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Nuclear Rivals Clash in the Himalayas
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Last week, the world’s most populous nations, India and China, both nuclear armed, clashed in the high Himalayan region of Ladakh.

At least 20 Indian troops died and 12 were reportedly taken prisoner before a cease-fire went into effect. So far, there were no reports of Chinese casualties.

Ladakh is one of the world’s most remote, obscure and inhospitable places, a plateau averaging 4,200 meters altitude (about 14,000 feet) with frigid temperatures, scant oxygen, little rainfall, and howling winds. This bleak moonscape has long been called ‘Little Tibet’ because of its semi-nomadic ethnic Tibetan yak-herders. China has pretty much crushed the life out of Tibet’s ancient culture while India has helped preserve the Tibetan way of life.

China and India’s confrontation in airless Ladakh reminds me of the ‘bon mot’ about Ethiopia and Eritrea’s battle over the barren Ogaden desert region between them: ‘two bald men fighting over a comb.’

I’ve been over much of Ladakh by jeep, foot and even yak, and atop the world’s highest glacier, Siachen, that overlooks Ladakh. India and Pakistan have been fighting over Siachen for decades, making it the highest war in history and another crazy conflict. As a Pakistani officer told me, ‘we hate one another so much we will fight to prevent them from occupying our part of Hell.’

My book ‘War at the Top of the World’ (available through Amazon) is all about the conflict in the Himalayas and Kashmir between India, Pakistan and China.

So why are China and India at daggers drawn over the Galwan River Valley in Ladakh? Both are busy dealing with the coronavirus epidemic. Delhi and Beijing have conducted off and on diplomacy to ease Himalayan border tensions.

The clash in Ladakh was no accident but clearly a planned offensive act by China – and the biggest military operation since the two Asian giants went to war in the Himalayas in 1962, producing a serious defeat for India. China then said the war was a ‘serious message’ to India to restrain its ambitions in the region.

This time, it appears that the Chinese sent another ‘message’ to India. Part of this problem was due to the British Empire which never properly demarcated its Himalayan borders between the British Indian Raj and then independent Tibet. Some borders were never surveyed; others drawn with thick pens, leaving whole regions with unclear borders. But in those days no one cared about the vast emptiness at 14-17,000 feet. That is, until China moved in an occupied Tibet in 1950-1951, putting it on India’s northern border.

Since then, India and China have been uneasy rivals with both sides laying claims to parts of the Himalayas, Karakorams and the great rivers that course down from the Tibetan Plateau, providing water for much of Southeast Asia’s peoples.

ORDER IT NOW

Two recent issues have sparked the latest round of fighting – with threats of a much bigger war between Asia’s two giants. First, India’s new Hindu nationalist government under PM Narendra Modi has made no secret of its growing hostility to both China and its close ally, Pakistan, India’s longtime rival.

Modi’s revoking of Kashmir’s autonomous status and its division into two states has created major new tensions in the region. So have Modi’s plans to fashion a purely Hindu state in India, and China’s growing influence over Burma.

But a more important source of China’s anger has been growing efforts of the Trump administration to build a close military alliance with India to counter-balance China’s increasing military power.

Though seeming counter-intuitive to Trumps’ efforts to secure re-election by getting Beijing to buy more produce from American farmers, the Pentagon is preparing for a future war with China. Trump came close to facing a military coup in recent weeks and is trying to avoid angering the Pentagon and Washington’s active and retired military establishment.

Meanwhile, the fiercely anti-Muslim White House has quietly allowed four million Hindu Indians to emigrate to the United States as a way of countering the growing number of Muslims in our nation. Trump even offered to mediate the intractable Kashmir dispute, a proposal scorned by all sides.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: American Military, China, India, Kashmir 
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  1. DB Cooper says:

    Bunch of nonsense, as expected.

    • Replies: @anonymous1963
  2. AaronInMVD says: • Website

    I am with you on the recent civil unrest in the US having the flavor of a color revolution, but… with this border skirmish I find it quite the jump to clearly label one side the aggressor.

    As we head into this new, Greatest Depression, we ought to look at what the last one lead to. It lead to a number of nationalist distractions from the economic misery that blew up into a world war. The patriotic braying I see coming out of India this week has an almost Argentine quality… “Why won’t people outside accept we are a big, rich, and developed country too?”

    I don’t find it much of a stretch to suspect that the Indian chain of command is open to leaks from the outside. Can India ensure that the Indian Army follows Indian orders or are their officers vulnerable to Five-Eyes temptation and intrigue? Whether at the level of the division, brigade, or even the company level… Can Modi ensure not a single officer will fall for the whiteman’s promises that “Modi, the Queen and Trump all need you to get this fight started for the glory of India and the destruction of China”…. In light of Bollywood’s poor output can an Indian officer be expected to resist the chance to star in a Bond movie style plot?

    We live in a world where most of the US FBI’s terrorism arrests were made through the FBI radicalizing internet loners and they putting the cuffs on after they finally convinced their target to take action.

    Seeing how many Black Lives Gone the media pushed before they George Floyd thing stuck and the push to demonize China… What keeps the same playbook for being used to light the shooting portion of our Third World War?

  3. joe2.5 says:

    “China has pretty much crushed the life out of Tibet’s ancient culture” of feudalism, with its indentured serfdom and untold misery, “while India has helped preserve the” worse than bronze-age “Tibetan way of life” consisting essentially in the ruthless exploitation of millions of serfs, bought and sold with the land they “belonged to” and pitilessly repressed by a priestly caste of executioners on behalf of the Dalai Lama and the 18 reigning families.

    • Agree: foolisholdman
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  4. Two groups of Asians fighting each other. Not my monkey, not my circus. Let them have at it.

  5. A123 says:

    Neither side has anything to gain. Nukes mean that escalation could have huge downside.

    India has dead troops and is outraged. China is trying to calm the situation. The local forces on both sides are high strung after the skirmish and thus prone to over react.

    If both sides can keep agitated troops apart this is fixable. Rotating in new forces would allow the military leadership to get everyone with a potential grudge away from the opposing side. The land on both sides of the border are mostly useless. A deal to increase physical separation between positions should be straightforward. It will not be called a DMZ, but that type of concept prevents young men from head butting at the fence line.

    PEACE 😇

  6. kauchai says:

    To the author:

    1) ” China has pretty much crushed the life out of Tibet’s ancient culture while India has helped preserve the Tibetan way of life.”

    So, just exactly what aspects of tibetan culture did china crush? You mean ” the cleric master and serf” culture where ordinary tibetans were expected to serve the elite lamas from cradle to their graves (too bad if you were born into a serf family, your entire life is pretty much screwed)? OR the theocratic political culture where only about 200+ high born lama families ruled and dipped their filthy hands into the country’s treasury as if it was their own bank accounts?

    2) How has India preserve the tibetan way of life?

    By offering Dharamsala as a political safe haven for the Dalai Lama so that he and his bunch of thieves can continue to thrive and embarrass china according to the wishes of his CIA bosses?

    • Agree: foolisholdman
    • Thanks: showmethereal
  7. @DB Cooper

    In other words, a typical Eric Margolis article.

  8. @Chris Mallory

    Staying out of it makes sense.

    • Replies: @Realist
  9. Meena says:

    “ Meanwhile, the fiercely anti-Muslim White House has quietly allowed four million Hindu Indians to emigrate to the United States as a way of countering the growing number of Muslims in our nation. “

    This nicely fits with the IQ ,life style,and current hostage situation the orange clown, a born bastard has come to brag about.

    • Replies: @ko
  10. gT says:

    China always wants to claim more territory for itself, so India must build more nukes to defend itself. In the past China just claimed some island in some river for itself, it didn’t negotiate with Russia first, just invaded and took the island. Russia bombed the island to smithereens along with the occupying Chinese on it, and then with negotiations Russia gave the island to the Chinese because Russia had no interest in the island. China has no manners, its like a child, everything is “mine”.

    And while China is extremely dependent on Globalization to progress, India is not in the same boat, and Globalization is going down the drain. Also the demographics thanks to the One Child Policy in the past is working against China, India will have more fighting age men available the longer the peace lasts. China has the next 5 years to achieve its ambitions else its opportunity is gone.

    So all India has to do is follow as Russia has done in Donbas, just stalemate matters and wait, time is on India’s side. Everyday that full scale war doesn’t break out is another day for India for fortify its position. Stalemate involves casualties, India has too many people as it is.

    “The two most powerful warriors are patience and time” – Leo Tolstoy

    All Chinese overseas work for China, just so India must leverage its people overseas. While the overseas Chinese are more on a technology acquiring mission, the Indians overseas are more into the money with CEO and IT jobs, so India must get them to send funds for the defense of India and so on.

    • LOL: showmethereal
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Malla
  11. There’s something a bit …hinky going on here. 20 Indian dead …..But (this from the BBC online):

    “Both sides insist no bullet has been fired in four decades, and the Indian army said on Tuesday that “no shots were fired” in this latest skirmish.

    How a clash that did not involve an exchange of fire could prove so lethal is unclear. There are reports that it was fought with rocks and clubs

    Local media outlets reported that the Indian soldiers had been “beaten to death”.”

    Who was it who said the 4th world war would be fought with rocks & sticks ? We seemed to have skipped the nuclear war 3rd W.W phase ….

    • Replies: @anno nimus
  12. Realist says:
    @anonymous1963

    Staying out of it makes sense.

    Therefore that will not happen.

    • Replies: @d dan
  13. Hoekom says:

    What are the Chinese fighting for. You conquer Tibet to protect your water sources and ensure you dont have a hostile force in your backyard. But why this?

    • Replies: @d dan
    , @ko
    , @DB Cooper
    , @gT
  14. DB Cooper says:
    @gT

    Check this out, here are some of the stories of the CEO and the best and brightest talents bullshit artists working in IT jobs in America.

    https://patriotmouse.com/category/h-1b-horror/

  15. d dan says:
    @Hoekom

    “You conquer Tibet to…”

    Tibet has always been part of China since Qing dynasty. China has more reasons to claim Tibet than whites to claim America, Canada, Australia, etc.

    “What are the Chinese fighting for … But why this?”

    Most of the disputed lands have traditionally been part of Tibet, and Tibet has never been part of India.

    So your question should be what are the Indians fighting for.

  16. d dan says:
    @Realist

    “Staying out of it makes sense.”

    Therefore that will not happen.

    Here (((they))) go again for NOT staying out:

    “… Pompeo and a senior congressional leader have reprimanded China for bullying behaviour towards India…”

    source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-china-idUSKBN2391XC

    • Replies: @Realist
  17. ko says:
    @Meena

    Thank God for Trump. And I pity this nation when he leaves office in 2024.

    I’d much prefer no immigration, and rather than reparations for Godless marxist BLM blacks who were never slaves, why don’t we give them each 50,000 dollars, take away their citizenship, and treat them to a one way ticket to Liberia without any chance of migrating back to USA?

    • Agree: anonymous1963
    • Replies: @KA
  18. ko says:
    @Hoekom

    They want Pakistan.

  19. Realist says:
    @d dan

    But China will, probably, tell them to shit in their hat.

  20. Kouroi says:

    A more insightful account on the situation between India and China is presented by the host of Indian Punchline blog: https://indianpunchline.com/1962-india-china-war-redeux/

    A retired long time Indian diplomat seems to put it all at Indian government’s feet…

  21. DB Cooper says:
    @Hoekom

    India should know its place and get the fuck out of South Tibet and Lakhda. The land of rapes has no business there. Have a cup of cow piss and go fuck yourself you filthy rapey ugly stinky creepy lazy dumb as a rock low IQ (average Indian IQ is 76) half evolved open defecating Hindoo monkey. By the way the lazy part is not from me, it is from the Dalai Lama. His Holiness has said openly many times that Indians are lazy.

  22. DB Cooper says:

    These fucking monkeys are polluting South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh) and Ladakh.

  23. Meena says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/19/world/asia/india-china-border.html

    An article from the establishment courting aggression against China disguised as fight between democracy liberalism and open society of India and the tyranny hegemony and oppression represented by China. Don’t the IMF WB and US want such a war . ? They do . But the glorification in the article about everything India feeds into the weakness presented as strength .

    This also feeds into the populism and polemical streak of Indian think tank and media . The delusion created by multiple forces including the fantasy of the Indian middle class help Modi RSS BJP government carry on the traditions of “ Yelstin era” started by BJP ,a party of shoppers and looters in mid 90s . That is the main function of the BJP – selling state asset for a song to those shoppers and looters . Rest are sideshow .

    By this bloody nose inflicted by China on BJP’s Shah and Modi, India at least has saved itself from another bout of frenzy feeding by these shoppers and looters half clad in saffron military uniform .

    • Replies: @Miro23
  24. DB Cooper says:

    Here is an article from a Pakistan newspaper slaming India’s use of rape as weapon of war in occupied Kashmir.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/2246283/1-pakistan-slams-indias-use-rape-weapon-war/

    Occupied South Tibet is the same. In fact there were mass protests against rape by Indians in occupied South Tibet in the past. Rape by Indians in occupied South Tibet is not even recognized as a crime because of the provision of the AFSPA, which is a law giving the state the power to detain or kill anyone with impunity. AFSPA is imposed on Kashmir and South Tibet.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Malla
  25. Escher says:

    Meanwhile, the fiercely anti-Muslim White House has quietly allowed four million Hindu Indians to emigrate to the United States as a way of countering the growing number of Muslims in our nation.

    Is this true, or has all the Indian immigration over the past several years been laid at Trump’s doorstep?

  26. Miro23 says:
    @Meena

    An article from the establishment courting aggression against China disguised as fight between democracy liberalism and open society of India and the tyranny hegemony and oppression represented by China.

    Agreed. The New York Times article is behind a pay wall, but it’s available here:

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/will-india-side-with-the-west-against-china-a-test-is-at-hand/articleshow/76484635.cms

    An interesting paragraph from the article:

    Everyone is more than willing, privately, to talk about what to do with China in a post COVID world, the diplomat said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “The ways that China has influenced that world order, can now more easily be discussed, as we are trying to figure out what the new world order is”.

    It could almost have been dictated by Henry Kissinger himself, There’s that “post COVID world” that resonates do much with that “post 9/11 world” and there’s that “world order” favourite expression.

    IMO Kissinger was very much involved with both 9/11 and Covid-19.

  27. vox4non says:

    I suspect that Modi (or someone in his inner circle) hoped to curry favour with Washington and did a little demo against China. However, even after the news of the death of Indian troops, and no word of support from Washington (plus the lack of condolences from Kathmandu or Dakka or Colombo), Modi has seemingly backtracked on his belligerence:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-20/modi-says-china-isn-t-occupying-indian-territory-after-clashes

    It would be tragic for India, that despite being a seemingly sovereign country, continues to be mentally enslaved and be a cat’s paw for other powers. Especially those who stand to gain from making large weapon sales.

  28. gT says:
    @Hoekom

    “Archibald cites scientific evidence that a solar minimum is upon us. We are just now reaching the end of a warm period. But this was no ordinary warm period. “From 1930 to 2010,” writes Archibald, “the world’s population increased by 250 percent while world grain production increased 392 percent.” In other words, we have lived through the greatest period of prosperity in man’s history; but now, due to changes in the Sun, our luck is going to run out.”

    https://jrnyquist.blog/2020/06/20/chinese-strategy-and-the-solar-minimum/#more-2510

  29. Washington’s efforts to “counter-balance China’s increasing military power” seem certain to end in war. Momentum is building in that direction, the problem looking intractable.
    https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/

  30. barr says:

    Modi has also said he will dispatch his defense minister to Moscow to discuss ways to “further deepen the India-Russia defense and strategic partnership”, in a not-too-subtle signal to Beijing that he may look to long-time ally Moscow for support. https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/modis-response-to-china-killings-under-heavy-fire/

    back and forth and back again will Russia dance ?

  31. @Chris Mallory


    “Two groups of Asians fighting each other. Not my monkey, not my circus”
    I notice guys and maybe girls with british last names can’t write without making statements like this , you people are dumb.

    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
  32. anon[368] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    India is trying to live up to its image of super power after being shown its place by China .

    “General Manager Upal Majumdar has been turning the Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee’s SAARC House, established by the late King Birendra, into an anti-Nepal information gathering center with intelligence and information technology for officers of the intelligence service and the Guard Commando Force.

    Former Tourism Minister Hisila Yami has given written permission to the Indian Guard Commando Force to come to Tribhuvan International Airport and former Prime Minister Dr Baburam Bhattarai has approved it from the Cabinet.

    According to a senior official of the National Investigation Department, a dozen officers of the Indian Research and Analysis Wing, (RAW) Service and the Guard Commando Force have been active against Nepal under the leadership of Upal Majumdar, General Manager of the Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee, with state-of-the-art weapons.

    According to a senior official of the National Investigation Department, a large number of armed Indian Research and Analysis Wing, (RAW) officers and a dozen officers of the Guard Commando Force have been staying at Hotel Soaltee. He said that while trying to inform Prime Minister Oli about this, Advisor Rajan Bhattarai obstructed him.

    An official of the National Investigation Department said, “King Gyanendra Shah has remained silent on anti-national activities at his hotel in the belief that the monarchy will be restored.” There is a danger of taking big security action even at that time.

    He emphasized that Upal Majumdar, was himself an Indian Research and Analysis Wing, (RAW) agent, under whose leadership the Indian Guard Commando Force could invade Nepal’s national security at any time through the SAARC House of Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee, founded by the late King Birendra.

    Remember that Upal Majumdar and the Indian Embassy in Nepal have been conducting regular meetings and activities against Nepal’s national security by making this hotel the center for the unification of Nepal’s Terai centric (Madhesi) parties.

    According to an employee of Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee, there is a large number of guard commando forces and weapons inside Hotel.

    Upal Majumdar an Indian national with a salary of around Rs 1 million, has been running regular hotel activities even when there are no customers.

    Employees of Crowne Plaza Kathmandu-Soaltee say that the failure of the Nepal Government to immediately control and investigate these activities against Nepal Rastra could be unfortunate for the country.https://www.nepal24hours.com/raw-and-indian-guard-commando-force-with-weapons-in-soaltee-crowne-plaza-nepal/

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  33. @animalogic

    funny, was thinking exactly same when hearing of the fist fight. thank goodness we cheated ww3.

  34. DB Cooper says:
    @anon

    I know. Delusion of grandeur is not a new thing for these fucking Hindoo monkeys. I wonder whether it has something to do with drinking cow piss. This article sums it up pretty good on Indians fetish on their country’s supposed imminent superpowerdom.

    https://oneworld.press/?module=articles&action=view&id=1536

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Lin
    , @Anon
  35. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    There is a lot of rancor towards India among the general Nepalese population on the other hand Indians at the core really think Nepal should be a part of India. But Nepal is not that easy for India to digest.

  36. Lin says:
    @DB Cooper

    Delusion of grandeur is not a new thing for these….

    Its not unusual for them attempting to project the image of an emerging superpower as a mental opioid. They simply ignore the ground reality. I”m not surprised that they import power generators from china(China is the world’s largest electricity producer) but why they can’t compete with china in making incense sticks? Really no jesting intended;they ignore their deep rooted problems.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
    , @Malla
  37. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    This article is written a decade ago by some clear headed Indian about Indian’s superpower fixation.

    https://openthemagazine.com/features/india/indias-superpower-delusions/

  38. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    By the way Hong Kong has a lot of these fucking Hindoo monkeys which is absolutely disgusting. I wonder whether the CCP can help the Hong Kong government do something about it. This will be hugely welcome by the people of Hong Kong, I can guarantee that. The best way is to evict these stinky filth back to their fucking shithole India.

    • Replies: @Escher
  39. Escher says:
    @DB Cooper

    Wow, Charlie. You’ve highlighted a lot of Chinks in India’s armor.
    The terrain favors the Indian army though, especially compared to the Slopes on the Chinese side.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @antibeast
  40. Lin says:
    @Escher

    The terrain favors the Indian army though, especially compared to the Slopes on the Chinese side.

    Any real data?
    ………..
    Some hard realities the Indian chest thumpers seldom mention:
    –New Delhi is only about 350 km from china border, within range of Chinese multi-barrel artillery rockets. Obviously that applies to many indian military installations along the border. Ballistic defense system will be lot more expensive than cost of those rockets.
    –The Assam(an indian state attached to rest of india by a narrow strip of land) ‘chicken neck’.
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/sy-400.htm

  41. Chinaman says:

    “PM Narendra Modi has made no secret of its growing hostility to both China “but “ It is of course a planned offensive by China” .

    Non- sequitur galore.

    For the idiots, Modi said the Chinese did not enter Indian territory which means it was Indians that were in Chinese soil…That’s your autopsy report.

  42. antibeast says:
    @Escher

    The terrain favors the Indian army though, especially compared to the Slopes on the Chinese side.

    India lacks the air force needed to enforce its tactical objectives in the Himalayas as proven by its need to buy more fighter jets. Here’s an expert analysis of the recent decision by India to buy Su-30s and MiG-20s from Russia:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/06/19/india-is-buying-the-wrong-russian-warplane-for-fighting-china/#730950e31281

    The Indian Air Force needs new fighters. It needed them pretty badly before the current conflict with China over a stretch of the Himalayas that both countries claim. Now it needs them even worse.

    Tom Cooper, an author and aviation expert, expressed his surprise that the Indian air force reportedly wants Su-30s and MiG-29s to meet its emergency requirement for a couple squadrons worth of jets. The Su-30, while seemingly impressive on paper, lacks performance and combat capability compared to Western models.

    “Your air force has got 200 to 250 Su-30s,” Cooper pointed out on Facebook. “Still, when you want to bomb a terrorist gang in the neighboring country, you need almost 40-year-old Mirage 2000s, instead.”

    Cooper was referring to the February 2019 clash between Indian and Pakistani forces over disputed Kashmir, roughly in the same region where Indian and Chinese troops would collide more than a year later.

    Indian Air Force Mirage 2000s initiated the combat with a precision strike on a suspected terrorist base inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan responded with F-16s. When the dust settled, the Indians had lost a single MiG-21 fighter.

    Those same Mirage 2000s had been decisive during an earlier conflict in Kashmir back in 1999. India’s Russian-made fighters had struggled to strike Pakistani bases high in the mountains. But a single coordinated strike by Mirage 2000s hauling Litening camera pods and laser-guided bombs succeeded in knocking out a key Pakistani headquarters.

    “In these attacks, the target was acquired through the Litening pod’s electro-optical imaging sensor at about nine miles out, with weapons release occurring at a slant range of about five miles and the aircraft then turning away while continuing to mark the target with a laser spot,” Air Force Magazine noted in 2012.

    Cooper’s point is that, for decades, the Mirage 2000 has been a more effective fighter in Indian service than the Su-30 has been. The Rafale, the French-made successor to the Mirage, likewise is among India’s better fighters. But the country has ordered just 36 Rafales.

    The Su-30 not only lacks the latest precision air-to-ground ordnance, it doesn’t perform well from the high-altitude air bases that support Indian operations along the so-called “Line of Actual Control,” the border between Indian and Chinese forces in the Himalayas. Diplomats drew that line as part of truce talks following a bitter, bloody border war in 1962.

    Kushok Bakula Rimpochee Airport in the Indian city of Leh supports Indian warplanes for operations over the Himalayas. The Indian army’s ongoing efforts to improve a road between Leh and an Indian outpost just a few miles from Line of Actual Control might be what incited the current clash.

    Kushok Bakula Rimpochee’s 9,000-foot runway is situated 11,000 feet above sea level. The Su-30 doesn’t work well in those conditions, according to Cooper. “They’re happy if the jet can launch while carrying two [air-to-air missiles],” Cooper wrote. “And brake-discs and tires must be replaced after every single sortie.”

    The lighter MiG-29 apparently functions better in Leh than the Su-30 does. But that doesn’t mean the old MiG is the right choice for India. The MiG-29s New Delhi plans to buy from Russia apparently are outdated models that Russian workers will refurbish before handing over. “They are simply not up to the task,” Cooper said of the MiG-29s.

    So why, when confronted with an encroaching Chinese army, does the Indian air force want Sukhois?

    It should be obvious. Indian firm HAL builds the Su-30s under license in India. Buying Sukhois funnels Indian money to Indian companies. Although, as Cooper pointed out, with adequate political will India could license the Rafale, too.

    “The experiences of last year should’ve brought the Indians to their senses,” Cooper said. “They could’ve bought more Rafales.”

    China doesn’t need to do anything as nothing seems to be working for Modi with the Indian air force as chaotic as the crowded streets of New Delhi. Whatever happened to Modi’s Pivot to the USA?

  43. Malla says:
    @gT

    China always wants to claim more territory for itself, so India must build more nukes to defend itself.

    That is B.S. All China perhaps wants is the territory of the old Qing Empire, nothing more. It is India which grabbed territory after it left the British empire in 1947. The Chinese do not want Himachal Pradesh or Delhi.

    Also the demographics thanks to the One Child Policy in the past is working against China, India will have more fighting age men available the longer the peace lasts. China has the next 5 years to achieve its ambitions else its opportunity is gone.

    India will be a demographic disaster due to automation. The Chiense PLA actually reduced their military numbers and made it more efficient and modern. You think they are dumb.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @gT
  44. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Part of it comes from an arrogance of history. We Indians feel that we are the only civilization, others all copied from us. All science and philosophy etc… started in ancient India. There was a time in 10000000 BC when we were flying around in ancient flying ships chanting Sanskrit mantra rap battles while all others lived in caves wearing bark and eating bark. Everything came from ancient India. So India has to be a superpower and Jagatguru (World Teacher, Jagat = World, Guru=Teacher)
    It is Brahmanical (very Jewish like) superiority complex feelings permeating to the rest of the population mixed with a milder form of Indian version of Afrocentrism of the lower caste populations(flying pyramids in Egypt with black astronauts, wakandaism, Yakub the black scientist creating White debils who stole our technology etc…). Since like all brown populations of the world, we have (diluted) black tendencies.

    A lot of this B.S. was first used in the independence struggle against the British Raj. This theory that before the British came, India was a paradise and every Indian was a millionaire and the British looted us & stopped us from being superpower. Of course this is non sense, the truth is opposite.
    Of course all such revolutionary movements in the world need lies to use the emotions of the people as weapons against the present power structure. But after the revolution succeeds these lies and fables generated to create emotions crystallize as “official history” which creates a sort of “popular history” among the people full of B.S and nonsense. This is common throughout the world. The revolution has to justify itself in “Official history” forever. Most people do not have the time and interest of doing their own research in historical events and to read things “from the other side” to come to an objective judgement. But some knowledge of history does picture our view of the world and such fables are liked by people, they massage the ego. Thus more preferred than bitter truths. But you can fool humans, you can fool animals but you cannot fool this universe. Truth is the truth.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Lin
  45. Malla says:
    @DB Cooper

    Pakistan uses the same weapon. Rape was used on a huge scale by Pakistani forces during the Bangladeshi independence struggle from West Pakistan.

  46. Malla says:

    If you ask me it seems like what the Hindu fundamantalist hypernationalist RSS wanted, they got in this latest Indo-China skirmishes. For years now I have been receiving Whatsapp messages from my low IQ hindutvadi relatives (unlike my more Westernized friends) that to boycott Chinese products and to uninstall Chinese apps. This skirmish mixed with the anger in the poor masses for China over COVID 19 finally gave them hypernationalist RSS what they wanted. Kindoff reminds me of the boycott of British cloth in the early 1900s. For the 100s of millions of Indians, China is the new British Raj.

    The truth is the Indian Govt is under constant pressure from the Indian masses especially the hypernationalists to do something about national enemy, China. It is the part of the Westernised elites who are talking about having an attitude of understanding with China and opposing the ban on Chinese products and apps. Due to the death of Indian soldiers and the country being in a hyper nationalist mode any talk about friendship with China in India would be suicide. But the Westernized elites are still trying to talk some sense in the hypernationalist masses but I do not know if that will work. The problem is the common man of India, the teeming millions of masses who absolutely hate China as national enemy and put the Govt under constant pressure to do something about the “Chinese question”.
    Modi may take orders from the West or not but even if the West were to disappear from the World , the main engine of anti-China feelings is the Indian population who look at China as an arrogant imperialist nation, a British Raj 2.0 so to speak.
    If the Chinese deep state thinks India is acting as a sepoy of the West or that the main engine of anti-China feelings is the West, they are way off and totally clueless. The main engine of anti-China feelings is the Indian masses in our 100s of millions.
    Similarly the Indian deep state thinks that the recent anti-India actions of Nepal are because Nepal is acting as a good sepoy for their masters, China. But both of them (India and China) are getting it wrong.

  47. @joe2.5

    Yeah he said many off things – but that was the major one. But then I realized maybe he meant because India still secretly has a caste system and serfdom – while China forced Tibet to get rid of it – which is why the Dalai Lama colluded with the CIA and had to flee.

  48. @Malla

    Not even fully… China gave up millions of square kilometers willingly since the CCP took over… Outer Mongolia – Russian Far East – Tajikstan – Kazahkstan – all received land from the CCP that was a part of Qing Dynasty. In fact the authorities in Taiwan used that for decades to deride Beijing as not the real successor government.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
  49. @antibeast

    I think that Forbes piece was more about goading India into buying western weapons rather than Russian ones. That writer is suspecting for even sourcing NDTV regarding the conflict.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  50. DB Cooper says:
    @showmethereal

    Also Myanmar. What happened is that the so called McMahon line (a diplomatic fogery that no Chinese government has ever recognized) stretches all the way from South Tibet to Burma. Even though the CCP does not recognize the so called McMahon line, it was willing to settle along the alignment of the so called McMahon line. According to Neville Maxwell, author of the India’s China War, when India annexed Tawang the PRC did not protest while the Nationalist government vehemently condemned India’s travesty (Just like in 1987 when India make South Tibet a state and named it AP the ROC issued a statement vowing never to recognize AP part of India). And in order to demonstrate its sincerity to India in conceding territories it settled its border with Burma along the alignment of the so called McMahon line in the 1950s. India probably took it as a sign of weakness and refuses to settle along the so called McMahon line and the disputes fester to this day. Had Nehru been less greedy South Tibet (so called AP) would legally be part of India.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  51. DB Cooper says:
    @showmethereal

    There is more to why Taiwan deride Beijing not a real successor government besides the territorial concessions. Any regime that paraded portraits of foreigners in their national day and force its people to pay homage to those foreigners is not a real legitimate government. And the CCP did exactly that. There was a time when huge portraits of Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Engels were hung in Tiannamen square but indigenous Chinese culture were considered politically incorrect. Adding insult to injury is that Stalin’s Russia is a land grabber of China. This shit is so disgusting that the CCP nowadays don’t do it anymore and probably want people to forget. But this is part of their history.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @showmethereal
  52. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    Part of it comes from an arrogance of history. We Indians feel that we are the only civilization, others all copied from us. All science and philosophy etc… started in ancient India.

    I notice the same thing with Arabs. They feel that theirs is the only civilization because they view Islam as the one true religion with all other religions and civilizations as false and inferior to Islamic Civilization which they created.

    • Agree: Malla
    • Replies: @Lin
  53. antibeast says:
    @DB Cooper

    There is more to why Taiwan deride Beijing not a real successor government besides the territorial concessions. Any regime that paraded portraits of foreigners in their national day and force its people to pay homage to those foreigners is not a real legitimate government. And the CCP did exactly that. There was a time when huge portraits of Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Engels were hung in Tiannamen square but indigenous Chinese culture were considered politically incorrect. Adding insult to injury is that Stalin’s Russia is a land grabber of China. This shit is so disgusting that the CCP nowadays don’t do it anymore and probably want people to forget. But this is part of their history.

    The CCP is considered by the ROC to be an illegitimate regime because its founding ideology of Marxism-Leninism is a foreign import from the Soviet Union which turned China into its satellite State from 1949 to 1960. Contrary to Western misconceptions, there was little support among the Chinese masses for Marxism-Leninism when the CCP started. It was only later during the Long March that Mao invented what came to be known as Maoism which was a revolutionary ideology based on a People’s War of National Liberation, applied first against the Imperial Japanese Army during WWII and later against the KMT during the Chinese Civil War. Mao’s Great Leap Forward which was based on the failed policy of “agricultural collectivization” originated in the Soviet Union not China. The CCP used to hang portraits of Stalin, Marx, Lenin and Engels who are so alien to the Chinese masses that they stopped doing it after the Sino-Soviet split in 1960. So alien in fact that Chinese masses didn’t understand who they were or what Marxism-Leninism meant. But they understood Maoism and its revolutionary ideology of waging a People’s War of National Liberation against the Imperial Japanese Army. That’s why the CCP grew tenfold during WWII because the Chinese masses knew the Imperial Japanese Army to be their enemy. And the rest, as they say, is history.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @DB Cooper
  54. Lin says:
    @Malla

    (To make it short..)
    –As I mentioned before,considering the lingual, ethnic, regional ‘diversity’of India..and that Hinduism is the biggest religion there, it’s expected that India nationalism became hindu nationalism. ‘arrogance of history’? Actually it has more to do with serious lack of pre-Mogul historiography and the nationalistic opportunity. The modern greeks don’t claim the chariot of Apollo a spaceship.
    –Xi doesn’t want war; Modi also understands India can’t afford a war with china but as you said he’s riding a wave of hindu nationalism he helped to promote and he’ll make the best use of it to his political interests. My gut feeling is that he’s not that hinduwadis.
    –The yanks want 1)China to divert resources from the pacific theatre 2)to sell more weapons to India [3)It’s highly unlikely the Indians will let the yanks to have military bases inside India]
    https://parstoday.com/en/news/world-i123380-india_approves_purchase_of_russian_fighter_jets_despite_us_sanction_threats.
    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/Data%20for%20all%20countries%20from%201988%E2%80%932019%20as%20a%20share%20of%20GDP.pdf
    –1)Chinese expenditure($261 billion) on military at 1.9% of GDP is lower than the 2.4% ($71 billions) of india’s and sure can afford more and also considered that Chinese military spendings,R&D, manufacture are lot more internally circulated. 2)Indian army manpower right now is the biggest in the world at 1.4 million while china’s is the 3rd at less than 1 million. Indian equipment spending per soldier is quite low. Indian govt will make a new version of the Russian AK47 to replace their indigenous INSAS rifles.
    –I fully understand indian sentiments; and the Indian nationalism is a complex matter and mis-directed. India, even with its high population density, actually has good agricultural growth potential. Why not just spend more efforts on growing food, create employment.. and improve education? Some years ago, India recognised ‘dual citizenship’, so even self-proclaimed nationalist upper caste elite have no qualms migrating to high income countries.

    • Replies: @Malla
  55. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    ideology of Marxism-Leninism is a foreign import from the Soviet Union

    Marxism was a foreign import into Russia as well.

    f waging a People’s War of National Liberation against the Imperial Japanese Army.

    I thought most of the heavy figitn against the Imperial Japanese forces was done by the Nationalist KMT forces.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @DB Cooper
  56. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    I think that Forbes piece was more about goading India into buying western weapons rather than Russian ones. That writer is suspecting for even sourcing NDTV regarding the conflict.

    Yes, I know. That’s why I ended my post questioning Modi’s Pivot to the USA. Modi wants to have his cake and eat it too. But the USA wants to eat his cake and eat him too by cutting India off from Russia. India’s purchase of more weapons from Russia would likely incur the wrath of the USA.

    • Agree: showmethereal
    • Replies: @showmethereal
  57. DB Cooper says:
    @antibeast

    “It was only later during the Long March that Mao invented what came to be known as Maoism which was a revolutionary ideology based on a People’s War of National Liberation, applied first against the Imperial Japanese Army during WWII and later against the KMT during the Chinese Civil War.”

    Don’t be silly. The CCP didn’t fight the Japanese. The KMT did. This is another nonsense the CCP is trying to propagate (there is a reason for all these WWII TV drama). The majority of the time the CCP was hiding in the vast hinterland of China (where you couldn’t even see a Japanese ghost) recruiting people into its ranks while the KMT were fighting the Japanese in big cities. At most the stupid eight route army was conducting some guerilla type operations which caused some nuisance to the Japanese army and is milked by the CCP for all its worth. The heavy lifting of fighting Japanese is the KMT, period. This is all well documented with ample amount of documents, films and other historic artifacts supporting the KMT history and the accounts were corrobarated from the Japanese side (from the Japanese perspective of course). I am sure the CCP totally whitewash this history and invented the fiction that the CCP fighting the Japanese instead of the KMT, for obvious reason. When Japan surrender the Nationalist army were decimated while the CCP members swelled in size. Fighting the Japanese my a$$.

    There are many well documented famous battles the KMT fought, one of them is the Battle of Taierzhuang.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taierzhuang

  58. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    I thought most of the heavy fighting against the Imperial Japanese forces was done by the Nationalist KMT forces.

    Yes and no. Most of the initial fighting was done by the KMT but Chiang decided to wage a war of attrition against the Imperial Japanese Army by moving his capital from Nanjing to Chongqing. The CCP meanwhile waged a “People’s War” using guerrilla tactics against the IJA in the Northeast which forced the Japanese into a stalemate. The IJA couldn’t move beyond their contested territory in the Northeast because the CCP guerrillas would cut off their supply lines to Manchuria. In frustration, the Japanese resorted to committing war crimes, the bulk of which occurred in the CCP-controlled Northeast during the infamous “Three-Alls” campaign launched by the IJA to break the will of the Chinese masses. The CCP adopted the Maoist People’s War of National Liberation against the IJA during this time of widespread atrocities which is why its membership grew tenfold. In contrast, the KMT gangster-capitalists resorted to war profiteering, looting peasants, contraband smuggling, opium trading, etc. Chiang couldn’t control the KMT gangster-capitalists whom he later blamed for his defeat by the CCP during the Chinese Civil War. He lost his best German-trained divisions during the initial fighting and had to rely on American-trained divisions later on. But he couldn’t get along with the Americans whom he personally disliked, preferring instead the Germans whom he hired after losing the Civil War and fleeing to Taiwan.

    Here’s a map of the extent of Japanese occupation during WWII:

    Note the striped areas which denote CCP-controlled territories which directly obstructs any kind of expansion of IJA-controlled territories (solid red).

  59. DB Cooper says:
    @Malla

    “I thought most of the heavy figitn against the Imperial Japanese forces was done by the Nationalist KMT forces.”

    You are absolutely right. The only thing the CCP did during these difficult times is to take advantage of the situation and grew its ranks while the government is fighting the Japanese invader. That the CCP today white washed this history is all the more disgusting but this is what you would expect. It would be weird if the CCP come clean to its people. History is written by the victors.

  60. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Actually it has more to do with serious lack of pre-Mogul historiography and the nationalistic opportunity. The modern greeks don’t claim the chariot of Apollo a spaceship.

    Agreed. But not pre Mogul but pre Islamic. The Mughals were not the first Islamic rulers. Before that there was the Delhi Sultanate with many dynasties, most of them Turkish. Babur our first Indian Mughal Emperor (then a prince from Uzbekistan) defeated the Delhi Sultanate to create the Mughal Indian Empire.

    Xi doesn’t want war;

    Of course China would not want war, it would not want to waste resources on war. Especially right now when China’s international influence has taken a hit thanks to the pandemic which (right or wrong reasons, very likely wrong) is being blamed on China.

    My gut feeling is that he’s not that hinduwadis.

    But Hinduvadis have influence in his party, the BJP.

    The yanks want 1)China to divert resources from the pacific theatre 2)to sell more weapons to India

    Good point except that it seems it is the Russians who are benefiting the most at the moment as far as weapons sales are concerned. Maybe the USA (& Israel) will get some orders too.

    Indian nationalism is a complex matter and mis-directed.

    It is not very complex dude. Is it misdirected. Definitely. But a lot of that has to do with the Indian Govt not telling the truth to its own people. For example most of us do not know that in 1962, we invaded Chinese territory with the “Forward Policy” of Nehru and how PR China was controlling itself in the beginning. About how Indian POWs were treated well by the PLA forces. Indeed Indians hate Nehru for being soft on China !!!! We also do not know that Indian Chinese were interned in concentration camps during that war like how Japanese Americans were treated in WW2. Most of us do not know the good things done by the British Raj. About how our own Govt bullies its small neighbours. About how we illegally captured kingdoms and peoples in the North East including Sikkim where we back-stabbed the trust of the good King of Sikkim.
    But nearly all Governments in the world lie to their own people.

    Russian AK47 to replace their indigenous INSAS rifles.

    Yeah INSAS by our DRDO was a flop.

    actually has good agricultural growth potential.

    We already along with PRC and USA are a major food producer and exporter in the World. However in India, agriculture suffers because as populations have grown, primarily in rural areas, the land getting divided among sons, has become small per farmer. Ofcourse there are some rich farmers too and they get a lot of economic benefits of being farmers (no tax, free electricity etc..) but until India has its own mega industrial revolution like the scale of China where a lot more rural people get absorbed into cities thus lessening population pressure in our farmlands, this problem will still persist. But for that the productivity of the workers has got to be increased, infrastructure developed, the Govt has to have a clear policy, legal infrastructure needs to be expanded (more judges and courts as cases takes years in India, we need to expand our British built legal infrastructure) etc… My friend’s Dad is a judge and he has to see cases per day 5 times the number that was originally recommended. Imagine that.

    • Replies: @Lin
  61. Lin says:
    @antibeast

    I notice the same thing with Arabs. They feel that theirs is the only civilization because they view Islam as the one true religion with all other religions and civilizations as false and inferior to Islamic Civilization which they created.

    A few words of caution:
    –The arabs have the historiographic tradition the ancient hindus lacked. Actually Alberuni, the first historian who wrote on pan-subcontinent scale was a muslim who accompanied a muslim conqueror king.
    –Acc0rding to muslims, ‘Islamic Civilization’ also included Judaic and early Christian Civilization.
    Jesus was a Prophet of Islam sent by Allah.
    –My impression many muslims are mentally depressed. Petroleum is said to be Allah’s great gift to arabs/muslims. Seems such a divine gift is depreciating, not to mention it’s being plundered by the west as well as by the arab monarchs. All religions are facing unprecedent upheavals

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @antibeast
  62. Malla says:
    @Lin

    ‘Islamic Civilization’ also included Judaic and early Christian Civilization.

    Agreed but Muslims believe that they have the final message from God (Koran) while Jews and Christians changed the message and Christians started worshiping a messenger of Allah as son of God. Thus Christians are misguided according to Islam and Jews deliberately changed the Torah, one of the worst things being usury or Riba (which I agree with, usury sucks). This having the final and true message from the creator can have its own psychological effects on a people.

    From Islam and the Psychology of the Musulman, authored by Andre Servier
    Chapter 14
    http://musulmanbook.blogspot.com/2005/11/ch-xiv-14-mind-of-musulman.html

    “FROM the point at which we have arrived in this essay, it is not impossible to understand and to explain the psychology of the Arab, and consequently of the Muslim. For the Muslim, whoever he may be, subjected for centuries to the religious law, in itself an expression of the Arab mind, has received so deep an impression from it as to have become totally Arabized. To understand the psychology of the Arab, the mechanism of his brain, is by the same token to account for the psychology of any given Muslim. The African Berber thinks on the same lines, and acts on the same lines as the Syrian, the Turk, the Persian, the Cossack, or the native of Java. All these people being Islamized think and behave as the Arab does.
    The religious law, of Arab inspiration, that has been imposed upon the Muslim world, has had the effect of imparting to the very diverse individuals, of whom that world is composed, a unity of thought, of feeling, of conceptions, and of judgment. The scale that has served to measure this thought, these feelings, etc., is an Arab scale; and consequently the minds of all Muslims have been leveled down to the stature of the Arab mind.

    The chief characteristic of the Arab, and therefore of the Muslim, is a fixed belief in his own intellectual superiority. Incapable as he is, through the barrenness of his mind and the poverty of his imagination, of conceiving any other condition than his own, any other mode of thought, he firmly believes that he has arrived at an unequaled pitch of perfection; that he is the sole possessor of the true faith, of the true doctrine, the true wisdom; that he alone is in possession of the truth, no relative truth subject to revision, but truth intangible, imperfectible [which cannot be corrupted] — absolute Truth.”

    …snip….

    “This conviction, which nothing can weaken, inspires the Muslim with an inalienable attachment to his traditions. Outside Islam there can be no safety; outside its law, no truth, no happiness. The evolution of foreign nations, the increasing accumulations of their knowledge, scientific progress, the improvements effected by human effort in material well-being leave him indifferent. He is the Believer, par excellence, the superior, the perfect Being.

    This conception, as has been truly remarked, (2) divides the world into two parts: Believers and Infidels. The Believer is in a state of perpetual war with the Infidel, and this right, this duty of eternal war can only be suspended: “Make war,” says the Holy Book, “on those who believe neither in God nor in the last judgment, who do not regard as forbidden what God and his Prophet have forbidden, on those who do not profess the true religion, until they, humbled in spirit, shall pay tribute with their own hands.”

    (2) Snouck Hurgronje, Muslim Law

    The Muslim, convinced of his own superiority, will not suffer any teaching. ”

    …snip….

    “Intellectually, the Muslim is, nevertheless, a paralytic; his brain, subjected in the course of centuries to the rough discipline of Islam, is closed to all that has not been foreseen, announced and specified by the religious law. He is, therefore, systematically hostile to all novelty, to all modification, to all innovation.

    Whatever exists has been created by the will of the Almighty. It is not for man to modify His work. If God had wished that what exists should be different, he would have made it so, irrespective of all human volition. To act is thus, to some extent, to misunderstand the divine decisions, to wish to substitute human desires for them, to commit an act of insubordination. Such a conception puts all progress out of the question; and, in fact, immobility is the essential characteristic of every Muslim community.

    As has been remarked, “the Muslim, remaining faithful to his religion, has not progressed; he has remained stationary in a world of swiftly moving modern forces. It is, indeed, one of the salient features of Islamism that it immobilizes in their native barbarism the races whom it enslaves. It is fixed in a crystallization inert and impenetrable. It is unchangeable; and political, social or economic changes have no repercussion upon it.” (4)”

    • Replies: @Lin
  63. Lin says:
    @Malla

    Many might not understand indian agricultural potential:
    –Chinese land area is 3 times than of india but only 15% of Chinese land are arable compared to 60% of india. India also has more rain and generally warmer than china. Chinese and indian grain production are respectively about 640 million tons and 280 million tons. Chinese meat consumption per capita isn’t much at about 60 kg/yr but decent.(Euro average fig. I think is 80kg)
    –Holland, a major food exporter, has higher popn density than india.
    https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/01/the-netherlands-is-the-second-largest-agricultural-exporter-after-us/
    …………….
    india can easily challenge US as a food exporter if the Indians work on it.

    • Thanks: Malla
    • Replies: @Malla
  64. Malla says:

    The arabs have the historiographic tradition the ancient hindus lacked. Actually Alberuni, the first historian who wrote on pan-subcontinent scale was a muslim who accompanied a muslim conqueror king.

    This is very true. The first folks in India to record history were the Muslims. Pre Islamic history is very vague and mixes seamlessly with mythology and chest thumpings. But the first folks to research pre Islamic history of India in a scientific way were the Europeans especially officers of the British East India Company.

    For example Mills writes

    It is allowed on all hands that no historical composition existed in the literature of the Hindus; they had not reached that point of intellectual maturity, at which the value of a record of the past for the guidance of the future begins to be understood. “The Hindus,” says that zealous and industrious Sanscrit scholar, Mr. Wilford, “have no ancient civil history.” Remarking a coincidence in this characteristic circumstance between them and another ancient people, he adds, “Nor had the Egyptians any work purely historical.” Major Rennel says, that, founded on Hindu materials, there is no known history of Hindustan, nor any record of the historical events of that country prior to the Mahomedan conquests; and since that period, it is not to Hindu, but Mahomedan pens that we are indebted for all our knowledge of the Mahomedan conquests, and of the events which preceded the passage to India, by the Cape of Good Hope. An inclination at first appeared among [61] the warm admirers of Sanscrit to regard the poems Mahabharat and Ramayan, as a sort of historical records. A more intimate acquaintance with those [62] grotesque productions has demonstrated the impossibility of reconciling them with the order of human affairs, and, as the only expedient to soften the deformities in which they abound, suggested a theory that they are allegorical.

    On the geography and chronology, as parts of the literature of the Hindus, I shall express myself in the language of Mr. Wilford. “The Hindus,” says that celebrated Hindu scholar, “have no regular work on the subject of geography, or none at least that ever came to my knowledge.—I was under a necessity of extracting my materials from their historical poems, or, as they may be called more properly, their legendary tales.” In another place he says, “The Hindu systems of geography, chronology, and history, are all equally monstrous and absurd. The circumference of the earth is said to be 500,000,000 yojanas, or 2,456,000,000 British miles: the mountains are asserted to be 100 yojanas, or 491 British miles high. Hence the mountains to the south of Benares are said, in the Puranas, to have kept the holy city in total darkness, till Matra-deva growing angry at their insolence, they humbled themselves to the ground, and their highest peak now is not more than 500 feet high. In the Calica Purana, it is said that the mountains have sunk considerably, so that the highest is not above one yojana, or five miles high.—When the Puranics speak of the kings [66] of ancient times, they are equally extravagant. According to them, King Yudhishthir reigned 27,000 years; King Nanda is said to have possessed in his treasury above 1,584,000,000 pounds sterling in gold coin alone; the value of the silver and copper coin, and jewels, exceeded all calculation: and his army consisted of 100,000,000 men. These accounts, geographical, chronological, and historical, as absurd and inconsistent with reason, must be rejected. This monstrous system seems to derive its origin from the ancient period of 12,000 natural years, which was admitted by the Persians, the Etruscans, and, I believe, also by the Celtic tribes; for we read of a learned nation in Spain, which boasted of having written histories of above six thousand years.”

    Whoever, in the present improved state of our knowledge, shall take the trouble to contemplate the proofs which we possess of the state of knowledge and civilization among the Hindus, can form no other conclusion, but that every thing (unless astronomy be an exception) bears clear, concurring, and undeniable testimony to the ignorance of the Hindus, and the low state of civilization in which they remain. That such a people are masters of the science of astronomy to a degree which none but nations highly cultivated have elsewhere ever attained, is certainly [89] not to be credited on any chain of proof that is not entire.

    Of the fitness of the proof to maintain any such conclusions as have been founded upon it, an idea may be formed from this; that Mr. Bentley, who has paid great attention to the books of Hindu astronomy, says they are all of modern date, and their pretensions to antiquity founded only on forgery. As his moderate knowledge of mathematics, however, and even the inelegancies of his style, have been sarcastically employed to throw discredit upon his conclusions, it is of importance to add that the two mathematicians whose reputation for profundity seems to exceed that of all their cotemporaries, Laplace, and an eminent ornament of our country, not only reject the inference of the great antiquity and perfection of the Hindu astronomy, but, from the evidence offered, draw a conclusion directly the reverse; viz. that this science is in the very same state of infancy among the Hindus with all the other branches of knowledge. The Surya Sidhanta is the great repository of the astronomical knowledge of the Hindus. It is on the authority of our own countryman I am enabled to declare, that this book is itself the most satisfactory of all proofs of the low state of the science among the Hindus, and the rudeness of the people from whom it proceeds; that its fantastic absurdity is truly Hindu; that all we can learn from it is a few facts, the result [90] of observations which required no skill; that its vague allegories and fanciful reflections prove nothing, or every thing; that a resolute admirer may build upon them all the astronomical science of modern times; but a man who should divest his mind of the recollection of European discoveries, and ask what a people unacquainted with the science could learn from the Surya Sidhanta, would find it next to nothing.

    The progress of knowledge, and the force of observation, demonstrated the necessity of regarding the actual state of the Hindus as little removed from that of half-civilised nations. The saving hypothesis, however, was immediately adopted, that the situation in which the Hindus are now beheld is a state of degradation; that formerly they were in a state of high civilization; from which they had fallen through the miseries of foreign conquest, and subjugation.

    This was a theory invented to preserve as much as actual observation would allow to be preserved, of a pre-established and favourite creed. It was not an inference from what was already known. It was a gratuitous assumption. It preceded inquiry, and no inquiry was welcome, but that which yielded matter for its support.

    To this purpose were adapted the pretensions of [145] the Brahmens, who spoke of an antecedent period, when the sovereigns of Hindustan were masters of great power and great magnificence. It was of importance to weigh these pretensions; because the rude writers of rude nations have almost always spoken of antecedent times as deserving all the praise with which their powers of rhetoric or song could exalt them. If the descriptions of antiquity presented by the Brahmens bore the consistent marks of truth and reality, a degree of intrinsic evidence would be attached to them. If these descriptions flew wide of all resemblance to human affairs, and were nothing but wild unnatural fictions, they would be so far from proving an antecedent state of knowledge and civilization, that they would prove the reverse. And, had the Hindus remained fixed from the earliest ages in the semibarbarous state, it is most certain that the Brahmens would have given to us just such accounts of antiquity as those we have actually received at their hands.

    As the Hindus have enlightened us by no record of antecedent events, and we thus have no immediate proof of their state of civilization, in the times that are past, the only sure ground of inference is the laws and institutions which they framed, the manners they adopted, and the arts and sciences to which they attended. If these great circumstances were at variance with the existing state of society, but adapted to one more advanced, the inference would certainly be a probable one, that to a period when society was in that improved condition, they really owed their birth. But in regard to the Hindus, their laws and institutions are adapted to the very state of society which those who visit them now behold. They are laws and institutions which, so far from importing any more perfect state of society, seem entirely inconsistent [146] with it; such as could neither begin, nor exist, under any other than one of the rudest and weakest states of the human mind. As the manners, the arts and sciences of the ancient Hindus are entirely correspondent with the state of their laws and institutions, every thing we know of the ancient state of Hindustan conspires to prove that it was rude.

    What the Brahmens fable, about an universal monarchy, and the celestial glory of this or that pretended hero, can therefore be regarded as no evidence of the facts which they assert. The propensity of the Hindus to exaggeration is every where displayed. “The officers of government here,” says Dr. Buchanan, “had the impudence to inform me, that according to Chica Deva Raya’s valuation of the country which belonged to Nandi Raj, it contained 32,000 villages…..The account here given seems to be one of those gross exaggerations common in India, and is entirely contradicted by the accounts which I received from the revenue office at Seringapatam.” Journey through Mysore, &c. ii. 97. In other places the native officers told him lies, contradicted by the very facts presented to their and his eyes, at the moment of delivering them. “Among the natives, however,” he remarks, “similar departures from the truth are common.” Ibid. p. 136, 137. Vicramaditya is indeed, expressly, at times asserted, not to have been King of all India, but only of a certain portion of it in the west. “The author of the Vicrama-Upac’hyana says, that he was a powerful prince, in the west of India, and possessed of the countries which we find, afterwards, constituting the patrimonial territories of the Balahara, which included Gurjjarasht’ra (or Gujjarat) with some adjacent districts.” Essay on Vicramaditya, &c. by Captain Wilford, Asiat. Res. ix. 14

    Dr. Buchunan found the propensity general, to deceive him in their accounts both of their religion and history. See Journey through Mysore, &c. ii. 76, 79, 80. “The Brahmens,” he says, “when asked for dates, or authority, say that they must consult their books, which may be readily done; but when I send my interpreter, who is also a Brahmen, to copy the dates, they pretend that their books are lost.” Ibid. i. 335. All information, he says, from the Brahmens, usually differs most essentially as derived from different individuals. Ibid. ii.

  65. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Chinese land area is 3 times than of india but only 15% of Chinese land are arable compared to 60% of india.

    But since China is 3 times in size, 15% makes it quite close to India’s arable land but still smaller. Anyways what I have heard is that China has had some success in greening some of its deserts. Made some kind of cellulite rich paste which converts sand into soil. So maybe China will have more arable land in the future.

  66. Lin says:
    @Malla

    Thanks. The source you quoted has exactly elaborated what I said before:
    Geopolitically (sunni) Islam is THE pillar and vehicle of arab tribal/ethnic power.
    Simultaneously..
    –Prophet Mohamed sure was the greatest ever arab hero. No contest.
    –It’s the only major pillar of arab civilisation, unlike the euros have Greco-Roman as well as Christian cultural components, Chinese have a host of philosophies, Persian still remember their Zoroastrian past(I think)…
    –There has been very little success in ‘de-arabizing’ islam OR put in this way(derogative lexicals avoided), the arabs/muslims in many ways are bounded by the walls of orthodoxy.
    …….
    Change is unavoidable, like it or not.
    BTW, I’m a serious fan of the DUNE books(written by Frank Herbert, a cousin of Joe McCarthy, probably the greatest sci-fi novel of the past few decades) which incorporates a certain future religion called Buddislam
    A new Dune movie and TVseries are coming I heard.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Malla
  67. @DB Cooper

    Indeed – though I wonder what the ROC stance is now that the DPP is in power in Taiwan. I know they still claim the islands in the South China Sea and just recently again affirmed the claims against Japan over the Diayou/Senkaku…. But I haven’t heard them speak lately on that issue. I think the DPP will claim they have nothing to do with the actual mainland and is only going with islands…??? I know the KMT still goes by the constitution of the ROC and still officially claims mainland China.

  68. @DB Cooper

    Yeah good point. There is plenty the CCP did that they regret – especially as relates to Chinese traditions. That’s why they spent a lot of money after the Cultural Revolution to try to rebuild a lot of sites that were destroyed by the Red Guards. Also there are things like the Dragon Boat Festival. It was just celebrated… But it had been banned at one time. The political jostling still happens. I was just watching a show produced from Canada called “Confucius was a Foodie”. Good program – but I can see the political bias toward Hong Kong and Taiwan. The host – a westerner who I’m sure has little clue – linked an episode with the Dragon Boat Festival. She lamented that it was banned by the mainland government. I was waiting for her to say “but it was reinstated some years ago” – but that part never came. Politics…

  69. @antibeast

    Good points… But to your last sentence… It seems the US is so worried about China surpassing it that if they have to let India buy Russian weapons just to get India to back it in a fight against China – it seems they will. Just like they had to get over Turkey and the S400. They cut Turkey off from the F35 but Turkey didn’t care. They want to buy SU-57 LOL… But the US still “needs” Turkey in NATO. This is what happens when you have “too many pots on the fire”….

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @A123
  70. antibeast says:
    @Lin

    The arabs have the historiographic tradition the ancient hindus lacked. Actually Alberuni, the first historian who wrote on pan-subcontinent scale was a muslim who accompanied a muslim conqueror king.

    That’s because Hinduism lacked a literary tradition as the Vedas were transmitted orally. Until the Muslim conquests in the 12th century, Hindu India didn’t have written records of their literature and history with the exception of the Maurya Empire (323 BCE – 184 BCE) which gave Hindu India the Arthaśāstra, the earliest text written in Sanskrit on the political philosophy based on Hinduism which later influenced the Manusmṛiti, the Hindu Code of Law, which in turn influenced the Hindu Kingdoms in Cambodia and Indonesia. The Maurya Empire became Buddhist after King Ashoka converted to Buddhism. His Edicts of Ashoka contained his political philosophy based on Buddhism which later influenced the areas of modern-day Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    The Maurya Empire is considered by many Indian historians to be some kind of a golden age because it was the largest indigenous Empire as well as the source and origin of the earliest texts in Hinduism and Buddhism. Indian nationalists who want to decolonize modern India from the post-colonial effects of the British Raj should be looking at the Maurya Empire as the historical basis of an Asian identity for modern India. Hiding behind Hindu chauvinism won’t make India great again.

    • Agree: Malla
  71. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    It seems the US is so worried about China surpassing it that if they have to let India buy Russian weapons just to get India to back it in a fight against China – it seems they will. Just like they had to get over Turkey and the S400. They cut Turkey off from the F35 but Turkey didn’t care. They want to buy SU-57. But the US still “needs” Turkey in NATO.

    The USA wants India to stop buying weapons from Russia as part of Modi’s Pivot to the USA. The USA doesn’t want Turkey to buy weapons from Russia either because Turkey is a member of NATO. That’s how the USA operates: you buy weapons from us and we get to tell you what to do.

    Modi is playing a loser’s game: he wants India to pivot to the USA but that entails stabbing Russia in the back. That’s because the USA treats its customers not as partners but as vassals. Now that the USA has imposed a blanket ban on H1B visas, the Indian ITO/BPO industry is getting hit the hardest from Trump’s America First agenda, effectively shredding the so-called Indo-Pacific partnership between the USA and India.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @Malla
  72. antibeast says:
    @Lin

    There has been very little success in ‘de-arabizing’ Islam.

    Sorry you’re wrong. The Persians de-arabized Islam by contributing Persian art, architecture, literature, philosophy, science, technology, commerce and industry to Persianized Islam which later influenced Mongolic and Turkic Islam in Central and South Asia. The Chinese likewise de-arabized Islam by synthesizing Hui Islam from its Arabic, Persian and Turkic versions. Southeast Asians also created their own versions of Islamic cultures adapted to their tropical lifestyles.

    arabs/muslims in many ways are bounded by the walls of orthodoxy.

    That’s true only for Arabs, in my observation, because their greatest cultural and political achievements were all based on Islam. So it’s almost impossible for an Arab to become something else outside of Islam.

  73. Lin says:

    You’re correct but you didn’t read carefully the parentheses

    Geopolitically (sunni) Islam is THE pillar and vehicle of arab tribal/ethnic power.
    …….. Persians still remember their Zoroastrian past(I think)…

  74. A123 says:
    @showmethereal

    But the US still “needs” Turkey in NATO.

    Why does the U.S. need Turkey?

    It seems rather the opposite, not only does the U.S.not need Turkey. The U.S. does not want Turkey. Let us review the lengthy list:

    -1- Erdogan tried to trick the U.S. into a bloody fight by creating a kill sack between Turkish and Syria lines. This failed when Trump moved the U.S. deployment South. No one believes the “protect oil” myth. The move was disengagement from Erdogan’s impending folly.

    -2- The more Southern footprint in Syria does not need Incirlik Air Base for support.

    -3- Turkey is unreliable as a partner for NATO/U.S. equipment.

    -4- Turkey is interfering with key regional stability initatives. Most notably the EastMed pipeline that would supply energy to Greece, Italy, and Southern Europe.

    -5- Turkey is backing the Muslim Terrorist Brotherhood in Libya, which could result in a shooting war with an actual U.S. ally, Egypt.

    -6- Erdogan is openly stating he will further defile the Hagia Sophia, an important Orthodox Christian holy site.

    It is not solely the U.S. — Erdogan’s misbehaviour is upsetting almost everyone. For example, Russia: (1)

    The head of Russia’s Orthodox Church Patriarch Kirill said he was “deeply concerned” by the moves, describing Hagia Sophia as “one of the greatest monuments of Christian culture”.

    “A threat to Hagia Sophia is a threat to the whole of Christian civilisation, and therefore to our spirituality and history,” the Orthodox church leader said in a statement.

    Turkey’s future looks quite grim and lonely.

    PEACE 😇
    _______

    (1) https://www.barrons.com/news/russian-orthodox-leader-warns-turkey-over-hagia-sophia-move-01594027224

    • Replies: @showmethereal
    , @anon
  75. @antibeast

    True… I laughed at the tweet exchange between Trump and Modi on the 4th of July. It was pathetic on Modi’s part. As you said – India relies heavily on those H1b visas. I don’t get why Indians don’t get that whites will NOT see them as equals.

    • Replies: @antibeast
    , @Malla
  76. @A123

    The fact you laid out all those things but the US still wants to have Turkey on it’s side says plenty. The main reason being is Turkey has a similar strategy to the US – which is to use jihadists to attempt to destabilize governments it doesn’t like.

    • Replies: @A123
  77. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    Modi’s problems are just starting with the West now treating him as a “pariah” in light of the passage of the controversial CAA bill:

    https://thewire.in/rights/anti-caa-activists-us-indian-americans

    Some analysts see a resurrection of the old anti-Modi “Coalition Against Genocide”, which prevailed in the US Congress to deny him a visa while he was chief minister of Gujarat.

    Given the wealth, power and influence of the Western-influenced Indian elites who act as Fifth-Columnists in India, Modi will be eaten alive before he gets to have his cake and eat it too. His ill-conceived “Pivot to the USA” is now backfiring on him on all fronts.

  78. A123 says:
    @showmethereal

    The fact you laid out all those things but the US still wants to have Turkey on it’s side says plenty.

    “Want” and “Need” are two very different things.

    The U.S. is not going to go out of it’s way to make the currently poor US-Turkey relations worse. However, Erdogan is going to get somewhere between nothing and zilch unless he changes his behaviour. And, that is highly unlikely.

    Erdogan’s regime cannot last forever. At this point the exercise is keeping the door open so that the U.S can work with his eventual successor.

    PEACE 😇

  79. anon[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @A123

    Orthodox is not going to buy into any traps set by the Zionists. Zionists have been desecrating and obliterating much more important and relevant Orthodox history in the city of Bethlehem .

    • Replies: @A123
  80. Anon[719] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    You’ve posted at least 10 times in this thread. Are you a Paki sand nigger? That would explain the anti-Hindustani animus.

    • Replies: @anon
  81. Lin says:

    You’ve posted at least 10 times in this thread. Are you a Paki sand nigger? That would explain the anti-Hindustani animus.

    Its a thread specific on the recent sino-india clash. one can assume the posts would be ‘pro-india’ or ‘pro-china’ or ‘off-topic’; what’s so surprising someone posted 10 times? I posted 8 times including this one. Is it necessary to use derogatory words like Paki sand nigger to vent your malaise?

  82. A123 says:
    @anon

    You have been listening to Muslim propaganda again.

    Islam is the only side destroying Christianity in Bethlehem.

    PEACE 😇

  83. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Buddislam huh, that is interesting. But Islam and Buddhism are so opposite of each other. Buddhism in its pure form is atheistic while Islam is total submission to the will/ message (Koran) of God.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Anon
  84. Malla says:
    @showmethereal

    I don’t get why Indians don’t get that whites will NOT see them as equals.

    LOl This is laughable. Indians in general hate Whites and have a superiority -inferiority complex with Whites. Indians have realised that the West is run by Jews. it is upper caste Hindus and Jews coming together initially for a global anti-Islamic alliance and even a anti-White nationalist alliance at the local level.

  85. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    It is not simple as that. India surely wants to pivot to the USA for many reasons but China itself is one reason why it wants too. India finds it hard to deal with China alone and Russia is a good friend of China too. Secondly there has been a long term movement behind the scenes to wean India off Russia/ USSR which includes Indian immigration tot he USA and USA India Software Industry cooperation. One of our most outspoken Indian Nationalist Subramanyam Swami is a CIA agent. Ex PM Vajpayee had openly called him so.
    However many top Indian bureaucrats are still very weary of the USA, still preferring Russia. It comes from the Soviet days when the USA was an ally of Pakistan and the USSR was an ally of India. So it is much more complicated.
    Russia remains very very popular among the Indian masses indeed much more than the USA. Russia is the most trusted friend we have according to Indian popular opinion. China is of course very very unpopular, enemy of the nation but not as much as Pakistan. USA is mildly popular. Japan is very popular because of technology as well as the Japanese support for Subhash Chandra Bose against British Empire during WW2 as well as Japan defeating Russia during the early period of the last century was seen as Asian power defeating an European one (which was very rare). Germany is quite popular too mostly because of technology.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  86. Lin says:
    @Malla

    Islam and Buddhism are so opposite of each other

    –No such thing as ”a religion in it’s purest form”.
    –(Sunni)Islam geopolitically is a vehicle of arab/arabised power but the arabisation diminished with the distance from arabia.
    –Like it or not, religions keep changing though speed varies. Gay Christianity, Gaislam, Lesbislam were unthinkable a few decades ago but now happen.The motto biblical verse of the gay Christians: Psalm 23:4– “Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.” .
    –Seems some mullahs consider Buddha a pre-Mohamad prophet
    https://tricycle.org/magazine/monks-met-muslims/
    …………..
    Behold !! Message from Profit Linus:
    In the not too distant future, the memory and consciousness of the dying, saints and sinners alike, will be uploaded to a cyber paradise inside a supercomputer network where they will live happily and interactively ever after. Immigration language requirement will be waived as the language interpretation SW Babel 1o get its latest service pack. Jesus, Buddha… will be welcome as residential guests of honour…

    • Agree: Malla
    • Replies: @Malla
  87. @australianbrainsize1325cchehe

    The last name come from the French, though my ancestors left France in 1067.

    I am dumb for not giving a damn what two nations on the other side of the world do? Hey, you Aussies can go police them. Keep the US and American tax money out of it.

  88. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Hey about this India China thing since we are on this topic, there are certain emotional factors involved in the Indian side which I would like to share.
    First thing we Indians considered our big population a reason for our backwardness. But when China with a bigger population zoomed ahead, it created a big inferiority complex feeling in Indians. If not population then what? The British looted narrative is falling apart now population theory falls apart too. So “Are we monkeys’. Hence Indians look to China’s rise with jealousy.

    Secondly Indians cannot accept the rise of China because simply China did not need “superior Indian talent” to rise. China’s rise destroys “our superior talent” narrative. See Indians believe Western countries are prosperous because of superior Indian talent going there. This is idiotic. USA became a superpower and technological leader way before 1965 when Indians started going in large numbers. But fables which massage the ego is believed. Hence Indians would support USA against China because “USA was built by Indian talent” and China by developing without our “superior talent” torpedoes this ego massage theory. Hence the “Chinese can only copy from the West theory” common amongst Indians because when China copied from the West they are not saying China copies ideas from White people but from superior Indian talent.

    Thirdly, about a decade back most of my Indians friends were chanting and chest thumping this theory that Indians are high IQ superior people and thus would dominate software while the lowly Chinese (who are dumb with no originality and only copy unlike us superior talent Indians) being a “worker” race would dominate manufacturing. There was this mantra that Indians will take care of software, worker race Chinese the hardware and dumb greedy Americans (with no culture) would only consume. of course the question that came in my mind then was how long Americans just consume? Will they not run out of money?
    Anyways this Indian software vs Chinese manufacturing B.S and this push on mostly IT kept a large part of the Indian masses poor and benefited the middle classes only. That is because manufacturing can create more employment among the masses than IT. Also nations go through stages Agriculture/ Mining etc…—> Manufacturing–> Services. Indians because of arrogance and caste tendencies against manual work tried jumping the second manufacturing stage and hence the country remained a dump compared to China. All major nations starting from England itself from the Industrial Revolution became prosperous by concentrating on manufacturing.
    Anyways, soon after all this brouhaha about us being super IT geniuses unlike lowly worker race China was running around among my friends, I came across the results of the IBM ACM contests where Chinese teams (and Eastern European teams) repeatedly trounced out Indian teams in software contests. Of course our chest thumping media never mentioned this and most Indians do not know this. Most Indians would faint if they came to know that the copy cat worker race Chinese had better computer engineers than our “super talent”. And even teams from the famed IITs (Indian Institute of technology) underperformed in these contests. Many of my relatives are IITians and they are some of the most arrogant mu fus around. My ex IITian cousins behave since they are from the IITs, that their brains are made of gold, their shit smells like roses and people of the world beg them to come to them to use their superior brains and talent for them. Very Brahmanical attitude. So when I saw those results, I was shocked.

    So recently when Chinese apps started taking over the Indian mobile software market, Indians just could not take it. “Those worker race Chinese are beating up in software too, Impossible” shouted the nation in their hearts. software was our space, of superior Indian talent with original high IQ thinking, how could lowly robotic Chinese beat us insoftware too. That is one reason why there have been calls for banning Chinese mobile apps in India since a long time and the Govt of India finally banned it officially after this fiasco. I think the aim is to give some “breathing space” to local Indian apps. However many of our apps are themselves copied from Western/Chinese apps (who is the copy cat now?). A app like Mitron (rival to tik tok) was so bad that even Google play store had to remove it and now it comes out that this pathetic app was bought by an Indian sofware company from a Pakistani software company!!!!

    • Replies: @Lin
  89. Lin says:
    @Malla

    The notion ‘Chinese love face’ or fear of ‘losing face’ is often misunderstood as desire to show off. It’s main theme rather is to observe certain hierarchy; a typical example: A person should not publicly criticise his/her elders or senior colleagues because the latters would ‘lose face’. Modesty is a highly valued Confucius virtue. There’s a Chinese proverb:’Admitting humiliation is courage.’
    Malla bhai, among the internet Indians I met, you have courage.
    ……….
    Inferiority complex is NOT unusual among 3rd worlders(Chinese included). The notable difference:
    –Chinese govt and people understand the importance of keeping quiet while working hard.Ron Unz wrote a famous article ‘How Social Darwinism Made Modern China’. I didn’t read the whole thing but there’s another aspect: The Chinese nation, particularly after after 1949, was a geopolitical Darwinist survivor, considered that the People’s Republic has been under the threat of 1 or 2 superpowers for most of the time since 1949. China is under tremendous stress to perform.
    –The indian situation is the result of a combination of..
    **The caste system which is detrimental to national cohesion. If the upper caste Indians look down on ‘worker race chinese’, they just ignore the existence of 100s of millions of poor Indians and their un/under employment problem.
    **The ‘democracy’ system they copy from the west doesn’t work well for them. An observable is that the politicians tend to be demagogues. Sanjay Gandhi was the only politician who tried to enforce a 2 children/couple population policy and that resulted in the Congress party losing an election in the 1970s while Subramaniam Swamy a few years ago claimed the huge indian population is an unexpected blessing and Indians will become a superior species because of some cosmic force.
    https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/a-new-economic-agenda/article5944375.ece
    ………
    I wish the Indians good luck, as I said India has great agricultural potential and it might not be too late to try more drastic demographic policy to control the indian population to around 1 billion by 2100.
    BTW, I think nursing care for the elderly will be handled by robots, so don’t worry.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Malla
  90. anon[171] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    You know man/tranny/woman /whatever — RSS -BJP post millions of lies through the bots and through the active computer gapers everyday anti muslim anti Pakistan anti Nepali comments and spin the tales of China India encounters .

  91. Lin says:
    @Lin

    More on the ‘face’ thing
    –I find that the poorer but not destitute Chinese would be more anxious on the image thing while the more educated/successful ones would bother less. It seems to be kind of universal human psychology though the exposition could vary. Some examples:
    **The ashkenazi jews are said to have high if not the highest average IQ but the average jews seldom brag about it (for obvious reasons) but ethnic groupings said to be of low IQ would label hereditary IQ as racist.
    **Economists/govt of many 3rd world countries often like to present their GDP in PPP terms because PPP GDP look bigger to them; China is a notable exception.

  92. Anon[351] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    Islam means submission . Submission to God . Koran gives lot of leeways . It has some minimum demands and it has very few maximalistic demands .
    Islam is very explicit and clear in it acceptance of Jews Christian and of the followers of John whose place in heaven are as safe as that of Muslims provided they follow the creeds of the respective religious principles as laid down in their own books .
    Buddhism doesn’t believe in the existence of God but believes in recycling of souls through reincarnation until someone decides that recycling is not necessary . Having said that Buddhism slowly elevated Buddha to the status of the God ( not God’s prophet , not to the recycled free soul ) In India ,it also extensively borrowed from Hinduism eventually losing the ideological separation and gaining nothing in return from Hinduism ( it couldn’t make Hinduism accept the nonviolence ,caste free society or opening the door of secular and religious education to all ) In Tibet ,this religion took on a dangerous turn for degradations ,corruption ,exploitation , serfdom and bondage labor .

    I am not privy to the requirements of being a Buddhist . Not sure whether it requires one to be atheists .
    But endless recycling of soul until it is purified is an idea whose parallel can be seen in the idea of Hinduism which promises better prosperous entitled place in the social hierarchy in next birth provided one has followed the rules and met the expectations that describe the current incarnation or present life.

    • Replies: @Malla
  93. Malla says:
    @Lin

    The notion ‘Chinese love face’ or fear of ‘losing face’ is often misunderstood as desire to show off. It’s main theme rather is to observe certain hierarchy; a typical example: A person should not publicly criticise his/her elders or senior colleagues because the latters would ‘lose face’. Modesty is a highly valued Confucius virtue. There’s a Chinese proverb:’Admitting humiliation is courage.’

    Thanks. Humility is the most wise policy in most situations.

    Malla bhai, among the internet Indians I met, you have courage.

    Thanks bud. Of all the Chinese I have met on the internet, you seem to understand India remarkably well. I suspected you have lived in India for years, but apparently you have not.

    If the upper caste Indians look down on ‘worker race chinese’,

    It is more of superiority complex feelings mixed with inferiority complex feelings. I say, both complexes are wrong. It was the same with the British. Upper caste Indians considered the British as “mleccha barbarians” who ate beef. Nearly as bad as untouchables. But when we were exposed to high British & European culture (there were a lot of British aristocrats running India) as well as British technology, there was massive inferiority complex feelings too. So a strange combination of superiority and inferiority complex feelings intertwined. This is common in solipsistic and narcissistic populations. We Indians (on AVERAGE, there are exceptions) are very self obsessed like Jews. I see similar emotions being formed towards the Chinese. Not surprising, similar economic techniques are used as well. 100 years back it was “boycott British goods”, today it is “boycott Chinese goods”.

    The ‘democracy’ system they copy from the west doesn’t work well for them

    Interestingly many British administrators themselves had this view. Lord Lytton (not the Lytton of the famine, his son who also worked in India) was of the opinion that transplanting British style democracy on India would be wrong as British democracy was formed out of the unique struggles and historical forces and culture of the British people. And even though India and Britain were joined by Empire and deep cultural/ civilizational exchanges, he believed, Indian democracy or any form of government should naturally evolve out of the Indian people, out of Indian culture/ civilization. It were actually our Western educated freedom fighters like Nehru, Patel etc… who wanted a British style democracy for India.

    Democracy might have worked in India but feudal forces have overtaken the institution. For democracy to work properly, you need a homogeneous population with some basic level of education/modernisation. Both are missing in India. India is too diverse which means people vote for candidates of their group (Marathas vote for Marathas, Muslims vote for Muslims, Yadavs vote for Yadav candidates–voteblocks) which beats the whole purpose of democracy where you vote for the best candidate on performance and honesty. It all ends up as managing voteblocks and numbers. As the West becomes more diverse, democracy will fail there too.
    Also a large chunk of the Indian population is backward and feudal.

    Sanjay Gandhi was the only politician who tried to enforce a 2 children/couple population policy and that resulted in the Congress party losing an election in the 1970s

    Very true. Sadly he passed away quite early in life. Wish he would have lived a long life and his policy would have been implemented. Man, you know a lot about India, I at times suspect you are actually an Indian writing as a Chinese. LOL.

    Subramaniam Swamy a few years ago claimed the huge indian population is an unexpected blessing and Indians will become a superior species because of some cosmic force.

    Subramanyam Swamy is a CIA agent pushing Hindutva and trying to push India more towards the USA. Hates the Nehru-Gandhi family which could be because the Nehru-Gandhis have been traditionally pro Soviet/ pro Russia. It is likely he was involved in the assassination of our ex-PM Rajiv Gandhi, the last PM who was resisting Western interests. Israel too was involved as they were very closely involved in the Sri Lankan Tamil crisis.
    They say such B.S. because many in India believe such B.S. about cosmic forces and whatnot.

    I wish the Indians good luck, as I said India has great agricultural potential and it might not be too late to try more drastic demographic policy to control the indian population to around 1 billion by 2100.
    BTW, I think nursing care for the elderly will be handled by robots, so don’t worry.

    Thanks & Agree.

  94. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    One of our most outspoken Indian Nationalist Subramanyam Swami is a CIA agent.

    You mean Subramanian Swamy, the guy who denies the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) because it denigrates Indian cultural identity as an ancient Hindu nation?

    Attempts at Hindu debilitation are also being made through falsification in history texts adopted for curriculum in the education system, to disconnect and disinherit the contemporary Indian from the past glory of Hindu India. The intrinsic Hindu unity has been sought to be undone by legitimizing such bogus concepts as Aryan-Dravidian racial divide theory [AIT], or that India as a concept never existed till the British imperialists invented it, or that Indians have always been ruled by invaders from abroad.

    Methinks Western liberals are hostile to him because he’s an Indian nationalist who promotes the Hindutva ideology of the BJP/RSS.

    Japan is very popular because of technology as well as the Japanese support for Subhash Chandra Bose against British Empire during WW2 as well as Japan defeating Russia during the early period of the last century was seen as Asian power defeating an European one (which was very rare).

    Subhash Chandra Bose was a pan-Asianist just like Sun Yat-sen who had sought to form an alliance between the Republic of China and Imperial Japan before WWII. During WWII, Thailand also sided with Imperial Japan against the West as did the Indian National Army (INA) headed by Bose. After WWII, the Japanese chose Thailand as the site of its offshore industrial base for its auto and electronics manufacturing industries, partly because the Thais never developed any kind of hostility towards the Japanese, unlike other Southeast Asian nations.

    • Replies: @Malla
  95. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    You mean Subramanian Swamy, the guy who denies the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Yup he is the guy. Hindutva has been pushed by Zio elites before like the shady Theosophical Society a century and half before which played a big part in the birth of Hindu fundamentalism. Theosophists like Madam Blavitshy and Colonel Olcott came up with the Out of India theory as against the more scientifically true Aryan Invasion Theory. Gandhi was hugely influenced by them and the term “Mahatma” (translated meaning “Great soul”) was given to him by Irish theosophist Anne Besant. I think the aim is to use India “for something” and Hindutva is just a vehicle to set the national psychology for whatever the purpose globalist elites have.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  96. Lin says:

    ‘Out of India’ was there without Subramaniam Swamy. It was a fanciful attempt to:
    –Lessen the north-south divide in india against ‘Aryan migration/invasion’
    –To instill a sense of pride, like that crackpot ‘historian’ P N Oak claimed Rome actually was originally Rama and the ancient hindu empire once included London…..
    ………….
    Humans have/had been invading and migrating since time immemorial. Case in point, the southern part of china adjacent to Vietnam was populated(probably thinly)by Australoid people (similar to those in Philipines I guess) and there was a ‘mongoloid/northern Han invasion’ on that region. Some of the aborigines migrated further south and most of the rest merged with the hans. Some minority tribes are still there.
    **It was recorded in ancient Chinese history treatises.
    **The vanquished were demanded of one thing, became part of that Chinese dynasty. Southern Chinese are mostly of northern ancestry.
    **I read the northern Vietnamese are of 70% Chinese ancestry.
    ……….
    The main difference in the ‘aryan invasion’ was that the conquerors wanted to stay segregated at the top through the caste hierarchy and that’s the reality that hurts and also denied by the hindu nationalists.
    BTW, ‘Out of India’ is partly correctly, as I said people have been moving around:
    **The australoids(autralian aborigines) migrated to Australian en route the subcontinents. The dravidians are ‘australoids’.
    http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Proof-of-ancient-Australia-India-link-20130115
    **The gypsies originally came from the subcontinent.
    …………

    Sun Yat-sen who had sought to form an alliance between the Republic of China and Imperial Japan before WWII

    I haven’t heard of that but it’s true that Sun Yat-sen cheered the 1917 czar toppling Bolshevik revolution and the slogan during his last years is ‘To learn from Russia’.
    BTW, Sun Yat-sen, the most revered non-communist political figure in modern Chinese history was a Christian. His religion was seldom an issue. He once vandalized a temple(buddhist?)idol in his home village to show there was no supernatural spirit inside.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  97. Malla says:
    @Anon

    Thanks.

    Islam is very explicit and clear in it acceptance of Jews Christian and of the followers of John whose place in heaven are as safe as that of Muslims provided they follow the creeds of the respective religious principles as laid down in their own books .

    Thanks, I was not aware of this. But Islam does consider Christianity as deviation from the truth as Christian worship of Jesus as son of God is unacceptable in Islam. According to Islam Jesus was the just a messenger. According to Islam, even Adam the first human and prophet was a Muslim. And God sent 200000+ prophets to Earth but all their messages got corrupted, humans started worshiping the Prophets as Gods, the prophet were meant for a particular time period or region. Only Mohammed is the final prophet for all mankind till judgement day. It may be according to Islam, many pagan Gods and Buddha were just prophets but humans falsely started worshiping them as Gods.

    In India ,it also extensively borrowed from Hinduism eventually losing the ideological separation and gaining nothing in return from Hinduism

    Even Hinduism borrowed enormously from Buddhism. Adi Shankara who was extremely anti-Buddhist ended up Buddhismifying Hinduism. Indeed Hinduism changed enormously from its struggle with Buddhism. Hinduism readily absorbs the concepts of enemy religions and uses those concepts as a weapons against the enemy religion. Today’s Hinduism is highly Christianified too.

    In Tibet ,this religion took on a dangerous turn for degradations ,corruption ,exploitation , serfdom and bondage labor

    Mahayana Buddhism more common in North East Asia left India a little later than Therawada Buddhism common in South East Asia and Sri Lanka. So Mahayana Buddhism did get a little “polluted” by Brahmanism by the time it left India. Did not happen with Theravada Buddhism to that extent. But Tibetan Lama Buddhism, being close to India was even more polluted by Brahmanism. I am not saying that Lama Buddhism and Mahayana Buddhism in general do have great ideas and concepts but the Bramanical elements need to be purged clean. Just like how Christianity & maybe Islam needs to be purged off elements of Judaism. The Tibetan Lamas used the same trick on the Tibetan population like what the Brahmans used on the Indian population. “If you do not kiss our ass, in your next birth you will be born as a very horrible being, born lower in order of things. ” That is how the people were controlled.
    Indeed Tibetan pre-Buddhist Bon religion had an influence on Puranic Hinduism, Tibet is quite close to the Ganges area of India where Puranic Hindusim (as against much older Vedic Hinduism) was born. Remember the abode of Hindu Lord Shiva is in Mount Kailash, in Tibet which was also a holy place for Bon religion as well as Tibetan Buddhism. And Tibet and India (mostly Bengal) influenced each other in Tantra, whose left hand path is outright black magic. In some ways similar to practical Taoism.

    Buddha wanted a solution to the question of suffering of all living beings. And he came with the conclusion of recycling of souls till one becomes sunya or zero. The Brahmins found this idea dangerous as it reeks of atheism and was a big threat to their priestly business. So they changes it to recycling of souls till one becomes one with the Godhead (Parmatma or Param Atma, Param=Prime, Atma=Soul), like how a tiny drop of mercury (your soul) submerges into huge glob of mercury (God). That is what Lord Krishna (avatar of Hindu God Vishnu) said in the Bhagvad Gita created by Brahmins. So they made the atheistic ideology theistic to save their holy business.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anon
  98. Anon[351] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    “ But Islam does consider Christianity as deviation from ..”

    Technically anyone accepting in oneness of god and in judgment day is Muslim according to Islam which means submission to God . So anybody can be Muslim . But Muslim has shown or fallen to same degradations that enveloped other religions . Buddhism Jainism and Christianity – all lost the openness and acceptance of diverse thinking or even life style .
    Muslims used to challenge disagree criticize prophet of Islam but today one can’t imagine doing it. Prophet of Islam made it clear that he had two powers one secular given / agreed by people and another religious given by god . Later was not questionable .

    “Deviation from “their own religion ,— so Mother Theresa is fine but not Bush jr .

    Person who was not Muslim was apparently told by Islam prophet that she would go to heaven for her kindness to a thirsty dog in a hit summer day.

    • Agree: Malla
  99. Anon[351] • Disclaimer says:
    @Malla

    “ But Islam does consider Christianity as deviation from ..”

    Technically anyone accepting in oneness of god and in judgment day is Muslim according to Islam which means submission to God . So anybody can be Muslim . But Muslim has shown or fallen to same degradations that enveloped other religions . Buddhism Jainism and Christianity – all lost the openness and acceptance of diverse thinking or even life style .
    Muslims used to challenge disagree criticize prophet of Islam but today one can’t imagine doing it. Prophet of Islam made it clear that he had two powers one secular given / agreed by people and another religious given by god . Later was not questionable .

    “Deviation from “their own religion ,— so Mother Theresa is fine but not Bush jr .

    Person who was not Muslim was apparently told by Islam prophet that she would go to heaven for her kindness to a thirsty dog in a hit summer day.

  100. Malla says:
    @Lin

    The australoids(autralian aborigines) migrated to Australian en route the subcontinents. The dravidians are ‘australoids’.

    Very true. However the Dravidians were themselves Australoid Caucasoid hybrids before the Aryans came. The pure Australoids were hunter gathers in India who came via Middle East and from India who went to Australia/ Papua New Guinea via South East Asia. Then a population related to Iranian farmers invented wheat farming and created the Indus Valley Civilization which was one the major civilizations of the ancient world. They eventually mixed with the hunter gatherer Australoids. Earlier it was believed that Iranian neolithic farmers of the fertile crescent brought Wheat and barley farming to India but new evidence from Rakhigari site shows that a branch of the Iranian neolithic farmers came to India first and independently started wheat farming. The Indus valley population was 75% Iranian Neolithic farmers and 25% native Australoid Hunter gatherers. On the other hand rice farming was brought to Indian subcontinent by South East Asian migrants normally called the Cambodian Rice farmers.

    Before the Aryans from Central Asia came to South Asia, we had the Indus valley civilization on the North Western edge of Indian subcontinent (today’s Pakistan) where we had a mixed population of Iranian farmers and Australoid hunter gatherers and also Cambodian rice farmers in the Eastern Subcontinent maybe mixing further with Australoid tribals and Tibetan Burmans in the Himalaya regions. The Mongoloid Tibetan Burmans were called Kiratas by the Aryans and were respected as brave warriors unlike the black aborigines whom they looked down upon. About 10 to 15% of South Asian population DNA is Mongoloid (Tibetans+ Cambodian Rice farmers) along with Caucasoid and Australoid.

    When the Aryans pastoralists came, invaded or migrated, they first came to Iran and eventually became the Persians. Due to religious disputes, a branch of them, the Vedic Aryans came to India. What religious dispute? For example in Vedic Hinduism, Good Gods are ‘Devas’ and while Bad Gods are ‘Ashuras’, similarly God in Lithuanian is Daevos and in Latin Deus and the English word ‘Divine’ or ‘diety’. But the Persian Aryans had it opposite, the Good Gods were ‘Ahuras’ (‘s’ in sanskrit becomes ‘h’ in Persian, so Ashura=ahura) while the bad gods are ‘Devas’. Hence after Zoroaster came, their main God was Ahura Mazda.
    The Aryans were genetically the most closest to today’s Northern Slavic (Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs) and Baltic (Latvians, Lithuanians) peoples. Then two things happened, a part of the Indus Valley people went further deep inside the Indian subcontinent mixing further with the Australoid hunter gatherers to form the ASI, or ancestral South Indians. Some Indus valley peoples stayed behind and mixed with the Aryans to form the ANI (Ancestral North Indians). The ANI and ASI further mixed to form the South Asian population. So South Asians are mix motley of Australoid hunter gatherers, Iranian wheat farmers, Cambodian rice farmers, Tibetans and Aryan chariot and horse riding, cattle owning, milk drinking pastoralists. Before the Aryans came, there was no horse or chariot in India. And hence the many weird similarities in between ancient Vedic Hindu mythology, Persian mythology, Hittite (Turkey) mythology and most pre Christian European mythologies including Norse, Baltic, Celtic etc…. And the strange similarities in the languages of North Indians/ Sinhalese (Hindi, Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati, Punjabi, Kashmiri etc… ), Persian/ Dari Afghan, Caucasus mountain languages like Armenian and most of the languages of Europe including English, German, Russian, Latin, Greek, Polish, Swedish, Portuguese etc….
    For example Snow in Russian is ‘Zima’ while in Sanskrit it is ‘Hima’, hence Himalayas which means “abode of Snow”. “Sthan” in Sanskrit means “place/ stationary place” hence Uzbekistan, Hindustan, Pakistan. In English we have ‘to stand’ (in place).
    While the Dravidian languages like Tamil are closest to the language spoken in the Indus Valley region. And they have some strange relations with Middle Eastern religions maybe because of their origins in the Fertile Crescent. Like the Middle Eastern God ‘Baal’ and the South Indian God King term ‘Bali’ like Mahabali. Mahabali was a God king in southern region of Kerala who was sent underground by the Brahmanical God Vaman, an avatar of Lord Vishnu (like Krishna and Ram both avatars of Vishnu). Could be showing the eventual Brahmanical conquest of that region.
    Also, I had read somewhere that a goddess worshiped in Bengal (Eastern South Asia) called Tara is of Chinese origins. A Bengali scholar had researched and found this out.

  101. @antibeast

    Get your facts straight. There were no ‘terror camps’ and also no Indian ‘strikes’ on terror camps. Indian jets entered Pakistani airspace, dropped a fuel payload whilst hastily retreating and did not strike any (non-existent) terror camps. Next day India lost a jet to a Pakistani cross-border attack and the Indian pilot was shown across the media.

    India has made up entirely fabricated stories of ‘surgical strikes’ on Pakistani land since 2016.

    • Replies: @antibeast
  102. antibeast says:
    @Malla

    Yup he is the guy. Hindutva has been pushed by Zio elites before like the shady Theosophical Society a century and half before which played a big part in the birth of Hindu fundamentalism. Theosophists like Madam Blavitshy and Colonel Olcott came up with the Out of India theory as against the more scientifically true Aryan Invasion Theory. Gandhi was hugely influenced by them and the term “Mahatma” (translated meaning “Great soul”) was given to him by Irish theosophist Anne Besant. I think the aim is to use India “for something” and Hindutva is just a vehicle to set the national psychology for whatever the purpose globalist elites have.

    I doubt if the City-of-London/Wall Street Globalist Elites would support Hindutva which is an anti-Western Indian Nationalist ideology. The guy who assassinated Gandhi was a follower of Hindutva.

    Here’s a talk given by Swamy on “Who are We? A Quest for National Identity.”

    In this #IndicTalk, Dr. #SubramanianSwamy discusses the need for a national identity for India. He tells us that how India is one of the oldest continuous civilizations in the world. While all other civilizations were wiped out, India still stands. Giving the examples of Persia and Greece, he says that these countries were converted to either Islam or Christianity but India is still about 82% Hindu and that is nothing short of a miracle. But even then, due to some policies followed by leaders of independent India, the youth of today’s India is in an identity crisis, wondering who he is.

    He says that every great nation in the world has a clear idea about its national identity. Giving the example of the U.S., he says that while anyone can live in the U.S. the defining national identity of the U.S. is White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant Christian. He argues a similar clarity about national identity in the case of India.

    He differentiates between nationality and citizenship. He says that anyone, following any religion, can be a citizen of India, be it a Hindu or Muslim. But when it comes to national identity of India it is essentially Hindu. Taking many witty forays into present crisis and historical journey of India, he argues for a strong national identity of India, based on Hindu culture and ethos.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Malla
  103. Lin says:
    @antibeast

    he says that … the defining national identity of the U.S. is White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant Christian. He argues a similar clarity about national identity in the case of India.
    He differentiates between nationality and citizenship. He says that anyone, following any religion, can be a citizen of India,…… But when it comes to national identity of India it is essentially Hindu.

    No need to comment in details the rhetorics above in view of the recent BLM/Antifa events in US;obviously
    **He’s a demagogue
    **He tries to copy the israelis template
    **Wouldn’t work. Jews&arabs =>Cain&Abel; Muslims&hindus => Yahweh vs golden calf
    ………..
    The hindu-muslim divide didn’t happen overnight; saving forceful conversion suggested by RSS, I suggest forming a new civilizational envelope like ‘Hindislam‘ to accommodate both

  104. antibeast says:
    @Hussain Agha

    Get your facts straight. There were no ‘terror camps’ and also no Indian ‘strikes’ on terror camps. Indian jets entered Pakistani airspace, dropped a fuel payload whilst hastily retreating and did not strike any (non-existent) terror camps. Next day India lost a jet to a Pakistani cross-border attack and the Indian pilot was shown across the media.

    Those are excerpts from a Forbes article.

  105. Malla says:
    @antibeast

    I doubt if the City-of-London/Wall Street Globalist Elites would support Hindutva which is an anti-Western Indian Nationalist ideology.

    The globalist elites support things which on the surface does not seem likely they would support. Thesis-anti thesis.

    From his speech

    While all other civilizations were wiped out, India still stands. Giving the examples of Persia and Greece,

    China still stands too. Unless Communism is like Christianity or Islam for him.

    he says that while anyone can live in the U.S. the defining national identity of the U.S. is White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant Christian.

    I do not think that identity will last very long.

    But when it comes to national identity of India it is essentially Hindu.

    This is all a Brahmanist trick. Absorb your enemies into Hinduism.

  106. Malla says:
    @Lin

    Sun Yat-sen, the most revered non-communist political figure in modern Chinese history was a Christian. His religion was seldom an issue.

    I read somewhere that he was only a nominal Christian and became a Christian only so that that would make him popular with the West (maybe against Japan). I do not know how true that is.

  107. gT says:
    @Malla

    First you were claiming that the Indians never really wanted to get rid of colonialism, BAD. Now you are claiming that China is correct and India wrong, WORSE. How can you sell your own country of origin out like that? Indians are a weird bunch, must be too much of that vegetarian diet, its like Indians are only able to be house niggers.

    And as others have said in the past, China wants to claim its own Qing (Manchu is Chinese?) Empire back, what if Russia wants to claim its old empire back (includes Finland), what if Britain wants to claim its old empire back, what if the Ottomans claim their old empire back, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the French? Should we just accommodate these claims of old empires? Should Vietnam just allow China to claim islands right next to Vietnam, should the Philippines just allow China to claim islands right next to the Philippines?

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @d dan
    , @antibeast
    , @Malla
  108. Malla says:
    @gT

    How can you sell your own country of origin out like that?

    I am not selling anything. Writing facts. We did invade P.R. China in 1962 when China was down, if was suffering from famine and there was a fiasco with ROC Taiwan. We saw the opportuinity and sneaked in. We got beaten, the Henderson-Bhagat report is still classified by the Indian Govt. Those who have had a peek know that we invaded Chinese territory with our “Forward Policy”. A U.S CIA report says the same. But to explain the defeat to the Indian population and not lose face we claimed Chinese leadership said “Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai” (Indians Chinese Brothers Brothers) and backstabbed us by a surprise attack. And that B.S is believed by all Indians to this day.

    Also you forget that P.R. China had border LAND disputes with all its neighbours even the USSR and even had border confrontations with nearly all of them. But all those disputes (except two) have been solved and the P.R. China has been quite magnanimous in solving those disputes, to the chargin of the ROC KMT nationalists who would have been even more assertive and less magnanimous than the CCP. The two LAND border disputes yet to be resolved by P.R. China, yup India and Bhutan. Why the Kingdom of Bhutan? because India treats Bhutan as a colony and takes care of its external affairs. Bhutan has to seek India’s permission on many external affairs issue. This arrangement was what the Kingdom of Bhutan had with the British Crown, but India renewed it. In the pre-WW2 days it was normal international behaviour to have protectorates like this and why in these days of UN do we have a situation that one sovereign country has to seep permission from another in its external affairs?

    And as others have said in the past, China wants to claim its own Qing (Manchu is Chinese?) Empire back, what if Russia wants to claim its old empire back

    What you ignore, my dear gT is that the border claimed by India is the old British Raj border which Qing dynasty China had never accepted even during the Raj. The post 1947 Indian Govt considered itself as a fighter against White colonialism anywhere in the world, a leader of the Third World (while Indian soldiers were using all forms of brutality to suppress the Nagas of North East India who never wanted to be part of India to begin with). Our history books teach us manufactured B.S. about evul British, but when it comes to borders, when it comes to our benefits we want the borders of the old British Raj/Empire. How convenient!!!!

    Anyways what I meant was that the claims on both sides are very small, just a few kms here, just a few kms there. The major problems are Akshai Chin and the Indian State of Arunachal Pradesh or South Tibet. China considers it legitimate historical claim. China is not and does not wish to claim anything else in India but millions in India believe that China wants the whole country, thanks to the Indian media.

    • Agree: antibeast, showmethereal
    • Thanks: d dan
  109. d dan says:
    @gT

    “And as others have said in the past, China wants to claim its own Qing (Manchu is Chinese?) Empire back,…”

    Another idiotic non-Chinese trying to distort China history and Chinese claim. You are an obvious China-hater and ignorant troll.

    Saying a land is part of China since Qing is different than trying to claim border based on Qinq or even to claim Qing empire back. Beijing has been part of China since Zhou dynasty but nobody is trying to use Zhou border for China today. This is a simple concept, but it may still be too difficult for stupid people like you.

    And yes Manchu is Chinese. You don’t like it? Good.

    • Replies: @gT
  110. antibeast says:
    @gT

    Should the Philippines just allow China to claim islands right next to the Philippines?

    So what if the islands are next to the Philippines? Vietnam claim those islands too. Geographical proximity does not imply territorial sovereignity.

    By the way, the PCA did not rule in favor of the Philippines, as misreported in the Western media. What the PCA ruling says is that ALL the features in the Spratly Islands are mere “rocks” not “islands” which effectively disqualifies ALL five claimant nations from exercising their territorial rights to those “rocks”. Since none of the Spratly Islands qualify as “islands” as per the PCA ruling, the Philippines is claiming that China is violating its maritime rights by occupying “rocks” within its 200-nm Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). But there is a catch here as the Philippines is occupying Thitu Island which is 280nm from its baseline and outside of its 200-nm EEZ. Thus the Philippines itself is violating the PCA ruling by occupying Thitu Island which is a mere “rock” as per the PCA ruling.

    In short, the PCA ruled that those islands are mere “rocks” — ipso facto — there is no dispute over territorial rights only maritime rights in the Spratly Islands. If the Philippines accepts the PCA ruling that there are no “islands” in the Spratly Islands, then it can not claim territorial rights to Thitu Island which is OUTSIDE of its 200-nm EEZ as it does today.

    • Replies: @showmethereal
  111. Malla says:
    @gT

    First you were claiming that the Indians never really wanted to get rid of colonialism, BAD.

    Read the Montague-Clemsford report if you can find it written by Samuel Montague, the Secretary of State for India during the 1910s period and Lord Clemsford who was Viceroy of India, I think.
    In the report, Montague laments sadly that “the vast majority of the Indian population is happy and content with the British Raj Govt of India but the British Raj will itself create Indian nationalism which will be good for India in the long term.” In other words, the British Raj dissolved itself by its own will with time. All that “Independence Struggle” was just window dressing.

  112. Meena says:

    India was fragmented along many frontiers , all of them domestic in nature and foreign in creation. British occupied a large land mass that was controlled on the top of the pyramidal system by a viceroy which was kept in position by army garrison complexes located in most of the districts . Below the viceroy was 2/3 of the land divided among princely states who offered uniited loyalty to the raj . Below them was the owners of the large land known as fiefdom or zamidari . Below the zamidar India had farmers and small retailers . Employees paid by the raj worked in the railways ,mines,
    ports and the standing army and the police . There were overlaps but not in military police or railways . Taxation used to move from every source to the raj and then to Britain. Military was still divided along religious and linguistic lines .
    The awareness of independence as an evolving idea even by 1920 has not reached India’s masses . Sparks of it would visit India from 1914 but it was mercilessly suppressed by Congress of Ghandhi until very late .
    Burgeoning business classes were divided . They enjoyed rail transport and security but didn’t like the internal control and tariff or control on export.
    There was always that element composed of supremacy ,righteousness,United Bharat as determinant of foreign relations and domestically there were the concept of caste ,anti science attitude , insistence on historical Brahminical continuity from remote past ,and fear of the minority composed of Sikh,Muslims, and later by fear of separation of lower caste from Brahmincal ,fear of labor and farmer ‘s rebellion against the upper caste who were enjoying their perks with collusion with the Raj.in the minds of Gandhi. RSS or BJP don’t differ much from Gandhi in that sense . Even the possible usefulness of the role of violence in Indian political discourse was not ignored but was selectively employed by Gandhi.

    Imperialism was not that far from the Ghandihian consciousness . Ghabdhi ‘s singular obsession with his religion based restructuring of Raj prevented him from creating an unified awareness of being Indian based on equality ,secularism, and open free capitalism or alternate model of socialism .

    India is still stuck there at that 1914 Ghandhi model.

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  113. Malla says:
    @Meena

    Taxation used to move from every source to the raj and then to Britain.

    British looting via heavy taxation happened only in the earliest period of British EIC rule in Bengal, which was the first province conquered by the EIC in India and also the richest province. Many directors of the East India Company wanted to make a quick buck in Bengal and go back to England and join the rich aristocrats (whose wealth in those days came from Britain itself). But when they returned to England they were hated and called ‘naboobs’ (a variation of Indian Nawab or King/Lord), and considered greedy pigs who made money on the backs of Bengali farmers. Indeed many British MP in the British parliament spoke against them and their ruthless exploitation of Bengali farmers. Many of them like Robert Clive faced lengthy trials in London over corruption in British Bengal. Even Governor General Warren Hastings faced trials in London on this account because he had forced some Indian kings out of money. However must add that Warren Hastings was very pro Indian, loved Indian culture and wanted to do a lot for native Indians, maybe he became Indian in his corruption. Indeed eventually the directors of the British East Indian Company started stamping out these corrupt practices and Robert Clive was sent a second time to India to achieve this.

    By the time of the British Raj, post mutiny, the British officers of the British Raj Govt of India were known for their honesty and lack of corruption. This would be unthinkable in India today, Govt officers are corrupt as hell. Indeed such high reputation the British Gentleman had in India that any British Gentleman in an emergency situation (like having his wallet stolen) could go to the nearest Indian baniya money lender or even a shop keeper and ask for emergency funds and he would easily get it with no collateral. Such was the word and honour of a British Gentleman trusted in those days. Anyone in India knows how cunning and shrewd our baniya money lenders are and no one can imagine a baniya giving away money to anyone these days with such ease. LOL. But such was the reputation of British gentlemen in those days. Their word was steel. The baniya or shopkeeper knew that the money would be repaid.

    Eventually the tax rates in British India was much lower than tax rates in Islamic Mughal and Hindu Maratha empires. Indeed the Maratha tax rate was 25% (chauth or 1/4th). So horrible were these Maratha taxes that even a Hindu Rajput King committed suicide. That explains why the fierce Rajput Kings of the deserts of Rajasthan signed a treaty with the British East India Company against the Marathas and became protectorates. And after the Mughal Empire collapsed (after Emperor Aurangzeb), the new prince-lings distributed across India had tax rates as high as 50%.
    There was a book I was reading about some British Viceroy in India and the great game with Russia was on. The British Raj was afraid that Tzarist Russia, which had expanded into Central Asia, would invade British India in their desire to get access to a warm all weather sea port. Hence the great game in between the British and Russian Empires in Afghanistan and even in Tibet up to some extent. Both sides interfered in Afghanistan supporting rival kings as Afghanistan was the buffer zone in between both these gigantic Empires.
    The Viceroy was discussing with his staff if the British Indian army would be able to resist a Russian Army (made up of European Russians and Central Asians) invasion. And the Viceroy lamented that the British Indian Army is short of ammunition for this task, it is one thing to protect India from Afghan tribesmen but resisting an European style Army is something else all together. The Viceroy lamented that since taxation in India was so low, they were under budgeted to buy more needed military equipment for the British Indian Army for such a task and maybe British troops from the main Royal British Army themselves may be needed to support the Indian Army if such a Russian invasion was to occur in this part of the Empire.

    Despite continuing fiscal pressures on the British Indian Central Government in New Delhi, the Victorian subjects of the British Crown in the Indian subcontinent were among the lowest taxed populations in the world. In their meticulous study of the political economy of the global British Empire Davis and Huttenback arrived at some surprising figures for British India. By their calculations between 1860-64 and 1910-12, the residents of British India paid on average only £0.26 per capita per year in total government revenue consisting of taxes and fees. By contrast the residents of the United Kingdom, among the highest taxed people in the world, paid £4.76 per capita on average over the same period. Other dependent colonies in the British Empire paid £1.05 per capita; colonies with responsible government (White settler colonies like Australia, Canada, New Zealand) paid far more at £4.17. Foreign developed countries imposed taxes and fees averaging £1.51 per capita on their inhabitants. Indeed an African researcher in the Netherlands came to the conclusion that the ability of the Empire to tax more in Britain and White Settler Colonies like Australia/Canada/ New Zealand/South Africa actually helped those economies as they governments had more money to build much more infrastructure compared to non settler colonies like India or Nigeria.

  114. Malla says:
    @Meena

    RSS or BJP don’t differ much from Gandhi in that sense .

    This is very true. Ambedkar (the one who wrote the Constitution of India) considered the Indian National Congress/INC (the primary party which fought for Indian Independence from British Empire, Gandhi was president many times) as a milder version of the extreme right Hindu fundamentalist RSS. This may be news to Indians today who consider the Congress as a leftist (and thus anti-national/ anti-Hindu/ traitor) party as against the more nationalist BJP (political wing of the right wing Hindutva RSS). The Congress party is considered by majority Hindus today a party which appeases minorities like Muslims too much and many consider the Congress today to be a milder version of the left (CPM and CPI-Communist Party of India-Maoist and Communist Party of India Leninist)!!! But according to Ambedkar the Congress was a milder version of the extreme right and he was right. The Congress in those days was very upper caste Hindu (maybe with Jains) heavy though had Muslim members too. Jinnah (father of Pakistan) was a member of the Indian National Congress (INC) before he branched out to form the Muslim League, this could be because the Congress was a very upper caste Hindu Brahmin-Baniya (Gandhi)-Kayastha party. Bose a Bengali Kayastha and a genius (topped the ICS exams) was too a member of the INC but branched out to form the Forward Bloc due to Gandhi’s slimey disgusting politics and later went on to make an alliance with Hitler’s Third Reich and Imperial Japan against the British Empire.
    Many lower caste leaders like Ambedkar, Periyar, Phule etc… and even upper caste social reformers like Ranade supported the British Raj and it took some time for the Congress to become popular among the masses. It took Gandhi to achieve that. Before that the Congress was just a party of Western (England) educated upper caste Indians who wanted Home rule from the British. Most of the masses were initially oblivious to them.

    Ghabdhi ‘s singular obsession with his religion based restructuring of Raj prevented him from creating an unified awareness of being Indian based on equality ,secularism, and open free capitalism or alternate model of socialism .

    Very true. 100% correct. Gandhi influenced by the crackpot Theosophical society brought religion into the picture which even the Muslim Jinnah warned him against. Even though he supported Muslims many times (and always opposed the lower castes and Ambedkar), it may have been slimey Gandhi’s actions which could have led to Jinnah going for the Muslim League and hence Pakistan. Bose would have had a United India as his INA (Indian National Army) supported by the IJA (Imperial Japanese Army) had no discrimination whatsoever in between caste or religion, all were just Indians, Capice. This is even though Bose was upper caste Kayastha. Bose could have created a United India and maybe even imposed National Socialism on India (he was very impressed by the progress made in the Third Reich, Hitler told him Indians would have to work hard like Germans for 100 years and India would become Great again), but unfortunately he lost.

    • Replies: @Meena
  115. Meena says:
    @Malla

    n. Even though he supported Muslims many times (and always opposed the lower castes and Ambedkar), it may have been slimey Gandhi’s actions which could have led to Jinnah going for the Muslim League and hence Pakistan.”

    Jinnah was quite thin in the religion It was not religiosity which prompted him to leave Congress but the dangerous combinations of the casteism , religiosity and obscurantism of Ghandhi and intolerance of dissent. Ghandhi used the demise of Ottoman empire to rally Muslim . He succeeded but he did not channel the energy to the fight for the independence of India . His sole purpose was to present himself as leader of the Muslim and imply that the Congress as the only party that muslim can hope for without having any say beyond what was offered by the top echelon of the party .
    Ghnadhi beyond this political gesture did not address any muslim issue Neither he addressed any labor, small -farmer. indentured- labor’s issue nor any Dalit or untouchable issue .

    India would have remained as one country . Subhas Bose , Ambedkar and Jinnah should have fought

    Congress together . But that would have taken dozen of years from the time the true nature ofCongress
    had become obvious to each of them .

    • Replies: @Malla
    , @Malla
  116. Malla says:
    @Meena

    Thanks I agree with you. Yes Jinnah was not a hardcore Muslim, he was quite westernized (like Nehru), he loved drinking whiskey. But I think, being the intelligent man he could sense that India in the future would inevitably eventually move towards Hindu fundamentalism and therefore he want out with Pakistan as a safe haven for Indian Muslims.
    Tho I must add that Gandhi was very intelligent and a philosopher in his own right (Hind Swaraj book) and had a good humane side too in spite of his dirty politics.

    • Replies: @Meena
  117. gT says:
    @d dan

    I’m looking forward to the day when China claims all Mongol conquered territory as belonging to it 🙂

    • Replies: @antibeast
  118. Meena says:
    @Malla

    The Indian Ideology by Perry Anderson opened my eyes about Gandhi. I had more respects and a sense of awe for him. No longer . This book quotes the collected works of Gandhi . It is no different than what is advocated by Hinduvatta sans the expulsion and conversion of Muslims and Christians .

    Now I wonder if you knew read or thought about the beginning of Hindu ultranationalist way before 1900 ? Any thought on Bankim Chandra and intellectuals around him ?

    • Replies: @Malla
  119. antibeast says:
    @gT

    I’m looking forward to the day when China claims all Mongol conquered territory as belonging to it.

    You’re confused.

    China has never claimed the Mongol Empire as its own. The Yuan Dynasty which ruled the Chinese Empire was established by Kublai Khan who also ruled the larger Mongol Empire as the Great Khan. After his death, the Mongol Empire disintegrated into the Yuan dynasty and three Muslim Khanates: the Golden Horde, the Chagatai Khanate and the Ilkhanate.

    The Mongols started out as alien rulers of the Yuan Dynasty but had adopted Tibetan Buddhism and Chinese Confucianism to rule the Chinese Empire. After the death of Kublai Klan split the Mongol Empire, the Mongols ruling the Yuan Dynasty assimilated to become “Chinese”. But the Mongols continued to rule the Yuan Dynasty of the Chinese Empire until deposed by the Ming.

    • Thanks: showmethereal
  120. Malla says:
    @Meena

    The Indian Ideology by Perry Anderson

    I will hava look.

    It is no different than what is advocated by Hinduvatta sans the expulsion and conversion of Muslims and Christians .

    Agreed

    I wonder if you knew read or thought about the beginning of Hindu ultranationalist way before 1900 ?

    Do some research on the Theosophical Society and Gandhi. Madame Blavitsky, Colonel Olcott (who came up with the Out of India theory loved by Hindutva nationalists), Anne Besant.

    Any thought on Bankim Chandra and intellectuals around him ?

    Bankimchandra Chatterjee /Chattopadhyay, the Bengali Hindutva Nationalist who wrote Vande Mataram? Not much, you have any clues?
    What is strange about Bankimchandra Chatterjee was that he was very anti British Raj but still was made made a Companion in the Most Eminent Order of the Indian Empire (CBE a type of Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire ) in 1894!!! He was obviously Brahmin and very Hindu fundamentalist nationalist.

  121. Malla says:
    @Meena

    Well Hinduisation works in India, it worked for the BJP (by demolishing the Babri mosque due to which it actually became more popular with more seats in parliament) and it worked for the Congress either. It works because of the people. The Hinduisation of the national movement resulted in the Congress party that led the struggle for India’s independence to become a predominantly Hindu party, the Congress party is the mother of this Hindu-tainted nationalism, and having remained in power for most part of India’s independent history, has frozen Indian politics.

    The roots of the crisis of this might be to be found in the pre-Independence period, maybe as early as 1914 when M.K. Gandhi returned to India. By the time Gandhi arrived in 1914, Congress was moving in two directions. One faction were the Moderates who belived in the method of petitioning the British Raj Govt of India for more rights for Indians. Others became extremists and moved toward individual terrorism and violence but had virtually no effect on the power of the Raj.

    But both were still elite strategies, separated from a popular movement of mass resistance. In spite of obvious differences in goals and tactics, the common element in both wings of nationalism was their ‘elitism’. Congress leaders believed that the enlightened and educated (themselves) should speak for the masses, while those espousing an armed revolutionary assault as coming from a dedicated minority in both cases there was no mass movement. In 1915 Congress militants had been committing individual terrorist acts that did not really change anything.

    Under Gandhi’s leadership Congress began to receive funding from many of the biggest industrial concerns, including the Sarabhais textile magnates in Gujarat and the Birlas, the second-largest industrial group in India. Gandi’s campaigns were made possible by drawing from the vast financial resources of the industrialist G.D. Birla. These remained his regular consultants through his political career.

    His championing of an ancient pre-modern Hindu Indian civilization has all the hallmarks of ‘invention’ and ‘re-invention’: an ‘imagined’ pre-capitalist rural or agrarian community in equilibrium.

    His attitude towards the masses in the villages was often contradictory. He would champion peasants’ demands and organise them on condition that they remained peaceful, respectful of landowners and obedient to Gandhi’s tactics. If they had the temerity to demand the confiscation of private property, they were deemed to be ungrateful, unruly and unworthy.

    In the course of these struggles, Gandhi remoulded Congress from an elitist organisation of once-a-year Congresses and intermittently-active elite England educated hypernationalist clerks and lawyers into a genuinely mass movement-cum-party.

    The freedom struggle had assumed an all-India character under his leadership.

  122. @antibeast

    You are correct. Most comical is that Vietnam claims all the Spratly’s. Also conveniently left out is the ROC in Taiwan still claims them all. All the claimants except the Filipinos rejected that faux arbitration panel. But of course not of these things are outlaid in the MSM

    • Replies: @antibeast
  123. antibeast says:
    @showmethereal

    You are correct. Most comical is that Vietnam claims all the Spratly’s. Also conveniently left out is the ROC in Taiwan still claims them all. All the claimants except the Filipinos rejected that faux arbitration panel. But of course not of these things are outlaid in the MSM.

    Vietnam claims all of the Spratly and Paracels Islands, encompassing a maritime zone five times larger than the land area of Vietnam itself. And that’s why Vietnam is the most aggressive in occupying twenty one features of the Spratly Islands, surpassing the PRC’s number of six. Also, the PRC’s “nine-dash-line” claim is derived from the ROC’s “eleven-dash-line” claim which the USA recognized after WWII. The PRC removed two dashes as a concession to Vietnam. Lastly, China is not claiming the entire South China Sea as its “territorial waters” which is defined by the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) as 12-nm from your land territory. What China is claiming is “historic rights” in the South China Sea in the form of territorial claims to the SCS islands as well as tis maritime and economic rights under the provisions of UNCLOS which was ratified AFTER the ROC has already drawn up the “eleven-dash-line” claim to represent China’s “historic rights” in the South China Sea. So China is following the law, rules and procedures as provided by UNCLOS of which China but not the USA is a signatory. But you won’t hear that in the MSM.

    • Agree: showmethereal
  124. @Chris Mallory

    I aint an ass dumbo, your still a degenerate britshit descandant,asses are cowards google their mass desertions in ww2 in Malaysia( probably all covered up by now by the power of the US govt, so to get around the cover up type gordon bennett) they cant police asia asses brains too small even taiwan could mess them up , they got a good B—ch slapping by the golden Xi recently, if Indonesia ever relaise the power they have over the asses it will be over for the british fools.

  125. Anon[215] • Disclaimer says:

    “ Indonesia ever relaise the power they have over the asses it will be over for the british fools.”

    Australia is fighting against time. It’s out there alone with 30 millions lazy bum dependent on memory and US for survival . China Japan and Indonesia will gobble it up .

  126. KA says:
    @ko

    Not a bad idea. Why don’t we first repatriate this orange clown and his extended clan with some of the other cabinet members and advisors like Bannon( ex ) , some anchors of Fox,CNN ,and MSNBC with provisions for the journey ? No money though .

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