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Last week, the world’s most populous nations, India and China, both nuclear armed, clashed in the high Himalayan region of Ladakh.

At least 20 Indian troops died and 12 were reportedly taken prisoner before a cease-fire went into effect. So far, there were no reports of Chinese casualties.

Ladakh is one of the world’s most remote, obscure and inhospitable places, a plateau averaging 4,200 meters altitude (about 14,000 feet) with frigid temperatures, scant oxygen, little rainfall, and howling winds. This bleak moonscape has long been called ‘Little Tibet’ because of its semi-nomadic ethnic Tibetan yak-herders. China has pretty much crushed the life out of Tibet’s ancient culture while India has helped preserve the Tibetan way of life.

China and India’s confrontation in airless Ladakh reminds me of the ‘bon mot’ about Ethiopia and Eritrea’s battle over the barren Ogaden desert region between them: ‘two bald men fighting over a comb.’

I’ve been over much of Ladakh by jeep, foot and even yak, and atop the world’s highest glacier, Siachen, that overlooks Ladakh. India and Pakistan have been fighting over Siachen for decades, making it the highest war in history and another crazy conflict. As a Pakistani officer told me, ‘we hate one another so much we will fight to prevent them from occupying our part of Hell.’

My book ‘War at the Top of the World’ (available through Amazon) is all about the conflict in the Himalayas and Kashmir between India, Pakistan and China.

So why are China and India at daggers drawn over the Galwan River Valley in Ladakh? Both are busy dealing with the coronavirus epidemic. Delhi and Beijing have conducted off and on diplomacy to ease Himalayan border tensions.

The clash in Ladakh was no accident but clearly a planned offensive act by China – and the biggest military operation since the two Asian giants went to war in the Himalayas in 1962, producing a serious defeat for India. China then said the war was a ‘serious message’ to India to restrain its ambitions in the region.

This time, it appears that the Chinese sent another ‘message’ to India. Part of this problem was due to the British Empire which never properly demarcated its Himalayan borders between the British Indian Raj and then independent Tibet. Some borders were never surveyed; others drawn with thick pens, leaving whole regions with unclear borders. But in those days no one cared about the vast emptiness at 14-17,000 feet. That is, until China moved in an occupied Tibet in 1950-1951, putting it on India’s northern border.

Since then, India and China have been uneasy rivals with both sides laying claims to parts of the Himalayas, Karakorams and the great rivers that course down from the Tibetan Plateau, providing water for much of Southeast Asia’s peoples.

ORDER IT NOW

Two recent issues have sparked the latest round of fighting – with threats of a much bigger war between Asia’s two giants. First, India’s new Hindu nationalist government under PM Narendra Modi has made no secret of its growing hostility to both China and its close ally, Pakistan, India’s longtime rival.

Modi’s revoking of Kashmir’s autonomous status and its division into two states has created major new tensions in the region. So have Modi’s plans to fashion a purely Hindu state in India, and China’s growing influence over Burma.

But a more important source of China’s anger has been growing efforts of the Trump administration to build a close military alliance with India to counter-balance China’s increasing military power.

Though seeming counter-intuitive to Trumps’ efforts to secure re-election by getting Beijing to buy more produce from American farmers, the Pentagon is preparing for a future war with China. Trump came close to facing a military coup in recent weeks and is trying to avoid angering the Pentagon and Washington’s active and retired military establishment.

Meanwhile, the fiercely anti-Muslim White House has quietly allowed four million Hindu Indians to emigrate to the United States as a way of countering the growing number of Muslims in our nation. Trump even offered to mediate the intractable Kashmir dispute, a proposal scorned by all sides.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: American Military, China, India, Kashmir 
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  1. DB Cooper says:

    Bunch of nonsense, as expected.

    • Replies: @anonymous1963
  2. AaronInMVD says: • Website

    I am with you on the recent civil unrest in the US having the flavor of a color revolution, but… with this border skirmish I find it quite the jump to clearly label one side the aggressor.

    As we head into this new, Greatest Depression, we ought to look at what the last one lead to. It lead to a number of nationalist distractions from the economic misery that blew up into a world war. The patriotic braying I see coming out of India this week has an almost Argentine quality… “Why won’t people outside accept we are a big, rich, and developed country too?”

    I don’t find it much of a stretch to suspect that the Indian chain of command is open to leaks from the outside. Can India ensure that the Indian Army follows Indian orders or are their officers vulnerable to Five-Eyes temptation and intrigue? Whether at the level of the division, brigade, or even the company level… Can Modi ensure not a single officer will fall for the whiteman’s promises that “Modi, the Queen and Trump all need you to get this fight started for the glory of India and the destruction of China”…. In light of Bollywood’s poor output can an Indian officer be expected to resist the chance to star in a Bond movie style plot?

    We live in a world where most of the US FBI’s terrorism arrests were made through the FBI radicalizing internet loners and they putting the cuffs on after they finally convinced their target to take action.

    Seeing how many Black Lives Gone the media pushed before they George Floyd thing stuck and the push to demonize China… What keeps the same playbook for being used to light the shooting portion of our Third World War?

  3. joe2.5 says:

    “China has pretty much crushed the life out of Tibet’s ancient culture” of feudalism, with its indentured serfdom and untold misery, “while India has helped preserve the” worse than bronze-age “Tibetan way of life” consisting essentially in the ruthless exploitation of millions of serfs, bought and sold with the land they “belonged to” and pitilessly repressed by a priestly caste of executioners on behalf of the Dalai Lama and the 18 reigning families.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  4. Two groups of Asians fighting each other. Not my monkey, not my circus. Let them have at it.

  5. A123 says:

    Neither side has anything to gain. Nukes mean that escalation could have huge downside.

    India has dead troops and is outraged. China is trying to calm the situation. The local forces on both sides are high strung after the skirmish and thus prone to over react.

    If both sides can keep agitated troops apart this is fixable. Rotating in new forces would allow the military leadership to get everyone with a potential grudge away from the opposing side. The land on both sides of the border are mostly useless. A deal to increase physical separation between positions should be straightforward. It will not be called a DMZ, but that type of concept prevents young men from head butting at the fence line.

    PEACE 😇

  6. kauchai says:

    To the author:

    1) ” China has pretty much crushed the life out of Tibet’s ancient culture while India has helped preserve the Tibetan way of life.”

    So, just exactly what aspects of tibetan culture did china crush? You mean ” the cleric master and serf” culture where ordinary tibetans were expected to serve the elite lamas from cradle to their graves (too bad if you were born into a serf family, your entire life is pretty much screwed)? OR the theocratic political culture where only about 200+ high born lama families ruled and dipped their filthy hands into the country’s treasury as if it was their own bank accounts?

    2) How has India preserve the tibetan way of life?

    By offering Dharamsala as a political safe haven for the Dalai Lama so that he and his bunch of thieves can continue to thrive and embarrass china according to the wishes of his CIA bosses?

    • Thanks: showmethereal
  7. @DB Cooper

    In other words, a typical Eric Margolis article.

  8. @Chris Mallory

    Staying out of it makes sense.

    • Replies: @Realist
  9. Meena says:

    “ Meanwhile, the fiercely anti-Muslim White House has quietly allowed four million Hindu Indians to emigrate to the United States as a way of countering the growing number of Muslims in our nation. “

    This nicely fits with the IQ ,life style,and current hostage situation the orange clown, a born bastard has come to brag about.

    • Replies: @ko
  10. gT says:

    China always wants to claim more territory for itself, so India must build more nukes to defend itself. In the past China just claimed some island in some river for itself, it didn’t negotiate with Russia first, just invaded and took the island. Russia bombed the island to smithereens along with the occupying Chinese on it, and then with negotiations Russia gave the island to the Chinese because Russia had no interest in the island. China has no manners, its like a child, everything is “mine”.

    And while China is extremely dependent on Globalization to progress, India is not in the same boat, and Globalization is going down the drain. Also the demographics thanks to the One Child Policy in the past is working against China, India will have more fighting age men available the longer the peace lasts. China has the next 5 years to achieve its ambitions else its opportunity is gone.

    So all India has to do is follow as Russia has done in Donbas, just stalemate matters and wait, time is on India’s side. Everyday that full scale war doesn’t break out is another day for India for fortify its position. Stalemate involves casualties, India has too many people as it is.

    “The two most powerful warriors are patience and time” – Leo Tolstoy

    All Chinese overseas work for China, just so India must leverage its people overseas. While the overseas Chinese are more on a technology acquiring mission, the Indians overseas are more into the money with CEO and IT jobs, so India must get them to send funds for the defense of India and so on.

    • LOL: showmethereal
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Malla
  11. There’s something a bit …hinky going on here. 20 Indian dead …..But (this from the BBC online):

    “Both sides insist no bullet has been fired in four decades, and the Indian army said on Tuesday that “no shots were fired” in this latest skirmish.

    How a clash that did not involve an exchange of fire could prove so lethal is unclear. There are reports that it was fought with rocks and clubs

    Local media outlets reported that the Indian soldiers had been “beaten to death”.”

    Who was it who said the 4th world war would be fought with rocks & sticks ? We seemed to have skipped the nuclear war 3rd W.W phase ….

    • Replies: @anno nimus
  12. Realist says:
    @anonymous1963

    Staying out of it makes sense.

    Therefore that will not happen.

    • Replies: @d dan
  13. Hoekom says:

    What are the Chinese fighting for. You conquer Tibet to protect your water sources and ensure you dont have a hostile force in your backyard. But why this?

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @ko
    , @DB Cooper
    , @gT
  14. DB Cooper says:
    @gT

    Check this out, here are some of the stories of the CEO and the best and brightest talents bullshit artists working in IT jobs in America.

    https://patriotmouse.com/category/h-1b-horror/

  15. d dan says:
    @Hoekom

    “You conquer Tibet to…”

    Tibet has always been part of China since Qing dynasty. China has more reasons to claim Tibet than whites to claim America, Canada, Australia, etc.

    “What are the Chinese fighting for … But why this?”

    Most of the disputed lands have traditionally been part of Tibet, and Tibet has never been part of India.

    So your question should be what are the Indians fighting for.

  16. d dan says:
    @Realist

    “Staying out of it makes sense.”

    Therefore that will not happen.

    Here (((they))) go again for NOT staying out:

    “… Pompeo and a senior congressional leader have reprimanded China for bullying behaviour towards India…”

    source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-china-idUSKBN2391XC

    • Replies: @Realist
  17. ko says:
    @Meena

    Thank God for Trump. And I pity this nation when he leaves office in 2024.

    I’d much prefer no immigration, and rather than reparations for Godless marxist BLM blacks who were never slaves, why don’t we give them each 50,000 dollars, take away their citizenship, and treat them to a one way ticket to Liberia without any chance of migrating back to USA?

    • Agree: anonymous1963
  18. ko says:
    @Hoekom

    They want Pakistan.

  19. Realist says:
    @d dan

    But China will, probably, tell them to shit in their hat.

  20. Kouroi says:

    A more insightful account on the situation between India and China is presented by the host of Indian Punchline blog: https://indianpunchline.com/1962-india-china-war-redeux/

    A retired long time Indian diplomat seems to put it all at Indian government’s feet…

    • Thanks: Miro23, nokangaroos
  21. DB Cooper says:
    @Hoekom

    India should know its place and get the fuck out of South Tibet and Lakhda. The land of rapes has no business there. Have a cup of cow piss and go fuck yourself you filthy rapey ugly stinky creepy lazy dumb as a rock low IQ (average Indian IQ is 76) half evolved open defecating Hindoo monkey. By the way the lazy part is not from me, it is from the Dalai Lama. His Holiness has said openly many times that Indians are lazy.

  22. DB Cooper says:

    These fucking monkeys are polluting South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) and Ladakh.

  23. Meena says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/19/world/asia/india-china-border.html

    An article from the establishment courting aggression against China disguised as fight between democracy liberalism and open society of India and the tyranny hegemony and oppression represented by China. Don’t the IMF WB and US want such a war . ? They do . But the glorification in the article about everything India feeds into the weakness presented as strength .

    This also feeds into the populism and polemical streak of Indian think tank and media . The delusion created by multiple forces including the fantasy of the Indian middle class help Modi RSS BJP government carry on the traditions of “ Yelstin era” started by BJP ,a party of shoppers and looters in mid 90s . That is the main function of the BJP – selling state asset for a song to those shoppers and looters . Rest are sideshow .

    By this bloody nose inflicted by China on BJP’s Shah and Modi, India at least has saved itself from another bout of frenzy feeding by these shoppers and looters half clad in saffron military uniform .

    • Replies: @Miro23
  24. DB Cooper says:

    Here is an article from a Pakistan newspaper slaming India’s use of rape as weapon of war in occupied Kashmir.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/2246283/1-pakistan-slams-indias-use-rape-weapon-war/

    Occupied South Tibet is the same. In fact there were mass protests against rape by Indians in occupied South Tibet in the past. Rape by Indians in occupied South Tibet is not even recognized as a crime because of the provision of the AFSPA, which is a law giving the state the power to detain or kill anyone with impunity. AFSPA is imposed on Kashmir and South Tibet.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Malla
  25. Escher says:

    Meanwhile, the fiercely anti-Muslim White House has quietly allowed four million Hindu Indians to emigrate to the United States as a way of countering the growing number of Muslims in our nation.

    Is this true, or has all the Indian immigration over the past several years been laid at Trump’s doorstep?

  26. Miro23 says:
    @Meena

    An article from the establishment courting aggression against China disguised as fight between democracy liberalism and open society of India and the tyranny hegemony and oppression represented by China.

    Agreed. The New York Times article is behind a pay wall, but it’s available here:

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/will-india-side-with-the-west-against-china-a-test-is-at-hand/articleshow/76484635.cms

    An interesting paragraph from the article:

    Everyone is more than willing, privately, to talk about what to do with China in a post COVID world, the diplomat said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “The ways that China has influenced that world order, can now more easily be discussed, as we are trying to figure out what the new world order is”.

    It could almost have been dictated by Henry Kissinger himself, There’s that “post COVID world” that resonates do much with that “post 9/11 world” and there’s that “world order” favourite expression.

    IMO Kissinger was very much involved with both 9/11 and Covid-19.

  27. vox4non says:

    I suspect that Modi (or someone in his inner circle) hoped to curry favour with Washington and did a little demo against China. However, even after the news of the death of Indian troops, and no word of support from Washington (plus the lack of condolences from Kathmandu or Dakka or Colombo), Modi has seemingly backtracked on his belligerence:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-20/modi-says-china-isn-t-occupying-indian-territory-after-clashes

    It would be tragic for India, that despite being a seemingly sovereign country, continues to be mentally enslaved and be a cat’s paw for other powers. Especially those who stand to gain from making large weapon sales.

  28. gT says:
    @Hoekom

    “Archibald cites scientific evidence that a solar minimum is upon us. We are just now reaching the end of a warm period. But this was no ordinary warm period. “From 1930 to 2010,” writes Archibald, “the world’s population increased by 250 percent while world grain production increased 392 percent.” In other words, we have lived through the greatest period of prosperity in man’s history; but now, due to changes in the Sun, our luck is going to run out.”

    https://jrnyquist.blog/2020/06/20/chinese-strategy-and-the-solar-minimum/#more-2510

  29. Washington’s efforts to “counter-balance China’s increasing military power” seem certain to end in war. Momentum is building in that direction, the problem looking intractable.
    https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/

  30. barr says:

    Modi has also said he will dispatch his defense minister to Moscow to discuss ways to “further deepen the India-Russia defense and strategic partnership”, in a not-too-subtle signal to Beijing that he may look to long-time ally Moscow for support. https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/modis-response-to-china-killings-under-heavy-fire/

    back and forth and back again will Russia dance ?

  31. @Chris Mallory


    “Two groups of Asians fighting each other. Not my monkey, not my circus”
    I notice guys and maybe girls with british last names can’t write without making statements like this , you people are dumb.

  32. anon[368] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    India is trying to live up to its image of super power after being shown its place by China .

    “General Manager Upal Majumdar has been turning the Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee’s SAARC House, established by the late King Birendra, into an anti-Nepal information gathering center with intelligence and information technology for officers of the intelligence service and the Guard Commando Force.

    Former Tourism Minister Hisila Yami has given written permission to the Indian Guard Commando Force to come to Tribhuvan International Airport and former Prime Minister Dr Baburam Bhattarai has approved it from the Cabinet.

    According to a senior official of the National Investigation Department, a dozen officers of the Indian Research and Analysis Wing, (RAW) Service and the Guard Commando Force have been active against Nepal under the leadership of Upal Majumdar, General Manager of the Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee, with state-of-the-art weapons.

    According to a senior official of the National Investigation Department, a large number of armed Indian Research and Analysis Wing, (RAW) officers and a dozen officers of the Guard Commando Force have been staying at Hotel Soaltee. He said that while trying to inform Prime Minister Oli about this, Advisor Rajan Bhattarai obstructed him.

    An official of the National Investigation Department said, “King Gyanendra Shah has remained silent on anti-national activities at his hotel in the belief that the monarchy will be restored.” There is a danger of taking big security action even at that time.

    He emphasized that Upal Majumdar, was himself an Indian Research and Analysis Wing, (RAW) agent, under whose leadership the Indian Guard Commando Force could invade Nepal’s national security at any time through the SAARC House of Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee, founded by the late King Birendra.

    Remember that Upal Majumdar and the Indian Embassy in Nepal have been conducting regular meetings and activities against Nepal’s national security by making this hotel the center for the unification of Nepal’s Terai centric (Madhesi) parties.

    According to an employee of Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee, there is a large number of guard commando forces and weapons inside Hotel.

    Upal Majumdar an Indian national with a salary of around Rs 1 million, has been running regular hotel activities even when there are no customers.

    Employees of Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee say that the failure of the Nepal Government to immediately control and investigate these activities against Nepal Rastra could be unfortunate for the country.https://www.nepal24hours.com/raw-and-indian-guard-commando-force-with-weapons-in-soaltee-crowne-plaza-nepal/

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  33. @animalogic

    funny, was thinking exactly same when hearing of the fist fight. thank goodness we cheated ww3.

  34. DB Cooper says:
    @anon

    I know. Delusion of grandeur is not a new thing for these fucking Hindoo monkeys. I wonder whether it has something to do with drinking cow piss. This article sums it up pretty good on Indians fetish on their country’s supposed imminent superpowerdom.

    https://oneworld.press/?module=articles&action=view&id=1536

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Lin
  35. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    There is a lot of rancor towards India among the general Nepalese population on the other hand Indians at the core really think Nepal should be a part of India. But Nepal is not that easy for India to digest.

  36. Lin says:
    @DB Cooper

    Delusion of grandeur is not a new thing for these….

    Its not unusual for them attempting to project the image of an emerging superpower as a mental opioid. They simply ignore the ground reality. I”m not surprised that they import power generators from china(China is the world’s largest electricity producer) but why they can’t compete with china in making incense sticks? Really no jesting intended;they ignore their deep rooted problems.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
    , @Malla
  37. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    This article is written a decade ago by some clear headed Indian about Indian’s superpower fixation.

    https://openthemagazine.com/features/india/indias-superpower-delusions/

  38. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    By the way Hong Kong has a lot of these fucking Hindoo monkeys which is absolutely disgusting. I wonder whether the CCP can help the Hong Kong government do something about it. This will be hugely welcome by the people of Hong Kong, I can guarantee that. The best way is to evict these stinky filth back to their fucking shithole India.

    • Replies: @Escher
  39. Escher says:
    @DB Cooper

    Wow, Charlie. You’ve highlighted a lot of Chinks in India’s armor.
    The terrain favors the Indian army though, especially compared to the Slopes on the Chinese side.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @antibeast
  40. Lin says:
    @Escher

    The terrain favors the Indian army though, especially compared to the Slopes on the Chinese side.

    Any real data?
    ………..
    Some hard realities the Indian chest thumpers seldom mention:
    –New Delhi is only about 350 km from china border, within range of Chinese multi-barrel artillery rockets. Obviously that applies to many indian military installations along the border. Ballistic defense system will be lot more expensive than cost of those rockets.
    –The Assam(an indian state attached to rest of india by a narrow strip of land) ‘chicken neck’.
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/sy-400.htm

  41. Chinaman says:

    “PM Narendra Modi has made no secret of its growing hostility to both China “but “ It is of course a planned offensive by China” .

    Non- sequitur galore.

    For the idiots, Modi said the Chinese did not enter Indian territory which means it was Indians that were in Chinese soil…That’s your autopsy report.

  42. antibeast says:
    @Escher

    The terrain favors the Indian army though, especially compared to the Slopes on the Chinese side.

    India lacks the air force needed to enforce its tactical objectives in the Himalayas as proven by its need to buy more fighter jets. Here’s an expert analysis of the recent decision by India to buy Su-30s and MiG-20s from Russia:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/06/19/india-is-buying-the-wrong-russian-warplane-for-fighting-china/#730950e31281

    The Indian Air Force needs new fighters. It needed them pretty badly before the current conflict with China over a stretch of the Himalayas that both countries claim. Now it needs them even worse.

    Tom Cooper, an author and aviation expert, expressed his surprise that the Indian air force reportedly wants Su-30s and MiG-29s to meet its emergency requirement for a couple squadrons worth of jets. The Su-30, while seemingly impressive on paper, lacks performance and combat capability compared to Western models.

    “Your air force has got 200 to 250 Su-30s,” Cooper pointed out on Facebook. “Still, when you want to bomb a terrorist gang in the neighboring country, you need almost 40-year-old Mirage 2000s, instead.”

    Cooper was referring to the February 2019 clash between Indian and Pakistani forces over disputed Kashmir, roughly in the same region where Indian and Chinese troops would collide more than a year later.

    Indian Air Force Mirage 2000s initiated the combat with a precision strike on a suspected terrorist base inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan responded with F-16s. When the dust settled, the Indians had lost a single MiG-21 fighter.

    Those same Mirage 2000s had been decisive during an earlier conflict in Kashmir back in 1999. India’s Russian-made fighters had struggled to strike Pakistani bases high in the mountains. But a single coordinated strike by Mirage 2000s hauling Litening camera pods and laser-guided bombs succeeded in knocking out a key Pakistani headquarters.

    “In these attacks, the target was acquired through the Litening pod’s electro-optical imaging sensor at about nine miles out, with weapons release occurring at a slant range of about five miles and the aircraft then turning away while continuing to mark the target with a laser spot,” Air Force Magazine noted in 2012.

    Cooper’s point is that, for decades, the Mirage 2000 has been a more effective fighter in Indian service than the Su-30 has been. The Rafale, the French-made successor to the Mirage, likewise is among India’s better fighters. But the country has ordered just 36 Rafales.

    The Su-30 not only lacks the latest precision air-to-ground ordnance, it doesn’t perform well from the high-altitude air bases that support Indian operations along the so-called “Line of Actual Control,” the border between Indian and Chinese forces in the Himalayas. Diplomats drew that line as part of truce talks following a bitter, bloody border war in 1962.

    Kushok Bakula Rimpochee Airport in the Indian city of Leh supports Indian warplanes for operations over the Himalayas. The Indian army’s ongoing efforts to improve a road between Leh and an Indian outpost just a few miles from Line of Actual Control might be what incited the current clash.

    Kushok Bakula Rimpochee’s 9,000-foot runway is situated 11,000 feet above sea level. The Su-30 doesn’t work well in those conditions, according to Cooper. “They’re happy if the jet can launch while carrying two [air-to-air missiles],” Cooper wrote. “And brake-discs and tires must be replaced after every single sortie.”

    The lighter MiG-29 apparently functions better in Leh than the Su-30 does. But that doesn’t mean the old MiG is the right choice for India. The MiG-29s New Delhi plans to buy from Russia apparently are outdated models that Russian workers will refurbish before handing over. “They are simply not up to the task,” Cooper said of the MiG-29s.

    So why, when confronted with an encroaching Chinese army, does the Indian air force want Sukhois?

    It should be obvious. Indian firm HAL builds the Su-30s under license in India. Buying Sukhois funnels Indian money to Indian companies. Although, as Cooper pointed out, with adequate political will India could license the Rafale, too.

    “The experiences of last year should’ve brought the Indians to their senses,” Cooper said. “They could’ve bought more Rafales.”

    China doesn’t need to do anything as nothing seems to be working for Modi with the Indian air force as chaotic as the crowded streets of New Delhi. Whatever happened to Modi’s Pivot to the USA?

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  43. Malla says:
    @gT

    China always wants to claim more territory for itself, so India must build more nukes to defend itself.

    That is B.S. All China perhaps wants is the territory of the old Qing Empire, nothing more. It is India which grabbed territory after it left the British empire in 1947. The Chinese do not want Himachal Pradesh or Delhi.

    Also the demographics thanks to the One Child Policy in the past is working against China, India will have more fighting age men available the longer the peace lasts. China has the next 5 years to achieve its ambitions else its opportunity is gone.

    India will be a demographic disaster due to automation. The Chiense PLA actually reduced their military numbers and made it more efficient and modern. You think they are dumb.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  44. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Part of it comes from an arrogance of history. We Indians feel that we are the only civilization, others all copied from us. All science and philosophy etc… started in ancient India. There was a time in 10000000 BC when we were flying around in ancient flying ships chanting Sanskrit mantra rap battles while all others lived in caves wearing bark and eating bark. Everything came from ancient India. So India has to be a superpower and Jagatguru (World Teacher, Jagat = World, Guru=Teacher)
    It is Brahmanical (very Jewish like) superiority complex feelings permeating to the rest of the population mixed with a milder form of Indian version of Afrocentrism of the lower caste populations(flying pyramids in Egypt with black astronauts, wakandaism, Yakub the black scientist creating White debils who stole our technology etc…). Since like all brown populations of the world, we have (diluted) black tendencies.

    A lot of this B.S. was first used in the independence struggle against the British Raj. This theory that before the British came, India was a paradise and every Indian was a millionaire and the British looted us & stopped us from being superpower. Of course this is non sense, the truth is opposite.
    Of course all such revolutionary movements in the world need lies to use the emotions of the people as weapons against the present power structure. But after the revolution succeeds these lies and fables generated to create emotions crystallize as “official history” which creates a sort of “popular history” among the people full of B.S and nonsense. This is common throughout the world. The revolution has to justify itself in “Official history” forever. Most people do not have the time and interest of doing their own research in historical events and to read things “from the other side” to come to an objective judgement. But some knowledge of history does picture our view of the world and such fables are liked by people, they massage the ego. Thus more preferred than bitter truths. But you can fool humans, you can fool animals but you cannot fool this universe. Truth is the truth.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Lin
  45. Malla says:
    @DB Cooper

    Pakistan uses the same weapon. Rape was used on a huge scale by Pakistani forces during the Bangladeshi independence struggle from West Pakistan.

  46. Malla says:

    If you ask me it seems like what the Hindu fundamantalist hypernationalist RSS wanted, they got in this latest Indo-China skirmishes. For years now I have been receiving Whatsapp messages from my low IQ hindutvadi relatives (unlike my more Westernized friends) that to boycott Chinese products and to uninstall Chinese apps. This skirmish mixed with the anger in the poor masses for China over COVID 19 finally gave them hypernationalist RSS what they wanted. Kindoff reminds me of the boycott of British cloth in the early 1900s. For the 100s of millions of Indians, China is the new British Raj.

    The truth is the Indian Govt is under constant pressure from the Indian masses especially the hypernationalists to do something about national enemy, China. It is the part of the Westernised elites who are talking about having an attitude of understanding with China and opposing the ban on Chinese products and apps. Due to the death of Indian soldiers and the country being in a hyper nationalist mode any talk about friendship with China in India would be suicide. But the Westernized elites are still trying to talk some sense in the hypernationalist masses but I do not know if that will work. The problem is the common man of India, the teeming millions of masses who absolutely hate China as national enemy and put the Govt under constant pressure to do something about the “Chinese question”.
    Modi may take orders from the West or not but even if the West were to disappear from the World , the main engine of anti-China feelings is the Indian population who look at China as an arrogant imperialist nation, a British Raj 2.0 so to speak.
    If the Chinese deep state thinks India is acting as a sepoy of the West or that the main engine of anti-China feelings is the West, they are way off and totally clueless. The main engine of anti-China feelings is the Indian masses in our 100s of millions.
    Similarly the Indian deep state thinks that the recent anti-India actions of Nepal are because Nepal is acting as a good sepoy for their masters, China. But both of them (India and China) are getting it wrong.

  47. @joe2.5

    Yeah he said many off things – but that was the major one. But then I realized maybe he meant because India still secretly has a caste system and serfdom – while China forced Tibet to get rid of it – which is why the Dalai Lama colluded with the CIA and had to flee.

  48. @Malla

    Not even fully… China gave up millions of square kilometers willingly since the CCP took over… Outer Mongolia – Russian Far East – Tajikstan – Kazahkstan – all received land from the CCP that was a part of Qing Dynasty. In fact the authorities in Taiwan used that for decades to deride Beijing as not the real successor government.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
  49. @antibeast

    I think that Forbes piece was more about goading India into buying western weapons rather than Russian ones. That writer is suspecting for even sourcing NDTV regarding the conflict.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  50. DB Cooper says:
    @showmethereal

    Also Myanmar. What happened is that the so called McMahon line (a diplomatic fogery that no Chinese government has ever recognized) stretches all the way from South Tibet to Burma. Even though the CCP does not recognize the so called McMahon line, it was willing to settle along the alignment of the so called McMahon line. According to Neville Maxwell, author of the India’s China War, when India annexed Tawang the PRC did not protest while the Nationalist government vehemently condemned India’s travesty (Just like in 1987 when India make South Tibet a state and named it AP the ROC issued a statement vowing never to recognize AP part of India). And in order to demonstrate its sincerity to India in conceding territories it settled its border with Burma along the alignment of the so called McMahon line in the 1950s. India probably took it as a sign of weakness and refuses to settle along the so called McMahon line and the disputes fester to this day. Had Nehru been less greedy South Tibet (so called AP) would legally be part of India.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  51. DB Cooper says:
    @showmethereal

    There is more to why Taiwan deride Beijing not a real successor government besides the territorial concessions. Any regime that paraded portraits of foreigners in their national day and force its people to pay homage to those foreigners is not a real legitimate government. And the CCP did exactly that. There was a time when huge portraits of Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Engels were hung in Tiannamen square but indigenous Chinese culture were considered politically incorrect. Adding insult to injury is that Stalin’s Russia is a land grabber of China. This shit is so disgusting that the CCP nowadays don’t do it anymore and probably want people to forget. But this is part of their history.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @showmethereal
  52. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    Part of it comes from an arrogance of history. We Indians feel that we are the only civilization, others all copied from us. All science and philosophy etc… started in ancient India.

    I notice the same thing with Arabs. They feel that theirs is the only civilization because they view Islam as the one true religion with all other religions and civilizations as false and inferior to Islamic Civilization which they created.

    • Agree: Malla
    • Replies: @Lin
  53. antibeast says:
    @DB Cooper

    There is more to why Taiwan deride Beijing not a real successor government besides the territorial concessions. Any regime that paraded portraits of foreigners in their national day and force its people to pay homage to those foreigners is not a real legitimate government. And the CCP did exactly that. There was a time when huge portraits of Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Engels were hung in Tiannamen square but indigenous Chinese culture were considered politically incorrect. Adding insult to injury is that Stalin’s Russia is a land grabber of China. This shit is so disgusting that the CCP nowadays don’t do it anymore and probably want people to forget. But this is part of their history.

    The CCP is considered by the ROC to be an illegitimate regime because its founding ideology of Marxism-Leninism is a foreign import from the Soviet Union which turned China into its satellite State from 1949 to 1960. Contrary to Western misconceptions, there was little support among the Chinese masses for Marxism-Leninism when the CCP started. It was only later during the Long March that Mao invented what came to be known as Maoism which was a revolutionary ideology based on a People’s War of National Liberation, applied first against the Imperial Japanese Army during WWII and later against the KMT during the Chinese Civil War. Mao’s Great Leap Forward which was based on the failed policy of “agricultural collectivization” originated in the Soviet Union not China. The CCP used to hang portraits of Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Engels who are so alien to the Chinese masses that they stopped doing it after the Sino-Soviet split in 1960. So alien in fact that Chinese masses didn’t understand who they were or what Marxism-Leninism meant. But they understood Maoism and its revolutionary ideology of waging a People’s War of National Liberation against the Imperial Japanese Army. That’s why the CCP grew tenfold during WWII because the Chinese masses knew the Imperial Japanese Army to be their enemy. And the rest, as they say, is history.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @DB Cooper
  54. Lin says:
    @Malla

    (To make it short..)
    –As I mentioned before,considering the lingual, ethnic, regional ‘diversity’of India..and that Hinduism is the biggest religion there, it’s expected that India nationalism became hindu nationalism. ‘arrogance of history’? Actually it has more to do with serious lack of pre-Mogul historiography and the nationalistic opportunity. The modern greeks don’t claim the chariot of Apollo a spaceship.
    –Xi doesn’t want war; Modi also understands India can’t afford a war with china but as you said he’s riding a wave of hindu nationalism he helped to promote and he’ll make the best use of it to his political interests. My gut feeling is that he’s not that hinduwadis.
    –The yanks want 1)China to divert resources from the pacific theatre 2)to sell more weapons to India [3)It’s highly unlikely the Indians will let the yanks to have military bases inside India]
    https://parstoday.com/en/news/world-i123380-india_approves_purchase_of_russian_fighter_jets_despite_us_sanction_threats.
    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/Data%20for%20all%20countries%20from%201988%E2%80%932019%20as%20a%20share%20of%20GDP.pdf
    –1)Chinese expenditure($261 billion) on military at 1.9% of GDP is lower than the 2.4% ($71 billions) of india’s and sure can afford more and also considered that Chinese military spendings,R&D, manufacture are lot more internally circulated. 2)Indian army manpower right now is the biggest in the world at 1.4 million while china’s is the 3rd at less than 1 million. Indian equipment spending per soldier is quite low. Indian govt will make a new version of the Russian AK47 to replace their indigenous INSAS rifles.
    –I fully understand indian sentiments; and the Indian nationalism is a complex matter and mis-directed. India, even with its high population density, actually has good agricultural growth potential. Why not just spend more efforts on growing food, create employment.. and improve education? Some years ago, India recognised ‘dual citizenship’, so even self-proclaimed nationalist upper caste elite have no qualms migrating to high income countries.

    • Replies: @Malla
  55. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    ideology of Marxism-Leninism is a foreign import from the Soviet Union

    Marxism was a foreign import into Russia as well.

    f waging a People’s War of National Liberation against the Imperial Japanese Army.

    I thought most of the heavy figitn against the Imperial Japanese forces was done by the Nationalist KMT forces.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @DB Cooper
  56. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    I think that Forbes piece was more about goading India into buying western weapons rather than Russian ones. That writer is suspecting for even sourcing NDTV regarding the conflict.

    Yes, I know. That’s why I ended my post questioning Modi’s Pivot to the USA. Modi wants to have his cake and eat it too. But the USA wants to eat his cake and eat him too by cutting India off from Russia. India’s purchase of more weapons from Russia would likely incur the wrath of the USA.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  57. DB Cooper says:
    @antibeast

    “It was only later during the Long March that Mao invented what came to be known as Maoism which was a revolutionary ideology based on a People’s War of National Liberation, applied first against the Imperial Japanese Army during WWII and later against the KMT during the Chinese Civil War.”

    Don’t be silly. The CCP didn’t fight the Japanese. The KMT did. This is another nonsense the CCP is trying to propagate (there is a reason for all these WWII TV drama). The majority of the time the CCP was hiding in the vast hinterland of China (where you couldn’t even see a Japanese ghost) recruiting people into its ranks while the KMT were fighting the Japanese in big cities. At most the stupid eight route army was conducting some guerilla type operations which caused some nuisance to the Japanese army and is milked by the CCP for all its worth. The heavy lifting of fighting Japanese is the KMT, period. This is all well documented with ample amount of documents, films and other historic artifacts supporting the KMT history and the accounts were corrobarated from the Japanese side (from the Japanese perspective of course). I am sure the CCP totally whitewash this history and invented the fiction that the CCP fighting the Japanese instead of the KMT, for obvious reason. When Japan surrender the Nationalist army were decimated while the CCP members swelled in size. Fighting the Japanese my a$$.

    There are many well documented famous battles the KMT fought, one of them is the Battle of Taierzhuang.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taierzhuang

  58. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    I thought most of the heavy fighting against the Imperial Japanese forces was done by the Nationalist KMT forces.

    Yes and no. Most of the initial fighting was done by the KMT but Chiang decided to wage a war of attrition against the Imperial Japanese Army by moving his capital from Nanjing to Chongqing. The CCP meanwhile waged a “People’s War” using guerrilla tactics against the IJA in the Northeast which forced the Japanese into a stalemate. The IJA couldn’t move beyond their contested territory in the Northeast because the CCP guerrillas would cut off their supply lines to Manchuria. In frustration, the Japanese resorted to committing war crimes, the bulk of which occurred in the CCP-controlled Northeast during the infamous “Three-Alls” campaign launched by the IJA to break the will of the Chinese masses. The CCP adopted the Maoist People’s War of National Liberation against the IJA during this time of widespread atrocities which is why its membership grew tenfold. In contrast, the KMT gangster-capitalists resorted to war profiteering, looting peasants, contraband smuggling, opium trading, etc. Chiang couldn’t control the KMT gangster-capitalists whom he later blamed for his defeat by the CCP during the Chinese Civil War. He lost his best German-trained divisions during the initial fighting and had to rely on American-trained divisions later on. But he couldn’t get along with the Americans whom he personally disliked, preferring instead the Germans whom he hired after losing the Civil War and fleeing to Taiwan.

    Here’s a map of the extent of Japanese occupation during WWII:

    Note the striped areas which denote CCP-controlled territories which directly obstructs any kind of expansion of IJA-controlled territories (solid red).

  59. DB Cooper says:
    @Malla

    “I thought most of the heavy figitn against the Imperial Japanese forces was done by the Nationalist KMT forces.”

    You are absolutely right. The only thing the CCP did during these difficult times is to take advantage of the situation and grew its ranks while the government is fighting the Japanese invader. That the CCP today white washed this history is all the more disgusting but this is what you would expect. It would be weird if the CCP come clean to its people. History is written by the victors.

  60. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Actually it has more to do with serious lack of pre-Mogul historiography and the nationalistic opportunity. The modern greeks don’t claim the chariot of Apollo a spaceship.

    Agreed. But not pre Mogul but pre Islamic. The Mughals were not the first Islamic rulers. Before that there was the Delhi Sultanate with many dynasties, most of them Turkish. Babur our first Indian Mughal Emperor (then a prince from Uzbekistan) defeated the Delhi Sultanate to create the Mughal Indian Empire.

    Xi doesn’t want war;

    Of course China would not want war, it would not want to waste resources on war. Especially right now when China’s international influence has taken a hit thanks to the pandemic which (right or wrong reasons, very likely wrong) is being blamed on China.

    My gut feeling is that he’s not that hinduwadis.

    But Hinduvadis have influence in his party, the BJP.

    The yanks want 1)China to divert resources from the pacific theatre 2)to sell more weapons to India

    Good point except that it seems it is the Russians who are benefiting the most at the moment as far as weapons sales are concerned. Maybe the USA (& Israel) will get some orders too.

    Indian nationalism is a complex matter and mis-directed.

    It is not very complex dude. Is it misdirected. Definitely. But a lot of that has to do with the Indian Govt not telling the truth to its own people. For example most of us do not know that in 1962, we invaded Chinese territory with the “Forward Policy” of Nehru and how PR China was controlling itself in the beginning. About how Indian POWs were treated well by the PLA forces. Indeed Indians hate Nehru for being soft on China !!!! We also do not know that Indian Chinese were interned in concentration camps during that war like how Japanese Americans were treated in WW2. Most of us do not know the good things done by the British Raj. About how our own Govt bullies its small neighbours. About how we illegally captured kingdoms and peoples in the North East including Sikkim where we back-stabbed the trust of the good King of Sikkim.
    But nearly all Governments in the world lie to their own people.

    Russian AK47 to replace their indigenous INSAS rifles.

    Yeah INSAS by our DRDO was a flop.

    actually has good agricultural growth potential.

    We already along with PRC and USA are a major food producer and exporter in the World. However in India, agriculture suffers because as populations have grown, primarily in rural areas, the land getting divided among sons, has become small per farmer. Ofcourse there are some rich farmers too and they get a lot of economic benefits of being farmers (no tax, free electricity etc..) but until India has its own mega industrial revolution like the scale of China where a lot more rural people get absorbed into cities thus lessening population pressure in our farmlands, this problem will still persist. But for that the productivity of the workers has got to be increased, infrastructure developed, the Govt has to have a clear policy, legal infrastructure needs to be expanded (more judges and courts as cases takes years in India, we need to expand our British built legal infrastructure) etc… My friend’s Dad is a judge and he has to see cases per day 5 times the number that was originally recommended. Imagine that.

    • Replies: @Lin
  61. Lin says:
    @antibeast

    I notice the same thing with Arabs. They feel that theirs is the only civilization because they view Islam as the one true religion with all other religions and civilizations as false and inferior to Islamic Civilization which they created.

    A few words of caution:
    –The arabs have the historiographic tradition the ancient hindus lacked. Actually Alberuni, the first historian who wrote on pan-subcontinent scale was a muslim who accompanied a muslim conqueror king.
    –Acc0rding to muslims, ‘Islamic Civilization’ also included Judaic and early Christian Civilization.
    Jesus was a Prophet of Islam sent by Allah.
    –My impression many muslims are mentally depressed. Petroleum is said to be Allah’s great gift to arabs/muslims. Seems such a divine gift is depreciating, not to mention it’s being plundered by the west as well as by the arab monarchs. All religions are facing unprecedent upheavals

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @antibeast
  62. Malla says:
    @Lin

    ‘Islamic Civilization’ also included Judaic and early Christian Civilization.

    Agreed but Muslims believe that they have the final message from God (Koran) while Jews and Christians changed the message and Christians started worshiping a messenger of Allah as son of God. Thus Christians are misguided according to Islam and Jews deliberately changed the Torah, one of the worst things being usury or Riba (which I agree with, usury sucks). This having the final and true message from the creator can have its own psychological effects on a people.

    From Islam and the Psychology of the Musulman, authored by Andre Servier
    Chapter 14
    http://musulmanbook.blogspot.com/2005/11/ch-xiv-14-mind-of-musulman.html

    “FROM the point at which we have arrived in this essay, it is not impossible to understand and to explain the psychology of the Arab, and consequently of the Muslim. For the Muslim, whoever he may be, subjected for centuries to the religious law, in itself an expression of the Arab mind, has received so deep an impression from it as to have become totally Arabized. To understand the psychology of the Arab, the mechanism of his brain, is by the same token to account for the psychology of any given Muslim. The African Berber thinks on the same lines, and acts on the same lines as the Syrian, the Turk, the Persian, the Cossack, or the native of Java. All these people being Islamized think and behave as the Arab does.
    The religious law, of Arab inspiration, that has been imposed upon the Muslim world, has had the effect of imparting to the very diverse individuals, of whom that world is composed, a unity of thought, of feeling, of conceptions, and of judgment. The scale that has served to measure this thought, these feelings, etc., is an Arab scale; and consequently the minds of all Muslims have been leveled down to the stature of the Arab mind.

    The chief characteristic of the Arab, and therefore of the Muslim, is a fixed belief in his own intellectual superiority. Incapable as he is, through the barrenness of his mind and the poverty of his imagination, of conceiving any other condition than his own, any other mode of thought, he firmly believes that he has arrived at an unequaled pitch of perfection; that he is the sole possessor of the true faith, of the true doctrine, the true wisdom; that he alone is in possession of the truth, no relative truth subject to revision, but truth intangible, imperfectible [which cannot be corrupted] — absolute Truth.”

    …snip….

    “This conviction, which nothing can weaken, inspires the Muslim with an inalienable attachment to his traditions. Outside Islam there can be no safety; outside its law, no truth, no happiness. The evolution of foreign nations, the increasing accumulations of their knowledge, scientific progress, the improvements effected by human effort in material well-being leave him indifferent. He is the Believer, par excellence, the superior, the perfect Being.

    This conception, as has been truly remarked, (2) divides the world into two parts: Believers and Infidels. The Believer is in a state of perpetual war with the Infidel, and this right, this duty of eternal war can only be suspended: “Make war,” says the Holy Book, “on those who believe neither in God nor in the last judgment, who do not regard as forbidden what God and his Prophet have forbidden, on those who do not profess the true religion, until they, humbled in spirit, shall pay tribute with their own hands.”

    (2) Snouck Hurgronje, Muslim Law

    The Muslim, convinced of his own superiority, will not suffer any teaching. ”

    …snip….

    “Intellectually, the Muslim is, nevertheless, a paralytic; his brain, subjected in the course of centuries to the rough discipline of Islam, is closed to all that has not been foreseen, announced and specified by the religious law. He is, therefore, systematically hostile to all novelty, to all modification, to all innovation.

    Whatever exists has been created by the will of the Almighty. It is not for man to modify His work. If God had wished that what exists should be different, he would have made it so, irrespective of all human volition. To act is thus, to some extent, to misunderstand the divine decisions, to wish to substitute human desires for them, to commit an act of insubordination. Such a conception puts all progress out of the question; and, in fact, immobility is the essential characteristic of every Muslim community.

    As has been remarked, “the Muslim, remaining faithful to his religion, has not progressed; he has remained stationary in a world of swiftly moving modern forces. It is, indeed, one of the salient features of Islamism that it immobilizes in their native barbarism the races whom it enslaves. It is fixed in a crystallization inert and impenetrable. It is unchangeable; and political, social or economic changes have no repercussion upon it.” (4)”

    • Replies: @Lin
  63. Lin says:
    @Malla

    Many might not understand indian agricultural potential:
    –Chinese land area is 3 times than of india but only 15% of Chinese land are arable compared to 60% of india. India also has more rain and generally warmer than china. Chinese and indian grain production are respectively about 640 million tons and 280 million tons. Chinese meat consumption per capita isn’t much at about 60 kg/yr but decent.(Euro average fig. I think is 80kg)
    –Holland, a major food exporter, has higher popn density than india.
    https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/01/the-netherlands-is-the-second-largest-agricultural-exporter-after-us/
    …………….
    india can easily challenge US as a food exporter if the Indians work on it.

    • Thanks: Malla
    • Replies: @Malla
  64. Malla says:

    The arabs have the historiographic tradition the ancient hindus lacked. Actually Alberuni, the first historian who wrote on pan-subcontinent scale was a muslim who accompanied a muslim conqueror king.

    This is very true. The first folks in India to record history were the Muslims. Pre Islamic history is very vague and mixes seamlessly with mythology and chest thumpings. But the first folks to research pre Islamic history of India in a scientific way were the Europeans especially officers of the British East India Company.

    For example Mills writes

    It is allowed on all hands that no historical composition existed in the literature of the Hindus; they had not reached that point of intellectual maturity, at which the value of a record of the past for the guidance of the future begins to be understood. “The Hindus,” says that zealous and industrious Sanscrit scholar, Mr. Wilford, “have no ancient civil history.” Remarking a coincidence in this characteristic circumstance between them and another ancient people, he adds, “Nor had the Egyptians any work purely historical.” Major Rennel says, that, founded on Hindu materials, there is no known history of Hindustan, nor any record of the historical events of that country prior to the Mahomedan conquests; and since that period, it is not to Hindu, but Mahomedan pens that we are indebted for all our knowledge of the Mahomedan conquests, and of the events which preceded the passage to India, by the Cape of Good Hope. An inclination at first appeared among [61] the warm admirers of Sanscrit to regard the poems Mahabharat and Ramayan, as a sort of historical records. A more intimate acquaintance with those [62] grotesque productions has demonstrated the impossibility of reconciling them with the order of human affairs, and, as the only expedient to soften the deformities in which they abound, suggested a theory that they are allegorical.

    On the geography and chronology, as parts of the literature of the Hindus, I shall express myself in the language of Mr. Wilford. “The Hindus,” says that celebrated Hindu scholar, “have no regular work on the subject of geography, or none at least that ever came to my knowledge.—I was under a necessity of extracting my materials from their historical poems, or, as they may be called more properly, their legendary tales.” In another place he says, “The Hindu systems of geography, chronology, and history, are all equally monstrous and absurd. The circumference of the earth is said to be 500,000,000 yojanas, or 2,456,000,000 British miles: the mountains are asserted to be 100 yojanas, or 491 British miles high. Hence the mountains to the south of Benares are said, in the Puranas, to have kept the holy city in total darkness, till Matra-deva growing angry at their insolence, they humbled themselves to the ground, and their highest peak now is not more than 500 feet high. In the Calica Purana, it is said that the mountains have sunk considerably, so that the highest is not above one yojana, or five miles high.—When the Puranics speak of the kings [66] of ancient times, they are equally extravagant. According to them, King Yudhishthir reigned 27,000 years; King Nanda is said to have possessed in his treasury above 1,584,000,000 pounds sterling in gold coin alone; the value of the silver and copper coin, and jewels, exceeded all calculation: and his army consisted of 100,000,000 men. These accounts, geographical, chronological, and historical, as absurd and inconsistent with reason, must be rejected. This monstrous system seems to derive its origin from the ancient period of 12,000 natural years, which was admitted by the Persians, the Etruscans, and, I believe, also by the Celtic tribes; for we read of a learned nation in Spain, which boasted of having written histories of above six thousand years.”

    Whoever, in the present improved state of our knowledge, shall take the trouble to contemplate the proofs which we possess of the state of knowledge and civilization among the Hindus, can form no other conclusion, but that every thing (unless astronomy be an exception) bears clear, concurring, and undeniable testimony to the ignorance of the Hindus, and the low state of civilization in which they remain. That such a people are masters of the science of astronomy to a degree which none but nations highly cultivated have elsewhere ever attained, is certainly [89] not to be credited on any chain of proof that is not entire.

    Of the fitness of the proof to maintain any such conclusions as have been founded upon it, an idea may be formed from this; that Mr. Bentley, who has paid great attention to the books of Hindu astronomy, says they are all of modern date, and their pretensions to antiquity founded only on forgery. As his moderate knowledge of mathematics, however, and even the inelegancies of his style, have been sarcastically employed to throw discredit upon his conclusions, it is of importance to add that the two mathematicians whose reputation for profundity seems to exceed that of all their cotemporaries, Laplace, and an eminent ornament of our country, not only reject the inference of the great antiquity and perfection of the Hindu astronomy, but, from the evidence offered, draw a conclusion directly the reverse; viz. that this science is in the very same state of infancy among the Hindus with all the other branches of knowledge. The Surya Sidhanta is the great repository of the astronomical knowledge of the Hindus. It is on the authority of our own countryman I am enabled to declare, that this book is itself the most satisfactory of all proofs of the low state of the science among the Hindus, and the rudeness of the people from whom it proceeds; that its fantastic absurdity is truly Hindu; that all we can learn from it is a few facts, the result [90] of observations which required no skill; that its vague allegories and fanciful reflections prove nothing, or every thing; that a resolute admirer may build upon them all the astronomical science of modern times; but a man who should divest his mind of the recollection of European discoveries, and ask what a people unacquainted with the science could learn from the Surya Sidhanta, would find it next to nothing.

    The progress of knowledge, and the force of observation, demonstrated the necessity of regarding the actual state of the Hindus as little removed from that of half-civilised nations. The saving hypothesis, however, was immediately adopted, that the situation in which the Hindus are now beheld is a state of degradation; that formerly they were in a state of high civilization; from which they had fallen through the miseries of foreign conquest, and subjugation.

    This was a theory invented to preserve as much as actual observation would allow to be preserved, of a pre-established and favourite creed. It was not an inference from what was already known. It was a gratuitous assumption. It preceded inquiry, and no inquiry was welcome, but that which yielded matter for its support.

    To this purpose were adapted the pretensions of [145] the Brahmens, who spoke of an antecedent period, when the sovereigns of Hindustan were masters of great power and great magnificence. It was of importance to weigh these pretensions; because the rude writers of rude nations have almost always spoken of antecedent times as deserving all the praise with which their powers of rhetoric or song could exalt them. If the descriptions of antiquity presented by the Brahmens bore the consistent marks of truth and reality, a degree of intrinsic evidence would be attached to them. If these descriptions flew wide of all resemblance to human affairs, and were nothing but wild unnatural fictions, they would be so far from proving an antecedent state of knowledge and civilization, that they would prove the reverse. And, had the Hindus remained fixed from the earliest ages in the semibarbarous state, it is most certain that the Brahmens would have given to us just such accounts of antiquity as those we have actually received at their hands.

    As the Hindus have enlightened us by no record of antecedent events, and we thus have no immediate proof of their state of civilization, in the times that are past, the only sure ground of inference is the laws and institutions which they framed, the manners they adopted, and the arts and sciences to which they attended. If these great circumstances were at variance with the existing state of society, but adapted to one more advanced, the inference would certainly be a probable one, that to a period when society was in that improved condition, they really owed their birth. But in regard to the Hindus, their laws and institutions are adapted to the very state of society which those who visit them now behold. They are laws and institutions which, so far from importing any more perfect state of society, seem entirely inconsistent [146] with it; such as could neither begin, nor exist, under any other than one of the rudest and weakest states of the human mind. As the manners, the arts and sciences of the ancient Hindus are entirely correspondent with the state of their laws and institutions, every thing we know of the ancient state of Hindustan conspires to prove that it was rude.

    What the Brahmens fable, about an universal monarchy, and the celestial glory of this or that pretended hero, can therefore be regarded as no evidence of the facts which they assert. The propensity of the Hindus to exaggeration is every where displayed. “The officers of government here,” says Dr. Buchanan, “had the impudence to inform me, that according to Chica Deva Raya’s valuation of the country which belonged to Nandi Raj, it contained 32,000 villages…..The account here given seems to be one of those gross exaggerations common in India, and is entirely contradicted by the accounts which I received from the revenue office at Seringapatam.” Journey through Mysore, &c. ii. 97. In other places the native officers told him lies, contradicted by the very facts presented to their and his eyes, at the moment of delivering them. “Among the natives, however,” he remarks, “similar departures from the truth are common.” Ibid. p. 136, 137. Vicramaditya is indeed, expressly, at times asserted, not to have been King of all India, but only of a certain portion of it in the west. “The author of the Vicrama-Upac’hyana says, that he was a powerful prince, in the west of India, and possessed of the countries which we find, afterwards, constituting the patrimonial territories of the Balahara, which included Gurjjarasht’ra (or Gujjarat) with some adjacent districts.” Essay on Vicramaditya, &c. by Captain Wilford, Asiat. Res. ix. 14

    Dr. Buchunan found the propensity general, to deceive him in their accounts both of their religion and history. See Journey through Mysore, &c. ii. 76, 79, 80. “The Brahmens,” he says, “when asked for dates, or authority, say that they must consult their books, which may be readily done; but when I send my interpreter, who is also a Brahmen, to copy the dates, they pretend that their books are lost.” Ibid. i. 335. All information, he says, from the Brahmens, usually differs most essentially as derived from different individuals. Ibid. ii.

  65. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Chinese land area is 3 times than of india but only 15% of Chinese land are arable compared to 60% of india.

    But since China is 3 times in size, 15% makes it quite close to India’s arable land but still smaller. Anyways what I have heard is that China has had some success in greening some of its deserts. Made some kind of cellulite rich paste which converts sand into soil. So maybe China will have more arable land in the future.

  66. Lin says:
    @Malla

    Thanks. The source you quoted has exactly elaborated what I said before:
    Geopolitically (sunni) Islam is THE pillar and vehicle of arab tribal/ethnic power.
    Simultaneously..
    –Prophet Mohamed sure was the greatest ever arab hero. No contest.
    –It’s the only major pillar of arab civilisation, unlike the euros have Greco-Roman as well as Christian cultural components, Chinese have a host of philosophies, Persian still remember their Zoroastrian past(I think)…
    –There has been very little success in ‘de-arabizing’ islam OR put in this way(derogative lexicals avoided), the arabs/muslims in many ways are bounded by the walls of orthodoxy.
    …….
    Change is unavoidable, like it or not.
    BTW, I’m a serious fan of the DUNE books(written by Frank Herbert, a cousin of Joe McCarthy, probably the greatest sci-fi novel of the past few decades) which incorporates a certain future religion called Buddislam
    A new Dune movie and TVseries are coming I heard.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  67. @DB Cooper

    Indeed – though I wonder what the ROC stance is now that the DPP is in power in Taiwan. I know they still claim the islands in the South China Sea and just recently again affirmed the claims against Japan over the Diayou/Senkaku…. But I haven’t heard them speak lately on that issue. I think the DPP will claim they have nothing to do with the actual mainland and is only going with islands…??? I know the KMT still goes by the constitution of the ROC and still officially claims mainland China.

  68. @DB Cooper

    Yeah good point. There is plenty the CCP did that they regret – especially as relates to Chinese traditions. That’s why they spent a lot of money after the Cultural Revolution to try to rebuild a lot of sites that were destroyed by the Red Guards. Also there are things like the Dragon Boat Festival. It was just celebrated… But it had been banned at one time. The political jostling still happens. I was just watching a show produced from Canada called “Confucius was a Foodie”. Good program – but I can see the political bias toward Hong Kong and Taiwan. The host – a westerner who I’m sure has little clue – linked an episode with the Dragon Boat Festival. She lamented that it was banned by the mainland government. I was waiting for her to say “but it was reinstated some years ago” – but that part never came. Politics…

  69. @antibeast

    Good points… But to your last sentence… It seems the US is so worried about China surpassing it that if they have to let India buy Russian weapons just to get India to back it in a fight against China – it seems they will. Just like they had to get over Turkey and the S400. They cut Turkey off from the F35 but Turkey didn’t care. They want to buy SU-57 LOL… But the US still “needs” Turkey in NATO. This is what happens when you have “too many pots on the fire”….

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @A123
  70. antibeast says:
    @Lin

    The arabs have the historiographic tradition the ancient hindus lacked. Actually Alberuni, the first historian who wrote on pan-subcontinent scale was a muslim who accompanied a muslim conqueror king.

    That’s because Hinduism lacked a literary tradition as the Vedas were transmitted orally. Until the Muslim conquests in the 12th century, Hindu India didn’t have written records of their literature and history with the exception of the Maurya Empire (323 BCE – 184 BCE) which gave Hindu India the Arthaśāstra, the earliest text written in Sanskrit on the political philosophy based on Hinduism which later influenced the Manusmṛiti, the Hindu Code of Law, which in turn influenced the Hindu Kingdoms in Cambodia and Indonesia. The Maurya Empire became Buddhist after King Ashoka converted to Buddhism. His Edicts of Ashoka contained his political philosophy based on Buddhism which later influenced the areas of modern-day Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    The Maurya Empire is considered by many Indian historians to be some kind of a golden age because it was the largest indigenous Empire as well as the source and origin of the earliest texts in Hinduism and Buddhism. Indian nationalists who want to decolonize modern India from the post-colonial effects of the British Raj should be looking at the Maurya Empire as the historical basis of an Asian identity for modern India. Hiding behind Hindu chauvinism won’t make India great again.

  71. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    It seems the US is so worried about China surpassing it that if they have to let India buy Russian weapons just to get India to back it in a fight against China – it seems they will. Just like they had to get over Turkey and the S400. They cut Turkey off from the F35 but Turkey didn’t care. They want to buy SU-57. But the US still “needs” Turkey in NATO.

    The USA wants India to stop buying weapons from Russia as part of Modi’s Pivot to the USA. The USA doesn’t want Turkey to buy weapons from Russia either because Turkey is a member of NATO. That’s how the USA operates: you buy weapons from us and we get to tell you what to do.

    Modi is playing a loser’s game: he wants India to pivot to the USA but that entails stabbing Russia in the back. That’s because the USA treats its customers not as partners but as vassals. Now that the USA has imposed a blanket ban on H1B visas, the Indian ITO/BPO industry is getting hit the hardest from Trump’s America First agenda, effectively shredding the so-called Indo-Pacific partnership between the USA and India.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  72. antibeast says:
    @Lin

    There has been very little success in ‘de-arabizing’ Islam.

    Sorry you’re wrong. The Persians de-arabized Islam by contributing Persian art, architecture, literature, philosophy, science, technology, commerce and industry to Persianized Islam which later influenced Mongolic and Turkic Islam in Central and South Asia. The Chinese likewise de-arabized Islam by synthesizing Hui Islam from its Arabic, Persian and Turkic versions. Southeast Asians also created their own versions of Islamic cultures adapted to their tropical lifestyles.

    arabs/muslims in many ways are bounded by the walls of orthodoxy.

    That’s true only for Arabs, in my observation, because their greatest cultural and political achievements were all based on Islam. So it’s almost impossible for an Arab to become something else outside of Islam.

  73. Lin says:

    You’re correct but you didn’t read carefully the parentheses

    Geopolitically (sunni) Islam is THE pillar and vehicle of arab tribal/ethnic power.
    …….. Persians still remember their Zoroastrian past(I think)…

  74. A123 says:
    @showmethereal

    But the US still “needs” Turkey in NATO.

    Why does the U.S. need Turkey?

    It seems rather the opposite, not only does the U.S.not need Turkey. The U.S. does not want Turkey. Let us review the lengthy list:

    -1- Erdogan tried to trick the U.S. into a bloody fight by creating a kill sack between Turkish and Syria lines. This failed when Trump moved the U.S. deployment South. No one believes the “protect oil” myth. The move was disengagement from Erdogan’s impending folly.

    -2- The more Southern footprint in Syria does not need Incirlik Air Base for support.

    -3- Turkey is unreliable as a partner for NATO/U.S. equipment.

    -4- Turkey is interfering with key regional stability initatives. Most notably the EastMed pipeline that would supply energy to Greece, Italy, and Southern Europe.

    -5- Turkey is backing the Muslim Terrorist Brotherhood in Libya, which could result in a shooting war with an actual U.S. ally, Egypt.

    -6- Erdogan is openly stating he will further defile the Hagia Sophia, an important Orthodox Christian holy site.

    It is not solely the U.S. — Erdogan’s misbehaviour is upsetting almost everyone. For example, Russia: (1)

    The head of Russia’s Orthodox Church Patriarch Kirill said he was “deeply concerned” by the moves, describing Hagia Sophia as “one of the greatest monuments of Christian culture”.

    “A threat to Hagia Sophia is a threat to the whole of Christian civilisation, and therefore to our spirituality and history,” the Orthodox church leader said in a statement.

    Turkey’s future looks quite grim and lonely.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.barrons.com/news/russian-orthodox-leader-warns-turkey-over-hagia-sophia-move-01594027224

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  75. @antibeast

    True… I laughed at the tweet exchange between Trump and Modi on the 4th of July. It was pathetic on Modi’s part. As you said – India relies heavily on those H1b visas. I don’t get why Indians don’t get that whites will NOT see them as equals.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  76. @A123

    The fact you laid out all those things but the US still wants to have Turkey on it’s side says plenty. The main reason being is Turkey has a similar strategy to the US – which is to use jihadists to attempt to destabilize governments it doesn’t like.

    • Replies: @A123
  77. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    Modi’s problems are just starting with the West now treating him as a “pariah” in light of the passage of the controversial CAA bill:

    https://thewire.in/rights/anti-caa-activists-us-indian-americans

    Some analysts see a resurrection of the old anti-Modi “Coalition Against Genocide”, which prevailed in the US Congress to deny him a visa while he was chief minister of Gujarat.

    Given the wealth, power and influence of the Western-influenced Indian elites who act as Fifth-Columnists in India, Modi will be eaten alive before he gets to have his cake and eat it too. His ill-conceived “Pivot to the USA” is now backfiring on him on all fronts.

  78. A123 says:
    @showmethereal

    The fact you laid out all those things but the US still wants to have Turkey on it’s side says plenty.

    “Want” and “Need” are two very different things.

    The U.S. is not going to go out of it’s way to make the currently poor US-Turkey relations worse. However, Erdogan is going to get somewhere between nothing and zilch unless he changes his behaviour. And, that is highly unlikely.

    Erdogan’s regime cannot last forever. At this point the exercise is keeping the door open so that the U.S can work with his eventual successor.

    PEACE 😇

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