RSS“Did you or any member of your household make an unofficial payment or gift when using [a public service] over the past 12 months?”
Bouquets of Flowers which are mandatory gift for school teachers on 1 September – are considered a gift?
The General opinion in Russia that petty corruption has decreased significantly.
It takes into account the difference in relation to the tests in different countries? As far as I know (from stories of expats) In Japan and South Korea, the tests are very important – in many cases people have to pass a test for IQ when trying to get a job. As a result, people specifically trained to pass these tests.
In Russia, the IQ tests are perceived as a funny curiosity – these tests are considered to be entertainment
Crimea has no equal in the concentration of natural and historical sites (palaces, parks, ancient cities, scarlet lakes, mountains, caves ) http://aquatek-filips.livejournal.com/1288395.html
From St. Petersburg it is interesting to visit to Ruskeala (the trip takes one day)
In 1 “The Syrian government will control a larger proportion of territory in a year’s time relative to today” you are formally right. The prediction made before the start of the offensive the forces of Assad against ISIS. After this offensive, Assad has lost part of the reconquered territories , but of the part reconquered territories kept under control. On other fronts the territory under the control of Damascus has increased too.
“Nicholas I carries more responsibility for modern Russia good and ill, than Stalin.”
And how Nicholas I determined the fate of Russia? It was an honest man of average abilities, who follow the course of events. Russia has not undergone a revolutionary transformation under the rule of Nicholas I
“In Russia, no one leaves their city to look for nature, except as a tourist”
Complete nonsense. Or is this a joke?
“He (Nicholas I) also created modern Eurasianism, ”
Definitely not
” He set up the Third Department, bureaucratically, the ancestor of the MVD and KGB.”
before Nicholas similar state organizations have existed for hundreds years in different countries
“He managed to get Britain and France to combine with Turkey and Austria against him by launching an attack to capture Constantinople via Bessarabia. (The ultimate aim was the conquest of India). This is the source of the continuing Russian reputation for political aggression.”
About India – propaganda nonsense.
As Nicholas has determined the fate of Russia in a greater degree than Stalin – I don’t understand
“People do not take cars for a spin along the Volga or into the desert just to look.”
Perhaps such travel in Russia is less common than in other countries, but in Russia there are definitely fans of such tourism.
Maybe a little popularity of such trips caused by low population density – to see the wild forest, no need to go far. Here’s
a lake in forest within the administrative boundaries of St. Petersburg (near my home). In most large cities of the world, such wild places are absent
“Outside of Moscow is there anywhere in Russia even when out of recession that is prosperous enough to provide lots of jobs for a lot of Central Asian migrants?”
In St. Petersburg right now a lot of migrant workers
“But given German territorial ambitions (in 1917)”
When von Ludendorff was de facto ruler of Germany? It was impossible
“Nobody would have ever given the Germans their own oblast”
Currently in Russia there are Azovsky German National District ( Deutscher Nationalkreis Asowo) near Omsk and German Ethnic District (Deutscher Nationalrajon) in Altai
Based on these data, 75% of new citizens come from Christian Nations, and 24% from Islamic Nations.
Most likely it is the children from mixed families, or wives/husbands of citizens of Russia
I noticed that if you suggest that the varangians of kievan rus were swedes, both ukrainians and russians get angry.
For Ukraine will not say, but in Russia the fact that varangians were vikings is quite generally accepted. This is not only written in the textbooks, but also it is common place historical novels, movies, etc.
True, as is also true of Ukrainians usually, but both Russian and Ukrainians exaggerate how early the Varangians were Slavicized, and then argue with each other about whether these dubiously Slavicized Vikings were Russians or Ukrainians.For example, there is Yaroslav the Wise (aka Jarisleif the Lame in the Norse sagas).His mother was the Scandinavian woman Ragnhild, his father Vladimir - himself probably fully Scandinavian but perhaps half-Scandinavian (Vladimir's father was fully Scandinavian, there is controversy about whether Vladimir's mother was Scandinavian Malfried or Slavic Malusha though the former is suggested to be more likely). Jarisleif, whose power base involved Scandinavian troops, married Ingegerd Olofsdotter, the daughter of Sweden's king. What language do you think they spoke to each other and to their children? Jarisleif has been featured on currencies and monuments in both Ukraine and Russia. It's like a Mayan in Mexico and an Afro-Cuban each claiming that Hernan Cortes was one of their own.Replies: @Felix Keverich
For Ukraine will not say, but in Russia the fact that varangians were vikings is quite generally accepted
Absolutely haram, Peter I ranks only slightly above Lenin in insanity and cumulative leftist damage to progeny.Replies: @melanf
Peter the Great – 10
Peter I ranks only slightly above Lenin in insanity and cumulative leftist
Peter I – leftist?
О_o!
He, among other things, introduced in Russia the death penalty for homosexuality. Also Peter was the most hard Islamophob among the Russian tsars.
He was a Westernizer and extreme anti-traditionalist. I'm not sure that makes him a leftist though. Would Ataturk be considered a leftist?Replies: @melanf
Peter I – leftist?
He was a Westernizer and extreme anti-traditionalist. I'm not sure that makes him a leftist though. Would Ataturk be considered a leftist?Replies: @melanf
Peter I – leftist?
Peter I – leftist?
He was a Westernizer and extreme anti-traditionalist
Based on these criteria, all great rulers-modernizers must be considered leftists. Starting with Cyrus the Younger and Herod the Great
Maybe. If by leftist one means opposed to tradition, then modernization usually has something to do with leftism, although this need not necessarily be the case. Bismarck's and Stolypin's reforms seem to have been traditionalist in nature. As for Peter and Ataturk - come to think of it, their efforts seem to have been more about the importation of foreign values and practices. Anti-traditionalist certainly with respect to their native cultures, but it doesn't seem to be particularly liberal.Replies: @whahae
Based on these criteria, all great rulers-modernizers must be considered leftists
Enter the Russian nationalist myth-believer, just as silly as a Ukrainian one.
Romanov dynasty in late Imperial Russia was ethnically German. This does not mean that Russia did not exist. Nicholas II, despite having like 1/16 of Russian blood in him, was still very much a Russian Tsar.
Normans were French-speaking. Unlike the Rurikids, the Vikings who ruled Normandy seemed to have mixed with the locals extensively. William the Conqueror may have been only 1/8 Viking. He's considered a Norman king of England, not an Englishman.Replies: @5371, @melanf
It’s also worth mentioning that the vikings established a number of European dynasties, including the House of Normandy, which later came to rule medeval England. This does not mean that William the Conqueror was a ‘Swede’.
Romanovs were originally a Russian dynasty, who over the centuries mixed with non-Russian aristocrats who adopted the Russian faith and language with marriage. Rurikids were Scandinavians, who kept a rather pure Scandinavian bloodline (among the rulers of Kiev, at least) almost into the 12th century. While there were a lot of Baltic Germans in the Russian military and bureaucracy, “German” Romanovs didn’t mostly depend on German military units and weren’t seizing the throne with German troops.
In respect of Yaroslav the Wise, this is a ridiculous argument. Yaroslav came to power based on the Novgorod army. One of the episodes of that era – in the year 1015, the inhabitants of Novgorod massacred Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav. Yaroslav in retaliation lured to a feast and massacred the Novgorod aristocracy. However, after that Yaroslav was forced to beg forgiveness from the residents of Novgorod.
As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant
So the pure Scandinavian Yaroslav, massacred Slavs who had dared to kill Yaroslav's Scandinavian allies, and later married a Swedish princes, and Yaroslav is a Russian Slav. Priceless.
In respect of Yaroslav the Wise, this is a ridiculous argument. Yaroslav came to power based on the Novgorod army. One of the episodes of that era – in the year 1015, the inhabitants of Novgorod massacred Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav. Yaroslav in retaliation lured to a feast and massacred the Novgorod aristocracy. However, after that Yaroslav was forced to beg forgiveness from the residents of Novgorod.
Well, one of these Scandinavians with a Slavic name, Vladimir, lived in Norway and gathered an army there with which he seized the Kievan throne. I guess he didn't consider himself a Scandinavian but a Slav, right? Speaking of which -
As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant
"Ancient Russia" - Russian svidomism at its best.
You have no idea what nannies and teachers the rulers of ancient Russia used.
So Vladimir didn't go into exile to Norway, didn't gather a group of Norse warriors, and didn't seize the Kievan thrown with those Norse warriors?
What you think you know about most of their marriages and the military units they depended on ain’t so.
So Vladimir didn’t go into exile to Norway, didn’t gather a group of Norse warriors, and didn’t seize the Kievan thrown with those Norse warriors?
Is this a joke? Vladimir was never in Norway. But four of the Norwegian king, was at different times in exile in “Ancient Russia”
I see that Russian svidomism has met reality and disapproves.
"So Vladimir didn’t go into exile to Norway, didn’t gather a group of Norse warriors, and didn’t seize the Kievan thrown with those Norse warriors?"
Is this a joke? Vladimir was never in Norway.
Since the state they exiled themselves to was run by fellow Scandinavians this is natural.
But four of the Norwegian king, was at different times in exile in “Ancient Russia”
Actually nowadays "Ancient France" is usually and more accurately referred to as the Frankish Kingdom, Frankia, etc. France begins later. Britannica, I suppose, represents modern consensus:
Ancient Russia it was, just as we speak of France, not Gaul, already from the sixth century.
Sure, but the actual princes of Kiev, the rulers of the state, maintained a pure Scandinavian bloodline up to Vissivald/Vsevolod, who ruled from 1078-1093. Vladimir, for example, had numerous wives, some of whom were not Scandinavians, but his successor after a period of warfare ended up being his son by Ragnhild of Polotsk.
If you consult a full genealogy of the Rurikid dynasty, you will see that marriages to Scandinavians early became a small minority of all those contracted.
Sure, but the actual princes of Kiev, the rulers of the state, maintained a pure Scandinavian bloodline up to Vissivald/Vsevolod, who ruled from 1078-1093. Vladimir, for example, had numerous wives, some of whom were not Scandinavians, but his successor after a period of warfare ended up being his son by Ragnhild of Polotsk.
It happened because all brothers of Yaroslav (Vladimir successor ) were killed, or died. The ethnic origin of the mother for the inheritance had absolutely nothing
Absolute coincidence that the rulers of Kiev had a basically pure Scandinavian bloodline for 200 years since Rurik came to those lands.The likely explanation is that having two Scandinavian parents probably made it easier for the products of such unions to deal with and gather Norse troops, which played a critical role in struggles for power, at least through the 11th century. This state of affairs demonstrates the ridiculousness of thinking of the state at that time as a Slavic (thus, Russian or Ukrainian) one though both Russian and Ukrainian svidomists claim that its rulers were Russians or Ukrainians. Helga (Olga) is the funniest example. Her husband (Ingvar/Igor) was killed and ambushed by Slavs from whom he was collecting tribute (furs, slaves, etc). She avenged her husband's death by completely slaughtering those Slavs, burning them all alive in their town. So the mass killer of Slavs becomes celebrated as a Slavic Queen. (is this not akin to Fomenko's ideas about Mongols being really "us"?)Replies: @ussr andy
It happened because all brothers of Yaroslav (Vladimir successor ) were killed, or died. The ethnic origin of the mother for the inheritance had absolutely nothing
Actually nowadays "Ancient France" is usually and more accurately referred to as the Frankish Kingdom, Frankia, etc. France begins later. Britannica, I suppose, represents modern consensus:
Ancient Russia it was, just as we speak of France, not Gaul, already from the sixth century.
Sure, but the actual princes of Kiev, the rulers of the state, maintained a pure Scandinavian bloodline up to Vissivald/Vsevolod, who ruled from 1078-1093. Vladimir, for example, had numerous wives, some of whom were not Scandinavians, but his successor after a period of warfare ended up being his son by Ragnhild of Polotsk.
If you consult a full genealogy of the Rurikid dynasty, you will see that marriages to Scandinavians early became a small minority of all those contracted.
By the way co-ruler Yaroslav was his elder brother Mstislav (from another mother). Yaroslav tried to get rid of Mstislav, but Mstislav’s Ossetian troops utterly defeated the Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav in 1024
The origin of Mstslav's mother is unclear. The Russian historian Vernadsky states that Mstislav had the same Scandinavian mother as Yaroslav, other sources claim his mother was Czech.
By the way co-ruler Yaroslav was his elder brother Mstislav (from another mother).
So the pure Scandinavian Yaroslav, massacred Slavs who had dared to kill Yaroslav's Scandinavian allies, and later married a Swedish princes, and Yaroslav is a Russian Slav. Priceless.
In respect of Yaroslav the Wise, this is a ridiculous argument. Yaroslav came to power based on the Novgorod army. One of the episodes of that era – in the year 1015, the inhabitants of Novgorod massacred Scandinavian mercenaries of Yaroslav. Yaroslav in retaliation lured to a feast and massacred the Novgorod aristocracy. However, after that Yaroslav was forced to beg forgiveness from the residents of Novgorod.
Well, one of these Scandinavians with a Slavic name, Vladimir, lived in Norway and gathered an army there with which he seized the Kievan throne. I guess he didn't consider himself a Scandinavian but a Slav, right? Speaking of which -
As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant
As for Scandinavian/Slav – obviously the princes who give for their children Slavic names, did not consider themselves Scandinavians. Their “biological” origin is irrelevant
Well, one of these Scandinavians with a Slavic name, Vladimir, lived in Norway and gathered an army there with which he seized the Kievan throne. I guess he didn’t consider himself a Scandinavian but a Slav, right? Speaking of which –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldemar
Valdemar I of Denmark or Waldemar the Great (1131–1182)
Valdemar II of Denmark or Waldemar the Victorious (1170–1241)…..All of these were Ancient Russians because their name, right?
Prince Igor (son of Rurik) had a son Svyatoslav (Slavic name)
Prince Svyatoslav’s sons:
Yaropolk (Slavic name);
Oleg (Scandinavian name);
Vladimir (a Slavic name)
The throne was inherited by Vladimir, who gave his daughters and sons the following names:
Vycheslav,
Svyatopolk,
Izyaslav,
Mstislav,
Jaroslav
Vsevolod,
Predslava,
Premyslova,
Mstislav,
Stanislav,
Sudislav,
Svyatoslav,
Boris,
Gleb,
Pozvizd,
Dobronega
The only Scandinavian name is Gleb. The other names are Slavonic (the name Boris is Turkish, but are borrowed from the Slavs, the Bulgarians). Please give an example of a dynasty of Scandinavian rulers, who in three generations give their children Slavic names. Or give an example of a Scandinavian king, which had 16 children, but only one son with Scandinavian name
For the rest of your thesis, detailed answer tomorrow evening, no time now
So we can expect a lengthy discourse of Russian svidomism from the same guy who didn't even know that Vladimir spent time in Norway, where he gathered his Norse troops to seize the throne.Replies: @melanf
For the rest of your thesis, detailed answer tomorrow evening, no time now
Absolute coincidence that the rulers of Kiev had a basically pure Scandinavian bloodline for 200 years since Rurik came to those lands.
The mother of Vladimir – slave Malusha. Brother of Malusha – Dobrynya ( Slavic name).
“Pure Scandinavian bloodline” Lol
Absolute coincidence that the pure Scandinavian rulers of “Ancient Russia” had a purely Slavic name for 200 years since Svyatoslav (grandson of Rurik).
So we can expect a lengthy discourse of Russian svidomism from the same guy who didn't even know that Vladimir spent time in Norway, where he gathered his Norse troops to seize the throne.Replies: @melanf
For the rest of your thesis, detailed answer tomorrow evening, no time now
I see that Russian svidomism has met reality and disapproves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great
So we can expect a lengthy discourse of Russian svidomism from the same guy who didn’t even know that Vladimir spent time in Norway, where he gathered his Norse troops to seize the throne.
Dear friend! Especially for you:
“Vladimir fled to Scandinavia… But in the Scandinavian sagas no mention of the stay of Vladimir in Sweden or Norway (Скандинавские саги ни словом не упоминают о пребывании Вальдамара Старого в Швеции или Норвегии)… Vladimir overseas was a short time. In 977 or 978 early on, he returned to Novgorod with the Varangian guard .”
Karpov, A. Y., “St. Vladimir”
The only source telling us about these events – the Primary chronicle.
“When Vladimir in Novgorod heard that Yaropolk killed Oleg, then got scared and fled across the sea. And Yaropolk put his Posadnik in Novgorod and owned one Russian land… Vladimir returned to Novgorod with the Varangians and …began to rule in Novgorod.”
(“Когда Владимир в Новгороде услышал, что Ярополк убил Олега, то испугался и бежал за море. А Ярополк посадил своих посадников в Новгороде и владел один Русскою землею… Владимир вернулся в Новгород с варягами и …стал править в Новгороде.”)
As you can see about Norway not a single word. Vladimir was almost certainly in Sweden (with which the Ancient Rus was connected most closely, and which was closer).
Dear AP! For the benefit of your crusade against “Russian svidomism “, use scientific work, not Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a cesspool, where any freak can Express nonsense
As a man, who knows. But "his" descendants are genetically linked and the origin is in eastern Sweden:
Public service reminder that Rurik himself probably never existed.
So Vladimir's son Yaroslav seizing the throne with a core of Norse troops, largely depending on Norse troops throughout his reign (see Yakun), and being married to the daughter of Sweden's king, wasn't serious links?Replies: @5371
So the period during which it had any serious links with Scandinavia lasted for considerably less than a hundred years, till Vladimir’s return to Kiev in 978 or so.
Actually, it would be incorrect to admit that relations were particularly close even before 978. Yaroslav, like his predecessors, used sometimes Scandinavian, sometimes Polish or Polovtsian exiled potentates with their followers as part of his retinue.
I’m afraid talk of “Finno-Ugrian” haplogroups is pseudoscience.
Sure, but he used Scandinavian troops most of all. In is struggle with Sviatopolk (who was aided by Poles) he was allied with Eimund and his Varangians, and in the struggle against Mstslav his principal ally was Jakun, the bother of Yaroslav's Swedish wife. Yaroslav's Scandinavian connection was much closer than that to other lands.
Actually, it would be incorrect to admit that relations were particularly close even before 978. Yaroslav, like his predecessors, used sometimes Scandinavian, sometimes Polish or Polovtsian exiled potentates with their followers as part of his retinue.
So you don't think that genetic tests showing that various members of Rurikid family branches being related to each other, with an origin in eastern Sweden, aren't science?
I’m afraid talk of “Finno-Ugrian” haplogroups is pseudoscience.
If Muslims take over Europe, expect to see Hitler rehabilitated; he’s quite popular with them. Given today’s level of elite Russophobia, if it weren’t for Hitler’s antipathy towards Jews, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him given more favorable treatment: “What do you call killing 27 million Russians between 1941 and 1945? A good start!” [sarc]
Do you have a better term for grandiose historical ideas that are believed by people belonging to a certain nation but not widely shared outside that country’s borders? Just because many Russians take their svidomist ideas for granted, and some Russian scholars have even constructed elaborate defenses of their svidomism (ideas, naturally, not widely held outside Russia itself), does not make those ideas true.
Svidomist are obsessed with a certain idea, and that they ignore the facts. Explore a vivid example
rulers of Kiev had a basically pure Scandinavian bloodline for 200 years since Rurik came ….Other than Russian svidomists, scholars consider “Malusha” (e mother of Prince Vladimir) to be the Scandinavian Malfried.
Slave girl Malusha (not Scandinavian name), sister of Dobrinya (not Scandinavian name), her father Malk of lubech (not Scandinavian name again). But she pure- Scandinavian- bloodline because…because Russian princes in accordance with the АР idea should be pure- Scandinavian- bloodline.
However there is a version that Malusha – Malfred!
“On this Malfred (mentioned in the chronicle for the year 1000) was built a lot of guesswork. Some researchers saw it as one of the wives of Vladimir the Saint, while others identified her with the mother of Vladimir – Malusha. From the point of view of the principles of naming, it is more likely that the first Malfred was the mother of Vladimir Svyatoslavich.”
But alas:
“her name is etymologically was not actually Scandinavian.
In most of Scandinavia, the first known possessor of this name was Queen Mal(m)Frid, daughter of Mstislav the Great (and wife of Sigurd the Crusader).
Mention of other Malfrid relate only to the significantly later time, to XIII-XIVвв.
Most probably at the origin of this name was German and originally had the form of Amalfrida. …. In the case of Mal(m)Frid we are dealing with a very interesting example of indirect penetration of the German name on Scandinavian soil — a name that comes to Scandinavia via Russia. The first owner name Malfred in Russia didn’t have to be German. It could happen from any place, where it was strongly influenced by German traditions.”
Litvin, Uspensky “Names of the Russian princes in X-XVI centuries”. page 247-249
There are svidomist who believe that Rurik – Slav. And there are svidomist who believe that Dobrynya – pure-bloodline-Scandinavian. In both cases, the Wrapper is different, but the essence is the same.
I have no doubt that you can find Russian (and Ukrainian) svidomist scholars who insist that Malfried was a Slav. Unfortunately, as in the case of Ukrainian svidomist theories, your ideas and theirs aren't really believed much outside your country.Replies: @melanf
Litvin, Uspensky “Names of the Russian princes in X-XVI centuries”. page 247-249
Why on earth Stalin gets 3? The Satan should’ve gotten – 0
Industrialization and victory in WWII greatly outweigh his sins
I have no doubt that you can find Russian (and Ukrainian) svidomist scholars who insist that Malfried was a Slav. Unfortunately, as in the case of Ukrainian svidomist theories, your ideas and theirs aren't really believed much outside your country.Replies: @melanf
Litvin, Uspensky “Names of the Russian princes in X-XVI centuries”. page 247-249
“Slave girl Malusha (not Scandinavian name), sister of Dobrinya (not Scandinavian name), her father Malk of lubech (not Scandinavian name)”
Although not much is known about her the consensus seems to be that Malfried was the daughter of a Scandinavian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malusha
Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?
Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.
Shakhmatov version does not have the popularity among historians . Using your method ( find the “right” version, no matter how marginal, and accept it as a proven fact) it’s easy to find other explanations
“The most famous East Slavic pre-Christian name is the name of the drevlyan Prince Mal….. The female variant of male name of Mal
is the name Malusha known as the name of the housekeeper Princess Olga: “Vladimir was the son of the housekeeper Malusha”. And as the father of Malusha was Malk, Malusha derived from the name of the father…. Name qualification Malk of Lyubech can attest to the fact that the father was from a Slavic tribe lubeca, or from Liubech or Lübeck.
http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”
I have no doubt that you can find Russian (and Ukrainian) svidomist scholars who insist that Malfried was a Slav. Unfortunately, as in the case of Ukrainian svidomist theories, your ideas and theirs aren’t really believed much outside your country.
So show us the article of Western scholars (not Wikipedia!!!), where it is alleged that Vladimir and Yaroslav were purely Scandinavian rulers with pure Scandinavian bloodline, and Malusha Dobrynya was the Scandinavians and so on. For some reason (the machinations of Russian svidomists?) Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.
Also explain why “Scandinavian rulers” many generations had Slavic names, Slavic titles (князь, боярин), worshiped Slavic gods? Western scientists explain this fact by the assimilation of the Rurik descendants . But you have another explanation?
The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.
Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?
If you find another non-Russian source, provide it please.
Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.
The problem with using Russian sources on this matter is that they are open to svidomism. One could, for example, use a hundreds-pages book by Hrushevsky, full of footnotes and evidence, to show that the Rus were Slavs (and Ukrainians). So what?
http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”
Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne. Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts. When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles. He married a Swedish princess and his Swedish brother-in-law was his main ally in the war against his brother Mstislav. If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.Replies: @5371, @melanf, @melanf
Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.
The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.
Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?
If you find another non-Russian source, provide it please.
Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.
The problem with using Russian sources on this matter is that they are open to svidomism. One could, for example, use a hundreds-pages book by Hrushevsky, full of footnotes and evidence, to show that the Rus were Slavs (and Ukrainians). So what?
http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”
Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne. Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts. When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles. He married a Swedish princess and his Swedish brother-in-law was his main ally in the war against his brother Mstislav. If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.Replies: @5371, @melanf, @melanf
Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.
The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.
That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.
We were discussing Malfrid, remember?
That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian language
The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.
Explain please, how a slave whose name was not Scandinavian, brother which is called non-Scandinavian name, and whose father has not a Scandinavian name , can be considered the daughter of a Scandinavian?
If you find another non-Russian source, provide it please.
Only no need to embarrass this discussion by referencing Wikipedia. Wikipedia is garbage.
The problem with using Russian sources on this matter is that they are open to svidomism. One could, for example, use a hundreds-pages book by Hrushevsky, full of footnotes and evidence, to show that the Rus were Slavs (and Ukrainians). So what?
http://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/lichnye-imena-povesti-vremennyh-let-kak-otrazhenie-kartiny-mira-srednevekovogo-cheloveka#ixzz4cmoNhaOn”
Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne. Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts. When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles. He married a Swedish princess and his Swedish brother-in-law was his main ally in the war against his brother Mstislav. If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.Replies: @5371, @melanf, @melanf
Western scientists only talk about the Scandinavian origin of the Russian princes after Igor.
The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version.
That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.
As for the names of the rulers:
1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.
The numerous Olegs, Rjuriks and Glebs among Russian Princes itself tell us that Slavic liked Scandinavians names. For example Rurik Rostislavich Grand Prince of Kiev in XIII century, Oleg Ivanovich Prince of Ryazan XIV century. In such a case, based on your logic, we should assume that all holders of Scandinavian names are Slavs?
You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example.
Jarisleif is not Scandinavian name it is a Slavic name, which was written by Scandinavians. Similarly in Russian chronicles the Scandinavian name Helge turned to Oleg, Hakon in the Jakun, etc.
In the absence of other non-Russian sources, I’ll have to use wikipedia.
In Russian, such “methods” of analysis famous as folk-history.
Western sources note that Vladimir moved to Scandinavia (exact location, Sweden or Norway, not specified but his troops seemed to have been from Norway) and used Norse troops to seize the throne.
Yaroslav was the son of Vladimir and a woman (Ragnhild) whose origins were undisputably Scandinavian. His core forces consisted of Scandinavians in his various conflicts.
4 Norwegian King (Olav Trjuggvason, Saint Olav, Magnus Olavsson, Harald Sigurdarson) were in exile in Russia, and regained the throne with the support of Russian Princes. These Norwegian Kings by your logic the Slavs?
The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?
When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles.
And then he begged citizens of Novgorod for forgiveness.
If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.
Yaroslav’s sons names:
Vladimir
Izyaslav
Svyatoslav
Vsevolod
Vyacheslav
Igor
Yaroslav undoubtedly was a Slav (though Scandinavian origin). He, among others, public affairs, amounted to a compendium of laws. Guess what language?
We were discussing Malfrid, remember? Not the other ones.
"The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version."That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.
The logical conclusion is that whether the name is Slavic or Scandinavian does not determine ethnicity, because Slavs could have Scandinavian names and Scandinavian could have Slavic ones.
As for the names of the rulers:
1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.The numerous Olegs, Rjuriks and Glebs among Russian Princes itself tell us that Slavic liked Scandinavians names. For example Rurik Rostislavich Grand Prince of Kiev in XIII century, Oleg Ivanovich Prince of Ryazan XIV century. In such a case, based on your logic, we should assume that all holders of Scandinavian names are Slavs?
Now review what I wrote. When Yaroslav was with his own, Scandinavian people, he went by Jarisleif (see the Sagas). Likewise with Hakon, Helga, Ingvar (Igor), etc.
You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example.Jarisleif is not Scandinavian name it is a Slavic name, which was written by Scandinavians. Similarly in Russian chronicles the Scandinavian name Helge turned to Oleg, Hakon in the Jakun, etc.
Since the state they were exiled to (Rus) was a Scandinavian state, why would this make them Slavs? This fact further supports the Scandinavian nature of Rus. Scandinavians felt at home going into exile there. Just as Rus leaders sometimes felt at home going into exile in Scandinavia. And I love how in your Russian svidomism you refer to this state as Russian.
Norwegian King (Olav Trjuggvason, Saint Olav, Magnus Olavsson, Harald Sigurdarson) were in exile in Russia, and regained the throne with the support of Russian Princes. These Norwegian Kings by your logic the Slavs?
While Cnut did use some Polish troops he did not depend on Polish troops nearly as much as did Vladimir and Yaroslav on Norse troops.
The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?
That's nice. He had to rule over them, after all.
When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles.And then he begged citizens of Novgorod for forgiveness.
We already discussed names - Scandinavians liked Slavic names and Slavs liked Scandinavian ones. To review, Yaroslav was 100% Scandinavian (likely - but possibly "only" 75% Scandinavian). In various phases of his career he relied on Norse troops in his wars - most of his closest allies were fellow-Scandinavians. He provided a home for Norse exiles. When Slavs rebelled against Yaroslav's Scandinavians, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavs (but apologized to the survivors). He married a Swedish princess. But strong Russian Svidomite claims Yaroslav was a Slav, and a Russian too :-)
If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.Yaroslav’s sons names:
Vladimir
Izyaslav
Svyatoslav
Vsevolod
Vyacheslav
IgorYaroslav undoubtedly was a Slav (though Scandinavian origin)
No originals of Pravda Yaroslava exist - the Ruska Pravda, was completed two generations later, the oldest copy is from 1282. I wouldn't doubt if the law were written in Slavic, given that the population whom the Scandinavians ruled was Slavic. But because the rulers were Scandinavians, the law itself was very Norse in type. It replaced vengeance killing with the collection of weregild, brought about Scandinavian-type jury trials, etc. If Yaroslav was a Slav, why were his laws Norse?Replies: @Guy, @melanf
He, among others, public affairs, amounted to a compendium of laws. Guess what language?
A story about “Stalin school for saboteurs ” complete trash. But svidomist killers could be hired by the secret services of Russia (combine the elimination of the traitor with subtle trolling – a great idea). The killers in this case, certainly didn’t know who hires
or who end up stealing far too much for their station, such as … former Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov.
Serdyukov very much reduced corruption in the Army (and greatly raised the quality of army). While Serdyukov has aroused very strong hatred of the military (which was forced to make a fare work instead of stealing and drinking vodka). This was the reason for dismissal Serdyukov (after he reformed the army), rather than his own corruptive actions
What I hear here is the exact type of formula set by mafia type groupings throughout the world. In this instance, the Godfather, Putin, sets the parameters of what's permissible to steal, and what is not. This is not the type of governance that leads to anything good, anything sane. Defending this type of governance is pure nonsense of the highest order, and points to the utter lack of moral conviction by anyone who holds dear to it.
' the Russian ruling clique has a common interest in regulating corruption. Those who overstep the bounds of what is permissible, e.g. by practicing “compador” corruption, such as United Russia MP Vladimir Pekhtin with his Florida waterfront condo; or who end up stealing far too much for their station, such as the former head of Russian Railways Vladimir Yakunin and former Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, are quietly dismissed.
What I hear here is the exact type of formula set by mafia type groupings throughout the world.
What your hear here is the exact type of formula set by all states throughout the world. Exception? May be ISIS
We were discussing Malfrid, remember? Not the other ones.
"The problem is that the more accepted theory is that the Scandinavian name came first and the Slavs made up a Slavic version."That is, the names Jaroslav, Yaropolk, Svyatoslav, etc. are derived from Scandinavian languages? Cool hypothesis. Please give examples of the use of these names by Scandinavians.
The logical conclusion is that whether the name is Slavic or Scandinavian does not determine ethnicity, because Slavs could have Scandinavian names and Scandinavian could have Slavic ones.
As for the names of the rulers:
1. The numerous Waldemars across Scandinavia itself tell us that Scandinavians liked Slavic names.The numerous Olegs, Rjuriks and Glebs among Russian Princes itself tell us that Slavic liked Scandinavians names. For example Rurik Rostislavich Grand Prince of Kiev in XIII century, Oleg Ivanovich Prince of Ryazan XIV century. In such a case, based on your logic, we should assume that all holders of Scandinavian names are Slavs?
Now review what I wrote. When Yaroslav was with his own, Scandinavian people, he went by Jarisleif (see the Sagas). Likewise with Hakon, Helga, Ingvar (Igor), etc.
You do realize that these people also used Scandinavian names when interacting with their own people. Yarosalv was Jarisleif, for example.Jarisleif is not Scandinavian name it is a Slavic name, which was written by Scandinavians. Similarly in Russian chronicles the Scandinavian name Helge turned to Oleg, Hakon in the Jakun, etc.
Since the state they were exiled to (Rus) was a Scandinavian state, why would this make them Slavs? This fact further supports the Scandinavian nature of Rus. Scandinavians felt at home going into exile there. Just as Rus leaders sometimes felt at home going into exile in Scandinavia. And I love how in your Russian svidomism you refer to this state as Russian.
Norwegian King (Olav Trjuggvason, Saint Olav, Magnus Olavsson, Harald Sigurdarson) were in exile in Russia, and regained the throne with the support of Russian Princes. These Norwegian Kings by your logic the Slavs?
While Cnut did use some Polish troops he did not depend on Polish troops nearly as much as did Vladimir and Yaroslav on Norse troops.
The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?
That's nice. He had to rule over them, after all.
When Slavs in Novogord killed his Norse allies because they had been abusing Slavs, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavic nobles.And then he begged citizens of Novgorod for forgiveness.
We already discussed names - Scandinavians liked Slavic names and Slavs liked Scandinavian ones. To review, Yaroslav was 100% Scandinavian (likely - but possibly "only" 75% Scandinavian). In various phases of his career he relied on Norse troops in his wars - most of his closest allies were fellow-Scandinavians. He provided a home for Norse exiles. When Slavs rebelled against Yaroslav's Scandinavians, Yaroslav slaughtered the Slavs (but apologized to the survivors). He married a Swedish princess. But strong Russian Svidomite claims Yaroslav was a Slav, and a Russian too :-)
If you think that Yaroslav was a Slav, the Svidomism is strong in you, indeed.Yaroslav’s sons names:
Vladimir
Izyaslav
Svyatoslav
Vsevolod
Vyacheslav
IgorYaroslav undoubtedly was a Slav (though Scandinavian origin)
No originals of Pravda Yaroslava exist - the Ruska Pravda, was completed two generations later, the oldest copy is from 1282. I wouldn't doubt if the law were written in Slavic, given that the population whom the Scandinavians ruled was Slavic. But because the rulers were Scandinavians, the law itself was very Norse in type. It replaced vengeance killing with the collection of weregild, brought about Scandinavian-type jury trials, etc. If Yaroslav was a Slav, why were his laws Norse?Replies: @Guy, @melanf
He, among others, public affairs, amounted to a compendium of laws. Guess what language?
The greatest Scandinavian King Cnut the Great was the son of the Danish King, and daughter of a Slavic prince. Against enemies (mostly other Scandinavians) he used Slavic warriors. Cnut the Great by your logic – Slavs?
While Cnut did use some Polish troops he did not depend on Polish troops nearly as much as did Vladimir and Yaroslav on Norse troops.
Nonsense
Primary chronicles :
« Yaroslav collected one thousand Varangians and forty thousand other soldiers, and marched against Svyatopolk. When Svyatopolk learned that Yaroslav was on his way, he prepared an innumerable army of Russes and Pechenegs and marched out toward Lyubech128 on one side of the Dnieper, while Yaroslav was on the opposite bank. Brothers stood over against each other on both banks on the Dnieper, but neither party dared attack. They remained thus face to face for three months. Then Svyatopolk’s general rode out along the shore and scoffed at the men of Novgorod, shouting, “Why did you come hither with this crooked-shanks, you carpenters?129 We shall put you to work on our houses.” Vhen the men of Novgorod heard this taunt, they declared to Yaroslav, “Tomorrow we will cross over to them, and whoever will not go with us we will kill.” Now it was already beginning to freeze. Svyatopolk was stationed between two lakes, and caroused with his fellows the whole night through. Yaroslav on the morrow marshaled his troops, and crossed over toward dawn. His forces disembarked on the shore, and pushed the boats out from the bank. The two armies advanced to the attack, and met upon the field. The carnage was terrible. Because of the lake, the Pechenegs could bring no aid, and Yaroslav’s troops drove Svyatopolk with his followers toward it. When the latter went out upon the ice, it broke under them, and Yaroslav began to win the upper hand. Svyatopolk then fled among the Lyakhs, while Yaroslav established himself in Kiev upon the throne of his father and his grandfather.»
Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav. The outcome of the war decided by the Novgorod army, not the Scandinavians. The participation of Scandinavians in the decisive battle is not mentioned at all
He (Yaroslav) had to rule over them (men of Novgorod), after all.
Really? It is rather the men of Novgorod rule
«Then Yaroslav fled with four men to Novgorod, and Boleslav entered Kiev in company with Svyatopolk. When Yaroslav arrived at Novgorod in his flight, he planned to escape overseas, but the Posadnik (mayor) Constantine, son of Dobrynya, together with the men of Novgorod, destroyed his boat, protesting that they wished to fight once more against Boleslav and Svyatopolk. They set out to gather funds ….»
Pravda Yaroslava exist – the Ruska Pravda, …w itself was very Norse in type. It replaced vengeance killing with the collection of weregild, brought about Scandinavian-type jury trials, etc. If Yaroslav was a Slav, why were his laws Norse?
Nonsense
Collection of «weregild», jury trials and so on was a common features of the barbaric laws (such as Salic law) reflecting the views of early medieval tribes about justice. Of course Pravda Yaroslava is a fully Slavic laws, as a write Slavic language, and used Slavic terms. In this law there is Absolutely no privilege for Scandinavians (in contrast to the Salic law which established special rights of the Germans).
But strong Russian Svidomite claims Yaroslav was a Slav, and a Russian too
Yaroslav was undoubtedly a Slav. Of course the Scandinavians sometimes had Slavic names, and the Slavs had sometimes Scandinavian names. But when a whole dynasty of Rurikovich (in the era of Yaroslav) consisting dozens of people had almost exclusively Slavic names – this dynasty is undoubtedly Slavic. The origin in this case plays no role, as it doesn’t matter the pure-blood-line German origin of Nicholas I or Queen Victoria
Since the state they were exiled to (Rus) was a Scandinavian state
Nonsense
The state where the ruling dynasty has exclusively Slavic names, all aristocratic titles – Slavic, laws – Slavic, the written language is Slavic. Books that have been written for the princes
of the Slavic language, too. Troops in the vast majority – Slavic. And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods, with human sacrifice. For the sake of the Slavic gods, the pagan priests killed….Scandinavians.
Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such.You also ignored Yaroslav's reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?
Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav.
It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn't a Slavic thing. The Norse were, of course, Germanic. Same with jury trials, another Norse thing. The law was written in Slavic because the population was mostly Slavic but the writer was a Scandinavian and the law that this Scandinavian ruler created followed Norse legal norms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russkaya_PravdaIn spite of great influence of Byzantine legislation on the contemporary world, and in spite of great cultural and commercial ties between Byzantium and Rus', the Russkaya Pravda bore no similarity whatever to that of the Byzantine Empire. The absence of capital and corporal punishment rather reflects the Norse way of thought.Wikipedia links to this book.
Collection of «weregild», jury trials and so on was a common features of the barbaric laws (such as Salic law) reflecting the views of early medieval tribes about justice.
Oops. Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right? :-)Link about Vladimir's Norse religion is here.Replies: @melanf
And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods,
I would therefore argue that while geographically-speaking Russia (at least the most populated part of it) is in Europe, culturally it has never shared a common history or, even less so, a common culture with the West.
It’s certainly not about modern Russia. The history which is taught in Russian schools is the history of Europe (and the history of Russia of course). In the school course describes in detail the ancient world and of medieval Catholic Europe. But about the Eastern civilization (India, China) and Byzantium said very little.
To Byzantium the attitude is particularly bad, the word “Byzantium” in the Russian language has become synonymous with treachery, cruelty and decadence.
This attitude towards different civilizations can be seen on the example of Historical reenactment. In this area in Russia, many fans of the Vikings, the Franks, the crusaders, the Swiss, etc. But to Byzantium – zero interest.
Similarly in literature – published many books on the material of medieval Catholic Europe (fantasy, historical novels). About Byzantium, there is nothing
Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such.You also ignored Yaroslav's reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?
Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav.
It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn't a Slavic thing. The Norse were, of course, Germanic. Same with jury trials, another Norse thing. The law was written in Slavic because the population was mostly Slavic but the writer was a Scandinavian and the law that this Scandinavian ruler created followed Norse legal norms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russkaya_PravdaIn spite of great influence of Byzantine legislation on the contemporary world, and in spite of great cultural and commercial ties between Byzantium and Rus', the Russkaya Pravda bore no similarity whatever to that of the Byzantine Empire. The absence of capital and corporal punishment rather reflects the Norse way of thought.Wikipedia links to this book.
Collection of «weregild», jury trials and so on was a common features of the barbaric laws (such as Salic law) reflecting the views of early medieval tribes about justice.
Oops. Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right? :-)Link about Vladimir's Norse religion is here.Replies: @melanf
And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods,
Scandinavian mercenaries made up a fifth of the forces of Yaroslav.
Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such.
As can be seen from the text of the chronicle, the « core professional » Vikings played such a minor role that in the description of the battle they not mentioned at all. The war was won by the troops of Novgorod
You also ignored Yaroslav’s reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?
Maybe because Yaroslav’s Scandinavian mercenaries were soundly defeated?
It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.
Similar rules in “Polish truth” (Poland) and the “Statuta Konrádova” (Czech Kingdom)
And, icing on the cake, in Kiev was installed (by Prince Vladimir) state cult of Slavic gods,
Oops.
Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right?
Primary Chronicle:
« Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh…»
Perun, Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh – do you really think that is Norse, not Slavic pagan religion? 😉
Ironically, the Norse sagas don't mention Novgorodians at all but mention the 1,000 Scandinavians. And they are more detailed about Yaroslav's life than are the Chronicles - so, a better source.
"Your post proves my point. The core professional soldiers were the 1,000 Scandinavians, the 4,000 Slavic Novgorodians were the assembled militia, carpenters and such."
As can be seen from the text of the chronicle, the « core professional » Vikings played such a minor role that in the description of the battle they not mentioned at all. The war was won by the troops of Novgorod
Which is irrelevant with respect to our discussion about Yaroslav relying on Scandinavian troops. As we have seen, he relied on Scandinavian troops against Sviatopolk, against Mstislav, and in the 1030s, Harald Sigurdsson (future king ogf Norway) along with Eilifr served as leaders of Yaroslav's military forces. So at every stage, Norsemen played a central role.
You also ignored Yaroslav’s reliance on Scandinavians in his war against Mstislav. Why?
Maybe because Yaroslav’s Scandinavian mercenaries were soundly defeated?
Both influenced by Germanic customs.
It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.
Similar rules in “Polish truth” (Poland) and the “Statuta Konrádova” (Czech Kingdom)
We are discussing Vladimir's religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev's people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong? :-)
Oops.
Before Christianity Vladimir followed the Norse, not Slavic pagan religion. A real |Slav, right?
Primary Chronicle:
« Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh…»
Perun, Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh – do you really think that is Norse, not Slavic pagan religion?
In retrospect Russia should have done in Northern Caucasus what Europeans did in North America, and re-populate the region with Orthodox Christians.
To a very large extent, that’s exactly what happened. The Muslim tribes of the Western Caucasus in the majority migrated to Turkey (1864 – 1867), so the dominant religion was Christianity.
Now we have a millions-strong radical Muslim population in Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan and Kabardino-Balkaria, AND we have millions of them emigrating to traditionally Orthodox parts of Russia.
“Millions-strong Muslim radical” is a very strong exaggeration. But of course in Russia a serious problem with radical Islam
Its not an exaggeration since the overall number of these “tribes” or ethnicities is several millions and basically all problems related to radical Islam and terrorism in Russia have their roots in North Caucasus.
Radical Muslims among them a minority. During the invasion of the Wahhabis in Dagestan in 1999, the radicals had to fight battles with militia of local “tribes” .
However for terrorist attacks support minority is quite enough.
As can be seen from the text of the chronicle, the « core professional » Vikings played such a minor role that in the description of the battle they not mentioned at all. The war was won by the troops of Novgorod
Ironically, the Norse sagas don’t mention Novgorodians at all but mention the 1,000 Scandinavians. And they are more detailed about Yaroslav’s life than are the Chronicles – so, a better source
see: Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, written by Samuel Hazzard Cross, Speculum, University of Chicago Press.
The authors of these sagas did not even know who was the enemy of Yaroslav: « The
saga confuses to some extent the names of the contending Russian princes, who are
referred to as Burizleifr, Jarizleifr, and Varnlaf (Vartilaf). The name Burizleifr applies
obviously to Svyatopolk… » (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, written by Samuel Hazzard Cross, Speculum, University of Chicago Press). The wife of Vladimir in the sagas is Olga and so on. «Saga has manifestly unhistorical haracter of much of its narrative» Alas the sagas are not reliable source on the history of «ancient Russia». A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)
A Russian Svidomist will likely believe the story that carpenters were more important in a battle than were seasoned professional soldiers. But objectively, the Scandinavians were the core and the civilian militia were the adjuncts.
Alas, the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press) argues otherwise
Of course in reality, the Novgorod army was recruited from the nobility. As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs) completely looted and destroyed the capital of Sweden
They sailed into Lake Mälar from the sea,
whether calm or stormy it might be,
Once their minds to the idea did turn,
that they the town of Sigtuna should burn,
and so thoroughly they put it to the flame,
that it since then has never been the same.
There Archbishop Jon was killed,
a deed that many a heathen thrilled
Which is irrelevant with respect to our discussion about Yaroslav relying on Scandinavian troops.
As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats. However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian. Multicultural family heh heh
It was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.
It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing
Primary Chronicle:
« Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh…»
Perun, Khors, Dazh’bog, Stribog, Simar’gl, and Mokosh – do you really think that is Norse, not Slavic pagan religion?We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?
The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.
A primary source is not necessarily a reliable source. A reliable source is a legitimate objective academic who interprets the primary source...such as the author of the Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, Samuel Hazzard Cross.What does he conclude at the end of his article (page 197)?"The importance of these Icelandic references to the age of Yaroslav lies rather in retrospect. They show that among the descendants of Rurik there existed a continuity of tradition associating them with the leading families of Scandinavia. The capacity of the outstanding princes of Kiev was, in fact, a product of Scandinavian energy than of Slavic inertia. The restricted character of Scandinavian influence on early Russian civilization is explicable on one hand by the proximity of Kiev to the superior culture of Byzantium and on the other hand by the peculiar absorbent power that Russia has always had on the immigrant. Furthermore, in view of even this evidence as to the intimate relationships between the Russian princes and their Scandinavian contemporaries, there can be little question but that the ultimate Scandinavian origin of the Russian princely house was clearly recognized by its members.
A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)
This apparent sneak attack took place 100 years later. Please stay on topic.
. As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs)
Again, the point is not his rate of success but that he relied on them.
As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats.
It is merely one part of the overall picture. If Sviatopolk was himself 100% (or perhaps 75%) of Pecheneg ancestry and and he married a Pecheneg princess and he relied on Pecheneg troops and his court was a place of exile and training for Pechenegs then yes, he would be a Pecheneg. But this of course was not the case.In contrast, Yarslav was of 100% Scandinavian ancestry (slight chance - 75%), and he relied on Scandinavian troops, and he married a Scandinavian princess, and his court was a place for Scandinavians to spend time in while they were exiled, etc. All together this adds up to a very clear picture, that only a true Russian svidomite, blinded by his Russian svidomism, cannot see.
However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian.
Nope. From Britannica:Wergild, also spelled Wergeld, or Weregild, (Old English: “man payment”), in ancient Germanic law, the amount of compensation paid by a person committing an offense to the injured party or, in case of death, to his family. For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section "Germanic Contacts."In summary: Russka Pravda fits effortlessly into the category of other Germanic legal codes from that time. It's closest to Lex Saxonum, from a region that bordered Jutland. In fact, the expert concludes " the first impression received upon acquainting oneself with an RP text is that it is not unlike the text of the early medieval Germanic laws."Your Russian svidomism is strong indeed for you deny the basic Germanic nature of the Russka Pravda.So - 100% Scandinavian descent (slight chance, only 75%) prince, surrounding himself and dependent on Scandinavian warriors, married to Scandinavian princess, has a court that is a place of exile for various Scandinavians, and created a legal code that is typically Germanic in content - is a Slav. Very funny. :-)
It [weregild] was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing
"Opinion of madman?" The source, that I linked to, is Semantics of Statebuilding: Language, Meanings and Sovereignty, by Nicolas Lemay-Hébert, Nicholas Onuf, Vojin Rakić, Petar BojanićAuthors of the source are all legitimate academics.Let me remind you what was in their book: "“Prince Vladmir, who followed the Old Norse religion of his parents.”This statement also appears in Russia's Identity in International Relations: Images, Perceptions, Misperceptions, edited by Ray Taras.Replies: @melanf, @melanf
"We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?"The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.
“Ex-soldier of the Ukrainian battalion “Donbass” Sergey Jerzewski (colleague Parshov) stated that Voronenkov murder is personal revenge, by Parshov. Parshov was not recruited by anyone.
“I don’t think he was recruited by the (Russian secret services). Maybe someone put him up to it. He was not cunning, thoughtful. And he didn’t have Pro-Russian views”, he “hated Russia.”
Just a little over 4 million. The only region where they still form a solid majority is in the north, in what was once known as "South Siberia."
What’s so special about North Kazakhstan? Are there still a lot of Russians there?
The generally favored solution amongst Russian nationalists is to replace the current hodgepodge of oblasts, republics, krais, autonomous republics, okrugs, autonomous okrugs, and whatnot, with their varying levels of autonomy, with the Tsarist era guberniya system.
Are you in favour of abolishing those republics or what’s your position on them?
Not sure there is one. Ultimately, all nationalities are social constructs to some degree or another, and are a matter of ticking off a certain number of checkmarks:
What’s the core of Russian identity for you?
Not really, though I do subscribe somewhat to Orthodox Christianity as being part of implicit Russian identity. (Much like Judaism is for Jews. Golda Meir: "I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God).Replies: @German_reader, @melanf, @ussr andy, @bjondo, @Seraphim
Is Orthodox Christianity necessarily a central element?
The generally favored solution amongst Russian nationalists is to replace the current hodgepodge of oblasts, republics, krais, autonomous republics, okrugs, autonomous okrugs, and whatnot, with their varying levels of autonomy, with the Tsarist era guberniya system.
Completely unrealistic idea. Attempts to implement this approach will lead to deep conflict and possible to civil war.
A relatively realistic way is to gradually equalize all parts of Russia in rights (for example of the States of the USA)
Does anyone propose formally expelling Chechnya and making it a client state to keep an eye on it?
And what’s the point?
Nationalists dream to expel Chechnya (and also Dagestan and Ingushetia) from Russia, to deport all the natives of these republics, and fenced off by a wall. This idea is quite crazy, but the logic is clear.
But what’s the point to create a “client state”?
For stability.
what’s the point to create a “client state”?
This is one idea, though I certainly wouldn't say that's a Russian nationalist policy per se. I doubt that's even the majority opinion.
Nationalists dream to expel Chechnya (and also Dagestan and Ingushetia) from Russia, to deport all the natives of these republics, and fenced off by a wall.
For stability.
what’s the point to create a “client state”?
what’s the point to create a “client state”?
For stability.
A Chechnya with no Russian involvement would probably end up a regional base for ISIS-like groups. Am I wrong?
For this (at least for the near future) it is better to leave Chechnya as part of Russia. Exterminate the Islamists, using brute force, is almost impossible in a foreign country
This is one idea, though I certainly wouldn't say that's a Russian nationalist policy per se. I doubt that's even the majority opinion.
Nationalists dream to expel Chechnya (and also Dagestan and Ingushetia) from Russia, to deport all the natives of these republics, and fenced off by a wall.
However, as territories that were only definitively conquered in the 19th century, like Central Asia, they do have a point that a Russia with Chechnya but without, say, Belorussia is a fairly strange construct.
The proclamation of the “Reconquista” is even more strange idea. The only result will be a rapid rapprochement of Belarus with NATO.
It is necessary to solve the internal problems of Russia – then the integration with Russia ( for Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) will look better than rapprochement with the EU.
Promotion of aggressive policies will only harm Russia (protection of the Russian population in the conditions of the neo-Nazi coup in Ukraine – a very different case)
A primary source is not necessarily a reliable source. A reliable source is a legitimate objective academic who interprets the primary source...such as the author of the Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, Samuel Hazzard Cross.What does he conclude at the end of his article (page 197)?"The importance of these Icelandic references to the age of Yaroslav lies rather in retrospect. They show that among the descendants of Rurik there existed a continuity of tradition associating them with the leading families of Scandinavia. The capacity of the outstanding princes of Kiev was, in fact, a product of Scandinavian energy than of Slavic inertia. The restricted character of Scandinavian influence on early Russian civilization is explicable on one hand by the proximity of Kiev to the superior culture of Byzantium and on the other hand by the peculiar absorbent power that Russia has always had on the immigrant. Furthermore, in view of even this evidence as to the intimate relationships between the Russian princes and their Scandinavian contemporaries, there can be little question but that the ultimate Scandinavian origin of the Russian princely house was clearly recognized by its members.
A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)
This apparent sneak attack took place 100 years later. Please stay on topic.
. As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs)
Again, the point is not his rate of success but that he relied on them.
As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats.
It is merely one part of the overall picture. If Sviatopolk was himself 100% (or perhaps 75%) of Pecheneg ancestry and and he married a Pecheneg princess and he relied on Pecheneg troops and his court was a place of exile and training for Pechenegs then yes, he would be a Pecheneg. But this of course was not the case.In contrast, Yarslav was of 100% Scandinavian ancestry (slight chance - 75%), and he relied on Scandinavian troops, and he married a Scandinavian princess, and his court was a place for Scandinavians to spend time in while they were exiled, etc. All together this adds up to a very clear picture, that only a true Russian svidomite, blinded by his Russian svidomism, cannot see.
However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian.
Nope. From Britannica:Wergild, also spelled Wergeld, or Weregild, (Old English: “man payment”), in ancient Germanic law, the amount of compensation paid by a person committing an offense to the injured party or, in case of death, to his family. For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section "Germanic Contacts."In summary: Russka Pravda fits effortlessly into the category of other Germanic legal codes from that time. It's closest to Lex Saxonum, from a region that bordered Jutland. In fact, the expert concludes " the first impression received upon acquainting oneself with an RP text is that it is not unlike the text of the early medieval Germanic laws."Your Russian svidomism is strong indeed for you deny the basic Germanic nature of the Russka Pravda.So - 100% Scandinavian descent (slight chance, only 75%) prince, surrounding himself and dependent on Scandinavian warriors, married to Scandinavian princess, has a court that is a place of exile for various Scandinavians, and created a legal code that is typically Germanic in content - is a Slav. Very funny. :-)
It [weregild] was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing
"Opinion of madman?" The source, that I linked to, is Semantics of Statebuilding: Language, Meanings and Sovereignty, by Nicolas Lemay-Hébert, Nicholas Onuf, Vojin Rakić, Petar BojanićAuthors of the source are all legitimate academics.Let me remind you what was in their book: "“Prince Vladmir, who followed the Old Norse religion of his parents.”This statement also appears in Russia's Identity in International Relations: Images, Perceptions, Misperceptions, edited by Ray Taras.Replies: @melanf, @melanf
"We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?"The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.
Authors of the source are all legitimate academics blah-blah-blah
“by the middle of the 10th century the Rus had assimilated with the native Slavs and lost their distinct identity…. Even by 907, the Rus appear to have adopted native religious beliefs, swearing to uphold the treaties by the Slavic gods Perun, a thunder god, and Veles, a chthonic deity etc. etc”
Northmen. The viking saga 793–1241 ad. John Haywood
Read through Google ( I’m too lazy to drag down the whole text here) . Self-education is always useful
A primary source is not necessarily a reliable source. A reliable source is a legitimate objective academic who interprets the primary source...such as the author of the Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, Samuel Hazzard Cross.What does he conclude at the end of his article (page 197)?"The importance of these Icelandic references to the age of Yaroslav lies rather in retrospect. They show that among the descendants of Rurik there existed a continuity of tradition associating them with the leading families of Scandinavia. The capacity of the outstanding princes of Kiev was, in fact, a product of Scandinavian energy than of Slavic inertia. The restricted character of Scandinavian influence on early Russian civilization is explicable on one hand by the proximity of Kiev to the superior culture of Byzantium and on the other hand by the peculiar absorbent power that Russia has always had on the immigrant. Furthermore, in view of even this evidence as to the intimate relationships between the Russian princes and their Scandinavian contemporaries, there can be little question but that the ultimate Scandinavian origin of the Russian princely house was clearly recognized by its members.
A reliable source remains the Primary Chronicle, what the article « Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition » says right: «In these accounts, we find confused reminiscences of the actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle» (Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)
This apparent sneak attack took place 100 years later. Please stay on topic.
. As to the fighting qualities of the «Vikings»: in 1187, the Novgorod Karelians (possibly with the help of Novgorod Slavs)
Again, the point is not his rate of success but that he relied on them.
As we know from the “actual course of events as outlined by the Russian Chronicle” ((Yaroslav the Wise in Norse Tradition, University of Chicago Press)), the Vikings badly served Yaroslav – all the time suffered defeats.
It is merely one part of the overall picture. If Sviatopolk was himself 100% (or perhaps 75%) of Pecheneg ancestry and and he married a Pecheneg princess and he relied on Pecheneg troops and his court was a place of exile and training for Pechenegs then yes, he would be a Pecheneg. But this of course was not the case.In contrast, Yarslav was of 100% Scandinavian ancestry (slight chance - 75%), and he relied on Scandinavian troops, and he married a Scandinavian princess, and his court was a place for Scandinavians to spend time in while they were exiled, etc. All together this adds up to a very clear picture, that only a true Russian svidomite, blinded by his Russian svidomism, cannot see.
However if you believe that the use of Scandinavian mercenaries turns Yaroslav in the Scandinavian, his brother Svyatopolk turns out to be a Pecheneg, and another brother, Mstislav – Ossetian.
Nope. From Britannica:Wergild, also spelled Wergeld, or Weregild, (Old English: “man payment”), in ancient Germanic law, the amount of compensation paid by a person committing an offense to the injured party or, in case of death, to his family. For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section "Germanic Contacts."In summary: Russka Pravda fits effortlessly into the category of other Germanic legal codes from that time. It's closest to Lex Saxonum, from a region that bordered Jutland. In fact, the expert concludes " the first impression received upon acquainting oneself with an RP text is that it is not unlike the text of the early medieval Germanic laws."Your Russian svidomism is strong indeed for you deny the basic Germanic nature of the Russka Pravda.So - 100% Scandinavian descent (slight chance, only 75%) prince, surrounding himself and dependent on Scandinavian warriors, married to Scandinavian princess, has a court that is a place of exile for various Scandinavians, and created a legal code that is typically Germanic in content - is a Slav. Very funny. :-)
It [weregild] was a common feature of Germanic barbaric laws. It wasn’t a Slavic thing.It was a common feature of any barbaric laws. It was a universal barbaric thing
"Opinion of madman?" The source, that I linked to, is Semantics of Statebuilding: Language, Meanings and Sovereignty, by Nicolas Lemay-Hébert, Nicholas Onuf, Vojin Rakić, Petar BojanićAuthors of the source are all legitimate academics.Let me remind you what was in their book: "“Prince Vladmir, who followed the Old Norse religion of his parents.”This statement also appears in Russia's Identity in International Relations: Images, Perceptions, Misperceptions, edited by Ray Taras.Replies: @melanf, @melanf
"We are discussing Vladimir’s religion, not the religion of Kiev. I provided a non-Russian Svidomist source showing that Vladimir followed the Norse Gods. You write about the idols he had built for Kiev’s people. Is this how you admit that you were wrong?"The primary source (Primary Chronicle) claims that Vladimir worshipped the Slavic gods (like his ancestors). Other primary sources on this issue does not exist. Found through Google opinion of madman (devoid of any evidence) is not a source at all.
For a summary of the obvious similarities between Russka Pravda and Germanic Scandinavian laws read this link to the book Law in Medieval Russia. Scroll to page 53, the section “Germanic Contacts.”
Dear friend! It’s sad that you have not read this section until the end. Otherwise you’d see the conclusion:
“The earliest law of other Slavic peoples, where there is no reason for assuming any significant Germanic influence, appears to be quite similar to Old-Russian law”
(book “Law in Medieval Russia” Ferdinand Joseph Maria Feldbrugge, section “Germanic Contacts”, p 56)
Also from the same the section:
“Also, the Viking element, although very visible, must have been The earliest law of other Slavic peoples, where there is no reason for assuming any significant Germanic influence, appears to be quite similar to Old-Russian lawsmall in quantitative terms and was quickly absorbed into the Russian population and Russian culture.”
“The Russian signatories of the 945 treaty, although clearly Vikings, judging by their names, did not swear by Thor, but by Perun the Slavic god of thunder, indicating that the Varangian retinue of the Kievan prince had already adopted the religion of their Slavic surroundings”
and so on.
As you can see science in the West, too, is dominated by “Russian svidomism”. But I’m sure you will soon overtake traditional science and rigid adherents of this science, thanks to your revolutionary negationist theories.
Supposedly he let a lot of Islamists out of prison back in 2011 when the protests started so they would discredit the opposition.
Freed prisoners was what the opposition wanted.
I don’t know, does it happen in Russia? (“It’s still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun”)
Its agenda has long been forgotten. Currently in Russia the prevailing view – that white heterosexuals are the victims of racial discrimination in America
For me the question is why did they suffer more losses than the Germans.
The main reason is simple – the German industry was far superior to the Soviet. The Wehrmacht was armed with much better weapons.
Ukrainians, Belarusians and Caucasians were considered to be much less loyal to the USSR.
Strange point of view. Belarusians fought a despeate guerrilla war against the German occupation .
“Caucasians” – the unification of a very, very different peoples
True, but it's a bit more complicated than the modern heroic Soviet mythology in Belarus. Not all partisans were locals, and many villages were neutral and not friendly towards the Soviets. Soviet partisans often conducted raids near neutral villages so that the Germans would retaliate against the villages, slaughtering villagers and turning those villages pro-Soviet. A cynical, deadly but effective ploy.Replies: @melanf
Strange point of view. Belarusians fought a despeate guerrilla war against the German occupation .
True, but it's a bit more complicated than the modern heroic Soviet mythology in Belarus. Not all partisans were locals, and many villages were neutral and not friendly towards the Soviets. Soviet partisans often conducted raids near neutral villages so that the Germans would retaliate against the villages, slaughtering villagers and turning those villages pro-Soviet. A cynical, deadly but effective ploy.Replies: @melanf
Strange point of view. Belarusians fought a despeate guerrilla war against the German occupation .
True, but it’s a bit more complicated. Not all partisans were locals, and many villages were neutral and not friendly towards the Soviets. Soviet partisans often conducted raids …
The same thing happened in the occupied territories of “true” Russia.
Probably the same thing happened everywhere where fought a guerrilla war.
The Buryats aka the Eskimo and other circumpolar peoples were made fun in the Red Army, yet they were the best fighters. These valiant people conquered China (Manchus) and an eye should be kept on them.
Buryatia is the Mongols. They (along with other mongolskij tribes) really conquered China, but in the era of Genghis Khan and his descendants.
Some Soviet weapons were better. The T-34 and KV-1 tanks were
It is a myth. In 1940, the Soviet Union conducted comparative tests of the Pz III (purchased from Germany) and T-34, and came to the conclusion that the Pz III is superior to the Soviet tanks . The test results were so disappointing that the military is expected to stop production of the T-34, but instead to produce a copy of the Pz III .
“The study of the last examples of a foreign tank shows that the most successful among them is the German medium tank “Daimler-Benz T-3G”… He has the most successful combination of mobility and armor protection at a small combat weight – approx. 20t… It says that the specified tank at a comparable T-34 armor protection, with a more spacious fighting compartment, excellent mobility…. the main disadvantage of this type of tank is it’s armament of 37mm gun.
But according to the Sept. the intelligence report, these tanks already remade by armor up to 45-52 mm and armament 47mm or even 55mm gun…
I think that the German army has a tank that has the best combination of mobility, firepower and armor protection, backed by a good review with jobs crew member…
Need not wasting a minute to continue work on the tank “126” (copy of Pz III ) to bring all of its characteristics to the level of German cars.
13/IX-40 Fedorenko“.
After the war the German generals were lying about the combat quality of the Soviet tanks to justify their own defeat. The quality of other types of weapons of the Soviet army was also greatly inferior to the enemys weapon
T-34 was the best tank in the world until 1943
No (see comment above). T-34 from the beginning of the war was greatly inferior to the German tanks in fighting qualities.
Wermacht was armed not with better weapons most of the time, but with more weapons.
Not all types of weapons. For example the Soviet Union produced more tanks and aircraft. But the quality of German weapons in most cases was much better
iirc Soviet losses in the battle of Berlin were about as high as American losses in the entire war
Soviet losses in the battle of Berlin – 70 000 (killed)
American losses in the entire war – 400 000
don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about.
I have idea.
When historians turned to the military documents of the era ( not to the memoirs of German generals, and postwar Soviet propaganda) the myth about superiority of T-34 collapsed like a house of cards.
T-34-76 (compared to Pz III) had a larger caliber gun and thicker armor. However, the Pz III had a cumulative shells and APDS (T-34 did not have such shells ) that completely balanced the superiority of the Soviet tank in gun and thickness of armor. In the rest the German tank was superior. Pz III shot faster, Pz III shot more precisely, the Pz III had the best optics, had a better radio, better maneuvering, it was more reliable, etc.
However in 1941 the battle between the tanks were a rarity. In 1941 the Germans had numerous anti-tank guns equipped with APDSI and cumulative shells. Because of this, the Germans easily destroyed T-34. The Soviet Union not had such weapons – first piercing projectiles in the USSR were made only in 1942 (for the sake of 4,000 tons of tungsten was obtained from China). Production сumulative shells in the USSR was established only at the end of the war
Of course Hitler would have none of it and the Germans designed the Panther, which pretty much copied the main idea of the design of T-34
Heinz Guderian, who knew something about tanks
Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians), but a talented writer. About the T 34 Guderian in his memoirs shamelessly lied, for obvious reasons.
The Germans early in the war captured a huge number of T-34, but almost did not use them. That is, the fighting qualities of the T-34 did not cause enthusiasm among the Germans
Which military historians?
Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians)
If the Panzer III was so outstanding, why did German AFV development focus on the Panzer IV, V (Panther) and VI (Tiger I and Tiger II)?
Because the arms race. The Soviet Union in 1944 was replaced the T-34-76

by T-34-85

The shells fired from Panzer III were bouncing off of T-34, making it unimportant whether it could fire faster or more accurately
This fairy tales (composed after the war by defeated German generals)
“cumulative shells played an important role in the tank troops of the Wehrmacht….
As an example, the 3rd armored division, which operated in may 1942 at Kharkov: third tank battalion, 6th tank regiment of the division had 5 tanks “Pz.II”, 34 tanks “Pz.III” with 50-mm and 6 “Pz.IV” with 75-mm gun. In the period from 12 to 22 may, the battalion destroyed:
5 tanks, KW is immobilized using cumulative shells
36 tanks “T-34” destroyed: 24 tanks by 75-mm cumulative shells , and 12 tanks “T-34” by 50-mm armor-piercing shells of tank “Pz.III.”
16 tanks “BT” destroyed by shells of 50 mm guns
5 tanks “MK.II” ( “Matilda”) disabled…”
Isaev A. V., “Ten myths of the Second World War”
“50-mm gun tanks “Pz.III”… successfully punched through side armor of the “KV-1” (thickness 75 mm) using a piercing projectile from a distance of …300 m,
and punched through the frontal armor of “KW-1″ (thickness 105 mm) with a distance of 40 m.”
Isaev A. V., “Ten myths of the Second World War”
Armor of the T-34 is much inferior to the armor of the KW-1
T-34 was the best tank in the world until 1943
The results of testing tanks T-34 and KW by the US military at the Aberdeen proving grounds, 1942.
http://english.battlefield.ru/en/tank-development/27-medium-tanks/95-t44.html
“General comments
From the American point of view, our tanks are slow. Both our tanks can climb an incline better than any American tank. The welding of the armor plating is extremely crude and careless. The radio sets in laboratory tests turned out to be not bad. However, because of poor shielding and poor protection, after installation in the tanks the sets did not manage to establish normal communications at distances greater than 10 miles. The compactness of the radio sets and their intelligent placement in the tanks was pleasing. The machining of equipment components and parts was, with few exceptions, very poor. In particular, the Americans were troubled by the disgraceful design and extremely poor work on the transmission links on the T-34. After much torment they made a new ones and replaced ours. All the tanks mechanisms demand very frequent fine-tuning…..
Сomparing American and Russian tanks, it is clear that driving Russian tanks is much harder. A virtuosity is demanded of Russian drivers in changing gear on the move, special experience in using friction clutches, great experience as a mechanic, and the ability to keep tanks in working condition (adjustments and repairs of components, which are constantly becoming disabled). This greatly complicates the training of tankers and drivers.
Judging by samples, Russians when producing tanks pay little attention to careful machining or the finishing and technology of small parts and components, which leads to the loss of the advantage what would otherwise accrue from what on the whole are well designed tanks.
Despite the advantages of the use of diesel, the good contours of the tanks, thick armor, good and reliable armaments, the successful design of the tracks etc., Russian tanks are significantly inferior to American tanks in their simplicity of driving, manoeuvrability, the strength of firing (reference to muzzle velocity), speed, the reliability of mechanical construction and the ease of keeping them running.
The head of the 2nd Department of the Main Intelligence Department of the Red Army, major-general Khlopov
”
Furthermore if Panzer III and IV were better designs than T-34, why would the Germans bother designing Panzer V and VI? To attract more investors?
1) Because technically simple T-34 was produced in huge quantities, the result was (to late 1942) the defeat of the Wehrmacht. German tanks were better, but the numerical superiority of Soviet armored forces were more important. The Germans tried by new tanks to turn the tide of war
2) Because the Germans were expecting (rightly) that the Soviet Union rearming its army with more advanced tanks (as happened in 1944 – The Soviet Union replaced the T-34-76 by T-34-85 and tank KW by tank IS-2)
You are not making any sense, my friend. The Germans designed Panzer V an VI because T-34 was produced in large quantities? And when the Germans produced Panzer V an VI, the Russians got scared and stopped making the T-34 in large quantities? I can see that you've read a lot on the subject, but you have difficulty properly processing the information. T-34 was the best tank ever - in what it managed to accomplish. You can try to argue until you turn blue in the face, I won't buy it.
Furthermore if Panzer III and IV were better designs than T-34, why would the Germans bother designing Panzer V and VI? To attract more investors?1) Because technically simple T-34 was produced in huge quantities,
Which military historians?
Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians)
Heinz Guderian was a bad General (this is the assessment of military historians)
Which military historians?….
He was later largely successful in Russia as long as the circumstances were reasonably favorable.
http://topbloger.livejournal.com/14260584.html
“Alexey Isaev: For example, I became extremely skeptical of Guderian. It’s possible to say that the darling of the public. But as a tank commander he was, shall we say, not the sharpest knife in the table. And when he directly commanded the troops, always Encirclement (which he did in 1941) was leaky. So it was near Minsk and Bryansk under, everywhere had closed the Encirclement. … as the commander of Panzer group, and Panzer army later, I will say that Guderian not enthusiastic.
This is a man who, in his memoirs, modestly talks about his failures. Therefore, following a decade of study including German documents, he has been a disappointment. Manstein is a man who really showed throughout the war the high level of professionalism. But still the tank commanders one and two in Germany were …. but Kleist and Hothт. People who for months and years, quite successfully led to battle tanks. Therefore, we should not ever judge a person according to his memoirs. … for example, Hothт, wrote memoirs, a weak, but nevertheless he was the man who came to Minsk, Smolensk, Moscow and Stalingrad and Hothт is definitely a professional tank commander. But Guderian in literature was more successful …. From a literary point of view is very nice to read, but this does not always coincide with reality.”
Guderian is Moltke the younger of WWII
Manstein first thought to follow annihilation theory (Vernichtungsgedanke), envisaging a swing from Sedan to the north, rapidly to annihilate the Allied armies in a cauldron battle (Kesselschlacht). When discussing his intentions with Lieutenant-General Heinz Guderian, commander of the XIX Panzer Corps, the latter proposed to turn it into a strategy to avoid the main body of the Allied armies and swiftly advance with the armoured divisions to the English Channel, to cause the Allies to collapse by catching them off guard and cutting their supply lines. It was thus Guderian who introduced the true "Blitzkrieg" elements to the plan, while Manstein had at first many objections against this aspect, especially fearing the long open flank created by such an advance. Guderian managed to convince him that the danger of a French counterattack from the south could be averted by a simultaneous secondary spoiling offensive to the south, in the general direction of Reims.
We always hear how devastating the summer 1941 was for Russians and how Stalin was to blame for essentially decapitating the army. Yet, we never hear that militarily the Russians even then performed considerably better than French did in 1940.
The Soviet military command was a lot lot better than the French military command. Soviet troops (unlike the French) always constantly counterattacked against the Germans, which ultimately led to the failure of “Barbarossa”. If in 39-40 Soviet generals commanded the French army, the Germans would have been defeated in Belgium
About “decapitating the army” the Soviet myth. Terror has affected a relatively small number of officers. Military talents of the majority of victims are questionable.
Highly questionable.
If in 39-40 Soviet generals commanded the French army, the Germans would have been defeated in Belgium
"Stalin responsible for more deaths than Hitler" is false but not ridiculously so. Hitler beat Stalin but about 3 million people but both monsters killed people in the millions and both were far deadlier than anyone who came before, in centuries.
Among the ridiculous things I’ve heard are, “Stalin was responsible for more deaths than Hitler” (whatever that even means) and “most of the Soviet citizens killed in WW2 were Ukrainians.” This is coming from college educated, 120+ IQ people.
Hitler beat Stalin but both monsters killed people in the millions and both were far deadlier than anyone who came before, in centuries.
In the case of Stalin – not millions.
http://polit.ru/article/2007/12/11/repressii/
“…In fact, the number of prisoners for political reasons (for “counterrevolutionary crimes”) in the USSR in the period from 1921 to 1953, i.e. after 33 years was about 3.8 million people… during this period ( 1921 to 1954 ) has been convicted 3 777 380 people, including to capital punishment – 642 980, to the contents in camps and prisons for a term of 25 years and below – 2 369 220, into exile and expulsion – 765 180 people“.
Of course it’s possible to start to count “victims of famine”. But in this case, Stalin will be a great humanist, in comparison with the rulers of the British Empire.
“A cruel tax and trade-usurious exploitation of the peasantry (in India) had caused widespread hunger . If 1825-1850. the famine twice struck the country and claimed 0.4 million human lives, in 1850-1875 famine killed 5 million, in 1875-1900. — 26 million.”
(ИСТОРИЯ ВОСТОКА IV Восток в новое время (конец XVIII — начало XX в.) Книга 2)
Remember Mahatma Gandhi: “Hitlerism and Churchillism are in fact the same thing”
Snyder:"In all, 682,691 people were killed during the Great Terror, to which might be added a few hundred thousand more Soviet citizens shot in smaller actions."I personally know of people such as kulaks who were shot and buried in a mass grave, whose murders probably weren't recorded in central archives.Once can include artificial famines also, of course. you are correct that these were worse in India. I was Eurocentric in my comment.Replies: @Anonymous
“…In fact, the number of prisoners for political reasons (for “counterrevolutionary crimes”) in the USSR in the period from 1921 to 1953, i.e. after 33 years was about 3.8 million people… during this period ( 1921 to 1954 ) has been convicted 3 777 380 people, including to capital punishment – 642 980,
That’s very good.
Not very good. The author accuses the USSR in the mistaken pursuit of quantity at the expense of quality. But for the Soviet Union (with a hastily created industry, and unskilled labor) it was not possible to produce the same high quality products as the Germans. In the end, the Soviet Union produced a lot of inferior tanks (so that the numerical superiority compensated the lack of quality) – strategy that fully worked, and led to the victory.
And in the article, a lot of juggling. For example, the author believes that the Arab-Israeli war – proof of unfitness for action of Soviet tanks. But how then should be assessed the extermination of the latest Saudi “Abrams” by Houthis (armed with Soviet weapons )?
This is true, and reminds me of another seeming shortcoming of the Soviets. A lot of observers (not only Germans, but for example Hungarians, too) have noticed that the Soviets often attacked frontally against fortified positions, essentially relying on very high concentrations of forces and thus created local numerical superiority. The disadvantage was that it led to very high casualties. Many have criticized Soviet leadership for not bypassing such positions.
for the Soviet Union (with a hastily created industry, and unskilled labor) it was not possible to produce the same high quality products as the Germans. In the end, the Soviet Union produced a lot of inferior tanks (so that the numerical superiority compensated the lack of quality) – strategy that fully worked, and led to the victory.
Snyder's numbers seem rather realistic:
I’m interested in the method of accounting. Whose deaths are we are talking about here? Do, for example, German soldiers during WW2 go into the Hitler column, or the Stalin column?
Absolute numbers. The Irish potato famine with 1 million victims killed about 20% or so of the Irish population. In contrast, the 3-4 million famine victims in Ukraine were "only" about 10% of that Republic's population, and the 3+ million victims in Russia those years was a smaller percentage.* The million or so who were shot were a smaller % still.
both were far deadlier than anyone who came before, in centuries
Are you speaking of absolute numbers, or percentages of populations?
Absolute numbers. The Irish potato famine with 1 million victims killed about 20% or so of the Irish population. In contrast, the 3-4 million famine victims in Ukraine were “only” about 10% of that Republic’s population, and the 3+ million victims in Russia those years was a smaller percentage.* The million or so who were shot were a smaller % still.
In 1932 in Ukraine 782 000 were born and 668 000 died, in 1933 – 359 000 were born and 1309 000 died (data from Центральное управление народохозяйственного учета Госплана СССР). 1309 000 – 668 000 = 641 000?
Clarification: a natural death rate for years that preceded famine 1932-1933 in Ucraine - 524 000 persons. In 1932 in Ukraine 668 000 died, in 1933 – 1309 000 died
1309 000 – 668 000 = 641 000?
In 1932 in Ukraine 782 000 were born and 668 000 died, in 1933 - 359 000 were born and 1309 000 died (data from Центральное управление народохозяйственного учета Госплана СССР). 1309 000 - 668 000 = 641 000?Replies: @melanf, @AP
Absolute numbers. The Irish potato famine with 1 million victims killed about 20% or so of the Irish population. In contrast, the 3-4 million famine victims in Ukraine were “only” about 10% of that Republic’s population, and the 3+ million victims in Russia those years was a smaller percentage.* The million or so who were shot were a smaller % still.
1309 000 – 668 000 = 641 000?
Clarification: a natural death rate for years that preceded famine 1932-1933 in Ucraine – 524 000 persons. In 1932 in Ukraine 668 000 died, in 1933 – 1309 000 died
Then number of victims of famine in Ucraine roghly
(1309 000 – 524 000)+( 668 000 – 524 000) = 831 000
Here’s a decent source, one of very many:
http://www.melgrosh.unimelb.edu.au/documents/SGW-UkranianFamine_mortality.pdf
That is, the author tries to use demographic interpolation to prove covert (unfixed in documents) deaths of millions of people.
This approach offers great opportunities to expose covert repression during the demographic transition.
In the future, probably political passions calmed, and it will be possible to find out who is right in the number of victims of hunger .
At this moment, the more likely that Western historians exaggerated the number of victims of famine for political purposes (as they definitely made with the number of victims of Stalin’s terror) and the number of registered deaths gives a correct assessment.
Complete nonsense. Even Russian estimates are much higher than the official registered death total. No significant modern researcher either in the West or in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims. This is something you personally do.Replies: @melanf
At this moment, the more likely that Western historians exaggerated the number of victims of famine for political purposes (as they definitely made with the number of victims of Stalin’s terror) and the number of registered deaths gives a correct assessment.
Complete nonsense. Even Russian estimates are much higher than the official registered death total. No significant modern researcher either in the West or in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims. This is something you personally do.Replies: @melanf
At this moment, the more likely that Western historians exaggerated the number of victims of famine for political purposes (as they definitely made with the number of victims of Stalin’s terror) and the number of registered deaths gives a correct assessment.
No significant modern researcher either in the West or in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims. This is something you personally do.
For example V. Zemskov and A. Shubin definitely takes the official death register as the actual number of victims
A. Shubin :
“Even according to Ukrainian researcher S. V. Kulchytsky, “it is impossible not to see that the statistical authorities to properly fulfill their professional duty locking from month to month stunning mortality”.
The Registrar phlegmatic recorded the mortality of the whole period of the famine. If you count deaths 1931 “background”, then the excess number of deaths in 1932-1933 is 1489,1 thousand. In 1931, before the famine in Ukraine died 514,7 thousand people, in 1932, when the famine was just beginning – 668,2 thousand. In 1933 the officially registered mortality was 1850,3 thousand. …There is evidence that the registry office in the midst of famine did not capture all deaths. But what is the number of unaccounted for deaths? Because in general, the Registrar recorded an unprecedented peak of mortality. This in itself suggests that the leadership of the country did not intend to “hide” the tragedy, even from myself. The underestimation of mortality could be due to local initiative .
It is also unclear what number of died from hunger and not for other reasons related to the deterioration of the social situation.
The number of victims may be slightly less (not all died of starvation), and some more (there may be some underreporting in the civil registry offices). Objective assessment of victims in this way is in the corridor of 1-2 million”
I previously gave the wrong figure – In 1933 the officially registered mortality in Ukraine was 1 850 000 , not 1 350 000. I apologize for this error
A. Shubin https://www.booklot.ru/authors/shubin-aleksandr-vladlenovich/book/10-mifov-sovetskoy-stranyi/content/2755582-skolko-jertv/ , 2006
V. Zemskov – http://eot-canada.ca/wp-ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/viktor-zemskov-politicheskie-repressii-v-sssr-1917-1990.pdf , 2009
Shubin is a leftist activist
Totally agree. And I do not share views оf Shubin. But in this case (famine 1932-33), Shubin spoke quite reasonably.
You questioned Western scholars’ objectivity
Yes. “Western scholars’” work on this topic – party propaganda, like Soviet “The History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union “. Of course the works Shubin is also party propaganda (from other political positions).
you use Shubin? Really?
I pointed out that your statement “No significant modern researcher either in in Russia takes the official death register as the actual number of victims” is wrong (regardless of the rightness/wrongness of Shubin)
Dynamics in Russia are remarkable analogous, though unlike the Chinese, I don’t think we’ve even progressed to the point of having our own term for SJWs.
99% of the population of Russia knows nothing about the existence of SJW. PC-fans of all shades will be in Russian called “толераст” (this is probably the most accurate analogue of word “baizuo”)
So, the lesson to be learned from Hitler's bad Sudetenland example is to be weary of any 'gangster-like methods' of any aggressive plays by one neighbor over lands held by another. I feel confident that had a real, legal referendum been held in Crimea, cessation would have won out - alas now, we'll never know for sure, for Putin took his plays right out of the Sudetenland playbook. BTW, Crimea and now Donbas are the first two chapters in Putin's own 'Triune' program. I'm just curious as to how far Karlin is on board with this program and if he's willing to advocate its spread to other parts of Ukraine?....He must be busy recalculating the recent French vote? :-)Replies: @melanf
the demands you mention would probably have been taken up by more “normal” German nationalists as well (even if they wouldn’t have employed Hitler’s gangster-like methods),
BTW, Crimea and now Donbas are the first two chapters in Putin’s own ‘Triune’ program
Dobass – no. Putin is making great efforts to return Dobass in Ukraine. However likely his efforts will fail, and Kiev nationalists (with their trade blockade https://www.ft.com/content/276f3fd8-098c-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43) will make Donbass a part of Russia
Who would have thought back in 2014 that we’d all be here? Back around the time of the Sochi Olympic Games we already knew the western media loved to throw mud at Putin and Russia but did any of us think it would go this far? The coup in Kiev; the blind eye turned on genuine neo-Nazi private militias carrying out massacres; the failed attempt to bring Donbass to heel; the tank battles and artillery duels; Givi & Motorola and all the rest. Then came the Trump hysteria that has already surpassed what Tom Clancy and Dan Browne could together come up with after a month of sweat lodge sessions and magic mushroom journeys. Just stand back from the perspective of 2014 and look in wonder at it all.
Right. I believe the Russian government made a huge mistake in February 2914: it showed weakness.
Who would have thought back in 2014 that we’d all be here?
I’m not a Spencer fan, by the way, I think he’s likely …a Russian agent
He kill for Putin?
Much as the Russian court was speaking French
It is a myth. The aristocracy were mostly fluent in French, but the primary language of the aristocracy (despite the myths) was Russian (in particular letters were for the most part written in Russian –
)
looks like he’s way more comfortable writing in French though:
This historical person – it is possible (but Russian language he knew). However, the majority of letters of the highest aristocracy, wrote in Russian (Isabel de Madariaga, “Russia in the Age of Catherine the Great” ).
You may recall the literature – among the highest aristocracy were brilliant writers and poets who wrote in Russian (For example, count A. K. Tolstoy http://artchallenge.me/painters/38/41.jpg)
, but no French-speaking writers and poets (at least famous)
So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?
Most Russians don’t think about it at all, since the issue for Russia is not relevant. But there is a prevailing opinion that the people of Central Asia/Islamic part of the Caucasus more stupid than the “European” white. But it’s not racist (it is not typical for Russia) , but the idea of the backwardness of culture in these regions (such ideas are freely discussed, and sometimes even “promoted” in movies). The Jews and Koreans in General opinion to the contrary are considered more intelligent.
Also widespread ideas about the imperfection of women’s intelligence. A week ago at my University was among the students a fun discussion on a topic the hypothetical ban of higher education for women. Girls (approximately half of the group) argued that intelligence is not dependent on sex, and the guys claimed that there are no women among the outstanding scientists, so no need to spend money on education for stupid by nature women.
Father of Manchester bomber posted in 2013 pro-Nusra message on FB: “”My greetings to Al Nusra, the victorious over disbelief”
https://twitter.com/HaraldDoornbos/status/867798158822170624
Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh
In 2013 Nusra and ISIS worked together.
From what I hear (living outside of Russia), I’m getting the impression that the Khrushchevki protests and Navalny’s work are very much connected.
Against the program of demolition of “Khrushchev” published many Pro-government journalists on the pages of Pro-government Newspapers and Magazines. For example https://www.vz.ru/society/2017/4/20/867157.html
Sure. It can be criticized, of course, nothing to it. I was talking about the protests and the general attitude towards government initiatives, as in: they are out to get us! somehow! But, again, I don't live there, it's just the impression I get from watching talk shows on youtube.Replies: @Pavel
Against the program of demolition of “Khrushchev” published many Pro-government journalists
Certainly, autocracy didn’t work so badly in Japan, Germany, Mainland China, or Singapore, but left Russia, Spain, and the Ottoman’s behind the curve.
In Russia and the Ottoman Empire autocracy (if you take a whole historical period) worked just fine. These two countries have achieved a lot, a lot more than allow their resources
The Ottoman empire totally failed at meeting the challenges of the modern age though...it fell hopelessly behind Western powers and in the end was dismembered. That's not really a success story.
In Russia and the Ottoman Empire autocracy (if you take a whole historical period) worked just fine. These two countries have achieved a lot, a lot more than allow their resources
The Ottoman empire totally failed at meeting the challenges of the modern age though...it fell hopelessly behind Western powers and in the end was dismembered. That's not really a success story.
In Russia and the Ottoman Empire autocracy (if you take a whole historical period) worked just fine. These two countries have achieved a lot, a lot more than allow their resources
The Ottoman empire totally failed at meeting the challenges of the modern age though…it fell hopelessly behind Western powers and in the end was dismembered. That’s not really a success story.
The Ottoman Empire should be compared with other Muslim States. Against this background, the history of Turkey is a success story
Modernization was much more successful in Russia before WW1, but at some point economic and technological modernization would also have necessitated some change in the political system and participation of wider segments of society
For a correct evaluation should consider the entire period of “autocracy” (15-19 century). In this case, the autocracy in Russia worked perfectly. Russian monarchs led a very impoverished, deserted, extremely backward cultural and technical society (the cause was climatic, geographical and religious reasons) . However, due to the rigid centralized rule, Russia was able to defeat the enemy who had many times more resources and to assert his own existence.
participation of wider segments of society
It’s hard to say. In Russia in 1914 was the Parliament, but this Parliament, in conditions of war did nothing good but only evil
That’s a smart move by Putin. Concern over global warming and environmentalism aren’t necessarily left-wing or liberal issues, of course the question remains what exactly should be done, but pure denialism is a stupid idea for right-wingers or conservatives.
Anyway, while I would probably have voted for Trump if I were American, I have to say this is another thing that makes him look like a major asshole (and the people who are cheering him on for this as well). Coupled with statements like “Selling all those weapons to Saudi-Arabia will be great for American jobs!” – at a time when Saudi-Arabia is causing what could turn out to be a major humanitarian catastrophe in Yemen – this would make it very easy to paint America First as selfish, immoral cynicism of the worst kind. If the Russians (or some other actor) ever decide to run a truly anti-American campaign, this would provide a lot of material (“Look at those immoral, materialist Americans…they don’t care if Bangladesh will be submerged because of global warming, as long as they can drive their gas-guzzling monster cars!”).
This is another good example of how the old ideas of what is left or right no longer are very meaningful. Draw a Venn diagram of who supports global warming, Muslims, mega corporations, mass third immigration and race denialism, the Venn diagram will basically be a one mega blob with very tiny fringes on the outside for the non overlapping parts. The people that believe in global warming are the globalists, the "global" part obviously being key to this.
Concern over global warming and environmentalism aren’t necessarily left-wing or liberal issues
My 2 basic reasons for supporting Trump (although as an ex-citizen obviously I couldn't vote) were as follows:
Anyway, while I would probably have voted for Trump if I were American, I have to say this is another thing that makes him look like a major asshole
global warming is a con - that's why they changed the name to "climate change"
pure denialism is a stupid idea for right-wingers or conservatives.
Honestly, it’s a shame that free speech is more restricted in Russia …than it is in the U.S.; indeed, people should be allowed to speak freely
About hereditary inequality of intelligence in Russia scientists can speak quite freely. Here Professor of Moscow State University lecture about hereditary inequality of different races
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4838cApI_I
Video Link
Warning: I am not a follower of this Professor is just an example of free speech on the topic of heredity
Dagestan, a Turkic region of Russia, seems to have an average IQ in the high 80s.
In Dagestan Turkic peoples are a minority
In Dagestan, the most numerous peoples speaking Northeast Caucasian languages
Are Tatars similar autosomatically to Cossacks? Or are the latter more Slav than Tatars?
Cossacks is estate in pre-revolutionary Russia which consisted of people of different nationalities. On pictures Tatars-nagabuchi which belonged to the estate of Cossacks.
Tatars are a few different peoples, with different (genetically) origin. Compare
Kazan Tatars:
I was kind to you above when I said that your opinion was 'flawed'. With this latest homespun salvo of yours. I'll just tell you like it really is - total, 100% BS! Your insinuation that those that speak some sort of Ukrainian dialect can more easily understand literary Russian better than literary Ukrainian is pure hogwash! Even young Galician immigrants speak perfect literary Ukrainian, and you'd be hard pressed to detect any regional variance, something that couldn't be said about their grandparents. If you really did some homework on the subject (instead of blurting out nonsensical ideas), you'd know that the vast majority of Ukrainians are bi-lingual (I don't know how much longer this situation will exist, as many younger Ukrainians are by-passing Russian for other European languages within their school curriculum).Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji, @Boris N
They speak dialects that they identify as ‘Ukrainian’ – dialects of Malorossia, and, to a degree, of Southern Russia in general.They do NOT speak official ‘Ukrainian’. They don’t understand a whole bunch of words in that language. Russian, they understand it much better.
I was kind to you above when I said that your opinion was ‘flawed’.
I’m touched by your kindness.
Your insinuation that those that speak some sort of Ukrainian dialect can more easily understand literary Russian better than literary Ukrainian is pure hogwash!
What I said was that a majority of people on the territory of the former state of Ukraine are more comfortable with Russian than with the official language, based on Galician dialect.
This is not particularly controversial, but you don’t need to trust me: just check out the Gallup study I linked above.
And that’s all there is to it; I don’t see what else we could chat about here. Oh, wait: I hear your boss, Mr Stets, at the Ukrainian Ministry of Truth resigned recently. Could you comment on that?
Official language is based on the speech of Poltava and created mostly by central and Eastern Ukrainian. Village-speak in central Ukraine resembles the standard language more than does the speech in Galician villages.
Ukraine are more comfortable with Russian than with the official language, based on Galician dialect.
That you write nonsense is indeed not controversial.
This is not particularly controversia
Gallup study claims 17% speak Ukrainian as a first language. The map on this article already contradicts this.
he Gallup study I linked above
So the IQ of these north Asian mongoloid groups above is among the lowest measured, more than a standard deviation below that of African-Americans.
How do you reconcile that with your theory that living in cold climates results in high IQ?
Do you seriously think that the testing of the hunters of the stone age, shows their genetically determined intelligence (and not cultural level)?
2 things wrong here, Anatoly.
Firstly, Tatars are not genetically Slavs(neither in terms of autosomal DNA, the most important aspect, or paternal/maternal haplogroups). Google “K15 genetic plot” in images or “Tatar PCA plot” to see just how far from Slavs they are. The Tatar/Russian difference is not solely a language one.
Secondly, no reason to speculate on Yakut IQ when we have modern Yakut IQ(there have also been studies done on Manchurian Evenks by Chinese researchers that go against these old Soviet numbers). Look up Vladimir S. Shibaev Yakut IQ, I’m surprised you don’t know about this study. He studied Yakut children(and ethnic Russians) from Sakha Republic, urban Yakuts had an IQ of 100, urban ethnic Russians(in Yakutsk) had an IQ of 101, rural Yakuts had an IQ of 100, rural ethnic Russians had an IQ of 97. The Chinese study had Evenks at 96(and various other northern nomadic Chinese ethnic groups at 100), then of course there’s the multiple very high sample recent studies on Mongolians that show the same.
Mongoloid(with the darker skinned, less sinodonty, diverged 15-20k ya Amerindians being an exception) IQ is rather stable from Siberia to Vietnam, with Han Chinese, Koreans, Japanese having a boost of around 5 from their extra civilizational selection. Central Asian and Indochina IQ can be explained by Middle-Eastern admixture in Central Asia(and high inbreeding rates) and Oceanian admixture in Indochina. I really don’t think these early 1900s more culturally biased tests the Soviets did are accurate. We can’t really get anything concrete from PISA either, Chita Oblast which does horribly is 90% ethnic Russian(descendants of Soviet era deportee criminals maybe?).
Yet, he is speaking in private in some room and not openly lecturing students or TV audience.
This interview to the public (not shooting by hidden camera)
About Limonov in 2004, even made a film – the plot focuses how a young Gopnik Limonov becomes a revolutionary in order to seduce a classmate-beauty in high school
Trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZQiF54beLc
Video Link
Interested in America can shoot a similar movie about Robert Spencer?
St. Petersburg is a really weird example of a huge city that “shouldn’t naturally be there” and exists mostly because of one man’s strong will that it exist.
The mouth of the Neva is the most convenient (in fact the only possible) place for a seaport linking the economic center of Russia with the world’s ocean trade. Before the advent of Railways, freight transport in the mainland were carried by the rivers. Tsar Peter understood this, and in 1704-1722 were built canal systems connecting the basin of the Neva and basins of the Volga. As a result, 70% of all International trade Russia went through Volga-Neva waterway in the 18th century.
For example iron from the Urals was carried by the rivers to St. Petersburg to sell to the English merchants 
This Saint Petersburg absolutely typical of the city at the mouth of the river, such as London. Rouen, Amsterdam, Antwerp, etc.
It’s amazing that it was built in the 18th, not the 12th century.
Such a town *was* built in the 12th century but it was a *Swedish* town and fortress called Landskrona
Fort (not tоwn) Landskrona was a failed attempt of the Swedes capture the mouth of the Neva. In 1300 the Swedes landed at the mouth of the Neva river and built a Fort, but in 1301, the Russian troops took the Fort by storm, and massacred the Swedes.
The Neva mouth remained effectively no man’s land for centuries after that because the Scandinavians were still superior on the sea and Novgorod could not have defended a coastal site against raids
Novgorod centuries owned these lands, but this lazy Republic could not build a fortress at the mouth of the Neva. Full bastards
Sweden eventually did annex the site in 1617…
and get rid of the indigenous population. In 1620, the Orthodox population (Russians, Karelians, etc.) accounted for 90% of the population. In 1650 the Orthodox population was 50% (other 50% Lutheran Finns resettled in these lands). In 1698, the Orthodox population was 15%, and 75% were the Lutherans – mostly Finns (Musayev “Political history of Ingermanland”). That is, the indigenous population fled from the Swedish yoke, and “cleansed” lands settled by Finns ( something that agitators from Lenin to Hitler have later found very useful here).
Tsar Peter did not take empty land at the Neva, he took a city (and had its inhabitants murdered or enslaved
This is an obvious exaggeration. Of course the war was fought in accordance with the “norms” of the time, but Finnish population on the future site of Petersburg was not subjected to deliberate extermination/expulsion. But due to the construction of St. Petersburg (and powerful influx of Russian population) Finns quickly became a minority in these lands.
I believe all them in toto fled to central Russia where they created a very strangely placed and unique diaspora of Orthodox Karelians near Tver (now mostly assimilated).
and get rid of the indigenous population. In 1620, the Orthodox population (Russians, Karelians, etc.) accounted for 90% of the population.
You know how this works: THEY always murder and massacre US; WE always just peacefully annex and peacefully assimilate THEM. Many would point a finger at Russians for such a way of thinking when actually this is rather a Western way of thinking PARTICULARLY when it is directed towards Russia. You know, those Asiatic Scythian-Mongolian barbarous beasts always have wanted to conquer the world, and others did nothing but defended themselves.
This is an obvious exaggeration.
Some Orthodoxes fled after 1617, some converted, some remained. This is nothing unusual:
The majority of the Orthodox population fled from Swedish reign.
“The Swedish policy of religious conversion, harsh taxation and competition for labour and taxpayers were the key issues in the political and social history of Ingria and Kexholm Province during the seventeenth century. …. The religious policy of the Swedish Government towards the Orthodox failed almost completely…Orthodox peasants simply preferred to desert to Russia rather than oppose these policies.” (Kujala, Antti Sweden’s Russian Lands, Ingria and Kexholm Province, 1617 – ca. 1670: The Interaction of the Crown with Its New Subjects )
Here is a map of the settlement of “Russian” Karel
(blue circled where Karelians moved from the territories occupied by the Swedes). Likely from these Karel, was the famous Alexander Suvorov.
But in occupied by the Swedes lands lived not only Karelian – the land of the future of Petersburg before 1617, was dominated by the Russian population (which was also “purged” by the Swedes).
Tsar Peter did not destroy the Finnic nature of the rural areas (which actually largely remained Finnic up to the revolution) but he did wipe out the urban population that was in the way of his plans.
Оf course nonsense. For Peter, the Finns (who lived on the lands of St. Petersburg) was not an “obstacle”, but of ordinary citizens, a source of taxes and recruits. But because of a powerful influx of Russian colonists , the small “urban” Finns and Swedes quickly become a minority.
In 1725 in St. Petersburg was approximately 40 thousand inhabitants, and in 1750 – 100 thousand people (pre-war population of Nien – 2 000 people)
In fact, the only person who ever brought west-Finn “colonists” to the Neva was Tsar Peter
This is an obvious false statement
“The crop failures related to the Little Ice Age as well as the tax increases and conscriptions ordered by King Gustav II Adolf and the ensuing regency regime, together with the attraction of the swidden lands in the east, on the other hand, drove thousands of Lutheran Finns in Viborg Karelia and Savo to migrate to Ingria and Kexholm Province. The Crown was neither able to prevent the Finnish peasants, farm hands and deserters from moving to the newly conquered eastern territories, freed from conscription, nor could it contain the migration of the Orthodox population from those same territories. After the war of 1656–1658, the population there consisted of Lutheran Finns everywhere, except in the Western parts of Ingria and the North-eastern fringe of Kexholm Province.” ( Kujala, Antti Sweden’s Russian Lands, Ingria and Kexholm Province, 1617 – ca. 1670: The Interaction of the Crown with Its New Subjects)
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/fsv/jgo/2016/00000064/00000004/art00002
“The Finns appeared on the territory of Ingria mainly after 1617, when these lands according to a result of the Stolbova peace Treaty was ceded to Sweden. A number of fin. settlers existed here before, since the 14th century, after the conclusion of Shlisselburg (Orehovica) peace Treaty. The main tributary of the fin. colonists on the conquered lands falls in the middle of 17th century, when the Swedish government began to carry out forced conversion to Lutheranism of local residents . This caused a mass Exodus of the Orthodox (Izhora, Voda, Rus. and Karel.) population to the Russian land. The empty lands were quickly settled by Finns-immigrants”
http://www.etnosy.ru/node/354
Are you aware of just how WIDE major Russian rivers tend to be, though? I think it’s no accident that Novgorod served in St. Petersburg’s role for centuries, despite being inland.
I know how wide major Russian rivers because I live in St. Petersburg. To Novgorod (trough shallow Volkhov http://s4.fotokto.ru/photo/full/245/2452078.jpg) could sails freely Viking drakars, but not ships of the 18th century. Even on the Neva sailing ships can to climb up the stream only to tow by rowing boats
It was a nicer place to live (not only does the climate feel better
???? Why? To Novgorod from St. Petersburg – two hours by the local train. The climate almost identical
but St. Petersburg has a mosquito problem to this day
There is no such problem
Exactly. These are not west-Finns. Those Protestant Karelians were ethnically the same as….. etc., etc.
Summary,
part 1: Before 1617 a lands of the Neva river basin belonged to Russia. In 1617 the Swedes came, the local Orthodox population was partially exterminated during the war, partially expelled thanks to the Swedish religious and economic policies. Instead of exterminated/expelled indigenous population settled Finns (Lutherans loyal to the Swedes).
part 2: In 1703 the Russians came back. Finns were partially exterminated during the war, partially become a minority in the lands that were re-settled by Russians. Of course it was a manifestation of “extreme brutality” of the Russian.
An ordinary Russian citizen was a serf.
Really? Perhaps for this reason, in the 17th century, the population of the border lands fled en masse from Sweden to Russia.
Tsar had no way of calming occupied land with a Finnish population except either extreme brutality (like Peter I)
So Tsar Peter held in subjection “old Finland” (purely Finnish lands of Karelian isthmus) by using “extreme brutality “? Weird. It seemed to me that the Russian administration rules this land without any problems.
There were actually some Swedish aristocrats who switched sides during the war against Peter I because they thought that by joining Russia they could get rid of these pesky limitations and just make peasants serfs.
Who is it?
The peace of 1617 ended a war in which Sweden was meddling in the Russian succession crisis. …. You are trying to paint Swedish war or occupation atrocities in areas that didn’t even have war or occupation and that were handed to Sweden in a deal.
It was (Swedish invasion 1611-1617) a full-scale war (in particular the famous Gustav-Adolf unsuccessfully besieged the city of Pskov: it was his first experience as a military chief). In this war the Orthodox Karelians fought fiercely against the Swedes. The Swedes captured Korela fortress after seven months of siege, when almost all defenders died. So areas of these lands have war and occupation
but not being allowed a church is hardly comparable to real atrocities where people die or get enslaved
During the Swedish invasion people died and became slaves
The report of the commandant of the Sumy Fort
«In the past, 1611, the year … the Swedish military people came ..they burnt the villages and massacred the people , and the other seized into slavery»
From petitions of the Saami (directed to the Russian authorities)
«…in the past, 1611, come the Swedes and many of the best people killed and captured and in captivity they died…»
«In the grave of Ivan Rokačču (Karelian peasant, hero of the guerrilla war against the Swedes) archaeologists have discovered the skeleton of men, and also two women’s and two children’s skeleton with traces of violent death»
And so on. In the Northern war, the Russian army in the same way dealt with the Finns.. The difference however is that after 1617 (Stolbovsky peace), the Russian population fled EN masse from the Swedish rule in Russia, but after 1722 (the Nystad peace) Finnish population lived peacefully under the Russian government (although the population had full opportunity to run in the Swedish Finland).