s a reflection of your non-White supremacy, which is to say, you think non-Whites were allowed to compete for the land but Whites weren’t. [Emphasis added by me, Loup-Bouc.]

    Your assumption was multiply false. You assumed falsely:
    * (1) that I did not know how long the Sioux had inhabited the Dakotas before “White” Europeans invaded the Dakotas
    * (2) that the Sioux had not entered the Dakotas until 70 years before “White” Europeans invaded the Dakotas
    * (3) that the Sioux had not inhabited, hunted, fished, or traversed any area that included any part of the Dakotas until 70 years before “White” Europeans invaded the Dakotas
    * (4) that I hold an ethnic, racial, or political view describable as “non-White supremacy” [your term]
    * (5) that I would reproach the America-invading 15th-through-19th-centuries “White” Europeans because they “compete[d] for land”
    See:
    * my comment of January 5, 2021 at 12:25 pm GMT (comment # 383), https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4385197 [referenced supra]
    * my comment of January 6, 2021 at 10:30 pm GMT (comment # 451), https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4388171 — referenced supra and corrected in my comment # 455, https://www.unz.com/freed/the-nobility-of-savages/#comment-4388369

  458. glib says:
    @Sparkon

    So we got to the same conclusions. Indians’ superiority came from meat and only from meat. They could not have eaten much fruit, since it was available, all told, only a few months a year. In winter there was meat only, too. Others have posted in this regard.

    But it is not a genetically generated superiority. Take a white group, feed them a quality diet, and in three generations they will catch up with the Indians. I note that my chickens used to do that, too. In summer, they would not touch their feed, despite the impending scurvy, and eat only bugs (and the fermented veggies inside).

    The Indians problem, of course, was that they were at the same point in the human evolution as Europeans were 50,000 years ago, and so they lost. And with that I mean only the Plains Indians, living on a straight meat diet, and feeling no need to evolve their habits. The Iroquois, and other tribes of the East USA, had better dwellings and a more advanced society, but they were also smaller and sicker. You can find more info looking up Dr. Eades on youtube, “paleopathology and the origins of the low carb diet”.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  459. @Showmethereal

    Yes, religion should deal with spiritual non-worldly matters (although they are linked) but … all have to use worldly methods … and if we happen to be Christians … and end up with out backs against the wall having to fight for our survival, country, existence … then that motif of sword and the bible or gun and the bible isn’t so out of place or as incongruous as it may seem. All armies, even Christian ones facing each other, appeal to God, the same God, for victory and for forgiveness for the murders they’ll commit … just stating facts here … not that I really have any strong opinions about it.

  460. Sparkon says:
    @glib

    So we got to the same conclusions. Indians’ superiority came from meat and only from meat
    […]
    And with that I mean only the Plains Indians, living on a straight meat diet,

    No, we did not reach the same conclusion, and we don’t agree on that point. You seem to be cut from the same cloth as certain ignoble posters at UR who simply ignore or deny anything and everything that doesn’t fit within their cherished dogma.

    The Plains Indians were not living on a straight meat diet. The excerpt I posted above makes that clear. They ate a lot of meat, but in addition they consumed vegetables like corn, beans and squash, along with fruits like plums, berries, nuts, and seeds, and they further preserved many of these foods for consumption over winter.

    The more nomadic tribes like the Comanche traded buffalo meat and furs with more sedentary tribes like the Wichita, getting agricultural products in return.

    Wichita – The homesteads were dispersed; the houses round, thatched with grass and surrounded by large granaries to store the corn, beans, and squash they grew in their fields. Oñate’s Rayados were certainly Wichita, probably the sub-tribe later known as the Guichitas.

    They had a close alliance with the French, and in 1746 a French brokered alliance with the Comanche revived the fortunes of the Wichita. The village at Petersburg was “a lively emporium where Comanches brought Apache slaves, horses and mules to trade for French packs of powder, balls, knives, and textiles and for Taovaya-grown maize, melons, pumpkins, squash, and tobacco.”

    [my bolds]

    The Wichita also cultivated plum trees. Like the Illini, they were not fond of fish. Artist George Caitlin noted that the Wichita had a different physical appearance than the other Plains tribesmen he had painted, who were tall and fair. The Wichita were short and dark.

    No argument on this point: meat is a great source of protein and many other nutrients. But the Indians ate a varied diet, making it likely they were getting all the nutrients they needed to be healthy. Certainly, vegetables like corn, beans, and squash are not meat, nor are fruits, berries, nuts and seeds, all of which were consumed by the Plains Indians, ensuring that they were getting balanced nutrition.

    Yes, meat is good, but the Indians did not survive on it alone, not even in winter.

    • Replies: @glib
  461. glib says:
    @Sparkon

    well in the North they most surely did. I also have to wonder how they could grow crops, at least those who followed the buffalo herds. Sure, there were tribes, specially in the East, who stayed in their territory. In California, the staple for many tribes were acorns.

    You can see comparison of genetically identical tribes, one HG, one settled, at the link below (starts around 24:00). I think you are quoting from an era when trade was made more possible. But one thing I am curious of, what are the nutrients a buffalo does not have?

  462. @RouterAl

    It goes back further than that: the hunter-gatherers are always in trouble when the farmers show up. Occasionally, pastoralists show up and kill the farmers and breed with their widows, but then they become farmers in their turn.

    The human hunter-gatherer subspecies is simply going extinct. Women do not select for those traits any more. The only hunter-gatherers left are in human zoos like the Sentinel Islands.

  463. anon[454] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Tell that to the Cherokees or had their white spouses simply tire of them and sent them on the Trail of Tears, and when they arrived in Oklahoma to build Ft Sill and lived in holes in the ground with the young women selling themselves for a few loafs of bread or the Navajo who would soon follow them with their own Trail of Tears. Perhaps if they had belonged to the feel good party of the Libertarians they would have been in the land of honey.!!

  464. @Ace

    What socialism?
    You judge a man on a single thought, which, even odds, you possibly don’t understand?
    Is wrong to hope that humanity can “improve” ? Then again, perhaps “nasty, short & brutish” was sufficient aspiration?

  465. @the grand wazoo

    “degenerate” ?
    Big call, esp’ given its your pure unsupported opinion….
    Nietzsche was a physically sick man — vicious headaches, vomiting etc. And in later years suffered some form of insanity, which many believe had syphilitic causes.
    But degenerate? Well, I can think of many more obvious & deserving candidates for such a severely negative characterisation…..

  466. Alden says:
    @GeneralRipper

    We didn’t kill very many. In fact, there’s 2/3 more that in 1500. But we gave them their own autonomous territories out in the boon docks and perpetual subsidies payments for the lands we took from them.

    They’re happy on the reservations. Most importantly they stay on the rezzes and don’t take over the formerly great cities like the niggers and Jews did.

  467. Alden says:
    @sb

    Australia was a penal colony. N America was both a settler colony and a penal colony. As soon as the British lost N America they sent the convicts and Scots Welsh and Irish rebels off to Australia. I’m sure you can find it in Wikipedia.
    There’s entire history books written about it.

  468. Alden says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    You’re a pimp Jeff. That’s how you know about sluts.

  469. Alden says:
    @John Johnson

    Around 600-700 AD the Swedish Rus tribe of Vikings conquered the area now known as Russia Ukraine and re named it Russia. Russia Ukraine has long north south rivers running down from the far north to the Black Sea. 2,000 years before the Greeks imported wheat and gold from what’s now Ukraine across the Black Sea.

    As soon as they conquered Russia, the Swedish Vikings began transporting slaves to the Black Sea port now known as Odessa and shipping the Slavic Slavs to Byzantium Anatolia and the Turkish tribes It’s very well known. It was mostly women well, teen and child girl slaves for the harems and brothels. Many of the slaves were transported further west to the Arab Berber countries

    An Arab, not Turk slave trader went north with the Rus Vikings for an entire trip north to Viking Russia and back south with his load of slaves.

    His name was Ibn Hawqual. He wrote a book about it 977AD It’s still in print.

    According to him, all the Viking women were slaves no wives or acknowledged daughters just slaves. Seems unusual, but that’s what Ibn Hawqual wrote about Viking women. 977AD when he write the book all the men and women slaves were killed when a Viking was buried. Historians estimate that 80 percent of Scandinavians were slaves in Viking Times. .

    After the Russians and Ukrainians became Christian and the Tartar tribes became Muslims the Tarter tribes took over the job of kidnapping Slavic Christian children and selling them to the Turks and west all the way to Morocco through the Black Sea shipping routes. This went on until about 1790 when Catherine the Great conquered all the way to the Black Sea.

    Those Slavic slave women were so numerous the round faced slant eyed flat little nosed completely Asian Turks became White Caucasian between about 500 AD when the Mongols started chasing them west and about 800 AD when they reached the eastern borders of Anatolia.

    At some point the Turkish Sultans stopped marrying Turk aristocrats and only had children with their slave women. Who had been captured as children, stuffed in leather bags, the bags tied in the backs of horses, and shipped to Turkey. They kidnapped children because being small, children were easier and cheaper to ship.

    After a few hundred years of this the Sultans were Slavs not Turks.

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