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Razib Khan
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    There are some topics which I have some interest in, such as prehistory illuminated by genetics, in which there is constant change and new discoveries every few months. If a new paper doesn't drop in a six month interval, I think something is wrong. There are other topics where I don't perceive much change, and...
  • @Thursday
    I have to point out that your post doesn't actually answer Dreher's question of why Evangelicals are more conservative on moral issues than Catholics. After all they are themselves Protestants, so Protestantization can't be the answer.

    I suspect a couple things. First, Protestantism has different churches for liberals and conservatives. So, if you lumped the Mainline and Evangelical churches into one category, you might get numbers that are more similar to the Catholic. Second, I do think ecclesiology matters here. Most Evangelicals are members of churches with a congregational form of church government. That means that if a congregation goes in for liberal theology, it starts to see the problems with that more immediately than in larger, more hierarchical, organizations like the Anglicans, Presbyterians and Catholic. So, Evangelicalism has been subject to more Darwinian weeding out. Liberal Baptists (they did exist) went extinct a long time ago.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @animalogic

    Liberal Baptists (they did exist) went extinct a long time ago.

    american baptists are still around. and in any case, there is a liberal minority in the southern baptist convention (or was until they started leaving a few years back like carter).

    don’t try to bullshit me. it annoys me.

    • Replies: @Thursday
    @Razib Khan

    american baptists are still around.

    I was deliberately using (very) mild hyperbole, which should be obvious. I am perfectly aware that in a country of 300 million people there are still a few liberal Baptist congregations around. But they're very thin on the ground, not only compared to Evangelicals, but to the more hierarchical Mainline.

    For example, the American Baptists are a denomination of 1 million in a country of 300 million, which makes them about 0.3% of the population. Not only that, the official stance of the overall denomination is still that homosexuality is morally wrong, which indicates the majority of those are still conservatives, though, unlike the SBC, they allow congregations that dissent.

    The battle in the SBC was not between liberals and conservatives, rather between moderate conservatives and really hard core fundamentalists. It's analogous to a fight between Pope Francis and Pope Benedict.

  • @bob sykes
    I was raised Catholic (now agnostic many years), and many of my relatives are practicing Catholics. Theirs is a nonintellectual religion. It is a religion of family and companionship. They are only minimally aware of the Church's intellectual history and of its official doctrine, and they feel free to ignore inconvenient teachings, like the ban on contraception. I have a sister who is truly devout, as is her whole family, and she is simply unaware of some of the most basic Church doctrines.

    This is not a new thing. Pre Vatican II, in the 50's, my mother, raised in the strictest French Canadian Catholic tradition, was a cafeteria Catholic. The fact is that the laity and priesthood practice different faiths.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    The fact is that the laity and priesthood practice different faiths.

    this would be taken for granted in a fashion for pre-moderns.

  • @David Boxenhorn
    Have you read The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt? Haidt believes that morality in general (not just religion) exists as a means for group selection to take place; that morality in humans plays the role that reproduction though a single queen plays in bees. He also thinks that there has been a lot of recent gene-culture coevolution for morality. From an evolutionary point of view he's clearly not very sophisticated, and I don't think Haidt says anything that will be a big surprise to readers of this blog, but I do think he adds a lot of psychological insight (he is a psychologist, after all).

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @RaceRealist88

    i have the book. a lot of it makes sense. we’ll see if it is true…

    • Replies: @David Boxenhorn
    @Razib Khan

    I'm not sure that I agree with Haidt's central thesis that the difference between Left, Right, and Libertarian is captured by the degree to which various moral foundations are activated. Rather, it seems to me that these foundations are used in different ways by different moral systems. In the context of this post, I bring up the book only to, perhaps, put religion in its place as only one type of morality, and morality in its place as the substrate of groupishness.

    Replies: @Roger Sweeny

  • I reread Colin Woodward's American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America on the plane recently. It's a less scholarly work than Albion's Seed or The Cousins' Wars: Religion, Politics, Civil Warfare, And The Triumph Of Anglo-America, but arguably more straightforwardly relevant to modern conditions and events. I'm rather sure...
  • @Bill P

    The important point here is that initially developed cultural folkways can be persistent and reinforcing. The author observes that Nordic immigrants seem to have almost invariably chosen the region of the American frontier dominated by a Yankee ethos, the Upper Midwest. Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism).
     
    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities. Most Nordics who vote Democrat in my neck of the woods (NW Washington state -- lots of them here) do so for traditional blue-collar reasons, i.e. pro-union sentiment. But to call them progressives would be, quite frankly, hilariously absurd. Hell, I'm considerably more progressive than most of them, and I'd be called a far right-winger in comparable Anglo towns like Port Townsend.

    Also, Nordic people didn't choose Yankee states because of the Yankee ethos, but because that's where the jobs they knew how to do could be found. Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on. As recently as the 1960s Nordic people were considered low-class simpletons by Anglos, often the butt of jokes. Even here in Whatcom County, where the Dutch are the dominant ethnicity, the local Icelanders are considered underclass, as they are known mainly for raising chickens and weasels, whereas the dominant Dutch (totally ruthless capitalist Calvinists themselves) own enormous dairy farms and dominate right-wing talk radio.

    BTW, a Hillary-supporting Turk just murdered five innocent whites in the nearby Norwegian stronghold of Mt. Vernon, WA. Two were related to a co-worker: a 60-something woman and her 95-year-old mother (what a scumbag). While at work with the guys, they were saying the guy should be tortured to death. I said he should probably be put down, but humanely. I defended my position by saying it would only make a martyr out of him, and anyway there's no point in adding savagery to an already savage act. I was shouted down vehemently. These are the Nordics I know.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Pseudonymic Handle

    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    can you count? north dakota has a pop of less than 1 million. use english normally, that’s not a ‘big wrench.’

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities.

    you are throwing terms around incoherently. new england yankees in rural areas are also conservative. as my previous post indicates, there are different types of conservatism. i don’t mean progressive in the sense of of modern american politics.

    Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on.

    this deterministic account is too simple. swedes started in delaware, and that’s where the log cabin began with finns.

    the anti-slavery affinities of german protestants and other northern europeans are well attested in any history.

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.

    • Replies: @Thursday
    @Razib Khan

    I once took a look at the counties in the Dakotas and Minnesota that voted R or D in recent presidential elections. Rural counties that went D were overwhelmingly either heavily Native/Indian or heavily Norwegian. The counties that voted R tended to be more German. Diverse urban counties in Minnesota (Twin Cities, but also places like Duluth) also tend to go D. Swedishness didn't have much impact.

    Upshot: Scandinavians are often liberal even in rural areas.

    Replies: @Karl Zimmerman

    , @Bill P
    @Razib Khan


    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.
     
    Oh have a heart. In the last few weeks the only free time I have to comment coincides with the only free time I have to drink a beer or three. I'm training for a new job and I have three kids from age 2-11 plus an ornery wife.

    When I get some peace and quiet in the mornings (I will soon) then feel free to hold me to the highest standards.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • The new Alice Roberts documentary is going viral. Or at least its spin is. E.g., Western contact with China began long before Marco Polo, experts say: Let's go with the easy part first: there were no "Western" people when the Afanasevo culture was pushing into the fringes of what is today Xinjiang. There are two...
  • @Chuck
    Razib,

    What's your opinion on the possibly East Asian remains found in England?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    there are probably some.

  • @Philip Neal
    There is archaeological and lingustic evidence for Indo-European intrusion into Shang China - the chariots are of steppe type and the associated words 'chariot' and 'horse' look Indo-European. See Christopher Beckwith, Empires of the Silk Road p. 46.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • @aeolius
    You said "Western Contact with China Did Not Occur 3,000 Years Ago".
    That statement requires an omniscient observer.
    Lack of proof does not mean proof of lack.
    Just recently bones of two Asians from ~2-400AD were found near London. That's what I would expect we will eventuality find in reverse in China

    For reasons which escape me professionals in Archeology/Anthropology keep minimizing the very human curiosity drive. In stead they want to fit human behavior into neat categories which they can then publish. Clovis-only thinking seems to be a paradigm of such thought
    I expect travelers did cross the Asian continent occasionally long before and after 3000BC . You might want to examine the genetic nature of the exploratory drive.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    are you just not very intelligent, or you don’t read the posts you comment on as a matter of course?

  • sep issues

    1) people we’d define as ‘white’ started to have contact with people we’d define as proto-chinese 4,000 years ago

    2) people we’d define as ‘greek’ probably did have contact with han ~2,000 years ago or earlier

    3) these people probably did influence culture in various ways

    4) people we’d define as ‘western’ probably didn’t show up until 1000 AD or so, in part because ‘western’ makes sense as a term only around that period

    5) i’d bet the greeks who arrived didn’t come from greece proper, but the diaspora to the east in the persian empire, and bractro and indo-greeks

  • @Bill P
    Maybe the documentary should have specified "West Eurasians" or something along those lines. Most likely they just didn't want to say "white people" because it would invariably offend someone. Only 25 years ago people wouldn't have made this mistake, but now you have to in order to broadcast material.

    Of course what we know as the "West" today didn't exist until the Middle Ages. You can't really separate it from (Roman) Christendom.

    As for the Tocharians, didn't they speak a Centum language? If so, maybe they did come all the way from Europe proper. Perhaps the Pannonian Basin or thereabouts, from where it would be a straight shot across the steppe to the Tarim Basin.

    I'm kind of curious about the Greco Bactrians as well. I know they were mostly indigenous Afghans by ancestry, but it's pretty clear that they absorbed an impressive amount of Greek classical culture. Their statues pretty much set the standard throughout East Asia. So I wonder how many Greeks actually did set up shop there.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Jack Highlands

    <iAs for the Tocharians, didn’t they speak a Centum language? If so, maybe they did come all the way from Europe proper. Perhaps the Pannonian Basin or thereabouts, from where it would be a straight shot across the steppe to the Tarim Basin.

    no one thinks the centum/satem distinction means what you think. also, my understanding is that they don’t have haplogroup I. that’s a tell for a european group.

    • Replies: @Rick
    @Razib Khan

    Probably the satem shift occurred around the Sintashta times, and their language greatly influenced (but didn't totally replace) local Indo-European languages in a few locations. Some of those influenced groups later had great success and expanded widely (the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranians).

    As for the Tarim Basin mummy DNA and the Tocharian language... there is basically zero real evidence linking the two, other than location (but not time). I would be very skeptical about connecting them without more data. This area was a hot spot for turnover.

    , @jtgw
    @Razib Khan

    That's certainly what I learned about the centum/satem distinction. Since the *k,*g,*gh series is original in Proto-Indo-European, languages that retain those sounds only necessarily share a PIE ancestor, not necessarily a more recent one. It's only the satem languages that can be said to be an identifiable subgroup, i.e. Indo-Iranians may have something special in common with Balto-Slavs, but Tocharians don't have anything special in common with Italo-Celts.

  • @Douglas Knight
    Where does the 3000 year figure come from? Your link mentions two points dated to the First Emperor.

    If Greek sculptural styles reached China 100 years after Alexander's death, that sounds very fast to me. It sounds like the movement of people, not just ideas.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    Where does the 3000 year figure come from? Your link mentions two points dated to the First Emperor.

    contacts with western looking people can be gleaned as early as 1000 BCE depending on how you interpret references to certain barbarians.

    If Greek sculptural styles reached China 100 years after Alexander’s death, that sounds very fast to me. It sounds like the movement of people, not just ideas.

    as noted by others, probably includes people who arrived via persia. chariots probably came from middle east via central asia, so this is not new.

  • For various ideological reasons there is an idea in some parts of the academy that Asian Americans are not a "model minority." That that "model minority" designation is a myth. The mainstream media often repeats the idea that this is a myth which has been "debunked." Actually, it hasn't been debunked. Rather, through a set...
  • @Twinkie
    @Sean

    What are you trying to say?

    This sounds like something a 5 year-old with access to an adult dictionary wrote.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    literally LOL.

    you should see the 50% of the comments from this guy i don’t post…

  • @pyrrhus
    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group. But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude....So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn't harm them, and to block vote for their own. And they do all three, in my experience.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Twinkie, @Sean, @Bill M

    stupid. intermarriage rates quite high for 1.5 & 2nd gen.

    • Disagree: Dan Hayes
  • There has been lots of comment on Mormons and politics recently. I think the key aspect which is underemphasized in these pieces are the deep differences within Anglo-American cultural streams (as opposed to the short-term reasons for Mormon disaffection from the conservative coalition, such as their internationalism). If you haven't read Albion's Seed, you should....
  • @Clark
    Razib, I think it got mentioned in your original post, but the one problem with your theory is that most of the English in Utah came during a huge wave of immigration in the second half of the 19th century from Mormon missionary efforts there. There was also a relatively large wave of immigration of Scandinavians. (There's actually one town primarily settled by Icelanders) Even before the move to Utah a large percentage of Mormons were European. This tends to undercut somewhat the puritan thesis even though many of the leaders of Mormonism do come out of the New England culture. In particular Brigham Young is very much the ideal of a pragmatic yankee. While early Mormonism definitely had a lot of early Yankee converts many if not most of these didn't stay with the movement.

    The thesis about Puritanism might have certain elements, but if they are there I think they're a bit more indirect. Early Mormonism is much more driven by converts from the more Arminian tradition rather than the Calvinist tradition. (A large conversion of Cambellites who largely followed Wesley's type of Arminianism set the tone for early Mormonism prior to the move to Illinois)

    Mormonism always had an uncomfortable relationship with the south. When they moved to Missouri they were persecuted largely due to being seen as abolitionists. (This was just a few years after a major slave rebellion) Mormon missionaries were often extremely persecuted in the south and sometimes lynched. There was a perception that southerners were in part behind the murder of Joseph Smith as well. This eventually led, during the Utah War period, to the Mountain Meadows Massacre. (The settlers heading to California were from Arkansas and just a few months earlier a Mormon apostle had been murdered in Arkansas) While in the Utah period, partially due to immigrants from the south, the tended to have a position not nearly as abolitionist as before those elements did remain in some ways. (I suspect part of this was due to Republican opposition to Mormons as well - there were political calls of eliminating the twin relics of barbarism of slavery and Mormonism)

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Anonymous, @Hail

    The thesis about Puritanism might have certain elements, but if they are there I think they’re a bit more indirect. Early Mormonism is much more driven by converts from the more Arminian tradition rather than the Calvinist tradition. (A large conversion of Cambellites who largely followed Wesley’s type of Arminianism set the tone for early Mormonism prior to the move to Illinois)

    i’m to understand that joseph smith himself flirted with the ‘universalist’ movement.

    i am aware that mormons are not calvinists. but when i say ‘puritan’ i don’t mean a theological position. after all, most unitarian-universalist churches in new england used to be congregationalist churches, and the transcendalists came out of the puritan milieu. rather, my assertion is that early mormonism can be understood as an extension of a yankee ethos, which can be seen in many of the movements from the burnedover district.

    second, yes, i’m aware of the conversions in england (and also large #s of migrants from scandinavia) to the early church in part because of you. but it seems likely that they would attract the sort of people who reinforce, rather than diminish, the ethos of the early church.

  • For various ideological reasons there is an idea in some parts of the academy that Asian Americans are not a "model minority." That that "model minority" designation is a myth. The mainstream media often repeats the idea that this is a myth which has been "debunked." Actually, it hasn't been debunked. Rather, through a set...
  • @ohwilleke

    Actually, it hasn’t been debunked. Rather, through a set of common talking points and empirical shell games Asian American achievement is masked, obfuscated, and explained away. This is not to say that Asian Americans have not, and do not, experience racism.
     
    For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.

    Of course, the point that "Asian American" is simply a hugely broad areal identifier that has no real ethnic or racial meaning when actually used to include all Americans of Asian decent is clearly true.

    Each country has its own quirks of classification. For example, in the U.K. the phrase black and minority ethnic group (BME) "refers to non-White ethnic groups and generally, though not exclusively, to people of Indian or Pakistani origin." per Lever, "Democracy, Epistemology, and the Problem of All-White Juries" (November 19, 2015). http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2718452

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.

    sort of. but the sophisticated argument almost always goes to facts like….

    1) southeast asian refugees
    2) asian americans make less $ per year of education
    3) asian american higher workforce participation results in higher household income than should be….
    4) cost of living higher in CA, mitigating higher income

    etc. etc.

    basically, it’s a way to just diminish the ‘model minority’ aggregate statistics. some of these are valid, but some of them are not. a lot of the ‘model minority’ myth literature also cites the same studies over and over, because they fit the narrative.

  • @Anonymous
    Clint Eastwood's character in Gran Torino:

    "I thought you slopes were good in math."
    ...

    "I thought you Asian girls were supposed to be smart."
     

    In the movie Eastwood's character was talking to Hmong kids. He obviously can't tell Asians apart or knows about the IQ differences as you go up the epicanthic totem pole, from Hmong & Cambodian up to Korean & Japanese.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    stupid. the genetics is clear, the hmong are recent migrants from central china. they don’t have much austric admixture at all, unlike lowland pops.

  • Online Life Is Real Life, Aleph-Nought in a Series: It's a major pet peeve of mine that people deduce from what they see on this blog and Twitter to generate a full picture of whom I am. If the data you saw were representative, then that might be one thing, but they really aren't. Rather,...
  • @iffen
    is either highly misinformed or a lying demagogue or both.

    This seems unwarranted.

    I don’t understand your aversion to looking at the future.

    You are mixing Mercer’s writings on the tribulations of South Africa’s white farmers with the political commentary in the current article.

    All she is saying is that the political racial divide is permanent and will become permanent in the US as well.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Twinkie

    the title is loaded, and my rxn was the same. whites were never more than ~25% of s. africa’s population. the most pessimistic interpretation of ‘white’ doesn’t put them below 50% for 1.5 generations, and even then they’ll be by far the largest community. if you’re going to make an analogy use one that doesn’t undermine you from the beginning.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    Perhaps my opinion is being too heavily influenced by the current political scene.

    I see that I was not at all clear with my 35-40%. I was talking about a "politically estranged" white bloc, not whites as a whole.

  • Episode 728: The Wells Fargo Hustle. Elizabeth Warren is right, there won't be any accountability at the top. Hope I'm wrong. Started reading A New History of Western Philosophy last summer, but got bogged down in the medieval section. I started reading it last week and it's going much faster now that I'm in the...
  • @Twinkie
    @Jason Liu


    To be fair, around the time of Japan’s state founding, up to a third of the population could have been Korean/Chinese immigrants, although the distinction between “Korean” and “Japanese” were not as clear as people think today.
     
    That's because "Korea" and "Japan" did not exist when the Yamato state was founded.

    All this cantankerous modern dispute over Kaya/Kara/Minama Confederacy as "Korean" (source of Japanese state) or "Japanese" (colony in Korea) misses the point, because modern polities and ethno-national distinctions are utterly anachronistic to the timeframe in question.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    yes

  • There has been lots of comment on Mormons and politics recently. I think the key aspect which is underemphasized in these pieces are the deep differences within Anglo-American cultural streams (as opposed to the short-term reasons for Mormon disaffection from the conservative coalition, such as their internationalism). If you haven't read Albion's Seed, you should....
  • @Twinkie
    @Bill P


    Right, some of eastern Oregon has a Southern feel to it.
     
    Once I asked a local in Western Washington what the difference was between Washingtonians and Oregonians. His answer? "We like Asians in Washington. They don't in Oregon."

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Bill P

    oregon was historically more racist overall. black musicians who played in portland had to stay in hotels across the river in vacounver, WA. black musicians going by train from seattle to california also had to accept that they wouldn’t get lodgings overnight if they stopped in oregon.

    • Replies: @patrick
    @Razib Khan

    Some black people settled in Washington Territory for exactly that reason. Centralia, Washington (about halfway between Tacoma and Portland) was founded by a black man named George Washington who had come west on the Oregon Trail but could not own land in the Oregon Territory. I have also read that the KKK was particularly strong in Oregon during the 1920s.

  • @Twinkie
    @Yudi


    The current Mormon alliance is mainly with the Scots-Irish and the Deep South, as Tidewater is disappearing.
     
    The cultural and linguistic obliteration of Tidewater is deeply sad to me, in part because my older children* grew up and learned to speak as babies there. They still have more than a trace of this accent: https://youtu.be/1RzVKCWXrRA

    It was, I suppose, inevitable given the outsized economic roles that military bases and federal facilities have played in the big cities of the region. They brought a great deal of diversity and the monolithic national-popular culture that just overwhelmed what remained of the local flavor in the cities.

    Still, there are small towns and rural villages in the Tidewater area that retain the older local culture, including the dialect. One of my hunting buddies is from the area - his family has been there for over 200 years and still owns some bits of land (the Civil War and its aftermath destroyed much of the Cavalier society and prosperity, and eminent domain put the final nail in the conffin). One still sees occasional small cotton fields in Tidewater!

    *My younger children can shift at will between a mild Mid-Atlanic accent and Appalachian, reflecting the two residences in which they have grown. So we have quite a bit of linguistic diversity in my family (I speak with a mix of New England/New York accents and my wife speaks Standard Midwestern). Together as a family we culturally identify as Southerners, but my children will knock their mother and me for being carpetbaggers whilst they are, of course, the native-born of Dixie.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • @Bill P
    @Razib Khan


    additionally, there is the fact that many anti-slavery people were as anti-black, or more so, than people that accepted the institution. e.g., my home state of oregon was founded explicitly as a non-slave white state.
     
    Ever read Sometimes a Great Notion? That attitude is captured very well in the descriptions of Oregon settlers' views concerning both blacks and Southerners. I've run into it up here in exurban/rural Western Washington as well -- even today. People are not so friendly toward blacks, and they're at least as hostile to white Southerners. They seem to think anyone with that accent is a degenerate or an imbecile.

    The very idea of slavery is offensive to them, and that leads to an animosity toward all involved. I think that was pretty much the standard sentiment of the average Republican voter in 1860.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    well, some areas of oregon were settled by people from the south, so i don’t know. but yes, there is prejudice against southern people from what i’ve seen, though that happens in much of the urban west.

    but there’s a reason the cities are named ‘portland’ and ‘salem.’

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Razib Khan

    Right, some of eastern Oregon has a Southern feel to it. The ranching country in particular. But as I recall it's very sparsely populated. One of the curious things about the Pacific NW is that despite its remote location it was directly influenced by British before Americans settled there in large numbers. This, I guess, is why you find the large percentage of people claiming English ancestry in the part of Washington immediately south of Vancouver Island. There are mixed English and Spanish names all up and down Puget Sound. I live near Mt. Baker (one of Captain Vancouver's shipmates), which is clearly visible from the San Juan Islands, for example. A little further north and you have mixed English and Russian names.

    But in Seattle proper, where I grew up, the early Republican influence is obvious. There's Union and Republican streets, McLellan street (Scots Irish Union general BTW), Fremont Ave. and the entire neighborhood of Fremont, Lake Union, Union Bay, Lincoln Park and certainly some others I don't even know about. Also, the Union Civil War veterans' plot in Lakeview Cemetery is very impressive. A Confederates' plot exists as well, but it is very humble - even a little sad - in comparison.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  • re: slavery & racism, people are trapped into a progressive model of history. the reality is from a modern perspective there was a ‘recession’ between 1800 and 1860, especially, in the south. then, there was a secondary recession between 1875 and the early 1900s.

    additionally, there is the fact that many anti-slavery people were as anti-black, or more so, than people that accepted the institution. e.g., my home state of oregon was founded explicitly as a non-slave white state.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Razib Khan


    additionally, there is the fact that many anti-slavery people were as anti-black, or more so, than people that accepted the institution. e.g., my home state of oregon was founded explicitly as a non-slave white state.
     
    Ever read Sometimes a Great Notion? That attitude is captured very well in the descriptions of Oregon settlers' views concerning both blacks and Southerners. I've run into it up here in exurban/rural Western Washington as well -- even today. People are not so friendly toward blacks, and they're at least as hostile to white Southerners. They seem to think anyone with that accent is a degenerate or an imbecile.

    The very idea of slavery is offensive to them, and that leads to an animosity toward all involved. I think that was pretty much the standard sentiment of the average Republican voter in 1860.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • @Yudi
    @Bill P

    "A little known fact about Scots Irish is that they also tended to oppose slavery, on account of so many of their brethren having been shipped off in chains to colonial plantations, which may as well have been death camps."

    I am always very skeptical of claims like this. The reading I've done demonstrates that all non-black groups in the South disliked slavery for a generation or two, but then became tolerant of it at the very least. More often they became enthusiastic supporters and practitioners of the institution. This includes the Native Americans living in that area.

    Statements like this seek to put a satisfying modern interpretation on what our ancestors actually believed and did. Read James Oakes' The Ruling Race if you want more information: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393317056/

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    cotton gin + rise of a universalist white consciousness in the south (and to some extent the whole USA) during age of jackson.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    cotton gin + rise of a universalist white consciousness in the south (and to some extent the whole USA) during age of jackson.

    Two things that the nouveau riche slave owners of the cotton revolution took care of immediately was to identify themselves as a planter as opposed to yeoman farmer and they imported educated New Englanders who lived in the household and taught the children, male and female.

    While Arkansas hardly had any public schools, Michigan had hundreds.

    The Cavaliers and Bourbons had no use for educated cotton pickers and saw-mill hands, but the Scotch-Irish disregarded, and to some extent still do, the benefits of public education to a larger society. This is greatly distorted by the racial divide. Can the lack of support for public education be separated on the bases of Bourbon hostility, traditional Scotch-Irish individualism and historical racial animosity?

  • @Bill P
    @Razib Khan

    I'm half Scots Irish, and none of my Scots Irish ancestry comes from south of Pennsylvania/Ohio, while some comes from as far north as New Hampshire and Vermont (New Englanders imported them to act as a buffer against the Indians). The reason you don't see many Southerners calling themselves "English" is because most of them would choose "American" or "Southern" as their ethnicity. But in fact the South is one of the most English parts of the country, both culturally and in terms of ancestry. They love tea, gardens, hunting with hounds, riding and literature. Names like Adams, Smith, Johnson and the like are more common there than in the rest of the country.

    As for the Scots Irish, after they pushed West past the Appalachians (which legions of them did in the early 19th century), most of them seem to have lost their Scots Irishness and settled into a comfortable "American" identity. In my family, for example, none of them even stayed with the Presbyterian Church. You'd never even guess they were Scots Irish unless you knew a lot about surnames. They were absorbed seamlessly into American institutions, the military being one of the most important, and when they emerged they were nothing like the caricature of the Scots Irish hillbilly. However, arguably their overrepresentation in the military does suggest a certain retention of their ancient martial tradition. My pet theory is that the Scots Irish are actually descended from the north Brythonic speaking people, AKA the Picts. Many of their surnames, such as Knox, Wallace and Abercrombie strongly suggest this to be the case.

    Lots of Mormons call themselves English because so many working class English were recruited by the early Mormon church in the 19th century, often straight out of the slums. These people never had the opportunity to assimilate into an American identity.

    BTW, in Ireland people still use the word "crack" (whence "cracker" derives) to describe a certain atmosphere of lighthearted banter and fellowship. They spell it "craic," and I've seen pubs that advertised themselves as having "good craic," which struck me as pretty funny. Americans still occasionally use the archaic crack in expressions such as "not all it's cracked up to be" or "wisecrack."

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    The reason you don’t see many Southerners calling themselves “English” is because most of them would choose “American” or “Southern” as their ethnicity.

    why are you telling me this? i’ve blogged this.

    My pet theory is that the Scots Irish are actually descended from the north Brythonic speaking people, AKA the Picts. Many of their surnames, such as Knox, Wallace and Abercrombie strongly suggest this to be the case.

    no, not picts technically. probably the northern britons who were part of the kingdom of rheged and later became the rump of strathclyde (cumbria obviously cognate to cymru). the pictish lands were further north, and generally those areas never under roman domination.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    @Razib Khan


    why are you telling me this? i’ve blogged this.
     
    Missed that one.

    no, not picts technically. probably the northern britons who were part of the kingdom of rheged and later became the rump of strathclyde (cumbria obviously cognate to cymru). the pictish lands were further north, and generally those areas never under roman domination.
     
    You're right, not technically Picts as in straight line from Picts to Scots Irish, but certainly they contributed to the people now known as Scots Irish (Edinburgh was a major Pictish center back in Roman times). "Scots Irish" as an ethnicity is as much a product of religion as ancestry/geography. If any man created a Scots Irish identity, it was John Knox. Ironically, they were as Calvinist as the Puritans, but obviously a very different people. I don't think their reputation as a bunch of louts is deserved. If anything, they were hated because they were so militant, and because of that people were scared of them.

    It's because they were such implacable warriors that they have a bad reputation today. But without them, there would be no United States of America. Not only were they the most solidly pro-independence of all colonial Americans, they were also eager and willing to lay down their lives for it. A little known fact about Scots Irish is that they also tended to oppose slavery, on account of so many of their brethren having been shipped off in chains to colonial plantations, which may as well have been death camps.

    Replies: @Yudi

  • @Halvorson
    @Razib Khan

    3) *albion’s seed* does not say that scots-irish = the south.

    The thing is, this post does. When you say,

    The original Mormons were by and large Yankees, and their migration west took them into the lands of the Scots-Irish, who descended upon them like wolves to the slaughter, as was often the case when Yankees faced Scots-Irish in an unorganized fashion.

    it sure makes it seem as 1830s Missouri was majority Scotch Irish when it wasn't even close. If by "Scotch-Irish" you mean borderers, then you can say that. But even if you're being as generous to Fischer as possible borderers never outnumbered regular English folk in the South. If you add up the Scotch Irish+ all the Scots +25% percent (the number Fischer chose) of the English in Purvis that non-Borderer English remain the dominant ethnicity in every state but South Carolina and Tennessee, where they're about even.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    yeah, i saw that in the reread. that wasn’t correct to write.

    but in the original comment you seemed to assert that *albion’s seed* said that. it didn’t.

  • @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    Carolina planters were in from the gitgo. I don't known of any migration impact from the Haiti rebellion. Haiti increased the fear of slave rebellion which was already at fever pitch.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    Thanks for the link to the paper. I will have to complete it later, it looks very interesting. I find it quite telling that interspersed with scholarly writing there are all these little moral messages. Many, many inoculations against charges of racial insensitivity. It appears that one cannot just write history anymore; you have project everything back and keep repeating, “We don’t think like that anymore.”

    I just didn’t understand the point about Carolina planters, some few that came from Barbados, but the original ones that built the rice and indigo and Sea Island cotton plantations were mostly English.

    Alexandre Pétion of Haiti gave Simon Bolivar a substantial assist with men and material at a crucial and trying time in Bolivar’s struggle.

  • @Yudi
    @Razib Khan

    The Cavalier culture is not *currently* capturing the national imagination, because it has been in decline for decades, as Woodard pointed out in his book. It was once a very important component of the national culture--Southerners used to be proud to point out that national heroes like Washington and Jefferson were slaveholding planters, whereas today those facts are unpleasant and swept under the rug.

    However, there is a third Southern subculture that Fischer does not discuss in Albion's Seed, namely the Deep South (probably because a) the Carolina planters came from elsewhere in the New World, not a region of Britain; and b) because he presumably wanted to keep the book under a thousand pages). Woodard does talk about them, however, and they do still loom large in the national imagination, viz. Dylan Roof.

    The current Mormon alliance is mainly with the Scots-Irish and the Deep South, as Tidewater is disappearing.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Twinkie

    the carolina planters from carib. also somewhat later in time than the other migrations, right? didn’t a lot of it happen after 1800, with french leaving haiti and british abolition of slavery in 1830s?

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    Carolina planters were in from the gitgo. I don't known of any migration impact from the Haiti rebellion. Haiti increased the fear of slave rebellion which was already at fever pitch.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • Episode 728: The Wells Fargo Hustle. Elizabeth Warren is right, there won't be any accountability at the top. Hope I'm wrong. Started reading A New History of Western Philosophy last summer, but got bogged down in the medieval section. I started reading it last week and it's going much faster now that I'm in the...
  • @iffen
    @Sean

    What?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i let sean comment here “for entertainment purposes only” 🙂

  • There has been lots of comment on Mormons and politics recently. I think the key aspect which is underemphasized in these pieces are the deep differences within Anglo-American cultural streams (as opposed to the short-term reasons for Mormon disaffection from the conservative coalition, such as their internationalism). If you haven't read Albion's Seed, you should....
  • @Halvorson
    Your post here is mostly about Mormons, but I feel the need to push back against "the Southerners are Scotch-Irish" meme that Albion's Seed and this blog have made so popular. I was skeptical of this and so I dug through Fischer's sources looking for raw numbers and found this table, based on a surname study by Purvis:

    https://postimg.org/image/7nf370pbz/

    Southerners were only 15 percent Scotch Irish in 1790, at which point emigration from Ulster had ceased. This number is perfectly consistent with the genealogical digging I've done on Southern signers of the Declaration of Independence and Confederate generals with well documented pedigrees. The entirety of the South's cultural distinctiveness cannot be explained away by pointing to this very small minority of people.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @iffen, @PD Shaw

    a few points

    1) some ppl on this blog have pointed out that in places like w. virginia there are lots of ppl from england proper

    2) ‘scots-irish’ does not obviously mean just ulster. includes those coming directly from south scotland/north england

    3) *albion’s seed* does not say that scots-irish = the south. the lowland cavalier culture is important, and shaped the ‘bourbon’ elite a lot. but for whatever reason it hasn’t captured the national imagination.

    • Replies: @Yudi
    @Razib Khan

    The Cavalier culture is not *currently* capturing the national imagination, because it has been in decline for decades, as Woodard pointed out in his book. It was once a very important component of the national culture--Southerners used to be proud to point out that national heroes like Washington and Jefferson were slaveholding planters, whereas today those facts are unpleasant and swept under the rug.

    However, there is a third Southern subculture that Fischer does not discuss in Albion's Seed, namely the Deep South (probably because a) the Carolina planters came from elsewhere in the New World, not a region of Britain; and b) because he presumably wanted to keep the book under a thousand pages). Woodard does talk about them, however, and they do still loom large in the national imagination, viz. Dylan Roof.

    The current Mormon alliance is mainly with the Scots-Irish and the Deep South, as Tidewater is disappearing.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Twinkie

    , @Halvorson
    @Razib Khan

    3) *albion’s seed* does not say that scots-irish = the south.

    The thing is, this post does. When you say,

    The original Mormons were by and large Yankees, and their migration west took them into the lands of the Scots-Irish, who descended upon them like wolves to the slaughter, as was often the case when Yankees faced Scots-Irish in an unorganized fashion.

    it sure makes it seem as 1830s Missouri was majority Scotch Irish when it wasn't even close. If by "Scotch-Irish" you mean borderers, then you can say that. But even if you're being as generous to Fischer as possible borderers never outnumbered regular English folk in the South. If you add up the Scotch Irish+ all the Scots +25% percent (the number Fischer chose) of the English in Purvis that non-Borderer English remain the dominant ethnicity in every state but South Carolina and Tennessee, where they're about even.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    , @Bill P
    @Razib Khan

    I'm half Scots Irish, and none of my Scots Irish ancestry comes from south of Pennsylvania/Ohio, while some comes from as far north as New Hampshire and Vermont (New Englanders imported them to act as a buffer against the Indians). The reason you don't see many Southerners calling themselves "English" is because most of them would choose "American" or "Southern" as their ethnicity. But in fact the South is one of the most English parts of the country, both culturally and in terms of ancestry. They love tea, gardens, hunting with hounds, riding and literature. Names like Adams, Smith, Johnson and the like are more common there than in the rest of the country.

    As for the Scots Irish, after they pushed West past the Appalachians (which legions of them did in the early 19th century), most of them seem to have lost their Scots Irishness and settled into a comfortable "American" identity. In my family, for example, none of them even stayed with the Presbyterian Church. You'd never even guess they were Scots Irish unless you knew a lot about surnames. They were absorbed seamlessly into American institutions, the military being one of the most important, and when they emerged they were nothing like the caricature of the Scots Irish hillbilly. However, arguably their overrepresentation in the military does suggest a certain retention of their ancient martial tradition. My pet theory is that the Scots Irish are actually descended from the north Brythonic speaking people, AKA the Picts. Many of their surnames, such as Knox, Wallace and Abercrombie strongly suggest this to be the case.

    Lots of Mormons call themselves English because so many working class English were recruited by the early Mormon church in the 19th century, often straight out of the slums. These people never had the opportunity to assimilate into an American identity.

    BTW, in Ireland people still use the word "crack" (whence "cracker" derives) to describe a certain atmosphere of lighthearted banter and fellowship. They spell it "craic," and I've seen pubs that advertised themselves as having "good craic," which struck me as pretty funny. Americans still occasionally use the archaic crack in expressions such as "not all it's cracked up to be" or "wisecrack."

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • Episode 728: The Wells Fargo Hustle. Elizabeth Warren is right, there won't be any accountability at the top. Hope I'm wrong. Started reading A New History of Western Philosophy last summer, but got bogged down in the medieval section. I started reading it last week and it's going much faster now that I'm in the...
  • @Jason Liu
    One person means that Nara was cosmopolitan and treated foreigners equally? Sounds a little wishful. The Japan Times is a far left tabloid that caters to disgruntled ex-pats who find fault with everything. Take with a grain of salt.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Twinkie

    the interp. dump/anachronistic, yes.

  • Online Life Is Real Life, Aleph-Nought in a Series: It's a major pet peeve of mine that people deduce from what they see on this blog and Twitter to generate a full picture of whom I am. If the data you saw were representative, then that might be one thing, but they really aren't. Rather,...
  • @Twinkie
    @Razib Khan


    i would say defense. but depends on how you define defense. e.g., i would count finding and beating up the kid who called me a ‘sand nigger’ in gym class defense. but it might seem offensive since i waited until after school ended so as not to be disruptive (i just made sure to tail him after the last period).
     
    Ambush is offense. Put another way, tactical offense, strategic defense.

    Were there more than one kid who you called you names like that? Where did you grow up?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    yes. eastern oregon.

  • @Twinkie
    @Razib Khan


    plenty.
     
    Offense or defense?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i would say defense. but depends on how you define defense. e.g., i would count finding and beating up the kid who called me a ‘sand nigger’ in gym class defense. but it might seem offensive since i waited until after school ended so as not to be disruptive (i just made sure to tail him after the last period).

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    @Razib Khan


    i would say defense. but depends on how you define defense. e.g., i would count finding and beating up the kid who called me a ‘sand nigger’ in gym class defense. but it might seem offensive since i waited until after school ended so as not to be disruptive (i just made sure to tail him after the last period).
     
    Ambush is offense. Put another way, tactical offense, strategic defense.

    Were there more than one kid who you called you names like that? Where did you grow up?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • @Twinkie

    I’m rather aggressive
     
    Have you ever been in a fight? That is, a physical altercation?

    That is, it’s importance was not as a narrative about the historical past, but possibilities for narrative frameworks relevant for organizing the political present.
     
    This is exceedingly common in the field of history. So much of history as a discipline is devoted to - anachronistically and retrospectively - looking at the past through today's framework, because the real goal of the producers of such "history" is not to discover the true nature of the past through an objective lens but to remake today in accord with the philosophies of the said historians. This tendency infects every sub-genre within the field of history, including what once was my own - military history.

    Replies: @Talha, @Razib Khan

    Have you ever been in a fight? That is, a physical altercation?

    plenty.

    • Replies: @Sean
    @Razib Khan

    You can kickstart brain cancer by getting a hard knock on the head.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Twinkie
    @Razib Khan


    plenty.
     
    Offense or defense?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • A friend asked me about population structure, and methods to ferret it out and classify it. So here is a quick survey on the major methods I'm familiar with/utilize now and then. I'll go roughly in chronological order. First, you have trees. These are pretty popular from macroevolutionary relationships, but on the population genetic scale...
  • @ohwilleke
    * "For example, if you are assigning populations for TreeMix, you should use PCA and model-based clustering to make sure that the populations are clear and distinct, and outliers are removed."

    Are there population structure tools that automate the identification of likely outliers or hidden structure starting from an initial imperfectly accurate grouping of individuals into populations the way you might by hand with a PCA?

    In the way we do population genetics today with populations with a couple to a hundred or so samples per population the sorting of outliers by hand method works well enough. But, if you have samples of tens of thousands of people per population, the way a mature version of a service like 23andme does, you'd really need to automate the process.

    * Are there tools that are well suited to determining whether a given population has meaningful within population structure or not (perhaps quantifying the extent to which the population has structure), without elucidating the nature of that within group structure?

    I'm thinking about a tool that might complement a tool like Admixture's which models an arbitrary number of K populations to let you know when to stop because you have captured all or X% of the structure existing in the sample.

    More concretely I am also thinking about a tool that could distinguish between say, the population within a state in India that would have lots of regional and caste structure, and a population like Lutherans from Wisconsin, or global unadmixed Chinese migrant merchant communities that might have very little further internal structure. Within group variation in genes alone wouldn't suffice, because some groups like an unstructured group of Khoi-San might have high but unstructured genetic diversity, while others might have small but clearly demarkated divisions.

    I could imagine something like a Monte Carlo based approach that might compare the FST values between subpopulations divided on the basis of a large number of pre-determined haplotypes (in parts of the genome where all humans have reached fixation on just one) in the autosomal genome, with some haplotype divisions producing large FST values and some haplotype divisions producing low FST values in some coherent manner signaling likely substructure, while a sample with similar FST values for all haplotype divisions signaling little substructure, and assigned a single number to those results.

    You could figure out analytically the score that would result from pure random variation and assign that value 1.0, with a higher score reflecting more structure (perhaps in units of standard deviation or chi-squared), and with low values reflecting an unnaturally unstructured population like the relatively recent descendants of a small founding population (or a rogue sperm donor) or at zero, a population made up entirely of perfect clones of each other (a la Star Wars clone wars) or a population that reproduces non-sexually (which amounts to pretty much the same thing).

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    Are there population structure tools that automate the identification of likely outliers or hidden structure starting from an initial imperfectly accurate grouping of individuals into populations the way you might by hand with a PCA?

    finestructure includes a lot of the stuff u r talking about

    • Replies: @ohwilleke
    @Razib Khan

    Cool. Thanks. Is that open access or pricey?

  • Online Life Is Real Life, Aleph-Nought in a Series: It's a major pet peeve of mine that people deduce from what they see on this blog and Twitter to generate a full picture of whom I am. If the data you saw were representative, then that might be one thing, but they really aren't. Rather,...
  • @jb
    A hypothetical (and perfectly serious) question: if I were to meet you in person and spend some time with you, how likely do you think it is that I would learn anything that significantly contradicted the picture of you I've generated in reading this blog? I might learn something new, sure, but what are the chances I would learn anything that actually surprised me?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i’m much more forgiving in real life. or at least that’s what people who know me ‘on blog’ and off socially have told me. e.g., a scientist i know thought i’d be much more ‘severe’ than i was. i look young for my age, and act young for my age too fwiw.

    but then, i don’t know what you think of me. #shrug

    • Replies: @ohwilleke
    @Razib Khan

    "i look young for my age, and act young for my age too fwiw."

    This can suck when you're in your late 20s or in your 30s and trying to get people to take you seriously, but it rocks when you get to your 50s and beyond.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  • A few days ago I joked on Facebook that life isn't about the score up on the board, but standing with your team. By this, I have come to the position that when it comes to arguments and debates the details of the models and facts, and who even wins in each round, is irrelevant...
  • @Sean

    http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/december-13/mapping-mindsets.html
    Recently, we tested approximately 400 undergraduates at an elite American university. About half of them were of European descent, while the remaining half were native Asians, none of whom had spent more than 7 years in the US at the time. They filled out a series of self-report scales designed to assess their self-perception, self-esteem, and other aspects of independence, as well as their sense of interdependence. Replicating many previous studies, we found that European Americans were both more independent and less interdependent compared to Asians. Importantly, this cultural difference was quite pronounced for those Asians and European Americans who carried a high-dopamine variant of DRD4. In fact, among non-carriers of these high dopamine gene variants, the cultural difference was absent. It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture
     
    Asians who oppose OiYan Poon's policies are basically recent Chinese immigrants.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    Asians who oppose OiYan Poon’s policies are basically recent Chinese immigrants.

    that’s what poon says. she provides no evidence. and frankly neither to do you, but that’s par for the course in your case.

  • @Obamadon_Imbecilis
    @Razib Khan

    Well, if it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't mind if you spent most of your life writing stuff on the internet, on the grounds that you're one of few people actually good at it. I apologize if I'm just wishing out loud for something you have no interest in.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @theo the kraut, @Robert Ford

    Fair enuf.

  • @jtgw
    Are you saying you changed your view on reality? That you no longer believe in objective reality, but rather than reality is constructed by human prejudice and the desire for social cohesion? Or are you simply conceding that most arguments have the aim of reinforcing that cohesion, rather than discovering what is really out there? I suspect the latter, but I hope you can confirm that.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    the latter. and i always believed this. but reading ‘post modern’ stuff in the original makes it more clear to me why this set of thinkers and people influenced by this thought seem to abrogate all rules of dialogue so casually (this is not a feature of what i may perhaps term the ‘positivist left,’ which includes most scientists).

  • @Matt
    Great article. But because the professor would have a very small audience does it really matter what her narrative is?

    In the FT the other week:

    In the end Bruce Springsteen won. On the Mount Rushmore of 1980s stadium-scale stardom, there are musicians more famous (Michael Jackson), more lavishly skilled (Prince) and more adaptable to trends (Madonna). But only one saw where his country and the rich world were going, which is why Born to Run, the memoir he publishes next month and previewed this week, feels — in that coveted accolade of the rock community — “relevant”.

    Rock stars and reality TV stars, with their massive audiences, have a huge advantage over the intelligentsia.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @notanon

    Rock stars and reality TV stars, with their massive audiences, have a huge advantage over the intelligentsia.

    pop culture is a reflection of high culture. the views of pop culture now reflect a lot of critical race theory.

  • @Obamadon_Imbecilis
    Realistically, I think the NYT incident is a signal that any attempt to side with the left probably won't work, especially because a Hillary victory would likely mean an attempt to crack down on "hate speech" and "harassment" online, and your past heresies are too great. Your best bet is to try to catch on as "articulate token brown guy" at one of the bigger conservative websites like Breitbart, kind of like how Milo is a token gay guy. Since Hillary has seen fit to explicitly target the alt right, in spite of the relative obscurity of even its bigger names, trying to fly under the radar as a thought criminal is becoming more difficult and dangerous. The Trump campaign has done a lot to destroy the media's credibility in the eyes of the public, putting us in a situation in which a lot of powerful and nasty people feel their power threatened while still retaining the resources to persecute those they dislike. I wish you well in your quest to find strong allies, because I really respect what you do.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    I think the NYT incident is a signal that any attempt to side with the left probably won’t work

    why would i side with the left? i’m on the right, and always have been. your comment misunderstands what i’m saying if you think i’m looking for a side. i have a side. it’s just not a totalistic or very important aspect of my personality.

    Your best bet is to try to catch on as “articulate token brown guy” at one of the bigger conservative websites like Breitbart

    best bet for what? do you even know what i do for most of my life? it’s not write stuff on the internet.

    • Replies: @Obamadon_Imbecilis
    @Razib Khan

    Well, if it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't mind if you spent most of your life writing stuff on the internet, on the grounds that you're one of few people actually good at it. I apologize if I'm just wishing out loud for something you have no interest in.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @theo the kraut, @Robert Ford

  • @Douglas Knight

    They believe because it is absurd.
     
    Are you reversing Voltaire's maxim? They believe absurdities to signal that they will commit atrocities? This seems different from the rest of your post, which seems to be saying that people believe absurdities because they are convenient excuses for favoring their team in the short term; in contrast to believing absurdities to increase asabiyah. They could both be true, but it seemed like a jump to a different topic in the last paragraph.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    • Replies: @Douglas Knight
    @Razib Khan

    Thanks!

  • In The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World the archaeologist David Anthony outlines the thesis that migrations from the west Eurasian steppe during the Bronze Age reshaped the culture of Northern Europe. When Anthony published the book, which you should really read if you are...
  • @Helga Vierich
    @Razib Khan

    I don’t see why- there have been many researchers through that region even since the genocides took place. Forensic work alone would provide a pile of interesting DNA results.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    my understanding is that the current rwandan gov. wants to deemphasize hutu/tutsi differences. years ago i looked at the 23andMe genotype of someone who was 1/2 tutsi. they were shifted strongly toward cushitic populations in proportion to their admixture.

    yes, there are samples.

  • @Helga Vierich
    Has anyone checked for the a similar genetic pattern in Hutu populations? Tutsi intermarried with the horticultural populations they dominated. It might be useful to look for similar patterns in the case of other outward spreading predatory pastoral economies. In fact. the entire prehistory of the Bantu-language agro=pastoral expansion southward through central Africa might be another example of this kind of phenomenon.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Erik Sieven

    ideological reasons hard to get some samples from those two populations.

    • Replies: @Helga Vierich
    @Razib Khan

    I don’t see why- there have been many researchers through that region even since the genocides took place. Forensic work alone would provide a pile of interesting DNA results.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • yes, see *war before civilization*

  • At a readers' suggestion I got Explaining Postmodernism: Skepticism and Socialism from Rousseau to Foucault. Unlike The Dialectical Imagination this is not necessarily a detached academic book. Rather, the author has a definite perspective. About 20 years ago I read George H. Smith's Atheism: The Case Against God, and there are a lot of similarities...
  • @RaceRealist88
    @Pseudonymic Handle

    Hybrid vigor doesn't apply to humans as we are already heterozygous at .776, correct me if I'm wrong Razib.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    we don’t know. i’m skeptical. the real thing is masking of deleterious alleles, not heterosis.

    we’re not het on .7 or .8. most of our genome isn’t variable. you’re talking about SNPs that are very poly

  • @Slon
    @Slon

    Fair enough, I apologize for getting riled up. Frustrating to read outlandish agenda-driven statements though. Far more ink spilt critiquing the humanities than sciences, by orders of magnitude. Just on Plato alone...

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Seth Largo

    i got it. i’m skeptical of the assertion with less knowledge than you.

  • @Slon
    Aside from statistics, mathematics and hard sciences have leapfrogged postmodern critique in other areas. Role of the observer (measurement) in relativity and quantum theories and recognition of limits of formal languages (Godel) are examples. I do see value in postmodern critique when it is applied to "soft" discourses such as humanities.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Seth Largo

    I do see value in postmodern critique when it is applied to “soft” discourses such as humanities.

    yes.

  • @Tulip
    @Razib Khan

    Not sure what you mean by "post-modernism" without further elaboration (Foucault is not Derrida is not Fish, etc.).

    However, there is empirical evidence that the metaphors we use to describe social phenomenon impact attitudes. For example, if one uses the metaphor of a disease or cancer to describe a social phenomenon, it elicits a political response different from the metaphor of a rainbow. As much as the empirical world is partially independent of our conceptions, it is in other ways inexorably shaded by our conceptions. Seen from one dimension, politics is an existential struggle between rival metaphors. [Since politics is contained within the space we call natural, then metaphor must be seen as a much a feature of the natural order as the concept of species.]

    I am basically Platonic--the world of sensation can only be cognized through linguistic categories--and concepts such as truth or falsehood ultimately rest on social conventions. [What rests on convention can be known with complete certainty.] That being said, the conventions exist to allow for the possibility of open questions, e.g. questions subject to empirical falsification. The metaphor would be something like Chess--the point of the closed and fixed rules of Chess is to allow an open-ended process to take place, namely play. However, just as there could be no Chess without an arbitrary sets of conventions, there could be no empirical science without a set of conventions, institutions, and norms, all of which is mostly historically arbitrary. So the primacy of the word is irrefutable, and only through the word can any system like empirical science--and empirical description--come into being (ergo why humans have science and monkeys do not even though we presumably share the same empirical world governed by the same empirical regularities).

    As far as the "rationalist" and "objective reality" crowd, Descartes specifically excluded the mind from the net of scientific reification. Because the framework which reifies the other in this sense transcends the other, the mental categories by which the physical world is reified must transcend the physical world, or you get self-reference. [The map can't be at the same time the territory.] But the mind can't be excluded, ergo any attempt to describe the totality will blow up in some version of the liars paradox or Godel's Incompleteness theorem--which is why sophisticated people embrace the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Ergo, the world transcends any system of reification, and therefore we cannot arrive at some ultimate explanation of the world, so we must embrace that the most fundamental truths could only be revealed through something like unknowing.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    future comments in this vein need to be more concise to be published. can’t tolerate so much prolix elaboration on common sense as metaphysical profundity.

    • Replies: @Tulip
    @Razib Khan

    Fine. At least you seem to identify my remarks with common sense. That's getting off lightly with Razib Khan.

    What do you mean that "statistics" protects against "post-modernism"?

    I suspect the basis of philosophical problems stems largely from attempting to talk about a world of contrasts with a language of dualism. [Besides appeals to transcendence to get around the problem of self-reference, of course. This, in turn, provokes a skepticism, and the whole thing goes round and round in circles.]

    , @Tulip
    @Razib Khan

    Summary:

    Most conventional philosophical accounts offered by naturalists/empiricists fail, because they remain rooted in Cartesian assumptions (subjective/objective split, natural/supernatural split, etc.) while rejecting the Cartesian mind, which is the transcendent Archimedean point which holds Cartesianism together. In other words, they try to do "Descartes" without the Cartesian mind, without recognizing the logical dependency of the entire system on the mind.

    The naturalists seem to be the enemies of the "Post-Modernists", but I find to the extent the "Post-Moderns" are rooted in historicism and language, they generally have more insights, even if they are wrong. Hume, Hamann, Herder--there is the thread.

    Replies: @Thursday

  • @braziliananon
    @Pseudonymic Handle

    As a Brazilian (a country which the majority is mixed-raced, as myself), I can't vouch for that, depends on who you're mixing with, and many mixed raced people are not nice looking, not by far; sure, some are good looking, but the majority it's not, trust me.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Centrosphere, @Sean

    what they should really say is that inbreeding is bad. the racial aspect is a corollary, and not a necessary one.

  • @Jesse
    Statistical thinking is not mutually exclusive with a modernist or postmodernist perspective.

    Certainly I shudder at intellectuals who claim that science is an ideology, but I don't personally see science as a reductively comprehensive philosophy. Frankly, I'll admit that i'd probably need a better perspective on what aspects of post modernism are being described here before trying to defend it from the perspective of a moderately pro numerate pro science stance.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    Statistical thinking is not mutually exclusive with a modernist or postmodernist perspective.

    first, i’m talking about postmodernism. not modernism.

    Certainly I shudder at intellectuals who claim that science is an ideology, but I don’t personally see science as a reductively comprehensive philosophy.

    are you talking to me? if so, i’m not proposing scientism, since i didn’t mention it or imply it.

    I’ll admit that i’d probably need a better perspective on what aspects of post modernism are being described here before trying to defend it from the perspective of a moderately pro numerate pro science stance.

    postmodernism rejects strawman platonic social constructions (e.g., the ‘gender binary’) and replaces them with a uniform distribution. as if those are the only two options. the postmodern framework makes more sense (to me) if you actually behave is if categories/constructions are what is doing the creating, rather than them being human tools to construct a map of reality (which is the standard realist position pretty clearly adhere to by scientists). i think this sort of neo-platonism is a lot less persuasive if you think of the world in various distributions and probabilities.

    • Replies: @Tulip
    @Razib Khan

    Not sure what you mean by "post-modernism" without further elaboration (Foucault is not Derrida is not Fish, etc.).

    However, there is empirical evidence that the metaphors we use to describe social phenomenon impact attitudes. For example, if one uses the metaphor of a disease or cancer to describe a social phenomenon, it elicits a political response different from the metaphor of a rainbow. As much as the empirical world is partially independent of our conceptions, it is in other ways inexorably shaded by our conceptions. Seen from one dimension, politics is an existential struggle between rival metaphors. [Since politics is contained within the space we call natural, then metaphor must be seen as a much a feature of the natural order as the concept of species.]

    I am basically Platonic--the world of sensation can only be cognized through linguistic categories--and concepts such as truth or falsehood ultimately rest on social conventions. [What rests on convention can be known with complete certainty.] That being said, the conventions exist to allow for the possibility of open questions, e.g. questions subject to empirical falsification. The metaphor would be something like Chess--the point of the closed and fixed rules of Chess is to allow an open-ended process to take place, namely play. However, just as there could be no Chess without an arbitrary sets of conventions, there could be no empirical science without a set of conventions, institutions, and norms, all of which is mostly historically arbitrary. So the primacy of the word is irrefutable, and only through the word can any system like empirical science--and empirical description--come into being (ergo why humans have science and monkeys do not even though we presumably share the same empirical world governed by the same empirical regularities).

    As far as the "rationalist" and "objective reality" crowd, Descartes specifically excluded the mind from the net of scientific reification. Because the framework which reifies the other in this sense transcends the other, the mental categories by which the physical world is reified must transcend the physical world, or you get self-reference. [The map can't be at the same time the territory.] But the mind can't be excluded, ergo any attempt to describe the totality will blow up in some version of the liars paradox or Godel's Incompleteness theorem--which is why sophisticated people embrace the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Ergo, the world transcends any system of reification, and therefore we cannot arrive at some ultimate explanation of the world, so we must embrace that the most fundamental truths could only be revealed through something like unknowing.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • The map to the right shows GDP per capita in the European Union in 2014 broken down by regions. I've long observed that the wealthiest regions of Europe are disproportionately those which were long under Habsburg rule. This fact transcends ethnicity and religion. Catholic northern Italy, Catholic southern Germany, as well as Protestant Netherlands, are...
  • @Robert Ford
    So does this violate the hajnal line theory or is that not not a real thing in the first place?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i don’t care about the hajnal line theory.

    • Replies: @Robert Ford
    @Razib Khan

    Been waiting for the right moment to confirm that:)

  • Reading The Dialectical Imagination: A History of the Frankfurt School and the Institute of Social Research, 1923-1950. A good book. Dense. But it is clear (the author so admits) that it's only a superficial exploration of the ideas of the Frankfurt School. That being said, a lot of the abstruse and in my opinion wrong-headed...
  • @G. Bruno
    Count me among those skeptical of the Frankfurt School's influence on what today passes under the name "Critical Theory;" in my experience, it's more commonly used to refer to the body of French- (especially Foucault-)influenced work in the literary humanities and spreading out from there into all the various "studies." I'd be very surprised to see substantive references to Adorno, Marcuse, or Fromm in, say, Judith Butler's or Homi Bhabha's work—though I've read very little of the former and none of the latter, so I'll gladly accept correction from anyone who's put in the time—but I'd expect it to be lousy with Foucault, Derrida, and the like.

    Other than Habermas, who studied under Adorno & Horkheimer and is himself now a faded force, Critical Theory of the Frankfurt-type is mostly a dead letter in the academy, and its impact on the larger culture ended when people stopped caring about the SDS. The connection between the Frankfurt School and today's Critical Theory is, I think, merely nominal.

    (The fact that the contrary position usually gets argued via works typified by the sort of garbage to which Walter Sobchak links doesn't do much to boost my confidence.)

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Antonymous

    any good primer for modern critical theory?

    • Replies: @G. Bruno
    @Razib Khan

    Razib,

    I'm afraid I don't have any recommendations for you there; I'm more conversant with the Frankfurt School (and even there, more Adorno & Habermas than, say, Marcuse) than the current brand of critical theory. I share blankmisgiving's intuition in #40—a generally spot-on comment, imo—that Butler is probably a promising place to look if you're looking for major influences on the ideological arm of the social-justice left; I believe Gender Trouble is the, ahem, locus classicus.

    , @Whyvert
    @Razib Khan

    "any good primer for modern critical theory?"

    Here's a recommendation and review from the blog Lorenzo Thinking Out Loud:

    http://lorenzo-thinkingoutaloud.blogspot.com/2009/02/explaining-postmodernism.html

    I read the book on the strength of this review and am glad I did. It clarified a lot for me, particularly how and why a big part of the academic Left ("critical theory") has shifted against science, reason, and empiricism.

  • @John Chard
    @Razib Khan


    if you say something like this, name them. otherwise, you’re a gasbag.
     
    I normally try to avoid "those who" generalizations and respond to specific arguments made by specific people, but "political correctness" is such a nebulous idea/movement it's hard to resist the temptation. I would conjecture that Ta-Nehisi Coates, Michelle Alexander and maybe Elizabeth Hinton for starters are highly popular in p.c. culture. To make an unfortunately unsourced generalization again, most of the (fellow) Millenials I know who participate in left-wing identity politics get their ideas from reading blogs (e.g. "the Love Life of an Asian Guy"), Tumblr accounts and website like Everyday Feminism rather than from reading books.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    yes. tumblr.

    TNC is entirely derivative. i haven’t read alexander, though ppl cite her. perhaps i should. no idea who hinton is.

  • @Anonymous
    Dear Razib Landers,

    I got a 23andMe kit and gave the saliva sample and sent it back. I'm waiting for the analysis. When registering they gave me the opportunity to help in genetic research by filling out a bunch of questions about my background (race, ethnicity, health conditions, etc.). After I gave all of this information and submitted it, I started to have doubts. What if they use the ethnicity and background info to tailor the report to fit what I provided? I then thought if it this whole process is legit why wouldn't they ask for this background info AFTER I get my analysis back? Now I will view the result with some doubt in my mind. Any thoughts?

    Dubious in Boston

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i doubt they will fiddle with it too much, because you can get the raw data and check.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Razib Khan


    i doubt they will fiddle with it too much, because you can get the raw data and check.
     
    Thanks, I'll be arranging to have another one sent to another address with a fictitious name. And this time NOT fill out a questionnaire.
  • @JS
    When I was reading a lot of critical race theory and radical feminist books in college, there were definitely a lot of references to or quotes from theorists such as Foucault (his ideas about power, mental illness, criminality) or Derrida (deconstructionism), and of course Marx (class and the distribution of resources), Freud (psychoanalysis), and the Frankfurt School (transformation of society). These thinkers' ideas form the theoretical framework of much of today's "social justice warrior" movement or Cultural Marxism.

    One basic premise underlying all these different schools of thought is that our society and economy are essentially fabrications designed to maintain traditional power structures, i.e., white male patriarchy, and that they could be subverted by creating a new power structure through theoretical critique, deconstruction, and the rewriting of this narrative. Hence, it can be questioned whether men are really physically stronger than women, binary gender or race exists, or Western civilization is superior. In this framework there is no objective reality or truth - everything you believe is based on a myth, and this myth is making you behave in ways that perpetuate it, even to your own detriment. 'Why are you dominant? Are you really better than me?' The modern SJW incarnation of critical theory is "Marxist" in the sense that it believes in a form of egalitarianism that exists inherently among all people but is being suppressed through an oppressive ideology or system (white male patriarchy), and that power or resources can be redistributed to their proper places by removing these artificial restrictions.

    Whether the Frankfurt School's ultimate intent was the complete overthrow of Western Civilization is hard to say. They certainly criticized it and theorized it was based on false premises because they stood to gain from doing so, most of them being subaltern themselves and understanding deeply the psychology and motivations of that group. It is poetic justice that their own ideology is being used against them - all of them are old white males? Wow, I can't even.

    And while their ideologies are being used in some asinine ways lately, not everything they believed is without merit. Such as, what is mental illness? Foucault said that mentally ill people used to be consulted as oracles, but now they're institutionalized. And today people question whether childhood disorders such as ADHD or autism really exist or whether they are the misdiagnosing of normal child behavior. What is cognitively normal? Maybe you are just oppressing me with your lies.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Erik Sieven, @blankmisgivings

    there is usually gold in most things that you may in the main disagree with. i agree about this with critical race theory and the various flavors of post-modernism.

  • @Senator Brundlefly
    https://www.unz.com/freed/darwin-unhinged-the-bugs-in-evolution/

    I know you likely don't have the time (and in all likelihood it would probably be a waste) but as UNZ's resident biology man could you offer a rebuttal to this drivel? In the words of Helen Lovejoy, won't somebody please think of the children?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    #unpersuadables. fred has been going on in this vein for 20 years.

  • @John Chard
    @jb

    I find it unlikely in the extreme, given that most p.c. college students today don't seem to cite/have read any of the Frankfurt School authors, and that critical theory is an extremely fringe intellectual tradition. (As in, people with expertise in it can only find subsistence level academic positions and their books are marketed to tiny audiences.) Given the general hostility to European intellectuals among this crowd (AKA "dead white males"; see the student quoted in the New Yorker as saying she was sick of learning about Marx because he like didn't even include race in his analysis) I doubt they'd consider themselves the direct heirs of a predominantly European intellectual tradition. That non-white authors and activists are generally much preferred among p.c. types is my general impression.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @iffen

    That non-white authors and activists are generally much preferred among p.c. types is my general impression.

    if you say something like this, name them. otherwise, you’re a gasbag.

    it seems unlikely that PC kommissars have read their marcuse or adorno…but i have to admit that the way these thinkers frame their arguments and their lexicon does seem to have had some influence (the book i reference above was written in the 1970s, so this isn’t an after the fact work).

    • Replies: @John Chard
    @Razib Khan


    if you say something like this, name them. otherwise, you’re a gasbag.
     
    I normally try to avoid "those who" generalizations and respond to specific arguments made by specific people, but "political correctness" is such a nebulous idea/movement it's hard to resist the temptation. I would conjecture that Ta-Nehisi Coates, Michelle Alexander and maybe Elizabeth Hinton for starters are highly popular in p.c. culture. To make an unfortunately unsourced generalization again, most of the (fellow) Millenials I know who participate in left-wing identity politics get their ideas from reading blogs (e.g. "the Love Life of an Asian Guy"), Tumblr accounts and website like Everyday Feminism rather than from reading books.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    , @Karl Zimmerman
    @Razib Khan

    Do young critical race theorists still read Frantz Fanon? It's been many years, but I remember The Wretched of the Earth as the best of the post-colonialist works I was forced to read in college.

    Replies: @syonredux

  • @Joe Q.
    Razib -- how do you find the time to read as much as you do? As someone who (like you) also has young kids and both full- and part-time gigs, and who has a long reading list that I can't seem to make a dent in, I am genuinely curious. Do you spend all your leisure time reading, or are you an unusually fast reader, or both?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    kindle syncs across all devices. i don’t watch TV.

  • Jonathan Novembre and Benjamin Peter have posted a preprint of a review, Recent advances in the study of fine-scale population structure in humans, which readers will find useful. In particular, the citations are a gold-mine for anyone attempting to navigate this literature. The figure above from their preprint illustrates the number of markers needed to...
  • @res
    @Razib Khan

    Any idea what you would see if you subsetted to the 100 loci with the largest weightings in the 100k loci PC1 and PC2? How about if you looked at the structure using the 100k loci with those 100 removed? In other words, is the issue the sheer number of loci or just finding the loci which vary systematically across the populations?

    P.S. The ~1.5% variance explained for the 100 loci PC1 and PC2 implies to me that none of the loci selected matter much for evaluating the structure. Would you agree with that?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    In other words, is the issue the sheer number of loci or just finding the loci which vary systematically across the populations?

    the latter to some extent. though at this scale of Fst (low) going to be hard to find a significant number of ‘ancestrally informative markers’ with high Fst if you limited to 100, especially ones that are selectively neutral (e.g., lactase persistence is non-neutral in europe and varies a lot between population…).

    if you are talking intercontinental scale differences then risch et al. showed in the early 2000s than 30 well chosen markers are sufficient. if you have a very specific question, such as “is the person 100% european or 100% african”, then slc24a5 itself could answer that (100% in one variant in europeans, and 99% in africans in the other, except north and northeast africans).

    P.S. The ~1.5% variance explained for the 100 loci PC1 and PC2 implies to me that none of the loci selected matter much for evaluating the structure. Would you agree with that?

    if they’re randomly pulling out of the SNP-chip list the between population difference in europe is not going to be high for any given marker. so yeah.

    • Replies: @res
    @Razib Khan

    Thanks for the response. For those not as conversant with the literature (like me) here is a link to the Risch et al. paper:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC139378/

    And the relevant excerpt:


    In conjunction with Table ​Table2,2, we can estimate that about 120 unselected SNPs or 20 highly selected SNPs can distinguish group CA from NA, AA from AS and AA from NA. A few hundred random SNPs are required to separate CA from AA, CA from AS and AS from NA, or about 40 highly selected loci. STRP loci are more powerful and have higher effective δ values because they have multiple alleles. Table ​Table33 reveals that fewer than 100 random STRPs, or about 30 highly selected loci, can distinguish the major racial groups. As expected, differentiating Caucasians and Hispanic Americans, who are admixed but mostly of Caucasian ancestry, is more difficult and requires a few hundred random STRPs or about 50 highly selected loci. These results also indicate that many hundreds of markers or more would be required to accurately differentiate more closely related groups, for example populations within the same racial category.
     
    And here is the NYT (Nicholas Wade) take. I wonder if they would publish this today.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/30/health/genetics/30RACE.html?pagewanted=all
    , @Emil O. W. Kirkegaard
    @Razib Khan


    if you are talking intercontinental scale differences then risch et al. showed in the early 2000s than 30 well chosen markers are sufficient. if you have a very specific question, such as “is the person 100% european or 100% african”, then slc24a5 itself could answer that (100% in one variant in europeans, and 99% in africans in the other, except north and northeast africans).
     
    I'd like to note that the matter of whether 30 well-chosen AIMs are sufficient depends a lot on the goal. In our meta-analysis of individual-level genomic ancestry -- three-way split between African, Amerindian and European -- we came across a paper that used different numbers of variants to measure individual-level ancestry. Turns out, there is a lot of measurement error with just 30 variants. We wrote:

    "Using fewer markers results in more measurement error. Ruiz-Lineras (2014) was the only study that reported correlations between estimates using different numbers of markers. They noted that a recent study (Scharf et al., 2013) had found that using 15 markers resulted in correlations of about .60 with estimates derived from 50k markers. Furthermore, using 30 resulted in about r = .70 and using 152 resulted in about r = .85. Thus, it is clear that there are diminishing returns to using more markers, but that using more reduces measurement error."

    So using e.g. 30 variants results in _at least_ half the variance being measurement error or systematic bias, even when one only has to distinguish between three major racial clusters. It matters a lot if the goal is to look for correlations between individual-level ancestry and outcomes, such as medical conditions or cognitive ability. It matters less if one is interested in the mean levels of ancestry of groups, since the error would tend to cancel out.

    https://osf.io/ydc3f/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3605224/
  • @jb
    Just a general question: when you talk about sampling 100 loci or 10,000 loci, how are those loci chosen? Are you using all the information you have, which might be 100 loci, or 10,000, or some other number? Are you choosing at random some number of loci from a larger set (perhaps because you don't have the computing power to deal with the entire set)? Are you choosing your loci non-randomly in some way? I'm guessing the second option -- randomly plucking a manageable number of loci from a larger (complete?) set -- but it would be nice to have a clearer idea of what was going on here.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    these are randomly sampled from SNPs. these are themselves a subset of the positions in the wider genome so that they are polymorphic across populations. there are on the order of ~10 million of these (depending on how you set minor allele cut-off). the SNP-chips are variously ascertained, but usually have between 500 and 1 million markers now. if you are subset to 100 K you should probably at least make sure they are spaced apart so that LD isn’t an issue.

    good question. i was going to add that technical note….

    • Replies: @res
    @Razib Khan

    Any idea what you would see if you subsetted to the 100 loci with the largest weightings in the 100k loci PC1 and PC2? How about if you looked at the structure using the 100k loci with those 100 removed? In other words, is the issue the sheer number of loci or just finding the loci which vary systematically across the populations?

    P.S. The ~1.5% variance explained for the 100 loci PC1 and PC2 implies to me that none of the loci selected matter much for evaluating the structure. Would you agree with that?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • Parents Didn’t Just Dislike Super Nintendo 25 Years Ago—They Thought It Was a Scam. Fun fact: I stopped playing video games when I was 16. Mostly because it was taking up too much of my time. This means that I'm excluded from a lot of conversation and pop culture. So be it. Excited to be...
  • @Twinkie
    @syonredux


    Taking five seconds, my picks are: The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life , War Before Civilization: the Myth of the Peaceful Savage, and Reflections on the Revolution in France
     
    We have one book in common!

    1. The Bible
    2. The Art of War
    3. Nicomachean Ethics
    4. Reflections on the Revolution in France
    5. Dune*

    *Although I liked the first book of the series the most at first, now I appreciate the second and third installments more - especially the idea about a society being "afflicted" or cursed with a hero-figure as well as the notion that prescience (or perfect knowledge) being so oppressive to humanity that it must disperse beyond such knowledge in order to stave off stagnation and survive unexpected dangers of the future.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    1) the bible is such an uneven book. i’ve read genesis dozens of times. in contrast, leviticus a lot less.

    2) thinking of rereading the dune books. they dropped in quality in my recollection, though *god emperor* seemed to bring it back a little.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Razib Khan


    2) thinking of rereading the dune books. they dropped in quality in my recollection, though *god emperor* seemed to bring it back a little.
     
    Haven't looked at the Dune series since High School, but your recollections pretty much match mine in terms of quality decline.

    For my money, Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld series is probably the best example of complete collapse. Indeed, I typically advise people to not bother with any of the books after To Your Scattered Bodies Go (the first book in the series)
    , @Robert Ford
    @Razib Khan

    yeah, but did you know this? http://imgur.com/B5O8WD5

    , @Twinkie
    @Razib Khan


    1) the bible is such an uneven book. i’ve read genesis dozens of times. in contrast, leviticus a lot less.
     
    I'd like to think that the Bible offers a great diversity of reads. There is the whole teleological aspect of the Creation and the Apocalypse, of Genesis and the Revelations. There is great history of the very ancient peoples as well as that of the Age of the Koine Greek. There is the beautiful poetry and melody of the Psalms. There are timeless moral directives as well as the apologia of the Epistles. Then, of course, there is the revolutionary theology of Christ, God made Man... and the universal redemption through His Sacrifice.

    In the Bible, there is something for everyone.

    2) thinking of rereading the dune books. they dropped in quality in my recollection, though *god emperor* seemed to bring it back a little.
     
    When I was younger, I reveled in the revenge and heroism of the first book. The second and third books were disappointments after the crescendo of the first book, climaxing in the triumph of Paul Muad'Dib (and the restoration of the Atreides). A grand happy ending, if you will.

    When I got older, however, I began to think that the first book was a bit of a trap. It seemed like the true message of the author lied in books two and three - that heroes are seductive and bring enormous instability and destruction in their wake (and eventually oppression) instead of a promised land and that perfect knowledge is the death of mankind.
    , @Thursday
    @Razib Khan

    Leviticus is a dry legal text. However, interpreted by an insightful scholar, it has a lot of anthropological interest. Mary Douglas' Purity and Danger is best on the purity codes, while James B. Jordan and Peter Leithart are good on the temple stuff.

    But, yeah, you might want to mostly stick with the secondary lit here.

    ----

    Good summary of Douglas.

    Replies: @benjaminl

  • Several people have asked me about this article in Foreign Policy, Does Chinese Civilization Come From Ancient Egypt? It's interesting in terms of cultural commentary, and what it say about open-mindedness among the Chinese public and academy. In many ways the Chinese are much less open-minded than Westerners after decades of Marxism...but in other ways,...
  • @syonredux
    @Walter Sobchak


    From Wikipedia: History of China: “The Xia dynasty of China (from c. 2100 to c. 1600 BC) is the first dynasty to be described in ancient historical records”
     
    To the best of my knowledge, no evidence for the actual existence of the Xia has turned up. The earliest authenticated dynasty is the Shang (various dates given: 1766 to 1122 BC,1556 to 1046 BC, c. 1600 to 1046 BC).

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @John Massey, @Walter Sobchak

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia_dynasty#Archaeological_discoveries

    do remember though that the shang were legendary until they weren’t. i think it is likely that xia existed in some form, even if we can never confirm it….

    • Replies: @syonredux
    @Razib Khan


    do remember though that the shang were legendary until they weren’t. i think it is likely that xia existed in some form, even if we can never confirm it….
     
    Sure. The Shang didn't emerge from the soil fully grown, after all. They developed out of precursors. I'm just not completely comfortable with calling those precursors the Xia.
  • @Ben Gunn
    Hi R,
    What is story on the mummmmy picture that open this? Freaky.

    Thanks

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @John Massey

  • Parents Didn’t Just Dislike Super Nintendo 25 Years Ago—They Thought It Was a Scam. Fun fact: I stopped playing video games when I was 16. Mostly because it was taking up too much of my time. This means that I'm excluded from a lot of conversation and pop culture. So be it. Excited to be...
  • @marginalrealist
    What podcasts do you listen to?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    *Planet Money* *BHTV* *On Point* *In Our Time* *KERA Think* *Marketplace* *From Our Own Correspondent* *Here and Now* *Slate Money*

  • It is too much to assert to say that the Indian ocean is "our sea," writ large as a species. But it does certainly seem to be the case that this body of water does punch above its weight. It is likely that anatomically modern humans emerged not too far from its shores, while the...
  • @kashcit
    "One can make the case that it was the rational thing to do for maritime facing Southeast Asian polities to realign their culture focus from Dharmic religions to Islam." --> Can you please make this case?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    Can you please make this case?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta could already traverse from the middle east to china within a totally islamic world. after 1000 AD non-muslims seem to have been marginalized enough in the western indian ocean that muslims commonly became maritime specialists; e.g., in south india. in the eastern indian ocean aceh had become muslim in ~1000, and across southeast asia the maritime elites were already becoming mostly muslim, e.g., demak

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demak_Sultanate#Origins

    the areas where islam (and christianity) were less successful were notably those not reliant on maritime connections. interior sri lanaka, and mainland southeast asia.

  • @kashcit
    "Basically the Y chromosome doesn’t have enough SNP diversity to allow good calibration of divergence, while because of their high mutation rate microsatellites are not good for temporal inference." ---> Total outsider to the field here, but know some basics. Can you please explain what "calibration of divergence" means?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    if you assume a molecular clock you can calibrate divergence based on an outgroup you know. so we diverged from chimps 5 million years ago, if your variation is 20% that of chimp-human than you diverged 1 million years ago from humans. the issue with microsatellites is that they mutate fast and ‘overwrite’ (convergence) each other. with SNPs, they mutate slow, but Y chromosomes have very little SNP variation, so you don’t have enough variation to predict stuff well.

    whole genome sequence, which is coming online now for Y in the last few years, has revolutionized this…

  • @Whyvert
    @Razib Khan

    In antiquity Athens, Carthage, then in medieval Venice, Genoa. I agree with the comment above that the Med's geography was distinctive.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    athens is trivial. their empire didn’t push beyond the aegean. the other three are what i would also think. i don’t see the strength of your contrast at all. that being said, the indian ocean is not the same type of body of water as the med. southeast asia is a better analogy. and there are many states besides the ones i named (e.g., malacca, makasar come to mind).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Razib Khan

    A strong case can be made for an ancient civilization that used coastal waters of Indian Ocean, from Red See all the way to Malaysia and probably even North-east Africa. It probably existed 5-8,000 years ago and among other things invented: long distance trade with ships, metals and their usage from bronze to gold, our original symbolic and theological concepts of 'invisible' god, time measurement, calendar, abstract thought, etc... There is strong linguistic evidence for this in ancient Sumerian, Elamite, even Egyptian and Hebrew.

    The current languages that most approximate this ancient source civilization are Dravidian languages. I also think Phoenicians and their trading empire is a more western outgrowth of this original Indian Ocean basin based trading civilization (and so are probably Hebrews and their 'mono-theism', they traced themselves consciously to Elam and east based on mythical Abraham's genealogy).

    It will be hard to find conclusive genetic evidence for this proto-civilization because its male population was displaced by violence and by simple exhaustion, when new groups emerged and over-run these ancient civilizations in third millenium BC and later (Aryans, Semites,...). But our abstract thought is still very much formed by this original civilization - our words, concepts, theology, calendar, etc... And it was based around Indian Ocean. All we have to do is look deep into our preserved history, myths and languages.

  • @Whyvert
    @Razib Khan

    Right, there are some. Considering that the time frame is more than a millennium, not all that many though.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle, @Razib Khan

    which med. states are you thinking about?

    • Replies: @Whyvert
    @Razib Khan

    In antiquity Athens, Carthage, then in medieval Venice, Genoa. I agree with the comment above that the Med's geography was distinctive.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • @Whyvert
    One thing that puzzles me about the Indian Ocean and its history is that despite much maritime trade and many coastal states there were few if any maritime-trading empires. It is a contrast with the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic. Why didn't South Indian states create sea empires in East Africa? Maybe the axis of military competition was always towards the North and to the conquerors from the steppe which somehow sucked the energy from southward empire building by sea. Or maybe some other reason...

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i think you’re wrong

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srivijaya
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majapahit
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_dynasty

    . Why didn’t South Indian states create sea empires in East Africa?

    what would they get from east africa?

    • Replies: @Whyvert
    @Razib Khan

    Right, there are some. Considering that the time frame is more than a millennium, not all that many though.

    Replies: @jimmyriddle, @Razib Khan

    , @Talha
    @Razib Khan

    Hey Razib,

    To me, the immediate thing that pops into mind is that you just don't have such a vast array of islands in the Mediterranean as in the South Eastern region of Asia; rather you have mostly contiguous land masses projecting out into the water with a large shoreline (islands like Cypress, etc. excepted). Power projection must have cost far more in resources than say being able to fight your way down with a land-based army through the Sinai to capture Alexandria or the like. Unless I'm wrong, formidable navies always seem to be more difficult to maintain - this saved the Japanese from the Mongols.

    Peace.

    Replies: @Twinkie

  • In the late 2000s there was a lot of talk about how the Tasmanian devil was going to go extinct because of devil facial tumor disease. I expressed the thought that we need to be really cautious thinking that disease could drive the devils to extinction. This was not based on detailed knowledge of the...
  • @Walter Sobchak
    @Razib Khan

    Is there any precedent for a 99.99% death rate form any single disease cause within a limited time frame. I.e., not including the fact that in the long run the mortality rate is 100% and areas affected by sudden events of great violence.

    The Black Death is usually thought to have caused a mortality in 14th century Europe of about 67%.

    Native American populations declined dramatically between end of the 15th and the later dates when European type governments began to conduct counts, but there multiple epidemics, and lots of enemy action that destroyed or degraded native institutions. Further, the exact scale of the catastrophe is truly obscure. It might have been on the scale of the Black Death, but, it might have been as much as 95%. Read the discussion in Apendix I to "Conquest: Cortes, Montezuma, and the Fall of Old Mexico" by Hugh Thomas
    https://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Cortes-Montezuma-Fall-Mexico/dp/0671511041
    The historiography is head spinning.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Douglas Knight

    Is there any precedent for a 99.99% death rate form any single disease cause within a limited time frame

    not to my knowledge.

  • @ohwilleke
    The incident makes me think about what sort of evolutionary responses humans could muster in the face of some apocalyptic event like an out of control biological warfare agent of some kind.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    we could survive biologically. issue with humans is that our cultural complexity requires critical mass. we could easily persist with a 99.99% mortality rate in terms of being a biological species. depending on spatial distribution it wouldn’t even be much of a bottleneck if at all. (~1 million out of ~10 billion) but civilization would go and we’d probably be hunter-gatherers.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    but civilization would go and we’d probably be hunter-gatherers.

    That would give us peasants the chance to make a direct comparison and we could then decide if we wanted to help bring back complex societies or not.

    Replies: @Anonymous, @John Massey

    , @Walter Sobchak
    @Razib Khan

    Is there any precedent for a 99.99% death rate form any single disease cause within a limited time frame. I.e., not including the fact that in the long run the mortality rate is 100% and areas affected by sudden events of great violence.

    The Black Death is usually thought to have caused a mortality in 14th century Europe of about 67%.

    Native American populations declined dramatically between end of the 15th and the later dates when European type governments began to conduct counts, but there multiple epidemics, and lots of enemy action that destroyed or degraded native institutions. Further, the exact scale of the catastrophe is truly obscure. It might have been on the scale of the Black Death, but, it might have been as much as 95%. Read the discussion in Apendix I to "Conquest: Cortes, Montezuma, and the Fall of Old Mexico" by Hugh Thomas
    https://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Cortes-Montezuma-Fall-Mexico/dp/0671511041
    The historiography is head spinning.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Douglas Knight

  • About 2/3 of the way through The Ocean of Churn: How the Indian Ocean Shaped Human History by Sanjeev Sanyal. It's a wide-ranging book which synthesizes diverse disciplinary threads. The big over-arching thesis seems to be that movement of peoples and ideas was far less unidirectional than we often tend to think and are told....
  • @Anonymous
    Hi Razib,

    You recently linked to the Edwards's critique of the Lewontin Fallacy on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genetic_Diversity:_Lewontin%27s_Fallacy#Edwards.27_critique .

    There is a source cited there, "DNA: Promise and Peril" by McCabe & McCabe. ( https://books.google.ie/books?id=KKrsBcU_DikC&pg=PA76&dq=%22Lewontin%27s+Fallacy%22&hl=en&ei=JQIeTo-DBcXXiALGhe3-CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Lewontin%27s%20Fallacy%22&f=false )

    From that book I found this passage: "The debate rages about whether race is any more than a social or political construct..... The genetic evidence does not support the concept of distinct races within Homo Sapiens. The differences between populations are not distinct and show extensive gradients of admixture. The variation is significant within groups traditionally considered to be races. Our conclusion is that the data do not support more than one biological race, and we reject the biological concept of different races within the human species." They go on to explain that they'll be using "ethnicity" to describe, apparently, the very thing which the data do not support.


    I am curious as to what you make of this. There seems to be a burgeoning cottage industry of euphemistic, tactical (?), diffuse language of this sort. From sentence to sentence, we see strange contortions, if not outright contradictions. Differences which are "not distinct" (I thought that's what differences were!), races firmly rejected only to be embraced fully in all but name a moment later etc

    Regards,

    Apsel

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    language games is right.

  • The above talk is from Alice Dreger, author of Galileo's Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and One Scholar's Search for Justice. I don't know Dreger personally, but she seems like a brave and courageous person. In the broadest strokes there's very little where we disagree. Yes, our politics, and many of our specific beliefs, diverge, but...
  • @iffen
    @Yudi

    Razib is going undercover. He's going in so that he will be in place to help those of us on the outside. Right Razib? Right?

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @omarali50, @Anonymous, @MEH 0910

    lolz.

  • @Yudi
    @Razib Khan

    "my goal is try to get embedded in that class."

    I find this a confusing goal if you are heterodox in your thinking. The global, Western-led upper class is often the most aggressive in pushing PC orthodoxy onto the "ignorant rubes." What makes you think they'd spare you if you went out of line, even if you were influential enough to be one of them?

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @iffen

    they’re frank in their private salons. also, class identity and money can insulate you from a lot of the crap you are talking about. look at all the sexual harassment cases in academia. senior profs can get away with rape in some cases, but if you are a grad student and an accusation is made because you emailed someone inappropriately, you’re fucked. it’s about power. the rules are different if you are part of the elite.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    @Razib Khan

    I imagine Donald Sterling had some really tough months in 2014 when he for some weeks was the favorite public villain, because of some remarks in a private phone call. It would be really interesting to know in which way his life changed after that, whether there are many things he can´t do now which he did before. At least he seems still to be a billionaire.

    Replies: @Ivy

    , @syonredux
    @Razib Khan


    they’re frank in their private salons. also, class identity and money can insulate you from a lot of the crap you are talking about. look at all the sexual harassment cases in academia. senior profs can get away with rape in some cases, but if you are a grad student and an accusation is made because you emailed someone inappropriately, you’re fucked. it’s about power. the rules are different if you are part of the elite.
     
    Yeah. When I was in graduate school I made some comments in a seminar dealing with the Victorian novel. My comments (which were entirely about Tess of the d'Urbervilles, not rape in the real world) were interpreted as indicating that I condoned rape. I was confronted the next day by a phalanx of feminist grad students who demanded that I explain myself. Not wanting to earn the ire of the senior faculty members who supported these ladies, I swiftly recanted my previous statements.

    Replies: @Ivy

    , @Talha
    @Razib Khan

    Hey Razib,


    the rules are different if you are part of the elite.
     
    Yeah, but man, when that elite goes down, they tend to go down pretty hard - guillotine-time!

    Zanj rebellion for those who want a really old-school example.

    Otherwise...looking forward to the return of guilds! The tend towards the Dune universe may happen in my lifetime!

    On a more serious note, what you say about the dismantling of institutional learning is interesting. I know in Islamic scholarship, it is often the ones who are off-the-grid, so to speak, that have the highest credibility. Cases in point; the late Shaykh Ramadan Bouti (ra) of Syria who was the de-facto Mufti of the Levant without ever having held that title. Another, the great Mauritanian sage, Murabit al-Hajj (db) who teaches to this day (at around 111+ years - nobody knows his real age - he made Hajj on foot from West Africa when the Ottomans were still in charge) who is a breathing university and could potentially rival all the Maliki ulema in Qarawiyyin by himself - and lives out here:
    http://malikifiqhqa.com/uncategorized/the-desert-university-the-school-of-al-murabit-al-hajj/

    You don't need an official logo or letterhead to have your knowledge recognized - people searching for the truth in any field will know it for what it is...eventually ;)

    Peace.

    , @g2k
    @Razib Khan

    It seems like academia is a very broad church. My experience of grad school was an identity politics free environment. This was an upper middling university in the UK Midlands doing mathematics. Profs engaging in sexual impropriety was unthinkable as they generally wanted nothing to do with anyone outside of their immediate family. Profs were mainly emigree Russians, Germans, Chinese and a few English. Cohort was about 50% Chinese, a lot of Nigerian Igbos (they really really dislike Islam) and the rest made up of assorted Europeans and a few middle easterners, not many Anglos. Towards the end, everyone was made to attend unconscious bias talks though.

  • @German_reader
    @Razib Khan

    Could you elaborate on that? What kind of corporate units?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    class, race, religion, community, in various flavors.

    the class solidarity will not work the way that leftists assume. the lower orders weren’t been able to coalesce into the international proletariat, and they won’t today. but, there is going to be solidarity among the global overclass, just like the aristocracies of old. money and connections mean freedom. my goal is try to get embedded in that class.

    other people will have religious and racial solidities. though i think the religious ones will be more powerful because they have an explicit system for maintenance and perpetuation over time. in the end culture does beat genes 🙂

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Razib Khan

    Ok, thanks for the explanation. So basically it will be identity politics for the masses while a plutocratic overclass calls the shots, and only a few enlightened ones pursue true knowledge.
    Sounds depressing, but unfortunately quite likely.

    Replies: @Sean

    , @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    weren’t been able to coalesce into the international proletariat, and they won’t today

    The bitterest fruit of all time.

    , @Yudi
    @Razib Khan

    "my goal is try to get embedded in that class."

    I find this a confusing goal if you are heterodox in your thinking. The global, Western-led upper class is often the most aggressive in pushing PC orthodoxy onto the "ignorant rubes." What makes you think they'd spare you if you went out of line, even if you were influential enough to be one of them?

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @iffen

    , @ogunsiron
    @Razib Khan

    Any opinion on the outlook for ethno-religions among the elites and among the non elite humans ?

    , @vinteuil
    @Razib Khan

    "...there is going to be solidarity among the global overclass, just like the aristocracies of old. money and connections mean freedom. my goal is try to get embedded in that class."

    If you actually meant that, you wouldn't have published it, for all to see.

    No. Your goal is to tell truth and shame the devil.

  • Update: In light of further comments I may have been wrong about Hong's recent admixture! See the comments below (also, further discussion with Spencer Wells offline). I don't have total clarity on what's going on, because I'm sure my friends weren't lying...but they were also early adopters, and the methods may have changed. And, I...
  • @Jason Liu
    @Anonymous

    I'm not a geneticist, but don't all humans "overlap" with each other, especially their neighbors?

    I find it hard to believe there is one distinct marker for every ethnic group. By that logic, testing anyone would show a result mixed result of being partially related to neighboring groups. Or is there something I'm missing here?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    I find it hard to believe there is one distinct marker for every ethnic group. By that logic, testing anyone would show a result mixed result of being partially related to neighboring groups. Or is there something I’m missing here?

    you’re missing something. these methods rely on thousands of markers, which in aggregate allow one to differentiate population and individuals within populations to a high degree of precision.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genetic_Diversity:_Lewontin%27s_Fallacy#Edwards.27_critique

    an analogy might help. if you said someone had black hair, that’s not too informative. some populations don’t have black hair, but many do. how about straight black hair? ok, you’ve narrowed it, but not much. if you said someone had black hair and very light skin, you have narrowed the range of populations considerably more. so what if i told you that someone had black hair and an epicanthic fold? and, they had a small nose and high cheekbones? you can probably guess the ethnicity of this person.

    now, none of these traits are specific to one single population. for example, the bushmen have epicanthic folds and high cheekbones. but they don’t have straight hair (or very light skin). they don’t have the joint combination of traits. similarly, the joint distribution of allele frequencies is very specific to populations.

    • Replies: @Jason Liu
    @Razib Khan

    I see, thanks.

  • The above talk is from Alice Dreger, author of Galileo's Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and One Scholar's Search for Justice. I don't know Dreger personally, but she seems like a brave and courageous person. In the broadest strokes there's very little where we disagree. Yes, our politics, and many of our specific beliefs, diverge, but...
  • @sprfls
    Really good post, thanks.

    Allan Bloom thought he was describing his present -- turns out it was more of a prescient forecast. Guess he'd see today's atmosphere as the logical endpoint of already existing trends. (Btw, I love his caricaturization in Bellow's Ravelstein.)

    I think some people are underestimating how dire the situation can become. Razib's tone is rightly troubled. It's difficult to write about this without sounding a bit loony, like talking about "vibes" and such, but there are real costs that go beyond the tangible ones (career destruction, mitigated technical progress, etc.) For certain types of intelligent/curious people it just sucks spiritually to live in that sort of world.

    Otoh, secret societies sound pretty fun. ;-)

    Replies: @iffen, @Razib Khan

    For certain types of intelligent/curious people it just sucks spiritually to live in that sort of world.

    to some extent the past few centuries have been on our terms. the enlightenment is overdone and overvalorized, but it was a thing. but it’s an old faith going into decline.

    people need to accept that the future is arranged around corporate units. that naked power will dictate relations between those corporate units.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @Razib Khan

    Could you elaborate on that? What kind of corporate units?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • @omarali50
    There are twists and turns, but we do approach the truth, even if slowly and tortuously. I think you are too pessimistic. This is the great age of direct-to-home knowledge dissemination. No Kommissariat will be able to sell snake oil forever.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    it’ll be incommensurable ghettos. in fields without direct impact outside of science one can make up stuff without consequence. all that restricts us is decency, conscience, and a genuine love of the truth. what if you have none of these? even in statistical science you can row up the river for decades.

    • Replies: @omarali50
    @Razib Khan

    My thought is that many (maybe even most) people do in fact have some decency, conscience and genuine love of truth. It is easy to be trapped within a ridiculously false framework if that is the dominant mode of thought and nobody is saying otherwise (see someone like Peter Abelard, clearly a lover of truth and knowledge, blessed with a high IQ and the motivation and discipline to study and write, yet for all his originality and intelligence, what comes out is still Catholic Christian theology), but it is impossible to imagine a future where all this postcolonial crap is as overwhelmingly dominant and unchallenged as Catholicism was in 12th century Europe. Even within academia, it is by no means the only story out there. It is not society that will entirely succumb to this crap, it is small islands of nonsense within society.
    On the other hand, the damage will not be trivial. A critical mass of such memes exists and they will no doubt circulate well beyond the swamps of critical studies and postmodern nonsense generators in liberal academia. Shit happens. But shit may not prevail.
    Or at least, I hope that is the case.

  • @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    I associate freedom of thought with a liberal democracy.

    Very reluctantly I am coming to understand that in the modern world it is just too heavy of a lift for liberal democracy to provide us the way “forward.” To the extent that freedom of thought and conscience are interdependent with the political system it does seem like both are in failure mode.

    Thanks for the pep talk. :)

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    yep, i think it’s a package deal. those of us who can see the future coming need to prep ourselves to make it into the oligarchy. only there will liberty remain and retain.

  • @iffen
    @ogunsiron

    How do we know that is not what we have already?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    it already is partly. some of my geneticist friends are appalled that i speak openly about some things. some of them are admiring of my boldness. none of them will speak in public though, whatever they may say in private (except for the ones who will excoriate me now and then).

    if you had asked me in 2005 if we’d be here in 2016, i’d have been skeptical, and sad. but that’s where we are. it’s getting worse, not better 🙁 and it’s not about tenure or money. it’s about social sanction and approval. so two sad conclusions:

    1) truth can only move in hidden channels now if it conflicts with power. no one gives a shit if you appeal to truth, they know that it is not intrinsic value except in the serve of status and power. i admire heterodox academy, but part of me wonders if they’d be better served by being stealth and just creating a secret society that doesn’t put the academy on notice that some people know that reality is different from the official narratives.

    2) the post-modernists are right to a first approximation, everything is power. so “we” have to capture and crush; it’s only victory or defeat. the odds are irrelevant. i put we in quotes because it doesn’t matter who you are, the game is on, whether you think you are a player or not.

    open data and crowd-sourcing means that a whole ecosystem of knowledge can emerge that doesn’t need to be nakedly exposed and put peoples’ livelihoods and reputations at risk from the kommissars.

    some of my friends have argued this for a long time and i resisted because i’m an liberal in the old sense. but reality is reality, and the fact is that no one wants the truth, and they’ll destroy you to deny it.

    for every alice dreger there are 1,000 who support her. but they’ll stand aside while the 100 tear her to shreds, and talk sadly amongst themselves about what happened to her career….

    • Agree: MEH 0910
    • Replies: @iffen
    @Razib Khan

    I associate freedom of thought with a liberal democracy.

    Very reluctantly I am coming to understand that in the modern world it is just too heavy of a lift for liberal democracy to provide us the way “forward.” To the extent that freedom of thought and conscience are interdependent with the political system it does seem like both are in failure mode.

    Thanks for the pep talk. :)

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    , @Roger Sweeny
    @Razib Khan

    for every alice dreger there are 1,000 who support her. but they’ll stand aside while the 100 tear her to shreds...

    That sounds a lot like Taleb in his, "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dominance of the Stubborn Minority."

    http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/minority.pdf

    , @syonredux
    @Razib Khan


    it already is partly. some of my geneticist friends are appalled that i speak openly about some things. some of them are admiring of my boldness. none of them will speak in public though, whatever they may say in private
     
    Yeah. I'm in the Humanities, not the hard sciences, but I've had close colleagues say heretical things to me behind closed doors, things that they would fervently denounce if someone were to say them publicly.

    For example, one colleague admitted to me that Black American Lit was something of a joke , that there simply weren't enough great Black authors to justify its existence as a discipline.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Twinkie
    @Razib Khan


    2) the post-modernists are right to a first approximation, everything is power. so “we” have to capture and crush; it’s only victory or defeat. the odds are irrelevant. i put we in quotes because it doesn’t matter who you are, the game is on, whether you think you are a player or not.
     
    It's this realization, not just about the academy, but the major institutions of our society in general, that has made me become melancholic and withdrawn from the world in the last decade or so. I subscribe to old school Christian gentlemanliness, of fair play, and magnanimity to the defeated, at least toward my fellow Americans (I have a different view about foreign enemies, they who are not of our tribe).

    I am now of the view that our domestic conflict is a much more existential threat than any posed by our foreign rivals.

    As for the privatization of learning, we are already there. Many conservatives, traditionalists, and the religious who do not wish their children to be indoctrinated by the Establishment "progressivism" home school. Humanities and social sciences are a lost cause at most universities, and I support your call to turn public universities into technical and scientific institutes. For those who are interested in a truly conscientious liberal arts learning at the universiy level, they can turn to schools such as Thomas Aquinas College or University of Dallas. These Catholic institutions still offer the traditional liberal arts programs with an excellent grounding in Western canon, including the products of the Enlightenment. Students there actually engage in rigorous and challenging discussions and debates in classrooms without the fear of offending the all-too-easily offended. No "safe space." (In part, schools such as TAC can do this because it accepts neither government nor Church money - it's independent and does what the school believes will benefit the students regardless of politics or ideology.)
    , @candid_observer
    @Razib Khan

    The countervailing point is that the rise of the Internet enables anonymity, and this anonymity makes the exposure of truth far easier than in the past.

    I'd say that this has already proved to be true on many of the most forbidden subjects, such as the links between race and socially important traits.

    , @Maus
    @Razib Khan

    Razib is unfortunately all too correct about the social value of Truth. And he has experienced this more concretely than most of us. Pilate bellowed "What is truth?" And shortly thereafter Razib was no longer a NYT writer, a great loss to a wider audience of science enthusiasts curious about genetics.
    This power dynamic is why so many of us have to comment anonymously. Real consequences are at stake for truth speakers.

    Replies: @vinteuil

  • that was my thought. not too excited about it, but may be inevitable.

  • Year Google Scholar hits 2000 64 2005 271 2010 1670 2011 2210 2012 3200 2013 4020 2014 4380 2015 4820
  • @sflicht
    Is this a graph of cumulative hits or hits only in the year on the X-axis? It seems too smooth to be the latter. But if it's the former, it's not really a graph of the right thing.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan

    it’s because i didn’t start sampling every year until after 2010. added the data.

  • @sflicht
    Is this a graph of cumulative hits or hits only in the year on the X-axis? It seems too smooth to be the latter. But if it's the former, it's not really a graph of the right thing.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan

    latter

  • Since there was some discussion about East Asian genetic structure below...I pulled about 20 South Koreans I have in my data. Merged them Han and Japanese from the HGDP. I then ran a PCA and plotted it, and also unsupervised ADMIXTURE, and plotted it. The results are below.
  • @Hector
    From the way Eurasian continent is shaped(relatively long East to West dimension, especially when you only consider habitable zones), no matter how complicated the population history is, statistics will generally give two components, East and West. That does not mean all populations, even roughly, diverged into two kinds in a cladistically coherent manner.

    In the way it is defined currently West Eurasians are a paraphyletic group and East and West Eurasians are not coherent cladistic groups. Lazaridis himself was ambivalent about how to define "West Eurasians". He suggested that it is one possibility to consider Basal Eurasians as the true West Eurasians but decided otherwise(current form).

    Malta boy is West Eurasian not because he was clearly born as one but because of the way later generations intermingled and interbred. If some Basal Eurasian rich group survived and they were the researchers they would be strongly inclined to define themselves as West Eurasians and the rest as East Eurasians. Cladistically that makes a better sense.(not that cladistics should overrule other considerations but just saying as a matter of curiosity)

    I have no problem with researchers defining West and East Eurasians, whichever way they do as long as they don't forget how it was defined in the first place. But I have a problem with journalists and amateur bloggers like Davidski who try to add a political dimension to all this ("Yeah we have been to America too") justifying the conquest of Americas by Europeans.
    You may think I am hysterically sensitive but I have seen Davidski and Genetiker's frequent outbursts "They hate us White folks" when they think researchers don't give White people enough credit.(Genetiker's outburst is quite often and easy to see. the first thing you see when you enter his blog on the right side. Davidski cleaned up from his wild days of being a Polish nationalist but I saw one outburst not too many months ago.)

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Shaikorth

    i’m not going to engage on the bloggers issues. genitiker is a definite kook. i know davidski gets out of control sometimes too, though i’ve only seen it once (people bring this up all the time, did he delete all that stuff as there are never links?). though the fact that he has a free for all in his comments doesn’t help.

    as for the distinction btwn west and east eurasians. west is definitely paraphyletic. but, it does seem that the back migration from east eurasia, broadly conceived, beyond india has been very modest. (some to europe too) i’m pretty sure that this has to due to with lots of population replacement in east asia that occurred recently (people have been hinting at me about this in the research community for a while, but wait until fu cleans up this topic).

    Malta boy is West Eurasian not because he was clearly born as one but because of the way later generations intermingled and interbred. If some Basal Eurasian rich group survived and they were the researchers they would be strongly inclined to define themselves as West Eurasians and the rest as East Eurasians. Cladistically that makes a better sense.(not that cladistics should overrule other considerations but just saying as a matter of curiosity)

    ANE shares more drift with WHG. though it’s only ‘west eurasian’ in a technical sense. the divergence was pretty soon after the ‘out of africa’ diversification.

    i think the relatively deep divergence in some eurasian threads is because most of the ‘intervening’ ice age pops geographically may not have been leaving descendants. though there may be some lacunae in our ancient DNA to add some layers of complexity. the ancestry was ‘reticulate’ from an early stage.

  • @ohwilleke
    The admixture graph in this post seems to fit the critique of Euny Hong and Hector and others that there are almost no 100% Korean ancestry individuals in the sample, despite the fact that inbred populations tend to form distinct ancestry components and the widespread conventional wisdom that Koreans are more inbred than either the Japanese or the Chinese.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    the chinese are not a good comparison with japanese or koreans. there is some noticeable structure within chinese, including obviously relatively recently sinicized subcomponents in the 1000 genomes sample.

    i’m not sure koreans are more inbred than japanese.

    reading through the comments i’m starting to wonder if my friends were early adopters of 23andMe (they were), and were assigned using an older method whose results were frozen.

    that being said, if 23andMe’s methods can correctly assign ‘chinese’ ancestry to people (and it does), then i don’t see why it can’t for korean, as they are more homogeneous.

    ultimately, the details are in the methods. the data though is probably sufficient.

    • Replies: @Hector
    @Razib Khan

    Hong is rather typical for a South Korean.
    But I could see 3 anomalies.

    1. She is the only Korean sample whose "Chinese" is greater than "Japanese" even though by a very slight margin.
    Most South Koreans have >2 ratio in favor of "Japanese".

    2. Only one with a non-zero SE Asian even though it is only 0.1 percent. All 40 Koreans(I checked up to about 15 and then got bored) I have access to have 0 there. But this could be due to the design of the new test.

    3. Only one with non-zero Oceanian. But this again could be due to the new test.

    About 70 percent of Koreans have <1 but non-zero "European" component but Hong had none. This again could be due to the design of the new test.

    I have seen a Chinese from Northwest who had a fairly substantial amount of "European", like 5 percent. I also saw a Chinese with a "Korean" component.But most Chinese had nearly 100 percent of themselves with occasionally substantial SE Asian.

    Chinese components among Koreans increase dramatically as you move from "conservative" to "speculative". This makes sense since Chinese and Koreans share prehistoric common ancestry but have been isolated from each other for a long time but the migration from Korea to Japan happened at the edge of historic times thus longer shared segments.

    P.S. The chromosome graph does not show actual shared segments. For instance a long Chinese segment actually is made up of many smaller segments that happened to be assigned to "Chinese". Apparently they pull up every Chinese segment into one of the homologous pair and the gap between those segments is painted as "Chinese". I think this is how a full blooded Korean gets an entire chromosome assigned to Chinese or Japanese.

  • @Hector
    I was really going to abide by my promise not to post here but just one more.

    This analysis very nicely illustrates what has been known to many; a known mixed population can superficially look "pure" by the (usually bad) choice of reference populations. In this case N_Han, a well known mixed population independently confirmed by many disciplines, looks "pure".

    Japanese also harbor Jomon and Yayoi components, roughly speaking. But Jomon component appears as just Japanese because in this choice of population set it is all Japanese. Yayoi left descendants both in Korea and Japan but the migration was so massive that Japanese have more of them(>60 percent) than Koreans(as little as 20 percent, probably close to 30 percent) so they would be assigned as "Japanese" and make up nearly all of "Japanese component" among Koreans.

    Curiously this fits very well with Alexander Vovin's thesis that Southern and Central Koreans originally spoke a Japonic language(s) preserved in place names etc. which have been the source of bizarre Koguryo-Japonic hypothesis recently advocated(actually has a long history in linguistic circles) by non-linguists such as Chris Beckwith and Jared Diamond. Vovin and Unger take the opposite view and according to them Korean is the intrusive language imposed on Japonic speaking original inhabitants.

    This also reminds us of an important caveat. A mixed population will be between the two parental populations in the PCA analysis but that a population is between two does not mean that the population is a mixture of the two.

    Malta boy generally regarded as "pure ANE" by many amateur bloggers also may have a very complicated genetic history in a similar fashion. Bifurcation into West and East Eurasians is a statistical concept and the crudest approximation. It is absurd to pigeonhole every ancient sample as East or West Eurasian because the actual history is far more complicated.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @Twinkie

    Bifurcation into West and East Eurasians is a statistical concept and the crudest approximation. It is absurd to pigeonhole every ancient sample as East or West Eurasian because the actual history is far more complicated.

    this is not true. there is some gene-flow between west and east eurasian. or, more precisely, west-north eurasian and east eurasian + amerindian. but it’s not an exceedingly complex mixture. the ancient samples that are poor fits into this dichotomy come from a period close to the divergence of non-africans into separate populations.

  • Update: In light of further comments I may have been wrong about Hong's recent admixture! See the comments below (also, further discussion with Spencer Wells offline). I don't have total clarity on what's going on, because I'm sure my friends weren't lying...but they were also early adopters, and the methods may have changed. And, I...
  • @coplyfe
    That's the Native American and East Asian.
    1) What about the West African. There were only two references: Yoruba and Mandenka, which is bad enough. But you made the decision to cut one of them (the Mandenka), even though you should have known that Africa has the greatest genetic variety, so having only one reference was really going to be worse than having at least two.
    Why was the decision made to leave only *one* West African reference?

    2) back to the Native America. What do you mean that having five references were producing "false positives?" This is the first time that I've heard such a thing anywhere. I've never heard of this at 23andme, ancestryDNA, Tribecode, etc.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    1) What about the West African. There were only two references: Yoruba and Mandenka, which is bad enough. But you made the decision to cut one of them (the Mandenka), even though you should have known that Africa has the greatest genetic variety, so having only one reference was really going to be worse than having at least two.

    the mandenka have old west eurasian ancestry (0-5% interval, but it’s detectable and relatively even throughout the group). the yoruba probably do too…but the are the ‘best’ we can get.

    as for african diversity, that’s true within population, and the in the aggregate. but the between population diversity of west african & bantu speaking groups isn’t that big. e.g., the Fst btwn kenya bantu and west africans is on the same order as central vs. sw europe.

    2) back to the Native America. What do you mean that having five references were producing “false positives?” This is the first time that I’ve heard such a thing anywhere. I’ve never heard of this at 23andme, ancestryDNA, Tribecode, etc

    some of those groups (e.g., maya) seem to have really old and widely distributed european admixture. selecting the amazonian groups eliminated that problem. but they caused another problem because those are not typical amerindian groups (e.g., austro-melanesian admixture at low %). so there was a false negative problem.

    i won’t publish any future comments not on the open thread.

  • @coplyfe
    @Yudi

    Hello, Razib.

    You gave a rebuttal to why 23andme doesn't have more specificity to East Asians (all non-Europeans really) because you say basically, "they just don't want to." That's okay.

    But what about YOU and Family Tree DNA's pretty awful myOrigins?
    If I'm not mistaken, YOU were behind FTDNA's myOrigins.
    Can't help but notice that you were silent on this issue.

    The previous Population Finder had a decent list of East Asian reference populations. Multiple groups within China.
    http://www.dna-testing-adviser.com/population-finder.html
    It was probably the best test for East Asians at the time.

    The Native American panel on Population Finder was the same as it is on 23andme, Tribecode, and maybe ancestry.com's ancestryDNA (who doesn't list their reference populations, as far as I'm aware of): the Five HGDP groups.

    Also, while West African data was definitely not good (it only had two references: Yoruba and Mandenka) , things were a bit better than they would become with my Origins.....


    For some strange reason, when myOrigins was done.... you or someone at FTDNA or both you and that someone at FTDNA... decided to subtract quite a lot of the Population Finder's non-European reference populations....
    The East Asian references were reduced so badly that there's just a genetic "East Asian" result with no specificity at all.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mt5vWjT8ko

    Three of the five Native American references were taken away which skewed results for people of Native American ancestry.
    http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=34997

    "This is probably because myOrigins dropped Maya, Pima and Columbian as reference populations. They were included in Population Finder. The only reference populations for America that were kept are Karitiana and Surui. As a result it now appears that Native American % has dropped slightly and the remaining % is being picked up as Northeast Asian. Why they did this is anyone’s guess."

    http://forums.familytreedna.com/archive/index.php/t-34997.html
    "Now that they have gotten rid of Pima, Columbian and Maya as reference populations the new and decidedly not improved myOrigins"

    You took also away one of only two West African references which skewed the results people of West African descent as high percentages of "East African."

    Over the last two years, there hasn't been an explanation that one can find online for why this was done.

    Since you are acknowledging how non-Europeans do have it worse on these tests than European, maybe you could also take sometime to address why myOrigins, which you were a part of, was handled as poorly as it was.

    I've been involved in genetic genealogy companies over the past 5 years...aside from Family Tree DNA's myOrigins, not one other company has regressed on their tests. FTDNA was the only company to do this. If you couldn't add any new references, what was the purpose of subtracting them and screwing up peoples' results?

    Would you mind finally addressing this Razib, or are you going to continue to be silent on why such a poor job was done?

    It came across as not just "well we just don't have any new references for non-Europeans," but "non-Europeans can go to hell. We'll improve ethnicity just for Europeans only." Yes, it did seem like FTDNA just had a neglectful attitude for non-Europeans.

    You can't just come up with the excuse of "well, most of the customers are white European," because that's still no excuse to just cut SO MANY of the non-European references, even if it were true that no new non-Europeans were attainable, which is doubtful because 1000 Genomes does have some new African references, for example.
    http://www.1000genomes.org/faq/which-populations-are-part-your-study/

    https://dna-explained.com/2015/11/18/2015-family-tree-dna-11th-international-conference-the-best-yet/
    If you are going to finally address it, please also address why is it that late last year, there were reports that myOrigins would update its ethnicity in the first quarter of 2016.
    The first quarter means the first three months.
    Obviously, it's almost September, way past the first quarter.

    No myOrigins update, and no explanation has been given why there hasn't been.


    I'll be looking forward for an explanation. Please try not to use a cop out like, "well, Family Tree DNA isn't the only company you can do 23andme or ancestryDNA..."
    Again, I'd like to know about you at FTDNA and why myOrigins was handled so badly.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    1) you should post on the open thread.

    2) one answer is i don’t know why myOrigins v2 is late. i stopped working for them this spring due to my various other commitments. when they do release the next version, i will help in any way i can. but they’ll loop me in only on a need to know basis (yeah, it’s late, i don’t know why, the goal was to get to release it in winter).*

    3) the native american references were producing false positives. the decision was made to err on the side of false negatives. the next version is going to try and strike a balance.

    4) The East Asian references were reduced so badly that there’s just a genetic “East Asian” result with no specificity at all. this isn’t true. ? the labels are a little weird. but that wan’t my doing.

    you should chill on the conspiratorial tone. it’s annoying.

    (follow ups on open thread)

    * there are some issues relating to engineering and scalability where i wasn’t totally clued in, and i think that’s it, because the reference sets are there. also, we were trying hard to add more clusters relatively late…. (stay tuned)

  • @AG
    @Twinkie


    Oh, no, someone’s sense of race purism has been hurt:
     
    A lot of western travelers have impression of northern Chinese as very nationalistic people. Yes, they are right about that. In fact, most northerners are more nationalistic in general, which include both northern Asians (Mongolian, Manchurian, Northern Han, also Korean) and northern Europeans( like German, Russian, Norwegian, ect). Not sure how this happens. I bet it is more to do with survive in harsh cold climate without any one else mercy. Also historically, it was always for northerners conquering southerners in both Asia and European histories.

    http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/DC92/production/_89466465_identity_poll_intermarriage_chart_624.png

    This data is directly contradictory to some people's wishful thinking (delusion) about northwest European as least tribal people.

    If you wonder how crazy Korean people are proud of themselves over other people, well, that is how northerners in general are, not just Korean. Do you wonder why North Korea is so confrontational toward USA? All Asian northerners (Mongolian, Manchurian, Northern Han, also Korean) are proud of ourselves no matter how miserable life is.

    Bottom-line, northern people (both Asian and European) are just proud of themselves in their DNA which do not depend on others approval. Bad commentaries from others are meaningless to them. They are highly competitive people. Northern people are fighters who never accept loss. Lost one battle is not reason to surrender your soul. You always seek the chance to win next time. Olympic games reflect such competitive attitude also for people of north origin.

    Southern Chinese on the other hand seems always displaying pessimistic attitude toward themselves. Southeast Asians are even worse. Pureblood of southeast Asian seems to be a shame for them so that every body claimed some kind of Chinese ancestry. That is really pathetic.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX4fY5deK08

    This most patriotic guy had nerve to perform this patriotic/anti-American piece of music right there in front of US president in White House in USA. He is full of national pride.

    Lang Lang 郎朗 was born in Northern China (Shenyang, Liaoning, China). His father Lang Guoren is a descendant of the Manchu Niohuru family, which brought forth a long line of Qing Empresses

    Yes he is a fellow northerner, a Manchurian, proud of his nation. Not coincidence. You see more this type of people in north.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @PD Shaw, @Hector, @Twinkie, @Jason Liu

    i refute you thus: the vietnamese.

  • About thirteen years ago I expressed the opinion that an understanding of population structure will become a matter of intellectual curiosity once we have a better understanding of the genetic basis of characteristics. A friend, who was a statistical geneticist, told me that this was unlikely. We were unlikely to capture the ability to predict...
  • @Douglas Knight
    The concern is not about rare variants in Europeans, but the opposite - rare variants in other groups are unlikely to be in Europeans, thus unlikely to be understood by studying Europeans, and thus the prediction based on Europeans will miss variance important in other groups. Right?

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    yep. this is basically the next stage in the ascertainment bias problems that were well understood in the 2000s.

  • Update: In light of further comments I may have been wrong about Hong's recent admixture! See the comments below (also, further discussion with Spencer Wells offline). I don't have total clarity on what's going on, because I'm sure my friends weren't lying...but they were also early adopters, and the methods may have changed. And, I...
  • @Shaikorth


    Ultimately, Hong can think whatever she wants to about her 23andMe results. But the data are out there. It’s pretty obvious that unless there was a sample mix-up, she has recent Chinese and Japanese ancestry (she could put the raw results in the public domain and have people cross-check with other methods, like PCA, I’m pretty sure they would confirm the 23andMe results).
     

    Would a PCA work very well for her? Koreans tend to be between Chinese and Japanese in PCA's featuring them all, and if she has 1/8 of her ancestry from both it could cancel out.


    Regarding European focus it's understandable that commercial interests take priority but DNAland has several clusters for both Europe and South&Central Asia (not counting clusters covering Altai and eastwards). They probably aren't too difficult or expensive to add.

    Replies: @Razib Khan


    Would a PCA work very well for her? Koreans tend to be between Chinese and Japanese in PCA’s featuring them all, and if she has 1/8 of her ancestry from both it could cancel out.

    not just PC 1 and and PC 2. there is surely one that separates north vs. south chinese.

    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    @Razib Khan

    In my experience the Chinese cline is often incorporated into PC1 or PC2 already, even when there's something extreme like Ainu included.

    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v60/n10/fig_tab/jhg201579f1.html#figure-title

    But perhaps one of the less significant dimensions can repeat the cline without making Koreans intermediate between China and Japan.

  • @Sgt
    23andMe uses chromosome painting? I thought they used Germline IBD, the data from which may be turned into a "chromosome painting." 23andMe might be in the back-end DNA-data business, but their upfront approach is tripartite: "Ancestry," Health-Reports, and find your cousins. Finding your cousins can not be accomplished successfully with 79 {or 100} sample individuals. Who is my Japanese cousin on Chromosome 13? I can't email him/her and have yet to replicate 7 cM of sharing with anyone in my own database!

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    23andMe uses chromosome painting? I thought they used Germline IBD, the data from which may be turned into a “chromosome painting.”

    they don’t use germline.

    http://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/20121027_ancestry_painting_methods_poster.pdf

    • Replies: @Sgt
    @Razib Khan

    In 2014 they moved to GERMLINE & HaploScore for at least part of their process.
    http://blog.23andme.com/23andme-research/23andme-scientists-improve-methods-for-finding-relatives/

    I don't know that the old ancestry pipeline is being used. Don't mean to be difficult... just saying...

  • @Michael Watts
    There might be undersampled populations from Korea, but I’d bet against it. Koreans are relatively homogeneous

    You don't think the Paekchong are likely to be distinct? Judging by the wikipedia article, they were a pretty distinct caste as recently as the early 20th century.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    i doubt it. i told you, i’ve seen ftDNA korea data. a fair amount. no structure.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @Razib Khan

    Some South Koreans that live along Yellow Sea Coast have a rare blood Abo group allele called cis-AB. This allele is present among chinese islanders and some japanese people from Shikoku Island. These koreans from West Jeolla related to ancient Silla Kingdom are not quite different to another Koreans but some genotypes are exactly the same as japanese and chinese people.

  • No matter the Yelp reviews, if it doesn't have dry pot or whole boiled fish on the menu, not worth it. Also, should feature something where the peppercorn is salient.
  • @Brett
    There's a place here in Salt Lake City that has Szechuan food and the "two menus" thing going on, but the Szechuan menu isn't online for me to look at. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that they've got both of those, though.

    The staff's reaction if I go in there and order off the Szechuan menu (I'm a white guy) is fun. They get pretty worried that I'll eat something too hot.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

    when i went to Z & Y in SF the server straight up would not let my two friends & i order some of the stuff (they where white).

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    @Razib Khan

    Mr. Kahn - did they seem less insistent about ordering the pepper warning items with you compared with your white friends? It would be interesting if East Asians (I'm assuming) have a different perception of the relative ability to handle heat based upon the race of the diner. Perhaps the only way to get good anecdata wold be if you returned without them.

  • @utu
    "whole boiled fish" - I think you meant steamed fish.

    Replies: @Razib Khan

  • In 2011 I was having dinner with an old friend who was an engineer at Intel. He also has a Ph.D. from MIT. Smart guy. But when I mentioned casually offhand that we were all a few percent Neanderthal (outside of Africa), he was surprised. I was a bit shocked, as I explained that this...
  • the rate of crime (sexual crime) can both be higher than the baseline, and, it could be exaggerated.

    i think the key for me is that sexual harassment is well known to be a major problem in MENA and s. asia (people travel there, so they have experience of this) , so i see no reason why one’s prior should be that they will behave that differently in new circumstances.

    • Agree: backup, syonredux
  • @Tim
    @backup

    You are missing the point.

    Women are less likely to report it, the police are less likely to follow up, and a conviction is less likely if the description was of a man matching 95% of random men in the country. This is especially true if they already knew each other before the incident.

    But if it was a distinct looking dark man with a unique foreign sounding name, then it will be case closed before the trial. And if the news constantly reports that these types of men are just more likely to attack people, then forget about it. It might as well be 1920 in the southern US.

    Statistics from convictions are tainted in so many ways.

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @backup

    this is why murder is the “best” crime statistic. the bias issues go down as murders are salient enough to be noticed.

    • Replies: @Tim
    @Razib Khan

    I absolutely agree that it is the best for statistics. Although it still has some bias in seemingly 'random' cases without witnesses.

    And I am sure that there have not been statistically more murders than average committed by migrants as opposed to citizens.

    And if there have been, then it was among unwitnessed murders.

  • @Tim
    @Razib Khan

    I understand what you are saying, but I think it is impossible to disentangle it all from mere statistics from different countries.

    At least in Germany, I have not seen any proof that there is a real correlation between ethnicity and crime, other than the same correlations that also apply to 'native' Germans.

    Most refugees to Europe are very poor young single men, because they are most easily able to escape their homeland, and also willing to take the risk. This is also the same category that is associated with these types of opportunistic crimes in most societies.

    Add to that the innocent color bias of the locals, and throw on some politics. I am a man of science, and there is zero science involved in these conclusions.

    I won't say anything else about it on this thread (although I suspect that Razib kind of enjoys when a little heated controversy leads to a few hundred comments on a post).

    Replies: @Razib Khan, @backup

    Most refugees to Europe are very poor young single men, because they are most easily able to escape their homeland, and also willing to take the risk. This is also the same category that is associated with these types of opportunistic crimes in most societies.

    i would quibble with this. all the data i’ve seen suggests that people who migrate are NOT usually in the bottom 1/3 of the population, and often from the top 1/2, because u often need resources to actually make the trip. the syrian stream of migrants is more representative…but the ppl from afghanistan etc. are not representative.

    • Replies: @Tim
    @Razib Khan

    I agree. They were not poor before they migrated. But after, they typically have no job for quite a long period of time, unless they already have good connections already.

    Not that is is representative, but I actually randomly (only 1 free chair left at the kabob shop) had lunch today with 7 teenagers from Eritrea who each came alone to Germany within the last 2 years. They each spoke at least 4 languages, including German and English and attend the closest Realschule.

    The ones I spoke to the most said that their families were well enough off that they had money to make the trip to Europe. Yet none of them had been able to find a room to rent since they have been here, and definitely no opportunities for work. They lived in refugee housing still. Although their families may have some money, I would consider them to be very poor by German standards.

    Replies: @Sean