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    Transparency International has released the Global Corruption Barometer 2016 for Europe: The map above shows the answer to the most interesting question in the survey: "Did you or any member of your household make an unofficial payment or gift when using [a public service] over the past 12 months"? In the last survey from 2013,...
  • @inertial
    Did you or any member of your household make an unofficial payment or gift when using [a public service] over the past 12 months?

    They only ask if you made a gift or payment, not if you had to make it in order to get services. And services listed here include public education and medical services. My wife gives Christmas gifts to our kids' schoolteachers. Does this count as corruption?

    I know that in Russia parents not only give gifts to teachers but collect money to pay for various school needs. So every parent with a school kid will answer yes to this question. And how about the old Soviet custom where satisfied patients give their doctors unofficial gifts such as a box of chocolates or a bottle of wine?

    Replies: @melanf, @Baldur Dasche

    “Did you or any member of your household make an unofficial payment or gift when using [a public service] over the past 12 months?”

    Bouquets of Flowers which are mandatory gift for school teachers on 1 September – are considered a gift?

    The General opinion in Russia that petty corruption has decreased significantly.

  • Source: Report: There were problems with data collection in Argentina, Kazakhstan, and Malaysia, so their results must be treated with caution. Furthermore: "Because the results of Kazakhstan in 2015 are based only on multiple-choice items, they cannot be reliably compared to the results of other countries, nor to Kazakhstan’s results in previous assessments" (pp. 81...
  • It takes into account the difference in relation to the tests in different countries? As far as I know (from stories of expats) In Japan and South Korea, the tests are very important – in many cases people have to pass a test for IQ when trying to get a job. As a result, people specifically trained to pass these tests.

    In Russia, the IQ tests are perceived as a funny curiosity – these tests are considered to be entertainment

  • Rapidly becoming who I am. So I have fulfilled the demands of some of my most committed detractors and self-deported myself back to Russia. My first sociological observation on landing in Domodedova this Tuesday, and perhaps the one most germane to Unz.com readers, was that about 100% of the airport cleaning stuff were Uzbeks and...
  • @Anonymous
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Recommendations on anywhere else to visit as a tourist, besides Moscow and Saint Petersburg, that are in the western part of the country? Would Koenigsberg / Kaliningrad have sites of interest for a tourist (I include local symphony, ballet, and pro hockey teams, all of which are of interest to us. Thanks for the help....

    Replies: @melanf

    Crimea has no equal in the concentration of natural and historical sites (palaces, parks, ancient cities, scarlet lakes, mountains, caves ) http://aquatek-filips.livejournal.com/1288395.html

    From St. Petersburg it is interesting to visit to Ruskeala (the trip takes one day)

  • In the spirit of #SkinInTheGame, Taleb's idea that pundits should at least stake their reputations on the strength of their knowledge, last year I made some predictions about what has come to be known as The Current Year. Like Scott Alexander, I am calibrating my predictions by comparing the percentage of predictions I got right...
  • In 1 “The Syrian government will control a larger proportion of territory in a year’s time relative to today” you are formally right. The prediction made before the start of the offensive the forces of Assad against ISIS. After this offensive, Assad has lost part of the reconquered territories , but of the part reconquered territories kept under control. On other fronts the territory under the control of Damascus has increased too.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Thanks, but I looked at the maps of Syria in late December 2015/early January and today, and whereas the SAA were at the very gates of Palmyra back then they have now been driven 50km away, together with huge chunks of the adjoining desert, and have been almost encircled at Tiyas airbase.

    I did foolishly define success there in terms of territory, so technically speaking I lost, even though as I mentioned the capture of Aleppo is strategically far more important than the reversal in Palmyra. However, I can't exactly go back and redefine things in my favor.

  • The reason I don't write much about Russia's demographics nowadays is that there isn't much point to it. Up until the early 2010s, the Western media was brimming with misinformation about the subject - what we now call #fakenews - so refuting it was both profitable and easy. Incredibly easy. You didn't really have to...
  • @Philip Owen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    In the first half of the 20th C only two countries transitioned from agrarian to industrial. Japan and Russia. (In both cases the process was well underway by the 1880's and education was a strong component). Russia did shift peasants but compared to Western EU countries, it still has a large proportion of its population living in rural areas. Just abandoning villages is still a way forward for economic growth through adding more people. Commercial farmers prefer to avoid the drunks, still common in villages, by moving or bussing in people from nearby towns when possible. And there is the eternal problem of motivating the Muzhik. I am reading a book written in 1905 by an Englishman who arrived in Russia in 1871. It explains a lot. Forget the Soviet experience, it might never have happened. Nicholas I carries more responsibility for modern Russia good and ill, than Stalin.

    Replies: @melanf, @Herzog

    “Nicholas I carries more responsibility for modern Russia good and ill, than Stalin.”

    And how Nicholas I determined the fate of Russia? It was an honest man of average abilities, who follow the course of events. Russia has not undergone a revolutionary transformation under the rule of Nicholas I

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    Nicholas I did some good work in economic and technical development; he was an engineer by training. For example, he pushed for the railway line from St Petersburg to Moscow.

    He also created modern Eurasianism, a style of thought which still afflicts Russia. He set up the Third Department, bureaucratically, the ancestor of the MVD and KGB. He managed to get Britain and France to combine with Turkey and Austria against him by launching an attack to capture Constantinople via Bessarabia. (The ultimate aim was the conquest of India). This is the source of the continuing Russian reputation for political aggression.

    This is a taster. There is much else to discuss. You can research it yourself.

    Replies: @5371, @melanf

  • @Philip Owen
    @Boris N

    And yet, I travel for 3.5 hours from Saratov to Penza and see almost no villages and certainly no towns. The biggest buildings are a modern pig farm. From a city of 1.5 million to one of 0.5 million, there is no highway and the condition of the road is appalling. In Russia, no one leaves their city to look for nature, except as a tourist.

    But then again, the river Hopper in East Voronezh is almost dead with excess nitrogen fertilizer run off but people still believe beavers live somewhere along its banks.

    Replies: @melanf, @Boris N

    “In Russia, no one leaves their city to look for nature, except as a tourist”

    Complete nonsense. Or is this a joke?

    • Replies: @Gerard1234
    @melanf

    Has to be a joke

    , @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    Lots of people go fishing, camping, skiing and visit their dachas but get past the honeypots and you do not see Sunday drivers deep in the countryside. People do not take cars for a spin along the Volga or into the desert just to look.

    Replies: @melanf, @Boris N

  • @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    Nicholas I did some good work in economic and technical development; he was an engineer by training. For example, he pushed for the railway line from St Petersburg to Moscow.

    He also created modern Eurasianism, a style of thought which still afflicts Russia. He set up the Third Department, bureaucratically, the ancestor of the MVD and KGB. He managed to get Britain and France to combine with Turkey and Austria against him by launching an attack to capture Constantinople via Bessarabia. (The ultimate aim was the conquest of India). This is the source of the continuing Russian reputation for political aggression.

    This is a taster. There is much else to discuss. You can research it yourself.

    Replies: @5371, @melanf

    “He (Nicholas I) also created modern Eurasianism, ”

    Definitely not

    ” He set up the Third Department, bureaucratically, the ancestor of the MVD and KGB.”

    before Nicholas similar state organizations have existed for hundreds years in different countries

    “He managed to get Britain and France to combine with Turkey and Austria against him by launching an attack to capture Constantinople via Bessarabia. (The ultimate aim was the conquest of India). This is the source of the continuing Russian reputation for political aggression.”

    About India – propaganda nonsense.
    As Nicholas has determined the fate of Russia in a greater degree than Stalin – I don’t understand

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    "As Nicholas has determined the fate of Russia in a greater degree than Stalin – I don’t understand" Exactly so.

  • @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    Lots of people go fishing, camping, skiing and visit their dachas but get past the honeypots and you do not see Sunday drivers deep in the countryside. People do not take cars for a spin along the Volga or into the desert just to look.

    Replies: @melanf, @Boris N

    “People do not take cars for a spin along the Volga or into the desert just to look.”

    Perhaps such travel in Russia is less common than in other countries, but in Russia there are definitely fans of such tourism.

    Maybe a little popularity of such trips caused by low population density – to see the wild forest, no need to go far. Here’sa lake in forest within the administrative boundaries of St. Petersburg (near my home). In most large cities of the world, such wild places are absent

  • Here is why Russia also needs a BBW (Turkestan edition): Number of births: Red = Russia; Green = Central Asia (Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan). In 1897, there were ten times fewer people in Russian Turkestan than within the modern borders of the Russian Federation. Today, they constitute 50% of the Russian Federation's population. They...
  • @anonymous
    Outside of Moscow is there anywhere in Russia even when out of recession that is prosperous enough to provide lots of jobs for a lot of Central Asian migrants?

    Replies: @melanf, @Philip Owen

    “Outside of Moscow is there anywhere in Russia even when out of recession that is prosperous enough to provide lots of jobs for a lot of Central Asian migrants?”

    In St. Petersburg right now a lot of migrant workers

  • The (excellent) historical journal Arzamas has a quiz, now translated into English, about your political compass location in the context of 1917 Russia. You can take it here: My own result, probably unsurprisingly, was Black Hundreds.
  • @German_reader
    @Anatoly Karlin

    "continuing the war was obviously the correct decision from the POV of Russian national interests"

    I understand how it looked like this at the time, though in the end the results of that failed offensive in the summer of 1917 proved rather counter-productive from the point of view of the provisional government and arguably detrimental to Russia... But given German territorial ambitions I assume it wouldn't have been easy to try to extricate Russia from the war through a negotiated settlement. And of course it would have been hard to accept that hundreds of thousands had died in vain with nothing to show for it (which was true for the other combatants as well and a strong reason to continue fighting).

    Replies: @5371, @melanf

    “But given German territorial ambitions (in 1917)”

    When von Ludendorff was de facto ruler of Germany? It was impossible

  • The final figures for life expectancy and TFR in total and for the regions have been released today. The Rosstat computations give an estimate of TFR = 1.76 children per woman and LE = 71.9 years for 2016, which are pretty close to my rough estimates a month ago. The total population is estimated to...
  • @neutral
    That Jewish Autonomous Oblast is just another good example of the double standards when it comes to jews. Nobody would have ever given the Germans their own oblast, even though there was once a big German population in Russia, yet Stalin only gave the jews their own autonomous region but he is still called an anti semite.

    Replies: @Hector_St_Clare, @melanf

    “Nobody would have ever given the Germans their own oblast”

    Currently in Russia there are Azovsky German National District ( Deutscher Nationalkreis Asowo) near Omsk and German Ethnic District (Deutscher Nationalrajon) in Altai

  • Immigration statistics from the Ministry of Interior Affairs, 2016. Total new citizenships: 265,319. (USA: 653,416 people in 2014, so about equal in per capita terms). Ukraine: 100,696, up 49% from 2015. (Russians becoming Ukrainian citizens: About 2,000 per year). It is utterly absurd that in per capita terms, there are as many Tajiks (0.27% of...
  • Based on these data, 75% of new citizens come from Christian Nations, and 24% from Islamic Nations.

  • @neutral
    I am interested in some those states with just 1, who and why are people from Togo, Burundi, Mali,Sierra Leon, etc, going to Russia, and why are they being let in ?

    Replies: @melanf

    Most likely it is the children from mixed families, or wives/husbands of citizens of Russia

  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • @guy
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I noticed that if you suggest that the varangians of kievan rus were swedes, both ukrainians and russians get angry. Is svidomism like your example basically a calmer extension of the balkan/indian/turkish flame war propaganda?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @melanf

    I noticed that if you suggest that the varangians of kievan rus were swedes, both ukrainians and russians get angry.

    For Ukraine will not say, but in Russia the fact that varangians were vikings is quite generally accepted. This is not only written in the textbooks, but also it is common place historical novels, movies, etc.

    • Replies: @guy
    @melanf

    I would downplay it a bit from the viking conquest narrative, because the varangians had substantial support from the ilmen slavs and ingrians in the north and kryvich slavs in the south since they were able to organize against the khazars, maintain trade routes, and organize very successful raiding expeditions.

    , @AP
    @melanf


    For Ukraine will not say, but in Russia the fact that varangians were vikings is quite generally accepted
     
    True, as is also true of Ukrainians usually, but both Russian and Ukrainians exaggerate how early the Varangians were Slavicized, and then argue with each other about whether these dubiously Slavicized Vikings were Russians or Ukrainians.

    For example, there is Yaroslav the Wise (aka Jarisleif the Lame in the Norse sagas).

    His mother was the Scandinavian woman Ragnhild, his father Vladimir - himself probably fully Scandinavian but perhaps half-Scandinavian (Vladimir's father was fully Scandinavian, there is controversy about whether Vladimir's mother was Scandinavian Malfried or Slavic Malusha though the former is suggested to be more likely). Jarisleif, whose power base involved Scandinavian troops, married Ingegerd Olofsdotter, the daughter of Sweden's king. What language do you think they spoke to each other and to their children?

    Jarisleif has been featured on currencies and monuments in both Ukraine and Russia. It's like a Mayan in Mexico and an Afro-Cuban each claiming that Hernan Cortes was one of their own.

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

  • As one of the world's leading activists against the Putin regime, I had no choice but to show up on Tverskaya Street today, to fight for your freedom and mine. As expected, turnout wasn't particularly high. Although the area around the Pushkin Monument was crowded, it only extended to half a block in every direction....
  • @anonymous coward
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Peter the Great – 10
     
    Absolutely haram, Peter I ranks only slightly above Lenin in insanity and cumulative leftist damage to progeny.

    Replies: @melanf

    Peter I ranks only slightly above Lenin in insanity and cumulative leftist

    Peter I – leftist?
    О_o!
    He, among other things, introduced in Russia the death penalty for homosexuality. Also Peter was the most hard Islamophob among the Russian tsars.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    Peter I – leftist?
     
    He was a Westernizer and extreme anti-traditionalist. I'm not sure that makes him a leftist though. Would Ataturk be considered a leftist?

    Replies: @melanf

  • @AP
    @melanf


    Peter I – leftist?
     
    He was a Westernizer and extreme anti-traditionalist. I'm not sure that makes him a leftist though. Would Ataturk be considered a leftist?

    Replies: @melanf

    Peter I – leftist?

    He was a Westernizer and extreme anti-traditionalist

    Based on these criteria, all great rulers-modernizers must be considered leftists. Starting with Cyrus the Younger and Herod the Great

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    Based on these criteria, all great rulers-modernizers must be considered leftists
     
    Maybe. If by leftist one means opposed to tradition, then modernization usually has something to do with leftism, although this need not necessarily be the case. Bismarck's and Stolypin's reforms seem to have been traditionalist in nature.

    As for Peter and Ataturk - come to think of it, their efforts seem to have been more about the importation of foreign values and practices. Anti-traditionalist certainly with respect to their native cultures, but it doesn't seem to be particularly liberal.

    Replies: @whahae

  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • @AP

    Romanov dynasty in late Imperial Russia was ethnically German. This does not mean that Russia did not exist. Nicholas II, despite having like 1/16 of Russian blood in him, was still very much a Russian Tsar.
     
    Enter the Russian nationalist myth-believer, just as silly as a Ukrainian one.

    Romanovs were originally a Russian dynasty, who over the centuries mixed with non-Russian aristocrats who adopted the Russian faith and language with marriage. Rurikids were Scandinavians, who kept a rather pure Scandinavian bloodline (among the rulers of Kiev, at least) almost into the 12th century. While there were a lot of Baltic Germans in the Russian military and bureaucracy, "German" Romanovs didn't mostly depend on German military units and weren't seizing the throne with German troops. AFAIK they didn't employ German nannies and teachers sent from Germany to maintain a German identity, either, as did Rurikids.

    It’s also worth mentioning that the vikings established a number of European dynasties, including the House of Normandy, which later came to rule medeval England. This does not mean that William the Conqueror was a ‘Swede’.
     
    Normans were French-speaking. Unlike the Rurikids, the Vikings who ruled Normandy seemed to have mixed with the locals extensively. William the Conqueror may have been only 1/8 Viking. He's considered a Norman king of England, not an Englishman.

    Replies: @5371, @melanf

    Romanovs were originally a Russian dynasty, who over the centuries mixed with non-Russian aristocrats who adopted the Russian faith and language with marriage. Rurikids were Scandinavians, who kept a rather pure Scandinavian bloodline (among the rulers of Kiev, at least) almost into the 12th century. While there were a lot of Baltic Germans in the Russian military and bureaucracy, “German” Romanovs didn’t mostly depend on German military units and weren’t seizing the throne with German troops.

    In respect of Yaroslav the Wise, this is a ridiculous argument. Yaroslav came to power based on the Novgorod army. One of the episodes of that era – in the year 1015, the inhabitants of Novgorod massacred Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav. Yaroslav in retaliation lured to a feast and massacred the Novgorod aristocracy. However, after that Yaroslav was forced to beg forgiveness from the residents of Novgorod.

    As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    The Russian svidomists have mobilized.


    In respect of Yaroslav the Wise, this is a ridiculous argument. Yaroslav came to power based on the Novgorod army. One of the episodes of that era – in the year 1015, the inhabitants of Novgorod massacred Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav. Yaroslav in retaliation lured to a feast and massacred the Novgorod aristocracy. However, after that Yaroslav was forced to beg forgiveness from the residents of Novgorod.
     
    So the pure Scandinavian Yaroslav, massacred Slavs who had dared to kill Yaroslav's Scandinavian allies, and later married a Swedish princes, and Yaroslav is a Russian Slav. Priceless.

    Britannica states "Yaroslav, with the active support of the Novgorodians and the help of Varangian (Viking) mercenaries, defeated Svyatopolk and became the grand prince of Kiev in 1019."

    Yaroslav continued to depend on Norse warriors from Scandinavia, such as Jakun:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakun

    As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant

     

    Well, one of these Scandinavians with a Slavic name, Vladimir, lived in Norway and gathered an army there with which he seized the Kievan throne. I guess he didn't consider himself a Scandinavian but a Slav, right? Speaking of which -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Valdemar I of Denmark or Waldemar the Great (1131–1182)
    Valdemar II of Denmark or Waldemar the Victorious (1170–1241)
    Valdemar the Young (1209–1231)
    Valdemar III of Denmark (1314–1364)
    Waldemar I, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1368)
    Waldemar II, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1371)
    Valdemar IV of Denmark or Waldemar Otherday (c. 1320–1375)
    Waldemar III, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1391)
    Valdemar of Denmark (bishop) (1157/1158–1235 or 1236)
    Prince Valdemar of Denmark (1858–1939)
    Waldemar, Margrave of Brandenburg-Stendal or Waldemar the Great (c. 1280–1319)
    Prince Waldemar of Prussia (1868–1879), son of Emperor Frederick III
    Prince Waldemar of Prussia (1889–1945), son of Prince Henry
    Woldemar, Prince of Lippe (1824–1895)

    And don't forget Valdemar, King of Sweden (1250–1275).

    All of these were Ancient Russians because their name, right? :-)

    Replies: @melanf

  • @AP
    @5371


    You have no idea what nannies and teachers the rulers of ancient Russia used.
     
    "Ancient Russia" - Russian svidomism at its best.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sviatoslav_I_of_Kiev

    "Sviatoslav was tutored by a Varangian named Asmud.[10] The tradition of employing Varangian tutors for the sons of ruling princes survived well into the 11th century."

    What you think you know about most of their marriages and the military units they depended on ain’t so.
     
    So Vladimir didn't go into exile to Norway, didn't gather a group of Norse warriors, and didn't seize the Kievan thrown with those Norse warriors?

    And Yaroslav didn't also seize the throne with an army whose core consisted of Scandinavian warriors under Eymund and Ragnar?

    Replies: @5371, @melanf, @Anatoly Karlin

    So Vladimir didn’t go into exile to Norway, didn’t gather a group of Norse warriors, and didn’t seize the Kievan thrown with those Norse warriors?

    Is this a joke? Vladimir was never in Norway. But four of the Norwegian king, was at different times in exile in “Ancient Russia”

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    "So Vladimir didn’t go into exile to Norway, didn’t gather a group of Norse warriors, and didn’t seize the Kievan thrown with those Norse warriors?"

    Is this a joke? Vladimir was never in Norway.
     
    I see that Russian svidomism has met reality and disapproves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great

    After Sviatoslav's death at the hands of the Pechenegs in 972, a fratricidal war erupted in 976 between Yaropolk and his younger brother Oleg, ruler of the Drevlians. In 977, Vladimir fled to his kinsman Haakon Sigurdsson, ruler of Norway, collecting as many Norse warriors as he could to assist him to recover Novgorod.

    Russian wiki is less specific:

    Владимир при этом известии бежал в варяжские земли. Всей Русью стал править Ярополк Святославич.

    Тем временем, Владимир «за морем» набрал с Добрыней войско и в 980 году вернулся в Новгород, выгнав посадника Ярополка

    That's right, a Scandinavian ruler, moves to Norway, gathers around himself Norse warriors with whom he seizes the throne, is an Ancient Russian Slav.

    But four of the Norwegian king, was at different times in exile in “Ancient Russia”
     
    Since the state they exiled themselves to was run by fellow Scandinavians this is natural.
  • @AP
    @5371


    Ancient Russia it was, just as we speak of France, not Gaul, already from the sixth century.
     
    Actually nowadays "Ancient France" is usually and more accurately referred to as the Frankish Kingdom, Frankia, etc. France begins later. Britannica, I suppose, represents modern consensus:

    Emergence of France

    "From the 9th to the 11th century the peoples and lands dominated by western Frankish kings were transformed. The Carolingian protectorate of local order collapsed under the pressures of external invasions and internal usurpations of power. Growing populations and quickening economies were reorganized in principalities whose leaders struggled to carry on the old programs of kings, bishops, and monks; one of these lands, centred on the Paris-Orléans axis and later known as the Île-de-France, was the nucleus of a new dynastic kingdom of France. This kingdom may be spoken of as Capetian France (the first king of the new dynasty having been Hugh Capet), but it was not until the 13th century that this France came to approximate the modern nation in territorial extent. The emergence of a greater France as a social and cultural entity preceded the political expansion of Capetian France; already in the 12th century Crusaders, when speaking of “Franks” from Romance-speaking lands, meant something like “Frenchmen,” while the persistence of old boundaries between populations of Romance and Germanic speech perpetuated the idea of a greater West Frankland."

    French thinking of the Germanic Frankish warrior chieftain Karl as an ancient "Frenchman" is also a form of svidomism.

    If you consult a full genealogy of the Rurikid dynasty, you will see that marriages to Scandinavians early became a small minority of all those contracted.
     
    Sure, but the actual princes of Kiev, the rulers of the state, maintained a pure Scandinavian bloodline up to Vissivald/Vsevolod, who ruled from 1078-1093. Vladimir, for example, had numerous wives, some of whom were not Scandinavians, but his successor after a period of warfare ended up being his son by Ragnhild of Polotsk.

    Rurik came over in around 860. Having rulers who hadn't been mixed with non-Scandinavians for 200 years is an impressive feat.

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf, @5371

    Sure, but the actual princes of Kiev, the rulers of the state, maintained a pure Scandinavian bloodline up to Vissivald/Vsevolod, who ruled from 1078-1093. Vladimir, for example, had numerous wives, some of whom were not Scandinavians, but his successor after a period of warfare ended up being his son by Ragnhild of Polotsk.

    It happened because all brothers of Yaroslav (Vladimir successor ) were killed, or died. The ethnic origin of the mother for the inheritance had absolutely nothing

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    It happened because all brothers of Yaroslav (Vladimir successor ) were killed, or died. The ethnic origin of the mother for the inheritance had absolutely nothing
     
    Absolute coincidence that the rulers of Kiev had a basically pure Scandinavian bloodline for 200 years since Rurik came to those lands.

    The likely explanation is that having two Scandinavian parents probably made it easier for the products of such unions to deal with and gather Norse troops, which played a critical role in struggles for power, at least through the 11th century.

    This state of affairs demonstrates the ridiculousness of thinking of the state at that time as a Slavic (thus, Russian or Ukrainian) one though both Russian and Ukrainian svidomists claim that its rulers were Russians or Ukrainians. Helga (Olga) is the funniest example. Her husband (Ingvar/Igor) was killed and ambushed by Slavs from whom he was collecting tribute (furs, slaves, etc). She avenged her husband's death by completely slaughtering those Slavs, burning them all alive in their town. So the mass killer of Slavs becomes celebrated as a Slavic Queen. (is this not akin to Fomenko's ideas about Mongols being really "us"?)

    Replies: @ussr andy

  • @AP
    @5371


    Ancient Russia it was, just as we speak of France, not Gaul, already from the sixth century.
     
    Actually nowadays "Ancient France" is usually and more accurately referred to as the Frankish Kingdom, Frankia, etc. France begins later. Britannica, I suppose, represents modern consensus:

    Emergence of France

    "From the 9th to the 11th century the peoples and lands dominated by western Frankish kings were transformed. The Carolingian protectorate of local order collapsed under the pressures of external invasions and internal usurpations of power. Growing populations and quickening economies were reorganized in principalities whose leaders struggled to carry on the old programs of kings, bishops, and monks; one of these lands, centred on the Paris-Orléans axis and later known as the Île-de-France, was the nucleus of a new dynastic kingdom of France. This kingdom may be spoken of as Capetian France (the first king of the new dynasty having been Hugh Capet), but it was not until the 13th century that this France came to approximate the modern nation in territorial extent. The emergence of a greater France as a social and cultural entity preceded the political expansion of Capetian France; already in the 12th century Crusaders, when speaking of “Franks” from Romance-speaking lands, meant something like “Frenchmen,” while the persistence of old boundaries between populations of Romance and Germanic speech perpetuated the idea of a greater West Frankland."

    French thinking of the Germanic Frankish warrior chieftain Karl as an ancient "Frenchman" is also a form of svidomism.

    If you consult a full genealogy of the Rurikid dynasty, you will see that marriages to Scandinavians early became a small minority of all those contracted.
     
    Sure, but the actual princes of Kiev, the rulers of the state, maintained a pure Scandinavian bloodline up to Vissivald/Vsevolod, who ruled from 1078-1093. Vladimir, for example, had numerous wives, some of whom were not Scandinavians, but his successor after a period of warfare ended up being his son by Ragnhild of Polotsk.

    Rurik came over in around 860. Having rulers who hadn't been mixed with non-Scandinavians for 200 years is an impressive feat.

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf, @5371

    By the way co-ruler Yaroslav was his elder brother Mstislav (from another mother). Yaroslav tried to get rid of Mstislav, but Mstislav’s Ossetian troops utterly defeated the Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav in 1024

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    By the way co-ruler Yaroslav was his elder brother Mstislav (from another mother).
     
    The origin of Mstslav's mother is unclear. The Russian historian Vernadsky states that Mstislav had the same Scandinavian mother as Yaroslav, other sources claim his mother was Czech.
  • @AP
    @melanf

    The Russian svidomists have mobilized.


    In respect of Yaroslav the Wise, this is a ridiculous argument. Yaroslav came to power based on the Novgorod army. One of the episodes of that era – in the year 1015, the inhabitants of Novgorod massacred Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav. Yaroslav in retaliation lured to a feast and massacred the Novgorod aristocracy. However, after that Yaroslav was forced to beg forgiveness from the residents of Novgorod.
     
    So the pure Scandinavian Yaroslav, massacred Slavs who had dared to kill Yaroslav's Scandinavian allies, and later married a Swedish princes, and Yaroslav is a Russian Slav. Priceless.

    Britannica states "Yaroslav, with the active support of the Novgorodians and the help of Varangian (Viking) mercenaries, defeated Svyatopolk and became the grand prince of Kiev in 1019."

    Yaroslav continued to depend on Norse warriors from Scandinavia, such as Jakun:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakun

    As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant

     

    Well, one of these Scandinavians with a Slavic name, Vladimir, lived in Norway and gathered an army there with which he seized the Kievan throne. I guess he didn't consider himself a Scandinavian but a Slav, right? Speaking of which -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar

    Valdemar I of Denmark or Waldemar the Great (1131–1182)
    Valdemar II of Denmark or Waldemar the Victorious (1170–1241)
    Valdemar the Young (1209–1231)
    Valdemar III of Denmark (1314–1364)
    Waldemar I, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1368)
    Waldemar II, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1371)
    Valdemar IV of Denmark or Waldemar Otherday (c. 1320–1375)
    Waldemar III, Prince of Anhalt-Zerbst (d. 1391)
    Valdemar of Denmark (bishop) (1157/1158–1235 or 1236)
    Prince Valdemar of Denmark (1858–1939)
    Waldemar, Margrave of Brandenburg-Stendal or Waldemar the Great (c. 1280–1319)
    Prince Waldemar of Prussia (1868–1879), son of Emperor Frederick III
    Prince Waldemar of Prussia (1889–1945), son of Prince Henry
    Woldemar, Prince of Lippe (1824–1895)

    And don't forget Valdemar, King of Sweden (1250–1275).

    All of these were Ancient Russians because their name, right? :-)

    Replies: @melanf

    As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant

    Well, one of these Scandinavians with a Slavic name, Vladimir, lived in Norway and gathered an army there with which he seized the Kievan throne. I guess he didn’t consider himself a Scandinavian but a Slav, right? Speaking of which –
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar
    Valdemar I of Denmark or Waldemar the Great (1131–1182)
    Valdemar II of Denmark or Waldemar the Victorious (1170–1241)…..All of these were Ancient Russians because their name, right?

    Prince Igor (son of Rurik) had a son Svyatoslav (Slavic name)

    Prince Svyatoslav’s sons:
    Yaropolk (Slavic name);
    Oleg (Scandinavian name);
    Vladimir (a Slavic name)

    The throne was inherited by Vladimir, who gave his daughters and sons the following names:

    Vycheslav,
    Svyatopolk,
    Izyaslav,
    Mstislav,
    Jaroslav
    Vsevolod,
    Predslava,
    Premyslova,
    Mstislav,
    Stanislav,
    Sudislav,
    Svyatoslav,
    Boris,
    Gleb,
    Pozvizd,
    Dobronega

    The only Scandinavian name is Gleb. The other names are Slavonic (the name Boris is Turkish, but are borrowed from the Slavs, the Bulgarians). Please give an example of a dynasty of Scandinavian rulers, who in three generations give their children Slavic names. Or give an example of a Scandinavian king, which had 16 children, but only one son with Scandinavian name

    For the rest of your thesis, detailed answer tomorrow evening, no time now

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    For the rest of your thesis, detailed answer tomorrow evening, no time now
     
    So we can expect a lengthy discourse of Russian svidomism from the same guy who didn't even know that Vladimir spent time in Norway, where he gathered his Norse troops to seize the throne.

    Replies: @melanf

  • Absolute coincidence that the rulers of Kiev had a basically pure Scandinavian bloodline for 200 years since Rurik came to those lands.

    The mother of Vladimir – slave Malusha. Brother of Malusha – Dobrynya ( Slavic name).
    “Pure Scandinavian bloodline” Lol

    Absolute coincidence that the pure Scandinavian rulers of “Ancient Russia” had a purely Slavic name for 200 years since Svyatoslav (grandson of Rurik).

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Other than Russian svidomists, scholars consider "Malusha" to be the Scandinavian Malfried.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malusha

    "The anti-Normanist historian Dmitry Ilovaisky managed to draw an opposite conclusion: that the Slavic name Malusha was turned into a Scandinavian Malfried. This claim received no wider support."

    Replies: @melanf

  • @AP
    @melanf


    For the rest of your thesis, detailed answer tomorrow evening, no time now
     
    So we can expect a lengthy discourse of Russian svidomism from the same guy who didn't even know that Vladimir spent time in Norway, where he gathered his Norse troops to seize the throne.

    Replies: @melanf

    I see that Russian svidomism has met reality and disapproves.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great

    So we can expect a lengthy discourse of Russian svidomism from the same guy who didn’t even know that Vladimir spent time in Norway, where he gathered his Norse troops to seize the throne.

    Dear friend! Especially for you:

    Vladimir fled to Scandinavia… But in the Scandinavian sagas no mention of the stay of Vladimir in Sweden or Norway (Скандинавские саги ни словом не упоминают о пребывании Вальдамара Старого в Швеции или Норвегии)… Vladimir overseas was a short time. In 977 or 978 early on, he returned to Novgorod with the Varangian guard .”

    Karpov, A. Y., “St. Vladimir”

    The only source telling us about these events – the Primary chronicle.
    When Vladimir in Novgorod heard that Yaropolk killed Oleg, then got scared and fled across the sea. And Yaropolk put his Posadnik in Novgorod and owned one Russian land… Vladimir returned to Novgorod with the Varangians and …began to rule in Novgorod.”

    (“Когда Владимир в Новгороде услышал, что Ярополк убил Олега, то испугался и бежал за море. А Ярополк посадил своих посадников в Новгороде и владел один Русскою землею… Владимир вернулся в Новгород с варягами и …стал править в Новгороде.”)

    As you can see about Norway not a single word. Vladimir was almost certainly in Sweden (with which the Ancient Rus was connected most closely, and which was closer).

    Dear AP! For the benefit of your crusade against “Russian svidomism “, use scientific work, not Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a cesspool, where any freak can Express nonsense

  • @AP
    @5371


    Public service reminder that Rurik himself probably never existed.
     
    As a man, who knows. But "his" descendants are genetically linked and the origin is in eastern Sweden:

    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html

    "Thanks to this, i.e. Rurikid project, we can now say that Rurik was a historical person who was born on the Roslagen seashore (slightly north of Stockholm, Sweden). However, he was of Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N1c1 (earlier described as N3a)). Although all of well matching N1c1 Rurikid princes are descended from Yaroslav Mudry (978 – 1054), it seems that his ancestors including Rurik (b. ab. 820 – 876) himself, also belonged to this haplogroup. A group of Swedes, whose ancestors lived in or close to Uppsala, and whose genetic haplotypes are very close to these of the Rurikids, seems to be confirming the theory that Rurik, in fact, originated from Sweden."

    So the period during which it had any serious links with Scandinavia lasted for considerably less than a hundred years, till Vladimir’s return to Kiev in 978 or so.
     
    So Vladimir's son Yaroslav seizing the throne with a core of Norse troops, largely depending on Norse troops throughout his reign (see Yakun), and being married to the daughter of Sweden's king, wasn't serious links?

    Replies: @5371

    Actually, it would be incorrect to admit that relations were particularly close even before 978. Yaroslav, like his predecessors, used sometimes Scandinavian, sometimes Polish or Polovtsian exiled potentates with their followers as part of his retinue.
    I’m afraid talk of “Finno-Ugrian” haplogroups is pseudoscience.

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @AP
    @5371


    Actually, it would be incorrect to admit that relations were particularly close even before 978. Yaroslav, like his predecessors, used sometimes Scandinavian, sometimes Polish or Polovtsian exiled potentates with their followers as part of his retinue.
     
    Sure, but he used Scandinavian troops most of all. In is struggle with Sviatopolk (who was aided by Poles) he was allied with Eimund and his Varangians, and in the struggle against Mstslav his principal ally was Jakun, the bother of Yaroslav's Swedish wife. Yaroslav's Scandinavian connection was much closer than that to other lands.

    I’m afraid talk of “Finno-Ugrian” haplogroups is pseudoscience.
     
    So you don't think that genetic tests showing that various members of Rurikid family branches being related to each other, with an origin in eastern Sweden, aren't science?
  • As one of the world's leading activists against the Putin regime, I had no choice but to show up on Tverskaya Street today, to fight for your freedom and mine. As expected, turnout wasn't particularly high. Although the area around the Pushkin Monument was crowded, it only extended to half a block in every direction....
  • @Jaakko Raipala
    @German_reader

    If Germany had won the war that prize would have probably been given to Hitler and the Swedish academy would have praised Mein Kampf as a prophetic work in the hopes of gaining favor with the victor. Then, who knows, maybe in a half century progressivism would have taken over Europe anyway and we'd now be hearing about how Hitler should no longer be considered a hero because he was a racist.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic

    If Muslims take over Europe, expect to see Hitler rehabilitated; he’s quite popular with them. Given today’s level of elite Russophobia, if it weren’t for Hitler’s antipathy towards Jews, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him given more favorable treatment: “What do you call killing 27 million Russians between 1941 and 1945? A good start!” [sarc]

    • Agree: melanf
  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • @AP
    @melanf

    Other than Russian svidomists, scholars consider "Malusha" to be the Scandinavian Malfried.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malusha

    "The anti-Normanist historian Dmitry Ilovaisky managed to draw an opposite conclusion: that the Slavic name Malusha was turned into a Scandinavian Malfried. This claim received no wider support."

    Replies: @melanf

    Do you have a better term for grandiose historical ideas that are believed by people belonging to a certain nation but not widely shared outside that country’s borders? Just because many Russians take their svidomist ideas for granted, and some Russian scholars have even constructed elaborate defenses of their svidomism (ideas, naturally, not widely held outside Russia itself), does not make those ideas true.

    Svidomist are obsessed with a certain idea, and that they ignore the facts. Explore a vivid example

    rulers of Kiev had a basically pure Scandinavian bloodline for 200 years since Rurik came ….Other than Russian svidomists, scholars consider “Malusha” (e mother of Prince Vladimir) to be the Scandinavian Malfried.

    Slave girl Malusha (not Scandinavian name), sister of Dobrinya (not Scandinavian name), her father Malk of lubech (not Scandinavian name again). But she pure- Scandinavian- bloodline because…because Russian princes in accordance with the АР idea should be pure- Scandinavian- bloodline.

    However there is a version that Malusha – Malfred!

    On this Malfred (mentioned in the chronicle for the year 1000) was built a lot of guesswork. Some researchers saw it as one of the wives of Vladimir the Saint, while others identified her with the mother of Vladimir – Malusha. From the point of view of the principles of naming, it is more likely that the first Malfred was the mother of Vladimir Svyatoslavich.”

    But alas:

    her name is etymologically was not actually Scandinavian.
    In most of Scandinavia, the first known possessor of this name was Queen Mal(m)Frid, daughter of Mstislav the Great (and wife of Sigurd the Crusader).
    Mention of other Malfrid relate only to the significantly later time, to XIII-XIVвв.
    Most probably at the origin of this name was German and originally had the form of Amalfrida. …. In the case of Mal(m)Frid we are dealing with a very interesting example of indirect penetration of the German name on Scandinavian soil — a name that comes to Scandinavia via Russia. The first owner name Malfred in Russia didn’t have to be German. It could happen from any place, where it was strongly influenced by German traditions
    .”

    Litvin, Uspensky “Names of the Russian princes in X-XVI centuries”. page 247-249

    There are svidomist who believe that Rurik – Slav. And there are svidomist who believe that Dobrynya – pure-bloodline-Scandinavian. In both cases, the Wrapper is different, but the essence is the same.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    "Slave girl Malusha (not Scandinavian name), sister of Dobrinya (not Scandinavian name), her father Malk of lubech

    Although not much is known about her the consensus seems to be that Malfried was the daughter of a Scandinavian:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malusha

    As the chronicles are silent on the subject of Malusha's pedigree, 19th-century Russian and Ukrainian historians devised various theories to explain her parentage and name.

    "Alexei Shakhmatov considered Malusha to be the daughter of Mstisha Sveneldovich, son of Sveneld, a Varangian warlord. He believed that the name Malusha was a slavinized version of a Scandinavian name Malfried.[4] In this case, Malusha was of Norse origin.[5] The Primary Chronicle records that a certain Malfried died in 1000. This record follows that of Rogneda's death. Since Rogneda was Vladimir's wife, historians assume that Malfried was another close relative of the ruling prince, preferably his wife or mother.

    The anti-Normanist historian Dmitry Ilovaisky managed to draw an opposite conclusion: that the Slavic name Malusha was turned into a Scandinavian Malfried. This claim received no wider support."


    Litvin, Uspensky “Names of the Russian princes in X-XVI centuries”. page 247-249
     
    I have no doubt that you can find Russian (and Ukrainian) svidomist scholars who insist that Malfried was a Slav. Unfortunately, as in the case of Ukrainian svidomist theories, your ideas and theirs aren't really believed much outside your country.

    Replies: @melanf

  • As one of the world's leading activists against the Putin regime, I had no choice but to show up on Tverskaya Street today, to fight for your freedom and mine. As expected, turnout wasn't particularly high. Although the area around the Pushkin Monument was crowded, it only extended to half a block in every direction....
  • @Amarige
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Why on earth Stalin gets 3? The Satan should've gotten - 0

    Replies: @melanf

    Why on earth Stalin gets 3? The Satan should’ve gotten – 0

    Industrialization and victory in WWII greatly outweigh his sins

    • Replies: @Boris N
    @melanf

    Stalin's industrialization is a propaganda myth. Not that it did not happen but the number of built factories was highly exaggerated and they were made mostly by Americans or at least with American technologies (and in part by European capitalists, including Germans). Other projects (Belomorkanal, Norilsk, etc.) were made with slave labor - not a great achievement.

    Replies: @5371

  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • @AP
    @melanf

    "Slave girl Malusha (not Scandinavian name), sister of Dobrinya (not Scandinavian name), her father Malk of lubech

    Although not much is known about her the consensus seems to be that Malfried was the daughter of a Scandinavian:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malusha

    As the chronicles are silent on the subject of Malusha's pedigree, 19th-century Russian and Ukrainian historians devised various theories to explain her parentage and name.

    "Alexei Shakhmatov considered Malusha to be the daughter of Mstisha Sveneldovich, son of Sveneld, a Varangian warlord. He believed that the name Malusha was a slavinized version of a Scandinavian name Malfried.[4] In this case, Malusha was of Norse origin.[5] The Primary Chronicle records that a certain Malfried died in 1000. This record follows that of Rogneda's death. Since Rogneda was Vladimir's wife, historians assume that Malfried was another close relative of the ruling prince, preferably his wife or mother.

    The anti-Normanist historian Dmitry Ilovaisky managed to draw an opposite conclusion: that the Slavic name Malusha was turned into a Scandinavian Malfried. This claim received no wider support."


    Litvin, Uspensky “Names of the Russian princes in X-XVI centuries”. page 247-249
     
    I have no doubt that you can find Russian (and Ukrainian) svidomist scholars who insist that Malfried was a Slav. Unfortunately, as in the case of Ukrainian svidomist theories, your ideas and theirs aren't really believed much outside your country.

    Replies: @melanf

    Slave girl Malusha (not Scandinavian name), sister of Dobrinya (not Scandinavian name), her father Malk of lubech (not Scandinavian name)

    Although not much is known about her the consensus seems to be that Malfried was the daughter of a Scandinavian:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malusha

    Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?

    Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.

    Shakhmatov version does not have the popularity among historians . Using your method ( find the “right” version, no matter how marginal, and accept it as a proven fact) it’s easy to find other explanations

    The most famous East Slavic pre-Christian name is the name of the drevlyan Prince Mal….. The female variant of male name of Mal
    is the name Malusha known as the name of the housekeeper Princess Olga: “Vladimir was the son of the housekeeper Malusha”. And as the father of Malusha was Malk, Malusha derived from the name of the father…. Name qualification Malk of Lyubech can attest to the fact that the father was from a Slavic tribe lubeca, or from Liubech or Lübeck.

    http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”

    I have no doubt that you can find Russian (and Ukrainian) svidomist scholars who insist that Malfried was a Slav. Unfortunately, as in the case of Ukrainian svidomist theories, your ideas and theirs aren’t really believed much outside your country.

    So show us the article of Western scholars (not Wikipedia!!!), where it is alleged that Vladimir and Yaroslav were purely Scandinavian rulers with pure Scandinavian bloodline, and Malusha Dobrynya was the Scandinavians and so on. For some reason (the machinations of Russian svidomists?) Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.

    Also explain why “Scandinavian rulers” many generations had Slavic names, Slavic titles (князь, боярин), worshiped Slavic gods? Western scientists explain this fact by the assimilation of the Rurik descendants . But you have another explanation?

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?
     
    The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.

    As for the names of the rulers:

    1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.

    2. You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example. In a modern version of this, there are not a small numbers of "Jennifers" in the USA born to Russian parents who are also called "Zhenya."

    Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.
     
    If you find another non-Russian source, provide it please.

    http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”
     
    The problem with using Russian sources on this matter is that they are open to svidomism. One could, for example, use a hundreds-pages book by Hrushevsky, full of footnotes and evidence, to show that the Rus were Slavs (and Ukrainians). So what?

    But it's telling that even Russian sources have mixed views on the topic - some claim that she was a Scandinavian.

    In the absence of other non-Russian sources, I'll have to use wikipedia.

    Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.
     
    Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne. Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts. When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles. He married a Swedish princess and his Swedish brother-in-law was his main ally in the war against his brother Mstislav. If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.

    Replies: @5371, @melanf, @melanf

  • @AP
    @melanf


    Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?
     
    The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.

    As for the names of the rulers:

    1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.

    2. You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example. In a modern version of this, there are not a small numbers of "Jennifers" in the USA born to Russian parents who are also called "Zhenya."

    Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.
     
    If you find another non-Russian source, provide it please.

    http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”
     
    The problem with using Russian sources on this matter is that they are open to svidomism. One could, for example, use a hundreds-pages book by Hrushevsky, full of footnotes and evidence, to show that the Rus were Slavs (and Ukrainians). So what?

    But it's telling that even Russian sources have mixed views on the topic - some claim that she was a Scandinavian.

    In the absence of other non-Russian sources, I'll have to use wikipedia.

    Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.
     
    Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne. Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts. When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles. He married a Swedish princess and his Swedish brother-in-law was his main ally in the war against his brother Mstislav. If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.

    Replies: @5371, @melanf, @melanf

    The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.

    That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian language
     
    We were discussing Malfrid, remember?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malusha

    As the chronicles are silent on the subject of Malusha’s pedigree, 19th-century Russian and Ukrainian historians devised various theories to explain her parentage and name.

    “Alexei Shakhmatov considered Malusha to be the daughter of Mstisha Sveneldovich, son of Sveneld, a Varangian warlord. He believed that the name Malusha was a slavinized version of a Scandinavian name Malfried.[4] In this case, Malusha was of Norse origin.[5] The Primary Chronicle records that a certain Malfried died in 1000. This record follows that of Rogneda’s death. Since Rogneda was Vladimir’s wife, historians assume that Malfried was another close relative of the ruling prince, preferably his wife or mother.

    The anti-Normanist historian Dmitry Ilovaisky managed to draw an opposite conclusion: that the Slavic name Malusha was turned into a Scandinavian Malfried. This claim received no wider support.”
  • @AP
    @melanf


    Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?
     
    The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.

    As for the names of the rulers:

    1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.

    2. You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example. In a modern version of this, there are not a small numbers of "Jennifers" in the USA born to Russian parents who are also called "Zhenya."

    Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.
     
    If you find another non-Russian source, provide it please.

    http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”
     
    The problem with using Russian sources on this matter is that they are open to svidomism. One could, for example, use a hundreds-pages book by Hrushevsky, full of footnotes and evidence, to show that the Rus were Slavs (and Ukrainians). So what?

    But it's telling that even Russian sources have mixed views on the topic - some claim that she was a Scandinavian.

    In the absence of other non-Russian sources, I'll have to use wikipedia.

    Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.
     
    Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne. Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts. When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles. He married a Swedish princess and his Swedish brother-in-law was his main ally in the war against his brother Mstislav. If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.

    Replies: @5371, @melanf, @melanf

    The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.

    That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.

    As for the names of the rulers:
    1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.

    The numerous Olegs, Rjuriks and Glebs among Russian Princes itself tell us that Slavic liked Scandinavians names. For example Rurik Rostislavich Grand Prince of Kiev in XIII century, Oleg Ivanovich Prince of Ryazan XIV century. In such a case, based on your logic, we should assume that all holders of Scandinavian names are Slavs?

    You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example.

    Jarisleif is not Scandinavian name it is a Slavic name, which was written by Scandinavians. Similarly in Russian chronicles the Scandinavian name Helge turned to Oleg, Hakon in the Jakun, etc.

    In the absence of other non-Russian sources, I’ll have to use wikipedia.

    In Russian, such “methods” of analysis famous as folk-history.

    Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne.
    Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts.

    4 Norwegian King (Olav Trjuggvason, Saint Olav, Magnus Olavsson, Harald Sigurdarson) were in exile in Russia, and regained the throne with the support of Russian Princes. These Norwegian Kings by your logic the Slavs?

    The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?

    When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles.

    And then he begged citizens of Novgorod for forgiveness.

    If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.

    Yaroslav’s sons names:
    Vladimir
    Izyaslav
    Svyatoslav
    Vsevolod
    Vyacheslav
    Igor

    Yaroslav undoubtedly was a Slav (though Scandinavian origin). He, among others, public affairs, amounted to a compendium of laws. Guess what language?

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    "The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version."

    That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.
     

    We were discussing Malfrid, remember? Not the other ones.

    As for the names of the rulers:
    1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.

    The numerous Olegs, Rjuriks and Glebs among Russian Princes itself tell us that Slavic liked Scandinavians names. For example Rurik Rostislavich Grand Prince of Kiev in XIII century, Oleg Ivanovich Prince of Ryazan XIV century. In such a case, based on your logic, we should assume that all holders of Scandinavian names are Slavs?
     

    The logical conclusion is that whether the name is Slavic or Scandinavian does not determine ethnicity, because Slavs could have Scandinavian names and Scandinavian could have Slavic ones.

    You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example.

    Jarisleif is not Scandinavian name it is a Slavic name, which was written by Scandinavians. Similarly in Russian chronicles the Scandinavian name Helge turned to Oleg, Hakon in the Jakun, etc.
     

    Now review what I wrote. When Yaroslav was with his own, Scandinavian people, he went by Jarisleif (see the Sagas). Likewise with Hakon, Helga, Ingvar (Igor), etc.

    Norwegian King (Olav Trjuggvason, Saint Olav, Magnus Olavsson, Harald Sigurdarson) were in exile in Russia, and regained the throne with the support of Russian Princes. These Norwegian Kings by your logic the Slavs?
     
    Since the state they were exiled to (Rus) was a Scandinavian state, why would this make them Slavs? This fact further supports the Scandinavian nature of Rus. Scandinavians felt at home going into exile there. Just as Rus leaders sometimes felt at home going into exile in Scandinavia. And I love how in your Russian svidomism you refer to this state as Russian.

    The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?
     
    While Cnut did use some Polish troops he did not depend on Polish troops nearly as much as did Vladimir and Yaroslav on Norse troops.

    When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles.

    And then he begged citizens of Novgorod for forgiveness.
     

    That's nice. He had to rule over them, after all.

    If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.

    Yaroslav’s sons names:
    Vladimir
    Izyaslav
    Svyatoslav
    Vsevolod
    Vyacheslav
    Igor

    Yaroslav undoubtedly was a Slav (though Scandinavian origin)
     

    We already discussed names - Scandinavians liked Slavic names and Slavs liked Scandinavian ones. To review, Yaroslav was 100% Scandinavian (likely - but possibly "only" 75% Scandinavian). In various phases of his career he relied on Norse troops in his wars - most of his closest allies were fellow-Scandinavians. He provided a home for Norse exiles. When Slavs rebelled against Yaroslav's Scandinavians, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavs (but apologized to the survivors). He married a Swedish princess. But strong Russian Svidomite claims Yaroslav was a Slav, and a Russian too :-)

    He, among others, public affairs, amounted to a compendium of laws. Guess what language?
     
    No originals of Pravda Yaroslava exist - the Ruska Pravda, was completed two generations later, the oldest copy is from 1282. I wouldn't doubt if the law were written in Slavic, given that the population whom the Scandinavians ruled was Slavic. But because the rulers were Scandinavians, the law itself was very Norse in type. It replaced vengeance killing with the collection of weregild, brought about Scandinavian-type jury trials, etc. If Yaroslav was a Slav, why were his laws Norse?

    Replies: @Guy, @melanf

  • A week ago, I speculated that Voronenkov was most likely killed by a Ukrainian nationalist who overdosed on svidomism, and not by the Dark Lord of the Kremlin: This was strongly suggested by the fact that the gunman, Pavel Parshov, was a former member of a Donbass batallion that had participated in the ATO. He...
  • A story about “Stalin school for saboteurs ” complete trash. But svidomist killers could be hired by the secret services of Russia (combine the elimination of the traitor with subtle trolling – a great idea). The killers in this case, certainly didn’t know who hires

  • In an infamous 2008 article, Alexander Dugin makes the distinction between "patriotic corruption" and "comprador corruption," or "Eurasian corruption" and "Atlanticist corruption." Here are the main features of "Eurasian" (patriotic) corruption: Doesn't damage Russia's national security; Concentrates the proceeds of corruption on Russian territory, or that of allied or strategically important countries; Doesn't put the...
  • or who end up stealing far too much for their station, such as … former Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov.

    Serdyukov very much reduced corruption in the Army (and greatly raised the quality of army). While Serdyukov has aroused very strong hatred of the military (which was forced to make a fare work instead of stealing and drinking vodka). This was the reason for dismissal Serdyukov (after he reformed the army), rather than his own corruptive actions

    • Replies: @5371
    @melanf

    This is an unpopular view, but it may be correct. Things seemed to start moving with Serdyukov as they had never done with Sergey Ivanov.

    Replies: @JL

  • @Mr. Hack
    @Glossy

    I don't see why it's wrong to call Putin's party the 'Party of Crooks and Thieves', because that's precisely what it is. Even Anatoly has confirmed this here at this thread by stating:


    ' the Russian ruling clique has a common interest in regulating corruption. Those who overstep the bounds of what is permissible, e.g. by practicing “compador” corruption, such as United Russia MP Vladimir Pekhtin with his Florida waterfront condo; or who end up stealing far too much for their station, such as the former head of Russian Railways Vladimir Yakunin and former Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, are quietly dismissed.
     
    What I hear here is the exact type of formula set by mafia type groupings throughout the world. In this instance, the Godfather, Putin, sets the parameters of what's permissible to steal, and what is not. This is not the type of governance that leads to anything good, anything sane. Defending this type of governance is pure nonsense of the highest order, and points to the utter lack of moral conviction by anyone who holds dear to it.
    '

    Replies: @JL, @Anon, @Anonymous, @melanf, @Kimppis

    What I hear here is the exact type of formula set by mafia type groupings throughout the world.

    What your hear here is the exact type of formula set by all states throughout the world. Exception? May be ISIS

  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • @AP
    @melanf


    "The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version."

    That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.
     

    We were discussing Malfrid, remember? Not the other ones.

    As for the names of the rulers:
    1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.

    The numerous Olegs, Rjuriks and Glebs among Russian Princes itself tell us that Slavic liked Scandinavians names. For example Rurik Rostislavich Grand Prince of Kiev in XIII century, Oleg Ivanovich Prince of Ryazan XIV century. In such a case, based on your logic, we should assume that all holders of Scandinavian names are Slavs?
     

    The logical conclusion is that whether the name is Slavic or Scandinavian does not determine ethnicity, because Slavs could have Scandinavian names and Scandinavian could have Slavic ones.

    You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example.

    Jarisleif is not Scandinavian name it is a Slavic name, which was written by Scandinavians. Similarly in Russian chronicles the Scandinavian name Helge turned to Oleg, Hakon in the Jakun, etc.
     

    Now review what I wrote. When Yaroslav was with his own, Scandinavian people, he went by Jarisleif (see the Sagas). Likewise with Hakon, Helga, Ingvar (Igor), etc.

    Norwegian King (Olav Trjuggvason, Saint Olav, Magnus Olavsson, Harald Sigurdarson) were in exile in Russia, and regained the throne with the support of Russian Princes. These Norwegian Kings by your logic the Slavs?
     
    Since the state they were exiled to (Rus) was a Scandinavian state, why would this make them Slavs? This fact further supports the Scandinavian nature of Rus. Scandinavians felt at home going into exile there. Just as Rus leaders sometimes felt at home going into exile in Scandinavia. And I love how in your Russian svidomism you refer to this state as Russian.

    The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?
     
    While Cnut did use some Polish troops he did not depend on Polish troops nearly as much as did Vladimir and Yaroslav on Norse troops.

    When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles.

    And then he begged citizens of Novgorod for forgiveness.
     

    That's nice. He had to rule over them, after all.

    If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.

    Yaroslav’s sons names:
    Vladimir
    Izyaslav
    Svyatoslav
    Vsevolod
    Vyacheslav
    Igor

    Yaroslav undoubtedly was a Slav (though Scandinavian origin)
     

    We already discussed names - Scandinavians liked Slavic names and Slavs liked Scandinavian ones. To review, Yaroslav was 100% Scandinavian (likely - but possibly "only" 75% Scandinavian). In various phases of his career he relied on Norse troops in his wars - most of his closest allies were fellow-Scandinavians. He provided a home for Norse exiles. When Slavs rebelled against Yaroslav's Scandinavians, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavs (but apologized to the survivors). He married a Swedish princess. But strong Russian Svidomite claims Yaroslav was a Slav, and a Russian too :-)

    He, among others, public affairs, amounted to a compendium of laws. Guess what language?
     
    No originals of Pravda Yaroslava exist - the Ruska Pravda, was completed two generations later, the oldest copy is from 1282. I wouldn't doubt if the law were written in Slavic, given that the population whom the Scandinavians ruled was Slavic. But because the rulers were Scandinavians, the law itself was very Norse in type. It replaced vengeance killing with the collection of weregild, brought about Scandinavian-type jury trials, etc. If Yaroslav was a Slav, why were his laws Norse?

    Replies: @Guy, @melanf

    The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?

    While Cnut did use some Polish troops he did not depend on Polish troops nearly as much as did Vladimir and Yaroslav on Norse troops.

    Nonsense
    Primary chronicles :
    « Yaroslav collected one thousand Varangians and forty thousand other soldiers, and marched against Svyatopolk. When Svyatopolk learned that Yaroslav was on his way, he prepared an innumerable army of Russes and Pechenegs and marched out toward Lyubech128 on one side of the Dnieper, while Yaroslav was on the opposite bank. Brothers stood over against each other on both banks on the Dnieper, but neither party dared attack. They remained thus face to face for three months. Then Svyatopolk’s general rode out along the shore and scoffed at the men of Novgorod, shouting, “Why did you come hither with this crooked-shanks, you carpenters?129 We shall put you to work on our houses.” Vhen the men of Novgorod heard this taunt, they declared to Yaroslav, “Tomorrow we will cross over to them, and whoever will not go with us we will kill.” Now it was already beginning to freeze. Svyatopolk was stationed between two lakes, and caroused with his fellows the whole night through. Yaroslav on the morrow marshaled his troops, and crossed over toward dawn. His forces disembarked on the shore, and pushed the boats out from the bank. The two armies advanced to the attack, and met upon the field. The carnage was terrible. Because of the lake, the Pechenegs could bring no aid, and Yaroslav’s troops drove Svyatopolk with his followers toward it. When the latter went out upon the ice, it broke under them, and Yaroslav began to win the upper hand. Svyatopolk then fled among the Lyakhs, while Yaroslav established himself in Kiev upon the throne of his father and his grandfather.»

    Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav. The outcome of the war decided by the Novgorod army, not the Scandinavians. The participation of Scandinavians in the decisive battle is not mentioned at all

    He (Yaroslav) had to rule over them (men of Novgorod), after all.

    Really? It is rather the men of Novgorod rule
    «Then Yaroslav fled with four men to Novgorod, and Boleslav entered Kiev in company with Svyatopolk. When Yaroslav arrived at Novgorod in his flight, he planned to escape overseas, but the Posadnik (mayor) Constantine, son of Dobrynya, together with the men of Novgorod, destroyed his boat, protesting that they wished to fight once more against Boleslav and Svyatopolk. They set out to gather funds ….»

    Pravda Yaroslava exist – the Ruska Pravda, …w itself was very Norse in type. It replaced vengeance killing with the collection of weregild, brought about Scandinavian-type jury trials, etc. If Yaroslav was a Slav, why were his laws Norse?

    Nonsense
    Collection of «weregild», jury trials and so on was a common features of the barbaric laws (such as Salic law) reflecting the views of early medieval tribes about justice. Of course Pravda Yaroslava is a fully Slavic laws, as a write Slavic language, and used Slavic terms. In this law there is Absolutely no privilege for Scandinavians (in contrast to the Salic law which established special rights of the Germans).

    But strong Russian Svidomite claims Yaroslav was a Slav, and a Russian too

    Yaroslav was undoubtedly a Slav. Of course the Scandinavians sometimes had Slavic names, and the Slavs had sometimes Scandinavian names. But when a whole dynasty of Rurikovich (in the era of Yaroslav) consisting dozens of people had almost exclusively Slavic names – this dynasty is undoubtedly Slavic. The origin in this case plays no role, as it doesn’t matter the pure-blood-line German origin of Nicholas I or Queen Victoria

    Since the state they were exiled to (Rus) was a Scandinavian state

    Nonsense
    The state where the ruling dynasty has exclusively Slavic names, all aristocratic titles – Slavic, laws – Slavic, the written language is Slavic. Books that have been written for the princesof the Slavic language, too. Troops in the vast majority – Slavic. And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods, with human sacrifice. For the sake of the Slavic gods, the pagan priests killed….Scandinavians.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav.
     
    Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such.

    You also ignored Yaroslav's reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?


    Collection of «weregild», jury trials and so on was a common features of the barbaric laws (such as Salic law) reflecting the views of early medieval tribes about justice.
     
    It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn't a Slavic thing. The Norse were, of course, Germanic. Same with jury trials, another Norse thing. The law was written in Slavic because the population was mostly Slavic but the writer was a Scandinavian and the law that this Scandinavian ruler created followed Norse legal norms.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russkaya_Pravda

    In spite of great influence of Byzantine legislation on the contemporary world, and in spite of great cultural and commercial ties between Byzantium and Rus', the Russkaya Pravda bore no similarity whatever to that of the Byzantine Empire. The absence of capital and corporal punishment rather reflects the Norse way of thought.

    Wikipedia links to this book.


    And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods,
     
    Oops. Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right? :-)

    Link about Vladimir's Norse religion is here.

    Replies: @melanf

  • Whether one likes Russia or not, I think that everybody would agree that this country is really different, different in a profound and unique way. And there is some truth to that. One famous Russian author even wrote that “Russia cannot be understood rationally” (he used the expression “cannot be comprehended by the intellect”). Add...
  • I would therefore argue that while geographically-speaking Russia (at least the most populated part of it) is in Europe, culturally it has never shared a common history or, even less so, a common culture with the West.

    It’s certainly not about modern Russia. The history which is taught in Russian schools is the history of Europe (and the history of Russia of course). In the school course describes in detail the ancient world and of medieval Catholic Europe. But about the Eastern civilization (India, China) and Byzantium said very little.

    To Byzantium the attitude is particularly bad, the word “Byzantium” in the Russian language has become synonymous with treachery, cruelty and decadence.

    This attitude towards different civilizations can be seen on the example of Historical reenactment. In this area in Russia, many fans of the Vikings, the Franks, the crusaders, the Swiss, etc. But to Byzantium – zero interest.

    Similarly in literature – published many books on the material of medieval Catholic Europe (fantasy, historical novels). About Byzantium, there is nothing

  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • @AP
    @melanf


    Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav.
     
    Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such.

    You also ignored Yaroslav's reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?


    Collection of «weregild», jury trials and so on was a common features of the barbaric laws (such as Salic law) reflecting the views of early medieval tribes about justice.
     
    It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn't a Slavic thing. The Norse were, of course, Germanic. Same with jury trials, another Norse thing. The law was written in Slavic because the population was mostly Slavic but the writer was a Scandinavian and the law that this Scandinavian ruler created followed Norse legal norms.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russkaya_Pravda

    In spite of great influence of Byzantine legislation on the contemporary world, and in spite of great cultural and commercial ties between Byzantium and Rus', the Russkaya Pravda bore no similarity whatever to that of the Byzantine Empire. The absence of capital and corporal punishment rather reflects the Norse way of thought.

    Wikipedia links to this book.


    And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods,
     
    Oops. Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right? :-)

    Link about Vladimir's Norse religion is here.

    Replies: @melanf

    Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav.

    Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such.

    As can be seen from the text of the chronicle, the « core professional » Vikings played such a minor role that in the description of the battle they not mentioned at all. The war was won by the troops of Novgorod

    You also ignored Yaroslav’s reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?

    Maybe because Yaroslav’s Scandinavian mercenaries were soundly defeated?

    It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.

    Similar rules in “Polish truth” (Poland) and the “Statuta Konrádova” (Czech Kingdom)

    And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods,

    Oops.
    Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right?

    Primary Chronicle:
    « Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh…»

    Perun, Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh – do you really think that is Norse, not Slavic pagan religion? 😉

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    "Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such."

    As can be seen from the text of the chronicle, the « core professional » Vikings played such a minor role that in the description of the battle they not mentioned at all. The war was won by the troops of Novgorod
     
    Ironically, the Norse sagas don't mention Novgorodians at all but mention the 1,000 Scandinavians. And they are more detailed about Yaroslav's life than are the Chronicles - so, a better source.

    see: Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, written by Samuel Hazzard Cross, Speculum, University of Chicago Press.

    A Russian Svidomist will likely believe the story that carpenters were more important in a battle than were seasoned professional soldiers. But objectively, the Scandinavians were the core and the civilian militia were the adjuncts.


    You also ignored Yaroslav’s reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?

    Maybe because Yaroslav’s Scandinavian mercenaries were soundly defeated?
     
    Which is irrelevant with respect to our discussion about Yaroslav relying on Scandinavian troops. As we have seen, he relied on Scandinavian troops against Sviatopolk, against Mstislav, and in the 1030s, Harald Sigurdsson (future king ogf Norway) along with Eilifr served as leaders of Yaroslav's military forces. So at every stage, Norsemen played a central role.

    It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.

    Similar rules in “Polish truth” (Poland) and the “Statuta Konrádova” (Czech Kingdom)
     
    Both influenced by Germanic customs.

    Oops.
    Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right?

    Primary Chronicle:
    « Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh…»

    Perun, Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh – do you really think that is Norse, not Slavic pagan religion?
     
    We are discussing Vladimir's religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev's people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong? :-)

    Direct quote from source:

    "Prince Vladmir, who followed the Old Norse religion of his parents"
  • There are some people in the pro-Russian altsphere, especially those who don't live here, who love to wax lyrical about the "Orthodox-Islamic civilizational alliance" or some such thing. There's only one problem with it: It's complete codswallop. Oh well, it's not anything that a few more arrests of Russian nationalists under Article 282 won't solve....
  • @karl1haushofer
    Unfortunately Russia has a large indigenous Muslim population. Nothing bad to say about Tatars and Bashkirs, but the North Caucasus Muslim tribes are a problem for Russia. The perpetrator of St.Petersburg terrorist attack is likely a North Caucasus Muslim too (in the surveillance video it looked like a Chechen/Ingush).

    In retrospect Russia should have done in Northern Caucasus what Europeans did in North America, and re-populate the region with Orthodox Christians. Now it's too late unless another Stalin rises to power in Russia. Russia is stuck with Northern Caucasus and its problems.

    Replies: @melanf

    In retrospect Russia should have done in Northern Caucasus what Europeans did in North America, and re-populate the region with Orthodox Christians.

    To a very large extent, that’s exactly what happened. The Muslim tribes of the Western Caucasus in the majority migrated to Turkey (1864 – 1867), so the dominant religion was Christianity.

    • Replies: @karl1haushofer
    @melanf

    The problem is that Russia did not do it all the way.

    Now we have a millions-strong radical Muslim population in Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Kabardino-Balkaria, AND we have millions of them emigrating to traditionally Orthodox parts of Russia.

    As their numbers grow in Moscow, St.Petersburg and other big cities, so will the problems.

    Replies: @melanf, @Andrei Martyanov, @5371

  • @karl1haushofer
    @melanf

    The problem is that Russia did not do it all the way.

    Now we have a millions-strong radical Muslim population in Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Kabardino-Balkaria, AND we have millions of them emigrating to traditionally Orthodox parts of Russia.

    As their numbers grow in Moscow, St.Petersburg and other big cities, so will the problems.

    Replies: @melanf, @Andrei Martyanov, @5371

    Now we have a millions-strong radical Muslim population in Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Kabardino-Balkaria, AND we have millions of them emigrating to traditionally Orthodox parts of Russia.

    “Millions-strong Muslim radical” is a very strong exaggeration. But of course in Russia a serious problem with radical Islam

    • Replies: @karl1haushofer
    @melanf

    Its not an exaggeration since the overall number of these "tribes" or ethnicities is several millions and basically all problems related to radical Islam and terrorism in Russia have their roots in North Caucasus.

    Replies: @melanf

  • @karl1haushofer
    @melanf

    Its not an exaggeration since the overall number of these "tribes" or ethnicities is several millions and basically all problems related to radical Islam and terrorism in Russia have their roots in North Caucasus.

    Replies: @melanf

    Its not an exaggeration since the overall number of these “tribes” or ethnicities is several millions and basically all problems related to radical Islam and terrorism in Russia have their roots in North Caucasus.

    Radical Muslims among them a minority. During the invasion of the Wahhabis in Dagestan in 1999, the radicals had to fight battles with militia of local “tribes” .

    However for terrorist attacks support minority is quite enough.

  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • As can be seen from the text of the chronicle, the « core professional » Vikings played such a minor role that in the description of the battle they not mentioned at all. The war was won by the troops of Novgorod

    Ironically, the Norse sagas don’t mention Novgorodians at all but mention the 1,000 Scandinavians. And they are more detailed about Yaroslav’s life than are the Chronicles – so, a better source
    see: Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, written by Samuel Hazzard Cross, Speculum, University of Chicago Press.

    The authors of these sagas did not even know who was the enemy of Yaroslav: « The
    saga confuses to some extent the names of the contending Russian princes, who are
    referred to as Burizleifr, Jarizleifr, and Varnlaf (Vartilaf). The name Burizleifr applies
    obviously to Svyatopolk…
    » (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, written by Samuel Hazzard Cross, Speculum, University of Chicago Press). The wife of Vladimir in the sagas is Olga and so on. «Saga has manifestly unhistorical haracter of much of its narrative» Alas the sagas are not reliable source on the history of «ancient Russia». A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)

    A Russian Svidomist will likely believe the story that carpenters were more important in a battle than were seasoned professional soldiers. But objectively, the Scandinavians were the core and the civilian militia were the adjuncts.

    Alas, the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press) argues otherwise
    Of course in reality, the Novgorod army was recruited from the nobility. As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs) completely looted and destroyed the capital of Sweden

    They sailed into Lake Mälar from the sea,
    whether calm or stormy it might be,
    Once their minds to the idea did turn,
    that they the town of Sigtuna should burn,
    and so thoroughly they put it to the flame,
    that it since then has never been the same.
    There Archbishop Jon was killed,
    a deed that many a heathen thrilled

    Which is irrelevant with respect to our discussion about Yaroslav relying on Scandinavian troops.

    As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats. However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian. Multicultural family heh heh

    It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.

    It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing

    Primary Chronicle:
    « Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh…»
    Perun, Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh – do you really think that is Norse, not Slavic pagan religion?

    We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?

    The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)
     
    A primary source is not necessarily a reliable source. A reliable source is a legitimate objective academic who interprets the primary source...such as the author of the Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, Samuel Hazzard Cross.

    What does he conclude at the end of his article (page 197)?

    "The importance of these Icelandic references to the age of Yaroslav lies rather in retrospect. They show that among the descendants of Rurik there existed a continuity of tradition associating them with the leading families of Scandinavia. The capacity of the outstanding princes of Kiev was, in fact, a product of Scandinavian energy than of Slavic inertia. The restricted character of Scandinavian influence on early Russian civilization is explicable on one hand by the proximity of Kiev to the superior culture of Byzantium and on the other hand by the peculiar absorbent power that Russia has always had on the immigrant. Furthermore, in view of even this evidence as to the intimate relationships between the Russian princes and their Scandinavian contemporaries, there can be little question but that the ultimate Scandinavian origin of the Russian princely house was clearly recognized by its members.


    . As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs)
     
    This apparent sneak attack took place 100 years later. Please stay on topic.

    As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats.
     
    Again, the point is not his rate of success but that he relied on them.

    However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian.
     
    It is merely one part of the overall picture. If Sviatopolk was himself 100% (or perhaps 75%) of Pecheneg ancestry and and he married a Pecheneg princess and he relied on Pecheneg troops and his court was a place of exile and training for Pechenegs then yes, he would be a Pecheneg. But this of course was not the case.

    In contrast, Yarslav was of 100% Scandinavian ancestry (slight chance - 75%), and he relied on Scandinavian troops, and he married a Scandinavian princess, and his court was a place for Scandinavians to spend time in while they were exiled, etc. All together this adds up to a very clear picture, that only a true Russian svidomite, blinded by his Russian svidomism, cannot see.


    It [weregild] was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.

    It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing
     

    Nope. From Britannica:

    Wergild, also spelled Wergeld, or Weregild, (Old English: “man payment”), in ancient Germanic law, the amount of compensation paid by a person committing an offense to the injured party or, in case of death, to his family.

    For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section "Germanic Contacts."

    In summary: Russka Pravda fits effortlessly into the category of other Germanic legal codes from that time. It's closest to Lex Saxonum, from a region that bordered Jutland. In fact, the expert concludes " the first impression received upon acquainting oneself with an RP text is that it is not unlike the text of the early medieval Germanic laws."

    Your Russian svidomism is strong indeed for you deny the basic Germanic nature of the Russka Pravda.

    So - 100% Scandinavian descent (slight chance, only 75%) prince, surrounding himself and dependent on Scandinavian warriors, married to Scandinavian princess, has a court that is a place of exile for various Scandinavians, and created a legal code that is typically Germanic in content - is a Slav. Very funny. :-)


    "We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?"

    The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.

     

    "Opinion of madman?"

    The source, that I linked to, is Semantics of Statebuilding: Language, Meanings and Sovereignty, by Nicolas Lemay-Hébert, Nicholas Onuf, Vojin Rakić, Petar Bojanić

    Authors of the source are all legitimate academics.

    Let me remind you what was in their book: "“Prince Vladmir, who followed the Old Norse religion of his parents.”

    This statement also appears in Russia's Identity in International Relations: Images, Perceptions, Misperceptions, edited by Ray Taras.

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

  • A week ago, I speculated that Voronenkov was most likely killed by a Ukrainian nationalist who overdosed on svidomism, and not by the Dark Lord of the Kremlin: This was strongly suggested by the fact that the gunman, Pavel Parshov, was a former member of a Donbass batallion that had participated in the ATO. He...
  • “Ex-soldier of the Ukrainian battalion “Donbass” Sergey Jerzewski (colleague Parshov) stated that Voronenkov murder is personal revenge, by Parshov. Parshov was not recruited by anyone.
    “I don’t think he was recruited by the (Russian secret services). Maybe someone put him up to it. He was not cunning, thoughtful. And he didn’t have Pro-Russian views”, he “hated Russia.”

    https://vz.ru/news/2017/4/4/864759.html

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    More confirmation.

    Thanks.

  • There is a huge amount of misinformation and disinformation about what is and what is not Russian nationalism. As a ROG agent and evil Russian oppressor, it's incumbent on me to set the record straight. Sputnik and Pogrom's vision of "Russia for Russians." *** Western commentators love to designate every single frothing at the mouth...
  • @Anatoly Karlin
    @German_reader


    What’s so special about North Kazakhstan? Are there still a lot of Russians there?
     
    Just a little over 4 million. The only region where they still form a solid majority is in the north, in what was once known as "South Siberia."

    One idea is to press for autonomy for the region, and if/when Nazarbaev dies and is replaced by Kazakh nationalists, send in the little green men.

    There's little point in playing for any other Kazakh regions; though the cities there were founded by Russians (e.g. Atyrau used to be Guriev), they are now 90%+ Kazakh.

    Are you in favour of abolishing those republics or what’s your position on them?
     
    The generally favored solution amongst Russian nationalists is to replace the current hodgepodge of oblasts, republics, krais, autonomous republics, okrugs, autonomous okrugs, and whatnot, with their varying levels of autonomy, with the Tsarist era guberniya system.

    What’s the core of Russian identity for you?
     
    Not sure there is one. Ultimately, all nationalities are social constructs to some degree or another, and are a matter of ticking off a certain number of checkmarks:
    * Ancestral homeland in Russia
    * Orthodox heritage
    * Slavic ancestry
    * Knowledge of Russian language
    * Last and least, RF passport

    Of course you can always write a long flowery essay about what constitutes being a Russian (or a German, or a Jew, or whatever), but in the end I think it all boils down to this.

    Is Orthodox Christianity necessarily a central element?
     
    Not really, though I do subscribe somewhat to Orthodox Christianity as being part of implicit Russian identity. (Much like Judaism is for Jews. Golda Meir: "I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God).

    Replies: @German_reader, @melanf, @ussr andy, @bjondo, @Seraphim

    The generally favored solution amongst Russian nationalists is to replace the current hodgepodge of oblasts, republics, krais, autonomous republics, okrugs, autonomous okrugs, and whatnot, with their varying levels of autonomy, with the Tsarist era guberniya system.

    Completely unrealistic idea. Attempts to implement this approach will lead to deep conflict and possible to civil war.

    A relatively realistic way is to gradually equalize all parts of Russia in rights (for example of the States of the USA)

  • @Hail
    The Chechnya problem. Why keep Chechnya?

    Does anyone propose formally expelling Chechnya and making it a client state to keep an eye on it?

    Replies: @melanf, @Anon

    Does anyone propose formally expelling Chechnya and making it a client state to keep an eye on it?

    And what’s the point?
    Nationalists dream to expel Chechnya (and also Dagestan and Ingushetia) from Russia, to deport all the natives of these republics, and fenced off by a wall. This idea is quite crazy, but the logic is clear.

    But what’s the point to create a “client state”?

    • Replies: @Hail
    @melanf


    what’s the point to create a “client state”?
     
    For stability.

    A Chechnya with no Russian involvement would probably end up a regional base for ISIS-like groups. Am I wrong? What if Chechens got nuclear weapons?

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf


    Nationalists dream to expel Chechnya (and also Dagestan and Ingushetia) from Russia, to deport all the natives of these republics, and fenced off by a wall.
     
    This is one idea, though I certainly wouldn't say that's a Russian nationalist policy per se. I doubt that's even the majority opinion.

    However, as territories that were only definitively conquered in the 19th century, like Central Asia, they do have a point that a Russia with Chechnya but without, say, Belorussia is a fairly strange construct.

    Replies: @melanf

  • @Hail
    @melanf


    what’s the point to create a “client state”?
     
    For stability.

    A Chechnya with no Russian involvement would probably end up a regional base for ISIS-like groups. Am I wrong? What if Chechens got nuclear weapons?

    Replies: @melanf

    what’s the point to create a “client state”?

    For stability.
    A Chechnya with no Russian involvement would probably end up a regional base for ISIS-like groups. Am I wrong?

    For this (at least for the near future) it is better to leave Chechnya as part of Russia. Exterminate the Islamists, using brute force, is almost impossible in a foreign country

  • @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf


    Nationalists dream to expel Chechnya (and also Dagestan and Ingushetia) from Russia, to deport all the natives of these republics, and fenced off by a wall.
     
    This is one idea, though I certainly wouldn't say that's a Russian nationalist policy per se. I doubt that's even the majority opinion.

    However, as territories that were only definitively conquered in the 19th century, like Central Asia, they do have a point that a Russia with Chechnya but without, say, Belorussia is a fairly strange construct.

    Replies: @melanf

    However, as territories that were only definitively conquered in the 19th century, like Central Asia, they do have a point that a Russia with Chechnya but without, say, Belorussia is a fairly strange construct.

    The proclamation of the “Reconquista” is even more strange idea. The only result will be a rapid rapprochement of Belarus with NATO.

    It is necessary to solve the internal problems of Russia – then the integration with Russia ( for Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) will look better than rapprochement with the EU.

    Promotion of aggressive policies will only harm Russia (protection of the Russian population in the conditions of the neo-Nazi coup in Ukraine – a very different case)

    • Agree: Sergey Krieger
  • The basics on Denis Voronenkov: Communist MP. Bombastically patriotic. He led the way on highly needed and necessary legislation, such as a ban on Pokemon Go, and often waxed lyrical about the "patriotic" and "non-materialistic" values instilled on him by his Komsomol education. This patriotism and lack of materialism expressed itself in the form of...
  • @AP
    @melanf


    A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)
     
    A primary source is not necessarily a reliable source. A reliable source is a legitimate objective academic who interprets the primary source...such as the author of the Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, Samuel Hazzard Cross.

    What does he conclude at the end of his article (page 197)?

    "The importance of these Icelandic references to the age of Yaroslav lies rather in retrospect. They show that among the descendants of Rurik there existed a continuity of tradition associating them with the leading families of Scandinavia. The capacity of the outstanding princes of Kiev was, in fact, a product of Scandinavian energy than of Slavic inertia. The restricted character of Scandinavian influence on early Russian civilization is explicable on one hand by the proximity of Kiev to the superior culture of Byzantium and on the other hand by the peculiar absorbent power that Russia has always had on the immigrant. Furthermore, in view of even this evidence as to the intimate relationships between the Russian princes and their Scandinavian contemporaries, there can be little question but that the ultimate Scandinavian origin of the Russian princely house was clearly recognized by its members.


    . As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs)
     
    This apparent sneak attack took place 100 years later. Please stay on topic.

    As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats.
     
    Again, the point is not his rate of success but that he relied on them.

    However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian.
     
    It is merely one part of the overall picture. If Sviatopolk was himself 100% (or perhaps 75%) of Pecheneg ancestry and and he married a Pecheneg princess and he relied on Pecheneg troops and his court was a place of exile and training for Pechenegs then yes, he would be a Pecheneg. But this of course was not the case.

    In contrast, Yarslav was of 100% Scandinavian ancestry (slight chance - 75%), and he relied on Scandinavian troops, and he married a Scandinavian princess, and his court was a place for Scandinavians to spend time in while they were exiled, etc. All together this adds up to a very clear picture, that only a true Russian svidomite, blinded by his Russian svidomism, cannot see.


    It [weregild] was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.

    It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing
     

    Nope. From Britannica:

    Wergild, also spelled Wergeld, or Weregild, (Old English: “man payment”), in ancient Germanic law, the amount of compensation paid by a person committing an offense to the injured party or, in case of death, to his family.

    For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section "Germanic Contacts."

    In summary: Russka Pravda fits effortlessly into the category of other Germanic legal codes from that time. It's closest to Lex Saxonum, from a region that bordered Jutland. In fact, the expert concludes " the first impression received upon acquainting oneself with an RP text is that it is not unlike the text of the early medieval Germanic laws."

    Your Russian svidomism is strong indeed for you deny the basic Germanic nature of the Russka Pravda.

    So - 100% Scandinavian descent (slight chance, only 75%) prince, surrounding himself and dependent on Scandinavian warriors, married to Scandinavian princess, has a court that is a place of exile for various Scandinavians, and created a legal code that is typically Germanic in content - is a Slav. Very funny. :-)


    "We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?"

    The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.

     

    "Opinion of madman?"

    The source, that I linked to, is Semantics of Statebuilding: Language, Meanings and Sovereignty, by Nicolas Lemay-Hébert, Nicholas Onuf, Vojin Rakić, Petar Bojanić

    Authors of the source are all legitimate academics.

    Let me remind you what was in their book: "“Prince Vladmir, who followed the Old Norse religion of his parents.”

    This statement also appears in Russia's Identity in International Relations: Images, Perceptions, Misperceptions, edited by Ray Taras.

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

    Authors of the source are all legitimate academics blah-blah-blah

    by the middle of the 10th century the Rus had assimilated with the native Slavs and lost their distinct identity…. Even by 907, the Rus appear to have adopted native religious beliefs, swearing to uphold the treaties by the Slavic gods Perun, a thunder god, and Veles, a chthonic deity etc. etc”

    Northmen. The viking saga 793–1241 ad. John Haywood

    Read through Google ( I’m too lazy to drag down the whole text here) . Self-education is always useful

  • @AP
    @melanf


    A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)
     
    A primary source is not necessarily a reliable source. A reliable source is a legitimate objective academic who interprets the primary source...such as the author of the Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, Samuel Hazzard Cross.

    What does he conclude at the end of his article (page 197)?

    "The importance of these Icelandic references to the age of Yaroslav lies rather in retrospect. They show that among the descendants of Rurik there existed a continuity of tradition associating them with the leading families of Scandinavia. The capacity of the outstanding princes of Kiev was, in fact, a product of Scandinavian energy than of Slavic inertia. The restricted character of Scandinavian influence on early Russian civilization is explicable on one hand by the proximity of Kiev to the superior culture of Byzantium and on the other hand by the peculiar absorbent power that Russia has always had on the immigrant. Furthermore, in view of even this evidence as to the intimate relationships between the Russian princes and their Scandinavian contemporaries, there can be little question but that the ultimate Scandinavian origin of the Russian princely house was clearly recognized by its members.


    . As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs)
     
    This apparent sneak attack took place 100 years later. Please stay on topic.

    As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats.
     
    Again, the point is not his rate of success but that he relied on them.

    However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian.
     
    It is merely one part of the overall picture. If Sviatopolk was himself 100% (or perhaps 75%) of Pecheneg ancestry and and he married a Pecheneg princess and he relied on Pecheneg troops and his court was a place of exile and training for Pechenegs then yes, he would be a Pecheneg. But this of course was not the case.

    In contrast, Yarslav was of 100% Scandinavian ancestry (slight chance - 75%), and he relied on Scandinavian troops, and he married a Scandinavian princess, and his court was a place for Scandinavians to spend time in while they were exiled, etc. All together this adds up to a very clear picture, that only a true Russian svidomite, blinded by his Russian svidomism, cannot see.


    It [weregild] was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.

    It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing
     

    Nope. From Britannica:

    Wergild, also spelled Wergeld, or Weregild, (Old English: “man payment”), in ancient Germanic law, the amount of compensation paid by a person committing an offense to the injured party or, in case of death, to his family.

    For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section "Germanic Contacts."

    In summary: Russka Pravda fits effortlessly into the category of other Germanic legal codes from that time. It's closest to Lex Saxonum, from a region that bordered Jutland. In fact, the expert concludes " the first impression received upon acquainting oneself with an RP text is that it is not unlike the text of the early medieval Germanic laws."

    Your Russian svidomism is strong indeed for you deny the basic Germanic nature of the Russka Pravda.

    So - 100% Scandinavian descent (slight chance, only 75%) prince, surrounding himself and dependent on Scandinavian warriors, married to Scandinavian princess, has a court that is a place of exile for various Scandinavians, and created a legal code that is typically Germanic in content - is a Slav. Very funny. :-)


    "We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?"

    The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.

     

    "Opinion of madman?"

    The source, that I linked to, is Semantics of Statebuilding: Language, Meanings and Sovereignty, by Nicolas Lemay-Hébert, Nicholas Onuf, Vojin Rakić, Petar Bojanić

    Authors of the source are all legitimate academics.

    Let me remind you what was in their book: "“Prince Vladmir, who followed the Old Norse religion of his parents.”

    This statement also appears in Russia's Identity in International Relations: Images, Perceptions, Misperceptions, edited by Ray Taras.

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

    For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section “Germanic Contacts.”

    Dear friend! It’s sad that you have not read this section until the end. Otherwise you’d see the conclusion:

    The earliest law of other Slavic peoples, where there is no reason for assuming any significant Germanic influence, appears to be quite similar to Old-Russian law

    (book “Law in Medieval Russia” Ferdinand Joseph Maria Feldbrugge, section “Germanic Contacts”, p 56)
    Also from the same the section:

    Also, the Viking element, although very visible, must have been The earliest law of other Slavic peoples, where there is no reason for assuming any significant Germanic influence, appears to be quite similar to Old-Russian lawsmall in quantitative terms and was quickly absorbed into the Russian population and Russian culture.”

    The Russian signatories of the 945 treaty, although clearly Vikings, judging by their names, did not swear by Thor, but by Perun the Slavic god of thunder, indicating that the Varangian retinue of the Kievan prince had already adopted the religion of their Slavic surroundings

    and so on.

    As you can see science in the West, too, is dominated by “Russian svidomism”. But I’m sure you will soon overtake traditional science and rigid adherents of this science, thanks to your revolutionary negationist theories.

  • In light of recent news, now is perhaps a good time to remind ourselves of perhaps the most succinct and information dense explanation of why Assad is less bad than the "moderate rebels." Via Nicholas Nassim Taleb:
  • @German_reader
    @Randal

    "There is enough truth in each to allow it to be plausible "

    I'm not sure however there is really much truth to the "Assad wants Islamists to thrive" line. Supposedly he let a lot of Islamists out of prison back in 2011 when the protests started so they would discredit the opposition. But honestly, wasn't it always likely that the conflict in Syria would take on a strongly sectarian dimension? Opposition to the Assad regime has had a religious flavour in the past (the Muslim brotherhood uprising which led to the flattening of Hama in the early 1980s), and Islamist groups were the most likely recipients of foreign support from countries like Turkey and the Gulf states. Also, the most radical elements usually come out on top in revolutions (like in France in the 1790s, Russia in 1917, Iran in 1979). So I doubt there was ever much likelihood of a secular, democratic opposition staying important over the long term.

    Replies: @Anon, @Parbes, @Randal, @Talha

    Supposedly he let a lot of Islamists out of prison back in 2011 when the protests started so they would discredit the opposition.

    Freed prisoners was what the opposition wanted.

    • Agree: melanf
  • Harvard University maintains an online database of "implicit association tests" that purport to show your subconscious outlook on things. In the race test, you are presented with a series of pictures of Whites and Blacks, which you have to racially identify; these are interspersed with adjectives (joyous, anger, cherish, horror), which you simultaneously have to...
  • @German_reader
    @reiner Tor

    I don't know, does it happen in Russia? I don't know about Russian media, but I'd imagine they'd have lots of the official line ("It's still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun"). Russia Today is like that, if I understand correctly. Now that may of course be aimed at a Western audience, but I'm skeptical that mainstream media for domestic consumption in Russia is much different in this regard.

    Replies: @melanf, @Boris N

    I don’t know, does it happen in Russia? (“It’s still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun”)

    Its agenda has long been forgotten. Currently in Russia the prevailing view – that white heterosexuals are the victims of racial discrimination in America

    • LOL: German_reader
  • The USSR played the leading role in the defeat of Nazi Germany, which the majority of Europeans recognized in 1945 even if half a century of Hollywood propaganda successfully displaced it in the public imagination in favor of the USA. But what about within the USSR itself? Back in January 2015, during his brief nationalist...
  • @Vladimir Brovkin
    Of course the Russians had suffered the heaviest losses. That is obvious. For me the question is why did they suffer more losses than the Germans. Leaving the civilian casualties aside for the moment, as these were obviously victims of German occupation, why front line losses on the Soviet side were so much heavier. Here it seems there are two contradictory explanations. On the one hand you have serious strategic incompetence of Soviet High Command, presumably comrade Stalin. Specifically I mean prepositioning Soviet air force near the border to be wiped out on the first day, the refusal to allow orderly retreat in August 1941, the ridiculous order to advance in May 1942 near Kharkov that cost 400000 Soviet losses, the similar incompetent order a year later in same area that cost loss of Kharkov after it had been liberated. And the list goes on. Stalin was impatient, inconsiderate of losses, did not like to hear objections, made people around him afraid to speak their mind, tended to blame others for his own blunders. All these factors cost hundreds of thousands of Russian lives that could have been avoided.
    On the other hand, when I read Alaxander Werth, a French Russian journalist describe the battle of Stalingrad, I notice things no one is talking about now. We all are so profoundly respectful and grateful to those who fought and died fighting the Germans that we forget or refuse to acknowledge what Werth noticed writing as an eyewitness. There was a lot of cynicism among the troops, a lot of disbelief that anybody could withstand German onslaught. Werth writes about lack of desire to go a die in an endless war that was being lost, as it seemed in 1942. From here follows a conclusion that many patriotic Russians will find uncomfortable, namely that the war was won because of Stalin\s ruthless determination. He held the reluctant and the doubtful in check, he reversed the catastrophic panicky retreat of 1941 and 1942. he managed to mobilize, arm and throw into battle millions new troops after 3 million were taken prisoner of war. He basically overcame apathy, defeatism, fear, lack of belief in the possibility of victory by 1943. That is why despite the blunders, despite the strategic incompetence, he whipped the Russians to victory.

    Replies: @melanf, @AP, @Miro23

    For me the question is why did they suffer more losses than the Germans.

    The main reason is simple – the German industry was far superior to the Soviet. The Wehrmacht was armed with much better weapons.

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    @melanf

    Some Soviet weapons were better. The T-34 and KV-1 tanks were not something the Germans really expected and were a shock, although they were not yet in wide service. The Red Army was also the first the Germans encountered to make wide use of a semi-automatic rifle - the SVT-40. (The Germans did not encounter Garand-wielding American troops until 1943.)
    However, in 1940 some French and British tanks had been superior to the Germans. Hitler had expected to lose a million dead in the French etc. campaign. In the end he won decisive victory in the West with German fatalities of no more than 49,000.
    The Germans had better trained troops and used shock tactics to punch through their opponents in West and East, supplemented by close support air attacks, and when their armoured columns were on the move these often had very few casualties. The German casualty toll rose significantly when they hit prepared positions or had to reduce pockets of defenders. The bulk of the losses were in the follow-up infantry divisions - the panzers just kept going until supply problems and the vastness of the USSR began to take a toll.

    Replies: @Cyrano, @melanf, @MarkinLA

    , @Bertie Wooster
    @melanf

    Wermacht was armed not with better weapons most of the time, but with more weapons. One is of particular importance - Germans used about two times more artillery munitions (in terms of weight, not number) than Soviets till the second half of 1944 or so.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Anonymous
    @melanf

    Soviet troops (quantity and toughness yes, skill sometimes) and American manufacturing won the war. Without US supplies the Russians might still have won, but at even higher cost, and just might have lost.


    Of course had Hitler been a thoroughgoing racist he would have won. He'd have ignored the Japanese, not declaring war against the US for long enough for antiwar, anticommunist and anti-Jewish forces to keep the US out, and wiping the Brits out at Dunkirk. And taking Moscow and butchering Stalin and especially Lazar Kaganovich instead of taking Stalingrad to show the old beast.


    Let me make it clear that I think WWII was an unmitigated tragedy and did not benefit Russians, nor Germans, nor British nor Americans, and that while as an American of British and German extraction I feel kinship to those peoples, who are close relations, I do not disrespect Russians and Russia in any way. I am simply pointing out that Hitler was in a better position to achieve total victory than many today believe. Some believe that he invaded Russia because he believed Stalin was planning on invading Germany. I don't know if that is true or not.

    Replies: @colm, @Beckow

  • @Uebersetzer
    I was browsing through a book some years back that was based on German Wehrmacht intelligence summaries. Can't recall the name - it was in a London bookshop. Among other things it noted that ethnic Russians tended to be most loyal to the USSR, followed by Central Asians. Ukrainians, Belarusians and Caucasians were considered to be much less loyal to the USSR. I don't recall either Jews or Balts being mentioned - while Nazi propaganda tended to present Jews as the real rulers of the Soviet Union, German intelligence summaries seemed to overlook them as not being a significant element in population terms.

    Replies: @melanf

    Ukrainians, Belarusians and Caucasians were considered to be much less loyal to the USSR.

    Strange point of view. Belarusians fought a despeate guerrilla war against the German occupation .
    “Caucasians” – the unification of a very, very different peoples

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    Strange point of view. Belarusians fought a despeate guerrilla war against the German occupation .
     
    True, but it's a bit more complicated than the modern heroic Soviet mythology in Belarus. Not all partisans were locals, and many villages were neutral and not friendly towards the Soviets. Soviet partisans often conducted raids near neutral villages so that the Germans would retaliate against the villages, slaughtering villagers and turning those villages pro-Soviet. A cynical, deadly but effective ploy.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Uebersetzer
    @melanf

    My recollection of the pages in the book I was referring to - a summary of a German intelligence summary in fact, was "Caucasians" were meant to include Armenians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis and also Chechens, Dagestanis etc. It did not seem to have the degree of fine distinctions that Karlin's source has. Essentially the Germans were summarising from experience which nationa groups in the USSR were more likely to go over to the Germans, in general terms and which were more likely to stay loyal to the USSR. In broad terms it bore out Karlin's article, I would say, especially re ethnic Russians.
    There was Belarusian partisan resistance (aided by the dense forests and swamps to be found there) but there was an extensive collaborator movement as well.

  • @AP
    @melanf


    Strange point of view. Belarusians fought a despeate guerrilla war against the German occupation .
     
    True, but it's a bit more complicated than the modern heroic Soviet mythology in Belarus. Not all partisans were locals, and many villages were neutral and not friendly towards the Soviets. Soviet partisans often conducted raids near neutral villages so that the Germans would retaliate against the villages, slaughtering villagers and turning those villages pro-Soviet. A cynical, deadly but effective ploy.

    Replies: @melanf

    True, but it’s a bit more complicated. Not all partisans were locals, and many villages were neutral and not friendly towards the Soviets. Soviet partisans often conducted raids …

    The same thing happened in the occupied territories of “true” Russia.
    Probably the same thing happened everywhere where fought a guerrilla war.

  • @J
    The Buryats aka the Eskimo and other circumpolar peoples were made fun in the Red Army, yet they were the best fighters. These valiant people conquered China (Manchus) and an eye should be kept on them.

    Replies: @melanf

    The Buryats aka the Eskimo and other circumpolar peoples were made fun in the Red Army, yet they were the best fighters. These valiant people conquered China (Manchus) and an eye should be kept on them.

    Buryatia is the Mongols. They (along with other mongolskij tribes) really conquered China, but in the era of Genghis Khan and his descendants.

  • @Uebersetzer
    @melanf

    Some Soviet weapons were better. The T-34 and KV-1 tanks were not something the Germans really expected and were a shock, although they were not yet in wide service. The Red Army was also the first the Germans encountered to make wide use of a semi-automatic rifle - the SVT-40. (The Germans did not encounter Garand-wielding American troops until 1943.)
    However, in 1940 some French and British tanks had been superior to the Germans. Hitler had expected to lose a million dead in the French etc. campaign. In the end he won decisive victory in the West with German fatalities of no more than 49,000.
    The Germans had better trained troops and used shock tactics to punch through their opponents in West and East, supplemented by close support air attacks, and when their armoured columns were on the move these often had very few casualties. The German casualty toll rose significantly when they hit prepared positions or had to reduce pockets of defenders. The bulk of the losses were in the follow-up infantry divisions - the panzers just kept going until supply problems and the vastness of the USSR began to take a toll.

    Replies: @Cyrano, @melanf, @MarkinLA

    Some Soviet weapons were better. The T-34 and KV-1 tanks were

    It is a myth. In 1940, the Soviet Union conducted comparative tests of the Pz III (purchased from Germany) and T-34, and came to the conclusion that the Pz III is superior to the Soviet tanks . The test results were so disappointing that the military is expected to stop production of the T-34, but instead to produce a copy of the Pz III .

    The study of the last examples of a foreign tank shows that the most successful among them is the German medium tank “Daimler-Benz T-3G”… He has the most successful combination of mobility and armor protection at a small combat weight – approx. 20t… It says that the specified tank at a comparable T-34 armor protection, with a more spacious fighting compartment, excellent mobility…. the main disadvantage of this type of tank is it’s armament of 37mm gun.
    But according to the Sept. the intelligence report, these tanks already remade by armor up to 45-52 mm and armament 47mm or even 55mm gun…
    I think that the German army has a tank that has the best combination of mobility, firepower and armor protection, backed by a good review with jobs crew member…
    Need not wasting a minute to continue work on the tank “126” (copy of Pz III ) to bring all of its characteristics to the level of German cars.
    13/IX-40 Fedorenko
    “.

    After the war the German generals were lying about the combat quality of the Soviet tanks to justify their own defeat. The quality of other types of weapons of the Soviet army was also greatly inferior to the enemys weapon

    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    @melanf

    The Panzer III could not be equipped within any cannon bigger than 50mm. The T-34 entered service with a 76mm cannon and was upgraded to the T-34/85 with an 85mm cannon. If the Panzer III was so outstanding, why did German AFV development focus on the Panzer IV, V (Panther) and VI (Tiger I and Tiger II)?

    Replies: @melanf

  • @Cyrano
    @Uebersetzer

    T-34 was the best tank in the world until 1943 when the Panthers and the Tigers appeared, which were better, but it was too little too late. The name of the tank is misleading, it should really be called T-41 because that’s when it really entered service. 1934 is the year that they started working on its design. It won’t be an exaggeration to say that it was the weapon that won the war, even the Russians admit that they couldn’t have done it without the T-34.

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

    T-34 was the best tank in the world until 1943

    No (see comment above). T-34 from the beginning of the war was greatly inferior to the German tanks in fighting qualities.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    @melanf

    I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about. I think that it was Guderian who suggested to Hitler that the way to fix the situation on the eastern front was to start producing T-34 to fight the Russians.

    Of course Hitler would have none of it and the Germans designed the Panther, which pretty much copied the main idea of the design of T-34 – sloped armor for better protection. If you look at those two tanks, the similarity is obvious. T-34 was superior to any tank in the world up to the Panthers and the Tigers, which were never produced in any significant numbers to make a real difference. It has been voted as the best tank of all times overall.

    http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-t-34r-soviet-t-34-in-german-service.htm

    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/top-10-tanks-of-all-time.html

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @melanf

  • @Bertie Wooster
    @melanf

    Wermacht was armed not with better weapons most of the time, but with more weapons. One is of particular importance - Germans used about two times more artillery munitions (in terms of weight, not number) than Soviets till the second half of 1944 or so.

    Replies: @melanf

    Wermacht was armed not with better weapons most of the time, but with more weapons.

    Not all types of weapons. For example the Soviet Union produced more tanks and aircraft. But the quality of German weapons in most cases was much better

    • Replies: @MarkinPNW
    @melanf

    The quality of the design of German weapons was much better, but when the Germans resorted to using slave labor - including many POW's - in their war industry, the actual combat efficiency greatly declined. German Generals on the Eastern front refused to send their tanks back for overhaul even when baldy worn and damaged due to the fact that they almost always returned from overhaul in even worse condition, and on the Western front after the Normandy landings over half of the German tanks assigned to defend from the West never even made it into combat due to mechanical breakdowns and sabotage.

    , @Bertie Wooster
    @melanf

    >Not all types of weapons. For example the Soviet Union produced more tanks and aircraft.

    Yes, for example Soviet Union had much more artillery pieces (and they were on average better than analogous German ones), but in the same time what a gun worth if you don't have enough ammo for it?

    It was main Soviet problem and why there is such a disparity in the losses for the first half of the war and some months afterwards. Artillery produced about 70% of overall casualties in the war. The side with advantage in artillery suffer less losses than the enemy.

    Americans enjoyed a definitive superiority over Germans in the artillery duel in 1944 and casualties reflect that.

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic

  • About two thirds of the USSR's 27 million casualties were civilians - that is, almost 10% of its prewar population. Had those percentages been applied to Nazi Germany, it would lost 8 million people - an order of magnitude than the 400,000 civilians it lost due to Allied strategic bombing, and the 600,000 who died...
  • @German_reader
    @5371

    I actually think there were quite a lot of rapes committed by Red army soldiers at least in Hungary as well which was also regarded as a defeated enemy state by the Soviets (Romania probably much less so because they switched sides). I also seem to recall that some Yugoslav communist (Milovan Djilas) complained to the Soviets about rapes committed by Soviet soldiers in Yugoslavia, and similar in Poland.
    I've never heard of a convincing case that those rapes were ordered from above (instead of being tolerated, which seems to have been Stalin's attitude for some time). It's not like rape is an uncommon phenomenon in war after all, if you don't take disciplinary measures against it, many soldiers will do it. All the more so in a war like WW2 on the Eastern front where soldiers were brutalized and had to live with permanent expectation of their own death (iirc Soviet losses in the battle of Berlin were about as high as American losses in the entire war).

    Replies: @Greasy William, @melanf, @Kilo 4/11

    iirc Soviet losses in the battle of Berlin were about as high as American losses in the entire war

    Soviet losses in the battle of Berlin – 70 000 (killed)
    American losses in the entire war – 400 000

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @melanf

    Ok, looks like I was wrong. It was still a lot more extreme than what American troops faced in the European theatre during WW2 (Hürtgenwald notwithstanding).

    , @Dreadnought
    @melanf

    That's including the Pacific theatre

  • The USSR played the leading role in the defeat of Nazi Germany, which the majority of Europeans recognized in 1945 even if half a century of Hollywood propaganda successfully displaced it in the public imagination in favor of the USA. But what about within the USSR itself? Back in January 2015, during his brief nationalist...
  • @Cyrano
    @melanf

    I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about. I think that it was Guderian who suggested to Hitler that the way to fix the situation on the eastern front was to start producing T-34 to fight the Russians.

    Of course Hitler would have none of it and the Germans designed the Panther, which pretty much copied the main idea of the design of T-34 – sloped armor for better protection. If you look at those two tanks, the similarity is obvious. T-34 was superior to any tank in the world up to the Panthers and the Tigers, which were never produced in any significant numbers to make a real difference. It has been voted as the best tank of all times overall.

    http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-t-34r-soviet-t-34-in-german-service.htm

    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/top-10-tanks-of-all-time.html

    Replies: @Diversity Heretic, @melanf

    don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about.

    I have idea.
    When historians turned to the military documents of the era ( not to the memoirs of German generals, and postwar Soviet propaganda) the myth about superiority of T-34 collapsed like a house of cards.
    T-34-76 (compared to Pz III) had a larger caliber gun and thicker armor. However, the Pz III had a cumulative shells and APDS (T-34 did not have such shells ) that completely balanced the superiority of the Soviet tank in gun and thickness of armor. In the rest the German tank was superior. Pz III shot faster, Pz III shot more precisely, the Pz III had the best optics, had a better radio, better maneuvering, it was more reliable, etc.

    However in 1941 the battle between the tanks were a rarity. In 1941 the Germans had numerous anti-tank guns equipped with APDSI and cumulative shells. Because of this, the Germans easily destroyed T-34. The Soviet Union not had such weapons – first piercing projectiles in the USSR were made only in 1942 (for the sake of 4,000 tons of tungsten was obtained from China). Production сumulative shells in the USSR was established only at the end of the war

    Of course Hitler would have none of it and the Germans designed the Panther, which pretty much copied the main idea of the design of T-34

    Is this a joke? Compare

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    @melanf

    I think that in terms of armor protection, neither T-34 nor Panzer III can compete with the thickness of your skull. So therefore I declare you a superior tank design compared to both of them.

    T-34 had better armor, more fire power, better manoeuverability, better power to weight ratio, but Panzer III had better radio and better optics and that made it a better tank? The shells fired from Panzer III were bouncing off of T-34, making it unimportant whether it could fire faster or more accurately. Furthermore if Panzer III and IV were better designs than T-34, why would the Germans bother designing Panzer V and VI? To attract more investors?

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

  • @Diversity Heretic
    @Cyrano

    Agreed. The T-34 was the best tank in the world at the beginning of World War II. Heinz Guderian, who knew something about tanks, wanted to produce T-34 copies and one version of the Panther (the one not selected) resembled the T-34 quite closely. The Panthers and Tigers and even the late model PzKpfw Mk IVH were arguably superior on a tank-by-tank comparison, but T-34s were produced in much, much larger numbers. It's actually kind of amazing that the big German victories of 1941 and 1942 were won with PzKpfw Mk III's and IV's and even a lot of PzKpfw Mk II's and Skoda 35s and 38t's. German superiority was generally not a matter of equipment but of leadership, training and tactics. The Russians caught on eventually, but it took some time and a lot of casualties.

    Replies: @melanf, @reiner Tor

    Heinz Guderian, who knew something about tanks

    Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians), but a talented writer. About the T 34 Guderian in his memoirs shamelessly lied, for obvious reasons.
    The Germans early in the war captured a huge number of T-34, but almost did not use them. That is, the fighting qualities of the T-34 did not cause enthusiasm among the Germans

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @melanf


    Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians)
     
    Which military historians?

    Bundeswehr colonel Karl-Heinz Frieser described in his seminal The Blitzkrieg Legend how crucial Guderian's role was in the French campaign. He was the only one to fully understand mobile warfare. He also executed the plan competently.

    He was later largely successful in Russia as long as the circumstances were reasonably favorable.

    It doesn't mean he couldn't have lied in his memoirs. He probably did. So what? It doesn't make him a bad general.

    Replies: @melanf

  • @Diversity Heretic
    @melanf

    The Panzer III could not be equipped within any cannon bigger than 50mm. The T-34 entered service with a 76mm cannon and was upgraded to the T-34/85 with an 85mm cannon. If the Panzer III was so outstanding, why did German AFV development focus on the Panzer IV, V (Panther) and VI (Tiger I and Tiger II)?

    Replies: @melanf

    If the Panzer III was so outstanding, why did German AFV development focus on the Panzer IV, V (Panther) and VI (Tiger I and Tiger II)?

    Because the arms race. The Soviet Union in 1944 was replaced the T-34-76

    by T-34-85

    and tank KW

    by tank IS-2

  • @Cyrano
    @melanf

    I think that in terms of armor protection, neither T-34 nor Panzer III can compete with the thickness of your skull. So therefore I declare you a superior tank design compared to both of them.

    T-34 had better armor, more fire power, better manoeuverability, better power to weight ratio, but Panzer III had better radio and better optics and that made it a better tank? The shells fired from Panzer III were bouncing off of T-34, making it unimportant whether it could fire faster or more accurately. Furthermore if Panzer III and IV were better designs than T-34, why would the Germans bother designing Panzer V and VI? To attract more investors?

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

    The shells fired from Panzer III were bouncing off of T-34, making it unimportant whether it could fire faster or more accurately

    This fairy tales (composed after the war by defeated German generals)
    cumulative shells played an important role in the tank troops of the Wehrmacht….
    As an example, the 3rd armored division, which operated in may 1942 at Kharkov: third tank battalion, 6th tank regiment of the division had 5 tanks “Pz.II”, 34 tanks “Pz.III” with 50-mm and 6 “Pz.IV” with 75-mm gun. In the period from 12 to 22 may, the battalion destroyed:
    5 tanks, KW is immobilized using cumulative shells
    36 tanks “T-34” destroyed: 24 tanks by 75-mm cumulative shells , and 12 tanks “T-34” by 50-mm armor-piercing shells of tank “Pz.III.”
    16 tanks “BT” destroyed by shells of 50 mm guns
    5 tanks “MK.II” ( “Matilda”) disabled…

    Isaev A. V., “Ten myths of the Second World War”

    50-mm gun tanks “Pz.III”… successfully punched through side armor of the “KV-1” (thickness 75 mm) using a piercing projectile from a distance of …300 m,
    and punched through the frontal armor of “KW-1″ (thickness 105 mm) with a distance of 40 m.”
    Isaev A. V., “Ten myths of the Second World War”

    Armor of the T-34 is much inferior to the armor of the KW-1

  • @Cyrano
    @Uebersetzer

    T-34 was the best tank in the world until 1943 when the Panthers and the Tigers appeared, which were better, but it was too little too late. The name of the tank is misleading, it should really be called T-41 because that’s when it really entered service. 1934 is the year that they started working on its design. It won’t be an exaggeration to say that it was the weapon that won the war, even the Russians admit that they couldn’t have done it without the T-34.

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

    T-34 was the best tank in the world until 1943

    The results of testing tanks T-34 and KW by the US military at the Aberdeen proving grounds, 1942.
    http://english.battlefield.ru/en/tank-development/27-medium-tanks/95-t44.html

    General comments
    From the American point of view, our tanks are slow. Both our tanks can climb an incline better than any American tank. The welding of the armor plating is extremely crude and careless. The radio sets in laboratory tests turned out to be not bad. However, because of poor shielding and poor protection, after installation in the tanks the sets did not manage to establish normal communications at distances greater than 10 miles. The compactness of the radio sets and their intelligent placement in the tanks was pleasing. The machining of equipment components and parts was, with few exceptions, very poor. In particular, the Americans were troubled by the disgraceful design and extremely poor work on the transmission links on the T-34. After much torment they made a new ones and replaced ours. All the tanks mechanisms demand very frequent fine-tuning…..
    Сomparing American and Russian tanks, it is clear that driving Russian tanks is much harder. A virtuosity is demanded of Russian drivers in changing gear on the move, special experience in using friction clutches, great experience as a mechanic, and the ability to keep tanks in working condition (adjustments and repairs of components, which are constantly becoming disabled). This greatly complicates the training of tankers and drivers.
    Judging by samples, Russians when producing tanks pay little attention to careful machining or the finishing and technology of small parts and components, which leads to the loss of the advantage what would otherwise accrue from what on the whole are well designed tanks.
    Despite the advantages of the use of diesel, the good contours of the tanks, thick armor, good and reliable armaments, the successful design of the tracks etc., Russian tanks are significantly inferior to American tanks in their simplicity of driving, manoeuvrability, the strength of firing (reference to muzzle velocity), speed, the reliability of mechanical construction and the ease of keeping them running
    .
    The head of the 2nd Department of the Main Intelligence Department of the Red Army, major-general Khlopov

  • @Cyrano
    @melanf

    I think that in terms of armor protection, neither T-34 nor Panzer III can compete with the thickness of your skull. So therefore I declare you a superior tank design compared to both of them.

    T-34 had better armor, more fire power, better manoeuverability, better power to weight ratio, but Panzer III had better radio and better optics and that made it a better tank? The shells fired from Panzer III were bouncing off of T-34, making it unimportant whether it could fire faster or more accurately. Furthermore if Panzer III and IV were better designs than T-34, why would the Germans bother designing Panzer V and VI? To attract more investors?

    Replies: @melanf, @melanf

    Furthermore if Panzer III and IV were better designs than T-34, why would the Germans bother designing Panzer V and VI? To attract more investors?

    1) Because technically simple T-34 was produced in huge quantities, the result was (to late 1942) the defeat of the Wehrmacht. German tanks were better, but the numerical superiority of Soviet armored forces were more important. The Germans tried by new tanks to turn the tide of war

    2) Because the Germans were expecting (rightly) that the Soviet Union rearming its army with more advanced tanks (as happened in 1944 – The Soviet Union replaced the T-34-76 by T-34-85 and tank KW by tank IS-2)

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    @melanf


    Furthermore if Panzer III and IV were better designs than T-34, why would the Germans bother designing Panzer V and VI? To attract more investors?

    1) Because technically simple T-34 was produced in huge quantities,
     

    You are not making any sense, my friend. The Germans designed Panzer V an VI because T-34 was produced in large quantities? And when the Germans produced Panzer V an VI, the Russians got scared and stopped making the T-34 in large quantities?

    I can see that you've read a lot on the subject, but you have difficulty properly processing the information. T-34 was the best tank ever - in what it managed to accomplish. You can try to argue until you turn blue in the face, I won't buy it.

  • @reiner Tor
    @melanf


    Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians)
     
    Which military historians?

    Bundeswehr colonel Karl-Heinz Frieser described in his seminal The Blitzkrieg Legend how crucial Guderian's role was in the French campaign. He was the only one to fully understand mobile warfare. He also executed the plan competently.

    He was later largely successful in Russia as long as the circumstances were reasonably favorable.

    It doesn't mean he couldn't have lied in his memoirs. He probably did. So what? It doesn't make him a bad general.

    Replies: @melanf

    Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians)

    Which military historians?….
    He was later largely successful in Russia as long as the circumstances were reasonably favorable.

    http://topbloger.livejournal.com/14260584.html

    Alexey Isaev: For example, I became extremely skeptical of Guderian. It’s possible to say that the darling of the public. But as a tank commander he was, shall we say, not the sharpest knife in the table. And when he directly commanded the troops, always Encirclement (which he did in 1941) was leaky. So it was near Minsk and Bryansk under, everywhere had closed the Encirclement. … as the commander of Panzer group, and Panzer army later, I will say that Guderian not enthusiastic.
    This is a man who, in his memoirs, modestly talks about his failures. Therefore, following a decade of study including German documents, he has been a disappointment. Manstein is a man who really showed throughout the war the high level of professionalism. But still the tank commanders one and two in Germany were …. but Kleist and Hothт. People who for months and years, quite successfully led to battle tanks. Therefore, we should not ever judge a person according to his memoirs. … for example, Hothт, wrote memoirs, a weak, but nevertheless he was the man who came to Minsk, Smolensk, Moscow and Stalingrad and Hothт is definitely a professional tank commander. But Guderian in literature was more successful …. From a literary point of view is very nice to read, but this does not always coincide with reality.”

    Guderian is Moltke the younger of WWII

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @melanf

    As I wrote already, in 1940 he was the one who proposed to Manstein to develop his plan into a true "Blitzkrieg" plan. He was probably among the first ones to understand the possibilities of the new mobile warfare, and he was also the first one to implement it. That later on perhaps Hoth and von Kleist proved better at implementing (if Isayev knows what he's writing about, then probably they were) doesn't mean he was a bad general, it's just that his strengths were theory and planning and perhaps not so much execution. (But he was competent enough in execution to be able to execute a true Blitzkrieg for the first time in history.)

    This Wikipedia section is based on Frieser's book I already referenced:


    Manstein first thought to follow annihilation theory (Vernichtungsgedanke), envisaging a swing from Sedan to the north, rapidly to annihilate the Allied armies in a cauldron battle (Kesselschlacht). When discussing his intentions with Lieutenant-General Heinz Guderian, commander of the XIX Panzer Corps, the latter proposed to turn it into a strategy to avoid the main body of the Allied armies and swiftly advance with the armoured divisions to the English Channel, to cause the Allies to collapse by catching them off guard and cutting their supply lines. It was thus Guderian who introduced the true "Blitzkrieg" elements to the plan, while Manstein had at first many objections against this aspect, especially fearing the long open flank created by such an advance. Guderian managed to convince him that the danger of a French counterattack from the south could be averted by a simultaneous secondary spoiling offensive to the south, in the general direction of Reims.
     


    Martin van Creveld Israeli historian in his seminal study comparing the German and American troops in WW2 (Fighting Power) mentions that in the Prussian and later in the German army, when assessing officers, they were careful not to disparage officers simply because they deviated from a certain ideal type: many different styles and types could be successful commanders or officers, and everybody had different strengths and weaknesses, and often someone who was weaker in theory proved superb in execution and vice versa - obviously many skills were needed for the army as a whole, and so they needed to give balanced assessments of officers or candidates, because it was better for the army to have many different types of officers with different skillsets and strengths and weaknesses than to have a uniform set of officers with everybody having the same strengths and weaknesses.
  • @Anonymous
    In WWII, three countries had massive guerrilla movements and ended up freeing themselves from German occupation without direct military help from outsiders: Russia, Serbia, Greece. Common denominator? Orthodox religion. Was it a factor? I think it was. Germans were strongly "the others". Unlike, say, in Holland or even Czechoslovakia.

    We always hear about French resistance but in reality it was nothing in comparison to what Greeks and Serbs did.

    We always hear how devastating the summer 1941 was for Russians and how Stalin was to blame for essentially decapitating the army. Yet, we never hear that militarily the Russians even then performed considerably better than French did in 1940.

    In terms of % of total population dead, Poland suffered most than any other country.

    Replies: @Uebersetzer, @reiner Tor, @melanf

    We always hear how devastating the summer 1941 was for Russians and how Stalin was to blame for essentially decapitating the army. Yet, we never hear that militarily the Russians even then performed considerably better than French did in 1940.

    The Soviet military command was a lot lot better than the French military command. Soviet troops (unlike the French) always constantly counterattacked against the Germans, which ultimately led to the failure of “Barbarossa”. If in 39-40 Soviet generals commanded the French army, the Germans would have been defeated in Belgium

    About “decapitating the army” the Soviet myth. Terror has affected a relatively small number of officers. Military talents of the majority of victims are questionable.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @melanf


    If in 39-40 Soviet generals commanded the French army, the Germans would have been defeated in Belgium
     
    Highly questionable.
    , @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    The French were caught out by the Germans taking a very high risk approach of driving a tank army along single track roads through the dense Ardennes forest. They managed to do it unobserved but one chance discovery and a few bombs would have pinned them there as sitting targets. It was an intelligence failure not a failure of arms.

  • About two thirds of the USSR's 27 million casualties were civilians - that is, almost 10% of its prewar population. Had those percentages been applied to Nazi Germany, it would lost 8 million people - an order of magnitude than the 400,000 civilians it lost due to Allied strategic bombing, and the 600,000 who died...
  • @AP
    @JL


    Among the ridiculous things I’ve heard are, “Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler” (whatever that even means) and “most of the Soviet citizens killed in WW2 were Ukrainians.” This is coming from college educated, 120+ IQ people.
     
    "Stalin responsible for more deaths than Hitler" is false but not ridiculously so. Hitler beat Stalin but about 3 million people but both monsters killed people in the millions and both were far deadlier than anyone who came before, in centuries.

    A lot of college educated Russians with high IQs believe nonsense also, and sometimes even about their immediate neighbor, never mind about a place on the other side of the world.

    Replies: @melanf, @JL

    Hitler beat Stalin but both monsters killed people in the millions and both were far deadlier than anyone who came before, in centuries.

    In the case of Stalin – not millions.

    http://polit.ru/article/2007/12/11/repressii/
    “…In fact, the number of prisoners for political reasons (for “counterrevolutionary crimes”) in the USSR in the period from 1921 to 1953, i.e. after 33 years was about 3.8 million people… during this period ( 1921 to 1954 ) has been convicted 3 777 380 people, including to capital punishment – 642 980, to the contents in camps and prisons for a term of 25 years and below – 2 369 220, into exile and expulsion – 765 180 people“.

    Of course it’s possible to start to count “victims of famine”. But in this case, Stalin will be a great humanist, in comparison with the rulers of the British Empire.

    A cruel tax and trade-usurious exploitation of the peasantry (in India) had caused widespread hunger . If 1825-1850. the famine twice struck the country and claimed 0.4 million human lives, in 1850-1875 famine killed 5 million, in 1875-1900. — 26 million.”
    (ИСТОРИЯ ВОСТОКА IV Восток в новое время (конец XVIII — начало XX в.) Книга 2)

    Remember Mahatma Gandhi: “Hitlerism and Churchillism are in fact the same thing”

    • Replies: @szopen
    @melanf

    642 thousands? Interesting. Because victims of "Polish action" before WW2 are 111 thousand Poles (And Russians; Polosh historians tend to forget, that ethnic Russian with Polish names, spouses of Poles and friends of Poles were executed too). So, 1/6 of executions would be Poles? In addition, the estimated number of Poles who were killed (in executions, or died in gulags, or in transport to gulags) is at least 150.000. 320.000 were deported. Obviously, you cannot count just people executed - in initial years of Kolyma gulag, mortality was well above 80%. The number of deported, arrested etc in 1939-1945 is at least 800.000, and some historians are claiming numbers as high as 1.8 milion. The interesting fact is that NKVD data claimed only 320.000 people - seems that families of people deported, who were deported as well, were not counted in official NKVD stats!

    Basically this data claims that Poles were massively overrepresented. Hard to believe that. Just as it is hard to believe that data.

    , @AP
    @melanf


    “…In fact, the number of prisoners for political reasons (for “counterrevolutionary crimes”) in the USSR in the period from 1921 to 1953, i.e. after 33 years was about 3.8 million people… during this period ( 1921 to 1954 ) has been convicted 3 777 380 people, including to capital punishment – 642 980,
     
    Snyder:

    "In all, 682,691 people were killed during the Great Terror, to which might be added a few hundred thousand more Soviet citizens shot in smaller actions."

    I personally know of people such as kulaks who were shot and buried in a mass grave, whose murders probably weren't recorded in central archives.

    Once can include artificial famines also, of course. you are correct that these were worse in India. I was Eurocentric in my comment.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  • The USSR played the leading role in the defeat of Nazi Germany, which the majority of Europeans recognized in 1945 even if half a century of Hollywood propaganda successfully displaced it in the public imagination in favor of the USA. But what about within the USSR itself? Back in January 2015, during his brief nationalist...
  • @reiner Tor
    @Chris T.

    That's very good.

    Replies: @melanf

    That’s very good.

    Not very good. The author accuses the USSR in the mistaken pursuit of quantity at the expense of quality. But for the Soviet Union (with a hastily created industry, and unskilled labor) it was not possible to produce the same high quality products as the Germans. In the end, the Soviet Union produced a lot of inferior tanks (so that the numerical superiority compensated the lack of quality) – strategy that fully worked, and led to the victory.

    And in the article, a lot of juggling. For example, the author believes that the Arab-Israeli war – proof of unfitness for action of Soviet tanks. But how then should be assessed the extermination of the latest Saudi “Abrams” by Houthis (armed with Soviet weapons )?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @melanf

    Yes, those points are wrong, but the general thrust of the blogpost is a catalogue of the weaknesses of the T-34.


    for the Soviet Union (with a hastily created industry, and unskilled labor) it was not possible to produce the same high quality products as the Germans. In the end, the Soviet Union produced a lot of inferior tanks (so that the numerical superiority compensated the lack of quality) – strategy that fully worked, and led to the victory.
     
    This is true, and reminds me of another seeming shortcoming of the Soviets. A lot of observers (not only Germans, but for example Hungarians, too) have noticed that the Soviets often attacked frontally against fortified positions, essentially relying on very high concentrations of forces and thus created local numerical superiority. The disadvantage was that it led to very high casualties. Many have criticized Soviet leadership for not bypassing such positions.

    Well, the Soviets tried this (they were aware that it was better to bypass and encircle fortified positions than to attack them frontally), but the Germans' tactical superiority meant that they quickly linked up with neighboring fortified positions and so cut off supply lines to the advancing Soviet units. After some serious setbacks in several attacks, the Soviets started emphasizing the destruction of and sometimes even frontal attacks on such fortified positions as costlier (in blood and equipment) but simpler and more reliable methods to break through them.

    Of course, wherever a commander was fairly confident in the abilities of his subordinates, he could still try a local small-scale encirclement.

    Same thing with independence of local commanders. The Germans had the Auftragstaktik, which was great, but you needed well-trained smart officers (and NCOs and soldiers etc.) to do that. Of course the Soviets had none of this, so for them it would've been foolish to let lower ranked officers do whatever they pleased.
    , @Avery
    @melanf

    {But how then should be assessed the extermination of the latest Saudi “Abrams” by Houthis (armed with Soviet weapons )?}

    During the Israeli-Hezbollah war, Hezbollah fighters destroyed lots of Israeli Merkava tanks using modern Russian/Soviet anti-tank missiles.
    Merkava is an excellent tank, with crew protection as primary design objective (...naturally). Merkava is considered on par with modern US and British tanks: no doubt, as is with most military technology of Israel, a lot of Merkava tech, including the Chobham composite armor of Challenger and Arbams tanks, was 'transferred' from US/UK to Israel.

  • About two thirds of the USSR's 27 million casualties were civilians - that is, almost 10% of its prewar population. Had those percentages been applied to Nazi Germany, it would lost 8 million people - an order of magnitude than the 400,000 civilians it lost due to Allied strategic bombing, and the 600,000 who died...
  • @AP
    @JL


    I’m interested in the method of accounting. Whose deaths are we are talking about here? Do, for example, German soldiers during WW2 go into the Hitler column, or the Stalin column?
     
    Snyder's numbers seem rather realistic:

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2011/03/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/

    All in all, the Germans deliberately killed about 11 million noncombatants, a figure that rises to more than 12 million if foreseeable deaths from deportation, hunger, and sentences in concentration camps are included. For the Soviets during the Stalin period, the analogous figures are approximately six million and nine million.

    both were far deadlier than anyone who came before, in centuries

    Are you speaking of absolute numbers, or percentages of populations?
     
    Absolute numbers. The Irish potato famine with 1 million victims killed about 20% or so of the Irish population. In contrast, the 3-4 million famine victims in Ukraine were "only" about 10% of that Republic's population, and the 3+ million victims in Russia those years was a smaller percentage.* The million or so who were shot were a smaller % still.

    *Though about a million people died in the Kuban region of southern Russia - I don't have time to look up that region's total population in 1932 but if it was smaller than Ireland's than that region might have been worse in relative numbers, too.

    Replies: @melanf

    Absolute numbers. The Irish potato famine with 1 million victims killed about 20% or so of the Irish population. In contrast, the 3-4 million famine victims in Ukraine were “only” about 10% of that Republic’s population, and the 3+ million victims in Russia those years was a smaller percentage.* The million or so who were shot were a smaller % still.

    In 1932 in Ukraine 782 000 were born and 668 000 died, in 1933 – 359 000 were born and 1309 000 died (data from Центральное управление народохозяйственного учета Госплана СССР). 1309 000 – 668 000 = 641 000?

    • Replies: @melanf
    @melanf


    1309 000 – 668 000 = 641 000?
     
    Clarification: a natural death rate for years that preceded famine 1932-1933 in Ucraine - 524 000 persons. In 1932 in Ukraine 668 000 died, in 1933 – 1309 000 died

    Then number of victims of famine in Ucraine roghly
    (1309 000 – 524 000)+( 668 000 – 524 000) = 831 000
    , @AP
    @melanf

    So now you know more than demographers and historians? You've figured it out.

    You do realize that many births and deaths were not registered, which is why actual scholars give ranges in the 3-4 million. This reminds me of your claim of under 700,000 executed (because no execution went unregistered in central archives, right?)

    Here's a decent source, one of very many:

    http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu.au/documents/SGW-UkranianFamine_mortality.pdf

    Some relevant bits:

    "There is however a problem with the current registration data on deaths regarding
    their reliability and completeness. We know from a comparison of the survival rates
    from the 1926 to the 1939 or 1937 censuses, that a much higher proportion of the
    population died (or disappeared) between these censuses, than is indicated by the
    mortality registrations, and there has been considerable discussion about this level of
    unregistered mortality. "

    Summary:

    "The registration data indicate that Ukraine experienced a massive famine in 1931-3
    that accounted for a minimum of 1.8 million excess deaths and population loss
    (including birth losses) of 2.7 million. Depending upon the estimations made
    concerning unregistered mortality and natality, these figures could be increased to a
    level of 2.8 million to a maximum of 4.8 million excess deaths and to 3.7 million to a
    maximum of 6.7 million population losses (including birth losses).
    These figures
    would indicate that this was the largest recorded famine loss of its time, only to be
    exceeded by the famine of the Great Leap Forward in China, 1958-61."

    Deaths within the Ukrainian SSR were uneven. Cities, populated with a lot of Russians and Jews, were fed and their denizens didn't starve. The countryside where the ethnic Ukrainians lived was hit especially hard (although Russians and Jews living in the countryside were just as likely to die as were their Ukrainian neighbors).

    Replies: @melanf

  • @melanf
    @AP


    Absolute numbers. The Irish potato famine with 1 million victims killed about 20% or so of the Irish population. In contrast, the 3-4 million famine victims in Ukraine were “only” about 10% of that Republic’s population, and the 3+ million victims in Russia those years was a smaller percentage.* The million or so who were shot were a smaller % still.

     

    In 1932 in Ukraine 782 000 were born and 668 000 died, in 1933 - 359 000 were born and 1309 000 died (data from Центральное управление народохозяйственного учета Госплана СССР). 1309 000 - 668 000 = 641 000?

    Replies: @melanf, @AP

    1309 000 – 668 000 = 641 000?

    Clarification: a natural death rate for years that preceded famine 1932-1933 in Ucraine – 524 000 persons. In 1932 in Ukraine 668 000 died, in 1933 – 1309 000 died

    Then number of victims of famine in Ucraine roghly
    (1309 000 – 524 000)+( 668 000 – 524 000) = 831 000

  • @AP
    @melanf

    So now you know more than demographers and historians? You've figured it out.

    You do realize that many births and deaths were not registered, which is why actual scholars give ranges in the 3-4 million. This reminds me of your claim of under 700,000 executed (because no execution went unregistered in central archives, right?)

    Here's a decent source, one of very many:

    http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu.au/documents/SGW-UkranianFamine_mortality.pdf

    Some relevant bits:

    "There is however a problem with the current registration data on deaths regarding
    their reliability and completeness. We know from a comparison of the survival rates
    from the 1926 to the 1939 or 1937 censuses, that a much higher proportion of the
    population died (or disappeared) between these censuses, than is indicated by the
    mortality registrations, and there has been considerable discussion about this level of
    unregistered mortality. "

    Summary:

    "The registration data indicate that Ukraine experienced a massive famine in 1931-3
    that accounted for a minimum of 1.8 million excess deaths and population loss
    (including birth losses) of 2.7 million. Depending upon the estimations made
    concerning unregistered mortality and natality, these figures could be increased to a
    level of 2.8 million to a maximum of 4.8 million excess deaths and to 3.7 million to a
    maximum of 6.7 million population losses (including birth losses).
    These figures
    would indicate that this was the largest recorded famine loss of its time, only to be
    exceeded by the famine of the Great Leap Forward in China, 1958-61."

    Deaths within the Ukrainian SSR were uneven. Cities, populated with a lot of Russians and Jews, were fed and their denizens didn't starve. The countryside where the ethnic Ukrainians lived was hit especially hard (although Russians and Jews living in the countryside were just as likely to die as were their Ukrainian neighbors).

    Replies: @melanf

    Here’s a decent source, one of very many:
    http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu.au/documents/SGW-UkranianFamine_mortality.pdf

    That is, the author tries to use demographic interpolation to prove covert (unfixed in documents) deaths of millions of people.
    This approach offers great opportunities to expose covert repression during the demographic transition.
    In the future, probably political passions calmed, and it will be possible to find out who is right in the number of victims of hunger .
    At this moment, the more likely that Western historians exaggerated the number of victims of famine for political purposes (as they definitely made with the number of victims of Stalin’s terror) and the number of registered deaths gives a correct assessment.

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf


    At this moment, the more likely that Western historians exaggerated the number of victims of famine for political purposes (as they definitely made with the number of victims of Stalin’s terror) and the number of registered deaths gives a correct assessment.
     
    Complete nonsense. Even Russian estimates are much higher than the official registered death total. No significant modern researcher either in the West or in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims. This is something you personally do.

    Replies: @melanf

  • @AP
    @melanf


    At this moment, the more likely that Western historians exaggerated the number of victims of famine for political purposes (as they definitely made with the number of victims of Stalin’s terror) and the number of registered deaths gives a correct assessment.
     
    Complete nonsense. Even Russian estimates are much higher than the official registered death total. No significant modern researcher either in the West or in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims. This is something you personally do.

    Replies: @melanf

    No significant modern researcher either in the West or in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims. This is something you personally do.

    For example V. Zemskov and A. Shubin definitely takes the official death register as the actual number of victims

    A. Shubin :
    Even according to Ukrainian researcher S. V. Kulchytsky, “it is impossible not to see that the statistical authorities to properly fulfill their professional duty locking from month to month stunning mortality”.
    The Registrar phlegmatic recorded the mortality of the whole period of the famine. If you count deaths 1931 “background”, then the excess number of deaths in 1932-1933 is 1489,1 thousand. In 1931, before the famine in Ukraine died 514,7 thousand people, in 1932, when the famine was just beginning – 668,2 thousand. In 1933 the officially registered mortality was 1850,3 thousand. …There is evidence that the registry office in the midst of famine did not capture all deaths. But what is the number of unaccounted for deaths? Because in general, the Registrar recorded an unprecedented peak of mortality. This in itself suggests that the leadership of the country did not intend to “hide” the tragedy, even from myself. The underestimation of mortality could be due to local initiative .
    It is also unclear what number of died from hunger and not for other reasons related to the deterioration of the social situation.
    The number of victims may be slightly less (not all died of starvation), and some more (there may be some underreporting in the civil registry offices). Objective assessment of victims in this way is in the corridor of 1-2 million

    I previously gave the wrong figure – In 1933 the officially registered mortality in Ukraine was 1 850 000 , not 1 350 000. I apologize for this error

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Link and year?

    Replies: @melanf

  • @AP
    @melanf

    Link and year?

    Replies: @melanf

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Shubin is a leftist activist who would clearly be a lot more biased than any of the Western scholars I linked to:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD,_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80_%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    Here is the bio of Wheatcroft whom I quoted:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_G._Wheatcroft

    You questioned Western scholars' objectivity and then you use Shubin? Really?

    Zemskov seems to be legitimate. But the Zemskov article you linked to was about political repression, not famine. From its abstract:

    "After checking up the KGB archives, and documents of division responsible for NKVD-MVD special settlements, the author spills the light on real numbers of political repressions in USSR. In his view, the total number of political victims does not exceed 2, 6 million people. This number implies over 800 thousand of death sentenced for political reasons, around 600 thousand political prisoners who died in labor camps, and about 1, 2 million people died in exile (including ‘Kulak Exile’) and during transportation (deported ethnic groups and others)."

  • Shubin is a leftist activist

    Totally agree. And I do not share views оf Shubin. But in this case (famine 1932-33), Shubin spoke quite reasonably.

    You questioned Western scholars’ objectivity

    Yes. “Western scholars’” work on this topic – party propaganda, like Soviet “The History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union “. Of course the works Shubin is also party propaganda (from other political positions).

    you use Shubin? Really?

    I pointed out that your statement “No significant modern researcher either in in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims” is wrong (regardless of the rightness/wrongness of Shubin)

  • * Russian nuclear weapons expert Pavel Podvig is giving an AMA at /r/Russia right now. * Christians, in an Epochal Shift, Are Leaving the Middle East Eurabia is demographically implausible during this century. Greater Lebanon, however, is. * The curious rise of the ‘white left’ as a Chinese internet insult Although the emphasis varies, baizuo...
  • Dynamics in Russia are remarkable analogous, though unlike the Chinese, I don’t think we’ve even progressed to the point of having our own term for SJWs.

    99% of the population of Russia knows nothing about the existence of SJW. PC-fans of all shades will be in Russian called “толераст” (this is probably the most accurate analogue of word “baizuo”)

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @ussr andy
    @melanf

    толераст is very good!

    , @Philip Owen
    @melanf

    Ah. I couldn't understand why being called Tolerant was an insult. The person involved speaks no English and the remark was in passing. I had suggested that the government should allow homosexuality in private. (Actually, I am OK with Civil Partnership - it is the government's job to be tolerant but when they call it marriage, I want to find a shotgun).

  • The Swedish Institute has acknowledged me as a far right extremist "dedicated to hate against migrants, women, LGBTQ people, and human rights organizations." I am in the company of 14,392 other Swedish and "international" accounts that have a "high extremism and/or Neo-Nazi orientation" and threaten violence. The Swedish Institute is most famous for running the...
  • @Mr. Hack
    @German_reader


    the demands you mention would probably have been taken up by more “normal” German nationalists as well (even if they wouldn’t have employed Hitler’s gangster-like methods),
     
    So, the lesson to be learned from Hitler's bad Sudetenland example is to be weary of any 'gangster-like methods' of any aggressive plays by one neighbor over lands held by another. I feel confident that had a real, legal referendum been held in Crimea, cessation would have won out - alas now, we'll never know for sure, for Putin took his plays right out of the Sudetenland playbook. BTW, Crimea and now Donbas are the first two chapters in Putin's own 'Triune' program. I'm just curious as to how far Karlin is on board with this program and if he's willing to advocate its spread to other parts of Ukraine?....He must be busy recalculating the recent French vote? :-)

    Replies: @melanf

    BTW, Crimea and now Donbas are the first two chapters in Putin’s own ‘Triune’ program

    Dobass – no. Putin is making great efforts to return Dobass in Ukraine. However likely his efforts will fail, and Kiev nationalists (with their trade blockade https://www.ft.com/content/276f3fd8-098c-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43) will make Donbass a part of Russia

  • I don't really have much to add beyond what I said on RT Crosstalk, and what Alexander Mercouris wrote here and here. The month long reprieve Trump had gained with his Syrian human sacrifice is over, and the Swamp creatures are back, baying for his blood with renewed zeal. What is most remarkable, and cannot...
  • Who would have thought back in 2014 that we’d all be here? Back around the time of the Sochi Olympic Games we already knew the western media loved to throw mud at Putin and Russia but did any of us think it would go this far? The coup in Kiev; the blind eye turned on genuine neo-Nazi private militias carrying out massacres; the failed attempt to bring Donbass to heel; the tank battles and artillery duels; Givi & Motorola and all the rest. Then came the Trump hysteria that has already surpassed what Tom Clancy and Dan Browne could together come up with after a month of sweat lodge sessions and magic mushroom journeys. Just stand back from the perspective of 2014 and look in wonder at it all.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes, melanf
    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji
    @Cagey Beast


    Who would have thought back in 2014 that we’d all be here?
     
    Right. I believe the Russian government made a huge mistake in February 2914: it showed weakness.

    Had it acted decisively, by, say, sending a division of paratroopers to Kiev, to restore the legitimate government and law and order, everything would've been fine. And there would've been only minimal and quickly fading amount stink from the west, similar to the aftermath of the the N.Ossetia crisis of 2008. Weakness invites aggression.

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @Anon

  • Buzzfeed: White Nationalist Richard Spencer's Gym Terminated His Membership After A Woman Called Him A Neo Nazi The entity in question, C. Christine Fair, is a Georgetown University associate professor of Peace and Conflict Studies. From its Tumblr (where else?): First, I want to note that this man is a supreme coward. When I approached...
  • @Jaakko Raipala
    @rw95

    Well, he is a lot more photogenic than the usual nationalist. I'm not a Spencer fan, by the way, I think he's likely an actual fascist and a Russian agent (and for obscure historical reasons from my obscure country I instinctively hate that combination), but at this point anyone who talks about this stuff and doesn't look like trash is an asset.

    The supposed unattractiveness of racists and nationalists has been a pretty big part of leftist propaganda, I remember when the multiculti promotion started here in the 1990s and they filled the TV with documentaries about neo-Nazis, nationalists and skinheads that looked like inbred, pot bellied career alcoholics. The left's embrace of gender dysfunction and other ugliness movements is a great opportunity to turn this around.

    Replies: @melanf, @rw95

    I’m not a Spencer fan, by the way, I think he’s likely …a Russian agent

    He kill for Putin?

  • * Reports just coming in that there has been a terrorist attack in Manchester. Manchester a pretty well-off city, by the standards of the English North-West, though the city's penchant for hedonism has given the city the lowest female life expectancy in England. 16% of the population are Muslims. Not as vibrant as Luton or...
  • @Daniel Chieh
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I would say that the degree of separation in the 40k universe is pretty significant such that the multi-kult is pretty ineffective in practice. While the elites are "cosmopolitan" to an extent beyond the evident court politics, the vast majority of the population probably are never exposed to the diversity of the Imperium beyond the occasional visits by Black Ships or tithe to the National Guard.

    But yes, its more or less a return to the past complaints about the aristocracy, where there's likely a cosmopolitan aristocratic core that's heavily divorced from local concerns. Much as the Russian court was speaking French, the Imperial aristocracy probably speaks High Gothic and may not even understand the language of the people they rule.

    Replies: @melanf

    Much as the Russian court was speaking French

    It is a myth. The aristocracy were mostly fluent in French, but the primary language of the aristocracy (despite the myths) was Russian (in particular letters were for the most part written in Russian –)

    • Replies: @ussr andy
    @melanf

    looks like he's way more comfortable writing in French though:
    http://new.rusarchives.ru/evants/exhibitions/pavel/108.shtml

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @melanf

  • @ussr andy
    @melanf

    looks like he's way more comfortable writing in French though:
    http://new.rusarchives.ru/evants/exhibitions/pavel/108.shtml

    Replies: @Cagey Beast, @melanf

    looks like he’s way more comfortable writing in French though:

    This historical person – it is possible (but Russian language he knew). However, the majority of letters of the highest aristocracy, wrote in Russian (Isabel de Madariaga, “Russia in the Age of Catherine the Great” ).
    You may recall the literature – among the highest aristocracy were brilliant writers and poets who wrote in Russian (For example, count A. K. Tolstoy http://artchallenge.me/painters/38/41.jpg)
    , but no French-speaking writers and poets (at least famous)

  • @Greasy William
    @Anatoly Karlin

    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?

    Replies: @melanf, @Andrei Martyanov

    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?

    Most Russians don’t think about it at all, since the issue for Russia is not relevant. But there is a prevailing opinion that the people of Central Asia/Islamic part of the Caucasus more stupid than the “European” white. But it’s not racist (it is not typical for Russia) , but the idea of the backwardness of culture in these regions (such ideas are freely discussed, and sometimes even “promoted” in movies). The Jews and Koreans in General opinion to the contrary are considered more intelligent.

    Also widespread ideas about the imperfection of women’s intelligence. A week ago at my University was among the students a fun discussion on a topic the hypothetical ban of higher education for women. Girls (approximately half of the group) argued that intelligence is not dependent on sex, and the guys claimed that there are no women among the outstanding scientists, so no need to spend money on education for stupid by nature women.

  • Father of Manchester bomber posted in 2013 pro-Nusra message on FB: “”My greetings to Al Nusra, the victorious over disbelief”
    https://twitter.com/HaraldDoornbos/status/867798158822170624

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @melanf

    If true, this would somewhat complicate the "His relatives reported him to authorities" line the media are pushing.
    Or maybe his father was angry that he'd declared loyalty to ISIS instead of al-Qaida? Sort of like people get into rows about their favorite football clubs.

    Replies: @Talha

  • @Talha
    @German_reader

    Hey GR,

    It may not complicate things too much. Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh. There are approved terrorists and unapproved terrorists. Gotta keep track of the details.

    And yes, UK security forces might have been OK if the son went off to fight for the approved team.

    Peace.

    Replies: @melanf

    Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh

    In 2013 Nusra and ISIS worked together.

    • Replies: @Talha
    @melanf

    Hey melanf,

    Yup - and then they didn't. They are now shooting at each other. That's what happens with extremist splinter groups, they tend to...splinter.

    Peace.

    Replies: @utu

  • There have been three significant political protests in Moscow in the past few months, and each in their own way - and in their relation to each other - say a lot about the state of Russia today. It's not that great for the Kremlin. But not for the reasons the Western media would have...
  • From what I hear (living outside of Russia), I’m getting the impression that the Khrushchevki protests and Navalny’s work are very much connected.

    Against the program of demolition of “Khrushchev” published many Pro-government journalists on the pages of Pro-government Newspapers and Magazines. For example https://www.vz.ru/society/2017/4/20/867157.html

    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji
    @melanf


    Against the program of demolition of “Khrushchev” published many Pro-government journalists
     
    Sure. It can be criticized, of course, nothing to it. I was talking about the protests and the general attitude towards government initiatives, as in: they are out to get us! somehow! But, again, I don't live there, it's just the impression I get from watching talk shows on youtube.

    Replies: @Pavel

  • So the other day Mark Zuckerberg, who is all but officially campaining for the Presidency in 2020, came out in favor of basic income: I do support basic income. Though who cares what I support. Two to three decades down the line, basic income will become all but inevitable if the oligarchs want mass consumer...
  • @Tulip
    @Daniel Chieh

    I think there are observable historical cycles, and we can make some helpful generalizations from those cycles to say what values put a people on top, what values put them on the bottom, and what values lead to their total destruction.

    As far as what moves the Chariot forward, and what mires it in the mud, it is a complex question. Certainly, autocracy didn't work so badly in Japan, Germany, Mainland China, or Singapore, but left Russia, Spain, and the Ottoman's behind the curve. It doesn't seem to have a great track record in Africa either.

    As far as democracy, I fear its fate rises and falls on the viability of conscript armies to revolutionize (and continue to compete) in warfare. So I am skeptical of democracy's future on the planet given the changes in warfare.

    Replies: @melanf

    Certainly, autocracy didn’t work so badly in Japan, Germany, Mainland China, or Singapore, but left Russia, Spain, and the Ottoman’s behind the curve.

    In Russia and the Ottoman Empire autocracy (if you take a whole historical period) worked just fine. These two countries have achieved a lot, a lot more than allow their resources

    • Replies: @German_reader
    @melanf


    In Russia and the Ottoman Empire autocracy (if you take a whole historical period) worked just fine. These two countries have achieved a lot, a lot more than allow their resources
     
    The Ottoman empire totally failed at meeting the challenges of the modern age though...it fell hopelessly behind Western powers and in the end was dismembered. That's not really a success story.
    Modernization was much more successful in Russia before WW1, but at some point economic and technological modernization would also have necessitated some change in the political system and participation of wider segments of society (maybe not necessarily democratic or liberal though...imperial Germany after all indicated that there might have been other paths to modernity that could work).

    Replies: @melanf

  • @German_reader
    @melanf


    In Russia and the Ottoman Empire autocracy (if you take a whole historical period) worked just fine. These two countries have achieved a lot, a lot more than allow their resources
     
    The Ottoman empire totally failed at meeting the challenges of the modern age though...it fell hopelessly behind Western powers and in the end was dismembered. That's not really a success story.
    Modernization was much more successful in Russia before WW1, but at some point economic and technological modernization would also have necessitated some change in the political system and participation of wider segments of society (maybe not necessarily democratic or liberal though...imperial Germany after all indicated that there might have been other paths to modernity that could work).

    Replies: @melanf

    The Ottoman empire totally failed at meeting the challenges of the modern age though…it fell hopelessly behind Western powers and in the end was dismembered. That’s not really a success story.

    The Ottoman Empire should be compared with other Muslim States. Against this background, the history of Turkey is a success story

    Modernization was much more successful in Russia before WW1, but at some point economic and technological modernization would also have necessitated some change in the political system and participation of wider segments of society

    For a correct evaluation should consider the entire period of “autocracy” (15-19 century). In this case, the autocracy in Russia worked perfectly. Russian monarchs led a very impoverished, deserted, extremely backward cultural and technical society (the cause was climatic, geographical and religious reasons) . However, due to the rigid centralized rule, Russia was able to defeat the enemy who had many times more resources and to assert his own existence.

    participation of wider segments of society

    It’s hard to say. In Russia in 1914 was the Parliament, but this Parliament, in conditions of war did nothing good but only evil

  • Trump fights the good fight for Tropical Hyperborea... erm, I mean for Pittsburgh, not Paris. Meanwhile, the kremlins see it fit to backstab him on this of all issues. Note that this is a couple of days after Macron publicly humiliated Putin in Paris, telling him that RT.com and Sputnik are propagandists to his face....
  • German_reader says:

    That’s a smart move by Putin. Concern over global warming and environmentalism aren’t necessarily left-wing or liberal issues, of course the question remains what exactly should be done, but pure denialism is a stupid idea for right-wingers or conservatives.
    Anyway, while I would probably have voted for Trump if I were American, I have to say this is another thing that makes him look like a major asshole (and the people who are cheering him on for this as well). Coupled with statements like “Selling all those weapons to Saudi-Arabia will be great for American jobs!” – at a time when Saudi-Arabia is causing what could turn out to be a major humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen – this would make it very easy to paint America First as selfish, immoral cynicism of the worst kind. If the Russians (or some other actor) ever decide to run a truly anti-American campaign, this would provide a lot of material (“Look at those immoral, materialist Americans…they don’t care if Bangladesh will be submerged because of global warming, as long as they can drive their gas-guzzling monster cars!”).

    • Agree: AP, melanf
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    @German_reader

    The ONLY way to meaningfully reduce carbon emissions is to reduce the human population, but the Left says that we can't do that because it's racist.

    Call us when you are serious about fighting climate change and not just ensnaring the US in shitty international agreements.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @neutral
    @German_reader


    Concern over global warming and environmentalism aren’t necessarily left-wing or liberal issues
     
    This is another good example of how the old ideas of what is left or right no longer are very meaningful. Draw a Venn diagram of who supports global warming, Muslims, mega corporations, mass third immigration and race denialism, the Venn diagram will basically be a one mega blob with very tiny fringes on the outside for the non overlapping parts. The people that believe in global warming are the globalists, the "global" part obviously being key to this.

    If my enemies (Soros, The Economist, snarky US liberal comedians, Merkel, etc) support global warming then massive alarm bells are ringing. Whatever the real scientific merits or not on global warming, there is zero chance I could ever support their global warming agenda.

    Replies: @German_reader, @ussr andy

    , @for-the-record
    @German_reader


    Anyway, while I would probably have voted for Trump if I were American, I have to say this is another thing that makes him look like a major asshole
     
    My 2 basic reasons for supporting Trump (although as an ex-citizen obviously I couldn't vote) were as follows:

    1. hoping but by no means convinced that he would carry through with his "pro-Russian" and non-interventionist pledges

    2. knowing that he would almost certainly alienate the rest of the world, thereby depriving the US of the leadership of the "Free World".

    At least he is on track for No. 2.

    Replies: @German_reader

    , @unpc downunder
    @German_reader

    That's the wonderful thing about political parties in the modern era, they make it impossible to make rational choices as a voter.

    I want to vote directly for the heads of government departments, starting with the immigration department, then the foreign policy department. That would be a meaningful way to vote. Not voting like a moron for BS political parties with their political happy meals.

    , @Thea
    @German_reader

    I don't believe any human endeavor can stop the atmospheric feedback loop. Even if warming is real and man made, there is likely not a thing that humanity is capable of doing to fix it. That would require a Herculean united effort and a lot of discomfort.

    If it is real, then that cake is already baked, the egg is cracked.

    , @anon
    @German_reader


    pure denialism is a stupid idea for right-wingers or conservatives.
     
    global warming is a con - that's why they changed the name to "climate change"

    the ClimateGate emails told the whole story but the media have never reported it honestly

    the sequence was
    1) measured temperatures rose for c. 15 years until around 1998 when it stopped
    2) the people in charge of providing the data believed it was just a temporary lull so they rigged the data for 15 years
    3) during those years millions of people were persuaded global warming was true and scores of thousands of people got well-paid jobs that were in some way entangled in the global warming hoax
    4) after 15 years of rigging the data one of the scientists involved leaked the truth

    so

    there was warming and then there wasn't warming which means it's not man-made (as CO2 emissions increased the whole time)

    so

    the science is not settled

    either

    1) it's man-made but in an unexplained way
    2) it's man made but the increased CO2 led to more greenery/plankton which absorbed it
    3) IT'S THE SUN AND ALWAYS WAS THE SUN
  • Grigoriev, Andrey & Lynn 2009 Studies of Socioeconomic and Ethnic Differences in Intelligence in the Former Soviet Union in the Early Twentieth Century Abstract: This is essentially a short history of psychometrics in the USSR/Russia. (1) The first measurement of Russian IQ was performed in 1909 by A.M. Schubert, who used the French Binet test...
  • @Mr. XYZ
    Honestly, it's a shame that free speech is more restricted in Russia and Europe than it is in the U.S.; indeed, people should be allowed to speak freely--even about extremely uncomfortable topics.

    Also, though, as a side note, I wonder what the genetic ceiling of the various Central Asian groups is in regards to their IQ. After all, I know that Kazakhstan's PISA results have significantly improved over the last decade to the point that Kazakhstan's PISA-adjusted IQ is something like 95. Even excluding the ethnic Slavs, my guess is that Kazakhstan's PISA-adjusted IQ would be no less than 90 (and possibly with some additional room to further increase).

    Considering that Kazakhs and Kyrgyz are very similar linguistically speaking (they were even listed together in the 1897 Imperial Russian census), I wonder if Kyrgyzstan's IQ ceiling would likewise in the 90 range (or between 85 and 95, if you want a more specific range).

    Indeed, any thoughts on this?

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @melanf

    Honestly, it’s a shame that free speech is more restricted in Russia …than it is in the U.S.; indeed, people should be allowed to speak freely

    About hereditary inequality of intelligence in Russia scientists can speak quite freely. Here Professor of Moscow State University lecture about hereditary inequality of different races
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4838cApI_I

    Video Link
    Warning: I am not a follower of this Professor is just an example of free speech on the topic of heredity

    • Replies: @Boris N
    @melanf

    Yet, he is speaking in private in some room and not openly lecturing students or TV audience.

    Replies: @melanf

  • @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. XYZ

    I agree that Kyrgyzstan's 75 PISA-equivalent IQ result is strangely low relative to what one might expect. Most aggregate estimates (Becker, Lynn, Rindermann) seem to peg Central Asians at the mid to high 80's, 2/3 S.D. lower than Russians at around 97.

    Central Asians are poorer than Russians (though Kazakhs are not), and may have suffered more from iodine deficiency until relatively recently, so that's not implausible.

    OTOH, Dagestan, a Turkic region of Russia, seems to have an average IQ in the high 80s.

    Replies: @melanf

    Dagestan, a Turkic region of Russia, seems to have an average IQ in the high 80s.

    In Dagestan Turkic peoples are a minority
    In Dagestan, the most numerous peoples speaking Northeast Caucasian languages

    • Replies: @Boris N
    @melanf

    Yes, the level of ignorance among the HBD people and their regular blunders are appalling. And AK is not some stupid American who is even not aware of the existence of Daghestan, his low-IQ kebab granddad came from there.

    Replies: @Anonymous

  • @BB753
    @AP

    Are Tatars similar autosomatically to Cossacks? Or are the latter more Slav than Tatars?

    Replies: @melanf, @AP

    Are Tatars similar autosomatically to Cossacks? Or are the latter more Slav than Tatars?

    Cossacks is estate in pre-revolutionary Russia which consisted of people of different nationalities. On pictures Tatars-nagabuchi which belonged to the estate of Cossacks.

    Tatars are a few different peoples, with different (genetically) origin. Compare
    Kazan Tatars:

    Tatars Nogais:

  • A couple of weeks ago, Ukraine passed an edict banning access to a host of Russian web services including VKontakte and Odnoklassniki (Russia's Facebook, and most popular social network in Ukraine, with 13 million users; Odnoklassniki is 4th, with 9 million users; for comparison, Facebook is 8th with 5.6 million users, though tellingly it is...
  • @Mr. Hack
    @Mao Cheng Ji


    They speak dialects that they identify as ‘Ukrainian’ – dialects of Malorossia, and, to a degree, of Southern Russia in general.

    They do NOT speak official ‘Ukrainian’. They don’t understand a whole bunch of words in that language. Russian, they understand it much better.
     

    I was kind to you above when I said that your opinion was 'flawed'. With this latest homespun salvo of yours. I'll just tell you like it really is - total, 100% BS! Your insinuation that those that speak some sort of Ukrainian dialect can more easily understand literary Russian better than literary Ukrainian is pure hogwash! Even young Galician immigrants speak perfect literary Ukrainian, and you'd be hard pressed to detect any regional variance, something that couldn't be said about their grandparents. If you really did some homework on the subject (instead of blurting out nonsensical ideas), you'd know that the vast majority of Ukrainians are bi-lingual (I don't know how much longer this situation will exist, as many younger Ukrainians are by-passing Russian for other European languages within their school curriculum).

    Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji, @Boris N

    I was kind to you above when I said that your opinion was ‘flawed’.

    I’m touched by your kindness.

    Your insinuation that those that speak some sort of Ukrainian dialect can more easily understand literary Russian better than literary Ukrainian is pure hogwash!

    What I said was that a majority of people on the territory of the former state of Ukraine are more comfortable with Russian than with the official language, based on Galician dialect.

    This is not particularly controversial, but you don’t need to trust me: just check out the Gallup study I linked above.

    And that’s all there is to it; I don’t see what else we could chat about here. Oh, wait: I hear your boss, Mr Stets, at the Ukrainian Ministry of Truth resigned recently. Could you comment on that?

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @AP
    @Mao Cheng Ji


    Ukraine are more comfortable with Russian than with the official language, based on Galician dialect.
     
    Official language is based on the speech of Poltava and created mostly by central and Eastern Ukrainian. Village-speak in central Ukraine resembles the standard language more than does the speech in Galician villages.

    Consuming Russian fairytales about Ukraine has not done well by you.

    This is not particularly controversia
     
    That you write nonsense is indeed not controversial.

    he Gallup study I linked above
     
    Gallup study claims 17% speak Ukrainian as a first language. The map on this article already contradicts this.

    The 7 western oblasts annexed in 1939, about 95% Ukrainian speaking, are themselves a little over 20% of the population. If Gallup was correct, nobody outside of those regions speaks Ukrainian. I think even you are not stupid enough to believe that. But I could be wrong.

    Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

  • Grigoriev, Andrey & Lynn 2009 Studies of Socioeconomic and Ethnic Differences in Intelligence in the Former Soviet Union in the Early Twentieth Century Abstract: This is essentially a short history of psychometrics in the USSR/Russia. (1) The first measurement of Russian IQ was performed in 1909 by A.M. Schubert, who used the French Binet test...
  • @Bliss
    So the IQ of these north Asian mongoloid groups above is among the lowest measured, more than a standard deviation below that of African-Americans.

    How do you reconcile that with your theory that living in cold climates results in high IQ?

    Also, has anyone measured the IQ of the mongoloid tribes that live in the Amazon rainforest? Why not?

    Replies: @melanf, @GrenadierGunther, @Santoculto

    So the IQ of these north Asian mongoloid groups above is among the lowest measured, more than a standard deviation below that of African-Americans.
    How do you reconcile that with your theory that living in cold climates results in high IQ?

    Do you seriously think that the testing of the hunters of the stone age, shows their genetically determined intelligence (and not cultural level)?

  • 2 things wrong here, Anatoly.

    Firstly, Tatars are not genetically Slavs(neither in terms of autosomal DNA, the most important aspect, or paternal/maternal haplogroups). Google “K15 genetic plot” in images or “Tatar PCA plot” to see just how far from Slavs they are. The Tatar/Russian difference is not solely a language one.

    Secondly, no reason to speculate on Yakut IQ when we have modern Yakut IQ(there have also been studies done on Manchurian Evenks by Chinese researchers that go against these old Soviet numbers). Look up Vladimir S. Shibaev Yakut IQ, I’m surprised you don’t know about this study. He studied Yakut children(and ethnic Russians) from Sakha Republic, urban Yakuts had an IQ of 100, urban ethnic Russians(in Yakutsk) had an IQ of 101, rural Yakuts had an IQ of 100, rural ethnic Russians had an IQ of 97. The Chinese study had Evenks at 96(and various other northern nomadic Chinese ethnic groups at 100), then of course there’s the multiple very high sample recent studies on Mongolians that show the same.

    Mongoloid(with the darker skinned, less sinodonty, diverged 15-20k ya Amerindians being an exception) IQ is rather stable from Siberia to Vietnam, with Han Chinese, Koreans, Japanese having a boost of around 5 from their extra civilizational selection. Central Asian and Indochina IQ can be explained by Middle-Eastern admixture in Central Asia(and high inbreeding rates) and Oceanian admixture in Indochina. I really don’t think these early 1900s more culturally biased tests the Soviets did are accurate. We can’t really get anything concrete from PISA either, Chita Oblast which does horribly is 90% ethnic Russian(descendants of Soviet era deportee criminals maybe?).

    • Agree: melanf
  • @Boris N
    @melanf

    Yet, he is speaking in private in some room and not openly lecturing students or TV audience.

    Replies: @melanf

    Yet, he is speaking in private in some room and not openly lecturing students or TV audience.

    This interview to the public (not shooting by hidden camera)

    • Replies: @Boris N
    @melanf

    I have had a different notion of the word "public". The only public here I see is he had been shot on camera and the video is in Youtube, though, with only ~70k views which is not much by today's Youtube standards. So it is not like he has expressed his opinion on many talk shows on TV which are popular today. Neither has he said anything specific like "Central Asians/North Caucasians have different brains than Russians, hence..." I'm sure if he said that really in public, to millions of people, it would be a scandal.

  • The National Bolshevik (NatsBol) meeting was at the Monument to the Heroes of the Revolution of 1905-1907, festooned with the black-red flags of movement, though the chiliastic chic of Limonov's monthly rant was somewhat checked by the Mickey D. golden arch and the skyscrapers of the Moscow financial district in the background. Eduard Limonov is...
  • About Limonov in 2004, even made a film – the plot focuses how a young Gopnik Limonov becomes a revolutionary in order to seduce a classmate-beauty in high school

    Trailer:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZQiF54beLc

    Video Link
    Interested in America can shoot a similar movie about Robert Spencer?

  • Currently traveling, posting this from my cell phone so discuss the UK general elections, the ROG inspired spat between Saudi Arabia and Qatar, or whatever. So Jeremy Corbyn has soared to a point where he's neck and neck with Theresa May after being 20 points behind. Reminder the Conservatives called this election to expand their...
  • @E
    St. Petersburg used to be a cold northern swamp, and one can still feel it in the climate when visiting (cold, damp, windy and wet), even though it's now almost entirely covered with stone and asphalt. I can see why the Varangians preferred Veliky Novgorod for their major trade hub between the Baltic and interior Russia - its climate is just so much nicer. St. Petersburg is a really weird example of a huge city that "shouldn't naturally be there" and exists mostly because of one man's strong will that it exist.

    It does have very harmonious-looking if monotonous architecture. However, the centre of Moscow has been redone recently and there are now sections of it that are as charming and pleasant to visit as any Western European historical tourist-attracting city you can think of. As for the outskirts of both cities, they look and feel pretty much the same as they were made by the same Soviet planners (personally, I'm a fan of those types of communities -- high density, lots of boulevards and nearby forested areas, good groceries & shops within walking distance, public transit links. Sure beats the North American suburbs and parking lots).

    Replies: @Carlo, @melanf

    St. Petersburg is a really weird example of a huge city that “shouldn’t naturally be there” and exists mostly because of one man’s strong will that it exist.

    The mouth of the Neva is the most convenient (in fact the only possible) place for a seaport linking the economic center of Russia with the world’s ocean trade. Before the advent of Railways, freight transport in the mainland were carried by the rivers. Tsar Peter understood this, and in 1704-1722 were built canal systems connecting the basin of the Neva and basins of the Volga. As a result, 70% of all International trade Russia went through Volga-Neva waterway in the 18th century.
    For example iron from the Urals was carried by the rivers to St. Petersburg to sell to the English merchants
    This Saint Petersburg absolutely typical of the city at the mouth of the river, such as London. Rouen, Amsterdam, Antwerp, etc.
    It’s amazing that it was built in the 18th, not the 12th century.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    Such a town *was* built in the 12th century but it was a *Swedish* town and fortress called Landskrona (not to be confused with other places called Landskrona). It was destroyed by Novgorod forces in 1301. Not much information remains about how well developed or populated that town was, though. Of course there were always Finnic tribals there ("neva" in Finnish means a type of swamp).

    The Neva mouth remained effectively no man's land for centuries after that because the Scandinavians were still superior on the sea and Novgorod could not have defended a coastal site against raids that a merchant town would have inevitably attracted but at the same time Novgorod was close and secure in the inland so it could deny the strategic site to Sweden. Sweden eventually did annex the site in 1617...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Stolbovo

    ...and built a fortress called Nyenskans (swedification of Nevanlinna, fortress-of-Neva) and a mostly ethnic Finnish city with Swedes and Germans as minorities formed around it over the next century. Tsar Peter did not take empty land at the Neva, he took a city (and had its inhabitants murdered or enslaved, something that agitators from Lenin to Hitler have later found very useful here).

    Replies: @melanf, @Pseudonymic Handle

    , @E
    @melanf

    "The mouth of the Neva is the most convenient (in fact the only possible) place for a seaport linking the economic center of Russia with the world’s ocean trade"

    Are you aware of just how WIDE major Russian rivers tend to be, though? I think it's no accident that Novgorod served in St. Petersburg's role for centuries, despite being inland. It was a nicer place to live (not only does the climate feel better, but St. Petersburg has a mosquito problem to this day), and it could still accept large ships.

    Plus St. Petersburg remains comparatively hard to defend, as WW2 proved.

    Replies: @melanf

  • @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    Such a town *was* built in the 12th century but it was a *Swedish* town and fortress called Landskrona (not to be confused with other places called Landskrona). It was destroyed by Novgorod forces in 1301. Not much information remains about how well developed or populated that town was, though. Of course there were always Finnic tribals there ("neva" in Finnish means a type of swamp).

    The Neva mouth remained effectively no man's land for centuries after that because the Scandinavians were still superior on the sea and Novgorod could not have defended a coastal site against raids that a merchant town would have inevitably attracted but at the same time Novgorod was close and secure in the inland so it could deny the strategic site to Sweden. Sweden eventually did annex the site in 1617...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Stolbovo

    ...and built a fortress called Nyenskans (swedification of Nevanlinna, fortress-of-Neva) and a mostly ethnic Finnish city with Swedes and Germans as minorities formed around it over the next century. Tsar Peter did not take empty land at the Neva, he took a city (and had its inhabitants murdered or enslaved, something that agitators from Lenin to Hitler have later found very useful here).

    Replies: @melanf, @Pseudonymic Handle

    Such a town *was* built in the 12th century but it was a *Swedish* town and fortress called Landskrona

    Fort (not tоwn) Landskrona was a failed attempt of the Swedes capture the mouth of the Neva. In 1300 the Swedes landed at the mouth of the Neva river and built a Fort, but in 1301, the Russian troops took the Fort by storm, and massacred the Swedes.

    The Neva mouth remained effectively no man’s land for centuries after that because the Scandinavians were still superior on the sea and Novgorod could not have defended a coastal site against raids

    Novgorod centuries owned these lands, but this lazy Republic could not build a fortress at the mouth of the Neva. Full bastards

    Sweden eventually did annex the site in 1617…

    and get rid of the indigenous population. In 1620, the Orthodox population (Russians, Karelians, etc.) accounted for 90% of the population. In 1650 the Orthodox population was 50% (other 50% Lutheran Finns resettled in these lands). In 1698, the Orthodox population was 15%, and 75% were the Lutherans – mostly Finns (Musayev “Political history of Ingermanland”). That is, the indigenous population fled from the Swedish yoke, and “cleansed” lands settled by Finns ( something that agitators from Lenin to Hitler have later found very useful here).

    Tsar Peter did not take empty land at the Neva, he took a city (and had its inhabitants murdered or enslaved

    This is an obvious exaggeration. Of course the war was fought in accordance with the “norms” of the time, but Finnish population on the future site of Petersburg was not subjected to deliberate extermination/expulsion. But due to the construction of St. Petersburg (and powerful influx of Russian population) Finns quickly became a minority in these lands.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    Some Orthodoxes fled after 1617, some converted, some remained. This is nothing unusual: all Finns are to some extent converted Orthodoxes; even in the west the first archaeological signs of Christianity are Orthodox and Finnish Christian vocabulary is Greek/Slavic, though Orthodoxy was likely very superficial and didn't cover much of the population in the westernmost parts.

    It's true that Swedes pressured Orthodoxes but Finns had a much simpler way available - thanks to Protestantism church services were in Finnish and there were Bibles and other religious writings in Finnish. People could go to the Russian church, listen to Church Slavic and never understand what their supposed religion was about or they could go listen to Finnish, learn more and pick up basic literacy. That's why the natural direction of conversion was always from Orthodoxy to Protestantism.

    The Finnish migrants were drawn from the east so it was mostly Protestant Karelians (whose ancestors had been Orthodox once). The ethnic make up of the region did not change much even if religion did.

    I don't know if Lenin ever used Swedish persecution of Orthodoxy in propaganda but if he did he was a pretty big hypocrite. I cannot imagine Hitler commenting on it (who the hell would he be speaking to?) and the Germans during Operation Barbarossa moved the remaining Finnic Orthodoxes on the south side of St Petersburg to a concentration camp in Estonia. The Finnish government made a deal to move them to Finland and some fought on our side, some refused. The USSR demanded them back at the end of the war and mostly deported them to far away locations so they barely exist these days.

    Tsar Peter did not destroy the Finnic nature of the rural areas (which actually largely remained Finnic up to the revolution) but he did wipe out the urban population that was in the way of his plans. He was generally less genocidal in southeast Finn rural areas as he wanted to annex them as productive land but he waged a campaign of extermination in western Finland which was to become a depopulated buffer against Sweden. In fact, the only person who ever brought west-Finn "colonists" to the Neva was Tsar Peter who had his forces capture a good fraction of the western population as slaves to build the city.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Boris N
    @melanf


    and get rid of the indigenous population. In 1620, the Orthodox population (Russians, Karelians, etc.) accounted for 90% of the population.
     
    I believe all them in toto fled to central Russia where they created a very strangely placed and unique diaspora of Orthodox Karelians near Tver (now mostly assimilated).

    This is an obvious exaggeration.
     
    You know how this works: THEY always murder and massacre US; WE always just peacefully annex and peacefully assimilate THEM. Many would point a finger at Russians for such a way of thinking when actually this is rather a Western way of thinking PARTICULARLY when it is directed towards Russia. You know, those Asiatic Scythian-Mongolian barbarous beasts always have wanted to conquer the world, and others did nothing but defended themselves.

    I think this is pointless to argue with them as you lost from the start for they had put you in a position of the accused and themselves to the accusers; you cannot win there.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

  • @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    Some Orthodoxes fled after 1617, some converted, some remained. This is nothing unusual: all Finns are to some extent converted Orthodoxes; even in the west the first archaeological signs of Christianity are Orthodox and Finnish Christian vocabulary is Greek/Slavic, though Orthodoxy was likely very superficial and didn't cover much of the population in the westernmost parts.

    It's true that Swedes pressured Orthodoxes but Finns had a much simpler way available - thanks to Protestantism church services were in Finnish and there were Bibles and other religious writings in Finnish. People could go to the Russian church, listen to Church Slavic and never understand what their supposed religion was about or they could go listen to Finnish, learn more and pick up basic literacy. That's why the natural direction of conversion was always from Orthodoxy to Protestantism.

    The Finnish migrants were drawn from the east so it was mostly Protestant Karelians (whose ancestors had been Orthodox once). The ethnic make up of the region did not change much even if religion did.

    I don't know if Lenin ever used Swedish persecution of Orthodoxy in propaganda but if he did he was a pretty big hypocrite. I cannot imagine Hitler commenting on it (who the hell would he be speaking to?) and the Germans during Operation Barbarossa moved the remaining Finnic Orthodoxes on the south side of St Petersburg to a concentration camp in Estonia. The Finnish government made a deal to move them to Finland and some fought on our side, some refused. The USSR demanded them back at the end of the war and mostly deported them to far away locations so they barely exist these days.

    Tsar Peter did not destroy the Finnic nature of the rural areas (which actually largely remained Finnic up to the revolution) but he did wipe out the urban population that was in the way of his plans. He was generally less genocidal in southeast Finn rural areas as he wanted to annex them as productive land but he waged a campaign of extermination in western Finland which was to become a depopulated buffer against Sweden. In fact, the only person who ever brought west-Finn "colonists" to the Neva was Tsar Peter who had his forces capture a good fraction of the western population as slaves to build the city.

    Replies: @melanf

    Some Orthodoxes fled after 1617, some converted, some remained. This is nothing unusual:

    The majority of the Orthodox population fled from Swedish reign.
    The Swedish policy of religious conversion, harsh taxation and competition for labour and taxpayers were the key issues in the political and social history of Ingria and Kexholm Province during the seventeenth century. …. The religious policy of the Swedish Government towards the Orthodox failed almost completely…Orthodox peasants simply preferred to desert to Russia rather than oppose these policies.” (Kujala, Antti Sweden’s Russian Lands, Ingria and Kexholm Province, 1617 – ca. 1670: The Interaction of the Crown with Its New Subjects )

    Here is a map of the settlement of “Russian” Karel(blue circled where Karelians moved from the territories occupied by the Swedes). Likely from these Karel, was the famous Alexander Suvorov.
    But in occupied by the Swedes lands lived not only Karelian – the land of the future of Petersburg before 1617, was dominated by the Russian population (which was also “purged” by the Swedes).

    Tsar Peter did not destroy the Finnic nature of the rural areas (which actually largely remained Finnic up to the revolution) but he did wipe out the urban population that was in the way of his plans.

    Оf course nonsense. For Peter, the Finns (who lived on the lands of St. Petersburg) was not an “obstacle”, but of ordinary citizens, a source of taxes and recruits. But because of a powerful influx of Russian colonists , the small “urban” Finns and Swedes quickly become a minority.
    In 1725 in St. Petersburg was approximately 40 thousand inhabitants, and in 1750 – 100 thousand people (pre-war population of Nien – 2 000 people)

    In fact, the only person who ever brought west-Finn “colonists” to the Neva was Tsar Peter

    This is an obvious false statement

    The crop failures related to the Little Ice Age as well as the tax increases and conscriptions ordered by King Gustav II Adolf and the ensuing regency regime, together with the attraction of the swidden lands in the east, on the other hand, drove thousands of Lutheran Finns in Viborg Karelia and Savo to migrate to Ingria and Kexholm Province. The Crown was neither able to prevent the Finnish peasants, farm hands and deserters from moving to the newly conquered eastern territories, freed from conscription, nor could it contain the migration of the Orthodox population from those same territories. After the war of 1656–1658, the population there consisted of Lutheran Finns everywhere, except in the Western parts of Ingria and the North-eastern fringe of Kexholm Province.” ( Kujala, Antti Sweden’s Russian Lands, Ingria and Kexholm Province, 1617 – ca. 1670: The Interaction of the Crown with Its New Subjects)
    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/fsv/jgo/2016/00000064/00000004/art00002

    The Finns appeared on the territory of Ingria mainly after 1617, when these lands according to a result of the Stolbova peace Treaty was ceded to Sweden. A number of fin. settlers existed here before, since the 14th century, after the conclusion of Shlisselburg (Orehovica) peace Treaty. The main tributary of the fin. colonists on the conquered lands falls in the middle of 17th century, when the Swedish government began to carry out forced conversion to Lutheranism of local residents . This caused a mass Exodus of the Orthodox (Izhora, Voda, Rus. and Karel.) population to the Russian land. The empty lands were quickly settled by Finns-immigrants
    http://www.etnosy.ru/node/354

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    I said: "In fact, the only person who ever brought west-Finn “colonists” to the Neva was Tsar Peter"

    You said: "Lutheran Finns in Viborg Karelia and Savo to migrate to "

    Exactly. These are not west-Finns. Those Protestant Karelians were ethnically the same as the Orthodox Karelians in the region and ethnically very different from us from western tribes. They both would have had a bigger genetic gap to a west-Finn like me than any other neighboring ethnic groups in Europe but they would have had next to no gap to each other. They understood each other, I would not have understood either of them very well. And so on. There was no difference except religion.

    Those Orthodox Karelians didn't move away their new Karelian neighbors, they moved because of Swedish policy towards non-Lutherans. If you read about historical atrocities against Finnic Orthodoxes, the culprits are generally Swedes or west-Finns. East-Finns don't have a legacy of tribal feud with Karelians because they are Karelians or close tribes.

    "Оf course nonsense. For Peter, the Finns (who lived on the lands of St. Petersburg) was not an “obstacle”, but of ordinary citizens, "

    An ordinary Russian citizen was a serf. A Tsar had no way of calming occupied land with a Finnish population except either extreme brutality (like Peter I) or a plausible promise that Finns would have an exception from serfdom (like Alexander I).

    Replies: @Boris N, @melanf

  • @E
    @melanf

    "The mouth of the Neva is the most convenient (in fact the only possible) place for a seaport linking the economic center of Russia with the world’s ocean trade"

    Are you aware of just how WIDE major Russian rivers tend to be, though? I think it's no accident that Novgorod served in St. Petersburg's role for centuries, despite being inland. It was a nicer place to live (not only does the climate feel better, but St. Petersburg has a mosquito problem to this day), and it could still accept large ships.

    Plus St. Petersburg remains comparatively hard to defend, as WW2 proved.

    Replies: @melanf

    Are you aware of just how WIDE major Russian rivers tend to be, though? I think it’s no accident that Novgorod served in St. Petersburg’s role for centuries, despite being inland.

    I know how wide major Russian rivers because I live in St. Petersburg. To Novgorod (trough shallow Volkhov http://s4.fotokto.ru/photo/full/245/2452078.jpg) could sails freely Viking drakars, but not ships of the 18th century. Even on the Neva sailing ships can to climb up the stream only to tow by rowing boats

    It was a nicer place to live (not only does the climate feel better

    ???? Why? To Novgorod from St. Petersburg – two hours by the local train. The climate almost identical

    but St. Petersburg has a mosquito problem to this day

    There is no such problem

  • @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    I said: "In fact, the only person who ever brought west-Finn “colonists” to the Neva was Tsar Peter"

    You said: "Lutheran Finns in Viborg Karelia and Savo to migrate to "

    Exactly. These are not west-Finns. Those Protestant Karelians were ethnically the same as the Orthodox Karelians in the region and ethnically very different from us from western tribes. They both would have had a bigger genetic gap to a west-Finn like me than any other neighboring ethnic groups in Europe but they would have had next to no gap to each other. They understood each other, I would not have understood either of them very well. And so on. There was no difference except religion.

    Those Orthodox Karelians didn't move away their new Karelian neighbors, they moved because of Swedish policy towards non-Lutherans. If you read about historical atrocities against Finnic Orthodoxes, the culprits are generally Swedes or west-Finns. East-Finns don't have a legacy of tribal feud with Karelians because they are Karelians or close tribes.

    "Оf course nonsense. For Peter, the Finns (who lived on the lands of St. Petersburg) was not an “obstacle”, but of ordinary citizens, "

    An ordinary Russian citizen was a serf. A Tsar had no way of calming occupied land with a Finnish population except either extreme brutality (like Peter I) or a plausible promise that Finns would have an exception from serfdom (like Alexander I).

    Replies: @Boris N, @melanf

    Exactly. These are not west-Finns. Those Protestant Karelians were ethnically the same as….. etc., etc.

    Summary,

    part 1: Before 1617 a lands of the Neva river basin belonged to Russia. In 1617 the Swedes came, the local Orthodox population was partially exterminated during the war, partially expelled thanks to the Swedish religious and economic policies. Instead of exterminated/expelled indigenous population settled Finns (Lutherans loyal to the Swedes).

    part 2: In 1703 the Russians came back. Finns were partially exterminated during the war, partially become a minority in the lands that were re-settled by Russians. Of course it was a manifestation of “extreme brutality” of the Russian.

    An ordinary Russian citizen was a serf.

    Really? Perhaps for this reason, in the 17th century, the population of the border lands fled en masse from Sweden to Russia.

    Tsar had no way of calming occupied land with a Finnish population except either extreme brutality (like Peter I)

    So Tsar Peter held in subjection “old Finland” (purely Finnish lands of Karelian isthmus) by using “extreme brutality “? Weird. It seemed to me that the Russian administration rules this land without any problems.

    There were actually some Swedish aristocrats who switched sides during the war against Peter I because they thought that by joining Russia they could get rid of these pesky limitations and just make peasants serfs.

    Who is it?

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    The peace of 1617 ended a war in which Sweden was meddling in the Russian succession crisis. There was no unified Russia to send an army to meet an invader and defense was stuff like improvisation by cities so Sweden marched straight past all that territory inhabited by Finnic Orthodoxes to the Russian cities. Eventually Sweden was handed a lot of territory in exchange for withdrawing from Novgorod and for dropping claims to the throne and almost none of this new territory had been occupied by Sweden.

    You could look at other wars where Sweden did run a brutal anti-Orthodox campaign, like the one that started during Ivan IV's reign and west-Finn tribes were recruited to run around Karelian lands killing Orthodox monks and burning down churches and monasteries, but this one? You are trying to paint Swedish war or occupation atrocities in areas that didn't even have war or occupation and that were handed to Sweden in a deal.

    Pretty soon Sweden reneged on its promise to let Orthodoxes continue to practice their faith and the migration to Russia started. That may be a nasty thing to do (and you could argue that Russia had a good casus belli there given that allowing Orthodoxy was a part of the peace treaty) but not being allowed a church is hardly comparable to real atrocities where people die or get enslaved.

    Similar things of course happened to the other direction but Russia didn't try to force convert Protestants. The most common reason to flee was getting away from slavery and in those cases Russia would try to stop you from fleeing. Still, several thousand of the Finns taken as slaves to St Petersburg did manage to escape and get back to our side, though that was still a fraction of the victims.

    Replies: @melanf

  • @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    The peace of 1617 ended a war in which Sweden was meddling in the Russian succession crisis. There was no unified Russia to send an army to meet an invader and defense was stuff like improvisation by cities so Sweden marched straight past all that territory inhabited by Finnic Orthodoxes to the Russian cities. Eventually Sweden was handed a lot of territory in exchange for withdrawing from Novgorod and for dropping claims to the throne and almost none of this new territory had been occupied by Sweden.

    You could look at other wars where Sweden did run a brutal anti-Orthodox campaign, like the one that started during Ivan IV's reign and west-Finn tribes were recruited to run around Karelian lands killing Orthodox monks and burning down churches and monasteries, but this one? You are trying to paint Swedish war or occupation atrocities in areas that didn't even have war or occupation and that were handed to Sweden in a deal.

    Pretty soon Sweden reneged on its promise to let Orthodoxes continue to practice their faith and the migration to Russia started. That may be a nasty thing to do (and you could argue that Russia had a good casus belli there given that allowing Orthodoxy was a part of the peace treaty) but not being allowed a church is hardly comparable to real atrocities where people die or get enslaved.

    Similar things of course happened to the other direction but Russia didn't try to force convert Protestants. The most common reason to flee was getting away from slavery and in those cases Russia would try to stop you from fleeing. Still, several thousand of the Finns taken as slaves to St Petersburg did manage to escape and get back to our side, though that was still a fraction of the victims.

    Replies: @melanf

    The peace of 1617 ended a war in which Sweden was meddling in the Russian succession crisis. …. You are trying to paint Swedish war or occupation atrocities in areas that didn’t even have war or occupation and that were handed to Sweden in a deal.

    It was (Swedish invasion 1611-1617) a full-scale war (in particular the famous Gustav-Adolf unsuccessfully besieged the city of Pskov: it was his first experience as a military chief). In this war the Orthodox Karelians fought fiercely against the Swedes. The Swedes captured Korela fortress after seven months of siege, when almost all defenders died. So areas of these lands have war and occupation

    but not being allowed a church is hardly comparable to real atrocities where people die or get enslaved

    During the Swedish invasion people died and became slaves

    The report of the commandant of the Sumy Fort
    «In the past, 1611, the year … the Swedish military people came ..they burnt the villages and massacred the people , and the other seized into slavery»

    From petitions of the Saami (directed to the Russian authorities)
    «…in the past, 1611, come the Swedes and many of the best people killed and captured and in captivity they died…»

    «In the grave of Ivan Rokačču (Karelian peasant, hero of the guerrilla war against the Swedes) archaeologists have discovered the skeleton of men, and also two women’s and two children’s skeleton with traces of violent death»

    And so on. In the Northern war, the Russian army in the same way dealt with the Finns.. The difference however is that after 1617 (Stolbovsky peace), the Russian population fled EN masse from the Swedish rule in Russia, but after 1722 (the Nystad peace) Finnish population lived peacefully under the Russian government (although the population had full opportunity to run in the Swedish Finland).

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @melanf

    You have a very silly idea of "full scale war" if a Swedish expedition starting with 1700 men, cavalry and infantry with no cannons, puts Russia into a "full scale war". These expeditions to capture specific forts were only possible because of Russia's period of anarchy and the forces involved were so tiny that the events were guaranteed to be localized. The vast majority of Orthodox peasants were completely unaffected and there was no mass migration - until *after* the war when Sweden set up a government in the land it gained and began conversion efforts.

    Comparing this to the Great Northern War with its hundreds of thousands of soldiers (and hundreds of thousands of casualties) and a military government reaching every rural town is just beyond silly.

    Let's remove the national source of blindness and just compare Russia to Russia. Roughly the same territory that is now Finland was occupied by Russia under Alexander I and under Peter I. There were some atrocities against civilians in 1808-1809 but it wasn't approved by Russian authorities, soldiers were punished and they remained few incidents. Hence, Alexander I is not remembered as a monster and the war doesn't have a strong folk memory of horror, though obviously no one wants to see it repeated.

    Under the military government set up by Peter I, in what's now western Finland tens of thousands were enslaved and sent to build St Petersburg or sold to Muslims (!) through Crimea, children were kidnapped never to be seen again, the Russians had a scorched earth policy to create buffer zones against Sweden and it took us generations to repopulate zones a hundred miles wide. When the peasants fled from their burned towns, Cossacks might stage bloodbaths where they murdered refugees for sport.

    The brutal tactics and letting soldiers rape, murder and loot without any restraint doesn't have any equivalent even among previous or later Russian wars against us. Even Stalin was clearly preferable to Peter I.

    Your idea that "old Finland" could have just moved to the Swedish side is completely mistaken. They were Karelians and would not have been welcome at all in large numbers, even if Protestant. You are projecting a modern "Finn" identity that didn't exist then into the past. That "Finn" identity is a result of the Russians creating the Grand Duchy of Finland in 1809 and the resulting national romanticist movement inventing common myths, designing a common language and so on.

    Assuming that Protestant Karelians back then could just move to Sweden is a bit like assuming that Macedonia would automatically accept a mass migration of Russians because it's Orthodox and Slavic. Actually even less accurate since Sweden was ruled by Swedes - ethnic Swedes refused to accept Karelian resettlement to their areas even from the territories lost in World War II and the only reason it was possible to settle Karelians 70 years ago was because Swedes were no longer in control of Finland. There were people that moved from "old Finland" to Sweden - Swedes and Germans who of course had an automatic option to be welcomed in Sweden, unlike Karelians.

    You don't seem to realize that the military government of what you call "old Finland" under Peter I was not even the same government that was holding western provinces and the treatment of westerners was brutal. The difference is probably partly because of military reasons (the west coast has an easy connection to Sweden and its hard for Russia to control) and partly because of cultural reasons (even Protestant Karelians still have a very Slavic influenced culture, not shared by the almost Germanized southwest proper-Finns and other westerners).

    Slavery has been illegal in Sweden for 700 years. An army in a siege ordering peasants to dig a ditch is not the same as capturing people as lifelong slaves and carrying them off to a different land to be sold as property.

    Replies: @melanf