RSSLiberal Baptists (they did exist) went extinct a long time ago.
american baptists are still around. and in any case, there is a liberal minority in the southern baptist convention (or was until they started leaving a few years back like carter).
don’t try to bullshit me. it annoys me.
The fact is that the laity and priesthood practice different faiths.
this would be taken for granted in a fashion for pre-moderns.
i have the book. a lot of it makes sense. we’ll see if it is true…
North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.
The important point here is that initially developed cultural folkways can be persistent and reinforcing. The author observes that Nordic immigrants seem to have almost invariably chosen the region of the American frontier dominated by a Yankee ethos, the Upper Midwest. Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism).
North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.
can you count? north dakota has a pop of less than 1 million. use english normally, that’s not a ‘big wrench.’
In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities.
you are throwing terms around incoherently. new england yankees in rural areas are also conservative. as my previous post indicates, there are different types of conservatism. i don’t mean progressive in the sense of of modern american politics.
Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on.
this deterministic account is too simple. swedes started in delaware, and that’s where the log cabin began with finns.
the anti-slavery affinities of german protestants and other northern europeans are well attested in any history.
this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.
Oh have a heart. In the last few weeks the only free time I have to comment coincides with the only free time I have to drink a beer or three. I'm training for a new job and I have three kids from age 2-11 plus an ornery wife.
this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.
there are probably some.
i have read that book http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2009/09/whos-barbarian-now-empires-of-silk-road.php
are you just not very intelligent, or you don’t read the posts you comment on as a matter of course?
sep issues
1) people we’d define as ‘white’ started to have contact with people we’d define as proto-chinese 4,000 years ago
2) people we’d define as ‘greek’ probably did have contact with han ~2,000 years ago or earlier
3) these people probably did influence culture in various ways
4) people we’d define as ‘western’ probably didn’t show up until 1000 AD or so, in part because ‘western’ makes sense as a term only around that period
5) i’d bet the greeks who arrived didn’t come from greece proper, but the diaspora to the east in the persian empire, and bractro and indo-greeks
<iAs for the Tocharians, didn’t they speak a Centum language? If so, maybe they did come all the way from Europe proper. Perhaps the Pannonian Basin or thereabouts, from where it would be a straight shot across the steppe to the Tarim Basin.
no one thinks the centum/satem distinction means what you think. also, my understanding is that they don’t have haplogroup I. that’s a tell for a european group.
Where does the 3000 year figure come from? Your link mentions two points dated to the First Emperor.
contacts with western looking people can be gleaned as early as 1000 BCE depending on how you interpret references to certain barbarians.
If Greek sculptural styles reached China 100 years after Alexander’s death, that sounds very fast to me. It sounds like the movement of people, not just ideas.
as noted by others, probably includes people who arrived via persia. chariots probably came from middle east via central asia, so this is not new.
literally LOL.
you should see the 50% of the comments from this guy i don’t post…
stupid. intermarriage rates quite high for 1.5 & 2nd gen.
The thesis about Puritanism might have certain elements, but if they are there I think they’re a bit more indirect. Early Mormonism is much more driven by converts from the more Arminian tradition rather than the Calvinist tradition. (A large conversion of Cambellites who largely followed Wesley’s type of Arminianism set the tone for early Mormonism prior to the move to Illinois)
i’m to understand that joseph smith himself flirted with the ‘universalist’ movement.
i am aware that mormons are not calvinists. but when i say ‘puritan’ i don’t mean a theological position. after all, most unitarian-universalist churches in new england used to be congregationalist churches, and the transcendalists came out of the puritan milieu. rather, my assertion is that early mormonism can be understood as an extension of a yankee ethos, which can be seen in many of the movements from the burnedover district.
second, yes, i’m aware of the conversions in england (and also large #s of migrants from scandinavia) to the early church in part because of you. but it seems likely that they would attract the sort of people who reinforce, rather than diminish, the ethos of the early church.
For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.
Actually, it hasn’t been debunked. Rather, through a set of common talking points and empirical shell games Asian American achievement is masked, obfuscated, and explained away. This is not to say that Asian Americans have not, and do not, experience racism.
For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.
sort of. but the sophisticated argument almost always goes to facts like….
1) southeast asian refugees
2) asian americans make less $ per year of education
3) asian american higher workforce participation results in higher household income than should be….
4) cost of living higher in CA, mitigating higher income
etc. etc.
basically, it’s a way to just diminish the ‘model minority’ aggregate statistics. some of these are valid, but some of them are not. a lot of the ‘model minority’ myth literature also cites the same studies over and over, because they fit the narrative.
In the movie Eastwood's character was talking to Hmong kids. He obviously can't tell Asians apart or knows about the IQ differences as you go up the epicanthic totem pole, from Hmong & Cambodian up to Korean & Japanese.Replies: @Razib Khan
"I thought you slopes were good in math."
..."I thought you Asian girls were supposed to be smart."
stupid. the genetics is clear, the hmong are recent migrants from central china. they don’t have much austric admixture at all, unlike lowland pops.
the title is loaded, and my rxn was the same. whites were never more than ~25% of s. africa’s population. the most pessimistic interpretation of ‘white’ doesn’t put them below 50% for 1.5 generations, and even then they’ll be by far the largest community. if you’re going to make an analogy use one that doesn’t undermine you from the beginning.
That's because "Korea" and "Japan" did not exist when the Yamato state was founded.
To be fair, around the time of Japan’s state founding, up to a third of the population could have been Korean/Chinese immigrants, although the distinction between “Korean” and “Japanese” were not as clear as people think today.
yes
Once I asked a local in Western Washington what the difference was between Washingtonians and Oregonians. His answer? "We like Asians in Washington. They don't in Oregon."Replies: @Razib Khan, @Bill P
Right, some of eastern Oregon has a Southern feel to it.
oregon was historically more racist overall. black musicians who played in portland had to stay in hotels across the river in vacounver, WA. black musicians going by train from seattle to california also had to accept that they wouldn’t get lodgings overnight if they stopped in oregon.
The cultural and linguistic obliteration of Tidewater is deeply sad to me, in part because my older children* grew up and learned to speak as babies there. They still have more than a trace of this accent: https://youtu.be/1RzVKCWXrRA
The current Mormon alliance is mainly with the Scots-Irish and the Deep South, as Tidewater is disappearing.
Ever read Sometimes a Great Notion? That attitude is captured very well in the descriptions of Oregon settlers' views concerning both blacks and Southerners. I've run into it up here in exurban/rural Western Washington as well -- even today. People are not so friendly toward blacks, and they're at least as hostile to white Southerners. They seem to think anyone with that accent is a degenerate or an imbecile.
additionally, there is the fact that many anti-slavery people were as anti-black, or more so, than people that accepted the institution. e.g., my home state of oregon was founded explicitly as a non-slave white state.
well, some areas of oregon were settled by people from the south, so i don’t know. but yes, there is prejudice against southern people from what i’ve seen, though that happens in much of the urban west.
but there’s a reason the cities are named ‘portland’ and ‘salem.’
re: slavery & racism, people are trapped into a progressive model of history. the reality is from a modern perspective there was a ‘recession’ between 1800 and 1860, especially, in the south. then, there was a secondary recession between 1875 and the early 1900s.
additionally, there is the fact that many anti-slavery people were as anti-black, or more so, than people that accepted the institution. e.g., my home state of oregon was founded explicitly as a non-slave white state.
Ever read Sometimes a Great Notion? That attitude is captured very well in the descriptions of Oregon settlers' views concerning both blacks and Southerners. I've run into it up here in exurban/rural Western Washington as well -- even today. People are not so friendly toward blacks, and they're at least as hostile to white Southerners. They seem to think anyone with that accent is a degenerate or an imbecile.
additionally, there is the fact that many anti-slavery people were as anti-black, or more so, than people that accepted the institution. e.g., my home state of oregon was founded explicitly as a non-slave white state.
cotton gin + rise of a universalist white consciousness in the south (and to some extent the whole USA) during age of jackson.
The reason you don’t see many Southerners calling themselves “English” is because most of them would choose “American” or “Southern” as their ethnicity.
why are you telling me this? i’ve blogged this.
My pet theory is that the Scots Irish are actually descended from the north Brythonic speaking people, AKA the Picts. Many of their surnames, such as Knox, Wallace and Abercrombie strongly suggest this to be the case.
no, not picts technically. probably the northern britons who were part of the kingdom of rheged and later became the rump of strathclyde (cumbria obviously cognate to cymru). the pictish lands were further north, and generally those areas never under roman domination.
Missed that one.
why are you telling me this? i’ve blogged this.
You're right, not technically Picts as in straight line from Picts to Scots Irish, but certainly they contributed to the people now known as Scots Irish (Edinburgh was a major Pictish center back in Roman times). "Scots Irish" as an ethnicity is as much a product of religion as ancestry/geography. If any man created a Scots Irish identity, it was John Knox. Ironically, they were as Calvinist as the Puritans, but obviously a very different people. I don't think their reputation as a bunch of louts is deserved. If anything, they were hated because they were so militant, and because of that people were scared of them.
no, not picts technically. probably the northern britons who were part of the kingdom of rheged and later became the rump of strathclyde (cumbria obviously cognate to cymru). the pictish lands were further north, and generally those areas never under roman domination.
yeah, i saw that in the reread. that wasn’t correct to write.
but in the original comment you seemed to assert that *albion’s seed* said that. it didn’t.
the carolina planters from carib. also somewhat later in time than the other migrations, right? didn’t a lot of it happen after 1800, with french leaving haiti and british abolition of slavery in 1830s?
a few points
1) some ppl on this blog have pointed out that in places like w. virginia there are lots of ppl from england proper
2) ‘scots-irish’ does not obviously mean just ulster. includes those coming directly from south scotland/north england
3) *albion’s seed* does not say that scots-irish = the south. the lowland cavalier culture is important, and shaped the ‘bourbon’ elite a lot. but for whatever reason it hasn’t captured the national imagination.
the interp. dump/anachronistic, yes.
Ambush is offense. Put another way, tactical offense, strategic defense.
i would say defense. but depends on how you define defense. e.g., i would count finding and beating up the kid who called me a ‘sand nigger’ in gym class defense. but it might seem offensive since i waited until after school ended so as not to be disruptive (i just made sure to tail him after the last period).
yes. eastern oregon.
Offense or defense?Replies: @Razib Khan
plenty.
i would say defense. but depends on how you define defense. e.g., i would count finding and beating up the kid who called me a ‘sand nigger’ in gym class defense. but it might seem offensive since i waited until after school ended so as not to be disruptive (i just made sure to tail him after the last period).
Ambush is offense. Put another way, tactical offense, strategic defense.
i would say defense. but depends on how you define defense. e.g., i would count finding and beating up the kid who called me a ‘sand nigger’ in gym class defense. but it might seem offensive since i waited until after school ended so as not to be disruptive (i just made sure to tail him after the last period).
Have you ever been in a fight? That is, a physical altercation?
I’m rather aggressive
This is exceedingly common in the field of history. So much of history as a discipline is devoted to - anachronistically and retrospectively - looking at the past through today's framework, because the real goal of the producers of such "history" is not to discover the true nature of the past through an objective lens but to remake today in accord with the philosophies of the said historians. This tendency infects every sub-genre within the field of history, including what once was my own - military history.Replies: @Talha, @Razib Khan
That is, it’s importance was not as a narrative about the historical past, but possibilities for narrative frameworks relevant for organizing the political present.
Have you ever been in a fight? That is, a physical altercation?
plenty.
Are there population structure tools that automate the identification of likely outliers or hidden structure starting from an initial imperfectly accurate grouping of individuals into populations the way you might by hand with a PCA?
finestructure includes a lot of the stuff u r talking about
i’m much more forgiving in real life. or at least that’s what people who know me ‘on blog’ and off socially have told me. e.g., a scientist i know thought i’d be much more ‘severe’ than i was. i look young for my age, and act young for my age too fwiw.
but then, i don’t know what you think of me. #shrug
Asians who oppose OiYan Poon's policies are basically recent Chinese immigrants.Replies: @Razib Khan
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/december-13/mapping-mindsets.html
Recently, we tested approximately 400 undergraduates at an elite American university. About half of them were of European descent, while the remaining half were native Asians, none of whom had spent more than 7 years in the US at the time. They filled out a series of self-report scales designed to assess their self-perception, self-esteem, and other aspects of independence, as well as their sense of interdependence. Replicating many previous studies, we found that European Americans were both more independent and less interdependent compared to Asians. Importantly, this cultural difference was quite pronounced for those Asians and European Americans who carried a high-dopamine variant of DRD4. In fact, among non-carriers of these high dopamine gene variants, the cultural difference was absent. It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture
Asians who oppose OiYan Poon’s policies are basically recent Chinese immigrants.
that’s what poon says. she provides no evidence. and frankly neither to do you, but that’s par for the course in your case.
Fair enuf.
the latter. and i always believed this. but reading ‘post modern’ stuff in the original makes it more clear to me why this set of thinkers and people influenced by this thought seem to abrogate all rules of dialogue so casually (this is not a feature of what i may perhaps term the ‘positivist left,’ which includes most scientists).
Rock stars and reality TV stars, with their massive audiences, have a huge advantage over the intelligentsia.
pop culture is a reflection of high culture. the views of pop culture now reflect a lot of critical race theory.
I think the NYT incident is a signal that any attempt to side with the left probably won’t work
why would i side with the left? i’m on the right, and always have been. your comment misunderstands what i’m saying if you think i’m looking for a side. i have a side. it’s just not a totalistic or very important aspect of my personality.
Your best bet is to try to catch on as “articulate token brown guy” at one of the bigger conservative websites like Breitbart
best bet for what? do you even know what i do for most of my life? it’s not write stuff on the internet.
Are you reversing Voltaire's maxim? They believe absurdities to signal that they will commit atrocities? This seems different from the rest of your post, which seems to be saying that people believe absurdities because they are convenient excuses for favoring their team in the short term; in contrast to believing absurdities to increase asabiyah. They could both be true, but it seemed like a jump to a different topic in the last paragraph.Replies: @Razib Khan
They believe because it is absurd.
my understanding is that the current rwandan gov. wants to deemphasize hutu/tutsi differences. years ago i looked at the 23andMe genotype of someone who was 1/2 tutsi. they were shifted strongly toward cushitic populations in proportion to their admixture.
yes, there are samples.
ideological reasons hard to get some samples from those two populations.
we don’t know. i’m skeptical. the real thing is masking of deleterious alleles, not heterosis.
we’re not het on .7 or .8. most of our genome isn’t variable. you’re talking about SNPs that are very poly
i got it. i’m skeptical of the assertion with less knowledge than you.
I do see value in postmodern critique when it is applied to “soft” discourses such as humanities.
yes.
future comments in this vein need to be more concise to be published. can’t tolerate so much prolix elaboration on common sense as metaphysical profundity.
what they should really say is that inbreeding is bad. the racial aspect is a corollary, and not a necessary one.
Statistical thinking is not mutually exclusive with a modernist or postmodernist perspective.
first, i’m talking about postmodernism. not modernism.
Certainly I shudder at intellectuals who claim that science is an ideology, but I don’t personally see science as a reductively comprehensive philosophy.
are you talking to me? if so, i’m not proposing scientism, since i didn’t mention it or imply it.
I’ll admit that i’d probably need a better perspective on what aspects of post modernism are being described here before trying to defend it from the perspective of a moderately pro numerate pro science stance.
postmodernism rejects strawman platonic social constructions (e.g., the ‘gender binary’) and replaces them with a uniform distribution. as if those are the only two options. the postmodern framework makes more sense (to me) if you actually behave is if categories/constructions are what is doing the creating, rather than them being human tools to construct a map of reality (which is the standard realist position pretty clearly adhere to by scientists). i think this sort of neo-platonism is a lot less persuasive if you think of the world in various distributions and probabilities.
i don’t care about the hajnal line theory.
any good primer for modern critical theory?
I normally try to avoid "those who" generalizations and respond to specific arguments made by specific people, but "political correctness" is such a nebulous idea/movement it's hard to resist the temptation. I would conjecture that Ta-Nehisi Coates, Michelle Alexander and maybe Elizabeth Hinton for starters are highly popular in p.c. culture. To make an unfortunately unsourced generalization again, most of the (fellow) Millenials I know who participate in left-wing identity politics get their ideas from reading blogs (e.g. "the Love Life of an Asian Guy"), Tumblr accounts and website like Everyday Feminism rather than from reading books.Replies: @Razib Khan
if you say something like this, name them. otherwise, you’re a gasbag.
yes. tumblr.
TNC is entirely derivative. i haven’t read alexander, though ppl cite her. perhaps i should. no idea who hinton is.
i doubt they will fiddle with it too much, because you can get the raw data and check.
Thanks, I'll be arranging to have another one sent to another address with a fictitious name. And this time NOT fill out a questionnaire.
i doubt they will fiddle with it too much, because you can get the raw data and check.
there is usually gold in most things that you may in the main disagree with. i agree about this with critical race theory and the various flavors of post-modernism.
#unpersuadables. fred has been going on in this vein for 20 years.
That non-white authors and activists are generally much preferred among p.c. types is my general impression.
if you say something like this, name them. otherwise, you’re a gasbag.
it seems unlikely that PC kommissars have read their marcuse or adorno…but i have to admit that the way these thinkers frame their arguments and their lexicon does seem to have had some influence (the book i reference above was written in the 1970s, so this isn’t an after the fact work).
I normally try to avoid "those who" generalizations and respond to specific arguments made by specific people, but "political correctness" is such a nebulous idea/movement it's hard to resist the temptation. I would conjecture that Ta-Nehisi Coates, Michelle Alexander and maybe Elizabeth Hinton for starters are highly popular in p.c. culture. To make an unfortunately unsourced generalization again, most of the (fellow) Millenials I know who participate in left-wing identity politics get their ideas from reading blogs (e.g. "the Love Life of an Asian Guy"), Tumblr accounts and website like Everyday Feminism rather than from reading books.Replies: @Razib Khan
if you say something like this, name them. otherwise, you’re a gasbag.
kindle syncs across all devices. i don’t watch TV.
In other words, is the issue the sheer number of loci or just finding the loci which vary systematically across the populations?
the latter to some extent. though at this scale of Fst (low) going to be hard to find a significant number of ‘ancestrally informative markers’ with high Fst if you limited to 100, especially ones that are selectively neutral (e.g., lactase persistence is non-neutral in europe and varies a lot between population…).
if you are talking intercontinental scale differences then risch et al. showed in the early 2000s than 30 well chosen markers are sufficient. if you have a very specific question, such as “is the person 100% european or 100% african”, then slc24a5 itself could answer that (100% in one variant in europeans, and 99% in africans in the other, except north and northeast africans).
P.S. The ~1.5% variance explained for the 100 loci PC1 and PC2 implies to me that none of the loci selected matter much for evaluating the structure. Would you agree with that?
if they’re randomly pulling out of the SNP-chip list the between population difference in europe is not going to be high for any given marker. so yeah.
And here is the NYT (Nicholas Wade) take. I wonder if they would publish this today.
In conjunction with Table Table2,2, we can estimate that about 120 unselected SNPs or 20 highly selected SNPs can distinguish group CA from NA, AA from AS and AA from NA. A few hundred random SNPs are required to separate CA from AA, CA from AS and AS from NA, or about 40 highly selected loci. STRP loci are more powerful and have higher effective δ values because they have multiple alleles. Table Table33 reveals that fewer than 100 random STRPs, or about 30 highly selected loci, can distinguish the major racial groups. As expected, differentiating Caucasians and Hispanic Americans, who are admixed but mostly of Caucasian ancestry, is more difficult and requires a few hundred random STRPs or about 50 highly selected loci. These results also indicate that many hundreds of markers or more would be required to accurately differentiate more closely related groups, for example populations within the same racial category.
I'd like to note that the matter of whether 30 well-chosen AIMs are sufficient depends a lot on the goal. In our meta-analysis of individual-level genomic ancestry -- three-way split between African, Amerindian and European -- we came across a paper that used different numbers of variants to measure individual-level ancestry. Turns out, there is a lot of measurement error with just 30 variants. We wrote:
if you are talking intercontinental scale differences then risch et al. showed in the early 2000s than 30 well chosen markers are sufficient. if you have a very specific question, such as “is the person 100% european or 100% african”, then slc24a5 itself could answer that (100% in one variant in europeans, and 99% in africans in the other, except north and northeast africans).
these are randomly sampled from SNPs. these are themselves a subset of the positions in the wider genome so that they are polymorphic across populations. there are on the order of ~10 million of these (depending on how you set minor allele cut-off). the SNP-chips are variously ascertained, but usually have between 500 and 1 million markers now. if you are subset to 100 K you should probably at least make sure they are spaced apart so that LD isn’t an issue.
good question. i was going to add that technical note….
We have one book in common!
Taking five seconds, my picks are: The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life , War Before Civilization: the Myth of the Peaceful Savage, and Reflections on the Revolution in France
1) the bible is such an uneven book. i’ve read genesis dozens of times. in contrast, leviticus a lot less.
2) thinking of rereading the dune books. they dropped in quality in my recollection, though *god emperor* seemed to bring it back a little.
Haven't looked at the Dune series since High School, but your recollections pretty much match mine in terms of quality decline.
2) thinking of rereading the dune books. they dropped in quality in my recollection, though *god emperor* seemed to bring it back a little.
I'd like to think that the Bible offers a great diversity of reads. There is the whole teleological aspect of the Creation and the Apocalypse, of Genesis and the Revelations. There is great history of the very ancient peoples as well as that of the Age of the Koine Greek. There is the beautiful poetry and melody of the Psalms. There are timeless moral directives as well as the apologia of the Epistles. Then, of course, there is the revolutionary theology of Christ, God made Man... and the universal redemption through His Sacrifice.
1) the bible is such an uneven book. i’ve read genesis dozens of times. in contrast, leviticus a lot less.
When I was younger, I reveled in the revenge and heroism of the first book. The second and third books were disappointments after the crescendo of the first book, climaxing in the triumph of Paul Muad'Dib (and the restoration of the Atreides). A grand happy ending, if you will.
2) thinking of rereading the dune books. they dropped in quality in my recollection, though *god emperor* seemed to bring it back a little.
To the best of my knowledge, no evidence for the actual existence of the Xia has turned up. The earliest authenticated dynasty is the Shang (various dates given: 1766 to 1122 BC,1556 to 1046 BC, c. 1600 to 1046 BC).Replies: @Razib Khan, @John Massey, @Walter Sobchak
From Wikipedia: History of China: “The Xia dynasty of China (from c. 2100 to c. 1600 BC) is the first dynasty to be described in ancient historical records”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia_dynasty#Archaeological_discoveries
do remember though that the shang were legendary until they weren’t. i think it is likely that xia existed in some form, even if we can never confirm it….
Sure. The Shang didn't emerge from the soil fully grown, after all. They developed out of precursors. I'm just not completely comfortable with calling those precursors the Xia.
do remember though that the shang were legendary until they weren’t. i think it is likely that xia existed in some form, even if we can never confirm it….
*Planet Money* *BHTV* *On Point* *In Our Time* *KERA Think* *Marketplace* *From Our Own Correspondent* *Here and Now* *Slate Money*
Can you please make this case?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta could already traverse from the middle east to china within a totally islamic world. after 1000 AD non-muslims seem to have been marginalized enough in the western indian ocean that muslims commonly became maritime specialists; e.g., in south india. in the eastern indian ocean aceh had become muslim in ~1000, and across southeast asia the maritime elites were already becoming mostly muslim, e.g., demak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demak_Sultanate#Origins
the areas where islam (and christianity) were less successful were notably those not reliant on maritime connections. interior sri lanaka, and mainland southeast asia.
no.
if you assume a molecular clock you can calibrate divergence based on an outgroup you know. so we diverged from chimps 5 million years ago, if your variation is 20% that of chimp-human than you diverged 1 million years ago from humans. the issue with microsatellites is that they mutate fast and ‘overwrite’ (convergence) each other. with SNPs, they mutate slow, but Y chromosomes have very little SNP variation, so you don’t have enough variation to predict stuff well.
whole genome sequence, which is coming online now for Y in the last few years, has revolutionized this…
athens is trivial. their empire didn’t push beyond the aegean. the other three are what i would also think. i don’t see the strength of your contrast at all. that being said, the indian ocean is not the same type of body of water as the med. southeast asia is a better analogy. and there are many states besides the ones i named (e.g., malacca, makasar come to mind).
which med. states are you thinking about?
i think you’re wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srivijaya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majapahit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_dynasty
. Why didn’t South Indian states create sea empires in East Africa?
what would they get from east africa?
Is there any precedent for a 99.99% death rate form any single disease cause within a limited time frame
not to my knowledge.
we could survive biologically. issue with humans is that our cultural complexity requires critical mass. we could easily persist with a 99.99% mortality rate in terms of being a biological species. depending on spatial distribution it wouldn’t even be much of a bottleneck if at all. (~1 million out of ~10 billion) but civilization would go and we’d probably be hunter-gatherers.
language games is right.
lolz.
they’re frank in their private salons. also, class identity and money can insulate you from a lot of the crap you are talking about. look at all the sexual harassment cases in academia. senior profs can get away with rape in some cases, but if you are a grad student and an accusation is made because you emailed someone inappropriately, you’re fucked. it’s about power. the rules are different if you are part of the elite.
Yeah. When I was in graduate school I made some comments in a seminar dealing with the Victorian novel. My comments (which were entirely about Tess of the d'Urbervilles, not rape in the real world) were interpreted as indicating that I condoned rape. I was confronted the next day by a phalanx of feminist grad students who demanded that I explain myself. Not wanting to earn the ire of the senior faculty members who supported these ladies, I swiftly recanted my previous statements.Replies: @Ivy
they’re frank in their private salons. also, class identity and money can insulate you from a lot of the crap you are talking about. look at all the sexual harassment cases in academia. senior profs can get away with rape in some cases, but if you are a grad student and an accusation is made because you emailed someone inappropriately, you’re fucked. it’s about power. the rules are different if you are part of the elite.
Yeah, but man, when that elite goes down, they tend to go down pretty hard - guillotine-time!Zanj rebellion for those who want a really old-school example.Otherwise...looking forward to the return of guilds! The tend towards the Dune universe may happen in my lifetime!On a more serious note, what you say about the dismantling of institutional learning is interesting. I know in Islamic scholarship, it is often the ones who are off-the-grid, so to speak, that have the highest credibility. Cases in point; the late Shaykh Ramadan Bouti (ra) of Syria who was the de-facto Mufti of the Levant without ever having held that title. Another, the great Mauritanian sage, Murabit al-Hajj (db) who teaches to this day (at around 111+ years - nobody knows his real age - he made Hajj on foot from West Africa when the Ottomans were still in charge) who is a breathing university and could potentially rival all the Maliki ulema in Qarawiyyin by himself - and lives out here:
the rules are different if you are part of the elite.
class, race, religion, community, in various flavors.
the class solidarity will not work the way that leftists assume. the lower orders weren’t been able to coalesce into the international proletariat, and they won’t today. but, there is going to be solidarity among the global overclass, just like the aristocracies of old. money and connections mean freedom. my goal is try to get embedded in that class.
other people will have religious and racial solidities. though i think the religious ones will be more powerful because they have an explicit system for maintenance and perpetuation over time. in the end culture does beat genes 🙂
I find it hard to believe there is one distinct marker for every ethnic group. By that logic, testing anyone would show a result mixed result of being partially related to neighboring groups. Or is there something I’m missing here?
you’re missing something. these methods rely on thousands of markers, which in aggregate allow one to differentiate population and individuals within populations to a high degree of precision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genetic_Diversity:_Lewontin%27s_Fallacy#Edwards.27_critique
an analogy might help. if you said someone had black hair, that’s not too informative. some populations don’t have black hair, but many do. how about straight black hair? ok, you’ve narrowed it, but not much. if you said someone had black hair and very light skin, you have narrowed the range of populations considerably more. so what if i told you that someone had black hair and an epicanthic fold? and, they had a small nose and high cheekbones? you can probably guess the ethnicity of this person.
now, none of these traits are specific to one single population. for example, the bushmen have epicanthic folds and high cheekbones. but they don’t have straight hair (or very light skin). they don’t have the joint combination of traits. similarly, the joint distribution of allele frequencies is very specific to populations.
For certain types of intelligent/curious people it just sucks spiritually to live in that sort of world.
to some extent the past few centuries have been on our terms. the enlightenment is overdone and overvalorized, but it was a thing. but it’s an old faith going into decline.
people need to accept that the future is arranged around corporate units. that naked power will dictate relations between those corporate units.
it’ll be incommensurable ghettos. in fields without direct impact outside of science one can make up stuff without consequence. all that restricts us is decency, conscience, and a genuine love of the truth. what if you have none of these? even in statistical science you can row up the river for decades.
yep, i think it’s a package deal. those of us who can see the future coming need to prep ourselves to make it into the oligarchy. only there will liberty remain and retain.
it already is partly. some of my geneticist friends are appalled that i speak openly about some things. some of them are admiring of my boldness. none of them will speak in public though, whatever they may say in private (except for the ones who will excoriate me now and then).
if you had asked me in 2005 if we’d be here in 2016, i’d have been skeptical, and sad. but that’s where we are. it’s getting worse, not better 🙁 and it’s not about tenure or money. it’s about social sanction and approval. so two sad conclusions:
1) truth can only move in hidden channels now if it conflicts with power. no one gives a shit if you appeal to truth, they know that it is not intrinsic value except in the serve of status and power. i admire heterodox academy, but part of me wonders if they’d be better served by being stealth and just creating a secret society that doesn’t put the academy on notice that some people know that reality is different from the official narratives.
2) the post-modernists are right to a first approximation, everything is power. so “we” have to capture and crush; it’s only victory or defeat. the odds are irrelevant. i put we in quotes because it doesn’t matter who you are, the game is on, whether you think you are a player or not.
open data and crowd-sourcing means that a whole ecosystem of knowledge can emerge that doesn’t need to be nakedly exposed and put peoples’ livelihoods and reputations at risk from the kommissars.
some of my friends have argued this for a long time and i resisted because i’m an liberal in the old sense. but reality is reality, and the fact is that no one wants the truth, and they’ll destroy you to deny it.
for every alice dreger there are 1,000 who support her. but they’ll stand aside while the 100 tear her to shreds, and talk sadly amongst themselves about what happened to her career….
Yeah. I'm in the Humanities, not the hard sciences, but I've had close colleagues say heretical things to me behind closed doors, things that they would fervently denounce if someone were to say them publicly.
it already is partly. some of my geneticist friends are appalled that i speak openly about some things. some of them are admiring of my boldness. none of them will speak in public though, whatever they may say in private
It's this realization, not just about the academy, but the major institutions of our society in general, that has made me become melancholic and withdrawn from the world in the last decade or so. I subscribe to old school Christian gentlemanliness, of fair play, and magnanimity to the defeated, at least toward my fellow Americans (I have a different view about foreign enemies, they who are not of our tribe).
2) the post-modernists are right to a first approximation, everything is power. so “we” have to capture and crush; it’s only victory or defeat. the odds are irrelevant. i put we in quotes because it doesn’t matter who you are, the game is on, whether you think you are a player or not.
it’s because i didn’t start sampling every year until after 2010. added the data.
latter
i’m not going to engage on the bloggers issues. genitiker is a definite kook. i know davidski gets out of control sometimes too, though i’ve only seen it once (people bring this up all the time, did he delete all that stuff as there are never links?). though the fact that he has a free for all in his comments doesn’t help.
as for the distinction btwn west and east eurasians. west is definitely paraphyletic. but, it does seem that the back migration from east eurasia, broadly conceived, beyond india has been very modest. (some to europe too) i’m pretty sure that this has to due to with lots of population replacement in east asia that occurred recently (people have been hinting at me about this in the research community for a while, but wait until fu cleans up this topic).
Malta boy is West Eurasian not because he was clearly born as one but because of the way later generations intermingled and interbred. If some Basal Eurasian rich group survived and they were the researchers they would be strongly inclined to define themselves as West Eurasians and the rest as East Eurasians. Cladistically that makes a better sense.(not that cladistics should overrule other considerations but just saying as a matter of curiosity)
ANE shares more drift with WHG. though it’s only ‘west eurasian’ in a technical sense. the divergence was pretty soon after the ‘out of africa’ diversification.
i think the relatively deep divergence in some eurasian threads is because most of the ‘intervening’ ice age pops geographically may not have been leaving descendants. though there may be some lacunae in our ancient DNA to add some layers of complexity. the ancestry was ‘reticulate’ from an early stage.
the chinese are not a good comparison with japanese or koreans. there is some noticeable structure within chinese, including obviously relatively recently sinicized subcomponents in the 1000 genomes sample.
i’m not sure koreans are more inbred than japanese.
reading through the comments i’m starting to wonder if my friends were early adopters of 23andMe (they were), and were assigned using an older method whose results were frozen.
that being said, if 23andMe’s methods can correctly assign ‘chinese’ ancestry to people (and it does), then i don’t see why it can’t for korean, as they are more homogeneous.
ultimately, the details are in the methods. the data though is probably sufficient.
Bifurcation into West and East Eurasians is a statistical concept and the crudest approximation. It is absurd to pigeonhole every ancient sample as East or West Eurasian because the actual history is far more complicated.
this is not true. there is some gene-flow between west and east eurasian. or, more precisely, west-north eurasian and east eurasian + amerindian. but it’s not an exceedingly complex mixture. the ancient samples that are poor fits into this dichotomy come from a period close to the divergence of non-africans into separate populations.
1) What about the West African. There were only two references: Yoruba and Mandenka, which is bad enough. But you made the decision to cut one of them (the Mandenka), even though you should have known that Africa has the greatest genetic variety, so having only one reference was really going to be worse than having at least two.
the mandenka have old west eurasian ancestry (0-5% interval, but it’s detectable and relatively even throughout the group). the yoruba probably do too…but the are the ‘best’ we can get.
as for african diversity, that’s true within population, and the in the aggregate. but the between population diversity of west african & bantu speaking groups isn’t that big. e.g., the Fst btwn kenya bantu and west africans is on the same order as central vs. sw europe.
2) back to the Native America. What do you mean that having five references were producing “false positives?” This is the first time that I’ve heard such a thing anywhere. I’ve never heard of this at 23andme, ancestryDNA, Tribecode, etc
some of those groups (e.g., maya) seem to have really old and widely distributed european admixture. selecting the amazonian groups eliminated that problem. but they caused another problem because those are not typical amerindian groups (e.g., austro-melanesian admixture at low %). so there was a false negative problem.
i won’t publish any future comments not on the open thread.
1) you should post on the open thread.
2) one answer is i don’t know why myOrigins v2 is late. i stopped working for them this spring due to my various other commitments. when they do release the next version, i will help in any way i can. but they’ll loop me in only on a need to know basis (yeah, it’s late, i don’t know why, the goal was to get to release it in winter).*
3) the native american references were producing false positives. the decision was made to err on the side of false negatives. the next version is going to try and strike a balance.
4) The East Asian references were reduced so badly that there’s just a genetic “East Asian” result with no specificity at all. this isn’t true. ? the labels are a little weird. but that wan’t my doing.
you should chill on the conspiratorial tone. it’s annoying.
(follow ups on open thread)
* there are some issues relating to engineering and scalability where i wasn’t totally clued in, and i think that’s it, because the reference sets are there. also, we were trying hard to add more clusters relatively late…. (stay tuned)
A lot of western travelers have impression of northern Chinese as very nationalistic people. Yes, they are right about that. In fact, most northerners are more nationalistic in general, which include both northern Asians (Mongolian, Manchurian, Northern Han, also Korean) and northern Europeans( like German, Russian, Norwegian, ect). Not sure how this happens. I bet it is more to do with survive in harsh cold climate without any one else mercy. Also historically, it was always for northerners conquering southerners in both Asia and European histories.
Oh, no, someone’s sense of race purism has been hurt:
i refute you thus: the vietnamese.
yep. this is basically the next stage in the ascertainment bias problems that were well understood in the 2000s.
Would a PCA work very well for her? Koreans tend to be between Chinese and Japanese in PCA's featuring them all, and if she has 1/8 of her ancestry from both it could cancel out.
Ultimately, Hong can think whatever she wants to about her 23andMe results. But the data are out there. It’s pretty obvious that unless there was a sample mix-up, she has recent Chinese and Japanese ancestry (she could put the raw results in the public domain and have people cross-check with other methods, like PCA, I’m pretty sure they would confirm the 23andMe results).
Would a PCA work very well for her? Koreans tend to be between Chinese and Japanese in PCA’s featuring them all, and if she has 1/8 of her ancestry from both it could cancel out.
not just PC 1 and and PC 2. there is surely one that separates north vs. south chinese.
23andMe uses chromosome painting? I thought they used Germline IBD, the data from which may be turned into a “chromosome painting.”
they don’t use germline.
http://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/20121027_ancestry_painting_methods_poster.pdf
i doubt it. i told you, i’ve seen ftDNA korea data. a fair amount. no structure.
when i went to Z & Y in SF the server straight up would not let my two friends & i order some of the stuff (they where white).
https://www.zomato.com/houston/mala-sichuan-bistro-montrose/menu#tabtop
page 2 of the menu, S5.
the rate of crime (sexual crime) can both be higher than the baseline, and, it could be exaggerated.
i think the key for me is that sexual harassment is well known to be a major problem in MENA and s. asia (people travel there, so they have experience of this) , so i see no reason why one’s prior should be that they will behave that differently in new circumstances.
this is why murder is the “best” crime statistic. the bias issues go down as murders are salient enough to be noticed.
Most refugees to Europe are very poor young single men, because they are most easily able to escape their homeland, and also willing to take the risk. This is also the same category that is associated with these types of opportunistic crimes in most societies.
i would quibble with this. all the data i’ve seen suggests that people who migrate are NOT usually in the bottom 1/3 of the population, and often from the top 1/2, because u often need resources to actually make the trip. the syrian stream of migrants is more representative…but the ppl from afghanistan etc. are not representative.