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    As dawn was breaking on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, military forces of Germany, Finland and Romania suddenly struck against the Soviet Union along a broad front stretching hundreds of miles from the Arctic Circle in the far north to the Black Sea in the south. Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, and Croatia quickly joined the campaign...
  • @j2
    @John V.

    That war declaration was 3. September 1939. Two days after the invasion. Their ultimatum may not have given two days, but Hitler had two days to see that Stalin does not attack at the same time with Germany.

    But I accept your answer. I must find a stronger argument to support the claim that Hitler's main goal for the war was outrooting Jews in order to later move them to a new homeland in Palestine. There are other arguments for this claim, but an attack to Poland can be explained in a different way, like that Hitler was stupid and could not see into what war he takes Germany.

    But what do you say about taking Japan as an ally? In the Protocols of the Elders of Zion there are mentioned only two countries controlled by the Elders (Jacob Schiff and others) so much that they can raise their arms against any country opposing the Elders. Japanese believed in the existence of the Elders when they got a loan for a war against Russia in 1904. The other country mentioned was the USA, and in 1917 the USA was brought to the WWI by Jewish bankers in exchange for a promise of a homeland in Palestine. That was true and Hitler knew it. So, he allied with Japan and the USA forced Japan to a war, Japan attacked the USA, both parties were off the main theatre for some time. Japan could not attack Soviets, and Sorge leaked the date of Barbarossa. Does this look to you as someone was arranging something?

    Replies: @John V., @John V.

    The hysterization of the American people regarding Germany would have been made easier by the lingering effects of the demonization of the German people from during the WWI. Such demonization is common during the war. You can’t really expect your soldiers to shoot the enemy if you tell them “The enemy are nice people, just like us.”.

  • @j2
    @John V.

    That war declaration was 3. September 1939. Two days after the invasion. Their ultimatum may not have given two days, but Hitler had two days to see that Stalin does not attack at the same time with Germany.

    But I accept your answer. I must find a stronger argument to support the claim that Hitler's main goal for the war was outrooting Jews in order to later move them to a new homeland in Palestine. There are other arguments for this claim, but an attack to Poland can be explained in a different way, like that Hitler was stupid and could not see into what war he takes Germany.

    But what do you say about taking Japan as an ally? In the Protocols of the Elders of Zion there are mentioned only two countries controlled by the Elders (Jacob Schiff and others) so much that they can raise their arms against any country opposing the Elders. Japanese believed in the existence of the Elders when they got a loan for a war against Russia in 1904. The other country mentioned was the USA, and in 1917 the USA was brought to the WWI by Jewish bankers in exchange for a promise of a homeland in Palestine. That was true and Hitler knew it. So, he allied with Japan and the USA forced Japan to a war, Japan attacked the USA, both parties were off the main theatre for some time. Japan could not attack Soviets, and Sorge leaked the date of Barbarossa. Does this look to you as someone was arranging something?

    Replies: @John V., @John V.

    Someone was arranging something, but who?

    The book “Witness” describes how influential the Soviet agents had become in the US media and in the US government. On the other hand FDR seems to have been a socialist (from the same book). I believe that it is completely possible that some NKVD disinformation operation in the US media made the US people hysterical regarding Germany (like the “Roosevelt Conspired to Start World War II in Europe” describes), and in the German media they made the German people hysterical regarding the Jews.

    That wouldn’t have even been difficult, as the local journalists were usually pro-workers and pro-union, just like the Soviets pretended to be. Many of the local journalists were Jews with connections to Soviet Union and they were prone to falling for the Soviet propaganda. The Soviet Union would have appeared like a natural ally and someone to be trusted to those journalists.

    (We see today similar operations in the US where Russians are trying to make whites and blacks hate each other, only to create chaos).

    Again, this scenario would agree with Victor Suvorov’s theory, that Stalin wanted war in the Western Europe, and that he was preparing to “liberate” the whole Europe.

  • @j2
    @john v.

    "Why Hitler attacked Poland? Maybe he wanted to recover the lost German territories, or maybe Stalin convinced him somehow. "

    Hitler attacked 1. September 1939. France and England put an ultimatum on Germany expiring 3.September 1939. Stalin had not attacked. If Hitler wanted to avoid the war, even if he was tricked by Stalin, he could announce withdrawal of German troops from Poland before the ultimatum expired. He did not do so, therefore he decided to start a world war. The attack to Poland must have been planned before the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement, thus Hitler planned an attack and could not know if Stalin would join him. These things show that Hitler needed to attack Poland even if it meant a world war where Germany would very probably be in the same situation as in the first world war.

    When Hitler took over Poland he started collecting Jews to camps. These Jews were finally not exterminated and nobody anymore claims that there was any extermination plan in 1939. The plan was also not to keep unreliable people in camps. Jews were to be moved and after the war they were to be moved to a new homeland. What can be this homeland? Some still claim it was Madagascar, but if so then why did Hitler make the Haavara agreement? Haavara was to take German Jews with their capital to build the initial infrastructure to new Israel in Palestine, not Madagascar or any other place. No other country, including the USA which was so controlled by bankers that it was taken to WWI in exchange of a promise of a homeland in Palestine, agreed to take Jews. So, they were moved by Hitler to wait for transfer to the new homeland.

    I find impossible to explain these issues by Hitler's desire to get some land from Poland, or his worry of the situation of Germans in Poland. Jews are mentioned 445 times in Mein Kampf, Poles only 4 times (Finns and Swedes not at all). Jews were the central issue to him and he wanted to transform them out of Europe to a new homeland, not to exterminate all of them.

    Replies: @John V.

    Our history is fake history. Unfortunately we will know the real history only when someone with no ideology will do some cold headed research. I do not foresee that happening in the near future.

    Germany had lost territories, and my understanding is that those territories were still inhabited by Germans. Losing territories is extremely traumatic for any country, so in a way I understand Germany wanting them back. Even US got their territories in the Aleutian Islands back from Japan, I did not hear them saying “You can take them, don’t worry”.

    BTW, losing Poland, Finland, Bessarabia, the Baltic countries, should not have been traumatic for Russia, Russia had not business occupying those countries/territories in the first place.

    • Replies: @L.K
    @John V.


    Germany had lost territories, and my understanding is that those territories were still inhabited by Germans.
     
    That's correct.

    In fact, the seeds for WW2 were sown by the victors of WW1 and the choices they made at the end of that conflict.

    As US historian T. Fleming writes, in his book 'The Illusion of Victory":

    "(US president) Wilson proclaimed self-determination as a great principle—and then gave away chunks of German-speaking Europe to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Italy and France, sowing the seeds of the next war.
    Knowing that Austria favored a union with Germany after Vienna lost its empire, Wilson wrote into the Treaty of Versailles an article barring the union, no matter how the Austrians voted.[...]"
     
    In regards to Poland, the fact of the matter is that the Polish state created after WW1 had totally inappropriate and unsustainable borders, so much so that it was involved in territorial conflict with all is neighbors( Soviets, Germans, Lithuanians and Czechs ).

    Take a look at what some prominent figures from the winning side in WW1 had to say about those things:

    Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, during the Paris negotiations:
    “I tell you once more, we would never have thought of giving to Poland a province that had not been Polish for the last 900 years…
    The proposal of the Polish Commission that we should place 2,100,000 Germans under the control of a people which is of a different religion and which has never proved its capacity for stable self-government throughout its history, must, in my judgment, lead sooner or later to a new war in the East of Europe...” 11)

    “France is not so much concerned with what is important to Poland, rather the French position is determined solely by the aim of weakening Germany.”12)

    “To surround Germany with small states, many of which are composed of peoples that have never governed themselves and that comprise large numbers of Germans who are demanding reunion with their homeland, such plans would be, it seems to me, a breeding ground for the most terrible reason for a future war.” 13)
    “I was as sincere an advocate of Polish independence as any member of the Commission, but I was convinced that to add to Poland populations which would be an alien and hostile element inside its boundaries would be a source of permanent weakness and danger and not of strength to this resurrected State.
    I knew that a time would come when Germany would respond to the cry of its exiled people and restore them to the Fatherland by force of arms.
    For that reason I renewed my pressure in the conference to reject the recommendations which incorporated in Poland towns and territories which were overwhelmingly German by language, race and inclination...” 14)

     

    Woodrow Wilson on 7 April 1919:

    “France’s only real interest in Poland was to weaken Germany by giving the Poles areas to which they had no claim.” 15)
     
    U.S. Secretary of State, Robert Lansing, remarked on 8 May 1919:

    “Do examine the treaty and you will find that whole populations, against their will, were delivered into the power of those who hated them, while their economic resources were snatched away and handed over to others. The result of such directives has to be hatred and bitterness, if not despair. It may take years until these oppressed nations are able to shake off the yoke, but as sure as night follows day, the time will come when they will try to break free. We have a peace-treaty, but it will not bring lasting peace, as it was founded on the quicksand of selfishness.” 16)
     

    Replies: @L.K

    , @L.K
    @John V.

    After the Versailles Treaty, German West Prussia was granted to Poland and the new Polish Corridor physically separated East Prussia from the rest of Germany. This was something Germany never accepted, except Weimar Germany was weak. This was the issue that the Hitler regime attempted to settle with Poland through negotiations.

    Influential US Professor of diplomatic history, C. Tansill, wrote:


    ...In dealing with Danzig, they granted it to Poland because of economic considerations. They conveniently overlooked the fact that, from the viewpoint of population, Danzig was 97 per cent German. ...
    To the Germans this large measure of Polish control over the city of Danzig was profoundly irritating, and at times the actions of the Polish authorities in connection with foreign relations and the establishment of export duties seemed unnecessarily provocative.
    From the viewpoint of economics, Polish control over Danzig had the most serious implications. By altering the customs tariff Poland could seriously affect the trade of the port, and, through control of the railroads of the free city, the Polish government could extend important favors to the competing port of Gdingen.26 ...

    ... In 1938 and 1939 Hitler tried in vain to secure from the Polish government the right to construct a railroad and motor road across the Corridor. Relying upon British support, the Polish Foreign Office, in the spring of 1939, rejected any thought of granting these concessions. This action so deeply angered Hitler that he began to sound out the Soviet government with reference to a treaty that would mean the fourth partition of Poland. Polish diplomats had not learned the simple lesson that concessions may prevent a catastrophe.
     
  • @j2
    @john v.

    But France and England gave Hitler two days to withdraw. Why did Hitler not withdraw when he saw that Stalin did not attack, that is, assuming that Hitler did not want a world war but just a part of Poland? By not withdrawing he decided for a world war, must have understood that such a war would come, must have understood that Stalin is not reliable and that very possibly it would be a repetition of the situation in the first world war. Still he decided not to withdraw.

    Replies: @Wally, @John V.

    Maybe Hitler wasn’t that smart. Maybe he did not understand that Stalin was just using him. Maybe he was to proud to do it. It is hard for us to know exactly. It seems that in the beginning Hitler trusted Stalin, maybe he thought that Stalin will rush to save him.

    But the speech of Neville Chamberlain that I am reading says nothing about 2 days, it says less than 12 hours to be ready for withdrawal, whatever that means.

    “This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final note stating that unless we heard from them by 11 o’clock, that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us.
    I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany. ”

    • Replies: @j2
    @John V.

    That war declaration was 3. September 1939. Two days after the invasion. Their ultimatum may not have given two days, but Hitler had two days to see that Stalin does not attack at the same time with Germany.

    But I accept your answer. I must find a stronger argument to support the claim that Hitler's main goal for the war was outrooting Jews in order to later move them to a new homeland in Palestine. There are other arguments for this claim, but an attack to Poland can be explained in a different way, like that Hitler was stupid and could not see into what war he takes Germany.

    But what do you say about taking Japan as an ally? In the Protocols of the Elders of Zion there are mentioned only two countries controlled by the Elders (Jacob Schiff and others) so much that they can raise their arms against any country opposing the Elders. Japanese believed in the existence of the Elders when they got a loan for a war against Russia in 1904. The other country mentioned was the USA, and in 1917 the USA was brought to the WWI by Jewish bankers in exchange for a promise of a homeland in Palestine. That was true and Hitler knew it. So, he allied with Japan and the USA forced Japan to a war, Japan attacked the USA, both parties were off the main theatre for some time. Japan could not attack Soviets, and Sorge leaked the date of Barbarossa. Does this look to you as someone was arranging something?

    Replies: @John V., @John V.

  • @j2
    @john v.

    "Hitler and Stalin were supposed to attack Poland at the same time. If that had happened, France and the Great Britain would have not declared war to Germany, and there would have been no World War 2."

    That is an interesting theory. I know they were supposed to attack at the same time and Germans thought they would, but is there an reason to think that Germany would not have ended up with a war against France and England?

    Hitler could not attack France in any other way than through Belgium, which would very probably bring in England even if England had not declared war the same time with France. Thus, if France would be at war with Germany, so would England.

    Germany attacked Poland 1. September 1939, two weeks after signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, France and England declared was 3. September and the SU attacked 17. September. But before the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement France and England thought that Germany and the SU were sworn enemies and for that reason must have considered Soviets on their side, probably also negotiated with them. The relations between Poland and Germany deteriorated for a longer time. It seems to me that France and England intended to declare war on Germany in case it invades Poland already before the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement. Thus, the claim would be that signing of this agreement would have scared France and England from following the policy they already had decided on. i rather doubt it. What I think would have happened is that when the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement was signed, France and England immediately contacted Stalin and asked what does this mean, and they got an answer that made them to keep the original plan, and this agreement included that Stalin does not attack Poland at the same time as Germany. Had there not been such an agreement, France and England would have declared war on the SU soon after 17. September.

    Replies: @john v.

    “That is an interesting theory. I know they were supposed to attack at the same time and Germans thought they would, but is there an reason to think that Germany would not have ended up with a war against France and England? ”

    My understanding is that the French and British guarantee extended to Poland only against an attack from Germany. Other than that, an alliance of France and Great Britain would have been to weak to declare war to both Germany and USSR at the same time. Therefore very probably they would have not declared war if both Germany and USSR were invading Poland at the same time.

    But Stalin wanted war in Western Europe. Therefore he stood back, he allowed France and the Great Britain to declare the war against Germany, then prepared his troops to attack Germany in the back while the German forces were busy fighting against the British forces. His plan had been all along to liberate the “proletariat” all the way to Atlantic.

    • Replies: @j2
    @john v.

    But France and England gave Hitler two days to withdraw. Why did Hitler not withdraw when he saw that Stalin did not attack, that is, assuming that Hitler did not want a world war but just a part of Poland? By not withdrawing he decided for a world war, must have understood that such a war would come, must have understood that Stalin is not reliable and that very possibly it would be a repetition of the situation in the first world war. Still he decided not to withdraw.

    Replies: @Wally, @John V.

  • @Seraphim
    @john v.

    Stalin wanted to recover Russian lost territories. Why was that worse than Hitler's desire to recover German territories? It seems that people cannot get over the meme of Russian innate malfeasance.

    Replies: @john v.

    Those that Stalin “recovered” were not Russian lost territories. Stalin ended “recovering” more than what Russia had ever occupied before anyway. And he wanted to “recover” all the way to Atlantic. Anything wrong with that? Not if you are Russian, yes if you are a native of on one of those territories.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @john v.

    Not exactly. In 1914 the Russian Empire occupied the whole of Finland, Congress Poland, the Baltic Countries. In 1939 Russia re-occupied only parts of them. The extra-territory was Galitia and Bukovina.

  • @j2
    @UncommonGround

    Why Hitler attacked the Soviet Union in 1941? Maybe he was forced to attack at that time. Possible.
    But it is a wrong question.

    The correct question is why Hitler attacked Poland? Hitler had some problems with Poles, but it did not require a war and occupation of the country. Attacking to Poland started the world war. It was known that it would bring in France, most probably also the Great Britain, and the Soviet Union was a threat, the USA would fight in Europe after some time. If Hitler tried to avoid a world war, the only decision needed was not to attack to Poland but to find some other solution, even taking Germans in Poland to main Germany.

    But Mein Kampf mentions Jews on almost every page, so that was something essential to Hitler. If the real reason of the war was forcing Jews out Europe into the homeland that Zionist bankers had got through the previous bloody world war, then occupying Poland was unavoidable as that is where most of them were. Areas in the east, stopping Communism, they were secondary goals and the final result, Germany's defeat, could be seen, but this single goal was what Hitler wanted to achieve, and achieved: Israel.

    Replies: @UncommonGround, @Wally, @Wally, @Steve Naidamast, @Anonymous, @Sin City Milla, @john v.

    Hitler and Stalin were supposed to attack Poland at the same time. If that had happened, France and the Great Britain would have not declared war to Germany, and there would have been no World War 2.

    Unfortunately Stalin wanted Germany at war against the Great Britain and France, so that USSR could attack Germany in the back and “liberate” (or in other words conquer), the whole Europe all the way to the Atlantic.

    Therefore, he delayed his attack in Poland by 2 weeks, time in which the World War 2 had started.

    Why Hitler attacked Poland? Maybe he wanted to recover the lost German territories, or maybe Stalin convinced him somehow.

    But it is clear to me that Stalin pulled the strings. The only time Hitler outsmarted Stalin was when he attacked USSR first.

    USSR was armed to the teeth, and they were researching and building weapons for at least a decade. That was a huge investment for a poor country. The Soviets were not stupid, they knew that the weapons will be obsolete within a few years if not used. It is clear to me that they were prepared to use them at any costs. Without the war between Germany and France and the Great Britain, they would have attacked first anyway.

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @john v.

    Stalin wanted to recover Russian lost territories. Why was that worse than Hitler's desire to recover German territories? It seems that people cannot get over the meme of Russian innate malfeasance.

    Replies: @john v.

    , @j2
    @john v.

    "Hitler and Stalin were supposed to attack Poland at the same time. If that had happened, France and the Great Britain would have not declared war to Germany, and there would have been no World War 2."

    That is an interesting theory. I know they were supposed to attack at the same time and Germans thought they would, but is there an reason to think that Germany would not have ended up with a war against France and England?

    Hitler could not attack France in any other way than through Belgium, which would very probably bring in England even if England had not declared war the same time with France. Thus, if France would be at war with Germany, so would England.

    Germany attacked Poland 1. September 1939, two weeks after signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, France and England declared was 3. September and the SU attacked 17. September. But before the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement France and England thought that Germany and the SU were sworn enemies and for that reason must have considered Soviets on their side, probably also negotiated with them. The relations between Poland and Germany deteriorated for a longer time. It seems to me that France and England intended to declare war on Germany in case it invades Poland already before the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement. Thus, the claim would be that signing of this agreement would have scared France and England from following the policy they already had decided on. i rather doubt it. What I think would have happened is that when the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement was signed, France and England immediately contacted Stalin and asked what does this mean, and they got an answer that made them to keep the original plan, and this agreement included that Stalin does not attack Poland at the same time as Germany. Had there not been such an agreement, France and England would have declared war on the SU soon after 17. September.

    Replies: @john v.

    , @j2
    @john v.

    "Why Hitler attacked Poland? Maybe he wanted to recover the lost German territories, or maybe Stalin convinced him somehow. "

    Hitler attacked 1. September 1939. France and England put an ultimatum on Germany expiring 3.September 1939. Stalin had not attacked. If Hitler wanted to avoid the war, even if he was tricked by Stalin, he could announce withdrawal of German troops from Poland before the ultimatum expired. He did not do so, therefore he decided to start a world war. The attack to Poland must have been planned before the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement, thus Hitler planned an attack and could not know if Stalin would join him. These things show that Hitler needed to attack Poland even if it meant a world war where Germany would very probably be in the same situation as in the first world war.

    When Hitler took over Poland he started collecting Jews to camps. These Jews were finally not exterminated and nobody anymore claims that there was any extermination plan in 1939. The plan was also not to keep unreliable people in camps. Jews were to be moved and after the war they were to be moved to a new homeland. What can be this homeland? Some still claim it was Madagascar, but if so then why did Hitler make the Haavara agreement? Haavara was to take German Jews with their capital to build the initial infrastructure to new Israel in Palestine, not Madagascar or any other place. No other country, including the USA which was so controlled by bankers that it was taken to WWI in exchange of a promise of a homeland in Palestine, agreed to take Jews. So, they were moved by Hitler to wait for transfer to the new homeland.

    I find impossible to explain these issues by Hitler's desire to get some land from Poland, or his worry of the situation of Germans in Poland. Jews are mentioned 445 times in Mein Kampf, Poles only 4 times (Finns and Swedes not at all). Jews were the central issue to him and he wanted to transform them out of Europe to a new homeland, not to exterminate all of them.

    Replies: @John V.