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    Here's a video from Bucha, a suburb of Kiev, where in a two minute stroll down a single street, there are at least ten obliterated combat vehicles, most of them tracked rather than mere wheeled trucks. Granted, the VDV (Russian Airborne Forces) uses armor light enough for planes to carry, which has been said to...
  • @That Would Be Telling
    @GeologyAnonMk5

    Just double checked with Wikipedia, and the US has never used a M2 in a coaxial (with the main gun) mount, just .30 machine guns. And per Hathcock's autobiography he made some kills with M2s to which he attached his old fashioned optical scope with some widget someone had constructed. From memory of reading that book long ago, I did not get the impression that was a large fraction of his kills, but he didn't detail them all.

    Replies: @GeologyAnonMk5, @nokangaroos

    Thanks …
    the M2 does have a dovetail for a telescopic sight on the left side of the receiver
    but I´ve never seen the intended sight.
    – The Vietnam-era AN/PVS-2 had a range of 200yds – it would have been pretty pointless to put it on an M2.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  • @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    You're quite right, I was completely mistaken, the .50 looks to always be in the commander's position, I assume as a vestigial reference to it being a AA weapon for the tank in WW2, or needing the greater elevation you can get in the pintle mount. So thank you for correcting me on that.

    However, I don't think that does anything for your argument that the M2 is useless... It's still on just about every tank the US has ever built, but on top of the turret and not inside it. Not to mention humvees, MRAPs, M113s, numerous helicopters even to this day, in great abundance on Navy ships, and I assume on golf course guarding pillboxes for the air force. You could make a reasonable argument that it's not actually that good of a weapon, but to say it is not used would be as inaccurate as my recollection that it was a coax mount.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I don’t think that does anything for your argument that the M2 is useless…

    Not my argument at all, although very few ships go for them alone as point surface defense , I’ve see the Bushmaster 25 mm chain gun being very popular for that like on Arleigh Burke-class destroyers. Ah, but I see the current plan for the littoral ship followup is a Constellation-class frigate with only a 57-mm main gun and “Various machine guns M240 or M2” per Wikipedia.

    Based on a Franco-Italian design in service for nine years with nineteen built so far, maybe this time the Navy is serious about not screwing up everything. Although we’ll have to learn how to maintain combined diesel-electric and gas (CODLAG) propulsion systems (Diesel engines feeding into generators, the electric motors powering the shafts can be augmented by a turbine). That is, lubricating the system with oil will remain a requirement … but they’re not 44-47 knot ships, instead “in excess of 26 knots” akin to the same in the French engine version. Construction of the first begins … this month, per the Wikipedia linked January article they’re primarily ASW escort platforms with I’ll add an updated Aegis system and 32 VLS cells plus 16 canister mounted over the horizon anti-ship missiles.

  • @GeologyAnonMk5
    @nokangaroos

    It's a common light-vehicle mounted weapon, and used coaxially on pretty much every US tank for ages and ages, since it can be coregistered easily with the bore of the main gun, contributes effective direct fire to enemies in hard cover, and is way, way smaller (and it's ammo) than the 20mm. In the ETO, the USAAC
    really felt the lack of killing power relative to 20mm against Luftwaffe aircraft (which were all cannon armed for the most part) but in the Pacific it was up to the task of affected rapid unscheduled disassembly against the light Nip fighters, as evidenced by the Hellcats victory ratios.

    Ironically it is also an effective sniper weapon. A large share of Carlos Hathcocks kills in Vietnam were not from his M40 but from a M2 with starlight scope.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Just double checked with Wikipedia, and the US has never used a M2 in a coaxial (with the main gun) mount, just .30 machine guns. And per Hathcock’s autobiography he made some kills with M2s to which he attached his old fashioned optical scope with some widget someone had constructed. From memory of reading that book long ago, I did not get the impression that was a large fraction of his kills, but he didn’t detail them all.

    • Replies: @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    You're quite right, I was completely mistaken, the .50 looks to always be in the commander's position, I assume as a vestigial reference to it being a AA weapon for the tank in WW2, or needing the greater elevation you can get in the pintle mount. So thank you for correcting me on that.

    However, I don't think that does anything for your argument that the M2 is useless... It's still on just about every tank the US has ever built, but on top of the turret and not inside it. Not to mention humvees, MRAPs, M113s, numerous helicopters even to this day, in great abundance on Navy ships, and I assume on golf course guarding pillboxes for the air force. You could make a reasonable argument that it's not actually that good of a weapon, but to say it is not used would be as inaccurate as my recollection that it was a coax mount.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @nokangaroos
    @That Would Be Telling

    Thanks ...
    the M2 does have a dovetail for a telescopic sight on the left side of the receiver
    but I´ve never seen the intended sight.
    - The Vietnam-era AN/PVS-2 had a range of 200yds - it would have been pretty pointless to put it on an M2.

  • @Jack D
    @Anonymous

    When the Chinese take action against Taiwan, they will actually be prepared for it. Xi is not going to rely on blustery reports from generals - he is going to check his math 3 times and make sure that the numbers really add up. He is going to go in with overwhelming force and with state of the art equipment. Equipment that actually works and is not ancient. It's not going to be a clusterfark like Ukraine at all (conversely, the Taiwanese are not chopped liver either and the PLA lacks combat experience). They are not going to have their expensive tanks taken out by $300 commercial drones - they will have countermeasures prepared. They are not going to have illusions that the civilian population is going to welcome them and be shocked when they shoot at them instead. They are watching what is going on in Ukraine and learning lessons in what NOT to do.

    The Chinese are not being "cautious", they are just getting ready, truly ready. They are going to need to mount a D-Day type operation and that requires a lot of equipment and preparation. Until they are ready it will seem as if nothing is going on and then suddenly it won't.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Or Xi, who’s made a lot of enemies, due to a faction fight, mounting issues due to for example his bad fossil fuel policies, Zero COVID polices, food supply issues (see both of the former, especially the first) etc. (he’s a bad helmsman), or perhaps trouble in retaining his position this year as he in theory is subject to an internal CCP reelection or the like, will tell the PLA to “go” whether they’re ready or not.

    We just can’t say if or when the PRC will try to take back the ROC by force, just that if you hear it’s happening, buy all the electronics you think you’ll be needing for years to come ASAP.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    I don't think so, because Xi is not as nuts as Putin. He is still connected to reality. He is not a gambler. He will only go if he thinks it is a sure thing. He would rather miss out than go down as a bad Emperor.

  • @Harry Baldwin
    @nokangaroos

    The .50-caliber MG was the primary armament in our fighter planes in World War II and proved effective in that role. That role seems to have been left out of this discussion..

    Replies: @nokangaroos, @That Would Be Telling, @Chris Mallory

    Although it bears mention that in WWII we didn’t have a lot of bombers, especially bigger ones, to shoot down. So 4-8 M2s firing Armor Piercing Incendiary were very effective in our fighter planes against small craft including other fighters, as well as in ground attack roles. In the Pacific, M2s salvaged from unreparable planes were mounted on medium bombers like the B-24, as many as twelve, and were very effective in wrecking pretty much anything on the ground that wasn’t protected by revetments.

    Again, it’s an anti-material gun, and to this day militaries still have lots of things that can be destroyed by them. If not all armored fighting vehicles, then pretty much everything that supports them like trucks.

  • Jared Taylor and his co-host consider why Africa at least appears to have suffered little from Covid. They also discuss the ways America is turning South African, the state of free speech in Britain, the cost of good intentions at Georgetown, and where you have to watch out for “volatile landscapes.”
  • They also did not go for the covid-19 lockdown and vaccine madness.

    The thanks was meant for the The Anti-Gnostic above you. But let me emphasize his point, population pyramids that look like pyramids, that is most of the people are young, are obviously going to have very different overall outcomes for a disease that has such a heavy weighting in bad outcomes with age, and remarkably passing over as far as we know almost all “children.” (Weasel wording because I worry about long term effects.)

    And it wasn’t that “they did not go for ‘vaccine madness’,” it was simply not an option, especially give how comprehensively the national government of India dropped the ball (companies in it were supposed to provide lots of vaccine, but the government just declared they’d beaten COVID before their first wave, at which time it was a bit late to do anything but for example threaten the CEO of the Serum Institute of India (SII, a private company) who then fled to London).

  • One hour to figure out that the average age in Africa is 19.7 years?

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  • Africans are mostly young and are mostly outdoors in warm to hot weather. They also did not go for the covid-19 lockdown and vaccine madness. So they are OK now.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  • Here's a video from Bucha, a suburb of Kiev, where in a two minute stroll down a single street, there are at least ten obliterated combat vehicles, most of them tracked rather than mere wheeled trucks. Granted, the VDV (Russian Airborne Forces) uses armor light enough for planes to carry, which has been said to...
  • @NJ Transit Commuter
    Armor unaccompanied by infantry support has been a death trap since WWII. A Javelin missile is certainly a more effective weapon than a Panzerfaust, but my guess is proper integrated arms techniques, especially combined with drone technology so you can find Javelin teams, would still make armored warfare effective.

    Replies: @Nathan, @Alfa158, @Wokechoke

    YouTuber The Chieftain is a genuine former tanker who does in-detail videos on armored warfare, and posted a video about the subject, that makes much the same argument.
    He illustrates it with a popular video from Ukraine which is usually edited to show a tank being hit by an infantry antitank missile because there was no infantry support. Wow, that was easy.
    In his case however he does something the propagandists don’t do which is play the entire recording which shows the tanks right behind that one killing the soldiers in the anti-tank team. I think he says something along the line that what you don’t see is videos of attacks where the ambush fails and “you are now dealing with a very angry tank”.

    Some analysts are predicting that future warfare may be fought almost entirely by autonomous machines because flesh and blood won’t survive very long in a combat zone. The AI sensing and control software is becoming very small, cheap and effective. Think of your new car that can identify pedestrians in your path and warn you, parallel park itself, and read speed limit signs. Or your phone camera that picks human faces out of the picture. At some point we could have swarms of air and ground drones that autonomously look for targets, zip up to them and detonate themselves. Mouse and hummingbird sized ones for soldiers, vultures sized ones for vehicles. The war is decided by whose little robots defeat the other side’s little robots, while humans hide out in bunkers.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Alfa158


    In his case however he does something the propagandists don’t do which is play the entire recording which shows the tanks right behind that one killing the soldiers in the anti-tank team. I think he says something along the line that what you don’t see is videos of attacks where the ambush fails and “you are now dealing with a very angry tank”.
     
    Most of the current anti-tank weapons are "fire and forget". This means that as soon as you have shot the Javelin out of the tube, it is already locked in on the heat signature of the target and you can reposition while the missile is in flight. The range of a Javelin is about a mile and a half. If you are only yards away from the tank you are doing it wrong. While the Javelin is in flight, you are supposed to be repositioning so that if the enemy fires back you are not going to be in that spot anymore. Ideally you have prepared a 2nd position so that you reload and take out the next tank - the reload time is 20s.

    Or, you could have 2 soldiers fire off Javelins simultaneously so that they take out both tanks at the same time.

    These photos of multiple pieces of armor taken out (and there are many such photos) show that the scenario that you give is not common. Or even if they manage to hit the guy with the Javelin, there are more guys and more Javelins waiting such that they are not going home alive anyway. TBH, if you were in a Russian tank and your buddy tank just got hit, the safest thing is to get out and run away because you're next. Even if the Ukes cut your balls off you could still have a career as a female swimmer. It's very grim inside a Russian tank that has been hit by a Javelin because the ammo is stored inside. Whenever you see a Russian tank with the turret blasted off, that means that the ammo has cooked off and that's not a survivable event for the crew.
    , @Wokechoke
    @Alfa158

    The distances from tanks used by the NLAW is suicidal and too close.

    But it blunted the BTG.

    , @Joe8056
    @Alfa158

    As soon as the Javelin/Javelin equivalents can be fired from maybe just a little bit further away tanks will be obsolete. There will surely be spotter drones that can give the exact location of the tank so the Javelin can be fired from a mile or more away. People won't be necessary for much longer.

    Replies: @Jack D

    , @ic1000
    @Alfa158

    > Some analysts are predicting that future warfare may be fought almost entirely by autonomous machines because flesh and blood won’t survive very long in a combat zone... At some point we could have swarms of air and ground drones that autonomously look for targets, zip up to them and detonate themselves. Mouse and hummingbird sized ones for soldiers...

    Relevant to your point, a commenter* in a prior thread linked this 8-minute video from 2019, "Slaughterbots". It's dystopian: a plausible look at the merger of AI, hummingbird-sized drones, and explosives to enable elites to better-manage civil society.

    (Needless to say, this better-managed civil society has no shortage of grieving parents, widows, and orphans.)

    A battlefield like those in Ukraine is a straightforward use case for this near-future technology. The iSteve commentariat can judge whether the slippery slope from foxhole to university classroom is a bug or a feature.

    .
    * Apologies for the lack of acknowledgement. Thanks for the link!

    Replies: @Wokechoke

    , @Dutch Boy
    @Alfa158

    Apparently, the Azeris made mincemeat of Armenian armor (obtained from Russia) and static emplacements using cheap military drones bought from Israel and Turkey. Their Russian air defense systems were helpless against the drones.

  • @Unit472
    I notice the US and UK don't order any MBTs and haven't for quite a few years. Tanks and IFV where they can move at speed may survive against NLAWS and Javelins which are short range weapons but not against Hellfire missiles which can be drone launched. Artillery too may have seen its day as a small drone can kill the crew who have no protection with a small aerial bomb.

    London Telegraph had a rather shocking story about how much Russia depends on Ukrainian factories to make much of its weaponry. Hope American supply chains don't go through China but I just bet some do

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I notice the US and UK don’t order any MBTs and haven’t for quite a few years.

    Maybe because we have more than enough chassis we built for the Cold War, and their Chobham armor is easy to upgrade, fits inside sheet metal boxes? Chrysler also made sure to include an extra road wheel to accommodate greater weight versions.

    One thing I’ve read is the higher end, that is not T-72 Soviet tanks had something similar but was sealed at the factory for good, and reactive armor can in part because the factories weren’t trusted to put the correct, expensive stuff in it.

    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
    @That Would Be Telling

    Yes, a few years ago, the Army was complaining because Congress kept buying M1 tanks (whatever variant) and the Army was pretty much parking them in the desert as a ready reserve.

  • @Auld Alliance

    one spoil-sport who pointed out that two men with a .50 caliber machine gun, if they kept their heads
     
    Sorry to be a pedant, (and maybe even an incorrect pedant - someone can maybe tell me) but is 0.50 caliber not too large for a pre-Great War machine gun?

    According to wiki the UK`s WW1 Vickers machine gun was 0.303, and that was a pretty heavy thing.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Paul Mendez, @nokangaroos, @That Would Be Telling, @Joe Stalin, @Wokechoke

    Not even vaguely in the same class. .303 is from memory a slightly lighter than average battle rifle round, something the British also used in the “Short, Magazine, Lee–Enfield” SMLE for WWI, which some consider to be the best bolt action battle rifle. .50 BMG is an anti-material round and it takes some significant and wearisome to the operator rifle adaptations for a single human to fire it from a rifle, but it does have a place there.

    Bullet weights and energies 174-5 gr, ~2,400 ft⋅lbf vs. ~600 or over gr and and over 13,000 ft⋅lbf, almost three and a half times the weight, almost five and half times the energy. And significantly longer ranges, one use for putting it in a rifle is very long range sniping. There’s enough size and weight budget in the .50 BMG to make complicated rounds said to have roughly the same effect as standard 20 mm cannon rounds.

    Or another way of putting it, rifle plates can stop battle rifle rounds, anti-material ones have so much energy the human behind the plate wouldn’t survive the experience.

    • Replies: @Wokechoke
    @That Would Be Telling

    .50 might have been found in naval ships around the time of ww1. 12.5mm is the Continental version of the Imperial/English calibration.

  • Armor unaccompanied by infantry support has been a death trap since WWII. A Javelin missile is certainly a more effective weapon than a Panzerfaust, but my guess is proper integrated arms techniques, especially combined with drone technology so you can find Javelin teams, would still make armored warfare effective.

    • Replies: @Nathan
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    This is the correct take. It isn't so much that tanks are obsolete, it's that Russia failed at combined arms maneuver. Integrated dismounted infantry and air support keeps armor viable. It's a more complex form of rock/paper/scissors.

    It also doesn't help that the Russian tanks are apparently junk and operated by un-trained conscripts.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    , @Alfa158
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    YouTuber The Chieftain is a genuine former tanker who does in-detail videos on armored warfare, and posted a video about the subject, that makes much the same argument.
    He illustrates it with a popular video from Ukraine which is usually edited to show a tank being hit by an infantry antitank missile because there was no infantry support. Wow, that was easy.
    In his case however he does something the propagandists don’t do which is play the entire recording which shows the tanks right behind that one killing the soldiers in the anti-tank team. I think he says something along the line that what you don’t see is videos of attacks where the ambush fails and “you are now dealing with a very angry tank”.

    Some analysts are predicting that future warfare may be fought almost entirely by autonomous machines because flesh and blood won’t survive very long in a combat zone. The AI sensing and control software is becoming very small, cheap and effective. Think of your new car that can identify pedestrians in your path and warn you, parallel park itself, and read speed limit signs. Or your phone camera that picks human faces out of the picture. At some point we could have swarms of air and ground drones that autonomously look for targets, zip up to them and detonate themselves. Mouse and hummingbird sized ones for soldiers, vultures sized ones for vehicles. The war is decided by whose little robots defeat the other side’s little robots, while humans hide out in bunkers.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Wokechoke, @Joe8056, @ic1000, @Dutch Boy

    , @Wokechoke
    @NJ Transit Commuter

    Germany should abandon NATO and open Nordstream2.

  • First half-hour: Eric Walberg discusses his latest book review “The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl” and expresses his dismay with the media’s moronic anti-Russia propaganda. Second half-hour: Eric Zuesse nominates Douglas Macgregor! From Eric Zuesse: We need Douglas Macgregor for U.S. President. Here is why: Democrats, Republicans, and independents, all need this person...
  • @aleksander
    We can only begin to solve our sexual problems, gender madness, homosexuality, and hangups by leaving the NWO and its anal agenda.

    Tom Huxley's latest: SEXUAL PROBLEMS IN THE NEW WORLD ORDER


    https://thomashuxley.substack.com/p/sexual-problems-in-the-new-world?s=w

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I’m not sure how many of us have “hangups” but it’s not for a lack of trying. A few choice bits from your link:

    Let’s face it, anyone born in the U.S. in the past 70 years, particularly the last 30 years, meaning the millenial generation, grew up in a Jewish sewer. A New World Order sewer. It is crucial to realize that a very toxic environment was constructed for us before we ever set foot on this earth. It was designed to cause us sexual problems. Many powerful people, enemies of Jesus Christ, were lying in wait for us, just as we headed to adolescence.

    I’m early Gen X and can most certainly confirm this. No matter how wholesome your upbringing was back then, go to a college about the community or thereabouts level and perversion of all sorts was the culture by the late 1970s. Including Jewish professors pushing the mentioned Screw magazine, as reported to me by a good Boomer friend about a decade older, was staff at the school and this came up out of the blue in a conversation enough to make a lasting impression on her, and she was no prude.

    There’s lots more to why the NWO/globohomo/Jews hate Putin and the Russians he sort of supports (not to the extent of taming the oligarchy that keeps most of them poor, but the war with Ukraine is going to give him a chance to fix that. Doubt he’ll take, one of my issues with him is “Putin == KGB” and running a “gangster government” is probably part of the natural order for him and I assume others). Damaging and killing as many Slavs as possible has been a top agenda item since the 19th Century, so it’s another “embrace the healing power of and.” Although they’re certainly upset Putin and company are forcefully rejecting this gambit.

    If the NWO is the problem, then God is the solution. Now that the problem has been identified, we can go to work on solving it. Stay tuned.

    Well, yes, and that extends way beyond the domain of sexual degeneracy of this essay. But how to turn that principle into effective action, especially when so many Christian churches are pozzed is quite the problem. In my darker moods I have to agree with Fr. Seraphim Rose, “In the end, ALL the Churches will serve Antichrist. Which of course helps focus on some answers that might work, for example churches per se are at best a means to the end of “God is the solution.”

  • An interesting aspect of mathematician John von Neumann's personality was that he was the complete opposite of his friend at the Institute for Advanced Studies, the semi-crazed nerd genius Kurt Gödel. In contrast, von Neumann threw the best parties at IAS and he was beloved by American generals. From a 2000 article in Air Force...
  • @Diversity Heretic
    @Matt Buckalew

    I'm not sure how nuclear weapons development can advance in the absence of testing. The last time that I looked at the stockpile report, it was expressing doubts about the reliability of the stockpile in light of the fact that the nuclear weapons in it were designed with 20 year service lives, and have now been in service for much longer than that. Color me skeptical!

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Testing is indeed an obvious issue with these current warheads and any iterations made on old designs, but when looking at future threats you have to consider a nation considering a first strike or the credible ability to make on breaking the currently informal Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty by testing their designs, and from their viewpoint ideally the whole weapons system including the delivery part. That again emphasizes the value of a triad vs. for example putting all your eggs in one SLBM basket.

    If something important fails, they stop, leaving open the question about whether their other systems might work and maintaining deterrence. If they or enough of them work, things could get very interesting especially with target nations like the US having too much friction and compromise at the very top by countries like the PRC to respond in a timely manner if at all.

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @That Would Be Telling

    If, when delivered, a nuclear weapon delivers a "pop" when the commanders expected a "ka-boom," does it really matter how well the rest of the delivery system worked?

  • @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    I don't have an especially urgent desire to describe TS/SCI level intercept profiles to a random, severely misguided stranger off the internet. Just intern at Raytheon with your oddly pristine academic record like the rest of your ilk, dear comrade.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The intercept profile question is very simple, and is one you’ve been claiming without evidence but would be violating your TS/SCI gained secrets if indeed it was boost vs. the mid-course as we’ve always been told.

    After writing my last reply, it occurred to me it can’t possibly be boost profile because the usual suspects would be screaming bloody murder as they did in the 1980s about SDI because of how that would edge us towards the temptation of a first strike. So given those two facts, it’s clear you’re just making this up this claim out of whole cloth.

  • @That Would Be Telling
    @GeologyAnonMk5


    I don’t get where you’re getting your figures from.
     
    As I said, Wikipedia for the single 100 mile one; that's from the GAO for boost phase interception for the SM-3 Block IIB, and of course they might not be honest and IIB is an abandoned paper Power Point design.

    I'm not talking about risking these ships per se, just saying it doesn't make sense to use them as essentially fixed position ABM platforms unless of course we became plenty desperate and abandon a lot of missions they normally do (unless of course they've quietly become Fatherland Defense Barges). And contrary to lots of experience in the real world, have these systems turned on and operating when a threat arises.

    I can see a Kwajalein fired to off Hawaii, per Bing that's ~2,570 miles, being a boost phase intercept. But where are Russia's ICBM's located? I assume the PRC's are closer to the coastline, but being near there again as I said opens the gambit of taking out the ships before a first strike, which I gather the PRC is moving towards gaining the capability of trying.

    Is there any information you can point me at that describes the flight profiles of the ICBM and SM-3 for that "Flight Test Maritime-44 (FTM-44)" (the ones I just looked up aren't useful, quote or rewrite the government's press release which is non-technical, except for an artist's conception that's bogus for a real test against an ICBM at boost range).

    My point about VLS cells is that they place a firm limit on the energy/range of a missile that fits into them. Your claim about our Ohios is what we hope, but the point is that if they become vulnerable, the other legs of the triad are not likely to share the same problem; their's a point beyond which nation's survival should not be economized. And again, bombers can be launched on warning! That capability without committing yourself to warhead delivery is priceless.

    Replies: @GeologyAnonMk5

    I don’t have an especially urgent desire to describe TS/SCI level intercept profiles to a random, severely misguided stranger off the internet. Just intern at Raytheon with your oddly pristine academic record like the rest of your ilk, dear comrade.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @GeologyAnonMk5

    The intercept profile question is very simple, and is one you've been claiming without evidence but would be violating your TS/SCI gained secrets if indeed it was boost vs. the mid-course as we've always been told.

    After writing my last reply, it occurred to me it can't possibly be boost profile because the usual suspects would be screaming bloody murder as they did in the 1980s about SDI because of how that would edge us towards the temptation of a first strike. So given those two facts, it's clear you're just making this up this claim out of whole cloth.

  • @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    I don't get where you're getting your figures from. Wikipedia lists a range of 500 miles (which is lower than actual...) Last year a SM-3 off a DDG off Hawaii killed an ICBM fired from Kwajalein. We are talking way, way greater threat radius than 100nm, no idea where you got that figure. You say we wouldn't risk an AEGIS ship to get within engagement range of an ICBM based on this odd 100nm range figure, and 1) Again, the MEZ radius for a weapon that can literally enter orbit is, unsurprisingly, greater than 100nm, and 2) Big Navy would absolutely stand a DDG into danger if it meant even a chance the crew could prevent one or more US cities from getting a surprise suntan. We operate well within 100nm of "hostile" countries routinely as it is. Any captain or commodore would without question risk an enemy ASCM or Tacair attack if it meant even a slightly better chance of preventing a US city from being CNTL+ALT+DELETED. Not that they need too... because the range is far greater than you believe.

    For VLS cells, any mk41 VLS of sufficient cell height (so almost all but the very oldest DDGs, and All CGs) can carry the weapon. As far as the SM-6 goes, I was involved in that systems IOC testing. It's not doctrinally thought of as an ABM but it is an extremely energetic/fast accelerating missile. You might be able to successfully use it off label as an ABM, but given that every CSG or DESRON has multiple SM-3s embarked, which have proven capability to defeat even MIRV'd or penetration aid + MIRV weapons, it would be a weird situation where you have to try that out.

    And Launch on Warning is Dumb. Ohio class let's you think as long as you want, and then convert the enemies population centers into sunshine in... let's just say it would not be an awkward length of time to measure in seconds rather than minutes.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I don’t get where you’re getting your figures from.

    As I said, Wikipedia for the single 100 mile one; that’s from the GAO for boost phase interception for the SM-3 Block IIB, and of course they might not be honest and IIB is an abandoned paper Power Point design.

    I’m not talking about risking these ships per se, just saying it doesn’t make sense to use them as essentially fixed position ABM platforms unless of course we became plenty desperate and abandon a lot of missions they normally do (unless of course they’ve quietly become Fatherland Defense Barges). And contrary to lots of experience in the real world, have these systems turned on and operating when a threat arises.

    I can see a Kwajalein fired to off Hawaii, per Bing that’s ~2,570 miles, being a boost phase intercept. But where are Russia’s ICBM’s located? I assume the PRC’s are closer to the coastline, but being near there again as I said opens the gambit of taking out the ships before a first strike, which I gather the PRC is moving towards gaining the capability of trying.

    Is there any information you can point me at that describes the flight profiles of the ICBM and SM-3 for that “Flight Test Maritime-44 (FTM-44)” (the ones I just looked up aren’t useful, quote or rewrite the government’s press release which is non-technical, except for an artist’s conception that’s bogus for a real test against an ICBM at boost range).

    My point about VLS cells is that they place a firm limit on the energy/range of a missile that fits into them. Your claim about our Ohios is what we hope, but the point is that if they become vulnerable, the other legs of the triad are not likely to share the same problem; their’s a point beyond which nation’s survival should not be economized. And again, bombers can be launched on warning! That capability without committing yourself to warhead delivery is priceless.

    • Replies: @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    I don't have an especially urgent desire to describe TS/SCI level intercept profiles to a random, severely misguided stranger off the internet. Just intern at Raytheon with your oddly pristine academic record like the rest of your ilk, dear comrade.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  • @That Would Be Telling
    @Anonymous

    I'd be surprised if you understood a single technical detail of what this was all about, plus you've effectively fingered the wrong Jew.

    ENIAC was pretty amazing because of its conservative engineering with vacuum tubes, something you also see with U.K. 1943-5 Colossus, essentially an ASIC for breaking the Nazi Lorenz cypher which was used for more important stuff than the Enigma cypher. But both had very limited memory, essentially today's registers and whatever was used for I/O, paper tape of a sort for the latter's input, and were programmed with patch panels which took a long time to set up, and see below for 1939 prior art in electronic computing which Mauchly was formally aware of.

    And for that matter there's lots of electromechanical prior art; be it counting widgets, relays, vacuum tubed, transistors, or integrated circuits and the multiple generations of the latter two, there's a qualitative difference between computing and computers per se and the technologies used to implement them. But patents aren't my forte, are in fact very bad news in my field of software development.

    It was very obvious to everyone that when we could create sufficient amounts of cheaper memory (and boy was that a mess until core memory), programs would live in it along with data, and Herman Goldstine as noted prompted the hell out of Von Neumann's thoughts, ultimately resulting in the "Von Neumann" architecture nomenclature, which is used in all but a few relatively obscure niches compared to for example earlier "Harvard" architecture where programs and data live in quite different places like PIC microcontrollers.

    As for those patents, John Mauchly and Pres Eckert comprehensively lost, the list of deficiencies is much longer than I'd known or remembered. They most certainly did not invent even the electronic computer contrary to your first source (last can be found in the Wayback Machine).

    That honor goes to John Atanasoff and Clifford Berry and their 1939 one which while very modest is conceptually on a par with Mauchly and Eckert's ENIAC, plus there's more limited IBM prior art of a vacuum tube multiplier. Pretty sure that was IBM's first offering in the field, while it wasn't a tremendous advance over electromechanical multipliers Watson Jr. got his father to turn it into a product to get them started in the field, and it sold a lot more units than expected. Then they added a divider to the next model....

    Goldstine's dissemination of First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC is just one of twelve specific items in Wikipedia's distillation of key findings of the 248 page decision, and they paint Mauchly and Eckert in a terrible light: "Sperry Rand had tried to monopolize the electronic data processing industry in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act, on the basis of a cross-licensing agreement between Sperry Rand and IBM signed on August 21, 1956, but that only IBM had in fact succeeded in creating such a monopoly (Finding 15)."

    That was due to IBM's general competence in everything, getting experience in doing this sort of this ASAP, and for example cross fertilization with MIT's Project Whirlwind and SAGE. IBM for example knew anything like this needed to be divided into reasonably sized units that could fit in normal elevators and doorways (the latter sealed the ultimate fate of the Atanasoff-Berry computer) that could then be hooked up by cables. I recall reading the first model of the UNIVAC requiring serious disassembly and then reassembly at the customer's site.

    And I'll add due to a prior punched card antitrust settlement, IBM licensed all the computer technology it came up with on a FRAND basis, how for example the one half inch reel to reel tape drive became ubiquitous and disk drives became a general thing quickly. In addition Mauchly and Eckert filed their patent applications too long after the unveiling of ENIAC, plus what the judge saw as unproven "willful and intentional fraud on the U.S. Patent Office in filing the patent" which he wasn't in a position to criminally prosecute and was moot anyway, and OMG, the patent was so sloppy it originally wouldn't cover clock cycles greater than 1 MHz!

    So, yeah, Jewish ethnic promotion, but ultimately in this case not resulting in holding back progress or profiting until you can cite how that came into play through for example cross-licensing ... with an invalid patent.

    Colossus also beat ENIAC, but since Lorenz type machines were still in common use and it was only useful for the Nazi model of that so all but a couple were dismantled at the end of the war, it remained secret until the 1970s as I recall, and like in the US with some other secret computing projects people who'd worked on it then went on to do new and improved stuff a lot more openly.

    Meanwhile, this iSteve article and as I recall the previous one doesn't touch on whatever contributions Von Neumann did or did not made to computing (and he died before he could finish his work on next generation stuff), you're a very small man who can only hide behind an anonymous account and try to bite the ankles of your betters, be they Jew or gentile.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Steve Sailer

    Thanks.

    I thought I phrased it pretty well: “articulating in 1945 the von Neumann architecture that instantly became the standard way to design general-purpose computers; note that he didn’t invent the computer, but his clarity of mind and prestige helped get the American computer industry off to a quick start on the right foot”

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  • First half-hour: Eric Walberg discusses his latest book review “The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl” and expresses his dismay with the media’s moronic anti-Russia propaganda. Second half-hour: Eric Zuesse nominates Douglas Macgregor! From Eric Zuesse: We need Douglas Macgregor for U.S. President. Here is why: Democrats, Republicans, and independents, all need this person...
  • @mulga mumblebrain
    @That Would Be Telling

    Is there anything worse than a vicious moron posing as an 'expert? A thermonuclear war would unleash several orders of magnitude more soot, ash and sulphates etc, than even Pinatubo, which caused an appreciable cooling. This is, of course, sufficient to cause a cooling lasting decades, as if the survivors, if any, would care. To compare it to the oil fires (quickly extinguished-no fire brigade after nuclear war), caused by US air attacks, NOT Iraq, in 1991, is the work of a meat-head. Add to that the poisonous idiocy of denying anthropogenic climate destabilisation (on the basis of nomenclature!) as it proceeds far faster (and accelerating, with numerous positive feedbacks)than even the most pessimistic projections of a few years ago, is moral insanity and spiritual wickedness typical of the dead souls who deny the hideous reality, simply because it does not suit their barbarous, Life-hating, ideology.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Bernard Davis

    To compare it to the oil fires (quickly extinguished-no fire brigade after nuclear war), caused by US air attacks, NOT Iraq, in 1991, is the work of a meat-head.

    Those meat-heads were the “experts” who claimed nuclear winter would be a catastrophic thing.

    Otherwise there is no “of course” to anything you claim, you can wave your hands all you want without denying any specific I brought up, and I’ll repeat, the Earth is very big and we humans and our works are very small. Then again you believe in “climate change” despite its nomenclature being non-falsifiable and thus tell us it’s not science!

    That you’re on the side of Team Energy Poverty tells us who has “moral insanity and spiritual wickedness typical of the dead souls who deny the hideous reality, simply because it does not suit their barbarous, Life-hating, ideology.”

  • @SafeNow
    Douglas Macgregor or his like are not, alas, viable candidates for President because the US embraces what Joan Didion and others have called “the con style.” Examples abound. This predilection has recently been magnified, because what Philip Roth termed “the indigenous American berserk” is now rampant and endemic. The nuclear-ash-pile tipping point was likely reached. Okay, “likely” is evasive; I’ll bite and be quantitative: 50%. ThatWouldBeTelling, you’re the smartest guy in the room, please give us a probability number.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @anon

    So what’s probably of a US President “pressing the button”, and the US military following his orders, and that resulting in a “nuclear-ash-pile tipping point?”

    I thought I made it very clear the latter was a lie. As for the first two questions, they’re out of my areas of expertise, but we be pretty certain if it’s Trump, absent or maybe even if the homeland is getting bombarded, the US military would refuse. “Biden???” Who the hell knows. A future different President? I’m not a fortune teller.

    • Thanks: SafeNow
  • An interesting aspect of mathematician John von Neumann's personality was that he was the complete opposite of his friend at the Institute for Advanced Studies, the semi-crazed nerd genius Kurt Gödel. In contrast, von Neumann threw the best parties at IAS and he was beloved by American generals. From a 2000 article in Air Force...
  • @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    The SM-3 is a boost-phase/orbital kill ABM weapon carried on every US Navy CG and many DDGs for at least a decade, and has an operational kill against a satellite, which a S-Anything has never achieved. Hundreds of these weapons are deployed at sea right now, we aren't talking about something in prototype or low-rate initial production phases.

    I think the elites general disconcern about the chattel can be seen by how short of shrift we payed to civil defense compared to the Soviets, but factually you're off base about US boost phase ABMs, we field far more of them operationally (and close enough to launch sites to matter) than the entire rest of the planet several times over. Entire destroyer squadrons go on 12 month+ cruises pretty much exclusively in support of maintaining the boost-phase/orbital ABM blanket.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Your claim that the SM-3 is a boost as well as (hit to kill mid-)orbital phase ABM weapon disagrees with everything I’ve ever heard about it, and wouldn’t even vaguely have the range required for that mission. Per Wikipedia to put figures that make sense on this, the not-developed Block IIB would have to be within 100 miles of the launch site.

    That mission, and homeland defense in general given its range limitations built into the design from it being a Standard Missile that has to fit in a standard vertical launch cell envelope, doesn’t fit well with where our very expensive Aegis ships might be when an adversary launches, as well as the adversary having the option of trying to destroy the ships as part of an integrated attack plan, outside of course special cases like Japan defending itself from North Korea, also see the Obama “non-agreement capable” betrayal of Poland etc. where Iran is the danger being defended against.

    It’s also Officially only good for short and intermediate range missiles, but that’s maybe a lie, or not true for Block IIA, or maybe we’ll do a new block sooner or later, and also see the SM-6 which puts a AMRAAM seeker head with a bigger antenna on the front of a Standard Missile and per Wikipedia has had a successful test against a medium range missle.

    While the Air Force has or had aspirations for flying laser projectors, and maybe you can do that at distance from the ground (but probably not, plus see weather), credible boost phase interception has as far as I can remember always been in the domain of hitting a big, slow, massive thermal signature booster from high above.

    Perhaps the conventional orbital laser or other type of directed energy weapon satellite or integrate that into solar power satellites including for their self protection, perhaps Smart Rocks/Brilliant Pebbles placed in orbit, perhaps based on the expectation nothing in orbit will survive an adversary’s attack nuclear explosion pumped X ray/gamma ray lasers launched as soon as we see the enemy launching, each device taking out multiple boosters at once. But not a surface lauched missile with such a limiting envelope to begin with.

    • Replies: @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    I don't get where you're getting your figures from. Wikipedia lists a range of 500 miles (which is lower than actual...) Last year a SM-3 off a DDG off Hawaii killed an ICBM fired from Kwajalein. We are talking way, way greater threat radius than 100nm, no idea where you got that figure. You say we wouldn't risk an AEGIS ship to get within engagement range of an ICBM based on this odd 100nm range figure, and 1) Again, the MEZ radius for a weapon that can literally enter orbit is, unsurprisingly, greater than 100nm, and 2) Big Navy would absolutely stand a DDG into danger if it meant even a chance the crew could prevent one or more US cities from getting a surprise suntan. We operate well within 100nm of "hostile" countries routinely as it is. Any captain or commodore would without question risk an enemy ASCM or Tacair attack if it meant even a slightly better chance of preventing a US city from being CNTL+ALT+DELETED. Not that they need too... because the range is far greater than you believe.

    For VLS cells, any mk41 VLS of sufficient cell height (so almost all but the very oldest DDGs, and All CGs) can carry the weapon. As far as the SM-6 goes, I was involved in that systems IOC testing. It's not doctrinally thought of as an ABM but it is an extremely energetic/fast accelerating missile. You might be able to successfully use it off label as an ABM, but given that every CSG or DESRON has multiple SM-3s embarked, which have proven capability to defeat even MIRV'd or penetration aid + MIRV weapons, it would be a weird situation where you have to try that out.

    And Launch on Warning is Dumb. Ohio class let's you think as long as you want, and then convert the enemies population centers into sunshine in... let's just say it would not be an awkward length of time to measure in seconds rather than minutes.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  • @Muggles
    @Matt Buckalew


    The US’s nuclear weapon development over past decade has been truly remarkable.
     
    I guess we'll have to take your word for it. Since the government rarely allows discussion of that.

    Oh, and by the way, anyone see an fallout shelter lately?

    Surely some of the Boomers here remember those yellow/red signs with black triangles inside. I think those were marking designated fallout shelters in the school basement, or wherever.

    Since talk of nuking people seems to have come back into fashion, does the US government, God of Democracy (and the Democratic Party) have any plans for actually protecting the citizens?

    Other than for high government nomenklatura types, would anyone else survive a nuclear blast in their hometown, in a fallout shelter?

    The State spends billions on human extinction weapons and a few billion on protecting the monsters who run The State, but evidently zero on protecting you and me.

    When push comes to shove, they have lead underwear and bottled water and caviar, the rest of us (ordinary "muggles" some might say) will glow in the dark for a few brief days in agony.

    With Senile Joe as our leader, and Paranoid Putin as theirs, I'm sure my worries are just Boomer hangover from my feckless youth. Now where do I keep that 18 year old Scotch?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Achmed E. Newman, @Anonymous

    Since talk of nuking people seems to have come back into fashion, does the US government, God of Democracy (and the Democratic Party) have any plans for actually protecting the citizens?

    Yes, as or before the DoD Office of Civil Defense was turned into the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA!!!) the Democrats realized there would be more money for buying votes if real Civil Defense was changed into “crisis relocation.” That is, safely before cities would get nuked, their populations would be moved out into the hinterlands. Teddy Kennedy was involved in this….

    As for the populace, you’re confusing two different threats, being too near the explosion of a nuclear warhead, and the fallout it leaves behind. Lots of Americans will survive the latter just fine without taking special actions, lots more would be OK with just a little bit of information, and more if they read and follow the directions for expedient protections, eating afterwords, etc. in a green cover printed copy of Nuclear War Survival Skills.

    Which also includes blast shelters for the really serious but also improbably long to prepare, all this tested in the field with normie Americans and at least one non-nuclear massive explosion test for that and lots of other stuff, huge pile of ANFO was set off. The basic slit trench covered by doors and a foot of dirt to mitigate “sky shine” fallout shelter also performed well in that test. (Sky shine is gamma rays, high energy photons coming from fallout particles on the ground and being reflected off atoms in the air down into the trench.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @That Would Be Telling

    Thanks.

  • @Achmed E. Newman
    @Diversity Heretic

    Yes, there was a lot to it, D.H., not as simple as then there was no WWIII. What you discuss was called the nuclear Triad, or a Triad of nuclear deterrence if you think of it that way.*

    The defense against SAC air power was along the lines of the things that military types had been thinking about since the WWI days, so it was nothing new. You needed your intercepters (the really fast movers) and your comprehensive radar systems (like that old DEW line), and the many bases with long runways to allow these long-ranged planes to get deep in.

    The ICBMs were new, and the only defense against these things until "Star Wars" (initially bluffing, anyway) was the idea of striking the enemy's missile silos right away. This required much more accuracy in targeting, and I suppose different types of warheads designed to bust up huge masses of concrete rather than those that could just kill the most people and destroy the most infrastructure. There was a race there to build better silos and better warheads.

    Then there were the sub-based missiles. That was a brilliant idea, if you ask me. I always wondered, during that time, how the heck these things launched. This leg of the triad required the 2 superpowers to work on quieter submarines and better detection.

    There was a yin and yang for all 3 of these legs of the triad, offense and defense, with only the air power leg being one that military types and engineers had already put lots of thought and work into. For me, that was the coolest.

    In general, this technology race to keep up (or get ahead) on all 3 legs of the nuclear triad was a godsend for engineers and technicians on both sides. This was REALLY cool stuff. Unlike the big mostly-peacetime technology improvements of the last 3 decades, instead of touch screens, apps, icons, clouds, gay swiping and all that stuff, this was real, mostly mechanical/aero engineering involving and increasing the knowledge of the laws of physics. You had increases in speed, massive rocket engines, new chemical fuels, nuclear-power underwater, 15 crew-member airplanes weighing 410,000 lb. with 10 engines with 100 GALLON oil tanks and 56 spark plugs for each of the piston ones with a 3,500 nm combat range, then swept wing jet bombers....

    What a time to be an engineer! Yeah, maybe it was a precarious situation, but doesn't that beat hell out of working on a new "interface"?

    .

    * Which is correct, IMO, as nobody here wanted to unilaterally wipe out the USSR, but we had no trust that this feeling was mutual. It was a MAD MAD MAD MAD world, but MAD was actually quite sane, and compared to '22, it was a world of Dr. Spocks.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Diversity Heretic

    The ICBMs were new, and the only defense against these things until “Star Wars” (initially bluffing, anyway)

    Nope, we built our first mid-range and terminal intercept ABM system long before, and the Democratic Congress fully on the side of the Soviets by then canceled it a day after it went operational, see the Spartan and especially the insane 100g Sprint missiles and of course all their support systems.

    Multiple independent reentry vehicles (MIRVs) were part of the excuse for that, although a Spartan style intercept might have worked if it could have done it before the “bus” released all its warheads one at a time. And thus all the interest un boost phase intercept, which as mostly gone poof nowadays which is very telling about what it really driving today’s efforts, protection of the population isn’t even on the table unless it’s a few missiles from North Korea or Iran. Well, the Russians might be more serious, see some of the S-400 missile variants, that family/class has always had an (illegal during the ABM treaty) ABM role. And PRC has been cool with depopulation until very recently as their post-Mao one child policy inevitably went bad.

    The bomber third of the triad is vital because it’s the only part you can launch on warning, so if your warning is a mistake you can call them back, with PALs they couldn’t even fire off working warheads until they got the codes to unlock them. All three make pulling off a successful counter-force first strike nearly impossible, and even a modest ABM system and there’s no way because on top of your systems’ reliability issues you don’t get to pick which warheads get intercepted.

    The period you describe was indeed from everything I’ve heard a wonderful time for engineers, I came of political age a little before we generally gave up on it and everything and among other things adopted a policy of energy poverty which the West’s ruling trash is so, so upset today to extend to a virtual blockade of Russian oil and gas. That resulted in an early 1970s and to this day still pretty permanent crash in aero-astro, which confirmed the wisdom of MIT’s policy of not letting departments get too big in terms of tenured professors and face losing reprogramming of buildings (and that of course implicitly puts a cap on grad student populations, which then can result in high teaching loads like EECS until the dot.com bust).

    • Replies: @GeologyAnonMk5
    @That Would Be Telling

    The SM-3 is a boost-phase/orbital kill ABM weapon carried on every US Navy CG and many DDGs for at least a decade, and has an operational kill against a satellite, which a S-Anything has never achieved. Hundreds of these weapons are deployed at sea right now, we aren't talking about something in prototype or low-rate initial production phases.

    I think the elites general disconcern about the chattel can be seen by how short of shrift we payed to civil defense compared to the Soviets, but factually you're off base about US boost phase ABMs, we field far more of them operationally (and close enough to launch sites to matter) than the entire rest of the planet several times over. Entire destroyer squadrons go on 12 month+ cruises pretty much exclusively in support of maintaining the boost-phase/orbital ABM blanket.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  • @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    Not only were the IBM mainframes broken up into reasonably (mostly refrigerator sized) units (although you needed a forklift to move the first hard disk because it was so massive) but the innards were very modular - everything was on plug in cards, dozens and dozens of cards (never mind that all those dozens of cards today would be a single chip). That way, if something broke the technician would just quickly swap out the card with a different unit and the defective card could be repaired later at a repair depot (or not). Even today on Lenovo computers (the descendants of IBM) they have the concept of the FRU (the Field Replaceable Unit). Every part of a Lenovo that is swappable in the field is still called a FRU.

    You really have to take Eckert and Mauchly's version of history with a grain of salt. They did not end up being billionaires from "their" invention and they were very bitter about it. OTOH, they accepted government funding for ENIAC but OTOH they wanted to own the IP. They wanted to socialize the costs and privatize the gains and it didn't fully work out for them. Their loss was society's gain.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Contrary to your prior comment, from mostly memory I believe the Eckert and Mauchly team grasped the concept of a stored program computer computer, and the utility of it was certainly evident based on the cumbersome patch panel nature of programming their ENIAC you describe, which as I recall did at least one useful job for the Manhattan Project.

    Konrad Zuse in Germany deserves mention if only because per Wikipedia he’s credited with anticipating the concept in 1936 with “two patent applications that machine instructions could be stored in the same storage used for data” so that’s on the official record.

    To reiterate and expand on a bit, the heritage of the idea and thus its official record is not completely clear because of the difficulties of reducing it to practice. The EDVAC and UNIVAC used mercury acoustic delay lines, long horizontal columns of that with an actuator at one end that created pulses and a receiver at the other that read them, with hardware in between to regenerate the memory as well as read and write values to it. Wikipedia says the general concept goes back to analog work in the 1920s, and Project Whirlwind was desperate enough to consider doing this with a (microwave?) radio links to and back from western Massachusetts.

    The U.K. CRT based Williams Tube was the first DRAM, although I’m not sure how reliable it ever was (per IBM evidently enough for scientists but not businessmen). The 1932 magnetic drum was used a lot, the 1954 IBM 650 was the first mass produced computer and used that for its main memory. It wasn’t until Project Whirlwind that 3D magnetic core memory was developed and reduced to practice as their version of Williams Tubes were not working out very well. That got us our first “fast,” reliable and affordable enough RAM (no D for dynamic, didn’t require regeneration) which despite many other efforts ruled until static and dynamic silicon chip RAM fairly slowly displaced it (the S in Cray 1S was for that model using super fast static RAM for its main memory, while IBM was using it through an internal development Intel was the first to sell it commercially, the 1103 with a whopping 1024 or a kilobit of memory).

    My assumption is von Neumann wrote up an elegant description of the whole stored program computer concept which was in part based on Turing’s theoretical work, but was at most formalizing it all. It wasn’t by any means how he thought we should really be doing computing, I’ve read or been told that was based on automata although I’m not sure if it could have been easily programed by mere mortals.

    Eckert and Mauchly’s story is long and kinda sad, Wikipedia reminds me “new university policies that would have forced Eckert and Mauchly to sign over intellectual property rights for their inventions led to their resignation,” the University of Pennsylvania went from #1 in the world to essentially nothing in the space of a year and that significantly delayed the EDVAC (that’s another government project as most early computers were). On their own they almost ran out of money and their first big investor who then helped died in plane crash, Remington Rand eventually bought their company. Another thing to make Mauchly bitter was that included a ten year non-compete so he was sidelined for eight years after resigning in 1952 (that’s a not so hidden secret of California’s general high tech success, although it wouldn’t have been for a principal like him).

    Another factor would be I think IBM running a survey, don’t know if they made it public but it would have been in the air, that everyone had heard of the UNIVAC and everyone thought it was made by IBM….

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    They may have grasped it (and implemented it in their later work) but given the extremely crude architecture and limited memory of ENIAC, I'm not sure that they implemented it. As I understand ENIAC, if you wanted to add the value of register A to register B and store it in register C you would physically patch the output of A and B to the adder circuit and then take the output of that circuit and patch it to the device where register C was stored. So the arrangement of the patch cords was the "program".

    They barely had enough memory to store their data let alone the programs, but it probably was obvious to them that if you had enough memory the instructions themselves could be stored in memory and not just the data.

    Again, if you read their reaction, von Neumann was this high falutin' conceptual "math" guy who flew at 50,000 feet while they were the guys who were out there dealing with the tubes and delay lines and stuff that actually did the work and all that he did was to steal their idea and convert the concrete work they had already done into an abstraction. Maybe this is true but abstracting a concrete work into a comprehensive theoretical framework is not as easy as it sounds.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling


    which as I recall did at least one useful job for the Manhattan Project.
     
    A slightly later (post war) version of ENIAC ran a Monte Carlo simulation program that was written by von Neumann and his wife. Because the patch panel thing was so cumbersome, eventually they figured out that they could put programs into a form of ROM which was really a bunch of DIP switches that they had formerly used for storing constants. So "programming" was flipping a whole bunch of DIP switches with binary values, which was still pretty cumbersome but less cumbersome than moving patch cords. This is still not the same thing as putting programs into RAM but to this day computers boot up from a boot sequence that is stored in ROM.

    The link below gives a lot of detail and shows why it is so hard to say who was "first":

    https://computerhistory.org/blog/programming-the-eniac-an-example-of-why-computer-history-is-hard

    But whatever the true story was, it wasn't anything like Anonymous's twisted anti-Semitic version of it or even Eckert's version which was distorted by his personal financial interest.
  • @Anonymous
    It's always amusing to observe uninformed hero worship.

    Here are some choice quotes about the Salesman from the Future by Presper Eckert, who, along with John Mauchly, invented the ENIAC, and Jean Bartik, one of its first programmers:


    STERN: When von Neumann came, did it lend any kind of prestige to the project?
    ECKERT: Well, in the first place, I was not familiar with great mathematicians so I hadn't heard of him. Von Neumann didn't mean any more to me than Joe Apple or something. I know Goldstine was very impressed. Goldstine was pretty impressed with everybody--I didn't know what to make of that. In fact, that was a kind of joke--that Goldstine was impressed with everybody all the time. And, so it didn't mean very much. I got to know von Neumann and I thought he was very quick mentally in mathematics and things. He grasped what we were doing quite quickly. I didn't know he was going to go out and more or less claim it as his own. He not only did that, but he did it at the time when the material was classified, and I was not allowed to go out and make speeches about it. And he went out and made them anyway without clearance and got out of it because nobody wanted to come down with the Espionage Act on a prestigious guy. If I had done it, they would have come down on me with a ton of bricks. So he just used his prestige to pull a Pentagon paper deal as far as I'm concerned.
    STERN: This was called a draft report. Now is it possible that anyone within the Moore School....
    ECKERT: It wasn't even a draft when he wrote it. He wrote these as letters to Goldstine, and when we asked what he was doing this for at the time, Goldstine said, "He's just trying to get these things clear in his own mind and he's done it by writing me letters so that we can write back if he hasn't understood it properly." That's the basis in which he wrote it.
    STERN: So it was never made clear that this was supposed to be an informal report.
    ECKERT: I told you what it was.
    STERN: So it came as a complete surprise?
    ECKERT: You know, we finally regarded von Neumann as a huckster of other people's ideas with Goldstine as his principle mission salesman. Now, if you don't believe this, talk to Julian Bigelow at the Institute for Advanced Study who holds a position that Einstein held during his life. He is a person of some reputation. I was going to work with von Neumann at the Institute part time and we were supposed to have a three-way deal with the Moore School, but von Neumann got into terrible fights with Dr. Pender, and I couldn't work.
    STERN: Over what?
    ECKERT: Von Neumann was stealing ideas and trying to pretend work done at the Moore School was work he had done.

     

    [emphasis mine]

    Jean Bartik in reviewing a book on the history of the ENIAC on Amazon:


    This is a book that needed to be written, and Scott has made it clear that John Mauchly and Pres Eckert did invent and build the first electronic computer. He does describe in rational details the betrayal of John [Mauchly] and Pres by Herman Goldstine and John von Neuamnn.
    ...
    Johnny von Neumann never even heard of it until its design was frozen and the machine was nearly built. Although he was a consultant to Aberdeen, nobody told him about ENIAC because its backers also felt it would probably flop. Herman informed him of it on a railroad platform and invited him to come see it. Von Newmann was immediately captivated by it. When told meetings were already underway for a successor machine called the EDVAC (Electronic Digital Automatic Computer) he asked to join them.
    ...
    One day, Goldstine came in with what appeared to be minutes of the EDVAC meetings sent back by von Neumann. EDVAC was a classified project and Herman was the security officer. Pres and John were not allowed to publish articles on either the ENIAC or EDVAC, but Herman managed to distribute von Neumann's notes widely in government and university circles. Von Neumann's note gave scant recognition to Pres or Joihn or anybody, thus the paper appeared ro be a product of von Newmann's fertile mind. Thus, the mistaken belief that von Neumann invented the stored program computer. EDVAC used a stored program. Imagine, when Pres and John applied for an EDVAC patent, they found that ambitious duo of Johnny and Herman had already applied. When confronted with this duplicity, von Neumann said he did it to ensure that the EDVAC patent would be in the public domain and not be used for commercial purposes. You bet.

     

    They say "success has a thousand fathers" ... well, in the rearing of computing, was Neumann a father? Perhaps in the sense of your mom's fourth live-in boyfriend who stole the car and ran away with the babysitter kind of a "father."

    Now, I don't know what you guys think, but my view is that whenever a gentile invents something the credit should be given to some "Neumann" who the press endlessly promotes and goes gaga over, and who then "selflessly and graciously" "gifts" "his" invention to the public domain in order to "promote a vibrant competitive industry." On the other hand, whenever a "Neumann" invents something he should retain the intellectual property rights and commercialize the heck out of it. It's only fair -- because of all the pogroms and holocausts and stuff.

    Source for Bartik:
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3K2DSB6UE1X7H/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0802713483
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bartik

    Source for Eckert:
    https://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/11299/107275

    Replies: @Paul Jolliffe, @That Would Be Telling, @Jack D

    I’d be surprised if you understood a single technical detail of what this was all about, plus you’ve effectively fingered the wrong Jew.

    ENIAC was pretty amazing because of its conservative engineering with vacuum tubes, something you also see with U.K. 1943-5 Colossus, essentially an ASIC for breaking the Nazi Lorenz cypher which was used for more important stuff than the Enigma cypher. But both had very limited memory, essentially today’s registers and whatever was used for I/O, paper tape of a sort for the latter’s input, and were programmed with patch panels which took a long time to set up, and see below for 1939 prior art in electronic computing which Mauchly was formally aware of.

    And for that matter there’s lots of electromechanical prior art; be it counting widgets, relays, vacuum tubed, transistors, or integrated circuits and the multiple generations of the latter two, there’s a qualitative difference between computing and computers per se and the technologies used to implement them. But patents aren’t my forte, are in fact very bad news in my field of software development.

    It was very obvious to everyone that when we could create sufficient amounts of cheaper memory (and boy was that a mess until core memory), programs would live in it along with data, and Herman Goldstine as noted prompted the hell out of Von Neumann’s thoughts, ultimately resulting in the “Von Neumann” architecture nomenclature, which is used in all but a few relatively obscure niches compared to for example earlier “Harvard” architecture where programs and data live in quite different places like PIC microcontrollers.

    As for those patents, John Mauchly and Pres Eckert comprehensively lost, the list of deficiencies is much longer than I’d known or remembered. They most certainly did not invent even the electronic computer contrary to your first source (last can be found in the Wayback Machine).

    That honor goes to John Atanasoff and Clifford Berry and their 1939 one which while very modest is conceptually on a par with Mauchly and Eckert’s ENIAC, plus there’s more limited IBM prior art of a vacuum tube multiplier. Pretty sure that was IBM’s first offering in the field, while it wasn’t a tremendous advance over electromechanical multipliers Watson Jr. got his father to turn it into a product to get them started in the field, and it sold a lot more units than expected. Then they added a divider to the next model….

    Goldstine’s dissemination of First Draft of a Report on the EDVAC is just one of twelve specific items in Wikipedia’s distillation of key findings of the 248 page decision, and they paint Mauchly and Eckert in a terrible light: “Sperry Rand had tried to monopolize the electronic data processing industry in violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act, on the basis of a cross-licensing agreement between Sperry Rand and IBM signed on August 21, 1956, but that only IBM had in fact succeeded in creating such a monopoly (Finding 15).”

    That was due to IBM’s general competence in everything, getting experience in doing this sort of this ASAP, and for example cross fertilization with MIT’s Project Whirlwind and SAGE. IBM for example knew anything like this needed to be divided into reasonably sized units that could fit in normal elevators and doorways (the latter sealed the ultimate fate of the Atanasoff-Berry computer) that could then be hooked up by cables. I recall reading the first model of the UNIVAC requiring serious disassembly and then reassembly at the customer’s site.

    And I’ll add due to a prior punched card antitrust settlement, IBM licensed all the computer technology it came up with on a FRAND basis, how for example the one half inch reel to reel tape drive became ubiquitous and disk drives became a general thing quickly. In addition Mauchly and Eckert filed their patent applications too long after the unveiling of ENIAC, plus what the judge saw as unproven “willful and intentional fraud on the U.S. Patent Office in filing the patent” which he wasn’t in a position to criminally prosecute and was moot anyway, and OMG, the patent was so sloppy it originally wouldn’t cover clock cycles greater than 1 MHz!

    So, yeah, Jewish ethnic promotion, but ultimately in this case not resulting in holding back progress or profiting until you can cite how that came into play through for example cross-licensing … with an invalid patent.

    Colossus also beat ENIAC, but since Lorenz type machines were still in common use and it was only useful for the Nazi model of that so all but a couple were dismantled at the end of the war, it remained secret until the 1970s as I recall, and like in the US with some other secret computing projects people who’d worked on it then went on to do new and improved stuff a lot more openly.

    Meanwhile, this iSteve article and as I recall the previous one doesn’t touch on whatever contributions Von Neumann did or did not made to computing (and he died before he could finish his work on next generation stuff), you’re a very small man who can only hide behind an anonymous account and try to bite the ankles of your betters, be they Jew or gentile.

    • Thanks: MEH 0910
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    Not only were the IBM mainframes broken up into reasonably (mostly refrigerator sized) units (although you needed a forklift to move the first hard disk because it was so massive) but the innards were very modular - everything was on plug in cards, dozens and dozens of cards (never mind that all those dozens of cards today would be a single chip). That way, if something broke the technician would just quickly swap out the card with a different unit and the defective card could be repaired later at a repair depot (or not). Even today on Lenovo computers (the descendants of IBM) they have the concept of the FRU (the Field Replaceable Unit). Every part of a Lenovo that is swappable in the field is still called a FRU.

    You really have to take Eckert and Mauchly's version of history with a grain of salt. They did not end up being billionaires from "their" invention and they were very bitter about it. OTOH, they accepted government funding for ENIAC but OTOH they wanted to own the IP. They wanted to socialize the costs and privatize the gains and it didn't fully work out for them. Their loss was society's gain.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @Steve Sailer
    @That Would Be Telling

    Thanks.

    I thought I phrased it pretty well: "articulating in 1945 the von Neumann architecture that instantly became the standard way to design general-purpose computers; note that he didn’t invent the computer, but his clarity of mind and prestige helped get the American computer industry off to a quick start on the right foot"

  • First half-hour: Eric Walberg discusses his latest book review “The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl” and expresses his dismay with the media’s moronic anti-Russia propaganda. Second half-hour: Eric Zuesse nominates Douglas Macgregor! From Eric Zuesse: We need Douglas Macgregor for U.S. President. Here is why: Democrats, Republicans, and independents, all need this person...
  • @Kevin Barrett
    @That Would Be Telling

    Excellent points. I haven't kept up on the "nuclear winter" research but last I checked, some experts think that if even a few hundred nuclear warheads go off there would be many years of extremely low temperatures, little sunlight, and virtually no food production. That obviously wouldn't end life on earth, but it would kill most people. Wait a minute: Depopulation plus an end to global warming! That's just what Dr. Oligarch ordered!

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I’ve “kept up” with “nuclear winter” research starting with the very first “TTAPS” paper on it published in Science and it’s garbage from the same sorts of people who’ve served us up with global cooling, oops global warming and now the unfalsifiable climate change. Note the name from the order of the author’s last names, Sagan the last, they hired a PR firm before their paper was published.

    It started as an attempt to give a scientific gloss on Jonathan Schell’s execrable The Fate of the Earth. In order to come up with its results, there’s at least three highly questionable to fraudulent details: how many cities, facilities like oil refineries and forests in the vicinity of missile silos would a nuclear war set ablaze, what size soot would they produce (they provided no source or justification for the range they chose), and worst of all they fed it into a one dimensional model of the Earth. That is, particles could go up or down, but there were no winds, oceans, basically anything resembling the real Earth.

    I read quite credibly these models are easy to overbalance, “tip over” and spit out completely erroneous results, and the 3D models later applied to the problem said at worst, depending on what time of the year it would happen, we’d have up to as I recall up to three cold quarters. Compare to some of the recent enough recorded history volcanic eruptions and resultant volcanic winters as Wikipedia titles them, 1600 is a good place to start. Those are different phenomena but give you one well established angle for comparison.

    Wikipedia has a pretty good summary paragraph of what followed, see also the detailed account, even its editors can’t put lipstick on this pig:

    After the failure of the predictions on the effects of the 1991 Kuwait oil fires that were made by the primary team of climatologists that advocate the hypothesis, over a decade passed without any new published papers on the topic. More recently, the same team of prominent modellers from the 1980s have begun again to publish the outputs of computer models. These newer models produce the same general findings as their old ones, namely that the ignition of 100 firestorms, each comparable in intensity to that observed in Hiroshima in 1945, could produce a “small” nuclear winter. These firestorms would result in the injection of soot (specifically black carbon) into the Earth’s stratosphere, producing an anti-greenhouse effect that would lower the Earth’s surface temperature. The severity of this cooling in Alan Robock’s model suggests that the cumulative products of 100 of these firestorms could cool the global climate by approximately 1 °C (1.8 °F), largely eliminating the magnitude of anthropogenic global warming for the next roughly two or three years. Robock has not modeled this, but has speculated that it would have global agricultural losses as a consequence.

    Another issue which I’d need to review is the claims about city “firestorms.” If as I recall they were referring to a real firestorm like the one that helped wipe out sixteen square miles of Tokyo, you need a certain fuel load to create the air currents phenomena that lofts a lot of stuff up fairly high. There’s one city in the US with that as of the 1980s, Somerville, MA which is wall to wall triple deckers and three story Philadelphias (I happened to spend a lot of time there in the latter half of the 1980s).

    • Replies: @mulga mumblebrain
    @That Would Be Telling

    Is there anything worse than a vicious moron posing as an 'expert? A thermonuclear war would unleash several orders of magnitude more soot, ash and sulphates etc, than even Pinatubo, which caused an appreciable cooling. This is, of course, sufficient to cause a cooling lasting decades, as if the survivors, if any, would care. To compare it to the oil fires (quickly extinguished-no fire brigade after nuclear war), caused by US air attacks, NOT Iraq, in 1991, is the work of a meat-head. Add to that the poisonous idiocy of denying anthropogenic climate destabilisation (on the basis of nomenclature!) as it proceeds far faster (and accelerating, with numerous positive feedbacks)than even the most pessimistic projections of a few years ago, is moral insanity and spiritual wickedness typical of the dead souls who deny the hideous reality, simply because it does not suit their barbarous, Life-hating, ideology.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Bernard Davis

  • Your case against WWIII would be a lot stronger if you didn’t fantastically exaggerate the effects to “end all life on this planet.” The Earth is very big and we humans are very small, it’s extreme hubris to imagine we could accomplish such a feat without specifically intending it.

    Given the decreases in US and Soviet to now Russia nuclear inventories, they for example no long have 40,000 warheads they might be able to use makes this all the more ludicrous.

    On the other hand it would not be remiss to get a paper copy of the green cover edition of Nuclear War Survival Skills which covers all relevant topics for expedient survival and read and skim it now and take some relevant steps.

    • Replies: @Kevin Barrett
    @That Would Be Telling

    Excellent points. I haven't kept up on the "nuclear winter" research but last I checked, some experts think that if even a few hundred nuclear warheads go off there would be many years of extremely low temperatures, little sunlight, and virtually no food production. That obviously wouldn't end life on earth, but it would kill most people. Wait a minute: Depopulation plus an end to global warming! That's just what Dr. Oligarch ordered!

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @mulga mumblebrain
    @That Would Be Telling

    After a thermonuclear war various 'extremophile' micro-organisms will survive, so you have nothing to worry about.

    Replies: @René Fries, @Anon

  • An iSteve commenter asks: With the crime rate up during the "racial reckoning," it's worth asking for comments on the safety of the streets around colleges that attract out-of-towners, such as Penn in the Ivy League. I'll begin with my impression of SoCal colleges. Keep in mind that I'm 6'4" and I don't get much...
  • @Recently Based
    @That Would Be Telling

    I wandered around there very late at night pretty routinely, and never really saw any problems, and this was decades ago when the area was worse (though I almost always was inside the campus rather than out on Memorial Drive, as you suggest).

    The only terrible advice in your column is living in East Campus. They are a bunch of no-date-getting, acid-dropping, depressive freaks. All of the 10-keg ragers are in West Campus or across the river.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The only terrible advice in your column is living in East Campus. They are a bunch of no-date-getting, acid-dropping, depressive freaks.

    In the early 1980s East Campus culture wildly depended on the floor (there are ten, five in two parallel buildings with grass in between them). There were floors with that sort of culture, and ones with much better ones.

    All of the 10-keg ragers are in West Campus or across the river.

    One of the latter got a freshman residing there dead, changing MIT’s very old pattern of having a lot of students immediately join fraternities when they showed up to requiring them to spend their first year in an on campus dorm once enough new ones were built. From inside reports the Institution was terrified of getting sued into the ground on that case, fortunately the family wasn’t quite that bloody minded.

  • @Anon
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Whenever they build a significant new building, MIT hires the most cutting-edge architect possible to do whatever type of architecture is on the cutting edge at that moment. As a result, the campus has no architectural coherence whatsoever.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @That Would Be Telling

    Depends on how much money MIT has available, a lot of the buildings are more constrained by cost. Note a lot of donation money for colleges in general is not fungible, alumni don’t always trust the school to spend it well, and see Princeton and the Wilson Center for an extreme example.

    _Some_ of the cutting edge buildings are pretty damned cool I think, as someone who generally hates modern architecture and loves the original buildings built in Cambridge. Note also I.M. Pei “received his B.Arch. degree in 1940” from MIT (and is totally not at fault for the Hancock Tower execution problems), and was a designer the Green Building AKA Building 54. The tallest in the campus, appropriate in many ways as the home for the Department of Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences, the middle and maybe last needing instruments way high up.

    However the (((Frank Gehry))) Stata Center that our host mentions in his reply is a catastrophic disaster as a useful space for computer science people to do all their things (details on request, although not all of it is the fault his or the other professionals, for example too much attention was paid to Michael Dertouzos’ vision of what it should be like so no offices with a door for you).

    A counter-example the the EG&G Building 34, the severe space constraints gave the architect a good excuse to design it in the shape of an egg and it’s a good building for its users, and is well build, I watched it from the start where they used a very interesting method to create the piles for its foundation.

  • @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    To put that in perspective, that happened 20 years ago. So 1 murder in 20 years is a fluke. Your risk of being driven insane by the stress of MIT and killing yourself is much greater.

    Now that you mention it, Hayden isn't really much of a library, certainly not compared to Widener at Harvard. I guess that for a STEM heavy university, everything today is pretty much online and most people have no reason to visit it.

    I guess that the Memorial Drive side is kind of empty and deserted at night but I wouldn't think of it as particularly unsafe because it's not really close to any ghetto - it's more uninhabited than unsafe. If you are a mugger, you're going to have far to travel and when you get there, there aren't really going to be many victims around carrying much of value. The Norwegian undergrad who was stabbed had $33 on him.

    They've completely renovated the project on Main St. I don't know whether they've upgraded the tenants but the circa 1938 buildings look a lot better.

    The guy who killed him got out in 10 years because he was only 15. His accomplice who didn't wield the knife but started the mugging by punching the victim was 18 so he got life for felony murder, but after some do gooder started a campaign, he got out after 20 yrs at age 38.

    Accomplice #3, a Hispanic dude, testified against his buddies and he got out after 8.

    https://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2015/winter/featured-stories/justice.html

    The Norwegian guy is still dead.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    To put that in perspective, that happened 20 years ago. So 1 murder in 20 years is a fluke.

    Still bad news if it’s you. In as you note soft on crime Cambridge.

    Mostly it’s an illustration that a place you might have thought was safe very much wasn’t. In probably any urban campus you have to learn the boundaries that match your acceptable risk.

    Now that you mention it, Hayden isn’t really much of a library, certainly not compared to Widener at Harvard.

    Very few libraries in the world can compare to Widener.

    I guess that for a STEM heavy university, everything today is pretty much online and most people have no reason to visit it.

    Depends, there are topic specific libraries that I found to be very good in the 1980s, including the “management and social sciences” one for the latter. The Great Dome supports the ceiling for the engineering one. It’s just that Hayden is the general library, and in Boston it doesn’t make a lot of sense for MIT to try make that one “great.”

    They’ve completely renovated the project on Main St. I don’t know whether they’ve upgraded the tenants but the circa 1938 buildings look a lot better.

    As I said, it goes in cycles, which I was told tend to go along with regular renovations. But I also don’t know the current 2020 BLM summer of love and after secular trends, or how they might for example have been changed by COVID and work from home, which we’re guessing has a lot to do with a lot of blacks bashing Asians in big cities by removing a bunch of white “fish” which provided the Asians a safer, more crowded sea in which to travel.

  • @Sgt Sternhammer
    Harvard is pretty safe for students, not for their property. Lots of drug addicts in Harvard Square, and bikes disappear every day. Don't leave your wallet in a classroom on a break. Bums wander in and students consider it racist for the Harvard police to kick them out.

    MIT had been safer in the buildings, but lately the black students have demanded that the alert system (sends everyone an email when a criminal is plying his trade around) stop telling everyone what race the thieves are (it was always the same, so you don't really need the information). MIT housing blends into Cambridge and Boston, so there isn't a clear bubble. Those fringes are where the occasional student gets knifed.

    Boston University is even more integrated into the city. Risky in parts. So everyone is careful.

    Boston College is in semi-suburban Chestnut Hill. Decent walk from the T to the heart of campus. Safest place in the city. The student body is basically a big extended Catholic family. Plenty of older brothers around if some mope wants trouble. Outside the cafeteria there is a big table and people leave their laptops on it, and are confident that it's still there 3 hours later when they remember it. Bikes are often unlocked (unheard of in any part of Cambridge). You might get vomited on, and there might be a punch-up between two drunk hockey players, but it will be accidental if anything happens to you.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    MIT housing blends into Cambridge and Boston, so there isn’t a clear bubble. Those fringes are where the occasional student gets knifed.

    Or not. One was knifed to death “in front of the main library,” but that’s not quite as bad as it sounds, that library isn’t really very good and the murder was on the side facing the river where you never have to travel, vs. the “inside” part of the bubble of the campus that’s well protected by the Campus Police except for property crimes. The perp was a white local teenager, one of those sociopathic stone killer types. Most of the crimes are of course by blacks.

    My advice is the usual in any urban areas, find a safe location to start with, the East Campus dorms might be to your liking and are great for attending classes, and find out what parts are safe and which not so safe, where are the edges of the bubble. The housing projects on Main Street if they’re still there were very much not when they’re in a down cycle, but that’s not anywhere you have to travel on foot. it’s a shortcut between Kendall and Central Square.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    To put that in perspective, that happened 20 years ago. So 1 murder in 20 years is a fluke. Your risk of being driven insane by the stress of MIT and killing yourself is much greater.

    Now that you mention it, Hayden isn't really much of a library, certainly not compared to Widener at Harvard. I guess that for a STEM heavy university, everything today is pretty much online and most people have no reason to visit it.

    I guess that the Memorial Drive side is kind of empty and deserted at night but I wouldn't think of it as particularly unsafe because it's not really close to any ghetto - it's more uninhabited than unsafe. If you are a mugger, you're going to have far to travel and when you get there, there aren't really going to be many victims around carrying much of value. The Norwegian undergrad who was stabbed had $33 on him.

    They've completely renovated the project on Main St. I don't know whether they've upgraded the tenants but the circa 1938 buildings look a lot better.

    The guy who killed him got out in 10 years because he was only 15. His accomplice who didn't wield the knife but started the mugging by punching the victim was 18 so he got life for felony murder, but after some do gooder started a campaign, he got out after 20 yrs at age 38.

    Accomplice #3, a Hispanic dude, testified against his buddies and he got out after 8.

    https://www.brandeis.edu/magazine/2015/winter/featured-stories/justice.html

    The Norwegian guy is still dead.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    , @Recently Based
    @That Would Be Telling

    I wandered around there very late at night pretty routinely, and never really saw any problems, and this was decades ago when the area was worse (though I almost always was inside the campus rather than out on Memorial Drive, as you suggest).

    The only terrible advice in your column is living in East Campus. They are a bunch of no-date-getting, acid-dropping, depressive freaks. All of the 10-keg ragers are in West Campus or across the river.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  • Marilyn M. Singleton discusses her new article “Real Americans and the American Oligarchy.” In it she writes: “Federal and state governments have used Covid as a justification to cross the line from public safety measures into tyranny. Despite the decreasing Covid cases, the national Covid emergency declaration was extended beyond March 1, 2022. The national...
  • “If tracking our computer use doesn’t work, we have the National Patient ID, a single number issued by the federal government containing all the details of a person’s medical records from cradle to grave…”

    The linked take on the advocacy of a National Patient ID was well picked, it has some amazing garbage. While I suppose this may not apply to Congressmen who have their own gold plated healthcare benefit system, pretty much everyone in the real world knows that the system works not just on names, which would be idiotic, but them plus date of birth (DOB). And implicitly that healthcare is generally delivered locally so someone in San Francisco with the same name and DOB isn’t likely to be confused with someone in Manhattan Island. To make a solid case you’d have to show this doublet or triplet is resulting in too many collisions.

    Second, it’s my understanding a single identifier would be the least of the challenges in achieving the stated goals. While Obama’s “stimulus” required “meaningful use” of electronic healthcare records (EHRs), and those two words turned into “750 pages of regulations” per a friend in the industry and obvious to most of us has resulted in too many healthcare providers looking at a screen instead of their patients while they for example made enough red lights turn green to prove meaningful use, it didn’t require the EHRs to be interoperable.

    That sort of thing is a massive IT challenge, would be very expensive, take a long time, and would almost certainly result in a least common denominator approach where information would be lost going from A to B. Where B would likely be an exchange so you don’t have a N time M requirement of every EHR system being required to interface to every other one, and for our concerns, a limited number of throats to choke by bad actors.

    Note also EHRs are a cost center to healthcare providers, meaning they will never get the respect and resources computer systems get for companies that are based on them like Google’s or Microsoft’s (and you probably know by now the rough edges or worse in those). That puts strict limits on what you can actually accomplish in the real world.

    Might be good to mention SWIFT here since it’s so much in the news; it’s a messaging system, not the means for transferring funds which uses correspondent accounts between banks. See how much effort was required to standardize and implement its much more simple information transfers.

  • The United States, which is now officially a rogue state, acting out to inflict terror on the entire world in the name of supporting a fake war they cannot hope to win, has begun more aggressively lashing out against the rest of the world. The current US Administration appears to be confused as to why...
  • When state governments like Michigan and Vermont were willing to prevent people from gardening, it would be astounding if they didn’t attack “the Second Amendment” by also closing down its venues as “not essential.” Here’s one report from January on litigation arising from that in California where “Ventura County’s COVID-19 public health orders mandating a 48-day closure of gun shops, ammunition shops, and firing ranges violated plaintiffs’ Second Amendment rights.” As I recall there’s more where that came from.

    And good for you on calling out the West’s, not just America’s “banditry and piracy.” Our ruling trash is not thinking through the implications of formally ending everything from property rights to the wisdom of playing the game of having foreign currency reserves.

    I wish I could say the supply chain issues outlined would have much effect, but look at how after WWI it took many decades for world trade to return to its previous levels, as I vaguely recall maybe not until the 1960s. There’s no limits to the willingness of our current ruling trash to make us suffer in the service of their tastes and projects like the Ukraine which was subjected to two color revolutions. Although it’s partly personal, we know of the Biden family’s financial ties to that very corrupt regime, who knows how many other countries have similar ones?

  • UPDATE: Response for Progressive Prosecutor Beth McCann's office posted below. SAY HIS NAME: LEE KELTNER (photo courtesy of Suzan Keltner) Self-described "Progressive Prosecutor" Beth McCann, the district attorney of Denver, campaigned on a promise to "keep our city safe and provide equal justice for all," "to rebuild trust" and "to keep open lines of communication."...
  • @Biff
    I grew up north of Denver, and my only question is how can such a beautiful place as Colorado get so fucked up in such a hurry?

    Replies: @Not Chicken Little, @That Would Be Telling

    The Blueprint: How the Democrats Won Colorado (and Why Republicans Everywhere Should Care) from 2010 is supposed to explain it. Don’t know if it covers the huge amounts of outside money that’s played a roal, Bloomberg for gun control, with less than complete success but no long term costs, you’d also want to check to see if Soros installed the Secretary of State (runs elections) and of course this DA.

    Not that any of us think this will matter in the foreseeable future, but Federal laws against “violating the civil rights” of someone where that results in death have no statute of limitations.

  • For background, the sudden appearance of this virus - at first apparently epidemic, then apparently pandemic, aroused my suspicions from the first day. Responding to those suspicions, I followed and documented all the developments from Day One. First, I recorded the dates on which each country announced its first domestic (indigenous) infection, those not transferred...
  • First, I recorded the dates on which each country announced its first domestic (indigenous) infection, those not transferred by travel to or from China, not arising from external contact. These were local infections which had no connection to Chinese nor to foreign travel; thus, by definition, they originated inside the country.

    Are you for real?

    Living in a world where countries have impervious borders if they so wish, being able to control all air, land and sea travel? Even North Korea can’t pull that off. Talking about a disease transmitted by breathing etc., and that’s frequently infectious a bit before symptoms start to become really noticeable? Ever studied the spread of the 1918-19 “Spanish Flu?” and its multiple waves. Note with COVID we’ve had three waves of increasingly transmissible variants, which I noticed but with much less rigor than you resulted in countries with previously successful isolation measures to fail.

    One reason you can’t prove your theory (that’s not really a thing except here by confession from those you assume are deliberately spreading it, but you might be able to adduce enough evidence to make a case for it) is that you’re starting with data that’s too low quality to support it.

    • Replies: @TheTrumanShow
    @That Would Be Telling

    Not you, again!

  • TACTICS, STRATEGY AND OPERATIONS So far the Russian military operation in Ukraine has been a reconnaissance in force preceded by the destruction of the supplies and headquarters of the Ukrainian Armed Forces by standoff weapons. The object being to suss out where the Ukrainian forces are, to surround them, to check existing Russian intelligence against...
  • @Anonymous
    @Wizard of Oz

    https://www.unz.com/article/russia-ukraine-2-the-world-order-has-changed/#comment-5214181

    Wizard


    And I suppose it explains why Ron hasn’t included reference to that history in support of his belief that LBJ at least had guilty knowledge.
     
    Sorry about the delay in answering. It took a couple of days for me to think through the implications of your post. You made a very good point, probably better than you expected it to be. Here's why:

    The 1960s, starting in 1961, marked a sharp break in the policy and society of the United States. JFK and RFK were the last of the classic Irish politicians who had dominated Northeastern and Midwestern urban areas since the Gilded Age. They marked the end of the post-Civil War Southeastern establishment. They also marked the start of the Democratic Party's invasion of the West Coast and its conversion to the present radical model.

    JFK and his brother, RFK, were Democratic Internationalists. They were faced with a government establishment that had (under the Republicans) lost the Korean War, was unable to counter organized crime (the public actually believed that there was no such thing after WW II, and to this day the American public doesn't acknowledge Jewish participation in organized crime), had increasing foreign recovery from WW II causing economically failing cities and sclerotic large corporations. It also had an Army that was only marginally able to fight and had been dismissed as obsolete in a MAD age.

    Furthermore, the Angl0-Saxon fortunes of the Gilded Age had been almost entirely stripped away from them (as had the fortunes of the rich in all WW II combatants), and the disappearance of prominent public commentators that Ron Unz has documented demonstrated a control over mass communications and public opinions that left the remaining rich holding on and not making waves. There was no effective resistance to the New Deal, and the US was, behind the public relations screen, failing economically.

    JFK and RFK tried to reform most of these failures. And they ended up dead, both assassinated (by parties still unknown, although possibly identified in documents still classified). Their deaths marked the end of Irish, and indeed White, attempts at reform of the US Government, and the firm establishment of Trump's Swamp.

    JFK was far from perfect. He established NASA as what amounted to a publicity stunt, and is directly responsible for its continuation as Hollywood. While NASA's accomplishments were real in the sense that they actually happened -- US citizens went to the Earth's moon and returned for example, but the trip was never intended to produce economic benefits, it was only supposed to upstage the USSR. The propaganda about a new industrial frontier was just showmanship, and indeed the US prevented AT&T from setting up a satellite network after Telstar showed that this was possible.
    The US after WW II was horrified to find that its WW II victory had left it open to central war using nuclear weapons. The New Deal apparently decided to put the US into technological stasis, and did so.

    Further, the 1960s saw serious attempts to degrade the capabilities of the US population. This reference shows the process, but not who executed it ( https://www.rooshv.com/soviet-defector-yuri-bezmenov-accurately-predicted-how-america-would-decline )

    JFK's successors were worse than JKF in that they made no actual attempt to establish or even protect a viable US, socially or politically. Republican, Democrat, all the same. Media campaigns about making the US competitive or "more just", at the same time that industrial labs were "spinning off" concepts of companies worth billions later, but were rejected as impractical by the sponsors of the industrial laboratories. Eventually, the embarrassment grew too great and the companies (with most research) were shut down. Eventually, we got Fauci using science as a chimpanzee might use a gold watch as a flail to smite his enemies.

    In any case, right after JFK and RFK departed this mortal coil, we got LBJ, who made radical changes in basic US law that left the 90 odd percent of the US population (the Whites under the new laws) suspect in all dealings with non-Whites and with the government in general. This effort culminated recently in the "Deplorables" comments, in the "Insurrection" push, and in the attempt by public schools to destroy "Whiteness". All of these efforts are authorized by legislation passed under LBJ, usually with Republican endorsement.

    At the same time, the US mass media started praising recreational drug use, which had hitherto been enough to banish its users from both polite and impolite society. Recreational drug use became a high status attempt to "see beyond conventional reality" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary ). Engineering education (now "STEM" education, "STEM" being a synonym for "magic") was condemned outright, and manufacturing became the refuge of (to be blunt, and I've worked a lot in that field) a refuge for IQ 110 and "I hate education" conformists. The US could have been like Singapore, which is an urban area that adapted to change and became viable while the US was declining, but it did not.

    The US culture of accomplishment was, in a word, destroyed, along with the family (by Feminism. the "Playboy Mansion"***), US fertility and the international currency that had supported business prior to WW I.

    Further, the US population was demilitarized. As with the Futurists, the national flag was treated with much less than reverence in a way that made it clear that US legitimacy was being questioned, soldiers were spit upon and that was publicized. For a fairly long time, soldiers returning from a combat tour in Vietnam were routinely doused with piss at the Honolulu airport, and the local government refused to stop that because this assault was "free speech". BTW, that's where the "thank you for your service" bit came from -- the US population didn't like the spitting and piss (or the symbolic denial of US legitimacy), and that in part got Nixon elected, thus the spitting and piss tactic was dropped.

    So what?

    So -- this is obviously a very large change, yet it has been buried. You apparently didn't know about it, I did because I lived in the center of it, but very few others do.
    The change is attributed in mass literature to "red diaper babies", almost entirely Jewish, and they certainly lead the charge on the ground. They made up the celebrities in the Be-ins (Ginsberg being the leader there), provided the crunchies for the Weather Underground’s pipe bomb effort (https://www.influencewatch.org/organization/weather-underground-weatherman-weathermen/) .
    However, it is extremely unlikely that Jewish organizations pulled this off all on their own in the face of the very active FBI and CIA of the times. It is also unlikely that the USSR provided the preponderance of support for the effort. Liberals of the time supported the change, but, again, they were supporting a change that was clearly destructive to themselves, and thus was probably not their idea. Thus, the conventional explanation is dubious at best. One could rephrase the conventional explanation as "The Jews did it! Why say more, why say how, why ask why nobody stopped it?". Jews as fall guys, again, portrayed as the sole malefactors, just as they were in Imperial Spain while the Inquisition destroyed/killed all groups in opposition to Crown policies. The obvious is the truth, and all of the truth, so go away and be quiet.

    There was an assault that drove Pres. Trump's Secret Service to move him to a sheltered area in the White House (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/secret-service-took-trump-to-underground-bunker-amid-george-floyd-protests), which resulted in criticism of Trump (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-denies-ordering-protesters-forcibly-removed-church-photo/story?id=71042680). Contrast that to the 1/6 affair. The 1960s agitation got the treatment the assault on Trump did, the 1/6 affair shows what could have been done.

    Why isn't this a subject of inquiry? Ron Unz has "American Pravda", but it does not touch upon the 1960s transformation. Nobody else does either, except in tones of deepest reverence. Talk about "intellectual time bombs", knowing what happened back then is analogous to a nuclear time bomb.

    Q: Why is this?

    A: Crickets.

    *** Playboy Mansion, supposedly the site of hedonistic yet judicious philosopher who had discovered that sex is not bad, turns out to have been a site of horror and "criminal sexual assault". This was revealed in 1985, nothing was done, and then revealed again recently: https://okmagazine.com/photos/secrets-scandals-hugh-hefner-playboy/

    https://www.thedoctorstv.com/articles/growing-up-in-the-playboy-mansion-led-to-womans-addiction-and-intimacy-struggles
    Nobody looks at that realistically either -- No "how did this happen, in detail!", more the "I've found who the devil is. It is White men! Destroy them and the world will be perfect!"

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Wizard of Oz

    I think some of the problem you believe you are seeing in for example Unz.com coverage of the 1960s is that they were the climax of a very long process, something you in part acknowledge in a variety of places, like the ultimately ineffective resistance to the New Deal or “the disappearance of prominent public commentators” that Mr. Unz mostly recently discussed here.

    Perhaps view the 1960s as a coup, or better a long in process revolution that decisively won in in that period and a bit into the 1970s? 1917 was hardly the beginning of the Bolshevik revolution.

    One reason I say this is your comment on “serious attempts to degrade the capabilities of the US population.” High on the lists of important “general purpose technologies” is writing. The movement to stop effectively teaching reading to the large fraction of US students who required formal teaching of phonics was in the works for a while but you could date its real start in 1930 with the publication of the first Dick and Jane and Their Running Dog Spot book. The most famous book calling this out was the 1955 Why Johnny Can’t Read and that fight is still going on.

    So my point is that I don’t know anyone who lived through the 1960s like my Silent Generation parents who didn’t believe a revolution of sorts happened then, that’s just not controversial to anyone who reads practically any history of the period, the Left of course saying it was a good thing, the Right not so much. And thus a focus by Mr. Unz and many of his commentators is on the roots of this, or its status today and how to fight it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    @That Would Be Telling


    I think some of the problem you believe you are seeing in for example Unz.com coverage of the 1960s is that they were the climax of a very long process, something you in part acknowledge in a variety of places,
     
    Good point. Some processes go on for so long that they are almost invisible. Way back when, AD 1000 Century or so, the Medieval Climatic Optimum reached its peak and started to decline, a decline that continued until about AD 1600.
    Just about every civilization on Earth was stressed during this 600 years of falling temperatures, and just about every society except the West reacted by banning experimentation and relying strictly on well established cultural forms.
    https://andymaypetrophysicist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/central_greenland_temperature_since-4000bp.pdf

    The West was an exception, it permitted some change and re-made itself several times from AD 1000 to 1600. Now, ordinarily this would have made little difference outside of the West. The the intellectual achievements of previous civilizations were in part rules of thumb for agriculture (astronomy/astrology) and in part ornaments (plane geometry), and did little to alter the balance of power between civilizations.
    The West, though, managed to invent the scientific method and the rule of law / military discipline. This enabled the Western Breakout of about AD 1500, and loosed on the planet a civilization that collapsed civilizations on the other side of he planet with little more than sailing ships, cannon, superior organization, and expeditionary forces. Worse, it did so as a side show to events in Europe.
    From the first, there was sizable opposition to the Western novelties, both inside and outside the West. Horrible wars were fought within Christendom and between Christendom and other civilizations. The effect of these wars was yet more novelty, but also yet more opposition. 1849 revolutions are a recent example of this; Western European single competitive cash based economies pushed many groups out into poverty in Eastern Europe, but couldn't be stopped. Result was intense strife between various ethnic groups, strife that culminated in various genocides during WW I.
    The 1960s seem to be yet another example of that. During the 1960s, however, novelty did not prevail. The US turned to its Empire, forgot about science and engineering except as showbiz, abolished the industrial R&D laboratories whose output it was ignoring anyway, and started the slow decline into nonfunctional equity that we are seeing today. Today we have computer based: high school "slam books" (books of written insults), an automated Sears Roebuck catalog, highly censored information sources (Wikipedia, Facebook, mass media news), and colleges that don't teach very much.

    So, a long process indeed. I think it would be as interesting to find out just what happened in the 1960s as it has been to learn more about the causes and start of of WW II. The 1960s, were, as you say, effectively a coup, and I'm pretty sure that the parties that sponsored the coup are still around and still active (although with leadership that is getting very old). The basic question, "Do we keep Western novelties that help understand and use nature, or do we discard them?" is both old and important. I'd like to know who is answering it, and what their answers are.

    Some are well known: Islam's answer is "discard". BLM's answer is also "discard". Further, the ESG (Environment, Social, Governance) says "discard". How is it that even Western social groups are so anxious to discard? Study of the origins, the "coup" you mention, when things actually changed, might give some useful answers.
  • @Dave Bowman
    @RadicalCenter

    I think you're being a little naive. Here in the UK, RT has gone. That means, GONE. It has been REMOVED by the powers-that-be - we are no longer permitted to access it. No public debate. No government vote. Just silence - and full censorship. Want the proof ? I just tried RT.com here in the UK - see below.


    403 - Forbidden . That’s an error.

    Client does not have access rights to the content so server is rejecting to give proper response. That’s all we know
     
    I don't even recognise the wording as any common, legitimate 403 message, so it's brand-new and typed in a hurry.

    The Soviet Union just called. It wants it's copyright on civilian repression back.

    Replies: @Wielgus, @That Would Be Telling

    That 403 message you’re seeing from RT.com in the U.K. with the strange English wording is the sort I often see here in the US, and just now got exactly it (“403 Forbidden” in bold, “That’s an error” and “That’s all we know” in grey) trying with stock Google Chrome and Firefox for a bit, Brave which is what I normally use didn’t get that, but then both of the former started working at slightly different times, current top headline is “US hints at what would happen were Zelensky to be killed.” And I can still get their English broadcast through YouTube through their red “Live” button, although I’ve not tried listening to it for more than a few seconds, don’t prefer to get my information through video or audio.

    So you may have to be persistent, may have to wait until a different time in the day as I’ve had to do many times, it sure looks like something that’s part of or behind the non-Cloudflare CDN they’re using. Could be they’re just getting too much traffic for the obvious reasons, plus we can be certain the site is getting attacked.

  • @SS-The Independent
    @Amalekite

    " It's the economy, stupid " - Bill the saxofhonist...Not exactly, because it's the Ponzi scheme named Federal Reserve ( 2 words, 2 lies: it's private and fractional, with no reserves ). The debt/usury is at its peak, and there is no money in Social Security, medicare, medicaid. I live in USA since summer '95...This Country is finished. Prof. Michael Hudson was/is right in his book cu the same name...the parasite killed the host ( like they did every single time for the last 2 millennia ). What most ignorant and arrogant gringos don't understand, is how the financial scheme ' works '...It was Henry Ford who said in substance this: 'It is perhaps well enough that the people of the nation do not know or understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning'. What you are saying is just wishful thinking ( assuming you are not a troll ).

    Replies: @Towey, @Dacian, @Amalekite

    I’m talking more in short term great power politics terms. As I said in my comment, I know (as clearly do you) the overall trajectory is catastrophic in the West, and I also agree with Michael Hudson. I suppose the million dollar question is what happens to the American Empire once America is wrecked. The obvious answer is that it will decline along with it, but due to the increasingly global and abstract forms power seems to take I personally find it hard to say. I don’t even know to what extent the American Empire can even be thought of as based in a nation state. Sorry for the tangent, and sorry if I’m not making myself clear here. Like you could say, for instance, that Covid was a disaster for America. But Covid was not a disaster for BlackRock and Amazon. Nominally those entities are part of something called “America” or “The West,” yet their interests and outcomes don’t seem tied to it. I’m continually amazed at the adaptability of the neoliberal system to persevere, when it’s been a house of cards for decades. Anyway, I’m rambling, but I’m skeptical of declaring how “The American Empire is finished!” and toasting BRICS supremacy, when I see no tangible reason for doing so. The crises that dragged the USSR into Eastern

    [MORE]
    Europe and Afghanistan were not exactly wins for the Soviets, so it’s hard to see how it’s a win for a much smaller weaker Russia.

  • Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    @Anonymous

    You refer to the "Jewish press" howling for LBJ's scalp and accusing him of killing JFK. Would you please elaborate and, specifically, point me to credible sources for that? As Ron Unz thinks Johnson was implicated in theJFK murder I would have expected him to refer to any such sources but I don't recall him found so.

    Replies: @Anonymous

    Wizard

    My apologies for not including sources in my post.

    I was alive back when LBJ was president, lived in NY State, much of the time in Westchester County, and so have some memories of what happened.

    [MORE]

    Here’s a reference to the most famous media offensive against LBJ: https://lbjthemasterofdeceit.com/2020/04/26/macbird-redux-what-1967-was-really-like/
    This reference is still carrying on the anti-LBJ crusade, and so it gives some flavor to how McBird was used in the media. At the time, Broadway was as much a Jewish affair as was Hollywood, and you may have noticed that the 1960s Counter-culture was largely a Jewish affair. This was the time of the Fugs:

    and “Where the Hell did all the damned flowers go?”

    and the Be-in, and Civil Rights coupled with raw hatred of the US Southeast.

    Simultaneously, there were world wide counter-cultural events, perhaps most notably in China (Mao’s little red book, also sold in Greenwich Village, although I’ve lost my copy), France, and England.

    For those interested, the themes were right out of 1910 Italian Futurism. “There is an easy way to remake society into something much better, and if you will just give us unlimited power we will use those easy ways. We’re much better than a President who killed his predecessor, fights vicious wars for no reason, and is going to get your kids in college killed.”

    This was coupled with a media offensive that highly favored use of recreational drugs.

    This media offensive was very effective. LBJ (an aggressive and manipulative short sighted fool if there ever was one, who set up the basic laws demonized Whites as the only suspect group in America) was blamed by the Press for continuing the Vietnam War, and withdrew from politics.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/03/31/a-pearl-harbor-in-politics-lbjs-stunning-decision-not-to-seek-reelection/
    and the aftermath
    https://www.history.com/news/lbj-exit-1968-presidential-race

    As you may remember, the Left then destroyed the Nixon Presidency by as similar media offensive, culminated by catching the Watergate break-in, one of the political espionage efforts that were actually common on all sides during that time. (Victor,\ Lasky, _It Didn’t Start With Watergate_, 1977, ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 0803738579
    ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-0803738577)

    Now, obviously these things were not followed by a brief public service notice saying “Sponsored by the Jewish Establishment”, but (a) it fits the template of Jewish operations that we’ve all come to know and . . . know, and (b) I was in NYC in the 1960s, had some good and fairly connected Jewish friends, spent a Summer in the East Village, and the friends were all strongly in favor of the media offensive, and strongly opposed to LBJ. They regarded JFK’s death in Dallas (or “city of hate” as the media then described it) as proof that all Texans, LBJ included, were enemies. In short, they acted like low level participants in the media offensive.

    For what it’s worth, the Northeast Establishment in the 1960s had just become economically and politically obsolete; it was never recapitalized after WW II, and had lost political control to the big city political machines. It still hated the Southeast, and (not understanding the Western intellectual heritage except as an ornament**) had no defense against attacks from the Left. The Southeast was still Democratic back then, and also had no defense. The rest of the US either didn’t matter or was an urban and strongly Jewish influenced colony (West Coast cities in particular). Blame can be spread far beyond the Jewish establishment, which was successful against almost no effective resistance. Other groups had simply given up their responsibility for governance and were content with the money that government offices gave them.

    For those interested, the Counterculture of the 1960s was a simple repetition of the down fall of the Weimar Republic, with an eerie repetition of the mass rally’s (“Be-ins” in the 1960s), emphasis on organic foods, emphasis on “movements”, emphasis on “activists” (Weathermen in the 1960s), and general BS as the Nazis used to bring down Weimar. Apparently whatever group was behind it (and it was definitely a coordinated effort) had simply copied the Nazis. See: Bloom, Closing of the American Mind
    for more on that thesis.

    Also for those interested, the present Democratic effort is also a lot like the downfall of the Weimar Republic, except this time the coordinators are acting more like the Communist side did — street fighters, media campaigns, introduction of new ethnic groups, exacerbation of military problems (Weimar was faced with Communist insurrection to its East, with little more than volunteer troops to keep it out of Weimar territory), and an invincible sense of self-righteousness and lack of any morals, coupled with unflinching stupidity and destructiveness.

    So those are the references I can bring up on short notice. Hope that helps, and it should give you a feel for the 1960s. The 1970s onward were a time of consolidation, leading to the present situation (2022).

    **
    “You never cared for secrets I’d confide.
    To you, I’m just an ornament, something for your pride.
    Always running, never caring, that’s the life you live.
    Stolen minutes of your time was all you had to give.”
    Simon & Garfunkel authors, Red Rubber Ball, 1966. Those lines more or less (perhaps inadvertently) are (IMHO) a fair description of the Eastern Establishment’s attitude toward the Western body of knowledge which is metaphorically singing the song. The “secrets” are the liberal arts education the establishment had back then.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    @Anonymous

    Thank you very much. Very interesting. And I suppose it explains why Ron hasn't included reference to that history in support of his belief that LBJ at least had guilty knowledge.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  • @Almost Missouri
    @Skeptikal


    Of course the sanctions also cut out a lot of trade. But maybe Russia is big enough and has enough trading partners so that enough trade is maintained for a healthy economy
     
    What Western, especially American, observers forget is that almost everything is actually manufactured in China now, and China is still happily trading with Russia, so Russians won't have to forego much because of trade sanctions. Maybe instead of iPhones Russians will buy cPhones (Chinese rebranded iPhones made with the IP that Chinese manufacturers have already swiped from Apple—not that they need it: 98% of iPhone components were already Chinese-made).

    There might be brief stock-outs at Mercedes dealers in Moscow, but if Germans want to heat their homes next winter, they will be cheerfully selling cars, capital equipment, components, and whatever else to Russia by September.

    The only things the US still manufactures are weapons, and they weren't selling those to Russia anyway, so that's no loss to Russia. The US also sells energy and food, but guess what Russia already has a plenty of and doesn't need to import: energy and food.

    The UK exports nothing significant other than ghey financial services, which Russian oligarchs probably consumed for tax avoidance purposes, but the Russian state is happy to see those cut off.

    France, Italy, Germany, Scandinavia and the other continental powers will quietly make their own accommodations with Russia and the "New Reality", which is actually the old reality: energy matters and whoever has it calls the tune. The US used to have plenty of energy too, but the dumbass Washington geniuses shut down the pipelines, forbade drilling, smothered fracking, and called to "bankrupt coal". How's that working out for your New World Order, Davos big-brains?

    All in all, Russia has little to fear from trade sanctions, but much to fear from Globohomo infection. So from the Russian point of view it is hard to see the downside to all this.

    don’t these sanctions kind of help along the List theory
     
    I don't know what "List theory" is.

    Replies: @Intelligent Dasein, @That Would Be Telling, @Philip Owen

    A whole lot of what you say about who manufacture’s what is dangerously wrong. The PRC doesn’t manufacture the CPUs and displays of iPhones (very few, like only one or two companies in the world can do this for the high end), and I doubt the memory, DRAM and Flash, which contrary to your amazing claims about what we can manufacture (make military stuff with what, pray tell? Never heard of SpaceX ???) we still have a toehold in due to Micron. Despite the best efforts of our ruling trash, we still manufacture a whole lot of non-military and non-food stuff. The PRC is also losing business as “the world’s workshop” for cheaper places as it and its people have climbed up the value chain and wealth levels, the big limitation there as far as I can tell is finite trained human capital in places like Vietnam.

    The PRC certainly could and maybe does make completely indigenous smartphones using Android (iOS would be too messy even with successful espionage), they wouldn’t be power drain competitive in normal markets but would suffice for embargoed ones like Russia. For that matter, Russia is the country that to my limited knowledge has only has military, food, and fuel plus VVER reasonably safe pressurized water nuclear reactors to offer the PRC (four in operation, four planned, appears to be a competitive design in that market). But maybe there’s other things they can or do supply that I’m not familiar with, but a gangster government makes every big company political one way or another.

    but if Germans want to heat their homes next winter, they will be cheerfully selling cars, capital equipment, components, and whatever else to Russia by September.

    Are you really so sure the German ruling trash, especially their current “traffic light,” with green for the Greens coalition government is going to be doing that, let along “cheerfully?” I’d guess it depends on how much of their industry they want to preserve, I don’t think they care about their people at all.

    On the other hand, you’ve grossly overstated what “dumbass Washington geniuses” have been able to accomplish vs. talk and boast about in shutting down our fossil fuel production and transportation. They’re much better in stopping new things like the Keystone XL pipeline than for example that 50 year old pipeline from Canada which supplies 25% of Michigan’s propane and from refineries in Indiana makes the jet fuel used by Detroit’s airport.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  • From PNAS: The rise and fall of rationality in language Marten Scheffer, Ingrid van de Leemput, Els Weinans, and Johan Bollen PNAS December 21, 2021 118 The post-truth era has taken many by surprise. Here, we use massive language analysis to demonstrate that the rise of fact-free argumentation may perhaps be understood as part of...
  • @res
    @That Would Be Telling


    Like the US Navy and carrier landings, MIT has a competence floor of having to do a semester of math past the BC AP Calculus sequence, and one each of calculus based classical mechanics and E&M and optics etc.
     
    Jack D's daughter went to MIT and he has made a number of comments about how they offer "more accessible" (or something like that) versions of the required physics classes. No idea how the verbiage surrounding them matches the reality, but probably the biggest "benefit" is not having the smarter people in your year (the smartest test through them or take harder core versions) wrecking the curve. Plus, it's pass fail anyway.

    For example, this comment.
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/are-campus-leftists-getting-dumber/#comment-1858650
    Referencing this page.
    http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m8a.html

    The best part is the special version of 8.01 (first semester freshman mechanics) which is 8.01L shows up as simply 8.01 on the transcript.

    Though looking again, I don't see an easier equivalent for 8.02 (E&M) so there is that.

    I also don't see easier version of 18.01 and 18.02 (calculus) so maybe things aren't as bad now as I thought.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @nebulafox

    FWIW, way back when, I found Caltech’s intro math and physics courses to be considerably more difficult. It’s expected that everybody, regardless of major, go through that, and the stuff they do in Math 1a would be baby real analysis elsewhere.

    So I suspect, though cannot confirm, that MIT has a more relatively diverse student body in terms of background.

    • Thanks: res
    • Replies: @res
    @nebulafox

    That sounds right to me. My sense is even Caltech is starting to reduce their standards recently though. Would be interested in hearing more from someone with more direct experience of that over time.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  • @Henry Canaday
    When I started high school debating in 1961, the national debate topic was, you guessed it, federal aid to education. I looked up the history of high school debate topics some years ago, and it seemed that half the time the national topic was something to do with Federal aid to education.

    Maybe that was an exaggerated impression, but I wondered, how often, if ever, was the debate topic a conservative, rather than a liberal proposal? Long before teachers tried to foist Crackpot Race Theory on students, they were relentlessly promoting one version or another of the more respectable liberal themes.

    One more issue on which Ricard Nixon was right in his 1960 debate with Kennedy: if the Federal government starts aiding local schools, it will start controlling them.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Abolish_public_education, @Justvisiting, @Hibernian

    During the early 50’s, possibly during the Korean War when we were in a Hot War with China, the national collegiate debate topic was admission of Red China to the UN. The Naval Academy wouldn’t participate because everybody had to debate both sides of the question, or at least be prepared to. If this was not during the War, it was in a short space of time before it, right after Chiang’s collapse, or else immediately after it.

    This was a clear case of tone deafness or else in your face contempt for the vast majority of Americans. (No, we’re not militaristic robots, but we’re not, with the obvious exception of our elites, apologists for totalitarianism.)

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  • @res
    @That Would Be Telling


    Like the US Navy and carrier landings, MIT has a competence floor of having to do a semester of math past the BC AP Calculus sequence, and one each of calculus based classical mechanics and E&M and optics etc.
     
    Jack D's daughter went to MIT and he has made a number of comments about how they offer "more accessible" (or something like that) versions of the required physics classes. No idea how the verbiage surrounding them matches the reality, but probably the biggest "benefit" is not having the smarter people in your year (the smartest test through them or take harder core versions) wrecking the curve. Plus, it's pass fail anyway.

    For example, this comment.
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/are-campus-leftists-getting-dumber/#comment-1858650
    Referencing this page.
    http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m8a.html

    The best part is the special version of 8.01 (first semester freshman mechanics) which is 8.01L shows up as simply 8.01 on the transcript.

    Though looking again, I don't see an easier equivalent for 8.02 (E&M) so there is that.

    I also don't see easier version of 18.01 and 18.02 (calculus) so maybe things aren't as bad now as I thought.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @nebulafox

    probably the biggest “benefit” [to the “‘more accessible’ (or something like that) versions of the [first] required physics” class] is not having the smarter people in your year (the smartest test through them or take harder core versions) wrecking the curve.

    MIT absolutely does not grade on the curve for it would be completely unfair when everyone is expected to do adequately or better at the MIT level. People who chose a suitable major will get As and Bs if they demonstrate mastery, anything less signals trouble (sometimes with the professor) although one of my best professors said he didn’t know anyone good in his field who hadn’t bombed one undergraduate course in their major.

    I sense the 8.01L version of classical mechanics is about one of the harder problems for many MIT students and one of the reasons the first term is graded Pass (A-C)/No Record: almost all of us were used to not having to work very hard to get straight As in high school. MIT teaches at high levels, like no algebra based physics (which is a cargo cult subject anyway) and at a deliberately fast pace, a lot if not most students have to work harder than they ever had to and almost all of us had to learn at a faster pace than we’d ever had to.

    So one way or another there’s a period of adjustment, and the first term physics course is the first one where you have to learn to apply math to real world problems with the usual “assume a spherical cow” simplifications. And I strongly suspect taking algebra based high school physics requires unlearning it when you do it for real using calculus.

    I base that on theory because I can emphasize the above “not having to work hard” by relating how my high school senior year math and physics subjects had no tests or homework, the teachers, the math was one lazy and outright refused to do any teach or grading, the other for physics I’m not sure of the why for no homework or tests but he did give us useful lectures every day. Four of my six courses were like this, in one the teacher didn’t even bother to show up (really), and anything like AP or honors courses had been punted as “discriminatory.”

    I’d done a fair amount of hard intellectual work outside the school system, biology is so vast you can always learn more stuff, and the first three years of high school math were at a good pace or for one self-study with another STEM career student so I came to MIT expecting to have to work hard. And saw some other students generally struggling, and struggled myself to master some of the topics in calculus. (Compared to most other MIT students I was in a cohort that was relatively weak in math, we could aspire to majors in for example chemistry or materials science and engineering, but not physics or chemical engineering).

    • Thanks: res
    • Replies: @res
    @That Would Be Telling


    MIT absolutely does not grade on the curve
     
    I guess things have changed. I checked and grading on a curve is currently verboten at MIT (though the link indicates it still happens).
    https://facultygovernance.mit.edu/septemberoctober-2019-danheiser
    The discussion about grading on a curve is actually pretty good.

    Thanks for the update. Do they still publish means and SDs for test results?

    You give a good description of the adjustment process and its issues. Thanks. I can understand how that would be even worse for someone with a worse background (e.g. no STEM friends). Which makes me a bit more sympathetic about 8.01L. But recording it as 8.01 on the transcript really yanks my chain for some reason. I guess it just seems dishonest to me--even if I understand why they do it.

    P.S. With grading on the curve I refer to using means and SDs to set the cutoffs. What the cutoffs actually are and mean is discretionary. So if you want to make the cutoff for the bottom of the Bs -2 SD in a class of 40 (i.e. no C's unless you have an outlier) have at it. It's pretty hard to set a grading policy for difficult tests without curving. How do they handle tests with class averages in the 20s (out of 100)? Or does that not happen anymore?

    Replies: @res

    , @Abolish_public_education
    @That Would Be Telling

    weak in math, we could aspire to majors in for example chemistry or materials science and engineering, but not physics or chemical engineering

    Physical chemistry would challenge someone weak in math. Chemical engineering would challenge someone weak in how to join copper pipes.

    , @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    I think that you are fudging several different things together. Yes some of the high level courses in some of the majors (aka Courses) at MIT are going to be very challenging, but this has nothing to do with freshman physics. Aside from the AA admits and the rare humanities majors, everyone else at MIT has the demonstrated intellectual ability to master 8.01 or they wouldn't have been admitted in the 1st place.

    What they may not have is the PSYCHOLOGICAL ability to handle the pressure, especially being away from home for the first time and with the realization that while you may have been the smartest person in your high school you are nothing special at MIT, maybe even below average.

    This is seen in any high level activity - if you are a pro-athlete or a classical musician or whatever, the psychological challenge is more important than the technical challenge because the talent is a given - if you didn't have talent you wouldn't be there to begin with. I just heard an interview with Morten Andersen, who was a place kicker in the NFL for 25 seasons and holds all sorts of records. He said that there were dozens of people who had the ability to kick a ball in practices but very few who could stand up under the pressure of game conditions. He did all sorts of visualization exercises and so on in advance, so that when he went onto the field he was as cool as a cucumber even if he had to kick the critical game winning/losing field goal. He had already kicked the ball in his mind dozens of times the night before under the exact same conditions so that doing it one more time on the field was just one more kick, nothing special.

    My daughter's freshman roommate was an example - she came fully prepared intellectually but not psychologically. On paper she had won all these math awards and was super qualified. But she had had a shielded Christian upbringing and the social scene at MIT just overwhelmed her, so she just fell apart mentally.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  • @nebulafox
    @res

    They do, and if you can handle it, that environment further entrenches your intelligence and grit. Doing grad school in physics at a place like MIT or Caltech is the equivalent of Navy SEAL training for your brain. But the distinction is there, and it is visible.

    >Though I will note I don’t think the admissions office is doing any favors if they admit someone who is only marginally qualified.

    It's also not just about intelligence. You don't want someone who will crack under the pressure. That, and if you are dealing with an applicant pool where the majority of applicants are already in the top percentiles in terms of test scores, you need to find a way to distinguish between them anyhow.

    (This dynamic fuels some of the nastiest part of college admissions, including de facto racial hierarchies and extracurricular laundry lists that tend to favor families with the means and knowledge to obtain them. But that said, I can understand why elite universities search for people who stand out and take initiative, even that early on.

    Trouble is, these days, it ain't kids taking initiative and subjecting themselves to proto-agoge, it's kids preparing for the meritocratic rat race.)

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    >Though I will note I don’t think the admissions office is doing any favors if they admit someone who is only marginally qualified.

    It’s also not just about intelligence. You don’t want someone who will crack under the pressure. That, and if you are dealing with an applicant pool where the majority of applicants are already in the top percentiles in terms of test scores, you need to find a way to distinguish between them anyhow.

    Note, most of this data is from the 1980s, and as res noted the recentering of the SATs largely ruined them for admittance purposes. By sometime in the 00s ACT scores were a better prediction of good outcomes.

    Like the US Navy and carrier landings, MIT has a competence floor of having to do a semester of math past the BC AP Calculus sequence, and one each of calculus based classical mechanics and E&M and optics etc. They don’t accept anyone who they don’t believe can do the work, and in the last 2-3 decades when it became much more nationally famous and popular if you made that cut the raw odds of acceptance were around one out of three.

    As for AA every black I’ve met who went there belonged there. Of course there’s intense self-selection in even seriously considering going to MIT, especially for blacks as it’s not as likely a path to wealth and power like other schools they can get into if they can get into MIT. Cliche or not black nerds exist and MIT gets a fair number of them.

    MIT definitely has problems with people cracking under the pressure. One thing they really like to see that’s probably related to that is evidence applicants can do projects. Class ranking in high school also has good predictive power.

    And while I don’t think they look for it, there’s a massive bias in those who accept admittance offers of only children and first-borne. Another thing that weeds out people one way or another is coming from intact families.

    • Replies: @res
    @That Would Be Telling


    Like the US Navy and carrier landings, MIT has a competence floor of having to do a semester of math past the BC AP Calculus sequence, and one each of calculus based classical mechanics and E&M and optics etc.
     
    Jack D's daughter went to MIT and he has made a number of comments about how they offer "more accessible" (or something like that) versions of the required physics classes. No idea how the verbiage surrounding them matches the reality, but probably the biggest "benefit" is not having the smarter people in your year (the smartest test through them or take harder core versions) wrecking the curve. Plus, it's pass fail anyway.

    For example, this comment.
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/are-campus-leftists-getting-dumber/#comment-1858650
    Referencing this page.
    http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m8a.html

    The best part is the special version of 8.01 (first semester freshman mechanics) which is 8.01L shows up as simply 8.01 on the transcript.

    Though looking again, I don't see an easier equivalent for 8.02 (E&M) so there is that.

    I also don't see easier version of 18.01 and 18.02 (calculus) so maybe things aren't as bad now as I thought.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @nebulafox

  • @That Would Be Telling
    @David Davenport


    Two people with sub-120 IQs are in charge at the only nuclear weapons factory in America.

    What is your factual evidence for that assertion?
     
    The Anonymous Coward did not cite any and I'm pretty sure doesn't have any. Getting into MIT means you've got an IQ of say 145 at minimum, but the logical error of saying "graduates of fourth-tier schools" axiomatically means sub-120 IQ is, well, this AC didn't attend MIT I'm pretty sure.

    If AC was a bit more savvy, he'd know a lot of people have to attend "fourth-tier schools" because they're cheap and they don't qualify for serious financial assistance. Some can be very good, enough to prepare people for first rank MIT graduate programs. In part because they tend to have no pretenses about existing to do anything but teach, and they also avoid the pathologies of second to third tier schools that are envious of the first tier. Although all but the first tier have tendencies to cargo cult things.

    Replies: @anonymous, @res

    You are overly emotional with your name calling.

    A fourth tier school has worse students than a third tier school. Bright kids go to third tier schools (the main state U) to get a cheap and decent education. Dumb kids graduate from fourth tier schools.

    • Replies: @res
    @anonymous

    Have to love how quick TWBT is with the troll flag (so many of the real trolls are, it seems). Especially since his preceding comment was hardly productive ("overly emotional with your name calling" was dead on as a characterization).

  • @David Davenport
    @anonymous

    Two people with sub-120 IQs are in charge at the only nuclear weapons factory in America.

    What is your factual evidence for that assertion?

    And from which university did you graduate with what degree?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @anonymous

    Two people with sub-120 IQs are in charge at the only nuclear weapons factory in America.

    What is your factual evidence for that assertion?

    The Anonymous Coward did not cite any and I’m pretty sure doesn’t have any. Getting into MIT means you’ve got an IQ of say 145 at minimum, but the logical error of saying “graduates of fourth-tier schools” axiomatically means sub-120 IQ is, well, this AC didn’t attend MIT I’m pretty sure.

    If AC was a bit more savvy, he’d know a lot of people have to attend “fourth-tier schools” because they’re cheap and they don’t qualify for serious financial assistance. Some can be very good, enough to prepare people for first rank MIT graduate programs. In part because they tend to have no pretenses about existing to do anything but teach, and they also avoid the pathologies of second to third tier schools that are envious of the first tier. Although all but the first tier have tendencies to cargo cult things.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    @That Would Be Telling

    You are overly emotional with your name calling.

    A fourth tier school has worse students than a third tier school. Bright kids go to third tier schools (the main state U) to get a cheap and decent education. Dumb kids graduate from fourth tier schools.

    Replies: @res

    , @res
    @That Would Be Telling


    Getting into MIT means you’ve got an IQ of say 145 at minimum
     
    Not that high. Especially in these days of aggressive affirmative action. If you want to have a real conversation about this we can, but since you seem to prefer obnoxious rhetoric, I'll just end here for now.

    Replies: @nebulafox

  • Steve, you might find this analysis and essay on “Language homogenization at Harvard” interesting, as well as the Hacker News discussion of it where among other things the author goes into more depth about what he did and didn’t do.

    First half is on a paper titled “Increasing Politicization and Homogeneity in Scientific Funding: An Analysis of NSF Grants, 1990-2020” but be sure to read the discussion because there’s a forcing function from the NSF itself, as well as a couple of secular trends that would help bring about the results. The posting uses it to explain the methodology that the author then uses on the Harvard Crimson daily student newspaper 1900 to 2000. The most interesting thing I found in the latter is a discontinuity between 1999 and 2000, with what looks like a steady state following for twenty years.

    Perhaps evidence for a current peak of wokeness, and even more speculatively could presage extreme wokeness moving to colleges that ape Harvard and these people getting into positions of woke status where they could enforce the new holiness on a lot of society.

  • How easy should it be to sue a newspaper or other news outlet for defamation? Thanks to a 1964 Supreme Court decision and the proliferation of constitutionally dubious "anti-SLAPP" laws, it's virtually impossible for someone who accuses a media company of lying about him or her to get to trial, much less win a damage...
  • I have posted many negative comments about Mr. Rall’s columns.

    But this is an informative, thoughtful essay.

  • Jared Taylor interviews the only open white advocate running for Congress. Neil Kumar talks about his background, his racial awakening, and his unconventional campaign.
  • @anonymous
    @It's Ovrer

    The son of Algerian Jews is promoted as the saviour of old France

    Gay men are at the forefront of defending traditional European culture and heritage America

    A Filipina lady is here on Unz review as forefront figure defending trad America

    Latinos are leading the conservative culture surge in the USA

    These are the times in which we live

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I never say “peak” clown world because that’s a foolish attempt to call the end of a holiness spiral, but here we have some classic examples of trying to play by the other side’s rules, which is almost always going to fail.

    A Filipina lady is here on Unz review as forefront figure defending trad America

    Who as I recall brings legitimate grudges from the Imperial Japanese occupation of her homeland to the table, which doesn’t help us at all, and being a female PoC doesn’t for example stop the totlatarian tech Left from canceling her, Airbnb the latest example. But too many on the right are only willing to try to work through people like her.

  • It seems we may have reached the moment when it is time to say goodbye. It has been fun, educational and sometimes cathartic – for me at least. I hope you got something from our time together too. I am not going anywhere, of course. Not for now at least. I love to write. For...
  • @Anon
    You, as so many others, have failed miserably, by not naming the root cause of all the world's troubles, and failing to strike the root.

    It's Jews, Jonathan.

    Evil, Satanic... Jews.

    You, of all people should know that.

    But, your fear of them caused you to hide the Truth.

    Martyred Truth Tellers will be held as Heroes... for Eternity.

    Cowards will be seen for what they are as well.

    So long JC from Nazareth. The real and original JC from Nazareth shakes his head, surely.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @HeebHunter, @Realist

    You, as so many others, have failed miserably, by not naming the root cause of all the world’s troubles, and failing to strike the root.

    It’s Jews, Jonathan.

    That statement is in keeping with the usual stupid statements about Jews on this blog. Your claim that 0.19 percent of the earth’s population has total control over the 99.81 percent of the gentile population is moronic.

    • Disagree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Jack McArthur
    @Realist

    The ruler of this world is Satan according to the New Testament (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4) and Jesus describes him as the father of the Jews.


    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
     
    Before the birth of Jesus the Egyptians said the god of the Jews was Seth who can be described as the proto-satan. Satan is regarded in Christian myth as hating mankind which happens to fit the description of the Jews in the ancient world as being the haters of mankind (Diodorous Siculus etc.).

    The NT describes Satan as offering Jesus the world if he will only worship him. Jesus does not dispute that he can make such an offer. The Jews, in effect, have accepted the offer which is the definition of a bad deal. That satan is the ruler and can make such an offer is explained, as I see it, as a sifting and testing of free will i.e. choosing the ephemeral instead of the eternal.

    , @mulga mumblebrain
    @Realist

    It's NOT the Jews as a whole, of course. It is the power elites among the Jews, who do control US politics, the MSM, entertainment and finance. They also control much the same 'heights' throughout the West. They are allied with goy collaborators, of course, but most goyim they use they employ merely as servants. To deny that is simply preposterous, the evidence being beyond overwhelming. The question must be, is this good, for the goyim and, in the end, for the Jews themselves? Such a lust for power and control, such ambition and determination, will produce a reaction at some stage.

    Replies: @Realist, @Francis Miville

    , @Colin Wright
    @Realist

    '...Your claim that 0.19 percent of the earth’s population has total control over the 99.81 percent of the gentile population is moronic.'

    Arguably. However, that 0.19 percent of the earth's population does enjoy an influence that is disproportionate by a good two orders of magnitude.

    It's kind of like if I got to have five hundred dollars from your bank account each week. Would that bankrupt you? Probably not. Would it be more than I deserve?

    I dare say you would say yes.

    Believing that Jews have total control is a lot less moronic than thinking there is nothing wrong with the degree of control they do have.

  • @Anon
    You, as so many others, have failed miserably, by not naming the root cause of all the world's troubles, and failing to strike the root.

    It's Jews, Jonathan.

    Evil, Satanic... Jews.

    You, of all people should know that.

    But, your fear of them caused you to hide the Truth.

    Martyred Truth Tellers will be held as Heroes... for Eternity.

    Cowards will be seen for what they are as well.

    So long JC from Nazareth. The real and original JC from Nazareth shakes his head, surely.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @HeebHunter, @Realist

    “There’s nothing middle-of-the-road except yellow stripes and dead armadillos.” according to a Texas farmer as related by Jim Hightower.

    I would add that fighting a battle by the other side’s rules when the other side isn’t stupid is likely to rail.

    Even our “Good times make soft Jews” reversion to the mean ones aren’t that stupid.

  • As in Johannesburg a few weeks ago, new cases of the Omicron covid variant are now falling in New York City, with this Friday's number of new cases a little under half of last Friday's. Moreover, ICU's are not particularly packed, at least not yet: e.g., NYU's medical center has 65 ICU beds empty. The...
  • @Bill Jones
    And this is what the whole 2 year scam is all about:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HattMancockMP/status/1482721799687360512

    Human trials will start this July on a micro-chip implant smaller than a pin-head that will hold your booster status and other information to enable a fast and easy way to access things like shops and events. All powered by Microsoft technology. A very exciting technology.
     
    Coming soon to an arm near you.


    In a couple of years all new cars will have a kill switch:
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/new-law-will-install-kill-switches-in-all-new-cars/ar-AASt1Th

    A couple of years later, so will you.

    That'll solve the dissent problem.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Maybe first look at the account of the “person” you’re quoting?

    Totally honest MP for West Suffolk who definitely shouldn’t be in jail for corruption in public office.(parody) kneel before me maggots

    While I can’t expect everyone to learn enough electrical engineering to know what’s possible now and in the future, you might still look up the current state of the art. Can’t be “smaller than a pinhead” and be able to communicate with anything.

    But the kill switches for cars is real in the US. Buy your next one before it becomes mandatory as well as likely a colossal mess.

  • @Mark G.
    @HA


    Mark G seems to think that if Chicago had not bothered with lockdowns, no one would want to leave there. Give me a break. ‘Yeah, I’d have no problem with Floyd riots trashing stores all over downtown, or with high density urban living in general, and paying exorbitant city taxes and getting carjacked, or polar-bear-hunted, or pushed onto subway tracks. That was all fine and dandy, but you know, what really got my goat was having to wear a mask at Starbucks. No way, I said to myself, I’m heading to Texas because no one in a Starbucks in Austin ever wore a mask.”
     
    What do you think is more likely, that the left which comes up with so many other bad policies suddenly becomes brilliant and gets it right on their Covid policy and the value of vaccines and vaccine mandates, mask mandates and lockdowns or that their Covid policy is just as poorly thought out and mistaken as their crime policy, their tax policy, their inflation policy, their immigration policy, their Afghanistan withdrawal plan, their environmental policy, their support of BLM and critical race theory and so on?

    Replies: @HA

    “What do you think is more likely, that the left which comes up with so many other bad policies suddenly becomes brilliant and gets it right on their Covid policy…”

    The “left”, you say? Like Netanyahu, or Putin, you mean? Or Duterte, who thought that lockdown violators should be shot? Or that Chechen leader with the blingy gun, who imposed a flat out nighttime curfew during the lockdowns? Or maybe Sailer or Cochran or Unz? THAT’S what you call the “left”?

    No, face it, your framing is as full of potholes as the rest of your failed narrative. This time around, it’s true that in the US the Russian and Chinese troll farms were able to hit a home run by focusing on gullible Trumpster geezers in disseminating their propaganda (though in the end, even Trump was sane enough to disavow the anti-vaxxers), but prior to Trump, anti-vaxxers tended to lean left. You chose to join cause with the Jenny McCarthys and Alicia Silverstones of the world and other such renowned vaccine experts, and that’s your damage. As far as I’m concerned, this is basic epidemiology more than right or left, as practiced for millennia. Washington imposed a quarantine on Boston during the Revolutionary War and enforced it at gunpoint, and required his soldiers to get vaccinated at a time when vaccination itself killed as many as 10% of those who opted for it. Was he a leftist too? So much for the eagle and American flag memes the anti-vaxxers keep waving.

    In the end, I care what’s right and wrong more so than what’s right or left, and I’m not impressed by people who think scanning electron microscope imagery is a mafia plot. If you want to say that somehow makes me “left”, it says more about you than me. You might also want to question why your fellow bros all of a sudden thought Sweden had all the answers if this left-right thing continues to be a preoccupation.

    Once upon a time, those willing to sell out America to Moscow at the drop of a feather were pretty much squarely on the left. Next time around, that polarity may similarly flip. Either way, they’ll likely still be traitors in my book, and I hope I won’t ever make a habit of checking which way the political winds are blowing when stating the obvious.

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Mark G.
    @HA


    You chose to join cause with the Jenny McCarthys and Alicia Silverstones of the world and other such renowned vaccine experts, and that’s your damage.
     
    You chose to join cause with Big Pharma, Big Tech, corrupt government bureaucrats like Tony Fauci and senile corrupt politicians like Joe Biden. You stood by and ignored how government agencies blocked early treatment protocols that, according to Dr. Peter McCullough, would have reduced Covid hospitalizations by 85%, thereby causing unnecessary pain and suffering for hundreds of thousands, including myself. Then you told us it was our fault for getting sick when we had no choice on what treatments we received.

    You watched as honest doctors who wanted to use their knowledge to treat patients were threatened with the loss of their medical licenses or even required to undergo psychiatric examinations, as if this were the Soviet Union dealing with political dissidents. You watched as billionaires like Bezos, Gates and Zuckerberg became even wealthier during the lockdowns. You watched as Big Pharma was given legal immunity for their inadequately tested vaccines and you watched as people were forced to be guinea pigs in a gigantic mass experiment, thus violating the Nuremburg Code adopted after World War II.

    I'm on the side of freedom and bodily autonomy and you are on the other side, the side that is the moral equivalent of a thug who bashes someone over the head with a club and takes what he wants. Don't think you fool me for a second.

    Replies: @HA

  • @Intelligent Dasein
    BoJo just ended the pandemic in England.

    Close the comments, Steve. This one is done.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The Omicron wave has peaked in the U.K., that a game changer although people will still be hospitalized and dying from it for a while. That’s not true everywhere, isn’t true for my part of deep Red state America where total hospitalizations are now rising after being in a steady state for a long time, so it’s not “over” yet for Steve’s commentariat. And there’s still a great deal to discuss, people are still litigating everything back to before it broke out in Wuhan all the way to the discovery of viruses which too many deny, and the future is unknown, for example who knows what else “Biden” will try to milk out of this a day late and a dollar short, although things are certainly looking hopeful now.

    • Agree: ic1000
  • @HA
    @That Would Be Telling

    "I don’t think COVID fascism is the only reason people are moving from Blue hellholes to states like Florida and Texas, you’ve got to factor in the BLM summer of mostly peaceful protests."

    I agree with this. Californians have been getting fed up with the homeless encampments and overall Brazilification of their cities long before COVID came around. And elsewhere, the trends we've seen in the last two years are more or less the same trends we saw in earlier years.

    And I have no problem if Montanans decide they don't need to have the same mask restrictions as residents of Chicago or some other place where subways and public transportation is a thing. And yes, going to a place without all the big-city packed-sardine-squalor is a major selling point during a pandemic, regardless of whether or not you choose to vaccinate.

    Mark G seems to think that if Chicago had not bothered with lockdowns, no one would want to leave there. Give me a break. 'Yeah, I'd have no problem with Floyd riots trashing stores all over downtown, or with high density urban living in general, and paying exorbitant city taxes and getting carjacked, or polar-bear-hunted, or pushed onto subway tracks. That was all fine and dandy, but you know, what really got my goat was having to wear a mask at Starbucks. No way, I said to myself, I'm heading to Texas because no one in a Starbucks in Austin ever wore a mask."

    How does that possibly make sense?

    https://i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/20210608_BrookingsMetro_PopLoss_Fig1.png

    Replies: @Mark G.

    Mark G seems to think that if Chicago had not bothered with lockdowns, no one would want to leave there. Give me a break. ‘Yeah, I’d have no problem with Floyd riots trashing stores all over downtown, or with high density urban living in general, and paying exorbitant city taxes and getting carjacked, or polar-bear-hunted, or pushed onto subway tracks. That was all fine and dandy, but you know, what really got my goat was having to wear a mask at Starbucks. No way, I said to myself, I’m heading to Texas because no one in a Starbucks in Austin ever wore a mask.”

    What do you think is more likely, that the left which comes up with so many other bad policies suddenly becomes brilliant and gets it right on their Covid policy and the value of vaccines and vaccine mandates, mask mandates and lockdowns or that their Covid policy is just as poorly thought out and mistaken as their crime policy, their tax policy, their inflation policy, their immigration policy, their Afghanistan withdrawal plan, their environmental policy, their support of BLM and critical race theory and so on?

    • Agree: Brutusale
    • Replies: @HA
    @Mark G.

    "What do you think is more likely, that the left which comes up with so many other bad policies suddenly becomes brilliant and gets it right on their Covid policy..."

    The "left", you say? Like Netanyahu, or Putin, you mean? Or Duterte, who thought that lockdown violators should be shot? Or that Chechen leader with the blingy gun, who imposed a flat out nighttime curfew during the lockdowns? Or maybe Sailer or Cochran or Unz? THAT'S what you call the "left"?

    No, face it, your framing is as full of potholes as the rest of your failed narrative. This time around, it's true that in the US the Russian and Chinese troll farms were able to hit a home run by focusing on gullible Trumpster geezers in disseminating their propaganda (though in the end, even Trump was sane enough to disavow the anti-vaxxers), but prior to Trump, anti-vaxxers tended to lean left. You chose to join cause with the Jenny McCarthys and Alicia Silverstones of the world and other such renowned vaccine experts, and that's your damage. As far as I'm concerned, this is basic epidemiology more than right or left, as practiced for millennia. Washington imposed a quarantine on Boston during the Revolutionary War and enforced it at gunpoint, and required his soldiers to get vaccinated at a time when vaccination itself killed as many as 10% of those who opted for it. Was he a leftist too? So much for the eagle and American flag memes the anti-vaxxers keep waving.

    In the end, I care what's right and wrong more so than what's right or left, and I'm not impressed by people who think scanning electron microscope imagery is a mafia plot. If you want to say that somehow makes me "left", it says more about you than me. You might also want to question why your fellow bros all of a sudden thought Sweden had all the answers if this left-right thing continues to be a preoccupation.

    Once upon a time, those willing to sell out America to Moscow at the drop of a feather were pretty much squarely on the left. Next time around, that polarity may similarly flip. Either way, they'll likely still be traitors in my book, and I hope I won't ever make a habit of checking which way the political winds are blowing when stating the obvious.

    Replies: @Mark G.

  • @HA
    @ic1000

    "Covid/lockdown spurred increases in cancer, heart attack, and stroke deaths don’t show up in the statistics — yet. As far as I know. Anecdotally, people who work in health care talk about this, a lot."

    Thanks for that. The efforts to blame as many of the excess dead as possible on any health measures against the spread of COVID, as opposed to COVID itself (as well as the myraid of complaints from long COVID, any subsequent myocarditis, delays in necessary operations because surgical rooms were swamped with COVID patients, etc.) are part of a longstanding effort by just-a-flu bros and their sympathizers (and that includes, I should note, anyone who thinks Levitt didn't make an ass of himself by both his wretchedly failed forecasts and pretending his Nobel in economics made him an expert on epidemiology).

    Earlier, there were estimates that non-COVID deaths were as high as a third of the excess deaths (that article cited has since passed peer review) down to more like 15%.

    But again, trying to pretend that "non-COVID" death can be blamed on lockdowns or vaccines is a ridiculous stretch.

    Replies: @utu, @utu

    HA, for you information my recent comment on why the commonly raised argument that the vaccinated should not be concerned with the unvaccinated is fallacious:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/covid-deaths-and-vaxxing-deaths/#comment-5127080

    ” So the vaccinated have little to fear from those who reject the needle” – Not really. Wrong (libertarian) thinking. The epidemic is more than just the sum of individual transmissions.

    (1) While the peaks of viral load in vaccinated and unvaccinated are similar the decline of viral load in vaccinated is quicker, so the probability of being infected by unvaccinated will be somewhat higher.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext
    Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study

    Viral Dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 Variants in Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Persons
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102507

    Breakthrough infections among vaccine recipients were characterized by a faster clearance time than that among unvaccinated participants, with a mean of 5.5 days (95% credible interval, 4.6 to 6.5) and 7.5 days (95% credible interval, 6.8 to 8.2), respectively. The shorter clearance time led to a shorter overall duration of infection among vaccine recipients

    (7.5 days)/(5.5 days) = 1.36 meaning that unvaccinated are 1.36 times more infectious because they have 1.36x more time to infect somebody.

    (2a) Then there is the epidemic aspect of risk. While the effectiveness of vaccine against infection is much lower now still it is greater than zero. Thus among N number of unvaccinated one may expect more infected than among N number of vaccinated. So when you walk into the crowd of N vaccinated and N unvaccinated probability of being infected by unvaccinated will be higher.

    (2b) At any stage of epidemic in population where k=70% are vaccinated chances of being infected (regardless if you are vaccinated or not vaccinated) will be lower than in population where 50% are vaccinated. Your chance of being infected whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated decrease with the prevalence k of vaccination.

    Because of (1), (2a), (2b) blaming the unvaccinated for increasing the risk of infection for everybody not just the vaccinated is justified.

    Therefore not admitting Djokovic to Australia was rational and justified. Entrance of unvaccinated Djokowic would decrease the prevalence of vaccination in Australia and thus would increase the risk of infection for everybody.

    By not admitting Djokovic Australia demonstrated that it is a serious country that acts consistently by enforcing its regulations and laws.

    One must keep in mind that Australia soon after the pandemic began in Australia decided on the virus elimination strategy (Zero Covid). By sticking to it they achieved 25.4 times lower death toll than the US. If similar policy was carried out in the US over 800, 000 Americans would be still alive. And you want tell Australians to be inconsistent and lackadaisical because some Serbian schmuck is good at tennis?

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @HA
    @utu

    Thanks. I too have noted how little the "akshully, maximum viral load is similar for both vaxxed and unvaxxed" meme means little in and of itself without comparing how long the shedding persists in the unvaxxed relative to the vaxxed. I suspect that difference will be less stark for omicron than it was for delta (during the peak of which, the unvaxxed were six times more likely to infect others than the vaxxed, but it's still worth swatting that down. (I also realize that part of the reason for that difference has little to do with the vaccine, and more to do with the fact that the vaxxed are also more likely to have the sense to take other basic precautions.)

    And thanks for correcting me about how Levitt's Nobel was chemistry. Which is closer to epidemiology than economics, but evidently, not nearly to the extent that he seems to think.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  • @Achmed E. Newman
    @HA

    What in the Sam Hill do the Koch Brothers have to do with anything I've written, on this site, ever? They are not Libertarians, no matter what someone on the internet told you.

    No, the bedwetting and perpetual terror are on your end, HA. That's exactly what the Establishment wants, as H.L. Mencken noted many years ago:

    "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."

    As far as:


    I’ve been told for years by the self-appointed sages of this website that those who preach about liberty and justice and being a real American are just looking for more cannon fodder to draw fire while they pursue their next get-rich-quick boondoggle, or else are just trying to market their liberty-justice-real-American-pillows.
     
    I'm not every single commenter on iSteve rolled into one. The people wanting to turn Americans into cannon fodder are the Neocons, quite a different crowd from those of us who want less government and more freedom. Think Ron Paul. Hell, go read some Ron Paul. You might become a better person.

    You need to quit your fixation with this hobgoblin of a PanicFest that governments and the Lyin' Press have ginned up over the last 2 years.

    Replies: @HA

    “What in the Sam Hill do the Koch Brothers have to do with anything I’ve written, on this site, ever?”

    You just submitted a video that you yourself admitted was from Reason magazine, and you’re asking me what the Koch Brothers have to do with anything? Are you and the dimwits who actually bothered to agree with you really that clueless? Oh wait, the latter group includes the guy who didn’t bother with the vaccine and then wound up in a hospital with COVID and now complains about about how hospitals are dropping the ball when it comes to COVID, while the other is a former self-appointed spokesman of the just-a-flu bros who now claims he was never a member. Well, never mind — it all makes sense.

    “The people wanting to turn Americans into cannon fodder are the Neocons,…

    Open your eyes. Plenty of groups follow the exact some rulebook, from Moscow to DC. Try and be as cynical about the troll farms and the libertarian think tanks you get your coronavirus “information” from as you are about big media or big pharma and get back to me.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @HA


    .............while the other is a former self-appointed spokesman of the just-a-flu bros who now claims he was never a member.
     
    And as usual, you retail the same old lie. You are a contemptible liar. Not that I expect anything different from you.

    There's some fresh air about. It might be dangerous to a shrieking hysteric like you. Put on another mask, Bubble-Boy.
  • @MEH 0910
    @MEH 0910

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/18/biden-free-masks-omicron-surge-527335

    https://twitter.com/davidalim/status/1483574392831582215

    Replies: @Flying Dutchman, @That Would Be Telling

    Still, it represents the most significant federal effort to distribute face coverings since the pandemic began.

    And that’s criminal two years into the pandemic. It would have taken a while to create factories to make the special filtering material used in HEPA mask filters, but we could have done it as long as the owners were assured of continued purchases after the pandemic, one mask maker that geared up for the 2009 swine flu pandemic almost went out of business after it when hospitals etc. returned to sourcing them from the PRC.

    The West’s ruling trash shows all the time they’re not serious, for example France let Honeywell shut down there and the machines were scrapped. 3M is serious, but they can afford to maintain only 2X the machines etc. they usually use in their many factories.

    The 400 million masks represent a little more than half of the federal stockpile that officials have worked to replenish since the earliest days of the Covid-19 outbreak

    This is extremely dangerous if something new pops up and healthcare workers again need outsized quantities of masks (note industrial ones are fine as long as they aren’t doing procedures that might cause something to splash in their face). Obama didn’t replenish the stockpile after 2009 and the ones that were left from before then were generally expired by 2020, like their elastic bands were failing.

    Given how late in the day of Omicron this will be, we can tell it’s another stunt by “Biden” to try to reduce the heat of being the worst President since Jimmy Carter. If we believe the polling, he’s below Carter’s lows.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  • @Mr. Anon
    @Triteleia Laxa

    All I can take away from that is...............that you really don't know, nor does anyone.

    There is some genetic testing of certain cases that indicate a different strain. Fine. But that is only done in certain cases. For everyone else, they're getting the same PCR or anti-body test that people were getting a year ago or more that does not differentiate between strains. And yet everything is said to be Omicron.

    People are now suddenly coming down with a respiratory illness that is different than the previous version of COVID. Different how? Less severe symptoms? Couldn't that just be due to people having greater immunity against it, because they've already been exposed

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    All I can take away from that is……………that you really don’t know, nor does anyone.

    No, you really don’t know. I have a good idea, and the various experts have an excellent one.

    There is some genetic testing of certain cases that indicate a different strain. Fine. But that is only done in certain cases. For everyone else, they’re getting the same PCR or anti-body test that people were getting a year ago or more that does not differentiate between strains. And yet everything is said to be Omicron.

    No, in the UK genetic sequencing is done with the PCR tests. By October 11th last year, Britain had uploaded 1 million Covid sequences and do even more now. It is not a small data set.

    People are now suddenly coming down with a respiratory illness that is different than the previous version of COVID. Different how? Less severe symptoms? Couldn’t that just be due to people having greater immunity against it, because they’ve already been exposed

    While previous exposure and, primarily, the vaccine, are greatly helping, the sudden appearance of mass reinfection, the symptom changes from Delta infections (even post vaccine), and the results of the large scale genetic sequencing are more than evidence enough for me. That you didn’t even realise that positive PCR tests are routinely sequenced should lead you to question where you’ve been getting your information from and your general knowledge.

    • Thanks: HA
    • Replies: @HA
    @Triteleia Laxa

    "While previous exposure and, primarily, the vaccine, are greatly helping, the sudden appearance of mass reinfection, the symptom changes from Delta infections (even post vaccine), and the results of the large scale genetic sequencing are more than evidence enough for me."

    There are also animal studies (i.e. involving hamsters and the like with absolutely zero earlier exposure to COVID) that indicate that omicron, while still in the COVID family, is fundamentally weaker at infecting the lungs, and instead lingers in the upper respiratory tract. So no, it likely that there is more here than just herd immunity or previous exposure to COVID. Omicron does indeed seem more like a lucky break, and hopefully it is more the light at the end of the tunnel than the calm before some even more vaccine evasive-strain that isn't nearly as mild.

    But you'd have to be willing to read a story from the NYTimes in order to find out stuff like that, and some people around here trying to argue with you prefer cowering in a bunker and drinking their own urine, all the while castigating others for their "slave mentality".

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

  • @Rob
    @That Would Be Telling

    Are you sure about childhood live attenuated viruses requiring multiple shots per disease? I thought MMR was a single shot. Googled, they recommend two doses for both infants and adults.


    From the CDC


    One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.

    Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.
     
    Arguendo covid were measles, having everyone 93% protected is better than having half of people 97% protected. I don’t know offhand, but I would bet the antibody response gears up faster with live attenuated.

    I think smallpox called for so frequent revaccination because it had a 30% death rate, but vaccination is (nearly) harmless.

    So far as I know, all the approved covid vaccines are intramuscular. An intramuscular vaccine is not going to generate a secretory IgA response in your respiratory tract. There’d have to be an oral/intranasal one, or at least a booster to get sterilizing immunity.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Are you sure about childhood live attenuated viruses requiring multiple shots per disease? I thought MMR was a single shot. Googled, they recommend two doses for both infants and adults.

    From the CDC

    Also see from the CDC their “Recommended Child and Adolescent Immunization Schedule for ages 18 years or younger.” I’m going to iterate over the ones specified through six years of age. One rotavirus requires two doses, one three. TDaP is a special case along with the two following, five for it plus another age 11-12 and 3-4 for the others (it’s credibly claimed we should have either struck with whole cell pertussis (whooping cough) or the vaccine should include another toxiod from it). Salk type inactivated whole virus four, although it’s arguably gratuitous to start at two months given how close it is to eradication even if now going in the wrong direction.

    OK, my memory was wrong, confounded it with less effective vaccines I would guess, MMR live attenuated viruses only two doses starting at twelve months. Or maybe early dosing has been dropped because of the anti-vaxxers. And maybe that’s right, on the other hand measles in addition to its immediate effects trashes the immune system for a couple of years, is credibly claimed to be related to 90% of childhood deaths in the Third World and historically that was probably also true for the US, U.K. and Denmark where I guess this has been seriously studied.

    Chicken pox also live attenuated virus and two doses, and that’s a really good idea to avoid shingles later in your life (ask me how I know…). “Passive” hepatitis A vaccines two doses, a non-Western freeze dried live attenuated virus only one dose per Wikipedia. For other nations, the WHO collects their vaccination schedules here.

    I think smallpox called for so frequent revaccination because it had a 30% death rate, but vaccination is (nearly) harmless.

    Per Wikipedia there were two variants of circulating smallpox, Variola major and Variola minor, the former was the most common and most severe with something like the overall 30% death rate we remember, the later “1%”or less.”

    In the US in the 1960s-70s it was a younger childhood vaccine, you only needed a booster if you were going to travel someplace that still had it like Haiti (again, ask me how I know…). A really terrible disease, and a reminder that evolution to minor symptoms is not at all guaranteed.

  • @Mark G.
    @HA


    I’ve had it up to here with lame Facebook (and Reason magazine) memes about eagles, and lions, and that quip by Branklin about safety vs. liberty, and how we need to live in perpetual terror because we’re only one senate vote from America being permanently lost forever, etc., etc. and whatever other bedwetting you and your kind engage in.
     
    Ultimately our response to this epidemic, along with what scientific evidence we look at and how we interpret it, is based on how much we value or devalue freedom. The problem for those who don't value freedom is that freedom works and the alternative doesn't. This can be seen in Biden's abysmal poll ratings. Biden is the most prominent political advocate of vaccines and vaccine mandates and as his political slide continues it harms the pro-vaccine side since the public mentally links him and promotion of the vaccines.

    You can also see this in how people have been voting with their feet. Large numbers are moving out of states like California and New York and into states like Texas and Florida. Florida governor Ron DeSantis and his surgeon general Joseph Ladapo emphasize early treatment, focused protection of the elderly, voluntary vaccination of those in high risk groups, and avoidance of lockdowns, school closures and mask and vaccine mandates. Adjusted for age distribution, Florida is about at the national average for Covid deaths and they have achieved that without sacrificing their freedom. This is why over 200,000 people moved to Florida in 2021.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    I don’t think COVID fascism is the only reason people are moving from Blue hellholes to states like Florida and Texas, you’ve got to factor in the BLM summer of mostly peaceful protests. New York City is a trifecta of that, inherent limits for many in avoiding getting exposed to COVID due to shared high rise elevators, the subway system, and probably other packing people close together issues, and letting essentially no one own a gun (~60K licenses just for that for each of handguns and long guns). NY state is also bad in places with the most population about handgun ownership and concealed carry, and in any case you have deal with the authorities to get approvals. Other extreme Blue states cover a spectrum in this, and far too many places including NYC have Soros prosecutors adding to the need to get out because the police can’t protect you, can’t keep crime tamped down, and you can’t protect yourself.

    I guess my general point is that all these things from COVID fascism to quality of living including crime tend to cluster together on the anti-freedom or pro-freedom as you put it sides, with exceptions in for example The Final Solution to the Medicaid Problem of sending COVID positive patients to nursing homes not set up for isolation in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania which are Purple but currently with Blue governors. And Florida is a near archetypal example, it’s ruling trash are for example terrified of open carry and ready to pounce on any self-defense shooter of a Special Victim like George Zimmerman, but it’s still generally good and as you note, when adjusted for age has done very well in handling COVID. Although I’d want to calculate that without the five Final Solution states.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @That Would Be Telling

    This is why people are moving from NY:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uUHVoA4ktY

    NY state is also bad in places with the most population about handgun ownership and concealed carry, and in any case you have deal with the authorities to get approvals.

    The remaining cowardly Whites of NYC wouldn't care anyways if concealed carry was allowed. They all run away in subway attack videos and never have mace or a club.

    , @HA
    @That Would Be Telling

    "I don’t think COVID fascism is the only reason people are moving from Blue hellholes to states like Florida and Texas, you’ve got to factor in the BLM summer of mostly peaceful protests."

    I agree with this. Californians have been getting fed up with the homeless encampments and overall Brazilification of their cities long before COVID came around. And elsewhere, the trends we've seen in the last two years are more or less the same trends we saw in earlier years.

    And I have no problem if Montanans decide they don't need to have the same mask restrictions as residents of Chicago or some other place where subways and public transportation is a thing. And yes, going to a place without all the big-city packed-sardine-squalor is a major selling point during a pandemic, regardless of whether or not you choose to vaccinate.

    Mark G seems to think that if Chicago had not bothered with lockdowns, no one would want to leave there. Give me a break. 'Yeah, I'd have no problem with Floyd riots trashing stores all over downtown, or with high density urban living in general, and paying exorbitant city taxes and getting carjacked, or polar-bear-hunted, or pushed onto subway tracks. That was all fine and dandy, but you know, what really got my goat was having to wear a mask at Starbucks. No way, I said to myself, I'm heading to Texas because no one in a Starbucks in Austin ever wore a mask."

    How does that possibly make sense?

    https://i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/20210608_BrookingsMetro_PopLoss_Fig1.png

    Replies: @Mark G.

  • @That Would Be Telling
    @HA

    I would say it's impressive that these people can't grok the concept of false color as a visualization aid, but in general they're so grossly ignorant of SCIENCE!!! and so resistant to actually learning anything new about it—two solid years into a pandemic!!!—that it's actually the sort of thing I've come to expect. Without actually knowing science, and trying to critique it on it's own terms which should be possible, they demand you do things on their own terms even when that's physically impossible ("isolation of a pure virus"), while denying a great deal of established science, which again if it's science can be falsified as for example global cooling and global warming were in turn.

    Whatever Galileo said to Kepler didn't stick, nor did it for him and his contemporaries who insisted orbits were circles stick to the Church. Because while both were properly skeptical of epicycles et. al. (a word which to this day is a criticism of the "you appear to be going down the wrong path" type), the Church also knew the data didn't fit circles (Kepler realized they were ellipses). That was the Church's scientific issue with Galileo, his bigger crime was that he was a jerk in general and about this. Which we can observe is a tradition that continues to this day in so many who are wrong, or Not Even Wrong about COVID.

    Replies: @utu

    they’re so grossly ignorant of SCIENCE!!! and so resistant to actually learning anything new about it—two solid years into a pandemic!!!

    They operate in the pseudo-science paradigm where epistemology is subservient to hypotheses. But I would not discount possibility that many of them are trolls with no intent of learning and modifying their position. Look at Mr. Anon – his position about the validity of PCR tests has not changed.

    The skepticism and suspiciousness is natural and useful in moderation but it have been weaponized and raised to the rabid level when the anti-covid disinformation propaganda was launched with “just-the-flu”, “no virus”, “PCR tests fake” and then “masks not needed or do not work”, “lockdowns not needed or do not work and harmful” and then going full anti-vaxx.

    Ron Unz has observed that early in the pandemic the right and the alt-right were pretty angry with China blaming it for the virus release but when the anti-covid disinformation propaganda was launched the right and the alt-right shifted its attention from China to Western governments as the culprits who imposed a massive psy-op on them by launching a non existent virus pandemic. Who would blame China if it is just the flu? But if it is just the flu you must blame Washington, Media, Bill Gates, Davos for the psy-op of false pandemic.

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/lifting-the-lockdown-easy-does-it/?showcomments#comment-3863472

    Based on the comments to that ZeroHedge article someone linked, it seems to have worked perfectly. The “China bioweapon” people at ZeroHedge are apparently getting totally swamped by the “It’s Just the Flu!!” people. After all, if It’s Just the Flu! how can anyone blame China?

    It is well know that China’s soft power and her abilities in pushing their narrative in the West are very weak however Russia always was pretty good in disinformation games since the times of Okhrana and then KGB (*). There is no question that Russian media, bots and trolls were engaged in disinformation campaign form the very beginning of the pandemic. It is possible that the job of saving China’s ass was outsourced to Lubyanka and for Russians it was just an extra motive to do what they love to do anyway (**).

    (*) See. Operation Infektion (wiki)

    (**) Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate (October 2018)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  • @That Would Be Telling
    @Clyde

    Please define what you think a "traditional type vaccine" is.

    If we go by the name "vaccine" and what it originally was, a pox virus a lot less pathogenic than smallpox, then we're talking attenuated viruses. While people have speculated this will be the Final Solution to the COVID Question, the problem is that these take a long time to develop unless nature hands us a strain or species like cowpox and vaccinia.

    So you have to take the real thing, remove its fangs, and prove the fangs won't come back, as they can with the Sabin type polio vaccine if it passes through enough people (fecal->oral route).

    Are you really honestly going to tell me that people (like you?) who do not trust non-profits (Oxford), companies and governments for safe and effective COVID vaccines with newer technology will trust any attenuated virus vaccine developed, tested, and approved by these institutions? If you do I will laugh in your face.

    Next most traditional would be inactivated whole virus vaccines, which for COVID are not a stunning example of success with maybe 1-2 exceptions. The PRC ones are from the PRC, and one isn't very effective. The one Western effort I'm familiar with from Valneva isn't looking good, the U.K. was an early investor and has canceled their order; this might be due to insufficient funding to do a Phase III trail big enough for Western regulators. Trusting India for this sort of thing is iffy, but Bharat Biotech's paper(s) on their's looked good, including a response to the nucleocapid protein.

    After that is proteins and some other approaches that the like the above inactivated vaccines do their thing outside of cells, I've previously discussed how this approach hasn't worked well for Sanofi Pasteur, Novavax or the Vector Institute.

    Viral vector vaccines are technology almost as new as mRNA and have not been a stunning success, Oxford's is not very effective, Sputnik V's second dose is very hard to make, Janssen is more effective than Oxford's but is not great in the pandemic context if you can deliver multiple doses of another vaccine to your population. They're fairly fast to market, and Oxford had a big advantage in starting for real, on the ground, a Phase I trial for a MERS vaccine, their second attempt, in the middle of December 2019. But their side effect profiles are not great, Oxford and blood clots, Janssen the same but at a lower rate, Sputnik V's claim of absolutely no serious side effects ever is not credible.

    Leaving us with mRNA, which is very fast to market and easier to manufacture than stuff in cell cultures, which is every one of the above options except for Medicago making the spike protein in plants instead of bug cells. Now there's preliminary efficacy results from them, might actually be good since they're against the variants that followed classic Wuhan.

    Which of course also answers your complaint about "low efficacy" in mRNA vaccines, although I have no idea why you're so sure we're stuck with mRNA vaccines, or more importantly, the first generation of them. I mean, if another technology actually was head to head better than mRNA and had a good side effect profile it would be favored, and getting to Phase II trials where you can start to guess all of that doesn't require "billions."

    Replies: @Rob, @Clyde

    Please define what you think a “traditional type vaccine” is.

    All that came before the mRNA ones for Covid. You will probably tell me that there were mRNA vaccines used previously. If so, I hope they actually worked. To the average person like me, I never heard of mRNA before Covidxyz.

    The trad vaxxx route probably doesn’t work for Corona viruses like Covidxyz and the common cold.

  • @Rob
    @That Would Be Telling

    Replicon vaccines are in between mRNA and live-attenuated or vectored vaccines.

    Think of replicons as self-amplifying mRNA vaccines. They cannot revert to virulence. They are self-adjuvanting, though there’s no reason they couldn’t be delivered with another one.

    A replicon vax has a minimum of two open reading frames (the part of a DNA or RNA stretch that gets transcribed into an mRNA that is translated into protein) that can be on the same or separate RNAs.

    1) The antigen. For COVID, this would be the spike/modified spike/spike segment/spike frozen in prefusion conformation.

    2) The RNA-dependent RNA polymerase. Call it rdrp. This protein turns a few RNA molecules that get into the cell into a bunch of RNA molecules

    The RNA(s) that code(s) for the antigen and rdrp has segments at the beginning(5’) and end (3’) portions of the RNA that allow the rdrp to make positive-sense “genomes” negative sense “anti genomes,” and positive sense mRNA molecules that get translated into antigen and rdrp.

    The magic of this system is that fewer molecules need to enter a cell to get a lot of antigen. Most RNA viruses have a trick to hide double-stranded RNA (genome bonded to the anti genome) from the cells’ sentinel proteins. They wrap each in protein so they don’t associate. They replicate the second strand in a protein shell, they replicate the genome in membrane-enclosed spaces, there are ways I’m not thinking of, I am sure.

    Anyway, the replicon has none of that. It is just churning out dsRNA like a madman! That gets the cell in “danger Will Robinson! Danger!” mode. The cell tries to shut down protein synthesis, but the RNA has a structure that lets it produce antigen and rdrp with cellular protein synthesis down for the count.

    In addition to the cell being all, “Oh fuck, I gots me a virus. Time to die for the good of the organism.” It is signaling to its neighbors and the immune system that it has a virus synthesizing protein, so any protein that’s really common in the cell/attached to the membrane? That’s what we need to make an antibody for. It’s what T cells need to be activated by. The mRNA vaccines are not particularly immunogenic, that’s why it takes three shots (and counting) to get an adequate immune response.

    There is no danger of reversion because a replicon is not a virus. It has no way of getting its “genome” into nucleocapsid within a membrane. Coronavirus uses ~30 genes. The replicon has two.

    Some problems/difficulties:

    You can make your initial RNA(s) with non-natural mRNA bases like N1-methylpseudouridine, but that’s just one template mRNA molecule. The RNA synthesized in the cell is bog-standard ATGC bases.

    At some point, the cell saturates its protein or RNA synthesis capacity. Then more mRNA does not mean more antigen. The fact that it is still making rdrp now is unfortunate. That’s capacity that could be going into making antigen. This can be mitigated by putting the rdrp and antigen on separate molecules and fiddling with the concentrations, but every microparticle might have different ratios of the rdrp gene and antigen gene.

    The spike-like protein is what we want the immune response to focus on, but the rdrp is also a foreign antigen. We don’t want an immune response to this. It’s not as bad as an immune response to adenovirus vector capsids. The rdrp protein is not in the injected microparticle, that’s just RNA. Nevertheless, an immune reaction to the rdrp may interfere with the reaction to the spike-like antigen. Maybe this can be mitigated by finding common B cell epitopes in the rdrp and mutating them to make a less antigenic and hopefully less immunogenic protein. Ideally, we’d have either a very non-immunogenic rdrp or we’d have a series of distinct rdrp genes that we could use for booster shots.

    The good things

    1) RNA production is very similar to that of the current mRNA vaccines. Plasmid production in E. coli bioreactors followed by in vitro transcription of the RNA. Can even cap the first molecules if we like, but internal ribosome entry sites might be more efficient

    2) particle production is similar to mRNA vaccines. The “genomic” RNA(s) is larger than the current vaccines. There is also the matter of getting antigen and rdrp genes in acceptable ratios. But even variation could work to our advantage, but that takes testing.

    3) Dose-sparing. because the RNA amplifies in the “infected” cells, smaller initial doses can be used. This is a big deal. On the other hand, a large-ish dose can be used that would work in just one shot.

    4) More natural adjuvant activity from the dsRNA than from the cationic lipids that the current vaccines use.

    5) Does not need to be delivered in lipid nanoparticles. Packaging the RNA in a pseudoviral particle is possible. It’d enter the cell like a virus. Might allow easier storage, perhaps freeze-dried. No super cold freezers or vials that cannot be shaken.

    Vaccinology has been a very conservative for a long time. It’s not been exceptionally profitable for pharma. A single (or two or three) dose pharmaceutical that prevents a disease for a lifetime is the opposite of what drug companies want, drugs that treat a common condition and have to be taken for a lifetime.

    There’s a project that is trying to do open-source vaccines as a non-profit. https://radvac.org/ I wish them all the best, but I’m not sure what they want is possible. They say they have an intranasal peptide vaccine using chitosan as the adjuvant. I saw chitosan as an adjuvant in a paper a couple years ago. I know nothing about it, though.

    Would also like to point out that there are moderately good to very good mucosal adjuvants. Modes of Action for Mucosal Vaccine Adjuvants from 2017 is s good read. Some are even human proteins. They would likely get regulatory approval. Others are vaccines themselves. The entry protein subunit of cholera toxin is non-toxic and a good mucosal adjuvant. Cholera toxoid (a mutated, inactive version of cholera toxin is an approved vaccine, though not for intranasal use.

    I hope there is a project somewhere to take the crystal structures of all the viral attachment and fusion proteins that we have and work out which amino acids have bond angles that are allowed for proline but are not proline. Then, replace the current residue(s) with proline. They’d probably end up replacing ones that do not move very much from prefusion to fusion conformation, but they only need to get one vital one to disable the protein and make a good antigen.

    Replies: @ic1000, @That Would Be Telling

    Thanks! Your essay on this addition to our first generation mRNA vaccine technology emphasizes to me how there’s a whole bunch of tricks cells and viruses use that we can try adding to get better vaccines besides just generating N copies of a target protein.

    The mRNA vaccines are not particularly immunogenic, that’s why it takes three shots (and counting) to get an adequate immune response.

    Can’t help but notice multiple doses are required for some childhood attenuated live virus vaccines, and the old smallpox vaccine of this type, perhaps due to its pre-sterile injection technology administration method wasn’t considered to provide good protection for more than three, maybe five years. And of course the toxiod (non-pathogenic analogue of a toxin) TDaP vaccine needs boosters every 5-10 years.

    So I wonder how we can know this, especially with the moving target presented by variants of classic Wuhan. We can also see the limits of adenovirus vector vaccines which I assume produce copies of the spike protein for much longer than the current mRNA vaccines and also need multiple doses, and that appears to be evident in Janssen’s one jab results.

    On the other hand as far as I know this is the first time this class of vectors has been tried beyond Janssen’s Phase III trial for their Ebola vaccine, which has never been put to the Phase IV (post-marketing) test against the virus. Based on the immunological surrogate endpoints, it’s believed the first dose using their adenovirus vector must be followed up in two months by one using Modified Vaccinia Ankara, and per Wikipedia

    This prophylactic two-dose regimen is therefore not suitable for an outbreak response where immediate protection is necessary. As a precautionary measure for individuals at imminent risk of exposure to Ebola virus (for example healthcare professionals and those living in or visiting areas with an ongoing Ebola virus disease outbreak), an extra Zabdeno [the adenovirus] booster vaccination should be considered for individuals who completed the Zabdeno-Mvabea two-dose vaccination regimen more than four months ago.

    For that matter, has there been any credible claims of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines that required only one dose for sterilizing efficacy against classic Wuhan? I think we can’t answer a lot of questions until this virus is no longer a moving target.

    • Replies: @Rob
    @That Would Be Telling

    Are you sure about childhood live attenuated viruses requiring multiple shots per disease? I thought MMR was a single shot. Googled, they recommend two doses for both infants and adults.


    From the CDC


    One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.

    Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.
     
    Arguendo covid were measles, having everyone 93% protected is better than having half of people 97% protected. I don’t know offhand, but I would bet the antibody response gears up faster with live attenuated.

    I think smallpox called for so frequent revaccination because it had a 30% death rate, but vaccination is (nearly) harmless.

    So far as I know, all the approved covid vaccines are intramuscular. An intramuscular vaccine is not going to generate a secretory IgA response in your respiratory tract. There’d have to be an oral/intranasal one, or at least a booster to get sterilizing immunity.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  • @Clyde
    @Rob


    The mRNA vaccines could be created a lot faster than a live-attenuated one could be created. With the mRNA ones, we knew that they could not revert to virulence. Live-attenuated vaccines need to be tested more thoroughly.
     
    Same as bad money drives out good money. We have gone down the crap vaxxx mRNA route forever. mRNA dominance means no US or European Pharma will spend the billions required to develop a traditional type vaccine for Covidxyz. The Chinese and Russian Covidxyz vaccines are not mRNA. But I read they have lower efficacy than the low efficacy mRNA ones.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Please define what you think a “traditional type vaccine” is.

    If we go by the name “vaccine” and what it originally was, a pox virus a lot less pathogenic than smallpox, then we’re talking attenuated viruses. While people have speculated this will be the Final Solution to the COVID Question, the problem is that these take a long time to develop unless nature hands us a strain or species like cowpox and vaccinia.

    So you have to take the real thing, remove its fangs, and prove the fangs won’t come back, as they can with the Sabin type polio vaccine if it passes through enough people (fecal->oral route).

    Are you really honestly going to tell me that people (like you?) who do not trust non-profits (Oxford), companies and governments for safe and effective COVID vaccines with newer technology will trust any attenuated virus vaccine developed, tested, and approved by these institutions? If you do I will laugh in your face.

    Next most traditional would be inactivated whole virus vaccines, which for COVID are not a stunning example of success with maybe 1-2 exceptions. The PRC ones are from the PRC, and one isn’t very effective. The one Western effort I’m familiar with from Valneva isn’t looking good, the U.K. was an early investor and has canceled their order; this might be due to insufficient funding to do a Phase III trail big enough for Western regulators. Trusting India for this sort of thing is iffy, but Bharat Biotech’s paper(s) on their’s looked good, including a response to the nucleocapid protein.

    After that is proteins and some other approaches that the like the above inactivated vaccines do their thing outside of cells, I’ve previously discussed how this approach hasn’t worked well for Sanofi Pasteur, Novavax or the Vector Institute.

    Viral vector vaccines are technology almost as new as mRNA and have not been a stunning success, Oxford’s is not very effective, Sputnik V’s second dose is very hard to make, Janssen is more effective than Oxford’s but is not great in the pandemic context if you can deliver multiple doses of another vaccine to your population. They’re fairly fast to market, and Oxford had a big advantage in starting for real, on the ground, a Phase I trial for a MERS vaccine, their second attempt, in the middle of December 2019. But their side effect profiles are not great, Oxford and blood clots, Janssen the same but at a lower rate, Sputnik V’s claim of absolutely no serious side effects ever is not credible.

    Leaving us with mRNA, which is very fast to market and easier to manufacture than stuff in cell cultures, which is every one of the above options except for Medicago making the spike protein in plants instead of bug cells. Now there’s preliminary efficacy results from them, might actually be good since they’re against the variants that followed classic Wuhan.

    Which of course also answers your complaint about “low efficacy” in mRNA vaccines, although I have no idea why you’re so sure we’re stuck with mRNA vaccines, or more importantly, the first generation of them. I mean, if another technology actually was head to head better than mRNA and had a good side effect profile it would be favored, and getting to Phase II trials where you can start to guess all of that doesn’t require “billions.”

    • Replies: @Rob
    @That Would Be Telling

    Replicon vaccines are in between mRNA and live-attenuated or vectored vaccines.

    Think of replicons as self-amplifying mRNA vaccines. They cannot revert to virulence. They are self-adjuvanting, though there’s no reason they couldn’t be delivered with another one.

    A replicon vax has a minimum of two open reading frames (the part of a DNA or RNA stretch that gets transcribed into an mRNA that is translated into protein) that can be on the same or separate RNAs.

    1) The antigen. For COVID, this would be the spike/modified spike/spike segment/spike frozen in prefusion conformation.

    2) The RNA-dependent RNA polymerase. Call it rdrp. This protein turns a few RNA molecules that get into the cell into a bunch of RNA molecules

    The RNA(s) that code(s) for the antigen and rdrp has segments at the beginning(5’) and end (3’) portions of the RNA that allow the rdrp to make positive-sense “genomes” negative sense “anti genomes,” and positive sense mRNA molecules that get translated into antigen and rdrp.

    The magic of this system is that fewer molecules need to enter a cell to get a lot of antigen. Most RNA viruses have a trick to hide double-stranded RNA (genome bonded to the anti genome) from the cells’ sentinel proteins. They wrap each in protein so they don’t associate. They replicate the second strand in a protein shell, they replicate the genome in membrane-enclosed spaces, there are ways I’m not thinking of, I am sure.

    Anyway, the replicon has none of that. It is just churning out dsRNA like a madman! That gets the cell in “danger Will Robinson! Danger!” mode. The cell tries to shut down protein synthesis, but the RNA has a structure that lets it produce antigen and rdrp with cellular protein synthesis down for the count.

    In addition to the cell being all, “Oh fuck, I gots me a virus. Time to die for the good of the organism.” It is signaling to its neighbors and the immune system that it has a virus synthesizing protein, so any protein that’s really common in the cell/attached to the membrane? That’s what we need to make an antibody for. It’s what T cells need to be activated by. The mRNA vaccines are not particularly immunogenic, that’s why it takes three shots (and counting) to get an adequate immune response.

    There is no danger of reversion because a replicon is not a virus. It has no way of getting its “genome” into nucleocapsid within a membrane. Coronavirus uses ~30 genes. The replicon has two.

    Some problems/difficulties:

    You can make your initial RNA(s) with non-natural mRNA bases like N1-methylpseudouridine, but that’s just one template mRNA molecule. The RNA synthesized in the cell is bog-standard ATGC bases.

    At some point, the cell saturates its protein or RNA synthesis capacity. Then more mRNA does not mean more antigen. The fact that it is still making rdrp now is unfortunate. That’s capacity that could be going into making antigen. This can be mitigated by putting the rdrp and antigen on separate molecules and fiddling with the concentrations, but every microparticle might have different ratios of the rdrp gene and antigen gene.

    The spike-like protein is what we want the immune response to focus on, but the rdrp is also a foreign antigen. We don’t want an immune response to this. It’s not as bad as an immune response to adenovirus vector capsids. The rdrp protein is not in the injected microparticle, that’s just RNA. Nevertheless, an immune reaction to the rdrp may interfere with the reaction to the spike-like antigen. Maybe this can be mitigated by finding common B cell epitopes in the rdrp and mutating them to make a less antigenic and hopefully less immunogenic protein. Ideally, we’d have either a very non-immunogenic rdrp or we’d have a series of distinct rdrp genes that we could use for booster shots.

    The good things

    1) RNA production is very similar to that of the current mRNA vaccines. Plasmid production in E. coli bioreactors followed by in vitro transcription of the RNA. Can even cap the first molecules if we like, but internal ribosome entry sites might be more efficient

    2) particle production is similar to mRNA vaccines. The “genomic” RNA(s) is larger than the current vaccines. There is also the matter of getting antigen and rdrp genes in acceptable ratios. But even variation could work to our advantage, but that takes testing.

    3) Dose-sparing. because the RNA amplifies in the “infected” cells, smaller initial doses can be used. This is a big deal. On the other hand, a large-ish dose can be used that would work in just one shot.

    4) More natural adjuvant activity from the dsRNA than from the cationic lipids that the current vaccines use.

    5) Does not need to be delivered in lipid nanoparticles. Packaging the RNA in a pseudoviral particle is possible. It’d enter the cell like a virus. Might allow easier storage, perhaps freeze-dried. No super cold freezers or vials that cannot be shaken.

    Vaccinology has been a very conservative for a long time. It’s not been exceptionally profitable for pharma. A single (or two or three) dose pharmaceutical that prevents a disease for a lifetime is the opposite of what drug companies want, drugs that treat a common condition and have to be taken for a lifetime.

    There’s a project that is trying to do open-source vaccines as a non-profit. https://radvac.org/ I wish them all the best, but I’m not sure what they want is possible. They say they have an intranasal peptide vaccine using chitosan as the adjuvant. I saw chitosan as an adjuvant in a paper a couple years ago. I know nothing about it, though.

    Would also like to point out that there are moderately good to very good mucosal adjuvants. Modes of Action for Mucosal Vaccine Adjuvants from 2017 is s good read. Some are even human proteins. They would likely get regulatory approval. Others are vaccines themselves. The entry protein subunit of cholera toxin is non-toxic and a good mucosal adjuvant. Cholera toxoid (a mutated, inactive version of cholera toxin is an approved vaccine, though not for intranasal use.

    I hope there is a project somewhere to take the crystal structures of all the viral attachment and fusion proteins that we have and work out which amino acids have bond angles that are allowed for proline but are not proline. Then, replace the current residue(s) with proline. They’d probably end up replacing ones that do not move very much from prefusion to fusion conformation, but they only need to get one vital one to disable the protein and make a good antigen.

    Replies: @ic1000, @That Would Be Telling

    , @Clyde
    @That Would Be Telling


    Please define what you think a “traditional type vaccine” is.
     
    All that came before the mRNA ones for Covid. You will probably tell me that there were mRNA vaccines used previously. If so, I hope they actually worked. To the average person like me, I never heard of mRNA before Covidxyz.

    The trad vaxxx route probably doesn't work for Corona viruses like Covidxyz and the common cold.

  • @BB753
    @HA

    Except nothing of the sort happened in Belarus, with just 5,574 deaths for a population of 9,439,233.

    Replies: @HA

    “Except nothing of the sort happened in Belarus, with just 5,574 deaths for a population of 9,439,233.”

    Let me get this straight. The just-a-flu bros won’t believe a virus exists even when it’s sequenced and photographed with a scanning electron microscope, and even when it’s studied and sliced and diced by researchers from Atlanta/Seoul/Moscow/TelAviv, but they have no problem swallowing official stats from Lukashenko?

    Well, there’s your answer: the Evan Neumann option. But if you do decide to follow through with it, I’d wait till winter is over before you head off to Minsk. In fact, you might want to stop a while in Sweden. I know the just-a-flu bros were hoping that was from whence their salvation comes, once not so long ago, but make sure they’re OK with you showing up — seems like they’re pretty gung-ho about vaccines over there. How quickly things change. Hopefully your Belarussian idols won’t have the same feet of clay the Swedish ones did.

    • Troll: BB753
    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @HA

    Let me get this straight. The just-a-flu bros won’t believe a virus exists even when it’s sequenced and photographed with a scanning electron microscope, and even when it’s studied and sliced and diced by researchers from Atlanta/Seoul/Moscow/TelAviv, but they have no problem swallowing official stats from Lukashenko?

    They actually have to believe that hundreds of labs around the globe are only pretending to sequence and submit variants.

    This means thousands of lab workers and scientists are all in on a global conspiracy to pretend that a virus exists. A virus we can look at with an electron microscope.

    I really don't see how Omicron fits into this conspiracy. The conspirators decided to fake a variant that just happens to correspond with a drop in hospitalization rates? Weren't hospitalization rates being intentionally exaggerated by the conspirators? Did the conspirators not meet on this?

    The reality is the virus is real, the vaccines work, and hundreds of thousands of anti-vaxxers currently have a nasty case of the flu and are not pretending to cough.

    Replies: @utu

  • @HA
    @Flying Dutchman

    "Actually that’s pretty much exactly what I think. I’d expect nothing more or less from the crime boss Fauci and his NIAID 'family'”.

    Got it. You don't believe in scanning electron microscope imagery because Fauci is a bad man. And because...Kepler, or something. Good to know where the line between the just-a-flu bros and the remaining 99% is drawn.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Flying Dutchman

    I would say it’s impressive that these people can’t grok the concept of false color as a visualization aid, but in general they’re so grossly ignorant of SCIENCE!!! and so resistant to actually learning anything new about it—two solid years into a pandemic!!!—that it’s actually the sort of thing I’ve come to expect. Without actually knowing science, and trying to critique it on it’s own terms which should be possible, they demand you do things on their own terms even when that’s physically impossible (“isolation of a pure virus”), while denying a great deal of established science, which again if it’s science can be falsified as for example global cooling and global warming were in turn.

    Whatever Galileo said to Kepler didn’t stick, nor did it for him and his contemporaries who insisted orbits were circles stick to the Church. Because while both were properly skeptical of epicycles et. al. (a word which to this day is a criticism of the “you appear to be going down the wrong path” type), the Church also knew the data didn’t fit circles (Kepler realized they were ellipses). That was the Church’s scientific issue with Galileo, his bigger crime was that he was a jerk in general and about this. Which we can observe is a tradition that continues to this day in so many who are wrong, or Not Even Wrong about COVID.

    • Thanks: HA
    • Replies: @utu
    @That Would Be Telling


    they’re so grossly ignorant of SCIENCE!!! and so resistant to actually learning anything new about it—two solid years into a pandemic!!!
     
    They operate in the pseudo-science paradigm where epistemology is subservient to hypotheses. But I would not discount possibility that many of them are trolls with no intent of learning and modifying their position. Look at Mr. Anon - his position about the validity of PCR tests has not changed.

    The skepticism and suspiciousness is natural and useful in moderation but it have been weaponized and raised to the rabid level when the anti-covid disinformation propaganda was launched with "just-the-flu", "no virus", "PCR tests fake" and then "masks not needed or do not work", "lockdowns not needed or do not work and harmful" and then going full anti-vaxx.

    Ron Unz has observed that early in the pandemic the right and the alt-right were pretty angry with China blaming it for the virus release but when the anti-covid disinformation propaganda was launched the right and the alt-right shifted its attention from China to Western governments as the culprits who imposed a massive psy-op on them by launching a non existent virus pandemic. Who would blame China if it is just the flu? But if it is just the flu you must blame Washington, Media, Bill Gates, Davos for the psy-op of false pandemic.

    https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/lifting-the-lockdown-easy-does-it/?showcomments#comment-3863472

    Based on the comments to that ZeroHedge article someone linked, it seems to have worked perfectly. The “China bioweapon” people at ZeroHedge are apparently getting totally swamped by the “It’s Just the Flu!!” people. After all, if It’s Just the Flu! how can anyone blame China?
     
    It is well know that China's soft power and her abilities in pushing their narrative in the West are very weak however Russia always was pretty good in disinformation games since the times of Okhrana and then KGB (*). There is no question that Russian media, bots and trolls were engaged in disinformation campaign form the very beginning of the pandemic. It is possible that the job of saving China's ass was outsourced to Lubyanka and for Russians it was just an extra motive to do what they love to do anyway (**).

    (*) See. Operation Infektion (wiki)

    (**) Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate (October 2018)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/
  • @Anonymous
    @Buckaroo


    And here I was thinking that it is eastern Massachusetts that can’t be topped for its Covidian cult/panic/insanity. I regularly see masked people jogging before 6am when I (on my bike) and they are the only human beings in a quarter mile radius. Do they think the virus works like radiation? The imbecillic and totalitarian requirement of masking outside went away last year so they are doing this voluntarily. Needless to say, during the day well over 80% of people on the streets of Boston are facediapered.
     
    In the middle of winter a lot of people have found out that facemasks perform the secondary function of keeping your face warm.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    In the middle of winter a lot of people have found out that facemasks perform the secondary function of keeping your face warm.

    Unfortunately, if you need to wear glasses they also tend to have a “side effect” of fogging them up….

    The thing I still can’t “get” is why so few on the Right didn’t realize how they make facial recognition harder. If we could have normalized wearing face masks when you feel sick like in Japan we would have struck a blow to partly counter the more fascist and unneeded non-pharmaceutical intervention (NPIs) various segments of our ruling trash imposed on us.

    • Agree: AKAHorace
  • @ic1000
    @megabar

    > it’s still difficult to come up with vaccines. You’d think it would be easy to generate candidate protein fragments and test that they safely trigger the immune system, yet provide sterilizing cross reactivity with real viruses... I wonder if the difficulty is our ability to generate the right mRNA, or if it’s that our immune systems have built-in limitations when dealing with certain viruses.

    You discuss two good frames of reference for thinking about this, Technology and Biology. A third that's useful is Process.

    In that regard, think of a vaccine as another prescription drug, like Prozac or Herceptin. The pharma company wants to market (and the doctor wants to prescribe) a product that will help certain patients with certain problems, without harming them in other ways.

    Help and harm are both key. About as many drug candidates are abandoned during the clinical trials process due to unexpected toxicity, as to failing to meet efficacy thresholds.

    There is a risk/reward calculation.
    * How important are the benefits, and what percentage of patients will get them?
    * How important are the harms, and what percentage of patients will experience those?

    The regulatory systems in the US, the EU, Japan, etc. are generally cautious about approving drugs that will harm people. They should be, as illustrated by thalidomide and Vioxx (see Ron Unz' article).

    Consider a drug candidate that's midway through clinical trials. There are all sorts of ways that it could deliver less in the way of real-world benefits, than early trial results would suggest. There are also all sorts of ways that it could cause greater real-world harm.

    For a spherical cow example of the latter, consider a fairly rare mutation, M (1 in 1,000 people carry this allele). Exposure to a clinical dose of drug D is wonderfully helpful to everybody with condition C. But people with condition C and mutation M also experience a fatal heart attack when exposed to drug D.

    If the pharma company enrolls two Phase 3 trials, and each one treats 300 patients with D, the odds that this drastic side effect will be missed are about 40%. If D was to be approved and prescribed to a million patients, that'd be 1,000 excess deaths due to this side effect.

    End of cow.

    Getting back to Process: even with fantastic tools, human biology is complex, and it's difficult or impossible to quantitatively estimate the frequency and severity of harm that a new drug may cause within a diverse patient population. (Thus the high rate of candidate failures due to toxicity.)

    This is one big reason why drug development takes so long and is so expensive (there are also others). Pharmas don't (shouldn't) want to market drugs that do more harm than good. Since it's human nature for people to be greedy, act carelessly, and succumb to groupthink, regulators should have the resources, the time, and the authority to protect the public interest.

    Heart attacks have been around forever, but SARS-CoV-2 has not. Developed countries' regulatory processes aren't well-suited for responding to a pandemic. As this thread illustrates, one set of thoughtful voices calls for speed (and the probability of beneficial drugs reaching patients and saving lives). Another set of thoughtful voices calls for caution (and the probability of detecting and understanding drugs' adverse effects before exposing the public to them).

    Both perspectives are valid. In hindsight, if good data becomes available, it should be clear who was "right," in this instance.

    Replies: @Jack D, @megabar, @That Would Be Telling, @Rob

    The problem with creating sterilizing immunity is that intramuscular injection, the easiest route to go with an injected vaccine, does not cause secretory IgA antibodies in the respiratory tract.

    So, why not just do an intranasal vaccine? Non-replicating, generally meaning non-live-attenuated, intranasal vaccines do not induce much secretory IgA, either.

    The mRNA vaccines could be created a lot faster than a live-attenuated one could be created. With the mRNA ones, we knew that they could not revert to virulence. Live-attenuated vaccines need to be tested more thoroughly.

    There are couple-few intranasal and oral covid vaccines being tested, I don’t know if any are in phase III trials yet.

    If they are approved, i strongly suggest getting one, even if you’ve already had mRNA + boosters. If the virus cannot get a foothold in you, the chance that it’s going to do you any harm is exremely low.

    • Thanks: ic1000
    • Replies: @Clyde
    @Rob


    The mRNA vaccines could be created a lot faster than a live-attenuated one could be created. With the mRNA ones, we knew that they could not revert to virulence. Live-attenuated vaccines need to be tested more thoroughly.
     
    Same as bad money drives out good money. We have gone down the crap vaxxx mRNA route forever. mRNA dominance means no US or European Pharma will spend the billions required to develop a traditional type vaccine for Covidxyz. The Chinese and Russian Covidxyz vaccines are not mRNA. But I read they have lower efficacy than the low efficacy mRNA ones.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  • @Mr. Anon
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Almost all infections, nevermind reinfections, at the time and in the place were due to Omicron, and both I, and my close friend, were reinfections who caught it together. It is all but a statistical certainty.
     
    But how was that deterimined? The standard tests don't test which particular variant a strain might be. What is the basis of these determinations? You said yourself you just assumed it was Omicron because everyone else had Omicron. How do they know? Maybe they just assumed they had it too.

    Public health authorities (most of whom are not really scientists) just spew a bunch of stuff with - well, authority - and people believe it. They seldom give any justification for it. I've yet to see Anthony Fauci or any of his ilk even present so much as a brief power-point showing any data. They just invoke "The Science" and expect us to believe. How do we know that a lot of what they say isn't just a load of crap?

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    I sort of understand your cynicism. Certainly, at the beginning of the pandemic, the authorities got a lot of things wrong about Covid, but that’s because it was a new disease and the situation required them to nonetheless project confidence in order to reduce panic.

    The thing is that, by now, Covid is one of the most studied phenomena in human history, coming close behind HIV, the Holocaust, 9/11, the assassination of JFK, IQ tests and more*, and so the expert consensus is generally very good, and certainly excellent considering how hard it is to understand something that is constantly changing and with which you cannot conduct easy laboratory experiments of infecting people on purpose.

    Specifically, as regards believing the consensus on Omicron, the UK conducts a wildly disproportionate number of the global viral genetic tests. This is a complicated process but one that is long-established as effective, and the labs are not part of any sort of conspiracy. They are staffed by ordinary people in civilian jobs, some of whom I have met. I trust them fine.

    However, for confirmation, I also know doctors in a few countries, and have read of more, who have seen different symptoms appear as the Omicron wave has hit. They noticed this independently and would find it ludicrous if someone disagreed.

    On top of that, both those medical staff, and ordinary people I know, have hit the first wave of reinfection. Many of the doctors, who first got Covid at the beginning, suddenly got it again only once Omicron was established, and I had the same experience, as did a close friend.

    In this way, from personal experience, to those of familial and intimate relations, to those of professionals I know, to global scientific consensus, both as reported directly, and through the better newspaper articles, I can be as sure of these things as I can be sure of anything.

    And if wrong, I am in no place to even begin to know.

    *Yes, I am being intentionally provocative, but it is a good point. Far too many people pick these subjects, convince themselves of their arguments, test it against complete amateurs whom they “defeat” as anyone would by their obsessiveness, and declare themselves “right.” Which is like reading about football every day, always “winning” arguments at the pub with your far wider knowledge, but then thinking that you know more than the actual managers, or even close to what they know, which is completely ridiculous. The first part is a fun intellectual game, but the second part, if performed only earnestly, betrays a common character flaw, though I am not sure exactly what to call it?

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling, HA
    • Replies: @AKAHorace
    @Triteleia Laxa


    Far too many people pick these subjects, convince themselves of their arguments, test it against complete amateurs whom they “defeat” as anyone would by their obsessiveness, and declare themselves “right.” Which is like reading about football every day, always “winning” arguments at the pub with your far wider knowledge, but then thinking that you know more than the actual managers, or even close to what they know, which is completely ridiculous. The first part is a fun intellectual game, but the second part, if performed only earnestly, betrays a common character flaw, though I am not sure exactly what to call it?
     
    It is a bit the way SJWs always imagine themselves facing down Bull Connor or the Brownshirts when they persecute academics or pull down confederate statues. A lot of people on the right want to see everything as a one world conspiracy. A lot of overlap with 9-11 and JFK nutcases.
    , @Peterike
    @Triteleia Laxa

    “ The thing is that, by now, Covid is one of the most studied phenomena in human history, coming close behind HIV, the Holocaust, 9/11, the assassination of JFK, IQ tests and more*, and so the expert consensus is generally very good, and”

    That’s the funniest, and stupidest, thing I’ve ever read.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @Triteleia Laxa

    All I can take away from that is...............that you really don't know, nor does anyone.

    There is some genetic testing of certain cases that indicate a different strain. Fine. But that is only done in certain cases. For everyone else, they're getting the same PCR or anti-body test that people were getting a year ago or more that does not differentiate between strains. And yet everything is said to be Omicron.

    People are now suddenly coming down with a respiratory illness that is different than the previous version of COVID. Different how? Less severe symptoms? Couldn't that just be due to people having greater immunity against it, because they've already been exposed

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    , @Anonymous
    @Triteleia Laxa


    The thing is that, by now, Covid is one of the most studied phenomena in human history, coming close behind HIV, the Holocaust
     
    “The Holocaust” isn’t well studied. It isn’t allowed to be studied. You can be jailed for studying it. And all of the alleged death camps somehow ended up behind the Iron Curtain after the war ended.

    Replies: @John Johnson

  • Rob says:
    @ic1000
    @Rob

    Rob, I do think your rebuttal of the conventional wisdom regarding "viruses get milder" isn't convincing.

    > the teleology! “The virus wants…” No! Bad biologist! Bad!

    Maybe cut them some slack. 'Everybody' knows what you are getting at. It's easier to convey concepts this way, although it can lead to misinterpretations. Usually, longer discussions include a demurral, "viruses are inanimate, this language is a shorthand."

    The infecting respiratory-virus virion will turn into a "cloud" if it's able to infect the host. Members of the cloud will have zero to a few mutations, thus will be identical or very closely related to the original. The original virion turns out to be "successful," the more its descendants infect other hosts that beget other "clouds" and so forth.

    So the point remains that, all else being equal, a virion whose descendant "cloud" causes its host to experience mild symptoms (sniffling, coughing, sneezing) for a prolonged period of time will generally be more successful than one that causes its host to die quickly.

    Whether the host recovers, or dies slowly after spending time sniffling, coughing, and sneezing -- that should be a matter of indifference to the virus (I'm being humorous by imputing motive to the microscopic agent).

    Host-virus interactions and the countermeasures taken by the host immune system constrain the theoretical "strategies" the virus can employ. But I don't think it changes the fundamental picture.

    Replies: @Rob

    Cloud is just a metaphor for quasispecies diversity. There is no necessary center to a cloud that no genome can get too far from. The fact remains that within an infection, there is a selection for spreading better within that host. This happens even though it is not in the best interest of the virus. There is “fecundity” selection inside every cell. Maybe the fact that you shed virus for a while before the immune response kicks in is a clue to this. “The” virus benefits from having you walking around and shedding virus, but within you, the selection favors increased reproduction, which means increased virulence.

    If temperature in the lungs restricts it from infecting the lower respiratory tract, that’s pretty easy to evolve around. We can select viruses that replicate well at lower temperatures quite readily. I’m not sure if anyone has tried to select viruses that have higher temperature cutoffs than the wild type. Mammalian cell cultures don’t grow well at around 41 °C. While temperature sensitivity, meaning heat intolerance, is easy to select or intentionally modify in a protein. High thermal tolerance is harder to get. The most effective way is to reduce the number of conformations the unfolded state has, reducing the entropy gain when the protein unfolds. That is harder to do, as the best way to do it requires cysteines in the right places so that the disulfide bridges constrain it when unfolded. That requires paired mutations in places that don’t interfere with the folded state. Hard to evolve. But, most proteins are only marginally stable. This makes sense because once it is, say, 99.9% folded there is little fitness to be gained by being more stable, so it really cannot evolve to be more stable, implying that small improvements in thermostability are probably easier to evolve by selection at high temperature if you are only looking for improvements of a few degrees at reasonably low temperatures, say, under 40 °C.

    [MORE]

    I found a paper about selecting a phage for thermotolerance during storage. They got a big effect on tolerating high storage temperature. Cited other papers showing phage adaptation to higher temperatures. It all suggests an experimental setup. Create multiple, individually genetically uniform e coli cultures with a thermal gradient. Infect the cool end with the phage. Incubate for a while, then spread to new setups drawing from the cool end of the cultures. See if later passages have the same ability to evolve thermotolerance. For extra work, one could only passage from phage infections that did not evolve thermotolerance. In these experiments, the cell cultures in thermal gradients correspond to the respiratory tract, passage corresponds to interhost transmission from less-severely ill hosts, and the second+ round of cultures are the new hosts. Think of it also as investigating the evolution of evolvability. Can you select phages that are less evolvable in just a few passages? An improved experiment would have fluid moving from the warm end to the cool end, analogous to mucus.

    Consider HIV. It can take years to kill people, so it could keep its hosts alive longer. It would benefit from not killing people at all. If I recall correctly, the macrophage-tropic version is more infectious interhost than the T cell-infectious version, but most HIV in infected people is T cell-tropic because that’s what intrahost evolution favors. New infections seem to be started by an effective population size of 1-10 virions, so adaptations could be lost.

    I have read that myxomatosis, the virus that was released in Australia to control the rabbit population did not evolve to be less virulent, the rabbits evolved resistance, but in a quick Google search, I could not find the paper. Regardless, if I remember correctly, the death rate of the rabbits went from ~99% to ~30%, but 30% is still a really high death rate.

    But not every cold turns deadly. Most do not, but why? In nursing homes colds are deadly, that’s mostly due to immunosenescence, but maybe colds are effectively a vector-borne disease in nursing homes? Nurses and aides can spread the disease even though patients are very sick. I wonder if people who work at nursing homes get much more severe colds than other people do?!? That’d be really interesting. Maybe see whether their spouses or also do. Check them out because people who work at nursing homes probably get exposed to high doses of viruses.

    Viruses not being deadly by their evolution is pretty much disproved by all of our anti-viral adaptations. From all the interferons to all the interferon regulatory factors, all the interferon-regulated genes, each one of these is an adaptation. From the origin of each protein to crafting the proteins in intricate interactions… The toll-like receptors are not there just for fun. All told, these are probably thousands of adaptations. They are probably not there to keep you from feeling cruddy for a week.

    Here’s a potential test: are diseases milder in Mexico and the rest of Latin America? They have lots of Indians with less-capable immune systems. Have respiratory viruses in Latin America evolved to be less virulent? When yanks go to Mexico and pick up a cold, is it milder than colds here?

    There’s a hypothesis that the mild and people co-evolved. I saw it on Peter Frost’s blog, but i don’t know if he’s the creator. The idea is that mild respiratory infections up-regulate anti-pathogen defenses and make people more resistant to serious infections like tuberculosis. This is not insane. I don’t have a problem with the idea of co-evolution, but I have trouble seeing how it works. Mutualism requires a way of punishing defectors, which I guess could be the antiviral responses killing cells infected with fast-reproducing viruses more quickly, leading to more virulent genomes replicating less. I think it is possible that people utilized “mild” respiratory viruses to up-regulate defenses. Sort of the way the body uses environmental stress to keep muscles strong rather than just keeping muscle mass high through endogenous factors. It also depends on the frequency of co-infection. If two different genotypes tend to share a cell’s resources, intracellular selection favors the faster-replicating one.

    Here’s an example of the way evolution works that does favor “the infection.” Have you ever read about defective interfering particles? They were discovered in cell culture, but have been detected in real infections in vivo. DIPs are partial genomes. They have the packaging sequence, so they are encapsidated just like regular genomes. They have the cis features for replication, but they are missing vital genes, so they cannot complete the viral “life”-cycle. DIP genomes are shorter, so they are replicated faster than complete genomes, depriving full genomes of a vital resource. Then they are packaged in pro-capsids/nucleocapsids, stealing yet another resource. Finally, when packaged and released from the cell, they compete for binding the cellular receptor proteins, depriving full genomes of entry into cells, yet another part of the means of replication. If the DIP is the only “virus” in the cell, then that cell does not release any virus. Depending on the DIP, it may not even make viral proteins. It certainly won’t release infectious virus.

    Some viruses have either evolved to not produce DIPs or just don’t produce them because of their lifestyle. Viral DIPs make infections milder. Is the tendency to produce DIPs an adaptation of the viruses to make infections milder? Maybe?

    Lastly, one must consider that hosts are not adapted to new viruses very well. Perhaps new ones kill off the people who lack an important antiviral defense, and then the survivors are better suited to survive the virus? This was a hypothesis the “let ‘er rip” people had, though they did think in evolutionary terms, just in environmental terms like killing old people.

    If viruses actually do evolve to become milder, then lockdown-style measures might ve more reasonable than one might think. At one extreme, if one person gets the virus and directly infects everyone in the world, then the transmission chain length is one. In that case, the virus does not have a chance to evolve to be benign. At the other extreme, if the virus daisy-chains and each infected person infects one other person until everyone in the world had been infected, then the average length of the transmission chain is, um, left as an exercise for the reader (yeah, that’s the ticket!) and the virus has lots of opportunities to evolve into mildness before everyone has been infected.

    The disease was so bad back in the day, maybe each one of the 160 or rhinovirus serotypes killed 1% of the population every time it hit the “virgin soil” of a naive population. Who would be able to tell? Interestingly, old accounts of disease often do not match any modern disease. Perhaps they had “weird” symptoms because the people who had symptoms like that from the disease left very few descendants to show those symptoms today. Likely, analogous things happened to people in Africa/Eurasia over thousands of years that happened to American Indians over hundreds of years.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Rob
    @Rob

    Should add that the paired-cysteine thermostabilizing thing only applies to extracellular proteins. The inside of a cell is reducing and replaces the S—S bond with S—H bonds. A polymerase would not be stabilized by disulfide bridges.

    Nevertheless, found a dissertation about an enterovirus that used to not be very bad, but then started causing more serious disease. The modern one replicated better at 37 °C than its predecessors, so tolerance from 32 °C to 37 °C is evolvable. The difference was not just in the internal ribosomal entry site.

    I want to say that a decent chunk of viral pneumonia is caused by thermotolerant rhinovirus. So, even “innocuous” rhinoviruses can evolve to be deadlier.

    , @ic1000
    @Rob

    > Cloud is just a metaphor for quasispecies diversity. There is no necessary center to a cloud that no genome can get too far from. The fact remains that within an infection, there is a selection for spreading better within that host. This happens even though it is not in the best interest of the virus. There is “fecundity” selection inside every cell. Maybe the fact that you shed virus for a while before the immune response kicks in is a clue to this. “The” virus benefits from having you walking around and shedding virus, but within you, the selection favors increased reproduction, which means increased virulence.

    OK, but... you have just proven that viruses don't evolve towards delivering milder disease. And yet, they (often) do. This doesn't mean that your reasoning is wrong, it's an indication that biological reality is more complex, and that other effects and interactions (often) dominate.

    Temperature effects -- interesting; that is only one possible reason for varied trophism to upper or lower respiratory tract. For humans, the top temperature would be about 37 C.

    Nastiness of colds: Agree that it's hard to distinguish innate virulence from virulence as displayed in the context of different immune systems (prior priming or general activation).

    Back to SARS-CoV-2, there was a 2020 analysis of two pairs of young healthy brothers in the Netherlands. After infection, all four got very sick, and one of each pair died. On sequencing their genomes, each family had a rare mutation in an innate immune system protein, a TLR accessory protein in one case. Something's different this time; these families didn't have histories of being laid low by the endemic coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, RSVs, etc. I suspect such (mostly) silent rare mutations explain a fair amount of individual variability in Covid susceptibility and severity.

    DIPs, thanks for the heads-up.

    First exposure of naive populations to novel respiratory viruses: You've probably read Charles Mann's accounts of the Columbian Exchange, e.g. 1492. Influenza devastated New World peoples, with mortality of (who knows?) 25% to 95%. By definition, contemporary Amerinds are descended from individuals who had immune systems that could survive the encounters.

    > If viruses actually do evolve to become milder, then lockdown-style measures might've more reasonable than one might think.

    Yeah... amusingly, the lockdownites made the opposite argument at the same time. Lockdowns were going to prevent spread and endemicity, and thus prevent the baddie mutations from having the opportunities to occur. To me, that says that us humans are pretty good about drawing convincing word pictures, but biological processes are often messier and more counterintuitive than we like to believe.

    We probably agree on that.

  • @Alrenous
    @Clyde

    D3 also mitigates body odour. Now I'm used to having proper D3 levels, if I slack off I get back cramps.

    You don't really need to get tested. Just take 10,000 until you stop getting infections. Once you're there, guess whether you can take less. You're probably right. If you're not, you'll get a bit sick with something, (or get a back cramp?) and you'll learn you need to go back up.

    I get dry knuckles if I don't also take omega-3. I could also do the grass-fed beef thing, but in my area that takes more effort than I'm willing to go to. Purely a cosmetic issue, though. Turns out the cause of a farmer's gnarling is high levels of vitamin D. Pulls cholesterol out of the skin because it's not desperately trying to fish for vitamin D anymore.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    You don’t really need to get tested. Just take 10,000 [IU of D3] until you stop getting infections.

    At the very least you need to get your calcium blood and/or urine levels checked because too much Vitamin D can cause a variety of problems. If you want to get started without checking for a while, I’d go with a more modest 2,000 to 5,000 IU, although depending on how deficient you are, and you almost certainly are, there is of course a premium on getting up to a good level right now ASAP.

    • Replies: @Alrenous
    @That Would Be Telling

    https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/10/3596
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210929/

    Replies: @HA

    , @Clyde
    @That Would Be Telling

    D3 toxicity is highly overrated and mostly bs. It is very, very rare. With high dose D3 you must take K2 and a magnesium supplement. Why? Go look it up if you are curious.

  • @fredtard
    @El Dato

    Some "dogmas" are more common-sense than others. Very sick people that don't die don't mingle and disseminate pathogens much: they're in bed. Which is why common sense dictates that non-sterilizing "vaccines" that merely reduce symptoms increased asymptomatic transmission of covid. Whether that was an unintended consequence or intentional, well, who can read minds?

    I hadn't heard that "...it came from mice." If you have a source, I'd be interested. Thanks.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    One of the many curious things about Omicron is per this December 2021 Science article:

    Omicron clearly did not develop out of one of the earlier variants of concern, such as Alpha or Delta. Instead, it appears to have evolved in parallel—and in the dark. Omicron is so different from the millions of SARS-CoV-2 genomes that have been shared publicly that pinpointing its closest relative is difficult, says Emma Hodcroft, a virologist at the University of Bern. It likely diverged early from other strains, she says. “I would say it goes back to mid-2020.”

    That raises the question of where Omicron’s predecessors lurked for more than a year. Scientists see essentially three possible explanations: The virus could have circulated and evolved in a population with little surveillance and sequencing. It could have gestated in a chronically infected COVID-19 patient. Or it might have evolved in a nonhuman species, from which it recently spilled back into people.

    The mice theory for that nonhuman species explanation was per Wikipedia advanced in this paper, two key sentences in its abstract are:

    The molecular spectrum of mutations (i.e., the relative frequency of the 12 types of base substitutions) acquired by the progenitor of Omicron was significantly different from the spectrum for viruses that evolved in human patients but resembled the spectra associated with virus evolution in a mouse cellular environment. Furthermore, mutations in the Omicron spike protein significantly overlapped with SARS-CoV-2 mutations known to promote adaptation to mouse hosts, particularly through enhanced spike protein binding affinity for the mouse cell entry receptor.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @That Would Be Telling

    So, Omicron is definitely not man-made. - Right?

  • I was watching the Wall Street Journal Editorial Report, when a News Alert cut into the 60-minute program, around 1/3 through. I lost the remaining 2/3 of this superb program to the hostage coverage. (except for the final 2 minutes at the end). The hostage coverage consisted of a camera focused on a police SUV with flashing lights, in the synagogue parking lot. It would be an anti-semitic hate crime not to devote 40 minutes to the SUV’s flashing lights, I guess.

    • Replies: @restless94110
    @SafeNow

    The same happened at Fox. I was watching Watters World's last show (he's going to weeknights) and 10 minutes in or so there's this footage of a car and a couple of cops and this endless narration. That was it for the whole show.

    Then when Judge Jeanine came on,the nonsense footage continued all through her show except she participated in it.

    5 minutes into this crap, I started thinking: this rates 2-sentence mention and then back to regularly scheduled programming. Why do we care what another nut with a gun is doing in some synagogue somewhere????????

    I could care less what the guy is, and all the best to the hostages. Now I want to see Jesse's last weekend show.

  • As in Johannesburg a few weeks ago, new cases of the Omicron covid variant are now falling in New York City, with this Friday's number of new cases a little under half of last Friday's. Moreover, ICU's are not particularly packed, at least not yet: e.g., NYU's medical center has 65 ICU beds empty. The...
  • @megabar
    @ic1000

    I don't disagree with anything you wrote, and I appreciate the thoughtful response.

    Yet, to my knowledge, no tests of a sterilizing vaccine have been undertaken. If they have, the rest of my comment here can be discarded, and your comment would be explanatory.

    But if they haven't, then we're back to the fact that candidate vaccines haven't been found. If we exclude conspiratorial reasons for why this is, then we're left with (a) nobody thought it was worth the work to do so (i.e. the existing vaccines are good enough given the costs of doing a test), or (b) it's much harder than I think to generate candidate vaccines.

    I think the potential $$$ of a new sterilizing vaccine are tremendous, so I'm skeptical of (a).

    I realize biology is quite messy, and that complexity can rapidly overwhelm even seemingly infinite compute power. But the number of interactions to generate candidates strike as rather more finite, and tractable.

    Yet here we are. So, clearly I'm wrong. What's interesting to me is why I'm wrong.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Yet, to my knowledge, no tests of a sterilizing vaccine have been undertaken.

    AZ/Oxford did try with a small subset of Phase III test subjects giving them weekly tests. But that’s high touch, expensive, and the proxy of not getting symptomatic illness was used for other Western vaccines and most testing of Oxford, excepting the one jab version of Janssen which was never intended to be sterilizing although that was a secondary endpoint after the primary of preventing serious disease.

    In theory we would have deduced how good these were in sterilizing in Phase IV post marketing, but Alpha started roaming the earth about the time any of these vaccines were ready to be tried on the general population. And no one sees a pressing need quite yet for a reformulation of these first generation vaccines.

    I would expect that’ll change if and when significantly new variants stop popping up. For now the mitigations they deliver are considered to be good enough. To address your specific points:

    (a) Is addressed above in part. I’d add that requiring weekly swabbing—how far into your upper respiratory system, and how far for classic Wuhan through Delta vs. Omicron?—is going to cause people to drop out of your trial. And I’d say it what happened was, based on the years of research into making effective and safe SARS type coronavirus vaccines, each organization or company making the best vaccine they could (some did try out more than one candidate). If it turned out to be sterilizing, great! If not, well, they’ve still prevented a lot of bad outcomes.

    (b) Different candidates are easy to make with modern biotech, but testing them on animals and humans is another matter. How good are our mouse models with one or more humanized systems for example? Non-human primates are expensive and if your goal is to determine how well the vaccine works on a naive subject, they’re “used up” for the purposes of COVID testing after their first exposure, they’d be like most of us with prior vaccine and/or natural immunity.

    As for biology in general, maybe look into how the body can make millions of different antibodies from many many fewer genes, including antibodies against things which have never previously existed on earth. The latter factoid convinced me in the 1970s to learn about the immune system on an “as needed” basis, and there’s still a lot we don’t understand about it. Since this is what we trigger to react to a vaccine….

    Mostly, though, I’d say Omicron put a spike into your ambitions and showed the conservative approach all the organizations in question took was wise. For example a proven sterilizing vaccine for Delta would be of very little use by now.

    • Thanks: megabar
  • @ic1000
    @megabar

    > it’s still difficult to come up with vaccines. You’d think it would be easy to generate candidate protein fragments and test that they safely trigger the immune system, yet provide sterilizing cross reactivity with real viruses... I wonder if the difficulty is our ability to generate the right mRNA, or if it’s that our immune systems have built-in limitations when dealing with certain viruses.

    You discuss two good frames of reference for thinking about this, Technology and Biology. A third that's useful is Process.

    In that regard, think of a vaccine as another prescription drug, like Prozac or Herceptin. The pharma company wants to market (and the doctor wants to prescribe) a product that will help certain patients with certain problems, without harming them in other ways.

    Help and harm are both key. About as many drug candidates are abandoned during the clinical trials process due to unexpected toxicity, as to failing to meet efficacy thresholds.

    There is a risk/reward calculation.
    * How important are the benefits, and what percentage of patients will get them?
    * How important are the harms, and what percentage of patients will experience those?

    The regulatory systems in the US, the EU, Japan, etc. are generally cautious about approving drugs that will harm people. They should be, as illustrated by thalidomide and Vioxx (see Ron Unz' article).

    Consider a drug candidate that's midway through clinical trials. There are all sorts of ways that it could deliver less in the way of real-world benefits, than early trial results would suggest. There are also all sorts of ways that it could cause greater real-world harm.

    For a spherical cow example of the latter, consider a fairly rare mutation, M (1 in 1,000 people carry this allele). Exposure to a clinical dose of drug D is wonderfully helpful to everybody with condition C. But people with condition C and mutation M also experience a fatal heart attack when exposed to drug D.

    If the pharma company enrolls two Phase 3 trials, and each one treats 300 patients with D, the odds that this drastic side effect will be missed are about 40%. If D was to be approved and prescribed to a million patients, that'd be 1,000 excess deaths due to this side effect.

    End of cow.

    Getting back to Process: even with fantastic tools, human biology is complex, and it's difficult or impossible to quantitatively estimate the frequency and severity of harm that a new drug may cause within a diverse patient population. (Thus the high rate of candidate failures due to toxicity.)

    This is one big reason why drug development takes so long and is so expensive (there are also others). Pharmas don't (shouldn't) want to market drugs that do more harm than good. Since it's human nature for people to be greedy, act carelessly, and succumb to groupthink, regulators should have the resources, the time, and the authority to protect the public interest.

    Heart attacks have been around forever, but SARS-CoV-2 has not. Developed countries' regulatory processes aren't well-suited for responding to a pandemic. As this thread illustrates, one set of thoughtful voices calls for speed (and the probability of beneficial drugs reaching patients and saving lives). Another set of thoughtful voices calls for caution (and the probability of detecting and understanding drugs' adverse effects before exposing the public to them).

    Both perspectives are valid. In hindsight, if good data becomes available, it should be clear who was "right," in this instance.

    Replies: @Jack D, @megabar, @That Would Be Telling, @Rob

    You do an excellent job of laying out many of the constraints in drug and biologic development in answering megabar’s question. Let me fill in what gaps I can:

    [MORE]

    All successful Western COVID vaccines so far, not including Novavax which got its first major regulatory body action on December 20th by the EU, are what I’ve labeled as “active” vaccines. All in this class starting with the very first of cowpox for smallpox are means to the end of arranging for some mRNA to direct the manufacturing of viral proteins in cells inside your body. After that, like other proteins a cell makes, bits of them are presented on the surface of the cell.

    The two adaptive immune systems recognize some of these as “not self” unlike the bits from normal proteins (the cells that would recognize “self” are weeded out before being released into the wild of your body, and autoimmune diseases come from failures in that although these system will also recognize stuff not presented per the above link), and they develop tailored responses based on recognizing these “epitopes.”

    There are a number of reasons to do things this way. In 20/20 hindsight just presenting a version of the spike protein to the body outside of cells like we do for most flu vaccines has not so far worked out for vaccine giant Sanofi, that includes one major mistake made in their first effort prior to doing a Phase III trial, and something went horribly wrong for Novavax. But this vaccine is in theory fairly easy to make, transfect bug cells in huge vats with a bug virus containing DNA coding for a (stabilized) spike protein, harvest and purify, for COVID add an adjuvant, bottle, test and ship. And they don’t need freezing.

    Next in success are the three adenovirus vector vaccines. There you take a human or for Oxford chimpanzee virus, delete its genes that code for immune system evasion, and replace a set of genes by which it replicates itself with the DNA for the spike protein. Manufacturing is like the above but with human cells, to which a plasmid, a loop of DNA, has been added that has the above snipped out replication genes. The injected viruses hijack cells and their DNA is used as a template to make mRNA which then makes stabilized spike proteins inside the cell.

    There’s a number of issues with this approach: immune system responses to the vector itself, perhaps from previous infections which is why Oxford used a virus gleaned from chimpanzee feces, there’s a lot of baggage along with the payload, which per one paper appears to be a cause of Oxford’s clotting problems, and of course Janssen has a known problem there. Per the CDC there’s a 3.8 in a million rate of a serious type of that. Raw numbers are 17.7 million doses given in the US, 57 correlated cases of the syndrome with nine deaths confirmed to be caused by the vaccine.

    And these vaccines aren’t super easy to make, huge vats of human cells outside the body are pretty sensitive, not sure about bug cells but neither will be as robust as E. Coli. I think Janssen has been significantly limited by production problems, Sputnik V’s second dose which uses a different adenovirus than the first and Janssen’s is largely unobtanium, and AZ, which had never made vaccines before had a lot of problems getting up to whatever speed they’re at (although the EU didn’t help). And there’s ethical issues with the source of the human cells they’re grown in, especially Janssen’s which definitely came from an elective abortion.

    mRNA vaccines cut out the middleman of a virus vector, are lipids protecting mRNA coding for a (stabilized) spike protein. And thus they’re simple, and for manufacturing the only step using organisms uses the workhorse E. Coli, a bacteria happy to grow in a vat. Everything after that is in vitro. On the other hand they produce age weighted towards the young heart and heart lining inflammation, myocarditis and pericarditis, this needs to be figured out.

    megabar’s idea of protein fragments is being tried by the Vector Institute in Russia, but as far as I can imagine it would be harder to manufacture than the above three types. And does depend on your picking out N fragments, three for Vector that’ll make good epitopes, maybe more than one per fragment that the immune system will recognize and “not self.” There’s a good chance this effort wasn’t very successful. In the longer term as we learn more about the virus I’d expect better chances, and we might be there now.

    • Thanks: ic1000
  • @Jack D
    @ic1000

    The risk/reward calculus has to be different between a "nice to have" drug like Vioxx, where there were safer alternatives of the same type available, and a vaccine needed to stem a deadly pandemic.

    There is no doubt that the Covid vaccines will cause harm in rare cases - as you say, it's almost impossible to do a big enough drug trial to catch rare side effects. We know that certain sensitive individuals will drop dead if you give them something that for most people is a perfectly harmless and wholesome substance (such as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich).

    But the whole point is that the side effects are rare and the vaccines have saved many more lives than they have taken. Unless people start dropping like flies ANY DAY NOW like the anti-vaxxers say (which ain't gonna happen) they have already proven their safety and efficacy.

    Replies: @ic1000

    > But the whole point is that the side effects are rare and the [SARS-CoV-2] vaccines have saved many more lives than they have taken.

    This is undoubtedly true, overall.

    As ‘everybody’ knows, the risks of Covid (death, severe illness, long Covid) are higher for people who are older, and for people who are in poorer health. It follows that the older and the sicker one is, the greater is the benefit-to-cost ratio.

    Reliable numbers are hard to come by, especially as the situation keeps changing. As a wild guess, the odds for a 30-year-old who is healthy (not obese, not diabetic, etc.) might be 10x in favor of vaccination, perhaps rising to 100x for a healthy 70-year-old. The presence of risk factors (comorbidities) would raise the odds even higher, in favor of vaccination.

    Given the overall mildness of Covid symptoms — in general — to healthy children, teens, and (perhaps) twentysomethings, I am not confident in comparing the benefits and risks of three courses of vaccination for these groups. In particular, healthy men ~16-25 have a non-negligible increase in severe myocarditis after the third (booster) dose. One or two doses may be a better choice for them. [Edit: TWBT argues against the efficacy of one Pfizer dose, immediately upthread.]

    It’s a numbers question. I’ve looked for them, but not hard enough to point to sources that are relevant and trustworthy.

    Links and references appreciated.

  • @That Would Be Telling
    @Sean


    The longer it is in an infected person and the more people it is in, then the more chance of a viable variant mutation happening, so there are reasons to think we have not seen the last of it.
     
    Right you are.

    We're pretty sure all of Alpha, Delta, and Omicron were brewed up in individual humans who didn't throw it off quickly. This is especially likely for Beta and Omicron, both first discovered in the south of Africa where HIV is endemic. The theory is that an ecological battle occurs inside that single body and the patient transmits to others a significantly more competitive variant of the virus, the "winner" that turned out to be more "fit" than the previous dominant variant.

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    The theory is that an ecological battle occurs inside that single body and the patient transmits to others a significantly more competitive variant of the virus, the “winner” that turned out to be more “fit” than the previous dominant variant.

    That sounds more like a noghtmare than a theory, TWBT.

    – Why not asshume ( Dr. John Campbell), that Omikron will turn Covid into somthing mild and endemic – on the basis of the current data, coming in?

    For a sack full of detailed infos from the perfectly harmonius choir of GB experts tuning in to that optimistic Covid-ditty of mine – see here:

    https://www.waronflu.org/dr-john-campbell-daily-covid-19-updates/

    Ah – and just in case you’d hesitate – no: It is no insecure website as the automatic warning says – the website is the perfcly reliable private site of perfectly tustworthy Dr. John Campbell with the latetst data from Saturday night.

  • @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    No, they didn't forget their math. They just don't care and are willing to resort to distortion and cherry picking of data in service of their cause. They are not really interested in data except insofar as it can be used as a club.

    The vax people are partly to blame in that the vax was oversold originally - NOW you tell us that the vaccines aren't really sterilizing?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The vax people are partly to blame in that the vax was oversold originally – NOW you tell us that the vaccines aren’t really sterilizing?

    One thing that’s obvious in hindsight is a great reluctance in a lot of classes of people like politicians to act on likely to almost sure probabilities. Instead they wait until the problem was banging on the door or already in the house (and then often overreact). Cuomo was first all “hug Chinese people,” by 4/3/2020 was directing the National Guard to seize “unused” respirators from upstate.

    So once it became obvious contrary to PRC lies that classic Wuhan was readily transmitted by air we should have known it was very possible it would be significantly worse than SARS in transmission, but we kept getting “things are fine a this point” and we’re “handling” it well messaging. While CDC ineptitude and FDA malfeasance allowed it to take hold without our knowing, only 4,000 people tested through the end of February and no looking for community transmission allowed.

    Here we had for the first time in the history of modern biomedicine a novel respiratory pathogen causing a pandemic, and most origin explanations left the future natural history of it wide open for significant mutations, although we can still reasonably hope we don’t get a new strain that avoids almost all existing immunity (see the paper on 20% of us having significant preexisting immunity through targeting a region that’s conserved in all coronaviruses).

    This is not at all like immunizing for measles many centuries after it jumped from animal rinderpest to humans, it had a very long time to get adapted to humans (and that’s not always going to result in a possibly vaguely acceptable outcome, see smallpox).

    So any scientist type who appended “[against classic Wuhan]” to “has 95% efficacy in its Phase III trial” didn’t get his signal boosted. More bad vibes, might as well kick the can down the road. In a sense worked for Trump, he was out of the Oval Office by the time Alpha started taking hold in the US.

    Not really sure what to do about this but tell the truth (and get labeled as alarmist, not counting those who still insist viruses don’t exist etc.). It doesn’t help that propagandists never let go of the earliest inaccurate pronouncements of politicians and so called experts, stuff they’d never have believed if they had enough education and did enough research, or were good at choosing experts to trust. Or you say, only interested in what they can use as a club.

    • Thanks: Sean
  • @Sean
    The longer it is in an infected person and the more people it is in, then the more chance of a viable variant mutation happening, so there are reasons to think we have not seen the last of it.

    If there are fundamental structural reasons that there is a trade-off so that more infectiousness goes along with less lethality, then Omicron won’t be a fluke and future variants should tend to evolve to be even more spreadable and even milder.
     
    That is exactly what might jam up all critical care facilities, due to it finding its way into people who are old or have preexisting conditions.

    It could be that January 2022 is the climax of the pandemic and it will fade away, like the 1918 Spanish Flu had its last wave in 1920.
     
    Spanish Flu tended to kill young adults, so it was tuned to the age of soldiers in WW1, the crowded trenches barracks and troopships of which is where it became tuned to doing that. Those concentrations simply did not exist after the troops were demobilised. There is also the point that news of of the pandemic waves going on during the war was suppressed by the governments of the combatants while the war was going on; once WW1 was over they started making ending the pandemic their priority. Covid has not had that kind of a free ride, which makes one think it will continue to be a tough nut to crack.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The longer it is in an infected person and the more people it is in, then the more chance of a viable variant mutation happening, so there are reasons to think we have not seen the last of it.

    Right you are.

    We’re pretty sure all of Alpha, Delta, and Omicron were brewed up in individual humans who didn’t throw it off quickly. This is especially likely for Beta and Omicron, both first discovered in the south of Africa where HIV is endemic. The theory is that an ecological battle occurs inside that single body and the patient transmits to others a significantly more competitive variant of the virus, the “winner” that turned out to be more “fit” than the previous dominant variant.

    • Thanks: Sean
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    @That Would Be Telling


    The theory is that an ecological battle occurs inside that single body and the patient transmits to others a significantly more competitive variant of the virus, the “winner” that turned out to be more “fit” than the previous dominant variant.
     
    That sounds more like a noghtmare than a theory, TWBT.

    - Why not asshume ( Dr. John Campbell), that Omikron will turn Covid into somthing mild and endemic - on the basis of the current data, coming in?

    For a sack full of detailed infos from the perfectly harmonius choir of GB experts tuning in to that optimistic Covid-ditty of mine - see here:

    https://www.waronflu.org/dr-john-campbell-daily-covid-19-updates/


    Ah - and just in case you'd hesitate - no: It is no insecure website as the automatic warning says - the website is the perfcly reliable private site of perfectly tustworthy Dr. John Campbell with the latetst data from Saturday night.

  • @Right_On
    @LondonBob

    I had a cold a month back. Felt a bit sleepy, sore throat and runny nose. So mild you wouldn't have bothered taking a day off work. So I was intrigued by a survey revealing that 75% of people reporting those identical symptoms - who'd assumed they just had a cold - actually had the new Omicron variant of Covid. It's therefore more than likely I had the same virus.

    I can't be sure as I've never had myself tested. The thought of foreign objects being shoved into my orifices and scraped around turns my stomach.

    'Lateral flow test' sounds like a schoolboys' pissing competition to see who can urinate the greatest distance.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The thought of foreign objects being shoved into my orifices and scraped around turns my stomach.

    But, but, it’s for SCIENCE!!!

    Seriously, if that meme resonates for you you might ask your public health department on Facebook if they’d like you to use up a test if you think you’ve got a mild case of Omicron and report the result to them. Otherwise it’s best to reserve them for healthcare contexts and the like where differential diagnosis will help confirm if they need to isolate you.

    ‘Lateral flow test’ sounds like a schoolboys’ pissing competition to see who can urinate the greatest distance.

    It does have a subpar name, but it’s really cool technology, uses antibodies and gold to provide a quick although not as sensitive test as something like RT-PCR.

  • @The Anti-Gnostic
    @HA

    Now granulate for co-morbidity.

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/cdc-director-admits-over-75-of-covid-deaths-in-people-with-at-least-4-comorbidities

    IOW, if you're old, fat or otherwise immuno-compromised, you still have the same level of risk of severe illness. The vaccine does not help you because you're already in terminal decline. And if you're young and healthy, the risk of severe disease remains vanishingly small. It's reasoning from a complete counter-factual to say, for example, that if slim, healthy, COVID-infected Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez hadn't gotten the vaccine she'd be dead right now.

    I'm not getting your useless quarterly jab, and neither is the majority of the planet.

    Replies: @HA, @That Would Be Telling

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/cdc-director-admits-over-75-of-covid-deaths-in-people-with-at-least-4-comorbidities is answered by https://www.unz.com/isteve/is-omicron-just-the-flu-bro/#comment-5120086

    Or just read the update in your fine article, the Daily Wire had enough self-respect to make the needed correction.

  • @John Johnson
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    Three shots in one year. Israel is set to give four. That’s not a vaccine; that’s more like an allergy shot.

    Four to vulnerable populations. If you got two then it makes sense to get three for Omicron.

    That position is well based in data. It doesn't make sense to get two and then quit just as it doesn't make sense to assume that previous exposure will give endless protection.

    You are not going to get the planet lined up for inoculations every couple of months. Everything you say can be true, and it isn’t going to happen.

    Herd immunity was obviously not going to happen through the vaccine which is why Omicron is a break for everyone.

    Anti-vaxxers can cough this one out for a few weeks if they want.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    The Anti-Gnostic is also studiously ignorant of how schedules for many existing vaccines include three doses within one year, how we didn’t have the luxury of figuring out optimal dosing schedules, or how schedules in the middle of a pandemic might be different than for endemic but low prevalence pathogens. So for example existing schedules that space out prime and first boost dose by two months don’t make sense in terms of giving people the highest immunity as quickly as possible (Janssen, and only when the boost dose is Janssen is two months based on their second Phase III trial, the likely explanation being waiting for the body’s immune system responses to the virus vector to wane, a known problem with this approach).

    So look at for example this WHO collection of many nations’ vaccination schedules and see for example 2-4-6 month examples. See also for example how Pfizer’s vaccine doesn’t appear to develop good cellular immunity until after the second dose.

  • @Jack D
    @JMcG

    That's true - Cuomo just sent the patients back to their nursing homes. Maybe he figured that killing the nursing home population would help him to balance the NY budget.

    In case you haven't noticed, we have a highly dysfunctional government. If we can spend a trillion $ on a war to no effect, they we can surely spend a few billion on unused hospitals.

    Replies: @prosa123, @John Johnson, @That Would Be Telling

    This is something the two of us have discussed previously, with your coming down on the side of “it wasn’t for the budget.”

    My factual inputs are that Medicaid is the last resort payer for indigent nursing home residents, and Cuomo’s budget was unexpectedly busted in the fall of 2019 by six billion, two thirds of that Medicaid. By now we’ve seen a lot malevolence from him including vaccination policies; I’ll agree absent a confession we won’t know, but I’m still convinced this was the primary motive, although as John Johnson noted in his reply, New York was working on poor data which prompted them to go to extremes to maintain reserve beds.

    Although in the case of the hospital ship, they’re designed for trauma cases and the usual field diseases in relatively young people, not pandemics with an extremely contagious (novel) pathogen. It should have been sent people with injuries and non-communicable diseases it and its staff were prepared to handle to free up on-shore beds, instead was pretty early on sent active COVID patients, likely contaminating it and maybe its staff.

    Cuomo and company were very incompetent in fulfilling their own stated objectives, also managed the own goal of getting quite a few doses of vaccines thrown out because of credible penalties if not administered in the demanded precise priority from their last minute complete change of plans.

    I’ll add that four other Blue governors did the same, New Jersey achieved an even higher per capita death rate early on, and the thing from Pennsylvania made sure to move its mother out of her long term care facility in the state before the policy went into effects.

    • Replies: @John Johnson
    @That Would Be Telling

    My factual inputs are that Medicaid is the last resort payer for indigent nursing home residents, and Cuomo’s budget was unexpectedly busted in the fall of 2019 by six billion, two thirds of that Medicaid. By now we’ve seen a lot malevolence from him including vaccination policies; I’ll agree absent a confession we won’t know, but I’m still convinced this was the primary motive, although as John Johnson noted in his reply, New York was working on poor data which prompted them to go to extremes to maintain reserve beds.

    It's not just Medicaid. The blue states have these massive adult homes that require a lot of medical staff. They have a hard time staffing them and have to pay above average salaries.

    It is rather dark but a virus could easily free up 6 billion. There are patients that run the state 250-500k a year.

    What people need to realize about NY is that the population is heavily first or second generation with a lot of third worlders. They come from areas where villages took care of seniors. They don't come over here with a 401k.

  • @HA
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    "Ontario has begun tracking hospitalizations by vaccination status. It’s not looking good."

    Yeah, sure it doesn't. Why don't you tell us how it looks when those relative numbers are divided through by the number of people in each category, and with the same age groups compared? Maybe something like this?

    Until then, you should know that Berenson already tried playing that exact same flim-flam with the UK stats, and it didn't impress anyone outside the echo chamber back then, either.

    But yeah, I guess Ontario will be enough to really turn things around for you.

    Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic, @That Would Be Telling

    Beside extrapolating from anecdotes to populations, is this the most innumerate thing anti-vaxxers have done?

    Everyone sane admits starting with variants following classic Wuhan these first generation vaccines that target classic Wuhan aren’t sterilizing, and one jab of Janssen was never intended to be sterilizing (just the best single jab), so we expect hospitalizations in the vaccinated just as we expect them from those with only natural immunity to a prior variant. So it matters how much of the population in question has been vaccinated or not for the denominators, what as you note you must divide the top line numerators of cases, hospitalizations and deaths by. Did these people forget their grade school math??

    Anyone who hasn’t can look here for the raw data, and here you can find the total population of any province, it’s estimated to be 14,915,270 for Ontario for the 3rd quarter 2021.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @That Would Be Telling

    No, they didn't forget their math. They just don't care and are willing to resort to distortion and cherry picking of data in service of their cause. They are not really interested in data except insofar as it can be used as a club.

    The vax people are partly to blame in that the vax was oversold originally - NOW you tell us that the vaccines aren't really sterilizing?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

  • @megabar
    Re: whether viruses evolve to be more or less deadly.

    Possibly the biggest factor is simply statistics. If you randomly change a virus, will it become more or less deadly? My guess it that it's often neutral, but when it's not, it's more likely to become less deadly, simply because there are far more harmless protein strands than virulent ones, and I would assume that moving 1 step in any direction from a harmful protein will _generally_ have more proteins that are less harmful.

    Then, there is the question of dependence between virulence and transmissibility. I could imagine that there are scenarios in which they are independent, and scenarios in which they are linked.

    In theory you could model this, by looking at (a) rates of typical mutations, and then calculating (b) virulence and (c) transmissibility of the resulting strains. I would guess that (a) is fairly easy, (b) is hard, and (c) is not really possible.

    But IANAVirologist, so all of this is pure guesswork.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    But IANAVirologist, so all of this is pure guesswork.

    Neither am I, but I have been learning about since the 1970s and even used one in that decade for lab work and you’re doing very well.

    If you randomly change a virus, will it become more or less deadly? My guess it that it’s often neutral, but when it’s not, it’s more likely to become less deadly, simply because there are far more harmless protein strands than virulent ones, and I would assume that moving 1 step in any direction from a harmful protein will _generally_ have more proteins that are less harmful.

    While this is absolutely correct, there’s a consequence of most “less harmful” proteins: they also don’t work, that is, with the change “the virus can’t virus.” There are “conserved” regions of the genome where practically any change is fatal, as well as many regions where some changes are innocuous but others are very bad news. There are also what I’ll call kinda weird changes like in the N for nucleocapsid protein which were important to Alpha, and for Delta, not sure about Alpha, allowed it to pack in more copies of the virus’s RNA payload.

    Ideally vaccine and natural immunity includes targeting conserved regions. A disturbing thing, maybe only this early in the “game,” is that natural immunity is not sterilizing. Maybe that’s just because the variants are a moving target, have not studied what we think we know about reinfections.

    • Replies: @megabar
    @That Would Be Telling

    > there’s a consequence of most “less harmful” proteins: they also don’t work, that is, with the change “the virus can’t virus.”

    Makes sense. So this gets to the notion of dependence between transmissibility and virulence. In other words, what you would want to compute is the weighted average of how virulent a random change is, where the weight is how transmissible the variant is. This can be done, to varying levels of accuracy, statistically or by modeling the changes.

    > Ideally vaccine and natural immunity includes targeting conserved regions.

    It's interesting to me that with the compute and lab tools we now have, it's still difficult to come up with vaccines. You'd think it would be easy to generate candidate protein fragments and test that they safely trigger the immune system, yet provide sterilizing cross reactivity with real viruses.

    And since it's not so easy, I wonder if the difficulty is our ability to generate the right mRNA, or if it's that our immune systems have built-in limitations when dealing with certain viruses.

    Replies: @ic1000

  • @epebble
    Hard to get info on Omicron, which does seem to be flu like in symptoms.

    But, for what it is worth, CDC Excess Deaths Statistics for most recent few weeks are:

    Dec 4, 2021: 15.6%
    Dec 11, 2021: 14.8%
    Dec 18, 2021: 6.5%


    Obviously, the most recent weeks Statistics are incomplete. Christmas and New Year are slow anyway.

    15% excess deaths seems statistically significant.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    But there was also a modest winter Delta wave going on until Omnicron became close to all dominant, perhaps in January. In SoCal Kaiser Permanente’s 14 of the 15 Covid deaths in December were still due to Delta.

    On the other hand, maybe there are some poor bastards who reacted very badly to Omicron who are currently lingering in hospitals and will eventually die from it.

    Analyzing a moving target like this is hard work, although the Kaiser paper authors did work hard.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    @Steve Sailer

    Excess death statistics on that short a time frame are less than ridiculous. They are absurdly meaningless.

    Replies: @for-the-record

    , @John Johnson
    @Steve Sailer

    But there was also a modest winter Delta wave going on until Omnicron became close to all dominant, perhaps in January. In SoCal Kaiser Permanente’s 14 of the 15 Covid deaths in December were still due to Delta.

    That is correct.

    Omicron had not pushed out Delta in many of the west coast states until the end of December. There were in fact hospitals that already had patients from Delta Christmas parties.

    That also leaves the possibility of Delta patients getting Omicron.

    On the other hand, maybe there are some poor bastards who reacted very badly to Omicron who are currently lingering in hospitals and will eventually die from it.

    Over 95% will be unvaccinated that were able to avoid Delta. They are the ones that are gambling.

    If you survived Delta then you will survive Omicron but the vaccine will make it much easier.

  • @Hypnotoad666
    So basically, everyone will end up catching the virus, as it mutates to a harmless endemic cold. Exactly as all the virologists prior to 2020 had always predicted and planned for. The only difference being that we voluntarily decided to destroy our economy and society in the meantime while this inevitable process played out.

    Replies: @tyrone, @El Dato, @Anonymous, @TorontoTraveller, @JR Ewing, @Redman, @ganderson, @Wizard of Oz, @Dieter Kief, @HA, @jamie b.

    “…we voluntarily decided to destroy our economy and society in the meantime while this inevitable process played out.”

    In the end, your precious economy won’t change your inevitable demise either, no matter how hot and bothered you are to see it “destroyed”, so I think you got some consistency issues you might want to work through if you really expect anyone outside your echo chamber to take you seriously.

    Some people think limiting a death toll that was projected (fairly well, in hindsight) to be about two million in the US, under a Lukashenko-style let-her-rip policy, to less than a third of that (not including the deaths of anti-vaxxers, because, come on, they’re just getting what they asked for) is a worthwhile endeavor. And that’s basically what happened; the Lukashenkos among us, be they in Israel or Russia or this place — were for the most part dismissed world-wide as the nutjobs that they are.

    The fact that you think all the effort that entailed was nothing but a waste of time kind of explains why no one listens to the likes of you in general. I mean, it’s no wonder the chamber-of-commerce types keep caving in to the cheap-labor immigration lobbies. In the end, it’s all about the economy, am I right? Why would we ever want to anything to upset THAT import-the-masses perpetual-growth Ponzi scheme?

    • Thanks: Corvinus
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    @HA

    No it isn't about the economy. It's about liberty. It's about living like a human and not a lab rat.

    I no longer expect hysterical cowards with the mentality of a slave - people like you - to understand that.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @HA, @Old Prude

    , @BB753
    @HA

    Except nothing of the sort happened in Belarus, with just 5,574 deaths for a population of 9,439,233.

    Replies: @HA

  • @HA
    @Erik L

    "looking at the graphs in the study, they show cumulative probability of death for even the delta variant as below 0.1%. Isn’t that the low end CFR number for seasonal flu?"

    It is indeed, if most of the population is vaxxed, which thankfully it is. For them, it really has been pretty much just-a-flu this past year. When the just-a-flu-bros pop in to remind us that there were more COVID deaths in 2021 than in 2020, they forget to also mention that their own Darwin awards are the primary reason for that.

    That being the case, maybe it would make them feel better if we changed their cause of death listing from COVID to "irony".

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Erik L

    You exaggerate a bit. All cause excess deaths didn’t really start taking off in the US until the end of March (and we were somewhat unprepared due to CDC ineptness plus FDA malevolence sandbagging testing), while COVID was serious for all of 2021, with Alpha became the most prevalent strain in March. As I recall, general vaccine availability didn’t happen until April or so.

    But you’re generally right, or as John Nolte put it, “Data Confirms Trump Counties Dying to Own the Libs.” Irony indeed.

    • Thanks: HA
  • @Dieter Kief
    @Hypnotoad666


    we voluntarily decided to destroy our economy and society in the meantime 
     
    - in the beginning, nobody knew how this thing would play out. If I'm right, your claim implies the likes of Steve Sailer and Greg Cochran and Ron Unz et. al. - in the light of this - act - i think your claim about the voluntary destruction of the economy is not absolutely plausible, to choose the weakest version of my contradiction here.

    On a different note: Pandemics are perfect petri dishes for all kinds of ghosts in our basements to have a King's Banquet with - if my metaphor is halfwayst on track.

    Put more bluntly: Pandemics are not least occasions in which - - - we, as societies, show (and have to deal with) rather dark (= half-conscious / subconscious) regions which - per definition - are no places where nothing but sound reasons emerge. There's angst there, in those darker regions of our selves, and suspicions, hate, confusion, inner turmoil etc. pp. - . Thing is: We can only tell in retrospect, who really had a clear mind (Jackson Browne - "(...) it takes a clear mind to make it" (in his version of the song Cocaine....).

    Now that we're through with this Covid thing (or close to being through), I started to reflect about it and what I can say while looking  back at close to seven hundred days which saw me on average at least an hour / day - often more - trying to figure out what was going on, this one thing that I take home with me is the sentence by Sigmund Freud: The voice of reason is speaking softly. Here I think of Martin Kulldorff and John Ioannidis, and of an outsider: science blogger Hail to You - all of them champions of this debate - and of some commenters here or on Ron Unz' site like like ic1000 and the tirelessly arguing That would be telling (and quite a few others too). Coolest - and softest spoken - dudes of all: Johan Giesecke and his pupil and successor Anders Tegnell in Sweden (Freddy Sayers of UnHerd TV did a great job interviewing them).

    The next best thing after being soft-spoken or maybe the best thing even, is if the debaters are able to show self-irony. Like Michael Levitt did and Ivor Cummins and - the lovely! and heartwarmingly clear Swiss retired virology professor Beda M. Stadler, whom Ivor Cummins features prominently in his Covid documentary film.

    For me personally Stadler with his articles in the Swiss press and his TV-appearances in Swiss and Austrian first rank TV-talk-shows and news-shows and his guest-appearances on Burkhard Müller-Ullrich's very soft spoken and here and there self-ironic podcast Idubio of the German site Achgut.Com, where the Swiss Professor Stadler appeared regularly, made the biggest difference. Together with the German family-doctor and well known medical writer Gunter Frank, who wrote ca. eighty very well informed articles on Achgut.Com and did publish a decent book about covid called "Der Staats Virus" ( = the Virus who was created by the state and who affected the state...). 

    Lots of others were not either soft spoken and / or self-ironic, and did raise some interesting questions, but they were often times contaminated with outlandish speculations (Rainer Fuellmich, Dr. Wodarg, Dr. Malone...).

    All in all I'd hold, that the real difference made those who knew how to stay cool and - how to differentiate between facts and predictions. Statistics seemed to be the biggest hurdle for most who paticipapted in this debate - here the science blogger Orwell2024 was doing great work, and the British mathematician Norman Fenton (both are on twitter).

    The best Covid rant was Joe Rogan's - by a mile - if not by two: Removed from youtube - the three-minute-clip in which he says, that he has not been ill for years - that he thinks, that not moving your lazy bones while being severely overweight is maybe the most damaging Covid-risk-factor - way worse than getting the jab - or not... - which, I think, could quite easily turn out to be - at least quite close to the truth. But except for that: This short clip is the great anti-panic Covid-performance!

    Replies: @anon, @ic1000

    DK, your comment prompted me to go back to the Great Barrington Declaration. It was posted on October 4, 2020, over a month before evidence of the efficacy and reasonable safety of Pfizer’s jab became known.

    With the benefit of fifteen months’ hindsight, this short essay reads very well indeed! A map for the Road Not Taken.

    It returned to the headlines last month, when news broke that Narrative celebrities had worked behind the scenes to suffocate reasoned discussion of the GBD’s core idea, Focused Protection. From STATnews, the FOIA’d 10/8/20 email from NIH supremo Francis Collins to Anthony Fauci and others. Thanks to its brevity, the force of their anti-intellectual dogmatism shines through.

    Hi Tony and Cliff,

    See https://gbdeclaration.org/ This proposal from three fringe epidemiologists who met with the Secretary seems to be getting a lot of attention – and even a co-signature from Nobel Prize winner Mike Leavitt at Stanford. There needs to be a quick and devastating published takedown of its premises. I don’t see anything like that on line yet – is it underway?

    Francis

    [MORE]

    Further thoughts:

    * The vaccines seemed to achieve near-complete “sterilizing immunity” against the SARS-CoV-2 strains that were circulating in the first half of 2021. If that had held, it would have created common policy ground between the doctrinaire public-health/medical establishment and Focused Protection advocates. The establishment was unwittingly and foolishly placing a multi-trillion-dollar bet that sterilizing immunity would continue — even though it was generally known by October that this bet had already gone bust.

    * In the past week, I’ve put some time into looking for safety information on vaccines against SARS-CoV-2. It is very difficult to find solid statistical treatments of this very important subject. My qualitative impression — which seems to be shared by Martin Kulldorff of the GBF and the Attia podcast interview referenced earlier — is that the mRNA vaccines are on the “more risky” side of the “generally safe” window. The issue of greatest concern appears to be vaccine-provoked myocarditis among healthy young men, in the days and weeks after a second or third (booster) dose. Given that SARS-CoV-2 infection is generally mild in this group, especially after one dose, the case for repeat jabs does not appear to be supported by risk/reward analysis.

    * To be clear, I remain strongly pro-vaxx. For older people and people with comorbidities, the risk/reward case for vaccination and boosting appears very strong. However, given the vaccinated’s susceptibility to infection by new variants, herd immunity arguments are invalid. “You owe it to society” boils down to “be prudent in your behavior so as not to overburden hospitals.” That strikes me as a weak justification for coercive policies that violate the principal of Autonomy. And how does one weigh the justified loss of trust in medicine and public health, when the antics of people like Fauci, Collins, and Biden — among others — come to light?

    • Replies: @clyde
    @ic1000

    Dr. Deborah Birx, also known as 'the scarf lady,' and her partners in crime, the still at-large Dr. Anthony Fauci and NIH supremo Francis Collins. What I have been reading about the nice grandmotherly looking lady, the scarf lady. Is that she was very active behind the scenes in bureaucratic maneuvering while Trump was President. That she was quite adept at suppressing those working under Trump, who wanted to look into other ways to counter-Covid, besides vaxx, vaxx, vaxx and more boosters every 4-5 months. One of the mega-Pharmas said they were developing an annual shot flu shot and Covix-xyz, all rolled into one, a glorious combo injection for your protection. Unz poster HA says that he will be first in line where he lives.

    So look for more pro-vaxxxxxxx hysteria.hypochondria annually, in the early fall as the winter flu and Covid-xxx season approaches. Just when we are voting in early November, thus justifying mail in ballots and vote harvesting forever, the prime election cheat the Dems have. And none dare call this conspiracy and collusion.

    , @Mark G.
    @ic1000


    To be clear, I remain strongly pro-vaxx.
     
    You come across as calm and reasonable and not the type of person to engage in high levels of verbal abuse. There has been a little too much verbal abuse on both sides and I'm guilty of that myself. To make this a less emotional issue, it would be better to take it outside the realm of politics and make it a matter of individual choice.

    Good doctors tailor treatments to each individual patient rather than using a "one size fits all" approach. If you allow them to use the treatments they want and allow patients to pick the doctors they want there should be no problem. I would not be for banning something like Ivermectin but I also would not be for banning the vaccines either. It's hard to do a risk-benefit analysis of the vaccines since we don't know the future risks but so far it appears they do a good job of reducing deaths among older people. The only major side effects, as you mention, appear to be among younger people.

    Once doctors can decide whether they want to use conventional treatments, alternative treatments or vaccines then insurance companies can decide what they are going to pay for. Private companies and government agencies can decide whether to require vaccines for their employees. I work for the military and was required to get vaccinated. If I didn't want to do that I could have quit or retired since I'm 65. I don't think state vaccine mandates are a good idea but at least there you don't have the same Constitutional issues that caused the Supreme Court to strike down the federal mandate for private employers. Let the voters in each state decide what they want their state government to do.
    , @Dieter Kief
    @ic1000

    Marin Kulldorff was astonishingly right from the beginning - as was Michael Levitt. - What if this lucid little article by him from spring 2020 (!) had not been banned and smeared, but openly discussed in the main stream:

    https://medium.com/@michael.levitt/the-excess-burden-of-death-from-coronavirus-covid-19-is-closer-to-a-month-than-to-a-year-83fca74455b4

    The headline - Excess Burden of Covid Death Closer to One Month Than to a Year!

    (That still sounds astonishing - and might still come as a surprise to many a reader...).

    Replies: @Clyde, @utu

  • @Redman
    @Jack D

    South Africa isn’t highly vaccinated and Omicron has been similarly fairly innocuous.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    South Africa isn’t highly vaccinated and Omicron has been similarly fairly innocuous.

    South Africa is about 2/5ths vaccinated by eye, this has been occupation and age prioritized, and with the good stuff, Pfizer/BioNTech and Janssen (they didn’t think AZ/Oxford was good enough for their Beta variant).

    But it has a high level of natural immunity and that’s probably better than two doses of a good vaccine. This is one of the reasons we think early Omicron outcomes over there have largely been replicated in a place like the US where there’s more vaccine immunity in the mix but probably a high overall total.

  • @Jack D
    @Bill

    Exactly. Omicron is turning out to be similar to the flu - there is a vaccine but it's not 100% effective (especially if you don't take it). But he discounts the Omicron IFR without similarly discounting the flu IFR and so concludes that the Omicron IFR is half that of the flu. If I had to guess, they are similar. Probably Omicron would be worse except for the fact that most of the most vulnerable have recently received 3 doses of vaccine.

    But yeah, we don't shut down schools and theaters every year during flu season. It's accepted that it's endemic and we are never getting rid of it. A certain # of mainly old people will die from it every year. We try to give everyone who wants it, especially the elderly, flu shots every year but if they don't want them we don't fire them from their jobs. We don't destroy our economy over the flu.

    For political reasons if nothing else (and as far as they are concerned, there IS nothing else) the Biden Administration is very soon going to declare "victory" over Covid the same way as they declared victory in Afghanistan. If it all goes to shit after they declare victory (and it probably won't anyway), it won't be their fault (and the media sure as hell aren't going to hold them accountable). The only hard part will be getting the unionized teacher back to work when they have been enjoying their paid vacations and weaning all the other government entities and dependent populations off of their Covid gibmedats.

    Replies: @Bill, @That Would Be Telling, @Flying Dutchman

    we don’t shut down schools and theaters every year during flu season.

    But we do shut down schools occasionally during some parts of some normal, non-pandemic but above average flu seasons. Whereas whatever its severity in the short term, Omicron is definitely in a pandemic stage in much of the US. Fortunately with plenty of early signs that’s starting to wane.

    Not sure about this “Biden” declaring “victory” concept after he waved the white flag of surrender on December 27th, saying “Look, there is no federal solution. This gets solved at a state level.”

    OK, in context it’s not so bad, but that doesn’t matter so much in politics, especially with people as maladroit as, well, Biden always was, but worse now that he’s 79, and Harris.

    I can well see them declaring victory, perhaps Afghanistan style as you outline, but I sense neither of them thinks they’ll get a handle on teachers’ unions and teachers, critical parts of the Democratic base who are doing Left a great deal of harm right now. And all this was after “Biden” pivoted to COVID to I believe distract from other disasters, but without a real plan, initially fell flat on “his” face as the FDA said “No” to premature applications for mRNA second boost doses or a boost dose for Janssen (their Phase III studies were not far enough along), and otherwise failed to move the needle. Which also won’t happen with Pfizer’s drug for a while as the supply chain for making it by the ton is established.

    and weaning all the other government entities and dependent populations off of their Covid gibmedats.

    That’s going to be “interesting” one way or another.

  • @ic1000
    Thoughts from a regular commenter, below the fold. Has worked in biotech (i.e. can read the primary literature) but not a clinician or a specialist. Pro-vaccine.

    In my family (all boosted, all infected), one college-age kid and Mrs. ic1000 had sniffles, other college-age kid had 2 days of bad stay-at-home flu symptoms. I had mild flu symptoms, now at Day 12 of being positive by rapid antigen tests. This seems to be the about the range among acquaintances in Rust Belt City, and among extended family.

    > If there are fundamental structural reasons that there is a trade-off so that more infectiousness goes along with less lethality, then Omicron won’t be a fluke and future variants should tend to evolve to be even more spreadable and even milder.

    This often happens with pathogens in general and with RNA respiratory viruses in particular. It's a tendency, not a low of nature (I'll dig up a link to an evolutionary biology essay if anybody is interested as to why).

    In this regard, the future is unwritten. (See the highly transmissible and highly fatal Spanish Flu of 1918.)

    A critical factor is the state of people's immune systems prior to first exposure. Here, the future is not unwritten. SARS-CoV-2 (like the SARS and MERS viruses) was sufficiently different from the four endemic cornonaviruses (which cause 20% of colds) that it was new to everybody's adaptive immune system. (Everybody's adaptive system is integrated with the evolutionarily-old innate immune system, which offers immediate defenses against all viruses, old and new.)

    It takes many days to a few weeks for the adaptive immune system's defenses (e.g. antibodies, B cells, T cells) to fully activate. For a re-exposure, the adaptive system is already primed, so its reactions are faster and stronger.

    This is the point of vaccination, and the basis of immunity after infection or vaccination.

    At the time of the lab leak (90% prior) or jump from bats (10%), everybody's immune system was naive. How sick you got depended on (1) circumstances of exposure, maybe, (2) how good your innate system was, (3) how good your adaptive system was, (4) your age -- probably 2 & 3 -- and (5) your comorbidities.

    As is well known, viruses mutate. It's a core part of their evolutionary strategy. Part of the "reason" is to evade the adaptive immune system, i.e. open up prior "protected" people to re-infection.

    Omicron's 32-plus mutations make it really good at this.

    However, thanks to infection and vaccination, very few people in the developed world are naive to any descendant of the original SARS-CoV-2 virus. We have a head start on defending against delta, omicron, etc. As a result, the course of disease is milder and shorter.

    This will continue into the future. It is written.

    - - - - -

    In my opinion, the public-health response to the pandemic has been very poor, throughout. To say nothing of the West's political leadership class (but one expects them to be mostly fools and cowards). The one shining exception has been the extremely rapid development of reasonably safe and reasonably effective vaccines. The commenters who competently and correctly (IMHO) laid out the pro-vaxx arguments on earlier threads are "That Would Be Telling," "Jack D," "Rob," and a few others (apologies for lack of total recall). There's also the rapid progress in ICU techniques (e.g. pronation), and the development of monoclonal antibodies and small-molecule therapeutics.

    Everything else has been largely a shit show. A partly-avoidable shit show.

    Anyway, to the present and future.

    Omicron is (1) very contagious and (2) somewhat mild. Most important, (3) through vaccination and/or prior infection, most people recognize this virus. They (we) get infected and are usually contagious, but the adaptive immune system responds quickly and efficiently, so symptoms aren't that bad.

    Policies haven't changed to reflect this reality. Omicron is going to continue sweeping -- this week is probably the peak in North America and Europe -- and then recede by early/mid February.

    In February/March, new policies will come into force that deal with the December realities.

    As far as the what and when of the next major variant (phi?): who knows? It will be contagious (by definition, or it won't be "major"). It may be mild to the few remaining naive people. For everybody else, our immune systems will definitely be primed to counter it, so very likely mild.

    In other words: The Flu, Bro (per 1918/19 and fragile old people every year, that's not necessarily the same as Just The Flu).

    Resources: Philippe Lemoine isn't a specialist; he has posted a set of very perceptive and accessible essays on Covid at his website.

    On the 1/3/22 episode of his podcast The Drive, Peter Attia interviewed a pair of dissenting thought leaders, Marty Makary and Zubin Damania. It is excellent, thorough, and timely... but runs 2 hours 45 minutes. They were involved with the Great Barrington statement, and have written numerous opinion pieces and Op-Eds. Speaking as a moderate pro-vaxxer: the world would be a better place if their ideas held sway... probably everybody but repeat-boosts-for-everyone extremists (i.e. current US leadership) would agree on that.

    Zvi Moskowitz' blog "Don't Worry About the Vase" is thorough, comprehensive, and thoughtful. He's quite opinionated, and it's easy to get lost in the details.

    Replies: @Chrisnonymous, @Sick of Orcs, @That Would Be Telling, @Dmon, @Emil Nikola Richard

    Thanks! We vaccinated people continue to not drop dead on the predicted schedules of the anti-vaxxers, and they just get less attached to the truth and more desperate and vitriolic.

    And we still see plenty of total COVID truthers (something else killed a million Americans, or that’s also a lie, these loners should get out more), and Floomers which prosa123 comes a bit close to who for example jumped on ABC’s editing of the CDC director’s January 7th comments on a study of vaccinated outcomes, which ended with the statistic that of those who died 75% had at least four comorbidities. ABC quietly updated the clip, see here at ~2:45, Good Morning America is not about to admit the removed section had too much math!!! for journalists and TV talking heads to understand.

    You are of course right about the evolutionary path of variants, not a law but to quote Derek “Things I Won’t Work With” Lowe, “It’s not the job of a virus to make people deathly ill: it’s the job of a virus to make more virus.” And both greater transmissibility which is obvious, and less lethality and immediate morbidity so people will be around more other people longer to transmit it are aligned with that “job.” As 1918-9 indeed showed that’s not written in stone but it’s something we can reasonably hope for. Now for some more specific replies, nits, etc.:

    A critical factor is the state of people’s immune systems prior to first exposure. Here, the future is not unwritten. SARS-CoV-2 (like the SARS and MERS viruses) was sufficiently different from the four endemic coronaviruses (which cause 20% of colds) that it was new to everybody’s adaptive immune system.

    In addition to the variables you outlined for outcomes, I’ve come across a paper which says about 20% of us appear to have had a degree of immunity to a part of all coronaviruses which is extremely conserved (can’t change (much) or “the virus won’t virus”), we presume from previous exposures to those human endemic strains. This is inside the cell machinery so is not as attractive a target as the spike protein, “neutralizing” antibodies against those can entirely prevent a virus from hijacking a cell, this prior immunity plus for example immunity targeting the N for nucleocapsid protein can only work against already hijacked cells.

    Hypnotoad666 is not correct about “a harmless endemic cold,” the four previous endemic human coronaviruses were associated with statistically worse outcomes than most other viruses that cause “the common cold,” and slumber_j is right about how the seasonal flu can hit you like a ton of bricks (my characterization about the one time I’m pretty sure I got it), but on the other hand flu also a fair fraction of cases of “the common cold” when it’s milder.

    And we aren’t, can’t yet know the long term morbidity of Omicron. We can reasonably hope it’s less than classic Wuhan through Delta, especially in those who had natural and/or vaccine immunity, but we can only learn this a day at a time. For 2020 long term morbidity was statistically grim, including 8% of the people in that study of Veterans Administration data so weighed older, who did not require hospitalization and survived thirty days then dying above the expected baseline within six months. On a theoretical basis some people I follow including I now see Rob are concerned; I’m continuing my own personal attempt at a Zero COVID defense in depth including N95 masking.

    In the non-developed world, previously acquired natural immunity is also going to be protecting a lot of people. Of course I agree on the policial response aside from Operation Warp Speed which also targeted therapeutics, it’s now dismantled and thus I assume one reason “Biden” turned down the concept of a Maximum Effort to mass produce quick test strips, and now is sort of getting serious about it in the usual government rationing approach, Harry Baldwin covers this well.

    It’s also amazing to see how long it took any Congressmen or others at the national level to start talking about moving to serious N95 grade masks, in the last week!; they really only care about the politics. That’s unforgivable, especially when a moderate amount of money would have allowed us to massively increase our capacity to make the special material required for them as well as the final product in the couple of years when this was ignored by our betters.

    “repeat-boosts-for-everyone extremists” Yeah, that’s not currently indicated, especially if Omicron and future variants have much less mortality and morbidity.

    One idea behind this as I understand it is to maintain large fleets of antibodies in the blood ready to immediately pounce on a new exposure. Another which I’m sure our ruling trash are not thinking about is the observations from Rockefeller U. that memory B-cell refinement from an infection goes on for at least six months, but only three weeks from a first prime-boost or maybe just prime for Janssen vaccination (that’s preparation for making the next and New and Improved antibody fleet). Researchers will have more on the results of additional boost doses now or later, but for now I’m assuming additional vaccine doses will prompt more memory B-cell refinement. Not sure what happens with cellular part of the adaptive immune system, the whole set of three is very complicated.

    • LOL: 3g4me
    • Troll: Twodees Partain
    • Replies: @Peterike
    @That Would Be Telling

    Thanks for that tiresome reiteration of the conventional wisdom. Do you ever expose yourself to other ideas? Enjoy your useless N95 mask.

    , @onetwothree
    @That Would Be Telling

    Goddamn I wish your Pfizer shares would vest and you would shut the fuck up already.

    , @Mr. Anon
    @That Would Be Telling


    Thanks! We vaccinated people continue to not drop dead on the predicted schedules of the anti-vaxxers
     
    Don't worry. There's still time. We're still all pullin' for ya', "That would be telling".

    Then there is this guy:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/22/business/media/carlos-tejada-dead.html

    Of course there's no proof that Mr. Tejada died from the vaccine. He just happened to die within one day of getting a booster shot.

    It's not like the media would ever report that an alarmingly high number of people were dying from the vaccine. They are entirely in the pocket of big pharma. That is not something they would ever say if it were true.


    ..........., and they just get less attached to the truth and more desperate and vitriolic.
     
    Excuse me? Who is more desperate and vitriolic? The only people I see throwing vitriol around are the politicians and celebrities who publicly denounce unvaccinated people and want them to 1.) be locked up, 2.) be denied medical care, 3.) starve and/or 4.) die.

    By the way, your term "anti-vaxxer" is bulls**t. That term now includes anybody who opposes mandated vaccines.

    Replies: @John Johnson

    , @SunBakedSuburb
    @That Would Be Telling

    "We vaccinated people continue to not drop dead on the predicted schedules of anti-vaxxers ..."

    I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I spent the last year collecting information on the mRNA vaccine and decided it was not for me. I believe the real injuries from the vaccine will come five to ten years out, specifically in the form of immune system destruction.

    "they just get less attached to the truth and more desperate and vitriolic"

    This is projection: as the mRNA vaccines continue to fail in stopping infection-transmission, and the vaccinated begin to join the unvaccinated in hospital wards, the cult -- primarily comprised of advanced degreed upper middle class managerial types -- that surrounds the pandemic/Holy Vaccine/St. Fauci is becoming uglier and more dangerously deranged as the days pass. Whilst viewing this parade of grotesques I can't decide whether to laugh, cry, or barf.

    , @Je Suis Omar Mateen
    @That Would Be Telling

    "Researchers will have more on the results of additional boost doses now or later, but for now I’m assuming additional vaccine doses will prompt more memory B-cell refinement."

    TWBS, you're back earlier than expected - I hope you enjoyed your vacation. I see your employer Pfizer sent you to fanboi for the Moronic clot$hot$ debuting in six weeks. Boost baby boost!

    So when people are getting the Moronic shots en masse prolly April/May, what will Pfizer name the variant - aka the dis-ease and death - caused by your defective product? Y'all sticking with IHU? Holla back, my shill!

    , @obwandiyag
    @That Would Be Telling

    This screed is a perfect example of Frank Luntz trademarked diversion talking point number fourteen: load proof on about one little insignificant detail, accuse those who suggest this detail is true of gross stupidity, say this one thing proves they are wrong about everything, and deliberately and assiduously draw away attention from the elephant in the room.

    Who cares what the virus is or isn't. I mean, it's just the flu, but who cares if it isn't. The truth of the matter doesn't matter.

    What matters is, the vaccines are killing people. And, even more importantly than that, they are sickening everybody, making every vaccinated person's immune system weaker. And, more important that that, down the road apiece, 5, 10, 20 years, that damage will shorten every vaccinated person's life, and cripple any survivors.

    Replies: @Old Prude

    , @Jimbo
    @That Would Be Telling

    Shut the fuck up, Donny.

    , @Hypnotoad666
    @That Would Be Telling


    We vaccinated people continue to not drop dead
     
    Actually, the vaxxed are dropping dead, they just don't know it because the reported statistics are a lie. For example, if you die within 30 days of being vaccinated you are counted as an "unvaccinated" death. (On the theory that the vax doesn't kick in for 30 days). Moreover, the VAERS system is a joke and doesn't capture even a tiny fraction of actual vax deaths and injuries.

    Data from countries with better records show that all cause mortality is actually worse for the vaxxed.

    https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/vaccinated-english-adults-under-60

    https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/vaccines-dont-stop-covid-hospitalizations

    Replies: @Dieter Kief

    , @Mike Tre
    @That Would Be Telling

    "We vaccinated people continue to not drop dead "

    Normal healthy people never dropped dead from your unremarkable virus to begin with, making the above statement a moot point, true or not.

    You would have made a fine addition to Stalin's inner circle.

  • Race is a social construct until it isn't. Race doesn't exist until it does. [NYC will consider race when distributing life-saving COVID treatments, NY Post, January 1, 2022]: New York City will take a patient’s race into account when distributing potentially life-saving COVID treatments, the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene revealed on their website....
  • @By-tor
    @Adolph 2nd

    Let the blacks and browns eat those mystery pills. White people ought to continue to decline 'covid' injections and avoid any 'new' pharmaceutical product related to 'covid'. The current data from around the world shows vaccinated people are the ones most sick with seasonal influenza, because their immune systems have been damaged.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Let the blacks and browns eat those mystery pills.

    Why are people like you so addicted to lying? Even the categories of these two new COVID drugs are not novel, Merck’s and Pfizer’s.

    Your “current data” is also a lie unless you can share some sources with us I’m unfamiliar with, but of course your implied denial of COVID altogether shows us you’re a crackpot.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    @That Would Be Telling


    Why are people like you so addicted to lying? Even the categories of these two new COVID drugs are not novel, Merck’s and Pfizer’s.
     
    You know how they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks? On some level it applies to each and every one of us. It's just that for some, that new trick is the idea that these vaccines could be anything other than harmful.
  • @Boy the way Glenn Miller played

    The guidance applies to both the distribution of monoclonal antibodies and oral antivirals like Paxlovid and Molnupiravir.
     
    That sounds like cultural appropriation. Shouldn't the moulignons go out and sacrifice a chicken instead?

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    That sounds like cultural appropriation. Shouldn’t the moulignons go out and sacrifice a chicken instead?

    Heh. And they’re high in “vaccine hesitancy.” But the second part of this sentence is a lie and why these allocation policies exist in the first place:

    Medical experts said it is correct for COVID treatment to be allocated based who is at the highest risk, but stressed that race was not a biological risk factor.

    These treatments only work when given early. The antivirals are standard in this for that class of drugs and acute infections (and they should be available in quantity soon). Monoclonal antibodies a lot harder to make unless the small molecule drug in a pill or injection has an insane synthesis like remdesivir, and by definition they are useless as soon as eight days after the start of an infection which is generally earlier than when symptoms prompt people to seek out medical care.

    That’s because your adaptive immune system makes more effective polyclonal antibodies, that is ones to many parts of the virus instead of one AKA “mono”, and the FDA’s Official guidelines for example say don’t use monoclonal antibodies on serious cases, the ones that start with requiring supplemental oxygen.

    So ignoring the chickens, allocation is by risk factors, give it to patients based on statistical risk since we can’t know who will really need them, and everything else being equal, being black is a significant risk compared to being white for COVID outcomes. Using it as a tie breaker, and not giving these scarce treatments to whites who don’t have (enough) risk factors is rational, but makes for great propaganda for our side.

    A legitimate area to get upset about is the allocation away from the Midwest and especially South of liver and kidneys for transplant.

    • Replies: @Adolph 2nd
    @That Would Be Telling

    I do so enjoy hearing about the vaccine hesitant negroes, refusing a life saving vaccine.
    Dey is be afraid dis be da tuskeege experiment all over again.

    Replies: @By-tor

    , @mulga mumblebrain
    @That Would Be Telling

    These two drugs, paxlovid and molnupiravir, are experimental and highly dangerous, so giving them to 'minorities' first saves on the expense of laboratory primates. BigPharma at its finest.

  • The judicial lynching of white police officer Kim Potter, in contrast to the complete failure to charge the black cop who killed Ashli Babbitt, is just the latest evidence: for over 60 years, the Historic American Nation has been in a one-sided civil war. Now the U.S. is showing unmistakable signs of morphing into an...
  • @El Dato
    @Rich

    Well, the eastern part (and this included ex-Poland, wich got just rolled over and was reconstituted as "new Poland" a bit more to the west than earlier). Roosevelt sold it all to Stalin, and it's victor's spoils, so what you gonna do about it? Pick up the phone to Stlain? Drive the US tank divisions to Moscow from the Elbe? Not a chance, they would have been a paper tiger against the Soviets.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @Rich

    Roosevelt sold it all to Stalin

    Perhaps, but by the time Eisenhower was in a position to follow or even make any decisions about where to draw lines the bulk of our troops were committed to our unfinished business with Imperial Japan. When Truman’s cruiser was going east from America to get him to the Potsdam Conference it passed two or three complete divisions of men who were slated for rest, refit, and then Operation Olympic, the first invasion of the Japanese home islands.

  • Not only do we need Gun Control to keep all those out-of-control Wisconsin deer hunters from shooting everybody with their terrifying semi-automatic weapons, but we need SUV Control as well.
  • @Achmed E. Newman
    @Buzz Mohawk

    You can't NOT hurt and kill (5, already) people in a crowd with a big SUV @ 40 mph. This one is horrible for family people who just want to do things together outside, such as in this Christmas parade. My wife saw it and doesn't want us to go anywhere in big crowds now.

    We should have picked our own damned cotton. That's 400 years of long-term consequences from that screw up!

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    This one is horrible for family people who just want to do things together outside, such as in this Christmas parade. My wife saw it and doesn’t want us to go anywhere in big crowds now.

    I have an older cultural Boomer friend who remembers the violence of the ’60s and that’s been his and his family’s policy for some time now. For the foreseeable future in the US it’s the only sane general policy to have.

    • Agree: Adam Smith
  • A white man angry about anti-Kyle sentiment has crashed into a crowded Christmas parade in Milwaukee and killed five people. The feds are no doubt going to use this as part of their “domestic terrorism” agenda. I’m just joking. It was this guy! They haven’t announced that he did it because he was angry about...
  • @anon
    Jews needed this incident to direct attention away from themselves since antisemitism is getting to the point where it is becoming a real worry to them. This is the race war that jews have been trying to start for a long long time. This won't end pretty.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Jews needed this incident to direct attention away from themselves since antisemitism is getting to the point where it is becoming a real worry to them.

    This would work better if so many of them weren’t exulting over this attack, making it clear it’s payback for the Rittenhouse verdict.

    • Replies: @Mustapha Mond
    @That Would Be Telling

    "This would work better if so many of them weren’t exulting over this attack, making it clear it’s payback for the Rittenhouse verdict."

    Man, oh, man, ain't that the truth:

    https://www.rt.com/usa/540996-democrat-lemanski-karma-wisconsin-rittenhouse/

  • @Alfa158
    @Dr. Doom

    Lincoln was planning to ship them back, or if that was prohibitively expensive, at least to the Caribbean islands. Like Jefferson he realized trying to live together in the same society would ultimately fail.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    Lincoln was planning to ship them back, or if that was prohibitively expensive, at least to the Caribbean islands. Like LBJ, thought, he realized they would be reliable voters for his party for decades afterwords.

    Fixed it for you.

    And Republicans haven’t stopped trying to get black votes since then. It’s such a core part of their identity I doubt they ever will, especially when so many of them hate their white core constituents.

    • Replies: @Observator
    @That Would Be Telling

    People tend to forget that Lincoln's party totally abandoned the freedmen when it became politically expedient to do so. The GOP lost the 1876 presidential election but its leaders were not yet ready to surrender power to the rival party, as they put it, of "rum, Romanism, and rebellion." They cooked up a deal with former Confederates to invalidate the votes of three southern states in return for withdrawing the last peacekeeping force of US troops from the south. For four tense months the nation teetered in the brink of a new civil war. Ex-CSA General Longstreet got in the papers speaking of his hope to command a federal army against Boston. Finally, the day before the scheduled Inauguration Day (then March 4), a partisan Electoral Commission duly declared Hayes the winner. Though an honest man, "His Fraudulency" was unable to govern effectively because of the stigma of how he entered the office. His term was marked by control of the national government slipping from the voters to the robber barons, where it has remained ever since.

    In the Republican dominated popular press, powerful images of courageous black soldiers and former slaves taking on the responsibilities of citizenship gave way to ludicrous caricatures of chicken-stealing, coon-hunting simpletons, and the promise of equal justice for all was lost.

    Replies: @Pierre de Craon

  • How much of the extraordinary behavior of antifa lowlifes in 2020, such as in Kenosha, was due to the newer P2P recipe Mexican meth that according to reporter Sam Quinones tend to induce effects resembling paranoid schizophrenia in users? If there's a paranoia-inducing drug going around, the mainstream media should be more prudent about spreading...
  • @Zero Philosopher
    Steve Sailer:

    "How much of the extraordinary behavior of antifa lowlifes in 2020, such as in Kenosha, was due to the newer P2P recipe Mexican meth that according to reporter Sam Quinones tend to induce effects resembling paranoid schizophrenia in users?"

    Steve Sailer, you are showing your absolute ignorance of organic chemistry with this c0mment. P2P, or phenyl-2-propanone, is the *classic* raw material for making both amphetamine and methamphetamine. When German chemists made amphetamine for the first time way, way, way back in 1889, phenyl-2-propanone was the starting material. There is nothing "new" about this. Amphetamine is made by reductively aminating P2P under pressure in the presence of hydrogen. That removes the Oxygen atom from P2P and turns it into amphetamine. Likewise, methamphetamine is made from P2P by combining it with methylamine and then reducing it, again, under pressure with hydrogen. This "catalytic hydrogenation" that, in this case, results in a reducitve alkylation. Again, basic organic chemistry that you seem to be oblivious to. Methamphetamine is nothing more than amphetamine with a methyl group added to it. It is, chemically, N-methyl-amphetamine. "Methylated amphetamine". The addition of the methyl group makes the molecule more active than amphetamine because it is more able to cross the blood-brain barrier as well as cellular membranes. Cell membranes are composed mostly of phospholipids, so the addition of a methyl group to amphetamine makes it more able to enter neurons because it makes the molecule more lipophilic(fat-soluble).

    And methamphetamine made by this method, or by any other method such as the Birch reduction of ephedrine, yields exactly the same molecule with exactly the same effects. It makes no difference whether the molecule is made by one chemical synthesis or another. In fact, if you want to get technical, you can argue that meth made via P2P is "weaker" than that made from ephedrine, because the P2P reduction yields methamphetamine racemate, which is a mixture of both levo-rotatory and dextro-rotatory isomers of meth. The ephedrine reduction, conversely, yields d-methamphetamine. The dextro-rotatory isomer of meth is the more active one, so meth made via P2P will be "weaker" because 50% of it by molar mass will be the levo-rotatory isomer which is only active in the peripheral nervous system and not in the CNS.

    So basically, you are wrong on *all* counts!

    "If there’s a paranoia-inducing drug going around, the mainstream media should be more prudent about spreading paranoia-inducing conspiracy theories about evil white males."

    Sigh...all dopaminergic psychostimulants, by definition, can trigger psychosis in overdose or after prolonged use. This is not exclusive to methamphetamine, let alone to meth made via the P2P method(wich is exactly the same molecule as meth made by any other method). Ever heard of "cocaine bugs"?

    Any drug that either releases dopamine and/or inhibits the dopamine transporter has the potential to induce paranoia/psychosis. Like the P2P synthesis of meth, this is nothing new. Cocaine, amphetamine, meth, phenmetrazine, hell, even methylphenidate(given to school children to treat ADHD) can induce psychosis due to excesive stimulation of dopamine receptors.

    Man, your ignorance is astounding! This is the kind of ignorant scare-mongering typical of right-wingers that makes liberals make fun of how stupid you sound.

    Also, drug use is a much bigger problem in the Right than in the Left right now. The opiate crisis affects mostly Right-wing conservative voters.

    Replies: @El Dato, @Daniel H, @YetAnotherAnon, @Inquiring Mind, @Zoos, @Hapalong Cassidy, @Gabe Ruth, @Jack D, @Carol, @That Would Be Telling, @Captain Tripps, @Rob, @Tom Paine, @Mr. Anon, @Stebbing Heuer

    Has anyone tried feeding mice huge doses of L-methamphetamine to mice to see if it causes serious brain damage? Or racemic meth vs equal (or half the dose) of D-amphetamine to see if racemic meth causes more brain damage?

    When users are given racemic meth, do they use twice the dose, or does the parasympathetic effect of L seem somewhat satisfying to them? Has this ever been tested in the lab? I can this not passing an ethics board for human experimentation.

    It could just be that meth today is so much cheaper than people who would have had to take a weekend off meth after being awake for five days can now be awake for a few weeks straight.

    Oh, duh. “Biker meth” can be more potent than “Sudafed meth,” if the latter was a lot less pure. 50% racemic meth has more D isomer than 10% meth of pure D cut with baby formula.

    Those cartels, always with a quality product.

    Or has some brilliant underground chemist figured out how to do the reduction stereospecifically?

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Rob


    Has anyone tried feeding mice huge doses of L-methamphetamine to mice to see if it causes serious brain damage?
     
    Someone must have because L-methamphetamine is approved as an over the counter nasal inhaler.

    Or has some brilliant underground chemist figured out how to do the reduction stereospecifically?
     
    Zero already said that if you start with Sudafed you get only the right hand isomer.
  • @Zero Philosopher
    @That Would Be Telling

    Sigh...what I meant is that the centrally active isomer of meth is the dextro-rotatory one, d-meth. When we say "meth", we are refering only to the "D" isomer, as the "L" one is inactive outside the brain. The "L" isomer is present, for instance, in Vick's inhaler, as the peripheral vasoconstriction that it causes is good for sinusitis and other sinus problems. But it does not produce a "high".

    So when you make meth from P2P, you get 50% "active" meth and 50% "inactive" meth. The "active" meth(dextro-N-methyl-amphetamine) is just as potent as the pure d-meth you can from ephedrine reduction. But the *yield* of P2P synthesis is only 50% of that from ephedrine.

    Sorry for the confusion, but there is no contradiction in what I said. When I said that a molecule is a molecule regardless of how it is made, I was talking about d-meth, which is exactly as potent whether you make it from P2P or from ephedrine. But making it from P2P gives you only 50% of the amount of meth from mol of starting material. Understand? I should have phrased it better. My mistake was using the word "weaker". This is how I should have phrased it:

    "The synthesis of meth from P2P yields only 50% of that from ephedrine, so you need twice the
    dose of meth from P2P than from ephedrine to get equally high."

    My mistake was using the word "weaker", when I should have instead used the expression "more diluted" instead. If you "cut" meth made from ephedrine with baking powder or sugar 50/50, than it will be eqaully as strong as meth made from P2P. Understand how?

    Replies: @Rob

    Ok, so L-meth is an otc(?) drug. Is it snorted or smoked? I guess it is sniffed. What is the daily dose of a Vicks spray/inhaler/whatevs compared to what the typical speedfreak gets in a day? Cuz, y’know drug abusers use a lot of drug.

    A quick googling suggested that a typical “abuser”-tier dose is 50 mg. I assume that D-meth, so double it for users of racemic meth. The half-life is roughly 10 hours. Meth users are notorious for not sleeping, so I’ll ballpark that at 250 mg/day of racemic meth. That’s 125 mg of L-meth, which has a longer half-life in vivo, so meth users are likely building up higher levels of L-meth.

    Another quick googling says Vicks inhalers are 50 mg total. 8 mg/day is a high-end estimate of “used as directed. So, meth addicts are getting 125/8 = 15.525 times the pharmaceutical dose. You say the additional methyl group compared to regular amphetamine makes it more hydrophobic, and it diffuses through cell membranes more easily. I am pretty sure then, that neither isomer is actively transported through the blood-brain barrier. They just seep in. Regardless of the lack of hedonic effect, L-meth is as present in the brain as D-meth, right?

    L-meth does affect the central nervous system, contra your assertion, releasing norepinephrine and epinephrine. The internet hints that L-meth is neurotoxic, I am too lazy to do much searching.

    The latest longer half-life, coupled with recreational drug users’ tendency to maintain a roughly steady-state high, implies that the level of L-meth in the body increases near-constantly over the length of a binge, which, if I understand correctly, might be a month of no sleep and steady methamphetamine use, no?

    So, a typical dose might be 15 times the high-end of legitimate use, coupled with CNS effects, including neurotoxicity. Coupled with D-meth’s neurotoxicity, and long-term, severe sleep deprivation.

    It totally seems possible that racemic meth is worse for one’s brain than pure D-meth. Because it is very plausible, but by no means certain, that a steady binge of x*(D-meth + L-meth) is more neurotoxic than a binge of x*D-meth, it really needs to be empirically investigated. Sooner rather than later, as the lower class and working class are fast becoming a meth-addled underclass. Granted, neoliberalism is largely responsible for immiserating the non-college part of the population. That is unlikely to change, so harm reduction seems like a reasonable course.

    Out of curiosity, what do meth users think of Desoxyn? Is the dose (5mg/pill) too small to bother with, or do they appreciate the cleaner drug?

    [MORE]

    I know we here at Steve’s place are liberals’ boogeymen because we realize that the progressive agenda will be smashed against the cold, hard rocks of human biodiversity, but we are neither bible thumpers nor “personal-responsibility-bootstraps” conservatives.

    We are far more pessimistic than that. We recognize that progs have “won” in that America will be a non-white country and will that show those racists cons! Progs, of course, also lose, because they have to live in third-world America, too.

    While Steve may have some details wrong on meth, he has the big picture right: the meth problem is worse than it was twenty years ago, and it was bad then. Furthermore, whatever money is behind Antifa has managed to weaponize street addicts. Rittenhouse put quite the damper on Antifa. He probably delayed a civil war. But the gutter folk will always want fifty bucks, so Antifa will rise again.

    A meth-fueled civil war will be fun for no one. A second American civil war might be the worst thing that has ever happened. America has so many nuclear weapons. Who knows what factions will end up with how many bombs. They might get used. Plus, America, even one filled with 150 million NAMs, is a huge prize for any foreign country. Russia seems poised to benefit greatly. China is also in the mix.

    You know that adage, “when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns? It applies to other things, too. Like “when believing biology real is Nazi, only Nazis will believe biology.” Very few people who understand the realities of the heritability of socially-relevant traits are as good-natured as Steve. He could be the only thing separating us from a reasonable biology-realist government and the alt-right being an alt-Reich. It was only five short years ago that Primary Candidate Trump energized a part of America that has zero political representation but represents a majority of white people. All those crowds chanting “build the wall”? Militias could be crafted from those crowds that would make human hash out of Antifa and whatever gangbangers progs could sweep out of the slums.

    Republicans plus populists could create a livable society. It would be poorer than America is today. Largely because the (prog) capitalist class sold our industrial base to Asia. Chinese want dollars so they buy American assets because Old America was so stable, low inflation, free, and capitalist-friendly.

    New America, though? Much less stable, as 2020’s rolling riots and the eight bullets in Kenosha that stopped them attest, inflation is high in New America. I heard an economist say that inflation is the rate of money buying less. But someone whose income has lost half its value will not be assuaged by “but the money is not getting less valuable right now. There is another possibility much worse than inflation. When the money buys less but wages do not increase. That’s just getting poorer. As for free? Remember wearing a mask for a year in Old America? No one else does, either. The fact that the establishment let up on the lockdowns for FloydFest shows that the CovidCrisis was not motivated solely by a desire to keep us safe. While I support everyone getting voluntarily vaccinated, the fact that so many Americans are against the vaccine is a direct result of vaccination being touted by people who also chant “death to (white) America!” Whatever you think of vaccines, the anti-vax sentiment shows that half the country does not trust the establishment. The elites will not respond by giving us more freedom and behaving more responsibly. Capital friendliness is also going bye-bye as “Americans” who do not have the cognitive ability to see the value of nationalist capitalism. AOC is the vanguard of the socialists. Likely they will be friendly to corporate capitalism as they drive the middle class into penury.

    We can no longer even discuss the reality of America, as the only acceptable “solution” for any problem is dismantling “whiteness.” I, for one, do not trust the ghetto population (average IQ of 75 or so) to separate “whiteness” from whites. I don’t trust Ibram ex-Henry Rogers Kendi to do that either.

    Tl;dr Conservatives R dum! Lol. Look at how progressives (who control every institution in the country) behaved under Orange Man Bad, particularly FloydFest. Do you want these people running everything when their only plan is to put some dumb blacks in everything for “equity”?

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Zero Philosopher
    @Rob

    L-methamphetamine is not centrally active at releasing dopamine, which is why it is not addictive and why it is not a controlled substance. And even it's noradrenergic activity is mostly restricted to the peripheral nervous sytem with only minor releases of norepinephrine from storage vesicles. So you'll get nothing out of using levo-methaphetamine except for a brutal headache when the efrfect wears off and your blood vessels dilate.

    Both meth isomers are neurotoxic, and the dextro-rotatory one is actually more. When dopamine is released, it is broken by the two monoamine oxidase enzymes, resulting in the creation of hydrogen peroxide and superoxide anion, both of which poison the mitochondria of neurons killing them. Using meth dramatically increases your odds of developing Parkinson's Disease. Meth also causes a strong inffammatory response in the brain involving cytokines, which makes your immune sysem attack your brain. Worse, it raises body temperature, which also damages the brain. Parkinson's Disease and senility are real consequences of heavy chronic use of meth.m If start using meth in your twenties heavily, but 45 you'll have the brain of an 85 year-old.

    As for what you said regarding politics, I do agree that liberalism has gone too far, and that "Wokeness" has nothing to do with classical liberalism. Classical liberalism respects private property, individual rights and believes that the government should create equality of *opportunities* and not equality of *results* . Wokeness is pure Marxism which has replaced class with "race". It's pure hatred of white people out of envy and spite, and I certainly don't agree with that. Liberals want equality of *opportunity* , while Marxists want equality of *outcomes* . That is a jey difference that conservatives make when confusing liberals with Marxists. I know that conservatives hate both, but the point is that there is a clear distinction between them. "Wokeness" is neo-Marxism, not liberalism.

    As for America becoming a non-white country..well, if you go back to the 1930's, many old family Americans protested lifting restrictions on the immigration of southern and eastern Europeans, as they were considered inferior to northwestern European stock. And even before that, going to the mid 1850's, WASPs complained about the immigration of Germans and Scandinavians on the grounds that they were inferior to Anglo-Saxons. Everybody thinks that they are better than everybody. That is Human nature. The problem with a lot of immigrants entering America now is not that they are non-white, but that they are uneducated and many might have criminal records back home. Immigration standards tended to be better.