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"Wizard of Oz"
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    Poisoning enemies has a long history with Augustus Caesar’s wife Livia allegedly a master of the art, as were the Borgias in Renaissance Italy. Lately there has been a resurgence in allegations regarding the use of poisons of various types by several governments. The claims are particularly damaging both morally and legally as international conventions...
  • @AnonFromTN
    Is there a superior alternative to May? If there is, why didn’t Brits get rid of that embarrassment? Next to her even John Major looks like an outstanding statesman.

    Her performance on Skripal right or wrong is hardly worth mentioning when deciding whether and when she has to go. Compared to Brexit give it a 2 per cent weighting.

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    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    Her performance has included telling bald-faced lies, lies that are easily exposed as lies too. This is rarely if ever going to add weight to any personal brand, let alone that of a political leader. She's toast!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @dearieme
    If I had to guess at what's been going on in Salisbury I'd wonder if a lunatic/evil employee at Porton Down has smuggled out something nasty and is amusing himself with it.

    Yes, interesting that PG has only now brought to a UR article that rather obvious possible connection between Porton Down and the nearby poisonings.

    I don’t think it is one of his major areas of attention. Why else would he include with Trump the unfortunate May as someone he would like to see people rise up against and throw out of office for offences unstated?

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  • About a decade ago, I happened to be talking with an eminent academic scholar who had become known for his sharp criticism of Israeli policies in the Middle East and America's strong support for them. I mentioned that I myself had come to very similar conclusions some time before, and he asked when that had...
  • @Grahamsno(G64)
    Wow explosive stuff Ron, the tribe will come for you.

    In keeping with the spirit of the essay, new Jim Crow legislation's being proposed in Israel. Imagine the outrage if it were done in the US.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/15/israel-turmoil-bill-allowing-jews-arabs-segregated

    In fairness …. that link shows what liberalism in the classic sense flourishes in Israel even if it is nowhere near a majority emotion.

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  • @bossel

    completely removed from both YouTube and BloggingHeadsTV
     
    Not really. Watching it there right now. Length 65:49.

    Link please. I went for BloggingHeads and it wasn’t there.

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    • Replies: @res
    Direct link to the Kevin MacDonald discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voavSTsPvrM&t=2301s
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • Blood Passover is made more believable generally by consideration of the entirely authority plus faith based persecution of non existent witches. Great Britain had become quite moderate until James 1′s experience in Denmark when he was James VI of Scotland picking up his bride turned him into a scholar of Demonologie and, despite his son Charles 1 putting a damper on witchhunting it took off during the civil war about 1645 and led to the killing of hundreds of witches over the next hundred years. Local villagers were often the accusers for pecuniary or other malign motives and de facto circumvention of legal restrictions on torture were common. Not the same obviously but it makes belief in almost any primitive practices quite credible.

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    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome


    Blood Passover is made more believable generally by

     

    things like this...
    Advertisement poster for: Santa Clarita Diet, a Netflix Original Series
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  • President Donald Trump makes a point of insisting that he has nothing against the Iranian people and is only interested in opposing what he regards as the dangerous activities of their government, but his own record in office belies that claim. It is clear that what he is trying to do is put pressure on...
  • @Art
    L.K,

    Trump is promoting the Jew, Boris Johnson as Brit PM – when will it end?

    He says that he is going to hurt Iran so much that they will beg him for relief.

    He says he will starve them into Israeli submission. What a guy!

    Of course his meeting with Putin will revolve around Israel.

    Think Peace --- Art

    Where do you get Boris Johnson as a Jew? Of course his Turkish ancestry is a bit obscured by those blue eyes and blonde head of hair.

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    • Replies: @Art
    Where do you get Boris Johnson as a Jew?

    Wiki: Johnson has described himself as a "one-man melting pot" – with a combination of Muslims, Jews, and Christians as great-grandparents.

    He sure loves and favors Israel. Hmm!

    Think Peace --- Art

    p.s. Dirty Rosenstein is Jew Deep State.
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  • @Rogue
    I'd say you suffer from WASP Derangement Syndrome.

    WASPS built America, Canada, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Non WASPS built Central and South America.

    Modern day WASPS have nothing like the control you ascribe to them - are there any WASPS on the US Supreme Court?

    The Judaizising of America started in the late 19th century, primarily via mass Jewish immigration, and not before then.

    You have a stuck needle.

    Perhaps he’s stuck back in the 16th century when the Pope of the time gave the Portuguese (in writing) the right to take Muslims and pagans into “perpetual slavery” and when lots of women were tortured and burned as witches.

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  • Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia...
  • @AnonFromTN
    I am not sure how many “accidental” deaths or “murders in the course of botched robbery” (alleged in the case of Seth Rich) can be covered up.

    I am not a pro in missiles, either. All I know is that THREE allegedly Buk shrapnel pieces were found in the bodies of pilots, and none anywhere else. Exploding Buk 9N314M warhead (alleged by the Dutch investigators) disperses almost 8 thousand shrapnel pieces, so there should have been hundreds, if not thousands, found in the wreckage and the bodies of passengers. They were not. Buk manufacturer Almaz-Antei has stated several times in public that the 9N314M warhead cannot be operated from the 9M38 missile series: the two cannot be connected electronically. Then again, Almaz-Antei might be lying, just like JIT. I’d love to hear from a pro not paid by either side.

    Where did you get that “three allegedly BUK shrapnel pieces were found in the body of the pilots” ? I ask because you appear to be relying on unreliable sources. Thanks to a surprisingly useful link from one of the dimmer commenters to what appears to be the full DSB report on a Russian site I can tell you that “hundreds” of fragments were found in the bodies of each of the people in the cockpit and that the “three” reference was to the non-flying Team B captain.

    Moreover the photographs in the report uniformly deny all those stories of round holes from bullets. The evidences of shrapnel from a missile explosion are abundant. Also the DSB report lists about ten possible air-to-air missile types and excludes them all.

    The map showing where the parts of the plane were found (quite widely separated) makes it clear that the aircraft broke up in flight in a way which shooting down by a fighter could not have caused. (Apparently, too, none of the Ukrainian or Russian radar records showed any other plane in the immediate facility oh MH17 which seems to quash several theories in one hit).

    You seemed to wander into partisan territory earlier when you referred to the Donbass rebels handing over the aircraft wreckage to investigators and suggesting that perhaps they should not have done that. .

    Did you mean to suggest seriously that they should have obstructed recovery and investigation? Why?

    Actually they didn’t hand over wreckage. For some weeks they apparently made it too dangerous for investigators to visit the 6 debris sites and then, far from handing anything over, may have tried to hamper the investigation team’s collecting of material by preventing anything being taken – like a missile fragment – that wasn’t part of the aircraft. (That last I heard in an interview of an onsite investigator: it may not be in the DSB report).

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Sorry, humans don’t talk to trolls. Especially trolls posting blatant lies.
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  • The FLynn Effect has not acted uniformly across the various domains of intelligence. To put it very roughly, in the past century, the developed world has seen a two S.D. improvement on Raven's Progressive Matrices, hardly any improvement in verbal or Backward Digit Span tests, and a one S.D. improvement in various picture arrangement and...
  • @Okechukwu

    It follows that populations in developed countries have a larger portion of old people, whose brains are smaller, thus they have in average smaller brains than the cranial capacity shows when compared to a country with younger population.
     
    If a study doesn't control for a major variable like age then it's a moot point, as the study is garbage.

    I meant that it is not obvious that for all human populations the same percentage of the cranial capacity is filled with brain tissue in the same age.
     
    On what information are you basing this on? You're wrong. The cranium stores the brain in exactly the same way in every human.

    What was interesting in the article was that verbal IQ is not correlated with the brain size.
     
    IQ is garbage, as is brain size. Some Africans speak 4-6 languages, including an exquisite command of English. I don't see how someone who speaks multiple languages is going to have a lower verbal IQ than someone who speaks only one, assuming the test is credible.

    Whenever someone is referred to as speaking X (4 or5+) languages I wonder about two things. One is what the vocabulary size is in each language (personally as well as for all language speakers: think of Aboriginal languages with no writing). The other is how well each language is spoken, especially given the need to keep up the use of a language to remain fluent.

    How do these tests apply in Africa?

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    • Replies: @Okechukwu

    Whenever someone is referred to as speaking X (4 or5+) languages I wonder about two things. One is what the vocabulary size is in each language (personally as well as for all language speakers: think of Aboriginal languages with no writing). The other is how well each language is spoken, especially given the need to keep up the use of a language to remain fluent.
     
    My mother has a deep and vast vocabulary in every language she speaks. But I see your point. My wife is German, and although she's very proficient in English, sometimes she surprises me with words and concepts she doesn't understand. You just take it for granted as a native English speaker that people should know these things, but it isn't always the case.
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  • @Twinkie

    What happened in Eastern Eurasia, under the crushing dominance of Chinese civilization, was something like what would have occurred in Europe, North Africa and the Levant had the Roman Empire the same level of institutional resilience, ethno-cultural cohesion and general ability to regenerate, as the Chinese state.

    Sometimes, ethnic assimilation, organization and efficiency can succeed too well, and therefore go too far. The civilization’s structure becomes so well-formed that it becomes rigid, and therefore dynamism is not merely neglected but often brutally suppressed.
     
    This is often brought up when the European Age of Discovery (and Sailing) is discussed. Why didn't the Chinese dominate the seas when they had better maritime technology? For example, their ships had bulkheads since the 5th century possibly and definitely by the 12th while they did not spread to European shipbuilding until the late 18th to early 19th centuries.

    By now, most well-read people in the West are aware of the epic journeys of Admiral Zheng He (who reached Africa and the Middle East), whose legacy was destroyed by the agrarian mandarins in control of the Ming central government - to the extent that they had the books and documents relating to shipbuilding and maritime travel burned and severely restricted anything beyond coastal trade.

    Therein lies a lesson about centralization - it has early advantages engendered by unity of purpose and economy of scale, but mistakes made at the center by a few can reverberate and retard the whole civilization in the long-run. The location of the Sinic civilization of East Asia worsened this tendency since it was isolated away from the rest of Eurasia while, within the region, there were few barriers to centralization resulting in a mammoth, contiguous civilization of several thousand years.

    In contrast, Europe, especially Northwest Europe, had a late start, but benefitted greatly from the geography - being located close to the cradle of human civilization and therefore early inventions and thoughts as well as having many barriers (mountains and rivers) that checked the emergence of a single hegemon all the while still allowing for transmissions of useful technologies (rivers and the Mediterranean can be barriers to control as well as facilitators of communication). This seems to have helped create numerous independent powers that increased the overall competition (which means wars) that in turn accelerated quest for competitive advantages (inventions and adoption of novel technologies).

    I am familiar with and sympathetic to this explanation of “The European Miracle” (Cf. Eric Jones) but reading your comment makes me wonder about Europe’s geographical advantages (for competition) compared to China. Given China’s great rivers and mountains I would be pleased to read a detailed comparison of European and Chinese geography so far as relevant to this thesis.

    I recall John Derbyshire quoting some Chinese scholar’s lament that China had not experienced the Renaisance and Reformation – maybe adding the Enlightenment. Anyway the point was the lack of such cultural events. Maybe we should regard 500 years in 2500 as susceptible to large effects from a few chance factors coming together rather than to be explained, for example, by the massive centralizing and originality crushing effects of the Mandarin dominated empire.

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  • The inspiration for this article is a piece on the politico.eu website, which I assume is the European version of our own center-left Politico.com: The subhead to the article is: "Fortress Europe hardens its heart." The body of the article is a breathless argument from the bleeding-heart Left that Europe's leaders are abandoning their Open-Borders...
  • @Tono Bungay
    Maybe it's time to abandon the Stop Immigration gear and shift into the Start Expulsion gear. Is it unimaginable for the US or a European country to announce something like this: For many decades we handed out citizenship in a reckless, irresponsible way. We had a lot of good intentions, but the clear evidence now shows that we're headed for big, big trouble unless we turn around. We hate to renege, but the alternative is civil war, in one form or another. Therefore, now that we've expelled all illegal immigrants, we are annulling all nationalizations made over the past five (or ten or twenty) years. We recognize that this will mean hardship for many individuals and families. But we flatter ourselves that when you return to your home country you will bring the benefits of your experience here. You will be the seed corn for better relations between our countries. America: Love It and Leave It.

    My guess is that the American Constitution wouldn’t allow it even if it were politically possible. Does anyone know the case law (if there is any) on depriving people of citizenship? My (more confident) guess is that citizens by naturalization could be deprived of citizenship if and only if they had achieved citizenship by fraud at some stage of the process which would include those who lied about their membership of the SS in order to get a US Visa.

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  • @Anon 2
    With his dubious claim that the Chinese are Ice People Mr. Derbyshire reveals
    that geography was not his strong suit in school (compared to math).

    The most obvious fact about China's geography as compared to that of
    Europe is that China is much much farther south. Examples:

    Hong Kong 22°N (just south of Tropic of Cancer!)
    Shanghai 31°N
    Beijing 39°N

    The greatest scientific discoveries in Europe were made much farther north

    Copernicus, N. Poland 56°N
    Galileo, N. Italy 44°N
    Newton, Cambridge 52°N
    etc.

    Even the origins of science in Europe, which can be traced to Miletus (37°N) in ancient
    Ionia, are associated with a location much farther north than most of China. Thales
    and Leucippus, originator of the atomic theory, are said to have lived in Miletus.

    Hence the vast majority of the Chinese are definitely Sun people. This partly
    explains their few achievements, despite their long history and large population.
    The Chinese strike me more as analogous to the Middle Eastern people in their
    behavior - both groups are emotional and superstitious, i.e., displaying traits
    associated with the southern races.

    What is current thinking about the evolution and fixing of the epicanthic fold in East Asian people? Was/is it not supposed to be an adaptation to cold dry climates? Maybe also deserts?

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  • Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia...
  • @skrik

    The SMH is ... in no way plugged into US propaganda
     
    Says you; do you lie on malignant purpose or out of sheer, utter ignorance?

    Let smh speak for itself:


    Yet this creates a dilemma for the West which for the last few years has seen Russia as a dour geo-political trouble maker hostile to democratic values
     
    Me: Haw #1

    Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014
     
    Me: Lie #1

    and likely played a role in the shooting down of Malaysian airliner MH17
     
    Me: Lie #2

    the use allegedly by Russian agents on its territory of a toxic nerve agent which caused more damage this week
     
    Me: A really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

    The issue of Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election is significant
     
    Me: The next really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

    Mr Putin must be enlisted to play a role building peace in the Syrian conflict
     
    Me: Haw #2, Mr Putin is actively 'building peace in Syria' by successfully combating the FUKUSIL terrorist, war-criminal proxies like IS et al..

    Fazit: The SMH is as far up the rogue-regime empire's propaganda rear fundamental orifice so as to see no daylight.

    mendaci neque quum vera dicit, creditor

    Well I suppose one lot of peasants, not being armed to fight the real battle with the knights and archers could try some rape and pillage of the camp followers amidst the baggage train. You have added the personal detail of smearing faeces from some undetermined species.

    No word on the substance but even your peripheral marauding invites the observation that the selective quotes go nowhere near denying the not “plugged in” to US propaganda. Fairfax Media, which has a long history of which you probably know little, often gets things wrong like all news media. It made United Australia Party people very angry about 1941 when it supported the Labor Party, and it did it again later to the Liberals but there is no way it has become a knowing conduit for any propagandists/parties/countries. Please try to stop seeing malignity whenever someone says something you don’t immediately approve.

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  • @AnonFromTN
    The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.

    You don’t know the “intelligent people’s” meaning of fallacy: res ipsa loquitur.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Arguing with a troll makes as much sense as a heart-to-heart conversation with a lamppost. Even discussing such an apolitical subject as Latin. Ciao.
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  • @FB

    '...If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000...'
     
    You have that completely backwards...it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off...

    The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330...the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]...

    The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian... that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook...this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc...often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there...

    There is nothing unusual about any of this...ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan...the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further...so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude...

    [hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]...

    Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine...not 'six or seven'...

    So you enjoy beating up a scrap over trivia with lots of words when there is no useful point to be advanced.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Pot, meet kettle. Asshole.
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  • Back in Junior High School I became an avid war-gamer, and was fascinated by the military history of the past, especially World War II, the most titanic conflict ever recorded. However, although I much enjoyed reading the detailed accounts of the battles of that war, especially on the Eastern Front that largely determined its outcome,...
  • @Ron Unz

    In general, I would think that time should improve historians’ ability to determine such facts as the number of people killed during a particular period, so I am not particularly disturbed by the idea that a contemporaneous account might need severe adjustment later.
     
    Well, that's certainly possible. On the other hand, it's also much easier for ideologically-driven historians living several decades later on the other side of the Atlantic to make unpleasant historical realities go away with just a few strokes of their pen.

    My strong impression is that every political authority at the time believed that there had been over 100,000 killings during Liberation, and apparently no one much challenged that figure for decades afterward. If 40 years later, Paxton somehow cut the total by 90%, I'd be very curious to know how he managed to do so. Did he spend years of painstaking research consulting the archival death-records of every one of France's hundreds of arrondissements and adding up the total? Or did he just quote some Communist leader somewhere who claimed that the official figures were wildly exaggerated?

    Ron can you clear up the possible ambiguity of your reference to Captain Russell Grenfell taking exception to newspapers’ headlined articles on the torture of prisoners at/for the war crimes trials to coerce confessions? Presumably he didn’t want to have the torture covered up but that seems to be left open.

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    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    Ron can you clear up the possible ambiguity of your reference to Captain Russell Grenfell taking exception to newspapers’ headlined articles on the torture of prisoners at/for the war crimes trials to coerce confessions? Presumably he didn’t want to have the torture covered up but that seems to be left open.
     
    My apologies for the careless ambiguity of my text.

    Captain Grenfell very strongly disapproved of the horrific torture used by the Americans to coerce totally ridiculous confessions out of the German prisoners at the various war crime trials. Meanwhile, he seemed quite grateful to the British papers for properly informing him and others that this had been happening.
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  • Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia...
  • @FB
    So that's your 'evidence' to support your earlier statement...?

    '...the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17...'
     
    Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over to the DSB by the Russian govt...but the 'satellite photo' was something that ran in Russian media...and was supposedly 'debunked' by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever...

    And just to put this in perspective...the very same source you pointed to says the Russian news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one 'George Bilt'...not from Russian sats...

    So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo...the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone...so your representation of this on this thread is clearly false...

    As for Higgins and Bellingcat...we may recall that 'Brown Moses' has called distinguished MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon...an 'idiot'...

    ...also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/ht8cnzlel/Higgins_Postol_debate_challenge.jpg


    https://s20.postimg.cc/3mslsrxot/Higgins_Postol_debate_challenge_2.jpg


    Hmm...interesting that self-proclaimed 'expert' Higgins chickens out from an actual debate...of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media...and that he would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol...

    Another big effort completely nullified by your failure to read and understand the words. Even taking “the [sic] Russians” to mean official government Russians it was not I who referred to “the Russians” but Bierstiefel. I did think of specifically pointing out to him that it seemed to be merely an effort of the incompetent Russian cheer squad but hadn’t counted on there being a wordy representative of it here who needs kindergarten explanations.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    We can tell you put a lot of effort into these speeches. Do you practice in front of the mirror?
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  • @AnonFromTN
    Life is simple. “Cui bono” is the key. The rest is hot air.

    You seem to be clever enough when you try hard… Do you understand why I say your use of “cui bono” is an instance of the petitio principii fallacy?

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    The US propaganda machine is remiss, it does not teach trolls posing as intelligent people proper Latin. The fallacy of petitio principii describes the position of the State Department and the US in general best: no investigation was necessary, the guilty were appointed even before the debris of MH17 cooled down. Try again.
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  • @FB

    '...Nothing to do with radar...'
     
    Sorry kid...like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar data I mentioned...

    This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as 'not usable' due to formatting issues, exactly as I said...here is a Dutch news report from 2017...

    And the google translation from the Dutch...

    '...Kiev - Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.

    The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.

    "More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images," he says.

    Russia had handed over the data - shortly after the publication of a report in September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines' MH17 flight...'
     
    I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and obfuscation...

    Learn to read what others say. I made no claim that the Russian government was behind the photograph. All that you say here is irrelevant not air as a reply.

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  • @skrik
    Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don't know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.

    Haw. In fact, guffaw. What a disgrace.

    Another shonk. For your trivial point…..The SMH is, with The Age, a shadow of its former self but leftish and greenish and in no way plugged into US propaganda.

    For your substantial deficiency…. Are you arguing that this photograph proves something? Or are you arguing that the Russian cheer squad never published it? You are not clearly doing more than making a vulgar noise.

    More to the real point you fail to notice that my reference to the photo was to point out that the proponents of canon or machine gun fire from a fighter were maybe off message. Also, that, accepting the photo as genuine, the pilots would probably have seen something which would be reflected in what the voice recorder picked up.

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    • Replies: @skrik

    The SMH is ... in no way plugged into US propaganda
     
    Says you; do you lie on malignant purpose or out of sheer, utter ignorance?

    Let smh speak for itself:


    Yet this creates a dilemma for the West which for the last few years has seen Russia as a dour geo-political trouble maker hostile to democratic values
     
    Me: Haw #1

    Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014
     
    Me: Lie #1

    and likely played a role in the shooting down of Malaysian airliner MH17
     
    Me: Lie #2

    the use allegedly by Russian agents on its territory of a toxic nerve agent which caused more damage this week
     
    Me: A really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

    The issue of Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election is significant
     
    Me: The next really stupid unsubstantiated allegation

    Mr Putin must be enlisted to play a role building peace in the Syrian conflict
     
    Me: Haw #2, Mr Putin is actively 'building peace in Syria' by successfully combating the FUKUSIL terrorist, war-criminal proxies like IS et al..

    Fazit: The SMH is as far up the rogue-regime empire's propaganda rear fundamental orifice so as to see no daylight.

    mendaci neque quum vera dicit, creditor

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  • @annamaria
    You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are "ethnically impure" (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.

    Just plain silly. Same point as not putting definitive reliance on anyone anywhere who might be under political pressure to tell one simple lie.

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  • @FB

    '...Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun...'
     
    Sure thing, Perry Mason...LOL...btw I see you have turned this thread into the 'Wizard Spamfest'...nice work...

    For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon...

    Here's what that BBC article you linked to says...


    '...The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day - 160 planes flew over the region...'
     
    Now here is the rest of the story...for those who are actually qualified commercial pilots, that sentence is meaningless...yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that day...a region more than half the size of Germany...only a small fraction of which region is the actual conflict area...

    Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the country...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/x1tonupnh/Ukraine_FIRs.jpg


    Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV]...comparable to the size of the entire neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR covering its entire territory]...

    Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors...only the most eastern one being the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself...here's another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/99kdcjl4d/Ukraine_FIRs.jpg


    Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area...notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/wvfzkx8ul/Dnipro_FIR_High_Altitude_Chart.jpg


    The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary...and the small black lines are the airways, which are the ATC 'highways' for aircraft traffic...


    Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including the airway designations...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/od6jgxxal/Dnipro_FIR_High_Altitude_Chart_Zoom_markup.jpg


    The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was flying...the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down...here is the illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/yoiw95u0d/DSB_L980_Airway.jpg


    So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine...and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport...so saying that 160 flights flew over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this actual route...ie airway L980...big difference...

    Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything...

    Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur...and its normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south...

    There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft]...and I will be glad to explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested...as this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully understandable to the layman...

    As for our friend Wizard...may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself here...

    So you are a commercial pilot? Perhaps for you the formidable amount of technical expertise you have crammed in your brain has left too little room for elementary logic.

    If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or35,000 feet instead of 33,000 then the presence of 160 aircraft on that day is clearly capable (unless Planefunder can give you precise data to allow disproof) of producing circumstances where at a particular time air traffic control found it imprudent to allow MH17 to fly at a more economically optimal level – or air traffic control might have been bloody minded or lazy. (How about trying to deter pilots from even asking? Imagine “I wish these greedy bastards would stop trying to chisel another bloody thousand feet out of us”.Yep, imagination may be lacking as well as logic).

    If the argument is just about flying over Eastern Ukraine at all then it is apparent that only about 6 or 7 airlines had stopped doing so – or is the commercial pilot going to tell us in detail how that is wrong?

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    • Replies: @FB

    '...If the argument (to draw your attention back to it) is that there is something suspicious in air traffic control denying the pilots of MH17 the right to fly at 34 or 35,000 feet instead of 33,000...'
     
    You have that completely backwards...it was ATC that requested MH17 to climb to FL350 [35,000 ft] as per the flight plan filed by the MH17 crew before taking off...

    The ATC request was denied by the MH17 crew which chose to continue at FL330...the reason for this was discussed in the DSB report [sec 3.3.2]...

    The reason the crew chose to stay at this cruise altitude was explained to the DSB by Malaysian... that 33,800 ft was the optimal altitude for the given conditions, per the Boeing performance handbook...this is due to the fact that optimal altitude varies with atmospheric conditions of temperature and pressure, winds aloft etc...often the weather predictions at the time of filing the flight plan change by the time you get there...

    There is nothing unusual about any of this...ATC was simply directing the crew to go to the altitude it had filed in its plan...the crew chose to remain where they were and ATC did not deny that clearance, nor did it question it further...so it has nothing to do with any possible traffic conflicts as you seem to allude...

    [hard to actually tell what it is you are saying, but you seem to imply that there was all kinds of traffic there and that this whole altitude business had to do with that...completely wrong]...

    Also the DSB interviewed 16 operators, eight of which stopped flying over eastern Ukraine...not 'six or seven'...

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  • @AnonFromTN
    You said it. Bringing to heel the Netherlands and a few other reluctant allies was one of the points of this operation. From this even a monkey can figure out who designed this op. Unfortunately for the planners, it was executed by extremely inept lackeys, so that instead of unassailable false flag they got a mess lasting for four years already.

    And again blowing hard on matters way out of your area of expertise (and that of nearly all commenters). What do you really know about US relations with the Netherlands or how they are conducted?

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  • @AnonFromTN
    You may be right, for all I know. I am just looking for the simplest solution possible. As far as I can tell, this means a genuine MH17 flight and CIA-designed plot ham-handedly executed by habitually inept Ukies.

    “Simple(st) solution”!!! How about a truly simple solution. Russia had done – surely for certain – what America did in Syria and armed anti-government rebels plus supplies some volunteers/mercenaries/regulars on leave and an accident happened?

    You seem to have brought a conspiratorial cast of mind to good old straightforward Tennessee.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Life is simple. “Cui bono” is the key. The rest is hot air.
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  • @jilles dykstra
    There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.
    No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
    But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
    It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against BUK's aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the plane.
    In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.

    Does your extensive reading get in the way of common sense thinking? You feature the need for motive as if it was important. Why isn’t accidental shooting down of a civil aircraft with a BUK missile an explanation which gets over any need for finding a motive to commit – other than for non state terrorists – an unprecedented act of savagery which, btw, no no state would want to inflict on the airline and tourist industries.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    There is not much accidental in Ukrainian bombers using passenger planes as shield against BUKs.
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  • @skrik
    1. Der.

    2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely [premeditation] have their story 'straight;' in your own words, Russia probably went something like: 'OMG! What animals would do such a thing!'

    3. No; Russia is not playing 'the great game' that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.

    4. https://www.freiburger-nachrichten.ch/sites/default/files/styles/lead_image/public/images/sda/20140725113318372.jpg

    An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, 'wounds.' Of course, no 'chain of custody' exists, and the piece could have been physically 'post processed.' The task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you not heard: Don't start an inquiry you can't control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et al..


    FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don’t know whether that has any legs.
     
    Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of 'whole cloth?'

    Very interesting that you post a photograph which seems to be evidence of the exact opposite of what you seem to contend. Not a round hole in sight but plenty of evidence of shrapnel.

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  • @Bierstiefel
    Where is this photo presented as evidence by the Russians?

    Could you provide a link?

    I couldn’t remember where I had seen it so I Googled for “debunked mh17 photo” and came up with a ot of sites including this one

    https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.t5107/

    which seems to reproduce what I remember, and

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/sensational-russian-photo-of-mh17-being-shot-debunked-by-citizen-journalist-group-20141115-11nbqs.html

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    • Replies: @FB
    So that's your 'evidence' to support your earlier statement...?

    '...the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17...'
     
    Turns out, from your own citation above that this was not anything that was handed over to the DSB by the Russian govt...but the 'satellite photo' was something that ran in Russian media...and was supposedly 'debunked' by self-styled expert Eliott Higgins [aka 'Brown Moses], an underwear salesman and blogger who has no technical credentials whatsoever...

    And just to put this in perspective...the very same source you pointed to says the Russian news outlet that ran the story got the sat photo by email from an American individual, one 'George Bilt'...not from Russian sats...

    So the fact of the matter is that the Russian govt never provided any satellite photo...the whole thing was a media concoction of no interest to anyone...so your representation of this on this thread is clearly false...

    As for Higgins and Bellingcat...we may recall that 'Brown Moses' has called distinguished MIT professor and former scientific adviser to the chief of naval operations at the Pentagon...an 'idiot'...

    ...also turning down a challenge to actually debate prof Postol...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/ht8cnzlel/Higgins_Postol_debate_challenge.jpg


    https://s20.postimg.cc/3mslsrxot/Higgins_Postol_debate_challenge_2.jpg


    Hmm...interesting that self-proclaimed 'expert' Higgins chickens out from an actual debate...of course this nitwit knows full well that his BS only works on social media...and that he would be dismantled like a cardboard box by a bona fide scientist like Prof Postol...
    , @skrik
    Do you really fancy your chances of raising your credibility above 0°K [= absolute zero] by citing smh citing bellingcat? For any who don't know, smh is a shonky 2nd-string Aus branch of the MSM-Lügenpresse, and belling cat is a rogue-regime empire psyop.

    Haw. In fact, guffaw. What a disgrace.

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  • @Vojkan
    Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk doesn't strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know that the holes in the cockpit don't match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn't match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of bullshit.

    You may be just one of the UR threadsters who is , metaphorically, in love with your own voice, but you show such indifference to either fact or audience that your research hasn’t even turned up the fact that I am a Hindi speaking beryllium fabrication specialist who has had to have my comments composed by AI and translated and edited by a Hindi speaking Welshman.

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    • Replies: @Vojkan
    You don't say. And I thought you were a mythomaniac.
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  • @Biff

    I like attacking bad arguments.
     
    Give yourself a spanking.

    Oh I do that too. But that’s another guilty pleasure :-)

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    • Troll: Rurik
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  • @The Alarmist
    I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

    "Radar is able to detect two different objects."
     
    Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

    I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

    I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."

    You appear as to be quoting something you think I said, but I don’t recognize it as my words.

    Still your last paragraph points to something Russia’s/Putin’s enemies must have relished. That is Russia simply not having the free wheeling capitalist world’s skills at spin when confronted with embarrassment from a tragic accident.

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  • @jilles dykstra
    It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.

    We may have crossed wires. I was referring to the alleged evidence from the cockpit voice recorder, no doubt confirmed from air traffic control recordings that the pilots made a request to be allowed to increase altitude while in flight but that it was denied. On any view the fact that there were about 160 other flights in the area for air traffic control to deal with doesn’t leave much reason to treat air traffic control as being involved in something sinister. I am not surprised that anyone taking just a casual interest in MH17 should be ignorant of the busyness of traffic above 32,000 ft that day, but it is an important detail.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that the destruction of MH17 in midair was something sinister.
    No motive was ever give for either rebels or Russia.
    But continuous vague accusations against Russia.
    It may have been an accident, caused by Ukraine, using passenger planes as shield against BUK's aimed at Ukrainian bombers, it may be that an Ukrainian fighter pilot shot down the plane.
    In both cases a lower flying altitude makes sense.
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  • Back in Junior High School I became an avid war-gamer, and was fascinated by the military history of the past, especially World War II, the most titanic conflict ever recorded. However, although I much enjoyed reading the detailed accounts of the battles of that war, especially on the Eastern Front that largely determined its outcome,...
  • @Lauri Törni
    Such excesses were obviously unfortunate, but wars and liberations often unleash considerable brutality, and these spectacles of public humiliation obviously did not begin to compare with the vicious bloodshed of the years of Nazi control.



    .... and this is why all so called 'in-depth' articles regarding WW2 and Germany are extremely biased.

    "Nazi-crimes" don't even begin to compare with the vicious bloodshed of Allied - Soviet Union included.

    Even prominent Jews have arrogantly boasted, that the 'concentration camps' and the 'killed' German Jews perfectly served their purpose. 250.000 German Jews lived in Nazi-Germany, but the international Jewish community kept on increasing the number of 'killed' Jews in Germany up to 6 million.

    When people continue referring to Hitler's "horrid deeds" - in order to justify their own deeds - they 'forgive' their own actions and act as if they never happened and they use the same old scapegoat: Germany and Hitler.

    Mannerheim was a man of honesty and integrity, "The Last European Knight" as the historians call him.

    President Mannerheim's Letter to the Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler, Sept. 2, 1944

    In this hour of hard decisions I am impelled to inform you, that I have arrived at the conviction, that the salvation of my nation makes it my duty to find a means of ending the war.

    The general development of total war, greatly restricts Germany's ability to send us sufficient help at the right time and in the difficult situations, which can be expected.

    It is my sincere belief, however, that Germany wishes to offer us this assistance. But the dispatch of a single German division to Finland requires such a long time, that our resistance against the overwhelming superiority of the enemy might break down before its arrival. I also fully understand, that the situation does not permit a sufficient number of German divisions being kept permanently in readiness in Finland. The experiences of the past summer confirm this.

    The judgment of the war situation, which I have just given, is shared by a growing majority of the representatives of the Finnish people. Even should my opinion be other than it is, it would not be possible for me, having regard to our constitution, to ignore the plainly shown wishes of the majority of the nation.

    When Field-Marshal Keitel recently visited me, he insisted that the people of Greater Germany could doubtless continue the war for another ten years if necessary.

    I replied, that even if one might hope that this be true of a nation of ninety millions, it was equally true, that we Finns were physically incapable of continuing the war. The Russians' great assaults in June exhausted our reserves. We cannot expose ourselves to another such blood-letting, without the whole future of the small Finnish nation being jeopardized.

    I wish especially to emphasize, that Germany will live on, even if fate should not crown your arms with victory.

    Nobody could give such an assurance regarding Finland. If that nation of barely four millions be militarily defeated, there can be little doubt, that it will be driven into exile or exterminated. I cannot expose my people to such a fate.

    Even though I can hardly hope, that my opinions and reasons will be accepted by you, I wish to send you these lines before the hour of decision.

    Our roads will probably soon part, but the memory of our German brothers-in-arms will live on.

    In Finland, the Germans have certainly not been the representatives of a foreign usurper, but helpers and brothers-in-arms, but even though that be the case, the position of foreigners is bound to be a very difficult one.

    I can assure you, that during the past years nothing whatever has happened, which could cause us to regard the German troops as oppressors or invaders.

    The conduct of the German Army in Northern Finland towards the local population and the local authorities will, I think, stand out in our history as an almost unique example of correct and friendly relations in similar conditions.

    I regard it as my duty to lead my people out of the war.

    The arms, which you have generously given us, I will never of my own accord turn against Germans.

    I cherish the hope that, even though you may take exception to my letter, you will share my wish and the wish of all Finns, that the change in our relations may not give rise to animosity.

    Source: The Memoirs of Marshal Mannerheim. Cassell & Co., London, 1953.
    https://histdoc.net/history/1941-1948/mannerheim1944-09-02.html

    ****

    When Germans retreated and took part in the 'pretend-war', i.e. Finns shot in the air and Germans pretendend to flee the Finnish troops, everything was fine.

    Until the Russian troops swooped in and massacred Finns and burned down villages in Northern Finland. Finns were forced to say, that it was the Germans who did it, although it wasn't true.

    I'm sick and tired of sugar-coating and blurring facts, so that they fit in the official narrative.

    Finnish Jews fought beside Germans against Soviet troops. Not one incident of indecent behavior was reported. They got along and they were brothers-in-arms.

    Finnish Jews fought for Finland and they did it voluntarily.

    Finland didn't have a "Jewish question" unlike Germany had. Had Hitler called them by their codename - Communists - things might have been different.

    During the Continuation War Finland was also forced to put up concentration camps, all Finnish communists were put there, because they allied with the aggressor, Soviet Union.

    When Hitler did the same, put Communists (mostly Jews) in concentration camps, so that they could not wage war against Germans and Germany, it enraged the international secret Communist system as well as the international Jewish community. And they turned the international community against Germany - and Finland also, since Finland did not have a Jewish (read: Communist) question.

    To be honest, I am extremely proud of the fact, that Finns shared the defeat of WW2 with Germans!

    Rather a war criminal together with Germany, than a victor together with the Allied. Our conscience is clear.

    But the rest of the countries, who either stood by as spectators or participated with the bullies, they should do some honest soul-searching - instead of continuning with the passé blaming game.

    When the whole world ganged up on tiny Finland, Germany was THE ONLY ONE, who took our side. Like in a school yard, where one big bully beats a small boy and others stand by - on the bully's side - without lifting a finger for the small boy. Then one of the big bullies - Germany - goes to the small boy laying on the ground, promises to fight with him, and also gets beaten.

    I raised my son to ALWAYS go between a fight and ALWAYS take the weaker one's side. NEVER stand by as a passive specator (aka enabler), but to take ACTION.

    All the nations are busy washing their bloody hands - with blood - instead of standing up and admitting their guilt.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDN7zhtCLRM

    Irrelevant perhaps to your interesting expression of a Finnish perspective but where do you get the figure of 250,000 Jews in Nazi Germany – and do you regard the figure as of any importance? My understanding is that in 1933 the figure was close to 600,000 though, come to think of it, I am not sure whose criteria applied and I believe that intermarriage was at least 33 per cent.

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    • Replies: @Lauri Törni
    From Harold Wallace Rosenthal's interview in 1976 - who was by the way 'mysteriously' murdered by 'Palestinian terrorists' after the interview... As for intermarriages again: My friend's Aunt fell in love with a German soldier in Finland. He brought her to Germany to marry her. "Adolf" didn't allow them to get married until her DNA was tested. Once it was clear that she was a Non-Jew, they got married.

    Here is the interveiw:

    The Harold Wallace Rosenthal Interview 1976


    Q:. The story about the six million Jews supposedly cremated or murdered by the Nazis.

    R. What about it?

    Q. Do you know who or what Jewish organization created that big lie?

    R. No, I don't know anything about its authenticity. I don't think it's too important anyway.

    Q. Mr. Rosenthal, you know better than that, What about the younger generation who is growing up believing this big lie? And you say it's not important!!

    R. It was an outgrowth of the war and we all know that Hitler hated the Jews so someone, somewhere, thought of exaggerating the number. We know that many, many Jews were killed by the Nazis.

    Q. I'm sure you know, that when World War II broke out there were less than a quarter of a million Jews in ALL of Germany. Many thousands had already left Germany.

    R. So what? As I said before, the Jewish people are the cleverest people in the world. So somebody thought up a big number and perhaps it grew until now the number of Jews killed is six million. We have control of the news media and that is the great difference. Otherwise your people could tell YOUR big lie.




    https://rense.com/general66/rosen.htm





    Erkki Hautamäki's upcoming book deals with Post-WW2 based upon secret documents.

    Some excerpts are already posted online:


    He raises questions about:

    - Allied's bombed Dresden civilians
    - Why the concentration camps were re-named
    - Why Unicef, the organization founded to help all children, who had suffered in European wars, except German children, who were excluded from Unicef's program, children who starved to death - due to "humanitarian" solutions?


    He also writes in a very respectful manner about the German POWs and German civilians, who were murdered in millions.

    He reminds, that despite the propaganda, 1,7 million Russian POWs died, because the maintenance crashed and they were already starving after the battles. The biggest reason for their deaths was the Red Army's strategy to schorch the earth. Almost all deaths took place in the beginning of the war-chaos - and far away from Germany, when there was suddenly millions of Russian POWs.

    But the German civilians were murdered after the war. Millions were murdered, almost 10 million German civilians.

    According to his researches and documents, only hundreds of thousands died in the holocaust, but Sionists from United States and Soviet Union murdered millions of Germans.

    He also points out, that deaths in the holocaust haven't even been confrimed as deliberate, whereas the war was started for the destruction of German people."
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  • Although my main academic focus was theoretical physics, I always had a very strong interest in history as well, especially that of the Classical Era. Trying to extract the true pattern of events from a collection of source material that was often fragmentary, unreliable, and contradictory was a challenging intellectual exercise, testing my analytical ability....
  • @Stan d Mute

    And you think you are sime judge of humour!?
     
    Well I do judge your spelling to be hilarious.

    I thought at first you might have been expressing American isolationist mirth at those of us in the Anglosphere whose spelling wasn’t Webstered. But then I see what a modern child you are. What a good giggle one can get with nothing to feed on but a typo.

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  • Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia...
  • @skrik

    gives no encouragement to the conspiracy theorists who think governments or government agencies arranged it
     
    Ma-a-ate. Who [the hell] else? Look above, to the discussion of cui bono. That's only a part of this whole:

    At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

    The destruction of both MH370 and MH17 could *only* have been carried out by 'persons unknown,' enabled if not actually employed by one or more [covert] govt. agencies. Simply nobody else has either means or motive. 'Losing' one plane may have been 'unfortunate,' but losing both looks like 'extreme carelessness' - or an outright conspiracy = not accidents. Yes, there was a case, of a co-pilot deliberately crashing a passenger jet, but that was 'the exception that proves the rule?' The headline article 'hints' at some black-hats who are known to perpetrate vicious, murdering atrocities [try the West's aggression against Iraq, Libya, Syria almost, Iran 'in the queue;' millions murdered, whole countries destroyed]. Here's a good old Aussie word: Form. And the so-far 'finest' form was demonstrated at 9/11, closely followed by USS Liberty, not to mention JFK etc.. Q: Why do you *again* try to defend the worst of the worst? They are not *my* friends, why 'suck up' to them as yours?

    I am not in the business of defending any one theory or team. I like attacking bad arguments.

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    • Replies: @Biff

    I like attacking bad arguments.
     
    Give yourself a spanking.
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  • @Vojkan
    Maybe if you did some research, widely available on the Internet, you.would.know how a Buk operates. It just wouldnt fit yout narrative you hasbara troll. So in lack of arguments, you resort to ad hominem. The reality is you are full of bullshit. The other reality is that contrary to armchair warriors of yous species, who get their knowledge from.Wikipedia, I have actually worked on military peojects.

    I too have worked on military projects but, unlike you, I don’t expect to have my expertise accepted because I say I have learned things from the Internet that I can’t even specify and lay open for critical appraisal.

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    • Replies: @Vojkan
    Oh really? Then you should know that a Buk doesn't strike at the cockpit but rather sprays the fuselage from above. You should also know that the holes in the cockpit don't match shrapnel made of beryllium, the holes are too big and thtt the distribution of the holes doesn't match either. You are just a pathetic ukranian or hasbara or polish troll with a pathological hatred for anything Russian. Wizard of bullshit.
    , @NoseytheDuke
    No doubt you were called in on a military project that was attempting to bore people to death, but the project was later abandoned after the resulting deaths proved to be unduly slow and painful.
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  • @FB
    You're confusing things here...

    The claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire...[incidentally the same kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]...

    The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type...which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey...

    Specifically...the DSB says the characteristic 'bowtie' shrapnel holes observed in the recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead...

    They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1...

    Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be fitted with the 'bowtie' warhead...

    Here is the DSB final report of October 2015...

    On page 132 we have this...

    '...it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile...'
     
    There is the problem right there...The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is 'normally' fitted to the 9M38M1 missile...but 'but is known to be also installed on the 9M38'...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/5l2y1szp9/MH17_DSB.jpg

    The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey...the right shows the response of the DSB...which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source...page 132...

    '...According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice, both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead...'
     
    So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims...and in this dilemma, the DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source...

    And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the Ukraine military industry...

    In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation agency that is supposed to be 'professional' as these agencies typically are...

    And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for years...having been long ago replaced by updated versions...

    OMG I should have been saluting. You represent here “the highest sources from the Russian Federation”.

    I have answered this above.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    You mean, the facts are irrelevant because they are "ethnically impure" (came from a Russain manufacturer? This certainly settles the case.
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  • @FB

    '...the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?..'
     
    Again you are garbling known facts...there was never any Russian 'satellite photo'...it was in fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time...

    The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch...but curiously it was deemed 'not usable' due to 'formatting issues'...apparently this has something to do with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West...which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous...

    Nothing to do with radar. I’m sorry if you think I should be talking about something you want me to be talking about instead of what I was actually talking about.

    It’s past history but one of the Russian contributions early on to obfuscation was apparently to produce a really dumb fake photo which purported to show a fighter firing a missile at an airliner from in front. Nothing more perhaps than what dumb amateur enthusiasts might try to foist on to this UR site in aid of their team. And my point, which you don’t seem to have noticed, was that at least this Russian version didn’t have anything to do with canons or machine guns that some obfuscators have been throwing into the pot.

    Let me take this opportunity to try our some simple propositions with at least some cumulative relevance.

    1. The guilty, whether of crime or embarrassing error, are likely to lie

    2. A quick defensive lie about an embarrassing accident after the US and EU have jumped down one’s throat is more likely than an elaborate set of lies about a complicated false flag operation. OK not very weighty unless combined with

    3. The likelihood of Russia providing a BUK to the rebels whose towns had been bombed is as likely as the US providing Kurds and other as anti-Assad forces in Syria with serious weapons – in short a virtual certainty with equal disregard to legality.

    4. Just added in… It is clear from the widely separated plane parts that MH17 came apart with the cockpit coming away from the wings and fuselage as a result of the initial blast. Not consistent with canon or machine gun bullets is it?

    So what’s the problem about at least accepting that the simplest answer is the most probable?

    I see that the word of the Russian designer of the BUK about what sort of missile could have been fired by this or that BUK model is for some reason taken as weighty. Unless he was cross-examined while living outside Russia that seems naive. A reference to a Kiev research institute as “political” is also naive too as disclosing partisanship. And it ignores the likelihood that the DSB was not just relying on such a body as authoritative but has been able to discuss its contribution in depth as was its duty.

    FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don’t know whether that has any legs.

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    • Replies: @Bierstiefel
    Where is this photo presented as evidence by the Russians?

    Could you provide a link?
    , @skrik
    1. Der.

    2. No; your projection. The ones perpetrating the outrage would most likely [premeditation] have their story 'straight;' in your own words, Russia probably went something like: 'OMG! What animals would do such a thing!'

    3. No; Russia is not playing 'the great game' that FUKUSIL oh so obviously are.

    4. https://www.freiburger-nachrichten.ch/sites/default/files/styles/lead_image/public/images/sda/20140725113318372.jpg

    An interesting bit is the nicely circular, both entry and exit, 'wounds.' Of course, no 'chain of custody' exists, and the piece could have been physically 'post processed.' The task of evaluation belongs to an honest, properly constituted enquiry. Haw, again; have you not heard: Don't start an inquiry you can't control? Lesson learned, latest with Warren et al..


    FWIW I recall reading somewhere that the Russians had taken the trouble to ensure that the BUK missile launcher and missiles they provided were the same as those the Ukrainians had. I don’t know whether that has any legs.
     
    Haw the last for now; were you paid for that, or just made it up out of 'whole cloth?'
    , @FB

    '...Nothing to do with radar...'
     
    Sorry kid...like I said the ONLY official claim [ie from the Russian govt, not from any third parties] regarding a second plane in the sky at the time of the incident is the radar data I mentioned...

    This radar data was handed over to the Dutch, but has been declared by the JIT as 'not usable' due to formatting issues, exactly as I said...here is a Dutch news report from 2017...

    And the google translation from the Dutch...

    '...Kiev - Radar records transmitted by Russia have not helped Dutch investigators investigate the launch of a Malaysian passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.

    The data was delivered in October in a format that deviated from international standards, said a prosecutor spokesman on Saturday in Amsterdam.

    "More information is needed to understand the importance of radar images," he says.

    Russia had handed over the data - shortly after the publication of a report in September 2016, in which Dutch Special Investigators had blamed Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines' MH17 flight...'
     
    I think this pretty much drives home the last nail in your coffin of BS and obfuscation...
    , @annamaria
    Amazing. The Unz review has a twin of Elliot Higgins among the discussants. Though the twin (WoO) is able to do a more nuanced propaganda than the hapless "expert" from Atlantic Council.
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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    You really are an idiot. (A) is just pedantry (typical) and (B) is just deception, as the point is, known to whom?

    Why do you say “the [sic] black box” when you claim to know that there are two different ones that are both important?

    The contents are known to the DSB investigators and the British technicians who first dealt with getting the recorded material from the boxes. Have you not read the DSB report?

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    As usual you’re lying through your teeth. There is nothing in the DSB report but their summary of the contents:

    http://www.buran.ru/MH17/report-mh17-crash-en.pdf

    (FB’s link doesn’t seem completely accessible.) The un-redacted contents either exonerate the Russians or implicate the Ukrainians, and at any rate the Americans can’t lie about the contents. (Which is any the Anglo-American media switched tunes in the summer of 2014, from saying the black boxes would be critical to dismissing their significance.)
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  • @FB

    '...You seem to be unaware that most airlines were still overflying East Ukraine and that hundreds did that day...'
     
    Why do you insist on talking about things of which you obviously know nothing...?

    Read the DSB report...I already gave a link to the 279 page document...


    '...Eight other operators already stopped flying over the eastern part of Ukraine in March and April, 2014...'
     
    There were a number of NOTAMs [notices to airmen] issued by several national aviation authorities for this ...including from Ukraine, Russia, the US and others...

    The DSB investigators gathered all data on flights through the Dnipopetrovsk FIR [flight information region] from Eurocontrol, the ATC authority for Europe...

    However the Dnipo FIR covers a very large area encompassing a number of airways...MH17 was flying on L980...right over the conflict zone...they didn't have to do this...

    The airline operator chooses the flight plan and they do this for the most direct route to save fuel [called a great circle route because the earth is round]...but deviations from the route are standard...due to any number of circumstances...the fact that there were notams for months about the fighting in this particular area did cause eight out of 16 operators interviewed by the DSB to stop flying there...

    Malaysian chose not to...and thus the resulting recommendation in the DSB for operators to be more careful about flying through conflict areas...

    My internet problems spare you a longer reply. While you seem to have done a bit of homework I think you are trying too hard – not a good look if one doesn’t want to appear as a partisan with a dodgy case to make**. For instance it is pretty rich to accuse me of writing of things U know nothing about when you proceed to make errors of both logic and fact on an important isssue.

    Yes some airlines were already avoiding the airspace, even above 32,000 feet above Eastern Ukraine. So what? The point was that there were many that were not and that was a reason for not allowing MH17 to fly higher. (There’s your logical error nailed in case I need to spell it out).

    As to the numbers of airliners flying over that war zone on that day, doesn’t the DSB report you cite give the figures? Here is one link where you will find the number for the day was 160!

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357880

    If you want to check it also gives a link to the Planefinder site.

    ** I have no dog in the fight and no case to make because I want it to be true. Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun :-)

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    • Replies: @FB

    '...Consider me as merely thinking up some of the questions counsel might put to his own expert witnesses to make sure they are not going to be shot down under cross examination. For fun...'
     
    Sure thing, Perry Mason...LOL...btw I see you have turned this thread into the 'Wizard Spamfest'...nice work...

    For the sake of the others here I will proceed to dismantle your hot air balloon...

    Here's what that BBC article you linked to says...


    '...The airspace over eastern Ukraine was busy with commercial flights that day - 160 planes flew over the region...'
     
    Now here is the rest of the story...for those who are actually qualified commercial pilots, that sentence is meaningless...yes 160 aircraft flew over the Dnipopetrovsk FIR that day...a region more than half the size of Germany...only a small fraction of which region is the actual conflict area...

    Here is a look at the airspace of Ukraine, showing the four FIRs that cover the country...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/x1tonupnh/Ukraine_FIRs.jpg


    Notice the geographic size of the Dnipro FIR [UKDV]...comparable to the size of the entire neighboring country of Romania [230,000 square km and which incidentally has one single FIR covering its entire territory]...

    Notice also the UKDV FIR is subdivided into four sectors...only the most eastern one being the area of Donbass, and even this chunk of airspace is much bigger than the Donbass itself...here's another map showing the Dnipro FIR and the location of the city of Donetsk...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/99kdcjl4d/Ukraine_FIRs.jpg


    Now here is a look at the Eurocontrol high altitude aeronautical chart for this area...notice the dozens of airways criss-crossing it...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/wvfzkx8ul/Dnipro_FIR_High_Altitude_Chart.jpg


    The dashed green lines demarcate the Dnipro FIR boundary...and the small black lines are the airways, which are the ATC 'highways' for aircraft traffic...


    Here is the area of interest on the same chart but zoomed to see the detail, including the airway designations...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/od6jgxxal/Dnipro_FIR_High_Altitude_Chart_Zoom_markup.jpg


    The yellow circle highlights the L980 airway designation on the chart, on which MH17 was flying...the orange circle is the approximate spot where the aircraft came down...here is the illustration from the DSB report, which omits the other airways for simplicity...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/yoiw95u0d/DSB_L980_Airway.jpg


    So we can see that there are literally dozens of airways in use over the eastern Ukraine...and this is indeed busy airspace for commercial transport...so saying that 160 flights flew over eastern Ukraine that day tells us nothing about how many aircraft flow over this actual route...ie airway L980...big difference...

    Another case of the MSM using selective information to bamboozle a non-technical layman audience and spin a narrative that has nothing to do with anything...

    Also noteworthy is that MH17 was a daily route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur...and its normal route was not on L980, but 200 miles to the south...

    There are many more technical details here to discuss, including the altitude issue [the Ukrainians had closed the airspace in the region up to 32,000 ft]...and I will be glad to explain the technicalities of what is in the DSB report for those that may be interested...as this type of document is geared toward aviation professionals and may not be fully understandable to the layman...

    As for our friend Wizard...may I suggest that he stop making a spectacle of himself here...

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  • @jilles dykstra
    It was ordered to fly lower.
    This may confirm the theory that Ukraine abused the plane as shield for a bomber, and it may confirm that an Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down.
    Ukrainian fighters have difficulty in flying at the normal height of a passenger plane
    As far as I know no explanation was ever given

    Why do you say it was ordered to “fly lower”. My understanding is that the pilots sought permission to fly higher to improve the economics of the flight but were refused because of the number of other planes in the same air traffic control area. You seem to be unaware that most airlines were still overflying East Ukraine and that hundreds did that day.

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    • Replies: @FB

    '...You seem to be unaware that most airlines were still overflying East Ukraine and that hundreds did that day...'
     
    Why do you insist on talking about things of which you obviously know nothing...?

    Read the DSB report...I already gave a link to the 279 page document...


    '...Eight other operators already stopped flying over the eastern part of Ukraine in March and April, 2014...'
     
    There were a number of NOTAMs [notices to airmen] issued by several national aviation authorities for this ...including from Ukraine, Russia, the US and others...

    The DSB investigators gathered all data on flights through the Dnipopetrovsk FIR [flight information region] from Eurocontrol, the ATC authority for Europe...

    However the Dnipo FIR covers a very large area encompassing a number of airways...MH17 was flying on L980...right over the conflict zone...they didn't have to do this...

    The airline operator chooses the flight plan and they do this for the most direct route to save fuel [called a great circle route because the earth is round]...but deviations from the route are standard...due to any number of circumstances...the fact that there were notams for months about the fighting in this particular area did cause eight out of 16 operators interviewed by the DSB to stop flying there...

    Malaysian chose not to...and thus the resulting recommendation in the DSB for operators to be more careful about flying through conflict areas...

    , @jilles dykstra
    It was reported here that the plane was ordered to fly lower.
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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    As soon as I saw this topic I knew the Whiz would be here with his usual avalanche of pretentious bullshit. And sure enough, like a fungus in a jock strap that hasn’t been washed in three weeks, he’s proliferating.

    To his many non-skills can be added lack of reading comprehension, since I specified the *contents* of the black boxes. The Russians could safely turn them over since they knew the Americans could not lie about what was on them. So as usual, nothing you say here is of any consequence. But thanks is due for being relatively brief for once.

    Nice try but your revealing quantity of clumsy persiflage draws attention to your error which blatant chutzpah couldn’t cover. You said “Still awaiting the contents of the [sic] black box” but
    (a) there are two black boxes (for data and for voice), and
    (b) the contents are well known.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    You really are an idiot. (A) is just pedantry (typical) and (B) is just deception, as the point is, known to whom?
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  • Back in Junior High School I became an avid war-gamer, and was fascinated by the military history of the past, especially World War II, the most titanic conflict ever recorded. However, although I much enjoyed reading the detailed accounts of the battles of that war, especially on the Eastern Front that largely determined its outcome,...
  • Fascinating Ron. Before I send it on to historian friends and an old IMF hand who was intrigued by revival of memories of Harry Dexter White stories I would like to ask a couple of tidy up questions.

    You said Russell Grenfell expressed objection to the headlined newspaper accounts of horrific tortures of German prisoners at war crimes trials to voerce confessions. But it is not clear whether he objected to the torture or the publicising of it. I infer thatypu think he believed it occurred.

    The other question concerns numbers of Germans who died above the expected number beteeen 1945 andv1950. Is the figure of 10 million credible? I suppose it might include ethnic Germans who wouldn’t have been counted in Germany’s 69.8 million in 1940 that I found here:

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/28/curt-schilling/schilling-throws-wild-pitch-nazi-stat/

    From that I found this heavyweight site that I suppose might give a comprehensive picture of German demographics over the last couple of centuries but decided to pass on the research:

    https://figshare.com/articles/German_Time_Series_Dataset_1834_2012/1450809

    I toss in a figure of 2 million German births in 1913 which can fairly be regarded as suggesting a much lower figure for Germany 1940 to 1950 snd then count the German official number of military deaths at 4.3 million and strategic bombing deaths of civilians at 350,000 to 500,000 all by 1945 and those POWs who can be counted as starved to death by Eisenhower OR the Soviets unless one wants to double count and I think I’m asking you to find some numbers which make the difference between 70 -4.3 – 0.35 – 5** and whatever seems a plausible figure for the number of Germans in 1950 (which has left me confused) amount to 10 million or whatever you may prefer as a figure.

    ** making the guess that births exceeded natural deaths from 1940 to 1950 by 5 million after a look at birth and death rates in the 1930s.

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  • Four years ago, on 17 July 2014, in the midst of a civil war raging in eastern Ukraine, Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was destroyed with all 298 passengers and crew. On 25 May last, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) entrusted with the criminal investigation of the downing and composed of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia...
  • @jilles dykstra
    In a Dutch talkshow the chairman of the Dutch airline pilots organisation Benno Baksteen mentioned casually that aboard MH370 there were two groups of Chinese technicians specialised in making planes invisible for radar.
    Nowhere in the media this was picked up, Benno Baksteen never again was on tv, and, as far as I know, he's no longer chairman.
    My theory on MH17: control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, this is possible since early 2001.
    It was directed direction Antarctica, until is crashed, lack of fuel.
    The second pilot tried to use his mobile phone to make contact, however, this is not possible, a passenger plane flies simply to fast, there was a connection, but before he could say anything the plane was too far away.
    Also one of the Sept 11 problems.
    So, following the old question 'who benefitted', it is clear for me who the suspect is.

    As I said: have you been drinking? You have confused MH17 with MH 370. Spare us your garbage.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    No confusion whatsoever.
    MH17 made possible the sanctions, MH370 killed two groups of Chinese technicians on making planes invisible to radar;
    MH17 was destroyed in mid air, why and how, we do not know, MH370 flew direction Antarctica until fuel ran out.
    My theory on MH370, control of the plane was taken from the crew from outside, as has been possible with modern planes since a short time before Sept 11.
    On Sept 11, why the, in my opinion original plan to use the four planes for attacks failed, I do not know, we never will know.
    Whatever the case, any aircraft specialist can explain to you that it is not al all difficult to control a modern plane from outside.
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  • @jilles dykstra
    " DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. "
    A weird compelling case.
    They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it.
    Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.
    I am not in the least convinced.
    The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions.
    About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.
    But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide.
    If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
    If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done.
    But a BUk flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
    Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ?
    All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc

    Have you been drinking? I am appalled that you, a Dutchman, hasn’t a clue about the difference between the Dutch Safety Board’s technical investigation and the separate criminal one of which you seem to be only vaguely aware.

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  • @Baron
    An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.

    On the MH17:

    Why don't people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?

    The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness.

    Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

    Why do you assume it was a crime I.e. a deliberate act to which the question cui bono might apply?

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  • @Anonymous
    Excellent article discussing geopolitics - especially the oil and gas aspects which the major media never does.

    As far as the actual shooting down of MH17, I am of the opinion that a Russian military unit did it. However, it is more accurately described as a tragic accident that happened in a war zone, very similar to the US shooting down of Iranian Air 655 in 1988 killing all 290 on-board. Accidents happen.

    Yes, but is it actually good on the oil and gas aspects? The fact that he is somewhat Marxistish in his approach doesn’t mean he isn’t credible and in fact right, but do you know that he is?

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  • @Beefcake the Mighty
    Still awaiting the contents of the black box, which of course are known to the Russians as well since the rebels recovered it. Revealing that this aspect of the event is still under wraps. And the Ukraine had no business being on any investigative commission here.

    Why do people make positive statements about such important matters as the black boxes without checking readily available sources? Surprisingly both black boxes were handed over and sent by the Dutch Safety Board to British laboratories before the end of July 2014. OK my most vivid memory of the evidence is from a recent documentary but, as this version doesn’t even try to make out that Russian backed rebels hid the black boxes, I am happy to accept it. It is interesting that there was apparently just enough difference in the timing of noises from the explosion reaching the four cockpit microphones for the inference to be made independently of physical evidence (like shrapnel in the captain!) that the explosion was above the nose of the plane and to the left of the cockpit.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    As soon as I saw this topic I knew the Whiz would be here with his usual avalanche of pretentious bullshit. And sure enough, like a fungus in a jock strap that hasn’t been washed in three weeks, he’s proliferating.

    To his many non-skills can be added lack of reading comprehension, since I specified the *contents* of the black boxes. The Russians could safely turn them over since they knew the Americans could not lie about what was on them. So as usual, nothing you say here is of any consequence. But thanks is due for being relatively brief for once.
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  • @Mike P
    Except that parts of the wreckage of MH17 were riddled with regularly sized bullet holes. MH17 was shot at (and probably downed) with the on-board guns of a fighter plane.

    I have seen what purported to be the Dutch Safety Board’s exhibition of the reassembled parts and there was no way that the holes could be said to be bullet holes rather than those of shrapnel (of which some, allegedly characteristic of the BUK missile, was found in the cockpit and in the captain’s body). So where does your version come from and how does it stack up against those who say a fighter fired cannon shells not bullets and the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?

    Also, doesn’t it strike you as very strange
    (a) that nothing was said in the cockpit in any way reflecting the approach of a fighter or a missile fired by it, or its firing at the larger plane’s cockpit?
    (b) that someone could get a Ukrainian fighter pilot to shoot down a civilian aircraft, or that, if some psychopath or drug addicted pilot could have been found to do it, no one else would have known and talked?

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    • Replies: @FB
    You're confusing things here...

    The claim of cannon fire markings on the cockpit section of the fuselage was made by retired German pilot Peter Haisenko who simply viewed photos of the wreckage found online and noticed the entry and exit holes that seemed to suggest cannon fire...[incidentally the same kind of 'analysis' we have seen from amateur 'investigators' Bellingcat]...

    The REAL issue is the fact that the DSB, which concluded that it was a Buk missile that hit the plane, seems to have made a fatal error in terms of the missile and warhead type...which do not match, according to the Buk manufacturer Almaz Antey...

    Specifically...the DSB says the characteristic 'bowtie' shrapnel holes observed in the recovered fuselage wreckage are characteristic of the 9N314M warhead...

    They further conclude that this warhead can be fitted to both the older generation missile, type 9M38..AND the newer 9M38M1...

    Almaz Antey says this is not the case and that ONLY the M1 variant of the missile can be fitted with the 'bowtie' warhead...

    Here is the DSB final report of October 2015...

    On page 132 we have this...

    '...it is noted that the shapes of the pre-formed fragments found in the wreckage and the bodies of the crew members in the cockpit, bow-tie and cubes, are only found in the 9N314M warhead (see figure 56). The 9N314M warhead can be fitted to the 9M38M1 missile...'
     
    There is the problem right there...The DSB also states that the the 9N314M warhead is 'normally' fitted to the 9M38M1 missile...but 'but is known to be also installed on the 9M38'...


    https://s20.postimg.cc/5l2y1szp9/MH17_DSB.jpg

    The left side shows the comments by Almaz Antey...the right shows the response of the DSB...which acknowledges in their report that they got their info from an interesting source...page 132...

    '...According to the Kyiv Institute for Forensic Expertise of the Ministry of Justice, both the 9M38 and 9M38M1 missiles can carry the 9N314M warhead...'
     
    So we have here the situation that a Ukraine political source is telling the DSB information that contradicts what the weapons manufacturer claims...and in this dilemma, the DSB takes the word of the Ukraine political source...

    And there is also the further possibility that the 9M38 missile which never came with the bowtie warhead from the factory, could in fact be retrofitted with such, for example by the Ukraine military industry...

    In any case, this does not look good for the DSB, which is unfortunate for an aviation agency that is supposed to be 'professional' as these agencies typically are...

    And we further note that that the highest sources from the Russian Federation have stated that the missile identified by the DSB has been out of service in the RF armed forces for years...having been long ago replaced by updated versions...
    , @FB

    '...the Russian version – admittedly supported by a badly faked satellite photo – of a fighter firing a missile at MH17?..'
     
    Again you are garbling known facts...there was never any Russian 'satellite photo'...it was in fact Russian ATC radar that identified the second aircraft flying in the area at the time...

    The curious part here is that the Russians gave the radar data to the Dutch...but curiously it was deemed 'not usable' due to 'formatting issues'...apparently this has something to do with the supposed incompatibility of Russian radar data printouts to what is used in the West...which, for someone well versed in these matters, frankly sounds preposterous...
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  • @Baron
    An excellent, thoroughly researched, well articulated narrative. A piece of journalistic investigation worthy of a George Orwell prize, Mr. Kees van der Pijl, thank you.

    On the MH17:

    Why don't people learn from what has always worked, never failed, in the past?

    The Romans, the Anglo-Saxon legal system's based on theirs, argued that each and every crime investigation must begin with the key question 'cui bono'. It's the time tested pointer to the perpetrator of every crime ever committed, and rightly so. Someone has a motive, if successfully translated into a deed of evil, the motive furnishes an outcome that's beneficial to that someone, otherwise committing any act of wrongdoing would be only that of madness.

    Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there's nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It's either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

    Unless one were to argue that Putin is indeed mad, there’s nothing in this tragedy that would point a finger at the Russians. It’s either some other player or players involved, or an accident, a mistake, an error of judgement on the part of the warring combatants rather than a deliberate act of murder.

    Nobody familiar with the situation thinks that Putin or anybody higher up ordered the tragic downing of the airliner. Neither did any Ukrainian higher ups. It is what it looked like originally. A misstep by some gung ho Russian backed separatists. There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate ‘heroes’ on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane. Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology.

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    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Since when the Israeli citizen Kolomojsky is a" gung ho Russian backed separatist?"
    http://redpilltimes.com/leaked-email-by-dutch-diplomat-on-mh17-says-separatists-do-not-have-ability-to-take-down-a-plane-kolomoisky-being-set-up-for-fall/
    https://nodisinfo.com/hacked-emails-prove-zionist-ihor-kolomoiskly-mh17/
    https://southfrontdutch.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/de-man-achter-mh17-ihor-kolomoyskyi/
    , @Skeptikal
    "Sorry, but this author needs to rewrite this fantastical piece of pro-Russian false flag conspiracy mythology."

    I don't think the author says anything about false flags.
    He discusses the uses to which the incident could be put to use.
    Read the article before commenting!
    , @FB

    '...There was even gloating by some of these unfortunate ‘heroes’ on internet social media taking credit for the downing of a Ukrainian transport plane...'
     
    I had intended to post this comment as a reply to your above twisting of facts...

    Nobody ever 'gloated' and as you can see from my links to the Western news coverage of the video of rebels arriving on the scene...with a fire truck and dousing the flames...it is clear that what is written in the story does not match what the English subtitles on the video show...

    In other words...the MSM is caught in a blatant lie yet again...which you seek to perpetuate without anything to back it up...so here's your chance...go ahead and produce the evidence of this 'gloating' you refer to...
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  • @Vojkan
    The impacts on the MH17 cockpit don't match the impacts of a Buk missile. The impacts on the fuselage don't match the operational mode of a Buk missile. Maybe it was a Buk missile, it's just seems highly unlikely.

    The not matching is something you say because of your specialist qualifications and because you have examined the holes made in the cockpit how?

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    • Replies: @Vojkan
    Maybe if you did some research, widely available on the Internet, you.would.know how a Buk operates. It just wouldnt fit yout narrative you hasbara troll. So in lack of arguments, you resort to ad hominem. The reality is you are full of bullshit. The other reality is that contrary to armchair warriors of yous species, who get their knowledge from.Wikipedia, I have actually worked on military peojects.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @FB

    '...MH370′s crash has been almost definitively ascribed to the Captain’s planned murder-suicide...'
     
    Says who...Mickey and Donald...?

    There are only 'unofficial disappearance theories'...since the wreckage has never been found, and no air transport accident investigation body has ever issued any kind of report with any kind of finding of accident cause...

    The accident remains under investigation...

    Air accident investigation is a serious business that is NOT conducted by the MSM, the FBI, freelance authors, or any other such entities which have been squawking about wild blue yonder 'theories'...for various reasons known only to themselves [and their bank account]...

    Such investigations are carried out strictly by national air safety agencies [such as NTSB in the US] in strict accordance with Annex 13 of the ICAO, a UN body...

    The Malaysian ministry of transport issued a 586 page preliminary report on the known facts in 2015, which does not even attempt to ascertain any possible cause, since there is simply no evidence to investigate...it simply states all the mundane details of the flight that are known facts...

    The Australian transportation safety board also became involved because the flight may have crashed in waters within the Australian search and rescue zone...the ATSB issued a brief 15 page report in October 2015...

    '...An analysis of radar data and subsequent satellite communication (SATCOM) system signalling messages placed the aircraft in the Australian search and rescue zone on an arc in the southern part of the Indian Ocean.

    This arc was considered to be the location close to where the aircraft’s fuel was exhausted...'
     
    So what little evidence there is [some sat tracking of the flight and a couple of pieces of debris recovered off Mozambique] indicates the aircraft may have flown until it ran out of fuel...a scenario consistent with a hypoxia event...ie the aircraft cabin pressurization malfunctioning, resulting in loss of oxygen and loss of consciousness of all on board...

    Similar such events have happened in the past, including the crash of the bizjet carrying golfer Payne Stewart, which was actually intercepted by Air National Guard F16s as it flew on autopilot, with all on board unconscious, and escorted until it ran out of fuel and crashed...

    No doubt I overstated the re as sons for coming to the conclusion that it was a deliberate murder suicide but I am pleased that your careful account gives no encouragement to the conspiracy theorists who think governments or government agencies arranged it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @skrik

    gives no encouragement to the conspiracy theorists who think governments or government agencies arranged it
     
    Ma-a-ate. Who [the hell] else? Look above, to the discussion of cui bono. That's only a part of this whole:

    At any crime-scene, one must consider means, motive and opportunity, but a more complete list includes premeditation, presence, any modus operandi and cui bono?

    The destruction of both MH370 and MH17 could *only* have been carried out by 'persons unknown,' enabled if not actually employed by one or more [covert] govt. agencies. Simply nobody else has either means or motive. 'Losing' one plane may have been 'unfortunate,' but losing both looks like 'extreme carelessness' - or an outright conspiracy = not accidents. Yes, there was a case, of a co-pilot deliberately crashing a passenger jet, but that was 'the exception that proves the rule?' The headline article 'hints' at some black-hats who are known to perpetrate vicious, murdering atrocities [try the West's aggression against Iraq, Libya, Syria almost, Iran 'in the queue;' millions murdered, whole countries destroyed]. Here's a good old Aussie word: Form. And the so-far 'finest' form was demonstrated at 9/11, closely followed by USS Liberty, not to mention JFK etc.. Q: Why do you *again* try to defend the worst of the worst? They are not *my* friends, why 'suck up' to them as yours?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @anon

    As I said above, who did it and how remains obscure, although there are several pursued by people familiar with local circumstances, or revealed by insiders who know who which military assets were operating that day—but all that remains inconclusive.
     
    This article is supposed to be about why the airliner was shot down, and this confused garble is all the author has to say about the crucial event?

    1. If the evidence supports the claim that the Russians did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

    2. If the evidence tends to show that Urkaine or the U.S. did it, then that is important and the author should discuss that in detail.

    3. If the evidence is indeed inconclusive, then that is important and the author should discuss the evidence in detail to show that it is inconclusive.


    The facts matter, but not to this writer.

    Indeed, after noting the Marxistish approach I wondered how reliable he would be on key facts if tested. It wasn’t encouraging to find him writing that the Dutch Safety Board’s report could be “conveniently [sic] dismissed”. As the critical account of a presentation by him that I shall post below notes he doesn’t seem to know the difference between the Dutch Safety Board’s technical investigation and report and the Joint Investigation Team’s work on the criminal aspects of the case. That is pretty elementary and leaves him looking like someone who could only wave his hands when it is pointed out that the DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named.

    He seems to be a retired professor keen to be noticed so his air fares will be paid and his book with a title which also mentions MH17 will sell.

    Anyway here is a useful critique slightly truncated from

    http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/presentation-van-kees-van-der-pijl-on-ukraine-and-mh17/

    showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is

    What happened to flight MH17?

    Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
    Posted on September 23, 2017 by admin in Uncategorized // 4 Comments

    [MORE]

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    Kees van der Pijl is a Dutch political scientist who is emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Sussex. At September 19, 2017 he delivered a presentation in Dutch language at Pletterij Debatcafe.

    Van der Pijl ‘s ideas about what happened to MH17 are similar to those of MH17 truther Joost Niemoller and a guy called @HectorReban (not his real name). Both are extreme conspiracy thinkers who all only look at one side of the story. They all forget to mention the many Russian lies. And are to say the least not very good at telling facts.

    Kees van der Pijl is one of the people who signed a letter addressed to Donald Trump requesting a new independant investigation. The letter was published at the website of Joost Niemoller.

    Others who signed the letter are Karel van Wolferen. I wrote about the nonsense he talked about here. Also former pilot Peter Haisenko signed the letter. My comments on the nonsense by Haisenko here.

    A Dutch politician named Thierry Baudet, who also signed the letter, was criticised early September 2017 by Dutch Minister for Foreign affairs Bert Koenders.

    Graham Phillips (former RT) and Patrick Lancaster, both pro Russian freelance journalists signed the letter as well.

    Van der Pijl was active in a Dutch communistic political party.

    Van der Pijl talked about the history of Ukraine, NATO, BRIC countries and MH17.

    Van der Pijl states in the beginning of his presentation “I have no idea who downed MH7 in contrary to authorities who state the do”

    However during the presentation he mentions he believes Ukraine shot down MH17 with a military jet.

    Van Der Pijl then states a crime also needs a motive. Well, in the first minute of his presentation Van der Pijl makes his first mistake. MH17 was likely a mistake. Mistakes happen. The motive is according Van der Pijl “an important factor”

    Van der Pijl then relates the shotdown of MH17 to the BRIC countries. He talks about Ukraine which wanted to be closer to the West. And he talks about the extension of NATO. He explains the eastern and southern areas of former Russia were added to Ukraine in around 1922.

    Then at 29:00 minutes in the video Van der Pijl states that Ukraine must be seen as main suspect of the downing of MH17 altough he does not know if they indeed did it. They had the means he adds.

    Van der Pijl then states Ukraine got a veto right in two investigations. That is nonsense. The Dutch Safety Board did not have any veto. And in the criminal investigation all JIT countries signed a none disclosure agreement. That is different than a veto right.

    At 31:34 Van der Pijl states Ukraine immediately had an statement about the shotdown. “only these were three different explanations”.

    “Poroshenko stated it was an accident. Later he stated it was a terror attack”. “A minister for foreign affairs stated it was a missile from Russia handed over to the separatists and the leader of military in Ukraine Andriy Parubiy stated it was a missile launched from Russia”.

    I have not found anything on internet confirming these statements by Van der Pijl. In fact, Poroshenko at July 17, 2014 stated

    “We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism,” Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko said. The Ukraine Foreign Ministry says the plane was shot down by a Russian Buk missile.

    Around 33:00 questions by the audience are answered.

    At 36:00 Van der Pijl says money of foreign companies which flow through the Netherlands for tax avoiding reasons is criminal. “Dutch Minister for Finance should be prosecuted”

    At 39:00 he starts to talk about his appearance for the Tweede Kamer commissie for Foreign Affairs. Van der Pijl states himself that was not a very impressive presentation. At that time he missed facts and was intimidated by the members of Parliament. Afterwards he was approached by bloggers active on MH17 (likely Hector Reban). They gave him information and warned him for Russian propaganda.

    He then talks about ‘tanks with surface to air missile’ on it. Even the words ‘BUK TELAR’ is not a single time used by Van der Pijl in his presentation. Indicating he does not know what he is talking about.

    Van der Pijl then states a child aged 11 is able to make a fake video of a telephone call. Van der Pijl then talks about the presence of lithium batteries in the aircraft. Far more than mentioned in the DSB final report. He doubts this is the cause of the accident.

    Van der Pijl then calls Joustra, head of DSB, a big mouth.

    At 43:36 a conversation starts about Ukraine aircraft using civil aircraft as human shield. Radar recordings of both sides are missing.

    Van der Pijl then states civil aircraft were used as a shield. Civil aircraft were flying at 10 km, military are flying much lower. But when they fly at the same speed as civil aircraft and under it, the military jets cannot be detected by radar. Elsevier described this.

    This is another complete nonsense. Elsevier never published an article confirming aircraft can hide from radar. Radar is able to detect two different objects.

    Van der Pijl states all states failed by not handing over radar data.

    He then states that Russia always offered to hand over information but only if Russia would be involved in the investigation.This was refused.

    Ofcourse this was refused as Russia is the suspect in the criminal investigation by JIT. And Russia did not offer to hand over all radar data. Why at all should there be an offer? Russia should have handed over all radar data. Just like Ukraine had to do.

    Russia was involved in DSB investigation for expertise on radar and BUK systems. Russia did not hand over the requested raw radar data of all radar stations to DSB.

    At 47:45 Van der Pijl states that according his feeling MH17 was not downed by a BUK. A BUK would cause the aircraft to explode in the air. He mentions “benzine”(petrol) lines. (not knowing an aircraft has kerosene as fuel). He thinks MH17 was shot down by an aircraft.

    Dear Kees. You talk nonsense. Even Russian MOD stated there were no other aircraft near MH17.

    He then at around 50:00 states that in his book all shot downs of aircraft by a BUK missile are described. However there are no civil aircraft shot down by a BUK missile except MH17. Only a few cases of shot down of civil aircraft with surface to air missile are known. A Siberia Airlines Tu154 was shot down by a S-200. This post has an overview of damage observered by various weapons.

    He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying. That happened to MH17 as well as it made a wierd curve.

    He states the book by Joost Niemoller “de doofpot (real name de doofpot deal) is still standing as a house. The book is full of tunnelvision. Dutch review of the book here.

    At 54:00 he states the animations by JIT in the september 2016 presentation are cartoons.

    At 57:00 someone asks how it is possible media does not report the same findings as Van der Pijl.

    Van der Pijl then responds that the official narrative is copied by media. Media cannot backtrack the story. A letter written by Van der Pijl was not published in NRC.

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    4 Comments on Presentation van Kees van der Pijl on Ukraine and MH17
    Roman Shein // November 3, 2017 at 5:47 am // Reply
    He states when an aircraft is shot down by an air to air missile aircraft can still be flying.
    – This one is true actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

    niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:16 pm // Reply
    Indeed Roman an aircraft can keep flying after being attacked and struck by an Air-to-Air missile. But that fact itself also demonstrates that MH17 was absolutely not attacked by another aircraft. An Air-to-Air missile would’ve been fired by an aircraft –that aircraft would show up on radar. The missile would have struck an engine. Engines on commercial airliners are actually designed to break off and fall away in the event of an impact or detonation some way smaller than an Air-to-Air missiles 3kg warhead. If an engine had landed in Petropavlivka, the western edge of the debris field, it would be a little harder to rule out an air to air attack. But both engines are present at the Hrabove site. I’ve seen some suggest an Air-to-Air missile might’ve missed the engine and exploded or some combination of Air-to-Air missile and machine gun/canon fire which, besides being silly, remains exceptionally unlikely that such ordinance would detonate or impact at exactly the spot one would expect a large Surface-to-Air radar guided missile to strike –AND produce the kind of damage you could expect to see from a 75Kg warhead such as the simultaneous, instantaneous end of both CVR and FDR. That the Russian MoD, being military people who’d know all this, would still raise and promote this hypothesis as feasible is what has had me convinced since Monday July 21st 2014 that they knew more about how that plane ended up a smouldering wreck in Ukraine than they were letting on.

    niall // November 7, 2017 at 11:23 pm // Reply
    Apologies Marcel – I actually called in to compliment you on a succinct deconstruction of Mr Van der Pijls nonsense. It is mindboggling that someone with such an illogical, unscientific and unacademic tendency to speculate rather than engage in evidence based enquiry could rise to a position of Professor.

    Lena // May 26, 2018 at 5:34 am // Reply
    “International relations” is not a science.

    Leave a comment

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    " DSB made a compelling case that MH17 was brought down by a BUK missile fired by someone not named. "
    A weird compelling case.
    They say they know who did it, a Russian officer, name and photograph have been publicised here, but they've been unable to ask him why he did it.
    Any normal criminal investigation begins with motive, here at the end the motive still is lacking.
    I am not in the least convinced.
    The motive, except when it was an accident, lies in the west, the Netherlands objected most to sanctions.
    About a possible accident, Ukraine seems to have misused overflying passenger planes as shield for its bombers.
    But, the Ukrainian pilot said to have shot down MH17 committed suicide.
    If he did it, he did what a fighter pilot on a illegal mission would have done, target the cockpit from behind, no possibility of an emergency signal.
    If it was a BUK, it did what a fighter pilot would have done.
    But a BUk flies vertical at a speed of 4500 kmh, a passenger plane at some 900.
    Why did not the BUK hit from beneath ?
    All in all, indeed a very compelling case, as the murder of Kennedy, Sept 11, Diana, etc
    , @The Alarmist
    I'm only going to pick on one of your comments:

    "Radar is able to detect two different objects."
     
    Depends on what type of radar you are talking about. ATC radar, which is essentially two-dimensional and heavily dependent on transponder data from the aircraft, particularly the altitude encoded in that signal, would paint the return signal and data of the transponder of MH-17, but a primary return from another aircraft at roughly the same spot on the map, if a primary return was received at all, would be lost in the clutter and no altitude data would be available.

    I recall reading a comment that Kiev claimed that ATC radar was turned off at the time. I also recall a claim that ATC voice data recordings were sequestered and never made available to the public. If true, these claims would suggest guilty minds at work, either covering up a blunder or covering up a false flag.

    I think the author's title is a bit disingenuous: He could have called this, "False Flag or Accident: Why Western Powers had the Means, Motive and Opportunity to Capitalise on the MH-17 Tragedy."
    , @FB
    This is what 'Wizbang' says about the author of this article, who happens to be a respected professor from a respected university...

    '...showing pretty well what a BS artist the author is...
     
    Reminds one of underwear salesman Eliott Higgins calling Prof Ted Postol an 'idiot'...talk about chutzpah...

    Oh and 'Wizbang' says he doesn't have a 'dog in this fight'...yet he is foaming at the mouth all over this thread...pretty pathetic...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @ALCvA
    I don't know what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 nor do I know what happed to Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 on 8 March 2014. Except that my suspicion is aroused that there is a connection with these events and the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal which was established to oversee and investigate complaints from victims of wars and armed conflict in relation to crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other like offences as recognized under International Law.

    In November 2011 the tribunal purportedly exercised universal jurisdiction to try in absentia former US President George W. Bush and former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, convicting both for crimes against peace because of what the tribunal concluded was the unlawful invasion of Iraq.

    In May 2012 after hearing testimony for a week from victims of torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, the tribunal unanimously convicted in absentia former President Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Deputy Assistant Attorneys General John Yoo and Jay Bybee, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former counsellors David Addington and William Haynes II of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. The tribunal referred their findings to the chief prosecutor at the International Court of Justice in the Hague.

    In November 2013, the tribunal convicted State of Israel guilty of genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

    Thus, my conspiratorial mind suspects that there is a connection between the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal's convictions and the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370/MAS370 and Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.

    The problem is that the convictions by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunals are little known and were never reported by the mainstream media.

    So little known that they would have been too inconsequential to explain *anything*. MH370 was full of mostly Chinese passengers returning to China and MH17 had a cabin full of people almost equal unlikely to be the target of assassins. Malaysian Airlines is government owned. Is there any reason for damaging it and, to a minor extent, the Malaysian economy in consequence? It can’t be a warning or it would have to be publicised – and believed. In any event MH370′s crash has been almost definitively ascribed to the Captain’s planned murder-suicide.

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    • Replies: @FB

    '...MH370′s crash has been almost definitively ascribed to the Captain’s planned murder-suicide...'
     
    Says who...Mickey and Donald...?

    There are only 'unofficial disappearance theories'...since the wreckage has never been found, and no air transport accident investigation body has ever issued any kind of report with any kind of finding of accident cause...

    The accident remains under investigation...

    Air accident investigation is a serious business that is NOT conducted by the MSM, the FBI, freelance authors, or any other such entities which have been squawking about wild blue yonder 'theories'...for various reasons known only to themselves [and their bank account]...

    Such investigations are carried out strictly by national air safety agencies [such as NTSB in the US] in strict accordance with Annex 13 of the ICAO, a UN body...

    The Malaysian ministry of transport issued a 586 page preliminary report on the known facts in 2015, which does not even attempt to ascertain any possible cause, since there is simply no evidence to investigate...it simply states all the mundane details of the flight that are known facts...

    The Australian transportation safety board also became involved because the flight may have crashed in waters within the Australian search and rescue zone...the ATSB issued a brief 15 page report in October 2015...

    '...An analysis of radar data and subsequent satellite communication (SATCOM) system signalling messages placed the aircraft in the Australian search and rescue zone on an arc in the southern part of the Indian Ocean.

    This arc was considered to be the location close to where the aircraft’s fuel was exhausted...'
     
    So what little evidence there is [some sat tracking of the flight and a couple of pieces of debris recovered off Mozambique] indicates the aircraft may have flown until it ran out of fuel...a scenario consistent with a hypoxia event...ie the aircraft cabin pressurization malfunctioning, resulting in loss of oxygen and loss of consciousness of all on board...

    Similar such events have happened in the past, including the crash of the bizjet carrying golfer Payne Stewart, which was actually intercepted by Air National Guard F16s as it flew on autopilot, with all on board unconscious, and escorted until it ran out of fuel and crashed...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • I have just spent a couple of days in New York City. Returning to Virginia on Wednesday morning, I had a somewhat strange experience. I cleared through my emails before leaving the hotel and also read through a number of the featured news articles. One, in particular, caught my eye. It described how the Democratic...
  • @Talha
    Actually you made a very specific claim; that the all aid Palestinians have received has been equivalent to the aid that Israel has received from the US in the same time frame.

    Renfro provides stats to show that is wildly off the mark.

    Why don’t you reference some specific numbers that includes all the various sources you are talking about to prove your point - should be fairly straightforward.

    Now if the assertion is; well, they should have been able to build a viable state with the amount of money they are receiving, then that is a separate claim altogether.

    And how the Palestinians are supposed to build a viable state out of the Swiss cheese looking (and worsening every year) occupied territory they live in is beyond comprehension.

    Peace.

    My two main lateral thinking contributions to the solution of the apparently insoluble are
    1. create – with massive subsidies for years – a number of semi-autonomous city states intended to operate as mini Hong Kongs and Singapores;
    2. Create what I have called a single Taxpayer State where – shock, horror, not all citizens are equal in power [OK I know that is already true in Israel but not by the same criteria]. If some additional power were accorded only to those who have been net taxpayers for say 10 years that would surely offset the danger of Palestinians continuing to have much larger families than secular Jews for at least another three generations. Thus a new Upper House of the Knesset could be added with a restricted franchise as used to be commonplace. (It only ended in the state of Victoria in Australia in the 1950s).

    My fantasy possibility used to be that the settlements were being allowed so that the peculiar cultural requirement of the Arabs could be satisfied, namely that they had to be able to claim almost total victory and that removal of settlements (or including them in a Palestinian state) would allow that. While I don’t suppose the productivity and production of the settlements is such that this would be economically unfeasible I can’t see it as ever being politically possible despite the superficially comparable withdrawal from Gaza under Ariel Sharon.

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  • @j2
    "How come assortative mating produced a high IQ upper middle class in England – probably the whole of NW Europe up to about 1914? How come the big caste differences in India? It stands to reason that in many circumstances smart people might breed more survivors than the dim and that it might, as empirical fact, exceed the outbreeding required to purge the dysgenic influence of bad mutations."

    Those were class societies where you married inside the class. I can imagine that under some circumstances eugenic practices can increase IQ and dysgenic can decrease IQ. That is the old eugenic argument. But I guess the dumbest males were always left without mates and women have a preference for intelligence, tall stature and high social standing in men, so that is the direction of sexual selection in humans.

    I remain unconvinced that the Ashkenazi Jews applied eugenic practices so much more than other European people to explain fast increase of IQ, I would imagine they applied it less, since the Jewish population grew fast (=little selection) and already from Antique times they did not expose babies (eugenic practice) but instead had some social help for poor (later by Kahal).

    If you have read the "horror" novel Golem by Gustav Meyrink, you see that at that time there was the opinion that in Jewish ghettos there were lots of outcomes of dysgenic practices, the book foretells the disappearance of ghettos (which was happening) and cleansing the trash.

    I have long assumed that the rise in Ashkenazi IQ probably ended by about 1650 when Jewish fertility outran the availability of relatively high IQ ways of earning a living. Also, from memory, about the time when unintellectual Hasidism took off.

    I haven’t read the novel you mention but it seems likely that people of a literate culture which took notice of people’s deficiencies and noted dysgenic tendencies would be people who actually attempted to pursue eugenic mating. Have you come across the 1916 book by one Rabbi Max Reichler “Jewish Eugenics”? I suspect it would help answer the question we have focused on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @j2
    "I haven’t read the novel you mention but it seems likely that people of a literate culture which took notice of people’s deficiencies and noted dysgenic tendencies would be people who actually attempted to pursue eugenic mating. "

    I have not read the book you mention, but in this your sentence you could not be more correct. Meyrink was a member in secret societies (Golden Dawn and Theosophy) and I have come to the opinion that those exactly were working at that time and they had decided that European Jews must leave for Palestine, as they were one pillar of monarchy. In Waite's Holy Kabbalah there is a chapter what Kabbalah means to Jews, which very clearly tells that Jews should prepare for a long trip home, written before WWII and the holocaust. The transport was the most eugenic one you can imagine, natural selection of the strongest. Cleansing the people by fire. Surely you know the prophets.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • The fact that the US is facing a profound crisis, possibly the worst one in its history, is accepted by most observers, except maybe the most delusional ones. Most Americans definitely know that. In fact, if there is one thing upon which both those who supported Trump and those who hate him with a passion...
  • @Banger
    Just a small point. All major corporate and national powers troll the internet as a matter of routine. I worked for a big-time Washington PR firm when trolling was just getting started big-time and saw how it worked. Anyone with money can do it.

    I wonder whether there are already professional trolling/PR organizations using Artificial Intelligence to produce draft comments to clog up sites they don’t like. With one human editor/commenter maybe half a dozen sites could be stuffed around. Only guessing of course but maybe j2 or some other tech wizard would know what’s possible.

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  • @utu

    There are two main reasons for this: first, unlike their US counterparts, Russian weapons are designed to kill, not to make money and, second, Russians understand warfare because they understand what war really is.
     
    American MIC loves this book. Every congressman and lobbyist in the DC area will get a copy. MIC needs to make them aware and scare them of the kill gap. American weapons unlike the Russian ones do not kill. The next frontier for MIC: The Kill Gap. Americans weapons do not kill. They rather cuddle.

    Anyway, good for Martyanov. Will have some money coming.

    Will there be a Kennedy ready to take advantage of the *kill gap” in 2020?

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  • On the streets, cafes, and carpet shops of Istanbul a very different story than the one presented by western media is developing about the true allegiance of Turkey’s president Recep Tayyip Erdogan. While he continues to play a dangerous international game between Russia and the NATO/ Israeli/ US alliance his biggest future enemy walks the...
  • @Nur
    What kind of nonsence is this? President Erdoğan has an approval of the majority. I am specially proud of him since he can stand up for his country and improve the well being of the ordinary citizen. He is a hard worker and maintains 60% approval rating. The article sounds like a voice from an orient express times, has a little touch with reality.
    Turkey is a regional leader and Erdoğan is not a puppet of Zionist establishment. So the autor seems to resents this.

    I suppose the author would point out that Hitler had similar popular approval but the long run benefit to Germans went missing. A 60 per cent approval btw leaves plenty of scope for the author to be reporting correctly on his conversations with Turks. Presumably he doesn’t speak to many of the relatively poor conservative Muslim country people who have only recently joined the urban hordes, and if he did, it would be by interpreter.

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  • As we all know Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned by polonium, a rare radioactive substance. The main narrative blamed it all on Vladimir Putin of Russia. The rationale rested on little other than because Litvinenko was a Putin critic. This was the quick line in mass media, and it was on all the typical war propaganda...
  • @AnonFromTN
    Being an American, I can break my word not once, but many times, like the government.

    There are different opinions about the origin of the word “presstitutes” on the web. Fact is, it does describe about 99% of MSM journalists and editors better than any other word you can find in Webster. Mind you, not only Western journalists, but all of them.

    As to the media and propaganda, Churchill was quite right when he said:
    “There is no such thing as public opinion. There is only published opinion.”
    Thank goodness for the Internet, though, it made possible Unz review and many other sites where you can find grains of truth.

    As far as Churchill’s style goes, he said this in parliament: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.” Do you consider this gentlemanly?

    Judging by another of his sayings, the American policy did not change much since his time:
    “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”

    As to Ukraine, it had a chance to become a country. I deeply resent that its elites made it a cesspool. I hope against hope that there still is a way to make a country out of it. Hope springs eternal.

    Of course Churchill wasn’t a gentleman: he was an aristocrat ….

    But your version of that old Churchill- attributed repartee made me look it up because one element was loose internet speak not Churchill. He would not have said “Miss”. He wouldn’t even have said “Madam” if he had been speaking in parliament. But the attribution may not be wholly apocryphal and he might have been plagiarizing. After all it is known that he was not originally a good off the cuff speaker.

    Anyway you may find this discussion entertaining

    https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/17/sober-tomorrow/

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  • I have just spent a couple of days in New York City. Returning to Virginia on Wednesday morning, I had a somewhat strange experience. I cleared through my emails before leaving the hotel and also read through a number of the featured news articles. One, in particular, caught my eye. It described how the Democratic...
  • @Them Guys
    Of course you wont read those jewish quotes about jews, and from jews own top level jewish mouths. Because be you a jew, or just a shabozz goy that unquestionably always defend all issues jew and holyhoax. All of them, like you , never accept any facts that prove jews are such a massive international problem for non jews.


    It is a fear factor for you to possibly realize how wrong you have been all along with so defending, and making excuse after excuse for evil jew agendas and behaviours. Of which, every one of those quoted jewish statements will firmly prove beyond any doubt, when folks who do desire truth even when issue is jewish agendas etc, do read and understand how swell those quoted statements portray most of jewry as they truly are and have been for the past 35 centuries if not longer yet.


    So yes I can see why you wont even read those statements by jews and about jews and jewsh agendas and evilness in typical jewish intent and actions done by such jews.


    Ignorance is Bliss, it has been stated...That would be a very apt screen name for you and several other jew firster shabozz goys and crypto jews on this forum.

    Again unread because you have shown yourself lacking the intelligence and civility to introduce your new topic by acknowledging that it is indeed a new topic and not a response to what I had said. Maybe I would have found it interesting, even important, but probably not because I rarely find the enthusiasms of those who can’t follow a simple point interesting.

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  • @Caruthers
    That "treason" is difficult to prove legally on an individual basis is the precise reason for forcing registration as a foreign agent on organizations which are transparently and fanatically committed to extracting as much money and blood (in the form of foreign policy and military committments) as possible from the American taxpayer for a foreign country. Such registration automatically subjects the organization to extra scrutiny, publicity, etc. That AIPAC has engaged in a multitude of subterfuges to avoid such registration, that it opposes such registration so vehemently (even though such registration doesn't abridge freedom of speech), is a very compelling motive for the JFK assassination. Such registration, as intended and warranted, makes promotion of the interest of a foreign country much more difficult, without the need for proof of treason. And that's what AIPAC is all about: promoting the interests of a foreign country.

    I thought you might have something to teach about the legal situation but I note that it was not as you seem to think AIPAC that was fighting the Kennedys but the American Zionist Council – founded in 1949 to succeed an “emergency” body and shut down apparently when AIPAC was designed and set up to get around the legal difficulties of being a foreign agent.

    I was about to ask for quotes or links to give me what you regarded as the critical words for legal purposes. However, you too could probably learn from what I have just Googled 1. American Zionist Council and 2. Why doesn’t AIPAC have to register as a foreign agent.

    That very question [as in 2] was put on Quora and this was the answer given:

    Presumably AIPAC is not registered as a foreign agent because it does not meet the requirements of the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA).

    Those include a requirement that the person or organization be (a) “under the control” of a foreign government or foreign principal, and (b) acting “at the order, request, or under the direction or control” of that entity or other entities that are under its control.

    AIPAC, whether you like it or not, is a US-based organization made up of Americans who feel passionately about American support of the nation of Israel. Millions of Americans feel that way, and have the First Amendment right to organize and advocate for their point of view.

    *** ***
    That seems about right. There was another answer from someone who thought it useful to say that Lyndon Johnson’s mother was Jewish so I leave that for the Wallys to dig up and fight over.

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  • @Them Guys
    Fake wizard keeps ignoring the Fact that Most if not every AIPAC member is also a Dual Israeli Citizen. Not simply an American exercising 1st amendt right to free speech.

    Also IIRC, State of Israel as well as rabbis, talmudics, jews et al consider EVERY jew in the entire world as a Dual Israeli citizen, weather or not a particular individual jew in usa or eu or Alaska or every place else has yet to actually apply for an israeli issued proof of citizenship papers.

    If your mothers a jew?..Then so is You. Per state of Israel Law, and based on Talmudic Law.

    Maybe a lot of jews, especially jews within usa do not like to admit it, but, state of Israel is based upon and ruled by and laws made to jive with, Talmudic Judaism religion beliefs. There is NO such thing in Israel as a "Wall of Separation, between State and "church" Or, state vs synagogue would better fit.

    Seems mr. wizbang refuses to ever consider these important major differences jews adhere to and maintain regardless which "Host" nation they temporarily reside in.

    Maybe a few quotes by various high ranked and well known of jews will enlighten mr. wizbang eh.


    “Let us recognize that we Jews are a distinct nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station, or shade of belief, is necessarily a member.”
    — Louis Brandeis, U.S. Supreme Ct. Justice, Zionism, page 113.

    “The English (or French or American, etc.) patriotism of the Jew is only a fancy-dress which he puts on to please the people of the country.”
    — The Jewish World, December 8, 1911.

    “The Jew is an inborn Communist.”
    — Otto Weininger, Sex and Character, page 311.

    “You cannot be English Jews. We are a race, and only as a race can we perpetuate. Our mentality is of a Hebraic character, and differs from that of an Englishman. Enough subterfuges! Let us assert openly that we are International Jews.”
    — Gerald Soman, Chairman of the World Jewry Fellowship, in its official manifesto, January 1, 1935.

    “I am not an American of JEWISH faith. I am a JEW. I have been a JEW for a thousand years. Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race, and we are a race.”
    — Rabbi Stephen Wise, N.Y. Herald-Tribune, June 13, 1938.

    “You are not Whites — either symbolically or literally — as anyone knows who goes to Israel.”
    — Professor Leonard Fein at speech at 27th biennial congress of the Jewish Board of Deputies in Johannesburg, SA May 15, 1972.

    Under the heading of “A brief History of the Terms for Jew” in the 1980 Jewish Almanac is the following: “Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an Ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew.”
    — 1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3 (the writer is obliquely referring to the true history of the Eastern European Ashkenazim, or Khazars).

    Most Every jews Favorite "Son", Americas worst ever Jewish SPY! Hailed as a Hero by Israel state and jews everywhere and especially jews in America. (See next quote below).

    “The US shouldn’t give high clearances to Jews, because when asked to help, we’re willing to do anything for the love of our country, Israel.”
    — Jew Spy Jonathan Pollard during interrogation by the FBI. Make note that Pollard was born in the US and his spying put America in serious nuclear risk back in the 1980’s.

    (And this jewy Spy never could do so or be such without massive help from AIPAC and a few hundred other usa-jewish-orgs. If Wizbang doubts it? Go ask many of almost 300 more spies caught by fbi etc, and the Fact that all but a small few, single digit few!, were all jewish spies. Some israeli citizens, some usa citizens, some Both as dual usa/israel citizen. All but perhaps 3-5 of 300 total were jewish spies.)

    READ This Rabbis quote below, Understand the jewish mental state of massive Self worship eh.

    “As for the Goyim… Zalman’s attitude (was): “Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.”…If every simple cell in a Jewish body entails divinity, is a part of God, then every strand of DNA is a part of God. Therefore, something is special about Jewish DNA…” “…If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that. Jewish life has an infinite value,” he explained. “There is something infinitely more holy and unique about Jewish life than non-Jewish life.”
    — Chabad-Lubavitch Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh in “Jewish Week,” the largest Jewish publication in the United States, April 26, 1996.

    Here below , quotes HOW this Pure Evilness and Self-Worship affects most jews in the absolute worst ways possible. Indeed jews=Adversaries to God and All of Mankind!=a NT verse.

    “We killed them out of a certain naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the White House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, the lives of others do not count as much as our own….”
    — Ari Shavit, an Israeli columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli killing of more than a hundred Lebanese civilians in an essay reprinted (from the Israeli paper Ha’aretz) in the May 27, 1996, issue of the New York Times.

    You can Bet your Ass, Ari Shavit got plenty of jewish Hatred from his fellow jews for that quoted above eh. NOTHING More Angers jews, than for jews to read or hear, Any amount of Factual, Truth-Proof of typical jewish done Wrongs and Evils...NOTHING!

    I am sorry that my care for the confused has not extended to saving you the time you spent on that effusion by reducing the simple point I was making to words of one syllable. And I won’t waste my time on reading it as you start by wrongly suggesting that dual citizenship has some relevance to the simple LEGAL point I was making.

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    • Replies: @Them Guys
    Of course you wont read those jewish quotes about jews, and from jews own top level jewish mouths. Because be you a jew, or just a shabozz goy that unquestionably always defend all issues jew and holyhoax. All of them, like you , never accept any facts that prove jews are such a massive international problem for non jews.


    It is a fear factor for you to possibly realize how wrong you have been all along with so defending, and making excuse after excuse for evil jew agendas and behaviours. Of which, every one of those quoted jewish statements will firmly prove beyond any doubt, when folks who do desire truth even when issue is jewish agendas etc, do read and understand how swell those quoted statements portray most of jewry as they truly are and have been for the past 35 centuries if not longer yet.


    So yes I can see why you wont even read those statements by jews and about jews and jewsh agendas and evilness in typical jewish intent and actions done by such jews.


    Ignorance is Bliss, it has been stated...That would be a very apt screen name for you and several other jew firster shabozz goys and crypto jews on this forum.
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  • As we all know Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned by polonium, a rare radioactive substance. The main narrative blamed it all on Vladimir Putin of Russia. The rationale rested on little other than because Litvinenko was a Putin critic. This was the quick line in mass media, and it was on all the typical war propaganda...
  • @AnonFromTN
    As I live in the US, I will do what the US government does with international treaties: give my word and then break it. So, I will answer.

    Mistakes are one thing. Of course, the journalists are what they call “well-rounded people”: they know nothing about everything. But Churchill called them “presstitutes” for a reason. When you see exact same story with exact same pictures in a dozen or so outlets, you know what’s going on, and it’s not an innocent mistake. That was how Soviet propaganda operated under Stalin and German propaganda under Hitler.

    Ukraine. In 1991 Ukraine was one of the richest and most developed republics (second only to Russia), and now it’s the poorest among 15 recognized and 6 unrecognized post-Soviet countries, as their “elites” stole and squandered everything that was left after the USSR (including lots of weaponry and ammo) and did not produce anything at all.

    Ukraine was very heterogenous to begin with, artificially created by Tsars and Bolsheviks by adding territories to the original Ukraine (the one that joined Russia under Bogdan Khmelnitsky; about 1/5th of current territory). More than half of the people have Russian as their mother tongue, about a quarter speaks literary (Poltava region) Ukrainian, with the rest speaking several Western Ukrainian dialects, as well as Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc. Before Crimea ran away, there were people speaking Crimean Tatar, which became an official language in that territory only after Crimea joined Russia. Even without Crimea (which was “gifted” by Krushchev in 1954 in stark violation of Soviet laws), Ukraine consists of many disparate regions: Central Ukraine (the home of literary Ukrainian), Slobozhanschina (Kharkov region; people there speak proper Russian, without characteristic Donbass accent), Donbass, The South (Russian-speaking), Odessa region (Russian speaking), Galichina and Volhynia (where various Polonized or Germanized dialects are spoken), and Trans-Carpathian region (it’s the westernmost, but people there hate Galician Nazis even more vehemently than Russians; many speak Russian, Hungarian, and Romanian). Galichina represents about 5% of the population in Ukraine.

    In and of itself heterogeneity of the country does not mean failure: Switzerland has 4 official languages, so does Singapore, Belgium has 3, etc. If Ukrainian rulers (all of them, since 1991) really cared for their country, they would have made many languages official and would have pushed things that unite people, rather than those that divide them. However, they decided that rabid nationalism is the best smokescreen for their thievery and pushed Ukrainian language down people’s throats. I do speak literary Ukrainian (the teacher of Ukrainian language and literature in Lugansk loved me because I was the only kid in a class of 40+ who could speak proper Ukrainian; BTW, in the Soviet Union the languages of all 15 republics and corresponding literature, even in those that did not have any to speak of, was compulsory in schools in those republics) and the dialect spoken around Lvov, where I was born and lived for the first 5 years. But these are not the languages of the majority, and exclusion of other languages is a sure road to disaster.

    Today Ukraine residents are running away from that God-forsaken place in all directions. There are a few million in Russia, a few million in Poland, and likely another few million in the rest of the EU. In 1991 Ukraine had 52 million residents. The authorities are afraid to conduct a census, as it will reveal very depressing reality. Latest estimates suggest that there are currently 22-24 million residents. Polls show that more than half able-bodied ones wish to get out and never come back. Rostislav Ischenko, who worked for the Ukrainian government and ran away to Russia after the coup in 2014, said that anyone who is good for anything and has a chance to compete considers himself Russian and competes in Russia. The ones good for nothing count themselves as Ukrainians and are proud to be the biggest frog in a pathetically small puddle. He should know, he was there 1991-2014.

    To the best of my knowledge (I am not from Crimea), more than 90% of the population of Crimea is happy that it escaped the madhouse current Ukraine became thanks to the “liberal West” without any loss of life. Donbass was not so lucky. I grew up in Lugansk and know a lot of people there. Brief summary is that they all hate current Nazi Ukraine, with about 50:50 split between those who want to join Russia and those who want to remain independent. The same anti-Nazi feelings and the same split of opinions is in the areas Ukraine currently occupies (the people in Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics call the parts of their regions under Ukrainian control “occupied territories”).
    Russia is guilty of interference, but not the one you implied. It supplied Ukraine with natural gas as a fraction of market price until 2014 and allowed Ukrainian oligarchs to resell it to Europe at a huge profit. It subsidized Ukrainian economy in many other ways, which was wrong. Luckily for Russia, all of this has stopped. First and foremost, independence means that you carry your own suitcase.
    Ukraine would have been viable as a federation or confederation, which should have been established in 1991. Instead, Kiev authorities (before current ones) stripped even Crimean Autonomous Republic of its autonomy, and never allowed autonomy of any other region.

    I don’t think anything can save Ukraine today: as they say in Russia, the train has already left the station.

    Even if it was a degree of acculturation to the indispensable nation that was required I am glad you wrote that which has the ring of honest belief as well as reliable information. I must try it out on my friend with the son in Kiev who himself lectured in management there quite a long time ago. I know he tries to keep up to date by listening to/viewing both Ukrainian and Russian language broadcasts.

    May I make a contribution to your credibility even if I don’t particularly want to empower your advocacy…. Your attribution of “presstitute” to Churchill made me sure you had been keeping some bad internet company. Perhaps you have a way to go yet in sorting through degrees of trustworthuness. The word wasn’t coined till about 50 years after Churchill’s death and has a vulgar ring about it that doesn’t fit his style at all. He was definitely of a generation who would quote “the pun is the lowest form of humour [or wit]” though being Churchill might have allowed himself some pugnaciously defended exceptions. So, check all famous man quotes for convenient false attribution [maybe get hold of a copy of the BBC Style Book] : -)

    PS I see you don’t use that old form “The Ukraine” (cp. The Marches of Wales) which particularly annoys Ukrainians :-)

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Being an American, I can break my word not once, but many times, like the government.

    There are different opinions about the origin of the word “presstitutes” on the web. Fact is, it does describe about 99% of MSM journalists and editors better than any other word you can find in Webster. Mind you, not only Western journalists, but all of them.

    As to the media and propaganda, Churchill was quite right when he said:
    “There is no such thing as public opinion. There is only published opinion.”
    Thank goodness for the Internet, though, it made possible Unz review and many other sites where you can find grains of truth.

    As far as Churchill’s style goes, he said this in parliament: “I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.” Do you consider this gentlemanly?

    Judging by another of his sayings, the American policy did not change much since his time:
    “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”

    As to Ukraine, it had a chance to become a country. I deeply resent that its elites made it a cesspool. I hope against hope that there still is a way to make a country out of it. Hope springs eternal.
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  • I have just spent a couple of days in New York City. Returning to Virginia on Wednesday morning, I had a somewhat strange experience. I cleared through my emails before leaving the hotel and also read through a number of the featured news articles. One, in particular, caught my eye. It described how the Democratic...
  • @j2
    I agree with you on this, Wizard. The AIPAC case could have been revised later without killing JFK. I think Piper is correct, it was Dimona, a vital national interest that could not wait. LBJ may have a personal motive, but whatever motive he had, it could not account for the long cover-up.

    I haven’t read Piper and am surprised that you place so much faith in one book. My, only slightly less confident, and equally inexpert appraisal is that the wise heads like Abba Eban would have been horrified at the risk involved, in 1963, if not in 2018, in assassinating a popular President of Israel’s one indispensable ally.

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    • Replies: @j2
    "I haven’t read Piper and am surprised that you place so much faith in one book."

    It has a simple reason. I came to the same conclusions from my own thinking long before I read the book (though I had heard of JFK's problems with Dimona long ago). Later I did read Piper's book. It is repetitive and not well structured. The thesis can be presented in a much better way: a successful assassination of a president should lead to the goals, which can only be an important change in the USA policy (it cannot be a lone nut because there was a conspiracy and a cover-up). Check what changed and eliminate, as you eliminated AIPAC. To see who done it, verify that there was a cover-up and deduce who had the power to do it by elimination.

    "the wise heads like Abba Eban would have been horrified at the risk involved, in 1963, if not in 2018, in assassinating a popular President of Israel’s one indispensable ally."
    The true wise heads were able to see that the friends of Israel had enough power for the cover-up. Notice, I am not saying it was Israel, Piper said so. I say, friends of Israel: LBJ, Lansky, and some powerful group that created Israel. I am not convinced that it is "The Jews" and Israel. It used to be the Freemasons and some bankers, then it was not any more Masons but some less visible group. The defenders of Jews and Israel do mostly harm by confusing this issue.

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  • @j2
    Wizard writes
    "That factor is the greater survival to reproductive age of successive generations of descendants of materially successful people. In the UK the probate and other records showed how much faster the well off breed than the poor for perhaps 400 years. So, even presuming Jewish monogamy and nearly all the women marrying there might have been serious outbreeding by the smart."

    This is true but the mechanism is not limited to Ashkenazi Jews and therefore cannot be used to explain higher IQ of Ashkenazi Jews. However, take into account the following: most mutations are harmful and also most IQ affecting mutations are harmful. They are not very rare, unlike IQ increasing mutations. It is necessary that those individuals, where the negative traits appear worst, do not reproduce. Thus, poor, who often are of low IQ, must reproduce slower than the people with average or higher IQ. But this does not increase average IQ, it just keeps it the same. If low IQ people reproduced with the same rate, the population would not purge out IQ lowering genes and the average IQ would sink. Take also into account that high IQ individuals are a minority. It simply does not much matter to the average IQ how many children they have. Like, assume 3.6 SD people have 15 children, what can it matter to the average IQ as only 1 in 6000 is so smart. No harm done if they live in celibacy either, to the average IQ, that is.

    Interesting argument that the poor and unsuccessful have to breed at lower rates than the smart and successful just to keep the average IQ level from falling because there are so many bad mutations to be purged. But it is an empirical question depending on a lot of different facts being true, not a necessary logical truth and I remain to be convinced. How come assortative mating produced a high IQ upper middle class in England – probably the whole of NW Europe up to about 1914? How come the big caste differences in India? It stands to reason that in many circumstances smart people might breed more survivors than the dim and that it might, as empirical fact, exceed the outbreeding required to purge the dysgenic influence of bad mutations.

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    • Replies: @j2
    "How come assortative mating produced a high IQ upper middle class in England – probably the whole of NW Europe up to about 1914? How come the big caste differences in India? It stands to reason that in many circumstances smart people might breed more survivors than the dim and that it might, as empirical fact, exceed the outbreeding required to purge the dysgenic influence of bad mutations."

    Those were class societies where you married inside the class. I can imagine that under some circumstances eugenic practices can increase IQ and dysgenic can decrease IQ. That is the old eugenic argument. But I guess the dumbest males were always left without mates and women have a preference for intelligence, tall stature and high social standing in men, so that is the direction of sexual selection in humans.

    I remain unconvinced that the Ashkenazi Jews applied eugenic practices so much more than other European people to explain fast increase of IQ, I would imagine they applied it less, since the Jewish population grew fast (=little selection) and already from Antique times they did not expose babies (eugenic practice) but instead had some social help for poor (later by Kahal).

    If you have read the "horror" novel Golem by Gustav Meyrink, you see that at that time there was the opinion that in Jewish ghettos there were lots of outcomes of dysgenic practices, the book foretells the disappearance of ghettos (which was happening) and cleansing the trash.
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  • @renfro

    You really don’t need to be a lawyer to see that the reason AIPAC gets away with not registering as a foreign agent is that it is (almost certainly I presume) an American incorporated body, financed and run by American citizens who all enjoy First Amendment rights.
     
    You also don't need to be a lawyer to understand that AIPAC and its Members are treasonous and betray our country. Every country has seen their kind since the beginning of time.
    They pervert the First Amendment democratic rights for the benefit of a foreign country----just as our Founders warned us of.

    Washington's Farewell Address 1796

    ''by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.''


    So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. ....... And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation
    Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.''

    Not arguing.The context of my observation was that I thought the quite important conclusion followed that a bit of huff and puff from the Kennedy bros about registering as foreign agent didn’t even get close to being a motive for killing JFK.

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  • @annamaria
    "You really don’t need to be a lawyer to see that the reason AIPAC gets away with not registering as a foreign agent is that it is (almost certainly I presume) an American incorporated body, financed and run by American citizens who all enjoy First Amendment rights."
    --- Still playing a naive and objective discussant? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-hurricane-aid-dickinson-israel-boycott-pledge-harvey-financial-help-free-speech-a8011141.html
    "A Texas city devastated by flooding after Hurricane Harvey is forcing recipients of financial aid to sign a pledge not to boycott Israel. ... Dickinson’s requirement is an egregious violation of the First Amendment...”
    --- More on the same: Zionization of the US military: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/11/have-the-us-militry-gone-zionist.html
    "The US military now seems to be totally focused on Israeli policy goals in Iran, Syria and Iraq. Israel is not much interested in Afghanistan or Korea and in those ares the US is not slavishly following the Israeli lead. Israel wants Iran neutered and eliminated as a power rival in the Middle East....
    The process of conditioning American officers to make them Zionists has been ongoing for a long time. ... The indoctrination and conditioning program has carried through to the present under the umbrella of AIPAC and its galaxy of linked organizations especially the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA). This program has been wildly, incredibly successful. As a result there is an unthinking willingness among senior, and not so senior American officers to support Israeli policy in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and now Saudi Arabia.
    The handful of ME trained and educated US officers are ignored, treated as technical experts or shoved out the door when they speak up:" https://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/2017/11/20/u-s-military-zionist-organization/
    https://thinkprogress.org/doug-feiths-arabic-problem-64ac58079514/
    http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=neoconinfluence&neoconinfluence_prominent_neoconservatives=neoconinfluence_douglas_feith
    Post by renfro (514): "AIPAC and its Members are treasonous and betray our country."
    -- The US has been betrayed by the Israel-firsters. AIPAC et al. represent foreign interests that are harmful to the interests of the US.

    I’m being charitable. You must be a lucky person who has never had to talk to lawyers or understand legal reasoning.

    The point, the only point I raised, was that the activities of bodies like AIPAC could presumably be quite easily made legally immune from any consequences of acting de facto as if they are foreign agents as long as the United States and Israel weren’t at war with one another and the funding and senior staffing of AIPAC was provided by Americans.

    The importance of this was that it meant that any (futile) gestures the Kennedys might have made toward getting pro Israel lobbyists registered as foreign agents could not have provided an adequate motive to kill either of them.

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    • Replies: @chris
    Besides, these paragons of virtue would surely have been induced financially to become slightly more flexible on any issue.

    Whoring around with every woman he could get his hands on is the the best advertisemen that everything is for sale!
    , @j2
    I agree with you on this, Wizard. The AIPAC case could have been revised later without killing JFK. I think Piper is correct, it was Dimona, a vital national interest that could not wait. LBJ may have a personal motive, but whatever motive he had, it could not account for the long cover-up.
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  • @j2
    I just add some comments to the previous issues:

    Consider the pressure on a population which had to send boys to army. They could select whom to send from the village and as in army you mostly are wasted for the community, they very probably chose the stupid ones. Very many Finns were taken to fight in the Swedish army, still this selection did not much increase IQ. (All Finns were considered stupid but the IQ has increased through education since those times.) Therefore I very much doubt the mechanism of lower IQ Jews not being able to marry causing much increase in IQ. Most Jewish men had to marry if practically all Jewish women were married and it was monogamy. Jews were not taken to army.

    Consider the proposed explanation of increased IQ by persecution. Arabs and Sub Saharan tribes persecuted Sub Saharan Africans, caught them and sold them as slaves. This did not increase Sub Saharan African IQ. Indeed, descendants of those who did not escape have today higher IQ. So, is it that the more stupid manage to escape? Then persecution decreased Jewish IQ.

    Still consider the idiotic (I would use the word here) explanation that the Jewish IQ rose because men, who did not learn to read, were excluded from mating. Nearly everybody learns how to read if taught. Those who cannot are so limited that their low mental abilities stopped them form marrying also in societies which did not have a written language.

    All these natural selection explanations for Ashkenazi Jewish IQ are questionable. It is like somebody is trying to invent a justification for the over-representation of Jews in higher education and high-pay jobs. These explanations are not scientific, they are elements of deception. Education has a major role in IQ differences between populations from the same main race.

    The IQ differences between main races are caused by IQ increasing mutations, which are rare events. There can be a selection event, such as happened with Ashkenazi Jews moving selectively to the USA, but those are special events. Mostly it is other mechanisms. European Jews got a higher IQ from admixture with Europeans. Eurasians got higher IQ quite possibly by admixture with Neanderthals. Neanderthals and Modern humans got different IQ by mutations over a long time.

    I think my last reply covers the ground with my final best point, for the moment, being that the smart and successful may have outbred the dim and poor as in Greg Clark’s UK.

    I meant to ask, and now do, what response you have had from Greg Cochran to your reasoned objections to his (and Henry Harpending’s and Jason Hardy’s) thesis about the quick and dirty way some neurological oddities could turn into IQ enhancers?

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  • @j2
    A few comments on your considerations.

    You do not mention this but Greg Cochran et al also proposed IQ increasing mutations in Jews and linked them to degenerative heritable diseases. I made a calculation that disproves this connection, which it disproved also my medical studies: no heterozygote advantage of these diseases has been found. You find my calculation in
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/04/04/a-new-paper-on-heterozygote-advantage-analysis/
    The proof is that if there is heterozygote advantage, then the ratio of carriers to sufferers of the disease is different from the one that we can see. This is quite a strong argument disproving the claim.

    You suggest the other proposal of Cochran et al that there was selective mating where the low IQ males did not mate. This is hardly valid for Ashkenazi Jews in Europe because
    1) they were monogamous, even if they had female slaves, it was not allowed to rise the children to be Jews by marriage of the slave woman (to be a concubine in fact). This rule came to power around 800 AD, so though the females of Ashkenazi Jews probably were European slaves, later this mechanism did not work.
    2) practically all women were married.
    3) there was social help by the Kahal.
    Combine 1)+2)+3) and you see that the conditions of purging out low IQ males are very small. Assortative mating is of course a rule in all societies, also Jews, but as it is a rule, we cannot attribute it a rise in average IQ. You have here my version of the origin of the Ashkenazi including the hypothesis of slave females as founding mothers:
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/02/17/origins-of-the-ashkenazi-jews/
    I would be quite dismissive of rabbi's sons marrying businessman's daughters as the mechanism. You have similar assortative mating in all societies. That is also the reason why the very high end of the IQ distribution after selection will not get any thicker: already to start with the smart marry the smart. It is already included in the normal distribution. It does not widen the distribution, only new mutations would do it and to get a skew to visual-spatial, you must modify the control of testosterone genes.

    I made a small calculation of the number of IQ rising mutations and do not think that mutations have much IQ increasing effect in 1000 years. They cause retardation, but retarded are excluded from average IQ measurements.

    I discuss the Ashkenazi Jewish verbal IQ in
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/05/16/a-comment-on-petersons-so-called-jewish-problem-and-its-reply-by-macdonald/
    My main conclusion is that Vordsum measured extended vocabulary and it is strongly cultural, that is, environmentally determined. But from personal experience I have the feeling that all Mediterranean people are better performers verbally, more extroverted, often high in agency (=domination), all should cause a skew to verbal IQ. Finns and Sami for instance have a skew to Visual-spatial IQ, less than East Asians, but more than other Europeans.

    About regression to the mean, I used JayMan's breeding equation, but I looked at it in
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/04/30/how-do-iq-genes-relate-to-the-regression-to-the-mean/
    and it is somewhat more complicated issue. Nevertheless, if Ron Unz estimated that average 115 should have required 130 originally, then he estimated heritability to 50%, which is a bit low. He also ignored education. Say, of this 115 average 8 points is due to efforts in education, to learn English, which e.g. Italian immigrants did not so much do. Genetic IQ need not be so high.

    Very many low IQ Eastern European Jews died during the WWII, so now there is a selection for higher IQ, still in Israel Ashkenazi Jewish total IQ is 103.5 and part of it is environmental. Just start downplaying genetic explanations for 1000 years of development. Genetic explanations are valid for IQ differences that came in 50,000 years. That is sure, but the selection that raised Ashkenazi Jewish IQ, it was sad, they left the dumber to die. Pre-Zionists, that is, they were the true anti-Semites.

    Thank you for giving me a lot to get my teeth into if I am to be able to justify any views I express on IQs.

    Let first correct a couple of misconceptions that you may have about what I intended to convey.

    One is that it was I, rather than Greg Cochran who proposed that the left side of the Bell Curve should be considered as well as the right.

    Another is that Ron Unz erred when I pointed out that an average IQ of 115 for Jews in America presupposed an immigrant IQ of 130 if one supposed that selective immigration from an average IQ 100 population was responsible. Not at all. The point wasn’t strict accuracy but just for us to agree that selective immigration couldn’t explain the supposed 115 average of later generation US Ashkenazim.

    Your points contra my “dumb Jews didn’t reproduce as Jews argument” are valid as far as they go but omit one big factor highlighted by Prof Greg Clark in “A Farewell to Alms: A Brief Economic History of the World” and several articles. That factor is the greater survival to reproductive age of successive generations of descendants of materially successful people. In the UK the probate and other records showed how much faster the well off breed than the poor for perhaps 400 years. So, even presuming Jewish monogamy and nearly all the women marrying there might have been serious outbreeding by the smart. Cf. The lumpy ends on the otherwise normal curve for UK boys IQs in Cyril Burt’s mid 40s work. There were far more IQs over 170 than conventional assumptions allowed and it was, surely, because the UK upper middle classes were rather like Ashkenazim after a few centuries of selection and outbreeding the dim. (The left hand lumpishness was presumably caused by disease and congenital problems and wasn’t relevant to this discussion).

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    • Replies: @j2
    Wizard writes
    "That factor is the greater survival to reproductive age of successive generations of descendants of materially successful people. In the UK the probate and other records showed how much faster the well off breed than the poor for perhaps 400 years. So, even presuming Jewish monogamy and nearly all the women marrying there might have been serious outbreeding by the smart."

    This is true but the mechanism is not limited to Ashkenazi Jews and therefore cannot be used to explain higher IQ of Ashkenazi Jews. However, take into account the following: most mutations are harmful and also most IQ affecting mutations are harmful. They are not very rare, unlike IQ increasing mutations. It is necessary that those individuals, where the negative traits appear worst, do not reproduce. Thus, poor, who often are of low IQ, must reproduce slower than the people with average or higher IQ. But this does not increase average IQ, it just keeps it the same. If low IQ people reproduced with the same rate, the population would not purge out IQ lowering genes and the average IQ would sink. Take also into account that high IQ individuals are a minority. It simply does not much matter to the average IQ how many children they have. Like, assume 3.6 SD people have 15 children, what can it matter to the average IQ as only 1 in 6000 is so smart. No harm done if they live in celibacy either, to the average IQ, that is.

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  • @Caruthers
    In seeking to require AIPAC to register as a foreign agent, JFK was not seeking to abridge free speech per se, but only speech and political activity in the service of a foreign country, the aim of which is to benefit that country at the expense of one's own. Speech and political activity can be treasonous. "Foreign agents" need not be staffed by foreigners; they could be staffed by Americans who act to benefit a foreign country treasonously at the expense of their own.

    No doubt at all American citizens who put other countries’ interests first may reasonably be regarded as treasonous in an everyday colloquial sense. But are you offering a legal opinion? I suspect that the legal position is that there is very little, if any, legal comeback against American citizens who, in times of peace with country A, put the interests of country A first.

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    • Replies: @Them Guys
    Fake wizard keeps ignoring the Fact that Most if not every AIPAC member is also a Dual Israeli Citizen. Not simply an American exercising 1st amendt right to free speech.

    Also IIRC, State of Israel as well as rabbis, talmudics, jews et al consider EVERY jew in the entire world as a Dual Israeli citizen, weather or not a particular individual jew in usa or eu or Alaska or every place else has yet to actually apply for an israeli issued proof of citizenship papers.

    If your mothers a jew?..Then so is You. Per state of Israel Law, and based on Talmudic Law.

    Maybe a lot of jews, especially jews within usa do not like to admit it, but, state of Israel is based upon and ruled by and laws made to jive with, Talmudic Judaism religion beliefs. There is NO such thing in Israel as a "Wall of Separation, between State and "church" Or, state vs synagogue would better fit.

    Seems mr. wizbang refuses to ever consider these important major differences jews adhere to and maintain regardless which "Host" nation they temporarily reside in.

    Maybe a few quotes by various high ranked and well known of jews will enlighten mr. wizbang eh.


    “Let us recognize that we Jews are a distinct nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station, or shade of belief, is necessarily a member.”
    — Louis Brandeis, U.S. Supreme Ct. Justice, Zionism, page 113.

    “The English (or French or American, etc.) patriotism of the Jew is only a fancy-dress which he puts on to please the people of the country.”
    — The Jewish World, December 8, 1911.

    “The Jew is an inborn Communist.”
    — Otto Weininger, Sex and Character, page 311.

    “You cannot be English Jews. We are a race, and only as a race can we perpetuate. Our mentality is of a Hebraic character, and differs from that of an Englishman. Enough subterfuges! Let us assert openly that we are International Jews.”
    — Gerald Soman, Chairman of the World Jewry Fellowship, in its official manifesto, January 1, 1935.

    “I am not an American of JEWISH faith. I am a JEW. I have been a JEW for a thousand years. Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race, and we are a race.”
    — Rabbi Stephen Wise, N.Y. Herald-Tribune, June 13, 1938.

    “You are not Whites — either symbolically or literally — as anyone knows who goes to Israel.”
    — Professor Leonard Fein at speech at 27th biennial congress of the Jewish Board of Deputies in Johannesburg, SA May 15, 1972.

    Under the heading of “A brief History of the Terms for Jew” in the 1980 Jewish Almanac is the following: “Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an Ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew.”
    — 1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3 (the writer is obliquely referring to the true history of the Eastern European Ashkenazim, or Khazars).

    Most Every jews Favorite "Son", Americas worst ever Jewish SPY! Hailed as a Hero by Israel state and jews everywhere and especially jews in America. (See next quote below).

    “The US shouldn’t give high clearances to Jews, because when asked to help, we’re willing to do anything for the love of our country, Israel.”
    — Jew Spy Jonathan Pollard during interrogation by the FBI. Make note that Pollard was born in the US and his spying put America in serious nuclear risk back in the 1980’s.

    (And this jewy Spy never could do so or be such without massive help from AIPAC and a few hundred other usa-jewish-orgs. If Wizbang doubts it? Go ask many of almost 300 more spies caught by fbi etc, and the Fact that all but a small few, single digit few!, were all jewish spies. Some israeli citizens, some usa citizens, some Both as dual usa/israel citizen. All but perhaps 3-5 of 300 total were jewish spies.)

    READ This Rabbis quote below, Understand the jewish mental state of massive Self worship eh.

    “As for the Goyim… Zalman’s attitude (was): “Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.”…If every simple cell in a Jewish body entails divinity, is a part of God, then every strand of DNA is a part of God. Therefore, something is special about Jewish DNA…” “…If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that. Jewish life has an infinite value,” he explained. “There is something infinitely more holy and unique about Jewish life than non-Jewish life.”
    — Chabad-Lubavitch Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh in “Jewish Week,” the largest Jewish publication in the United States, April 26, 1996.

    Here below , quotes HOW this Pure Evilness and Self-Worship affects most jews in the absolute worst ways possible. Indeed jews=Adversaries to God and All of Mankind!=a NT verse.

    “We killed them out of a certain naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the White House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, the lives of others do not count as much as our own….”
    — Ari Shavit, an Israeli columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli killing of more than a hundred Lebanese civilians in an essay reprinted (from the Israeli paper Ha’aretz) in the May 27, 1996, issue of the New York Times.

    You can Bet your Ass, Ari Shavit got plenty of jewish Hatred from his fellow jews for that quoted above eh. NOTHING More Angers jews, than for jews to read or hear, Any amount of Factual, Truth-Proof of typical jewish done Wrongs and Evils...NOTHING!
    , @Caruthers
    That "treason" is difficult to prove legally on an individual basis is the precise reason for forcing registration as a foreign agent on organizations which are transparently and fanatically committed to extracting as much money and blood (in the form of foreign policy and military committments) as possible from the American taxpayer for a foreign country. Such registration automatically subjects the organization to extra scrutiny, publicity, etc. That AIPAC has engaged in a multitude of subterfuges to avoid such registration, that it opposes such registration so vehemently (even though such registration doesn't abridge freedom of speech), is a very compelling motive for the JFK assassination. Such registration, as intended and warranted, makes promotion of the interest of a foreign country much more difficult, without the need for proof of treason. And that's what AIPAC is all about: promoting the interests of a foreign country.
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  • As we all know Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned by polonium, a rare radioactive substance. The main narrative blamed it all on Vladimir Putin of Russia. The rationale rested on little other than because Litvinenko was a Putin critic. This was the quick line in mass media, and it was on all the typical war propaganda...
  • @AnonFromTN
    My response to you is based on the assumption that you are not a paid troll, but an honestly deluded person, which may or may not be the case. In the latter case your behavior is incongruous: if you really believe BBC and the rest of MSM, what are you doing on this site?!

    I must confess that I used to believe Western MSM once. I swallowed line, hook, and sinker their stories about Moscow uprising in 1993, and the wars in former Yugoslavia. My revelation came in 2014, when the “reporting” about Ukraine started. I was born and grew up there, I have friends and relatives as far West as Lvov, as far East as Lugansk, and in several places in between, so I know the reality of that unfortunate country very well. That’s how I know that 90% of the stories in the Western MSM about Ukraine are lies and blatant lies, with the remaining 10% containing facts twisted beyond recognition. Then I started questioning the rest. I happen to personally know people living in Moscow and in various parts of former Yugoslavia. Talking to them I discovered that the Western MSM (including your beloved BBC) lied through their teeth about these events, as well. Now I won’t believe a word BBC, NYT, and others of their ilk are saying.

    Not to mention that you start noticing things when you pay attention. When the same story with the same pictures appears on the BBC site, on the CNN site, in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Times, The Guardian, The Independent, and several other MSM, you have little doubt about the provenance of the boilerplate.

    You explain closing comments by purely economic reasons. I have read the comments at the BBC site and in The Guardian when they still had them. Despite their attempts at censorship, the great majority of commenters questioned (sometimes rudely) clumsy propaganda pushed by those outlets. Therefore, I have a different explanation why BBC closed comments, The Guardian allows them only on stories nobody gives a hoot about (this is not just my opinion – I read comments on the Daily Mail and The Independent sites from “refugees” from The Guardian), and now The Independent is well advanced on the same path. This is too familiar to someone born in the USSR: it is hard pushing lies, you cannot afford to let dissenters have their say.

    The uniformity of opinion in the Western MSM today reminds one of the worst times of Stalin’s or Hitler’s dictatorship. Even in the USSR under Brezhnev there was more variety. Compared to that, today’s Russia has boundless freedom of speech. From my perspective, this uniformity further undermines the credibility of Western MSM.

    Anyway, this is my last answer to you. I am putting you on the list of people to ignore. You can hardly be proud of it: that “Wally” personage you mentioned is on that list.

    It seems a bit premature to put me on the Commenters to Ignore list without waiting for a reply to something you took so much trouble over and in which you started with an implicit question.

    I recall when I was about 20 noting that every article in Time on a subject with which I was familiar contained errors. Later familiarity with the daily media confirmed the prevalence of error, and not a little group think amongst journalists and huge cultural blanks resulting from ignorance or commonly shared myths and prejudices. So actually getting things right even for those for whom it is vital and have staffs to help them is not easy.

    In the case of Ukraine I have absolutely no prejudices – remember the 1930s’ references to even Central Europe as “far away countries of which we know little” – but I do have an Australian born professor friend of Galician Ukrainian background whose Australian son has started a publishing business in Kiev (to take advantage of affordable skilled labour) and he is at least as strong on the lies from Russia as you are on those from the side which starts with the view that Russia’s interference with Ukraine is the problem.

    Personally I find it a shame that politicians’ fear of losing support from simple minded (or just busy and necessarily ignorant) supporters precludes moves toward sensible solutions. E.g. why not seek to create an autonomous Crimea that can have a vote to become part of another country in 40 years time? Plus some greater local autonomy in eastern Ukraine once Russian military support is withdrawn. (You are I take it familiar with the extent to which Russia has followed the US – or innovated – in using mercenaries? It was pointed out to me how much better it was for Russian-US relations that the 300 Russians killed by Americans or American backed Kurds a few months ago in Syria were not part of the official Russian armed forces).

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    As I live in the US, I will do what the US government does with international treaties: give my word and then break it. So, I will answer.

    Mistakes are one thing. Of course, the journalists are what they call “well-rounded people”: they know nothing about everything. But Churchill called them “presstitutes” for a reason. When you see exact same story with exact same pictures in a dozen or so outlets, you know what’s going on, and it’s not an innocent mistake. That was how Soviet propaganda operated under Stalin and German propaganda under Hitler.

    Ukraine. In 1991 Ukraine was one of the richest and most developed republics (second only to Russia), and now it’s the poorest among 15 recognized and 6 unrecognized post-Soviet countries, as their “elites” stole and squandered everything that was left after the USSR (including lots of weaponry and ammo) and did not produce anything at all.

    Ukraine was very heterogenous to begin with, artificially created by Tsars and Bolsheviks by adding territories to the original Ukraine (the one that joined Russia under Bogdan Khmelnitsky; about 1/5th of current territory). More than half of the people have Russian as their mother tongue, about a quarter speaks literary (Poltava region) Ukrainian, with the rest speaking several Western Ukrainian dialects, as well as Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc. Before Crimea ran away, there were people speaking Crimean Tatar, which became an official language in that territory only after Crimea joined Russia. Even without Crimea (which was “gifted” by Krushchev in 1954 in stark violation of Soviet laws), Ukraine consists of many disparate regions: Central Ukraine (the home of literary Ukrainian), Slobozhanschina (Kharkov region; people there speak proper Russian, without characteristic Donbass accent), Donbass, The South (Russian-speaking), Odessa region (Russian speaking), Galichina and Volhynia (where various Polonized or Germanized dialects are spoken), and Trans-Carpathian region (it’s the westernmost, but people there hate Galician Nazis even more vehemently than Russians; many speak Russian, Hungarian, and Romanian). Galichina represents about 5% of the population in Ukraine.

    In and of itself heterogeneity of the country does not mean failure: Switzerland has 4 official languages, so does Singapore, Belgium has 3, etc. If Ukrainian rulers (all of them, since 1991) really cared for their country, they would have made many languages official and would have pushed things that unite people, rather than those that divide them. However, they decided that rabid nationalism is the best smokescreen for their thievery and pushed Ukrainian language down people’s throats. I do speak literary Ukrainian (the teacher of Ukrainian language and literature in Lugansk loved me because I was the only kid in a class of 40+ who could speak proper Ukrainian; BTW, in the Soviet Union the languages of all 15 republics and corresponding literature, even in those that did not have any to speak of, was compulsory in schools in those republics) and the dialect spoken around Lvov, where I was born and lived for the first 5 years. But these are not the languages of the majority, and exclusion of other languages is a sure road to disaster.

    Today Ukraine residents are running away from that God-forsaken place in all directions. There are a few million in Russia, a few million in Poland, and likely another few million in the rest of the EU. In 1991 Ukraine had 52 million residents. The authorities are afraid to conduct a census, as it will reveal very depressing reality. Latest estimates suggest that there are currently 22-24 million residents. Polls show that more than half able-bodied ones wish to get out and never come back. Rostislav Ischenko, who worked for the Ukrainian government and ran away to Russia after the coup in 2014, said that anyone who is good for anything and has a chance to compete considers himself Russian and competes in Russia. The ones good for nothing count themselves as Ukrainians and are proud to be the biggest frog in a pathetically small puddle. He should know, he was there 1991-2014.

    To the best of my knowledge (I am not from Crimea), more than 90% of the population of Crimea is happy that it escaped the madhouse current Ukraine became thanks to the “liberal West” without any loss of life. Donbass was not so lucky. I grew up in Lugansk and know a lot of people there. Brief summary is that they all hate current Nazi Ukraine, with about 50:50 split between those who want to join Russia and those who want to remain independent. The same anti-Nazi feelings and the same split of opinions is in the areas Ukraine currently occupies (the people in Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics call the parts of their regions under Ukrainian control “occupied territories”).
    Russia is guilty of interference, but not the one you implied. It supplied Ukraine with natural gas as a fraction of market price until 2014 and allowed Ukrainian oligarchs to resell it to Europe at a huge profit. It subsidized Ukrainian economy in many other ways, which was wrong. Luckily for Russia, all of this has stopped. First and foremost, independence means that you carry your own suitcase.
    Ukraine would have been viable as a federation or confederation, which should have been established in 1991. Instead, Kiev authorities (before current ones) stripped even Crimean Autonomous Republic of its autonomy, and never allowed autonomy of any other region.

    I don’t think anything can save Ukraine today: as they say in Russia, the train has already left the station.

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  • I have just spent a couple of days in New York City. Returning to Virginia on Wednesday morning, I had a somewhat strange experience. I cleared through my emails before leaving the hotel and also read through a number of the featured news articles. One, in particular, caught my eye. It described how the Democratic...
  • @James Forrestal

    AIPAC isn’t a foreign lobby
     
    lol. When ya got nuttin', just go with pure, unalloyed chutzpah, eh? And just what does the "I" in "AIPAC" stand for again? Are any of the jews living in the US who support the foreign, treasonous lobby AIPAC citizens of Israel, by any chance? You know that a group that lobbies for the interests of a foreign nation, and that is controlled by citizens of that nation, is the very definition of a "foreign lobby"... don't you?

    You would benefit from reading "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy." But you won't, of course. Why allow mere facts to impinge upon your deeply-held tribal delusions?

    And your deep (and comical) ignorance of the irrefutable case put forth by Piper is typical of your emotionally-based, incoherent "arguments," of course...

    I thought I remembered something interesting and credible from you some time but this effusion of yours makes me wonder. Are you another of the UR threadsters who steps confidently out of his depth without having a clue that he is doing so?

    Let me help make the point by saying I trust you would not deal with your tax obligations and claims in a cavalier fashion which ignores that it is the subject of LAW and subject to legal technicalities. You really don’t need to be a lawyer to see that the reason AIPAC gets away with not registering as a foreign agent is that it is (almost certainly I presume) an American incorporated body, financed and run by American citizens who all enjoy First Amendment rights. Simple really and why it is almost certainly true that the early 1960s arguments over registration of bodies supporting Israeli policies couldn’t have been a reason for murdering JFK. And that was my original point in case you are interested in other people’s points.

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    • Replies: @renfro

    You really don’t need to be a lawyer to see that the reason AIPAC gets away with not registering as a foreign agent is that it is (almost certainly I presume) an American incorporated body, financed and run by American citizens who all enjoy First Amendment rights.
     
    You also don't need to be a lawyer to understand that AIPAC and its Members are treasonous and betray our country. Every country has seen their kind since the beginning of time.
    They pervert the First Amendment democratic rights for the benefit of a foreign country----just as our Founders warned us of.

    Washington's Farewell Address 1796

    ''by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.''


    So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. ....... And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation
    Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.''
    , @Caruthers
    In seeking to require AIPAC to register as a foreign agent, JFK was not seeking to abridge free speech per se, but only speech and political activity in the service of a foreign country, the aim of which is to benefit that country at the expense of one's own. Speech and political activity can be treasonous. "Foreign agents" need not be staffed by foreigners; they could be staffed by Americans who act to benefit a foreign country treasonously at the expense of their own.
    , @annamaria
    "You really don’t need to be a lawyer to see that the reason AIPAC gets away with not registering as a foreign agent is that it is (almost certainly I presume) an American incorporated body, financed and run by American citizens who all enjoy First Amendment rights."
    --- Still playing a naive and objective discussant? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-hurricane-aid-dickinson-israel-boycott-pledge-harvey-financial-help-free-speech-a8011141.html
    "A Texas city devastated by flooding after Hurricane Harvey is forcing recipients of financial aid to sign a pledge not to boycott Israel. ... Dickinson’s requirement is an egregious violation of the First Amendment...”
    --- More on the same: Zionization of the US military: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/11/have-the-us-militry-gone-zionist.html
    "The US military now seems to be totally focused on Israeli policy goals in Iran, Syria and Iraq. Israel is not much interested in Afghanistan or Korea and in those ares the US is not slavishly following the Israeli lead. Israel wants Iran neutered and eliminated as a power rival in the Middle East....
    The process of conditioning American officers to make them Zionists has been ongoing for a long time. ... The indoctrination and conditioning program has carried through to the present under the umbrella of AIPAC and its galaxy of linked organizations especially the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA). This program has been wildly, incredibly successful. As a result there is an unthinking willingness among senior, and not so senior American officers to support Israeli policy in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and now Saudi Arabia.
    The handful of ME trained and educated US officers are ignored, treated as technical experts or shoved out the door when they speak up:" https://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/2017/11/20/u-s-military-zionist-organization/
    https://thinkprogress.org/doug-feiths-arabic-problem-64ac58079514/
    http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=neoconinfluence&neoconinfluence_prominent_neoconservatives=neoconinfluence_douglas_feith
    Post by renfro (514): "AIPAC and its Members are treasonous and betray our country."
    -- The US has been betrayed by the Israel-firsters. AIPAC et al. represent foreign interests that are harmful to the interests of the US.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @j2
    "I don’t think you are right about Jewish immigrants to the US before 1925 being usually from the brighter half. A very large number were illiterate apart from any other argument. What is more regression toward the mean requires the immigrants average IQ to have been about 100 + 2x if the average IQ of American Jews is 100 + x and the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews generally is 100. If <100 then the argument is even stronger."

    In the post that I wrote
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/02/21/a-short-note-on-the-iq-of-american-ashkenazi-jews/
    there is a plot from Razib Khan's post. This plot is based on Wordsum results and it is very probably the same results that lead Richard Lynn to conclude that American Jewish IQ has average 107.5 and from the distribution he concluded that there was selection for those migrating to the USA. I conclude the same. The plot is not normally distributed. (It is not truncated from high IQ part, see Khan's plots for the rich, they stay up in the right side, this does go down) Almost anything is normally distributed (a mathematical theorem with weak assumptions). For this plot not to be normally distributed there are very few possible reasons and the only one making any sense is selection, just like Lynn concluded.

    You make the incorrect assumption that all American Jews immigrated before 1925. There was a million who came between 1921 and 1939 that your statistics does not show, but you can deduce it from the population figures.

    For the time from 1921 to 1939 the immigrants had to pass an IQ test. First is was just a puzzle. (When I was an exchange student in the USA I was asked to solve this famous puzzle by a school teacher, it is not at all difficult, but maybe screens some below 100 people.) Later it was an IQ test. I conclude there was 1M Jews who secretly migrated to the USA in this time from the growth of the US Jewish population.

    Before that there was no selection in the US side, but as competent Jews had lost their jobs in Russia, they had to look for work somewhere. Stupid Jews usually did not have the money for a boat ticket. Certainly there was selection, like there was a selection of Scottish, Lynn measured that the American Scottish are considerably higher IQ than in the Great Britain and proposed selection as the reason. I agree. That is, before 1925 there was a selection because intelligent Russian Jews had lost their jobs, but they had money to move to the USA. This selection does not exclude migration of low IQ Jews to the USA, but changes the portions.

    We can conclude there was a selection for higher IQ. It does not exclude the possibility that some, even many, low IQ Jews did immigrate to the USA, like the existence of some strong women does not mean anything to the conclusion that men are stronger than women.

    The mean from the above IQ 100 distribution is 112. Regression to the mean, assuming 60% heritability, reduces it to 0.6*12+100=107.2, which is exactly what we see. Lynn estimated US Ashkenazi IQ to 107.5, (before the establishment told him to move it up to 110.)

    Thank you for that. It is good to be able to add to the number of UR commenters who writes knowledgeably and honestly, especially when up to date on something I haven’t paid as much detailed attention to in recent years.

    Your point about inter-war Jewish immigration seems to be a good one. Clearly the UK and Australia benefited from German and Austrian Jewish refugees being the better educated and richer but it would have been natural I suppose for Russian Jews to go where there were many already and, in the 1920s, the economy was booming.

    You confirm my point about regression to the mean and remind me that, when I first made it many years ago it was when the figure of 115 was still accepted by many or most as the average Ashkenazi IQ. I recall Ron Unz agreeing with me that selection of immigrants didn’t explain it because it would imply an average of about 130 for the immigrants, which was obviously absurd. Still…

    Not everything from my old speculations and calculations has to be abandoned. When Greg Cochran et al. were making a credible case for the Ashkenazi IQ generally having been raised by the selective survival and reproduction in large families of, typically, the rabbi’s children marrying the successful businessman’s children (as to which I say “no doubt, and see a similar effect in the English successful middle classes for several hundred years – per Greg Clark ‘A Farewell to Alms’ “) I used my imagination and proposed that being Jewish and being accepted to marry a Jewish girl was sufficiently difficult that the dimmer ones didn’t do nearly as much breeding, at least as Jews. I supported this speculation with a calculation that suggested that, if you start with a 100 average IQ population and don’t allow those with IQs below a certain level to breed for 500 years you would move the average up to 115. (I don’t remember my fixed or moving lower limit for sure . Maybe 70, maybe 80 maybe 2 sds???). Greg Cochran was dismissive but, even without “Jewish Eugenics” (Rabbi Reichler 1916), I think it makes sense that selection operated on both sides of the curve, albeit in different ways.

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    • Replies: @j2
    A few comments on your considerations.

    You do not mention this but Greg Cochran et al also proposed IQ increasing mutations in Jews and linked them to degenerative heritable diseases. I made a calculation that disproves this connection, which it disproved also my medical studies: no heterozygote advantage of these diseases has been found. You find my calculation in
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/04/04/a-new-paper-on-heterozygote-advantage-analysis/
    The proof is that if there is heterozygote advantage, then the ratio of carriers to sufferers of the disease is different from the one that we can see. This is quite a strong argument disproving the claim.

    You suggest the other proposal of Cochran et al that there was selective mating where the low IQ males did not mate. This is hardly valid for Ashkenazi Jews in Europe because
    1) they were monogamous, even if they had female slaves, it was not allowed to rise the children to be Jews by marriage of the slave woman (to be a concubine in fact). This rule came to power around 800 AD, so though the females of Ashkenazi Jews probably were European slaves, later this mechanism did not work.
    2) practically all women were married.
    3) there was social help by the Kahal.
    Combine 1)+2)+3) and you see that the conditions of purging out low IQ males are very small. Assortative mating is of course a rule in all societies, also Jews, but as it is a rule, we cannot attribute it a rise in average IQ. You have here my version of the origin of the Ashkenazi including the hypothesis of slave females as founding mothers:
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/02/17/origins-of-the-ashkenazi-jews/
    I would be quite dismissive of rabbi's sons marrying businessman's daughters as the mechanism. You have similar assortative mating in all societies. That is also the reason why the very high end of the IQ distribution after selection will not get any thicker: already to start with the smart marry the smart. It is already included in the normal distribution. It does not widen the distribution, only new mutations would do it and to get a skew to visual-spatial, you must modify the control of testosterone genes.

    I made a small calculation of the number of IQ rising mutations and do not think that mutations have much IQ increasing effect in 1000 years. They cause retardation, but retarded are excluded from average IQ measurements.

    I discuss the Ashkenazi Jewish verbal IQ in
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/05/16/a-comment-on-petersons-so-called-jewish-problem-and-its-reply-by-macdonald/
    My main conclusion is that Vordsum measured extended vocabulary and it is strongly cultural, that is, environmentally determined. But from personal experience I have the feeling that all Mediterranean people are better performers verbally, more extroverted, often high in agency (=domination), all should cause a skew to verbal IQ. Finns and Sami for instance have a skew to Visual-spatial IQ, less than East Asians, but more than other Europeans.

    About regression to the mean, I used JayMan's breeding equation, but I looked at it in
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/04/30/how-do-iq-genes-relate-to-the-regression-to-the-mean/
    and it is somewhat more complicated issue. Nevertheless, if Ron Unz estimated that average 115 should have required 130 originally, then he estimated heritability to 50%, which is a bit low. He also ignored education. Say, of this 115 average 8 points is due to efforts in education, to learn English, which e.g. Italian immigrants did not so much do. Genetic IQ need not be so high.

    Very many low IQ Eastern European Jews died during the WWII, so now there is a selection for higher IQ, still in Israel Ashkenazi Jewish total IQ is 103.5 and part of it is environmental. Just start downplaying genetic explanations for 1000 years of development. Genetic explanations are valid for IQ differences that came in 50,000 years. That is sure, but the selection that raised Ashkenazi Jewish IQ, it was sad, they left the dumber to die. Pre-Zionists, that is, they were the true anti-Semites.
    , @j2
    I just add some comments to the previous issues:

    Consider the pressure on a population which had to send boys to army. They could select whom to send from the village and as in army you mostly are wasted for the community, they very probably chose the stupid ones. Very many Finns were taken to fight in the Swedish army, still this selection did not much increase IQ. (All Finns were considered stupid but the IQ has increased through education since those times.) Therefore I very much doubt the mechanism of lower IQ Jews not being able to marry causing much increase in IQ. Most Jewish men had to marry if practically all Jewish women were married and it was monogamy. Jews were not taken to army.

    Consider the proposed explanation of increased IQ by persecution. Arabs and Sub Saharan tribes persecuted Sub Saharan Africans, caught them and sold them as slaves. This did not increase Sub Saharan African IQ. Indeed, descendants of those who did not escape have today higher IQ. So, is it that the more stupid manage to escape? Then persecution decreased Jewish IQ.

    Still consider the idiotic (I would use the word here) explanation that the Jewish IQ rose because men, who did not learn to read, were excluded from mating. Nearly everybody learns how to read if taught. Those who cannot are so limited that their low mental abilities stopped them form marrying also in societies which did not have a written language.

    All these natural selection explanations for Ashkenazi Jewish IQ are questionable. It is like somebody is trying to invent a justification for the over-representation of Jews in higher education and high-pay jobs. These explanations are not scientific, they are elements of deception. Education has a major role in IQ differences between populations from the same main race.

    The IQ differences between main races are caused by IQ increasing mutations, which are rare events. There can be a selection event, such as happened with Ashkenazi Jews moving selectively to the USA, but those are special events. Mostly it is other mechanisms. European Jews got a higher IQ from admixture with Europeans. Eurasians got higher IQ quite possibly by admixture with Neanderthals. Neanderthals and Modern humans got different IQ by mutations over a long time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @j2
    Wally wrote:
    "That’s it? That’s your response?
    LOL
    I’ve nailed you with my question, and that’s your best shot."

    OK Wally, I was joking, I actually do NOT find those trolls all that intelligent. But as you nailed me with a question "What, or who gives you the impression that “Ashkenazi Jews might have a higher IQ?", I will answer it.

    Ashkenazi Jews had normal Mediterranean European IQ in Europe when they still lived in Tsar's Russia. Migration to the USA was selective: people, who moved were professional people, who could not find work because of new restrictions. Their IQ was higher than the average. Often it is other way, people who move are less intelligent and cannot find work (this was so for Poles, poor people from the mountains moved more often, less educated ones), but because of the new restrictions it was more intelligent Jews who moved. Additionally it seems that 1M Jews from Russia moved after the IQ tests were used for screening immigrants to the USA. They did not move as Russian Jews but through another country as non-Jewish inhabitants of the other country.

    Because of this selective migration, the average IQ of American Ashkenazi Jews seems to be about 108. The reason is that only few Jews with below 100 IQ migrated. (Cut off the part below 100 from a normal distribution and calculate the average, it is 112.) As this is the reason, there are twice as many Jews above some range, like 151, than non-Jewish whites, which is what Terman found. Twice as much means that US Jews mostly lack those below IQ 100. It also means that they do actually not have any more super-intelligent people, as those below IQ 100 do not count.

    I base these considerations on Wordsum results. You can read my argument from:
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/02/21/a-short-note-on-the-iq-of-american-ashkenazi-jews/

    As a short summary, ignoring this selection, I think Ashkenazi Jews are not any more intelligent than Mediterranean Europeans and they have a typical Mediterranean skew to verbal IQ. In research projects it was always best to work with Northern Europeans, not with these good performers and talkers, but doers. There were two Jews in these projects with me, they were not any more intelligent than the others, they were talkers.

    I don’t think you are right about Jewish immigrants to the US before 1925 being usually from the brighter half. A very large number were illiterate apart from any other argument. What is more regression toward the mean requires the immigrants average IQ to have been about 100 + 2x if the average IQ of American Jews is 100 + x and the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews generally is 100. If <100 then the argument is even stronger.

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    • Replies: @j2
    "I don’t think you are right about Jewish immigrants to the US before 1925 being usually from the brighter half. A very large number were illiterate apart from any other argument. What is more regression toward the mean requires the immigrants average IQ to have been about 100 + 2x if the average IQ of American Jews is 100 + x and the average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews generally is 100. If <100 then the argument is even stronger."

    In the post that I wrote
    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/02/21/a-short-note-on-the-iq-of-american-ashkenazi-jews/
    there is a plot from Razib Khan's post. This plot is based on Wordsum results and it is very probably the same results that lead Richard Lynn to conclude that American Jewish IQ has average 107.5 and from the distribution he concluded that there was selection for those migrating to the USA. I conclude the same. The plot is not normally distributed. (It is not truncated from high IQ part, see Khan's plots for the rich, they stay up in the right side, this does go down) Almost anything is normally distributed (a mathematical theorem with weak assumptions). For this plot not to be normally distributed there are very few possible reasons and the only one making any sense is selection, just like Lynn concluded.

    You make the incorrect assumption that all American Jews immigrated before 1925. There was a million who came between 1921 and 1939 that your statistics does not show, but you can deduce it from the population figures.

    For the time from 1921 to 1939 the immigrants had to pass an IQ test. First is was just a puzzle. (When I was an exchange student in the USA I was asked to solve this famous puzzle by a school teacher, it is not at all difficult, but maybe screens some below 100 people.) Later it was an IQ test. I conclude there was 1M Jews who secretly migrated to the USA in this time from the growth of the US Jewish population.

    Before that there was no selection in the US side, but as competent Jews had lost their jobs in Russia, they had to look for work somewhere. Stupid Jews usually did not have the money for a boat ticket. Certainly there was selection, like there was a selection of Scottish, Lynn measured that the American Scottish are considerably higher IQ than in the Great Britain and proposed selection as the reason. I agree. That is, before 1925 there was a selection because intelligent Russian Jews had lost their jobs, but they had money to move to the USA. This selection does not exclude migration of low IQ Jews to the USA, but changes the portions.

    We can conclude there was a selection for higher IQ. It does not exclude the possibility that some, even many, low IQ Jews did immigrate to the USA, like the existence of some strong women does not mean anything to the conclusion that men are stronger than women.

    The mean from the above IQ 100 distribution is 112. Regression to the mean, assuming 60% heritability, reduces it to 0.6*12+100=107.2, which is exactly what we see. Lynn estimated US Ashkenazi IQ to 107.5, (before the establishment told him to move it up to 110.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @j2
    Wizard wrote:
    "I don’t suppose there is any area of science or engineering where I can claim more to you but I do know enough to prep an expert witness and I am not convinced you can justify your denial that an extra 1000 tons or so on top of a weakened area would be unrelated to time taken for collapse. Let me put it this way: if the steel structures which had to cease supporting the building above had reached through heat a point where it had lost 75 per cent of the original strength maybe 2 X tons of potential energy would be needed to cause collapse whereas only X tons would be needed if, through further heating, 90 per cent had been lost."

    You might well convince the jury in a court room, but I do not think engineers would buy this argument, because they would naturally agree with what you said but then they would continue to estimate the time between these two events. If you get the steel bars to 400 Celsius, when it still has not lost any of its strength, it will not take long to get it to 650 Celsius when half of the strength has gone. Try heating lead, it is the easiest metal to try at home. For a long time nothing happens, but when lead starts to soften it very soon melts.

    The trick is to get those steelbars to 425 Celsius when they start to soften. To get them so hot you need a major fire in the building lasting for a long time, but once you already have this major fire, the temperature of the steel easily rises close to 1000 Celsius, which is the burning temperature of jet fuel and office fires. Why would it not rise, if it rose so high?

    That is, normally you do not get steelbars to 400 Celsius because heat escapes by conduction and radiation, but if you got the conditions that put in heat in faster than it gets out (it is hot everywhere, heat cannot escape), the temperature of the steel will rise very fast. Think about the lead example. It takes a long time to get it to soften, since the heat conducts to the whole piece. You have to rise the temperature of all your lead to the softening point, but then it is all hot and heat cannot escape to cooler places, so it fast gets hotter.

    Thank you witness :-)

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  • We celebrate July 4 each year as the anniversary of America’s declaration of independence from Great Britain. For many Americans, the day has become little more than another holiday, a day off from work, and a time to barbecue with family and friends. The Declaration of Independence and the day we set aside to commemorate...
  • @Jake
    "Original sin of slavery' is at best a statement of Christian heresy used by the ignorant.

    No I wasn’t writing for a pure medievalist Christian like you Jake, just using a convenient metaphorical shorthand that most would understand and, even in the South, probably not object to as a reference to something the United States would have been better without and which led to long lasting evils.

    OT but interesting on slavery was the part of a documentary on North Aftican/Arab/Muslim slave trading which told me two things I didn’t know and are probably true. One is that the death rate crossing the desert was higher than on the Middle Passage. The other that there was less violence than might be thought because there were – AND ARE!! – large numbers of slave families who have just internalized their slave status as their destiny.

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    • Replies: @Them Guys
    Far less violence against slaves by slave owners due to when back then they paid from $300 to as high as $2200+ Per a single male slave....It was akin to todays farmers buying a John Deere Tractor that today costs from $40,000 to double or more that amount. It is accurate to multiply those slave era prices by a factor of at least 25 to 30 Times to get todays equal per slave cost. Plus constant feeding of and maintenance costs per slave.

    Therefore no sane cost wise slave owner in their right mind would Bull Whip every slave from 6-AM until about 9-PM, and then Gang Rape the female slaves after a daily bull whipping, and beat with fists and feet the male slaves until bed time around midnite. And do that 24/7/365, as we have constantly been told as truth via every tv msm, and documentary show, and Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson.

    Lies, Lies, Lies....and yet More slavery issue Lies.

    Yes of course one must consider there is always a few bad slave owners that are typical sadistic minded racists etc....But that's not the norm nor an average by far.

    Ever drive past a country rural farm, and pull off side of road to watch while some delusional farmer guy spends his early morning beating his john deere costly tractor half to death, with a large heavy Sledge Hammer?....Nope, and you wont see that happen in a hundred years either. Due to so expensive of a tractor the farmer owner guy is likely to house and care for his new tractor better than his own kids and wife!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
  • @The Alarmist
    Tell them 13 of the operators of the North American British franchise decided they no longer wanted to pay their franchise fees. That will get their dander up enough to recall the history beaten into them in the indoctrination camps we call public schools in the US.

    Nice :-)

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  • Nicholas II & family, 1914. Colorized by Olga. As the perfect companion piece to his takedown of Stalin, here’s Egor Kholmogorov's appraisal of Nicholas II, styled an “anti-Stalin”, written during his recent trip to Crimea, which provoked another round of teeth-gnashing among Neo-Stalinists and Sovietophiles. It should also be norws that a recent poll shows...
  • @Colin Wright
    'Khrushchev also...'

    Yeah, but...

    It could have been worse. Khrushchev could have also been like the Kims of Korea, and simply continued in the path laid down by his predecessor.

    To be frank, 'greatest Russian leader of the Twentieth Century' doesn't offer a very appealing selection. Stolypin really was the best I could come up with. The winner certainly wasn't bloody Tsar Nicholas II, the Indecisive.

    I agree with that.

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    • Disagree: Wizard of Oz
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  • I have just spent a couple of days in New York City. Returning to Virginia on Wednesday morning, I had a somewhat strange experience. I cleared through my emails before leaving the hotel and also read through a number of the featured news articles. One, in particular, caught my eye. It described how the Democratic...
  • @j2
    Wizard writes:
    "Well, if the explanation for the second tower to be hit coming down first was amended to note that there was the weight of many more floors above the point of impact would you still use the word “idiotic”? How otherwise do you explain the timing? I presume you don’t think each plane hit at exactly the levels which some plotters had relied on????"

    The timing of a controlled demolition is determined by the person pressing the button. It does not need any technical explanation.

    I discard the gravitational fall theory for a number of reasons. Here are three, but there are more:
    1) the extremely temperatures long time after 9/11. I remember well when these were told in the news in my country, it was long before any 911Truthers proposed controlled demolition. High temperatures long after the event are best explained by very high temperatures just after the event, which suggests thermite, or something similar causing very high temperatures, 3000 Celsius or so.
    2) Throwing material sideways and up is impossible for gravitation. The videos and photos may be falsified, but if so, they were falsified by the ones proposing the official explanation. The collapse in the videos does not at all resemble a gravitational fall, which you can see e.g. in icebergs.
    3) The pancaking theory is false. I did read the paper by Bazant and a student. The equations are fine, the values set to them are not fine. I agree with 911Truthers concerning Bazant's article.

    I do not indeed think the planes hit exactly on planned places, I also do not think the planes caused the collapse. I also find your suggestion for timing very odd: if fires had weakened the steel and that caused the collapse of one floor, then it is completely irrelevant how many stores were above the level. The time would be determined by the time to heat the steel to the point that is loses strength. The time would likely be different in different towers, but mainly because isolation material would be differently thorn, the fuel would be in different places and so on. The weight above the floor would not much matter since before the collapse the structure can keep it up, and if the temperature rises enough then it cannot. Fire can bring down a building, but the way it came down looks very suspicious. It looks like a fountain throwing material up.

    I would still use the word "idiotic" for any suggestion that the fall was by gravitation. I would also use the same word for your elaboration of the suggestion by the timing consideration, though in some other topics I acknowledge the reason and knowledge in your comments. And I especially liked the news that one hijacker's passport landed on the ground so nicely and that Mossad had a team videoing the event before the plane hit the tower. Both things are so typical for a gravitational collapse but only in the USA.

    I don’t suppose there is any area of science or engineering where I can claim more to you but I do know enough to prep an expert witness and I am not convinced you can justify your denial that an extra 1000 tons or so on top of a weakened area would be unrelated to time taken for collapse. Let me put it this way: if the steel structures which had to cease supporting the building above had reached through heat a point where it had lost 75 per cent of the original strength maybe 2 X tons of potential energy would be needed to cause collapse whereas only X tons would be needed if, through further heating, 90 per cent had been lost.

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    • Replies: @j2
    Wizard wrote:
    "I don’t suppose there is any area of science or engineering where I can claim more to you but I do know enough to prep an expert witness and I am not convinced you can justify your denial that an extra 1000 tons or so on top of a weakened area would be unrelated to time taken for collapse. Let me put it this way: if the steel structures which had to cease supporting the building above had reached through heat a point where it had lost 75 per cent of the original strength maybe 2 X tons of potential energy would be needed to cause collapse whereas only X tons would be needed if, through further heating, 90 per cent had been lost."

    You might well convince the jury in a court room, but I do not think engineers would buy this argument, because they would naturally agree with what you said but then they would continue to estimate the time between these two events. If you get the steel bars to 400 Celsius, when it still has not lost any of its strength, it will not take long to get it to 650 Celsius when half of the strength has gone. Try heating lead, it is the easiest metal to try at home. For a long time nothing happens, but when lead starts to soften it very soon melts.

    The trick is to get those steelbars to 425 Celsius when they start to soften. To get them so hot you need a major fire in the building lasting for a long time, but once you already have this major fire, the temperature of the steel easily rises close to 1000 Celsius, which is the burning temperature of jet fuel and office fires. Why would it not rise, if it rose so high?

    That is, normally you do not get steelbars to 400 Celsius because heat escapes by conduction and radiation, but if you got the conditions that put in heat in faster than it gets out (it is hot everywhere, heat cannot escape), the temperature of the steel will rise very fast. Think about the lead example. It takes a long time to get it to soften, since the heat conducts to the whole piece. You have to rise the temperature of all your lead to the softening point, but then it is all hot and heat cannot escape to cooler places, so it fast gets hotter.
    , @j2
    Or let me put it another way. 911Truthers say (I have not check, but nobody has denied) that only 4 steel frame skyscrapers in all times have collapsed because of fire (3 in 9/11 and one in Brazil 2018) and many of these buildings burned long. It means that the steel frame in the other buildings never softened, did not reach 500-700 Celsius, because heating steel the heat escapes unless the beams are very thin. You get a heat gradient, but if you put in less heat than can escape.

    It is like pouring water to a bowl with a hole in the bottom. If you pour less than can go out, it just does not fill. But if you pour faster, then the water level rises and it rises quite fast. So, you need a major fire to get the steel to 425 Celsius when it starts to soften, but if you get it there, you must be putting in more heat than can go out and therefore the steel temperature will rise fast to the temperature of your fire. There should not be much time between steel starting to soften and steel losing 50% of its strength.

    There are measurements that the steel in WTC buildings did not get to high enough temperatures to lose enough strength. But my main argument was that what determines how high the steel temperature goes is how badly thorn is heat isolation and how big are the fires. These things should have been different in the towers and they do not depend on how many stores were above the plane (or something). There are too many things wrong with the official 9/11 story. It cannot be defended outside a kangaroo court.
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  • Nicholas II & family, 1914. Colorized by Olga. As the perfect companion piece to his takedown of Stalin, here’s Egor Kholmogorov's appraisal of Nicholas II, styled an “anti-Stalin”, written during his recent trip to Crimea, which provoked another round of teeth-gnashing among Neo-Stalinists and Sovietophiles. It should also be norws that a recent poll shows...
  • @Anatoly Karlin

    The citation is right there in the chart. If you think the data is incorrect you should explain why.
     
    Because to be very frank having late Soviet incomes be at 70% of Western European levels is implausible.

    Detailed apples to apples consumption basket comparisons, e.g. the impressive series of blog posts by Jose Luis Rincon, have shown that the USSR was at 25% to a third of the US level. Consequently, USSR could not have been at more than 50% of the Western European level at the very most.

    Incomes in the USSR, especially post-1950s, were much more evenly distributed than in the Russian Empire - that is true enough. But consumption accounted for a much lower share of the total. And what you had in the shops did not correlate well with what people actually wanted. Low income differentials masked high differentials in terms of access.

    Or perhaps Russia would’ve followed Argentina – rapid industrial growth followed by … not much. Or maybe it would’ve been rapid growth followed by 30 years of chaos and then followed by a Communist dictatorship – like China. What is certain is that Great Depression (or some event like that) would’ve hit Russia disproportionately hard due to its high dependence on foreign investments.
     
    1. Unlikely, considering Russian IQ is almost 10 points higher. A more reasonable comparison would be to Spain.

    2. Unlikely. By that point, it would make it by far the world's most developed country to fall to Communism (excluded cases where it was imposed by outside force).

    3. Correct. However, a temporary (of the major Powers, only France had failed to recover its 1929 GDP by 1939, and only by a small margin) unemployment-driven depression is highly distinct from decades' worth of accumulated distortions, which had made the USSR into a continent-sized rustbelt by the 1970s.

    A close relation of mine went to a big cultural event in 1981 in Moscow and St Petrrsburg where she was provided with a personal interpreter, a Jewish woman. She was quizzed about her life in Australia and the mention of the commonplace fact of having not just one car but two cars in the family and a holiday house as well as a city house was just disbelieved as being what all Western delegates were told to say in the Soviet Union.

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    • Replies: @AP
    When my uncle from Ukraine came to visit in 1981, we drove past a factory with a huge parking lot full of workers' cars. His first instinct, was that this must have been for show - the government or someone placed those cars there to make it look like each worker could afford these large extremely-luxurious-by-Soviet-standards American cars.
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  • @jilles dykstra
    I do not see mentioned the pre 1914 secret agreements between GB, France and the tsar to carve up three empires: the German, the Habsburg and the Ottoman.
    Trotski found the treaty's in 1917 and published them.
    WWI was the end of the Russian monarchy.
    The carving up was a great success, Wilson's war 'to end all wars' led to endless wars.
    As Churchill said 'it is best to see the whole period 1914 as one long war'.
    At the end of this long war all old empires had gone.
    The new ones were USA, USSR and China.
    At present we see the end of the USA empire.
    'War', a historian wrote, 'is the way politicians dispose of superfluous wealth'.

    Tell us about those secret treaties.

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  • @Dmitry

    I still have a hard time picking out which is Tsar Nicholas II and which is King George V in the photos of them together.
     
    Lol, looking online at the photos of them together, it is true, when young, they are almost twins.

    But there is a case of many intermarriages in their family, over a number of generations (so they are different kinds of cousins of each other, in multiple different ways), and also they are wearing the same clothing and beards.

    King George V of United Kingdom (left) and Nicholas II of Russia (right).

    http://cont.ws/uploads/pic/2017/5/xZKTBnRjQ_w.jpg

    https://cdni.rt.com/files/2017.11/original/5a006325fc7e93be4e8b4567.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ff/6a/b6/ff6ab6cb248373cee58a15d61efa907c.jpg

    Nicholas II (left) and George V (right)

    https://i.imgur.com/e2BzP9v.jpg

    https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/King-George-V-and-his-physically-similar-cousin-Tsar-Nicholas-II-of-Russia-in-German-military-uniforms-in-Berlin-1913-small.jpg

    Thanks. Very amusing.

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  • We celebrate July 4 each year as the anniversary of America’s declaration of independence from Great Britain. For many Americans, the day has become little more than another holiday, a day off from work, and a time to barbecue with family and friends. The Declaration of Independence and the day we set aside to commemorate...
  • @Dan Hayes
    A very succinct refutation of the pernicious ideas of Harry Jaffa & Co.

    I was intuitively suspicious of Jaffa's ideas and disciples when years ago I first became acquainted with them in the National Review. These suspicions proved correct in reading this essay.

    Thank you for mentioning Jaffa. I had to look him up. Only Wikipedia so far but I found something of interest that you might like to comment on. Mention is made of Lincoln rejecting the Douglas arguments for states’s rights on the ground that (majoritarian) democracy should not be allowed to enslave anyone. Is it possible to say that America’s original sin of slavery ensured that there was an insoluble problem left behind by the original constitution makers plus the extension of the franchise to all adult white males?

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    • Replies: @Jake
    "Original sin of slavery' is at best a statement of Christian heresy used by the ignorant.
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  • Publisher: Cambridge University Press Online publication date: January 2018 Print publication year: 2018 Online ISBN: 9781316817049 I do not wish to quote myself too often, but in my 2013 review of Sternberg’s Handbook of Intelligence I raised an eyebrow about how often he quoted himself, and by means of an internal citation count questioned whether...
  • Don’t Africans who score higher on IQ tests do better on average at activities widely valued than Africans who score much lower? Earning a living, passing exams into and at local educational institutions, advancing in the police force and armed services, obtaining a foreign country’s visa etc.?

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  • @Okechukwu

    Of course, it’s culture that prevents Africans from solving biased IQ tests like this one:
     
    Who determines the answer to that puzzle? You could give dozens of answers that are either right or wrong depending on what the constructor has determined to be the right or wrong answers.

    So you really believe that this kind of absurd, arbitrary garbage is going to determine someone's level of intelligence? And you're running your mouth about the supposed low intelligence of Africans? LOL. Well, while you're playing with pegs like a 2 year old, that African might very well think circles around you with regard to real life situations requiring quick wits and mental agility.

    All you IQist morons should calm down. We simply don't know enough about human intelligence to make the sweeping proclamations you all are wont to make.

    Don’t Africans who score higher on IQ tests do better on average at activities widely valued than Africans who score much lower? Earning a living, passing exams into and at local educational institutions, advancing in the police force and armed services etc.?

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  • @Stan d Mute

    My views at intelligence stories, and of course tests, is that they’re biased, based on western culture.

     

    Of course, it’s culture that prevents Africans from solving biased IQ tests like this one:

    http://www.wisdomenough.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/blog-square-peg-board1.jpg

    What is the question and what is the answer to that puzzle?

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  • As we all know Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned by polonium, a rare radioactive substance. The main narrative blamed it all on Vladimir Putin of Russia. The rationale rested on little other than because Litvinenko was a Putin critic. This was the quick line in mass media, and it was on all the typical war propaganda...
  • @AnonFromTN
    See my reply to FKA Max.
    However, I know that nothing can shake the faith of a true believer, particularly the reality. If you sincerely believe what you are writing here, I have a mountain to sell you.

    Arrogance can reach the point of plain barminess. Not to read what I wrote before writing your non responsive** reply is worrying evidence.

    ** non responsive is a judge’s – or counsel’s) euphemistic way of saying a witness is not answering the question – a stage before deciding the witness is lying, emotionally driven or incurably stupid.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    My response to you is based on the assumption that you are not a paid troll, but an honestly deluded person, which may or may not be the case. In the latter case your behavior is incongruous: if you really believe BBC and the rest of MSM, what are you doing on this site?!

    I must confess that I used to believe Western MSM once. I swallowed line, hook, and sinker their stories about Moscow uprising in 1993, and the wars in former Yugoslavia. My revelation came in 2014, when the “reporting” about Ukraine started. I was born and grew up there, I have friends and relatives as far West as Lvov, as far East as Lugansk, and in several places in between, so I know the reality of that unfortunate country very well. That’s how I know that 90% of the stories in the Western MSM about Ukraine are lies and blatant lies, with the remaining 10% containing facts twisted beyond recognition. Then I started questioning the rest. I happen to personally know people living in Moscow and in various parts of former Yugoslavia. Talking to them I discovered that the Western MSM (including your beloved BBC) lied through their teeth about these events, as well. Now I won’t believe a word BBC, NYT, and others of their ilk are saying.

    Not to mention that you start noticing things when you pay attention. When the same story with the same pictures appears on the BBC site, on the CNN site, in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Times, The Guardian, The Independent, and several other MSM, you have little doubt about the provenance of the boilerplate.

    You explain closing comments by purely economic reasons. I have read the comments at the BBC site and in The Guardian when they still had them. Despite their attempts at censorship, the great majority of commenters questioned (sometimes rudely) clumsy propaganda pushed by those outlets. Therefore, I have a different explanation why BBC closed comments, The Guardian allows them only on stories nobody gives a hoot about (this is not just my opinion – I read comments on the Daily Mail and The Independent sites from “refugees” from The Guardian), and now The Independent is well advanced on the same path. This is too familiar to someone born in the USSR: it is hard pushing lies, you cannot afford to let dissenters have their say.

    The uniformity of opinion in the Western MSM today reminds one of the worst times of Stalin’s or Hitler’s dictatorship. Even in the USSR under Brezhnev there was more variety. Compared to that, today’s Russia has boundless freedom of speech. From my perspective, this uniformity further undermines the credibility of Western MSM.

    Anyway, this is my last answer to you. I am putting you on the list of people to ignore. You can hardly be proud of it: that “Wally” personage you mentioned is on that list.
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  • I have just spent a couple of days in New York City. Returning to Virginia on Wednesday morning, I had a somewhat strange experience. I cleared through my emails before leaving the hotel and also read through a number of the featured news articles. One, in particular, caught my eye. It described how the Democratic...
  • @j2
    Momus writes:
    "Bin Ladens Western hating crazies who had learned to steer planes crashed them into the WTC buildings causing great structural damage and ensuing fires.
    The heat from these fires made the steel columns and trusses red hot; weakening them and the concrete floor slabs. The weight of the 30 or so floors above the red hot weakened section stressed the structure to it’s failure point and the forces unleashed by the tens of thousands of tonnes of building collapsing pancaked the whole lot.
    The second plane was travelling much faster than the first so despite hitting 20 or so minutes later the structural damage was greater and building 2 collapsed first.
    There it is; the summation of the reports by the best engineers."

    This is an idiotic explanation. If you cannot see it, get a master's degree in engineering (I have one also in engineering, there is no way it was a gravitation collapse, throws too heavy material up and sideways).

    Well, if the explanation for the second tower to be hit coming down first was amended to note that there was the weight of many more floors above the point of impact would you still use the word “idiotic”? How otherwise do you explain the timing? I presume you don’t think each plane hit at exactly the levels which some plotters had relied on????

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    Wizard writes:
    "Well, if the explanation for the second tower to be hit coming down first was amended to note that there was the weight of many more floors above the point of impact would you still use the word “idiotic”? How otherwise do you explain the timing? I presume you don’t think each plane hit at exactly the levels which some plotters had relied on????"

    The timing of a controlled demolition is determined by the person pressing the button. It does not need any technical explanation.

    I discard the gravitational fall theory for a number of reasons. Here are three, but there are more:
    1) the extremely temperatures long time after 9/11. I remember well when these were told in the news in my country, it was long before any 911Truthers proposed controlled demolition. High temperatures long after the event are best explained by very high temperatures just after the event, which suggests thermite, or something similar causing very high temperatures, 3000 Celsius or so.
    2) Throwing material sideways and up is impossible for gravitation. The videos and photos may be falsified, but if so, they were falsified by the ones proposing the official explanation. The collapse in the videos does not at all resemble a gravitational fall, which you can see e.g. in icebergs.
    3) The pancaking theory is false. I did read the paper by Bazant and a student. The equations are fine, the values set to them are not fine. I agree with 911Truthers concerning Bazant's article.

    I do not indeed think the planes hit exactly on planned places, I also do not think the planes caused the collapse. I also find your suggestion for timing very odd: if fires had weakened the steel and that caused the collapse of one floor, then it is completely irrelevant how many stores were above the level. The time would be determined by the time to heat the steel to the point that is loses strength. The time would likely be different in different towers, but mainly because isolation material would be differently thorn, the fuel would be in different places and so on. The weight above the floor would not much matter since before the collapse the structure can keep it up, and if the temperature rises enough then it cannot. Fire can bring down a building, but the way it came down looks very suspicious. It looks like a fountain throwing material up.

    I would still use the word "idiotic" for any suggestion that the fall was by gravitation. I would also use the same word for your elaboration of the suggestion by the timing consideration, though in some other topics I acknowledge the reason and knowledge in your comments. And I especially liked the news that one hijacker's passport landed on the ground so nicely and that Mossad had a team videoing the event before the plane hit the tower. Both things are so typical for a gravitational collapse but only in the USA.

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  • @Momus

    There is no element named “Americicium”.
     
    No it is Americium 43; an obvious typo.

    Molten steel was seen leaking out of one of the twin towers in the moments before it collapsed, and it was found in pockets underground even weeks after the event
     
    Laughable wackadoodle gabage mate . Really? Who saw it? What was the heat source if according to you the fuel fires were smouldering?

    Molten steel solidifies very rapidly in ambient conditions, to stay liquid for weeks would require enormous energy.

    I'll tell you what happened:

    Bin Ladens Western hating crazies who had learned to steer planes crashed them into the WTC buildings causing great structural damage and ensuing fires.

    The heat from these fires made the steel columns and trusses red hot; weakening them and the concrete floor slabs. The weight of the 30 or so floors above the red hot weakened section stressed the structure to it's failure point and the forces unleashed by the tens of thousands of tonnes of building collapsing pancaked the whole lot.

    The second plane was travelling much faster than the first so despite hitting 20 or so minutes later the structural damage was greater and building 2 collapsed first.

    There it is; the summation of the reports by the best engineers. No need to to display your complete ignorance and soft headed acceptance of lunar orbiting wackadoodles any longer. ;-)

    You shouldn’t waste your time on someone who bothers to correct, curtly, your obvious typo up front.

    May I suggest a correction or addition to your explanation for why the second of the towers to be struck came down first, namely that there was the weight of many more floors above the level of impact. Indeed it is that correlation which is one of the many strong points against the controlled demolition theories.

    PS Have you ever found a truther explaining exactly where demolition charges were laid in each of WTCs 1,2 and 7?

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    • Replies: @Momus

    May I suggest a correction or addition to your explanation for why the second of the towers to be struck came down first, namely that there was the weight of many more floors above the level of impact. Indeed it is that correlation which is one of the many strong points against the controlled demolition theories.
     
    Thanks Wiz. Yes, the extra weight was a major factor there.

    Until recently it was inconceivable to me that people were seriously suggesting, and without a skerrick of hard evidence, that explosives or nanothermite brought down the towers.
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  • @jilles dykstra
    If any country behaves suicidal, it is, in my opinion, Israel.
    In any vote at UN assemblies Israel is condemned all the time.

    So….? And….?

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  • @ChuckOrloski
    With weaponized cunning, InZitatus wrote:
    "Disproportionately powerful, deadly weapons – F-35s or sniper rifles – can, in ease of use, corrupt all that possess them. They easily become the first option, rather than last resort. US ‘Shock and Awe’ in Iraq 2003 is a good example."

    Hi InZit,
    As you are aware, the first weapon-of-choice to take down the three (3) W.T.C. towers on 9/11 were nuclear.

    (Zigh) To date, intelligent, conscientious, and patriotic Americans remain Shocked & Awed at how passenger airplane jet fuel is blamed for the best towers become "pancake."

    Fyi, soon after the September 11, 2001 attack, two of my fellow (Harrisburg-based) Haz-Mat emergency response work colleagues, Mike B. and Trey B., were dispatched to "Ground Zero" and tasked with pumping millions of gallons out of the Verizon building's basement.

    Upon completing the operation Trey B. wrote me a letter along with on-scene photos.

    Knowledgeable about what hazardous (combustible) materials could do to a building structure, Trey was reasonably dismayed at having witnessed molten steel remnants.

    Months afterward, we talked and surmised that a percentage of the tower remnant steel could not get accepted for recycling at a U.S.-based (regulated) facility due to existence of radioactive isotopes. We understood reasons why "contractors" elected to ship the radioactive metal to perhaps a less strictly regulated scrap recycling business in China.

    Please refer to video below which depicts 9/11 Haz-Mat cleanup workers who donned OSHA personal-protective-equipment while on the job. (Zigh) Did Camp X-Ray's incarcerated "mastermind" KSM have the attack airplane's jet fuel enhanced with radioactive octane, supreme?

    Please don’t pollute people’s civil conversation with such irrelevant barely legible rubbish.

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    • Replies: @ChuckOrloski
    Considering the uncivil source, Wizard of Oz bestowed upon me very desirable review & request: "Please don’t pollute people’s civil conversation with such irrelevant barely legible rubbish."

    Hi Wizard,

    Thanks very much for caring & having described my comments as "irrelevant barely legible rubbish."

    (zzZigh) To better understand the glory & benefit of Light & it's byproduct enlightenment, it's good to contrast such with Darkness & it's byproduct endarkenment.

    Will continue to follow your weird & deceptive exchanges here @ U.R. comments! (zzzZigh)

    Have a nice day, Oz. And thanks again.
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  • @jacques sheete

    Clearly, they do not give Nobel Prizes for having a high IQ.

     

    True.

    They give them for extraordinary results,
     
    As long as their results benefit the clique that dispenses the prizes.

    I suspect that Obama's "peace" prize is a classic example of how the Nobel BS works.

    If you are interested as you seem to be you could explore the subject and tell us about the various institutions in Sweden (the sciences and literature, but also, quite separately, the Economics Nobel) and in Norway – Peace.

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  • Publisher: Cambridge University Press Online publication date: January 2018 Print publication year: 2018 Online ISBN: 9781316817049 I do not wish to quote myself too often, but in my 2013 review of Sternberg’s Handbook of Intelligence I raised an eyebrow about how often he quoted himself, and by means of an internal citation count questioned whether...
  • @Bardon Kaldian

    However, they correlate 0.7. I think Stanovich has failed to substantiate his extensive claims.
     
    Let's see. We have "intelligence" & "critical thinking". If these words mean anything resembling our everyday experience, then, we're in trouble. It is very well known that Einstein, P.A.M. Dirac,..were completely uncritical re Soviet Union, and Heisenberg, Pascual Jordan, Rolf Nevanlinna, Heidegger, Debye...as well as C.G.Jung in earlier phases equally apologetic with regard to Nazi Germany.

    From 1925- 1956, most of Western intelligentsia, including scientists, writers, philosophers....were Soviet apologists ready to believe each & every nonsense that exalted USSR.

    I other words, either redefine those two words, or admit that IQ & critical thinking do not have any correlation at all.

    Interesting examples. May I draw attention to the phenomenon or at least likelihood of people whose high IQs make them conscious of the crudity of many other people’s expressions of opinion seeking to counter that crudity. So, one tendency is to look for more complicated explanations or justifications for what others abruptly reject as if by instinct, even presuming that there might be a higher degree of rationality amongst criticized leaders. One might think that Stalin and Hitler didn’t offer the chances to forgive and explain them that Donald Trump (and India’s PM for another example in a sort of democracy) do to their intelligent apologists. But hindsight is marvellous.

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  • As we all know Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned by polonium, a rare radioactive substance. The main narrative blamed it all on Vladimir Putin of Russia. The rationale rested on little other than because Litvinenko was a Putin critic. This was the quick line in mass media, and it was on all the typical war propaganda...
  • @AnonFromTN
    Am I supposed to believe that BBC, created and wholly owned by the UK, is not propaganda?! I am not that crazy. They must be particularly unbiased in cases involving their source of funding, the UK government. Give me a break. The fact that BBC closed comments on their website years ago further demonstrates how seriously they take their own stories.

    You must be either incredibly naïve, or your views are determined by your paymaster. In either case, my sincere condolences.

    And again “without comment” under the heading about police saying the couple probably handled a contaminated container only a few kilometers from where the Skripal poisoning took place

    https://www.ft.com/content/2d8dd476-8026-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d via FT

    As Porton Down is not far away I am surprised that I haven’t come across suggestions that the material might have come from Porton Down even if only from the loony fringe for whom mundane reality is not exciting enough. Maybe someone more attentive to these earth shattering events will tell me that I just haven’t been paying attention.

    I think the FT is now Japanese owned. No doubt someone can make something of that.

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    See my reply to FKA Max.
    However, I know that nothing can shake the faith of a true believer, particularly the reality. If you sincerely believe what you are writing here, I have a mountain to sell you.
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  • @ploni almoni
    You can achieve the exact same deterrent effect with a few pennies of lead. But keep thinking, it may lead somewhere.

    Yes indeed, keep thinking. If you want to send a message that a powerful state, with unlimited scientific and financial resources, will hunt down traitors/defectors you do something spectacularly out of the ordinary run of commonplace crime.

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  • @AnonFromTN
    Am I supposed to believe that BBC, created and wholly owned by the UK, is not propaganda?! I am not that crazy. They must be particularly unbiased in cases involving their source of funding, the UK government. Give me a break. The fact that BBC closed comments on their website years ago further demonstrates how seriously they take their own stories.

    You must be either incredibly naïve, or your views are determined by your paymaster. In either case, my sincere condolences.

    “naive” is pretty rich coming from a young man who is still so arrogant that he writes as though his speculations are knowledge rather than the product of his unexamined prejudices from whatever aspects of personality or upbringing they derive.

    To start with I specifically offered the BBC link “without comment” for whomever was following Skripal related issues so your “Am I supposed to believe” is puzzling to say the least.

    As to the abolition of the comments function on its website “years ago” (for reasons stated as?) have you ever run a business or managed a budget? Apart from the probability that there are, as for the ABC, plenty of ways of contacting the organisation wrt programs and receiving responses, it would not be surprising that a body with its charter would rightly regard itself as having an onerous duty to moderate the comments coming from its millions of listeners, viewers and readers as well as propagandists taking advantage of the BBC’s vast coverage. That could be very expensive in staff time. Why do you think btw that Takimag has eliminated its Comments? Also it has just occurred to me, Europe doesn’t have a First Amendment to protect the kind of free floating group libels that UR can safely allow. Imagine a Wally on a European website!

    I suppose it is no use telling a young knowall like you who seems to think his knowledge and reasoning on everything are up to the standards of his scientific or professional specialty that I have known a lot of people working in the BBC, the comparable ABC, and other news organizations at senior levels of reporting, production and administration. And I have known the politicians, even on the left of centre, who have been angered at what results from their independence and the inability of boards appointed by government to have much effect. Are you aware that the BBC is still financed by the revenue from wireless licenses? The ABC used to be but now gets a multi year budget allocation from the federal parliament. Despite criticism from many, including politicians, it continues to waste money in ways it chooses including (my particular beef) running a 24 hour TV news service when radio would be all that is needed between 10 PM and 6 am.

    If you knew the people working for organizations like the BBC and ABC you would know that your broadbrush rant is ridiculous.

    By the way, in case you didn’t notice, the article on the BBC website was by the author of a book about the Skripals.

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  • Helsinki after Singapore! The summit Trump-Putin will hopefully take place this month in the Finnish capital, after being delayed and delayed for ages. We had expected the two strong men to meet right away after Trump’s historic election, but the summit didn’t take place, for Trump had been besieged by Mueller’s Gestapo and accused of...
  • @anon
    “Britain fears that President Trump will undermine NATO by striking a “peace deal” with President Putin…
    I think maybe LONDON instead of Britain might have been a better choice? Most British people are against any kind of war.. but the London bankster-backed corporations run the British Empire.. all of it where ever it exist.. just as the Pharaoh bankster backed corporations run the USA..

    Trump and Putin are each among leaders the bankster backed, rule of law invented monopoly powered corporations manipulate. . These corporations are global, larger in size or wealth, than most nations. The lawmakers of the nations states are manipulated to protect these corporations from competition and to give them direct, competition free, access to the markets within. As a result, the corporate managements who occupy, the center of the world nuclear space, are able to communicate with the nation state occupants of the extra-nuclear, satellite space.

    It might be time to look to these corporate manipulators for the answers, since the national leaders are no longer in charge. Excellent article

    It would people form the view that your opinion was worth considering and your factual assertions reliable if you showed yourself aware that the British Empire no longer exists in any meaningful sense. (But maybe you know someone with a company registered in the Virgin Islands).

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  • Recently, YouTube suddenly shut down the If Americans Knew YouTube channel. This contained 70 videos providing facts-based information about Israel-Palestine. People going to the channel saw a message telling them that the site had been terminated for “violating YouTube guidelines”—implying to the public that we were guilty of wrongdoing. And ensuring they didn’t learn about...
  • @Ron Unz

    This site has been jammed all morning across multiple browsers, perfect example of what this article is all about!
     
    Yes, our website was hit by an exceptionally large wave of bots from a very wide variety of different IP addresses, and it began soon after we released this particular article. Perhaps coincidence, perhaps not.

    We finally managed to block them all earlier this morning using some temporary measures. I'll be spending the next day or two adding some further defenses in hopes of preventing something like this from happening in the future.

    Ron, is there any chance someone could make a go of a http://www.banned.com competitor for YouTube, Facebook and any other censors?

    The legal problem of defamation law could presumably be dealt with by making sure that viewers couldn’t miss the message that the site moderator warns that there is a substantial chance that anything posted contains untrue material because the main content of the site is material banned from other sites but made available on BANNED so that viewers can make their own assessment of the impact censoring practices of private businesses my have on First Amendment rights.

    It would surely be possible to attract advertising revenue and changing the published list of those who had been invited to advertise and did advertise on Facebook etc. but declined to BANNED might be of interest to many. Maybe there would be scope for charging for subscriptions, especially for those who wanted notifications when something was posted that had been allegedly banned from X and referred to Y.

    Do you see problems?

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  • @Anon
    Like most elderly enlightenment still fighting the reformation anti catholic old communist useful idiot “ intellectuals” you got it totally wrong about what the Pope said around 1870.

    The Catholic Church never stated that the what the Pope said was true.

    What was stated was that the Pope was the supreme arbiter of matters of Catholic doctrine, faith and morals.

    The Pope is always right about specifically catholic doctrine only as it applies to faith morals.

    The Pope has no authority nor pretensions to, other religions and or secular positions on this or that.

    Being such a great intellectual and historian albeit biased and prejudiced you might look into your own pathetic little country’s history.

    Shortly after the return to the Old Testament known as the reformation, your own Dutch reformed cities and provinces invited the Jewish insurers who had been expelled from Spain in
    From their base in Amsterdam the Jewish usurpers backed by the Dutch Reformed church took over England and N Europe.

    Sorry old man, you can’t be anti Israel, anti Jewish influence and anti catholic at the same time.

    Who fought communism for 70 years? The Catholics. Which churches joined a notorious soviet communist front the World Conference of Churches?

    Every stupid Protestant church in the world despite that it was well known that the WCC was a soviet communist front.

    Do you have any idea how ancient and old fashioned your pseudo intellectual anti Catholicism is? You sound like a 1930s Jewish communist professor.

    And who cares about this Pope. He’ll be dead soon. Didn’t the tiny insignificant Netherlands recognize Israel in the 1940s? And didn’t the Vatican refuse to recognize Israel until very recently?

    Making snide remarks about the one organization on earth that fought detrimental Jewish influence in Europe for 16,00 years and fought the Soviet Union while most Protestant churches gladly joined a well known soviet communist front just shows you are a brainwashed leftist pseudo intellectual

    And what was so remarkable about the Catholic church’s contribution to the defeat of Communism was that it was done without there being any supernatural being to help.

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  • As we all know Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned by polonium, a rare radioactive substance. The main narrative blamed it all on Vladimir Putin of Russia. The rationale rested on little other than because Litvinenko was a Putin critic. This was the quick line in mass media, and it was on all the typical war propaganda...
  • @AnonFromTN

    I always thought that British secret services are fairly competent.
     
    I think you are confusing James Bond movies with reality. I can’t put my finger on a single success of British secret services in the last few decades. I think their hatred of Russia is largely envy: Russian secret services had a lot of successes (including, but not limited to, security at Mondial-2018 and Olympics-2014), whereas Brits appear to be almost as inept as the Ukies.

    You are really going over the top with the number of unsupported assertions you throw in on top of what you know about to make you sound like the hasbarists and amateur propagandists for other countries on UR. E.g. what the hell do you know about British intelligence in recent decades? How can you even expect to have people take you seriously when you blowviate confidently on such a subject? Ask yourself, would you have been able to write about Bletchley Park or Venona in 1955?

    As to whether defectors are only killed in the UK, even if you Googled to do a quick check which I beg to doubt, how do you know that’s true, and if it is true surely logic offers answers like the UK being where ex spies, like Russian oligarchs choose to retire to.

    As enthusiasts for these poisoning stories are probably still reading I proffer without comment this article on the BBC website I have just come across.

    I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

    Salisbury poisoning: Skripals ‘were under Russian surveillance’ – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44717835

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    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Am I supposed to believe that BBC, created and wholly owned by the UK, is not propaganda?! I am not that crazy. They must be particularly unbiased in cases involving their source of funding, the UK government. Give me a break. The fact that BBC closed comments on their website years ago further demonstrates how seriously they take their own stories.

    You must be either incredibly naïve, or your views are determined by your paymaster. In either case, my sincere condolences.
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  • Although my main academic focus was theoretical physics, I always had a very strong interest in history as well, especially that of the Classical Era. Trying to extract the true pattern of events from a collection of source material that was often fragmentary, unreliable, and contradictory was a challenging intellectual exercise, testing my analytical ability....
  • @manorchurch

    FDRs heart condition was well known to insiders. In the last two years of his life his condition deteriorated. DRs and nurses who saw him in the weekly newsreels noticed his condition
     
    Not "heart condition". He died of cerebral hemorrhage likely precipitated by atherosclerosis.

    When someone’s cardiovascular condition was as bad as FDR’s it would increase the chances of early death by stroke as well as heart attack.

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    • Replies: @manorchurch

    When someone’s cardiovascular condition was as bad as FDR’s it would increase the chances of early death by stroke as well as heart attack.
     
    Jeepers, Wiz, calm the hell down! All I did was point out that FDR died from cerebral hemorrhage, not heart attack.
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  • @manorchurch

    The ex Trotskyite Neo cons have to be regarded as one negative set. And look at the extraordinary rise in the number of Americans not professing any religion….. Back to you.
     
    That's a new one -- Trotsky as the perpetrator/instigator of rising American lack of religiosity.

    Those goddamn old commies never stop.

    Your connection, not mine.

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