Congratulations Anatoly, you might have posted the first post on this site that everyone will agree with. Insane parents in the West take their toddlers’ words seriously if the unfortunate boy mutters something like “I like boys more,” without having any idea about sexuality. There are plenty of pre-pubescent kids who are being treated as if their sex is the opposite of the way they are born by their parents. Many of them will probably end up with mental illness or suicide. Sad.

If you were my daughter or son, then yes.

You could have had the same results (millions of refugees and ethnic cleansing) if zionists had “done a Libya” in Syria. But they have another objective : permanent wars and instability.

Libyan civil war still continues, also there is no goal of establishing a new state in Libya to secure Israel, in Syria and Iraq there is. There isn’t a point in ethnically cleansing Arabs to establish another Arab state. It is very strange that some people will claim to be against Israel and then support Kurds just because Zionist media tells that Kurds are some democratic, likable people who are striving to be future Europeans while in reality, it is just that Israel finds Kurds useful for its security.

I agree with Jeff. The point is not the IQ, does it matter if your country is crumbling, unsafe, and its people are dying of drugs that its average IQ is supposed to be 10 or however many points higher? You are getting enraged at goat farmers in Afghanistan while your house is burning is his point.

It isn’t as simple as you think it is. Stoning of adulterers applied is only for married adulterers, and then, it requires 4 witnesses. Which would mean that the said adulterers were basically doing it openly or they would have to confess. Hand cutting is reserved for thieves who steal to get rich, think of an accountant or banker who would steal from his clients, not for some kid who stole a bike because he is stupid and thought it would be fun. Islam can be reformed, it already was when different nations adopted it and then again when Saudis subjugated Arabia. However, it won’t be reformed. For the simple reason that the world has far too many stupid people with instant access to information that they cannot even comprehend, and the quality is Islamic scholars is absolutely rock bottom. I mean, I don’t believe in religions but whenever I hear these religious scholars, not just of Islam, but others as well, cannot help but wonder whether they even read their own holy books. Bid’ah is not a sin in Islam, it is a sin if it tries to change the core of religion.

Shaykh Said Nursi (ra). Brilliant and wise man, more Muslims would do well to be familiar with at least some of his writings and thoughts

I heard that he was just an ignorant pretender who convinced other ignorants to follow him and had crazy ideas like claiming radios were functioning thanks to the angels, and that he was put in a mental hospital for talking down on Sultan Abdulhamid like a madman by the order of the sultan himself.

Russia’s intervention in Syria was authorized by the King of Israel.

Why?

I don’t know. My guess is that Russia is doing what she has been told to do.

Longer the war lasts more they can ethnically cleanse parts of Syria. If no one was involved either the opposition would win or more likely, Assad would end the civil war. Currently, large parts of Syria ethnically cleansed of Arabs and Turcomans. Europe and Turkey are foisted with millions of refugees. It is nation building for the sake of Israel, the cause of Iraq war, Syrian war, creation of ISIS to further terrorize Arabs, Yezidis, and Turcomans and make sure ethnic cleansing works very effectively… It is all about Israel. Currently, only Iran is standing in the way, with Turkey being a distant second obstruction. Without Russia’s involvement, the war would’ve ended fast. If the war ended fast, they wouldn’t be able to do the effective ethnic cleansing they managed to do.

So, why do these fantasies of well poisoning Jew, kidnapping Jew, blood eating Jew stories could not be found in the Ottoman Empire then? They had the largest Jewish city in the world for centuries, yet you cannot find any such claims in their literature. Before taking these claims seriously, perhaps you should also consider that some people were also burnt or tortured by Christians because they were thought to be witches. For your information, blood is not kosher anyway.

This is a very good piece, but one bit resulted in me trying to groan yawn, laugh and snort at the same time – the bit about how the tribe’s “scholars” of mediæval anti-RSP legends are aimed at

denigrating and indicting medieval Christianity as irrational and prejudiced

Is it “denigrating” a thing to discuss its irrationality and prejudice? (Leave aside for a sec that religious RSPs who do the discussions believe in shit that is ex æquo irrational and prejudiced – put that down to ‘stopped clocks’, or interdum stultus opportuna loquitur… fielder’s choice)

Because let’s be super-clear on this: the core tenets of Christianity are ridiculous. Quite apart from the silly superhero fanfic in the New Nonsense, the entire schtick also requires the core of the Old Nonsense to be true.

So not just blokes in sandals who prattle on in deliberate riddles (‘parables’ – the hallmark of a charlatan) while wandering around a sandy shithole living off the gullible (and killing trees because why not?)…

The older Nonsense – the sky maniac who makes light and the Earth before he does the stars, fashions the first human… the talking serpent, the massive amount of incest that must’ve happened after the Fall of Man… that is all required if Jeebus’ grift (and Paul’s fanfic) is to be believed.

And not for nothin’ ( on the prejudice front): folks like me were prone to getting tortured and set on fire by those cunts. And I’m not a ghey, or a kid who teases bald men – I just see the nonsense in the silly book for what it is… for about 1200 years that was enough to get a fellow killed.

So frankly, anything that hastens the consignment of the Jeebus torture-porn cult to the same irrelevance as the Æsir, is a good thing.

(For those playing along at home: RSP = Red Sea Pedestrian… a reference to the 100% fictional captivity in Egypt, and Exodus therefrom (having stolen everything not tied down) under the leadership of a person with the same historical validity as Batman.

For your first point, I only ridicule comments when they throw insults or try to get easy points by appealing to the crowd. Like the example you gave, the commenter had no answers for any points I made, instead, he listed a bunch of nations that he claimed were destroyed by Turks, which had nothing to do with the subject. What am I supposed to do then? I either ignore or make fun. Back to the topic, yes, size matters. Then again, geography & climate are already not human factors. Neither Napoleon nor Wehrmacht were crushed by the Russians. They had better generals and better soldiers, they lost because of logistics and even then at a huge cost to Russia. If there was something crushing it was the winter & logistics. Just look at their casualties vs. the casualties of their enemies.

I would take these numbers with a grain of salt. I don’t think there are actual measurements of country IQs, I do use these numbers occasionally but just to have fun. The key difference is education & familiarity levels when it comes to IQ scores. I did run these tests on people, some of whom I know to be smart ended up with low scores whereas others I’d consider not as smart ended with higher scores than the first group. The difference was sometimes really large, the differentiator was always education & familiarity. In your example, if there are biological factors, then Uzbeks must be smarter than Europeans as they are mostly Asiatic with some white mix. Similarly, a bunch of African countries is shown with sub 70 IQs, which really doesn’t make sense as it would mean they are all mentally retarded. I am fairly positive at this point, IQ scores below and around average could be improved 15-20 points with just training (provided individual is not mentally challenged). Test and exam familiarity is likely another cause for higher scores of NE Asians.

Now that’s rich. If Russians have such martial prowess, then why is their country is the one that always gets invaded? Mongols, Crimeans, Poles, Germans, French… Just about everyone around them invaded Russian mainlands, including Moscow. Anyone who is not a Russian nationalist would agree that both Napoleon’s army and Wehrmacht were far superior to Russian armies and that they lost due to overstretching. Weren’t Russians running away from Napoleon and burning their own lands to not leave the French supplies? Similarly, weren’t they considering moving government further East when Wehrmacht coming? No one said Russians lost the war in the end, but its mostly thanks to other factors, the primary quality of Russian soldiers has always been their expendability, not superior fighting skills. When Russian losses outnumber invaders far away from their homelands on Russian turf, it is more than a stretch to claim Russians had crushed the invaders.

The US public does not support a war. They already used too much credibility for Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now Syria. Not to mention NK, China, and Venezuela issues. If people asked for it, they would be more than happy to start a war tomorrow. Besides, the US did not win wars since WW2, but neither did its enemies. The US may fail to reach its political goals -assuming government officials are not pure evil nihilists who just want to create havoc- but regardless Iraq, Libya, Vietnam etc. all turned into war zones and lost millions of their people. You could make similar claims before each of the previous wars, the net result is those wars were fought. It is better to convince people that wars do not benefit them anyway. Saying they can’t win wars is daring them, some would support wars just to prove they can because of such arguments.

First, don’t skip your medications. You are being paranoid as usual. I never claimed that you cannot do any of those things, including insulting Muslims. Obviously, you can, all I said is that just because you can it doesn’t mean it is a smart or sensible thing to do, and that you shouldn’t be surprised when people react aggressively. As for flag burning, again it is an act of stupid, a completely useless and pointless act & I am against burning books, religious symbols & flags. I don’t think they should fall under the 1st amendment. They offer nothing good and benefit no one. Again, Founding Fathers never calculated that there would be billions of morons in the future and assumption of common sense prevails in most laws written in the pre-modern era (not just in the US, but in most places, people could never imagine how the world would be like).

Thanks, and that is my point, it is just that some fools here don’t get it. You can, of course, do all sorts of stupid stuff I listed above but you should be ready for a backlash. They don’t seem to understand free speech does not give one the right to just insult anyone in any way he wishes and just get away with it.

You know a lot about laws Wally, where did you get your JD from? Are you a constitutional scholar perchance?

You are writing far too long for an anonymous and I didn’t read what you posted. If you want a response, get a username and repost it. My guess is you are one of those butthurt genocide claimers who got a good spanking recently. In any case, you will have to get a username before posting long-winded responses.

Lol, that would silence the absolute majority of the world. Honestly, most people have no business talking these things anyway & I do believe reducing their ability to broadcast their thoughts would be beneficial to everyone including their selves.

It’s difficult to imagine such a sentence from a more ironic source.

I stand by what I say. People who came up with free speech never imagined a world of 8 billion, where every idiot, even someone like you, would have an opportunity to broadcast their thoughts. It was for protecting the rights of people like themselves, not 100 IQ morons.

Patronize a religion that has jihadi world conquest ideology whose precepts imply an reduction in western political freedoms, such as Islam and Judaism, and you can expect a “bloody nose”.

You are slow, aren’t you? Where did I suggest a reduction in political freedoms? Where did I say you can expect bloody nose only if you attack Islam or Judaism? Say stupid things in the wrong place and you can expect a bloody nose anytime, anywhere. Again, free speech is not for protecting stupids from other stupids, it is for protecting intelligent people from mobs.

Besides, if you are going to write long, whining responses at least get a username so that the next time you comment people can skip before reading.

Bad is relative and subjective. I am against provoking people in general, including Christians. It doesn’t mean denying these religions should be banned, it just means don’t go provoke people just for sake of provoking, and if you do then don’t whine “muh free speech” when you get a reaction. As much as I don’t believe Christianity I wouldn’t go to a church and swear at Jesus & Mary. As much as I think it is nonsense to consider cows holy, I wouldn’t kick a cow in Delhi. These things are just common sense. You don’t need to be Voltaire to figure doing such things wouldn’t be about free speech.

If you don’t have basic common sense, there is not much point trying to explain my point. Free speech does not mean you can say anything you want to anyone you want without any consequences. You can think some woman looks like a whore, you don’t walk to her husband and say that his wife must be a whore and then say you have free speech. You may think Jesus is imaginary, you don’t walk into some Orthodox mass and proclaim your opinion. Whether the reaction you will get is acceptable or unacceptable is not the issue here, the point is you don’t know the reaction you will get, there is nothing that can be gained, and free speech is mainly granted for individuals’ right to express their beliefs; not to just insult beliefs of others. There are plenty of people and books that deny religions including Islam without any issues. When idiots try to do the same though, they manage to turn it into a war. I do think if thinking about topics other than their daily lives could be banned for people with sub 120 IQ, the world would be a lot better than it is.

Russia, USA, and Israel work together in Syria. Russia cares only about its economic and military interests. Israel wants to block Iran’s influence and establish a Kurdish state to further secure itself by creating a pariah Kurdish state that would be enemy of everyone around them. Iran’s policy is consistent and logical, they want to keep Syria intact and support Assad, they calculate stronger their position in Syria is more cards they hold against Israel (and thus the US). Turkey is run by morons who have no idea what they are doing, on the one hand, they want Syria intact on the other hand they are against Assad. Turkey on paper, is allied with the US, downed a Russian jet, and bought S400 systems from Russians.

I am not talking about the US. The US just does whatever Israel commands. Therefore, figuring out what Israel wants is enough.

WTH is the deal with Koreans, weave and hair story? Keep hearing about Koreans in Black cosmetic topics.

Stop this nonsense. Chinese try their best to emigrate West, if they have an opportunity & not already wealthy in China (even the wealthy often get residence in other countries using their money). I have known people who exchanged professorship or engineering professions for lowly service jobs in the US or Canada.

I don’t know a lot about either. Not many outside East Asia have special interest in these topics, and even when you do have interest, it is impossible to read these languages without years of study. So, people choose the easy and lazy way of blaming the already blamed, following the logic of smoke & fire. What are Japanese arguments regarding these two issues? Are there reliable statistics? When are brief histories of these two claims?

China and Iran do not have millions of Subsaharans.

My arguments are laid clearly, I also presented support for each one of them. It is not like anything I say is secret anyway, you can open any expert books on these topics that you talk about and find everything I say there as well. It is not a straw man if you bring something into your argument, and it is not whataboutism to give other examples, I am giving a simple example to show that Europe (Christianity) itself would not guarantee the existence of Armenians or Greeks as Christians regularly destroyed Christians of different denominations, and Armenians were already being oppressed by Greeks at the time Turks came. You claimed that Christians were genocided by the Ottomans and it was a policy, there is simply zero evidence for a targeted genocide of Christians or any other religions. Ottomans were a lot like Romans with regards to religion and ethnicities, in fact, they considered themselves as the continuation of Rome.

He is an exemplar of a nation which has been the nemesis of Armenians who have seen their homeland destroyed and occupied by Turkish invaders from Central Asia.

You are way off. Usually, conquering people don’t give much chance to the conquered. History is full of people who disappeared after being conquered. Turks let Armenians live in Anatolia for 800 years, and you couldn’t show a single rebellion by Armenians or massacre by Turks during that period.

They might not wear fez (according to Ataturk’s ridiculous diktat) but they are the same barbarians who did their best to destroy the settled and advanced civilizations of Iranians, Arabs, Armenians, the Greeks.

It is a common practice of revolutionaries to change customs. Peter the Great banned long beards, Mao changed the entire outfit and style of the Chinese. Average people like you wouldn’t understand why these were necessary measures. As for your other claims, it is just a bunch of ridiculous claims that have no basis in reality. However, I appreciate that you are giving bjs to everyone from Arabs to Greeks hoping that maybe you’d garner support (don’t forget the Chinese). World needs less stress, your contribution is valuable.

I already explained my case, it is a myth that there was a huge Christian genocide policy in the Ottoman Empire. One look at the constituents of the Ottomans and Europe by the 19th century shows that if there was a religious genocide that would be by Europeans. I mean Europe didn’t even tolerate Christians of other denominations until very late in its history, Irish was genocided by the English for their faith. Not to mention that an empire that is just based on subjugation and killing cannot last 600 years. Relative to their historical counterparts, the Ottomans were far more tolerant of different faiths and minorities, and they didn’t care about “Turkishness,” as some fools here keep claiming. You are taking little what you know about European history and applying it to a different culture, and concluding that there must have been genocides for a great Turkish cause.

As for imperials, yes, from an objective point of view they took what they could and they cannot be blamed for taking advantage of the weakness of others. However, you are the one who keeps trying to bring in religion and moral arguments. And more often than not, they are either outright false or misrepresentations. As I said, whether Turks were Muslim or not, Armenians and Greeks would have lost Anatolia. They didn’t lose it because Turks were Muslim, they lost it because they were weak. When they were strong, they also took it from other people. Their pleas of Christianity vs. Islam is just empty whining, especially given religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

This idiotic Jihad subject never ends. Thanks to the growing number of stupids, and media parrots bringing in a new term, now it will be repeated for the next 50 years. As long as you keep up with this idiotic jihad argument, you will be a fool easily used by war hawk politicians who will justify every war in ME “because of jihadists.” It is one thing to be against immigration, or disagree with Islam, and another thing to argue that there is a grand Muslim conspiracy against West. For your information, even the immigration wouldn’t be near as bad if it wasn’t for Neocons destroying corrupt but functioning governments in several Muslim majority countries. There is also no great Jewish-Muslim alliance. I can find an example of some Americans who are Russophile, or Sinophile as well, would it mean there is a grand Russian or Chinese conspiracy?

As for free speech, there is stupid free speech and there is free speech. There is plenty of people and books that criticize Islam and its prophet without any issues. Then there are those who just want to provoke a backlash for who knows what reason and cry when they get a bloody nose. I wouldn’t expect to enter a biker bar and make fun of them and leave unscathed, or go to a Russian Orthodox Church and tell nasty jokes about Mary and Jesus and leave without getting my ass kicked. Clearly, drawing Mohammed as a pedo or terrorist is akin to these examples, a very stupid thing to do with zero actual benefits. I mean, free speech is not being able to say any stupid shit you want to say to anyone. It is purpose is not so that you can tell anything you want to anyone you want. If you have a good suspicion that something you say will trigger a backlash, and it does not need to be said (it offers nothing, has no real value) then just don’t say it. People who invented it, made it protected so that smart people could be protected from stupid people. It is not invented for stupid people to start fights with other stupid people.

I don’t care much about religious perspective. However, no, they weren’t given eternal right to do as they pleased by their own laws. Religion or not, Turks would eventually invade Anatolia. Contrary to the claims here, Turks’ arrival to Anatolia had little to do with religion and everything with perceived weakness when scouts returned with their reports. There is no right that comes from the heavens. People took what they could, and left what they couldn’t.

Typical genocide whiner. When counter views aren’t around, just claim anything you wish. When counter-arguments exist, twist their words as if they said them.

He says there was not peaceful Armenian representation to the Sublime Porte for equality with the Turks. The facts contradict him. From the 1830s to the late 1870s

1830-1870 is long before any genocide you claim. That said since you said there were pleas for equality, post the reference. Still, equality was granted long before your “genocide.” There were Armenian ministers and parliament members. But, go ahead post a link so that I can see what these pleas were about.

from killer taxation to such ridiculous rules as the one which banned infidels (Armenians) from riding a horse because his head would then be higher than that of a Turk

The Ottomans were a medieval economy trying to compete with industrial West. Killer taxation affected everyone, not just Armenians. You cannot show single evidence that Armenians were subject to taxes that other citizens were not supposed to pay. Jizyah was for not serving in the army and was abandoned in the 19th century long before Armenian rebellions. As for more symbolic rules, like the horse riding or not building Churches higher than that of Mosques, no one really cared about this stuff in practice. You cannot show a single person who got in trouble for breaking these rules.

In between these harassments were illegal land confiscation, plunder, quotidian insults, abduction, Turkification, a permanent state of insecurity and victimhood to the vagaries of corrupt governors.

Now, good job, after writing couple truths you skillfully insert your bs. I don’t know how many times do I need to tell this until it gets through your thick skulls. the Ottomans didn’t care about ethnicity all the way until collapse when they had to face the reality that even Arabs were fighting Turks for their cause. Go ahead, show me evidence with regards to your claims prior to Armenian rebels started terrorism (the 1880s).

Armenians didn’t serve in the Ottoman army until WWI because they were banned from military service: since Armenians were infidel, they were not trusted.

Another false claim. They could serve if they wished to. They would rather pay tax and avoid death. It takes a long stretch to make this appear a bad deal for Christians.

What Lo is bizarrely claiming is that Armenians, residing in their homeland of Armenia, were a minority before the Turkish invaders showed up from Central Asia

I didn’t say Armenia. I said East Anatolia. Which was Eastern Roman land by the time Turks showed up. You are omitting East Anatolia part. By the time Turks came, Armenians were a minority in East Anatolia (and didn’t even reside in some cities further West they later claimed to be Armenian).

Lo claims Armenians were wealthy and Ottoman life was good for them.

I didn’t claim they were wealthy. I said they were better off. It is a relative term in case you didn’t know. They were better off than Turks. Otherwise, the Ottoman Empire was impoverished and its economy was backward compared to Europe. Particularly East Anatolia was poorer.

If Armenians were comfortable and well treated, why did they spend forty plus years pleading to the Sultan, to courtiers, etc. for fair treatment

40 years is your claim. Although, it is not surprising that everyone would want a piece of a breaking empire. Armenians were well treated and were referred as “Loyal Nation”, I am not saying it, it is in the reports of the French ambassador General Sebastiani.

Throughout the 19th century, an unknown but large number of Armenians left their insecure and impoverished towns and settled in Istanbul hoping to find jobs in the big city.

So did millions of British, French, Turks, and German. Have you heard of industrialization? You think what you say proves something or makes Armenians sound like victims?

They also hoped discrimination would not be as acute because of the presence of foreign embassies in the city.

Show the evidence for said discrimination. Was there a law that made life harder for Armenians? Were they barred from doing business, entering certain places or constructing things? Do not apply 21st century standards.

They didn’t reflect the status of Armenians. Istanbul was the richest city in the empire and yet almost all the porters (“hamals”) of the city were Armenian.

So? And Yoghurt sellers were Bulgarians, gardeners Albanians, and dock workers Turks… Once again you’re proving nothing. It is like saying Italians had it bad because they were making most pizza in NYC despite it being the richest city in the US.

Finally, while the genocide of Armenians is frequently noted as the period between the 1890s and the early ’20s, there was a slow but persistent genocide of Armenians throughout the five-hundred years Turks ruled over Armenians.

Okay, so basically it was the longest & thus the most unsuccessful genocide in the history. Is that what you’re saying? Armenians never had a large population or land. Their population was about 1.5 million before WW1. Doesn’t sound like they were genocided. There is no genocide in history that took 500 years.

That interminable genocide involved the kidnapping of Armenian children, abduction of Armenian girls/women, rapes, forced turkification, violent attacks, mini-massacres, looting…it decimated the Armenian population and turned Armenians into drones.

I don’t get it. Why kidnap Armenian children? Didn’t Turks have enough hungry kids? Again, you are rambling then showing your resentment for the fact that there are no signs of any Armenian rebellion or massacres all the way until nationalism rose in 19th century’s second half (not to forget foreign missionary work).

Lo mocks Armenians who are “living comfortably in the U.S., Canada, etc.” but act as an obstruction to the erasing of Turkey’s horrendous crime

No, quite the contrary I was pointing to the fact that if they care so much about Armenia they could offer help. Nothing they do helps Armenia, it just makes them feel good and slows their assimilation. It is self-serving and doesn’t offer anything.

Diaspora Armenians are winning the fight because it’s easy to be persuasive when you have the truth on your side.

No. They are getting more recognition thanks to the collapsed Israel-Turkey relations. Your persuasion appears to work only when government and certain lobbies find you useful against Turkey. If the truth was on your side you wouldn’t have to come up with so many lies and false claims. You could show some mass graves, a bunch of documents ordering genocide, many films, and photos. You can’t. Because there aren’t any.

You do realize in most cases issues of Christian population was just an excuse to involve and weaken the Ottoman internal affairs right? It is no different than suddenly caring about Uighurs today. I don’t think West has a lot of credibility with regards to caring for humanitarian causes. If you know some history you’d known that most of the time it is just a convenient excuse to interfere in other countries internal matters. Which is why I’d recommend Uighurs to be careful and not get radicalized, as much as I’d recommend Chinese to avoid heavy-handed policies. If the Ottomans were genocidal through their history as some persist on this site with no evidence, there wouldn’t have been millions of Christians within their borders after 500 years (800+ years if you include the precursors to the Ottomans). It took French or Britain less than a century to impose their languages in their colonies, even shorter for Spanish to convert/exile/massacre ALL Muslims and Jews out of Spain. Had Ottomans acted the same as Europe, there wouldn’t be Christian populations that could have problems, to begin with. Now, forgetting your initial claim, you will follow with straw man “they allowed Christians because Christians paid extra tax,” which is irrelevant (as it was to compensate for not serving in the military, they had the option to not pay tax and serve in the army, they overwhelmingly chose to pay tax and not go to war).

Yeah haha, I am just messing with him. Some traditional medicine works to some extent, most of it is useless. In the case of Chinese medicine though, some of the most useless beliefs persist. They think just about everything is a cure for some health issues.

Yes, that is correct.

Leftists cannot help it. Even when their side wins, they end up devouring each other. They are people who are forever stuck in teenage rebellion phase.

He is correct, you are not with regards to attitude towards the Ottomans. As I said, Union and Progress already wanted to ally with Britain. They were rejected. Knowing Ally goals, they sided with Germany hoping if Axis won the war, the Ottoman Empire would be better positioned. Long before WW1, the British and French had imperial plans for Ottoman ME. Do you actually think they’d let the Ottomans control almost all the oil supply of the world?

You have anger issues. I prescribe you crushed fermented lemur tails and rhino testicles infused in soy sauce for a month. By the good luck of celestial Chinese medicine, you will be healed in no time.

Just repaint Washington as a black rapper, and all will be well.

A comparative essay of the two could be a very interesting read, don’t know if it is already written? As far as I know, China hasn’t been any more stable than the West in the past, and still today their government officials are no less corrupt which is why Xi is leading an anti-corruption campaign. Maybe corruption is embedded in governance.

I like this one.

These are beautiful murals. We are talking about a high school, not Louvre. I wish my high school had such murals, once again, great stuff wasted on idiots. I am hoping the cost is because they will either remove the artwork or put something protective so that cover paint can be safely removed after the idiot generation graduates. Otherwise, don’t understand how it would cost almost $1 million to paint some walls.

Send them the photos, I am sure they’d happily hang it.

Chinese do get a lot of undeserved bad press. But it is true that Dr. Roberts defends China more than Mao himself. Which actually makes someone like me look anti-Chinese even though I’d normally give support in some topics (not the tariffs, Uighurs, Tibetans and especially Taiwan though lol).

Lol, it is more complex than that. You forgot the oil. Britain, France, and Russia had already agreed to divide the Ottoman Empire. Which is why they rejected an alliance with the Ottomans before they are allied with Germans. That is real history, it is more complex than the third rate blogs tell you. No one goes to war to get 72 virgins and paradise. You forgot that the same people were also allied with Germans, who, to my knowledge weren’t exactly Muslims.

I don’t want to further comment on an irrelevant topic, but since it started will continue a little.

The standard Turk denialist lie and disinformation.

First of all, it isn’t a valid argument to call someone denialist. Guilty may deny a crime, both so will the innocent. There are no disinformations in the part you quoted. It is not a lie or disinformation that Ottoman Christians, heartened by Balkans and imperial powers wanted to create their own states in Anatolia. In fact, the strong reaction they faced in Anatolia proper is partially because of Muslim massacres in Caucasia and Balkans, many Turks (and Circassians) from these areas had already seen the same scenario when they barely saved their lives by escaping to Anatolia. In the weakest time of a collapsing empire, Armenians & Greeks tried to kill their Turkish compatriots. How else could Turks respond?

Muslim Turks are invaders into Asia Minor from Central and East Asia, and the Balkans.
They have been massacring indigenous Christians for centuries – Armenians, Assyrian, Pontic Greeks

Actually, Armenians are the last people to complain about something like this. They were being treated very well, surely better than how previous conquerors Eastern Roman Empire treated them.

In 1894-1895 Sultan Hamid massacred 300,000 Armenian civilians: was there WW1 then also?
Were there invaders, quote, ‘encouraging’ anyone?

I don’t know details of such massacres, 300,000 is a suspiciously high number. It is true, however, that Kurds were organized to resist against Armenian revolutionaries and it seems that they acted autonomously (in hope of loot most likely). They didn’t just attack Armenians though, they also killed Alawite Turks. As for encouraging part, both Armenian revolutionary parties were established before Hamidian horseman. A bid for an independent Armenia was made in 1878 as well. Moreover, before even 19th century imperial powers were provoking Christian minorities of the Ottoman Empire. French & Russia particularly played a huge role in Armenian uprisings. By early 19th century, Armenians had zero interest in a rebellion. Research General Sebastiani’s report to Napoleon. He says Turks trust Armenians tremendously and Armenians are very content. Fun fact: Hamid’s mother’s last name is Dadian. Which might mean he is half Armenian by blood.

Nobody is, quote, ‘whining’: publicizing the Genocides committed by Turks and keeping at it, is one of the the ways we are pursuing our goal – justice.

Why is your justice cutting only one way though? In multiple cities in Eastern Anatolia, Armenians had all but wiped urban populations. Because revolutionaries knew that they were a minority. Sure, many Armenians had nothing to do with revolts or rebellions, they didn’t deserve to be forced out of Anatolia but don’t tell me that Armenians as a group did nothing wrong.

We have won battles against Turks and we have lost. You lose a battle, you lose a battle: that’s how it goes.

Well, at least you accept that there were battles. True, Armenians won and lost. Ultimately they lost. Same for Turks in Bulgaria or Greece. They lost, and got massacred and had to escape.

But planning, organizing, and carrying out a Genocide of civilian populations is not losing in war: its a war crime, with consequences.

There were no plans to destroy Armenian population. The Ottomans were not a modern European imperial power. In many ways, they were still a medieval country. Relocating populations en masse had been a solution that they used in the past, rebelling Turks were also relocated to Bulgaria and elsewhere in Balkans. They could not provide and protect people sufficiently. Kurdish gangs did kill many Armenians, and diseases also killed many. But, for their failure to protect Armenians, Ottoman governor of Adana was executed along with other officials. This was long before the war was lost. A government intending to genocide a people do not execute its own officials for their failure to protect the said population. Not to forget Union and Progress had Armenian ministers, Armenians in Western regions (away from Russian front) were exempt from relocations, and the migration path was right next to River Tigris including the final destination. If they were most competent people the empire would not collapse, the same people also lost 90,000 of their own troops without any wars in Eastern front due to spectacularly poor planning.

Bottom line is, you cannot show any historical Armenian hatred among Turks. From about ~1000 to mid-1800s Armenians had no issues and there are no signs of friction. If Armenians didn’t believe in Russian and French promises and didn’t revolt they would most likely remain in Anatolia as they’d been in the previous 800 years. Armenian revolutionaries brought their own people calamity, and their grandsons are now blaming Turks for it. What would they have done if they’d won the war in a land they were a minority anyway?

That’s fine, Wikipedia is a good source for some things, not so good for others. For politicized topics, it is not, maybe for purposes other than picking up resources to learn from.

I don’t really remember where I read most things I know. I just have a good memory, select good resources, but I don’t pay too much attention to titles as I don’t really have a reason to.

First of all, Wikipedia is not a good resource as it favors those who are most politically active and those who know English. Though even in Wikipedia just clicking a couple links deeper will show inconsistencies in these politically charged articles. If you had clicked the population exchange link on the page you sent, you’d see after the war 1.22 million Greeks were sent to Greece, in 1914 the Greek population was 1.8 million. When you consider Greeks who escaped before the exchange, Greeks who remained in Istanbul (excluded from the exchange) and Greeks who died during WW1 (battles & gang fights) it is not difficult to see there wasn’t a “genocide.” There was basically a civil war along with the WW1 for sure, but it wasn’t Turkish government targeting Christians. Encouraged by invaders and hoping to establish their states, Christians started massacring their neighbors, and Turks defended themselves. Greeks & Armenians whine because they are sore losers. Yet you never hear Turks whining about pogroms in Balkans and Greece, do you?

It is not a wrong analogy. As for your points, Greeks also were invaders at some point. First inhabitants and first states of Anatolia were definitely not Greek. Regardless, my point stands, Ottoman Greeks were the citizens of the Ottoman Empire. They made a choice and sided with an invading army of another state. Invaders lost, Turks won, Greece and Turkey had their Muslim and Christian populations exchanged. I don’t see how else they could be treated given the history.

You have to consider that at that point the Ottomans had lost the war and Istanbul was basically following the orders of the British invaders. However, during the forced relocation of Armenians, some local officials did involve in atrocities against Armenians and they were punished (just another proof that there wasn’t a state policy of killing Armenians). This was before the war ended. My point is that tribunals did not find evidence of genocide as a state policy & prisoners were released by the invading side.

This is normal and desired. The government should not be trusted any more than any other organizations. If the trust is too high and government officials basically have lifelong jobs, then they will be more corrupted inevitably. The difference is that when there are different political opinions that are exact opposites of each other, people will be more cautious of things they hear from organizations. In China, such a thing does not exist. It is a monoculture, with a > 90% single ethnicity, ruled by a single party whose decisions are law. Add in the Asian neoteny and you have the perfect mix for a people who believe in their own BS. Moreover, even if you are educated, mature and smart, and distrust CCP, you would be cautious to be open with your ideas as your opposition could mean confinement or worse. Just look at Ai Wei Wei or Liu Xiaobo.

You forgot to mention (or don’t know) that the Ottoman army was practically disbanded after WW1. Also, Greece had been fighting as a proxy for the British. British were “watching” because the British public did not support further fighting, but Lloyd George had everything he could to support the Greeks (it is dubious that they themselves could afford further fighting as they’d already been exhausted by that time, in fact Turks located their forces near straits and close to Istanbul after they defeated Greeks and were ready for more fighting, British sued for peace). It is true that Soviets sent the Turks arms, however, throughout the war Greeks were better-supplied & equipped. I mean, it is not a great success to invade a country without an army and then lose against basically a poorly equipped militia led by professional officers. You should read a bit about it, in some cases, Turkish units would be ordered to take the rifle of an enemy soldier as soon as they managed to kill one as they were really short on supplies and equipment.

Greeks were mostly not massacred in the aftermath. Numbers of populations exchanged are there. There have been revenge cases locally, but the majority of Anatolian Greeks either escaped with the Greek army or were exchanged after the peace treaty. It is expected, given that they celebrated an invading army. Just ask yourself, if China invaded California and the Chinese Americans there welcomed an invading army that killed whites & other Americans, and then were defeated and left. Would you feel sorry for the same Chinese Americans if they were kicked out afterward? The same scenario, just one is real the other is hypothetical.

Had they been prosecuted at the time, the problem of the ‘Armenian Genocide’ would have been solved.

This shit again? Don’t you even read the stuff you post? It says Armenian massacres, that is the definition of the adversaries of Ottomans after a war the Ottomans lost, and Malta Tribunals already prosecuted high ranking Ottoman officials they couldn’t find any evidence for a planned genocide.

Iraq is and was a Shia majority country, right next to Iran. Saddam was a Sunni and a ruthless ruler. Only morons wouldn’t be able to predict that Iran would grow its influence over Iraq after a destructive war. Turns out those morons were (are?) running the ME policy of the US government.

The cultural revolution destroyed their culture. My wife’s parents had been through reeducation and humiliation. Seems money and status is the measure of value.

That’s the key to understand China. Everyone assumes that it is 3000 years of culture that we are dealing with, while in reality the Chinese might be a nation younger than the US as their cultural heritage has been largely destroyed. Hence, they are acting like a bunch of kids. Mao indeed managed to floor the society to the point everyone became starving equals, without religion, culture or morality. As it is not possible to create a moral code and culture in a short time, money became the differentiator and virtue. This fact, and also the inferiority complex is also related to the fact that when China allowed Western investment, a lot of people who have been farmers/urban poor (bottom of society, even without a cultural revolution) became filthy rich, especially when development created a real estate bubble.

The Chinese do have some kind of inferiority complex, perhaps as a reaction to that ‘revolution’ and also perhaps from all those single children all grown up, and articles and commentaries abound comparing themselves to us and the US.

Previous factors, add in the ultra-nationalistic education and the fact that it creates cognitive dissonance when they realize they are poorer than the West, you have a perfect breeding ground for idiots with inferiority complex who think they can buy respect and friendship through money.

I don’t think anybody really likes China except for their market, actual and/or potential.

If you are not even liked by Chinese outside mainland China, you have no one the blame but yourself. Really, not blaming the Chinese as well. Average Chinese is living in a bubble created by the CCP. They have no idea what is actually going on in the world. Once they are out, they gradually realize that they’ve been lied to all their lives and often end up hating CCP for it.

Lol, not gonna work buddy. Denk is a Chinese kid who is locked out of his favorite online game because CCP banned it. Since he cannot criticize CCP without risking the lives of his extended family, he is venting off about evil foreigners here. What do you want me to do, beat a kid?

I don’t think you are dishonest, I think you are a genuine idiot, so we are cool I am not angry.

Yet another post full of false claims.

1. Armenians could not have asked for equality for 40 years, because the Ottoman system was modernized long before WW1 and adopted a Western-style citizenship model. Thus Armenians were equal citizens. Even before then, they were not third class citizens with no rights. Their security was guaranteed as they were still Ottomans. So-called no equal rights are things such as the following: Christian temples won’t be higher than Muslims, Christians won’t carry weapons and so on. Ottomans didn’t care about nationality, hence there aren’t single Turkish speaking former Ottoman land other than Turkey itself. Armenians were better educated and better off than Turks. Bet you don’t know why. Because Turks did not have the option to pay taxes to avoid the draft. Non-Muslims had the option to pay tax or serve, they overwhelmingly chose to pay taxes.

2. No, Armenians were already minority because when Turks came it had long been Eastern Roman land, and Eastern Anatolia had been a battle zone for Persians, Arabs, and Romans for centuries. Armenian population was never large, to begin with.

3. There weren’t centuries of persecution. Why would you affectionately call people you persecute? The reality is, Armenians mostly didn’t want to support rebels and they were fine with their lives. Turks also didn’t mind Armenians until rebels started their terrorism, which included killing Armenian clergy and other prominent Armenians.

4. Some Armenians don’t whine, those who do are mostly diaspora Armenians. They are comfortable living in the US, France or Canada. They wouldn’t move to East Anatolia or Armenia. Armenia is a poor country that is suffering because the diaspora is constantly causing troubles. So, Armenians who remained in Armenia are suffering because of essentially foreign whiners who happened to have Armenian last names. This also works for Russia because Armenia is forced to align with Russia as Turkey is forced to isolate Armenia. If Davidians or Boyajians of this world actually cared about Armenians they’d try to find out a way reconcile two people. But they don’t care, it is all about satisfying their ego with a victim narrative and keeping a distinct identity through a common story.

There is a reason why they are “old” Ottoman stomping grounds. He and his fellows, on the other hand, are not people capable of being Ottomans. His kind would not even be allowed in Istanbul without sponsorship, but does he know that? Of course not. He doesn’t even seem to be aware of the fact that he owes his position to the republic Ataturk established, not to Ottomans. Ignorant of any science and history other than the one they imagine, they think they can just involve in internal matters of Arabs and would be welcomed for that. They should get a clue, you’d think 5 million refugees would be enough of a clue, but I guess they are bigger idiots than they appear.

Good news is Erdogan will visit China in a few days:

I’d like to see what his delegation has to say on the subject.

He will not say anything. Turkish foreign policy is no less mentally ill than the US foreign policy. Rather than focusing on culturally close people, Turkey focuses and involves the issues of Arabs. Just like the US involvement, Turkish involvement in Semitic matters brings nothing to their country other than terrorist attacks and millions of refugees. Erdogan is not capable enough to understand the problems he caused for Turkey.

Sure he did, his biography proves it. After all, he fought in Balkans, Libya, Syria, Gallipoli and Anatolia. Even lost an eye and almost died. I guess he must be the greatest Jewish general ever to fight for a Muslim nation. Check out some of his photos; he looks super Jewish with a hook nose, dark curly hair and brown eyes. So many clowns lol.

Lol, no one is throwing tantrums. The thing is posts of Wumaos are so repetitive and boring that I don’t even read them. Once you read one of them, it counts as you read all of them. Yeah yeah, without even reading I know stuff you will write, US imperialists (that you gladly accept money from) interfering in other countries, China being wonderful (China can do no wrong after all), China is a victim, Americans being fat and stupid, Chinese built HSR, Uighurs are terrorist, Dalai Lama is a traitor and so on. You really need not repeat yourself. We understand that according to you everything China does is right, and everything everyone else does is wrong. It appears your collective mental age is no more than 7, which makes you a child. I have all the good intentions, but you cannot be helped. Which is tragic, but patience has its own limits. Look at yourself, your country is being robbed by CCP elites, and here you are defending the same elites who steal from all of you.

At this point, I firmly believe that the only right way for the US at this point is to isolate China all the way back to the 60s level and let CCP collapse. Unless they learn to respect the freedoms and rights of their minorities and start being a normal country, which we all know won’t happen since they are all so brainwashed to believe in their victim narratives.

Actually, Ottoman archives are fully open to any researcher. Armenians refuse to open their archives. Odd isn’t it? Turkey offered to establish a common research group consisting of Turkish and Armenian researchers to investigate claims some years back. Armenians rejected, on the basis that genocide claim should first be accepted before the investigation commission is established. You’d think they’d jump on the offer, no?

Nothing ISIS does helps Turks or Muslims. Everything it does helps others. You can find out who others are if you are a bit smarter. Finally, Talaat was a gypsy, Djemal and Ataturk are both Turks. Ataturk has nothing to do with Armenians as he was busy in Gallipoli in 1915 as a low ranking officer. You know nothing.

The same bs again? Genocide thesis defenders were destroyed in another article just a few days ago. Look it is as simple as this: Armenians looked Balkan people, Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs and so on having successfully revolted and established their independent states. You revolted against the Ottomans, intended to do pogroms following the modal laid out by Balkan rebels, but you forgot to calculate that all those Balkan people were the majority in the land they claimed. You were not. Armenians were vastly outnumbered by Turks and Kurds in every single city they claimed. What would you have done if you managed to establish a great Armenia? Right. We all know. You lost, your people are exiled, some of your people died. Such that is the nature of war. Accept it and move on, there are enough whiners in this world. Have you ever seen Turks whine about Balkans or elsewhere? No. Which means you can also stop whining and blaming everyone else for your failed rebellion.

I like Japanese but Asians don’t seem to know what moderation is. This is why they should be kept away from any dangerous ideas it turns out. They take them too seriously. Look at the Chinese, they appear to have already forgotten how it was before they received investment and know-how from the rest of the world. Thanks to their ultra-nationalist propaganda, already they are expecting the whole world to bow down to them, and they are not even on S. Korea level as far as GDPPPP goes. All indications I see points that Chinese imperialism would be far worse than the US imperialism. At least Americans don’t think that they are smarter than everyone else and that they are their own original, pure race people. Not to mention that the Chinese also believe money rules everything and nothing else matters.

Well, from the comments that I have seen in China-related articles, I conclude Trump is being too nice, and so was I, giving Chinese too much credit in their ability to think like adults. The US should tighten the noose and put tariffs on the remaining $300 billion of goods. Chinese are not negotiable and only understand force, not only that but they think we believe their bs that wouldn’t fool a kid. Either they will accept to follow up with their promises, and won’t expect to be treated as an exception or they will return back to their isolated days. SEA is more than eager to accept the investment and industries China will lose.

And what are you? A Zionist tool Evangelical Christian? People other than Jews or Arabs have no obligation to care about their little disputes, got that? No wars for Israel. Do your Zionist propaganda elsewhere.

Look, all of this is being a side. If Israel can maintain its status by itself, then fine. If not, then it is also fine. Why are you coming up with nonsensical arguments about Arabs (and thus implicitly forcing to side with Jews) while you could simply say it is their problem? I don’t remember owing anything to Israel. Sick of seeing wars for the sake of Semites. Some countries defend Israel, others defend Arabs, why should anyone involve in the ethnic disputes of Semites? They are the same people following different religions. They should handle their own issues.

There are plenty of articles about US interference or crimes, on this site and other English sites. People comment about them online (how about Chinese web, can you publish articles claiming Taiwan is its own state or challenge other CCP claims for example?). This is a China-related topic, of course, people will comment about China. Chinese paranoia and victim psyche are really ridiculous. You are hypersensitive, grow some skin. Or just go to some playground and don’t come back until you’re an adult.

Here, there you go. The exact reason why I said “adult opinion” for Jason’s comments in the first place. Talk any topic and Chinese defense is “we built a long bridge, 800 million out of poverty, high-speed train…” But what does it have to do with the subject matter? It is like, when you listen to one Chinese you can assume you also listened to the other 1.35 billion. Are you all coming out from the same manufacturer? Always the same arguments for anything regardless of the topic.

If I were China, I would use my State Banks and fund the removal of Islamic adherents. They can find a nice life in Turkey.

If you were China, you would claim you are a developing country and that everyone else must fund your removal of Uighurs because China built a watchtower somewhere in the middle of the desert 2000 years ago, invented gunpowder and the compass, and you will not buy soy from the USA if Western imperialist insists you must behave just like every other nation with regards to treating minorities and you built the longest bridge in the world and therefore you are right.

Hey fucktard, if you have to be a minority of some country the best place on earth is to be a minority in China. Believe me.

How is your mother?

I was going to refer WTO, Half-Jap was faster than me. You can address his comment if you wish.

Genghis Khan was described as being blonde haired, and green-eyed. The photos you posted prove nothing. Working under the sun, especially on dry climates for a long time can make even whites appear black. It is just the skin color though.

1. They think the Uighur threat is huge and overreacted, which is retarded.
2. They think the world won’t find out/care, which is retarded.
3. They think it China’s image doesn’t matter because we’re big and have money, which is retarded.
4. They think China’s version of ‘truth’ will win out against negative perceptions, which is super retarded.

Refreshingly adult opinions from a Chinese. Usually, by this point, an average Chinese would start screaming about Opium Wars and foreign invaders instead of sensibly talking about the subject topic.

Chinese state media is obviously not transparent either, and their “nothing to see here!” stance is such crappy propaganda it wouldn’t fool a child.

Don’t say that, it fools Mr. Godfree Roberts every time.

Okinawans are very nice people, a distinct culture too. Though I don’t think they have issues with Japan. I am afraid if Japan gave independence to Okinawa, China would soon claim it too.

1. We live together in peace. That means less oppression from the government/Han majority, but also no SJW-style agitation from the Uighurs.

This is the only realistic solution. However, CCP is paranoid. So they can’t just let people be. I see no assimilation without continuing oppressive policies, and while small in China, Uighur population is still larger than populations of Sweden or Norway. So where are they supposed to leave for? Anyway, it is kinda ridiculous to see a giant country worry about issues like this and overreact like the way they do.

No one converts temples in modern times. Previously everyone did. Yes, there are plenty of mosques turned into churches in both Spain and Eastern Europe.

Also a potential solution; work with neighboring members of the above Shanghai cooperative in order to engage them to take and settle Uyghurs in exchange for financial or development incentives.

I don’t understand any of these solutions. Why should Uighurs leave their ancestral lands because the Chinese are too insecure about a tiny minority? And China has no credibility when it comes to deals, just think WTO deal they are bending backward to not follow up with the terms THEY signed for. What makes you think they’d honor a deal they make with economically dependent SCO countries, even if Uighurs somehow accepted such deal?

Also, just out of curiosity, do you support such a deal for Palestinians as well? Unlike China, Israel is surrounded by enemies and is tiny. Their population is also tiny. They have far more legit concerns about Palestine than Chinese can have about Uighurs. Should Arab countries take in Palestinians, given economic support provided?