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Wendy NY. Kroy
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    Interestingly, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey are thought to be only two of the eight epics of the Trojan War, with the Iliad as the second and the Odyssey as the seventh. The six lost epics are attributed to other poets. Presumably they weren't as supremely skilled as Homer, which could explain why they are lost:...
  • According to the Ancients, the greatest of the Lost Books was called “Troy VI: This Time It’s Personal”.

  • I think my 1998 Infiniti I-30 with around 275,000 miles is about through. So, what should I get to replace it?
  • Opera, traditionally, could be Woke in that it's very fluid about body size and age (225 pound and 52 year old women are more likely to get the biggest roles, such as beautiful young Isolde), and to a lesser extent, sex (adult women normally play young boys' roles for reasons similar to why Bart Simpson...
  • And…

    My parents were among the undergraduates who along with Peter Yarrow and others built the Cornell Folk Song Society, which brought in acts like The Kingston Trio, Pete Seeger, and this man, their favorite countertenor (and mine):

  • @Bill Jones
    Let's tuck this piece in here. It's an isteve recurring theme.

    Zero hedge has this piece,

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/how-cut-crime-murder-capital-america

    In the first week of May there were six homicides in Jackson, Mississippi. How many more will there be before the end of the month?
     
    A search of the article discovers one word missing.

    A 5 second scan at this page tells you everything you need to know.

    https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/jacksoncitymississippi/BZA115220

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Answer to “In the first week”, etc.: Assuming the rate remained steady until today and will through tomorrow, I get 24.5 murders for the month. I’m still working out whether the .5 is an unborn victim, a bisected one, a cat, or something else.

    However, I suspect that the second sentence in the quotation is an ancient trick which the writer must think is still clever: It doesn’t read “how many more will there be IN JACKSON before the end of the month”. The “out-of-envelope” figure they’re looking for adds in the rest of the world — so let’s answer “at least in the thousands.”

  • @Amasius
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    I think an essential part of what made the castrato voice so special was the oversized chest and lungs due to macroskelia. Moreschi's voice is simply much more powerful than a woman or a fellow whose didn't drop for some reason-- and surprisingly masculine in the lower register.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukZS61W8f4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al6yn4xHOuY

    That Marinyo guy just sounds like a really good countertenor to me.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy K. Kroy

    I believe you are entirely right.

  • Hear the supernatural instrument of il Cavaliere Alessandro Moreschi, the “last castrato”, recorded in the Sistine Chapel in 1904, and weep:

    • Thanks: Alden
    • Replies: @Amasius
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    I think an essential part of what made the castrato voice so special was the oversized chest and lungs due to macroskelia. Moreschi's voice is simply much more powerful than a woman or a fellow whose didn't drop for some reason-- and surprisingly masculine in the lower register.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukZS61W8f4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al6yn4xHOuY

    That Marinyo guy just sounds like a really good countertenor to me.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy K. Kroy

  • A lot of opinions about Europe in the Middle Ages were based on regional rivalries. Italy was well ahead of Northern Europe until the second millennium AD. But then the Northerners developed impressively -- e.g., Gothic cathedrals, a pointy style innate to the North. By 1386, even in Milan they began building their new cathedral...
  • @Wendy NY. Kroy
    @Ian M.

    Well...

    Buridan and Of Okham, and even Chaucer, are sometimes referred to as figures in "the Renaissance of the 14th century". But classifying people on the basis of rather arbitrary time periods is often an exercise that undergraduates do instead of thinking. Taking a term from another field, they're TSCs -- Thought-Stopping Clichés.

    And like the Middle East, the Middle Ages aren't in the "middle" of anything.

    There's a famous quotation from no one knows where that goes something like this:

    "With one foot planted firmly in the Middle Ages, Dante saluted the rising dawn of the Renaissance with the other."

    Replies: @Ian M.

    Buridan and Of Okham, and even Chaucer, are sometimes referred to as figures in “the Renaissance of the 14th century”.

    The Renaissance of the 14th century? Usually the 14th century is regarded as something of a disappointment in intellectual output compared to the preceding century, mainly because of the impact of the Black Death. Ockham is no joke, but the previous century boasts Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Bonaventure, Albert the Great, and Henry of Ghent. The 14th century cannot really compare.

    But classifying people on the basis of rather arbitrary time periods is often an exercise that undergraduates do instead of thinking.

    Sure, but there’s a reason that the Renaissance is associated with the time period it is rather than otherwise: an emphasis on humanism and on ancient original texts, especially Greek ones, emphasis on rhetorical style and rejection of Scholastic style are all characteristic to it to a degree that is not present earlier. Insisting on a specific date for its start or end is a fool’s errand, granted, but we can still have a rough idea of a period that is characterized by the features mentioned.

    At any rate, the reason I claimed that Dante was not a Renaissance figure is not because of when he lived, but because of the sort of themes his writing focuses on, which strike me as much more characteristic of the medieval period than the Renaissance period. I get the sense that people want to claim Dante for the Renaissance because of the relative paucity of great literature during the time period typically associated with the Renaissance.

    I’m happy to grant that ‘Middle Ages’ is a poor term though. I prefer ‘Christendom’.

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
  • @anon
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Yes, in general the order of change in artistic transformation is literary, visual, musical. So with Romanticism in all three; so with Symbolism/Impressionism. Of course the categorizations are conveniences to some large extent: Beethoven romantically dedicated his heroic/romantic 3rd to Napoleon (though later changed his mind) and composed for a further quarter-century but is nevertheless considered, more-or-less accurately, to predate the Romantic in music.

    Yet even Napoleon came after, of course, the event the most inspired Romanticism. Illustrating that the actual order is reality, literature, visual arts, music.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy

    A very interesting observation on something I’ve been wondering about for years. For instance in England you have Chaucer early on, but I’d argue that you don’t find a truly world-class, transformational English painter until Turner after, say, 1800, around 400 years later. In composing, Frederick Delius and Ralph Vaughan Williams were at their peak in, very roughly, 1925. Would you have any ideas as to why this is so often the case? So far I haven’t seen any books or academic journal articles talking about this, although I may not be looking hard enough. Would you have any suggestions? It’s something I’d like to pursue further.

    Thanks so much — WK

  • @Wendy NY. Kroy
    @Almost Missouri

    Oh God -- thanks -- this is the most embarrassing thing I've done since I was trying to ask Desiré, Koskishinkiletskiwitzeluski to the Fifth Grade graduation dance and threw up on her Mary Janes. Oh gentle Jesus. I'm still picking up the pieces... do you know of any way to do surgery on a published post? O God, O God...

    Replies: @SFG

    Dude, people have said much much stupider and much much nastier, myself included. Forget misdemeanors, this is an infraction of an infraction. Let it go.

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
  • Anonymous[210] • Disclaimer says:
    @mc23
    Philadelphia's Italian-American Mayor Frank Rizzo cut funding for a Jacques Lipchitz sculpture, "Government of the People".
    A model of the work was unveiled by the Art Commission and Rizzo called it “a load of dumped plaster” and refused to fund it.
    Rizzo defended his decision saying roughly " I know art, I am Italian, we practically invented art."

    The statue was eventually built through other funding and Rizzo learned to live with it but he often mentioned how the “load of plaster” ruined his view from City Hall.

    So I'd say the Italians take the Rennisance pretty seriously

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/brookeipse/29620924625

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    I think the artist is going for a meso-American snake-god vibe there.

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
  • @Dr. Krieger
    @slumber_j

    "ROMANES EUNT DOMUS? People called Romanes, they go to the house?"

    "It says, "Romans go home."

    "No it doesn't. What's Latin for Roman?"

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy

    HOW many Romans?

  • Byzantium was the root of the Renaissance.

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
    • Replies: @nebulafox
    @Anon

    The roots of the Renaissance were already there in the High Middle Ages, and had little to do with Byzantium: Byzantium helped shield Europe from storms from outsiders during the Dark Ages, but direct contact was limited to high level diplomacy, and cultural separation grew apace. Western Europe was in the process recovering from the civilizational collapse by then. Although Constantinople would remain Christendom's most advanced city by a large margin until 1204, the Italian city states were beginning to develop their own conceptions of republics, civil rights, international relations and trade that rivaled, and in some areas, outpaced Byzantium.

    (Venice occupied a niche role because it bridged Byzantium and the West. I think it's telling that in 1204, the Venetians didn't label their conquests as "Greece" like most Western Europeans, but "Rhomania".)

    The main Byzantine contribution to the Renaissance would be refugee scholars bringing over Greek language works from classical antiquity as the empire underwent its final death throes. Knowledge of Greek had been lost ever since the collapse of antiquity: Dante Alighieri couldn't have read Homer even if he had access to him, for example. He had to rely off a mix of his own imagination and allusions from the surviving Latin works he did have access to, i.e, his insightful and complex but removed treatment of Ulysses in the Inferno. So, this was a significant development with far-reaching consequences: i.e, Luther's ability to translate the New Testament directly from its original language. (Interestingly, Aquinas once suggested that the church schism was partly caused by simple translation problems!) But this was fuel to a fire that had been growing for centuries.

    Replies: @Bardon Kaldian

  • @Muse
    @Ralph L

    I think the rotunda in the National Gallery is one of the most spectacular spaces in north America. The massive columns are this gorgeous green polished stone, with a pantheon style dome above. Just touching the stone columns is exquisite. They appear to be solid stone.

    Have not been to Williamsburg yet. The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village is one of Ford’s great contributions. There is a full collection of various types of stationary steam power from the beginning of the industrial revolution in the museum. One of my favorite engines has the body of the engine cast in a gothic revival style. True industrial art.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NdlCEUI-si4

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Joe Stalin

    Does it work?

  • Muse says:
    @Ralph L
    @Muse

    Despite harassment and huge fines from FDR's IRS and Congress, Andrew Mellon gave the money and much of the art for the National Gallery, and his son Paul paid for most of the East Building in the 70s. Of course, poor people aren't allowed inside. J D Rockefeller Jr paid for the restoration of Williamsburg beginning in the 20s.

    Replies: @Muse

    I think the rotunda in the National Gallery is one of the most spectacular spaces in north America. The massive columns are this gorgeous green polished stone, with a pantheon style dome above. Just touching the stone columns is exquisite. They appear to be solid stone.

    Have not been to Williamsburg yet. The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village is one of Ford’s great contributions. There is a full collection of various types of stationary steam power from the beginning of the industrial revolution in the museum. One of my favorite engines has the body of the engine cast in a gothic revival style. True industrial art.

  • @Ian M.
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Petrarch could reasonably be said to have been a proto-Renaissance writer.

    But applying that label to Dante is stretching things too far. He seems clearly a man of the Middle Ages, given his focus on theology, his Aristotelianism, his political thought, etc.

    If you look at other fields too, it is hard to describe the 14th century as being part of the Renaissance. For example, in philosophy, the 14th century is the century of Ockham and Buridan, which belong to a different era than the humanism of Mirandola and (farther north) Erasmus.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @LP5

    Well…

    Buridan and Of Okham, and even Chaucer, are sometimes referred to as figures in “the Renaissance of the 14th century”. But classifying people on the basis of rather arbitrary time periods is often an exercise that undergraduates do instead of thinking. Taking a term from another field, they’re TSCs — Thought-Stopping Clichés.

    And like the Middle East, the Middle Ages aren’t in the “middle” of anything.

    There’s a famous quotation from no one knows where that goes something like this:

    “With one foot planted firmly in the Middle Ages, Dante saluted the rising dawn of the Renaissance with the other.”

    • Replies: @Ian M.
    @Wendy NY. Kroy


    Buridan and Of Okham, and even Chaucer, are sometimes referred to as figures in “the Renaissance of the 14th century”.
     
    The Renaissance of the 14th century? Usually the 14th century is regarded as something of a disappointment in intellectual output compared to the preceding century, mainly because of the impact of the Black Death. Ockham is no joke, but the previous century boasts Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Bonaventure, Albert the Great, and Henry of Ghent. The 14th century cannot really compare.

    But classifying people on the basis of rather arbitrary time periods is often an exercise that undergraduates do instead of thinking.
     
    Sure, but there's a reason that the Renaissance is associated with the time period it is rather than otherwise: an emphasis on humanism and on ancient original texts, especially Greek ones, emphasis on rhetorical style and rejection of Scholastic style are all characteristic to it to a degree that is not present earlier. Insisting on a specific date for its start or end is a fool's errand, granted, but we can still have a rough idea of a period that is characterized by the features mentioned.

    At any rate, the reason I claimed that Dante was not a Renaissance figure is not because of when he lived, but because of the sort of themes his writing focuses on, which strike me as much more characteristic of the medieval period than the Renaissance period. I get the sense that people want to claim Dante for the Renaissance because of the relative paucity of great literature during the time period typically associated with the Renaissance.

    I'm happy to grant that 'Middle Ages' is a poor term though. I prefer 'Christendom'.
  • anon[216] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wendy NY. Kroy
    I and many others would say the Italian Renaissance began in the 1300s with literary works written by humanists like Dante, Coluccio Salutati, and Petrarch, who translated and promoted Classic texts.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @anon, @Ian M.

    Yes, in general the order of change in artistic transformation is literary, visual, musical. So with Romanticism in all three; so with Symbolism/Impressionism. Of course the categorizations are conveniences to some large extent: Beethoven romantically dedicated his heroic/romantic 3rd to Napoleon (though later changed his mind) and composed for a further quarter-century but is nevertheless considered, more-or-less accurately, to predate the Romantic in music.

    Yet even Napoleon came after, of course, the event the most inspired Romanticism. Illustrating that the actual order is reality, literature, visual arts, music.

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
    • Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy
    @anon

    A very interesting observation on something I've been wondering about for years. For instance in England you have Chaucer early on, but I'd argue that you don't find a truly world-class, transformational English painter until Turner after, say, 1800, around 400 years later. In composing, Frederick Delius and Ralph Vaughan Williams were at their peak in, very roughly, 1925. Would you have any ideas as to why this is so often the case? So far I haven't seen any books or academic journal articles talking about this, although I may not be looking hard enough. Would you have any suggestions? It's something I'd like to pursue further.

    Thanks so much -- WK

  • @Wendy NY. Kroy
    I and many others would say the Italian Renaissance began in the 1300s with literary works written by humanists like Dante, Coluccio Salutati, and Petrarch, who translated and promoted Classic texts.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri, @anon, @Ian M.

    translated and promoted Classic[al] texts.

    Hence the Re- in Renaissance.

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
    • Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy
    @Almost Missouri

    Damn. And thanks. And I take such pride in my proofreading. Evidently the subject got me so fired up that I lost concentration while I was crawling around on the ceiling like Gregor Samsa. Do you know of any way to do surgery on an item that's already posted? I'm so mortified... this is the worst thing since I scored an own goal in a third-grade soccer game. Or maybe it was when I was trying to ask Desiré Koskiaskashinkeltismastkkoskosonvitch to the fifth-grade graduation dance and threw up her Mary Janes. O God, O gentle Jesus, I'm still picking up the pieces. Oh sweet Mary 's blessed immaculate sacred mother's holy presumputuous assumption...

    , @Wendy NY. Kroy
    @Almost Missouri

    Oh God -- thanks -- this is the most embarrassing thing I've done since I was trying to ask Desiré, Koskishinkiletskiwitzeluski to the Fifth Grade graduation dance and threw up on her Mary Janes. Oh gentle Jesus. I'm still picking up the pieces... do you know of any way to do surgery on a published post? O God, O God...

    Replies: @SFG

  • @Almost Missouri
    @Wendy NY. Kroy


    translated and promoted Classic[al] texts.
     
    Hence the Re- in Renaissance.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Oh God — thanks — this is the most embarrassing thing I’ve done since I was trying to ask Desiré, Koskishinkiletskiwitzeluski to the Fifth Grade graduation dance and threw up on her Mary Janes. Oh gentle Jesus. I’m still picking up the pieces… do you know of any way to do surgery on a published post? O God, O God…

    • Replies: @SFG
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Dude, people have said much much stupider and much much nastier, myself included. Forget misdemeanors, this is an infraction of an infraction. Let it go.

  • @Almost Missouri
    @Wendy NY. Kroy


    translated and promoted Classic[al] texts.
     
    Hence the Re- in Renaissance.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Damn. And thanks. And I take such pride in my proofreading. Evidently the subject got me so fired up that I lost concentration while I was crawling around on the ceiling like Gregor Samsa. Do you know of any way to do surgery on an item that’s already posted? I’m so mortified… this is the worst thing since I scored an own goal in a third-grade soccer game. Or maybe it was when I was trying to ask Desiré Koskiaskashinkeltismastkkoskosonvitch to the fifth-grade graduation dance and threw up her Mary Janes. O God, O gentle Jesus, I’m still picking up the pieces. Oh sweet Mary ‘s blessed immaculate sacred mother’s holy presumputuous assumption…

  • I and many others would say the Italian Renaissance began in the 1300s with literary works written by humanists like Dante, Coluccio Salutati, and Petrarch, who translated and promoted Classic texts.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Wendy NY. Kroy


    translated and promoted Classic[al] texts.
     
    Hence the Re- in Renaissance.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    , @anon
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Yes, in general the order of change in artistic transformation is literary, visual, musical. So with Romanticism in all three; so with Symbolism/Impressionism. Of course the categorizations are conveniences to some large extent: Beethoven romantically dedicated his heroic/romantic 3rd to Napoleon (though later changed his mind) and composed for a further quarter-century but is nevertheless considered, more-or-less accurately, to predate the Romantic in music.

    Yet even Napoleon came after, of course, the event the most inspired Romanticism. Illustrating that the actual order is reality, literature, visual arts, music.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy

    , @Ian M.
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Petrarch could reasonably be said to have been a proto-Renaissance writer.

    But applying that label to Dante is stretching things too far. He seems clearly a man of the Middle Ages, given his focus on theology, his Aristotelianism, his political thought, etc.

    If you look at other fields too, it is hard to describe the 14th century as being part of the Renaissance. For example, in philosophy, the 14th century is the century of Ockham and Buridan, which belong to a different era than the humanism of Mirandola and (farther north) Erasmus.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @LP5

  • The emergence of Europe as the world's dominant civilization is easy to explain from roughly 1492 onward: European ships were showing up all over the world, trading, conquering, and spreading Eurasian diseases, building the wealth of Europe and depleting that of the rest of the world. But, much of the non-European world entered a sort...
  • @Rob
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    The New World civilizations were really interesting. When the conquistadors arrived, the natives were really close to the beginnings of civilization. Wow, were they weird, but interesting parallels to the first fertile crescent civilizations.

    Take gods. Unlike the Great Bear and Great Eagle of the hunter-gatherers in North America, the Aztecs had a pantheon of human-like gods. The gods gave them corn, much like the fertile crescent gods gave people wheat. Human gods instead of animals probably changes over when people deal with each other instead of nature.

    The cruelty! Were the earliest old world civilizations as awful? I remember reading about Assyrians putting hooks through the upper lips of new slaves and leading columns of them to their awful fate. Without the old world diseases, I wonder if new world cities were population sinks or not.

    I don't know how much of Aztec religion we really know. I have heard that Quetzalcoatl was something the Spanish made up and spread to pacify the conquered. A bearded white god of wonderfulness coming from the east? That’s a little too convenient. But we’ve found places with lots of bodies with their hearts cut out and such. Maybe they did human sacrifice because there were next to no domestic animals majestic or imposing enough to make good sacrifices. Sacrifice a bull to Zeus and he will smile upon you. Sacrifice a chinchilla to Xipe Totec? He’s gonna be all “lol, srsly?”

    If Native Americans just had another few thousand years, I’m pretty sure they’d have domesticated bison. Bison could probably be bred to be ridden faster than horses. I do wonder why they were so slow on metal. Were stone tools just better than the first metal ones? I’d bet an obsidian knife works better than a pure copper blade. Maybe there just weren’t convenient deposits?

    Unless contact happened after Europeans invented vaccines, Old World diseases would have been apocalyptic for the Indians in almost any scenario. Orson Scott Card wrote a time travel book where time travelers bring a vaccinating genetically engineered virus and a Jesus figure so they stop eating people. Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus. It was a fun read. I think he was planning on a series where people fix the past. My idea for an awful time travel story? Hitler was the best thing possible. Like, if the Holocaust hadn’t happened, there would have been a civilization-ending nuclear war. Turn the old, “would you murder baby Hitler?” thought experiment into a definite “no,” Go Hitler!

    I don’t think a book on that theme would ever get published.

    Replies: @epebble, @epebble, @Colin Wright, @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    And oh, yes, judging by remains in burials, Tenochtitlan and the much earlier giant city, Teotihuacan, do seem to have been population sinks. They had their own “diseases of civilization”, parasitic and otherwise.

  • The Washington Post jumps on a new study of the genes and behaviors of thousands of dogs as opening another front in The War on Stereotypes: Looking for a well-behaved dog? Breed may not tell you much. Researchers found that breed alone explains very little about dog behavior and personality By Katie Shepherd Yesterday at...
  • @Wendy NY. Kroy
    Re. pit bulls -- when I bite, I too do not let go.

    Replies: @Cloudbuster

    Make a note: Don’t date Wendy.

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
    • LOL: Buffalo Joe
  • The emergence of Europe as the world's dominant civilization is easy to explain from roughly 1492 onward: European ships were showing up all over the world, trading, conquering, and spreading Eurasian diseases, building the wealth of Europe and depleting that of the rest of the world. But, much of the non-European world entered a sort...
  • @Jim
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    The Bronze Age in the Old World was the Second Millennium BC. New World civilizations were not yet at that level at 1500 AD. More than 3000 years behind Europeans.

    Anyway smallpox by itself devastated New World populations.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Yes, but even after the epidemic, they had many, many times more people. And their arrows were quite effective. It would be like the Little Bighorn.

  • Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wendy NY. Kroy
    Oddly enough, on the other side of the world the situation was in many ways the opposite. In 1492 two new, energetic empires, the Inca and the Mexica (or "Aztecs"), had recently, and for the first time, united and pacified huge regions of Central and South America, and by most indicators they were just getting started. Andean metalsmiths had used annealing and electroplating for more than a thousand years, and the Mexica's main northern rivals, the Tarascans, were closing in on the magic 88/12 alloy ratio of copper to tin. If the citizens of the New World had been left alone for another century while they moved into the Bronze Age, and if they’d kept their act together, they could, possibly, have successfully resisted the Conquistadors.

    Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY), @Louis Renault, @Rob, @Anonymous, @Jim

    Peter Frost suggested something similar with respect to the Iroquois in North America:

    https://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2011/07/rapid-cultural-evolution-case-of.html

    This cultural evolution was actually accelerating when the Europeans arrived. What if their arrival had been postponed? The Iroquois would have certainly surpassed the mound builders of the Mississippi valley and probably reached a level of civilization like that of the Aztecs.

    Such a scenario almost did happen. Indeed, conditions were far from ideal when the English and the French began to settle North America. Western Europe was just returning to the population levels that had existed before the Black Death. The North Atlantic was entering a cold period, called “The Little Ice Age,” that made trans-oceanic crossings difficult. Finally, the Turks were pushing deep into Central Europe, laying siege to Vienna in 1529 and 1683 and vowing to drive on to Cologne.

    Had this fragile context taken a turn for the worse, there might have been insufficient will or ability to colonize the Americas. European settlers would have perhaps arrived on the Eastern Seaboard only in the late 1700s.

    And beyond the Appalachians, they would have found millions of sedentary Amerindians living in fortified cities and recently united under the aegis of the Iroquois Confederacy …

    • Agree: Wendy NY. Kroy
  • @Louis Renault
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    So basically stone aged cultures with nice jewlrey, arts, and human sacrifice. Bronze age weapons weren't going to defeat the conquistadors and their native allies.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    True, but they could mobilize many times the number of warriors. If they could put together a united front, Cortes and his 615 men would be eaten long before they could get to Tenochtitlan/Mexico City. And Europeans wouldn’t be able to get many more soldiers to the new world in the small caravels they had at that time.

  • @Rob
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    The New World civilizations were really interesting. When the conquistadors arrived, the natives were really close to the beginnings of civilization. Wow, were they weird, but interesting parallels to the first fertile crescent civilizations.

    Take gods. Unlike the Great Bear and Great Eagle of the hunter-gatherers in North America, the Aztecs had a pantheon of human-like gods. The gods gave them corn, much like the fertile crescent gods gave people wheat. Human gods instead of animals probably changes over when people deal with each other instead of nature.

    The cruelty! Were the earliest old world civilizations as awful? I remember reading about Assyrians putting hooks through the upper lips of new slaves and leading columns of them to their awful fate. Without the old world diseases, I wonder if new world cities were population sinks or not.

    I don't know how much of Aztec religion we really know. I have heard that Quetzalcoatl was something the Spanish made up and spread to pacify the conquered. A bearded white god of wonderfulness coming from the east? That’s a little too convenient. But we’ve found places with lots of bodies with their hearts cut out and such. Maybe they did human sacrifice because there were next to no domestic animals majestic or imposing enough to make good sacrifices. Sacrifice a bull to Zeus and he will smile upon you. Sacrifice a chinchilla to Xipe Totec? He’s gonna be all “lol, srsly?”

    If Native Americans just had another few thousand years, I’m pretty sure they’d have domesticated bison. Bison could probably be bred to be ridden faster than horses. I do wonder why they were so slow on metal. Were stone tools just better than the first metal ones? I’d bet an obsidian knife works better than a pure copper blade. Maybe there just weren’t convenient deposits?

    Unless contact happened after Europeans invented vaccines, Old World diseases would have been apocalyptic for the Indians in almost any scenario. Orson Scott Card wrote a time travel book where time travelers bring a vaccinating genetically engineered virus and a Jesus figure so they stop eating people. Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus. It was a fun read. I think he was planning on a series where people fix the past. My idea for an awful time travel story? Hitler was the best thing possible. Like, if the Holocaust hadn’t happened, there would have been a civilization-ending nuclear war. Turn the old, “would you murder baby Hitler?” thought experiment into a definite “no,” Go Hitler!

    I don’t think a book on that theme would ever get published.

    Replies: @epebble, @epebble, @Colin Wright, @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    They were indeed a rough lot. But they didn’t often burn people as the Inquisition did. And it seems that they treated their slaves better than slaves were treated in Europe. Also, their battles were all hand-to-hand, so they killed a smaller proportion of their enemies in combat than were killed in European wars.

  • @Louis Renault
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    So basically stone aged cultures with nice jewlrey, arts, and human sacrifice. Bronze age weapons weren't going to defeat the conquistadors and their native allies.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    True. But the Mexica alone, not even counting the other states in Mesoamerica, had many times more people than the Eurotrash could have sent over in the small caravels they had at that time. Cortes and his 615 men would have been eaten long before they’d gotten to Tenochtitlan (now Mexico City) if they hadn’t had an escort of thousands of warriors who hated the Mexica.

  • @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Hi, Wendy. You write, "[By 1492,] Andean metalsmiths had used annealing and electroplating for more than a thousand years". How was the electricity for electroplating generated?

    Replies: @Jack D, @kaganovitch, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Jack D. and Kagaganovitch are correct. They didn’t have proper batteries and hadn’t sent electricity through wires. Instead the bath plus the piece of jewelry or whatever acted as its own battery. Here’s the bit from Wikipedia:

    The Moche independently developed electroplating technology without any Old World influences. The Moche used electricity derived from chemicals to gild copper with a thin layer of gold. In order to start the electroplating process, the Moche first concocted a very corrosive and a highly acidic liquid solution in which they dissolved small traces of gold. Copper inserted into the resulting acidic solution acted both as a cathode and an anode, generating the electric current needed to start the electroplating process. The gold ions in the solution were attracted to the copper anode and cathode and formed a thin layer over the copper, giving the latter the appearance of a solid gold object, even though gold only coated the outermost layer of the copper object. The Moche then allowed the acidic solution to boil slowly, causing a very thin layer/coating of gold to permanently coat the copper anode and cathode. This battery-less electroplating technique was developed around 500 CE by the Moche, a thousand years before Europeans invented the same process.

  • Oddly enough, on the other side of the world the situation was in many ways the opposite. In 1492 two new, energetic empires, the Inca and the Mexica (or “Aztecs”), had recently, and for the first time, united and pacified huge regions of Central and South America, and by most indicators they were just getting started. Andean metalsmiths had used annealing and electroplating for more than a thousand years, and the Mexica’s main northern rivals, the Tarascans, were closing in on the magic 88/12 alloy ratio of copper to tin. If the citizens of the New World had been left alone for another century while they moved into the Bronze Age, and if they’d kept their act together, they could, possibly, have successfully resisted the Conquistadors.

    • Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Hi, Wendy. You write, "[By 1492,] Andean metalsmiths had used annealing and electroplating for more than a thousand years". How was the electricity for electroplating generated?

    Replies: @Jack D, @kaganovitch, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    , @Louis Renault
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    So basically stone aged cultures with nice jewlrey, arts, and human sacrifice. Bronze age weapons weren't going to defeat the conquistadors and their native allies.

    Replies: @Bill Jones, @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    , @Rob
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    The New World civilizations were really interesting. When the conquistadors arrived, the natives were really close to the beginnings of civilization. Wow, were they weird, but interesting parallels to the first fertile crescent civilizations.

    Take gods. Unlike the Great Bear and Great Eagle of the hunter-gatherers in North America, the Aztecs had a pantheon of human-like gods. The gods gave them corn, much like the fertile crescent gods gave people wheat. Human gods instead of animals probably changes over when people deal with each other instead of nature.

    The cruelty! Were the earliest old world civilizations as awful? I remember reading about Assyrians putting hooks through the upper lips of new slaves and leading columns of them to their awful fate. Without the old world diseases, I wonder if new world cities were population sinks or not.

    I don't know how much of Aztec religion we really know. I have heard that Quetzalcoatl was something the Spanish made up and spread to pacify the conquered. A bearded white god of wonderfulness coming from the east? That’s a little too convenient. But we’ve found places with lots of bodies with their hearts cut out and such. Maybe they did human sacrifice because there were next to no domestic animals majestic or imposing enough to make good sacrifices. Sacrifice a bull to Zeus and he will smile upon you. Sacrifice a chinchilla to Xipe Totec? He’s gonna be all “lol, srsly?”

    If Native Americans just had another few thousand years, I’m pretty sure they’d have domesticated bison. Bison could probably be bred to be ridden faster than horses. I do wonder why they were so slow on metal. Were stone tools just better than the first metal ones? I’d bet an obsidian knife works better than a pure copper blade. Maybe there just weren’t convenient deposits?

    Unless contact happened after Europeans invented vaccines, Old World diseases would have been apocalyptic for the Indians in almost any scenario. Orson Scott Card wrote a time travel book where time travelers bring a vaccinating genetically engineered virus and a Jesus figure so they stop eating people. Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus. It was a fun read. I think he was planning on a series where people fix the past. My idea for an awful time travel story? Hitler was the best thing possible. Like, if the Holocaust hadn’t happened, there would have been a civilization-ending nuclear war. Turn the old, “would you murder baby Hitler?” thought experiment into a definite “no,” Go Hitler!

    I don’t think a book on that theme would ever get published.

    Replies: @epebble, @epebble, @Colin Wright, @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Wendy NY. Kroy

    , @Anonymous
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Peter Frost suggested something similar with respect to the Iroquois in North America:

    https://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2011/07/rapid-cultural-evolution-case-of.html


    This cultural evolution was actually accelerating when the Europeans arrived. What if their arrival had been postponed? The Iroquois would have certainly surpassed the mound builders of the Mississippi valley and probably reached a level of civilization like that of the Aztecs.

    Such a scenario almost did happen. Indeed, conditions were far from ideal when the English and the French began to settle North America. Western Europe was just returning to the population levels that had existed before the Black Death. The North Atlantic was entering a cold period, called “The Little Ice Age,” that made trans-oceanic crossings difficult. Finally, the Turks were pushing deep into Central Europe, laying siege to Vienna in 1529 and 1683 and vowing to drive on to Cologne.

    Had this fragile context taken a turn for the worse, there might have been insufficient will or ability to colonize the Americas. European settlers would have perhaps arrived on the Eastern Seaboard only in the late 1700s.

    And beyond the Appalachians, they would have found millions of sedentary Amerindians living in fortified cities and recently united under the aegis of the Iroquois Confederacy …
     
    , @Jim
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    The Bronze Age in the Old World was the Second Millennium BC. New World civilizations were not yet at that level at 1500 AD. More than 3000 years behind Europeans.

    Anyway smallpox by itself devastated New World populations.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy

  • The Washington Post jumps on a new study of the genes and behaviors of thousands of dogs as opening another front in The War on Stereotypes: Looking for a well-behaved dog? Breed may not tell you much. Researchers found that breed alone explains very little about dog behavior and personality By Katie Shepherd Yesterday at...
  • Re. pit bulls — when I bite, I too do not let go.

    • Disagree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Make a note: Don't date Wendy.

  • From a New York Times obituary: But their life in Yonkers was vastly more boring than that of the characters in The Americans, who were always assassinating somebody to add interest to the plot. I don't actually remember many Soviet assassinations in the USA during the Cold War. (I suspect there were more assassinations carried...
  • Do they mean “sprang”?

    • Replies: @dearieme
    @Wendy NY. Kroy

    Yeah. And that Russian cruiser "sank" not "sunk".

    It's odd: some illiteracies annoy me. Others I just laugh off.

  • @Oleg Panczenko
    The woods are lovely, dark and deep
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

    Replies: @Wendy NY. Kroy, @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    That guy’s no Charles Bronson.