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The REAL Holocaust: the 1915 Armenian Genocide and Its Russophobic Origins
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“As a result of the Jewish lobby’s recommendations, the Young Turks government removed Armenians from Anatolia in 1915. Hence, the economy of the country was left in the hands of Jewish capital.” – Ekrem Buğra Ekinci of The Daily Sabah Turkish newspaper, October 13th 2017.

Johann von Bernstorff (German ambassador); “The way the Armenian problem was solved was hair-raising. I can still see in front of me Talaat’s cynical expression, when he emphasized that the Armenian question was solved.”[1]A., Bernstorff (2011). Memoirs of Count Bernstorff. Kessinger Publishing. ISBN 1-169-93525-7.

Einar af Wirsén (Swedish Diplomat) “When I kept on pestering him about the Armenian question, he once said with a smile: ‘What on earth do you want? The question is settled, there are no more Armenians'”.[2]Avedian, Vahagn (21 May 2008). “The Armenian Genocide 1915: From a Neutral Small State’s Perspective: Sweden” (PDF). Uppsala University. Retrieved 17 June 2016.

Henry Morgenthau (American Ambassador (He was Jewish)); “Whatever crimes the most perverted instincts of the human mind can devise, and whatever refinements of persecution and injustice the most debased imagination can conceive, became the daily misfortunes of this devoted people. I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared with the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915.”[3]Henry Morgenthau, Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story, Page 119, Blackmask Online

On May 30th 1915 Talaat Pasha issued the Tehcir Act, which on paper was a security measure the Turks put forth to prevent a Russian-Armenian revolt by forcibly relocating the nationals of Armenia to Mesopotamia and Syria.[4]Akçam, Taner (2006). A Shameful Act. New York: Holt & Co. pp. 165, 186–187. This was the story the Young Turks told the world to avoid and minimize any public disapproval or foreign resistance. The relocations involved disarmed Armenians being forcibly marched to camps in the inner deserts of Anatolia and Syria, and these camps were not stocked with necessary supplies for survival.[5]Mikaberidze, Alexander (2015). “Tehcir Law”. In Whitehorn, Alan. The Armenian Genocide: The Essential Reference Guide. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 1610696883. The properties of these people were confiscated and sold to new arrivals, the men were often singled out to be killed first, and the women were often enslaved and raped en masse.

The accusation of Russian-aligned rebellion was used as justification and cover. American Ambassador Henry Morgenthau frantically remarked;

“Have you received my 841? Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion.

Protests as well as threats are unavailing and probably incite the Ottoman government to more drastic measures as they are determined to disclaim responsibility for their absolute disregard of capitulations and I believe nothing short of actual force which obviously United States are not in a position to exert would adequately meet the situation.”[6]http://origins.osu.edu/milestones/april-2015-armeni...nocide

A confession is considered as valuable only if it contains some true and verifiable details of the crime the investigator did not know of. This rule of criminal investigation was observed in the controversial telegram transcriptions written in The memoirs of Naim Bey.[7]https://er.anca.org/akcam-the-authenticity-of-the-na...ams-2/

On March 25, 1915, Talaat states: “It is the duty of all of us to effect on the broadest lines the realisation of the noble project of wiping out the existence of the Armenians who have for centuries been constituting a barrier to the Empire’s progress in civilization.”[8]Naim Bey., . (1920). The memoirs of Naim Bey: Turkish official documents relating to the deportations and massacres of Armenians. London: Hodder and Stoughton.

What events led to these horrific genocide and near destruction of the Armenian people, and why are the Armenian people important for European history?

Did it happen, or didn’t it, and who was behind it?
Did it happen, or didn’t it, and who was behind it?

Armenians are an ethno-linguistic-religious group distinct from their surrounding neighbors. They have their own church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, which was founded in the 1st century CE, and became in 301 CE the first branch of Christianity to become a state religion. They have also their own alphabet and language which is classified as an independent branch of the Indo-European language family. The historical homeland of the Armenians sits north of the Fertile Crescent, a region of substantial importance to modern human evolution. Genetic and archaeological data suggest farmers expanding from this region during the Neolithic populated Europe and interacted/admixed with pre-existing hunter-gatherer populations.

Furthermore, Armenia’s location may have been important for the spread of Indo-European languages, since it is believed to encompass or be close to the Proto-Indo-European homeland (Anatolia or Pontic Steppe) from which the Indo-Europeans and their culture spread to Western Europe, Central Asia and India.[9]http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/02/26/armenians-have...veals/

The Holocaust of the Armenian people wasn’t simply stopped at the borders of Turkey; Ottoman troops by the Young Turks insistence had also invaded Persia. During this invasion Christian Armenians and Assyrians alike were slaughtered. In fact, approximately half of Persia’s Christian Assyrians alongside about four-fifths of the Christian Assyrian leadership were killed during this time by Turkish and Kurdish invaders.[10]Baumer, Church of the East, at 263. The Church of the East: An Illustrated History of Assyrian Christianity, Christoph Baumer, I.B. Tauris, 2006.

Two months after the (largely Jewish led) Bolshevik revolution the new Russian government began withdrawing Russian troops from the Caucasus. This withdrew the only ally the Armenians had and put their remaining people at risk of extinction. At this time the last refuge for these people was the small remaining unconquered land of historic Armenia centered around Mount Ararat.[11]http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/details/179324/

Mount Ararat is traditionally the Christian-accepted location of Noah’s Ark in the Book of Genesis. Armenia was the first Christian country in the world. The Armenian language is the most ancestral, oldest Indo-European Language left since the extinctions of its Indo-European predecessors Anatolian and Tocharian. It’s hard to overstate the ethnocultural significance in this event threatening complete extermination of the most ancestral Indo-European speakers and also the most ancestral Christians. Much of the Armenian highlands were lost; Western Armenia was renamed “Eastern Anatolia” by the invaders. With the survivors and refugees concentrated in Caucausia the impending invasion threatened complete annihilation.

The Christian leader Catholicos Gevorg V ordered Church Bells to peal for six days as all classes of Armenian people were called to take up arms with the women and children readying supplies and the entire survivors of the nation prepared for total war.[12]Bobelian, Michael (2009). Children of Armenia: A Forgotten Genocide and the Century-long Struggle for Justice. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 34. ISBN 1-4165-5725-3. The President of the Armenian assembly stated “If we are to perish, let us perish with honor.”[13]Akçam, T. (2006). A shameful act: The Armenian genocide and the question of Turkish responsibility. Macmillan.

In the battles of Sardarabad, alongside Abaran and Karakilisa, the outnumbered Armenians managed to defy the odds and fight off the Turkish invaders. Historian Christopher Walker remarked that with a loss at Sardarabad “it is perfectly possible that the word Armenia would have henceforth denoted only an antique geographical term.”[14]Walker, Christopher J. (1990). Armenia The Survival of a Nation, 2nd ed. New York: St. Martin’s Press. pp. 254–255. ISBN 0-7099-0210-7.

The Destruction of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire resulted by most estimates with 1.5 million of the 2 million Ottoman Armenians being exterminated.

The history of Armenia is intertwined with that of Europe and Russia especially. Russia had generally had an Armenian presence through its history but after the Russo-Persian wars in 1828 Russia annexed parts of the historical Armenian nation. Since that time Russia has generally defended the rights of Christian minorities in the Ottoman lands. Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov is perhaps the most visible example of a Russian Armenian given that he was born to an Armenian father.

But the Armenians had, for the most part, been very well integrated in the empire as well. Armenians were formerly dubbed the “loyal millet”.[15]Dadrian, Vahakn N. The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus. Oxford: Berghahn Books, 1995, p. 192. ISBN 1-57181-666-6 The Armenians opportunities in the region arguably increased with the transition from Greek Byzantine rule to Ottoman rule. Armenian villages traditionally had a high degree of autonomy as well. Any sort of separatist nationalism would seem unviable, and the main Armenian conflicts with the Ottoman Muslims were based about regional autonomy and protection from bandits. The primary Armenian political organizations with public protests were advocates pushing for autonomy such as the 1890’s Kum Kapu demonstration.[16]“Fighting In Constantinople.; The Armenian Patriarch Mobbed – Soldiers And Rioters Killed”. New York Times. 29 July 1890. These requests were quite reasonable as the Armenians had suffered various attacks and murders from Muslim Kurds and other bandits who, by the Ottoman empires laws, held legal superiority in court.

During this time the Sultan Abdul Hamid II attempted to shed the “sick man of Europe” label his failing Ottoman Empire had by encouraging a modernization of the Empire, which required a stronger and more centralized government role in citizens affairs. Abdul Hamid II was attacked in the British press as the “Red Sultan” for various atrocities committed against minorities such as Armenians and for all intents and purposes was the perfect archetype of a Tyrant.[17]“Abdulhamid II | biography – Ottoman sultan”. Retrieved 2015-09-29.

The Young Turks who sought to overthrow him by contrast were revolutionaries. They shouted their slogans of “Hürriyet, Musavat , Uhuvvet” inspired from the French “Liberté, égalité, fraternité” meaning “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity”. Turkish ethnicity is often described as a “melting pot” of all Anatolian people ranging from the gene pools of the Balkans, Anatolia, and parts of Asia.”[18]The Ottoman Peoples and The End of Empire by Justin McCarthy (2007), p. 200-205 The Young Turks were also rationalists following a materialist ideologies like positivism which they prioritized over religion; The Islamic authorities the Ulama even denounced them as “trying to change Islam into another form and create a new religion while calling it Islam”.[19]Hanioğlu, M. Şükrü, The Political Ideas of the Young Turks.

The Ottoman Empire was historically a place where Jews could live without fear of persecution according to one of the Erdogan aligned newspaper the Daily Sabah.[20]http://archive.is/LHJkHIndeed this tolerance extended into the post-Sultan era of the Young Turks, as the Encyclopedia Judaica noted that various Zionist groups were hopeful in 1908 for opportunities to press their interests; “the absence of antisemitism in Turkey made the idea [Jewish settlement in Palestine] possible”.[21]Roth, C. (Ed.). (1972). Encyclopaedia Judaica (Vol. 15). Encyclopaedia Judaica. P. 544 Talaat specifically was very open to these ideas;

“Four years later Talaat even propagated the fantastic idea of a ‘Muslim-Jewish Alliance.’ The Balkan wars had plunged the Ottoman Empire into financial ruin and Talaat, who became a key member of the CUP’s ruling triumvirate following the military coup of January 1913, expected the Zionists to link the empire with the fabulous wealth of ‘world Jewry.'”[22]E. Karsh, Empires of the Sand: The Struggle for Mastery in the Middle East, 1789-1923.

Knowing this background of the states historical pluralism, alongside the progressive and secular motto of the new government and its noted tolerance of Jewish minorities, one has to ask how a genocide could have even been possible. How could such a progressive government proceed to horrifically genocide many of the states indigenous Christian populations?

If we take a closer look at the killings we come across many disturbing disparities in the treatment of these minority groups. After all in the Great fire of Smyrna catastrophe of 1922 the Christian Armenian and Christian Greek sections of the city were destroyed while the Jewish and Turkish sections were not.[23]Clogg, p. 98. In 1918, three years after the passing of the Tehcir law, Talaat Pasha made a Turkish Balfour declaration equivalent expressing support for the establishment of Jewish Palestine.[24]https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2017/12/the-ottoman...ation/ Clearly it is a strange sort of nationalism the Western world is unfamiliar with when the Jewish minorities are spared.

The Armenian Holocaust was not only unexpected by the victims but in fact it is still to this day denied by the perpetrator state Turkey. And until recently, the execution of the genocide itself was only known by third party observers, with the state of Turkey claiming the genocide was really just a civil war. The only direct evidence of intentional genocide were in translated telegrams written in the 1921 published The Memoirs of Naim Bey which lost much of the source material telegrams.

In October 2016 however Prof. Taner Akçam found archived Ottoman telegrams confirming the legitimacy of various events from The Memoirs of Naim Bey and confirming that they were not mere fabrications for propaganda.[25]http://archive.is/8gpWZ

This legitimacy was confirmed further when the “smoking gun” of April 2017 was discovered, an original telegram directly inquiring over the murder of Armenians. The official Young Turks government telegram asks directly if the deported Armenians are being killed or “merely sent off and deported”.

Are the Armenians who were deported from there being liquidated? Are the troublesome individuals whom you have reported as having been exiled and expelled been eliminated or merely sent off and deported? Please report honestly.”[26]http://archive.is/dzIvs

This is a telegram with an Ottoman letterhead and with the Ottoman coding system acquired by an Armenian Catholic priest, Krikor Guerguerian. He held the evidence in a private archive wherein it was secured by his nephew. The issue being re-raised has re-opened conflicts between Turkey and the international community. During the Western progressive-leftist worlds drama over President Donald Trumps Holocaust remembrance statement of “11 million”, an angry and emotional response from the Jewish Telegraph Agency made some very interesting admissions on the Jewish Holocausts history.[27]http://archive.is/ZINFw

The “5 million” has driven Holocaust historians to distraction ever since Wiesenthal started to peddle it in the 1970s. Wiesenthal told the Washington Post in 1979, “I have sought with Jewish leaders not to talk about 6 million Jewish dead, but rather about 11 million civilians dead, including 6 million Jews…”

I said to him, ‘Simon, you are telling a lie,’” Bauer recalled in an interview Tuesday. “He said, ‘Sometimes you need to do that to get the results for things you think are essential.’”

Bauer and other historians who knew Wiesenthal said the Nazi hunter told them that he chose the 5 million number carefully: He wanted a number large enough to attract the attention of non-Jews who might not otherwise care about Jewish suffering, but not larger than the actual number of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, 6 million.

With the newly opened international drama of the Armenian Holocaust denying Turkish government, we can find some interesting admissions of the origins of the Young Turks revolution. The Young Turks Revolution broke out in Salonica. Salonica was the largest Jewish city in the world at this time with Jewish people constituting over half the population. According to a prominent Turkish Newspaper in a very recent article on October 13th 2017;[28]http://archive.is/LHJkH

“The most prominent financier and mentor of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), which seized the government in 1908, was a Jewish banker of Italian origin from Salonica, Emmanuel Carasso. When Greeks, who had held a privileged status up until then, fell into disfavor after the Constantinople massacre of 1821 targeting Greeks, Jews were hoping for a second chance.

However, with their art facilities scattered around Anatolia, Armenians came in first thanks to their capital surplus. As a result of the Jewish lobby’s recommendations, the Young Turks government removed Armenians from Anatolia in 1915. Hence, the economy of the country was left in the hands of Jewish capital.

Carasso, who was a part of the committee that informed Abdülhamid II of his dethronement, was the closest confidant of Talat Pasha, the figure responsible for the deportation law. In fact, when Talat Pasha escaped abroad in 1918, he entrusted his entire estate to Carasso. To take an active role in the foundation of the Ankara government, Carasso returned to his homeland before his death.”

The allegations of the Armenian Holocaust denying Erdogan-aligned newspaper are very important and need to be explored in depth, as these allegations may help to uncover background historical interactions between Jewish groups and European/Christian groups in a multicultural environment.

In his book Banality of Indifference, Yair Auron alleges that the Jewish citizens of Turkey during this time were apathetic to the murdered Armenians. Regarding the attitude of the Jews towards the Armenians, he wrote:

“A slight grimace on their lips, a short heartfelt sigh, and nothing more. The Armenians are not Jews, and according to folk tradition the Armenians are nothing more than Amaleks! Amaleks? We would give them help? To whom? To Amaleks? Heaven forbid!”[29]Ya’ir Oron, The Banality of Indifference:Zionism and the Armenian Genocide, Transaction Publishers, London, 2002, p.126.

During the 1922 great fire of Smyrna, in which the Greek and Armenian portions of the city were burned down while the Turkish and Jewish sections were spared, the accounts of Jewish teachers alleged that either the Greeks or Armenians started the fire themselves.[30]The Post Magazine and Insurance Monitor, Volume 85, Issue 2 (1924), Buckley Press,[2] p. 2153

This apathetic and dismissive attitude has even been shown in the Jewish “Anti-defamation league” which as recently as 2007 campaigned against the American governments recognition of the Armenian Holocaust.

Foxman finally acknowledged the Armenian Genocide in his remarks. It was an encouraging development given that ADL’s only formal statement on the genocide is worded in such a way as to actually circumvent the intent required for a finding of genocide by the UN Genocide Convention.”[31]https://archive.is/WS7eA

That statement, issued in 2007, said that the “consequences” of the Turkish massacres of Armenians were “tantamount” to genocide, implying it was not a planned extermination. This statement was widely censured, but calls for an unambiguous confirmation were rebuffed by ADL.”

It needs to be noted here that the American ambassador to Turkey Henry Morgenthau was himself a Jew, and quickly became of the fiercest advocates for recognition of this genocide, and even demanded American intervention to protect the Armenian victims. But of course exceptions don’t break the rule.

The post-WW2 world has served to served to center all discussions of prejudice on nomadic minority ethnic groups. The topic is very well studied with any and all possible ethnic and political roots examined. By contrast, prejudice and oppression of Indo-European nationalities and their culture or religious practices are not widely discussed. While these events are minimized in the social/academic spheres of the Western world, Christophobia and Europhobia have not only happened historically but continue to happen today.

This lack of study for this sort of prejudice is very problematic for the modern “multicultural world” especially as anti-European/Christian prejudices are increasingly apparent and ignored by the mainstream media/academia.

This lack of study needs to be adequately addressed. The future and survival of European Christendom is depending on it.

Notes

[1] A., Bernstorff (2011). Memoirs of Count Bernstorff. Kessinger Publishing. ISBN 1-169-93525-7.

[2] Avedian, Vahagn (21 May 2008). “The Armenian Genocide 1915: From a Neutral Small State’s Perspective: Sweden” (PDF). Uppsala University. Retrieved 17 June 2016.

[3] Henry Morgenthau, Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story, Page 119, Blackmask Online

[4] Akçam, Taner (2006). A Shameful Act. New York: Holt & Co. pp. 165, 186–187.

[5] Mikaberidze, Alexander (2015). “Tehcir Law”. In Whitehorn, Alan. The Armenian Genocide: The Essential Reference Guide. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 1610696883.

[6] http://origins.osu.edu/milestones/april-2015-armenian-genocide

[7] https://er.anca.org/akcam-the-authenticity-of-the-naim-efendi-memoirs-and-talat-pasha-telegrams-2/

[8] Naim Bey., . (1920). The memoirs of Naim Bey: Turkish official documents relating to the deportations and massacres of Armenians. London: Hodder and Stoughton.

[9] http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/02/26/armenians-have-a-high-genetic-affinity-to-ancient-europeans-new-study-reveals/

[10] Baumer, Church of the East, at 263. The Church of the East: An Illustrated History of Assyrian Christianity, Christoph Baumer, I.B. Tauris, 2006.

[11] http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/details/179324/

[12] Bobelian, Michael (2009). Children of Armenia: A Forgotten Genocide and the Century-long Struggle for Justice. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 34. ISBN 1-4165-5725-3.

[13] Akçam, T. (2006). A shameful act: The Armenian genocide and the question of Turkish responsibility. Macmillan.

[14] Walker, Christopher J. (1990). Armenia The Survival of a Nation, 2nd ed. New York: St. Martin’s Press. pp. 254–255. ISBN 0-7099-0210-7.

[15] Dadrian, Vahakn N. The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus. Oxford: Berghahn Books, 1995, p. 192. ISBN 1-57181-666-6

[16] “Fighting In Constantinople.; The Armenian Patriarch Mobbed – Soldiers And Rioters Killed”. New York Times. 29 July 1890.

[17] “Abdulhamid II | biography – Ottoman sultan”. Retrieved 2015-09-29.

[18] The Ottoman Peoples and The End of Empire by Justin McCarthy (2007), p. 200-205

[19] Hanioğlu, M. Şükrü, The Political Ideas of the Young Turks.

[20] http://archive.is/LHJkH

[21] Roth, C. (Ed.). (1972). Encyclopaedia Judaica (Vol. 15). Encyclopaedia Judaica. P. 544

[22] E. Karsh, Empires of the Sand: The Struggle for Mastery in the Middle East, 1789-1923.

[23] Clogg, p. 98.

[24] https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2017/12/the-ottoman-balfour-declaration/

[25] http://archive.is/8gpWZ

[26] http://archive.is/dzIvs

[27] http://archive.is/ZINFw

[28] http://archive.is/LHJkH

[29] Ya’ir Oron, The Banality of Indifference:Zionism and the Armenian Genocide, Transaction Publishers, London, 2002, p.126.

[30] The Post Magazine and Insurance Monitor, Volume 85, Issue 2 (1924), Buckley Press,[2] p. 2153

[31] https://archive.is/WS7eA

(Republished from Russia Insider by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: History • Tags: Armenian Genocide, Armenians, Jews 
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  1. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:

    Interesting how Henry Morgenthau Sr. (Diplomat) was against the massacre of the Armenians in 1915 but his son (Roosevelt’s Treasury Secretary) at one point in summer 1944 suggested to Roosevelt that the top 50 or 100 German “arch-criminals” should be shot upon capture. He changed his mind and by early 1945 proposed formal trials. The son was also the architect of the notorious “Morgenthau Plan”.

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Jake
  2. Lo says:

    From the image used to the citations, pure propaganda piece. There is not a single neutral source used (apart from a couple of irrelevant sources added to pad citations to give the impression of a scientific article), all sources are either Armenian or pro-Armenian. How about citing McCarthy, Lowry, Shaw, Bernard Lewis or similar? You know, actual experts on the Ottoman history and Ottoman population statistics? Oh, right, all say there was no Armenian genocide. By the way, Taner Akcam is a communist who escaped jail and found refuge in Dadrian (more like Dadrian found a useful tool), he is a typical far left ideologue rather than a scholar, and Armenian issue is his way of getting his revenge. So, while trying to appease right-wing readers by blaming Jews in the article, you have no issues using a radical left source to further your propaganda piece. Which makes you at least intellectually dishonest, or not as you are probably not interested in neither intellectualism nor honesty as shown by your list of citations.

    I will touch other problems later. Not to respond author, as he is not interested in truth, but to inform readers who may not know enough about this issue.

  3. Al Liguori says: • Website

    The Armenian genocide is yet another instance of malevolent “chameleon” Jews. The Young “Turks” were Jews and crypto-Jews, Dönmeh.… the House of Saud sultans are also crypto-Jews, Dönmeh.… Wahhabism was also founded by crypto-Jews, Dönmeh

    • Talaat Pasha: A “Dönmeh” Jew. Interior Minister of Turkey during WW I. Chief architect of the Armenian Holocaust.
    • Djavid Bey: “Dönmeh” Jew. Talaat’s Finance Minister.
    • Messim Russo: Assistant to Djavid Bey.
    • Refik Bey: Editor of Young Turk newspaper Revolutionary Press; Prime Minister of Turkey in 1939.
    • Emanuel Qrasow: Jewish propagandist for The Jewish Young Turks.
    • Vladimir Jabotinsky: Yes, that Jabotinsky! Zionist, Russian Bolshevik who moved to Turkey in 1908. Editor of the newspaper Young Turk.
    • Alexander Helphand: Liaison of the Rothschilds. Editor of The Turkish Homeland.
    • Mustafa Kemal Attaturk: A Jew of Sephardic origin. Attaturk attended the Jewish Elementary school known as the Semsi Effendi School run by the Jew Simon Zvi.

    The Dönmeh: The Middle East’s Most Whispered Secret (Parts I & II)
    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/10/25/the-doenmeh-the-middle-easts-most-whispered-secret-part-i.html
    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/10/26/the-doenmeh-the-middle-easts-most-whispered-secret-part-ii.html

  4. Lo says:
    @anonymous

    That is because Morgenthau wanted to influence the American public to support the war against Ottomans (and thus Germans, as Ottomans were allied with Germany). It is not to say he didn’t hate Turks, he did (or people who contributed to his propaganda piece did, his helpers were Armenians when he served in Turkey), as his book has pretty hateful descriptions regarding Turks even for the standards of the early 20th century.

    • Replies: @anon
  5. Lo says:
    @Al Liguori

    No, this is yet more nonsense. None of these people you named is a Donmeh except for Djavid Bey, and that is not a secret. There were a few Jews among Young Turks, but so were Armenians, Greeks, and others. What authors like above aren’t aware of is that “Young Turks” were not all Turks, in fact, they didn’t even call themselves “Young Turks,” that is a name given by Western press. Their party’s name literally translates as Union and Progress, they were a bunch of Ottomans who were against absolute monarchy.

    And Wahhabis are Donmeh? Well, stop chewing too much khat. Wahhabis are as Arab as it can get, which explains their inability to interpret words written in their mother tongue.

  6. anonymous1963 [AKA "anon19"] says:

    Here in the clown country of Canada about 400 Indian women have disappeared “murdered or missing” over a period of about sixty years and we are told it was a “genocide”. The mind boggles…

    • Replies: @Alden
  7. @Lo

    Does a ‘right wing’ person using a ‘left wing’ source imply dishonesty? Do you imply truth is delineated to one side only, and using the other side’s information is heresy? How do you delineate the delineation?

    (Or could it be, that the author is not biased by ideological leanings, so uses whatever data they consider credible?)

  8. Wally says:

    Up front – I have not invested much time & effort in examining the alleged Armenian genocide. Though I must say that what I’ve seen presented as evidence is extremely weak, the above article included.

    I’m quite willing to be educated, but given the text of this article I have basic questions.

    It was stated:
    The Destruction of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire resulted by most estimates with 1.5 million of the 2 million Ottoman Armenians being exterminated.”

    – What “estimates”?
    Who made them?
    What was the basis for these “estimates”?

    – How were they supposedly exterminated?

    – Where were they supposedly exterminated?
    Separately? In mass executions?

    – Where are the human remains of the alleged 1.5M ?
    That’s a of lot bodies to bury. See here for US city populations in that number range.
    http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/
    Imagine claiming that any of those city populations were ‘murdered’ and what would be required as proof.

    – ‘Is there more than just a telegram which simply asked if they were being killed, or anything more than the notorious shyster Morgenthau and his personal assertions?

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @romar
  9. Anonymous [AKA "good start Mr. Quinn"] says:

    Mr. Quinn

    I read your article The REAL Holocaust: The 1915 Armenian Genocide and Its Russophobic Origins, in the unz review. Your article is well researched, balanced, well referenced and excellent summary of the Armenian Holocaust. Yes it is the only REAL Holocaust of the last 150 years, though I so wish that it never happened and let jews keep their monopoly on the “holocaust industry”. I am not a historian however I know the essence and essential parameters/objectives of the Genocide of Armenians ( Armenian Genocide is misleading it has connotation as if the Armenians committed a genocide, the correct expression shall be The Genocide of Armenians and my comments complete the “by who” part ) and I am not sure if it has Russophobic origins, though the russians/soviets and the WHOLE WORLD is responsible for it. I would like to make the following remarks regarding the subject of the Genocide of Armenians. It did not start in 1915. It started around 1896 during the reign of sultan abdul hamid II ( doesn’t deserve capitalization), and it continues to this day as turkey continues the occupation of our Western Armenia, has not made reparations, and restitutions, we Armenians are scattered unwillingly around the world and are daily dying/perishing through assimilation, we are subject to daily discrimination and humiliation just to make a living, and we are still forced to live outside our homeland United Armenia (Western and Eastern). Most Armenians know that the major planners, funders and managers of the Final Solution part/period 1915 of the Genocide of Armenians by the Committee of the Union and Progress , (the misnomered “Young Turks” who executed “regime change” and toppled sultan hamid II were jewish and mainly from Salonica. talaat, jemal, enver, behaeddin shakir and many more were either jewish, or “donme” meaning jews but superficially converted to turk/muslim. They did this by “proxy” and using the turks, the kurds and others, who after the physical extermination of the Armenians confiscated, looted, pillaged their properties and belongings…so since the bolshevik revolution and communism was also a jewish planned, funded, managed and executed plan, in that context your saying ” it has russophobic origins” is correct since the planners and the plan(s) are of same origin/design/purpose/objective. My definition and the correct legal definition of Genocide should be this very basic simple criterion: when a people or population or part of a people/race are exterminated/massacred ( call it what you want) on their Historic Land that’s Genocide, because you’re exterminating the tree at/and its root, the people in their land. Massacres/Extermination in any other location outside a people’s Historic Land though very reprehensible, great crime of immense magnitude and consequences, shall not be called/considered Genocide/Holocaust. For example if people X living in country G, no matter how few or how many millions are wholly or partly exterminated by the government(s) of that country, it is an act of great crime/calamity but shall not be called Genocide because they are not in their Historic Land. In that context I am saying and unfortunately the Genocide of Armenians is the only REAL Genocide of the last 150 years or may be the only one in the history of humankind. Though good books/publications on the Genocide of Armenians are increasing every month, please consider the following books for your future perusal: 1. The Armenian Genocide by Raymond Kevorkian. 2. and the blockbuster Armenians in ottoman turkey, 1914. a geographic and demographic gazetteer. Sarkis. Y. Karayan. this is a monumental/epical work. Late Mr. Karayan spent 20+ years doing painstaking research of every town, village, community, city in turkey where Armenians lived/existed as of 1914 perusing Armenian and many other communal/governmental/religious etc.. sources, baptism/death/anything and everything he could locate. He recorded the GPS co-ordinates of each of those locations, because after the Genocide of Armenians, successive turkish governments erased/changed the names of those locations or combined various localities together to obfuscate/erase facts of Armenian presence there, and he counted/added the number of Armenians living in turkey in 1914 to be greater than 2.5 million and since after the Genocide of Armenians, there were only a few hundred thousand? survivors, he thus PROVED that MORE THAN 2 Million Armenians perished by the people/plan/funding/managing of Carasso and his compadres…And NO even though turks and kurds acted by proxy they are equally guilty criminals and accountable.

  10. Seraphim says:
    @Lo

    Now we have Turkish propaganda.
    What about the Hamidian massacres 1894-96?

  11. A.R. says:
    @Lo

    Very true. Unfortunately most people swallow this story the same way they swallow ( or used to swallow ) the jewish Holocaust story. It does not take much objective scrutinizing of the “official facts” to realize it is mostly propaganda, lies and exaggerations…
    This Armenian genocide narrative is, as the jewish one, driven and pushed by lobbies and special interest groups.
    Appealing to christian solidarity makes sure it is successful in large parts of the dumbed down western world.
    However it is not easy to convince people to even try to study this issue without bias.
    Nice to see you refering to some good people though. McCarthy, Lowry etc. are good sources for persons who want to seek out some true information concerning this issue.
    Expect to be attacked, Lo. A lot of people are emotionally invested in the genocide narrative.
    But I guess you will know this quite well yourself…

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Twodees Partain
  12. Anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:

    In fact, approximately half of Persia’s Christian Assyrians alongside about four-fifths of the Christian Assyrian leadership were killing during this time by Turkish and Kurdish invaders.[10]

    killed

  13. TKK says:
    @Lo

    Agreed. This is laughable. It’s ludicrous.

    Having spent many months in Turkey, over the course of years, the arrogant Ottomans would be shocked to discover the lowly Jew was running the show pre WWII. Indeed in WW One.

    To bootstrap the Armenian pogrom to some Jews influence is cataclysmically absurd.

    They were powerless then, tolerated under Ataturk if they were meek and barely avoid persecution under Erdogan, now leaving in droves.

    The beautiful neighborhood of Beyoglu in Istanbul has amazing homes empty due to the small Jewish population fleeing as Erdogan becomes more unhinged in his desire to establish a Muslim Caliphate and murder Kurds.

    In essence, the author is holding the brutal Ottoman Empire blameless and indicting Jews for Ottoman centuries of conquest and atrocities.

    The Turks have never licked any Jewish boots. I’d love to see this author publish this piece ( attempt) in the Hurriyet.

    His dungeon cell would be a respite from his foot beating sessions while strung up like a ham.

  14. Half-Jap says:
    @Lo

    Agreed.
    As an attorney myself, we are required to disclose even the most adverse of evidence/case law but argue why it is irrelevant, weak, or mitigated by other considerations. Same with making a good argument. This article is unfortunately uninterested in doing any of this, leaving it unconvincing to those who understand how establishing anything as true or false, neither or impossible to verify.
    Bringing up one weak but sensational claim to cast shade on another similar one and the people claiming (and profiting from) it as true is ineffective argument.

    • Agree: Lo
  15. Again. Largely Jews led bolsheviks. Are these authors hatched from same egg to spew same stale lies? Also, in multi ethnic Russian empire did not Jews have right to participate in revolution like Russians, Armenians,, Georgians, latvians, ukranians and so on? Russian revolution happened and was so violent because it had deep roots and causes in previous Russian history. Emotions and anger on such scale cannot arise due to someone deciding to make revolution.. the author is basically illiterate in such matters. Should read Lenin definitions of revolutionary situation and what it means.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  16. @Lo

    How about citing McCarthy…

    You got a problem with him? Why?

    There is not a single neutral source used …

    You failed to use any sources at all.

    • LOL: Cowboy
    • Replies: @Lo
  17. j2 says:

    Just not to forget who the Young Turks were, I copied this text from a Masonic site:

    “Thierry Zarcone argues that, to the east, Freemasonry and para-Masonic organizations that merged Sufism, politics, and Masonry played a critical role in the 1905-1907 Iranian Constitutional Revolution. And, of course, most prominent was the role accorded to Freemasons in the Young Turk revolution of 1908, as well as the founding leadership of the Committee for Union and Progress (CUP). Four Salonikan lodges in particular played an instrumental role in supporting the revolution – Loge Macedonia Risorta (Grand Orient d’Italie), Veritas (Grand Orient de France), Labor et Lux (Grand Orient d’Italie), and Perseverencia (Grande Oriente Espa?ol).

    It has been suggested that CUP involvement with Freemasonry in Salonika was only instrumentally aimed at evading the Ottoman police (who were barred from penetrating European organizations), but there was clearly an overlap between the groups in political, philosophical and social aims. The slogan of the revolution (“Liberty, Equality, Fraternity”) was the slogan of Freemasonry as well as the CUP, and the crossover was not incidental. A member of the then-defunct lodge L’toile du Bosphore wrote from Constantinople that “all the Ottoman youth carry a ribbon on his [sic] chest with our slogan (Liberty-Equality-Fraternity) written in French, and the army in revolution in Macedonia plays the Marsellaise.” Just two months after the Young Turk revolution, the annual assembly of the Grand Orient de France in Paris included greetings and congratulations to “Brother Masons” within the CUP and throughout the Ottoman Empire, articulating their support for the confluence of Freemasonic and Young Turk ideals and goals. ”

    As the name Young Turks tells, it was a local variant of Mazzini’s Young Europe, Masonic.These guys decided to join the WWI on Germany’s side, though there was no gain to be expected to Turkey, and they lost Palestine, where the homeland was created.

  18. Sean says:

    Whether Mustafa Kemal Attaturk was Jewish or not, he articulated the interests of Turkey. Armenians would have done well to take Russian promises of support with a pinch of salt. The current very different ideology in power in Ankara is no more a friend of Russia than the Young Turks were. Russia and Turkey are natural enemies, and as such they try and interfere in each others’ internal affairs on the pretext of protecting minorities , which is the most commonly adopted tactic for a large power trying to exert overlordship. Obviously in for former Ottoman territories the British used protection of Jews as a pretext to control the new Balkan states. That does not mean really Britain cared about Jews.

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    , @Lo
  19. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:

    I would like to have learned more about this topic. However, the article lacks structure, is incoherent to those without prior knowledge, and wasn’t even proofread to eliminate several apparent errors.

    Mr. Unz has said that pieces haven’t been published because they needed more work. How, then, could this one not only make the cut, but be chosen as a Featured Article?

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @iffen
    , @Anonymous
  20. mcohen says:

    When the saints go marching do you want to be in that number.The ottoman turks knew a thing or two about iron fist rule.

    Peace

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  21. Cowboy [AKA "Hoot"] says:
    @Al Liguori

    In “The Dönmeh: The Middle East’s Most Whispered Secret” Madsen writes:

    At the outset of World War I, a Jewish British officer from India, David Shakespeare, met with Ibn Saud in Riyadh and later led a Saudi army that defeated a tribe opposed to Ibn Saud. In 1915, Ibn Saud met with the British envoy to the Gulf region, Bracey Cocas. Cocas made the following offer to Ibn Saud: “I think this is a guarantee for your endurance as it is in the interest of Britain that the Jews have a homeland and existence, and Britain’s interests are, by all means, in your interest.” Ibn Saud, the descendant of Dönmeh from Basra, responded: “Yes, if my acknowledgement means so much to you, I acknowledge thousand times granting a homeland to the Jews in Palestine or other than Palestine.”

    More proof that WWI was just World War One for Greater Israel.

    Madsen also writes:

    Erdogan’s desire to set the historical record straight by restoring history purged by the Kemalists and Dönmeh has earned him vitriolic statements from Israel’s government that he is a neo-Ottomanist who is intent on forming an alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in the Arab countries. Clearly, the Dönmeh and their Zionist brethren in Israel and elsewhere are worried about Dönmeh and Zionist historical revisionism, including their role in the Armenian and Assyrian genocide, and their genocide denial being exposed.

    Madsen says that there is a struggle between Donmeh run Middle East and the other ME countries. He thinks Erdogan and Muburak were anti-Donmeh reformists. When looked at through this prism, there are a couple of recent events that help define how bizarre this all is:

    1. The Assassination of Andrei Karlov. . This thing was completely surreal and highly Masonic. I would bet big that this is Donmeh related.

    2. The attempted Coup in Turkey

    3. Mohammed Morsi being poisoned and murdered while writhing in agony in a glass cage in front of the court. This looks like a Donmeh style secret society hit job, delivered as a message to all knowers. Kind of like that Isaac Kappy hit on Route 66.

    • Replies: @j2
  22. Sean says:
    @anonymous

    It is loosely argued, but coherent I think. You can find minor errors that got past proofreading and fact checking in any book, no matter how highly regarded. There is always room for improvement though.

  23. Wogs killing Wogs. No business or responsibility of the West.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Alden
  24. iffen says:
    @anonymous

    How, then, could this one not only make the cut, but be chosen as a Featured Article?

    Maybe because it blames (((them))) for the Armenian massacre.

    The REAL in the title gives it away from the get-go.

  25. According to American writer Christopher Jon Bjerkness (himself one quarter Jewish due to a Jewish maternal grandfather) the “Young Turks” were crypto-Jews of the pseudo-Islamic Dönmeh variety, descendants of the followers of the failed Jewish “messiah” Sabbatai Zevi (1626-1676) who converted to Islam in order to escape persecution, but kept their Jewish identity and belief secretly alive. These crypto-Jews tried to secularize the Turkish empire and genocide the Armenians whom they considered as their competitors. Attatürk himself was also a Dönmeh. You can read Bjerkness’ 575 pages long book here : https://Archive.org/…/ChristopherJonBjerknessTheJewishGenocideOfArmenianChristian…

    For a critique of Bjerkness’ book, see : The Outrageous Claim of Christopher Jon Bjerkness
    https://armenianweekly.com/…/jacobs-the-outrageous-claim-of-chr…

    It would take a deep study to answer the question wether the Armenian genocide was really a Jewish conspiracy, but given the Jewish role in the Russian revolution, we should be open to the possibility. Suspiciously enough, in the US the ADL is one of the fiercest opponents of recognizing the Armenian Genocide…

    • Replies: @j2
    , @Wally
  26. j2 says:
    @Cowboy

    “This thing was completely surreal and highly Masonic. I would bet big that this is Donmeh related. ”

    Many members of Donmeh were Masons. The Masonry in the Ottoman empire was Mizraim Freemasonry, the revolutionary form of French and Italian Grand Lodges, mixing in politics and trying to create Israel.

  27. AaronB says:

    Of course Jews are responsible for the Armenian genocide!

    We need an article to tell us this?

    I am in the process of writing an article on how the Spanish conquest of the Aztec empire, as well as the American decimation of the Indians, were Jewish driven efforts to assist their international trade.

    I will submit it to unz.com when finished.

    A good anthropologist friend of mine currently doing research on primitive tribes in the Amazon, reliably informs me that Jewish agents are the main driving force between local tribal conflict, because Jews want to be the sole suppliers of bat dung and seashells to the natives.

    Jews are also hoping to recruit and use these Amazonian tribes in their war against American whites.

    I hope to get my friend to publish in unz.com when finished.

    Than God we have this place where we can publish cutting edge research free of Jewish consoreship.

  28. j2 says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    “the “Young Turks” were crypto-Jews of the pseudo-Islamic Dönmeh variety, descendants of the followers of the failed Jewish “messiah” Sabbatai Zevi (1626-1676) who converted to Islam in order to escape persecution, but kept their Jewish identity and belief secretly alive”

    This is correct, though not all Young Turks were from Dönmeh, but quite many were Freemasons. Freemasonry had got Sabbatian influences already from Frankists around 1790, so the Cabbalism of Mizraim and Memphis Freemasonry was from Sabbatai Zevi and messianic. That is one of the reasons why Freemasons were ardent Zionists. Freemasonry and Dönmeh were closely connected.

  29. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    Good point. Maybe “Lo” should give us a list of acceptable sources to make this all easier.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  30. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:

    quickly became one of the fiercest advocates

    “One” is missing.

  31. Jake says:
    @anonymous

    Fathers and Sons. Henry Morgenthau Senior was part of a world that could not fathom that events were murdering what was left of old Europe, and he usually acted as a man within that framework. Morgenthau Junior was part of a Jewish world that was certain that WW1 and the Bolshevik Revolution had set in motion the total destruction of even the whiff of old Christendom.

    Morgenthau Junior was certain that the forces of history let loose and stoked since the Reformation had led Europeans to sell their Christendom birthright for a mess of secularist pottage, and that at least from Cromwell’s deal with Jewish bankers, England had become the Anglo-Zionist Empire that conquered the globe and spread culture that was in step with Anglo-Zionism, and that with WW2 America had become the new head of the Anglo-Zionist Empire.

    Morgenthau Junior knew that Yankee WASP values were aligned with Jewish globalist values.

    • Replies: @romar
  32. Mackie says:
    @Lo

    Bernard Lewis was condemned in a court of law in France for his historical distortion of events in the Ottoman empire. So much for being a “neutral expert”…LOL

    • LOL: Al LIguori
    • Replies: @HEREDOT
    , @Lo
  33. anonymous[922] • Disclaimer says:
    @Chris Mallory

    Absolutely!, my exact similar sentiments when I read passionate mythologies about WW1&2… White trash killing White trash.

    Not that I believe, nor do I give a rat’s ass about the so-called “80~100m killed,” but it sure makes for some gripping film.

    Since I know that the cursed West must have been filled with degenerates of your ilk, even during that time, perhaps more so than now, schadenfreude about these past “events” can be sweet. A very satisfying example of… let’s you and him fight. Lol!

    Now, I wonder when is that next “holo-hoax” blockbuster…

    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
  34. Jake says:
    @AaronB

    “I am in the process of writing an article on how the Spanish conquest of the Aztec empire, as well as the American decimation of the Indians, were Jewish driven efforts to assist their international trade.”

    That is just stupid enough to have been proposed by the ADL or SPLC as something to take people’s minds away from actual matters. It’s anti-Spanish Catholic foundation will ring bonus points with both Jews and Anglophone Protestants, as well as the horde of Brit Empire loving atheists and agnostics, including a few VDARE stalwarts.

    The Jewish story with Spain is to know that when Spain expelled Jews, not only did every ‘converso’ family (Jews who claimed to have converted) produce in every generation ‘Spaniards’ who somehow managed to hate most things Spanish, but the Jews who left Spain produced the primary publishers of Reformation tracts on the Continent and the bankers that would fund every Reformed prince as well as England starting with the Puritans.

    • Agree: Al Liguori
    • Replies: @AaronB
  35. Rich says:

    I grew up down the block from a family of Armenians and back before it became fashionable to be a “victim” their sweet grandmother used to tell us stories of her family’s escape from Turkey and the murder of her father by Turks who burned him to death. But no one wanted to be a victim back then, even the Jews I knew as a kid were embarrassed by talk of the “holocaust”. Their hero was Moshe Dayan and the scrappy Israeli army. I don’t understand why so many people have this burning desire to be victims. I’m still embarrassed that Odoacer took Rome in 476AD and try to forget that terrible time.

    And by the way, Armenians in my Queens neighborhood were White, and stood with us when we had to fight invading minorities.

    • Replies: @Wally
  36. Anonymous[895] • Disclaimer says:
    @TKK

    A recent series on Turkish TV depicted Abdulhamid, the last effective Sultan, foreseeing Bolshevik Jews wreaking havoc in the 20th century – he didn’t seem to foresee the C.U.P. overthowing him at all. It was basically “history” for the semi-literate AKP voter.
    Wally’s scepticism about the Armenian Holocaust is mainly because those responsible were never really punished and one Nazi leader reflecting on what to do with the Jews reputedly remarked, ‘After all, who remembers the Armenians?’ Disbelievers in one tend to be disbelievers in the other, since one paved the way for the other.
    I can only offer a personal anecdote which can be dismissed if you wish, but years ago I encountered a Kurdish youth who said in his native village there was a memory of “the day we killed all the Armenians” and it seems his great-grandfather was one of the perpetrators. If you multiply that by hundreds of villages, you do get events that attract terms like “genocide” or “Holocaust”, whatever Wally or Tayyip Erdogan might say.

    • Replies: @Wally
    , @Lo
  37. Wally says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Once again, like the fake “holocaust” of Jews, you believe in something you cannot prove.
    Please present what you consider to be proof for the ‘Armenian genocide’, this article certainly as not it.

    Whether Jews were prominent in the Young Turks or not is irrelevant to the lack of actual proof that the claimed killings 1.5M Armenians actually occurred.

    See my comment #8.

    Your referenced link is devoid of real content. It’s just another childish personal attack.
    There is no proof presented for the Armenian genocide and the absurdly juvenile author, “Dr. Steven Leonard Jacobs” is really more concerned about protecting the fake “holocaust” of Jews.
    He realizes that awareness of the lack of proof for the Armenian claims will and add to the ever growing awareness about the truly contrived “holocaust” of Jews.

    I look forward to seeing your supposed proof for the alleged Armenian genocide.

  38. AaronB says:
    @Jake

    Obviously.

    You’re a catholic – so of course the Reformation is caused by Jews. Of course.

    That much is obvious.

    In fact, Jake, it was the development of Christian culture into the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution – all Christian thinkers – that corrupted Jews and undermined our traditional culture…as well as your own Christendom of course.

    I can easily blame Europeans and Christians for this, but in fact we Jews willingly drank your poison…no one forced us to once again to worship the Golden Calf. We have unfortunately a history of recurrently doing so.

    The legend of the Golden Calf is one of the greatest strengths of Jewish culture – the Bible does not blame the corrupting influence of the local pagan culture, which would have been so easy to do, but places the blame squarely on the Jews.

    From this Jews have always learned to accept responsibility for their apostasy. The legend of the Golden Calf has stood us in good stead.

    And that is why we are so much healthier than you Christians today – we may acknowledge the corrupting influence of our environment, but we never go looking for the primary causes in our neighbors, our environment, or some foreign agent, like you do.

    That temptations we know leads to ruin and an inability to recover – we Jews have many failings, but you will duly note that blaming others for the collapse of our traditional culture is not one of them.

    We know our own weakness and fallen nature is to blame – our Bible tells us this repeatedly – and that is our strength, paradoxically, and the source of our ability to continually renew and revitalize ourselves.

    I wonder if can start blaming all negative trends in Israel on Christians. The Haredi refusal to be drafted into the Army is really a subversive plot by the Orthodox Patriarchate based in Jerusalem to weaken the Jewish state…..

    Tempting, certainly, but it would spell ruin for our ability to deal with the situation. Thank God our Holy Book contains ample warning on this particular temptation.

  39. APilgrim says:

    Carve the Turkey.

    Create a Kurdish Homeland from Turkey, Iran, Syria, & Iraq. Return Armenian lands & property. Return Constantinople to Greece. Encourage China to expel their Turks. Force compensation upon what remains of the Turks.

    We’re going to war anyway. We might as well make it worthwhile.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  40. Al Liguori says: • Website
    @Lo

    Your “holocaust denial” is duly noted. (laughing… at you)

  41. Pandour says: • Website

    If the Turks today held the same military superiority as they did over a disunited Europe in the 16th century,they would waste no time in heading for Vienna and sightseeing would certainly not be the motive.If not for Ottoman raids which lasted from the late 14th to the 17th century,the population of Croatia,for example, today would be 14 instead of four million.

  42. The physical and cultural survival of all white European-descended peoples is directly threatened, whether or not they are Christian. We should all stick together, Christian or not.

    And contra Jesus, we sure as Hell cannot afford to keep “turning the other cheek” to people who do not respect us, our rights, and our culture, and who often seek to harm and displace our children, whether at home or abroad.

  43. @AaronB

    Your holy book is largely self-serving, vicious, often incoherent, racial-supremacist nonsense. People raised as Christians, and sensible decent Jews, simply disdain and ignore the sick parts of your “holy” book, choosing to pick out the wisdom and sound advice that is found amidst the craziness.

    Keep patting yourselves on the back, but there are few to no groups of people who haven’t mistreated other groups when they have the power to do so — Jews foremost among the culprits, not just the victims. But that’s too honest and doesn’t put Jews in an exalted special position, huh.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  44. Al Liguori says: • Website
    @AaronB

    You’re a catholic – so of course the Reformation is caused by Jews. Of course.

    This rabbi boasts how the Synagogue of Satan “reformed” Christians out of the Church:
    Jewish Influence on Christian Reform Movements
    by Rabbi Louis I. Newman,
    http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Influence-Christian-Reform-Movements/dp/0404505139
    http://www.questia.com/library/book/jewish-influence-on-christian-reform-movements-by-louis-i-newman.jsp

    Jake is on solid ground with this: “…the Jews who left Spain produced the primary publishers of Reformation tracts on the Continent and the bankers that would fund every Reformed prince as well as England starting with the Puritans.”

    From this Jews have always learned to accept responsibility for their apostasy. …we never go looking for the primary causes in our neighbors, our environment, or some foreign agent, like you do.

    What a howler that is! Ironically the most self-obsessed tribe is also the tribe least inclined to self-reflection. Nazis, antisemites, the Gospels, penis size, jealous goyim… for the Synagogue of Satan, it is always “the other guy.”

  45. Agent76 says:

    February 20, 2015 America Has Been At War 93% of the Time – 222 Out of 239 Years – Since 1776 The U.S. Has Only Been At Peace For 21 Years Total Since Its Birth

    In 2011, Danios wrote: Below, I have reproduced a year-by-year timeline of America’s wars, which reveals something quite interesting: since the United States was founded in 1776, she has been at war during 214 out of her 235 calendar years of existence. In other words, there were only 21 calendar years in which the U.S. did not wage any wars.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d7c_1424878482

    Bankers Hate Peace: All Wars Are Bankers’ Wars

    In the beginning of World War I, Woodrow Wilson had adopted initially a policy of neutrality. But the Morgan Bank, which was the most powerful bank at the time, and which wound up funding over 75 percent of the financing for the allied forces during World War I … pushed Wilson out of neutrality sooner than he might have done, because of their desire to be involved on one side of the war.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/bankers-hate-peace-all-wars-are-bankers-wars/5438849

  46. Anonymous[120] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    I would like to have learned more about this topic. However…

    However, you didn’t visit any of the linked pages, did you?

    • Replies: @anonymous
  47. @anonymous

    The US should have stayed out of both WWI and WWII.
    Now go ask your doctor to increase your meds or have Ooogobugo kill a chicken over your totem, what ever you wogs do for mental health.

    • Replies: @Al Liguori
  48. AaronB says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Where did I deny that Jews mistreat people when given power? Of course they do, its human nature.

    Look, say your worst about Jews, the Hebrew Bible beat you to it. It is a veritable record of continuous apostasy and moral backsliding and turning away from God. Several times God almost destroys the entire Jewish nation!

    Judaism does not say Jews are superior – it explicitly calls them stubborn and difficult, and says they are only as good as their willingness to follow Gods law. It is a superiority derived entirely from following Gods law, and not personal in character.

    In fact, not anywhere will you find any reference in the Bible to any racial excellence of the Jews – even military victories Jews are admonished to attribute to God, and absolutely never to their own superior merits.

    This is quite explicit – Jews are continuously admonished in the Bible to never attribute any good fortune or success to their own excellence or effort, but to faith in God.

    In fact, Jewish tradition says God chose the Jews because he offered his law to all the nations of the world first, and only Jews were willing to accept it purely on faith – not because of any inherent racial superiority of the Jews

    Of course individual Jews have perverted this in a racial sense, as many Christians did with Europeans – bit which religion can control the perversions of its followers at all times?

  49. HEREDOT says:
    @Lo

    Proponents of the “genocide” thesis say that between 1.5 and 2 million Armenians were killed at the time of the genocide. What was the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire at that time? According to the official Ottoman statistics, the Armenian population is around 1 million 229 thousand (1 million 161 thousand of them belong to the Armenian church and the others are Catholic Armenians). According to the data of Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate, in 1912, 1 million 18 thousand Armenians lived in 6 provinces where Armenians were densely settled. He defended the thesis of the Armenian genocide in Turkey and not even once, so-called neutrality of the Ottoman documents in the Turkish archives, historians, he never mentions it arouses great suspicion. Indeed, these investigators posing an Armenian population of 2 million, according to their estimates, with Turkey voicing their opinions are writing scribbling. However, the date is not written like this, the date is written with the document.

    • Replies: @Lo
  50. @Chris Mallory

    [Too many image “memes.” Reduce their use if you want your comments published.]

    “…kill a chicken over your totem…” Kapparot—“shlugging” chickens http://judaism.is/paganism.html#kapparot

    [MORE]

    This 1905 postcard anticipated the nexus of Judeo-Communism, kapparot, and ritual murder in designating Tsar Nicholas II as one of Judaism’s white fowl pagan animal sacrifices.

    The Hebrew reads: “This is a sacrificial animal so is my cleansing; it will be my replacement and cleansing the victim.”

  51. bookish1 says:

    Before you start to think of Morgenthau as some light hearted humanitarian it was Henry Morgenthau who made the plan to extermiante Germans.

  52. The proof that Armenian genocide was organized by the dark-occult ridden maniacs,
    highly experienced in creating proper digital masks for events of such nature,
    begins (as such masks always begin) with its conventionally recognized starting
    date, 04.24.1915.
    Where unmasked 424 is one of the most important numbers in Kabbalah (as well as
    its inversion, “April 24 1915, Ottoman Empire”=242), and numbers 26 / 62
    (4+2+4+1+9+1+5=26; 04+24+19+15=62;) define the alignment code for what was
    a clear and calculated “genocide”=62.
    But this is not a Gemaria forum, so I’m not going to bring dozens more lines
    supporting the fact, or refer to similar signatures on many well-known, mostly tragic,
    events in the past and present.
    As for who were these “highly experienced maniacs” in this particular case, one can
    decide for him/her self – the list of options is extremely short.

  53. @AaronB

    Typical attempt at insult and snark in place of actual argument.

    Perhaps you’ve made a comment on this column elsewhere that offers specific criticism of the author’s evidence, method, or reasoning — or cited counter evidence or different analysis — but I don’t see it in the comment to which I’m responding.

  54. @Sean

    Obviously in for former Ottoman territories the British used protection of Jews as a pretext to control the new Balkan states. That does not mean really Britain cared about Jews.

    I think you refer to the Don Pacifico case. Certainly, the British were annoyed that Otto the Bavarian had become King of Greece. Did British action promote British interests? It did get rid of Otto in the long term, but little else.

    • Replies: @Sean
  55. alexander says:

    Can anyone on this thread refresh my memory in regards to the bill which came up for vote in Congress officially recognizing the Armenian Holocaust ?

    I know it came up twice,

    Once under Bush Jr….and then again under Obama.

    My understanding is the first attempt was squashed because Turkey , at the time,threatened to retract its permission to use its military bases as staging grounds for our Iraq war.

    Does anyone have clarity on this…as well as the outcome of the second bill, when it came before Obama ?

  56. Lo says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    Does a ‘right wing’ person using a ‘left wing’ source imply dishonesty?

    It may. Particularly when you apply the “credible” source’s views selectively. The author clearly denies the Holocaust, yet has no issues using Taner Akcam’s “evidence.” Taner Akcam recognizes the Holocaust. So why accept his opinions on purported Armenian genocide but not the Holocaust. It’s called selective reading.

    Or could it be, that the author is not biased by ideological leanings, so uses whatever data they consider credible?

    Every single citation directly related to the topic is either Armenian or pro-Armenian.

    Radical Leftists are known for their intense hatred against their own nation. Taner Akcam is no different. Especially considering he escaped from jail (he was in for communist and separatist propaganda), and had to run away from Turkey, and that he is in fact not a historian and cannot read Ottoman only someone with bias would consider him credible.

    • Replies: @Ilya G Poimandres
    , @Wally
  57. Lo says:
    @A.R.

    I didn’t comment regarding the Holocaust. It is a separate topic that I will not get into here. But yes, I agree, the author obviously has agenda, otherwise why constantly appeal to Christianity of Armenians (the one that caused them a lot of grief at the hands of Orthodox Christians) or that Armenians speak an old Indo-European language all the while trying to pretend to write a well-reserached article? If you have the evidence, then you shouldn’t need to appeal to emotions. Just this simple fact is a red flag that constantly appears in writings of Armenian propagandists or their supporters.

    • Replies: @RI
  58. HEREDOT says:
    @Mackie

    Do you believe the French courts are not political? lol

  59. Lo says:
    @TKK

    Jews were loyal to the Ottoman Empire, historically Turks never had any issues with the Jews. Erdogan is an idiot, but he neither wants to establish a Muslim caliphate nor murder Kurds. If that was the case, the majority of Kurds wouldn’t vote for him, now, would they? What you’re trying to do here is a pathetic attempt at twisting my words. I neither said that the Ottomans committed genocide nor that Jews were behind it. As far as other Ottoman atrocities you speak of, it is not related to this topic, if you have evidence and research write an article and post it. Pretty sure it would pale even against the atrocities of tiny European nations like Belgium though.

    • Replies: @TKK
  60. Lo says:
    @Jacques Sheete

    You got a problem with him? Why?

    I am not talking about senator McCarthy, I was referring to an expert professor on Ottoman population statistics.

    You failed to use any sources at all.

    I was not pretending to write a research article in my 2 paragraphs response. I merely pointed out that he did not use a single resource that wasn’t Armenian or pro-Armenian and pointed a few that he could use.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  61. Lo says:
    @Mackie

    Because thanks to Armenian diaspora in France and France’s own guilt (of arming and using Armenians against Ottoman Empire) it is illegal to deny “Armenian genocide” in France genius. Bernard Lewis is one of the top experts in his field and doesn’t need politically charged French courts to agree with him.

    • Replies: @Mackie
  62. Wally says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    said:
    “Wally’s scepticism about the Armenian Holocaust is mainly because those responsible were never really punished and one Nazi leader reflecting on what to do with the Jews reputedly remarked, ‘After all, who remembers the Armenians?’ Disbelievers in one tend to be disbelievers in the other, since one paved the way for the other.”

    – I knew this would come up. Now bend over.

    the ‘Who today remembers the Armenians?’ canard: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=624
    Hitler’s quotation regarding the Armenians – A myth: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3222
    News! The ‘Who Remembers Armenians’ Lie Debunked / reknown Scholar claims forgery’: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=943

    [MORE]

    said:
    “I can only offer a personal anecdote which can be dismissed if you wish, but years ago I encountered a Kurdish youth who said in his native village there was a memory of “the day we killed all the Armenians” and it seems his great-grandfather was one of the perpetrators. If you multiply that by hundreds of villages, you do get events that attract terms like “genocide” or “Holocaust”, whatever Wally or Tayyip Erdogan might say.”

    – That’s it? That’s your proof for 1.5M Armenians? What some alleged “Kurdish youth” supposedly said? Try that in court. LOL

    – So where are the human remains that your laughable “Kudish youth” said must be available to see?

    – And of course you avoid the challenges in my comment #8.

    You’ve been slapped silly again.

  63. Lo says:
    @HEREDOT

    They cannot make their minds up. But as their inconsistencies pointed, I expect them to settle on some number at some point. And yes, there weren’t 1.5 million Armenians in Empire, yet Armenian diaspora has about 8 million people. I guess Armenians have a habit of growing out of the soil through their own means since by their numbers Ottomans must have killed all of them. Also, yet another fact is that the exile of Armenians didn’t even include Armenians in major cities like Istanbul. It was limited to East and Central Anatolia.

    • Replies: @HEREDOT
  64. Wally says:
    @Rich

    said:
    “I grew up down the block from a family of Armenians and back before it became fashionable to be a “victim” their sweet grandmother used to tell us stories of her family’s escape from Turkey and the murder of her father by Turks who burned him to death. But no one wanted to be a victim back then, even the Jews I knew as a kid were embarrassed by talk of the “holocaust”.”

    – There’s no doubt that Armenians & Turks killed each other, it was civil war of a sorts as far as I can see. But so what? One guy allegedly killed is not 1,500,000.

    – Indeed, Jews rarely mentioned the “holocaust” bullshit back then because so many knew it was Zionist propaganda. But now they have realized through the machinations of their media, Hollywood, control of the US Congress, and bans on free speech, that they can make lots of money & gain more power by falsely kvetching about the impossible ‘6,000,000 Jews, 5,000,000 others, & gas chambers’.

    – As far as Armenians go, most that I have encountered have been well educated, articulate, artistically inclined, AND rarely even mention the alleged “genocide”. I get the impression they don’t really believe it. They are an interesting people in many ways.

    – Kudos to you for your take on the twisted ‘victim culture’.

  65. Lo says:
    @Anonymous

    Two things here. One, Hitler’s words are all recorded by Germans, and nowhere in these records does he say “After all, who remembers Armenians?” Two, no one denies that many Armenians had been killed. However, so were millions of Turks. Yet you don’t hear about Turks do you? Armenians had all but wiped out the Turkish populations in multiple city centers. At times, Russian officers themselves were disgusted with their ally’s behavior and had to stop them. So, what should have Turks or Kurds done? As for Kurds, looting was a motive for some attacks, but, so was the behavior of Armenians. One just has to consider the past history, there is absolutely no evidence of massacres or killings of Armenians in previous 800 years, all the way until some Armenians decided to carve their own state (in a land where they were a minority). Why would Turks suddenly relegate Armenians from “loyal nation” to enemies of the state? According to Armenians, it is obvious, they just post a fictionary painting like the one at the beginning of the article, showing some black / dark brown turban guys attacking whites and that’s enough reason. Never mind that Turks are probably whiter than Armenians on average.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  66. HEREDOT says:
    @Lo

    Armenian first prime minister Ovanes Kaçaznuni confessions.
    We participated in military operations

    “1914 Autumn Turkey in the period yet to join one of the warring sides in South Caucasus in a big noise and energetically Armenians began to form volunteer units … and only a few weeks in Armenian revolutionary Dashnaktsutyun Party (EDDP) as well as the creation of both these associations thereof to Turkey actively participated in military operations against karşı. ”

    Our minds were smoked

    “We were unconditionally directed to Russia. Without any justification, we had the glory of victory. In return for our loyalty, efforts and assistance, we were confident that the tsar government would give us the independence of Armenia…

    Our minds were smoked. We couldn’t understand the facts and dreamed of ourselves by imposing our wishes on others, paying great attention to the empty words of irresponsible people, and with the effect of hypnosis that we did to ourselves. ”

    Turks made it right

    “During the summer and autumn 1915 was subjected to a forced deportation of Armenians in Turkey. The Turks knew what they were doing, and today there is no need for them to regret it ((…) this was the most precise and appropriate method. We, who were in anger and fear, were looking for a ”criminal ve and immediately identified it as the“ Russian ”government and its treacherous policies.

    We were being thrown from one end to the other in a confusion that was politically immature and unbalanced. The more blindly and unfounded our yesterday’s belief in the Russian government was, the more blindly and unfounded our accusations today. We, as a political party (Dashnaksutyun), had forgotten that our issue was not of interest to the Russians and that they could, if necessary, pass through our bodies. ”

    We didn’t see the truth

    Dık We participated in military operations. We were deceived and bound to Russia. The relocation was correct and necessary. We haven’t seen the truth, we’re the reason. The national struggle of the Turks was right. It was a big mistake to refuse peace and to arm ourselves. We rebelled against the Turks and fought. The Treaty of Sevres had blinded us. The basis of our rebellion was the great Armenian dream promised by the Allied Powers. But we have never been a state. Turkey says Armenia on the other we see the fact that a state of illusion. ”

     We are the cause of the events

    Etmek It is pathetic to complain about bad fate and look for the causes of our disasters outside ourselves. This is a characteristic feature of our (diseased) national psychology, and the Dashnaksutyun party could not escape it. (…) It was a heroism that we were not far-sighted because everyone who wanted, the French, the British, the Americans, the Georgians, the Bolsheviks simply deceived us, dodged and betrayed us, but we were naively convinced that this war was for the Armenians. ”

    We rejected the peace offer

    Türk The Turks, who were defeated in their war against the imperialists in 1914-1918, rested and revived in two years. A new generation with young and patriotic feelings emerged and began to reorganize its own army in Anatolia. He was awakened national consciousness and self-defense instinct in Turkey.

    In Asia Minor, they had to resist the Sevres Treaty with military force in order to at least secure their prospects. It was a big mistake for us to refuse peace and to arm ourselves.

    Soon after the military operations began to our borders, the Turks offered to meet with us and start negotiations. We turned down their offer. That was a big mistake. This did not necessarily mean that the negotiations would be successful, but there was a chance for a peaceful conclusion. ”

    We rebelled against the Turks and fought

    Ik We rebelled against the Turks. We’ve already fought to sabotage peace. Now we were all in the camp of the allies, the enemies of the Turks. Turkey from “sea to sea Armenia” were in demand. Entente states send their armies to Turkey and to Europe and America have made official calls for ensuring our sovereignty. Finally, as long as we exist, we fought, died and killed the Turks incessantly. Now, what confidence can we propose to the Turks? ”

    The basis of our rebellion was the Great Armenia

    “Turkey’s seven provinces of Cilicia in four starboard and extending from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean to the mountains of the Arabian desert Karabakh” Great Armenia “it was being designed and demand. How could this imperialist dream come true? ”

    We never became a state

    Sak To be fair; If management means foresight, we were absolutely useless Dashnak managers without foresight ability. Our main weakness was at this point. Moreover, we did not understand the purpose of our activities clearly; we did not have a guiding principle and a consistent system that could be applied continuously. It is as if unintentionally moving hesitantly under the influence of random circumstances, hitting our head against the wall and our feet

  67. Sean says:
    @Verymuchalive

    No. I was referring to Britain’s coercive diplomacy ostensibly of behalf of the Jews of newly independent Romania. Britain saw Russia as the enemy and used the issue of Jews against Russia’s ally Romania. There is a realpolitik dimension behind these things, including Palestinian rights. The international considerations usually win out over the domestic.

  68. Alfred says:
    @Wally

    That’s a of lot bodies to bury

    They were led into the desert of Syria and largely robbed and killed by Kurds.

    What makes you think that they need to bury anyone? A million bodies in a few square kilometres of desert would vanish within a few years. It does rain in these deserts. The birds, rodents and insects would have a feast. The sands would blow over them and the winds scatter what remains.

    They are still hoping to find a Persian army that vanished in the Western desert of Egypt- but only their artifacts.

    Egyptologist Discovers What Really Happened to Missing 50,000-Strong Persian Army

    https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/7666/20140619/egyptologist-discovers-what-really-happened-to-missing-50-000-strong-persian-army.htm

    • Replies: @Wally
  69. Lo says:

    which on paper was a security measure the Turks put forth to prevent a Russian-Armenian revolt by forcibly relocating the nationals of Armenia to Mesopotamia and Syria

    Implies that Armenians weren’t Ottoman citizens, and a separate Syria exists. Armenians were citizens of the Ottoman Empire, and Syria is next to Anatolia and also part of the Ottoman Empire. Fact is, the Ottomans used the same relocation measure for centuries for many people from different backgrounds, hundreds of thousands of Turks were also relocated to Balkans.

    This was the story the Young Turks told the world to avoid and minimize any public disapproval or foreign resistance.

    Two points: Young Turks is a misnomer. The party’s name is Union and Progress. It had Jewish, Greek, Armenians and other members from different backgrounds. In fact, some of their cabinet ministers were Armenian. Moreover, why would they care about “foreign resistance” while they were already at war with said foreigners?

    The relocations involved disarmed Armenians being forcibly marched to camps in the inner deserts of Anatolia and Syria, and these camps were not stocked with necessary supplies for survival.

    The Ottoman Empire did not have “necessary supplies” for 90.000 of their own troops that perished due to cold in Eastern Front before they even battled against Russians. That said if the purpose is to let Armenians die, then why set the migration path along River Tigris? Deserts? Deir ez-Zor is right next to River Tigris and is no more “desert” than East Anatolia itself.

    The accusation of Russian-aligned rebellion was used as justification and cover.

    So did they align with Russians or not? Well, they did. You know what it is called if you ally yourself with an invading army. It is called treason everywhere in the world and is a very valid reason for taking counter-measures.

    American Ambassador Henry Morgenthau frantically remarked

    Morgenthau hated Turks, all his helpers were Armenians when he served as ambassador and was trying to garner public support for a war against Germany and its ally Ottoman Empire. Not really a perfect alibi now is he?

    This rule of criminal investigation was observed in the controversial telegram transcriptions written in The memoirs of Naim Bey.

    Memoirs of Naim Bey is written by an Armenian named Aram Andonian. No one knows who this Naim Bey is as there is no record of his existence. I guess if an Armenian says a Turk gave him his memoirs that contained proofs for a genocide that makes perfect sense?

    What events led to these horrific genocide and near destruction of the Armenian people, and why are the Armenian people important for European history?

    Given official numbers of the Armenian population, and your numbers of genocided Armenians, they must have been wiped out completely. Then it’s on you to explain how come there are millions of Armenians all around the West? And, no, Armenians are not important to European history. Unless you think East Anatolia is a part of Europe, which then should also mean Moroccans can also be considered European.

    Ottoman troops by the Young Turks insistence had also invaded Persia.

    So, while busy at Balkans, Gallipoli, Arabia and Eastern Anatolia fighting British, French, and Russians Turks thought it was a sound idea to invade Iran to kill some Christian peasants that could be found in millions within Anatolia proper. Please cite this invasion.

    This withdrew the only ally the Armenians had and put their remaining people at risk of extinction. At this time the last refuge for these people was the small remaining unconquered land of historic Armenia centered around Mount Ararat

    So, they did ally with Russians against their country after all, and that they hoped to establish an independent state in a land where they were a minority. Oh and also, when Turks entered Anatolia, it was Eastern Roman Empire so maybe you should blame Greeks / Romans for destroying historical Armenia (in fact, Armenians supported Turks due to massacres of Orthodox Roman Empire).

    Mount Ararat is traditionally the Christian-accepted location of Noah’s Ark in the Book of Genesis.

    So? By the same logic, you must be a supporter of Israel since it is also mentioned in the Bible.

    Much of the Armenian highlands were lost; Western Armenia was renamed “Eastern Anatolia” by the invaders.

    You mean by Romans correct? By the time Turks came, there was no Armenia in Anatolia. It was all Roman land. Thus, “lost” land was lost to Christians who thought they were rightful Christians. Anatolia itself is a Greek word, not Turkish.

    The Destruction of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire resulted by most estimates with 1.5 million of the 2 million Ottoman Armenians being exterminated.

    There weren’t 2 million Armenians, the total population was less than 1.5 million. Refer your sources for the population. This is the sort of thing you should cite as it contains numeric data.

    Sergey Lavrov is perhaps the most visible example of a Russian Armenian given that he was born to an Armenian father

    What does it have to do with genocide? But yes, Armenian Russian relations is interesting, it is basically Russians utilizing Armenians as a protective pad between themselves and Turks.

    To be continued…

  70. There were recently lethal ethnic hostilities between Armenians and Azeris, I think it was, in the early 1990s after the break up of the Soviet Union, similar to the events in the balkans. Any time a great empire fragments, the genie of ethnic strife is unleashed. Similar events took place when the British left India and Palestine. The Rwanda’s genocide could be seen as a delayed case too. These people need a firm European ruling hand.

    • Replies: @romar
  71. @Lo

    “… you are probably not interested in neither intellectualism nor honesty…”

    Since you’re posing yourself as an unbiased model of “intellectualism and honesty”
    and, unlike the author, are “interested in truth”, you obviously must know correct
    answers to at least 2 questions below:
    1) Was the USS Liberty indeed attacked by mistake ?
    2) Could 19 Arabs indeed be the perpetrators of the Sep. 11 attack ?

    Informing readers about your stance on just these 2 issues may significantly help
    them either take you seriously, or save their and your time. Win/Win for you.
    .

    • Replies: @Lo
  72. @Lo

    Especially true given that Erdogan and many other Turks are genetically part Greek.

    We live in LA and interact with Armenian people here and in Glendale (the capital of the Armenian diaspora outside Russia) and Burbank. Some of them look similar to Iranians, nearly white skin, similar features, and jet-black hair etc. One of our Armenian acquaintances, by contrast, looks quite Arabic, or that’s the closest description.

    What little I’ve read about Armenian genetics reports precisely that admixture: European, Persian, Arab.

  73. wholy1 says:

    And . . . whala! “The Young Turks” has reared its ugly head again in 2002 in the form of the Hildabeast muff-diving/Soros dick-sucking Cenk Kadir Uygur. Who, by the way, is purported to be very instrumental in infecting the dumbed-down populace with which recent political virus phenom, wait for it . . . AOC.

  74. @Lo

    You’ll get mostly Chinese sources for Chinese history and Armenian sources for Armenian history. The rare Turk that is honest is run out like the academics that get hit by the modern inquisition, and their voice is forgotten.

    Of course you are being selective. Because one argument may be good, but one bad. Einstein made general relativity – good. But he also stuck to Einsteinian realism instead of embracing relativity for phenomenology in full – bad. I can select to use one but not the other in my life.

    • Troll: HEREDOT
    • Replies: @Lo
  75. Anonymous [AKA "Quinn"] says:
    @Lo

    Bernard Lewis is the absolute worst possible source to cite as “legitimate”

    Even the absurdly biased wikipedia cite alludes to this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis

    “…The first two editions of Lewis’ The Emergence of Modern Turkey (1961 and 1968) describe the Armenian Genocide as “the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a million and a half Armenians perished”.[33] In later editions, this text is altered to “the terrible slaughter of 1915, when, according to estimates, more than a million Armenians perished, as well as an unknown number of Turks”.[34] In this passage, Lewis argues that the deaths were the result of a struggle for the same land between two competing nationalist movements.[14]”

    This is biased revisionism for the purpose of creating and maintaining neocon history

    “…Lewis called the label “genocide” the “Armenian version of this history” in a November 1993 interview with Le Monde”

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Alden
  76. Lo says:
    @Ilya G Poimandres

    Ilya, you had too much vodka today. Let’s comment another time when you are sober.

  77. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    No, I didn’t. After wasting 15 minutes on the article, I lost interest and moved on.

  78. Wally says:
    @Alfred

    – Please present proof that 1.5M Armenian were “led into the desert of Syria and largely robbed and killed by Kurds.”

    That’s hilarious, but take your best shot.

    – 1.5M human’s bones would not just vanish in a few years. Your claim is ridiculous and defies archaeological records.*

    – You further make a fool of yourself attempting to link an alleged event from 524 BC to alleged events of AD 1915.

    * Stone-Age Skeletons Unearthed In Sahara Desert: https://www.livescience.com/27697-stone-age-libyan-burials-unearthed.html

    https://img.purch.com/h/1400/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAzNy81MTMvb3JpZ2luYWwvbGlieWFuLXN0b25lLWFnZS1za2VsZXRvbi5qcGc=
    “Archaeologists uncovered 20 Stone Age skeletons in the Sahara Desert. The burials spanned thousands of years, suggesting the place was a persistent cemetery for the local people.”

    • Replies: @HEREDOT
    , @Alden
  79. TKK says:
    @Lo

    The Kurds hate Erdogan. They are labeled terrorists in their own country. A young Turkish woman dating a Kurd could result in her murder by her family.. Erdogan hates the Kurds. Why do you think the largest military base is in Diyarbakır?

    I have lived in Turkey with a Turkish family, speak Turkish and understand the culture far more than anyone has reading books.

    Write an article? I work for a living. Do not tell me what to do because you are pontificating like an ignorant fool.

    For you to state Erdogan has kindness towards the Kurds is insane. Bat sh*t bonkers.

    Likewise to deny the brutality of the Turks/ Ottoman Empire since Paul the Apostle walked near the Hagia Sophia when it was Byzantine- now a mosque– dumb a$$- but Erdogan is an Ataturk? Secular and tolerant. His cow wife covers her head with trash bags (colorful at least) and he has the largest presidential palace IN THE WORLD. He imprisons thousands who don’t lick his boots. The government sweeps after the coup? Recalling the mayor race in Istanbul because the opposition candidate İmamoğlu is not AK Party?

    Erdogan is Ramzan Kadyrov with better optics. Even academics cannot discuss politics safely anymore. The threat of being associated with the Gülen movement is a sword over their heads.

    The Turks did slaughter the Armenians. Full stop. They also slaughtered on Cyprus. No help from the Goldsteins needed.

    Can you find a way to bootstrap Jewish machinations as to what happened in Rwanda?

    There is no haven from know it all keyboard clowns.

    • Replies: @Lo
  80. Wally says:
    @Lo

    said:
    ” So why accept his opinions on purported Armenian genocide but not the Holocaust. It’s called selective reading.”

    “Selective reading” in that we know the “holocaust” is contrived nonsense via forensics & basic science which reveal a complete lack of immense human remains that are alleged, and the fact that the alleged ‘gas chambers’, among other things, were scientifically impossible. Simple stuff really.

    The author, who correctly rejects the “holocaust” narrative, must apply the same methods that have been used to demolish the “holocaust” narrative (and any alleged crime of mass murder) when examining the claims of an “Armenian genocide”.

    If one can find the remains of the Czar’s family who were murdered in 1918, then certainly finding the remains of anything approaching the alleged 1,500,000 Armenians would be a cakewalk, IF the “genocide” claim was factual.

  81. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Mr. Quinn, hope you don’t depend on writing to put food on the table, because you broke the 11th Commandment–and probably the most serious one–“Thou Shalt no Question the Holy Holocau$t ™.”

    For all Goyim are supposed to know that the term holocaust is exclusively reserved for Die Juden and anyone suggesting that Gentiles suffered and died, on par with the alleged (Actually non-existence) Holocau$t ™ is going to catch hell, be banished from writing for pay and get called all sorts of nasty names.

    That said, keep up the good work. If a house’s foundation has been rotted out by termites, one must tear it out and replace it with good wood, or in this case, the TRUTH about the biggest fraud in history, the Holocau$t ™ so the world can go back to some level of sanity and the West can stop cowering under the Juden threats that evolve around that con job, which has caused hundreds of millions–maybe even billions–of humans endless misery and might just set off WWIII, all to protect a LIE and Apartheid Israel.

  82. HEREDOT says:
    @Wally

    These are people who suffer from excessive propaganda. No truth can convince them.

    • Replies: @Wally
  83. @A.R.

    Troll….I used my troll tag already.

  84. Seraphim says:
    @mcohen

    “Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant (To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace)”. Tacitus, De vita et moribus Iulii Agricolae, XXX.
    Clearly the Ottomans ‘pacified’ Armenia.

  85. @Ilya G Poimandres

    @ Ilya G Poimandres

    Hello exomotis!!!!!!!!!!!

  86. Lo says:
    @TKK

    You’re out of your depth and your mouth is foaming. Perhaps you should wash your mouth. You are rambling nonsensical irrelevant stuff. So you claim over 10 million Kurds were labeled as terrorists? What kinds of precautions are being taken then? Is there enough prisons for all these people or are you just bsing. Also, please cite these murdered young ladies, but since you stated it as if it is a large scale social phenomenon make sure to show a study. That’s right, Erdogan does not hate Kurds, he is an Islamist. This myth of Erdogan being nationalist is being constructed by Israel, and perpetuated by unaware ignoramuses like you. All he cares about is getting elected, in the past he collaborated with Kurds, at that time praises from the West were endless. He gradually became the bad guy after the incident at Davos, and the attack on the Turkish ship by Israel. Only after coup attempt did he get close to the nationalist party of Turkey, if it would bring him the victory he would have no issues working with Kurds or Leftists, he is just an opportunist. As for the largest Turkish military base, I don’t know where it is, assuming you are right where else should it be? Diyarbakir is right next to Syria and Iraq, and is pretty close to Iran. Sounds like a good place to put a big military base to me. Regarding elections, Kurdish vote is divided between Kurdish party and Erdogan. You are smoking pipe if you think Kurds are some secular people and will not vote for Islamist Erdogan. This is the case despite the pressure from terrorists.

    Then you claim I said, he has kindness towards Kurds. First I didn’t say that, I said he didn’t have murderous intentions for the Kurds. That being said, in fact, when they were first elected they were very lenient towards Kurds and PKK (a terrorist organization), it resulted in PKK turning several border cities into armories, and eventually caused a lot of headache for Turkish army in the form of urban battles. Then Western press painted it as if Turks were just raging for no reason. PKK hoped to start a civil war in Turkey near Syria and Iraq, it didn’t end up as they hoped as Kurdish populace mostly didn’t support their cause.

    No one claimed Turks didn’t kill Armenians or Cypriots (how is it relevant?), the issue is calling it genocide as if these people were innocent, didn’t kill Turks themselves and Turks just killed them for the heck of it. Which is factually wrong.

    So what about Hagia Sophia? People have always converted other religions’ temples into their own. That said, Hagia Sophia is still a museum, not a mosque, you are presenting false information yet again. And I never called Erdogan an Ataturk. You just ramble and make things up and pretend as if I said them. You are right about one thing, there is no haven from keyboard clowns, and the clown is you as you are the one who keeps mixing anecdotes, gossips and your imagination with some partial facts and thinking that you know what you’re talking about. The fact that you claim Erdogan is nationalist is enough to show your ignorance and being under the influence of Zionist media. He is not a nationalist, he is an Islamist with an Arab wife. Which is why he picks fights with Israel, and lets millions of Arabs into Turkey. Doesn’t sound nationalist, now, does he?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  87. Lo says:
    @AB_Anonymous

    1. I don’t know, I find it hard to believe that a ship with American flag could get attacked accidentally, but the US government disagrees.
    2. I don’t know, regardless, none of those Arabs were from Iraq or Afghanistan. They were all Saudis, which should be a great reason for ending Saudi dictatorship.
    3. Stop assuming everyone who says things you don’t like is a Jew with Zionist agenda. I don’t think it is a good idea to ally with Israel, and I think it is a terrible idea to fight wars in ME for their cause. Arabs and Jews should figure out their own issues and the US should not involve in fights that are not in its interests.

    • Replies: @AB_Anonymous
  88. Skeptikal says:
    @Al Liguori

    Wow! I just read the two Wayne Madsen pieces at Strategic-Culture.org.
    Amazing. Completely new to me.
    Is there any more recent writing on the Donmeh?
    I had never even heard of this group.
    But explains a lot.

  89. Skeptikal says:
    @Lo

    Ho ho, I’ll listen to Wayne Madsen before—way before!–I will believe you, Mr. LoLo.

    • Replies: @Lo
  90. Lo says:
    @Sean

    Armenians would have done well to take Russian promises of support with a pinch of salt.

    They did. Most Armenians didn’t care for Armenian rebels, it is the reason why rebels assassinated high profile Armenians who were against their cause. Including Armenian business people and members of Armenian clergy. To be fair, they looked at the examples of Balkans, and followed the same methods as Bulgarian committees (which received help from Russia). However, they didn’t calculate the fact that Turks were a minority in Balkan countries that gained independence through pogroms against Turks and guerrilla wars against the Ottoman army, but not in East Anatolia where Armenian rebels wanted to establish an independent state. As a result, they brought calamity to their own people. There is no reason to think that Armenians wouldn’t have remained safe as they have been for the past 800 years if it wasn’t for these terror committees.

    • Replies: @RI
  91. Lo says:
    @Skeptikal

    I don’t care. Listen to Wayne Madsen. Then get in a SpaceX rocket and go to Mars if you wish.

  92. Seraphim says:

    Harping on the supposed Dönmeh origin of the Jön Türkler, or on the real number of Armenian victims, or whether there was genocide, obscures the fact that what happened in 1915 was, in the words of Talaat Pasha, relayed by Bernsdorff, the ‘solution of the ‘Armenian Question’, integral part of the ‘Eastern Question’ which dominated the politics of the European Powers since the raise of Russia as a great power and protector of the Christians of the Ottoman Empire.
    The ‘Armenian Question’ was addressed since the Berlin Congress of 1878, which imposed on the Ottoman Empire a program of reforms affecting all Christian minorities giving them autonomies, to which the Ottomans responded by reinforcing the ideology of ‘Panislamism’ and with campaigns of massacres culminating in the ‘Hamidian massacres’ (in which the Kurds played a central role), to which Europeans could not turn their usual blind eyes. New efforts were made to bring the Ottomans to respect their engagements, which led to the adoption in 1895, under the aegis of Russia and European Powers of the Armenian Reform Program, again disregarded by the Sultan Abdul Hamid. Armenian revolutionary movement followed.
    The Balkan wars created the opportunity to relaunch the ‘Armenian Reform Program’. Russia and European Powers and Ottomans signed in 1914 a ‘Armenian Reform Package’ granting Armenians large autonomy. Germany, who was encouraging the ‘Panislamism’ opposed the plan. The outbreak of the war naturally quashed it altogether and permitted the Ottomans to solve the ‘Armenian problem’ in their usual way, with the full backing of Germany. Their excuse that it was a strategic measure to stave the Russians is false, because it was Turkey which started the war against Russia (as a ‘jihad’) at the behest of Germany.
    BTW, it is not a mere coincidence that Turkey was harboring ‘Russian’ revolutionaries like the “Merchant of Revolution’ (millionaire arm dealer, cum Marxist intellectual, advisor of the Young Turks and editor of their official newspaper Turk Yulcu) Alexander Parvus (aka Israel Lazarevich Gelfand) who drew the plans for revolutionizing Russia (including the transport of Lenin and Trotsky – his pupil) while in Istanbul, plans that he submitted to the German High Command through the German Ambassador to the Sultan.

    • Replies: @j2
  93. @Lo

    The difference between you and me is that you “don’t know” (or pretend you don’t) or find it “hard to believe”, and I know for sure that the attack on “a United States Navy technical research ship” wasn’t a mistake. Same difference for 19 Arabs as possible 9/11 perpetrators.

    Both of which events I brought in connection to your comment #2 only to underline that there are some limits in denying or claiming things, and not necessarily coming from material evidence, witnesses, confessions of supposed culprits, etc., etc. One can think of it as of an invisible, and yet “illuminated dimension”, the presence of which can be clearly established in many tragic events, including that discussed in this article. The rest is conventional logic that automatically makes some of your statements invalid.

  94. Seraphim says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    But didn’t Lenin said that it is imperative that the revolutionary masses must be led by a ‘vanguard party’ of professional revolutionaries, the only capable to understand when a ‘revolutionary situation’ is rife? And who were the professional revolutionaries in Russia?

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  95. @Lo

    You failed to use any sources at all.

    I was not pretending to write a research article in my 2 paragraphs response. I merely pointed out that he did not use a single resource that wasn’t Armenian or pro-Armenian and pointed a few that he could use.

    No one expected you to write a research article in your 2 paragraph response, but the least you could do is to adhere to your own standards for others and be a bit more specific and not “merely point out some sources” which are not really sources but merely names of authors that mean something to you that may or not be legit. I, for one, would like to check out your sources but have limited time for this particular subject and have little motivation to do that with the sparse info you provided.

    Until then this article interests me and has the ring of truth.

    PS: We all know, (don’t we?), that there is only one holocaust and there shall be no other holocausts before that particular one.

  96. @Anonymous

    Maybe “Lo” should give us a list of acceptable sources to make this all easier.

    Did you see his smart-ass comment to me when I pointed out that he, after denigrating the author’s sources, failed to provide such himself? Does he really think that tossing out a few of his favorite authors’ names qualifies as providing sources?

    • Replies: @Lo
  97. anon[395] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lo

    Brandeis made it sure that discussion and liaison between Turkey and USA were not established He sent his his own person and delayed the effects of the Secretary of State ‘s visits on Turkey – US eventual mutual war of unnecessarry self destruction. It was done to so that Turkey can be seized and its ME can be broken . Zionist did it.

  98. anon[526] • Disclaimer says:

    “On May 30th 1915 Talaat Pasha issued the Tehcir Act, which on paper was a security measure the Turks put forth to prevent a Russian-Armenian revolt by forcibly relocating the nationals of Armenia to Mesopotamia and Syria.[4] This was the story the Young Turks told the world to avoid and minimize ”

    How did Russia enter into the equation of Picot -Syke ‘s Jewish plans?

    Russia was on board of dismembering Turkey proper and seize Istanbul . Plans were to flood the country with more Greek and Armebian and return the financial control to them.

    Czar was a great economist in addition being a Christian fanatic .

    (

  99. j2 says:
    @Seraphim

    “BTW, it is not a mere coincidence that Turkey was harboring ‘Russian’ revolutionaries like the “Merchant of Revolution’ (millionaire arm dealer, cum Marxist intellectual, advisor of the Young Turks and editor of their official newspaper Turk Yulcu) Alexander Parvus (aka Israel Lazarevich Gelfand) who drew the plans for revolutionizing Russia (including the transport of Lenin and Trotsky – his pupil) while in Istanbul, plans that he submitted to the German High Command through the German Ambassador to the Sultan.”

    Thanks for pointing out this. I knew of Parvus’ role, but not that he was an advisor of the Young Turks. Now, as the Young Turks were so close to Freemasons and as you say that German High Command got the plans and probably the idea to send Lenin from Parvus, this makes more sense. It removes the odd coincidence of why Germans just decided to support Lenin at the correct time to make a revolution. WWI fulfilled many Masonic goals: destroying three remaining monarchies, being a war without sense (the war to finish all wars), supporting Zionism, raising the USA to a world power, and also helping Communists: in the beginning the revolution in Russia in 1917 was greeted with applauds in newspapers).

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  100. @AaronB

    Despite the almost certain risk of alienating those who think they agree with me on most things, I must say that your comment is commendable. One of the characteristics of us non-goyim that grates me to a high degree is our tendency to not only blame others for our own problems, but to look to others for relief (some messiah, whom, incidentally, we’d promptly exterminate upon arrival in any case). Those tendencies also partly explain why we seem so easily seduced by even the most obvious snake oil peddlers. Accepting responsibility is not well developed among “my” kind as far as I can tell, and I’d like to wish we’d grow up, but recognize the futility of allowing myself that luxury.

    I can easily blame Europeans and Christians for this, but in fact we Jews willingly drank your poison…no one forced us to once again to worship the Golden Calf. We have unfortunately a history of recurrently doing so.

    The opposite is true of course, but I dare not say it!

    • Replies: @AaronB
  101. @AaronB

    You, from the same post:

    ” – we Jews have many failings, but you will duly note that blaming others for the collapse of our traditional culture is not one of them.”

    and five paragraphs earlier…

    “In fact, Jake, it was the development of Christian culture into the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution – all Christian thinkers – that corrupted Jews and undermined our traditional culture…”

  102. Alden says:
    @anonymous1963

    We’re getting that in America too. It’s Indian women living in the reservation presumably killed and bodies disposed of by the killers who are also Indians. Indian rez police failed to solve the crimes.

    This concerns us how?

  103. Alden says:
    @Chris Mallory

    Arminians are White Christians, they are part of our ethnicity and culture.

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  104. Alden says:
    @AaronB

    Reality check on the decimation of the Indians at least in the USA. There are 3 times as many Indians now as in 1492.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  105. Wally says:
    @HEREDOT

    And they are the same people who are supporting censorship and are insisting upon even more bans on free speech because they cannot rationally respond to scrutiny of their flimsy beliefs.

    Thanks.

  106. Mackie says:
    @Lo

    The condemnation of Bernard Lewis was not politically charged. He was found guilty for deliberately suppressing elements that run counter his hypothesis. i.e he failed in his objectivity as historian. See paragraphs just before “Parcesmotif” (toward the end)
    https://www.voltairenet.org/article14133.html

    Bernard Lewis is not the “neutral expert” that you claim.

  107. Alden says:
    @AaronB

    It’s not so much that Jews caused the reformation or even paid much attention to it. Except maybe for getting out of the way when the different factions starting fighting like German Lutherans vs Anabaptists

    It’s the reformation emphasis on the Jewish rather than the Christian part of the Bible. That was for entertainment value. Greatest story ever told, war, raids, rape, adultery, porn, violence massacres , heroes , villains, God watching over his chosen slaves escaping Pharaoh, the trek to Israel Affordable editions of the Bible were like movies, TV and Netflix are today.

    A lot of it was romanticism; go back to our roots when Christianity was just another Jewish sect.

    OT is a lot more entertaining than goody goody Jesus and his followers.

  108. Jirair says:

    Lo regrets that McCarthy, Lowry, Shaw, etc. have not been quoted in the article. The three and a few others are the darling of Turkish denialists. They have free access to Turkish archives, are wined and dined during their junkets to Turkey and by far the top customers for their books is Turkey. Ankara purchases most copies and distributes them through its diplomatic, trade, cultural, etc. offices around the world. The three owe part of their income to Turkey.

  109. Jirair says:
    @Al Liguori

    The accusation that the Armenian Genocide was perpetrated by donmeh Jews is Turkish propaganda to shift the blame from Turks to Jews. By shifting the blame, Turkey hopes to achieve an end to Armenian demands from Turkey for justice, for admission of guilt, for restitution, compensation and the return of some of the Armenian lands (90 percent of Armenia is occupied by Turkey) to Armenia.

  110. Lo says:
    @Jacques Sheete

    I am not pretending to write a well-researched article with citations at the end. You got dementia or what old man? Names I gave should be familiar to anyone who pretends to research this topic as every single one of them is an expert in either Ottoman history, ME or population studies. To author’s credit, he did put McCarthy there along with a couple of other neutral sources but didn’t use their opinions on genocide topic, just for definitions that you can as well find on Wikipedia.

    • Replies: @Alden
    , @Jacques Sheete
  111. Lo says:
    @Anonymous

    So he said it was a civil war, and called “genocide” as “the Armenian version of this history.” Which means that genocide is the claim of Armenians, but not the objective version, just their interpretation. And, you didn’t even include the continuation of the text you presented. Your section is in bold and here is the full version:

    Lewis called the label “genocide” the “Armenian version of this history” in a November 1993 interview with Le Monde, for which he faced a civil proceeding in a French court. In a subsequent exchange on the pages of Le Monde, Lewis wrote that while “terrible atrocities” did occur, “there exists no serious proof of a decision and of a plan of the Ottoman government aiming to exterminate the Armenian nation”

    Again, what did he say? No plan or decision to exterminate Armenians. That was dishonest to not include the full context but twist the meaning by selective quotation.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  112. @Alden

    Kardashians would suggest Armenians are hardly a cut above gypsies.

    • Replies: @Alden
    , @Alden
  113. Alden says:
    @Wally

    The Armenian massacres holocaust whatever it’s called has been common knowledge conventional wisdom among all historians since it happened. Kurdish cavalry were the troops most heavily involved in the killings.

    There are hundreds of thousands of sources books, newspaper and other government files by reporters diplomats and spies who observed it and Syrian Arabs who buried the bodies.

    Government foreign office reports by spies and diplomats about what’s happening are generally very reliable. And I don’t mean just Morgenthau senior either. S Americans, Asians European countries that were neutral in WW1 all official observers sent those reports to their governments

    If you object to the word holocaust use the word massacre mass killings.

    To demand clipped and pasted internet sources leads to the assumption that you are so ignorant of recent history that you’ve never heard of it.

    The claim that Turkey was a benign peaceful empire that treated its subjects wonderfully is as much a myth as the glory of Muslim/Jewish Spain and the WW2 holocaust. The only subject people who claim to have thrived under Turkish rule were Jews decades after the Turkish Empire fell

    It was part of the give money to Zionism propaganda sold to Jews . “ The evil Christian Europeans have always been mean to us. But the Muslims have always loved us and treated us so well. Move to Palestine and live with our semetic brothers.

    We know how that turned out, constant war fare since the 1920s riots.

    • Replies: @Wally
  114. Alden says:
    @Priss Factor

    It’s their Scots British mother who created the slutty sisters after their Armenian father died.

    Father was a wealthy attorney. His father grandfather and great grandfather who created extremely prosperous businesses, I mean worth millions as soon as they arrived in America.

    The only thing Armenian about the Kardashians is their surname. Chris the mother started the phenomenon as soon as the oldest turned 18. Chris had been married to Bruce Jenner about 10 years then

    Had the sisters used step fathers or mothers surnames you could sneer at the English and Germans as the phenomenon was created by their mother not their long deceased father

    How anyone could create a multi billion dollar out of 6 daughters I don’t know. Why not blame the idiots that watch the show buy tabloids and buy the ugly black husbands music?

    If you don’t like their show, don’t watch it.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  115. Alden says:
    @Priss Factor

    They are Whites, just like you. And belong to the oldest Christian sect in existence, even older that the Roman. Officially Christian before Roman Catholicism.

    And kept the faith for 2,000 years surrounded and occupied by Mongolians Turks Russians Persians and then the soviets.

  116. Alden says:
    @Lo

    Jaques only source of information is the internet. And then only what agrees with his preconceptions.

    • LOL: Lo
    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
    , @HEREDOT
  117. @Lo

    I am not pretending to write a well-researched article with citations at the end. You got dementia or what old man?

    Just as I thought. You’re nothing more than a loud mouth, smart ass, punk. FYI, you already wrote about what you were not pretending, so it looks as if you may have forgotten what you just did. Short term memory loss like that is a sign of dementia, I think, so guess who has it? Or maybe I shouldn’t torment you and tax the abilities of such a pathetic creature and should perhaps take pity instead. Fuggeddaboudit.

    And since you mentioned dementia,

    Names I gave should be familiar to anyone who pretends to research this topic as every single one of them is an expert in either Ottoman history, ME or population studies.

    I already explained why I requested specific references. Also, FYI, I never “pretended” to be anything close to an expert in either Ottoman history, ME or population studies, and do not intend or pretend to be one, ever.

    Until you cover your big mouth with something of substance, I’ll take the author’s piece over your braying baloney, dimwit sarcasm and insults any day, loser!

    • Replies: @Lo
  118. @Alden

    Jaques only source of information is the internet. And then only what agrees with his preconceptions.

    Are you suggesting that I look in my diapers like you losers obviously do, instead? Imbecile.

    BTW, “preconceptions” is a pretty big word; do you know what it means? You shouldn’t use words unless you have a clue as to their meaning, moron. FYI, I have no “preconceptions” on this topic which is why I read the article and requested your fellow moron provide something of substance.

    Now shuddup and take a hike.

  119. @Alden

    Reality check on the decimation of the Indians at least in the USA. There are 3 times as many Indians now as in 1492.

    Decimation means killing every tenth one. However, even allowing for your ignorant misuse of the word, and for the sake of argument, say that 90% of the number of original inhabitants was exterminated, your math reasoning must be off a bit if you think your comment has much meaning since the survivors could easily have multiplied enough to replace the originals by a factor of 3 in over 500 years.

    I’m amused at your insistence on displaying your ignorance in public. Thank you.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  120. HEREDOT says:
    @Alden

    A lot of trolls here are marketing this like real.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  121. Robjil says:
    @AaronB

    Since all most people know about Amazon tribes is that they are blow darters. Are they really primitive in thinking about the human condition or more advanced than our rulers? What level are they at? Do some Amazon tribes have Zionist like concepts. Zionism is on a quite low level. Perhaps the Amazon tribes are on a higher level. It would be interesting to study and compare them with Zionism.

    Does any tribe think that one tribe is above others?

    Does any tribe think that Seven tribes must be destroyed? Or is it another number?

    Does any tribe think that everyone should worship them since their tribe was once almost killed off, or imagined they were?

    Is any tribe so protected that all the other tribes must not say anything bad about them no matter what they do?

    Zionism is at the level on all these questions. Ironically, Zionists have the name Amazon for their book selling business.

  122. Wally says:
    @Alden

    Like Wow!

    said: “The Armenian massacres holocaust whatever it’s called has been common knowledge conventional wisdom among all historians since it happened.”

    – So where’s the proof that formed this “common knowledge”?
    Do you realize how many ridiculous tall tales were once said to be “common knowledge”?
    Witchcraft was “common knowledge”, proved in courts, and accepted by the best minds for thousands of years.

    said: “There are hundreds of thousands of sources books, newspaper and other government files by reporters diplomats and spies who observed it and Syrian Arabs who buried the bodies. ”

    – Then show them to us. Simple.

    said: “Government foreign office reports by spies and diplomats about what’s happening are generally very reliable.

    – Really? is that why you don’t show them to us?
    What do they say? What are these “reports” based upon? What proof do they present?

    said: “To demand clipped and pasted internet sources leads to the assumption that you are so ignorant of recent history that you’ve never heard of it.”

    Hey dumb ass, we’re on the internet, digital references are always “clipped & pasted”.
    I note that you cannot give us even one exact reference with quotes from it.
    What the hell is wrong you? We’re discussing an alleged event here and you’re behaving like a thumb sucking child.

    said: “The claim that Turkey was a benign peaceful empire that treated its subjects wonderfully is as much a myth …”

    – Hey Bozo, that’s a false strawman argument. I never said that Turkey treated the Armenians “wonderfully”.
    I did say that there appeared to be a civil war in which many people on both sides died. Quit lying.
    I have no dog in this fight and don’t really care one way or the other. I do however insist upon rigorous, verifiable methods in determining the truth in such an alleged enormous crime.
    Try taking the horseshit you are muttering here into a real court of law. You would be thrown out.

    – I notice the fact that you cannot show us anything approaching 1,500,000 Armenian human remains that necessarily must exist if the narrative is true.

    You’re an incompetent fool, go away.

  123. @Lo

    Lo is screaming “OUTRAGE!” So Lo is the guilty one.

  124. @Jacques Sheete

    What is the technical word for the medical condition of someone who takes the meaning of words literally? Yes, that’s right, autism.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  125. Lo says:
    @Jacques Sheete

    Stop being an angry old man, you are just embarrassing yourself. And for your information punk is long dead and no one without dust on them uses your insults anymore.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  126. @Lo

    Strange. That Bernard Lewis, who happens to be Jewish, said “there exists no serious proof of a decision and of a plan of the Ottoman government aiming to exterminate the Armenian nation.” This is certainly true of the Jews and the Germans, yet he believed one but not the other.

  127. RI says:
    @Lo

    The author appeals to the Christianity of Armenians may be due to the long history of Ottoman genocide put on Christian populations of Asia minor, Balkan Countries (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians, Croats, Albanians, Valachians), South Ukraine, Hungary,parts of Poland and Austria. All Christians. Genocide by killing, blood tax (taking forcefully at least one young boy from every Christian family and making them Yanicharies) , or by forcible converting them on the treat of death. Common denominator – Christianity. From 14th to 19th century endless terror on Christians by the Turks, culminating in mass genocide of Bulgarians in 1876 and Armenians in 1915. Ninety percent of the songs, tales, scripts, books, and folklor of these people is about that Turkish genocide and their relentless fighting agains it. Ottoman empire was the Antichrist to them. And it was.

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Wally
  128. RI says:
    @Lo

    There is one reason – the Turks were and are occupantson foreign lands, these peoples’ lands . I give them my admiration that after centuries of suffering under occupants they did not give up their determination to throw out the occupants and be free.

    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @Lo
  129. romar says:
    @Yapius the 2nd

    “These people need a firm European ruling hand.”
    This type of arrogance will soon be history: Europe will decline as Asia rises, and the world will be smiling sardonically at any suggestion that “European hands” should attempt to hold any country…
    India needs a Euro hand to rule it? Do you know how much older the India nation is compared to Europe?
    And is European history not full of the same miseries as any other part of the world? And with much more to come, with your foolish immigration policies…

  130. romar says:
    @Wally

    “How were they supposedly exterminated?”
    As these poor people were driven away, sections would separated from the main body of deportees, taken to a nearby village, and as the guards set about killing them, all the Turkish villagers would be called out to come and help with the massacres – using whatever they could find.
    Morgenthau writes that even the women came out and enthusiastically stabbed, bludgeoned and stoned as many Armenians as they could.

    • Replies: @Wally
  131. @ploni almoni

    Thanks doc, now what’s the technical medical term for an idiot who attempts to make fun of angry old farts with autism because he has nothing of substance to offer?

  132. @Lo

    I’d rather have dust on me than in my head. Punk may have died long ago, but apparently he must’ve risen from the dead. What next for you; savior of the world?

    Ps: I’m going to bow out and re-read the article a few more times just to make sure I don’t miss any of the author’s pearls of wisdom. He must be onto something since you protest so much, argue your case so poorly and sound incompetent as well.

  133. Lo says:
    @RI

    More and more false statements. No classical empire in the Middle East of Europe committed mass genocides. These are agrarian economies, every person means extra labor force and thus extra tax. The Ottomans did not commit genocide, punishing revolts yes, fighting rebels yes, but not a single genocide. If they did there wouldn’t be anyone other than Muslims left in the area between Turkey and Austria since the Ottomans controlled the area for over 400 years. In fact, they didn’t even push their culture or religion. None of the former Ottoman colonies lost their language, and only a couple of minorities converted with their own will. There was definitely some pogroms in Bulgaria in 1876, but it is questionable who were the victims since at the time about 50% of Bulgaria were Turks (what is the percentage now?). Janissaries were not forcefully taken without any planning or consideration, it was basically a draft system with a limited range, and for the most part of the Ottoman history, Muslims were also allowed to join Janissary ranks. Not every Christian family had to provide a boy and not every Janissary was forced to convert. Boys did not forget where they came from and many provided services to their land when/if they rose in ranks.

    You don’t know anything, but it is normal given your resources are folk tales and songs.

    • Replies: @RI
  134. @HEREDOT

    A lot of trolls here are marketing this like real.

    Anonymous doesn’t know that the internet is more reliable than the source of his information which consists of the voices in his otherwise empty skull.

  135. Lo says:
    @RI

    You’re wrong. Armenians were not suffering anything for the good part of 1000 years, and there is no sign there were any issues between Armenians and others in Anatolia. As late as 1805, Napoleon’s ambassador General Sebastiani wrote to the emperor in a report that as far as Armenians are considered “there is no hope (that they could be used against the Ottomans -Lo) Turks trust them immensely and let them manage their accounts and Armenians are content.” If Europeans and Russia did not encourage Armenian youth to arm up and fight against the Ottomans, they would be just fine as they have been in the previous 800 years.

    As a matter of historical fact, Armenians were suffering at the hands of Romans (Eastern Orthodox) due to their denomination, and they supported Turks against Eastern Romans since Turks weren’t interested in massacring Armenians for religious reasons.

    • Replies: @RI
  136. Excellent, info packed article. Author is credible and knowledgeable. Glad to have re-read it, and recommend it to everyone. Adding substantially to its credibility are the risibly weak arguments of the detractors and deniers. I intend to refer back to this superb piece and its fine references often.

    • Replies: @Lo
  137. RI says:
    @Lo

    They and their languages and cultures survived not because of your benevolence, but because of their relentless and enduring fight. I have spent there enough time during the war in the 90s and know what I have seen there, what they went trough and came out victorious. I have seen the Skull Tower, a tower of skulls of the local Christians who did not want to submit to the rule of Turkish invaders , The monstrous legacy of your rule there.
    A draft system of taking Christian boys no older than six years from their mothers’ hands by force? How many of them survived? Were those boys after that Serbians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians? Or they became Turks? Oh, yes, some of them remembered where they came from and they turned against you with formidable force. Do you know who was Indje, the famous Janissary commander who went with all his army against the Turks to fight for Christians?
    The Janissary army was the bigest Ottoman army (Ottoman archives) for centuries, so it was massive and consistent kidnapping. Blood tax, this is the official name for this “draft” from Ottoman archives. Deliberate and planned depleting the native populations of their children and their future.
    And this was not a genocide? What was then?

    • Replies: @Lo
  138. RI says:
    @Lo

    Are you deliberately lying or you are just ignorant?
    Armenians were suffering at the hands of Eastern Orthodox Romans? How come so many Armenians were emperors in Eastern Roman Empire then?The names of Emperors Roman Lakapin, Vassilius I Makedon, Yoan Cimiski, Leo V Armenian, Philipik Vardan who were Armenians come of the top my head. Orthodox Eastern Empire did not distinguish, nor oppress anyone on the ground of ethnicity.

    Just to make it clear, I am not Armenian, nor of any of these people, but you look to be a Turk.

    • Replies: @Lo
  139. Seraphim says:
    @j2

    There is abundant information on line about the shenanigans of Parvus. For example:

    Tony Cliff, “Trotsky: Towards October 1879-1917”, Bookmarks, London 1989. Part 6: “Trotsky and Parvus: The inception of the theory of permanent revolution”
    @’Marxists Internet Archive’ https://www.marxists.org/index.htm

    “Alexander Helphand-Parvus–Russian Revolutionary and German Patriot”, by Heinz Schurer, in
    ‘The Russian Review’ ,Vol. 18, No. 4 (Oct., 1959), pp. 313-331
    @https://www.jstor.org/journal/russianreview?refreqid=excelsior%3Ad3ed9b7128daa435ae4a1772ee4a1f91
    Parvus drew the plan for the revolution since 1904 and he participated in the 1905 revolution. At the time Lenin rejected it. “The story of the Russian Revolution is the story of the conversion of Lenin to the Parvus-Trotsky line in 1917, when it had to be forced on the Bolsheviks against the strongest possible opposition. If any man can be called the intellectual begetter of the October Revolution as it actually happened, this man is Parvus. In 1915 Trotsky, referring to his views on the character of the coming Russian Revolution, had the fairness to say: ‘Even now I see less reason than ever to renounce that diagnosis and prognosis the lion’s share of which was contributed by Parvus”.
    Parvus fled to Turkey and in 1914 became the most active propagandist of the German cause in Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania. And of course we know that it was him who convinced the German Government to send Lenin to Russia. The Kerensky Provisional Government bluntly accused Parvus and Lenin to be German agents, Parvus transmitting money to Lenin.

    Fritz Fischer in his “Germany’s Aims In The First World War”, has a full chapter about Germany’s ‘Promotion of Revolution(s)” (social, national, islamic) in enemy’s countries, where he expands on the role played by Helphand.

  140. Lo says:
    @RI

    Who claimed it was my benevolence or the Turks were benevolent lol? Try reading some actual history books instead of books, nothing I said is some secret information. I never said Turks didn’t kill Armenians or others. Stop coming up with straw man arguments. Now, back to the topic, what war during the 90s? What about Skull Tower, a few hundreds of skulls, so what? Do you think Turks are the only ones who killed rebelling subjects? Now getting into lies one by one.

    A draft system of taking Christian boys no older than six years from their mothers’ hands by force?

    Lol, what a lie. Most boys were taken when they were teens, kids younger than 6 were never selected. You think the Ottomans fed an army of nannies to feed babies lol. What a stupid lie. The average recruit was almost high school age.

    Were those boys after that Serbians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians? Or they became Turks?

    They definitely didn’t become Turks as the Ottomans identity was religion based and didn’t require anyone to be Turk to rise in ranks. You’re unaware of any of this because your mind is shaped by 19th-century nationalist ideas. People, before the 19th century, didn’t care much about whether they were Turkish or Greek. They were not even forced to convert, but if they wanted to rise in ranks they’d convert (probably often just verbally).

    Do you know who was Indje, the famous Janissary commander who went with all his army against the Turks to fight for Christians?

    No, I didn’t. So what? All empires had rebels who wanted to rule on their own. It doesn’t mean anything. It appears he was a Bulgarian rebel, so what? Fun fact: Bulgarians are Slavicized Turks.

    The Janissary army was the bigest Ottoman army (Ottoman archives) for centuries, so it was massive and consistent kidnapping.

    No. It was a small elite unit specifically selected from Christians to protect the Sultan when it was formed. The main battle force of the Ottoman army was never Janissaries. It eventually got larger (but still small relatively), but only after Muslims were also allowed to enroll. In other word, all you know about Janissaries are old wive’s tales. Moreover, they were mostly inefficient troublemakers from as early as 15th century, much like Russian Strelitsky.

    And this was not a genocide? What was then?

    It was not genocide. It was upward mobility opportunity for many poor villagers. You are repeating nationalist 19th-century tales. Not historical facts. Most of the Ottoman hatred comes from 19th-century nationalist propaganda. You are confusing them for British or French. They were not a modern European empire, they didn’t consider themselves to be Turks, and many Turks were also massacred by the Ottoman government. You have no idea. Do you think millions of Turks moved to Balkans willingly? All states crush rebellions, the fact that Ottomans crushed rebelling Bulgars or Serbians doesn’t mean it was done due to some Turkish nationalist cause. They crushed rebelling Turks as well. Most Pashas were not ethnic Turks, many Sultans didn’t have Turkish mothers. It was not some race aware empire that ignorant nationalists like you assume it was.

    Look it is okay if you want to hate the Ottomans, but at least first study and learn so you don’t make a fool of yourself as you do now.

  141. Lo says:
    @Jacques Sheete

    Don’t be a child, I am just joking about the age. I am old myself. Siding with a view just because you’re personally offended by someone is not the Catholic way to live in this world.

    __|__
    …|
    …|

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  142. Lo says:
    @RI

    Lol so what? Romans didn’t care about race, neither did Ottomans. The fights were mostly due to religious differences. Here is another one for you, Romans themselves preferred Turks over Catholics, because of looting of Constantinople by the Crusaders and the following Latin Kingdom. Problem with Armenians was also due to religion as Armenians are not Orthodox Christians. Romans didn’t distinguish based on ethnicity, neither did Ottomans. Which is why so many of the highest ranks were filled by Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, and others. You come up with arguments that deny your own arguments against Ottomans.

  143. Seraphim says:
    @Lo

    Lo and behold! Lo is Turk.

    • Replies: @Lo
  144. Lo says:
    @Seraphim

    Lol this is getting tedious. I have already been a former Soviet (because I said Russia will not be a superpower), Jewish (I have no idea why, this happens a lot, I started to sympathize with Jews), Chinese (because I said a couple of positive things about the Chinese), gun-toting American (because I criticized Chinese), Muslim (because I know some details of Islam), and self-worshipping modern secular (because I said I don’t follow any religions), now I am Turkish (because I know a few things and read a few books about the Ottoman history). If you wish add Black and Jewish as well. It doesn’t change the fact that you haven’t denied any one of the facts I presented.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  145. Anon[337] • Disclaimer says:

    The Turks should be removed from Anatolia by any means necessary, which is the same spirit by which they took it. Within the next 200 year period at most, they will be.

  146. the blood of Abel cries up to heaven, to this day and for all of eternity. an observant intellectual said, there are only two races of people in the world, those who persecute and those who are persecuted, those who kill and those who are killed. the children of Abel and those of Cain.

  147. @Lo

    Don’t be a child, I am just joking about the age.

    That was easy to deduce since all of your comments have been jokes.

    Now, will you explain why you think that asking for some decent references is asking for a “well-researched article with citations at the end?” FYI, I wasn’t requesting something you’re obviously not capable of (a well-researched article ), merely something anyone should be able to handle such as three or four decent, specific, sources.

    Siding with a view just because you’re personally offended by someone is not the Catholic way to live in this world.

    Possibly true, but assuming that I’m concerned about living in a Catholic way, (which means nothing to me), making illogical deductions is not the Catholic way to live in this world either. Here, read this again. I’ll make it bold so you don’t miss it.

    Adding substantially to its credibility are the risibly weak arguments, [and, let me add, the visible hostility] of the detractors and deniers.

    And speaking of childish, go back and read the juvenile trash you’ve written here, such as the many snide remarks you’ve made to RI. Your credibility with me is less than zero, so do yourself a favor and stick to the subject while keeping your doltish child’s play to yourself. You’re pretty lousy at it anyway.

    PS: You may want to practice your approach since I doubt that you’ve convinced anyone to your point of view. Weak, weak, weak.

    • LOL: Lo
    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  148. @Lo

    People, before the 19th century, didn’t care much about whether they were Turkish or Greek.

    Duh.

    Do you really think you’re being clever with that one? The Greeks, Macedonians, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and some Albanians I know of may not have cared much about being Greek or whatever, per se, but many sure as hell had a problem with serving the Ottoman Empire. Many fled to the mountains and resisted or avoided their rule in every way possible, in fact. And obviously for good reason.

  149. @Jacques Sheete

    And speaking of Catholic, perhaps Lo could tell us all about the Coptic Catholics and the “operations” they performed on young males so they could be marketed as slaves to the Ottomans.

    Hint: We’re not talking mere foreskin mutilation.

  150. RI says:
    @Lo

    All your arguments boil down to: “we built skull towers, so what?”,we killed them, so what?”, “we killed others, too, so what?”, “we killed many Turks, too, so what?” , “so, what?, “so, what?”

    “So, what” just confirmes that Ottoman Turks were monstrous savage invaders, incapabale of distinguishing between good and bad, and that have not changed to these days. You also confirmed that you do not need Jews or anyone else to teach you this, you already have it in yourselves. You performed genocide on White Christian people for centuries, you halted their glorious European civilizations and you approve of this. This is the point I am taking from your comments, keep writing, so, all can understand, what I understood.

    • Replies: @Lo
  151. @Lo

    Try reading some actual history books instead of books…

    ???

    PS: I’ve fugured out why you continue to be so vague. “History books?” Hehehehe! If you revealed the comic books you’ve read, few of us could stop laughing. At least you have enough sense to be embarrassed about revealing your “sources.”

  152. Wally says:
    @romar

    – What is the source of your statements?

    – Morgenthau? LOL What is the source of his claim?

    So then, if you are correct, they would have been placed into known mass graves, yet we see no such mass graves.

    – ‘1.5M people killed, but no human remains’ is like saying that the population of either of these US cities just disappeared:

    Philadelphia: 1,576,596
    San Antonio: 1,565,929
    San Diego: 1,453,775
    Dallas: 1,379,735

    http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/

    Let me know when you have something believable.

  153. Wally says:
    @RI

    said:
    ” culminating in mass genocide of … Armenians in 1915. Ninety percent of the songs, tales, scripts, books, and folklor of these people is about that Turkish genocide and their relentless fighting agains it. Ottoman empire was the Antichrist to them. And it was.”

    Except that you have provided no proof, only silly little claims.

    What? We’re supposed to believe your mythologies in the form of “songs & folklore”?

    You’re talking about a form of religious lunacy, not forensic science.

    Imagine trying that in court.

  154. RI says:

    I don’t have to imagine. The Armenian atrocities have been tryed in court, the court of the Turkish Republic after the WWI. Genocide was denied, mass atrocities admitted, some perpetrators shot.
    It has been tried in Intarnational Court, too. You know the verdict.

  155. Lo says:
    @RI

    Goodness, you are so ignorant. I responded about every one of your false claims above. If you have any corrections or objections, they are all there. Weak.

  156. @Wally

    What? We’re supposed to believe your mythologies in the form of “songs & folklore”?

    Why not? “Believing” is typical, as well, of most ‘Merkins, in fact, and especially the tRumpettes and Hillaryenas who believe in sappy politicians and their promises too.

  157. anonymous[300] • Disclaimer says:

    The actual, explicit killing orders by Talaat Pasha have been authenticated beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    They have been cross-referenced with material from the Turkish archives.

    See this book by a Turkish historian:

    https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Orders-Telegrams-Armenian-Genocide/dp/3319697862

    The Turks also massacred Armenians in 1894-97 and in 1909.

    Turkey’s denials are truly pathetic.

    • Replies: @HEREDOT
    , @HEREDOT
  158. @Wally

    So, according to you, who’s enraged by the fact that “witchcraft was accepted as common knowledge by the best minds for thousands of years” , but for some reason not requiring forensic evidence to support the estimated number of victims of this “atrocity”, the genocide of Christians in the Ottoman Empire in 19th – early 20th centuries is a lie, because there’s not enough forensic evidence to the estimated numbers of killed Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians – who didn’t bother to take pictures, mark the places of their mass-murders, and invite impartial witnesses to document their slaughter in cities, villages, and in the wilderness – all scattered across the thousands of square miles large territory, and in the span of many years.

    • Replies: @Wally
  159. @TKK

    @lo you portend to speak with authority, but it is evident that you are either a Turk denialist or a Ziotroll…either way you have a strong denialist agenda but you do not reveal your motivations. The eyewitness accounts of the Genocide are myriad with the Euphrates overflowing with corpses and skeletons. your personal opinion counts for absolutely nothing.

  160. @TKK

    @lo you portend to speak with authority, but it is evident that you are either a Turk denialist or a Ziotroll…either way you have a strong denialist agenda but you do not reveal your motivations. The eyewitness accounts of the Genocide are myriad with the Euphrates overflowing with corpses and skeletons. your personal opinion counts for absolutely nothing.

    • Replies: @Lo
  161. HEREDOT says:
    @anonymous

    the former leftist who has problems with national state and nation consciousness.
    so far you can guess who would take someone who says “I’m ashamed of my turkishness” seriously.

  162. HEREDOT says:
    @anonymous

    Also the terrorist fethullah smiley has written articles in the party newspaper your reference sucks man

  163. Wally says:
    @AB_Anonymous

    LOL
    You’re contradicting the common narrative that says entire known Armenian villages were murdered en masse at what would necessarily have been easily excavated locations.

    Yep, keeping lies straight is always a problem for liars.

    Given your absurd argument, anyone could make any outrageous claim they felt served their special interests and demand that it be accepted.
    I suggest that such claims are particularly problematic when they claim that 1,500,000 people were murdered and anything approaching that number of necessary human remains are nowhere to be seen.

    “Genociders” in court:

    ‘Your honor, we know that entire Armenian villages were killed at so & so, but well, we have no proof and can’t show you the human remains. I means after all, those clever Turks made them disappear. You must believe us because we are better than the Turks.’

    Howls of laughter break out.

    • Replies: @AB_Anonymous
  164. Lo says:
    @General Koofta

    Still zero actual content. Eye witness accounts lol. Don’t forget the folk tales as well.

  165. @Wally

    Howls of laughter indeed break out from you clownish and sorry attempts to avoid
    straight answers about estimated 450,000–750,000 murdered Greeks, and
    “150,000–300,000” Assyrian (which, regardless of intensity and longevity of your
    laughter, along with Armenian genocide constitute a clear pattern of behavior, even for
    your imaginary court).
    As well as from your attempts to apply standard logic and methods for investigation of
    a homicide in a civilized country to the sanctioned on a government level mass-murder
    of targeted (because of their religious belief) groups of people, where cover-ups of all
    kinds and scales are guaranteed, especially when the ability or desire of the rest of the
    world to verify facts is at its lowest because of an ongoing World War.

    • Replies: @Wally
  166. AaronB says:
    @Jacques Sheete

    Thanks, Jacques.

    I don’t think its a question of “innate” tendencies – in their great days, whites also would have taken responsibility.

    Refusal to take responsibility is a typical symptom of religious decline – religion always emphasizes self-criticism and moral responsibility, so it immunizes you from this human failing.

    Trust me, there is nothing about Jews that makes them immune to this temptation – it is merely Faith in God and the Bible that helps us place the emphasis on self-criticism.

  167. @Seraphim

    I guess people. Some Russians, some ukranians, Georgians, Armenians, poles, Jews and some other nations.

  168. Seraphim says:
    @Lo

    That’s a chameleon.

  169. @Lo

    The Dönmeh narrative on the Armenian genocide was started by the Turkish government as agitprop to deflect blame to another people. All Armenian historians, rightfully so, reject it.

    It was ‘whispered’ to Wayne Madsen when he was in Turkey then he wrote an article that the deniers picked up with glee. He didn’t understand the motive of those he talked with or the overwhelming evidence of what happened.

    I do not blame or hate any Turk or Kurd living today as they and us were not alive then and therefore we are all innocent.

    Turkish objections to the accusations are understandable – they don’t like that stain – and that’s ok as long as they are not today committing such evils themselves. Ultimately we and the Turks will sort this out between ourselves without help from the supremacist West.

    We actually have more in common with the Turks. We love the same land, we eat similar food, we have a shared history. You in the West view us both as less than human. You demonize us whenever you can or treat us like we are your children to be ordered about.

    For those in the West that pass themselves off as ‘experts’ like Bernard Lewis and others that march around telling us what happened: you are vipers, vermin, liars, trying to skew history to your own ends.

    • Replies: @Wally
    , @Talha
  170. Wally says:
    @AB_Anonymous

    More weasel words.

    Because you cannot provide proof for an alleged ‘1,500,000 Armenians’ you want to desperately change the subject to Greeks and Assyrians which is not the subject of this thread.
    Hilarious. Gee, let’s talk about ice hockey too.

    You are alleging a monumental crime which would necessarily leave massive amounts of proof to back it up. So of course I apply standard logic and methods for investigation. So should you.
    Pay attention dumsky, it’s called rules of jurisprudence, they’ve been around long before 1915.

    BTW, one cannot simply “cover-up” / hide the alleged remains of 1,500,000 humans.

    I also remind you that Ottoman Turkey was defeated in WWI, the victors, who had complete access have presented nothing to support the 1.5M claim.

    If the family of the Czar, murdered in 1918 can be found, then certainly numbers at least approaching the alleged 1,500,000 Armenians would a simple task.

    Cheers.

    • Replies: @AB_Anonymous
  171. Wally says:
    @AriusArmenian

    So then why can’t you show us the immense human remains that would necessarily exist?
    Or did the magical Turks just make then disappear?

    If the family of the Czar, murdered in 1918 can be found, verified, displayed; then certainly numbers at least approaching the alleged 1,500,000 Armenians would a simple task.

    Regards.

  172. @Wally

    “… Greeks and Assyrians .. not the subject of this thread”
    Yes they are (unlike the Czar and his family): close timing, same motive, same
    perpetrators, same barbaric methods, same hard to prove count of bodies – that’s
    why they use estimates, btw, not precise numbers. But you do like turn tables…
    I wonder if this habit has to do with you lamenting victims of medieval “witch-
    hunts” in the article dedicated to the extermination of Christians ?
    Anyway,
    Whether you’re really stupid or just pretend of being such is no importance to me.
    For me you’re just a clown enjoying his boorish behavior, either naturally, or in
    order to interrupt the dispute and save his face. Who cares.
    If it’s natural – accept my condolences, but I’m not a member of “Doctors without
    borders”, and even if I were I’d refuse to treat someone like you.
    Now get lost until you get proper help.

    • Replies: @Wally
  173. Anything “Young” (Young Turks, Young France, Young Egypt, Young Germany, Young Etc) were imperial machinations by and for the British Empire’s interests.

    The Ottoman Empire was collapsed by the British-backed Young Turks to make room for the British (and French) Imperial design of the Middle East (Sykes-Picot). Russians were on board initially (Sykes-Picot-Sazonov) but Britain stabbed the Tsar (who was promised the Straits in Turkey) after Russia helped win WW1.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  174. Seraphim says:
    @Hiram of Tyre

    There is something untold about the Constantinople Agreement of 1915: it provided for the internationalization of Jerusalem.
    Immediately after the Bolshevik coup d’etat of 7 November 1917, the new government published the secret agreements (23 November), denouncing them. Russia out, Jerusalem is quickly occupied by the British in December 1917, securing the exclusive mandate for Palestine. We know what happened next.

  175. Wally says:
    @AB_Anonymous

    My, my. You’re doing everything possible to dodge the challenges to your unproven silliness because you simply have no proof of your claims, otherwise you would show this site the proof and all would be settled. Those with proof of such claims do not behave like you’re behaving.
    Plus, you’re becoming increasingly panicked and more than a little creepy. Get a grip.
    Anyway, enough of that.

    – Please present your proof that 1.500,000 Armenians were murdered. Simple.
    Just pretend you’re in a real court of law.
    – Come to think of of it, why wasn’t this claim ever taken to a court?
    – Since it’s claimed that they were murdered en masse at specifically known locations, please show us the huge volume of human remains that necessarily exist. Two guys with a shovel could do the trick.
    – Please explain how that number of “1,500,000” was determined.
    Who made that determination?
    Has that number changed? If so, on what basis?
    – Please explain why the victors of WWI found no such proof.
    – Please tell us how much cash the country of Armenia gets every year for making such claims.
    How many are employed in such endeavors
    – Again, please see my comment #8.
    – “Greeks and Assyrians”? OK. Same questions.

    Regards.

  176. @Lo

    Hagia Sophia was a mosque before it was a museum.

    Would Muslims accept us turning their mosques into museums? After all, they’re not being turned into churches.

    • Replies: @Lo
  177. Talha says:
    @AriusArmenian

    I do not blame or hate any Turk or Kurd living today as they and us were not alive then and therefore we are all innocent.

    Excellent point. Not to mention, in Operation Nemesis, those Armenian assassins were pretty handy in eliminating many of the most important architects of the genocide. Honestly, a great case study in how one goes about avenging crimes against humanity while keeping clear of killing innocents.

    We actually have more in common with the Turks. We love the same land, we eat similar food, we have a shared history.

    One of the best and hopeful comments I’ve read in a long time. Here’s to hoping for good and positive future relations between Armenia and Turkey.

    You guys are even similar genetically.

    And Kangals, do you guys also breed those huge shepherding dogs?

    Peace.

  178. Lo says:
    @RadicalCenter

    No one converts temples in modern times. Previously everyone did. Yes, there are plenty of mosques turned into churches in both Spain and Eastern Europe.

  179. Anonymous[351] • Disclaimer says:

    One of the more authoritative websites on the Armenian Genocide is this website based in Washington, DC:

    https://www.armenian-genocide.org/

    • Replies: @Wally
  180. Wally says:
    @Anonymous

    Help me out.

    I see nothing there other than a few photos of a few people from who knows where, who knows when.
    Since it’s claimed that entire villages were emptied and all residents murdered in claimed centralized locations we should be able to excavate the alleged sites and see huge human remains. Yet we see nothing of the sort.

    I see an alleged timeline which anyone could make, it’s not proof, only a set of unsupported allegations.

    I see “resources” which is certainly not proof, just more people reciting the same unproven story.

    In short, I see nothing which proves the alleged murder of 1,500,000 Armenians.

    Please point out such proof if I missed it.

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  181. @Wally

    Have you ever wondered if the Turkish government would allow such excavations ever take place? You think any team can turn up and start digging without permission of the Turkish authorities? While they have everything to lose if actually something is found?

    • Replies: @Lo
    , @Wally
  182. Lo says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    Actually, Ottoman archives are fully open to any researcher. Armenians refuse to open their archives. Odd isn’t it? Turkey offered to establish a common research group consisting of Turkish and Armenian researchers to investigate claims some years back. Armenians rejected, on the basis that genocide claim should first be accepted before the investigation commission is established. You’d think they’d jump on the offer, no?

    • Replies: @Franklin Ryckaert
  183. @Lo

    This is indeed very suspicious of those Armenians. I will now reserve judgement about this whole matter.

  184. Wally says:
    @Franklin Ryckaert

    A logical question, but a bit upside down.

    – Is there any proof that the Armenians ever called for excavations?
    Surely there would be records of excavation requests.

    – Is there any proof that the Turks have ever refused to allow requested excavations?
    Surely there would be records of excavation request refusals.

    – Were there any requests by or through international organizations like The League of Nations or the later UN for excavations?

    – And as I said, Turkey was defeated in WWI, the victors could easily have done any excavations they wanted.

    Regards.

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