“Never mind”?

How deep, iffen.
 

Replies: @L.K, @Incitatus, @Sam Shama

"if I'm a rectum, you're (at best) a pesky hemorrhoid."

Hey InZitatus,

You're in luck!

Eh hem.. , I have a way to make L.K. disappear.

My first cousin Stanley invented Preparation H ointment!

Here's how it happened:

While he was interred at Treblinka,and employed as a Kaporegime supervisor, the Nazi commander was just getting ready to gas him.

Luckily, Stanley (inmates) called him "Stashu") knew Commander Klink suffered hemorrhoids!

Cousin Stashu thought very quickly. He mixed Zyklon B (2-parts), Cordite (2-parts), and Used Engine Oil (1-part) and invented Preparation H!

Just steps away from the gas chamber, Stashu yelled to Klink, "Yo,, I have something that will eradicate your pesky hemmorhoids!"

As Klink began to turn Zyklon B into a gas physical state, he threw the pellets to the floor, and exclaimed, "Well in that case, your execution can wait... bitte hand over to me the Preparation H right now!"

"Heil Hitler," shouted cousin Stanley.

P.S. Inzitatus, Preparation H is on sale this week at Walgreens.

Replies: @Incitatus

Hey inZitatus,
What you omitted, dear asshole, as the dishonest little sob you are, was the context of my spat with this avery. This deluded individual attacked me and Germans quite viciously and I replied in kind... as I always do.
Nothing much to it. That Germans and Italians have accomplished more than Armenians is just a fact, which does not necessitate any notions of racial superiority. In fact, I have little patience with biological determinists and have myself ridiculed nordicism here at Unz.
As for Poles, I have cousins who are half Polish and one of them is among my best friends.

Replies: @Incitatus

Hello Incitatus,

I hope you enjoyed a nice day or two of rest and recreation.

Returning from a day of tranquility with my horses I discover as expected, the cacophony lit up in the bestiary of reptiles and other ne'er do wells. It's always a sight to behold. The menagerie seems to have expanded a bit, nothing remarkable mind you, yet they seem to have worked themselves up into a jolly good lather. Leave them alone for a day or two, and the results are so predictable.

I scanned Orloski; the WSJ reading livery driver's scattered responses to you; curious muddle-head (missed the point of your references) that fellow, at once Uriah Heep and then a passive-aggressive, habitually cloaking himself in the holy garb of working-class virtue; naturally expecting his interlocutors to shower him with recognition. I fear he is finally coming apart at the seams, plaintively beseeching some [the staid geokat in this instance] to embark on the same ship with him. I await the tales of their journey together; everything ought to be ship shape should it occur.

L.K. the reptile-hybrid has made his entry, accompanied by the usual stench; interestingly, it seems perfectly willing to own up to its sometime-form as a haemorrhoid. Progress of sorts I suppose. Still, the question as to whether it was his Nazi mother or was it his father which visited the reptile pen remains an open one: very different progeny I have all know, bearing crucially on the matter of the hybrid's ability to procreate. One hopes for the best, naturally.

Have I left anyone out? Ah Svigor! Thought he was a bit of an eccentric applying that peculiar method of response. When I come to think of it, I am rather persuaded by your attribution of said behaviour to onanism. 'Viva Viagra SVigor!', I say then.

I am yet to compose a worthwhile set of responses to the questions Iffen posed me previously, although your most recent one on the subject of Zionism has done the needful; it stands in full concordance with positions I've expressed on more than one occasion.

Replies: @Incitatus

To be honest, I sometimes think UNZ is an active CIA/DARPA website

I don't think that there is anything to this rabbit hole except us.

Failed to attach comment #411 which was intended for you.

PS. Someone who realizes her grandparents were Nazis. Not the best legacy.

I always study the faces in any new pictures of the crowds at lynchings and KKK meetings.

Replies: @Incitatus

Re: "Horses."

Hey Dude,

Do you and Sam The Sham do it "bareback"?

Replies: @Anon

Iffen, lighten up! Read Vonnegut.

Thanks. It’s been almost forty-five years so maybe a refresher would do me good and help me too!

For the rest, who cares?

Don’t write things like this, they will crucify you for not being a humanitarian. They might have their job applications in for pellet dropper or even oven master, but, by God, they are not brutish louts, they are humanitarians extraordinaire.

I’m concerned about iffen…

Thanks, again, don’t worry, it’s all political angst. I just found out that Thomas Paine could be the poster child for the Noble Savage and the Blank Slate. I find that Edmund Burke’s foundation is much more to my liking and much stronger than Paine’s. Now I am surrounded by Burkettes and the frigging Little Platoons everywhere I turn. But, that’s what happens when you fail to read in depth for a better understanding. I feel like one of the Woodchuck’s fantasy cheerleaders, seduced by a few clever phrases, abused in the rumble seat, dumped out and kicked to the curb.

Sometimes it’s what people do when nobody’s looking that means the most.

Care to balance this against the value of what one does when one’s comrades are watching?

Replies: @Incitatus

InZit to 'iffen-iffen: "Read Vonnegut. None of it makes much sense."

Hey Iffen & Sam The Jewish Cowboy,

Below is a paragraph form "Slaughterhouse Five":

Rosewater was twice as smart as Billy, but he & Billy were dealing with similar crisis in similar ways. They had both found life meaningless, partly because of what they had seen in war. Rosewater, for instance, had shot a fourteen-year old fireman, mistaking him for a German soldier. So it goes. And Billy had seen the greatest massacre in European history, which was the fire-bombing of Dresden. So it goes."

post scriptum: Yes -- "so it goes." And 9-11 was the greatest massacre on U.S.soil and it remains an "unsolved case."

Replies: @Incitatus

Why? Linger passing auto accidents on the highway?

No, I usually avert my gaze. I didn't even like watching American Idol when they made fun of the clueless and talent deprived. (Of course some were in on the joke and enjoyed it.)

Why?

Looking for familiar faces, grandpa, great grandpa, great uncles, etc.

Allright, I unsay what I said about Chuck being a fraud, stand corrected, and await his questioning L.K. re: the Nazi rape of Poland, 1939.

Replies: @Chuck Orloski

Fraternal help, so to speak. The pet names you increasingly use?

At least you get a pet name. All I get is stuttering. Not only that, I always had second billing to Sam until you came back from hiatus, then I was kicked to the curb faster than a fantasy cheerleader. I don't even get an honorable mention anymore. I could have at least been given third place. Wait, can Woodchucks count above two?

Replies: @Chuck Orloski

"How do you feel about the (Hitler-Stalin) Molotov Ribbentrop Pact?"

InZitatus,

I do not "feel" anything about it. Objectively I studied the fascinating "pact" and most recently I have read Victor Suvorov's unorthodox and learned book, " The Chief Culprit."

At present, I will leave behind the fascinating matter of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Non-Aggresion Pact due to the expenditure of time that I actually have to allot for entertaining you by my chasing that particular history down.

Maybe L.K. will be interested... and call me a pet name, maybe "chicken," whatever, so be it -- I'm soon off to P. Giraldi's new AIPAC article.

Doubtless though, I am very (!) concerned with the ominous New World Order "pact" that I see coming soon to our distressed planet.

Frankly, inZi, I will FEEL absolutely zero surprise whatsoever were an aggressive "Non-aggression" & cooperative global economic pact is announced, including "superpowers," Presidents Trump, Putin, P.M. B. Netanyahu, and P.R C., Xi Xinping.

Odd how my use of "pet names" resembles the habit indulged by President G.W. Bush? Recall how "The Decider" nick named Vladimir Putin, "Pooty-Poot?" Where fraternal help is really needed, InZ, is for you and Sam The Sham to grow up, get real, and stay on TOPIC.

(Sigh) Admittedly, there are people here who offer "posts" which may not reach the level of your superior writing ability. (I count myself among the latter group) But InZi -- never forget that some commenters "believe" & "think" in ways greater than that which Zionist Jews & Neoconservatives tell them.

So don't hold breath while waiting for my thoughts on Poland, September 1939! My first impression was formed after reading Jan Karski's 1945 Book of The Month, "The Story of The Secret State." F.Y.I., as a member of the courageous Polish resistance, the late Mr. Karski battled the Nazi occupation of Poland. Now it's my turn to battle the Zionist occupation of the U.S.A., InZi. Fierstehen sie?

'Til we spar again on-scene at P. Giraldi's AIPAC exposure! Selah.

Replies: @Incitatus

Americans have a Jewish problem. It is THEIR problem, not of the Jews. What can they do to solve it? Simply cease listening to the Jews, cease groveling to AIPAC, declaring their eternal love for Israel and letting them dictate their policies. Indeed, America first. It is not Jewish interests that should be America's paramount interest. It is not Israel that should formulate American policies. Forbid the 'Lobby' (all lobbies for that matter). Close AIPAC.
Blame the bycicle-riders!

Replies: @Incitatus

If I moved around a lot and had had 20 different neighbors, all of whom hated me, I think I'd be a bit introspective.

Incitatus, what does resenting Jewish traitors and rabble rousers in America have to do with Nazis or the holocaust? I'm an American dealing with American issues, and we do have a very real Jewish problem. Americans have been very good to Jews, and this is what we get in return?

Guess what? I don't like Jews as a group. So what? I don't see them doing much good for America as a group, and I perfectly well understand why they have been shown the door and the sword so many times, by so many different peoples. If Jews were as traitorous, hostile and corrosive in Europe as they are in America (the holodomar shows that they were far worse, so far!) then I completely understand the desire to be rid of them, either voluntarily or by force if they refused to leave. No big deal. Whatever actually happened to Jews during WWII, I don't care. You can shove Auschwitz up your backside. That's exactly how I feel. To hell with you. To hell with AIPAC and Jewish SJWs. To hell with the so-called holocaust. To hell with Israel, and to hell with your tribe.

That's exactly how I feel, and I'm not a Nazi. I'm an American patriot. Next year in Washington!

Other Arab nations negotiating for Palestinians? Wouldn’t bet on it. Likud alliance with KSA? May not work out well. My opinion.
 

Palestinians’ biggest mistake? Allowing the PLO to cheer Saddam post Desert Storm. Many talented professionals I knew with in the Gulf were expelled stateless and unemployed. A great loss.
 

If there’s an answer, it’s between Israel and the Palestinians. Hard choices need to made by both. Does Israel want to expel Pals on camera as the world watches? Citing historic abuse (justified) while depriving fellow humans of their rights? I have no easy answers (wish I did).
 

Replies: @geokat62, @jacques sheete, @bjondo, @Incitatus

If there’s an answer, it’s between Israel and the Palestinians.

I agree. Why is the idea that all these Arab and Muslim countries have to be involved in negotiations assumed to be true? Is it just because they are in the region? Was Israel involved in the peace negotiations between Iran and Iraq? Iraq and Kuwait? Will they be involved in peace negotiations in Syria?

Replies: @Incitatus

Since the US insists on retaining the death penalty surely it should be employed in matters of treason even more than for murder? Most murderers kill but one person while traitors bring death and destruction to all of the nation.

Interestingly, Great Britain (I can't write that without snickering even though I was born and raised in GB) abolished the death penalty decades ago though I believe it remains on the books for treason (and for arson in the King's shipyards) though it is never applied. Surely Tony Blair has given cause for this to change?

There would be far less treachery if traitors, especially politicians, were executed promptly and publicly and a better world would result. Firing squads would be my recommendation.

Replies: @Incitatus

Jews may be American citizens. The problem starts when they are also citizens of another country and their loyalty goes first to that Fatherland, be it a physical or 'spiritual'. That was the dilemma of the Jews at all times.
Christian societies had problems not so much with the Jews (who were always granted the permission to practice their religion) but with the 'Judaizers' from among themselves, the ones who wanted to imitate the Jews and to be like them, believing that at the 'end of times' they would be admitted to the same benefits that the Jews believe God would shower only upon them. Those (innumerable) who believe like the televangelists that "our nation was founded as a haven of refuge for the Jewish people as they sought asylum from the rampant anti-Semitism of Europe. And because America received the Jewish people of the world, God richly blessed our nation... We must come back to the unconditional support of the nation of Israel; without it, our nation will be outside of the blessings of God now and forevermore! The Judgement of the Nations (Joel 3:2) is where God the Father will judge men and nations based on how they treated His brethren, the Jews. America must be on the right side of that Judgement; we have been warned by the Lord Himself!".
Those who "believe that "the Lord will bless those who bless Israel and curse those that curse His beloved people" (Russia and Iran hell-bent on destroying Israel- but don't worry, they will be utterly destroyed and the arch-villain Putler will have the fate of Haman, as Netanyahoo reminded Putin). You don't believe that the anti-Russian hysteria that sweeps America has other reasons.
Don't go to AIPAC meetings.

Replies: @annamaria

Keith says:


"Is it AIPAC and Israel ? Congress (They write the checks?) Our defense industries?
My bet's on the latter."


None of this corruption and transfer of American tax dollars to Israel and the defense industries would be possible without the Jewish mythology (God was in the real estate business and gave his chosen the cat litter box in Palestine).

My bet's on who writes the checks is the Protocol Elders oligarchs like Sheldson Adelson, a dual American and Israel citizen.

Here's how the influence is paid for: The Jewish oligarchs on Wall Street ( Many own a shit load of stock in defense industries) buy (donate to) our treasonous congressman and then Congress writes the checks for foreign aid to Israel. This is the sole purpose of AIPAC.. divert American taxes to finance war against against Israel's enemies in the Middle East. What does non Jews get
for their forced generosity? Terrorist blowback. Oh... I forgot about the Zionist main stream media, who decides who American enemies are with their incessant (Neo Con shills on MSM) warmongering.

Who are our enemies today? No, I mean, who does AIPAC say our enemies are?

Iraq, Libya, Syria, ... Iran.... Russia, and don't forget the homeless Palestinians.,


If ONLY Americans knew. This is why I write on the UNZ. Truly a bastion of freedom of speech.


Did you ever write to the Jewish ( Israel's gate keepers) New York Times, all the news your not allowed to print.... Or the Wall Street Jorunal. Reserved spots for the Jewish fifth column like
the Sam the Sham. Iffen, Incitatus Sherman and you only.

This is why America will never be Great Again. The Trojan horse (AIPAC) came through the gate
a long time ago.

Now, what do we do?

Replies: @iffen

Hahahaaaa. "Say hello to Jor-El ", loved that one.

“A person who does evil by reason of ignorance is less culpable than a person who, knowing evil, does so anyway?”

I don’t believe that. Ignorance isn’t an excuse, any more than ‘following orders’ was at Nüremberg. Each of us is responsible for our action. Each must be tireless in determining the morality of our action moment to moment.
 

Replies: @Incitatus

I am going to archive this one for the ages!

Doubled over, sides splitting.


HAHAHAHA

I am really thrilled by your words of appreciation! Of course, one must do a lot of research before talking about any subject.
To be true, I had written about the mystery of Luther's wiping in response to Anon's post. I was raising the question whether he wrote his theses on the paper he wiped himself with before or after his relieving revelation. But for mysterious reasons my post did not get through.
Of course it is worth continuing digging, you may find diamonds (like that lady survivor, the 'Diamond Girl' made famous by Spielberg's fictitious documentary "The Last Days" - btw, YouTube deleted the video of her 'testimony')!

Ich versuche. Vielen Dank an dich, Incitatus.

I am sure Iffen meant to press the 'Agree' button

InZitatus: "Taking the president's concerns into consideration. What's that mean?"

Hey Talha and InZit,

The U.S. Middle East foreign policy remains much the same since Israel's founding.

"Taking" Palestinian land means just that, "taking" it. There is no confusion, there's only phantom agreements/accords about making peaceful resolution.

To Talha (especially):

Below, I want to make a historic point which is largely forgotten:

In Kufah, 2004, Moqtada al-Sadr threatened armed opposition to the "occupation," and railed against U.S. administrator Paul Bremer's pronouncement that Islam would not be the main source of the new Iraqi constitution. What hubris eh, Talha?

"We want to advise everybody, Moqtada siad, "that the Iraqi people have the ability to attack theri enemies." After the interim constitution was signed, Moqtada blew a gasket, and compared it to the British Balfour Declaration (1917) which "sold off Palestine. We are on the way to selling Iraq and Islam. It is a bad omen."

Returning to Mr. G's topic, the U.S. government's legislative and executive branches having sold out to AIPAC and Neoconservatives is much > a "bad omen" for Americans.

Selah.

Replies: @Talha, @Incitatus

Hey Incitatus,

It just got worse
 

I also agree about the ‘67 border but increasingly doubt it will happen.
 

Appreciate your contrast of Salafis and Wahhabis
 

Replies: @Incitatus

Hey Incitatus,

Iraqis will neither forget or forgive in future, nor should they.
 

Replies: @Incitatus

Prologue: It's still Lent and I refrain from addressing you as "InZi."

Hey Incitatus,

First, I am happy to be involved with opportunities to make frank comments on The Unz Review, and reading those of others is often a meaningful learning experience.

Second, I would not participate in a Limbaugh "Dittohead" ordeal. Not even to "blow off steam" and bitch at him.

Third, where Sam Shama stands is very easy to figure. After survival of a few comment exchanges with S.S., one can determine "who and what" he is. (sigh) Jesus Christ said something rather important about human character when he noticed a man seated beneath a fig tree and stated, "He has no guile."

Again, with Shama, he has no guile & one can beneficially get to know who & what he is. (sigh) He takes off time for prayerful meditation and afterward he's right back to generating hasbara B.S., using King Midas-Madison Avenue language. Jesus kept trying to dialogue with "sinners who knew not what they do" until death, so who am I to stop rapping with Sam Shama?

Regrettable how I call him foul & funny names names, but I am only human.

Fourth, I turn to you, Imcitatus. You are a very smart, experienced and a weird dude to figure. At times you write with common sense and a conscience; for 1- example, comment # 225. However, there are recent episodes where you're talking about exceptional breeds of horses and doing man-bonding with Shama. That's cool.

However, your cute talking in foreign tongues did not fly very well with me, because I believe people who indulge that shit do so in order to make uni-linguists (here at Unz Review) look smaller and the two of you (in your own minds) subsequently look BIGGER.

Finally, as a child, I watched a popular weird TV program called "Mr. Ed, The Talking Horse." Mr. Ed always made a lot of sense and he was very funny. Baffled, I recall having asked my mother Mary, "Can horses really talk?" Perplexed, she evidently wanted to make this a teaching moment and Mary replied, "Well, I suppose nothing is impossible anymore in our country, Chuck, but try and not get taken in by Mr. Ed?"

Clop, clop..., going forward, Inci, I will keep "blinders" off and take your comments one-step at a time. Thanks and praise be to those who have "no guile.' ,

Replies: @Incitatus

(deliberate) attack on the USS Liberty ‘67

What do the parentheses mean? Why did you use deliberate? Of course it was deliberate. Are you trying to obscure the issue of mis-identification by using deliberate?

LBJ’s reaction was shameful.

Why was it shameful? Are you joining in with the warmonger, flag waving casket jumpers now?

Replies: @Chuck Orloski, @Incitatus

Iffen, you seem concerned with guilt and innocence. What do you think of the Mathers? Any problems with stretching the neck of a witch or two?

I think that I could have made it as a run-of-the-mill Puritan.

Although, I could just as easily have been strung up if I forgot myself and thought out loud.

Replies: @Incitatus

“Deliberate” was thus noted because I tried to make a larger point about Israel’s possible motive (mistrust after Suez). No question the attack was sustained and deliberate.

Motive?

Sustained and deliberate.
 

There was no motive.

It was a mistaken identification. A comedy of errors, miscalculations and supreme incompetencies coming together for a tragic outcome.

God Bless the men and their families who suffered the personal consequences.

The “attack” on the Liberty is a meme owned by 88s and assorted anti-Semites. If you want to reference the unfortunate incident, do so in a manner that honors the heroes of that tragdy and which does not lend support to the Jew-haters.

Replies: @Art, @Incitatus

I have pasted a comment that I copied from here at Unz. Unfortunately, I neglected to copy the commenter's id. I tried to find the comment thread in order to credit the source, but could not find it in the archives. Needless to say the commenter deserves the credit for the comment and not me.

As to LBJ's motives, I don't have a strong opinion except to say that I don't think it has any great significance. Perhaps he did wish to put the incident in the past and spare Israel the attention. Why did FDR turn away the St. Louis? Fear of anti-Semitic reaction in the US? Fear of encouraging anti-war sentiments? I think so, but how could I prove it?

One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the Israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty’s track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said.” This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt’s territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were un-interceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS’ orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty’s skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the “Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters … and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation.” (National Archives) That’s glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy’s attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel’s fears. There was a very real fear in the Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelis of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that “if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet.” The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty’s arrival in the area. That’s glitch number four.

By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o’clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft (“gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships”) 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking “GTR-5,” which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. It’s worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

At eleven o’clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn’t need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge – which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source – which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you’ll find it even if it isn’t there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire – a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn’t. Another grievous fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: “The coast is being shelled and you – the navy – have done nothing.” Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named “Pagoda,” to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots – which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic – and reckless. This commander interpreted “don’t shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots” as “fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots”. Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don’t really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don’t. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target’s speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref – D

Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 – putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a “Z” or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn’t have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck – good or ill – that they didn’t shoot up the Israeli FAC – they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty’s crew in “stand-down” mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelis were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attack was deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existent; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn’t jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The “jamming” was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots – lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots – meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 – 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 – 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning – in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn’t seem so easy does it? ref g

At this point the Israeli flagship signaled “AA” – “identify yourself.” Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence – Udi Erell’s father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle’s order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that “the Israelies must have known that”. Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir – but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty’s Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard – especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 – he wasn’t trying to find out “which ship is this” he was looking for “which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me”

The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw “GTR-5″ on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as “obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable”. By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals – cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak – Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP’s son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell’s chops. If it was a conspiracy they’d have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

References:

Ref a – Documents relating to the Liberty incident – papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn’t realize the impact of the matters he’s relating.

ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 – 67. 3 of Israel’s FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

ref h Captain McGonagle’s statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld’s sons have served in the IDF.

ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking – but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events – his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.

 

Replies: @Incitatus

Here is a piece of information that I did track down on my own. It is part of the litany that a Jewish officer on the Liberty saw the Star of David on the planes and cried. Of course, a different version is that the markings were concealed, or Russian, or Egyptian, depending upon your preferred flavor of 88 garbage propaganda.

Comment #270 links to Friendless Fire? by David C. Walsh.

I read the article by Walsh and here is a quote:

“The suggestion of prejudice especially upsets Jewish survivors, such as the senior engineering officer, George Golden…”

According to his online obituary:

George H. Golden, Jr., “was the engineering officer aboard the ill-fated USS Liberty” and was “a deacon at Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church.”
 

The author of the Liberty article is Stuart Slade. I still do not know the ID of the commenter that posted it at Unz.

"Launch an attack, win the war, make excuses later."

Incitatus,

After reading the sentence above, I saw where you are coming from and immediately, a "caution" light beamed.

Regarding the U.S.S. Liberty:

1. The Israelis opened fire upon this disproportionately undefended American recon ship and committed murder.

2. Israel was not at war with the United States.

3. Israel's excuses for the "monstrous" serial murder (committed at sea) were accepted by the LBJ administration who were turned into "monsters" in the service (& pay) of monstrous Zionists.

I do not like exchanging thought with you because of your (human) chameleon nature.

Pardon my penchant for trying to recognize B&W, light from darkness, but you are quite cunning and a skilled writer. Such are vital "human" elements that often provide monsters with great & perverse warmongering advantages. Economic advantages too.

A question. Does the abyss Zionists managed to impose upon America & the world ever gaze back at you and mutter, "This is war, sucker!"

Good night and good luck.

Replies: @L.K, @Incitatus

If you blame Israel for starting the war, I can see the logic in saying everything including the reckless mistakes was their fault. I haven't studied the war enough to weigh in on the just/unjust evaluation.

You seem increasingly Manichaaein.

Actually I'm pretty much a continuum person. I just can't see a lot of wiggle room with items like Holocaust denial.

Bad mouth Israel all you want, just do it on the same basis that you condemn other counties, not because Israel is full of Jews.

Replies: @Incitatus

Facts are stubborn things. Why no finding of fault or penalties for those responsible?

Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak – Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP’s son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell’s chops. If it was a conspiracy they’d have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.
 

Not you as in moi, anybody. Criticize Israel all you want:

just do it on the same basis that you condemn other counties, not because Israel is full of Jews.
 

Don't hold your breath.

I raised some of the same topics at comment #243.

Maybe geo, who "loves" PG, will take a shot at Dissident's and Incitatus's questions.

Then maybe not, he is big on questions and small on answers.

Hi Incitatus, Iffen et al

Missed a few sparky days I see :-)

(Miami draws me for a week or so) .

I await as well - eagerly - for Phil Giraldi's answers.

Replies: @iffen, @Incitatus

Hello Incitatus,

I am pleased to meet you and I thank you for your kind words. I am glad you appreciated my questions for Mr. Giraldi. Reading the hostile replies that were made in response to my comment, I would have thought those who wrote them were responding to something entirely different than anything that I had actually written. ("Your attempt to frame Mr. Giraldi as a Nazi Holocaust denier...") {sigh}{rolls eyes} I see little point in responding to attacks of that nature. If anyone, after reading my comment, found the attacks on it credible, then it is nearly impossible for me to imagine that there is anything that I or anyone else could write that would convince such a person otherwise. I am confident, however, that for anyone reasonable who had read my comment, no such response would be necessary, as the absurdity of the attacks would immediately be glaringly obvious. A case of odder darft nisht, odder helft nisht, as (((we))) would say.

I had a look at your comment history page and I must say that I was impressed with what I read. Like a number of other commenters who have caught my attention here, you come across as an intelligent, conscientious, well-read, witty individual. One who has demonstrated a notable degree of independent and critical thought. There is silver, gold and sometimes even pure platinum to be found here at Unz, no question. The problem, of course, is all the dross, mud and worse that one must sift through in order to find and benefit from the valuable content.

In calling this situation tragic, I do not think I am indulging in melodrama or hyperbole. It is not the commenters, deplorable (truly) as some of them are, that worry and trouble me most here. It is, by far, the presence of at least one of the featured authors, that one being none other than Israel Shamir. Admittedly, I have read very little from this individual but what I have read still has me reeling: Reviving blood libels. Seriously? Although obviously at a higher intellectual level, Shamir reminds me of that rabid character "Brother Nathaniel" who posts his incoherent, foaming ravings on YouTube. Now, the term "self-hating Jew" may be overused, perhaps often tendentiously so but in this case, it is difficult to imagine anyone sane and reasonable disputing its suitability for the aforementioned two individuals (assuming, in the case of Shamir, that he was, in fact, born a Jew. I saw a comment from someone claiming that Shamir's claim of being born a Jew is merely part of a false persona that he crafted for himself.) Do the responsible, reasonable featured writers here not realize how damaging the presence of someone such as Shamir is to the views they represent and those who hold them? Do the responsible and reasonable writers even know that their work is appearing alongside that of the likes of Shamir? I want to be able to send people here but how can I when they are likely to encounter something like that?

I am sorry about the loss of your parents and, especially, the difficulty that you described of their last days. I lost my father nearly eighteen months ago and miss him greatly. A secular Jew, my father was an ardent Zionist throughout his life. Initially embracing with ardor the Zionism I was raised with, it gradually became less important to me as my religious interest and observance (Judaic) increased. Eventually, I came to completely reject the former on theological grounds. I later came to have additional problems with Zionism and the State of Israel.

I'm sure all the regulars here will be familiar with the Camp David Summit in 2000, the event in which Bill Clinton (ostensibly, at least) tried but ultimately failed to broker a peace agreement between Yasser Arafat and then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. During that event (at least, I'm pretty sure that was the one but if not, it was a previous, similar attempt during the Clinton Presidency), as the world anxiously awaited news of the outcome of the ongoing negotiations, my father told me something that left a deep and lasting impression on me. "What the Palestinians are asking for is not unreasonable.", declared my father. He then added, "Believe me, if we were Palestinians, we would want no less." My father, you will remember, was an ardent Zionist.

I hope I haven't bored you but in case I have, you'll no doubt be relieved to hear that I must be going. Before I leave, however, one last thing, which will allow me to end on a lighter note.

I enjoyed the facetious reference that I found in one of your past comments to the infamous Uriah Heep. Heep, the ever-so-very "humble" character from Dickens' David Copperfield, was the type of character that the late Bob Grant, a true icon of talk radio from the days when it was still an art form, would have called a "fake, phony fraud" (or a "fake, phony, two-bit fraud".) I've become a great fan of Dickens, having listened to mp3 recordings of several of his novels being masterfully read by volunteers thanks to the wonderful Librivox(.org) project. For the versions of David Copperfield, as well as Oliver Twist that I listened-to, the reader was a British gentleman named Tadg Hynes. Hynes was quite good. In his own right, perhaps even excellent. But the absolute greatest, of the Dickens readers I've heard so far, has to be Mil Nicholson. A British actress currently living in the U.S., Nicholson was the reader for the versions of Oliver Twist and Nicholas Nickleby that I listened-to. And she was nothing short of superb. Magnificent. I would urge anyone who appreciates Dickens to search for her recordings of his works and sample one. All Librivox recordings are in the Public Domain and available to stream or download free-of-charge. (Of course, nothing is actually free, so anyone who benefits from the project and is in a position to donate money or volunteer to read or perhaps in some other way, would do well to do one or more of those.)

Well, I've got to run. Take care and I hope we will meet again before long. Note that with Passover rapidly approaching, I may not be around over the next few days*. And in general, I can often get delayed, at times excessively so, in keeping-up with/ responding-to comments. That, combined with the fact that writing can be difficult and inordinately time-consuming for me, means that it should never be assumed that I am deliberately ignoring someone, or even that I didn't see and read a response, simply because I have not responded to it.

Best,

Dissident

*I would throw in a sarcastic remark here about what the estimable Israel Shamir might claim was the "real" reason for my anticipated imminent absence but I fear that someone might take it out context.

Replies: @Dissident, @Talha, @Incitatus, @iffen

Here's the official UN press release.

Chemical-Weapons Attack.....
Syria’s Representative Says His Country Faces Twin-Aggression by Permanent Members, Terrorists Enjoying Their Support
https://www.un.org/press/en/2017/sc12777.doc.htm

Part of Statement by LIU JIYEI (China):
"....comments by the United Kingdom’s representative were not to be tolerated, adding that his statement did not “hold water”. China hoped that delegate would stop abusing the Council because such actions were not in the interest of Syrians."

Replies: @Incitatus

"our politicians and media" are the result of careful selection, when the principled and independent-minded have been carefully weeded out. The "cultivators" forgot that their own well-being depends on the latter kind. It seems that unless the "cultivators" kids start dying out of the US-provoked wars and their unintended consequences, the stupid order (of ambitious opportunists) will continue to persist. If the CIA suddenly has a choice of competent and honest personnel, the organization would reject the choice in horror because that would mean the end of free lunch for the "deciders" and their operatives down the ladder. They thrive on thievery and lies.

I hadn't read the article The War to End All Peace prior to reading this comment so I'm reading it now, thanks. Would you kindly point out for me that information which you consider to be false or fabricated in it? Thanks again.

But I doubt Geo would have worked for IG Farben or the SS.

I don't know. I don't know about myself. Knowledgeable people who know about such things tell us that we can't know until it is real and we are confronted with the choices. Even then we may stand tall many days only to finally run away.

Geo is permanently peeved at me for tossing him into the 88 bin early on. An error on my part it seems. I retracted, but he still wants me to appear in sackcloth and ashes every so often and beg forgiveness. He never trusted me in my comments and I returned the favor, not a lot to talk about in that situation.

I frequently find myself guilty of faults that I complain about in other people. Is that just me or does it happen to others?

The commissar order was a directive to shoot on sight Red Army political officers. A war crime, no doubt, but it's difficult to feel much sympathy for the affected parties. Why did you bring it up? No one disputes that war on the eastern front was ugly stuff.

Replies: @L.K

Keith says:


This is my original thought. Before asking for evidence to support murder by gassing with
Zyklon B at the labor camps, I whispered to myself :

The Unz Zionists will not be able to produce the evidence, evidence needed in all murder cases
to convict the perpetrator with irrefutable proof. Why? They don't have proof.

Zionists don't need proof. It is so, because the say it so, by repeating the lie over and over again since the late 1800s.

The Zionists know they are living in the last days of the big lie and now are realizing
their Holocaust indoctrination hasn't been totally successful. For this reason they are desperate and need laws to protect the BIG LIE.


They will do what the always do; personally attack the person (Keith) for asking original questions regarding the Holoax. Questions they can't answer.


BELIEVE ME, if they COULD they would.

REMINDER: The subject is AIPAC is in town. As always, a small % of Jewish Zionists
work hard to dominate the dialogue. They have successfully diverted the dialogue away from the subject and turned it into a Jewish Hasbara chat room.

What is a Jew
Who is a Jew
Conversion to the Jewish faith
Away for sabbath
Away on vacation to Miami, little Tel Aviv


Time for me to move to "Trump goes Jewish NeoCon crazy". I what to see what the 88s have to say.

I wonder why the affliction of AntiSemetism still exists? Unknown malady or known reasons?


Will any Hasbara provide a answer to this original thought?

Replies: @Incitatus

Classic hasbara Zionist shill textbook response:

1.- Frame the Zionist Lobby issue (AKA Jewish lobby in Israel and Israel lobby in the US) as "It is the old usual tired baggage is all the fault of Jews, etc." with a classic strawman

You retail the usual tired baggage. It – fill in the blank – is all the fault of Jews, etc. No surprise you do it masked without history and confrontation.
 

Indications are you’re a coward, text thief, and intellectually vacuous bigot. Some might conclude your monthly supply of viagra arrived and you felt you had to post appreciation.
 

My hunch is (like Alien) you have an inner Semite that’s fighting to express itself. Don’t disappoint me.
 

Replies: @Incitatus

Thank you for taking the time to write a lengthy reply. As far as Tony Blair goes, I truly hate him. I am all for him being put on trial for war crimes then Hanged, publicly. I hope his legacy is that people forever more will spit when speaking his name and that his name becomes one to be used like the name Judas, a liar (He already has that, Tony Bliar) a betrayer and a man without morals or shame.

America was wobbling on going to war against Iraq, GWB couldn't sell it until Blair came and addressed both houses. I watched it with a tough old Marine vet who'd served in Vietnam and whom I'd met and befriended. That old Marine was thumping his chest with pride as Blair extolled the greatness and purpose of America, until it dawned on him that Blair was selling another war. He wept openly. He was one of the funniest people I've ever met and surprisingly well read. he didn't want a new generation to suffer like his did and he died soon afterwards. He drowned his pain in booze and was ultimately another casualty of that stupid, evil conflict, 50 years later. I do really, really hate Blair.

Replies: @Incitatus

Keith says:

I notice you conviently forgot to mention the role the Jewish Zionists played in the " War to end all peace". The same role the Jewish NeoCons are playing today in the wars in the Middle East.

Let's look at the Jewish war booty (Jewish homeland in Palestine) they received for their enormous financial and media support they gave to Great Britain and the allies.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_john.html

Hon. Alfred J. Balfour (1838-1930) offered Palestine as a national home for the Jews
in 1917, as a price for getting the United States of America into the war.

The Germans learned about who "stab them in the back" when they signed and took total responsibility for the war at the Versailles Treaty. At the signing there was a contingent of Zionist Jews making sure they got their war prize.

The citizens who pushed out the politicians at the Versailles Treaty, weren't just ordinary German and US citizens.

They were Jewish bankers, Felix and Paul Warburgs. War is a racket. The capitalists on Wall Street and London had to get someone to pay for the war loans. This is why Germany had to pay devastating war reparations.

You also forgot to mention the role the German Jewish and Russian Bolsheviks communists
(Rosa Luxemburg and her Jewish dominated Spartacus Bund) played in Germany's defeat.

To show my support for Israel's defense. I strongly support the push to draft Orthodox Jews into the IDF. Hopefully, Israelis will be in the front lines to fight in their planned war with Iran.

Hi Incitatus,
As concise a precis of the reasons for WWs (and other before), one might strive to pack in a single comment. I appreciated your evenhanded exposition of circumstances fomented by Wilhelmine Germany, rather cloddishly(?) executed by Hindenburg and Ludendorff. Ludendorff of course thought it was going to be a repeat of Tannenberg to the very end.

Germany's festering envy of the U.K and France, and, as you point out, her geographic placement required all these interlocking agreements, which, she among all nations, violated first and thus bears the greater part of the blame if that is what we are going to apportion.

You'll notice the proposal to address questions concerning Zionists obtaining the 'Balfour Declaration,' the part they played at Versailles has been made. I could attempt to answer them, but I fear it would be more of a riposte than anything else. So, in the interest of objectivity, I cannily place myself on the fence and await your response.

Best

Replies: @Incitatus, @L.K

"Why did most Prussians (including my great grandfather) emigrate to the US in the 19C? To escape being cannon fodder for German militarism."

This crap is good for another big laugh! German "militarism" does not even begin to compare to British, Zamerican, Russian or French militarism.
All one has to do is compare the number of wars the Germans were involved in to those of other major powers, all of which were true, real Empires. All these were involved in warfare a lot more than the Germans.
The country your alleged grandfather left for, ZUSA, has been at war for 93% of its existence and currently is a serious threat to life on Earth.
You are a pathetic, sad little liar.

Replies: @Incitatus

"I think Raul Hilberg is most reliable (sorry again – he’s – dare I say it – Jewish). He’s augmented by most independent, reputable historians."

pffffHAHAHAHHAHAHA, shit, you fuckers are such jokers!
Hilberg?? The poor bastard was destroyed by the holohoax revisionists! Reduced to the 'holohoax' was carried out by telepathy' nonsense. 'Independent' historians??? pfffhhahahahaha
Thanks again for the big laughs!
:-)

Replies: @Sam Shama

Keith Says:

"You don't need any Persians - you do it to yourself".

In a court of law -I would stand up and say "I Object!"

Why can't you just for once not attack the person who has boxed you into a
corner?

Why can't you provide a direct response. I am only asking for evidence in the Alleged biggest
murder case in history.... and All I get from you is personal attacks. Why?

Why? The same reason why the Jews in the Shoah business push for laws criminalizing
the free speech rights of people who challenge the HOLOHOX.

I don't lose sleep at night thinking about the Big Lie. I lose sleep when
our Zio warmongers create a new Frankenstein (Hitler)... who is it now ? Assad, Putin? and start wars. The Jewish NeoCons are putting all humanity in danger. A good reason to lose sleep.

The unreliable Raul Hildberg didn't provide any autopsies to support
industrilized mass murder, why should I expect to get any from you and your band of propagandists? All I expect, and get, is personal attacks.

The Jewish Zionists tricks, they do it all the time. They don't work.

Keith says:

" Many attemp to cast it as vile conspiracy."

Why would anyone think it was a vile conspiracy? The most important question is, who was the conspiracy against?

Great business/military decision by the British and the Zionists. Give creds when Cred is do!
I fully understand.

A Balfour declaration documentary that covered it, in detail. NEVER on a American
Network?

Israeli and the Jewish press have very friendly free speech freedom when reporting on Israel and Jewish affairs. Not so in America. It wasn't taught in American NY high schools.

I would bet that most Americans have no knowledge of the declaration, and know why their country is fighting in the Middle East. If only Americans knew!

I hope this covered your, The Balfour Declaration "was pretty well Known" NOPE"

sorry... have to move on and be less long winded.

THE SPOILS OF WAR.......who actually made a bad deal and who was the conspiracy against?

The Spoils of War went to the Zionists and Great Britain lost their empire. After the U.K. pulled the European Jews's chestnuts out of the fire, after the war the British were being murdered in Israel by Zionists. Remember, the birth place of modern day terrorism is Israel. The King David Hotel was attacked by Zionists terrorists and brought down by demolition, killing British citizens. The Zionists dressed as Arabs when planting the bombs in their False Flag attack. Sound familiar?

I know .... I Know .. move on, and end. I could go on and on, on this important subject forever.

Today, Great Britain looks at Germany with great envy. The U.K. is a country full of doubt, instead of full of themselves. Brexit is the symptom of doubt.

All the Balfour Declaration did was hasten the downfall of the Empire "The Sun Never Sets" it does now!

Good read: Hitler, Churchill and the Unecessary War, buy author, Pat Buchanan.

In both WW1 and WW2, Great Britain made the wrong deals with the wrong people. This is were the conspiracy comes in: Who was forcing the had of the British leadership during both wars? Walter Rothschilds.

Who is forcing the hand in the U.K. today? FFI is just a hint. The conspiracy is still against the British People.

Bad News: The same conspiracy is against the American people. AIPAC, NeoCon foreign policies, resulting in wars.

I know, Shit Happens. Remember, when shit happens to you, it isn't nice. You should have learned something from the wars?

Replies: @Sam Shama

Hey Incitatus,

You mentioned Goering. I've been a big fan of Richtofen since I was a kid - I did a report on him when I was in grade school. He remains a hero of mine. Goering ended up taking over the elite 'Flying Circus' squadron in WW1.

Part of me is torn in wondering what would have happened had the Red Baron lived into WW2. There is no doubt in my mind that he would have been asked to lead the Luftwaffe if not already in charge. Would he have eventually sat in the chair Goering sat in at Nuremburg?

His personality was different than Goering's for sure - but one wonders...

Peace.

Replies: @Incitatus, @Anon, @Talha

‘From the Hague’?? pffffHAHAHAHAHAHA
sniff, sniff, I smell desperation and.... BS.
Neither the clown ‘From the Hague’ nor you and you little lame gang of zionist propagandists have ever laid a hand on me. Ever.
I noticed you avoided van Pelts' interview and other stuff that was fully sourced but tried to nitpick something re the quotes from that miserable shabbos goy, Browning, and another one from Pelt. You should not have. Christopher Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942 (University of Nebraska Press and Yad Vashem :-) , 2004), p.544 note.169:“...the testimonies of especially Höss and to some extent Eichmann are confused, contradictory, self-serving, and not credible.” I woudn't say self-serving, but the rest is correct. Now, for the serial plagiarist, Robert Jan van Pelt, 'The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial', p.5:
"The evidence for the role of Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor[...] is much less abundant(than Auschwitz)."There are very few eyewitnesses, no confession that can compare to that given by Höss, no significant remains, and few archival sources."
Jan van Pelt has however admitted in an interview to the Canadian STAR, 27 December 2009, that “We have no material or forensic evidence to support eyewitness reports of gassings…
Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove. So, the evidence for Auschwitz is next to nothing - plus there is abundant evidence refuting the hoax - but the evidence for the Aktion Reinhardt camps is, according to Pelty himself, even much less than at Auschwitz, which is close to zero. It should be noted that the holohoax is essentially based on lie-witness, ahem, eyewitness testimony, either captured SS camp personnel or former inmates. As I said, Höss testimony is complete nonsense and the reason is that the man was tortured into 'confessing'. How do I know? For one thing bc Höss himself wrote about it before execution - he was tortured by the brits and the Poles - but also, because confirmation has come with the publication in England of a book containing the name of the chief torturer, a British sergeant, and a description by the torturer of the circumstances of Höss’s arrest, as well as his torture. The book is 'Legions of Death' by Rupert Butler, published in 1983.

Fun to watch inZitatus' total meltdown!!
Bottom line; you got nothing, scumbag! But we both already knew that!
:-)

We’re all concerned for you.

No we're not.

Replies: @Incitatus

What are your thoughts on Albert Speer? I thought he came across as a decent person.

Whatever one feels about the most prominent personalities of WWII on either side, it is hard not to draw the conclusion that both of the world wars were engineered to rearrange the "chessboard" in the "great game of global domination and those engineers escaped with their lives, their fortunes (usually enhanced) and their reputations intact while millions (80 -90?) on both sides perished.

Replies: @Incitatus, @L.K

As always - thanks for the insights.

But it’s not unconflicted.
 

Replies: @L.K

Hey, old boy,

I've really shaken that old cage of yours, eh?
You are good for a laugh!
:-)

Well, that 'nonsense' pisses you off and drives you crazy, it is so obvious, and the best part is, it comes largely from 'reputable' holoHoax sources!! :-)
Who's afraid of Holohoax Revisionism? inZitatus is. So are iffen-iffen, shama and co.
Who is against free speech & free inquiry? The same gang. iffen even openly asked for ZUSA to adopt the same Thought crime laws that have been passed in many European countries.
Your buddy iffen really cares about the 6 trillion joos but that is about it... in a recent article by Margolis, this vermin casually said that ZUSA should nuke the North Koreans! What a great chicken-hawk, certainly never saw a day in uniform, not even the idf one! hahaha
Sam the sham, your other buddy, a great human being, has casually discussed how to best ethnically cleanse most of those remaining Palestinians whom your israeli heroes failed to expel before, and they expelled a lot of them! Not enough, says the shameless, let's take some of them to Egypt, Jordan, wherever! Your buddy even tried to justify the jailing of 88 year old ,Ursula Haverbeck, in the freest Germany of all time(!) for the horrendous crime of holohoax 'denial'!
What? Cannot win in the marketplace of ideas, use intimidation and censorship, why not!
Keep it coming, inZi, you guys are truly pathetic.

We have to keep up the communication pressure, until we get them before a firing squad.