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The killing in Zimbabwe of a magnificent lion named Cecil has ignited worldwide outrage and disgust. It should. In my view, hunting for sport is murder.

The perpetrator was Walter Palmer, a small-town dentist from Minnesota with a record of killing large animals with a bow and high-powered rifles. A little man from a two-by nothing town who made himself feel big by murdering animals. He was apparently on probation for illegally killing a black bear and who knows what else.

This vile man has overnight become public enemy number one.

Lions, like elephants, are an endangered species. They have been hunted to the edge of extinction both by local farmers and foreign hunters. These glorious creatures have been the symbol of strength, courage and nobility since the dawn of our not very civilized civilization.

There were an estimated 50,000 lions left in Africa during the 1950’s. Today, hunting, starvation and disease has cut their number to only 20,000. They have joined the elephant and rhino as Africa’s leading endangered species. The only way to hunt is with a camera.

One hundred elephants are being killed each day by gangs of poachers seeking their ivory. Rhinos are close to extinction. The situation in southeast Asia is almost as grim. Tigers and other large forest animals are in grave peril.

I am a lover of felines, large and small. In truth, there is very little difference between lions and domestic companion cats. Our household tabbies are miniature versions of wild lions. The only major difference is that domestic cats do not live in prides, as do lions. Also, in Africa, male lions spend much of the day relaxing while sending out their harem of females to do all the hunting, and then bring home dinner.

One day while walking in Rome, I abruptly turned a corner and came upon a small street filled with a score of feral cats. They scattered and hid under parked cars. Lions, in order to survive, had shrunken in size to our familiar cats. It’s a pity elephants could not do the same. I live with five little cat-lions.

One day in Botswana, I left my safari camp – against orders not to – and decided to walk on foot through the lion’s hunting grounds, wanting to experience what primitive man felt at the dawn of time. I was armed with nothing but a long stick and incredible folly.

I walked close to prides of lions for two hours. They stared at me quizzically. Fortunately for me, it was about two pm and intensely hot. The lions and lionesses were feeling lethargic and sleepy. I spoke to them and got a few lions rumbles back.

ORDER IT NOW

Walking among the lions was a thrilling, once in a lifetime experience: exhilarating, terrifying, heart-pounding, and yet, curiously, serene. Yet not one to be repeated again. I’d used up all my nine lives in one afternoon. My composure abruptly broke when a very large hippo roared out at me as I passed a clump of bushes. I scooted back to camp. Hippos kill more people in Africa than any other animal.

The camp rangers were livid. If I’d been killed by the lions they would have lost their license. They thought I was crazy. I probably was.

Back to the killer dentist. He and his two Zimbabwean guides apparently used scraps of food to lure Cecil from his protected reserve. Then the dentist shot Cecil with an arrow. Wounded and suffering, Cecil dragged himself away, only to be stalked for two whole days until Dr. Palmer shot him to death with a high-powered rifle. The hunters then cut off Cecil’s dead, with its splendid black mane, and skinned him. The corpse of this beautiful animal was left to rot in the sun.

Palmer, who reportedly paid $55,000 for the trophy kill, claimed to believe massacring and butchering an endangered animal was legal and ok. Who knows? Maybe under Zimbabwe’s loosey-goosey laws it is. Zimbabwe is dead broke and desperate for US dollars.

But murdering animals for sport cannot be allowed in civilized societies. It’s medieval and barbarous. I used to like and admire the former king of Spain, Juan Carlos – until he snuck off to Botswana and murdered an elephant and two buffalo for sport. And he was the honorary chair of Spain’s World Wildlife Fund! Spaniards were rightly outraged. Juan Carlos subsequently abdicated.

The major problem here is that there are Dr. Palmers and Juan Carlos’ all over southern Africa. Botswana and South Africa have numerous “hunting camps” where Americans and Europeans go to murder penned big game. Fees can run up to $100,000 is some cases. Such camps also exist in North America.

The hunters who kill for pleasure are usually well-to-do men pretending they are dashing big game hunters. In reality, many are fat, big-bellied Neanderthals without culture or education. They revel in impressing their similarly backwards neighbors by their murderous prowess.

Frankly, I’d like to see all hunters hunted. I’ve helped finance bush rangers in Kenya who protect elephants from poachers seeking their tusks. When a mother elephant is killed, its children can die of grief and shock within 24 hours. The Sheldrick Foundation of Nairobi helps rescue these little orphans. Alas, half die within a day.

We should ban all sport hunting. Come fall, North America’s woods are filled with beer-swilling louts trying to kill deer, moose and ducks. Many American Republicans seem to believe there is something macho or aristocratic about blasting helpless animals with high-power rifles or shotguns. President Theodore Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway and Dick Cheney were example of men filled with self-doubt about their masculinity trying to prove their maleness by murdering animals.

As I always say to hunters, if you want to prove what a man you are, go fight a bear with a Swiss Army knife.

Let’s make the horrifying murder of Cecil the Lion a symbol to end hunting and to help guide us to civilized behavior.

(Republished from EricMargolis.com by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Hunting 
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  1. Tom_R says:

    REAL MEN DON’T HUNT.

    Thanks for the great article, Sir. This is a real tragic story of this sick man killing this beautiful lion. Strange as it may sound, my heart goes out to the beautiful lion that died an unnecessary death.

    I have never understood the “manly sport” of hunting. This is asymmetric warfare. These men go out with guns and rifles, binoculars and other high tech gadgets (which animals do not have) and kill innocent animals who have no counter-weapons and then claim their bravado.

    Well, if they are going to fight animals, maybe if they were to do it as hand to hand combat, neither side using any tools or weapons, neither side with any clothes to protect from the elements and then it would be symmetric and then we would know if Cecil is stronger than the Dentist or if the Dentist is stronger than Cecil. Not that I recommend killing, but if you must fight animals, at least play it fair.

    So a just punishment for the Dentist would be that he should be extradited to Zimbabwe, where they could give him his wish this way. All his gadgets and guns and even his clothes would be taken away, and the naked Dentist, without anything, would be put face to face with the Lions, who are equally without any clothes or weapons, and the battle would begin. I am sure when the Dentist is mauled by a lioness, the world would know who was stronger.

    Let the hunter be the hunted.

  2. schmenz says:

    I will get enraged by the stupid killing of Cecil when the foul crimes of Planned Parenthood are dealt with first.

  3. guest says:

    You specify that killing for sport is murder, but what about killing animals for other purposes? Why are they not murder, too? We don’t make such distinctions for human beings, except excusing specific circumstances like killing in self-defense. Why is it murder to kill humans for food but not, say, chickens? The word “murder” is hyperbole, I think. It’s fun to say, because you’re angry and want to denounce. It’d be like me referring, if I objected to the practice, to the keeping of “domestic companion cats” as slavery.

    • Replies: @Realist
  4. rienzi says:

    The Masai hunted lions, one on one with a spear. Perhaps Mr. Little Dick Dentist should try that if he wants to prove how macho he is.

    Also, as anyone who has ever “owned” a cat knows, its debatable as to who is the master, and who the slave.

  5. Svigor says:

    The killing in Zimbabwe of a magnificent lion named Cecil has ignited worldwide outrage and disgust. It should. In my view, hunting for sport is murder.

    That’s because you’re another tiresome cosmo Jew, who isn’t happy without pavement under his feet, and surrounding him in all directions, and think animal=zoo.

    I think it’s perfect that SJWs are all up in arms about the dentist (lol) who blew away Cecil the Lion (lol). Dovetails perfectly with their liberal white supremacy: Africans chopping each other to bits, eating each other, harvesting one another’s body parts, raping, pillaging, etc., doesn’t matter at all to SJWs, because Africans don’t matter. Nothing they do is important, unless it makes SJWs feel warm and fuzzy inside. But one cracker caps a lion and all Hell breaks loose, because WHITE PEOPLE DO MATTER.

    REAL MEN DON’T HUNT.

    Pussy.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Truth
  6. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Svigor

    I think it’s perfect that SJWs are all up in arms about the dentist (lol) who blew away Cecil the Lion (lol).

    Blew away? He used a bow and arrow, tard. Read the story before commenting.

    • Replies: @fish
  7. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @schmenz

    I will get enraged by the stupid killing of Cecil when the foul crimes of Planned Parenthood

    They are two despicable but essentially unrelated issues, except for the taking of life (which has been going on “legally” since 1973). Personally the PP horror is clearly more grave because it involves human life. It’s Mengele-esque. But the Cecil killing is horrific as well and goes to the depravity of humankind in hunting for “sport”.

  8. Hepp says:

    How many antelope were saved by the killing of the lion? I’m genuinely curious. Not that the lion is “evil” or morally responsible for killing others, but if we want to reduce suffering in the world, we probably should want fewer carnivores.

    • Replies: @CK
    , @Veritas
    , @Realist
  9. CK says:
    @Hepp

    Of course once you remove the carnivores you get to live in a world overrun by white tail vermin. Bambi is the most evil of creatures, a killer of children and adults a carrier of numerous diseases a plague on vegetarians trying to grow organic vegetables to avoid eating the meat that is sooooo good for them.
    I have heard the screams of the baby carrots as they were pulled from the ground to suffer being sautéd in butter and glazed with maple syrup; the horrifying cries of the mushrooms as they are turned into soup. The horror the horror.
    Once you ban goose hunting you gets miles of goose crap all over everything, and evil goose using your lawns and gardens and parks as toilets and foraging grounds.
    Once the lion gets old and too ill to keep his harem in line, younger meaner lions defeat him in battle and then the old lion goes off to become a pariah on all the creatures around it, man included.

    • Replies: @former darfur
  10. Veritas says:
    @Hepp

    Actually, no, you don’t want fewer carnivores. Without carnivores to keep the fern eaters in check, said fern eaters will deplete their habitat of nourishment which will lead to mass starvation.

    Locals:

    “Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country,” said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. “What is so special about this one?”

    “Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.”

    • Replies: @Hepp
  11. paid $55,000 for the trophy kill

    If trophy hunting could be made more popular through an advertising campaign, wildlife reserves would make a fortune and would have the funds and incentive to maintain a thriving lion population.

  12. In Nature, the potential end-of-life scenarios for a lion:

    As a cub:
    Eaten by predator.
    Starve because larger cubs out-compete for food.
    Killed by usurping pride leader.
    Trampled in den by buffalo

    As an adult:
    Injured in fight with lion or other fauna die.
    Injured in fight with lion or other fauna and rendered unable to hunt and starve.
    Hunting fails to bring in enough food and starve.
    Old age renders unable to hunt and starve.

    Man adds a new scenario:
    Shot by hunter.

    • Replies: @jb
  13. Realist says:

    Trophy hunting should be outlawed. Only a loser asshole would trophy hunt.

  14. Realist says:
    @guest

    You are unable to tell the difference between killing for sport and killing for food????

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
  15. Realist says:
    @Hepp

    Are you claiming this dick wad dentist was killing the lion to save antelope?

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  16. Realist says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    No they face black overpopulation

  17. Realist says:

    “As I always say to hunters, if you want to prove what a man you are, go fight a bear with a Swiss Army knife.”

    Or better yet a toothpick.

  18. Realist says:

    [It’s not good practice to provide numerous, short comments, which tend to clutter up a thread. It’s instead much preferable to aggregate them together into one or two much longer and more substantial ones.]

    “President Theodore Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway and Dick Cheney were example of men filled with self-doubt about their masculinity trying to prove their maleness by murdering animals.”

    Dick Cheney should get some points for trying to kill a lawyer.

  19. Hibernian says:

    Mr. Margolis, murder is the killing, without justification, of another person. Lions are not persons. They are animals. God gave Man dominion over the animals.

    • Replies: @Realist
  20. Hibernian says:
    @Realist

    That was not his intent, but it was one salutary effect.

  21. @Realist

    What do you think they do with the meat?

    • Replies: @Realist
  22. I’m hoping Unz fires Margolis over this limp wristed, FAGGOTY post.

  23. Wyrd says:

    I felt a great disturbance in the Farce as if millions of SJWs and Cuckservatives cried out “They killed Simba! You bastards!” but unfortunately they were not silenced.

    Teddy wept.

  24. Mr. Margolis, you’re a tad late on your trigger to have signaled this week’s roar of Two Minutes Hate.

  25. Realist says:
    @Honorary Thief

    [It is NOT good practice to provide numerous, short comments, which tend to clutter up a thread. It’s instead much preferable to aggregate them together into one or two much longer and more substantial ones.]

    “What do you think they do with the meat?”

    Use it as ‘bait’ to lure other animals out of National Parks where they are protected.

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
  26. @Tom_R

    These men go out with guns and rifles, binoculars and other high tech gadgets (which animals do not have) and kill innocent animals who have no counter-weapons and then claim their bravado.

    Most animals have superior sight, hearing and sense of smell. They also have quicker reflexes. In the case of lions, bears, and other predators they have teeth and claws.

    From Margolis:

    As I always say to hunters, if you want to prove what a man you are, go fight a bear with a Swiss Army knife.

    Humans have superior mental ability, that gives us the ability to make the tools to put us on equal footing with the animals.

    Our household tabbies are miniature versions of wild lions. The only major difference is that domestic cats do not live in prides,

    Noooo, the major difference is that a house cat tops out around 20 pounds and a lion has an average weight of 440 pounds.

    The average lifespan of a male lion is 8-10 years. This lion was 13, close to the average lifespan when female lions are included. If he was lured out by food, then he was probably on his last legs and would have been dead before the year was out.

    • Replies: @Realist
  27. Hepp says:
    @Veritas

    Actually, no, you don’t want fewer carnivores. Without carnivores to keep the fern eaters in check, said fern eaters will deplete their habitat of nourishment which will lead to mass starvation.

    Seems like it would be a lot more humane to let men go out there with shotguns and cull the herd every now and then, rather than letting fern eaters be eaten alive.

    At least one philosopher I know of has argued that we have a moral duty to get rid of carnivores, and I find his arguments at least intriguing.

    http://io9.com/the-radical-plan-to-eliminate-earths-predatory-species-1613342963

  28. fish says:
    @Anonymous

    ” Then the dentist shot Cecil with an arrow. Wounded and suffering, Cecil dragged himself away, only to be stalked for two whole days until Dr. Palmer shot him to death with a high-powered rifle.

    Read the story before commenting.

    ….tard.

  29. fish says:

    “But murdering animals for sport cannot be allowed in civilized societies”.

    Well it is Zimbabwe.

    ….and of course….the “money shot”.

    A little man from a two-by nothing town who made himself feel big by murdering animals. He was apparently on probation for illegally killing a black bear and who knows what else.

    It’s okay to condemn the act without wallowing in the usual lefty, SJW REAL MEN DON’T HUNT fever swamp Eric.

  30. @Realist

    No, they give it away to the local blacks. The same local blacks who would shoot Cecil for bushmeat if whitey didn’t pay the equivalent of 100 average annual Zimbabwean salaries to come over and hunt lions.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @Truth
  31. Realist says:
    @Chris Mallory

    “Humans have superior mental ability, that gives us the ability to make the tools to put us on equal footing with the animals.”

    So you’re claiming this asshole dentist built his transportation, made his own bow and arrows and made the gun/ bullets and did the chemistry for the smokeless powder used to ultimately kill the lion 40 hours after wounding it?

    What it tells us is dentists charge too much .

    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
  32. Realist says:
    @Hibernian

    “They are animals. God gave Man dominion over the animals.”

    Spoken like a true religious fanatic….”god said I could”.

    Religion is used to justify anything.

    A few years ago Rich Lowery of NR and I got into an electronic pissing match over the clubbing of baby seals. He used the same religious argument plus the clubbers were just trying to make a living.

    So are prostitutes and drug dealers.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  33. Realist says:
    @Honorary Thief

    So trophy hunters are as much scumbags as the sub Saharan blacks?

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
  34. Hibernian says:
    @Realist

    Prostitutes are more to be pitied than censured. Drug dealers not so much.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @Hibernian
  35. Realist says:
    @Hibernian

    Do you have a point pertinent to the subject???

  36. jb says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    You forgot death by disease, and by accidents. But your basic point is entirely correct: animals in the wild almost always die miserable deaths. They do not expire peacefully in their sleep, surrounded by grieving friends and relatives. Pretty much the best they can ever hope for is to be quickly torn apart by a predator, or shot by a hunter (which is essentially the same thing).

    I suppose if you shoot an animal in its prime you are depriving it of, well, its prime, and I guess that counts for something. I’m also somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of animals in factory farms that are miserable not just at the end of their lives, but all the way through, beginning to end. I do see that as a problem to be addressed. But as far as deaths go, being shot by a hunter (or having a bolt driven through your skull in a slaughterhouse) is the best it gets, and I’m not going to feel bad about it.

    • Replies: @Realist
  37. Hibernian says:
    @Hibernian

    The point was don’t make your point at the expense of prostitutes who are mainly victims.

  38. Jmaie says:

    “Come fall, North America’s woods are filled with beer-swilling louts trying to kill deer, moose and ducks.”

    …says someone who has not been around hunters much, the vast majoity of whom know quite well the dangers of mixing firearms and alcohol and take animals for meat. Just because someone has antlers on display doesn’t mean they don’t eat the rest.

    You should stick to proffering conspiracy theories and leave the real world alone. Too easy to appear an ignorant idealogue.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  39. @Realist

    No, generally speaking they follow the laws and don’t shoot game animals that aren’t allocated by the game department. The blacks poach them left and right.

    If you were to examine when the big declines in game populations began, it took place pretty much immediately after the end of white rule. Blacks simply don’t care, whites do.

  40. @Realist

    I am claiming that by using tools humans are the top of the food chain. Now, run along and play.

  41. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Is this article and the comments meant to be an attempt at satire? Hard to tell these days.

    • Replies: @IBC
    , @Realist
  42. Realist says:
    @jb

    The question is what kind of sick little f*#k gets off killing animals for trophies?

    • Replies: @WGG
  43. AnAnon says:
    @Tom_R

    All the lions should be declawed before they are allowed to hunt, their prey animals lack such things, its unfair.

  44. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jmaie

    amen my brother.

    I haven’t hunted in about 5 years, but every time I did I was hunting to fill my freezer. I probably passed up 20 possible shots for every one I took, if it wasn’t a perfect humane kill I always passed. many a year I came back empty handed, and that was perfectly ok.

    and yeah, other than around the campfire at night, alcohol was never part of the scene.

    looks like said poster is a big city ignoramus. come on out to the country, boy, find out what life is really all about.

    it’s beautiful, full of wonderful people, and nothing like your twisted imagination envisions.

    peace.

  45. Pacific says:

    If Cecil the lion was Palestinian he would not get front page….

  46. Sorry, the lion is itself a hunter and killer. Not only that, when the lion takes over a pride, very often the first thing he does is kills all the cubs.

    Watching the lion kill his defeated rivals’ cubs is quite the experience. The Japanese were the first to film it, even though all the animal-filmers have known of and usually seen it: they never filmed it, or it never left the Moviola, because white audiences can’t bear to watch it.

    The lion chases down each cub and bites it in the abdomen, puncturing its intestines, and drops it to run off. It dies shortly thereafter of septicemia. Occasionally he will eat one, and occasionally will rip one in half giving it a relatively quick death, but generally he chomps it and drops it.

    I’ve never shot a lion, but ever since I read Peter Hathaway Capstick’s books I’ve longed to cycle the well honed bolt of a .378 Weatherby, shoulder the beautifully made stock, draw a bead between those eyes, and feel the massive recoil as my full metal jacketed slug brought death-instant, clean death-to a lion. I’d have him pelted out of course, and the substantial fees I’d pay to the government and the 200+ pounds of meat would benefit the Africans and in effect keep the land paid for so many future generations of lions can live. Hunters are not exterminating lions, habitat depletion is. The irresponsible unconditional spreading of Western life-prolonging technology to primitives who will not quit breeding at excessive rates is exterminating all wildlife in Africa, not just lions.

    Not hunters.

    • Replies: @Threecranes
  47. WGG [AKA "World\'s Greatest Grandson"] says:

    Burn the witch! Ruin a man’s life because he makes different choices than you! We are better and we will prove it!

    Margolis, you are a preening, pathetic stone-caster. Hope it feels good.

  48. WGG [AKA "World\'s Greatest Grandson"] says:
    @Realist

    What kind of d!ckless freak gets off on ruining strangers’ lives for fun? I do detest a mob and the mindless sadists who join them.

  49. Worlds Greatest Grandson said it best – this is really just mindless mob hysteria. It’s a SJW ‘rant’ Animals in Africa are getting killed all the time – a lot of them by poachers – why is there no hysteria and outcry about that? The biggest threat to wildlife is human population, why is there no debate on this and calls for something to be done about it? I don’t get how this dentist-hunter guy has suddenly become the most hated man since George Zimmerman. I just read Derbyshires take on this – much better, rational account of what actually happened, rather than a mob hatefest. If everyone is so upset about it, you’d be better off addressing the root causes of wildlife depletion and habitat destruction rather than this infantile hue and cry.

    • Replies: @Realist
  50. @schmenz

    I suppose your objection to Planned Parenthood is an objection to the deliberate destruction of human zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and foetuses even if that is what the pregnant woman wants and that you want people to be punished by the state for giving effect to her choice. Right so far?

    Why? On what principle that is consistent with the essential reason for criminal law in a pluralistic society which must be to maintain order and prevent the need for or actuality of self-help in relation to sentient members of the community?

    Do you rely on it being the command of the Abrahamic God?

    Why would you think we should obey such a command even if we accepted that there was such an indication of a God’s will?

    Why would you think that God willed any such rule given that he gave no relevant instruction to the ancient Hebrews despite all his alleged communications to them, that Jesus said nothing about it and that Christian authorities were allowed to promote Aristotle’s errors about the ensoulment of the foetus for nearly 2000 years until the late 20th century?

    Assuming you think there is a God that has intentions, purposes and preferences what evidence do you have of that God caring at all about the motives or means of planned parenthood?

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @schmenz
  51. Realist says:
    @The Albino Sasquatch

    “If everyone is so upset about it, you’d be better off addressing the root causes of wildlife depletion and habitat destruction rather than this infantile hue and cry.”

    How do you know I don’t or that the other protesters don’t?

    It is not about this killing only, but about sick little f&%ks that kill just to kill.

    You better watch an Albino Sasquatch would make a great trophy.

  52. IBC says:
    @Anonymous

    I hope so. This is probably one of the least sophisticated pieces Eric Margolis has ever written. It offers zero insight except into the mind of the author himself. His sensational language and construction of moral non-equivalencies is also unhelpful. I was expecting something more along the lines of this article from the Observer:

    http://observer.com/2015/08/zimbabwe-has-a-bigger-monster-than-cecil-the-lions-killer-dictator-robert-mugabe/

    Is Michael Sainato, Eric’s new nom de plume? Or maybe it’s Chelsea Skojec?

  53. WGG [AKA "World\'s Greatest Grandson"] says:
    @Realist

    Your obsessive, repetitive posting and ritualistic use of the retarded phrase “sick little f&%ks” is really quite alarming. You sound like a mental case who escaped their MK-Ultra handler.

    • Replies: @Realist
  54. Realist says:
    @WGG

    That is so very hurtful, and I was just starting to look up to you.

  55. “A little man from a two-by nothing town…” Yeah I don’t know, I just really hate people that say things like this. I find it sexist and reeking of class snobbishness. You sound like a hipster dyke from an overpriced city that feels so superior to the fly over country little people, don’t you. That is all.

  56. @Realist

    “How do you know I don’t or that the other protesters don’t?”
    As I previously stated, large numbers of animals are being killed in sometimes large quantities in Africa – most notably elephants. Why is there no outcry over it? Why no mob hash tag calling for action against the poachers? The big game hunting business has been going on for a long time too – where is the non-stop screaming outrage over it?
    As for me – don’t try that in Skamania County WA, it’s a felony.
    Not that we big feet need it – you go into the woods at your own peril Realist. Happy Trails!

  57. Hibernian says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “Why would you think that God willed any such rule given that he gave no relevant instruction to the ancient Hebrews despite all his alleged communications to them, that Jesus said nothing about it and that Christian authorities were allowed to promote Aristotle’s errors about the ensoulment of the foetus for nearly 2000 years until the late 20th century?

    Assuming you think there is a God that has intentions, purposes and preferences what evidence do you have of that God caring at all about the motives or means of planned parenthood?”

    God gave the ancient Hebrews a very relevant instruction, “Thou shalt not kill.” Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, not to do away with them. Please provide a source for the Catholic Church teaching ensoulment up until the late 2oth century. Lastly, the Lord cares very deeply about everyone and everything that they do. He has destroyed cities because of their wickedness and we’re lucky that He hasn’t destroyed us so far.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  58. @Hibernian

    “Thou shalt not kill” doesn’t take you very far. I’ll accept that the Animal Liberationists might be disappointed and that God didn’t mind the killing of his other creatures, perhaps even cruelly, and was happy to make exceptions for some sort of revenge or revenge substitute in the shape of capital punishment but it still doesn’t tell you what was in God’s mind (if it matters) as to the life that he was keen on preventing being extinguished by violent action.

    As to the authority for the Catholic Church’s misguided teachings for so long, I would be pleased if you would take what I am about to convey further and to correct me if I am wrong. My authority is a university professor of some distinction in his field of literature who converted from Lutheranism to Catholicism in his 20s and remains interested in getting things right in argument. He admitted to me that the Catholic Encyclopaedia of about 1910 supported the Aristotelian view taken over by The Angelic Doctor (Aquinas) that a male foetus “quickened” 40 days from conception, the female after 90 days, and that the quickening was the ensoulment or acquisition of personhood. The point arose, he told me, in discussion of a candidate for the priesthood having procured an abortion for his girlfriend. Apparently it was OK up to 40 days….. I think he told me this when I said I had found it interesting that a Catholic priest advising a committee I was on and formerly advising the /Warnock Committee in the UK when he was doing postgraduate work at Cambridge said that the embryo/foetus couldn’t be a person until after about 8 days from conception because up until then it could become twins or the twinning process could go into reverse. The same scholarly priest I came across during a judicial or at any rate judge’s inquiry into embryo experimentation and found that he had been pulled into line by Rome and now disavowed his former intelligent views.

    It seems that the Pope’s rule is that God commands him to command those who still pay attention that destroying the dividing cells resulting from human conception is forbidden according to the rule that whatever the latest secular science seems to have arrived at will determine what is to be protected. Rubbish but logical enough to prove that the church’s position is rubbish: the mere diktat of theocrats.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  59. @Former Darfur

    “The irresponsible unconditional spreading of Western life-prolonging technology to primitives who will not quit breeding at excessive rates is exterminating all wildlife in Africa, not just lions.”

    That’s it in a nutshell. I wonder why Margolis didn’t address either of those issues?

    Liberals care more about their pet lion than their fellow white farmers who were being murdered by Mugabe’s thugs.

  60. @schmenz

    A typical admission by fellow descendants of good Catholic Irish that faith these days is nothing but faith and can’t be argued for rationally against unbelievers. That is trivial and unimportant and I wouldn’t even start to beat up on such clingers on to security blankets who are often better and more useful people than I am but it matters because they (you) want to force your views on others using criminal sanctions even when the others have well reasoned conscientious grounds for their actions.

    It is very unbecoming of you, in precisely those circumstances, that you refuse to engage in argument but still insist on your cruel punitiveness and, at best, censorious sanctimony.

    What is more. Having asked me to provide authority for the Catholic Church’s centuries of error I gave you more than enough to allow you to check what I proffered and you have given no evidence of having done so. From which I infer that you don’t care because no argument can shift your opinions including those which involve harm to fellow citizens.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  61. @Realist

    You should consider taking a couple beta-blockers, I think your head’s going to explode.

  62. Truth says:
    @schmenz

    You can’t multitask?

  63. Truth says:
    @Svigor

    “That’s because you’re another tiresome cosmo Jew, who isn’t happy without pavement under his feet, and surrounding him in all directions, and think animal=zoo.”

    LOL, calm down there, Tarzan.

  64. Truth says:
    @Honorary Thief

    “No, they give it away to the local blacks. The same local blacks who would shoot Cecil for bushmeat’

    Then why wasn’t he already dead?

  65. @CK

    “Once you ban goose hunting you gets miles of goose crap all over everything, and evil goose using your lawns and gardens and parks as toilets and foraging grounds.”

    Indeed, about the only good thing illegal immigrants are good for in my area is that they poach and eat the geese which as migratory birds are federally immune from hunting (except that these don’t migrate.) The irony: people who are not supposed to migrate (at least not here) are the only control on birds that are supposed to migrate (but don’t).

    Usually they bait the local office park ponds with day old bread and when the geese are sufficiently thick they walk out there, whereupon a few of the geese decide to charge the nonchalantly walking mestizo. Instead of running the other way like SWPLs, Señor Gansoasesino swings his implement of choice (usually a worn out small block Chevy camshaft with its sharp bearing journals taped over) in a line drive across the goose’s neck and tosses the bird in a shopping bag, and runs for the treeline or into the waiting jalopy of an accomplice.

    The local gendarmerie mostly looks the other way since it costs money to jail illegals, whereas jailing resident white kids means the city gets to charge them or their parents a three figure sum per day for the, ahem, privilege of being incarcerated in their hoosegow.

  66. Hibernian says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    1910 is in the EARLY 20th century. A Church official’s rationalization of a seminarian’s having procured an abortion for his girlfriend is an example of corruption. And you’re depending on a chain consisting of Catholic Encyclopedia – my friend – me.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  67. Hibernian says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You yourself relied on a friend’s reading of the 1910 Catholic encyclopedia. Also your meanderings are very hard to follow. Right reason and true faith are not in conflict.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  68. @Hibernian

    Before you assert corruption you should be very careful, just as a well trained professional and ethical lawyer will warn his client against alleging fraud in tort suit unless he has convincing evidence of it which includes evidence of motive. Even if we were dealing with some “Church official’s rationalisation” how would it be clearly corrupt and wrong to search two thousand years of writing on the subject so the benefit of the doubt could be given to a promising young man who wanted to enter the priesthood after impregnating some girl (as many Popes had done) and then finding a reason or rationalisation to help her out of her (in days past) major difficulty.

    What you call rationalisation is just what generations of Talmudic scholars, medieval scholastics and clever Jesuits did without a hint of corruption.

    But you seem to be admitting that the version in what a little Wiki reading has told me was the original “authoritative” (blessed with a non obstat) Catholic Encyclopaedia published in America between 1905 and 1913 is as I reported. Perhaps you checked an unexpurgated first edition in your nearest major library or even downloaded it as a .pdf file. And why would it not be? You seem to be equating my reliance on a distinguished Catholic professor of English (with pre pomo scholarly standards) to tell me accurately what a particular text said with you reliance on whatever a widely ignorant Pope declares on any subject he chooses to be definitive about whether or not he says he is speaking ex cathedra and therefore infalllibly on matters of faith and morals.

    Of course you start with certainty as to your ultimate way of reaching right conclusions which are a function of the cultural and psychological causes (and that’s shorthand of course) peculiar to your religious formation. By contrast I am happy with something as almost incomprehensible to me as Hawking and Mlodinov’s version of how our universe (and perhaps billions of other universes) came into existence from nothing and then deriving our whole conception of morality from early struggles by little feeble hominids to survive by co-operation, trust, sharing, singing team songs etc. That is of course no way to arrive at the certainties you crave but strongly supports my view that we should butt out of matters embryonic as a matter of criminal law analogous to homicide because the only sensible approach to laws which punish people in a pluralistic society is to emphasise the maintenace of peace and order amongst people strong enough to endanger it.

    Do you really think the law should put doctors in gaol for performing abortions on women who decide that they conscientiously (by their standards carefully considered) should not bring the foetus they are bearing into the world? Should the law allow judges and juries to do that?

    If you haven’t done so I suggest a good Wiki read around the history of views on abortion, ensoulment and the quickening of the foetus, the Catholic Encyclopaedia etc.

    In the end how do you make a case for the Church’s last ditch stand as relevant by focusing on embryos, foetuses etc when the evidence is overwhelming: God, who communicates with people (part of the necessary beliefs of all Abrahamics) hasn’t regarded the status of the foetus as important eenough to give clear instructions “Thou shalt not kill”?? That merely emphasises my point because God must have known about the centuries of error and argument about how it related to what was in utero. What did he bother to do to stop the confusion and error? Nothing. Ergo he doesn’t care.

    I acknowledge that the current breath of fresh air in the Vatican is determined to make an impotent fool of himself on a wider field. So far he has condemned capitalism and sided with the extreme Green lefties whose apocalyptic vision is about what CO2 emissions are threatening the earth with.

  69. @Hibernian

    I have just dealt with that implied comparison with your reliance on the authority of someone (or people) whose dicta derive from the neurological conditions caused by prayer to an imagined phantom. I simply relied on a highly literate and honest friend to read a text accurately, especially as it was a confession against interest.

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