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Today I will explain how civilization happened, to the extent that there has been any civilization to happen, or that it can be explained, and where stuff comes from, and who done what, and why. Afterward there will be no more to say on the subject. You will hear doors slamming across the nation as university departments shut down.

Now, history is littered knee-deep with literature, and art, and inventions, like gum on the underside of a theater seat. Inventions are pretty important for civilization. Where did these inventions come from? Well, there’s a group of people who clutter up the web and say that it was North Europeans. Yes. See, it’s genetic. These pale people invented everything. Nobody else did, especially Latins. It’s because northerners have creativity, and nobody else else can. The Chinese copy stuff pretty fair, and make little paper umbrellas for expensive drinks, but can’t invent. Latins can’t either. Only North Europeans.

This seemed a bit smug since, curiously, most who believed this seemed to be North Europeans. A coincidence, doubtless. Anyway, being as I am a self-appointed defender of things Latin and tired of unending nonsense on the matter, I set out to investigate. Has anybody else, I asked, ever contributed to the dim world of the mind? Even, perish forbid, Latins?

No.

After many months of arduous research, I had to concede: Damn! It was true! North Europeans really did own intellectual history. Nobody had ever approached their creativity. It was undeniable. The pattern went back a long, long way. To wit:

In the mid-Fourth Millennium BC, North Europeans in Sumeria–widely believed to be Finns, but the evidence is inconclusive–invented writing. Yes. It was later invented independently by other North Europeans, notably the Chinese and Mesoamerican Indians.

Latin peoples in particular have no creativity. The evidence supports this: Four thousand years after the Finns in Sumeria, the Latin peoples of Denmark finally succeeded, sort of 750 AD, in writing down Beowulf (real name: Beowulf Gonzalez) though in crude language and using a script stolen from North European Phoenicians. Such are Latins.

Northern Europeans of the Fifth Century BC in Athens produced Archimedes Jones and Aristotle Schwartz. This Nordic flowering continued. North Europeans of the Roman Empire invented engineering, or at least greatly improved on what the Finns of Sumeria had done. After this, Northern European Italians produced the Renaissance. Latin peoples could not have done it, because they lack creativity.

There is no need here to recapitulate the intellectual achievements of Michelangelo Hofstedter, Da Vinci Frankfurter, or Benvenuto Cellini Thor.

perseusPerseus, by Cellini Thor, a Florentine North European born 1500 and apparent misogynist. The Nordic genius is evident in the…in the…the derivation is left as an exercise for the reader.

Now we ask, why did North Europe produce Teutonic geniuses like Galileo Schwartz? What makes one civilization flourish while another remains covered in snow? After profound thought I concluded that to have a civilization one chiefly needs heat and moisture. This is true also of the more interesting tropical plants, such as orchids.

Consider: The Sumerians got a head start on everybody because they lived in a tremendously hot climate with two big two rivers, the Tigris and Euphrates. They didn’t have to spend all their time looking for firewood and shoveling snow. Compare this with, say, Norway. While the North Europeans of sweltering, rainy India were writing the Gita, the Norwegians huddled around fires and shivered.

It can be shown that as you go north in Europe, the rise of intellectual achievement closely tracks the spread of central heating. This is the Central Heat Theorem. (Not to be confused with the Central Limit Theorem, which I thought says that if you throw enough coins enough times, the bar graph converges to a Gaussian. But it may say something else.)

An article of faith among the North European claque is that peoples in colder climes are smarter than sun dwellers because. See, they had to evolve enough intelligence to remember that it got cold in the winter and they should put food somewhere. (I suspect that a cocker spaniel could do this, but never mind.) Anyway, the dumb ones froze because they couldn’t remember to come in where the fire was and it was warm. The rest bred hard because there was nothing else to do and evolved to be smart.

Another way of looking at the question: anyone witless enough to live where it snows would start with a large IQ deficit to evolve against.

In reality we see that human advance follows the Central Heat Theorem. The Esquimaux, good Asians all, have water, when they can melt it, but not heat, so they never contrived a civilization. Amerindians in places like Montana had water and some heat in the summers, but they froze in winter which discouraged them–it would me. Indians of the southern deserts had heat, heaven knows, but no water. No civilization to speak of.

But the Indians of Mesoamerica, both warm and moist, built elaborate civilizations, invented writing, and number systems. See? It’s like orchid botany.

After the Nordic Renaissance in Italy, civilization of the European variety moved to France. (You can tell that France is a Northern European culture, not an inferior Latin one, because the French speak German.)

At this point the North Europe of today, for practical purposes meaning Germany and England, kicked in. These two counties and the United States finally did produce a tremendous amount of civilization, including most math and literature and the singing commercial, though they can’t dance, and pretty much run the show today. Better late than never. Much is owed to such northern mathematicians as Fibonacci, Galois, Laplace, Lagrange, and Fermat.

ORDER IT NOW

I know that if I suggested that Latins had contributed anything to the arts and sciences, I would be called wrong-headed, racist, or a reverse-racist, or didn’t understand genetics, or something. Perish forbid. (From the Merriam-Fredster Dictionary: “racist”: observant, truthful, characterized by reason.) Yet, even though the evidence is against me–such monumental Germanic writers as Virgil, Dante, Machiavelli, Juvenal, and Cellini Thor himself cannot be denied–I stubbornly insist that Latins must have contributed something to civilization. The ablative absolute maybe, or tomato paste.

Fred is reachable at [email protected] Put “pdq” in the subject line of your email will be heartlessly autodeleted. Lack of response usually due to volume, not bad manners.

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Nordics 
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  1. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:

    Fred, you white-hating mexican-loving liberal feminist un-American bastard!

    I laughed harder than at all 500 Mel Brooks movies combined. Beowulf Gonzalez, indeed! You’re going straight to hell — guaranteed.

  2. Jason Liu says:

    Moral of the story: Supremacism is a distraction from nationalism. One that makes you an easy target for the left to malign, and creates enemies while repelling potential allies.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  3. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Jason Liu

    Moral of the story: Supremacism is a distraction from nationalism. One that makes you an easy target for the left to malign, and creates enemies while repelling potential allies.

    I don’t think that’s the moral. The “nordic supremacy” model espoused by Sailer et al is stupid. Fred’s just calling them “stupid”, justifiably.

    In practice, it is difficult to distinguish nationalism from supremacism. Too many similarities. That’s a good reason for nationalists to make very rational noises to differentiate the two.

    • Replies: @Ben Roham
  4. My father, may he rest in peace, was descended from Vikings. In his cups he would proudly proclaim that Norwegians had invented rope. I hope this helps.

  5. TheJester says:

    Fred,

    On the” juice” again? That’s okay, parody is always welcome 🙂

    Yes, there is a train of thought that the Greeks and Romans were indeed northern Europeans … and posted on the Unz Review no less. Evidently, they thrived until overcome by open borders and regionalization.

    http://www.unz.com/article/what-race-were-the-greeks-and-romans/

    I, however, favor red wines, especially Italian wines. These were no doubt brought to us by our northern European ancestors. As we used to say as we sat on the Collis Capitolinus and ruminated on the beautiful landscape: in vino veritas.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  6. There’s a lot to be said for this. Before the Romans arrived the native Britons were a cannibal race who worshiped rocks. It ain’t genetics, it’s socialization and commerce with your neighbors. The ancient Athenians and Romans had this in spades.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @rakewind
  7. “northern Europeans” is being used here as a “Nordic race”. The ethnogeography of Mediterranean area has changed too much since the first civilizations. The “Nordics” who invaded the Peloponnese peninsula wasn’t just like modern Swedes or Germans. In the XIX psychognomy was quite popular and it was used such as scientific support to the Nordic supremacy ideas that “only blonde blue eyed white people who can produce and sustain civilizations”. That “correlation Don’t implies causality”. Blonde haired and light eyes don’t caused organically speaking higher intelligence… Correlates as well height and intelligence. There are certain little aspects of psychognomy that are relatively right because indeed there are correlations between phenotypes and behavior but it’s not so correlative to be completely causal.

    Michelangelo as well many other renaissance geniuses had “northern European looking” as well plenty of other geniuses have alpine or Mediterranean features. For example the unusual phenotypical features of Beethoven.

    Fred give too much relevance to the civilization and without correct criticism because is very common that civilizations produce many advancements as well many destructions. Just look for the modern/western civilization. So many inventions and improvements. But also so many problems: Environmental destruction at global levels,/ demographic explosion, two world wars, many other wars and conflicts, centuries with irreligious obscurantism, the historical heritage of invasions and destructions of other cultures, etc…

    The classical Greeks were a particular bio-cultural group in the same way modern Finns and poles are. Some nordicist or white supremacist culturally appropriating of classical Greek achievements is stupid because the modern euro-american or any other European nationality have little alike with that extinct people. They may look similar one each other and share some behavioral superficialities but they have completely different cultures that reflects/reflected different bio-cultural paths.

  8. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @TheJester

    That’s okay, parody is always welcome

    Excuse me for the four letter word, Unz, but Fuck! what a dumbass.

    Go look up “parody”, dumbass.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    , @EH
  9. Sam Shama says:

    Brilliant! Fred, you’d better take shelter; the HBD Clan are about to go on the warpath to deluge your email and comments.

    The question will be asked of you: what were the discoveries made by North Europeans of Kenya? Quick!

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  10. There are certain little aspects of psychognomy that are relatively right because indeed there are correlations between phenotypes and behavior but it’s not so correlative to be completely causal.

    For example, the correlation between blue eyes and disposition to the alcoholism. Blue eyes organically caused this vulnerability**

    I don’t think so. Correlation caused by convergent prevalence between this ”two” ”traits”. People with blue eyes, of white race, and with vulnerability to develop alcoholism increased their % among white blue eyed people resulting in this, possible, pseudo-organic causality.

    Two traits with at priori any logical reason to mutually correlated being co-selected, producing this overlap.

    But if the blue eyes and alchoolism vulnerability were intensively co-selected they can become organically causal**

    I don’t know. Maybe yes, and new mutations can desconstruct this phenotypical correlation/association.

    Or not, i’m just talking shit, as usual.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  11. A serious outbreak of sanity. Genetics is not destiny when environments differ widely.

  12. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Santoculto

    For example, the correlation between blue eyes and disposition to the alcoholism. Blue eyes organically caused this vulnerability

    Hold it there, you commie. I have blue eyes, you know. Not “cornflower blue”, or what my wife refers to as “innocent blue” — more like “steely blue”, or “gunslinger blue”, or “icy blue”. Got that?

    FYI, the genetic group most prone to alcoholism is the Polar Eskimo. They have brown eyes. No blue eyes in the group genetics at all.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  13. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    BUT those people who made achieved those impressive feats in Sumer, Babylon, Egypt, Phoenicia, Carthage, Persia, Indus Valley, Vedic South Asia, Aegean, Greece, Rome, Mesoamerica were WHITE!
    They had nothing to do with the poop-skins inhabiting those regions today I assure you!
    In fact, mixing with the lesser races was what destroyed those civilizations to begin with! The people you see there are today are downgraded mongrels!

    Sumerian was an agglutinative language, ergo obviously an Uralic language, like the white Finns and Hungarians! http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/Sumerian-Parpola.htm
    Persians were obviously white, they called themselves Aryans!!!!! And the Indians too!!
    Greeks? Alexander was said to be a blonde eyed blue haired übermensch! Like the original Aryan Hellens all were!
    Rome as well!! Look up how blonde and blue the early Roman emperors were!! That’s when they were great, before they let Berbers and Arameans like Septimius Severus, Caracalla, Philip the Arab, Macrinus, etc rule over them and mix with them and ruin their genes! That’s when it went to shit.
    Babylon was obviously white! Look at all the blue eyed statues they had!!!! Just like the Egyptians too! Look: http://imgur.com/DWbggre
    It was when the Babylonians race mixed with inferior Semitics and other browns subhumans that they went to shit! It’s so obvious! Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GdBze7E4RI
    Phoenicians were obviously white, there is even genetical evidence OMG! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3611457/Ancient-DNA-study-finds-Phoenician-Carthage-European-ancestry.html
    Egypt and Mesoamerica were obviously both white. Because look at all the red haired blue eyed blonde haired mummies there are everywhere. You have to be blind to not see it, and anti-white racist to ignore the evidence. Look at this, it’s all so painfully obvious: http://imgur.com/5zY4APA http://imgur.com/bTEMzlp

    Because of the miscegenation and genepool destroying racemixing genocide of the Aryan populations that built civilization, they fled north to the cold where the lesser races cannot live or adapt. Until we boomed once again and advanced the world by a million years once again!

    You denying the overwhelming evidence of the eternal white Aryan race’s contribution to the world is a real insult, and it’s obvious you have an anti-white agenda here. Just look again http://imgur.com/fYiH1My

    The browns cannot create civilization. They have low IQ low impulse control and it obviously always was like this. That alone should tell you they weren’t the ones to achieve the impressive feats in the regions they now inhabit, and all the evidence points to the TRUTH that it was the white Aryan man who did all that!!!

    Just give up your white-genocide agenda already you maniac, and recognize our true history!

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  14. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Hold it there, you commie.

    I’m not commie.

    I have blue eyes, you know. Not “cornflower blue”, or what my wife refers to as “innocent blue” — more like “steely blue”, or “gunslinger blue”, or “icy blue”. Got that?

    Irrelevant, maybe a off topic part…

    ”FYI, the genetic group most prone to alcoholism is the Polar Eskimo. They have brown eyes. No blue eyes in the group genetics at all.”

    Exactly. If you understand my word salads you will understand my example of causality versus correlation.

    Among caucasians, northern europeans and, seems, people with blue eyes and other fair complexion (”northern european”) are more prone to the alcoholism vulnerability than southern europeans.

    Maybe a great difference is that skimos no have a original culture that enphasised constant alcohol consume in their diet while europeans do.

  15. Rurik says:

    I’ve never in my life ever heard of any Northern European dismiss the genius of men like da Vinci- or the Italians in general.

    or of the very significant contributions to civilization of the Egyptians, the Arabs, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans or the Asians in the East for that matter.

    What I have heard mentioned is a doubt about the wisdom and necessity of replacing all the Northern European stock in their respective countries with Latins (and everyone else)

    The argument isn’t that Latins are not worthy people- in Latin countries. Rather the argument is that both Latins and Northern Europeans are entitled to have countries of their own.

    This is the issue that is creating all the hysteria. Not whether or not the Italians had great men who contributed to philosophy and science and, of course the arts, but rather the urgent need to replace Italians- with Africans- in Italy.

    Capiche?

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Vivacious
    , @Othello
  16. Rich says:

    The Northern European vs Southern European is an interesting argument, but what Fred is doing here, and it’s kind of funny, is he’s referring to Southern Euros as Latins in order to conflate them with that fresh new group that used to be called Hispanics. Latins are not Latinos. Mexicans are not Italians. Sorry. That doesn’t mean I haven’t met some hard working, decent Mexicans. It doesn’t mean some Lebanese-Mexican can’t rise up to be one of the richest men in the world. I’d just like to live in a country that controls its borders and doesn’t change its ethnicity in order for the wealthy to get cheaper labor. Is that really such a bad thing? The Mexicans control their border, the Costa Ricans control the border, why are Caucasians wrong for wanting to control theirs?

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  17. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    No Thank You, Fred.

    I’m Nordic and I don’t want your adulation, sarcastic or otherwise. The last guy who did us that favor put us in a bad odor that endures to this day. Please leave us alone, we don’t need the attention. As it is, we are discriminated against and our numbers are diminishing rapidly relative to other gene pools. You are only hastening our demise.

    We lived around the Baltic Sea; that was our Mediterranean. We were the Hanseatic League. Wherever in the North touched by salt water is and was our home. We were and are sailers, adventurers, explorers and traders.

    We settled this harsh land hoping to get away from creeps like you. Persecute someone else, or put up your dukes.

  18. @Rich

    Costa Rica because their unusual good socio-economic profile seems also have problems with immigration, specially with neighbors.

  19. Ah, the well known logical falsity of “The false Premise”

    Often used by ideological pieces of filth.

    I do not know of any “northern European” who denies the genius of, for example, Euclid.

    Buy a better brand of Tequila, Freddy.

  20. gdpbull says:

    Misplaced sarcasm Reed. Those Latins you refer to had considerable germanic genes in them. Rome and Greece were founded by northern Euros. At first, civilization required mild climates. But harsh climates created higher intelligence through natural selection. Once civilization moved north, the nordics dominated and latin countries, especially after being despoiled by immigrations from the south, became third worldish compared to the northern euro countries. Of course, all that is being “fixed” now by the neoliberal globalist western civ destroyers.

  21. kiismerh says:

    It’s a rare situation when someone tries to be sarcastic, and it turns out that he was simply correct. It is gratifying to see a PC argument sinking this way.

  22. Rich says:
    @gdpbull

    What? Rome and Greece were founded by Germans? Is there a credible historian anywhere who believes that? I like the theory that White people came from the Caucasus Mountains, but were they all really Germans? You need to read some early Greek and Roman histories, of which there a many. There are also histories of when the Romans first encountered the Germanic tribes, and it wasn’t as long lost cousins. The Germanic people have a decent history, why turn it into a joke pretending they were the original Greeks and Romans?

    • Replies: @KenH
  23. The Northern Europeans of Tanzania invented carbon steel 2000 years ago, several centuries before it appeared in Europe.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haya_people

    There was an article on Unz not long ago about iron smelting 2000 years ago by the Northern European Igbo of Nigeria as well.
    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/the-jews-of-west-africa/

    And, how could anyone forget that Norwegians invented skis and snow shoes?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  24. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @gdpbull

    At first, civilization required mild climates. But harsh climates created higher intelligence through natural selection.

    You appear to be quite ignorant of population genetics as it relates to evolutionary success.

    But, I’m only here to poke fun at you. You say that “harsh climates create higher intelligence through natural selection”. That would mean that Polar Eskimos should be the most intelligent of all human groups. And Kalahari Bushmen, living in the hottest, driest harsh climate, should rank right behind them.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
    , @vcragain
  25. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Grace Jones

    And, how could anyone forget that Norwegians invented skis and snow shoes?

    And corn farmers invented mechanical corn shuckers, but not until they started growing corn in a climate harsh enough to make them intelligent. Until then, it was all thumbs, and the biggest calluses marked the tribal chieftain.

    Now I’m wondering who invented condoms, and if it was too late.

  26. Truth says:

    Federico;

    Please adjourn and retire to the friendly confines of your vecindariao cantina, to discuss the weekend cockfights con su amigos para la vida, Pepe y Juan, before needlessly subjecting the Unzistas to your, rapidly increasing, age-related degeneration.

    I mean, you are old enough to remember Fat, Vegas-Elvis and Ali’s last few fights…

    With the utmost sincerity; your friend:

    Truth

    • Replies: @Montefrío
  27. Marcus says:
    @Rurik

    I’ve seen plenty of WN types (tbf probably Americans rather than actual Northern Europeans) take the True Romance view that classical Greco-Romans were “Nords” who became mulattos after copiously intermixing with Africans or something. That said, this is just Fred trying to use Southern Europeans as a proxy for Mexicans.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  28. Pierrej says:

    Everybody thinks their group is the best. Africans in Africa think their inventions and customs are the best. Mexicans in Mexico think they are superior to others. Everyone gives more weight to their own group’s accomplishments than they give to other groups. I suspect that on some level, this sort of thinking helps facilitate group/national cohesion. It only becomes a problem when you have every single group of people in the world crammed into one country, with everyone thinking their group is the most important.

    What percentage of Northern European people are supremacists? I mean, is it 0.01 percent, or is it 0.001%, or what? I’m always hearing people make a commotion about Europeans being racist for having any sort of pride in northern European accomplishments and culture, but I can’t seem to figure out why. Why is Northern European “supremacy” considered so much more dangerous than every other? This seems especially odd considering the small number of people who subscribe to such a perspective.

    On the whole, I would say northern Europeans are, by far, the most objective group of people when it comes to putting things into proper historical perspective. Yet, everywhere I look, I hear endlessly about how (unconsciously) racist whites are, and how any hint of white identity is the most evil thing on Earth and it must be suppressed at once. I myself am not a nordic supremacist, or even a white nationalist. I just can’t help but notice the double standards held by many of the talking heads of our society. Apparently, what is okay for others, is not okay for whites.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  29. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    I’m not sure that harsh climate, by itself, would necessarily strongly select for intelligence. On the whole, however, both Eskimos and Bushmen seem to be very well suited to their particular lifestyles.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  30. Rurik says:
    @Marcus

    classical Greco-Romans were “Nords” who became mulattos after copiously intermixing with Africans or something

    wasn’t Alexander the Great a blond?

    and I suppose you’re talking about the scene where he mentioned the Moors in Sicily, eh?

    I suppose there’s something to that, at some level, and I also suppose that there are some blonds in Northern European countries that just do not understand (because of their intractable racism) the absolute imperative that all blonds be bread out of existence- though mixing with Middle Easterners and Africans and Latins and everybody else.

    I suppose that kind of vile racism will be around until the glorious day when finally, at long last, the demonic people of blonde hair and blue eyes will cease to exist.

    But until then we’ll all be forced to suffer the Swiss and Icelanders and their respective affronts to our lives and our dignity.

    But not so the bl0nd Brits and Southern Americans, who are slated for the ash heap of history in a generation or two! Yea!!!

    And this is what this is all about. The racist desire of certain racist white people who want their daughters to have white grandchildren that look a little bit like them.

    Can you imagine the horrible racism of people like that?

    I’m glad Fred is pointing out how silly these people are, for not wanting Sioux Falls, South Dakota to look like Los Angeles, CA.

    It will be glorious! and all those retrograde, hidebound Northern Europeans in S. Dakota and Colorado can just thank Fred for making sure that they too enjoy the benefits of diversity and multiculturalism, when there are mosques on every street corner, and their cities resemble certain side walks of Paris or Mexico City.

    All hail Fred!

    For putting those racists in their place for wanting to protect the (racist / white) character of their communities and resist the great blending that Fred is our new champion of.

    testify Fred!

    tell us of our racist white, Northern European ways! Tell us how better we’ll all be off once the Latins and Middle Easterners and Africans and Asians and everybody else has transformed our backward and safe and prosperous and harmonious vile lifestyle from what they suffered in Sweden before your diversity hoards marched in. No one can write quite like Fred, so we should all be very grateful to him for his scolding of our racist ways, and our new insistence that we all open up our borders, and especially all people of Northern European stock, to throngs of Third World peoples and Muslims and everybody else!

    It is a glorious time. And we all have Fred Reed to thank for it!

  31. Rurik says:
    @Pierrej

    everywhere I look, I hear endlessly about how (unconsciously) racist whites are, and how any hint of white identity is the most evil thing on Earth and it must be suppressed at once.

    every other ethnicity is supposed to celebrate (and rightly so) their heritage

    but for whites, they’re supposed to marinate in self-loathing and self-hatred for their myriad crimes against all other peoples and even genders, (trans and otherwise).

    They’re deplorable and beyond redemption, and the only, only final solution to the question of white people is blending them out of existence. And any white person who doesn’t agree wholeheartedly- is what they call a “white supremacist”. Not because he or she wants to reign supreme over other races or people. (who the fuck would ever suggest such a thing?!, [unless they’re Zionists of course])

    No, for a white person to be called a “white supremacist”, all he or she has to say is that they don’t want to be swamped and ruled over by non-whites who are hostile to them. Like the whites in Zimbabwe discovered once they handed over rule to others. Because they were channeling Fred, and didn’t want to be considered Northern European racists. How well did that work out for them, eh?

    But no matter. Fred hath spoken, and we all must embrace our racial guilt for being Swedes or, God help us, Germans.

    Viva our new patron saint of diversity and multiculturalism!

    All hail Fred!

    • Replies: @Malla
  32. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    I’m not sure that harsh climate, by itself, would necessarily strongly select for intelligence. On the whole, however, both Eskimos and Bushmen seem to be very well suited to their particular lifestyles.

    I’m not attacking you, but the great proportion of HBD claims for intelligence and “superiority” are but thinly concealed Lamarckism. That is, unscientific horse excrement.

    So, harsh climates select for intelligence, do they? Darn, when I studied evolutionary biology, the evidence pointed to harsh climates selecting for phenotypes most capable of surviving harsh climate conditions, and living long enough to produce offspring. Umm…duuuuuh. That’s what evolution is all about: reproductive success trumps EVERYTHING else.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
    , @Talha
  33. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    wasn’t Alexander the Great a blond?

    Dunno. They say Jayne Mansfield was a natural blonde, but her roots sure got dark sometimes. They say Alexander was a raging homosexual, as well. Do you suppose he dyed his hair blonde so that guys would, you know, notice?

    Isn’t it really FUN to fantasize that Alexander was Nordic?

    Jeeze, but these HBD clowns are a riot. Seriously, at the convention, let’s rent clown-cars.

  34. Rurik says:

    Jeeze, but these HBD clowns are a riot. Seriously, at the convention, let’s rent clown-cars.

    butt hurt much?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  35. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    No one can write quite like Fred, so we should all be very grateful to him for his scolding of our racist ways, and our new insistence that we all open up our borders, and especially all people of Northern European stock, to throngs of Third World peoples and Muslims and everybody else!

    Personally, I tend to avoid blacks, Arabs, and Israelis — Arabs and Israelis seeming to have very similar and very disagreeable personalities.

    All of this race/iq BS is a waste of time and effort. I think immigration should be stopped — stopped absolutely — just because America has too many people, and has had too many people for 50 years.

    Worse, I don’t wanna go help the suffering Africans, nor any suffering Arabs, nor any suffering Central and South Americans. They got themselves into whatever fixes they’re in, and they can get themselves out.

    • Agree: RaceRealist88
    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Talha
    , @Feric Jaggar
  36. Marcus says:
    @Rurik

    I don’t think we can ever know for sure, but from what I’ve seen of Greco-Roman art, they don’t look very Nordic at all, though they might have been fairer complected than modern Southern Euros, you can find plenty of Southern Euros who don’t look like “wogs” and many swarthy northern Europeans. DNA studies don’t show modern southern Europeans to be that closely related to northern Africans. Regarding Alexander in particular, all the sources on his life that have survived were written well after his death. There’s the “Alexander Mosaic” that portrays him with medium brown hair, but again this was probably made centuries after his death.

  37. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Do you have trouble reading? I said harsh climates DON’T necessarily select for intelligence.

  38. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    Jeeze, but these HBD clowns are a riot. Seriously, at the convention, let’s rent clown-cars.

    butt hurt much?

    Damn, but you do tend to obsess a wee bit on hurty-butts. You aren’t one of c.willie’s compadres, are ya?

  39. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    Do you have trouble reading? I said harsh climates DON’T necessarily select for intelligence.

    I know. That’s why I said “I’m not attacking you” right up-front. I had a bit more to say on the subject, and that comment “Reply” to you was simply a vehicle. I did not intend to offend you. I try not to offend the very few commenters who seem both well-informed, and capable of integrating two or more concepts cohesively. 😉

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  40. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Marcus

    I don’t think we can ever know for sure, but from what I’ve seen of Greco-Roman art, they don’t look very Nordic at all

    Boy, they sure don’t, do they? 😉

    I’ve been thinking along HBD lines lately, and have come to the conclusion that all the art we have available from that era turns out to be a product of two major Affirmative Action Art schools of the time period. Hence the duskiness.

  41. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Worse, I don’t wanna go help the suffering Africans, nor any suffering Arabs, nor any suffering Central and South Americans. They got themselves into whatever fixes they’re in, and they can get themselves out.

    well, that’s not strictly true

    for millions of Arabs, it was and is the Zio-West that has destroyed their lives and their countries and their worlds.

    Just as they’re doing today in Syria and elsewhere. So, just as I don’t consider the (very real) suffering of the typical Syrian in the war zones as something that the average German (or American or Brit) is responsible for and must pay for, I do recognize that it is the assorted Western governments that have wrought unspeakable misery and horrors upon that part of the world. And the politicians who voted for it all *are* responsible, and should be made to pay for it all. Up to and including with their very own (treasonous) lives.

    I just don’t agree with Fred that the solution to the Zio-Fiend destroying countries all over the Middle East and Europe, is for all Northern Europeans to open up their borders to even more immigrants, which seems to be Fred’s point. That Latins (and presumably everyone else) should be welcomed into North America (and Northern Europe) with open arms by the tens of millions or more, and that any resistance to the idea are only the frothing ravings of ‘white supremacists’ circle jerking to newsreels of Hitler.

    Huh Fred?

  42. Talha says:
    @Pierrej

    Hey Pierrej,

    I think he was agreeing with you, but kind of switching the person-perspective of who he was speaking to. Could be wrong, but I think you both are arguing the same thing – which is also my perspective. From what I know about the Plains Indians and other tribes in Canada, they also lived through some pretty rough winters – of course, some of them were intelligent enough to shift South or North in accordance with the time of year instead of just roughing out winters in deplorable weather.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  43. Talha says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Hey MCPO USN,

    Worse, I don’t wanna go help the suffering Africans, nor any suffering Arabs, nor any suffering Central and South Americans.

    No problem.

    They got themselves into whatever fixes they’re in, and they can get themselves out.

    Sometimes, but the mess in the Middle East has our paw prints all over it – wouldn’t you agree? Though I definitely agree with you, I think we should stop ‘helping’ them too.

    Peace.

    • Agree: John Jeremiah Smith
    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  44. Rurik says:
    @Marcus

    Greco-Roman art, they don’t look very Nordic at all

    I suppose you could Google it or something

    and I think there’s even been some discussion regarding the specific genotype of those people here on the Unz.

    it’s all academic for me, and not really something I personally care much about.

    rather what I find salient is the idea that all white nations today commit to becoming something else.

    I wouldn’t advocate that for Arab countries or Negro countries or Asian countries or Latin or Hispanic countries, and I certainly don’t see the necessity of white countries demanding that they quit the glorious competition to persevere on this planet. Either out of guilt or shame at their heritage or phenotype.

    But that’s just me.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  45. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    No, I’m certainly not offended by anything. I just didn’t know if you misread what I wrote.

    In regards to what effect ‘recent’ evolution has had on modern humans, there are many potential factors and variables to consider, with climate being just one of these. It may well be that the cultural environments of the last 20,000 years or so have more strongly selected for certain traits than any climate has. Of course, to what degree any particular expressed trait is more heavily influenced by the immediate environment, I cannot say.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  46. Talha says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Hey MCPO USN,

    That’s what evolution is all about: reproductive success trumps EVERYTHING else.

    This is what I remember learning as well. Now, let’s take this a step further because there seems to be an incoherence at play here. From what I have read on some things written here on UNZ and by others on other sites that tout the superiority of the intelligence of Europeans and Northerners in general (including Asians) there are two points; intelligence is increasing over time and it can be acutely measured as being higher in certain people. Let’s just take those at face value.

    Now, let’s correlate it to economic productivity or even scientific output – seems good so far.

    Now, let’s correlate it to birth rates – bottom falls out. Why are the most intelligent people incapable or unwilling to proliferate – or at least replace themselves? One could complain about culture or social systems in place, etc. – all well and good, but weren’t these the products of the same intelligent societies?

    From an evolutionary perspective, is there an upper bound for human intelligence – meaning, if its growth is unchecked, do super-smart people risk being weeded out? Why not? If you take something like muscle to mass ratio or being very tall, it seems great to have a highly muscular or tall population. On the surface, it seems very advantageous until you realize the arithmetic of the burden for producing enough food for sustaining such a population relative to others. There could be such a thing as being too muscular or too tall – what about too smart for your own good?

    Peace.

  47. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    for millions of Arabs, it was and is the Zio-West that has destroyed their lives and their countries and their worlds.

    Okay, ya got me there. I keep on trying to be a good hater, but I still haven’t trained myself to reflexively blame the Jews for everything. Sometimes, it just slips my mind.

    But, yes, Israel is to blame for much Arab suffering. How about I just amend my original statement by appending “And Israel can go to hell, too.”? No more $40B “aid” packages, plus absolute (violent if necessary) ejection and elimination of all Israeli activity in American government and politics.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Marcus
  48. See, they had to evolve enough intelligence to remember that it got cold in the winter and they should put food somewhere. (I suspect that a cocker spaniel could do this, but never mind.)

    Cocker spaniels bury caches of food for the winter? I did not know that. They must have inherited it from wolves who make jerky out of the deer they kill.

  49. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Talha

    I blew an entire high-priced “Agree” on your comment. I wonder if RU is aware that the dearth of “Agree” enablement drives up the comment count unproductively. 😉

  50. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    It may well be that the cultural environments of the last 20,000 years or so have more strongly selected for certain traits than any climate has.

    It would seem so, but it tends to fly in the face of classic evolutionary theory — selection, adaptation, mutation = reproductive success. To construct an effective argument for culture causing a selection for intelligence, you would have to connect that to the “reproductive success” requirement.

    Can that be done?

    • Replies: @Pierrej
    , @RaceRealist88
  51. Marcus says:
    @Rurik

    I agree, however it wouldn’t bother me if something bad happens to non-Western countries, they need population reduction anyway.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  52. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    trying to be a good hater, but I still haven’t trained myself to reflexively blame the Jews for everything.

    not everything MCP, but for the Eternal Wars in the Middle East, yea

    Israel is to blame for much Arab suffering. How about I just amend my original statement by appending “And Israel can go to hell, too.”? No more $40B “aid” packages, plus absolute (violent if necessary) ejection and elimination of all Israeli activity in American government and politics.

    Wow, we’re actually getting somewhere now!

    your time here has not been wasted MCP

    there might be hope for you yet

  53. Jeff77450 says:

    Mr. Reed, I find this to be one of your stranger articles. No, of course Western Civilization didn’t invent literally everything. Thank you ancient Sumerians for inventing the first phonetic alphabet, a very important development. Thank you ancient Indians or Babylonians, I’ve seen it attributed to both, for inventing the “zero,” the importance to mathematics of which cannot be stressed enough. Thank you, ancient Chinese for inventing paper, porcelain, pasta, the magnetic compass and many other things. And so on.

    Western Civilization didn’t invent everything but it *is* disproportionately responsible for creating what we think of as the modern world and most of what we enjoy in it. As an aside, as recently as thirty-odd years ago if someone had “waved a magic wand” and caused China to disappear we’d have scarcely noticed it because China wasn’t integrated into the world-economy like it is now.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Montefrío
  54. Rurik says:
    @Marcus

    I agree, however it wouldn’t bother me if something bad happens to non-Western countries, they need population reduction anyway.

    I agree they need a lot of assistance with family planning, but I certainly don’t wish them or anyone anything bad.

    Most people are like you and I, and simply want to make the best of this life and perhaps raise a family and prosper.

    But men like Soros and that ilk seem to be hell bent on creating as much misery and suffering on this planet as they’re able with their short time on this rock.

    I don’t think you’d want to be considered that kind of person, who wishes strife and harm on innocent people that aren’t bothering you in the least. But whose happiness, drives people like Soros bonkers.

  55. Marcus says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    But, yes, Israel is to blame for much Arab suffering.

    Well, depending on your definition, the Arab world extends from Casablanca to Muscat, I find it hard to believe that New Jersey-sized Israel is responsible an appreciable degree of their “suffering.” You’d have a better case for blaming the US, UK , and France, but to be honest that region has been an armpit for a very long time.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  56. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Following my lead in which I had said here, about a year ago, that there exists today, visual evidence of who the Romans were and what they looked like (or a subset of them at any rate), Razib Khan, in an article written a week or so ago, provided a link to the encaustic funerary portraits that have survived to modern times, the Fayum portraits,

    https://www.google.com/search?q=roman+miniature+painting&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=659&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_97zn__TPAhWlz4MKHQNpCA4Q_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=roman+miniature+portrait+fayum

    or, see his article and follow the link a paragraph into the article.

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/

    As you scroll down through the portraits, you will come upon some marble busts of Roman Senators, Generals etc.

    Okay, now what do you think? Do these guys look as Italian as contemporary Italians? Don’t they look a little more northern European, say northern Italian, southern Austria, Gaul and so on? They certainly don’t look like the Copts.

    So, visual evidence alone should give one cause to pause. It may have been the case that an upper class, urban elite was more international than the lower orders; as is true of every major nation in every age, including our own, today.

    So, not so fast, Fred. The jury is still out.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  57. mh505 says:

    Finally, Fred, you are back to form !

    Stay clear of so-called conspiracy theories and concentrate on what you are best at: sarcastic analysis 🙂

  58. Pierrej says:
    @Talha

    some of them were intelligent enough to shift South or North in accordance with the time of year instead of just roughing out winters in deplorable weather.

    Yes, it’s easier for hunter-gatherers to get up and go when the weather turns sour, but less so for farmers. If they don’t provide enough food for their families/communities, they’ll starve.

  59. Vivacious says:
    @Rurik

    Good post, but last word is misspelled.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  60. @Marcus

    There’s the “Alexander Mosaic” that portrays him with medium brown hair

    Plutarch in 75 AD complained that Alexander was portrayed as being too dark:

    “But Apelles, who drew him with thunderbolts in his hand, made his complexion browner and darker than it was naturally; for he was fair and of a light colour, passing into ruddiness in his face and upon his breast.”

    See, pro-white racism goes way back to the ancient Greeks.

    Burial tombs in Macedonia may have portraits of Alexander and his mother.

    There is art from Macedonia from the time of Alaxender that might indicate what Macedonian Nobility would look like:

    • Replies: @Marcus
  61. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Well, I’m not necessarily talking about intelligence. In general, people who are better able to acquire resources tend to move up the social ladder, have more surviving children, ect. Cultures tend to reward those who display pro-social behaviors. Also, by consistently applying steep consequences for extreme anti-social behavior, those behaviors would likely be gradually selected against. Of course, all of this varies greatly from culture to culture.

    Keep in mind this is a very speculative area, and I’m making a VERY broad generalization. Like I said, there are many variables involved which have yet to be parsed out. I just believe it is an area which should, at the very least, be open to further study. As it stands, these sorts of topics tend to be off limits in many circles.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  62. Marcus says:
    @Anonymous

    They definitely don’t look Northern European IMO, though we can only judge by bone structure and such. BTW not all Italians look like Danny Devito, we Americans have a somewhat skewed perspective since most Italian immigrants here were from the far southern parts of the country: look at the PM of Italy (from the central Italy in Tuscany)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matteo_Renzi The subjects of the Pompeii portraits probably wouldn’t be out of place among modern inhabitants of the area
    http://etc.ancient.eu/photos/art-of-pompeii/
    Also, not to belabor the point, but there are plenty of fair southern Europeans as well as swarthy northern Europeans, look at this German for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulf_Kirsten

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  63. Marcus says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Yes, that was 400 years after Alexander’s death, of course the mosaic was probably 200 or so years post-Alexander, so not exactly a contemporary either. There are mixed views on complexion in the ancient world, they seem to have had high opinion of the fair, but also attributed some qualities to the dusky:

    One, because his nose is tip-tilted, [Note] you will praise as piquant, the beak of another you pronounce right-royal, the intermediate type you say strikes the harmonious mean, the swarthy are of manly aspect, the white are children of the gods divinely fair, and as for honey-hued, do you suppose the very word is anything but the euphemistic invention of some lover who can feel no distaste for sallowness when it accompanies the blooming time of youth?

    Pelops, meaning “dark faced” was the legendary king for whom the Peloponnesus was named.

  64. Rurik says:
    @Vivacious

    thanks but darn!

    I’m not Italian, so I’ll defer to your knowledge of such things, but there is this on the Internet…

    Capiche (ignore spell check) is the standard English spelling of the word, usually followed by a question mark, meaning do you understand? It comes from the Italian capisci. The word occasionally appears in several other spellings, including capeesh and capische, but these are far less common than the standard one

    http://grammarist.com/spelling/capiche/

    how is the darn word spelled?

    • Replies: @anon
  65. pyrrhus says:

    Fred trolling himself, LOL. We’re all equal, that’s why subSaharan Africans had all those great civilizations…..

  66. @Rurik

    Fred has frequently reaffirmed his belief in strong borders. His ire is directed at the HBD crowd not because they want to restrict immigration but because they argue that Latin Americans aren’t as smart and civilizationally advanced on average as Western Europeans.

    I share some of his skepticism at the HBD claims, but he is making a pretty lazy straw man here.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  67. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Talha

    I’ve kinda reached the limit of my ability to continue pointing out the facts of evolution, and how it has worked for a (let’s face it) long goddamn time.

    I don’t see “intelligence” as being a critical component. In a given niche, in a given epoch, in a given change period, intelligence may be a factor affecting reproductive success.

    Ain’t none of these geniuses gonna be howling about “intelligence matters the most” when there’s a global plague, and only Igbos carry a gene complex providing immunity. Yepper, shet mah mouf, it don’t matter how smart you are when you lack a gene/trait necessary for survival.

    Hell, they’ll be yapping about how smart they are on their deathbeds.

    • Agree: jacques sheete
  68. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    In general, people who are better able to acquire resources tend to move up the social ladder, have more surviving children, ect. Cultures tend to reward those who display pro-social behaviors.

    A mild tendency, at best? They also tend to reward those who display classic “warrior” behaviors.

    I would have to think about it to come up with anything sensible in support. Where we stand, talking about it now, is heading straight for the “altruism gene”. The idea may have merit, but needs to be worked over from several angles.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  69. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Marcus

    Ah, my mistake. I didn’t mean to write “more northern european” as in Northern European, I meant more north than the typical mediterranean european, which, as you say is somewhat of a stereotype.

  70. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Check out r/K selection theory. Compared to Africa and the Mideast, Northern Europeans and Northeast Asians (to an extent) have always had smaller families with high investment parenting. With women entering the workforce, this becomes even more pronounced. On the other extreme, think of that Moroccan king in the Guinness book of records for most children sired or Dennis Rodman’s father (named Philander!) who dozens of kids with many women.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Talha
  71. Hunters and grabbers were nomadic and lived in caves or hollowed-out trees and never voted or married whereas farmers were the ones who invented houses because winter was coming and, besides, they couldn’t figure out how to move their fields of potatoes and they married for sex and cuddle-warmth and they created the town meeting and the village idiot concept and they let dogs sleep in their straw beds because they fertilised the strawberries as I understand it.

    Years later, as they were reading their bibles, some of them said, Hey, this is pretty boring, right? Let’s invent alcohol and guns and the rest, as they say, is history.

  72. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Mild.. maybe, maybe not. Even very mild selection over many generations will yield certain results, though.

    They also tend to reward those who display classic “warrior” behaviors.

    Yes, and warriors also have to able to work well with others in order to be effective.

    Perhaps this could help explain why so many people are so irrationally eager to go to war for no reason.

    but needs to be worked over from several angles.

    Yes, I definitely agree, J.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  73. What have the Romans ever done for us?

    • Replies: @Malla
  74. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    Yes, and warriors also have to able to work well with others in order to be effective.

    One would think so, but the legends present them as stalwart and solitary — maybe one or two close shield-brothers from adolescence — and always struggling against corrupted authority (“authority” being the top of the foodchain with respect to “working with others”). Consider Cuchulain, for example.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  75. Great troll post.

    Nordicists are so delusional.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
  76. @Anonymous

    How can you be this delusional and deny history? Well, when you’re a Nordicist, it just happens.

    • Replies: @King George III
  77. @gdpbull

    Do you have a credible citation? This is just the same old rehashed delusional Nordicist garbage.

  78. @Talha

    “Why are the most intelligent people incapable or unwilling to proliferate – or at least replace themselves?”

    In part, due to the introgression of deleterious Neanderthal alleles that dropped fitness one percent with the population bottleneck coming OoA that dropped it another 1 percent. So Eurasians have a historic 2 percent decrease in fitness when compared to Africans due to these variables.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/06/15/neanderthals-inbreeding-and-rk-selection-theory/

    • Replies: @Talha
  79. @John Jeremiah Smith

    “It would seem so, but it tends to fly in the face of classic evolutionary theory — selection, adaptation, mutation = reproductive success. To construct an effective argument for culture causing a selection for intelligence, you would have to connect that to the “reproductive success” requirement.”

    YOU GET IT!

  80. @Jeff77450

    “Thank you ancient Indians or Babylonians, I’ve seen it attributed to both, for inventing the “zero,” the importance to mathematics of which cannot be stressed enough”

    The Maya developed writing independently as well as the concept of “0”.

  81. Iceland.

    A Nordic country. Yes?

    A country not invaded, homogeneous, living in peace since its founding.

    Name ONE scientist, artist, inventor, athlete it produced.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @Dumbo
    , @Rurik
  82. There are actually many contemporaneous accounts of ancient Greeks and Romans of lighter features – eyes, hair, skin.

    But this does not necessarily mean Nordic influence.

    You can see with various animals that are domesticated acquire a lighter hue. (See for instance Russian foxes that now exhibit pale fur and blue eyes). The same must happen in humans, particularly those who are ‘self-domesticated’ (become civilised like the Greeks and Romans).

    This process is even mythologised in Scandinavia with the Rigsmal Edda. http://bit.ly/2fF9IsS

    The myth describes a dark-skinned Thrall at the beginning being the son of a farmer peasant, and ends up with a child: “whose hair was blond and who was bleikr (bright white in color)”.
    The journey is up the civilisational and class ladder, getting paler along the way.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  83. @Truth

    If you’re going to use Spanish, please learn to use it properly.

  84. Sam J. says:

    “…They didn’t have to spend all their time looking for firewood and shoveling snow…”

    For our suffering we should be subsidized by the rest of the planet. While others were frolicking in the Sun we slaved away in the snow. Racist.

  85. @Jeff77450

    Thanks for the best comment on this article. You saved me the trouble of writing it myself, heh heh!

  86. @John Jeremiah Smith

    You musta been an Airdale, right Master Chief? Glad ta meetcha. AME2, here.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  87. @Sam Shama

    The Veteran’s Admin ruined Fred’s eyesight. He can barely get his “gems” out the door, let alone read emails by the thousands.

  88. @Thales the Milesian

    Iceland have 300 000 inhabitants…

    Artist**

    Sigur Ros.

    Iceland produced, i thought, one literature nobel.

    There are interesting many poets and writers in Iceland. Generally there are many great talents in many places, unfortunately many them are not know by ”bigger audience”.

  89. Dumbo says:
    @Thales the Milesian

    …Bjork?
    Also Snorri Sturluson.

  90. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Hey Marcus,

    That definitely adds some sense to it.

    With women entering the workforce, this becomes…

    …likely suicidal.

    named Philander!

    LOL! No way – that’s like a guy named “Mason” becoming a brick layer!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  91. Talha says:
    @RaceRealist88

    Thanks RR88,

    That provides some insight for the European side of things. How does that account for the far East like Korea, Japan, etc.?

    Also, you would expect something a bit more gradual to be visible over a greater span of time, but there seems to be a nose dive since the 20th century. And even shorter for other populations:
    https://ourworldindata.org/fertility/

    Check out the UK and Germany as they approach the 20th century – not much fluctuation and then…what the hell? Of course one could basically expect one out of five to die at child birth, but that’s still around 4 surviving kids per family. From my understanding, if only genetics are relevant to the topic, this must play out on a much longer timeline.

    Second, if genetics are the biggest factor, wouldn’t that actually argue for careful admixing with more fertile populations rather than calls for genetic isolation?

    Again, I’m just seeing a lot of incoherence out there within all the various theories.

    Peace.

  92. @Talha

    “…what about too smart for your own good?”

    Or worse, merely proclaiming oneself the most intelligent and deriving all kinds of irrational conclusions from that.

    MCPO USN says it best.

    I don’t see “intelligence” as being a critical component. In a given niche, in a given epoch, in a given change period, intelligence may be a factor affecting reproductive success.

    Ain’t none of these geniuses gonna be howling about “intelligence matters the most” when there’s a global plague, and only Igbos carry a gene complex providing immunity.

    Yepper, shet mah mouf, it don’t matter how smart you are when you lack a gene/trait necessary for survival.

    Hell, they’ll be yapping about how smart they are on their deathbeds.

    “Intelligence,” (anyone care to define it) is most certainly not a critical component for either survival or reproductive success or even happiness. Witness the survivability and reproductive success of algae and amoebae. Don’t ask me about happiness. On the other hand…

    • Replies: @Talha
  93. Thanks, Fred.
    I admit I really needed that.

  94. @Marcus

    I find it hard to believe that New Jersey-sized Israel is responsible an (sic) appreciable degree of their “suffering.”

    You will probably also find it hard to believe that herpes viruses (∼125 nm and ∼220 nm in diameter) can be responsible for an appreciable degree of human suffering as well.

    Do you really think size has anything to do with it? Explain.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  95. Annibale says:

    The author makes a lot of confusion among races and geography.Being born in Italy does not mean to be of “mediterranean” or “western” race (Latin is not a race, just a language): that’s why Italian history is full of people of nordic look, and even ancient Roman history is. I suggest him to take a look at the book of Hans F.K.Guenther “Rassenkunde Europas”,+. I think it could be very very useful.

  96. Talha says:
    @jacques sheete

    Excellent points JS. If you’ve read my other posts, I think wisdom is far more necessary to survival than mere intelligence. And wisdom is neither synonymous with intelligence nor is it something you can actually measure. But you know it when you see it.

    On your point on algae and amoebae. If one takes relatively recent discoveries of deep surface bacteria in mind – and the estimates for their biomass – bacteria are indeed king!
    “Due to the massive amount of habitable area, and the surprisingly high density in which these microbes live, it is now believed that subsurface microbes are responsible for over half of the biomass on the planet.”
    https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Deep_subsurface_microbes

    “Thus, like the biotas of the deep-sea vents, these bacteria live on energy from the Earth’s interior, entirely independent of the photosynthetic, and ultimately solar, base of all conventional ecosystems*…Not only does the Earth contain more bacterial organisms than all others combined (scarcely surprising, given their minimal size and mass); not only do bacteria live in more places and work in a greater variety of metabolic ways; not only did bacteria alone constitute the first half of life’s history, with no slackening in diversity thereafter; but also, and most surprisingly, total bacterial biomass (even at such minimal weight per cell) may exceed all the rest of life combined, even forest trees, once we include the subterranean populations as well.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/1996/11/13/planet-of-the-bacteria/6fb60f1d-e6fe-471e-8a0f-4cfa9373772c/

    It’s funny to think that arrogant humans can think of nuking and completely obliterating everything on the surface and it make zero difference to singular cell organisms doing their thing deep below!

    Peace.

    *Note: The research on them is still early and we have no idea what is actually down there. Their complete independence from the surface solar-based ecosystem brings up an interesting question; was there not one single, but potentially two independent points of the origin of life?

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  97. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Jim Christian

    You musta been an Airdale

    ET

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  98. Rurik says:
    @Thales the Milesian

    Name ONE scientist, artist, inventor, athlete it produced.

    is that the measure of the worthiness of a country?

    if so, then how does Fred’s vaunted Mexico rate?

    Iceland is universally considered one of the best places on the planet for civil and pleasant living

    and it’s always rated as one of the least corrupt places as well

    but this is the thing, today there is a raging debate on the advisability of importing tens of millions of Mexicans (among others) into North America. This seems to be the point of Freds little screed here, that these Mexican “Latins” are better people all around than the Euros that [still] make up most of the US.

    OK, fine. Perhaps so. I’m not debating any of that.

    My point is that the Euro-Americans, however dunderheaded and backward, (just as you describe the Icelanders) are still better off remaining who and what they are, regardless of all the superlative geniuses in the Latin/Mexican gene pool.

    Iceland may be full of low IQ savages, but at least its theirs. And I think they’d prefer to keep it that way, in spite of people like Fred who seem to insist that this is the worst thing ever… for Northern Europeans to want to persevere in any form or in any country.

    (and I’ll go here… the creeping suspicion is that what Fred and his immigration proponents are really after, is to alter for all eternity the genetic identity of the people of Northern European ancestry so that they no longer look the way they do. Part of this is the transparent urge of the assorted ‘duskys’ of the world to have their way with pretty white blondes. (hard to blame them)

    But the more dangerous motivation is the one to ‘remove racism from the world’, by breeding out all those tall, blue eyed, fair haired Nordics who make other people feel bad about themselves by seeing them walking around and seeming happy. It drives certain types like George Soros insane with rage to see such things, and apparently Fred too.

    And that is what the whole immigration/refugee thing is all about. From Mexicans/Latins in North America to Arabs and Africans in Europe. It’s all about an orgy of butt hurt by people who don’t like seeing “Nazis” all over the place thriving and prospering.

    duh

  99. Rurik says:
    @The Millennial Falcon

    not because they want to restrict immigration but because they argue that Latin Americans aren’t as smart

    to what end?

    just to be able to say that ‘yes, Enrico Fermi was much smarter than your average North European, so nyah, nyah, nyah nyah’

    really?

    somehow I supect there’s more to it

    right now in Europe and North America there is a raging debate,.. fuck it.. a war on to determine whether or not Europeans and North Americans of European stock are all Nazis and racists for not wanting tens of millions or more of the Third World’s people flooding into these nations and transforming for all eternity their ethnic and cultural identities into something fundamentally different (better, from Fred’s POV)

    Fred’s point seems to be that it won’t be a bad thing for Americans when Denver, CO resembles Mexico City, in every way, shape and form, because Mexican Latins are obviously much smarter and more civilized and noble and honorable and better, really in every way. So why would any racist white American complain.. unless it’s because he was nothing but an ignorant, toothless, racist white [redundant] throwback to his Neanderthal relatives and too dumb to see all the wonderful and obvious advantages to massive Mexican immigration.

    Huh Fred?

    not that any of this matters. What will decide all of this will happen in three days time, when the American voter will decide on the fate of Denver, CO. In spite of Fred’s or Rurik’s views on the subject.

    • Replies: @Mokiki
  100. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    It’s all about an orgy of butt hurt

    Dang, there it is again! 🙂

  101. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Yeah, legends are fine and all, but in real life, I’m not sure how much military success one or two men would have all by themselves. An individual soldier typically had to work with many other unrelated men in order to be militarily successful. They didn’t necessarily have to like them, they just had to work with them in achieving a common goal. At any rate, being “stalwart” in no way precludes someone from being well within the confines of social norms.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  102. @Talha

    …I think wisdom is far more necessary to survival than mere intelligence. And wisdom is neither synonymous with intelligence nor is it something you can actually measure.

    And I wonder if that may be what Cellini Thor may be suggesting in his bronze work masterpiece.

    It may be worthwhile to remember that Athena, a goddess of wisdom, reason, victory, civilization, etc., punished the once beautiful but self-adoring Medusa with a hideous visage and loathsome snakes for hair because Medusa had the chutzpah to imagine that her superior beauty would make her special enough to allow her to desecrate Athena’s temple by fornicating there with a god [Poseidon].

    The lesson I get from the story is that if we want to be civilized as civilized as we think we are, and as wise as we imagine ourselves to be, we need to ruthlessly sweep the temple of our hideous and loathsome preening and unaccountable narcissism. Slaying such a monster would undoubtedly require help from the gods…but what a beautiful thing it would be. No wonder it’s mythology; it ain’t never gonna happen.

    [MORE]

    Line 1482
    Chorus:
    Blessed is the man with lots of brains and learning.
    Now this is now highly obvious.
    Chorus:
    Aeschylus, this man who’s going back home will be a great joy for his family and for his friends!
    Chorus:
    Because of his abundant intelligence!
    Chorus:
    They sit at the feet of Socrates
    Till they can’t distinguish the wood from the trees,
    And tragedy goes to POT;
    They don’t care whether their plays are art
    But only whether the words are smart;
    They waste our time with quibbles and quarrels,
    Destroying our patience as well as our morals,
    And making us all talk ROT.
    Pause
    A fart is heard from behind the gate.
    Pause
    Enter Pluto, Aeschylus, Dionysus and Xanthias. Pluto is carrying two sacks.
    Pause
    Pluto:
    Well then, Aeschylus! Fare well! Go and give the Athenians the benefit of your good advice. Educate the idiots –there sure are many of them!

    ARISTOPHANES’, “FROGS”, First performed at Lenea in 405 BCE The above is a composite of several translations.

  103. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    I thought we were referencing cultural models, cultural values as vehicles for some as-yet-undefined variation on evolution? No? The stalwart, solitary warrior is a model frequently found in Northern/Western European histories. Contrast that to differences with legends of southern/africanized Europe, perhaps “El Cid”, for instance.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  104. @Rurik

    It’s all about an orgy of butt hurt by people who don’t like seeing “Nazis” all over the place thriving and prospering.

    Actually, the cloacodynia has more to do with experiencing the arrogance, hubris and unearned narcissism of those who prosper and thrive (materially) at the expense of the peasants, prols, untermenschen and goyim.

    And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?

    Mark 8:36, Matthew 16:26

  105. Rurik says:

    Actually, the cloacodynia has more to do with experiencing the arrogance, hubris and unearned narcissism of those who prosper and thrive (materially) at the expense of the peasants, prols, untermenschen and goyim.

    you’re talking about the GOP proponents of immigration

    the other orifice of the cloaca

    yes, for the Chamber of Commerce types, there’s no amount of misery and strife that will $ate their appetite

    that’s the Paul Ryan tract, and you slander all comparatively inoffensive ‘cloacodynia’ with your comparison Ryan

    if ‘cloacodynia’ wanted to sue for damages, I’d be sympathetic

  106. Sean says:

    Rome’s two founding myths are clearly indicative of a people who identified with wolves and appropriated others’ women

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women

    There are traces of Yamnaya origin in many other cultures including Proto-Indo-Iranian.

    It’s true that the idea of attributing north European characteristics to northern climes is now totally discredited. For example north Europeans did not become fully white until the early Bronze age and the original hunter gathers up until the Mesolithic were actually dark skinned with blue eyes (I was the first person to suggest that may have been was the case by the way)

    Consider: The Sumerians got a head start on everybody because they lived in a tremendously hot climate with two big two rivers, the Tigris and Euphrates. They didn’t have to spend all their time looking for firewood and shoveling snow. Compare this with, say, Norway. While the North Europeans of sweltering, rainy India were writing the Gita, the Norwegians huddled around fires and shivered.

    The Norwegians happen to be the Europeans with the greatest proportion of Yamnaya ancestry, and the Yamnaya were the Indo European culture bearers, ie the ones who invented European culture. They were from modern Ukraine. They didn’t look like Norwegians of course, the north European look is due to sexual selection. the latest sex chromosome data is consistent with Yamnaya men having a lot of choice of women. Going by Mexican TV, men like bright color trait rare in their society. The next generation woved on, Yamnaya/ hot women descendants moving north in a rolling cycle of extermination and conquered woman stealing. The uber patriarchal suttee-practicing Yamnaya treated even their own women like animals, so fully white skin which illicits care and provisioning, spread like wildfire in the areas that that Yamnay conquered. And that is why Norwegians look like they do and have more Yamnaya ancestry than anyone else in Europe. If North European are special it may be mainly due to them having a lot of Yamnaya genes.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    , @Marcus
  107. Rehmat says:

    “Nothing in Europe could hold candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600 CE,” – Professor Dr. Jamil Rageb (Oklahoma University)….

    https://rehmat1.com/2008/11/09/islam-and-knowledge/

    • Replies: @Sherman
    , @Gates of Vienna
  108. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    The stalwart, solitary warrior is a model frequently found in Northern/Western European histories. Contrast that to differences with legends of southern/africanized Europe, perhaps “El Cid”, for instance.

    Sure, but what is your point?

    In general, the question of whether recent human evolution has taken place is an empirical matter.

    cultural values as vehicles for some as-yet-undefined variation on evolution?

    No, There is no “variation on evolution”. Now you’re just talking nonsense, Johnny boy.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  109. @Sean

    The uber patriarchal suttee-practicing Yamnaya treated even their own women like animals…

    Interesting comment about patriarchal treatment of women.

    Reading Josephus’ “Antiquities” gives some shocking insights into the behavior of another type of patriarchal society that treated women and almost everyone else worse than animals. One of the most marked exceptions is that they treated the rich guys like gods at least until they could manage to get the best of them somehow.

    Can you shed some insight on when/how it became “manly” to protect the “lil woman?”

    • Replies: @Sean
  110. Marcus says:
    @jacques sheete

    The founding of Israel only directly affected one small corner of the Arab world, this shouldn’t be that hard to grasp. Well, you could say that Arab defeats led to the rise of more distasteful ideologies in the broader region, but I think this is overstated: local factors more important.

  111. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    Fred and his immigration proponents

    Fred Reed is not an immigration proponent.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  112. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    115th!

    Bonus points if you can identify the following without searching:

    I
    Behold, my child, the Nordic man,
    And be as like him, as you can;
    His legs are long, his mind is slow,
    His hair is lank and made of tow.

    II
    And here we have the Alpine Race:
    Oh! What a broad and foolish face!
    His skin is of a dirty yellow.
    He is a most unpleasant fellow.

    III
    The most degraded of them all
    Mediterranean we call.
    His hair is crisp, and even curls,
    And he is saucy with the girls.

    • Replies: @AureliusMoner
  113. Europe didn’t begin with the adoption of the Catholic Church, the Latin people or Roman Empire. Such love of empire people have.Sumeria, Rome, Egypt, Persia, Inca, Aztec, Siam, Mayan etc… Our all seeing eye, our God when we have none. Our God takes care of us, feeds, clothes, watches and punishes, like a father, ever vigilant. Our great Armies and conquests for our God, our love the Empire, the State, whom sits at the top our father. Vast Legions working, worshiping watching protecting the State, the Empire our God our father Our immense treasuries, pyramids, cities, aqueducts, coliseums, games, our genius craftsmen who make our weapons of war.
    I’ve always maintained that the original Europeans were more like the Early American Indians. Small bands of people until they were forced together for their “protection” and to protect the State. Forced together under a religion and handed over to our Father, our God, the Empire, the State.
    Fred Reed’s funny stuff is often just stupid.

  114. The founding of Israel only directly affected one small corner of the Arab world, this shouldn’t be that hard to grasp.

    Well, a bad case of herpes may start out only affecting one very localized part of the body but it can spread its misery all over and can affect others who have to live with the affected individual.

    Nothing about that concept should be so hard to grasp either. But then, if it has to be explained, then maybe it is.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  115. Ben Roham says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Sailer espouses nordic supremacy? I don’t remember reading anything of his that does. What are you thinking of?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  116. Klokman says:

    Well Fred, did they buy up all the 60s wide-track chassis down there, you know the ones with the after market hydraulically assisted low-riding? What else are they going to come up with in a country where the median household disposable income is among the lowest in the world? The world’s best graffiti artists?

    Norway is up there in the # 2 slot. Sweden not as good as Denmark, but better than Germany.

    I once started a geographic plot of inventors/researchers whose works changed the world. It followed the money belt across central Europe, from the Baltics to Italy and the Balkans. Not a particularly warm climate, but a prosperous one. You don’t suppose financial resources, a good education, and a natural curiosity have anything to do with it?

  117. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    Eh? Non ti capisco. Mi capisce, signor?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  118. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Murrays ‘Human Achievement’ is now available online in a searchable format, Northern Europeans deserve their actual reputation if not this idiots farcical one. The net widens into souther and eastern europe if some of the greats actual genetic heritage is taken into account. Obviously whites didnt invent everything and its still not possible to know how ‘white’ some of the early asian and mid eastern civilizations were if at all. And while certainly not saying race is a social construct where one wants to demarcate where Wogs begin is sort of subjective.Ashkenazi jews are 60% northern Italian and Diaspora Jews have certainly contributed a lot to western civilization for better and worse, shall we count the Byzantine along with the Greek and Roman.I would probably claim all four and depending on DNA developments perhaps more,That is not to say people living in those places now are the same people or if they are are salvagable as ‘whites’.I do think though that some who want to abandon whites outside the Hajinal line are wrong, its clear that at least the greek, roman, and Byzantine empires developed in large part outside the lines. Its also obvious that while the Anglospere was founded by well anglos they are in large part Celtic and seem to have had a nice run, Its also clear that Hallstatt/Celtic is pretty much proto norther european and was quite sophisticated certainly sophisticated enough to evolve into the conquerors of Rome, Its not quite Fair to count Rome as a purely northern Italian enterprise either, and italy actually has the highest IQ in Europe.Whats also likely is nothing succeeds like success so an area that has some break through will capitalize on them and have a nice run, currently eastern europe despite its low ranking seems to be the only part of europe to have the intelligence to no invite the hordes in. In short its not over I wouuld predict if northern Europe doesnt succeed in wiping whites off the face of the earth then other parts of Europe will make more contributions.As to the Latins well spain is kind of at least partly celtic as is France/Gaul, Scotland and frankly britain, country genetically and its true that the Spaniards have made great contributions as well and yes in the new world, the author seems to constantly imply the amerindian component is to be given credit thats dubious current white level civilization to the extent it still survives south of the border is in spite of the amerindians not because of.That said Aztec Toltec etc is pretty impressive in its own rite and europeans need not look like stupid Nazis [not that theres anything wrong with that] by pretending no one else invented anything at all or stretching without evidence to claim cultures we cant really prove or who are so far removed you might as well equally take responsibility for african culture.

  119. Sherman says:
    @Rehmat

    Hey Homer

    Whatever “accomplishments” the Muslim world takes credit for were largely accomplished by the Jewish and Christian minorities in their midst.

    Sherm

  120. KenH says:
    @Rich

    Rome and Greece were founded by Germans?Is there a credible historian anywhere who believes that?

    Perhaps not Germans, but definitely a kindred stock of both they and the Celts. See A History of Rome by Cyril Robinson or A History of Rome by Tenney Frank for more evidence. The original Roman settler population did originate far north of Italy (and prior to that likely in the Caucasus region) before slowly migrating south and founding Rome.

    There are also histories of when the Romans first encountered the Germanic tribes, and it wasn’t as long lost cousins.

    This is not proof that they weren’t genetically related peoples. Fratricidal conflict was quite common at that time with Celts fighting Celts and German tribes fighting other German tribes. Even Rome was wracked by destructive civil wars after they had subdued the Celts in Northern Italy, defeated Vercingetorix and the Transalpine Gauls and destroyed Carthage and made Hannibal a hunted vagabond for the rest of his life.

    Reddish and blond hair and light eyes was not unknown in Rome or the Roman army:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1332636/DNA-tests-Chinese-villagers-green-eyes-descendants-lost-Roman-legion.html

  121. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    No, There is no “variation on evolution”.

    There most certainly is. Lamarckism is one. Where’s there’s one, there’s many.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  122. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Ben Roham

    Sailer espouses nordic supremacy? I don’t remember reading anything of his that does. What are you thinking of?

    I don’t pay much attention to Sailer — he’s just trying to make a living, and he’s got as much right to say what he wants as anybody. If he didn’t say “nordic supremacy”, it seems like something he might discuss, whether believing or not.

    • Replies: @ussr andy
  123. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Colleen Pater

    Bravo! Good points made! If you might give some consideration to employing paragraphs, I believe you would quickly rise to Best Commenter status here.

  124. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    No, Lamarckism is not a “variation on evolution”. It’s pseudoscience.

  125. @Colleen Pater

    Ashkenazi Jews are 60 percent Northern Italian.

    No they’re 80 percent Italian on their mtDNA:

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/01/29/southern-italians-and-ashkenazi-jews-what-is-the-connection/

    And it’s Southern, not Northern Italian.

  126. @KenH

    I have read that Rome was actually founded by a people who came from what is now Romania. It has always been assumed that the Romanian language was brought north by Romans who settled there. The alternative theory is that Latin orginated among the peoples that area, who brought it south to the Italian peninsula. Romanian does have features that suggest it is more ancient than the Latin even of Roman times, but not being a linguist I can’t comment on that, but many linguists have. It is just a theory so far. There is no mind harder to change than that of an academic, except perhaps, that of a medical doctor.

    “Jean Carpantier, Guido Manselli, Marco Merlini, Gordon Childe, Marija Gimbutas, Yannick Rialland, M. Riehmschneider, Louis de la Valle Poussin, Olaf Hoekman, John Mandis, William Schiller, Raymond Dart, Lucian Cuesdean, Sbierea, A. Deac, George Denis, Mattie M.E., N. Densuseanu, B.P. Hajdeu, P Bosch, W. Kocka, Vladimir Gheorghiev, H. Henchen, B.V. Gornung, V Melinger, E. Michelet, A. Mozinski, W. Porzig, A. Sahmanov, Hugo Schmidt, W. Tomaschek, F.N. Tretiacov are among the huge number of specialists which consider Romania the place of otehr Europeans origins and Romanian the oldest language in Europe, older even than Sanskrit

    .”
    https://cassiopaea.org/forum/?topic=34031.0

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @KenH
  127. @Rehmat

    “Nothing in Europe could hold candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600 CE,” – Professor Dr. Jamil Rageb (Oklahoma University)….

    Matter of opinion. Considering the extraordinary intellectual animation and physical restlessness going on in Europe towards the end of the middle ages — not just in material advancement, but also in modes of thought — most historians would put that date closer to 1400.

    I say compromise and just say about 1500. Whatever the date, Europe sped by the rest of the civilized world (much less the primitive), with relative lightning speed. That much change in such a short time is bound to cause confusion.It did lose a lot though, in spiritual character. It is now fashionable to concentrate only on the negatives of religion and religious identity, but much good was also done. People speak of art, literature, philosophy, law, the development of cities, without understanding the whole cloth from which it was all woven. You cannot separate European civilization from Christianity, or earlier than that, from the pagan religions extant at the time. Once you lose your religious character, you lose the culture.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    , @KenH
    , @Talha
  128. Sean says:
    @jacques sheete

    The Yamnaya expansion led to sexual selection, which altered the Yamnaya population towards a less masculine hormonal balance. The men didn’t change their ideology they became literally less biologically manly through their male ancestors being able to pick an choose who to have children with from a large excess (eg only 1 in 3 women get their genes into the next generation). The women who would enjoy reproductive fitness were the most striking looking for sure, but also the most feminine: less testosterone (north Europe has the lest testosteroneised digit ratios in the world) and more oxycontin produces a feminine desirable woman with a vulnerable quality that elicits care and provisioning, but also a less masculine man. Sexual selection led to more cognitive empathy. It probably wasn’t a a clear advantage to men, like blond hair it’s a side effect. Oxytocin makes people cooperative and trusting but has another side inasmuch as it can make you energised and capable of great feats in defence of those closest to you over-against anyone who threatens . Probably Europe has historically been been both fractious and difficult to organise but then very efficient and nationalistic for reasons related to the population being skewed to the feminine. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-imprinted-brain/201610/the-dark-side-oxytocin

    Lots of places had the Yamnaya’s patriarchal society imposed on it but only in north Europe is there evidence of sexual selection, and in the modern world Germany Norway and suchlike Yamanaya stamping grounds are where women rights and movements are the strongest.

  129. Rurik says:
    @Anonymous

    Fred Reed is not an immigration proponent.

    if you say so

    but hasn’t his shtick recently been to berate Donald Trump supporters for pooh-poohing Mexican immigration?

    Isn’t that why he’s morphed into a barker for all things Latin?

    Maybe I’ve got it wrong. But in three days time, America is going to vote in the most momentous event of this century. And a whole hell of a lot of ink and vitriol has been spilled over the issue of immigration in general, and Mexican immigration in particular. It seems rather odd to me that Fred was writing about the superiority of Latins over Northern Europeans when the undertones of such a conversation could hardly be ignored- even by a journalist today, vis-à-vis the impending fork in the road Americans are about to decide upon.

    No?

    • Replies: @Anon
  130. Does it even need to be said that Fred’s beloved “Latins” are in no way the same people who he mentions, who are in fact Europeans. The “Latins” Fred lives and sleeps with are Mestizos, at best.

  131. Rurik says:
    @anon

    Grazie

    Ora ho finalmente capito

    (spero ; )

  132. @Gates of Vienna

    Whatever the date, Europe sped by the rest of the civilized world (much less the primitive), with relative lightning speed.

    While that’s true in a lot of ways, I’m impressed that you added this as well, because it’s true too.

    It did lose a lot though, in spiritual character.

    The Fweds of the world seem to operate on the level of cargo cultists or bower birds or sumpin since their “measures” of civilization seem only to include sparkly gee gaws and almost never seem to place much value on the spiritual aspects of human existence.

    I could be wrong tho.

    PS: If a civilization loses all or most of its spiritual character, can it truly be called “civilized?”

  133. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Gates of Vienna

    Older in what sense? Do you mean that modern Romanian, or a mutually intelligible dialect, existed in pre-Roman times? This is a claim that requires some substantiation.

    Otherwise I can’t really make sense of the statement that Romanian has features suggesting it is “more ancient” than Latin of the time of the conquest. I can only assume this to mean that Romanian exhibits some sort of phonological or grammatical archaism typical of early Latin (or maybe of Oscan or Umbrian?). If true, that is very interesting, but I don’t know what it would show. The problem with Latin is that it seems to have existed in a continuum of dialects over various places, times, and social classes, only some of which we know well. It might be that soldiers speaking a Latin dialect retaining what would now be considered archaisms for the first century introduced the language. It may even be, which I think the thread you link is suggesting, that Italic dialects were spoken in Dacia prior to colonization and retained as a substratum.

    Again, if true, I don’t know what, if anything, this would suggest. Unfortunately, I don’t think it suggests anything at all about the genetic origin of Italic-speakers. If better substantiated it seems to be at present, perhaps it might be an argument that prehistoric contacts existed between what is now Romania and the Italian peninsula, being cut off by later migrations of other peoples.

    • Replies: @Gates of Vienna
  134. Svigor says:

    The extreme fringe of the Nordicist movement; now there’s a rampaging beast in need of slaying. Kudos on your priorities, my callow friend. Took real courage to face down that dragon. You gonna kick some puppies next, or will you be too busy stealing candy from babies?

  135. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    See “Diversity as a Civilizational Nightmare” for Fred’s opinion of the title subject. Elsewhere Fred praises Mexican immigration laws (much stricter than ours), and usually punctuates his defense/praise of Mexicans with a statement or two that he doesn’t like mass immigration, or would prefer that America remain majority white.

    I don’t know Fred, and I can’t vouch for his opinions. I’d tell you to ask him yourself, but with his eye he really doesn’t do too much email-reading. Nevertheless he seems to have been once essentially an HBDer, and to have subsequently modified his views. It would be absurd to think of him as anti-white or even anti-Nordic. I think his principal audience is the folks on here (or who read his column at his own website), who are generally in little danger of becoming anti-white or proponents of mass immigration.

    Where Fred and I presumably agree is in that one may be an ardent admirer of the accomplishments of a certain civilisation, or of a certain race, without wanting its members in your country in large numbers. I am an ardent Hispanophile; I admire Spanish/Portuguese culture and achievement, and their especially great contribution to the spiritual world, and I don’t think the great mess that befell the whole Hispanic world for the length of the nineteenth century should be held against them. I admire Franco to some extent, Salazar to a greater extent, and the Cristeros to a much greater extent. I am aware that the first university in the Americas was in Peru and the first North American university in Mexico. The point is, so what? Mexicans can be wonderful people but it doesn’t mean I want them here, to dramatically alter the face of my native country*. Same goes for Chinese, Japanese, Finns, or anyone else.

    It is a great temptation for people who resist immigration to point at the races or countries from which this immigration comes and argue that their people are undesirable in America (or wherever) because they would be undesirable anywhere; they are filthy brutes or criminal lunatics or feeble-minded idiots or whatever. This is almost never a good argument and almost always ends up rebounding on the arguer.

    As far as I know (only Fred would know with any certainty), the majority of Fred’s regular readers are anti-immigration already, and know why. So Fred, having determined not to preach to the proverbial choir, is in fact not doing so.

    *Incidentally, I think Mexico made an enormous mistake in allowing great American immigration, legal or otherwise, in the early nineteenth century. Why should we make the same mistake in reverse?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  136. KenH says:
    @Gates of Vienna

    Islamic advancement and achievement has been embellished and overstated and they are often given credit for things they appropriated from conquered peoples. For example, Muslims had to rely on shipwrights from conquered nations like Egypt to build vessels which in many cases had to be sailed by Byzantine and other mercenaries. So this would dispel claims that Muslims were great shipbuilders and seaman. After their great victory in 717 it was all downhill from there as not only were Arab Muslim navies routinely defeated but at times utterly annihilated by the smaller Byzantine navies.

    The crossbow used by the crusaders and chain mail that they wore was superior to the bow used by Saracens which couldn’t penetrate the chain mail. Muslims failed to engineer better weapons to compete with those of the European crusaders and this allowed the crusaders to continually inflict high casualties on much larger Muslim armies.

    And what of the supposed Muslim commitment to learning? Most of the libraries throughout the Middle East were mostly the work of Nestorian Christian monks. Saladin closed the library at Cairo and discarded the books presumably because they were insufficiently Islamic.

    This isn’t to say that Muslims weren’t advanced in some respects, but for Muslims like Rehmat to claim that Muslims were highly civilized, advanced and innovative while Europeans between say, AD 650 to AD 1400, were essentially a stone age people bespeaks a colossal ignorance and highly partisan and cherry picked reading of world history.

  137. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Pierrej

    No, Lamarckism is not a “variation on evolution”. It’s pseudoscience.

    Maybe. Can you prove it? Shucks, you can’t even convince a Jesuit that evolution is true.

    True or not true, Lamarckism is a variant of theories on evolution.

    BTW, you don’t have to change aliases to stalk me. I know who you are.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  138. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Sean

    Jesus, what a truckload of bullshit. A veritable Peterbilt 567.

    • Replies: @Sean
  139. KenH says:
    @Gates of Vienna

    I never heard that but I guess it’s possible. But even if true the people in ancient times that occupied the land now known as Romania would have been racially distinct from contemporary Romanians.

    It has always been assumed that the Romanian language was brought north by Romans who settled there.

    Again, I haven’t heard this, but that would be possible given that the Romans had colonies and outposts in central Europe. I’m not a linguist but a study in similarities between Roman Latin and the language of Romania would be needed to prove this belief.

  140. Art says:
    @Bragadocious

    There’s a lot to be said for this. Before the Romans arrived the native Britons were a cannibal race who worshiped rocks. It ain’t genetics, it’s socialization and commerce with your neighbors. The ancient Athenians and Romans had this in spades.

    Hear – hear. Human advancement depends on the reigning intellectual culture one lives within.

    The pseudo-intellectuals of our time always leave out Christianity and Christian philosophy in the mix of reasons for human advancement. Christian philosophy champions intellectual based cooperation between peoples. Dividing Europeans into north and south is a bogus argument. There was “intellectual” movement between all those peoples.

    Jesus was born into Greek and Roman philosophical worlds. They both were republics were the individual citizen was valued.

    Clearly Christian philosophy took those shared values to the next intellectual level of thinking. It applied them to everyone. The advancement of mankind was the result.

    p.s. Sorry but the whole argument about tribal superiority is bogus – knowledge does not know north or south or tribe – knowledge is intellectual – any human can have knowledge. When knowledge is used for political tribal purposes- war is the result. Is that not where we are at today – tribal war thinking?

    Gonad thinking is anti-intellectual.

    p.s. It is time to go back to Christian philosophy and the freedom it fosters — and work for peace.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  141. DaveE says:

    American blacks invented all the really good music and Chinese invented all the really good food. But apart from those minor anomalies, I totally agree with you, Fred.

    What’s even better is seeing the Jewish Cultural Marxists running for their lives. Well, soon……

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    , @Rich
  142. The accomplishments of the West and pre-1964 America speak for themselves. If Jews, Latinos, Asians or Africans claim to be superior to whites, I don’t care. Just let them live their superior lives outside of America and the West. It’s no skin off my back if they create great societies on their own, but it is skin off my back if they invade and destroy mine.

    • Replies: @Elspeth Mcgillicudy
  143. Pierrej says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    BTW, you don’t have to change aliases to stalk me. I know who you are.

    That’s an odd thing to say. Pierre is the only name I’ve used on this site. After you replied to me, I happened to recognize your posting/commenting style from about a week or two ago. lol

    you can’t even convince a Jesuit that evolution is true.

    I don’t particularly care what anybody believes is true or not. It makes not a lick of difference in the big scheme of things. Plus, I think it’s good that people are questioning the dominant theories anyway. However, there are clearly a lot of people here who’ve already made up their minds on many issues. I wish them the best of luck.

    True or not true, Lamarckism is a variant of theories on evolution.

    oh jeez…

    Lamarckism is not an observably factual variation of the evolutionary process.

    There. Am I being bit clearer for you now?

  144. @Sean

    Interesting stuff, and makes sense to me. In fact, I posted, over on one of Linh Dinh’s columns that no doubt one of the reasons why crackers tend to dislike “blacks” is that “blacks” are often seem more masculine. That’s likely one reason Whitey tends to jealousy.

    It looks like we did lose @MCPO USN which is unfortunate. However, all this probably explains why Churchill is said to have quipped that the Royal Navy is nothing but rum, sodomy, and the lash!

    • Replies: @Sean
  145. @Art

    p.s. It is time to go back to Christian philosophy and the freedom it fosters — and work for peace.

    While I’m no bible scholar by a long shot, and although I’m aware that there are many versions of the texts and that the English versions are translations of translations of translations and therefore highly prone to error, I long ago got the impression that a lot of it could be read as appeals and advice for freedom. No wonder gubmints hate it.

    One of the big problems for any belief, religious, scientific, or whatever is that they inevitably get corrupted and the “rot” sets in quickly.

    • Replies: @Art
  146. Marcus says:
    @jacques sheete

    So are you going to offer any evidence for Israel being culpable for the longstanding primitive, ignorant reality of the vast Arab world or are you going to wax poetic about herpes some more? I’m not an Israel supporter, but it’s well-known that the Arabs who live in Israel proper are freer and better off than their counterparts elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @jacques sheete
  147. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    To clarify, women did have careers and did go to school in the past, but they did not put their careers ahead of their families for the most part, though there was always a small population of barren women in NW European societies (see the Boston marriage phenomenon). My grandmothers both went secondary schools and worked when they needed to, but they readily put a modern-style career aside to raise children, by contrast most of their daughters did not.

    • Replies: @Talha
  148. @John Jeremiah Smith

    I wonder if sometimes Fred regrets his decision to let the brown mellow. I think he writes these snarky cowboy asides as a way to cheer himself up.

  149. @Pierrej

    Astrology is just a variation on astronomy, you know.

    • Replies: @Pierrej
  150. vcragain says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Seems that all of those claiming white supremacy on this site are forgetting the Islamic cultures of Northern Africa, they were rather black-skinned & had great gardens & water pools & libraries of their writings & philosophy well before the rise of European culture, in fact while the streets of European cities were sewers ! They didn’t need any white people to ‘show’ them how to be civilized – that trend has popped up in lots of places without a white face in sight for many miles ! So all human cultures seem to be able to arise & grow into a civilization, and the brains of all can be expanded based it seems on what stimuli & ideas arise and are allowed to grow. It is also true that a lot of what we as Europeans see as ‘primitive’ are not actually that at all, merely different & not easily understood by those from a culture widely different. As for the current status of what Europeans regard as the highest level of culture – well ‘we’ have achieved amazing things, and yet still so far from real civilization – ie fairness & graciousness & a loving attitude to all other creatures, including other humans, and a realization that our own ‘cleverness’ may have set in motion the destruction of this planet, with only a short time to fix that we may be the last generations to enjoy what has taken billions of years to create – and we think we are superior ?
    I think a real sense of humility & readiness to embrace our failings is in order !!!!!
    Also to be kept in mind is that the history of this planet & what humans were doing & what they achieved is slowly being rolled back thousands of years well before ‘accepted’ history – Gobekli Tepe being merely one example – 12600 years old and completely upsetting the ‘apple cart’ as far as known factual history is concerned.

  151. Art says:
    @jacques sheete

    While I’m no bible scholar by a long shot, and although I’m aware that there are many versions of the texts and that the English versions are translations of translations of translations and therefore highly prone to error, I long ago got the impression that a lot of it could be read as appeals and advice for freedom. No wonder gubmints hate it.

    Each religion has two aspects to it – one is about our relationship to some deity or god (i.e., religion) – the other is our relationship to each other (i.e., philosophy). The philosophies tell us how to live with each other.

    Of all the philosophies – only one has brought freedom to humanity – the Christian philosophy. With this there can be no quarrel.

    It is not the biological quality of the people that has mades a difference – it is the intellectual quality and correctness of the philosophy. There are smart people all over the planet. The Indians and Chinese have many brilliant people. But they also have biological casts, clans, and tribes that keep them back.

    Christianity has a leg up because of the hopeful intellectual idealism found in its philosophy, that leads to scientific truth and social freedom.

  152. Avery says:
    @vcragain

    {Seems that all of those claiming white supremacy on this site are forgetting the Islamic cultures of Northern Africa, they were rather black-skinned & had great gardens & water pools & libraries of their writings & philosophy well before the rise of European culture, in fact while the streets of European cities were sewers ! }

    Oh, Please.

    Please, pretty please: list a few Muslim countries today that are advanced, orderly, prosperous, peaceful,……
    And the only reason gulf sheikhdoms are prosperous is because the West figured out a way to use the tremendous energy density of hydrocarbons that Arabs nomads happen to be sitting on.
    Without the West needing oil, nomadic desert tribes of Saudi Arabia would revert to their traditional lifestyles of desert nomads.

    And which posters are claiming ‘white supremacy’?
    Listing one’s accomplishment is not the same as claiming ‘ supremacy’

    {Also to be kept in mind is that the history of this planet & what humans were doing & what they achieved is slowly being rolled back thousands of years well before ‘accepted’ history – Gobekli Tepe being merely one example – 12600 years old and completely upsetting the ‘apple cart’ as far as known factual history is concerned.}

    Which ‘apple cart’ would that be?
    You wouldn’t intimate the Muslim ‘apple cart’, would you?
    Because the ‘Muslim Turkish’ Gobekli Tepe is Armenian ‘“Portasar”.
    UygurTürkoğlar nomads from Uyguristan appeared in Asia Minor around 1,000AD. Armenians have been there for 1,000s of years.
    Do the math.

  153. geokat62 says:
    @vcragain

    [Islamic cultures] didn’t need any white people to ‘show’ them how to be civilized…

    Not sure if this is a factual statement:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_contributions_to_Islamic_world

    • Replies: @Talha
  154. Pierrej says:
    @Feric Jaggar

    As in… there’s evidence for astrology?

    Maybe I should bring my dob and SCT with me next time I go in for my daily horoscope reading?

    My point was that it is possible that recent evolution occurred in humans due to selection factors; not due to some mysterious ‘variation on evolution’.

  155. @DaveE

    Chinese invented all the really good food

    Yes, the Chinese make the worlds best hot dogs.

  156. Art says:
    @Marcus

    So are you going to offer any evidence for Israel being culpable for the longstanding primitive, ignorant reality of the vast Arab world or are you going to wax poetic about herpes some more? I’m not an Israel supporter, but it’s well-known that the Arabs who live in Israel proper are freer and better off than their counterparts elsewhere.

    Oh my — another fiction put out by ZZ (Zionist Zombie) Hasbara Central. The majority of Arabs that live in Saudi, the Emirates, Lebanon, and Syria (before being attacked by Zionist and Wahhabi surrogates) do not live in desperate economic circumstances.

    The Arabs in Israel live in the bottom rung of a cast system – they are loathed and discriminated against in the Jewish State. Their freedom of movement is restricted. Their representatives in the Knesset are routinely jailed for speaking up for their voters.

    No question but that Arabs do not have it good in this world – but saying things are good for them in Israel is another Zionist lie.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  157. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Art

    Of all the philosophies – only one has brought freedom to humanity – the Christian philosophy. With this there can be no quarrel.

    LOL. You’re joking, of course.

    Christianity has a leg up because of the hopeful intellectual idealism found in its philosophy, that leads to scientific truth and social freedom.

    LOL. Now you’ve gone from mild humor to a real side-splitter.

    • Replies: @Art
  158. Marcus says:
    @Art

    Compared to the very elite in the Gulf, they do have it good to other Arabs. And Gulf Arabs have no democratic representation, if you’re a believer in that sort of thing.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Talha
  159. CM says:

    I wonder though, did Italians go through dysgenics in the past few centuries? Italy is still a great country, but its scientific and technological contributions to the world have been relatively low for quite some time now. The number of Nobel Prizes it has per capita is lower than Liberia, Macedonia and Bosnia. Of its 20 Nobel Prize winners, 4 were also Sephardic Jews, so the ethnic Italians themselves actually have very few Nobel Prizes. Is this not very low for the land of Da Vinci and Galilei? What happened to the Italians?

    • Replies: @Anon
  160. Rich says:
    @KenH

    Red hair is also not unknown in North Africa, but I would refer you to Julius Caesar’s “Gallic Wars” where he writes about the Gauls making fun of the Romans for their short stature and writes extensively about differences in the Northerner’s light hair color. Tacitus also wrote of the Germans and described their different hair color and eye color. Many German and Celtic, as well as as other Northern European people were enslaved by the Romans or allied themselves with the Romans, and inter-ethnic mixing could also explain lighter hair and eye color. Let’s not forget, there are plenty of Northern Euros with dark hair and eyes also.

    Of course, if the myth of Germanic supremacism makes you feel good, enjoy. I’m sure one of these days the Germans will win a war and make you proud.

    • Agree: RaceRealist88
    • Replies: @KenH
  161. Rich says:
    @DaveE

    American blacks invented all the really good music? Really? Mozart, Beethoven and Vivaldi were American blacks? They didn’t even invent your American rock and roll, that came from Celtic folk music that black American slaves picked up from the mostly Scottish Whites that lived in the area. You can’t even give them that horrible “rap” thing they call music, it’s just a cheap copy of the “beat” poets of the mid-20th century.
    When I was in grade school, I was told they invented peanut butter, I’m not too sure about that, but I’ll give it to you, if you want it.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  162. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @CM

    Why are you counting peace prizes to determine “scientific and technological contributions to the world”? Also, by picking Liberia or Macedonia you are committing a fallacy often referenced here, the “United Nations fallacy”. Italy does much better than, say, sub-Saharan Africa as a whole (not saying much, I know), or than East or South Asia, or than (if my arithmetic is correct) the Balkans as a whole. True, Italy does much worse than Germany, France, Scandinavia, Britain, and the US. But remember that Italy was a (relatively) poor nation and a secondary power during most of this period, and that nations go through cycles of creativity and lack thereof. I don’t think dysgenics is needed as an explanation here.

  163. Art says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Of all the philosophies – only one has brought freedom to humanity – the Christian philosophy. With this there can be no quarrel.

    LOL. You’re joking, of course.

    Christianity has a leg up because of the hopeful intellectual idealism found in its philosophy, that leads to scientific truth and social freedom.

    LOL. Now you’ve gone from mild humor to a real side-splitter.

    Gee – does empty sarcasm and mocking laughter nullify reasoned thought?

    Is that all it takes?

    Amazing – how intellectual of you.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  164. Art says:
    @Marcus

    And Gulf Arabs have no democratic representation, if you’re a believer in that sort of thing.

    Hmm – what good has democracy done for the Palestinians in Israel? The fact is that by the day they lose more freedom.

    For sure the Arabs in the ME will know freedom before the Arabs in Israel.

    p.s. I do believe in voting as a way of maintaining a just society.

  165. @OilcanFloyd

    …and let their own governments be responsible for them. Why do WE have to take them in just because their countries suck? Not my problem. Stop ruining my kids’ schools and making it so I have to move.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
  166. @Rich

    “Mozart”

    “Beethoven”

    Learn true history, bigot.

    “When I was in grade school, I was told they invented peanut butter, I’m not too sure about that, but I’ll give it to you, if you want it.”

    They’re idiots. There is evidence of peanuts being mashed 6500 ya. The Aztecs mashed peanuts. Even then, Marcellus Gilmore Edson, a Canadian, was the man to patent peanut butter.

  167. EH says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    I, for one, am appalled. That a MPCO USN should descend to such language! Send the syphilitic rectal prolapse back to remedial cursing and give him a grade lower than a snake’s cunt if can’t learn how to fucking swear!

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  168. Talha says:
    @Gates of Vienna

    Hey GoV,

    Excellent points – all of them! There is no doubt that Europeans have held up the flag of scientific advancement and innovation for basically the last 500 years.

    As I drive through the areas of Chicagoland, I am constantly amazed at the beauty of the architecture of the various old-style churches; Lutheran, Catholic, Greek Orthodox – some of them around the corner from each other. Likewise, I am often shocked by the ghastliness of (post)modern archtecture.

    Peace.

  169. @Marcus

    So are you going to offer any evidence for Israel being culpable for the longstanding primitive, ignorant reality of the vast Arab world

    So are you going to offer any evidence for the “longstanding primitive, ignorant reality of the vast Arab world,” or are you content to parrot sappy propaganda?

    I’d say there’s plenty of ignorance all around, including the primitive behavior of your pals.

    I’m not an Israel supporter, but it’s well-known that the Arabs who live in Israel proper are freer and better off than their counterparts elsewhere.

    Well known? The onus probandi is on you.

    PS: I didn’t know that wax and poems were cures for herpes. Have you tried google?

    • Replies: @Marcus
  170. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Hey Marcus,

    I’ve been to Egypt – it’s not Copenhagen, but most people do fairly well there. I can’t imagine anyone thinking of swapping with an Arab in Israel. Maybe the dirt poor of rural Yemen might benefit, but the majority of the Arab world does OK (again, not comparing them to Europe) as long as their countries aren’t shattered.

    And Gulf Arabs have no democratic representation

    Democracy is overrated; there are so many policies in democratic countries that are in place that the vast majority of the populace is opposed to but cannot get changed. We have our elite, they have theirs – they are just more open about it. Democratic system is based on – no taxation without representation.

    The Saudis counter with; no taxation, no representation. They only tax the corporations and business class, your random working individual pays no tax:
    “However, they are not taxed on personal or employment income but only on business income earned. Individuals not conducting business or professional activity are not taxed on interest or dividend income.”
    https://en.portal.santandertrade.com/establish-overseas/saudi-arabia/tax-system

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  171. Talha says:
    @geokat62

    Hey Geo,

    I think Rehmat kicked off a really silly discussion with his overly provocative statement. With people piling in with some ridiculous claims and some legitimate claims.

    First off, Islam is a religion. To say it brings science or material progress to the world is insipid. If it did, then its birthplace in the Hijaz would have been the epicenter of scientific revolution and innovation. Rather it is interested in something far more important; peoples’ salvation. In fact, it deliberately dismisses material progress as the end-all of human existence. It does encourage the seeking of knowledge – but that has never been restricted to meaning only the material science or only other than it:
    http://www.brill.com/knowledge-triumphant

    Now, as far as the realm of scientific advancement (medicine, mathematics, astronomy, etc.); that is left up to the individual cultures that come into Islam. For instance, Yemen has remained basically rural and with scant scientific contributions since the 7th century. The Tuareg have also been largely nomadic herders even though they accepted Islam centuries ago. The Persians are another story. Islam did not bring them advanced civilization, they already had it. However, it was the Muslim Persian polymaths (and people of Transoxiana) that made some of the most original medieval contributions to the earlier Hellenistic works in science and medicine or even integrated the scientific ideas of the Dharmic and Chinese civilizations to their East. The Arabs also had their polymaths and scientific geniuses, but note that they didn’t come out of the Hijaz or other nomadic people. Rather they were the ones living in areas of advanced civilization like Persia or the Levant or Egypt.

    What Islam did do was smash the barriers erected between the people from the Visigothic kingdoms in Spain, the Byzantine presence in the Levant and North Africa and the Sassanid one Persia and greater Transoxiana. At that point, began a free flow of information (in a single medium – Arabic – which it also introduced) that was unheard of in the past to such a degree, which is why a Muslim Arab sitting in Granada was reading, criticizing or commenting on works written by some Muslim Persian (or Uzbek) from Nishapur. The intellectual curiosity of the various people (or lack thereof) wrote the rest of the history.

    Peace.

  172. @Elspeth Mcgillicudy

    Exactly! These people are not my problem, and destroying middle America is only adding to the dysfunction and misery.

    I graduated with most of the people I went to kindergarten with, and the ones that I didn’t graduate with, many went to a neighboring school. 15 years after graduating from high school, I read in the local paper that the same school where I went to kindergarten has a yearly student turnover rate of 75%, due to illegals parking their kids in the schools for daycare and then moving on. That’s certainly not genius, high culture or progress in action. Say what you want about the intelligence of middle and working class whites, but we did create stable and livable neighborhoods.

  173. @Talha

    In fact, it deliberately dismisses material progress as the end-all of human existence.

    Goodness, don’t let the Fwedophiles see that; they seem to think material progress is the only thing of value. You may have just started WW3! 🙂

  174. Talha says:
    @vcragain

    Hey vcragain,

    Also to be kept in mind is that the history of this planet & what humans were doing & what they achieved is slowly being rolled back thousands of years well before ‘accepted’ history

    I think this is an important point. I don’t think the picture is clear yet what pre-history looks like. We are discovering more and more which is bound to uproot our current understanding. A while ago, I remember coming across these scenes of forests encroaching upon cemeteries of just about 150 years ago:
    http://pacificnorthwestadventures.weebly.com/blog/category/coos-couny-cemeteries

    And these are cemeteries with modern-type markers; elaborate headstones made of cement, etc. Now imagine these same burial grounds to be marked with more primitive markers and the work of a forest over say 200 centuries. I think we have only a fraction of knowledge of what’s buried in the earth or lost human dwellings.

    Also, unfortunately, there may indeed be dogmatic biases in place when dealing with this subject. Those findings that seem to contradict current popular theories are at times dismissed off hand. I’m not much interested in corny theories or way out-of-left-field notions like aliens seeding earth or something, but this talk by Michael Cremo is one of the best I’ve heard about how established dogma can get in the way of progress on this subject:

    Peace.

  175. geokat62 says:
    @Talha

    However, it was the Muslim Persian polymaths (and people of Transoxiana) that made some of the most original medieval contributions to the earlier Hellenistic works in science and medicine…

    Hey, Talha.

    Glad to see you acknowledge the role Hellenism played in shaping the Islamic world. If you’re interested in studying this topic further, I highly recommend the book Sailing from Byzantium – How a lost empire shaped the world.

    Here’s a summary:

    Comprehensive examination of the formative influence of Byzantine culture and scholarship on Western Europe, the Islamic world and the Slavic nations.

    First-time author Wells breaks up the saga of Constantinople (Byzantium to the ancient world) into three sections based on the principle cultures it helped shape – Western Europe, the Islamic world and the Slavic nations – from the time of Emperor Justinian’s rule in the sixth century a.d. until the year 1453, when the Turks finally overwhelmed the legendary walled city and made it their capital…

    https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/colin-wells/sailing-from-byzantium/

    Part II focuses on what would appear to be two diametrically opposed civilisations; that of the Byzantines and the Islamic World. We are presented with a detailed picture of Muhammad’s journeys, the rise of the then new religion of Islam and it’s steady rise to prominence, the sudden outward expansion of Islam and the inevitable clashes with the Byzantines and the west, it’s height of power under it’s greatest rulers of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates and the “golden age of Islamic Learning” attained through their exposure to and translation of Greek texts, which would shape the world of Islam for years to come

    We can thank Byzantium for the great Renaissance that followed medieval times, the enlightenment of learning for the Islamic peoples and quite a large amount of modern Russia’s culture, architecture and history.

    http://www.unrv.com/book-review/sailing-from-byzantium.php

    Peace

    • Replies: @Talha
  176. rakewind says:
    @Bragadocious

    I’m guessing that linguistics and contemporary archaeology aren’t exactly your strong suits?

  177. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Art

    Amazing – how intellectual of you.

    If I had responded with intellect, you would merely have been confused and angry. As it was, I gave you something palpable to wrap your fantasy around.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  178. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @EH

    I, for one, am appalled. That a MPCO USN should descend to such language! Send the syphilitic rectal prolapse back to remedial cursing and give him a grade lower than a snake’s cunt if can’t learn how to fucking swear!

    You may be appalled, but you still don’t know the difference between parody and satire. That makes you stupid, and stubborn. As to whether or not you’re a draining vulva, I don’t know. Could be.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  179. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Everything in moderation.

    Peace.

  180. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Jeezzz,

    please [un]mature,

    just SHUT UP,

    kisses in your heaart…

    someone is unemployed here, humm…

    ”Lamarck boy”

    huahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

  181. KenH says:
    @Rich

    Red hair is also not unknown in North Africa….

    And just how do you think that happened? It was due migrations of Indo-Europeans or Caucasian people with that hair color….it doesn’t occur naturally in North Africa. There were also many tribes of vanquished Celts who were sold into slavery by the Romans and no doubt more than a few wound up in the slave markets of N. Africa where their genetic legacy endures in small numbers. Also, the Germanic Vandals settled N. Africa after being forced out of Spain by the Visigoths.

    ….but I would refer you to Julius Caesar’s “Gallic Wars” where he writes about the Gauls making fun of the Romans for their short stature and writes extensively about differences in the Northerner’s light hair color.

    Rome was founded in 753BC while the period you are referring to with Julius Ceasar’s conflict with the Gauls would be around 80BC to 40BC or seven centuries later. No doubt the Romans eventually interbred to some extent with the native Sabine, Samnite and other surrounding Italic tribes and I’ve read histories that speak to this. So over time they took on a more Alpine-Mediterranean appearance but that was not the archetype of early Rome and there were still incidences of red/reddish and blond/blondish hair. Emperor Augustus who ruled after Caesar was blond haired.

    People make gods in their own image and most, if not all, of the Roman gods and goddesses are fair skinned and fair haired, not diminutive and olive skinned.

    Of course, if the myth of Germanic supremacism makes you feel good, enjoy.

    Reading comprehension 101: I said the founding Roman population was a similar racial stock just like the Celts were similar to the Germanic tribes and vice versa. If you read history books written before the Marxist revolution of 1965 there’s some consensus among historians on this point.

    I’m sure the Rich’s and Fred Reed’s of the future will be disputing the claim that the USA was founded and settled by whites and then predominantly from the British Isles (although there were also plenty of dastardly Germans especially in Pennsylvania and New York). People like you and Fred Reed will point to the Mestizo majority at the time of our fall as proof that America and was founded and built by Mestizos.

    • Replies: @Rich
  182. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Quieto sua ameba!!

    O hospício estava cheio*

    (”comentários” espetacul(o)res…)

  183. @Anon

    Otherwise I can’t really make sense of the statement that Romanian has features suggesting it is “more ancient” than Latin of the time of the conquest. I can only assume this to mean that Romanian exhibits some sort of phonological or grammatical archaism typical of early Latin (or maybe of Oscan or Umbrian?).

    If you follow the link I sent you’ll see why. There’s a chart showing the etymology and evolution of words. It traces back to Sanskrit, template for the “Aryan” language family. You can judge for yourself.

    • Replies: @Anon
  184. Avery says:
    @Talha

    { The Persians are another story. Islam did not bring them advanced civilization, they already had it. However, it was the Muslim Persian polymaths (and people of Transoxiana) ….}

    Yo, Talha:

    Why do you emphasize Muslim Persian?
    Why do you feel Islam had anything to do with Persian polymaths?
    As you correctly state, Persians had advanced civilization and (I add) scientific achievement 1,000 of years before arrival of Islam.

    We don’t talk about ‘Christian German’ scientific achievement, for example.
    We talk about German scientific achievement, or French, or Italian, and such.
    Religion certainly is part of the mix: scientists live in a society, so the environment certainly plays a role. But I attribute the lion’s share to non-religious factors.

    And oftentimes, religion is a hindrance.
    To wit, in my Armenian ancestors’ case, 1,000 of years of scientific achievement was lost when Christianity came to Armenia. In their zeal for the new God, the 1,000s of years of achievements during the times of Armenian pagan gods were either deliberately obscured or destroyed.
    Some of it being re-discovered now, but sadly, most are permanently gone.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Avery
  185. Talha says:
    @geokat62

    Hey Geo,

    Glad to see you acknowledge the role Hellenism played in shaping the Islamic world.

    This reality cannot be escaped. Sunni Orthodoxy is comprised of those who follow either the Ash’ari, Maturidi or Athari creeds. Mostly, they differ in semantics but the positions expounded specifically by the Ash’ari and Maturidis would not have come about without resort to logic found in Hellenistic works to refute some of the philosophical premises of those same works. Though the Sunni Orthodoxy never accepted all of Greek philosophy, it gained tremendously from debating it and the tools for rational inquiry it brought to the table.

    And that is just the philosophical side. Hellenistic works on medicine, mathematics, astronomy were basically consumed wholesale. Is there an Ibn al-Haytham (ra) without Ptolemy or Euclid?
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ibn-al-Haytham

    Peace.

  186. Talha says:
    @Avery

    Yo Avery,

    I thought I was pretty clear as to the demarcations between culture and religion in this aspect. The reason I chose to put Muslim in front of Persian is for those people who are writing nonsense that all the scientific work was done by the Christian or Jewish minorities in Muslim lands – that is bunk (though the Christians did indeed make a major contribution in the original translations of the works in Syriac or Greek or Coptic into Arabic).

    Why do you feel Islam had anything to do with Persian polymaths?

    Because it provided an environment for them to do their work. Let’s assume the Sassanids and the Byzantines were still around at that point – do you really think that kind of information exchange would have happened? Would Zoroastrian Persians be crawling through the philosophical works of a rival (often military) civilization like the Greek or Romans – or vice versa? Or caring to share information on medicine and astronomy with them?

    And yes, a good number of them were actually devout and credentialed theologians along with their scientific credentials – graduates from seminaries in Baghdad, Nishapur, Cordoba, etc. Islam (generally) does not have that same track record of destroying scientific achievements (as you cite in the Armenian case) – if it did, they wouldn’t have commissioned the translation of Greek works, but rather had them burnt.

    We don’t talk about ‘Christian German’ scientific achievement

    We should when people bring up idiotic notions that just because someone is a Christian or believes in God, that they are barred from making rational inquiry or scientific achievements. Newton wrote commentary on the Bible, Leibniz wrote much in defense of rationality of belief in God, Faraday was very religious and actually looking for insights into the presence of God in the universe with his work, etc.

    I’m totally fine with leaving Islam or Christianity or Hinduism out of it and simply dealing with the various ethno-linguistic peoples and their specific contributions if everyone else is.

    Peace.

  187. Avery says:
    @Avery

    Forgot to note this above: similarly, greatest scientific achievements of Greeks were B.C. Greek creativity seems to have died off with the adoption of Christianity.

    Maybe it was a coincidence, or maybe cause-and-effect.
    Don’t know.

  188. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Gates of Vienna

    1. I wouldn’t call Sanskrit exactly a “template for the Aryan language family”. Sanskrit is (afaicr) the oldest IE language of which we have a relatively complete understanding, but it represents an extreme eastern branch of the IE family.

    2. Most of the “Sanskrit” borrowings/links/whatever are extremely suspect. “Dusman”, for instance, is almost certainly a Turkish loanword; development of “apa” water matches Sardinian “abba”, etc. If you go through the list given word by word you will see this. My patience wore out before I finished the list, though, so it is possible actual cognates exist independent of the Latin or other Italic languages exist. Assume this is true. What does this show? The most that can then be said is that Dacian was an IE language (which is pretty much assumed already), perhaps being related to the Iranic branch, or perhaps in its own branch. What would certainly not be shown is evidence that Dacian was an Italic language. I’m not saying that this (Dacian=Italic) is impossible, but there is no real substantiation at present for such a claim.

    • Replies: @Anon
  189. jeppo says:

    Instead of sarcastically dismissing “Nordicism” as waycis pseudoscience, why not try to prove or disprove its validity?

    Using a light complexion (hair, eyes) as proxy for Nordic phenotype, here’s a list of 55 nations – from Finland to Saudi Arabia – ranked by the “Nordicness” of their Caucasian populations, with the disclaimer:

    The stats ignore recent immigration influences in Europe and include only Caucasian Latin Americans, non-Hispanic Whites and Slavic Russians respectively for the US and Russia.

    * Light Hair – includes Blond, Red and Light Brown hair color
    * Light Eyes – includes eyes of predominantly Blue, Gray or Green color

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?35882-New-Hair-and-Eye-color-statistics-(2011)

    Compare with the 2015 Human Development Index:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

    It doesn’t follow a straight line and there are significant outliers (Israel, Saudi Arabia), but, in general, the lighter-complexioned the nation, the higher the standard of living.

    Among the “Nordic” (aka Northwest European, aka Anglo-Germanic) nations (Scandinavia, Benelux, German-speaking countries, Anglosphere), all 14 listed are in the top 24 of both lists.

    The Latin and Greek European nations are next on both lists, followed by the Latin Americans, and then the Middle Easterners.

    Among the 19 post-communist nations of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union listed, a more Nordic phenotype is roughly but definitely correlated with a higher HDI score, from Estonia (ranked #4 on phenotype; #30 on HDI) down to Armenia (#47 on phenotype; #85 on HDI).

    This doesn’t necessarily prove that lighter-complexioned Caucasians inherently build better societies than their swarthy cousins do, but this level of correlation can’t be entirely coincidental.

    Is there any evidence that specifically *disproves* this theory of “Nordic supremacy” (in the sense of creating a higher standard of living for themselves in the modern world than any other group)?

    Or is racial phenotype irrelevant compared to cultural, religious or other factors in explaining the relative success of the Anglo-Germanics and similar Nordic peoples?

  190. @jeppo

    “Racial” phenotype is irrelevant in these cases. From ca. 1300. to 1600. “Nordistan” (Scandinavia even more) lagged behind Mediterranean countries like Italy or Spain. Compared to Italy’s achievement during 300-400 years, Scandinavians were hardly better than Bantus. Then, Mediterranean power sizzled & a few Atlantic countries got the upper hand. But, this a late development, not longer than 300 years. For most of European history, from the advent of Minoians to the 17th C, Nordics had been something like white Bantus.

    • Replies: @Gates of Vienna
  191. Rurik says:
    @Anon

    Where Fred and I presumably agree is in that one may be an ardent admirer of the accomplishments of a certain civilisation, or of a certain race, without wanting its members in your country in large numbers.

    but this is the crux of the whole matter

    this is the issue that is tearing the world apart with hatred and rage

    there are battles being fought on the ground in Germany with German nationals being called “Nazis” for opposing massive, ethnic and cultural invasions of their countries- obviously intended to de-Germanize Germany. If you don’t embrace millions upon millions of Africans and Middle Easterners invading your nation and transforming it into something unrecognizable and even hostile to ethnic Germans, then you must be a “Nazi”.

    You see how that works?

    And it’s the same thing here in the states. If we don’t embrace tens or hundreds of millions of Third World people replacing the “Northern European” stock- that I guess are nothing but privileged, worthless losers who only have what they have because of slavery and oppression of brown people, yada, yada.. If you have an issue with this massive transformation of America into a place where your white children will be hated and scorned and treated as second-class citizens, (as they already are), then it can only be because you’re a “racist”, who goose-steps around in his underwear shouting ‘Zieg Hiel’ and hates all non-white people.

    And I’m not making any of that up. It really is the paradigm today. Either you demand that Germany stop being German, like this politician

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eAMauZ2JIA

    or you’re a de-facto- Nazi

    either you advocate for unlimited immigration of all non-whites (and only non-whites) or you are a “racist”. Either you want your children to be ordered to the back of every line for jobs or promotions or university slots, or = you hate all minorities.

    There’s no middle ground. We can’t just say we like Mexicans or Cubans but don’t want them to all come here. That is hate talk and it makes you a ‘white supremacist’ and a ‘racist’. You see?

    and the entire Western world is roiling from all of this.

    and do you know why?

    I’ll share something with you. The reason all white nations and homelands are being inundated with non-whites is because there are some extremely racist people who are absolutely convinced that Northern European genes are by far the best that there are. And that fact drives them absolutely insane with apoplectic hatred.

    Men like George Soros.

    As far as he’s concerned, nothing, and I mean nothing matters in their world other than demographics and tribal identities. He’s like that other Jew Benjamin Disraeli –

    “No one may be indifferent to the racial principle, the racial question. It is the key to world history. History is often confusing because it is written by people who did not understand the racial question and the aspects relevant to it… Race is everything, and every race that does not keep its blood from being mixed will perish. . . Language and religion do not determine a race–blood determines it.”

    ~ British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli

    that is what they obsess about with their every breath. Race, destiny, blood, tribe, and destroying the ones who resist their domination.

    and that is why they are determined with every fiber of their being to see Germany destroyed for all eternity. And the white, Northern European character of North America.

    Because they see that character as a threat, and as a reminder that they themselves are not all that divine. And they intend to see that character and those blood traits made to disappear from the pages of history.

    There was a time when Spain was also thus threatened, and suffered under a form of occupation and degradation and misery for hundreds of years. But at least the occupiers were satisfied being the only invaders to inhabit and impose themselves upon their Spanish victims. Not so the PTB today. Their patience is not so generous. And they demand that they be witness to the destruction of all things Northern European in their lifetimes, and see the stories of rapes and brawls in the streets. It gives them such enormous, ebullient joy to read of German women being raped, and Austrian boys of ten years being raped, (and his rapist acquitted) that they’re willing to go all out with this one. This is the big historic moment when they’re planning on putting a stake through the very heart of the Western man and his hated (because it’s sublime) civilization for all eternity.

    It’s like a demographic 9/11. They’re all in on this one. The want to see that demographic fait accompli, when there will be no turning back, and whitey will finally, at long last – be doomed.

    It will be like Moorish Spain without The Reconquista. Not a blond in sight, if that had been the case. And certainly no men like Franco or Salazar.

    And that is what they want and by God they mean to get it. They have Merkel in Berlin and hope to have Hillary in the White House. They’re soo close to their dream they can taste it. And if Trump gets in there, it could all fall apart. They’ll be forced to live with the fact that the people they hate with a cold and otherworldly passion, “Northern Europeans”, just might persevere for a few generations more, unmolested and their children un-raped.

    The horrors of such a world are almost too much for them. I almost pity George Soros with all he’s doing and has done, to have to live with a Germany where the ten year olds are not being systematically raped in the streets and bathhouses, it’s cruel I tell ya. Cruel!

    So yea, in the highly-charged political atmosphere like we’re in today, on the brink of a momentous decision vis-a-vis the very existence of the future of Western Civilization and its people, (and whether or not the children of the West are to be rape amusements for all the first-class citizen new-comers),

    here’s a sampling of just a few of the charming ‘Latins’ Fred is on about..

    http://ufpnews.com/2015/illegal-aliens-committed-500-child-sexual-assaults-north-carolina-january/

    more

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/25/illegal-alien-arrested-for-child-rape-in-north-carolina/

    here’s one for the month of October

    “Over 350 NC child rapes by illegal aliens”

    here’s one for August

    418 child rapes in North Carolina by illegal aliens in August

    http://ncrenegade.com/editorial/418-child-rapes-in-north-carolina-by-illegal-aliens-in-august/

    and those numbers are for just one month in one state, and only the very few that actually get reported.

    but these are ‘hush crimes’ when it comes to our msm, who clearly want more of this kind of thing to happen, and when it does, then you can be sure they’ll first try to hush it up, and then deny it, and they make apologies for it, and then blame the victim, and then when all else fails, and he’s caught and confesses, like the immigrant rapist did recently in Austria, well then they’ll just have their courts acquit the guy with apologies and explain that is was all nothing but a cultural misunderstanding.

    So that’s where we’re at. They hate us (Northern Europeans) so much they don’t just want to see us overrun and replaced, they want to see us humiliated and scourged and even see our children raped like animals on the streets.

    What they want, in a word, is to turn us all into Palestinians. That is how they like it, and that is what their aiming for. And they will not, ever relent until that happens.

    I’d simply rather see them stew in their bile and scheme for the death of the West to mollify their anger, rather than assist them on their goals.

    • Replies: @KenH
    , @Anon
  192. Sean says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Because Mesolithic Europeans were dark skinned the appearance of north Europeans which s now known to be nothing to do with them living in a northern latitude. the apearance of northern euaropeans stems from the in the early Bronze age, when the Yamnaya masscred the entire male and moist of the female population of northern Europe) . There is no explanation other than sexual selection. If you don’t like it, tough shit !

  193. @vcragain

    Every negation on “white supremacy” is based on “non-white” supremacy.

  194. KenH says:

    Here is an article published by Time Magazine in 2000 chronicling the impressive achievements of the Nordic Vikings. Time has never been known as a bastion of Nordicism and Nordic supremacy so it can be deemed an impartial source. I read this many years ago and don’t recall anywhere that Vikings learned everything from pygmies, the southernmost and darkest skinned Europeans, Fred’s beloved Mesoamericans or Muslim demigods.

    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,44020,00.html

    By no means is this the final word, but the facts speak for themselves.

  195. Mokiki says:
    @Rurik

    Fermi was a Jew.

    • Replies: @Rich
  196. KenH says:
    @Rurik

    But, but, but, Fred says Mesoamericans achieved great things in 1125 AD, so we should grant entry rights to every single Mexican.

    And you mean (((George Soros))) the one Breitbart idiots consider a Nazi. Whites are facing an endless night of persecution, rape, murder, degradation and eventual genocide. Jews have longed to destroy Germany and the German people since before WWII. The current mass migration of Africans and Middle East Muslims into Europe’s heartland is just the Morgenthau plan by another name and other means.

    Certain Jews and their black, brown and self hating, amoral white underlings are making damn sure there will be absolutely no safe havens or redoubts for whites anywhere which is why illegals and refugees are being strategically dumped onto the whitest locales and whites states.

  197. Malla says:

    Northern Europeans were already more advanced than everybody from the late medieval period. Not just 200 years back .

    The world’s tallest building for 3 centuries, the first one ever to be taller than the pyramids of Egypt was built in England in 1311, the Lincoln Cathedral, it was not in India, not in Arabia, not in Italy but England.

    How can people who built buildings like this be called backward?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Cathedral

    It is obvious that because limitations put due to climate. Farming was possible for only half the year, England could not become more richer. If the English would have been placed in India, they would have built an even greater civilization than the Indians as they had greater IQ.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitellius
    Emperor of Rome, looks like a Victorian English gentleman. If he would have somehow found himself in Victorian England, he would have looked like an Englishman, nobody would bat an eyelid. Put him in Arabia or India he would have looked out of place

    Lets see what the great Leonardo looked like
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci
    He was blond, blond as a Swedish hippy.

    Actually nearly all the emperors of Rome had blond hair
    http://www.theapricity.com/earlson/history/emperors.htm
    Hadrian was the only dark haired emperor!!!!! All beside him had blond or red hair!

    GREAT Egyptian Pharaoh Ramses II had natural red hair
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II#Mummy
    Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II’s hair proved that the king’s hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[68] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II’s father, Seti I, means “follower of Seth.”[69]

    Plutarch wrote that ancient Egyptians followers of God Seth had red hair like Lord Seth himself
    A pharaoh named Seti (literally, “the man of Seth”) came to the throne and started a long period of Egypt’s strongest empire. Most of his sons and successors were named Ramses, after his own father, who was the first of the 11 different Ramses kings. There were other kings, too, including another Seti and a Sethnakht (“Seth is strong.”) They came from the Delta town of Avaris, where their family had been priests of Seth for centuries. Some of them, including the most famous one, Seti’s son Ramses II, even had Seth’s red hair.

    Blond and Red haired mummies buried separately from each other found in Egypt
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2877855/Cemetery-one-MILLION-mummies-unearthed-Egypt-1-500-year-old-desert-necropolis-largest-found.html

    They have also discovered that the mummies appear to be clustered together by hair colour, with those with blond hair in one area and all of those with red hair in another.

    Augustus Ceaser, the first Emperor of Roman Empire was blond
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus#Physical_appearance_and_official_images
    His biographer Suetonius, writing about a century after Augustus’ death, described his appearance as: “… unusually handsome and exceedingly graceful at all periods of his life, though he cared nothing for personal adornment. He was so far from being particular about the dressing of his hair, that he would have several barbers working in a hurry at the same time, and as for his beard he now had it clipped and now shaved, while at the very same time he would either be reading or writing something … He had clear, bright eyes … His teeth were wide apart, small, and ill-kept; his hair was slightly curly and inclining to golden; his eyebrows met. His ears were of moderate size, and his nose projected a little at the top and then bent ever so slightly inward. His complexion was between dark and fair. He was short of stature (although Julius Marathus, his freedman and keeper of his records, says that he was five feet and nine inches, more or less 1.75 meter, in height), but this was concealed by the fine proportion and symmetry of his figure, and was noticeable only by comparison with some taller person standing beside him.

    Plutarch on Alexander the Great’s Appearance

    Plutarch’s Life of Alexander (Section 4)
    “4 The outward appearance of Alexander is best represented by the statues of him which Lysippus made, and it was by this artist alone that Alexander himself thought it fit that he should be modelled. 2 For those peculiarities which many of his successors and friends afterwards tried to imitate, namely, the poise of the neck, which was bent slightly to the left, and the melting glance of his eyes, this artist has accurately observed. 3 Apelles, however, in painting him as wielder of the thunder-bolt, did not reproduce his complexion, but made it too dark and swarthy. Whereas he was of a fair colour, as they say, and his fairness passed into ruddiness on his breast particularly, and in his face. 4 Moreover, that a very pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh, so that his garments were filled with it, this we have read in the Memoirs of Aristoxenus.

    Pseudo Callisthenes, Plutarch all of them describe Alexander the Great as Blond. His statue found in Turkey looks like a typical youth from England.

    Here is the truth about Alexander the Great
    http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/alexanderarticles/ss/031211-What-Color-Was-Alexander-The-Greats-Hair.htm

    Book XII Chap. XIV.
    Of persons excellent in Beauty.
    “They say that the most amiable and beautiful amongst the Greeks was Alcibiades; amongst the Romans, Scipio. It is reported also that Demetrius Poliorcetes contended in Beauty. They affirm likewise that Alexander Son of Philip was of a neglectful handsomness: For his Hair curled naturally, and was yellow; yet they say there was something stern in his countenance.

    Pseudo-Callisthenes labels Alexander’s hair “lion-colored,” or as we might say, “tawny.”

    Pseudo Callisthenes 1.13.3 translation
    “For he had the hair of a lion and one eye was blue; the right one was heavy lidded and black, and the left one was blue; and his teeth were sharp as fangs, and he looked upon a defensive attack the same as a lion would.”

    Plutarch writes that Alexander was fair, but doesn’t say he had red hair.
    Plutarch’s Life of Alexander (Section 4)
    “4 The outward appearance of Alexander is best represented by the statues of him which Lysippus made, and it was by this artist alone that Alexander himself thought it fit that he should be modelled. 2 For those peculiarities which many of his successors and friends afterwards tried to imitate, namely, the poise of the neck, which was bent slightly to the left, and the melting glance of his eyes, this artist has accurately observed. 3 Apelles, however, in painting him as wielder of the thunder-bolt, did not reproduce his complexion, but made it too dark and swarthy. Whereas he was of a fair colour, as they say, and his fairness passed into ruddiness on his breast particularly, and in his face. 4 Moreover, that a very pleasant odour exhaled from his skin and that there was a fragrance about his mouth and all his flesh, so that his garments were filled with it, this we have read in the Memoirs of Aristoxenus.
    So it appears Alexander was a blond, rather than a ginger. However, lion-colored might not really be tawny, but a strawberry blond or red-colored mane — lion hair that is generally darker than the rest of the lion.

    In the work of Homer, Menelaus the king of the Spartans is, together with other Achaean leaders, portrayed as blond.[61] Although dark hair colours were predominant in the works of Homer, there is only one case of a dark hero, and that is when the blond Odysseus is transformed by Athena and his beard becomes blue-black. Other blond characters in Homer are Peleus, Achilles, Meleager, Agamede, and Rhadamanthys.[61] According to Francis Owens,[62] Roman literary records describe a large number of well-known Roman historical personalities as blond. In addition, 250 individuals are recorded to have had the name Flavius, meaning blond, and there are various people named Rufus and Rutilius, meaning red haired and reddish-haired, respectively. The following Roman gods are said to have had blond hair: Amor, Apollo, Aurora, Bacchus, Ceres, Diana, Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Minerva and Venus.[62] An emperor, Nero, descended from an aristocratic family, is by the historian Suetonius described as: “… his hair light blond,… his eyes blue…”[63] Augustus, founder of the Roman Empire, is by Suetonius described as having hair that was … slightly curly and inclining to golden.[64]

    Alexander: Invincible King of Macedonia describes Alexander in the following way:

    “He was below average height and of medium build, though tough and well muscled with a legendary iron constitution. His complexion was ruddy, and when exercised he face and chest would take a high colour. His hair is variously described as blond or tawny. It was thick, and he wore it swept back and to the sides to resemble, as many said, a lion’s mane. His eyes were said to be of different colours, one brown and the other gray or green. That alone would have arrested those who met him, but in the ancient world it was a magical sign of divine favor as well. What was truly magical was the look of the eyes. Contemporaries said they had a melting charm.”

    According to one historian there was something in his appearance that aroused fear.

    Besides what Northern Europeans created in last 200 years triumphs everything created in the last 5000 years. It takes more brains to invent a computer than to invent/discover the zero.

  198. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Hi again. On the other hand, there is no evidence at all that Romans and Romanians/Vlach do not share common origins somewhere outside the Italian peninsula. In fact, there doesn’t seem to be any hard evidence on the origin of the Italic peoples or the Romans in particular, unless you consider the Aeneid hard evidence. So it is quite possible that Italian predecessors come from, or are closely associated with, the ancient Balkan peoples, especially considering the possible routes that IE could have taken into Europe. If there were cultural or racial similarities between the Romans and the pre-Romanians it would also go a long way to explaining how they held on to their identity through all the years of Slavic and Hungarian and other rule and essentially being cut off from the rest of the Romance world.

    I may have seemed overly strident or dismissive above, which was of course not my intention. However, I don’t think that, whether Sanskrit/Iranic/other exotic influences on Romanian are significant or not, they go much toward showing the “Romanitas” of the ancient Romanians.

  199. Malla says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/8662850/Northerners-brains-are-bigger-scientists-find.html

    A study of populations across both hemispheres has shown people from countries further from the equator have more grey matter and larger eyes than those from sunnier parts.
    This is because living in low light conditions means the eyes and brain need to work harder in order to process images to a good level of detail, or “high resolution”.
    Researchers said the findings, published in the Royal Society’s Biology Letters journal, could theoretically even apply to different communities within a particular country, meaning people in the north of Britain might have larger brains than those in the south.
    Northerly populations have evolved to cope with dull, cloudy skies and short periods of daylight since migrating to Europe and northern Asia as many as 40,000 years ago.

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @Santoculto
  200. @Art

    Who were the Christian thinkers who in your opinion exhibited the “hopeful intellectual idealism” that led to “scientific truth and social freedom”?.

    Why did Christians countenance slavery for nearly 1900 years until those at the leading edge of sceptical secular modernity got rid of it over a period of about 100 years?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Art
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  201. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Thanks, I’ve never been to the Arab world myself, but friends and family who have been to Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, etc. gave me poor impression of sanitation, infrastructure, etc. though they have made progress in some areas like healthcare. It’s almost incomprehensible to us, but like you said, they aren’t big on formal penal codes, some don’t even bother having the pretense of one.

    • Replies: @Talha
  202. @Bardon Kaldian

    For most of European history, from the advent of Minoians to the 17th C, Nordics had been something like white Bantus.
    One of the funniest things I’ve read here. “White Bantus.”
    Nordics as white Bantus. Why Bantus? Not American Indians with whom they actually share some cultural traits because Nordics actually went to North America? Because it’s more exciting to make the whitest people black than to compare them with, oh, native Americans, which makes some anthropological sense in the way of comparison.

    Maritime skills among northern Europeans of the era referred to, were well developed, as was ship building. This alone makes them extremely un-“Bantu.” They had also had a written language. The Russ (from Scandinavia) had settlements pretty well organized all along the Volga River. While comparing blond Nordics to “Bantus” seems to excite certain types — I’ve known one who tried it persistently on one blog — it makes little sense. The climate and environment were too drastically different to invite comparison. We’d really have to see how the black “Bantus” did in the far north on their own, without the welfare benefits they currently enjoy, to see how they would compare with “Nordics.” Would they develop skis, ship building, etc. From what there is to see of several centuries of “Bantus” and “Nordics” thrown together, my bet is on the Nordics doing in well in Africa over the Bantus doing well, on their own, in Sweden.

  203. Sean says:
    @jacques sheete

    Blacks Africans have polygyny, whereby multiple women choose one man, with the corollary that relative to other mating systems many men don’t get even a single woman to pick them. The sex that is being chosen is the one under selection.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/17/satoshi-kanazawa-black-women-less-attractive_n_863327.html Black women are still less physically attractive than nonblack women net of BMI and intelligence. Net of intelligence, black men are significantly more physically attractive than nonblack men.
    […]
    The only thing I can think of that might potentially explain the lower average level of physical attractiveness among black women is testosterone. Africans on average have higher levels of testosterone than other races, and testosterone, being an androgen (male hormone), affects the physical attractiveness of men and women differently. Men with higher levels of testosterone have more masculine features and are therefore more physically attractive. In contrast, women with higher levels of testosterone also have more masculine features and are therefore less physically attractive. The race difference in the level of testosterone can therefore potentially explain why black women are less physically attractive than women of other races, while (net of intelligence) black men are more physically attractive than men of other races.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @OilcanFloyd
  204. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Do you suppose the young Norwegian chess prodigy and grandmaster Magnus Carlsen is sort of a throwback to the Yamnaya conquerors in appearance?

    https://www.google.com/search?q=magnus+carlsen&biw=1341&bih=593&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_gqjsiZXQAhVGy1QKHT_dCzIQ_AUICCgD

    • Replies: @Sean
  205. Sean says:
    @Malla

    In a 24 hour period there is as much UV hitting Scandinavia in the summer as hits sea level equatorial Africa. The days are longer and the atmosphere is thinner inn the north.

  206. @Sean

    Massacres have been greatly exaggerated in history. The amount of energy, physical and mental, to massacre whole populations, was almost never worth the trouble. So I doubt this newly minted tribe, Yanmaya (I still have to stop thinking of the Amazonian Yanamano) was that successful at such near total decimiation. And sexual selection never made much sense. Almost everybody breeds; marriages were arranged. Other things than looks were of prime importance when it came to survival. They didn’t have porn in those days, much less online porn, or pop ups advising us on the traits of the most sexually desirable as if they were of crucial significance.

    • Replies: @Sean
  207. @Malla

    This is because living in low light conditions means the eyes and brain need to work harder in order to process images to a good level of detail, or “high resolution”.

    Really**

    I thought, this condition may helped to select for bigger brains and subsequent/correlated mutations and not ”low light conditions caused this necessity and so brain increase their size ‘to adapt’ ”. Sound ”environmentally lamarckian”.

  208. @Sean

    Seems africans have highest free testosterone*on avg…

  209. Rich says:
    @KenH

    I’m unaware of any legitimate historians stating that the founders of Rome were blonde haired, blue eyed Germans. It’s possible, I suppose, I’ve never seen any evidence of it. I don’t think the Nazis even went that way, their argument was that the modern Italian was actually a Lombard. What we do know about the early Romans is that they spoke the same language as the surrounding tribes, that they were involved in constant squabbles with their neighbors and eventually triumphed. From written records it is stated that they were short and dark haired, although the occasional red-head does appear, as those rascals do throughout the world.
    The supposition that the early Romans were German has no concrete evidence, the Romans themselves claimed to be descended, on their male side, from Trojans escaping the Greeks. But I guess it doesn’t really matter if you want to believe they were Germans, it’s okay with me.
    As an aside, though, I did once have an argument with a Black guy I knew, who told me the early Romans were black Africans, so that’s the company you’re with.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @KenH
  210. Rich says:
    @Mokiki

    Fermi was a Roman Catholic. His wife was Jewish.

  211. @Sean

    HuffingtonPost is a world of its own. I don’t have anything against black people for being black, but have these people actually been around blacks? Black men are far more likely to be obese and nonathletic, and the same goes for black women. As far as masculine features, that makes no sense. Black men and black women both have negroid features. I think most women would prefer Brad Pitt to Mike Tyson, just like most men prefer non-black women.

  212. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    William Wilberforce was hardly at the edge of skeptical secular modernity.
    RSDB

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  213. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Who were the Christian thinkers who in your opinion exhibited the “hopeful intellectual idealism” that led to “scientific truth and social freedom”?.

    How about Newton and his scientific flow stream, how about Lock and his philosophical flow stream, how about all the early Christian universities in Europe? All those people were emmeshed in the intellectualism of Christian philosophy, hope, and idealism.

    Why did Christians countenance slavery for nearly 1900 years until those at the leading edge of sceptical secular modernity got rid of it over a period of about 100 years?

    The past dies hard. I do not think that slavery played an important part of Europe’s internal economy for 1900 years.

    Clearly intellectual Christianity has not conquered primordial biological tribalism. Let us hope.

  214. Marcus says:
    @jacques sheete

    Not sure what you mean by “my pals,” I don’t like Jews/Israel any more than I do Arabs, if I had my druthers I would end all sweetheart deals with Israel and sever diplomatic relations with them until they end their espionage program in the US. However, I’m honest enough to not blame Arab failure on Zionist conspiracies, and if you really cared about the Arabs you would feel the same way, since blaming outsiders enables them to rationalize it. Yes, read the accounts of Henry Austen Layard or any other pre-modern traveler in the region, it existed in a kind of fossil state before Napoleon’s conquest of Egypt and Muhammad Ali’s subsequent arrival there triggered the Nahda. If not for the European discovery of oil the Arab would be on about the same level as sub-Saharan Africa.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  215. @Anon

    Fair enough. As I had WW in mind I should have added “in terms of chronology and maybe Zeitgeist”).

    And what does your “RSDB” stand for or signify? (SVP)

    • Replies: @Anon
  216. Malla says:
    @Rich

    Romans being descendants of Northern Europa was common knowledge among some medieval scholars. For example the Persian scholar Al Beruni , who is regarded as one of the greatest scholars of the medieval Islamic era and was well versed in physics, mathematics, astronomy, and natural sciences, and also distinguished himself as a historian, chronologist and linguist, wrote a famous book on India.

    https://archive.org/stream/alberunisindiaac01biru/alberunisindiaac01biru_djvu.txt
    In chapter XI,

    “The followers of the Thora fix the beginning of idolatry in the days of Serugh, the great-grandfather of Abraham. The Romans have, regarding this question, story of the following tradition: — Romulus and Romaniis (!), aiXRemus. the two brothers from the country of the Franks, on having ascended the throne, built the city of Rome.
    Then Romulus killed his brother, and the consequence was a long succession of intestine troubles and wars. Finally, Romulus humiliated himself, and then he dreamt that there would only be peace on condition that he placed his brother on the throne. Now he got a golden image made of him, placed it at his side, and henceforward he used to say, ” We (not /) have ordered
    thus and thus,” which since has become the general use of kings. Thereupon the troubles subsided. He founded a feast and a play to amuse and to gain over those who bore him ill-will on account of the murder of his brother.”

    The Frank word was used to describe both Germans and French situated in Northern Europe.

    • Replies: @Talha
  217. KenH says:
    @Rich

    I see, “legitimate” meaning any historian who confirms your preconceived notions of Roman history. You totally overlook the racial migrations into the Italian peninsula from central and northern Europe prior to the founding of Rome not unlike the waves of Northern invaders just prior to and during Rome’s fall.

    …..the Romans themselves claimed to be descended, on their male side, from Trojans escaping the Greeks.

    No, that myth was promulgated by Greek writers. The Romans believed Rome was founded by Romulus and Remus who were borne of a she-wolf.

    Physical anthropologist Carleton Coon studied the patrician class (ruling and upper class) of early Rome and these were his conclusions in The Races of Europe:

    “Their facial type is not native to the Mediterranean basin, but is more at home in the north…….the movements from the north introduced Nordics of two varieties; the classic Hallstatt type, and the Keltic Iron Age type which was later to form the basic racial element among the Roman patricians.” [Coon (1939) 194; 554.]

    Of course, this might be too complex for a simple mind such as yours.

    As an aside, though, I did once have an argument with a Black guy I knew, who told me the early Romans were black Africans, so that’s the company you’re with.

    It actually sounds like you and your black buddy are two peas in a pod. He believing that Romans were black, without any evidence, and you believing that from around 753 BC until the fall of Rome that all Romans, save one or two token red heads, resembled Napoleon Bonaparte in height and physical appearance based on one book and dubious “written records”.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Rich
  218. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @KenH

    You call Virgil a Greek writer?

    • Replies: @KenH
  219. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    My name. I also go by R (=Raymond) Bremner.

  220. Malla says:
    @Rurik

    Whites, especially the Northern Whites have to be kept down with guilt because they give us non Whites deep inferiority complex feelings. From physical appearance to intellectual superiority, martial superiority, moral superiority of White people especially Northern Euros (both Eastern and Western). All this gives us brown blacks (including Jews) a deep inferiority complex. But Whites have weaknesses too, a weakness towards guilt, towards fairness, towards being objective in outlook unlike us clannish brown/blacks. Hate YT is the greatest mental disease we brown-blacks have and we suffer the consequences of this disease as much as you. Just ask the Zimbabweans under Mugabe’s wise rule. East Asian yellows are not prone to this disease like brown blacks even if they are Mongloids and many of the browns like Indian subcons and Arabs/Middle Easterners are semi Caucasians themselves.

    Some brown Caucasians are now objectively looking at things though and speaking the truth as it is

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntosk72rQOw

  221. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    Oh, I see. Reading your comment (several layers of nesting up) again, I note you actually state most of the points I make, anyway. I assume I’m reading you correctly in that you are essentially calling for all nationalists/anti-immigrationists/etc. to close ranks in the face of the increasing and so far ever-victorious threat; and that wasting ink or its digital analogue criticizing each other, rather than doing something to face the common threat, is counterproductive (a word supposedly calqued from the Spanish, incidentally). Especially attacking Trump is counterproductive because if he loses, harm perhaps irreparable will be done under Clinton (or Kaine, in the unlikely event Hillary’s various criminal activities get her formally indicted). I agree with this, more or less.

    Fred doesn’t. He sees himself, I imagine, as a reporter rather than an activist, and does not believe that he can personally do the ‘ocracy any harm. Plus, he seems to keep in fairly close touch with vdare and Amren and such, to the extent that this probably forms a fair part of his reading. So when he reads something egregiously silly, especially if he considers it an insult to his Mexican friends and family, he writes a satire piece. Plus Fred, being a self-styled curmudgeon, likes to set people off- and boy, what an easy mark this topic is!

    In short, no, I don’t think Fred is being politically wise here. I don’t think, either, that he gives a d-n; this isn’t a political piece.

    And yes, the MSM and its brainwashed legions equate common sense with racism (which makes it evil!evil!evil!) and vice versa. But this (Unz.com) is one of the few places they don’t show up.

  222. Rich says:
    @KenH

    Well, even though you insulted me, I read over your citation and Coons makes a brief statement of his belief that the Roman patricians were of the “Hallstett type and the Keltic Iron age type” but I can’t find any references to this and apparently there is a lot of disagreement about his reliance on Ripley and poor statistical reference in his book “Races of Europe.” I’m not sure how he concludes that the founders of Rome were a different ethnicity than the surrounding Latins, it seems more like the wishful thinking of a German supremacist, but like I said earlier, if it helps you sleep better, believe it. Your faith in that origin myth is as valid as any other religious origin myth.

    • Replies: @KenH
  223. @RaceRealist88

    Yep. Its called being born on third base and thinking you hit a triple.Nordics stole all knowledge from the Black Man! Give it BACK!

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  224. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Yer a salty bastid for one so elevated in the hierarchy. I’m friendly with a Command Master Chief here locally. He’s refined and smooth! What happened to you?

    For these pages, I prefer the saltier types, myself. Here’s hoping you got out prior to gender-“integration” to the seagoing forces that rendered many elements non-seagoing. I understand it’s rough out there in the fleet.

  225. Talha says:
    @Malla

    Biruni (ra) reference!!!

    • Replies: @Malla
  226. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Hey Marcus,

    All this is true – they aren’t up there with Europe or the US in this regard. Then again, I used to live in So Cal and there are parts of LA that fit this description – and, from what I’ve read, rural parts of the US. I’ve also been to Eastern Europe – some of those places are also like this. But, like you said, if you need a triple bypass in Cairo or Fez, you’ll be fine. Penal codes do indeed exist, but they are selectively enforced. Unfortunately there is a lot of graft and general corruption.

    As for this statement:

    If not for the European discovery of oil the Arab would be on about the same level as sub-Saharan Africa.

    This is largely true of the Gulf Arabs* – minus some of the major historical trading ports. This is not true of older centers of civilization like Tunis, Alexandria, Damascus, etc. But yes, much of the modernization programs the Ottomans instituted (military or otherwise) used European advisers.

    Peace.

    *We see this the fulfillment of an old prophecy – kind of scary actually.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  227. Marcus says:
    @Talha

    Yeah, Muhammad Ali (an Albanian) did great things for Egypt, sadly for them his successors were weak and deferred to the British. True that Tunisia and Jordan have pretty good reputations among travelers and they aren’t reliant on oil, hopefully the last attack didn’t ruin tourism in the former.

  228. Malla says:
    @Talha

    Sorry, did not understand what you meant.

    • Replies: @Talha
  229. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Marcus

    If not for the European discovery of oil the Arab would be on about the same level as sub-Saharan Africa.

    Hey, what do you know! We already have test cases for your hypothesis! Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, Jordan.
    They’re all way above sub Saharan standards in pretty much everything, and they don’t have any oil!

    Looks like you’re just a retard who is pulling stuff out if his stinky ass, what a shocking surprise!

  230. Talha says:
    @Malla

    Hey Malla,

    No worries. Just giving a shout out to you for mentioning Imam Biruni (ra); he is a medieval hero of mine. A true man of comprehensive religious and secular knowledge – great aptitude and acumen. He’s up there with Imam Fakhr ud-din Razi (ra).

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Malla
  231. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    No, he looks like someone whose sister is good looking. I would presume the original Yamnaya women looked more like a sister of Zlatan Ibrahimović, but that look would have become a lot rarer by the time the Yamnaya reached Norway.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  232. Sean says:

    New book from Fred How the Portuguese Invented The Modern World: why Brazil is a superpower despite its lack of resources.

    • Replies: @Marcus
    , @Santoculto
  233. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    So they would have looked like South Slavs? Ibrahimovic is half-Bosniak and half-Croatian. If they looked like the “Dinaric race”, then that would mean that they would have had long narrow faces and noses, and not looked very different from Nordics except in pigmentation. In other words, they would not have changed much in appearance:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race#History_and_physiognomy

    Carlsen does not have these typical Nordic and Dinaric features. His face is shorter and rounder, with a flatter and broader nose and midface, and narrower eyes.

    • Replies: @Sean
  234. Marcus says:
    @Sean

    The genesis of global maritime commerce owes basically everything to Portugal. Parts of Brazil that are less intermixed with the black and indian populations are fine.

  235. @Wizard of Oz

    Why did Christians countenance slavery for nearly 1900 years

    They abolished slavery amongst fellow Christians earlier.

  236. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    Try and get beyond this turtles all the way down mode of discovering what things are made of. The look of modern north Europeans did not come from a any subrace around then. Denizens of the Dinaric Alps today are much lighter skinned and more gracile but give an idea of what the Yamnaya started as. They ended up looking like Norwegians.

    It came from a rolling wave of men choosing which one from an excess of women got to survive and reproduce. The process started in the Ukraine and ended in Norway. There was no one who looked like classic north Europeans, (like Amanda Seyfreid), in Norway, Ukraine or anywhere in between before the Yamnaya rolled out of their homeland.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  237. Marcus says:
    @Sean

    Do you have a blog? Also I’d like to invite you to http://www.salo-forum.com. European origin studies are frequent topic of discussion there, studies that I’ve seen linked there indicate very high Yamnaya ancestry among Bakshirs, Balts, and some eastern Slavs as well.

  238. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    I think you’d agree that Magnus Carlsen does not have a typical Nordic appearance, aside from light skin and light-ish hair (he has brown eyes I think). This is why I asked if you thought that his facial morphology may perhaps be a throwback to the Yamnaya that invaded.

    You suggested in response that the Yamnaya would have looked like South Slavs or what was once called the “Dinaric race”, which is characterized as having long, narrow faces and noses and being similar to the Nordic appearance in morphology and features except for darker pigmentation. The Nordic appearance has been characterized as being a “bleached Mediterranean” one by physical anthropologists, meaning that if you took a classic Med with olive skin, dark hair and eyes, long and narrow face and features, and “bleached” him as it were and made his skin, eyes, and hair light in coloration, then you’d produce a Nordic appearance.

    So if the Yamnaya looked less like Magnus Carlsen and more like Dinarics and Meds, then that would suggest that the primary change effected by the Yamnaya was lighter coloration.

    • Replies: @Sean
  239. KenH says:
    @anonymous

    Regardless, since the Aeneid was written between 29BC and 19BC while Rome was founded around 753BC it’s clearly a work of fiction regarding who and how Rome was founded. Besides, if there was a Trojan origin/influence then why didn’t they keep the same Trojan Gods instead of renaming all but about one or two?

    • Replies: @anonymous
  240. KenH says:
    @Rich

    Well, even though you insulted me…

    Come again? You’re the one who drew first blood by repeatedly insinuating that I’m a German supremacist for simply pointing out that at least some of the founding Roman stock had fair characteristics then by comparing me to some black guy you pal around with who thinks all great people throughout history were black African.

    As a final word I’ll leave you with a description of Roman patrician and dictator Sulla from Wikipedia:

    Appearance and Character:
    Sulla was red-blond,[34] blue-eyed, and had a dead-white face covered with red marks.[35] Plutarch, the ancient historian, notes that Sulla considered that “his golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance”.[36]

    Not exactly a dead ringer for Napoleon, Al Pacino or the run of mill Latin.

    • Replies: @Rich
    , @Marcus
  241. Rich says:
    @KenH

    I don’t want to continue this argument forever, but your own quote says his “golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance.” That would mean it was a rarity among the Romans, wouldn’t it? It’s possible he inherited that hair color from one of the Gaulish soldiers who served under Brennus and captured Rome in 387BC. There was probably a bit of ethnic mixing going on after the battle.
    Of course that would make Sulla closer to an Irishman than a Prussian.

  242. Marcus says:
    @KenH

    Napoleon and Pacino can’t be held as representative for all Latins. Also, we’ve already established that complexion =\= racial type, though Plutarch is saying his complexion was not the norm (but not unheard of there to this day)http://hartleyfamily.org.uk/lighthaircolour_map.jpg
    This man is Welsh and English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alastair_Cook
    This man is Sicilian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Gio%C3%A8

  243. Hmm… Nice satire and all, good effort, etc. but I’m pretty sure there are still 2 things all HBD basement-virgins agree on, and that’s 1) Japan is not Nordic or white; and 2) those Nipps are damned evolved, with I.Q. up the yin-yang (they make the most bitchen cartoons as well). Technically those might count as “Ice People” but Aryan they ain’t. I was never clear how the shield of genetic excellence extended to Han Chinese and certain dot-Indians but it probably does, they’re the two biggest HBD box offices after all. Indo-Aryan supremacy theory is poised for a big comeback if judging by these parvenu Silicon Valley moguls, last seen contaminating the California high school curriculum with Hindu chauvinism.

  244. @John Jeremiah Smith

    The Sumerians depicted their elite with blue eyes. The Ancient Greeks were Nordic invaders (Dorians). Blue eyes and blond hair were common among the Roman elite (Sulla). The mediterranean countries were reconquered by Nordics in the late Roman period, reinvigorating the region with Nordic genes.

    • Replies: @Patrick Harris
  245. @Colleen Pater

    Everybody knows the Wogs start at Calais.

  246. @Calvin Montgomery

    The highly questionable assumption here is that everybody with fair features shares genetic heritage with a more-or-less coherent “Nordic” sub-race.

  247. @Sean

    Lack of resources??????????????????????

  248. L.K says:

    ‘Nordicists’ trying to claim the ancient Greeks and Romans were a bunch of red-haired ‘nordics’ are as pathetic as the ridiculous ‘Afrocentrists’ trying to claim ancient Egypt for blacks.

    BTW, hair and eye blondism is NOT necessarily indicative of “Nordic” ancestry.

    Since KenH has cherry-picked Coon, let’s take a look at more of what he wrote:

    “Their[Roman] facial type is not native to the Mediterranean basin, but is more at home in the north [i.e. Alpine territory, not Northern Europe]. Nevertheless, the Romans considered the Kelts who invaded Italy tall and blond; hence the blondism of the Romans, including rufosity, must have been in the minority.

    “The universality of some degree of blondism among whites and near whites everywhere makes it unlikely that it was ever confined to a single race or group of races within the White family. … [In Italy] blondism is everywhere correlated with a relatively high [i.e. Alpine-Dinaric] cephalic index.”
    (Coon, 1939)
    * * *

    It is often supposed that blondness is an indication of Nordid ancestry. Taken by itself, it is nothing of the kind. The Dalofalids, for instance, who inhabit Westphalia and the province of Kopparberg in Sweden, are as blond as the most typical Nordids; so are the Osteuropids of north-eastern Europe, who are very unlike Nordids in appearance, and seem to be an offshoot of the Alpinids, adapted to a more northerly habitat by greater body size and reduction in pigmentation of the skin, with consequent paleness of the hair. The suggestion is sometimes made that Osteuropids are Alpinid-Nordid hybrids, but there is no convincing evidence of Nordid ancestry. Fair hair and blue eyes also occur sporadically among the Kabyles of northern Algeria and the Kurds of northern Iraq and the adjacent parts of Turkey and Iran. The original inhabitants of the Canary Islands, the Guanches, were fair-haired and blue-eyed.”
    (Baker, 1974)

    • Replies: @KenH
  249. L.K says:

    Here’s what Coon had to say about the Ancient Greeks, which has been confirmed by modern Genetics;

    It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character…. The Greeks, in short, are a blend of [sub]racial types, of which two are most important: the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricism here is present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete Dinarics. The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the days of Homer.
    […]
    It is my personal reaction to the living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite.
    (Coon, 1939)

    • Replies: @Marcus
  250. Marcus says:
    @L.K

    I agree they weren’t Nordic at all (Nordics hardly existed at that time) but it seems likely they (especially the Dorians) were somewhat different from modern Greeks and the Homeric Greeks.

  251. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    The Yamnaya had a big effects skin lightening gene but a few of the people they met on the way to Norway had a minor effect one or hair and eye lightening ones from hunter gathers that also have some effect on skin, so there probably wasn’t much of a difference in skin colour between the original neolithic Norwegians and the original Yamnaya in their urheimat. Nonetheless after the Yamnaya showed up in northern Europe a full suite of skin lightening genes became essential suddenly. Essential for the women, conquered or not. The conquered men were all killed off.

    I think the original Yamnaya before they lest their homeland would look something like an unusually broad faced Montenegrin, but darker. That the country with the greatest amount of Yamnaya ancestry is Norway is inexplicable if you are trying to explain where that look came from in geographical subrace terms because that look did not come from the Yamnaya and it couldn’t have come from straightforward mixing with the people who the Yamnaya met on the way from Ukraine to Norway.

    So it must have been a process on the Yamnaya genes, something analogous to the Russian fox taming experiment inasmuch as the origin of the genes would not tell you much. Sexual selection for feminine looks would have feminsed 2d:4d, which would have would have meant less broad face and less massive features , in women and men The noses would have been much smaller and straighter.

    In the fox taming experiment they got physiological changes when selecting for behavioral traits characteristics, the reverse process is obviously practicable (and farmers selecting for unusual coats has been suggested to have played a significant part part in domestication). Genius or not, the psychological characteristics of north Europeans stem from sexual selection, not a cold climate.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  252. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Montenegrins are South Slavs and Dinaric. Dinarics, Mediterraneans, and Nordics are characterized in physical anthropology as being generally similar morphologically and different primarily in pigmentation. If you took a Nordic and gave him olive skin, dark hair and eyes, he would look Dinaric or Med, and if you took a Dinaric or a Med and bleached him, he would look Nordic. If the Yamnaya resembled Dinarics, then presumably the primary change they induced was in pigmentation.

    Morphologically, Carlsen does not resemble the typical Nordic, Dinaric, or Med. This fact is what motivated my original question. If the Yamnaya resembled Dinarics, then obviously Carlsen is not a throwback to the Yamnaya in appearance, and either just a random outlier or a throwback to some other element.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
  253. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    From Coon:

    http://www.nordish.org/chapter-iv2.htm

    It can be shown that Sumerians who lived over five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia are almost identical in skull and face form with living Englishmen, and that predynastic Egyptian skulls can be matched both in a seventeenth century London plague pit, and in Neolithic cist-graves in Switzerland. Modern dolichocephalic whites or browns are very similar in head and face measurements and form. The Nordic race in the strict sense is merely a pigment phase of the Mediterranean.

    • Replies: @Sean
  254. Sean says:
    @Gates of Vienna

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2016/01/20/timing-the-wave/#comment-75422
    In places like Germany, the mtDNA haplotypes common in the LBK culture ( like N1) decrease in frequency by a factor of a hundred or so in later pops -which implies almost complete extermination.

    . All over Europe, the dominant y-chromosome haplotypes among the early farmers become rare, found today mainly in mountain refugia and Islands. This happened even in southern Europe, where the degree of autosomal replacement is much lower than in northern Europe..

    The Yamanaya had their own women and the farmer’s women as well. Three girls for every boy. The women routinely got burned alive or tortured to death at their husband’s funeral, and probably sometimes before. So the women had two hurdles to clear: being found desirable, then somehow getting looked after long enough to enjoy reproductive success. It is true that the porn look (heavily tanned) is useless for eliciting care and provisioning, but that is a point in my favour The porn look is what men find desirable, and it is mimicking the north European phenotype (apart from the pale skin) .

  255. @Anonymous

    Norway has long had international trade/contacts and had a real influence from Hanseatic merchants, so there are many non-Nordic Norwegians in Norway. Lapps probably have an influence also.

  256. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    Whether Nordic women tan so they can look like Mediterraneans, or to attract men, is such a mystery.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  257. KenH says:
    @L.K

    Looks like you’ve done some cherry picking of your own. I’ve included what you conveniently left out:

    We know comparatively little about the racial composition of the early Italic people in pre-Roman times. Two crania from Remedello are both those of dolichocephals of moderate size; one of them, which is certainly a male, has a stature of 168cm. Two early Romans were likewise dolichocephals of the same size and proportions as the many Nordic groups north of the Alps; while a third….

    Historically, the Romans should have been a mixture of Villanovan Italic northerners with Etruscans and Neolithic and Bronze age predecessors. The little crania material at hand points entirely in the northern direction, and confirms the relationship between the Kelts and the Italici, insofar as it may be used.

    https://archive.org/details/racesofeurope031695mbp

    Now, if you read my previous posts I never said that the Romans were all blonde or red/reddish haired; only that it occurred with some undetermined frequency in the patrician class and that it was likely the genetic legacy of an Indo-European racial stock related to the Celts/Kelts/Gauls and/or Germans who migrated from North of the Alps. This is basically what Coon is saying with the small sample size although he adds that this phenotype didn’t constitute the majority and I would tend to agree, but neither were they just a tiny, insignificant minority as Rich and seemingly you are arguing especially with Roman names like Flavius (golden or yellow haired) and the recurrence of blonde or fair haired consuls (like Sulla) and emperors (Augustus, Commodus, etc.).

    We’ll really never know since the Romans were very warlike (had to be or they would have perished) and male patricians had a high death rate since they actively took part in all of Rome’s battles (and since they had the money to furnish their own weapons), so this eventually took it’s toll on whatever Nordic or fair haired component existed in the Roman republic and later the empire.

    • Replies: @L.K
  258. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Can you elaborate? I’m not sure what you’re disputing. Are you disputing Coon’s physical anthropology?

    • Replies: @Sean
  259. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @KenH

    Oh, I don’t mean Virgil gives a historical account, and I suspect the Roman story of Trojan origin is about as historical as the British story of Trojan origin. The Trojans were non-Greeks of high prestige, so it made sense to claim descent from them. The fact that they weren’t still around probably helped, too. Nevertheless, since the story seemed to be widely enough accepted it should be treated as a genuine tradition, about on par with other stories of (very) early Rome. The Trojan narrative doesn’t conflict with the Romulus/Remus story, as you seem to think above; Romulus and Remus were born not of a she-wolf (they were suckled of a she-wolf before being adopted by shepherds) but of Rhea Silvia, a member of the royal house of Alba Longa, the city supposedly founded by Aeneas in the Aeneid and in tradition.

    I don’t know who the Trojan gods were and I doubt anyone else does either (you can conjecture they were Hittite if you like, but it doesn’t help much). Since Aeneas married an Italian princess and his men blended in with the local population (again, I’m well aware this is legend, not history), and were surrounded by Italians for hundreds of years before the founding of Rome, which itself was populated by men not exclusively from Alba Longa and by women of the Sabines, it is to be expected that the Roman gods would be largely Italian.

  260. @jeppo

    “Among the 19 post-communist nations of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union listed, a more Nordic phenotype is roughly but definitely correlated with a higher HDI score, from Estonia (ranked #4 on phenotype; #30 on HDI) down to Armenia (#47 on phenotype; #85 on HDI).”

    Just a little note on the language here: none of the post-Soviet / North Eastern European people are “Nordic” (Nordic as in Germanic). They are Baltic and Finnic – predominantly r1a with a strong N admixture / ancestral base. Judging by the phenotype, some of the lightest / tallest people in the world, sure, but not “Nordic” by any racial definition (with the exception of a few tiny pockets here and there). Now, if you use “Nordic” as a cultural trait, then maybe this could apply (as in “a Nordic character” (but then again this can apply to many northern peoples such as Ainu, etc), “Protestant ethic” or things like “Suomi sisu” – Finnic perseverance / spite – all of which can definitely leave a mark on the way of life / living standard).

    HDI is a good metric but it doesn’t fully cover all the aspects of quality of life. For instance, among non-European peoples in the post-Soviet space, the Caucasus people, for instance, have very good longevity, a great lifestyle and I wouldn’t be surprised if their health data is pretty good, too.

  261. ussr andy says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    If he didn’t say “nordic supremacy”, it seems like something he might discuss, whether believing or not.

    “but you have the equipment!”

  262. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    The best looking people in his family are his sisters so his look is not absent traces of sexual selection of women. But Carlson is not a typical Norwegian, and the original Yamnaya in their homeland before their conquest certainly did not look like typical Norwegian or have have good looking sisters. Jack Palance maybe looked most like the original Yannaya of any celebrity, he certainly looked evil.

    Where there had been sexual selection the craniofacial form would have inclined to what men find attractive, so if there had been sexual selection of women in the ice age, as Peter Frost suggests, then there would have been people with the cranio facial form of Nordids around 10,000 years ago without them being necessarly ancestors of Norwegian-like people alive today. Coon could be correct about the similarities between Sumarians and Norwegians, but it it is is wrong to assume that a similar cranio facial form is evidence of descent, it is just evidence of similar process of selection. The DNA shows there is no direct descent so cranio facial similarities must be due to similar force of selection; namely, sexual selection of women.

    The Nordic European look is a look selected by sexual selection of women, but white skin is not sexy, that is why young women trying to attract eligible men take a great deal of trouble to get the appearance of a tanned blonde.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  263. What a bleeping idiot this guy is! Technology is always shared. The question is, what did you *do* with it after you invented/encountered it?

  264. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    I’m not disputing your sexual selection hypothesis as you seem to think. I don’t see why it couldn’t be true. But I wasn’t discussing sexual selection or any other kind of mechanism that may have been involved. I wasn’t concerned with the mechanism of change, but rather what changed and what things were like before and after the change.

    Carlson doesn’t look typically Nordic. I asked if he was a throwback to the Yamnaya to see whether the Yamnaya underwent both craniofacial and pigmentation change. If they did resemble Carlson, then they would have undergone both. If they resembled Dinarics and Meds, then they would have undergone primarily change in pigmentation, with craniofacial form staying generally the same.

    • Replies: @Sean
  265. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    I have said he doesn’t look anything like what the original Yamnaya back in Ukraine in the early neolithic looked like before they invaded Europe, Through sexual selection over generations of expansion, Yamnaya may have been close to his look by the time the Yamnaya reached Norway.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  266. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    If Carlson resembles an intermediate between the appearance of the original Yamnaya and contemporary Nordics, then wouldn’t that suggest that the original Yamnaya did not resemble Dinarics or Meds? Dinarics, Meds, and Nordics are similar in craniofacial morphology and differ primarily in pigmentation. So presumably, a Dinaric or Med looking original Yamnaya population would have changed in terms of pigmentation to produce Nordics, rather than change craniofacially towards Carlson’s appearance and then back to something similar to the original morphology but with lighter pigmentation.

    • Replies: @Sean
  267. Othello says:
    @Rurik

    This is also why white people should stay in Europe and why the rest of the world should nationalize their resources like the Scandinavians do.

  268. @TelfoedJohn

    This process is even mythologised in Scandinavia with the Rigsmal Edda. http://bit.ly/2fF9IsS

    The myth describes a dark-skinned Thrall at the beginning being the son of a farmer peasant, and ends up with a child: “whose hair was blond and who was bleikr (bright white in color)”.
    The journey is up the civilisational and class ladder, getting paler along the way.

    Similar to tales in The Shahnameh —

    Zal, the son of Saam, was born albino. When Saam saw his albino son, he assumed that the child was the spawn of devils, and abandoned the infant on the mountain Alborz.

    The child’s cries were heard by the tender-hearted Simurgh, who lived atop this peak, and she retrieved the child and raised him as her own. Zal was taught much wisdom from the loving Simurgh, who has all knowledge, but the time came when he grew into a man and yearned to rejoin the world of men. Though the Simurgh was terribly saddened, she gave him three golden feathers which he was to burn if he ever needed her assistance.

    Upon returning to his kingdom, Zal fell in love and married the beautiful Rudaba. When it came time for their son to be born, the labor was prolonged and terrible; Zal was certain that his wife would die in labour. Rudabah was near death when Zal decided to summon the Simurgh. The Simurgh appeared and instructed him upon how to perform a cesarean section thus saving Rudabah and the child, who became one of the greatest Persian heroes, Rostam.

  269. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    In my opinion, if the the original Yamnaya in the urheimat could be related to a modern people one would say they were inclined to a robust version of Dinaric type.. Carlson is no intermediate, he has a very good looking sister and I think sexual selection of women is the driving force behind Nordics, with what men look like a side effect. The women are where the action is, remember. The Yamnaya were quite possibly very Nordic looking even before they got to Scandinavia. I think Nordics are basically a subrace formed by male preference, which was strongest in north Europe during the Yamanay conquest. No other part of Europe was as affected by the comquest.

    Coon thought in terms of de-pigmentation at northern latitudes for UVb penetration and vitamin D synthesis because he didn’t know that ancient north European hunter gatherers were very dark, and he didn’t understand how much UV people are exposed to even in the north of Scandinavia. We know better now and the existence of heavily pigmented Mesolithic hunter gathers who had 20,000 year of evolution proves that the UVb theory is wrong. Darwin was of the opinion that races were formed by sexual selection, and gatherered evident that north European women were thought beautiful by men of all races, just as Englishmen in Africa found that their opinion on which negro girls were most attractive was shared with local negro men. Darwin was so ahead of his time that he is is still not appreciated.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  270. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    I don’t think Carlson looks very Nordic in terms of craniofacial morphology, which is why I suggested he may be some sort of “throwback” to an older element or an outlier. I suppose you disagree, which is fine, since there is a degree of subjective perception in this sort of thing. But in that case I guess there’s not much use talking about him any further.

    Coon was first and foremost a physical anthropologist, and his judgments regarding morphology such as Nordics and Meds being basically craniofacially identical and Nordics being a depigmented type of Med were based on empirical analysis and measurement. Whatever speculations he may have had about the possible evolutionary mechanisms are sort of irrelevant. He didn’t think in terms of de-pigmentation because of his preferred mechanism, but rather because in terms of physical anthropology, that’s what Nordics are relative to Meds.

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @OilcanFloyd
  271. @Father O'Hara

    Did I ever say that Nordics stole African technology? No. I said Nordicists are delusional, which they are.

    Nordicists and Afrocentrists, two sides of the same coin. Ideological cousins.

    • Agree: Talha
  272. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    If one was looking for an example of black Africans brought to America, then Louisiana would be the logical place not Hawaii. Carlson does have a similarity to one of the original Yamnaya reconstructions, but not as much as (Ukrainian) Jack Palance did.

    In terms of physical anthropology, one would be entitled to draw the conclusion that chimpanzees and gorillas were more closely related than chimps and modern humans. But this is incorrect. The same selection pressure produces similarities not due to descent.

    Coon was assuming it was weak UV that created selection pressure for white skin , just as he assumed blue eyes are for seeing in low light. But we now know UV is too strong in the north for that to be likely and then it was discovered that North Europeans in the Mesolithic were far, far, darker skinned than any modern Mediterranean and north European farmers in the early neolithic were still of a very dark complexion compared to modern South Europeans . Sexual selection is the only explanation still standing, though some bad jokers insist that something else was behind it.

    The most complete Yamnaya conquest and extermination of native men was in north Europe, thus placing women under intense sexual selection and that is why there is white skin there, and that is why Nordic women exceed Mediterranean women in the ability to awake desire (and via white skin, protective instincts) in men. And Carlson has a very good looking sister.

  273. @Anonymous

    Carlsen may not look like a cartoon Viking, but he wouldn’t look out of place in Norway at all. Ever been there? Lots of non-immigrant Norwegians have brown hair. His features are a little trollish, but they don’t mark him as foreign. If he had blond hair, I imagine there would be no conversation. Carlsen looks a bit like Garrison Keillor, who apparently has no Scandinavian ancestry at all.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  274. @Sean

    http://archhades.blogspot.com/2015/10/myth-of-light-pigmented-nordic-looking.html

    The Yamna had dark skin (relative to today’s Europeans) and dark eyes.

    I understand sexual selection, what about it?

    Climate is also a factor for skin color.

    • Replies: @Sean
  275. @RaceRealist88

    Do you know who invented the wheel?

    I bet you can guess.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  276. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    Actually, when I say he doesn’t look very Nordic, I don’t mean that he doesn’t fall within the general distribution of Norwegian phenotypes, nor am I referring to his pigmentation. In fact it’s his pigmentation, his light to medium brown hair and fair skin, that suggests a northern European background. I’m referring to his craniofacial morphology, which differs from the Nordic type of physical anthropology.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
  277. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Which sister are you talking about? Based on a Google image search, I don’t think most people would regard his sisters as “very good looking”:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=magnus+carlsen+sister&biw=1341&bih=593&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi_ppegt6LQAhVKzIMKHddqAdYQ_AUIBygC

    They look like him or Jeremy Clarkson in drag.

    • Replies: @Sean
  278. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    As I said before, I wasn’t discussing possible evolutionary mechanisms, nor am I talking about descent or relatedness.

    If you accept Coon’s claims about Nordics and Meds being basically craniofacially identical and Nordics being a depigmented type of Med, and if the original Yamnaya resembled some sort of Dinaric or Med in type, then the primary physical change in north Europe by the Yamnaya would have been in pigmentation. Furthermore, there would have been either significant convergent evolution since Nordics and Meds are basically craniofacially identical, or one would have descended from the other and undergone change in pigmentation.

  279. Malla says:

    Actually Southern Europeans have North African genes.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11791.full

    From the link above
    “Focusing on the North African component at k = 6, we found that a migration event from North Africa to Europe would have occurred at least 6–10 generations ago (∼240–300 ya) in Spain, and at least 5–7 generations ago in France and Italy”

    This could be be the reason of a difference between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. Southern Europeans may be a North African-Northern European hybrid population.
    http://phys.org/news/2013-06-southern-europeans-north-african-genes.html

    • Replies: @L.K
  280. Malla says:
    @Talha

    Dude Talha, Imam Biruni was a genius. His book on India was so comprehensive that many Hindus research their own religion of Hinduism by reading his book even though he was a Muslim.

  281. Malla says:
    @Si1ver1ock

    LOL, the same thing can be said about what did the British do for India or what did the Europeans do for Africa or the French in Algeria. Man this goes on and on, centuries after centuries of ungratefulness. Anyways third World people are naturally ungrateful.

    Check out from to 5:15 to 10:08 minutes in the above video

  282. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    You probably think Anita Ekberg looked like a man in drag. Carlson has a sister who is far better looking for a woman that he is for man . That’s typically Nordic: the good looking ones in north Europe are the women.

    It’s telling that Mediterranean men are more appealing to most women than Swedish men are. North European women make a lot of money as models and actresses in south Europe, in fact the world, because when there is choice men go for a certain look, and north Europeans women have it.

    Anyway, you are required to familiarise yourself with the DNA evidence as to the timing of of north European, developing white skin (during the yamnaya conquest) before getting another answer from me.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  283. Sean says:
    @RaceRealist88

    Climate is also a factor for skin color

    No, it was as with Jack Palance and Anita Ekberg

  284. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    I’m familiar with the timing of skin lightening from following your debates with Razib over this matter.

    I’m not sure what exactly your point is. I’m not disputing or arguing against your sexual selection hypothesis. As I’ve said several times now, I’m not talking about the evolutionary mechanisms that may have been involved here in producing the changes.

    You stated several times that Carlson’s sister was “very good looking”. Based on a Google image search, I would disagree with that assertion and I think most men would as well. I would also take issue with your claim that Carlson’s sister is “far better looking for a woman that he is for man”. I don’t think that’s true, but these things are sort of subjective anyway.

    I don’t think Ekberg looks like a man in drag, and I don’t think anyone would agree that Carlson’s sister resembles Ekberg.

    Again, I have no problem with your hypothesis or views. They seem perfectly reasonable and sound to me. I would just like to know your position on Coon’s physical anthropology. Do you disagree with his data on morphology and thus whatever possible inferences that might be drawn from the data? Or do you just disagree with certain possible inferences from the data, such as the notion that there might have been significant convergent evolution?

  285. @Anonymous

    I know you are referring to more than pigmentation, which is why I stated that Carlsen looks a little trollish, but nothing about his facial features would mark him as foreign within Scandinavia.

  286. L.K says:
    @Malla

    The amount of non-european admixture in Southern Euros is tiny and within the European average and it is ridiculous to say that they are a hybrid population.

    Let’s begin with Spain:

    Two subclades of North African Y-chromosome haplogroup E3b and Middle Eastern haplogroup J (labeled E-M81 and J-M267) are considered unrelated to the Neolithic migrations into Europe, making them useful in detecting historical admixture from Berbers and Arabs or earlier Semitic peoples. These markers exist at combined frequencies of 3% in Catalans of Northern Spain and 6.4% in Andalusians of Southern Spain (for a total of between 1.5% and 3.2% admixture), confirming that gene flow from Phoenicians/Carthaginians and Islamic Moors was minimal.
    (Semino et al. 2004)

    Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigational hazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. … Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity.”
    (Comas et al. 2000)

    Now the Greeks:

    “In this autosomal DNA plot of genetic distances derived from 120 allele frequencies, Greeks fall entirely within the cluster containing Caucasoid populations (upper right corner), wedged between Basques and Northern Europeans, and far away from Africans and Asians:”
    (Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza, 1994)

    “In a sample of 366 Greeks from thirteen locations in continental Greece, Crete, Lesvos and Chios, a single African haplogroup A Y-chromosome was found (0.3%). This marks the only instance to date of sub-Saharan DNA being discovered in Greece. In another sample of 42 Greeks, one sequence of the Siberian Tat-C haplogroup turned up. Note that other studies with larger sample populations have failed to detect this paternal marker in the Greek gene pool (e.g. Malaspina et al. 2000; Weale et al. 2001), and that its frequencies are actually much higher in Scandinavian and Slavic populations.
    (Di Giacomo et al. 2003; Helgason et al. 2000)

  287. L.K says:

    As for Italians:

    Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.
    (Plaza et al. 2003; Romano et al. 2003)

    Similar data from the Y-chromosome reveals Italians’ even lower non-Caucasoid paternal admixture. Both studies obtained samples from all over the mainland and islands. No Asian DNA was detected anywhere, but a single sub-Saharan African E(xE3b) sequence was found in the first study’s sample of 416 (0.2%), and six were observed in the second study’s sample of 746 (0.8%). The total is therefore a minuscule 0.6%, which decreases to 0.4% if only Southern Italians are considered and 0% if only Sicilians are considered. Again, these are normal levels of admixture for European populations (e.g. Austrians were found to have 0.8% E(xE3b) by Brion et al. 2004). (Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2004)

    And this:

    An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Italians, Sicilians and Sardinians) and various Middle Eastern/North African populations revealed a “line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon,” which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that “gene flow [across the sea] was more the exception than the rule,” attributing this result to “a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.”
    (Simoni et al. 1999)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  288. L.K says:
    @KenH

    You just don’t know what you are talking about.

    There were patricians who were fair AND there were plebeians who also were fair.
    Pure blondes were in the minority JUST like with today’s Italians.
    Have you ever been to Italy? To Rome? There are plenty of modern romans who have pale skin and light eyes.
    Italian phenotypes;
    1000 musicians from all over Italy play Learn to Fly by Foo Fighters to ask Dave Grohl to come and play in Cesena, Italy.

    Anyway, as another poster wrote in another thread:

    When the Ancient Gauls are described as “…tall of body, with rippling muscles, and white of skin, and their hair is blond (Book V. 28. 1).” Then you know there’s a clear delineation between both tribes.

    In fact, in almost every conflict Romans have with the Northern Tribes, we find descriptors of them being fairer and taller.

    The most laughable thing here though is the complete absence of information on the Etruscans. The Etruscans contribute a majority of what we term “Roman civilization” and well, wait ’til you get a load of them.

  289. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @L.K

    Bullshit.
    First, uniparental haplogroups are horrible ways of judging ancestry.
    Second, there is no invisible genetic barrier between the Middle East and South Europe, and indeed South Europeans are very distinct from North Italians (“very” being relative to for example South Iberians and North Iberians, or South Greeks and North Greeks, or South Germans and North Germans etc)

    Here, a PCA with hundreds of thousands of SNPs, not some archaic STR study
    have fun seeing the glaring contrast

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQb2I1X2t0TDZtMXM/edit

    • Replies: @L.K
  290. Sean says:

    Darwin was scoffed at when he proposed sexual selection. Like a lot of people Coon thought adaptations to climate explained things better. He also thought blonde hair and blue eyes were a side effect of white skin. His views on “depigmentation” are no longer tenable now. Mediterraneans, including women, are by north European standards very hairy, that is due to hormonal balance, and hormones such as testosterone and oxytocin have profound effects on behavior.

    In my opinion Mediterraneans are not nearly so similar to North Europeans in t their skeleton as Coon implied. However the current North European cranio-facial form is similar to late Ice Age North European cranio-facial form, but they share little descent, so the similarities must be due to similar selection pressure.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  291. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    So you disagree with Coon regarding his empirical data, but believe that any similarities could be explained by convergent evolution?

    • Replies: @Sean
  292. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    In the light of DNA studies not available to Coon, I disagree with Coon’s conclusion on the basis of the data that was available to him. Mediterraneans don’t resemble Nordics in craniofacial form as half as much as modern Nordics resemble ice age north Europeans, and yes: I think that convergence due to sexual selection . The art of Mediterranean counties is impressive, but primitive peoples can produce art, and ice age north Europeans produced some that was very, very good indeed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  293. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    Convergence between whom? Nordics and Mediterraneans? Or modern Nordics and ice age northern Europeans?

    Do you believe modern Nordics resemble southern Europeans and other Meds less than ice age northern Europeans?

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your last sentence about art.

    • Replies: @Sean
  294. Sean says:
    @Anonymous

    Yes, modern Nordics and ice age northern European hunter gatherers have a very similar cranio-facial form. What was basically a blend of farmer women and Yamnaya came to resemble the craniofacial form of ice age euro hunter gatherers extremely quickly. And they got fully white skin too.

    Do you believe modern Nordics resemble southern Europeans and other Meds less than ice age northern Europeans?

    Yes, though mainly in craniofacial form. Modern nordics are fully white, which may (or may not) be novel.

    Art was cited as an achievement of Mediterraneans, but some surviving stone age art is every bit as good, and their caves were very cold . Fred seems to have missed a trick with the ethical achievements of Indians of Mesoamerica, whose religion involved ritual torture and slaughter on innocent people. What is called morality was an invention of Kant, not Dante, and the US has taken that kind of thinking further than anyone. Empathy is something that oxytocin has key role in.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  295. geokat62 says:
    @Sean

    What is called morality was an invention of Kant, not Dante…

    What is called morality was an invention of Plato, not Kant…

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  296. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "Kip Russell"] says:
    @geokat62

    What is called morality was an invention of Kant, not Dante…

    What is called morality was an invention of Plato, not Kant…

    What is called “morality” is strictly a cultural component, and differs from culture to culture. No one “invented” it. Morality is a construct common to all human societies.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  297. geokat62 says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    What is called “morality” is strictly a cultural component, and differs from culture to culture. No one “invented” it.

    While this may be true of “morality,” it is not true of “moral reasoning.” The latter was invented by Plato:

    “Plato stood at the beginning of the self-critical process of our reasoning out our moral convictions.” – Rebecca Goldstein, Plato at the Googlplex

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  298. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "Kip Russell"] says:
    @geokat62

    While this may be true of “morality,” it is not true of “moral reasoning.” The latter was invented by Plato:

    No, it was not. And don’t quote Rebecca Goldstein’s fawning bullshit.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  299. @Anon

    As I read it, I thought: “Sounds like Belloc.” But, having never read it before, I didn’t know for sure. I did look it up to check myself, after I guessed, but I’m hoping I’ll still get the bonus points.

    • Replies: @Anon
  300. I’d suggest you take a look at “How the West Won” by Rodney Stark.

    His premise is that technology grows when the makers get to keep the proceeds. And that when Empires, or large government exists, they suck up all the extra proceeds and stifle invention. Thus, Roman actually invented little(being an empire), but the Greeks prior invented quite a bit. Northern Europe(500- present) invented much because it was centralized.

    Sure Chinese invented independently things like steel (about 1000) but when the central government stepped in and took over production, the industry failed. BTW, we can see this in northern Europe with the fact that post WW2, the did have to send coal to Newcastle after the English nationalized the mines and they stopped producing coal in Newcastle.

    Prior to reading this book, I’d heard that the only tech that the Romans had advanced was construction and medicine as it related to combat.

  301. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @AureliusMoner

    You’re pretty good if you know Belloc’s style that well! You deserve those points.

    Have you seen the pictures that go with it? If not, I assure you they are a treat.

  302. geokat62 says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    No, it was not. And don’t quote Rebecca Goldstein’s fawning bullshit.

    Ok, if you say so.

  303. L.K says:
    @Anonymous

    “and indeed South Europeans are very distinct from North Italians”

    Uh? Northern Italians are Southern Euros, you fool, and no, they are not ‘very distinct’ from their Southern neighbors. Of course there are differences, which is to be expected.

    …there’s no reason to expect all Italians to form a tight cluster. Genetic distance is largely a product of geographic distance, and Italy is long and curved, stretching from the Western Alps in the North to the Eastern Mediterranean in the South. So it’s normal that Italians would be spread out in a broad cluster that mimics the shape of the country.

    In other large – for euro standarts – countries, the same can be observed. In Germany, not only there are North-South differences, but also significant East-West ones. So what?

    All of this is ultimately related to the clinal distribution of Mesolithic hunter-gatherer and Neolithic farmer ancestry, which shifts Northern and Eastern Europeans slightly toward Siberia, and Southern and Western Europeans slightly toward the Middle East, and can also have an effect within nations. Indeed, even smaller and less populous Germanic nations have noticeable population structure that follows the same pattern seen in Italy, Germany and Europe as a whole.

  304. J2 says:

    Your article is great, but I think the theory it parodies is partially up-side-down. All animals get more stupid by being tamed, also humans. So, dogs have the smallest brains of dog animals, much smaller than their ancestors, wolfs. Cro magnons (West European Hunter Gatherers) had bigger brains than we now, but they were tamed and got more stupid. So the people starting a civilization, in a place with enough heat and water, as you correctly say, used to be smart, but become less smart, and this is why the center of civilization moved North, as there was no civilization and people were still pretty smart. And finally it even got to Finland. People there, as in the Baltic states, are closest to WEHGs.
    I do not know about these Piffer´s GWAS measurements, but in his papers Finns have a bit more high IQ genes than Europeans living in the Mediterranean. The extreme right believe in Northern European supremacy is stupid, but some theory is needed. One should explain why East Asians are cold adapted, so are Europeans, and why Arctic people come as third in IQ measurements. It could be that they got smart because of cold, or that they stayed smart because there was no civilization for so long and Southern Europeans and Middle Easterners were at least as smart originally. But they were almost the same people. There is a limit to such an explanation if we go to very different people. Australian aboriginates and some others live as they have always lived, there was an earlier exodus from Africa and those people never went North. Here the coldness theory works, the taming theory does not work.

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