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The Maya: Who Woulda Thunk It?
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Inasmuch America has a large population of Latin Americans, it seems to me that people, or some people, might want to know about them, and what they are, and where they came from. Most Latinos of the south are either a mixture of Spanish and Indian, or sometimes pure Indian. We have some idea of the Spaniards. They were European. But what were the Indians? What is their contribution to the great numbers of–whether you like it or not–new Americans? In particular, what are their blood lines? Are they, as nativists insist, of very low IQ–83–and have they enstupidated the Spanish? Horrendously primitive?

Without thinking about it, I had the entrenched idea that they were just that. I wasn’t conscious that it was either an idea or entrenched–just a fact. It didn’t occur to me that I knew virtually nothing about these people, or that there was anything to know.

What pulled me up short was their architecture. Throughout a large region, sort of Yucatan through parts of Honduras, you find ruined cities of monumental architecture that would match most of what is found in the ancient Near East. A great deal of it is overgrown with jungle. To get to major sites like Palenque, you walk through dim trails with unexplored walls and passageways. But the existence of these ruins did not set well with the idea of primitive incapacity. The architecture was entirely Indian since they had no contact with Europe.

Chiapas. Compares well with a lot of Roman monumental architecture. There are lots of these: Palenque, Tikal, Piedras Negras, Copán, Yaxchilan, Teotihuacan, Caracol, Uxmal, etc.

Chiapas. Compares well with a lot of Roman monumental architecture. There are lots of these: Palenque, Tikal, Piedras Negras, Copán, Yaxchilan, Teotihuacan, Caracol, Uxmal, etc.

Chiapas. Time and the weather have not treated this building well, but it seems to me that these things must take considerable engineering talent.

Chiapas. Time and the weather have not treated this building well, but it seems to me that these things must take considerable engineering talent.

Pyramid at Chichén Itsá. For scale, note people at lower left.

Pyramid at Chichén Itsá. For scale, note people at lower left.

Aha! I thought with the brilliance of one who has been hit over the head by the obvious. Something screwy is going on here. How witless can you be and engineer these things? I started poking around. And found interesting stuff. For example:

Mesoamerican Mathematics

The Maya invented a sophisticated base-20, positional-exponential number system, including zero. The invention of zero is regarded as major advance in mathematics, and occurred in India for sure and perhaps in other places, though never in Europe. Until Fibonacci brought zero back from the Hindu-Arab world, Europe used Roman numerals, a horrible system. I knew this, but had never thought about it. Well, it’s worth a little pondering.

In a positional number system, a number–7, say–has an absolute value–in this case unsurprisingly 7–as well as a different value depending on its position. For example, in the number 100,007, seven means, well, 7. In 100,070, its value is 70, and in 10,700, its value is 700.

“Exponential” means that each position in a number represents a different power of the base, in our case 10. Thus we have ten to the zero power equals one, to the first power, ten; squared, 100, cubed, 1000, and so on.

The Maya, using base twenty, had a similar progression, going 1, 20, 400, 8,000, 160,000 etc.. (Inevitably the choice of 20 as the base is attributed to our number of fingers and toes, though I have trouble imagining anyone actually counting on his toes.)

Neither of these ideas is obvious, or anywhere approaching obvious. Both eluded Archimedes, for example. They seem natural to us because were are steeped in them from the first grade and, since everyone has had high school algebra, exponents seem routine. Using a thing and inventing it are very different animals. Any bright freshman can sling definite integrals; it took a Newton to invent them.

Imagine that you are a Mesoamerican Indian somewhere in Central America trying to figure out how to deal with large numbers. The fact that you are interested in large numbers suggests that you are not stupid. You have never had high-school algebra or heard of exponentiation. I cannot imagine how you would get from here to “Eureka!” (though as a Maya you probably didn’t know Greek either).

The idea “Hey, what if I line up powers of 20, multiply them by sort of coefficients, and add them….?”–is a huge intellectual leap. So far as I can determine, it only happened twice. It never happened in Europe.

For the mathematically curious, the Maya system had a remarkable peculiarity. Number systems, or anyway all I have heard of, require a number of symbols equal to the base. For example, binary, base-2, has two symbols, 0 and 1; decimal, base-10, ten symbols 0-9; and hexadecimal, base sixteen, 0-F. So I thought, Oh help, I’m going to have to memorize twenty symbols of some weird sort. In fact, the Maya ran a base-20 system with only three symbols representing 0, 1, and 5. That is truly strange, but it works. If interested, the link above explains it nicely.

For the record, from The Story of Mathematics: “The importance of astronomy and calendar calculations in Mayan society required mathematics, and the Maya constructed quite early a very sophisticated number system, possibly more advanced than any other in the world at the time ….The pre-classic Maya and their neighbours had independently developed the concept of zero by at least as early as 36 BCE, and we have evidence of their working with sums up to the hundreds of millions, and with dates so large it took several lines just to represent them. ”

Curious from a Stone Age people, which they essentially were. I note that Europe did not invent zero.

The Wheel


It is often said that the Maya never invented the wheel. Actually they did. Hundreds of these wheeled pull-toys for children have been found. Several writers have commented that it is difficult to understand why the Maya were unable to make the mental leap to the idea of making full-sized carts. But of course they could. Thing is, there were no animals to pull them, such as horses or donkeys. Making a mental leap to horses does not get you a horse.

Human Sacrifice

The Maya in the popular mind are thought to have been murdering, torturing savages given to human sacrifice. This is probably because they were in fact murdering, torturing savages given to human sacrifice. Why this is thought especially reprehensible is a mystery. The Romans sacrificed huge numbers in the arena so that the public could enjoy watching them die, crucified large numbers, and poured molten lead down the throats of criminals. In the European witch hunts, sort of 1450-1750, some 500,000 were killed depending on whose numbers you accept, mostly by burning alive. The Tudors hanged criminals, cut them down still alive, opened their abdomens and removed their bowels while still alive, and had four horses attached to their arms and-legs put them into pieces. And of course everybody and his dog put entire cities to the sword, from Joshua to Hiroshima. Despite their best efforts the Maya could not keep up with the moderns.


The invention of writing is among the major intellectual achievement of humanity and one that occurred at most three or four times on the planet, and perhaps fewer. Specialists argue, idiotically in my view, over whether Chinese was or was not influenced by earlier writing. Specialists have to do something with their time. What is not arguable:

Wikipedia: “It is generally agreed that true writing of language (not only numbers) was invented independently in at least two places: Mesopotamia (specifically, ancient Sumer) around 3200 BC and Mesoamerica around 600 BC. Several Mesoamerican scripts are known, the oldest being from the Olmec or Zapotec of Mexico.”

The Maya script is logosyllabic and said to be functionally similar to Japanese, to which it is utterly unrelated. It is not “proto-writing,” but actual real writing. This was not immediately known because the script had not been deciphered, but now about ninety percent can be read. This doesn’t help as much as might be expected since the Spanish Christians, as destructive as the Muslims of today, burned almost all Maya books–codices actually–and so everything we know comes from inscriptions carved on buildings. Imagine how we would look to Martians with the same problem. The book to read if interested is Breaking the Maya Code.

The Arts




The aesthetic is a matter of taste but these to my eye appear artistically respectable. The Maya of today do nothing in math and technology, but retain a fine sense for design and the use of color.


Again from The Story of Mathematics: The Maya “were able to measure the length of the solar year to a far higher degree of accuracy than that used in Europe (their calculations produced 365.242 days, compared to the modern value of 365.242198), as well as the length of the lunar month (their estimate was 29.5308 days, compared to the modern value of 29.53059).” Try to imagine how they did it.

It is interesting that Europe invented neither writing, zero, nor its number system, but the Mesoamericans did all three. Perhaps the Indians were enstupidated by the admixture of Spanish blood. While this is all good fun, it again raises the question of how and why groups pass through periods of intellectual fertility and then stop, as the Maya certainly have. Always there is some pat genetic explanation that doesn’t make sense, can’t be established, or both. But the Indians did what they did. Interesting stuff, no?

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
• Category: History, Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Hispanics, Mayans 
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  1. Marcus says:

    I completely agree, we should give them every opportunity to rebuild their impressive ancient city-states in the jungle, wouldn’t want the next Pacal the Great to end up as a janitor at the J Edgar Hoover building instead.

  2. Kyle a says:

    Actually the Aztecs were the torturing savages. Mayans, not so much.

    • Replies: @Jim
    , @Clyde
    , @Joe Wong
  3. Why, clearly Ancient Aliens explain the Mesos’ scientific acumen. That guy with the funny hair says so on cable and if it’s on cable–especially the History channel!–it’s got to be right.

  4. Good article, but you forgot to credit European descendants for inventing the verb enstupidate.

  5. Romanian says:

    It is perfectly possible for the vast majority of them to have been low IQ, yet an endogamous subpopulation within their society to have been high IQ. The contrast between India’s low average IQ and the high IQ people it sent to the West is another example. Generally, the existence of distinct subpopulations is how you reconcile the issue of having a less than intelligent population which, nevertheless, has high achievements. Razib Khan had a post on this recently.

  6. Those of us who have any knowledge on the subject at all are well-aware of the advanced nature of the Mayas, particularly their mathematics and astronomy, relative to other contemporaneous civilizations.

    The question is why the poor performance of their present-day descendants in modern industrial culture. Immigrants from East and South Asia (China, Southern India, Korea, etc.) tend to excel relative to the “white” average after they come to the U.S. Mexican and other Latin American immigrants generally do not. The HBD explanations usually trotted out to explain such things are, as Fred says here, an inaccurate explanation for this phenomenon.

    Better explanations are necessary in order to have a rational debate on the merits of continued immigration into the U.S.

  7. dearieme says:

    “Interesting stuff, no?”

    Yes, but when I try to use examples such as this on blogs where someone has been overdoing the race superiority business, I seem to meet denial or mere bafflement. Face it, inventing zero is a greater intellectual achievement than any in the history of the US or its predecessor colonies.

  8. Richard says:

    Good ol’ irresponsibly glib Fred. The “Islamists” of ISIS and al-Nusrah he terms “Muslims,” whereas in fact they are evidently an aberration. They are not Muslims according to their own orthodox authorities. See for example the scathing remarks of a Shaykh Imran Hosein or even a Hassan Nasrallah.

    24 reasons ISIS are wrong: Muslim scholars blast Islamic State

    Muslim Leaders Have Roundly Denounced Islamic State, But Conservative Media Won’t Tell You That

    “What makes groups like Islamic State “radical” in the first place is that they reject all these centuries of scholarship and tradition, and innovate a newly “reformed” Islam — often pieced together with concepts of ideology and organization drawn from contemporary fascist and Marxist-Leninist movements. Such freelancing is a common characteristic of Islamic extremist groups, and despite their pretensions to ancient revivalism it is also a reflection of their inescapably modern revolutionary heritage.”

    ISIS’s Anti-Islamic Theology of Rape

  9. Priss Factor [AKA "Dominique Francon Society"] says: • Website

    Does anyone know if there were cultural or tribal connections among the Mayans, Aztecs, and the Incas?

    Or did they develop entirely separately from one another?

    I aks because of the remarkable similarity in the pottery, architecture, and the arts. Look at their pyramids. Look at their sculptures.

    In the case of Western Europe, much of the art and architecture came to be similar because just about all European civilization followed the Classical Model. So, we have Greek and Roman columns in France, Spain, Germany, Britain, Sweden, Russia, and etc. Even up to the early 20th century, many buildings were modeled on neo-classicism.

    And a lot of stuff in East Asia look somewhat similar because many Asian nations adopted the Chinese style of painting and architecture. So, we see the same kind of tiled roofs and pagoda-like structures.
    And India and all nations influenced by Indian religion and culture have similar kind of architecture. The Angkor Wat in Cambodia looks very much like Hindu/Buddhist Temples in India.

    In contrast, there is a great deal of divergence among the arts and architecture of Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, and etc.

    To be sure, there is something like a similarity among the Near East folks, the big beardos. Babylonians, Persians, Assyrians, and such folks were into massive sculptures of men with huge beards and of giant bulls. They seem to belong to a cultural family distinct from the Greeks and the Egyptians.

    Were the connections(historical or cultural) among the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs? Why are their arts and architecture so similar? After the Mayan empire fell, did the survivors of that civilization keep alive some of the culture and did that serve as seed for creating the later civilizations? Or did the other ones begin from scratch on their own?

    If the latter is true, there seems to be a collective consciousness among the Meso-American folks. Their mental archetypes are different from that of other races. Though American Indians never created great civilizations, one can find similarities between their artistic expression and those of the South and Central Americans.

    When we look at Black African sculptures, the main theme seems to be elongation, stretch-arm-strong-ism, coneheadism, Giacomettism, and etc. Was it simply due to the fact that blacks had longer limbs and dongs? Or is there something in the black psyche that prefers a kind of elongation approach? Consider how blacks like to stretch words out: ‘sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiit’ and ‘daaaaaaaaaaaaaaang’ and ‘he naaaaaaaasty’ or ‘dat mothafuc*a craaaaaaazy’.

    In contrast, a lot of the artistic expression of the Meso-Americans seem to squat-ism, crunchism, smooshism, playdo-ism, squeezism, Tattoo-ism(Fantasy Island), turtle-ish, and etc. It could have been due to the shorter stature of the Mesos. Or maybe there is something in the Meso-psyche that prefers things short and curt. Mesos are related to Americans Indians and East Asians who have similar squatism in their styles of psyche. American Indians just say ‘how’. Japanese speak in clipped style. Chinese language is made up of mono-syllables.

  10. Priss Factor [AKA "Dominique Francon Society"] says: • Website

    “The Maya in the popular mind are thought to have been murdering, torturing savages given to human sacrifice. This is probably because they were in fact murdering, torturing savages given to human sacrifice. Why this is thought especially reprehensible is a mystery. The Romans sacrificed huge numbers in the arena so that the public could enjoy watching them die, crucified large numbers, and poured molten lead down the throats of criminals. In the European witch hunts, sort of 1450-1750, some 500,000 were killed depending on whose numbers you accept, mostly by burning alive.”

    Well, all peoples have done bad things.
    But cruelty isn’t just about what but why.
    If a nation kills 100,000 people of another nation in war, that is less horrifying that if a nation killed 1000 people in human sacrifice.
    Wars are terrible, but they are, as some guy said, ‘diplomacy by other means’. There will always be conflicts among man over resources and other reasons. Wars are necessary evils.
    As for cruel punishments meted out by Romans and others, yes, they were horrible. But there was still the matter of justice. Even if the methods were barbaric and extreme, people were being punished for something they did.
    As for the witchhunts in Europe during the Christian era, there was the genuine panic and belief that the witches were possessed by the Devil. So, there was a moral component to the violence. It’s like communism killed many people but in the name of creating a more just society. And even though US did horrible things in WWII and other wars, wars are like that. It is fought to win, and people lose their minds in the melee. Winning becomes everything, and the hatred of the enemy drives much of the action.

    The bloody Gladiatorial games are more problematic morally, but many of the victims were animals. Also, the humans were given some chance of fighting and surviving. And if they won enough fights, they might even be shown clemency and be admired as a hero.

    In contrast, human sacrifice in Meso-America had no moral justification. The victims didn’t commit any crime. They were innocent. They weren’t seen as possessed by demons or forces of Evil. Rather, the Meso-Americans worshiped amoral gods that was into might-is-right. And this god had to be satiated with the blood of innocents.
    Now, such rituals also existed in other cultures. I think Babylonians sacrificed little children to the gods, at least in some silent movie.

    There is a difference between violence in service of over-zealous sense of justice or revenge AND violence in service of amorality of might.
    Righteous people may cruelly punish the wicked.
    Soldiers in war may carry out horrible acts of vengeance against the other side. Consider what Soviet troops did to Russian women in WWII. Or Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the US.
    But the Mayans in Mel Gibson’s APOCALYPTO were just being ‘a**holes’. They just abducted forest folks and sacrificed them to some Lord of Amoral Might in the sky.
    There was no reason for the killing except to satiate the Conception of Power without Moral Vision.

    Maybe the lesson of the Mesos is that the smart elites shouldn’t be too cruel. Maybe there were indeed very smart elites in Meso-America. But they acted to cruelly and amorally that the masses came to really really hate them. And when the civilizations fell, the masses were so pissed off that they killed off all the smart people.

    In any society, there is a limited number of smart folks, esp very smart folks.
    Among Old World civilizations, such people might become elites and gain great power and wealth. But they still showed that they were not all about power and force. They also won the trust of people with show of justice, spirituality, civic virtue, and etc.
    It seems the elites of Meso-America failed to develop any moral or spiritual system that could win and hold the trust of the masses for long. They ate too many magic mushrooms and worshiped some bloody god and decided to rule by sheer terror and fear-mongering.
    So, when the empires fell, it could be that the angry masses killed ALL the smart folks.
    Bill Gates said ‘be nice to nerds cuz they might hire you one day.’
    It could also be said, ‘be nice to people because they might bring you down one day.’

  11. pyrrhus says:

    It’s clear that the Maya had some very intelligent people between 50 and 100 generations ago, especially in areas like astronomy and architecture…That doesn’t tell us much about the intelligence of their descendants 50 generations later. Check out the research on Mouse Utopia and the movie Idiocracy….

    • Replies: @gwynedd1
  12. inertial says:

    So, did the Europeans invent zero? You never mention this.

    Seriously though, mathematics seemed to have developed in those ancient societies where astrology was very important – Egypt, Babylonia, and, apparently, the Maya. By contrast, the Greeks did not contribute to math as much as is commonly thought. E.g. Pythagorean Theorem was well known in the Middle East centuries before Pythagoras; there are many examples like that. However, the Greeks were excellent systematizers and textbook writers.

    • Replies: @Kyle a
    , @Anton
    , @Anonymous
  13. Kyle a says:
    @Priss Factor

    The Mayans were long gone by the time the spaniards showed up. Don’t know if that excludes the groups from interaction.

  14. Kyle a says:

    The Muslims stole from the Greeks and the Indians

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @uslabor
  15. I submit a controversial concept: electro-magnetic genius, or EMG. The Maya seemed to be aware, as well as the early Egyptians, that the solar system is on a 32,000 year cycle. The positions of the planetary bodies in relation to the sun create disturbances in their relative electro-magnetic fields, which on Earth, interact with the genes of everybody’s favorite sentient species.

    The Maya broke up the solar cycle into various ages, which may correspond variously to an environmental nudge towards activating genius in the human species at greater or lesser rates depending on the Age.

    EMG. It could be a thing.

    It may help explain the cycle of civilizations as well, which seem regular if you follow Martin Armstrong.

    • Replies: @Reactionary Utopian
  16. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Is it possible that the environment in the Maya area after the collapse created a strong selection pressure for something other than intelligence, such that it degraded? My understanding is that can happen. Suppose for example that an individual appears with a genetic difference that causes him to be able to run 10 km/hr faster, but knocks 2 points off his IQ. Remember, he doesn’t have to outrun a cheetah, he just has to outrun his buddy. Sounds like quite an adaptive change! Granted, it seems that 1000 years aint quite enough for a significant genetic change to take place, but then again, all the variation between the human races appeared in the space of 200,000 years, so maybe 1000 is enough for this relatively minor change after all.

    This all assumes that they had a way of keeping cheetahs and the like out of cities during the civilized period.

    I was amazed when I climbed the pyramids at Teotihuacan. The spell was kind of broken at the top of the sun pyramid where the park ranger said in monotonous repitition, “vayan caminando” (or however he put it. My command of Spanish is as poor as my memory and my command of Spanish) and sent us right back down.

    Here’s another hypothesis for the diminished Indian IQ, but before I get to it I’d like to thank you, Fred, for enriching my vocabulary with the words “enstupidate” and “Clitler”. I notice you don’t seem to use the latter, but my enthusiasm for it continues unabated. Anyway, here’s one for you if you haven’t invented it already: encolonate. Example usage:

    “Maybe the reason that some races perform poorly on IQ tests is that they feel that you can take your stupid test and encolonate it.”

    Great read as always, thank you kindly.

  17. @Abelard Lindsey

    The question is why the poor performance of their present-day descendants in modern industrial culture.

    Is that really true? People from the Yucatan claim that modern Mayas are quite successful.

  18. Lot says:

    Fred, in a contest between the ancient Maya at their peak, and Europe of the same era, you may well be right that the Maya had comparable or higher IQ. Though primitive Europeans had some pretty impressive monuments such as Stonehenge.

    That does not tell us much about the IQ of modern mesoamerican indios compared to whites. The most direct way to compare is look at IQ tests, and the former have much lower IQs than the latter.

    Whatever the case 1000+ years ago, Europeans had a long period of strong selective pressure for higher IQ from the Middle Ages until about 1900, as documented by Clarke and others. It is possible it went the other way in ancient Mexico. Its cities may have acted as demographic sinks for higher IQ people from the countryside. And there were multiple cycles of more advanced civilizations in ancient Mexico being conquered by barbarians migrating from the north.

    Certainly, there is the well-documented example of the decline of Rome. Rome was semi-meritocratic, but had very dysgenic fertility, to the point it greatly worried Augustus. And it too was destroyed by barbarian invaders from the North. The Bronze Age Collapse provides another example of multiple advanced, relatively high IQ civilization being destroyed by illiterate and likely low-IQ invaders.

    In summary, I do not think the advanced civilization of the ancient Maya tell us much about the intelligence of modern mesoamerican indios.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  19. Priss Factor [AKA "Dominique Francon Society"] says: • Website

    Why do people condemn imperialism and slavery but celebrate diversity?

    Diversity in the New World is mostly the consequence of imperialism and slavery.

    Spanish came to the New World, conquered and enslaved people. From this there was rape and race-mixing.

    And the Spanish and Portuguese imported millions of black Africans to work as slaves.

    That resulted in Diversity.

    Celebrating Diversity is celebrating the dark violent forces that brought about it.

    Some will say that the New Diversity is the product of immigration, but much of immigration is forced on the native population.

    For example, the American Indians and Hawaiians who lost their homeland to whites didn’t ask whites to bring immigrants so that they will lose their lands to immigrants as well as to whites.
    And white Americans and white Europeans didn’t demand their elites to bring in all these foreigners. It was pushed by the elites against the wishes of the people.
    The voters found out that whether they voted ‘right’ or ‘left’, the elites of all parties push open borders and more immigration.
    Immigration is the globalized elites’ destruction of their own peoples.
    Diversity is Elite Treason against the native majority.

  20. Anton says:

    Mayans and Aztecs are part of the same Mesoamerican cultural space which also includes Olmecs, Mixtecs, and a number of other peoples. All of them evolved together and influenced each other’s cultures and religions and were as similar as, let us say, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. Mayans seem to be the only ones who developed a genuine system of writing, while the others used pictography.

    The Incas are part of the Andean family of cultures. Andean peoples were very different from Mesoamerican ones. For example, they used copper and bronze weapons and tools, while in Mesoamerica they fought their wars and buit all their palaces and temples with stone and wooden ones. Another specific feature was quipus or talking knots – a system of recording information by means of threads with knots.

    The system of government in the Andes and Mesoamerica seemed to be different. Mesoamerica consisted of great number of small states constantly at war with each other and never managed to coalesce into a bigger entity. And Incas built a huge centralised and somewhat totalitarian empire.

    There seem to be very little contact between the two areas. However, it is believed that the Purepecha Indians in Mesoamerica originally came from the Andes. They made and extensively used bronze unlike their neighbours.

    In any case, all these civilisations are very interesting, though their religion and general view of life seem rather gloomy and depressing. Just one example: Mayans worshiped a goddess of suicide depicted as a hanged woman dangling on a rope attached to the skies!

    On the whole, their history demonstrates the essential unity of the human race. For all their difference, pre-Columbian peoples developed in the same way as the ancient peoples of the Old World and you find a lot of similarities between them and the Bronze Age Oriental cultures.

    • Replies: @Jim
    , @Joe Schmoe
  21. Anton says:
    @Kyle a

    That is not quite true. Those Mayans who were long gone by the time the Spaniards showed up inhabited the southern part of the Maya lands. But in the north, in the Yukatan peninsula, the Mayan civilisation continued to flourish – the city states of Chichen-Itzà and Mayapan, for example. It was their books that Diego de Landa burnt.

    Mayan Indians still inhabit Yukatan, as well as Guatemala, Honduras and Belize. And a number of Mayan languages is still spoken.

    • Replies: @Jim
    , @Jim
  22. “Perhaps the Indians were enstupidated by the admixture of Spanish blood.”

    Having known a few Spaniards, I’d say this isn’t out of the realm of possibility 😉

    More likely though is that the cultivated elite of Mayan society threw open the gates of the empire to bring in people to do the work the less-cultivated Mayans would not do (at the price the elites were willing to pay).

    History may not always repeat, but that doesn’t mean it won’t.

  23. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    ” In the European witch hunts, ….some 500,000 were killed depending on whose numbers
    you accept…” Jack Chick’s numbers?

    • Replies: @fred c dobbs
  24. Talha says:

    Very nice bro – and thanks for citations! What people also fail to think about is that the extremists of Daesh are destroying the symbols of cultural heritage NOW because it had actually been left alone or preserved by the Muslims THEN.


  25. Erebus says:
    @Priss Factor

    My God man, what an ignorance you have put on display. I’m taken aback.

    • Replies: @Ace
    , @Wizard of Oz
  26. Randal says:

    Good ol’ irresponsibly glib Fred. The “Islamists” of ISIS and al-Nusrah he terms “Muslims,” whereas in fact they are evidently an aberration. They are not Muslims according to their own orthodox authorities. See for example the scathing remarks of a Shaykh Imran Hosein or even a Hassan Nasrallah.

    The equivalent of C16th Catholics claiming Protestants “aren’t real Christians”, because look – all these (Catholic) theologians and authorities condemn their ideas as heretical.

    • Replies: @Talha
  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Is really Imran Hossein an ‘authority’?
    And is Hassan Nasrallah an ‘orthodox authority’ if he is Shiite (the heretics of Islam)?

    • Replies: @dahoit
  28. Truth says:
    @Priss Factor

    When we look at Black African sculptures, the main theme seems to be elongation, stretch-arm-strong-ism, coneheadism, Giacomettism, and etc. Was it simply due to the fact that blacks had longer limbs and dongs? Or is there something in the black psyche that prefers a kind of elongation approach? Consider how blacks like to stretch words out: ‘sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiit’ and ‘daaaaaaaaaaaaaaang’ and ‘he naaaaaaaasty’ or ‘dat mothafuc*a craaaaaaazy’.

    Dude, I think the Human Anthropology PhD lecture circuit is awaiting your brilliant contribution. Take my word here, Sport; DO quit your day job!

    • LOL: Marcus
  29. MJJB says:

    Eruption of El Salvador’s Ilopango volcano explains A.D. 536 cooling

    1,500 years ago, it may have been the site of one of the most horrific natural disasters in the world. It may be the long-sought cause of the extreme climate cooling and crop failures of A.D. 535-536

    The massive Plinian-type event with pyroclastic flows would have instantly killed up to 100,000 people, displaced up to 400,000 more and filled the skies with ash and dust for more than a year. The new findings would make it the second-largest volcanic eruption in the last 200,000 years. “This event was much bigger than we ever thought,”

    Such an eruption would explain the episode in Mayan history known as the Classic Period Hiatus, when the Maya stopped building stelae, decorative stone columns erected to mark events, Dull said. It would also finally explain the global cooling of A.D. 535-536, an 18-month period of cloudy skies, crop failures and famines that was described in both Roman and Chinese historical accounts.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  30. Jim says:

    Positional notation in the Old World goes back to Babylonia where a base 60 system was developed. At first they had no symbol for zero but sometimes left an empty space to indicate the abscence of a power of sixty. Later they developed a special symbol to indicate a missing power. They did not have the equivalent of a sexigesimal “point” but scaled numbers by context.

    The Hellenistic astronomers took over the Babylonian system and introduced an accent mark to serve the function of a sexigesimal “point”. They used this system for measuring angles and also developed a decimal system which they used for measuring chords.

    A non-positional system somewhat like Roman numerals was used in Hellenistic culture for commercial and practical applications but Hellenistic astromomers and mathematicains were well aware of positional notation.

    Hindu astronomy was largly derived from translations of the works of Ptolemy and other Hellenistic astronomers. Even the names of the planets used by Hindu astronomers are
    derived from the Greek names of the planets. The Hindu positional system was thus derived from Greek sources.

    The Hindus did develop the modern symbols used for the digits 0-9. The Hellenistic astronomers had used Greek letters. These symbols were adopted by the Arabs and from there transmitted to the West.

    The system used for the Long Count is somewhat interesting. In the positional systems as they are usually described the value at every position is the same however theoretically one may use any sequence of integers greater than one as the values at successive positions. However as far as I know the positional system used for the Long Count is the only example of a mixed base system actually adopted in practice.

    Incidentally it is not clear that the Long Count positional system was invented by the Maya. The first inscriptions with Long Count dates are associated with the Olmec. Long Counts were later used by both the Maya and Zapotecs but not by other Mesoamericans. Now Olmec culture is similar in many respects to Mayan culture but unfortunately the Olmec script has not been deciphered and it not known what kind of language the Olmecs spoke. At present the Amerindian languages spoken in the area of the Olmec culture are not Penutian like Maya but Mixe-Zoque. However these languages may be a later intrusion as Penutian languages are spoken to the north and south of this area. Incidentally Zapotec is neither Penutian nor Mixe-Zoque.

    It seems then most likely that the Long Count was invented by the Olmecs. It’s not known how closely related the Olmecs were to the Maya although culturally there are a lot of similarities. It is possible that the Olmec language might have been a Mayan language or a closely related Penutian language but this is not known.

    Fred – a personal comment – Mesoamerican cultures are extremely fascinating to study but you only seem interested in them as a springboard for ideological drivel and racial breastbeating. Ideologically driven study is not a path to understanding. However understanding does not seem to be one of your interests.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
    , @K
  31. Talha says:

    Hey Randal,

    The comparison is not the exactly the same even though Daesh are indeed reformers. First off, the Catholic Church never had monopoly as the voice of Christianity (see Orthodox Churches). Second off, Christianity never had the concept of ijma (consensus) as does Sunni Orthodox Islam:

    Daesh has broken with consensus on multiple issues:

    They have no high-caliber scholars of any note (I’m open to be contradicted in this regard if anyone has proof – they seem to be a bunch of young guys with guns making up stuff as they go along); at least the Protestants had people like Calvin or Luther.


    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  32. Ironic that the invading Europeans stopped the intellectual upward spiral of the Amerind civilizations — broke them so badly that nothing remained of pieces to “pick up” and go on.

    Ironic indeed, since that is exactly what the invading Amerinds from Mejico and points southerly are doing to the once-great American civilization.

    Damn. What goes around comes around in spades, don’t it?

    • Replies: @Jim
  33. Jim says:
    @Kyle a

    Utter nonsense. The Maya not only were still around at the time of the Spanish they are still around today. The Maya in fact proved considerably harder for the Spanish to overcome than the Aztecs. In fact after the initial conquest of the Yucatan a Maya rebelliin against the Spanish temporarily drove the Spanish out.

    The “collapse” of the Mayan civilization which you may be thinking of affected only the Highland Maya.

  34. Jim says:
    @Priss Factor

    Incas, Aztecs and the Maya are certainly not closely related. Although the Andean culture zone developed largely independently of Mesoamerica items of Andean origin have been found in Mesoamerica indicating that they were not totally isolated from each other but certainly their interaction was very slight.

    Aztecs were relatively recent arrivals from the north to the Valley of Mexico. Nahuatl is a Uto-Aztecan language most closely related in that group to the Kiowa-Tanoan languages of northeastern New Mexico and the Texas Panhandle. The greatest number of Uto-Aztecan languages are found in the Great American Basin indicating that that area is the place of dispersion for the Uto-Aztecan languages.

    The Maya have been present in the Yucatan, Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, El Salvador, extreme southern Mexico since as far back as they can be traced. Their languages are Penutian, a large family of languages spoken from the Northwestern US down to the area of the Maya.

    There was a lot of interconnection and interaction among all the numerous Mesoamerican cultures. For example some archaeologists believe that Chichen-Itzan may have been a Toltec colony in Mayan territory. There were also Mayan enclaves located in the Valley of Mexico. The Mayans and other Mesoamericans were certainly not at all isolated from each other. The Mesoamerican cultural area also included as a peripheral part the cultures of the American Southwest.

    There never was any “Mayan Empire” to “fall”. At various times different Mayan cities achieved greater status and prestige than others but there was nothing like the old world empires such as found in the Ancient Near East beginning with Sargon of Akkad.

    The Highland Maya did experience a collapse but there is little evidence of foreign intrusion and the common Mayan people of the area continued to live there much as before and of course can still be found. The Lowland Maya never experienced any “collapse” and were still going strong when the Spanish arrived. There is however evidence that Toltecs may have conquered and ruled over parts of the Yucatan for a period.

    • Replies: @Jeff77450
    , @iffen
  35. Jim says:

    “inventing zero us a greater intellectual achievement than any in the history of the US”

    Your statement qualifies as complete, utter and total nonsense.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
  36. woodNfish says:

    Yes, Mayan civilization is an interesting one, but it didn’t seem to help the peoples in the America’s when Western explorers discovered this new world. It was a case of advanced civilization meets stone age civilization. Guess which one always wins?

    Lamenting history is an invitation to stupidity. History happened – deal with it. Look at any nation colonized by the Catholic Spanish and you will find corruption a even worse than ours and rampant poverty. I think it says more about the Spanish and the corruption created by Catholicism than anything else.

    Face it, if you want a successful and prosperous nation, it needs to be white and have a western protestant culture. (Which it will if it is white. And for Japan and South Korea, and other Asian nations – they adopted Western ways to get where they are.)

  37. Jim says:

    There is no evidence that the Maya suffered any substantial decline in their numbers or territory that they inhabitated in Pre-Conquest times. The Highland Maya did experience a collapse of the great cities but there is little evidence of foreign intrusion and the life of the common Mayan people in the area seems to have continued much as before the collapse. There was no collapse of the Lowland Maya prior to the arrival of the Spanish although there is some evidence that parts of the Yucatan may have conquered by the Toltecs and ruled by them for a period of time.

    The Maya were not “long gone” by the time of the arrival of the Spanish and are still there in substantial numbers.

  38. Jeff77450 says:

    You beat me to it. Good point.

  39. Jeff77450 says:

    Interesting. Thank you.

  40. Jim says:

    Chichen-Itza is very different from other Mayan sites. Some archaeologists believe that Chichen-Itza was actually a Toltec colony in Mayan territory.

  41. Ron Unz says:

    In summary, I do not think the advanced civilization of the ancient Maya tell us much about the intelligence of modern mesoamerican indios.

    Well, although that statement may be correct, there really doesn’t seem to be much evidence that modern mesoamerican indios have particularly low IQs, at least when compared with those of various European countries. If you haven’t already done so, you might want to read a couple of my own articles discussing that issue in some detail:

  42. Jeff77450 says:
    @Priss Factor

    Interesting and very well said. It’s always been my understanding that the whole human sacrifice thing was about pleasing the god(s) and trying to influence him/her/them to do or not do something. In other words, from their point of view human sacrifice was done for pragmatic reasons and not just because they could. In any case, man’s inhumanity to man just never ceases to amaze me. Just when I think that I’ve seen it all some new, heretofore unknown, atrocity makes the news and my mind is blown yet again.

    • Replies: @Jim
    , @Clyde
    , @Truth
  43. Jim says:

    Your statement that Mesoamericans other than the Maya used only pictographs is totally false.

    To me the differences between Mesoamerican cultures and those of the ancient Near East are far more striking than the few similarities.

    One very striking difference is that although true writing was widespread in Mesoamerica its use almost exclusively involved monumental inscriptions and high status work of a poetic, religious or epic nature. In contrast to this the writing of the Ancient Near East had its origons in the needs of merchants to record business transactions and was used in this way for centuries before the first monumental inscriptions. The use of writing in the Ancient Near East pervades the whole of society. In fact mounmental inscriptions and poetic, religious and epic texts form a very small part of the recovered texts. We have a huge amount of business documents, vouchers, bills of lading, contracts and merchant correspondence. Also there is a massive quantity of administrative documents and diplomatic correspondence. There are also private letters, diaries, pharmacopeias, manuals on all kinds of practical subjects such as horse-training, wills, records of legal proceedings, historical chronicles, extensive legal codes and on and on. In comparison with this the use of writing in Mesoamerica remained very restricted over the approximately two thousand years in existed prior to the Conquest.

  44. Jim says:
    @Ron Unz

    It is simply silly to regard Mesoamerican cultures as having reached a level comparable to that attained by Old World cultures. In evaluating statements about “advanced mathematics” etc. one should note that there is nothing in the surviving Mesoamerican texts comparable even to the Ahmes papyrus. In fact there really isn’t much evidence of any theoretical knowledge of mathematics. There is no evidence of the existence of professional scribes or of any schools teaching any theoretical knowledge about mathematics or any other subject. In contrast there are a huge number of school tablets containing worked problems in mathematics, surveying etc. from the Ancient Near East. This is long before the classical Greek mathematical texts.

    It may be reasonable to compare Mesoamerican cultures to Uruk but simply ludicrous to compare them to say Mycenae.

    Certainly though among the Mesoamericans who used the Long Count (Mayans, Olmecs and Zapotecs) there was a knowledge of how to convert the Long Count dates into the common Mesoamerican calendar. The days of religious festivals were set by means of the Long Count and so would drift around the common calendar year.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  45. Jeff77450 says:
    @Ron Unz

    Mr. Unz, I peruse your website several times a week and I usually learn something. Thank you for creating & maintaining it.

    This very credible source suggests that the average IQ of Mexicans and Central Americans is about 85, a full standard deviation, 15 points, below Caucasians:

    Cold-fusion, the cure for cancer and the first manned Mars mission won’t be coming from Latin America.

    I have difficulty understanding why people bother denying that IQ exists and that different groups have different averages: Ashkenazi Jews, 110; north-east Asians, 105/; Caucasians, 100; the various brown races, 80-90; black Americans, 85; black Africans, 70. Hey look: my group, “generic American WASPs,” didn’t come in first *or* second. And *within* the group known as Caucasians my group didn’t come in first; that honor goes to the Germans/Dutch. Doesn’t seem to have held us “colonials” back. Clearly, a culture that pursues, embraces and values freedom & progress can go a long way towards compensating for IQ deficiency. That truth at least partially explains why north-east Asians didn’t split the atom or put a man on the moon.

  46. Jim says:
    @Kyle a

    Human sacrifice and cannibalism were widely practiced in Mesoamerica, including by the Maya, but rarely as extensively as among the Aztecs.

    One thing to note about the Aztecs – because they were at the height of their power at the time of the arrival of the Spanish and they were the first major adversaries to the Spanish they have have had a very big impact on European perceptions of Mesoamericans. However the Aztec Empire was of very recent origin just prior to the arrival of the Spanish and the Aztecs themselves were fairly recent migrants form the North. So they are actually not that typical of Mesoamerican cultures of which a very large number existed at various times and places in the more than two thousnad years of Mesoamerican pre-C0nquest civilizations.

    Focusing excessively on the Aztecs is not conducive to a balanced appraisal of Mesoamerican culture.

  47. Jim says:
    @Abelard Lindsey

    Speaking of the “advanced” nature of the mathematical and astronomical knowledge of the Maya as compared to other conteporaneous civilizations (presumably you mean in the Old World) suggests that your knowledge of Mesoamerican cultures is extremely slight and possibly based on Hollywodd movies.

  48. Ron Unz says:

    This very credible source suggests that the average IQ of Mexicans and Central Americans is about 85, a full standard deviation, 15 points, below Caucasians

    Ha, ha, ha… People will believe whatever some random fellow puts up on a colorful website .

    If you look at your suggested website, which is most definitely NOT a “credible source,” you’ll notice the actual *source* of all those colorful maps are Prof. Richard Lynn’s books.

    I’ve actually *read* all those books and the articles which I provided as links analysis his data in some considerable detail, so you should probably read them.

    Actual books tend to provide much more information than colorful websites. One problem with the Internet is that people have gotten too lazy to read books, and just click on colorful websites instead…

  49. Jim says:

    According to the religious ideology of most Mesoamerican culturs failure to sacrifice humans to the Gods would have lead to crop failures and no doubt other disasters and calamities.

    As for atrocities you definitely did not want to be on the losing side in a Mesoamerican war.

  50. Marcus says:

    It may be reasonable to compare Mesoamerican cultures to Uruk but simply ludicrous to compare them to say Mycenae.

    This seems at odds with your previous post, notably

    The use of writing in the Ancient Near East pervades the whole of society.

    My impression is that the Mycenaeans, whose society was centered on the warrior king’s stronghold, were much less literate than their contemporaries in the Mideast.

    • Replies: @Jim
  51. Jim says:

    Japan has had one of the highest standards of living in the world for most of the past 1500 years. It was only about the end of the eighteenth century that the standard of living in Western Europe surpassed that of Japan.

    Your statement that a succesful and prosperous country must be white and Protestant is ludicrous. Certainly Protestantism has had very little influence on modern Japan.

    • Replies: @woodNfish
  52. Ron Unz says:

    Incidentally, I should add that I actually *know* Prof. Richard Lynn (who was the actual *source* of the data for that colorful website you referenced), and have corresponded with him at some length over the years. Indeed, he found some of my articles on the subject of Race/IQ very interesting and quite persuasive.

    Here’s a link to a long list of my articles and columns on the subject, totaling perhaps 30,000 words, including exchanges with Lynn and his close collaborators:

    You might want to read the articles and then decide for yourself. But that takes much more time than just glancing at a colorful website some random fellow put up.

    I’m sorry for being a little harsh, but it’s rather irritating that I publish 30,000 words of detailed analysis and instead of paying any attention to it, someone just glances at some colorful website that an ignorant graphics designer probably put up in 30 minutes or so.

    • Replies: @Jeff77450
    , @Lot
  53. Jim says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    The “upward spiral” of Mesoamerican civilizations was certainly proceeding very slowly compared to progress in the Old World. In some respects the civilizations in existence at the time of the Spanish arrival were not at the level of the Toltecs before them.

    In the two thousand years from 3000 BC to 1000 BC there is much more in the way of “progress” in the Near East than in the two thousand years or so of pre-Conquest Mesoamerican civilizatiosn.

  54. mtn cur says:

    Whether here on UNZ, or among a coven of box wine, hot tub liberal yuppies, the posturing about comparative intelligence is absurd, rather like bragging because we are the smartest retard in special ed. Indeed, the best argument against God condemning evil doers to hell would be that an intelligence so powerful as to think the universe into existence and then create anything as silly as homo sapiens and burn them in hell forever for stupid behavior is absurd. More intelligent than what, dead possums or run over dogs? Indeed, contemporary bomb and rocket scientists, along with chemical engineers are possibly more stupid than even senators and federal judges.

    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @utu
    , @Wizard of Oz
  55. Jim says:

    The writing from Mycenae is almost exclusively of an administrative nature but it does indicate that the Mycenae rulers exercised a very tight and extensive control over their realms. Mycenae is not part of the Near East and my statement about the pervasive use of writing in the Near East does not apply to Mycenae.

    Mycenaean culture though in terms of pottery, metallurgy and political organizations was far more advanced than any Mesoamerican culture. There is very little from Mesoamerica in terms of administrative documents, legal codes etc. In fact I’ve never heard of any legal codes found in Mesoamerica.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  56. Jeff77450 says:
    @Ron Unz

    “Denial is not just a river in Egypt” and “The truth hurts.” Let me guess, you think that _The Bell Curve_ was racist nonsense. IQ is very real and so are those IQ rankings.

    Okay, what’s *your* explanation for why every single Latin American country–my use of the word country in lieu of nation is deliberate–is a chronic basket-case that can’t seem to gain traction and get its act together??

    • Replies: @Alden
  57. Jeff77450 says:
    @Ron Unz

    IQ has been an interest of mine for thirty-seven years. I’m not basing my assertions on a single website.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  58. Marcus says:
    @Ron Unz

    In your opinion, why haven’t the centuries-long efforts of the Jesuits to Europeanize/Christianize various Amerind tribes borne fruit?

    • Replies: @utu
  59. Marcus says:

    I’m aware of that, my point is that the Mesoamericans seem more comparable to Mycenaeans than to the more literate Mesopotamians, Syrians, etc. Mycenaean writing is mostly limited to palace inventories

  60. woodNfish says:

    There will always be outliers in any pattern, but I am still correct. Even the Japanese saw the writing on the wall after they were opened to the West and began sending their elite children off to western universities to be educated and learn about western society and bring it home to Japan.

  61. Ron Unz says:

    Well, I’m busy with my own work and almost never involve myself in these comment-threads, so perhaps I shouldn’t have made an exception here.

    But if you’re interested in the topic, I do suggest you read some of my articles. It’s possible you might learn something…

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  62. @alaska3636

    The positions of the planetary bodies in relation to the sun create disturbances in their relative electro-magnetic fields …

    Heee, heee, heee; haw-haw; chuckle-chuckle-chuckle.

    Good one! Thanks, I was needing a good laugh this afternoon.

  63. Lot says:
    @Ron Unz

    Well, although that statement may be correct, there really doesn’t seem to be much evidence that modern mesoamerican indios have particularly low IQs, at least when compared with those of various European countries.

    “Much evidence” and “particularly low” suck out most of the content of your claim here. I’d say there is overwhelming evidence that the native people of the Yucatan and Central America have lower IQs than white Europeans and Americans.

    Sometimes when we talk about IQ we are not fully clear about if our meaning is actual intelligence or genetic potential IQ. Obviously the Meso-Euro IQ gap is smaller for the latter because so many Mesos were raised by illiterate bean farmers, jungle dwellers, and now mostly in teeming unsanitary slums.

    For the question of the extent of the gap, I’d guess the Indians of central america have actual IQs of about 85 and potential IQs of about 90-92 after reviewing the data we have.

    IQ researchers have certainly made mistakes before. Underestimating Irish and Ashkenazi IQ a long time ago for instance. Looking at broad racial IQ estimates, however, they data and estimates they compiled 70-100 years ago has held up awfully well.

    • Replies: @artichoke
  64. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

  65. Lot says:
    @Ron Unz

    Ron, I have read all of your writing on IQ and for the most part not been terribly convinced. I don’t know if you have an actual bias, but a lot of the writing seems to be slanted toward the idea mestizos/indios have higher IQs that commonly thought, while the gap between Ashkenazi and NE asians is lower than commonly thought.*

    As for Lynn, his first “IQ by country” article was just terrible, but he has since remedied some but not all of the flaws from his initial estimate. I think HBDchick has the most extensive discussion of the problems with “Lynn Round 1”

    *My own estimate is Japan/South Korea/Urban+overseas Chinese have an IQ average of about 105 while unmixed Ashkenazi outside of Israel around around 115. Israeli Ashkenazi and rural Chinese are both a few points lower. The actual numbers depend in part how you weight spatial reasoning, with NE Asians very strong and Ashkenazi nothing special on this area.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  66. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Himmler had scientists undertake excavations of prehistoric sites.
    Hitler commented:

    “Why do we call the whole world’s attention to the fact that we have
    no past? It isn’t enough that the Romans were erecting great buildings when
    our forefathers were still living in mud huts; now Himmler is starting to
    dig up these villages of mud huts and enthusing over every potsherd and
    stone axe he finds. All we prove by that is that we were still throwing stone
    hatchets and crouching around open fires when Greece and Rome had
    already reached the highest stage of culture. We really should do our best
    to keep quiet about this past. Instead Himmler makes a great fuss about it
    all. The present-day Romans must be having a laugh at these revelations.”

    • Replies: @utu
  67. Lot says:

    I speculate that the first few decades of human genetic engineering will increase ethnic IQ gaps. IVF has been around for quite a while and is still quite expensive. The initial stage will likely be the creation of a large number of embryos and then running a genetic test on them, implanting the most promising. On one hand, these tests will increase the already high cost of IVF. On the other hand, many of the users of the tech will be women with normal fertility so probably one round will be enough for most of them. Indeed, a single round might be enough for a woman with normal fertility to plan out 2 or 3 kids in advance and implanted a few years apart, thus reducing cost.

    But I cannot see this ending up costing much less than $20,000, and that will be beyond the reach of groups with lower IQs, but easily within the reach of higher IQ groups. And when it comes time to choosing embryos, higher IQ people might end up weighting IQ above other factors much more than the sporadic average IQ couple that can actually afford IVF.

    • Replies: @colm
  68. Lot says:

    Early Germania lacked easy agriculture and high population densities, and their people had to focus a lot of mental effort on surviving winters.

    The closely related Gauls, however, pretty quickly became nearly as advanced and smart as the Romans within 100 years of their Roman conquest.

    And if you zoom forward to 1300AD, the Germans were composing polyphonic music and building Gothic cathedrals while the Maya had abandoned most of their cities.

    Even if you want to go back to 200AD, Porta Nigra, while designed by Romans, was likely built mostly by Germans:

    • Replies: @Marcus
  69. Ron Unz says:

    Ron, I have read all of your writing on IQ and for the most part not been terribly convinced.

    So? You’re just some anonymous racialist commenter who hangs around my own website and has never particularly impressed me with either his analysis or his erudition. By contrast, Lynn is a serious scholar.

    As for Lynn, his first “IQ by country” article was just terrible, but he has since remedied some but not all of the flaws from his initial estimate.

    Well, at the time I published my major article in 2012 and began the extended exchange, I’d read all of Lynn’s 5 or 6 IQ books, and given how elderly he is, I doubt he’s published too many more since then. The IQ debate went on for months, plus a few postscripts, and as far as I recall, I was ultimately proven correct in nearly every contested point. I’m not going to waste time regurgitating the long series of arguments, which is why I provided the links upthread, but here’s another important one:

    One of the most telling conclusions is that there is overwhelming evidence that a few decades ago the IQ of Ireland Irish was precisely the same as that of Mexicans. How you choose to interpret that important datapoint is your own business.

    Meanwhile, I’m busy with my own work, and probably shouldn’t have gotten dragged into this silly debate in the first place. People can believe whatever they feel like, all evidence to the contrary.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Lot
  70. @Priss Factor

    Maya culture lasted a very long time, and its early phases were BC on the Christian calendar. That stage of their culture was contemporary with part of the Olmec civilization, the ur-civilization of central Mexico.

    The Maya continued on, having their heyday in what was Europe’s dark ages, with their post collapse village culture surviving to meet the Spaniards and still exist today. Their language is spoken today. And contrary to early accounts, some of their city-state cultures were actually around centuries after the overall collapse of their urban civilization, still around at the arrival 0f the Spaniards. In that sense, the ending of Gibson’s Apocalypto was not entirely as implausible as some critics had it.

    The Olmecs did not last so long, but were the template for all who followed in central Mexico.

    The Aztecs, their last imitators, were actually late arriving ‘barbarians’ [to use a European analogy that the inhabitants of the valley of Mexico when the Aztecs showed up would likely have agreed with] from the distant north [I think they are considered kin to peoples like the Ute] who built their civilization broadly along the lines of the cultures and traditions they found, which went back to the Olmec traditions.

    Think of the long arm of influence of the Egyptians or Babylonians on the traditions of the Hellenistic age, despite the reach of two thousand years.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  71. Looked at over the broad sweep of their histories, the MesoAmerican and Peruvian cultures from the last millennium BC to Contact demonstrated probably the maximum possible scope of civilization at a stone-age level of technological development.

    It could not stand up to a late iron-age culture that had developed steel weapons and armour, gunpowder weapons, and ocean-going ships. Although it might have done MUCH better if it had not lived in essentially an alien biosphere to old world germs.

    What that civilization was able to achieve was, as Fred notes, not trivial. Some more interesting questions might be:

    – how much more scope for accomplishment was there in the absence of moving beyond the super-Neolithic level of technology? What if anything might have been seen from them in the absence of contact? And if there had been more to come, where if anywhere was the real hard limit for a Neolithic culture? Presumably, somewhere short of industrialism. But how far short?

    – Would the new world ever have made the leap beyond the stone age? Could they have? Was this indeed, as has been hypothesized, a hard limit set by the north-south geography, agricultural possibilities, climate, types of animals, and geological possibilities of the Americas?

    One thing suggests that there were some hard limits. Despite the advances still being made, especially in purely intellectual areas like math and astronomy, the Americas seem mainly to have been what older anthropologists might have patronizingly called an arrested culture.

    The Olmecs and earliest Maya were doing many of the same things as the early middle eastern civilizations and not so far behind them [arguably not at all, or centuries at worst, trivial on a timescale of a couple of millennia BC]. But at least in such qualities as technology and organization [metalworking, transport, ever-larger forms of social organization both political and commercial, very long distance communication and travel] the major civilization zones of the old world seemed to move far ahead of the New before the age of Augustus or the Han dynasty or the Mauryan empire.

    At least at the level of survey history, it doesn’t seem like the New world civilizations moved all that far beyond the Olmecs or at least whoever built Teotihuacan in the 1000-1500 years between those times and Columbus. Whereas Hellenistic civilization or Augustan Rome were well ahead of where their parent cultures had been in 1500 BC, and the same could be said of the Middle East of the Persians, of India, and of China. And, by 1500, Classicists notwithstanding, Europe had come up with a few new things [optics, better shipbuilding and navigation] and could do as well in architecture. Still behind Rome on some fronts, but advancing in others. And India and China were similarly far more than copies of what they had been circa AD 1.

    To me that’s the key questions- the limits of Neolithic civilization, and whether the Amerind peoples had pushed them to their limit; and the potential limits imposed by the geography and what that did to the potential scope of those cultures.

    One last- the Indians of the eventual eastern US need to be cut some slack.

    They weren’t the Aztecs, still less the Olmecs or Toltecs of old. But they pushed Neolithic culture to an interesting level themselves with the Mississippian or moundbuilder culture [these being archeology terms, not ethnonyms of the peoples].

    They did not build in stone, but in earthworks and wood. But they built large settlements that were well planned. Technologically probably no better than the Celts or Germans could have done two thousand years earlier before contacted by Rome, but much better and more systematically laid out according to rational plans. And bigger than any Gaulish town by a wide margin. [Really, I think my Celtic comparison is more to give an estimate of Mississippian position relative to MesoAmerica, as Celts were to Rome, as to really compare the Mississippians to the Gauls].

    They also had moderately complex religion, at least comparable to some of the earlier bronze age polytheisms of the old world, more than mere shamanism, and with some complex if potentially dark cosmological and sociological notions perhaps similar to those of MesoAmerica.

    They also had complex social organization, broadly of the priest-king format or the chiefdom, anthropological generalizations usually just short of the complex monarchy or city state, and well ahead of mere tribalism.

    The collapse of that culture, whether failure of its religion, harvest failure, climate change, or population collapse due to old world diseases sweeping from the south, or all of those things, had a profound effect on the region and there was definite massive population collapse. The expedition of de soto at least encountered fairly large native polities at the chiefdom level in the southeast, clear successor states. When Europeans showed up in greater numbers generations later, all had collapsed and populations were even smaller.

    I’m no expert, but I gather many cultures including Seminole and Cherokee had some connections to that legacy, and even those that didn’t [Iroquoians?] were influenced by it and the remaining chiefdoms or tribal polities of much of the east were its survivors.

    There’s a case to be made that Europeans settling the eastern US were operating in the equivalent of a post-apocalyptic landscape, far more so than the Spanish in Mexico or South America. Sobering, even to those of us with no qualms about colonization of North America.

    So, like the Mexicans or Peruvians, technologically and organizationally about 1000 years or more behind their old world equivalents, though with some superior niche features comparable to or better than more advanced old world cultures, and possibly at the limits of their scope for development.

    Still stone age cultures, and not about to invent steel, guns, or ocean going ships or the skills to operate them unaided. But not to be taken lightly.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @dc.sunsets
  72. Marcus says:

    You’re kidding, right? Germany is extremely fertile with the Rhine Valley, Danube, etc. Alao they had easy access to cattle, horses, etc. that Amerindians certainly did not

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Karl
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  73. Marcus says:
    @Ron Unz

    Why won’t you answer my question? Surely Amerindians have their merits, but doesn’t their failure to assimilate into Spanish civilization after five centuries give you pause?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  74. MarkinLA says:

    Well Archimedes with his poor numbering system was dealing with the concept of infinity in calculating the area of shapes which is probably more significant than zero since it is the basis of calculus.

    This article says he did devise his own place value system with a base of 100,000,000.

  75. Lot says:
    @Ron Unz

    So? You’re just some anonymous racialist commenter who hangs around my own website and has never particularly impressed me with either his analysis or his erudition.

    My overall impression of you is a lot more positive than that, you are extremely smart on an overall basis, take a selfless interest in truth for truth’s sake, and are generous personally with both your time and your money.

    On the more negative side, your writing on crime, IQ, and politics is simply not scholarly. By that I mean your writing generally evinces a mind that has already made a decision and looks for evidence favoring your view and ignores or unfairly discounts contrary evidence. You also do not take criticism very well and tend to react with offense and insults. For an example of this, if you think I am not erudite you have not read my comments with a fair and open mind.

    As another example, you have often called me and others “racialists,” not exactly a common term and obviously in your usage a pejorative, while refusing my request that you explain what exactly you mean by the term. And it is not like I make repeated, tiresome requests for you to explain what you mean with various words and phrases. Rather it was the only such request. As it happens, my views on race controversies are pretty mainstream outside of the USA and Western Europe, and were mainstream here fifty years ago. They are also in accord with a healthy minority here, and barely different from, say, Steven Pinker or Razib.

    By contrast, Lynn is a serious scholar.

    I agree, but he also, in his 1990’s national IQ work, showed that he does not understand how to perform meta-analysis of diverse sets of data. Worse still, he seemed unaware of this inability, and reported his results with unwarranted confidence and precision. Basic common sense should have told him that his SS-African IQ estimates were absurdly low. I think one country he had in the 50’s, which translates to “drooling idiot” range. He also reported extremely implausible IQ differences between economically and ethnically similar European countries.

    But what did Lynn do afterward? He got himself more statistically sophisticated co-authors and gradually improved his work! You certainly understand and have written about some of the problems with Lynn’s work.

    As a general matter, I think both you and Lynn are engaged in a fool’s game of trying to analyze either absolute levels or changes in national IQ. Making the tests culturally fair, properly norming them, getting representative samples, and so on is an enormous task, and nearly all of the data points Lynn uses, and all of the data points for most of the countries including Ireland, simply cannot be used to make apples-to-apples comparisons with tests of native English speakers in the USA.

    In summary, having read all of the articles you wrote and linked to, I think you were overly broad and ambitious in choosing your topics compared with the time and resources you had to devote to them, you engaged in motivated reasoning, and you showed an unwarranted confidence in both your methods and your results. I still enjoyed reading them, because they contained a lot of interest ideas and data. My suggestion for future work is to choose narrower topics and before publishing, try to get comments on your drafts with smart people who you know will likely disagree with you.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @vinteuil
  76. MarkinLA says:
    @random observer

    I still don’t buy the 25 million in North America number before Columbus being floated. I don’t see any significant number of large scale settlements being unearthed anywhere but in a few places. When the Mississippi and Missouri rivers overflow and create swamps, the midwest is impossible to live in and probably why the plains Indians never became farmers so I doubt the heartland ever had as large a population as the northeast or Pacific coastal areas.

    • Replies: @Rich
    , @random observer
    , @Alden
  77. Lot says:

    Germany is extremely fertile with the Rhine Valley, Danube, etc.

    Sure, but the area was more forested and the early Germans lacked crops adapted to the region. If you want to count as a strike against their IQ they did not develop such crops, sure go ahead and do so, but it certainly was a greater challenge for them than bringing Eastern Med. crops to, say, Southern France.*

    You’ll notice the same issue in the New World. Iowa is very fertile, but there was no large-scale pre-Columbian farming there like there was in the Valley of Mexico.

    *(Modern German nationalists sometimes flatter themselves as having stopped Roman conquest. In fact the Romans repeatedly invaded deeply into Germany and defeated every force that tried to fight them, but they saw no benefit to conquering an area unsuited for their agriculture and lacking in any scarce natural resources. The Romans found the Germans to be brave and to fight well one-on-one, but lacking in military disciple and completely unable to engage in an organized retreat and regrouping.)

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @Marcus
    , @5371
  78. Karl says:

    > and innovate a newly “reformed” Islam

    no, it’s the ORIGINAL Islam. Read the early history of Islam, bro

    • Replies: @Talha
  79. Karl says:

    > Alao they had easy access to cattle, horses, etc. that Amerindians certainly did not

    white guys today & for some time now, have been doing selective-breeding with NorthAmerican Bison.

    It’s not the Germans’ fault that the AmerInds were too stupid to try it.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Anonymous
    , @Ozymandias
  80. Marcus says:

    Irrelevant, they aren’t beasts of burden and their domesticability can’t compare to that of horses.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  81. Marcus says:

    Central America was a jungle, full of tropical diseases, Greece was rocky, lacking fertile land, etc. there are a lot more challenging environments

  82. @random observer

    The Aztecs, their last imitators, were actually late arriving ‘barbarians’ [to use a European analogy that the inhabitants of the valley of Mexico when the Aztecs showed up would likely have agreed with] from the distant north [I think they are considered kin to peoples like the Ute]

    Right. There were at least four waves of humans colonization of the Americas. (And there’s sketchy evidence of a fifth wave from Polynesia.)

    There’s no such thing as an ‘amerind’ race, the current genetic composition comes from the post-Columbus population bottleneck when 95% of the Indians died from disease.

    • Replies: @random observer
  83. @Richard

    Muslim extremists want to kill you; Muslim moderates want Muslim extremists to kill you. Those scholarly sources you referenced are just countering the claims of ISIS to be the caliphate. Their theology is the same.

  84. Lot says:

    The Romans won more than they lost until late in the Empire, which is why they conquered a fair part of Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Austria and Holland, which were all once occupied by German tribes.

    • Replies: @colm
  85. 5371 says:

    That’s an inaccurate and overly negative portrayal of the Germans’ military achievements against the Romans. That they preferred to fight in situations that favoured them, rather than in ones that didn’t, is a sign of their acumen, not of the reverse.

  86. 5371 says:
    @Priss Factor

    [I think Babylonians sacrificed little children to the gods, at least in some silent movie.]

    The child sacrifices of the Carthaginians, very well attested in history, have been confirmed by archaeology.

  87. Talha says:

    no, it’s the KHAWARIJ Islam. Read the early history of Islam, bro.


  88. cipher says:
    @Ron Unz

    “One problem with the Internet is that people have gotten too lazy to read books, and just click on colorful websites instead…”

    Mr. Unz,

    The behavior you describe strikes me as one of the hallmarks of a median or lower I.Q. population – e.g., America’s White middle and working classes.

    There are some things about which said classes are not lazy: televised team sports/games, alcohol consumption, and a remarkable inability to form mutually beneficial self-sustaining groups.

  89. Ron Unz says:

    On the more negative side, your writing on crime, IQ, and politics is simply not scholarly….For an example of this, if you think I am not erudite you have not read my comments with a fair and open mind.

    Well, you’ve left thousands of comments on this website, and I doubt I’ve read even 5% of them, but my impression is that you’re just a typical Jewish-activist/racialist nitwit, whose views on “Jewish meritocracy” and non-white crime rates and IQ are mostly ignorant and/or ridiculous, though it’s possible I might be confusing you with another commenter of a similar ilk.

    For example, upthread you wrote:

    My own estimate is Japan/South Korea/Urban+overseas Chinese have an IQ average of about 105 while unmixed Ashkenazi outside of Israel around around 115.

    Now it happens that Lynn published an entire book on Jewish intelligence, which you’ve clearly never actually read. Among other things, he collects all the dozens of extent Jewish IQ samples, which interestingly enough demonstrate that that for the first 50-odd years unmixed Ashkenazi Jews lived in America, they had an average IQ of about 101. Furthermore, as far as I know, there’s not the slightest evidence that Jews have ever had anything like the IQ of 115 you claim, which seems a typical internet hoax, presumably promoted endlessly by Jewish-activists such as yourself. Perhaps I’m mistaken, and Lynn somehow missed all your data, which you can now provide to correct me. Have you actually *read* any of Lynn’s books, or do you just casually browse racialist blogsites that summarize them for you?

    You also claim:

    Basic common sense should have told him that his SS-African IQ estimates were absurdly low.

    Really? I assume you’re aware that during most of the first half of the 20th century, the average tested IQ of Italians and many other Southern and Eastern Europeans living in America was around 70-75? Now if Italian-Americans attending schools in the world’s most advanced and wealthy country had tested IQs as low as 70, why is it so totally absurd that Lynn reported that Africans living in primitive near-jungle conditions might have IQs in the 50s or whatever? I’m not necessarily saying Lynn’s figures are correct—they’ve been disputed by other researchers—but they don’t seem so totally absurd to me. Or aren’t you even aware of the whole history of 20th century IQ testing in this country?…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  90. RobRich says: • Website

    It’s easy to wonder at the speed of progress of the Latins until you realize that until recently their population was smaller than North America’s and they bore the brunt of fighting Fascism and Communism in their own countries–and still are, in Venezuela, Brazil, and Columbia.

  91. Rich says:

    Many years ago,before the Marxists took over the history departments, the number I was taught as a schoolboy was about 1 million people in North America. It’s hard to read any new history because everything has to go through the prism of political correctness and affirmative action. It’s said that the victor writes the history books and the radicals of the 60’s and 70’s appear to be the winners now, but it seems to me that for a time, mid 18th century up to the 1980’s a lot of honest historians were at work. Those days are gone, maybe forever.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @dahoit
  92. MarkinLA says:

    How do you know? What was the horse like 10,000 years ago? I bet Yaks and other other forms of Oxen were probably no nicer than bison were before they became domesticated. Elephants have been made into beasts of burden and they are a lot harder to corral than Bison if the Elephant isn’t handled correctly.

    I think it has more to do with the mentality of the people. The people of Eurasia had a long history of domesticating animals and had developed methods for selecting members of a wild herd suitable for domestication and then breeding the unwanted traits out of their flock. Amerindians had no such history in North America while in South America with alpacas they did.

  93. Ace says:

    You’re working on a detailed rebuttal I take it?

  94. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    American bison are mixed. They are no longer pure.

  95. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Amerindians have a genetic IQ of 95, same as Middle Easterners.

    • Replies: @Racerealist88
  96. “The architecture was entirely Indian since they had no contact with Europe.”

    If you could rid your mind of that irrational assumption it would answer many questions you pose.

    • Replies: @Carlton Meyer
  97. Ron Unz says:

    Many years ago,before the Marxists took over the history departments, the number I was taught as a schoolboy was about 1 million people in North America.

    If we’re excluding the Aztec Empire of Mexico, is there any serious scholar who claims the Amerind population was drastically higher than 1M, let alone something crazy like 25M? Given the total absence of cities, that seems absurd. I think there are now claims that the Mississippi mound-builders might have had a larger population than previously estimated, and also the plausible argument that the European diseases reached North America before the Europeans themselves, wiping out a large fraction of the pre-existing population. So maybe the true figure might have been 3-4M instead of 1M. But are American textbooks really teaching something much higher than that?

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @MarkinLA
    , @Rich
    , @Jim
  98. @Carlton Meyer

    Allow me to add something from my blog:

    The great book “Lies my Teacher Told Me,” notes that Columbus’ diary states that when they reached Haiti, he found the Arawaks (local natives) in possession of spear points made of what they called “guanine.” The Arawaks said they got them from black traders who came from the south and east. Guanine proved to be an alloy of gold, silver, and copper, identical to the alloy preferred by West Africans, who also called it guanine. Given that West Africa is half the distance to the Caribbean compared to Europe, this is not surprising.

    • Replies: @colm
  99. Mark Caplan says: • Website

    For over thousand years — from about A.D. 500 to A.D. 1500, Westerners were enstupidated by the Christian Bible. For 5,000 years, Jews were enstupidated by the Jewish Bible: for all their vaunted brain power, they contributed nothing to civilization. Today we see in real-time how the Qur’an enstupidates Muslims. We can thank the three great Abrahamic religions for at various times extinguishing scientific invention and intellectual progress.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Wade
  100. @Anton

    Mayans worshiped a goddess of suicide depicted as a hanged woman dangling on a rope attached to the skies!

    Okay, but Christians worship Jesus who is often depicted as crucified and hanging dead on the cross.

    I think it may be hard to tell what is really going on from just an artifact.

    • Replies: @random observer
  101. WatchDog says:

    Alien visitors? (I watch too much TV.)

  102. MarkinLA says:
    @Ron Unz

    I vaguely remember that a book came out that trotted out that number and on numerous lefty sites people have thrown that back at me. I can’t seem to come up with a decent search to find it. I found some articles but they are full of arm waving and speculation about mass depopulation. The problem I have with these claims of large decreases in population is where did all the bodies go? The losses are so great and so fast that there is no way for these bodies to be disposed before they became a serious health problem for a low tech society.

    You have this part of university class syllabus.

    Even if they or I misunderstood and assumed it was North America, that would still give 10 million in the North and even that I can’t believe.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  103. dahoit says:

    Aren’t Protestants the heretics of Catholicism?
    One mans born again hypocrite is another mans righteous Christian.
    The eye of the beholder,and as someone else mentioned,Nasrallah is much less radical than the head chopping IsUS clowns who have given once righteous Muslim resistance a black eye.
    Obvious tools of US and Zion.
    In fact the NYTs admitted it today,probably as counter to the Wikileaks revelations regarding HRC.The fix is in.

  104. MarkinLA says:
    @Ron Unz

    Widely dispersed over the great land mass of the Americas, they numbered approximately 75 million people by the rime Columbus came, perhaps 25 million in North America.

    Maybe it was just Zinn’s BS endlessly repeated like a game of telephone.

  105. dahoit says:

    The more alleged native Americans,the more guilt they can lay on white people.
    I would say a couple of million at most,north of Mexico,as there are no relics,or very few ,of their existence.I live on LI,and I’ve never heard of anyone locally stumbling on Indian remains(occasional arrowheads),although there are some remains of camps found out on Eastern LI a decade or so ago.

    • Replies: @Racerealist88
    , @Anon
  106. Ron Unz says:

    Actually, your first link provides a detailed summary of the estimates, which vary enormously and emphasizes that the question is clearly hopeless to resolve, based on so much different guesswork. But it quotes a recent scholar who tried to resolve all the different researchers into a “best guess” and came up with a population of 3.8M above the Rio Grande, which seems fairly plausible to me.

    Maybe some of the confusion is semantic, since “North America” would obviously include the Aztec Empire, which had a huge population. I had the impression that everyone has always acknowledged that the Aztec and Incan cities were many times larger than Madrid at the time of the Spanish Conquest, and that the Spaniards themselves emphasized the enormous populations they were encountering.

    I doubt that the bodies from a die-off in the millions would be much of an issue, since even just animals and the elements would have caused them to mostly disappear within a few decades, long before European explorers reached the area. Huge numbers of animals are always dying in the wild, and their bodies quickly vanish. Obviously, the temporary health hazard from human corpses would have been huge, but that merely compounded the deadly impact of the diseases, which probably wiped out entire villages or regions.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  107. @Marcus

    I know you were making a more or less humorous comment but there is much truth in what you say. Rather than making Mexican indigenous types miserable raking our leaves it would be much much MUCH better to have them in an environment where they are expressing their creative powers as they did with those pyramids. (and not in the USA coercing our society away from what makes Europeans creative)

    Now it may very well be that trying to impress Spanish culture upon the Mexican natives screwed up Mexico. That’s a shame.

    But of course Fred is trying to talk up Mexicans. Problem is I am from Arizona and I’m not impressed. However in Brazil I’ve met several European Mexicans and they are fully capable of PhD level work.

    The whole thing would work better if we were practical and embraced true diversity ……which of course would have a bigger sigma ( variance) and of course that implies some greater segregation than that being forced on us by the SJW culture warriors.

    • Agree: Marcus
    • Replies: @Marcus
  108. @dearieme

    You think inventing ZERO is greater than anything that was invented in the USA?????????

    YIKES. You are dumb as a rock.

    Can you say “silicon”.

  109. @Ron Unz

    The Mexicans coming to the USA are not the brightest bulbs…….I know that from living in Arizona. Sample Size you ask? LARGE.

    I deal with the high end of IQ as an engineer. What I see in the IQ studies is reflected on the ground no matter where I go.

    You’re just wishing it were not so Mr Ron Unz.

  110. Very instructive. As an innumerate I am impressed. Here’s another consideration. In paleolithic times, 16000 BTP and even earlier, humans painted realistic naturalistic animals on the walls of caves. Human figures on cave walls right next to the realistically rendered animals by contrast were schematized, like stick figures. This suggests to me that self-consciousness, humans’ hardest task, was (already) clouded over by traditional explanations of the human condition. Yes, folks, this was early religion. Afterwards, realistic naturalistic animal drawings disappear from all successive cultures everywhere in the world, in Europe, Africa, the Americas, Australia. Apparently full-blown religion, which “explains” everything including the fauna, prevents a potentially gifted artist from seeing and rendering beautiful animals in their real shapes. And realistic naturalistic representation disappears from parietal art and is never seen again until . . . (Guess where!). Yes, folks, the extremely unreligious ancient Greeks, regained the ability to render animals naturalistically and, a bit later, humans, the way they really are, unclouded by religious belief (pagan religion, compared to the fervor of full religious belief, Christian or Islamic, as furniture of the mind, was worn lightly). This ability survived into the time of ancient Rome. But when religion again took over people’s minds, after the fall of Rome, realistic naturalistic art dwindled away and vanished. Naturalistic art was rediscovered in the Renaissance that is the ability to see natural creatures with the clarity of paleolithic wall art, transcending the constraints of religious belief. Now, consider the rendering of humans in Pre-Columbian art. Yes, folks, you are looking at accurate representations of their world-view. All the cruelty that the human mind is capable of was, it seems, made into the guiding principle of their religion.

    • Replies: @utu
  111. @Jim

    Fred – a personal comment – Mesoamerican cultures are extremely fascinating to study but you only seem interested in them as a springboard for ideological drivel and racial breastbeating. Ideologically driven study is not a path to understanding. However understanding does not seem to be one of your interests.

    So true.

    He’s sufficiently opinionated and sounds soused enough to be a candidate for a Linh Dinh interview, but LD’s other bar-room subjects generally make much more sense.

  112. @Ron Unz

    Your papers are enlightening, Ron. The story of Jason Richwine is a perfect example of the breathless hypocrisy of these witch-burners. They quote science, science, science on the environment (and we can argue the merits of THEIR paid-for-an-opinion-or-else “settled science”). Science on evolution-not-God-science. And they LOVE the social “sciences” that they alternately embrace or reject as it suits their feelings of the day. The science of abortion? No life is destroyed because THEIR science tells them so.

    The science of genetics however, they want no part of and THAT is the lesson of many of your papers. For that part they want the “God created us equal” meme played regardless of obvious evidence to the contrary. Witches, no generation is free of them.

    No reply necessary, Ron, just cheerleading. Go get em.

  113. @Talha

    I’m not very interested in Richard’s egocentric excursion from what Fred chose to write about but I have to point out that your distinctions don’t work. The persistence of Orthodox Christianity is wholly irrelevant (and anyway paralleled in Islam). Orthodox Christianity was no more an alternative source of authority in the West than Iranian Ayatollahs are in Egypt.

    As to consensus, what is the difference between that and the authority of the Pope or Vatican Councils for the purposes of your argument?

    • Replies: @Talha
  114. @Erebus

    I agree with Ace. Your assumption of superiority constitutes no rebuttal and sounds like arrogant blustering in someone else’s conversation.

  115. @Kyle a

    Why do you say “stole” especially in eras before IP law?

  116. @Lord Effington III

    Can you say “silicon”.

    Professional tip: Americans did not invent silicon. Silicon is a naturally-occurring chemical element invented by God.

  117. @Anonymous

    Something analogous to the decline in the average English intellectual performance (masked to some extent by the rise of women in higher education) in the last 120 years or so could have happened if there was a smart upper caste or class which was disproportionately killed off in civil or other wars and/or discouraged from reproducing itself by severe loss of wealth and status.

    • Replies: @Alden
  118. uslabor says:
    @Kyle a

    Pablo Picasso said:

    A good artist borrows, a great artist steals.

  119. uslabor says:
    @Lord Effington III

    Couldn’t have got to using silicon with the concept of zero.

  120. It is absurd to compare Mayan human sacrifice with Roman gladiatorial games. Mayan sacrificial victims were chosen at random from among female virgins, the population at large, subject peoples, or from captives in slave raids. The numbers of victims were probably in the tens of thousands per year. They were placed screaming on sacrificial alters, their bellies ripped open, and their still beating hearts torn out by a priest reaching into the body cavity through the knife cut. It was bloody and horrible. Gladiatorial contests in Rome were not held on a daily basis, but only on holidays associated with religious festivals or political events, such as triumphs. The people who died in the arena were of various types. Criminals might be condemned to die in the arena, in which case it was really no different than a public execution. No matter how cruel or unjust his death, a person who managed to get himself executed in the arena had to do something illegal. Opponents of the state, whether political conspirators or soldiers, were sometimes condemned to fight for their lives in the arena. However, most gladiators were captured soldiers who were trained to fight as gladiators. They were already accustomed to the use of weapons and inured to killing, and they were often highly esteemed individuals under the empire who were lavished with money and gifts, including the favors of impressionable women. In other words, they came to be looked upon in much the same fawning way we worship professional athletes.

    So let’s be clear. Gladiatorial games were distasteful and often brutal. But human sacrifice is completely abhorrent because it usually fell on a completely innocent population paralyzed with superstitious fear. There is a difference between brutalism and savagery.

    • Replies: @uslabor
    , @Wizard of Oz
  121. @Marcus

    Which era of Spanish civilisation are you referring to?

    Are you suggesting that pre Bolivar Amerindians should somehow have reached out and grasped some, and what, features of the crumbling Spanish monarchy that was not even part of the Enlightenment? Same mutatis mutandis for Brazil and Portugal.

    Don’t you think literate Ametindians might have noticed that Anglo culture was overshadowing the Hispanic?

    And you should factor in the lower literacy in Catholic countries compared to the Bible reading Protestant ones.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  122. Rich says:
    @Ron Unz

    You’re right. The 1 million number I was taught was referring to the population of American Indians in the US and Canada.

  123. @Ron Unz

    When engaging in IQ chatter in H-bd conversation perhaps 15 years ago i recall offering the same opinion about the unreality of Lynn’s 50 ish estimates of real Australian aboriginal IQs based on whatever tests had been used in whatever testing circumstances.

    I recall making the point that even with sd of 7 or so you had to expect a large number of them to be hardly capable of the most elementary functioning. Philippe Rushton disagreed without much explanation. That was before you Ron csme up with your devastating critique of Lynn’s figures of which those for the Irish stand out as the most egregious. Now I think you are muddling the issue because Lot is surely referring to the underlying reality of the brains which people are born with when he refers to the 50ish figures as defying common sense: much as it defied common sense to suppose that the rise in measured Irish IQs hsd much to do with biology.

    As to the Ashkenazi average IQ being more like 110 than 115 when did you come to that view? I recall about 15 years ago making the assumption that leading newspaper editors (way bsck then when virtually all broadsheets were prestigious) and leading Hollywood directors had IQs of 145 (sd 15) and showing that it wasn’t surprising that 50 per cent could come from a community of 3 per cent of adult Americans with average IQ 115. Similarly with Nobel Prize winners. The Jewish achievement in finance snd law I later noted was not reflected in corporation building and management generally as reflected in Jim Collins’s impressive books Built to Last and Great to Good. (Despite inclusion of Merck the lists hold up better than those in “In Search of Excellence”, also with estimable authors and corporations of which the same ethnic point could be made). Anyway my point is that 115 didn’t seem urban legend stuff then but I gradually became aware that the consensus was for something more like 110. As my own rough and ready calculations showing how dealing severely with the reproduction by low IQ people from an average 100 poopulation could raise the average by 15 points in 500 years were apparently beside the point I would be pleased to be pointed in the direction of the up to date best evidence.

  124. Marcus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    The Jesuits spent centuries trying to “Christianize” various tribes.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  125. uslabor says:

    Pouring molten lead down a criminal’s throat; is that brutalism, or savagery?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Epaminondas
  126. @MarkinLA

    Don’t know about the pre-contact numbers- I’m completely agnostic on that. I’m as open to 1 million as 25, although I am assuming 1 million is lowballing as 25 is likely exaggerating. Even 25 million isn’t that many people in such a large territory, though probably it would be pushing or exceeding the maximum possible at a Neolithic level, especially considering the environment of North America, which is harsh at the best of times and all the more so at that level of development.

    On that, interesting comment about the Mississippi system. that would take significant chunks of the large heartland region out of play for sustained settlement, although note that last I heard there was no malaria in the New World prior to contact. It was an African disease that had spread throughout the old world. There may have been other swampland diseases in the pre-contact Americas, though I don’t know what they were. I always thought yellow fever was also African origin.

    Admittedly, even absent those diseases, big swamps aren’t great. But they could be part of habitable larger regions if the settlements are on higher ground, especially if there aren’t insect borne diseases.

    Agreed on the idea that the plains probably always had low population density. I had assumed it was essentially unfarmable at premodern levels of farming and irrigation. Hence the term ‘great American desert’ used by the early Americans, before they themselves managed to farm much of it. And it’s just as tough to use it for hunting or pastoralism without horses, so the plains indian horse cultures had to await Spanish feral horses after contact.

    The true deserts of the SW did support a couple of the more advanced irrigation-based, town-building chiefdom-level cultures [the Anasazi- I forget the proper name for them now and always mix them up with their successors; just call it the pueblo cultures] but they had the Colorado river and some idea how to manage water. Perfectly respectable, albeit thousands of years behind old world early farmer chiefdoms of the levant or Anatolia, or the Nile or East Africa, or the pre-Indus culture, or pre-Shang China. But again, probably maxing out the development possibilities of their environment.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  127. iffen says:

    Is word count a valid criterion to use in the evaluation of evidence?

  128. @anonymous coward

    I don’t have any objections to the theory of multiple waves from Asia- I’m more directly aware of a couple.

    One, the more or less well confirmed idea that the modern Inuit were VERY late arrivals to the North, around 1000 AD and after, and supplanting a previous Arctic culture by the usual assortment of means whether demographic, violent or technological, and arriving in Greenland long after the first Norse settlements were there. I gather they had superior spear technology and correspondingly superior hunting, boating and warring skills, and were better adapted to the rapidly cooling climate of the North in that age.

    Two, the idea that there was at least one later wave of peoples into interior North America [I think the Utes and/or Navajos and/or Dene speakers [apologies for deep imprecision here- I’m no specialist on this] were the emblematic peoples of this wave. Though they were still related to and of similar origin to earlier waves, and of course here millennia before us, they were newcomers to a settled place.

    Though I wasn’t really speaking of that level of deep history, which is probably still 7-8000 or more years ago.

    The Aztecs/Tenocha/Mexica were late arrivals to Mexico and northern ‘barbarians’ in a much more recent sense than that. They had their origin in what is now the SW US alongside speakers of other Uto-Aztecan languages, in what to us would be the late first millennium AD. They didn’t arrive in the valley of Mexico until probably the high middle ages of our history, only a few centuries before Contact, at most. They were probably thought primitives by the people already there, since the Aztecs were neither direct descendants of nor [initially] native practitioners of the Olmec/Toltec/Teotihuacan cultural traditions. Think of how the Greeks and Romans thought of Gauls or Germans or, even, how Romanized Gauls later thought of Germans, or later how Romanized Franks thought of the Vikings. Or how the Mesopotamians thought of Persians at first, how the two of them later thought of Arabs, or how Persians and Arabs would first have thought of Turks. Or Chinese of Mongols. [History is replete with this sort of dynamic. I imagine the Igbo or Yoruba have similar views of the Hausa and Fulani right now…]

    For the Aztecs allies/vassals, allying with the Spanish might be compared to the remnants of Rome summoning the Hun to get rid of the Germans, or vice versa. [The game Flavius Aetius was in fact playing for most of his life]. It doesn’t always work to one’s advantage.

    • Replies: @Racerealist88
  129. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Off topic. All the great civilizations of old had emperors or kings.
    The reason there is any democracy at all in the USA comes from
    traditions of northern Europe. Thomas Jefferson researched this:

    A Thing (Old Norse, Old English and Icelandic: þing; German, Dutch: ding; modern Scandinavian languages: ting) was the governing assembly of a Germanic society, made up of the free people of the community presided over by lawspeakers. Its meeting-place was called a thingstead.

    Mathematics and pyramids are all well and good except for the fact that, back when,
    unless you were royalty or priesthood you were a peon.

  130. @Joe Schmoe

    That’s fair enough as far as the artifacts, although we have enough other information to know that the Christian teaching was that Jesus [God] died himself to seal a covenant between Man and God and open a path to an idea of salvation ultimately peaceful and life-affirming in nature, ending the need for any kind of sacrifices in ritual, and that this was for Christians the culmination of a long Jewish religious tradition in which specifically human sacrifice had been considered abhorrent and explicitly unjustified since at least the incident in which God made this point to Abraham and Isaac. So, presuming the latter actually happened in some sense, with or without actual comms from God, that would be over 2500 years pre-Contact.

    I claim no specific expertise on the origin of the information, but it seems we have enough information on not only the Aztecs but also the other early-Mexican, Maya, and indeed Peruvian cultures, from sources other than only a few statues, to indicate the living practice of human sacrifice to varying degrees.

    At one time, I think it was assumed that the Aztecs, though coming late to the party, were actually pro-sacrifice extremists compared to even the other practicing cultures. So we needn’t assume that every one of them kept the home fires burning all the time. I remain struck by the image of the Aztec priests frantically cutting out hearts in increasing numbers as the city fell, desperate to save the world, as they knew it.

    On that, this article struck me as interesting:

    Arguably, a cosmology equally alien to most old world polytheisms and dharmic religion as it is to Abrahamic monotheism. Although perhaps one can see its echo in some Asian shamanism, with which it shared roots. Perhaps this is even what evolves when that shamanistic tradition is left alone to develop into a complex cosmology and pantheon of gods. Regardless, perhaps the darkest idea of cosmology and political philosophy ever imagined. Imagine having this belief system and looking up at the night sky. It’s barely short of HP Lovecraft. I’d be desperate too.

    Or there’s this capsule description of the gods. Whoo-eee. Whatever else may be said of them, this culture was never going to invent either liberalism or libertarianism or worry about trigger warnings.

    The statue above must have been Coatlicue, the Aztecs’ mother-deity. The lady of the skirt of serpents, necklace of human hearts and skulls, etc. I’d rather meet Nyarlathotep in a dark alley.

  131. @Lord Effington III

    Zero is among the greatest advances ever made in math, the foundation of all sciences. The Mayans did good with that. Pity their technological condition among other things limited its application mostly to theory. Still something.

    The Indians [Hindu and Jain divisions] who came up with it in the Old World, building perhaps a little on Egyptian and Babylonian work that may have been known to them and which was millennia older, just had a bigger world waiting to try on the concept and muck about with it.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @utu
  132. @MJJB

    Could that volcanic explosion and crop failures elsewhere help explain the apparently big hole in the story of how Roman-Celtic Britain came to be English speaking in a remarkably short time?

  133. Talha says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Dear WoO,

    Sharp man! It can indeed be argued that the ‘Great Schism’ is paralleled in Islam with the Sunni/Shiah divide, but:
    1) There has never been such a lopsided super-majority in Christianity; Sunnis have constituted anywhere from 85-95% of the Muslims, historically.
    2) This is irrelevant to my argument since Shiah do not recognize the concept of ijma in the same way Sunnis do. The Sunni concept of ijma is part of its core self-identification, the actual name being ‘Ahl us-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah (or Ijma)’:
    “All Muslims are guided by the Sunnah, but Sunnis stress it, as well as consensus (ijma; the full name of Sunnis is Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Ijma, people of the Sunnah and consensus). ”

    Perhaps I should have been clearer that I was talking exclusively about Sunnis because…

    With respect to the issue at hand – legitimacy of Daesh and their philosophy – they claim to be Sunni, thus Shiah opinions are irrelevant to them (and it would be even more damning because, if I were to include Shiah opinions in my assessment, Daesh would be even further marginalized). The problem is that you cannot claim to be part of a group and yet define your praxis (I’m not even going to get into their beliefs) so far outside their boundaries that it beggars your claims of legitimacy. Daesh can indeed claim to be Muslim (I was never arguing that they were apostates), because that has a wide berth, but so could the Khawarij, Qarmatis (who sacked Mecca), etc.

    So, in your example, can a group claim to be Catholic and yet go against centuries and centuries of established Catholic norms (by Pope and Councils)?


  134. @Marcus

    Aren’t you changing your question?

  135. @uslabor

    Fun I suppose if you’ve got the stomach for it.

  136. While advanced in certain areas, the Maya were essentially a stone age culture. Metals were not used to make weapons or tools. Metal objects were used as adornments and as religious artifacts. In fact, chipped obsidian was used for weapons by the Aztecs, which were utterly ineffective against Spanish firearms, steel swords and armor. The Maya used the same Neolithic weapons.

    Human sacrifice was a much a part of the Mayan religion as the Aztecs: Human offerings were made to the Gods with decapitation and heart extraction. While the medieval Catholic Church is not beyond reproach, it represented a Quantum moral leap over the grisly death cult of the Maya. Remnants of this Mesoamerican cult still exist in the bizarre worship of Santo Muerte.

    To compare the Mayan cultural legacy to the scientific and cultural contributions of Europe only shows the historical insignificance and irrelevancy of the Maya. Of course, one can admire their astronomy, architecture and art, while admitting they contributed little of lasting influence.

    • LOL: Marcus
  137. @Karl

    “white guys today & for some time now, have been doing selective-breeding with NorthAmerican Bison.”

    Well I hope that this new white guy/bison hybrid displays more testicular fortitude than what we’ve seen from the millennial generation.

    • LOL: Marcus
    • Replies: @iffen
  138. @Epaminondas

    I recall reading or seeing documentaries about human sacrifices that were not cruel even if the usually young victim was not actually looking forward to the honour. Being left to die in the snow or being killed by a single blow were examples, the former being known in South America before the Spanish conquest.

    • Replies: @Epaminondas
    , @Sardonicus
  139. gwynedd1 says:

    This also worries me. Social progress over time seems to allow for weakness in the individual. This seems to be the primary weakness of our race.

    Take the Cesarean section. In the contemporary world it is seen as a a life saving device. However I see a grim road ahead for a species that must cut their young out them. Today Europeans are the smart ones. In 20 generations , it is easy to project this may not be so.

    • Replies: @Racerealist88
  140. gwynedd1 says:
    @Lord Effington III

    Well, zero is really more than meets the eye. Its actually a collection of concepts including magnitude, power, displacement and commencement. Zero rarely actually means “nothing” , just like negative numbers rarely means less than nothing. 10 apples for example is a simple passive concept. There may be 10 apples rotting under a tree. -10 apples almost always implies active use like needing it for a recipe or a transaction. In fact in would say the same with credit verse money. Money is a passive concept. Credit is a very active concept with intent to employ it. In other words zero and negative numbers implies a state of civilization of balancing equations in active commencement.

    So the need for zero is everything it implies.

  141. iffen says:

    Yes, the fulfillment of the “White Buffalo” myth and legend.

  142. iffen says:

    Thing is, there were no animals to pull them

    How about a pushcart or wheelbarrow?

  143. Outstanding article.

    One point to add, the wheel wasn’t conducive to how their city states were situated as well, mainly how they built their roads.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  144. @Priss Factor

    Yes. They had contact with the Olmecs and traded culture and even people with them. Look into La Venta.

  145. @Kyle a

    They weren’t long gone. There were still some left. When the Spanish landed on the Yucatan in 1519, one Spaniard had smallpox and it spread throughout mesoamerica, and per the Mayan writings, population levels declined 70 to 90 percent.

  146. @Anonymous

    I had a discussion about this a few months ago and the conclusion we came to was similar to yours.

    Basically how civilization is set up is not conducive to how they genetically are.

  147. iffen says:


    Do we know which group likely domesticated the turkey and muscovy duck?

    • Replies: @Racerealist88
  148. Clyde says:
    @Kyle a

    Actually the Aztecs were the torturing savages. Mayans, not so much.

    Correct! It’s amusing how Mel Gibson made an Aztec-Mayan mashup in Apocalypto. Still a great movie. I read Conquest of Mexico by William H. Prescott in the 1990s and it gave me good ideas what present day Mexicans are up to.

    The Aztecs were the ones who would sacrifice 20,000 captives in a year for their blood thirsty their sun god. Who would not rise tomorrow without being fed the blood of human sacrifices.

    • Replies: @Racerealist88
  149. @random observer

    3 waves out of Asia. And 2 our of the Pacific with one being questionable. Ie the Solutrean hypothesis is trash.

  150. @Sardonicus

    They used iron weapons around 900 AD.

    • Replies: @Sardonicus
  151. @gwynedd1

    Meaning that selection for smaller heads and brains will occur due to no natural births?

  152. Bill says:

    The responses to your point are depressing and evince the lack of imagination Fred is warning against: “[zero and positional & exponential notation] seem natural to us because were are steeped in them from the first grade”

    On the other hand, Fred’s apparent point, Indios are smart because pyramids, is obviously a clever-silly. Something interesting connects together the facts that Indios are not smart and that they had some pretty impressive civilizational achievements 3000 years ago. A long dysgenic process of some kind? A Brahmin caste which was washed away after taboos against mixing were broken down? A Brahmin caste which was slaughtered, Tutsi-style? Who knows?

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  153. KenH says:

    Just because Mayans achieved some great things 500 or more years ago doesn’t mean their descendants are the equals of Europeans today. Why have the Indians of Mayan descent not progressed since their zenith around 750 A.D., but Europeans have made giant strides? That is the real question.

    Genetic change and/or decline is the only plausible explanation unless Fred wants to believe that some omnipotents God elects to disfavor certain people while favoring others. Just like the people living in Rome and Italy today are genealogically unrelated to the Romans who defeated Hannibal and destroyed Carthage or who lived during the time of Julius Caesar. Even the Romans at the time of the empire’s fall in 476 A.D were Roman in name only. Civil wars, plagues and low birthrates among leading Roman families took its toll on the founding Roman stock at least 200 years before the ultimate fall and they were largely replaced by former slaves and migrants from other parts of the empire.

    White nationalists, pro-white individuals and Europeans in general are well aware of the skeletons in our own past and that we’ve passed through barbarous phases in our history. But that doesn’t mean that Mexicans of Indian descent should be allowed mass entry into the USA because at one time they achieved great things. Or, that White American should acceded to race replacement policies under the guise of a tolerant immigration system.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  154. joe webb says:

    Besides the general lunacy of the race traitor Fred… (“What pulled me up short was their architecture.”

    What Fred on Nothing seems to shorted on is understanding the nature of a Bell Curve. The average may be low, like amerindian at about 83, but the right tail allows for enough smarties to do some good work.

    That would appear to be true of everywhere except Africa where the average of 67 to 70 is so low that any smarties were probably killed off as witches, etc.

    If you have sufficient Order enforced by military and terror, the few smarties on the right tail of the Bell Curve, can accomplish something, like architecture. This is true all over the third world but for Africa..again. But that is about it. Zero otherwise, unless you count population control thru war and cannibalism.

    However, never has the Third World or East Asia (smarties) come up with liberty. Liberty is a white genetic component, and only White. Fred is apparently white but does not seem to care about the savagery of Mexico, the failed state nature that is coming there.

    Of course, he can beat it back to the states with his bank accounts in yanqui land, etc.

    Fred the Traitor, and mexer-lover. Maybe Trump will grab his passport.

    Joe Webb.

  155. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Kyle a

    Half of them have long gone to places like Los Angeles, Dalton, Georgia, and Fort Payne, Alabama. And they still speak Mayan languages. It is one of those mysteries, though, what made them collapse civilizationally.

  156. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Mayans can justly say, “We were kings”.

  157. syonredux says:

    In the European witch hunts, sort of 1450-1750, some 500,000 were killed depending on whose numbers you accept, mostly by burning alive.

    Fred, those figures are completely wrong.The actual number was under 100,000, with most estimates being in the 50,000 range.

    And witches in England and Anglo-America were hanged, not burned.

  158. KenH says:

    In the European witch hunts, sort of 1450-1750, some 500,000 were killed depending on whose numbers you accept, mostly by burning alive.

    This is a false claim as per Wikipedia estimates range from 35k To 100K. Even if we use the 100K figure that only comes out to 333 people on an annual basis over a 300 year period which hardly qualifies as a bloodthirst approaching what the Mayans and Aztecs were known for.

    The classical period of witchhunts in Early Modern Europe and Colonial North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1450 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years’ War, resulting in an estimated 35,000 to 100,000 executions.[3]

  159. @uslabor

    Missed the point, did we? We can discuss the propriety of torturing criminals, even ones who DESERVE to be tortured, but can we discuss the propriety of human sacrifice? That is beyond discussion. And that is your difference.

    • Replies: @uslabor
  160. @Racerealist88

    Cite your source for this astonishing statement? Even if true, which I doubt, the Aztecs had no metal weapons or tools to use against their Spanish conquerors. The Neolithic Mayas were no more technologically advanced than their successors the Aztecs.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Jim
  161. @Wizard of Oz

    Any society that promotes frequent and widely practiced human sacrifice is really only a few rungs above the level of cannibalism. Such societies can in no way be compared to advanced civilizations like those of the Greco-Roman era. Perhaps someone can direct me to the Mayan equivalents of Aristotle, Julius Caesar, or Horace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  162. Marcus says:
    @Lord Effington III

    The current uncontrolled mass immigration benefits no one but the extremely rich of both regions. As for Spanish rule: Catholicism with its formality and deep Latin European roots seems to have been a poor fit for most Amerinds, and especially the Central Americans, who are now converting to evangelical protestantism in huge numbers (I think Guatemala is close to 50% Protestant now). A Latin American pontiff was probably chosen to try to stem the tide of defections.

    • Replies: @Clyde
  163. @Wizard of Oz

    I don’t know about the Maya, but many of the sacrifices for the Aztecs were prisoners of war, and were far from willing. I even recall that a few captured Spaniards were sacrificed to the Aztecs bloodthirsty gods. There was a huge pyramid of skulls of the victims of these sacrifices. Frequently,
    I believe, the priests skinned their victims and wore the skins as part of a religious ritual. I see the Catholic religion, what ever its faults, as a mega-improvement over the blood-thirsty death cults of the Maya and Aztecs.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Wizard of Oz
  164. @Sardonicus

    Also, contrary to popular belief, give Aztecs beat the Spanish numerous times and only won because they had the help of neighboring tribes that the Aztecs oppressed.

  165. Marcus says:

    Wouldn’t surprise me if some of these Latin Pentecostal churches incorporate human sacrifice in the near future as the Indios revert to their true nature.

  166. @Bill

    It’s my personal opinion that since the “Natives” are Siberian and evolved in Siberia, that when they crossed into America that they still had a high IQ. But due to thousands of years in a hitter climate their IQ dropped. Not to mention the elites probably didn’t have as many kids as the proles did.

  167. Talha says:

    We can’t really know, the destruction of their culture (even language) was pretty exhaustive:
    “Diego de Landa was a Spanish priest who was given the task of converting the Mayan people to Catholicism, and in the process almost singlehandedly destroyed the Mayan language.”
    “De Landa accomplished this through burning books and religious idols that would have helped to give insight to the language and other aspects of Mayan life.”


    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  168. @Abelard Lindsey

    On what basis is the relative merit of continued (flooding) immigration to the USA dependent on explaining why Mestizos lag East Asians in success under the USA’s system?

    The USA is not short of anything being brought in by Mestizos or, for that matter, anyone else.

    Maybe a moratorium on all immigration would result in more AMERICANS being employed, and at higher wages if the job market wasn’t sloshing with job seekers from the world over.

    How about we TRY it? See what happens?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  169. @random observer

    The better question is, will the West suicide via displacement level immigration and as a result see all of humanity drift backwards to the highest “accomplishments” of the replacement peoples?

    Anyone stupid enough to think Western successes (obviously desired by the millions of people invading Europe, Canada & the USA) can be reproduced by the invaders simply because “magic dirt,” well, enough said.

    There are no golden eggs without those who lay them. If they who produce what everyone wants are not almost entirely “white males,” who are they?

    • Replies: @random observer
  170. @Talha

    I can only imagine the type of information that was in the burned codecies.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @Jim
  171. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Abelard Lindsey

    The Mayans appear to have had a society that was able to talent-scout and employ the best and the brightest in the capital city through a system of Imperial patronage. Absolute monarchies can be good at that, (e.g. Renaissance France and Italy) if they’re inclined to bother.

    The correct question to ask is, have the present societies where the Mayan descendants live been doing the same over the last 400 years? It doesn’t seem to me that they’re making any particular attempt to find, educate, or employ talented native people, and the fact is, poor societies with chaotic governments/living conditions are not very good at this. Also, a very important factor is that opportunities are often going to people of Spanish descent who are connected to elites, not the native Indians.

    • Replies: @in the middle
  172. vinteuil says:

    Lot, you should change your handle to Job. Your patience with Unz is remarkable.

  173. @Romanian

    May be they were not vaccinated nor forced to use fluoride in their toothpaste or their drinking water. Nor their food radiated and or maintained in a frozen state for months. I encountered several ‘graduated’ people who can’t write or read properly. So, we have it, the ‘great’ american nightmare in our education system and our drinking/eating habits.

    Just sayin’….

  174. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    North American Indians had to deal with the ‘surviving winter problem’ much the way the Germanic tribes in pre-Roman Europe did. It’s not surprising that both areas lagged, culturally speaking.

    In Latin America, they were able to raise more food crops with extended growing seasons, create higher population densities, and thus develop more sophisticated societies, exactly the way the people living around the Mediterranean basin did, and for the same reasons.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  175. @Anon

    Also, a very important factor is that opportunities are often going to people of Spanish descent who are connected to elites, not the native Indians.

    I have still to meet a worst racist than the Spanish descendants in Mexico. They treat their Natives horrible and when they cry about the treatment they get here, It pissed me off, because I saw how they look at natives in Guadalajara, and it is reprehensible big time. Natives in Mexico are oppressed, discriminated and disrespected in a way that will embitter any human being. It is horrible indeed.

  176. @Priss Factor

    I noticed you based all your bla bla, bla, in ‘movies’. Well, what the ‘European’ Belgians did in the Congo comes to mind. For that matter, all colonizing European nations did.

    when you say that the Mayas sacrificed ‘innocents’ you base your idea on a Mel Gibson Movie. I am sure you also believe that the Spaniards at the end of the movie, also were clean cut good looking types, and not the dregs that they were and looked. Well, back to the movies..since movies is where we get our world view, and the truth..

    • Replies: @Jim
  177. Joe Wong says:
    @Kyle a

    Comparing to the barbarism practiced by the Japanese during the wars and before the wars Aztecs’ torturing and butchering might seems child play. Aztecs doing barbarism to please their Gods, while the Japanese was doing barbarism for the purpose of genocide and bloodthirsty. The Japanese is still denying the war crimes they committed against humanity, if you call Aztecs savages, what would you call someone who is more barbaric than the Aztecs while denying their sins?

  178. MarkinLA says:
    @random observer

    Zero isn’t important by itself. What is important is having a placeholder in a base-X numbering system. However, the Romans were pretty good civil engineers without one.

    • Replies: @random observer
  179. Dan says:

    I agree. Good ol’ boy Fred trashes his own kind from what few of his articles I’ve read at Lew Rockwell–just for fun of course, right?–setting up a straw man in this article to do it again. And you can bet your last dollar the only Mestizos this phony knows are either cutting his grass or on their knees cleaning his toilets.

  180. Ancient Greeks really stood out as creative and intelligent. Modern Greeks, not so much. Same with the Ancient Sumerians vs. modern Iraqis, including the Marsh Arabs that are supposed to be the descendants of the Sumerians. Lots of examples. When a society loses it, they really lose it.

  181. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountian"] says:


    White Nationalist-Alt Types have an obsession with IQ test scores. I find this kind of strange. If the fundamental issue is race replacement immigration policy, then the IQ test psychometric jibber-jabber is completely irrelevant.

    Some White Nationalist-Alt Right Types have a serious Asian fetish which explains their fetish for IQ psychometrics(Jared Taylor).

    IQ tests are a collection of meaningless math and logic puzzles given to young children. The deep problems of math..physics…engineering..are interesting because of the context in which they exist..otherwise there is 0 interest in a particular problem. Context is everything.

    I submit that IQ test score research is at the bottom in terms of scientific depth. And here is why:hypothetically in a racially homogeneous society with unbounded resources and $$$$$$$$$$$$….outside a few Asperger afflicted tards, there would be almost no interests in IQ tests. IQ tests enthusiasm is always framed at the most fundamental level in terms of scarce educational money being spend wisely-we don’t want to waste the educational money on the intellectually dull. But this puts the IQ test score and human intelligence debate in the realm of political economy…that is to say, about the political and economic organization of Society. IQ Test score enthusiasm is inseparable from the type of political and economic system that IQ Testing Enthusiasts are enamoured off. I’m giving a variation of Chomsky’s argument against IQ testing. And I completely agree with Chomsky on the irrelevance and dangers-academic tracking-of IQ testing.

    Rhazib Kahn was interviewed on NPR after the most recent Fields Medals awards. They should have interviewed Fields Medalist Terrence Tao who has had a very interesting 7 year long conversation on his blog about mathematical ability and IQ Test Scores.

    Richard Feynman was very impressed with Mayan Mathematics.

    If Alt Right Celebrity Richard Spencer wants to waste his time arguing about IQ test score psychometrics..he is 1) a dullard…and 2)a fool…

    • Replies: @5371
    , @utu
  182. @RaceRealist88

    Of course, the Aztecs beat the Spanish numerous times because there were only hundreds of Spaniards against thousands of Aztecs. You are correct that many neighboring tribes were against the brutal Aztecs and their contribution may have indeed been decisive.

  183. MarkinLA says:
    @random observer

    I was riding my motorcycle one year around the country and decided to visit Sturgis. I left at night and stupidly passed on the only motel near there and rode through the night. The area had just had a large rainstorm a few days prior to my arrival and the place still had pockets of water.

    There was so much bug juice on my fairing windshield and my visor that I couldn’t see out of wither and had to open my visor up and try and not get hit by all the flying bugs. I had to stop for gas as well as clean my windshield. When I got to the gas station, it was like a scene from a 50’s horror movie with all the these bugs crawling on the gas station outer walls and buzzing around the lights.

    Nobody could successfully farm that place without effective insect control.

    When people throw that 25 million number at me I ask them what proof do they have. The only thing they come up with is a Mississippian settlement that died out around 1350 that is estimated to contain 10-15,000 inhabitants. My response is good, find me 999 more of those and you might have an argument. There is no doubt that the population near present day Mexico City may have been significant (I save seen estimates of Teotihuacan at 250,00) but elsewhere in NA, I doubt it. Don’t some people also speculate that the Aztecs were really doing ritualized cannibalism as a food source with all those people they captured and sacrificed? They were probably at their population limit given their technology.

  184. MarkinLA says:

    I won’t pay to read it but the abstract only talks about copper and copper objects, none of which are weapons. Maybe there were a few arrowheads that weren’t mentioned but if there is no alloying to make bronze, copper isn’t much use against a Toledo steel sword.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  185. MarkinLA says:

    When civilizations die a lot of information goes with it. European medicine was probably more backward than Roman medicine until around 1890 or so. However, there isn’t any proof that the Maya or Aztecs were doing anything more advanced than other civilizations that died out. We know that advanced surgeries (even brain surgeries) were carried out by Egyptians, Indians, Persians, and others, yet it was all lost to later civilizations. I doubt there was anything of real value to even the Spanish when they arrived.

    It is a crime that an entire written history of a culture was wiped out, but by the time of the Spanish, none of the successors of the Maya were doing anything of an advanced nature, no matter what was written.

    • Replies: @utu
  186. MarkinLA says:

    As I recall, the Lakota were chased to Canada and given refuge by the Canadian government and decided that winters there were too harsh compared to South Dakota and came back. My understanding is the Lakota were invaders from southern Canada below the Hudson Bay who came in and pushed the Crow out of their ancestral home so at least the Lakota a history of being in more northern regions.

    The point being that there were likely very few Amerindians in Canada other than those around the Iroquois confederacy and in British Columbia.

  187. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The idea that the Amerindians were dumbified by the Spaniards is problematic. First, today we would be observing an IQ gap in favor of the former, which is not what the IQ scholars or the PISA scores reveal. Second, they wouldn’t have been easily conquered by the latter, who were in the very process of creating the first Empire where the sun would never set.

    On the broader subject, there’s hardly anything extraordinary in the Mayan example. If one looks at the current descendants of the Babylonians, the Egyptians or the Indians, one observes the same phenomenon. Past performance is no guarantee of future performance, either in stocks or in civilizational achievements.

  188. @Jeff77450

    I have difficulty understanding why people bother denying that IQ exists and that different groups have different averages: Ashkenazi Jews, 110; north-east Asians, 105/; Caucasians, 100; the various brown races, 80-90; black Americans, 85; black Africans, 70

    Here’s a compiliation of national IQ from a study in 1981:
    Holland 109.4
    Germany 109.3
    Poland 108.3
    Sweden 105.8

    From V. Buj, Person. & Individ. Diff., Vol. 2, pp. 168 to 169, 1981
    Subjects >16 yrs. old tested on the Cattell Culture Fair Test 3 (16 SD), standardized in the USA (IQ=100).

    • Replies: @Jim
  189. @woodNfish

    Look at any nation colonized by the Catholic Spanish and you will find corruption a even worse than ours and rampant poverty.

    Protestant America has indian reservations. How do our natives compare to South American Natives?

  190. KenH says:

    The Mayans were no strangers to violence and bloodletting and treated neighboring peoples just as harshly as the Spanish conquistadors treated them. Arguably much worse since the Mayans played a sort of bowling or soccer with the severed heads of their enemies. The Mayans were already in steep decline by the time the Spanish arrived and they merely delivered the coup de grace to a civilization seemingly it its death throes.

    Like the Amerindians in the lower 48 states, the Mayans waged internecine war upon other Indians and enslaved and sacrificed them. Left leaning historians and other enemies of Western civilization just shrug that off. But it’s suddenly a crime against humanity when white, Westerners wage war on the saintly Indians. It’s not as if Central and Southern Mexico were in a state of peace, prosperity and plenty and the indigenous Indians were living fairy tale lives when the conquistadors landed.

    We’ll never know the scale of slaughter between the Mayans, Aztec, Toltecs and other lesser tribes from between 100 A.D. and the time of the Spanish landing in the 16th century and can only speculate. Probably the only thing that prevented these tribes from wiping each other out is the lack of destructive enough weaponry to do so.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Jim
    , @Jim
  191. @Ron Unz

    One problem with the Internet is that people have gotten too lazy to read books, and just click on colorful websites instead…

    Is your dislike of color why doesn’t animated gif avatars?

  192. @MarkinLA

    Here’s a better source:

    “Notwithstanding the popular belief that the Maya did not have metal, most museums will have a small display of copper and bronze objects in their Mesoamerican section. We were fortunate enough to have been granted a research visit at the Peabody Museum at Harvard in April of 2007. During this visit, we saw and handled blades and knives of various sizes and configurations from their collections in storage. Some are rough and green with age, but some are still smooth and relatively uncorroded, indicative of an alloy like bronze. We also saw large copper spearheads, something we had not known of before and did not expect.

    Those who still assert that the Maya had no metal implements can not have visited many museums or read the Spanish priest Diego de Landa’s description of metal blades and tools.2 While they did primarily use stone and obsidian as cutting blades, it is certain that they had weapons and tools of metal as well, even though these date from centuries after the Book of Mormon. Just how common these were will probably remain unanswered, as the damp climate of Mesoamerica is not conducive to the preservation of metals.”

    It was definitely possible to have metal weapons in Mesoamerica. With the other achievements of the Maya, of course they had metal working and metal weapons.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  193. @KenH

    I seem to recall reading that the Maya were introduced to human sacrifice by the Aztecs but it was the Toltecs who introduced it to them.

    One of the more interesting things Fred didn’t bring up was how their ball game mimicked the galactic alignment.

    I’d bet they killed a lot of people, are there any estimates?

    • Replies: @Jim
  194. @Anonymous

    LOL!!!!!! Jack Chick. 40 years ago, in high school, my friends and I came across some Jack Chick comics and fell all over ourselves laughing.

    BTW…..Did you know he’s still alive at 92?

  195. anon • Disclaimer says:

    if they pray 5 times a day , accept allah as god and mohamad as his prophet and endeavor to make pilgramige to mecca, than they are muslims regardless of their other activities .

    nice try at Takkiya/tawriya/kitman though

  196. aandrews says:

    Gosh, after reading this I’ve totally changed my mind about the open-borders mestizo invasion.

    • Replies: @iffen
  197. syonredux says:
    @Ron Unz

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.”

    And then let’s compare this to the racial composition of Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    According to the CIA FACTBOOK, Mexico’s racial breakdown is:Mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

    And 90% + of the people that Mexico sends to the USA are Mestizo ( mean IQ 94.3) and Amerind (mean IQ 83.3)……

    And the Hispanic population keeps on growing:

    There were 55.3 million Hispanics in the United States in 2014, comprising 17.3% of the total U.S. population. In 1980, with a population of 14.8 million, Hispanics made up just 6.5% of the total U.S. population.

    Since 1960, the nation’s Latino population has increased nearly ninefold, from 6.3 million then to 55.3 million by 2014. It is projected to grow to 119 million by 2060, according to the latest projections from the U.S. Census Bureau

    The share of the population that is Hispanic has been steadily increasing over the past half century. In 2014, Hispanics made up 17.3% of the total U.S. population, up from 3.5% in 1960. According to the latest projections from the U.S. Census Bureau (2014), the Hispanic share of the U.S. population is expected to reach 28.6% by 2060.

    Mexican-origin Hispanics have always been the largest Hispanic-origin group in the U.S. In 1860, for example, among the 155,000 Hispanics living in the U.S., 81.1% were of Mexican origin—a historic high. Since then the origins of the nation’s Hispanic population have diversified as growing numbers of immigrants from other Latin American nations and Puerto Rico settled in the U.S. For example, between 1930 and 1980, Hispanics from places other than Mexico nearly doubled their representation among U.S. Hispanics, from 22.4% to 40.6%. But with the arrival of large numbers of Mexican immigrants in the 1980s and 1990s, the Mexican share among Hispanics grew, rising to a recent peak of 65.7% in 2008 and staying about steady since then.

    The Anglo-American future looks quite bleak…..

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  198. @Sardonicus

    Also in total, 300 thousand Spanish fought the Aztecs. Don’t forget about smallpox killing off a majority of the Aztec population.

    Moreover, they had courts where people were punished for crimes. For a man convicted of a crime, they would cut some hair as short hair was a sign of disrespect and people would know that he did wrong.

    The Maya were a pretty complex civilization. Concept of 0 independently, independently creating one of the first written languages, the long count calendar, etc.

  199. Marcus says:

    Got any sources besides the “Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum?” Do they claim the Mayans were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel as well?

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  200. Just for the record Fred, my dislike for Mexicans has little to do with my assessment of their intelligence (and I’ve known a few who were quite bright), but much to do with their incurably lowbrow outlook and inveterate habits of lying, manipulating, and backstabbing.

    Mexicans seem to have great difficulty being classy; that is the real problem. Mexicans are not necessarily stupid, but they tend to use their intelligence to be devious rather than creative. Mexicans are not necessarily lazy, but they will often put more effort into scheming about how to avoid a task that it would have taken to complete it. They are forever involved in some sort of free-floating poker game, the point of which is to foist all labors and troubles and expenses onto someone else. This whole basic attitude—call it Mexicanism if you will—seems to be an existential requirement of the Mexican culture.

    Mexicanism is a parasite which many Whites don’t have any immunity to. When Mexicans come to America they find a ready supply of prey among Whites used to operating in a high-trust, deferential social milieu. In order to protect White Americans it is necessary to both keep Mexicans away from us as much as possible and to teach Whites to develop their immunity to Mexican scheming.

    All the chattering about IQ and HBD is really just a subtextual discussion of these cultural incompatibilities.

    • Agree: Clyde
  201. @Marcus

    I found sculptured lions, vases and other things, so that I do not understand how anyone can say that these people had no tools. I also found two immense statues of men, carved of a single stone, nude save for the waist-covering the Indians use.

    They had hatchets of a certain metal and of this shape, fastened in a handle of wood. These served them both as arms in war, and then at home for working wood. The metal being soft, they gave it an edge by beating with a stone. They had short lances a man’s height in length, pointed with very hard flint; besides these they had no other arms.

    They had a certain soft brass which, when founded with a light mixture of gold yielded them hatchets and the little rattles they used in their dances, as well as a certain sort of chisels which they used in making the idols and boring out the blowpipes, as in this figure in the margin; they use the blowpipe a great deal, and shoot well with it. This brass and other placques or sheets, of greater hardness, is part of their traffic in Tabasco for their idols. They had among them no other.

  202. Clyde says:

    It’s always been my understanding that the whole human sacrifice thing was about pleasing the god(s) and trying to influence him/her/them to do or not do something. In other words, from their point of view human sacrifice was done for pragmatic reasons and not just because they could.

    My take is the whole population got their rocks off from these satanic human sacrifice ceremonies. Sure it was done for the Aztec sun god but also for entertainment purposes. The Indians of North America liked to torment/torture captives. Why? Because they liked doing it. But the Aztecs were in a league of their own as far as the numbers sacrificed to satanic pagan gods.

  203. Clyde says:

    Good ol’ irresponsibly glib Fred. The “Islamists” of ISIS and al-Nusrah he terms “Muslims,” whereas in fact they are evidently an aberration. They are not Muslims according to their own orthodox authorities.

    Utter nonsense. ISIS emulates the later life of Mohammad the warlord when he led his armies, going out killing and conquering. The faithful Muslim must emulate the exemplary life of the most perfect human being. Muhammad.

    • Replies: @Talha
  204. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    Is there any evidence of a correlation between IQ and achievement? Richard Feynman is said to have had an IQ of 123, which is OK, but not exactly astronomical, yet he was one of America’s greatest theoretical physicists. The Termites, on the other hand, with IQs of around 150, never did anything of the slightest interest, so I understand.

    Anyhow, given the Flynn Effect, which demonstrates the existence of important cultural or environmental components to intelligence, what is the point of comparing Australian Abos with Harvard graduates, or adherents of Black Lives Matter? All that such comparisons seem to show is that different groups differ in both culture and environment, which we knew already.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  205. Clyde says:

    As for Spanish rule: Catholicism with its formality and deep Latin European roots seems to have been a poor fit for most Amerinds, and especially the Central Americans, who are now converting to evangelical protestantism in huge numbers (I think Guatemala is close to 50% Protestant now).

    Evangelicals do well in the Philippines and with Filipinos living in America. My friend is a Catholic guy who married a Catholic Filipina 25 years ago. After seven or so years living in America she went over to the Evangelicals.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  206. @Sardonicus

    No doubt. It sounds more fun for sadists than the simple painless rituals.

  207. @RaceRealist88

    The fact that the Maya only had wood and stone to work with prompts the thought that purely wooden wheels wouldn’t have seemed so useful if you didn’t have a soft, or very smooth hard , surface to traverse. It woud have neen extremely inconvenient to have to mend a wheel without even metal tools high in mountains where travel was on rough stone surfaces.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  208. @Ron Unz

    Once you start looking at South America you know that the Amazon jungle still hasn’t been cut back to uncover the areas occupied by pre Conquest peoples who succumbed to Eurasian diseases.

  209. @syonredux

    The use of Raven’s Progressive Matrices is presumably regarded as culture fair though that requires some big assumptions.

    What I find really puzzling is how Flynn’s own favoured explanations of the Flynn Effect
    are consistent with the Flynn Effect being manifested on such culture fair tests as Ravens.

    At least the explanation that modernising, urbanising people tend to think scientifically** seems to have nothing to do with Ravens Progressive Matrices.

    **the rural people who in 1895 would have said foxes and rabbits had in common “Hunting” would by 1955 have said they were both “Mammals”.

    Any comment or explanation from the experts?

  210. @dc.sunsets

    “All” means you lose the benefit of smart Indians creating new Silicon Valley and other cutting edge businesses. Do really think doubling the employment of <90 IQ Americans would go anywhere remotely near compensating for that self-inflicted harm?

    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
  211. @Anonymous

    Yucatan 400 AD vs Germania 400 AD; alt-right please explain.

    Yes, explain why Mayans didn’t have iron tools and the wheel and Germania did.

    With metal woodworking tools you can have more sophisticated carpently than with stone tools.

    Dejbjerg Wagon with axle and lightweight spoked wheels (Not 400 AD, but 100 BC).

    With stone woodworking tools the best kind of boat you can make is a dugout canoe by hollowing out a tree trunk. A mast and sails ar out of the question.
    Mayan dugout canoe.

    With iron carpentry tools you can make a proper wooden ship with sails.
    Nydam Boat (200-400 AD)
    Nydam Boat exterior
    Nydam Boat interior

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  212. @Marcus

    Yucatan is a low latitude tropical rainforest with high rainfall and no winter. Germany is at a higher latitude, is colder and experiences snow and winters. With antiquity-era technology, crop yields were much lower in marginal conditions.

    Berlin heating degree days: 5260
    Mérida heating degree days: 38

    Berlin heating degree days August: 35
    Mérida heating degree days Febrary: 22

    Mérida average precipitation: 36
    Berlin average precipitation: 22

    • Replies: @Marcus
  213. iffen says:

    after reading this I’ve totally changed my mind about the open-borders mestizo invasion.

    Which way?

  214. Talha says:

    The faithful Muslim must emulate the exemplary life of the most perfect human being. Muhammad.


    ISIS emulates the later life of Mohammad

    That is your opinion which counts about as much on this subject as the guy who came last week to fix my front door. Why have scores upon scores of individuals (Muslim scholars that have dedicated decades of their lives to studying the religion and his life) come out against them?

    Why is Daesh hunting down the scholars that disagree with them?

    Maybe these scholars know something you don’t? I keep on asking people, pony up, bring us the names of qualified Muslim scholars who support these guys and consider them legitimate.


    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @Clyde
  215. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:


    You gave a very stupid response. What Professor Tao wrote about Trump is irrelevant to his views on Mathemstical ability and IQ Test scores….And having read in many other places on the internet about what his mathematician colleagues think of IQ tests, I would conclude that a majority of Mathematicians don’t take IQ Tests very seriously….Terrence Tao was honest enough to let a uncensored discussion about Trump take place. For the record, I am not a Trump supporter…Bill Gates, after having done an excellent job of exterminating Native Born White America Labor….POTUS Trump gives Bill Gates a massive tax break.

    I’ll go with the research Mathemsticians over the frog-faced intellectual nonentity Linda Gottfriedson over at the University of Delaware.

    For the record..I was banned from commenting on American Renaissance by Jared Taylor for the mortal sin of destroying IQ Test Score Enthusiasts in debate in the AR comments section….via Jared’s comment moderator the Asianphile John Engleman….

    • Replies: @5371
    , @Alden
  216. Fred Z says:

    Quite right. John Derbyshire, with whom Fred seems to be feuding, makes it clear that the argument is statistical.

    Derb says, and I agree, that the real questions are related to a rise in the enstupidated proportion of your population. I see sub-issues namely how stupid are they, what percentage are stupid and is average IQ an adequate measure for the ability of the less stupid to lead and control those more stupid.

    The other question I have been wrestling with is whether or not intelligence is all that much of a survival trait for human beings. Only God knows whether stupid violence will serve us better in the long term. Intelligence certainly makes us wealthy and comfortable, but who says that’s a good thing for the long term? So far it seems also to make us weak, feckless and lazy.

  217. @KenH

    Genetic change and/or decline is the only plausible explanation

    Certainly not the only explanation. Their crappy satanic religion is a much better explanation. Look at Western Europe: only 100 years of satanism as an official religion and already their civilization has collapsed.

    • Agree: Bill
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @KenH
  218. @Hippopotamusdrome

    They had the wheel and iron tools. See my replies here.

  219. @Wizard of Oz

    They had iron tools.

    I do agree with you though. The way the roads in their city states were set up were not conducive to actually using the wheel the way it’s made to. But they definitely knew how it worked as evidenced by the child’s toy. Also no beasts of burden.

    • Replies: @Jim
  220. @RaceRealist88

    So “three hundred thousand Spanish” fought the Aztecs? Cite your source for this absurd number?
    It sounds like your talking about D Day, not Cortes and his small band of soldiers. Check your history, Cortes had 550 soldiers:

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  221. @RaceRealist88

    Your citation is for the Mayan use of copper not Iron

  222. Marcus says:

    Maybe an exaggeration, but I’ve read that Brazil could be majority Protestant in 25-30 years.

    • Replies: @Clyde
  223. Jim says:

    No, the Maya had no iron tools and no knowledge of iron whatsoever. Where is all this nonsense about the Maya coming from?

    • Replies: @Jim
    , @Clyde
    , @Marcus
  224. Clyde says:

    Peace and you are a good guy. Maybe even an Ahmadiyya….nah
    But all infidels should know that Muhammad’s later Medina verses abrogate his earlier peaceful verses when he lived in Mecca and got hardly any followers. So one night Mohamed picked up and left *Hejira* with his thirteen or so companions. Fleeing from Mecca to Medina where he became a success as a false religion preaching general in his army. Dividing up booty with his army which means tangible items and female sex slaves. Koran says Mummahed must get 20% of all booty

    • Replies: @Talha
  225. Clyde says:

    In brief: You get it. The evangelical version can be more emotional so more appealing to these southern peoples. So they chuck their Catholicism for this.

  226. Jim says:

    There has been a number of references here by various commenters as to the use of metals by Mesoamericans. Yes they certainly did use some metals such as copper, gold and silver and a number of others. They had no knowledge of iron or bronze. Their metallurgy was way behind what was achieved in Eurasia thousands of years before the Christian era.

    For the most part Mesoamericans relied much more on obsidian or other minerals for tools rather than metals. Metals were used more for ornamental or artistic purposes.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  227. Clyde says:

    Did the Mayans even have the wheel? I have read that no new world Indians north or south used the wheel. A pretty basic invention if the Mayans could see the night sky revolving around an axis.

    • Replies: @Jim
    , @RaceRealist88
  228. Marcus says:

    Not all of Germany is Berlin though. And the Mayans would have had to deal with tropical diseases, predators, and all encompassing foliage, surely a more challenging environment than the Rhineland! Ofc southern and western Germany did have interesting cultures at this time, despite the lack of monumental architecture or writing, and they probably would’ve wiped the floor with the Mesoamericans due to excellent metallurgy and stronger physiques

  229. Marcus says:

    The book of Mormon apparently

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  230. Jim says:

    The comments on this blog are full of utter nonsense about Mesoamerican cultures. It’s true that Mesoamerican cultures tended to militarism but the “scale of slaughter” between Toltecs, Aztecs, and Mayans doesn’t seem to have been very great. The Aztecs came after the Toltecs and it is not clear that Aztecs and Toltecs ever fought each other. There is some evidence that Toltecs may have invaded the Yucatan and ruled over parts of it for a while but no evidence of any mass population replacement.

    Their is evidence that groups from the Valley of Mexico established control at various times over some of the Highland Mayan cities in early Mayan times but no evidence of any significant population replacement.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @RaceRealist88
    , @KenH
  231. Jim says:

    A toy artifact shows that the principle of the wheel was understood by some Mesoamericans but there is no evidence of the use of the wheel for practical purposes. Wheels are largely useless unless one has prepared surfaces ie. roads.

  232. Jim says:

    The Aztecs were very late arrivals in the Valley of Mexico. Human sacrifice existed in Mesoamerican cultures long before the ancestors of the Aztecs began their trek southward from the Great American Basin to the Valley of Mexico.

  233. Jim says:

    The Maya and just as much Mesoamerican cultures in general including the peripheral areas such as Jalisco and the American Southwest are certainly fascinating but comparisons of them in complexity with Eurasian civilizations are simply silly.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  234. @Sardonicus

    You are correct. I seem to remember reading an absurdly high number like what I said years ago.

    But what really beat the Aztecs was disease and drought.

    There is evidence of droughts happening in cycles in mesoamerica. This is also one reason for the decline of the Maya.

  235. iffen says:

    Don’t give up on us, Jim, kept the good info coming.

    Do you know a good reference that has as its focus the interactions and possible connections among various Mesoamerican groups, chronologically and contemporaneously?

    • Replies: @Jim
  236. @Jim

    It’s established that the Toltecs taught the Maya human sacrifice. Before then they didn’t do it.

    • Replies: @Jim
  237. Jim says:

    Endless nonsense about the Maya. They were not in “steep decline” or in their “death throes” at the time of the arrival of the Spanish.

    One thing to understand about the collapse of the Highland Maya which took place long before the Spanish is that it seems to have been restricted to the cities where probably less than 1% of the population lived. There is no evidence of much change in the life of most of the Highland Maya. The collapse was a collapse of the ruling elites and seems to have been an internal collapse as there is no sign of foreign invasion.

    • Replies: @KenH
  238. @Clyde

    Yes. They knew of it and made kids toys with it but it wasn’t conducive to how their roads and city states were set up.

  239. @Marcus

    No. There are other citations. Just because the book of Mormon or LDS people cite it doesn’t mean it’s not true.

  240. @Jim

    Mesoamericans used bronze tools. The Inca for instance.

    • LOL: Marcus
  241. Jim says:
    @Ron Unz

    Most serious estimates of the Amerindian population north of Mexico at the time of Columbus range between one to two million.

  242. Jim says:
    @in the middle

    Human sacrifice and cannibalism certainly were widespread among Mesoamerican cultures including the Maya. While many aspects of this culture dserve admiration there is no question that by modern standards they were quite gory. Much of their art can be described both as striking and gruesome at the same time.

    • Replies: @utu
  243. Jim says:

    The cited figures for European countries are very high and are most likely based on small or unrepresentative samples.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  244. Jim says:

    Some of the descriptions of the pre-Conquest Maya by commentators here certainly rely on an awful lot of imagination and very little evidence.

    It is interesting though that knowledge of Mesoamerican writing dissapeared very quickly after the arrival of the Spanish. Most likely this is because knowledge of writing was restricted to a very tiny elite class.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  245. @Jim

    I emphatically disagree. What mesoamericans accomplished they accomplished without outside influence. Like writing, the concept of 0, their astronomy. They were leaps and bounds ahead of Europe in that regard.

    They knew of the galactic alignment. That says it all.

    • Replies: @Jim
  246. Jim says:

    Metals such as copper, gold and silver were used by Mesoamerican cultures. There is no evidence of any knowledge of iron or bronze. Obsidan was the most important material for making tools. Mesoamerican cultures predominantly made use of stone and metals played a comparitively minor role.

  247. @Jim

    Iirc those are based on certain cities, not the country as a whole.

    • Replies: @Jim
  248. @Jim

    Their writings and what they attest to more.

    They also used jadeite which is harder than iron.

    • Replies: @Jim
  249. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:
    @Fred Z

    Fred Z

    You…Steve Sailer…John Derbyshire…..Romanian…Jared Tarylor hours…years..of mindless-mind-numbing-the eyes-glaze-over-jibber jabber about IQ Test score psychometrics and PISA Scores …death-by-boredom….Chinese annexation of California right around the corner….

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  250. Jim says:

    Regarding various statements made by various commentators on the supposed knowledge of “advanced mathematics” by the Maya or other Mesoamerican culturs. The extent of textual evidence on this matter is zero. It is heartening to note however that this complete lack of any evidence does not seem to discourage wild speculation.

  251. Jim says:

    For some metropolitan areas they might be valid. Cities throughout the world generally have higher IQ’s than more rural areas.

  252. Jim says:

    You are a fountain of crazy misinformation about Mesoamerican culture.

  253. KenH says:
    @anonymous coward

    Certainly not the only explanation. Their crappy satanic religion is a much better explanation. Look at Western Europe: only 100 years of satanism as an official religion and already their civilization has collapsed.

    While I don’t disagree that Western Europeans have been laid low by softcore Bolshevism and de facto vassalage to the U.S., you cannot overlook the genetic impoverishment that resulted from WWI and WWII. Therefore, European civilization collapsed in 1945.

    I’ll also add that even though Eastern Europeans languished under totalitarianism and atheistic communism they emerged spiritually healthier than their Western Europeans cousins. Despite the many fatal flaws of communism the Eastern Europeans weren’t subjected to holocaust propaganda, racial guilt tripping and anti-white propaganda 24/7 as white Americans and Europeans were and are to this day in their “free” and “democratic” societies.

    Now I know why Francis Parker Yockey felt all of Europe would have been better off under communism since the Jews were losing control of Russia but ascending in the post WWII American political establishment.

  254. Truth says:

    Wealthy 21st century white Americans/ Europeans do human sacrifice to this day, to the point where it is part of their “culture.”

  255. @War for Blair Mountain

    PISA is not a good measure for group IQ.

  256. Jim says:

    The problem here is that unlike Old World cultures where there is a huge amount of surviving texts to use as a basis of writing a more or less coherent “history”, in Mesoamerica there are mostly just monumental inscriptions which provide very limited information without much context and a few mythological or poetical works which are highly fantastical. There is mostly non-textual archaeological data. All this just doesn’t add up to any sort of detailed chronological history such as we more or less have for say Mesopotamian cilivilization from about the middle of the third millenium BC on.

    In addition to the fact that the use of writing was very limited some of the scripts such as those of the Olmecs and that used at Teotihuacan remain undeciphered. Of course the fact that they remain undeciphered is related to the fact that the surviving texts are very limited in quantity.

  257. Jim says:

    Jadeite is a mineral not a metal. Unfortunately the surviving texts from pre-Conquest Mesoamerica are very limited in quantity and nature. Thus most of our knowledge of Mesoamerica is based on archaeological data.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  258. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountian"] says:


    I don’t care…

    But I am concerned about the fact that Donald Trump wants to give multibillionaire Bill Gates who exterminated The Native Born White American Tech Workforce a massive tax break….I am off the Trump Train Ride.

  259. uslabor says:

    Didn’t miss the point, did you? From your reply you think some criminals DESERVE to be tortured. Do you thrive on brutality, or are you merely a savage?

  260. @Jim

    Yes I know. Fine grained jadeite is actually stronger than steel.

  261. Talha says:

    Hey Clyde,

    No, I’m Muslim, not Ahmadiyya.

    All ‘infidels’ with an objective bent to the subject should know that there are indeed differences of opinion on what exactly abrogation entails and the assumption that the ‘verse of the sword’ abrogates all peaceful verses is a falsehood based on selective reading of just the exegetes that held that view while ignoring the more reliable works and authorities on the matter and asserting that, even the exegetes that claim abrogation, specifically mean only ‘complete replacement’ rather than ‘qualification’ as the lexical definition of the word ‘naskh’ allows in Arabic: (for anyone interested in this topic – with references to the various texts)

    sex slaves

    They were simply slaves, sexual access to them was part of the understanding as with practically all pre-modern cultures (Christian, Jew, Muslim, animist, etc. or Mayan, Chinese, Persian, Greek, etc.). But slavery is universally prohibited now (all Muslim nations are signatories to it and Muslim scholars have confirmed these treaties) – so why bring this up?

    Koran says Mummahed must get 20% of all booty

    Correct, but what you imply by it is not. This is called ‘khums’ and he was collecting it to set an example as head of state. You imply that he used it to live a materially luxurious life. After all, he was undisputed ruler of the Arabian peninsula near the end of his life…yet; he spent many days hungry, set out a rule that neither he nor his family could consume from charity, died with his armor mortgaged to a Jewish man for a sack of wheat, slept on a bed of palm branches, when his wives complained that he should spend out of the public coffers on them he gave them an ultimatum of ‘choose me and the after-life or the material life and I’ll let you go’, etc. If you have evidence to the contrary – that he was living it up – present it. Rather, it is instructive on how he actually used the khums, which is why in the Ahkam us-Sultaniyyah* (Rules of Governance) it states; the Hanafi and Maliki schools (which have been the widest employed schools, historically) concur that the proceeds from the booty are only distributed to these three:
    1) orphans 2) indigent 3) travelers

    The Shafi’i school simply adds the following:
    1) public interest projects in general and 2) descendants of Bani Hashim and Bani Muttalib (his family ties)

    Be a peach and look up the Hanbali ruling for me (I’m feeling lazy), it usually falls either with the Shafi’is or Malikis or somewhere in the middle.

    But alas, you are simply throwing up dust to avoid my original request; please present your list of qualified Sunni Orthodox scholars who support Daesh – and please do not waste my time with names of Wahhabi or Salafi extremists, since their support is perfunctory.


    *By Imam Mawardi (ra) – a giant of the Shafi’i school from the 11th century who specialized in matters of public policy and governance – though written from the standpoint of the Shafi’i school nevertheless dutifully conveys differences of opinion on a given matter by the other Sunni Orthodox schools.

    • Replies: @Talha
  262. rod1963 says:
    @Fred Z

    What happened in the West was that our academic, political and business elites betrayed the white race in the name of globalism.

    It’s been clear for quite some time our elites have despised lower class whites. You can even find it among the HBD’ers who have created a white pecking order with Slavs and everyone south of the Danube river condemned as sub-humans. S**t like this is why HBD will never catch on, it’s way too reminiscent of those goose steppers from Berlin.

    Or you get creeps like Charles Murray who can’t wait for lower class whites to die out and be replaced by Brahmins and Chinese.

    Or look at the billionaire man-boys of Silicon Valley who are working quite hard towards the demographic destruction of whites. You can also find it in the business community of Idaho where they are welcoming in all those Muslim and Somali immigrants. The business types don’t care if they rape and pillage so as long as they patronize their businesses.

    Of course none of these so-called superior whites realize they are slitting their own throats longer term. If they think Muslims, Somalis and tens of millions of near illiterate Hispanics are going to tolerate a handful of effete whites running roughshod over them, they got another thing coming.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @utu
  263. Talha says:

    Clarification, by ‘proceeds of the booty’ I meant the ‘khums’ portion (one fifth) – the rest is distributed among the fighters based on participation (for instance, the warrior who killed an enemy combatant gets his belongings, horse, etc.) and other rules (nobody walks away with a personal mangonel or siege tower for instance – that would be pretty cool though).

  264. @MarkinLA

    Indeed. On that, do you know of any good reference on how to do simple arithmetical operations using Roman numerals? I gather this is still known but have yet to see any guidelines. I mean how they would have done it, without having the ability to translate to Hindu-Arabic in one’s head.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  265. iffen says:

    creeps like Charles Murray who can’t wait for lower class whites to die

    Your characterization of Murray is completely wrong. He is a 1st rate scholar and writer.

  266. Sam Shama says:

    Looking back, it ought to make the elites [both moneyed and intellectual] somewhat nervous, given Brexit and the fear campaign conducted by the Remain-ers.

  267. @RaceRealist88

    “One of the first written languages”?

    I don’t know whether the wikipedians are accurate here, but this suggests the oldest evidence for written Maya so far found is 3rd century BC, with the first translated and confirmed being 292 AD.

    Even the earlier date isn’t that good. We’ve got Latin older than that. Compared with some on that list, Latin is a modern language.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Jim
  268. @Anonymous

    Apart from what Lot and Hippopotamusdrome have already contributed, let me note the simpler point that this comparison takes the most advanced society of the Neolithic new world and compares it to one of the less advanced regions of the Iron Age old world.

    A more relevant comparison would be “Yucatan 400 AD” to “Rome 400 AD” or “Constantinople 400 AD” [even better].

    If you want a fairer comparison for Germania, pick a fringe region of the MesoAmerican world at the same time.

    Or is there some requirement that Germania has to be the comparison? Even Hitler didn’t think the Germans were the best exemplars of the “Aryan” world at that time. He favoured the Greeks and both spoke and wrote to that effect. It might be in his table talk or Goebbels’ diaries, but somewhere there is a reference to him lightly pooh-poohing Himmler’s veneration of the German tribes.

  269. @random observer

    You overestimate the contribution of IQ alone. East Asians are great at math, etc., but they are culturally handicapped when it comes to innovation.

    1. China never did develop true science; it takes too much rocking the boat.

    2. China is moving mountains to hack in and steal western innovations. Why not work harder on growing them at home? One word: inability.

    3. Tons of anecdotal evidence that Chinese engineers operate way below their (IQ) predicted capabilities.

    China can maintain the present but not create a better future.

    • Replies: @random observer
    , @Clyde
  270. @Wizard of Oz

    You gotta be kidding me.

    Americans can’t do without the Indians working in Silicon Valley? Producing what, more social media stupidity?

    Americans can’t do without Indians hiring their families (just like in the Old Country?)

    I’d much rather try a ten year hiatus and then see. If the choice is bimodal, between zero and infinity, please let it be zero.

    If I wanted to live in Hyderabad, I’d MOVE to Hyderabad.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  271. @dc.sunsets

    So you really did mean “all” though now you are hedging a bit with your “If the choice is bimodal etc.”

    You can’t be so ignorant so you just haven’t thought it through. You wouldn’t be able to give tenure to a Nobel Prize winner who would like to accept a professorship at MIT. You couldn’t allow a rich Indian or Chinese to set up and run a clinic in association with Harvard Medical School if he required security as an American resident. And so on.

    Of course “Americans [can] do without” them but that empty statement can be made about a thousand phenomena.

    It makes about as much sense to say “Americans can do without fathers after conception so why bother with marriage”.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @dc.sunsets
  272. Jim says:
    @random observer

    Yes the first Mesoamerican writing is first millenium BC. Old World writing is about 3,000 years older. It’s interesting that writing only begins long after the beginning of Olmec culture. Thus Olmec civilization began without writing.

  273. 5371 says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Although you seem unaware of the fact, the only people who are surprised when a great mathematician turns out to be a bad political analyst are precisely IQ fanatics.

  274. KenH says:

    It’s true that Mesoamerican cultures tended to militarism but the “scale of slaughter” between Toltecs, Aztecs, and Mayans doesn’t seem to have been very great.

    How do you know? You may be right and you may be wrong but without records of some sort it’s all guesswork and speculation.

    We’ll never know because no records exist to shed light on the matter. And my comment shouldn’t be construed as a three way battle royal among Maya, Toltec & Aztec, only that there was a degree of fratricidal conflict among each and battles with other lesser known, smaller neighboring tribes which created a death toll.

    The Aztecs came after the Toltecs and it is not clear that Aztecs and Toltecs ever fought each other.

    Some sources have the Chichimecha tribes, the forerunner of the Aztecs, vanquishing the Toltecs after approximately 200-300 years of conflict. The southward migration of the Chichimechas brought them into direct conflict with the Toltecs.

    There is some evidence that Toltecs may have invaded the Yucatan and ruled over parts of it for a while but no evidence of any mass population replacement.

    I never claimed the Toltecs completely exterminated other Indian tribes on their trek south. But given their warlike nature and militarism it’s safe to assume they did their share of killing. Again, we’ll simply never know the scale as no records seem to exist such that we can extrapolate from.

  275. KenH says:

    Endless nonsense about the Maya. They were not in “steep decline” or in their “death throes” at the time of the arrival of the Spanish.

    Take it for what it’s worth, but here’s how one source characterizes the Maya at the time of the Spanish conquest:
    By the time the Spanish Conquistadors arrived, most of the large Mayan sites had been all but abandoned for hundreds of years. Most of their cities had fallen into ruin and were being overtaken by jungle. The Maya people had splintered into small villages and towns, losing the complex social strata and rituals that supported this great civilization at its apex

    That doesn’t sound like a civilization in its prime or with its best days ahead of it.

    One thing to understand about the collapse of the Highland Maya which took place long before the Spanish is that it seems to have been restricted to the cities where probably less than 1% of the population lived.

    This claim almost defies logic. We are to believe that only 1% of Mayans lived in its cities and the other 99% lived in the villages and jungles? As with all ancient civilizations the cities were great population centers be it Athens, Sparta, Troy, Rome, Carthage, Tyre, Sidon, Baghdad, Jerusalem or Constantinople, but the reverse is true in mesoamerica? Can you point to a source or two for this 1% claim?

    The collapse was a collapse of the ruling elites and seems to have been an internal collapse as there is no sign of foreign invasion.

    I tend to agree as it does not appear there was an external force such as a large, antagonistic Indian tribe or tribes acting against the Mayans.

  276. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountian"] says:


    The mad calibrators such as you believe you have found the grand unified theory of Human Beings based upon largely meaningless-contextless(I have no idea if this word actually exists..but pretend that it does…maybe my brain is using context-free grammars as the underlying metaphor) correlations….But you haven’t.

    The mad calibrators are guilty of the SIN OF IRRELEVACE!!(What is this, the 8th deadly sin?)

    • Replies: @5371
  277. Clyde says:

    All well and good but I maintain that the later/Medina Koran verses are superior and abrogate the earlier verses. Just using logic. Would you say your older thoughts at age 44? overrule your younger thoughts? IOW did you learn anything? Did Mohamed learn anything? Yes he learned to go out and kill and convert by the point of the sword.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Marcus
  278. Clyde says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Thanks but as run down as America is we can easily maintain our present hi-tech status if all immigration was cut off tomorrow. The basics are already there. Let the Hindus and Asians/Chinese who already live here do their genius stuff. We don’t need any more…..But we will gladly reroute further immigration from them to Australia to swamp your cucked arid isle

  279. Talha says:

    Hey Clyde,

    Two points:
    1. So basically you are the only authority you are referencing…what to do? Side with an anonymous internet poster or Imams Suyuti (ra) and Baydawi (ra) who are the staple of the tafsir (exegesis) courses for the Nizamiyya curriculum (formulated and kept alive since the times of the Abbasid Caliphate)? What a dilemma.
    2. You have stated the wrong logical formula, it is better stated:
    a) Do your older thoughts completely replace your younger thoughts? Example: Belief in Santa Claus becomes repudiation of Santa Claus.
    b) Do you older thoughts qualify your younger thoughts? Example: I will love this woman for the rest of my life becomes I can love this woman for the rest of my life if she stops nagging me all the time.

    I (and the traditional exegetes) believe both (a) and (b) are true – you seem to only see (a) as a possibility. That is OK – people like Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer and Daesh agree with you – perhaps a joint conference in Mosul is in order? Actually, the conclusions you arrive (using unaided attempts at logic) at are indicative of why it is absolutely imperative to make sure Muslims do not forsake the foundations of Sunni Orthodoxy – if you were to convert (in your current state) you would present a clear security risk.

    kill and convert by the point of the sword

    Another two points:
    1) You are contradicted by excellent academic works on the issue:
    “To begin with, there was no forced conversion, no choice between “Islam and the sword.” Islamic law, following a clear Quranic principle, prohibited any such thing: dhimmis must be allowed to practice their religion. When Muslim armies encountered non-Muslims outside the lands already under the rule of Islam, they were supposed to offer them the choice of conversion to Islam; payment of jizya and acceptance of dhimmi status; or trying the fortunes of war.”
    2) We get dinged by people for two issues; a. Islam obligates conversion by the sword and b. Islam forces non-Muslims into second-class dhimmi status. The two stances are mutually contradictory – figure out your narrative first.


    • Replies: @Clyde
  280. MarkinLA says:
    @random observer

    No. references.

    Well consider the Mayan system as well. It aint as good as Fred suggests. First of all since you don’t have 20 distinct symbols how does that system add and multiply? Assume you have X = 5, Y = 1, and Z = 0. At each base-X position you have Z up to XXXYYYY. Try multiplying that in a meaningful way.

    XXYY * XXXY = ? do we calculate the sum of (X * XXYY) + (X * XXYY), + (X * XXYY) + (XXYY)? Calculating X*XXYY isn’t as useful as it seems. If X = 5 then 25 + 25 + 5 +5 = 60 which is more than 20 so we have 0 with 3 carries for the partial sum. The complete number would be 60 + 60 + 60 + 12. We would have 9 carries and be left with XXYY in our current place.

    Most likely people had to memorize a 400 member multiplication table (or keep it handy) versus a 100 member one for a base 10 system. For addition you only need to remember 20 symbol combinations..

    I imagine the Romans simply memorized multiplication tables and then created a large collection of partial sums and then added them up.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  281. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The Aztecs had an abacus named the nepohualtzintzin so the mayans probably had one too but named differently. And I’m sure Rome probably had their own calculation device too.

  282. Pepe says:

    A good book on Mesoamerican civilization and the influence of the various cultures is “Mesoamerica’s Classic Heritge: From Teotihuacan to the Aztecs,” Carrasco, Jones and Sessions (2000). It’s a collection of scholarly essays that generally make the case that Teotihuacan was the peak of pre-Columbian civilization. So Fred was in the wrong part of Mexico for his research…

    (I sometimes wonder if the Mayans get more attention due to their ruins being located in exotic jungle locales, surrounded by Indian villages. As opposed to Teotihuacan in dusty, central Mestizo Mexico)

    Fred’s comment about the wheel not being developed because there were no horses is funny. Yes, there were no horses because their ancestors ate them all. Not too forward looking…

    Jim has some really good comments in this thread as does Random Observer. For Jim, I would just add that the Tarascans to the west, in today’s Michoacán, were never conquered by the Aztecs. Their use of some metal weapons, however limited, allowed them to go on the offense against the Aztecs and force a truce, creating the large Tarascan Empire west of the Rio Lerma.

    • Replies: @iffen
  283. iffen says:

    comment about the wheel not being developed

    With more tamemes than you know what do with, why bother? 🙂

    Thanks for the book title.

  284. utu says:
    @mtn cur

    “like bragging because we are the smartest retard in special ed” – the ones bragging are not even that.

  285. utu says:

    “why haven’t the centuries-long efforts of the Jesuits to Europeanize/Christianize various Amerind tribes borne fruit?” – Bolivian Mission Towns Revive Baroque Legacy

    They composes classical music that never was composed in the US until late 19 century.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  286. utu says:

    In this quotation Hitler sounds like realist and very pragmatic person. He was not very pragmatic otherwise.

  287. Marcus says:

    This discussion seems oddly out of place for this article. Though I have read that the Spaniards may have practiced jihad policies against “infidels” in the Americas that they had incorporated from the Moors over time.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Clyde
  288. utu says:
    @Mark Caplan

    Enstupidation? An interesting idea. But you are right that Jews prior to their emancipation (by Napoleon edicts that were emulated throughout Europe) have not contributed much to we consider a civilization. Basically their contribution started when they got civilized by entering the co-called Latin Civilization (after Koneczny). The first 1800 years of this civilization Jews were hostile or aloof towards it.

  289. utu says:

    “realistic naturalistic animal drawings disappear from all successive cultures everywhere in the world” – what religion was responsible for American abstract expressionism?

  290. Talha says:

    Hey Marcus,

    I agree, but I had a hard time letting comment #210 go unchallenged. I should call it quits though, this ain’t going anywhere fast – I got myself caught in another whack-a-mole situation…


    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Clyde
  291. utu says:
    @random observer

    “Zero is among the greatest advances ever made in math” – Nonsense. You do not need to invent zero. Zero is emergent property of addition and subtraction. There is no lofty concept behind it. Actually it is just a symbol if you opt up to create one. It pops up in algebra structures like groups and fields but it is entirely irrelevant to 99% of engineering that use math except for the notation in numbers in decimal system. However for most people “0” in the number 1027 is not the same as “0” in the equation 5+0=5. The latter has more to do with the algebraic concept of the zero. The former is just the notation that has no intrinsic meaning unless you decide to dig deeper and notice that 1027=1*10^3+0*10^2+2*10^1+7*10^0.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  292. Marcus says:

    Well, if we’re going into later New World history, the two aren’t that unrelated, and you may find this interesting, the Spaniards had adopted Muslim practices of war, basically imposing their own version of dhimmi on the Moors when they gained the upper hand, and later in the Americas, fittingly I think the “cream” of the conquistadores were from the former Andalusian frontier

    The “Requerimiento” was a procedure imposed by the Monarch to the conquerors in 1513. A document was read aloud by the Conquistadores to native peoples, demanding that they submit to Spanish rule and to the Christian faith. In case of refusal or lack of answer, the attack was legitimate. Michael Barry[6] sees in this codification of forced conversion a reminiscence of the way Muslim Moors would practice Da’wah (preaching) in the non-Islamic land they conquered.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @Talha
  293. utu says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    “White Nationalist-Alt Types have an obsession with IQ test scores.” – You made a very good argument. I ddi not know it was Chomsky’s. For many commentators here it’s some kind of fetish and in their hands or minds it’s more a pseudoscience and mere rhetorical tool that for a strange reason gives them a psychological solace and satisfaction. Perhaps not that strange. It’s pure tribal nationalism like listing German composers against Slavic ones or Jewish Nobel prizes against Aryan. The listing is usually done by people of no achievements in composing or any science.

  294. utu says:

    “We know that advanced surgeries (even brain surgeries) were carried out by Egyptians, Indians, Persians,” – any evidence that owners of sculls with some holes actually survived those alleged surgery.

  295. utu says:

    “Much of their art can be described both as striking and gruesome at the same time.” – The same can be said about Tibetan buddhist culture yet I haven’t heard about human sacrifice and cannibalism in Tibet.

  296. utu says:

    I agree about Charles Murray. He became neocon stooge.

  297. syonredux says:

    They composes classical music that never was composed in the US until late 19 century.

    On the other hand, Anglo-America has outperformed Latin America in just about every field. For example, Mexico and the Nobel Prize.Mexico According to WIKIPEDIA, three people of Mexican origins have won a Nobel. In contrast, Canada has 23, and the USA has 306.

    Now, these figures are from WIKIPEDIA, so I’m sure that one could argue about the margins…but the overall portrait of Mexican achievement is pretty dire.


    How about Fields Medalists?:

    United States 12

    France 10

    Soviet Union (3) / Russia (6) 9

    United Kingdom 7

    Japan 3
    Belgium 2

    West Germany (1) / Germany (0) 1

    Australia 1

    British Hong Kong 1

    Finland 1

    Israel 1

    Italy 1

    Norway 1

    New Zealand 1

    Sweden 1

    Vietnam 1

    Iran 1

    Brazil 1

    (None Stateless) 1

    I’ve left out Manjul Bhargava. His background is complicated.

    So, Mexico has zero.And all of Latin America has exactly one, which ties them with New Zealand.

  298. 5371 says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    You don’t seem to understand a word I write.

    • Replies: @iffen
  299. Clyde says:

    I agree, but I had a hard time letting comment #210 go unchallenged

    Go debate Robert Spencer at Jihad Watch on abrogation. He is my authority on Islam and Jihad. Islam spread by wars and by forcible conversions. I am not going to read an unlucky 13 books on Islamic theology you throw at me. You should run off and convert to Buddhism. Look at Buddhism’s central figure and compare him to Muhammad’s life of war and plunder. Mo’s later life in Medina to be accurate.

    • Replies: @Talha
  300. Clyde says:

    I have read this before and agree with you that the Muslim occupation of Spain brutalized the Spanish psyche. Made the Christians more cruel. The New World conquistadors behaved cruelly due to this. My uniformed guess is that 25-33-40 percent of today’s Spanish blood is from the North African Muslims who ruled Spain for 700 years.
    Especially in Southern Spain.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Rich
    , @L.K
  301. Clyde says:

    2) We get dinged by people for two issues; a. Islam obligates conversion by the sword and b. Islam forces non-Muslims into second-class dhimmi status. The two stances are mutually contradictory – figure out your narrative first.

    They can easily go on at the same time. I know how conquest works and so do you. Amusing that you bring in the word “contradictory”. What is the Koran but a wacky contradictory book that is out of chronological order?

    • Replies: @Talha
  302. @mtn cur

    It once struck me that the reason God created the world was obvious once you grasp the “made in His image” identity. Not only is He Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and Eternal but we know because of that image identity something else about Him. Viz. He didn’t do it for us but for Himself.

    Being Eternal, Omnipotent etc. He would have been lonely and bored. Ergo he created the world as an entertaining experiment to watch: a bit like lonely old Uncle George buying a puppy and two kittens to see how they all get on and who gets to finish up the milk. As I pointed out to a Prince of the Church this solved the Problem of Evil because G clearly wasn’t interested in telling us what to do. He just started organic chemistry so he could be surprised and entertained by what evolution turned up. The P of the C handled this with the urbanity one would expect of a senior executive director of a 2000 year old multinational corporation that has managed to maintain IP on its main product by subtle variations ever since the JC Hellenistic brand was invented by one Paul. “I don’think that’s standard Christian doctrine” he said.

    It being a pleasant social occasion I refrained from announcing my great consequential discovery based also on the “made in His image” identity. Only a bit over 100 years since (as I later discovered) someone coined the expression multi-verse I opined that as human a deity as our God clearly is wouldn’t have stopped with one Big Bang and one universe but, like a bored child in a toy cupboard would have gone into frenetic overdrive and set off “pop pop pop…ad inf.” so that, amidst the trillion, trillion, trillion universes within his view there would be bound to be one with the physical laws and parameters to provide our engaging perversity – and just that enthralling cruelty needed to sate the appetite for blood to which, it seems probable, all multi creating deities become addicted for a time. (Question: did the good sacrificial son cure his barbaric Daddy of his natural primitive nastiness? And did His – please note the scrupulous capitalisation which good manners requires when you know some people can get so easily upset by disrespect for their unseen mentors, not to mention decapitative when it concerns a certain prophet – ah but I have forgotten my segue as I strove to emphasise the importance of good manners over reason and fact in some areas touching our delicate psyches…. No. I remember. I had remembered how G had not learned from an early experiment from which one Isaac escaped only slightly singed…so JC may well have thought his Daddy, playing with trillions of inflation products may have needed something dramatic to catch His attention).

    So you see mtn cur G is quite happy with his senators and scientists in his millionth most stupid Creation. He just loves the suspense created by the combination of really big bangs by our scale and lots of loons to threaten even more and bigger ones after seeing what unrestrained f**k**g amongst the feckless can do to prepare for the cleaners.

    Just don’t speak lightly and irreverently about the mighty Baal whose big joke was to allow some Canaanites to call themselves Hebrews, Israelites and Judeans and get all pompous about those who didn’t employ scribes and compete for mankind’s tiny slice of eternity.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  303. Anonymous [AKA "Anonymoz"] says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    WoOz I’m going to out you if you tell that story again. It’s all very well excusing yourself on the ground that you are 98 and allowed to show off your memory…. but please make it other people’s favourite old jokes for a change.

  304. @utu

    “unless you decide to dig deeper”

    But don’t you always? Were your children allowed to get away with saying they did 1027 (i.e. “one thousand and twenty seven”) hours of home study last year?

  305. @RaceRealist88

    The metal armor of the Spanish could not be pierced by their arrows and obsidian edged clubs, and they had guns and cannon to shoot back with.

    The true history of the conquest of Mexico : written in the year 1568
    they were three hundred for every one of us

    We then walked over the field to examine the lots of the enemy, which we found to amount to upwards of eight hundred

    burying two of our soldiers, who were killed, one by a wound in the ear, and the other by one in the throat

    Battle with 1 to 300 odds. Loss ratio 1 to 400.

  306. @RaceRealist88

    A total of 187 copper objects dating to the 12th through 16th centuries AD have been recovere

    The tweet was about Germania 400 AD.

  307. Were the ancient Turks, Akkads (Sumerians) and Dravidians (Tamils) the parents of Mexico and Meso-America?

    A Tepe was a low, steep hill surrounded by a village. The Tepe was used both as a fortress in case of attack and as a religious center honoring the villageís special deity-often a mother goddess. A few of the many hundreds of Tepes scattered over Sivabhu, even into the Middle East, are Tepe Yaya, Tepe Ya, Tepe Kilize, Tepe Liman, Tepe Catal, Tepe Godin, Tepe Cora, etc.

    Mexico is the only region outside the Middle East and Central Asia, where we find hundreds of these combination protective and holy hills called Tepes. Some of these are Tepatit·n, Tuxtepec, Tepec, Tepic, Mazatepec, Tepetatas, Tepantita, Tepetzintla, Tepuste, Tepetlix, Tepetlalco, ad infinitum.

    In ancient Sivabhu, the deities located at the tops of these tepes were called Yah, Yakh, Yakhu, Yaksha, Yakshi etc., meaning ìGuardian Angel.î The leading Mexican Yakshi (female guardian angel) had her sanctuary atop what is now Tepeyac (Hill of the Guardian Angel) in Mexico City. She is now the Virgin of Guadalupe.

    Ancient Ceylon was divided into three provinces: Maya, the central division of the island; Ruhuna (Soul of Huna Land), and Pihitee, the northernmost of the three. The Ceylonese Maya were known for their impressive astronomical knowledge, architectural marvels, temples, and irrigation ponds.

    The Tamils and all the tribes of Meso-America, from Mexico to Panama, played the same board game: Pachesi. The Meso-Americans called it by a linguistically similar name: Patolli. (Note: CH and T are linguistically similar.

    The Tamils and Turks even gave some of their favorite dishes to the ancient Mexicans, and with the same names! I will name just two of them: Tamales and Corundas. The ancient Tamils were known as Tamils or Tamals. One of their favorite foods was a type of paste or filling wrapped in bamboo husk. Even in Tamil Nadu it is called Tamal. The Michoacanos have a similar triangular shaped tamal called Corunda. In Turkic it would be kur-unda (Turkic dough).

  308. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:


    Yes, this argument against IQ testing comes from Chomsky. And it took quite a while for it to penetrate my thick-dense Irish freaking skull.

    The IQ test score obsession is a proxy for an obsession for particular types of economic-political systems…It has very little to with anything of any scientific depth….its just a mindless chase for uninteresting correlations….you can come up with thousands of strange-bizarre correlations with IQ test scores.

    Let me say something about Robert Plomin. I have read most of his research. And I developed an intense dislike of him. But recently I listened to a BBC debate between Plomin and geneticist Steven Jones….and Plomin came across as a really decent and honorable man, so much so that I had to turn off the interview. I would have rather enjoyed real nasty abuse along the lines of:”YOU SNIVELLING LITTLE RAT FACED GIT!!!!”….

  309. iffen says:

    You don’t seem to understand a word I write.

    Should the rest of us try to decide whether it is the reading or the writing that is at fault?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  310. Talha says:

    He is my authority on Islam and Jihad.

    Man – did I call it or what!

    Islam spread by wars

    Politically yes…

    and by forcible conversions

    Hardly, but once in a while, yes…again, from Bonner’s great book:
    “Even then, however, they must not be converted forcibly. And in fact, although there have
    been instances of forced conversion in Islamic history, these have been exceptional.”

    I am not going to read

    Of course not – you have your pied piper and like the tune – so happy dancing!

    Look at Buddhism’s central figure and compare him to Muhammad’s life

    You have a completely warped sense of jihad (based on neocon darling, Spencer) and then assume that I as a Muslim should hold to the same and then be ashamed of it. Maybe you haven’t been paying attention, but the West seems to have a serious masculinity crisis:

    Why the hell would a Muslim want to give up a solid male figure that combines the aspects of king, warrior, father and saint? The Buddha, for all the great teachings that have been passed down (assuming they are accurate), completely misses out on the first three.


    • Replies: @Clyde
  311. Marcus says:

    Yes, the holy war aspect of the Spanish conquest is hard for us to grasp, there was no equivalent in the English colonies except maybe the early Puritans. 7_archive.html#4957688752052839139 However the Spaniards did have debates over whether the conquests were just and did abolish slavery of the natives, whereas Muslim scholars usually record the mass slaughter and enslavement of infidels with glee e.g.

    The vein of the zeal of religion beat high for the subjection of infidelity and destruction of idols. The Mohammadan forces began to kill and slaughter, on the right and the left unmercifully, throughout the impure land, for the sake of Islãm, and blood flowed in torrents. They plundered gold and silver to an extent greater than can be conceived, and an immense number of precious stones as well as a great variety of cloths? They took captive a great number of handsome and elegant maidens and children of both sexes, more than pen can enumerate. In short, the Mohammadan army brought the country to utter ruin and destroyed the lives of the inhabitants and plundered the cities, and captured their off-springs, so that many temples were deserted and the idols were broken and trodden under foot, the largest of which was Somnãt. The fragments were conveyed to Dehlî and the entrance of the Jãmi Masjid was paved with them so that people might remember and talk of this brilliant victory Praise be to Allah the lord of the worlds

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Clyde
  312. Rich says:

    Studies have show between 10-12% of North African DNA on the Iberian peninsula, although it is 20% in the Canary Islands.

  313. Sam Shama says:

    The writing was crystal clear; the reading, charitably, murky at best. Holding the political opinion of brilliant mathematicians on equal footing with their maths, can often result in tosh, followed by bewilderment amongst the IQ universalists.

    Still, if one were to dismiss the foregoing as weak generalisation, pontification, followed by crash on Brexit odds-making by the literati, is too recent to ignore.

  314. Talha says:

    Hey Marcus,

    Yeah, the conquest of India was quite bloody and very supremacist in its general outlook over the population – which is likely why, after centuries, the population was very much opposed to the conquering people and their religion – as compared to the Hindu and Buddhist populations of Malaysia and Indonesia even though Islam had really only been there for far less time.

    But with respect, Abdullah Fadlullah Shirazi can hardly be described as a Muslim scholar (in the religious sense) – Muslim historian is a more accurate.


    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @Marcus
  315. Talha says:

    I know how conquest works and I also know how logic works…

    If ‘slay them wherever you find them’ is the imperative that abrogates all other commmands – as Spencer and others claim – then there is no place for a dhimmi/millet system (which is a historical fact: &

    You are welcome to you opinions on the Qur’an.


    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @Marcus
  316. @RaceRealist88

    2300 years ago must be what the wiki page was referring to when it mentioned 3rd century BC.

  317. @dc.sunsets

    No arguments here. I was just messing with you since you had ended your earlier post with the rhetorical question about who is producing all the stuff people want. Actually today it’s probably a combination of Chinese women and Vietnamese or Bangladeshi women.

    I remember in the 80s when I thought it a radical new curiosity that Van Heusen shirt labels indicated “Made in Bangladesh”. No I imagine 80% of all commercial clothing must be made there.

  318. Clyde says:

    You seem to be from India/Pakistan so your Hindu ancestors were forcibly converted say 700 years ago. I can only say approximately because this Muslim conquest of Northern India went on for 400 years. The Hindu websites say numerous temples were destroyed and 8o million Hindus were killed/ Lets just say it was 40 million who died by refusing to convert at that point of the sword. Many Muslim nations have swords on their national flags

    Peace again to you because you are an honest broker. Wrong but honest. Isn’t religion and sects a lot like rooting for your home team? Your home baseball or football team. God exists/I am not atheist/ but religion amounts to a lot of cheer leading.

    • Replies: @Talha
  319. Clyde says:

    You are welcome to you opinions on the Qur’an.

    My opinion is the same as Robert Spencer’s opinion. He is my source for truth about Islam since 2002 or so. I used to read his site everyday for six years. This was my education in Islam. Another opinion….. you should quietly go apostate. Forget about Muhammad-centric religions and have a good life for yourself and your family and children. Islam is a bad bet, a useless bet ranging to a very bad bet on how to live your life.

    • Replies: @Talha
  320. Clyde says:

    Good! I have read the Muslim conquest of North India meant 80 million Hindus got killed. In my book Islam is the most successful imperialism of the last one thousand years.

  321. Marcus says:

    Thanks. They surely wanted to please their patrons, but it’s odd to read “men of letters” who would have been incredibly sophisticated for their time reveling in slaughter and destruction. Even Alberuni, who appreciated Hindu learning, called Ghaznavi’s ravages of northern India “wonderful exploits.” I don’t think Spanish monks praised the excesses of the conquistadores, (a committed advocate for the natives like Las Casas was rare) and the Spanish crown tried to guarantee the natives better treatment, but you could say they failed overall.

    • Replies: @Talha
  322. Marcus says:

    Is it off base to say that only Hanifite Sunnis allow non-Abrahamic peoples the option of being dhimmis? So for Hindus or other polytheists (such as Amerinds if that had been the case) the options are only conversion or death. In the Spanish requerimiento, it says that the natives wouldn’t be forced to convert, but I don’t think their religions were ever given any kind of legal status

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Talha
  323. Clyde says:

    You are correct and others have said as much.

  324. Talha says:

    Hey Marcus,

    Imam al-Biruni (ra) was a solid scholar (one of the great Persian polymaths that was both trained in religious [graduate of the solid traditional system in Khwarezm] and secular sciences). I will admit that I have not read his work on Indian history, but I highly doubt that he was viewing any slaughter gleefully as a court historian would. This site (Columbia University) describes his multi-faceted and comprehensive view on the subject:
    “As a study of an alien civilization his book represents the peak of Muslim scholarship, and remains unsurpassed as a masterpiece of erudite learning, penetrating observation, and unbiased appraisal of Hindu culture. In the preface to his book al-Biruni discussed the principles which should guide a scholar in treating of societies and religious systems other than his own. He criticized the tendency to misrepresent other societies or to depend on ‘second-hand information which one has copied from the others, a farrago of materials never sifted by the sieve of critical examination.’ The principle which he adopted was to adhere to the accounts of the Hindus as given in their own authentic works.”
    The effect of this on the country can easily be imagined, and al-Biruni’s description of the result of Mahmud’s raids can scarcely be doubted. ‘Mahmud,’ he wrote, ‘utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed wonderful exploits by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims. This is the reason, too, why Hindu sciences have retired far away from those parts of the country conquered by us, and have fled to places which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benares, and other places.”

    I don’t know what that sounds like to you, to me it sounds like black humor or sarcasm inside a lament especially from a man who had been able to look at the Hindu people with a distinguishing eye.


    • Replies: @Marcus
  325. Marcus says:

    I completely agree, we owe a great deal to him and the other Persian-speaking scholars who transmitted Indian learning westward. A lot of the stuff we think of as quintessentially European, like chess, were actually introduced along this route. I’d be remiss to not mention that some influential Muslims may have wanted better treatment of Indic subjects: Akbar the Great, Dara Shikoh (who commissioned the first translation of the Upanishads), Ibn Batutta

  326. Talha says:

    Hey Clyde,

    Yes indeed – was it the spicy food smell that gave me away – 😉

    Actually, I’m a syed so technically – ahem – on the conquering side. But nearly all of my teachers are from local convert stock. I know quite a bit about the history of Islam in the area; both the bad and the good. The conversion of Hindus to Islam (despite the sanguinary history) was mostly at the hands of the Sufi teachers (Suharwardi, Qadiri, Naqshbandi, Chisti are the main ones) that went to mingle among the people and call them to Islam in terms that were familiar to them. This is why, to this day, the Muslims of that area are very Sufi-oriented and even local Hindus come to pay respects at the mausoleums of the Sufi saints.

    The Hindu websites say numerous temples were destroyed and 8o million Hindus were killed

    Hindutva websites (it seems you get a lot of your information from very biased sources – which is your right) say a lot of things – everyone is scrambling for their inflated Holocaust recognition. But what do academic historians say – that is the question…this is a number that is staggeringly higher than even the estimates of the body counts of the Mongol hordes – a person’s BS-meter should immediately be on high alert. If you are interested, I challenged this number here:

    There was a slaughter – no doubt – in fact, the greatest argument to that point is what Muslims themselves recorded.

    Many Muslim nations have swords on their national flags

    I only know of two of of nearly 60; KSA and Oman. It should be honestly noted that those are barely countries rather than absolute monarchies with a nation-state veneer. Thus they should more be compared to the coat-of-arms of various traditional European powers, many of whom were fine with having spears, axes, arrows, swords and wild beasts on them to project an air of strength:

    May God honor you for honoring me. I’m all for honesty and truth in the matter – if it against me, so be it:
    “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both.” 4:135
    “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be witnesses in justice and let not your enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just! That is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well­-Acquainted with what you do.” 5:8

    I have zero problems with people hating Islam – hate it to the sky and back – just hate it for what it is, not something conjured up in the mind of a man who makes his professional living off of vilifying it – using obscure texts, half-truths, and hoping that his audience can’t distinguish between a Tabari and Tabarani.

    Peace and my apologies for my barbed sarcasm in moments of zeal.

  327. iffen says:

    In the Spanish requerimiento, it says that the natives wouldn’t be forced to convert

    According to Hugh Thomas, Cortez faithfully executed the required reading of the requerimiento during his conquest of Mexico. However, there were several instances where he did not have Malinche, or any other interpreter at his side, so the understanding of the reading on the part of the Amerinds was nil. This did not prevent him from coming back later and putting the “rebelling vassals” to the sword.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Clyde
  328. Marcus says:

    Thanks. It’s a vague and even contradictory document compared to what the Muslim jihadis would’ve read to their enemies before war, so we can imagine the Indios might be confused even if it was translated!

  329. Talha says:

    Hey Clyde,

    You are free to choose the sources you want. I have seen Robert Spencer’s work and, as an educated Muslim, have little good to say about it. It basically comes down the the same thing, again and again, drag out the worst parts of Muslim history and the most sanguinary opinions (no matter how minority they are) and present it as ‘Islam’.

    But, there is a more long term goal at play here, he is just one face of it. Follow the money, I say:

    This is a concerted and very directed effort at big potatoes – not small ones.
    It starts out with (Spencer’s friends): “Look, you Muslims, ISIS represents the true Islam – how do you explain it?”
    Response 1: “No, Islam is all about peace.”
    Response 2: “You’re right, I’m leaving Islam and becoming a Buddhist vegetarian.”
    SF: “Well the Meccan Islam is all about peace, but the Madinan Islam is not. You should follow the Meccan one because it’s all about peace and love like Buddha and Christ and stuff.”
    Response: “Yeah, you’re right, the Madinan Islam has no place in modern society – I’m adopting liberal Islam.”
    SF (eventually): “Hey, vegetarian Madinan Muslims, you are inconveniently located on top of a bunch of natural resources and West of the Jordan River, make like good Muslims and make Hijra.”

    I’m a Sunni Orthodox Hanafi (praxis) and Naqshbandi Mujaddidi (in spiritual rectification) – trust me, it grants me very nice parameters to live my life. My wife is a convert from Scandinavian stock (Berkeley girl too, weed-smoking friends, Van Morrison & Steve Miller, etc.) and she is studying to be a Hanafi scholar – she knows about the martial history of Islam and what is actually written in our books, this hasn’t fazed her.


    • Replies: @Clyde
  330. Talha says:

    Hey Marcus,

    I didn’t think of that angle before, but decades of fighting with the Muslims over the Iberian peninsula would definitely have honed the Spanish into a solid fighting force (even though the Muslims in Spain were a decadent shell of their predecessors by then). It seems they got the dhimmi formula wrong though, a more accurate one would have been:
    “…or keep your religion and submit your loyalty to the Spanish crown and taxes, and by the way, no more human sacrifices and keep all your pagan festivals inside your temples…”

    But, for all their bluster about Christianity, the natives knew what was really in the hearts of the conquerors. I remember, decades ago, coming across he account of the Taino chief Hatuey as he escaped to Cuba after resisting the Spanish on his island. He had their true religion pegged:
    As later recorded by Spanish priest Bartolomé de las Casas, Hatuey showed the Cubans a basket full of gold and jewels. ‘Here is the God the Spaniards worship,’ he said, ‘for these they fight and kill; for these they persecute us and that is why we have to throw them into the sea…’”

    “Just before lighting the fire [Hatuey was being burned at the stake], a priest offered him spiritual comfort, showing him the cross and asking him to accept Jesus and go to heaven. ‘Are there people like you in heaven?’ he asked. ‘There are many like me in heaven,’ answered the priest. Hatuey answered that he wanted nothing to do with a God that would allow such cruelty to be unleashed in his name.”

    Likely, many of the Hindus felt the same, as Al-Biruni (ra) pointed out.


    • Replies: @Marcus
  331. Talha says:

    Hey Marcus,

    It is more accurate to say that only the Shafi’is had an issue with non-Abrahamic people being dhimmis. Technically, it is not accepted by them. It is a minority opinion, but it does indeed exist. However, two points:
    1) The Hanafi and Maliki schools historically ruled the majority of the lands of the Muslims.
    2) Many Shafi’is got around this issue by just including them into ‘People of the Book’ or the confusing ‘Sabeans’ category – remember, the Kurds and their lands have been staunch Shafi’is (and were able to live without much Ottoman [Hanafi] interference, see below) and produced some of the greatest authorities in the school, if they had adhered to it by the letter, we would not be talking about Yazidi persecution today. And I know of no Shafi’i scholar calling for this today – in fact, the late Shaykh Ramdan Bouti (ra) – one of the greatest contemporary Shafi’i scholars – had argued in his book about jihad, that the evidence just does not support a lot of the historical Shafi’i conclusions: (expensive, I know, I had actually borrowed it from a friend – though a Muslim niche bookseller may have it cheaper)

    “Confronted with the choice of being annexed at some point by Persia or formally accepting the supremacy of the Ottoman sultan in exchange for a very wide autonomy, the Kurdish leaders opted for this second solution and thus Kurdistan, or more exactly its countless fiefs and principalities entered the Ottoman bosom by the path of diplomacy.”

    I will say, our history would have been quite different if the Shafi’i school had become preeminent because they have the most restrictive rules in regard to non-Muslims. What has always interested me was that, why such bloody invasions by the Ghaznavids when the Indian subcontinent is a stronghold of Hanafi jurisprudence. Your question spurred me to look into it and I think I figured it out. The Ghaznavids were indeed Shafi’i at the beginning (and during Mahmud’s time of the invasions) and were transitioning to Hanafi under his son:
    “In jurispriudence, the early Ghaznavids were Shafi’i, but Hanafism gained ascendancy by Mas’ud’s time.”
    Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia

    It also mentions this tidbit, which I agree with:
    “The religious impetus of Mahmud’s Indian forays was minimal; he fought equally tenaciously against rival Muslim rulers and established permanent dominion in India only up to Lahore.”

    This and the fact that they were Turkic steppe warriors (when did these guys ever deal with a population [Muslim or non-Muslim] with kid gloves) actually explains a lot.


    • Replies: @Marcus
  332. Marcus says:

    Yes, in light of rapacious conduct, there were decades of debates about whether colonialism was justified, and if so, how to go about it
    There was no inherent Christian code of war like in Islam: the Catholic Church had tried to regulate conduct of warfare both among fellow Christians (they succeeded to a degree here) and with pagans, but the conquest of the Americas proved impossible to steer to its desired ends, especially when Protestant nations got involved. Interesting footnote, a “converted” slave from Morocco accompanied the Spaniards in some of the first European expeditions to what’s now the US

  333. Marcus says:

    Ziauddin Barani wrote this, surely an exaggeration since the Turko-Mongols never fully defeated the Hindus for centuries after Mahmud died

    “If Mahmud had gone to India once more, he would have brought under his sword all the Brahmans of Hind who, in that vast land, are the cause of the continuance of the laws of infidelity and of the strength of idolators; he would have cut off the heads of two or three hundred thousand Hindu chiefs. He would not have returned his Hindu-slaughtering sword to its scabbard until the whole of Hind had accepted Islam. For Mahmud was a Shafiite, and according to Imam Shafii the decree for Hindus is Islam or death, that is to say, they should either be put to death or accept Islam. It is not lawful to accept jiziya from Hindus who have neither a prophet nor a revealed book”

    OTOH b. Qasim offered dhimmi status to the conquered Sindhis, and that was less than a century after Muhammad’s death

    • Replies: @Talha
  334. Talha says:

    Hey Marcus,

    Look – you hit the nail on the head – many of the later rulers were (save a few illustrious souls) basically very imperialist and materialist (with an appeal to religion to give themselves cover) – they fought other Muslim rulers for land and often deposed their own uncles or brothers, etc. Much of their conduct is just not found in the earlier generation (like making pyramids out of skulls, destroying and looting places of worship, etc.). Basically the Rashidun Caliphate is about it where rules are derived from a practical application of laws of governance and conduct. So you will see jurists saying “And because Umar (ra) acted this way, it is a proof for this…” but you won’t see “And because the Ummayads acted this way…”

    To your point about Mahmud Ghazni, I don’t know if you read that whole article on him from Columbia U, but it says some very interesting things that prove it was not a black and white episode of history:
    “The position of Hindu generals, soldiers, and scholars at the Ghaznavid court is also significant. Even Mahmud, the iconoclast, had a contingent of Hindu officers and soldiers. He richly rewarded at least one Sanskrit poet, and had Hindu pandits at his court. He also issued coins with Sanskrit inscriptions. The Hindu position seems to have improved greatly in the days of his successor, Masud. Only fifty days after the death of Mahmud, his son despatched Sewand Rai, a Hindu chief, with a large body of Hindu cavalry in pursuit of the nobles who had espoused the cause of his brother. Sewand Rai died in the ensuing battle, but his selection for this important assignment indicates his position of trust and eminence…contemporary evidence suggests that the Hindu position under the Ghaznavids was very much better than it was to be in the early days of the Delhi Sultanate.”

    Rarely did rulers follow Islamic practice to the letter; Imam Sarakhsi (ra) had to write a good portion of his monumental work ‘Al-Mabsut’ entirely from memory without resource to his library because he was imprisoned by the sultan – and all of the founders of the four existing schools were imprisoned and/or tortured by the rulers of their time:
    Islamic Legal Thought: A Compendium of Muslim Jurists

    Also, note what the translator of Al-Biruni’s work says about the obvious dislike he expressed for what Mahmud Ghazni did, that “the manner in which he mentions the dead king is cold, cold in the extreme; that the words of praise bestowed upon him are meagre and stiff…”:

    Of course, he had to veil his words – after all, he was a captive at the Ghaznavid court. Often, simply omitting the prayer for the well-being of the sultan at the Friday sermon was grounds (depending on the mood of the ruler) to be considered a rebel.


    • Replies: @vinteuil
    , @Marcus
  335. Good article. Although Mr. Reed’s points are all valid, he left out Mesoamerica’s greatest contribution to humanity: what we now call agronomy. They created some 400 varieties of maize–corn–for example. Their prowess in agriculture dwarfs anything ever produced in the Old World (including ancient China). To my knowledge, however, they produced nothing in the way of great literature…epic poetry i.e. there is no Mayan equivalent of the Gilgamesh, the bhagavad gita, the Iliad/Odyssey or Aeneid. They seemed to have been a first rate STEM culture.

  336. @Wizard of Oz

    Wizard of Oz, indeed.

    To suggest that the USA requires high IQ immigrants requires two things;

    1. Complete ignorance of the USA prior to the 1965 immigration act, and

    2. Complete ignorance of the USA, period.

    The US put men on the moon without Indians or Chinese. The USA did a whole lot of amazing things without one bit of help from Asians, east or south. I’m thinking Bell Labs, the integrated circuit, etc., not just consumer BS like social media & Web advertising (Google.)

    In fact, if correlation is causation, maybe letting in more non-Euros has been why NASA hasn’t done much lately, and why medical costs (in part to pay all those Indian doctors ) are ramping up to bankrupt the country.

    I’m just saying….

    Maybe the USA should try things with exclusively culturally sympatico people for a while to see how it works out.

    We sure as hell don’t need you.

  337. vinteuil says:

    Talha – why are you so interested in convincing Western Christians & Jews & atheists that the various schools of radicals don’t represent true Islam?

    Wouldn’t your time be better spent arguing with *them* instead of *us*?

    Personally, I would be delighted if you succeeded in bringing them around to your point of view.

    But if you succeed with us, instead of them, wouldn’t that just reinforce the G.W.Bush narrative that Islam is a religion of peace – and that’s why we’ve got to make endless war against the radicals?

    • Replies: @Talha
  338. Talha says:

    Hey Vinteui1,

    Good question…two reasons:
    1) If people wouldn’t make ignorant and/or false statements about Islam, I’m happy to shut up.
    2) Because, we are all affected by this. A population that does not understand the problem they are dealing with will be led by policy makers (right now Zionist Neocons) in any direction they want. My tax dollars are being used right now in drone attacks making orphans in some unknown valley.

    The debate is already on in the Muslim lands and Muslim scholars have died and been targeted for opposing Daesh and their ilk:

    I am doing my part with my three sons to give them a good grounding and my extended family to make sure they understand their firmly grounded tradition – this is going to be a long, hard slog.

    The G. W. Bush world view is utter nonsense. Our allies are moderates?? Saudis?? Seriously??

    I would argue that (at its core) Islam is an irenic religion (others would disagree), but it is grounded in reality of the human experience – one of which is war and conflict. I am simply advocating one thing; forget Bush, Spencer and all these other guys with ulterior motives and ties – if you want to know what the Islamic narrative is – go to the Sunni Orthodox tradition that has been around for 14 centuries and reliable sources because they aren’t being given a voice right now. The people who are trying to make Islam out to be this comic-book bogeyman version of Mongols+Nazis+USSR (remember Iraqi drones that were going to attack the US?) do NOT have your best interests involved. As I said, follow the money, they want to stoke flames to keep us mired in this conflict as long as they can – trillions of dollars are at stake.

    that’s why we’ve got to make endless war against the radicals

    “We” have got to stop doing anything – stat! This is not the West’s fight (other than we lit the fire) – this is an internal conflict – a civil war that has always been fought and won by Muslims. Save yourselves from heartache and reprisal by staying out! Give them zero reason to lash out over here and secure the borders. We (the US and West) basically have the anti-Midas touch – anything we lay our hands on turns to crap over there.

    Makes sense?


  339. L.K says:

    clyde goes: “My uniformed guess is that 25-33-40 percent of today’s Spanish blood is from the North African Muslims who ruled Spain for 700 years.”

    Pure nonsense. Genetic research reveals the Berber/Arab/other Semitic contributions to have been small in Spain:

    Two subclades of North African Y-chromosome haplogroup E3b and Middle Eastern haplogroup J (labeled E-M81 and J-M267) are considered unrelated to the Neolithic migrations into Europe, making them useful in detecting historical admixture from Berbers and Arabs or earlier Semitic peoples. These markers exist at combined frequencies of 3% in Catalans of Northern Spain and 6.4% in Andalusians of Southern Spain (for a total of between 1.5% and 3.2% admixture), confirming that gene flow from Phoenicians/Carthaginians and Islamic Moors was minimal.
    (Semino et al. 2004)

    Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigational hazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. … Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity.
    (Comas et al. 2000)

    • Replies: @Clyde
  340. Clyde says:

    According to Hugh Thomas, Cortez faithfully……..

    As far as I am concerned Hugh Thomas is the reliable authority. I read his book 20 years ago. All that crazy Indian crap still goes on with the narco-cartels. It is in their national blood. We never should have allowed open borders with Mexico/ Central America. It turns my stomach.

  341. Clyde says:

    North African Muslims ruled Spain for 700 years. They built great monuments like the Alhambra. They go for polygamy and sexual conquest of infidel women. If you are saying that only 3% of Spanish blood is “Moorish” this is amazing. Might be true. Clarify if you like.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @L.K
    , @Alden
  342. Clyde says:

    I thank you. Very interesting and you are an interesting cosmopolitan guy but I cannot give a decent reply right now. So instead of rudely ignoring your post I will say later

  343. Douglas says:

    Mr. Reed,

    Please answer the question as to why the people’s of such grand creativity are fleeing their country in mass to come to a once established nation of primarily Europeons. If you accept that all the third world’s problems are the fault of the white man, then I can accept that as your answer as I have herd this many times, but I think you at least owe this to an old Alabama boy.

    • Agree: Clyde
  344. Marcus says:

    They certainly have a wide variety: Guillermo del Toro is one of very few (I guess) Mexicans who are pure Spanish and he’s as white as any Northern European; meanwhile Francisco Franco could have easily passed as North African.

    • Replies: @L.K
  345. Clyde says:

    Why the hell would a Muslim want to give up a solid male figure that combines the aspects of king, warrior, father and saint? The Buddha, for all the great teachings that have been passed down (assuming they are accurate), completely misses out on the first three.

    lol I get the slant. Jesus and Buddha were useless gay faggots. Yet billions believe in their essential teaching of peace. Muhammad the warrior conqueror converter I am not impressed by his frenzy of killing. I hear Muhammad led 33 battles and that Muslims say they were all defensive. This is nonsense. You said you were sayid derived. I would not trust long time genealogy. I do some business with someone named Sayyid so now I know what his name means.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Talha
  346. Marcus says:

    Yeah a man of letters would have always been in a precarious position (in the Christian world too, look at Boethius). But the alternative was usually a tightly controlled and anonymous scribal caste dedicated completely to matters of state, like with the Mayans or Mesopotamians.

  347. Marcus says:

    I wouldn’t say that the teachings of Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism are incompatible with self-defense. They have all lost a lot of territory to Muslims, but also put up fierce resistance (see the Buddhists in Burma now) and Christians have even reconquered territory from Muslims in the past in Spain, Russia, Italy, and the Balkans. It’s true modern Christianity seems uninterested in defending itself, look at the faggy Pope telling his followers to bend over for the Muslim hordes.

  348. L.K says:


    So What?

    Southern Europeans do not and have never looked like Northern Europeans, on avg.

    This has nothing to do with having non European admixture.

    Europeans come in different shades, from brunettes to blondes, with brunettes being far more common in Southern Europe and pure blondes more common in Northern Europe, just as it was more than 2,000 years ago. No, the Romans and the ancient Greeks were NOT even remotely ‘nordic’, nordicist propaganda notwithstanding.*

    With Black Africans it is the same. The different ethnicities also have ‘a wide variety’ without idiots thinking that those who are lighter shades of brown as opposed to pitch black, are mixed with whatever.

    * for genetic evidence in this regard, see my comment 133, under Luca K, @

    • Replies: @Marcus
  349. Marcus says:

    I completely agree, look at my comments on the Nordicist thread. I think Kemp et al are idiots. My point is that Anglos seem to think all Southern Europeans are dusky wogs: maybe most are, but there are plenty of fairer complexions, especially in Spain.

  350. L.K says:

    I ain’t saying it, geneticists are.
    You then mention Muslims ruled Spain for hundreds of years…
    True, so WHAT?
    This does not at all mean that they heavily mixed with the indigenous people, as genetic studies on Spaniards make clear was not the case.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Alden
  351. Talha says:

    Hey L.K.,

    And this is likely the result of the complete expulsion of the Moriscos in the early 1600’s – conversion to Christianity did not matter – it was a complete ethnic cleansing:
    “The expulsion of the Moriscos from Spain (1609-1614) represents an important episode of ethnic, political and religious cleansing which affected about 300,000 persons. The controversial measure was legitimized by an ideology of religious and political unity that served to defend the expulsion of them all, crypto-Muslims and sincere converts to Christianity alike.”

    So the genetic evidence you bring out make sense.


  352. Alden says:

    Well, one theory explaining why Latin Ameeica is such a mess compared to Anglo America is that the Spanish didn’t kill off or drive off to remote areas the Indians

    Therefore the Indian influence remained and overwhelmed the European Spanish influence.

    Of course when I was young liberals blamed every problem in Latin America on United Fruit Company, Americans who owned shares in the Mexican oil company and the fact that AT&T operated copper mines in Chile. Every problem in Latin America was caused by American businesses and our Presidents, State Department CIA and coca cola ( but not Pepsi)

    • Replies: @Jeff77450
  353. Alden says:

    Most historians agree that the Germans the Romans encountered were not farmers Supposedly they were cattle herders.

  354. Alden says:

    Muslims did not rule all of Spain for 800 years.. Many areas were not under Muslim rule ever. The Spanish began reconquering areas within 100 years.

  355. Alden says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    ” discouraged from reproducing itself by severe loss of wealth and status”

    Or why affirmative action discrimination has caused a drastic lowering of the White birth rate.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  356. Alden says:

    The Alhambra was not built by Muslims Every person who worked on it from engineers to cleaners were Christian slaves, preferably Italians So were many of the Muslim buildings and mosques..Persia preferred Greek and Italian slaves to build their mosques and major buildings

    You’ve been reading too much enlightenment history that holds that Europe sank into a black hole from 420 to 1500 AD.

    • Replies: @Talha
  357. Talha says:

    Hey Clyde,

    That’s not my slant – if I said even a word to denigrate a messenger of God (any of them) I cease to be Muslim. As far as the Buddha, we are agnostic about him being divinely sent, so I’m not going to take a chance on it. I simply meant, there is just no guidance in their lives for these very important male archetypes so people have to grasp in the dark.

    And as far as the Son of Mary (pbuh), as far as we’re concerned, he’s not done – he’s done with his Meccan stage, his Madinan stage is coming.

    I am not impressed by his frenzy of killing

    Nor should you be, there wasn’t much to speak of, here are some major battles of note:
    Badr: around 50 dead (reported by Ibn Ishaq)
    Khaybar: 93 (Waqidi)
    Uhud: 22 (Ibn Hisham)

    And of course Mecca, which should have been a bloodbath (if he was into killing frenzies) since 10,000 marched on it and completely encircled and entered it by surprise, yet there was no sack, no pillage, no enslavement, only a handful of holdouts were killed. Nobody doubts this: Muslim or not. There has never been a more peaceful takeover of a city without any terms being negotiated.

    Muslims say they were all defensive. This is nonsense.

    Correct, it is nonsense. The war between the Quraysh and the Muslims was a back and forth as you would expect in any war – some battles were clearly defensive, some were clearly offensive – Shaykh Ramadan Bouti (ra) made this clear in the book I referenced.

    I would not trust long time genealogy

    Indeed, I have heard that there are many false claimants in the Indo-Pak area. I’m thinking of getting myself tested.


    • Replies: @iffen
  358. Alden says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    I’ve stopped even looking at amren because of Englemann. I was never banned but after years of refuting Englemann I won’t bother any more

    Engleman knows nothing about Asians except for sales. Clerks and waitresses with whom he chats. He knows nothing of how crooked and corrupt they are.

  359. Talha says:

    If I may,

    I don’t much doubt that desert Berber warriors could beat Visigoths on a battlefield yet lacked the sophistication to construct a grand castle but…

    Are you serious in forwarding the idea that the Persians could not build and had no sense of architecture – either before or after Islam? Where’s your proof? And as far as using actual slaves (and even criminals forced into hard labor) to do the manual work; hell – everyone did it, including Romans and Greeks. Mayans and Chinese, etc.


  360. @Alden

    I was inclined to suggest that loss of high status and/or high wealth would be more potent as a contraceptive and, come to think of it, Palestinians may tend to support that emphasis rather than yours. They seem to breed in lieu of tilling the soil and picking the olives they no longer own.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Art
  361. iffen says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    They seem to breed in lieu of tilling the soil and picking the olives they no longer own.

    Forgive me for being slow on the uptake. I see now that you blend seamlessly with the Amren crowd.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  362. iffen says:


    I have been thinking about your foundational problems, just in case you haven’t been. 🙂

    This comment gets at the problems.

    Your history of the Muslims is intertwined with the genesis of Islam.

    It would be the same if I tried to use The Acts of the Apostles as “the” history of that time period.

    In the tradition of Western thought, I am free to question the existence of God, of Jesus, you are unable to do so. You have one hand tied behind your back.

    You say the answers are in The Book. You are not free to ask the question: What if the answers are not in The Book?

    I am sure that you are aware of these problems. I just didn’t want you to forget about them.

    • Replies: @Talha
  363. @iffen

    I am not familiar with Amren people or their views. I merely observe that the loss of status and relative wealth by American middle and lower SES whites may well have reduced their fertility for a variety of reasons – one being the 19th century one that families were started later- but that superficially similar Palestinian experience doesn’t seem to have had the same effect. Why in your opinion? Are the refugee camps in effect little welfare states?

  364. Talha says:

    Hey iffen,

    If you are saying I am biased toward the subject – absolutely! I will totally admit my biases – it’s people like Spencer that want to scam people as if they are objective. For the record, I did go through my doubt phase – almost all Muslims living in the West do – but I simply find that the alternative readings of history require far too many leaps of faith. It’s not just me who says it. Robert Hoyland, wrote an excellent book which I have referenced before, which is an evaluation and collection of non-Muslim contemporaneous accounts:

    …mentions in his introduction (you can preview this in Amazon) that he was inspired by Patricia Crone’s call for ‘Hagarism’ – a revision of early Islamic history based on non-Muslim sources. However, after all his research, he concludes the following:
    “…non-Muslim sources cannot provide a complete and coherent account of Early Islam, even less can it support an alternative version of its development…the testimony of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian wrtiers can be used alongside that of Muslim authors to furnish us with an enriched and expanded vision of the history of the Middle East in Early Islamic times…” concludes the same in his excellent article ‘Hagarism Revisited’:

    This was not Jerusalem and its surrounding areas, governed by Rome (with its literacy and meticulous record keeping) and with a hodge-podge of various different peoples and their narratives. Only one narrative survives out of the sands of Arabia – and much of that narrative is primarily oral until decades later. Now some may say that we don’t trust the accuracy of an oral narrative (in fact, Hoyland only devotes a feww perfunctory paragraphs on it before moving on), but we see it differently:

    It is the same narrative that people like Spencer use (selectively) to make their arguments. Now if one says, well you can’t trust those Muslim sources – fine – no problem; you just called your star witness to the stand and shot them in the face. It defies logic to me, then, to even argue over the matter of the Prophet’s “frenzy of killing” inasmuch as I would argue over Gilgamesh.

    I don’t want to debate this – otherwise it gets into the theological and it, of course, requires belief – just giving you a perspective.


    • Replies: @iffen
  365. iffen says:

    Hey Vinteui1,
    Good question…two reasons:
    1) If people wouldn’t make ignorant and/or false statements about Islam, I’m happy to shut up.

    You offer a defense of Islam against ignorance or misrepresentation. It is my observation that you are very forthright and even-handed, you make no attempt to excuse those Muslim leaders who acted (act) in violation of the tenets of Islam.

    I will totally admit my biases – it’s people like Spencer that want to scam people as if they are objective.

    I accept that you wish to be objective. However, the flaw in your objectivity is the fact that your historical facts cannot be unbound from Islam. I understand that for some periods and events there are only Muslim sources. I see no reason why Muslim sources should not be considered just as valuable as any other source. We have to understand the context of the source. It is just like my example, if I read history into The Acts of the Apostles, I have to be aware of the context and entertain that there “might be” contradictory sources.

    As you admit, you can’t do that.

    With regards to objectivity, you are trying to have your cake and eat too.

    • Replies: @Talha
  366. Jeff77450 says:

    There are probably multiple reasons but culture seems to be the single biggest determinant in the success or failure of a society. Some cultures embrace progress and others resist it. Compare resource poor Israel to every other middle eastern country. Compare the Dominican Republic t0 Haiti. Compare resource poor Japan to China. Compare water-deprived Australia, per capita income ~$50K (the Wikipedia article lists three different per capita incomes) to near-neighbor Indonesia, per capita income ~$3.7K. And so on.

    Next to culture average IQ likely comes in second:

    Degree of homogenization. Societies that are homogeneous, e.g. Japan and Finland, tend to be harmonious. Societies that are heterogeneous, i.e. diverse, are more likely to be chaotic, e.g. Iraq, Rwanda, Darfur and increasingly the U.S., the U.K. and the various European nations that have taken in large numbers of Muslims and so-called migrants.

    Political stability, legal system based on the rule-of-law, strong property & civil rights, the various freedoms codified. Degree of mass-literacy and average education level of the society, likely correlated with average IQ.

    Other factors would include various geographical features to include being located in the temperate zone, as the U.S. is, relative abundance of natural resources, natural defenses to include bodies of water, e.g. U.S. and U.K., and strategic depth (Russia might be the poster child for strategic depth). The significance of strong natural defenses is that “all other things being equal” a nation can spend less on defense. Friendly neighbors, like Canada, on your border versus hostile neighbors.

    I’m sure that we could think of others.

  367. colm says:

    I predict that those who can afford the IQ tweaks, which will probably not include most of the world’s coloured races, will drive the rest to extinction.

  368. colm says:

    Most of Germany is east of Rhine, which the Romans did not cross after Teutoberger.

  369. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    They seem to breed in lieu of tilling the soil and picking the olives they no longer own.

    You wear the Stain of Palestine well. You stole their olives – and we all know it.

    Hmm – two non-Jews – Wizy and iffy – obsessing over the theft of Palestine – cheering on the Jews.

    • Replies: @Clyde
  370. colm says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    Except blacks did not have too much to say about navigation, even now.

  371. Talha says:

    Hey iffen,

    No – I’m actually not objective when it comes to the material (think about it, I actually believe and angel came to an illiterate man in a cave in Arabia – totally not objective) – though I try, as much as I can, to cite non-Muslim sources. However, neither are the critics, they just refuse to admit their biases and I am simply pointing that out. So, while I may be able to debunk the nonsense people spew on Islam or other things (see that comment I responded to about lack of native Persian architecture – I guess people have never heard of Persepolis or its inspirations from the Akkadian ziggurats), I cannot *prove* the Islamic narrative – that is why the words ‘faith’ and ‘belief’ exist in our lexicon. Read what I say and do your own research – I’m just presenting a perspective that is not very common – did you ever hear about the Orthodox schools of jurisprudence before – (usually the people given air time are the extremists or the liberals – both being flip sides of the reformist coin).

    However, I am not sure that my…

    historical facts cannot be unbound from Islam

    My citation of the work by Hoyland which is specifically a translation of all non-Muslim sources on the matter should prove I do believe facts can be arrived at through an examination of all sources. It’s just that any other sources for what went down in Mecca and Madinah in those early years, just plain out do not exist – I would love to be corrected on this point. So what do we do? One can only resort to speculation otherwise.


    • Replies: @iffen
  372. iffen says:

    Read what I say and do your own research

    I do read your excellent comments. I told you before it embarrasses me to admit how limited my knowledge is concerning Islam and the Muslim Empires.

    Taking care of that though. I read all of Talha’s comments and I just started The Great Arab Conquests: How the Spread of Islam Changed the World We Live in, by Hugh Kennedy.

    • Replies: @Talha
  373. Talha says:

    Trust me, it embarrasses me to admit how limited my own relatives’ (born Muslims) knowledge is concerning Islam. Look, this is a niche branch of knowledge of which I have been blessed to pursue (part-time for over a decade). I am likely embarrassed when it comes to other branches of human knowledge of which I have no clue. I can barely get though much of Razib Khan’s articles with all their technical jargon.

    I have heard good things about that book, though I have not read it myself.


  374. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    Oops, sorry, wrong thread.

  375. Another mystery is how the Maya wound up with blue eyed gods who had light colored hair. Certainly the Maya themselves cannot produce this phenotype.

    A possible explanation for our mysteries is that there was once another race of man in North and Central America. We have found evidence of what appeared to be a white phenotype in the Pacific Northwest pre-dating any evidence of the Amerind phenotype we see today (Kennewick Man). This earlier race may have imparted the knowledge and technology to the Maya before disappearing. There is more we do not know about the ancient world than there is what we do know. An earlier race is more plausible than “Ancient Aliens” at any rate. And to me it’s also more plausible than the Maya somehow losing their biological cognitive potential and regressing from mathematics, literature, and astronomy to mud huts and cannibalism.

    Of course if we fail to address the looming demographic disaster of African population explosion projected to reach 4 Billion this century, we may see how a more advanced white civilization is subsumed and destroyed by more fecund primitives. In a thousand years there may be some scholars trying to figure out how North America’s low IQ negro population ever built skyscrapers and suspension bridges with their average IQ of only 70.

    • Replies: @artichoke
    , @K
  376. artichoke says:

    Underestimating Irish and Ashkenazi IQ … that’s me, half of one, half of the other. It’s hard to believe that anyone would have thought so of my ancestors. Things weren’t so different, then to now. We’ve always been brainy.

    This sounds like truly intentional “IQ-defamation” rather than an honest statistical hiccup. And the fact that it happened means that now we have to be apologetic and cover our asses 20 times to say the truth about other groups that are quite unlike the Irish and the Ashkenazi, with truly low performance and pretty clearly low IQ.

  377. artichoke says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Very good points. We need a policy the opposite of the UN, one of self-determination rather than interdependence and “duty to protect”. Let the black Africans find their equilibrium population levels, as we find ours. But no sneaking across the borders — or at least extremely limited. This is preferable to the Democrat solution of sending one sneaky disease after another in there and calling it “humanitarian”. That model is breaking down now anyway, the black Africans are streaming into Italy due to Norwegian traitors “rescuing” them off the Libyan coast and instead of putting them back in Libya, dropping them in Italy instead.

    It’s pretty clear that the ancestors of the people of Chiapas were not the cultural leaders of the Maya.

  378. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Curiously, the number system of the Sumerians and the others of the Mesopotamian region was base 12. What were THEY counting.
    Ancient China, on the other hand, had the writing system they had, but a decimal number system, something the Romans definitely did not have. The ancient Greeks were reduced to using the letters of their alphabet with a prefix meaning, “This is a number, don’t try to say it like, say, “‘hippopotamus’.”

  379. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This is patently false. The Greeks introduced the concept of proof into mathematics. What were empirical observations to the Egyptians and Babylonians, were actual theorems in the hands of the Greeks.

    And most concepts and theorems of Greek mathematics were completely original. With no precedents in Egypt or Mesopotamia.

    Greek mathematics was vastly ahead of anything that had come before. They were indeed extremely good at mathematics. Much better than any other people of the ancient world. Only in Europe since the renaissance have their mathematical achievements been equalled and surpassed.

  380. Clyde says:

    Palestine is primitive and you.

  381. avraham says:

    Three people from Mexico just published what is considered a very good paper in Physics. It was mentioned in the Physics blog the Reference Frame but I did not take a careful look at it. It was mentioned in that blog about two or three weeks ago.

  382. syonredux says:

    Yes, but when I try to use examples such as this on blogs where someone has been overdoing the race superiority business, I seem to meet denial or mere bafflement. Face it, inventing zero is a greater intellectual achievement than any in the history of the US or its predecessor colonies.

    Greater than Vector Calculus or Statistical Mechanics?

  383. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The great Fred has got NO call to call us “isolationists” like some Wellesley poli-sci major. If we’re going to use the devil’s terminology from now on, it’s over. Baby killers are “abortion doctors”, invaders are “migrants”, people of normal racial attitude are “racists”, we who don’t want a 44% Jewish Supreme Court are “anti-Semites”.

    Gee, Hillary’s rather “progressive” now, isn’t she. She’s not a mass-murdering psychopath in happy thrall to the banksters.

    Fred is one of the greatest, most honest commentators of the past century, and I realize this may be just an oversight……… but it’s actually quite untypical of him.

  384. smiddy012 says:

    The Tarim mummies legitimize ancient Chinese myths of a fair-colored people, who likely had some influence over the origins of ancient China…

    Likewise there are myths of a “red-haired” people, who sailed and brought technology, in central and south Americas… Just no archaeological evidence of fair-haired people, yet (and a temperate climate may have something to do with that).

    And personally, as an open-minded amateur, I’ve found recent epigenetic findings tend to lean towards hyperdiffusionism (individualistic genes being spread all the way to Japan and then NE Africa shortly before the Bantu expansion, as just two examples), as taboo and “archaic” a theory it is, more or less.

    Isn’t that far-fetched when you consider who spread the modern skyscraper, and who was deposited in half of the tombs of Giza (according to G. Elliot Smith’s “The Ancient Egyptians and their Influence upon the Civilization of Europe.”) – mostly “Nordid” (Indo/Aryan) and some “Armenoid” (Semite). And when Ramses II was of Nordid phenotype, accompanied with other archaeological evidence and ancient bodies found in Egypt, the House of Seth (which was originally castigated as outsiders) likely was a bunch of red-heads… Proto-Celtic bell-beaker types probably.

  385. K says:

    ”Hindu astronomy was largly derived from translations of the works of Ptolemy and other Hellenistic astronomers. ” Source? ”Even the names of the planets used by Hindu astronomers are
    derived from the Greek names of the planets. The hindu positional system was thus derived from greek sources.” Both sanskrit and greek are indo-european languages and this could explain the similar names of planets. Snake is called sarpam in sanskrit and sarpa/sarpe in greek/latin. Doesnt mean snakes came to india from greece.

    ”In fact there really isn’t much evidence of any theoretical knowledge of mathematics. There is no evidence of the existence of professional scribes or of any schools teaching any theoretical knowledge about mathematics or any other subject. In contrast there are a huge number of school tablets containing worked problems in mathematics, surveying etc. from the Ancient Near East. This is long before the classical Greek mathematical texts.” Did people actually look into each and every nook and cranny of mesoamerica? I doubt it. Also didnt the author say most of mesoamerican books/scriptures/texts/whatever you call them, were burned down and most of what is left is temple inscriptions? So are you actually expecting to find theoretical knowledge of maths on temple walls?

  386. K says:
    @Stan d Mute

    ”And to me it’s also more plausible than the Maya somehow losing their biological cognitive potential and regressing from mathematics, literature, and astronomy to mud huts and cannibalism.” Blonde-blue eyed scandinavians also lived in mud huts at one point in time. And where did ‘cannibalism’ come from? i thought its ‘human sacrifice’. And blond, blue-eye vikings used to fight wars that were just as horrid as human-sacrifices. And i think its not plausible that some blond blue eyed race would create an advanced civilisation in a far off land but not recreate it in its own land. Living in cold climes doesnt stop anybody from doing what mayans did. Mayans could have slackened due to centuries of slavery and the ‘absence’ of the need to do all those things they did because their society was not longer controlled by them. lets assume that mayan priests created all those calenders and numbers etc to determine when is the best time for religious rituals or plant crops etc. Now when spanish came, the priests were relieved of their duties. They were either put to death or forced to take another occupation…certainly non-intellectual. Now imagine he gives birth to a son. The son would also most likely take up the same occupation after his fathers death and later his son and later his son. Over time the genes of the line of the priestly class become less intellectual.

  387. Logan says:
    @Priss Factor

    Sorry, but the gladiators were not by any means all criminals. Some were. Others were random slaves, perhaps slaves who had pissed off their master. Others (many), were POWs, guilty only of being captured by the Romans. This group includes, quite probably, Spartacus and his chief lieutenants.

    The Aztecs came along log after the heyday of the Mayas. But one of the previous groups in the Valley of Mexico, the Toltecs, sent an army that conquered at least one of the major Mayan city-states. So there was considerable contact and influence between the Mayan and Valley of Mexico areas.

    The Inca, like the Aztecs, were very recent conquerors when the Spanish showed up. But Andean civilization goes WAY back in time.We have no evidence at all that the Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations even knew of each other. Maize seems to have made its way from Central America to South America, but few other things did.

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