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    I suppose I should get another Open Thread going before people begin to think I got Mossaded (bearing in mind the topic of the previous post). Speaking of that, a recent poll found that 42% think he was murdered, vs. 29% who buy into the suicide theory. Is this the US general public's most significant...
  • Is it possible for China or any developing third world country like the Philippines to stay off the poz and have grow rich at the same time, or are they mutually exclusive?

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    @4rw

    Just look at the Gulf States.

    , @notanon
    @4rw

    yes - poz makes it harder to develop

    the main caveat is if a country is on the front-line of imperial conflict (e.g. Ukraine, Japan etc) then it will be a lot harder cos the two main vectors of pozworld (US media and US govt) are combined whereas in more out of the way places the vector is mostly just US media.

    to counteract US media (and also native libertines who seem attracted to media work) what a country needs imo is some form of TV that promotes trad values, by stealth if necessary, especially for young children - by stealth i mean things like making kids cartoons based on mythology or history so things like traditional gender roles can be defended on the grounds of accuracy.

    for college age kids just don't fund any cultural Marxist degrees.

    imo the key thing is keeping the poz away from children until they reach full maturity (which on average is early 20s imo).

    Replies: @Philip Owen

    , @songbird
    @4rw

    I think it is possible, but it would probably require a regime-led strategy. It may also require a certain type of political system too.

    Congresses that meet longer are probably more susceptible to lobbying and subversion.
    For this reason, communism may have an increased immunity.

    I was just thinking about this striking fact: in the US, Congress didn't meet until 7 months after the sinking of the Lusitania. Definitely, wouldn't happen today. What is the reason for that? Airplanes? A growing swamp of corruption? Or is it just one facilitating the other?

    Replies: @Ghak

  • All elites need some kind of internal disciplinary mechanism for their polity to function. In traditional societies, it is mainly the aristocracy's sense of solidarity, noblesse oblige, feudal bonds, the Mannerbund institute. Though I don't mean to idealize it. It proved completely maladaptive come the industrial age. In totalitarian regimes, chiliastic ideology and repression/terror plays...
  • @Thorfinnsson
    @dfordoom

    A simpler theory is the elite liberation explanation for the sixties and its aftermath.

    Elites themselves wanted to engage in degeneracy, and this filtered down to the rest of society. This came first--look at Nelson Rockefeller for instance.

    Elites have the discipline to enjoy libertine lifestyles without suffering too much damage, proles do not.

    Clamping down on degeneracy would crimp their own lifestyles, and would in any case be "wrong".

    I don't buy the argument that this was done for economic consumption. Families buy all kinds of things.

    The bioleninism theory is good, but it probably wasn't obvious to anyone sixty years ago that today there'd be a caste of sexual perverts who would be loyal foot soldiers for the regime.

    The one sinister motive that does make a lot of sense as being part of a master plan is mobilizing women into the full-time permanent workforce (women have always worked). This also specifically took propaganda to accomplish.

    Replies: @4rw, @dfordoom, @Beckow, @iffen

    So what is the reason why older elites like the Victorian elites, Confucian scholar gentry, or medieval nobility might espouse socially conservative ideology?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @4rw

    The source of their wealth was more closely connected to the moral health of the toiling classes.

    Christianity as the dominant religion/ideology also meant one's own social status was partly tied to good moral behavior.

    , @Philip Owen
    @4rw

    Medieval English mobility were totally depraved. So we're their 18th C ancestors. These things seem to go in cycles. When inequality rises, so does elite depravity.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  • sorry to be such a grouch, but isn’t Spandrell talking about a social loser like himselg, he seems to be of above average intelligence, but clearly isn’t good at using that to make a lot of money, and is stuck as a dissident right writer, so he is in effect talking about himself, sounds like an incel too.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @4rw

    I don't follow Spandrell closely, but if I recall correctly, he said some years ago that he runs his own business and that he was getting married. I understood his blog to be some kind of intellectual hobby. Moldbug also had a job, a wife, and at least one kid, and clearly was having an enormous amount of fun writing Unqualified Reservations.

  • I mean since society is inherently hierarchical in nature, isn’t there a way steer the system towards elite systems that are less harmful in nature compared to Globohomo, as I said, the old Cominterm, feudalism, European style absolute monarchy, and a quasi theocracy run by a Confucian scholar gentry class is preferable to the present neoliberal Globohomo system.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @4rw


    isn’t there a way steer the system towards elite systems that are less harmful in nature compared to Globohomo, as I said, the old Cominterm, feudalism, European style absolute monarchy, and a quasi theocracy run by a Confucian scholar gentry class is preferable to the present neoliberal Globohomo system.
     
    Marxist societies seem to go though brief periods of craziness (the Soviet Union under Lenin, the Cultural Revolution in China) but then they realise that they have to construct functional societies and the craziness gets quietly dropped. Marxist elites learn that reality trumps theory. Our current elites seem to be incapable of understanding this.
  • @Mitleser
    @4rw


    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses? After all Republican Roman elites were very conservative and spread their conservative Roman values called gravitas among the populace
     
    Republican Roman elites did also stop doing that and embrace degeneracy.

    https://twitter.com/PyotrNemets/status/1127288655712645120

    Replies: @4rw

    Well if elite concentration is unavoidable, how can it be incentivised in a way which disincentivices deviancy, which was how elites functioned before the 60s? And about giving low status people status, giving some low status people high status might be less bad than giving other types of low status people high status, for example, giving straight women, or rural Southern white men and women, or talented tenth conservative blacks, or socially conservative Asian people like Twinkie a higher status than they did in the 30s may be a good idea, if only in order to expand the size of the conservative demographics, and is a lot better than giving gays and other sexual deviants, or 70 IQ blacks a high status in the power structure, or a butch black lesbian transexual. And about types of Marxism, some types of Marxism are preferable to others, if that is your only choice, for example, the Soviet geriatric Cominterm run by people like Brezhnev and Andropov, for all of its downsides, is at least still livable, and not not utterly disgusting like the present day Hominterm, and even Karlin pointed this out in the Soviet freezer theory.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @4rw


    And about types of Marxism, some types of Marxism are preferable to others, if that is your only choice, for example, the Soviet geriatric Cominterm run by people like Brezhnev and Andropov, for all of its downsides, is at least still livable, and not not utterly disgusting like the present day Hominterm, and even Karlin pointed this out in the Soviet freezer theory
     
    .

    Agreed.

    Replies: @Swarthy Greek

  • Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses? After all Republican Roman elites were very conservative and spread their conservative Roman values called gravitas among the populace, and likewise medieval nobility were very conservative and spread Christianity by the sword if necessary, like what happened in the Baltics, and Victorian and Edwardian elites were also conservative, which encouraged conservative behavior among the Victorian middle class.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @4rw


    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses? After all Republican Roman elites were very conservative and spread their conservative Roman values called gravitas among the populace
     
    Republican Roman elites did also stop doing that and embrace degeneracy.

    https://twitter.com/PyotrNemets/status/1127288655712645120

    Replies: @4rw

    , @War for Blair Mountain
    @4rw

    Because a system created by perverts selects for perverts......and it gets entrenched.....

    , @dfordoom
    @4rw


    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses?
     
    To demoralise them and make them easier to control? To destroy the family because it's an alternative focus of loyalty? To encourage a culture of consumption and hedonism which is good for the corporate bottom line?

    Plus if you accept the bioleninism theory those degenerates will be loyal foot soldiers of the elites?

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @notanon
    @4rw


    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses?
     
    historically elites have often been morally corrupt themselves but yeah they almost always preached socially conservative values to the lower classes to maintain social stability so what's happened post 1960s is strange and unusual.

    the timing correlates with the domination of culture by TV so a simple explanation might be the people who came to dominate TV after its invention were different from the average e.g. more promiscuous, more homosexual, more contrarian etc. than the average.

    it could be people attracted to showbiz have always been that way but back before TV wandering troupes of actors and musicians didn't have the same cultural influence.

    a counter to that might be it wouldn't necessarily matter if the people working in TV/cinema were more degenerate than the average if the owners weren't as they could block it but then maybe the same argument applies i.e. maybe the people who are attracted to the business side of showbiz also choose that path cos it's full of attractive young people willing to prostitute themselves for a career?

    that would seem to fit the #metoo thing.

    so i think the simplest answer is technology changed and that change allowed a previously buried aspect of human nature to become culturally dominant.

    (there are other explanations but this is the simplest imo - every piece of new tech solves some problems and creates new ones)